Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Mission Mountain School => Topic started by: hannah on May 03, 2005, 07:20:00 PM
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`This is really really important, what you guys are doing
thought a lot about my experience at MMS-since I have left. I have alot of respect for your intentions. I also have due respect and gratitude for what I recieved from MMS (for example being told to do things I didn't want to do, the truth being that I didn't want to do anything anybody told me to do, because I had my answers on life itleast I thought I did) elements that you all are pointing at and calling abusive.
The truth is one MMS has changed ten fold since I have been there and has a completely different face since you graduated.
I find most of the posting here especially the letter to Colleen un professional, and based in self-centered fear. I have read alot of posts and my observation is that they are mostly pleas of righteous pride and anger, this unfortunately does not help anyone. And especially does not serve as anything useful because there is nothing here that can really be used agianst MMS ( this seems to be your intention, "to shut down the school.") When ever I have something I need to look at in my life and I find my self righteously angry about it and blaming someone else for my life-I have to ask my self and sit with this question, "After all didn't I set the ball rolling?"
I will never be able to deny experience there, I think about it everyday. Reading through all of these postings leaves me in still more ambiguity about what the majority of MMS Alum have to say about their time spent there.
Though I really thought about your statement earlier, "how you wouldn't send your daughters to MMS." And the truth is that I wouldn't either, I wouldn't wish my brian, issues, and hard time on anybody especially my children, and the last thing in the world I would want to do is send them away anywhere. My parents loved me that was not enough, because no one was raising me. This place was made to help young girls to grow up into women. And yeah it was a process of separating the women from the girls. My experience there wasn't supposed to be easy, I was being sent to treatment, because I was not living life, I was dying.
Maybe I shouldn't have children then because Being a teenage girl in this world is throughly uncomfortable. Though all I can talk about is my experience, being that I was safer and growing @ MMS. And I think that a question that I would like to pose is what would have become of you if you weren't sent there? I know for me that I definately would not be in college, perhaps dead, on the streets, with no dreams, and still know idea of how to ask for help.
Not everyone has the backbone and fortitude to learn from this tough love based institution and come out better for having gone and Then there is the other outcome feeling abused and worse for having gone. I beleive that I came out of this insitution better for having gone.
Though I have had to still have my own experience of life after MMS. I have been angry and i have thought some things wrong about MMS. Yeah I got thrown away by my family, and sent to montana for two years, no boys, no alcohol, and I felt like those two years were stolen in some way. I had to work through this stuff after I graduated. Left standing is that those two years were the most important two years out of my young adult life, and I learned the most, and grew the most when I was there. I am still learning from my experience there, and agian I am not saying that I am on a pink cloud because @ MMS I learned some hard ass shit, like that my Mom was dying and I didn't want her to, my Dad had a drinking problem, I learned I was an alcoholic there, I learned that I had to live everyday to its fullest because needless to say we are all at risk for something, but I knew what I was at risk for the same thing my mirroring image, my mother is still currently dying of. Facing my worst fears, issues, and needed restitution- was fucking hard, and its still hard, and there is nothing pink, or fluffy about it.Fluffy pink clouds have never been my experience in life, and i don't remember reality every being a pink cloud.
I also know and have stated earlier that MMS is changing and I beleive open to more changes and I think talking to John is the most important step that you can take in doing this.
I want to state for whatever record this pertians to that there was absolutely no physical abuse, and there was no sexual abuse when I was there, and I have yet to hear of any direct accusation.
This is not about making anybody happy or pleasing anyone. This is about me finding my own truth and really encouraging other to really search there souls, mind, and memories for theirs.
Doing my best to understand, and speak up
Hannah
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Here, here!!!!
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Honestly I would have done much better without the school. I should have applied myself to volunteer work or something where could help people how are less fortunate than myself. That would have been an awesome experience rather than MMS screwing me over and actualy making me a social retard..and fearful of too many things.!
save your preaching for something else.
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do you think you would have really applied yourself willingly, and independantly-- to doing community service with people less fortunate then yourself?
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Many people do. Even young people. There are many options other than sending children away when they are faced with problems. I do believe there are times when intervention is needed such as when a child is suicidal or seriously drug addicted. But there are hospitals for such things. Kids shouldn't need to be sent to institutions where they lose contact with everyone in their lives, everyone they truly love. You can make new friends and learn to love new people but I certainly do not think it is healthy to remove children from their lives. Again, I understand the need for intervention at times, just not the need to send children thousands of miles away to remote places that are not licensed or regulated, that are not monitored, where people without proper credentials can practice possibly damaging therapies that they are not qualified to practice. Some of those can be downright dangerous to children, some leave lasting scars, as we have seen here.
There is a need for reform, it's obvious. There is a need for more regulation and more oversite. That's obvious too. Children have rights but somehow when their parents are willing to pay enough to have them locked up what rights are left for them? How can you exercise your rights when you are stuck out in the middle of no where with adults controlling your every single move, if they want to. They can make you do whatever they want. If they want you to live in a tent alone in the middle of no where, out there with the wolves and who knows what else, then make you build a fence for THEIR property, that's just not fair.
They can make girls sit outside in the middle of the night telling their innermost secrets that they should not be forced to reveal. Some are forced to say things that are not even true. That is where you will find the hostility here. At least that's where I see it. They lost themselves to these people who made them do things that no one should be forced to do. Then they had to do things to hurt their own friends. How can that be useful, helpful, therapeutic?
There is right and there is wrong. Many of the things that these girls have experiences if wrong. Period. There's no sugar-coating it, is there? No one is talking about wanting to live on a pink cloud. I doubt any of us do. But they had THEIR experiences that we hurtful and harmful and that are as real today as they were then.
I was abused as a child, though no one would admit it back then. In therapy I discussed it and worked through it. I have discussed it with friends and that has helped as well. These girls are doing that here and they should not be damned for it. Instead they should be receiving support for what they've experienced.
This has turned into a rediculous tug-of-war.
"Good experience - - - - - - - - Bad experience"
It should not be a tug-of-war. Some sensitivity here would be so nice. I read where Ginger talked about some of the things that go on in other posts on Fornits. I won't even read those because people get downright crazy in my book. Here, I don't feel anyone is crazy, just hurt and confused.
I think why people defend the ones with bad experiences is because they were harmed. They are here to talk about it and to try to work through it, it sounds like.
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I agree with that your experience needs to be supported, I support who ever you are. Its hard to support an anonymous bag with eyes on a computer. What I want to support for all of the girls that are hurting is your feelings. I have read things on here about abuse I thouroghly don't agree with that, and having been there I have a say, because I experienced the same things.
I was resentful at one point because I didn't see my Mom for 9 months and when I did she was a completely different person, she progressed in her disease, I was called into the office and told that I was leaving @ 4 am to go to Kalispel and then San Diego, because she was in the ICU (my parents live in NM at the time). This happened about 2 months before my first home visit was supposed to happen. I found myself in a familar world a changed person and my Mother changed as well. She couldn't talk, could,t eat through her mouth anymore, she looked liked she belonged in the ICU in San Diego. I was resentful towards the school because this happened in my life. My truth is that the reason I was in MMS had everything to do with my actions, it wasn't a mistake. I was present and sober for my family the first time in my life. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done walking around the corner of the ICU and seeing her there, with my Father. and ever since then I have been stepping up to bat, with my family, and my Mother. Being resilient is a virtue I have always had but only tapped into @ MMS. I have been a good daughter, I have no regrets from the past anymore about how I wasn't a good anything for so long. Because before I went to MMS, I thought I had real friends, I didn't as soon as I was out of money, drugs are alcohol, they didn't need me anymore. I had lost how to be a daughter, a friend, and I had lost myself. If I hadn't been at the school when this had happened or had this place to go back to, I really don't think I would be sober anymore, I know I woudln't have relationships with my Dad.
I don't think I am engageing in a tug of war and I am not trying to be preachy I am telling you my experience and my observations of what is going on here and what happened @ MMS. It has been almost 5 years since I went there, The two years that I spent there was so important. I was of no use to my family and to tell you the truth I could hardly make my bed, and take care of a bunny my first year there.
What I see here is a bunch of hurt feelings, not concrete allogations of abuse. I especially don't see any harm I see hurt. I hope that makes sense.
This is not black or White for me at all! I don't think I have been filled with all good experience or all bad What I am trying to advocate is Where would you be without MMS? Ponder this please....
Your feelings are very important to me, please believe me. I am doing my best through the screen, and the fact that I don't know who I am responding to 75% of the time is frustrating to me.I don't understand what we have to hide and who we are hiding form.
I love everyone....You are all important and irraplaceble to me.
I hope that we can come together and be together @ MMS this Summer! Because it wouldn't be worth it without my sisiters.
as much love and support and good thought being sent your way.-Hannah
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Hannah-
The abuse that we are talking about is:
1. Verbal abuse by staff i.e. in group, on physical challenges. (I personally remember a staff member "mooing" at a heavier girl who could not ride her bike up a hill and making her cry and even then not stopping. Is that not an abuse of power? Girls being forced to drink quarts of water at every meal and then not being able to go to the restroom, sometimes wetting thier pants because they were told they were lying they didn't really have to go.) Lots more specific examples where that came from.
2. Using their power to manipulate young girls into believing that they have multiple addictions when in fact they do not have anything of the sort. Is that not abuse? When I left, and I know a lot of others can attest to this, I thought I was and alcoholic, drug addict, eating disordered, sex addict, kleptomaniac. None of which I remotely struggle with today. Do you realize how many years it took to sort myself out after that? Don't you think a qualified therapist should have diagnosed me rather then a recovering alcoholic? Is that not abuse/mal-practice?
3. Living in fear everyday that you are there of what might happen to you that day. You are at the mercy of a staff thats having a bad day, or a girl that is out to get you or "call you out." That a staff member might decide to scream at you, or you end up on intervention sleeping in the snow in a tent. Most good programs have clearly defined levels you do this, you get this, no questions about it. It was like living with an alcoholic parent. No predictability on how you would be treated that day ever.
Now those are three major points that everyone in this forum can relate to, can we not? We could go on and on. Are these not some examples of abuse?
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i agree with everything u just said
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Before I was sent away, I did volunteer work. I also did many drugs and had lots of sex which hurt me and I knew it and I did a lot of stupid shit. I saw a therapist, but she was crap and it was hard to find a good one. The one I am seeing now is great, but if I had gone to her at that point in my life (before MMS), I would never have gotten anywhere.
I was taken to the local hospital where they had a mental hospital and a drug rehab. They evaluated me and asked me to join a program there. I said no, because I didn't want to waste my time when I could be out getting high.
Some of my friends were offered either a hospital stay or an arrest so they chose the former. Others were forced to go to Linden Oaks. These kids told me they all came out more messed up. They were just kept on drugs the entire time and didn't do much besides meet other druggies and make potential drug deals.
Maybe if the trauma had occurred sooner to when my parents finally started trying therapy, it would have helped. But everything had been kept so pent up inside me I didn't even know how to begin to open up to facing it. I was angry, and people who tried to help me were enemies. Even my druggie friends told me I needed help and was on the way to burnout and they were worried. I got so pissed and scared the crap out of them they apologized profusely and felt as if they did something wrong. And I listened to my friends more than anybody else... and least of all my parents or anybody in authority who tried to help.
I'm not saying I condone the hurt some people believe they were caused by MMS. I know I needed a drastic intervention of the sort, being sent far away, etc. And even then I tried to run away and get back to my friends so I could use. I was so desperate to escape feeling that anything short of that type of intervention would have been useless. I was very good at getting my own way and I would have outlasted the treatment at the hospital which has not helped any of the many people I knew who went there, and I would have figured out how to run away from any place closer especially with contact with the outside world, besides my parents.
I needed wilderness, being sent to some godforsaken place in Texas... it helped because I knew there was no way out (not to mention the weird African wildlife)... but even afterwards, when I had begun to change, it was not long enough or tough enough and I could have easily gone back to my old ways.
I may have lost my point somewhere in there. Maybe not all of the girls needed to be there. And those girls should have been weeded out when their parents applied. But I know I needed that type of intervention (out in the middle of nowhere, no outside contact, etc.) in order to even BEGIN to get my attention.
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Oh I also did agree with some of the things you said, anon.
I don't agree that taking a kid out of what they know for a couple years to help them is bad, but my parents moved while I was away and now it is very hard for me to find a footing, especially coming back so raw (partially my fault because I left without graduating). I agree that it is hard for children to be removed from their lives... but I also think you need to look at what kind of life you're removing them from. I even think if I had gone back home to Chicago after I had left, I would be smoking pot if not more by now. So I don't know... it's debatable... and it all depends on the individual and their situation.
I gained a lot from the therapy at MMS, and I haven't been able to find a therapist as helpful as some of the ones we had there (I specifically had Jim Rogers, but Gary and John helped me too ... I had a couple groups with John because I wasn't doing well).
I think what helped me a lot was that I was pretty forthcoming. I have never liked to keep things back, so it was not hard for me. I know that when you have been sexually abused, you need to talk about it, all the details no matter how disgusting. And it is not a shameful thing, or it should not be, and if the person felt shamed, either it came from inner beliefs or the environment (the group, or the therapist which I doubt).
And secrets are rarely good. There is shame or, worse, manipulation/control involved with secrecy, and that is a lot of what fucked up my family and myself. I can understand if they made them talk about random secrets that were not relevant, but I never saw that when I was there.
I went to MMS around 2002-2004. Maybe the school had changed for the better since you'd left, and it is always and still changing. I know I still had problems with wanting approval, but that is in many ways a part of life, and it is healthy in some ways because adolescent morality is based on approval from peers.
I can understand how people would feel hurt by things that happened to them and I read some accounts that left me saddened because a girl was harmed. I understand your points, and I may sound like I am championing the school (I am in part because they helped me) but I am just looking at the other side of what you were talking about. I do that, sometimes too much... I look at the other side of what I'm talking about even and can never form an opinion because I do that too much.
And sorry if I sound argumentative, I don't know if I do... I just lapse into that sometimes because I like to argue too much.
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On 2005-05-04 14:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
When ever I have something I need to look at in my life and I find my self righteously angry about it and blaming someone else for my life-I have to ask my self and sit with this question, "After all didn't I set the ball rolling?"
Is the answer ever "No"? Or is everything your fault all the time?
The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein
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On 2005-05-03 16:20:00, hannah wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't have children then because Being a teenage girl in this world is throughly uncomfortable. Though all I can talk about is my experience, being that I was safer and growing @ MMS. And I think that a question that I would like to pose is what would have become of you if you weren't sent there? I know for me that I definately would not be in college, perhaps dead, on the streets, with no dreams, and still know idea of how to ask for help.
First off, no one here or anywhere can ever know that. I can guess what would likely have happened in my life if my mom had never joined that cult. And, frankly, my prospects were pretty damned good. And I can tell you that the suicide and general failure rate among people "helped" by attack therapy is extremely high compared to the rest of the population.
Not everyone has the backbone and fortitude to learn from this tough love based institution and come out better for having gone and Then there is the other outcome feeling abused and worse for having gone. I beleive that I came out of this insitution better for having gone.
Well I believe you came out of that institution a sanctimonious, self rightious prig. Backbone and fortitude? So everyone who's unhappy w/ the way these people treated them is flawed? If only they had your backbone and fortitude they'd clearly see that they are the worthless losers and MMS is the only salvation for their sorry asses?
And you wonder why people get upset about the things you say? :roll:
The function of the press is very high. It is almost holy. It ought to
serve as a forum for the people, through which the people may know freely what is going on. To misstate or suppress the news is a breach of trust.
--Mr. Justice Brandeis
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On 2005-05-04 09:23:00, hannah wrote:
I really don't think I would be sober anymore, I know I woudln't have relationships with my Dad.
Is that because he doesn't support your program?
Hanna, you really shouldn't be carrying around all this guilt. Think about it. What you describe is, believe it or not, a normal teenaged outlook. Teenagers are supposed to be self absorbed, wreckless and adventurous. Sometimes, they've even been known to go way wrong for awhile. That you weren't able to be the grown up when your mom got sick is not a horrible dysfunction. That you grew up at MMS is just tragic. You would have grown up anyway, but it might have been a whole lot more pleasant and you may even still have had a dad.
Ya' just never know about what might have been. To make certain that crime does not pay, the government should take it
over and try to run it
--G. Norman Collie
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On 2005-05-04 16:36:00, aileen wrote:
I may have lost my point somewhere in there.
Yeah, you did. Looks like you got caught up in all the cult lingo and mindset and sort of dazed there for a few. That's what the cult experts call "floating".
Maybe your olddruggie friends weren't all that bad and maybe the sex wasn't always of the hurtful variety? Nobody runs away from the direction of Seattle to get drugs, Hannah. Maybe there was something special about some of those particular druggies?God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"
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On 2005-05-04 16:55:00, aileen wrote:
I don't agree that taking a kid out of what they know for a couple years to help them is bad,
No, we're not talking about a regular boarding school w/ phone access, regular breaks for hollidays and summers, mail, etc. We're not talking about taking a kid out of what they know. We're talking about totally shutting a kid off from everything and everyone they have ever known.
but my parents moved while I was away and now it is very hard for me to find a footing, especially coming back so raw (partially my fault because I left without graduating).
What a major mind fuck! Mine too. It backfired, though. I just went home. And all the better because my mom wasn't there actively sabotaging me anymore.
I agree that it is hard for children to be removed from their lives... but I also think you need to look at what kind of life you're removing them from. I even think if I had gone back home to Chicago after I had left, I would be smoking pot if not more by now.
Which would make you just like around half of your contemporaries. So what?
So I don't know... it's debatable... and it all depends on the individual and their situation.
I gained a lot from the therapy at MMS, and I haven't been able to find a therapist as helpful as some of the ones we had there (I specifically had Jim Rogers, but Gary and John helped me too ... I had a couple groups with John because I wasn't doing well).
What type of therapy do they use at MMS? Are you talking about sleeping out in the snow? Or about forcing little girls to talk about sex in a room full of people? Or something else? I've always wondered what in the world a real therapist would do in an institution like that.
I think what helped me a lot was that I was pretty forthcoming. I have never liked to keep things back, so it was not hard for me. I know that when you have been sexually abused, you need to talk about it, all the details no matter how disgusting. And it is not a shameful thing, or it should not be, and if the person felt shamed, either it came from inner beliefs or the environment (the group, or the therapist which I doubt).
That is absolutely false! Reliving a traumatic experience again and again is not necessarily therapeutic. Certainly not under the hostile kind of circumstances you ladies have described. It's normal and healthy to feel shameful about sexual activity. That's why rape is such a mundfuck. That's why it breaks people. And thats why the Program always, in every instance, induces shame and humiliation, especially on the newcommers. Just look around, don't mind the walking wounded, and you'll see what I'm talking about.
And secrets are rarely good. There is shame or, worse, manipulation/control involved with secrecy, and that is a lot of what fucked up my family and myself. I can understand if they made them talk about random secrets that were not relevant, but I never saw that when I was there.
No, sometimes secrets are not good. But what's the therapeutic value of having to tell a room full of other allegedly troubled girls all of your most personally business?
I understand your points, and I may sound like I am championing the school (I am in part because they helped me) but I am just looking at the other side of what you were talking about. I do that, sometimes too much... I look at the other side of what I'm talking about even and can never form an opinion because I do that too much.
Some decisions are worth a taking a little time to mull over.
And sorry if I sound argumentative, I don't know if I do... I just lapse into that sometimes because I like to argue too much."
No, you don't sound argumentative or combative. It's ok to debate. It's not a dysfuction or a sign of lack of backbone and fortitude, as they say. I bet you're not half as flawed as you seem to think.Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
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The original post was "where would you be without MMS?
That's kind of an intersting question.
Here's what I do know. There were a whole lot of people when I was a teen who got into a whole lot of trouble i.e. drugs, alcohol, sex, you name it. Deep and serious trouble. Some landed in juvenille hall. Some even went to spend a day or two in jail (great wake-up call, by the way), and some, well God knows what happened to them.
But, the "some, well God knows what happened to them" are very few in number. Most fall somewhere in between, if they had these sorts of issues. Except for those very few who I have no idea what happened to them, be it good or bad, the rest survived, grew up, and wow, they even went to college.
And if you can believe this, without MMS, they went on to have a family and be productive wonderful adults. And they did it all on their own, with the help of their friends and families, some with the shit scared out of them after spending a couple of nights in jail or juvi. Convinced that just wasn't what they wanted for the rest of their lives.
Amazing stuff, life. Life without MMS, or life without any residential facility. Just plain old life. Life as a teenager is weird, I think just about anyone would agree. Gee, I had a girl who thought she was a horse or something. She would go around and kick you for no reason, acting like she was a horse. Weird girl. A dentist's daughter. Drugs? Nope. I knew her, she was just damn strange. But a year later she was awesome and we became best friends the rest of high school. Go figure that one out.
Then there was this guy. Destined for death, we thought. For sure, and I'm being serious. He was so screwed up from taking drugs. Today, this kid would have definitely landed in a facility. I have no doubt. But back in those days there was a difference ... kids did not have to fear being abducted in the middle of the night, taken to remote places where they would be abused and mistreated. All in the name of therapy.
I wonder what the parents think when they hear they were paying up to 100k per year to send their kid to sit in middle-of-the-night therapy sessions with - well, a recovering alcoholic with a degree in - ecology? Of course we musn't forget that he is insightful and we shouldn't blame him. Of course not, he has his own "issues."
I got side-tracked there for a moment. This boy who we thought would certainly end up dead miraculously didn't. In fact, he ended up in juvenille hall for about a week or two and it scared him to death.
This was one sick looking guy before juvi. The only people who hung around him were other equally weird guys. And most of those guys did some time there too. And the next year, junior year I think it was, they came back to school and began to study and do well. I actually danced with one of them at a dance my girlfriend had, and then I even kissed one of them. I would have never even considered remotely doing that the year before. EVER.
My point is they got through it and they grew up. They grew up quite nicely, I might add. They all went off to college and made things of their lives, had families, and are productive human beings. Never once were they sent away, never once were they forced to shovel horse shit, never once were they humiliated in front of their friends, never once were they forced to share their innermost feelings in front of their peers, never.
Where are they now? Taking care of their families, working hard, and I haven't seen a one on Fornits complaining about what happened to them in high school. They worked through their problems. Parents didn't just send them away. Everyone helped. Not only parents but relatives and friends. Many times kids who got into trouble and were out of control ended up living with grandma for the summer.
A summer was enought to straighten them up. They get lots of love with granny but they also have to listen to her complain about the corns on her toes. Sick!
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No everything is not my fault all the time. I alway have a part, though in most instances there is always two sides. You know what your doing wasn't asked for, I don't think you know me and I didn't ask you to take my inventory from the little you have read. What I was saying about fortitude is that MMS was not easy it was hard. And I do beleive that anyone that followed through with it had backbone, strength, or whatever you want to decipher that as.
And what right or power do you have to be slicing up Aileens world and telling her its wrong. A big part about me not being in MMS especially when I got out was having my own experience, and not haviing someone to tell me what to eat or when to pee, or how to think! Cultlike? Brainwashing?
Look I have no idea, what the answer is. This doesn't feel like a solution I feel like I am getting squeezed off of this thing--If I don't join--then see ya--thats what it feels like.
And I am not faking that I am an Alcoholic and I am sure you know what alcoholism is?? I go to AA, and the way I drank was never normal. I never felt normal, and when I went to MMS I got glimpses of feeling apart of. And something that John said to me was "to go out into the world and always remember to create a community around you" So I have been active Daily in AA for abit now.
I don't think I want to be apart of this website anymore, I feel like I have said my peice and hopefully someone heard something, I have learned alot on this web-site and that welcome thing I was talking about earlier feeling welcomed, and like there is a place for me---this isn't it right now. I feel sad because well I think I know a lot of you and I think that we should beable to talk about it--I hope that everyone here knows that I care about MMS and I especially care about the people the girls. -H
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OKAY Antigen, whatever your name is,
do you really think what you're doing is fair?
wouldn't you think that you are "technically" behaving as an "unlicensed practitioner" using "attack therapy" resemblant methods to manipulate those with different beliefs than yourself? you're pretty much putting yourself on the same level that you have put john and everyone else at mission mountain and since you seem to think they are so terrible, think about what you are doing.
please stop quoting what everyone says and analyzing it. please stop insulting people with no reasonable cause. please stop discrediting peoples' personal experiences. nothing you are saying is conducive to any kind of solution to this problem that you think is so important.
take some time to examine yourself before you throw around harsh, judgmental statements like "sanctimonious, self righteous prig." please. at least for your own sake.
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Where's my $100k?
My name is right there in my sig.
Quit analysing what ppl say? What am I supposed to do then? Just answer w/o thinking first or are you asking me to quit answering?
I wasn't trying to povide therapy for your w/ my comment. I was personally offended by your tone. Believe it or not (and I take it you do not) plenty of people w/ great backbone and fortitude view these programs as harmful. In my personal opinion, falling for it is probably an indication of weekness, not the other way around.
Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ginger -
i respect the fact that you have your own opinion, but it is really inappropriate to be analyzing other people's lives like this. hannah is one of the strongest women i know, and she also has had one of the most tragic stories that i have known. so for you to be discrediting her life by telling her that her feelings before mms were "normal," is just down right mean. i'm not here to speak hannah's story, but i cannot sit here and read someone completely discounting an amazing woman's story of recovery by telling her that she is more screwed up now than she might have been had she not gone to mms. ginger - perhaps your experience before mms was "normal," and i understand why someone with a normal adolescent rebellion is resentful towards mms. its definitely not for people who are just "going through a phase." and yes - there are a lot of people out there who can go through tough spots in their adolescence and come out stronger. but there are a lot of young kids out there who can't. i wasn't going anywhere positive - i had lost fourty five pounds in five months, and i had absolutely no intention on stopping. is this just a "normal" phase? the fact that i stopped going to school alltogether so i could throw up seven times a day.... was that normal too? is that what teenagers just do? the fact that i punched the shit out of my mother and threw chairs at her because she wanted me to eat. is this normal? yes - i was self absorbed and wreckless - but here's the difference between my situation and "normal" teenagers. i was willing to die over it. before i left for montana, i would sit at home every day, having pretended to go to school. i would sit in my living room with the shades drawn and the phone unplugged. and i would eat and eat and eat. and i would cry. i would crawl to the bathroom because i couldn't walk, and would throw up until there was only blood. i would wait an hour, and then repeat the process. normal? i guess that's up to you to decide.
The point, ginger, is that we all have our own definitions of what is normal. its fine to be against mms, but it is really harmful to people when you brush off their life experiences as nothing at all. i am glad that you can see your teenage experience as normal - hell, i wish i could do the same sometimes! but i can't. and i really don't think anyone has the right to do it for me. hannah has come through so much in her lifetime. i talk to her on the phone when i am having a hard time because i admire how far she has come since we met. she's doing what she needs to do to take care of herself. if you don't know her story, don't tell her everything was fine. please, be angry but compassionate to people's sensitive pasts.
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you're replying to the wrong person. i am not hannah, and i'm not trying to defend myself, i am asking you to back down or at least try to start speaking for yourself. you are misinterpreting what people are saying and misconstruing perfectly reasonable accounts. i had a very neutral experience at mission mountain school - i didn't love it but nor did i despise it, and my backbone is fine. i'm not sure if you even understood what i said. of course you're not "on the same level as john" in terms of salary and whatever else you tried to justify your behavior with, but you are doing exactly what you've accused him of doing, behavior wise: trying to drill your personal thoughts and opinions into other people's heads by attacking them with abusive commentary. 100,000 dollars or not...that's still uncalled for. i am not attacking your opinion because it is totally valid and i am not about to try to talk you out of it and cause a fight (or be a hypocrite); i am asking you to behave like a respectful adult. i repeat, not even for my sake - but for your own.
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I'm not dismissing anyone's experience. It just chaps my ass when Program proponants blame the victim as Hannah very clearly did. "Some people just don't have the backbone and fortitude to learn from toughlove. But I do." The implication being that anyone who has any complaints ought to just shut up, it's their own fault the Program didn't "work" for them cause they're too weak.
Sorry, that's just a horrible thing to say to someone who's been through what you girls describe. It's about the same as telling a rape victim it's her own fault for not fighting harder. And I find that rather offensive.
I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure.
--Clarence Darrow
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"Some people just don't have the backbone and fortitude to learn from toughlove. But I do."
wow that comment says it all! It's like you are saying all of us who are making accusations against the school are completely screwed up, an we aren't very wise as you are, or the other girls who "took positive things out of it". Trust me I know about toughlove, and it does not mean that I have to allow people to step all over me.
you must be so much smarter than us because you managed "to see the light". My wisdom goes far beyond MMS.
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It doesn't appear to me that Ginger is doing what Mercer was doing. She's joining in converstation with the rest of us. She's not forcing you to reveal your darkest secrets and she's not forcing you to tell her everything, in great detail, about any sexual experience you had, or possibly did not have. She's telling her feelings about what she is reading.
There's a very definite riff here - some people truly had horrifying experiences at MMS and for them hearing others, some who they thought were their friends, discount their experiences and praise the school is a bit hard to swallow. I can understand them.
Someone has made some subtle threats to Ginger, I saw it in a few posts. That is not conducive to anything here. You are all saying what you want so there shouldn't be a problem with her interjecting her thoughts from experiences she has had in her life.
Settle down, girls.
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On 2005-05-04 19:17:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-05-04 16:36:00, aileen wrote:
I may have lost my point somewhere in there.
Yeah, you did. Looks like you got caught up in all the cult lingo and mindset and sort of dazed there for a few. That's what the cult experts call "floating".
Maybe your olddruggie friends weren't all that bad and maybe the sex wasn't always of the hurtful variety?
I lose my point because I ramble too much, I've always done that EVEN BEFORE I WENT TO MMS! OH MY GOD! COULD IT BE? LOSING MY POINT HAS NOTHING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MMS? Stop fucking analyzing me.
I didn't like it either when they overanalyzed us (which happened at times) at boarding school, but I definitely don't need it now.
Not to get bitchy but it's just fucking annoying.
No my old druggie friends weren't all bad, in fact I was a worse influence on them at times than the other way around. And no I'm not dumping on myself I tried to push drugs on them like crack so I wouldn't feel so bad about using them myself. And just because a lot of my peer group smokes pot and gets trashed in college doesn't mean that it's right for them or for me. And maybe they can handle it but all it did for me was get me fucked up in a bad way. It's not worth the risk of going back, because smoking pot already was an easy way for me to get back into the druggie culture and jump to shit like heroin and say fuck it all! I just want to get high and not do shit! And I can feel that tugging on me still sometimes.
And no the sex always was of the hurtful variety. I had sex with older guys because they were "hot" and popular and could give me the attention that recreated the sexual abuse I experienced. I was aware of the feeling even at the time though less consciously, I wanted to fuck my cousin.
I didn't even care about the people I had sex with, sometimes I did it just so they'd be friends with me. Or give me attention (though they hardly paid attention while we were doing the deed even) though afterwards they'd pretend I didn't exist and nothing had ever happened. I'd go home and feel shitty and binge and take a boiling shower... so gee, I think it was kind of harmful. I didn't think it was harmful because MMS told me it was. I knew it was, I just didn't want to stop because I didn't know any other way of dealing with these fucking feelings. I didn't know how to go about it.
I am having sex now with somebody I care about and it's damn good and it's not harmful and I can tell the difference.
Now I'm going back to your other post and seeing how else I can bitch.
Oh wait! I didn't say my old druggie friends were bad. In fact, I'm still friends with a bunch of them. However there were some relationships I know that they were just leeches and I didn't really care about them either it was just the bond that we were doing drugs together and that we were both fucked up. Those are people I'd go to today and be disgusted because they live a life of complete image and don't know who they are, they leech off the people around them to get love and an identity and I still sometimes wish I were there with them because that life was easy, though fucking painful because every day after coming home from being with my "friends" I'd cry and feel fucking alone inside. Those people aren't good for me because they'd want me to go back to the same old life we had before... I know because I was one of them.
However, some of my old druggie friends are cool and I had real relationships with them underneath it all. It STILL wouldn't have been good for me to call them at first because I tried to call my friend to meet me when I tried to run away, just as an example. I wanted to cling to them, cling to the druggie image I had instead of letting go and figuring out I was a person on my own. I wanted to stay in contact with them because I wanted to figure out ways I could get drugs shipped to me or I could plan to run away (which had nothing to do with MMS, I was always running away, I just wanted to go use and not give a shit about anything).
YEah I sound like a bitch. I'm pissed. Because I don't take everything at face value as I said, and I know what I'm saying, even though I lose my point because I digress a lot. I don't need you to preach at me and don't say you aren't you fucking sound preachy like I'm some dumb little cult product and I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about even though OH WHAT? this is my life and I'm inside my own fucking head!?! I've just been bitchy lately anyway. Maybe it's PMS. But yeah I'll calm down now and say I'm sorry if I've offended you but there are some valid points in what I say above.
Now I'll go look at your other post and get riled up again.[ This Message was edited by: aileen on 2005-05-06 01:53 ]
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You don't need to defend Antigen/Ginger. She's not a fucking god, and she's not as helpful as some people made her out to be in other posts I've read, not so open-minded, she is obviously against these places and insulting that girl she was talking to on pg 2 of this topic. Now she does make valid points at times, but she's not the fucking expert on everything.
What are your qualifications Ginger to say that this kind of therapy doesn't help girls? I know it helped me... I told every detail I could recall about being abused and it lifted a fucking boulder off my back. And I told it again in a group with my parents. And I felt even less burdened. Therapists who deal with children with sexual abuse ask them questions... for instance, my therapist deals with many sexually abused children (as well as sex offenders, and much else, she is qualified and experienced and a good therapist) and she recounts children who would blurt out everything that happens to them and tells it over and over again because saying it HELPS and lifts the shame off and takes away a little of the pain. Dammit I'm losing my point again because I'm ranting. It must be "floating," shit what else could it be, maybe I'm just a distractable person? What? Couldn't be.
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I needed to be removed completely shut off from the world because I am smart, thank you very much, and I could find ways to run off or do other shit. As I said in my above post, I also wanted to cling to a certain identity, and don't tell me that's healthy. Kids do it, it's a phase, but I needed to separate myself from that in order to figure out how I thought, how I felt, how I was, and not stay in that I don't give a fuck place because I took it to an extreme to where I didn't speak to my parents because I resented them so much and I fantasized about killing them and actually set it up trying to get myself to do it... don't tell me that's fucking normal. Even if that happened to you doesn't mean it's fucking good a lot of families are fucked up and it's more normal but not healthy.
Sleeping out the snow was not fun. It was, in some ways, if I think about it because we joked about shit. It was uncomfortable, but not a threat to our lives. It was a punishment, and I don't believe that punishment always works, even though that's how our culture runs... on punishment instead of discipline. Well fuck that's too bad why don't we blame the whole culture while we're at it.
The way you say things is skewed. Forcing? Little girls? Room full of people? Sex? Okay forcing, they told us to do certain things and from what I saw it helped.
They pushed a girl to yell "I'm not a victim" because she wouldn't believe it and she was still thinking that she couldn't help herself. She didn't want to do it. You could say they forced her but it's not like they physically forced her, or threatened her by putting a gun to her head. She was pressured sure.
Little girls makes it sound like we were seven year-olds. Sex, no not just sex, when I was there they didn't have us talk about just any sex. They had us tell the group not just "a room full of people" but people they spent every day with and knew and weren't strangers about sexual trauma because talking about it helps. I didn't speak a word about my abuse to anybody for about eight years. It was still there and growing. Then one day I told a random stranger about it online. And you know what? It didn't retraumatize me... I felt like a fucking ball of fairy dust afterwards. I felt amazing. And I was like, shit, I need to talk about this. But I didn't go about it the right way. When I talked in group and said things that were embarassing to say I felt great afterwards. Shame can be used in different ways. The type of shame that engulfs a sex abuse victim is not healthy. They feel dirty and shameful because they feel they were at fault, because they feel they are dirty and shameful not what happened to them. So talking about it helps to defy those underlying beliefs. I KNOW CUZ I WENT THROUGH IT AND I'M STILL GOING THROUGH IT.
Oh and I picked that sentence apart because that sentence was deliberately designed to present the issue a certain way to the reader, whether you were aware that you put it together taht way or it just came out because its waht you perceive and believe... Forcing little girls to talk about sex in a room full of people might as well be Encouraging young women to share their experiences with sexual abuse in a group of close peers. It's all skewed skewed skewed skewed.
And yes I am skewed too in certain ways. I believe that therapy helped me and it did. I believe I was not brainwashed by a cult. I do not condone the punishment method, because discipline can work better, but it takes a great deal of effort. I believe a lot of other crap too and see things my way but I am too tired to go about this. I just pointed that out because you said something about not taking sides or some shit along those lines in a post I read I really don't remember your exact words sorry if I screwed it up I have horrible memory.
I never felt shamed by anyone at school, not that I can remember. And do not tell me that's because I was brainwashed by a cult. I don't believe that.
I don't think I'm flawed. Where the hell did you get that shit from? I do get down on myself at times when I get depressed and it's stupid but I am not flawed. I used to think that, before going to MMS. I used to think I wasn't even a part of the human race, that I was just a filthy sex object... Gary actually helped me a lot with that, as did Jim Rogers, as did staff like Russell who talked to me like I was a person even though he was male and I was supposed to be nothing but sex to him (in my head), as did the girls who were real with me and treated me like a person... I gained a fucking lot out of the school, I don't agree with everything about the school or about life ... It needs work yes but no it's not a fucking cult that's fucking ridiculous and watch how you use that word it causes serious harm and people get all caught up like oh my god it's a cult it's not that's shit... you know what I have done research on cults before but once I get these finals out of the way I will go and do extensive research on cults and on brainwashing and then I'll come back to you and either say again it's shit or say okay I was wrong sorry. But for now, it's shit. shit hsithsithihtithsishit. okay it's late... i'm getting weird.[ This Message was edited by: aileen on 2005-05-06 02:33 ][ This Message was edited by: aileen on 2005-05-06 02:37 ]
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I just read what I wrote. I went a little far, I reread some other posts and I don't think Ginger you actually said you were not opinionated on the topic... I don't know where that impression came from. So apologies about that, I misunderstood something.
But the rest still stands for now.
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Aileen, Maybe you have ADD?
I figured out that I have that, not necessarily the source of all my problems, but certainly made it a struggle at excelling at things that would make it easier for me to move forward in my life...that is, succeed...I too would digress frequently and my writing were frequently as disjointed as your own.
Also, FYI it's not uncommon to want to fuck your cousin. And studies have shown that it's a myth and simply cultural taboo, but not genetically harmful to offspring procreated,(should offspring be produced)- which is the only leg the myth has to stand on. Don't know if you felt shame about that, but it's only society that makes that desire problematic. :smile:
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you said some girls make ginger out to be a God...and you asked what are her qualificatins for analizying things or...whatever that statement was...
anyway atleast she's hasn't opened a theraputic boarding school and analyzing girls, and "judging" through theraputic analysis without a theraputic licese.
chill out! she's just a chick stating her opinions
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Reading a post before sending a post is always a good idea. Venting is great, venting to complete strangers, well? I'm not so sure that's so great. I'd just read what I wrote before sending it if I were you. Since you do digress and you forget things. It's kind of like doing drugs or binging or any of those things many of us have done. You do it, it feels good at the time, but later that night or the next morning you feel like shit. I just want to give you a suggestion to read your posts again before sending them and then maybe even sleeping on them if you are writing late at night. Just a friendly suggestion so you don't say things you really would rather total strangers not know about you.
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i don't know if i have add... been considered by professionals before, but i don't know if i really fit the profile. who knows.
also, i know that the cousin thing really is just a taboo, but i dont think it's healthy to want to have sex with your abuser even though it happens because of some psychological crap... that's what i was talking about
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really, i thought this forum was for people to vent. huh. well i don't feel shitty about what i wrote, so i don't know what you're talking about. and i don't really care if complete strangers read my crap, it doesn't harm me any... all it does is waste a minute of your life. hah.
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oh the above two were me
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"Well I believe you came out of that institution a sanctimonious, self rightious prig. Backbone and fortitude? So everyone who's unhappy w/ the way these people treated them is flawed? If only they had your backbone and fortitude they'd clearly see that they are the worthless losers and MMS is the only salvation for their sorry asses? "-Antigen
Its surprising that you heard a tone through the computer. Also you drew alot out of this that wasn't said at all by the speaker! Just an opinion and yet one more perception ....Because everyone has a different perception---and to intiutively be able to read what peoples intentions are through a computer screen is a bit difficult? Wouldn't you say.....
Theres opinions, Judgments, and then there are observations. Isn't this a judgement?
It seems you judged whoever that was right off the website. Do you think that at all?
Is this website exclusive to people that agree with your opinions and experience?
I don't really feel safe putting anything personal up here or even give you my name.
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Ok, here is the exact quote from Hannah that so ticked me off:
Not everyone has the backbone and fortitude to learn from this tough love based institution and come out better for having gone and Then there is the other outcome feeling abused and worse for having gone. I beleive that I came out of this insitution better for having gone.
I've read it over about four times now, hoping maybe I just didn't read carefully enough or took it out of context the last time. But no, I can't find any way to interpret that statement, especially in the context of the rest of the post; more especially in the context of the other post around the same time "What I am asking and what I want Answers too.."
To my mind, what you're saying, Hannah, is essentially this; "Anyone with any backbone and fortitude would have benefited from this program like I did and wouldn't view it as abusive."
Is there any other way to read that?
Aileen, don't worry about it. Venting is good and, though I am sometimes opinionated and angry, it really takes some considerable effort to really hurt my feelings. I can take it!
Re: the "little girl" comment
I'm 40 years old. My oldest daughter is already 4 years older than I was last time I got stood up in girls' rap and the next one in line is just a year shy of that. When I think of those days, I remember telling myself I could handle it, that I was strong enough and smart enough and very much incontrol and invulnerable. But, from where I sit, I was a little girl then and so were all the other girls who participated in that madness. I really didn't mean to offend you w/ that. There's nothing wrong or shamful about having been a kid. But there is something very wrong and shameful about forcing (yes, forcing, not w/ a gun but w/ other, more personal forms of coercion) a kid to engage in intimate behavior against their will.
I don't doubt that you benefited from getting that stuff off your chest. But you must understand that some of those other girls could have done w/o having that sort of burdon placed on them, don't you? That's one of the flaws in the basic model of the Program. (and yes, what you ladies describe is exactly the way they did it in The Seed and Straight) It's normal and good and healthy to confide in someone you trust. It can be extremely "not good" to pour out your guts to a group of people who may or may not keep your confidence or handle the information and your feelings w/ competence and compassion. Worse still to expect those other kids to come up w/ good advice and commentary on those serious issues.
And that's the other major, major flaw w/ the base model of the Program. Earlier you said just exactly what we all said when we had to; that all of your old friends were just using you, none of them were real friends. I don't think that's ever true. But, in the Program, it's all black or white, good or bad. So just about all of us lost good friends and other really important relationships because we were not allowed to contact anyone not approved by staff (and that was a very short list!) While we were all "getting straight", they were going on w/ thier lives w/o us. When we came out, we were different, changed, affected in addition to just having missed out on a couple of years of what used to be our lives. Very few of us ever managed to pick up our real lives in any meaningful way. Almost anyone you talk to who spent a year or more in a synanon had to start over from scratch w/o those vitally important folks we knew back when.
And I have to laugh about what ya'll are saying about Colleen. Even now, all these years later (for some of you) she seems to be trying to call group on anyone who complains. Do you think she's able to grasp the concept that ya'll are not in the Program anymore? That she can't control you? That you all probably have a good enough grasp on basic mathamatics to notice that only a very rare few have been invited to the "reunion" and at least an average ability at pattern recognition to get a pretty good idea what the deciding factors are?
Don't get me wrong, a lot of people think this industry is all about the money and nothing else. I'm not one of those. I think the troubled parent industry is about narcissism and good intentions gone terribly, terribly wrong.
I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
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Where would I be without MMS?? How would I know, I didn't have the chance to find out! Maybe I would have straigtened my act out myself, maybe not. I probably wouldn't have had the "grades" to get into college though, and for that I am grateful. Though, my A in Calculus was really an A in tutoring the Geometry students. I remember Doug just got frustrated teaching us Calc so he had us help his Geometry class. Whatever, I'll take it... :smile: Who needs calc anyway? :smile:
Sarah H.
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I needed calc, and did not get it. Instead I got some whack functions class that I had to teach to myself, and test my self on, and then i had a what pre calculus class that had more stuff about trig than calc. I also needed chemistry and physics, but instead I walked around MMS looking at deer shit, and trying to survey how many deer passed by there in an ecology course. There was also the environmental science classes, which were good, but were of no help to me when I actually got to college.
Just because you do not take an interest in politics, doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
PERICLES (430 BC)
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ha ha! deer shit, that's funny! Yeah, education, definitely sub par...It was difficult catching up afterwards, what's up with that?
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Ya, especially at those prices!? You'd think the education would be top notch!
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When I was there at least the freshmen and sophmore classes were decent. But looking at the junior and senior classes I have no idea quite how they managed to make it seem so great. Taking those classes now and how hard they are at a private school baffles me to the comparison of MMS... I liked how on tours for parents they would say that the classes are taught at honors levels without the credability! Hahahah... oh man... parent tours. What a bunch of plastic smiles and bullshit lines that was. I was really genuine about it at the time but geeeeez. Why was I rooting for them so much? It wasn't THAT great. Ohhhh yeah, Brain washed. That was why.
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The was you say it is funny, but it is really true. I remember I was a tour girl before, and I would say the greatest things. I wanted the parents to say what a great girl I was..and hopefully it would be passed down to John and he would give me credit..Never really happenw. He could have cared less who was doing the tour as long as they gave a great tour about his "perfect" school. I am sure he loved hearing parents say how amazing and incredible the school was. What an ego builder. Also to the students credit- we made that school look so gosh darn clean! It was beautiful! What a beautiful fantasy it was! Who wouldn't want to send their child there after visiting?
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I wasn't allowed to give tours. :sad:
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I gave tours. I remember wishing that the educational consultants visiting could see me through the facade. I remember hoping that they would look at me closely and that if they did they would be able to see the fear and misery in my eyes. That someone I could send the message that this was not a good place from deep within my soul. I never managed to convey that or perhaps they weren't looking closely enough- don't know. They just couldn't read me- I said all the right things, did all the right things. They never saw me...the real me...
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Saddest day of all was the day I had to stand up and tell my best friend in the world how glad I was that he was there to get straight.
In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal.
--Unknown