Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Maximilian on September 09, 2010, 06:51:55 PM
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I've noticed some posters on fornits make the argument that the "professionals" should be left to deal with troubled teens, and suggest parents seek the services of psychiatry, and adolescent psychiatric hospitals to act as a safety net when dealing with a mentally ill or self destructive teenager.
What reasons do people have to assume psychiatry or psychiatric hospitalization is superior to say, a wilderness program?
What reasons would someone suggest that psychiatric medication therapy is better than say, large group awareness training?
As someone who has experienced both version of treatment, I do believe there is some differences between the two. I don't have to get into details at this moment, and I wanted to post this thread before I forgot about it. But I will come back and make detailed posts using my own expereinces as the foundation for my opinions on this subject. But in the mean time, people can think about this and come up with their own arguments and theories.
Are there alternatives to programs like psychiatry that offer solutions to the same problems parents are facing when thinking about sending their teen to a program?
Why do so many parents seek out private programs, when psychiatric services are readily available?
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I've noticed some posters on fornits make the argument that the "professionals" should be left to deal with troubled teens, and suggest parents seek the services of psychiatry, and adolescent psychiatric hospitals to act as a safety net when dealing with a mentally ill or self destructive teenager.
What reasons do people have to assume psychiatry or psychiatric hospitalization is superior to say, a wilderness program?
They wouldn't be dying of heatstroke at a psych hospital
What reasons would someone suggest that psychiatric medication therapy is better than say, large group awareness training?
Humiliating someone who's already having troubles doesn't help.
Why do so many parents seek out private programs, when psychiatric services are readily available?
Because they're vulnerable and gullible.
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My parents thought the brochures looked nice.
They also thought if it had the word "school" in it, it must be so.
They believed the marketing.
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What reasons do people have to assume psychiatry or psychiatric hospitalization is superior to say, a wilderness program?
They wouldn't be dying of heatstroke at a psych hospital
A quick stat for what it is worth.....
from 1979-2003, excessive heat exposure caused 8,015 deaths in the United States.
Link (http://http://www.bt.cdc.gov/disasters/extremeheat/heat_guide.asp)
We have seen about a 1 or 2 occur in wilderness programs.
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Though both are toxic institutions, from what I've experienced the psych ward does have two advantages.
1. Psychiatric wards have edible, non-moldy food and real live canned beverages.
2. Time done in children's psych is definite, and short compared to time in a program.
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I guess I need to qualify that statement a little better. At a reputable psychiatric hospital, kids wouldn't be dying of heatstroke ormedial neglect from unqualified staff thinking kids are "being manipulative" (because they've been trained to believe that about the kids) in the numbers/percentages we seem to be seeing in the TTI. It's definitely more than "1 or 2", but Whooter knew that already.
One month after that broadcast, the parents of 15-year-old Erica Harvey (pictured) of Phoenix brought her to the program to deal with her depression and drug use.
"She pleaded with us, 'Daddy, please don't make me go,'" her father Michael said in an interview with ABC News Monday. "All my instincts said, 'Leave this place now,' and I didn't trust my instincts."
Within a day, Erica was dead, after collapsing on her first wilderness trip from heat stroke and dehydration.
Erica is not the only victim. No national statistics are currently kept, but a 2005 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services found that 33 states had recorded more than 1,600 incidents of abused children in similar programs that year, according to the GAO.
The parents of scores of children who died or were abused in therapy programs and boot camps are now coming forward, on Web sites and in Congress, to demand a crackdown.
Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., has pushed to improve oversight of the programs. Miller asked the Government Accountability Office to study allegations and cases of negligent deaths and abuse in such programs, and will chair the hearing.
The GAO's findings appalled him, he said.
"Kids being forced to eat their own vomit, to eat dirt, to not be allowed to go to the bathroom...all in the idea that somehow this is building character," he said.
The parents of 16-year-old Aaron Bacon of Arizona say abuse at a wilderness camp in Utah led to the death of their son in 1994.
Aaron "began to complain of a stomach ache, and they called him a faker and a slacker," Sally Bacon told ABC News. "He was in so much pain that he could not carry his pack...They humiliated him, called him names and decided that since he couldn't carry his pack, his food was in his pack so he would go without food."
Like the Harveys, the Bacons will also testify at Tuesday's hearing, chaired by Rep. Miller.
Aaron lost 23 pounds in his month at the camp before he died, because no one realized he had an infected, perforated ulcer, the GAO said. The condition "would have been treatable provided there had been early medical attention," the report states. A draft of the report was obtained by ABC News.
After Aaron's death, the state of Utah revoked the program's operating license, and the program closed three months later, the GAO reports.
Bacon_071010_mn Click here to read part of Brian Ross' interview with Sally Bacon and her husband Bob.
A spokesperson for the industry's association says such deaths are tragic and agrees new regulations are needed so that good programs can continue to operate.
"We cannot afford to take these away from the parents as an option," Jan Moss, president of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs. "However, they must be regulated."
But the GAO investigation also found many programs lack the trained counselors or therapeutic procedures they promise.
In February 2001, the parents of 14-year-old Ryan Lewis took him to an outdoor therapy program in West Virginia after he was diagnosed with clinical depression and twice attempted suicide. The program billed itself as being especially prepared to handle cases like Ryan's, the Lewises told ABC News.
One day after threatening to kill himself, Ryan was left alone, accused of being manipulative.
"That night at approximately 7:30 in the evening, he walked off by himself to his camp site and he hung himself," Paul Lewis recounted.
Paul and his wife found out later that despite the operation's marketing, the program Ryan attended had no procedures for handling suicidal behavior by its enrollees.
Alex Cullinane, 13 years old. Back to Basics Christian Military Academy; subcontracts with Fort Lauderdale-based Juvenile Military Training and Leadership Corp. The camp is run by certified National Guard drill sergeants. His death is under investigation. 15-year old squad leader Brandon Scott believes he died of dehydration. He did not eat for days, according to other children, and complained of stomach pain. He died in the middle of the night after getting up to use the bathroom.
Alex Harris, 12 years old. Hope Youth Ranch Minden. Died of dehydration and blow to the head, allegedly when he was dropped on his head. He was forced to run, said he was thirsty, withheld water, he died of dehydration.
Anthony T. Haynes, 14 years old. America's Buffalo Soldiers (Arizona). Dehydration and near drowning
Charles Collins, Jr., 15 years old. Camp Oakland/Crossroads for Youth. Died after allegedly being forced to exercise at the facility after they were told he had an enlarged heart and should not participate in such activities.
Dillon Taylor Peak, 14 years old. Peace River Outward Bound camp in DeSoto County. Officials say Dillon apparently died of a severe case of encephalitis. The death remains under investigation. According to an article listed on the ACLU website, Dillon died after becoming ill and suffering seizures. His parents claim he didn't get medical treatment soon enough, and a state investigation released in January found that, while Outward Bound staffers weren't guilty of neglect, they failed to follow strict guidelines that would have sent Peak to the hospital instead of back to his tent.
Elisa Santry, 16 years old. Outward Bound, Utah. Elisa was found dead 5 hours after she was separated from her group when she was hiking in 110 degree weather in the Utah wilderness. Cause of death is being investigated.
Gina Score, 14 years old. South Dakota Training School, Plankinton, SD. Collapsed (hyperthermia), left out in sun for 3 hours....internal temp at least 108
Ian August, 14 years old. Skyline Journey of Nephi, Utah. Hyperthermia Hiking
Jamie Young, 13 years old. Ramsey Canyon Hospital & Treatment Center, Arizona. Autopsy found that death was caused by heatstroke with dehydration triggered by 10 times the lethal levels of an antidepressant
Kristen Chase, 16 years old. Challenger Foundation. Heatstroke
Mark Soares, 16 years old. Wayside Union Academy. Cardiac arrest from physical restraint; aides thought teen was faking unconsciousness
Nicholas Contreras, 16 years old. Arizona Boys Ranch. Prolonged and serious medical neglect and openly abusive treatment per investigative summary. From one article: "In one case, Contreraz was forced to do pushups with his head over a bucket of feces-smeared clothing..."
Roberto Reyes, 15 years old. Thayer Learning Center.
Robert Reyers' cause of death was said to be from a probable spider bite and lack of medical care. Reyes died of rhabdomyolysis. This can be caused by severe exertion, trauma, and heatstroke. All likely consequences of the regime at Thayer Learning Center. Without the basis of any evidence the coroner claimed Reyes died of a probable spider bite. However, they could not even find a spider bite on his body. Additionally, spider bite is not one of the causes of rhabdomyolysis.
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I definitely "enjoyed" and that is a relative meaning, the psychiatric hospital a lot more than the private program I was in. I think there are several reasons for this, actually. There are some things I did not enjoy though, and thought were better in the private program. I definitely agree the food was great in the psych hospital, that's like the best I've ever eaten. They'd even bring us desserts with every meal, and unlimited juice privileges. The other things I enjoyed more about psych hospital treatment was that you received a lot more individual attention. I won't lie I really liked the attention, and wasn't used to so many adults taking an interest in me. I visited with my very own psychiatrist once a day, and another psychologist as well. They'd ask me all sorts of questions about myself, and even give me extensive tests like the inkblot and IQ tests, that were very lengthy and challenging. I enjoyed the group therapy a lot, we had all sorts of different groups. We had chemical recovery group for people with drug issues, we had art therapy group, recreational therapy group and sometimes even got to go outside to go swimming. Normally we weren't allowed outside, we had a barred in patio to hang out on for fresh air.
Another big plus in the hospital was that it was generally less strict. You had 2 people per room, and the boys and girls were mixed which always makes things more enjoyable and interesting as well. The nurses and everybody were all very nice. There were phones on the walls and you could call your friends. You could get visits everyday from your family, and even your friends could come with family approval. We had school every weekday and the teacher was very nice. I spent a lot of time there on several different stays.
The thing I didn't like about the psych hospital was the fact it sometimes felt like they were running a science experiment on you. It felt like a new medication would be started everyday, if you told the psychiatrist you were sad you'd get more anti depressant. If you tell them you're anxious you'd get more Xanax. If you told them you were confused, you'd get more anti psychotic. I was taking more than a dozen medications there ,so many I couldn't even keep track, but luckily they just tell you to come swallow your cup full and do it all for you. I don't enjoy being on medications all the time, it really altered me in very noticeable ways and I didnt' enjoy all the side effects from the medications. The other thing about hospitals is that the stay is relatively short to a program. I stayed like two months because I was constantly being brought back, but most kids seemed to stay like 5-10 days on average and then go into the day treatment program or just go home.
The things at the private program I did not enjoy were the fact it was crowded. We had like 20 kids sleeping in a room altogether on bunk beds and so that was not as good as 2 people per room, but I got used to it pretty quickly. I didn't enjoy that you receive very little attention at the private program I was at, there were too many kids in my opinion and so sometimes it felt like you were just one of many, rather than an individual with individual needs. The food was OK, it wasn't rotten or anything like that, but they served the same stuff all the time so it got old quick, and you couldn't choose to eat whatever you wanted like at the hospital. Things I liked better at the private program were that we were surrounded by nature rather than thick plexiglass windows and bars. I liked that they weren't that thrilled about all the medications I was on, and with my consent I eventually came off all the psychiatric drugs, well most of them, while at the private program. They provided a therapy session once per week, but it didn't compare with the one on one attention of those who helped you at the hospital. They didn't make us clean at the hospital, but we cleaned all the time in the program, of course I didn't like that very much either.
I had some good experiences, and bad experiences at both facilities. They really were quite different. I felt like I fit in more at the psychiatric hospital, at the private program most of the kids were pretty coherent and it was almost more like a really strict school with some focus on emotional growth. While the hospital was like all about treatment, and school came secondary. I suppose that is the difference between behavior modification and psychiatric treatment though, and I guess I see it like the hospital was critical care where I'd end up when in real danger, and the program was just aftercare, to allow some time to pass with me away from my life so I didn't return and once again be admitted to the hospital. The hospital cost $1k+ per day and because my dad had got a job with benefits his insurance payed for it luckily. But the private program was more like $100 a day, so obviously they can't provide the sort of one on one treatment that the hospital did, with their expensive staff and tests, and small group ratio compared to staff. This is America, money talks and bullshit walks. In treatment like anything you seem to get what you pay for. I'm sure I would have loved a more luxurious treatment center for the long term, but you deal with the hand you're dealt.
I am grateful, although I was not at the time, I am now, that I was able to receive such good treatment. I learned a lot about myself and how to take care of myself. Well maybe not. But from what I was doing, being in treatment was a much better place to be than me being left on my own like I was before that. I won't lie, I enjoyed all the adults taking an interest in me, something that I wasn't used to at that point in my life. Everyone was very nice and I could tell they really wanted to help kids and that was their passion. Some of the best people I've ever met worked at the hospital and program, their heart really was in the right place. I remember being in the hospital I admired the staff so much, I really wanted to be like them and help kids when "I grew up". Well now that I'm grown up, I can't say I have been responsible enough to work in such a professional field, unfortunately, but I'm trying my best, and if I could I would thank every one of those people who tried to help me, both in the hospital and the program. I'm going to post more about the differences between these types of treatment, when I get some more time, but I wanted to post some thoughts on this matter this morning. Thanks for reading this, and thanks everybody who has responded to this thread so far.
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In my opinion the reason a psychiatric hospital is because the staff at these places have spend multiple years in training and have the license to deal with the patients, where as most programs hav maybe 1 licensed practicioner on staff and he is not there at all times, plus the fact is the hospital has multiple doctors on staff ready for immediate deployment to take care of the patient... whether it is something small as a headache or maybe need a stitch to the most extreme which would be a full blown psycotic episode..
Not to mention a doctor monitors the meds regularly and adjusts as needbe.
Plus the discussion groups are voluntary participation... you may have to sit in them, but not forced to talk..
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I guess I need to qualify that statement a little better. At a reputable psychiatric hospital, kids wouldn't be dying of heatstroke ormedial neglect from unqualified staff thinking kids are "being manipulative" (because they've been trained to believe that about the kids) in the numbers/percentages we seem to be seeing in the TTI. It's definitely more than "1 or 2", but Whooter knew that already.
I think we all knew that , Anne, not just me. Whether it is 1 or 2 , or 50 ............ programs are much safer than any alternative treatment and safer choice than doing nothing at all. If we kept repeating the many stories of columbine High school or the many stories of kids being raped by their teachers in public school we could convince ourselves that "all" public schools are abusive and every child had a good chance of getting raped or killed their first day.
I do understand the dangers of sending a child to a program like everyone else here (I think we all have read them here) but the benefits greatly outweigh the risks and turning your back on a child in need just isnt an option for many parents.
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I guess I need to qualify that statement a little better. At a reputable psychiatric hospital, kids wouldn't be dying of heatstroke ormedial neglect from unqualified staff thinking kids are "being manipulative" (because they've been trained to believe that about the kids) in the numbers/percentages we seem to be seeing in the TTI. It's definitely more than "1 or 2", but Whooter knew that already.
One month after that broadcast, the parents of 15-year-old Erica Harvey (pictured) of Phoenix brought her to the program to deal with her depression and drug use.
"She pleaded with us, 'Daddy, please don't make me go,'" her father Michael said in an interview with ABC News Monday. "All my instincts said, 'Leave this place now,' and I didn't trust my instincts."
Within a day, Erica was dead, after collapsing on her first wilderness trip from heat stroke and dehydration.
Erica is not the only victim. No national statistics are currently kept, but a 2005 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services found that 33 states had recorded more than 1,600 incidents of abused children in similar programs that year, according to the GAO.
The parents of scores of children who died or were abused in therapy programs and boot camps are now coming forward, on Web sites and in Congress, to demand a crackdown.
Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., has pushed to improve oversight of the programs. Miller asked the Government Accountability Office to study allegations and cases of negligent deaths and abuse in such programs, and will chair the hearing.
The GAO's findings appalled him, he said.
"Kids being forced to eat their own vomit, to eat dirt, to not be allowed to go to the bathroom...all in the idea that somehow this is building character," he said.
The parents of 16-year-old Aaron Bacon of Arizona say abuse at a wilderness camp in Utah led to the death of their son in 1994.
Aaron "began to complain of a stomach ache, and they called him a faker and a slacker," Sally Bacon told ABC News. "He was in so much pain that he could not carry his pack...They humiliated him, called him names and decided that since he couldn't carry his pack, his food was in his pack so he would go without food."
Like the Harveys, the Bacons will also testify at Tuesday's hearing, chaired by Rep. Miller.
Aaron lost 23 pounds in his month at the camp before he died, because no one realized he had an infected, perforated ulcer, the GAO said. The condition "would have been treatable provided there had been early medical attention," the report states. A draft of the report was obtained by ABC News.
After Aaron's death, the state of Utah revoked the program's operating license, and the program closed three months later, the GAO reports.
Bacon_071010_mn Click here to read part of Brian Ross' interview with Sally Bacon and her husband Bob.
A spokesperson for the industry's association says such deaths are tragic and agrees new regulations are needed so that good programs can continue to operate.
"We cannot afford to take these away from the parents as an option," Jan Moss, president of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs. "However, they must be regulated."
But the GAO investigation also found many programs lack the trained counselors or therapeutic procedures they promise.
In February 2001, the parents of 14-year-old Ryan Lewis took him to an outdoor therapy program in West Virginia after he was diagnosed with clinical depression and twice attempted suicide. The program billed itself as being especially prepared to handle cases like Ryan's, the Lewises told ABC News.
One day after threatening to kill himself, Ryan was left alone, accused of being manipulative.
"That night at approximately 7:30 in the evening, he walked off by himself to his camp site and he hung himself," Paul Lewis recounted.
Paul and his wife found out later that despite the operation's marketing, the program Ryan attended had no procedures for handling suicidal behavior by its enrollees.
Alex Cullinane, 13 years old. Back to Basics Christian Military Academy; subcontracts with Fort Lauderdale-based Juvenile Military Training and Leadership Corp. The camp is run by certified National Guard drill sergeants. His death is under investigation. 15-year old squad leader Brandon Scott believes he died of dehydration. He did not eat for days, according to other children, and complained of stomach pain. He died in the middle of the night after getting up to use the bathroom.
Alex Harris, 12 years old. Hope Youth Ranch Minden. Died of dehydration and blow to the head, allegedly when he was dropped on his head. He was forced to run, said he was thirsty, withheld water, he died of dehydration.
Anthony T. Haynes, 14 years old. America's Buffalo Soldiers (Arizona). Dehydration and near drowning
Charles Collins, Jr., 15 years old. Camp Oakland/Crossroads for Youth. Died after allegedly being forced to exercise at the facility after they were told he had an enlarged heart and should not participate in such activities.
Dillon Taylor Peak, 14 years old. Peace River Outward Bound camp in DeSoto County. Officials say Dillon apparently died of a severe case of encephalitis. The death remains under investigation. According to an article listed on the ACLU website, Dillon died after becoming ill and suffering seizures. His parents claim he didn't get medical treatment soon enough, and a state investigation released in January found that, while Outward Bound staffers weren't guilty of neglect, they failed to follow strict guidelines that would have sent Peak to the hospital instead of back to his tent.
Elisa Santry, 16 years old. Outward Bound, Utah. Elisa was found dead 5 hours after she was separated from her group when she was hiking in 110 degree weather in the Utah wilderness. Cause of death is being investigated.
Gina Score, 14 years old. South Dakota Training School, Plankinton, SD. Collapsed (hyperthermia), left out in sun for 3 hours....internal temp at least 108
Ian August, 14 years old. Skyline Journey of Nephi, Utah. Hyperthermia Hiking
Jamie Young, 13 years old. Ramsey Canyon Hospital & Treatment Center, Arizona. Autopsy found that death was caused by heatstroke with dehydration triggered by 10 times the lethal levels of an antidepressant
Kristen Chase, 16 years old. Challenger Foundation. Heatstroke
Mark Soares, 16 years old. Wayside Union Academy. Cardiac arrest from physical restraint; aides thought teen was faking unconsciousness
Nicholas Contreras, 16 years old. Arizona Boys Ranch. Prolonged and serious medical neglect and openly abusive treatment per investigative summary. From one article: "In one case, Contreraz was forced to do pushups with his head over a bucket of feces-smeared clothing..."
Roberto Reyes, 15 years old. Thayer Learning Center.
Robert Reyers' cause of death was said to be from a probable spider bite and lack of medical care. Reyes died of rhabdomyolysis. This can be caused by severe exertion, trauma, and heatstroke. All likely consequences of the regime at Thayer Learning Center. Without the basis of any evidence the coroner claimed Reyes died of a probable spider bite. However, they could not even find a spider bite on his body. Additionally, spider bite is not one of the causes of rhabdomyolysis.
This is an excellent post with some really revealing information on exactly how dangerous these programs really are. BUT, to ask if a program is better than a psyche hospital is a complete conflation of the issues.
Kids sent to psyche hospitals would have no business being in programs. Hospitals treat the most acute cases. Programs, on the other hand, will take anyone who can afford it and often deliver no treatment whatsoever, as a lawsuit against Aspen Education Group recently revealed. Aspen stated in court that they simply don't provide any treatment at all. Programs serve no useful psychological function whatsoever.
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I think we all knew that , Anne, not just me. Whether it is 1 or 2 , or 50 ............ programs are much safer than any alternative treatment
Wow....that's a pretty bold statement. Got anything to back it up? IOW, Citation needed.
And it was incredibly disingenuous of you to state that it was only "1 or 2" kids how died from heat stroke or heat exhaustion when you knew different.
and safer choice than doing nothing at all.
Not if they're programs that use LGATs and attack therapy. It would be much better to leave the kid alone that expose him to daily humiliation and attack "therapy", IMO and personal experience.
I do understand the dangers of sending a child to a program
No, you really don't unless you've been exposed to that kind of "therapy" (the LGATs and attacking/humiliation)
like everyone else here (I think we all have read them here) but the benefits greatly outweigh the risks
In your opinion.
and turning your back on a child in need just isnt an option for many parents.
I don't think anyone's suggested that.
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No national statistics are currently kept, but a 2005 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services found that 33 states had recorded more than 1,600 incidents of abused children in similar programs that year, according to the GAO.
Since no national statistics are kept and state-level data shows 1,600 incidences of abuse in parent-choice programs in just the year 2005 (in only 33 states), it appears claims about the "safety" of programs is simply a machination of someone's imagination. There are no facts to support that conclusion whatsoever.
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Wow....that's a pretty bold statement. Got anything to back it up? IOW, Citation needed.
And it was incredibly disingenuous of you to state that it was only "1 or 2" kids how died from heat stroke or heat exhaustion when you knew different.
You changed it from "heat stroke" to "heat stroke and medical neglect". I believe I was correct in saying there have only been 1 or 2 kids who died due to heat stroke during that time period. I haven't changed my original opinion.
As far as backing it up with a citation. I will follow the general rules which are accepted here. If people can state that "All Programs are Abusive" and "no kids benefit from them" without a link to a study which supports it then I think it is fair to allow other people to post without citing their sources also. I am not being difficult, Anne, just trying to be fair.
Not if they're programs that use LGATs and attack therapy. It would be much better to leave the kid alone that expose him to daily humiliation and attack "therapy", IMO and personal experience.
To send a child anyplace where they would be abused would not be a good thing. It would be better to keep them home.
No, you really don't unless you've been exposed to that kind of "therapy" (the LGATs and attacking/humiliation)
Yes, actually, I do.
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I do understand the dangers of sending a child to a program like everyone else here (I think we all have read them here) but the benefits greatly outweigh the risks and turning your back on a child in need just isnt an option for many parents.
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No, I don't think you do understand. Many, if not most, of the kids sent to these places are NOT in serious danger. They disagree with, or are defiant towards, their parents. Or they are skipping school, or their parents found weed in their room. All of these behaviors, even truancy, can be considered relatively normal teenage behavior. But then their parents put them into a "treatment center" that forcibly indoctrinates them into the toxic "powerlessness" ideology of AA, using well known COERCIVE MIND CONTROL TECHNIQUES. Now the formally normal teen believes himself to be an incurable drug addict with serious character flaws who will certainly die without constant direction from his new moral compass, the program. He now has nightmares of his traumatic experience in that place that will last him decades. How do you quantify all the psychological destruction caused by these places? I was a child in need, but what I needed was for my parents to care, not sweep me under a rug. Public high schools are not perfect, but at least they do not practice coercive thought reform, as far as I know.
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You changed it from "heat stroke" to "heat stroke and medical neglect". I believe I was correct in saying there have only been 1 or 2 kids who died due to heat stroke during that time period. I haven't changed my original opinion.
Before I even got half way down the page on Caica's Death list, I counted 9.
As far as backing it up with a citation. I will follow the general rules which are accepted here. If people can state that "All Programs are Abusive" and "no kids benefit from them" without a link to a study which supports it then I think it is fair to allow other people to post without citing their sources also. I am not being difficult, Anne, just trying to be fair.
I didn't say either of those things. So, citation please.
To send a child anyplace where they would be abused would not be a good thing. It would be better to keep them home.
Now we're getting somewhere.
No, you really don't unless you've been exposed to that kind of "therapy" (the LGATs and attacking/humiliation)
Yes, actually, I do.
How so?
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This is an excellent post with some really revealing information on exactly how dangerous these programs really are. BUT, to ask if a program is better than a psyche hospital is a complete conflation of the issues.
Kids sent to psyche hospitals would have no business being in programs. Hospitals treat the most acute cases. Programs, on the other hand, will take anyone who can afford it and often deliver no treatment whatsoever, as a lawsuit against Aspen Education Group recently revealed. Aspen stated in court that they simply don't provide any treatment at all. Programs serve no useful psychological function whatsoever.
Quite true and an excellent point.
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As far as backing it up with a citation. I will follow the general rules which are accepted here. If people can state that "All Programs are Abusive" and "no kids benefit from them" without a link to a study which supports it then I think it is fair to allow other people to post without citing their sources also. I am not being difficult, Anne, just trying to be fair.
It seems we've found some common ground then, doesn't it? We are in agreement that the last post by this user that claimed that programs are safer than any other form of treatment was simply made up from his/her imagination. Of course there is no data to suggest the veracity of that statement. It's simply a factually unsupported opinion of this single poster repeated ad nauseum on this single forum.
I have seen no evidence whatsoever to support anything even remotely resembling that remark. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Available data suggest that these programs are actually quite dangerous to life and limb, not to mention a child's mind.
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and turning your back on a child in need just isnt an option for many parents.
I don't think anyone's suggested that.
Right, no one did.
There are good solutions and bad "solutions" for things.
Then you have your "lesser of two evils" scenarios that otherwise intelligent minds often get mired in. (Better to keep the mind focused on the absolute best solution (like really being a parent, for instance) rather than considering either of the lesser appealing options.)
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Very interesting conversation here and I appreciate the civility as well - believe it or not. Since max is being particularly nice today I thought i might ask this (fair) question: Since you are obviously not an ignorant person and seem to want to have a legitimate discussion, then why do you continue to use program buzz words and phrases that you must know are guaranteed to provoke the strongest and most negative responses? After being in Straight inc I absolutely hate terms thrown around like "manipulative" and such. But you know this Max cause you aint dumb. So why choose to say things and phrase things like you are speaking right out of some program script? Cant you understand that for those of us who never belonged in a program in the first place would automatically become offended by having program terminology used to describe us.
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Very interesting conversation here and I appreciate the civility as well - believe it or not. Since max is being particularly nice today I thought i might ask this (fair) question: Since you are obviously not an ignorant person and seem to want to have a legitimate discussion, then why do you continue to use program buzz words and phrases that you must know are guaranteed to provoke the strongest and most negative responses? After being in Straight inc I absolutely hate terms thrown around like "manipulative" and such. But you know this Max cause you aint dumb. So why choose to say things and phrase things like you are speaking right out of some program script? Cant you understand that for those of us who never belonged in a program in the first place would automatically become offended by having program terminology used to describe us.
Isn't it obvious? Max is a self-admitted product of one of these programs. I don't believe
he conciously chooses to to use program buzz words, he just can't help it. Max expresses his views according to how he was programmed too. It's no mystery why Max sounds like he's reading the program's script - because he is, and it's the same exact script they make all
the programmies memorize. No original thought what-so-ever, just regurgitating the same pro-program bullshit over and over again.
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It seems we've found some common ground then, doesn't it? We are in agreement that the last post by this user that claimed that programs are safer than any other form of treatment was simply made up from his/her imagination. Of course there is no data to suggest the veracity of that statement. It's simply a factually unsupported opinion of this single poster repeated ad nauseum on this single forum.
Thanks, Watchful Yeoman, its a good point. So basically you are saying that when someone states that abuse occurs in "all" programs this is what you call "Simply made up from the posters imagination". So in order to avoid being nonfactual posters should refrain from making blanket statements like programs are abusive.. rather they should state that their personal experience was an abusive one.
I think we can agree here because there is no evidence or studies to support that all programs are abusive so we need to be clear and to avoid blanket statements is what I am hearing.
This leaves us with the fact that some programs are abusive and others are not which is a realistic conclusion based on the above posts.
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Very interesting conversation here and I appreciate the civility as well - believe it or not. Since max is being particularly nice today I thought i might ask this (fair) question: Since you are obviously not an ignorant person and seem to want to have a legitimate discussion, then why do you continue to use program buzz words and phrases that you must know are guaranteed to provoke the strongest and most negative responses? After being in Straight inc I absolutely hate terms thrown around like "manipulative" and such. But you know this Max cause you aint dumb. So why choose to say things and phrase things like you are speaking right out of some program script? Cant you understand that for those of us who never belonged in a program in the first place would automatically become offended by having program terminology used to describe us.
Isn't it obvious? Max is a self-admitted product of one of these programs. I don't believe
he conciously chooses to to use program buzz words, he just can't help it. Max expresses his views according to how he was programmed too. It's no mystery why Max sounds like he's reading the program's script - because he is, and it's the same exact script they make all
the programmies memorize. No original thought what-so-ever, just regurgitating the same pro-program bullshit over and over again.
At straight we had these things called open meetings. This was a Friday night event where parents and interested persons were brought into the building to view the program. These were always very carefully scripted events. People were preselected to stand up and give "testimonials" to the audience. I guess part of the reason Max irritates me so much is that his posts here sound word for word like these "testimonials". They take me right back to that place. Sitting there and listening to those coerced confessions.
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It seems we've found some common ground then, doesn't it? We are in agreement that the last post by this user that claimed that programs are safer than any other form of treatment was simply made up from his/her imagination. Of course there is no data to suggest the veracity of that statement. It's simply a factually unsupported opinion of this single poster repeated ad nauseum on this single forum.
Thanks, Watchful Yeoman, its a good point. So basically you are saying that when someone states that abuse occurs in "all" programs this is what you call "Simply made up from the posters imagination". So in order to avoid being nonfactual posters should refrain from making blanket statements like programs are abusive.. rather they should state that their personal experience was an abusive one.
I think we can agree here because there is no evidence or studies to support that all programs are abusive so we need to be clear and to avoid blanket statements is what I am hearing.
This leaves us with the fact that some programs are abusive and others are not which is a realistic conclusion based on the above posts.
Programs which utilize coercive thought reform techniques are inherently abusive by the very nature of their "treatment" modalities, wouldn't you agree?
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I thought the topic was, "Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?" Why are we not talking about this. It seems instead we are continually diverted into whether coerced thought reform is bad and people do not deserved to be abused, which are great topics in and of themselves but are not directly related to where this thread was supposed to go.
Addressing this topic,
Simple answer is no and yes. Depends upon the needs for certain children. Children are being sent to TC's that should have been placed in Psychiatric facilities and visa versa. I was placed in a PW when I was young for running away from home, stealing and down right belligerence. This is when I learned about Thorazine, especially when you were misbehaving there. Thank god my mother came when she did.
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Kids sent to psyche hospitals would have no business being in programs. Hospitals treat the most acute cases. Programs, on the other hand, will take anyone who can afford it and often deliver no treatment whatsoever, as a lawsuit against Aspen Education Group recently revealed.
Kids are also sent to psych hospitals for no good reason as well. Sometimes even court-ordered there. Some well-meaning judges feel that such a stay would be preferable to a stint in Juvie for "soft-core" cases such as running away or truancy, particularly when no other "safe" alternative exists locally. Of course, once the hospital gets ahold of the kid, they pathologize the situation 'till the parents' health insurance coverage runs out.
Sometimes the paper trail originates in the local public school, particularly if the kid is an inordinately live wire and the school Admins would rather prefer to deal with a more compliant and perhaps even chemically lobotomized pupil. Mandatory psychiatric "assessments" can then be called for, particularly when enough incident reports have been compiled to cover their asses in case of parental protest. These days, hospitals EXPECT to be medicating any kid that comes through their doors for such an assessment. And so it starts, sometimes for no good reason at all...
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Kids sent to psyche hospitals would have no business being in programs. Hospitals treat the most acute cases. Programs, on the other hand, will take anyone who can afford it and often deliver no treatment whatsoever, as a lawsuit against Aspen Education Group recently revealed.
Kids are also sent to psych hospitals for no good reason as well. Sometimes even court-ordered there. Some well-meaning judges feel that such a stay would be preferable to a stint in Juvie for "soft-core" cases such as running away or truancy, particularly when no other "safe" alternative exists locally. Of course, once the hospital gets ahold of the kid, they pathologize the situation 'till the parents' health insurance coverage runs out.
Sometimes the paper trail originates in the local public school, particularly if the kid is an inordinately live wire and the school Admins would rather prefer to deal with a more compliant and perhaps even chemically lobotomized pupil. Mandatory psychiatric "assessments" can then be called for, particularly when enough incident reports have been compiled to cover their asses in case of parental protest. These days, hospitals EXPECT to be medicating any kid that comes through their doors for such an assessment. And so it starts, sometimes for no good reason at all...
You are absolutely dead on there, Ursus. I was sent by a recommendation by the school board and my parents. ( Mind you, my parents did not fess up to the abuse going on in the household.) The State of R.I. paid for this stay of abuse.
Oh and I am sure to have compiled a inordinately amount of "papertrail" concerning my behavior in school and out.
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I noticed a lot of kids in the hospitals would stay for very short periods of time like five days. Many insurance companies won't pay that much for psychiatric care. I think a big reason private programs exist is because there is a demand for something not quite as acute as hospitalization but also more than just local therapy and such.
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No national statistics are currently kept, but a 2005 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services found that 33 states had recorded more than 1,600 incidents of abused children in similar programs that year, according to the GAO.
Since no national statistics are kept and state-level data shows 1,600 incidences of abuse in parent-choice programs in just the year 2005 (in only 33 states), it appears claims about the "safety" of programs is simply a machination of someone's imagination. There are no facts to support that conclusion whatsoever.
Well Yeo, they really don't detail whether those 1600 incidences were factual or not either, were they investigated and proven to be true or were they summited in a report to be evaluated.
So, Who???? is making what up, really.
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As far as backing it up with a citation. I will follow the general rules which are accepted here. If people can state that "All Programs are Abusive" and "no kids benefit from them" without a link to a study which supports it then I think it is fair to allow other people to post without citing their sources also. I am not being difficult, Anne, just trying to be fair.
It seems we've found some common ground then, doesn't it? We are in agreement that the last post by this user that claimed that programs are safer than any other form of treatment was simply made up from his/her imagination. Of course there is no data to suggest the veracity of that statement. It's simply a factually unsupported opinion of this single poster repeated ad nauseum on this single forum.
I have seen no evidence whatsoever to support anything even remotely resembling that remark. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Available data suggest that these programs are actually quite dangerous to life and limb, not to mention a child's mind.
There is no evidence that you have put forth that even comes close to what you are trying to convince posters here of. Anyone can grab a snippet here and there to claim whatever. Just like you said, it is your imagination and or experience depending upon the day and where you want your argument to go.
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1. Psychiatric wards have edible, non-moldy food and real live canned beverages.
Children's Psychiatric Hospital of Northern Kentucky doesn't.
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Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
Psychiatric hospitalization IS a program!!!
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:karma:
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I noticed a lot of kids in the hospitals would stay for very short periods of time like five days. Many insurance companies won't pay that much for psychiatric care. I think a big reason private programs exist is because there is a demand for something not quite as acute as hospitalization but also more than just local therapy and such.
Ummm. (Many) Programs not as acute as psych? Programs are 24/7 mindfucking machines. The worst part? They pretend to be normal, responsible purveyors of emotional health. A nice little ranch in the woods to send your teens. Hoseback riding! Hiking! Farms!
At least psych hospitals don't pretend to be what they are not. Quality differs, but they don't purvey the illusion of emotional, mental, and physical freedom. The physical structure and environmental context does not pretend to be what it isn't.
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Well a better word than acute might also be, less expensive. Hospitalization costs a lot of money, I remember them telling me it was well over 1k a day, so most parents can't pay that kind of money out of pocket. So insurance companies become the gatekeeper whether your child can or cannot stay in the hospital a few days longer. I've seen desperate parents pleading with the doctors to keep their child just a few more days, but if insurance won't pay, then the kid goes home. In that situation a parent might want to have their child placed in an environment that is controlled 24/7, but not quite the level of care of a psychiatric hospital, because that way the cost will be less. I think it's a positive thing that programs take place in beautiful rural areas, rather than the locked doors, bars, and thick plexiglass windows you usually find in a hospital. Hospitalization could be considered an illusion since most of the patients are highly medicated, and kept in controlled environment, things quickly change when the kid leaves.
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So-called hospitals commit insurance fraud to keep kids locked up longer. Happened to me, happened to lots of people.
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Yeah, my reply was too simplistic. I just meant that programs aren't transparent. And psych hospitals make sane people nuts. (there was study on this.)
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From what I have read Psychiatric hospitals don’t really do much good long term unless the person is committed to a state hospital. They can stabilize a patient and keep them safe. The hospital provides an excellent arena for performing an evaluation and determining long term treatment and defining medications etc. They provide short programs designed around what insurance companies pay (not what the patient needs) But they rarely cure anyone. There is always on going work outside the hospital that the patient needs to do.
Programs provide a unique environment and an opportunity to turn a child around and put them on the right track. They are long term and out of pocket. Stays can be extended if needed and the emerging studies are showing that a high percentage of kids are helped by these places.
From the child’s perspective I am sure a psych hospital would be the better choice because they don’t have the ridged structure that many programs have and they get out in 30 to 90 days.
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I've noticed some posters on fornits make the argument that the "professionals" should be left to deal with troubled teens, and suggest parents seek the services of psychiatry, and adolescent psychiatric hospitals to act as a safety net when dealing with a mentally ill or self destructive teenager.
What reasons do people have to assume psychiatry or psychiatric hospitalization is superior to say, a wilderness program?
What reasons would someone suggest that psychiatric medication therapy is better than say, large group awareness training?
As someone who has experienced both version of treatment, I do believe there is some differences between the two. I don't have to get into details at this moment, and I wanted to post this thread before I forgot about it. But I will come back and make detailed posts using my own expereinces as the foundation for my opinions on this subject. But in the mean time, people can think about this and come up with their own arguments and theories.
Are there alternatives to programs like psychiatry that offer solutions to the same problems parents are facing when thinking about sending their teen to a program?
Why do so many parents seek out private programs, when psychiatric services are readily available?
There are no reasons. I spent 4 years in psych programs (inpatient and outpt). There is little difference. I saw hypothermia, overuse of mechanical restraints, and overuse of solitary confinement. Overuse is anything beyond a reassessment at 15 minute intervals, and bugs in my food (industry standard).
LGATs and Psych hospitals are very much alike. Visit one as a patient and you shall see. You are demeaned, locked up "for your own safety" and told when to piss and poop.
Are there other solutions? Pay attention to your kids! Treat them like humans. Don't hit them, yell at them, or abuse them in anyway shape or form. Send them to a relative that cares if you can't handle them. Maybe the relative has an inkling. My grandparents knew from looking at me, that I was miserable and did not belong in a program. They knew I was gay and that was not wrong. I would have been with strict people that understood me.
Parents are fed up with parenting or the problems involved in parenting. Their own parents did not want to bother and they use that as an excuse. I have heard the excuses. There are no excuses!!!.
Get creative. Had my parents let me take the GED and start college it would have solved the "so called" problem. I was bored and a lesbian! Once I was in college and 2000 miles away I was much happier, and stopped doing drugs. I am back home and using drugs (then again, I do have real physical pain) again. Put 2+2 together! Think with as much of a brain as you have.
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It’s not exactly an incisive question, but I’ll put my 2¢ in that treatment abuses are fucked no matter whether the *cottage* you’re in is actually lockdown unit or on an RTC campus or for that matter if the abuses are meted out while being marched into the wilderness with no cottage in sight.
Here’s a thread starter: Which is better in your drinking water hexavalent chromium or Corynebacterium diphtheriae? Or which is worse to have broken... your body and mind or only your spirit?
http://www.propublica.org/article/psych ... utions-inc (http://www.propublica.org/article/psychatric-cares-peril-and-profits-psychiatric-solutions-inc)
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It’s not exactly an incisive question, but I’ll put my 2¢ in that treatment abuses are fucked no matter whether the *cottage* you’re in is actually lockdown unit or on an RTC campus or for that matter if the abuses are meted out while being marched into the wilderness with no cottage in sight.
Here’s a thread starter: Which is better in your drinking water hexavalent chromium or Corynebacterium diphtheriae? Or which is worse to have broken... your body and mind or only your spirit?
http://www.propublica.org/article/psych ... utions-inc (http://www.propublica.org/article/psychatric-cares-peril-and-profits-psychiatric-solutions-inc)
The article found at the above link is the OP of the following thread:
- Psychiatric care's peril and profits - PSI · viewtopic.php?f=71&t=30765 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=30765)
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A great book on the misuse of PSI and psych care in general is as follows: http://http://www.amazon.com/Bedlam-Profiteering-Mental-Health-System/dp/0312104219/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1285043836&sr=1-9
The Chambers brothers are mentioned in it, I do believe. The things that took places in the psych facilities is horrific! I spent too long in them to not know that. I do truly wish my mother had kept my letters home. I would have written a book with them. There was one woman, that was in restraints the whole time I was there. She used to throw her feces across the room, since no one came to check on her, and allow her to go to the bathroom.
I almost committed suicide as a way out of there at one point. Later I hoarded little bits of money from our outings and almost ran away. Later I would realize that I had no place to go, and no one that would retrieve me. .The only person who believed me about the abuse was my brother's roommate. Unfortunately, I did not know how to reach him. Timberlawn was not PSI, but it was bad. By the time I got out, I thought it was normal for cereal to have bugs in it. posting.php?mode=reply&f=9&t=31125# (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/posting.php?mode=reply&f=9&t=31125#)
I was mortified for years to let anyone near my accounts; additionally, I pretended to like guys (UGH!). It was all crazy. Life settled down for me about 5 years later. Upon getting out my view of the world was very convoluted.