Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Deborah on August 19, 2003, 09:42:00 PM
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The question that continues to baffle me is:
Why are white, middle-class, religious/secular, all-American, apple-pie folks
willing to turn their kids over to MORMONS ??
Is this some kind of big cosmic joke... "Ya'll exhiled us to the desert, time for payback. Give us your kids and your money."
They don't even have a gun held to your heads.
It's really quiet humorous.
Deborah
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no, you didn't just play the race card, did you?
shame on you blaming every mormon for child abuse. that's just like catagorizing all of the catholic preists as pedophiles.
i know you didn't just do that
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What race card?
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Deborah.
Do you fear a religion outside your own? Let me guess, Christian? If some of the staff were Christian, Jewish or Buddhist would it make a difference?
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No, I don't fear religions. I do fear the interpretations of idiots within their particular religions, if those beliefs will affect me or others I care about.
If you are going to abdicate responsibility for your child, wouldn't you want to know something about the values and beliefs of the person(s) you're putting in charge?
There may be more similarities than differences between Mormonism and other religions. Seems so to me, but I don't know.
What I do know is that women and children have not historically been treated with respect.
The following links give some insight into the Mormon values that might be passed on to your children, or at the very least, your child will be a victim of. They seem to have no problem with abusing children. Something to think about, or, it would be for me.
Deborah
http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/w ... tm?FACTNet (http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/women/mormonsex3.htm?FACTNet)
The following article from the New York Times clearly illustrates a recurring problem within the Mormon Church?child abuse. Child abuse is consistently higher in Utah than in the nation as a whole. It is a blight on Mormonism. Utah social workers have been quoted as being "blackly pessimistic" about the problem in their state.
http://www.mormonalliance.org/caserepor ... 3p1c01.htm (http://www.mormonalliance.org/casereports/volume3/part1/v3p1c01.htm)
For example, child sexual abuse among Mormons is unquestionably a heinous sin; rules in the Church strongly prohibit it. Thus, it is not first-level abuse. But are there rules or practices that unintentionally foster child sexual abuse in Mormonism? Is it possible that the strong emphasis on the authoritative patriarchal system can do so? Does the emphasis on obedience to authority do so? Does the idealization of Church authorities encourage it? Do others tend to shift the blame from a perpetrator in a position of authority to a victim who has little or less authority?
The long version is more complex but necessary if spiritual abuse is to be distinguished from mere insults, violence, or other forms of hurt: Spiritual abuse is the persistent exploitation by spiritual or ecclesiastical leaders in a religious system of an imbalance of power between the leaders and the followers, whereby the leaders maintain control through the exercise of their authority without adequate accountability by taking actions, making definitions, creating rules, or rendering judgments that are unfair, unequal, or nonreciprocal, while taking advantage of or promoting the inexperience, ignorance, fear, confusion, weakness, or delusion of the followers, in order to perpetuate the power imbalance and thereby gratify temporarily the demands of the leaders or the perceived interests of the ecclesiastical institution to the detriment and at the expense of the spiritual needs, rights, entitlements, dignities, or empowerment of the members.3
Church emphasis on the Word of Wisdom has provided members with great health benefits. Certainly I believe that obedience to the Word of Wisdom should be encouraged. But such obedience should be given freely, not coerced by making it the price tag to saving ordinances. Similarly tithing is a way to give to the Church, the world, and to God. These are worthy goals. But if saving ordinances are granted only on condition of paying tithing, then how is tithing different from purchase or a bribe?
[Do the last two paragraphs sound familiar? While they are identifying "abuses" in the church, perpetrated by "leaders", the same could be said about WWASP, huh?]
http://www.mormonalliance.org/caserepor ... eports.htm (http://www.mormonalliance.org/casereports/casereports.htm)
Case reports of Child Sexual Abuse, among others.
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Deborah - that's a lot of words for little of nothing important to most people. If you're referring to the OLD mormon mindset of women being less than a man, that probably still exists somewhere. A lot of men, regardless of religious preference, are in that category.
Mormon women in modern day society are respected, work in jobs outside the home, including law enforcement, management, own their own companies, etc.
Try again. ::heart::
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Just like a WWASP/Mormon politician to change the focus of discussion.
So, mormon women are able to work... that's some liberation. Many, I read, are leaving the church due to the continuance of sexism. It's not old news.
We're not here to discuss the liberation or modern Mormon women.
The issue is that of child abuse. If you bothered to read, the highest incidence of child abuse in the nation among Utah Mormons. That's significant and pertinent to me, when considering the fact that many of the program owners and the State Lic Dir are Mormon. Might tend to skew the way they hold children and what is or is not appropriate treatment.
There is also the matter of child sexual abuse which happens all too often among Mormons. There record is rivaling the Catholics.
This may not be important to many people. It's certainly something many others would want to consider before turning their kids over to them.
Deborah
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Highest incidence in Utah? Most of the state is Mormon, so that would make sense. Are you saying that programs in Utah are abusive because the staff are primarily Mormon? It may not be obvious to you, but in reading your posts you are afraid of Mormons and you don't even know them? Is that correct? Reading is believing I suppose. Now, on the other hand, I live in a state with many Mormons (not Utah) and their family values are of utmost importance. They are good people and I wouldn't have known they were Mormon hadthey not told me. I just knew something incredibly different around them. The love and caring for their children is very apparent.
Are there abusive Mormons? Are there abusive Catholics, Christians, Jews, etc.? What you fear is your own mirror of what you have within you...as Don Miguel Ruiz says in his book, The Four Agreements. You do so much reading, this may be a good start to get over yourself.
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I've read the book.
You're in violation of #3- Don't make assumptions?
I am not afraid of Mormons.
They, particularly the ones running programs, are not people I'd want my child spending time with. Just as I wouldn't want my child in the care of KKK members or rabid fundamentalists. It's all about values.
The stats on child abuse among Mormons and the stories of abuse in Utah programs, is striking to me. And not something I'd take lightly. Even within the church there are those who are trying to identify what it is about the religion or tradition that supports the abuse of children.
Do you know Aaron Bacon's story?
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:RX ... n&ie=UTF-8 (http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:RXEdJyzkHGQJ:courtlink.utcourts.gov/opinions/appopin/fisher12_98.htm+%22aaron+bacon%22+%2B+journal&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)
He was severely abused, and died in a Utah program run by Mormons. Had the Lic Dir acted with integrity, who was also Mormon, the boy might be alive today.
http://web.outsideonline.com/magazine/1 ... _deth.html (http://web.outsideonline.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html)
Stettler, a devoted Mormon, knew Jaggar and Henry well and says that he trusted them, as fellow Saints, implicitly. After Bacon's death, Stettler's confidence in Jaggar and Henry remained steadfast. He quickly cleared North Star of any wrongdoing and allowed the program to stay in business--which it did for six months, until the state of Utah filed criminal charges in October 1994.
That is not the last time Stettler overlooked violations made by his fellow saints. Looking at his history, my guess is that it wasn't the first either.
After reading the court document, you tell me how these guys can possible qualify for the status of "Saints". You tell me if Henry and Jagger are caretakers or role models you would choose for your child. Perhaps they would benefit from reading the 4 Agreements.
1) Be impeccable with your word;
2) Don't take anything personally;
3) Don't make assumptions;
4) Always do your best.
I might add that Henry got a deferred sentence with probation and was not allowed to work with youth. All the Mormons involved received minimal punishment. The scapegoat was a unemployed Native American they had picked up on the rez.
Shortly after the ordeal, Henry and his mother were working for another program, he in violation of deferred adjudication.
Sounds like you might be in violation of #2 as well. I'm sure there are some wonderful Mormons. Considering the abuse stats and the reports of abuse at programs, it doesn't sound like the better saints are the ones running them.
Deborah
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Forces of habit: Addiction tough to beat
By Jerry D. Spangler and James Thalman
Deseret News staff writers
Editor's note: Abuse of alcohol and drugs is a Utah epidemic. One out of 20 Utahns has a substance abuse problem needing treatment. The Deseret News examines addiction in a five-part series focused through the eyes of former and current addicts as they run the gantlet of political, social, economic and medical factors associated with those addictions.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,380007229,00.html (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,380007229,00.html)
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sorry, here is the complete link.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,380007229,00.html (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,380007229,00.html)
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Deborah - you seem to be defending something that is your personal stuff. Sit with what you said for a day or two and really see what I'm reading with an open mind. Is that possible? I'm reading that you wouldn't want your children around a different religion which happens to be Mormon. Do you have personal experience with Mormons?
I know, get on a plane to St. George UT. Take a walk down the streets of town and report back who is Mormon and who isn't. Talk to families you've identified as Mormon and share your concerns with them.
What I find laughable :rofl: is they have the strongest family values of any religion, outside of Buddhism, that I know personally.
Your words in this thread are worthless until you have personal experience to draw from. You can post "stories" all day. You are very good at that!
Being raised as Catholic, I used to feel the same way you do. There's a great big world outside your little computer. And it's a lot more interesting.
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The stats on child abuse may be higher in Utah because of a lower benchmark for what is considered abuse, resulting in more reports. In some states, like maybe Tennessee, it is okay for a child to be spanked in school. It may not be so in Utah. Don't know for sure, just speculation.
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Anon, you're blowing this WAY out of proportion and addressing issues that aren't pertinent to the point I made; and attempting to make this a prejudice issue. I feel the point is valid. If you don't, then go about your business. Who's "defending" here?
I would not voluntarily turn my child over to anyone whose religious values/beliefs include the abuse of children. Or to anyone who had different values/beliefs than my own.
The stats on Mormons and abuse (go back and read the article) indicate a high occurance of, and possibly an acceptance of, physical and sexual mistreatment of children.
To me, that is important. That is my opinion. I would like to prevent the abuse or death of another teen, under the guise of "therapy". And in case you don't follow the Industry... Utah- Mormon run programs- lead the way in total number of deaths.
What's your stake in this? What are you defending?
I don't personally have anything against Mormons.
I have friends and acquaintences of all persuasions. That doesn't mean I'd turn my kid over to any of them to raise with their values.
Deborah
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The stats on child abuse may be higher in Utah because of a lower benchmark for what is considered abuse, resulting in more reports. *************
Speculate on this. Ya think the benchmark is going to be lower in a state that allows 12 and 13 year old girls to be forced into pre-arranged marriages to older male adults in the family.
Gotta love those family values.
I certainly would entertain the possibility if you want to do the research which would prove a lower benchmark.
Did ya read the article?
One little excerpt:
This is the religion of polygamy, patriarchy, and Blood Atonement. Such a culture simply doesn't have the ability to wave a wand of psychobabble over the Church and make everything right. Mormon social problems are systemic.
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Deborah wrote this:
"I would not voluntarily turn my child over to anyone ......who had different values/beliefs than my own."
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Deborah - are you Lonely??? On the other hand, that statement means your children never went to school, or away from home activites, etc., without you being there? YOU are the only one that has YOUR values and beliefs. That's what's so great about being in this world. Everyone has a different belief. Should I compile a list of the top 100 values and see if everyone, even within the same family, have exactly the same values?
Your statement reeks of fear.
Where is/was your child(ren) incarcerated? And, what created the "against my will" statement? I've looked in the archives, but you've posted many, didn't see it. Maybe this would help me understand where you're coming from. Just a short response is requested.
::heart::
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Deb is making some good points you'd do well to give consideration.
I think some of you are overstating her arguments for the sole purpose of making her 'seem' unhinged on this issue; when you know full well she isn't as off the mark as you'd like to portray her.
From my perspective as far as "the Mormon Thing", I had assumed a strong Mormon presence sence the program was based in Utah. I didn't mind this; as long as there was no indoctrination taking place; And I was assured none was.
This wasn't so. The kids were treated like a captive mission field, by at least some of the employees.
This I minded very much.
Mormonism is a very complicated and fascinating subject. Personally, I have come to feel that understanding the faith of the program owners and principle employees can explain a lot about how and why the program operates the way it dose. There are many similarities with how the program manages the parents and how the LDS Church manages its members - In my opinion.
I have come to feel its not possible to separate the two. I think Mormonism is to the program, what Masonry is to Mormonism - the answer as to how it came to be.
Many very fine people will strongly disagree. I am sorry to offend anyone with this view, however, I do think a solid case can be made to support it.
I suggest anyone who'd like to better understand some of what I'm saying, read, "The God Makers," by Dave Hunt and some other fella whos name I can never remember.
Amazon carries it.
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Smoke Screen is continuing! Ever since the purpose of MOST of this particular board was to talk about abuse at boarding schools, in particular WWASP, and it has been proven MOST of the lies and rumors originated from PURE, now it's time to slam a religion to make yet another false assumption??!!
What's next? The weather?
It's VERY clear to me where this thread's originator is coming from.
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On 2003-08-20 14:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Highest incidence in Utah? Most of the state is Mormon, so that would make sense. Are you saying that programs in Utah are abusive because the staff are primarily Mormon? It may not be obvious to you, but in reading your posts you are afraid of Mormons and you don't even know them? Is that correct? Reading is believing I suppose. Now, on the other hand, I live in a state with many Mormons (not Utah) and their family values are of utmost importance. They are good people and I wouldn't have known they were Mormon hadthey not told me. I just knew something incredibly different around them. The love and caring for their children is very apparent.
Are there abusive Mormons? Are there abusive Catholics, Christians, Jews, etc.? What you fear is your own mirror of what you have within you...as Don Miguel Ruiz says in his book, The Four Agreements. You do so much reading, this may be a good start to get over yourself. "
?? What assumption?? Your start of this thread isn't an assumption that you fear Mormons. Did you not write it?
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On 2003-08-21 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Smoke Screen is continuing! Ever since the purpose of MOST of this particular board was to talk about abuse at boarding schools, in particular WWASP, and it has been proven MOST of the lies and rumors originated from PURE, now it's time to slam a religion to make yet another false assumption??!!
What's next? The weather?
It's VERY clear to me where this thread's originator is coming from.
"
Carey, it's very rude to post as Anonymous, when you do have your own log-in.
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**On the other hand, that statement means your children never went to school, or away from home activites, etc., without you being there?
Are you attempting to suggest there is no difference between public/private school and 24/7 teen warehousing facilities? I think you know well the differences- just another attempt to divert the discussion to your agenda.
**YOU are the only one that has YOUR values and beliefs.
That is probably true to some extent. I'm addressing values relating to the treatment of children, and I believe there are many that share my values.
**Your statement reeks of fear.
I don't recall asking you to analyze me. I'm getting bored with your defensive reactions, petty comments, and shade-tree analysis. You take a couple of RR seminars and suddenly you're a lay psychologist.
If you want to debate the issue of this thread, then present valid information that refutes the information I presented- more than "I know a family". And, lay off the analysis, which is consistently off base, and unwelcomed, if that matters to you. Your wasting space- pissing and moaning about your erroneous assumptions.
Perhaps your next seminar should be on critical thinking and/or how to debate... but then that would be contrary to the purpose of the seminar??
Deborah
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Deborah - you didn't answer the question posed to you? Where were/are your child(ren) incarcerated, etc. Is the above response yet another smoke screen??
As for seminars, etc., maybe I will go, personal growth is better than NO growth.
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On 2003-08-21 16:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah - you didn't answer the question posed to you? Where were/are your child(ren) incarcerated, etc. Is the above response yet another smoke screen??
As for seminars, etc., maybe I will go, personal growth is better than NO growth."
Carey, you really have to quit this. Your writing style gives you away, and even the paper bag doesn't protect you.
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Did a search wwasp + mormon and look what returned.
http://pub57.ezboard.com/fwevebeenthere ... D=22.topic (http://pub57.ezboard.com/fwevebeentherefrm7.showMessage?topicID=22.topic)
What you are seeing is that most of the programs in the US and some in other countries evolved from former CEDU employees who left and adopted the same program or very similar program and ideology. I would direct my attention on this matter to The Brown Schools: The current CEDU parent. Since Brown took over, it seems that it has been overrun by Mormons all intent on imposing their religious ideology on the staff and kids, no caffene, no matrubation, and a lot of rigid, ridiculous, insignificant rules that have no basis exept in producing a toxic shame and blind obedience in the children. Kids can't attend Church or religious service of their choice. They (the kids) are made to sit in corners, isolated from interaction from others for weeks at a time for small infractions. Visits with their parents are removed for punishment when they have not seen their parents for as 6 months. Simply talking to a peer can add another two weeks sitting at a table or desk. It is purely illegal to do this, and the Idaho State inspectors in Boise have been repeatedly notified, yet they do nothing as thay have done for many years. Therefore, I suspect that there is a Mormon church connection and the state inspectors are probably Mormon, as Idaho is as dominated by Mormon ideologies as is Utah. The main ingredient is SHAME. They rule by SHAME. The staff teach it to the kids, and the kids do it to each other. Therapists try to intervene on behalf of the kids and are told what they want to hear, then ignored. The worst Mormon culprits Tim M. who is in charge of the programs in the Northwest, Todd D. at Boulder Creek - LaTeresa P. @ BCA is probably not Moromn, but she is bonded in friendships with the Mormoms and therefore will do nothing to stop these and others including Bill B. and what I call the "stepford wives" of the LDS at CEDU. They also have Jehovahs Witnesses and plain religious fundamentalists with no college education. This situation is horrible for the kids who are Jewish, non-white, Eastern in their beliefs, or Gay - pray for them all. Therapists are against all of this at all of the schools, but they are powerless against the do-nothing, say nothing, confront-nothing Mormom manager. Parents need to see what happens at the schools. They need to see the self-rightous patriarchy doing spiritual violence to these children, as it does on a daily basis.
http://pub57.ezboard.com/fwevebeenthere ... D=18.topic (http://pub57.ezboard.com/fwevebeentherefrm1.showMessage?topicID=18.topic)
i wanted to make others aware of the situation in provo, utah. i was sent to a charter school, called Provo Canyon School. 6 years later, i am still coming to terms with all i endured there. my first 2 months i was not let outside once. there was one tiny window in our unit, facing a brick wall. i was a privateley funded student, my parents were paying $229 per day, for 17 months. i got rather close with my therapist (whom i saw once a week), but i don't know what he was telling my parents, because the eight months that mom and dad originally planned on keeping me there kept being extended and extended. i suffered insurmountable psychological abuse at the hands of the "counselors", who were nothing more than repressed utah natives, no older than 30, mormon, most lacking college education and the sort of world experience necessary to constructiveley understand and work with the student population at pcs (or any population outside of utah) they insisted that i was a "rich, spoiled little girl", not worthy of the money into which i was born, evil and materialistic. it seemed that some of these counselors taking out their insecurities on me (and others). in fact, the average counselor was 21-25 years old, married with children, mormon, never lived outside of utah, and had issues that made mine pale by comparison (not the sort of people you would want to guide your adolescent and prepare them for life in the real world). looking back, i see that at least 4 female counselors were definateley homo-repressed lesbians, acting out their repressed feelings in a sadistic manner by working in a girls facility when daily chores were not performed up to par, hours were spent staring at a wall. if we were caught looking around, we had to start over. we would spent 25 minutes standing, then have a sitting break for 5 minutes. this period would work off 2 points (minimum amount of points assigned for a small offense was 20, but many offenses were punishable by 100, 200, up to 1000 points, equaling days and weeks of standing time). one girl stood for so long, she passed out, fell foward and broke her jaw (which had to be wired shut) she was reprimanded for locking her knees and purposeley cutting off circulation to her legs. another girl spent so long in isolation, she became bloated and jaundice beyond recognition. most girls gained about 20 pounds during their stay. i gained 30. i was denied access to the amount of water i needed maintain proper hydration, and as a result, suffered from headaches several times a week. i was allowed access to tylenal during "med times", but i was "manipulating staff" and punished if i requested medicine at any other time. i became so repressed and isolated that when i was allowed to return home, i just didn't know what to do. my peers had had time to develop their own lives and grow into themselves, and i had no idea how to socialize with them. these experiences i kept inside me for years, until i opened up to an adult confidant a few years ago. she was appalled and outraged at the situation. i cried with relief at her validation, that i was not crazy to feel traumatized, that an experience like this would traumatize any normal person. since then i have been trying to come to terms with what happened to me. i suffer from nightmares, and harbour so much anger, rage, resentment, and general negative energy. i am now 22 years old, and see that my healing process will be extensive.
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Megan:
After my daughter died in the hands of ignorant, untrained, unqualified, harsh counselors (Mormon), I thought I would die of a broken heart.
I have interviewed other young people like yourself after they too were treated like prisoners of war. I validated them, but the Utah courts DID NOT!!
The concentration camp mentality (mindset) has been my biggest battle in fighting this lucrative, out of control industry. Utah was the first state I stood up to because this was the state I entrusted with the care of my daughter. This "window of loss" mentality continues to rationalize the death of each and every child who falls victim to this industry with it's warped mentality of, "We Lost ONE, But We Are Saving MANY."
Anyone can be deceived. Even so-called Mormons. I too am a member of the Mormon faith. But my teachings and common sense left my in shock when I learned the TRUTH of how my daughter died, while the industry wanted us to believe she dropped dead without warning, was given a priesthood blessing and chose to go. What ignorance! They even blamed Michelle for choosing Jesus over more torture administed by these stupid people! A young woman who had already suffered prior to enrolling herself in the Summit Quest Program. What I know using my own common sense is that pain heaped upon a person who is already suffering will only make them worse.
When my daughter died in the hands of her own people, Mormons, I stood up to many confused and deceived Mormons who were FOLLOWING the wrong philosophy. A warped philosophy that was introduced in Utah by an evil, deceptive man named Steve Cartisano. Many think and believe as he does. This is not Heavenly Fathers way of thinking. It is mans!
What saved me from dying of a broken heart was the TRUTH!! I want the world to know what has been happening to children all over the country and out of the country in the name of help and therapy.
I believe it is the truth that sets us free.
Keep talking Megan. The truth is healing to the soul.
Sincerely,
Cathy Sutton
http://www.voy.com/58570/447.html (http://www.voy.com/58570/447.html)
I was booted for a post that was written questioning the use of OP, and daring to complain my son had been invited to a Bible study were they handed out the Book of Mormon.
Actually, the OP post had been kind of ignored - except a for a few irate parents insisting no such thing existed. The Mormon thing got a lot of attention, which got Ken Kay?s (I think it was) attention, and he disputed it; I came back with well it happened, and it shouldn?t , but I?m actually more upset about OP - and thats when I got the boot.
I was being belligerent - just simply dared to say something was going on that shouldn?t. This is not allowed. Ever. Constructive criticism, is for them, a non working choice.
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Spots, your claiming it was me that posted the following is exactly why you and your PUREst friends are not creditable...YOU MAKE THINGS UP AS YOU GO ALONG!
Man, you must feel threatned by me. Why?
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On 2003-08-21 16:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah - you didn't answer the question posed to you? Where were/are your child(ren) incarcerated, etc. Is the above response yet another smoke screen??
As for seminars, etc., maybe I will go, personal growth is better than NO growth."
Carey, you really have to quit this. Your writing style gives you away, and even the paper bag doesn't protect you.
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Damn, the problem is so rampant, an LDS writer was doing research in'99 and put out this Questionnaire for Mormon Survivors of Child Abuse
http://www.affirmation.org/article156.htm?FACTNet (http://www.affirmation.org/article156.htm?FACTNet)
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Deborah - you're good a your research. Tell me, how many Mormons are employed at the wwasp schools in Montana, Iowa, New York and South Carolina? I wasn't aware there were many Mormons in those parts of the country, nor in Jamaica?? Enlighten us please.
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**Tell me, how many Mormons are employed at the wwasp schools in Montana, Iowa, New York and South Carolina? I wasn't aware there were many Mormons in those parts of the country, nor in Jamaica??
Now, since you're posing a question that is virtually impossible to research- WWASP is not going to provide a list of their employees- I have to assume you are actually making an indirect comment, or maybe you are just ignorant.
Yes, I would agree with what you seem to be implying- there are non-mormons capable of abuse. But, those non-mormon employees were trained by the mormon creator(s) of the program. The employees are definitely colluding with the abuse. Perhaps a few of them need to be held accountability as well. Might be hard to find and keep employees (who would torture for pay) if they knew there were some risk to their personal freedom involved.
All the other warehouses outside Utah are run by friends or family. The reports and descriptions of abuse seem to be consistent at all the facilities, indicating they all train their staff in the same BM (read torture) techniques. The mormon version of BM, that is.
Deborah
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In other words, you don't know. Is it warm under your blanket of assumptions? :wink:
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Three words for Deborah ....
MOUNTAIN PARK BAPTIST
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Mormons certainly have a lot of strange beliefs. I greatly suspect any religion whose living leaders are revered as prophets and members as saints.
More disturbing though is that the founders of Mormonism considered the mark of their status to be life and death power over others and of course having sex with as many 14 year old girls they could get their hands on.
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Face Kahn,
A Prophet must be alive to prophesi; so that is not unusual. The problem comes from the obviousness they are false prophets. When their prophecies don't come to pass, they claim added light, to explain the misunderstanding. The thing is, the test of a True Prophet of God is 100% accuracy. Nothing less than 100%. This is b/c God knows and isn't guessing.
Other Prophets may hit the mark now and then - b/c, in my opinion, Satan is extremely intelligent and a very good guesser. But he doesn?t Know - and so his prophets are often mistaken, and so need added light.
But I think the point that is more pertinent here, is the drive to indoctrinate. I can't fault anyone who believes they have good news from sharing it - but its this business of handing out the Book of Mormon to kids held captive and under duress, that I find problematic.
I understand the Mormon drive for missionary work, but this business of using the kids as a captive mission field is an outrage.
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On 2003-08-20 19:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The stats on child abuse may be higher in Utah because of a lower benchmark for what is considered abuse, resulting in more reports. In some states, like maybe Tennessee, it is okay for a child to be spanked in school. It may not be so in Utah. Don't know for sure, just speculation."
so the point you are making is that you don't have a point???
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On 2003-08-22 11:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah - you're good a your research. Tell me, how many Mormons are employed at the wwasp schools in Montana, Iowa, New York and South Carolina? I wasn't aware there were many Mormons in those parts of the country, nor in Jamaica?? Enlighten us please. "
Anon, I suggest that you first apologize to the LDS church who have around 100 missionaries in Jamaica and claim to have LDS people in every parish. They have worked very hard and are very proud of this fact.
I am always amazed at how the wwasp supporters react the same predictable way. First they deny. Then when they are shown irrefutable proof they defend. After defending the program they then say "it doesn't matter anyway" or "so what". And through it all they viciously attack in an effort to change the subject.
This time they are denying by remaining silent. We have seen posts stating that parents visit the facilities daily. Why aren't these TB parents responding to anon? TB doesn't try to hide their affiliation with the LDS church. They proudly display the Mormon "Articles of Faith" and "The Living Christ" documents in the office. As for how many Mormons are employed at TB, the kids all know which staff members are Mormon. Nobody there tries to hide it. My FR is Mormon. She didn't try to hide that fact from the parents or the teens.
BTW TB always suggests that visiting parents stay at Sunset Resort where you will find the Book of Mormon in every room. Just further proof that there is a Mormon influence in Jamaica.
The program and seminars rely heavily on the 7 Habits teaching of Stephen Covey. I have read his books and have found them to be helpful but I think readers should be aware of the Mormon influence that is never stated in these books. Prior to writing the 7 Habits books Covey wrote The Divine Center which includes many of the 7 Habits principles but is clearly about the Mormon faith. There are reviews of this book here:
http://www.anybook4less.com/detail/0884944719.html (http://www.anybook4less.com/detail/0884944719.html)
Quote from The Divine Center: "I have found in speaking to various non-LDS groups in different cultures that we can teach and testify of many gospel principles if we are careful in selecting words which carry our meaning but come from their experience and frame of mind." A few years later we have The Divine Center rewritten as The 7 Habits books.
So go ahead and defend by bringing up the family values (just ignore the facts posted earlier about child abuse, etc.) Don't forget to attack me for be racist. :???: Don't forget to insist that by posting these facts I have in some way labeled myself as a victim. We already know it doesn't matter to you what your children are being taught.
Judy
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http://www.mormonstoday.com/991212/D2Stock01.shtml (http://www.mormonstoday.com/991212/D2Stock01.shtml)
LDS RM Recovers from Wilderness Attack (Last of Runaway Teens in Custody)
Salt Lake Tribune 9Dec99 D2
By Kelly Kennedy and Greg Burton: Salt Lake Tribune
BERYL JUNCTION, UTAH -- An LDS Returned Missionary serving as a youth counselor to a program for wayward youth, is unharmed after the eight youths he and a co-worker were leading on a wilderness camping trip overpowered them and escaped. Kirk "Marty" Stock was beaten with juniper sticks and bound with duct tape along with his co-worker, BYU student Sunshine Fuller. Both Stock and Fuller were otherwise unharmed and all eight youths have been found and accounted for.
Stock and Fuller took the eight 14- to 17-year-old boys on the wilderness excursion as part of the Red Cliff Ascent program, which seeks to help wayward teens gain self confidence. One of the boys persuaded the others to attack Stock and Fuller, tie them up and escape. The counselors had suspected that something was up, and tried to take precautions. "They were following all of their training, and what they did kept the situation from escalating further," said Red Cliff's field supervisor Mitch Cole. "There will be a lot more wariness on the staff from now on, but there won't be any changes made."
http://www.vernal.com/aug29/so.weddings.29.html (http://www.vernal.com/aug29/so.weddings.29.html)
Loretta Sue Lind and Gary Daniel Fountaine will be married August 31 in the Vernal Temple. A reception will be held that evening from 7-9 at Kokopelli Park, 145 E. 100 N. An open house will be held from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. Sept. 22 in Veyo, Utah, 260 W. 500 N.
The bride is the daughter of Kenneth R. Lind of Vernal and the late Sheila E. Lind. She is a 1993 graduate of Uintah High School and has attended the University of Utah. She is transferring to Southern Utah University and is employed as a senior instructor with Red Cliff Ascent, a Wilderness Therapy Program.
The groom is the son of Cynthia Fountaine of Vernal and Gary Fountaine of Veyo. He is a 1989 graduate of Uintah High School. He served a mission in the Uruguay Montevideo Mission and has taught English and Spanish in Taiwan. He has attended the Utah State University. He is employed as the director of staff services at Red Cliff Ascent.
The couple will make their home in Southern Utah.
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Parents need to be with their children to help them sort through the doctrine of cults Mormanism #1. How can they do this if their children are locked up- they are losing valuable years.
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THE ENTIRE MORMON RELEGION IS A CULT, EVEN WWASP STATES THE FACT THAT THERE RELEGION IS WHAT KEEPS THEM USING THESE ABUSIVE METHODS EVERYDAY.
SO ASK WWASP WHERE THEY CAME UP WITH THERE CULT
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I find that unless you have personal experience about something,you can't assume you have a clue about how a persons feeling. There are a lot of folks interested in this gross topic of abuse in the mormon church.You are right, it does go on everywhere,just here it is soooooo easy to cover up!Itis not healthy to supress normal and I mean normal sexual feelings.Everyone is too afraid to admit that sex is awesome in the right curcumstances.This is an abusive religon,especially to woman and scary for kids.My whole entire family is morm. I speak openly to my son and daughter about what really goes on behind closed doors and maybe this next generation will stand up and shout for all the silent screams that no one listened too!Please start treating each other, especially our kid's with love acceptance and give them a voice of there own.ABUSE SURVIVOR I WAS A CHILD, NOW I'M 40 I too supressed this,a person should never have to prove there worth.Especially to a man behind a closed door!!!!!!! :cry2: :cry2: :cry2: :cry2:
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I was also in a cult behavior mod program. The similarities in the implementation of the "program" of straight, inc and the mormon religion are many. Exactly why I wrote my ward president and asked to be removed from the church rolls. Man, that felt darn good too.
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Maybe they're getting more respect in the cities, but not so in the country. The man is in charge, the woman is his helper. Yes, she may have 5 jobs, but she still cooks when she gets home, even though the rest of the family might have been waiting for hours and could have easily done it for her.
I had a Mormon wife recently ask me about their income tax refund. Both she and the husband work, both make very good wages, both paid income taxes and filed a joint return together. He was keeping all of the money for himself, but she had an inkling that part of that money was hers. This was after years and years of marriage and multiple kids later, but she was just now getting up the nerve to ask.
Toni
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mormons are some stupid crackers
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I DON'T THINK IT IS PROPER TO USE THIS FORUM TO BASH THE MORMON FAITH OR ANY OTHER FOR THAT MATTER. I HAPPEN TO BE A MORMON - AND MOST OF YOU ARE NOT ON TARGET HERE. TRUE - THE PEOPLE WHO OWN AND OPPERATE WASSP ARE MORMON. WHAT'S UNTRUE IS THAT MORMONS ABUSE CHILDREN - NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. THOSE IN THE YOUTH INDUSTRY MAY ABUSE CHILDREN - REGARDLESS OF THEIR FAITH.
THESE PROGRAMS ARE NOT PROMOTED BY THE MORMON CHURCH. The only voluntary urine sample they'll get from me is a taste test
--Bumper Sticker
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Your right nite owl; for the most part.
I would like to suggest tho, that the LDS really do need to step up to the plate on this and put a stop to it.
The LDS are vastly wealthy and powerful, and no sence pretending otherwise, they rule Utah.
The LDS have the moral authority, and the ability to get legislation with teeth passed, that would make this kind of program unlikely to be profitable.
If they don't do something to help solve the problem, it is as if they condone it; which might as well be promoting it.
Its your job to tell them so.
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Deborah,
Whatever you say OK. Anyone with half a brain and a computer could dig up as much about any religion, gender, or race.
In my teen help facility the staff was mostly (about 99%) white heterosexual christians. They were cruel, abusive and all the other things you stated here.
Oh but one interesting fact you might like Mormons don't believe in race mixing...they feel other races are inferior. Wow what a small world. Imagine that one bigot hates someone and that mentioned someone...well their bigots also. Welcome to the inane world of bigots where every arguement is circular.
Personally I don't care who likes who or thinks so and so is an abusive cult. Nor is this meant as an attack. My only point is this whole Mormons are bad...no they are not crap is endless.
I could spend all day defending one side then turn around and research for the other.
Did you really think you could "win" such an arguement? Maybe you all should take a course in debate.
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Please do not feed the trolls.
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Best reason to stay away from Mormons: Most of them are Repuglicans!! And they support the fascist White House and their fascist senator Orin Hatch! The Road to Hell is paved with Republicans!!
ex-Mormon,
Jack
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On 2004-09-28 15:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please do not feed the trolls."
I am a troll? Or is it that you already know you will never win a debate with me? If your not ready to defend your beliefs don't post them on an open forum.
How about don't feed the idiots. Survival of the fittest etc.
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No, but it is important to know what your dealing with.
http://www.utlm.org/index.htm (http://www.utlm.org/index.htm)
http://helpthechildbrides.com/ (http://helpthechildbrides.com/)
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On 2004-09-29 08:56:00, BuzzKill wrote:
http://helpthechildbrides.com/ (http://helpthechildbrides.com/)
When I was in Straight, Inc. and made 3rd phase (allowed to go to school) my mother sent me to a fundamantalist Baptist school. I thought that odd, since I'd been raised Methodist before moving to a Presby church and school. One of the senior girls was betrothed to the 40+ year old (pock faced, 1950's dressed, scary) pastor. Everybody knew she was an unwilling bride. Everyone felt sorry for her.
It's not the brand name of the religion that matters. Fanatacism is fanatacism. Then there are the outright frauds.
There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
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On 2003-08-19 19:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"no, you didn't just play the race card, did you?
shame on you blaming every mormon for child abuse. that's just like catagorizing all of the catholic preists as pedophiles.
i know you didn't just do that"
Of course all Catholic priests are pedophiles--all Mormons, too.
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//One of the senior girls was betrothed to the 40+ year old (pock faced, 1950's dressed, scary) pastor. Everybody knew she was an unwilling bride. Everyone felt sorry for her. //
Yeah. Me too.
Was this a common thing in that community?
I'm just wondering what was behind it? Was it a sub-culture thing? Some weird family connection?
Its hard to imagine a young girl agreeing to such a thing without it being part of the culture shes raised in. And even then, they often rebel.
Remember Tzeitel?
No old butcher for her.
She loved the Taylor.
One significant difference for the child brides the link is to - they are expected to be part of a bevy of brides - and often at ages barely into their teens.
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I brought this thread back from the grave, because I'm new to Utah and living amongst the Mormons. I love the Mormon people here in the outback, but what I can't stand about them is their ability to coverup for each other. I've seen this over and over.
DIRTY SECRETS AND BUSINESS TIES . . . MY NEW SLOGAN TO THE MORMONS HERE WHO WANT TO KEEP QUIET ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE. YES, I AM SCREAMING!
When I first moved into the state, Mormon women told me that if you're a Mormon church-going man, and you get caught beating your wife, raping or sexually abusing, the elders will take you to a motel room, have a talk with you and release you back to your victims the next day. No charges filed.
If you're not a church-going Mormon man, get ready to be fed to the wolves at their sheriff's office, county attorney, child protective services, etc. where surely the victim will have blood relatives (lots of inbreeding has also occurred in some areas that have been relatively shut off from the rest of the world, and still are somewhat). They will throw the book at you.
In many instances, they don't show much love or compassion as you would imagine (but I see this in all of the religions . . . I am not religious, merely spiritual).
For instance, it is common practice for the eldest child to inherit all of the wealth of the parents. The remaining 8-9 kids are without. So, 1 in 10 gets wealthy, and 9 go away with nothing from mom and dad. I've seen this create mucho resentment amongst families.
They seem to help themselves to things that you own that they might need. This is called stealing, and you have to catch them in the act. Others might know they are doing it and they might be a good friend of yours, but if they're related or a church-going Mormon (vs. "Jack Mormon", non-church-going, there's a difference), they won't tell you. They'd say, "Why, he would never do that!"
So, to me, the little peon Mormons that I live amongst (vs. the hierarchy of the Church) are pretty good people, living by better moral standards than the rest of our nation. Where they are really wrong, and gradually changing, is from a free and rampant sexual society ruled by the men, patriarchs who built their dominance and sexual weirdness and ludeness into their religion, as a God-given right. Pretty hypocritical and totally impossible if you really know God who is not gender driven with His love or compassion.
They lack backbone, and don't like confrontations even if something is drastically wrong. They like closed doors and secrets. They don't walk their talk.
Like you say, it's up to them to clean up their own house, and I certainly have a right to post about my experiences here.
Toni
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Heres a book you might like Toni,
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb1 ... legirl.htm (http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb189_gentilegirl.htm)
Some of these might be useful as well:
Cults and Religious Movements
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb1 ... ontrol.htm (http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb164_combattingcultmindcontrol.htm)
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb097_cultwatch.htm (http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb097_cultwatch.htm)
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb2 ... ecults.htm (http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb227_kingdomofthecults.htm)
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb1 ... ebonds.htm (http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb171_releasingthebonds.htm)
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb2 ... cfaith.htm (http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb204_toxicfaith.htm)
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb0 ... stsask.htm (http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/xb022_whencultistsask.htm)[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-09-30 07:57 ]
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http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595093852,00.html (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595093852,00.html)
BYU newspaper yanks T-shirt ad
Some detect a desire to sin in 'I can't ... I'm Mormon'
By Tad Walch
Deseret Morning News
PROVO ? Managers of the student newspaper at Brigham Young University pulled an advertisement after numerous complaints that it was too offensive for the conservative campus.
Chad Ramos, who capitalizes on "Mormon speak" in order to sell T-shirts, is surprised ? but not particularly disappointed ? at the furor at BYU over his "I can't" T-shirts.
Stuart Johnson, Deseret Morning News
The ad campaign began at the start of the month and sparked a big stir over a T-shirt with a simple phrase ? "I Can't ... I'm Mormon."
Students, professors and administrators felt the slogan implied wearers wished they could drink, smoke or have casual sex but were prevented only because they are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
One letter to the editor in the student paper was particularly sarcastic: "I can't, I'm Mormon, but if I wasn't, you know I'd be there 'cause it sounds sweet!"
Many also felt the female modeling the shirt in the ad struck an overly provocative pose.
Both objections surprised the shirt's creator, Utah Valley State College student Chad Ramos. He grew up in Las Vegas and said the phrase served him well when peers asked him to drink or smoke while he went to high school in an area with a large LDS population.
"I found if I told people I didn't drink, they didn't know how to react," he said, "but if I said, I can't, I'm Mormon, they said, 'Oh,' and boom, it was over."
So Ramos was stunned by the backlash at BYU.
"I didn't identify with it. I couldn't even relate," he said. "Anybody who's lived outside Utah has said this a hundred times."
One upset student, Joseph King, a freshman from Olathe, Kan., asked Universe officials to pull the ad. They told him he could start a petition and take it to the administration, but a meeting Thursday spared King the effort.
The Newsnet Advisory Board met about other topics Thursday but discussed the controversy. Newsnet is the combined operation of student newspaper, KBYU's student news show and a Web site shared by the two.
The advisory board includes Jan Scharman, vice president for student life; Carri Jenkins, an assistant for communications to BYU President Cecil Samuelson; and the dean and chair over the communications department.
Jenkins said administrators expressed opinions, but no mandate was given and no decision reached.
After the meeting, Newsnet general manager Jim Kelly pulled the plug on the ad, which last ran that morning and was scheduled to run again on Monday and Wednesday of next week. He said the number of complaints warranted the decision.
"The administration didn't tell us to do anything," Kelly said. "We had feedback from members of the Newsnet advisory council, but at the end of the day, the decision was made by me as general manager of Newsnet."
Kelly said the Universe rarely pulls ads.
"We don't frequently pull ads, but in terms of declining to run ads, probably two weeks don't go by that we don't decline ads for the Daily Universe. It is universal among newspapers to exercise the right to refuse ads considered objectionable. We're pleased we have high standards, and we're never apologetic about it."
Last year, Universe advisers pulled another insert, Sports Illustrated on Campus. The magazine agreed to BYU's terms ? it would not run beer or tobacco ads ? but chose to stop including the weekly insert in the Universe after two incidents. First, the magazine ran a racy ad for a swimsuit issue. A week later there was an article with a photo of nine naked male and female backsides.
Some observers thought the latest flap was too much about too little.
For example, the Daily Universe ran an editorial cartoon by David Lesue, a 2003 BYU graduate who works on campus, that made fun of students for overreacting to the T-shirt and its message.
Daily Universe cartoon pokes fun at "offended" students.
Artist David Lesue/The Daily Universe
He laughed when asked if some students are too easily offended.
"I would say most letters to the editor in the Universe include the words, 'shocked and appalled,' " he said. "I just don't think it's that big of a deal. There's nothing really wrong with it. There's a difference between making fun of our religion and pointing out the quirks of our culture."
Ramos said the decision smacks of censorship but didn't object.
"I love edited movies and edited songs," he said. "I'm not one to fight against some censorship.
"I'm not going to criticize BYU for making their decision," he said. "They did what they had to do, buckling under pressure. It is a little close-minded."
As for the protests about the model's pose, Ramos called it flirty, not seductive.
A dual business-philosophy major at UVSC, Ramos is pleased with his business, done solely online at icantimmormon.com. He and his partner in Nevada have taken 15 orders since the ads began running, and they have sold more than 100 shirts in two months.
He expects orders to pick up now.
"That is great," he said of the decision to yank the ad. "I couldn't have asked for better advertising. Everybody will know about us now, and I get my money back."
Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of both mind and body will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day
Thomas Jefferson
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On 2004-09-29 10:03:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2004-09-29 08:56:00, BuzzKill wrote:
http://helpthechildbrides.com/ (http://helpthechildbrides.com/)
When I was in Straight, Inc. and made 3rd phase (allowed to go to school) my mother sent me to a fundamantalist Baptist school. I thought that odd, since I'd been raised Methodist before moving to a Presby church and school. One of the senior girls was betrothed to the 40+ year old (pock faced, 1950's dressed, scary) pastor.
Everybody knew she was an unwilling bride. Everyone felt sorry for her.
That was my point in asking Deborah and the others to justify this whole line of thinking. My captors (as I already said) 99% of them white anglo saxon christians. Guess what they are all sadist in their own right.
It's not the brand name of the religion that matters. Fanatacism is fanatacism. Then there are the outright frauds.
There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
"
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Personally, in my opinion, yes. We should bash religion. In MY opinion they are all set up from the get go to control people. Just like our precious little cults of the Teen Help Industry
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
Mark Twain
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Here's a story about religion from my local paper. This is a story of two religions in a minor clash; a small band of Lutherans, originally from Finland and a denomination of Unionists. (Trust me on this, Unionism is a fullblown religion around here!)
It's not about really horrendous, dangerous behavior on the part of religious folk. It's just a perspective piece, in the context of this conversation. To some people, sentimentality and cultural history are important enough to go to court. That's touching, at least I think so. I wish I had that kind of solid community foundation.
Would these same people go to bat for a fellow member who was accused continually over the course of years of torturing children? I don't think so.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleyi ... 56933.html (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleyindependent/s_256933.html)
The right of self-defense is the first law of nature . . and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
--St. George Tucker, in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries
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I think I'll go visit
http://www.icantimmormon.com (http://www.icantimmormon.com) and order a few tee-shirts...............
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The organized churches, just like many non-profit groups, are part of the One World Order scheme of things. They are doing their part to control, yes!
?It?s not just the worker bee enviros who?ve been fed info and programmed to believe that their cause is just and true. The worldwide players have tentacles extending into every facet of our lives: schools and universities, government, commerce, investors, leveraged buyout giants, labor unions, banks, religions, drug research and manufacturing, soft drink companies and special interest groups (private foundations and non-profit charities). We?ve all been affected in one way or another.?
http://www.spirithelps.com/Who%20Is%20Toni.htm (http://www.spirithelps.com/Who%20Is%20Toni.htm)
Toni
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I'm beginning to tie this youth and adult residential treatment program economy into the Rockefeller's Aspen Institute's "Workforce Strategies Initiative". You see, they are currently changing America's economy from production to services -- tourist, health, accounting, computer:
"Industry-specific workforce development programs target a particular industry ? and a set of occupations within it ? in order to place disadvantaged people in high quality jobs. These programs become knowledgeable participants in the targeted industry in which they work. They strive to influence industry practice on behalf of low-skilled or otherwise disadvantaged workers by pioneering labor-based innovations that benefit industry and workers. Industry-specific employment projects utilize a range of strategies to achieve these ends, including: operating education and training programs; running for-profit businesses; forging institutional links with educational institutions, employers, unions and industry associations; advocating for policy changes; and providing consulting or other services to firms within the industry."
http://www.aspenwsi.org/index-aboutus.asp (http://www.aspenwsi.org/index-aboutus.asp)
Here's Rockefeller/Aspen's guidebook for candidates and journalists on how to talk to Americans about globalism:
"Rockefeller Brothers Fund, Aspen Institute Release 'U.S. In the World: Talking Global Issues with Americans - A Practical Guide' "
http://www.aspeninstitute.org/index.asp?bid=15450&i=87 (http://www.aspeninstitute.org/index.asp?bid=15450&i=87)
Then we have Aspen Education Group that is buying up all of the facilities around the nation, donating to a non-profit for educational consulting training. Do you think those consultants might have a tendency to send kids to Aspen's programs that help fund their educations?
Aspen Education Group pledges $100,000 to IECA Foundation
"The IECA Foundation is pleased to announce that Aspen Education Group has pledged to contribute $100,000 over the next four years. The contribution has been earmarked specifically for consultant and counselor training as they work with youth in the midst of making educational decisions. The formal announcement was made to the IECA membership and school, college, and program representatives at a luncheon held during IECA's Fall Conference in Scottsdale, Arizona on November 7."
http://www.iecafoundation.org/news/news.htm (http://www.iecafoundation.org/news/news.htm)
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Thanks for all of the helpful links . . . I've got some reading to do!
Toni
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Please note that I am not related to any of the Thayer facilities !! (well, maybe back hundreds of years, but I don't know 'em)
Toni
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mormons are retarted
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I'm in Melbourne. Last night here on tv I saw a uk program, BRAT'S CAMP, about wayward English kids who were sent to Red Cliff Camp Utah USA to be 'reformed'.
The word MORMON was not referred to once. Can we assume that this organization IS Mormon? Is everything in Utah bloody Mormon?
I reckon Mormons by and large are a bunch of kooky zealots, whose muscular theories are questionable, secretive, forceful and patently absurd.
I'd sooner turn my kids over to Charles Manson and his female acoylytes!
My name is andrew and I am at [email protected]
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If interested there is a discussion with folks from England about Brat Camp at Sociopranos:
http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/threa ... 25&start=1 (http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/thread-view.asp?threadid=225&start=1)
Not much activity lately, but 13 pages of dialogue with some of the parents.
Redcliff counselor speaks out:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=9&3 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2843&forum=9&3)
There is another of these marketing campaigns in the works here in the states. Funded by Shapiro Productions:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=9&1 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6796&forum=9&1)
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On 2004-10-20 19:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The word MORMON was not referred to once. Can we assume that this organization IS Mormon?"
Well, most of the individuals are certainly mormon.
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I live in Utah, but no, I'm not Mormon. I don't know of any Red Cliff Camp facility in this state. However, right now, some UK filmmakers are here at Turn-About Ranch filming English kids in the program. They screened some 5,000 applications.
I think staff will all be acting just perfectly in front of the cameras. And all of this glorification comes after sexual abuse reports that were quietly swept under the carpet.
No, this facility is not owned by the Mormons, it's owned by "corporate offices" in Los Angeles, Aspen Education Group (education, what a fraud that is as part of their name).
Toni
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Shit after being at PCS I'm afraid of Mormons.I won't even go snowboarding in Utah. Damn I miss my pleasant thoughts of that state.
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I should have said too that Aspen Education Group is Jewish . . . just like all Jewish enterprises these days, they seem to be running the show in this industry.
Toni
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The Mormon Church - officially known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - has absolutely nothing to do with any of these programs. Some are owned and opperated by people of that faith in the State of Utah (because 50% of the people in Utah are of that religious persuasion). Provo Canyon School (PCS) is owned and opperated by Universal Health Systems. They have no affiliation with the Church. At one time the LDS church owned LDS hospital and Primary Children's Hospital - but they no longer own them. The LDS church is not affiliated with this industry. Robert Lichfield is Mormon - and he is the administrator of the WWASP empire.
I don't believe that religion has anything to do with any of this.
One of the principles of the LDS faith is Free Agency - and the Freedom to choose. These youth programs take Free Agency away.
A.M.
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I don't think anyone maintains that the Mormon church, per say, owns, or is directly involved with this industry. However, it is required of every Mormon to tithe; that is, give 10% of the gross income to the church. And so, in this way, they have a connection to the very profitable industry of abusive and neglectful programs; as the owners and operators are Mormon. And so one can reasonably surmise 10% of the 90 million+ goes to the Mormon church each year. And this would just be wwasp. Not insignificant, is it?
One might suspect the Mormon church is looking the other way; Pretending ignorance for the sake of the tithes. I am Not saying this is so. I have no idea. But it does seem possible.
Now, if the LDS are offended by the abuses and neglect that so often take place in these programs, they have the power in Utah to get it stopped. You have a state legislature that will listen to the church and a church that will listen to its people - So Utah - Do something.
Unless its true the church condones abuse and neglect, as well as fraud, as long as it enriches Mormon coffers.
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Again the outright discrimination and bigotry against Mormonism and the programs expressed here in this forum is the fruit of the uneducated minds of ignorant people trying to restore value of a wasted life of self indulgence by saving ?program abused? kids and kissing babies. The majority of you ought to be professional politicians who love to be seen by the world and its media/press doing the same.
You think that by bashing anything that requires self-discipline as part of its model or holds up a standard to strive for, that you are the new Bob Dylan?s of the 21st century. You think by attacking a religion or programs for kids that teaches at its core the time honored values of virtue, honesty, and self ?mastery, that some how you are the bearers of freedom. You are in fact the Ministers of the secular Humanism; the religion of victim-hood and self-destruction. Your only real philosophy is anarchy and you are really just rebels looking for a cause and what could be more convenient then to become the saviors of children spoiled by a society of excess and over indulgence that you call freedom.
The ?sins? of the Mormons theology to you is that it teaches that you are saved by the grace of Christ after all you can do. The ?after all you can do? part requires one to cross ones self amidst ones own vices and human failings and deny yourself and take up your cross as Christ taught and strive for a higher standard. This is the truth and the truth sets you free to live peaceful lives filled with purpose and value that isn?t ruled by drug addiction, alcoholism and any and all other isms that hook both young adults and the old through this misuse of personal agency. These isms (addictions) are the ever-present fruits of the so-called freedom from any standards or authority that you all seem to profess and promote here. Most of the writers here profess this slavery to addiction and abdication of personal accountability as ?freedom? like the hippies did in the 60?s as they indulged themselves in a culture of addiction to there own demise.
Your real problem is you hate anything that requires personal accountability and you find this embodied in this case of the Mormon Church (of which your ignorance is plain to see ) or in these adolescent programs that require standards and structure. Your real problem is one of self hatred and your need to find value in a life of wasted potential through this philosophy of do whatever you want and then some how your saved by the grace of Christ and you are personally accountable for nothing. Your philosophy is empty and your arguments here nonsensical.
You all profess that by doing nothing or requiring no standards in the name of freedom is the path to success either in raising children or in the dogma of religion. The old something for nothing, the oldest bankrupt philosophy in the world Is your anthem and this is your forum. Your bigotry and assumptions are common and the path you follow here is wide and filled with ignorance and arrogance, but very popular in our pc culture and just as predictable?.as Christ taught wide is the path and easy is the way to destruction and many go thereafter?But hard is the way and narrow is the path to eternal life and few be that find it. I suggest the way is hard and the path narrow because it requires all ones heart, might, mind, and strength to master oneself and follow Christ in the name of true freedom through discipline, obedience, and mastery of self. True freedom is always known by its virtue not is indulgence.
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You must live in a binary world, 1 or 0, anon.
No, we don't go against anything requiring self discipline or responsibility. We are not against honesty.
I'm sure some of us are secular but thats not a bad thing unless you're a conservative religious person. I'm not going to say anything about your bible thumping because frankly its irrelevant to this issue.
The issue is about the accountability and honesty of the programs, and how they operate. About how they are accused of being dishonest THEMSELVES about many things, like money, how they treat the children in their care, how they come out from the beginning saying that your child will complain about the program to get out so don't believe anyting they say. That makes it impossible for them to get help if they are actually abused and there's nobody in there looking out for them... thats wrong.
They have to be accountable too, not just the kids locked up in those places.
We're also not against accountability for kids or punishment of kids, but we are against them being kidnapped, locked in some place, having thier parents turned against them, giving them no way to call out for help if they need it, no way for people to check on their condition, and no rights. We're not for 'restraint' (submission holds and pins, that are extremely painful, and I'd KNOW I've done Juujutsu) being used as corporal punishment when they do things like stand up without permission or ask to use the bathroom, smile, or look out a window, or pick up something someone else dropped. We're also against those damn seminars that emotionally beat the people in them until they are broken down and brainwash them.
So, you tell me, what needs the lesson accountability?Come to the woods, for here is rest. There is no repose like that of the green deep woods. Here grow the wallflower and the violet. The squirrel will come and sit upon your knee, the logcock will wake you in the morning. Sleep in forgetfulness of all ill. Of all the upness accessible to mortals, there is no upness comparable to the mountains.
-- John Muir
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The issue is about the accountability and honesty of the programs, and how they operate. About how they are accused of being dishonest THEMSELVES about many things, like money, how they treat the children in their care, how they come out from the beginning saying that your child will complain about the program to get out so don't believe anyting they say. That makes it impossible for them to get help if they are actually abused and there's nobody in there looking out for them... thats wrong.
I have a question or two for you, since you seem so sure of yourself; first, how can it possibly be taken as any measure of intelligence that you base your entire argument off of accusations against a person or persons? Do you truly have any experience with the programs at all? Because you read People Magazine and they say something is wrong, it's immediately wrong? You're throwing away your brains and stuffing your head with paper, friend. The truth is, the programs do work; I should know, I spent three months going to school on the campus of Carolina Springs Academy, and I've been there to see the best and the worst of the place.
It's true that the programs work on maybe 7 or 8 of the kids that are sent there, since truly all the work is done by the kids themselves, and some kids don't want it to work, so it doesn't. But then again, I've seen the programs do some amazing things, and it's all personal progress. There's no "brainwashing" involved.
The two or three kids who don't use the program to their advantage? Of course they are going to go back out into the world and whine to anyone who will listen; they were taken away from things that "they loved" (sex, illegal drugs, violence, obsessions with death...the list goes on, sit down and listen to a kid actually in the program and making any progress, and you will hear a horror story not of abuse by staff and administrators, but pasts that, while upset that they needed such drastic measures to rid themselves of, they'd never go back to) and forced to stay away for two years or more.
For those kids who want to able to destroy themselves in these habits, they will say anything, even that grown men have beat them and raped them, to get out and get back to impregnating teenage girls and injecting themselves with every vile substance known to man. I've seen it happen, seen these kids outright lie to the press when I know the truth, which is probably a lot more than you can say. Are the programs a miracle-worker? In some cases, yes. Do the kids whose lives were saved by the program love it? Again, it tore them away from the lives they knew and made them better; some people can be rather bitter about that. But then, you'll se plenty of kids who support the programs; the various media simply decide to conveniently ignore them, as they don't exactly fit their "TEH PRGRAMZ R EVIL" drivel; or worse, claim these decent individuals are among the ranks of the zombie brainwashed children, which is literally the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
We're also not against accountability for kids or punishment of kids, but we are against them being kidnapped, locked in some place, having thier parents turned against them, giving them no way to call out for help if they need it, no way for people to check on their condition, and no rights. We're not for 'restraint' (submission holds and pins, that are extremely painful, and I'd KNOW I've done Juujutsu) being used as corporal punishment when they do things like stand up without permission or ask to use the bathroom, smile, or look out a window, or pick up something someone else dropped. We're also against those damn seminars that emotionally beat the people in them until they are broken down and brainwash them.
Please excuse me if I snort with laughter. You, my friend, are so obviously biased by lies that you don't even bother looking deeper and trying to find the truth for yourself. As I said, I spent a fair amoun of time with the "program kids," and I'll tell you now: the kids who are ever put in physical locks deserve it. Standing up doesn't earn you punishment; a staff members asks why you are standing, and you give your reason. If it's legitimate ("I need to refill my water bottle," "I need to use the restroom," "I need to get a different book," and so on) you're allowed to do so. It's the kids who leap to their feat and start throwing chairs and trying to harm everyone around them that are restrained, and that happens, again, only when it starts getting to the physically violent first-level (and among them, usually kids that have been there less than a month) that they're not being allowed to do whatever they want.
Smiles? Listen to that statement, actually try and apply that: A kid smiles, which is obviously some deep violation of some rule or another, so a staff, who is busy looking for actual threats, must then immediately dive and tackle the kid? That's pure stupidity, and I'd be ashamed of believing that of anyone unless I'd seen it with my own eyes. Looking out the window isn't allowed in school; it simply means they're not doing their work, and again there's only a staff telling them to get back to work, not pinning them to the ground. They can look whereever they want any other time, unless they're obviously staring at staff members or female staff or kids. Picking up anything belonging to someone else? Only if the intention was to steal it, and only then if the other kid reports him or her.
You're also against the seminars. Good for you, seeing as you obviously have so much experience with them, and can't possibly have based your ENTIRE POSITION off of whiney kids just trying to get back home to their marijuana pipes.
Anyway, I've rambled on for a while; basically, all I'm trying to say is use your brain, not your newspaper. Have there been cases of abuse? Certainly. But the ratio of truth to lies is one in thirty claims, and individual staff members who actually do abuse the kids are immediately removed; they're not the example you should be looking at.
Last, actually look at the things you've said against the Mormon church. For one thing, they do not rule Utah...Mormons, in reality, make up only half of the population, which is, true, a greater concentration than anywhere else, but it doesn't mean they have ultimate control over the state. This also applies to some of the leaders of WWASP, who are in fact Mormon, but has absolutely no relevance; what you're saying is the equivalent of saying that since there are a few gay priests in the Catholic church, all Catholics must rape little boys in their spare time. Ridiculous, and you MUST know it. The extent of the Church's power over its members is simply to excommunicate them, and there is no true, solid reason for them to do so. The Programs are not the dens of murderers and thieves as the media would like you to believe...they themselves are, by the way, simply going off rumours and spoiled children themselves. As is the case with any media, you must look deeper if you really want to know the truth. DO SO.
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7 or 8 of the kids sent there = 7 or 8 out of each ten kids. Sorry; anonymous accounts don't allow editting.
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***three months going to school on the campus of Carolina Springs Academy...
And you are to be respected as an authority on the industry?
Your just one of many sick individuals who are fighting fiercely to defend the inherently abusive techniques employed by programs.
I think it wouldn't be hard to find research to indicate that 7 out of 10 people are susceptible to change using methods of torture or mental conditioning.
You claimed:
I've seen it happen, seen these kids outright lie to the press when I know the truth.
You saw that attending school three months at CSA?
You also said:
But the ratio of truth to lies is one in thirty claims, and individual staff members who actually do abuse the kids are immediately removed; they're not the example you should be looking at.
Three months, and you can make this claim? 1:30 huh? What do you base this claim on?
And Einstien, you totally missed the boat on the Mormon issue.
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// I should know, I spent three months going to school on the campus of Carolina Springs Academy, and I've been there to see the best and the worst of the place.//
Well, your entire post is so full of bull its hard to know where to start, but I think this above takes the cake. You were at CSA Three months - and you can as a result declare what is true across the board in the WWASP programs? Even at CSA? Now This is just plain ridiculous.
And you are all over Niles and others for their "ignorance", but how 'bout yours pal? What do you know about brainwashing? How 'bout educating yourself abit before you go popping off about what is and what aint brainwashing.
You can begin here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ct-details (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1883536065/qid=1098554226/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0346524-0441766?v=glance&s=books&n=507846#product-details)
About the Author
Charles Swencionis, Ph.D. teaches at the Ferkauf Graduate School of Psychology, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Yeshiva University, Bronx, New York.
Excerpted from Battle for the Mind:
A Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing by William Walters Sargant, William Sargent. Copyright © 1997. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.
"This mechanism holds the possibility of explaining and understanding much of how people suddenly change direction in life, and some of the strangest religious and spiritual behavior ever described among human beings. Perhaps most important, understanding it can give us insight into the formation of social bonds, the development of gangs and groups, and allow us to make more informed choices as individuals, as a society, and as a culture, how we want our own groups to develop." Charles... read more
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http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1883536227/qid=1098554859/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0346524-0441766?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
The Manipulated Mind: Brainwashing, Conditioning and Indoctrination
by Denise Winn
About the Author
Denise Winn is a British journalist specializing in psychology and medicine. She is a former editor of the UK edition of Psychology Today and has written for national newspapers magazines in Britain for over 20 years. She is author of 11 other books on psychological and medical topics and is currently also editor of The Therapist
Excerpted from The Manipulated Mind : Brainwashing, Conditioning and Indoctrination by Denise Winn. Copyright © 1984. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved
Excerpted from "The Magic Monastery: Analogical and Action Philosophy of the Middle East and Central Asia" by Idries Shah. Copyright 1972, 1981 by The Estate of Idries Shah. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.
DELUSION A would-be disciple said to a sage: 'I have been listening to you for days now, condemning attitudes and ideas, and even conduct, which are not mine and never have been. What is the purpose of this?' The sage said: 'The purpose of it is that you should, at some point,... read more --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
Book Description
Ever since American prisoners of war in Korea suddenly switched sides to the Communist cause, the concept of brainwashing has continued to fascinate and confuse.
Is it really possible to force any thinking person to act in a way completely alien to his character? What makes so-called brainwashing so different from the equally insidious effects of indoctrination and conditioning, or even advertising and education?
Research findings from psychology show that brainwashing is not a special subversive technique; it is the clever manipulation of unrealized influences that operate in all our lives.
This book, by breaking down so-called brainwashing to its individual elements, shows how social conditioning, need for approval, emotional dependency and much else that we are unaware of, prevent us from being as self-directed as we think; and, conversely, which human traits make us the least susceptible to subtle influence.
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I'd like to suggest that those of you who feel the LDS church condones the teen abuse in Utah programs - some of which are owned and opperated by tithe-paying mormons - I'd suggest you write letters of complaint to the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
You can probably find the address at
http://www.lds.org (http://www.lds.org)
Letter writing does work - I also want to remind all of you to write letters to the editor or the Salt Lake Tribune......
Particulary regarding all of the political contributions and bribes involved in this industry. It is truly outrageous that a political maneuver was used to prevent a vote on legislation that would have made these programs safer for children.....Then the person responsible for killing the legislation was given a $30,000 donation towards his campaign for governor....The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
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Mormons, just like other rabid religious fundamentalists, feel an obligation to miniter to, recruit, and/or 'fix' social 'deviants'; in order to create a perfect world where everyone's content and at peace.
Nothing fundamentally wrong with that... they have just missed the boat on the real problem- as the industry has done with the teens. If they want to create a peaceful society they should be researching what characteristics are common to peaceful societies. Then working hard to create that. Rather than subjecting captive audiences to mental conditioning designed to help them 'accept the status quo'.
But then, that would just wreck the economy. Our culture/economics is dependent on illness and crisis management. A cure for cancer, for instance, would crash the economy. That's how dependent it is on people being sick and why we see no movement or support for prevention. Everyday the majority of people in this country put money before life, cause everybody needs the sick culture to continue.
Those same rabid fundamentalists are also rabid capitalist. And when it comes to religious values or money... do I really have to say?
And guess what, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have a society in which people can't meet their basic needs and not have violence and crime, drug abuse, and the rest. The US has fallen to 6th in the world in terms of 'quality of life'. We are seeing the manifestations of that. So, are all the 'helpers' really interested in a peaceful society or just securing their weekly paycheck? And defending a culture that breeds unhappy people.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-10-23 18:37 ]
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Anonymous, first I?d like to say that true Christ warriors witness under their real names, never afraid to bring His message and attach their name to it as the witness of His actions in human terms. Your anonymity is indicative of the hypocrisy of many organized religions (Mormonism included) as you judge others and spew alleged wrongdoings from your undercover hiding place. If you are truly a representative of Christ, don?t be a coward, but rather show your face for all to see.
You say, "You think by attacking a religion or programs for kids that teaches at its core the time honored values of virtue, honesty, and self ?mastery, that some how you are the bearers of freedom. . . You are in fact the Ministers of the secular Humanism; the religion of victim-hood and self-destruction.?
Again, your comments reek with hypocrisy and double speak. Your church and the youth programs may portray teachings of virtue, honesty and self-mastery on the surface. However, the truth comes out in people?s actions of domination, control, abuse and manipulation. If you are really of Christ, take your blinders off so that you may truly see what these kids are saying about actions that they have witnessed. I would be happy to relate to you my personal observations as staff.
The problem with establishing virtue, honesty and self-mastery is that it?s a scale of what?s right and wrong. As humans, this translates to one human telling/judging another human by what they believe to be right. The hypocrisy is that the Mormons? heritage revolves around a public society that tried to instill their standards on the Mormons by making them conform to one wife for one husband, equal rights for both partners in a marriage, and no sex with minor children. The Mormons, unable and unwilling to conform, moved west to Utah in search of their freedom to practice their secular (worldly) beliefs which often resulted in their own victims and destruction of others? individuality, independence, and self-esteem.
When I speak in this forum about Mormons, I only relate my firsthand experience with them after more than 50 some years of living amongst various cultures. As a woman, it?s particularly hard to work and live with most of the Mormon men due to their belief that men are somehow better than women. You will say that Mormon men don?t believe in this concept, however, again, their actions speak louder than your words.
To quote you, ?These isms (addictions) are the ever-present fruits of the so-called freedom from any standards or authority that you all seem to profess and promote here. Most of the writers here profess this slavery to addiction and abdication of personal accountability as ?freedom? like the hippies did in the 60?s as they indulged themselves in a culture of addiction to there own demise.?
Here you take a pedestal of better-than-thou, purportedly having removed all of your isms in your human existence. Perhaps you have, but I really doubt it or you would no longer need to be on this human plane of existence. At any rate, the Mormons certainly do have their ?isms? or addictions, as you say. They may not drink coffee due to caffeine, but they love their Mountain Dews full of the same stuff first thing in the morning and all day long. Every Mormon home and most Mormon grocery stores that I?ve been in are filled with chips, sweets, junk food, and sugar sweetened products without the choice of natural or unsweetened. Diabetes is also a Mormon curse.
I was one of those awful hippies that supposedly run amok from addiction which, by your statement, ended in my own demise. For your information, me and a whole bunch of others are still alive and kicking today, and we?ve achieved great and wondrous successes, and we?re in mass numbers, called the Baby Boomers.
This statement of yours is pretty funny: ?The ?after all you can do? part requires one to cross ones self amidst ones own vices and human failings and deny yourself and take up your cross as Christ taught and strive for a higher standard.? It?s funny because this is exactly what the participants in this forum are asking you to do ? clean house in the Mormon church and instill Christ principles amongst your disciples.
Or, you can wait, lie about it, and try to keep it a BIG FAT SECRET like the Catholic church, and then come up with some more lies and dance around on the hot coals when the truth is revealed. For revealed it shall be.
As you say, there are many paths to Christ, and this is called man?s free will. It takes many different roads for all of the different people to get to Him. Some roads are straight and direct, some are filled with hair-raising bends, curves and turns onto the back roads. Whichever road you take, you build and learn along the way from your experiences. The experiences provide the foundation of the future you.
It?s not trite or insignificant that these people are in this forum talking about some very major problems in a fast growing industry with virtually no oversight, standards, or civil rights protections. In fact, I tend to believe that within this forum are the leaders of a national movement and from their perspectives and experiences, they will change things in America for the youth care industry. As leaders, they will be the bearers of ?freedom? for future American youths.
Rather than trying to portray yourself as Christ and speak for Him, why not lead someone to Christ from within, where He always resides. He can speak for himself to His disciples and does not need you, the middleman, the Church to represent him from your lofty self-imposed throne.
Toni Thayer
http://www.spirithelps.com (http://www.spirithelps.com)
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Ok, again, incase you didn't get it the first time, I don't give a fuck about your theology! There. And my name isn't Niles, but I have a billion nicknames so I guess its mine here...
The only thing I do care about, which you so skillfully side-stepped to attack me on your own battle ground - the kids deserving it and they're rotten assholes who need to be punished and lie to get out of the program - would be that there are a lot of accusations of the methods in these programs being abusive and akin to brainwashing.
Also, because of the extreme secrecy and lack of oversight, there's no way to stick someone in there to FIND OUT now is there? I want that changed so we can all look and see "oh, they're okay" or "aww, they're not okay, we need to help them". Seems awfully simple, doesn't it. Prove they're not being hurt! Show what goes on in there! Give us some transparency. Martha Stewart was convicted of a crime and she's able to have people visit and have phonecalls, and talk to lawyers, and has a lot more rights than these kids who don't have to have necessarily done a damn thing wrong do!
I'd *LOVE* to wake up one day and find out everyone here was a liar and the kids were okay and getting what they needed, because it means I wouldn't have tens of thousands of abused kids on my conscience!!!
Use the search button and read what others have written about their experiences in the seminars. I'd say they seemed like brianwashing! Instigating extreme distress to weaken your mind and then while everyone's screaming, crying, and banging on chairstrying to convince you of you're wrong about this and you have to do things our way.
When you say that someone who hated being locked up in this program will lie, you make it so that its almost impossible for people who ARE abused to get help. These programs make it so they have NOBODY to turn to, if they are hurt or want to file grievance. They have no idea of their rights and can't talk to a lawyer or anyone. People in Jail, CAN.
And when you talk about these physical locks being "deserved", the only way someone would ever deserve that would be if they were actually a danger to anyone else. I hear all the damn time about its used as corporal punishment. I'm not going to argue with you about corporal punishment because I'm not psychologically well off enough to do so. Go to http://nospank.net (http://nospank.net) and read up yourself.
About your rebuttals about smiling, looking out windows and at people... thats lovely. Now as soon as I see any proof of it I'll feel better.
About the seminars, no, its not kids getting back to marijuana pipes, it was parents who went into the seminar, one of which was a psychologist. Furthermore it was me talking to a psychologist MYSELF about what I heard regarding the seminars.
And yeah, I DO use my brain and not my newspaper, which is why I want these places reformed so we can make sure they're okay and if they are being hurt they can call parents (who are NOT told they will lie automatically) and advocatcy groups and the law. I also want surprise inspections and if possible, security cameras. Just like lots of businesses like them, and like real, honest to god schools without orderlies and locks to keep the kids inside of them.
Oh, and again, I don't care about your damn religion. Shut up about it. A christian, mormon, jew, agnostic, athiest, or rastafarian who abuses a kid, is one and the same to me.
Stop defending EVERYTHING by simply saying anyone who says the program was bad, didn't work, was abusive, or whatever is a "spoiled kid" or a "druggie" or whatever. Stop using your stupid hackenyed excuses over and over. We're not all the spoiled kids you seem to blame everything on, and a lot of kids who went in there were not "bad kids" but actually needed help, like the rape victim at http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens) Or like the aspurgers syndrome girl I met online who went to Casa by the sea. And by the way, treating AS with the methods in these programs is like trying to treat a cold with eugenics. And yeah I have AS too.
But well, I guess in your little world, ANYONE who doesn't fully agree with the gospel of the program is a spoiled liar druggie (or whatever) and the programs are always 100% right! Too bad you don't seem to realize if something DOES go wrong they have no way to talk to anyone, and if you were a parent and your kid went into a program and you were still thinking the way you were, and if something DID happen to your kid, him or her would have NO way to get through to you and call out for help. They can't tell the truth about anything because what they say has to agree with what you believe the programs are.
You need to look at it from another perspective, yourself. Having some set in stone beilef that the programs can do NO wrong and anyone who disagrees is a liar is frankly illogical and makes it impossible for them to get help if they DO need it or if something DOES go wrong.In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. Only one who knows the disastrous effects of a long war can realize the supreme importance of rapidity in bringing it to a close. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war who can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
--Sun Tzu (author of The Art of War
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Nil you said:
When you say that someone who hated being locked up in this program will lie, you make it so that its almost impossible for people who ARE abused to get help. These programs make it so they have NOBODY to turn to, if they are hurt or want to file grievance. They have no idea of their rights and can't talk to a lawyer or anyone. People in Jail, CAN....
The rules are different in psychiatry and make no mistake about it, this industry is very much a tenacle of the psych industry, which has carved out a niche for itself in society and has gained authority and the respect of most.
A person under the care of a pyschiatrist can move about freely unless they are unfortuante enough to be involuntarily incarcerated for psych 'treatment'. Then they have NO rights and are under the complete control of the the professional.
Like many movies have depicted, the more one resists 'treatment', the more 'crazy' or 'disordered' they are dx as being.
Read this true account "Crazy Until Proven Sane" of a Houston woman's experience and see if you notice any similarities with the industry.
http://psychrights.org/Stories/CrazyUntilProvenSane.pdf (http://psychrights.org/Stories/CrazyUntilProvenSane.pdf)
And check out the thread I started this morning on the Roots of the Industry: Religion/Psychiatry-And the Justification for Involuntary Incarceration
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=9&1 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6961&forum=9&1)
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I honestly think all of us are crazy until proven sane. I mean - if you had a photo journal or video of everytime you lost control, yelled or had a temper tantrum - I think 90% of us would look quite deranged.
I for one - believe all of the stories. People just don't come to these web-sites 5, 10 or 20 years later and lament when nothing terrible happened. They do so because they continue to suffer from the abuse and maltreatment. Most have post-traumatic stress syndrome.
The children in youth therpy are extremely vulnerable for abuse and their isn't anything our government is doing to prevent. When reports of abuse come in - it's very eacy for the authorities to just discount everything because "those kids lie and are manipulative." The stories are all too similar and too numerous to discount as lies and manipulations.
The only rational conclusion from all of this is that abuse is widespread in the teen industry. Some are more abusive than others - namely WWASP programs, Provo Canyon School, Mountain Park, Thayer. All of these programs have hundreds of survivor reports of abuse. All survivors report similar maltreatment -- isolation for long periods of time, human take downs for minor violations, broken bones and other injuries as a result of human take downs, forced druggings, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, starvation, sensory deprivation, false imprisonment....Most of the stories from survivors include some of these common abuses.
These things are a violation of law - because they are wrong and harmful... Yet these things keep happening.
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They're all just telling the same lies! Wait, thats almost impossible.
Better to just cover it up instead of find out whats wrong, or reform the industry to just prevent it from happening, that would be too much trouble... When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat
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Deborah, brave ol' Anonymous seems to be a debunker, pure and simple. You can never argue with a debunker 'cause they use any words necessary and not the truth. They debunk the truth, twisting and turning as they go.
Toni
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Toni, or spirithelps: I came to this site on your recommendation as I have considered you an ally and friend in many ways. I am using a screen name because I believe that as a current worker at a youth program in Utah in is in the best interests of the youth, staff, and myself to remain somewhat anonymous. I suppose you know that the Federalist Papers which helped get the U.S. Constitution passed were also written with a degree of anonymity under the pen name of "Publius." So I'm not sure that either James Madison, myself, or the poster here known as Anonymous are doing something wrong. Preserving the anonymity of our students and ourselves has been encouraged to us by the industry for both student and personal protection.
As a Mormon who has worked with you on other issues, I still have to agree with Anonymous that many of the comments made
about Mormons on this string are offensive to me, largely because I do not see them as true. I have never in my life been taught in my church or by my parents that sexual or physical abuse of children was desireable or acceptable. The description of Mormons as "rabid fundamentalists" by Deborah certainly strikes me as both offensive and inaccurate for a large percentage of my faith. As for my own parents, active, orthodox Mormons their entire life, they have shared their finances amongst themselves, their children, and their fellow creatures to a degree which in my mind qualifies them for the title of saints. As for the descrimination against women, I have seen the reverse in this industry from women of both Mormon and non-Mormon background. I have seen fierce, ruthless competition in this industry by women who feel they must prove themselves superior to men in every capacity, by withholding information from me as a man that felt was important to the doing of my job. I have had female staff direct me away from the students out of sheer gender jealosy that the female students might learn some relevant skill from a male. Such is our society today.
In addition, I would say that one of the directors of our company placed himself at risk at the Challenger and North Star programs when he worked there. If those programs would have listened to his warnings, several deaths would have been avoided. He testified against them, he is nominally at least Mormon. One of his associates, a Mormon woman at our company, also worked at some of the early, dangerous companies and has greatly supported my employment because of my attentiveness to safety concerns. I certainly agree that the company I work with has room for improvement, i could certainly use more training as could other staff. I just spent two days of training with the company in appropriate handling of unusual occurences. I have told more fully my story on the thread about youth camping programs.
While there are rural Mormon families that are overcontrolled by the male spouse, I can tell you firsthand that there are cases where the female spouse is definitely the one in control, financially or otherwise.
As for Mormon control of youth programs, I know that one of the prominent leaders at Aspen Achievement Academy left the Mormon Church because it was't liberal enough, and Gil Hallows at that location is certainly not viewed positively by many local Mormons, who distrust the company. Gil, incidentally, I think is probably a good man, despite his Mormonism or Aspenism. I remember him from childhood.
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To hear views from some former (and current) members of the LDS (mormons) go here
http://www.exmormon.org (http://www.exmormon.org)
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http://www.religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org)
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What's going on here doesn't address the realities of what's happening in all the programs. There seems to be the belief that all of these programs are some sort of Mormon conspiracy to abuse and brainwash kids. No doubt there are Mormons as well as others who want to do just that, and they can be found in some of thes programs, perhaps many of them.
The fact is that some of the programs suffer from too little structure and regulation, while others are uptight thought and behavior modification, or have some weird mixture of the two. They have cells of people who want to give absolute freedom, no rules (which can end up becoming a tyranny of the most popular students and staff) or they are into total suppression of individual freedom by the community (thought control). You can give students freedom of thought, and a certain amount of freedom of action, and still have some rules of behavior for the safety of the group and individuals. You can approach behavior problems kindly, or with loving confrontation when necessary. I think this is what Outback, where I work, is trying to do.
As for Mormonism in these companies, this accusation seems a little off-base to me. I think I was the only Mormon amongst a dozen or more trainees in my Jan 2001 Aspen Achievement Academy training. Most of the company leaders seemed more on the liberal, ex-hippy fringe for Utah My trainer was self-professed gay, opposed to the local Mormon redneck deer hunters. Sure, people like Gil Hallows have a Mormon background, but they are even called into question by association with the liberal crowd at the Academy. As a Mormon I cetainly felt a little out of place with all the Buddhism, vegetarianism, Native American stories with no discernable meaning to me at the time.
My uncles from a nearby town both viewed the Aspen Achievement Academy with suspicion, certainly outside the conservative Mormon local culture. They're especially suspicious ot the environmental idealists (left-wing) which seem to gravitate to the wilderness schools to commune with nature and children. Aspen has an uneasy peace with the local Mormon community. In light of this i find some of the generalizations and conspiracy theories here ludicrous.
You find the same mixing of culture at Outback, and many of the Mormons that work there would certainly be seen as at the fringes of Mormonism. They're definitely anti- behavior modification in philosophy to the degree that they have had to struggle with the fact that the new staff (Mormon or non-Mormon) are so liberal that they are reluctant to enforce anything for fear of hurting anyone's relationship.
Again, I think they're doing a darn good job at looking for a harmony between a safe social order and individual freedom. I thank you all for helping me see some of the problems out there. I'll try to do better to be more sensitive to the situation of the students. But perhaps a few of thes facts can help keep it more real.
On the otherhand I certainly agree with Spirithelps and others that the accumulation of corporate power in the hands of Aspen is a big concern. Many at Outback were not happy with the sellout to Aspen. I don't like some of the clauses in the nondisclosure agreement at all. I certainly believe that power and accountability should coexist
[ This Message was edited by: redtail on 2004-11-09 16:30 ]
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Anyone who can buy what the book of mormon says is a fucking retard.
The entire thing is just ridiculous and Joseph SMith or whatever his name was ...was a scam artist/ nutcase.
Obvious fairy tale....I guess some people will buy anything. :rofl:
Ive heard some pretty silly religious ideas...but Mormon takes the cake.
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The Mormon Church - or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has nothing to do with this industry. Some of the facilities in Utah are owned or staffed by people of that faith (because it is the predominant religion in Utah) but that is the extent of it. I don't think people should bash the religion - because it has nothing at all to do with this industry. There are thousands of programs in the USA and most are not opperated by Mormons - only a few in the State of Utah.....
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I don't have a problem with the Mormon religion per se, but I've yet to see a "faith based" treatment center that does not employ some kind of destructive form of behavior modification. If all these "experts" are claiming that addiction is a disease then why would religion even enter into it? Do you send a diabetic patient to church for "treatment"????? But, that gets into the whole other issue of addiction as a disease theory which I highly question in the first place.
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=70&Sort= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=2825&forum=9&start=70&Sort=)
I think Anon on page 8 has shown how the church could put an end to the abuse in Utah.
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Deborah,
Please drop the whole Mormons=bad treatment center crap. For someone who wants all sex offenders to have so many rights your sure hardcore against the Mormons. I am shocked. Wasn't most of your arguement based on sexual misconduct condoned by the Church? Don't forget these people have rights and we should all cry and feel sorry for them. After all they were probably victimized themselves at one time.
Poor Mormons :lol:
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PCS claims to have no affiliation w/ any church or religion. This is simply not true.
Mormon church services are provided every Sunday at PCS, and students sort of encouraged to attend. For the girls who were on "investment" unit (where they are forced to stand for hours and hours, staring at a wall, doing nothing), attending church was a welcome break, the only activity they were allowed to participate in.
*More than a few* girls actually "converted" while at PCS! Yes, PCS had NO SHAME, no problem converting and baptizing MINORS! all while claiming to be a secular institution. :skull:
So, yeah, I do think (these particular) Mormons were dangerous and out of line.
Megan Flynn
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On 2004-11-08 15:19:00, redtail wrote:
In addition, I would say that one of the directors of our company placed himself at risk at the Challenger and North Star programs when he worked there. If those programs would have listened to his warnings, several deaths would have been avoided. He testified against them, he is nominally at least Mormon. One of his associates, a Mormon woman at our company, also worked at some of the early, dangerous companies and has greatly supported my employment because of my attentiveness to safety concerns. I certainly agree that the company I work with has room for improvement, i could certainly use more training as could other staff. I just spent two days of training with the company in appropriate handling of unusual occurences. I have told more fully my story on the thread about youth camping programs.
What is the name of the director you refer to in the above referenced paragraph?
Shayne? Mike? Blaine?
And the woman? Who would that be?
Thanks,
:grin:
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Is it illegal to baptize and indoctrinate children (minors) into a church without parents' permission/ or without regard for parents' wishes in the matter??
Megan Flynn
*Yet another example of the shadyness of the goings-on at Provo Canyon School.
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Maybe I should have (at least threatened to) convert and get baptized into Mormon church, while at Provo canyon School.
Maybe that would have served as a "red-flag" to my parents and relatives, and maybe they would have investigated a little more than they did before sending me there.
Megan Flynn
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Just checking that my account works.
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Abuse lawsuit alleges widespread problems with Mormons, Boy Scouts
By William McCall
Associated Press
Published: Oct. 4, 2007 9:14 a.m. MDT
132 comments E-MAIL | PRINT | FONT + -
PORTLAND, Ore. — A $25 million sex abuse lawsuit against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Boy Scouts of America filed Wednesday alleges that child abuse has been widespread since the 1960s and little was done to prevent it.
The new lawsuit also claims the church and the Scouts "knew that assignments were being used by pedophiles to victimize children...."
Kelly Clark, the attorney who filed the complaint on behalf of six men now in their 40s, called it an "infestation of child abuse, stretching across the country, involving hundreds of predators and thousands of children."
Clark also said the LDS Church and the Boy Scouts "failed miserably to take responsible steps to clean up their organizations."
Stephen English, a Portland attorney for the LDS Church, said only one individual was accused of abuse in the complaint — the same man as a previous lawsuit.
"The LDS Church has always adamantly condemned child abuse and we will thoroughly investigate these allegations," English said.
A Scouts spokeswoman in Portland said officials had not seen the lawsuit and had no immediate comment.
Clark noted there is a strong relationship between Mormons and the Scouts, with the church sponsoring 28 percent of all Scout units nationally in 2006.
Clark has represented dozens of alleged abuse victims in successful lawsuits against the Roman Catholic Church, and he said the problems alleged in the complaint against the LDS Church and the Scouts "at least rival ones we've seen in the Catholic Church."
The new lawsuit adds four men to a previous complaint by two brothers who claim they were molested by a former LDS Church teacher and Scout leader. The men allege they were abused in the 1980s by Timur Dykes, a former Boy Scouts leader and a Mormon Sunday school teacher.
Dykes has several child sex abuse convictions and is listed by the state as a predatory sex offender.
Efforts to reach Dykes were not successful. County probation officials said they would leave him a message seeking comment.
The Web site for the Multnomah County Department of Community Justice Parole & Probation notes that "Dykes gains access to victims through positions of trust (Boy Scouts, church membership, befriending single mothers); targets vulnerable boys and families; has used intimidation and threats to maintain victim compliance."
The LDS Church has been ordered to turn over extensive financial records in another sex abuse lawsuit filed by Clark, and the Oregon Supreme Court rejected a church appeal.
Clark said settlement talks are continuing in that case.