Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Maximilian on September 13, 2010, 04:24:49 PM
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I am wondering what people's opinions are on this. Do you feel that juvenile hall is a preferable location for a troubled teen, than them being placed in a program?
Let's say a parent knows their teen is using drugs, and knows the teen is stealing from the neighbors home to support their drug use. What should the parent do?
Should the parent call the police and have their own teen arrested for burglary and drug possession?
Should the parent ignore this behavior, and hope it gets better?
Should the parent confront their teen and attempt to control the situation themselves?
But what if the teen is caught by the police. The judge gives the parent a choice, six months in a juvenile hall or state run boot camp, or the parent can send the kid to a private program instead. What would you suggest this parent do?
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Well, I don't think a program specializing in mind fuckery and emotional abuse is EVER appropriate. I think jail may be appropriate for some things, but not normal teenage defiance orsmoking weed. I personally would benefit from neither. My life wasn't saved by an abusive program, and I am not a criminal.
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I guess what I'm saying is that it often shouldn't be an either/or situation.
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From my personal stand point I couldn’t imagine choosing Juvy for my child. If a parent can afford a private stay then they should take that route. The children in juvy don’t tend to move along very well academically or learn new study habits. Many of these kids are severely behind academically to the point where they are overwhelmed and decide to opt for a GED. Programs can offer so much more. The down side for many of the posters here are the LGAT’s which seem to be a big sticky point but I think the upside outweighs the down side in many cases.
I realize this doesn’t apply to all programs. A parents need to do their homework and choose a program which is a good fit for their child’s needs or seek guidance from someone who knows about the industry.
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I guess what I'm saying is that it often shouldn't be an either/or situation.
Well it is, more then we like. (I don't mean this to be offensive). It is a great question because many kids face the problem. I would love to have a survey done that showed how many kids had the choice between juvie and a program. Boy, I think it would be interesting.
I know many folks here have a hard time with children being disciplined for their actions, well whether we like it or not folks, judges, PO's, school boards, have a hand at disciplining a wayward child. There are wayward children also that get themselves in way over their heads in trouble.
No I don't believe that the juvie I went to was better then Elan. The violence being dolled out by guards, (guards pets boys), bullies, gangs ect...was horrible. YCC in R.I. was out of control in the early seventies.
I have visited several juvenile centers in Georgia and the violence is still there, intimidation by others, gangs, sexual deviancy, drugs ect....
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So, I'm not really understanding the point of these questions. The "which is better/worse" questions. Is it that if you can find something....anything that we would consider worse than being in a program that it would suddenly make what programs do okay?
But to answer your question, I'd rather be in "juvie" than in Straight. I would have access to my rights in juvie. I'd have due process before being sent off to juvie. I'd have a way of contacting someone if I felt I was being abused in juvie. I'd be able to write letters to other family members in juvie.
But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.
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So, I'm not really understanding the point of these questions. The "which is better/worse" questions. Is it that if you can find something....anything that we would consider worse than being in a program that it would suddenly make what programs do okay?
But to answer your question, I'd rather be in "juvie" than in Straight. I would have access to my rights in juvie. I'd have due process before being sent off to juvie. I'd have a way of contacting someone if I felt I was being abused in juvie. I'd be able to write letters to other family members in juvie.
But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.
I want to strongly argue with you, no you would not have access "to my rights". There is no "due process" unless they say so. You contact some one pretty much like you did at Straight. Your letters are screened going in and out, plus it is a "privilege" in juvie that can be taken away. Everything is a "privilege" not a right in juvie. Not saying this is right just a reality.
Oh, it is a situation that is more often then you think, it just is not going on in Samara or your world. Not to be condescending or judgmental in any way, Anne but it really is not.
No most of these $50,000.00 programs were talking about here are not dealing with the majority of the kids ending up in juvie but there is enough upper middle class and up that are there for serious crimes.
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So, I'm not really understanding the point of these questions. The "which is better/worse" questions. Is it that if you can find something....anything that we would consider worse than being in a program that it would suddenly make what programs do okay?
But to answer your question, I'd rather be in "juvie" than in Straight. I would have access to my rights in juvie. I'd have due process before being sent off to juvie. I'd have a way of contacting someone if I felt I was being abused in juvie. I'd be able to write letters to other family members in juvie.
But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.
Straight really didnt have any end point from what I have read. If you went to juvy at least you would know the day you would be getting out. I think based on that alone I would choose juvy over straight myself (not even considering all the cult stuff you guys had to put up with). In my opinion a program needs to have defined steps towards the final end point of when you leave.
The daunting cloud of never knowing if you would ever leave would be unbearable in my opinion.
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So, I'm not really understanding the point of these questions. The "which is better/worse" questions. Is it that if you can find something....anything that we would consider worse than being in a program that it would suddenly make what programs do okay?
But to answer your question, I'd rather be in "juvie" than in Straight. I would have access to my rights in juvie. I'd have due process before being sent off to juvie. I'd have a way of contacting someone if I felt I was being abused in juvie. I'd be able to write letters to other family members in juvie.
But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.
Straight really didnt have any end point from what I have read. If you went to juvy at least you would know the day you would be getting out. I think based on that alone I would choose juvy over straight myself (not even considering all the cult stuff you guys had to put up with). In my opinion a program needs to have defined steps towards the final end point of when you leave.
The daunting cloud of never knowing if you would ever leave would be unbearable in my opinion.
NO shit, I agree.
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I want to strongly argue with you, no you would not have access "to my rights".
Well, I want to say, strongly, that people in "juvie" at the same time I was in Straight did indeed have access to their rights. I was pissed as hell when I got out of Straight and found out about it too.
There is no due process unless they say so. You contact some one pretty much like you did at Straight.
Contact who at Straight?? We weren't allowed to contact anyone. Period.
Your letters are screened going in and out, plus it is a privilege in juvie that can be taken away. Everything is a privilege not a right in juvie. Not saying this is right just a reality.
Oh, it is a situation that is more often then you think, it just is not going on in Samara or your world. Not to be condescending or judgmental in any way, Anne but it really is not.
You may not have meant it to be, but it sure did come across that way. The facts, as I know them from my experience and that of someone who was in Florida's "juvie" at the same time I was, are that they had access to their rights. There was an abuse hotline phone number on damn near every wall inside "juvie" and they could call it at any time. Not that it meant that they 'got out', but at least they had some semblance of rights as a human being. We were told, flat out by Virgil himself, that "we didn't have no goddamned rights".
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Please don't take offense Anne, I am trying real hard to mend fences with you. It will take time for you to understand me.
I guess so. If you're serious, I appreciate the effort.
My point was there are plenty of parents with their children that are facing this decision. Usually come down to money and slots being open in State/Federal funded programs.
If parents can afford the kinds of places we're discussing here, they can damn well afford decent treatment or at the very least a decent alternative (backpacking thru Europe or something similar as I've suggested. Be a parent! Get involved with your child's life, especially if they're struggling!!)
Anne, you just proved my point, we had those damn messages on the walls too but they never let you use the "damn" phone. Mom visited me once a month, (once a fucking month) I am still pissed at that hell hole.
Yeh, semblance that's all it was.[/b] [/color]
For 8 months the only glimpse I had of my parents was from across the warehouse, them with microphone in hand telling me how horrible I was (in front of 350 - 400 kids plus all their parents, never mind that I was never 'horrible' by any stretch of the imagination) and how much they hoped I'd "internalize the program" soon so that they could speak to me.
Wait.....occasionally I'd "earn" a 5 minute supervised "talk" with them during which I was only allowed to apologize for all my "past sins". If I tried to tell them what was really happening to me, I was severely punished afterwards in the unbelievably feared and dreaded "open meeting review".
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I am wondering what people's opinions are on this. Do you feel that juvenile hall is a preferable location for a troubled teen, than them being placed in a program?
Let's say a parent knows their teen is using drugs, and knows the teen is stealing from the neighbors home to support their drug use. What should the parent do?
Should the parent call the police and have their own teen arrested for burglary and drug possession?
Should the parent ignore this behavior, and hope it gets better?
Should the parent confront their teen and attempt to control the situation themselves?
But what if the teen is caught by the police. The judge gives the parent a choice, six months in a juvenile hall or state run boot camp, or the parent can send the kid to a private program instead. What would you suggest this parent do?
It all depends on the specific situation, the nature of the offense, and the program. Impossible to give a simple "yes" or "no" answer.
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Rejection was the worse emotion I felt at the Juvie Hall, they really did not care whether you got better or not, they were no attempts at educating you.
So even though Elan was a crazy insane asylum, some of the staff at least made you feel they cared and were trying to help you.
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Depends on the program and the facility for me. For example, the juvie near my hometown in Washington State. A friend of mine used to work there till not long ago in the administration department. She and I were comparing notes and it seems plain as day that if I had a choice between six months in that juvie and six months in Three Springs, I'd pick the Juvie.
For one, kids regularly get turned out of the Juvie early due to crowding issues. Second, they get their three meals, a bed to sleep on, a shower, clean clothing, and access to entertainment guaranteed by the state every single day. Conditions inside the juvie are pretty tame as the kids inside are kept busy enough to keep them out of most trouble. It would be easy time.. in and out so to speak. Three Springs, no possible way you'd be out in six months if they had their say in it.
If I had to choose between a California Youth Authority juvie and a Three Springs program I'd probably take Three Springs. At least in Three Springs you have a better chance of escaping if you run away and the hideous amounts of bullshit you can get into if you decide to stay makes for an easier stretch of time versus getting the shit beat out of you on a regular basis in a CYA facility. It's all relative to me as the varying quality of programs versus the varying quality of state juvenile facilities. With the increasing spread of abuse hotlines in programs it occurs to me that within 5 to 10 years the claim that at least you have the right to contact the authorities in a juvie will be all but highly blurred.
Still, there is no escaping the fact that a program is simply you getting drug out of your bed and forced into a treatment routine without your consent.
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But as Samara said, it very often isn't an either or situation.
I've seen some posters here claiming they'd rather be in jail rather than a program, I wonder why they say this. I've also seen posters here giving advice that it's better to call the cops on your troubled teen if they are breaking the law, than send them to a program. I'm just curious how people come to these conclusions, and why they feel that way.
Personally, I'd rather be kept out of the justice system and if I was given a choice I'd choose the private program, but that's me.
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Yet you weren't given that choice now were you? So you'll never really know if your life without Tim Robbins being forced up your ass every meal time could have turned out differently.
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To me the question is like 'Which would you rather have cut off, your hand or your foot?' Either one is horrible and will have lasting affects. I think you can pick apart both to say 'we could do this in jail, we could do this in a program' kind of thing, I've never been in juvie or prison so my perspective is limited, but there were plenty of kids locked up with me in HLA who were given the option of HLA or jail and chose HLA instead.
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I am wondering what people's opinions are on this. Do you feel that juvenile hall is a preferable location for a troubled teen, than them being placed in a program?
Let's say a parent knows their teen is using drugs, and knows the teen is stealing from the neighbors home to support their drug use. What should the parent do?
Should the parent call the police and have their own teen arrested for burglary and drug possession?
Should the parent ignore this behavior, and hope it gets better?
Should the parent confront their teen and attempt to control the situation themselves?
But what if the teen is caught by the police. The judge gives the parent a choice, six months in a juvenile hall or state run boot camp, or the parent can send the kid to a private program instead. What would you suggest this parent do?
According to parents on the board Conductdisorders (http://http://www.conductdisorders.com/forum/forum.php) the parents should call the police on their own kids. I happen to disagree with them, but I am not living in a culture where public psychological treatment is equal juvenile hall and court reference.
Not they should not ignore the behavior. They should investigate what is going on with an open mind. It is wellknown that problems can be caused due to problems in the family dynamics. Are both parents onboard or are they using their child as tool to fix a domestic issue? Are they using alcohol or perscription medication in front of their child while lecturing it about the dangers of alcohol and drugs teaching the doublestandards? Should they go to rehab first to set the good example? Is the community the problem? Can they join forces with other parents? Are there options for teenagers at all in the community?
Yes, they should confront their children, but in many cases they should seek training in how to conduct the confrontation. If people never are challenged on their actions how should they change them?
The juvenile hall should always be chosen but with a application for a psychological evaluation. Too many kids are overmedicated. They need to be taken off medication. State run boot camps are killers. The number teenagers killed in prove this statement. Private run programs can not be chosen with such a short time for proper evaluation. The decision of what program the child would go to would be a matter of who is paying the educational consultant the highest referral fee rather than what is in the best interest of the child.
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Yet you weren't given that choice now were you? So you'll never really know if your life without Tim Robbins being forced up your ass every meal time could have turned out differently.
Sometimes I can't sleep at night and I lay in bed thinking about all the what if's. Like what if my parents had decided to call the cops on me and had me put in juvenile hall instead of a program, perhaps I would be a doctor or a lawyer, instead of the loser I am now. But hey, you got to deal with the hand life deals you. I think it's Tony Robbins, btw, Tim Robbins is that actor II'm pretty sure.
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I am wondering what people's opinions are on this. Do you feel that juvenile hall is a preferable location for a troubled teen, than them being placed in a program?
Let's say a parent knows their teen is using drugs, and knows the teen is stealing from the neighbors home to support their drug use. What should the parent do?
Should the parent call the police and have their own teen arrested for burglary and drug possession?
Should the parent ignore this behavior, and hope it gets better?
Should the parent confront their teen and attempt to control the situation themselves?
But what if the teen is caught by the police. The judge gives the parent a choice, six months in a juvenile hall or state run boot camp, or the parent can send the kid to a private program instead. What would you suggest this parent do?
According to parents on the board Conduct disorders (http://http://www.conductdisorders.com/forum/forum.php) the parents should call the police on their own kids. I happen to disagree with them, but I am not living in a culture where public psychological treatment is equal juvenile hall and court reference.
Not they should not ignore the behavior. They should investigate what is going on with an open mind. It is well known that problems can be caused due to problems in the family dynamics. Are both parents on board or are they using their child as tool to fix a domestic issue? Are they using alcohol or prescription medication in front of their child while lecturing it about the dangers of alcohol and drugs teaching the double standards? Should they go to rehab first to set the good example? Is the community the problem? Can they join forces with other parents? Are there options for teenagers at all in the community?
Yes, they should confront their children, but in many cases they should seek training in how to conduct the confrontation. If people never are challenged on their actions how should they change them?
The juvenile hall should always be chosen but with a application for a psychological evaluation. Too many kids are over medicated. They need to be taken off medication. State run boot camps are killers. The number teenagers killed in prove this statement. Private run programs can not be chosen with such a short time for proper evaluation. The decision of what program the child would go to would be a matter of who is paying the educational consultant the highest referral fee rather than what is in the best interest of the child.
Oscar, though I agree with your comments above for a moderate situation between a child and his parents but once it has progressed above mod and gone into full blown rebellion then I don't blame parents for calling the authorities. Often times when the police are not called, innocent people get hurt like parents, siblings and unaware neighbors ect......
This rebellion could be caused by drug addiction, alcohol and emotional/mental issues that have not been appropriately dealt with (go figure).
Now when the child comes back home after his short stay in jail, then maybe local remedies can be sought out to help the issues the child has but if the situation escalates again to dangerous levels, well what can you do.
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Oscar, though I agree with your comments above for a moderate situation between a child and his parents but once it has progressed above mod and gone into full blown rebellion then I don't blame parents for calling the authorities. Often times when the police are not called, innocent people get hurt like parents, siblings unaware neighbors ect......
This rebellion could be caused by drug addiction, alcohol and emotional/mental issues that have not been appropriately dealt with (go figure).
Now when the child comes back home after his short stay in jail, then maybe local remedies can be sought out to help the issues the child has but if the situation escalates again to dangerous levels, well what can you do.
It depends of the resources. I would for sure not wait until the situation needs help from the police, but I am aware that my options are much better than in other places. In some states you cannot help for your child unless the courts order it. Then you have to call the police regardless of the fact the kid will get a recoard.
Here is a story of a broken system: Saving Alex: A Mother Finally Got Desperately Needed Help for Her Troubled Son — By Having Him Arrested (http://http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2009-10-08/news/saving-alex-a-mother-finally-got-desperately-needed-help-for-her-troubled-son-by-calling-the-cops-on-him/) (Phoenix New Times)
Due to the money problems here in Denmark we have been forced to cut back on residential placement. It has gone down 20 percent in two years. Because you cannot ignore the problems we have improved our community based option so much that you can keep kids locally while treating them.
Rebellion - it must be expected by a teenager. alcohol intake is OK as long as the percentage is below 16.5 according to new research, drug use will demand training of the parents and close police monitor if the kid owns money to the dealers. Because dealers mostly have more than one customer it will demand some kind of co-orpation between parents to kick the deal off the campus
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Oscar, though I agree with your comments above for a moderate situation between a child and his parents but once it has progressed above mod and gone into full blown rebellion then I don't blame parents for calling the authorities. Often times when the police are not called, innocent people get hurt like parents, siblings unaware neighbors ect......
This rebellion could be caused by drug addiction, alcohol and emotional/mental issues that have not been appropriately dealt with (go figure).
Now when the child comes back home after his short stay in jail, then maybe local remedies can be sought out to help the issues the child has but if the situation escalates again to dangerous levels, well what can you do.
It depends of the resources. I would for sure not wait until the situation needs help from the police, but I am aware that my options are much better than in other places. In some states you cannot help for your child unless the courts order it. Then you have to call the police regardless of the fact the kid will get a recoard.
Here is a story of a broken system: Saving Alex: A Mother Finally Got Desperately Needed Help for Her Troubled Son — By Having Him Arrested (http://http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2009-10-08/news/saving-alex-a-mother-finally-got-desperately-needed-help-for-her-troubled-son-by-calling-the-cops-on-him/) (Phoenix New Times)
This is a mother that is one crafty gal, she played the system.
Due to the money problems here in Denmark we have been forced to cut back on residential placement. It has gone down 20 percent in two years. Because you cannot ignore the problems we have improved our community based option so much that you can keep kids locally while treating them.
Rebellion - it must be expected by a teenager. alcohol intake is OK as long as the percentage is below 16.5 according to new research, drug use will demand training of the parents and close police monitor if the kid owns money to the dealers. Because dealers mostly have more than one customer it will demand some kind of co-orpation between parents to kick the deal off the campus
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I think it's Tom Robbins, the counter culture author.
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Speaking of Conductsdisorders. Here is such a thread about jail contra RTC (http://http://www.conductdisorders.com/forum/f6/nobody-wants-put-their-child-group-home-35890/).
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Rly? WTF kind of perverted Pepsi challenge is this?
Is jail better than parents?
Is a program better than god?
Do you believe in innocent drugs?
What troubled teens would you legalize?
You sure do ask some hard hitting questions. Let me know how that sociology paper turns out.
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Rly? WTF kind of perverted Pepsi challenge is this?
Is jail better than parents?
Is a program better than god?
Do you believe in innocent drugs?
What troubled teens would you legalize?
You sure do ask some hard hitting questions. Let me know how that sociology paper turns out.
Are you a Politician? :suicide: ::evil::
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Rly? WTF kind of perverted Pepsi challenge is this?
Is jail better than parents?
Is a program better than god?
Do you believe in innocent drugs?
What troubled teens would you legalize?
You sure do ask some hard hitting questions. Let me know how that sociology paper turns out.
Yup....same reaction I had.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=31177&start=0#p379027 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=31177&start=0#p379027)
Is it just me, or do all these threads by Max...
What illegal drugs would you legalize?
Do you believe in God?
How do you feel towards your parents?
Is Jail better than a program?
The Parents Side of the Story
seem like some desperate attempt to explain why so many of "us" aren't grateful for what was done "for" us? Kinda like the 'disgruntled druggie' thing we've all dealt with? We're either heathens, drug abusers, parent haters, deadbeats or just ungrateful little brats. Amirite?
It's probably just me.
:feedtrolls: (yeah, yeah...I know...I do it all the time. I'm looking for a 12 step group to help me out with it :seg: )
But, to stay on the thread topic - I'll let Law Enforcement Against Prohibition speak for me. They say it better than I ever could and they have lots of fancy statistics and sources that would take too much time to copy/paste here.
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php (http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php)
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Drugs are better than jail. Drugs are also better than a program. Kinky sex is good, too.
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Drugs are better than jail. Drugs are also better than a program. Kinky sex is good, too.
:cheers: that's the best comment I've read on this thread. Drugs are way better than
Programs or Jail, and Kinky Sex (the hetero kind) RULES!
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:seg:
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Sigh, yeah and rarely is there ever any choice in the matter and all too often there’s just not any damn difference.
Locked inside a nightmare (http://http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/05/09/60II/main193636.shtml)
She got through it. She got out. She took them to court and still she shot herself--twice to end it.