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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Thayer Learning Center => Topic started by: Cptnemo on April 18, 2005, 01:25:00 AM

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Cptnemo on April 18, 2005, 01:25:00 AM
Last September I made several posts regarding my son at TLC.  My wife and I were then pleased with his progress.  Needless to say, the reaction form the readers of this board was mostly negative.

I cannot comment upon other's situations; the reasons why their parents sent them off to Thayer or their TCL experiences.  My comments only apply to our particular situation.

So, for those who saw my posts, I wanted to pass along an update.

Our son left TLC in the Fall of last year.  He enrolled in a university and was awarded an academic scholarship.  How is he now:

1)  He is completely changed, no drugs, no alcohol no stupidity.

2)  We see him regularly and he is a completely different person.

3)  He both dislikes TLC and at the same time gives them credit for his transformation.  He refers to almost everyone there as a "dick".  He also said that if he had a son or daughter who acted like he did, he would send them there.

4)  He is a straight "A" student.

5)  He agrees that Thayer is the "end of the road" and for the kids headed for prison if they don't reform.

6)  He has become our dream son.

Thayer uses us as a reference.  We are pleased to tell parents of our experiences and how, in our opinion, TLC saved our son's life.

TLC is not for every kid.  It is for the truly hard cases, like our son was.  Again,  I cannot comment on other's situations and circumstances.  All I can say is that in the one instance we are intimately familiar with, TLC saved our son's life and truly turned him into a young man we are very proud of.

Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: terrified_mother on April 18, 2005, 03:59:00 AM
No sane parent would post an endorsement for this facility in light of the information that is now public.  And any parent who genuinely seeks help for their child could never, seriously, consider this facility after a minimum of research.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2005, 04:21:00 AM
You sound very much like a typical brainwashed parent, eager to hand over the responsiblity over the problem child to someone else.

Quote
6)  He has become our dream son.

Was that the purpose here? A lot of these programs seem to have a covert goal of creating the perfect stepford child. It sounds like all this was more about your dreams and wishes, and less about his well-being (well, you obviously had no regard for his wellbeing if you sent him to a place like Thayer).

Quote
Thayer uses us as a reference. We are pleased to tell parents of our experiences and how, in our opinion, TLC saved our son's life.

Being the puppets of an abusive gulag is not something to be proud of. And that "saved his life" line is getting old.

Quote
TLC is not for every kid.

TLC is not for any kid. No matter how bad they're doing, no matter what kind of trouble they got themselves into. No child deserves to go through that.

Quote
It is for the truly hard cases, like our son was.


Another program buzzline. Programs love saying that their program is for "really tough cases", to justify their cruelty and abuse to the parents, while accepting any kid with any sort of problem, as long as his/her parents can pay.

I hope your son is/will be happy, and that he'll have a good life and come out of all this eventually. I don't see much hope for you.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on April 18, 2005, 10:39:00 AM
curiously..this person says thay posted "several times before" regarding their son's experience, yet their profile says they have "1 post", which I presume is the post above.  Sounds suspicious to me.  Probably a Thayer employee, or the Bundys themselves.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Cptnemo on April 18, 2005, 10:55:00 AM
You will find my prior posts in Sept. 2004.  Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 18, 2005, 11:15:00 AM
Cptnemo, wouldn't it have been simpler to have just had him medically castrated?

That's snide, of course. But I'm trying to make a point. I know a lot of people who went through harsh confrontational tc programs and came out completely changed. There's a whole lot of discussion about that very thing around these forums.

Why is it OK in your mind to mutilate your kid's mind but (I'm sure) you wouldn't dream of snatching off his nads to acquire the same effect?

My parents said all the same things about Straight that you now say about Thayer right up until I ran away just prior to graduation. That was during a hugely public local criminal investigation too.

And my mother still says all the same things, or at least she did last time I talked to her (which has been years)

I am not looking to collect money or punish anyone for their involvement with straight. I'm looking to change this mutherfucking world.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: ExSgtRocha on April 18, 2005, 11:33:00 AM
Apparently this parent does not care how his son was changed.  Brainwashing, torure, physical and mental abuse.  Ya know, just as long as he does what the parent wants.  What a joke.  Don't waste our time.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2005, 02:47:00 PM
if you want your "dream son" then just stick your husbands god damn 4 inch penis in your hairy pussy without a condom, have a baby, and step your god damn parenting up  :roll:
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on April 20, 2005, 02:05:00 PM
Then why does it say this beside your name?

Cptnemo
Welcome Stranger

Joined: 2005-04-17
Posts: 2

If you posted in 2004, but you didnt join until 3 days ago.  I think not!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2005, 02:26:00 PM
I forgot my password and joined again.  Check 09/04. Cptnemo.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2005, 06:10:00 PM
u cant search by dates...how about you give us a name to search by.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Watchaduen on April 20, 2005, 06:22:00 PM
:scared:   Foolish parent wrote:

Our son left TLC in the Fall of last year. He enrolled in a university and was awarded an academic scholarship. How is he now:

1) He is completely changed, no drugs, no alcohol no stupidity.

2) We see him regularly and he is a completely different person.>>>

You do realize that most "stupid" teens mature and do the following WITHOUT a boot camp.
I should know.  My son is getting ready to turn 17 and has already quit most of the stupid antics he was pulling.  I did the stupid thing just like you Mr. Foolish Parent.  I placed my son at a boot camp.  Only difference?  I rescued my son after only 3.5 days after all the horror stories I read about the place my son was at.  You, Mr. Foolish Parent, read all the horror stories and did nothing but leave your poor son there.  Shame on you Foolish Parent.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2005, 11:21:00 PM
As in much of life, the question is one of context and degree.  My son's "stupid antics" were as follows:  1) using drugs; 2) selling drugs; 3) carrying a gun (a MAC 10 which we took from him and deposited in the local lake; 4) he was completely out of control and had blown off all attempts at traditional counseling.

He left for Thayer at 6:00 am on morning.  The police came for him at 2:00 pm that afternoon. I explained that he was out of state and that I would not tell them where.  The left empty handed and not happy to have missed him.

My son's opinion (not mine, his) is that he would be dead by now if not for Thayer.

Again, my context is most likely very different than yours.  So my question is, what would you have done?

Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 03:42:00 AM
Quote
My son's opinion (not mine, his) is that he would be dead by now if not for Thayer.


Looks like they did a good job on him. Shame on you for allowing your son to be turned into a programmed zombie.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on April 21, 2005, 09:53:00 AM
does that make your son a fortune teller now?  Many, many kids "grow" out of the destructive stages of teenhood.  It is not an easy time for anyone.  But brainwashing them is not the way to go.  That is EXACTLY what these schools do, they brainwash you and teach you to have no feelings whatsoever.  Talk to us again when your son is married, with children and has a successful life.  Chances are, he has very little emotion inside him right now because he was brainwashed into the idea that to feel any kind of emotion is wrong.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 10:42:00 AM
Interesting post.  In Sept.'04, it was talk to him when he is not in Thayer and you will find out he was "brainwashed".  I did, and he is fine, the school worked.

Now, it is talk to him when he is married and has kids.  Then I am to learn Thayer did not work.

I can just see your next resposne -- assuming you are not dead from a drug overdose -- and that is I should now wait to speak with him when he has grandchildren!

The problem for you all is that in at least one case Thayer worked, and you just cannot accept that.  You cannot accept that what some teens need is a large dose of discipline and control to grow up.  When your son starts carrying a gun and selling drugs, better send him to Thayer than read about him in the local paper (or see him on national TV).

Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Invertix on April 21, 2005, 01:25:00 PM
Statistically speaking there are going to be people who get 'reformed' by the program. (though I believe a small percentage) The question is can you really abuse someone at present, and use the excuse that it's for their own good. Can you abuse someone against their will at all no matter how good your intentions and motives are?

If we start thinking that the ends justify the means, then you sacrifice a part of your morality. It's not a philosophy that I would ascribe to.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: 001010 on April 21, 2005, 01:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-21 07:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Interesting post.  In Sept.'04, it was talk to him when he is not in Thayer and you will find out he was "brainwashed".  I did, and he is fine, the school worked.



Now, it is talk to him when he is married and has kids.  Then I am to learn Thayer did not work.



I can just see your next resposne -- assuming you are not dead from a drug overdose -- and that is I should now wait to speak with him when he has grandchildren!



The problem for you all is that in at least one case Thayer worked, and you just cannot accept that.  You cannot accept that what some teens need is a large dose of discipline and control to grow up.  When your son starts carrying a gun and selling drugs, better send him to Thayer than read about him in the local paper (or see him on national TV).



Cptnemo"


You bought it all, didn't you?  :cry:

If it's worth it to you to expose you child to cult tactics, abuse, and deny him free will and identity then it is you I feel pity for, and him I feel saddened for. He will question what happened to him later on in life, so don't be surprised, and be ready to apologize.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on April 21, 2005, 03:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-21 07:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Interesting post.  In Sept.'04, it was talk to him when he is not in Thayer and you will find out he was "brainwashed".  I did, and he is fine, the school worked.



Now, it is talk to him when he is married and has kids.  Then I am to learn Thayer did not work.



I can just see your next resposne -- assuming you are not dead from a drug overdose -- and that is I should now wait to speak with him when he has grandchildren!



The problem for you all is that in at least one case Thayer worked, and you just cannot accept that.  You cannot accept that what some teens need is a large dose of discipline and control to grow up.  When your son starts carrying a gun and selling drugs, better send him to Thayer than read about him in the local paper (or see him on national TV).



Cptnemo"


first, I was NOT here in September 04, so get your facts straight.  If I wasn'nt here in 04, I couldn't have said that to you.

secondly, who are you to presume that I do drugs?  that is totally absurd!  I dont recall any my postings getting "personal" like that with YOU and making allegations about YOU, for which I have no basis.  But, then again, we know where the root of that always comes from, when someone is defenseless, they try to turn the tables on the other person and attack THEIR credibility because they know they have NO DEFENSES.

thirdly, your saying they need discipline and control?  why weren't you providing that?

fourth, yes, I did say, talk to me in a few years, because it is is a known fact that the brainwashing those people do come back to haunt you a few years down the road!  Have you even bothered to read any of the posts from the survivors?

fifth, you have still yet to show us these post you made in sep. 04, until then, you are only a few days old to this board, have only a couple of posts, and probably work for or are related to the Bundys!  Yes, we all know how they work.  They send their moles onto this board to try and untarnish the reputation they, themselves have built.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on April 21, 2005, 04:02:00 PM
oh, and presuming that by some slim chance that Thayer does happen to do good for a "few select" children, but is it worth it for the sacrifice that the other children endure?  is it worth having a child die, and many, many others abused and neglected so that say 2 out every 100 do good?

Would you sacrifice one child's safety for another?

Obviously you would or you would not be advocating a place that abuses and neglects children.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2005, 11:30:00 PM
Search for "Cptnemo".  You will find the posts.  Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Watchaduen on April 22, 2005, 12:28:00 AM
He left for Thayer at 6:00 am on morning. The police came for him at 2:00 pm that afternoon. I explained that he was out of state and that I would not tell them where. The left empty handed and not happy to have missed him.

My son's opinion (not mine, his) is that he would be dead by now if not for Thayer.

Again, my context is most likely very different than yours. So my question is, what would you have done?>>>

The biggest question remains?  Why did you become the Judge, Jury and decide the sentence?  Was there something wrong with letting your son suffer the consequences of his actions?  He was carrying a gun around and the police/justice was planning on holding him accountable.  You, Foolish Parent instead paid enormous amounts of money to have him beaten, tortured and enslaved in a cult.  A place that would later take a child's life.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 01:48:00 AM
I am sorry about what happaned to your son.  My context is only about Thayer.  I know nothing of other programs and thus cannot comment.  My son was not treated badly at Thayer and grew from the experience -- a report that it seems no one on this site wants to hear.  Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 03:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-21 22:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I am sorry about what happaned to your son.  My context is only about Thayer.  I know nothing of other programs and thus cannot comment.  My son was not treated badly at Thayer and grew from the experience -- a report that it seems no one on this site wants to hear.  Cptnemo"


It's just hard to believe. Why would your son have been treated so differently from all the other kids? I'm tempted to make some off color jokes about that, but I won't.

I can easily understand a lot of different reasons why your son might not tell you the whole truth about Thayer. And those seems a whole lot more likely than that he actually was treated better than all the rest.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those that torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C.S. Lewis, God In The Dock

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 22, 2005, 03:49:00 PM
Cptnemo, what would have happened if the cops had gotten him? He probably would have spent some time in juvy. Talk about discipline and bullying! It would likely have been traumatic. He might even have been raped (it does happen). And, more than likely, he would have turned himself around.

Or what if he had been shot and spent an extended and painful stretch in hospital and physical rehab? That might have had the same effect.

Or what if he had been hit by a bus? Same thing.

Does that make it a good idea to throw a troubled kid out in front of a bus, hoping for that catharsis that near death and adversity sometimes brings? Talk to Roberto Ramerez parents before you go on about how worthwhile the Program has been to your son. He survived it. Good for him! But that doesn't mean it's anything but a desperate, foolish and very expensive scam.

Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Watchaduen on April 22, 2005, 04:27:00 PM
Honest question, if your son was soooo bad, completely defiant against all adult authority, and next step was prison.  How did Thayer help your son without ever beating or torturing him?  He seen others beaten so he knew it could happen to him?  What made your son get up out of that bed every morning at the crack of dawn to do exercises for a few hours?  A drill instructor screaming in his face?  Why do I doubt that.
In the summer of 2003 the State of Miss. raided Bethel Boys Academy and removed 13 "visibly" abused boys.  These boys did NOT get a choice whether they wanted to leave or not.  Other boys who were being abused wanted to leave, but since there were no current visible signs - no go.  The state takes these boys into custody and their parents are called.  Immediately all the parents come rushing down to Miss.  The boys are to remain in custody until the following Tuesday, when they will testify in George County Youth Court.  One Dad is furious that his son was removed from Bethel.  Now mind you, his son was strangled by a drill instructor and his neck reflects just that (horrible bruising).  No matter, his Dad is mad, his Dad wanted him at Bethel because he needed "help".  His Dad was angry that he had to miss work to get his son and demanded that the state release his child immediately.  I talk to this Dad enroute home with his son (back to the state they live in).  This Dad states his son wasn't really abused and his son hasn't said much.  Hmmmmmm, wonder why?  Move ahead a month and the boy is now living with his Mom.  Dad just wants him sent to another torture chamber.  This boy does have a long list of abuse and torture that he suffered at Bethel Boys Academy.
Could this Dad be the same kind of Dad you are?
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2005, 08:39:00 PM
Your posting was one of the very few intelligent ones I have read.

You pose a very good question.  Just why did my son get up in the morning, excercise for hours, accept the discipline and come out OK.

By the way, he tells me he was never abused.  Yelled at, made to excercies for hours, not allowed to speak unless spoken to...yes that was part of his program.  But he was never struck or hit in any manner.

But back to your question, why did Thayer turn him around?  I really can't say nor can he.  For the first 3 months he "held his breath" hoping that Mom & Dad would come for him.

Slowly he turned around.  The petulant teen-ager become more reflective and serious.  

There is no brain washing going on at Thayer.  In fact, there is no therapy in the standard sense of the word.  The therapy is excercise and discipline, with a quick connection between actions and consequences.  They did listen to some taped lectures about the lives of famous people, but that was about it.  

Our family is not religious.  They said prayers before meals.  That was about the only religion our son reports.  There was certainly no attempt to convert him to a religion.

Again, I cannot comment on your son's exeriences nor the organization you sent him to.  My only comments regard Thayer, and Thayer alone.

My wife and I speak to our son daily.  We see himm often.  He is doing just fine.  He received an acacemic scholarship to a university and is pulling down straight "A's".

But back to your question, why did it work for him?  In the end, it is all about choices.  I think that during his stay at Thayer he decided that the life he had briefly led -- an armed drug dealer -- was not the life he wanted.  Also, the fact the police showed up hours after he left for Thayer was a strong reality check for him.

What Thayer did is put him in a controlled environment of relentless excercise and strict discipline which allowed this process of maturity to take place.  Why did it work on him and not others?  I just don't know, and I am glad it did.

Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 23, 2005, 01:07:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-04-22 17:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

 Why did it work on him and not others? I just don't know, and I am glad it did.


So fuck the kids who are hurt by it? Answer me. What is the essential difference between the Thayer way of breaking a person down and any of the other methods that I have suggested as comparisons?

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.

--Charles Austin Beard

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 01:28:00 AM
Ginger:  I think you left your program too soon.  Do you think they will take you back?  I will offer a scholarship for you.  Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 23, 2005, 12:22:00 PM
That's your answer? I need a little more brainwashing to bring me in line w/ your way of thinking?  :roll:

You have rights atecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.

John Adams

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2005, 09:07:00 PM
Ginger:  What is your basis for your statements about Thayer?  Where you ever there?  Have you visited it.  Do you have any first hand information?  Interesting questions?  Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: terrified_mother on April 25, 2005, 07:25:00 AM
You state your son left Thayer last fall and received a scholarship to attend university where he is now your dream son.  The problem I have with your statement is unless your alleged son was the incredibly rare gun toting, drug dealing scholar prior to his stay at Thayer your claim cannot, possibly, be true.  The mail order high school program offered at Thayer is issued by American Schools which may be accredited in Illinois but whose credits are not accepted at any college that I know of.
Further, your attacks on the members of this forum make no sense unless you have some sort of profit to make from Thayer's success.  Your presence in this forum makes no sense if, in fact, you were a totally satisfied parent of a successfully turned around son.  Surely, you would have bigger fish to fry and grander dreams to accomplish than defending Thayer.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 25, 2005, 11:42:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-04-23 18:07:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger:  What is your basis for your statements about Thayer?  Where you ever there?  Have you visited it.  Do you have any first hand information?  Interesting questions?  Cptnemo"


What statements? I'm asking questions and you're trying not to answer them. But your answers are very telling despite yourself.

Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on April 25, 2005, 12:18:00 PM
relentless exercise?  relentless exercise is what most likely killed the Reyes boy.  Have you even read about it?  The actual ME report? I have a copy if you are interested.

Relentless exercise?  They fractured my son's ankle the first 5 minutes he was there because he "looked the drill instructor in the eye".  How was my son to know that was forbidden when he had just walked through the doors?  As soon as he walked through the doors, he was approached by several drill instructors who "took him down" and "restrained" him because he looked one of them in the face when they approached him.  In that take down, they fractured his ankle, and although he requested to be seen by a doctor for the ankle, they refused and forced him to exercise in excess of 12 hours a day on that ankle.  Was that warranted?  No, it wasn't.  I didn't send my son there for the same reasons you did.  My son was not into drugs, violence, etc.  Had never been in trouble with the law.  I chose Thayer because he was ADHD and struggled in school and from what the program preached to me was that this would help him academically.

That example up above, is only one of many that my son suffered while there.  We wont even talk about the fact that he was hog-tied to another studen and "dragged through the showers" because he couldnt keep up with the exercise regime.  Well hell, who could on a broken ankle?  So, they broke his ankle, he couldnt keep up in exercise because of this ankle, so we are going to punish him even more?

Get real!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 25, 2005, 07:35:00 PM
The answers to your questions are:

1)  The diploma from the American School was accepted by the 3 universities we applied to.

2)  As to personal attacks, what are your comments on the personal attacks I have received from my posts?  It would be nice for you to rebuke those who have made ugly comments to and about me.  3) The academic (yes, academic, not need based) scholarship is real -- all $11,000 of it.

The problem is clear.  If one person shows that Thayer in fact worked, then you (and the rest of the others) must re-think your position.

As Lewis Carroll said, "Never try to reason a man out of a postion he was not reasoned into."

Most people on this site seem incapable of reading what I have written.  I have no idea if Thayer will work for anyone other than my son.  I just know it worked for him.  And dear friend, that is simply a fact.

I am sorry things did not work out for your son.

Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 25, 2005, 07:43:00 PM
It is too bad you did not read my posts from last Sept. about Thayer.

Thayer, from my own observations and those of my son's -- was absolutely the wrong place for your son.  Thayer is for those teens who are unreachable by any other type of therapy and, if they continue, will soon be in jail or dead.  From what I have read -- but have no personal experience with -- there are many other schools much better suited for your son than Thayer.

Thayer is really the "end of the road", where a literal cliff exists for those who go further.  My son was a criminal and he needed Thayer to turn him around.  They did and my wife and I are happy.

Again, context is everything.  Your son's context was very different than mine.  

Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 25, 2005, 08:48:00 PM
So what you seem to be saying, Nemo, is that it's perfectly ok w/ you if they bust some limbs and even kill some kids, just so long as you get the results that you desire?

So then I have to ask, why didn't you just beat the hell out of him yourself? What, too weak? To scared? Can't stomach it so you pay someone else to do it? Wimp. And don't go whinning about being called bad, bad names. That's NOthing compared to what the staff at Thayer say to these kids.

 

so long as the universe had a beginning, we could suppose it had a creator. But if the universe is completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would neither be created nor destroyed it would simply be. What place, then, for a creator?
--stephen Hawking, English scientist

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 25, 2005, 08:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-25 16:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

They did and my wife and I are happy.


Is your son happy? Does it matter to you? Could he even say so if he wasn't? Would you give a shit? You're a scary dude, Nemo. I really hope you get yours when you're old and feeble and the shoe is on the other foot. I honestly do.

A drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 26, 2005, 01:40:00 PM
Hi Ginger:  The scholarship is still available.  This time I promise the straps will be stronger, you won't be able to chew through...  Fondest Regards, Your Friend Nemo.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 26, 2005, 02:26:00 PM
Yeah, just as I thought. You had to hire someone to rough up your son cause you lack the sack. And now you wish you could punish me for saying so.

It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Cayo Hueso on April 26, 2005, 02:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-25 16:35:00, Anonymous wrote:


The problem is clear.  If one person shows that Thayer in fact worked, then you (and the rest of the others) must re-think your position.

Cptnemo"


I'm not saying that it didn't 'work' (definition meaning that you got the results you wanted).  The more important question to me is HOW does it work and at what price????

The hypothalamus is one of the most important parts of the brain, involved in many kinds of motivation, among other functions.  The hypothalamus controls the "Four F's": 1. fighting;  2. fleeing;  3.feeding; and  4. mating.
-- Psychology professor in neuropsychology intro course

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on April 26, 2005, 03:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-25 16:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"It is too bad you did not read my posts from last Sept. about Thayer.



Thayer, from my own observations and those of my son's -- was absolutely the wrong place for your son.  Thayer is for those teens who are unreachable by any other type of therapy and, if they continue, will soon be in jail or dead.  From what I have read -- but have no personal experience with -- there are many other schools much better suited for your son than Thayer.



Thayer is really the "end of the road", where a literal cliff exists for those who go further.  My son was a criminal and he needed Thayer to turn him around.  They did and my wife and I are happy.



Again, context is everything.  Your son's context was very different than mine.  



Cptnemo"


see...even you say that thayer was not the riht place for my son...but yet, when I contacted "Parent Help" to find a school for my son, they convinced me that Thayer was what he needed.  Little did I know at the time, that Parent Help is owned by the same people that own Thayer.  What is wrong with this picture? They take a kid like I described above and convince us he needs to be in Thayer.  But, as you said, and I have seen for myself, Thayer is not the right environment for a son such as mine who was simply looking for help in the educational system.  So, you don't think it is wrong that Parent Help and Thayer are owned by the same person, and that when I contacted Parent Help to find a school for my son they totally advocated sending him to Thayer?
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 26, 2005, 03:46:00 PM
Please read carefully what I have written.  Each word I use has a specific meaning:

What I said is that Thayer worked for my son.  By "work" I mean he is a prductive, happy and confident adult.  His bad behavior is long gone.

That is all I said.  

I have not said nor am I saying anything in favor of the Bundy's front operations that steer parents to Thayer.  And, I am not supporting any recommendation by anyone that is not appropriate for the situation.  Actually, I have not defended anyone in my posts.

All I have said and am saying is that for the particular problems my son had, Thayer worked, and worked brilliantly.  As for the "price" people speak of, my son is glad I sent him there.  He both can't stand Thayer and belives it saved his life.  

So, please don't read anything into my posts that I have not written -- although that is a very common occurance on this website.

Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 26, 2005, 04:07:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-26 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

As for the "price" people speak of, my son is glad I sent him there.  He both can't stand Thayer and belives it saved his life.  



So, please don't read anything into my posts that I have not written -- although that is a very common occurance on this website.



Cptnemo


If you're the only one to keep your head while everyone else is losing theirs, maybe you just don't know what's going on.

You still haven't explained how the program 'worked'? You don't deny that they use physical abuse. And you don't seem bothered by it either. So I think it's reasonable to assume that you approve.

So... why did you send him off if all he needed was a good ass kicking? Couldn't you do that yourself?

Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die
-- Malachy McCourt

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Cruella on April 26, 2005, 04:38:00 PM
UPDATE:
My family (mom and sister) went to visit my daughter again at Thayer this past weekend.  I have been on campus 3 times since December 2004.  Visits are held on campus.  

We all have seen remarkable changes in my daughter.  She now stands straight and confident.  She regards everyone with respect.  She was a team leader in boot camp.  She now knows that she CAN accomplish many things without a GUY, just as we told her she could.  She is now working hard in her studies.  She's been to the dentist and continues to go on a monthly basis.  They do community service in the community, off campus.  She has a goal to get through high school and attend college.  She plans on continuing with the exercise after Thayer.

We weren't able to help her here at home because she would pull one of her antics on the days that she had counseling appointments.  My daughter has NOT been abused at Thayer.  She understands why she is there but that doesn't mean she likes it.

She's now working toward a weekend visit in July.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Cayo Hueso on April 26, 2005, 04:46:00 PM
You're still not addressing many of the points brought up in this thread.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#96845 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9210&forum=39&start=10#96845)

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#96890 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9210&forum=39&start=10#96890)

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#97238 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9210&forum=39&start=20#97238)

I'm having a hard time with the fact that someone could be so cruel to dismiss a child's death as just an unfortunate occurance.  Its posts like yours that occasionally make me want to just throw my hands up and say FUCK IT.  For you to be aware of what has gone on in that place and then to say you don't care how it works, you're just happy to have yourself a nice, quiet child creature is fucking appalling!   You're OK with kids getting abused as long as the end result meets your needs.   I really don't have a witty comeback for that.  It just scares the living shit out of me.

For twenty years I felt like I couln't really condemn the abusive program I was in because, after all I did get myself into some trouble as a teen.  I unfortunately was surrounded by people who did and still do buy into your way of thinking..."it saved her life, she was on her way to jail, who knows what would have become of her" etc. etc. and I bought into it at least to some degree (probably greater than I'm willing to admit) for a long time.  Give your son time, I don't think he'll have the same view of things as the years pass.  I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 26, 2005, 08:36:00 PM
Your program did not work for you.  I accept that completely.  I am not trying to convince you that it did.  

I need you to define abuse.  A lot of physical excercise and discipline is not abuse for me. No one ever struck my son or tied him up.

What you need to accept is that the Thayer program (it is the ONLY one I have experienc with -- and by your postings it is clear you have no direct experience) worked for my son and for the Cruella's daughter.

What you know about Thayer is at best 2nd hand --probably 8th hand -- by the time you get it.  

I know it is not what you want to hear.  And, reading comprehension is low on this board -- but the fact is the Thayer program is what some kids need.  If you were not blinded by your own unfortunate experiences, perhaps you could accept this.

Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 26, 2005, 09:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-04-26 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

What you need to accept is that the Thayer program (it is the ONLY one I have experienc with -- and by your postings it is clear you have no direct experience) worked for my son and for the Cruella's daughter.


What you should accept (for your kids' sake, not your own) is that the risk benefit ratio is about the same as throwing them off of a high cliff. In fact, the very basic method is about like that.

If you shove someone off a cliff, you show them, in no uncertain terms, that you're fed up and don't particularly care whether they get hurt or not. In most cases, they will get injured, but usually they'll recover (more or less). The trauma of injury and recovery from it will sometimes build character. But, more often, they'll just be injured and, hopefully work around it.

One thing's for sure, though. If they survive and if you ever see them again, they'll damned sure not do whatever it was that so set you off before you shoved them over the cliff. At least, they won't do it in front of you.

Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 26, 2005, 10:07:00 PM
Ginger dear, the question is:  Do you have any 1st hand information regarding Thayer?  Exactly what is the source of your "knowledge"?

I think anyone posting should inform the others of just where their information comes from.

So, Ginger, let us know....

Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 27, 2005, 12:20:00 AM
I have exactly the same firsthand experience w/ the Thayer program as you do, Nemo. Neither you nor I have ever been in that program. Never forced to excercise till past the point of exhaustion. Never tackled for daring to look a sgt in the eye. Never had to wash the shit and puke off of a fellow student to clean him up for his trip to the hospital for declaraion.

http://www.stjoenews-press.com/main.asp ... M=65313.28 (http://www.stjoenews-press.com/main.asp?SectionID=81&SubSectionID=272&ArticleID=63795&TM=65313.28)

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/fortwayne/11396902.htm (http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/fortwayne/11396902.htm)

http://isaccorp.org/thayer/thayerlawsuit.pdf (http://isaccorp.org/thayer/thayerlawsuit.pdf)

http://isaccorp.org/thayer/parentswantclosure.pdf (http://isaccorp.org/thayer/parentswantclosure.pdf)

http://www.showmenews.com/2005/Feb/20050206News011.asp (http://www.showmenews.com/2005/Feb/20050206News011.asp)

http://semissourian.rustcom.net/story/160546.html (http://semissourian.rustcom.net/story/160546.html)

I know what the spinmeisters are saying. I've seen the stock response; "don't believe anything you read in the papers." But guess what? The paper said it would snow here last Sunday and I'll be damned if it didn't snow here last Sunday!

What seems more plausible to you, Nemo? That all these different kids, parents, doctors, law enforcement investigators, journalists, fact checkers and lawyers are all involved in a grand conspiracy to... what, make you look stupid? Or that the people at Thayer are hurting children and lying their asses off to cover it up?

How do YOU explain the "miraculous" turn about in these kids?
 

Faith is believing something you know ain't true.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 27, 2005, 12:54:00 AM
Dear Ginger:  You need remember that no matter how hard you try, how much effort you put into it, you will still never get a better past.

My guess is that whatever program you were in, your "earned" your way in by your behavior.  Now, be a good citizen andtake responsibility for your choices and actions.

Even you, in those quite moments of contimplation, must accept at least some personal responsibility for your life.  While I know that being a victim is fashionable these days, why not go against current fashion and accept responsibility for who you are and what you have become.

Mom and Dad did their part -- now you can do your's -- and become a functioning adult. Trust me, once you are in adulthood, you won't want to go back....

Your Friend, Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 27, 2005, 12:58:00 AM
Wow! Amazing! Not one single phrase or idea that's even remotely related to anything we're talking about. Is that in the manual or something? When you run out of ideas, just cut and paste from the support group? Or do they actually make you memorize this bullshit in seminars?

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Nihilanthic on April 27, 2005, 01:48:00 AM
(http://http://www.ugavine.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/vader.jpg)
 
:grin: Welcome to the dark side, Ginger Warbis.

Come the millennium,

month 12,

in the home of greatest power,

the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: ` on April 27, 2005, 07:04:00 AM
Ginger, you have the funniest anonymous posters following you around these days.  ::heart::


 :rofl:
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on April 27, 2005, 10:46:00 AM
cpt, or whatever your name is.  you need to learn to login in when you post, people don't take anon's very serious around here.  I don't understand why you feel so compelled to "beat up" on ginger for her stating her point of view?  As you already expressed in my son's situation, not every kid is sent there for the righr reason.  YOu have no idea what is in Ginger's past and therefore have no clue as to whether "she belonged there" or not.....

My son most certainly didn't belong there.  My son most certainly didn't deserve to be abused.  I believe the whole point Ginger is making is that is it honestly worth sacrificing many children over?  I don't believe it is.  I believe all children have the equal right of protection, therefore, shools, like Thayer, that knowingly operate under such guidelines should be shut down and not allowed to work with children.

I, like Ginger, cannot even FATHOM how anyone can say a place like Thayer (and many others) is good and should continue on just because "only your child" was not abused. Screw the other children that are being abused, they dont matter?  That is basically what you are saying.  That the children that were abused and/or died, are not worth diddly squat in your eyes.

I am also willing to bet that your child is not of a minority.  Am I correct?

And, when posting, please post under your username, and not as an anon.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Troll Control on April 27, 2005, 11:09:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-04-26 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Your program did not work for you.  I accept that completely.  I am not trying to convince you that it did.  



I need you to define abuse.  A lot of physical excercise and discipline is not abuse for me. No one ever struck my son or tied him up.



What you need to accept is that the Thayer program (it is the ONLY one I have experienc with -- and by your postings it is clear you have no direct experience) worked for my son and for the Cruella's daughter.



What you know about Thayer is at best 2nd hand --probably 8th hand -- by the time you get it.  



I know it is not what you want to hear.  And, reading comprehension is low on this board -- but the fact is the Thayer program is what some kids need.  If you were not blinded by your own unfortunate experiences, perhaps you could accept this.



Cptnemo

"

Empirically speaking, what do you know about what happens in that facility when you're NOT there?

Isn't it true that you know only what you are told by staff or what staff has instructed your kid to tell you?

Isn't it true, then, that exactly EVERYTHING you know about Thayer is, by definition, second-hand or even further removed from the primary source?

One (very obvious) point that you seem not to get is that anyone with experience working or "residing" at these institutions surely DOES get, is that information flow is, by design, tightly constricted at all levels.  

That is, what you hear from staff AND your child is "scripted."  Your child has no real choice but to follow the script, or, when you leave, they will be swiftly educated to the consequences of not doing so.  This is one of the trademarks of BM warehouses.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with your insults about reading comprehension.  I assure you that mine is relatively high, and I cannot claim to understand at what you are driving.  

What I can see clearly though, is that your comprehension of PROGRAM DYNAMICS is very low.  You would do well to educate yourself to "objective reality" and understand you have no empirical data to support what you say (which is the exact argument you use AGAINST others).  

You're both ignorant and arrogant at the same time, which is, unfortunately, far too common in "program parents."

Instead of pointing the finger at Antigen for her program's not "working" for her, maybe you should point the finger at yourself for one, being a lousy parent who did a lousy job with their kid, and two, being dumb enough to believe that some complete strangers are going to "repackage" your kid for you into the "perfect child" you wish for, but are unwilling or unable to help on your own.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on April 27, 2005, 04:53:00 PM
cpt....these are the kind of people you entrusted your son to...and this came straight from the owner!

Quote
On 2005-04-27 12:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Nigger please, you don't know SHIT!-John "Big Dick" Bundy"
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on April 27, 2005, 05:58:00 PM
Capt. Nemo, can you pleae answer the following questions:

WHAT 3 UNIVERSITY'S DID YOUR SON APPLY TO, AND WHERE DID HE END UP GOING?

WHAT WERE THE DATES THAT YOUR SON ATTENDED TLC?

HOW OLD WAS HE AT THAT TIME?

WHAT STATE DO YOU RESIDE IN?

and, if you are so brave to recommend TLC to prospective parents, would you be so brave to reveal your identity on this forum?

I DO NOT WISH TO ATTACK YOU IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.  MAYBE YOU ARE FEELING ATTACKED- YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT WE (PARENTS OF FORMER STUDENTS) ARE OUTRAGED BY THIS SCHOOL BECAUSE ALL OF OUR CHILDREN HAVE BEEN ABUSED, NEGLECTED, OR HAVE SEEN OTHERS BEING ABUSED AND NEGLECTED.  THE CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES HANDS ARE TIED, AND WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT ANY OF THIS- UNTIL FINALLY....
A BOY DIED!!!  It was not an innocent death, and further they (TLC) is still trying to "hide" it.

My last question to you is:
WHEN YOU TALK TO PARENTS INTERESTED IN TLC DO YOU MENTION THAT ALTHOUGH YOUR SON DID WELL, AS IS DOING WELL, THAT THERE ARE SOME CONCERNS WITH OTHER PARENTS, INCLUDING A DEATH THAT HAPPENED?  OR DO YOU AT LEAST SUGGEST THAT THEY DO A "GOOGLE" SEARCH ON TLC AND THE BUNDY'S?  or
WHAT ABOUT SUGGESTING THAT THEY GO TO THE ISAC WEBSITE FOR FURTHER REVIEW OF THE SCHOOL.
HOW ABOUT LETTING THEM KNOW THAT THE BUNDY'S ARE RESIDENTS OF ST. GEORGE UTAH (AT LEAST THEY WERE AS OF A YEAR AGO), AND THAT THEY HAVE (OR HAD) OFFICE SPACE IN THE WWASPS OFFICE IN UTAH.  HOW ABOUT THAT JOHN BUNDY AND ROBERT LICHFIELD ARE LONG STANDING BUDDIES.  
DO YOU ALSO TELL THEM THAT IF THEY WERE REFERRED TO TLC BY PARENT HELP THAT TLC OWNERS ARE ONE IN THE SAME?  DO YOU ALSO TELL THEM THAT IF THEY HAVE ASKED TLC FOR AN ESCORT REFERENCE THAT THEIR SON (ISAAC) IS THE OWNER THEY WILL RECOMMED?
HOW ABOUT JUST GIVING THEM ANY OF THIS INFO.?? DO YOU DO THAT?? (ALONG WITH YOUR GLOWING REVIEW OF COURSE!)

Food for thought... it is only fair that they get the whole picture!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 28, 2005, 11:13:00 PM
Hi, this is Nemo:

Much of what you ask is confidential.  Certainly, from the attacks I have received from people on this website, my identity remains the latin "nemo".

Interesting enough, whenever I speak to a parent I refer them to this website to get the views of those who oppose Thayer.  I think that before a parent makes such a decision, they should consider all sides of the question.

Even more interesting, the reaction of some parents (those who have called me back) is that the vehemence and seeiming irrationality of the attacks results in their viewing much of what they read as the rantings of the psychologically misfit. They see these posts as confirmation of the need for Thayer-like schools.

Some parents on the other hand decide not to send their teens to a boot camp, based upon the posts on this website.

Best Regards, Cptnemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on April 29, 2005, 06:46:00 PM
Capt. Nemo, GRANTED some of the ?? I asked are personal, so I will remove them from the ?? I asked. I do however still have some legitimate ??  that will in no way reveal your (or your son's) idenity, and would further give your claims accountability.  Please answer them:

WHAT 3 UNIVERSITY'S DID YOUR SON APPLY TO, AND WHERE DID HE END UP GOING? this IS an important ?? as the MANY, MANY universities I checked into said that their "diploma" was worthless and unacceptable.Capt. Nemo, can you pleae answer the following questions:

WHAT 3 UNIVERSITY'S DID YOUR SON APPLY TO, AND WHERE DID HE END UP GOING?

WHAT WERE THE DATES THAT YOUR SON ATTENDED TLC?

HOW OLD WAS HE AT THAT TIME?

WHAT STATE DO YOU RESIDE IN?

and, if you are so brave to recommend TLC to prospective parents, would you be so brave to reveal your identity on this forum?

I DO NOT WISH TO ATTACK YOU IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. MAYBE YOU ARE FEELING ATTACKED- YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT WE (PARENTS OF FORMER STUDENTS) ARE OUTRAGED BY THIS SCHOOL BECAUSE ALL OF OUR CHILDREN HAVE BEEN ABUSED, NEGLECTED, OR HAVE SEEN OTHERS BEING ABUSED AND NEGLECTED. THE CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES HANDS ARE TIED, AND WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT ANY OF THIS- UNTIL FINALLY....
A BOY DIED!!! It was not an innocent death, and further they (TLC) is still trying to "hide" it.

My last question to you is:
WHEN YOU TALK TO PARENTS INTERESTED IN TLC DO YOU MENTION THAT ALTHOUGH YOUR SON DID WELL, AS IS DOING WELL, THAT THERE ARE SOME CONCERNS WITH OTHER PARENTS, INCLUDING A DEATH THAT HAPPENED? OR DO YOU AT LEAST SUGGEST THAT THEY DO A "GOOGLE" SEARCH ON TLC AND THE BUNDY'S? or
WHAT ABOUT SUGGESTING THAT THEY GO TO THE ISAC WEBSITE FOR FURTHER REVIEW OF THE SCHOOL.
HOW ABOUT LETTING THEM KNOW THAT THE BUNDY'S ARE RESIDENTS OF ST. GEORGE UTAH (AT LEAST THEY WERE AS OF A YEAR AGO), AND THAT THEY HAVE (OR HAD) OFFICE SPACE IN THE WWASPS OFFICE IN UTAH. HOW ABOUT THAT JOHN BUNDY AND ROBERT LICHFIELD ARE LONG STANDING BUDDIES.
DO YOU ALSO TELL THEM THAT IF THEY WERE REFERRED TO TLC BY PARENT HELP THAT TLC OWNERS ARE ONE IN THE SAME? DO YOU ALSO TELL THEM THAT IF THEY HAVE ASKED TLC FOR AN ESCORT REFERENCE THAT THEIR SON (ISAAC) IS THE OWNER THEY WILL RECOMMED?
HOW ABOUT JUST GIVING THEM ANY OF THIS INFO.?? DO YOU DO THAT?? (ALONG WITH YOUR GLOWING REVIEW OF COURSE!)

Food for thought... it is only fair that they get the whole picture!

WHAT WERE THE DATES THAT YOUR SON ATTENDED TLC? I'm not looking for exact dates, just approximations- like summer of 2003- or whatever!

HOW OLD WAS HE AT THAT TIME? Seems to make a big difference the age of these kids when they are in the program, for example my son was 17. (only there for 4 LONG months) :question:  :question:  :question:

Finally, to send parents to this forum is certainly fuel for your fire.  I agree that some of the parents and former students act inappropriately.  Again, I am not making excuses for them, but I do understand that this is the only forum they have to vent.  Much of the press, politicians and media do not care about our stories- so this forum allows the things to be said, sometimes in their "raw" form.
It is certainly NOT the place that a person who wanted parents to have an "educated decision" to be sent.  You seem like a reasonably intelligent person, so I know that you understand this statemtent to be true.  So again, I would like to ask that you consider actually sending them to a ligitimate sight with legitimate information, again- like a google search that will tell them about the death of the Reyes boy and the sitings/findings of the investigation, like the Isac sight, or some other search that will give them the full picture.  and I also leave on the same request as on my previous post, which IF TLC and the Bundy's "Other" ventures are on the up and up then there should be no problem divulging their "connection":

DO YOU ALSO TELL THEM THAT IF THEY WERE REFERRED TO TLC BY PARENT HELP THAT TLC OWNERS ARE ONE IN THE SAME? DO YOU ALSO TELL THEM THAT IF THEY HAVE ASKED TLC FOR AN ESCORT REFERENCE THAT THEIR SON (ISAAC) IS THE OWNER THEY WILL RECOMMED?
HOW ABOUT JUST GIVING THEM ANY OF THIS INFO.?? DO YOU DO THAT?? (ALONG WITH YOUR GLOWING REVIEW OF COURSE!)
PLEASE ANSWER THE SPECIFIC ????????

Food for thought... it is only fair that they get the whole picture!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on April 29, 2005, 07:17:00 PM
It is interesting that in your opinion, this site is not one the dispenses "legitimate information."  

As for the other information you ask my son was 17 when at Thayer.  The rest is confidential; as you would say, why post confidential information on a site that does not have "legitimate information."   You said it, not me.  

And my friend, since you have posted on this site, is what you say also not legitimate?  

Your Friend, Nemo.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on April 30, 2005, 10:41:00 AM
Oh Capt. Nemo-
You OBVIOUSLY are part of the whole TLC scheme.  Maybe even the Bundy's themselves.  You KNOW that I was not saying that the information contained here is not legitimate, only that some of the "raw" emotions may make a person "appear" to be irrational.  If you (or anyone else) reads through all of my posting(s) they will see exactly what I intended to say.  I think it is VERY INTERESTING that you THINK you have found a way to discredit me (and everyone else) who posts on this sight.  Again, you sound more and more like a Bundy at every post.
I believe the thing I (and the other people who post on this sight)- Most of which I KNOW, by more than just their posting here, and HIGHLY RESPECT find MOST interesting is that you refuse to tell us WHAT 3 UNIVERSITIES your son applied to, and where he was in fact accepted to.  This is perhaps the MOST TELLING of all you have said.

The statements I made about the "legitimate" sights were specific to- NON EMOTION, and here is the quote from my last post: "Finally, to send parents to this forum is certainly fuel for your fire. I agree that some of the parents and former students act inappropriately. Again, I am not making excuses for them, but I do understand that this is the only forum they have to vent. Much of the press, politicians and media do not care about our stories- so this forum allows the things to be said, sometimes in their "raw" form.
It is certainly NOT the place that a person who wanted parents to have an "educated decision" to be sent."
Again, I like the way you try to "twist" what I said into making it "appear" that our posts are not legitimate- because I used that word doesn't negate everything else I said.  
Your TRUE identity is shining through! We call you an obvious "fly on the wall" - and I, nor any of these other intelligent people are falling for your smoke screen!
We may have been blinded by a lie when we sent our children to TLC, but we RESCUED them and are not falling for any more of them.
SMELL LIKE A BUNDY TO ANYONE ELSE AROUND HERE??
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on April 30, 2005, 12:00:00 PM
Hey Ginger,
I am beginning to feel the same way about this "Nemo" character as you.  Seems to be attacking everything/everyone but the issues and ?? raised.
Thought if maybe I replied to him without emotion and without appearing as though I was "attacking" him that he might come clean and back up his claims about his/his son's TLC experience.  Then maybe we could all come to the conculsion that there was PERHAPS one child that they actually helped.
Seems that I was wrong...
Very telling I would say!

I also wanted to address something that has been really troubling me.  There was this kid that was at TLC the same time my son was there.  My son told me about him when we rescued him.  My son said that he was being medically neglected, and his Fam. Rep. was trying to get him seen by a Dr., ended up calling the authorities over it, and she got fired.  I read an article months ago where this parent was talking about their kid going to TLC, how their Fam. Rep. called them and said there was a problem and that they were glad they did not listen to her because now their son is doing so great, at a new school, etc.Now, I recently heard about this employee who's story sounds like the exact same kid (down to the medical problem the kid had).  I read the article to my son and asked him about this kid- "didn't he ever witness the abuse my son saw, or anything?"  my son told me that HE DID see the other kid(s) abused, and that he also was involved in many of the other stories my son had told me about.  I say all this just to show that either the boy DID NOT WANT tell his parents the whole truth, or that maybe because the boy went from TLC to another school the parents just don't know, maybe they never asked, I don't know, but there is obviously a big difference in the stories. I know that my son was telling the truth because NOW I have read it in a newspaper article straight from the parents, that they were glad they left their son there and did not listen to the rep, and then saw it specifically on the Isac website, and also got it confirmed from another source.  
i also know another parent that can not get his son to talk about his experience at TLC at all.  The kid is scared and very angry.  
So, it is interesting how some parents just don't know the truth, maybe they don't want to know- and, maybe Capt. Nemo is one of those parents?!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on April 30, 2005, 01:39:00 PM
SPEAKINGOUT, I'm really not surprised. Here are a couple of interesting correspondence between some Program vets and some dyed in the wool Program parents:

http://trebach.org/letters/chavez/ (http://trebach.org/letters/chavez/)

http://trebach.org/letters/cavey/ (http://trebach.org/letters/cavey/)

We found out soon after that the Straight graduate of whom this parent is so proud has extremely limited contact w/ him and, like most of us (my mom's just the same) will never leave their own children alone w/ him.

That says a lot about how the Program "works". These folks (Chavez, Cavey, my own mother and Nemo) got just what they paid for; a kid who will never, ever again let them get close enough to see or (God forbid!) try to "help" them w/ any sort of personal problem. If the kid ever does try to explain what was so messed up about the program then the parent can just blame the kid for not working the program and go on basking in the glow of the parent support group's ongoing assurance that, in such a situation, "good" parents get tough and withdraw support and affection.

Clancy's Law: The perceived role of governments is to deploy ever increasing resources to the attainment of  ever diminishing end results.
--Home Page (http://ozinfo.com/)



_________________
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Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on April 30, 2005, 02:23:00 PM
P.S.- Capt Nemo- You are not "my friend" :exclaim: .
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2005, 03:52:00 PM
what happened to Nemo's voice?
Cat got your tongue? :???:
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: finlyrite on May 01, 2005, 08:23:00 PM
I am glad your son is doing so well, but I guess we can't all share your point of view.  I am suprised you were able to enroll him in a University with his TLC academic credits?  My son does understand me sending him to Thayer, but says it was a waste of my money and was nothing but a brainwashing experience for him.  I can honestly say his behavor did NOT change when he returned from Thayer, but was due to other personal experiences six months after his return home.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: finlyrite on May 01, 2005, 08:35:00 PM
I'll have to give Bundy a little bit of credit.  I don't believe he would stoop this low.  Manipulation and deception is Bundy's style.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: finlyrite on May 01, 2005, 08:54:00 PM
If your son was the boy that died as a result of medical care neglect - wonder what you would say then.  I don't really care how many HAPPY ENDINGS exist, one child's death is one too many.  On top of that, the Bundy's blame one of their ex-employees for their revenues being down.  This is why I wouldn't want this characterstic of a person responsible for the well-being of my child.  What about the email I received while my son where there.  FACT-first hand - word for word from Cody Jimenez ([email protected]) Subject:  Thayer Learning Center and I quote:
"I would like to know as much as you know about The Thayer Learning Center.  I am writing a letter to the state reporting claims against them.  Your imput will be added to a number of other parents and ex-employees along with my own. Anything you can tell me will be of use.  I would also ask for a phone number if possible so I may call you regarding any questions I may have about your reply."  Upon sending my phone number and "Cody" calling me and having a conversation asking me why I was not happy with the program, how did I obtain this information (my son had stated these things to me during our telephone conversations since I was unable to have a family visit after 5 1/2 months) and stated that other cadets in the program could have felony charges if they were ever arrested for drug possession - say in Nevada (where he was from - marijuana possession is a felony charge).  I was told by both Willa Bundy "this was their attorney's idea" during my unexpected exit interview.  John Bundy avoided my question and was not man enough to admit to my face this was another 'Bundy Deception' - but they're good people looking out for what is best for these troubled children?  Just food for thought.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: finlyrite on May 01, 2005, 09:05:00 PM
Cpt Nemo - It appears you had the advantage of being advised that Thayer Learning Center was the "end of the program" you wanted for your son.  Unfortunately, I don't believe many of us were given such a truthful picture of Thayer, with many of us not ready for the "end of the road" program.  We were also referred to Thayer Learning Center by Parent Help - who represented themselves as being a facility for helping parents find the "perfect fit" for their troubled teens.  Come to find out, Parent Help is owned by John Bundy.  Would this hit a nerve for you?  Maybe not.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: finlyrite on May 01, 2005, 09:14:00 PM
Cpt Nemo:  Do you feel an inkling of disappointment over the alleged conduct of Willa Bundy?  Can you understand that some of us come here to describe our experiences and feelings since we have been on the receiving end of "Bundy desception"?

State report critical of boot camp over California teen's death

Associated Press

KANSAS CITY, Mo. - A state report on the death last year of a California teenager at a northwest Missouri boot camp found fault with access to medical care there and said records may have been falsified.

The Caldwell County Sheriff's Department had asked the Missouri Department of Social Services to investigate the November death of Roberto Reyes, 15, of Santa Rosa, Calif. The youth died at the Thayer Learning Center in Kidder, less than two weeks after arriving there. An autopsy cited complications from rhabdomyolysis, a breakdown of muscle fibers, and said the condition was probably due to a spider or insect bite.

In a wrongful death lawsuit filed in February in Buchanan County Circuit Court, the boy's parents alleged that he was subjected to physical exertion and abuse that caused or contributed to his death. Reyes' parents also claim their son would have lived had he received competent and timely medical care.

The state report was given last week to Jason Canoy, the Caldwell County prosecutor, who released it to The Kansas City Star. Canoy said he hadn't decided whether he would take any action.

"There are some alarming parts about it," he said of the 275-page report. "But I have not made a decision as to who I would file charges on or if I would file charges at all."

The state team that investigated said the boot camp apparently "failed ... to provide access to appropriate medical evaluation and/or treatment." Further, it said, "interviews and evidence also suggest significant contradictions and possible deliberate falsification of written records."

Ed Proctor, an attorney for Thayer, was unavailable for comment Thursday, but has told The Star that "every child at Thayer has immediate access to medical care at any time."

In interviews excerpted in the state report, owners John and Willa Bundy, along with other people connected with the camp, said they didn't know or think the boy was sick before he died. Willa Bundy also said she hadn't read the records in question until she was interviewed by a state investigator in late February.

At least 10 people identified as Thayer employees gave the state investigators descriptions of the boy, one saying he appeared lazy, another saying his attitude was bad. Some said he struggled to keep up with the rigorous exercise, that he complained of sore muscles, needed assistance walking and at times used others as "a crutch."

At least four said they never saw or were told anything to suggest Roberto was sick. But one drill sergeant said she eventually came to think he might be sick, and at some point relayed her opinion to Dorothy Steele, identified in the report as the facility's medical officer. The report said Steele, also the general manager of the kitchen facilities, is not a registered nurse and that an EMT license that she had expired in 2003.

Steele told investigators she treated Reyes on Nov. 1 for blisters on his feet. Besides sore arm and leg muscles, had no other medical complaints, she said.

Former employee Sarah Mackey, who resigned in December, told investigators her duties included filing daily "shift notes" about students and activities. The report said that after Roberto died, she read notes from the days leading up to his death and "stated that every day the log sheets indicated that Roberto was getting worse and worse and worse."

Mackey told the investigators that Willa Bundy later took files of the shift notes, asked for 10 blank forms and went into her office. When Mackey later reviewed faxed copies of shift notes sent to the state by an attorney for the boot camp, she "stated they were inaccurate and incomplete, compared to the shift notes she had seen and read in the office."
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: finlyrite on May 01, 2005, 09:17:00 PM
This information was not available say 6/03.  Parents are trying to give others some first-hand information about the Program and experiences there.   I was only given references by Parent Help.  Funny thing, one reference I was given was "Adrian Grisel".  This is also Willa Bundy's maiden name, her behavior modification method named "Grisel Method".  Uhmmmmmmm
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2005, 09:29:00 PM
January 23, 2005

Referral agency's connection to boot camp angers parents

Kansas City Star
by Steve Rock

Several parents who sent their troubled teens to Thayer Learning Center in northwest Missouri were referred to the school by what they thought was an independent agency.

In fact, the Parent Help referral service is operated by the same people who run Thayer, a military-style boot camp where a 15-year-old California boy recently died. The death triggered a state investigation and prompted former students and employees to come forward with allegations of physical and emotional abuse of students. The connection between the two businesses, less than 15 miles apart, angered several parents who spoke recently with The Kansas City Star. They said the relationship was never disclosed during conversations with Parent Help employees. ?I was very emotional and desperate in a way,? said Vicki Young of Ohio, who sent her son to Thayer in July 2003. ?And I thought this was a parent help group. ?I didn't have any hint they were related.?

A leading business ethicist said the relationship between the two businesses is clearly a conflict of interest, while a child welfare agency official said such a connection is not uncommon, but should have been disclosed. Three former employees of Parent Help told The Star they were coached to send as many children as possible to Thayer. Two of those former employees said they never disclosed to callers that husband and wife John and Willa Bundy ran both businesses, and one of them said a fellow staff member said not to mention it.

The Bundys ? who opened Thayer Learning Center Boot Camp and Boarding School in Kidder, Mo., in 2002 ? have offices at the Parent Help building in Gallatin, Mo., according to former Parent Help employees. The Bundys declined to take questions from The Star, referring inquiries to their attorney, Ed Proctor. Proctor didn't respond to several messages left with his office.

But Wally Kerr, sales manager at Parent Help, said Thayer is one of about 15 facilities nationwide that Parent Help represents. The Parent Help Web site last week listed eight in addition to two Thayer programs. Kerr said no greater emphasis is placed on sending kids to Thayer than to other schools. ?We try to get the best program possible for (the children),? he said in a telephone interview.

When asked whether Parent Help employees disclose the connection between Parent Help and Thayer to parents, Kerr said they only refer them to Thayer's Web site. The disclosure, Kerr said, ?comes through having them look at the Web site.? Separate Web sites for Thayer and for Parent Help include an identical section describing the Bundys as the owner of each. Each site briefly mentions the Bundys' connection to the other business.

Some of the parents contacted by The Star, however, either don't remember being sent to Thayer's Web site or never saw the mention of Parent Help. ?We're proud of the fact that the Bundys have established a school and that they've established a parent help operation,? Kerr said. ?There's nothing to hide here.?

One parent said she called the Missouri attorney general's office to complain that there wasn't full disclosure but was told to put her complaint in writing. Scott Holste, a spokesman for that office, said the Consumer Protection Division hadn't received any formal, written complaints about Parent Help. His office would look into any complaints lodged, he said. Thayer, located about 50 miles north of Kansas City, houses about 100 teens.

At the request of the Caldwell County sheriff's office, the Missouri Department of Social Services is investigating the November death of Thayer student Roberto Reyes to determine if abuse or neglect was involved. Gus Kolilis, deputy director of the department's legal division, said an investigative team has interviewed ?numerous? people. ?We're not leaving anything unturned,? he said.

No charges have been filed in connection with Reyes' death. Caldwell County Prosecutor Jason Kanoy said he was awaiting results from the state investigation, which could come as early as this week, before deciding whether his office would take any action. After Reyes' death, a panel of county and state officials charged with reviewing child deaths said earlier medical treatment ?may have prevented this fatality.? The Jackson County medical examiner's office said the probable cause of death was a spider or insect bite. The review by county and state officials ? coupled with police reports and allegations made by former students and employees ? painted a disturbing picture of life at Thayer.

A Dec. 19 story in The Star cited police reports and interviews with seven former Thayer employees and students that alleged physical and emotional abuse of students, such as one being forced to eat her own vomit, medical neglect and another student being forced to sit in a tub of urine. In a written response to The Star in December, Thayer officials called the allegations ?ludicrous and false.? Since the story was published, at least two children have been removed from Thayer by their parents.

Now some parents are raising questions about the manner in which their children wound up at Thayer in the first place. Parent Help hot line Some former Parent Help employees said they were reluctant to publicly discuss their experience there because they fear legal retribution from John and Willa Bundy.

Thayer Learning Center has filed at least one lawsuit against former Thayer employees, alleging defamation and other things. But conversations with three former Parent Help employees, as well as relatives of six children who have been at the school, offered insight into the placement process.

Several parents said they found the Parent Help hot line number on the Internet. John Bundy is listed on an online site that registers Web domains as the administrative contact for several sites, such as http://www.troubledteen.com (http://www.troubledteen.com) http://www.troubledteen.com (http://www.troubledteen.com) and http://www.teenprogram.info (http://www.teenprogram.info) http://www.teenprogram.info (http://www.teenprogram.info). Neither of those sites clearly identifies their connection with the Bundys or Thayer Learning Center, but both sites mention Thayer as a ?featured school.? Both of those sites, and others, encourage parents to call the same 800 number. One parent said she called the number, then never went back to the Internet to do further research. ?Why would I?? the parent asked. ?Parent Help said so many wonderful things about Thayer.?

The 800 number is answered by employees at the office in Gallatin, in a building that has no obvious signs identifying Parent Help. Kerr said the business, which has about six employees, gets from  50 to 150 calls a day and additional inquiries via e-mail.

The employees who answer calls to the 800 number are not counselors, two of the former employees said, but salesmen who get commission for placing students at Thayer or other facilities. They ask the parents, many of whom are distraught about their child's behavior, various questions about the child and tell them they'll find the facility that best fits him or her. According to the former employees, though, the Parent Help representative recommends Thayer, where costs can exceed $50,000 a year, to as many parents as possible.

?If you called and your kid was over 12, I was sending you to Thayer,? said one former employee who did not want to be identified. Matthew Turley, who said he worked for Parent Help from July to October 2004, said: ?You would try to put the kid into Thayer, or suggest that one over any other one.? Turley said he never felt awkward pushing Thayer. ?To me, it never felt like I was trying to keep something under wraps,? he said. ?I just felt that Thayer was one of the better ones ? from what I heard.?

Besides, both he and Kerr said, not every child is sent to Thayer. There are some children ? those younger than 13 and older than 17, for example ? that Thayer typically won't take. So some kids are sent to places such as Bonneville Canyon in Maine. ?They have been very good to us,? Michelle Tibbetts, who works in admissions for Bonneville Canyon, said of her organization's relationship with Parent Help. Tibbetts said she was unaware of the connection between Thayer and Parent Help.

Kerr said employees aren't coached to send kids to Thayer but ?to get them into the correct program.? ?We don't follow a script,? he said. As far as the connection between Parent Help and Thayer, Turley said that unless asked specifically, ?we would never tell (the parents) that.? That infuriates W. Michael Hoffman, executive director of the Center for Business Ethics at Bentley College near Boston.

?I've heard of a lot of conflicts of interest, but this is way over the top,? he said. ?To say the least, it's clearly unethical ? especially when you're dealing with children, children who obviously need help.? Joe Healy, director of residential services for the Child Welfare League of America, based in Washington, D.C., said it's not uncommon for agencies to operate a referral center and a placement facility.

?For those that do, it would be typical that it's clear to everybody that they do both and that the referral might be to one of their own programs,? Healy said. ?It would seem to me, ethically, that you would disclose that.? Angry families All Young wanted to do was help her son, now 18. Her teenage son had become defiant, and Young wanted a military-type school for him, a structured and regimented environment that also had an educational component.

Young scoured the Internet, eventually finding the Parent Help Web site, which states: ?We help parents with troubled teens.? She filled out a questionnaire and waited for a phone call, which she believed would be from an independent referral service. The person who returned her call recommended Thayer. ?He said he had actually been to that facility to see what it was all about and that he was very impressed,? Young remembers. ?He said there were several programs, but specifically recommended Thayer Learning Center.?

Based on the recommendation, Young and her husband drove their son from Ohio to Thayer in July 2003. The grandmother of a different child also didn't realize there was a connection between Thayer and Parent Help. Jacqueline Payne, a Texas resident, desperately wanted to help her granddaughter. She found the Parent Help hot line number on the Internet and said she spoke with a Parent Help employee at least five or six times.

Not once did the connection between Thayer and Parent Help come up. ?I was real specific about what I wanted,? Payne said. ?He just said, ?It sounds like Thayer is the school you want.' He really talked them up and said the owner, Willa Bundy, had a lot of experience with kids. It sounded like the perfect match. ?There was never, ever any indication that they weren't an independent company. There was a curtain of dishonesty there.?

Payne's granddaughter was at Thayer for less than four months in 2003.

Parent Help Inc. was registered in Utah in February 1998. John Bundy, 47, is listed as the registered agent in Utah secretary of state filings. Thayer Learning Center LLC was registered in Missouri in August 2002, and lists Willa Bundy, 43, as the registered agent.

Ricky Parker wishes he knew about the connection between the two facilities before he sent his son to Thayer in November 2003. The Parent Help representative he spoke with pushed Thayer ?the whole way,? he said.  ?I thought I was talking to an organization that would help me choose, out of maybe several schools, where to send my child,? said Parker, who removed his son in January 2004. ?It was like, ?Hey, man, I worked there for a time. They really know what they're doing. They're very caring.' ?I thought they were advising me.? His thoughts now? ?I'm out about $20,000,? he said.

First glance

? A northwest Missouri military-style boot camp and a referral agency that recommends the school are run by the same people.

? Some parents who sent their children to Thayer Learning Center are angry because they thought the referral was coming from an independent agency.

Finding the right fit

Ruth Ehresman, policy director of Citizens for Missouri's Children, a nonprofit child advocacy group based in St. Louis, says parents need to ask tough questions when looking for a home for their troubled teen. If dealing with a referral service, ask whether the service has any affiliations with the schools it represents. When dealing directly with the facility, Ehresman suggests asking questions such as:

? Is the school credentialed, licensed or accredited? If so, by whom?

? Are staff screened? What kind of training is required of staff?

? Is there a written discipline policy?

? What's the provision for medical care?
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 02, 2005, 05:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-01 17:35:00, finlyrite wrote:

"I'll have to give Bundy a little bit of credit.  I don't believe he would stoop this low.  Manipulation and deception is Bundy's style."


Oh, this seems to be quite common in the industry. And this is one reason why people are afraid to speak out and why it's so difficult to get any justice. There's a fine line between telling what you know and libel. People get emotional and make mistakes in their choice of words that anybody (but a good lawyer experienced in this area of law) might make. So then they get sued. Even if you do sue successfully, they routinely pressure plaintifs to accept a gag order as part of the settlement.

And then the Bundys and the Lichfields and all the rest of them claim the small number of successful lawsuits against them constitutes proof that they've never done anything wrong.

This is a really mean spirited industry!

Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 01:09:00 AM
Dear Everyone:  

Sorry to miss all of your kind words.  I have been out of town (without laptop) and just returned.

As reading comprehension seems low on the board, I think it is time I repeat a few points.

1)  My comments about the results achieved by my son have only been about him.  I have made no other statements of general suitability; only to say that it is not a place for the "good kids", but (if any) the rally "hard cases."

2)  I have never defended the Bundy's. I have never met them.  

3)  I do not support the Bundy's fronting websites which do not disclose their connection to Thayer.  This, I beleive is wrong.

4)  The fact is that Thayer did work for my son.  I am sorry for any teen who was in a program that did not work out him or her.  I have only one son and he benefited from Thayer.  

5)  The diploma from the correspondance school Thayer uses was accepted by 3 universities.  No one even questioned it.  Maybe these are the only 3 schools in America that will accept it; I don't know. What I do know is that he is studying with an academic scholarship and doing well.

6)  I have never challanged anyone's account of how the program they were in was a complete failure.  I have accepted your bad experiences at face value [something you cannot bring yourselves to do regarding my son's experiences at Thayer]

7)  I understand that many parents feel guilty about their decision to send their teens to such a program.  I accept this and do not minimalize your feelings.

:cool:  I know full well what Thayer is like.  What you seem unable to accept is that this is just what he needed.  He confirms this to me.  

My son seems well adjusted to college life.  He is getting all "A"s and laid on average 3 times a week.  That meets my definition of a well adjusted young man.  We speak by phone almost daily.

What most of you need to get over is that FACT that a program you dislike very much did for my son achieve the desired results.  

It is interesting that you all find every reason possible not to accept what I have written.

As to posting on this site my or my son's name...just read your own posts.  Few of you are mentally mature enough to deal in an adult-like manner with such information and some of you are downright psychologically damaged (as you say in your own posts).

What most of you need to realize -- and this is somthing that will assit you in getting rid of all that anger you express on this site -- is that no matter how hard we try, we won't get a better past.

To the parents:  If we only had all the information before we made decisions.  With teens in trouble, we must often act quickly. And, it is our children through their own choices and actions that put us in this spot.  So if we error, it is in trying to do what is/was best for them.  

To the teens:  It would have been cheaper for Mom and Dad to have tossed you out the door.  They spent a lot of money on what they thought was best for you.  If it wasn't, well, they at least tried.  And, it was your poor choices and actions which put them on the spot to send you away. And don't say "It was just teen stuff, I would have grown out of it."  Listen, the jails and cemeteries are full of teens who did not "grow out of it"...and their parents cry themselves to sleep each night.

And to everyone:  Life is about making choices and moving on.  We are neither omniscient nor infallible.

Kindest Regards, Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on May 05, 2005, 10:00:00 AM
OK NEMO- SAME ?? for the third or forth time- JUST ANSWER IT- NO OTHER JARGON- JUST THE ANSWER.

WHAT THREE UNIVERSITIES ACCEPTED THEIR DIPLOMA?

if you don't want to include the University your son is in FINE- just give us the other two.
DO NOT SKIRT THIS ISSUE- answer the ??
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 10:06:00 AM
Quote
:cool:  I know full well what Thayer is like.  What you seem unable to accept is that this is just what he needed.  He confirms this to me.  


If you truly do know what is done to children at Thayer, and you condone it, then you're even sicker than I thought.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on May 05, 2005, 11:17:00 AM
Nemo, I think the point many parents are trying to make on here is simply this, do you honestly believe that a school that abuses children, to a point that a child dies, is worth it?  Because your son "faired ok" with the TLC experience, yet many others are abused daily....even as the evidence dhows, to the point of death....do you still feel it is worth it?  Are you saying the boy that died in November, was valueless?  His life was worth nothing simply because your son faired ok?

Honestly, I would like to know your thoughts on this  decause, from what I am reading from your posts, you seem to think it doesnt matter that other students are abused...even to the point of death...as long as you got the desired results for YOUR son.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 12:34:00 PM
Dear Friends:

On 09/05/04 I made a post on this site entitled, "Why I post anomalously".

Since some of you may not have seen this post, let me restate the salient point.  It is also the reason why I am not going to inform you of the university my son is at.

I received the following e-mail (my e-mail address was posted back in Sept., '04), from one of your fellow sophicates, a Mr. Devlin Graves, as follows:

"i just sent a copy of your post on the Fomits Board and sent it to the
Divsion of Family Servies in Missouri. What you admitted that goes on in Thayer is child abuse and you by keeping your kid there you are now a party to it. Congragulations the DFS will find your identity and hunt you down and i hope they lock you up, and take your kid away! You should be spaded and neudered. Your no parent.."

To give you the full flavor of Mr Graves prose, I have left his spelling and syntax in their original glory.

Now, I know what you are all thinking, "Why didn't his Mom and Dad send him to English camp."

Well, I just don't know.  It might of been on account Mr. Graves pharmacological interests; or perhaps, for some other reason.

Now gentle reader, if you received such an e-mail, would you be prepared to disclose on this site sensitive personal information?

Fondest Regards, Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on May 05, 2005, 12:54:00 PM
NEMO- YOU DID IT AGAIN!!!!
I specifically said that you DON'T need to even tell us where your son is, only the "other two" universities that he applied to, which would IN NO WAY identify him.  
You skirted the issue.  Whew... I am getting really tired of this game.
There are other things in your last 2 posts I would like to address, but then I know you will NOT ADDRESS this- AND ONLY THIS issue.
Then we can move on to the "other stuff"

COME ON NEMO- WHAT UNIVERSITIES ACCEPTED TLC DIPLOMA AND CREDITS!!!??????!!!!!!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 05, 2005, 01:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-04 22:09:00, Anonymous wrote:



 :cool:  I know full well what Thayer is like.  What you seem unable to accept is that this is just what he needed.  He confirms this to me.  


No wonder you're so skittish about using your real name. I ask again, though I don't really expect a straight answer from you at this point, why didn't you just kick his ass and ride him like a psycho drill seargent yourself? Is it because you havn't got the stomach for the violence? Because you know it's criminal child abuse and you were afraid of facing the legal consequences? Because you're just too lazzy to do it yourself when you could pay strangers to do it for you?

What is the reason to hire the people at Thayer to rough up your kid for you? What do they do there that you couldn't do yourself?

"Narcotics have been systematically scapegoated and demonized. The idea that anyone can use drugs and escape a horrible fate is an anathema to these idiots. I predict that in the near future right-wingers will use drug hysteria as a pretext to set up an international police apparatus."

--William S. Burroughs



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
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Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 05, 2005, 05:46:00 PM
I just happened to read this thread,looking for some info on a related topic: congrats on your kid doing well, I went thru a similar thing with a kid in a different school that these board-rats bash a lot---same outcome as yours interestingly enough, my kid is in an advanced college program, loves us, thanks us for sending him, the future is his---and ours.

Just blow these losers off, Nemo, that's what I do. Sure they'll bash any program that stops a kid from acting on every dangerous self-defeating impulse, cuz that's what these characters do, how they live, by and large, check it out by just reading their stories.  

I mean it's easier to blame a program than admit what a mess you've made of your life.  Self-justification: that's what this board is about, from Antigen the ancient pothead and on down to the membership in all its antisocial glory.

Also just blow off the lunatic who sent your post to Missouri Family Services---this lunatic can't read, I guess, since your kid is in college---not exactly Family Services material.  

They must have been laughing at Devlin "Can't Spell Worth a Shit" Graves all day long over there in Missouri if he really did contact them (and it wasn't just an opium dream or hallucination or something), this school, it's a legal program folks---trust me--Family Services in Missouri has more pressing things to deal with.

Best thing in my opinion is to use this board for information, it's good for that sometimes at least (although you always have to double check it somewhere else to validate it cuz of the crazies here)

And if you want to be kind to answer parents who are sincerely in need of information or advice and post here it's good for addressing them too.  

Your words won't help the others, they're lost, it'll take more than a stranger's words on a computer terminal before they turn their lives around. It' nice you want to help and be reasonable---but I don't think it's possible with most of the types that prowl around on Fornit's

But I agree it's good to stay anonymous when dealing with criminal/insane types.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 05, 2005, 06:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-05 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

Sure they'll bash any program that stops a kid from acting on every dangerous self-defeating impulse,


No, I generally focus my attention on programs that kill kids, like Roberto Reyes, and those that torment kids, like so many who have been through WWASP programs and lived to tell about it.

How can you possibly defend people who kill children???


 

In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.  But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
--Martin Luther King

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on May 05, 2005, 10:34:00 PM
some people- apparently YOU included just don't care what goes on at TLC, or other's like it.  I have spoken with some of you- it's very sad.  We are not crazy people- and you should be careful about broad statements like that.  Most of us are caring parents who bought deception out of desperation to HELP our kids- we put them in harms way.  We are trying to make a difference here- not just complain about the past- but change the future.  NO DOUBT some kids need programs- but, they also need to be safe, non-abusive, and effective.  There ARE SOME OUT THERE- I sent my son to one AFTER I rescued him from  TLC.  The Child Protective services would arrest any of us if we did any of these things to our kids that TLC did.  But, they are somehow above the law.  We are NOT going to sit back and take it, and this board is just ONE WAY we are SPEAKING OUT. We are not gonna stop until they- TLC and every other program that abuses and neglects kids is gone.  
You, Nemo and the other "parents" that think that this treatment is ok have a problem.  And, I use that term "parents" very loosley.  Just because you make a child doesn't mean you are fit to be their parent.
We care about our kids, and your kids,and all the kids out there that are/or have been mistreated.  That's what we are about- that's what we've always been about, and that's what we will always be about- so stop trying to make it about anything else!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: The Liger on May 05, 2005, 11:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-04 22:09:00, Anonymous wrote:

"My son seems well adjusted to college life.  He is getting all "A"s and laid on average 3 times a week.  That meets my definition of a well adjusted young man."


!!!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 06, 2005, 12:09:00 AM
Boy, SPEAKINGOUT, are you ever "special"---at least in your own mind!!! You're going to tell me what is means to be a parent: I don't think so!

Get this--my kids would see your raving and your so-called "responsibility taking" and your rants about what it is a parent as a pathetic joke.  A weak stupid person on a crusade to justify him/herself.

Disgusting.

They would see you as a joke--like I do--- and like any clear thinking person would.
 
What "special" knowledge do you have--you don't, you know---it's just your limited little interpretations of circumstances that anyone with a little more smarts and some sense of responsibility is likely to see completely differently.


I tell you---being a parent is tough sometimes, sometimes it means making really hard decisions, and we've made them and we've stood by them and we're happy with them.

So do what you like in your own pathetic family--you are so full of it about Child Protection and about anything else you try to pass off as knowledge--I don't know why I'm even bothering to argue with a fool like you

I say to Nemo and other parents who stepped up to the plate and did what they had to do: GOOD FOR YOU, THANK YOU FOR BEING A LOVING PARENT AND MAKING THE HARD CHOICES.  You'll reap the rewards

And for the whiney losers like SPEAKINGOUT--you'll reap your own consequences, that much is clear--just remember--when you fail with your kids there's not much left to succeed at.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 06, 2005, 12:13:00 AM
Thank you very much for you supportive comments.

You are right, this website is basically the land of the losers.  Everyone is a fashionable victim.  I have never seen a former boot camp attendee ever write about just what self-destructive (and almost certainly illegal) behavior caused their parents to send them off.  They are all victims.  Come on now gang, be men (or women).  Stand up for your own self-destructive choices and actions.  Admit that most of you were drug abusers (probably still are) and that you could not control yourselves.  

No, no one wants to own up to his or her teen-ager behavior.  If you read the posts, sound something along the lines of this:  I was a good (well, mostly good) teen.  One day I was walking home from school and was abducted by space aliens. They kidnapped me and took me to this awful place called boot camp...."

The most candor one finds is when someone says they were "doing teenage stuff", which one will "grow out of".  That comment seems to encompass such "stuff" as drug use/dealing, violent behavior, rebellion against parental authority, running away, drunkenness, failing school, etc.  A good truth-in-posting-rule would require each poster to honestly state the actions and choices he or she made that caused his or her parents to spend their hard earned money in attempt to save their child.

Some posters, such as Ginger, required two trips.  Ginger, why did you not give up drugs the first go-around?  

The answers back are all the same:  Quack, quack, quack -- if you support any boot camp program you are a child abuser -- quack, quack, give-me-another-joint, quack, quack, etc.

From what the parents write, the biggest problem seems to be they took their kids out too soon.  So, parents, are you happy now with your teens?  Are they back on drugs?  Do you sleep well at night when they are out?  Do they sound like Devlin?

What kills you victims out their in Frontisland is when people like us write about how the book camp worked for our kids.  It just highlights that you failed.  Failed utterly.  Failed completely.  And that in those dark moments of your loneliness, when one drug is wearing off and the other has yet to take effect (sound familiar Ginger?) you realize, despite all of your claims of "abuse" and "torture", that you are failures:  you failed as teens and now fail as adults.  Now, in that desperate search for meaning, the search that gives you some glimmer to live for, you must attack the vary programs that might have saved you from your current oblivion.

And so, you all meet up each evening.  You convince yourselves that your are victims (thus not responsible for your own behavior) and rile against those who have saved their children from your fate.  And then, when you log off your computer and pass by the mirror, you look at yourself and know the truth...

Fondest Regards, Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 06, 2005, 08:53:00 AM
There are a few grads that try to post about the good things that the program did for them and how they never saw abuse and torture, like Perri, and Amanda.  However, people like that don't stay around long because of the abuse they receive here.  The Fornits regulars refuse to believe that anyone could possibly have been helped since they were not or would not be helped.  It is a shame that more satisfied customers don't find out about this site and let parents know that everything the regulars post here is not true.  But...then again...those are the ones that go on with their lives are successful and don't have time to do this everyday.  I try to visit here periodically to encourage those that get bashed by the nay sayers.  Don't get fed up and leave, just keep encouraging!  Often distressed, hopeless parents end up here looking for help.  Unfortunately what they receive here is more discouragement and abuse.  Buzzkill seems to be pretty sharp about the industry and balanced on both sides, however doesn't post as much as the destructive foul mouthed ones.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on May 06, 2005, 10:34:00 AM
u know...it is not very kind to make general statements about "all" the parents.  I dont believe I have said anything derogatory about you in any of my posts.

That being said.  My son does NOT come on these boards because I wont allow him to.  He has been through enough and surely does not need to read the types of posts people like you put on here, such derogatory statements about people you know nothing about.  What purpose would that possibly serve?

Thayer worked for your children?  Great, fantastic!  But that doesn't excuse the fact that it is harmful to many.

I have repeatedly said that my son specifically said that while many, many students are abused at Thayer, not all the students are.  I have NEVER said that each and every student was abused!  I simply said that MY son was, and that my son witnesed the abuse of many others, meanwhile, there were a few that WERE NOT abused.

I post the reality, yet you want to throw around names and unsubstantiated slurs?  That is fine with me, because when people DO come on here to read these boards and gather information, they will see your antics and not put any faith into your statements.

AND, for the record, I was contacted by a private investigator who had been hired by some parents to check into Thayer before they sent their child there.  I also put him in touch with other parents, some that were happy with the program, some who were not.  I felt that the parents needed to hear it from all sides and make their own informed decision.  After hearing stories from both sides, what do you think they chose to do?  They chose not to send their child there becuase they felt the risks of abuse/neglect or even death outweighed the possible positive outcome.

And...btw...you can post on here under a made up username instead of a brown paper bag...it does not reveal your identity.[ This Message was edited by: tlcrescue on 2005-05-06 07:35 ]
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 06, 2005, 08:10:00 PM
Dear Losers,

I cannot for the life of me comprehend the utter abhorrence that you all have inflicted against me for each of my phenomenal posts.  I mistakenly anticipated that uneducated failures such as yourselves would be thoroughly impressed and awed by my spectacular utilization of spell-check and a thesaurus.  I am distressed that I have spent such substantial time away from the websites I usually frequent during the day when my wife is at work.  I have taken great care to make sure that each post really elucidates the type of intelligence that I believe myself to possess.  

I suppose I was arguing merely to appease myself.  While I believe my posts to be great and magnificent, I am wee where it counts.  You see, pointing out the poor spelling and grammar of others made me feel long and wide, but only in my mind.  Perhaps if I humbly exit this forum, I will have the time to respond to all those emails I get that promise to address my true problem.

Fondest Regards, Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Troll Control on May 07, 2005, 12:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-05 09:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Dear Friends:



On 09/05/04 I made a post on this site entitled, "Why I post anomalously".



Since some of you may not have seen this post, let me restate the salient point.  It is also the reason why I am not going to inform you of the university my son is at.



I received the following e-mail (my e-mail address was posted back in Sept., '04), from one of your fellow sophicates, a Mr. Devlin Graves, as follows:



"i just sent a copy of your post on the Fomits Board and sent it to the

Divsion of Family Servies in Missouri. What you admitted that goes on in Thayer is child abuse and you by keeping your kid there you are now a party to it. Congragulations the DFS will find your identity and hunt you down and i hope they lock you up, and take your kid away! You should be spaded and neudered. Your no parent.."



To give you the full flavor of Mr Graves prose, I have left his spelling and syntax in their original glory.



Now, I know what you are all thinking, "Why didn't his Mom and Dad send him to English camp."



Well, I just don't know.  It might of been on account Mr. Graves pharmacological interests; or perhaps, for some other reason.



Now gentle reader, if you received such an e-mail, would you be prepared to disclose on this site sensitive personal information?



Fondest Regards, Nemo



"

I find it funny that someone who aims to deride others by criticizing their "comprehension" level can't even spell ANONYMOUSLY.

I find it funnier still that the word he used instead of "anonymously" was ANOMALOUSLY, meaning "deviating from the general or common order or type," which actually describes his posts...

My conclusion:  Capt Nemo is a cognitively impaired deviant.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Troll Control on May 07, 2005, 12:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-05 21:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Thank you very much for you supportive comments.



You are right, this website is basically the land of the losers.  Everyone is a fashionable victim.  I have never seen a former boot camp attendee ever write about just what self-destructive (and almost certainly illegal) behavior caused their parents to send them off.  They are all victims.  Come on now gang, be men (or women).  Stand up for your own self-destructive choices and actions.  Admit that most of you were drug abusers (probably still are) and that you could not control yourselves.  



No, no one wants to own up to his or her teen-ager behavior.  If you read the posts, sound something along the lines of this:  I was a good (well, mostly good) teen.  One day I was walking home from school and was abducted by space aliens. They kidnapped me and took me to this awful place called boot camp...."



The most candor one finds is when someone says they were "doing teenage stuff", which one will "grow out of".  That comment seems to encompass such "stuff" as drug use/dealing, violent behavior, rebellion against parental authority, running away, drunkenness, failing school, etc.  A good truth-in-posting-rule would require each poster to honestly state the actions and choices he or she made that caused his or her parents to spend their hard earned money in attempt to save their child.



Some posters, such as Ginger, required two trips.  Ginger, why did you not give up drugs the first go-around?  



The answers back are all the same:  Quack, quack, quack -- if you support any boot camp program you are a child abuser -- quack, quack, give-me-another-joint, quack, quack, etc.



From what the parents write, the biggest problem seems to be they took their kids out too soon.  So, parents, are you happy now with your teens?  Are they back on drugs?  Do you sleep well at night when they are out?  Do they sound like Devlin?



What kills you victims out their in Frontisland is when people like us write about how the book camp worked for our kids.  It just highlights that you failed.  Failed utterly.  Failed completely.  And that in those dark moments of your loneliness, when one drug is wearing off and the other has yet to take effect (sound familiar Ginger?) you realize, despite all of your claims of "abuse" and "torture", that you are failures:  you failed as teens and now fail as adults.  Now, in that desperate search for meaning, the search that gives you some glimmer to live for, you must attack the vary programs that might have saved you from your current oblivion.



And so, you all meet up each evening.  You convince yourselves that your are victims (thus not responsible for your own behavior) and rile against those who have saved their children from your fate.  And then, when you log off your computer and pass by the mirror, you look at yourself and know the truth...



Fondest Regards, Nemo





"

If you all are such enlightened sophisticates and great parents, why are your kids so incredibly fucked up?

Look at yourselves in the mirror and say: "I fucked up so bad at parenting that I had to give my kid to strangers in Missouri to do the job I couldn't do."  

Isn't that the objective reality here?  

Of course, shifting the focus to others gives you a convenient refuge from the truth: you are horrible parents who couldn't even provide the basics of child-rearing in your own homes.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 03:38:00 PM
Don't know all the dynamics of the grudge-matches on this thread, just happened upon it in search of a piece of info about Thayer and complimented Nemo's interesting post a day or so back:  now I'm Nemo's sychopant.  Whatever.

The last poster says that we parents of kids who end up at therapeutic boarding schools have screwed up big time.  Really???

I would think that would be obvious: when kids reach a point at which parents are willing to be separated from them and to pay (at least on our family budget) devestating amounts of money to help them, well, to say the least, something is terribly wrong.

And if I raised the kid, how can I not be part of that "terribly wrong".  I mean it's not universally true: you could have, say, an adopted kid who went thru such terrible things before the adoption, that even really attentive, adequate parenting can't turn things around. You could have a kid with mental problems that lead to certain outcomes regardless of parenting style.

In our own case, I'll be the first to say that we were too focused on the material world and success and not emotionally in touch with our kid, not supportive and understanding enough of his needs and problems: it wasn't about some big intentionally abusive thing, in our case at least, it was about not accepting and knowing the kid for who he was. And teaching him that who he was was good enough.

Of  course the kid's choices played a part in the whole downward spiral---but we were the adults, we allowed the thing to take form and we will always be sorry and ashamed of that. Not because some stranger on a web site calls us names---but because we know that we could have done better if we had been more aware---and we weren't.

That's why the whole school experience has changed us for the better as well as helping our kid change, we've learned from the parenting program, our family is overall 100% stronger and happier because of that school (we didn't use Thayer BTW, we looked into and found a place we chose as being the best match for us). We're several years post his graduation and we continue to be amazed at what that school did for all of us.

So my point is this to the previous poster: yes we screwed up.  But we did what we had to do to change things.  Isn't that how life is sometimes: you make a terrible mistake intentionally or unintentionally--- and then it's up to you to find the best solution you can.

Sorry you hate Thayer so much, I'll be the first to say I don't know much about that school but I do know other people who don't see it your way at all.

And I continue to congratulate Nemo and other parents who didn't just say "my kid is destroying his life, I'm going to let him learn from his choices, follow his own path"---I just happen to think that as parents, imperfect as we are, benign neglect in the face of disaster is not an option.

I think that the last poster and I could agree however that a therapeutic boarding school is a last option, not a first----it sure was for us.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on May 07, 2005, 05:55:00 PM
First, where are the post's from Perri and Amanda? I would like to read them!
Second,I have read through every post and have not found people who are calling you or Nemo, or any other person claiming no abuse a liar.  We are simply saying that ALL of our children either were abused or neglected, or saw children who were.  And as TLC Rescue points out- the fact that some kids are abused/neglected should be enough for any parent to decide that there may be a better program out there for their child.  That's the point we have been trying to make.  Unfortunately there is so much other jargon we can't stay on the point.
All I have been trying to ask Nemo is to verify his claims about TLC's academics by telling us the universities- HAVE you noticed that he has never answered that ?? that I posed several times. Because this is a BIG issue it is the only one I kept trying to get an answer to.  NEVER DID!!
We never accused him of lying about his son's experience there (lack of abuse/neglect)- we only wondered if it mattered that it does happen.  Again, even if our posts here don't matter- read the news articles about the Reye's boys death investigation.  It is CLEAR that he DID NOT receive prompt medical care from TLC- even if they have not decided whether charges will be filed or not-that should be enough to lift an eyebrow.  
Also, no one was claiming that they are a victim, that we were perfect parents, that our kids were "good" kids, or any of those other attacks made against us.  Ginger never said that either.  Devlin has not been in a school to my knowledge, he is just a good ol'guy advocating against abusive schools.  Somehow all of us have been "slammed".  So what if someone does not have the same English level as you do, that doesn't mean that he does not have a heart, or a brain.  So what if Ginger was placed in one of these schools, it doesn't make her less of a human being, or a US citizen, or a grown-up.  There are some very good parents who have raised some really bad kids, there are an equal number of parents who are really bad parents who have raised some really good kids.  I don't think that we need to attack people's character.  The only point I was trying to make about being a parent was just that.  I don't care who the parent is, if they knowingly send children to a school where there is alleged abuse going on- even if it's only to 1/2 the population- there is something wrong with them.  That is basically saying that 1/2 the population doesn't "matter".   The point again is that all kids matter, and that we did not send them there to be abused/neglected, or to witness such, we sent them there to be helped.
I was also criticized about my comment about Child Protective Services.  It is TRUE what I said.  Read the Reyes report, listen to the TLC rescue mom who's son's ankle was broken, listen to my son who saw kid's "dropped" to the ground, who was sick and was refused medical treatment, and so many others.  Lot's listed on the Isac website.  Go check it out and then let us know if these claims were against a school (even if they weren't PROVEN)- would you send your child there? And, if you "allegedly" did any of these things to your child would you be arrested?  That's the question.  Now, regarding being "proven"- let me explain what is currently going on in Missouri with the Dept. of Social Services.  I will QUOTE part of their response from a letter I received from them regarding a claim I had made against TLC.  I will use the name "John Doe" for all victims to protect their identity.
AND I QUOTE:
"Administration at Thayer Learning Center was asked to provide any medical information for "John Doe" and asked to allow us to speak with students and staff who might have had information regarding the allegations.  The only information received was that they dispose of all information about students when they leave the facility.  There is no available evidence to support a Probable Cause finding therefore the finding is Unsubstantiated.
It was alleged a black student with the last name of "Doe" was physically abused by staff members of Thayer Learning Center.  When the request was made, at the facility, for information about a student with this name, staff said they had multiple black males with the last name of "Doe" and we were not allowed to speak with any student.  There was no response to a letter to Thayer Administration requesting identifying information and requesting the opportunity to speak with other students and staff.  This hotline is coded Unable to Locate based on the fact we were not able to identify the alleged victim."
END OF QUOTE

So, basically if TLC decides not to "cooperate" (which they did in this case)- there is nothing that the Dept. of Social Serv. can do.
How does that sit with you?  Doesn't sit with me AT ALL!!

As far as the "industry" as a whole- we are not bashing it, we are only talking about our own experiences with the ones that proved to US to be bad choices.
Again, we sent our son to another program after TLC. So, it's not about "all programs" - you just happen to be on this "topic" where we believe this school is.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 08:45:00 PM
Last poster (SPEAKING OUT): Do I read this correctly?  

What I think you are saying is that you have no argument with the fact that some kids, for reasons of who they are and/or of what has happened in their lives, need to be in a therapeutic boarding school for a while so that they can have good lives.  You don't like or trust Thayer, that's your point?

Don't know whether you're right or wrong about Thayer, (that's why I'm trying to learn about it on this thread, for reasons of advising another parent)--- but if you aren't one of the social anarchists who simply doesn't want any restraints on self-destructive kids, well, then I get where you're coming from: whether you're right or wrong about Thayer is a separate issue.  

The people who drive me crazy are the ones who would discard adulthood and just let kids do what they will, like it's all good to throw away their futures and we should all say "Well it's their choice".  I won't. Never.

BTW I don't care about Devlin's grammar or Nemo's refusal to talk about universities (sorry Nemo, I thought you were a mom, I guess you're a dad, my mistake), these seem like small issues, I care about encouraging parents to act like grown-ups-- and I guess that my point is that I don't see enough of them here on this thread.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 10:34:00 PM
Yes, this is Nemo and I am a father.

Thayer uses the American School of Correspondence for its high school.  They have been around since the late 19th century.  They are accredited. Thus, one does not get a "Thayer Diploma", but one rather from the American School.  

While my son was accepted at three universities, we applied to more.  No university questioned the American School Diploma.  Should you be interested, you can check out their website.

Best Regards, Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on May 07, 2005, 11:58:00 PM
The answer to your question is no, I am not against all theraputic schools.  There is certainly a place for them, and I do work with parents referred to me to try to help them find a good one when that's what they need.  I am not an Education Consultant by trade, just a better educated parent about these programs. After what I went through with Thayer I have a sharper eye for the bull, and know how to ask the right questions of the right people, and do a little background on it all.
Sending your child away to a boarding school is always (or should always be) a last resort.

The people who post (for the most part) on this board are parents of rescued Thayer students.  It's not that we don't believe in the programs- cuz we sent our kid there.  Now, some parents are so scared that they NO LONGER believe that there is a "good" program out there, and they don't even care if there is because their kid is so freaked out now that they don't want to send them away in fear that they might not get them back (like the Reyes boy).

you said: "The people who drive me crazy are the ones who would discard adulthood and just let kids do what they will, like it's all good to throw away their futures and we should all say "Well it's their choice". I won't. Never. "
of course I agree with you- so do most of the other parents on this sight (i know most of them myself).  The ones that don't well- then why are they on this sight in the first place?

You also said: "BTW I don't care about Devlin's grammar or Nemo's refusal to talk about universities (sorry Nemo, I thought you were a mom, I guess you're a dad, my mistake), these seem like small issues, I care about encouraging parents to act like grown-ups-- and I guess that my point is that I don't see enough of them here on this thread."
If you are in fact trying to help another parent decide what they should do with their child then you SHOULD care about the academic aspect of the program- unless of course a good education doesn't matter.  Now, you will notice that Nemo posted AGAIN after our posts and STILL DID NOT NAME the Universities.  It is important because many of us have been told that it is worthless, and that the universities will not accept it.  I wouldn't KNOW first hand BECAUSE MY SON did not get ANY CREDITS from them- ask around how many kids did- and if they actually got accepted to a University, WHICH ONES??????????????????????????
Something else to note about Nemo was that he considered his son well adjusted because he was getting A's AND LAID SEVERAL TIMES A WEEK.
Is that a parent acting like a grown-up?
Want to know what Nemo is going to do when the son that he is so proud of for his active sex life contracts some lifetime STD, or gets a girl pregnant, or worse- gets AIDS.  Then he will really have something to deal with.  
I also care about the stuff going on at Thayer and other schools like it because it is wrong, and kids are being neglected, abused and in some instances killed.  No matter how bad a child is they do not deserve to be treated like that.
I've said my peace here.  Hope that it's clear.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 10:37:00 AM
Nemo,
I'll say it straight up, unless you are referring to community colleges as universities you are a liar.  The American Schools program is completely worthless in gaining entrance to any university.

Parent of Thayer victim
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 08, 2005, 10:57:00 AM
You can settle this pretty easily. Call around some major universities and ask if they accept American Schools diplomas or not.

Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
--Thomas Paine

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 02:34:00 PM
The American Schools have a website that is easily accessed by a google search, apparently they offer two programs, a college prep one and a general one.

As far as I could see they did not list any stats about how many of their grads go to college but I didn't look around their site exhaustively so I may have missed something

But you know, it's true that lots of kids who are home-schooled get into college, largely on the basis of SAT and other college-entrance exam scores---so I'd bet that if the American Schools curriculum prepares a kid adequately enough to score well on these kinds of tests they're going to get in---but calling and asking registrars at universities and colleges would be an easy way to sure about this.

Question remains: how important are the academics when you've got a kid in crisis, I mean, education is relatively important and all, but you can always pick up additional course work later on.

To me, the main thing is whether the therapeutic  school (Thayer or any other) helps the kid stop being self destructive and helps to develop self love and acceptance. I get that some people here don't think that Thayer is good in that department and some do.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 08, 2005, 06:33:00 PM
Not only was the American School diploma good enough to get him admitted to a 4 year university (his high SAT scores helped as well), it got him an academic scholarship which pays 50%of his tuition.

As Ginger posted, all one need do is call around to some universities.  

The Thayer-haters are an interesting lot.  Not only do they hate Thayer, but they seemingly hate any organization Thyer works with.  Do Thayer-haters also hate the Post Office, after all, Thayer does use the U.S. mail?

Fondest Regards, Nemo

Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: hugakid on May 08, 2005, 09:07:00 PM
I am thoroughly disgusted at what I have read here today. I came on here to learn about Thayer because I heard about the child who died there. Unbelievable how you people talk to one another. You should truly be ashamed of yourselves.

Absolutely unbelievable!! A child died there??!!! Isn't there something wrong with that picture? Many complain of abuse there??!!! And still people choose to praise such a program?

Well, I'm not a person who was at a program. Ever. I've never put a child in a program. I only know of this through kids I care about whose abusive parents sent them to a horribly abusive place.

From what I can see here, people are trying so desperately to get these "pro-Thayer" folks to hear them when they say:

"Kids are abused at Thayer.
Kids are miserable at Thayer.
Kids lose a piece of themselves at Thayer.
A kid died at Thayer."

Somehow, for me, a person who has never been in a program, never looked for a program, who just knows they exist and the damage they can cause, looks at everything written, and given the information, and even the acknowledgment from the "pro-Thayer folks" that they know bad things go on there, that kids are abused there. They do not deny it. As a parent, there is no way in hell that I would ever for one second consider sending my child, if I were looking for a program, to a place with this type of history. EVER!!

You just have no idea, you pro-Thayer folks, at how stupid you sound for continuing to promote it and for hurting others who so desparately want everyone to know about the pain and damage programs can do to people.

You acuse people of taking drugs, still today. How do you know this and how dare you make that kind of statement? Shame on you. You're not as bright as you think you are. Your son did great? You think so now. Things seem great now. Eventually what happened there, because no matter what you think, he saw what happened there and he knows, deep inside of him, that what happened to his friends was out and out wrong. It is black and it is white. It was wrong, no question about it.

Some day he may have a very tough time trying to cope with the reality of what happened to so many others. And he may be haunted by what happened to them. And he may eventually get very angry at you for putting him there. He's in college? Not out long? Well, it takes a while, just wait. They don't tell all until about 5 years later, some sooner. But eventually it comes around full circle. Do the research, I have been, for the sake of kids who I care about. Not even my own!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on May 08, 2005, 10:22:00 PM
You are right as far as the academics not being the most important, but it is important overall- and even more so if your kid is 17 and flunking his Jr. year- what happens when he turns 18 and does not have a high school education?  that's not looking good for his employment opportunities, and college, well obviously that would be out of the ??
Again, in our case (and lot's of other kids too) they never got out of bootcamp- did you know that while a kid is in bootcamp they DO NOT GET ANY ACADEMICS AT ALL!!!!  Now, if that were a week, or even a month - but what frequently happens is that the kid is held in bootcamp for well over 100 days(their website estimation of the typical student is much less) or that they move to residency and then get put back into bootcamp.  They are doing good (per your family rep. every week, going to graduate- then something happens, they get moved back- looking good, going to graduate- something happens, gets moved back- this is a typical cycle around there too.  
Anyway- I believe you are the same writer that called Thayer a theraputic program.  They do not have any therapists on staff, and if it is requested it is an additional fee, so it is really NOT a theraputic school.  It is a bootcamp.  A hell hole, and I would not even go as far as calling it a school.  Actually go and see it- I was horrified!  We sent our son there on a recommendation from Parent Help (a company that per our contract was a "third party consulting firm" but happens to be owned by TLC).
We went to the TLC website to see this beautiful building sitting on what appeared to be a green rolling hill and green meadow all around it.  It was simply perfect.  (that was until we realized that they actually took an old picture of the building and put it on a windows backdrop and represented to all the people who went on the sight that it actually looked like that!)  The website has been changed- but I printed it all out and have copies for anyone to see.  We were also highly discouraged to bring our child there and were urged to use a transport service as we were told stories about what could happen if we tried to bring our child and he did not cooperate. Why not let the professionals handle it?  They could help us with that too.  Oh, they forgot to mention that they also own the Transport service, oh, the "third party billing company" 2b Enterprises- they own them too.  Sorry, forgot to tell you all these things when we asked you to sign this huge contract stating that they are basically NOT liable for ANYTHING.
I could go on and on for hours, but- the bottom line is IF they were so reputable why the lies and deception?  Try this out!  Call Parent Help
800-688-8706.  Tell them you have this problem kid, 15 or so, see if they don't refer you to TLC.  Then- see if they tell you that they are affiliated with them.  Also ask them some ?? about their medical procedures, or child saftey record or something- and see if they tell you that a boy died.  They recently deleted question(s) off their FAQ's about "serious injuries" or "deaths", because of course they don't want to have to say YES, so let's just "remove" it.
You check it out for yourself.  Someone we know recently called and tested it out.  They passed the "deception" test real good!
The education is certainly NOT THE MOST important thing- as I said in my last post- IF only 50% of the kids in a program (ANY PROGRAM) were being neglected/abused, or allegations of such were being made as to such- should a parent send their child there.  That's the bottom line ?? that should be answered- and the obvious answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Again, there are good programs out there that are without scandal- (and that IF something should go wrong the authorities have jurisdiction over them)- I believe that parents need to be REALLY careful not to allow desperation to drive them to a decision without a FULL investigation, even if that means by a P.I.
I still like Ginger's suggestion-call around to some major Universities and see what they think.
Or, maybe Nemo will cough up his two or three?!?
NOT, better call around!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on May 09, 2005, 10:38:00 AM
I agree with you speaking out on the business related entities. We contacted parent help because we were looking for a good "academic" school for us son.  He was not violent, he was not into drugs, he had never been trouble with the law, just had difficulties with education.  We were trying to find a school (and thought a boarding school was a right choice) to help him "academically".  Of course, Parent Help insisted that Thayer was the place for him.  I was hesitatent because of the boot camp side of it, but their pitch on that was " we address ADHD children with proper fitness and diet" and that is how we teach them to cope with ADHD without medication, and that is how we teach them to excel acamedically.

But, on the other hand, they also recommend Thayer to people that have children on drugs, gangs, etc.  What is wrong with that picture?  That isn't about helping the children, that is about making a fast buck!  Plain and simple!

So all of you anons that want to come on here and criticize us parents for "being bad parents", get a grip on life!  I was seeking out an educational facility for my son, and Thayer is what they recommended.

BTW....my son is the one who had his ankle fractured!  So yes, I am a bit biased when it comes to Thayer.

And, everyone is falling into the trap of Nemo...I still BELIEVE he is connected to the Thayer web, whether it be by employment, or otherwise....you know, that spider web that has different organizations all spun into one.

He is attempting to pul everyone into his games...and when that doesn't work, he chooses to lash out yall (us) by calling us names and incompetent.  Wow....that speaks volumes for his parenting skills!  When you can't face reality as it is presented to you, let's just lash out and call names!  Umm...if I recall correctly, isnt that what you do in the third grade?

And, I must point out Nemo..you have YET to respond to any question I have posed to you, your only response to date have been "general slurs" against any parent who speaks out against Thayer.  Are you afraid to answer my questions?
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on May 09, 2005, 12:26:00 PM
TLC Rescue- My son had the academic problem too.  He wasn't in a gang or anything either, although he was certainly disrespectful and depressed.  I know he was smoking pot, although I tested him for other drugs and he was clean?  He was hanging out with the wrong kids and flunking school- he did tell me about some of the kids there that he was afraid of because they had deeper-serious issues, like they were criminals or were in gangs.  I agree that there is something (lot's of things wrong with TLC!!)
Also- regarding the Nemo thing... He has not answered anyone's ??- and we can bet he never will.  
Did you like his last post where he was talking about hanging out on "different" sights when his wife is at work?  Alot of other childish remarks, lot's framed around the sex theme, so I think the sights are male entertainment ones.  Look at what he said about his son having sex several times a week as a success!  You gotta know he's tweeked.  Don't allow his poison to penetrate you, that what the 'recluse' did to the Reyes boy.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 09, 2005, 05:07:00 PM
Dear Friend:  If all you know is:

"Somehow, for me, a person who has never been in a program, never looked for a program, who just knows they exist..."

Then you should find something better to do with you time then wast that of those who have first hand experience.

Take a beer, go back to your TV and bother others.  

Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 09, 2005, 05:10:00 PM
This is the REAL Nemo.  I never posted:

"Did you like his last post where he was talking about hanging out on "different" sights when his wife is at work."

So, there is someone playing with you minds, not me.  By the way, my wife is a stay-at-home Mom.

The REAL Nemo.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on May 09, 2005, 06:34:00 PM
nemo, to prevent others from posting as you, why dont you post under your registered name you have on here?  when you click "post" or "respond", there is a field for you to put in your username and password...

Just trying to help out..that way things dont get jumbled up and people can't post and pretend like they are you.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 09, 2005, 06:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-08 18:07:00, hugakid wrote:

Somehow, for me, a person who has never been in a program, never looked for a program, who just knows they exist and the damage they can cause, looks at everything written, and given the information, and even the acknowledgment from the "pro-Thayer folks" that they know bad things go on there, that kids are abused there. They do not deny it. As a parent, there is no way in hell that I would ever for one second consider sending my child, if I were looking for a program, to a place with this type of history. EVER!!


Thank you :nworthy:

I think we sometimes forget that the people we're arguing with are patently insane and absolutely delusional about their perceived support in the community. Thanks so much for the reality check. It actually brought tears to my eyes.

Come to the woods, for here is rest. There is no repose like that of the green deep woods. Here grow the wallflower and the violet. The squirrel will come and sit upon your knee, the logcock will wake you in the morning. Sleep in forgetfulness of all ill. Of all the upness accessible to mortals, there is no upness comparable to the mountains.
-- John Muir

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on May 09, 2005, 09:05:00 PM
THANKS FOR TELLING IT LIKE IT IS.  YOU HAVE SAID EVERYTHING WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET ACROSS, BUT SINCE IT NOW COMES FROM SOMEONE OUTSIDE THE SYSTEM IT HELPS US TO KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE LISTENING AND "GET IT", UNLIKE SOME "OTHERS" THAT CHOOSE TO STAY "SPADED".

THE THING IS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE THEIR PARENT, YOU JUST HAVE TO CARE ENOUGH TO WANT TO PROTECT THEM FROM EVIL.
GOOD FOR YOU!  Kids need someone they can depend on, so I say thanks from the kids of the parents that don't care enough to do anything about it, or worse- that send their child to an abusive program ON PURPOSE- which does happen too :sad:
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 09:22:00 AM
You know Hugakid, hysteria is the enemy of reason.  

This attitude in your post a few back that Thayer is, by your (and some others') definition at least, this or that, and that anyone who questions this interpretation makes you "disgusted".

Well what if you're wrong? I mean a lot of people seem to disagree with you.  So I don't see anything at all wrong with asking, asking for experiences, asking questions about Thayer, its academics, anything else.

You imply that they are killing kids, I presume you mean by neglect (don't you?), well I would like to hear other takes on that too, since oppositional kids can in many ways do themselves harm---in anything but a lock up facility and in fact even there.

See I want to know the facts, I want to hear different opinions, in short, I'm not willing to accept that because someone like you is very certain and very righteous that they are in fact right.

So if you're "disgusted" I suppose you will remain disgusted, not much that I can do about that.

And I will continue asking questions.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 10, 2005, 02:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-10 06:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You know Hugakid, hysteria is the enemy of reason.  


Yes, it is. And sending a kid off to a private prison, even knowing they just killed somebody else's kid, is, by any measure, an hysterical response to teen angst.

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has.
-- Margaret Mead

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 02:32:00 PM
"Private prison"?  Would that be what many people would call a therapeutic boarding school that an acting-out  kid doesn't want to go to?  Are you one of the ones who thinks there are no limits on what a minor ought to be able to do without restraint of any kind?

They "killed" a kid?  Do you know this?  Fill me in please--- given the slander laws, I've got to consider that you wouldn't make such a statement without some proof and I'd like to hear what that proof is
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 10, 2005, 04:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-10 11:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

""Private prison"?  Would that be what many people would call a therapeutic boarding school that an acting-out  kid doesn't want to go to?  

That would be any private organization that takes kids (or adults, for that matter) from their beds at night, in shackles and drugged if necessary[sic] then holds them against their will and incommunicado.  

Quote
Are you one of the ones who thinks there are no limits on what a minor ought to be able to do without restraint of any kind?

Are you one of the ones who thinks there are no limits on what a parent ought to be able to do to their child without restraint of any kind?

Quote
They "killed" a kid?  Do you know this?  Fill me in please--- given the slander laws, I've got to consider that you wouldn't make such a statement without some proof and I'd like to hear what that proof is  "


Roberto Reyes did not kill himself. He had no choices in his activity, medical care, nutrition or anything else. Neither did the kids or lower level staff in who's 'care' he died. Keep abrest of the latest:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& ... yes+thayer (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=roberto+reyes+thayer)

I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there.
--Robert Frost, American poet

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 05:01:00 PM
As far as I can see this Thayer kid who died was bitten by a brown recluse spider or something related, had a pretty severe reaction and died. Your point is that the staff should have recognized the symptoms (which are BTW in dispute)and intervened

Yeah, I'm with you on that, evne with a pretty unusual set of circumstances it bears looking into--if in court, the school is found to have missed reasonably detectable signs and symptoms I think they have to be--- and will be--held liable.

But honey, that's a far cry from suggesting that they intentionally did it, that's what "kill" would mean to me

Tragic, yes, maybe negligent we'll see. But not intentional, and not the result of easily forseen or common circumstances

And for God's sake let's go by what is actually proven to have happened not what some pond scum percentage-chasing lawyer alleges.

See I've got a theory about people like you, their main deal is to put down schools that help out-of-control teens, they'll use or misrepresent any tragedy like this one to further that end---so I'll wait and reserve judgment on whether or not this was negligence or a horrible set of circumstances that is not likely to be repeated.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on May 10, 2005, 05:40:00 PM
So when they body slammed my son to the floor the as soon as he arrived at the school (which, by the way was unnecessary, we/and he thought he was going to a boarding school) and twisted his ankle till it snapped, was not intentional?  I think not! Any rationale person can see that the use of unnecessary force IS intentional and serves only one purpose, to boost their inferiority complexes!  Why would you body slam a kid to the floor and twist his ankle to oblivion simply because when he entered the building for the very first time EVER he looked a drill instructor in the eye.  Oh wait, that is forbidden.  And exactly how was he supposed to know this?

Then, on top of that, they refused him medical treatment and forced him to exercise on the fractured ankle until I arrived to pick him up.
Yes, very intentional!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 10, 2005, 05:50:00 PM
Well, your theory is off. What do I stand to gain by doing what you say I'm dong? You prove to me that even one of these kids would be dead w/o the Program. I don't believe it. In my own experience and dedicated observation, people who go through these programs are more often harmed by them than helped.

And it's not asif Roberto Reyes is the first kid to die under similar circumstances. Here's an incomplete list http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/the8 ... /id74.html (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/the8thstep-1/id74.html) (incomplete because the programs are not required to report deaths)

I don't think the Bundys or others intentionally murdered these kids. I think they're delusional in that they simply do not believe that the kids sent to them ever have a valid complaint about anything. They litterally can be at death's door and these dumb sons of bitches will write it off as manipulation.

Will they be held accountable for their actions? It's hard to say. Charles Long II at least got a slap on the wrist for his part in Anthony Haynes' death
http://www.flpba.org/private/arizona.htm (http://www.flpba.org/private/arizona.htm)

But, evidently, the people who continue to operate Buffalo Soldiers don't have a problem w/ that. They still list him as President/CEO of the organization
http://thebuffalosoldiers.com/theplan.htm (http://thebuffalosoldiers.com/theplan.htm)

I don't know if Roberto Reyes was bit by a spider or not. But I think it must have been one hell of a big and agressive spider to have fractured his bones and dragged him far enough to scrape the skin off of his feet. Those are facts stated in the autopsy report.

You want proof of the effacacy and safety of the methods employed at Thayer? Here's a good place to start:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9511&forum=7 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9511&forum=7)

The NIJ is already heavily invested in promoting and implimenting the Confrontational Therapeutic Community method. They've been in it up to their eyebrows since Bobby DuPont visited Synanon as head of NIDA and formally recomended that the method be propagated throughout the land over 30 years ago. He then acted on that recomendation by shepherding through grants and other funding and support for the likes of Art Barker's The Seed program and Straight, Inc.

Now, finally, they've taken some time (and, you know as well as I, a nice chunk of money that used to be ours) to try and document the success and benefit of this form of therapy that they've been hawking to us for a generation. If you read the study report, you'll find that they were unable to do that. They can't even call hit safe, let alone effective.

My only interest here is in giving a shout out to kids coming out of these places so they know it's not just their imagination and in providing a cuationary tale for parents who might otherwise get duped into shipping their kids off to people who make wild promises.

Fear believes--courage doubts. Fear falls up the earth and prays--- courage stands erect and thinks. Fear is barbarism---courage is civilization. Fear believes in witchcraft, devils and ghosts. Fear is religion, courage is science.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 06:18:00 PM
But the fact remains that lots of kids go to these kinds of schools (I don't know any from Thayer but I know several from other schools that are regularly bashed here) and come out stronger better people.

Oh I know someone bent on bashing this whole approach will say "Wait 5 years".  I know kids who are 7 or 8 years out doing great, glad they went, is that enough for you? Obviously not--when you're committed to not believing that these kinds of programs can't be good, not ever!

I just have the sense of a witch hunt/"don't confuse me with the facts"/true believer attitude among some posters.

And no one can prove that any one kid would have died if he or she did not go to a certain school: nobody can predict that way, but we can use our best judgment as parents.

If a kid is getting into majorly risky situations at home and has been warned and has been counseled and the family's been counseled and so on, I'm not going to let the descent go on. I'm just not going to do it, period. Because that descent has risks of its own that figure into my decision.

So we can argue about specific schools, I guess. A parent who chooses a boarding school like this can only act on the best knowledge available. Because tragedies can happen any time, mistakes can happen any time, and I'd much rather have a kid at home where I can act as a parent to watch personally what is going in.  I'm just saying that I don't buy that this is always doable.

On Thayer I'll wait and see, keeping in mind that it could be negligence--- and keeping in mind that not every tragedy that happens means that somebody was negligent.  I just don't buy that the whole thing is automatically as clear cut as some posters seem to be making it out to be
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 10, 2005, 07:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-10 15:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"But the fact remains that lots of kids go to these kinds of schools (I don't know any from Thayer but I know several from other schools that are regularly bashed here) and come out stronger better people.

Sure. Two years in the life of a teenager will do that to you. My daughter was a prime candidate for one of these places, except I knew better. She is a far stronger, better person now than she was @16. Plus, she doesn't have nightmares about having been in a program (or about getting chased down and returned to a program) and we have absolutely no difficulty over how we, as a family, handled the situation.

Lots of people come out of these programs saying the program saved them or that they'd be dead or in jail w/o it. But that doesn't make it true.

Quote



Oh I know someone bent on bashing this whole approach will say "Wait 5 years".  I know kids who are 7 or 8 years out doing great, glad they went, is that enough for you? Obviously not--when you're committed to not believing that these kinds of programs can't be good, not ever!

Oh, I think some kids do benefit from the experience. And, as I've said before, plenty of people grow stronger and wiser through horrific experiences. So I asked you to explain the difference between placing your kid in one of these toughlove hate camps and, say, shoving them off a cliff. I don't think you ever addressed that at all. Did you think I was being facetious? I wasn't. It's essentially the same thing.

There is a difference, however, between shoving your kid off a cliff, hoping they grow from the ensuing adversity, and allowing your kid to decide for themselves how close they should get to the cliff edge, whether or not to take your advice and admonitions on the matter and to learn from their own mistakes.

Quote
I just have the sense of a witch hunt/"don't confuse me with the facts"/true believer attitude among some posters.

I think you have a misconception about the numbers of people in each camp. If you go to the Program sponsored forums, they're censored. No strong dissent is tolerated and, quite frankly, nobody who's been through one of these programs and not totally affected by it really wants to hang around w/ you guys. Here all comers are welcome. What you see is what you get. If it seems slanted against the Program that's probably a fairly accurate reflection of prevailing opinion among those w/ firsthand experience.

Quote

And no one can prove that any one kid would have died if he or she did not go to a certain school: nobody can predict that way, but we can use our best judgment as parents.

And we can use our best judgements about the abuse that routinely happens in these programs. Even if, most of the time, they get away w/ it from a legal standpoint.

Quote

If a kid is getting into majorly risky situations at home and has been warned and has been counseled and the family's been counseled and so on, I'm not going to let the descent go on. I'm just not going to do it, period. Because that descent has risks of its own that figure into my decision.

Oh, I entirely agree w/ that! We never gave up on our daughter when she was acting crazy. We just knew better than to do anything that would place her at risk in our efforts to help her. We knew this because I have lived it firsthand. When you look up old highschool chums, if you ever do that, you probably find some doing pretty well, some not. When I try to look up old friends from Straight, I'm not exagerating when I say more of them are dead, in jail or on the skids than not. That's not true of those alleged bad influence kids I knew before and after the Program. And I don't think it's coincidence because so many other Program vets have described the same experience.

And that makes perfect sense. You know very well going in that what you're doing is radical; that it's sure to have a huge impact on the kid. How then can you expect the impact to be totally good, entirely under your control? It just doesn't make sense. The entire program is based on subjecting the kids to severe trauma and distress. Maybe they'll rebuild themselves and maybe the benefit will outweight the harm done. But that's a crap shoot and certainly no better than whatever most of these kids were getting themselves into by their own choice. The difference is that, outside the Program, they have the option of walking away if and when the damage is more than they're willing to bear. Once the thugs come for you, you're stuck for the duration.

Quote

So we can argue about specific schools, I guess. A parent who chooses a boarding school like this can only act on the best knowledge available. Because tragedies can happen any time, mistakes can happen any time, and I'd much rather have a kid at home where I can act as a parent to watch personally what is going in.  I'm just saying that I don't buy that this is always doable.

Well then you should look into the history and what little research there is available. The reality has not even a nodding acquaintance w/ what the Bundy's like to believe about what they're doing.

Quote
On Thayer I'll wait and see, keeping in mind that it could be negligence--- and keeping in mind that not every tragedy that happens means that somebody was negligent.  I just don't buy that the whole thing is automatically as clear cut as some posters seem to be making it out to be

"


Well, again, the Roberto Reyes story is all too familiar. When the same thing keeps happening again and again, at some point you can no longer call it accidental.

I'll tell you one other thing. There's a woman out there somewhere named Charlotte who, if she's still alive, she owes me her life. I was on the highest phase of my program and she was a newcomer. And she had kidney problems. One day, she got sick. Had been asking to see a doctor all day when I came in from school. Everyone she asked dismissed her complaints as manipulation; just trying to avoid herself by getting out of group... blah, blah, blah.

Well I looked at her, saw that she was pale, sweating, unable to focus, her lips were blue and she was terrified. I risked getting started over by arguing w/ staff and suggesting to them that, if she didn't see a doctor, "we" might have a dead kid to explain away. But it was just dumb, blind luck that on that day, I happened to be in a generous mood and willing to even consider the possability that the girl wasn't lying.

That's the way it works, folks. When you entrust your kids to a Synanon/Lifespring based program, you are placing their very lives in the hands of children and zealots who are too self deluded to even notice when a kid in their care is sick, injured or near death.

For all the same reasons why you attribute some vaguely defined dark agenda to my efforts, these same people simply dismiss any complaint, no matter how serious, that your child may try to make.

The fact is the fact, the program is evil, and every attempt to make
chicken salad out of chicken shit has resulted in a Chicken shit
sandwich, No pickle on the side could ever change that.

BINGO!

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 10:25:00 PM
...but it doesn't get past the fact that therapeutic boarding schools (at least some of them) lead to good results with a lot of kids.

Maybe you don't think that this should happen--it maybe violates your sense of how things should be---but that's the reality--at least based on what I see.

And yes, people can grow better and wiser at these schools---but, come on, that doesn't mean, as you try to set it up, that it was a horrific experience, like getting dropped off a cliff (why don't you drop the hysteria for God's sake)---maybe it was a confrontation and growth experience.

Maybe, consider this,at least for some, it was even a great experience, with life-long friends, emotionally moving events, memorable self-confrontations, hey, why would you want to take that away from anyone, why would you want to pull this pompous BS about "Well, maybe in 5 or 10 or 15 years, you'll see I'm right"---how about just celebrating that someone who was off-course found a way to be better.

I don't know exactly what happened to you, Synanon and all, but I have a sense that it wasn't what's what's going on in the schools I'm thinking about.  

Sure there's restraint of kids who are bent on self-destruction in the schools I'm talking about, and maybe hard work and emotionally painful passages---sorry if that offends you, sometimes kids need serious limits.

I keep getting the sense that there are a lot of people here who are really hostile to being adults. Don't know if you are one of them. But what I do know is that there is a serious negative death-energy that some teens get into--- and it is a blessing when there is a way for them to get out of it.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: SPEAKINGOUT on May 11, 2005, 11:12:00 AM
...but it doesn't get past the fact that therapeutic boarding schools (at least some of them) lead to good results with a lot of kids.

Please go back a couple of pages and read my post(s)regarding this.  THAYER IS NOT A THERAPEUTIC SCHOOL!  

Sure there's restraint of kids who are bent on self-destruction in the schools I'm talking about, and maybe hard work and emotionally painful passages---sorry if that offends you, sometimes kids need serious limits.

My argument is about neglect & abuse.  If you read the articles NOT written by a money hungry attorney, but actual quotes from the investigation on the boy's death you will find that there is plenty of evidence that he was neglected and abused there.  The "recluse" that bit him was just listed as a probable cause of death.
It is interesting to note that in autopsy not all information; for example: My mother died after suffering with pancreas cancer.  The autopsy report did not say ANYTHING about her terminal illness.  It stated simply that she died of liver failure and emphysema- (sorry- I'm not looking up the medical spellings for any of this stuff).  Anyway, the point is that these "symptoms of death" were in direct correlation to her illness which was NOT mentioned, you get my point I think.  The Reyes boy's investigation has many findings ALONG with the recluse spider bite.  It states clearly that it is probable that if he had been treated that he would not have died, isn't that enough for you?  Also- it is important to note that the fee to send your child to this place is about 4k per month.  They make the kids sleep on the concrete ground in a sleeping bag in a room that DID NOT HAVE screens on the windows therefore spiders abound!  There are so many other things that happen there including not allowing the kids to use the bathroom- is that humane?  My child was refused medical care TWO times also while in this program.  AGAIN- IT IS NOT A THERAPEUTIC PROGRAM- go back to my previous posts to explain why it does not qualify as one.  When you read the investigation you will also find that their medical officer (ms. Dorothy) who is also in charge of the kitchen and has to my knowledge (and per the report) no medical training (with exception to her EXPIRED EMT certificate.  

"I keep getting the sense that there are a lot of people here who are really hostile to being adults. Don't know if you are one of them. But what I do know is that there is a serious negative death-energy that some teens get into--- and it is a blessing when there is a way for them to get out of it. "

I know TWO boys who are in GOOD therapeutic schools.  They have counseling daily, they have open parental contact, they have meds if they need them, they are cared for.  They sleep in beds, they are allowed to use the bathroom when needed, they are allowed to seek medical care when needed, and they are getting an education.
Maybe this is the same kind of place you are talking about.  I believe they exist.  I also understand about the kids/parents and these horrific programs as my child was at TLC, I sent him there, and THANK GOD we knew something was wrong and rescued him.  The stories are endless on what went on there, and after hearing my son and then talking to other kids and parents who we never met, who spanned the time since they opened to present and the stories were SO ALIKE that you could not deny that the kids were telling the truth- you gotta believe them.  Also, again, go back and read the last few posts of mine, you WILL SEE direct quotes from a letter I recevied from the Child Protective Services, if this doesn't open your eyes to the lack of authority they have in that state I don't know what will.  So, as I said in that previous post- send your child to a State where they have jurisdiction so that IF anything does "smell" you can do something about it.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 11, 2005, 02:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-10 19:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"...but it doesn't get past the fact that therapeutic boarding schools (at least some of them) lead to good results with a lot of kids.



Maybe you don't think that this should happen--it maybe violates your sense of how things should be---but that's the reality--at least based on what I see.

No, I think that's your reality based on what you're told and what you choose to believe. In the more commonly accepted reality (i.e. that held by people who have actually been in these programs and those of us who have talked to a lot of these people) they do these violent and dangerous takedowns for trivial reasons, like daring to look an authority figure in they eye.

Quote
And yes, people can grow better and wiser at these schools---but, come on, that doesn't mean, as you try to set it up, that it was a horrific experience, like getting dropped off a cliff (why don't you drop the hysteria for God's sake)---maybe it was a confrontation and growth experience.

Or maybe it was torture and brainwashing.

Quote
Maybe, consider this,at least for some, it was even a great experience, with life-long friends, emotionally moving events, memorable self-confrontations, hey, why would you want to take that away from anyone, why would you want to pull this pompous BS about "Well, maybe in 5 or 10 or 15 years, you'll see I'm right"---how about just celebrating that someone who was off-course found a way to be better.

Because 1) I don't believe that very many kids benefit from torture and brainwashing. Maybe some tough it out and gain some character through adversity in spite of it. and 2) Even if you believe they save that proverbial "just one child", is it worth mindfucking or even killing another? I don't think it is.

Quote
I don't know exactly what happened to you, Synanon and all, but I have a sense that it wasn't what's what's going on in the schools I'm thinking about.  

Well, I was in Straight and we're talking about Thayer. Based on what people who have been there or who have sent their own children there have said, Thayer is, by far and away, a lot more physically brutal than Straight ever was.

Quote
Sure there's restraint of kids who are bent on self-destruction in the schools I'm talking about, and maybe hard work and emotionally painful passages---sorry if that offends you, sometimes kids need serious limits.

How do you equate looking someone in the eye w/ being bent on self destruction? Do you mean the kid ought to have figured out that he was surrounded by psychotic sadists and known better than to do something like that?  :roll:

Quote

I keep getting the sense that there are a lot of people here who are really hostile to being adults. Don't know if you are one of them. But what I do know is that there is a serious negative death-energy that some teens get into--- and it is a blessing when there is a way for them to get out of it.



"


I don't know where you get that impression. You're the one advocating these brutal practices which, all too often, lead to death and other very poor outcomes.

Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits.
--Dan Barker, author and former evangelist

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on May 11, 2005, 03:31:00 PM
and..btw...the restraints are not used only on "self destructive" kids.  as i have pointed out many times over, when my son entered the doors of thayer (we werent allowed in for the intake) and before the intake ever even started, they body slammed and restrained him for "looking the drill instructor in the eye".  

Please, HONESTLY, explain to me how that exhibits "self destructive" behavior.  My son was clueless.  He thought he was going to a boarding school.  He walked in, set his stuff down, stood up looked at the person standing in front of him (who happened to be a drill seargent) and then was body slammed and restrained for merely looking him in the eye.

WTF is wrong with that picture?

And people, this is just one example of how they misuse their position of power.  Denying children bathroom breaks so they are forced to soil themselves, then exercise in soiled clothes, leading to rashes on your body, etc.  What is wrong with that picture?

We SPECIFICALLY asked their procedures regarding restroom breaks because my son has a condition that requires him to urinate frequently.  Thayer was made aware of this.  Thayer was provided with documentation from his doctor for this, because I didn't want his frequent urination to be a problem.  Their response, oh sure, we give them a break every hour to use the restroom.  My son was given 2 restroom breaks in a 24 hour period, and this is on top of all the water they make you drink so you don't dehydrate after having exercised 14 hours plus a day!  Any NORMAL person can't hold that much water with only two restroom breaks, much less someone with urinary problems!

So you can tell me ALL DAY LONG that what they do is NOT intentional.  When you deny someone something as minor as a restroom break, that is done INTENTIONALLY.  When you force someone to lay in their on feces and have them washed off by a hose because they can't stand up, that is INTENTIONAL.  When you force any child to exercise upwards of 12 and 14 hours a day, that is INTENTIONAL.  BTW, they don't even bother to do so much as a physical to see if the child can handle it.  I think, at the very least, this should be a pre-requisite before bootcamp.

BTW...the "actual" cause of death was "rhambiomidyosis" (spelling?) secondary to spider bite....but, did you happen to know that another very cause of this disease, is also over exertion?  Hmm.....now, that couldn't be possible, could it?  Thayer doesnt really over exercise their kids do they?  I mean, any person, healthy or not, should be able to handle 14 hours of exercise, some days upwards of 18 hours...7 days a week!

Oh yea, I forgot, they "tell" you that you get Sunday's off...what a crock, Sunday is a special treat, you get to exercise in the SNOW during the wintertime, not even a jacket or gloves is provided either.  

You should also take a look at their "daily schedule" which shows approximately 4-6 hours of exercise a day...another crock!

Funny, every time I talked to my son's family rep on the phone, he was exercising, regardless of the time of day I called!  Some days I called multiple times and, yep, each time he was exercising.[ This Message was edited by: tlcrescue on 2005-05-11 12:40 ]
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 11, 2005, 04:46:00 PM
"Also, a police report said scrapes on Roberto's knees, feet, toes, elbows and back indicated "that he had been dragged."

Nemo, do you think this is OK or do you think the police made a false report? Or do you allow that maybe they are beating hell out of these kids and maybe you have been lied to about how the Program really 'works'?

[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 11, 2005, 05:17:00 PM
Funny, this definition NIH doesn't even mention insect bite as a likely cause or even risk factor for Rhabdomyolysis.  

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 000473.htm (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000473.htm)

O senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm and yet will make Gods by the dozen!
--Michel Eyqyem de Montaigne, French essayist

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: BuzzKill on May 11, 2005, 06:01:00 PM
This is very interesting Ginger.

Seems a good beating might result in this; or excessive exercise, even.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 11, 2005, 06:06:00 PM
Now the medical authorities in Missouri are in on some big "conspiracy" along with Thayer????

I can't help it if some generalized internet resource didn't talk about spider bites as a cause of rhabdomyolysis---all you have to do is google the kid's name and "spider" and you get a bunch of news and other reports that this was the cause---based on autopsy and health department reports

From what I read, the people who criticize Thayer are talking about not recognizing the condition and getting it treated in time: this is at least a realistic point, a question of fact, as they call it in the law: and it needs to be considered.  

Sounds like it will be considered in the court case that the parents are bringing and if the school was negligent in missing the diagnosis they will pay dearly to the parents and in their reputation.

I don't see anybody (except maybe you people at this site) coming up with Thayer as a cause of the boy's condition

You know what though: I'm done with you---taking my own advice that I gave to Nemo---there's no intent of communication here, no interest in mutual understanding--just an unhealthy mix of paranoia, purposeful misunderstanding for whatever reasons, ignorance, and smart ass remarks

Just haven't got the time for it when there are parents who really want and need help.  That's where my energy is, not in meaningless negative debates

As always I'll be keeping an eye on reports of abuse at any school I might recommend---particularly if such reports comes from a  rational, believable source.

Might be a good idea to remember, just for future reference: not every tragic thing that happens, is a crime, negligence, or even reasonably forseeable: thinking otherwise is how the country went so sue-crazy and why tort reform is just around the corner
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: The Liger on May 11, 2005, 06:34:00 PM
People always the say the same thing when they're losing an argument.  "I'm done here.  You people clearly can't see how brilliant I am."

I've been watching this thread.  One side of the argument is researching what they say and making reasoned and rational arguments.  Those people are program veterans.  The other side keeps repeating, "But it helps some kids," and, "You're irrational," over and over again.  Those people are program rookies and bad-parent apologists.

Oh, and one more thing, tort reform is just around the corner because Bushie and his Republican cronies want to help out their insurance company and corporate friends, not because too many people are sue-happy.  That's just a stupid thing to say.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 11, 2005, 07:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-11 15:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

Sounds like it will be considered in the court case that the parents are bringing and if the school was negligent in missing the diagnosis they will pay dearly to the parents and in their reputation.


If this had happened in a private home instead of a WWASP program, how do you think the judge would take it if the parents pled ignorance. "Gee, your honor, we just didn't know he was sick. We thought he was just a lazy slob, laying there, hardly talking, not even getting up to use the toilet for days."

The question is what kind of environment has to be present in order for one kid after another to be so neglected? Shit, would you recomend sending a kid to Mark Wardle's "new" wilderness program? Long as Utah sells him a license I guess he's OK in your book, huh?

You just don't know what you're doing. You're entiteld to your fantasies. I just wish you'd open up a psychic hotline and leave the kids out of it. That way you can revel in and make big bucks off of your fantasies to your and your consensual adult patrons' hearts' content w/o harming any children.

... and the group leader was a clown.
GregFL

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on May 12, 2005, 10:06:00 AM
Not setting aside that what happened to Reyes, have you even considered the allegations I have made regarding my son?  The boy who had his ankle fractured on day on 1, first 5 minutes in?  Or how about the fact that he IS ALIVE to tell me about being "dragged through teh showers".  He never met the Reyes boy, had never even heard of the allegations of this, yet he states it happened to him.

Coincidence?  I think not, I think it is a very plausible explanation for the various cuts/bruises my son had on his body when I picked him up.  Oh my, the Reyes boy had the same cuts/brusises?  What another coincidence.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 08:53:00 PM
I think it's the Shari-baby song:something like:

"But this morning tell her I give up,
 Tell her she wins if she'll just shut up.
 But it's the last time
 She's going to riding with me."

  Kinda like I feel about this forum.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 13, 2005, 10:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-05-13 17:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

Tell her she wins if she'll just shut up.


Are you asking for a gag order settlement?  :rofl:

Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Cptnemo on May 16, 2005, 10:19:00 PM
Hi Ginger:

I hate to ruin your day, but I agree COMPLETELY with your comments regarding drug legalization.  All making drugs illegal does is finance a fast criminal class which uses drug money as the source of their wealth.

Just like prohibition created one criminal empire, the anti-drug laws are creating another.

Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Cptnemo on May 16, 2005, 10:21:00 PM
Dear Friend:

By "kinda feel" about this forum, do you mean that you feel English is a foreign language to you.

Nemo
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on May 17, 2005, 11:17:00 AM
are you the same cptnemo that is been posting anonymously but signing his posts "cptnemo"?  Just curious..because I am getting confused and would like to know who I am exchanging dialogue with, whether it is different people or the same people.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on May 17, 2005, 01:07:00 PM
Nemo, that really doesn't ruin my day. In fact I'm glad to know it. I've said from the beginning (of my interest in drug policy) that the conservatives and law-n-order types will be the first to step up and make a real difference in this tragic comedy.

But first they'd have to come to terms w/ the realization that the neocons who have taken over the GOP are not their daddy's conservatives! And that's happening. I'm confident we'll soon put down this silly, myth based war and move on to the next silly, myth based war. Looks like next round will be fought over more overtly religious dogma.

As de dawg chases his tail...

I believe that all important matters have to be settled here, not in the clouds somewhere after we kick off.
--Billy Joel, American musician

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on September 13, 2005, 01:08:00 PM
Dear Nemo,

As I looked through this web site it struck me that your remarks were made with some intelligence. My wife and I were also blessed with a hard case child who was worth more than the life in which he was headed.

I also cannot commment on other peoples experience with Thayer but, my wife and I have seen our child and the school, and it appears to be working very well. We have a child who is grateful and working to his potential. Our own son has told us that he needed the regimented program and that he is feeling better about himself.

I thank you for posting the information you have given. Any program that makes a child stronger by not coddling them, and does not hit everyones warm and fuzzy buttons will be criticized.

I take this in stride because we also are seeing our child's growth. Thank you for being a positiive voice in this cesspool of negativity.

A loving parent
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on September 13, 2005, 01:26:00 PM
One name, fool; Roberto Reyes.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
John F. Kennedy

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on September 13, 2005, 01:48:00 PM
Quote
A loving parent"


You sent your kid to a highly abusive program in which there has already been one death, and you dare call yourself "loving"? You dumped your kid in a hellcamp when he needed you most. Shame on you.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: TheWho on September 13, 2005, 02:20:00 PM
Its a horrorable thing that one person has died at this school, but the missing piece is how many have been saved!!!  If the school did not exist how many would be dead -- none?  5 ???  10 ?? Try to determine the cause of that childs death and try to change it.  Education, training, policy change overseeing, staffing, new model etc.  Shutting down the entire Auto industry isnt a solution to saving people from dieing in auto accidents, They make Ambulances too.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on September 13, 2005, 02:46:00 PM
Nah, bullshit. It's not just the fact that this one kid (that we know of) died while attending Thayer. You should read up on the investigation. The circumstances which brough about his death were 1) horrendous and 2) likely still extant at Thayer.

They tortured that boy. Not only that, they coerced other inmates to take part in the torture and death of that boy.

You're a damned fool if you don't know the details. It's all quite public and easily knowable. And your kid will figure that out sooner or later.

Step 1. We came to understand that the government is powerless over people's private use of drugs and that the War on Drugs was making the government's life unmanageable.

--Scott Tillinghast

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: tlcrescue on September 27, 2005, 01:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-13 11:20:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Its a horrorable thing that one person has died at this school, but the missing piece is how many have been saved!!!  If the school did not exist how many would be dead -- none?  5 ???  10 ?? Try to determine the cause of that childs death and try to change it.  Education, training, policy change overseeing, staffing, new model etc.  Shutting down the entire Auto industry isnt a solution to saving people from dieing in auto accidents, They make Ambulances too.  "

they key word here being "accident".  You cannot possibly compare an auto accident to abuse.  Besides, if someone drives a car negligently and causes an "accident", why should the auto manufacturer be held liable?

Try another comparative to get your point across, because that one just doesn't fly.

And, to all you anons, why do you not register and provide your contact info?  You praise this place, yet don't say who you are?  Those of us against this type of abuse have no problem providing our information to show we are legit.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: TheWho on September 27, 2005, 01:32:00 PM
I guess my point is more comparative data is needed.  To say someone died from neglect at a TBS has no substance !!! A lot of people care but what should be done?  What is the cause?  The counselor, the school?  Is this an isolated case?  How about the football coach who sends a slow halfback around the track one more time in 90 degree heat and he dies.  Is 1 too many?  Should we shut the football programs down?  Close the schools?  What we should be looking at is how many kids are dieing at TBS vs high schools or kids that run away and end up dead.  How many kids will die if the parents/system sit back and do nothing?
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 06:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-27 10:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I guess my point is more comparative data is needed.  To say someone died from neglect at a TBS has no substance !!! A lot of people care but what should be done?  What is the cause?  The counselor, the school?  Is this an isolated case?  How about the football coach who sends a slow halfback around the track one more time in 90 degree heat and he dies.  Is 1 too many?  Should we shut the football programs down?  Close the schools?  What we should be looking at is how many kids are dieing at TBS vs high schools or kids that run away and end up dead.  How many kids will die if the parents/system sit back and do nothing?"


This is the oldest and most lame argument used by the pro-teen help industry.

Yes, one death if caused by abuse, neglect, exploitation and/or victimization is one too many.

These are NOT ACCIDENTS.

You would know that if you didn't have your head stuck up your progamized ass.

I'm sorry, but you are not doing families or kids any favors by falsifying the truth about the teen help industry which is grossly under-regulated and rife with allegations of abuse, and fatalities caused by criminal negligence.

 :eek:
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: TheWho on September 27, 2005, 07:11:00 PM
Quote

Yes, one death if caused by abuse, neglect, exploitation and/or victimization is one too many.



These are NOT ACCIDENTS.

 :eek: "


Okay so we found common ground, back to the football coach who victimizes the kid, forces him to run around the track in 90 heat while the rest of the kids take showers and he dies:
Based on your logic we should shut all the schools down or stop playing football in the U.S.

I feel we should address root cause and start by punishing the coach.  It wouldnt be fair to all the kids who have good coaches and benifit from the game
Next, start putting oversight in place to prevent this from reoccurring.  But to just shut everything down !!!  Come on !!!! That will never fly in a million years and you will just lose credability for waving that flag.  Try being proactive, constructing and try to push for improvements, oversight etc.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Antigen on September 27, 2005, 08:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-27 16:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

Okay so we found common ground, back to the football coach who victimizes the kid, forces him to run around the track in 90 heat while the rest of the kids take showers and he dies:
Based on your logic we should shut all the schools down or stop playing football in the U.S.


I won't argue with you. We should stop playing football. Soccer is just a more friendly, international sport. Plus, it takes less equipment and doesn't beat up the players half as much.

Seriously, though. If there were a pattern among a bunch of affiliated schools over years, kids were dropping left and right, such coaches were rarely, if ever, sanctioned in any meaningful way, then yes, we'd have a problem on the magnitude of what we're talking about.

In the more commonly accepted reality, if one highschool athalete dies under suspicious circumstances, the coach is investigated by default and, likely, would be fired. Who the hell wants a coach that kills kids? So his future in highschool sports is over. He'd have to go looking to the troubled parent industry for work. I wonder how often that happens?

The right of self-defense is the first law of nature . . and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.

--St. George Tucker, in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries

Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: TheWho on September 27, 2005, 08:17:00 PM
Thank you Antigen -- sometimes its hard to get a point across.  The problem needs to be quantified.  If we write to our congressmen and tell them about a boy who was killed in a boarding school it will be filed right next to the one who is trying to have Peanuts banned from the stores because his wife choked on one.
If you approach them with figures:
Example
"4% of all students at TBS are restrained and of those, 6% suffer brain damage and 1% die.  30% of all graduates relapse back to their old patterns, 60% move on to better lives and 10% drop out.

Nation wide less than 1% of the children die or are restrained etc, etc,"

This will raise eyebrows, the numbers the facts.  Trying shut places down is a dead end.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 09:49:00 PM
Bottom Line:  There is no excuse for abuse and until this country adopts a ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY for parental abuse by proxy, the teen help industry will continue to thrive.

Now ... to the program mental midgets ... when a car is defective and seriously injures or kills somebody, the manufacturer will call for a RECALL of the model and make of that car.  

Teen Help programs are a PRODUCT used by parents to control/change their child's attitude and behavior.

If a program seriously injures or kills a kid, that program should be immediately shut down, not allowed to stay open pending a criminal or civil investigation.  Why?  Because it is unsafe at any speed.

This is one of the REFORMS that anti-teen help advocates are pushing for.

Deal with it!

 :smokin:
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: TheWho on September 27, 2005, 10:17:00 PM
Quote

If a program seriously injures or kills a kid, that program should be immediately shut down, not allowed to stay open pending a criminal or civil investigation.  Why?  Because it is unsafe at any speed.



This is one of the REFORMS that anti-teen help advocates are pushing for.



Deal with it!



 :smokin:



"

Good start
Of course this will need to be applied to all TEEN PROGRAMS, football, band camp, soccer camp, boy scouts, girl scouts, baseball camp, all youth outreach programs, all boarding schools therapeuticor or otherwise, any program is unsafe if someone dies.
They are doing that now in Massachusetts.  If a child dies during a sport practice or a camp an investigation ensues and the camp or team can be shut down until cause is determined, maybe they can use this as a model
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 10:25:00 PM
Quote

On 2005-09-27 19:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote



If a program seriously injures or kills a kid, that program should be immediately shut down, not allowed to stay open pending a criminal or civil investigation.  Why?  Because it is unsafe at any speed.





This is one of the REFORMS that anti-teen help advocates are pushing for.





Deal with it!





 ::bigsmilebounce::
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Sin on September 30, 2005, 06:24:00 PM
To the anonymous person who is promoting TLC and organizations like it, I hail you as the greatest fool. You think because you're a parent you have the right to send your kid to hell? Lets see if you can even handle a day in a bootcamp like that. I bet you would collapse from exhaustion, and give up within 5 minutes. Especially when drill sgts work together and want to have "fun" the sad part is, being taken down isn't the worse thing. I was actually glad to be taken down so that i could at least have a few minutes to catch a breath! When a sgt. gives you a punishment, usually 100-1000 of a certain excersize they tend to add more on for their own amusement. By the way when your kid tells you that they "love you and thank you for sending you to thayer" what they really mean is that they hate your guts, and can't believe you sent them to craphole in some hick town. I faked my way through the program at TLC and so did everyone I know. You are ignorant, and you must have some megalomaniacal issues if you praise TLC.  People like you should jump off a cliff. :tup:
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: TheWho on September 30, 2005, 07:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-30 15:24:00, Sin wrote:

"To the anonymous person who is promoting TLC and organizations like it, I hail you as the greatest fool. You think because you're a parent you have the right to send your kid to hell? Lets see if you can even handle a day in a bootcamp like that. I bet you would collapse from exhaustion, and give up within 5 minutes. Especially when drill sgts work together and want to have "fun" the sad part is, being taken down isn't the worse thing. I was actually glad to be taken down so that i could at least have a few minutes to catch a breath! When a sgt. gives you a punishment, usually 100-1000 of a certain excersize they tend to add more on for their own amusement. By the way when your kid tells you that they "love you and thank you for sending you to thayer" what they really mean is that they hate your guts, and can't believe you sent them to craphole in some hick town. I faked my way through the program at TLC and so did everyone I know. You are ignorant, and you must have some megalomaniacal issues if you praise TLC.  People like you should jump off a cliff. :tup: "

Oh come on, dont hold back, tell us how you really feel!!!  We are all friends here.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on July 04, 2006, 10:46:00 AM
Ok, just found this site,thread, topic, etc.  So, no username yet-I'll pick one later.  As far as the 'perfect son'-and how good old nemo says to keep asking later, etc.  Just maybe his kid did what I did.  Now, I wasn't transported to Thayer, I had the misfortune of going to a WWASP program-big deal, same torture.  I realized I wasn't going home, so I worked it and stayed under the radar as much as possible.  Graduated and came home.  No, the good old computer and workbook didn't get me into a university, but it DID get me into a community college (paid for by my parents since I graduated!).  And then a transfer to a four-year school (Kean University in NJ if you must know).  From which I also graduated and got a real job.  At which point I dropped my parents cold-I told them what I thought of their sending me to SCL.  And told them to leave me the hell alone-and have rebuffed any attempt on their part to reconcile.  They weren't present at our wedding, they have NEVER seen my son-and never will if I have anything to say about it.  Did I use them? Damned right I did.  Payback is hell, isn't it?

Oh-and what did I do to get there?  Cutting school a few times, not so great grades, and not wanting to take the courses my parents thought were so wonderful-like advanced math or chemistry, things like that.  NO drugs, some drinking (never DWI though) and smoking. Real horrible kid, huh?  Now I'm an assistant manager in a department store and have a great life-not because of SCL, though.  I'm still doing what they didn't want me to do, but now they're OUT of my life.  Gee Nemo-maybe that's what your kid has planned!
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on July 13, 2006, 11:27:26 AM
Quote from: ""Sin""
To the anonymous person who is promoting TLC and organizations like it, I hail you as the greatest fool. You think because you're a parent you have the right to send your kid to hell? Lets see if you can even handle a day in a bootcamp like that. I bet you would collapse from exhaustion, and give up within 5 minutes. Especially when drill sgts work together and want to have "fun" the sad part is, being taken down isn't the worse thing. I was actually glad to be taken down so that i could at least have a few minutes to catch a breath! When a sgt. gives you a punishment, usually 100-1000 of a certain excersize they tend to add more on for their own amusement. By the way when your kid tells you that they "love you and thank you for sending you to thayer" what they really mean is that they hate your guts, and can't believe you sent them to craphole in some hick town. I faked my way through the program at TLC and so did everyone I know. You are ignorant, and you must have some megalomaniacal issues if you praise TLC.  People like you should jump off a cliff. :tup:


I mean its really sad at tlc...kids don't want to be there obviously and so they do what they are told just avoid punishment and fake their way through thr program.  So then they are punished for being fake, but they canot be "real" because then they get punished for that too.  It's a tough situation for every kid there.  Most kids fake their way.  There's not doubt about that.  When anyone from any marketing group says it changes kids' lives, they are speaking truth.  But they do not say how it changes them.  Being at tlc would make any kid more rebelious and want to hate their parents.  It's true.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2006, 10:12:56 AM
I vaguely remember you.

So your kid is in college?  

Wait.

In 5 or so years when the brainwashing wears off, you're gonna have hell to pay.

What goes around comes around.  You deserve it.

Julie
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on August 04, 2006, 08:11:50 PM
Honestly...I really hope it won't take 5 years for the brainwashing to wear off!!!  Hopefully it will be sooner.


Quote from: ""Guest""
I vaguely remember you.

So your kid is in college?  

Wait.

In 5 or so years when the brainwashing wears off, you're gonna have hell to pay.

What goes around comes around.  You deserve it.

Julie
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: 001010 on August 07, 2006, 08:51:54 PM
I've heard from exit counselors that it takes three, and that's about what it took for me. However, it took me 18 years to then truly deal with it and move beyond the mental torment... And I needed years of therapy.

 :idea: It's called raising your kid yourself.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: hanzomon4 on December 18, 2006, 08:37:15 PM
I've been looking in to TBS like Thayer, WWASP, and others for the past year and believe me the damage done to these kids is very real and complex. Nemo, your son may appear to be doing well but like others have said it will take sometime for him to come to terms with his experience. If you are a loving parent please be willing to take what many survivors are saying seriously, and be willing to listen to your son and offer him support if he comes to you to speak about his Thayer experience.

If any of you feel attacked at this site vist the isaccorp's (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/default.asp) website . It has great documentation and you can read up on many facilities like Thayer. One thing you'll notice is that the abuse claims are all very similar, across time and facilities. Many of the facilities use the same kinds of tactics. Even the death's that occur happen under similar circumstances and the following excuses are usually given.
  • "it was an accident"
  • "he/she was unhealthy"
  • "she was in the wrong program"
  • "he never complained of any problem"
Look at Martian Lee Anderson, if his beating wasn't caught on tape his death would have fallen under the same accuses. It's sad that it took a "video taped" death to cause Florida to rethink it's bootcamp system. However it seems that this kind of proof is the only thing the Government and parents(like yourself) will believe.

Someone made the comment that one death is not reason enough to shutdown the "teen-help" industry, and that any problems can be fixed. I'm sorry but the ones who keep fighting independent oversight is the teen-help industry. They are the ones who hire untrained staff. They are the ones who use fraudulent business practices to get kids in to their programs. The teen-help industry don't want it fixed because they are making good money with the current system. Also death is not the only bad outcome, ptsd is very common amongst kids who end up in places like Thayer. Suicide and drug use are other pitfalls many survivors face. Ptsd-related to stays in TBS may not make the headlines, but the impact on the survivor and their family is great.. even greater then death, because the dead don't scream at night, they don't have flash backs of abuse and humiliation, the dead don't try to kill themselves because they're in pain that no one acknowledges.  

Believe me and the people here when we say that the teen-help industry sees your children as commodities, money wrapped in flesh.
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on February 18, 2007, 10:39:32 AM
umm I just happened to read a statement advising us not to say Robert was MURDERED. Well, if ya want to sue me go for it. I am happy to get a group of survivors together, decent staff, some forensic experts, etc who can back me up on this.
robert was worked to death. He was MURDERED
I SAY IT
Wanna sue me? I have enough $ to defend myself quite well, and I welcome the opprotunity to  draw attention to the MURDER of robert reyes and thusly "force" the authorities to put you, Bundies and staff - the MURDERERS- in prison for the rest of your life.

just supeona my IP address, hunt me down (it will cost alot of $ for you do that  :D )
and sue
have fun in prison! MURDERERS OF ROBERT REYES
Title: My Son At Thayer
Post by: Anonymous on February 18, 2007, 10:39:55 AM
umm I just happened to read a statement advising us not to say Robert was MURDERED. Well, if ya want to sue me go for it. I am happy to get a group of survivors together, decent staff, some forensic experts, etc who can back me up on this.
robert was worked to death. He was MURDERED
I SAY IT
Wanna sue me? I have enough $ to defend myself quite well, and I welcome the opprotunity to  draw attention to the MURDER of robert reyes and thusly "force" the authorities to put you, Bundies and staff - the MURDERERS- in prison for the rest of your life.

just supeona my IP address, hunt me down (it will cost alot of $ for you do that  :D )
and sue
have fun in prison! MURDERERS OF ROBERT REYES
Title: Re: My Son At Thayer
Post by: psy on August 25, 2010, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: "Whooter"
Its a horrorable thing that one person has died at this school, but the missing piece is how many have been saved!!!  If the school did not exist how many would be dead -- none?  5 ???  10 ?? Try to determine the cause of that childs death and try to change it.  Education, training, policy change overseeing, staffing, new model etc.  Shutting down the entire Auto industry isnt a solution to saving people from dieing in auto accidents, They make Ambulances too.
yeah... i'm gonna have to qft that one.

Promoting Thayer?!?!?!?  Wow.
Title: Re: My Son At Thayer
Post by: 001010 on August 25, 2010, 02:23:23 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
umm I just happened to read a statement advising us not to say Robert was MURDERED. Well, if ya want to sue me go for it. I am happy to get a group of survivors together, decent staff, some forensic experts, etc who can back me up on this.
robert was worked to death. He was MURDERED
I SAY IT
Wanna sue me? I have enough $ to defend myself quite well, and I welcome the opprotunity to  draw attention to the MURDER of robert reyes and thusly "force" the authorities to put you, Bundies and staff - the MURDERERS- in prison for the rest of your life.

just supeona my IP address, hunt me down (it will cost alot of $ for you do that  :D )
and sue
have fun in prison! MURDERERS OF ROBERT REYES
 :rocker:  :cheers:  :notworthy:
Title: Re: My Son At Thayer
Post by: BuzzKill on August 25, 2010, 11:00:21 PM
Does anybody have a copy of the autopsy report? ISAC had one up, but of course it is down now along with the site. The records from the state agency that investigated would also be good to have.

Digging through my junk I found this:

Last fall, teen died at facility
Prosecutor: Boot camp won’t face charges
But doubts persist about Thayer
By STEVE ROCK
The Kansas City Star

KIDDER, Mo. — Eleven months after the death of a 15-year-old resident of a home for troubled teens, the local prosecutor said he doesn’t expect to file criminal charges. Yet questions persist about the death of Roberto Reyes and previous unrelated allegations of child abuse at Thayer Learning Center.

Caldwell County Prosecutor Jason Kanoy said he’s not convinced any criminal abuse or neglect was involved in the death of Roberto, a Californian who had been at the northwest Missouri military-type boarding school for less than two weeks. His death was attributed to a spider bite.

“The question boils down to: ‘Did somebody commit a crime to cause his death?’ … As of right now, I just haven’t seen that sticking out like a sore thumb,” said Kanoy, who admits his investigation was hampered by lack of access to the private facility.

In a response to a wrongful death lawsuit filed by Roberto’s parents, Thayer’s owners, John and Willa Bundy, denied wrongdoing. In a statement submitted to The Kansas City Star shortly after Roberto’s death, Thayer officials said general allegations of abuse were “ludicrous and false.” The Bundys, who opened Thayer in mid-2002, have not responded to several recent interview requests. But an attorney for Thayer, Rhonda Smiley, said in a Sept. 22 letter faxed to The Star that “Thayer chooses to try the facts of this lawsuit in the appropriate forum, not in the newspaper.” She called the allegations unsubstantiated.

Despite Kanoy’s reluctance to file charges, he said it “sounds like there’s (civil) negligence all over the place” in Roberto’s case.

A five-month investigation by The Star found that:

? According to a state investigative report, a former Thayer student said that Roberto had been “almost lifeless” for several days before his death. Two former students told The Star that Roberto had barely moved when they saw him in the days before he died. And a business owner who installed surveillance equipment at Thayer told The Star that Roberto had been unable to climb a short staircase the day before he died.

? A state investigative team said “it appears that those responsible for the safety and well-being of Roberto Reyes failed to recognize his medical distress and to provide access to appropriate medical evaluation and/or treatment.” A panel of county and state officials previously had determined that earlier medical treatment “may have prevented this fatality.”

? Two local experts in spider-bite care told The Star that, in a combined 51 years of experience, they had never seen a spider bite induce the condition that killed Roberto.

? Police reports reviewed by The Star show that since April 2003 at least seven persons had reported more than a dozen allegations of child abuse at Thayer to the Caldwell County sheriff’s office.

? Kanoy has asked the attorney general’s office to assist in a criminal investigation of the alleged abuse of more than a dozen students.

After looking at police reports and portions of the state investigative report on Roberto’s death, Johnson County District Attorney Paul Morrison said, “If half of what some of these people say is true, then there are some serious problems there that I think would probably allow for some criminal justice system intervention.”

Kanoy said he hasn’t filed charges against anybody at Thayer because some allegations don’t rise to abuse, some can’t be proved and others simply aren’t credible. And investigations at Thayer are difficult, he said, because under state law, private facilities that provide care “in conjunction with an educational program” are exempt from state licensing and regulation.

“We can’t get in the front door,” Kanoy said.

Since Roberto’s death, The Star has spoken with 14 former Thayer employees, 18 former students and the parents of 10 other former students.
Many of those students have troubled pasts, but their descriptions of life at Thayer generally were consistent.

Many of those students, as well as many parents and former employees contacted, noted a reluctance by Thayer officials to seek medical attention for sick or injured children. Many characterized the rigorous exercise regimen as capricious at best, sadistic at worst. Some described painful punitive measures.
Anjani Vyas, 18, of Pennsylvania, who attended Thayer from December 2003 until November 2004, said she had suffered through a stomach virus without getting medical care and had been forced to stand with her legs bent and her back against a wall for long periods. “My right knee still hurts to this day,” Vyas said. “I hated being there.”

Roberto’s death

A state social services investigative team spent more than four months examining Roberto’s death, then sent its findings to Kanoy.

The team’s report criticized the lack of medical treatment in Roberto’s case and included written testimony from a 16-year-old former student who currently lives in Florida. According to the report, he told a state investigator that Roberto sometimes couldn’t stand on his own to clean up after he had defecated on himself, that Thayer officials had dragged Roberto up steps and that he had seen dark bruising all over Roberto’s upper body before he died.

That student wrote that Roberto had been so lifeless he could not get off the floor to lie on a nearby cot. He also wrote that he had told a Thayer employee that the school “would be in a lot of trouble if a cop saw this.”

“I will be happy to speak to you anytime about more details,” the student wrote.

The student’s mother, Carol Rickless, asked that her son’s name not be used. She said she had contacted the state investigator, but her family has not been questioned since then by law enforcement or state officials.

In their wrongful-death lawsuit, filed in Buchanan County Circuit Court, Victor and Gracia Reyes alleged that Roberto’s failing health “would have been present for a significant period of time prior to his death” and that he would have survived had he received competent, timely medical care.

In court records, Thayer officials denied those and other allegations. The case is scheduled to go to trial in June.

The autopsy report identifies “complications of rhabdomyolysis” as the cause of death. It says the rhabdomyolysis, a breakdown of muscle fibers, probably was due to a spider or insect bite.

But Steven Simpson, a pulmonary and critical care physician at University of Kansas Hospital in Kansas City, Kan., and an expert in spider-bite care, said the mortality rate for spider bites is “exceedingly rare.” He said that if a bite was life-threatening, the person likely would be unusually sick within 24 hours.

Simpson also said that, in 16 years of practice, he had never heard of a spider bite inducing rhabdomyolysis. From his experience, the primary cause of rhabdomyolysis is lying motionless or even comatose for a lengthy period.

Another less-common cause of rhabdomyolysis is dehydration and over-exertion triggered by excessive physical activity, he said.

Gary Wasserman, a physician and chief of medical toxicology at Children’s Mercy Hospital, has written chapters on brown recluse spider bites for three toxicology textbooks. He wouldn’t discuss Roberto’s case specifically, but speaking in general terms, said he had dealt with hundreds of spider-bite cases in 35 years and couldn’t recall a single one in which a bite had triggered rhabdomyolysis.

“It’s not impossible,” Wasserman said. “But it would be very unusual.”

Miguel Laboy, the physician who performed the autopsy for the Jackson County medical examiner’s office, said the diagnosis was based on toxicology tests and other factors. He said he identified “an area of ulceration on the skin with infection, with inflammation” that was the likely location of the spider bite.

Police and autopsy reports also referred to several abrasions and bruises on Roberto’s body.

The state’s investigative report quoted witnesses who said Roberto had struggled to keep up with the rigorous exercise regimen during his short stay at Thayer. Some witnesses said he had complained of sore muscles or needed assistance walking and at times used other people as “a crutch.” It also said that, according to one witness, Roberto was forced to carry around a 20-pound bag of sand shortly after he had gotten to Thayer.

Two former students told The Star that Roberto looked normal shortly after his arrival. His parents sent him to Thayer after he had struggled with grades and run away from home.

Erik Ayers of South Carolina said Roberto had “looked horrible” as long as five days before he died. “You could tell something was wrong,” said Erik, 15. “He really needed help.”

James Young, 17, of Oregon, said he had seen Roberto “probably three times” over two or three days. “He was just lying there, like sleeping, all day,” James said.

Bill Sanders, who operates Security Protection Systems and Sanders Private Investigations in Paola, Kan., said he was hired by Willa Bundy in October to install surveillance equipment at Thayer. Sanders said he was paid more than $100,000, and that he and Willa Bundy have a dispute about an outstanding balance of about $3,000.

Sanders remembered seeing Roberto after he had collapsed at the bottom of some stairs. As school officials ordered him to get up, Sanders said, “Roberto was literally trying to climb up the stairs on his arms. He just couldn’t do it.”

Roberto was helped to the top of the stairs, Sanders said, collapsed again, then was walked to the dining hall by fellow students and school officials.

The next day, Sanders said he saw Roberto lying on the floor as three or four school officials berated him shortly before lunch. Roberto was eventually picked up and placed on a cot in a small room, Sanders said. Sanders walked into the room at least twice to work, he said, and “never saw him move once.”

Police reports said that on Nov. 3, Thayer officials found Roberto unresponsive and began performing CPR. They called 911 at 3:32 p.m., and Roberto was pronounced dead on arrival at Cameron Regional Medical Center about an hour later.

In interview excerpts in the state’s investigative report, the Bundys and some Thayer employees said they didn’t know or didn’t think Reyes had been sick before he died. One witness said Roberto appeared lazy, and another said he had had a bad attitude.

Records questions

The investigative report also said that interviews and evidence “suggest significant contradictions and possible deliberate falsification of written records” by Thayer officials. In court records, Thayer officials denied altering any written records, which were kept by Thayer staff about various students and their activities.

Kanoy said there were some “alarming” elements in the state report.

“I think we have a decent idea of how this child spent the last five or six days of his life. … I think he was in a world of hurt,” Kanoy said. “I think he was in an unfamiliar place with unfamiliar people who may not have been treating him as nicely as he would like. I think he may have been in pain. I certainly think he was uncomfortable.

“… Do I think there’s all kinds of fodder for a lawsuit? You bet.”Both Morrison and Kent Gipson, a criminal defense attorney and adjunct professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City School of Law, were alarmed at reports that Roberto hadn’t received prompt medical attention. “That’s particularly troubling,” Morrison said.

Gipson said, “My impression is: It looks like there is certainly enough there that a prosecutor could file charges if he wanted to.” But he added that prosecutors “have almost unfettered discretion. Obviously, there are some disputed things. … It would be hard for me to categorically or unequivocally criticize a guy for not filing charges based on what I know.”

For former Thayer employee Kim Gertz, who has some fond memories of Thayer, it wasn’t just Roberto’s death that he found so unsettling. According to the state report, he didn’t witness any physical abuse of students but wrote in a statement: “What strikes me most about my experience at Thayer is that after Roberto’s death, no one seemed particularly concerned, and policy was not changed. …

“I am convinced that I was terminated because of my raising the issue of (inadequate) medical care.”

Other allegations

Allegations of abuse and medical neglect began trickling out of Thayer long before Roberto died, according to police reports.

They came from students like Brittany Herrmann, who wrote in a complaint to the sheriff’s office in April 2003: “I have been dragged outside on the ground by my wrists after being pushed down by a sergeant. I have scrapes and bruises all over me, particularly on my arms and legs. … I am very scared in writing this, for fear of further abuse. … There’s much more going on with other kids.”

Herrmann, now 18 and living in Texas, said recently by phone, “It totally blows my mind that a place like that can continue to run despite the complaints that have been filed.”

Theodore Rights, a Hamilton, Mo., doctor who saw Herrmann for a possible urinary tract infection, wrote in a statement to sheriff’s deputies: “(Herrmann’s) hysterical cries were that she was afraid of what they would do to her if she went back. She wanted protection.” Rights told The Star he had seen no signs of physical abuse on Herrmann but he wrote to sheriff’s deputies, “I have witnessed evidence of neglected medical problems in two other cases.”

In January 2005, former Thayer student Elizabeth Ramirez, 15, of California faxed to the sheriff’s department several allegations, including:

? A student was “taken down” and said, “I can’t breathe,” as her face turned red and purple.

? A girl’s gums began to bleed because she was forced to brush her teeth for four hours.

? Students were denied medical attention for things such as infections.

She also sent the allegations to a state investigator.

Reached recently by phone, Ramirez said, “(Thayer) didn’t help me at all. I think it’s evil.”

Some allegations have come from employees.

According to the state report, former Thayer Director Gail Ledesma said she once got into trouble with John Bundy for having a student with a swollen and infected knee taken to a doctor. Another time, she was denied permission by John Bundy to take three girls to the doctor because, Bundy told her, the students would run away if they got the chance.

Kris Kessinger and two other Thayer employees went to the sheriff’s office in May 2004 and outlined an array of allegations involving more than a dozen students:

? A drill sergeant was “helping” a student do push-ups, causing the student’s head to bounce off the concrete.

? A student was tied up and dragged around a sand track behind an all-terrain vehicle.

? Students weren’t allowed to use the rest room and, consequently, suffered bladder infections, kidney infections and constipation.

Two of the three women said they were fired almost immediately, and they thought it was because they had contacted law enforcement. They said the third woman also was fired, but she could not be reached for comment.

Sheriff’s Deputy Donald Fuller said he found the women’s reports credible.

Fuller asked Kanoy to subpoena medical records that might substantiate the allegations. In a report he submitted to Kanoy, later included in the Reyes lawsuit, Fuller wrote, “I have a reasonable belief … the crime of abuse of a child has been committed at Thayer Learning Center.”

Kanoy said he subpoenaed records of Thayer students from Renee Claycamp, a Hamilton, Mo., physician. It’s in connection with those allegations that Kanoy, 31, the sole prosecutor in his office, asked for assistance from the state attorney general.

“We’ll work with the prosecutor in determining whether there’s sufficient evidence to file charges,” said Scott Holste, a spokesman for Attorney General Jay Nixon. “But that decision will rest with Mr. Kanoy, ultimately.”

Claycamp’s office referred calls to attorney Ed Proctor in Liberty. Proctor, who previously represented Thayer, said Claycamp was cooperating with the investigation.

Kanoy said his office takes abuse allegations at Thayer seriously. But some allegations don’t name the victims or are second- or third-hand reports. He’s not sure others constitute criminal behavior. One report, for example, says a girl was forced to sit in a plastic tub of urine for at least 2½ hours.

“That’s disturbing,” Kanoy said.

But is it child abuse?

“I don’t know,” he said.

There are also reports about kids being pushed and dragged.

“When you’re trying to motivate somebody who’s very obstinate, very anti-establishment, is pushing them and dragging them abuse?” Kanoy asked. “Personally, I don’t think so.”

Kessinger though is haunted by the memories of what she saw at Thayer. Now a full-time nursing student, she worked at Thayer from November 2003 until May 2004.

“I knew in my heart I’d be having this conversation one day about a child dying,” Kessinger said.

Lax regulation

Some provisions in Missouri law allow certain individuals to safeguard children if abuse is suspected. But other laws are so lax that it’s difficult for state agencies to afford protection to children in private facilities such as Thayer.

For example, law enforcement officials and physicians who have reasonable cause to suspect that a child is suffering from illness or injury or is in danger of personal harm may request that a juvenile officer take a child into protective custody. A law enforcement official or a physician also can take temporary protective custody of a child but only if there is reasonable cause to believe the child “is in imminent danger of suffering serious physical harm or a threat to life as a result of abuse or neglect.”

The Department of Social Services, however, cannot make unannounced visits to private facilities or remove children without a court order. And the Department of Elementary and Secondary Education has no oversight over private schools.

State social-service workers don’t have the authority to speak to students on demand, and they can’t shut down an unlicensed facility.

Officials with the Division of Children’s Services investigate allegations of child abuse and neglect with law-enforcement agencies and officers of the juvenile court. But even sheriff’s deputies have been turned away at Thayer, Caldwell County Sheriff Kirby Brelsford said.

Kanoy said, “There has to be a search warrant to get in the front door, or consent.” He’s been inside Thayer on one occasion, he said, but “consent has never been given” pursuant to any investigations. He said state officials “kind of get stonewalled” at Thayer, and that he’s never had sufficient evidence to pursue a search warrant.

In a statement submitted to The Star in December 2004, Thayer officials said, “No state agency or law enforcement agency has substantiated any improper activity at Thayer. These agencies have scrutinized Thayer frequently over the past 2½ years and found any and all allegations unsubstantiated or unfounded.”

Brelsford said that, most of the time, Thayer officials eventually let officers see the students in question. But it’s often several hours later, and sometimes he’s been told that the students are no longer at Thayer.

He’d like to see legislation enacted that would force schools such as Thayer to be licensed and regulated by the state.

“I’d love to be able to go to that door and walk in whenever I need to,” Brelsford said.

But Missouri is hardly alone with its lax licensing requirements.

U.S. Rep. George Miller, a California Democrat, is so concerned about the troubled-teen industry nationwide that he has introduced legislation that would provide more monitoring of facilities such as Thayer. The End Institutional Abuse Against Children Act would, among other things, provide $50 million to states to support the licensing of child residential treatment programs. A spokesman in his office estimated that there were hundreds of unlicensed facilities throughout the United States and that only about a dozen states — Florida, Michigan and Pennsylvania, among them — have any type of licensing requirements.

The Washington, D.C.-based Child Welfare League of America submitted a letter to Congress in August urging the Government Accountability Office to conduct a nationwide investigation. It urged Congress “to take action to ensure the safety of the children” and said “allegations of neglect and abuse at many of these programs include … the employment of vigorous physical means of restraint or individual seclusion or isolation.”

The letter also said, “Since there is little public oversight of these residential programs and camps for troubled children and youth, we do not yet know the full scope of the problem.”

The Child Fatality Review Panel, composed of county and state officials and charged with looking into all child deaths in the state, addressed the lack of state oversight in its final report on Roberto’s death: “The panel feels appropriate legislation dealing with access to the facility by juvenile authorities, social services and law enforcement should be enacted to help remedy the lack of cooperation.”

State Sen. Pat Dougherty, a St. Louis Democrat who has proposed legislation in the past that would regulate schools such as Thayer, said he doesn’t expect Roberto’s death to be a catalyst for legislative change “unless there’s a lot of public outcry.”

“Missouri legislators should step up to the plate and engage this and find a solution,” Dougherty said. “But it’s so easy to push it back and to ignore it, because people jump up and cry, ‘Here’s big government again.’”

Sen. Matt Bartle, a Lee’s Summit Republican, said state intervention wasn’t necessarily a cure-all. “A lot of times, I think, state licensing gives the appearance of oversight, and the reality is: There’s very little,” he said.

Sue Warner of Connecticut, whose son attended Thayer for four months in 2003, said Missourians needed to wake up. She submitted a lengthy letter to the Missouri attorney general’s office two years ago, outlining various complaints:

? Her son hadn’t received medical care for his injuries.

? She hadn’t been advised that Thayer and Parent Help, the referral service that recommended Thayer, were both owned by the Bundys.

? The academics of the program were “inaccurately and inconsistently communicated.”

Nothing ever came of her complaints, she said.

“I’m far away, obviously, but it’s become obvious to me that people (in Missouri) almost have their hands over their ears and their eyes and don’t want to know,” Warner said. “I think that’s a travesty.”


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The Star’s Scott Canon contributed to this report. 






Listed below is the contact information for the Missouri Prosecuting Office. 
Advocates and Activists should also write Missouri government officials urging them
to  stop passing the buck on the care and treatment of youth in PRIVATE (meaning parent-funded) residential treatment facilities, schools, camps and programs.

Missouri Office of Prosecution Services

The Missouri Office of Prosecution Services is a state governmental entity established to assist Missouri's prosecuting attorneys. MOPS is located in the Attorney General's Office in Jefferson City. The office provides technical assistance, training and continuing legal education for prosecutors.

Elizabeth L. Ziegler is the executive director.

Missouri Office of Prosecution Services
P.O. Box 899
Jefferson City, MO 65102
573-751-0619
573-751-1171 FAX

E-mail Elizabeth Ziegler

CALDWELL COUNTY PROSECUTOR
Jason Kanoy
P.O. Box 8
Kingston, MO 64650
816-586-2511
816-586-3084 FAX

MISSOURI OFFICAL STATE GOVERMENT OFFICES WEBSITE
Email State Attorney General, Congress and House Reps, etc.