Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Facility Question and Answers => Topic started by: psy on January 30, 2007, 11:04:57 PM
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Welcome Charley
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So what happens here?
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this is a moderated thread.
So. here is where TSW has to be nice to you... and others.
And that goes both ways too.
SO. starter question. Did your son ever discuss groups?
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When he was still there, he seemed to like the workshops. I wonder if it was just because it was something different. That's what makes me wonder if they were "softer" than what you describe- CEDU etc
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lemme ask you something about ratting out. Your son was encouraged to turn on his friends about ... often pathetic stuff. he refused. Does this show his strength? What does it say about the program's repect of his values?
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I think it shows my son is strong (no surprise there). I'm not sure what all he was supposed to rat about, but he doesn't do that stuff.
When I asked him about the groups over Christmas, I told you his responses. He wanted to go to the third workshop before he left Carlbrook, but they wouldn't let him because he was a short-timer
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When he was still there, he seemed to like the workshops. I wonder if it was just because it was something different. That's what makes me wonder if they were "softer" than what you describe- CEDU etc
You watched the Landmark forum documentary right? Did people hate it. Of course not. The entire point is for you to love it.
What they do is create an emotional breakdown using ... for example.. painful childhood memories, and then once you're miserable.. they hand you abox of tissues and have a hug-fest. people love it. they create misery... with a myriad of methods... and when you're exhausted and broken down... cash in.
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bans. that is a cedu term afaik. it may be also straight but i do not know for sure. It referrs to a ban on communication with a person or a group.
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If they thought kids were forming too strong a bond and possibly excluding others- usually boy/girl bond but could be same sex friendship- they put you on "bans". This meant you had to act like the other kid didn't exist- i.e. couldn't even hold the door for them.
My son, for some reason, seems to be very attractive to girls. (not that he treats them very well :)) Anyway, he immediately was on bans with his female counterpart, the Carlbrook "babe". Subsequently, he got on bans with ALL Females.
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If they thought kids were forming too strong a bond and possibly excluding others- usually boy/girl bond but could be same sex friendship- they put you on "bans". This meant you had to act like the other kid didn't exist- i.e. couldn't even hold the door for them.
My son, for some reason, seems to be very attractive to girls. (not that he treats them very well :)) Anyway, he immediately was on bans with his female counterpart, the Carlbrook "babe". Subsequently, he got on bans with ALL Females.
So. Normal relationships... they don't encourage. Friendships... Any cedu vets want to elaborate on what a "friend" is redefined to be in program?
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I could see the bans-thing to a certain extent, but it tended to be applied very arbitrarily. My son said if the head guy felt like it he would just say to a kid, "You're on bans with XXXX" for no reason.
The thing that I DID understand was the fact that a lot of the girls had real boundary issues with boys- that was a big part of their problem. My son was warned by some pretty good therapists to stay away from this one girl and he didn't. It was pretty disastrous for both of them. She told my son he was "helping her" and he bought it. She is still a mess- 3 years later.
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I might as well answer my own question in case there aren't any cedu vets handy.
A "friend" means "the harsher the truth to tell, the truer the friend that tells it" NOT "the harder..."
If you are a "friend" you are supposed to be a friend by helping others to "follow the program" IE. rat on other students. If you are a friend... you will confront other friends in group, attacking them about flaws you see in them...
that is program friendship. Getting close... god forbid love.. is verboten.
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That is why they had 4 in a room- so there wouldn't be twosies forming. I agree they probably had that view of friendship. My son actually made some good friends there- he is still in touch with a lot of them- especially the girls.
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I could see the bans-thing to a certain extent, but it tended to be applied very arbitrarily. My son said if the head guy felt like it he would just say to a kid, "You're on bans with XXXX" for no reason.
If they had a reason, they may have had a hunch.. and that was enough...
The thing that I DID understand was the fact that a lot of the girls had real boundary issues with boys- that was a big part of their problem. My son was warned by some pretty good therapists to stay away from this one girl and he didn't. It was pretty disastrous for both of them. She told my son he was "helping her" and he bought it. She is still a mess- 3 years later.
He fell for a girl.. Since when do young people listen to their elders about love? That whole area is a "learn by doing" thing exclusively.
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That is why they had 4 in a room- so there wouldn't be twosies forming. I agree they probably had that view of friendship. My son actually made some good friends there- he is still in touch with a lot of them- especially the girls.
This isn't to say friendships didn't form... Lots of "bonds" formed... how many could be considered "friendships" is another argument entirely...
When you're in group. you learn almost everything there is to know about other people. It's hard not to get closer as a group. But it's not always closer in a healthy way... Like I said.. attacking was love...
Great analogy: Group was verbal fight group.... with emotions and words...
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Groups-- I think twice a week. Maybe 3 times. The groups were coed and I seem to recall that you could "call" someone to be in your group. So-if you wanted to confront someone or yell at them, you requested a group with them. This was awhile ago, but I think that's how it worked. Then the kid who was "invited" got to sit there and get shit.
There were some good staff who led better groups than others. My son particularly objected to one senior staff- he hated me and my son and took it out on my son.
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If three people were sitting around with my mom trying to piece together an experience I had based on the bits and pieces that I chose to tell her.. .it would be amusing indeed. This is a carlbrook thread, with no kids posting here that ever went to carlbrook. Its like trying to discuss programs with the who. Since nobody has experienced it, everything is possible.. everything up for grabs. I remember a few years ago when I first found this forum wwasps didnt have its own forum or anything like that and I just read. because it was mostly theoretical talk from program parents.. not a whole lot of kids posting on the net about their experience... then or now. as the stories started to build that theoretical talk disappeared because there were finally some facts to work with. my point is that this argument can go in a million ways, but it doesnt change the facts and nthe truth is none of us know them.
If you asked my parent about my program experience ..i cant tell you how wrong of a source that would be. i would hate you for doing that, because it would obscure the debate with their conjecture and brainwashing and all that good stuff.
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You ask how carlbrook could be bad for a kid? What if they embrace those social norms and when they get home they apply it to their friends and family? Because they will, it will be ingrained in them until they take the time to deprogram themsleves of that bull crap. You might notice a program vs program undertone to a lot of duscussion here thats because they divide the kids. Some buy into it and embrace it, others fight it and see it for what it is like your son. But it seems to me you agree your son was correct in misbehaving in these ways? Am I correct in that, or would you prefered he learned the ethics of ratting out friends to benefit yourself, etc? Most parents see these aspects of program as a good thing, and pay good money for it. They arent on the phone all day long criticizing the program, they are doing the opposite. Then theres ones like Sue Scheff who take it to a whole new level and build a little empire based on their experience as a program parent and fall in love with the whole scheme..
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I only feel qualified to talk about some of this because Psy and I were talking over Christmas when my son was right next to me so I could actually ask him. He is far enough removed from it that I think I got pretty accurate answers. He's not the most verbal person on the subject, though.
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Groups-- I think twice a week. Maybe 3 times. The groups were coed and I seem to recall that you could "call" someone to be in your group.
ask your kid for details on that. It sounds like a firing squad.
So-if you wanted to confront someone or yell at them, you requested a group with them.
i should really read the whole post before responding. :lol:
This was awhile ago, but I think that's how it worked. Then the kid who was "invited" got to sit there and get shit.
There were some good staff who led better groups than others. My son particularly objected to one senior staff- he hated me and my son and took it out on my son.
How so? Why didn't your son like him?
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Groups-- I think twice a week. Maybe 3 times. The groups were coed and I seem to recall that you could "call" someone to be in your group. So-if you wanted to confront someone or yell at them, you requested a group with them. This was awhile ago, but I think that's how it worked. Then the kid who was "invited" got to sit there and get shit.
There were some good staff who led better groups than others. My son particularly objected to one senior staff- he hated me and my son and took it out on my son.
This format is different from what I knew. We had nightly groups with the kids required to do two topics a week where they spoke their piece and got feed back from the group and counselors. The rest of the time they could call huddles to discuss group issues at any time to confront or to compliment fellow group members.
Was their any set rotation of topics in group or was it all spontaneous?
Was their any limits set on what sort of behavior could be demonstrated in Group? Meaning could you yell and scream at a person to your hearts content or did the kids have some sort of guidelines?
At least at bmark.. they had a moderator.. but he/she acted more as a battlefield commander... coordinating the verbal attacks to be more on target (on the issues)...
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The guy was incompetent. I've discussed him before. He was the "Dean of Academics" but he was an idiot. I couldn't get him to anything in the way of making sure my son got to take the standardized tests he needed for the next schools, etc. The academic issues were totally botched by him, even though the teachers themselves were pretty good. The guy felt that I exposed his incompetence, I think. He was strange. He's been at other programs- Glenn Bender.
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I only feel qualified to talk about some of this because Psy and I were talking over Christmas when my son was right next to me so I could actually ask him. He is far enough removed from it that I think I got pretty accurate answers. He's not the most verbal person on the subject, though.
That is undestandable. It's a lot easier to move past.. move on.. and leave behind the bad times.. problem is for me.. I keep thinking about the people still there. well. maybe your son will be bothered by it some day.
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I don't think the groups were nightly. At night they had "last lights" after study hall etc. At "last lights" a kid could speak about something on his or her mind.
The groups were in the afternoons after school. I'm not sure about the topics. I don't know if the topics were assigned or if it was a free for all. You had to move across the circle from someone you were going to address. That way you were a "safe" distance from them.
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Hey everyone, just wanted to tell yas I've been reading along..
Gonna go catch Letterman, ttyl.
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The guy was incompetent. I've discussed him before. He was the "Dean of Academics" but he was an idiot. I couldn't get him to anything in the way of making sure my son got to take the standardized tests he needed for the next schools, etc. The academic issues were totally botched by him, even though the teachers themselves were pretty good. The guy felt that I exposed his incompetence, I think. He was strange. He's been at other programs- Glenn Bender.
did your son say anything about what things were talked about in group? how the staff acted?
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I will ask him that. I'm also not sure if the groups had guidelines and the kids were limited in what they could say.
I, too, have to sign off. Short night tonight.
More tomorrow.
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I don't think the groups were nightly. At night they had "last lights" after study hall etc. At "last lights" a kid could speak about something on his or her mind.
"last lights" what a co-incidence.. same word at bmark.. must be common with CEDU clones.
The groups were in the afternoons after school. I'm not sure about the topics. I don't know if the topics were assigned or if it was a free for all. You had to move across the circle from someone you were going to address. That way you were a "safe" distance from them.
yup. ask yourself why that safe distance was needed?
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night
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I only feel qualified to talk about some of this because Psy and I were talking over Christmas when my son was right next to me so I could actually ask him. He is far enough removed from it that I think I got pretty accurate answers. He's not the most verbal person on the subject, though.
That is undestandable. It's a lot easier to move past.. move on.. and leave behind the bad times.. problem is for me.. I keep thinking about the people still there. well. maybe your son will be bothered by it some day.
That's what keeps me coming back here every time I swear I'm leaving. :D Ginger commented a long time ago when we were doing this with some Straight decendant....Growing Together I think. It was a Friday night and she stopped me in my tracks with that comment about kids being in Open Meeting right at that moment. Still gives me the willies to think about. :o
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Hey everyone, just wanted to tell yas I've been reading along..
Gonna go catch Letterman, ttyl.
Hey, not a bad idea. I've been watching him a little more lately. Switching from a Stewart/Colbert overload I think.
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So you seemed to have done your research about these programs and came up with a total of three you found acceptable for your son. I am curious, how many kids does Carlbrook hold? Based on what you are saying, all three schools could only absorb maybe a couple hundred kids. What would you tell the parents of the thousands of other kids who want to send their kid away, once those top three schools are filled... if that were the case, would you recommend a parent seek treatment for their child from a private, unregulated out of state TBS? What would you recommend to those parents in that case?
The reason I ask is because these are the questions that get posed to anti-program people all the time. I am sincerely curious as to how you perceive these questions and what type of advice you would give.
lets say a parent emails you and says their kid was using pot, stole a car with his friends but got away, recently got kicked out of school, and they are considering an aspen wilderness followed by a stay at midwest academy wwasp program... what kind of thing would you say to a parent , seeing as how you have been in a similar situation?
i have another question
you say if a kid ran away they just followed them.. did they do physical restraints, have an isolation room, restraints chemical or leather straps or anything. If not, what happened to a kid who would run away.. were they sent to the next worse level of program? what if your kid had kept pushing the system even harder, how far down wou you have taken it?
i am also curious as to the price of carlbrook. thanks in advance for your perspective.
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So i did a little looking up about Glenn Bender:
"Glenn F. Bender, A.B., M.A., Ph.D. Dean of Academics With a Bachelor of Arts from Kenyon College and a Master of Arts and Doctorate in Philosophy and Educational Policy Studies from the University of Wisconsin, Dr. Bender brings extensive academic and administrative experience to the Board of Regents. During a 25 year career in secondary and higher education, he has served as Dean of Academics and Dean of Admissions at the Academy at Swift River in Massachusetts, Director of Academics at Cascade School in California, Director of Admissions at Blue Ridge School in Virginia, and Professor of Philosophy at the University of Southwestern Louisiana."
That is his resume from the Carlbrook site.
It's incomplete though:
Guess what he did next...
"DIRECTOR OF ADMISSIONS/MARKETING/
Glenn F. Bender, Ph.D., M.A., A.B.
Glenn Bender has a doctorate in philosophy and educational policy studies, as well as a Masters in philosophy from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. During a 25-year career in education, Dr. Bender has served as Dean of Admissions and Dean of Academics at the Academy at Swift River; Director of Academics at the Cascade School, Director of Admissions at Blue Ridge School, Director of Admissions and Director of Academics at Rocky Mountain Academy and Professor of Philosophy at the University of Southwestern Louisiana."
That is his resumé from the Alldredge (Ayne) Academy site.
Odd. Director of admissions at RMA. Same job Lon used to have. Hmm... A pattern i'm seeing here... ::ftard::
Btw. Karen. Rocky Mountain Academy... Worst CEDU school... and this clown was a director....
Cascade? I had a staff member (Carl Janowitz) from there too at bmark... EVIL person.. You know what it was shut down for right? *COUGH* (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=219836#219836) whoo. that was a nasty sneeze.
Oh me oh my. what A coincidence Here's HIS resume
Carl Janowitz, Program Coordinator - SWIFT RIVER ACADEMY
MA, Counseling, California State University; BA, Psychology, California State University; seven years experience as Counseling Supervisor, Cascade School; three years experience as a Counselor, Cedu School, nine years experience as Program Director, Advocate Schools; two years experience teaching english and journalism.
interesting that all these completely different people follow such similar career paths.. isn't it.
Now the fucker (Carl that is) is dying of cancer. Karma's a bitch! ::cheers::
Alldredge (later "officially" changed to Ayne) academy... Named twice to avoid the feds! Why? hm... i did research on this one for somebody:
Due to felony child neglect charges, resulting in the death of a child, Alldredge closed and opened (offcially) under a new name.
http://www.isaccorp.org/alldredge/alldr ... 15.02.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/alldredge/alldredge-academy.05.15.02.html)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=4233#4233 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=4233#4233)
Aw hell: just do this: http://http://www.google.com/search?q=alldredge+site:fornits.com
Oh.. and according to this court document (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/alldredge/alldredgefrostbite.pdf) the clown was director of admissions at the place at the time this little incident... Read up.
I feel i should stop..
Oh... fudge.. i'm gonna
Joseph left Alldredge Academy on December 14, 2000 and
met the Giannones at Philadelphia International Airport. Joseph
could not walk without excruciating pain, so his parents used a
wheelchair to transport him to their car and had to assist him
into their house. Safely at home, Joseph told his parents that,
at Alldredge, he had slept outside in the snow, sheltered only by
a sleeping bag with a plastic cover. Id. at ¶¶ 91-96.
The next day, the Giannones took Joseph to the
Emergency Room at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Joseph
had lost fifteen pounds since entering Alldredge's program, and
doctors diagnosed him with bi-lateral frostbite of the feet and
neuropathic pain. Joseph received pain medication and remained
at the hospital overnight. Later, he was transferred to the
intensive care unit. Id. at ¶¶ 98-104, 115.
Over the following days, Joseph began to relate some of
his experiences at Alldredge to his parents. He had slept
outside in the cold without any kind of heat or shelter, except
for his sleeping bag. Alldredge employees berated Joseph when he
asked to speak with his parents. Unable to make a fire for
himself, Joseph attempted to eat "frozen" food, but the food
caused him to vomit. Travis and Keith, two Alldredge employees,
poured water down his throat, causing him to choke, and they
poured water on his chest as a form of punishment. The wet
clothing froze and stuck to Joseph's body, leaving him cold
throughout the day. Id. at ¶¶ 108-14.
On their own behalf on behalf of Joseph, the Giannones
filed a Consolidated Amended Complaint against the Alldredge
Defendants,1 the Greene Defendants,2 and fifteen John Does. The
complaint includes twenty-three counts, including thirteen counts
against the Alldredge Defendants and eleven counts against the
Greene Defendants.3 The Giannones seek to recover from the
Alldredge Defendants for violations of the Racketeer Influenced
and Corrupt Organizations Act and for negligent child abuse,
fraud, fraudulent misrepresentation, breach of fiduciary duty,
breach of contract, assault, battery, negligence, negligent
supervision, intentional infliction of emotional distress,
negligent infliction of emotional distress, and civil conspiracy.
ASR... Holy Poop! It has a 125 page thread devoted entirely to it...
http://http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2826&forum=9&1818
Summary here (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=19966) (thanks TSW)
Any other staff names you got?
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Dr. Phil- The circumstances you describe would not warrant sending a kid away. Also, I don't believe there are thousands of parents wanting to find a placement for a struggling teen- I could be wrong, but that seems high. I didn't look at the other two schools we considered, so I can't say if I would have found them OK at the end of the day. Carlbrook seemed to suit what we wanted- at least based on the initial visit and information we got.
I really think every kid's situation is different. Many will agree to family counseling or good local therapy. Some need a rehab program for substance abuse (short term). I am not a psychologist, so I can't say, but I actually have only recommended Carlbrook to a few people- those who had a pretty mild mannered kid who was in wilderness at the time and the family was looking for a TBS with pretty strong academics.
Psy- the staff is listed on the website. I know the ones who were there three years ago, which includes all the principals. One excellent senior staff person who was there is not there now- he got crosswise with the Boss.
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Looks like I'm going to have to get involved in this thread after I've read it.
Don't forget Tim Brace.
Rma/CEDU incarnate.
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I don't know the topics. I'll have to find that out.
Re: Tim Brace Consensus seems to be that he was very mild at Carlbrook and not very confrontational- more inclined to weep than to yell.
Want to mention that boys wore dress shirts and ties to class and girls wore nice pants or skirts. Had the feel of a southern prep school. Pretty campus with nice facilities and adding more. I think there is a new dining hall now. The portable buildings that were there won some kind of award for being so well done that they didn't look at all like portable buildings. The main building looked like a plantation house.
Reading didn't appear to be censored. Everyone was into DaVinci Code at the time. My kid read that and got into Ayn Rand and Shakespeare.
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Dr. Phil- The circumstances you describe would not warrant sending a kid away. Also, I don't believe there are thousands of parents wanting to find a placement for a struggling teen- I could be wrong, but that seems high. I didn't look at the other two schools we considered, so I can't say if I would have found them OK at the end of the day. Carlbrook seemed to suit what we wanted- at least based on the initial visit and information we got.
I really think every kid's situation is different. Many will agree to family counseling or good local therapy. Some need a rehab program for substance abuse (short term). I am not a psychologist, so I can't say, but I actually have only recommended Carlbrook to a few people- those who had a pretty mild mannered kid who was in wilderness at the time and the family was looking for a TBS with pretty strong academics.
Im just assuming that number since thousands of kids have passed through one program, wwasps, all by itself.. then if you added all the unregulated TBS and abusive regulated TBS together it would be a lot more places than we care to think. I am just wondering, if a huge group of people like that were looking for placement, what do you tell them. Because that is the reality of the situation right now. Anyways, you forgot to mention the price of the program, and if you dont mind how long is the average stay for a kid?
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Carlbrook cost $5000 a month at the time my son was there. I think it has gone up. The kids got computers after a couple of months (no internet). There was a "tech fee" that we paid for this. My son thought it was a crappy computer, but he has pretty high standards.
The program is 14-15 months. There are graduations in March, May, August and December. (I think March is accurate)
I am not claiming to be an expert. All I can report is my experience and what I can get out of my son. I did have a lot more contact with the place than most parents- I can assure you of that. I also have had a lot of contact with graduates and parents since then.
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Re: Tim Brace Consensus seems to be that he was very mild at Carlbrook and not very confrontational- more inclined to weep than to yell.
I guess that consensus didn't bother to mention his predisposition for inviting boys up into his office privately for some more "intimate" smooshing? Nothing blatant or concrete enough to give a student adequate evidence for filing charges... just nice, no-boundaries, incredibly uncomfortable affection... in his office... with the door closed.
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Are you serious? Was he ever accused of that? Any charges filed?
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Are you serious? Was he ever accused of that? Any charges filed?
Of course not! Were any of the sexually predatory staff who worked at CEDU ever charged with anything?
Besides, it's soooo easy to blur the lines when you have all this disgusting forced affection going on. Sure, I may not fuck you, or cross any blatant line like grinding uglies, but maybe I'll take you aside and have a snuggle fest with you all to myself, where no one can see us.
Come ON Karen!
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I can completely see that happening.
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Re: Tim Brace Consensus seems to be that he was very mild at Carlbrook and not very confrontational- more inclined to weep than to yell.
I guess that consensus didn't bother to mention his predisposition for inviting boys up into his office privately for some more "intimate" smooshing? Nothing blatant or concrete enough to give a student adequate evidence for filing charges... just nice, no-boundaries, incredibly uncomfortable affection... in his office... with the door closed.
I definitely need to ask my brother about this dude.
Tim was already gone by the time your brother got there. Doug Kim-Brown was the headmaster then.
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Let's meet Tim Brace everybody:
Tim Brace, B.A., M.C. Dean of Students Mr. Brace has truly inspired a generation of students through his vision, innovation and educational leadership. During his distinguished career over the past 25 years, he has served as Headmaster or Executive Director at several secondary boarding schools, including Mt. Bachelor Academy in Oregon and the Academy at Swift River in Massachusetts. With a wealth of knowledge and experience in working with young people and their families that is virtually unmatched, Mr. Brace holds a Bachelor of Arts from the United States Naval Academy and a Master of Counseling from Arizona State University.
Oddly it does not mention that he worked at RMA for 13 years
Tim has been with the CEDU Schools for 13 years, serving as Headmaster both at CEDU and Rocky Mountain Academy in north Idaho.
SO. RMA, ASR..
I'm starting to sense a pattern... What was i saying about similar career paths?
He is also a board member of Natsap
" Tim Brace, Aspen Youth Services, California, 3-year term"
But TSW is right. let's stick to the topic in hand. ask your son what kinds of things were talked about in group. were they personal? were there confrontations? how harsh was it?
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To TSW's Question-
I do not support Carlbrook or any teen help program with the exception of Second Nature, which I truly believe is an outstanding program with excellent ownership and staff. (I am open to learning otherwise)
I believe Carlbrook served a purpose for my son and our family. Much of this success was simply due to a fortuitous combination of factors unrelated to the therapeutic structure of Carlbrook. At the time we were connected to the program (9 months) there were some problems related to the newness of the program and too much adherence to stuffing all the round pegs in the square holes.
I don't feel competent to recommend Carlbrook to anyone, since I am not a psychologist. I now am questioning the CEDU model and if the groups were conducted in this manner, there is a strong likelihood for abuse and coercion. This does not HAVE to be the case, but I simply don't know how good the current staff is at conducting proper group therapy.
What bothered me the most? Probably the lack of attention to individual needs and differences. Again-the round pegs thing. My son could have benefitted from some things (like being permitted to train for his sport) that could have completely made his experience different. This may seem like a minor thing, but if you understood his needs, which I hit them over the head with over and over, it was a big factor in his resistance there. It is hard to strike a balance between valuing the parents input (after all, we are the ones who screwed up the raising of these kids in the first place) and holding to the line of "you gave us your kids, now trust us without interfering."
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I am not as educated about the CEDU programs as many of the rest of you. From what Psy has told me, I think there is a potential for damaging confrontation IF the leader is not well-trained and compassionate. I suspect, as with anything else, there are many who can emerge unscathed, and others, like many on this forum, who are scarred for life. I think from what I have read here that there is a serious lack of competent staff at most of these programs. I think Carlbrook was possibly one of the best in getting and keeping good staff, but there was turnover even there. That is an unfortunate part of the model- these programs are in remote places where qualified professionals don't want to spend too many years.
I think there can be some abuse of authority/power outside the groups as well. There is a clear food chain established, and those at the top (including senior management) are put in a position where they can abuse that power to the detriment of those below them. Also, in the guise of "treatment", there can be a lot of arbitrary consequences imposed. Some of this is possibly justified, some is not.
Another problem is that the person most informed about the particular kid- his therapist/advisor- often had the LEAST input as to decisions involving that kid because the advisor was lower in the pecking order of the school. So decisions were made by people with the least day to day contact with the kid and the parents.
One of the problems is that parents have no clear idea what they are really getting into. This may be different now since there is more information available (here and through other parents and sites). It was quite different for me, as a parent, than what we were used to having as far as input and communications with a school our kids attended.
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I am not as educated about the CEDU programs as many of the rest of you. From what Psy has told me, I think there is a potential for damaging confrontation IF the leader is not well-trained and compassionate.
Since the state does not require certifications or qualifications for counselors in these "schools" ... from a strictly from a business perspective, who would you hire?
Think about it. I'm guessing Carlbrook responded to questions about qualifications with something like "years of experience bla bla bla.." or "real world experience" (ie. none at all).
Training? I'm sure TSW can tell you, most counselors are expected to get trained "on the job". Now. Do you have "on the job" training for brain surgeons? No. Do you have "on the job training" for people using questionable (read: unethical) psychological techniques on kids minds for extended periods of time? Yes.
I suspect, as with anything else, there are many who can emerge unscathed, and others, like many on this forum, who are scarred for life. I think from what I have read here that there is a serious lack of competent staff at most of these programs. I think Carlbrook was possibly one of the best in getting and keeping good staff, but there was turnover even there. That is an unfortunate part of the model- these programs are in remote places where qualified professionals don't want to spend too many years.
High turnover rate is very common with many of these programs.
I think there can be some abuse of authority/power outside the groups as well. There is a clear food chain established, and those at the top (including senior management) are put in a position where they can abuse that power to the detriment of those below them. Also, in the guise of "treatment", there can be a lot of arbitrary consequences imposed. Some of this is possibly justified, some is not.But there is no oversight, no due process, and no appeal process. Not even a trial. Often, kids are punished without even being given a good (or any) reason of what they have done. Why? To take them out of their "comfort zone". This is probably why they took your kid's running privileges away. What it actually does? Builds mistrust... Makes kids less respectful of those who would punish them for no reason.... But ultimately... in the end... it teaches kids that they have no power at all over anything of value to them... nothing, and nobody, but the program, that they can turn to for comfort. Ultimately, the kid is expected to view the program itself (and it's staff) as a "higher power", from which all forms of comfort come.
Another problem is that the person most informed about the particular kid- his therapist/advisor- often had the LEAST input as to decisions involving that kid because the advisor was lower in the pecking order of the school.
This is mostly by design.
So decisions were made by people with the least day to day contact with the kid and the parents.
One of the problems is that parents have no clear idea what they are really getting into.
Oh i second that... and so do my parents. "Boarding School with therapeutic aspects"... my ass. It's a program. Ask your son what he was told his "school" was. Was he told it was a "school" or a "program" or an "RTS/RTC"...
This may be different now since there is more information available (here and through other parents and sites). It was quite different for me, as a parent, than what we were used to having as far as input and communications with a school our kids attended.
Hmm. I'm going to send you some letters my parents were sent from staff. They should look eerily familiar. I've annotated the bullshit. Eventually my parents figured a lot of it out on their own... but there was a lot of it that there was no way for them to confirm.
Let me ask you a legal question if I may. Is it slander/libel if the speech/text is sent to a private audience (ie my parents)? In most states, as far as I am aware, the statute of limitations starts ticking from the time it is realized that a crime has been comitted. So... If i could prove (and that's easy) that my parents were lied to, with malicious intent, would i have a case?
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"What is the desire to make a bad thing better? I'm sorry but in mind if that program is broke and busted for a reason then good riddance to it. Lets try not to recreate it and improve on it when the core underlying model is still pretty much the same."
I agree with the analysis in TSW's post above. I guess no one has come up with a better model starting from scratch, and there is still a perceived need for a therapeutic school that provides academics and some emotional growth work. I DO think Carlbrook tried to improve the model, probably in part because the school founders had been at Cascade, and realized what didn't work and what was harmful (one would hope). I am wondering if it was too easy to slip back into some of the failings of the CEDU model, though.
As for staff, I think the founders (hiring committee) were pretty careful. There were some senior people who were excellent- I watched them work with kids and families and also had input from my son and other kids (during and after they were at the program). There were some younger men and women being trained, too. That doesn't bother me as long as they are monitored and have the right attitude towards the work they are doing and the kids they are impacting. My son told me that there were a few crazies there. One man (got fired) actually changed my son's name and wouldn't call him by his "real" name because he thought it sounded juvenile. My son had to answer to a different, although similar, name. There was a female counselor who was into the power-trip. I could tell that the majority of the people who worked at Carlbrook really cared about these kids and wanted to help them in every possible way.
There was more than one nurse, if I'm remembering correctly, and I found the medical staff to be very competent. My son was NOT on any psychiatric meds, but did have a couple of minor illnesses and things while he was at Carlbrook and everything was diagnosed properly and handled well.
His reading was not censored, although he was put on "book bans" at one point so he would talk to people during his free time. I think he wound up not obeying these bans.
CB was pretty selective about the type of kid they would admit. Obviously, some misfits (like my son) slipped through, but the group of 100+ kids was pretty similar in terms of the level of seriousness of the issues. There were a number of prep school kids who had screwed up in enough ways to wind up at Carlbrook, but who would ultimately wind up in college and do pretty well. There were a few kids with serious enough substance issues that they wound up back in drug treatment not too long after leaving Carlbrook.
Psy- A private letter to your parents from the school is probably not a "publication" as required by law to show libel. It IS a writing, and it did adversely impact you, presumably, so it could be actionable as a malicious tort.
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What bothered me the most? Probably the lack of attention to individual needs and differences. Again-the round pegs thing. My son could have benefitted from some things (like being permitted to train for his sport) that could have completely made his experience different. This may seem like a minor thing, but if you understood his needs, which I hit them over the head with over and over, it was a big factor in his resistance there. It is hard to strike a balance between valuing the parents input (after all, we are the ones who screwed up the raising of these kids in the first place) and holding to the line of "you gave us your kids, now trust us without interfering."
It is funny that you raise this issue Charlie because it seems to be the big thing about a lot of places. They have a catch all method which they claim works for every young person. They also have a just trust us mentality. i can not imagine the kind of reaction a regular private school would get if this was the line they gave to concerned parents.
You said they did not censor your sons reading material but put him on book bans. i would say that this is a form of censorship. i could even understand if they said no reading betwen say 5 and 6 but again it is this all or nothing idea which to a kid that is possibly already a challenge is bound to incite rebellion and cause friction. This can give parents the false impression that their kid is more of a problem than they may otherwise be.
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but again it is this all or nothing idea which to a kid that is possibly already a challenge is bound to incite rebellion and cause friction. This can give parents the false impression that their kid is more of a problem than they may otherwise be.
That's the entire point.
Karen. In Carlbrook's admissions contract, did they have a "covenant not to sue" or similar document?
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This does not HAVE to be the case, but I simply don't know how good the current staff is at conducting proper group therapy.
The system and ideology dictates the nature of the personnel. Changing the personnel will not change the system. The underpinnings remain in place. If anything, the personnel will soon be in lock-step with the program. There will be those, however, who are smart enough to get the fuck out of there, like TSW.
I could get a degree in psychology, and decide that I would form my own TBS that would be "different" from all the others, because of my own negative experience in one. I could hire staff I felt to be qualified, and the outcome would still be the same. Why? Because of the role the TBS plays in society. i.e. it is a tool for the re assimilation of children who were believed to have fallen through the cracks. That equals coercion, because there is already a preconceived notion of what these kids are supposed to be, and it is a one-size-fits-all template. Many schools will say they are helping your child become an individual, but in reality, it is the opposite. They enforce conformity. You're sending your kid to a "fixing" factory. That is the role of every TBS.
It's nothing more than the Ministry of Love.
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Karen. I've been thinking about programs... I think the reason most people on fornits hesitate to recommend any school in this industry, even if there are no allegations of abuse is partially for this reason:
Ever read about the Stanford prison experiment? A bunch of normal college students were selected to participate in an experiment... Some would be prisoners, some would be guards. The guards, slowly but surely, began to "assert their authority"... The situation soon became so abusive that the experiment had to be shut down prematurely... and these were normal, peacenik type people before they became guards...
What happens? Power happens. Absolute power, in the hands of a few, quickly tempts people to take advantage of it. That is the entire reason for the system of checks and balances, in our government and the justice system.
Kids, whose parents send them away to program because they see them as troubled kids (manipulators, etc...)... they make the perfect prisoner. The guards, in this case, know full well that they can do whatever they want to the kids, and nobody will believe them since their credibility is next to nil (and systematically destroyed even further due to inevitable bad reports from the program). Since they control the environment, they also control all the means a kid might collect evidence with. All a kid has is his/her word...
So how is it possable to know if this is not one big hoax, perpetrated by a bunch of rebellious, druggie, fucked-up, manipulative, program-failures-with-a-grudge?
Well to answer that question.. let's ask mister interrogator. Mister interrogator goes and interrogates person A, and then he goes and interrogates person C, and then he goes and interrogates person B. The interrogator does not have to be a psychic. he simply has to look for places where their stories line up...
Benchmark used this technique on a large scale with a "dirt list" that they would make everybody write. They never missed anything. Becuase after repeated interrogations where you were handed back your "dirt list" to re-write it (standard procedure), you never knew what you missed. They got everything, every time, using this procedure...
How did they make sure people didn't "fix" their stories in advance? The same way interrogators do. If 5 people know about something, the first person to break gets a lighter punishment... When the dirt lists were handed back again and again, you never knew if somebody broke. What always happened? Somebody always broke. That person got off easy. So what was it in your best interest to do? Rat out friends (for often ridiculous or frivolous offenses(ie. breaking bans))
So what's my point? When you have kids coming out of these schools year after year, and telling the exact same detailed story... It can't possibly be a lie.
The staff in these programs know full well the power that they wield over people. They know they can abuse it. So inevitably, it will happen.
Many (most) of the staff at these programs are recycled from school to school (most often within the same family of school). They have been in the system a long time... Look at politicians. Regardless of their values coming into office... given enough time and temptation... the power will get to them. It's a universal truth: power corrupts.
The kids in these places have nobody to believe them.. and when you have no hope.. nobody to turn to, no friends... you break. The abnormal becomes normal, and what would once be thought of as abuse becomes "emotional growth".. or "the tools i needed to suceed"... Most kids don't realize the abuse that they have been put through, and many go on to become staff... why? Because the higher you get in the levels, The more ruthless you are expected to be in your reporting of others... as a benefit, you are awarded "semi-guard" status... The higher levels get to taste that power.. and just like the staff.. they think what they are doing is "helping" everybody else... in reality, victims simply become victimizers...
I hope that sheds a little light on things for you.
But i digress.. with that little bit of information, there are still questions here that would be nice to have answered first before commenting on this.
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Ok, but I'd like to respond to Psy's post though. I figured here would be appropriate.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=243810#243810 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=243810#243810)
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There were levels, but they were pretty broad. You came in as a "lower school" student. I think you moved to "middle school" after the second or third workshop if you were not on any kind of "program". There was an Upper School, but hardly anyone made it before they graduated. You had more privileges at each level. I don't know a whole lot about it, because my son never made it out of lower school. You could get demoted back if you really screwed up (like getting caught in a big lie or in a relationship with a girl/boy).
Bans- could last for a few days or permanently. Sometimes bans were imposed very arbitrarily. Sometimes they made sense.
By the way, there were no isolation rooms, physical restraints or anything like that. If someone had psychiatric issues or tendency towards violence, they were gone.
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I have to ask, why would anyone want to improve on the model of such a clusterfuck like CEDU? What is the desire to make a bad thing better? I'm sorry but in mind if that program is broke and busted for a reason then good riddance to it. Lets try not to recreate it and improve on it when the core underlying model is still pretty much the same.
Monkey see monkey do! Isn't it obvious yet? Anyone, from kid to director who is exposed to this industry fancies themselves an expert and feels they have enough information to start their own franchise. Afterall, no credentials needed, just an appearance that you are like the rest. It's like showing people a room full of gold, shutting the door and telling them to forget that exists. It's easy money. From referring to running a place, you can do it all with just enough experience to know how it works.
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I disagree- I think Carlbrook really wanted to have an appearance that it was NOT like all the rest. The question in my mind is whether it is different in meaningful ways.
I would not say the senior level kids had "authority" over the newer ones, but I'll check on that.
There can be power without abuse, and there is in many parts of society. You just have to be careful who has the power and how equipped they are to deal with it. It's just like all the fraternity hazing stuff- it can be done without causing problems, or kids can die from alcohol poisoning or other results of the hazing. Be careful who has the power.
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I disagree- I think Carlbrook really wanted to have an appearance that it was NOT like all the rest. The question in my mind is whether it is different in meaningful ways.
I would not say the senior level kids had "authority" over the newer ones, but I'll check on that.
There can be power without abuse, and there is in many parts of society. You just have to be careful who has the power and how equipped they are to deal with it. It's just like all the fraternity hazing stuff- it can be done without causing problems, or kids can die from alcohol poisoning or other results of the hazing. Be careful who has the power.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Frats don't have absolute power.
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Neither did any one person at Carlbrook. Very few individuals ever have "absolute power". However, I don't even think absolute power, whatever that is, necessarily means corruption. It takes an ABUSE of power to have corruption. Built in checks and balances reduce the potential for abuse (speaking generally, not about CB)
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Neither did any one person at Carlbrook. Very few individuals ever have "absolute power".
Carlbrook has the absolute power. You're a smart cookie Karen, you know what absolute power is. Especially if you're an atty.
However, I don't even think absolute power, whatever that is, necessarily means corruption. It takes an ABUSE of power to have corruption. Built in checks and balances reduce the potential for abuse (speaking generally, not about CB)
The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002.
Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely
An observation that a person?s sense of morality lessens as his or her power increases. The statement was made by Lord Acton, a British historian of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
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Carlbrook doesn't have absolute power. A parent can remove their child at any time. You did not pay in advance (paid per month). A kid could refuse to comply with anything. Yes, there would be consequences, but there was no force used. To me ,this is not absolute power. As a spiritual person, I choose to believe that no one can have absolute power over another individual. An institution can not have absolute power.
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Carlbrook doesn't have absolute power. A parent can remove their child at any time. You did not pay in advance (paid per month). A kid could refuse to comply with anything. Yes, there would be consequences, but there was no force used. To me ,this is not absolute power. As a spiritual person, I choose to believe that no one can have absolute power over another individual. An institution can not have absolute power.
I don't give a shit what you "choose to believe". These places have an inordinate amount of control over the kid and family. Ain't no getting around that.
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Carlbrook doesn't have absolute power. A parent can remove their child at any time. You did not pay in advance (paid per month). A kid could refuse to comply with anything. Yes, there would be consequences, but there was no force used. To me ,this is not absolute power. As a spiritual person, I choose to believe that no one can have absolute power over another individual. An institution can not have absolute power.
From the point of view of a kid who is placed there by a parent, and has no other option... yes. Carlbrook has absolute power.
Non compliance meant consequences yes. But this is the same in any state of "absolute power".
I can hold a gun to your head and say "don't do that or i will kill you"... And you can still do that. In that sense... anybody can always refuse to comply with anything... the consequences?
Becuase of the consequences... a person chooses to give power over himself to another... chooses to give him/herself over to the system. Little by little, level by level...
This is normally not such a big deal, becuase by and large in society, there are few instances where consequences conflict with conscience... In Carlbrook/CEDU/Bmark... Consequences more often than not, are handed out for kids following their consciences... Your son refused to rat on people for silly reasons.. He got consequences for it. He was right. Why? Because he refused to compromise what he felt was right.
Why do they do this? Becuase they know the further a kid strays from his own conscience, the less he/she is attached to who he/she is...
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I spoke to him briefly a little while ago.
He said there were three group therapy sessions a week. There was rarely a specific topic. Someone would begin by saying, "There's something I would like to take about." It would go from there.
The more senior levels did have power over the lower levels. I asked if there were abuses of this power and he said, "Of course." He said there was some ordering around of other kids to do certain things or criticizing and meanness.
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Carlbrook doesn't have absolute power. A parent can remove their child at any time. You did not pay in advance (paid per month). A kid could refuse to comply with anything. Yes, there would be consequences, but there was no force used. To me ,this is not absolute power. As a spiritual person, I choose to believe that no one can have absolute power over another individual. An institution can not have absolute power.
Therein lies the problem charly, you simply don't believe that a person or institution can have absolute power over another. Adults who get caught up in cults have the free will to leave but they don't, the cult has absolute power over them. Kids who are sexually abused can tell someone abut the don't because the predator has control of them.
There's so many examples of people or institutions having absolute power over others, if you can't understand that it's even possible you will never get it on this issue. Read up on thought reform I've posted the tactic types on here before but you should go and read up on it. The tactic types of thought reform reads like program 101 and they enable people to have absolute control over others. It's shocking but true.
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Coercive persuasion and thought reform are alternate names for programs of social influence capable of producing substantial behavior and attitude change through the use of coercive tactics, persuasion, and/or interpersonal and group-based influence manipulations (Schein 1961; Lifton 1961). Such programs have also been labeled "brainwashing" (Hunter 1951), a term more often used in the media than in scientific literature. However identified, these programs are distinguishable from other elaborate attempts to influence behavior and attitudes, to socialize, and to accomplish social control. Their distinguishing features are their totalistic qualities (Lifton 1961), the types of influence procedures they employ, and the organization of these procedures into three distinctive subphases of the overall process (Schein 1961; Ofshe and Singer 1986). The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
...
Robert Lifton labeled the extraordinarily high degree of social control characteristic of organizations that operate reform programs as their totalistic quality (Lifton 1961). This concept refers to the mobilization of the entirety of the person's social, and often physical, environment in support of the manipulative effort. Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality:
1. Control of communication
bans, monitored phone calls
2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation
confrontation, propheets (LGAT techniques), countless examples
3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
the silly rules... to quote a staff member at benchmark "the point is not the rules themselves, but whether you will obey them". If you obey rules that make no rational sense... you abandon your will to resist the unreasonable... which becomes reasonable... the kid, given enough time, ends up believing in the "wisdom of the program"
4. Obsessive demands for confession
propheets, groups, ratting out others...
5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless
see number 3
6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
ask your son if they did this
7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
ask your son if this was the case. if a "life story" was requested to be written for instanced... and then criticized/re-interpreted. He should have many examples of this
8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
higher levels... how well do they treat the lower levels... are those who do not aggree with the program's ideology respected?
Why kids who graduate often "blow up":
The surprising aspect of the situationally adaptive response is that the attitudes that develop are unstable. They tend to change dramatically once the person is removed from an environment that has totalistic properties and is organized to support the adaptive attitudes. Once removed from such an environment, the person is able to interact with others who permit and encourage the expression of criticisms and doubts, which were previously stifled because of the normative rules of the reform environment (Schein 1961, p. 163; Lifton 1961, pp. 87-116, 399-415; Ofshe and Singer 1986). This pattern of change, first in one direction and then the other, dramatically highlights the profound importance of social support in the explanation of attitude change and stability. This relationship has for decades been one of the principal interests in the field of social psychology.
(source article (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing8.html))
From:
Coercive Persuasion and Attitude Change
Encyclopedia of Sociology Volume 1, Macmillan Publishing Company, New York
By Richard J. Ofshe, Ph.D.
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I think Carlbrook was more concerned with keeping the kids so the groups weren' t disrupted and everything ran "smoothly". There was a waiting list, so losing the paying customers wasn't as crucial. Since it was fairly new, there was an interest in building up the numbers of grads who moved on to college, other schools etc.
I'll have to ask about not having anything to say in group. I suspect my kid found things to say just to stir things up.
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When new kids came in, they started a new peer group up to a cut-off date. I think there were about 12 to 15 in a peer group. They were Greek letters (Alpha, Beta etc)
The parents I saw ranged from totally buying in to one spouse buying in and the other strongly resisting to both totally befuddled. It was very inconvenient for the staff if the parents were always complaining, interfering or calling. I understood that- the staff worked long hours and had a lot of kids to deal with. I thought everyone was pretty responsive to emails, calls etc.
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I'll have to ask about the bans. I am thinking the answer is no.
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Can the higher level students give bans to the lower level students? My guess is no but Charly will have to confirm that.
I have a few questions for Charly's son:
1. Did other kids break down? If so, how?
2. Did you feel it was wrong to give in to the system? Why?
3. Did staff embarrass people in group, or let people be embarrassed?
4. Were personal issues (sensitive ones) brought out for discussion in group?
5. Were kids ever verbally attacked in group? How common was this?
6. How many of the following did carlbrook do:
1. Control of communication
2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation
3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
4. Obsessive demands for confession
5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless
6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
7. What at Carlbrook made people most upset?
8. Did you feel manipulated? Did others?
9. Would you describe some kids at the school as brainwashed?
10. Do you think the methods used damaged some kids?
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KSA1: did you get my emails? was that exactly like Carlbrook, or was Carlbrook softer?
das1: well they fed us fine
das1: and i dont remember it being that cold
das1: but other than that its pretty much the same
das1: and the structure of the workshop is all the same
KSA1: did they yell at you and force you to make stuff up?
das1: yeah
das1: they didnt force anyone to make anything up
KSA1: it sounds like it is designed to brainwash you- but I thought you liked the workshops
das1: i dont know they were ok
das1: but its like the girl said
das1: if you are cunning and manipulative enough it doesnt get to you
KSA1: like you
das1: because you can play the system and not have your reality screwed with
das1: everyone at carlbrook was weak
das1: i just sat there and let them yell at me
das1: its not just the workshop thats coercive or designed to brainwash you...its the entire school
das1: the whole structure and constitution of the place is designed carefully so that its much easier to go along with it and "buy in" than it is to resist - internally and externally
das1: some of those kids are so fucked up no therapy will be effective
Until I can get more info, I reposted this Im conversation.
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The one thing Carlbrook really did do was work on the parents not to succumb to the pleas to take the kid out. We were told that the kids would manipulate us and would not be comfortable there, and would promise anything to get to leave. It was tough to keep a kid there when he/she was begging to come home or threatening to never speak to the parents again. You got a lot of support for the effort of resisting the pleas.
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KSA1: did you get my emails? was that exactly like Carlbrook, or was Carlbrook softer?
das1: well they fed us fine
das1: and i dont remember it being that cold
das1: but other than that its pretty much the same
das1: and the structure of the workshop is all the same
KSA1: did they yell at you and force you to make stuff up?
das1: yeah
das1: they didnt force anyone to make anything up
KSA1: it sounds like it is designed to brainwash you- but I thought you liked the workshops
das1: i dont know they were ok
das1: but its like the girl said
das1: if you are cunning and manipulative enough it doesnt get to you
KSA1: like you
das1: because you can play the system and not have your reality screwed with
das1: everyone at carlbrook was weak
das1: i just sat there and let them yell at me
das1: its not just the workshop thats coercive or designed to brainwash you...its the entire school
das1: the whole structure and constitution of the place is designed carefully so that its much easier to go along with it and "buy in" than it is to resist - internally and externally
das1: some of those kids are so fucked up no therapy will be effective
Until I can get more info, I reposted this Im conversation.
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The one thing Carlbrook really did do was work on the parents not to succumb to the pleas to take the kid out. We were told that the kids would manipulate us and would not be comfortable there, and would promise anything to get to leave. It was tough to keep a kid there when he/she was begging to come home or threatening to never speak to the parents again. You got a lot of support for the effort of resisting the pleas.
That seems like a conflict of interest....
They get money based on how long the kid is in program
And if they were abusing kids this "support" would be more to their advantage in covering their hands.
Did you ever hear from parents what the other kids were saying to leave?
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hanzo- the huge majority of kids who finish (which is most of the kids that start) finish in the 14-15 months originally planned. There really is no push to keep kids longer. I think there is a clear recognition by senior management (based on their own history at program) that the longer a kid is there the more potential there is for "unrest". There appears to be an optimum time where a "good" program kid will really buy in and leave with warm, fuzzy feelings and that has been pegged at 14-15 months. Occasionally a kid will stay past program "graduation" if they have one quarter or semester of high school left, but that is by special permission and is actually not encouraged.
Kids who leave the program early usually have turned 18 and walk, have been too difficult (like my son) or are pulled because the parents disagree with something that is going on (meds management etc)
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hanzo- the huge majority of kids who finish (which is most of the kids that start) finish in the 14-15 months originally planned. There really is no push to keep kids longer. I think there is a clear recognition by senior management (based on their own history at program) that the longer a kid is there the more potential there is for "unrest". There appears to be an optimum time where a "good" program kid will really buy in and leave with warm, fuzzy feelings and that has been pegged at 14-15 months. Occasionally a kid will stay past program "graduation" if they have one quarter or semester of high school left, but that is by special permission and is actually not encouraged.
Kids who leave the program early usually have turned 18 and walk, have been too difficult (like my son) or are pulled because the parents disagree with something that is going on (meds management etc)
Exactly, if a kid's "begging" went unchallenged by the program I doubt many would remain the 14-15 months. My question is why would the kids be begging? What would make them leave after turning 18? What is the nature of this "support" the program would give to parents? I don't get why this isn't being questioned by most parents.....
I remember psy bring up what programs would tell parents if their kid(18?) walked out of the program, abandon them. Was this the case at Carlbrook?
It wouldn't surprise me as this advise seems to be the bedrock of tough-love think
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Why would the kids be begging to leave? Come on- What teen wants to be at a school where they don't have a cell phone, car, internet, girlfriend or boyfriend, malls, jeans, organized sports etc? It's not a fun place compared to what they had at home. They have to follow rules and there are consequences when they do not. Leaving the entire issue of whether the therapeutic model is abusive, it is still a place that has rules and enforces consequences. This wasn't happening at home for these kids. It was interesting that a lot of the girls found it a safe, nurturing place and many of the boys felt like they were in prison.
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Why would the kids be begging to leave? Come on- What teen wants to be at a school where they don't have a cell phone, car, internet, girlfriend or boyfriend, malls, jeans, organized sports etc? It's not a fun place compared to what they had at home. They have to follow rules and there are consequences when they do not. Leaving the entire issue of whether the therapeutic model is abusive, it is still a place that has rules and enforces consequences. This wasn't happening at home for these kids. It was interesting that a lot of the girls found it a safe, nurturing place and many of the boys felt like they were in prison.
You make a valid point. But was it necessary to remove many of these things to help the kids (eg: internet, cell phone, letters to girlfriends, organized sports...)
You might also want to ask your son if kids were decieved about rules by the school?
Were there things you felt were misrepresented to you regarding the type of therapy when you sent your son to Carlbrook? What types of services did they claim to provide? What did they?
If anything... i would recommend sending the Carlbrook<--->karen correspondance to your son and seeing if there are any innacuracies that he could point out.
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http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
II. Information Control
1. Use of deception
a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
c. Outright lying
2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged
a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members so busy they don?t have time to think
3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what
4. Spying on other members is encouraged
a. Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control
b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership
5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda
a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources
6. Unethical use of confession
a. Information about "sins" used to abolish identity boundaries
b. Past "sins" used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution
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Anne- that adds nothing to this discussion.
Psy- Nothing was really mis-represented to us regarding the therapy. We were given a pretty good summary of what would occur in terms of the number of groups per week and the amount of time he would spend with his therapist (called an Advisor). There wasn't a whole lot of written correspondence back and forth. While my son was there we communicated by email and phone. Before he was there we visited Carlbrook, met with students and staff, interviewed and were interviewed ourselves. It was not at all certain that Carlbrook would accept our son. He was very borderline.
I believe the removal of all the creature comforts mentioned was a good thing. The things that DID work about the place would not have worked if cell phones, etc had been available to the kids. There were no huge complaints about all that from the kids. There was plenty to do and the days were pretty full, except for the weekends which could get boring.
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I'm with Anne on this. It seems quite relevant to me.
I spoke to him briefly a little while ago.
He said there were three group therapy sessions a week. There was rarely a specific topic. Someone would begin by saying, "There's something I would like to take about." It would go from there.
and from waaaay back in the thread...
I think twice a week. Maybe 3 times. The groups were coed and I seem to recall that you could "call" someone to be in your group. So-if you wanted to confront someone or yell at them, you requested a group with them. This was awhile ago, but I think that's how it worked. Then the kid who was "invited" got to sit there and get shit.
There were some good staff who led better groups than others. My son particularly objected to one senior staff- he hated me and my son and took it out on my son.
Uh, Okay, RAP. Definitely.
Complete with "Rap request" ("calling" someone.) and "indictments" (confrontations). TSW addressed this, too. It's the CEDU model, fo' sho'.
I think I even remember you (charly) writing something about having to switch chairs to yell at someone in group, but I can't find it in this thread. Maybe I'm mistaking your post for someone else's.
Question 1: Were there workshops/propheets there? I've read through the thread, but I might have overlooked it. If so, has your son told you anything about them?
Question 2: Re: bioenergetics/running your anger. Did your son ever talk about having to scream at the ground? Hit things like cushions? This is yet another thing that I may have overlooked on this thread, but I haven't found anything addressing it so far.
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This sounds like being stuck in a 24hr high school.....
Were these sessions common, and how bad did they get?
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You think this sounds like high school?
How so?
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Anne- that adds nothing to this discussion.
Psy- Nothing was really mis-represented to us regarding the therapy. We were given a pretty good summary of what would occur in terms of the number of groups per week and the amount of time he would spend with his therapist (called an Advisor).
This is significant. Were the "Advisors" licenced? My guess is no. I would guess that carlbrook offers "therapy" on an individual basis (ie. special requests), and "emotional growth" to a group. What's the difference? Legality. In order to call yourself a "therapist"/"psychologist" you have to be licenced in order to do it. Many of these schools are as legalistic as possable about what services they provide... in an attempt to maximize their marketing value to parents... while still keeping within the technical boundaries of the law.
Is it possable the school referred to their advisers/counselors as therapists to you... perhaps.. but most definately not publicly. Thewebsite (http://http://www.carlbrook.org/) makes it look like a school almost 100%... Is this sort of thing... honest... to represent a school as one thing, and provide another?
That is my problem with "emotional growth" or "personal development"... if it isn't therapy... what is it?
There wasn't a whole lot of written correspondence back and forth. While my son was there we communicated by email and phone. Before he was there we visited Carlbrook, met with students and staff, interviewed and were interviewed ourselves. It was not at all certain that Carlbrook would accept our son. He was very borderline.
I believe the removal of all the creature comforts mentioned was a good thing. The things that DID work about the place would not have worked if cell phones, etc had been available to the kids. There were no huge complaints about all that from the kids.
Not even from your son? What did he complain about then... Surely the school must have had something in mind when the prepped you for "manipulation".
Ok... what things DID work in the place.. in your opinion, that couldn't have worked without such restrictions?
There was plenty to do and the days were pretty full, except for the weekends which could get boring.
They didn't have "weekend activities"?
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Even if there were licensed therapists, psy, there is always the possibility that they were kept "out of the loop" from the rest of the program, which is common. The fornits user formerCEDUtherapist has talked about that in the past. He/she had NO idea about what went on there.
However, I am speculating with Carlbrook, since I wasn't there. Although, IMO, it seems a lot like a CEDU clone to me, which is something I have always maintained.
Ok... what things DID work in the place.. in your opinion, that couldn't have worked without such restrictions?
That's my question as well. I know Karen said earlier in this thread that things helped her son despite the program, so it makes me wonder if what worked was being inappropriately attributed to the program to begin with.
Oh wait, here it is:
I believe Carlbrook served a purpose for my son and our family. Much of this success was simply due to a fortuitous combination of factors unrelated to the therapeutic structure of Carlbrook.
Now, to me, this doesn't make sense at all. If it wasn't Carlbrook, then what was it, and why are you crediting Carlbrook for it, Karen?
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You think this sounds like high school?
How so?
Intense peer pressure, forced in this case...
Being judged by a group of you peers, again it's forced, manufactured, and the dynamic is taken to extremes.
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Even if there were licensed therapists, psy, there is always the possibility that they were kept "out of the loop" from the rest of the program, which is common. The fornits user formerCEDUtherapist has talked about that in the past. He/she had NO idea about what went on there.
Same where i was. Once a week at the shrink's office... Although i have my doubts as to how much he actually knew... He had to know.... But i said the same thing about my parents and it was wrong... So maybe he was just an incredibly stupid therapist.
Asshole wrote a horrendous review of me. It was not consistent with previous evaluations or those taken after Benchmark... which makes me think the program had a lot of input into what he wrote. (He did communicate with the program a lot (they did give him reviews)).
Fucker told my parents that on my own I would end up in the bath-houses of San-Fransisco... And i didn't even have sex in program!... and only a few times (1female, 1 male) before that. I hope he gets hit by a truck or something... unless he was ignorant of course... in which case I hope Jayne (program director) gets hit by a truck.... well I wish that anyway...
What the program told him? I will never know.
I believe Carlbrook served a purpose for my son and our family. Much of this success was simply due to a fortuitous combination of factors unrelated to the therapeutic structure of Carlbrook.
Now, to me, this doesn't make sense at all. If it wasn't Carlbrook, then what was it, and why are you crediting Carlbrook for it, Karen?
A piece of paper i'm guessing... You mentioned before, Karen that his improvement was mainly due to his introspection during his solitary confinement later on.
enough commentary... i don't want to add any more questions before you get the previous ones answered anyway.
Night night.
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whoops... double post..
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I know this is a fine distinction, but I am not crediting the Carlbrook PROGRAM with helping my son. I am crediting his time away from home (and 2N wilderness), the opportunity to think, write and reflect on where he wanted to go with his life and how he had gotten off track, the opportunity to live in a close community and make close friends without the relationships being based on competition, social factors or thrill-seeking, and a good therapist.
The therapists were degreed and many were licensed. My son's was a licensed psychologist and he was very involved with the kids day in and day out. All the advisors were.
Our son could write to us (he didn't usually because he was mad at us), he could ask for an email to be sent to us, he could call us every other week and his therapist was very good about conveying messages to us about what he wanted us to send or what he wanted to tell us (our son conveyed that this was done in every instance). Parents could send treats for the group for a birthday or holiday.
It IS CEDU based- no question about that. However, it sounds to me like a lot of the CEDU workshops were softened. They slept, were well fed, and overall I don't think they were as confrontational.
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Re: the moving of seats in the groups. It wasn't just for yelling at someone. It was for addressing them at all. In the family groups we had, it a kid wanted to address their parent, they moved across the circle.
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The therapists were degreed and many were licensed. My son's was a licensed psychologist and he was very involved with the kids day in and day out. All the advisors were.
Did you personally confirm this, or take their word for it? HLA claimed the same, but when we checked we found that only one was licensed, and the majority of the teachers weren't certified.
Our son could write to us (he didn't usually because he was mad at us), he could ask for an email to be sent to us, he could call us every other week
Once every two weeks? Blanket policy? How do you "rebuild a relationship/trust" during two brief phone calls per month? Were you ok with this? Fundamentally, legally, how does a 'boarding school' get away with limiting contact between kid and parent without a court order? Because the parent cooperates with their requirement. And why would the parent agree to this? What could possibly be gained, except that kids have less opportunity to report what's actually going on.
Parents could send treats for the group for a birthday or holiday.
How sweet and thoughtful. Are you sure the kids actually received them? I'm really surprised. What if a wayward parent spiked the brownies? Seems they'd have some kind of policy against that.
It IS CEDU based- no question about that. However, it sounds to me like a lot of the CEDU workshops were softened. They slept, were well fed, and overall I don't think they were as confrontational.
Based on...?
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I am basing the info on the workshops from the IM conversation I already posted that I had with my son. Also, from what other kids have told me. It doesn't sound quite as confrontational as much of the CEDU format, but I will ask more questions.
Yes, the food got to the kids. I was thanked by several when we sent stuff and my son reported on other stuff received.
The teachers were degreed and had certificates. Some were actually quite good and the course offerings were good- Honors, AP etc.
I think phone calls moved to once a week after a certain period of time. Our son refused some of the calls anyway, so it wasn't really an issue at first. There are 4 family workshops a year which provide an opportunity to work on fixing the relationships.
I found some of my Carlbrook files. You sign an Arbitration Agreement, which means you can not file a lawsuit, but agree to settle any disputes through Arbitration. This is not that unusual in a contract.
I found a letter my son wrote to a friend (out of standard, of course). He said, "This place is like a prison with no walls because running away will just get you sent to a worse place, similar to a real prison. There are so many ridiculous rules that are driving me crazy and I don't think I can handle it much longer. I'm trying to fake it as much as I can but it's not working out too well for me. I'm different than I used to be though by a long shot. I don't want to do drugs or drive cars or "fuck bitches" anymore if you know what I'm saying. All I want to do is be somewhere that I can slow down and workout and run all the time and be able to have general freedoms like talking to my friends. I'm reading a lot because it's one of the only things to do around here besides play chess and work on your "emotional growth". To top it off, I can't run, at least not on my own terms. I am allowed to run on campus, which is much smaller than XXXX, with a partner. The fastest guy here is as fast as XXX(slowest, fattest friend they had), so that doesn't exactly work out for me. Of course I thought I could get around that rule, so one day I took off running down the road and I got in a lot of trouble. I really miss XXXX(school) and all my friends there. I took for granted all the freedom I had there. I did whatever the hell I wanted to do, and the worst part is, if I hadn't gotten caught up in stupid stuff, which eventually led to my downfall, I might still be there. That whole thing really stresses me out when I'm here and I can't have all my own clothes, hygiene products or pictures. I'm making straight A s in school with little effort, which is nice and relaxing, but for some reason I'm in a stage where I want to learn and be challenged. Just think of my ass sitting here in the middle of nowhere being drilled every day for "being negative" and "not being committed to my emotional growth". You have it so good. Don't screw it up like I did."
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I am basing the info on the workshops from the IM conversation I already posted that I had with my son. Also, from what other kids have told me. It doesn't sound quite as confrontational as much of the CEDU format, but I will ask more questions.
I thought your son said it was, but that he just let it roll off. Again, he's was a little older than a lot of kids who haven't developed those suvival skills yet.
The teachers were degreed and had certificates. Some were actually quite good and the course offerings were good- Honors, AP etc.
What I was really after was, did you confirm this? Were the teachers certified and counselors licensed?
There are 4 family workshops a year which provide an opportunity to work on fixing the relationships.
What did you personally find to be useful?
I found some of my Carlbrook files. You sign an Arbitration Agreement, which means you can not file a lawsuit, but agree to settle any disputes through Arbitration. This is not that unusual in a contract.
Isn't it also true that your contract becomes null and void if the facility breeches the contract?
I found a letter my son wrote to a friend (out of standard, of course). He said, "This place is like a prison with no walls because running away will just get you sent to a worse place, similar to a real prison.
How can such an environment be therapeutic in any sense of the word?
There are so many ridiculous rules that are driving me crazy and I don't think I can handle it much longer. I'm trying to fake it as much as I can but it's not working out too well for me. I'm different than I used to be though by a long shot. I don't want to do drugs or drive cars or "fuck bitches" anymore if you know what I'm saying. All I want to do is be somewhere that I can slow down and workout and run all the time and be able to have general freedoms like talking to my friends. I'm reading a lot because it's one of the only things to do around here besides play chess and work on your "emotional growth". To top it off, I can't run, at least not on my own terms. I am allowed to run on campus, which is much smaller than XXXX, with a partner. The fastest guy here is as fast as XXX(slowest, fattest friend they had), so that doesn't exactly work out for me. Of course I thought I could get around that rule, so one day I took off running down the road and I got in a lot of trouble.
The consequence? Why would they discourage physical activity? Are endorphins consider drugs there? Aren't they aware that physical activity is one of the best ways for young men to work off frustration? Or is that the point? Keep them frustrated with irrational rules and no way to relased the coarsing adreneline?
I really miss XXXX(school) and all my friends there. I took for granted all the freedom I had there. I did whatever the hell I wanted to do, and the worst part is, if I hadn't gotten caught up in stupid stuff, which eventually led to my downfall, I might still be there. That whole thing really stresses me out when I'm here and I can't have all my own clothes, hygiene products or pictures.
Nothing personal. No clothes, hygiene products, pictures. Again, what exactly is the 'therapeutic' value of this? Even prisoners are allowed personal effects. Another of the CEDU methods. Same at HLA. No outside toiletries, like what, the parents were going to sneak drugs to their kids in the shampoo? No, HLA made a huge profit selling these items at twice the retail price.
I'm making straight A s in school with little effort, which is nice and relaxing, but for some reason I'm in a stage where I want to learn and be challenged. Just think of my ass sitting here in the middle of nowhere being drilled every day for "being negative" and "not being committed to my emotional growth". You have it so good. Don't screw it up like I did."
How would you or your son describe "Emotional Growth"? What exactly does that mean to you?
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I found some of my Carlbrook files. You sign an Arbitration Agreement, which means you can not file a lawsuit, but agree to settle any disputes through Arbitration. This is not that unusual in a contract.
Isn't it also true that your contract becomes null and void if the facility breeches the contract?
If it's anything like Benchmark they include a severability clause ( example: If any provision or provisions of this Agreement shall be held to be invalid, illegal, unenforceable or in conflict with the law of any jurisdiction, the validity, legality and enforceability of the remaining provisions shall not in any way be affected or impaired thereby.)... so my guess is no.
Is the Arbitration third party? is the arbitration party specified?
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Arbitration was AAA in VA. I assume you pick the arbitrator by AAA rules. I didn'ts see a Severability clause, but I might be missing some paperwork.
I didn't check on the degrees or certifications, but my son had enough interaction with the academic faculty to know where they have taught before and where they went to school. I don't believe this school lied about the credentials of the staff.
Physical activity wasn't discouraged. They had PE and athletic fields, basketball court etc. One gripe I had was playing lacrosse without protective equipment. There were several injuries to kids. Like Deb said, take all that testosterone and give the kids sticks to hit each other with! What was discouraged was my son running down the road to the extent that he needed to. He made all sorts of "proposals", which is what you had to do if you wanted something special. All of them were shot down. He was willing to get up at 6am to run, but needed to leave campus to do it so he could cover some distance.
I thought the parent workshops were good. We learned a lot more about the staff and got to meet them. We met other parents and shared our stories. We met the other kids. The family groups were the best part, although painful. They had three families and two therapists and a higher-level student. The kids could confront their parents, share things or discuss whatever they wanted to. It was pretty tough and emotional. The parents also got to see student panels who were able to answer questions that we had about the school and how these kids (on the panel) viewed things. Yes, I realize the kids were "picked". My son wasn't even allowed to talk to parents who visited the campus (except on parents' weekends when we were all there). The last visit we went to we got to really spend some time with the academic faculty, who had been sort of hidden from view until then.
Emotional growth- that's a good question. It is a stupid-sounding phrase. To me it meant my son could learn to manage himself in schools, the community and family. I did NOT expect him to become someone different. He hasn't. He still struggles with some of the same issues as before CB. He did manage to mature enough to get himself through high school and onto college, though. One big thing he learned was that it was OK to share some of his feelings. He had gone to a boys' school through 8th grade, and you did NOT show any weakness. You expressed sentiments towards your friends such as "You suck," but never any praise. You had to be tough at all costs. However creepy some of the staff previously mentioned might have been in terms of the touchy-feely stuff, it did help my son let out some pain and tears. That never happened in home-town therapy and it really needed to.
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Arbitration was AAA in VA. I assume you pick the arbitrator by AAA rules. I didn'ts see a Severability clause, but I might be missing some paperwork.
I didn't check on the degrees or certifications, but my son had enough interaction with the academic faculty to know where they have taught before and where they went to school. I don't believe this school lied about the credentials of the staff.
Well. My parents and I were told that the main educational staff member (the only one) at Bmark was working on her PHD. I find out later that she didn't even have a BA!
I'm more interested in the qualifications of the "advisers"/"counselors" however... were they licensed therapists? The group facilitators?
He made all sorts of "proposals", which is what you had to do if you wanted something special.
CEDU... cedu cedu cedu... "proposals"... funny. we had the exact same thing at Bmark... It was a joke really... they all got shot down as well. It helped build a healthy sense of cynicism... that attempting to change things was futile. Valuable lessons for the modern workplace... and life in general!
All of them were shot down. He was willing to get up at 6am to run, but needed to leave campus to do it so he could cover some distance.
I thought the parent workshops were good. We learned a lot more about the staff and got to meet them. We met other parents and shared our stories. We met the other kids. The family groups were the best part, although painful. They had three families and two therapists and a higher-level student. The kids could confront their parents, share things or discuss whatever they wanted to. It was pretty tough and emotional. The parents also got to see student panels who were able to answer questions that we had about the school and how these kids (on the panel) viewed things. Yes, I realize the kids were "picked". My son wasn't even allowed to talk to parents who visited the campus (except on parents' weekends when we were all there).
That should tell you a lot... How many others weren't allowed to talk to the parents.
The last visit we went to we got to really spend some time with the academic faculty, who had been sort of hidden from view until then.
Emotional growth- that's a good question. It is a stupid-sounding phrase. To me it meant my son could learn to manage himself in schools, the community and family. I did NOT expect him to become someone different. He hasn't. He still struggles with some of the same issues as before CB. He did manage to mature enough to get himself through high school and onto college, though. One big thing he learned was that it was OK to share some of his feelings. He had gone to a boys' school through 8th grade, and you did NOT show any weakness. You expressed sentiments towards your friends such as "You suck," but never any praise. You had to be tough at all costs. However creepy some of the staff previously mentioned might have been in terms of the touchy-feely stuff, it did help my son let out some pain and tears. That never happened in home-town therapy and it really needed to.
Question? If groups are places of confrontation etc... Do you think that encourages kids to be open about their feelings? Do you think forcing them to be open about things is good? Won't that backfire in the long run? May they only learn how to "fake it"... afraid of what will happen if they are truthful?
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If it's anything like Benchmark they include a severability clause ( example: If any provision or provisions of this Agreement shall be held to be invalid, illegal, unenforceable or in conflict with the law of any jurisdiction, the validity, legality and enforceability of the remaining provisions shall not in any way be affected or impaired thereby.)... so my guess is no.
Anything's possible, but I don't think you'd have a chance of defending a severability clause if you commit fraud and violate a contract on multiple counts. No one can sign away their rights to sue in the event of fraud. I think it would just be a matter of showing they deceived and defrauded the consumer.
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The credentials are on the website and I have the utmost confidence that they are all accurate and properly represented. This is not a criticism that can be made about this place. The founders made every attempt to gather what they believed were the most highly credentialed and capable staff to be found. I think you should accept that and given that premise, is it STILL inherently harmful? I think this place is the best out there (maybe Oakley is OK), so we can take it from there. Best out there might be still inherently bad and abusive......
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The credentials are on the website and I have the utmost confidence that they are all accurate and properly represented. This is not a criticism that can be made about this place. The founders made every attempt to gather what they believed were the most highly credentialed and capable staff to be found. I think you should accept that and given that premise, is it STILL inherently harmful? I think this place is the best out there (maybe Oakley is OK), so we can take it from there. Best out there might be still inherently bad and abusive......
Congratulations. You consider Carlbrook the best of the worst kind of treament. Yep, exactly what I'd want for my kid.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
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The credentials are on the website and I have the utmost confidence that they are all accurate and properly represented. This is not a criticism that can be made about this place. The founders made every attempt to gather what they believed were the most highly credentialed and capable staff to be found. I think you should accept that and given that premise, is it STILL inherently harmful? I think this place is the best out there (maybe Oakley is OK), so we can take it from there. Best out there might be still inherently bad and abusive......
Karen,
I accept no claims a program makes without question. For what it's worth.
2 out of 24 are licensed- in red.
They have no Certified Substance Abuse Counselors
Virginia Dept of Health Professionals
I can't even find a license on the consulting psychologist
https://secure01.virginiainteractive.or ... blicdb.cgi (https://secure01.virginiainteractive.org/dhp/cgi-bin/search_publicdb.cgi)
Glenn F. Bender, Ph.D.
Dean of Academics
With a Bachelor of Arts from Kenyon College and a Master of Arts and Doctorate in Philosophy and Educational Policy Studies from the University of Wisconsin, Dr. Bender brings extensive academic and administrative experience to the Board of Regents. During a 25 year career in secondary and higher education, he has served as Dean of Academics and Dean of Admissions at the Academy at Swift River in Massachusetts, Director of Academics at Cascade School in California, Director of Admissions at Blue Ridge School in Virginia, and Professor of Philosophy at the University of Southwestern Louisiana.
Timothy Brace, M.C.
Headmaster
Mr. Brace has truly inspired a generation of students through his vision, innovation and educational leadership. During his distinguished career over the past 25 years, he has served as Headmaster or Executive Director at several secondary boarding schools, including Mt. Bachelor Academy in Oregon and the Academy at Swift River in Massachusetts. With a wealth of knowledge and experience in working with young people and their families that is virtually unmatched, Mr. Brace holds a Bachelor of Arts from the United States Naval Academy and a Master of Counseling from Arizona State University.
Andrew Coe, M.S.
Dean of Student Life
Mr. Coe, who has a long history of experience working with adolescents and families, holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Furman University and a Master of Science in Marriage and Family Therapy from the University of Kentucky. His work experience includes individual and group counseling as well as supervisory positions at several secondary schools and Presbyterian College. Most recently, Mr. Coe served as the Assistant Director of Counseling at the Academy at Swift River, where he was responsible for the oversight, development and supervision of both students and counselors.
Kelly Dunbar, B.A.
Dean of Admissions
With almost 20 years of experience working with adolescents, families, and educational consultants, Ms. Dunbar brings a wide range of knowledge and expertise to the Carlbrook admissions faculty. Over the course of her career, Ms. Dunbar worked for seven years in counseling, two years in secondary school admissions, and three years in counseling supervision. Ms. Dunbar holds a Bachelor?s degree in Psychology from Simpson College and has taken graduate courses in Marriage and Family Therapy at National University.
Jonathan Gurney, M.S.W., A.C.S.W.
Dean of Alumni and Transition Services
Mr. Gurney, who received his Bachelor of Arts and Master of Social Work degrees from Indiana University, has over 20 years experience working with children and their families. As a Licensed Clinical Social Worker he worked as an Outpatient Family Therapist before serving as the Program Director of a dual inpatient/outpatient adolescent program during his tenure at the Charter Behavioral Health organization. Most recently, Mr. Gurney served as Clinical Director of a licensed wilderness program for adolescents in the Pacific Northwest, where he was responsible for oversight of all clinical services.
Matthew Lovell, M.A., L.M.F.T
Dean of Advising
Mr. Lovell received his Bachelor of Arts in Rhetoric from the University of California at Berkeley, and his Master of Arts in Clinical Psychology from John F. Kennedy University. A Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Adjunct Professor at National University, Mr. Lovell has taught courses in child development and family therapy and has nearly 20 years of clinical counseling experience both in the public and private sectors. His former positions include Program Supervisor at Franklin House, Mental Health Specialist at Herrick Hospital, Program Director at Cascade School, and private practice Family Therapist.
R. Grant Price, M.A.
Dean of Faculty
After receiving his Bachelor of Arts degree from the University of South Carolina, Mr. Price earned his Master of Arts degree from California State University, focusing on the study and analysis of various educational models. Prior to Carlbrook, Mr. Price worked as a Certified Educational Consultant in Columbia, SC, where he evaluated hundreds of educational programs, conducted individual student evaluations and assessments, and identified appropriate educational environments for students. He is a former member of the Independent Educational Consultants Association.
Amy R. McCormick, M.S.W., L.C.S.W
Assistant Dean of Advising
A Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Ms. McCormick graduated magna cum laude with her Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and Master of Social Work degrees from the University of Maine. Prior to to joining the Carlbrook team, Ms. McCormick served as a Residence Director at the University of Maine and as a Program Manager at Shaw House, a residential facility for adolescents.
Angela Caine, M.S.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Caine received her Bachelor of Social Science in Psychology from Indiana University and her Master of Science in Social Work from the University of Louisville, where she was selected for the National Dean?s List. She has several years of experience in individual, group and family counseling, most recently worked as a Therapist for Wellstone Regional Hospital and LifeSpring Mental Health Services in southern Indiana.
Julie Dyer, M.S.
Advisor
Ms. Dyer holds both a Bachelor of Science degree in Psychology from Florida Atlantic University and a Master of Science degree in Clinical Psychology from Radford University. She has worked as an adolescent therapist for several years, first with young females at Tekoa Residential Treatment Center and later as a substance abuse counselor at the Division of Addiction Services in Richmond.
Bridget Gitthens, M.A.
Advisor
Mrs. Gitthens holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and a Master of Arts in Marriage and Family Therapy from Appalachian State University. During her years of counseling experience she has served both individuals and families in the areas of substance abuse, domestic violence and sexual assault. Her recent work experience includes positions at OASIS and Kaiser Permanente.
Trevor Grimes, M.A.
Advisor
Mr. Grimes received his Bachelor of Arts in Sociology from the State University of New York at Geneseo and his Master of Arts in Social Work from the State University of New York at Stony Brook. His counseling experience includes work in educational and clinical settings, including the Lindenhurst School District (NY) and the Dept. of Family Medicine at Stony Brook University Hospital.
Brandy Litwin, M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Litwin received both her Bachelor of Science in Psychology and her Master of Social Work degree from Western Michigan University. She possesses counseling experience with both adolescent and adult populations, having been a counseling supervisor for an adult foster care home as well as a high school counselor. Most recently she served as a school social worker at Harbor Creek School in Michigan.
Jen McArthur, M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. McArthur, who holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from Warren Wilson College and a Master of Social Work from Brigham Young University, has worked with adolescents for several years, including at-risk youth and socio-economically challenged populations. Her experience includes counseling positions with Wasatch Mental Health, Trend Community Mental Health, and Alldredge Academy.
Johan Madson, M.Ed.
Advisor
With a Bachelor of Arts from Oberlin College and a Master of Education in Human Development Counseling from Vanderbilt University, Mr. Madson?s experience includes several school counseling positions in Tennessee and North Carolina (in both public and private settings). Most recently he was employed by the Office of Residence Life at Portland State University in Oregon.
Sally Martin, M.S.W.
Advisor
Mrs. Martin received her Bachelor of Social Work from James Madison University and her Master of Social Work from Virginia Commonwealth University. Mrs. Martin has worked her entire career with adolescents experiencing emotional and/or behavioral difficulties, whether as a Residential Counselor at Seneca in California, a Child and Family Counselor at Devereaux in Arizona, or as Assistant Clinical Director at Phoenix Outdoor in North Carolina.
Daniel Perry, M.A., L.L.P.C.
Advisor
Mr. Perry holds a Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice from Lake Superior State University in Michigan and a Master of Arts in Counseling from Central Michigan University. He has worked with adolescents for several years in both residential and private practice settings, and was previously the director of a day-treatment program for adolescents with substance abuse problems.
Mindi Perry, M.S.W., L.M.S.W.
Advisor
Mrs. Perry earned a Bachelor of Science in Sociology from Lake Superior State University and a Master of Social Work from Grand Valley State University. With extensive experience in individual and family counseling, she has held a private practice specializing in children and adolescents, worked with Child and Family Services and Community Mental Health of Northeast Michigan, and most recently was a behavioral health consultant at Alcona Health Center.
Denise Prendergast, M.S.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Prendergast earned a Bachelor of Science in Psychology at Michigan State University and a Masters of Science in the School of Social Work at Columbia University. She most recently served as a volunteer in the Peace Corps in Botswana where she counseled those infected and affected with HIV/AIDS. Prior to that Ms. Prendergast worked extensively with children and adolescents in both residential and outpatient settings and was a counseling supervisor at the San Diego Center for Children.
Natalie Sisson, M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Sisson received her Bachelor of Science in Social Work from Illinois State University and later graduated cum laude with a Master of Social Work from the University of Georgia. A member of the National Association of Social Workers, she has previously worked with adolescents as a residential counselor at Chestnut Health Systems and most recently as a therapist at Peace Place.
Kathianne Smith, M.S.W., L.C.S.W.
Advisor
Mrs. Smith earned a Bachelor of Science from Barat College and a Masters in Social Work from the University of Illinois. She has over 20 years experience in the field and has worked with adolescents and families in both outpatient and inpatient settings. Certified in the Commonwealth of Virginia as an expert witness, Mrs. Smith has worked in private practice and holds over 12 years post-license experience.
Nathan Webber, B.A., M.A. candidate
Advisor
Mr. Webber holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from the University of Toledo and is a candidate for a Master of Arts in Professional Counseling from Argosy University. He has worked with adolescents for several years, first as a Counselor at Three Springs and then as a Therapist at Cumberland Mental Health. A member of the National Guard, he completed a tour of duty in Iraq in 2003.
Alicia Woodworth, M.S., L.P.C.
Advisor
A Licensed Professional Counselor, Ms. Woodworth earned a Bachelor of Arts in Communication from Western Michigan University and a Master of Science in Clinical Counseling Psychology from Francis Marion University. For the past several years she has worked with adolescents as a Clinical Counselor at Circle Park Behavioral Health Services, conducting individual, group and family sessions.
Frank A. Chesno, Ph.D.
Consulting Psychologist
Dr. Chesno, a licensed clinical psychologist with almost 30 years experience working with families, earned his doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Georgia, with pre-doctoral training completed at the College of William and Mary. He is a member of the American Psychological Association and has served as president of the South Carolina Academy of Professional Psychologists. Currently, Dr. Chesno serves as Director of Behavioral Medicine Services at Baptist Medical Center.
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At the time we had to make a decision, Anne, I believed this was the best option for our son. In fact, it was. Not everyone came out of the program and did well, but my son has. I guess in the case of this kid and several others I can discuss, the program did not adversely impact them. On the other hand, not going to Carlbrook would have led to a totally different outcome.
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At the time we had to make a decision, Anne, I believed this was the best option for our son. In fact, it was. Not everyone came out of the program and did well, but my son has. I guess in the case of this kid and several others I can discuss, the program did not adversely impact them. On the other hand, not going to Carlbrook would have led to a totally different outcome.
No matter how much you want to believe you do, you have no fucking clue how things would have turned out had he not gone. Not one.
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I find the credentials of the staff more than adequate.
I do agree that substance abuse treatment was not a strength, but that didn't affect my son.
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Besides, it's kind of a moot point anyway since Deb just blew you out of the water.
Again.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Yes, Anne. I do. I know enough about education to know what his options were with and without Carlbrook. He has said as much himself. It allowed a transition to where he needed and wanted to be. He could not have gotten there otherwise- he tried and it didn't work.
It is you who have "no fucking clue."
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So let me get this straight. You agree that there was substandard education, unlicensed staff, questionable (if not abusive) confrontational tactics at Carlbrook and that's all just fine with you? It "worked" for your son. You really don't care how, you just know he's different.
Wow. You sure got your money's worth, huh?
:roll:
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Deborah might not find the credentials adequate. I and the other parents did. I got to know many of the staff members very well, due to the constant issues with my kid. I feel I am in a good position to make the call whether they were good therapists and good with kids. There were some who were not. Most were excellent, qualified and caring.
The credentials are not hidden. They are on the website and on information given to the parents. If a parent doesn't feel the staff is qualified, there is no need for them to choose this program.
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The education was fine. It wasn't what my son was used to, and it wasn't what he wanted to finish out high school with, but it sure didn't hurt him any and he had some excellent teachers. There were AP and Honors courses and the kids go on to excellent colleges.
I have explained why it worked for my son. And, yes, we got our money's worth. There were no options for our situation.
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Yeah well, that's why you get called every name in the book around here. You know[/i] what goes on in there. You admit its abusive, or possibly so. You admit to underqualification or unlicensing. You admit the use of confrontational tactics. AND THIS IS ALL OK WITH YOU. You don't see any problems with this kind of an approach to "treating" kids.
What a self-centered, sadistic, bitch of a mother you must be.
:roll: :roll: :rofl: :rofl: ::unhappy:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::unhappy:: ::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::unhappy:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::unhappy:: ::both::
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The names are mainly called by you, Anne. I really feel sorry for you and I have ever since I first started reading your posts.
I find Master's Degree staff very qualified. I hadn't realized that you had met all the staff and were able to evaluate them! Of course I should defer to your "expertise".
Where is it I said abuse was OK with me? I said if the CEDU model was not substantially changed, there could certainly be emotional abuse. Were kids restrained? No. Were they isolated? No. Were they beaten? No. Starved? No. They may have been subjected to confrontation that crossed the line into manipulation or abuse. I am not saying that is OK and I am not supporting the program without information that this is NOT happening.
I'm saying that my son was not adversely affected. I, personally, do not know of any kids who were. Are there some? Probably.
Anne, I'm sorry it's so hard for you to accept that this program might not hurt every kid. It might have served a purpose for my son, due to the fortuituous circumstances I discussed earlier. Why the anger?
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Guess this forum died a while ago... maybe someone is reading...
So, from time to time I look around online to see what people are saying about Carlbrook and it is SO interesting to me that it is always a bunch of people speculating what it was like... parents, anti-program folks... I graduated from the school over a year ago... so if you have questions I could answer them...
My life was turned around by this school but I have no reservations in exposing the abusive tactics and fucked up situations that I found myself in as a student.
So... fire away.
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The main issue seems to be the education, but there are a few other points, that needs to be validated.
The template I am using on Fornits wiki (May be altered, if a better is made) is to be read here.
http://www.fornits.com/wiki/index.php/F ... ity_Portal (http://www.fornits.com/wiki/index.php/Fornits_Wiki:Community_Portal)
The carlbrook page is here: (I have done some reformatting, due to changes done last night.)
http://www.fornits.com/wiki/index.php/Carlbrook (http://www.fornits.com/wiki/index.php/Carlbrook)
Something could be better described (I am Danish and not so good at US-English. We are taught UK-English in Denmark).
A new thing seems to be the isolation room making the facility less softer and more like CEDU, they originated from.
But it could also be interesting to make a separate article about the request group, which are something they use in a lot of programs and of course a separete page about the workshops - a concept - which the now late Mr. Wasserman bought many years.
I can see that the editing on the page has changed the living conditions from small houses to trailers. How would you describe the sleeping quarters?
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My life was turned around by this school but I have no reservations in exposing the abusive tactics and fucked up situations that I found myself in as a student.
Do tell, I am actually very interested to hear from someone who graduated/left/was pulled/split from Carlbrook
I'm a bit nonplussed by your statement, though. It turned your life around, but you acknowledge that it was abusive and fucked up?
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I think that the main reason that I was helped at Carlbrook was because I was out of my old group of friends for so long that when I returned home, they had all disappeared or forgotten me. I also fell in love with another student... that probably was one of the main turnarounds for me.
I guess I didn't phrase myself correctly - the abusive tactics didn't help me; the aspects mentioned above seem to be what really changed things for me.
Carlbrook uses their students to enforce the rules - so in disobeying any rules, you are potentially "hurting" your friends. I have no idea how they got this chain of events started, but upon entering the school, older students befriend you and you feel guilty breaking rules. It is turned into a situation where it is no longer about authority, but about personal issues in relationships. There were many friendships that I could have had but didn't because of a difference in levels of conforming to these rules, or "standards".
This is why anything works there in the first place.
Carlbrook uses past experiences to break a person down to absolutely nothing, and then puts out a hand when he/she needs someone the most. This is the basis of workshops and groups.
People seem to think that these therapy sessions were far tamer than they are. I was in groups where students got so upset that they threw chairs, vomited, etc. Some were boring and we'd listen to people cry because their friend ate their last snickers bar, whatever. Others, people discussed histories with beastiality, rape, molestation, abuse... (people may be on both sides of the issues, obviously).
Small issues were over dramatized and large issues were sometimes so stunning that staff didn't even have a response.
I guess up until this point everything is okay - the part where I got thrown off was when the screaming/name calling began.
In the first workshop, Integritas, which was completed as early as two weeks after arriving to the school, a student is assigned a truth - a word that describes them fully... your truth may be passionate, it may be honest... the staff pick these words beforehand but lead the students in the direction so that they "pick their own." That evening, however, each student is given a lie. Older students come into this group - I witnessed students skipping over to the workshop room, laughing in anticipation... the group is basically a scream fest. The lights are dimmed, all staff and older students stand around the outside of a circle where the Integritas folks are sitting. Each student is focused on for anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour - they are broken down, screamed at, picked on... Staff made horribly inappropriate comments based on each student's "life story." I was too busy crying to hear most of my feedback, that evening. I must have been under the spotlight for 30 minutes or so. I was told that I belonged in a sewer. Generally you were lucky to return to your beds by 3am.
The next morning, we rose at 8am and returned to the room and were embraced with music and love from the same staff members who had screamed the evening before. I forgave the staff member who told me that I was a sewer rat that morning because he was the first person to hug me after I was given my lie. (Lies could be heartless-bitch, abuser, pitiful, ghost, etc.)
If people are interested I will tell about the other workshops - keep in mind that this is the first one (for some reason loved by most students in the end) and they get tougher each time around...
(Amicitia was run by an incredibly talented woman and seemed to be far better than any of the others)
Anywho, this may or may not sound abusive to you, but when I was sitting in the dimmed room receiving my lie, I wanted to die. I feel that I received NOTHING useful from that evening and I saw a first glimpse of the hidden rage that some of the staff members use against the students.
I guess it sounds like I was a "bad" kid at the school but really was considered to be a successful student. I would rather keep my identity private so I won't go into the positions that I held, however.
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Dude read psy's benchmark site
*Looks for link*
Got it, this part of his site talks about these seminars. (http://http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/abuse.html) It starts at Friendship Workshop
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Carlbrook uses past experiences to break a person down to absolutely nothing, and then puts out a hand when he/she needs someone the most. This is the basis of workshops and groups.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I know the integritas workshop quite well. Where I came from, it was called The Truth propheet. I had to go through it twice.
I think my lie the first time was "liar", but the second time... oh, that was a beaut... it was "cripple".
I don't know if Tim Brace is still there, but he used to be my headmaster... at Rocky Mountain Academy. One of the CEDU schools. Your school is a bastard child/clone of where I was, as is Benchmark, Monarch and Cascade (before it got shut down). There are more, but those are the ones that were started by CEDU expats that come to mind right now.
CEDU was the grandaddy that fostered all of these mutants. And CEDU's old man was the cult Synanon.
Programmies have come on here and said that Carlbrook was nothing like CEDU, and I always had a difficult time believing them, because I knew how effective CEDU was at appearing innocuous and like some fun happyland to outsiders who didn't go there. I knew better, and I knew it was only a matter of time before there would be students coming out of that place who were willing to talk about it.
Amicita? was that like the brother's keeper? (i.e. the one about friendship.) Oh god, that was an awful workshop for me.
Seriously, I would love to compare notes with you about this. I want to get a better understanding of this CEDU clone.
I am especially fascinated with language within insular communities and cultures, and how, despite the fact that the people within the community/sect/cult will speak the same language as someone who is not a part of that community, that language/lingo will also be completely unintelligible to those outsiders. It's part of what keeps those members isolated or feeling like they are a part of something special.
So... anyway... I am curious to know about the terms that were used there in daily life, and what similarities there are to CEDU. How the lingo has evolved/changed/developed.
If you have some spare time, I'd love it if you could check out my wiki entry on CEDU lingo, (http://http://fornits.com/wiki/index.php/CEDU_lingo) and see if any of those terms or definitions spark your memory.
It is by no means comprehensive. I still have a few more things I need to add to it.
Feel free to PM me if you need to. (You'll need a username for that.) Or... just continue the discussion in this thread.
Anywho, this may or may not sound abusive to you, but when I was sitting in the dimmed room receiving my lie, I wanted to die. I feel that I received NOTHING useful from that evening and I saw a first glimpse of the hidden rage that some of the staff members use against the students.
Yup. That sounds pretty abusive to me... and pretty fucking identical to what all of us went through who are victims of the emotionally corrosive CEDU legacy.
Welcome to being a survivor. And seriously, it is good to hear from you. You have some pretty fucking keen insight regarding your experience after being out only one year. Took me about three before I started understanding what had really happened.
Finally, we are hearing from Carlbrook people. Hallelujah!
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I'll respond to your lingo question - I'm just going to list the words I recognize and then add a few :D
Older/Younger Students
Side Conversation
Let's Move On
Where y'at? (I later found a baby video of myself screaming this phrase... haunting, really)
Running Anger ('your' was cut out, apparently)
Thinking
In your shit
Peer Group
Teams
Big/Little Brother/Sister
Smooshing (yeck)
Going Fast
Safety
Crews
Last Light (no first light, for us)
Dyads
Projecting
Bioenergetics
Games
Bans - you mentioned these but they weren't on your list.
Disclosures - similar to your scum
Standards - our rules
Out of Standard - when someone is breaking a rule they are "out of standard" this was the most common term around campus
Honor List - like your dirt list
Holding Someone in Standard
"Plum, Square, and Level"
"Walking the road" - there is a long road at Carlbrook that leads into town - when a student decides to leave, they generally just take a stroll down the road until they are picked up and escorted back to the wilderness program "the woods"
Suspension - sitting in a room, looking straight ahead (sometimes you are able to attend class, sometimes not) from 8am to 10pm everyday. You may not speak other than to ask to use the restroom or get water. All movements, comments, or any other issues are written down by moniters and turned into the head of the school.
Program - lesser form of suspension
Action Plan - I guess this is the lightest form of punishment, bans with many students, writing assignments, no fun time
Stump - a tree is cut down and a very out of standard student is given a shovel and is made to dig the stump out of the ground
Interesting that you should mention Tim Brace... what did you think of him? He's still there...
I think the reason that you're not hearing from more Carlbrook students is because of the "bond" that they feel with the staff. By coming onto the websites and stating information, they are essentially backstabbing. I imagine that at some point I will identify myself but only having been out for a year, I am not ready to be "disowned" by the community. Sadly, this has happened with a few students.
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bans is on the list. it's easy to miss, because I didn't alphabetize it, instead trying to keep them categorically close together.
http://fornits.com/wiki/index.php/CEDU_lingo#Bans (http://fornits.com/wiki/index.php/CEDU_lingo#Bans)
we had disclosures, too. That was the primary term, I believe. The only reason I remember scum is because I read it in my full-time journal.
standards=agreements
out of standard=out of agreement
holding someone in standard = pulling them up
I love how these terms change between the clones, as if they are afraid someone is going to catch on to how incredibly full of shit they are.
As for Tim? I thought he was an idiot. I "learned" to like him, via stockholm syndrome, I suppose, but my first impression of him was that he was a melodramatic tweaked-out freak with the social skills of a retarded monkey fetus.
I remember the first monday house meeting I went to, I couldn't stand him from the get go. He mentions something about his wife, and says "That's the woman I'm fucking, and you're not." Which everyone thought was so hysterical, but I just kind of thought was lame.
There were lots of different kinds of staff at CEDU. There were the heavies, like Caroline and Sharon, who were just absolutely brutal. Then you had wannabe heavies and hippie rejects like Vicki Jones, weird, uncategorized, creepy man-children like Joe Sweeney, general dickheads like Randy Eide, Patrick Stambusky (he started monarch), Steve Rookey (also now at monarch), and Bruce Wilson, and then you had these kind of loser milquetoast melodrama staff like Rea and Tim, who, for some reason, held a lot of sway at the school, but you never knew exactly why. Tim was known for being able to work everyone up into a weepy mess in the shortest amount of time, especially during warm-ups and raps.
I remember one warm up where they were playing that stupid song from an american tail, "somewhere out there" (and I was already a Bluth studios hater, and thought that movie sucked) and people were just sobbing like crazy. I remember him talking about the mouse, too. That was one warm up I definitely didn't cry in, even though I was totally brainwashed, simply because I hated that movie so much. (My animator side asserted itself, I suppose. "I don't care how brainwashed you are, this movie sucked, the story sucked, the characters sucked, and there is no way in hell you are going to cry to it.")
Seriously, did Bluth Studios ever do anything decent besides "The Secret of NIMH?"
I am not ready to be "disowned" by the community. Sadly, this has happened with a few students.
What community are you referring to? Is there a post-carlbrook community, or is it simply friends keeping in touch with one another?
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hehe - Tim is just the same... except... I would imagine probably not fucking his wife anymore. He isn't very nice to her!
Everyone LOVED Tim Brace but I had and still have absolutely no respect for the man. I have never hated anyone so much. It is impossible to put into words how I feel about him.
He is the headmaster at Carlbrook. He basically ignores the girls and is crazy over the boys. He picks his favorites and "smooshes" with them but it looks a little more like sexual tension building up in his life to me.
He is an evil man.
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Whoops - missed the end of your entry -
the community - ah... I have a few friends from the school but they wouldn't care - but if you turn your back on Carlbrook you are no longer allowed to write letters to current students, speak to staff, etc. They cut you off and basically pretend that you never went there. This recently happened to another graduate that I know...
they have instilled a new post-grad program in which one of the advisors calls you once a week to check up... for a year... yes, I'm serious - a year. Also, mandatory therapy once a week for... well forever I guess.
Not in therapy - but they don't have to know that.
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He is the headmaster at Carlbrook. He basically ignores the girls and is crazy over the boys.
You have no idea how right on you are about that. I had a few survivors confide in me about some rather inappropriate things Tim did with them... all male.
At RMA, Tim would apparently like to bring boys into his office for personal, private, one-on-one smooshing sessions. According to what one person told me, it never got illegal or blatant. Just really really fucking creepy, like smooshing always was.
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what the whole Tim fan club thing was, either, cause we had it too. I honestly can't remember if I ever got on board with it. I suppose I grew to like him well enough. I knew I was kinda bummed when he left and Doug became headmaster. But my first impression of him, when my brain was the least clouded by the program, was that he seemed like one of those overzealous, idiotic camp counselors who had maybe half of the intelligence as an adult that I did at 16.
Whoops - missed the end of your entry -
the community - ah... I have a few friends from the school but they wouldn't care - but if you turn your back on Carlbrook you are no longer allowed to write letters to current students, speak to staff, etc. They cut you off and basically pretend that you never went there. This recently happened to another graduate that I know...
they have instilled a new post-grad program in which one of the advisors calls you once a week to check up... for a year... yes, I'm serious - a year. Also, mandatory therapy once a week for... well forever I guess.
Not in therapy - but they don't have to know that.
That's fucking hideous.
I suppose if I were you, I would probably write one final letter to your friends still at Carlbrook, before any potential "disownage" happens, and have it say something like "See you on the outside. It's much brighter here." Include your most up-to-date contact information, say fuck it. Wash your hands of the whole thing, move on, and if they contact you when they get out, groovy. Worse comes to worse, you can track down their parents.
As for not being able to speak to staff.... ppppfffffff. Is that a threat or a promise?
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I'd rather do a month of work details then 2 days in a row of staring at the wall being monitored.
I'd go apeshit. That's real fucking scary. Tim brace is overseeing that. It's a fucking POW camp. Hell i'd rather be in a 72 hour caroline rap than be told I was on an indefinite stare at the wall program.
Please elaborate on how you got put on one of those. Was it before or after work details?.
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anything really. walking out of group. punching walls. making innapropriate jokes. breaking bans. not crying enough. etc.
i spent over 4 months in that room. most miserable times of my life.
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how long were your average stays in the room? like days in a row or hours at a time?
or like 4 months consecutively?
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I was never in the room...
it could be more than four months consecutively. wake up at 7 and you are in the room by 7:30 - you don't leave the room until 10:30pm... (unless you haven't been bad enough to go to school, in which case you are allowed to leave the room solely for your classes)
some people are just put in there for a night as punishment but that isn't as big of a deal.
whether you do this after other punishments depends on whether you were caught doing something desperately out of standard (i.e. smoking a cigarette...) or if you just have been "slacking off" and gradually made your way to the room.
hey - person who was in the room for four months - are you who i think you are? have we recently discussed this website but i never sent you the link? call me. :D
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To think someone's on one of those right now is insane.
You had to go from 7:30 am to 10:30 pm???? That's POW!
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hello,
i am a former cbk student, and i found this blog, and until this point, almost none of my friends have seen our experience at CBK as i did, and its nearly impossible to change their minds. its nearly impossible to try and remind them that they have to think for themselves now. i think if i show them this blog, it will do a lot of good
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I was at cascade from end of 86 before graduation. I definitely remember older students Grant Price and a Justin Merritt, can anyone tell me about this history?
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In response to xcascade, Grant and Justin both work at Carlbrook currently. Grant is seen by all the students as the ornery troll and Justin is the fun, loud, vulgar guy that gives students coffee and energy drinks.
I graduated from Carlbrook in August 09. I was in the Pi peer class. I'm open to answer any questions that anyone on this board may have, because needless to say the program is pretty fresh in my memory.
I read a good portion of this thread. I was nodding my head at a lot of it but a lot has also changed.
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I was at cascade from end of 86 before graduation. I definitely remember older students Grant Price and a Justin Merritt, can anyone tell me about this history?
In response to xcascade, Grant and Justin both work at Carlbrook currently. Grant is seen by all the students as the ornery troll and Justin is the fun, loud, vulgar guy that gives students coffee and energy drinks.
Re. Grant Price and Justin Merritt at Cascade: you might want to check out a run of 7 or so posts starting with THIS post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=27352&p=343607#p342991) in one of the CEDU-Watch threads.
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wow! I never saw any of that stuff. As a former RMA Student, I knew these staff, and understand cooltherapy's contributions as very important in documenting the progression and evolution of cultic mind numbing quackery. great set of posts.
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From the other Carlbrook Thread
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8792 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8792)
Tim Brace was the director of mount bachelor academy for awhile. He had the same job as Sharon Bitz did until MBA got its license suspended and Aspen shut it down. MBA and Sharon Bitz personally were cited by Oregon for a number of kinds of child abuse, you can find this on other boards or on the web. I witnessed much of the same happen under Tim Brace and I saw him do a lot of it myself.
in his first meeting there he announced to the whole school that he used to "suck cock for crack" - his words
Carlbrook survivors -- this http://http://www.dss.virginia.gov/files/division/dfs/cps/manuals/03-2009/partIIdefinitionsofabuseandneglect3-09.pdf may be worth taking a look at
A good start might be the sections
B)2.12 Physical Abuse - Bizarre Discipline
D)2.4 Medical Neglect - Necessary Medical Care or Treatment
E)2.0 Mental Abuse -- Caretakers Actions or Omissions
Virginia Department of Social Services Hotline Numbers
Hotline Numbers
In Virginia: (800) 552-7096
Out-of-state: (804) 786-8536
Hearing-impaired: (800) 828-1120
Thanks for the research!!
Ditto. I hope the Carlbrook survivors have the courage to speak up, spread the word to their fellow grads. The deal with these investigations seems to be the state has no impetus to take action until kids start to make complaints.
Tim Brace told everyone about "sucking cock for crack" but only because he wanted to show how dark his life had gotten and if he could rise up, so could we. Still, it seemed like he would say it not just to bond with us but also partially for shock value...I don't know...he is definitely a used car salesman but I think he swallows his own bullshit, you know?
yes
Like I think he genuinely believes in what he does, and I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse. Scary to think about.
Well it definitely makes it more sad. I think most of these staff mean well. But on the other hand most of them have degrees in something else, don't have even a teaching credential or an MFT in counseling, and haven't been getting anything but the most minimal sort of continuing education. I think the way you can succeed in working in one of these programs without any training etc is very seductive. Suddenly these people are doing something that seems meaningful and they get to feel like an expert—they think they know better than the medical establishment, etc—and kids are hugging them and parents are thanking them and then there's all the BS about how they're "saving lives." To me it's terribly arrogant.
I have so much anger inside me right now towards Carlbrook. I'm just now starting to realize how horrifically manipulative it was...not just while I was there but NOW. I feel like my brain works differently now. I get so scared and anxious in random situations because I have this fear of...well, I'm not sure what I'm afraid of.
like you get up to take a leak in the middle of the night and you just get this disorderly feeling, like everything is a howling mess?
But it's the same crippling fear I felt at Carlbrook, of being "bad" or getting in trouble or having everything taken away. Carlbrook messed with my psychologically and I don't feel like that's ever going to go away. My therapist says the therapy that I got there created a need for more therapy to undo that therapy, ironically enough. He says I exhibit a lot of the same symptoms that his vets with PTSD do. I hate this, feeling like my mind's been violated. Were we really behaviorally modified? How can Carlbrook control me so much even when I'm not there? Help.
first few times i smoked pot after i got out i had terrible flashbacks. saw the staff's faces in my mind scolding me. evil imagos
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Some questions for anyone who wants to talk about Carlbrook
about the workshops:
Is there any role-playing? I mean, something where the staff assigns a character for you to act out?
In the Amicitia, how physical is the circle of exclusion?
Are there horeshoe-style groups where you only get "feedback"? How harsh does it get?
Are there exercise where you call yourself names? In which you call your parents names?
In the Animus, what's the "pillow fighting" about? What other bioenergetic exercises are there? Are you ever restrained under a sheet by the group? Do they do the one where you have to bite towel and pull on it?
They make you watch Requiem for a Dream, right? Other stuff? Under-age kids watching this?
about request group:
Do people get called names? Yelled at?
How harsh does the "feedback" get?
Are people ever supposed to yell out the floor?
about punishments in general
How often are you supposed to do honor lists? Just in workshops?
Do you ever have to do manual labor? If so what kind of work? For how long at a time? Only if you break a major rule, or...?
I'm going to post this on the other Carlbrook list too. Sorry for the repeat
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I went to Carlbrook and graduated in December 2008. I'm pretty active on the other Carlbrook thread. Earlier in this thread, you guys were talking about how you were parents/friends/etc. of Carlbrook students but needed actual Carlbrook students to have a real discussion. Soo...any questions? I'll answer anything.
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I'd rather do a month of work details then 2 days in a row of staring at the wall being monitored.
I'd go apeshit. That's real fucking scary. Tim brace is overseeing that. It's a fucking POW camp. Hell i'd rather be in a 72 hour caroline rap than be told I was on an indefinite stare at the wall program.
Please elaborate on how you got put on one of those. Was it before or after work details?.
TWO DAYS??? Try two weeks, minimum. One guy was in there for nine months IN A ROW.
And a repeat from the other thread:
about the workshops:
Is there any role-playing? I mean, something where the staff assigns a character for you to act out?
Tons. I can't think of it all but there's a bit in every workshop and some in regular groups if you're in a Sally group or an Andy group. In Amicitia, you push people out of the circle of friendship. In Animus, you go to your own funeral/read your obituaries/die/get buried/rise from the dead/etc. You also have to act out your negative sculpture (you know, shooting yourself in the head, having your legs open like a whore, snorting coke, whatever your issue is). You also fight for a spot on the "lifeboats." In Teneo, you go from being born to turning into a rose or something weird like that the last day. Also in Teneo, you have to act out 3 of your "roles" and use people in your peer group as other characters. I can't remember the other bits.
In the Amicitia, how physical is the circle of exclusion?
I don't know about other people's experience but in mine it wasn't like kids were getting punched or anything. You know, you'd shove them out and stuff but everyone was pretty half-hearted about it. I don't know, those acting-it-out scenarios never "worked" for me.
Are there horeshoe-style groups where you only get "feedback"? How harsh does it get?
Yeah, in the first two workshops. Integritas is the harshest probably. You get "monster," "victim," "pathetic," "worthless," "unlovable," "disgusting," etc written on a card and taped on your shirt. I've heard some really fucked-up feedback in those circles...I'm trying to think of the worst..."cum-dumpster," "n****r-lover," etc...or people just bringing up other people's disclosures and using them against them.
Are there exercise where you call yourself names? In which you call your parents names?
I think you kind of call yourself names the whole time with your negative statements, lies, etc. You yell at your parents (aka the floor) in Integritas. You hit/yell at/rage against your parents (aka pillows) in Veneratio.
In the Animus, what's the "pillow fighting" about? What other bioenergetic exercises are there? Are you ever restrained under a sheet by the group? Do they do the one where you have to bite towel and pull on it?
Raise arms over head, brings hands down on pillow and sort of make it an entire-body type of exercise. Yell. Fight Night in Teneo is the one where you pull on the towel and scream and push against your peers. No biting though. Can't remember the other bioenergetics.
They make you watch Requiem for a Dream, right? Other stuff? Under-age kids watching this?
You watch like the last 10 minutes of RFAD in Veneratio. Most kids are 18 by the time they graduate but some aren't. I heard they recently got rid of that part though because word got out and they didn't want to get in trouble. It was a pretty horrifying 10 minutes...double-headed dildoes assfucking Jennifer Connelly, shock treatment on the old woman...revolting. It was effective, though.
about request group:
Do people get called names? Yelled at?
Not random named. Like you can't call someone an asshole - it has to be "you're ACTING LIKE an asshole." People do get railed a lot though by staff and peers. Sometimes it's in a constructive way, like you can tell they're yelling because they care but sometimes it's just spiteful, angry bullshit.
How harsh does the "feedback" get?
Very. There's really no other way to say that. Very, very, very harsh.
Are people ever supposed to yell out the floor?
All the time. It's called "running anger."
about punishments in general
How often are you supposed to do honor lists? Just in workshops?
In workshops, before workshops, in suspension, on action plans, if your adviser suspects you've done something bad.
Do you ever have to do manual labor? If so what kind of work? For how long at a time? Only if you break a major rule, or...?
Out-of-school suspensioners work with the maintenance crew - gardening, mowing, digging up tree stumps, raking, etc. And of course everyone cleans. Everyone is always effing cleaning. Wake up, clean your dorm, clean your mod. Before you go to sleep, clean your dorm. After dinner, crews either run jugs (deliver water jugs to various locations around campus while carrying them on their backs and running), cleaning the dining hall/kitchen, or running/cleaning the Commons. You get a crew or multiple crews for minor infractions (didn't wear a belt, bra strap showing, messy dorm, disrespect, cutting across the grass, swearing, spitting without asking, leaving a personal item unattended, late homework, talking back to a staff, etc.). Suspension is for more serious things (lying, cheating, etc.) or if you need "time alone to work on your emotions" or whatever.
And no, we were never restrained by the group with a sheet. The workshops sucked but I don't think they crossed a line. I mean...ugh, it's complicated. I think so much of what went on in there was unnecessary and sometimes damaging but I don't think they did anything ABUSIVE, you know? Like, nothing that was illegal or crazy like those psycho therapists that stage fake birth canals and accidentally smother the kids (does anyone remember that case from a few years ago?).
I think the problem with workshops is that they're scripted. They're not individualized for the specific kids in the specific workshop. It's like manufacturing 20 extra-large t-shirts for 20 kids. You need to make them extra-large because the kids are all different sizes and this way, every kid will at least have clothing on his back even if he or she is swimming in fabric. It's better than to have a kid not be able to fit in the t-shirt, right? So everyone's wearing these extra-large t-shirts. For some kids, the t-shirts fit fine. For others, it's a little uncomfortable, you know, baggy and annoying but okay. For some, it goes down to their knees and when they go outside, it doesn't protect them from the sun and they have this awful weird-shaped sunburn because of the way the shirt fits and...okay. Never mind. This metaphor sucks. Sorry about this, guys.
But basically, they're doing a one-size-fits-all workshop when they need to think about what is going to work FOR and WITH the kids in the workshop. They need to spend more time making 20 different t-shirts in the right size for the right kid. The problem with the workshops is that they do EVERYTHING. They know that some kids are visual learners/experiential learners/etc. So they need to reach each kid. So they throw in some acting-it-out exercises, some bioenergetic exercises, some visualizations, some feedback circles, some written-out tools, some lectures, some writing assignments...basically throwing in everything and the kitchen sink because they know that everything won't affect everyone but SOMETHING will affect EVERYONE, you know? So they need to cover all of their bases.
The problem is that the kids don't know this. They think they're supposed to "get" EVERYTHING. So when they can't connect with something, they think something's wrong with them and fake it and feel like shit. Or, worse, they try to FORCE themselves to do it, to feel it, and end up breaking themselves a little bit. Or the staff try to force it and break something. It's just bad.
Sorry, I sound like an idiot. But hopefully you get what I'm saying.
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they dont do requiem for a dream anymore but my adviser made me watch the last ten min before i graduated bc she thought it would scare me into following my transition plan
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I'd rather do a month of work details then 2 days in a row of staring at the wall being monitored.
I'd go apeshit. That's real fucking scary. Tim brace is overseeing that. It's a fucking POW camp. Hell i'd rather be in a 72 hour caroline rap than be told I was on an indefinite stare at the wall program.
Please elaborate on how you got put on one of those. Was it before or after work details?.
TWO DAYS??? Try two weeks, minimum. One guy was in there for nine months IN A ROW.
And a repeat from the other thread:
about the workshops:
Is there any role-playing? I mean, something where the staff assigns a character for you to act out?
Tons. I can't think of it all but there's a bit in every workshop and some in regular groups if you're in a Sally group or an Andy group. In Amicitia, you push people out of the circle of friendship. In Animus, you go to your own funeral/read your obituaries/die/get buried/rise from the dead/etc. You also have to act out your negative sculpture (you know, shooting yourself in the head, having your legs open like a whore, snorting coke, whatever your issue is). You also fight for a spot on the "lifeboats." In Teneo, you go from being born to turning into a rose or something weird like that the last day. Also in Teneo, you have to act out 3 of your "roles" and use people in your peer group as other characters. I can't remember the other bits.
In the Amicitia, how physical is the circle of exclusion?
I don't know about other people's experience but in mine it wasn't like kids were getting punched or anything. You know, you'd shove them out and stuff but everyone was pretty half-hearted about it. I don't know, those acting-it-out scenarios never "worked" for me.
Are there horeshoe-style groups where you only get "feedback"? How harsh does it get?
Yeah, in the first two workshops. Integritas is the harshest probably. You get "monster," "victim," "pathetic," "worthless," "unlovable," "disgusting," etc written on a card and taped on your shirt. I've heard some really fucked-up feedback in those circles...I'm trying to think of the worst..."cum-dumpster," "n****r-lover," etc...or people just bringing up other people's disclosures and using them against them.
Are there exercise where you call yourself names? In which you call your parents names?
I think you kind of call yourself names the whole time with your negative statements, lies, etc. You yell at your parents (aka the floor) in Integritas. You hit/yell at/rage against your parents (aka pillows) in Veneratio.
In the Animus, what's the "pillow fighting" about? What other bioenergetic exercises are there? Are you ever restrained under a sheet by the group? Do they do the one where you have to bite towel and pull on it?
Raise arms over head, brings hands down on pillow and sort of make it an entire-body type of exercise. Yell. Fight Night in Teneo is the one where you pull on the towel and scream and push against your peers. No biting though. Can't remember the other bioenergetics.
They make you watch Requiem for a Dream, right? Other stuff? Under-age kids watching this?
You watch like the last 10 minutes of RFAD in Veneratio. Most kids are 18 by the time they graduate but some aren't. I heard they recently got rid of that part though because word got out and they didn't want to get in trouble. It was a pretty horrifying 10 minutes...double-headed dildoes assfucking Jennifer Connelly, shock treatment on the old woman...revolting. It was effective, though.
about request group:
Do people get called names? Yelled at?
Not random named. Like you can't call someone an asshole - it has to be "you're ACTING LIKE an asshole." People do get railed a lot though by staff and peers. Sometimes it's in a constructive way, like you can tell they're yelling because they care but sometimes it's just spiteful, angry bullshit.
How harsh does the "feedback" get?
Very. There's really no other way to say that. Very, very, very harsh.
Are people ever supposed to yell out the floor?
All the time. It's called "running anger."
about punishments in general
How often are you supposed to do honor lists? Just in workshops?
In workshops, before workshops, in suspension, on action plans, if your adviser suspects you've done something bad.
Do you ever have to do manual labor? If so what kind of work? For how long at a time? Only if you break a major rule, or...?
Out-of-school suspensioners work with the maintenance crew - gardening, mowing, digging up tree stumps, raking, etc. And of course everyone cleans. Everyone is always effing cleaning. Wake up, clean your dorm, clean your mod. Before you go to sleep, clean your dorm. After dinner, crews either run jugs (deliver water jugs to various locations around campus while carrying them on their backs and running), cleaning the dining hall/kitchen, or running/cleaning the Commons. You get a crew or multiple crews for minor infractions (didn't wear a belt, bra strap showing, messy dorm, disrespect, cutting across the grass, swearing, spitting without asking, leaving a personal item unattended, late homework, talking back to a staff, etc.). Suspension is for more serious things (lying, cheating, etc.) or if you need "time alone to work on your emotions" or whatever.
And no, we were never restrained by the group with a sheet. The workshops sucked but I don't think they crossed a line. I mean...ugh, it's complicated. I think so much of what went on in there was unnecessary and sometimes damaging but I don't think they did anything ABUSIVE, you know? Like, nothing that was illegal or crazy like those psycho therapists that stage fake birth canals and accidentally smother the kids (does anyone remember that case from a few years ago?).
I think the problem with workshops is that they're scripted. They're not individualized for the specific kids in the specific workshop. It's like manufacturing 20 extra-large t-shirts for 20 kids. You need to make them extra-large because the kids are all different sizes and this way, every kid will at least have clothing on his back even if he or she is swimming in fabric. It's better than to have a kid not be able to fit in the t-shirt, right? So everyone's wearing these extra-large t-shirts. For some kids, the t-shirts fit fine. For others, it's a little uncomfortable, you know, baggy and annoying but okay. For some, it goes down to their knees and when they go outside, it doesn't protect them from the sun and they have this awful weird-shaped sunburn because of the way the shirt fits and...okay. Never mind. This metaphor sucks. Sorry about this, guys.
But basically, they're doing a one-size-fits-all workshop when they need to think about what is going to work FOR and WITH the kids in the workshop. They need to spend more time making 20 different t-shirts in the right size for the right kid. The problem with the workshops is that they do EVERYTHING. They know that some kids are visual learners/experiential learners/etc. So they need to reach each kid. So they throw in some acting-it-out exercises, some bioenergetic exercises, some visualizations, some feedback circles, some written-out tools, some lectures, some writing assignments...basically throwing in everything and the kitchen sink because they know that everything won't affect everyone but SOMETHING will affect EVERYONE, you know? So they need to cover all of their bases.
The problem is that the kids don't know this. They think they're supposed to "get" EVERYTHING. So when they can't connect with something, they think something's wrong with them and fake it and feel like shit. Or, worse, they try to FORCE themselves to do it, to feel it, and end up breaking themselves a little bit. Or the staff try to force it and break something. It's just bad.
Sorry, I sound like an idiot. But hopefully you get what I'm saying.
I'd rather do a month of work details then 2 days in a row of staring at the wall being monitored.
I'd go apeshit. That's real fucking scary. Tim brace is overseeing that. It's a fucking POW camp. Hell i'd rather be in a 72 hour caroline rap than be told I was on an indefinite stare at the wall program.
Please elaborate on how you got put on one of those. Was it before or after work details?.
TWO DAYS??? Try two weeks, minimum. One guy was in there for nine months IN A ROW.
And a repeat from the other thread:
about the workshops:
Is there any role-playing? I mean, something where the staff assigns a character for you to act out?
Tons. I can't think of it all but there's a bit in every workshop and some in regular groups if you're in a Sally group or an Andy group. In Amicitia, you push people out of the circle of friendship. In Animus, you go to your own funeral/read your obituaries/die/get buried/rise from the dead/etc. You also have to act out your negative sculpture (you know, shooting yourself in the head, having your legs open like a whore, snorting coke, whatever your issue is). You also fight for a spot on the "lifeboats." In Teneo, you go from being born to turning into a rose or something weird like that the last day. Also in Teneo, you have to act out 3 of your "roles" and use people in your peer group as other characters. I can't remember the other bits.
In the Amicitia, how physical is the circle of exclusion?
I don't know about other people's experience but in mine it wasn't like kids were getting punched or anything. You know, you'd shove them out and stuff but everyone was pretty half-hearted about it. I don't know, those acting-it-out scenarios never "worked" for me.
Are there horeshoe-style groups where you only get "feedback"? How harsh does it get?
Yeah, in the first two workshops. Integritas is the harshest probably. You get "monster," "victim," "pathetic," "worthless," "unlovable," "disgusting," etc written on a card and taped on your shirt. I've heard some really fucked-up feedback in those circles...I'm trying to think of the worst..."cum-dumpster," "n****r-lover," etc...or people just bringing up other people's disclosures and using them against them.
Are there exercise where you call yourself names? In which you call your parents names?
I think you kind of call yourself names the whole time with your negative statements, lies, etc. You yell at your parents (aka the floor) in Integritas. You hit/yell at/rage against your parents (aka pillows) in Veneratio.
In the Animus, what's the "pillow fighting" about? What other bioenergetic exercises are there? Are you ever restrained under a sheet by the group? Do they do the one where you have to bite towel and pull on it?
Raise arms over head, brings hands down on pillow and sort of make it an entire-body type of exercise. Yell. Fight Night in Teneo is the one where you pull on the towel and scream and push against your peers. No biting though. Can't remember the other bioenergetics.
They make you watch Requiem for a Dream, right? Other stuff? Under-age kids watching this?
You watch like the last 10 minutes of RFAD in Veneratio. Most kids are 18 by the time they graduate but some aren't. I heard they recently got rid of that part though because word got out and they didn't want to get in trouble. It was a pretty horrifying 10 minutes...double-headed dildoes assfucking Jennifer Connelly, shock treatment on the old woman...revolting. It was effective, though.
about request group:
Do people get called names? Yelled at?
Not random named. Like you can't call someone an asshole - it has to be "you're ACTING LIKE an asshole." People do get railed a lot though by staff and peers. Sometimes it's in a constructive way, like you can tell they're yelling because they care but sometimes it's just spiteful, angry bullshit.
How harsh does the "feedback" get?
Very. There's really no other way to say that. Very, very, very harsh.
Are people ever supposed to yell out the floor?
All the time. It's called "running anger."
about punishments in general
How often are you supposed to do honor lists? Just in workshops?
In workshops, before workshops, in suspension, on action plans, if your adviser suspects you've done something bad.
Do you ever have to do manual labor? If so what kind of work? For how long at a time? Only if you break a major rule, or...?
Out-of-school suspensioners work with the maintenance crew - gardening, mowing, digging up tree stumps, raking, etc. And of course everyone cleans. Everyone is always effing cleaning. Wake up, clean your dorm, clean your mod. Before you go to sleep, clean your dorm. After dinner, crews either run jugs (deliver water jugs to various locations around campus while carrying them on their backs and running), cleaning the dining hall/kitchen, or running/cleaning the Commons. You get a crew or multiple crews for minor infractions (didn't wear a belt, bra strap showing, messy dorm, disrespect, cutting across the grass, swearing, spitting without asking, leaving a personal item unattended, late homework, talking back to a staff, etc.). Suspension is for more serious things (lying, cheating, etc.) or if you need "time alone to work on your emotions" or whatever.
And no, we were never restrained by the group with a sheet. The workshops sucked but I don't think they crossed a line. I mean...ugh, it's complicated. I think so much of what went on in there was unnecessary and sometimes damaging but I don't think they did anything ABUSIVE, you know? Like, nothing that was illegal or crazy like those psycho therapists that stage fake birth canals and accidentally smother the kids (does anyone remember that case from a few years ago?).
I think the problem with workshops is that they're scripted. They're not individualized for the specific kids in the specific workshop. It's like manufacturing 20 extra-large t-shirts for 20 kids. You need to make them extra-large because the kids are all different sizes and this way, every kid will at least have clothing on his back even if he or she is swimming in fabric. It's better than to have a kid not be able to fit in the t-shirt, right? So everyone's wearing these extra-large t-shirts. For some kids, the t-shirts fit fine. For others, it's a little uncomfortable, you know, baggy and annoying but okay. For some, it goes down to their knees and when they go outside, it doesn't protect them from the sun and they have this awful weird-shaped sunburn because of the way the shirt fits and...okay. Never mind. This metaphor sucks. Sorry about this, guys.
But basically, they're doing a one-size-fits-all workshop when they need to think about what is going to work FOR and WITH the kids in the workshop. They need to spend more time making 20 different t-shirts in the right size for the right kid. The problem with the workshops is that they do EVERYTHING. They know that some kids are visual learners/experiential learners/etc. So they need to reach each kid. So they throw in some acting-it-out exercises, some bioenergetic exercises, some visualizations, some feedback circles, some written-out tools, some lectures, some writing assignments...basically throwing in everything and the kitchen sink because they know that everything won't affect everyone but SOMETHING will affect EVERYONE, you know? So they need to cover all of their bases.
The problem is that the kids don't know this. They think they're supposed to "get" EVERYTHING. So when they can't connect with something, they think something's wrong with them and fake it and feel like shit. Or, worse, they try to FORCE themselves to do it, to feel it, and end up breaking themselves a little bit. Or the staff try to force it and break something. It's just bad.
Sorry, I sound like an idiot. But hopefully you get what I'm saying.
What I get is that this is RMA/CEDU/Mount Bachelor. Same stuff, different names.
The original post seemed to be about what Carlbrook is about, with many suggestions that it is a CEDU spin off. Clearly this is the case. Not just a spin off but with the same actors. Tim Brace was at CEDU, then RMA, then Mount Bachelor and now Carlbrook. So it shouldn't be too surprising that the same stuff Tim Brace used elsewhere, he brought with him to use at Carlbrook.
The above poster is listing off what went on in the "Propheets, Workshops and Raps" at CEDU/RMA. The same stuff that was derived from Synanon, EST and LifeSpring that Mel Wasserman, the founder of the CEDU schools stole for his own use.
Earlier in the thread some names were thrown out. Glenn Bender, Lon Woodbury, Doug Kim-Brown and of course, Tim Brace. All were at Rocky Mountain Academy (RMA) in the 80's. When I attended RMA in 1984, Glenn Bender gave me my strip search and was the director of admissions. If he ever had anything to do with the academics, I knew nothing of that. He might have assigned students their classes. Lon Woodbury had an office on campus. He was selling himself out to parents as a completely neutral and independent placement consultant, yet had his office on campus and just as he was then, today he still touts himself as being independent. Doug Kim-Brown transferred to RMA from CEDU in 1984-85. He was quickly in charge of running a mid-level "family", doing group therapy and running propheets and workshops. Back then he was fairly milquetoast and quiet, though later he became much louder and abusive. Tim Brace was always an emotional basket case who loved young boys in the literal sense. He did indeed like taking young boys to his personal residence or office for some quiet one-on-one smushing and affection. And he told the same story about sucking cock for money quite often. Usually any propheet he was running and quite a number of raps. And he copped to some serious criminal activity as well as heavy drug usage.
It sounds like Carlbrook had the exact same abusive and humiliating "raps" as we did. AT RMA/CEDU you wrote out rap requests, got called to raps, sat in a circle of chairs, had to switch seats to be across the room for indictments, and most indictments were generally petty, loud and abusive. People were called names, degraded, made to cry. Crying was basically the single-best way to get an indictment to stop. As though making you cry was a victory. Girls were routinely called sluts, whores, pieces of meat and worse. If a girl had any sexual activity in her background, she was screwed from start to finish. We were made to run our anger, either towards someone, or sometimes a person in the room would simply act as a surrogate parent so you could yell at them, but just as often we yelled at the floor or a Kleenex box.
RMA/CEDU had the same one-size fits-all program style. Everyone got the exact same treatment/therapy/counseling/raps/propheets. All students were made to feel equally horrible about their pasts despite huge differences. Practically everyone was told at one time or another that they would win up deal or in jail if they left the program even though virtually no students (When I was there) were suicidal or criminals. But because students were often compelled to cop to increasingly worse and worse things about their lives, most of which were untrue and never happened, but just to get the heat off or look good, staff may have believed they were one step from the grave or prison. But more likely they just like saying dead or in jail because it is mean spirited.
It also sounds like Carlbrook had the same no-boundaries "affection" and "touching" as RMA/CEDU. I imagine you smushed together on the floor, leaning up against each other, hugging often, etc. And that not participating was considered being "resistant" and could get you indicted in raps or punished in some way.
Carlbrook seems to have many of the cruel and unusual punishments RMA/CEDU had. Endless days spent staring at a wall and doing writing assignments to disclose past wrong doings. Often made up by students so it looked like they were being honest, because to say you hadn't done anything else besides what you were being immediately punished for would never, and was never believed. And of course all punishments included manual labor.
Another issue was the interaction with therapists. When I was at CEDU/RMA in the 80's, they didn't have actual psychologist with degrees and credentials. Apparently in the 90's they wised up and generally found the least qualified people to fill these positions who would be content to get paid and not actually participate directly in the programs. Or ask any questions about the programs either. Just the least curious person possible. In my day, the untrained staff were all you got. And from what Mount Bachelor disclosed when they were recently shut down, their "real" therapist had no understanding of what went on in the program, saw students rarely, and really had no routine contact with students unless parents specifically asked for that. And of course paid through the nose for it. So basically they were there so their sign on the door could be seen by parents who would say, "Look, they have a real trained psychologist on staff." All of the programs who claim to have a real shrink seem to not use that shrink in the program much.
Carlbrook does appear to use all the same terminology as RMA/CEDU/Mount Bachelor, but with some different names. Not surprising. And this is done to make discussing the programs outside of the program with non-program members incredibly difficult. Most police officers and child protective services people would probably consider you a bit off-balance if you started explaining what you were forced to go through and endure, using the terminology from your program. Stumps would be easy to explain, but just saying stumps would get a blank stare in response. The word propheet doesn't mean anything to anyone. Cults need their own language, not just to make the program seem more special to the participants, but also to make it harder to describe to authorities. Because they will be telling the authorities you are a problem teen with a great deal of emotional and mental issues, and talking nonsense won't help you at all when you start spouting off with Honor Lists (Which sounds great, wish my kid was on the Honor List) and Veneratio which is not a real word. It just doesn't translate well. And not just to authorities, but also to parents. Your parents are already exhausted dealing with you by the time they send you there. So when you cry out for help and they try and listen to you, if you sound like you are saying, "Yo momma, you shizzle is fo dope in my hommies hot spot." Parents eyes glaze over, they have no clue what you are saying, lose interest and just hope you stay and do the program. They won't hear, "Mom, dad...This place is a cult! They are using attack therapy, based on Synanon, LifeSpring and EST to get me to disclose things I never did by using group peer pressure utilizing humiliation and verbal abuse. I feel very uncomfortable that I cannot communicate with you any time I need to, or that you cannot communicate with me any time you need to, and that the little we do get to communicate with each other is strictly monitored..." Kids don't get this far with mom and dad. And their vocabulary is so messed up by the cult, they really can't clearly explain things. And by the time they leave, it's too late. Twenty five years later my parents still can't accept that the program was bad. And I am quite capable of describing exactly what went on in the most clear and concise of language. And this is why the cults/programs can get away with it. By the time you'd be able to describe the abuse, afford to bring a lawsuit, odds are the statute of limitations is long past. And who would believe you?
Bans was also a CEDU/RMA/Mount Bachelor product. Pulls up by students was common. Ratting out on friends was encouraged, even by fellow students. You could get put on bans for not ratting on your friends often enough to please everyone. Students were not allowed to put anyone on bans, though on occasion students would recommend and staff would agree, especially if the suggestion was made by an older student. And older students were most often the most abusive of the students in raps. However no student outdid any of the power staff. Most students were reluctant to indict in raps, but once someone did, usually a "look good" everyone jumped in who had two brain cells working because keeping the heat on someone else was better than it possibly turning on you. And this is where "needs" came from. Taking it out on someone else, saying anything, true or not just to keep the heat on someone else. It wasn't personal, it was survival, and nearly everyone did it. Bans were also very arbitrary. I had a staff walk by on Christmas Eve and place me on bans from my closest friends, with no explanation, while gifts were being handed out. And then just walked away. People from CEDU have described abusive staff walking up while people appear to be enjoying themselves and ordering someone to go sit somewhere and do writing assignments, for no reason except that they had such power. Such actions scared students. It made you constantly question innocent activities. You might ask you friend, "Are we spending too much time together? We were smushing yesterday and I think we ate breakfast together, so maybe we should go find someone else to hang out with just so we don't get put on bans." Because bans could last months. If the staff who put you on bans can't remember how long you've been on them, they could say no just because they think you haven't been banned the "minimum" length of time. Or they just might not like you and keep them going. Because they had that power.
So I am going to cast my vote and say Carlbrook is a CEDU/RMA/Mount Bachelor clone. Some minor alterations, but basically the exact same abusive and humiliating program run, naturally, by the same untrained and abusive staff who ran all the other programs. In real life they call it Six Degrees of Separation. When it comes to these programs, it is closer to Two Degrees. If you don't know this phrase, it means everyone you meet, even total strangers, if they were to list everyone they have ever met, basically they have met someone, who knew someone, who knew someone else, who knows you. Or is related to you. In the Troubled Teen Industry, it only takes knowing a couple of staff before someone says, "Hey, they were at my school too!"
Happy Holidays everyone!
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Somebody give me a little validation here. I have spent the last 6 years presented with information connecting Synanon --> CEDU --> Cascade --> Carlbrook
Excuse me while I vomit profusely for an hour.
Good, I'm back. WHAT IN THE FUCK IS GOING ON??? I am in SHOCK. And I've been staring this information in the face for SIX FUCKING YEARS.
If I wasn't brainwashed, I must be the stupidest person to ever walk the earth. I missed it and missed it and missed it. I was so focused on the particulars of the therapeutic exercises - so focused on validating my anger about the process of ANIMUS or GROUP SESSIONS or DIGGING STUMPS. Who gives a shit about Animus?
This is so big and so real and so scary. And how can we PLEASE get some HELP?!
There are kids being damaged as I'm typing and it breaks my heart.
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Please join this forum - it's private and a good place to discuss grievances...
http://www.carlbrookfamily.lefora.com/
carlbrookfamily.lefora.com