Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Mission Mountain School => Topic started by: KatieH on June 01, 2005, 11:07:00 AM
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To all the girls
I just found this site and can truly say I was shocked and surprised by the negative experience some of you girls have had, I wish I knew who some of you were, maybe you can let me know who you are. I had a wonderful time at MMS, and I can honestly say some of the happiest memories of my life are from my time at MMS. I am now going to respond to some of the negative things posted here, please know that everything I say is my opinion derived from my personal experience and I have no wish to discredit anyone elses experience, be it good or bad.
I never felt John or Mike to be abusive, beligerent, arrogent I had to carry rocks around for a while, I found it helpfull in clarifying my personal issues. John and Mike were sometimes forcefull, but we as student were also often resistant, without a little gentle force how would be get in touch with the negative feelings and experiences that were holding us back and ruining our lives. As far as it being innappropriate to have the student do physical labor, I have never felt more accomplished than I did after I built a fence, or dug and built an outhouse, or cleared that damned lower field of daisys. Also, there is a line of thinking called Body psycotherepy, the idea is that we hold our emotions in our muscular skeletal system, and that by working those muscles we can get in touch with those emotions and release them. I know that all of us experienced at some point a emotional break or revelation after strenuous excersize.
I did not and do not have an eating disorder, and in my time at MMS, (I can truly say I believe I was the only one of you who was there with me that didn't.) I did not have a food plan because I did not need one. But I have seen what unchecked eating disorders do to women and think maybe you ladies need to take an honest look at yourself when it comes to your relationship with food.
I saw on one of the postings that someone questioned Mike and Debs ability to help troubled girls because their son commited suicide. If this is true I have nothing but sadness for them, and anger for the person who would post that information for all too see, and then to infer that it was their fault. There is obviously a lot of anger in ther person who posted that, but being cruel to some one who has experienced a tragedy is crossing the line. We, all of us who went to MMS, wether we had a positive or negative experience know that WE ALONE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS. The staff at MMS might not have always done the correct thing at the correct time, but who does? I am discusted that you could be so cruel and heartless to people who genuinly wanted to help you. The primary staff put in long hours ( do you think they want to be in group all night?) in an emotionally draining job, because they believe in saving girls who exausted their other chances for help. Please if you are the person who posted this, think about how you would feel if your child commited suicide and someone posted that information on a public forum and than insinuated it was your fault. PLEASE TAKE THIS DOWN NOW!!! That is private info and nobody's buisiness.
As far as the staff " making millions of dollars a year" I don't think you understand the amount of money it takes just to keep a schol like MMS running, the insurance, the food, the pay that all of the staff deserve, it is a demanding and difficult job, and they deserve to be paid appropriatly. Many of you don't remember this becuase you came along later, But when they started the school the staff had to live there, because the school was not bringing in enough money to pay themselves appropriate wages. A school like MMS takes a lot of money to run, a large portion of your tuition goes to keeping the school going. Mental health care is very expensive, I don't know if any of you are still in therepy, but I have to pay $150 and hour to see my psychiatrist. When you think about it $100,000 for an entire year is a steal of a deal!!
No matter what our experiences were, I would like to be in contact with all of you, we are all sisters really. If you have sad and difficult memories form MMS I am truly sad for you, as my experience was so wonderful. I found the primary staff, John, Colleen, Mike Deb and Gary to be careing, loving, accepting. I was surprised to see so many negative things said about John, who I see not as abusive or a megalomaniac, but as strong and honest. Very Honest, sometimes the truth can hurt. It seems like some of you are angry with John for telling you the truth about yourself that you did not and still do not want to hear. I know that I can always count on John to tell me exactly what he thinks, but I can also count on him to listen to me and respect me, even if I have a differing opinion. I want to here from all of you so please let me know how you are doing in your like now. I am living in Portland Oregon, if any onf you live nearby lets get together. I can not wait to se what you all have to say about what I have posted. Love to all Katie Harrison ( Wintermute now as I am married)
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Katie,
I'm sure I was there after you, but I'm living in Portland, OR as well! I would love to hear from you and maybe get together for coffee sometime (no shortage of Starbucks here, eh?) [email protected] Thanks for your post.
SH
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KH- I'm glad MMS was helpful for you but I couldn't disagree with you more. naturally, not about your own experience, but about the staff being self-sacrificing for the sake of our well being.
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KATIE WROTE:
I saw on one of the postings that someone questioned Mike and Debs ability to help troubled girls because their son commited suicide. If this is true I have nothing but sadness for them, and anger for the person who would post that information for all too see, and then to infer that it was their fault. There is obviously a lot of anger in ther person who posted that, but being cruel to some one who has experienced a tragedy is crossing the line. We, all of us who went to MMS, wether we had a positive or negative experience know that WE ALONE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS. The staff at MMS might not have always done the correct thing at the correct time, but who does? I am discusted that you could be so cruel and heartless to people who genuinly wanted to help you. Please if you are the person who posted this, think about how you would feel if your child commited suicide and someone posted that information on a public forum and than insinuated it was your fault. PLEASE TAKE THIS DOWN NOW!!! That is private info and nobody's buisiness.
Hey Katie,
I'm afraid I will not be taking the post down regarding Mikes son, despite the emotional repulsion it has caused you. I think that it's a point to consider and I am sorry this upsets you- I too feel very sad for Mike and Deb, however I also know how Mike treated me- disrespectfuly and and in an aggresive and intimidating manner. Given my limited, day to day for 2 years experience with Mike it would not be unreasonable to suppose, considering the type of man I saw Mike to be, to say he may have contributed to the untimely death of their son. It certainly wouldn't be a complete shocker, at least not to me. It is unfortunate, but freely public information. Obviously I don't view Mike as an individual who 'just wanted to help me.' He did far more harm than good- in fact, i can't think of a single positive experience with Mike. While I don't wish him harm and felt very sad when I heard, I think that Mike was a really aggresive person who enjoyed tremendously imposing his own will onto others. I also know the effect this had on me and many others, I can only imagine how traumatic it would have been to have been his daughter. Of course, we all know that no one really knows the reality and we may only speculate in our own minds- I chose to state those speculations aloud. I may be insensitive to the Finn's feelings, but frankly that's of little concern to me b/c my aim
is at a much larger truth. I don't think that truth should be swept under the rug b/c it may hurt someone's feelings, especially when the private is very much related to what should be public. If Mike was a counselor- my counselor at a time I was suicidal- struggled with during and after, the point I am making are regarding his qualifications- his skills and wherewithal- to deal with such a difficult and complex issues such as depression and a desire to end your own existence.
Suppose I am right. Suppose I am wrong. I suppose it doesn't really matter. Whatever side of the fence you're on, you may either agree or disagree- it's fair speculate and certainly does not make me heartless. I can hear the gasp concerning bringing up this delicate topic and then directly placing some responsibility on Mike's shoulders, but yes, I do dare speak what I speculate. I'm sorry this offends you Katie, but not sorry enough not to speak.
kat
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On 2005-06-02 00:51:00, katfish wrote:
"KATIE WROTE:
I saw on one of the postings that someone questioned Mike and Debs ability to help troubled girls because their son commited suicide. If this is true I have nothing but sadness for them, and anger for the person who would post that information for all too see, and then to infer that it was their fault. There is obviously a lot of anger in ther person who posted that, but being cruel to some one who has experienced a tragedy is crossing the line.
Anger? Probably. Cruelty? I don't think so. These people have publicly entered into the business of straightening out troubled teens. Would you take you family to a restaurant if you knew that the proprietor's own family had died of food poisoning? Of course not. Not if you knew.
Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
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I'm still disgusted by what you wrote Kat. Do you blame your parents for everything that has ever happened to you? I sure hope not. And in my opinion, it was heartless. Just my opinion.
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Kat is a caring person who wants the truth known. She's not heatless.
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nope, i certainly do not blame my parents for evertyhing, a great deal, but not everything. They recognize that fact and take on that responsibility too, in fact.
Your opinion, fair enough.
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Knowing some details of this young man's suicide would certainly shed some light on these so-called counselors, and that is not a heartless thing to want to know--- since these people have put themselves out there to be in control of the "therapy of young girls who might themselves be suicidal." Did this boy leave a suicide note? Was he in therapy himself at the time of this most tragic event? Was this boy's sucicide discussed openly, or was it treated as some "deep dark family secret?" These are important issues. Teenagers don't JUST KILL THEMSELVES.
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Kat
I do not believe that your opinion was heartless. I too believe the same. Mike's son was sent to prison, a place where everyone is in a fight to survive. Sadly he decided to end his own life. I think those thoughts have lingered in the most of our minds as well. I struggled with these thoughts painfully at MMS because of the way I was being treated. I wanted to hurt myself at MMS more than I ever had in my life. I always felt misunderstood and issues were being forced on to me. Issues that I do not have. Fortunately I decided to save myself and fake my way through MMS.
Mike and Debb filed a lawsuit against the prison for neglecting their son,( keep in mind that jails are not completely responsible for the emotinal well-being of an inmate). I was in MMS wanting to commit suicide- a place completely responsible to full fil my emotinal needs. MMS neglected me of the proper therapy. Mike and Debb neglected me of the proper therapy (as witnesses and pricipals of the school).It does not make sense in my mind how they can call a jail neglective, but not be able to see that in MMS- a theraputic school? Does someone at mms need to hurt seriously themselves in order for Mission Montain School to have a real reality check?
and How can they be responsible for 30 girls and their emotinal needs if they can not even help their own son? How can I try to care for another child if I can not even care for my own?
The deepest truth is hardest to hear and easiest to reject.
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More important: What credentials does Mike and Deb hold? What are their qualifications for this job? What is their education?
These so-called "schools in the teen help business" continually employee people without teaching, psychological, or counseling degrees.
The MMS website TODAY advertises it is "fully accredited." Who accredits this schoool? Do they employ certified teacheres in each core subject? AND are all core subjects offered to student?
Are parents provided an "educational plan" and a "therapy plan" for each child to assure that their academic and psychological/emotional needs are being met?
What does the "contract" promise? Are all these promises fulfilled?
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Mike and Deb no longer work at the school, no longer live in Montana, and no longer work in the field. They had an extreme tragedy in their lives and aren't affecting the girls at MMS any longer. Lets leave them be... they are humans, their own son took his own life. They got out of the theraputic boarding school situation and I'm sure are just trying to move on and heal. They took care of their son, but there's only so much you can do once your child is an adult and responsible for themselves. No one knows the whole story here, so to blame the parents is sick. A boy committed suicide at my college about a year ago... he was an adult.... his parents were aware of his depression, of his suicidal thoughts. He was even taken out of school for a semester to get back on track. He came back with every intention of living but wasn't strong enough. He took his life in his dorm room and I don't think one person blamed it on his parents. He was living on his own, his parents tried to help but you can only do so much!
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Everyone has compassion for anyone who has a child die from suicide.
The questions still need to be answered:
What credentials does XYZ have who is employed to teach and offer counseling to students at MMS?
Are core classes were and ARE being taught at MMS? WERE and Are the teachers certified?
What agency accredits MMS?
Are parents given an "academic plan" and a "therapy plan" for the students at MMS?
Do the owners keep ALL the promises made in the contract with the parents?
Did the "contractual agreement" include an "corporal punishment?"
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On 2005-06-02 07:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm still disgusted by what you wrote Kat. Do you blame your parents for everything that has ever happened to you? I sure hope not. And in my opinion, it was heartless. Just my opinion."
In my opinion, anyone who couldn't give their own child even the bare minimum care, understanding and help to prevent suicide should not enter into the business of saving other people's children. That's both heartless and brainless!
Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
--Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years, 1950
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Please I agree with one the anonymous users. Lets LEAVE THEM ALONE....
I live a few hours from Mike and DEb and please they are trying to just live day to day. One of my bestfriends from MMS (who lost her parents) is very close with them and so far they are okay.
STOP with M&D they no longer are a part of the school and to an extent of how they were treated when they wanted to leave no longer talk to other founding staff. They don't want to hear about the school or be viewed as MMS....they are just mike and deb.
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Dear Antigen,
YOU are the brainless one here... you made a completely rash and UNINFORMED statement. "Any parent that can't give their child the bare minimum care to prevent them from committing suicide..." I don't know you, but I assume you are young... because you blunder into issues like a bull in quicksand. Do you stop to think ever? Or do you just speak from anger? Funny, your personal feelings allow you to be a harsh judge. Deb and Mike are tough, their kid was probably even tougher, and learned from a young age how to handle dad.. just as we all learn to manipulate our parents. Why is it that EVERYONE blames the counselors and NO one blames their parents for not removing them from such an environment? Plus, is everyone here still so damaged that bashing the school is considered "support"? If you disagree with the school, DO THE RESEARCH, GET IT REGULATED, and BE SUPPORTIVE of one another. Talking a lot of shit does not seem like the path to resolution. I think some of you are not on here for support, you just like to be angry-- maybe you should change the forum "aim" to just "talking shit about MMS and the people involved-- we don't want to DO anything, we just want to TALK about it."
-Not an MMS supporter, just one who can't stand some of the false pretenses you advertise on this site.
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whats funny is antigen isn't young and brainless. she is supposedly an educated adult with a family. funny how someone can be so heartless to another mother and father for their loss when she has a family of her own. i hope that antigen experiences the same compassion she is showing to mike and deb when she has loss occur in her family
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As i recall, we weren't allowed to talk to our parents until we ceased to be 'manipulative' which really just meant we didn't say anything bad about the school. I have issues with my parents regarding some pretty big things but those things at MMS that were extremely negative and cruel were not done to me by my parents and they had no way of knowing what was going on and the impact it was having on me. I would think that if I had met John or Mike warning signs would have flashed in my head given their aggressive natures and for that I wonder just where my mom's head was at. Granted I think my mom can pretty much be counted out, at that time, as being anywhere near balanced and able to decided what was best for me- she hadn't prior to MMS, why would MMS be any different?
Reality is that she had no idea, but she did see me during home visit and after I left and realized something was indeed very wrong. The way I handled things in the outside world, terrified of doing something wrong yet not knowing exactly what was right was the worst thing ever. At best, on could say simply that MMS didn't help at all- but I would be lying, my MMS experience was far from nuetral. I really believe MMS was an extremely poor choice for me and it's scary how easily that can happen.
Several times at MMS I contemplated suicide, at one point actually slitting my wrist (not deep), but then stopped short. I went to MMS voluntarily and really did want help. I also wanted my parents love more deeply than anythign else. I chose to live but was miserable. It was help that I did not receive.
I understand MMS can't be all things to all kids, but for someone like me and the other girls it can be an extremely sad and traumatizing thing, leaving a lasting imprint that taints thier lives. It's to those girls that MMS does a great diservice and, given we had, and girls like us, had/have no way of getting their voices heard (w/out being called maniipulative) is unjust. Given that many of us really wanted help and love we submitted to the berating and the dictatorial way in which 'therapy' was carried out with the underlying fear of hard labor just beneath the surface at all times, but in an atmosphere where you don't feel right, therapy and personal growth is damn impossible. So for you girls that say the 'therapy' worked, I guess I see why it might if you didn't feel the same level of terror and fear that your parents wouldn't love you if you didn't follow along with everything the school said, despite those nagging internal contraditions. Maybe, given those conditions, it would have been that MMS would have been great for us. who knows?
I will forver stand by what I've said about Mike and John, I think both men are awful with kids and should not, under any circumstances, be working with kids. Well, maybe if they got the proper training and credentials to know what the hell they're doing, but even, given my experience, i would be skeptical. Maybe they're better with adults or in an atmosphere outside of MMS, I don't know and that doesn't really matter to me. Well it does, insofar as John Mercer is trying to influence policy through by claiming NATSAP ehtical standards is sufficient(as if self regulation is enough), but that's another issue all together.
Sure, both have John and Mike have good qualities one can speak of and I did- I don't know if I should say this- I did love them or at least so desperately feared them and wanted their apporval that I felt like I loved them, I'm leaning more towards the latter. Either way, for about 2 yrs they were my only guide and, it was like the blind leading the blind, really. Or maybe the blind being yelled at and being led by the blind- lol They determined everything- god knows Gary was such a pushover, as I'm sure any clinical director they hire will be b/c we all know John likes to call the shots and be the man with the plan. John is the god and MMS was created in his own image, metaphorically speaking. He truely has the biggest ego than anyone I have ever has the displeasure of meeting. I thought Mike wasn't as crafty and smart, so he just came across like a jerk in my eyes. Maybe that was only b/c John wouldn't let him determine the plan of action...
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As a credentialed psychotherapist and teacher,this line of attack about John and Deb is really appalling, not because you have no right to air your views, but
because you aren't dealing with current issues. You prefer to bash two broken people who most likely beat themselves up about their son's death far more than any of you kids can imagine.
Why don't you talk about yourselves in the present and support each other on current traumas and triumphs and take your painful memories to a professional who can help you gain understanding, stability and compassion about past wrongs from parents, teachers and others. Or else, be productive and go to your Montana authorities and the press with serious, well-planned attack on an institution you believe needs supervision. Otherwise, this sounds like a bunch of immature whining...........
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I can whine if I want. I can bitch if I want. Just like you feel like you can come and tell us that we need professional help. If you don't like to listen to it, why oh why do you come here? And just in case you havent read, we are planning to do something about it. Thank you very much for the free therapy session. Now that you mention it, I think I will be able to let go of everything now...HAHA.
Clown!
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I would love to go to therapy to deal with all this left over nonsense from my childhood. But i can't afford it. Do you think maybe John would like to pay for it? Its not really that urgent, since I am quite capable of functioning without it. But it still bothers me that I would even have to think about going to therapy to get over the therapeutic boarding school chapter in my life. It bothers me that they really could have helped me but they didn't. Not because they didn't want to, but because I don't think they had a clue how to. Other than to makke me think that I was an addict, and then giving me the 12 step solution. That made me feel like I was getting somewhere, i guess. Especially if I was really an addict. But I am not.
As to the whole mike and deb (not John and Deb) thing, I don't think everyone that has a complaint about MMS thinks that they were responsible for their kid. so please dont generalize like that. I cerntainly feel sad about that. We used to play soccer with those kids. In any case, whatever view people have about it, I don't think they have that view because they have nothing better to do, or because they have problems that they are not dealing with in their life. I think it is plainly an opinion.
Ands about doing something about the school, if you want to be compassionate and understanding and all that, you should sign Kats petition.
Busy, curious, thirsty fly, Drink with me, and drink as I.
-- William Oldys (1696-1761): On a Fly drinking out of a Cup of Ale.
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People that use "witty" sarcastic remarks to cut down the opinion of someone who made a concise and logical point... you just confirmed the "immaturity factor" =) Sarcasm is a tool most poeple use when trapped- or when the subject matter is TRUE and they want to avoid the issue. And THAT, my friends, is something I did learn at MMS, but learned from personal experience and I think most would agree. YOu may think it's so clever to be sarcastic and propose she jump on a plane and come there (which is clearly not what the writer intended to suggest)... but if I had any doubts that the anonymous therapists opinion was at all valid, you just convinced me. Like a bull rushing towards the red cape, you did exactly what is expected of people for who that little summary from "maridell" applies. Why don't you apply a little THOUGHT into your convictions. Your sarcasm is a poor excuse for your insecurity. If I get another response with pointless sarcasm aimed to slash holes in my opinion.... read the above AGAIN.
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On 2005-07-02 08:19:00, [email protected] wrote:
"As a credentialed psychotherapist and teacher,this line of attack about John and Deb is really appalling, not because you have no right to air your views, but because you aren't dealing with current issues. You prefer to bash two broken people who most likely beat themselves up about their son's death far more than any of you kids can imagine.
Why don't you talk about yourselves in the present and support each other on current traumas and triumphs and take your painful memories to a professional who can help you gain understanding, stability and compassion about past wrongs from parents, teachers and others. Or else, be productive and go to your Montana authorities and the press with serious, well-planned attack on an institution you believe needs supervision. Otherwise, this sounds like a bunch of immature whining...........
what do you mean 'not dealing with current issues"? Past often very much plays a role in present behaviors. Just like your present determines your future, your past determines your present. There are plenty threads where girls reunite and talk about present affairs, but role MMS played in our lives very much lends itself to prestent circumstances. Esp. when one considers all the anxiety even admitting MMS was problematic brings up.
Many would prefer to sweep stuff under the rug, even after admitting much should have been done differently. The few that don't feel it's acceptable to slide such things under the rug to leave others to deal with or to leave other girls to needlessly suffer b/c of ignorance are involved in taking action at many levels of the spectrum- doing their part as best they can. This industry is a huge money making machine. I'm sure MT rakes in more in this industry than any other, or most any other.
This will take time- public is virtually unaware and not many politicians have our back. Many organizations are run by those who are inexperienced at running non-profits and, while there are PhD's and plenty of other organizations that do not recommend these programs for many kids
- but wide spread ignorance continues to plague many. In sue time, i suppose. Unfortunately big money and big egos seem to rule at the moment. ahem- john mercer, for instance
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what does understanding past wrongs have to do with righting past wrongs?
I have a hard time believing maridell is credentialed psychotherapist given she is dispensing with such advise that would sound entirely moronic to anyone- esp one with a PhD or exp. working with children. Pushing for MMS alumni to not talk about bad shit that happened at MMS and try and make sense of it, while simultaneuously pushing for bull shit covnersation is the most absurd thing I have ever heard suggested on this post, esp. b/c seems you wish to use a degree title to push some sort sense of legitimacy to what you are saying... Sorry, a moron can have be a pyschotherapist too- I've had a few of them cross my path, present company included.
snore--zzzzzzzz...it's boring. Don't you hate when people talk about shit they know nothing about?
Spare me the BS Mari- and please don't pretend like what you're saying is sensible- you may be go on to get your PhD and still be talking out of your ass hole. I fear, if you are in fact p.t. & teacher, that your students may be under the sway of an individual who presumes to know much, but likely know's very little. Very scary. And worse, can't admit ignorance when clearly that's the case.
BTW, MMS has worked miracles on you, I can hear it in what you say. sweet.
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REPLYING TO BESTY
As a credentialed psychotherapist
YEAH RIGHT
and teacher
SCARY THOUGHT
,this line of attack about John and Deb is really appalling, not because you have no right to air your views, but
because you aren't dealing with current issues.
HOW ON EARTH WOULD YOU KNOW WHO'S DEALING WITH WHAT?
You prefer to bash two broken people
BASH? AWRIGHT, MMS ALUMNUS
who most likely beat themselves up about their son's death far more than any of you kids can imagine.
THE ISSUE IS NOT WHAT THEY DID TO THEIR KIDS, WHO CARES WHAT THEY DID TO THEIR KID? KIDS GONE AND WHAT'S BEEN DONE OR WHAT THEY DID NOT DO WILL HAUNT THEM FOREVER, BUT JUST B/C SOMEONE EXPEREINCES A TRAGEDY DOES NOT ABSOLVE THEM FROM RESPONSIBILITY OF THEIR PAST WRONGS. THE ISSUE IS WHAT THEY DID TO US. AND NOT ONE BUT US WILL BRING THIS TO THE SURFACE. NO ONE BUT US IS RESPONSIBLE (FULLY) TO BRING PAST WRONGS TO LIGHT.
I JUST CAN'T STOP ROLLING MY EYES AT THIS POST.
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::ftard::
here we go again. I think that its best to ignore mardiall- after I say something about it, briefly, of course.
What goes on in this forum is not the only thing that's going on surrounding this topic of MMS harmful side effects. If this were the case, I think I see where one would get the impression we're all a bunch of asshole with nothing going on.
But that's not the case. So, sign the petition in support of END INSTITUTIONALIZED CHILD ABUSE ACT OF 2005
http://www.petitiononline.com/hr1738/petition.html (http://www.petitiononline.com/hr1738/petition.html)
and if you would like to get involved further in putting an end to all this nonsense about schools not needing to be regulated b/c it interferes (essentially) with their profits and could affect their business b/c now some accountability is required, check out
http://www.caica.org/ (http://www.caica.org/)
Things have definitely got to change. Plenty former MMSers are involved in bringing about change. They have been able to pick themselves up from where MMS and additional histories of abuse had left them and begun to empower themselves in various ways that, to me, shows just how brilliantly capable, unique, and wonderful each of these girls are- not to mention altruistic- they could have just as easily written off MMS as just more trauma and let someone else to carry the burden of bringing abou change. Not the case here.
Don't fret, we're not just whining for the sake of hearing ourselves whine. In fact, we're not really whining at all, we're helping induce change in an industry where so few of the people who run these programs, or anyone else for that matter, understand fully the damage being caused to those who don't belong there. It could be argued, and mental health experts have argued, against the effectiveness of ANYONE, not just depressed or otherwise mentally ill kids, being sent off to programs that follow behavior modifications models like the one MMS follows.
We're learning more and more and, given what many girls say and what many other students say from other schools, these types of program are getting away with a lot more than just being tough on kids b/c it teaches them discipline, accoutability, self-reliance, and self-love/respect. I, and more importantly, experts would argue strongly against claims that such methods produce such changes, esp. given the climate of fear and intimidation of such environment.
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Antigen mentioned Maoist thought reform, and I didn't quite understand- now I do...
Excerpts from a series published by the Rocky Mountain News focusing on the World Wide Association for Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS), Teen Help (its marketing affiliate), and associated programs. To read the full story, click here.
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Teen Help's style is not for the faint-hearted. It helps some parents arrange the seizure of disruptive teens, even from their homes in the middle of the night.
Teen Help then ships them to far-off compounds where the message is simple: cooperate or you won't see Mom, Dad and the outside world for a long time.
Once inside the compounds, teens at first encounter a total lack of privacy. Some report being watched 24 hours a day at close range by "buddies." They can't do anything -- including talking or using the bathroom -- without permission.
The aggressive methods have spawned allegations of child abuse, prompting authorities to raid or investigate facilities in Mexico, the Czech Republic, Utah and South Carolina. Facilities in the first three locations closed.
Six former Teen Help students have sued the organization in the last eight months, claiming they were systematically abused inside the compounds.
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Other criticism of the organization came earlier this year from a company executive shortly after he temporarily left its staff.
"These people are basically a bunch of untrained people who work for this organization," Ken Kay told the Denver Rocky Mountain News in an interview before he rejoined Teen Help as a vice president. "So they don't have credentials of any kind. ...
"We could be leading these kids to long-term problems that we don't have a clue about because we're not going about it in the proper way. ...
"How in the hell can you call yourself a behavior modification program -- and that's one of the ways it's marketed -- when nobody has the expertise to determine: Is this good, is this bad?"
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Several psychologists and psychiatrists interviewed by the News expressed skepticism and alarm about Teen Help's methods.
"There's something very creepy about this," Seattle psychiatrist August Piper said. "It's kind of frightening. It sort of smacks of brainwashing, doesn't it?"
Rutgers University psychologist Robert Karlin acknowledged that Teen Help and similar programs can change behavior in a tightly controlled environment. But he warned that some teens could be traumatized psychologically.
"It would take one hell of a lot to think that the only way to bring my kid out of his problems is to take him in for brainwashing," Karlin said.
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For many adolescents, the introduction to Teen Help comes in the middle of the night, when they are forcibly removed from their homes. At their parents' invitation, beefy employees of an "escort company" grab the youths and drive them to temporary processing facilities, including one near company headquarters in La Verkin, Utah.
From there, the 12- to 17-year-olds are transported to rustic compounds with idyllic names such as Paradise Cove, Tranquility Bay and Spring Creek Lodge.
But these teens enjoy no vacation. Minutes after they arrive, they begin the Teen Help behavior modification program.
They are cut off for months from speaking with their parents or anyone else in the outside world. Phone calls and visits generally are allowed only after the first two to four months.
New arrivals begin at "Level 1," the lowest of six on the Teen Help ladder. Level 1 teens get little privacy. "Buddies" -- upper-level youths -- often watch their every move, day or night, asleep or awake.
Buddies also administer "consequences" to teens who don't follow the rules. These penalties range from in-your-face dressing-downs to hours in solitary confinement and, some teens allege, to being hogtied. The company says it uses restraints only as a last resort.
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Stanley Goold, a California teen-ager who lived at Paradise Cove in Western Samoa last year, charges in a lawsuit that he was subjected to "punching, being kicked, thrown and choked, hogtied and put in an isolation box."
A suit by another California teen and one from Nevada described Paradise Cove as "one of many closed and secret cult centers operated by the defendants where adolescents are impounded, tortured, berated, brainwashed and otherwise abused. ... Each plaintiff was subjected to cruel, unusual and abominable sexual abuse by his 'overseers,' the untrained Samoan staff at Paradise Cove." Teen Help has denied the allegations in the suits, which are pending. The organization said the suits are frivolous and the product of unethical lawyers or disputes between divorced parents.
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Government regulation of these programs is spotty. Social service agencies in Louisiana, South Carolina, Utah, Ohio and California have investigated various aspects of the teen behavior modification industry, including the forcible removals of teens from their homes. Some jurisdictions have pressured facilities to obtain state licenses and submit to periodic inspections.
But some programs, including one of Teen Help's, have resisted complying. The former director of Teen Help's South Carolina program, for example, said his facility was a boarding school not subject to state licensing. Church-sponsored programs have cited the constitutional separation of church and state as grounds to avoid licensing.
The private teen behavior modification industry "is just completely unregulated," said Sue Burrell, an attorney with the Youth Law Center, a San Francisco-based nonprofit group specializing in teen custody issues.
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But Kay, who ran Brightway and is now president of the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs, a Teen Help umbrella organization, earlier this year acknowledged the controversy about the qualifications of Teen Help's staff.
"They are not clinicians," he said. "So their job is very important to them because the option a lot of times is a minimum-wage job someplace. And so it's very hard to get them to talk or to talk bad about the program or tell the truth about the program, actually."
Kay said there isn't enough clinical staff to ensure that the program is "headed in the right direction."
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Teen Help in recent years has enjoyed impressive growth. With approximately 1,000 teens in its programs, at a cost of $26,000 to $54,000 each to their parents, Teen Help's revenues are estimated at more than $30 million a year.
Technically, the facilities are owned by a number of individuals and corporations. But all receive clients from Teen Help and connected enterprises. All billing is handled through an affiliate headquartered in St. George, Utah.
Lichfield controls the flow of money to the various compounds, according to Kay.
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In some respects, Teen Help's behavior modification program has roots dating back a half-century.
Rutgers University psychologist Karlin said that Teen Help seminars share some techniques of the thought-reform program that Chairman Mao Tse-tung and his communist theorists pioneered in China in the 1940s. Teens are isolated from their normal environment, made to feel uncomfortable and induced to confess numerous shortcomings -- what Karlin described as the core of Mao's system of thought reform.
Psychologist Margaret Singer, professor emeritus of the University of California at Berkeley and one of the nation's pre-eminent experts on mind control, said Teen Help and similar programs attack the psyche in ways similar to Mao's methods.
It was 1949 when Mao introduced a new kind of thought reform for the newly conquered peoples of Communist China. Unlike the brutal torture techniques that Stalin had developed in the Soviet Union, Chinese methods were more subtle and in many ways more effective.
Western scientists became alarmed when these mind control tools were used on American prisoners in the Korean War of 1950-53. How could the Chinese so easily manipulate captured GIs into criticizing the United States and expressing admiration for the North Korean cause? The techniques, dramatized in The Manchurian Candidate, a Richard Condon novel and subsequent movie, quickly got a pop-psych nickname -- brainwashing.
In the 1960s, the methods began to be used in America. But instead of Communists with a collectivist political bent, the new practitioners were American entrepreneurs who charged thousands of dollars per client.
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No follow-up studies have been done to gauge the long-term effects of Teen Help's intervention. Rutgers' Karlin said he anticipates that Teen Help's techniques will produce post-traumatic stress casualties in "hearts, spades and diamonds."
Tulsa, Okla., psychologist Eric Nelson said re-entering American society after a year or more in a Teen Help camp "would have to be a very unusual situation psychologically."
Nelson treated a Tulsa teen who had spent a few months at Paradise Cove in Samoa.
"One of the points of these programs that remove kids completely from their environments is to provide an environment where there can be almost total control of their behavior," he said. "Some of the kids manage to internalize those values and take the external control and make it internal control.
"My suspicion is that's probably the exception rather than the rule and that when most of these kids get back where there is not that degree of control, they will deteriorate even further."
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http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg2-desperate.shtml)
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"snore--zzzzzzzz...it's boring. Don't you hate when people talk about shit they know nothing about?"
whoever wrote this about maridell--- wish you would listen to the advice you give and TAKE IT YOURSELF. I happen to know the indivdual that wrote that (NOT BETSY--- whoever thought she wrote that... that's a little crazy)... and she happens to be both an amazing person, an amazing therapist, and on top of that has had a lot of familiarity with MMS and it's alumni- she is also NOT a former student-- so that little comment on "MMS worked wonders for you"-- nope.... so before you go trying to be the smarter cookie... just try being smart.
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WOW.....Thank you to the anon who knows a little about me to know I wouldn't write a post like that.
First....Let go of Mike and Deb good lord move on. and if you must have such HATE, ANGER, and DISGUST with MMS at least direct to the people who are still there.
And Meri is right....move on with it. Go to Therapy and deal with whatever it is you need to deal with cause obviously you have alot to deal with. a lot.......
Anyway.................
oh, just double check and make sure you know who and what your talking about before you start a post that only embarasses you
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who is this mystery maribell?
and who cares what she has to say about what you do?
what i think is m doesn't know what shes talking about and if betsie is writing above then she doesnt really know and nor does it matter if she did know and still thinks therapy is the best thing for people she doesnt know the first thign about. both their opinions are speculation based on nothing but words posted on a forum. i still think its realy funny that people even bother to log on to recommend therapy at all. whats the point.
i would guess is either its in defense of the school that the only recourse these individuals feel they have is to say 'go to therapy' or in defense of staff, but has no real meaning anyway once you see the big picture. it just is one of those things that is such a strange thing to do.
instead of trying to defend the school rationaly attacks are sent out in their place. it just seems like they have to not only defend but attempt to offend for some reason for the sake of what?
the goal is to eliminate the discussion, in my view altogether. if 2 people are talking, or 1 is sharing and someone says to you ' go to therapy' or 'you need help' or 'you sound like your immature and whiny' then what's your discounting anything the person say as illegitimate (with no foundation in this case) due to ...mental illness?? who knows what the hell either foundation suposedly is or what the supposition is but seems nonsensical all the way around and annoying. It's just a low blow insult so as not to deal with the conversation at hand and that's just lame.
let people speak and be rational for a second. Also going along with the above, i think thats why its so scary that maribell may be a psychoanalyst. doubtful its the case that that is her profession bc it would be very scary thought
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On 2005-07-02 20:37:00, katfish wrote:
"Antigen mentioned Maoist thought reform, and I didn't quite understand- now I do...
Yeah, I'm really not being expansive or overly dramatic when I say that.
Nelson treated a Tulsa teen who had spent a few months at Paradise Cove in Samoa.
"One of the points of these programs that remove kids completely from their environments is to provide an environment where there can be almost total control of their behavior," he said. "Some of the kids manage to internalize those values and take the external control and make it internal control.
"My suspicion is that's probably the exception rather than the rule and that when most of these kids get back where there is not that degree of control, they will deteriorate even further."
Nelson ought to do further research. I think the people who are able to blow it off come out far and away less damaged than those who can't manage to resist internalizing the control.
There are two kinds of people; those who's lives have been somehow touched by harsh tragedy and those you don't know very well.
-- Ginger Warbis
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On 2005-07-02 23:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WOW.....Thank you to the anon who knows a little about me to know I wouldn't write a post like that.
First....Let go of Mike and Deb good lord move on. and if you must have such HATE, ANGER, and DISGUST with MMS at least direct to the people who are still there.
WHY WOULD WE WANT TO DO THAT? JUST B/C A CORRUPT POLITICIAN FLEES THE COUNTRY AND MAYBE EXPERIENCES SOME REALLY SAD THINGS IN HIS LIFE DOESNT MAKE EVERYTHING OK
And Meri is right....move on with it. Go to Therapy and deal with whatever it is you need to deal with cause obviously you have alot to deal with. a lot.......
I THINK YOU NEED THERAPY. CLEARLY YOU DONT KNOW HOW TO LIVE AND LET LIVE. I THINK YOU HAVE A LOT TO DEAL WITH BC YOU ARE DEFENDING SOMETHING WITH THE IN THE MOST ILLOGICAL WAY POSSIBLE THAT SAYS TO ME YOU 1. NOT BRIGHT 2. NOT BRIGHT 3. BORED 4. IGNORANT
Anyway.................
oh, just double check and make sure you know who and what your talking about before you start a post that only embarasses you "
WHOS EMBARRASED?
On , Anonymous wrote:
whoever wrote this about maridell--- wish you would listen to the advice you give and TAKE IT YOURSELF. I happen to know the indivdual that wrote that (NOT BETSY--- whoever thought she wrote that... that's a little crazy)... and she happens to be both an amazing person, an amazing therapist, and on top of that has had a lot of familiarity with MMS and it's alumni- she is also NOT a former student-- so that little comment on "MMS worked wonders for you"-- nope.... so before you go trying to be the smarter cookie... just try being smart.
I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT BUT IF TRUE IM VERY SCARED
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On 2005-07-02 23:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WOW.....Thank you to the anon who knows a little about me to know I wouldn't write a post like that.
First....Let go of Mike and Deb good lord move on. and if you must have such HATE, ANGER, and DISGUST with MMS at least direct to the people who are still there.
And Meri is right....move on with it. Go to Therapy and deal with whatever it is you need to deal with cause obviously you have alot to deal with. a lot.......
Anyway.................
oh, just double check and make sure you know who and what your talking about before you start a post that only embarasses you "
thou protesth too much
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M- are you a graduate APA?
http://www.apsa.org/pubinfo/about.htm (http://www.apsa.org/pubinfo/about.htm)
Based on what seems to be a far more credible source than Maribell here we have to note that phsychanalysis is an addresing of evolving behaviors that have roots in unconscious/past issues that contribute to the present. Can anyone say MMS anxiety???
By the way, m, are you listed here as a professional?
What is Psychoanalysis?
When people ask what psychoanalysis is, they usually want to know about treatment. As a therapy, psychoanalysis is based on the observation that individuals are often unaware of many of the factors that determine their emotions and behavior. These unconscious factors may create unhappiness, sometimes in the form of recognizable symptoms and at other times as troubling personality traits, difficulties in work or in love relationships, or disturbances in mood and self-esteem. Because these forces are unconscious, the advice of friends and family, the reading of self-help books, or even the most determined efforts of will, often fail to provide relief.
Psychoanalytic treatment demonstrates how these unconscious factors affect current relationships and patterns of behavior, traces them back to their historical origins, shows how they have changed and developed over time, and helps the individual to deal better with the realities of adult life.
Analysis is an intimate partnership, in the course of which the patient becomes aware of the underlying sources of his or her difficulties not simply intellectually, but emotionally - by re-experiencing them with the analyst. Typically, the patient comes four or five times a week, lies on a couch, and attempts to say everything that comes to mind. These conditions create the analytic setting, which permits the emergence of aspects of the mind not accessible to other methods of observation. As the patient speaks, hints of the unconscious sources of current difficulties gradually begin to appear - in certain repetitive patterns of behavior, in the subjects which the patient finds hard to talk about, in the ways the patient relates to the analyst.
The analyst helps elucidate these for the patient, who refines, corrects, rejects, and adds further thoughts and feelings. During the years that an analysis takes place, the patient wrestles with these insights, going over them again and again with the analyst and experiencing them in daily life, in fantasies, and in dreams. Patient and analyst join in efforts not only to modify crippling life patterns and remove incapacitating symptoms, but also to expand the freedom to work and to love. Eventually the patient's life - his or her behavior, relationships, sense of self - changes in deep and abiding ways.
Child and Adolescent Psychoanalysis
Child and adolescent psychoanalysis, both offshoots of adult psychoanalysis, share with it a common theoretical framework for understanding psychological life, while also using additional techniques and measures to deal with the special capacities and vulnerabilities of children. For instance, the young patient is helped to reveal his or her inner feelings and worries not only through words, but also through drawings and fantasy play. In the treatment of all but late adolescents, parents are usually consulted to round out the picture of the child's life. The goal of child and adolescent analysis is the removal of symptoms and of the psychological roadblocks that interfere with normal development.
Is Psychoanalysis only a Therapy?
Although psychoanalysis began as a tool for ameliorating emotional suffering, it is not only a therapy. It is, in addition, a method for learning about the mind, and also a theory, a way of understanding the processes of normal everyday mental functioning and the stages of normal development from infancy to old age. Furthermore, since psychoanalysis seeks to explain how the human mind works, it contributes insight into whatever the human mind produces. In so doing, it has had a profound influence on many aspects of twentieth-century culture.
As a general theory of individual human behavior and experience, psychoanalytic ideas enrich and are enriched by the study of the biological and social sciences, group behavior, history, philosophy, art, and literature. As a developmental theory, psychoanalysis contributes to child psychology, education, law, and family studies. Through its examination of the complex relationship between body and mind, psychoanalysis also furthers our understanding of the role of emotions in health as well as in medical illness.
In addition, psychoanalytic knowledge is the basis of all other dynamic approaches to therapy. Whatever the modifications, the insights of psychoanalysis form the underpinnings of much of the psychotherapy employed in general psychiatric practice, in child psychiatry, and in most other individual, family, and group therapies.
The Psychoanalytic Tradition
Sigmund Freud was the first psychoanalyst. Many of his insights into the human mind, which seemed so revolutionary at the turn of the century, are now widely accepted by most schools of psychological thought. Although others before and during his time had begun to recognize the role of unconscious mental activity, Freud was the preeminent pioneer in understanding its importance. Through his extensive work with patients and through his theory building, he showed that factors which influence thought and action exist outside of awareness, that unconscious conflict plays a part in determining both normal and abnormal behavior, and that the past shapes the present. Although his ideas met with antagonism and resistance, Freud believed deeply in the value of his discoveries and rarely simplified or exaggerated them for the sake of popular acceptance. He saw that those who sought to change themselves or others must face realistic difficulties. But he also showed us that, while the dark and blind forces in human nature sometimes seem overwhelming, psychological understanding, by enlarging the realm of reason and responsibility, can make a substantial difference to troubled individuals and even to civilization as a whole.
Building on such ideas and ideals, psychoanalysis has continued to grow and develop as a general theory of human mental functioning, while always maintaining a profound respect for the uniqueness of each individual life. Ferment, change, and new ideas have enriched the field, and psychoanalytic practice has adapted and expanded. But psychoanalysts today still appreciate the persistent power of the irrational in shaping or limiting human lives, and they therefore remain skeptical of the quick cure, the deceptively easy answer, the trendy or sensationalistic. Like Freud, they believe that psychoanalysis is the strongest and most sophisticated tool for obtaining further knowledge of the mind, and that by using this knowledge for greater self-awareness, patients free themselves from incapacitating suffering, and improve and deepen human relationships.
Who Can Benefit from Psychoanalysis?
Because analysis is a highly individualized treatment, people who wish to know if they would benefit from it should seek consultation with an experienced psychoanalyst. Still, some generalizations can be made. The person best able to undergo psychoanalysis is someone who, no matter how incapacitated at the time, is basically, or potentially, a sturdy individual. This person may have already achieved important satisfactions - with friends, in marriage, in work, or through special interests and hobbies - but is nonetheless significantly impaired by long-standing symptoms: depression or anxiety, sexual incapacities, or physical symptoms without any demonstrable underlying physical cause. One person may be plagued by private rituals or compulsions or repetitive thoughts of which no one else is aware. Another may live a constricted life of isolation and loneliness, incapable of feeling close to anyone. A victim of childhood sexual abuse might suffer from an inability to trust others. Some people come to analysis because of repeated failures in work or in love, brought about not by chance but by self- destructive patterns of behavior. Others need analysis because the way they are - their character - substantially limits their choices and their pleasures. And still others seek analysis definitively to resolve psychological problems that were only temporarily or partially resolved by other approaches.
Whatever the problem - and each is different - that a person brings to the analyst, it can be properly understood only within the context of that person's strengths and life situation. Hence, the need for a thorough evaluation to determine who will benefit - and who will not - from psychoanalysis.
Who is a Psychoanalyst?
The designation "psychoanalyst" is not protected by federal or state law: anyone, even an untrained person, may use the title. It is therefore important to know the practitioner's credentials before beginning treatment.
Graduate psychoanalysts trained under the auspices of the American Psychoanalytic Association have had very rigorous and extensive clinical education. Candidates accepted for training at an accredited psychoanalytic institute must meet high ethical, psychological, and professional standards. These candidates are either physicians who have completed a four-year residency program in psychiatry, psychologists or social workers who have completed a doctoral program in their fields or hold a clinical masters degree in a mental health field where such a degree is generally recognized as the highest clinical degree; all must have had extensive clinical experience. Outstandingly qualified scholar-researchers, educators, and selected other professionals may also be approved for psychoanalytic training. All accepted candidates, whatever their background, then begin at least four years of psychoanalytic training..
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The designation "psychoanalyst" is not protected by federal or state law: ANYONE, even an untrained person, may use the title. It is therefore important to know the practitioner's credentials before beginning treatment.
Graduate psychoanalysts trained under the auspices of the American Psychoanalytic Association have had very rigorous and extensive clinical education. Candidates accepted for training at an accredited psychoanalytic institute must meet high ethical, psychological, and professional standards.
M, are you part of APA???
Along the same lines about what the aim is to lend legitimacy/authority to something- there is that famous study done at Stanford where test subjects were asked to electricute a person whenever he answsered questions worng that teh scienctiis asked. B/c the scientist was the 'voice of reason' and was a 'credentialed' individual, all notions of right and wrong went out the window. 50 % of the test subject electrocuted the person answering the questions (despite -fake- screams and please to stop) to death or either near death.
I thought this was interested b/c people often through about titles as if they mean something, and sometimes they do, but not at the exclusion of all else that is sensible.
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Love all your replies--I never said I was a psychoanalist, but a licensed psychotherapist in CA. As a MFT, I dealt with families and kids dealing with depression, addiction ( including drugs, sex alcohol and eating disorders) and had a 40 patient per week caseload for 10 years. I was affifiliated with local hospital and was re4ferred to by local psychiatrists, medical doctors and programs like yours. I am almost 60 and have been around the block more times than you can imagine. Now, get off your very high horses and listen again to my message: abuses do occur in EVERY setting and if you are still angry, do something about it. If you are a victim, don't live your life as one, go to a professional and get help. If you are not a victim but a justice dog' be productive and organize a REAL crusade for change and supervision. If you are neither, shame on you for your adolescent rantings..and for the sake of the real victims, do not inflame their lives but offer real love,support and encouragement to get the help they need. And for everyone's sake, despite our right to free speech, enough said about two more victims who lost a child from suicide---probably caused by endogenous depression and nothing to do with parenting. This tragedy will someday happen to you or someone you love or know, and with maturity,appropriate compassion CAN be developed. This is my last reply...I'm too old for this hatred............
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thou protesth to much to what???
stop being so personal with everything...take it for what it is.
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Gee-- why on earth don't more people feel supportive of the people on this website? Kat, you do a pretty good job of staying calm and rational in your replies. Many of you "anonymous" people, I'm not sure why you don't say who you are. I probably don't know most of you, and don't want to. For the record, this is Tamara and I know Maridell well... it is extremely difficult for me right now to not just lose my temper and sink to levels many of you already have with insults and degradation. I love how there is SOOOOO much anger on this website that no one can believe for one moment simple facts: like Maridell IS a therapist (retired now, but a fabulous and rational one- not to mention she has lived a life equally as challenging as ALL of yours... you little fledglings-- myself included), and also that many of you have so much anger and defensiveness, I am not sure how you plan on making a difference anywhere unless you are able to calm down and pull your head out of your *** long enough to communicate effectively with each other, authorities over boarding-school regulation, etc.... Follow Kat's example- she obviously has enough sense to make clear points, focus on her goal and take the actions to accomplish them. Anyway, this place is definitely not a place to get healthy and get help, even if that was its intended purpose. There isn't an encouraging word anywhere on this site that isn't followed by a belligerent and nasty remark by someone, usually ANONYMOUS. I keep checking the site, but it's rasing my blood pressure and not because it makes me want to change something, it just makes me want to shoot some of you-- and I don't think that's a good sign... I have had the opportunity to talk with some alumni now that I lost touch with, and we are able to find support in each other for our bad experiences without becoming steaming rageful, which is what I see HERE. I hope you succeed in making sure kids get treated right in schools, healing from your own traumas and learn some manners while your at it. Judging from your responses, I imagine I am not the only one who feels pretty furious at many of you when I read all the angry "throwing of insults"- Instead of wanting to support your efforts` I find that I can't stand the way these mind games make me feel... Kat, I wish you could start a new topic or something where people are really sincere in being there for one another, because this shit is pitting me against people I don't even know. It's exhausting just READING the retarded elementary name calling and insults. Anyhow, if you ever get something like that going, contact me. Otherwise, I think I will just go back to interacting with people who contribute to my life and leave you all to dwell in this nastiness. I am sure those of you who I refer to will have a ball ripping this letter apart and rolling your eyes and discrediting everything I say... have at it. I think this place brings out the worst in us, underneath it all some of you might actually be really cool and kind, and so am I-- so I am leaving to find poeple who really WANT to be supportive.
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I think part of the probelm, again, is people coming in here and making all of these assumptions about MMS alumni that had issues with the program and those alumni getting very angry about that and lashing out in ways that may come across as irrational but let us not forget that beneath that there are still valid emotions and perhaps even the lashing out is indivcative of effect MMS has had- it's hard to take things lightly when you're entire traumatic expereinces are being dismissed b/c (as it comes across to me) it may hurt a couselor whose had a tragedy occur in his life.
Like sunshine has written and others, we shouldn't have to go to therapy b/c a school that was supposed to be therapuetic was not. It's absurd to not even address that point when suggesting we should all let mike and deb be.
the point of discussing mike and deb is b/c for many of us they played a pretty big part in our lives during our developmental years and the tragedy that occured in their lives does not change that fact.
Since when does venting and anger become a bad thing? Maybe b/c people feel baited into having to justify their feelings by alumni or by random therapsists like maribell who feel like they must point out that somehow, in putting our thoughts and feelings on a public forum about harmful effects of MMS constitutes whining (m said sounds, but I take that to mean she believes it to be so) b/c someone may not take action... or in saying that the anger that results against this type of baiting is somehow indicative of needing therapy seems completely absurd.
No on here is qualified to make such a suggestion, therapist or otherwise. And I think feeds into the same things propugated by MMS and anyone else that wants to keep your intolocuter quiet (like someone said above)- just tell them they need therapy, implication being they are not of sound mind and imbalanced, meaning what they have to say is somehow not accurate or valid b/c it has not been run thourgh the therapuetic ringer. I don't see how on earth that makes sense at all.
And M, I wonder, what on earth are you doing here anyway? Presumably you're friends with an alumnus? I think it strange you would espouse your opinions prior to presenting even a direct line of questioning that would give you more to work with that a simple thread on a forum can...I find it insulting and entirely unprofessional that you would have the audacity to call anyone here whiny and immature given you know little about what anyone is doing. I have grave concerns about your 1. level of commitment to professional conduct 2. ethical code. I can't imagine a single respectable therapist would come on here (just really in itself) and use their credentials (whatever those acutally mean) as leverage and speak about a topic so ignorantly.
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Girls, there is something you must remember. This is a public forum and there are, well, some pretty strange people who visit. And of coures, I'm sure I'll get attacked for that comment but face it, it's true.
Just because the thread is MMS, many other than MMS come and throw out their advice and nasty comments. I've seen it everywhere on this forum. So some of the anonymous comments may be coming from people who are not even associated with MMS, or worse, who might even work for MMS.
This is not a place to get healthy, for sure. It's a good place to get one another's email addresses and contact information and then I suggest you reunite outside of here. This is an absolute waste of time.
I only come here when I'm looking for information, otherwise it's too much of a brain drain.
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?Like sunshine has written and others, we shouldn't have to go to therapy b/c a school that was supposed to be therapuetic was not. It's absurd to not even address that point when suggesting we should all let mike and deb be.?
You should address this point, but if addressing the point for 10 years hasn?t given you any peace of mind (this based on the assumption that you HAVE been doing some work to overcome your trauma)?then maybe THIS therapy isn?t doing much either. Secondly, aside from a lawsuit that will give you some peace of mind, asking questions directed at Mike and Deb is pointless, because they will NEVER respond. You are wasting your time with questions (at least directed at them), I am sure there are other sources where you may be able to answer if he is a licensed therapist, ie the organization that provides licensing, have you tried this? Just curious, will you really feel better if you have the answers to questions that do not take away your traumatic experience? That is a genuine question, not sarcasm.
?Since when does venting and anger become a bad thing?
When it consumes your life for 10 years.
??just tell them they need therapy, implication being they are not of sound mind and imbalanced, meaning what they have to say is somehow not accurate or valid?. I don't see how on earth that makes sense at all.?
It doesn?t make sense, because no one said that, and you use this logic a lot to brush off peoples?comments. If you read carefully, both m and others have said many times that your experiences ARE valid, the thing is?if you want to have a life not continually affected by MMS, you probably do need some additional therapy.. isn?t that why you are here? Support is a form of therapy, often the best kind. You may see that comment about needing additional therapy as an insult, but I use the term loosely and not insultingly? therapy can be in many different forms outside of a therapist with a PhD, I am sure you have experienced things that empower you and help you overcome other issues.
?And M, I wonder, what on earth are you doing here anyway? I think it strange you would espouse your opinions prior to presenting even a direct line of questioning that would give you more to work with that a simple thread on a forum can...I find it insulting and entirely unprofessional that you would have the audacity to call anyone here whiny and immature given you know little about what anyone is doing. I have grave concerns about your 1. level of commitment to professional conduct 2. ethical code. I can't imagine a single respectable therapist would come on here (just really in itself) and use their credentials (whatever those acutally mean) as leverage and spheak about a topic so ignorantly.?
My goodness, you like to make a lot of assumptions. 1. it?s not leverage to state your credentials, it?s information provided so that girls like you don?t get confused about whether the person writing is a faking alumni or an educated adult. And PS_- credentials mean that the person has had a LOT of experience with kids just like you?it takes something like 5000 hours of therapy to acquire the license she has?. Not to mention a lifetime of experiences that would make yours look like walks in the park. (once again, not invalidating, just putting things into perspective) 2. Ethical code? Are you kidding me? Ignorance? Your logic is very strange. Explain violating ethical code by voicing an opinion on a matter that has deeply affected people she loves and cares for. Also?you are one to speak of ignorance. You know nothing about m, she knows nothing about you, but anyone with a brain can read what you are doing by browsing your public forum. It?s PUBLIC. M knew me all through my experience at MMS, and actually she totally disagreed with Mike?s therapy too. She has close relationships with several alumni, all of whom have had some bad experiences there. So she is not unaware or disagreeing that there were major issues. But the issues you have NOW and the way you choose to handle them are so blatant that any person (not even a therapist) could read and make a few comments on your current state of mind. You want to have a voice, but you don?t want anyone else to have one. There are a million ways to create privacy in a forum if you don?t want to let anyone else speak differing opinions from yours.
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I find Maribell and others tone to be counter-productive as well as unnecessary. For instance, to say things like:" whining " and immature" is both inappropriate--given our tone --and utterly unhelpful. As P.M.S Hacker once correctly pointed out, "burning straw men often creates more heat than light."
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2.Secondly, aside from a lawsuit that will give you some peace of mind, asking questions directed at Mike and Deb is pointless, because they will NEVER respond.
Speaking for myself I don't expect a response to any q I and others have posted. It's less of a matter of getting a response and more of a matter of getting them out of my head- though I have a mild curiousity to hear their opinions. Course that wouldn't change anything, but to understand and identify what needs to be understood is an important step in the process of identifying the problem. I think of it more of humourous way of going about it- that is, asking them q. on public forum for people to add as they wish given it was something not allowed during our stay. I will say I received a certain amount of satisfaction adding my own question.
3.You are wasting your time with questions (at least directed at them), I am sure there are other sources where you may be able to answer if he is a licensed therapist, ie the organization that provides licensing, have you tried this? Just curious, will you really feel better if you have the answers to questions that do not take away your traumatic experience? That is a genuine question, not sarcasm.
The answers to everyones questions would be important given research I'm doing to how what really went on and was allowed to go on and what needs to change to prevent it from happening again. It puts it out there as a ? at least, publicly. It doesn't really matter to me what they have to say, though from a psychological standpoint I would like to understand how on earth one justifies MMS coercive tactics and calls it therapy. But I don't expect a reply. Besides, I think I have my answer at least, in part. Sadism.
?Since when does venting and anger become a bad thing?
4.When it consumes your life for 10 years.
-touche. LOL Interestingly i have only become consumed by this most recently... then again I'm often heavily consumed by any issue I wish to tackle. I think it also depends on what is meant by consumes and what exaclty you think is being consumed. I think that an act may have a seemingly negative focus from an outsiders perspective but may in fact be a postive thing and have positive impact/effects- an outsider never knows. This is esp when you base that opinion- negative consumption (i assume you mean) of 10 yrs- exclusively on what is going on on this forum. Some girls are only now revistiting this issue, after 10 years of letting bygones be....
5. It doesn?t make sense, because no one said that, and you use this logic a lot to brush off peoples?comments. If you read carefully, both m and others have said many times that your experiences ARE valid, the thing is?if you want to have a life not continually affected by MMS, you probably do need some additional therapy...
isn?t that why you are here?
But my point is that there are still assumptions being made that may or may not basis in reality, and one can't tell me that their basis for judging the reality of the situation is what's on this forum. Personally, I think that anyone's therapuetic reccommendations should be reserved for people they know- no one can make a valid recommendation unless they know who they are recommending it to and it's rather presumptuous to do so, wouldn't you say?
Oh, and as to why I'm here- no, I'm not here for therapy or to vent- well, maybe sometimes, but more than anything else I just want to have furture girls to be able to look back at what I've written and get from that a feeling it's ok to admit that MMS was a negative experience and that they are not 'crazy' for thinking that. One of the biggest hurdles I think for girls is to feel they are not bad or crazy and somehow being assholes for being critical of the school. That's my therapy, I suppose. If one takes therapy to mean, to an extent, triumphing over bad expereince. Perhaps that may explain my quickness to brush of threrapuetic suggestions- only if a small part. The other part is b/c I find it annoying that anyone can be so brazen to assume so much based on so little and that they are in any position to do so.
Support is a form of therapy, often the best kind. You may see that comment about needing additional therapy as an insult, but I use the term loosely and not insultingly? therapy can be in many different forms outside of a therapist with a PhD, I am sure you have experienced things that empower you and help you overcome other issues.
I see the comment about therapy as a way to get people to feel uncomfortable about voicing opinion on MMS but really only b/c the immature whining part- didn't seem to me that could be interpreted any other way, but I'm human and, as one of them could be wrong...
7 .My goodness, you like to make a lot of assumptions. 1. it?s not leverage to state your credentials, it?s information provided so that girls like you don?t get confused about whether the person writing is a faking alumni or an educated adult. And PS_- credentials mean that the person has had a LOT of experience with kids just like you?it takes something like 5000 hours of therapy to acquire the license she has?. Not to mention a lifetime of experiences that would make yours look like walks in the park. (once again, not invalidating, just putting things into perspective)
The way M wrote it came across as an attempt to use her position to make her opinion somehow more vaild than they would otherwise be. She write- 'as a xyz i'm appalled....' First thing she writes implies that writing about Mike is wrong b/c he's going through a hard time. Hmmmm....not sure why it would matter she's a therapist and why that would need to be announced if not leverage esp given her aim is to express an opinion and be persuasive in doing so and that the opinion itself is really is kind of suspect. She says, 'you prefer to bash'? and makes suggestion about what should be done alt., therapy and legistlative activism essentially b/c we sound like immature girls who are whining.-- Frankly, I can't see a single statement here that would indicate any degree of commitment to professionalism give- assumptions and redirecting up the wazoo is what I hear. 1. I have never heard an adult use the word bashing (except at MMS) what does that mean? Slight of the hand and suddenly we're mean alumni 2.Assumes girls are ready for action 3.Assumes there's no inherent value in discussion 4. Makes it seem as if further discussion is immature and whiney. I doubt that any professional would come one here and make a blanket statement like that, as has been mentioend i highly doubt this person is a real person and if they are I wonder about them...
It is leverage to use credentials if aim is to alter behavior by listing qualifications as if that makes the paticular opinion somehow more valid than others and is used to state that it is best to become activist and stop 'immature whining' . Some girls may not be in the position to emotionally handle going against the school at any level except through annonymous chatter- MMS did some serious damage to girls on that front. And, given I know this to be true from girls i have spoken with and, maybe M does not, that's the basis for my frustration and for stating that she speaks from ignorance. I also think of the damage, even if miniscule, that saying such things may cause and lending credibility to such a statement may do- that working things out through talking on forum underestimates the power of dialogue and working things out for yourself and assumes girls have the power to do that on a personal level with no peer support.
2. Ethical code? Are you kidding me? Ignorance? Your logic is very strange. Explain violating ethical code by voicing an opinion on a matter that has deeply affected people she loves and cares for.
Ignorance b/c she assumes that girls can take action when frequently there has been great opposition, and not just from the oustide, but from the mind when you consider MMS trained us not to speak against them- and essentially name calling. Unethical b/c, while she may know you and others, she does not know me or the girls she is adressing and to call use words like immature and whining, as a professional, I would think violates any kind of ehtical code established by whatever professional association she may belong to. To me it would be like saying to a patient
(a new patient at that) 'you need to do xyz b/c what your doing now sounds like immature whining' Can you imagine?? LOL That would be grounds to call a meeting with the ethics committee of any reputable psychological/psychotherapuetic or otherwise association.
Esp. given M does not know these girls past nor understands their present. I think it's quite irresponsible to presume to know so much just by any random person, but for a professional to so kind of suprises me.
And certainly her point could have been made clearer & w/o the insults. Not to mention, sounds very much like scolding, given she's 'appalled' and that she's suggesting it is best to not speak of Mike b/c the poor guys suffered.
Also?you are one to speak of ignorance. You know nothing about m, she knows nothing about you, but anyone with a brain can read what you are doing by browsing your public forum. It?s PUBLIC.
ok
M knew me all through my experience at MMS, and actually she totally disagreed with Mike?s therapy too.
What therapits wouldn't? I mean that seriously, if you know any that would I'd like to know b/c I have tons of questions. That doesn't make her any less irresponsible.
She has close relationships with several alumni, all of whom have had some bad experiences there. So she is not unaware or disagreeing that there were major issues. But the issues you have NOW and the way you choose to handle them are so blatant that any person (not even a therapist) could read and make a few comments on your current state of mind.
Who's making assumptions now- this is getting to be tit-for-tat? A forum is nothing more than a series of snapshots of opinions on various topics that may or may not be in their stage of development and open to great deal of interepretation- but that's all it is. You may feel you are comfortable naming whatever issue I have now, but that's just about the silliest thing i've ever hear. you would, in your attempt- as M seems to, lack visible clarity that comes from seeing the big picute and would be entirely speculative - I highly doubt that you your comments would accurately portary any issue I have now- but certainly you can talk about what i've said. You assume what I have said, however, would be an accurate basis from which to state my issues NOW and somehow reflects who I am and so on such a level that would give you a place to insert your opinion on my issues. Forget about whether or not you're qualified, but who on earth are you to list my issues esp. if we have never met and you are no more than a stranger making interpretations on an extremely limited info of words on a forum. I mean, you can read my palm if you'd like, I guess, but what the hell for? And what difference does it make? And why am I even commenting on this? A great deal goes on oustide of this realm, not much covered here.
Beyond the fact that the issue here is not how I deal with my life, past, present or otherwise and that the issue here, this thread in this forum, is about MMS- the point is I could just as easily recommend therapy for just about anyone that crosses my path- but I don't and the reason here is critical to understanding what I'm saying. I don't say, you as a stranger need therapy b/c I don't know really know you and to suggest therapy would be way out of line. A line of etiqutte perhaps MMS did not teach us...I don't even know you nor you me nor m - and reading some threads written on a forum- despite if it may feel as if you do- you don't know me. Therapy is a very personal choice- esp. given most people would have to struggle a great deal to even afford the cost, it's a suggestion that friends and loved ones make to each other Not complete strangers to one another. And yet, I hear it all to often sugested and thrown around w/ no grounds or basis, execpt some excerpts on a forum, to do so. So when I say ignorance, I do in fact mean ignorace.
You want to have a voice, but you don?t want anyone else to have one. There are a million ways to create privacy in a forum if you don?t want to let anyone else speak differing opinions from yours.
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There exists a private forum for alumni, but publicly i don't have any problem w/ people who have a differing opinion- but insults are different and so is discounting what is being said and not conceding to the problems of MMS. But no one should have to agree and that's what discussion is for. And, in reality, if I truely didn't want anyone else to speak up and be able to reply and have a dialogue with to make my point, I wouldn't be here. I encourage more people to speak up.
I wrote this earlier---
I don't mind other people speaking out, I simply have grave concrens that other girls who have left the program and had bad experiences may look at this forum and feel like they may not be able to express their feelings b/c of people who through around terms like 'MMS bashing' and 'you are the one with the problem' and suggesting that THEY seek help to recover from a school that was supposed to provide them with such treatment. I may jump the gun, but, if you look back you may be able to see how frequently that has been a problem
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I SENT MY DAUGHTER TO MISSION MOUNTAIN SCHOOL 9YRS AGO. SHE LEFT HOME DURING A HOME VISIT BECAUSE OF THE PURE FEAR SHE HAD OF MIKE. NOT TO MENTION THE FEAR SHE HAD FOR JOHN. YES, SHE TRIED TO DO THINGS TO GET EXPELLED, BUT WE WERE NOT ALWAYS PRIVY TO IT. BEFORE SENDING HER AWAY MY HUSBAND AND I SPOKE TO JOHN IN PERSON ABOUT THE SCHOOL AND ASKED MANY QUESTIONS. WE LEFT FEELING SADDENED BY THE FACT THAT OUR DAUGHTER WOULD NOT BE LIVING WITH US. WE COULD NOT HELP HER TO HELP HERSELF. I FELT THAT TIME AWAY FROM HER FORMER FRIENDS WAS A MUST. WE DID NOT AND HAVE NOT EVER GIVEN UP ON HER. I SPOKE TO DEB ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS ABOUT MY CONCERN OF THE HTE HARSH TREATMENT I HAD SEEN AT THE SCHOOL. I WAS ALWAYS CONCERNED ABOUT THE TWO OF THEM WORKING TOGETHER WITH THE GIRLS. I EVEN TOLD HER I DID NOT WANT TO CAUSE ANY TROUBLE FOR THE TWO OF THEM IN THEIR RELATIONSHIP OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOL. THAT WAS WHY I NEVER WENT INTO MUCH DISCUSSION OF HOW I FELT ABOUT MIKE'S ABUSE BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS MY DAUGHTER OR SOME OF THE OTHER GIRLS. I DO FEEL GREAT PAIN AND SYMPATHY FOR THE LOSS OF THEIR SON. MY DAUGHTER LIKED THEIR KIDS AND ENJOYED PLAYING SO
CCER WITH THEM. AS A PARENT, WE TRY TO DO OUR VERY BEST FOR OUR CHILDREN. SOMETIMES THEY NEED A ANOTHER APPROACH THAT WE CAN NOT DELIVER OURSELVES. PLEASE DO NOT BASH THEM OVER THE WAY THEIR SON DIED. THEY WILL ALWAYS LIVE WITH PAIN AND EMPTINESS KNOWING THAT THEY DID NOT SUCCEED IN HELPING HIM. UNTIL YOU EXPERIENCE THE PAIN OF BEING ABLE TO HELP OTHERS BUT NOT THOSE CLOSEST TO YOU, YOU CAN NOT UNDERSTAND THEIR PAIN. MIKE AND DEB, IF YOU READ THIS YOU MAY CONTACT ME. PAM
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what do people mean by bashing? perhaps there's a miscommunication because what i see is alumni who have had previous experience with Mike expressing the fact that they are not suprised that, given the way mike treated them when they were depressed, that their own son could not be offered the help he needed by Mike nor by Deb. Sad but bashing? i dont see it.
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Kat--- After reading your response to my long analysis of YOUR letter above, I have concluded that you are obviuosly far too sophisticated in the art of circular logic to argue with. You come to the same conclusions no matter what the discussion consists of. I give up!!! Either you can't read, or you just forget what you read once you start writing... because half of what you wrote is just a tangent and does not address my points at all. And you crack me up when you continually use your "logic" to conclude that no therapist would "violate ethical codes etcc....". M is now retired, does not have to follow some code that you speak of, particularly because you are not her patient, not to mention that part of the problem with therapy in the 21st century is CENSORSHIP! YOu use the very thing you clearly detest to shut HER down... a judgement on her rights because of her credentials that you are improperly educated to make. You would love to be able to reduce her and others who do not agree with you into labels that invalidate what they have to say. You defend yourself by manipulating the words and giving them meaning of your own creation. Clearly talking with you is a little game-- and you are a master of trickery. So I give in. Your logic may be flawed, but you run circles like a champ. Keep up the good work. Peace.
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Kat is consistant because she knows what she is talking about. She has been there and done that, it has taken a toll on her and many others. Of course she is opinionated, so am I, because we have seen the effects of these programs on real living people! Even the best of the "therapuetic programs" are not therapuetic at all, they are simply brainwashing institutions. I would defy any of these programs to be approved by a "real" mental health professional, rather than those who are on the payroll, one way or the other.
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On 2005-07-05 17:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Kat--- After reading your response to my long analysis of YOUR letter above, I have concluded that you are obviuosly far too sophisticated in the art of circular logic to argue with. You come to the same conclusions no matter what the discussion consists of. I give up!!! Either you can't read, or you just forget what you read once you start writing... because half of what you wrote is just a tangent and does not address my points at all. And you crack me up when you continually use your "logic" to conclude that no therapist would "violate ethical codes etcc....". M is now retired, does not have to follow some code that you speak of, particularly because you are not her patient, not to mention that part of the problem with therapy in the 21st century is CENSORSHIP! YOu use the very thing you clearly detest to shut HER down... a judgement on her rights because of her credentials that you are improperly educated to make. You would love to be able to reduce her and others who do not agree with you into labels that invalidate what they have to say. You defend yourself by manipulating the words and giving them meaning of your own creation. Clearly talking with you is a little game-- and you are a master of trickery. So I give in. Your logic may be flawed, but you run circles like a champ. Keep up the good work. Peace."
yes, all those laps have me exhausted. no seriously, why don't u simply point out where I'm flawed in what I say, I'm not closed to hearing what others have to say- just like i have said before, I stand against insults. i'm not sure what i'm creating, but apparently u do, so please tell me so that i can learn. you say i seem to have missed your points, so maybe I'm confused- please explain. I thought I covered them as best I could- perhaps I am wrong. It certainly wouldn't be the first time! talking is not a game to me, it's about learning and making a point that makes sense. if i don't make sense i sure would like to know what it is that doesn't make sense so i may revise. trickery is not my intent at all- it goes against everything i stand for. i'm sorry u feel that's what i'm all about.
Regarding m's ethics and the fact that b/c she's retired she shouldn't have to act responsibly/ethically, i don't know why that would be the case- I'm not sure how that consists of me 'labeling' and how that would in any way feel like censorship, I am merely a commentator among many. I don't see how I 'judged her rights' i would say her rights are equal to mine- we all have a right to speak, but i would think that as a therapist one would exhibit a certain level of professionalism that i did not see in her comments, and that's all. i may be wrong, but have yet to see any reason to think as such. if that makes what i say to sound like sham upon all then so be it, but i'm not clear on why that would be the case.
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Those people who keep on telling those girls who had a rough time at mms to basically shut their trap need to back off. You are trully making yourselves sound like you are superior. It sounds like you think that those girls who have these troubles sit home all day and think about MMS. Its quite nothing like that. But when they go to an interview for a job and have this severe lack of confidence they think to themselves and wonder ...Why the hell am I scared? They think to tthemselves and see one sommon factor MISSION MOUNTAIN SCHOOL!
AND and when they act confused in society they don't know how to fit in any more...That is part of their issues with this school. If you come in here and tell someone how to feel you are VERY WRONG.
(and who ever maribell is or whatever you name is) In being a phsychologist there is one important thing you must attain COMPASSION AND UNDERSTANDING. Don't come in to this forum throwing your "wisdom" round just because you have the "therapist' words on your resume. You knoew very well that you don't know EXACTLY what is going on here. You do not need to be leading anyone in any dirrection. we don't even know who you are.
and for the rest of you do not be so immature as to typing your words of knowledge towards those girls who are in pain. You do not know what they are going through.
WHAT ANGER DO YOU HAVE FOR HAVING TO COME IN HERE AND HAVING TO CONTINOUSLY POST YOUR OPINIONS? IF YOUR SO "MATURE" AND "MOVED ON" THEN DAM IT AND MOVE ON. DON'T BE SUCH HYPOCRITES...GO ON LIVE YOUR DANDY LIVES....... or maybe..perhaps,,, you have "issues" as well, as your accusing these girls of.
I would like to see whose going to argue with that! :roll: mind your biz
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Why don't you talk about yourselves in the present and support each other on current traumas and triumphs and take your painful memories to a professional who can help you gain understanding, stability and compassion about past wrongs from parents, teachers and others. ... Otherwise, this sounds like a bunch of immature whining..........."
Perhaps if these girls would have been taken to "a professional" as adolescents, they would have had a very different (more positive and productive) experience, and would not sound "like a bunch of immature whining".
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Okay, I have made like 80 posts on this forum, and still have not learned to quote from another post.
The begining of that last post was a quote from page 2.
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Hi Katie,
Have been wondering how you're doing... would love to talk sometime! Please send me a private message so we can.