Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Antigen on June 27, 2006, 06:05:00 PM
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Hey folks,
My buddy Three Springs Waygookin has been asking about Hitler Youth influence on the Program. I knew there was some chat about that somewhere around here awhile back. Anybody remember that?
Here's the x-post:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =52&Sort=D (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=16115&forum=52&Sort=D)We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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Wow thats hilarious. I just cant stop laughing.
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I watched Arts house a lot (every weekend during the beach football games) during my last few years (early 80's) and I was never told to stay out of anything - just my own sense of common courtesy of not going into the bedrooms, etc. - but the the rest of the place was open to me.
I felt free to peruse Arts library at will, and did. The only Hitler related book I remember was "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" or somthing to that effect (read that at home long before I went to the Seed), not a collection of stuff.
G
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Eudora...Here you go again stir stir stir that pot & see what else you can come up with.
:silly:
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Have to agree with Johnny G.
I spent a lot of time in Art's house too, and the books were mysteries, thrillers, and books about sailing - nothing esoteric.
I just read Mya Szalavitz' book too, and while I think she has some great first person accounts from Straight and other treatment centers, I don't think her Seed stuff is entirely accurate.
Obviously, Art copied a lot of the Seed's format from AA, which in turn copied from the Oxford Group and Frank Buchman's Moral Rearmament group (how come no one is interested in this? - this is the real origin of all of this stuff). Art did say he had worked at Bellvue, in NY, a notorious asylum. I never heard of any Synanon connection unless Bellvue was experimenting with these techniques.
Hitler Youth is kind of silly. Art was a veteran and fought the Nazis..."Art's Army" was meant to be a wholesome, anti-counterculture group and in that way reflected the ideals of the pre-Nazi german youth movement (Boy Scouts, similar).
So, look elsewhere. Look to the creepy Frank Buchanan, for Christ's sake!
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Hmm yea I dont recall anything that I could associate with the Nazi regime.
Where Nazi Germany was (understatement) intolerant of other races Jews Negros etc I remember my time at the seed as being very non denominational and such that we embraced all races and creeds as brothers and equals.
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On 2006-07-03 04:11:00, Seth wrote:
Where Nazi Germany was (understatement) intolerant of other races Jews Negros etc I remember my time at the seed as being very non denominational and such that we embraced all races and creeds as brothers and equals.
Well, things changed. I think the only things Art and my dad had in common were atheism and a gift for story telling. But tolerance? Aw, come on! It was Art's way and view or no way at all. Homo Superior... yeah... right...A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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Then you sound like you could be Art's kid. If the apple dosn't fall far from the tree. Actually I think it might have hit you on the head... and I think it was a very heavy apple...
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art wasnt an aethiest.
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On 2006-07-03 17:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"art wasnt an aethiest. "
:rofl:
It ain't necicarily so
It ain't necicarily so
The things that you're lible
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so
Well Jonah he lived in a whale
Jonah he lived in a whale
He made his home in that fishe's abdomen
Well Jonah he lived in a whale
It ain't necicarily so
It ain't necicarily so
The things that you're lible
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so
When we are pleading with foreign governments to stop the flow of cocaine, it is the height of hypocrisy for the US to export tobacco. Years from now, our nation will look back on this application of free trade policy and find it scandalous.
1989 testimony before the US Trade Representative,September 1989
--Surgeon General, Everett Koop
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what does this response mean?
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On 2006-07-04 09:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"what does this response mean? "
She was laughing hysterically at the assertion that Art wasn't an atheist.
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On 2006-07-03 17:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"art wasnt an aethiest. "
Wasn't or Isn't.
Then or now? There is a big difference. And how come you know so much anyway?
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probably because i've spent time around him. he believes in god. not any of the religions. but does believe in a surpreme being. not that i think this matters. i was just correcting the assertion that he's an aethiest. that would be in accurate. he wasnt an aethiest, and up till the last couple years wasnt. beyond that i couldnt say because i havent spoken with him in the last few years, but i doubt he changed.
also he would have told someone that being an aethiest isnt a good thing. he believed (believes?) that you should believe in a higher power, surpreme being, god etc.
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Eudora is quoting lyric from a song written by a pair of the greatest songwriters who ever lived. George and Ira Gershwyn. The song is from a play called Porgy and Bess.
It is a pretty long stretch to claim that anyone belives literally in the lyric of a song which they sing.
In other words. If I sing "Sweet Home Alabama" does mean that I believe that I was born in Alabama?
Sorry. It just ain't necessarily so. :smile:
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I really feel bad for the guy who left his heart in San Francisco. That really must hurt. :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2006-07-05 10:19 ]
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probably because i've spent time around him. he believes in god. not any of the religions. but does believe in a surpreme being. not that i think this matters. i was just correcting the assertion that he's an aethiest. that would be in accurate. he wasnt an aethiest, and up till the last couple years wasnt. beyond that i couldnt say because i havent spoken with him in the last few years, but i doubt he changed.
also he would have told someone that being an aethiest isnt a good thing. he believed (believes?) that you should believe in a higher power, surpreme being, god etc.
Well, he was dogmatically committed to that ideal now wasn't he, seeing as how the 'first step' was to turn yourself over to a higher power.
But WHY would he believe not believing in a higher power was bad? I don't, and I feel pretty darn good. On what basis is it BAD?
And what basis does one arrive at believing in "god" but not "religion". Just what evidence does he base his belief on? what concept? Does this person just pick and choose the concepts that make comport to their own version of how the universe should be?
Hint: I already know that answer.
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Hmm yea I dont recall anything that I could associate with the Nazi regime.
Where Nazi Germany was (understatement) intolerant of other races Jews Negros etc I remember my time at the seed as being very non denominational and such that we embraced all races and creeds as brothers and equals.
The whole Nazi thing came up from someone 'on the inside' several years ago claimed art had a fascination with "hitler youth", not nazism.
Remember, the hitler youth was an organization set up to capture the imagination of the children so they could go on and spread a specific dogmatism thruout society.
Anyone who doesn't understand what appeal that would have to Art is blowing smoke. I haven't heard one person accuse him of racism, but it is a little funny that he dressed Robert Chung up as a limo driver and had him drive him around.
I personally see no evidence for Art being racist. But was he interested in the hitler youth program of the Nazi's? I have no personal knowledge, nor do I have any reason to doubt the person who told me.
BTW, I read Mein Kampf as a kid and I am anything but a racist. I just wanted to see what made them tic.
That Art may have been interested in the Hitler Youth movement is very believable, but not for the same ideology of the Nazi's.
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i would think most people pick and choose how they view the universe. and exactly how much evidence is there for our beliefs. most of what we think has either been taught to us, or we develope as our opinion but not really on a whole lot of hard evidence.
and i dont think its exactly an unusual idea to believe in god, but not follow a specific relegion or believe in a specific relegions teachings. i actually think thats more limiting then just a straight belief in god. churchs wish to maintain their power. in a lot of cases i think god actually becomes secondary to following the churchs teachings. everything of course is done in the name of god, but is it really what god wants? (assuming you believe in god).
and i dont know why 'not believing" was considered bad exactly. generally just they wanted you to have faith in something. and i can undertand that a little, but i dont find it neccessary either. no one was really ever able to tell me exactly why its bad. which i think is somewhat reflective of that fact that most seed kids just parrotted what was said to them. since they didnt need to deal with too many people who dont at least believe in god, they didnt have much argument for one who does, just a sort of "stop it, that can be good, believe in soemthing please' and i never had any kind of substantial discussion with art over it. just enough to know he'd encourage someone also to believe.
now oddly enough (or maybe odd to some) someone on staff would hve reacted far more angrily to this problem "what you dont believe!!!!!!!" whereas art would have been more likely to simply talk with you about it.
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and i dont think its exactly an unusual idea to believe in god, but not follow a specific relegion or believe in a specific relegions teachings..
I don't think it is 'unusual' either. But please consider what I am about to write.
"god" is an incoherent concept, a supernatural being beyond nature. If something is beyond nature, it is not identifiable with natural methodology, your senses, or any other system that exists in nature. Christian philosophers thruout the last 2000 years have conceded that you can't "know" what god is thru naturalistic means.
Christians, muslims, and others claim they have god's 'word' in a book, and this is how they arrive at information about god.
So my question is, without "religion", how they hell can you conceptualize anything that is supernatural, ie: beyond nature? How can you interact with this immaterial 'thing', and how do you arrive at any information about God?
My opinion is, people who claim to believe in god, but don't subscribe to religion, are blowing smoke. If you talk to them about their basic understand of morality and the universe, and then afterwards talk to them about god, god will dovetail with these closely held concepts of theirs.
In other words, it is THEM who create a god in their own image. I find this, while more palatable then those christians and other theists who subscribe to some cruel dogma, much more hypocritical and unfounded than someone who believes their religion on a foundational basis.
GREGFL: once again, forgot to log in.
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... Art copied a lot of the Seed's format from AA, which in turn copied from the Oxford Group and Frank Buchman's Moral Rearmament group (how come no one is interested in this? - this is the real origin of all of this stuff). Art did say he had worked at Bellvue, in NY, a notorious asylum. I never heard of any Synanon connection unless Bellvue was experimenting with these techniques.
OK...I'm interested...please...elaborate, if you would...
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I just sold some stepper a book by Emmett Fox not too long ago. Google the name.
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He was an influential religious author of some kind, and had some kind of an influence over the cult in the early days of AA. But theres like 1000 websites about him. Can't you just cut to the chase for me ?? What's his connection to the Oxford Group and Buchman and how do they connect to the Seed and $tr8 ?? And what is the Oxford group and who is Frank Buchman anyway ?? Where am I ?? and what the Fuck is goin' on ??
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Well, here's a good example:
An account set forth in "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers" tells of the influence of Emmet Fox and his classic work, "Sermon on the Mount." An AA old-timer recollected: "The first thing he (Dr. Bob) did was to get Emmet Fox?s ?Sermon on the Mount?. Once when I was working on a woman in Cleveland, I called and asked him what to do for someone who is going into DT?s. He told me to give her the medication and he said, ?When she comes out of it and she decides she wants to be a different woman, get her Drummond?s ?The Greatest Thing in the World.? Tell her to read it through every day for thirty days and she?ll be a different woman.? Those were the three main books at the time; that and ?The Upper Room? and ?The Sermon on the Mount.?"
http://www.midlandaa.org/AAhistory/EmmettFox.html (http://www.midlandaa.org/AAhistory/EmmettFox.html)
It amazes me, too, that anybody who claims to know anything at all about the stepcult could possibly choke out the words to form the lie that it's not a religion. It's a religion. Not even a good old one w/ some provable merit, like millenia of successful existence or something. It's just one of the the wackier cults going who's members not only routinely wash out personally, but they wear it as a badge of honor. I was well familiar with the philosophy before I ever knew these names because my grandfather, Elija Haines Hilliar (uh, EHH to you, friend!) was a devout follower; i.e. professional alcoholic.
Like any other religion, it's primarily a social club. The very well received get to bask in the glory and get all the good connects from other well recieved, very pious sounding elite members while the Kleine Leute (little people) scramble and strive to attain that holy reverent level of piety so that they too can be ambassadors and live in million dollar mansions, entertaining vips and demolishing and rebuilding whole home towns and neighborhoods on a whim. And the dumb fuckers seem to go on and on and on forever believing that they'll get there, eventually, if they just eat just a little bit more shit jus a little more, really, we can do it, fakeittillyamakeit.... Gaghhhh!
Guest, I think ppl make a logical error in trying to define religion when they try and define something that is outside of nature. No such thing. By the very definition of the word, Nature, it's all inclusive. The trouble people have with it is that there are parts of it, huge expanses really, that we can neither understand nor master, maybe can't even perceive. So we invent these invisible God friends to make us feel better because we're scared shitless of this nature that this invisible friend of ours so gracously bestowed upon us....
As de dawg chases his tail....
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WHO THE FUCK CARES WHAT A DRUNK OLD COMEDIAN THINKS ABOUT ANYTHING! He is a child abuser simple as that.