Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 27, 2005, 12:52:00 PM
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My neighbor's son is currently in a wilderness program in Georgia. They are looking at schools for him (emotional growth) for after wilderness. Does anyone know anything about Carlbrook School in Virginia? There doesn't seem to be much info about it on these boards. The boy is 16 1/2 and stopped going to school, was doing drugs, stealing cars, breaking and entering etc. Thanks for any info. They are also looking at Swift River and Oakley.
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:roll:
Why the program after the wilderness camp, exactly? seems kind of asinine... hes a kid, not a twice-baked potato. But, well, Cynically thats the whole point - break their will with forced marching, and drill submission into their head with a lock-in program.
Anywho, 'emotional growth' doesnt come from being in a program, it comes from growing up. In other words 'emotional growth' really doesnt exist, its just a euphamism for behavior modification programs where the apparent but thinly-veiled objective is to break the child and program into them whatever you want, which is usually submitting to all authority, behaving as told to by parents or program staffers, and damn the consequences and damage to the child himself or herself!
You're not gonna find any reccomendations for programs in this forum so much as being recommended to pull them OUT of them and not waste your money, and obviously get him out of that environment and back in the real world so he can grow up without being brainwashed in some large group awareness training (LGA) like Straight's raps, or WWASPS seminars, or CEDU propheets, or whatever the programs you might find use.
If I were you Id tell them to look at http://www.ISACCORP.org (http://www.ISACCORP.org) and seriously read all thats there. Sure, the boy has problems... but this whole industry isnt about fixing them or providing therapy, its about locking them up and making the parent feel better. Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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I understand the general tone on this forum is to bash all programs.
What I am looking for is SPECIFIC information about Carlbrook- any graduates on this board?
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Havent heard of it.
So, I googled it. I got.... the carlbrook school itself as the first hit (merely by typing in carlbrook and hitting search, good job getting high on the directory there!) and some struggling teens links. That on http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com)
So, its obviously gone through the usual internet marketing thing, no surprise here.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... 0/np4.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives//2001/10/np4.html)
When I read that link, it seems to be just another TBS, except it at least STATES that it offers actual academia. Here's the actual script from that page:
Operating under the legal organization Education Management Services LLC, these individuals are opening a new school in southern Virginia for bright, underachieving adolescents between the ages of 15 and 18 who have been challenging conventions and questioning authority. They will be using a 16-month educational model ?where academic excellence and character development are integrated.? They anticipate the typical student will achieve two years of academic work in their 16-month stay.
The new student will start with a month long wilderness adventure to prepare him or her for the time on the campus. The school ?operates under the assumption that both negative and positive behaviors are a function of learned experience, reinforcement, modeling and imitation, and an individual?s value and expectations of success.?
A primary aspect of the school is the positive peer culture, which consists of small groups of approximately 12 students each, with each group having members of ?varying degrees of seniority.? A very important element of their philosophy is Honor, defined as ?the reconciliation of one?s conduct with his or her conscience.? The concept of Honor will be an ?overarching concept that incorporates all of the values the School wishes to impress upon its students.? As a result, ?the School will avoid reliance on ?rules? or ?agreements? to establish acceptable standards of student conduct and instead require that all students adhere to the School?s Honor Code.?
?The school, which will be run by an administrative Board of Regents, is currently interviewing additional candidates for faculty and support positions.?
Well, usual marketing fluff, its just like everything else. This "honor code" could be one of many things, perhaps a coersive thing, or the whole unwritten rules mindfuck, or it could be an ACTUAL honor code.
Anyway, time to stop rambling and give an opinion on it, cos thats all I can really give.
POSITIVE: It states everyone involved with it clearly, which is a sign that theres a less of a remote chance that it actually is a school.
NEGATIVE: Well, to quote it from the horse's ass itself, (struggling teens) -- A primary aspect of the school is the positive peer culture, which consists of small groups of approximately 12 students each, with each group having members of ?varying degrees of seniority.? <- sounds like the common practice that some programs use in having teens bossing around other teens for some reason or another. Very slippery slope and I really cant think of any positive impact from it, but I guess if you ant them to conform and try to stay on the good side of arbitrary authority, and dont care what comes of it, hey, the parents have every right to do so these days :razz:
I havent heard abuse accusations about it, but I would still say BE WARY and stay in constant contact with your child, dont fall for the usual "he is lying to come home" bullshit, and believe everything he says. I'd say that for ANY program, period, end of story.History does not record anywhere or at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unkonwn without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
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On 2005-07-27 11:17:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
for bright, underachieving adolescents between the ages of 15 and 18 who have been challenging conventions and questioning authority...
...just like those long haired hippie terrorists, Jefferson, Washington, Tomas Paine, Lyssander Spooner. No problem, we know just how to nip that type of deviance in the bud!
If you want specifics, do a google search or set an alert and bump this topic w/ new (or newly found) info from time to time. You may find the names of individuals w/ reported history in the industry. And, w/ any luck, ppl w/ firsthand exp and interest in the place will come along.
That's all marijuana is, after all. It's just a plant, a common and easily grown one at that. In many cultures, its consumption was lawful for millennia. And in all that time, the bond between thugs, mayhem, murder and marijuana that we see today did not exist.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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If you go back in time on this board, you will find several postings about Carlbrook. My son went there, and it is a wonderful program. He loved the place, and it did a lot for him. Carlbrook's attitude is "Hey, you're a great kid, and somehow you screwed up. If you work hard and be honest with yourself, we can get you back on track." Academics is paramount, and the faculty is first-rate. Classes are small, and they expect a lot from the students. My son says he had to study like never before. But he's a high achiever, so that was a good thing for him. They are not an end-of-the-line school, so they can be choosy about who they accept. And if a student is not following their rules, and making satisfactory progress, they will be asked to leave. The positive peer environment means that new kids are buddied up with successful older kids. My son still stays in contact with friends who graduated earlier and are now at various colleges across the country. The kids have individual and group therapy sessions weekly, and it's expensive, but the facility and campus life are more like a "normal" boarding school than a program. Communication between the school and parents is excellent. Student phone calls are timed, but not monitored. When my son was there, on Mother's Day they made sure every kids phoned his or her mom. My son has talked about going back to visit sometime. We had an extensive tour and visit before enrolling our son, and a visit would be the best way for you to evaluate the school and see if it meet your needs and your child's. Good luck!
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I just graduated from Carlbrook in July 2005, and honsetly, coming on this website and reading people's replys about Carlbrook made me want to vomit. This school was the best thing that has ever happened to me and my family. I found out how important I am, and how what I was doing to my body, my heart, my mind was against everything that is simply true about me. Carlbrook does not beleive in fixing anybody, because they beleive in the theory that no one is broken, it is true. It is not a place where they lock kids up, it is a place where lost kids can find out what they want out of this life, to apologize to themselves for betraying love, truth and their hearts. This school has been my home for the past 17 months, it has been the most powerful experience. Yes, a lot of the student are in charge of things like a student body government, a committee where older students are bigs brothers and big sisters to new students who feel so completly and utterly uncomfortable, there are prefects where the students are making sure the dorms are emotionally safe. They dont care about the money, that is why it works, they put the students first and that should be the point of all therapeutic school. I wasnt planning on going to college before Carlbrook, I had gotten kicked out of my previous boarding school and was majorly addicted to drugs. Now i am here, i have been sober for 20 months, i have made the best friends i have ever had, friends that are based off of pure truth and love and what feeds my soul, not drugs or boyfriends or superficial nonsense, and in September I will be attending one of the best colleges in the Country. All because I simply trusted for a moment and let my family love me, and loved my family and let others hold me while i cried and danced with my inner child. I realized that everything that i have been searching for has been within me, i have let my mom be my mom and my dad be my dad because i understand how important i am to this world. Carlbrook made all this possible for me to find and discover. Honsetly people that bash this place are just afraid of letting their children go, who dont beleive in going back and facing what eats them alive everyday, people that dont trust...But i understand it is hard and many families think this way before Carlbrook. Its all about love and individual strength.
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On 2005-08-07 21:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
" i have made the best friends i have ever had, friends that are based off of pure truth and love and what feeds my soul, not drugs or boyfriends or superficial nonsense, and in September I will be attending one of the best colleges in the Country"
Since when are boyfriends "superficial nonsense"? Relationships are an important part of life. Also, remember when you go to that "one of the best colleges in the country" that wise old saying that goes "I before E..." You're going to need it.
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Ok, just had a brief AIM Convo with a carlbrook grad.
Almost no details or substance at all, except they use seminars (called workshops) and apparently make a big deal about emulating the stanford prison experiment by having oldcomer teenagers boss around the younger ones, via some sort of hierarchy. Dunno if it would be considered a level system because she blocked me in a huff before I could get any acutal INFO out of her.
Apparently there are manditory weekly phonecalls, however the 'manipulate to leave' bullshit came out, again, just like all programs. YET, the same person told me not a minute before that "there is no fixing at carlbrook"... so why do you need to manipulate to leave if you arent kept there to be fixed?
Given the speech full of buzzwords and new-age hippy feelgood bullshit youd expect someone who spent time in seminars(workshops) to say, the most I can deduce about this program is that it makes use of the seminars(workshops) for all the 'emotional growth'.
See my first post in this thread where I list my grievances about such 'emotional growth' seminar experiences. Enough peer pressure, enough time worn down, enough mind-numbing buzzwords and enough stress to cause regression (really easy for a displaced teenager kept in a program with people working her mind over with mind-games and other seminar stressors) and they're psychologically regressed into a state where you can influence and suggest them to do whatever, which is called brainwashing for those of you who dont realize what it is.
Fortunately, its newagey hippy feelgood bullshit, at least what is given to me, so flowergirl is probably at least not going to hurt other people. How the program works except old comers boss around newcomers (like virtually any program with a level system) and that it uses seminars (called workshops there), I dont know, but that basically puts it in line with the industry as a whole.
http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org) is full of information, and stories about what this kind of program can do. If you really insist on placing your child Id demand to see how it runs day by day, and not the usual dog & pony show given to visitors.
I'd also sit through a 'workshop' yourself before your kid does after reading up at ISAC about how 'emotional growth' seminars work - forcing a breakdown via many differnet ways (anger, humiliation, depression from past memories, disclosing all your past shit to a group, mind games, peer pressure, exhaustion) and then filling them up with the program dogma and bullshit, and then a nice 'lovebomb' (affection games and more buzzword bullshit like 44444's that WWASPS uses) during the euphoria at the end of the seminar - which is all the person REMEMBERS about it at the end if theyve 'drunk the punch', which is why they're so damned defensive about it.
Sorry to the person I talked to in AIM for calling you out like this, but its my job. You'll be able to sort all this out in a few years, but in your current washed state you think Im some poor wretched negative critical cold person and feel sorry for me, but thats okay, no need to. But I would challenge you with this - think about very carefully and critically (hey, sorry, this shit aint easy, but then again the seminars werent when you were IN them, were they?) about how they were supposed to work, what made you feel the way you feel, and why youre so defensive... but short on details about the program. You're coming accross like a cult victim, whether you accept it or not.
To everyone else, just two things. 1. Buyer beware. 2. ITS YOUR CHILD, you should be a PARENT and raise them, and if they truly need help that you honestly cant provide, you do your damnest to ensure their safety! Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous
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Oh, good. The all-knowing Nihil is now a Carlbrook expert after a brief IM conversation.
The parents actually DO go through shortened versions of some of the workshops. Even the most resistant kids really get a lot out of the workshops and look forward to them. While my kid was at Carlbrook we had a number of parent seminars and visits with our kid. At first the visits were short and on-campus and they progressed to off-campus and then home visits. The progression was logical. A number of kids actually chose to stay at Carlbrook past their program completion date to finish school. The campus is beautiful and looks like a normal boarding school. I didn't agree with everything that was done, but on the whole it is an excellent program and has done a lot of good for many kids. There is a big relapse rate within 6 months after leaving Carlbrook. It is a very insular and safe place, and the real world presents challenges that the kids are not always equipped to face. This is a problem with all programs and needs to be addressed.
Parent of Carlbrook grad 8/04
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On 2005-08-07 21:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just graduated from Carlbrook in July 2005, and honsetly, coming on this website and reading people's replys about Carlbrook made me want to vomit. This school was the best thing that has ever happened to me and my family. I found out how important I am, and how what I was doing to my body, my heart, my mind was against everything that is simply true about me. Carlbrook does not beleive in fixing anybody, because they beleive in the theory that no one is broken, it is true. It is not a place where they lock kids up, it is a place where lost kids can find out what they want out of this life, to apologize to themselves for betraying love, truth and their hearts. This school has been my home for the past 17 months, it has been the most powerful experience. Yes, a lot of the student are in charge of things like a student body government, a committee where older students are bigs brothers and big sisters to new students who feel so completly and utterly uncomfortable, there are prefects where the students are making sure the dorms are emotionally safe. They dont care about the money, that is why it works, they put the students first and that should be the point of all therapeutic school. I wasnt planning on going to college before Carlbrook, I had gotten kicked out of my previous boarding school and was majorly addicted to drugs. Now i am here, i have been sober for 20 months, i have made the best friends i have ever had, friends that are based off of pure truth and love and what feeds my soul, not drugs or boyfriends or superficial nonsense, and in September I will be attending one of the best colleges in the Country. All because I simply trusted for a moment and let my family love me, and loved my family and let others hold me while i cried and danced with my inner child. I realized that everything that i have been searching for has been within me, i have let my mom be my mom and my dad be my dad because i understand how important i am to this world. Carlbrook made all this possible for me to find and discover. Honsetly people that bash this place are just afraid of letting their children go, who dont beleive in going back and facing what eats them alive everyday, people that dont trust...But i understand it is hard and many families think this way before Carlbrook. Its all about love and individual strength."
My question to you is do you know what it means to "love the program"?
It means you are fully baked.
:smokin:
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Thank you, Anon, for that excellent summary of the Carlbrook program. I am so glad it worked so well for you and congrats on your college plans. My kid is in touch with a number of Carlbrook kids and I'm sure you are, too.
Please understand that most of the posters on this site have no idea what Carlbrook is all about. They are lumping it in with the very few abusive, boot-camp style programs that are out there. They think every family that sends a kid to a program, even one like Carlbrook, is harming their child for life. The posters on this board have either had bad program experiences themselves (sometimes as much as 20 years ago) or have a friend who has had a bad experience. It might help if you would also elaborate on the benefits of the wilderness program you attended and maybe even name the program.
Carlbrook Parent
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Sounds like the Carlbrook propaganda staff is here to do some quick damage control and reputation maintenace, lest someone finds out the truth about the place.
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And the truth about the place is_______? And you know this, how??
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On 2005-08-08 09:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you, Anon, for that excellent summary of the Carlbrook program. I am so glad it worked so well for you and congrats on your college plans. My kid is in touch with a number of Carlbrook kids and I'm sure you are, too.
Please understand that most of the posters on this site have no idea what Carlbrook is all about. They are lumping it in with the very few abusive, boot-camp style programs that are out there. They think every family that sends a kid to a program, even one like Carlbrook, is harming their child for life. The posters on this board have either had bad program experiences themselves (sometimes as much as 20 years ago) or have a friend who has had a bad experience. It might help if you would also elaborate on the benefits of the wilderness program you attended and maybe even name the program.
Carlbrook Parent
"
Does Carlbrook accept kids taken by forced transport?
:???:
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Carlbrook only accepts kids directly from wilderness (no stops at home). The kids can arrive at Carlbrook by escort or with the family.
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"I didn't agree with everything that was done, but on the whole it is an excellent program and has done a lot of good for many kids. There is a big relapse rate within 6 months after leaving Carlbrook. It is a very insular and safe place, and the real world presents challenges that the kids are not always equipped to face."
Sure smells like something... kinda fishy, sorta like a cow pasture, oh yeah, bullshit.. A CULT!
It REEKS of being just another regression/seminar based 'treatment center', which is culty by definition. Funny how you dodge that so artfully, Anon Sanders. Tell me, how did you feel being reduced to tears and nothing but intense emotions and having your intellect reduced to nothing in all those workshops?
Tell me parent, why didnt you get a full 'workshop' experience but your child did? Hmm? Can't handle it?
Oh, and 'wilderness only' definitely tips me off about two things:
1. Its just another step in the pipeline of fleecing parents by keeping their children in 'the industry' as long as you can. What the fuck is Carlbrook to say taht all kids need to go through a wilderness thing before the program? And why are wilderness things only step one in a program now? They dont work anymore?
2. If they just came from a wilderness program, and in all likelyhood were told they would be going home and were SURPRISED! all over again, they would be either broken down already, or pushed to the limit and easier to break down in a workshop.
I know you all are too brainwashed from the emotional psycho cryfests of your seminars(workshops) to think straight but Im hoping someone who stumbles on the thread would go to ISAC and read about the discovery seminars, or regressional 'therapy' like EST/Lifespring/Synannon/SEED/Straight did back in the day and everyone just rips off. So, dont feel bad personally. God knows I dont want you to have ANOTHER psycho cryfest at a computer.
Oh, and the whole stanford-experiment-esque bullshit with making children responsible for other children is still bullshit. Trusting an untrained, potentially problematic (otherwise why the hell are they there?) and very much ADOLESCENT child with authority over other children is begging for trouble. But hey, with enough workshopping you'll be whipped into thinking its nothing but love honor and other mind-numbing seminar-speak.
Just close your eyes and say some more lingo and go back in your mind to one of those stupid seminars if I start making your brain work too hard :wave: because in the good ole US of A, cults are A-okay!
Edit: almost forgot to say this: A program need not be bootcamp based to be abusive. Anything where the whole point is instigating regression, and forcing a child to buy into a program, to believe all of it and indoctrinate as grounds for being 'better' and graduating are by nature a cult and inherantly abusive. "Resistant"? No, they HAD their own will until it was broken. Havent you ever thought about why the whole point of the damn place is to make you buy into some happy hippy new-agey bullshit and 'love' the program and everyone in it? Ever wonder why youre so damned protective and clingy to a treatment center? Why all these emotions are present? Its a freaking treatment center, move the hell on!
I wasn't raised Catholic, but I used to go to Mass with my friends, and I viewed the whole business as a lot of very enthralling hocus-pocus. There's a guy hanging upon the wall in the church, nailed to a cross and dripping blood, and everybody's blaming themselves for that man's torment, but I said to myself, 'Forget it. I had no hand in that evil. I have no original sin. Theres no blood of any sacred martyr an my hands. I pass on all of this.'
--Billy Joel, American musician
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-08-08 10:19 ]
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Nihil, you have no idea what you are talking about. Your bullshit is an attempt to cover up a total lack of information. Carlbrook is not a cult. It is an therapeutic boarding school. The school is very careful about who it admits. They accept a limited type of kids and no students with severe learning differences or real severe psychiatric problems. The age range is also narrow- 15-17 with a few older 14s and some kids turning 18 while they are there. The head guy is an asshole- a very talented asshole who has built an incredible school based on a model he and his partner developed. He and his partner are Cascade graduates and felt that there was a better model that could be used. They expect kids to challenge the system-that is why the kids are there in the first place. Carlbrook provides a safe place for the kids to make mistakes, grown and figure out where they want to be in their lives. It isn't for everyone- kids who came in with serious addictions don't get as much addiction treatment as they should, and are likely to regress. But for the kids who are willing to eventually be open to what the therapists and other kids can teach them, it is a great program.
Parent
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On 2005-08-08 10:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook only accepts kids directly from wilderness (no stops at home). The kids can arrive at Carlbrook by escort or with the family."
Yep, just as I figured.
Brat Camp first ... to make the kid damn glad to have a bed to sleep in even if they are locked up in a TBS.
You program people disgust me and so do the parents who do this to their kids under the guise of "therapy". What a lousy way to parent. By checkbook and once a month conference calls.
No wonder some of these poor kids learn to love the program, they are probably the only people who ever showed them any attention. These programs, abusive as they may be, are still better for some kids than parents who do not love or want them.
Very sad commentary.
:flame:
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Oh, yes- you know that all of these parents don't love or want their kids. Great conclusion.
There are a lot of advantages to requiring wilderness first. In many cases, the kids were already at wilderness before Carlbrook was considered as a next placement. One kid at Carlbrook actually requested to go back to wilderness after getting in some trouble at Carlbrook-in the dead of winter. You still refuse to admit that wilderness is good for many kids- and valued by many kids.
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Another point- no one is locked up at Carlbrook. You can walk down the road anytime.
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On 2005-08-08 10:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh, yes- you know that all of these parents don't love or want their kids. Great conclusion.
There are a lot of advantages to requiring wilderness first. In many cases, the kids were already at wilderness before Carlbrook was considered as a next placement. One kid at Carlbrook actually requested to go back to wilderness after getting in some trouble at Carlbrook-in the dead of winter. You still refuse to admit that wilderness is good for many kids- and valued by many kids.
"
And YOU Anon, refuse to concede that if these programs did NOT EXIST you would have to parent your child yourself, instead of paying somebody else to do it.
Get Real ... wilderness therapy is a rip off and the only reason kids are sent to one before TBS is to break their spirit or detox them ... both of which could be done at home with the right amount of coersive manipulation.
What happens if a kid does not volunatarily want to go to Carlbrooke?
:roll:
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Which wilderness program does Carlbrook recommend?
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If a kid does not voluntarily AGREE (different than "want") to go to Carlbrook, the school will not accept them.
It has nothing to do with not being willing to parent your kids. In fact, at a certain point, the best and most loving thing you can do for your kid is to admit that you can no longer help him or her and select a good program.
Carlbrook does not recommend one wilderness program. SUWS and Second Nature are frequently chosen by the families, but there are many others.
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I have a hard time believing that its totally voluntary and youre not kept by force. Plus, what happesn to the kid if he runs off? Sent to a "tougher" TBS?
Even if thats still the case, that theyre not physically kept in the school, Im still not going to approve of regressional seminars, EVER. Sorry.
Im also not going to approve of a wilderness camp thats basically more of the same, except done with a different mechanism. Its nothing but stressing someone out until they have a emotional outburst and giving them affection during the euphoria when the outburst is over, and taking advantage of that state to influence them.
Thats not growth, its regression. Im sure that you, having gone through it, only remembering the euphoria and the 'love' and other bullshit, and being thuroughly influenced by it cant see it what it is, but Im not going to go on a fruitless endeavour to try to convince you otherwise. Its for people coming in so they know what really happens, not just what Carlbrook tells them.
Also, you say I dont know whats going on. Well, excuse me for Carlbrook not telling me specifics at all, and excuse you for ignoring me on AIM in a huff over this stupid school.
I know how the regressional seminar bullshit works, I know how the wilderness bullshit works. I dont know any other specfiics about Carlbrook, but if they use a seminar by any name - be it workshop or whatever - Im going to say something about it! I dont agree with regression and making children jump through emotional hoola-hoops, playing mind games and putting them on psychological rollercoasters! I also do not agree with having children telling other children what to do and having authority over them. Its risky, unsafe, and just begging for it to be taken advantage of.
Sure, you can paint me the prettiest picture on earth about Carlbrook, but the bottom line is the modicum of information youve chosen to divuldge doesnt convince me as being different from the other shit I've seen out there. Its secretive, vague, clouded in the haze of this new-agey bullshit that you and others spew who come out of those damn seminars, and seems to rest on nothing but 'accepting' youre messed up, and then influencing you to change to get out. Thats not therapy. That IS brainwashing.
BTW, stop speaking in vague terms and telling me about feelings and tell some damn specifics. When feelings are the only thing you speak of it supports my theory that its just a damn seminar-program because thats how a seminar WORKS - reducing you to emotions.
If you want to convince me its not like that, youre going to have to speak with DETAILS about what happens. DETAILS about the day to day life of the program. DETAILS about the authority and power and decisions exercised and made by oldcomers over newcomers. DETAILS about the workshops!
You give me feelings, that "I wont get it unless I go through it" and other feel-good bullshit. Ive heard it all before. It comes from everyone out of a program. When they all start to rhyme, then all start to sound the same, you get very, very suspicious.
BTW, I still can't find a rational reason why ALL children need to be put in a damned wilderness camp before Carlbrook except to help break them down. Seems to be painting with a large brush to say ALL children need it. I mean shit, you say theres no 'fixing' at carlbrook (sounds like more doublespeak) so why are they there? If they arent fixed, what happens to them?"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
"That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
--Disraeli to Gladstone
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On 2005-08-08 11:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If a kid does not voluntarily AGREE (different than "want") to go to Carlbrook, the school will not accept them.
It has nothing to do with not being willing to parent your kids. In fact, at a certain point, the best and most loving thing you can do for your kid is to admit that you can no longer help him or her and select a good program.
Carlbrook does not recommend one wilderness program. SUWS and Second Nature are frequently chosen by the families, but there are many others."
Ginger signed herself into Straight 20 years ago. That was not willing. You can make people agree to something with coersion. Im really not impressed.
And yeah, abdicate to a program! Plug your ears with your fingers and tra la la la la all your damned life and make them spew seminar-speak like this anonymous Carlbrook graduate! I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is none the less true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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We are not trying to convince you of anything. We are trying to counter your uneducated rantings.
If you run away from Carlbrook you will be sent back to wilderness or sent to a different program- it's up to your parents. Or-you can go home. Two kids from our group ran away and were found in a few days. They went to wilderness and then came back to Carlbrook. They wound up being some of the strongest kids and one stayed to complete high school.
Carlbrook grad
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I'd like to know when the trend to send kids to wilderness then straight to a locked boarding school began?
And who is pushing (oops, I mean selling) WT as the first step? The Ed cons? The program referral agents (the ones paid by the programs), the schools themselves?
I know program parents are some of the most gullible buffoons around, but you'd think they would smell the money at some point ... before they bought the farm?
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Can you read? Carlbrook is not locked. Many of the kids are already in wilderness before the parents even learn about Carlbrook as a next step option. Wilderness is a frequent first step taken by desperate parents whose teens need immediate help in a very different environment from that in the home community. After the kids detox and spend some time getting at their core issues in wilderness, they are ready to move into a school environment such as Carlbrook or Oakley.
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The threat of going to a 'tougher' TBS if you run from carlbrook is called 'coersion'. There need not be a lock on a door if the alternative is worse.
Plus, calling wilderness a first step without qualification is ridiculous. How is it therapeutic? Who said it was a necessary first step? Who said everyone needs it? Who said someone cant just go into a regular program? Who said you need any of this except the people selling it?
How does Carlbrook provide this therapy? How does it help people? What kind of power do the older students have over the younger ones? What kind of punishments are there, especially ones doled out by the older students? How are the children made to go to through the seminars? (workshops).The present system is among the most impractical imaginable, if the facilitation of learning is your aim.
--Neil Postman and Charles Weingartner
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No one said everyone needs wilderness first. There are many programs that don't require wilderness first. If you are going to go to Carlbrook, you will go to wilderness first. They have a waiting list, so they can require what they want.
The more senior students do not dole out punishments. Consequences for rule violations range from writing assignments, being on "bans" with certain other students, outdoor chores, to not being able to go to classes or a return to wilderness (for running away, hurting yourself or someone else or continued refusal to follow rules). The students look forward to the workshops and earn the right to go to them. They come at certain points in the program. There are excellent trained psychologists on the staff and most (not all) are respected by the kids. The senior level staff is very available and one of the directors sleeps on campus (they rotate)every night.
Hate to tell you- but coersion is a fact of life the way your describe it. If you don't do your work at your job, you might get fired. Isn't that coersion? There are always choices to be made. Most of the kids at Carlbrook find it to be a pretty good alternative to where they could be. Their transcripts are fixed and they have college counseling. The kids are mainly from wealthy families and there is a preppy element. Many have been kicked out of private prep schools.
Nihil- I see nothing in your background that gives you any credibility here.
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Carlbrook is the newest version, and probably does appeal to the 'wealthier' parents as stated previously. It's roots go deep into CEDU land.
Carlbrook Players
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#49405 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4886&forum=9&start=20#49405)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 270#120286 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=270#120286)
SUWS
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#69285 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7312&forum=9&start=0#69285)
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Do you know what "ad hominem" means? Do you know that you just made that fallacy in arguement again?
A question is a question regardless of who asked it. It doesnt matter if Stephen Hawking or Paris Hilton says it, what is, is. Stop pulling that old excuse out of your hat!
Yeah, you are right, Carlbrook can do whatever the hell they want, but thats irrelevant to what I have to say. WHY do they do it, WHAT is the reason for it, and what would explain this as necessary and/or beneficial?
To assume it might be BUSINESS related is a fairly safe assumption, given the nature of it being a treatment INDUSTRY. Im sure there may be philosophical reasons behind that requiement in treatment, but its also naive to think that business partnerships dont play a role.
BTW, why not tell us some details about how carlbrook and the workshops go... the ones you didnt answer last time.
1. what powers do the higher level students have?
2. how are those decisions enforced?
3. are they final?
4. who holds THEM accountable?
5. how do the workshops work
6. what happens if they dont like them or refuse to participate
7. how long are they?
8. could you describe one?
Again, it doesnt matter who asked those questions, theyre just as valid regardless of whose mouth they come out of - Lon Woodbury, Ken Kay, ME, or Donld Duck! Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has.
-- Margaret Mead
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I am not aware of any powers that more senior students have. They have more privileges, of course. They are accountable to their peers and to staff. The workshops range from one day to several days. I have never heard of a student NOT liking them. Each one has a focus. I think the first one involves Truth- getting at who you really are. The leaders (staff) do an excellent job conducting the workshops and there is peer support by a couple of more senior students. One has Friendship as its theme. The peer groups really bond with each other, and the workshops cement this bond.
There aren't many of these kids who would have stayed on the Carlbrook property if they had not first gone to wilderness and got free of substances and began the therapeutic work. Wilderness first is a good idea.
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On 2005-08-08 15:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Can you read? Carlbrook is not locked. Many of the kids are already in wilderness before the parents even learn about Carlbrook as a next step option. Wilderness is a frequent first step taken by desperate parents whose teens need immediate help in a very different environment from that in the home community. After the kids detox and spend some time getting at their core issues in wilderness, they are ready to move into a school environment such as Carlbrook or Oakley. "
WT is a joke. You want your kid to detox? Take em out to the wilderness yourself, bozo. Pull up a camp stool and get out your yellow pad. Take notes. Get a nickname (TEEN BUSTER?) and tell your kid how he needs to do as you say, not as you do.
Teens need parents, not wilderness guides on a power trip.
Sheesh, you parents are just dopes. Flippin stupid!
:smokin:
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Do you not understand what kind of relationship kids and parents have by the time this point is reached? The kids hate the parents and wouldn't go anywhere with them. The parents are not equipped to be therapists. Unless you have gone to an excellent wilderness program and worked with a therapist there, I don't think your opinion is worth much.
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I've been to Carlbrook as a student and I can tell you that it was the most caring and forgiving environment I have ever been in in my life. I could be myself and feel again. I felt good there.
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On 2005-08-08 15:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
Hate to tell you- but coersion is a fact of life the way your describe it. If you don't do your work at your job, you might get fired. Isn't that coersion?
No. The threat of being fired is not coercion. You can disagree with your employer. You can quit. You can leave anytime you want (you might be able to come back if you do). You took the job voluntarily.
How you can possibly compare holding a job to being incarcerated as the same form of coercion is way beyond my ability to comprehend.
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The Carlbrook student who just posted can tell you that he or she was not incarcerated. The student was given the opportunity to learn and grow in an emotionally safe and therapeutic environment.
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Maybe we should agree to disagree on this??? Carlbrook students and parents who have posted on this topic generally like the place. Posters who have not been to Carlbrook, are bashing it. Seems like the Carlbrook people have more credibility. I'd give anything if my kid had not had to go anywhere, but I don't have a goddamn time machine. In that sense, I agree with the posters who say that good parenting is preferable to a program. While in wilderness and at Carlbrook, my husband and I were getting the help we needed.
Since this forum is intended to help kids and parents who sometimes have to make hard choices, I'd like the bashers to consider the possiblilty that Carlbrook may not be a bad place. I found this forum when looking for internet dirt on Carlbrook. I didn't find very much. Found a lot of internet dirt on PCS, Tranquility Bay, Island View, etc. The original poster on this topic asked if Carlbrook might be a good choice for his neighbor's kid. It certainly is a better choice than many other places, and I hope that message has been conveyed.
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"While in wilderness and at Carlbrook, my husband and I were getting the help we needed. "
Anon Carlbrook Parent- would you mind emailing me at [email protected] I was a Carlbrook parent also and would like to get in touch with you. I don't want to be too public on this forum.
Thanks.
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On 2005-08-14 07:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Maybe we should agree to disagree on this??? Carlbrook students and parents who have posted on this topic generally like the place. Posters who have not been to Carlbrook, are bashing it. Seems like the Carlbrook people have more credibility. I'd give anything if my kid had not had to go anywhere, but I don't have a goddamn time machine. In that sense, I agree with the posters who say that good parenting is preferable to a program. While in wilderness and at Carlbrook, my husband and I were getting the help we needed.
Since this forum is intended to help kids and parents who sometimes have to make hard choices, I'd like the bashers to consider the possiblilty that Carlbrook may not be a bad place. I found this forum when looking for internet dirt on Carlbrook. I didn't find very much. Found a lot of internet dirt on PCS, Tranquility Bay, Island View, etc. The original poster on this topic asked if Carlbrook might be a good choice for his neighbor's kid. It certainly is a better choice than many other places, and I hope that message has been conveyed."
No, its not physically as brutal at those places, but the backbone of it is STILL LGA seminars. Those are potentially very psychologically damaging, and arent therapy at all. If you had bothered to read up about them, you would find out that its just a pathological effect... its a emotional experience that comes out of it. No actual therapy. It fits brainwashing to a "t" and was debunked DECADES ago.
Plus, it wears off in a few years, so why even bother? It is what it is, and thats all that it is - and you dont know what it is!
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/pathology.htm)
http://nospank.net/bean.htm (http://nospank.net/bean.htm)
They go by many names and guises, and people's ignorance of them, but be they called a workshop, seminar, "large group awarness training" (LGA), "experiential"-whatever, propheet, or a rap, it is what it is.
Thats not therapy, its not even lasting, its just replacing their cognitive facilities with emotions and making them spew hippy loveydovey newage buzzword bullshit like "lika you" did for a few years. It ain't therapy, because it doesnt address any underlying issues. It just covers them up with fake happiness and sunshine and puts buzzwords in their mouth. I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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Nihil...Im going to get personal, i read a section of your live journal, sucha sadness, and dark holes you express. Thats why none of your feedback means anything to me, because you are honsetly projecting your own miserable life onto the few places in this world that are trying to help and love people that are just like you! I feel for you, honestly i do, your entries make your life seem so sad, and i am sorry for whatever kind of state you are in, no one deserves to feel so shitty. Maybe you should look at your own shit before you go and make unreasonable accusations about the people that are trying to help people deal with theirs.
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Nihilanthicus's live journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nihilanthic/ (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nihilanthic/)
Aug.8th...particularly sad.
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I also graduated from Carlbrook...in may of 2005, so about three months ago. I would attest to how positive this program is, and what a good experience it would be for any teenager really, but especially one who is doing drugs, isn't doing well in school, isn't cooperating, etc. It did a lot for me and for my family, and is actually a lot different than most therapeutic boarding schools. The schools the nihil guy is describing sound like lock downs...carlbrook is really well balanced as far as school and emotional growth go, and they definitely DO NOT brainwash you. a huge part of the school is letting you find your own answers, they don't tell you what to think...they give you the tools to figure out what's right for you and your life. this guy does not know what he's talking about...you don't have much information on the school and i would personally listen to graduates and parents of alumni when trying to figure out what's right for a kid who needs to get sent away. all i can tell you is that i, too, am going to one of the best schools in the country...bryn mawr...and, at the risk of sounding corny, it gave me my life back. im not perfect, but i deal with my problems a lot better now, and i am sure that i will have a much more successful, happy life after the program. i am much more aware of myself and i don't shut off my emotions, plus i make good choices and know how to surround myself with positive people in my life. so think what you must, but i think that this would be a very good thing for a kid that got sent away to the woods.
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Thanks for the good post, Carlbrook grad. Good luck at Bryn Mawr. My teen left Carlbrook a year before you and has been very successful even though he didn't finish the Carlbrook program.
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I am a graduate from Carlbrook School. This place gave me the second chance that I always needed. I may have not liked it a lot, I mean while you're there you don't really like it. But the friends I made there are eternal, and the lessons about life about respect about love about hope are just what any teenager needs to get through this world today. I have a future now because of Carlbrook. I have my family back and most importantly, I have myself back. I had lost love and respect for myself over the years and when I went to Carlbrook I realized that I deserve better than what I had been giving myself. You see, I have had a lot to deal with in my life, and I don't really want to go into the details, but if Carlbrook hadn't had been there to support me, I don't know where I would be today. Even NOW, I still have Carlbrook. I keep in touch with all of my close friends and staff members. If I need help with anything, I know that they will always be there to support me, NO MATTER what. The most amazing thing about Carlbrook is that there are so many teens there with so many issues and problems that they must deal with, but the school as a whole is just so welcoming. I mean, it doesn't matter what the hell is "wrong" with the kid, everyone is treated equally and with just as much love and compassion as the other. Its like no matter what has gone on in your past, its your past and you need to work through it because you've got a future to live and that future could change the world, even if its just a little. This school is based on integrity, yea, but it is also based on a strong foundation of friendship and love and hope, and if anyone says differently then they obviously have no clue what they are talking about and should just butt out of something that they don't even have first hand experiance with. I promise, this school has opened so many doors for me and helped me realize the potential I have. I hope you seriously consider Carlbrook. Its not only a beautiful campus but it is also a beautiful family. I still consider it my home away from home.
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Ok, so all of the grads are posting something on here because they care. Thank god, people care. When it comes down to it, its about love. Love of life, love of understanding, of peace, of people. Its simple...this is what I learned at Carlbrook, how to trust myself in a world full of people that dont want me to, in a world full of people that trust no one. How to love myself and love others. its simple. Some un-trusting person is probably reading these replies and thinking "God, these people are really under cover Carlbrook staff, trying to brainwash the world" This whole thing, is so human of us, to bash one of the things in this world that is tring to love and help. Because Carlbrook isnt normal, and people dont like the unfamiliar. So if you dont understand, you will never unless you attend Carlbrook yourself or let your son or daughter go there if they need it, hopefully they wont. This school is the definition of beauty and trust, forgivness and hope.
Ps...Likayou is a strong woman, not some brainwashed freak, she knows what she is talking about!
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I am an alumni, i graduated in December of 04. And i think that dude needs to shut the hell up, he has no idea what he is talking about. You cant really say things about carlbrook until you actually expierience it. :flame: i was sent to carlbrook for various things. From sneaking out, skipping school, i thought i was pregnant, i ran away, i always lied. I left with honor, and with a sense of direction. I was able to get comfortable enough to admit why and realize why i did certain things and acted in a certain way. My dad and i never really got along before i went to carlbrook and now he is like one of my best friends. i have the best friends i have ever had at that school, ones i will have forever. Some of them have written on here. ITs like one huge family, that just tries to take you back to a simpiler time and work your way back and figure out why you started to do some bad things. For example for me it was when my parents got divorced i started to feel like i was alone and not loved, so i started lashing out at my parents and not caring about much of anything and one thing led to another. Thats what carlbrook does it takes you through those steps and you work with your parents in straitening things out and so they can understand and they can work too. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. I think in a way every child should go through some of program like this. And that person who keeps commenting who doesnt knoew what they are talking about please stop i take offense to it.
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I think maybe the reason some people in this thread are getting bent out of shape about Carlbrook is because the dean of Carlbrook is Tim Brace, an old faculty alum from the CEDU schools.
It might have been mentioned in this thread already, though. I read through it and didn't see it, but I may have missed it.
Ultimately, it's about choosing the lesser of many evils, in some cases. Maybe it will take a few years for Carlbrook alum to come out and say "God I hated that school, it was totally screwed up.", since the school seems to be rather new, or maybe they won't come out at all, if the school is really ok.
Maybe Tim managed to take what little good there was out of the CEDU experience and apply it to another school, without all of the other abusive, humiliating crap that went along with it, who knows? I will say, some of the student testimonials I have read about Carlbrook do sound a little on the brainwashed side, but that doesn't worry me. It's nothing a little all night college partying and a few keggers and maybe some sticky, red bud won't fix, if the school is truly as mild as everyone from the place says it is.
As for the "no locks on the doors" argument, RMA and CEDU didn't have locks on their doors, either. They didn't need them. There are other ways to keep kids in line than by pure brute force, that can be just as dysfunctional.
I'm not saying Carlbook is guilty of any wrongdoing or not, because I didn't go there, and I've never been there. But my point is that the "no locks on doors" argument holds no water in my book.
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Tim is highly respected at Carlbrook. However, he is not the one in charge. That would be Grant Price, a Cascade alum, and his partner Justin Merritt, another Cascade alum and a Harvard grad.
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what does tim have to do with anything? Tim is great; everyone loves him and he does a lot for a lot of families and their kids.
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Carlbrook isnt the place brainwashing kids, its the place the dismantles the brainwashing that kids get from MTV, or video games or society telling them they are bad. The reason why these kids may sound a little brainwashed is because they speak the pure truth, and have found something that most people dont ever understand.
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Carlbrook uses confrontational "workshops" and it has connections to CEDU.
What more do you people need to see that that place is dangerous?
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The workshops are not confrontational in a negative way and there are no connections to CEDU. People move around a lot in the industry. You call that connections????
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Wow, there sure are a lot of ex-Carlbrook people here who have gotten awfully frothy about their program being attacked, (or even questioned, by some of the more mild posters.) You guys certainly did come out fighting.
What's so threatening about people seeing things a little bit differently? Why take such offense? If they didn't go there and don't know what they are talking about, why not just say "Psh, whatever, these idiots have no idea what they are saying." and let it go at that? I mean, I understand the testimonials about how great your school is, I'm more talking about how heated it gets when people question the program. (Whether they are accurate about it or not.)
Seriously, what do you care what other people think?
Where did all these Carlbrook people come from, all of the sudden, anyway? Curious...
Should the Fornit's people start a Carlbrook forum, ya think? Just for shits n' giggles, and to piss people off?
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Congrats on the ad hominem bullshit. Its not impressing anyone except those who are already gone.
Yeah, my life is hard, whoopie shit... that means nothing. 1+1=2 regardless of who says it, and I dont care who sees me bitching in my LJ. Its what its for - if you feel bad you can bitch and whine all you want to vent, and then move on with life.
BTW, all youre doing is dodging what Ive had to say, and turning around to attack me. I dont care if *YOU* are convinced otherwise, but anyone with a brain and an education can see what youre doing. Im presenting facts, and you're saying that Im messed up mentally and need help to get through it.
I need my dad to stop taking money from my mother, I need transportation that doesnt require constant maintainance, I need a steady job, and I need the stress my dad is putting upon my family lifted, NOT sunshine blown up my ass in a seminar to feel better about it, and then run around spewing a bunch of bullshit about how everyone has to 'experience' something to understand it. I dont want a bunch of lies, I want my REALITY to improve and Im working towards that.
Now, back to the topic instead of more ad hominem bullshit :roll: the way all the carlbrook defenders are acting is the way people from LGA seminars act to a "t". NO details, no facts, no substance, just a lot of words and vagueness. Basically, blowing smoke and saying you have to experience to get it. Its a 'workshop', not drugs or the afterlife!
So, when I accuse Carlbrook of being just a front for seminars which is all about emotionally breaking people down, pulling out all their personal shit, being confrontational, and taking advantage of the psychological regression that results from hours and hours of that emotionally punishing bullshit... what do they do? They talk about 'feelings' instead of facts, they say you cant understand it unless you experience it, and then they CONFRONT me with my own personal shit.
That is an LGA, and a cult (theyre inseperable) in a nutshell, folks. Read up!
Yeah, my life is stressful and shitty, but the truth is the truth, regardless of who says it, and violating my mind and my innermost thoughts (Which you call being out of your comfort zone) to fill me up with bullshit and destroy my ability to think critically and replace it with 'feelings' and 'emotions' and 'experiences' and make me into some boneheaded zombie-hippy is bullshit.
Quick! Go play "Desperado" and pull yourself back into that reduced state before I make you think too hard!
Trying to discredit everything I say as if we're required to accept what the workshop facilitators say as the gospel-truth (and it is, to you!) without saying why, and without backing it up, isn't going to work. ADULTS, especially in the REAL WORLD, ARE critical, DO require facts, evidence, and proof of what you say, not just "accept what we say because we went through some secretive experience".
Id wager the vast majority of parents who were looking for help for their kid, if they WERENT terrified and being manipulated by a program salesperson, and saw the facts of what goes on instead of having it revealed to them after the child is put in there, would choose out of this. Disinformation, or simply a lack of it, isn't selling this on me. Present facts instead of attacking me (We're NOT in one of your confrontational seminars, and youre not going to humiliate me) and saying "oh, you gotta experience it".
Now, for those who read this all the way down, sorry Im so long winded, but I had a lot of points to make. I speak of facts, they speak of feelings and shun criticial thought and facts! I say theyre acting like a cult and they go and start ad-hominem attacks on me because I have a stressful personal life and do their damnest to act like one. Whoever kindles the flames of intolerance in America is lighting a fire underneath his own home.
--Harold E. Stassen, 1947
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On 2005-08-08 10:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Another point- no one is locked up at Carlbrook. You can walk down the road anytime. "
Hyde School in Maine could say the same thing.
They just told your parents to throw you out
on the street if you didn't like Hyde.It sucks when decent, hardworking people get screwed over like that. Because that means pricks like us don?t stand a chance.
Jim S. watching the devastation of the recent tsunami on the television at JR?s
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Mind games, threats, coersion, lies, etc - all of those can keep someone in a program just as good as physical locks.
Plus, they could simply not have a lock on it, and if someone ran off they'd get jumped by orderlies or higher level kiddos and drug back inside.
Oh, and if they do run off, and get caught, where are they sent to instead? A "harsher program?"
P.S. - just why is it that people are starting to be convinced this is necessary or even a good idea? People got by without programs for a long time and the vast majority of the world does too. All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow.
--H.L. Mencken
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You guys asked for program names, insisting that if there were some good programs out there you wanted to hear about them. So-you were given Carlbrook. Oh wait- it can't possibly be good. All these grads are just brainwashed! The posts reflect a caring attitude by the staff, openness to individual growth and letting kids find their own way within the bounds of a safe structure. You severely hurt your credibility and show marked immaturity by refusing to accept that maybe, just MAYBE the folks that run Carlbrook may have hit on a good model. Is it perfect? Not at all. What is? My kid attended the school and didn't complete the program for reasons unique to him. However, he came away with some important tools and some great friends- teens and adults. My kid resisted a lot of the therapy, but loved the workshops. I fought the school on several fronts and disagreed with some of the techniques. However, there was absolutely no abuse, brainwashing, withholding of food or any of the things you seem to think are part of every program. There are some staff there that could be better, but there is also the strongest therapeutic team in the industry.
You are hearing from people who actually know what they are talking about. They actually HAVE experience with this program and are not simply bashing any and all program based on a possible (in most cases none at all) experience with ONE program.
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On 2005-08-22 12:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The workshops are not confrontational in a negative way and there are no connections to CEDU. People move around a lot in the industry. You call that connections????"
Yes!Being sleepy can impair someone's ability to do thier job. People
can sleep at home and come to the job with sleepiness still in their system. The sleepiness can still be there long after the employee has slept. When someone is found to be sleepy on the job, they can claim that they went to sleep the night before. The only solution to this problem is to ban employees from sleeping.
--Arthur Slabosky
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On 2005-08-22 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Where did all these Carlbrook people come from, all of the sudden, anyway? Curious..."
"all these carlbrook people"? you must mean karen :flame: and her multiple personalities and ben's "i'm a big crybaby" dad :cry: . that's about "all" of them.
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So- you just can't stand it that people are defending a program so you have to try to discredit the posts by claiming that they belong to just a couple of people. Sorry-these are mainly KIDS posting- not Karen and Ben whoever.
After YOU go and spend 14 or 15 months at Carlbrook and graduate from the program, then you can talk about it. Until then, shut the fuck up.
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ha ha ha...you got a great education and great therapy there. way to handle criticism! :nworthy:
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On 2005-08-23 14:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So- you just can't stand it that people are defending a program so you have to try to discredit the posts by claiming that they belong to just a couple of people. Sorry-these are mainly KIDS posting- not Karen and Ben whoever.
After YOU go and spend 14 or 15 months at Carlbrook and graduate from the program, then you can talk about it. Until then, shut the fuck up."
The more you spew your BS about how you have to experience it to get it, instead of explaining things and accepting criticism, you act more and more like someone who went through an LGA.
Oh, and btw, nobody here is going to ever tolerante LGA-centric programs, even if the programs arent 'abusive' - Mostly because LGAs themselves are what we the problem with anyway! And your experience this, emotion/feeling that, NO CRITICISM OR CRITICAL THOUGHT!!!! type crap, really doesnt do anything but prove us right!
Get out of feeling mode and back into thinking mode and actually engage your mind, and us, not just this experiential BS that you expect normal people to accept. You'll get a lot farther on this forum :wink: Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
Andrew Tannenbaum
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On 2005-08-23 06:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You guys asked for program names, insisting that if there were some good programs out there you wanted to hear about them. So-you were given Carlbrook. Oh wait- it can't possibly be good. All these grads are just brainwashed! The posts reflect a caring attitude by the staff, openness to individual growth and letting kids find their own way within the bounds of a safe structure. You severely hurt your credibility and show marked immaturity by refusing to accept that maybe, just MAYBE the folks that run Carlbrook may have hit on a good model. Is it perfect? Not at all. What is? My kid attended the school and didn't complete the program for reasons unique to him. However, he came away with some important tools and some great friends- teens and adults. My kid resisted a lot of the therapy, but loved the workshops. I fought the school on several fronts and disagreed with some of the techniques. However, there was absolutely no abuse, brainwashing, withholding of food or any of the things you seem to think are part of every program. There are some staff there that could be better, but there is also the strongest therapeutic team in the industry.
You are hearing from people who actually know what they are talking about. They actually HAVE experience with this program and are not simply bashing any and all program based on a possible (in most cases none at all) experience with ONE program."
I'm really confused by this post. You fought the school on several fronts and disagreed with several of their techniques, but you thought it was a good program, yes? I am very interested to know what those fronts and techniques were that you disagreed with.
Also, my school didn't withold food, either. We were fed very well, actually. We had to be. We needed that energy to do what we had to do.
Look, I have no idea if the school is good or not. It could be a great school, ok? It's just that my alarms go off when I find out that ex-CEDU/RMA staff and Cascade staff are not only working there, but are DEANS there!
I can't speak for the Cascade guy, because I didn't know him, and I didn't go to Cascade, but I did read testimonials from the place, and it seemed pretty bad, (especially since I haven't found very many positive testimonials) and it got shut down under some very weird circumstances, and I know that some of the staff that went to work for Cascade came from the school I went to. (CEDU/RMA)
Someone said something about "people moving around a lot in the industry." Well, I question the backgrounds of some of the people who are moving. (Not only that, I question the whole industry.) Don't you find it interesting that Tim Brace's bio on the Carlbrook site makes no mention of CEDU/RMA and Grant Price's makes no mention of Cascade? Do they (or someone else) want to distance themseves from those programs, or do they (or someone else) not want prospective parents to find out about it?
Maybe it's just coincidence, though, because they are allowed only a limited amount of space to convey a lot of information, but still. Do you think whoever wrote the webpage may have had a clue about this, or were the faculty allowed to write their own bios?
Interesting to note: I've also seen ex-CEDU/RMA staff bios on other school sites where they are now working, and they don't bother to mention CEDU/RMA in their bios either. (I think maybe one of them did.)
I'd be interested to know how Tim feels about RMA/CEDU now... he sure loved the program when I was there. But then again, so did I.
One thing you said was very key here:
"You are hearing from people who actually know what they are talking about. They actually HAVE experience with this program and are not simply bashing any and all program based on a possible (in most cases none at all) experience with ONE program"
Yes, we are hearing from people who have been in this program, but who have only been out of this program maybe a few months to a year, so they have very little perspective. I'm seeing dates ranging from 2005 to 2004. Nothing earlier. (And if I start hearing from oldies only after this post, now that I have mentioned it, it will seem suspicious, too.)
I know that for me, it took me several years to deprogram myself, as well as therapy, to get over RMA and really get a clue about things. Before that, I was as gung-ho about RMA as these people were, and would have said the same things as all of the ex-Carlbrook posters in this thread. After a few years, the story will be different, possibly. With RMA/CEDU, there were people who hated it, people who still loved it, and people like me, who felt that the theraputic aspect was totally abusive and dysfunctional, but could give props to the fact that it kept me out of trouble and helped me prepare for college, so view it as a mixed bag.
I'm not expecting Carlbrook to be like RMA, and I'm really not applying the CEDU model to it, because I honestly don't know what it's like there. But I question its program based on its choice of personnel, and it sounded like at one point, you questioned its program, too.
I hope, for the sake of your kid, that the school wasn't a bad place to go, though, or at the very least, it was mild to moderate in terms of the loopyness in terms of therapy. But like I said, my alarm bells go off in terms of some of the faculty who are in charge.
However, hopefully, it's not a bad place to be.
I also question how intensely defensive you are about all of this. No offense, but are you really a parent?
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And also, the argument that "You must have *experienced* something to critique it." is flawed to its very core.
If that were the case, investigative journalism would be next to impossible, and in fact, almost any kind of constructive critique would be next to impossible. Critique is not based on personal experience, it is based on fact. i.e. these are proven to be dysfunctional therapies because the students suffer from these kinds of symptoms afterwards. Sure, it may spawn out of someone's personal experience, but they can't say that nobody understands because they didn't experience it themselves.
I mean, would you really buy it if someone said "You must have *experienced* what it's like to be a white supremacist, and be raised as a white supremacist, to truly be able to critique our ideology." No!
(And look, I'm not saying Carlbrook has ANYTHING to do with Nazis, so don't go there, ok?)
It touches on Nihl's comment about "ad hominem" arguments. That "you have to know how we are feeling to really understand what this place is like!"
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I suspect the omission of the Cascade references had something to do with a non-compete arrangement at the time of the staff's departure from Cascade.
The point isn't whether you need to have actual experience to have an opinion, but that on this forum ALL programs are lumped together as bad when most of you are not looking at facts and have no reason to make this judgement.
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On 2005-08-24 05:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I suspect the omission of the Cascade references had something to do with a non-compete arrangement at the time of the staff's departure from Cascade.
The point isn't whether you need to have actual experience to have an opinion, but that on this forum ALL programs are lumped together as bad when most of you are not looking at facts and have no reason to make this judgement. "
Well, I'm looking at the fact that ex-CEDU and Cascade staff are Deans there. And that is cause for concern. That is a fact. And there is a shitload of information on the web you can find out about CEDU/RMA and Cascade if you want to. (More CEDU than Cascade)
I would reccomend the periodicals, since they would be the most impartial. (Such as the Idaho Spokespan/Idaho Press for RMA) I'm not sure what the names of the newspapers are in the Running Springs area.
I still haven't said outright that your school is nutty or screwed up, either. I'm just saying that their choice of personnel is suspect.
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Carlbrook has the many of the usual suspects working there, and it's closed from the outside world.
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It's not too closed to the outside world. The kids sure are getting into good colleges.
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I am a graduate from the Carlbrook School. I am 17 and graduted the program with the Mu class in July of 2005... i am staying for another 3 weeks to finish up my last credits for high school. If you have any questions, please ask. I wont lie to you; there are a lot of negatives about the school, but the truth of the matter is that it turned my life around and has helped me incredibly. i would personally recommend it.
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amen... Lambda/Mu rules! (you know who this is)
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Genpollux- what would you say are the negatives and the positives about Carlbrook?
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I have a slightly different perspective on Carlbrook. I never heard of this school until today. I am a LMSW (Licensed Master of Social Work) and found a job listing for Carlbrook on the NASW (National Association of Social Workers) website. The job advertisement was misleading: it made Carlbrook sound like a boarding school for the intellectually gifted student. I was shocked that they are willing to consider "MSWs in progress". That means they are willing to hire unlicensed social workers.
When I went to the Carlbrook website, I learned that the therapists / counselors are called "advisors." Many have graduated from unaccredited schools of psychology and social work. Looks like lots of internet degrees from universities in the Carribean. Few, if any, seem to have credentials that would get them a state license to practice psychology or social work.
Then I read about the Wilderness Therapy prerequisite. Wilderness Therapy is NOT research proven effective. And the benefits are highly questionable. I would never refer any child or family to such a program.
Next, I read about the Dean's experience at CEDU and Cascade here.
This all amounts to one thing for me: Something smells fishy. I am going to write to the NASW about my concerns.
Perhaps Carlbrook is a decent place. But I won't attach my name to this type of organization. Too many red flags.
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On 2005-09-13 11:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have a slightly different perspective on Carlbrook. I never heard of this school until today. I am a LMSW (Licensed Master of Social Work) and found a job listing for Carlbrook on the NASW (National Association of Social Workers) website. The job advertisement was misleading: it made Carlbrook sound like a boarding school for the intellectually gifted student. I was shocked that they are willing to consider "MSWs in progress". That means they are willing to hire unlicensed social workers.
When I went to the Carlbrook website, I learned that the therapists / counselors are called "advisors." Many have graduated from unaccredited schools of psychology and social work. Looks like lots of internet degrees from universities in the Carribean. Few, if any, seem to have credentials that would get them a state license to practice psychology or social work.
Then I read about the Wilderness Therapy prerequisite. Wilderness Therapy is NOT research proven effective. And the benefits are highly questionable. I would never refer any child or family to such a program.
Next, I read about the Dean's experience at CEDU and Cascade here.
This all amounts to one thing for me: Something smells fishy. I am going to write to the NASW about my concerns.
Perhaps Carlbrook is a decent place. But I won't attach my name to this type of organization. Too many red flags."
What do you have to say now, big-mouth Karen and big-mouth Ben's Dad? Gonna call a few names and throw a fit? Would you like to refute any of these statements?
Face it, you sent your kid to quacks. Web-footed, waddling quacks. And you paid a bundle for it. Sucker.
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I am not a parent, but I checked the Carlbrook website and I don't see any evidence of internet degrees. I see degrees from major universities such as U of Maine, Furman, U of Kentucky and Wash U. This appears to be a faculty with pretty impressive credentials, which doesn't say anything about the BM program or how the staff interacts with the kids.
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On 2005-09-13 11:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have a slightly different perspective on Carlbrook. I never heard of this school until today. I am a LMSW (Licensed Master of Social Work) and found a job listing for Carlbrook on the NASW (National Association of Social Workers) website. The job advertisement was misleading: it made Carlbrook sound like a boarding school for the intellectually gifted student. I was shocked that they are willing to consider "MSWs in progress". That means they are willing to hire unlicensed social workers.
When I went to the Carlbrook website, I learned that the therapists / counselors are called "advisors." Many have graduated from unaccredited schools of psychology and social work. Looks like lots of internet degrees from universities in the Carribean. Few, if any, seem to have credentials that would get them a state license to practice psychology or social work.
Then I read about the Wilderness Therapy prerequisite. Wilderness Therapy is NOT research proven effective. And the benefits are highly questionable. I would never refer any child or family to such a program.
Next, I read about the Dean's experience at CEDU and Cascade here.
This all amounts to one thing for me: Something smells fishy. I am going to write to the NASW about my concerns.
Perhaps Carlbrook is a decent place. But I won't attach my name to this type of organization. Too many red flags."
Thank you so much! Someone with credentials who actually cares what's going on in the for profit, teen help industry and is not afraid (or too busy) to express their concerns.
And yes, you are right. Something stinks allright when kids are being shortchanged by facilities who can not (or will not) hire properly credentialed staff. As you say, Carlbrook may be a "decent" place, but I agree, there are too many red flags.
Good luck, hope you will keep us updated.
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http://carlbrook.org/faculty/index.htm#advise (http://carlbrook.org/faculty/index.htm#advise)
What is wrong with the credentials of this advising staff?
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On 2005-09-13 11:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have a slightly different perspective on Carlbrook. I never heard of this school until today. I am a LMSW (Licensed Master of Social Work) and found a job listing for Carlbrook on the NASW (National Association of Social Workers) website. The job advertisement was misleading: it made Carlbrook sound like a boarding school for the intellectually gifted student. I was shocked that they are willing to consider "MSWs in progress". That means they are willing to hire unlicensed social workers.
When I went to the Carlbrook website, I learned that the therapists / counselors are called "advisors." Many have graduated from unaccredited schools of psychology and social work. Looks like lots of internet degrees from universities in the Carribean. Few, if any, seem to have credentials that would get them a state license to practice psychology or social work.
Then I read about the Wilderness Therapy prerequisite. Wilderness Therapy is NOT research proven effective. And the benefits are highly questionable. I would never refer any child or family to such a program.
Next, I read about the Dean's experience at CEDU and Cascade here.
This all amounts to one thing for me: Something smells fishy. I am going to write to the NASW about my concerns.
Perhaps Carlbrook is a decent place. But I won't attach my name to this type of organization. Too many red flags."
This was exactly the problem with the CEDU schools. The faculty were uncertified. Had little or no experience, (except in screaming.) It all came as a reaction to the psychiatric community/industry of the 60s, I believe. That was Mel's vision. He didn't want "stodgy Docs" getting in the way, he wanted something "looser", I guess. It totally reminds me of that Brad Goodman line from the Simpsons. "I don't have any 'credentials', but I have a 'pHD' in pain."
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On 2005-09-13 17:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://carlbrook.org/faculty/index.htm#advise
What is wrong with the credentials of this advising staff?"
Well, you can start with the very first name, Tim Brace. He has experience working at some of the most abusive programs in the "business," and many children have claimed that he has abused them directly.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-05 16:26 ]
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The link was to the Advising Staff and the issue was credentials- i.e. degrees etc.
Dysfunction, I seriously doubt that you can support your claim of abuse allegations against Time Brace INDIVIDUALLY. Once again, you are speaking out of the wrong hole in your body and slandering someone.
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On 2005-09-14 05:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The link was to the Advising Staff and the issue was credentials- i.e. degrees etc.
Dysfunction, I seriously doubt that you can support your claim of abuse allegations against Time Brace INDIVIDUALLY. Once again, you are speaking out of the wrong hole in your body and slandering someone."
God, you people are fucking tedious. I didn't slander anyone (if I did anything wrong - which I did NOT - it would be libel).
I never claimed anything. All I said is that he worked at two facilities well-known for child abuse (both have been the subject of lawsuits/charges - all documented).
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer
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On 2005-09-14 05:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The link was to the Advising Staff and the issue was credentials- i.e. degrees etc.
Dysfunction, I seriously doubt that you can support your claim of abuse allegations against Time Brace INDIVIDUALLY. Once again, you are speaking out of the wrong hole in your body and slandering someone."
Would it make you feel better if the credentials said "Tim Brace, M.A. Child Abuse"? Who cares what someone's degree is if they're a child abuser? You seem to think it's okay to hurt children, as long as the abuser has a degree.
That's because you are a DEAF, DUMB and BLIND supporter of child abuse.
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"Tim Brace. He has experience working at some of the most abusive programs in the "business," and many children have claimed that he has abused them directly. Lawsuits are pending currently... "
This is what you said. Differs from "All I said is that he worked at two facilities well-known for child abuse (both have been the subject of lawsuits/charges - all documented). "
Who is "fucking dumb"? Oh-that would by YOU!
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Um, no, it's you that is dumb. You sent your kid to some quacks to be abused, not me.
Show me where I said "Tim Brace is a child abuser." I never said that. I never libeled anyone. You're the moron who thinks that I can be sued. That proves exactly how moronic you are.
Again, serve up some papers or get a some new material for your monologue, retard.
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LMSW here again. Let me clarify about the credentialing of clinical staff.
Some psychology and social work programs are NOT accredited by the APA or the Social Work Counsel of Education. This means that someone can obtain the degree (MS in Psychology or the MSW) and NOT be eligible for state licensure to practice. Most Master of Psychology degrees do not qualify someone to be an independent practioner, and therefore they cannot be licensed by the state. You usually need a PhD in psychology or a Master of Social Work to be licensed as an independent practitioner. Carlbrook only lists 1 licensed practitioner, who happens to be a PhD in psychology. This means the majority of clinical staff at Carlbrook are unlicensed, hence unregulated by the state.
Some "advisors" listed on Carlbrook's website (clinical staff) have degrees from internet universities (ie: Argosy University). These degrees are total BS. Any program worth a grain of salt would not hire clinical staff with these questionable, nonlicensed credentials.
Sorry if I sound like an education snob. But I am not impressed by any of the institutions listed under the names of the advisors. Radford University? Appalachin State University? Francis Marion University? These schools are not in the top 50, maybe even not the top 200. You probably need a GED and half a brain cell to qualify for admission. Just because someone has a degree does not mean they are QUALIFIED to be a clinician. Clinical skills are not attached to a diploma. Any warm body can pass a couple exams, write a couple crappy papers, and purchase a degree.
Can people here please help me gather info about the connection (if any) between CEDU and Academy at Swift River / Cascade School / Mt. Bachelor Academy? Also, are these schools tied with the Mormons? I am trying to write a letter to the NASW and need more info. Thank you.
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Anon, if Carlbrook is carrying on the CEDU tradition, the real qualification for staff positions is that they have completed a Synanon style program themselves. And, having accepted the myth that it saved their lives, are willing to inflict it onto their captives and to lie, cheat or do whatever it takes to cover for and protect their program. Those bogus degrees are usually acquired for the express purpose of impressing gullible parents who wouldn't know a decent prep school from a POW camp. (litterally!)
Occasionally, a couple of them will get miffed at each other and all kinds of secrets start spilling into the public domain (WWASP v PURE, for example). So that's about the best place to go looking for the names and other facts and details you're looking for. Just search up terms like suite, filing, transcript in combo w/ the sir names you're interested in.
That's all marijuana is, after all. It's just a plant, a common and easily grown one at that. In many cultures, its consumption was lawful for millennia. And in all that time, the bond between thugs, mayhem, murder and marijuana that we see today did not exist.
Dan Gardner, CanWest News Service
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There's plenty of information on this website to highlight the connections of these institutions. You can start with Tim Brace. He's worked for several abusive programs including CEDU, Mt. Bachelor and ASW and tried (may have succeeded) in opening a WWASP facility in Puerto Rico.
You're dead-on about the credentials. A degree is worthless unless it is from an ACCREDITED institution. These "programs" are rife with employees with fake degrees from unaccredited "colleges." The problem is that the parents who send their kids to these places don't care. To them, if there's a degree it's legitimate and the degree holder is competent. It's part of the dogmatic nature of the program culture.
I worked at one of the industry's "flagship" programs where the clinical director had a phony PhD from an unaccredited diploma mill. For $5000 anyone (literally ANYONE with a mailing address) can be a "doctor."
Please continue to post what you find and how things shake out...
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On 2005-09-13 16:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I see degrees from major universities such as U of Maine, Furman, U of Kentucky and Wash U. This appears to be a faculty with pretty impressive credentials, which doesn't say anything about the BM program or how the staff interacts with the kids."
I am a licensed clinical practitioner with over 10 years experience in the mental health field. Sorry, I disagree. These schools do not have impressive clinical programs. They rank at the bottom. A program that charges around $5000 per month per student could afford to hire seasoned clinicians who have graduated from top clinical programs (ie: Columbia University, Smith College, Stamford, UCLA, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, Boston College, Fordham University, NYU, etc.). Carlbrook is not a prisoner of low pay Medicaid reimbursement, like most programs. Yet, for some reason, this program hires the bottom of the barrel. Perhaps their budget favors the "Board of Regents" staff over the clinical staff? This would explain the unimpressive clinical credentials.
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On 2005-09-14 08:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-13 16:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I see degrees from major universities such as U of Maine, Furman, U of Kentucky and Wash U. This appears to be a faculty with pretty impressive credentials, which doesn't say anything about the BM program or how the staff interacts with the kids."
I am a licensed clinical practitioner with over 10 years experience in the mental health field. Sorry, I disagree. These schools do not have impressive clinical programs. They rank at the bottom. A program that charges around $5000 per month per student could afford to hire seasoned clinicians who have graduated from top clinical programs (ie: Columbia University, Smith College, Stamford, UCLA, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, Boston College, Fordham University, NYU, etc.). Carlbrook is not a prisoner of low pay Medicaid reimbursement, like most programs. Yet, for some reason, this program hires the bottom of the barrel. Perhaps their budget favors the "Board of Regents" staff over the clinical staff? This would explain the unimpressive clinical credentials."
Thanks for your insight.
These programs have low-paid, un- or underqualified "clinicians" who generally can't work at other more reputable places for a couple of reasons. One, the "treatment" provided has been shown by study after study after study to be ineffective at best, and outright damaging at worst. And two, they exist solely for the purpose of making a huge profit.
When one understands these facts, the reasoning behind their operations strategy becomes painfully obvious.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-09-14 09:25 ]
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On 2005-09-14 08:38:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"There's plenty of information on this website to highlight the connections of these institutions. You can start with Tim Brace. He's worked for several abusive programs including CEDU, Mt. Bachelor and ASW and tried (may have succeeded) in opening a WWASP facility in Puerto Rico.
You're dead-on about the credentials. A degree is worthless unless it is from an ACCREDITED institution. These "programs" are rife with employees with fake degrees from unaccredited "colleges." The problem is that the parents who send their kids to these places don't care. To them, if there's a degree it's legitimate and the degree holder is competent. It's part of the dogmatic nature of the program culture.
I worked at one of the industry's "flagship" programs where the clinical director had a phony PhD from an unaccredited diploma mill. For $5000 anyone (literally ANYONE with a mailing address) can be a "doctor."
Please continue to post what you find and how things shake out...
"
TIM BRACE EYEING NEW OPPORTUNITIES
After seven years with increasingly responsible positions with the company, Tim Brace is leaving his position as Executive Director of Educational Services at Aspen Youth Services. In a phone discussion with Woodbury Reports, Brace said ?The future holds many opportunities in this arena and I intend to be a part of the movement to reach more families and children as well as enhance the quality of services provided. I am grateful to the many that have supported the efforts I have been involved with and who have shared time with Kathleen and our family. I look forward to working with you in the future.?
Brace?s 20-year career working with teens with behavioral/emotional problems spans the development of this unique industry. He has influenced the emergence of emotional growth schools and programs from a little-known alternative to mainstream psychiatric hospitalization, to a widely accepted and respected self-developing network of residential schools and programs.
Almost exactly 20 years ago, in 1980, CEDU School in Running Springs, California hired Brace based on his innate ability, almost in spite of his newly acquired Masters of Counseling degree. The school was working hard to gain acceptance as a viable alternative to the ?diagnose and medicate,? method for working with teens with behavioral/emotional problems, which was prevalent at the time. Brace became a leader in this rapidly growing school that was striving to differentiate themselves from ?business as usual.? He worked consecutively as Counselor, Family Head, Assistant Director and Director of Rocky Mountain Academy in Bonners Ferry, Idaho, then returned to CEDU as Headmaster.
In 1993, Brace left CEDU and joined what is now known as Aspen Youth Services. He served as Executive Director/Headmaster of Mount Bachelor Academy in Bend, Oregon, a school founded on principles similar to those of CEDU, as evidenced by their expanding number of schools serving similar populations of teens with behavioral/emotional problems as those served by CEDU. Brace was instrumental in the growth of Aspen Youth Services: he founded Swift River Academy in Massachusetts in 1997, served as Executive Director of Residential Schools, and most recently held the position of Executive Director of Educational Services for Aspen Youth Services.
Reminiscing on the phone, he observed that 20 years ago when he started with CEDU, the options for parents wanting something other than residential psychiatric or treatment programs were very few. He considered himself very fortunate to land one of the few jobs available that offered a different vision, that of serving kids? needs, rather than just addressing their diagnoses. Now, 20 years later, as he looks at the opportunities open to him, he sees almost unlimited opportunity in a rapidly expanding field. Where 20 years ago CEDU was virtually a voice crying in the wilderness, now he sees a large number of schools and programs growing and expanding their impact. Opportunities are heightened also by the large number of supporting businesses growing up around this network, such as consultants of all types making a living directly helping parents and bringing their expertise to schools and programs. This developing network of schools and programs is maturing, recently even forming their own organization called the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs (NATSAP), which Brace was instrumental in forming.
Woodbury Reports wishes Tim Brace Good Luck, and has full confidence that the best is yet to come.
Tim Brace can be contacted at
3011 NW Golf view Dr., Bend, Oregon 97701
541-382-2845
[email protected]
Copyright © 2000, Woodbury Reports, Inc. (This article may be reproduced without prior approval if the copyright notice and proper publication and author attribution accompanies the copy.)
Site and content copyright © 2000 by Woodbury Reports Inc. All rights reserved.
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Dysfunction Junction & Antigen,
Thank you for the info. It will help with my research for the letter of complaint. I am appalled that the NASW would advertise a job opening for this type of program. It demonstrates that a large portion of American society is clueless about these teen programs. I plan on cancelling my NASW membership, if the Carlbrook job advertisement is not removed from their website.
I have strong feelings about these teen programs, and have familiarity with Synanon based crap. I worked (pre-grad school) for an atrotious TC in upstate NY. It was an eye opener. I made several CPS reports, due to witnessing some abusive stuff. But this did nothing to shake the system. It seems that many of these programs remain in existence due to tight political connections, good lawyers, and lots of coin. It makes me sick.
LMSW Woman
(Who keeps ranting about credentials of clinicians)
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On 2005-09-14 09:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Dysfunction Junction & Antigen,
Thank you for the info. It will help with my research for the letter of complaint. I am appalled that the NASW would advertise a job opening for this type of program. It demonstrates that a large portion of American society is clueless about these teen programs. I plan on cancelling my NASW membership, if the Carlbrook job advertisement is not removed from their website.
I have strong feelings about these teen programs, and have familiarity with Synanon based crap. I worked (pre-grad school) for an atrotious TC in upstate NY. It was an eye opener. I made several CPS reports, due to witnessing some abusive stuff. But this did nothing to shake the system. It seems that many of these programs remain in existence due to tight political connections, good lawyers, and lots of coin. It makes me sick.
LMSW Woman
(Who keeps ranting about credentials of clinicians)
"
Hey, no problem. You're correct about why these places stay open. They have a cult-like following led by some real political heavy-hitters such as Melvin Sembler (Bush crony, Ambassador to Italy - Founder of Straight, Inc.) and religious figureheads (Monsignor O'Brien - Daytop).
You said you had experience in a Synanon-type program in upstate NY. I am from upstate NY and worked at Daytop Village ADU in Rhinebeck ten years ago. Would this be the program for which you worked? If so, I can surely understand your disenchantment.
Much involvement these "programs" have with professional agencies (you cite NASW) is derived from fraudulent representation of the program itself. You can blame organizations like NASW for not verifying the information given to them by the programs, but I believe this problem stems from the professional org's expectation of the programs' "good faith" representation rather than any sort of collusion per se. These places do not operate in good faith on any level.
They are notorious for abusing clients, lying to parents/guardians and extracting the maximum dollar from desperate people looking to "save" their children. It's deplorable and disgusting.
Be sure to post what you find, as this site gets hit pretty well by google and other search engines when people are researching programs for placement of a child and any child spared the inevitable psychological abuse is well worth your time.
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Carlbrook is an excellent program with a reputable therapeutic staff. Any parents who are researching this school should go to http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) and post in the program section and ask for information. The information on this site is way off base and posted by disgruntled kids and adults who have no idea what they are talking about.
As you can see from other posts in this forum, these are a bunch of crazies who think all emotional growth programs are abusive.
Do not base any decisions on the crap posted on this site. Visit the school, meet the staff and make an informed decision.
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Wow, I don't think we got such a blatent trolling and dismissal in the last... oh... say 24 hours. Indeed, our surviors have no earthly idea what their talking about, indeed the hundreds of people that post on this site are all full of crap, and we all have a screw lose... maybe we should all just go home. Here is what I think. If enough people cry wolf loud enough, chances are he has shown up.
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On 2005-09-14 11:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook is an excellent program with a reputable therapeutic staff. Any parents who are researching this school should go to http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) and post in the program section and ask for information. The information on this site is way off base and posted by disgruntled kids and adults who have no idea what they are talking about.
As you can see from other posts in this forum, these are a bunch of crazies who think all emotional growth programs are abusive.
Do not base any decisions on the crap posted on this site. Visit the school, meet the staff and make an informed decision."
Read the posts below in regard to the "therapeutic staff" of Carlbrook, heck, look for yourself on their website, and you'll plainly see, as was correctly pointed out by an earlier poster, there is exactly one licensed professional on staff.
Also, you will also clearly see that there are staff (including the "top guy," Tim Brace) that have deep connections to abusive facilities/programs, such as CEDU, which was closed due to the overwhelming costs of lawsuits brought against them and won by abused "students."
The poster who says that the people posting here (LICENSED clinicians and other professional, among others) are "crazy" is, in fact, crazy him/herself. Anyone can look on StrugglingTeens(Parents) themselves, but they need to understand that Lon Woodbury, proprietor, is a former CEDU employee and earns his paychecks by referring Struggling Parents to the selfsame programs listed on his website. It's all a big money-making scam designed to enrich Mr. Woodbury and his sycophants, like this poster, who recieve huge referral fees for getting desperate, exasperated parents to incarcerate their children at facilities like Carlbrook.
Now, that doesn't sound so crazy, does it?
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On 2005-09-14 11:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook is an excellent program with a reputable therapeutic staff. Any parents who are researching this school should go to http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) and post in the program section and ask for information. The information on this site is way off base and posted by disgruntled kids and adults who have no idea what they are talking about.
As you can see from other posts in this forum, these are a bunch of crazies who think all emotional growth programs are abusive.
Do not base any decisions on the crap posted on this site. Visit the school, meet the staff and make an informed decision."
Read the posts below in regard to the "therapeutic staff" of Carlbrook, heck, look for yourself on their website, and you'll plainly see, as was correctly pointed out by an earlier poster, there is exactly one licensed professional on staff.
Also, you will also clearly see that there are staff (including the "top guy," Tim Brace) that have deep connections to abusive facilities/programs, such as CEDU, which was closed due to the overwhelming costs of lawsuits brought against them and won by abused "students."
The poster who says that the people posting here (LICENSED clinicians and other professional, among others) are "crazy" is, in fact, crazy him/herself. Anyone can look on StrugglingTeens(Parents) themselves, but they need to understand that Lon Woodbury, proprietor, is a former CEDU employee and earns his paychecks by referring Struggling Parents to the selfsame programs listed on his website. It's all a big money-making scam designed to enrich Mr. Woodbury and his sycophants, like this poster, who recieve huge referral fees for getting desperate, exasperated parents to incarcerate their children at facilities like Carlbrook.
Now, that doesn't sound so crazy, does it?
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On 2005-09-14 11:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook is an excellent program with a reputable therapeutic staff. Any parents who are researching this school should go to http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) and post in the program section and ask for information. The information on this site is way off base and posted by disgruntled kids and adults who have no idea what they are talking about.
As you can see from other posts in this forum, these are a bunch of crazies who think all emotional growth programs are abusive.
Do not base any decisions on the crap posted on this site. Visit the school, meet the staff and make an informed decision."
The post quoted below is from the same "Carlbrook Parent" who posted above. Talk about your "crazies"! These people are truly nuts and will say anything to try to discredit anyone who criticizes programs. Read on...
***********************************************
"I have attempted to discuss programs with you before, to no avail, because you continue to resort to your "all programs are bad" tape and will never consider any other viewpoint. In fact, numerous people have attempted to discuss specific programs with you, including kids who have attended them. You insist that they are brainwashed.
Anyone reading these threads can easily see what happens when a discussion of specific programs in attempted. You are a one-trick pony, and the "no wonder your kid is so fucked up" record is getting really old. In fact, my kid could never approach the level of dysfunction as you, by your own admission in choosing your name, have attained.
I would worry about you being a parent, but I don't see much chance of that happening because no one would possibly ever be in a relationship with you. I suppose there is the horrible possibility that you could rape someone, but you probably don't leave your computer terminal long enough."
*************************************************
Now who exactly is "crazy"? All together now: NO WONDER YOUR KIDS ARE SO FUCKED UP!
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I posted the recent post, but did not post the older one referenced. Sorry- try again.
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On 2005-09-14 05:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The link was to the Advising Staff and the issue was credentials- i.e. degrees etc.
Dysfunction, I seriously doubt that you can support your claim of abuse allegations against Time Brace INDIVIDUALLY. Once again, you are speaking out of the wrong hole in your body and slandering someone."
Yeah, well I went to Rocky Mountain Academy when Tim Brace was the Dean, and I can tell you, he was certainly verbally abusive. Just like all of the other staff there, in the textbook CEDU style. This normally took place during raps, propheets or workshops. More importantly, I can also state with certainty that he was definitely not qualified to be counseling anyone. I have been in therapy with qualified people, so I can tell the difference. He also really didn't have much insight into teenage development. All he knew about were CEDU bumper sticker slogans and pushing that ideology.
It's weird, cause when you had a normal, rational conversation with him, he seemed to be a normal guy, but once you got in a rap with him, he'd yell at you. All the staff were like that. Some more sadistic than others. He wasn't the worst of them, though. I think Caroline Wolf probably holds that title as the most unqualified and irresponsible. But he certainly shouldn't be counseling troubled teens.
Granted, the CEDU schools were nothing like the Seed or Straight Inc. in terms of levels of abusiveness, but they were still pretty disturbing.
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On 2005-09-14 11:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook is an excellent program with a reputable therapeutic staff. Any parents who are researching this school should go to http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) and post in the program section and ask for information. The information on this site is way off base and posted by disgruntled kids and adults who have no idea what they are talking about.
As you can see from other posts in this forum, these are a bunch of crazies who think all emotional growth programs are abusive.
Do not base any decisions on the crap posted on this site. Visit the school, meet the staff and make an informed decision."
Carlbrook has no business advertising itself as a therapeutic place for kids with emotional and substance abuse issues. For example, they are not licensed by the Virginia Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse. You can look up licensed mental health and substance abuse programs here: http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp (http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp)
Who is crazy? The critics? Not based upon my research! Parents who send kids here do so at their own risk. There is minimal outside oversight at this facility. This program (because it is for-profit and nonreliant upon taxpayer funding, Medicaid, and private insurance) has a lot of freedom to "therapize" kids as they see fit. Carlbrook and its practitioners are not beholden to the same regulations as licensed providers.
They claim to treat kids with emotional problems. Why is there no psychiatrist (MD) on staff? Why is there only 1 licensed clinician in a long list of clinicians ("advisors")?
For $5700+ per month, I could think of research proven effective, safe, and less restrictive ways to treat kids with problems. And the parents would have more money in their pockets.
Emotional growth programs? Wilderness Therapy?They don't teach that garbage in any reputable, ethical, clinical graduate program. Why? Because it is NOT research proven effective.
LMSW Woman
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I would like to hear from former Carlbrook students who believe they were abused in any way or who feel that the staff was lacking in some way.
Please speak up if you are out there. Everything we have here on this thread from parents or students who actually have experience with the program is positive. Maybe this Tim Brace changed???
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On 2005-09-14 15:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I would like to hear from former Carlbrook students who believe they were abused in any way or who feel that the staff was lacking in some way.
Please speak up if you are out there. Everything we have here on this thread from parents or students who actually have experience with the program is positive. Maybe this Tim Brace changed???"
Most of the Carlbrook students who have commented in this thread have been out a few months to a year. Hardly any time to gain any real perspective. I was still towing the RMA line a year out of school, too. It took me a while to deprogram myself and get a real clue as to what really happened at that school and deal with all of the resentment and disturbing feelings I had.
Like I said, I could have been in worse places: The Seed. Straight. Elan. But there is no excuse for unqualified people to be counseling teens and taking parents' money.
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On 2005-09-14 13:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I posted the recent post, but did not post the older one referenced. Sorry- try again."
You're a liar. You won't even take accountability for writing trash like that. Not only are you a liar, you're a cowardly liar.
Chorus: NO WONDER YOUR KIDS ARE SO FUCKED UP!
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On 2005-09-14 15:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I would like to hear from former Carlbrook students who believe they were abused in any way or who feel that the staff was lacking in some way.
Please speak up if you are out there. Everything we have here on this thread from parents or students who actually have experience with the program is positive. Maybe this Tim Brace changed???"
Looks like you are searching for validation rather than information. Maybe Tim Brace is an angel. So what. Maybe no abuse ever happens at this facility. So what. This program and its clinicians have no licensure to practice in the realms of substance abuse or mental health treatment. And they charge $5700 per month for their lack of adequate credentials. If you send your kid here, consider him / her an experiment.
How about searching for ways the kid can be helped without sending him away? Unless he is court mandated, there are less restrictive alternatives (day treatment, for example). When a kid is sent away, he will likely feel abandoned and labeled as "the bad one". A kid wants his parents to parent him, not "staff." If the parents are frustrated, worried, confused, they need to get some therapy for themselves. Problems with kids always involve, at least in part, a family problem.
Does this kid have a history of trauma? Depression? Anxiety? Substance abuse?If the answer is yes to any of these, you will be throwing him to the wolves. An Emotional Growth program, that is unlicensed by the state office of mental health, treating kids with behavioral health and substance abuse issues. Great idea. Sounds like a recipe for behavioral health and substance abuse problems down the road.
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It seems like you're getting a good look at the normal procedure of the program apologists. They make unfounded, ridiculous statements about the worth of programs and when challenged with verifiable facts (as you presented) they proceed to bash the poster of said facts with outrageous ad hominem attacks.
When the "factual" poster does not acquiesce to the bashers and logically and thoroughly rebuts the apologists' assertions, the apologists impotently and vainly threaten legal action (usually they threaten to sue for slander) and subsequently withdraw.
I can assure you, however, the withdrawal is only temporary. They are lurking and watching and soon their compulsion will overwhelm them and they will bash the hell out of you again.
Anyway, thank you for your thoughtful and logical refutation of the dubious credentials of Carlbrook staff.
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Carlbrook does (or did when my kid went there) have a psychiatrist who handled evaluating depression, ADHD, anxiety, etc. and communicated with the parents regarding treatment and medication. I felt that there was proper medical attention to his needs. The whole atmosphere of the school is preppy boarding school, and the therapists are referred to as "advisors." I think they do try to mask the fact that they are an emotional growth school. This may be one reason why colleges seem to accept Carlbrook kids quite readily. My kid has been home for over a year, and tonight he's filling out his application for the ACT test. He liked Carlbrook and doesn't hate us for sending him there. Some of the posters on this board seem to have been sent to terrible places, and will never love or trust their parents again. That's a terrible loss for both parent and child.
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On 2005-09-15 18:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think they do try to mask the fact that they are an emotional growth school."
Sounds like a saavy marketing ploy.
There isn't a psychiatrist / prescriber listed on Carlbrook's website. They are not a licensed program for mental health services. And the majority of the listed providers have no license. It is pretty scary that that they are providing medication management and therapy. Licensed mental health programs can overmedicate / overdiagnose / provide inadequate mental health services. But at least fraud, unethical treatment, unsavory practices, etc. can be revealed during audits and state certification reviews. Imagine what a program with no state oversight can hide?
If your kid, and others, complete this program unscathed, I would count your lucky stars.
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The psychiatrist is a consulting doctor- not fulltime on staff. He comes to campus once a week or so.
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This is how this program is protecting itself legally. The MD is a consultant and takes the heat in a psychiatric crisis. Being an unlicensed mental health program, they cannot hire a prescriber as a staff member. It would raise too many red flags for the state. I wonder what percent of the student population is on psychotropic meds?
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On 2005-09-15 18:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think they do try to mask the fact that they are an emotional growth school. This may be one reason why colleges seem to accept Carlbrook kids quite readily. He liked Carlbrook and doesn't hate us for sending him there. Some of the posters on this board seem to have been sent to terrible places, and will never love or trust their parents again. That's a terrible loss for both parent and child. "
Thank fucking god for that. I remember when I left RMA, they had the same obscurity in terms of hiding themselves as an emotional growth school, fortunately, as did most of the CEDU system. I didn't have any problems getting into small liberal arts schools. There was one school I had to come in and talk to people to about my experience there before they decided to accept me into the college, but fortunately, I was still pretty brainwashed about the whole place, so I could paint a rosy picture about it and sell them.
And not all people who left programs are bitter, either. I don't hold my parents responsible. They simply didnt know. I could have been in worse places.
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This sounds like a great place to do some waterfowling. LOTS of quacks at the facility...
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I sent my teen son to this program, twice. I highly reccomend it, when he came home he was barely the same person. They killed his fighting spirit more than I expected. Parents who want their child rewired, don't look any further.. this place will suffice. If you really hate your kid though, check out WWASP or PROVO. ALl you Forniscators belong in programs!!!! :flame: :flame:
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Check your facts. Karen's son didn't even finish the Carlbrook program and he certainly didn't go there twice. He did go back to wilderness during Carlbrook (he wanted to). He was in the group with my kid, who also didn't finish the program. Karen probably challenged the methods more than any other parent. Her son is probably the most high-achieving kid to come out of the school.
Karen does not post on this forum, but I'm sure she would be willing to share her impressions of Carlbrook privately if anyone really cared for that level of dialogue.
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On 2005-09-16 08:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Check your facts. Karen's son didn't even finish the Carlbrook program and he certainly didn't go there twice. He did go back to wilderness during Carlbrook (he wanted to). He was in the group with my kid, who also didn't finish the program. Karen probably challenged the methods more than any other parent. Her son is probably the most high-achieving kid to come out of the school.
Karen does not post on this forum, but I'm sure she would be willing to share her impressions of Carlbrook privately if anyone really cared for that level of dialogue. "
Karen just posted. You must be mistaken. Check your facts.
If Carlbrook is so great, why would Karen's son WANT to go back to wildrness? If it's so great why are your son and her son both dropouts?
Maybe for your next kids you both will get court orders mandating them into the program so they have to finish or go to jail. That's more the type of rigid control you freaks are looking for.
You must have been outraged that your kids dropped out.
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If you think that KareninDallas login belongs to Karen, I have some land to sell you.
There are many good things about Carlbrook. It is not perfect and it is not right for every kid. It is an emotional growth school with a strong academic focus. Kids generally finish the program. Some don't and the reasons vary.
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On 2005-09-16 11:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you think that KareninDallas login belongs to Karen, I have some land to sell you.
There are many good things about Carlbrook. It is not perfect and it is not right for every kid. It is an emotional growth school with a strong academic focus. Kids generally finish the program. Some don't and the reasons vary. "
If it's a good program, why are the staff unlicensed/unqualified? Why is the program itself not registered as a "therapuetic" center? Why do they hire rejects from other BM programs that are confimedly abusive (staff have been convicted of crimes/lawsuits have been brought and won)? Why is that? Why do you reccommend Carlbrook knowing they are practicing therapy without licensure? Why would you support that?
Could you please answer these questions, specifically why you support "therapy" administered by people who have no license to practice?
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"If it's a good program, why are the staff unlicensed/unqualified? Why is the program itself not registered as a "therapuetic" center? Why do they hire rejects from other BM programs that are confimedly abusive (staff have been convicted of crimes/lawsuits have been brought and won)? Why is that? Why do you reccommend Carlbrook knowing they are practicing therapy without licensure? Why would you support that?
Could you please answer these questions, specifically why you support "therapy" administered by people who have no license to practice?"
I do not necessarily recommend this program across the board. As I said, my kid didn't complete it. I do believe most of the staff are very qualified. I don't really care if they have the exact certification previously mentioned in this thread. The head guy (Grant Price) makes sure any duds are axed pretty quickly. The advisors that are there are really good at working with the kids. It is an emotional growth program- I truly don't know about the licensing requirements. It didn't bother me. I trusted the staff. I don't believe anyone on the Carlbrook staff (most of whom have excellent academic credentials) has been convicted of anything. Much of the emotinal growth benefits came from interactions with peers. Carlbrook is quite selective in what students they accept. There is a waiting list (especially for boys). The kids admitted to Carlbrook are not extreme psychiatric cases. They do not have severe learning differences. They are bright kids who struggle with issues such as substance abuse, extreme family dysfunction, adoption issues, lack of boundaries with the opposite sex etc. Carlbrook allows the kids to work on some of these things without sacrificing their academics or jeopardizing their chances of going to a good college. For a few kids (such as Karen's kid), the academics are not good enough. Tim Brace seems to be loved by all the kids- I personally think he is a little over the top and weepy, but the kids respond well to him. At Carlbrook, he is certainly not the Bad Cop. That would be Grant Price, who holds all the cards at the place.
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"It is an emotional growth program- I truly don't know about the licensing requirements. It didn't bother me. I trusted the staff."
_________________________________________________
This is the problem with program parents. "Trust the process, trust the staff" is reinforced over and over again until the parental bots don't know or care if the law is being broken or if minimum standards are being met - which they CLEARLY ARE NOT at Carlbrook.
This is how confidence men, like Mr. Tim Brace, get your money. Enrolling your kid in a program like this is rolling the dice with their future, plain and simple.
Unlicensed, unaccredited, unregulated, unqualified facilities should NEVER BE CONSIDERED AN OPTION FOR PLACEMENT. You, parents, are asking for trouble and playing with fire.
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If I am not Karen, then why would I have this name?! It is you forniscators who keep pretending to be. Why, I will never know. I suppose you all think this is humurous in your own child-like delusional way. Carlbrook is a wonderful school, and will not be soft on your teen. Like I said, these programs are only if you really hate your teen, otherwise, you should keep them at home and love them and care for them. IF you hate them enough, send them away--- this is the best advice I can give. It worked for me! I never ever have to deal with my son now, it's a breeze. He will not even talk to me, I am not sure if it's because of sending him away--- I haven't given much thought to this at all. Instead I choose to spend my time on here, correcting all the disinformation. You forniscators are evil bastards, and will be sued one by one if necessary.
SO STOP LYING AND PRETENDING TO BE ME, Karen!
There is only ONE Karen from dallas, and thats me for gosh sakes!
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I understand what you are saying, but the fact is that most of the kids who attend Carlbrook are quite satisfied with the program and there have been no incidents of abuse. The parent body is not as robotic as you imply- on the whole it is a group of upper echelon, type-A people who check out the school quite thoroughly. The parents have the opportunity for regular on-campus visits and interaction with the staff and the students.
The worst that happens there is that it isn't effective as a therapeutic tool for a particular kid. The kid is still safe and getting an education- even if it is an expensive one. Almost every kid comes away with some good tools for expressing their feelings and understanding their anger and prior decisions.
At most, there are two advisors with degrees-in-process from internet universities. Most have degrees from reputable US universities, and, as I said, if an advisor isn't doing a good job, they don't last long at Carlbrook.
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How sad that all these type A Parents have kids growing up in a "therapeutic" community.
Look in the mirror, parents.
YOU, not your child, are a failure. You are hyper-over-controlling losers.
Can you imagine what it feels like to be YOUR kid? Stuck in a high-priced institutionalized boarding school so your parents don't have to see or hear you?
What a sick, twisted way to raise children.
How proud you all must be.
:smokin:
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On 2005-09-16 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How sad that all these type A Parents have kids growing up in a "therapeutic" community.
Look in the mirror, parents.
YOU, not your child, are a failure. You are hyper-over-controlling losers.
Can you imagine what it feels like to be YOUR kid? Stuck in a high-priced institutionalized boarding school so your parents don't have to see or hear you?
What a sick, twisted way to raise children.
How proud you all must be.
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
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That was a real courteous, productive response.
I tried to have a discussion and present my views without being insulting. I was telling you my experience and what I know about Carlbrook.
I'm gone.
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Ignore the vile response of the 'typical' forniscator!!! :flame: They are all little teenage devils, that need to be locked away in programs. The question is not how GOOD these programs are, but how much will they PUNISH my teen, that's what I want to know!! :flame: This forum is good for one reason--- it shows us the true nature of these cruel, twisted teenage monsters--- there is only one solution, programs. Anonymous, don't leave. Join me-- Karen -- in an attempt to uproot the deceit from this site! I am on a personal mission to SUE everyone who criticizes programs. Long live Carlbrook and all programs!
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On 2005-09-16 19:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That was a real courteous, productive response.
I tried to have a discussion and present my views without being insulting. I was telling you my experience and what I know about Carlbrook.
I'm gone."
Why thank you. The pleasure was all mine.
:grin:
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On 2005-09-16 15:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I understand what you are saying, but the fact is that most of the kids who attend Carlbrook are quite satisfied with the program and there have been no incidents of abuse. The parent body is not as robotic as you imply- on the whole it is a group of upper echelon, type-A people who check out the school quite thoroughly. The parents have the opportunity for regular on-campus visits and interaction with the staff and the students.
The worst that happens there is that it isn't effective as a therapeutic tool for a particular kid. The kid is still safe and getting an education- even if it is an expensive one. Almost every kid comes away with some good tools for expressing their feelings and understanding their anger and prior decisions.
At most, there are two advisors with degrees-in-process from internet universities. Most have degrees from reputable US universities, and, as I said, if an advisor isn't doing a good job, they don't last long at Carlbrook.
"
How many students have you spoken to, and how long had it been since they had graduated from the program? I would be very interested to see how "valuable" they find their experience 4 to 5 years from now once they get some perspective and get a little older. I'm not saying they will or will not find it traumatic, because I don't know, but I have a suspicion that they will most likely find the tools they learned there pretty useless. But I guess it's better than locking them up. Too bad it's not better on the pocketbook. Ow! You'd think for all that cash you parents are shelling out, you'd get at least a couple of people with a PhD in there, you know?
And yeah, Tim Brace. Over the top.. weepy. That's him in nutshell. Sure, I classify him as verbally abusive because of the screaming in raps, because of the style of therapy at RMA, but he is TOTALLY weepy. And TOTALLY unqualified. Like I said before though, he was one of the lesser of the brutal staff at RMA. If we got a Tim Brace rap, we knew that it was probably going to be a lot easier than some of the other staff, and if people were going to cry in the rap, it would probably be everyone, including him. He's still incompetent, though.
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Our child went to Carlbrook but was asked to leave primarily because of two reasons:
1) He did not get along with the owner and because 2) He wrote love letters to a girl.
He was also sent back to wilderness for rather insignifcant reasons. He was not violent, did not use drugs and was not a threat to himself or others. He was mildly oppositional and depressed, but that was why he was sent there in the first place.
At the time the school did not have a strong psychological component. It seemed student did not receive first rate counseling services by experienced professionals. Their diagnostic skills were questionable. When they were upset with a student, those in charge would assume your child had a significant disorder and wouldn't hesitate to imply that something was seriously wrong.
We ended up sending our child back to wilderness briefly, where he was re-tested. It turned out that he was not seriously disordered at all. Like I said, he was only "mildly oppositional," which was his official dx.
We then brought him home and he received one on one counseling by a wonderful therapist. He is doing very well today. He attends college and is on the Dean's list. He is ultra responsible and mature. Many of the students who did graduate from the program it seems ended up having many more problems. (Possible high rate of recidivism??)
Although it may have been limited, I must say that I think my child did receive some help from his experience at Carlbrook. Some of the people that worked with him invidually were very caring. I also felt that the facility is lovely. However, I think that some of the administration and staff could use additional training.
(I do have some concerns that my son might have some mild issues with PTSD after attending this school).
Hopefully, there have been some improvements since my child attended the program which has been a few years now.
I guess this goes without saying, but I would not send my child to any program without exhausting all other avenues first. Sometimes these programs are all we have left when our children are out of control.
I would not send my child to this particular program without a LONG visit and without asking MANY questions. I would check and re-check on my child OFTEN. I would not let anything go for even one second. You can never be too careful.
Please be CAREFUL. I can't stress that enough.[ This Message was edited by: Truth on 2005-09-17 11:17 ][ This Message was edited by: Truth on 2005-09-17 11:22 ]
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The staff needs some "additional training"? More like "training."
There is nobody on staff there that can legally provide therapy of any kind. The only person with the credentials to do so is a consultant, not a staff member.
It surprises me not at all that you were dissatisfied with an unlicensed/unaccredited/unqualified "program." Taking your kid to this place is like taking your broken car to the plumber. They simply don't have the knowledge or understanding to help children with psychological issues.
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On 2005-09-17 11:16:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"The staff needs some "additional training"? More like "training."
There is nobody on staff there that can legally provide therapy of any kind. The only person with the credentials to do so is a consultant, not a staff member.
It surprises me not at all that you were dissatisfied with an unlicensed/unaccredited/unqualified "program." Taking your kid to this place is like taking your broken car to the plumber. They simply don't have the knowledge or understanding to help children with psychological issues.
"
Definitly agree with you!
I guess some parents are just too embarassed to admit they invested in a junk program (kind of like buying a $50k lemon car.)
:smokin:
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That's one of the reasons that most fraud goes unreported: people are embarrassed to admit they've been snookered.
It seems to be the case in the "Troubled Parent" industry as well. These folks are so heavily invested financially and otherwise that they cannot admit to being hoodwinked because they'll look like monumental suckers, which is exactly what they are.
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It's interesting to me that both my child and Karen's child did not graduate from Carlbrook. I know my husband and I were told by Carlbrook officials that our child probably had a VERY serious disorder. The implication was that he would never get better. After therapy by a qualified therapist locally, he received Employee of the Month twice at his part time job. This year, he is on the Dean's list in college. Truthfully, I don't know anyone his age who is more responsible. Again, I think we got some benefit from Carlbrook. Hopefully, they will step up to the plate and make some improvements to their program. Sometimes parents need a place to take their children when the stiuation is critical. However, I credit my child's local therapist just as much, perhaps more than anyone at Carlbrook for his sound mental health. Cost: $25 per week (after insurance)
[ This Message was edited by: Truth on 2005-09-17 11:46 ]
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On 2005-09-17 11:43:00, Truth wrote:
"It's interesting to me that both my child and Karen's child did not graduate from Carlbrook. I know my husband and I were told by Carlbrook officials that our child probably had a VERY serious disorder. The implication was that he would never get better. After therapy by a qualified therapist locally, he received Employee of the Month twice at his part time job. This year, he is on the Dean's list in college. Truthfully, I don't know anyone his age who is more responsible. I credit his local therapist more than anyone at Carlbrook. Cost: $25 per week (after insurance)
[ This Message was edited by: Truth on 2005-09-17 11:43 ]"
Are you Ben's Mom, or just another parent who knows of Karen?
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir
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On 2005-09-17 16:15:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
" :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
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On 2005-08-22 18:43:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
Now, for those who read this all the way down, sorry Im so long winded, but I had a lot of points to make. I speak of facts, they speak of feelings and shun criticial thought and facts! I say theyre acting like a cult and they go and start ad-hominem attacks on me because I have a stressful personal life and do their damnest to act like one. Whoever kindles the flames of intolerance in America is lighting a fire underneath his own home.
--Harold E. Stassen, 1947
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You say you speak of facts. Exactly what facts are those? You have said you have not experienced these things first-hand - either as a parent or a child. So what "facts" do you refer to?
You seem very willing to accept anything bad that anyone has to say about these programs - and extremely quick to dismiss those that say these programs have helped them as being brainwashed.
You have refered to "false allegations" that have screwed up your family. But if someone talks about "false allegations" of abuse by these programs, you attack. (Perhaps I am wrong, but judging by some of the references you have made in the past, it sounds like abuse allegations you refer to. If so, how can you be so willing to accept the claims of abuse from strangers on the internet, but dismiss them in real life?) There is the conflict - you seem to blame "false allegations" for a lot of your misery, yet you refuse to consider the fact that someone would make "false allegations" against these programs.
[Further note - I am NOT saying that claims of abuse in these programs are false. I am simply pointing out what appears to be a contradiction that would degrade one's credibility]
Maybe that is why people may question you, in what you perceive as an attack. Maybe it is really more an attempt to clarify the validity and credibility of your statements in light of what appears to be a contradiction, not to mention major tunnel-vision.
Just some thoughts and observations, hopefully that you will consider and not just dismiss in a rage.
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Wow way to reply from August 22nd! YOU WIN!
Ok, a few things here...
My family was accused, and they ASSUMED it was true, instead of investigate, and it fucked us over.
Its about INVESTIGATING AND FINDING OUT, RETARD! :flame:
People ASSUME the assumptions against the programs are false, and dont investigate. BS. Thats another case of INVESTIGATE AND FIND OUT INSTEAD OF ASSUME! Its not about 'accusations are bad'. Criticism and critical thought is a good thing, bucko.
Also, my willingness to accept something is inversely proprotional to how much it has to do with feelings instead of FACTS and INFO. Im also going to categorically dismiss anything to do with the synannite/lifespring style seminars/workshops or their clones, period, because its just that, a damned LGA. LGAs are LGAs, not therapy or growing.
BTW professionals - not emotionally weak and manipulated terrified parents and dominated children - have investigated how LGAs work. Its a pathological effect from the mind games, stress, humiliation, and the 'breakdown' from hours and hours of that bullshit that you feel. Its not some spiritual thing or an epiphany, its eurphoria from a release of brain chemicals from sustained stress.
This... contradiction is not. You dont seem to grasp my point: I WANT IT INVESTIGATED INSTEAD OF ASSUMED IN BOTH CASES. K?
Oh and uh finally... as this thread went on, the carlbrookies did exactly what I said the program does - 'emotional growth' bullshit! They LOOKED FOR MY PERSONAL LIVE JOURNAL to CONFRONT ME about the past bullshit and saying that because I have had hard times in my life and havent been to a workshop you can't trust anything I say.
WTF?
Oh and uh.... FACTS like what a LGA is or FACTS that all they do is confront and bring up personal bullshit in the LGAs instead of actual therapy are the facts I speak of. The FACTS of how they acted in the thread. Oh and uh P.S. I didnt personally figure out all of math and science, but hey, I can know math without experiencing it!
Science can be demonstrated... and well lookie here, they acted just like I accused them of. Empirical evidence?Fresh beauty opens one's eyes wherever it is really seen, but the very abundance and completeness of the common beauty that besets our steps prevents its being absorbed and appreciated. It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountain-tops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to common everyday beauty.
-- John Muir
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On 2005-09-17 19:08:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Wow way to reply from August 22nd! YOU WIN!
Ok, a few things here...
My family was accused, and they ASSUMED it was true, instead of investigate, and it fucked us over.
Its about INVESTIGATING AND FINDING OUT, RETARD! :flame:
People ASSUME the assumptions against the programs are false, and dont investigate. BS. Thats another case of INVESTIGATE AND FIND OUT INSTEAD OF ASSUME! Its not about 'accusations are bad'. Criticism and critical thought is a good thing, bucko.
Also, my willingness to accept something is inversely proprotional to how much it has to do with feelings instead of FACTS and INFO. Im also going to categorically dismiss anything to do with the synannite/lifespring style seminars/workshops or their clones, period, because its just that, a damned LGA. LGAs are LGAs, not therapy or growing.
BTW professionals - not emotionally weak and manipulated terrified parents and dominated children - have investigated how LGAs work. Its a pathological effect from the mind games, stress, humiliation, and the 'breakdown' from hours and hours of that bullshit that you feel. Its not some spiritual thing or an epiphany, its eurphoria from a release of brain chemicals from sustained stress.
This... contradiction is not. You dont seem to grasp my point: I WANT IT INVESTIGATED INSTEAD OF ASSUMED IN BOTH CASES. K?
Oh and uh finally... as this thread went on, the carlbrookies did exactly what I said the program does - 'emotional growth' bullshit! They LOOKED FOR MY PERSONAL LIVE JOURNAL to CONFRONT ME about the past bullshit and saying that because I have had hard times in my life and havent been to a workshop you can't trust anything I say.
WTF?
Oh and uh.... FACTS like what a LGA is or FACTS that all they do is confront and bring up personal bullshit in the LGAs instead of actual therapy are the facts I speak of. The FACTS of how they acted in the thread. Oh and uh P.S. I didnt personally figure out all of math and science, but hey, I can know math without experiencing it!
Science can be demonstrated... and well lookie here, they acted just like I accused them of. Empirical evidence?Fresh beauty opens one's eyes wherever it is really seen, but the very abundance and completeness of the common beauty that besets our steps prevents its being absorbed and appreciated. It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountain-tops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to common everyday beauty.
-- John Muir
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Actually, I'd say Niles knows what he speaks of, when talking about LGAT (large group awareness training) seminars.
Check out this study ...
"This paper presents an overview of a Lifespring Basic Training workshop from a psychoanalytic perspective. Basing our conclusions on a participant-observation study, we argue that the impact of the training was essentially pathological. First, in the early period of the training, ego functions were systematically undermined and regression was promoted. Second, the ideational or interpretive framework of the training was based upon regressive modes of reasoning Third, the structure and content of the training tended to stimulate early narcissistic conflicts, and defenses, which accounted for the elation and sense of heightened well-being achieved by many participants."
Read more here:
PATHOLOGY AS PERSONAL GROWTH
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/pathology.htm)
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He may or he may not - but he doesn't help to further his cause by name calling. I can assure you I am not a "RETARD" and I fail to see anything in my post that would have prompted such an accusation.
It is sad because he may know what he is talking about, but he certainly loses credibility by such childish, uncalled for attacks.
And Nihilanthic - again, I was offering a perspective for you to consider, maybe an insight into why people may question you. It would certainly appear that you don't care to consider how you may be perceived. It is a shame, because if you truly want to be effective, it IS necessary to understand how your words, attitude and accusations affect how other perceive the message you are giving.
Oh - and so far as investigating - - without further facts, I would find it hard to believe that abuse accusations weren't investigated. If they weren't investigated, how was your family even affected? Or maybe you just didn't like the conclusion of the investigation........Again, seems to be a contradiction.
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Nihil- your post isn't written clearly enough to be comprehensible. Maybe Overlordd should help you clean it up a little.
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Oy, guess M.C. NILES GOTTA BREAK IT DOWWNNNNN for ya for you to make sense of what I say, huh. Well, here we go.
On 2005-09-17 19:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"He may or he may not - but he doesn't help to further his cause by name calling. I can assure you I am not a "RETARD" and I fail to see anything in my post that would have prompted such an accusation.
The RETAAAARD wasnt really meant at you, just that a lot of heartache and bullshit could be avoided and prevented (and cleaned up) if people would thuroughly investigate things and not assume one way or the other.
It is sad because he may know what he is talking about, but he certainly loses credibility by such childish, uncalled for attacks.
Im sorry ::boohoo::
And Nihilanthic - again, I was offering a perspective for you to consider, maybe an insight into why people may question you. It would certainly appear that you don't care to consider how you may be perceived. It is a shame, because if you truly want to be effective, it IS necessary to understand how your words, attitude and accusations affect how other perceive the message you are giving.
Thanks for the public speaking 101 :silly: But in all honesty in this thread I really dont care. I deal with stubborn fucks all the time who would rather be right than correct (which would mean admitting they were wrong) and will let nothing more than stubbornness keep a child in a program, or make them stand by whatever decision they've made.
Dealing with that shit makes me a little fed up and pissy, but my mood when I was typing my previous post was actaully very non serious if you could believe that. But see, my 'message' is the truth.
I suppose I should soften my tones and pretend the people who are here, instead of locked in a program are the fuckin' victims and let them play the victim card (AGAIN! :roll: ) and be CONCILATORY and be soo fucking sorry that they were tricked into sending their kids away, and they might listen more... if I can not bang my head against my keyboard in the process.
Actually, yeah, I do have to pander to those poor poor sensitive parents who might be too angry or shameful to admit theyre wrong and save their kid. I'll keep that in mind!
Oh - and so far as investigating - - without further facts, I would find it hard to believe that abuse accusations weren't investigated. If they weren't investigated, how was your family even affected? Or maybe you just didn't like the conclusion of the investigation........Again, seems to be a contradiction.
Well, arent you fucking brilliant. Let me remind you that everything you know about that is what I told you - whereas the programs have countless witnesses or personally abused victims, theres been ton of publicity and investigation already.
Im sure you already know that many times the police will just offhand reject accusations against the programs and the responsible orginizations/authorities will simply disregard or drop it, right? That doesnt happen EVERY time, but it does.
Now, back to MY personal shit... the cops simply believed it was true, and didnt investigate. The DA took it to court with the accusation itself as the only evidence. The judge saw how the DA had... my dad, stepmom, and my two sisters, and the defence had a pile of psychologists, the WHOLE FAIMLY except those on the prosecution's side, including myself, who was offhandedly accused of having been molested... by my stepmom. (But obviously nobody molested me... and I love how the cops ignored that part!)
The Judge said "Their MOM is on the defence? How did you let it get this far??" to the DA who basically... didnt give a shit! The Judge cant MAKE him drop it, but the Judge seemed to think if my sisters were put on the stand it would hurt them - and clearly did not seem to think my stepdad did jack shit because he would have let the trial continue if he did. So, he yells at the DA to drop it. DA goes (what amounts to) "Nuh-uh". So then he yells at the accused, and the defence lawyer goes "he didnt DO anything!".
So, the Judge drags the defence and DA off, and they come back and to make 'everyone happy' (instead of drop it like it should have been) the plea bargain was.... two counts of assault on a female. Two misdemeanors, and an alford plea at that. Not BATTERY, just assault.
No Judge thinking that he was a child molestor would have let that go through, buddy. The Prosecutor fucked up royally and the Judge apparently doesnt have the power to just throw shit out in NC. But whatever. BTW when a probation officer tried to make him admit built and go through 'sex offender treatment' (which is stepcraft... oy) the Judge told her "NO, I said NO, I said he didnt have to do it!". So yeah draw your own conclusions - he could have easily made him!
In BOTH cases, if things were investigated and followed through accordingly, there'd be justice in both cases, less bullshit, and less heartache... and I wouldnt be here talking to you now! It really puzzles me to see Marijuana connected with Narcotics - Dope and all that crap?it's a thousand times better than whiskey - it's an Assistant - a friend.
Louis Armstrong
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-09-18 18:54 ]
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Are you Ben's Mom, or just another parent who knows of Karen?
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Who is Ben?
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On 2005-09-18 18:47:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
Well, arent you fucking brilliant. Let me remind you that everything you know about that is what I told you - whereas the programs have countless witnesses or personally abused victims, theres been ton of publicity and investigation already.
Louis Armstrong
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-09-18 18:54 ]"
Why yes, some people do think I'm rather brilliant! :smile:
I stumbled upon this topic and was looking into it more. It is obvious that you feel passionately about this subject and would like to effect real change. As such, I would hope you would be open and interested in learning how you are perceived in order to become more effective.
If you cannot express yourself without the attacks, name-calling, and sarcastic denigration, you will be far less effective. People will dismiss you and what you say.
If you want to expound on the virtues of pork, it is easy to do so at a Pork Lover's convention. They are all on your side. But say someone wonders in that isn't quite sure - they have heard some things about pork, but don't know what to believe.
They come in and ask questions and request information about the your qualifications to make such remarks about pork - instead of just blindly accepting what they hear. You respond by slamming them, calling them contemptable names and lashing out. They leave thinking that those Pork Lovers are a bunch on fanatical, irrational zealots.
Meanwhile, all your buddies in the Pork Lovers convention are slapping you on the back, giving you high fives. You feel quite self-righteous.
But you have hurt your cause. Sure, the Pork Lovers think you are great; they are on your side. They were ALREADY on your side, so you have gain nothing. But you have lost what may have been a valuable ally.
Simplistic and obvious I'm sure - but you seem to have missed that. Perhaps you are just too blinded with self-righteous indignation at this point. Perhaps you lack the maturity at this point in your life. (and that is not meant as an insult or a slam)
Now - so far as your personal situation.
You say to draw my own conclusions. Ok, based on what you have said, I would conclude that you either have not been given all the information, that you have been given misinformation, or you are only providing bits of information to support your stand. And that is my point - if you don't give clear, accurate and complete information in a rational, mature manner, people will draw their own conclusions. And it probably won't be the ones you want.
Judges may not have the power to throw cases out, but a defense attorney can certainly file a motion to dismiss. If the charges were so bogus and the case was so heavily slanted in favor of the defense, if the judge would have thrown out the charges, etc etc etc - - -why didn't the defense file a motion to dismiss?
Even so, judges impose the sentence. If the judge was so enraged and the allegations so egregious, why would the judge have imposed a sentence that obviously created such a hardship for your family?
Again, if things were as you paint them - why wouldn't the accuse INSIST on a jury trial? Surely he would have been vindicated and his name cleared. Why would he allow his family to suffer as a result of these charges?
It just doesn't add up - and that is just a cursory analysis. I'm sure more inconsistencies and flaws would surface upon further analysis and/or information.
The response to this post, if there is one, will probably be predictable. I am probably wasting my time here. But maybe it will at least prompt you to examine things a little more analytically and less emotionally. Maybe at some point, you will look back and find at least some truth in what I have said.
I wish you peace in the future, and success in your journey.
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The judge basically said if we insisted on a trial hed do everything he could to keep my sisters off the stand.
So, youre in a situation where... theres only the accusation itself, and you cant even question the accusers. Our lawyer told us that in that case the trial would be a crapshoot - some juries might just believe becuase its a kid saying it happened, AND becuase you cant question you cant show how their stories changed every time, etc, even though it was on the police documents.
And, the accused was duped into thinking this would help my sisters and my mom get back together. HAH.
But yeah, when a judge is saying you cant face the accusers and that he yelled at everyone to "WORK SOMETHING OUT!!!", its called coersion...
P.S. What does this have to do with me? And all this other shit? Investigation would have fixed my problem AND the problems with the programs abuse.The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.
-- E. Grebenik
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On 2005-09-19 16:01:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
P.S. What does this have to do with me? And all this other shit? Investigation would have fixed my problem AND the problems with the programs abuse.The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.
-- E. Grebenik
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It probably has a lot to do with you, who you are, etc. However, that was just being used as an example.
When I read this response, I saw information, it didn't attack, name call, etc. It was a reasonable, calm explanation.
I can tell you - my response to that post was MUCH different than the response before. This one gives me the impression of someone who is providing more rational, meaningful information - much more powerful and persuasive. The prior one would be dismissed as being a diatribe by a hothead with an ax to grind.
I hope you find peace in your life. Good luck in your efforts.
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Even though I'm a parent that thinks Carlbrook helped her son to a certain extent, I have mixed feelings about the program and to this day wonder about efficacy of the therapy sessions. Did someone here call it Large Group Awareness? I'll have to check into that. I did not hear this mentioned by anyone at Carlbrook nor by our Educational Consultant. I told our son later, that one of the reasons it is so important to maintain self control is that when you lose control and things become somewhat of an emergency situation and you give part of your control to other people. This is a very uncomfortable thing to do. A parent can do their very best in terms of research and still fall
short in trying to find a good match for their child. I have posted on your website to try to help parents when they do their own research and are trying to make the difficult decision with reference to placing a child. In my opinion, these programs do provide a service. There are some good points to Carlbrook, but like I have mentioned before, there were things about the program that were of concern. Of note was that they did not seem to have a strong therapeutic component. Hopefully, they have made some improvements in this realm. If I were a parent looking at this school for my child, this is the area that I would check into very carefully. I would also double check on my child as often as possible. For us, the entire Carlbrook experience ended up a difficult one.
p.s. Our son never graduated from Carlbrook, but just a few months later was doing beautifully with the help of a local therapist. I believe there are certain people in the program that concern him. [ This Message was edited by: Truth on 2005-09-19 17:52 ]
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Id definitely call it a BIG red flag that they didnt tell you the real core component of the 'therapy' at carlbrook! What else did they say it was?
Another thing I would call into question about how they say "youre scared and helpless, and its uncomfortable to give up control to someone else, but you should anyway" which is a roundabout way of saying "you should give up control to us". Why is culturing and nurturing vulnerability part of THERAPY, exactly?
Not only that but a lot of parents seem to really have no clue what goes on in programs or even how they're supposed to work! I created a thread a while ago centered about WWASPS programs but I later expanded to all programs, titled "How about some damn ANSWERS."
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7573&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7573&forum=9)
Its 40 pages long, and basically after trying for hundreds of posts to get out how they work and what they do, they said... "its the seminars". Thats it. It actually caused one woman, Chi3, to remove her child from the WWASPS program Carolina Springs Academy! :grin:
When they spoke of the 'workshops' in Carlbrook as being the source of the growth/therapy/whatever it struck me as a point of contention. Seminars/workshops/propheets, etc, are all just adaptations of the Synannon/Lifespring model of confrontational, "dig up your issues" (and your emotions!) type of 'experiential' seminar/workshop/whatever.
In a nutshell its about turning off thought and turning on emotions/feelings (and ONLY them) until youre so absorbed in them you lose the ability to think critically and just accept what is told. When the emotional rollercoaster is done, youre left in a euphoric and weak state... so then they dole out affection and have everyone give everyone else affection. Ive heard this described as a "love bomb". Being in a weak state youre 'receptive to suggestion'. Thats a very polite and non-tinfoilhat-ish way to say theyre brainwashing them.
The way they do it besides just directly screwing with emotions (like confronting every child there about why theyre in the program and all the bad things they ever did, playying off of primal fears, and controlling the music/temperature/light levels of the room and not letting them use the bathroom or heat much [the seminars take like 18 hours]) is with processes. These are basically mind-games designed to open you up or... well, freak you out. Like say everyone has to form circles and pick 5 people to say, and yell "I SAVE YOU" to them, and to everyone else yell "DIE!". Or they do trust games, or like "close your eyes and lie on the floor and pretend youre dead in a coffin" or beat on chairs or beat on the floor with towels, etc. And at the end the doling out affection is mostly just hugging everyone.
So yeah. Your issues are dug up and 'addressed' but its basically a vehicle to play with emotions and turn off your mental/intellectual ability and discourage and punish criticism and critial thought. You HAVE to accept what they say and they make it damn hard to not accept it. Thats the only way out of the program... "working the program!".
If you want to read up about how all of this works, Id say go to http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org) and look up about the "Discovery seminars" or search Fornits for "raps", "seminars", and "propheets".
Some direct links are here:
http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/krbean.pdf (http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/krbean.pdf)
http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/resource ... 10.02.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/resource-realizations.04.10.02.html)
This isnt direct to carlbrook. But LGAs (large group awareness training) may be called various things but theyre all basically the same sort. Oh and uh.. them saying "I had to experience it" and digging up my PERSONAL LIVE JOURNAL and all the bullcrap I went through thats on it and confronting me about it here publically. HELLO? The more I say its all about seminars in the thread the more they reflected it... and they all talk in the same sort of way when they defend the program here.
Dont you find it odd that what is said all sounds like the same person? Either one person cares WAY too much or they all sound the same, which is even MORE freaky.
Its good that your mind is open and that you'd rather be critical and find the truth than cling to what might be a lie to feel better about the decision you made with your son, but its the right thing to do. Just keep looking and keep searching, and you'll see whats going on. It ain't all pretty but... well, its the mess we're all involved in when people are led to believe they need programs to help raise their children.When we talk to god, it's prayer. When god talks to us, it's schizophrenia.
--Lily Tomlin, American actress
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I say if the adults want to pay someone to brainwash them, fine. Just leave the kids out of it. Their brains are NOT even fully developed. These LGAT seminars strip participants of their critical thinking skills. Is that really what parents want for their kids ... to take away their ability to think logically and rationally? Instill them with the values and beliefs of a bunch of under-educated, materialistic teen helpers? People who are in the business of "engineering" the minds of young children?
God save us all.
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I think it's fair to say that parents should inquire as to the type of therapy that Carlbrook is using. There does seem to be some brain-wash aspects to the therapy methods they used with our child. There certainly is an abundance of secretism. However, it also seemed like the major themes they were focusing on were good ones. Integrity, honesty and other ones of good value. These programs do seem to help many children. Many of these children are so destructive that they do need a controlled environment to live in. It really takes experienced, well educated leaders to pull off a well balanced program. I got the impression that Carlbrook has potential but has some work to do.
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p.s. Those in charge at Carlbrook do not seem to be capable people. We went through heartaches and I know of others who also experienced problems. There is no ongoing medical presence at all. However, most of the Advisors seem to be very professional and really compassionate about their work and the kids.
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I detected five violations on your list of 40 w/ reference to a possible abusive indicators during the time my child attended Carlbrook.
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Our child went to Carlbrook. Some of the kids in his class are doing fine, but many are having problems. While we were in the program, there were indeed problems. The leadership is weak, but some of the individual therapy provided seems pretty good. (Some of it was a little harsh though....concerned about this). The acadmics seem pretty good. The school could stand some improvements though. I agree, a good place for more information might be http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com). HOWEVER, my guess is that you could get fake replies from Carlbrook staff at that location. (Sad, but true) I'm a real parent who has BTDT. If you are interested in Carlbrook, just be sure to research the school well and ask many, many questions. Check up on your child often. Leave no stone unturned. Do your homework, etc. Be professional and expect the same of Carlbrook, especially those in charge.
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Anyone whose even read over this thread in a cursory manner can see this place has tons of issues itself, and clearly isnt in any position to provide therapy for others.
AND, its been demonstrated that it relies on LGAT's, as in large group awarness trainings, as in sensitivity training, otherwise known as a "workshop", "seminar", "propheet", or a "rap".
Information about them is not hard to find, but in brief its nothing more than pushing emotional buttons until they're broken down and easy to manipulate and control.
Part of the hippocratic oath is 'first, do no harm' - I think that applies to children as much as adults.
I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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My daughter went to Carlbrook and it's an awesome school. The school has an excellent academic program with an outstanding record of getting students into preferred colleges. The therapeutic component works well and my daughter is a changed individual. I highly recommend it.
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Phoenix Outdoor is starting to be the new wilderness program of preference. It has a positive peer culture, a base camp the students visit weekly, and is all about helping the family along with the student.
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On 2005-11-11 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My daughter went to Carlbrook and it's an awesome school. The school has an excellent academic program with an outstanding record of getting students into preferred colleges. The therapeutic component works well and my daughter is a changed individual. I highly recommend it."
Will someone please describe "Positive Peer Culture" and "Therapeutic Component"?
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The crickets are sleeping for the winter, so Ill just play the worlds smallest violin to break up the silence. ::boohoo::
Talk about it and let the truth find its own way.
Some Joker
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I knew Tim Brace from Rock Mountain Academy...he is a smooooooth talker...people will recommend that you ask questions...keep in contact etc. but I'll challenge any parent to try to get the WHOLE story about what goes on in whatever they are calling raps, propheets and workshops.
also research SYNANON and HERBALIFE for more interesting info...google Mel Wasserman...or just search his name on this site.
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I'm the poster above...Strugglingteens.com is run by Lon Woodbury who worked in the Business office at RMA when Tim Brace was headmaster...boy...talk about tangled tangled webs...you really think they are gonna give you a non biased opinion...HAHAHAHA.
For the money you spend on one of these programs you can buy your kids way into a REAL school such as Andover or Exeter...a better chance for your child's future success in my opinion.
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A lot of the kids at Carlbrook, Oakley etc. have already been kicked out of schools like Andover. Good luck staying in those schools while you disregard authority, drink and use drugs.
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On 2006-01-12 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
Good luck staying in those schools while you disregard authority, drink and use drugs."
::bwahaha2::
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Damn kids! Get off my lawn!!!
Yeah! And leave that garden gnome alone!
Rotten whippersnappers with their rock and roll music and rowdy shenanigans. Back in my day, we had good clean fun, like hanging out at the pharmacy and drinking our phosphates.
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Carlbrook actually has representatives go out to the wilderness site and pick the student up and brings them to the boardingschool/whatever. They never leave the kid alone. This is considered safe. The parents agree to this too. Sounds kinda prisonesque if you ask me.
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Carlbrook is a lame program and a scam. I saw that guy Tim B. grab a kid by the neck and slam him on the ground. Parents don't realize the abuse that goes on there behind closed doors. The classes are a joke and the kids get punished relentlessly including restraints.
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"Carlbrook actually has representatives go out to the wilderness site and pick the student up and brings them to the boardingschool/whatever. They never leave the kid alone. This is considered safe. The parents agree to this too. Sounds kinda prisonesque if you ask me."
That is incorrect. The parents either can bring the kid to Carlbrook themselves or use escorts. Carlbrook has no transport personnel.
No restraints are used at the school. The academics are pretty good. The kids tend to do well academically post-Carlbrook.
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On 2006-01-15 18:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Carlbrook actually has representatives go out to the wilderness site and pick the student up and brings them to the boardingschool/whatever. They never leave the kid alone. This is considered safe. The parents agree to this too. Sounds kinda prisonesque if you ask me."
That is incorrect. The parents either can bring the kid to Carlbrook themselves or use escorts. Carlbrook has no transport personnel.
No restraints are used at the school. The academics are pretty good. The kids tend to do well academically post-Carlbrook."
Jesus, you know, I am so sick of this same person pimping Carlbrook. Did the staff send you here for damage control or what?
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On 2006-01-15 18:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Carlbrook actually has representatives go out to the wilderness site and pick the student up and brings them to the boardingschool/whatever. They never leave the kid alone. This is considered safe. The parents agree to this too. Sounds kinda prisonesque if you ask me."
That is incorrect. The parents either can bring the kid to Carlbrook themselves or use escorts. Carlbrook has no transport personnel.
No restraints are used at the school. The academics are pretty good. The kids tend to do well academically post-Carlbrook."
This is totally untrue. They definitely, absolutely use restraints. This person must not have ever spent a day on campus because the slammings are everyday there. Just ask any kid who went there.
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I went there- they do not use restraints. An out of control kid might be bear-hugged, but if a kid is too physical, they can't stay at the school.
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On 2006-01-16 09:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I went there- they do not use restraints. An out of control kid might be bear-hugged, but if a kid is too physical, they can't stay at the school."
Thank you for validating the point, Carlbrook student.
What you call a "bear hug" is what the state calls "physical restraint."
So, there you have it, straight from yet another kid's mouth. Carlbrook uses physical restraint.
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On 2006-01-16 09:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I went there- they do not use restraints. An out of control kid might be bear-hugged, but if a kid is too physical, they can't stay at the school."
Dude, just give it up. We know you're a rep of the school who has been littering our boards with the same old bullshit, trying to pretend you are satisfied parents, happy alumni, etc. It's so obvious it's not even funny.
Tell Tim I said hi, and that I think he's an unqualified fucked-up tweaker freak who should never be around children or teens.
Seriously, that guy acted like he was on Tina all the time.
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I agree. This is the same troll. As soon as it was said "ask any student..." within an hour this lame-ass was back posing as a student.
It is really pathetic the level that these folks will stoop to.
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http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/let ... 051018.htm (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/moreno_rico051018.htm)
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On 2006-01-16 09:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I went there- they do not use restraints. An out of control kid might be bear-hugged, but if a kid is too physical, they can't stay at the school."
Bear-hugs my ass. I'll laugh as I watched the kid break the jerk's nose with his head and if the jerk still didn't let go, he would be kneecapped. Of course, then the kid is too violent and cannot stay. Yeah right. If it were that easy to get expelled, these places would be empty.
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On 2006-01-16 14:31:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
On 2006-01-16 09:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I went there- they do not use restraints. An out of control kid might be bear-hugged, but if a kid is too physical, they can't stay at the school."
Bear-hugs my ass. I'll laugh as I watched the kid break the jerk's nose with his head and if the jerk still didn't let go, he would be kneecapped. Of course, then the kid is too violent and cannot stay. Yeah right. If it were that easy to get expelled, these places would be empty."
http://www.gracie.com/ (http://www.gracie.com/) :grin:
It sucks when decent, hardworking people get screwed over like that. Because that means pricks like us don?t stand a chance.
Jim S. watching the devastation of the recent tsunami on the television at JR?s
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Um, unfortunately it is quite easy for a kid to get expelled from Carlbrook. My kid was not quite "with the program." They were good about trying to explain expectations to him, but he was stubborn. They never used any force or restraint. We got a phone call and were asked to pick him up within a very few days. He still credits his progress to Carlbrook, and getting kicked out was a nasty wake-up call. He was devastated, and still keeps in touch with friends he made there. He's out of high school now, working full-time and is doing well. I think we have a troll stirring things up here.
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In just a 'few days'... Carlbrook made a life-changing impact and your 'son' still keeps in touch with people he made deep connections with in a few days.
And a parent who had involvement for a 'few days' is posting on fornits?
Amazingly unbelievable.
Your ficticious stories are boring and unrealistic.
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"In just a 'few days'."- The kid was at Carlbrook more than a few days. He needed to be PICKED UP within a few days of the parent getting the call.
Another example of brilliant interpretation on this board.
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Thanks for the correct interpretation. Kid was at Carlbrook for a while. And according to the poster above, Second Nature wilderness and Carlbrook were just figments of my imagination??? Damn, then where did all the money go? Sorry I tell such boring stories. The rest of the world knows for sure that I'm NOT a fiction writer.
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On 2006-01-17 18:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thanks for the correct interpretation. Kid was at Carlbrook for a while. And according to the poster above, Second Nature wilderness and Carlbrook were just figments of my imagination??? Damn, then where did all the money go? Sorry I tell such boring stories. The rest of the world knows for sure that I'm NOT a fiction writer. "
Really? Got some proof to back up your story there mr Carlbrookie?After all, who wouldn't prefer Middle Earth, unless they've been corrupted by a Ring of Power?
Jeff Elkins; Tolkien's Libertarian Vision
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On 2006-01-17 08:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
""In just a 'few days'."- The kid was at Carlbrook more than a few days. He needed to be PICKED UP within a few days of the parent getting the call.
Another example of brilliant interpretation on this board."
Now here is an excellent example of a Carlbrook staffmember trying to do damage control.
Lets look at the facts as we can see them on the board.
Do you notice the original story was "My kid" and "We got a call" posted 01/17/2006 at 05:29:00
then...same day at 08:34:00 the story now reads "The kid" and "The Parents"
now...we can assume that this is just mere coincidence...but if you look not only at the proximity of the postings, but also at the time...(don't forget...Carlbrook is on East Coast Time) the posts were made at 8:29 am and 11:34 am...sounds like business hours to me.
things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Sorry, I'm not a CB staffer. I wish this board were moderated because while free speech is a great thing, lots of lies and assumptions get into the mix. I found this board back in 2003 before my kid even did wilderness. I used it extensively to check out programs, and found it very useful. At that time (2003) this board had no negative comments on Carlbrook. The school was fairly new, and there was no internet dirt to be found on it back then. Carlbrook does ask kids to leave, and it's entirely possible that someone else on this board has been in the same situation. You get the unhappy news in a phone call, and then you have to scramble to make last minute plane reservations, which are not cheap, fly into Raleigh/Durham, rent a car, drive through Greensboro, up through Danville, Virginia and then through Middle of Nowhere, Virginia to get to Carlbrook. It's all sudden, and you have to unexpectedly schedule time off work. On top of that, your kid is upset, and you and your spouse are upset, and you don't have a lot of time to figure out what the hell to do. But, hey, if you think I'm a Carlbrook staff member, you are entitled to your opinion. It's entirely wrong, but it seems like you're used to being an asshole.
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I find it hard to believe that you had been reading the boards prior to sending your kid to carlbrook. If you had, you would have already been familiar with the CEDU schools, as well as Cascade, and your alarm bells would have gone off when you discovered that two of the deans at carlbrook were from those orginizations. You might have also been alerted when they billed themselves as an "emotional growth" school, after how many mentionings on this board of how that is a behavior mod euphamism. I would have also thought that the board would have taught you to do some investigating into what kind of school you were sending your child to. Just because a school is not mentioned on fornits doesn't mean it shouldn't be held up to scrutiny.
Exactly what part of the fornits board were you reading in 2003 that you would have missed all of this? The web development forum?
It also seems that the only reason you have posted on this board is to talk about how great Carlbrook is. Your kid is out of that school, so what is your motivation for continuing to sing its praises on an online forum? You sure seem vehement to do damage control for it. It doesn't really add up.
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On 2006-01-18 19:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
" At that time (2003) this board had no negative comments on Carlbrook. The school was fairly new, and there was no internet dirt to be found on it back then. "
well there is your answer...it takes time for the people that knew the heads of the school to track them down to see where they are now cultivating even more of these schools. You aren't conversing with idiots on this board we have known these people for decades. You have been researching these schools for 2-3 years...or so you say. Give it time...Tim Brace will be running another school somewhere else...the subordinates will move up a notch and one will assume headmaster duties at Carlbrook...Tim will take a few people with him to start the new school (just like the move from CEDU to RMA)and maybe even recruit a few of the students that he has deemed "not worthy of a college education" to come with him and start up a new school.
and...speaking of Carlbrook...or any of these schools. Just ask how the day is spent...ask them to show you a weekly hour by hour of what is going on. After that...tell me where they find time to fit in an education? Those teachers must have the cuuuuushiest teaching job in the world...hell...I TAUGHT THE MATH CLASS AT RMA...sure there was another teacher that was supposed to do it...but he wasn't nearly as adept at math as me. I got bored with teaching so I finally gave up and we just spent the time sitting around listening to "war stories" as we called them from the teacher.
I still got my high school diploma though...go figure.
Care to hear what I did for English, History and some of the other classes that I received credit for?
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You didn't have Will Vernard teach you, by any chance, did you? Cause he totally knew his shit.
I remember when they built the emerson academic building, Will started teaching math, and that's when I actually started learning something again. I took trig from him. He was one of the few people who actually knew what he was talking about. Most of the classes, however, were still bullshit.
Before that, we had to learn crap like "mortenson math" which was the biggest crock of shit ever. It was like math with lego blocks. And I remember our equivalent of physics was getting in a van with Ed and having a balloon tied inside the car and seeing which way it would go when he drove forward. I remember him saying "Ok now, hold on. I'm gonna peel out."
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On 2006-01-18 19:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
I wish this board were moderated because while free speech is a great thing, lots of lies and assumptions get into the mix.
That's true of the moderated boards as well. Those ones reflect the bias of the moderators while this one reflects the many biases of all who care to post.Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
--Ambrose Bierce
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On 2006-01-18 19:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
" You get the unhappy news in a phone call, and then you have to scramble to make last minute plane reservations, which are not cheap, fly into Raleigh/Durham, rent a car, drive through Greensboro, up through Danville, Virginia and then through Middle of Nowhere, Virginia to get to Carlbrook. It's all sudden, and you have to unexpectedly schedule time off work. On top of that, your kid is upset, and you and your spouse are upset, and you don't have a lot of time to figure out what the hell to do. "
I hear the screech of a lone violin. Care for some cheese with that whine? Poor parents: Needing to schedule time off work; book expensive flights; and deal with the stress of a child's upset. This is the price a parent should pay, for sending a child far away--to the boonies or elsewhere.
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On 2006-01-19 08:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-18 19:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
" You get the unhappy news in a phone call, and then you have to scramble to make last minute plane reservations, which are not cheap, fly into Raleigh/Durham, rent a car, drive through Greensboro, up through Danville, Virginia and then through Middle of Nowhere, Virginia to get to Carlbrook. It's all sudden, and you have to unexpectedly schedule time off work. On top of that, your kid is upset, and you and your spouse are upset, and you don't have a lot of time to figure out what the hell to do. "
I hear the screech of a lone violin. Care for some cheese with that whine? Poor parents: Needing to schedule time off work; book expensive flights; and deal with the stress of a child's upset. This is the price a parent should pay, for sending a child far away--to the boonies or elsewhere."
I live in Raleigh. Wanna go for a ride?Our youth can not understand why society chooses to criminalize a behavior with so little visible ill effect or adverse social impact... These young people have jumped the fence and found no cliff.
Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse
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My son was asked to leave Carlbrook early, too. They relented (after I raised hell) and allowed him to finish the academic quarter. The school decided that he wasn't going to complete the 14 month program because we were looking at other schools (prep boarding schools), so they didn't want him there with a short-timer's attitude. He came home that May, after 9 months at Carlbrook, 7 weeks of which were spent back in wilderness. Tim Brace does not run the school. Grant Price does. The real bozo there is Glenn Bender. He is totally worthless. He purported to be the academic dean when my son was there. Believe it or not, there are some excellent academic teachers there. They tend to have a lot of conflicts with the administration and also with the therapeutic staff, for obvious reasons. The weaker academic teachers don't last long there. The parent body at Carlbrook is pretty demanding and a lot of the kids came from top academic schools. The parents expect good academics and Carlbrook generally delivers. There are some outstanding therapists, although the best one, Robert Somers, got booted for making an insensitive remark.
You can slam me and call me a program parent, which I am not. I am giving you my objective opinion about the school. It isn't perfect. It does a good job in some areas, and is probably the best of the lot. Whatever Tim did at his prior schools, it isn't going on at Carlbrook. I am NOT a Tim Brace fan- I find him too emotional and teary. I will say that he showed my son kindness and compassion which led to some break-throughs in his pent-up anger. My son did not buy into the program. He moved from total resistance to faking it enough to get by. He was very engaged in his academics which led to his acceptance to some top prep boarding schools- even with Carlbrook on his record. He broke a lot of rules at Carlbrook and was on bans (not allowed to speak) with most of his peer-group. I believe after the staff knew he was leaving early, that he was emotionally abused by several of the therapists and Glenn Bender in particular. My son asked me not to intervene- he wanted to prove to himself that he could survive the last month no matter what they threw at him. He remains in touch with a number of Carlbrook classmates- two of whom are at his prep school with him now. He also keeps in touch with some of the senior staff- he communicates with one of the top guys in Latin.
To my surprise, my son liked the workshops and was upset that he was leaving Carlbrook before he got to finish them (not that he wanted to stay any longer....).
So- was Carlbrook the right thing? I think it was the best option we had. My son agrees with that in that it has allowed him to be where he is today (at a top prep school heading for a top college). He thinks wilderness was the better program as far as emotional growth. We were given some incorrect (i.e. totally misleading) information at the time our son was enrolled at Carlbrook. The school was still fairly new and there were some glitches in the system. I think it has improved. They have a waiting list, so they can be pretty picky about who they admit.
Grant Price is a very intelligent young man who has done an incredible job of building his dream of an emotional growth school based on a different model than Cascade or any of the others. He is a difficult person and not many of the boys at Carlbrook can stand him- until they graduate. Tim Brace is harmless. Glenn Bender is lethal.
Take it for what it is worth.
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GLENN BENDER...there's another old time RMA'er...funny how those guys seem to stick together...and I agree with you completely.
It is nicce to hear that you have found a prep school for your son that sounds like one of the "non theraputic" types. There are many good choices out there. It doesn't have to be one of the "Ivy League" to still afford him a quality education and a good time to boot.
He'll have the opportunity to get into trouble there more than at Carlbrook...don't worry...this is actually a good thing in a way. That way...by the time he gets to college, he will have already lived away from home and most likely will eschew the pervasive party atmosphere in college as he will be able to recognize that there are a lot of kids in college who are getting "cut loose" for the first time. The importance of school won't be clouded by the new found freedom that most college students experience...just my opinion though.
If your son got into trouble at carlbrook...especially to the point of being asked to leave...then as they would have said at RMA he "wasn't getting with the program". This is a good thing...it's not that one can't pull good life lessons from their experiences at these schools...but the negatives that come from "getting with the program" as I did lead me to believe that even for parents that are at their wits end with their children...there are still other options. It sounds like you have found a god option for him currently.
It also sounds like your son will do well. I would only suggest that as he grows over the years, to take a look at the world around him. Take notice of how people interact what they say/don't say, etc etc etc. When viewing the world outside the programs, one starts to realize that certain aspects of the program that although may seem benign...or even beneficial at the time really do not apply to real world situations. If I could sum things up in a sentence I would say "Be a good person, be kind to others, but keep your hand close to your chest as they say...what applied on the inside does not apply on the outside always"
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Thanks for your courteous reply. My son had already been at a "normal" boarding school. He got kicked out of a day prep school (he is very strong academically and athletically) at the end of 8th grade for fighting. The only option was boarding. It worked fine for 9th grade, but he got kicked out in March of 10th grade. You'll have to trust me when I say that he was totally out of control. (he would agree) We didn't make the decision to send him to wilderness and jeopardize his academic and athletic future without a lot of heartache. The best thing that came out of his time away was that he recognized what he was costing himself by the impulsivity that got him kicked out of school. Now 19, he still pushes the limits, but he has done well enough that he will be attending his first choice college (an Ivy) in the fall. One of the Carlbrook kids in school with him now got into one of the top midwest liberal arts colleges early decision, and the other kid is being recruited for basketball by several universities.
My point is that there is a lot of success after Carlbrook. There are also a lot of failures. A girl from our hometown who was at Carlbrook didn't last a semester at college. She has been in and out of rehab since Carlbrook.
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Glenn Bender.. when was he at RMA? What was his position or family he was with? I don't remember him. He sounds awful.
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glenn was gone before you arrived...he was involved more with older students when i got their. I never had much interaction with him but he was always "pulling people up"
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I remember when I first got there I used to call that "pushing people down".
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Bender tries to blind people with his PhD. He wanders around the school doing little good, but looks impressive on the school's list of directors.
If you cross him, he will never get over it- parent OR kid!
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My point is that there is a lot of success after Carlbrook. There are also a lot of failures. A girl from our hometown who was at Carlbrook didn't last a semester at college. She has been in and out of rehab since Carlbrook.
Thats not a point, thats a pointless statement.
Youre simply saying "well this kid who came out of it is ok now so whatever your grievances are invalid" in different words. Thats not proof that carlbrook is good, effective, or even non-harmful. Saying that someone survived it is not good enough to condone sending someone there, especially when its not a secret that its just another LGA-based mindfuck! Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Whatever parent posted below about Tim Brace being harmless and Glenn Bender being lethal is an idiot. If any of the staff runs the school besides Grant Price and Justin Merritt, it is Tim Brace. I am speaking as a graduate of Carlbrook. Tim Brace has been used as the resident figurehead of all the school stands for. Glenn Bender is rarely involved with any of the so-called "emotional growth" in the boarding school. He is the academic dean and, while I'm sure he does have a say in the school (he is on the Board of Regents), I only saw him in a few of the groups. Yes, he is one of the top people you don't want to piss off. Why? He is one of the smartest people I've ever met. His bite is lethal. But it takes quite a bit to instill it. I pissed him off several times during my stay but is one of the few people I actually like in retrospect.
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It's funny how most of the things being brought up in this forum are things I myself brought up while at Carlbrook... to parents who may send your children to these schools, I challenge you to take the time to do the research on the negative aspects of these programs. The workshops they use (another name for LGAT) have no long-term psychological benefit. In fact, many LGATs have induced psychotic breakdowns. They try to piss you off as much as possible, then make you break down and cry. They are a school. They make large sums of money. Do the math. There are over 100 kids at this school. Each student pays over 100,000 for a 16 month program. Many great regular boarding schools charge this much for about 4 years of school. The average staff member does not make a lot of money. When I was there, they crammed 5 people in a dorm room originally meant for 2 people, yet continued to state that they weren't about the money.
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There are over 100 kids at this school. Each student pays over 100,000 for a 16 month program
That's one SPICY meatball! $$$$$$$$$$$
Since when did helping teens become such a hugely profitable business? What a crock.
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Nice new screen name- no, I don't think you are a Carlbrook graduate. Amazing how you sound JUST like Dysfunction and some of the other regulars on here.
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Nope, it ain't DJ. Doesn't even sound like DJ to me. You're graspin' at straws, darlin, graspin' at straws.
Anyone who's really interested in the nuts and bolts history of this sordid industry, I would highly recomend snagging a copy of Maia Szalavitz new book, Help At Any Cost.
What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that
they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.
--Thomas Sowell
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Hi! I went on and registered! Carlbrook Graduate does indeed sound like someone who went there. The dorm rooms were cramped for four people, and when they decided to add a fifth boy to each room, many students and parents were very unhappy. The girl's dorms were not affected by this change. At the time, they did not have a waiting list for girls, but had a large waiting list for boys.
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The dorm rooms were too crowded- I agree with you there. I don't agree that the place is raking in the money. It costs a ton for insurance and to run the physical facility. It's a 24/7 operation.
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. They make large sums of money. Do the math. There are over 100 kids at this school. Each student pays over 100,000 for a 16 month program. Many great regular boarding schools charge this much for about 4 years of school.
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On 2006-01-24 05:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nice new screen name- no, I don't think you are a Carlbrook graduate. Amazing how you sound JUST like Dysfunction and some of the other regulars on here."
Not me, moron. I have a username and I use it.
Ever think that some people just have similar opinions? Maybe that's too much to wrap your little brain around. Not to mention that I would have no idea what the dorms are like or how many kids in the rooms or the differences between boys' and girls' dorms.
Nice of you to take a poke at it though. I'd suggest you talk directly to the poster who you think is me and ask THAT person to clarify.
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On 2006-01-25 07:44:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 05:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nice new screen name- no, I don't think you are a Carlbrook graduate. Amazing how you sound JUST like Dysfunction and some of the other regulars on here."
Not me, moron. I have a username and I use it.
Ever think that some people just have similar opinions? Maybe that's too much to wrap your little brain around. Not to mention that I would have no idea what the dorms are like or how many kids in the rooms or the differences between boys' and girls' dorms.
Nice of you to take a poke at it though. I'd suggest you talk directly to the poster who you think is me and ask THAT person to clarify."
They must have assumed you were taking a page out of THEIR book.
As we used to say in raps: that Carlbrookie "must be projecting".
_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."
-Trevor Goodchild
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-25 18:46 ]
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For those of you, whether you are a parent or a former student, need to understand that Carlbrook does not fix anyone. I see many people that leave the school and they base their life around repeating every tool and trick they teach you at the school. Your kid will grow up on their own based on their own experiences. Carlbrook offers many great things, but once they leave they have to mature on their own. There is absolutely no point in criticizing the school, the students, or the staff for not being able to fully 'mature' you or your child. Thats life.
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yeah, well CEDU never claimed to fix you either. They said "because you weren't broken to begin with."
awwwwwww... how fucking warm and fuzzy.
You're going to need to try better than using that old bullshit line.
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Maturation is a natural process and locking someone up does not speed up this process in any way. It will make it seem like it does, because you are away for so long. It's all an illusion. One big bad illusion.
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But- while they are locked up (your term, not mine) they are safe and are being educated (at least in the case of Carlbrook) and are gaining some tools and maturity.
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The only "tools" are the ones dumb enough to shell out 80-100k per year for the unaccredited education, the behavior modification and the LGAT workshops.
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On 2006-01-26 09:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But- while they are locked up (your term, not mine) they are safe and are being educated (at least in the case of Carlbrook) and are gaining some tools and maturity. "
(http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/neomoniker/thBSmeter.gif)
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Ha. You don't think I went to Carlbrook? Ask me anything you wish kind sir. Integritas, Amicitia, Animus, Teneo, Veneratio? Who's your hero? What about your truth? Or how about your superhero? No, I know, what's your lie? What about your nightmare? How about you go do some bioenergetics? Go listen to your fucking Mike and the Mechanics, or do you not remember the song it's not easy? I don't know who you are and I honestly don't care. I speak from my experiences and I don't speak for anybody but myself. I say what I saw with my eyes during my incarceration. Yes, I said incarceration. What else do you call a place that the staff is able to withhold and monitor all your communications with family and friends? Where you are monitored by security at night and every window and door has an alarm? Don't try to discredit me because you can't believe the truth.
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On 2006-02-01 02:09:00, Carlbrook Graduate wrote:
"Ha. You don't think I went to Carlbrook? Ask me anything you wish kind sir. Integritas, Amicitia, Animus, Teneo, Veneratio? Who's your hero? What about your truth? Or how about your superhero? No, I know, what's your lie? What about your nightmare? How about you go do some bioenergetics? Go listen to your fucking Mike and the Mechanics, or do you not remember the song it's not easy? I don't know who you are and I honestly don't care. I speak from my experiences and I don't speak for anybody but myself. I say what I saw with my eyes during my incarceration. Yes, I said incarceration. What else do you call a place that the staff is able to withhold and monitor all your communications with family and friends? Where you are monitored by security at night and every window and door has an alarm? Don't try to discredit me because you can't believe the truth."
I've said it all along - the truth will emerge. It only takes time to get the facts out. Even the hypervigilance of the program control freaks just can't suppress reality forever.
Thanks for posting, CG.
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Don't try to discredit me because you can't believe the truth.
Nah.. don't worry about the trolls-- all they do is try to muck up this forum with misinformation. They are not interested in discussion so much as hiding the truth amongst mass amounts of bullshit.
Welcome to fornits, hope you stick around.
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When did you graduate, Carlbrook Grad? You aren't the Carlbrook kid who just got arrested for a felony in Chicago, are you? Out on bail? Breaking into 40 cars? The program didn't work so well for that kid.
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Nope, wasn't me. Hearing about that surprised the shit out of me though, he was a nice kid. He had a nice life too, nice car, the works.
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Carlbrook Grad is genuine. I don't know how many of you are ex-program kids, or program parents. I do know that there is generally a difference of opinion between the kids and the parents. So I asked my kid, if I had just left you alone, put up with you, continued with therapy and hoped you just outgrew your stupid, destructive phase, would you have been ok? He said "no." He said he needed the wilderness to have some time to understand and deal with himself and needed a school such as Carlbrook after that. If you've ever seen the grief experienced by a parent whose kid is in prison, or dead (and I know both) what happens is that you love your kid, and you'd do absolutely anything for him to be ok. Including send him to a program. It hurts. Ex program kids, think of it this way: you have a cute, but stupid puppy. The damn thing runs out into traffic every chance it gets. It's going to get killed. First you fence in the back yard. Puppy digs under the fence and is out in traffic again. You rescue him in the nick of time, and put him back in the fenced yard, and this time he's tied to a tree. Puppy is safe, puppy hates it, and you feel like you did the best you could, but you still feel like shit. You hurt whenever you see poor puppy out in the yard. You wish he could run loose, and stay out of trouble. I feel a little better that my kid says he was helped by wilderness and Carlbrook, but it still hurts. I tried to think about what I'd do if a time machine took us back four years, but I don't have an answer for you. It still hurts.
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Ex program kids, think of it this way: you have a cute, but stupid puppy
:roll:
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On 2006-02-02 18:39:00, Selfish Parent wrote:
"Carlbrook Grad is genuine. I don't know how many of you are ex-program kids, or program parents. I do know that there is generally a difference of opinion between the kids and the parents. So I asked my kid, if I had just left you alone, put up with you, continued with therapy and hoped you just outgrew your stupid, destructive phase, would you have been ok? He said "no." He said he needed the wilderness to have some time to understand and deal with himself and needed a school such as Carlbrook after that. If you've ever seen the grief experienced by a parent whose kid is in prison, or dead (and I know both) what happens is that you love your kid, and you'd do absolutely anything for him to be ok. Including send him to a program. It hurts. Ex program kids, think of it this way: you have a cute, but stupid puppy. The damn thing runs out into traffic every chance it gets. It's going to get killed. First you fence in the back yard. Puppy digs under the fence and is out in traffic again. You rescue him in the nick of time, and put him back in the fenced yard, and this time he's tied to a tree. Puppy is safe, puppy hates it, and you feel like you did the best you could, but you still feel like shit. You hurt whenever you see poor puppy out in the yard. You wish he could run loose, and stay out of trouble. I feel a little better that my kid says he was helped by wilderness and Carlbrook, but it still hurts. I tried to think about what I'd do if a time machine took us back four years, but I don't have an answer for you. It still hurts. "
I have curb trained many a puppy to not run into the street. They never needed a leash to be walked, either. So, do you curb train the puppy, or tie it to a tree? Curb training takes time and patience and there is some risk involved. Tying the puppy to a tree is the lazy way out.
BTW, my former girlfriend, the vet, who taught me to curb train puppies, also taught me how to housebreak them. She NEVER hits or shames the puppy and it only takes about a week. Once again, it requires time and patience and being there.
Oh, sorry. I forgot. You qualified your puppy as stupid.
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I understand what selfish parent is saying, but I disagree. Personally, I loved the wilderness. I was told I should've graduated within 4 weeks but my parents didn't decide what they wanted me to do, so I was out there for close to 2 months. Honestly, something like that was good for me. I made a lot of changes. 2 months away from what I was doing was great for me. Not 2 years. You don't know whether or not your child would've grown out of it within 2 years. A lot of the people who went through there still haven't changed a bit. Is the failure or success a reflection on the program or is it a reflection on their maturation process? You have to want to change no matter where you are, whether it's a rehab or therapeutic boarding school. Eventually you're going to realize you want to change or you don't. If you do, you make the effort to do so yourself. You make all the changes yourself. You make all the choices. BTW, I know a lot of families who were forced to sell their houses in order to send their children to Carlbrook. Don't you think that if they really cared for the well-being of the students and their families they'd have a financial aid program? How can a company claim to, and in the words of many Carlbrook staff, "be in the business of helping people" and then tell a family they need to come up with the money no matter what the cost to their lives?[ This Message was edited by: Carlbrook Graduate on 2006-02-02 23:43 ]
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CarlbrookGrad, I sent you a private message.
I agree that wilderness is the strongest part of the program.
There are financial aid/financing plans available for all these schools. There are no scholarships.
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I don't really understand how alot of you can sit there and say these things about Carlbrook. As a Carlbrook graduate who turned my life around I can say that yes, the school does have some problems, and yes, it doesn't fix anyone (although they never claim that they are supposed to)...but regardless you can't tell me that the people that worked there at that school didn't care. I have been to therapist, I have been to rehab, and I have been to pastors and never did I feel cared about like I did when I was at Carlbrook. While they may be making money, there is no way that they are making bank. First, they haven't even finished building the school yet and second they have to pay staff for 24 hrs a day 7 days a week. For the kids that say they went to Carlbrook and that its bullshit, I think that I want you to get over the bitter attitude that you have from your parents sending you there. You may have given up two years of your high school life but are those years really that great anyways? Also, if your one of the graduates that went back to doing exactly what you were doing before then thats your choice. You made the consious choice to go back and do what you were doing before. No program can take away that choice and at least your parents cared enough about you to make such a big investment into the possiblilty that you may come out a better person with higher morals. If not, then at least they tried. You pointing out all the things wrong with Carlbrook and its staff is just you pointing out all the things wrong in life. I went there too, I went through it too, and I came out and made some bad desisions but overall, I'm a better person and I wouldn't change the experiance for anything.
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Why is it you people can not speak in terms of what the program does, what the changes are, and how it caused them, specifically, instead of with these glittering generalities?
Its all about feelings, and vague positive things.
And, well, the typical load of shit:
"No program can take away that choice and at least your parents cared enough about you to make such a big investment into the possiblilty that you may come out a better person with higher morals."
What a copout :wstupid: The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
--H.L. Mencken
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You know what the methods used are, and you don't agree with them! Why should anyone engage in the same useless dialogue with you.
What works is the peer support, the counseling and mentoring by an excellent (with a few exceptions) staff, the workshops and the emphasis on self-respect and honesty. What also works are clear consequences for violation of rules. It is a simple system, but it works.
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On 2006-02-06 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You know what the methods used are, and you don't agree with them! Why should anyone engage in the same useless dialogue with you.
What works is the peer support, the counseling and mentoring by an excellent (with a few exceptions) staff, the workshops and the emphasis on self-respect and honesty. What also works are clear consequences for violation of rules. It is a simple system, but it works."
You say it works. That is a statement borne of ignorance and wishful thinking.
Kindly cite ANY clinical research that shows a BM program works. Show JUST ONE and I'll concede the point (although Niles probably won't). Show the research.
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I don't believe in clinical research. The anon poster summed it up really well. End of story.
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On 2006-02-06 14:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't believe in clinical research. The anon poster summed it up really well. End of story. "
Allow me to re-synopsize your position for you:
"I'm an idiot."
or
"I prefer experimental or knowingly harmful treatment for my kid."
or
"I shelled out all that cash and I'm so deeply invested that no matter what clinical research shows I reject it out-of-hand."
With your level of rational thought, it's no wonder they roped your stupid ass in with a shiny brochure and a wink.
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It is a simple system, but it works.
WRONG. Try again.
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It works for many kids- not all. This is the research- the kids who have been through th eprogram!
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On 2006-02-06 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You know what the methods used are, and you don't agree with them! Why should anyone engage in the same useless dialogue with you.
What works is the peer support, the counseling and mentoring by an excellent (with a few exceptions) staff, the workshops and the emphasis on self-respect and honesty. What also works are clear consequences for violation of rules. It is a simple system, but it works."
Oh, I do! I do know!
Do you? Could you even BEGIN to explain what they are? :roll: Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
--Rep. Robert L. Henry, TX December 22, 1914 (quoting Lincoln)
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... Ex program kids, think of it this way: you have a cute, but stupid puppy. The damn thing runs out into traffic every chance it gets. It's going to get killed. First you fence in the back yard. Puppy digs under the fence and is out in traffic again. You rescue him in the nick of time, and put him back in the fenced yard, and this time he's tied to a tree. Puppy is safe, puppy hates it, and you feel like you did the best you could, but you still feel like shit. You hurt whenever you see poor puppy out in the yard. You wish he could run loose, and stay out of trouble.
Woman, I'd hate to be your dog. Never even allowed in the house, much less given proper guidance? Why don't you even mention "house" or "home" in your analogy?
Probably because you consider your dwelling YOUR home . Not the pup's home, not the kid's home. It's YOURS all yours , and be damned anyone who crosses you, for a nervous piddle on the $8,000 Persian rug is as distasteful to you as the faint smell of cigarettes in the newly wallpapered room, and deserves to be punished to the fullest extent.
I feel a little better that my kid says he was helped by wilderness and Carlbrook, but it still hurts. I tried to think about what I'd do if a time machine took us back four years, but I don't have an answer for you. It still hurts. "
Oh look, here comes the martyrdom.
Of course your kid says it helped. Dare he not challenge the Throne of the Home who put him in the place where the only escape was to acquiesce... so he could get... back... home.
You make me sick.Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
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On 2006-02-06 20:30:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
... Ex program kids, think of it this way: you have a cute, but stupid puppy. The damn thing runs out into traffic every chance it gets. It's going to get killed. First you fence in the back yard. Puppy digs under the fence and is out in traffic again. You rescue him in the nick of time, and put him back in the fenced yard, and this time he's tied to a tree. Puppy is safe, puppy hates it, and you feel like you did the best you could, but you still feel like shit. You hurt whenever you see poor puppy out in the yard. You wish he could run loose, and stay out of trouble.
Woman, I'd hate to be your dog. Never even allowed in the house, much less given proper guidance? Why don't you even mention "house" or "home" in your analogy?
Probably because you consider your dwelling YOUR home . Not the pup's home, not the kid's home. It's YOURS all yours , and be damned anyone who crosses you, for a nervous piddle on the $8,000 Persian rug is as distasteful to you as the faint smell of cigarettes in the newly wallpapered room, and deserves to be punished to the fullest extent.
I feel a little better that my kid says he was helped by wilderness and Carlbrook, but it still hurts. I tried to think about what I'd do if a time machine took us back four years, but I don't have an answer for you. It still hurts. "
Oh look, here comes the martyrdom.
Of course your kid says it helped. Dare he not challenge the Throne of the Home who put him in the place where the only escape was to acquiesce... so he could get... back... home.
You make me sick.Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
"
well said
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Oh look, here comes the martyrdom.
:nworthy:
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To the parent who sent me a PM- please send your e-mail again, I did know your son. To the other person who went to Carlbrook on this forum- I don't know how you could've sat through a group and call that peer support. 15 people all yelling at their best friends about how their life is going downhill because they repeatedly don't tuck in their shirt. Somehow this is brought up as a symptom of the greater problem, a teenager's non-conformity with a belief system that they just don't happen to believe in. Having your best friends take your most personal things and throw them out at you in front of 15 people is supportive? Getting yelled at more because of the simple fact that you don't feel like crying? I witnessed that bullshit as well as being involved in it. If you have a problem with someone or something that they're doing, how about you be the strong individual that Carlbrook speaks so much about and confront the person yourself? When I even said something discounting the crazed group mentality, the bite of the beast would turn on me. They would ask why I was so defiant, why I wasn't helping them "rail" this person, how I obviously didn't care. Tough Love? I'm sorry, I didn't know that you show love to people by betraying their trust. I wasn't aware that saying the most fucked up things you could ever say to somebody shows that you love them that much more. Any of you readers who have never experienced a Group Therapy session, I suggest you read Ken Kesey's One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest. It's about as accurate a representation as you will ever find on how ridiculous these sessions are. Under the guise of creating a stronger individual, they strip you of your individuality, making you conform to what they want. Start thinking for yourself and stop repeating the mantras that have been embedded in your heads. You work harder to sell the institution than they do. Who are you trying to prove that it's good to? Why do you care what a bunch of people on a message board that's mostly anti-RTC have to say? If you don't weigh both sides of the equation, you can't give an honest opinion.[ This Message was edited by: Carlbrook Graduate on 2006-02-07 04:00 ]
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I wasn't aware that saying the most fucked up things you could ever say to somebody shows that you love them
Boy, you hit it right on the head. Spot on.
What people need to understand is that the "group therapy" provided at Carlbrook, like all BM centers, is punitive, not therapeutic. It is merely an extension of the culture of punishment. It has been shown time and time again by numerous clinical studies and anecdotal accounts that IT DOES NOT WORK and it's never going to.
I can't believe how incredibly stupid some people are to buy into this complete and utter "therapy" scam.
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On 2006-02-06 16:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It works for many kids- not all. This is the research- the kids who have been through th eprogram! "
This is BS. The percentage of kids who were "helped" by this type of program happens to be the exact same percentage as random chance. That is, if you did NOTHING your kid would have the same chance of success as if you sent him to a program. Educate yourself to the facts before you try to have an argument with anyone who has a grasp of reality.
You're bringing a knife to a gunfight, slick.
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"That is, if you did NOTHING your kid would have the same chance of success as if you sent him to a program"
That could be, but the fact remains that some kids get to a point where they can't live in the home or in the community. After a couple wrecked cars, school dismissals, violence towards family members, wilderness and TBS allow the kid and family to be safe while some maturity is gained. If some therapeutic progress is made,all the better.
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wilderness and TBS allow the kid and family to be safe while some maturity is gained.
You can't be serious.
Firstly, there is nothing "safe" about exposing your child to a peer-culture of delinquents. All relevent data show that juvenile delinquency is enhanced by placing children in RTC environments, i.e. they usually exacerbate the presentling problem.
Secondly, children often become victims of crime or abuse in facilities where they are warehoused with serious offenders (violent felony offenders, sexual predators, sociopaths, etc) of which Carlbrook certainly has its share. Or they learn new maladaptive behaviors from these peers.
Thirdly, BM programs and LGAT workshops are both proven methods of inducing regression. They are well known to stifle the maturation process.
Maybe you should try to stick to some things you actually understand in your discussions. It is crystal clear that you have no idea about what you speak.
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If you are trying to describe Carlbrook in that post, DJ, it is YOU who have no idea what you are talking about. Carlbrook takes a very limited type of kid- and that does NOT include sexual predators or violent felons. My kid was exposing himself to a peer culture of delinquents at home!
DJ- I continue to be amazed at your anger and hostility. Why is it so hard for you to admit that not every kid is harmed beyond redemption by the upper-tier programs such as Carlbrook?
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DJ- I continue to be amazed at your anger and hostility. Why is it so hard for you to admit that not every kid is harmed beyond redemption by the upper-tier programs such as Carlbrook?
Your anger/hostility meter needs a calibration. I'm a flat affect kinda guy.
I never said that every kid is harmed. What I said is that programs like Carlbrook do more harm than good. That is a proven fact. If you have valid research that shows otherwise, I'd be glad to read it.
And you're wrong when you say that there are not violent kids or sexual predators there. Just read the accounts of the kids that went there. I'm sure the facility tells you that they don't take these types of kids, but it's simply not true. How do you explain the fact that they take court-mandated kids? If they're mandated, you can bet it wasn't for poor grades or "underachieving."
I'm continually shocked and amazed at the lengths to which you people will go to defend a program you've never been in, that has no basis in accepted mental health practice, that uses behavior modification (abundantly proven not to work) and LGAT workshops (proven harmful, especially to developing minds).
You're the sick ones. You sent your kids there. I just pointed it out and people like you hate being exposed for exactly what you are: parental failures. You should be taking issue with yourself and your peers, not me. Decades of research and applied theory support my point of view, not yours. You seek "treatment" for your kid that has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be damaging.
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I must have missed the post where someone who attended Carlbrook said there were violent felons and sexual predators there.
There was one staff member with some issues who was fired as soon as they came to light. He was actually a highly degreed therapist.
I admit I failed in many ways as a parent. My kid would agree. Sending him to Carlbrook was not one of the ways. In ways perhaps unique to him, it saved his educational future and got him back on track. He hated Carlbrook and didn't buy into much of the therapy. ALL of the kids in his group were from middle to upper class families and had issues ranging from substance abuse to promiscuity. Most were decent to strong students. None had been convicted of a crime. None had been in RTC prior to Carlbrook. All had attended wilderness and all but one or two felt positive about wilderness. So-where is all this abuse and harm?
Some kids come out of Carlbrook and go back to substance abuse. Some bomb out in college. Some get arrested. Many do just fine. Some, like my son, go on to top colleges. So-excuse me if I don't buy your crap.
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***ALL of the kids in his group were from middle to upper class families and had issues ranging from substance abuse to promiscuity. Most were decent to strong students. None had been convicted of a crime. None had been in RTC prior to Carlbrook. All had attended wilderness and all but one or two felt positive about wilderness. So-where is all this abuse and harm?
How would a 'parent' be privy to all this inside information unless you read each kid's file and 'treatment' notes? How do you know that all but 1 or 2 felt positive about wilderness?
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The groups were small and the parents all got to know each other pretty well. There were a number of parent-group seminars and lots of time to talk. In addition, my son filled me in on the backgrounds of the kids. Carlbrook is quite clear on what type of kids they will take. It really has the feel of a small prep school. Grant Price is very protective of the place and has final say on who gets to attend.
There are just over 100 kids there at a time. We had parent email lists (discouraged by the school but organized by parents). It wasn't all that hard to learn about the other families.
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Some bomb out in college. Some get arrested. Many do just fine. Some, like my son, go on to top colleges. So-excuse me if I don't buy your crap.
Exactly the same outcome they would have had without going to Carlbrook. Thank you for agreeing with me.
It's not my crap. It's your crap. You paid an egregious sum of money to get the same results as rolling the dice. Nice job.
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"Exactly the same outcome they would have had without going to Carlbrook."
If they weren't at Carlbrook, where were they going to be? Your feeble little brain is having trouble grasping the fact that these kids had exhausted the educational and societal resources in their communities. They were on the verge of arrest or serious harm to themselves and others. Living at home where they were stealing, displaying violent behavior and getting kicked out of schools was not possible. Carlbrook was a safety net for these kids. And- it worked. You can not document your claim that the results with any given kid would have been the same without Carlbrook. Remember- being there gave them a year to 15 months to mature and decide how they wanted to live their lives. Whether or not the program impacted them meaningfully, the maturation can not be denied.
Getting it yet, DJ?
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Hey Dummy, I get your argument. The problem is that your points aren't valid.
You yourself said that AFTER Carlbrook many kids bomb out, go to jail, etc. My point is that if they were left alone and not sent to Carlbrook, many would do fine, a few would go to top colleges and many would fail. EXACTLY the same result.
Again, dummy, I have years of clinical research that says this is the case. Show me JUST ONE clinical study that shows TBS's improve a child's chances of success. JUST ONE and I'll concede the point.
The problem here is that you (notably uneducated and lacking the cognitive resources to engage in this debate) choose not to accept facts that have been long and well established. That's on you. You're not smart enough to grasp reality. I'm not going to be able to assist you with this little problem. You might read "The Art of Missing the Point: When You Can't Afford to Catch On."
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I'm continually shocked and amazed at the lengths to which you people will go to defend a program you've never been in,
That says it all right there. In what other context are people so darn defensive? Think about it.
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But if they aren't at Carlbrook, where are they? On the streets? If so, the results are NOT going to be very good. What you are missing here is that Leaving Them Alone is NOT an option. They are minors and the parents are responsible for them. They can not remain in the home because of their behavior.
The choices are extremely limited. Some action has to be taken by the families. If you are fortunate enough to be able to afford Carlbrook, great. If not, the kid goes to a sub-par treatment center or juvie. Regular boarding school? Oh, wait! These kids have already been kicked out!
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My point is that if they were left alone and not sent to Carlbrook, many would do fine, a few would go to top colleges and many would fail. EXACTLY the same result.
These type of programs drive a lot of kids - who had relatively minor problems to begin with - much deeper into whatever psychological or drug problems they had before entering. Listening to this parent saying 'it's about as good as not doing anything' is very telling. Why not just say what it is? Wharehousing teens. See? I did it, it's not that hard. If these people were truly interested in HELPING these kids, they easily could. Instead, they make excuses, and claim the wharehousing itself is therapy. Then spend years after the fact defending that decision to strangers online.
You know how it goes... watch what they do, not what they say.
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Some action has to be taken by the families. If you are un-fortunate enough to be able to afford Carlbrook, the kid goes to a sub-par treatment center.
Fixed it for you.
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But if they aren't at Carlbrook, where are they? On the streets? If so, the results are NOT going to be very good. What you are missing here is that Leaving Them Alone is NOT an option.
You keep telling yourself that. You have a strong need to defend your behavior and your precious program. That's your business.
I've been involved with this type of business for far longer than you, dummy. I have vast experience where you have none. I am a degreed mental health professional, you are quite obviously not.
I post online to bring a level of consciousness to many brain-dead parents like yourself. Wheteher or not you want to admit it, you dumped your kid in a warehouse so you wouldn't be bothered with rearing him (hey, you did a lousy job of it, why not just quit altogether?).
If your kid truly had the level of disturbance you described, he would belong in a locked mental hospital, not a TBS. It is obvious that your inherent need to keep justifying your behavior means that it simply isn't justifiable. If it were, you'd be content and happy with your decision. You wouldn't spend hours and hours trolling message boards trying to justify yourself to strangers.
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I don't feel the need to justify anything. I am not a mental health professional, but I AM a parent. That gives me a lot of insight that you don't have. I did a terrible job of parenting my kid in many respects. Some of his issues had nothing to do with his parenting. As a parent, I was unable to do many things without turning to outside help. I couldn't treat his strept throat, torn ACL or impacted wisdom teeth. I had to take him to doctors and dentists. When it became clear that I could no longer help him with his emotional issues, AND after all local resources were exhausted, I sent him to wilderness.
If my son acknowledges that we had no choice but to send him away, why is it so hard for YOU to accept it? As a trained mental health professional (scarey thought), you might examine what bothers you so much about the fact that some of these kids go through programs, are not mis-treated or abused, and come out just fine.
Didn't you read the letter Rico Moreno wrote? It was posted somewhere on this thread, I think.
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they were stealing, displaying violent behavior and getting kicked out of schools
and
Carlbrook is quite clear on what type of kids they will take. It really has the feel of a small prep school. Grant Price is very protective of the place and has final say on who gets to attend.
Yeah, they're quite clear on who they take: violent, thieving hooligans. I can see how it is viewed as a prep school now. Thanks for explaining that so clearly. :roll:
So which is it? A clean-cut prep school with only the best and brightest attending? Or an unaccredited, unlicensed RTC warehousing violent, thieving thugs?
The answer seems to be "whatever is convenient." If one of these brain-dead parents is praising Carlbrook, then it is a prep school. If they are saying how their kid was so out of control he needed to be locked up (demonizing their child), then it is a kiddie jail. Carlbrook is all things to all people. Just ask their marketing department.
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I did a terrible job of parenting my kid
I guess an admission like this is the first step, but you've got a long way to go.
And BTW, what do you expect your kid to say? "Carlbrook was fucked up and I just faked my way through it"?
He's not as dumb as you think. He knows his ass will be kidnapped in the middle of the night and be headed right back for another two years of living hell. He'd have to be an idiot to talk honestly or openly with you ever again. It is guaranteed to have disasterous results.
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He was at Carlbrook for less than a year. He is 19, so he isn't likely to be kidnapped in the middle of the night. Yes, he made it very clear what he thought about Carlbrook- the good and the bad. He isn't one to hide what he thinks. He relied on us (his parents) to help him get into his next school. He communicates just fine when he wants something- just like most 19 year olds. I found that most of the wilderness and Carlbrook parents that I met were perfectly willing to admit their parenting mistakes. It is a process that lend itself to mistakes.
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He was at Carlbrook for less than a year
So, if he didn't even "work the program" at Carlbrook, how do you credit them with fixing your kid?
Face the facts, you were a lousy parent, Carlbrook doesn't do shit and your kid grew up on his own, despite the fact you forced him into a stifling environment. Nice job, mom. Nice job.
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Where was it I said Carlbrook fixed my kid? He got some things from Carlbrook, including some good friends. He did grow up while he was there and was safe while he figured out his life. Sending him to wilderness and Carlbrook accomplished what he and we needed it to do. He was able to repair his academic transcript, figure out how to get back on track, recognize the harm he had done to himself and others and then move on!
Why is it so painful for you to say, "Hey. Glad it worked out. Carlbrook might not be so bad!"
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He did grow up while he was there
Grew up in less than a year? Yeah, uh-huh. Sure.
Sure sounds like your violent, out of control, stealing thug of a kid only needed a few months at Carlbrook to get him to grow up. Get a grip, lady. You're shot.
So which are you lying about, how bad your kid was, or the Carlbrook miracle cure? It just doesn't jive with reality, honey. :smokin:
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what a disappointing web thread =(
i am an alumni of the Carlbrook School. I graduated almost two months ago in December of 2005, with the Omicron peer class. i haven't read through this whole thing but it seems like people are debating whether the school can help people or whether it is an abusive lockdown that engages in brainwashing and deceit. the people posting don't sound incredibly open-minded and it feels like people are writing more to take stabs at each other than to actually try to understand the situation, so i'm not sure there's really anything i can write on this page that will be heard. I respect people like Rico (who is a close friend of mine) who have tried to share their experiences on this page.
so why am I writing this. i would rather not get tangled up in this argument, but if anyone out there would like to talk about Carlbrook and hear the opinion of one person, I would be more than willing to share my story. You can contact me via AIM at screenname dangerousdave or via email at [email protected].
I hope you find what you are looking for.
David Korn
December 2005 Carlbrook Alumni
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Get back to us in about two years or so. That's how long it took me to get some perspective.
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As a current Carlbrook parent - I have been somewhat skeptical over the 11 months our child has been there. I do not agree with a lot of the program, but I am now seeing a very mature person instead of a whiny selfish child evolving. Is it time or is it the Carlbrook system - who knows. All I know is that for the last 11 months I have known my child is safe and in an environment that offers a chance to change their prospective on where they want to go. I wish I could see into the future and know whether this was the right choice or just a very expensive experiment.
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Parent- that was my experience with Carlbrook while my kid was there. He didn't buy into much of the therapy, and was on "program" for much of his stay. However, he was safe, and he figured out what he was costing himself with the things he was doing pre-Carlbrook. He matured, and made a decision about where he wanted to go. He is now a senior at a top prep boarding school and was recruited as an athlete by a top academic college. I had my battles with the Carlbrook administration, but all in all, I can not see what alternative would have been better.
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So, it all boils down to "well, we dont know what to do, but if hes held captive in some program he cant run around and do things we dont think he should do or get access to drugs or the opposite sex, nevermind the seminars, hes physically safe, and even though we dont agree with it we'll just go along because we cant change our minds and doing something must be better than nothing" right?
:wstupid: Truth does not have to be accepted on faith. Scientists do not hold hands every Sunday, singing, "Yes gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! Amen.
--Dan Barker, former evangelist and author
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They aren't actually held captive- they can leave. Seems like being at Carlbrook is better than being in jail or living on the streets.
A lot of Carlbrook works. Going into it, the hope is that ALL of it will work. It's very similar to going into a course of medical treatment or physical rehab- you hope it will all work and you will be fully recovered. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It sure is better than doing nothing!
You just really can't stand to hear success stories, can you Niles?
My kid is almost 2 years out of Carlbrook (didn't graduate) and his opinion hasn't changed at all. The seminars were worthwhile (he didn't get to finish them all). A lot of the group therapy was bullshit and the kids manipulated the sessions to score points for themselves. He hated every minute of it. He made some good friends with students and faculty. He thinks he would have been OK at home after wilderness, but his life has worked out better since he spent the time at Carlbrook (in terms of where he was able to go to school next).
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"You cant stand success stories" - trying to start another emotional responce to derail the topic and put me on the defensive? :rofl: but besides that) and two years of learning how to acutally be an adult! You dont learn how to be an adult and make your own decisions, meet and pick your own friends, and set your own rules living in some program. It does nothing to prepare you for outside life, unless youre going to join the military and spend more time being obedient to someone else.
May your days be joyfully challenging and your words artfully true
-- Ginger Warbis SMA, `00
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Niles- learn to read. My kid was at Carlbrook for 9 months- he has been OUT almost 2 years (May).
No one is at Carlbrook for 2 years. It is a 14-15 month program.
I agree that many kids would mature on their own and see the light. I do not attribute most of his growth to Carlbrook. I DO credit his peers and his assessment of how they had fucked up their own lives with nudging him towards a different path. My son was at a much higher academic and athletic level than most of his peers- even though Carlbrook is one of the more academic emotional growth schools. However, my son no longer could live in our home or in our community and had no appropriate school to attend. This was the result of HIS choices- not ours. He had exhausted all his options. Wilderness was the right thing for him- he admits that and even chose to return to wilderness during his Carlbrook stint.
We've had this debate before. You can continue to ignore the reports from kids like Rico Moreno, whose letter was posted here. You have no experience with Carlbrook as a parent or a student. I doubt that you know anyone who has attended the school or worked there. The basis for your loathing is that you don't like the seminars.
Maybe Carlbrook has changed up the seminar content from what you seem to think it is, but NO grad has ever complained about them or found them harmful or painful.
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On 2006-02-13 16:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
but NO grad has ever complained about them or found them harmful or painful. "
Wow, that's a bold statement. You no every single graduate and how they feel about the seminars?
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On 2006-02-13 16:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-13 16:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
but NO grad has ever complained about them or found them harmful or painful. "
Wow, that's a bold statement. You no every single graduate and how they feel about the seminars?"
excuse me.....know, not 'no'. I'm tired.
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Yeah, they can leave to go live in jail or on the streets---allegedly. Sure. But what if one of their friends or their freinds' parents drove up to get them and offered them a place to live while they finished school, got a job, and got on their feet living on their own?
Somehow I bet if a friend or a friend's parents showed up at the door to talk to a kid and offer him a choice that was *not* jail or the street, said friend or friend's parent would be given the bum's rush and the kid never informed that he had another alternative.
Julie
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Well, Julie- for some reason that didn't happen to my son. His friends' parents had their own struggles- no one wanted another problem teen.
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Julie. What planet are YOU from?
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On 2006-02-13 16:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Niles- learn to read. My kid was at Carlbrook for 9 months- he has been OUT almost 2 years (May).
No one is at Carlbrook for 2 years. It is a 14-15 month program.
I agree that many kids would mature on their own and see the light. I do not attribute most of his growth to Carlbrook. I DO credit his peers and his assessment of how they had fucked up their own lives with nudging him towards a different path. My son was at a much higher academic and athletic level than most of his peers- even though Carlbrook is one of the more academic emotional growth schools. However, my son no longer could live in our home or in our community and had no appropriate school to attend. This was the result of HIS choices- not ours. He had exhausted all his options. Wilderness was the right thing for him- he admits that and even chose to return to wilderness during his Carlbrook stint.
We've had this debate before. You can continue to ignore the reports from kids like Rico Moreno, whose letter was posted here. You have no experience with Carlbrook as a parent or a student. I doubt that you know anyone who has attended the school or worked there. The basis for your loathing is that you don't like the seminars.
Maybe Carlbrook has changed up the seminar content from what you seem to think it is, but NO grad has ever complained about them or found them harmful or painful. "
Ok, I mistook what you had to say. 9 months, ending 2 years ago. I retract that.
I do however think its funny that you admit that he might have just grown up on his own, but somehow credit the program with that in a mysterious, undefined unproveable/unDISproveable way. It doesnt cut the mustard, doesnt prove the program works, at all. It does mean you really wish the program did actually do something afterall, however.
Oh, and other "messed up kids" (aka peers) are not therapists. You dont get therapy from hanging out with messed up people... if you did, fornits would be therapeutic!
Also, just because nobody complained about LGAT seminars doesnt mean they actually work or help or arent a detrement. Doing "nothing" is not doing "good".
And, all of this still tip-toes around the fact that only a total IDIOT going through the industry would believe that he or she could say they didnt feel they needed "wilderness" or a "program" and not have some sort of punishment or judgement as "not working the program" and have to start over. Its hardly a secret that you cant say anything bad about the program and have to at least outwardly act like its helping you and you need it.
Unless, of course, youre 'different' and so is Carlbrook and whatever company made him stomp around some stupid desert for a few months to make him "grow" and "behave" and not be "troubled" anymore. :roll:
The entire "model" of "wildernes" bunk is nonsensical, and so are programs. You havent addressed that the NIMH after reviewing these programs has not seen proof they work. Youve still not addressed how much it matches up with the BITE model of a cult, youve still not addressed the fact that he COULDNT say he didnt need it/want it/helped him without punishment or staying longer, and you havent addressed the fact that by nature LGAT seminars are nothing more than nonsense and a big emotional rollercoaster, nothing more.
Saying hes doing fine NOW afterwards does in no way prove the program is responsible for a damn thing. Saying that he repeats the mantra that he needed it and all these vague mysterious changes happened through vague mysterious methods that you cant explain shows the program "works" in that it makes people obey, but not that it offers actual therapy or help in any way.I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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On 2006-02-13 17:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Julie. What planet are YOU from?"
(http://http://i.tbs.com/v5cache/TBS/Images/Dynamic/i10/friends_joey_240x260_052820041524.jpg)
Hey, how YOU doin'?
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and here you are, two years later, still trying to justify your behavior to complete strangers. if you can't justify it in two years, maybe it's unjustifiable, mom?
you did a lousy job of raising your kid and shipped him out to be fixed nearly three years ago. and here you are still quacking about it. makes sense....not.
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Probably makes as much sense as you spending your life bashing every program. My purpose is to help other parents in the same situation we were in and to let them know that there is another side of the story than than the fictitious one told on this forum. I don't feel any need whatsoever to justify my actions. My son's success speaks for itself. By the way, I will admit to failing as a parent in many ways. However, there are a lot of absolutely wonderful parents who wind up with struggling teens.
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On 2006-02-14 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
My purpose is to help other parents in the same situation we were in and to let them know that there is another side of the story than than the fictitious one told on this forum.
Fictitious :lol: :lol:
However, there are a lot of absolutely wonderful parents who wind up with struggling teens."
Yes but only the truly gullible send them off the strangers to be 'fixed' and only the truly demented continue to blindly follow and recruit for the gurus and their sick little cults.
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My purpose is to try to reform the treatment system and improve patient care.
Believe it or not, there are kids who get sent away who have many responsible adults willing to give the kid a home---including taking on the expenses and liability.
My husband and I would have gladly taken in the young lady we know who got sent to ASR. Her parents were flaky and there was nothing wrong with the girl that consistent parents, who had some respect for her as a person, who were home with the kid instead of flying all over the country couldn't have fixed. There was very little wrong with her at all.
We were two of a number of adults who would have been willing to adopt her if the parents had agreed to relinquish custody.
Hers was an inappropriate placement.
Maybe your child really did need to be in a facility, but there are kids who get sent to facilities that don't need to be there.
Also, we live in a major metropolitan area. There are a wider range of services available here than in many other places.
As I said, we were two of a number of responsible, middle-aged adults with good livings and good homes and our own kids who would gladly have taken her in. She was one of the kids who didn't need to be in a facility but got sent to one anyway.
If your kid needed a facility, I'm sad you had that hard situation to deal with. My daughter has special needs, so I know firsthand that it's hard.
Not all the kids that get sent to facilities need to be there, and there are no safeguards to keep those kids out of facilities.
Julie
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BTW---Maybe she would have preferred to stay in the facility rather than go live with any of the particular people who were willing to offer. I doubt it, but it's always a possibility. If she had been given the choice and chosen the facility anyway, that would have been a whole different situation because it would have been a voluntary choice.
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On 2006-02-13 17:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Julie. What planet are YOU from?"
Not all the kids who get placed in facilities by a parent are your kid.
Here on Fornits we have seen many non-custodial parents who weren't unfit, they just didn't have custody, who would have much preferred to have their child come live with them rather than be stuck in a facility.
We have seen many relatives who were fit who were upset that the kid had been placed in a facility, were fit, and would have gladly taken custody rather than have the kid in a facility.
We have seen many friends who were fit who were upset that the kid had been placed in a facility and would have gladly taken custody.
There are many children who have no other options.
There are also many children who *do* have other options whose parents and the facility are holding them there against their will rather than letting them live at home with another responsible adult who wants the kid.
Julie
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Oops. Sorry for the redundancy on "were fit."
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Julie,
You sound like a great lady! I too, will someday take in troubled teenagers. I too, hope to bring about change in the RTC's. I would rather the parents do their job as the parent, instead of these schools, but let's face it some of you just suck at parenting! But, why should the kids be punished for this???? It's not fair to them. Anyway, how come you stay ANON Julie?
Miranda
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Is your position really that bad parenting is the reason teens use and sell drugs, wreck cars, ruin their education and act out sexually? If the parents are good at their job, they can ALWAYS manage the teen and turn things around?
Good luck with that!
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On 2006-02-14 14:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is your position really that bad parenting is the reason teens use and sell drugs, wreck cars, ruin their education and act out sexually? If the parents are good at their job, they can ALWAYS manage the teen and turn things around?
Good luck with that!"
I've been following this thread, and I don't see where anyone said this? Can you please quote it? Wouldn't want to think you are trying to put words in other people's mouth or anything.
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act out sexually?
I'm curious, what is 'acting out sexually'?
Do you think it's abnormal for teenagers to engage in sexual activities?
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On 2006-02-14 14:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is your position really that bad parenting is the reason teens use and sell drugs, wreck cars, ruin their education and act out sexually?
You're assuming that all drug use is bad. It's not. You're assuming it's somehow abnormal for them to be 'acting out sexually' (I agree with the other poster, what do you mean by that?), it's not.
Teenagers to a lot of stupid, reckless and dangerous shit. Fact of life and a necessary one. That's how they learn. All slamming them in some program does is stop that process and inject some false sense of security for the parents, create self-doubt and hostility in the child and $$$$$$$ for the "schools". As has been said here numerous times the only way to change someone against their will is to break them first. That's another fact. Once broken some may never be able to 'fix' it. It's a sad legacy to be left with.
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By acting out sexually I meant promiscuous and/or risky behavior. While some drug experimentation might be normal, it is illegal and can be very harmful. It can also get you kicked out of school. Selling drugs has more severe consequences. I think a lot of you on this board started from a different baseline than did my son and many of his classmates at Carlbrook. These kids were top students and, in many cases, athletes who had a lot invested in their futures. Their goal wasn't to get a GED and go flip burgers. When you start seeing complete disregard of the law, school rules and family, you start to wonder what is going on. When there is destruction of property and risk of serious injury, you realize that the heart to heart talks and local therapy sessions aren't doing the trick.
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A fundamental newsflash is in order here:
Every generation of teenagers rebel against the old ways of their ancestors
The 20's had Flappers
The 30's had Bootleggers (who were adults, mostly!)
I can't remember the 40's rebels
The 50's had Beatniks
The 60's had Hippies
The 70's had Hippies with kids and Disco Fever types... whose kids would become teenagers and find new ways of pissing off the fuddy-duddies.
It's funny how our ancestors grew into responsible adults (for the most part) in a time where there were none of these places.
Here's an interesting fact for you:
AA has a 5% success rate
Alcoholics who quit on their own have a 5% success rate.
Who's more successful?
It was some of those free-spirit parents who were beatniks and hippies, who fell in with the burguoisese of the eighties, who farmed their kid(s) off to the Program Du Jour in order to keep up appearances in the neighborhood.
"Oh my God! The neighbors will think I'm a bad parent!" So, off goes the kid, the neighbors shower the parents with "Support" (a form of Munchausen's, as far as I'm concerned, but that's another topic), and the kid learns how to "behave" in a way that's expected in a world of gated communities and cookie cutter houses.
It's not about the kids, it's about the parents.
Never in the history of any nation has an education system been so on the point of disintegration and decay as the education system in this country...We know that education in this country is as bad as it can be. We know that it is old-fashioned, irrelevant, and not meaningful.
--U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff, 1970
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I think a lot of you on this board started from a different baseline than did my son and many of his classmates at Carlbrook.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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On 2006-02-14 15:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"By acting out sexually I meant promiscuous and/or risky behavior. While some drug experimentation might be normal, it is illegal and can be very harmful. It can also get you kicked out of school. Selling drugs has more severe consequences. I think a lot of you on this board started from a different baseline than did my son and many of his classmates at Carlbrook. These kids were top students and, in many cases, athletes who had a lot invested in their futures. Their goal wasn't to get a GED and go flip burgers. When you start seeing complete disregard of the law, school rules and family, you start to wonder what is going on. When there is destruction of property and risk of serious injury, you realize that the heart to heart talks and local therapy sessions aren't doing the trick. "
Yes I agree. Now kids get arrested for smoking pot. When I got caught in sixth grade, my teacher made me join the Scouts. In eighth grade, I was given five days detention. No one ever said or thought that I was on the road to ruin. I smoked pot occasionally, got drunk a few times, and had sex. Everyone did, or at least it seemed that way. I was also an honor roll student, a varsity athelete and competed in the Junior Olympics. There was never a doubt that I was college bound. I was a kid in the 1970s.
How many times have you heard the remark by adults around the office water cooler to the effect of, 'It's a wonder any of us made it through our teens?' I have, several times. We all engaged in risky behavior.
What amazes me is that the same people who grew up in the 1970s (the let it all hang out generation) are now the zero tolerance idiots of today. What happened to these people? Did the drugs really fry their brains?
Anyway, I think your comment about a different baseline is either a gross misperception or a baseless insult.
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Anyway, I think your comment about a different baseline is either a gross misperception or a baseless insult.
Also... a huge case of arrogance, accompanied by a great deal of fear, money and ignorance. That's the recipe for a program parent. Simply cook at 420 degrees for three days in a seminar, and you have a fully baked programmie!
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I've just read through this blog for this first time. I have a child just getting ready to graduate from Carlbrook. She thanks me for sending her there. She doesn't feel brainwashed or abused. She's been accepted to several colleges and is thankful for a second chance. I guess I'm a lucky parent. I don't have to contend with whiny, snivelling thieves that not only steal money but steal the hearts out of their parents as well. When all of you become parents and you "fuck it up", I hope you'll remeber your arrogance and ignorance. Good luck.
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On 2006-02-15 08:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I've just read through this blog for this first time. I have a child just getting ready to graduate from Carlbrook. She thanks me for sending her there. She doesn't feel brainwashed or abused. She's been accepted to several colleges and is thankful for a second chance. I guess I'm a lucky parent. I don't have to contend with whiny, snivelling thieves that not only steal money but steal the hearts out of their parents as well. When all of you become parents and you "fuck it up", I hope you'll remeber your arrogance and ignorance. Good luck."
Shut up, dope. Just because YOUR kid says "thanks mom" then everyone else is ignorant and arrogant? What an absolutely stupid premise.
Also, what do you THINK your daughter, who you had incarcerated, is going to say? "Mom, this place is bullshit and did nothing for me"? Not unless she wants to stay longer (until she "works the program") or get shipped off to wilderness or worse. Lady, your kids is NEVER going to trust you again and her little lies about her appreciation of the program are just to mollify you so she doesn't get hit again.
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You need help. You are an angry person. I think maybe you can't move away from your computer. Is your computer your life? Are you addicted to blogging or do you just enjoy being a consummate asshole? Did anybody enjoy your company last night or did you eat your dinner in the light of your screen? Get a life.
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O, and by the way, my "kid" is 19 and had the option to leave.
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Fixed it for ya...
I've just read through this blog for this first time. I have a child just getting ready to graduate from Carlbrook. She hates me for sending her there. She feels brainwashed and abused. She's been denied entry to several colleges and will probably hate us forever. I guess I'm a bad parent. Thank God I don't have to contend with whiny, snivelling thieves that not only steal money but steal the hearts out of their parents as well -- my daughter isn't here! When all of you become parents and you "fuck it up", I hope you'll remeber your arrogance and ignorance. Good luck.
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I don't have to contend with whiny, snivelling thieves that not only steal money but steal the hearts out of their parents as well.
GOD DAMN - I feel sorry for your kid. I pray they makes it out of your orbit in good mental health. GEESH - what that poor kid had to deal with all these years. ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway::
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On 2006-02-15 08:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You need help. You are an angry person. I think maybe you can't move away from your computer. Is your computer your life? Are you addicted to blogging or do you just enjoy being a consummate asshole? Did anybody enjoy your company last night or did you eat your dinner in the light of your screen? Get a life. "
I guess if you are singularly unable to rebut the content of the post, just go for the crotch. This is the typical ad hominem response of the ignorant.
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On 2006-02-15 08:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"O, and by the way, my "kid" is 19 and had the option to leave."
A nineteen year old still in high school? Wow.
What "option" are you talking about? Are you talking about "Of course you can leave if you don't like it there. We'll be here for you when you get home." Or are you talking about the "If you leave, don't bother coming home" option?
Somehow, I get the feeling of the latter.
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I think possibly it's your own crotch you go for when you're getting off attacking people.
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On 2006-02-15 08:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"O, and by the way, my "kid" is 19 and had the option to leave."
Your kid is 19 and in a program? Do your kid a favor and tell them to get on with their life and save that money for college !
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DJ- there are plenty of 19 year olds in high school. Many do a post-grad year. Others who change schools repeat a soph or junior year to start the new school and have more time there.
I still don't understand what is so threatening to you about parents, or KIDS for that matter, who report that Carlbrook helped them and that they are grateful for the turn-around in their lives.
I have read enough posts on this forum to know that my kid bears no resemblance to any of you. He has better things to do than slam every program in existence and attack any parent or kid who tries to make a positive comment. And- he did NOT ever resort to saying how wonderful the Carlbrook system was just to make sure he didn't get punished or sent somewhere worse. He was very clear all along how he felt about it. He also was clear about the positives- including the relationships he formed with staff and students. He was kicked out early, so I don't think your theories apply to him.
One trick ponies.....
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On 2006-02-15 10:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think possibly it's your own crotch you go for when you're getting off attacking people. "
My, my. Do you have a persecution complex or something? I didn't attack ANYONE AT ALL - you did. You used an ad hominem fallacy, not me.
If I DO attck you, it certainly won't be in the weak fashion that you employ. I'll cut your throat in a fair debate. I don't need to carry on with the fallacies you use because my argument is sound and I can present it logically. I'm not sure about yours because you haven't tried to say anything intelligent yet (if you did try, you fell miserably short).
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On 2006-02-15 10:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DJ- there are plenty of 19 year olds in high school. Many do a post-grad year. Others who change schools repeat a soph or junior year to start the new school and have more time there.
I still don't understand what is so threatening to you about parents, or KIDS for that matter, who report that Carlbrook helped them and that they are grateful for the turn-around in their lives.
I have read enough posts on this forum to know that my kid bears no resemblance to any of you. He has better things to do than slam every program in existence and attack any parent or kid who tries to make a positive comment. And- he did NOT ever resort to saying how wonderful the Carlbrook system was just to make sure he didn't get punished or sent somewhere worse. He was very clear all along how he felt about it. He also was clear about the positives- including the relationships he formed with staff and students. He was kicked out early, so I don't think your theories apply to him.
One trick ponies....."
I've only seen ONE KID respond here that Carlbrook was beneficial to him.
On the other hand, I have seen about three parents, you included, that doggedly defend the program and your own actions ad nauseum while speaking in condescending terms to others.
Who is a "one trick pony"? You've been at it on this site for MONTHS bringing absolutely no substantive argument, but all the while advocating for a program in which your son (who obviously is better than everyone here, according to your armchair analysis) couldn't even cut it.
I think it's amusing that you paid all that money and your kid failed at Carlbrook, just like a regular school. What does that tell you? A failure is a failure, regardless of his surroundings.
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I still don't understand what is so threatening to you about parents, or KIDS for that matter, who report that Carlbrook helped them and that they are grateful for the turn-around in their lives.
Do you always say such bullshit? Insinuating being threatened to try to stir up an arguement to get in the way of the facts are you? Ad hominem attacks (even passive aggressive ones) dont make you right... and if you had bothered to read (and comprehend) what we had to say about those reports youd understand why we're worked up over it.
Specifically, that the parents are told a load of shit by the program and the children are held under duress so that if they DONT say the program helped them theyd be punished, busted back a few levels, or if theyre out of the program repremanded by parents or even sent back. ::puke::
He has better things to do than slam every program in existence and attack any parent or kid who tries to make a positive comment.
Really? why not let him speak for himself. Oh, wait, you speak for him AND want to try to say he advocates your style of not allowing criticism so that programs aren't held accountable, right?
And- he did NOT ever resort to saying how wonderful the Carlbrook system was just to make sure he didn't get punished or sent somewhere worse.
Right. Just how can you know that when he was still trapped in a little mind control gulag and you were being spoonfed what you wanted to hear? Especially when you rather obviously dont like criticism?
He was very clear all along how he felt about it. He also was clear about the positives- including the relationships he formed with staff and students. He was kicked out early, so I don't think your theories apply to him.
Really? And just how do you know he wasnt coersed? And why was he 'kicked out' anyway? And if its so good, why are you so against criticism?
One trick ponies...
Speak for yourself.There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)
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I have read enough posts on this forum to know that my kid bears no resemblance to any of you.
::bwahaha2:: ::bwahaha::
You are so over-the-top with the ad-hominems, I sometimes wonder if you are fake... a kid pretending to be a crazed program parent as satire, but it's become clear you are serious. That is why I am laughing so hard.
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He has better things to do than slam every program in existence and attack any parent or kid who tries to make a positive comment.
Really? why not let him speak for himself. Oh, wait, you speak for him AND want to try to say he advocates your style of not allowing criticism so that programs aren't held accountable, right?
That's another thing I find so funny about this thread. This crazed program parent talks as if she is speaking for her kid (I'm assuming this is a mother, so I'll use she.. just a hunch). If he loves the program, why not let him defend it? How can you defend a program you've never even been to, and even more curious, is why?
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He doesn't love the program- he hated the program. However, he does not claim it was abusive in any way. He also knows he needed to be removed from home and the community. He is mature enough to accept the consequences of his behavior.
He doesn't feel the need to defend it- he could care less.
I feel the need to help other parents separate the bullshit you guys spew from the reality of what these programs can offer.
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On 2006-02-15 11:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"He doesn't love the program- he hated the program.
So - could you possibly imagine a form of treatment out there, where the child not only 'gets better' but also does not hate the form of treatment? Do you feel this is a possible scenario, and if so, how?
However, he does not claim it was abusive in any way.
Good. You should feel lucky. Why is it so hard to imagine that abuse does take place, and your son never saw it/heard of it while there? Is this not a possibility? Since it obviously IS a possibility, why then do you feel it necessary to say things like this:
I feel the need to help other parents separate the bullshit you guys spew from the reality of what these programs can offer.
You claim to know what is bullshit and what is not bullshit, what gives you the right to claim this skill? Unless you answered 'no', it is impossible that any kid could ever be mistreated, even though your own son was not - then how can you claim to know what is bullshit and what isn't? Please explain.
He also knows he needed to be removed from home and the community.
Do you think there are better alternatives to send a troubled child than where you sent him?
He is mature enough to accept the consequences of his behavior.
Are you saying that sending him away was a form of punishment?
He doesn't feel the need to defend it- he could care less.
Ah, very telling. So why do you feel it necessary to defend it? This was about your son, afterall, wasn't it? You'd think by the amount of time you invest in defending this program, your son would have at least liked it, but instead you admit "he hated it." Where is your motivation coming from? Because it's obviously not from your son and his reports.
I feel the need to help other parents separate the bullshit you guys spew from the reality of what these programs can offer."
I've read extremely detailed accounts of the same program your son went to, and I find the statements believable and tell a different story than you tell. Please tell me again, why is it that I should believe you over the kids who went through the program?
If your son had claimed the program was abusive, how would you have reacted then?
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I haven't read any claims that Carlbrook is abusive in any way.
Our son was not sent away as a punishment. The consequences to him were that he lost a year of freedom, a year of athletics, a year of top schooling. I can't imagine a kid like my son liking any program of this type. No, there was no better alternative, except perhaps Oakley.
He was helped by the staff and by his peers in some ways, and by himself in others. His issues were anger and entitlement. There was some substance abuse but that was not the core issue. He was enmeshed in a really unhealthy relationship with a girl (by his eventual admission). He had been kicked out of school and had no good educational alternative.
A lot of the kids at Carlbrook really like the program. Many of them think the restrictiveness is close to what regular boarding schools are like. My son knew better and resented the lack of cell phones, internet, dating etc.
If there was an alternative to the steps we took, I would have found it. There wasn't.
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I have an idea! Let me go get my kid out of Carlbrook and she can sit around all day and attack people on the internet! She can demonstrate her magnificent vocabulary and feel good about herself whilst hurling insults. (Oh, DJ, you're sooo intelligent. How often do you visit quotations.com)DJ, do you have a history of torturing animals? I'll say this again, you need help. You are a miserable curmudgeon. I'm sorry I found this blog because I hate to know there are people like you that enjoy spending your days attempting to make parents feel bad about a choice they made under extreme circumstances. I haven't read enough to know if you are an adult, a parent or a kid but no matter what, you are an evil shit.
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Our son was not sent away as a punishment. The consequences to him were that he lost a year of freedom
I would say you contradicted yourself in this sentence.
I can't imagine a kid like my son liking any program of this type.
I've met a lot of teens who went through various drug-rehabs and other faciltiies who actually enjoyed the treatment, and at the same time got better. They didn't view it as punishment. These facilities were following the modern treatment model, and didn't usually call themselves 'programs'.
I am curious what type -- as you put it -- of program you consider Carlbrook?
No, there was no better alternative, except perhaps Oakley.
How can you be so sure? You didn't say, 'I don't know, there are too many options to know for sure', you said no. How can you answer with such certainty, even after your son told you 'he hated the program'?
He was helped by the staff and by his peers in some ways, and by himself in others.
Sounds applicable to everyday life, learning from those around us and ourselves. I'm curious if the staff had any particular training or specialized education requirements to work with the kids?
His issues were anger and entitlement.
I understand anger, but what is entitlement? Doesn't that problem start with the family, otherwise, how would he have been taught to feel entitled to anything, was there an outside source other than the family who spoiled him or something? I'm just not sure why I want you to punish someone for a sense of entitlement? I mean -- the real world will solve that one real fast, don't have enough money for your apartment? You get kicked out, no matter how entitled you feel. Did you really have to send him away and spend so much money to teach this simple fact of life? As far as anger, what do you think brought that on?
There was some substance abuse but that was not the core issue.
Do you feel Carlbrook provides adequete drug counseling for those with drug problems?
He was enmeshed in a really unhealthy relationship with a girl (by his eventual admission).
Well, who among us hasn't become involved with someone we wished we had never met!? :lol: After several changed phone numbers, I can relate! Do you really think sending him away is a healthy way to deal with this? Isn't it better to teach him responsibility and to be a man and upfront with the girl and break it off if he feels its uneahtlhy? Running away from problems isn't a very healthy alternative as an adult, so why teach this behavior as a teen?
He had been kicked out of school and had no good educational alternative.
Really? I was kicked out of high school too and was told similar stories. Until I did my own research and found out about a new thing called charter schools, in which I thrived. Sure, I wasn't getting into an ivy-league school graduating from there, but it was better than nothing. I went to community college and transfered to a four year school. I could get into an ivy-league for graduate studies if I wanted [and could afford it, lol]. All this without any help from my parents. So, I'm just saying, sometimes kids take longer than we had hoped. And them falling behind academically is not the end of the world, they can always work there way back up -- it's not hard at all, once you want it.
A lot of the kids at Carlbrook really like the program. Many of them think the restrictiveness is close to what regular boarding schools are like.
Good. I've been to a few boarding schools, they are pretty relaxed about communication and such, which programs take more seriously in restricting. I haven't been to Carlbrook to compare though, that is why I am asking.
My son knew better and resented the lack of cell phones, internet, dating etc.
Yeah most teenagers do. I believe the lack of social contact with girls can be a hinderence later in life though.
If there was an alternative to the steps we took, I would have found it. There wasn't.
At least none that you are aware of... right? Otherwise it suggests you found every single option out there, and still concluded Carlbrook to be the right choice... are you claiming this? How many months/years of research before placing your son did did it take to accomplish this momumental task, if you don't mind my asking?
I'm curious as to why you are so intense with your defense of this program. If there are kids out there saying otherwise, why not give them equal chance to disclose their views of the school (without calling them bullshit)? I am not here to attack, just to try and understand.
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On 2006-02-15 11:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have an idea! Let me go get my kid out of Carlbrook and she can sit around all day and attack people on the internet! She can demonstrate her magnificent vocabulary and feel good about herself whilst hurling insults. (Oh, DJ, you're sooo intelligent. How often do you visit quotations.com)DJ, do you have a history of torturing animals? I'll say this again, you need help. You are a miserable curmudgeon. I'm sorry I found this blog because I hate to know there are people like you that enjoy spending your days attempting to make parents feel bad about a choice they made under extreme circumstances. I haven't read enough to know if you are an adult, a parent or a kid but no matter what, you are an evil shit."
Gee, a little bit of an anger problem, too I see.
Just for your edification, I'm not the anonymous posters you seem to have such trouble with. I sign my posts and use my login.
Why do you feel I'm evil? What did I do to you?
I never realized there is a "quotations.com" either. I am well read, educated and quite successful. That's precisely why I have time to advocate for children. Why is that so threatening to you?
Have you realized that the only one here spewing venom and hate is YOU? You've been treated respectfully. Why do you feel as though it's OK to treat me and others so shabbily? It says a lot about you.
You seem truly unbalanced. Is this how you relate to your child, with condescension and smug arrogance? If so, I can see why you'd have problems in raising her. Who would WANT to be around someone who treats others so poorly? I wouldn't.
I happen to know a lot about programs because I spent years working in them. I hold an MSW. I think I am fully qualified to represent the "other side" of the story.
BTW, have you been drinking today? Each post is more vitriolic and disorganized than the last. Are you a stay at home Rummy, er, Mommy?
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What makes you think I'm a Mommy? I'm a father and work for a living. Who's paying your bills?
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Why not address the dozen or so outstanding questions posed about the program in question?
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There is plenty of contact with girls at Carlbrook. There is a good reason for the restriction on romantic relationships. Many of the girls have boundary issues with boys.
If a kid has a serious addiction problem, no I don't think Carlbrook is the right place. I happen to believe in 12 step programs for addiction.
I know what the alternatives were for my son. It isn't rocket science. He needed the strongest academics possible and he needed a therapeutic environment. He needed an environment whree he would be accountable for his choices.
My son didn't view Carlbrook or wilderness as punishment. He realized, after awhile, that he got himself there. It was a very logical consequence for what he was doing at home.
I chose not to kick my 16 year old out of the house. I feared for his safety and his future.
You don't have any concept of what I am talking about with his relationship with the girl.
I consider Carlbrook an emotional growth boarding school. It is an intense therapeutic environment with pretty strong academics.
I continue to defend it against claims that it is abusive. This forum attempts to make people think the kids are thrown in cells and handed bread and water through slats.
Again- my son did NOT finish the program. He convinced us that he was ready to conduct himself in a manner that would allow him to attend a normal prep school where he could achieve his academic and athletic goals.
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Okay, thanks for answering. I think I'm beggining to understand where you are coming from. Don't get me wrong -- I disagree with you on a lot of points wholeheartedly 100% -- but I do want to at least understand the thinking of parents who find these schools helpful. So, thanks for taking the time at least to address my concerns. See ya around the boards.
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On 2006-02-15 15:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What makes you think I'm a Mommy? I'm a father and work for a living. Who's paying your bills?"
Because you write like a hysterical, histrionic housewife.
I already explained that I am a professional who makes plenty of money and I spend my time how I like. I don't know how that is any of your concern, though. Does it make you mad or something to think that I have the time to do what I please? Your being a working dad hardly makes you any kind of martyr in my eyes. You're an adult with a kid. You should be working.
Why don't you just get down to the brass tacks of the issues instead of hurling insults and denigrating others? You seem either unable or unwilling to understand how these type of programs work (or don't as it were). If you could make even a single logical point we could have some meaningful dialogue, but the way you have behaved thusfar just paints a poor picture of your ability to do so.
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No one defending a program can make a logical point, in the distorted world of Dysfunction. Nice slam against housewives- that shows a lot of maturity.
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If DJ "holds an MSW" I believe he must be a marriage counselor. All of those "hysterical, hystrionic" housewives in his area have gone for therapy elsewhere. That gives him loads of extra time to spend time here.
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Ah ha- you got it! No patients, so lots of time to be dysfunctional on the internet.
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I don't think anybody is impressed with these childish insults. You call DJ immature, and then proceed to make fun of him as if this is a grammar school playground. It takes two to tango.
Do you come here to discuss programs, or what?
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Most of what DJ has to contribute consists of insults. Why shouldn't we be allowed to return the favor? Oh, wait- only the anti-program people can be insulting and clever!
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I did come here to discuss programs until I found out if you don't choose the side against the program (which ever program, they hate them all) you are insulted, called a dope, an alcoholic, a bad parent, a hystrionic housewife and whatever else these professional bloggers want to throw at you. And, obviously, there is more than one Anonymous poster. 1082 condescending postings is a full time job. Maybe this DJ guy and the other nay-sayers should become Ed. Consultants, visit the schools, and teach us the truth instead of postulating if they think they are so right. If I'm not mistaken, Carlbrook hasn't been around long enough to have enough graduates to prove anything just yet. I hope for the sake of the students that are there that you are all wrong and the parents defending the school are right. I think you guys would rather be "right" than lose this argument no matter what is happening there. What a waste of time.
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So, that's a no, you don't want to discuss this program then? Gotcha.
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Hard for me to discuss a program I'm not involved with since I'm not a student or a parent of any of the programs...yet. I'm new to this. I just came for information and saw that this is a one-sided forum with lots of bullying going on. This is the kind of negative, bullying behavior is frighteningly similar to my son's at the moment. I'll leave this site to you, the experts now, and go hire a sub-standard Ed. Consultant.
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On 2006-02-15 18:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Most of what DJ has to contribute consists of insults. Why shouldn't we be allowed to return the favor? Oh, wait- only the anti-program people can be insulting and clever!"
You are allowed to do whatever you want, this is an unmoderated forum, it's your choice what you post. Hey - what a concept! You can certainly be insulting, but I'd hardly call your insults clever.
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On 2006-02-15 19:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hard for me to discuss a program I'm not involved with since I'm not a student or a parent of any of the programs...yet. I'm new to this. I just came for information and saw that this is a one-sided forum with lots of bullying going on. This is the kind of negative, bullying behavior is frighteningly similar to my son's at the moment. I'll leave this site to you, the experts now, and go hire a sub-standard Ed. Consultant."
Maybe you should turn off your computer if it's frightening to you. This is just retarded, are you being for real. Are you an adult?
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Better watch out for those professional bloggers, they'll get ya ! :rofl:
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Hard for me to discuss a program I'm not involved with
Then what are you doing here? :wstupid:
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Not frightened, only nauseated. I'm only praying you are in your 20's and will outgrow it.
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The really frightening part is that a lot of these folks are well past their 20s. Talk about not having a life....
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On 2006-02-15 19:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The really frightening part is that a lot of these folks are well past their 20s. Talk about not having a life...."
Now youre just projecting... how sad. :wstupid:
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On 2006-02-15 19:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The really frightening part is that a lot of these folks are well past their 20s. Talk about not having a life...."
I'm hot for you, you sexy, sexy bitch. ::kiss::
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On 2006-02-15 19:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not frightened, only nauseated. I'm only praying you are in your 20's and will outgrow it."
Nope a few decades off, but it's good to know you are praying for me! Thank you!
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On 2006-02-15 11:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"He doesn't love the program- he hated the program. However, he does not claim it was abusive in any way. He also knows he needed to be removed from home and the community. He is mature enough to accept the consequences of his behavior.
He doesn't feel the need to defend it- he could care less.
I feel the need to help other parents separate the bullshit you guys spew from the reality of what these programs can offer."
I have a feeling you're in for a reality check in a few years.
Julie
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1082 condescending postings is a full time job.
This tired old argument again? How many hours per day does it take you to write a message?
All who doubted or denied would be lost. To live a moral and honest life -- to keep your contracts, to take care of wife and child -- to make a happy home -- to be a good citizen, a patriot, a just and thoughtful man, was simply a respectable way of going to hell.
--
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On 2006-02-15 17:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If DJ "holds an MSW" I believe he must be a marriage counselor. All of those "hysterical, hystrionic" housewives in his area have gone for therapy elsewhere. That gives him loads of extra time to spend time here."
You sure spend a lot of time here talking about nothing, don't you?
I thought you had a JOB, but you seem to just hang around fornits doing nothing but bitching and moaning about other people. You DO sound like a drunken housewife. Maybe that's why your kid is so fucked up - because of YOU.
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Doesn't anyone here find it interesting that the "people" who argue about how great carlbrook is always have the same smarmy tone when questioned further?
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Does anyone find it interesting that the people who slam all programs and won't even consider that a particular program might be beneficial resort to insults and sexual slurs when they get backed into a corner?
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On 2006-02-16 06:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does anyone find it interesting that the people who slam all programs and won't even consider that a particular program might be beneficial resort to insults and sexual slurs when they get backed into a corner?"
Some do that, not all and you know it. There are quite a few of us who post regularly and carry on converasations with adversaries without the childishness. Seek those out and respond to those only and there really won't be that much a problem getting a dialog going.
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On 2006-02-16 06:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does anyone find it interesting that the people who slam all programs and won't even consider that a particular program might be beneficial resort to insults and sexual slurs when they get backed into a corner?"
I personally have never seen anyone on my side of the argument get backed into a corner. It's quite the contrary. All clinical research supports the notion that EG and TBS are ineffective at best and horribly damaging at worst.
There is not one single solitary shred of clinical research to show anything other than inefficacy or harm.
Due to this fact, it is the program supporters that are always and continuously backed into a logical corner because eveything they say is based solely on second-hand anecdotal evidence. This is no ground from which to challenge well established facts of science.
This unsupportable position leads these folks to lash out at their detractors with viscious insults and base affrontery, as their position is utterly bereft of any scientific gravity whatsoever.
That's the nut of it.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-02-16 07:14 ]
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"eveything they say is based solely on second-hand anecdotal evidence"
This is where you continue to be blind. You have heard from students who have attended the school and parents who are reporting objectively. The parents are not blindly defending every aspect of this school. Yet, you continue to hold the position that no one can benefit from Carlbrook and any parent who sends a child there is a terrible parent and has been brain-washed into believing in the program. YOU are the one without first-hand information.
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No, we cite clinical research in addition to our own personal stories. You don't because you can't. Period.
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When a parent has tried everything else and there is some evidence (as minute as it may be) that it works for "some", one hopes (and believes) it will be their child coming out on the other side able to cope with adversity better. It's a hard call to make when one is faced with weighing certain death and extreme discomfort for their own child. And, until you've been there, been the parent, not the child, you cannot possibly know how it feels to make that call. Now, all of you, go ahead and attack me the way you attack the others. I'm used to it.
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On 2006-02-16 07:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"When a parent has tried everything else and there is some evidence (as minute as it may be) that it works for "some", one hopes (and believes) it will be their child coming out on the other side able to cope with adversity better.
Against overwhelming evidence that it doesn't help and in many cases causes more harm? No, unacceptable.
It's a hard call to make when one is faced with weighing certain death and extreme discomfort for their own child. And, until you've been there, been the parent, not the child, you cannot possibly know how it feels to make that call. Now, all of you, go ahead and attack me the way you attack the others. I'm used to it."
I've been both so I do know. You've bought into the "certain death" myth. It's a complete falsehood and scare tactic.
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"Doesn't help in many", but it helps in SOME. And, you don't know what "certain death" meant for our child. I will judge myself by the outcome when this nightmare is over (if ever.) Also my child will judge my decision but I will not be judged by you. To our family it is worth the risk. But, we fear, he may end up like you.
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Again, I came for useful information about specific programs and I'm not getting it. If anyone has FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of Carlbrook,not the results of biased studies, specifically that he/she would like to share at the risk of being abused further, would you mind posting it?
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On 2006-02-16 07:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Doesn't help in many", but it helps in SOME.
You misread. I said it doesn't help AND many times does more harm.
And, you don't know what "certain death" meant for our child.
No I don't but I've also been the parent of a teen that I was scared to death I would see in a morgue so I think I've got some idea of where you're coming from.
I will judge myself by the outcome when this nightmare is over (if ever.) Also my child will judge my decision but I will not be judged by you. To our family it is worth the risk.
You dont' know that yet. The 'lifting of the fog' and subsequent fallout from them realizing what was done to them takes years to manifest sometimes.
But, we fear, he may end up like you."
You've got good reason to fear that.
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On 2006-02-16 08:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Again, I came for useful information about specific programs and I'm not getting it. If anyone has FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of Carlbrook,not the results of biased studies, specifically that he/she would like to share at the risk of being abused further, would you mind posting it?"
Why bother with silly things like studies and evidence when you can solicit the precise answer you're looking for. :roll:
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Are you really saying that NOBODY has been helped? I know 100's of kids that have been through programs that helped them and they are not resentful towards their parents nor the programs. I also know lots like you that it did not work for. This gets more narrow by the moment. You should go travel to some high schools and use your energy teaching kids not to engage in the behaviors that may prompt their parents to make the decision to send them away in the first place. Because, god forbid, they may end up at CARLBROOK or SWIFT RIVER instead of jail or the graveyard.
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YOU are the one without first-hand information.
I am willing to accept the accumulated research and study of mental health professionals. I am not willing to accept second-hand anectdotal evidence from a parent.
I DO accept the first-hand accounts of the children who were sent there. They say it was harmful in all but ONE case I have ever seen.
Furthermore, being a clinician, I can tell you that the incontrovertable fact of the matter is that these programs don't work and any "success" you may have can be attributed solely to your child's desire to get out of the facility by whatever means necessary - usually acquiescence and uniform compliance to the program rules, "faking it" in therapy, and telling the parents that without the program "I'd be dead or in jail."
Call it what you like. There is a long history of psychology that shows what works and what doesn't. You simply do not want scientific evidence. You want somebody to tell you to send your kid to Carlbrook and that it's a great, helpful, healing place.
"By all means, send your kid to Carlbrook. If you don't, he'll die, get incarcerated or go insane. You MUST do this FOR YOUR SON."
There, I said it. You can ship him out now without guilt or remorse. Have at it.
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Damnit! I am BEGGING for first hand information and not your continuous psycho-babble! You've chased away anybody with any positive information. I know the risks I want to hear just somebody out there tell me another side to this. If it doesn't exist, so be it. I haven't sent him to the gulag yet. I'm trying to get information everywhere...even at this moronic site! I'd hate to be the kid from Carlbrook who suceeded and tried to post his story. You guys would rip him apart and probably question his sexuality. Forget I even asked. Wait, a kid that has done well in the program probably isn't spending his days proving his sucess to you. Never mind, I'll just put what I've learned from this site into the CON side of the paper.
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But that's exactly the point. You're asking for positive experiences only because that's what you want to read about and believe. We've stated personal experience AND clinical studies. What don't you get about clinical studies being far more accurate and reliable than surveys and solicitation for specific types of responses that you'd like to believe?
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On 2006-02-16 08:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Damnit! I am BEGGING for first hand information and not your continuous psycho-babble! You've chased away anybody with any positive information. I know the risks I want to hear just somebody out there tell me another side to this. If it doesn't exist, so be it. I haven't sent him to the gulag yet. I'm trying to get information everywhere...even at this moronic site! I'd hate to be the kid from Carlbrook who suceeded and tried to post his story. You guys would rip him apart and probably question his sexuality. Forget I even asked. Wait, a kid that has done well in the program probably isn't spending his days proving his sucess to you. Never mind, I'll just put what I've learned from this site into the CON side of the paper."
Wow. This is me -> ::bangin:: <- and this is you.
If you want someone to tell you it's OK to send your kid away when there is approprite treatment based in your community, you're not going to get it.
Instead of being so vitriolic, why not tell us a bit of history about your son? Maybe if you inform us a little better we can can recommend some other options. However, if all you do is react hysterically and never share with us what's at the root of your problem, how are we to help you in any form?
What is your son's psychological diagnosis?
What types of behaviors does he engage in that worry you?
Is he learning disabled?
Using drugs or alcohol heavily?
Tell us what's going on with your kid and you will certainly get constructive advice.
BTW, if you think I speak in "psychobabble," wait until you get into the Orwellian double-speak of the program.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-02-16 09:08 ]
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If you can stand to read this whole thread, you will see posts from some students who TRIED to post their experiences at Carlbrook. Read the Rico Moreno letter that is linked.
I am a parent of a former Carlbrook kid. I have posted and posted my impressions, but as you can see, none of the positives are acknowledged.
The fact is, Carlbrook isn't perfect, but it is the best of the bunch. It has the best staff (academically, administratively and therapeutically), a wonderful campus and offers the best combination of what you need for your kid.
Your kid will not be abused and MAY come out a strong, young adult. Post on strugglingteens.com for more info.
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On 2006-02-16 08:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Damnit! I am BEGGING for first hand information and not your continuous psycho-babble! You've chased away anybody with any positive information. I know the risks I want to hear just somebody out there tell me another side to this. If it doesn't exist, so be it. I haven't sent him to the gulag yet. I'm trying to get information everywhere...even at this moronic site! I'd hate to be the kid from Carlbrook who suceeded and tried to post his story. You guys would rip him apart and probably question his sexuality. Forget I even asked. Wait, a kid that has done well in the program probably isn't spending his days proving his sucess to you. Never mind, I'll just put what I've learned from this site into the CON side of the paper."
What did you honestly expect at a 'SURVIVOR' site? Can't you get any 'positive' feedback for your 'paper' at ST? No advocates have PM'd you here?
I personally think you have a covert agenda, but what the hell. Perhaps some feebile minded program advocate will come along and oblige, then maybe not. Program advocates have a strong need to control things, and they can't do that here. They also tend to have a very low tolerance for free speech and take things overly personally.
Your request is about as rational as going to a rape survivor site and asking what benefits they had gained from their experience- and no doubt, there actually would be a FEW who choose to see 'only the positive' in everything. Doesn't mean the end justifies the means.
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On 2006-02-16 09:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you can stand to read this whole thread, you will see posts from some students who TRIED to post their experiences at Carlbrook. Read the Rico Moreno letter that is linked.
I am a parent of a former Carlbrook kid. I have posted and posted my impressions, but as you can see, none of the positives are acknowledged.
They're acknowledged, just not agreed with.
The fact is, Carlbrook isn't perfect, but it is the best of the bunch. It has the best staff (academically, administratively and therapeutically), a wonderful campus and offers the best combination of what you need for your kid.
Your kid will not be abused and MAY come out a strong, young adult.
You're kid may quite possibly be abused either physically or psychologically adn there is no evidence AT ALL that he or she would come out better for their experience.
post on strugglingteens.com for more info."
Sure. Post and look for info on a site run by a company that makes its living off of desperate, gullible parents. THAT is SURE to be objective. :roll: We can see why they would be biased FOR the programs....what would our motivation be for being against them? We gain nothing from putting this information out there. They earn a very nice living at keeping parents scared and having those parents scare up more clients for them by way of referrals for which the parents are then compensated.
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On 2006-02-16 09:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you can stand to read this whole thread, you will see posts from some students who TRIED to post their experiences at Carlbrook. Read the Rico Moreno letter that is linked.
I am a parent of a former Carlbrook kid. I have posted and posted my impressions, but as you can see, none of the positives are acknowledged.
The fact is, Carlbrook isn't perfect, but it is the best of the bunch. It has the best staff (academically, administratively and therapeutically), a wonderful campus and offers the best combination of what you need for your kid.
Your kid will not be abused and MAY come out a strong, young adult. Post on strugglingteens.com for more info."
"TRIED" to post, my ass. You/they DID post. Your distress is that you want those posts to be "acknowledged".
What the hell would that look like?
Reality check.... do you know where you are?
Do you know the Serenity Prayer.
Get over it, and stop the incessant whining becauce you can't 'force' your will.
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On 2006-02-16 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
You're kid may quite possibly be abused either physically or psychologically adn there is no evidence AT ALL that he or she would come out better for their experience.
Ooops. Your kid, not you're. :silly:
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On 2006-02-16 09:02:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
BTW, if you think I speak in "psychobabble," wait until you get into the Orwellian double-speak of the program.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Funny. This person was adamant and obstreperous trying to get the response they wanted to hear, but when asked some meaningful questions about the actual problems of the kid, they disappeared.
How do they expect advice in the absence of a problem description?
I'll answer that myself: They were not seeking unbiased information, they were seeking someone to validate their already-made decision to ship their kid out.
I've seen this happen time and again. They come on here, they insult everyone with low-brow insults while proclaiming themselves to be the normal and knowledgeable ones, when really they are weak-minded fools and piss-poor parents looking for tacit approval from total strangers (anyone!) of jailing their kid.
:sighs: Some things never change.
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Didn't disappear, just working for a living and taking my first break. Thank you Deborah. I appreciate you sticking your neck out. I think I've spent enough time at this site. I may go find some actual practicing psychologists and psychiatrists that can give me the information I'm looking for, good and bad. I've NEVER said I was knowledgeable, only researching. Why would I trust ANY of you with my son's story? I just wanted to know about the PROGRAM, I wasn't looking for permission from you to send him away.
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Agreed- posting your kid's story on here would be the stupidest thing imaginable. That would give too much new material for these brilliant minds to tear apart. The response to ANY of our kids' stories is that we are terrible parents and are just warehousing our kids because we hate them and can't handle them ourselves. We are drug addicts and sexually promiscuous ourselves and are total losers as people and parents. All our kids did was smoke pot once or twice and maybe skip school. This is why we sent them away and wasted our $50K a year. We didn't want to parent them. We should have tried TALKING to them or maybe a local therapist. Without even trying anything else, we took the advice of a crook Educational Consultant who was getting kickbacks from the program we selected. Also, we checked with other parents about the program, but they were all getting kickbacks, too.
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Correction, thank you anonymous supporter, not Deborah. And, I had NO IDEA this was a survivor site. I just googled Carlbrook and this is what I got after I read their own website. Persecuted, pitiful, people, you actually make me want to prove you wrong and I have been against the TBS thing from the beginning.
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On 2006-02-16 12:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Didn't disappear, just working for a living and taking my first break. Thank you Deborah. I appreciate you sticking your neck out. I think I've spent enough time at this site. I may go find some actual practicing psychologists and psychiatrists that can give me the information I'm looking for, good and bad. I've NEVER said I was knowledgeable, only researching. Why would I trust ANY of you with my son's story? I just wanted to know about the PROGRAM, I wasn't looking for permission from you to send him away. "
You're a fucking idiot. Straight up. You're such a mess it's wonder you were able to raise a kid at all, even in the fucked up way you did. Mess job.
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We are drug addicts and sexually promiscuous ourselves and are total losers as people and parents. All our kids did was smoke pot once or twice and maybe skip school. This is why we sent them away and wasted our $50K a year. We didn't want to parent them. We should have tried TALKING to them or maybe a local therapist. Without even trying anything else, we took the advice of a crook Educational Consultant who was getting kickbacks from the program we selected. Also, we checked with other parents about the program, but they were all getting kickbacks, too.
Finally a parent admits the truth! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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On 2006-02-16 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
We are drug addicts and sexually promiscuous ourselves and are total losers as people and parents. All our kids did was smoke pot once or twice and maybe skip school. This is why we sent them away and wasted our $50K a year. We didn't want to parent them. We should have tried TALKING to them or maybe a local therapist. Without even trying anything else, we took the advice of a crook Educational Consultant who was getting kickbacks from the program we selected. Also, we checked with other parents about the program, but they were all getting kickbacks, too.
Finally a parent admits the truth! :smokin:
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Please explain to me how gathering information is idiotic? Why are you attacking me for wanting to know your side and their side, too? I'm attempting to listen to all sides but you guys are just wearing me out. It's not worth the trouble to argue with you. If you want to get your message out, I suggest you do it in a rational, non-confrontational manner and maybe you would get heard by people like me that are on the fence and struggling with a decision.
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Get a clue. :roll:
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What kind of an answer is that? Are you a 7th grade girl, because you remind me so much of one. Now I know why people leave this forum exasperated because you are a bunch of bullies.
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I'm trying to get information everywhere...even at this moronic site!
Why should anyone be respectful and help you with anything if you bash this entire site like that? Some people spend a lot of time here informing people just like you, and just as pushy as you, on their own free time, unpaid, for years. This site has an unmeasurable wealth of information that can be found nowhere else. You are all too typical of the program parents we see come through here, demanding information while bashing us all at the same time. If you really think this site is "moronic" then get the fuck out of here.
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[quoteAre you a 7th grade girl, because you remind me so much of one.[/quote]
Wow, if you are this immature maybe you should send your kid away. At least they will be away from you.
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Are you a 7th grade girl, because you remind me so much of one.
Wow, if you are this immature maybe you should send your kid away. At least they will be away from you.
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On 2006-02-16 13:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What kind of an answer is that? Are you a 7th grade girl, because you remind me so much of one. Now I know why people leave this forum exasperated because you are a bunch of bullies. "
I'm reluctant to believe you are really even a parent. Your insults are so child-like, I'm guessing you are some young kid just trolling to get attention. Sure looks that way.
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I got bashed on my first polite request for information. You must have thought I posted earlier. You are no better than the promoters, you just want to ridicule people for asking for information they obviously know nothing about, and like me, don't EVEN pretend to. Do you tell all people looking for information to get the fuck out because that is all I've seen here?
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Nope, I tell rude people that, like you.
So, get the fuck out already, huh? :lol:
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On 2006-02-16 12:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please explain to me how gathering information is idiotic? Why are you attacking me for wanting to know your side and their side, too? I'm attempting to listen to all sides but you guys are just wearing me out. It's not worth the trouble to argue with you. If you want to get your message out, I suggest you do it in a rational, non-confrontational manner and maybe you would get heard by people like me that are on the fence and struggling with a decision. "
What part of this is rude?
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Don't bother. They are angry people who have a set agenda and can not accept any differing viewpoints. The immaturity and meanness really undermines whatever their real message is.
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You're right. This forum is like a moth to the flame and I have been burned. Thanks for sticking up for the unsuspecting newbies.
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Your right, we are a bunch of pussy ass parents who coil at the first sign of critism. Back into isolation and cult forums for me.
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On 2006-02-16 13:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Don't bother. They are angry people who have a set agenda and can not accept any differing viewpoints. The immaturity and meanness really undermines whatever their real message is."
I know, those program parents can be horrible. I'm glad we all agree on this.
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On 2006-02-16 13:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I got bashed on my first polite request for information. You must have thought I posted earlier. You are no better than the promoters, you just want to ridicule people for asking for information they obviously know nothing about, and like me, don't EVEN pretend to. Do you tell all people looking for information to get the fuck out because that is all I've seen here?"
Get a username. It's the multitude of faceless, nameless, blind program supporters who get bashed. At least with a username you won't get bashed indescriminently.
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I miss Carlbrook man, damn..Ant one rememeer me can hit me up at [email protected]
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DieselJeans- when did you leave and what group were you in?
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I have a 17 year old son attending Carlbrook. It has been an excellent experience for him and for us. He has been there since July 05. We too were considering Swift River and Oakley and our consultant and our son's counsellor at 2nd Nature recommended Carlbrook. It is similar to other Therapeutic Boarding School but I would say the twist is the focus on the honour code that really makes the kids part of the solution as a community as a whole. As our consultant and wilderness counsellor said - "the kids just seem very happy there". It is inevitably a hard place to be but it is full of love along with the rules and consequences. They have good recreaytion available but these provileges can be removed for individual behaviour or for the community as a whole. The academics are interesting and excellent. They focus on accepting kids that can succeed at school and who they believe are good at heart and have supportive families that believe their kid goes their to be equipped, not to be "cured". As they say - they ?help our child remember that they are not the sum total of all their mistakes, and that they deep down inside are a beautiful person that has lost their way and started to believe their ?lie?". Good Luck. I would recomnend an Educational Consultant - George Posner.
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Hi, I'm glad your son is doing well at Carlbrook. I have to warn you. This is a miserable blog full of ex-TBS kids (and adults) that will very shortly attack you in every way imaginable. I also have a child having a very favororable experience at Carlbrook but beware of what's coming. This is a TBS Survivor site and expect more abuse than your kid ever gave you. btw I have a child there that will be graduating soon and then going to college. It's been good for our whole family. Good luck.
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This is a miserable blog full of ex-TBS kids (and adults) that will very shortly attack you in every way imaginable.
I only see you making attacks.
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On 2006-02-17 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is a miserable blog full of ex-TBS kids (and adults) that will very shortly attack you in every way imaginable.
I only see you making attacks. "
Ditto. It's this fool doing some "preemptive bashing." Nice job, programmie. Everyone feels sorry for you. You're truly a martyr. Really.
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If any unsuspecting parent or happy ex-TBS student doubts the single focus of this forum and the lengths the posters will go to in order to be nasty and inappropriate, just read through some of the threads, particularly the Karenindallas thread under Brat Camp.
This is NOT a place for intelligent debate or sharing of ideas and information.
I will save you time and summarize the information on this forum:
1. All emotional growth programs are abusive and can not do any possible good for a teen.
2. Any parent who sends a teen to wilderness or an RTC or TBS is a terrible parent who hates their kid and all kids.
3. The regulars on this forum are experts on emotional growth programs and know everything there is to know about the staff and the treatment methods are every program. None of them are good.
4. If a former student attempts to defend a program or explain how it helped him or her, it is because he/she has been brainwashed by the program. In a few years the person will figure it out and remember how they were abused at the program.
5. Anyone who claims to have gone to a good college after the program or to have received a valuable high school degree is lying.
6. Any parent who recommends a program to another parent is doing so because they get a kick-back from the program.
7. All educational consultants are in it for the money and get kick-backs from the programs they recommend.
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On 2006-02-17 15:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If any unsuspecting parent or happy ex-TBS student doubts the single focus of this forum and the lengths the posters will go to in order to be nasty and inappropriate, just read through some of the threads, particularly the Karenindallas thread under Brat Camp.
This is NOT a place for intelligent debate or sharing of ideas and information.
I will save you time and summarize the information on this forum:
1. All emotional growth programs are abusive and can not do any possible good for a teen.
2. Any parent who sends a teen to wilderness or an RTC or TBS is a terrible parent who hates their kid and all kids.
3. The regulars on this forum are experts on emotional growth programs and know everything there is to know about the staff and the treatment methods are every program. None of them are good.
4. If a former student attempts to defend a program or explain how it helped him or her, it is because he/she has been brainwashed by the program. In a few years the person will figure it out and remember how they were abused at the program.
5. Anyone who claims to have gone to a good college after the program or to have received a valuable high school degree is lying.
6. Any parent who recommends a program to another parent is doing so because they get a kick-back from the program.
7. All educational consultants are in it for the money and get kick-backs from the programs they recommend."
Whine, whine, whine, baby. ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby::
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1. All emotional growth programs are abusive and can not do any possible good for a teen.
2. Any parent who sends a teen to wilderness or an RTC or TBS is a terrible parent who hates their kid and all kids.
3. The regulars on this forum are experts on emotional growth programs and know everything there is to know about the staff and the treatment methods are every program. None of them are good.
4. If a former student attempts to defend a program or explain how it helped him or her, it is because he/she has been brainwashed by the program. In a few years the person will figure it out and remember how they were abused at the program.
5. Anyone who claims to have gone to a good college after the program or to have received a valuable high school degree is lying.
6. Any parent who recommends a program to another parent is doing so because they get a kick-back from the program.
7. All educational consultants are in it for the money and get kick-backs from the programs they recommend.
You speak the truth!
Thanks for typing out all the anti-program talking points, it will save me a lot of time. Now I can just reference this post for newbies. :smile:
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I know why these parents are so angry, I was ripped off just like they were. My son is now slightly older, and some has time has passed since his time in Carlbrook when he was seventeen. This parent supporting Carlbrook could have been me a short while ago, I believed it all too. We aren't evil people, believe that or not, we were just taken in by corrupt people wanting to make a quick buck off the backs of scared and ignorant parents. My son is now doing well in college, but only after he received proper treatment and therapy for his time at Carlbrook. He tell us now we wasted our money and it was a complete waste of time, and he had a horrible time. We still don't talk about it much, hopefully one day he can tell me everything. When I bring the subject up he gets angry so I let it go right now. I hope this can get better over the years. I apologize daily for my mistakes and hope he knows that I mean it. I found this forum by searching on Google and it is a great resource from what I can see. I've met other program parents and the posts here don't surprise me. We aren't all "tricked" into sending our child away with good intentions. Some parents just want to get rid of the child, it was sad to see that is the case sometimes. But this was not the case with my son. If you care about your child find an alternative to this place, it will only bring you problems in the future. Not to mention the college funds we wasted, now my husband had to go back to work and we all regret our ill fated decision. Once we got into family therapy and let him take responsibility for his life, well we really had no choice since he turned eighteen, things changed for the better. Once we stopped trying to control him and mold him into our ideal child things started to change for the better. Sending him away did nothing. If you have any questions for me or want to know more about my own experience please email me at [email protected] Thank you for your time and for the opportunity for me to say this.
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What I think would be helpful to other parents is to describe how the program was sold to you. What you expected based on that, and what you received.
I particularly appreciate this "wisdom born of pain":
Once we got into family therapy and let him take responsibility for his life, well we really had no choice since he turned eighteen, things changed for the better. Once we stopped trying to control him and mold him into our ideal child things started to change for the better.
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On 2006-02-17 16:29:00, Deborah wrote:
I particularly appreciate this "wisdom born of pain":
Eeeeeek!! Did that phrase just send chills up any other Straight survivors backs? :scared: :scared:
Deb I know there's no way you could have known but that line is from a song that Straight changed the lyrics to and made us sing over and over and over again about how 'grateful' we were for Straight.
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These negative people are, for the most part, NOT program parents. They are people with no connection whatsoever to the programs which they bash.
Ms. Gaulder, if you are for real, which I doubt, it sounds like your son did not benefit at all from Carlbrook. That is the case with a number of kids in any program. There is no way the managing staff at Carlbrook is out to make a quick buck. They work night and day for relatively modest salaries. Your son "had a horrible time". Did you think you were sending him to golf camp?
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On 2006-02-17 16:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"These negative people are, for the most part, NOT program parents. They are people with no connection whatsoever to the programs which they bash.
Some of us are former inmates of these places with kids of our own so we can speak to both sides of the issue. Some are parents of teens who were sent away and the parents realized what a grave mistake they made. Some are both of those things plus having done years of research on the subject.
How do you come to have any knowledge of these places?
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On 2006-02-17 16:29:00, Deborah wrote:
Once we stopped trying to control him and mold him into our ideal child things started to change for the better.
I had exactly the same luck w/ my eldest.
To the anon who thinks we don't know what we're talking about, we were closer than you ever were. You just wrote the checks and went to a couple of watered down versions of what you paid to have done to your kid. How in the world does it happen that we all, over generations and the entire geographical range of the continental US, can so well understand each other if your cult is just nothing a'tall like the rest?
[Entish] is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to.
--Tree Beard
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particularly the Karenindallas thread under Brat Camp.
Ahhh...memories. That is a GREAT thread. :nworthy: Thanks for bringing it up. I'm going to bump it!
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On 2006-02-17 16:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-17 16:29:00, Deborah wrote:
I particularly appreciate this "wisdom born of pain":
Eeeeeek!! Did that phrase just send chills up any other Straight survivors backs? :scared: :scared:
Deb I know there's no way you could have known but that line is from a song that Straight changed the lyrics to and made us sing over and over and over again about how 'grateful' we were for Straight."
So sorry to 'restimulate' bad memories. I truly did not know.
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Anonymous poster who doubts my existence: I just looked in the mirror, and yes, I am real. No, I did not think I was sending him to "golf camp", I thought I was sending him to an environment that fosters "intellectual, social, and personal development" as Carlbrook told me. You might have viewed it as a punishment I did not. My mistake. I came here to share my own experience and I find your rudeness and dismissiveness rather ironic considering your warnings earlier. Nobody else has been rude to me other than you. I suggest you take a look at your own actions before condemning everyone else. -Joe
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On 2006-02-17 16:54:00, Deborah wrote:
"
On 2006-02-17 16:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-17 16:29:00, Deborah wrote:
I particularly appreciate this "wisdom born of pain":
Eeeeeek!! Did that phrase just send chills up any other Straight survivors backs? :scared: :scared:
Deb I know there's no way you could have known but that line is from a song that Straight changed the lyrics to and made us sing over and over and over again about how 'grateful' we were for Straight."
So sorry to 'restimulate' bad memories. I truly did not know.
"
No reason to be sorry. :smile:
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I wrote the warning. I didn't write the rest. There is more than one anonymous poster here. I'll call myself A.P.1 from now on. I think there are two or three current Carlbrook parents lurking.
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1. All emotional growth programs are abusive and can not do any possible good for a teen.
2. Any parent who sends a teen to wilderness or an RTC or TBS is a terrible parent who hates their kid and all kids.
3. The regulars on this forum are experts on emotional growth programs and know everything there is to know about the staff and the treatment methods are every program. None of them are good.
4. If a former student attempts to defend a program or explain how it helped him or her, it is because he/she has been brainwashed by the program. In a few years the person will figure it out and remember how they were abused at the program.
5. Anyone who claims to have gone to a good college after the program or to have received a valuable high school degree is lying.
6. Any parent who recommends a program to another parent is doing so because they get a kick-back from the program.
7. All educational consultants are in it for the money and get kick-backs from the programs they recommend.
::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod::
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On 2006-02-17 16:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
This parent supporting Carlbrook could have been me a short while ago, I believed it all too. We aren't evil people, believe that or not, we were just taken in by corrupt people wanting to make a quick buck off the backs of scared and ignorant parents. My son is now doing well in college, but only after he received proper treatment and therapy for his time at Carlbrook. He tell us now we wasted our money and it was a complete waste of time, and he had a horrible time. We still don't talk about it much, hopefully one day he can tell me everything. When I bring the subject up he gets angry so I let it go right now. I hope this can get better over the years. I apologize daily for my mistakes and hope he knows that I mean it.
My dad was the same way. Just to clarify, I never sent my daughter off anywhere. Not cause I'm super enlightened, but because I had been sent off so I knew better. My dad was so into it at one point that he actually called a cop and made something up to get me arrested because he was sure I needed to finish the Program. Never mind that he had to make something up because I wasn't actually breaking laws or causing trouble.
I don't recall if he ever used the words "I'm sorry" but it never mattered anyway. We talked just one time about it. He let me know that he knew he had been took. From that moment on he never again tried to fix or control me. That's all that mattered. My dad and I were tight when I was a kid. This weirdness happened. Then we were pretty close for the rest of his life. Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
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Joe- that email address doesn't work.
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On 2006-02-17 18:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Joe- that email address doesn't work."
Works for me. :???:
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On 2006-02-17 17:27:00, Eudora wrote:
My dad was so into it at one point that he actually called a cop and made something up to get me arrested because he was sure I needed to finish the Program. Never mind that he had to make something up because I wasn't actually breaking laws or causing trouble."
It is almost unbelievable how convinced parents can become these programs are the absolute last chance and they will go to any effort -- from ignoring their own paternalistic instincts, to emptying their bank accounts, to calling the cops and lying -- to support their false beliefs. Seems they like to troll this board all day long doing the same thing, after the fact. No wonder they are so intense with their defense of these programs!!
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On 2006-02-17 18:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-17 17:27:00, Eudora wrote:
My dad was so into it at one point that he actually called a cop and made something up to get me arrested because he was sure I needed to finish the Program. Never mind that he had to make something up because I wasn't actually breaking laws or causing trouble."
It is almost unbelievable how convinced parents can become these programs are the absolute last chance and they will go to any effort -- from ignoring their own paternalistic instincts, to emptying their bank accounts, to calling the cops and lying -- to support their false beliefs. Seems they like to troll this board all day long doing the same thing, after the fact. No wonder they are so intense with their defense of these programs!!
"
Yep. The last measure before they realize their kid is growing up and have to let them finish doing so :roll: Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"
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On 2006-02-17 16:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anonymous poster who doubts my existence: I just looked in the mirror, and yes, I am real. No, I did not think I was sending him to "golf camp", I thought I was sending him to an environment that fosters "intellectual, social, and personal development" as Carlbrook told me. You might have viewed it as a punishment I did not. My mistake. I came here to share my own experience and I find your rudeness and dismissiveness rather ironic considering your warnings earlier. Nobody else has been rude to me other than you. I suggest you take a look at your own actions before condemning everyone else. -Joe"
Hey, Joe. Thank you for sharing your experience with Carlbrook on the board. What you are saying does not surprise me in the least.
Your observation about this anon Carlbrook supporter is spot on. S/he came on here and began to rudely insult everyone in a "preemptive" fashion. This is typical of control-freak types that can't stand to have alternative viewpoints expressed.
That being said, people like Her/him support the program blindly. They have taken a leap of faith and have discarded the scientific method entirely. As I have explained before, these type of programs are not the "latest and greatest," but rather are the dredged up, cobbled-together pieces of behavioral science and psychotherapy that the professional mental health society had debunked and cast aside decades ago. Carlbrook is doing nothing more than rehashing the obvious mistakes of treatment modalities long dead and buried by scientific method and clinical study. The facts are that Carlbrook's methods have been debunked, proven ineffective and shown to cause damage to the developing mind for DECADES.
To reiterate: There is NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY CLINICAL STUDY THAT SUPPORTS THIS TYPE OF TREATMENT. Yet there are several dozens of clinical studies that show this methodology causes DAMAGE such as PTSD (just to name one).
So, what we are dealing with here, Joe, is people who refuse to look at proven fact so that they may retreat into "good feelings" doled out by the folks that fleeced them out of their money and hurt their children. These are the same type of people who believe in "Intelligent Design." They will cast aside proven fact and embrace insane concepts, so long as they can feel "right" about it in the end.
Welcome to the board and please don't be discouraged by crackpots and flamers. Any intelligent, fact and reality based assessment of the precioous program will be met with extreme hostility and ad hominem attacks. It comes with the territory.
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Can you tell me what you have learned about Island View? David Smyth - on of the co-founders of Coral Reef Academy - has a past connection to Island View - Thx
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On 2006-02-18 09:33:00, concernedparent wrote:
"Can you tell me what you have learned about Island View? David Smyth - on of the co-founders of Coral Reef Academy - has a past connection to Island View - Thx"
Please continue to seek information from the Coral Reef thread. A bunch of us looking to see what we can find for you.
This thread is dedicated to Carlbrook.
Thanks.
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On 2006-02-17 13:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi, I'm glad your son is doing well at Carlbrook. I have to warn you. This is a miserable blog full of ex-TBS kids (and adults) that will very shortly attack you in every way imaginable. I also have a child having a very favororable experience at Carlbrook but beware of what's coming. This is a TBS Survivor site and expect more abuse than your kid ever gave you. btw I have a child there that will be graduating soon and then going to college. It's been good for our whole family. Good luck."
If any unsuspecting parent or happy ex-TBS student doubts the single focus of this forum and the lengths the posters will go to in order to be nasty and inappropriate, just read through some of the threads, particularly the Karenindallas thread under Brat Camp.
This is NOT a place for intelligent debate or sharing of ideas and information.
I will save you time and summarize the information on this forum:
1. All emotional growth programs are abusive and can not do any possible good for a teen.
2. Any parent who sends a teen to wilderness or an RTC or TBS is a terrible parent who hates their kid and all kids.
3. The regulars on this forum are experts on emotional growth programs and know everything there is to know about the staff and the treatment methods are every program. None of them are good.
4. If a former student attempts to defend a program or explain how it helped him or her, it is because he/she has been brainwashed by the program. In a few years the person will figure it out and remember how they were abused at the program.
5. Anyone who claims to have gone to a good college after the program or to have received a valuable high school degree is lying.
6. Any parent who recommends a program to another parent is doing so because they get a kick-back from the program.
7. All educational consultants are in it for the money and get kick-backs from the programs they recommend.
nice fallacy, there.
Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.
Good try, though. ::kiss::
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Sorry, this post lost
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Carlbrook sucks. :wave:
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On 2006-02-17 16:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"These negative people are, for the most part, NOT program parents. They are people with no connection whatsoever to the programs which they bash.
Ms. Gaulder, if you are for real, which I doubt, it sounds like your son did not benefit at all from Carlbrook. That is the case with a number of kids in any program. There is no way the managing staff at Carlbrook is out to make a quick buck. They work night and day for relatively modest salaries. Your son "had a horrible time". Did you think you were sending him to golf camp? "
Why is it SO unbelievable to these program FREAKS that most parents and students are not satisfied with their stay at Carlbrook? We've seen countless posts here saying this, and only one or two saying it is good. So who would you believe?
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On 2006-02-17 16:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I know why these parents are so angry, I was ripped off just like they were. My son is now slightly older, and some has time has passed since his time in Carlbrook when he was seventeen. This parent supporting Carlbrook could have been me a short while ago, I believed it all too. We aren't evil people, believe that or not, we were just taken in by corrupt people wanting to make a quick buck off the backs of scared and ignorant parents. My son is now doing well in college, but only after he received proper treatment and therapy for his time at Carlbrook. He tell us now we wasted our money and it was a complete waste of time, and he had a horrible time. We still don't talk about it much, hopefully one day he can tell me everything. When I bring the subject up he gets angry so I let it go right now. I hope this can get better over the years. I apologize daily for my mistakes and hope he knows that I mean it. I found this forum by searching on Google and it is a great resource from what I can see. I've met other program parents and the posts here don't surprise me. We aren't all "tricked" into sending our child away with good intentions. Some parents just want to get rid of the child, it was sad to see that is the case sometimes. But this was not the case with my son. If you care about your child find an alternative to this place, it will only bring you problems in the future. Not to mention the college funds we wasted, now my husband had to go back to work and we all regret our ill fated decision. Once we got into family therapy and let him take responsibility for his life, well we really had no choice since he turned eighteen, things changed for the better. Once we stopped trying to control him and mold him into our ideal child things started to change for the better. Sending him away did nothing. If you have any questions for me or want to know more about my own experience please email me at [email protected] Thank you for your time and for the opportunity for me to say this."
Thank you for sharing your view.
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On 2006-02-17 16:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"These negative people are, for the most part, NOT program parents. They are people with no connection whatsoever to the programs which they bash.
Ms. Gaulder, if you are for real, which I doubt, it sounds like your son did not benefit at all from Carlbrook. That is the case with a number of kids in any program. There is no way the managing staff at Carlbrook is out to make a quick buck. They work night and day for relatively modest salaries. Your son "had a horrible time". Did you think you were sending him to golf camp? "
Karen, is that you? :wave:
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I don't have much time for websites of this sort so if i do not respond immediately to whatever rebuttal you may send me, it's because I already know what your response will be and coming back to this site is very low on my priority list. I also refrain from revealing my identity because I fear what individuals with so much misdirected anger and hate could do to muddy my name. I am a Carlbrook staff and I do believe very strongly in the work most of our students do everyday. This constant fear of brainwashings is so conspiratorial. What is the purpose of these "brainwashings" you speak so much of? What do we gain from them? You cling to whatever supports your previously held notions and you disregard all that may open your mind to some degree. I write this to dysfunction junction, but this is really for all of the destructionists on this website. I understand your cynicism but I hope you can see how seeking only that which supports your initial premise is fallacious and keeps you blinded from the truth. I really don't even want to argue with you on the kind of place I believe Carlbrook is because my words will fall upon deaf ears. I do encourage you to do research outside of this website and weigh both the good and the bad of what you hear. If Carlbrook really is an evil place, as many on this site paint it to be, by all means expose it. Hell, if I notice something going on I believe to be detrimental to a child or taking advantage of a family, my voice will be heard. Carlbrook is not perfect but we are always looking for ways to become better at what we do. I have never witnessed an act of abuse, verbally or physically in all of my time at Carlbrook. I also want to take this moment to speak to all of the graduates who visit this site. You all are beautiful and I am glad you take some of what you have learned at Carlbrook to the larger world. This is a sad website made up of many angry and confused kids. I also feel for the parents that are making a very difficult decision about where to send their child and are probably wondering how things ever got this bad. I encourage you to explore a variety of sources on the internet. You can find many other sources based much more on fact and not so much on polluted opinion.
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:wstupid: :wave: :lol:
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On 2006-02-25 05:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-17 16:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"These negative people are, for the most part, NOT program parents. They are people with no connection whatsoever to the programs which they bash.
Ms. Gaulder, if you are for real, which I doubt, it sounds like your son did not benefit at all from Carlbrook. That is the case with a number of kids in any program. There is no way the managing staff at Carlbrook is out to make a quick buck. They work night and day for relatively modest salaries. Your son "had a horrible time". Did you think you were sending him to golf camp? "
Karen, is that you? ::kiss::
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Thanks, Carlbrook staffer. Appreciate your input. I share your hope that most parents will look elsewhere for advice and information. The bashers on this forum have no idea what Carlbrook is about.
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My son attended for 9 months, but did not finish the program. He left in May 2004 and finished high school at a regular prep boarding school. I had some major disputes with Carlbrook while he was there. He did benefit in some ways, and wilderness actually did him a lot of good (he did two stints in wilderness). I thought some of the Carlbrook staff was excellent and some were terrible.
Karen
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On 2006-02-25 05:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-17 16:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"These negative people are, for the most part, NOT program parents. They are people with no connection whatsoever to the programs which they bash.
Ms. Gaulder, if you are for real, which I doubt, it sounds like your son did not benefit at all from Carlbrook. That is the case with a number of kids in any program. There is no way the managing staff at Carlbrook is out to make a quick buck. They work night and day for relatively modest salaries. Your son "had a horrible time". Did you think you were sending him to golf camp? "
Karen, is that you? ::fuckoff::
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On 2006-02-26 08:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thanks, Carlbrook staffer. Appreciate your input. I share your hope that most parents will look elsewhere for advice and information. The bashers on this forum have no idea what Carlbrook is about."
On 2006-02-17 13:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi, I'm glad your son is doing well at Carlbrook. I have to warn you. This is a miserable blog full of ex-TBS kids (and adults) that will very shortly attack you in every way imaginable. I also have a child having a very favororable experience at Carlbrook but beware of what's coming. This is a TBS Survivor site and expect more abuse than your kid ever gave you. btw I have a child there that will be graduating soon and then going to college. It's been good for our whole family. Good luck."
If any unsuspecting parent or happy ex-TBS student doubts the single focus of this forum and the lengths the posters will go to in order to be nasty and inappropriate, just read through some of the threads, particularly the Karenindallas thread under Brat Camp.
This is NOT a place for intelligent debate or sharing of ideas and information.
I will save you time and summarize the information on this forum:
1. All emotional growth programs are abusive and can not do any possible good for a teen.
2. Any parent who sends a teen to wilderness or an RTC or TBS is a terrible parent who hates their kid and all kids.
3. The regulars on this forum are experts on emotional growth programs and know everything there is to know about the staff and the treatment methods are every program. None of them are good.
4. If a former student attempts to defend a program or explain how it helped him or her, it is because he/she has been brainwashed by the program. In a few years the person will figure it out and remember how they were abused at the program.
5. Anyone who claims to have gone to a good college after the program or to have received a valuable high school degree is lying.
6. Any parent who recommends a program to another parent is doing so because they get a kick-back from the program.
7. All educational consultants are in it for the money and get kick-backs from the programs they recommend.
Thanks, Carlbrook staffer. Appreciate your input. I share your hope that most parents will look elsewhere for advice and information. The bashers on this forum have no idea what Carlbrook is about
Aren't you the little detective --- you hate-filled forniscating BASTARD! Are you PROUD of yourself? Carlbrook was okay but I REALLY am here to keep a TRUTHCHECK on all you ankle-biting, glue eating SENSATIONALISTS and liars. I DON'T believe one bad thing anyone says here, and I KNOW the truth --- Eudora wrote a computer program to PRETEND to be kids who were abused --- you all say the SAME repeated stories. You AREN'T real --- YOU are a COMPUTER program. If you wave at me like THAT again --- I'll SUE you. Don't think I will --- TRY ME!!!!!
The only bashing I see is coming from program parents! Ya'll are insane! KareninDallas, seek help!
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On 2006-02-26 08:41:00, KarenInDallas wrote:
"I thought some of the Carlbrook staff was excellent and some were terrible. "
Karen, do you think the staffer that just posted was one of the excellent ones or one of the terrible ones?
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I think the staffer who posted was probably one of the good ones. They get rid of the bad ones fairly quickly, except for Bender.
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On 2006-02-26 09:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-26 08:41:00, KarenInDallas wrote:
"I thought some of the Carlbrook staff was excellent and some were terrible. "
Karen, do you think the staffer that just posted was one of the excellent ones or one of the terrible ones? "
They didn't post a name so how would I know!? It's about a 50/50 chance --- and that's good enough for my kid.
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karenindallas is one of your very own!
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ok...it appears that a faculty member has come out of woodwork and made themselves known. I can appreciate their desire for anonymity and their request for their name not to be "muddied".
I have just a couple questions for starters and hope that we can have some intelligent discourse without resorting to the "noise" that I read on this forum from both the "pro" and "anti" camps on this forum.
1. Can I safely assume that if the poster is not Tim Brace, that he is privy to what is said here concerning Carlbrook?
2. Would Tim be willing to field questions directly on this forum for the purpose of comparing and contrasting how Carlbrook is run now vs. the way that Rocky Mountain Academy was run while he was the director there?
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I hope Tim will be busy with his work at Carlbrook. I sincerely hope he doesn't take the time to answer questions on this site. I hope he doesn't even take the time to read through the postings. Tim is accessible to all Carlbrook parents, and prospective parents, and has taken my calls on every occasion I've desired to speak with him. My child thinks he is great. Now, let the games begin. Rip us all apart.
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I had to laugh at that post requesting Tim to engage in discussions here on this forum. The last poster nailed it- if someone wants to talk to Tim, go ahead and call him. He is much too professional and attendant to his role at Carlbrook to stoop to the level of this forum.
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Of course Tim wouldn't post here. Why does he have to when you do it for him?
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On 2006-02-27 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I hope Tim will be busy with his work at Carlbrook. I sincerely hope he doesn't take the time to answer questions on this site. I hope he doesn't even take the time to read through the postings. Tim is accessible to all Carlbrook parents, and prospective parents, and has taken my calls on every occasion I've desired to speak with him. My child thinks he is great. Now, let the games begin. Rip us all apart. "
I called Tim this morning --- he told me he would review this site --- but would not respond. He also told me that no counsleors have posted --- so "his" post is most likely false. While my kid was at Carlbrook I spoke with Tim many times --- he is a fraud --- don't believe anything he says. Remember --- when I said some staff were good and others terrible? He was one of the terrible ones!
Now go ahead and rip me apart you stupid forniscating bastards.
Karen
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On 2006-02-27 09:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I had to laugh at that post requesting Tim to engage in discussions here on this forum. The last poster nailed it- if someone wants to talk to Tim, go ahead and call him. He is much too professional and attendant to his role at Carlbrook to stoop to the level of this forum. "
Are you suggesting --- I am not professional and attendant --- because I hang out on this forum everyday? Someone has to clean up the mess your stupid teen forniscating bastards lying cesspool of lies! These teens here are the scum of the earth! You damn forniscating bastards --- beter be careful --- or I will sue you!
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He is much too professional and attendant to his role at Carlbrook to stoop to the level of this forum.
:rofl:
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On 2006-02-27 10:28:00, KarenInDallas wrote:
"
On 2006-02-27 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I hope Tim will be busy with his work at Carlbrook. I sincerely hope he doesn't take the time to answer questions on this site. I hope he doesn't even take the time to read through the postings. Tim is accessible to all Carlbrook parents, and prospective parents, and has taken my calls on every occasion I've desired to speak with him. My child thinks he is great. Now, let the games begin. Rip us all apart. "
I called Tim this morning --- he told me he would review this site --- but would not respond. He also told me that no counsleors have posted --- so "his" post is most likely false. While my kid was at Carlbrook I spoke with Tim many times --- he is a fraud --- don't believe anything he says. Remember --- when I said some staff were good and others terrible? He was one of the terrible ones!
Now go ahead and rip me apart you stupid forniscating bastards.
Karen "
Get caught again in more lies, Karen? Is that why you are posting again signed in? Figures. Can't say I missed you, but your overbearing child abusive stance is somewhat frightening to be honest. You are all-too-typical program parent, so I suppose that is good for other parents to see. How is the lawyering business going, any luck suing any kids like you seem to always want to do? Thanks for stopping by Karen, in all your woderful Carlbrook parent glory! :wave:
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The posts attributed to KareninDallas are made by Dysfunction Junction, Nihil or some other brilliant regular from this site. Just so any new readers/posters are aware of this and don't take them seriously.
Seems pretty immature to me to represent yourself as someone else, but I guess you think it is funny.
My son thought very highly of Tim Brace and many of the other Carlbrook staff members. I have nothing bad to say about Tim.
Enjoy yourselves.
Karen (the REAL Karen)
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Nice TRY anon --- but the regulars around here KNOW me and my typing style --- and it's obvious you are a Carlbrook staffer trying to save face. Like I said --- there were GOOD and BAD parts of the program --- Tim was most definitely a BAD part. Tim --- why not sign who you really are --- you just told me on the phone NOT to post what I did --- no wonder you are trying to cover up NOW. If you are going to lie --- at least try to be better at it.
Karen
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I thought that was another Karen who used all the dashes. I think you are mixing up two parent-anons.
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Karen, suck it. :wave:
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On 2006-02-27 11:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen, suck it. :wave: "
How mature of you --- typical forniscator right here --- get a life loser. Did your parents pull you from your program too early --- seems like it.
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On 2006-02-27 10:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The posts attributed to KareninDallas are made by Dysfunction Junction, Nihil or some other brilliant regular from this site. Just so any new readers/posters are aware of this and don't take them seriously.
Seems pretty immature to me to represent yourself as someone else, but I guess you think it is funny.
My son thought very highly of Tim Brace and many of the other Carlbrook staff members. I have nothing bad to say about Tim.
Enjoy yourselves.
Karen (the REAL Karen)"
Not me. I sign in and always use my username.
So, fuck off, Karen. Stop trolling this board.
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Nah, she should stick around. She does such a great job of making her own side look obnoxious.
The truth will out.
Julie
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"So, fuck off, Karen. Stop trolling this board."
Julie, it's good those of you on your side of the discussion present yourselves so well.
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"So, fuck off, Karen. Stop trolling this board."
This is a TYPICAL forniscator right here --- you are all PATHETIC and LOSERS with no lives! This ENTIRE forum is posted by only a HANDFUL of clever psychopaths who use their PROGRAMING skills to make it LOOK LIKE a lot of people post here. Don't you people get it?!?
Why is there anons --- pretending to be me?!
I am no fool --- in fact --- I am a lawyer --- but aparently everyone else is stupid --- and believes this crap.
You all need to be sent back to the program. ::fuckoff::
Assholes.
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Wow...look at all the noise that comes up when I ask to have Tim compare and contrast how things were at RMA with the way they are now at Carlbrook. Funny how everybody seems to rush to his defense...yet he wasn't even being attacked. I wasn't asking for peoples personal opinions of Tim, yet as a former student of his I'm surprised that he can't answer some questions about programs that he is running vs. the programs that he ran.
All I can suspect is that Tim desires to turn tail and run from the RMA aftermath...sweep it under the carpet and pretend that it never existed. Perhaps that is why he doesn't list RMA as one of his "credentials".
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It seems there is a big change at Carlbrook - going to be more like at RTU than a prep school. Seems they have lost control and the inmates have started running the asylum. They have started this program called "In School Suspension" where the kids are isolated and not allowed to attend class, but their classwork is brought to them - they are supervised by a Security Staff not Advisors. Sounds like that like all these programs they have a 3 - 4 year honeymoon and then the shit hits the fan.
Alot of kids have been sent home or back to the Wilderness - also seems to be an increase in the attempted escapes.
LGA works for some but not for all - hope they all have made lots of money!
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Doesn't sound that different to me from when my kid was there. If they had a major rules violation, they lost the privilege of going to class and had to sit and write emotional growth assignments. One of my big disagreements with the school concerned withholding academics as a punishment. They wouldn't let me son take his finals one quarter, because they knew academics were very important to him. The academic head wasn't competent enough to successfully manage make-up exams in any manner which made sense.
There were always a number of kids who went back to wilderness, including my son. At any of these places there will be kids removed from the program for various reasons. As for escapees- two kids from my son's group ran within 2 months of being there. Both went on to successfully complete the program.
Nothing new here!
Karen
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Alot of kids have been sent home or back to the Wilderness - also seems to be an increase in the attempted escapes.
There is no such thing as an "attempted" escape at Carlbrook. You either run or you don't. It's not a lock down.
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Well, I guess an attempted escape is if you don't make it very far!
K.
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I only know of one kid that ran in the last 10 months. I guess you are right. I found it challenging to even find a Diet Coke on the road to Carlbrook! We had great success with the program and I'm sorry about the negativity here. I do understand that not every kid should be there. Mine actually liked it and is doing well now. I've been a teacher for years and years and know that even in the very best of programs (therapeutic and mainstream) that there will be a few kids that nobody can reach, especially when they've been allowed enough rope to hang themselves previously. Would my kid have done OK without Carlbrook? Maybe, but we decided to give it a try and unless I'm totally naive, I think we made a good choice. We were lucky in that we didn't have to resort to escort services, etc. Will our kid screw up again? I hope not but I won't be blaming Carlbrook if it happens.
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I was thinking about sending my kid to Carlbrook, I'm glad I found this websight first.
Thank you all for telling your stories. I had not been able to hear any truth from other parents, the school would not give me a reference. Our medical insurance would refuse to pay and that they said it wasnt helpful so we started research.
Now our son is in a good place with good people. Watch out for Carlrbook, lipstick on a pig wont help your kid.
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On 2006-02-26 08:41:00, KarenInDallas wrote:
"My son attended for 9 months, but did not finish the program. He left in May 2004 and finished high school at a regular prep boarding school. I had some major disputes with Carlbrook while he was there. He did benefit in some ways, and wilderness actually did him a lot of good (he did two stints in wilderness). I thought some of the Carlbrook staff was excellent and some were terrible.
Karen "
Thank you for talking to me and telling me about your time with the school.
Without your email support I might have given in to the pressure and made a mistake that my family wouldnt forgive financially especially. Now medical insurance is paying for his treatment at a good place. Thank you so much karen. Im glad you can turn your failure around and help others.
Jan Z
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Jan- I don't know who you are, but I don't regard our decision to send our son to Carlbrook as a failure at all. Our son's situation was unique in some ways, and these other circumstances are what led to him not finishing the program. Many kids have benefited greatly from completing the program. My son is very resistant to the therapeutic process, and Carlbrook did the best they could with him. His therapists there were outstanding and he still keeps in touch with several staff members.
No place is perfect and different families have different circumstances. I think Carlbrook is a strong program and I would never discourage anyone from placing their teen there if it appeared to be the right fit.
Karen
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Jan- you should note that NONE of the posts on this forum posted by "KareninDallas" are made by Karen the parent whose son went to Carlbrook.
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On 2006-03-03 09:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
There is no such thing as an "attempted" escape at Carlbrook. You either run or you don't. It's not a lock down."
:rofl:
That is the same thing that they said to us at RMA. We all got the "there are no fences here...no bars on the window...you can walk down the road any time you want". That sure would make for a loooonnnngggggg walk.
First...at RMA we were in the middle of nowhere...where would somebody run? Hitchhiking was also illegal in Bonner Ferry at the time (so we were told) not to mention that as soon as a child ran...the local law enforcement agencies were all called.
Looking at the area that Carlbrook is in now, it appears that it also is pretty much in the middle of nowhere. The town's educational and unemployment demographics aren't very impressive either in my opinion...but that's a different subject altogether.
Basically...what I'm getting at here is that if a child is placed in the middle of nowhere far far from home...especially in an environment(school) that practices "attack" therapy...it can feel like prison even though there are no fences/razor wire/bars etc.
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Jan,
I hope your son continues to do well. I would have rather had my child at home. We tried every local and semi-local option we had. Our kid finally made the choice after we looked at everything available. Maybe it's different for others. I had a kid willing to go and make it work. And, it was the longest 15 months of my life. Ted
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On 2006-03-05 16:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Jan- you should note that NONE of the posts on this forum posted by "KareninDallas" are made by Karen the parent whose son went to Carlbrook."
Maybe their kid went there too and was unsatisfied. Unless you think "Karen" is the only authority on Carlbrook.
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Calling all Carlbrook experts... whaddya make of this post?
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#178186 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14295&forum=9&start=0#178186)
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"Maybe their kid went there too and was unsatisfied. Unless you think "Karen" is the only authority on Carlbrook."
The point is that someone set up a user name on this forum as "KareninDallas" and represents themselves to be KareninDallas from strugglingteens.com
However, the posts are a bunch of crap and not made by any parent or any sane person, for that matter.
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:???: :???: How would you know that, unless you are this "Karen" person? If so why dont you sign in to rid the confusion? It isnt that hard...
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#178186 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14295&forum=9&start=0#178186)
It seems there is a big change at Carlbrook - going to be more like at RTU than a prep school. Seems they have lost control and the inmates have started running the asylum. They have started this program called "In School Suspension" where the kids are isolated and not allowed to attend class, but their classwork is brought to them - they are supervised by a Security Staff not Advisors. Sounds like that like all these programs they have a 3 - 4 year honeymoon and then the shit hits the fan.
Alot of kids have been sent home or back to the Wilderness - also seems to be an increase in the attempted escapes.
LGA works for some but not for all - hope they all have made lots of money!
Hmmm..
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I am Karen and when I post I usually sign my name- Karen. Unless I forget! I have NOT registered on this site nor do I intend to.
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No, I am Karen. Stop lying!
Karen
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On 2006-03-05 17:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Calling all Carlbrook experts... whaddya make of this post?
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#178186 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14295&forum=9&start=0#178186)
"
I'm no expert but it's hard to determine if all of that is even accurate. However, last time I checked, even our local public school had in-school suspension. I've been away from Carlbrook for awhile but haven't heard anything to make me think that anything has changed. When kids misbehave one disciplinary measure used by many is isolation. Did you ever get put in time-out as a child? Ted
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I like how you start off saying you don't know anything then start with the apologist arguments. :lol: Priceless!
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I'm no expert but it's hard to determine if all of that is even accurate. However, last time I checked, even our local public school had in-school suspension. I've been away from Carlbrook for awhile but haven't heard anything to make me think that anything has changed. When kids misbehave one disciplinary measure used by many is isolation. Did you ever get put in time-out as a child? Ted
Thanks but I was asking for people who knew. I can guess just the same as you.
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You asked "what do you make of this post?" or something like that. He answered you.
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Unless you become a student there you will never know. I would never pose as an "expert" the way the the prolific posters around here do. I had a kid there, he/she did great, he/she has a healthy family life, he/she has a productive year + of college, he/she is a kind person. Carlbrook taught this kid something really important- to walk away from trouble. Ted
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On 2006-03-05 18:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Unless you become a student there you will never know. I would never pose as an "expert" the way the the prolific posters around here do. I had a kid there, he/she did great, he/she has a healthy family life, he/she has a productive year + of college, he/she is a kind person. Carlbrook taught this kid something really important- to walk away from trouble. Ted"
You refer to the "prolific posters around here" - kind of a strange argument to make for someone who just got here 48 hours ago. :idea:
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Thats because Karen has MPD. :rofl:
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I'm reading through the threads. It's far more entertaining than the Oscars which happen to be on and will be on for hours and hours. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to see that there are about 5 people that "live" here. But, it's obvious that some of you don't enjoy newcomers. I'll remind you that misery loves company and when the Academy Awards are over you won't hear from me again. I hated High School and I'm feeling like I'm right back in the middle of it. Ted
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On 2006-03-05 19:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm reading through the threads. It's far more entertaining than the Oscars which happen to be on and will be on for hours and hours. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to see that there are about 5 people that "live" here. But, it's obvious that some of you don't enjoy newcomers. I'll remind you that misery loves company and when the Academy Awards are over you won't hear from me again. I hated High School and I'm feeling like I'm right back in the middle of it. Ted"
Sorry to see ya go, hope you enjoyed your 48 hours at fornits. I'm not watching the awards show- 60 minutes actually- not into the hollywood thing. Enjoy your show and your remaining time here!! btw - Im not miserable, why would you think that?
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I hated High School and I'm feeling like I'm right back in the middle of it.
Yeah sometimes fornits reminds me of the program. I fucking hate fornits.. I also hate that I cant seem to stop coming here... :cry2:
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Im not miserable, why would you think that?"
[/quote]
I am happy to hear that. Did you call your mother or father today and tell them that. It's important.
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On 2006-03-05 19:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Im not miserable, why would you think that?"
I am happy to hear that. Did you call your mother or father today and tell them that. It's important."
[/quote]
Its 2006, we email baby! :lol:
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Well, then email them. I really like hearing my kid's voice. I missed it while he/she was away.
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Why would the program not offer the kid a phone call home every night? I guess I just don't understand this, what is the reason behind the lack of communication? Most parents say their kid opens up while at the program, but they only get 20 mins a week... it seems counter-productive.
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I think a phone call a day would be counter-productive to the therapeutic process. The family dynamics are usually a huge part of the problem, and both the parents and the kid need to re-learn ways to communicate and engage constructively.
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Breaking the pattern of manipulation is important. Most kids that end up at Carlbrook are very bright and have learned manipulation techniques fueled by high IQ's. Daily phone calls can become bitch sessions. By the time my kid finished Carlbrook he/she was allowed (had earned the privelege) to call me one day, her mother one day, and his/her sister one day. So, really, he/she was talking to one of us every other day. That was a pleasant time actually. We all looked forward to the calls and never had time for too much bitching. Ted
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Perhaps if they weren't escorted there they wouldn't 'bitch' so much.
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Oh, please. Spare me.
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It's a legitimate complaint. Escorting is not safe at all.
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Please compare and contrast the workshops at Carlbrook vs the workshops at RMA. I felt that the workshops at RMA were very traumatic experiences.
I would prefer not to hear generic "nothing in life is easy" answers. I would prefer to hear details regarding the specific exercises that are part of the workshops.
To make things more open and focused I would like to hear more about whatever workshop would be similar to our "Truth Propheet". I assume that that would be the first workshop's "topic" at Carlbrook also. Basically...a play by play account of the whole propheet/workshop would be nice.
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I haven't been in the workshops. I did a mini version for parents of the first one. It was about living your "lie" or your "truth". When my kid wants to give me all the details I'll see if he/she will be willing to share them with you. Again, it is his/her story to tell, not mine. It appears that you may not agree with this model so it's doubtful that anyone is going to share something that's important to them and to their self-esteem if they feel emotionally threatened. I know nothing about RMA. Ted
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More disturbing information about Carlbrook surfaces... As if having Tim Brace running the show weren't enough, this was posted on another thread:
I have been reading the feedback from all the posters about the pro's and con's of Carlbrook.
The foundation every program is built on, is the credibility of the owners and employees of the program, regardless of the type of program. The first person on the list of key people for Carlbrook is Dr. Glenn Bender. He states on his resume he has 25 years experience as an educator and employee of a number of programs and schools.
Dr. Bender seems to have forgotten his place of employment just before Carlbrook. From 1999 until he started at Carlbrook, Dr. Bender was the Director of Admissions and Marketing at Alldredge Academy in Davis,West Virginia. In Feb 2001 a child died at Alldredge Academy. One year later, Alldredge Academy pleaded guilty to "Child neglect resulting in death". Dr Bender was the primary recruiter of that childs family. He assured the family that Alldredge Academy was a safe and appropriate placement for a child with depression yet when the child died as a result of depression, Dr. Bender seemed to disappear. I can understand why Dr. Bender would not want to list an employer with a criminal conviction on his resume, considering he was a major player in the crime. In every field, weather it is academics or business, falsifying a resume is a serious breach of ethics usually resulting in dismissal. Did the other principals of Carlbrook not know or not care? In either event this creates a credibility issue and calls into question the honesty of the entire program.
IMO this doesn't "call into question" the credibility of Carlbrook, they already have none. This just proves what everyone else has been saying. It just takes a little time for all of the REAL information to come out. It took eleven years for HLA's past to catch up and they're going through a REMARKABLE unravelling that will more than likely end up with charges of fraud and financial/ethical impropriety.
For everyone who was mistreated at Carlbrook, keep speaking out until the truth becomes self-evident.
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I haven't heard ANYONE say they were mistreated at Carlbrook. Good try, DJ, but there is simply no evidence of that.
Tim Brace does not run the show- Grant Price does.
The presence of Glenn Bender on campus, while a waste of resources, means absolutely nothing as far as whether the program is sound and kids benefit from it.
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Well, it goes to show that they hire the trash thrown out by other facilities. That can't be good.
Anyway...
The presence of Glenn Bender on campus, while a waste of resources, means absolutely nothing as far as whether the program is sound and kids benefit from it.
Can you show any studies that DO show the program works? I'm interested in ANY clinical documentation that exists about the efficacy of Carlbrook's "program." Surely you can quote some or provide references to them, right?
If not, are we left to just taking your word for it that it works?
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Breaking the pattern of manipulation is important. Most kids that end up at Carlbrook are very bright and have learned manipulation techniques fueled by high IQ's
Okay, I'm not naive enough to think that teens aren't manipulative, (most people are manipulative to SOME degree. It's part of being a human being.) but that mentality about "breaking manipulation" is a constant thread throughout behavior mod programs. ESPECIALLY if the kid tries to complain about something in the program. The staff will say "If you ever get any letter or phone calls from the kid saying that something is wrong at the program, they are just manipulating you and lying to you to try to get out."
Whenever a kid complains about ANYTHING in a program they are automatically considered being manipulative. You know, kids have died because of this mentality.
It suits the behavior mod industry just fine to label any kid who has a problem with their program manipulative. It automatically invalidates any true complaint someone might have. And unfortunately, the parents just fall right into that trap.
Word of advice, if the school gives you the old manipulation line, that is a SERIOUS red flag.
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Sorry, Ted, I forgot to warn you not to use the M-word (manipulation) on this forum. It brings forth the ponies' one trick.
Karen
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I don't know what you mean by "works". The program can be beneficial for a struggling teen and the teen's family. Spending that kind of money and sending your kid to a program is a last resort. There is no guarantee that at the end of 14 months (or in our case, 9) you will receive a Stepford-kid. There are some kids who flounder once they are back out in the real world. They return to drug use, get arrested or quit school. However, there is a good chance that your kid will figure out what went wrong at home and what needs to be corrected- both within him or her and with the family dynamics- for life to go a little better. The kid is going to school, not using drugs or drinking, not doing dangerous things with cars, not being physically or verbally abusive to family members and getting therapy. The police aren't on the doorstep.
The staff is dedicated and caring. (Again, with one exception in our case) The facility is nice. The food is good, although the girls got pretty fat while my son was there.
I'm sorry, DJ, but I really don't get what your problem is with this place.
Karen
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So what are you saying, that it doesn't happen? Shit, it happens on a disturbing regularity. Take a look at this list http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/therapydeaths.htm (http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/therapydeaths.htm)
I would venture to say that most of the deaths that have been attributed to 'restraint' and cardiac problems/heat stroke etc. have the "malingering" factor in there. When you read the accounts of what happened more often than not you see the staff saying that they thought the kid was faking. Hell in the recent boot camp death of ?Martin Anderson (http://http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13885&forum=9&78) they shoved ammonia capsules up his nose and beat him while he was completely limp and unconscious because of that very reason. They thought he was faking to get out of doing the exercises.
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There have been no deaths or injuries due to restraint or anything else at Carlbrook. While my son was there he and a couple of other kids had some athletic injuries.
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However, there is a good chance that your kid will figure out what went wrong at home and what needs to be corrected
What do you mean by "a good chance"? Are we to rely on the "good word" of one parent that this facility "works"?
Please reference any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE you have to support this claim. Please cite the study that was performed to assess this "chance." Thanks.
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It's emotional growth, not a science experiment. I know my kid, and many others, came out better than he went in. Do most? I don't know. It sure is worth giving it a shot, though.
I am not a proponent of all programs. I would not have considered very many of them. If my kid had serious substance abuse issues, I would have taken a different route. There are a few quality programs that are worth trying if a family is at the end of the rope. I think I want you to recognize the existence of these programs and stop lumping everything into the category of "your kid will by abused and will die" category.
Karen
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I'm sorry, DJ, but I really don't get what your problem is with this place.
Karen
There's a lot that you don't "get" about a lot of things. I'm not here to educate you about anything, so whether or not you understand me is irrelevent.
Just cite the relevent clinical research about Carlbrook and I'll talk directly to its findings. Until then, I have to deal with you, as you seem to be the only "source" citing a success rate.
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I never cited a success rate. A number of kids are doing very well at college. A couple more have just been admitted (post Carlbrook) into some of the most selective colleges in the country. A couple more are in rehab. One that I know of just committed a felony. We are dealing with teenagers here. Kids mature at different rates. Some enter the program at 16 or 17, some at 15 (Carlbrook rarely will accept a student younger than 15). Different things happen post-Carlbrook. There are different family dynamics involved. A lot depends on how willing the parents are to understand THEIR OWN role in the teen's problems. There are too many variables for your absurd request for scientific proof.
Karen
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There are too many variables for your absurd request for scientific proof.
Really? Wow, I guess you know absolutlely nothing about mental health care or scientific study in general.
Of course a valid study can be done. They're done all the time and yield valid, quantitative data.
The question is why doesn't Carlbrook do follow-up testing or analysis? If they were a "professional" outfit, it would be an integral part of their business plan to address efficacy.
In the absence of a plan to address efficacy, I can only assume that Carlbrook doesn't want to have their effectiveness put to the test. Usually that's because the seller already knows the product won't stand up to scrutiny. Carlbrook knows that they don't help the majority (or even a small plurality) of kids, they just don't want everyone else to know.
Now, Karen, I know you claim to be an educated woman, but what you are saying is patently ridiculous and is industry quack-speak for invalidating legitimate criticisms.
These types of statements are used by all program supporters. They throw out strawmen, red-herrings, ad hominem fallacies and post hoc fallacies relentlessly to avoid the real issues.
What dear Karen MEANT to say (but somehow can't bring herself to do it) is that she sent her kid to an experimental treatment center whose practices have no basis in accepted mental health treatment and that keeps no statistics on the results of their "treatment."
I wouldn't send my kid to a place so bankrupt of professionalism.
So, I guess all you parents out there should just trust Karen's word for it rather than look for empirical evidence - you won't find any of that anyway...
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I never cited a success rate. A number of kids are doing very well at college. A couple more have just been admitted (post Carlbrook) into some of the most selective colleges in the country.
And there is no proof whatsoever that Carlbrook is responsible for this.
Kids mature at different rates
Exactly. So who's to say that the kid with "problems" wouldn't have eventually grown out of it without any sort of residential treatment?
A couple more are in rehab. One that I know of just committed a felony
Um.. You know, this doesn't exactly help your argument.
Besides, one of the studies that HAS been done has shown that many kids who have "graduated" some programs came out using much worse drugs than they did going into the place. (I believe the figure is 50/50. Exactly the same as random chance. But I could be wrong. It might actually be more in favor of kids failing to acclimate to society after these programs. I'd have to double check the study.) Since that is the case, it obviously doesn't help in terms of getting kids to stop using drugs, and could possibly make it worse. But at the very least, it didn't seem to make much of a difference.
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The one thing you haven't been able to tell me or the other parents is- What would you do with a teen who could no longer live in the home or the community? Assume all local resources are exhausted, the family is being destroyed by the behavior of the teen, there is not an addiction problem requiring a rehab facility.... I'll answer for you- the ONLY choice is to try an emotional growth program which also offers the academics which many teens still need. I could care less if there is scientific proof as to the success rate. My kid needed a place to go to school, obtain therapy and be away from home. He had already been kicked out of regular boarding school. It doesn't matter if he would have "eventually" grown out of this behavior. He couldn't remain in the home- he, 2 years later, readily admits this.
I think the disconnect here is that you really don't understand what happens when these type of problems are occurring in a home. Maybe some families are willing to just leave the kid to the mercy of the legal system or wash their hands of the whole thing. We were not willing to do that. We chose wilderness and Carlbrook. It was a tough year, but not as tough as what we had been through leading up to it.
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What would you do with a teen who could no longer live in the home or the community?
What is your criteria for this? What constitutes "no longer being able to live in the home or community?"
And actually, Maia talks about this in her book. She lists plenty of ideas and courses of action to take with a troubled teen, and what a parent should do to investigate potential caregivers to ensure that they will take good care of your kid.
But if you are a parent who believes in the emotional growth "tough love" industry, then god help your child.
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Amen. Ted
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On 2006-03-06 11:08:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:
"What would you do with a teen who could no longer live in the home or the community?
What is your criteria for this? What constitutes "no longer being able to live in the home or community?"
And actually, Maia talks about this in her book. She lists plenty of ideas and courses of action to take with a troubled teen, and what a parent should do to investigate potential caregivers to ensure that they will take good care of your kid.
But if you are a parent who believes in the emotional growth "tough love" industry, then god help your child.
"
:tup: :tup:
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"What constitutes "no longer being able to live in the home or community?""
The kid is engaging in increasingly risky behavior- this may be illegal activity or drug/alcohol abuse OR sexual promiscuity. The kid will not accept any direction or correction from the adults in his life. The kid has been kicked out of school. The kid is violent and may be stealing from the family or the parents of friends. The parents have lost control. There is no other adult or living situation that is acceptable. The kid's life is going down the tubes and the family members are unable to function acceptably due to issues involving the teen.
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(http://http://www.p2p-zone.com/underground/images/smilies/faintthud.gif)
Welcome to the wonderful world of parenting. Get a grip and raise your kid yourself. It blows my mind how parents can send their kid off someplace to forever become the family scapegoat while ignoring their poor parenting in the first damn place.
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I think I can speak for the parents posting here in saying that noone is saying they "believe in the emotional growth/tough love industry". We are saying that in the case of our particular families, one specific program proved to be worthwhile.
I still have a hard time understanding why that is so hard for you to accept. No one here is defending abusive programs or claiming that the whole industry is wonderful. I wish NONE of these programs were needed!
I'm sure there are a number of kids who went back to using drugs. That was not the issue with my kid in the first place, so that was not my experience. I never heard Carlbrook guarantee that the kids would never touch drugs again.
Karen
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On 2006-03-06 11:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I still have a hard time understanding why that is so hard for you to accept.
and we have a hard time understanding how you don't see the abusive and destructive nature of these programs from their inception. They're based on faulty premises to begin with so no amount of whitewash and roses is going to make them any better.
No one here is defending abusive programs
You might not be meaning to, but you are.
I wish NONE of these programs were needed!
They're not.
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"Get a grip and raise your kid yourself. It blows my mind how parents can send their kid off someplace to forever become the family scapegoat while ignoring their poor parenting in the first damn place."
Part of parenting is recognizing when you have exhausted the personal resources available to you. I have readily admitted my parenting mistakes. My kid had way too many privileges and not many consequences. His older sibling didn't wind up in a program, however. The best decision I could make for my kid was to send him to wilderness. Again, HE ADMITS THAT. He can look back and see the damage he was causing to himself, others and his future. He claims he would have been OK if he had come home after wilderness. Perhaps. However, by going to Carlbrook a whole new set of options opened up which has proved to be very beneficial to his future.
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Parenting isn't about priveleges and punishments. I think that's part of the whole fucked up mentality of parents today. Parenting is about connecting with your kids, teaching them. It's not about molding them into miniature versions of ourselves or into what we want for them. It's about helping them to discover what that is and succeed at it even if we don't get it or it's not what we would have chosen for them. No one said it's not scary. It is. Most of the damn time. But this whole system of reward and punishment is so far from what these kids need.
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I'll answer for you- the ONLY choice is to try an emotional growth program which also offers the academics which many teens still need. I could care less if there is scientific proof as to the success rate
Well, there you have it, folks. A more typical programmie response could not be given.
She doesn't care if it works or not. She doesn't care if it has been evaluated by research. She doesn't even care to let me answer the question SHE asked me - she even answers that one FOR me (how gracious!).
My problem with these type of people usually comes with the "we tried everything" answer. Quite clearly, you have not. It is obvious that you did not even consult a reputable professional psychologist who specializes in adolescent and family treatment. If you did, s/he would have told you not to consider an "EG" program because there is no quantifiable data that shows them to be effective, yet there is copious clinical data that shows them to be harmful.
So, no, you DIDN'T try everything else first. You didn't even cover the basics like a consultation with a reputable child/family psychologist. If you did, you wouldn't be here.
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this may be illegal activity or drug/alcohol abuse OR sexual promiscuity. The kid will not accept any direction or correction from the adults in his life. The kid has been kicked out of school. The kid is violent and may be stealing from the family or the parents of friends.
Welcome to the world of having a teen. YES, teens can be violent and steal from you.
And you know what? I CAN'T say what constitutes a need for residential treatment. You know why? BECAUSE I'M NOT A CHILD THERAPIST, PSYCHIATRIST OR SPECIALIST, AND NEITHER ARE YOU. Ever consider having a kid evaluated before deciding to simply ship him or her off? (And that is, evaluated by someone who doesn't have ties to the behavior mod industry, or gets kickbacks from them, or is on their payroll.)
What I CAN say is, no matter how fucked up a kid is, they don't deserve going to an emotional growth school. There ARE alternatives. Read Maia's book.
I've said this before, but the current parent culture is just ridiculous. Less involvement, and higher expectations.
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I also notice that when these pro-program parents are touting the virtues of their beloveds, they often mention that kids are being accepted into "very prestigious schools" etc. That's another thing that makes me think parents really are more interested in churning out these little Waspish (pun intended) soldiers than they are in actually finding out what's right for the kid.
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On 2006-03-06 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I also notice that when these pro-program parents are touting the virtues of their beloveds, they often mention that kids are being accepted into "very prestigious schools" etc. That's another thing that makes me think parents really are more interested in churning out these little Waspish (pun intended) soldiers than they are in actually finding out what's right for the kid."
And even so, there is no guarantee that these places are responsible for their placement in such colleges.
I will say one thing, though, it certainly fucked up my ability to socialize with my classmates. It took about two years before I was able to not be a total holier than thou brainwashed retard.
So maybe your kid got into college. How did they do socially when they first got there? Were they able to even interact on a normal level? (Don't bother answering that, really. Kids don't normally talk with their parents about such things. I know that I am staunchly anti-program and I don't talk with my parents about it at all.)
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"You didn't even cover the basics like a consultation with a reputable child/family psychologist. If you did, you wouldn't be here."
Wrong again, DJ. We consulted with several. That is what finally led us make the phone call. The therapist that treated our son in wilderness is one of the best therapists I have ever encountered. He recommended Carlbrook (along with our EC).
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castle- for the milliionth time, noone is saying Carlbrook or any other program got their kid into college. What it did was possibly prevent the kid from ruining his or her chances at getting into a good college. I can assure you that my kid would not be heading for the college he will attend next fall if he had continued on the course he was on pre-Carlbrook.
My kid was only in wilderness/Carlbrook for a total of a year. There was absolutely no effect on his social development. He did fine at his boarding school pre-program and is doing fine post-program. He can be an arrogant jerk, but that isn't Carlbrook's fault.
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On 2006-03-06 11:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
Part of parenting is recognizing when you have exhausted the personal resources available to you. I have readily admitted my parenting mistakes. My kid had way too many privileges and not many consequences.
You guys will only admit to things like "oh, I wasn't strict enough"..."my kid had way too much"...which all fits in nicely with the system in place at the programs. That way they can make up ridiculous, arbitrary rules and justify them as necessary for the kids to realise they're not in control anymore. You don't really hear any of them admit that they were too busy to have truly gotten to know their kid or that maybe they were too hard and set some unrealistic expectations or that maybe, just maybe they really DO expect the kid to grow up exactly how they'd planned. Nope, we only hear about how the parents were too lenient and that's why they need someone to crack the whip for them.
How truly sad and pathetic.
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And you know what? I CAN'T say what constitutes a need for residential treatment. You know why? BECAUSE I'M NOT A CHILD THERAPIST, PSYCHIATRIST OR SPECIALIST, AND NEITHER ARE YOU.
Well, I am. I can certainly tell you if a child meets the clinical threshold for a residential placement. This threshold is met in less than one percent of clinical cases.
The problem is that the vast majority of these parents never had their kid evaluated/diagnosed and the facilities don't do testing. Most of the time the kid is summarily labeled "ODD" - and that diagnosis is "iffy" anyway (most clinicians do not use ODD as a dx at all and in over 90% of ODD cases the child is UNDER TEN YEARS OF AGE).
So, you're being asked to swallow a LOT of garbage. One, your teen is among the one in ten cases of ODD over ten years of age AND that the "ODD" is at the clinical threshold of requiring inpatient treatment (significantly less than ONE PERCENT). Do the math. This scenario describes about .0005% of the teenage population (if you factor out that ODD doesn't really hold water as a dx).
How exactly did Carlbrook get over a hundred of these kids? How did the industry find over 20,000 of them? This time I'll answer for you, Karen: FRAUD. Plain and simple.
Karen, what is your son's diagnosis? Who did the clinical evaluation.
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His diagnosis was made after extensive testing at the wilderness program. I am not going to share that here, sorry. The testing was done by a reputable psychologist (PhD) and we received an extensive report.
Where is the fraud? Carlbrook (or wilderness) guarantees nothing. As Ted pointed out, Carlbrook does an extensive investigation into your kid before they are accepted. Mine barely got in, by the way (due in part to almost killing his escorts during the transport to wilderness).
Karen
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There was absolutely no effect on his social development
Really? How do you measure this? How could you possibly know? Another "guess" on your part?
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His diagnosis was made after extensive testing at the wilderness program. I am not going to share that here, sorry. The testing was done by a reputable psychologist (PhD) and we received an extensive report.
Why can't you say what the dx is? Obviously, it has to be extremely severe (worse than 99.5% of ALL CASES) or he wouldn't have been placed residentially.
Your argument has totally deflated. You don't know if the program works, you don't care if it does or doesn't AND you won't even say the dx that put your kid there. Could it be that the placement was meritless? It seems so.
Until you say WHY your kid was deemed to be worse off than 99.5% of the mentally ill population and NEEDED residential placement, you cannot seriously expect anyone to listen to anything you have to say, can you?
You've shot yourself in the foot. This is where your tired rhetoric ends and real facts emerge.
And, BTW, why on earth would you send your kid to wildrness without even having an evaluation first? Your "we did everything we could" mantra is just plain false (you didn't even have your kid TESTED before you shipped him out!), but I guess I want you to prop yourself up somehow.
Karen, the more you talk, the more you show you're full of shit.
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On 2006-03-06 12:09:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Obviously, it has to be extremely severe (worse than 99.5% of ALL CASES) or he wouldn't have been placed residentially.
That's an extremely important point I think. The number of kids who are actually endangering themselves or someone else in pretty goddamn small. It would be interesting to see the percentages of kids who are turned away due to the very thing that DJ just brought up. How many really, truly and honestly need to be removed from their homes?
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DJ- you have stopped making any sense and all you are doing is ignoring most of what I am saying and twisting the rest.
The only diagnosis I needed before sending my kid to wilderness was that he was no longer able to safely live in our household or our community. Wilderness was the absolutely perfect choice for him. You would have to know more about him to understand this.
As far as social impact- my son is around enough peers and adults who are constantly monitoring him at his boarding school. I assure you that I have lots of feedback on everything he does. He has plenty of friends, plenty of girlfriends, is captain of his team, and otherwise seems to be doing just fine.
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On 2006-03-06 12:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DJ- you have stopped making any sense and all you are doing is ignoring most of what I am saying and twisting the rest.
No, you're avoiding the questions that have been asked of you.
The only diagnosis I needed before sending my kid to wilderness was that he was no longer able to safely live in our household or our community.
What do you mean by this?
Wilderness was the absolutely perfect choice for him. You would have to know more about him to understand this.
What criteria did you use to come to that conclusion?
As far as social impact- my son is around enough peers and adults who are constantly monitoring him at his boarding school.
Gee, I bet that's a load of fun. What a way to have to go through life. But no, he's not being impeded socially at all. ::noway:: :cry:
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The only diagnosis I needed before sending my kid to wilderness was that he was no longer able to safely live in our household or our community.
This is where the rubber meets the road, Karen.
So, you now admit that your kid had no psychological evaluation before you sent him to wilderness, right? "We did everything." Yeah, right, everything except even having a psychologist evaluate your son. How negligent! How PATHETIC.
You also are saying that when you eventually got around to looking into what the problem was - AFTER you sent him away - that the dx doesn't matter, nor does it matter if that dx is best treated by residential placement in an experimental "EG" "school." Lady, I knew your story would come out eventually.
Karen, the parent who advocates kidnapping your kid, placing them in an experimental program with zero clinical validity, who doesn't believe in psychometric testing and even believes that "everything" means "nothing."
Great, Karen. You're a fine example to egotistical parents everywhere who believe - despite the fact that they did a horrible job parenting - they know better than trained mental health professionals what's good for their kid. Sure, just completely discount reason expert advice and you have the perfect program parent: ignorant and arrogant concurrently.
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"Tame little child creature."
Now, THAT is the funniest thing I have read so far on this forum. You clearly have not paid attention to my posts. You just provided a really good laugh for any of the Carlbrook staff following this thread.
This has gotten old.
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I believe I told you that the psychologist treating my son recommended wilderness. That would be a "trained mental health professional".
I have no need to justify my choices to you, DJ. The results speak for themselves.
Karen
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On 2006-03-06 12:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Tame little child creature."
Thank Frank Zappa.....
The more BORING a child is, the more the parents,
when showing off the child, receive adulation for
being GOOD PARENTS -- because they have a TAME
CHILD-CREATURE in their house.
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This has gotten old
Yes, your evasion and lying do get old fast.
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On 2006-03-06 12:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Tame little child creature."
Now, THAT is the funniest thing I have read so far on this forum. You clearly have not paid attention to my posts.
I've paid very close attention.
You just provided a really good laugh for any of the Carlbrook staff following this thread.
Of course they're not child creatures when they come in. That's what you'd like them turned into and what programs promise. Try to keep up.
This has gotten old."
Yes it has.
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I believe I told you that the psychologist treating my son recommended wilderness. That would be a "trained mental health professional".
You had ALREADY SENT HIM, Karen. These places don't turn down cash in hand.
Also, I said "reputable" mental health professional, not some reject on the payroll of the place to which he is PAID TO REFER.
Recommened BASED ON WHAT? What was the dx that REQUIRED an RTC?
I have no need to justify my choices to you, DJ.
No, no you don't. You have the ongoing, continual need to justify yourself to a bunch of strangers on a message board, though. It's a sickness.
Besides, if you told even an IOTA of truth surrounding your son's "diagnosis" you'd be roundly ridiculed, and rightfully so, due to the fact that you're so full of shit your eyes are brown.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-03-06 12:50 ]
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"You didn't even cover the basics like a consultation with a reputable child/family psychologist. If you did, you wouldn't be here."
Wrong again, DJ. We consulted with several. That is what finally led us to make the phone call. The therapist that treated our son in wilderness is one of the best therapists I have ever encountered. He recommended Carlbrook (along with our EC)."
The therapist IN OUR HOME TOWN recommended wilderness. The testing was done AT wilderness by a different therapist.
My kid did not go to a RTC. He went to Carlbrook.
It is not a RTC.
I am not justifying myself. As I said, the results speak for themselves. I am just trying to present the correct information for any unsuspecting parents who might wander onto this site.
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On 2006-03-06 12:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
My kid did not go to a RTC. He went to Carlbrook.
Does Carlbrook provide so-called "emotional growth"?
I am not justifying myself.
Yes you are.
I am just trying to present the correct information for any unsuspecting parents who might wander onto this site."
We're trying to present correct information for any unsuspecting parents who might wander onto Carlbrook's site.
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Yanno, I love this shit.
NOBODY here can give a clear cut answer as to what the criteria for needing 'wilderness' or 'RTC' are, what they do, or how they do it, or even how you know it worked, but they all can agree that they trust it to work.
Amazing!
The PROPER MEDICAL criteria of locking someone up is if they would literally die or suffer severe injury if they werent being supervised 24/7 by trained, equipped staff. Programs have poorly trained (if that) underequipped staff - they only thing they can do is do sloppy takedowns and maybe jab some halodol into said kids buttcheek.
Now, Im sure programs/programmies might say that they 'feel' (subjectively, and theyre not experts in anything but manipulating parents and the words of teenagers...) the kid would hurt themself or others without supervision, but not even that shaky arguement works considering 99% of programs have proper medical facilities.
DJ, youre wasting your time. Take a step back, clear your head, and analyze what you and I say vs what they say, and more importantly HOW we say it. We come on with facts, rational thought and they come on with emotions and feelings from the get go. The way we describe things is more factual and thoughtful whereas theyre all about FEELINGS.
I feel it should be obvious what im trying to get at - but its not like this thread was in vain. Anyone who still hasnt drunken the punch, so to speak, whose reading this thread will be able to decide for themselves unless theyre a predisposed program junkie themselves and prefer feelings to facts.
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The therapist IN OUR HOME TOWN recommended wilderness.
Based on what diagnosis?
The testing was done AT wilderness by a different therapist.
Yeah, you already said this. After you sent your kid you had an evaluation performed by the guy who worked for the place to which you'd already shipped your child with the escorts. I got that part of it.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-03-06 14:45 ]
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DJ - fix your quote tags please!
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DJ, youre wasting your time.
I believe I have extolled you with this very advice previously as well, yet, strangely, here we both are again.
Nice to see you, Niles.
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As I said, this isnt for the programmies, its for those who might read this who are thinking about a program for their kids :razz:
And please, fix your quote tags in your previous post!
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In all reality...I think that we'll never get direct answers...even from direct questions...at least that seems to be my experience.
I'm not going to engage anybody in long winded drawn out arguments and when I pose a question...and get a non answer (such as Ted's posting to my last question)...I can already see that trying to reason...or have intelligent discourse without being replied to in a condescending manner is futile. So...if you don't know the answer (Ted)...don't reply to my question.
Now...on to my next question.
I'm sending this one your way Karen
You state that many kids go back to drugs and that many kids go onto prestigious universities.
1. Could you please back that up with the supporting statistics.
2. Could you provide me with a list of universities (prestigious ones) that have accepted Carlbrook Grads. I don't want students names as I would like to respect their privacy, but with a list of these institutions of higher education, it would be easy to call the admissions departments of said schools and verify how many...if in fact any...Carlbrook grads are currently attending.
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http://www.carlbrook.org/academics/acc.htm (http://www.carlbrook.org/academics/acc.htm)
These are acceptances and not just a list of where they are attending. Each kid usually has more than one acceptance. Also, I assume this doesn't include kids like my son who got into college out of a post-Carlbrook school. Of the post-Carlbrook kids who are at other high schools, I personally know of acceptances to Washington U (St. Louis), U of Chicago, U of Pennsylvania, USC (California), RPI, NYU, Indiana, Georgia and Yale.
I also know of at least 8 or so kids who have gone back to drug use and/or have quit college. These are kids my son has heard from or heard about through former classmates.
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Not as an impressive list as I would have expected given the touts of many of the parents...but not unimpressive either.
It seems that the kids that went on to finish high school after Carlbrook did a little better than the ones that were accepted straight out of Carlbrook...i.e. U of P vs Penn St.
That does clear up a few of my academic concerns with Carlbrook vs RMA.
One thing that I certainly don't buy however is the "Scholarship" claim to fame that is listed on Carlbrooks site...I'm not saying it is false...just questionable.
I also find it interesting that there seems to be a higher matriculation rate for the "lesser" universities than for those with better national reputations.
now...If somebody could refer to my questions about the Seminars. I'm really not looking for a parents answer to this (no offense Karen) as the parents really don't know the "play by play" as I had mentioned before concerning the workshops. Needless to say...it took me almost 20 years to finally tell my Dad the "play by play" and he was pretty shocked.
I guess that this is a question that Tim's gonna have to come out from behind the curtain and answer...but from what I have been told (in so many words)...he is far too busy to care about his former students and answer their questions.
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On 2006-03-06 15:42:00, OKB4RMA wrote:
"In all reality...I think that we'll never get direct answers...even from direct questions...at least that seems to be my experience.
I'm not going to engage anybody in long winded drawn out arguments and when I pose a question...and get a non answer (such as Ted's posting to my last question)...I can already see that trying to reason...or have intelligent discourse without being replied to in a condescending manner is futile. So...if you don't know the answer (Ted)...don't reply to my question.
Now...on to my next question.
I'm sending this one your way Karen
You state that many kids go back to drugs and that many kids go onto prestigious universities.
1. Could you please back that up with the supporting statistics.
2. Could you provide me with a list of universities (prestigious ones) that have accepted Carlbrook Grads. I don't want students names as I would like to respect their privacy, but with a list of these institutions of higher education, it would be easy to call the admissions departments of said schools and verify how many...if in fact any...Carlbrook grads are currently attending."
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What tools did you use to stay sober and do so well? Did you go to boarding school post Carlbrook? My son is at Carlbrook for cocaine addition and I worry about him using cocaine once again when he comes out.
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If you sent your kid to Carlbrook for substance abuse issues, you did your kid a great disservice.
Carlbrook is not equipped or staffed to deal with SA issues. How do you think a bullshit behavior mod program is going to help with addiction?
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On 2006-03-10 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What tools did you use to stay sober and do so well? Did you go to boarding school post Carlbrook? My son is at Carlbrook for cocaine addition and I worry about him using cocaine once again when he comes out."
You should be, sending a kid to a program for coke addiction will help nothing.
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It might.
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On 2006-03-10 10:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-03-10 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What tools did you use to stay sober and do so well? Did you go to boarding school post Carlbrook? My son is at Carlbrook for cocaine addition and I worry about him using cocaine once again when he comes out."
You should be, sending a kid to a program for coke addiction will help nothing."
Carlbrook never promises they won't do it again (whatever IT is.) They give the kids tools to not be impulsive and reckless in their decision making. My kid went to Carlbrook and things have been good ever since. Not perfect but perfectly fine for all three of us
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Carlbrook has an excellent therapeutic staff, and with some hard work, your kid will understand the underlying issues that led him or her to medicate with drugs. Drug/alcohol abuse is a symptom of something else, and Carlbrook is pretty good at getting at what that might be.
I do agree that a lot of the hard-core drug abusers DID go back to using drugs post-Carlbrook, but did have the tools to understand their choices and, hopefully, in the future, change their patterns.
Karen
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On 2006-03-10 08:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you sent your kid to Carlbrook for substance abuse issues, you did your kid a great disservice.
Carlbrook is not equipped or staffed to deal with SA issues. How do you think a bullshit behavior mod program is going to help with addiction?"
What do YOU know about Carlbrook. Ever even been there?
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On 2006-03-10 17:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-03-10 08:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you sent your kid to Carlbrook for substance abuse issues, you did your kid a great disservice.
Carlbrook is not equipped or staffed to deal with SA issues. How do you think a bullshit behavior mod program is going to help with addiction?"
What do YOU know about Carlbrook. Ever even been there?"
And the wheel in the sky keeps on turning...[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2006-03-10 17:37 ]
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So why not send those kids to a setting that WILL help them with drug issues when they get back into their real life?
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Carlbrook will help them with drug issues. It is not a 12-step based treatment center. It is an emotional growth school. If their drug abuse issues stem from emotional problems, which most do, they will benefit from Carlbrook. No, there is no guarantee that the kid will never use drugs again. I suppose you are aware of programs that completely "cure" drug abuse.
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No, however I am aware of programs that properly address the problem, and don't rely on isolation in order to provide sobriety. It's an illusion that is shattered once the kid leaves.
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Carlbrook doesn't rely on isolation to provide sobriety. It does rely on a substance-free environment. Why do you throw that crap out there that you know is false?
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On 2006-03-10 17:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So why not send those kids to a setting that WILL help them with drug issues when they get back into their real life?"
Well, where in the hell would that be? Some cities (ours included) don't even HAVE an adolescent rehab facility and THOSE places that do exist aren't any better than boot camp. Carlbrook was the better choice. Again, our kid BEAT it and Carlbrook helped. It might not be forever but things are smooth now for all of us and have been for a year.
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On 2006-03-10 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No, however I am aware of programs that properly address the problem, and don't rely on isolation in order to provide sobriety. It's an illusion that is shattered once the kid leaves."
O, please give us the names of these places and while you are at it, give us all of the statistical information you are relying on. The folks on this site NEED statistics...authentic ones, not phone surveys.
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And the wheel in the sky keeps on turning...[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2006-03-10 17:37 ]"
[/quote]
Don't you have anything else to say but nanny nanny poo poo? I know you are but what am I? When anybody around here makes a valid point it gets ugly.
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Good answers, fellow-anon. Nice to see Ted and I have some company.
Karen
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I will be checking this place on the weekends and calling bullshit on this vast generalization of programs. There are bad ones, EVERYONE KNOWS IT, but Carlbrook isn't one of them. It works for at least one kid, mine. The it "ONLY HURTS AND NEVER HELPS" premise is just false.
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Well...I'm gonna weigh in on the other side of the topic and say that I would still be hesitant to send a child to a program that is run in a similar manner to the one that I was in...and by the same people no less. I can only assume that the same techniques are used and due to the fact that none of the Pro-Carlbrook group has chosen to answer questions regarding the workshops just goes to show that this program...just like all the others that use the same M.O....seems to have something to hide.
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There are not enough Carlbrook graduates out there to beat the odds to even find this place. Give it some time and we can all hope it is an OK program -unless, of course, you want to be right and have everyone that went there suffer like you did. My kid liked it. I'm hesitant to even mention fornits to my kid because I want college to be the focus, not this chronic piss and moan argument.
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OKB4, do you have a child or are you still a child? I assume you are male. The day, if it comes, that your son is violent towards your wife and young daughter you may remember this place. Just try standing in the shoes of ordianry people that loved their kid and something went horribly wrong. We aren't bad people and our kid thanks us for the intervention we provided. That's all I have to offer.
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On 2006-03-10 21:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"OKB4, do you have a child or are you still a child? I assume you are male. The day, if it comes, that your son is violent towards your wife and young daughter you may remember this place. Just try standing in the shoes of ordianry people that loved their kid and something went horribly wrong. We aren't bad people and our kid thanks us for the intervention we provided. That's all I have to offer. "
First...I'm not calling you bad parents...I don't troll these threads so that I can "harass" parents for "not raising their children right" blah blah blah. I'm giving you guys the benefit of the doubt. However...I'm really not sure that you are *fully* aware of what goes on in the programs.
No...I am not a parent...and I don't play one on T.V. either...but I am hardly a child. I graduated from Mr. Braces program back in the mid 80's and feel that I am qualified to make comments on the therapeutic structure of the program until somebody gives me a straight answer as to how things are being run now.
here is a post I just made regarding just a *small* part of my horribly traumatic "truth propheet" I hope that you can understand my concerns regarding this type of therapy and that you can see where it can be misused. It took me 20+/- years for me to finally tell my dad what *really* went on in the workshops other than the basic canned generalizations of the program.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =20#180258 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14399&forum=11&start=20#180258)
and please remember...I am not bashing you as parents...I understand the situations that many of you can be in...however...I am opposed to the therapy used in these programs.
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"to a program that is run in a similar manner to the one that I was in...and by the same people no less. I can only assume that the same techniques are used"
Here is the real issue. Since Carlbrook was started by former Cascade grads who wanted to CHANGE the techniques, this assumption can NOT be made.
While Brace, Bender and others have been around the industry for awhile, you can not assume that they have not learned from past experience. Simply based on the reports of the few grads that do weigh in here, it does not appear that the coercive methods reported by you 80s kids are still employed- at least not at Carlbrook.
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it does not appear that the coercive methods reported by you 80s kids are still employed- at least not at Carlbrook.
appearances can be deceiving.
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not as deceiving as false assumptions.
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On 2006-03-10 20:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Good answers, fellow-anon. Nice to see Ted and I have some company.
Karen"
Shut up Karen you fucking loser. I'm going to bump your thread so everyone really knows what you're like - a hateful, nasty bitch.
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So, is this the way it is? Do the people that disagree with you get abused? You are no better than the people that "abused" you at whatever place you went to. There is no reason to call anyone a "nasty, fucking bitch" unless you are so full of venom that I want you to strike out and bite. You, Mr. "bump your thread", need to grow up. Nanny nanny poo poo.
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Doesn't bother me. The more they attack me in such a vile way, the more it completely discredits anything they might have to contribute. It shows the sort of fringe element involved here....
Karen
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One more thing, is that the way you spoke to your mother? If so I can completely understand why they sent you away.
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My main concern was when they decided they figured out my home phone number and posted it on the website- except that it wasn't mine! I know from the disgusting emails and IMs I received, that this poor person probably got some unwanted calls.
Karen
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Did they hack your computer for that information or did you post it online and they found it?
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On 2006-03-11 11:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"One more thing, is that the way you spoke to your mother? If so I can completely understand why they sent you away. "
Why dont you sign your name to this one Karen? Nanny nanny boo boo indeed.
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On 2006-03-11 11:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Doesn't bother me. The more they attack me in such a vile way, the more it completely discredits anything they might have to contribute. It shows the sort of fringe element involved here....
Karen"
You discredited yourself a LONG time ago, Karen. You are the fringe element here. :lol:
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"Why dont you sign your name to this one Karen? Nanny nanny boo boo indeed."
Because it wasn't my post!
Karen
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She called in struggling turkey backup. :lol:
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On 2006-03-11 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So, is this the way it is? Do the people that disagree with you get abused? You are no better than the people that "abused" you at whatever place you went to. There is no reason to call anyone a "nasty, fucking bitch" unless you are so full of venom that I want you to strike out and bite. You, Mr. "bump your thread", need to grow up. Nanny nanny poo poo."
Karen is one of two idiots with a thread dedicated entirely to them. Karen's is HUNDREDS of posts long. She brought it on herself thru her degrading insults to victims of programs. She deserves it completely. She also started a little campaign to get the identity of another poster, find out where he works and get him fired. She is a nasty, vile bitch.
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"She brought it on herself thru her degrading insults to victims of programs. She deserves it completely. She also started a little campaign to get the identity of another poster, find out where he works and get him fired. She is a nasty, vile bitch."
I want to clarify that this is not true. I never made any degrading insults to anyone. I did respond to some earlier attacks on me. I should not have bothered to stoop to that level. Until recently, I seldom posted or even read this site. I have no idea what you are talking about as far as getting anyone fired. You must be confusing me with someone else. Since you know nothing about me, I don't think you can categorize me in any way- bitch or otherwise. I am simply a parent who disagrees with your generalizations about emotional growth programs and finds your vicious personal attacks on parents AND teens who try to present some positive information about a program immature and repugnant.
Karen
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On 2006-03-11 13:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
""She brought it on herself thru her degrading insults to victims of programs. She deserves it completely. She also started a little campaign to get the identity of another poster, find out where he works and get him fired. She is a nasty, vile bitch."
I want to clarify that this is not true. I never made any degrading insults to anyone. I did respond to some earlier attacks on me. I should not have bothered to stoop to that level. Until recently, I seldom posted or even read this site. I have no idea what you are talking about as far as getting anyone fired. You must be confusing me with someone else. Since you know nothing about me, I don't think you can categorize me in any way- bitch or otherwise. I am simply a parent who disagrees with your generalizations about emotional growth programs and finds your vicious personal attacks on parents AND teens who try to present some positive information about a program immature and repugnant.
Karen"
This is called "revisionist history."
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-03-11 13:40 ]
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On 2006-03-11 13:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am simply a parent who disagrees with your generalizations about emotional growth programs and finds your vicious personal attacks on parents AND teens who try to present some positive information about a program immature and repugnant.
Karen"
I am simply a student of an abusive program with a differing view than you, so why can't I post at struggling teens, the website you came from? Everyone one of you who comes here to troll is a flaming hypocrite because you go and hide behind your moderated forum and cry foul when you get bit.
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On 2006-03-11 13:39:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-03-11 13:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
""She brought it on herself thru her degrading insults to victims of programs. She deserves it completely. She also started a little campaign to get the identity of another poster, find out where he works and get him fired. She is a nasty, vile bitch."
I want to clarify that this is not true. I never made any degrading insults to anyone. I did respond to some earlier attacks on me. I should not have bothered to stoop to that level. Until recently, I seldom posted or even read this site. I have no idea what you are talking about as far as getting anyone fired. You must be confusing me with someone else. Since you know nothing about me, I don't think you can categorize me in any way- bitch or otherwise. I am simply a parent who disagrees with your generalizations about emotional growth programs and finds your vicious personal attacks on parents AND teens who try to present some positive information about a program immature and repugnant.
Karen"
This is called "revisionist history."
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-03-11 13:40 ]"
Whoa. Is Karen the one who was harassing you???
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On 2006-03-11 13:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-03-11 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So, is this the way it is? Do the people that disagree with you get abused? You are no better than the people that "abused" you at whatever place you went to. There is no reason to call anyone a "nasty, fucking bitch" unless you are so full of venom that I want you to strike out and bite. You, Mr. "bump your thread", need to grow up. Nanny nanny poo poo."
Karen is one of two idiots with a thread dedicated entirely to them. Karen's is HUNDREDS of posts long. She brought it on herself thru her degrading insults to victims of programs. She deserves it completely. She also started a little campaign to get the identity of another poster, find out where he works and get him fired. She is a nasty, vile bitch."
Idiots if we dare to disagree with any of you. I actually know more about Carlbrook than Karen does because my kid went through the whole program. In fact, all 5 workshops. So, you think there are only two people here that disagree with you. I think you are wrong.
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Idiots if we dare to disagree with any of you. I actually know more about Carlbrook than Karen does because my kid went through the whole program. In fact, all 5 workshops. So, you think there are only two people here that disagree with you. I think you are wrong.
No, I don't think people who disagree with me are idiots. There are some who are, and some who are not. It depends on whether or not you are able to construct a valid argument and offer salient points rather than rhetoric.
Some of the EG supporters often confuse scientific research and the citing thereof rhetoric. These are the ones that most posters would consider idiots.
I think what this poster was saying is that there are really only two people who have been so abusive and degrading that they have their own threads dedicated to them: KarenInDallas and Otawa5. It is interesting to note that both of these ladies post regularly in the HLA forum for sole purpose of degrading people, but niether one of them has any knowledge whatsoever about HLA. This type of ignorant arrogance has earned them their rightful places here.
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"both of these ladies post regularly in the HLA forum for sole purpose of degrading people, but niether one of them has any knowledge whatsoever about HLA."
DJ, why are you lying? Can't you challenge me enough on my legitimate posts without making things up?
Karen
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Not only can I challenge you intellectually, I have fully debunked your arguments regarding EG. That's already been done.
Now, you post to this forum from your computer with a fixed IP address. The same IP address appears regularly in the HLA forum. I won't say it's positively not another member of your household, but I will say that it positively comes from your computer. Ask Deborah, she's monitored your activity as well.
See, you think that by not using a screenname, you can avoid accountability for your behavior. In your ignorance of information sciences, you fail to realize that your screenname is for convenience only. There are particular identifiers (like IP address) that are independent of your screenname.
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Karen eats, sleeps and breathes fornits, and people should ask themselves, why? She's been around since her original trolling and got caught. She managed to troll without getting caught again for a while, until about 10 pages back in this thread she starts signing her name. Again, ask yourself, why?
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My purpose in posting was to make sure unsuspecting parents knew the true nature of this site. It took very little of my time to do that. I believe my purpose has been served. You have dug your own hole and discredited yourselves so thoroughly that you could not be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain.
Mission accomplished.
Bye now. :wave:
Karen
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This type of ignorant arrogance has earned them their rightful places here.
"
[/quote]
That's fine but the anonymous poster that calls them names like a child discredits all of you. If a prospective parent comes to Fornits for information and sees the abusive language posted by the Anonymous Poster that likes to "bump threads", he is liable to be sympathetic to the pro-posters and leave without looking further. Nobody wants to read that stuff. If the anti-TBS,RTC, etc. people want to be taken seriously then they should stop with the foul language. Those of us with angry teenagers are frankly sick and tired of it. We get enough of it at home. Not too many of us have the time, inclination or energy to read back and try to determine what Karen did to deserve all of this hostility. We don't care.
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Yes, Karen, mission accomplished.
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On 2006-03-12 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen eats, sleeps and breathes fornits, and people should ask themselves, why? She's been around since her original trolling and got caught. She managed to troll without getting caught again for a while, until about 10 pages back in this thread she starts signing her name. Again, ask yourself, why? "
I don't understand this. Do you need an invitation to be here? What exactly did she "get caught" doing. Did she make the mistake of disagreeing with you and then get abused by some of you? I really don't get it. It seems to me that everyone here is "trolling".
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That's fine but the anonymous poster that calls them names like a child discredits all of you. If a prospective parent comes to Fornits for information and sees the abusive language posted by the Anonymous Poster that likes to "bump threads", he is liable to be sympathetic to the pro-posters and leave without looking further. Nobody wants to read that stuff. If the anti-TBS,RTC, etc. people want to be taken seriously then they should stop with the foul language. Those of us with angry teenagers are frankly sick and tired of it. We get enough of it at home. Not too many of us have the time, inclination or energy to read back and try to determine what Karen did to deserve all of this hostility. We don't care.
News flash -- nobody cares what you think of this forum. Get lost if you don't like it.
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On 2006-03-12 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My purpose in posting was to make sure unsuspecting parents knew the true nature of this site. It took very little of my time to do that. I believe my purpose has been served. You have dug your own hole and discredited yourselves so thoroughly that you could not be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain.
Mission accomplished.
Bye now. :wave:
Karen"
Ya we've read your "goodbyes" before Karen. You wont leave, you cant help yourself can you???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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My purpose in posting was to make sure unsuspecting parents knew the true nature of this site. It took very little of my time to do that. I believe my purpose has been served.
Your purpose? LMFAO! You are priceless, karen, priceless! :rofl:
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Did I say I didn't like it? You are the kind of poster that makes me happy that I got my kid some help. I'm allowed to be here and you can call me anything you like but your hostility will discredit all of you, even those of you with valid and polite arguments.
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On 2006-03-12 07:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This type of ignorant arrogance has earned them their rightful places here.
"
That's fine but the anonymous poster that calls them names like a child discredits all of you. If a prospective parent comes to Fornits for information and sees the abusive language posted by the Anonymous Poster that likes to "bump threads", he is liable to be sympathetic to the pro-posters and leave without looking further. Nobody wants to read that stuff. If the anti-TBS,RTC, etc. people want to be taken seriously then they should stop with the foul language. Those of us with angry teenagers are frankly sick and tired of it. We get enough of it at home. Not too many of us have the time, inclination or energy to read back and try to determine what Karen did to deserve all of this hostility. We don't care."
You are right, the foul language should not continue. The website owner should immeditately hire you as a consultant, so you can implement censoring procedures. Maybe you can even become a moderator if you play your cards right? As a fan of this site I am sure you will enjoy this thread:
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#116799 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10851&forum=7&start=0#116799)
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On 2006-03-12 07:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did I say I didn't like it? You are the kind of poster that makes me happy that I got my kid some help. I'm allowed to be here and you can call me anything you like but your hostility will discredit all of you, even those of you with valid and polite arguments. "
Thank you for posting this, it shows how cruel program parents truly are. You are happy you punished your kid because of what strangers on the internet post? You just said you take your anger out on your kid for something other people do. You are a bad parent, thanks for making that clear to everyone. :lol:
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You are the kind of poster that makes me happy that I got my kid some help.
Please tell me this was Karen that posted this? Can we add this to the quote rotation... it's just too good not to.
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Again, you are not doing the kids you are trying to save any favors. Did you write that? I thought this was supposed to be a thread dedicated to the Carlbrook School.
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On 2006-03-12 08:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Again, you are not doing the kids you are trying to save any favors. Did you write that? I thought this was supposed to be a thread dedicated to the Carlbrook School. "
Yes... because you are SO concerned with the kids locked up. You payed tens of thousands of dollars to keep your kid locked up and you are questioning other peoples motives?? You just said 'save', so you too consider them in a position they need to be saved from??? Shows a lot about you... willing to argue to send kids to an place they need to be saved from, whats wrong with you?
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Again, you are not doing the kids you are trying to save any favors.
AND YOU ARE? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Yes... because you are SO concerned with the kids locked up. You payed tens of thousands of dollars to keep your kid locked up and you are questioning other peoples motives?? You just said 'save', so you too consider them in a position they need to be saved from??? Shows a lot about you... willing to argue to send kids to an place they need to be saved from, whats wrong with you? "
[/quote]
What makes you think I locked my kid up? You don't know me. Quit making assumptions.
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What makes you think I locked my kid up? You don't know me. Quit making assumptions.
Then tell us what are YOU doing to save kids, since you are so concerned with SAVING kids from carlbrook? You wouldn't of said it if you didn't consider it bad, so please - DO TELL.
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On 2006-03-12 07:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did I say I didn't like it? You are the kind of poster that makes me happy that I got my kid some help. I'm allowed to be here and you can call me anything you like but your hostility will discredit all of you, even those of you with valid and polite arguments. "
Wow, seek help.
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What makes you think I locked my kid up? You don't know me. Quit making assumptions.
I said it because you said this:
Again, you are not doing the kids you are trying to save any favors. Did you write that? I thought this was supposed to be a thread dedicated to the Carlbrook School.
Did I say I didn't like it? You are the kind of poster that makes me happy that I got my kid some help. I'm allowed to be here and you can call me anything you like but your hostility will discredit all of you, even those of you with valid and polite arguments.
Either two anons with an exactly similar writing style posted within minutes of each other, or you already said you are happy you got your kid 'some help'. Am I wrong, was that post not yours, because its easily checked?
What makes you think I locked my kid up?
Because you just said so. So where did you get your kid 'some help' then?
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On 2006-03-12 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
What makes you think I locked my kid up? You don't know me. Quit making assumptions.
Then tell us what are YOU doing to save kids, since you are so concerned with SAVING kids from carlbrook? You wouldn't of said it if you didn't consider it bad, so please - DO TELL."
I love Carlbrook. So did my kid. I was just pointing out that the foul language was shadowing your opinions.
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I love Carlbrook. So did my kid.
We drank the kool-aid together thru a double krazy straw.
Your kid LOVED Carlbrook? Highly doubtful.
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I love Carlbrook. So did my kid. I was just pointing out that the foul language was shadowing your opinions.
I am pointing out how obvious your lies are.
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So I think someone just mentioned me way back on page 2; I was "that kid" who requested to be sent to the woods in the middle of the winter. Weird.
Yeah, I went back to the woods, because they said if I did then I wouldn't have my graduation moved back (kept there for several extra months) because of the trouble I got myself into. They also said that I'd only be there (in the woods) for 2 weeks, so I wouldn't miss the last workshop (or seminar, for those who have attended different programs where that's the nomenclature preferred).
So that deal looked pretty good, and went off to the freezing Colorado wilderness, where I was informed after an extra 3 weeks that no, I couldn't graduate on time, as had been promised, and that I'd have to stick out another 6 months.
I was, at that point, heartbroken because all of the closest friends I'd ever had (one of the arguably few good things that comes out of Carlbrook and --I'm surmising-- its sister programs) would be graduating without me. So I said I wasn't willing to do that and went to go to California to finish highschool and live with my grandparents. It might just be the Stockholm-syndrome speaking, but it's probably the only real regret I have.
And yeah, I relapsed, and my use was far, far worse than it had been before Carlbrook/the two wilderness programs, but I eventually decided that enough was enough and went and got some 12-step help. I definitely have less in the way of criticism for those programs than I do the emotional-growth regimes, although one does notably need an internal desire to make them work.
Anyway, there's a nice ramble. I'm sure I'll read more and think of stuff I wish I'd said. I'd love to hear from anyone with any opinion- my email is [email protected], my AIM is BSturgess1985
Peace,
Sturge
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So I did a little of the reading suggested by one disgruntled ex-student of some abusive program somewhere, (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/pathology.htm)) and not only did I take a long trip down memory lane, I also am now reconsidering what was left of the 'positive' experiences I had at Carlbrook; namely, the workshops. I don't really know what to think now, although that paper certainly lines up with the opinions of most of the shrinks I've talked to since leaving the 'Brook.
Any parent curious about the methods that the school uses in the scant-discussed workshops, as well as any grad who wants to really fuck up their Carlbrook experience and take a nice dose of vitamin C (for cynicism) should read that.
-Sturge
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Why no new postings on Carlbrook - understand there is still a lot of problems with lots of parents upset and kids walking
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I'm a parent. Things are going smoothly. Only know of one kid that walked about six weeks ago and he's back. One kid went home when he turned 18. We like Carlbrook. Anon, could you be stirring the pot?
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On 2006-03-16 23:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So I did a little of the reading suggested by one disgruntled ex-student of some abusive program somewhere, (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/pathology.htm)) and not only did I take a long trip down memory lane, I also am now reconsidering what was left of the 'positive' experiences I had at Carlbrook; namely, the workshops. I don't really know what to think now, although that paper certainly lines up with the opinions of most of the shrinks I've talked to since leaving the 'Brook.
Any parent curious about the methods that the school uses in the scant-discussed workshops, as well as any grad who wants to really fuck up their Carlbrook experience and take a nice dose of vitamin C (for cynicism) should read that.
-Sturge"
Welcome to full consciousness, young man. It can be disappointing sometimes, but it serves you best in the long run to know exactly what was done to you in the name of "therapy."
I've been saying for years that this is a failed treatment modality and that the industry is rife with hucksters, charlatans and snake oil salesmen. When will the quackery cease?
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On 2006-04-04 06:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm a parent. Things are going smoothly. Only know of one kid that walked about six weeks ago and he's back. One kid went home when he turned 18. We like Carlbrook. Anon, could you be stirring the pot?"
Of course you do. You're not the one that has to live there.
I'll be so glad when we get the laws changed so that putting your kid in a private prison is illegal.
I don't know for a fact your kid wasn't court ordered to Carlbrook, but no kid should ever have to be incarcerated by their parents.
Carlbrook may be the equivalent of just a minimum security prison, but it's still effectively a private prison.
Prisoners in minimum security can just walk away if they like. They'll still be fugitives. If caught, they'll either go back to minimum security prison, most likely to serve a longer sentence than before they walked *or* they'll be sent to a higher security or otherwise more unpleasant prison.
Which is exactly analogous to Carlbrook and the other Programs whose cheerleaders allege the Program isn't a prison because the inmates could just walk out if they chose.
Minimum security prison is still prison. The state and federal prison systems understand that. It's only Programmies who lie to themselves (and us) and try to pretend it's not.
I want what you're doing to be illegal. In future, I want parents who succeed at doing what you're doing to go to jail, along with the owners and operators of any private jails who still continue to accept parent-placed kids.
I'm just one person, but I'm also a New York Times bestselling author who reaches an entirely different audience from Fornits or the various survivor organizations. I reach Republican current and former military, and their families, who don't know this is happening in their America and are going to be livid when they find out. I will be reaching out to my readers.
I'm just one person, but if enough individuals reach out and use whatever their own special resources are to get the word to as many people as possible, sooner or later we *will* succeed at getting the laws changed.
What you're doing is wrong. It ought to be illegal, and breaking those laws ought to carry jail time.
The vast majority of voters don't know what you're doing. You're doing it under their radar. When we get enough awareness among those voters to change the law, I hope you have to live with the scorn of the rest of society for doing this if you keep stubbornly insisting you've done nothing wrong at all and that you continue to be happy with doing this horrible thing.
It's one thing for the former program parents that have remorse. The ones that have no remorse for what they did or are doing are another thing altogether.
Most of society, if they knew what you are doing, would see it as monstrous. Know that.
I hope some day you will be able to see that it was monstrous, too, and that you'll at least be sorry for what you did.
Julie
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Just what I thought...stirring the pot so that Julie could put on her Birkenstocks and start running her mouth. New York Times Best Selling Author?? Hard to believe. Does that make you an expert. Bill O'Reilly is a best selling author, too.
By the way, Carlbrook doesn't take ANY court ordered kids and kids, especially those over 18, must agree with the decision to be there.
Julie, why don't you continue to stir up the other threads as an anon so you can write and write and write...
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On 2006-04-04 11:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just what I thought...stirring the pot so that Julie could put on her Birkenstocks and start running her mouth. New York Times Best Selling Author?? Hard to believe. Does that make you an expert. Bill O'Reilly is a best selling author, too.
By the way, Carlbrook doesn't take ANY court ordered kids and kids, especially those over 18, must agree with the decision to be there.
Julie, why don't you continue to stir up the other threads as an anon so you can write and write and write...
"
Would you kindly enlighten us on what the experts do say about Carlbrook's program and it's success rate?
If we're not taking people's word for this information, surely you have copious documentation based on painstaking research into the subjects at Carlbrook, right?
Please cite any clinical research studies that have been conducted and the statistical analysis of their results.
Thanks.
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stir...stir..stir..
I don't have clinical research, I don't have to, only a son that likes the program way better than the snotty private school environment he was in before. THAT was abusive.
Would Julie like to have parents arrested for sending kids to schools in their own neighborhood that perhaps the child doesn't fit well with?
What about Catholic Schools? Are you taking on Catholic education next, Julie?
Give me a break.
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How is asking for scientific evidence of efficacy stirring? I don't get that.
You say you won't take someone's word for things, but you flippantly advise that everyone else just take your word for it that Carlbrook works. Well, I'm sorry, but that just doesn't float.
Why is it that the BM industry is the only treatment modality that refuses to do efficacy research? The short answer is that they already know it doesn't work, so why cut into revenue by documenting it?
If your only contingency is that your kid likes it, why not let him choose wherever he wants to go? I'd bet dollars to doughnuts it wouldn't be Carlbrook.
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On 2006-04-03 21:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why no new postings on Carlbrook - understand there is still a lot of problems with lots of parents upset and kids walking"
This was the question and I answered it. I'm a parent and I'm not upset. It's hard for any of you to understand, obviously, but my kid likes Carlbrook better than the previous schools he had been to and yes, had other options (including staying home) and CHOSE it. He repeated some classes, got his GPA up, had a wonderful therapist and is going to his first choice college next year. I know that some of his friends are not "happy" there but he's had a good, challenging, rewarding time.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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"I don't have clinical research, I don't have to..."
The scary part is that these parents - not just this one in particular, but all program parents - say this routinely. It is the standard response when questions are asked about recidivism, long-term effects, efficacy and safety.
To me it is particularly astounding that these parents will wontonly send their kids to these places without regard to the fact that there is not a single, solitary shred of evidence (besides anecdotal) that shows that these programs are capable of helping any kids at all, but have been proven through clinical research to be ineffective at best and harmful at worst.
In what kind of esteem do they hold their children? I often wonder.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-04 14:47 ]
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It's astounding to me that you could make the arrogant assumption that we (some parents NOT all) haven't done our research and don't hold our children in high esteem because we don't agree with you. My kid needed less help than most and he wasn't so screwed up and angry that he actually was able to get something from the experience. I looked at a study presented to the three of us when we were trying to make the decision to send our son to Carlbrook. They only have a couple of years of graduates and while they aren't making any promises or guarantees, lots of graduates are still in college, sober and doing well. Certainly not all are. Do I have the figures clutched to my chest the way all of you do? No. Again, I don't have to. I'm not trying to sell the school. We're almost finished and it's been good. Traveling to Carlbrook, missing work, spending holidays in family therapy is not something that parents that don't care do. It's a better program. We all know there are bad ones. We'll never know if doing nothing or doing Carlbrook was the right thing to do. But, for now, it doesn't feel like a waste at all.
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We'll never know if doing nothing or doing Carlbrook was the right thing to do.
You would if you did the research you said you did.
I just don't believe you when you say you did your research, simply because there is no data that supports your conclusion. You can frame it up however you want to so you can feel better about it, but you can't change the facts.
There is no data to support your conclusion, therefore your conclusion was based on either the word of a salesman/"salesparent" or your own feelings, not research or data.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-05 10:11 ]
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Who says I feel bad? I feel good about it. I'm happy it's almost over so I can see him more but hey, he feels good, we all feel good. If you are going to say we drank the Kool-Aid, that's fine. It's better than cocaine.
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No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Of course a happy and healthy child is the end result ALL of us want.
Don't confuse attacking your logic or your argument with attacking you as a person. I know it's hard to separate in an emotionally-charged debate, but you will need to be able to do this.
My point all along has been that you placed your kid there based on absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Carlbrook is able to help him. That still stands. No matter what way you spin it, the clinical research shows that this type of program is ineffective at best and damaging at worst.
This is why I call all of these programs "faith-based." One must have faith that they work, because the evidence strongly states that they don't.
I just get awfully tired of the Bush-like spin you folks put on these programs. "Don't believe science. Don't believe your own eyes. Believe me." I can't do that.
I'm sorry and disappointed that many of you have the ability to do just that.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-05 06:45 ]
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On 2006-04-04 11:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"stir...stir..stir..
I don't have clinical research, I don't have to, only a son that likes the program way better than the snotty private school environment he was in before. THAT was abusive.
Would Julie like to have parents arrested for sending kids to schools in their own neighborhood that perhaps the child doesn't fit well with?
What about Catholic Schools? Are you taking on Catholic education next, Julie?
Give me a break.
"
Personally?
A whole lot of Fornits people disagree with me, because they have a higher mistrust of certain aspects of government, but I want something like the FDA for any facility that claims to treat mentally ill students on site.
I want the practitioners licensed, I want professional standards specified and enforced (including therapist/patient confidentiality), and I want proof that a given therapy is safe and effective before it is applied to human beings.
The latter, except in the case of experimental trials.
I want the first human trials of experimental therapies for teens to be on consenting adults in the 18-young twenties age range.
For pre-adolescent pediatric experimental therapies, I want human subjects to be only those for whom other therapies have been ineffective.
I want parents to have to give informed consent for their child to participate in experimental trials, and I want the parameters, including time period, of the experiments to be defined in advance.
I want therapies demonstrated to be unsafe or ineffective to be ineligible for future approval for experimental trials so the "experimental" designation cannot be abused.
In short, I want *ethical* treatment.
I want it to be as illegal to use level-system behavior mod. and LGATs on children as it would be to use Lydia Pinkham's on them as a treatment for cancer.
I want an end to the snake oil salesmen and the medicine shows in pediatric and adolescent psychiatry.
I want it to be illegal for parents or anyone else to stop or censor the mail of a child living away from home, except in the very limited cases where an adult could legally have his mail stopped. While the child is placed away from home, in a facility or wilderness program, free speech rights should inhere in the child, not in the parents on the child's behalf.
I want it to be illegal for parents or guardians to transport a child across state lines from his home for the purpose of enrollment in a therapeutic program without the review of a family court judge.
I want it to be illegal for parents or guardians to transport a child who is a US citizen out of the US against the child's will. I want the travel entity acting as a carrier for the child to be required to obtain a notorized affidavit of the child's uncoerced consent to leaving the US and file it with the State Department for inclusion in the child's State Department file. (State already keeps those files whenever a citizen travels to certain countries.) I want the informed consent to be read aloud to the child to ensure the child understands and doesn't just skim over the form, and to include notifying the child that the child has the right to request he be picked up by child protective services and provisions made for him to remain in the US, instead of exiting the US. I want it to include informing the child that no adult may retaliate against him for refusing to leave the US.
It would improve two problems---the other of which is a foreign parent in a divorce kidnapping the kid out of the US in violation of custody orders.
I want no more snake oil.
I want quality, ethical treatment for mentally ill minors.
Catholic schools don't claim to provide residential treatment for mentally ill children.
Julie
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On 2006-04-04 11:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just what I thought...stirring the pot so that Julie could put on her Birkenstocks and start running her mouth. New York Times Best Selling Author?? Hard to believe. Does that make you an expert. Bill O'Reilly is a best selling author, too.
By the way, Carlbrook doesn't take ANY court ordered kids and kids, especially those over 18, must agree with the decision to be there.
Julie, why don't you continue to stir up the other threads as an anon so you can write and write and write...
"
OMG. Birkenstocks? That's too funny. I'm a conservative Republican. I'm one of those eeeeviiillll Bush supporters.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Too funny.
NYT? _Cally's War_, John Ringo and Julie Cochrane.
(Cally's War hit 31 on the NYT hardcover fiction list in October 2004. It's something of a big deal in the genre because science fiction novels rarely make the list at all.)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/141652 ... oding=UTF8 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/141652052X/sr=8-1/qid=1144257101/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8263794-1211318?%5Fencoding=UTF8)
As I said, a sequel and my first solo novel are under contract with Baen Books.
Ginger can verify that I sign my posts. I think I posted a single truly anon post months ago, in a medication pro or con thread.
Birkenstocks. Too damned funny.
No, what makes me an *advocate* is that I have bipolar disorder (type II) with pediatric onset, although it wasn't diagnosed until later. When I was a kid, the psychiatric profession believed, erroneously, that kids couldn't get it. My young daughter also has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Since it's genetic, many of my family members also have mental illnesses, many first manifesting when they're kids.
My entire family has a vested interest in psychiatric snake oil being illegal. We have a vested interest in getting the same kind of federal consumer protections the FDA provides for drugs and implants or the USDA provides for meat.
Mentally ill people have a right to safe, effective, confidential treatment---no matter what age they are.
Parents have no right to waive their kids' right to safe and effective treatment.
What makes me an educated advocate is that I have a BS in Psychology from Georgia Tech and have kept up with the portions of my field that relate to the particular illnesses my family is riddled with.
Writing science fiction is just my job, but it does give me access to a substantial audience.
Julie
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Julie,
My kid is not mentally ill. Maybe that's a reason he's done well there. I don't think Carlbrook takes seriously mentally ill kids. My kid is 18 and has chosen to stay and finish the program. He could have come home without repercussions from me because I wasn't 100% sold on the program, my ex was. All I can say is he's not being held against his will, chose to go there and will be home very soon. Is it possible that it may have been a good thing for this boy? He seems to think so. He's actually proud of himself. I'll know more this time next year.
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My kid is not mentally ill.
Why on earth did you send him to a residential treatment center? :???:
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After visiting about 20 schools all over the country I had a definite list of places I would NEVER let him go to. I looked at traditional boarding schools that didn't have enough- or any-therapy components. I felt Carlbrook was the happy medium. My son's psychiatrist recommended it. My son is not on any medications. My ex- who has control of the situation- would have picked a much harsher environment (possibly why we cannot be married.) The combined therapy and good enough academics made it the best choice. I was scared to death but as I said earlier, it helped our son. I was proven (at least at this point) wrong. I'm VERY happy to admit that.
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You physically visited 20 schools all over the country? That's alot of financial expense. Which others did you consider?
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I looked at traditional boarding schools that didn't have enough- or any-therapy components
I don't get it. Your son is not mentally ill, but requires residential placement?
Why didn't he just go to a pshrink near home and go to school like normal kids do?
What was his need for a residential treatment placement?
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Wait a minute...are you baiting me for debate? He needed some therapy but not a lock down. He's learned to solve his problems without turning to drugs. He was never addicted but was heading in that direction. His psychiatrist likes the program and likes it because it has a more traditional boarding school feel and approach. Yes, there's therapy and yes, he's not allowed to come home during regular holiday times to find his old crowd. But he made the best of a bad situation and, if you actually mean what you say, I know you are happy for him.
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Wait a minute...are you baiting me for debate?
No. I'm trying to understand why a normal, healthy kid would have been sent to a residential treatment center.
You see, for therapy to be effective at all, it needs to be delivered under the least restrictive conditions possible. It sounds to me like there really is no reason to send a kid like yours to a residential treatment center.
Yes, there's therapy and yes, he's not allowed to come home during regular holiday times to find his old crowd.
So, when he does come home, are you going to ship out the rest of the crowd so he won't be around them? To think that separating him from his friends is going to solve any problems is a bit Pollyanna, don't you think? Obviously, if there's a drug problem it is your kid's problem, not he environment's.
There's an old saying in substance abuse treatment: "Wherever you go, there you are."
Nobody can walk away from their problems. They're internal. Without treatment (Carlbrook has no licensed ASAT counselor and specifically states they don't treat addiction), guess what? The problem remains. This is why "TBS's" enjoy a 75% recidivism rate (which is, by the way, 25% lower than if left to chance - the "do nothing" option).
But he made the best of a bad situation and, if you actually mean what you say, I know you are happy for him.
Of course I am. I am also scared for him. When he gets home, all the same problems will be waiting for him.
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This becomes the problem. They show the research and it looks good because your not trained to ask the right questions about the research. This is what makes trying to choose one of these places dangerous.
While doing my reasearch I came across a sight by a Dr. Connor. He stated emphatically that wilderness therapy works! He stated it like it was a consensus. Furthermore he was running a non profit institute, The Mentor Institute. But when you actually looked at the research it was laughable. The nonprofit was just a cover to legitamize industry marketing. Even their own spokesperson Dr. Behrens,admits that is a dearth of outcome research. There is nothing using another therapuetic modality as a control group. If the treatment works, why after decades, is their no evidence? Believe me, it is not that hard to come up with a decent research design. I'll bet they didn't mention anything about the surgeon general's report which concluded that based on the current evidence, residential treatment wasn't effective. If your child wasn't that screwed up why not try family therapy? Did you get an indepenedent psyc evaluation which recommended this? For the money you are paying to send him away you could hire his favorite counselor there to be your childs full time companion, plus a full time teacher. Or hire a full time pschologist. Or a full time MSW plus plenty of tutoring. Help him discover his inner child or other disguarded new age theories while you work on your communication skills with him at home.
With teen agers the pre-frontal cortex, the part of the brain that governs impulse control is still inmature. It won't be fully developed unil the early to mid twenties. When an artificial environment is used to control their physical environment and psychological developement, they lose the benefits of the natural maturation proccess. They feel more angry depressed and confused when they find out that there is a disconnect between the milieu they were in and pragmatic application.These evironments don't help them internalize controls but usually retards them. In short it doesn't work for them because they been taught a system of relating to the world which does not account for the uniquness of their individuality. Their jouney through life has been hijacked by pirates.
What these schools do is run a very sophisticated con game. They pass off satisfaction surveys and parent testimonials as evidence of methodological correctness. They use behavior questionairs and sell them as diagnostic tools. These behavior surveys are nothing more than a cruel form of advertisement. They are fishing for a certain type of kid. They are looking for the pain the ass, inmature, drug abusing, minor anger management types. The type of kid who can be easily treated in a community setting. The prey on gullable parents unfamiliar with mental health research and protocal. Their favorite targets are parents unfamiliar with normative teen behavior. When ,in fact, most of this teenage bullshit disappears with age as longistudinal studies suggest. Normal life situations, college, girlfreinds, moving out of the family system in a normal way, jobs, the birth of their own children, more experience in making choices, brain development, heavily conspire to bring sanity. The top dawg of the child world will soon be the bottom dawg of the adult world. And with that a whole new set of adaptive behaviours.
These TBS's are absolutely seriously damaging for a whole host of conditions they claim to treat. These include depression, ADD/HD, Mental illnesses that require psychiatric supervision and medication. And although most of the staffs are well intentioned, they are undereducated, and undertrained. Even the staff with masters levels (from real universities) are unexperienced with other modalities of treatment and buy into the program as a result of ignorance.
Before you decide to keep your kid at Carlbrook do the proper due diligance and get an opinion from a competent independent mental health professionals who have examined your child. Let them interpret for you evidence.
-
He's a strong kid and I'm not worried. You don't know any of us. He wanted to get away from the drugs and that's why he, yes he, chose Carlbrook. It's easy to get drugs at traditional boarding schools. I hope he will be fine. But, if he starts snorting coke again you'll be the first to know so that i can brighten your day.
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Before you decide to keep your kid at Carlbrook do the proper due diligance and get an opinion from a competent independent mental health professionals who have examined your child. Let them interpret for you evidence.
"
That is who sent us there. An established psychiatrist from a major NE University. He also had independent testing. Lots and lots of it. Educational and Psychological testing. They found no evidence of mental illness. I trusted those professionals. My kid will be home very soon. If he comes home worse than I sent him I'll be beating this drum with you. Right now I have no reason but to rejoice.
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It's easy to get drugs at traditional boarding schools.
It's also very easy to get drugs (and make new connections for when you get out) in places where active, untreated drug addicts are warehoused, like Carlbrook.
The place where I used to work, Hidden Lake Academy, has quite the drug culture. The drugs are readily available from students who sneak them in and staff members who are willing to trade clothes or favors for drugs.
Again, what is going to happen when you bring the same untreated drug user into the same drug-filled environment? It just doesn't add up.
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He also had independent testing. Lots and lots of it. Educational and Psychological testing. They found no evidence of mental illness. I trusted those professionals.
Well, your trust is misplaced. Any mental health professional that would reccommend a residential placement for a kid with no psychiatric issues should have his license revoked.
That is patently INSANE.
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Is is a possibility that Carlbrook might be a different kind of school? There are varying degrees of residential placement. I know kids that went to HLA and I would never send my son there. I am of the opinion that Carlbrook is better. By the way, why aren't you out there counseling parents to do the right thing? I listened to lots of differing opinions but none as biased as yours. All kids aren't alike and all schools aren't alike. I'll be sure to let the psychiatrist that likes and respects Carlbrook know that you think he's insane. He'll get a laugh out of that.
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I have to tell you, if you're telling the truth, your psychiatrist should be out of business with a revoked license.
ANY practitioner who would recommend residential placement in the absence of psychopathology should be immediately shut down.
I must say that your opinion of proper mental health care carries little weight. You seem not to understand how it works or even what it is. I don't hold that against you - how are you to know without an education? But your psychiatrist should know better and is a quack, period.
And, no, Carlbrook is not a different kind of "school." It is an unlicensed residential treatment center with an unaccredited academic program. It is also run by a man who was at CEDU, a confirmedly abusive, since shut down facility that was closed due to child abuse. It's just more of the same. Same people, same model, new location.
If you actually did any of the research you claimed to have done, you would know all of this already. If you knew all of this already and still sent your kid, well, that says a lot about you.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-05 12:52 ]
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On 2006-04-05 11:14:00, Deborah wrote:
"You physically visited 20 schools all over the country? That's alot of financial expense. Which others did you consider?"
Sorry, just saw this. My ex and I split it up. I looked at:
Montana Academy
Oakley
Academy at Swift River
HLA
Three Springs
John Dewey
Christ School in NC
St. Andrews in TN
Camden Military Academy in SC
and
Carlbrook
My ex looked at more religious schools that I was against. He also looked at schools that were more like boot camps. He also looked into some overseas programs that I was against as well.
If I didn't do the traveling, the decision would have been totally out of my control. In the end we all chose Carlbrook and fortunately Carlbrook took him.
-
Well, your trust is misplaced. Any mental health professional that would reccommend a residential placement for a kid with no psychiatric issues should have his license revoked.
That is patently INSANE.
"
It's obvious that I can't "win" this argument because after reading through all of the threads, I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't in your eyes. Carlbrook is NOT a place for mentally ill kids. I don't think they even take bipolar kids. That is why we chose it. It's a middle ground school. You can't simply lump all of these schools together. Just because some of the founders were at the CEDU schools previously does not mean they do it all the same way. You worked at HLA. If you were to start a school- and do it right-knowing what was bad about HLA, wouldn't it make sense that you would improve on things? But, maybe I'm wrong- Just the idea that you took a job at HLA makes me suspect of you. That place gave me the ever-living creeps! Why did you work there? And, what in the hell are you doing now?
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ANY practitioner who would recommend residential placement in the absence of psychopathology should be immediately shut down.
Wait, are you actually saying that kids with pychopathology should be at one of these schools?? You are contradicting yourself.
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On 2006-04-05 12:51:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Grant Price runs Carlbrook and he's never been affiliated with a CEDU school. I guess you are referring to Tim Brace. He does not run the school and he's been terrific with my kid. It's amazing how much you know and don't know.
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Before anybody attacks me, I know, I don't know how to post very well. I'll stop with the quoting until I figure it out.
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Before anybody attacks me, I know, I don't know how to post very well. I'll stop with the quoting until I figure it out.
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Shit. It only get worse :lol:
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Just the idea that you took a job at HLA makes me suspect of you. That place gave me the ever-living creeps! Why did you work there? And, what in the hell are you doing now?
I was one of the first five people hired there. It was supposed to be a therapeutic boarding school - at the time a novel idea.
As soon as I saw what was going on there, I made my concerns known to the owner. He did nothing. Furthermore, he told me he would do nothing in the future. Our "counseling director" was a phony doctor (had a fake degree) and the owner knew it and kept him on staff.
I quit. Now I tell everyone who will listen what a scam these places are.
I'm currently an executive at a large technology company. I hold an MSW and an MBA and will soon have a PhD in economics.
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Previous post is mine... Forgot to log in.
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Do you post anonomously too? Interesting that you are posting all over Fornits and you log in and out. Sounds fishy to me. Are you talking to yourself?
I have the day off today. How do you have time to do all of the things you say you do and rant and rave all over these threads on a daily basis?
I also have an MSW (from the 70's) and a more recent MBA.
Blogging can be addictive. Be careful.
-
On 2006-04-05 13:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-05 12:51:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Grant Price runs Carlbrook and he's never been affiliated with a CEDU school. I guess you are referring to Tim Brace. He does not run the school and he's been terrific with my kid. It's amazing how much you know and don't know.
"
From Carlbrook's website:
"Tim Brace, B.A., M.C.
Dean of Students
Mr. Brace has truly inspired a generation of students through his vision, innovation and educational leadership. During his distinguished career over the past 25 years, he has served as Headmaster or Executive Director at several secondary boarding schools, including Mt. Bachelor Academy in Oregon and the Academy at Swift River in Massachusetts. With a wealth of knowledge and experience in working with young people and their families that is virtually unmatched, Mr. Brace holds a Bachelor of Arts from the United States Naval Academy and a Master of Counseling from Arizona State University."
It sure sounds like a powerful position there. Are you saying he's more like the mailroom clerk or something?
Notice how his credentials/work history don't show that he worked at CEDU. Gets ya to wondering, doesn't it?
As far as Grant Price goes, all I have to know about him is that he hires proven child abusers, puts them in charge of children and covers up their past abusive history, even going so far as to omit over a decade of someone's career experience to hide their sordid past.
This guy is suspect from that perspective before we even get into the facts that he runs an unlicensed treatment center and offers unaccredited schooling. Those three facts are enough to cast serious doubt on this guy's character.
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The fact that you worked at HLA puts your doubt into character.
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Your character into doubt. :lol:
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On 2006-04-05 13:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
ANY practitioner who would recommend residential placement in the absence of psychopathology should be immediately shut down.
Wait, are you actually saying that kids with pychopathology should be at one of these schools?? You are contradicting yourself. "
OK, I see you have just about no understanding of logic or the English language either. I'm willing to accept that you don't have an education in this area either and will offer you an expedient primer on the subjects at hand.
Let me reiterate:
ANY practitioner who would recommend residential placement in the absence of psychopathology should be immediately shut down.
One, this statement can be verified as true by any licensed professional. It is basic, common knowledge in the treatment business. Residential placement is warranted only when there is severe pathology present and the patient is dangerous to self or others (less than one percent of all diagnosed patients).
Two, this statement makes absolutely no reference to any TBS, nor does it endorse patronage of one in any way, shape or form.
In my opinion, no child should ever be sent to any one of these "schools" under any circumstances for the following reasons:
One, people who have tested negative for any type of psychopathology should not be in any treatment other than voluntary outpatient visits with a therapist should they (the client) see fit or feel it is necessary or helpful and any reputable treatment center would deny admission and state that treatment there would be unnecessary.
Two, treatment must be voluntary. There is no such thing as "forced treatment."
Three, there is not one single, solitary shred of clinical evidence that shows these programs work at all for anyone or anything.
Four, there are extensive clinical research studies that show these programs to be harmful, especially to the developing mind.
Five, nearly all of these private treatment centers are unlicensed and employ staff that have no credentials or licenses to practice.
Six, there is absolutely no regulation whatsoever of their well-documented abusive and harmful treatment of children.
Seven, if a child has mental illness of sufficient gravity to require inpatient treatment, these facilities are woefully inadequate to cope with them.
Eight, they employ LGAT seminars which have been proven beyond doubt to cause mental stress and harm to their participants.
Nine, behavior modification as practiced by these treatment centers does not work and is based almost entirely on punishment.
Ten, inadequate attention is given to family dynamics and no Functional Family Therapy is provided.
Eleven, outpatient treatment, in combination with FFT, in the child's community is shown to be the single most effective method to treat all types of adolescent issues (as long as they don't require inpatient treatment - again less than one percent of mentally ill people).
I could go on if you like, but let's suffice it to say that I am educated professional in this arena and my opinions are anchored solidly in fact and represent the mainstream thinking in my discipline.
So, feel free to engage strawman and ad hominem fallacies along with some hyperbole, but it will not change the unmistakeable fact that what you say doesn't accurately (or even remotely) approximate my position or thinking on this matter.
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On 2006-04-05 14:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The fact that you worked at HLA puts your doubt into character."
I think I explained this adquately before. I was sold a bill of goods about the facility and as soon as I saw how it was run I left and reported what I knew to the authorities.
I'm curious now too why you are fine with Tim Brace? This man reportedly personally abused scores children in his care for decades - their stories are published in books and lawsuit transcripts. This is well documented.
I guess because you agree with Carlbrook's program, all sins are forgiven. That casts serious doubt on your character, madam.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer
-
OK, I've finally had enough. Maybe, just maybe, the treatment worked for my son because he went VOLUNTARILY. I've said that over and over. I could have stopped the placement but he CHOSE it over the other programs I listed earlier. Some of the kids HATE it there and are doing poorly, just like a segment of any school population. Some people are just miserable all the time and continue to blame anything and anybody for their unhappiness. I'm not going to borrow trouble. He's fine, looking forward to graduation and happy to have been accepted to a great school with an even greater scholarship that will offset our tuition at Carlbrook. Sorry, I can't say anything bad about the place...except...the food used to suck but it's better now.
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I haven't found any abuse allegations concerning Tim Brace anywhere except for on this site. I think people get put in jail for those kinds of crimes. I doubt he could have hidden from the legal system this long especially since most program parents have enough money to bury him if any of the allegations are indeed true. You may be getting slanderous here. You're a total jackass if you don't think I didn't have EVERY person on the Board of Regents investigated before I sent my son there. Has Tim ever been convicted, served time?
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You say this:
Maybe, just maybe, the treatment worked for my son because he went VOLUNTARILY.
Then you say this:
My ex looked at more religious schools that I was against. He also looked at schools that were more like boot camps. He also looked into some overseas programs that I was against as well.
If I didn't do the traveling, the decision would have been totally out of my control. In the end we all chose Carlbrook and fortunately Carlbrook took him.
How can you say he went "voluntarily" when his other choices would have been boot camp or a religious treatment center? That's called "coerced," not "voluntary."
And the fact remains that you and your husband were going to send your kid away to a residential treatment center regardless of the fact that you say he was extensively tested and had no mental issues whatsover. That's sick - and sickening.
At this point in your rambling, contradictory, factually bereft statements it has really become more of a referendom on your poor parenting as much as the unscrupulous treatment center business.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-05 15:47 ]
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That's BS. Read my list. I was hoping for Christ School or St. Andrews. These are both traditional boarding schools. He wanted to go to Carlbrook. If he didn't want to go there, he would not be there.
Watch the slander. You better be dead ass accurate before you make any more allegations.
Amazing, my kid does well there and you attack me. If and when he screws up again I will gladly let you know and make your day.
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He wanted to go to Carlbrook. If he didn't want to go there, he would not be there.
No, he wouldn't. He'd be in a bootcamp or sent overseas like you said before.
If that was my choice, I'd "choose" Carlbrook, too.
Watch the slander. You better be dead ass accurate before you make any more allegations.
This is a typical reaction from folks like you. You have no ability to uphold your end of the argument, you make yourself look really bad and completely uneducated, then you threaten legal action. You're not the first, and you're not going to be the last.
All I can say is do what you feel you have to do, but threatening me is not going to have the desired effect I'm afraid. I have dealt with people just like you before (obstreperous blowhard bullies) and you, collectively and individually, don't frighten me in the least.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer<[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-05 15:48 ]
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On 2006-04-05 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's BS. Read my list. I was hoping for Christ School or St. Andrews. These are both traditional boarding schools. He wanted to go to Carlbrook. If he didn't want to go there, he would not be there.
Watch the slander. You better be dead ass accurate before you make any more allegations.
Amazing, my kid does well there and you attack me. If and when he screws up again I will gladly let you know and make your day."
Whatever, you're just another parent somehow justifying sending your kid away. I guess you think complete strangers have a better idea of what your childrens needs are then you, or your husband. From what you're saying, your kid thinks they are better at giving guidance, structure, and love, and attention then you.
How sad is that?
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Watch the slander. You better be dead ass accurate before you make any more allegations.
Or what? :lol:
-
Tim Brace
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Like I said, NOTHING but crap from Fornits. I want to see actual court orders or complaints. You ask for statistics everyday from parents. I want to see the actual court proceedings against Tim.
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Easy tiger!
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In any High School in America, the best teachers, the ones that expect the most, are hated by some and loved by others. Can't you admit that?
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My son's coach at a "regular" High School was FAR more abusive than Tim Brace could ever think of being. My son thinks Tim is great.
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CMM, were you born in 1989?
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On 2006-04-05 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's BS. Read my list. I was hoping for Christ School or St. Andrews. These are both traditional boarding schools. He wanted to go to Carlbrook. If he didn't want to go there, he would not be there.
Watch the slander. You better be dead ass accurate before you make any more allegations.
Amazing, my kid does well there and you attack me. If and when he screws up again I will gladly let you know and make your day."
Not one thing she said was legally actionable.
I can see how someone as thin skinned as you apparently are would have problems getting along with one or more people under the same roof.
I hope your kid does end up getting over his various and assorted bad experiences and building a good adult life for himself.
Julie
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No, that is when I landed at Cross Creek Manor in La Verkin, Utah.
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Julie,
I have more than one kid, in fact, I have four kids, a second husband, step children and two step grandchildren. I get along fine with everyone under my roof. I even get along with my son and can't wait for him to get back. My family is not the fiction you write about...I've got one child that chose a different route. I'm not thin skinned. I just can't tolerate BS of this magnitude.
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Is Dysfunction Junction a woman?????????
---and a liar?
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I hope your kid does end up getting over his various and assorted bad experiences and building a good adult life for himself.
Julie"
Thank you. I think he will. He's a wonderful person.
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On 2006-04-05 15:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"<
I'm curious now too why you are fine with Tim Brace? This man reportedly personally abused scores children in his care for decades - their stories are published in books and lawsuit transcripts. This is well documented.
<>
"
Please produce copies of these lawsuit transcripts. I can't find them anywhere.
-
A number of posters have tried to explain that their kids were helped by Carlbrook and had a positive experience. This is not information that is welcomed on this site. Don't bother. Anyone with any real interest in getting facts from Carlbrook parents will go elsewhere for that information.
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Where can I post that?
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On 2006-04-05 19:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Like I said, NOTHING but crap from Fornits. I want to see actual court orders or complaints. You ask for statistics everyday from parents. I want to see the actual court proceedings against Tim. "
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... suit+abuse (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-35,GGLG:en&q=cedu+lawsuit+abuse)
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On 2006-04-05 20:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-05 15:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
<
I'm curious now too why you are fine with Tim Brace? This man reportedly personally abused scores children in his care for decades - their stories are published in books and lawsuit transcripts. This is well documented.
<>
"
Please produce copies of these lawsuit transcripts. I can't find them anywhere."
Then you didn't look.
Paste this into your browser:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... suit+abuse (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-35,GGLG:en&q=cedu+lawsuit+abuse)
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On 2006-04-05 15:19:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"You say this:
Maybe, just maybe, the treatment worked for my son because he went VOLUNTARILY.
Then you say this:
My ex looked at more religious schools that I was against. He also looked at schools that were more like boot camps. He also looked into some overseas programs that I was against as well.
If I didn't do the traveling, the decision would have been totally out of my control. In the end we all chose Carlbrook and fortunately Carlbrook took him.
How can you say he went "voluntarily" when his other choices would have been boot camp or a religious treatment center? That's called "coerced," not "voluntary."
And the fact remains that you and your husband were going to send your kid away to a residential treatment center regardless of the fact that you say he was extensively tested and had no mental issues whatsover. That's sick - and sickening.
At this point in your rambling, contradictory, factually bereft statements it has really become more of a referendom on your poor parenting as much as the unscrupulous treatment center business.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-05 15:47 ]"
Amazing. These parents are such complete failures and losers that they send their kid away even though the kid is completely normal - n mental health problems.
Maybe I can interest this idiot in some unnecessary surgery?
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There is no good behavior modification school. If you find one were they don?t torture the children, even if they tried to treat the children well. The child will feel abandoned, because they are abandoned. To send a child away is saying, let some one else take my responsibility I don?t have the time, or I just don?t love them enough to deal with there problems. So please tell me how strangers who don?t even know your child, could possibly give them the love and guidance they deserve?
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There is no good behavior modification school.
True. Not only is there no such thing as a "good" one, there are actually no BM schools at all.
Let me explain. A school is a place where children (or others, but in our case, children) are taught academia.
The places discussed here are not schools at all. They are Behavior Modification Centers, like Carlbrook.
Carlbrook is not a school. It's primary focus is not education. This is easily provable by the irrefutable fact that they are unaccredited. They are legally barred from issuing diplomas. What kind of school can't issue a diploma?
So, what we have in the case of Carlbrook, ASR, HLA, AIR etc. are behavior modification programs marketing and passing themselves off as "schools," which they are not.
The entire concept of a "behavior modification school" is a fallacy.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-07 07:22 ]
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This has been explained to you before, dimwit. Carlbrook can legally issue diplomas and is in the middle of the accreditation process. The graduates are going to excellent colleges. The teachers are degreed and are quite good. The classes are conducted like in any other school. AP classes are offered. Language classes are offered.
The therapeutic staff is excellent.
We GET that you don't think it is worth much. Since you have no idea what you are talking about, why don't you give it a rest?
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This has been explained to you before, dimwit. Carlbrook can legally issue diplomas and is in the middle of the accreditation process.
I'm a dimwit? You will need to read and understand Virginia law. Carlbrook is legally barred from issuing state (i.e. accredited) diplomas, period.
Sure, they can issue you a diploma with their name on it, they just can't say it's vailid. Hell, pay me $7500.00 a month and I'll write you all the diplomas you want. They'll be worthless, but you folks don't care about that, you just pay and pay and pay.
"In the middle of accreditation" is a coy way of saying "unaccredited." If I were halfway through medical school, would you refer to me as "doctor"? No, of course not.
Carlbrook has been "working on accreditation" for years. The simple fact of the matter is they cannot or will not meet the minimum standards required by the state of Virginia. Why they don't is immaterial, but the fact remains that they don't.
Maybe you're a Carlbrook "grad" and that's why you don't understand the law or the process. That unaccredited education is doing well for you. :lol:
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-07 07:50 ]
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Too bad you don't have a Carlbrook diploma. You might have more to do than display your anger on an internet forum day in and day out.
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On 2006-04-07 09:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Too bad you don't have a Carlbrook diploma. You might have more to do than display your anger on an internet forum day in and day out."
So how long has Carlbrook been "in the process of getting accredited"?
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On 2006-04-07 09:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Too bad you don't have a Carlbrook diploma. You might have more to do than display your anger on an internet forum day in and day out."
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Why do you people always project your anger on me? I'm fine. I don't have screwed up kids that I have to incarcerate for $7500.00/mo and I haven't been scammed out of my life savings.
I'm not angry, I'm informative! :lol:
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On 2006-04-07 09:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 09:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Too bad you don't have a Carlbrook diploma. You might have more to do than display your anger on an internet forum day in and day out."
So how long has Carlbrook been "in the process of getting accredited"?"
http://www.sacscasi.org/region/Proceedi ... te_VA.html (http://www.sacscasi.org/region/Proceedings_2003/Proceedings_Candidate_VA.html)
It has only been FOUR YEARS. Give 'em a break! I'm sure it's just some kind of paperwork SNAFU... ::bangin::
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You have raised this ridiculous issue many times before. It is something about which you know nothing. The pending accreditation does not detract from the academic quality of the school, the ability to issue a valid diploma which shows that the student has met the Virginia requirements for high school graduation or the ability of a student to gain admission to college. You don't even NEED a high school diploma- you just need to show that you have completed the requirements for graduation.
I don't understand why you are so impressed with yourself for bringing up this irrelevant issue. Do you not yet GET the fact that the Carlbrook kids are getting a good education and are moving on to other excellent high schools and colleges? You may have a beef with how they handle therapy or discipline, but you really are making a fool of yourself by challenging anything about the academics.
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Why four years "in the process"?
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Sure, they can give out diplomas that say "Carlbrook" on them, they just aren't allowed to say that the diploma is state-issued or that they are accredited.
This makes the diploma worth as much as any business card, newspaper, or home made sign at the ballpark.
The Academy at Ivy Ridge (WWASPS, NY) was issuing phony diplomas like Carlbrook for years before they tripped up and started telling people they were NYS diplomas. The AG immediately suied the hell out of them and they were fined $250,000.00 and ordered to repay $1,000,000.00 in tuition to the victims of their fraud. They were immediately ordered to cease and desist issuing diplomas.
Carlbrook is smart enough not to say that their diplomas are issued by the state. The Carlbrook diploma is as valid as a mail-order degree - worthless.
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Colleges do not believe the diplomas are worthless. You may not agree with the therapy there...so put that aside. The academics are good, better than the school we had our son in before which was a good Independent (NAIS) school. Also, you wouldn't believe the artwork that my kid has done there. There is a committed academic staff that has absolutely nothing to do with the therapeutic portion of the program. I don't care if the diploma is accredited. My son got into 10 very decent colleges and Universities with awarded merit scholarships. Some of the accedited schools in our state are worthless. Accreditation is filled with loads of red tape crap. Maybe Carlbrook would rather focus on the academics and pay those teachers instead of hiring a paper pusher.
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By the way, NAIS (National Association of Independent Schools)require re-accreditation every 5 years. It takes almost that long to get the necessary paperwork in order. Schools sometimes can't get accredited for something as simple as not enough PE classes or improper placement of a play structure. Accreditation is a major problem for ALL small independent schools.
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If they're going to call themselves a school and not an RTC, BM or some other euphemism then they damn well SHOULD be accredited!! If their main focus is on academics and not therapy it would only make sense.
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You obviously know nothing about accreditation.
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On 2006-04-07 10:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If they're going to call themselves a school and not an RTC, BM or some other euphemism then they damn well SHOULD be accredited!! If their main focus is on academics and not therapy it would only make sense."
I agree. Others seem to like to speculate as to why they aren't accredited. There's no good reason.
One of these parents stated that HLA "made them cringe" when they visited, but even HLA is accredited.
There really is no excuse for not being accredited nor is there any excuse for making excuses about it.
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Ok, so then I'm going to open up a school and charge parents an arm and a leg for their kids to attend but I will not under any circumstances bend to the accreditation standards. The curriculum will be drawn up and set by myself. I can call it a school and advertise it as a school and charge tuition for the school and that would be appropriate?
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DJ, what a smoke screen! The requirements for accreditation is Georgia are totally different than in Virginia. Plus HLA has been around long enough to take the necessary steps to become accredited the first time. They have a model in place and an easier State Dept. of Education to work with.
Nobody seems to care if Carlbrook has jumped through the proper bureaucratic hoops to get their accreditation...not the parents, the students or the colleges they go to later.
I don't know much about the treatment of mental health. I believe you know more than me about that. But, I assure you, I know about accreditation and what a big pain in the ass it is. It kind of stinks like FEMA.
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On 2006-04-07 10:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
But, I assure you, I know about accreditation and what a big pain in the ass it is.
Yeah, I bet those pesky FDA standards for meat packing plants is a big pain in the ass too. I bet the regulations that govern true therapeutic centers are a big pain in the ass. And those wonderful colleges that your kid got into, it sure must be difficult to deal with the accreditation process.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Again, I think the point is that if you're going to advertise yourself as a "school", ya might want to think about actually becoming one.
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This poster is correct. Accreditation can be held up because the library isn't enough square feet, or there isn't a locker room for the athletic fields. It means NOTHING except to people like DJ who have nothing else to say.
Check out the admissions to colleges listed on the website AND the incredible merit awards.
I know a kid who got kicked out of a top prep school the week before graduation. He did not get a diploma but he DID graduate since he fulfilled the requirements. The school wouldn't give him his diploma until he completed a year of college. He went off to college- the absence of the diploma didn't matter at all.
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If Carlbook is "in the process", they obviously believe it to be important. Why FOUR YEARS???????
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On 2006-04-07 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ok, so then I'm going to open up a school and charge parents an arm and a leg for their kids to attend but I will not under any circumstances bend to the accreditation standards. The curriculum will be drawn up and set by myself. I can call it a school and advertise it as a school and charge tuition for the school and that would be appropriate?"
It's legal, and that's the only line they won't (publicly) cross.
Want me to make your diplomas for you? I have some crayons and construction paper that my nephew left at my house. I'll even put some glitter on it!
Yes, HLA has been around a long time and their accreditation is a sham, too. SACS-CASI is in Len's pocket and the four men who do the HLA visits are his personal friends. So, despite the fact that they are not primarily a school, they are accredited as "academics only" which is a huge and obvious bald-faced lie.
And I'm not putting up smoke screens. I don't intend to take the focus off the fact that Carlbrook issues worthless diplomas.
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On 2006-04-07 10:53:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Want me to make your diplomas for you? I have some crayons and construction paper that my nephew left at my house. I'll even put some glitter on it!
You're on! :silly:
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Question for The Who (I think, you are the one w/ the kid who went to Carlbrook, right?).
Is it true that Carlbrook advertises itself as an academics only school?
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On 2006-04-07 10:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If Carlbook is "in the process", they obviously believe it to be important. Why FOUR YEARS???????"
All of these schools do the same thing. They APPLY, but never meet the requirements for accreditation. It's a marketing tool. Their only goal is to appear on the list at the accrediting agency's website so parents can see the name there. Most parents mistakenly believe that because they have applied and are listed on the site, that they are already accredited.
After a certain amount of years (when they're about to be dropped from the list), they reapply.
The accrediting agency allows this because even schools in the "application phase" still have to pay the regular member fees and some extra ones as well. For the accrediting agency it's free money.
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Sometimes it takes that long to hire the amount of faculty it takes to have each and every class the State of Virginia has deemed a requirement. I don't know what their requirements are but in the three or four states that I have worked in, as an administrator, there were more class requiremnts than pupils to fill the classes in any given term. In a rural area, at a small school, it is hard to get that accomplished. It's not a blemish on their academics. The colleges, Universities...and especially the parents that are paying, don't care.
If you want to bash them you might stick to bashing the "program" instead of the fact that they are not academically accredited. It's like cutting off the hand because of a hangnail.
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On 2006-04-07 10:59:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 10:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If Carlbook is "in the process", they obviously believe it to be important. Why FOUR YEARS???????"
All of these schools do the same thing. They APPLY, but never meet the requirements for accreditation. It's a marketing tool. Their only goal is to appear on the list at the accrediting agency's website so parents can see the name there. Most parents mistakenly believe that because they have applied and are listed on the site, that they are already accredited.
After a certain amount of years (when they're about to be dropped from the list), they reapply.
The accrediting agency allows this because even schools in the "application phase" still have to pay the regular member fees and some extra ones as well. For the accrediting agency it's free money.
"
That's what I figured but wanted to see if any supporters of Carlbrook can explain, from their POV, why it would take four years and still not be accredited.
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On 2006-04-07 10:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sometimes it takes that long to hire the amount of faculty it takes to have each and every class the State of Virginia has deemed a requirement. I don't know what their requirements are but in the three or four states that I have worked in, as an administrator, there were more class requiremnts than pupils to fill the classes in any given term. In a rural area, at a small school, it is hard to get that accomplished. It's not a blemish on their academics. The colleges, Universities...and especially the parents that are paying, don't care.
If you want to bash them you might stick to bashing the "program" instead of the fact that they are not academically accredited. It's like cutting off the hand because of a hangnail."
Do they or do they not advertise themselves as an academics only school?
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Of course not. They advertise more than that. You know that.
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On 2006-04-07 11:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Of course not. They advertise more than that. You know that."
Yes, they ADVERTISE as a TBS, but they do business with the state as a "school."
Their treatment program is unlicensed by the state.
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On 2006-04-07 11:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Of course not. They advertise more than that. You know that."
Why would you assume that? I know virtually nothing about Carlbrook.
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On 2006-04-07 11:05:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Their treatment program is unlicensed by the state.
"
Carlbrook supporters...why are they unlicensed?
They advertise as a TC to bring in the desperate parents, but do biz w/ the state as a school so they can get around regs of TCs? Is that fairly accurate?
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They advertise as a TC to bring in the desperate parents, but do biz w/ the state as a school so they can get around regs of TCs? Is that fairly accurate?
Bang-on accurate. That's exactly it.
They are an unlicensed RTC masquerading as an unaccredited boarding school.
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The Who and Carlbrook supporters...why does Carlbrook advertise to you all as "therapeutic" but isn't licensed as such? Does this not concern you?
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They advertise as a boarding school with an emotional growth program. So what? That's exactly what they are. They are not a treatment center. They don't even take kids with serious learning differences. They are very selective in who they will accept.
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On 2006-04-07 11:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"They advertise as a boarding school with an emotional growth program. So what? That's exactly what they are. They are not a treatment center.
So they do not accept kids with drug problems then, correct?
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On 2006-04-07 11:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
They don't even take kids with serious learning differences. They are very selective in who they will accept. "
Who does this selecting? Who decides whether or not a kid has serious problems or not?
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On 2006-04-07 11:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 11:05:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Their treatment program is unlicensed by the state.
"
Carlbrook supporters...why are they unlicensed?
They advertise as a TC to bring in the desperate parents, but do biz w/ the state as a school so they can get around regs of TCs? Is that fairly accurate?"
The biggest fraud going in the industry. They hold themselves above the law.
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I don't believe that's accurate but I'll have to do some research.
However,
there are plenty of people that support Carlbrook. Alternatively, there are families that left the school angry. These parents have the resources, (money and power) to get the place shut down if they had not dotted their "i"s and crossed their "t"s on the TC side. A good 50% of the Carlbrook parent body is comprised of lawyers. When a kid has quit school, and then has a chance to go to class and continue his education, the accreditation of the school's academic program means nothing to those parents. Education is full of bureaucracy. Save the debate for the therapeutics.
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On 2006-04-07 11:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
Save the debate for the therapeutics. "
OK, why are they not licensed as a TC?
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I'll have to find out if 1) that's true and 2) why they aren't. I know more about the academic accreditation mess and was just giving my professional opinion on that.
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On 2006-04-07 11:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'll have to find out if 1) that's true and 2) why they aren't. I know more about the academic accreditation mess and was just giving my professional opinion on that."
Does it not strike you as the least bit odd though that they would advertise as a TBS but not be licensed as either a treatment facility OR a school?
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Not really. Sometimes it takes forever to get everything sorted out. Has Carlbrook been sued for anything since they opened? The amount of requirements to become licensed and accredited is abundant. Their insurance companies alone will police that situation...at least the TBS licensing. The academic accreditation is something completely different. I just called a friend at the Lovett School in Atlanta. The SACS accreditation process takes 7-10 years and is an ongoing process. Carlbrook has not had enough time to become fully accredited yet.
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Ah, they're going for Secondary School status instead of Special Purpose, just like the friends at HLA.
http://www.sacscasi.org/schools/Proceed ... didate.pdf (http://www.sacscasi.org/schools/Proceedings_VA_Candidate.pdf)
Did Buchi/NATSAP work a deal with them to classify all their programs as SSs?
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The school has not been sued. If you read the website, they do not claim to be a treatment center, so no need for licensing. They have an Advisor Program, which is where the counseling and group work comes in. It is made quite clear to parents considering the school exactly what goes on and what the school will deal with and what they will not.
It seems when you run out of things to criticize you turn to the accrediation thing.
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On 2006-04-07 11:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 11:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
They don't even take kids with serious learning differences. They are very selective in who they will accept. "
Who does this selecting? Who decides whether or not a kid has serious problems or not?"
The applicants are required to take a battery of pychological/educational testing by a licensed professional. The Director of Admissions and the Board of Regents (which includes an MD) make the call on admission.
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On 2006-04-07 11:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Ah, they're going for Secondary School status instead of Special Purpose, just like the friends at HLA.
http://www.sacscasi.org/schools/Proceed ... didate.pdf (http://www.sacscasi.org/schools/Proceedings_VA_Candidate.pdf)
Did Buchi/NATSAP work a deal with them to classify all their programs as SSs?"
I didn't say that Carlbrook was going for Secondary School status. I don't know what they've applied for. I was giving an example of how long any accreditation process takes. And, if you think secondary school status is crap, just think how long it would take them to be accredited another, perhaps in your view, a better way. Please don't put words in my mouth.
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On 2006-04-07 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not really. Sometimes it takes forever to get everything sorted out. Has Carlbrook been sued for anything since they opened? The amount of requirements to become licensed and accredited is abundant. Their insurance companies alone will police that situation...at least the TBS licensing. The academic accreditation is something completely different. I just called a friend at the Lovett School in Atlanta. The SACS accreditation process takes 7-10 years and is an ongoing process. Carlbrook has not had enough time to become fully accredited yet."
Lordy, lordy, you people are full of shit- but then, perhaps that what someone else told you...
3.12 Candidates for Accreditation
A school or school district applying for accreditation must first be approved by the State Council;
the Nonpublic and Special Purpose School Council; or within the policies of CASI. A school seeking candidacy must satisfy the following conditions:
1. The head of the school must file a formal application for candidacy along with payment of a non-refundable application fee.
2. The school must host a readiness visit to determine the capacity of the school to achieve
accreditation.
3. The school must be approved by the State Council or designee; Nonpublic and Special Purpose School Council or designee; or within the policies of CASI to proceed as a candidate for accreditation.
4. A school may maintain candidacy for up to three years. The school should complete
requirements for accreditation within three years. SACS CASI may extend the three year
period if the school demonstrates a continued commitment to seeking initial accreditation. [Indefinitely???]
5. During the period of candidacy, the school must take sufficient action to meet the Standards for Accreditation, engage in a satisfactory continuous school improvement process, submit an annual accreditation application, and pay annual dues. [Yes, don't forget those union dues!!]
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On 2006-04-07 11:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 11:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Ah, they're going for Secondary School status instead of Special Purpose, just like the friends at HLA.
http://www.sacscasi.org/schools/Proceed ... didate.pdf (http://www.sacscasi.org/schools/Proceedings_VA_Candidate.pdf)
Did Buchi/NATSAP work a deal with them to classify all their programs as SSs?"
I didn't say that Carlbrook was going for Secondary School status. I don't know what they've applied for. I was giving an example of how long any accreditation process takes. And, if you think secondary school status is crap, just think how long it would take them to be accredited another, perhaps in your view, a better way. Please don't put words in my mouth."
Ooops. I'm really sorry. I misread. So I see they are going for SACS. Well, that solves the academic side for me. They are more a school than a treatment center do I guess they are going that route.
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On 2006-04-07 11:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
5. During the period of candidacy, the school must take sufficient action to meet the Standards for Accreditation, engage in a satisfactory continuous school improvement process, submit an annual accreditation application, and pay annual dues. [Yes, don't forget those union dues!!]"
Are these annual applications available to the public?
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[/quote]
Lordy, lordy, you people are full of shit- but then, perhaps that what someone else told you...
[/quote]
Can you just talk about this without getting nasty?
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Their insurance companies alone will police that situation...at least the TBS licensing.
I wish this were true, but, sadly, it isn't.
There generally isn't anything called "TBS licensing," because there are currently only a couple of states (I think UT and MT - where people who serve in the legislature actually OWN programs) that recognize "TBS" as a category of residential child care.
They must be either academic or a child care facility.
To be a licensed child care facility they must register with the state, follow regulations and employ licensed professionals. Carlbrook does none of those things.
To be registered as a school, by law, they may not provide treatment planning. This is why they always register as a private school and don't tell the state they are a "TBS."
Some of these places just register as private corporations and make no claims to therapy or schooling.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-07 12:37 ]
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How are the Wilderness Programs insured and/or licensed?
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Re Utah:
The new law defines "therapeutic schools" as serving students "who have a history of failing to function at home or public school" and that offer "room and board and specialized structure or treatment related to a disability or emotional development."
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Whitmore%204-29-05.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Whitmore%204-29-05.htm)
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OK, here's the irony. MOST STATES have a category for wilderness programs. They must be licensed by the state and receive yearly inspections to stay current. Ain't that somethin'?
Insurance for all of these places is strictly blanket liability. Most places that I know of carry a minumum of $1 million (bottom of the barrel places like Thayer Learning Center) and most of the expensive programs carry between $10 and $20 million (Like HLA).
They tend to get sued a lot, but settle nearly every case. Seeing one of these places go to trial is incredibly unusual because it opens bigger cans of worms for them (they'd rather pay and have a gag order regarding the settlement).
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On 2006-04-07 12:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 11:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
5. During the period of candidacy, the school must take sufficient action to meet the Standards for Accreditation, engage in a satisfactory continuous school improvement process, submit an annual accreditation application, and pay annual dues. [Yes, don't forget those union dues!!]"
Are these annual applications available to the public?"
Can anyone answer this? If they're not available, is it public info as to whether or not they've at least filed them? Would the whole application file be public record?
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On 2006-04-07 12:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 12:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 11:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
5. During the period of candidacy, the school must take sufficient action to meet the Standards for Accreditation, engage in a satisfactory continuous school improvement process, submit an annual accreditation application, and pay annual dues. [Yes, don't forget those union dues!!]"
Are these annual applications available to the public?"
Can anyone answer this? If they're not available, is it public info as to whether or not they've at least filed them? Would the whole application file be public record?"
call SACS and let us know.
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On 2006-04-07 12:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
call SACS and let us know."
I will if I have to but I figure there's enough industry people here on both sides of the issue that could answer.
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On 2006-04-07 10:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Question for The Who (I think, you are the one w/ the kid who went to Carlbrook, right?).
Is it true that Carlbrook advertises itself as an academics only school?"
No must be someone else. I had a daughter who attended ASR, I really cant answer any questions specific to Carlbrook. Heard it is not a bad place though.
Havent read any posts here so I really cant comment right now.
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On 2006-04-07 13:00:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 10:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Question for The Who (I think, you are the one w/ the kid who went to Carlbrook, right?).
Is it true that Carlbrook advertises itself as an academics only school?"
No must be someone else. I had a daughter who attended ASR, I really cant answer any questions specific to Carlbrook. Heard it is not a bad place though.
Havent read any posts here so I really cant comment right now."
Fair enough. My bad.
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Go to the website and you will see how the school presents itself. http://www.carlbrook.org (http://www.carlbrook.org)
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On 2006-04-07 13:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Go to the website and you will see how the school presents itself. http://www.carlbrook.org (http://www.carlbrook.org)"
I have. I am looking for opinions from those posting here.
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I had a child at Carlbrook. If you look on their website (www.carlbrook.org (http://www.carlbrook.org)) they describe the school as an academically challenging environment with an emotional growth element. That's exactly what they offer.
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But they're licensed for neither, correct?
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Here we go again..............
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yeah, I think it's a completely relevant and incredibly valid point. Bait and switch to get around regulations or licensure issues for both! How convenient!
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They are in the 7-10 year accreditation cycle. I refuse to argue that academic accreditation issue anymore, that's been covered.
Frankly, I could care less about licensing as long as there is no abuse and in the four years of Carlbrook's history there's not been a complaint.
They have a Psychiatrist from Duke University that treats any of the kids needing meds on a private basis. He visits the campus very regularly and is available by phone to the parents. The advisors (therapists)are well trained and were helpful and accountable.
Really, there are some really bad schools out there that deserve to be exposed and shut down. Carlbrook is not one of them.
You ask for personal experience---I've got it but not going to beat a dead horse on this thread.
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On 2006-04-07 13:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
They have a Psychiatrist from Duke University that treats any of the kids needing meds on a private basis. He visits the campus very regularly and is available by phone to the parents.
You sure you want to tout that right now? ::bwahaha::
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I'm not touting anything. It's on the website. I keep reading here that Carlbrook has no professional staff, is unable to help kids, and just because they haven't jumped through bureaucratic hoops in a very short period of time that it is not a good place. I'm just saying, from my expreience, it is.
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Oh, Duke is the closest University to the school and Carlbrook doesn't have a Lacrosse team :smile: .
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On 2006-04-07 13:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm not touting anything. It's on the website. I keep reading here that Carlbrook has no professional staff, is unable to help kids, and just because they haven't jumped through bureaucratic hoops in a very short period of time that it is not a good place. I'm just saying, from my expreience, it is. "
Oh, lighten up. It was a joke. With the scandal going on at Duke I was trying to make a funny. Guess I failed.
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I got it...just not particularly in a light mood at the moment. I enjoyed when I *finally* lightened up. Thanks.
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Usually when I see those little happy face things, emotocons, I immediately assume someone is being an asshole...because that is usually the case.
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One of my gripes about Carlbrook actually had to do with lacrosse. They were so strict about so many things, but the boys were playing lacrosse without any protective gear. Here was a group of kids with very little outlet for aggression and energy, and they let them have sticks and balls with which to beat on each other. There were several injuries.
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Do you know anything about the type of therapy that is provided there?
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Yes, I do. I've made the mistake of saying that my kid loved the workshops and his three advisors during his experience there. I have no desire to debate this subject again. I'm not trained I'm just lucky my kid did well there. No, I don't have any scientific proof just a happy ending.
Do you really want info or are you just setting up a firestorm? I was kind of enjoying this thread today because I wasn't being attacked too much.
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On 2006-04-07 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yes, I do. I've made the mistake of saying that my kid loved the workshops and his three advisors during his experience there. I have no desire to debate this subject again. I'm not trained I'm just lucky my kid did well there. No, I don't have any scientific proof just a happy ending.
Do you really want info or are you just setting up a firestorm? I was kind of enjoying this thread today because I wasn't being attacked too much."
I really want info. I have a feeling you and I will disagree on just about everything, but I'm not into the attacking. I realize that happens here a lot (from people on both sides) but if you just ignore that and respond to people who are being civil you should be fine.
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On 2006-04-07 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yes, I do. I've made the mistake of saying that my kid loved the workshops and his three advisors during his experience there. I have no desire to debate this subject again. I'm not trained I'm just lucky my kid did well there. No, I don't have any scientific proof just a happy ending.
Well if you don't want to debate it then you probably shoudn't say it. If you're going to respond to questions but put qualifications on it (other than not responding to assholes) how can we have any kind of discussion or debate?
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On 2006-04-07 13:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"One of my gripes about Carlbrook actually had to do with lacrosse. They were so strict about so many things, but the boys were playing lacrosse without any protective gear. Here was a group of kids with very little outlet for aggression and energy, and they let them have sticks and balls with which to beat on each other. There were several injuries."
Really. We don't come from an area of the country where Lacrosse is played. My kid never played it there. So, I guess I was wrong with the Lacrosse statement. I guess my kid was doing Pilates...which made us laugh.
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On 2006-04-07 13:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-07 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yes, I do. I've made the mistake of saying that my kid loved the workshops and his three advisors during his experience there. I have no desire to debate this subject again. I'm not trained I'm just lucky my kid did well there. No, I don't have any scientific proof just a happy ending.
Do you really want info or are you just setting up a firestorm? I was kind of enjoying this thread today because I wasn't being attacked too much."
I really want info. I have a feeling you and I will disagree on just about everything, but I'm not into the attacking. I realize that happens here a lot (from people on both sides) but if you just ignore that and respond to people who are being civil you should be fine."
I appreciate that. We may disagree and that's OK. I find that the later in the day it gets, the meaner some of the posters get. I think I can guess why. But, I usually check this thread before the cocktail hour and stay away at night--so if I disappear it's just my routine...not to mention,I have to take care of feeding lots of hungry boys.
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They didn't have a lacrosse TEAM (or any other team, for that matter)- they just played it during free-time. Lots of the former preppies liked lacrosse.
The therapy involved sessions several (maybe two) times a week with an individual counselor and then group sessions at least three times a week. There were lots of writing assignments. There was also a lot of one on one time with peers and more senior students. The kids made "appointments" with each other to have honest discussions about their past experiences, goals for the future and struggles with family, substances, school, relationships etc.
The kids were held to strict standards on many things- dress code etc. This seemed silly at times, but it was a way to get used to following the standards of a community. At Carlbrook the standards were simply and fairly minor, but in the real world the same principles would apply.
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You forniscators are all TOO predicable! I sent MY kid --- that's right, I SENT MY KID TO CARLBROOK AND WOULD DO IT AGAIN --- and he loves me for it. He calls me once per year, EVERY YEAR. He even once said he likes me --- Carlbrook performs nothing short of MIRACLES everyday! Don't believe this CRAP posted here by these ankle-biting, forniscating BASTARDS! This board is full of teens who whine and complain and LIE about being abused just for attention. This site is a CESSPOOL of disgusting SCUM --- it's obvious --- you all were sent to PROGRAMS!! You better be careful --- talk bad about Carlbrook --- and I will SUE YOU! Think I am kidding --- try me --- I dare you. I will sue your pants off. Sue, sue, sue, sue , sue. Yep, I'll sue you for sure. So grow up, get over it, and SHUT UP -- or I will sue you.
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Yeah, right.....
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I have started coming to this board to learn about programs and I am shocked at the crude and mean remarks coming from the program parents. You should all be ashamed of yourself. Remember, there are no bad kids, only bad parents!
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What crude and mean remarks are coming from program parents? The KareninDallas posts are NOT by a program parent- they are by a regular Fornits poster who registered that login name.
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Karen, no wonder your kid needed a program. :eek:
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I have started coming to this board to learn about programs
Well, they're usually unllicensed and unaccredited and have unlicensed staff with degrees from internet schools (like a few at Carlbrook), use coersion and BM, LGATs, have levels, arbitrary requirements for completion and charge more than the best therapy in the world combined with the finest education. If you buy into one you're a sucker, plain and simple.
Look at the comments on this thread alone: "I don't need evidence that it works," "I don't care if it is accredited," "I couldn't care less if they were licensed," etc. P
rogram parents (the VAST majority of them) are total idiots who put less care into decisions about who is tinkering with their child's mind than where to get their tires balanced.
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To the contrary, most parents who make the difficult choice to send their child to a residential program have done extensive research, visited the program, talked with other parents and have weighed all the options. These parents are likely to be extremely intelligent, successful people who are not likely to turn over their kid to anyone without many assurances and proof that it is the right place.
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On 2006-04-08 06:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To the contrary, most parents who make the difficult choice to send their child to a residential program have done extensive research, visited the program, talked with other parents and have weighed all the options. These parents are likely to be extremely intelligent, successful people who are not likely to turn over their kid to anyone without many assurances and proof that it is the right place. "
Your sarcasm is excellent.
_________________
Annuit Coeptis; Novus Ordo Seclorum.[ This Message was edited by: Paul Smith on 2006-04-08 06:49 ]
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On 2006-04-08 06:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To the contrary, most parents who make the difficult choice to send their child to a residential program have done extensive research, visited the program, talked with other parents and have weighed all the options. These parents are likely to be extremely intelligent, successful people who are not likely to turn over their kid to anyone without many assurances and proof that it is the right place. "
LMFAO! :lol: :lol:
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To the contrary, most parents who make the difficult choice to send their child to a residential program have done no research, not even visited the program, only talked with one or two parents, and have enough money to incarcerate their child in private prison. These parents are likely to be extremely intellectually challenged, financially successful people with enough money to turn over their kid to anyone with a good enough sales pitch, without many assurances and proof that it is the right place.
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As they say, a fool and their money are easily parted. Medical insurance pays for treatment when it is necessary. They don't pay for treatment for smoking pot, ditching class, having sex, staying out late... you know, normal teenage behavior.
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Wrong again. Some insurance companies pay for a portion of school is there is a therapeutic component. Ours did.
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Some insurance companies pay for a portion of school is there is a therapeutic component.
:roll: Ohhhhhh , okay. :lol:
Wonder why only some pay, and not for all of it? Hmmm....
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They don't pay for all of it because insurance doesn't cover academics or room and board associated with an academic program.
If so many of these parents are intellectually challenged, I wonder how they were successful enough to earn the money to afford to seek the best treatment for their teens? Many families DO have to incur debt or second mortgages to help their teens, but many are pretty high up on the food chain (i.e. the other end from most of the posters here).
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I wonder how they were successful enough to earn the money
This is what they care about most. They don't parent their children because they're too concerned with earning or spending money.
The bottom line is that they don't view anything as a "real problem" if they can pay someone else to take care of it. It's just a contract job to a lot of these people.
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On 2006-04-08 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To the contrary, most parents who make the difficult choice to send their child to a residential program have done no research, not even visited the program, only talked with one or two parents, and have enough money to incarcerate their child in private prison. These parents are likely to be extremely intellectually challenged, financially successful people with enough money to turn over their kid to anyone with a good enough sales pitch, without many assurances and proof that it is the right place.
"
Spot on.
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I can only attribute your characterization of these parents to immaturity. Do you really think you can generalize this way? How many program parents have you met? The majority of those I have met (which is a large number) put absolutely NOTHING ahead of their kids. Before resorting to a residential program, every other avenue has been exhausted. The stories that are told by the families in the group sessions are gut-wrenching. There are lots of tears. Maybe your personal experience was different, but what you are claiming is definitely the exception and not the norm.
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Have you had surgery lately? Insurance companies don't pay for ALL of anything...not even life-saving heart surgery.
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"I'll take the most expensive, unlicensed, unaccredited program you've got. Make it two. The other one has been acting up lately like her brother..."
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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On 2006-04-08 09:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I can only attribute your characterization of these parents to immaturity. Do you really think you can generalize this way? How many program parents have you met? The majority of those I have met (which is a large number) put absolutely NOTHING ahead of their kids. Before resorting to a residential program, every other avenue has been exhausted. The stories that are told by the families in the group sessions are gut-wrenching. There are lots of tears. Maybe your personal experience was different, but what you are claiming is definitely the exception and not the norm."
::troll::
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On 2006-04-08 08:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If so many of these parents are intellectually challenged, I wonder how they were successful enough to earn the money to afford to seek the best treatment for their teens?
Psychologically challenged, common-sense challenged, personality challenged, easily suggestable, hateful....... forgot those.
Many families DO have to incur debt or second mortgages to help their teens
Some religious people give away a huge portion of their salary for the same reason you think spending money makes you a good parent, true believers. Paying a lot of money to someone makes you feel like a great parent I bet. :lol:
but many are pretty high up on the food chain (i.e. the other end from most of the posters here).
You mean people who raise their own kids and don't pay huge sums of money for someone else to clean up their mess? Yeah, you are right, we are from the other end, thank god! Quickly go look at your bank statement so you can feel good about yourself. :lol:
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Do you realize how much like the religious right you folks are? You are paranoid and angry. You are unwilling to accept the different opinions of others who have had success with various programs. I feel sorry for you that you feel that threatened by the happiness and success of others.
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On 2006-04-08 11:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Do you realize how much like the religious right you folks are? You are paranoid and angry. You are unwilling to accept the different opinions of others who have had success with various programs. I feel sorry for you that you feel that threatened by the happiness and success of others."
But you are involved with faith-based treatment. You have to have faith that the program works because all evidence collected to date shows they don't. That sounds like the religious right to me. Faith over evidence? That's program parents.
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Who are all of you to decide how we spend our money? It sounds to me like you might not have any money (or a job, or a kid, or a life) and are resentful. I'd spend three times what I spent at Carlbrook to get the same results.
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The evidence is simply the results we saw in our own kids. Does it work for everyone? NO. Are the programs perfect? NO Did I disagree with some of it? YES Is my kid doing a lot better than he was before the program? Absolutely.
This isn't faith- it's evidence.
When a parent puts a kid in an emotional growth program the parent clearly understands that there is no guarantee that it will help the kid. You are willing to give it a try, because there are no other options left and the teen can no longer live in your house or in your community. In the case of programs like Carlbrook, your child is safe, eating well, getting a solid education and, hopefully, benefitting from therapy and interaction with peers who face similar struggles.
Like I said- your irrational hatred of programs like Carlbrook and parents who try them is very suspect. Religious right all over again.
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So is fair to call the parents desperate? I was wondering what that extensive research showed? In their extensive reasearch do you think they checked with the surgeon general who stated that not only is their no proof of the effectiveness of RTC's but their is some evidence these centers may be destructive. What type of evidence did they show you to prove that Carlbrook would help your child? Did you try family therapy?
I don't believe that parents are trying to hurt their children, but I do believe that because they are desperate they don't rational evidence based choices. Prove me wrong by showing some evidence not based on testimonials or ancedotes.
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Do you honestly think we would send our kids away without trying family therapy first? I'm sure some parents do. Probably some of the posters on this site had (and still have) parents that don't care. That makes kids desperate and angry. I love my child and decided Carlbrook was the best fit. My Carlbrook grad (now 20)is neither desperate or angry. I'm sorry you guys didn't go to Carlbrook. It may have helped.
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Carlbrook is not an RTC. No one showed any evidence to PROVE Carlbrook would help our kid. There is no such thing as that kind of "proof". We reviewed the program, met with the senior staff and relied somewhat on the recommendation from the wilderness therapist. Of course we tried family therapy and every other local resource first. Our kid benefitted from the program and had a year of structure where he could mature in a safe environment. No, there was nothing harmful about the program. No physical restraint. No abuse.
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Friendly reminder for everyone out there: These anonymous posters supporting the programs are probably absolutely fucking childless. Barren, even. Either that or their kids died from neglect when they were eight years old. They might even be on both sides of the argument, setting up strawmen.
IT'S REALLY EASY TO LIE ON THE INTERNET, DOUCHEBAGS.
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On 2006-04-08 12:46:00, Luke Stephens wrote:
"Friendly reminder for everyone out there: These anonymous posters supporting the programs are probably absolutely fucking childless. Barren, even. Either that or their kids died from neglect when they were eight years old. They might even be on both sides of the argument, setting up strawmen.
IT'S REALLY EASY TO LIE ON THE INTERNET, DOUCHEBAGS."
Dah, Its been that way since day one, where have you been.
It works both ways (opponents, proponents alike), you suggest we all log off and write letters to each other?
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On 2006-04-08 11:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Who are all of you to decide how we spend our money? It sounds to me like you might not have any money (or a job, or a kid, or a life) and are resentful. I'd spend three times what I spent at Carlbrook to get the same results."
You are the perfect mark.
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It's Karen, the resident Carlbrook troll, no reason to waste your time with this bitch... she comes here to let loose her vitrial hatred of teenagers, like the cunt she is.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 2&forum=37 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37)
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You seem to think there is only 1 Carlbrook supporter. Interesting that whenever a parent brings up some positive things, your only retort is to get ugly and resort to personal attacks. Did you learn that in YOUR program?
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::hehehmm::
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On 2006-04-08 14:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You seem to think there is only 1 Carlbrook supporter. Interesting that whenever a parent brings up some positive things, your only retort is to get ugly and resort to personal attacks. Did you learn that in YOUR program?"
Yes, at Carlbrook.
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Soon as 2 or 3 Carlbrook supporters get here the language gets bad from the anti-group. Using words like cunt and douchebag just show your levels of maturity. Little Luke is only 16 and he's welcome to say these things here. Hopefully that will give his parents a bit of a break. The "I know you are but what am I" game is getting old. You've got supporter after supporter coming on here and saying we have had good experiences at Carlbrook. Would it make you *happy* if we reported abuse? Even the kids that left Carlbrook and didn't finish the program have never come on here with horror stories. There aren't any.
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On 2006-04-08 15:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
Soon as 2 or 3 Carlbrook supporters get here the language gets bad from the anti-group.
There aren't two or three; there's just you. You're not fooling anyone.
Using words like cunt and douchebag just show your levels of maturity.
Pretending to be multiple people only shows your level of sanity.
Little Luke is only 16 and he's welcome to say these things here.
"Little Luke" won't work on him. There is one name you can call him that will piss him off, but finding it out will take more research than you'll ever do (and when you find out who and what he really is, you won't want to)...
Hell, the fact that you want to antagonize him is proof enough of your intent here.
Hopefully that will give his parents a bit of a break.
*snickering* They already got their breaks. Heh, heh..
The "I know you are but what am I" game is getting old.
Then stop playing it.
You've got supporter after supporter coming on here and saying we have had good experiences at Carlbrook.
One anonymous troll does not an army make. You're not even any good at this sockpuppetry game.
Would it make you *happy* if we reported abuse?
It would, because then you'd be saying something resembling the truth.
Even the kids that left Carlbrook and didn't finish the program have never come on here with horror stories. There aren't any.
"If I don't read the posts, they aren't there!" Please. This style of pseudo-argument won't work anywhere, let alone on Fornits where everyone already hates you.
Return troll to sender.
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Annuit Coeptis; Novus Ordo Seclorum.[ This Message was edited by: Paul Smith on 2006-04-08 15:43 ]
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Check the IP addresses. It works both ways, you know.
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We aren't going away. We will flood this thread with our success stories. There are more happy Carlbrook people than the 10 or so of you that spend your lives here.
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WE ARE THE BORG!
YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED!
:lol:
And where's this "Check IP Address" button, exactly?
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I have no idea how to check an IP address. That guy Dysfunction Junction always says he's checking the IP addresses to see if the anons are the same posters and then says that the posts are coming from the same computer. But...just maybe...he's lying about that, too.
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He might have the power to do it if Deborah, the admin, gave it to him. He's been here long enough.
IMO, it should be available to everyone so they can prove it for themselves.
(Luke and I are roomies, for the record.)
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On 2006-04-08 15:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We aren't going away. We will flood this thread with our success stories. There are more happy Carlbrook people than the 10 or so of you that spend your lives here. "
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I am not going away. I will flood this thread with my success story. You all got out of your programs too early.
KarenInDallas
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On 2006-04-08 17:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-08 15:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We aren't going away. We will flood this thread with our success stories. There are more happy Carlbrook people than the 10 or so of you that spend your lives here. "
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: "
Glad you like my post.
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On 2006-04-08 16:21:00, Paul Smith wrote:
"He might have the power to do it if Deborah, the admin, gave it to him. He's been here long enough.
IMO, it should be available to everyone so they can prove it for themselves.
(Luke and I are roomies, for the record.)"
Brokeback Mountain?
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OK, so you were desperate with no other options left, and decided to try something where the odds of failure according to the surgeon general was 75% and you are among the 25% whose children didn't have to be reinstitutionalized. For the purpose the the surgeon generals report Theraputic Boarding Schools are residential treatment. Forgive my skepticism about parent testimonials because I find that parents of the children who go to Therapuetic Boarding Schools are pretty disconnected from the emotional lives of their children. For instance the Carlbrook parent who told us her son volunteered to go back to Wilderness School. When the true story was that son would rather do the two months in winter in the wilderness than have another six months at Carlbrook. On the ASR survey parents rated their childs daily hapiness at 5.6 out of 7. The only problem was that when the objective standardized BASC test was used the kids measured, as clinicaly depressed as well as clinicaly pathological in about four other areas including conduct. There are many ways to compile valid, reliable evidence. There is outcome research, efficacy research, effectiveness research and other evidentiary types of research design. And since you think I could have benefited from going to Carlbrook can you tell me how Carlbrooks therapuetics could enhance my mental health? Perhaps I needed a diploma from Carlbrook to enhance my academic credentials. And speaking of mental health, do any of Carlbrooks counselors or academicians have degrees from unacredited schools?
Let me also say that I am happy for you because you got the only evidence that matters. And regardless of the factors that helped him turn his life around it is nice to see a success story.
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On 2006-04-08 19:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-08 16:21:00, Paul Smith wrote:
"He might have the power to do it if Deborah, the admin, gave it to him. He's been here long enough.
IMO, it should be available to everyone so they can prove it for themselves.
(Luke and I are roomies, for the record.)"
Brokeback Mountain?"
Oh karen! ::blushing::
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Does he/she have something they are trying to tell us?
That they are fucking douchebag? Yep, they told us.
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*a fucking douchebag. If someone was gay and was abused in a program and spoke up, does that make them any less credible? Fuck whoever says yes.
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any of you realize how many posters HERE are gay, or how many people were sent FOR being gay?
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And speaking of mental health, do any of Carlbrooks counselors or academicians have degrees from unacredited schools?
Counseling degress from internet schools, yes. How exactly does one get a psychology or social work degree from the internet without even doing an internship? Pretty scary...
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On 2006-04-08 16:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have no idea how to check an IP address. That guy Dysfunction Junction always says he's checking the IP addresses to see if the anons are the same posters and then says that the posts are coming from the same computer. But...just maybe...he's lying about that, too."
"Too" means "also." You've yet to show anything anyone else has said to be a lie and have yet to show any evidence that the program works. I guess just making it up is good enough for you.
Please make a list of DJ's "lies" so that we can tell you're not lying, which, BTW, you are.
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On 2006-04-08 15:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We aren't going away. We will flood this thread with our success stories. There are more happy Carlbrook people than the 10 or so of you that spend your lives here. "
So then why is it only you that keeps posting? For those of you who sdon't know, this is the lady who's son went to Carlbrook "voluntarily."
He "volunteered" because the other "choices" Mom gave him were boot camp or being shipped "overseas" to some foreign hell-hole where he could be abused more effectively. Some choices. Thanks, mom, for the trying "everything." What a liar.
This lady is a giant crock of shit and one of the ONLY THREE CB supporters posting.
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Maybe you should check the Carlbrook website and you will see the degrees from vey credible schools that most of the academic and therapeutic staff hold. I'm sure you have the expertise to evaluate the online degree programs. I can attest to the fact that if a counselor has been hired at Carlbrook, they have proven themselves in some way. Grant Price is very particular about who he hires to work there, and if they don't cut it, they are gone.
There are a number of parents and students who have posted on this thread discussing the strengths and weaknesses of Carlbrook. I understand that you don't want to hear any of the positives (back to that old religious right mentality again), but they have been posted here again and again.
My kid did NOT go voluntarily to wilderness, and remember that Carlbrook requires wilderness first.
So-gee, there MAY be several posters here...
You are so quick to judge parents for choosing this program. However, you are not able to present an option for situations requiring a residential program which also provides relatively strong academics in an environment close to a normal boarding school. These are kids who did not WANT to continue to live at home if it meant adhering to family requirements regarding substance use, not breaking the law, attending school, respecting others... These kids lied to their parents, their schools and their therapists.
Many of the kids who attended wilderness and Carlbrook are doing very well. They are not posting on this forum bitching about it all, in case you didn't notice. I think that is your REAL problem. You just can't stand it that you aren't hearing from Carlbrook kids about how they were abused and their lives are ruined. Guess what- they DON'T hate their parents, they DON'T have PTSD and they aren't spending their lives swearing at others on an internet forum.
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:wstupid:
You are up early this morning Karen. BTW, the only poster I see bitching is you. Keep up the good fight , Karen, maybe your imaginary friends will arrive soon. :rofl: :roll:
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and they aren't spending their lives swearing at others on an internet forum.
Yeah, their parents pretty much have that one covered. Well, at least you Karen! :lol:
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[/quote]
So then why is it only you that keeps posting? For those of you who sdon't know, this is the lady who's son went to Carlbrook "voluntarily."
He "volunteered" because the other "choices" Mom gave him were boot camp or being shipped "overseas" to some foreign hell-hole where he could be abused more effectively. Some choices. Thanks, mom, for the trying "everything." What a liar.
This lady is a giant crock of shit and one of the ONLY THREE CB supporters posting."
[/quote]
You are lying. I listed several choices my kid had, including staying home. Christ School, St. Andrews, (traditional boarding schools) and living with his father were also all rejected. If you read the post, you will read that his father wanted to send him to those other places...maybe. He didn't know anything about any them or the industry. Instead of letting him make an impulsive descision I travelled around the country to find our son something better. I did my research and the three of us chose Carlbrook. (I actually got abused on this site for incurring costs to research- and that's what we're all accused of not doing.) My son did not want to live at home and wanted to go somewhere else that he felt like it would at least be harder to find drugs. He didn't even want the temptation. He was never tempted. Carlbrook drug screens regularly and my son welcomed the discipline and safe environment to get his life back on track. Please quit lying. I agree with the earlier poster. I'm not going away either.
About the "Brokeback Mountain" post- it was tasteless and inflamatory. It should not have been posted. But, with that said, all of you tend to jump to the same narrow minded conclusions that that poster did when you accuse of of being like every other program parent. I know what he/she was trying to point out.
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On 2006-04-09 06:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-08 16:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have no idea how to check an IP address. That guy Dysfunction Junction always says he's checking the IP addresses to see if the anons are the same posters and then says that the posts are coming from the same computer. But...just maybe...he's lying about that, too."
"Too" means "also." You've yet to show anything anyone else has said to be a lie and have yet to show any evidence that the program works. I guess just making it up is good enough for you.
Please make a list of DJ's "lies" so that we can tell you're not lying, which, BTW, you are."
The evidence I have is a happy ending. DJ lies about Carlbrook being an abusive program. It's not. Nobody has come here and made that accusation and there have never been any accusations through the courts or otherwise. He thinks all programs are like HLA, they are not.
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I have one more question for all of you. In the four or five years Carlbrook has been in business, they have graduated roughly 30 kids five times a year. Lots of kids quit the program early. Lots of kids were asked to leave. If any of them had been badly mistreated, don't you think they would have found this forum and began to expose it the way the other programs are exposed? This is not a hard forum to find. If you google Carlbrook, it pops up quickly. The parents that are posting here are letting parents that are looking at programs that there is at least one, and maybe ONLY one that has a good record of academics, zero abuse accusations and a supportive group of current and former parents that believe in the place. This thread is called Carlbrook- and we will keep posting the good while the rest of you invent the bad. I don't see any other thread on fornits concerning a particular program with this kind of support- and no disgruntled former students.
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Whoever posted the the brokeback mountain comment is the scum of the earth. I dare you to come out from your fucking bag and take responsibility for your comment. Straight Gay Bi what does that have to do with being treated like a human being? This guy is probably sitting at home with cucumber up his ass while he is sucking a dog dick.
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I strongly suspect the Brokeback Mountain comment was made by a kid- not a parent.
There ARE other good programs. I think Swift River is OK. Oakley is excellent, but less restrictive even than Carlbrook. Many of the wilderness programs are excellent and have NO record of any abuse.
In this entire thread there have been one or two former Carlbrook students who did not feel that their time there was worthwhile. The other student posters supported the program strongly. One parent who had a kid there for a very short time and withdrew him felt that it was a waste of money. The rest fully supported the program. There isn't a school out there- therapeutic or otherwise-that works for everyone. There will always be dissatisfied customers. That is a whole different story than whether a program is abusive, out there just to take your money, or unethical.
No program is perfect and the weaknesses of Carlbrook- many of which have been corrected since the school's formation- have been discussed.
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I looked at all of those programs. But, I am the poster accused of picking between boot camp and an overseas school. We had a hard time chosing between Oakley and Carlbrook. In the end, my son chose Carlbrook because it was closer to home and he wanted, in fact, longed for the structure of Carlbrook. Also, he already knew a kid at Oakley and wanted a fresh start. Thanks for posting.
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reading through all this I notice not ONE carlbrook supporter signs in... and it seems like it is just one anon program supporter here really trying hard to make their program look good. it appears less than credible, and their comments about kids needing to be sent back to abusive programs says a lot about them. why dont any carlbrook supporters sign their posts with even an initial or something?? its because it would show there is only one person pretending to be many.... its pretty damn obvious to us anon. that comment about bringing their own army of supporters was laughable.. we are still waiting for more than one anon to show up. :smokin:
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If you read the posts you will see that there have been MANY anons posting. They come and go. Right now there are two or three. I am not the anon who looked at all the other schools, so there are two of us right now- and perhaps a third. You have to be kidding when you ask why we don't sign in? The abuse that is heaped on anyone defending a program speaks for itself. I will agree that it does get confusing, but if the best you can do to counter positive remarks about Carlbrook is to say, "Well, it's all the same person", that's not too compelling.
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Sorry.. did a baghead say something? I get you all confused. Who is Karen , is that you?
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Oh wait, theres two or three of you now... you think... lol... youre too much. Abuse? Did someone come over to your house and assault you or something? Can you elaborate, shoudl I fear for my safety by coming to this site? I was abused in a program, phsyically retsrained, hit and kicked. Is that what you mean by abuse?
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Ive looked through allt he forums and it seems most of the anons are program employees. When you guys get outed like WHo and others it shows its just you guys pretending to be a lot of people, I am not making this shit up. Go read some other threads you will see it too. You can say whatever you want, but its pretty clear to us you work for the program or make money off it.
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None of the anons on this thread are program employees. We have been quite clear on our experience with the program. The Who isn't a program employee, either. Who was very clear about having a daughter who attended ASR.
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On 2006-04-09 11:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"None of the anons on this thread are program employees. We have been quite clear on our experience with the program."
was this an orchestrated effort? how else would you possibly 'know' that?
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On 2006-04-09 11:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"None of the anons on this thread are program employees. We have been quite clear on our experience with the program. The Who isn't a program employee, either. Who was very clear about having a daughter who attended ASR. "
Yeah ... how do you know... ? So .. the who had a daughter who attended ASR but why do I find his posts in other forums all the time supporting other programs? You say you have been quite clear... reality check... its not clear at all... when reading through this thread it looks like theres one program employee trying desperately to control the conversation ....honestly its hard to believe a parent would spend so much time on this board defending the program. why would they? This is a program survivor site thats how I found it by searching for Abuse program... etc.. it also seems this person hates this forum, making all kinds of bad remarks about the posters and this whole forum and then use it everyday... you can say all you want, I am telling you how it appears to me, and im sure others as well. its obvious you work for the program... otherwise you are one crazy ass parent with nothing to do, coming to a child abuse survivor forum to fuck with kids... pretty low and sad.. so I still believe you are a program employee.
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On 2006-04-09 12:14:00, Anonymis wrote:
"
On 2006-04-09 11:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"None of the anons on this thread are program employees. We have been quite clear on our experience with the program. The Who isn't a program employee, either. Who was very clear about having a daughter who attended ASR. "
Yeah ... how do you know... ? So .. the who had a daughter who attended ASR but why do I find his posts in other forums all the time supporting other programs? You say you have been quite clear... reality check... its not clear at all... when reading through this thread it looks like theres one program employee trying desperately to control the conversation ....honestly its hard to believe a parent would spend so much time on this board defending the program. why would they? This is a program survivor site thats how I found it by searching for Abuse program... etc.. it also seems this person hates this forum, making all kinds of bad remarks about the posters and this whole forum and then use it everyday... you can say all you want, I am telling you how it appears to me, and im sure others as well. its obvious you work for the program... otherwise you are one crazy ass parent with nothing to do, coming to a child abuse survivor forum to fuck with kids... pretty low and sad.. so I still believe you are a program employee."
OK, so if a Carlbrook kid had been abused don't you think he or she would post it here? I found this site by just googling "Carlbrook". I had no idea it was a survivor's site. That makes our positive postings even more credible. Carlbrook kids don't NEED to find a "survivor site".
I don't sign in anymore because the first time I did my email was flooded with nastiness. It was more of a pain in the ass than anything else. How do I know you don't have multiple log in names? What kind of a log-in is "Anonymis?" That doesn't tell us much about you, nor does the fact that you've only posted a few times. My bet is that you're a regular with lots of different login identities.
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So.... no denial you work for a program.... tt was pretty obvious.
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By the way, Carlbrook has a lengthy waiting list. The staff doesn't need to spend time defending the program. Parents defend the program so that other parents will know there is a good choice out there. That's why we are here.
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I've never worked for a program. I am a program parent.
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On 2006-04-09 11:24:00, Anonymis wrote:
"Sorry.. did a baghead say something? I get you all confused. Who is Karen , is that you?"
This anonymous Carlbrook troll is KarenInDallas, more information can be found here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 2&forum=37 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37)
Anonymis don't even waste your time with this woman, she is an alcoholic out of work attorney who sent her kid to several programs and comes here to start shit for fun. She needs help, and only comes here for attention, she is lonely.
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I am a different poster. No, I don't work for a program. I'm a parent of a kid who has been out of Carlbrook for almost 2 years.
Portions of this site are for survivors. Other portions have developed into places to badmouth all programs. Most of the people doing the criticizing have absolutely no credible information about the programs.
If a parent is searching for information, I would like for them to have some accurate feedback on the program, not just the ill-informed slurs mainly posted here.
Why are you so interested in the Carlbrook thread if you are a survivor of a different program? What is it you have to contribute?
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On 2006-04-09 13:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-09 11:24:00, Anonymis wrote:
"Sorry.. did a baghead say something? I get you all confused. Who is Karen , is that you?"
This anonymous Carlbrook troll is KarenInDallas, more information can be found here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 2&forum=37 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37)
Anonymis don't even waste your time with this woman, she is an alcoholic out of work attorney who sent her kid to several programs and comes here to start shit for fun. She needs help, and only comes here for attention, she is lonely."
::bwahaha2:: ::bwahaha:: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Ok .... I get it now...
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I am neither alcoholic or out of work.
Nice try at libel, though.
:rofl:
Karen
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Hahaha... so you anon are karen? I'm confused.. you are karenindallas from that other thread?! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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I'm not Karen either. Karen's kid did not finish the program. Mine did. There are two supporters posting right now. Neither one of us is Karen.
Anonymis, I'd like to know why you are trolling this board? There are no Carlbrook abuse survivors here because Carlbrook is not abusive.
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'I'm sorry about your job- I've been "idle" for a few months, too. This lawyer-stuff isn't so secure anymore.
Karen'
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: from other thread
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Maybe you should check the date on that old post. Also, have you ever heard of severance? That's when you get paid and you don't have to work- like when the company you work for gets sold. It's a pretty sweet deal, actually.
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'Well- both of mine were screwed up. Daughter acted "in" and handled her depression by cutting. We were able to treat her locally and a change in school environment helped a lot. She remained successful academically through the whole thing. Son acted "out" and required programs. Lots of their issues arose from our parenting, but not all. It is a tough time to be a teenager, and a tough time to be a parent.'
and you are giving advice to other parents???? no wonder you dont sign your posts!!!!
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On 2006-04-09 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Maybe you should check the date on that old post. Also, have you ever heard of severance? That's when you get paid and you don't have to work- like when the company you work for gets sold. It's a pretty sweet deal, actually."
So now you are karen, i thought you just sasid you werent??? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Are you drunk!
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Yep- parenting is pretty tough. Kids are doing well and, yes, I have been able to be quite helpful to other parents.
Karen
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OK, now Karen is here. KareninDallas is not Karen. KareninDallas has been made up. Karen was the first unfortunate Carlbrook supporter to get abused...read the thread. That's why we don't log-in.
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Wow.... why do you lie so much and cover your identity???? You pretend to be 3 people???? No wonder nobody beleives you.. that other thread was telling!!
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you can stay anonymis with a login!!!!!the only reason you dont get one is so that you can make it look like multiple people are posting!!!!! its obvious to me! and everyone else too! :lol:
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KareninDallas was my login name on another site. Someone on this site registered it and pretends to post as me to get some laughs. It CAN be confusing for newcomers.
Yes, I received abusive emails and IMs. Someone else got the phone calls since a wrong number (which they thought was mine) was put on this forum. That person received some abusive phone calls.
Pretty nice.
Karen
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i read that other thread about karenindallas and it seems she was caught lying before and posting as multiple people.... duh!!
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Anonymis- you seem to be a little slow. My kid did not complete the Carlbrook program. I think this Anon's kid is still there. Someone else had a daughter there. I can assure you that there is not just one anon posting.
Karen
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If you are the karen from that thread it said you came here anonymously bashing people and then people figured out who you were!!! sounds like you are pretty dumb lady!
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On 2006-04-09 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anonymis- you seem to be a little slow. My kid did not complete the Carlbrook program. I think this Anon's kid is still there. Someone else had a daughter there. I can assure you that there is not just one anon posting.
Karen"
yeah its probably your multiple personalities!!
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I would certainly believe everything you read on this forum. Can I sell you some property?
Karen
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Can I sell you an ineffective program????
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Nope- I'm out of the program business. But, thanks for the offer. I preferred to go with effective ones. Now, it's been fun checking in over here, but I don't want to overstay my welcome, so have a good day. You'll figure it all out eventually.
Karen
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youre hear hiding and pretending to be parents and you are not out of the program business.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: not making ends meet lawyering... spending too much time here??? that other thread was years old... nobody who was relaly 'abused and harrased' would keep coming back if they werent bringing in the cash!!! get real lady your jig is up!!!
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okay that was weird... people were asking about karen and then all of a sudden this karen appears and other karens and then karenindalls... what the fuck was that all about... karen is crazy!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Anonymis- you sure know a lot about this forum to have only 22 postings! Are you Luke or Paul or one of the others?
Anyone can have multiple log-ins so it really doesn't matter if you stay anonymous. Anonymous posters are protecting their kids' identities so they won't be harassed. The only thing my kid really hated about Carlbrook were the unsucessful kids that bashed him for doing well. You think he wants to spend anymore time defending himself? He really despised the cry babies.
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are you karen... why did you stop signing your posts... this is why people are always calling anons karen ??? :rofl: you sound paranoid who is lukje and paul, the other voices in your head???? karen, are you supposed to be using the computer?? somehow i think you are at some adult day care center somewhere with a diaper on drueling on yourself!!! :lol: :lol:
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Yep, I think you are Luke. He can't spell either.
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you sure know a lot about this forum to have only 22 postings
i can fucking read lady!! lol :lol: :lol: all tennagers arent bad devils that need to be locked up like you think of your son. too bad you cant send me too a program... you probably would!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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On 2006-04-09 14:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yep, I think you are Luke. He can't spell either."
but I dont send my kid away because im a bad parent!!!! id rather be a bad speller and a good person!!
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Yep, I think you are Luke.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
take your meds lady!!!! call the orderly to help you!!!
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Anonymis isn't me or Luke.
I do wonder, Karen-and-sockpuppets, what you are really trying to defend? You do realize that the people who frequent this board aren't ever going to give you respect (because you aren't worthy of it), don't you? Do you really believe that your inane postings will convince parents to send their kids there?
To me this all smacks of self-justification. No, Karen; sending your kids away was wrong then, is wrong now, and will continue to be wrong in the future, despite what you post here.
Please go away. You've crossed the line from annoying to downright obnoxious. Frankly, Luke has better manners.
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She won't go away. She has her own thread. Take a look...
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =37&Sort=D (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11137&forum=37&Sort=D)
Some dailogue from Karen's own thread...
Awww... She's a lovely little shit-eater.
Let me ask you, did you curl it up neatly like soft cone, or was it a splatter that gave her freckles?
I know she loves it both ways.
What does it take to get people this upset about you? Answer: a good dose of Karen.
Have a read of the thread. You'll learn what she's all about.
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OH shit ::blushing::
:rofl:
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On 2006-04-09 14:27:00, Anonymis wrote:
"OH shit ::blushing:: "
It's pretty rough stuff. It started out as a nice thread.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-09 14:30 ]
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We're not looking for your respect. That's not worth much since you don't have an ounce of self-respect. We are going to stick around and give both sides. You can't chase us away without making yourselves look cheesy and stupid.
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On 2006-04-09 14:13:00, Anonymis wrote:
"
On 2006-04-09 14:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yep, I think you are Luke. He can't spell either."
but I dont send my kid away because im a bad parent!!!! id rather be a bad speller and a good person!!"
I hope you grow up to be good person and a good parent. So far I don't believe you have much experience with either. And don't worry, computers have spell checks.
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think of it like this lady... i would be worried if you DID LIKE ME.... program parents... what can you do? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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On 2006-04-09 15:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We're not looking for your respect. That's not worth much since you don't have an ounce of self-respect. We are going to stick around and give both sides. You can't chase us away without making yourselves look cheesy and stupid."
It's just you Karen.
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On 2005-09-14 08:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"LMSW here again. Let me clarify about the credentialing of clinical staff.
Some psychology and social work programs are NOT accredited by the APA or the Social Work Counsel of Education. This means that someone can obtain the degree (MS in Psychology or the MSW) and NOT be eligible for state licensure to practice. Most Master of Psychology degrees do not qualify someone to be an independent practioner, and therefore they cannot be licensed by the state. You usually need a PhD in psychology or a Master of Social Work to be licensed as an independent practitioner. Carlbrook only lists 1 licensed practitioner, who happens to be a PhD in psychology. This means the majority of clinical staff at Carlbrook are unlicensed, hence unregulated by the state.
Some "advisors" listed on Carlbrook's website (clinical staff) have degrees from internet universities (ie: Argosy University). These degrees are total BS. Any program worth a grain of salt would not hire clinical staff with these questionable, nonlicensed credentials.
Sorry if I sound like an education snob. But I am not impressed by any of the institutions listed under the names of the advisors. Radford University? Appalachin State University? Francis Marion University? These schools are not in the top 50, maybe even not the top 200. You probably need a GED and half a brain cell to qualify for admission. Just because someone has a degree does not mean they are QUALIFIED to be a clinician. Clinical skills are not attached to a diploma. Any warm body can pass a couple exams, write a couple crappy papers, and purchase a degree.
Can people here please help me gather info about the connection (if any) between CEDU and Academy at Swift River / Cascade School / Mt. Bachelor Academy? Also, are these schools tied with the Mormons? I am trying to write a letter to the NASW and need more info. Thank you.
"
This is what actual professionals think about the staff at Carlbrook.
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Karen doesn't care about credentials and education. Karen is the queen of self serving facetious reasoning. Watch, she will be back today posting, she can't help herself, can you, Karen?
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Karens kids should sue her for intentional infliction of emotional distress. It is child abuse since her kids have to look at her every day. That's before anything came out of her mouth. The poster of her picture should be prosecuted under the obscenity statutes. He also wontonly caused me to chuck my breakfast.
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On 2006-02-06 15:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-02-06 14:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't believe in clinical research. The anon poster summed it up really well. End of story. "
Allow me to re-synopsize your position for you:
"I'm an idiot."
or
"I prefer experimental or knowingly harmful treatment for my kid."
or
"I shelled out all that cash and I'm so deeply invested that no matter what clinical research shows I reject it out-of-hand."
With your level of rational thought, it's no wonder they roped your stupid ass in with a shiny brochure and a wink.
"
This just couldn't be any more accurate.
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Why did you only give him only one choice that was a traditional boarding school? If you thought that St Andrews would accept him he couldn't have had that many school related issues. Or is their something I'm missing. I appreciate your posting on this forum because I want to understand the decision making process from your point of view.
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I just read through a few of the threads on this forum. I found my way here by googling the names of a couple of programs that have been suggested for my daughter, who is now in a wilderness program. My wife and I are about to visit some schools, and I wanted to do some research ahead of time.
I have never seen such an immature, disgusting group of posters on any internet forum I have frequented. The way you respond to parents and teens who try to report positive things about a program is absolutely vile. I noticed that a few of you are so obsessed that you come across as absolute freaks- especially Dysfunction Junction. From reading the Hidden Lake topic, one would have expected the doors to be closed by now. What possibly can be so compelling that an adult would spend hours every day trying to bring down a boarding school? And the vulgarity and anger directed at this supposed Karen is beyond childish. The good news is that the more you post those kind of things, the more any credibility you could have is gone.
I got almost no helpful information, except for a few posts by students or parents who actually had experience with the programs we are considering- and that experience was fairly recent. It is very, very sad that so many of you have not been able to move on with your lives and delight in attacking people in such a vicious way.
I really feel sorry for Eudora, who appears to be the moderator of this forum. The Eudora posts are incoherent and sound very much like the writer has some brain damage.
Nihil..., Dysfunction, Paul, Puppy, Luke- I just can't get over the low level of humanity this site attracts.
I'm sorry I stopped by, and I won't be back.
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When you come here looking solely for a person - any unknown stranger - to tell you it's just fine, and, in fact noble to lock your child in a private kiddie jail, then it's not hard to believe you didn't find what you were looking for.
It strikes me that the way you describe the "low level of humanity here" applies to the way you raised your child. This is why you have got yourself into trouble. Now, of course, your only way "out" of the problem is to blame your kid, lock him/her up, and disregard the facts about the programs you are "researching." This is the only way to make your behavior acceptable.
Feel free to come back when you are willing to talk about the well-established facts concerning an overwhelmingly harmful industry.
I know you on't be back to debate the clinical facts about programs, but I know from experience that you will be back.
Good luck. You're going to need it.
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What possibly can be so compelling that an adult would spend hours every day trying to bring down a boarding school?
Systematic, institutionalized child abuse. Something your unfortunate child is going to be intimately aware of very soon.
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Dysfunction, would you stop replying in that manner to the really obvious trolls?
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I make it a point to rebut any obvious fallacies perpetrated by programmies. Casual visitors to this site don't know from trolls...
What if they believe something like that garbage? All that was just a bunch of ad hominem BS. Notice how the poster carefully avoids debate about the facts.
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On 2006-04-10 13:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just read through a few of the threads on this forum. I found my way here by googling the names of a couple of programs that have been suggested for my daughter, who is now in a wilderness program. My wife and I are about to visit some schools, and I wanted to do some research ahead of time.
I have never seen such an immature, disgusting group of posters on any internet forum I have frequented. The way you respond to parents and teens who try to report positive things about a program is absolutely vile. I noticed that a few of you are so obsessed that you come across as absolute freaks- especially Dysfunction Junction. From reading the Hidden Lake topic, one would have expected the doors to be closed by now. What possibly can be so compelling that an adult would spend hours every day trying to bring down a boarding school? And the vulgarity and anger directed at this supposed Karen is beyond childish. The good news is that the more you post those kind of things, the more any credibility you could have is gone.
I got almost no helpful information, except for a few posts by students or parents who actually had experience with the programs we are considering- and that experience was fairly recent. It is very, very sad that so many of you have not been able to move on with your lives and delight in attacking people in such a vicious way.
I really feel sorry for Eudora, who appears to be the moderator of this forum. The Eudora posts are incoherent and sound very much like the writer has some brain damage.
Nihil..., Dysfunction, Paul, Puppy, Luke- I just can't get over the low level of humanity this site attracts.
I'm sorry I stopped by, and I won't be back."
Knew you'd be back today Karen!!! ::both::
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On 2006-04-10 13:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just read through a few of the threads on this forum. I found my way here by googling the names of a couple of programs that have been suggested for my daughter, who is now in a wilderness program. My wife and I are about to visit some schools, and I wanted to do some research ahead of time.
I have never seen such an immature, disgusting group of posters on any internet forum I have frequented. The way you respond to parents and teens who try to report positive things about a program is absolutely vile. I noticed that a few of you are so obsessed that you come across as absolute freaks- especially Dysfunction Junction. From reading the Hidden Lake topic, one would have expected the doors to be closed by now. What possibly can be so compelling that an adult would spend hours every day trying to bring down a boarding school? And the vulgarity and anger directed at this supposed Karen is beyond childish. The good news is that the more you post those kind of things, the more any credibility you could have is gone.
I got almost no helpful information, except for a few posts by students or parents who actually had experience with the programs we are considering- and that experience was fairly recent. It is very, very sad that so many of you have not been able to move on with your lives and delight in attacking people in such a vicious way.
I really feel sorry for Eudora, who appears to be the moderator of this forum. The Eudora posts are incoherent and sound very much like the writer has some brain damage.
Nihil..., Dysfunction, Paul, Puppy, Luke- I just can't get over the low level of humanity this site attracts.
I'm sorry I stopped by, and I won't be back."
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#186784 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14794&forum=9&start=0#186784)
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I did notice she didn't say anything about Karen's posts. She was responded to with the disrespect she showed others.
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O, by the way. Dysfunction Junction is a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL. sheesh.
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Cram it, Karen. ::both:: ::nod::
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Dj knows it. I'm not Karen. Just calling BS when BS is due.
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On 2006-04-10 14:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-10 13:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just read through a few of the threads on this forum. I found my way here by googling the names of a couple of programs that have been suggested for my daughter, who is now in a wilderness program. My wife and I are about to visit some schools, and I wanted to do some research ahead of time.
I have never seen such an immature, disgusting group of posters on any internet forum I have frequented. The way you respond to parents and teens who try to report positive things about a program is absolutely vile. I noticed that a few of you are so obsessed that you come across as absolute freaks- especially Dysfunction Junction. From reading the Hidden Lake topic, one would have expected the doors to be closed by now. What possibly can be so compelling that an adult would spend hours every day trying to bring down a boarding school? And the vulgarity and anger directed at this supposed Karen is beyond childish. The good news is that the more you post those kind of things, the more any credibility you could have is gone.
I got almost no helpful information, except for a few posts by students or parents who actually had experience with the programs we are considering- and that experience was fairly recent. It is very, very sad that so many of you have not been able to move on with your lives and delight in attacking people in such a vicious way.
I really feel sorry for Eudora, who appears to be the moderator of this forum. The Eudora posts are incoherent and sound very much like the writer has some brain damage.
Nihil..., Dysfunction, Paul, Puppy, Luke- I just can't get over the low level of humanity this site attracts.
I'm sorry I stopped by, and I won't be back."
Knew you'd be back today Karen!!! ::both:: "
Thirteen sentences containing ten ad hominem attacks.
"Hello, Pot?" he said, "It's Kettle." :wave:
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What are the therapuetic techniques, dogmas, and
philosophical approaches of Carlbrook? Alumni, parents, all posters feel free to share your experience and give your input and opinion.
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Look back through the thread. All of that has been discussed by several parents. For the most part, we are not MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS and can't discuss it in the depth that you want us to.
The website is informative.
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On 2005-09-13 11:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have a slightly different perspective on Carlbrook. I never heard of this school until today. I am a LMSW (Licensed Master of Social Work) and found a job listing for Carlbrook on the NASW (National Association of Social Workers) website. The job advertisement was misleading: it made Carlbrook sound like a boarding school for the intellectually gifted student. I was shocked that they are willing to consider "MSWs in progress". That means they are willing to hire unlicensed social workers.
When I went to the Carlbrook website, I learned that the therapists / counselors are called "advisors." Many have graduated from unaccredited schools of psychology and social work. Looks like lots of internet degrees from universities in the Carribean. Few, if any, seem to have credentials that would get them a state license to practice psychology or social work.
Then I read about the Wilderness Therapy prerequisite. Wilderness Therapy is NOT research proven effective. And the benefits are highly questionable. I would never refer any child or family to such a program.
Next, I read about the Dean's experience at CEDU and Cascade here.
This all amounts to one thing for me: Something smells fishy. I am going to write to the NASW about my concerns.
Perhaps Carlbrook is a decent place. But I won't attach my name to this type of organization. Too many red flags."
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On 2006-04-11 10:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look back through the thread. All of that has been discussed by several parents. For the most part, we are not MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS and can't discuss it in the depth that you want us to.
"
"My son is having surgery next week. I don't know what the procedure entails, how he will benefit, or what the risk factors are. But, I trust the dr. implicity. His website looks really good."
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No, it's a little different than that. Read the posts. I looked at 20 schools and hired a consultant after I was referred to Carlbrook and Second Nature by an adolescent Psychiatrist. My son had a very sucessful and meaningful time at Carlbrook. He's even been back to visit.
I was just looking back because I haven't checked this site in a few days. Someone asked me why I only looked at one traditional boarding school (St. Andrews). I looked at several and he was accepted at all of them. I'll explain it again:
my son wanted a fresh start with new faces in a place where he felt like it would be hard to be tempted by drugs again. He was at Carlbrook for 15 months, graduated, is now in college and has stayed away from drugs. I know it doesn't work for all kids. It probably doesn't work for most kids but it worked for mine...maybe because he truly went willingly and even chose the program.
An MD, a director of a large Adollescent Psych Unit/Hospital in a large NE city gave me the recommendation. Continuing to say I did not do my homework is untrue. I also have an MSW (from years and years ago from a prestigious University)...and so what, it didn't make me an expert in much of anything. I went to the next level for advice. I got what I paid for at Carlbrook and wouldn't do it any differently.
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I also have an MSW (from years and years ago from a prestigious University)...
If this is true, why were you so completely unable to deal with your kid at home? Why couldn't you work with him while he attended an outpatient program in your community.
If you are an MSW, then you should have a lot of criticisms for the way this place is run. I'm not saying you should say "it sucks" or anything like that, but the red flags of abusive staff, LGAT seminars and BM program based on punishment, level system, etc. SHOULD have given you great pause about engaging their services.
Take into consideration that for what you paid you could have hired a full time social worker or psychologist to work with your kid all day every day while he went to school and after school outpatient care.
Believe me, I'm glad your kid is happy, but what you did is kind of like paying for knock-off cadillac made by Koreans that charge ten times what a genuine cadillac is worth. If you are happy with that purchase then I'm happy for you because you have too much money to know what to do with it. That must be nice.
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I gave him a choice. I do know enough about recovery to know that it had to be on his terms. His father paid for Carlbrook. We are divorced. The father wanted harsher...I wanted more gentle....our son liked Carlbrook and chose it. I never, ever said the place was perfect. No place is. It worked out well for all of us.
My husband is made of money. I could never have afforded Carlbrook. But, your whole argument about treating him myself is ludicrous. Most teachers do not home school their kids. Also, he wanted OUT. Out of my house and my rules, his father's house and his rules and really I think he got scared and wanted to go somewhere he perceived as "safe" to start over.
It was a good thing for him. He never, not once, felt like the environment was abusive...silly at times, but not abusive.
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But, your whole argument about treating him myself is ludicrous...
This statement is loony. Nobody said "treat him." They said "work with him" while he went to outpatient treatment.
If he wanted out of your house so bad, why didn't he just get emancipated? It would be the end of your problem and his.
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By the time a teen gets to the point of needing intervention on the level of a residential school or wilderness program, that teen is NOT cooperating at all with any kind of at-home treatment plan. The teen is refusing to attend therapy, outpatient treatment (which doesn't even exist for many of these issues) or follow normal household rules. The teen is skipping school and abusing substances. The parents are unable to handle these problems. It generally takes several weeks in wilderness before the teen even admits that there IS a problem.
Yes, Carlbrook uses behavioral modification. Guess what? A lot of the kids' behaviors NEED to be modified! The old way wasn't working so well.
I know how badly you want Carlbrook to fall into the category of a bad and abusive program, but it simply isn't.
As far as qualifications go- the one thing that is an absolute certainty is that Dysfunction Junction is not qualified to make any judgements about the family dynamics or decisions of anyone else. He has not raised teenagers. He has no idea what level of problems were going on in the household. He is operating from some sort of abstract thinking model where if a few of the staff got degrees from an online program, or if the school hasn't finished the accrediation process, your kid must be being abused or you have wasted all your money. He knows more than we do about our families and our kids!
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You know, I'm being honest and forthright here. I am tired of giving all of you such a beautiful target. Those of you that have been in trouble before (at home, school, etc.) I have a question for you-
Would you have done ANYTHING your parent wanted you to do at that time? I'm a small woman, he's a massive kid- we didn't have any hatred (lots of fear and frustration on my part) towards one another but he sure was not going to stand for doing it my way. I tried everything and frankly, reliving this dark time in my life and then getting crap from all of you has FINALLY worn me out. I felt a responsibility to let prospective parents know that when all else fails, Carlbrook might be a good choice. It was for us.
I'm surprised you have chased me off. You had a willing player.
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On 2006-04-11 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
But, your whole argument about treating him myself is ludicrous...
This statement is loony. Nobody said "treat him." They said "work with him" while he went to outpatient treatment.
If he wanted out of your house so bad, why didn't he just get emancipated? It would be the end of your problem and his.
"
You are an asshole.
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Good comment (the asshole one). What these folks don't understand is that some teens have high ambitions and the parents know that getting them back on track and out of the anger/addiction cycle is the way to help them reach these goals. You don't see the kids from Carlbrook, ASR, Oakley etc bitching all day on the message boards because they are in college or in productive activities. Even the graduates who are NOT successful- and there are plenty- are not sitting around here blaming the school.
My kid never asked to be emancipated. That wouldn't have served him very well. Our kids are the most important thing in the world to us. The money spent on a program that kept them safe and helped them move past some emotional issues was well worth it.
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He is operating from some sort of abstract thinking model where if a few of the staff got degrees from an online program, or if the school hasn't finished the accrediation process, your kid must be being abused or you have wasted all your money.
A bit of hyperbole, no?
I don't think all programs abuse all kids. I've never thought that.
I do know that the way these businesses operate is detrimental (in general) to the development of children onto functioning adults. There is plenty of valid scientific evidence that proves this, but there is none that show this brand of "help" helps.
I still would like to see anyone refute what I say with objectively verifiable data. When and if my opinion becomes invalidated I'd be left no choice but to find another answer. It just hasn't happened because many of you respond with red-herrings, strawmen, post-hoc fallacies and ad hominem attacks, yet you offer no real substantive commentary.
At this point, however, I am left with my education, my training and several years of working in residential treatment to bring to bear on this topic. "Don't believe your eyes. Believe me," doesn't work on me.
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Dysfunction,
I, and many others I assume, don't care what you think. We are here to provide balance for parents searching for information. Hopefully we'll save a few kids from going to abusive programs. Really, if you think about it rationally, we are on the same side. We both want the same thing. Carlbrook is not abusive and it did some of our kids a world of good.
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On 2006-04-11 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Good comment (the asshole one). What these folks don't understand is that some teens have high ambitions and the parents know that getting them back on track and out of the anger/addiction cycle is the way to help them reach these goals. You don't see the kids from Carlbrook, ASR, Oakley etc bitching all day on the message boards because they are in college or in productive activities. Even the graduates who are NOT successful- and there are plenty- are not sitting around here blaming the school.
My kid never asked to be emancipated. That wouldn't have served him very well. Our kids are the most important thing in the world to us. The money spent on a program that kept them safe and helped them move past some emotional issues was well worth it."
Well said. Unless you have parented a teen in one of these situations its hard to understand how it is to have one at risk. You did the right thing, the proof is in the results. I havent seen many graduates from ASR, Carlbrook and Oakley on this board either and I have been here, on and off, for a year. You dont have to take criticism from someone who hasant been in your situation. They are just poking you with a sharp stick because they hate to hear the success stories.
Hang in there.
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Thanks, Who. Parents and kids that have had success at Carlbrook are hearing about this site and hopefully all of us will keep posting our truth.
I'll be quite happy when Carlbrook has been around long enough for someone to put out a proper study to prove what we already know.
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Number of people you're fooling by responding to your own posts: 0
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Dear Mr. Woodbury,
I know you are probably very busy, but I just wanted to take the time to tell you how thankful I am for the type of work you do- it saved my life. My name is Rico xxxx and I am from Phoenix, Arizona. Like many other teenagers that you work with, I was not on a good path, confused, and out of control. My parents started seeing Miriam Bodin in Northern California, and I was sent to the Second Nature Wilderness Program in Utah. After working with Dr. Matt Hoag there, I went to the Carlbrook School in Southern Virginia and graduated this past May 2005. As I said earlier, the eighteen months I spent there saved my life. I just want to say that Carlbrook is a very special place to me, and I hope it keeps running for a long time- I read on your website that Cedu closed down, and I hope that that never will happen to Carlbrook. While I was at Carlbrook I got to work with so many awesome adults such as Tim Brace, Jonathan Gurney, Matthew Lovell, Robert Somers, and so many awesome other people. I just wanted to write you a note because when I visited your website, I can see that you care about so many kids, and I respect what you do a lot. Thank you for your time, and thank you for caring about us teenagers so much.
Sincerely,
Rico A. Moreno
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Karen's been busy today!!! Its funny you say you are done and not coming back, and then return the next day. Same shit every week.... god bless fornits, the greatest source of free entertainment around!!!! You must realize the amount of parents who will read through this thread and understand who is talking to who is close to zero, right????? What page is this thread on now?? LOL Don't kid yourself that you are here to "provide balance to parents", Karen. What is your real motivation for coming here day after day? You could reach a lot more parents by other means, you do know this right? At first I juts thought you were a bitch, then I thought you were a little neurotic, but I now seriously worry about your sanity!!! Yes, Karen, I am worried about you!!! I don't know what we'd do around here without you. Maybe there is an adult program out there for you?? :lol: :lol: :lol: You are the Overlordd of fornits.... I read that's why you came over here, after his "invasion" of strugglingtrolls... right? So why have you become what you hate so much?? Irony, aisle seven.... cleanup on aisle seven.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 2&forum=37 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 7&forum=37 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11137&forum=37)
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Oh look, little Lukie and the other boys have come out to play!
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Isn't it interesting that when something good is said about Carlbrook we have to return to the Karen thing. You're not fooling anyone and we're not going away.
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Since you are an MSW you know what projection is. Do you believe it is possible that when you you said "your son chose Carlbrook" that it could be a projection on your part? If you can tell me, how did you contribute to his acting out? It might be informative as advice to other parents surfing this sight.
What I can tell you is that if your child were doing drugs, you would be the last to know. What is fascinating is how deep the emotional disconnect is between parent and child.
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I didn't know he was doing drugs. In fact, his father drug tested him (hair analysis) and called me with the results. I am certainly not projecting. I didn't want him to go. I contributed to his acting out by being passive and permissive. Sorry, puppy, we always did and always will have a connection. Please try not to project your own bad relationships onto everybody else.
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I just reread your post, Puppy. I'm not sure if you were accusing us (me and my son) of no connection or all teens and parents in general. If it is the latter I'm sorry I reacted without thinking it through.
I can tell you this- until you have a kid like this, you have zero credebility with those of us who have BTDT.
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One last thing...HE CHOSE CARLBROOK. I wanted him to go to traditional boarding school. Please quit making assumptions. You don't know us.
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My kid didn't choose it. He fought it kicking and screaming all the way. He now agrees there was no other option. He had already been kicked out of regular boarding school. It wasn't summer camp- there were lots of rules and restrictions. That's the way things have to be at a place filled with kids who have defied authority to the point where they can no longer live in their homes or communities. These kids lost the right to have internet access, cell phones, cars and girlfriends/boyfriends. They had abused enough privileges that they landed in wilderness and then Carlbrook. He's been out a couple of years now and moved on with his life. He still has many close friends from Carlbrook. Sorry-he doesn't hate us for sending him. He knows he got himself there and he earned his way out.
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On 2006-04-11 15:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thanks, Who. Parents and kids that have had success at Carlbrook are hearing about this site and hopefully all of us will keep posting our truth.
I'll be quite happy when Carlbrook has been around long enough for someone to put out a proper study to prove what we already know.
"
It helps when you have a third party, professionals, come in and do an assessment/study. ASR was approached by a couple of people who wanted to study their therapeutic model and get a sense of how the kids did and what they had to go thru during their stay there. Dave Marcus, who won a Pulitzer prize for writing, spent four years on this project and wrote a book on the lives of several kids that he followed thru the program. V. Shapiro (Colgate University) also performed a study on the effectiveness of the ASR program and summarized her findings in a paper.
http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_p ... hapiro.pdf (http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
http://davemarcus.com/ (http://davemarcus.com/)
When you get studies like this it transcends any petty arguments on what university a person gets their diploma from and whether they have a masters degree or a bachelors, we all know it comes down to compassion and finding people who know how to help others and want to make a difference in a Childs life and the people who work at these places really care and want the best for the children.
These people who come here and go line item by line item and try to discredit the schools employees because they didn?t attend Harvard or Yale and claim to be of the same profession are not fooling anyone. If they were truly professional themselves they would contact them directly and ask them why they choose to work there, but instead they lack the professional courage and smear their names on the internet and discredit their hard work and jeopardize their career paths.
I understand a good debate, but will never understand why someone will undermine and cut the legs off someone of their own profession so publicly, in my opinion it is cowardly.
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First of all, he is credentialized, and did it professionally for many years. Second you are generalizing about the severity of behavior and whether apropriate measures were taken before incarceration. For example the kids who were in brat camp didn't seem to have any intervention before wildreness camp. Some of these kids are dumped because their parents want them out of the way. Other parents have a threshold of provocation Shirly Temple would cross. The limit of provocation often runs along cultural,religious, and geographical boundaries. Your assumption that before a teen enters residential treatment all other options have been exhausted is absolutely false. The marketing of these residential programs are dishonest, filled with bogus surveys, corrupt educational consultants, and sham research. But you did score one major "tour de force" And that is your extroadinarily compelling hypothosis that DJ has no expertise in family dynamics becuase he never had teenage children. I am writing to the American Medical Association to have all oncologists decertified unless they have had cancer. He or she used the same perspicacity to incarcerate their child.
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Unfortunantly the only objective assessment Shapiro uses indicates that her best possilble sample is clinically depressed, believes that they have no control over their lives, have horrendous relationships with parents, with scores that are clinically pathological as far as conduct. And 70% of those surveyed use drugs. That doesn't include the binge drinkers. I will concede to your side the huge ancedotale survey of four people David Marcus writes about. I want you to know I am a fair guy.
I am glad your around. Makes the forum interesting.
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We can both point out specifics but V. Shapiros conclusion was:
V. Shapiros ?My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective. ?
Badpuppy, Many people on this forum believe there has never been a child ever who benefited from any program. Like you said yourself in another post ?Whenever you have a 100% satisfaction rating you have to be deeply suspicious of the validity of the instrument. If Jesus Christ came down from heaven and healed the sick he wouldn't get a 100% rating.?
Kids are getting better and benefiting from these places, it cant be denied !! Not 100% of them but many and it is amazing that there are people who see the evidence but prefer to attack the messenger instead. Why is this? Its not like there are many kids from ASR, Carlbrook etc who come here to say they are doing poorly. Hell I can remember at least 10 kids who wanted to burn down my high school after graduation, not many jump for joy over their education during the teen years.
Why do people attack the credentials of the people working at these places? Many colleges have on-line diploma programs (they never took a second to look before hurting someone), who are we to judge which schools are better? Why be unprofessional and a coward and smear some kids name who is trying to do some good for other kids and learn a profession? I just don?t get it, there must be a hidden agenda to just hurt people this way publicly. Why not contact them privately with their concerns?
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Many people on this forum believe there has never been a child ever who benefited from any program.
Oh, what horrible close-minded people reside in this shithole known as fornits, thanks for that warning!
Kids are getting better and benefiting from these places, it cant be denied !!
That would be true if you had a 0.0000% success rating, very reassuring.
:roll:
Not 100% of them but many
Well then, how many -- what percentage?
and it is amazing that there are people who see the evidence but prefer to attack the messenger instead. Why is this?
You are an asshole.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 900#187263 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10982&forum=9&start=900#187263)
Good comment (the asshole one).
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 900#187264 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10982&forum=9&start=900#187264)
I haven't seen any evidence of anything. I see the namecalling coming from the pro-Carlbrook side. Could this be Karen?
Its not like there are many kids from ASR, Carlbrook etc who come here to say they are doing poorly.
Haven't seen any stop by and say anything positive, either.
Hell I can remember at least 10 kids who wanted to burn down my high school after graduation, not many jump for joy over their education during the teen years.
So, you feel Carlbrook is a 'normal' high school environment? Was your high school similar in nature? Mine sure wasn't.
Why do people attack the credentials of the people working at these places?
Because they are entrusted with the safety of children and are unregulated. I haven't seen attacking, only inquiries. As a parent I'd think you'd understand this concept.
Many colleges have on-line diploma programs (they never took a second to look before hurting someone), who are we to judge which schools are better?
Concerned and cautious parents.
Why be unprofessional and a coward and smear some kids name who is trying to do some good for other kids and learn a profession?
Can you link me to the smearing, I must have missed that? How sympathetic a picture you paint, aparently Calrbrook employs 'kids' now?
I just don?t get it, there must be a hidden agenda to just hurt people this way publicly. Why not contact them privately with their concerns?
Yes, this forum is inhabitated by evil little devils who plot the demise of Carlbrook -- please. No, this is normal scrutiny which any parent should show when placing their child in anyone else's care.
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On 2006-04-11 20:31:00, TheWho wrote:
"We can both point out specifics but V. Shapiros conclusion was:
V. Shapiros ?My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective. ?
Badpuppy, Many people on this forum believe there has never been a child ever who benefited from any program. Like you said yourself in another post ?Whenever you have a 100% satisfaction rating you have to be deeply suspicious of the validity of the instrument. If Jesus Christ came down from heaven and healed the sick he wouldn't get a 100% rating.?
Kids are getting better and benefiting from these places, it cant be denied !! Not 100% of them but many and it is amazing that there are people who see the evidence but prefer to attack the messenger instead. Why is this? Its not like there are many kids from ASR, Carlbrook etc who come here to say they are doing poorly. Hell I can remember at least 10 kids who wanted to burn down my high school after graduation, not many jump for joy over their education during the teen years.
Why do people attack the credentials of the people working at these places? Many colleges have on-line diploma programs (they never took a second to look before hurting someone), who are we to judge which schools are better? Why be unprofessional and a coward and smear some kids name who is trying to do some good for other kids and learn a profession? I just don?t get it, there must be a hidden agenda to just hurt people this way publicly. Why not contact them privately with their concerns?
"
Ok, SHE (and is she an authority?) says it could be effective. Zippadedoda.
She says changes can be made - nobody contested that! We contested that it wont LAST, and not without long term issues from the methods they use to create the changes. Also, NONE of her data has anything to do with how they are 3-5 years after the program... whats your point?
She did not, however, prove that its not detremental to development. What she concludes is hardly empirical. She doesnt have enough data to say much of anything per her own admission, and her data consists of what parents and students told her.
Theres no control group, there is no real data sample here, just potentially (and most likely) very biased surveys and such given to kids in and after the program and to the parents. Now, how would you remove the possible influence that might happen considering if you say anything but what the parents/program want to hear you might get sent back?
Regardless, what she said ASR uses is, infact, abusive! What is your answer to that? Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 620#175625 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2826&forum=9&start=620#175625) <- :wave: for those who missed what I said like two months ago :roll:
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On 2006-04-11 20:31:00, TheWho wrote:
Kids are getting better and benefiting from these places, it cant be denied !! Not 100% of them but many and it is amazing that there are people who see the evidence but prefer to attack the messenger instead. Why is this?
Because so many of us had to choose between being excluded from our families or humoring their parent's fondly held beliefs attributing our successes to those programs.
Why are you so bent on slaying the messenger?
To regard Christ as God, and to pray to him, are to my mind the greatest possible sacrilege.
--Leo Tolstoy, Russian revolutionary
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On 2006-04-11 18:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"One last thing...HE CHOSE CARLBROOK. I wanted him to go to traditional boarding school. Please quit making assumptions. You don't know us."
Oh, we know you perfectly well Karen. :wink:
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On 2005-09-14 09:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Dysfunction Junction & Antigen,
Thank you for the info. It will help with my research for the letter of complaint. I am appalled that the NASW would advertise a job opening for this type of program. It demonstrates that a large portion of American society is clueless about these teen programs. I plan on cancelling my NASW membership, if the Carlbrook job advertisement is not removed from their website.
I have strong feelings about these teen programs, and have familiarity with Synanon based crap. I worked (pre-grad school) for an atrotious TC in upstate NY. It was an eye opener. I made several CPS reports, due to witnessing some abusive stuff. But this did nothing to shake the system. It seems that many of these programs remain in existence due to tight political connections, good lawyers, and lots of coin. It makes me sick.
LMSW Woman
(Who keeps ranting about credentials of clinicians)
"
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On 2005-09-14 08:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-13 16:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I see degrees from major universities such as U of Maine, Furman, U of Kentucky and Wash U. This appears to be a faculty with pretty impressive credentials, which doesn't say anything about the BM program or how the staff interacts with the kids."
I am a licensed clinical practitioner with over 10 years experience in the mental health field. Sorry, I disagree. These schools do not have impressive clinical programs. They rank at the bottom. A program that charges around $5000 per month per student could afford to hire seasoned clinicians who have graduated from top clinical programs (ie: Columbia University, Smith College, Stamford, UCLA, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, Boston College, Fordham University, NYU, etc.). Carlbrook is not a prisoner of low pay Medicaid reimbursement, like most programs. Yet, for some reason, this program hires the bottom of the barrel. Perhaps their budget favors the "Board of Regents" staff over the clinical staff? This would explain the unimpressive clinical credentials."
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On 2005-09-14 15:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-14 11:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook is an excellent program with a reputable therapeutic staff. Any parents who are researching this school should go to http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) and post in the program section and ask for information. The information on this site is way off base and posted by disgruntled kids and adults who have no idea what they are talking about.
As you can see from other posts in this forum, these are a bunch of crazies who think all emotional growth programs are abusive.
Do not base any decisions on the crap posted on this site. Visit the school, meet the staff and make an informed decision."
Carlbrook has no business advertising itself as a therapeutic place for kids with emotional and substance abuse issues. For example, they are not licensed by the Virginia Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse. You can look up licensed mental health and substance abuse programs here: http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp (http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp)
Who is crazy? The critics? Not based upon my research! Parents who send kids here do so at their own risk. There is minimal outside oversight at this facility. This program (because it is for-profit and nonreliant upon taxpayer funding, Medicaid, and private insurance) has a lot of freedom to "therapize" kids as they see fit. Carlbrook and its practitioners are not beholden to the same regulations as licensed providers.
They claim to treat kids with emotional problems. Why is there no psychiatrist (MD) on staff? Why is there only 1 licensed clinician in a long list of clinicians ("advisors")?
For $5700+ per month, I could think of research proven effective, safe, and less restrictive ways to treat kids with problems. And the parents would have more money in their pockets.
Emotional growth programs? Wilderness Therapy?They don't teach that garbage in any reputable, ethical, clinical graduate program. Why? Because it is NOT research proven effective.
LMSW Woman
"
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On 2005-09-16 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How sad that all these type A Parents have kids growing up in a "therapeutic" community.
Look in the mirror, parents.
YOU, not your child, are a failure. You are hyper-over-controlling losers.
Can you imagine what it feels like to be YOUR kid? Stuck in a high-priced institutionalized boarding school so your parents don't have to see or hear you?
What a sick, twisted way to raise children.
How proud you all must be.
:smokin:
"
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Hopefully we'll save a few kids from going to abusive programs.
Well, this we can surely agree upon. I genuinely hope that this is the case.
I see The Who (who supports programs that kill children - read his posts) is still clinging to the "Shapiro life raft." What a joke.
Who, it's like you have tourette's syndrome and all you can say is "V. Shapiro of Colgate University," as if she were faculty or some authority. Who, the more you post, the more you vicariously smear those on your side. You are a terrible representative and an even worse debator. At least some of the other posters here have some sense.
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On 2006-04-11 18:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My kid didn't choose it. He fought it kicking and screaming all the way. He now agrees there was no other option. He had already been kicked out of regular boarding school. It wasn't summer camp- there were lots of rules and restrictions. That's the way things have to be at a place filled with kids who have defied authority to the point where they can no longer live in their homes or communities. These kids lost the right to have internet access, cell phones, cars and girlfriends/boyfriends. They had abused enough privileges that they landed in wilderness and then Carlbrook. He's been out a couple of years now and moved on with his life. He still has many close friends from Carlbrook. Sorry-he doesn't hate us for sending him. He knows he got himself there and he earned his way out. "
I am guessing you probably had all your kids in boarding school... am I wrong? You are the ultimate control freak parent, sucks for your kids. I'm sure they look great on paper though.
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On 2006-04-12 06:49:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
Hopefully we'll save a few kids from going to abusive programs.
Well, this we can surely agree upon. I genuinely hope that this is the case.
I see The Who (who supports programs that kill children - read his posts) is still clinging to the "Shapiro life raft." What a joke.
Who, it's like you have tourette's syndrome and all you can say is "V. Shapiro of Colgate University," as if she were faculty or some authority. Who, the more you post, the more you vicariously smear those on your side. You are a terrible representative and an even worse debator. At least some of the other posters here have some sense.
"
Hopefully we'll save a few kids from going to abusive programs.
Well, this we can surely agree upon. I genuinely hope that this is the case.
Yes, I think this is something we all have in common, finding and choosing non abusive programs for the kids and keep the pressure on to improve them.
I see The Who (who supports programs that kill children - read his posts) is still clinging to the "Shapiro life raft." What a joke.
It is sad that there have been so few studies done on the schools and clinging to a life raft, when put into perspective, isn?t that bad when others are treading water.
Who, it's like you have tourette's syndrome
You really think you make a credible stand as a proclaimed ?Mental health professional? when you make comments like this, belittling people with tourettes, depression, bipolar etc.? Didn?t you learn one of the basic rules of the mental health industry is to have some respect for other people and their conditions? There are probably many people who post here who suffer from some sort of condition and struggle on a daily basis, its immature to make light of this or use it against them.
and all you can say is "V. Shapiro of Colgate University," as if she were faculty or some authority. Who, the more you post, the more you vicariously smear those on your side.
I wasn?t aware we took sides, I just follow the data and studies. I will look for some supporting data that says ASR and Carlbrook are harmful to kids, but I doubt it exists because you would have presented it already instead of trying to discredit the schools employees as a way to say the schools are ineffective. It is getting harder and harder to find Universities who don?t offer on-line studies.
I never introduced The Shapiro paper originally and it was only brought up because you asked for supporting studies.
You are a terrible representative and an even worse debator.
I can see why you never considered going into career counseling or self esteem building. But anyway, I think I mentioned that a few months ago, not one of my strong points, I guess that makes you the Master debater.
At least some of the other posters here have some sense.
Well, that is one good thing, sounds like you are starting to recognize the success stories as well as the unsuccessful ones. I?ll take that as a baby step forward for all of us.
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Man, this guy is a fool. He's got over a hundred pages of the same line over and over in the ASR thread, now he's polluting this one.
Good thing this butthole has certified programs as "non-abusive," even though he's never been to them and knows nothing about them other than what some parents posted (Carlbrook).
I think The Who is mentally ill for suggesting that an interpersonal discipline like counseling can be learned online. This gives a real clue as to his level of functioning: very low.
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The day that I need The Who to validate anything about me or the treatment business (or anything else other than "customer service" for that matter), I'll gladly and willingly shoot myself in the head.
At that point I will have no reason to linger here on this earth - I will officially be devoid of any intrinsic value.
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How do you have any knowledge of the status of my relationships? As far as drug use goes I was referring to his current usage. (with the assumption he is not living in your house. If you think he would tell you about his current drug useage we are inhabiting different planets. The emotional disconnect I am generalizing about shows up in the ASR study. Kids measure in the clinically depressed range but the parents measure their daily happiness at 5.6 on a scale of seven. And relationships with parents were in the bottom two percent. Forgive me for being skeptical about his choice for Carlbrook but kids usually want places where they can develope romantic interest in the opposite sex. They usually do not want the stigma of having to go to a school for behavior problems. He may have choosen Carlbrook, but please understand my skepticism. Your his mother, so you will always have a connection. But I am skeptical about how much you are in touch with his feelings.
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He still submits to drug testing by his father. He's not taking drugs. I know that saddens lots of people around here because they are so hoping he will fail. I read through this whole thread last night and found a posting that actually may be his...I'll have to ask him. He credits Carlbrook for turning his life around.
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Getting a little confused with the Anon posts. The bottom line here is that the US governement has concluded that residential treatment is ineffective. Based on their findings that fact that your child benifited makes you the exception not the rule. Based on your hypothosis the only people who have credability have teens like yours, you have excluded the opinion of most credentialized professionals such as the adolescant psychiatrist whom referred you to Carlbrook The WWASP torture centers have many testimonials to the great results of their system. Parents shouldn't be too swayed either by parent testimonials or Fornits. But you should pay attention to the unbiased experts that work for your government. That being said, I do have emphathy for the parents who tried to make the best choice possible for their kids, did the best due dilligence, given their ability, and chose Carlbrook. They could have done a whole lot worse. I will never understand or respect any parent that sends their child to a WWASP torture chamber. [ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-12 14:04 ]
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On 2006-04-12 12:35:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"The day that I need The Who to validate anything about me or the treatment business (or anything else other than "customer service" for that matter), I'll gladly and willingly shoot myself in the head.
At that point I will have no reason to linger here on this earth - I will officially be devoid of any intrinsic value.
"
I am not trying to validate or invalidate any part of you. I know of 2 anon posters here who suffer from bi-polar disorder and another who is taking medication for depression (I am sure there are many more) and to use their conditions against them to invalidate their viewpoint or insinuate that it is in any way humorous is just wrong and insensitive and throws into question that you really are what you say you are. I think a 3 day on-line course would teach one more than that
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"I am guessing you probably had all your kids in boarding school... am I wrong? You are the ultimate control freak parent, sucks for your kids."
This may be one of the stupider things you have said, which is really saying something. A control-freak parent would NEVER send their kids to a "regular" boarding school. Your kid has tons of freedom there and the parent gives up almost all control (except financial). Boarding school is an awesome experience and offers educational, social and extra-curricular options that are fantastic for the kids. In this day and age, kids at boarding schools are there by their own choice, not because the parents are trying to get rid of them. Therapeutic schools are entirely different.
DJ-you really are a disgrace to whatever profession you purport to be part of. To make fun of Tourette's is inexcusable.
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O, great...The US GOVERNMENT, I can't believe you'd resort to that. You've got to be kidding. Let's ask the people of New Orleans if the US Government's opinion is worth anything. FEMA, Army Corps of Engineers and the god forsaken surgeon general...not relaible sources these days. Give me a break. Hah!!!! Unbiased engineers built the levee systems! What an absolute scream. Finally, one of you has actually made me laugh!
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Do you honestly think DJ has a real job? If he does, he can't be all that effective when he posts on Fornits day and night. Thank goodness he's not in private practice, he's way too cynical and arrogant.
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DJ claims to be a "mental health professional", which is very frightening. I see some real OCD going on with him. He is obsessed with bringing down Hidden Lake, which shockingly has NOT shut its doors, despite all his predictions of its demise.
He claims to be an adult, yet he posts on the most vile, childish threads on this forum and takes great pleasure in attacking others. BUT-if you should dare to attack him or point out what a moron he is, it is an "ad hominem attack". That's his favorite big word.
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Obiviously in your world the marketing sights of Lon Woodbury and WWASP torture centers have so much more credability. That's because of their superior education at Argosy University and Radford College. Really puts med school at Harvard, and clincal programs at NYU and Columbia to shame.
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I do have emphathy for the parents who tried to make the best choice possible for their kids, did the best due dilligence, given their ability, and chose Carlbrook. They could have done a whole lot worse.
Thank you. Fortunately it worked. It is a much better place than the WWASP schools. It's a much better place than most schools period. I'm not saying you don't think you have "empathy" for us, but until you have been put in the position of sending your child away (especially when you don't want to) you'll never know how it really feels. I'm also not saying that I wouldn't trust the opinion of a true professional that hasn't had kids, or more specifically troubled kids. I just can't believe there are any true professional posting here. The true professionals don't have time for this. I hardly have time to post here and I only work a few hours a day. I (like DJ) hold an MSW. I'm realistic enough to know what my limitations are. That's why I consulted experts.
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"Really puts med school at Harvard, and clincal programs at NYU and Columbia to shame."
Funny you should mention those schools. The Dean of Faculty at Carlbrook has a degree from Harvard (JD) and is a Masters degree candidate at Columbia.
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By the way, Argosy is in Chicago and has some good programs. It has some on-line classes. Most Universities have on-line classes. Don't be an education snob. Some people may live in remote areas and don't have Mommies and Daddies that will pay for them to go to school at NYU and Harvard. It doesn't mean they aren't good at what they do.
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At least they are doing something productive on-line instead of program bashing on-line.
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =30#184277 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14668&forum=7&start=30#184277)
This was one of DJ's other stabs at humor.
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On 2006-04-11 21:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
<
Its not like there are many kids from ASR, Carlbrook etc who come here to say they are doing poorly.
Haven't seen any stop by and say anything positive, either.
<
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#121802 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10982&forum=9&Sort=U&start=0#121802)
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I just went to the Carlbrook Website. I found this list of Advisors. I see some well known schools listed here as well as some good experience. You found one guy that's trying to get his Master's degree from Argosy because he lives in the middle of nowhere, doing what he is committed to doing. This is the best list I've seen at any TBS. The academic faculty is better than I thought it would be too. There's nothing wrong with this list.
Advising
Julie Dyer, B.S., M.S.
Associate Director
Ms. Dyer holds both a Bachelor of Science degree in Psychology from Florida Atlantic University and a Master of Science degree in Clinical Psychology from Radford University.She has worked as an adolescent therapist for several years, first with young females at Tekoa Residential Treatment Center and later as a substance abuse counselor at the Division of Addiction Services in Richmond.
Bridget Gitthens, B.A., M.A.
Associate Director
Ms. Martinson holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and a Master of Arts in Marriage and Family Therapy from Appalachian State University.During her years of counseling experience she has served both individuals and families in the areas of substance abuse, domestic violence and sexual assault.Her recent work experience includes positions at OASIS and Kaiser Permanente.
Jennifer McArthur, B.A., M.S.W.
Associate Director
Ms. McArthur, who holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from Warren Wilson College and a Master of Social Work from Brigham Young University, has worked with adolescents for several years, including at-risk youth and socio-economically challenged populations.Her experience includes counseling positions with Wasatch Mental Health, Trend Community Mental Health, and Alldredge Academy.
Amy R. McCormick, B.A., M.S.W., L.M.S.W.
Associate Director
A member of the National Association of Social Workers, Ms. McCormick graduated magna cum laude with her Bachelor of Arts in Psychology and Master of Social Work degrees from the University of Maine. Prior to to joining the Carlbrook team, Ms. McCormick served as a Residence Director at the University of Maine and as a Program Manager at Shaw House, a residential facility for adolescents.
Kalyn Sherwood, B.A., M.S.W.
Associate Director
Ms. Sherwood received both her Bachelor of Arts and her Master of Social Work (Children, Youth and Families concentration) degrees from the University of Washington. She has worked as an adolescent counselor and case manager at the Meridian School and the Center for Career Alternatives in Seattle, WA, and most recently worked as an Intervention Specialist at West Seattle High School.
Ebony Bailey, B.S, M.A.
Advisor
A member of the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy, Ms. Bailey received her Bachelor of Science from the University of Tennessee at Knoxville and her Master of Arts in Counseling from East Tennessee State University.Her experience includes counseling positions at Watauga Behavioral Health Services and Porter-Leath Children?s Center in Memphis, TN.
Marcela Eckles, Mgr.
Advisor
Fluent in four languages, Ms. Eckles holds a Mgr. in Psychology (Master of Arts equivalent) from the Faculty of Philosophy, Presov University in the Slovak Republic.Her experience working with children includes her most recent employment as a psychologist at Children?s Home in Zitavce, where she specialized in psychological assessment and individual and group counseling.
Anna Gerard, B.A., M.S.W.
Advisor
With a Bachelor of Arts from the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor and a Master of Social Work degree from Washington University in St. Louis, Ms. Gerard has experience working with a variety of client populations, including children and adolescents.Most recently she worked at the St. Vincent Home for Children in St. Louis, where she specialized in case management and crisis intervention.
Trevor Grimes, B.A., M.A.
Advisor
Mr. Grimes received his Bachelor of Arts in Sociology from the State University of New York at Geneseo and his Master of Arts in Social Work from the State University of New York at Stony Brook. His counseling experience includes work in educational and clinical settings, including the Lindenhurst School District (NY) and the Dept. of Family Medicine at Stony Brook University Hospital.
Michael Lambright, B.A., M.S.W.
Advisor
Mr. Lambright holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from the College of New Rochelle and a Master of Social Work from Yeshiva University. He has several years of experience working with students and families in crisis, including counseling, case management and clinical social work positions at Weston United, Inc., Project Renewal, and Phelps Memorial Hospital in New York.
Katrina Lindholm, B.A., M.S.W.
Advisor
A Virginia native, Ms. Lindholm received her Bachelor of Arts degree in Sociology and Communication from Virginia Tech University and her Master of Social Work degree from California State University.Prior to joining Carlbrook, she worked as a literacy instructor and community support facilitator in Northern California, most recently at the California chapter of the National Association of Social Workers.
Johan Madson, B.A., M.Ed.
Advisor
With a Bachelor of Arts from Oberlin College and a Master of Education in Human Development Counseling from Vanderbilt University, Mr. Madson?s experience includes several school counseling positions in Tennessee and North Carolina (in both public and private settings). Most recently he was employed by the Office of Residence Life at Portland State University in Oregon.
Darren Miller, B.A., M.S.W.
Advisor
Mr. Miller has been working as a counselor with adolescents and their families for many years, most recently as a school-based therapist for the Worcester County Health Department in Maryland. A graduate of the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS), Mr. Millerreceived his Bachelor of Arts from High Point University in North Carolina and his Master of Social Work from Salisbury University.
Samantha Olive, B.S., M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Olive holds a Bachelor of Science in Psychology from Mary Washington College and a Master of Social Work from Virginia Commonwealth University.With several years of experience providing both inpatient and outpatient services to a variety of populations, she has held clinical positions at the Medical College of Virginia, the Memorial Child Guidance Clinic, and the Virginia Health Center.
Daniel Perry, B.S., M.A., L.L.P.C.
Advisor
Mr. Perry holds a Bachelor of Science in Criminal Justice from Lake Superior State University in Michigan and a Master of Arts in Counseling from Central Michigan University.He has worked with adolescents for several years in both residential and private practice settings, and was previously the director of a day-treatment program for adolescents with substance abuse problems.
Mindi Perry, B.S., M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Perry earned a Bachelor of Science in Sociology from Lake Superior State University and a Master of Social Work from Grand Valley State University.With extensive experience in individual and family counseling, she has worked with Child and Family Services and Community Mental Health of Northeast Michigan, and most recently was a behavioral health consultant at Alcona Health Center.
Natalie Sisson, B.S., M.S.W.
Advisor
Ms. Sisson received her Bachelor of Science in Social Work from Illinois State University and later graduated cum laude with a Master of Social Work from the University of Georgia. A member of the National Association of Social Workers, she has previously worked with adolescents as a residential counselor at Chestnut Health Systems and most recently as a therapist at Peace Place.
Mich Suyama, B.A., B.S., M.Ed., Ed.S.
Advisor
Mr. Suyama holds both Bachelor of Science and Bachelor of Arts degrees, as well as Master of Education and Education Specialist degrees in Marriage and Family Counseling from the University of Florida.He has worked with children for several years, most recently as a substance abuse counselor at Gateway Community Services and as a child therapist at Meridian Behavioral Healthcare.
Nathan Webber, B.A., M.A. candidate
Advisor
Mr. Webber holds a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from the University of Toledo and is a candidate for a Master of Arts in Professional Counseling from Argosy University.He has worked with adolescents for several years, first as a Counselor at Three Springs and then as a Therapist at Cumberland Mental Health.A member of the National Guard, he completed a tour of duty in Iraq in 2003.
Alicia Woodworth, B.A, M.S., L.P.C.
Advisor
A Licensed Professional Counselor, Ms. Woodworth earned a Bachelor of Arts in Communication from Western Michigan University and a Master of Science in Clinical Counseling Psychology from Francis Marion University.For the past several years she has worked with adolescents as a Clinical Counselor at Circle Park Behavioral Health Services, conducting individual, group and family sessions.
Frank A. Chesno, B.S., Ph.D.
Consulting Psychologist
Dr. Chesno, a licensed clinical psychologist with almost 30 years experience working with families, earned his doctorate in clinical psychology from the University of Georgia, with pre-doctoral training completed at the College of William and Mary.He is a member of the American Psychological Association and has served as president of the South Carolina Academy of Professional Psychologists.Currently, Dr. Chesno serves as Director of Behavioral Medicine Services at Baptist Medical Center.
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On 2006-04-12 13:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I am guessing you probably had all your kids in boarding school... am I wrong? You are the ultimate control freak parent, sucks for your kids."
This may be one of the stupider things you have said, which is really saying something. A control-freak parent would NEVER send their kids to a "regular" boarding school. Your kid has tons of freedom there and the parent gives up almost all control (except financial). Boarding school is an awesome experience and offers educational, social and extra-curricular options that are fantastic for the kids. In this day and age, kids at boarding schools are there by their own choice, not because the parents are trying to get rid of them. Therapeutic schools are entirely different.
DJ-you really are a disgrace to whatever profession you purport to be part of. To make fun of Tourette's is inexcusable."
Karen, you sure have a deep hatred for DJ, why? So you did put more than your son in boarding school? Yeah, I figured that.... you are pretty easy to figure out Karen. Karen... why couldn't you raise your own kids? If you were my parent I would want out too, so maybe you did them a favor.....
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On 2006-04-12 14:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Do you honestly think DJ has a real job? If he does, he can't be all that effective when he posts on Fornits day and night. Thank goodness he's not in private practice, he's way too cynical and arrogant."
Do you have a job? Lemme guess, you are a staff attorney? Karen, I am your boss, go get me some coffee!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I don't believe Karen is here. When positive points are made you have to turn to conversation to Karen. Do you have anything intelligent to offer...or are you just a pain in the ass?
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On 2006-04-12 14:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DJ claims to be a "mental health professional", which is very frightening. I see some real OCD going on with him. He is obsessed with bringing down Hidden Lake, which shockingly has NOT shut its doors, despite all his predictions of its demise.
He claims to be an adult, yet he posts on the most vile, childish threads on this forum and takes great pleasure in attacking others. BUT-if you should dare to attack him or point out what a moron he is, it is an "ad hominem attack". That's his favorite big word."
Karen's angry! :lol: :lol: :lol: (http://http://images.myspacedirect.com/media/funny/30.gif) :lol:
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On 2006-04-12 17:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't believe Karen is here. When positive points are made you have to turn to conversation to Karen. Do you have anything intelligent to offer...or are you just a pain in the ass?"
Sure thing, Karen. :wstupid:
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So where did you send your second kid if it wasn't carlbrook?? ASR... WWASPS.... ???
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I think it's funny someone who couldn't even parent their own children correctly giving so much advice to everyone about what to do with their kid. In my book, you failed as a parent.... because you couldn't or wouldn't!!!
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My kid went to Carlbrook. That's why I am looking at this site.
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So did mine, I was ripped off. Carlbrook is nothing like they advertise, I should have kept my money and raised my own kid.
Karen
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So Karen, do they give discounts for sending away multiple children??
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They did not go to the same program, I did not want them talking to each other. They must concentrate on school only, they are being groomed for entry into Ivy League schools. Something the scum that post here know nothing about, higher education.
KareninDallas
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Karen is the nigthmarish, bizarro world version of helicopter parent!! :eek:
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Anonymis- are you enjoying talking to yourself? I hope for your sake that you are not really as stupid as you appear to be.
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Oh - Karen - you are so funny! :lol:
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I hope you think I am stupid, if you considered me smart I'd be worried! :lol: :lol:
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I am friends with your kids Karen, just in case you were wondering. :wink:
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The tell me how much you suck as a parent all the time and how you hang out on this forum. They are worried about you Karen, they might put you in an old folks program!! :lol: :lol:
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and by the way, I am not stupid I have an IQ of 150 and completed law school already.
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Your point about people from little known schools possibly being good at their jobs is true. The problem with Argosy is that it doesn't lead to licensure. But the larger issue should not be obscured. The US government says that resdential treatment is ineffective. If anyone thinks that the results are biased tell me how. Until then parent testimonials are the exception not the rule[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-12 19:19 ][ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-12 19:20 ]
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The US Government... I can't believe you keep going back to that. The US Government doesn't want residential treatment to be effective... it will cost the US Government money if it is. The US Government has yet to figure out how to effectively take care of its own people.
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On 2006-04-12 18:39:00, Anonymis wrote:
"and by the way, I am not stupid I have an IQ of 150 and completed law school already. "
woo woo
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Then his father couldn't trust the program very much. He submits to tests how often? I never heard of this for an adult child living away from home. Programs test, jobs test. What a control freak his daddy is. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Your right, he needed to be faaaaar away. Mabbe when he is thirty, money bags
will give up his compulsive desire to control his son's life. but I doubt it. The bottom line still is that the US government says that your son is the excpetion, not the rule. [ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-12 20:00 ]
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Wow. Full-blown thread-jacking. People that support Carlbrook will do anything to avoid the real issues. Sad...
Whoever the genius is that compared a valid, reproducible, compilation of FIFTY YEARS of CLINICAL RESEARCH performed by some of the most prominent names in mental healthcare and clinical research by the Surgeon General to the Army Corps of Engineers' construction projects in New Orleans is about the biggest idiot I've yet encountered. What a ludicrous statement.
Talk about your red herrings.
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Nope, wrong again. (Funny, you got offended when I tried to make assumptions about your relationships.) In the transition period between Carlbrook and college we had worked on a parent/child "contract"; Carlbrook hosts a weekend long Transition Conference for both parents and kids. Our son welcomed the drug testing (which is hair analysis-several times a year.) He thought his father COULD never trust him again and he decided he would prove to him he was staying straight. Guess what, it has really helped them reconnect because the father (who has been burned badly by this kid) doesn't have fears or doubts about his drug use. The testing won't go on forever but at the moment it's working for the two of them. Badpuppy, I know you are hoping he'll screw up again---I'll let you know when we get a positive reading. And keep trusting government studies---you'll get what you deserve.
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Carlbrook's been around 4 or 5 years It's not the kind of place the government has studied or will study. You are the idiot DJ and I'm happy more people than myself are coming here to see that.
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On 2006-04-13 05:00:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"Wow. Full-blown thread-jacking. People that support Carlbrook will do anything to avoid the real issues. Sad...
Whoever the genius is that compared a valid, reproducible, compilation of FIFTY YEARS of CLINICAL RESEARCH performed by some of the most prominent names in mental healthcare and clinical research by the Surgeon General to the Army Corps of Engineers' construction projects in New Orleans is about the biggest idiot I've yet encountered. What a ludicrous statement.
Talk about your red herrings.
"
Why not try discussion? Why do you always attack the people? You act so immature, try reading up on the subjects discussed and get involved.
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On 2006-04-12 14:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DJ claims to be a "mental health professional", which is very frightening. I see some real OCD going on with him. He is obsessed with bringing down Hidden Lake, which shockingly has NOT shut its doors, despite all his predictions of its demise.
He claims to be an adult, yet he posts on the most vile, childish threads on this forum and takes great pleasure in attacking others. BUT-if you should dare to attack him or point out what a moron he is, it is an "ad hominem attack". That's his favorite big word."
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#187588 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14890&forum=41&start=0#187588)
It took TEN YEARS to see documents (proof) coming from HLA about what I've been saying for years. Call me names if you like, but once again, the EVIDENCE shows I'm right on the money.
If you have actually read what I have written, I have said many times that shutting down programs and bringing these people "to justice" is pie-in-the-sky thinking. It's not my goal.
I have always believed that education of the consumer is the only hope to curb the growth of the kiddie jail-for-hire industry.
This requires critical thought. How can a parent say "an internet degree (or no degree at all) is fine" for the person charged with children's care and the fact that a top faculty has been widely accused of child abuse for twenty years in two programs (one of which closed due to rampant abuse that he oversaw) has no bearing on their decision-making? This is irresponsible and dangerous any way you cut it up.
This is the consumer that the industry preys upon - wealthy and dangerously uneducated.
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Carlbrook has NEVER had a single complaint of abuse DJ. You know that. Maybe the guys in charge didn't approve of the abuse, invested their own money, and started a better program. I'll keep reminding everyone of that...and hope the newcomers see it.
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Sometimes when a person has surgery, their surgeon (the one they have chosen) has a "fellow" that actually performs the surgery while the head surgeon looks on. It's called TRAINING, DJ. Just because someone has not been licensed yet (or ever for that matter) does not indicate whether or not he or she will be effective or not. There are lots of people with good, solid credentials overseeing the program at Carlbrook.
Anybody listening: ALL TBS PROGRAMS ARE NOT ALIKE.
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Whoever says abuse doesn't happen at Carlbrook needs to get their facts straight.
I was raped repeatedly by the Carlbrook mascot (an apple on a stick) because I wouldn't share my box of yellow peeps with him.
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Yet one more example of intelligent discourse.
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Any other Chicago alumnists out there?
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On 2006-04-13 06:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yet one more example of intelligent discourse."
Right, and the previous 99 pages of back-and-forth bullshit was pure brilliance.
You're just jealous because the apple didn't want you.
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Happy you agree that DJ is full of it!
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On 2006-04-13 06:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Happy you agree that DJ is full of it!"
Karen is a five year old with access to a computer. Karen, go tell your parents you made a boo-boo.
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On 2006-04-13 06:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Happy you agree that DJ is full of it!"
I wouldn't know. I'm not a proctologist. It sounds like you have much more experience looking up people's asses than I do.
Whatever gets you off and pays the bills... I suppose.
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On 2006-04-13 05:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook has NEVER had a single complaint of abuse DJ. You know that. Maybe the guys in charge didn't approve of the abuse, invested their own money, and started a better program. I'll keep reminding everyone of that...and hope the newcomers see it."
And I never said that it did.
What I have said all along is that there are "red flags" here that need to be scrutinized.
Read what I wrote. Don't attribute statements to me that are not mine - that is not good academic discourse and shows weakness in your argument.
Now, let us be clear once more: my goal is to educate the consumer by reporting what I view professionally to be "red flags" indicating high potential for abuse.
Attacking me is only helping to allow potential abusive situations to continue. You are doing your part to allow abuse to happen.
Let's get together on the one thing we can agree upon: children deserve proper care.
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I always pay attention to red flags. That is why I would never send a kid to most of the other schools.
18 months of scrutiny...and I never saw anything I didn't like except for the food and a few lame dress code policies.
I did not attribute anything to you. I'm just reminding you that complaints would send up red flags.
Your little buddies out there really help discredit you and I do believe you have made valid points concerning abusive programs. Good for you - really. But, maybe your time might be better served exposing those programs instead of playing the "Karen" game. Karen's kid didn't even make it through Carlbrook. I know of at least five posters on here that have Carlbrook graduates.
DJ, also, get a grip. You attack people more than anyone on this sight. You do it in an cynical, arrogant, pseudo-intellectual way.
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"I know of at least five posters on here that have Carlbrook graduates. "
How?
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I know some of them personally.
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I do respond in kind from time to time.
Complaints are not the only red flags. Very often, before any complaints are made, there are hundreds of incidents that should have yielded a complaint or a criminal charge, but these moneybags are very adept at keeping that information out of public view.
Again, look at HLA. After ten years of abusive unethical practices, the first complaints are only now reaching the public. This is typical. It took TWENTY-FIVE years to fully document, expose and shut down CEDU.
Carlbrook gets a red flag for having a proven abuse overseer on it's executive staff (don't even think of giving the "Ken Lay" defense either, Tim was intimately involved in the day-to-day operations of CEDU and was fully aware of the abuse). In my eyes, this is inexcusable.
Will it be ten or twenty-five years more before the red flags turn into indictments? I have no idea, but I will have raised the concerns for people to evaluate. Would it surprise me that down the road this place gets hit hard for abusive practices? Not in the least - the precedents have been set.
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On 2006-04-13 06:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
DJ, also, get a grip. You attack people more than anyone on this sight. You do it in an cynical, arrogant, pseudo-intellectual way. "
Where has he done that? I've only seen well thought out, rational arguments filled with critical, independent thought.
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On 2006-04-13 07:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I know some of them personally. "
Ask them if their kids have mentioned anything to them about a mascot.
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Does Carlbrook use any kind of seminars, Life Steps or levels?
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On 2006-04-13 07:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 06:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
DJ, also, get a grip. You attack people more than anyone on this sight. You do it in an cynical, arrogant, pseudo-intellectual way. "
Where has he done that? I've only seen well thought out, rational arguments filled with critical, independent thought."
Thats beautiful, we need a little humor here.
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On 2006-04-13 07:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
Thats beautiful, we need a little humor here."
Then it shouldn't be a problem for you to pull up a post where he's done that, right?
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On 2006-04-13 07:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does Carlbrook use any kind of seminars, Life Steps or levels?"
Read the thread, please.
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On 2006-04-13 07:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 07:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does Carlbrook use any kind of seminars, Life Steps or levels?"
Read the thread, please."
I don't have time to read through 100+ pages of posts. It's a simple question asking for a simple answer.
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On 2006-04-13 07:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 07:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
Thats beautiful, we need a little humor here."
Then it shouldn't be a problem for you to pull up a post where he's done that, right?"
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#97436 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8906&forum=41&start=20#97436)
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On 2006-04-13 07:16:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"I do respond in kind from time to time.
Complaints are not the only red flags. Very often, before any complaints are made, there are hundreds of incidents that should have yielded a complaint or a criminal charge, but these moneybags are very adept at keeping that information out of public view.
Again, look at HLA. After ten years of abusive unethical practices, the first complaints are only now reaching the public. This is typical. It took TWENTY-FIVE years to fully document, expose and shut down CEDU.
Carlbrook gets a red flag for having a proven abuse overseer on it's executive staff (don't even think of giving the "Ken Lay" defense either, Tim was intimately involved in the day-to-day operations of CEDU and was fully aware of the abuse). In my eyes, this is inexcusable.
Will it be ten or twenty-five years more before the red flags turn into indictments? I have no idea, but I will have raised the concerns for people to evaluate. Would it surprise me that down the road this place gets hit hard for abusive practices? Not in the least - the precedents have been set.
"
If there were unhappy kids or parents from Carlbrook they would be posting HERE. This site is not a secret. I started monitoring Fornits when my son was still at Carlbrook. Still...not a word about abuse. But, some of the others schools have tons of kids and parents posting. Coincidence? I don't think so.
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On 2006-04-13 07:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
Then it shouldn't be a problem for you to pull up a post where he's done that, right?"
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#97436 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8906&forum=41&start=20#97436)"
You sure you want to use that one? He's addressing people that were intentionally misrepresenting things and calling him a liar. He's now pretty much been proven right if you've read any of the HLA shit that's hitting the fan right now.
And SHH has dished out her share in these little exchanges too.
Find one that doesn't involve dear Ms. Gray (SHH) and we'll take it from there.
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Help Deb.......sorry. ^^^^^^^^^
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Funny that you post this one. This lady is now one of my biggest supporters and has come to agree completely that she was snowed and had no idea of the goings-on.
You also neglected to point out that she started attcking me personally and threatening to release my identity on the board. I got upset and hammered her. We get along quite well now - especially since her thinking has done a complete 180 and she now admits HLA is an abusive, unethical facility.
BTW, she was married to the Operations Director and still had no inkling of the abuse.
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On 2006-04-13 07:50:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"Funny that you post this one. This lady is now one of my biggest supporters and has come to agree completely that she was snowed and had no idea of the goings-on.
You also neglected to point out that she started attcking me personally and threatening to release my identity on the board. I got upset and hammered her. We get along quite well now - especially since her thinking has done a complete 180 and she now admits HLA is an abusive, unethical facility.
BTW, she was married to the Operations Director and still had no inkling of the abuse.
"
I'm really glad to hear this DJ, but she sure is keeping quiet about it. She was shouting from the damn mountain tops that NO ABUSE occured at HLA, that their methods weren't destructive. If she now sees things differently why is she keeping silent? Are the kids still under HLA's control not important enough now? They were important enough then for her to be raising hell over allowing them to stay, why so quiet now? Don't the kids still count?
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On 2006-04-13 07:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 07:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 07:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Does Carlbrook use any kind of seminars, Life Steps or levels?"
Read the thread, please."
I don't have time to read through 100+ pages of posts. It's a simple question asking for a simple answer."
Yes or no will suffice.
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On 2006-04-13 07:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 07:50:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"Funny that you post this one. This lady is now one of my biggest supporters and has come to agree completely that she was snowed and had no idea of the goings-on.
You also neglected to point out that she started attcking me personally and threatening to release my identity on the board. I got upset and hammered her. We get along quite well now - especially since her thinking has done a complete 180 and she now admits HLA is an abusive, unethical facility.
BTW, she was married to the Operations Director and still had no inkling of the abuse.
"
I'm really glad to hear this DJ, but she sure is keeping quiet about it. She was shouting from the damn mountain tops that NO ABUSE occured at HLA, that their methods weren't destructive. If she now sees things differently why is she keeping silent? Are the kids still under HLA's control not important enough now? They were important enough then for her to be raising hell over allowing them to stay, why so quiet now? Don't the kids still count?"
Like many others, she's afraid of being sued, but she's working behind the scenes as we all do - contrary to your belief that all I do is rant on this board.
If you had an iota of understanding of the work I've put in on this "project" from lobbying congressmen to investigating individual cases of abuse I think you'd actually be proud of the effort.
For now, I'll just take your insults, but you'll see soon enough. It's all coming out and everyone who said I was lying is eating their words. Give it some time...
Say it ain't so if you want, but you'll have to eat it later.
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On 2006-04-13 08:10:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Like many others, she's afraid of being sued, but she's working behind the scenes as we all do - contrary to your belief that all I do is rant on this board.
If you had an iota of understanding of the work I've put in on this "project" from lobbying congressmen to investigating individual cases of abuse I think you'd actually be proud of the effort.
For now, I'll just take your insults, but you'll see soon enough. It's all coming out and everyone who said I was lying is eating their words. Give it some time...
Say it ain't so if you want, but you'll have to eat it later.
"
Relax DJ, I'm on your side. I'm not the anon who's been after you here. I've been following the HLA stuff for a while now and I'm a little irritated that she'll blow her wad in support of that place but when she realizes what's actually being done she shuts up. Scared of being sued or not, it's called owning up to your mistakes. She's kept quiet so people think she still supports that kind of shit. She could be very effective in educating people since she was one of the one's who really fell for it hook, line and sinker but she's not doing a damn thing. It wouldn't bug me so much if she hadn't been such a vocal supporter of HLA but she was. Now it's time to own up to all the shit she wrote and correct any mistakes she feels she made. It's only right.
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Yeah, I respect that. The problem though is that she was blindly supporting the program - that is, she had no real idea of what went on. The same is true now - she has come around on her opinion, but still can't offer direct comment because she really was never "in the loop."
Like many others, she is genuinely afraid of getting served and having to deal with the disruption that causes in one's life, so I don't think you'll see any public acknowledgement.
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On 2006-04-13 08:26:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"Yeah, I respect that. The problem though is that she was blindly supporting the program - that is, she had no real idea of what went on. The same is true now - she has come around on her opinion, but still can't offer direct comment because she really was never "in the loop."
Yet she felt completely justified in commenting on and harrassing anyone who dared question HLA. Fine if she doesn't want to come on here and post details she has no direct knowledge of but at the very least she should come on here and say that she realizes she's been duped or whatever other excuse she's going to put up.
Again, she could be very effective in actually DOING SOME GOOD FOR KIDS, but remains silent. How nice of her. :roll: :roll:
Selfish people supporting a selfish industry.
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On 2006-04-13 08:50:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"DJ never said she wasn't doing anything. She just isn't doing anything of a public nature. A great deal more goes on behind the scenes that is quite needed for progress towards crushing abusive programs like insects.
Agreed. I still think she has a responsibility to own up to her mistakes.
I guess the SLAPP suits are working huh? People allowing themselves to be scared into silence. I wonder how many kids were left in there because of her comments? I wonder how many were put there because of her comments? IMO, she's got a responsibility to address and clarify those comments if she has indeed had this change of opinion. She and you guys feel differently.....OK.
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I have to agree, Shh had no problem shouting from the rooftops how great HLA is, yet when she learns the truth she shuts up?
I dont think that has anything to do with her being afraid of facing a law suit, it has more to do with she's far to full of herself to acknowledge she was wrong.
She should do so and apologize to all of the people she tried to attack on here.
Cant be sued for that now can she?
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On 2006-04-13 09:27:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
It is easy to post on a message board. When that posting on a message board has possible long term consquences on your offline life I hardly see anything wrong with person weighing out the odds.
She wasn't worried at all about the kind of damage being done to kids in there while she was touting it's success. My reasoning is that since she was part of the problem, part of the responsibility for the solution falls on her.
You're right though, ultimately it IS up to her. I just think it speaks to the person she is.
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How did this turn into a discussion of some HLA supporter and her new love for DJ?
This is a Carlbrook thread. Yes, they use a program based on workshops. As has been discussed, these are non-abusive and the kids value them highly.
Karen's kid left the program early because he was admitted into a regular academic boarding school for the next fall and the Carlbrook staff kicked him out since he was a "short-timer".
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On 2006-04-13 09:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How did this turn into a discussion of some HLA supporter and her new love for DJ?
agreed, let's take that part of the discussion to the HLA forum.
This is a Carlbrook thread. Yes, they use a program based on workshops. As has been discussed, these are non-abusive and the kids value them highly.
In your opinion they're non-abusive. Some of us, with our vast experience with these kinds of places, are well aware of the severe damage the "workshops/seminars/levels" etc. can and have done to kids. That's a major red flag all by itself.
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You see, whether or not your son screws up again has nothing to do with the hypothosis of my arguement. That is that the government reviewed all of the known research in this area and concluded that residential treatment is ineffective and possibly harmful. The fact that you think I desire harm for your son is PARANOIA. If you really did have an MSW, particularly from a prestigious university, you would read the studies and tell me the flaws in research design, methodology, and why their conclusion about all the research to date is wrong. The fact that with an MSW you so cavalierly dismiss the government conclusion speaks to the fact that your real purpose is to market Carlbrook. When anybody tells me that the program saved their life that is a big red flag for me, because it is the program speaking for
them. I don't know you, and I don't know your family, but I am skeptical of your version of the events you have mentioned in the forum, particularly because you disparage the most objective research available. You have an MSW, or so you say. You have the ability to read the research and critique intelligently. [ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-13 10:04 ]
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This is a Carlbrook thread. Yes, they use a program based on workshops. As has been discussed, these are non-abusive and the kids value them highly.
Nobody ever gave the details of the workshops.
One, have you been in a student workshop?
Two, how can you speak for all kids?
Three, if you know that they aren't abusive, please give a "blow-by-blow" on the nature of the workshops (please refrain from saying things like "They're about friendship and relationships" - that will only show you don't know what goes on inside the workshops). Give a rundown on all of the details.
-How long are they?
-How many kids?
-What do they do?
-What "exercises" do they engage in?
-etc.
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On 2006-01-23 21:34:00, Carlbrook Graduate wrote:
"It's funny how most of the things being brought up in this forum are things I myself brought up while at Carlbrook... to parents who may send your children to these schools, I challenge you to take the time to do the research on the negative aspects of these programs. The workshops they use (another name for LGAT) have no long-term psychological benefit. In fact, many LGATs have induced psychotic breakdowns. They try to piss you off as much as possible, then make you break down and cry. They are a school. They make large sums of money. Do the math. There are over 100 kids at this school. Each student pays over 100,000 for a 16 month program. Many great regular boarding schools charge this much for about 4 years of school. The average staff member does not make a lot of money. When I was there, they crammed 5 people in a dorm room originally meant for 2 people, yet continued to state that they weren't about the money."
Not a rosy review from this graduate.
They try to piss you off as much as possible, then make you break down and cry.
Inducing psychic distress is abusive.
How do you explain this type of abuse?
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Using the therapeutic terms I've become so well endeared with, I now experience negative thinking and depression much more than I did before- to the point where I am thoroughly anti-social and confused about everything. The issues that were brought up in the Workshops (see LGA) constantly pervade my thoughts. I question myself much more so than I used to and all of my actions. I have become a much more indecisive personality and question my every motive, my every choice. Many people have said you are free to walk away at any time. This is true, but you are also forewarned and constantly threatened with wilderness and much more emotionally distressing programs. Many children are forced to take medication.
This graduate feels that Carlbrook was abusive and detrimental to his development.
Forced to take meds? How can a "school" force-medicate a child?
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The Rico Moreno letter presents an opposite opinion. That poster you just quoted didn't finish the program. He walked off. It doesn't work for everyone. It didn't work for him. It does work for many kids and is highly valued.
The workshops are done by peer group, so there are about 15 kids in each one. They last a day or two. The parents were put through a mini-version and it is quite powerful. They do focus on different aspects such as integrity, friendship, loyalty etc. They are designed to allow you to get at who you really are inside.
My kid hated most everything about Carlbook, but loved the workshops. Crying because you have discovered a truth about yourself or finally found the strength to be honest with someone else is not abusive. It is just a display of intense emotion. The workshops ARE intense. That is why they are so effective.
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"This graduate feels that Carlbrook was abusive and detrimental to his development."
That poster was NOT a graduate. He left the program and returned to worse drug use than before he entered (by his own report). Don't pick and choose information with a deliberate intent to mislead.
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On 2006-04-13 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The Rico Moreno letter presents an opposite opinion. That poster you just quoted didn't finish the program. He walked off. It doesn't work for everyone. It didn't work for him.
Straight out of a page of 'how to defend the indefensible". Just claim that it only works for a few "special" people, ya know...those that completely buy into the bullshit and would rather be caught dead than to dare speak of the atrocities commited in these "seminars".
It does work for many kids and is highly valued.
Can you please provide any proof that these "work"? We've provided evidence that it does damage. The only "proof" that we've seen you all provide is anecdotal. That's not proof.
The workshops are done by peer group, so there are about 15 kids in each one.
That's another red flad. Putting 'troubled kids' in a position of power over others is just asking for trouble.
They last a day or two. The parents were put through a mini-version and it is quite powerful.
No doubt they are. Incredibly powerful. Powerful enough to get people to change their entire belief system without a shred of proof that such changes will have any positive effect whatsoever. Pretty powerful stuff which is precisely why it's dangerous in the hands of untrained staff and 'troubled' kids.
They do focus on different aspects such as integrity, friendship, loyalty etc. They are designed to allow you to get at who you really are inside.
How exactly do they accomlish this?
Crying because you have discovered a truth about yourself or finally found the strength to be honest with someone else is not abusive. It is just a display of intense emotion. The workshops ARE intense. That is why they are so effective."
Again, no doubt they're effective but at what price?
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"The workshops are done by peer group, so there are about 15 kids in each one"
As usual, you misunderstood that. This is the number of kids in the peer group, give or take. There is a very competent adult leader- not a kid. There are some more senior program kids "supporting" the kids in the workshop, but no one has power over anyone else. This is another example of your misunderstanding of how the whole thing works.
Rico Moreno is a very successful young man- you are very quick to discredit what he has to say about Carlbrook. Why are you so threatened by a success story?
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On 2006-04-13 10:21:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
This is a Carlbrook thread. Yes, they use a program based on workshops. As has been discussed, these are non-abusive and the kids value them highly.
Nobody ever gave the details of the workshops.
One, have you been in a student workshop?
Two, how can you speak for all kids?
Three, if you know that they aren't abusive, please give a "blow-by-blow" on the nature of the workshops (please refrain from saying things like "They're about friendship and relationships" - that will only show you don't know what goes on inside the workshops). Give a rundown on all of the details.
-How long are they?
-How many kids?
-What do they do?
-What "exercises" do they engage in?
-etc.
"
You didn't answer these questions.
I'd like to know the exact specifics, please.
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On 2006-04-13 10:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
""The workshops are done by peer group, so there are about 15 kids in each one"
As usual, you misunderstood that. This is the number of kids in the peer group, give or take. There is a very competent adult leader- not a kid. There are some more senior program kids "supporting" the kids in the workshop, but no one has power over anyone else. This is another example of your misunderstanding of how the whole thing works.
I know exactly how this "whole thing" works. Those kids "supporting" in the workshops are expected to tow the program propoganda line. If not, they're punished in some form.
How competent are the adult leaders? YOu say they are but what qualifications do they have to facilitate this type of public disclosure, forced conformity etc?
Rico Moreno is a very successful young man- you are very quick to discredit what he has to say about Carlbrook. Why are you so threatened by a success story?"
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On 2006-04-13 10:54:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Three, if you know that they aren't abusive, please give a "blow-by-blow" on the nature of the workshops (please refrain from saying things like "They're about friendship and relationships" - that will only show you don't know what goes on inside the workshops). Give a rundown on all of the details.
-How long are they?
-How many kids?
-What do they do?
-What "exercises" do they engage in?
-etc.
"
Excellent questions but I won't hold my breath for them to be answered.
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Rico Moreno is a very successful young man- you are very quick to discredit what he has to say about Carlbrook. Why are you so threatened by a success story?
RED HERRING. You pitched out this canard to avoid answering these questions:
One, have you been in a student workshop?
Two, how can you speak for all kids?
Three, if you know that they aren't abusive, please give a "blow-by-blow" on the nature of the workshops (please refrain from saying things like "They're about friendship and relationships" - that will only show you don't know what goes on inside the workshops). Give a rundown on all of the details.
-How long are they?
-How many kids?
-What do they do?
-What "exercises" do they engage in?
-etc.
Please answer the questions fully so that we may understand your grasp of the workshops.
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I have not been through the Carlbrook workshops- and neither have you. If a graduate wants to debate this with you, I will leave it to them.
I don't have any issue with the workshops or how they are run. The kids- and I have spoken to MANY of them- think they are very valuable and enlightening.
We get that DJ thinks they are harmful and worthless. Since you don't know anymore about how they operate than I do, I guess the best judge is the kids who have been through them. We have one negative report. Many positives that I am aware of.
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Many positives that I am aware of.
Sorry, can't take your word for it.
This is just one more example of "I don't know what I'm talking about, but everything is great."
In reality, you have no clue what goes on in workshops...not a single clue. Your word is really worth nothing in this matter.
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Since you don't know anymore about how they operate than I do...
I'm actually very well versed in LGATS. They have been PROVEN harmful. It's not just my opinion, it's established fact.
Do some research FIRST, THEN post. It's not like there isn't forty years' wort of clinical evaluation of these seminars. There's plenty of evidence out there that shows harm - they've been referred to as "psychic murder" by experts in the field.
As far as evidence that they are helpful, there is only your ignorant "word" to take ("ignorant" BTW, before you get off topic with more DJ bashing, is not an insult, it refers to the fact that you know nothing of the subject matter - admittedly so).
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On 2006-04-13 11:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have not been through the Carlbrook workshops- and neither have you. If a graduate wants to debate this with you, I will leave it to them.
I don't have any issue with the workshops or how they are run. The kids- and I have spoken to MANY of them- think they are very valuable and enlightening.
We get that DJ thinks they are harmful and worthless. Since you don't know anymore about how they operate than I do, I guess the best judge is the kids who have been through them. We have one negative report. Many positives that I am aware of."
Hey, dont sweat it, its the mentality of the argument. You could have easily demanded to have them provide you with a list like:
? Which Universities/ colleges do you feel the counselors, advisors, Psychologists etc. should come from?
If a school has a campus but more than 50% of their students participated in on-line courses, would this disqualify the students from ever working for Carlbrook? How do you support your answer?
What degrees are acceptable? and why?
Which on-line courses are not acceptable ? and why?
Please explain and layout an acceptable course outline for each position?
Which courses should be avoided if they plan to work at a TBS?
Should a candidate also have a background in education? If,so which school? Can these schools also offer online course?
Please provide a list of all overseas schools which you feel to be unacceptable and why.
Thank you, I?ll be waiting for you response.?
This is how some derail the argument when they don?t know how to respond.
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Who, that's such bullshit. Anyone who comes on here insisting that the seminars 'work' and are 'beneficial' is going to be asked to back that up. Just like when we state that they're harmful and you guys ask us to back it up...difference being we do it with facts and clinical studies, you guys try to justify it with 'internal surveys' and anecdotes.
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Are kids threatened if they do not open up? Are these workshops based on Lifespring? Are kids deprived of sleep or food during these seminars? How many consecutive hours do these last? When are they allowed breaks? How are they different than WWASP seminars? Lots of kids speak highly of the WWASP seminars although they are highly clinically inappropiate. Just a version of brainwashing.[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-13 12:21 ]
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On 2006-04-13 12:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Who, that's such bullshit. Anyone who comes on here insisting that the seminars 'work' and are 'beneficial' is going to be asked to back that up. Just like when we state that they're harmful and you guys ask us to back it up...difference being we do it with facts and clinical studies, you guys try to justify it with 'internal surveys' and anecdotes."
or we can speak to our kids about whether or not it was abusive. We may get some detail or maybe not any and that may be our position, doesnt make it invalid.
I havent demanded clinical studies that state ASR or Carlbrook is harmful. If I had the discussion would be over because they dont exist. So the next best thing is to get feed back from those who attended or are affiliated. As parents we dont know every detail of every program, how much detail can you get from a kid who is attending the local high school about his or her day?
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On 2006-04-13 12:11:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 11:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have not been through the Carlbrook workshops- and neither have you. If a graduate wants to debate this with you, I will leave it to them.
I don't have any issue with the workshops or how they are run. The kids- and I have spoken to MANY of them- think they are very valuable and enlightening.
We get that DJ thinks they are harmful and worthless. Since you don't know anymore about how they operate than I do, I guess the best judge is the kids who have been through them. We have one negative report. Many positives that I am aware of."
Hey, dont sweat it, its the mentality of the argument. You could have easily demanded to have them provide you with a list like:
? Which Universities/ colleges do you feel the counselors, advisors, Psychologists etc. should come from?
If a school has a campus but more than 50% of their students participated in on-line courses, would this disqualify the students from ever working for Carlbrook? How do you support your answer?
What degrees are acceptable? and why?
Which on-line courses are not acceptable ? and why?
Please explain and layout an acceptable course outline for each position?
Which courses should be avoided if they plan to work at a TBS?
Should a candidate also have a background in education? If,so which school? Can these schools also offer online course?
Please provide a list of all overseas schools which you feel to be unacceptable and why.
Thank you, I?ll be waiting for you response.?
This is how some derail the argument when they don?t know how to respond.
"
Idiotic red herring.
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On 2006-04-13 12:29:00, TheWho wrote:
I havent demanded clinical studies that state ASR or Carlbrook is harmful. If I had the discussion would be over because they dont exist.
But there is strong clinical data that states that the seminars are harmful, very harmful. Carlbrook and ASR both utilize the LGAT type seminars, no?
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On 2006-04-13 07:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Help Deb.......sorry. ^^^^^^^^^"
Huh? Looks like things are going really well here, but happy to help if need be.
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On 2006-04-13 12:39:00, Deborah wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 07:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Help Deb.......sorry. ^^^^^^^^^"
Huh? Looks like things are going really well here, but happy to help if need be."
Sorry, thought I was in the HLA forum. And I just did it again right above you. Sorry folks, don't knwo wtf is wrong with me today. I PMed Ginger and asked her to fix it.
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"Are kids threatened if they do not open up? Are these workshops based on Lifespring? Are kids deprived of sleep or food during these seminars? How many consecutive hours do these last? When are they allowed breaks? How are they different than WWASP seminars? Lots of kids speak highly of the WWASP seminars although they are highly clinically inappropiate. Just a version of brainwashing"
The Carlbrook seminars are not anything like this. There is no threatening and they are not based on Lifespring. The kids eat and sleep and have breaks. They can open up- or not- as they choose. In fact, most of them learn to trust their peers and they DO open up, which is a huge step.
DJ-you are the one who is ignorant. And, yes, I will bash you whenever I please, since you delight in bashing anyone who dares to disagree with you. You have a very limited textbook understanding of SOME aspects of emotional growth programs- oh, plus your brief time at HLA. By the way, most parents who choose Carlbrook for their kids wouldn't even consider HLA. They aren't the same breed of animal. You have NO knowledge of how the Carlbrook program operates or how incredibly gifted the therapists and staff are. You have refused to listen to the fact that the founders of Carlbrook went to Cascade and started Carlbrook because they WANTED A DIFFERENT MODEL.
I can understand Little Lukie and Anonypis behaving the way they do, but you are a 40+ year old man who has the emotional IQ of a 12 year old. You use big words and vomit your anger and hate all over the parents and other program supporters on this board. When someone turns your tactics around on you, you piss and moan about it. I am sorry your entire self-esteem revolves around this forum, but you really are a joke.
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On 2006-04-13 12:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
The Carlbrook seminars are not anything like this. There is no threatening and they are not based on Lifespring. The kids eat and sleep and have breaks. They can open up- or not- as they choose. In fact, most of them learn to trust their peers and they DO open up, which is a huge step.
How do you come by this knowledge?
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On 2006-04-13 12:29:00, TheWho wrote:
I havent demanded clinical studies that state ASR or Carlbrook is harmful. If I had the discussion would be over because they dont exist.
But there is strong clinical data that states that the seminars are harmful, very harmful. Carlbrook and ASR both utilize the LGAT type seminars, no?
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On 2006-04-13 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 12:29:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 12:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
I havent demanded clinical studies that state ASR or Carlbrook is harmful. If I had the discussion would be over because they dont exist.
But there is strong clinical data that states that the seminars are harmful, very harmful. Carlbrook and ASR both utilize the LGAT type seminars, no?"
I think it is more like SGAT, very small groups which get together. Awareness training is utilized nation wide in many industries. Ford Motor company uses this with their sales force. LGAT is typically used to get a point or idea across in very little time (hours, a day) because it is not cost effective to have people sitting in training seminars for weeks at a time. I am sure if this is abused it could be harmful (like anything else), so yes it could be misused.
I am far from a defender of all programs, I have seen very bad results coming out of some of them. I am a strong believer that the results of a few schools dont refelct the reality of the entire industry. I spent a summer in Russia driving their "Prada" I think it is called and spent half the time on the side of the road, but I didnt take this as a reflection on the entire automotive industry around the world. Some dont do well, we need to focus on those areas.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-13 13:12 ]
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On 2006-04-13 12:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Are kids threatened if they do not open up? Are these workshops based on Lifespring? Are kids deprived of sleep or food during these seminars? How many consecutive hours do these last? When are they allowed breaks? How are they different than WWASP seminars? Lots of kids speak highly of the WWASP seminars although they are highly clinically inappropiate. Just a version of brainwashing"
The Carlbrook seminars are not anything like this. There is no threatening and they are not based on Lifespring. The kids eat and sleep and have breaks. They can open up- or not- as they choose. In fact, most of them learn to trust their peers and they DO open up, which is a huge step.
DJ-you are the one who is ignorant. And, yes, I will bash you whenever I please, since you delight in bashing anyone who dares to disagree with you. You have a very limited textbook understanding of SOME aspects of emotional growth programs- oh, plus your brief time at HLA. By the way, most parents who choose Carlbrook for their kids wouldn't even consider HLA. They aren't the same breed of animal. You have NO knowledge of how the Carlbrook program operates or how incredibly gifted the therapists and staff are. You have refused to listen to the fact that the founders of Carlbrook went to Cascade and started Carlbrook because they WANTED A DIFFERENT MODEL.
I can understand Little Lukie and Anonypis behaving the way they do, but you are a 40+ year old man who has the emotional IQ of a 12 year old. You use big words and vomit your anger and hate all over the parents and other program supporters on this board. When someone turns your tactics around on you, you piss and moan about it. I am sorry your entire self-esteem revolves around this forum, but you really are a joke."
Wow. This shows a lot about you.
Someone with no education, no experience and a complete fasilure as a parent shouldn't be lecturing.
You've already admitted that you KNOW NOTHING about the workshops (never saw one, can't describe one, don't even know the basics), nothing about LGA and nothing about programs in general. I was a practicing clinician for ten years. You are not my intellectual peer - not by a long shot, so don't inflate your worth.
You may fancy yourself special, but you're a cookie-cutter version of the other ignorant dogmatists that post here, nothing more, nothing less. No facts, no evidence, just "because I said so." Sorry, but only other ignoramuses will buy that line.
For years people just like you were saying the same things about HLA - "It's the best," "They wanted to start something better," "They're qualified," etc. Well, all of that is demonstrably false. It takes time for the facts to come out. Rest be assured that they will. We'll see who's right then. You'll be eating crow, just like the nice folks at HLA.
You know absolutely nothing about me, not even my age, but yet you project like you know something. You don't. Save your breath.
I noticed once again though, that as soon as you are forced to admit your ignorance you spew venom. And you talk to my esteem?
Get a grip. Argue your point and let the facts talk because your opinion is worth exactly zero.
You're a "different breed"? Yes, an arrogant, ignorant blue-blooded snob. I agree completely.
Have a great day!
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On 2006-04-13 12:54:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
Wow. This shows a lot about you.
Someone with no education, no experience and a complete fasilure as a parent shouldn't be lecturing.
You've already admitted that you KNOW NOTHING about the workshops (never saw one, can't describe one, don't even know the basics), nothing about LGA and nothing about programs in general. I was a practicing clinician for ten years. You are not my intellectual peer - not by a long shot, so don't inflate your worth.
You may fancy yourself special, but you're a cookie-cutter version of the other ignorant dogmatists that post here, nothing more, nothing less. No facts, no evidence, just "because I said so." Sorry, but only other ignoramuses will buy that line.
For years people just like you were saying the same things about HLA - "It's the best," "They wanted to start something better," "They're qualified," etc. Well, all of that is demonstrably false. It takes time for the facts to come out. Rest be assured that they will. We'll see who's right then. You'll be eating crow, just like the nice folks at HLA.
You know absolutely nothing about me, not even my age, but yet you project like you know something. You don't. Save your breath.
I noticed once again though, that as soon as you are forced to admit your ignorance you spew venom. And you talk to my esteem?
Get a grip. Argue your point and let the facts talk because your opinion is worth exactly zero.
You're a "different breed"? Yes, an arrogant, ignorant blue-blooded snob. I agree completely.
Have a great day!
"
:nworthy:
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You can give it out but you sure can't take it, can you DJ?
I am SO above you in intellect that it is laughable. I believe you have shared repeatedly about your wonderful expertise in the mental health area.
The one fear ANY parent has is that there kid might wind up with a "mental health professional" like YOU.
YOU are the one who doesn't address the facts. Facts such as the excellent credentials of the Carlbrook senior staff and their goal-which has been accomplished- of starting a school based on a different model. It doesn't really matter what I know or do not know about the Carlbrook workshops or all the other crap you want to claim they are- YOU have not attended one, know nothing about the model for the workshops and are just blowing it out your ass, as usual.
Now take your toys and go back to the HLA thread so you can pat yourself on the head for supposedly being SO right about its demise. Oh, WAIT- it's STILL out there!
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On 2006-04-13 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
YOU are the one who doesn't address the facts. Facts such as the excellent credentials of the Carlbrook senior staff and their goal-which has been accomplished- of starting a school based on a different model.
What different model would that be?
It doesn't really matter what I know or do not know about the Carlbrook workshops or all the other crap you want to claim they are- YOU have not attended one, know nothing about the model for the workshops and are just blowing it out your ass, as usual.
We keep hearing you guys stating that they're not harmful in any way, that they're different. How? You won't answer questions like that.
Now take your toys and go back to the HLA thread so you can pat yourself on the head for supposedly being SO right about its demise. Oh, WAIT- it's STILL out there!"
Yes and may very well continue to be. Most of the programs that have been shut down hobbled along for quite a while after they were taken to task. There's a shitload of gullible, naive parents out there, but eventually they closed. It just takes a little time but you can't deny that they're in a bit of a free-fall at the moment. Staff is scattering like a bunch of cockroaches on the kitchen floor when you flick the light on. Damage control is in full swing.
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On 2006-04-13 12:32:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 12:11:00, TheWho wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 11:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have not been through the Carlbrook workshops- and neither have you. If a graduate wants to debate this with you, I will leave it to them.
I don't have any issue with the workshops or how they are run. The kids- and I have spoken to MANY of them- think they are very valuable and enlightening.
We get that DJ thinks they are harmful and worthless. Since you don't know anymore about how they operate than I do, I guess the best judge is the kids who have been through them. We have one negative report. Many positives that I am aware of."
Hey, dont sweat it, its the mentality of the argument. You could have easily demanded to have them provide you with a list like:
? Which Universities/ colleges do you feel the counselors, advisors, Psychologists etc. should come from?
If a school has a campus but more than 50% of their students participated in on-line courses, would this disqualify the students from ever working for Carlbrook? How do you support your answer?
What degrees are acceptable? and why?
Which on-line courses are not acceptable ? and why?
Please explain and layout an acceptable course outline for each position?
Which courses should be avoided if they plan to work at a TBS?
Should a candidate also have a background in education? If,so which school? Can these schools also offer online course?
Please provide a list of all overseas schools which you feel to be unacceptable and why.
Thank you, I?ll be waiting for you response.?
This is how some derail the argument when they don?t know how to respond.
"
Idiotic red herring.
"
Thank you, exactly my point. See what it looks like from the other side?
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On 2006-04-13 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You can give it out but you sure can't take it, can you DJ?
I am SO above you in intellect that it is laughable. I believe you have shared repeatedly about your wonderful expertise in the mental health area.
The one fear ANY parent has is that there kid might wind up with a "mental health professional" like YOU.
YOU are the one who doesn't address the facts. Facts such as the excellent credentials of the Carlbrook senior staff and their goal-which has been accomplished- of starting a school based on a different model. It doesn't really matter what I know or do not know about the Carlbrook workshops or all the other crap you want to claim they are- YOU have not attended one, know nothing about the model for the workshops and are just blowing it out your ass, as usual.
Now take your toys and go back to the HLA thread so you can pat yourself on the head for supposedly being SO right about its demise. Oh, WAIT- it's STILL out there!"
Your responses are completely laughable. The idea that you are intellectually superior to a houseplant is laughable. The idea that abusers from shut-down programs are starting something "new" is laughable. You, lady, are a laughing stock.
Even idiot-boy (Who) has to come on this thread to follow DJ around. Who are you people kidding? All you do is follow DJ around and bash him. He has full control over both of your lives because you are both so pathetically weak.
How does it feel to be completely and utterly controlled? Probably the same way it feels to look in the mirror and realize you've accomplished nothing in your life but screwing up your kids so bad that they can't function in society.
You are both weak-minded failures and the proof is in the pudding. You needed a program to do the job that you completely failed at performing.
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On 2006-04-13 14:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You can give it out but you sure can't take it, can you DJ?
I am SO above you in intellect that it is laughable. I believe you have shared repeatedly about your wonderful expertise in the mental health area.
The one fear ANY parent has is that there kid might wind up with a "mental health professional" like YOU.
YOU are the one who doesn't address the facts. Facts such as the excellent credentials of the Carlbrook senior staff and their goal-which has been accomplished- of starting a school based on a different model. It doesn't really matter what I know or do not know about the Carlbrook workshops or all the other crap you want to claim they are- YOU have not attended one, know nothing about the model for the workshops and are just blowing it out your ass, as usual.
Now take your toys and go back to the HLA thread so you can pat yourself on the head for supposedly being SO right about its demise. Oh, WAIT- it's STILL out there!"
Your responses are completely laughable. The idea that you are intellectually superior to a houseplant is laughable. The idea that abusers from shut-down programs are starting something "new" is laughable. You, lady, are a laughing stock.
Even idiot-boy (Who) has to come on this thread to follow DJ around. Who are you people kidding? All you do is follow DJ around and bash him. He has full control over both of your lives because you are both so pathetically weak.
How does it feel to be completely and utterly controlled? Probably the same way it feels to look in the mirror and realize you've accomplished nothing in your life but screwing up your kids so bad that they can't function in society.
You are both weak-minded failures and the proof is in the pudding. You needed a program to do the job that you completely failed at performing.
"
Okay, DJ, you can log back in now.
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DJ, You tried the same thing over on the ASR thread and it didnt work.
We understand, you took a beating today. Just learn to be nice to people, listen and converse like an adult.
When you feel a little better log back in and play nice.
[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-04-13 15:11 ]
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On 2006-04-13 13:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-13 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
YOU are the one who doesn't address the facts. Facts such as the excellent credentials of the Carlbrook senior staff and their goal-which has been accomplished- of starting a school based on a different model.
What different model would that be?
It doesn't really matter what I know or do not know about the Carlbrook workshops or all the other crap you want to claim they are- YOU have not attended one, know nothing about the model for the workshops and are just blowing it out your ass, as usual.
We keep hearing you guys stating that they're not harmful in any way, that they're different. How? You won't answer questions like that.
Now take your toys and go back to the HLA thread so you can pat yourself on the head for supposedly being SO right about its demise. Oh, WAIT- it's STILL out there!"
Yes and may very well continue to be. Most of the programs that have been shut down hobbled along for quite a while after they were taken to task. There's a shitload of gullible, naive parents out there, but eventually they closed. It just takes a little time but you can't deny that they're in a bit of a free-fall at the moment. Staff is scattering like a bunch of cockroaches on the kitchen floor when you flick the light on. Damage control is in full swing."
CAn anyone answer these?
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Another red flag.......a HUGE scarlett, crimson, blood red, screaming flag.
?Google search on Carlbrook and Len Buccellato. (http://http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWI,RNWI:2004-51,RNWI:en&q=Carlbrook+School+Len+Buccellato)
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"Another red flag.......a HUGE scarlett, crimson, blood red, screaming flag.
?Google search on Carlbrook and Len Buccellato."
Did you even READ what you Googled? Len B has absolutely nothing to do with Carlbrook. The two words appeared on the same page on Woodbury's site. Are you an idiot?
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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Bucci on the board of either NATSAP or some other organization that makes these places appear legit?
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Or he started it? Not sure, that's why I'm asking.
Did he have anything to do with how Carlbrook set up it's "emotional growth" seminars or programs or whatever the fuck they're called now?
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Len B has no connection to Carlbrook and never did. The school was started by Grant Price and the Merritt brothers. Tim Brace signed on at the beginning. The schools are not very similar at all.
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#49405 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4886&forum=9&start=20#49405)
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On 2006-04-13 15:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Len B has no connection to Carlbrook and never did. The school was started by Grant Price and the Merritt brothers. Tim Brace signed on at the beginning. The schools are not very similar at all."
I've read the Carlbrook page and read the HLA page. Not much difference I can see.
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On 2006-04-13 15:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
Did you even READ what you Googled? Len B has absolutely nothing to do with Carlbrook. The two words appeared on the same page on Woodbury's site. Are you an idiot?"
You're right. I glanced at the page and thought it was the one I was looking for. I was wrong. This is what I was looking for
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#49405 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4886&forum=9&start=20#49405)
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I don't remember too much about the Carlbrook workshops... something about a bear trap and a pinata, and then it all goes blank.
And for those who watched south park last night, all of my postings are now being written by manatees with idea balls.
_________________
"Truth may be stranger than fiction... but it is never as strange as lies."
-John Hodgman
[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-04-13 16:28 ]
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Old info.
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On 2006-04-13 20:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Old info."
It may be, but it's still relevant. Spin off after spin off. Set up with the same basics (especially the damn seminars), some of the same staff as other abusive facilities.
So many programs open up under the guise of being the 'kinder, gentler' program. When you start with the basics of changing someone's behavior or ideology against their will, it's dangerous.
Virtually the same package with a slightly different wrapper.
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THe fact that SOME of the staff came from programs with methods which you might not approve has no bearing on Carlbrook. If the founders of the school and the senior staff set up a different model, these people are very capable of buying in and changing the way they operate. Once again, you are so stuck in the past that you don't understand that things are not static. People learn- programs change- not every school that opens is just another one of the old ones. So what if someone worked at Hidden Lake? Perhaps they strongly disagreed with the methods there and wanted to be part of something different. There are only a certain number of high quality, dedicated emotional health professionals in this industry, and Carlbrook has attracted the best of them (except for Glenn Bender).
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On 2006-04-14 05:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
If the founders of the school and the senior staff set up a different model, these people are very capable of buying in and changing the way they operate.
What model would that be?
Once again, you are so stuck in the past that you don't understand that things are not static. People learn- programs change- not every school that opens is just another one of the old ones. So what if someone worked at Hidden Lake? Perhaps they strongly disagreed with the methods there and wanted to be part of something different. There are only a certain number of high quality, dedicated emotional health professionals in this industry, and Carlbrook has attracted the best of them (except for Glenn Bender)."
The basic premise and methodology of behavior modification is what scares me. There may or may not be outright physical abuse, I have no clue. I haven't heard of any so right now I'm inclined to believe there is not. That does not mean that no damage is done. Mucking around inside someone's psyche has inherent dangers. Carlbrook may well be kinder and gentler, I don't know. What I do know is that these seminars (they've been called a variety of things throughout the various programs but these really are basically the same) are very often more damaging than actual physical abuse.
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Mucking around inside someone's psyche has inherent dangers. Carlbrook may well be kinder and gentler, I don't know. What I do know is that these seminars (they've been called a variety of things throughout the various programs but these really are basically the same) are very often more damaging than actual physical abuse.
This is true. I've seen the damage caused by this type of unfettered "regression therapy" marathon sessions. It is especially damaging to the developing mind.
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I like Glenn Bender. He was my favorite person at Carlbrook.
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Until you have a REAL understanding of the Carlbrook workshops, why don't you stop opining? You don't KNOW how they are conducted. You are basing your opinion on textbook information about a type of regression technique and you have no idea if this is how the Carlbrook workshops operate. And, no, there doesn't appear to be anyone willing to enlighten you. .
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On 2006-04-14 06:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Until you have a REAL understanding of the Carlbrook workshops, why don't you stop opining? You don't KNOW how they are conducted. You are basing your opinion on textbook information about a type of regression technique and you have no idea if this is how the Carlbrook workshops operate. And, no, there doesn't appear to be anyone willing to enlighten you. ."
We keep asking and the only answer I've ever seen is that they are, in fact, based on LGATs. That's the info I'm going on. If they're not done that way then by all means, correct me. But please give me info, don't just scream that I'm wrong. I may well be but you're not providing any additional info to say anything otherwise.
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On 2006-04-14 06:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I like Glenn Bender. He was my favorite person at Carlbrook."
I have been reading the feedback from all the posters about the pro's and con's of Carlbrook.
The foundation every program is built on, is the credibility of the owners and employees of the program, regardless of the type of program.
The first person on the list of key people for Carlbrook is Dr. Glenn Bender. He states on his resume he has 25 years experience as an educator and employee of a number of programs and schools.
Dr. Bender seems to have forgotten his place of employment just before Carlbrook. From 1999 until he started at Carlbrook, Dr. Bender was the Director of Admissions and Marketing at Alldredge Academy in Davis,West Virginia. In Feb 2001 a child died at Alldredge Academy. One year later, Alldredge Academy pleaded guilty to "Child neglect resulting in death".
Dr Bender was the primary recruiter of that childs family. He assured the family that Alldredge Academy was a safe and appropriate placement for a child with depression yet when the child died as a result of depression, Dr. Bender seemed to disappear.
I can understand why Dr. Bender would not want to list an employer with a criminal conviction on his resume, considering he was a major player in the crime.
In every field, weather it is academics or business, falsifying a resume is a serious breach of ethics usually resulting in dismissal. Did the other principals of Carlbrook not know or not care? In either event this creates a credibility issue and calls into question the honesty of the entire program.
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We keep asking and the only answer I've ever seen is that they are, in fact, based on LGATs.
They are.
They're the same "seminars," "workshops," "marathons," and "propheets" that the founders ran at previous abusive and shut-down institutions like CEDU and Alldredge Academy.
The only things that have changed are the program names and the prices. It's still the same people doing the same stuff to kids.
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They are not the same workshops. The founders, Grant Price and the Merritts, did not run workshops at other abusive places, as you allege.
You have no idea what the workshops involve. You are speculating based on the fact that you are convinced that Carlbrook is an abusive program.
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On 2006-04-14 08:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"They are not the same workshops. The founders, Grant Price and the Merritts, did not run workshops at other abusive places, as you allege.
You have no idea what the workshops involve. You are speculating based on the fact that you are convinced that Carlbrook is an abusive program.
"
I said that I wasn't sure if Carlbrook was abusive or not. I have a major problem with anyone that uses these types of 'seminars' in any way shape or form because I am all too familiar with them.
I'll ask AGAIN....what's the difference between the LGATs that they're based on and what Carlbrook is doing now?
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You have no idea what the workshops involve.
Please state clearly what they are. I would hope that you know exactly what your kid went through, so please just tell everyone and get on with it.
Give us the step by step script of the seminars.
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I do not have a script of the seminars. I did not need to know the exact content. I know they were not emotionally abusive. I know the kids slept and ate. I know everyone came out of them- and I mean EVERYONE- with a sense of accomplishment and renewal. I know that kids who resisted everything about Carlbrook loved the workshops. No, they were not brainwashed. I know that the foundation of the school was based on building self-esteem and finding the good in each kid.
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On 2006-04-14 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I do not have a script of the seminars. I did not need to know the exact content. I know they were not emotionally abusive. I know the kids slept and ate. I know everyone came out of them- and I mean EVERYONE- with a sense of accomplishment and renewal. I know that kids who resisted everything about Carlbrook loved the workshops. No, they were not brainwashed. I know that the foundation of the school was based on building self-esteem and finding the good in each kid. "
So, in other words you really no virtually nothing about it or them and that's A-OK with you because you have faith.
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On 2006-04-14 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I do not have a script of the seminars. I did not need to know the exact content.
Why not? For something to produce the profound changes that you've stated must be pretty powerful. I sure would want to know how they would accomplish whta you say they do.
I know they were not emotionally abusive.
How? How do you know that if you have no clue as to how[/b] they work?
I know everyone came out of them- and I mean EVERYONE- with a sense of accomplishment and renewal. I know that kids who resisted everything about Carlbrook loved the workshops. No, they were not brainwashed.
You don't know that and very often you can't see the lasting damage until years after. Sometimes it takes that long for the BM to wear off.
I know that the foundation of the school was based on building self-esteem and finding the good in each kid. "
Again, how do you know this if you no virtually nothing about how[/b] it works?
No one is saying that behavior modification doesn't work. It's most effective. What's important here is how it works. I hope you see that before it's too late.
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Nope- mistating me again. I attended a mini-version of the seminar (as a parent). I have heard about the seminars from probably 20 Carlbrook kids- NO negative reports other than the one referenced on this forum a few pages ago by the boy who walked out of the program. I checked with many parents, interviewed the senior staff of the school and got to know some of the senior therapists very well. I am in touch with some of the therapists who have left the school- NO reports of abuse or anything but total support of the workshops.
I think this is a little more than faith, wouldn't you say?
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On 2006-04-14 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nope- mistating me again. I attended a mini-version of the seminar (as a parent). I have heard about the seminars from probably 20 Carlbrook kids- NO negative reports other than the one referenced on this forum a few pages ago by the boy who walked out of the program. I checked with many parents, interviewed the senior staff of the school and got to know some of the senior therapists very well. I am in touch with some of the therapists who have left the school- NO reports of abuse or anything but total support of the workshops.
I think this is a little more than faith, wouldn't you say?"
No, I wouldn't. I guess it depends on what your definition of abuse is. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone in their right mind would subject anyone to that kind of crap let alone a vulnerable, impressionable, possibly troubled teenager. Talk about a recipe for disaster!!! Especially if you have no fucking CLUE as to HOW it accomplishes what you say it does.
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Are group confessions used? Are said confessions rewarded with 'love bombing'? Is non-comformity OK?
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Have you ever bothered to look at the history of LGATs? If you have and you still see no problems then I guess the discussion is moot, you'll never see what we, as survivors of these places do because you don't want to. It's easier for you to stay in your safe little insular world and pretend that the ends justify the means.
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"Are group confessions used? Are said confessions rewarded with 'love bombing'? Is non-comformity OK?"
Non-conformity is definitely OK. There are no group confessions or love bombing.
Is it possible these Workshops are quite different from the LGAT seminars? Imagine that!
First of all, keep in mind that these vulnerable, troubled teenagers NEED their behavior modified. If Carlbrook has figured out a way to aid them in examining themselves and their behavior in a non-abusive manner, good for them!
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"you'll never see what we, as survivors of these places do because you don't want to"
You did not attend Carlbrook. You can not lump Carlbrook in with someplace you attended in the 80s and can't get past. When we start hearing from Carlbrook kids who believe these seminars were abusive and that they were brain-washed, then I will start to pay attention.
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I checked with many parents, interviewed the senior staff of the school and got to know some of the senior therapists very well. I am in touch with some of the therapists who have left the school...
"The lady doth protest too much..."
This is a short-stroke job if I ever saw one.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You are so full of balogna.
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Non-conformity is definitely OK.
Big, FAT lie right here. This is ridiculous.
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On 2006-04-14 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
Non-conformity is definitely OK. There are no group confessions or love bombing.
How do you know? You've said that you don't really need to know what goes on in there, so how do you know?
Is it possible these Workshops are quite different from the LGAT seminars?
Possible, but highly unlikely.
First of all, keep in mind that these vulnerable, troubled teenagers NEED their behavior modified.
The only way to 'modify someone's behavior' against their will is to break it first. Bad, very bad.
If Carlbrook has figured out a way to aid them in examining themselves and their behavior in a non-abusive manner, good for them!"
You keep saying that but you provide NOTHING in the way of evidence that it doesn't follow the LGATs. Those are most definitely abusive.
Again.........how are the seminars different from LGATs.
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On 2006-04-14 05:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
If the founders of the school and the senior staff set up a different model, these people are very capable of buying in and changing the way they operate.
What model would that be?
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What happened to the other thousand posts in this thread? Where did it all go?
:???: :???: :???:
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If it is SGAT that is being done ,it is an effective means to enhance selling ability. It is especially good when the product your selling is shitty.
Cars and ligtbulbs are not distressed adolecscents. The proccess of therapy is considerably more complex. And incarcerated adolescents are among the toughest populations. You have individuals who are misdiagnosed and are mentally ill, individuals who are developing symtomology, sociopaths, and emotionally fragile kids. And then there are vendettas, scapegoats, premeditated pile ons.etc. A therapist who isn't careful can find two residents in a physical confrontation. Even good sound therapuetic technique need to be put into the context that you are dealing with an indivdual. So the
therapist has to be extremely alert and sensitive to the possible harm that the group proccess can entail. It is not a one size fits all.
I don't know what they do at Carlbrook. Apparantly nobody knows, or they are afraid to disclose it. I hope it is not regression therapy because that is extremely dangerous in this population. Idividuals exposeded to this can disasociate, or recover false memories, which disable ego funtioning. This retards their ability to discover who they are which is one of the primary task of adolesence.
"We have argued that while many participants experienced a sense of enhanced well-being as a consequence of the training, these experiences were essentially patholigical. First, ego funtions were systematically undermined and regression was promoted by environmental structuring, infantalizing of the participants and repeated emphasis on submission and surrender Second the ideation or interpretive framework provided in the training was also based upon regressive modes of reasoning-the use of all or nothing categories, absolutist logic and magical thinking, all of which are consistant with the egocentric thinking of you children. Third, the content of the training stimulated early narcissistic conflicts and defenses, which accounts for the elation and sense of heightened well-being achieved by the many participants. The devaluation of objective contraints upon a person's action promoted grandiose fantasies of unlimited power. A collary to this devaluation of the external world wits that interactions with others lacked substance. People appear to be interchangeable so that ephemeral, indiscriminate emotional contacts, were experienced as profound and meaningful. " This was written in Psychiatry "Pathology as Personal Growth."
I don't know what Carlbrooks workshops are like but I am skeptical of the great emotional catharthis these kids are
are feeling, and the potential discord when their world views collides with their home environment.
Regression therapy, rebirthing, and emotional cathartic therapy has no empirical validation and
no acceptance with the mainstream mental health establishment. Could that be a reason why those workshops, practices, excercises and procedures have no disclosure? Please Carlbrook make a contribution to all of us so we may understand just how you make people better.
[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-14 12:30 ][ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-04-14 12:34 ]
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On 2006-04-14 12:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What happened to the other thousand posts in this thread? Where did it all go?
:???: :???: :???: "
Its all here, just more posts per page now.
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I do not have a script of the seminars. I did not need to know the exact content.
then
I know they were not emotionally abusive. I know the kids slept and ate. I know everyone came out of them- and I mean EVERYONE- with a sense of accomplishment and renewal.
"I don't know the bad stuff, but I can guess about the good stuff."
You don't know anything about it. And you keep going on about "20 Carlbrook students." You know 20 of them because you're an Ed Con sending kids there for profit. We saw you working the WWASPS threads too saying exactly the same thing about them.
You are a disgusting human being.
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I know they were not emotionally abusive. I know the kids slept and ate. I know everyone came out of them- and I mean EVERYONE- with a sense of accomplishment and renewal.
100% success rate, huh? Right. :roll:
Some people will say anything to turn a profit.
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I am not an EdCon. I did speak to a lot of Carlbrook kids over the last few years. I never claimed 100% success rate. I said that at the conclusion of the seminars, the kids had positive feelings about themselves and had gained insight. Of course post-Carlbrook there is nowhere near 100% success rate. I know nothing about WWASP.
My information about the seminars comes from the kids who have attended them. I know the positives because that is the ONLY thing anyone (again, with the exception of Ben on this thread who walked off of the campus and returned to hard drug use) has ever said.
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By the way, an Educational Consultant can not "send" kids to Carlbrook. They turn away many kids. THere is a long assessment before admission. There is no profit to an EC for recommending Carlbrook.
Good try and good demonstration of your ignorance.
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I don't think Karen is an edcon, just a psycho.
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I did speak to a lot of Carlbrook kids over the last few years.
How many?
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I know nothing about WWASP.
Then why are posting in the WWASPS thread about their seminars? And that you have personal experience with WWASPS.
:???: :???:
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There is no profit to an EC for recommending Carlbrook.
With this statement and two slices of bread you can make a bologna sandwich.
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Good Ed. Consultants charge about $3000 for placement paid for by the parents. They get paid more than enough by the parents not to look for referral fees. The good consultants don't send kids to schools that give them kickbacks. Our ed consultant only referred us to Carlbrook, Oakley, and ASR. These schools do not pay a referral fee. That is fact.
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Facts don't matter on this forum. All that matters is the spin the Anti-All-Programs folks put on things. They have decided that Carlbrook gives kick-backs. Despite the fact that this is totally false, you will never sell this point. It doesn't jive with their "Bad Program" spiel.
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I am always surprised at how many people are making money off troubled teens. Corrupt bunch of sonsabitches if I've seen one.
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You paid three thousand dollars to someone to tell you where to send your kid?
How the hell did someone as stupid as you get that much money?
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On 2006-04-16 08:48:00, Paul Smith wrote:
"You paid three thousand dollars to someone to tell you where to send your kid?
How the hell did someone as stupid as you get that much money?
"
Ive wondered that for years man... :rofl:
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Our ed consultant only referred us to Carlbrook, Oakley, and ASR. These schools do not pay a referral fee.
Big fat lie here again.
The flow of the kickback is redirected, but it exists nonetheless.
The Ed Con get s the $3000.00 from the parent who egaged their services and the parent that referred the "new parent" to the Ed Con gets the kickback from Carlbrook in the form of a "tuition rebate."
This doesn't take into account the gifting that occurs between Carlbrook and the Ed cons, who receive extensive "gifts" from Carlbrook, ostensibly without direct solicitation of referrals, but we all know how that goes. It's the same quid pro quo without overtness.
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On 2006-04-16 08:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Our ed consultant only referred us to Carlbrook, Oakley, and ASR. These schools do not pay a referral fee.
Big fat lie here again.
The flow of the kickback is redirected, but it exists nonetheless.
The Ed Con get s the $3000.00 from the parent who egaged their services and the parent that referred the "new parent" to the Ed Con gets the kickback from Carlbrook in the form of a "tuition rebate."
This doesn't take into account the gifting that occurs between Carlbrook and the Ed cons, who receive extensive "gifts" from Carlbrook, ostensibly without direct solicitation of referrals, but we all know how that goes. It's the same quid pro quo without overtness.
"
None of this is true. NO referring parent gets any tuition reduction from Carlbrook. Carlbrook has a waiting list and does not need to drum up business. The above is a complete lie.
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On 2006-04-16 08:48:00, Paul Smith wrote:
"You paid three thousand dollars to someone to tell you where to send your kid?
How the hell did someone as stupid as you get that much money?
"
:nworthy:
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I guess you aren't aware of the many functions a GOOD EC serves. They work with the wilderness therapists to figure out the correct next placement, they can help the kid get into a normal private school that would not be inclined to take the kid, they can arrange for appropriate testing etc.
It's really too bad that you guys cost yourself even a shred of credibility by your complete ignorance and immaturity.
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wilderness therapists
That's a great oxymoron, I'll have to use it sometime. We used to refer to these people as camp counselors when I was young.
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On 2006-04-16 09:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I guess you aren't aware of the many functions a GOOD EC serves. They work with the wilderness therapists to figure out the correct next placement, they can help the kid get into a normal private school that would not be inclined to take the kid, they can arrange for appropriate testing etc.
It's really too bad that you guys cost yourself even a shred of credibility by your complete ignorance and immaturity."
Karen, we know you love the EC's. I bet you used them multiple times with the multpile placements with your children. Son, daughter, how many times did you pay one of these people? :lol: :lol: :lol: A fool and their money seem easily parted in this industry.
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Karen, after spending so much on EC's, why don't you have a family to celebrate Easter with? Any friends? :lol: :lol:
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I didn't pay an EC. Sorry.
Karen
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Stop pretending to be me.
KarenInDallas
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On 2006-04-16 10:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I didn't pay an EC. Sorry.
Karen"
Yes you did.
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No, I did not pay an EC. I SPOKE to a local EC, but I did not pay a fee to one for program advice.
And this is so important to you WHY?
Karen
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On 2006-04-16 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No, I did not pay an EC. I SPOKE to a local EC, but I did not pay a fee to one for program advice.
And this is so important to you WHY?
Karen"
Why are you lying?
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Well, my son was a Wild Child when he was 16, and he eliminated some choices for himself. His academics and athletics remained strong. Our Educational Consultant recommended a few schools which would be right for our son entering as a junior. We wanted a smaller community (the school has 425 students in 9-12) and the running coach/program needed to be strong. There are SO many good schools way beyond the well-known top 10. I could not believe it once I started to do the research. At many of them there are only a few openings for juniors. We applied to Western Reserve in the Cleveland area, Williston-Northampton, Colorado Rocky Mountain School and Northfield-Mt. Hermann (the latter was not highly regarded by our educational consultant). Blair was our first choice. When we visited we loved everything about it. Our son adjusts easily and would have done well at any of the schools. He knows and we know that he is at the best place for HIM. It isn't the path I had envisioned when he was small, but things change. Karen
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That post was not by me. It was the contents of a private message. I did speak with an EdCon, but did not pay for the advice on boarding schools.
Karen
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On 2006-04-16 13:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That post was not by me. It was the contents of a private message. I did speak with an EdCon, but did not pay for the advice on boarding schools.
Karen"
Who did then? He had to have gotten paid for services somehow.
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On 2006-04-16 13:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That post was not by me. It was the contents of a private message. I did speak with an EdCon, but did not pay for the advice on boarding schools.
Karen"
(http://http://members.fortunecity.com/colorbook/colouring2/pin3.gif)
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The EdCon never charged me for the meeting we had. I'm sure if I had needed additional help, I would have gotten a bill, but I didn't.
Karen
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Just so everyone knows- the person posting as KareninDallas posed as someone else on another forum and asked me about boarding schools.
I am not surprised at the deceit and nastiness in violating what I shared confidentially, but I wanted to make it clear that this was private information that I shared by private message on another forum. I believe it was a forum not at all related to emotional growth programs.
I hope you are proud of yourself. It is just further proof of the level to which you are willing to stoop.
Karen
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On 2006-04-16 13:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Just so everyone knows- the person posting as KareninDallas posed as someone else on another forum and asked me about boarding schools.
I am not surprised at the deceit and nastiness in violating what I shared confidentially, but I wanted to make it clear that this was private information that I shared by private message on another forum. I believe it was a forum not at all related to emotional growth programs.
I hope you are proud of yourself. It is just further proof of the level to which you are willing to stoop.
Karen"
Yeah, well sometimes ya gotta go undercover to expose the lies. Y'all don't tell 'em out in the open and deny it to the end when caught so occasionally proof is required.
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I hope you are proud of yourself.
::nod::
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I am not surprised at the deceit and nastiness in violating what I shared confidentially, but I wanted to make it clear that this was private information that I shared by private message on another forum.
Nope you posted this for everyone to see. Nice try though, Karen. When will you learn to stop lying?
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On 2006-04-16 13:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not surprised at the deceit and nastiness in violating what I shared confidentially, but I wanted to make it clear that this was private information that I shared by private message on another forum.
Nope you posted this for everyone to see. Nice try though, Karen. When will you learn to stop lying?"
Did she? Where? I don't doubt it, just curious as to where.
Also, is this Karen a/k/a Buzzkill or am I confused?
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Google "KarenInDallas"
Click the fifth link down
click on the username "karenindallas"
click on "find more posts by karenindallas"
have fun!
this is karenInDallas, a different karen than buzzkill.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 2&forum=37 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37)
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However, both the boarding school (Interlochen) which my daughter attended for two years and my son's school are filled with courteous kids who appreciate what they are being given. I have attended athletic events and other school functions this past semester whenever possible (we are in Texas, son is on east coast) and the kids we have met are wonderful. It is certainly the right thing for us!
How touching, Karen. You are a true program parent.
And boy, you know everything about everything. You sure give a lot of advice.
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I have never regretted sending my kids to boarding school. My daughter went as a junior so that she could have specialized training in music. She needed to be with "like-minded peers", as we say on this board. I missed her, but it was the right thing for her. I was able to nurture her from afar and by the time she was 16 there wasn't a lot of day to day nurturing going on in our home anyway!
Our public school system is awful, and for various reasons (some his fault and some not) our son exhausted the private school options. The "rich kid" mentality was actually stronger here in our private day schools than it was in his boarding school. He seemed to take "nurturing" better from his advisors at the boarding school than he did from us! The athletic opportunities for him were much better at the boarding school he now attends. I love it so much- I wish I could be there! I miss him and I miss being more involved in "high school life", but this is the way things have worked out for our family.
It IS a very individual decision. Most of the boarding parents I have met are deeply involved with their kids and very supportive of the school.
Karen
So that's what you call yourselves... "boarding parents". :rofl:
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Wow. Karen gets busted out again.
Karen, why do you come here and troll while pretending to be various anons? You make up stories about your child that are verifiably untrue. You proselitize about Carlbrook and WWASPS like they're your religion. Why do you do that?
I find it amusing and fitting that all the posters on this thread turn out to be just Karen trolling relentlessly while unemployed. Isn't that what you accused me of doing, Karen? For shame.
For anyone who isn't familiar with ol' Karen, she's the one who was busted out A YEAR AGO for the same thing and when she was identified as a troll from strugglingturkeys she started threatening to sue everyone.
She also came back into the HLA threads recently imploring posters to tell her my identity and my workplace so she could try to get me fired for posting here. :lol:
Some people never learn.
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DJ- do you have a problem with the truth? Everything you just said is a complete lie. If someone was trying to "out" you, I suggest you look elsewhere for their identity.
As for WWASP- what are you talking about?
What's with all the lies? Can't you state your case without totally inventing things and attacking others?
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Can't you state your case without totally inventing things and attacking others?
I have.
Take a look at what you've posted.
Rife with inconsistency, posing as others, making up stories about how "great" your son is doing and how the academics at Carlbrook are "outstanding," yet your kid needs to rely on atheltic scholarships to get into college (read your posts about poor SAT's and no interest from top schools), saying "I'm not Karen," etc.
Karen, your whole life is a lie. Very interesting.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-04-17 06:04 ]
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On 2006-04-17 05:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
Can't you state your case without totally inventing things and attacking others?
"
Name one thing that he's "invented".
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DJ- I don't know what you are talking about. My son had excellent SATs and grades, and I never said otherwise. The schools he applied to do not offer athletic scholarships- if you are recruited you get a tip with admissions, but you still need to have top academics. He applied Early Decision to one of the top schools in the country and was accepted. He is bound to that school. He was accepted Early Action to another top school. What is your problem?
My son did NOT finish Carlbrook. I think we have established that. He was there for 9 months. He attended another school after Carlbrook for two years.
I have no information about the WWASP programs and never supported them. It sounds to me as if they are abusive.
I did not ask anyone for your identity. That is a complete misstatement by you. I could care less where you work or if you get fired.
Now, why don't you stick to the facts of your mission. I'm impressed that your friends dug up some posts I made on a college message board a year and a half ago. So what? If you want to attack, me, have at it. There is no need to take things out of context and lie.
Karen
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I didn't pay an EC. Sorry.
Karen
Really?
The EdCon never charged me for the meeting we had. I'm sure if I had needed additional help, I would have gotten a bill, but I didn't.
Karen
Oh...
Our Educational Consultant recommended a few schools which would be right for our son entering as a junior.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
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What an interesting question! I think a lot of things contributed to the academic ambitions of my kids (D soph at Rice, S hs junior at boarding school). My husband and I used a lot of financial resources to make sure the kids had the best possible education. Our public schools are very poor, so the kids went to private school and then boarding school. My husband has a PhD from large state university and my law degree is from a top 3 school (many years ago.....). Due to the personality traits that the kids inherited, we didn't have to do much to encourage good academic performance. If anything, we tried to tone things down since the schools seem to get outrageously competitive. We wanted out kids to have a life, and if that meant not attending an Ivy, that was fine. Turns out D wouldn't have touched an Ivy, but S has his sights on a few (hopefully, as a recruited athlete). Since I have discovered this board, I have become obsessed, and my new goal is to keep my obsessing AWAY from my son, who, fortunately, is tucked away in NJ at boarding school. I just want to make it clear to him that there is little room for error in the process- it will take a combination of top grades, top SATs, essays, recs etc. All his error occurred in 10th grade when he got to depart from a school...... I also want to make sure that he understands that there are LOTS of great schools and that he will wind up somewhere perfect for him. When we went through this process with D, I realized that the honors programs at the state universities were awesome and that her options were not limited to LACs. My son's boarding school strongly believes that the kids should be allowed to enjoy their high school experience and not be tortured with college admission issues until February junior year at the earliest. I'm wondering how I got through the process with my D with so little stressing. Karen
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That post explains a whole lot. Thanks for finding that! :tup:
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Doesn't it? :em: More to come!
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Posted: 2005-08-02 12:25:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KareninDallas
Member
Member # 3697
Member Status: Member
Member Number: 3697
Registered: June 03, 2003
Posts: 385
Email Address: [email protected]
Location: Dallas, TX
Occupation: Attorney
Interests: Pets, Running
Birth Date: September 12, 1952
What is your purpose in registering on this Board? (Specifics Please): Son went to wilderness and TBS
AIM ID: NikeKSA1
--------
Some sample posts to get to know our new little friend...
'Lori, I'm so sorry. Yes, maybe the message he needs is that you have stopped caring [What better way to say 'I don't care about you' to your kid then sending him away?] . He isn't 18 yet, though. Not sure of your state's law, but you are probably still legally responsible for him.'
'I'm sorry about your job- I've been "idle" for a few months, too. This lawyer-stuff isn't so secure anymore.
Karen' [unemployed with plenty of time to troll :lol:]
Trouble at work Karen.. oh , what a shame!
'Your daughter's anger is very normal. [now an authority dispensing psychological advice] Think about it- she has gotten away with her behaviors for a long time and now you have taken extreme action. She will use every tool she has to hurt and scare you. Stay strong.
Karen'
'Hiring escorts was one of the most "humane" things we ever did for our son. [speaks volumes - really it was best for you, not him] We had lost control [What good is it to have a kid you can't fully control, right?]. We could not possibly have gotten him to a program without him running from us and perhaps being lost to us forever. The compassionate, professional escorts we hired had an extremely difficult time transporting our son, but they never once gave up or abused him in any way, even when he nearly killed them and himself by grabbing the steering wheel of the car from the backseat. My son never questioned our use of escorts, even in his anger at being in wilderness and later at TBS. Today we are the proud parents of a student-athlete who is achieving his full potential.'
'We didn't talk to our son for 7 or 8 weeks. We received and wrote weekly letters which were faxed in both directions. I think it is better for the kids- and the parents- NOT to speak. Obviously the dialogue at home was not productive, and that dynamic can interfere with the therapeutic process. The therapist at wilderness knew when the time was right for a short phone call.
We are ALL parents here, but sometimes removing yourself from the enmeshment is the best thing for all involved.'
'Well- both of mine were screwed up.[surprise, surprise] Daughter acted "in" and handled her depression by cutting. We were able to treat her locally and a change in school environment helped a lot. She remained successful academically through the whole thing. Son acted "out" and required programs. Lots of their issues arose from our parenting, but not all. It is a tough time to be a teenager, and a tough time to be a parent.'
'You guys forgot "spend too much"!
Even my wonderful, talented, brilliant 20 year old daughter who just finished a ministry discernment internship can be surly, self-centered and generally unpleasant. On occasion, I refer to her as "Reverend B----".'
responding to criticism of BRAT CAMP'
'Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I am just not that horrified by it. I DO worry about the effect on the kids, but to me it is better for the mass public to view than Survivor or Anna Nicole Smith et al. If some viewing parents see these teens and hear their behavior described and realize that their own teens are in desperate need of help, then the show will have done some good. ['good' like filling beds at RTC's] I meet many families who try to "stick it out" and think some of these really risky behaviors are "normal teen stuff". Maybe this show will wake some people up.'
'Lori- good for you for getting him back to the RTC. I know it is hard, but what a relief for you to know that he is safe and working on his problem. My son told me that many, many of the kids from his TBS have fallen back into their old patterns. It is, unfortunately, very common,[What about that stellar success rate and the 100% of kids who enjoyed and valued the seminars? Maybe it doesn't work after all?] despite our best efforts as parents. Keep us posted on his progress.'
'Overlordd, your credibility on this site is non-existent. Please go back to Dev-ville, or whereever you came from.'[Nobody has worse credibility than you, Karen, and we know you won't go away :lol: ]
----------------
How sad to be this woman's children.
Sad but true.
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On 2006-04-17 06:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Doesn't it? :em: More to come!"
Can't wait. Neither can Karen.
I'm impressed that your friends dug up some posts I made on a college message board a year and a half ago. So what? If you want to attack, me, have at it.
You heard the lady.
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Isn't there a psychological term for parents who see their kids as a direct extension of themselves? This woman isn't looking to raise a healthy adult, she wants a drone who will stay in line, do as told to make her appear a "successful parent". She seems much more concerened with status than the actual well being of her kids.
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Not hard to see why you can't keep a job as a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL-
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On 2006-04-17 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not hard to see why you can't keep a job as a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL- "
Well, it's a good thing cuz I'm NOT one.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Learn more about Karen, from her own internet postings.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=37&0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14957&forum=37&0)
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Webb is a strong prep school but not as well-known as the NE schools. Educational consultants are very high on it. It is a fairly small school and has a good community. It is highly regarded and will be viewed favorably by an admissions committee.
You sure seem plugged into the EDCon world, Karen, for someone who never used one.
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I didn't pay an EC. Sorry.
Karen
We actually made the initial choice without an EdCon (after research). The programs we picked were excellent and no one profited at all from our decision. When we did bring in a local EdCon, we paid her a very low flat fee. She also helped us with choices of future schools and colleges.
Our kid was very angry initially, but got a lot out of both programs, by his own admission. So-sorry-we are one of the success stories, of which there are many.
It is really sad that some of you have so much anger and are unwilling to understand that for most of these kids, program placement is the right thing. I agree that there are exceptions, but your ignorance and anger are clouding what is left of your brain.
Woops- caught in another lie, Karen.
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On 2006-04-17 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not hard to see why you can't keep a job as a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL- "
...or you as a lawyer... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
this lady is the ultimate loser.
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On 2006-04-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I didn't pay an EC. Sorry.
Karen
We actually made the initial choice without an EdCon (after research). The programs we picked were excellent and no one profited at all from our decision. When we did bring in a local EdCon, we paid her a very low flat fee. She also helped us with choices of future schools and colleges.
Our kid was very angry initially, but got a lot out of both programs, by his own admission. So-sorry-we are one of the success stories, of which there are many.
It is really sad that some of you have so much anger and are unwilling to understand that for most of these kids, program placement is the right thing. I agree that there are exceptions, but your ignorance and anger are clouding what is left of your brain.
Woops- caught in another lie, Karen."
For shame, Karen. So many lies, and caught so many times doing it. ::bangin::
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Holy shit, this is too fucking funny.
:rofl: :rofl:
Nice work guys! :tup:
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On 2006-04-17 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not hard to see why you can't keep a job as a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL- "
This was for DJ. DJ knows I'm not Karen. I just like to point out when he is being particularly childish and unprofessional. DJ, it's unbecoming for a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL such as yourself. Talk about a strawman...pick on this Karen person when there is some positive remarks being made about Carlbrook.
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On 2006-04-17 09:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-17 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not hard to see why you can't keep a job as a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL- "
This was for DJ. DJ knows I'm not Karen. I just like to point out when he is being particularly childish and unprofessional. DJ, it's unbecoming for a MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL such as yourself. Talk about a strawman...pick on this Karen person when there is some positive remarks being made about Carlbrook. "
Hi, Karen. You're not fooling anyone.
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I agree, she is definitely not fooling anyone. She's been pulling the same shit since she first arrived.
Wrong on all fronts- I'm not Karen and I don't hate teenagers and especially not my kids.
I simply agree with the other Anon and ShortBus that it is ridiculous to take the position that all programs are bad. That simply isn't true. It is a shame Deborah's son had a bad experience at Hidden Lake (several years ago, I believe). Hidden Lake has been a good program for many kids- and has not been good for some kids. None of us want ANY teen to be in a bad or abusive program.
You lose all your credibility by condemning all EG programs across the board. You also lose credibility with the insane posters like Nihil and Dysfunctional. It really hurts your cause, if the cause truly is to expose and shut down abusive programs. It seems to me that the cause has become more simply to amuse yourselves all day on the internet.
Why do you lie so much Karen?
Oh right, "you're not Karen". :rofl:
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Shortbus- Deborah's whole gripe is that she was NOT the one who sent her kids away. She actually lost custody of them and it was her ex-husband (with custody) who sent them away. So, clearly, they were totally screwed up before they were removed from her. This is her whole agenda- she fights all programs because she has an axe to grind against her ex-husband. She HAS to say all programs are bad because that makes her ex-husband the bad guy who ruined her wonderful kids.
Remember when you came here spewing this crap, Karen?
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Talk about a strawman...pick on this Karen person when there is some positive remarks being made about Carlbrook.
I think the point being made is that virtually none of you (Karen or otherwise) tell the truth about anything.
Any "positive remarks" about Carlbrook are hard to take seriously because some of you just blatantly and aggressively prevaricate everything from your child's history, grades, current functionality, your background, the use of escorts, etc.
In any case, there are two or three parents who posts about their "positive experiences," including Karen who has lied about almost everything she has posted.
Attacking her credibility is hardly a strawman when it is she who holds herself out as an authority.
What do you think about a fellow "program parent" so desperately trying to make herself and Carlbrook look good that she has caught herself in so many provable lies? How do you feel this helps promote the credibility of other program parents? Why have you not admonished Karen for lying and diminishing the credibility of all of you? Are you such an ideologue that you miss the sentient point that liars in your camp reflect poorly on all of you?
Isn't your attacking my professionalism the real strawman in this case? It seems so. What in the world does my demeanor have to do with all of the prevarications submitted by Karen?
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I don't know Karen and frankly don't respect her for taking her kid out early. My kid finished and we have nothing but praise for the program. Every time a parent or a student of Carlbrook posts here, your little buddies accuse them of being Karen. I do think Karen was a bit ashamed that her kid wasn't a perfect conformist but, believe me, I don't give a crap about how anyone perceives my kid. Most former Carlbrook parents are relieved their kids got better and went on the better things. The Carlbrook "grads" don't recognize kids or parents that didn't have enough guts and courage to let go of the control and let the process happen. Karen is not a proper spokesman for the school.
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Karen doesn't even post unless she's provoked. Her postings have little to do with Carlbrook and more to do with defending herself. It reminds me of "Beetlejuice". Say Karen, Karen, Karen and she shows up. You have to admit DJ, when a new poster comes on here with some positive statements, the childish emoticons appear and the Karen bashing begins. I haven't been on this site in about a month and it's the same story- over and over again. Karen is not a proper Carlbrook representative.
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On 2006-04-17 11:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen doesn't even post unless she's provoked. Her postings have little to do with Carlbrook and more to do with defending herself. It reminds me of "Beetlejuice". Say Karen, Karen, Karen and she shows up. You have to admit DJ, when a new poster comes on here with some positive statements, the childish emoticons appear and the Karen bashing begins. I haven't been on this site in about a month and it's the same story- over and over again. Karen is not a proper Carlbrook representative."
You sure know a lot about Karen. :lol:
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You have to admit DJ, when a new poster comes on here with some positive statements, the childish emoticons appear and the Karen bashing begins.
Yes, I agree. Others get bashed because Karen has posed as so many different people and has been caught red-handed lying about it (and many other things besides her identity) and some of the bashing gets generalized due this phenomenon.
As to your statement that "new posters" come on here with positive responses, well, there are really only three of you (Karen is one) and none of you are new. I'd be glad to have Ginger string together your posts (and the other two supporters) under a username to prove this point beyond doubt. May I go ahead do this for you?
Karen is not a proper Carlbrook representative.
Agreed.
Every time a parent or a student of Carlbrook posts here, your little buddies accuse them of being Karen.
One, nobody here is my "little buddy" and I don't personally know any other other posters besides Ginger with whom I've spoken by telephone.
Two, there's only three of you - I'll illustrate it if you like, just give the word.
I do think Karen was a bit ashamed that her kid wasn't a perfect conformist but, believe me, I don't give a crap about how anyone perceives my kid.
So, is the goal conformity? Does conformance equate with success? This statement is a bit bizarre, no?
The Carlbrook "grads" don't recognize kids or parents that didn't have enough guts and courage to let go of the control and let the process happen.
Funny you say this because this is one of the defining characteristics of a cult: nonconformers are ostracized and discarded. This disturbs me if this is the attitude of Carlbrook, its "graduates," or the parents of attendees. This is quite vexing commentary indeed.
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On 2006-04-17 09:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Shortbus- Deborah's whole gripe is that she was NOT the one who sent her kids away. She actually lost custody of them and it was her ex-husband (with custody) who sent them away. So, clearly, they were totally screwed up before they were removed from her. This is her whole agenda- she fights all programs because she has an axe to grind against her ex-husband. She HAS to say all programs are bad because that makes her ex-husband the bad guy who ruined her wonderful kids.
Remember when you came here spewing this crap, Karen? "
:eek: :eek: That's not nice Karen!
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On 2006-04-17 10:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I don't know Karen and frankly don't respect her for taking her kid out early. My kid finished and we have nothing but praise for the program. Every time a parent or a student of Carlbrook posts here, your little buddies accuse them of being Karen. I do think Karen was a bit ashamed that her kid wasn't a perfect conformist but, believe me, I don't give a crap about how anyone perceives my kid. Most former Carlbrook parents are relieved their kids got better and went on the better things. The Carlbrook "grads" don't recognize kids or parents that didn't have enough guts and courage to let go of the control and let the process happen. Karen is not a proper spokesman for the school."
Abandon all instinct, individuality and critical thought and just Trust The Process.
::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke:: ::puke::
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On 2006-04-17 10:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
your little buddies accuse them of being Karen.
I accused Karen of being Karen because she WAS Karen.
I don't know DJ. I respect the hell out of him but never met or spoken with him, no IM, PM or anything else. It's just that obvious when she posts.
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What proccess are you referring to? Did you take a survey of all parents that graduated the school? How do you know that "most former Carlbrook parents are relieved their kids got better and went on to better things" Are you referring to the process of residential treatment which the government concludes is ineffective? So parents should be condemned for taking their kids out of residential treatment? Why will no one inform us about the process of those workshops. Your kids must have told you about the exercises. Or are your communications still that bad. Those workshops are starting to scare me.
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On 2006-04-17 11:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen doesn't even post unless she's provoked. Her postings have little to do with Carlbrook and more to do with defending herself. It reminds me of "Beetlejuice". Say Karen, Karen, Karen and she shows up. You have to admit DJ, when a new poster comes on here with some positive statements, the childish emoticons appear and the Karen bashing begins. I haven't been on this site in about a month and it's the same story- over and over again. Karen is not a proper Carlbrook representative."
OH, I'd say she's the perfect representative of a program parent gone mad.
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On 2006-04-17 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
OH, I'd say she's the perfect representative of a program parent gone mad."
But you repeat yourself.
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:question:
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OH my, don't forget to "let go of the control"!!!!!
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The Carlbrook "grads" don't recognize kids or parents that didn't have enough guts and courage to let go of the control and let the process happen.
This statement is funny. It is akin the one made earlier by the same poster that Carlbrook parents are a "different breed."
What is so striking about this type of response is the "blue-blooded snob" attitude has been extrapolated from the Country Club or the Ivy League or the President's Club (i.e. snobishness based on socioeconomic status) to the treatment world.
"My kid went to a top-five residential psychiatric facility. They don't take just anyone you know."
Weird. Very Weird.
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"Many Carlbrook supporters" my ass. There is only Karen and now that she's been busted for lying about everything again she's gone.
Anyone else notice that since Karen left so did all the "other" anons?
Karen and her multiple personalities were all of them. :lol:
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Yep, I noticed. :nworthy:
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Is it possible to use proxies to make it appear as multiple posters?
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On *this* board? You don't even need proxies.
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Well, I am an Anon and I ain't Karen! You can have DJ or Ginger, those sly donkeys, check the IP address.
I have stopped posting because I am simply disgusted. However, Karen-whoever you think she may be- has served her purpose because she has led all you little idiots down a path where you have made total fools out of yourselves. Do you think anyone actually CARES what this person posted on some other message forum? Do you think anyone wanting information on whether a program is safe wants to wade through all the crap you have posted? You have shown yourselves to be stupid and mean. So, we are all having the last laugh.
For the Anon who said Karen isn't a good spokesperson for Carlbrook because she took her kid out of the program doesn't know what she is talking about. I was in a similar situation and when you test the flexibility of a school you learn a whole lot more about it than if you blindly believe everything they tell you. Some kids don't conform- and that can be a very good thing. If it meant the kid having to leave early for some reason- and Karen's reason was pretty good (not to mention the fact that Carlbrook made him leave because he was accepted into other schools)-that still doesn't mean that the program didn't do some good.
So-enjoy bashing Karen and all the other anons who you think are Karen. Make total fools out of yourself. DJ in particular really revealed what he is all about and I have enjoyed watching him steep himself in shit.
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Nah, Karen is still here. Check out the post two previous to this one. Yep- that's Karen.
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I went to large state U (Indiana), which was out of state for me. I chose it because I was a music major. Well, turned out the music school was too good for MY level of talent! I wound up majoring in business and going to a top law school (Chicago). In retrospect, I did not have enough "like minded peers" at Indiana. I enjoyed many things about my years there, but academically I would have been happier and more challenged at a smaller university or LAC. I did develop a passion for college basketball, which, believe it or not, has served me very well in the business world. (Lesson to all you smart kids out there- don't underestimate things like that.)
Karen
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Well, turned out the music school was too good for MY level of talent!
So what instrument do you suck at, Karen?
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On 2006-04-19 20:04:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I think Karen has developed into a fornits metaphor for all the program supporters who stroll their way onto fornits in the guise of an anon.
At this point she has been reduced to the board boogey man who the blame for all low brow hijinks put out by dastardly program supporting anons.
When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat
"
Karen loves to deny her identity, I would be ashamed of myself too if I were her. This wouldn't be the first time!
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =15#189403 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14957&forum=37&start=15#189403)
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Ya know what- why don't you take your little game somewhere else. I promise you that no one gives a crap about these posts and why you would want to keep looking all over the internet for them defies understanding.
I AM NOT KAREN. BUT YOU ARE A TOTAL FUCK.
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BUT YOU ARE A TOTAL FUCK.
:cry: No wonder your kids rebelled against you.
another lovely by karen
Oh, good. Dysfunctional is back. How did we manage without his insightful comments. I think we should all go by the name Karen, since you idiots think only one person (the alleged Karen) opposes your one-trick show here.
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few more lovelies by karen
this is what karen tells struggling trolls
Well- both of mine were screwed up. Daughter acted "in" and handled her depression by cutting. We were able to treat her locally and a change in school environment helped a lot. She remained successful academically through the whole thing. Son acted "out" and required programs. Lots of their issues arose from our parenting, but not all. It is a tough time to be a teenager, and a tough time to be a parent.
this is what she tells the wanna be ivy league parents
I have never regretted sending my kids to boarding school. My daughter went as a junior so that she could have specialized training in music. She needed to be with "like-minded peers", as we say on this board. I missed her, but it was the right thing for her. I was able to nurture her from afar and by the time she was 16 there wasn't a lot of day to day nurturing going on in our home anyway!
Our public school system is awful, and for various reasons (some his fault and some not) our son exhausted the private school options. The "rich kid" mentality was actually stronger here in our private day schools than it was in his boarding school. He seemed to take "nurturing" better from his advisors at the boarding school than he did from us! The athletic opportunities for him were much better at the boarding school he now attends. I love it so much- I wish I could be there! I miss him and I miss being more involved in "high school life", but this is the way things have worked out for our family.
It IS a very individual decision. Most of the boarding parents I have met are deeply involved with their kids and very supportive of the school.
Karen
Notice a few differences?
:rofl:
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I think Eudora can solve the mystery, I have read the Pro Carlbrook Anon posts and they don?t seem to be written by the same person.. I read back 10?s of pages and haven?t found many posts by students who had a bad experience at Carlbrook either. Looks like people are using this person ?Karen? to flood the thread because there is no first hand negative information to be found on Carlbrook but plenty of positive supporters, from an outsider/newcomer it is very transparent and not very effective. The immaturity and lack of credible dialog is also apparent.
Just an observation.
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On 2006-04-19 19:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, I am an Anon and I ain't Karen! You can have DJ or Ginger, those sly donkeys, check the IP address.
I have stopped posting because I am simply disgusted. However, Karen-whoever you think she may be- has served her purpose because she has led all you little idiots down a path where you have made total fools out of yourselves. Do you think anyone actually CARES what this person posted on some other message forum? Do you think anyone wanting information on whether a program is safe wants to wade through all the crap you have posted? You have shown yourselves to be stupid and mean. So, we are all having the last laugh.
For the Anon who said Karen isn't a good spokesperson for Carlbrook because she took her kid out of the program doesn't know what she is talking about. I was in a similar situation and when you test the flexibility of a school you learn a whole lot more about it than if you blindly believe everything they tell you. Some kids don't conform- and that can be a very good thing. If it meant the kid having to leave early for some reason- and Karen's reason was pretty good (not to mention the fact that Carlbrook made him leave because he was accepted into other schools)-that still doesn't mean that the program didn't do some good.
So-enjoy bashing Karen and all the other anons who you think are Karen. Make total fools out of yourself. DJ in particular really revealed what he is all about and I have enjoyed watching him steep himself in shit."
::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby::
you seem to be very angry and taking it personally and know a lot about karen and write just like her.
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lack of credible dialog is also apparent.
yes. the lack of credible dialogUE is very apparent in all of your posts. that's true. you and karen have a lot in common.
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Are you guys not understanding the difference between kids going to regular boarding schools for academic or other reasons and going to therapeutic programs? It seems pretty clear to me that Karen's kids went to some pretty good schools and that only her son was at Carlbrook for awhile.
You seem to be lifting posts out of context from other forums. I see nothing inconsistent in anything you have put on here and you are continuing to hide the REAL point, which is that you have nothing to say about CARLBROOK!
I guess you are trying to show us how clever you are at finding posts by someone from other forums and putting them on this site. If I recall, none of these posts are even within the past year. Very impressive indeed.
All this started because DJ got his hand slapped last week and went away with his tail between his legs and had to come back swinging to establish his rightful place as the King of Fornits. He seems to like to do this by vomiting his anger on others. It is all perfectly obvious, and I doubt Karen gives a shit since this forum is not exactly anything reputable.
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Hello again, Karen. :wave:
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I don't think you "decide" the way you are suggesting. Circumstances change and kids change. If you asked me when my D was 14 if I would send her to boarding school at 16, I would have told you "No Way". But when she was unhappy in her elite private day school at the end of her sophomore year and it was suggested to us that we look at Interlochen for her, I was open to the idea. It took visiting the school and seeing that there was a totally different option for her- one that we had never considered.
To tell you the truth, it is not all that easy having my son home for Christmas break! I worry every time he is out with the car. When he is away at school he isn't driving and his day seems very orderly. I am glad to see him, of course, but I seem to sleep a little better when he is at school.
When you send a kid to boarding school, you aren't banishing them from your household. They are home all summer (or a lot of the summer) and the breaks tend to be longer than what public schools have. You can go visit and attend parents' weekend, athletic events etc. I talk to my son almost every day (probably more than he would like) and we chat online. He is not the type of kid who would sit by our side every evening if he were home.
It is just one option and one choice.
Karen
You can't live in the same house as your kids and you sure give a lot of parenting advice. :roll:
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On 2006-04-20 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you guys not understanding the difference between kids going to regular boarding schools for academic or other reasons and going to therapeutic programs? It seems pretty clear to me that Karen's kids went to some pretty good schools and that only her son was at Carlbrook for awhile.
You seem to be lifting posts out of context from other forums. I see nothing inconsistent in anything you have put on here and you are continuing to hide the REAL point, which is that you have nothing to say about CARLBROOK!
I guess you are trying to show us how clever you are at finding posts by someone from other forums and putting them on this site. If I recall, none of these posts are even within the past year. Very impressive indeed.
All this started because DJ got his hand slapped last week and went away with his tail between his legs and had to come back swinging to establish his rightful place as the King of Fornits. He seems to like to do this by vomiting his anger on others. It is all perfectly obvious, and I doubt Karen gives a shit since this forum is not exactly anything reputable."
::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby::
somebody, feed the baby, shes crying again!! must be strange typing in third person, karen.
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I am not Karen. I guess it is hard for you to believe that there are other people out here who recognize morons like you.
Is anyone who can write and spell now known as Karen? Fine with me.
In that case, there are several Karens on this board-
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On 2006-04-20 06:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am not Karen. I guess it is hard for you to believe that there are other people out here who recognize morons like you.
Is anyone who can write and spell now known as Karen? Fine with me.
In that case, there are several Karens on this board- "
::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::mecry::
Go tell mommy now.
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To tell you the truth, it is not all that easy having my son home for Christmas break! I worry every time he is out with the car. When he is away at school he isn't driving and his day seems very orderly. I am glad to see him, of course, but I seem to sleep a little better when he is at school.
Parenting is not about what is easiest.
I am sure your son -- while locked up -- went to bed happy everynight knowing his mother slept better at night with him not being around.
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Are you kids jealous because you didn't get to go to boarding school? Sounds like it. I wish we could have afforded to give our kids that opportunity. Several of my daughter's friends went to New England boarding schools and they absolutely loved it.
From what you are posting, it sounds like Karen's kids had some great education and it's neat that her family could provide that. The kids who go to boarding schools are not exactly locked up- far from it. They go to NYC on the weekends, go to Europe for breaks with classmates and make lifelong friends.
Now go back to flipping burgers.
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Jealous that my mother couldn't sleep in the same house as me? Yeah..... :rofl: :roll: Karen, you crack me up. :lol:
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All this started because DJ got his hand slapped last week and went away with his tail between his legs
What are you talking about? Please provide some specifics on what you are talking about, because it bears no resemblence to reality. I haven't been posting because I've been traveling and haven't had time. Please don't inflate your self-worth by thinking you can control me in any fashion - you can't.
I don't recall any of you saying anything to refute a single item I have posted. All I see is you trying to attack me personally for some contrived reason.
Show me where you have ever responded to any reasonable questions/comments with anything other than "you are shitheads." It seems to me that your lack of understanding of the issues and your inabilty to express your viewpoint (if you have one) simply degenerates into your calling names.
I don't recall where you have either made a valid argument about the clinical validity of Carlbrook or have adequately responded to anyone's questioning. Instead you put your fingers in your ears and say "You're shitheads! You're stupid!"
It's obvious that you are lacking the intellectual werewithal to engage in meaningful debate, but your behavior illustrates why you were a terrible parent in the first place and is likely the etiological origin of your children's problems. Put simply: you act like a child.
If you are an emotional toddler, how can you effectively raise a child? Well, you can't. That's why your kid "required" psychiatric placement - you couldn't deal with the feelings surrounding child-rearing so you sent them away.
Anytime you'd like to debate the issues, please feel free to post something meaningful.
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"Anytime you'd like to debate the issues, please feel free to post something meaningful"
Thats what we do DJ, except when someone doesnt agree with you, we have to listen to you cry about being attacked. Dont try to turn it around, grow up!!
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Carlbrook has no business advertising itself as a therapeutic place for kids with emotional and substance abuse issues. For example, they are not licensed by the Virginia Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse. You can look up licensed mental health and substance abuse programs here: http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp (http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp)
Who is crazy? The critics? Not based upon my research! Parents who send kids here do so at their own risk. There is minimal outside oversight at this facility. This program (because it is for-profit and nonreliant upon taxpayer funding, Medicaid, and private insurance) has a lot of freedom to "therapize" kids as they see fit. Carlbrook and its practitioners are not beholden to the same regulations as licensed providers.
They claim to treat kids with emotional problems. Why is there no psychiatrist (MD) on staff? Why is there only 1 licensed clinician in a long list of clinicians ("advisors")?
For $5700+ per month, I could think of research proven effective, safe, and less restrictive ways to treat kids with problems. And the parents would have more money in their pockets.
Emotional growth programs? Wilderness Therapy?They don't teach that garbage in any reputable, ethical, clinical graduate program. Why? Because it is NOT research proven effective.
LMSW Woman
"
Unlicensed, unaccredited, not effective, extremely expensive...Sounds great!
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On 2006-04-20 12:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Anytime you'd like to debate the issues, please feel free to post something meaningful"
Thats what we do DJ, except when someone doesnt agree with you, we have to listen to you cry about being attacked. Dont try to turn it around, grow up!!"
This is simply not true. This is just another diversion.
I don't cry about anything. I just point out that you have nothing to say so you personally attack others. Again, don't conflate the issues.
This post is illustrative of my point: nothing of substance and an ad hominem fallacy. You're a one-trick pony.
BTW, who's "we"? You're the only one posting.
Respond with something meaningful or go suck your thumb in the corner.
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DJ, "we" (all of us) dont buy it anymore, go back to HLA.
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On 2006-04-20 12:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DJ, "we" (all of us) dont buy it anymore, go back to HLA."
So, nothing meaningful then? Why can't you just say that you have nothing to say?
"All of us" as in your multiple personalities? There's still only you posting...
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"multiple personalities"
Still making fun a people, just cant shake it. Mental health professional? Hmmmmm, i am a neurosurgeon, with a minor in rocket science. Want me to list my degrees?
HLA wants you back. Bye
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On 2006-04-20 12:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
""multiple personalities"
Still making fun a people, just cant shake it. Mental health professional? Hmmmmm, i am a neurosurgeon, with a minor in rocket science. Want me to list my degrees?
HLA wants you back. Bye"
What else am I supposed to call it when you keep referring to your singular self as "we"? I'm not making fun of you. I'm just pointing out an idiosyncrasy of yours. You either are MPD or you are so pompous that you refer to yourself as "we." Either way, it's a problem you should learn to deal with more effectively.
Just so you know, I'm NEVER LEAVING. If you can't deal with that fact, move on.
That's three posts in a row with nothing to say. For someone with nothing to say, you sure talk a lot! :lol:
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And your contribution is? I think you said less with more words!! and your point?
You can stay, just stick with the subject matter and discuss properly, no need to attack people, just challenge the ideas. Try not to label people or tag them with mental disorders, it is childish and an immature way to redirect the topic. If you feel you cant contribute there are plenty of other threads who will accept yuor anger and ridicule and you will fit in
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You can stay, just stick with the subject matter and discuss properly, no need to attack people, just challenge the ideas.
One, I don't require your permission for anything, ever.
Two, I stay on topic nearly all of the time, except when debunking your personal attacks.
Three, you are the primary diverter of the subject matter and the most vulgar and vile epithet-hurler.
Four, I have consistently challenged your ideas using data from clinical studies of the adolescent population, six years of education and ten years of treatment experience. You, on the other hand, resort to childish, nasty vituperations due to your lack of understanding of the issues and the science surrounding them.
Take your own advice.
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I will take #2 as a sincere effort to comply (the rest , well, is smoke,and will let it go) lets stay focused on topic in the future.
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data from clinical studies of the adolescent population, six years of education and ten years of treatment experience.
this isn't called 'smoke'. it's called education, experience and valid clinical information. you might not be familiar with these concepts, but it doesn't lessen their importance.
what about what this practicing, licensed clinician has to say?
Carlbrook has no business advertising itself as a therapeutic place for kids with emotional and substance abuse issues. For example, they are not licensed by the Virginia Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse. You can look up licensed mental health and substance abuse programs here: http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp (http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp)
Who is crazy? The critics? Not based upon my research! Parents who send kids here do so at their own risk. There is minimal outside oversight at this facility. This program (because it is for-profit and nonreliant upon taxpayer funding, Medicaid, and private insurance) has a lot of freedom to "therapize" kids as they see fit. Carlbrook and its practitioners are not beholden to the same regulations as licensed providers.
They claim to treat kids with emotional problems. Why is there no psychiatrist (MD) on staff? Why is there only 1 licensed clinician in a long list of clinicians ("advisors")?
For $5700+ per month, I could think of research proven effective, safe, and less restrictive ways to treat kids with problems. And the parents would have more money in their pockets.
Emotional growth programs? Wilderness Therapy?They don't teach that garbage in any reputable, ethical, clinical graduate program. Why? Because it is NOT research proven effective.
LMSW Woman
seems like a pretty reasonable critique of carlbrook to me. i trust the people who work in legitimate practices, not some anonymous parent who has a vested interest in promoting carlbrook.
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On 2006-02-18 05:58:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-02-17 16:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anonymous poster who doubts my existence: I just looked in the mirror, and yes, I am real. No, I did not think I was sending him to "golf camp", I thought I was sending him to an environment that fosters "intellectual, social, and personal development" as Carlbrook told me. You might have viewed it as a punishment I did not. My mistake. I came here to share my own experience and I find your rudeness and dismissiveness rather ironic considering your warnings earlier. Nobody else has been rude to me other than you. I suggest you take a look at your own actions before condemning everyone else. -Joe"
Hey, Joe. Thank you for sharing your experience with Carlbrook on the board. What you are saying does not surprise me in the least.
Your observation about this anon Carlbrook supporter is spot on. S/he came on here and began to rudely insult everyone in a "preemptive" fashion. This is typical of control-freak types that can't stand to have alternative viewpoints expressed.
That being said, people like Her/him support the program blindly. They have taken a leap of faith and have discarded the scientific method entirely. As I have explained before, these type of programs are not the "latest and greatest," but rather are the dredged up, cobbled-together pieces of behavioral science and psychotherapy that the professional mental health society had debunked and cast aside decades ago. Carlbrook is doing nothing more than rehashing the obvious mistakes of treatment modalities long dead and buried by scientific method and clinical study. The facts are that Carlbrook's methods have been debunked, proven ineffective and shown to cause damage to the developing mind for DECADES.
To reiterate: There is NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY CLINICAL STUDY THAT SUPPORTS THIS TYPE OF TREATMENT. Yet there are several dozens of clinical studies that show this methodology causes DAMAGE such as PTSD (just to name one).
So, what we are dealing with here, Joe, is people who refuse to look at proven fact so that they may retreat into "good feelings" doled out by the folks that fleeced them out of their money and hurt their children. These are the same type of people who believe in "Intelligent Design." They will cast aside proven fact and embrace insane concepts, so long as they can feel "right" about it in the end.
Welcome to the board and please don't be discouraged by crackpots and flamers. Any intelligent, fact and reality based assessment of the precious program will be met with extreme hostility and ad hominem attacks. It comes with the territory."
Joe was very unsatisfied with Carlbrook, to say the least. He was harangued for saying so.
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On 2006-02-01 02:09:00, Carlbrook Graduate wrote:
"Ha. You don't think I went to Carlbrook? Ask me anything you wish kind sir. Integritas, Amicitia, Animus, Teneo, Veneratio? Who's your hero? What about your truth? Or how about your superhero? No, I know, what's your lie? What about your nightmare? How about you go do some bioenergetics? Go listen to your fucking Mike and the Mechanics, or do you not remember the song it's not easy? I don't know who you are and I honestly don't care. I speak from my experiences and I don't speak for anybody but myself. I say what I saw with my eyes during my incarceration. Yes, I said incarceration. What else do you call a place that the staff is able to withhold and monitor all your communications with family and friends? Where you are monitored by security at night and every window and door has an alarm? Don't try to discredit me because you can't believe the truth."
This kid seems to have had an awful experience at Carlbrook. What he describes is a "typical" program, not something "new" and "better."
Look at their staff. Nearly all of the top dogs are from abusive, shut-down programs. Some were at multiple closed-for-abuse programs. Some don't tell the truth on their bios and omit the abusive programs they ran.
"Meet our Director, Michael Recycle." Same names, same game, ain't nothin' changed...
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On 2006-04-20 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Carlbrook has no business advertising itself as a therapeutic place for kids with emotional and substance abuse issues. For example, they are not licensed by the Virginia Office of Mental Health and Substance Abuse. You can look up licensed mental health and substance abuse programs here: http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp (http://www.dmhmrsas.virginia.gov/SVC-LPS-orgresult.asp)
Who is crazy? The critics? Not based upon my research! Parents who send kids here do so at their own risk. There is minimal outside oversight at this facility. This program (because it is for-profit and nonreliant upon taxpayer funding, Medicaid, and private insurance) has a lot of freedom to "therapize" kids as they see fit. Carlbrook and its practitioners are not beholden to the same regulations as licensed providers.
They claim to treat kids with emotional problems. Why is there no psychiatrist (MD) on staff? Why is there only 1 licensed clinician in a long list of clinicians ("advisors")?
For $5700+ per month, I could think of research proven effective, safe, and less restrictive ways to treat kids with problems. And the parents would have more money in their pockets.
Emotional growth programs? Wilderness Therapy?They don't teach that garbage in any reputable, ethical, clinical graduate program. Why? Because it is NOT research proven effective.
LMSW Woman
"
Unlicensed, unaccredited, not effective, extremely expensive...Sounds great!"
:scared: :scared: :rofl:
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Like to jump in and respond here if I may. I think it is fair to view it as smoke, any of us can claim to have experience and degrees, but none of us really know for sure, we need to depend on whether the persons posts are credible or in line with other professionals we have met in the past. If a person claims to be a professional football player and shows up for practice with their shoulder pads on backwards and doesn?t hold the ball properly, no need to dig much further. If a person claims to be in the mental health field and then ridicules those who disagree with them by labeling them with various mental health ailments, bullies, prejudicial jokes and is insensitive, it really doesn?t matter how many degrees that person claims to have and one could, legitimately, view it as smoke.
I think what ?LMSW Woman? states are valid questions on License, in house psychiatrist, of course always cost and wilderness programs are debatable. But keep in mind this is one person?s opinion.
One thing you overlooked is that many of the parents have degrees also and not all of them in the same field. They probably know their children better than anyone here and are participating in their child?s life at Carlbrook, so their information is first hand. Yes, every parent has a vested interest in their childs life, whether it be Carlbrook, other TBS, local prep school or seeing them thru their first job etc. its part of parenting, we want our kids to do well and be successful and happy.
We should continue to ask these questions as? LMSW Woman? has (and others). This will keep the pressure on the schools to continue to improve and change with the times. If graduate studies (studies of those who graduated) show there is a need for more professional staff or more parental involvement, better transition home etc. These issues need to be put on the table. There are always going to be those who do poorly and those who do extremely well (both ends of the normal curve) but we need to step back and look at how the majority are doing (if we can) and try to react to and effect/base change on this population. This forum can be a conduit to that end along with parent/student feedback.
So whether you are a professional in the field, student or parent your perspective and feedback is needed and valid, so keep it coming, it will make a difference, many people read and reference fornits on a daily bases. Two years ago many searches for fornits turned up on page 6 on a google search now Fornits is mostly on page 1 or 2 for the searches I have done, so the visibility is there, you are making a difference and helping future parents and kids make the right decision.
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On 2006-04-20 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-01 02:09:00, Carlbrook Graduate wrote:
"Ha. You don't think I went to Carlbrook? Ask me anything you wish kind sir. Integritas, Amicitia, Animus, Teneo, Veneratio? Who's your hero? What about your truth? Or how about your superhero? No, I know, what's your lie? What about your nightmare? How about you go do some bioenergetics? Go listen to your fucking Mike and the Mechanics, or do you not remember the song it's not easy? I don't know who you are and I honestly don't care. I speak from my experiences and I don't speak for anybody but myself. I say what I saw with my eyes during my incarceration. Yes, I said incarceration. What else do you call a place that the staff is able to withhold and monitor all your communications with family and friends? Where you are monitored by security at night and every window and door has an alarm? Don't try to discredit me because you can't believe the truth."
This kid seems to have had an awful experience at Carlbrook. What he describes is a "typical" program, not something "new" and "better."
Look at their staff. Nearly all of the top dogs are from abusive, shut-down programs. Some were at multiple closed-for-abuse programs. Some don't tell the truth on their bios and omit the abusive programs they ran.
"Meet our Director, Michael Recycle." Same names, same game, ain't nothin' changed..."
Two people's opinions.
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On 2006-04-20 15:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-18 05:58:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2006-02-17 16:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anonymous poster who doubts my existence: I just looked in the mirror, and yes, I am real. No, I did not think I was sending him to "golf camp", I thought I was sending him to an environment that fosters "intellectual, social, and personal development" as Carlbrook told me. You might have viewed it as a punishment I did not. My mistake. I came here to share my own experience and I find your rudeness and dismissiveness rather ironic considering your warnings earlier. Nobody else has been rude to me other than you. I suggest you take a look at your own actions before condemning everyone else. -Joe"
Hey, Joe. Thank you for sharing your experience with Carlbrook on the board. What you are saying does not surprise me in the least.
Your observation about this anon Carlbrook supporter is spot on. S/he came on here and began to rudely insult everyone in a "preemptive" fashion. This is typical of control-freak types that can't stand to have alternative viewpoints expressed.
That being said, people like Her/him support the program blindly. They have taken a leap of faith and have discarded the scientific method entirely. As I have explained before, these type of programs are not the "latest and greatest," but rather are the dredged up, cobbled-together pieces of behavioral science and psychotherapy that the professional mental health society had debunked and cast aside decades ago. Carlbrook is doing nothing more than rehashing the obvious mistakes of treatment modalities long dead and buried by scientific method and clinical study. The facts are that Carlbrook's methods have been debunked, proven ineffective and shown to cause damage to the developing mind for DECADES.
To reiterate: There is NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY CLINICAL STUDY THAT SUPPORTS THIS TYPE OF TREATMENT. Yet there are several dozens of clinical studies that show this methodology causes DAMAGE such as PTSD (just to name one).
So, what we are dealing with here, Joe, is people who refuse to look at proven fact so that they may retreat into "good feelings" doled out by the folks that fleeced them out of their money and hurt their children. These are the same type of people who believe in "Intelligent Design." They will cast aside proven fact and embrace insane concepts, so long as they can feel "right" about it in the end.
Welcome to the board and please don't be discouraged by crackpots and flamers. Any intelligent, fact and reality based assessment of the precious program will be met with extreme hostility and ad hominem attacks. It comes with the territory."
Joe was very unsatisfied with Carlbrook, to say the least. He was harangued for saying so."
Three people's opinions.
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DJ- give it up. You got hammered. You are the vile and childish one. You vomit your anger out all over anyone who dares to disagree with you. You are hilarious in your self-righteous huffing and puffing.
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On 2006-04-20 18:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DJ- give it up. You got hammered. You are the vile and childish one. You vomit your anger out all over anyone who dares to disagree with you. You are hilarious in your self-righteous huffing and puffing."
Oh, Karen - give it up already. :rofl:
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"But keep in mind this is one person?s opinion."
It's mindless bullshit like this that royally pisses me off.
That one person happens to be right, asshole. The programmie staff isn't trained properly. That's a fact, not an opinion.
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On 2006-04-19 20:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
I promise you that no one gives a crap about these posts
I promise you that they do[/b]. I personally know of 4 parents that I have communicated with from these boards that pulled their kids out of the mindrape facilities as a result of what they read here and at other links they found here. They're damn glad they did. What they found out once their children were away from the influence of those nutbags broke their hearts. The guilt was almost overwhelming.
Say what you want. There's obviously a lot more going on than you're aware of.
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Yes, I agree, Many parents do read here more and more. I have talked to parents who have moved their kids to different schools. One parent who removed their child altogether and several (who I met in a group I attend) who used this board to choose the best fit school, based on feed-back they received reading posts at fornits. My personal belief is that this trend will continue to grow due (in part) to the decline in the safety of the public school system (bullying, suicide rates, personal threats, Columbine type plans uncovered in the news, excessive drug use, drop outs etc. which contribute to the kids becoming "at risk") more and more parents will be looking to place their kids in a safer environment and fornits is becoming part of their search and education.
The negative feedback from kids who attended the schools is a natural occurrence and expected, how many kids did any of us know that enjoyed the school they attended (at the time)? Most of us considered it abusive! Parents are typically more interested in feedback from other parents, studies that refer directly to the schools they are considering and alternative schools that they had not heard of and can research off-line.
But no doubt fornits has a strong voice and has become a part of many people?s decision processes.
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No sane person would put any stock in what they might read on this site. You have made sure of that with all the attacks and digressions. All they will find is a bunch of immature mud-slinging. All credibility has been destroyed.
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On 2006-04-21 10:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No sane person would put any stock in what they might read on this site. You have made sure of that with all the attacks and digressions. All they will find is a bunch of immature mud-slinging. All credibility has been destroyed."
True, it can be a mess. Some of the other threads are much worse than this one. What I tend to do (others probably also) is find a person who you feel is credible (or shares the view you are interested in) and follow their argument/ideas thru the thread. It allows you to bypass many of the trolling/flaming etc., as you said, that can occur and skip the immature remarks. It is one of the nice things about fornits in that it affords you these options.
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On 2006-04-21 08:27:00, TheWho wrote:
"Yes, I agree, Many parents do read here more and more. I have talked to parents who have moved their kids to different schools. One parent who removed their child altogether and several (who I met in a group I attend) who used this board to choose the best fit school, based on feed-back they received reading posts at fornits. My personal belief is that this trend will continue to grow due (in part) to the decline in the safety of the public school system (bullying, suicide rates, personal threats, Columbine type plans uncovered in the news, excessive drug use, drop outs etc. which contribute to the kids becoming "at risk") more and more parents will be looking to place their kids in a safer environment and fornits is becoming part of their search and education.
The negative feedback from kids who attended the schools is a natural occurrence and expected, how many kids did any of us know that enjoyed the school they attended (at the time)? Most of us considered it abusive! Parents are typically more interested in feedback from other parents, studies that refer directly to the schools they are considering and alternative schools that they had not heard of and can research off-line.
But no doubt fornits has a strong voice and has become a part of many people?s decision processes.
"
Nice try at reverse psychology. Didn't work. We're not going to quit speaking out that sending your child away to facilities that engage in coercive mind control is a horrible mistake.
However, there are parents who *do* find the good schools by coming on Fornits. The good schools, if your child needs to get away from a town with lousy schools, are to be found in Google under "college-preparatory boarding schools." "Boarding schools" almost universally gets a search page with loads of coercive mind control facilities with inferior academics and deceptive marketing practices.
Parents can't go wrong with a traditional prep school that appeals to the mainstream of students and has been in business for more than a decade.
http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/school_overview.php (http://www.boardingschoolreview.com/school_overview.php)
*Most* of these schools won't be reform schools in disguise. YMMV on the military schools. Some military schools are good when the kid already plans on a career in the military or (perhaps) law enforcement.
I say that on military schools because my husband and brother in law were military brats, were in JROTC in their public school and just loved it. It's not for everybody, but *they* would have been as happy in military school as Brer Rabbit in the briar patch.
So the parents whose children want boarding schools who *don't* want to sucked into a deceptively marketed nightmare *can* find some help on Fornits for identifying reputable prep schools.
For kids who are in therapy or see a psychiatrist for something, any reputable prep school will understand if the kid goes into town to see a reputable, private, independent therapist or psychiatrist just as much as they'd understand if the kid needs a dermatologist or a dentist.
Real prep schools are terrific experiences for some kids. Snake oil coercive mind control facilities are for nobody.
Personally, I wouldn't take a chance on the military school in Missouri--even though they may be being tainted by association, I suppose.
The first questions I would ask if my daughter wanted to go to prep school and we decided we could afford it are: What percentage of your students graduate? What percentage of your graduates go on to attend Ivy League schools? What percentage of your graduates go on to attend post-secondary schools that are in the top ten in their US News and World Report area? What percentage of your graduates go on to attend post-secondary schools listed by USN&WR as having selective admissions? What statistics, if any, do you have on your graduates GPA at the end of their first year of college or other follow-up measures of college success? Which of your graduates feature notably in "Who's Who in America" or other, similar "Who's Who" compilations, or have made other notable public achievements?
If I was sending my kid to prep school, I'd pick the one with the best reputation she could get accepted to and we could afford. She has bipolar (probably--at this age the specific diagnosis is likely but not certain, so the doctor just prescribes meds that aren't contraindicated for the other possibilities), so I would arrange for her to attend regular appointments with specialists independent of the school at whatever town was nearby. Obviously, transportation arrangements for follow-on specialist care for a child's medical conditions, from diabetes to allergies to asthma to orthodontics to broken ankles to bipolar, get made all the time.
So perhaps you're right that parents find the good schools on Fornits.
But you're not right in the way you meant.
By the way, I loved my high school and was proud of the reputation it had in the community as a good school. My junior year I was one of five national merit semifinalists, which was quite a lot for a school of our size. I was in the band and we competed all over the place, and did well. *Most* of my graduating class loved our school while we were in it, despite all the usual adolescent drama.
The local public high school where we live is excellent, and the local kids I've met that go there, and to the other one nearby, are proud of their school and know how lucky they are to attend schools with such a good reputation.
Sure, there were things about our school we thought sucked, there were some of the staff we hated. One of the special ed teachers got her nose broken by a kid way back when, and just about everybody thought it was great. She was a real bronze-cast bitch.
But nobody tried to coercively modify our heads. The teachers who knew the various of us that were headed in a self-destructive direction tried to guide us into navigating adolescence more safely, without draconian and stupid control-freak freaking out. It worked very well. We had some kids drop out--and a lot of them pursued their GEDs or went to alternative school in the evenings. We had some kids get pregnant. We had almost all the kids get drunk occasionally, and almost everybody tried pot at least once (no, I didn't). We had a couple of kids die in a car accident. Our homecoming queen my junior year had had a baby--but she was back in school and finishing. The baby was a minor scandal with a few people. Most were impressed she had her life back on track.
My best friend from my freshman year got pregnant our sophomore year. She married the father and graduated with the rest of our class.
We had the average social problems, and the average mix of kids.
The ones that didn't get sent away to these weirdo reform schools did a lot better than the people here that did. Not having all the PTSD and nightmares and the lost adolescence was a big "better."
I went through a horrible, long episode of depression, and that stank but wasn't the school's fault. Very few of us were so miserable in school that we weren't absolutely convinced that the arch-rival school sucked. :smile:
It helped that our county had good vocational and fine arts programs the kids who were inclined to the trades or arts could attend, so college-prep wasn't forced down their throats if what they wanted to be was something completely different.
Your pessimistic picture of adolescence is all in your head, and you use it as an excuse to treat teens like objects to be strictly controlled instead of fellow human beings with hopes and dreams who are at the right age to separate from you and the nest by successfully throwing off your control.
I hate being mean, and I've almost left Fornits a couple of times because I don't like what my moral sense compels me to say, but you program parents are at best irresponsible, gullible dupes, and at worst dysfunctional, control-freak monsters.
People who do what you did, and the programs who directly perpetrate the abuse, should go to jail. I will continue to work to change the laws to make these facilities totally illegal.
Julie
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By the way, I loved my high school and was proud of the reputation it had in the community as a good school. My junior year I was one of five national merit semifinalists, which was quite a lot for a school of our size. I was in the band and we competed all over the place, and did well. *Most* of my graduating class loved our school while we were in it, despite all the usual adolescent drama.
Mine did not, at least the people I hung with. We all like it now and contribute as alimni, but not then,
Real prep schools are terrific experiences for some kids. Snake oil coercive mind control facilities are for nobody.
I think we agree 100%, this has always been my position. Fornits can help separate the good from the bad (along with others)
So perhaps you're right that parents find the good schools on Fornits.
But you're not right in the way you meant.
Disagree, I think I am.
Your pessimistic picture of adolescence is all in your head, and you use it as an excuse to treat teens like objects to be strictly controlled instead of fellow human beings with hopes and dreams who are at the right age to separate from you and the nest by successfully throwing off your control.
Naw, I just remember when I was a teen. Most of us didn?t want to be in school, we would rather be at the beach, maybe you hung with a different crowd. Any parent can exhibit too much control or too little on their kids, it is a matter of definition and the individual child. I have known kids to be able to go to their homes from school at age 12 without an adult home and be trusted, and kids who I wouldn?t trust to be home alone at 21 !!! This is an arguable point.
I hate being mean??
Then don?t, just express your point of view and critique each individual case and point, no need to lump everyone together and label them. I am just as frustrated with your closed minded approach, you cant see all the kids benefiting from these schools. Name any school in the country, say Yale, I could find kids who did poorly, committed suicide, hated their parents etc. but you assume you know cause and effect and the truth is we really don?t know. What we do know is that kids do very well and others do not. I think it would be best to put our efforts into improving what we have to benefit more kids than to head in the direction of shutting schools down and denying help to the kids who get it. This is so simple !!! (in concept, I know). But why shut down Yale university because a couple of kids do poorly, one should look at the larger population. I don?t mean to minimalize the problems, but look at a larger picture is all I am asking.
People who do what you did, and the programs who directly perpetrate the abuse, should go to jail. I will continue to work to change the laws to make these facilities totally illegal.
Aw, You had to be mean, sorry you feel that way. Wish you could speak to my daughter, you would be amazed. I have met with people who went to jail and most of them had parents who let them be kids, get in trouble and hope for the best (didnt care enough), it doesnt work (sometimes you get lucky, but thats it). We have a better chance of connecting cause and effect there then we do with kids that do poorly at TBS.
_________________________________________________
God Dammit, you've got to be kind!
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. "God Bless You Mr. Rosewater:"
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Julie there have been a lot of attacks on this thread about ANY boarding school (aimed at Karen). The consensus here is to lump sending a kid to boarding school right in with the whole bad parenting thing. There is not a recognition here of the excellent college prep boarding schools. BUT-there aren't many kids with the types of issues and backgrounds being discussed here who would be admitted to a regular boarding school (of any merit). These schools do not like to take kids who have been expelled from other schools or who have drug/alcohol issues.
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Julie- you sure don't know much about education. And you sure are a mean little bitch.
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I attended both a TBS and a traditional, single gender, college prep school. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. There were rules at both. Obviously, the TBS rules were tighter where as the prep school rules were more expected. At the same time, they were very similiar.
At the prep-school, we were required to wear uniforms. Was this abuse? We were not allowed to wear what we wanted. Our days were scheduled for us. We were required to attend breakfast EVERY morning. Wednesday nights we had formal dinner with our advisors.We had to attend church or temple atleast once per month. The "child pranks" could easily compare to some of the horror stories told from a TBS. There was even a teacher at this prep-school that was arrested for molesting students.
Did I mention that many of these schools cost more than a 4 year college education at a state school?
Now, why would no one be interested in closing down all of the "TRADITIONAL" boarding schools in this country? Is it because kids are not sent there against their will?? WRONG. I am sure there will be many replies explaining there are no mind games, no emotional abuse, no physical abuse. I would argue that there are mind games.... uniforms, school songs and mottos memorized, strict curfews, traditions that date back a century...
Having been a student at both types of schools, my conclusion is that there are some good schools and some bad schools... .traditional and alternative schools.
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I was going to bother replying with research and everything, but the long post by the anonymous in the middle of this page royally made my point for me. Thank you, Anonymous. Luke and I are going to go play now.
Which is something that TBSlaves can't do...
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Lookie, The Who successfully idiot-jacked another thread. :wave: :lol:
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more and more parents will be looking to place their kids in a safer environment and fornits is becoming part of their search and education.
Yeah, that's right. Take your kid from a place where these violent, drug-using, mentally ill kids represent a fraction of a percent of the population and put them in a warehouse where nearly every kid is disturbed. Sure, THAT will make them safer. How dumb can you be?
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On 2006-04-20 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-02-01 02:09:00, Carlbrook Graduate wrote:
"Ha. You don't think I went to Carlbrook? Ask me anything you wish kind sir. Integritas, Amicitia, Animus, Teneo, Veneratio? Who's your hero? What about your truth? Or how about your superhero? No, I know, what's your lie? What about your nightmare? How about you go do some bioenergetics? Go listen to your fucking Mike and the Mechanics, or do you not remember the song it's not easy? I don't know who you are and I honestly don't care. I speak from my experiences and I don't speak for anybody but myself. I say what I saw with my eyes during my incarceration. Yes, I said incarceration. What else do you call a place that the staff is able to withhold and monitor all your communications with family and friends? Where you are monitored by security at night and every window and door has an alarm? Don't try to discredit me because you can't believe the truth."
This kid seems to have had an awful experience at Carlbrook. What he describes is a "typical" program, not something "new" and "better."
Look at their staff. Nearly all of the top dogs are from abusive, shut-down programs. Some were at multiple closed-for-abuse programs. Some don't tell the truth on their bios and omit the abusive programs they ran.
"Meet our Director, Michael Recycle." Same names, same game, ain't nothin' changed..."
same abusive staff, same program, new price, new location. red flags all over the place.
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On 2006-04-20 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Meet our Director, Michael Recycle."
:tup: I like that.
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On 2006-04-23 19:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-04-20 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Meet our Director, Michael Recycle."
:tup: I like that."
I liked that one too. Thought it might be fun to keep a list of program terms/sayings advocates have coined over the years. There have been some good ones.
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there is obviously only one opinion here, and that is these things are bad.
personally, my name is anonymous, and i am glad to meet all of you. you seem like really delightful individuals who are extremely responsible contributors to society and can say it like it is. i mean really, say it like it is. you guys are good at that. i mean, i admit that i am timid and cannot bash people i dont know because ive had some issues with it in the past. i was a transvestite for a few months, and i have been bashed hard. really hard. so i like you guys because you give me hope that maybe one day i can bash as hard as you, and then i will feel worth something. a person, i would feel like. im tired of being a cyborg, i want some action, and i think this forum is the place to be for it. thanks for your time and keep me posted. im sure you will.
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good try, humor can be elusive to some.
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so can pedophiles, love
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way to elevate the conversation, karen.
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Why are there no new postings - nothing since late April - did the school step in and stop the faculty from telling the truth
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I think it's more just relentless trolling. The Carlbrook mom troll derails any possible conversation about the facility.
Still, the most recent posting from an actual graduate is the one below and it pretty much sums up what we've all been saying: same names, same program, different spin.
On 2006-02-01 02:09:00, Carlbrook Graduate wrote:
"Ha. You don't think I went to Carlbrook? Ask me anything you wish kind sir. Integritas, Amicitia, Animus, Teneo, Veneratio? Who's your hero? What about your truth? Or how about your superhero? No, I know, what's your lie? What about your nightmare? How about you go do some bioenergetics? Go listen to your fucking Mike and the Mechanics, or do you not remember the song it's not easy? I don't know who you are and I honestly don't care. I speak from my experiences and I don't speak for anybody but myself. I say what I saw with my eyes during my incarceration. Yes, I said incarceration. What else do you call a place that the staff is able to withhold and monitor all your communications with family and friends? Where you are monitored by security at night and every window and door has an alarm? Don't try to discredit me because you can't believe the truth."
Nobody has refuted any of the information in this post.
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Dear Mr. Woodbury,
I know you are probably very busy, but I just wanted to take the time to tell you how thankful I am for the type of work you do- it saved my life. My name is Rxxxxxx and I am from Phoenix, Arizona. Like many other teenagers that you work with, I was not on a good path, confused, and out of control. My parents started seeing Miriam Bodin in Northern California, and I was sent to the Second Nature Wilderness Program in Utah. After working with Dr. Matt Hoig there, I went to the Carlbrook School in Southern Virginia and graduated this past May 2005. As I said earlier, the eighteen months I spent there saved my life. I just want to say that Carlbrook is a very special place to me, and I hope it keeps running for a long time- I read on your website that Cedu closed down, and I hope that that never will happen to Carlbrook. While I was at Carlbrook I got to work with so many awesome adults such as Tim Brace, Jonathan Gurney, Matthew Lovell, Robert Somers, and so many awesome other people. I just wanted to write you a note because when I visited your website, I can see that you care about so many kids, and I respect what you do a lot. Thank you for your time, and thank you for caring about us teenagers so much.
Sincerely,
Rxxxxxxxxx
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That is a nice troll. You're going to get some major responses with that.
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On 2006-05-17 14:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think it's more just relentless trolling. The Carlbrook mom troll derails any possible conversation about the facility.
Still, the most recent posting from an actual graduate is the one below and it pretty much sums up what we've all been saying: same names, same program, different spin.
On 2006-02-01 02:09:00, Carlbrook Graduate wrote:
"Ha. You don't think I went to Carlbrook? Ask me anything you wish kind sir. Integritas, Amicitia, Animus, Teneo, Veneratio? Who's your hero? What about your truth? Or how about your superhero? No, I know, what's your lie? What about your nightmare? How about you go do some bioenergetics? Go listen to your fucking Mike and the Mechanics, or do you not remember the song it's not easy? I don't know who you are and I honestly don't care. I speak from my experiences and I don't speak for anybody but myself. I say what I saw with my eyes during my incarceration. Yes, I said incarceration. What else do you call a place that the staff is able to withhold and monitor all your communications with family and friends? Where you are monitored by security at night and every window and door has an alarm? Don't try to discredit me because you can't believe the truth."
Nobody has refuted any of the information in this post."
That didnt take long
Dear Mr. Woodbury,
I know you are probably very busy, but I just wanted to take the time to tell you how thankful I am for the type of work you do- it saved my life. My name is Rxxxxxx and I am from Phoenix, Arizona. Like many other teenagers that you work with, I was not on a good path, confused, and out of control. My parents started seeing Miriam Bodin in Northern California, and I was sent to the Second Nature Wilderness Program in Utah. After working with Dr. Matt Hoig there, I went to the Carlbrook School in Southern Virginia and graduated this past May 2005. As I said earlier, the eighteen months I spent there saved my life. I just want to say that Carlbrook is a very special place to me, and I hope it keeps running for a long time- I read on your website that Cedu closed down, and I hope that that never will happen to Carlbrook. While I was at Carlbrook I got to work with so many awesome adults such as Tim Brace, Jonathan Gurney, Matthew Lovell, Robert Somers, and so many awesome other people. I just wanted to write you a note because when I visited your website, I can see that you care about so many kids, and I respect what you do a lot. Thank you for your time, and thank you for caring about us teenagers so much.
Sincerely,
Rxxxxxxxxx
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On 2006-05-17 11:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why are there no new postings - nothing since late April - did the school step in and stop the faculty from telling the truth"
This is absolute trolling.
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People that are happy with a program don't normally frquent a survivor's site.
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On 2006-05-17 18:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"People that are happy with a program don't normally frquent a survivor's site. "
I don't agree with this statement at all. We have a Carlbrook mom who absolutely loves Carlbrook, yet she posts hundreds of messages here slamming anyone who had a different experience or view.
She not only slams everyone who doesn't agree about Carlbrook, she relentless trolls other threads and has multiple logins that she uses to "personally troll" people who disagree (like me).
So, the theory that "happy programmies" don't troll/post is absolutely untrue. They are some of the most relentless and viscious posters, like the Carlbrook mom troll.
For these people the Machiavellian edict that "the end justifies the means" holds true in a couple of ways:
1. They don't really care about what goes on behind closed doors at the program so long as their kids stops getting smart with them/conforms.
2. They have no compunction about trying to personally destroy posters with differing opinions, even going so far as soliciting information about them for the express purpose of affecting their career or family life.
"Happy programmies" are some of the worst of the worst actors, as evidenced by their behavior here and in their home lives.
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I see we got bored with ASR and now we're on to bashing another school that nobody has any first hand knowledge of. Somehow I sort of doubt the banter will change.
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On 2006-05-17 18:52:00, brokenlegNO wrote:
"I see we got bored with ASR and now we're on to bashing another school that nobody has any first hand knowledge of. Somehow I sort of doubt the banter will change. "
Hey, troll, read the thread. There are several personal accounts. Just because you're too lazy to read doesn't mean the information isn't there.
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Dear Mr. Woodbury,
I too would like to thank you very much. My parents read your glowing report about Paradise Cove and decided that I too, could benefit. And I did.
I am so grateful that I have actually named a body part after you. The largest of my many boils I got at Paradise Cove is now the Lon Woodbury boil.
Ever since I was snatched up by an escort service I have had fantasies of bondage, and being kidsnapped. Thanks to you I now have a much more diverse sex life.
Yes when I was in iso the Samoan guards fed me with their feet, but don't worry, I do not blame you for this. In fact it is pretty neat. Whenever we go to a nice restaurant I whip off my sandels, grab the shirmp cotail with my toes, and shove them in the mouth of my wife. It does seem to draw a bit of commotion but the manager is very happy because of all the money he saves on utensils, me not having to use any.
Sittin in them stalls for a couple of month gave me arthritis but thanks to you Uncle Lon, even that turned really, really good, because now I can park anywhere I want--with my fabulous handicapped sticker. Who says theres no advatage to being crippled.
Thanks to you and Paradise Cove, I know everything about how to discipline my own children. Like the time a staff member threw that little kid Stephens. dog over a cliff.
We too have had many dogs. I buy the puppy. Wait for my kid to get really attached to it. And then when he's bad I take the puppy and throw out of the apartment window. Sometimes it splatters on a passing car. Yea, they stop and get out. And theyre so ticked off. But when I explain it's behavior modification for my child, they are so much more understanding.
Sometimes I DON'T EVEN HAVE TO DROP the little creature. I just do a little dangeling. Saves on the expense of replacing it.
It works every time. The little wuss gets all teary eyed and begging--and very compliant. Uncle Lon, I call you that because I feel very close to you. You saved my life and the life of my children and their children, and many children not even born yet. Gratefully,
Carl Brooks.
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On 2006-05-17 19:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-05-17 18:52:00, brokenlegNO wrote:
"I see we got bored with ASR and now we're on to bashing another school that nobody has any first hand knowledge of. Somehow I sort of doubt the banter will change. "
Hey, troll, read the thread. There are several personal accounts. Just because you're too lazy to read doesn't mean the information isn't there."
The thread had died until some bored anti-program troll started stirring the pot.
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My mom is the "Carlbrook Troll Mom" from pennsylvania. I'm ashamed to admit it, but it's true. She's angry, she drinks all the time and yells at us kids all the time. She sent me away to Carlbrook because I didn't "keep my room clean". She hates me and my dad too. All she does is drink all day and write on the internet posing as other people who she calls "sinners" like some lady named Julie. I told her I was being abused at Carlbrook, but she told me I was a liar and just amnipulating her to get out. I can't win. I'm stuck with my mom and the program until I'm 18. I wish I could just get away from her.
Carlbrook Troll's Kid
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Well, finally, Carlbrook listened to my advice and gave the kids internet access. See how much I have accomplished? Now, you stupid little fuck-up. stop impersonating other people and grow up.
Julie
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Mom, please stop. You're an embarrassment to our family. I wish you would just go to rehab and stop drinking so much. I talk about it in group every day. You should get sober and stop spending all your time impersonating other people and try to be a good mom. I have been having a "relationship" with my advisor, so he lets me use the internet, as long as there's "something in it" for him. He thinks I should move in with him after the program because you drink too much and yell allthe time. He says that's unhealthy.
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Aren't you just hilarious!!
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:wave:
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The people posting on this thread do not know how messed up this woman is. I was a former 'friend' of hers at another popular message board, and she confided secrets to me that were disturbing and vicious. Sending the kids away was a blessing to them, anything was better than her.
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Can you post some of the messages? What was her handle at the other board? Very interesting. Here she posts anon or poses as Julie or DJ, two of the people she's not smart enough to engage, so she acts like a baby instead.
A while back, when she was trolling as DJ I put up a link with some spyware attached and she clicked on it. Now I can follow everywhere she goes on the internet and expose her every time she posts anon. It's great. She was so angry and flustered that she didn't notice she downloaded a trojan :sad:
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"A while back, when she was trolling as DJ I put up a link with some spyware attached and she clicked on it. Now I can follow everywhere she goes on the internet and expose her every time she posts anon. It's great. She was so angry and flustered that she didn't notice she downloaded a trojan"
Yeah, sure you did.
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On 2006-05-23 14:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Can you post some of the messages? What was her handle at the other board? Very interesting. Here she posts anon or poses as Julie or DJ, two of the people she's not smart enough to engage, so she acts like a baby instead.
A while back, when she was trolling as DJ I put up a link with some spyware attached and she clicked on it. Now I can follow everywhere she goes on the internet and expose her every time she posts anon. It's great. She was so angry and flustered that she didn't notice she downloaded a trojan :sad: "
So, Julie and DJ are the same person? That makes alot of sense now, looking back. I always thought DJ was a guy, though, strange. Fooled me!
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On 2006-05-23 14:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
""A while back, when she was trolling as DJ I put up a link with some spyware attached and she clicked on it. Now I can follow everywhere she goes on the internet and expose her every time she posts anon. It's great. She was so angry and flustered that she didn't notice she downloaded a trojan"
Yeah, sure you did."
How do you think I know exactly where you live? Hmmm? How do I know every time you post, even when you try to hide? Hmmm? How do you think I know the details of your pathetic little trolling life where you spend upwards of EIGHT HOURS a day checking and trolling Fornits?
Please. You're transparent and too stupid to know it.
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And where is it you think I live?
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On 2006-05-23 14:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-05-23 14:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Can you post some of the messages? What was her handle at the other board? Very interesting. Here she posts anon or poses as Julie or DJ, two of the people she's not smart enough to engage, so she acts like a baby instead.
A while back, when she was trolling as DJ I put up a link with some spyware attached and she clicked on it. Now I can follow everywhere she goes on the internet and expose her every time she posts anon. It's great. She was so angry and flustered that she didn't notice she downloaded a trojan :wink: ) who pretends to be both of them.
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On 2006-05-23 14:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And where is it you think I live?"
don't get upset. you should know that the internet isn't anonymous. just cause you post with a bag on your head doesn't mean anything.
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If you are the expert on this, where do I live?
I know DJ, Deborah and Ginger can check IP addresses, but unless you are one of them (which is entirely possible considering all the IDs YOU use), you have no idea who anyone is.
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On 2006-05-23 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you are the expert on this, where do I live?
I know DJ, Deborah and Ginger can check IP addresses, but unless you are one of them (which is entirely possible considering all the IDs YOU use), you have no idea who anyone is."
don't cry. you're mad because you have no control over the situation. you're a control freak and it makes you mad that i know you and you have no idea about me. i can understand the feeling of weakness. no doubt you've felt that many times and lashed out because of it like you do on here. you feel weak and you get angry. too bad.
hey, do you know how to keep an idiot carlbrook troll-mom in suspense?
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Actually, I couldn't care less about you or what you do or do not know about me. I just find it amusing that you think you are showing off on this pathetic forum. I am in no suspense, I assure you.
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I notice the Carlbrook Troll Mom did not refute the fact she spends 8 hours a day trolling fornits.
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On 2006-05-23 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you are the expert on this, where do I live?
I know DJ, Deborah and Ginger can check IP addresses, but unless you are one of them (which is entirely possible considering all the IDs YOU use), you have no idea who anyone is."
Too bad Ginger doesn't have a program so that when someone says "I know", it would read "I think I know"?
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On 2006-05-23 14:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-05-23 14:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
""A while back, when she was trolling as DJ I put up a link with some spyware attached and she clicked on it. Now I can follow everywhere she goes on the internet and expose her every time she posts anon. It's great. She was so angry and flustered that she didn't notice she downloaded a trojan"
Yeah, sure you did."
How do you think I know exactly where you live? Hmmm? How do I know every time you post, even when you try to hide? Hmmm? How do you think I know the details of your pathetic little trolling life where you spend upwards of EIGHT HOURS a day checking and trolling Fornits?
Please. You're transparent and too stupid to know it."
So, how much time do you spend here trying to catch the troll? :em:
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Going on a troll hunt, going on a troll hunt, ooo lookie, oooo lookie, it's a troll!
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Look in the mirror- you found your troll. I notice you seem to like that bag on your head.
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Karen, RandomWalk, Julie, Whoever you want to be today,
You wrote:
"Katfish and Nihilanthic are anti-program zealots who wandered over to this forum to convince everyone that all programs are bad and should be strictly regulated. Katfish is a little more subtle than Nihilanthic."
http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ ... p=1#000002 (http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001222;p=1#000002)
Are you opposed to a "strictly regulated" industry? Please eloborate.
Would strict regulations have deminished your son's experience? Might stricter regulations save a few more lives? Prevent a few more abuses? While Carlbrook may lie on the more subtle end of the abuse spectrum, the entire industry and those who find themselves incarcerated, could only benefit.
Feel free to sign with any of your aliases.
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Oh, Karen. For shame. Busted out again and again posing as others and using phony logins.
For an "attorney" (not sure if I buy that) you aren't very smart.
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Is the reason you think everybody who pushes your buttons is KareninDallas? Do you really want to believe there is only one person who wants to challenge you or give you back some of your own treatment? I am NOT this Karen person, and many of the other posts are not me, either. Good try, but no one is buying it.
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On 2006-05-24 06:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is the reason you think everybody who pushes your buttons is KareninDallas? Do you really want to believe there is only one person who wants to challenge you or give you back some of your own treatment? I am NOT this Karen person, and many of the other posts are not me, either. Good try, but no one is buying it."
What are you talking about? Who cares who "buys" what? The fact is that these posters (RandomWalk, Karen, JulietheGreat) are all the same person, as confirmed by the moderator. Nobody "buys" anything you anon trolls say because you're so full of it. I tend to trust the moderator who can view the IP of the sender rather than lying bagheads.
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Perhaps you'd like to answer the questions. What's your position on stricter regulations?
Might stricter regulations save a few more lives? Prevent a few more abuses?
I mean, isn't that what the industry is all about-saving lives and preventing abuse (self)? Not okay to abuse one's self, but okay to be abused by other's for abusing yourself. Brilliant!!
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-05-24 07:21 ]
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On 2006-05-23 15:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-05-23 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you are the expert on this, where do I live?
I know DJ, Deborah and Ginger can check IP addresses, but unless you are one of them (which is entirely possible considering all the IDs YOU use), you have no idea who anyone is."
don't cry. you're mad because you have no control over the situation. you're a control freak and it makes you mad that i know you and you have no idea about me. i can understand the feeling of weakness. no doubt you've felt that many times and lashed out because of it like you do on here. you feel weak and you get angry. too bad.
hey, do you know how to keep an idiot carlbrook troll-mom in suspense?"
Boy, this hit it right on the head. Look at her post from ST regarding control issues:
RandomWalk
Member
Member # 3697
posted March 25, 2006 08:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It varies by program. If it really isn't working, they will usually shift things around. Also, this industry has a lot of flux- therapists and support staff tend to come and go. This is unfortunate.
I will be interested to hear why TJ walked off. This happened several times at my son's TBS. He didn't go, but helped plan the escape for two other kids. They weren't found for 4 days. It was frightening. One word of advice- do not worry now about graduating on time. Take it one step at a time. So much can change. My son wound up leaving before he finished his program. Other kids wound up with delayed graduations, some got out sooner than planned. Don't get ahead of yourself. I know that is hard for people like us who like to KNOW and be in CONTROL! This is a frustrating process.
You said a mouthful, Karen/Carlbrook Troll Mom/HStreet/KarenInDallas/JulietheGreat/Dysfunktionjunksion. Or should we just call you "Cybil"? Man, you're one FUCKED UP individual.
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On 2006-05-24 06:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-05-24 06:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is the reason you think everybody who pushes your buttons is KareninDallas? Do you really want to believe there is only one person who wants to challenge you or give you back some of your own treatment? I am NOT this Karen person, and many of the other posts are not me, either. Good try, but no one is buying it."
What are you talking about? Who cares who "buys" what? The fact is that these posters (RandomWalk, Karen, JulietheGreat) are all the same person, as confirmed by the moderator. Nobody "buys" anything you anon trolls say because you're so full of it. I tend to trust the moderator who can view the IP of the sender rather than lying bagheads."
For clarification, I'm not the moderator and don't have access to your IP. Carry on.
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Wow, that Carlbrook troll is one sick lady! I count my blessings I wasn't born into that wretched womb!
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Take a look at yourselves. What kind of people are you? Keep digging that hole. Ridiculous posts from little kids. Go for it!
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On 2006-05-26 16:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Take a look at yourselves."
I'm hot!
What kind of people are you?
We is good people!
Keep digging that hole.
We will!
Ridiculous posts from little kids.
LOL! Yes a bunch of five year olds.
Go for it!"
I got it all already.
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A little off-topic, but today is the 3rd anniversary of the puppy our son bought by stealing our checks, finding a breeder and writing a check! Two weeks and a serious car accident later, he was on his way to wilderness. The dog is the joy of my life, and possibly the most wonderful thing my son has done for me (even though it wasn't supposed to be for ME-we know how THAT goes...), but at the time it was quite a shock. That darling little puppy is now a 125 pound Golden Retriever.
My friends say that the dog is my son reincarnated as a dog!
http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ ... p=1#000005 (http://www.strugglingteens.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001231;p=1#000005)
What a horrible excuse for a parent, replacing her son when times get tough for a puppy. I'd laugh if it weren't so fucking pathetic.
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Oh yeah the person who posted this is our little Carlbrook troll here. :lol:
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Look at yourselves. Take a good long hard look.
Are you proud of yourself --- are you REALLY?
If your parents knew what you were doing here --- would they be proud of you? I sincerely think they would NOT be.
You are a bunch of punk kids! Did your kindergarten class install computers?
You might ask why I come here if I hate you all so much. Why should I respond to a bunch of little kids on a meaningless internet forum. I AM HERE TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. Stop posting your LIES and you might get lucky and not get sued. I've been working on a HUGE lawsuit which I am ready to drop soon. Everyone who ever said ANYTHING against me will be getting a letter soon.
You think you forniscators are all so clever. Get ready for a dose of REALITY, from a lawyer!
You might think you forniscators are cute by following me around the internet putting my posts here. It's not funny, stop or be sued, you have been warned.
For now I will take the words you claim indict me and own up to them and make them my signature. Like the blacks took the word nigger and made it their own. I will take these and make them my own.
You forniscators are no match for my intellectual wit and logical abilities.
Karen
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I have no puppy. I didn't make that post. I am not Karen. Get over it. Fuckheads.
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You should get a puppy, I replaced my son with one!
Of course you are not Karen, I am.
"Fuckheads?" This is the language of a sewer-dwelling, ankle-biting, forniscator incapable of useful discourse. Typical. Grow a brain moron.
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Grow up, loser. You are an embarrassment.
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I am older than you -- kid -- my birthday is September 12, 1952.
Your parents must have taken you out of your program too early, learn some manners before you address me again.
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On 2006-05-26 17:35:00, KarenInDallas wrote:
"Look at yourselves. Take a good long hard look.
Are you proud of yourself --- are you REALLY?
If your parents knew what you were doing here --- would they be proud of you? I sincerely think they would NOT be.
You are a bunch of punk kids! Did your kindergarten class install computers?
You might ask why I come here if I hate you all so much. Why should I respond to a bunch of little kids on a meaningless internet forum. I AM HERE TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. Stop posting your LIES and you might get lucky and not get sued. I've been working on a HUGE lawsuit which I am ready to drop soon. Everyone who ever said ANYTHING against me will be getting a letter soon.
You think you forniscators are all so clever. Get ready for a dose of REALITY, from a lawyer!
You might think you forniscators are cute by following me around the internet putting my posts here. It's not funny, stop or be sued, you have been warned.
For now I will take the words you claim indict me and own up to them and make them my signature. Like the blacks took the word nigger and made it their own. I will take these and make them my own.
You forniscators are no match for my intellectual wit and logical abilities.
Karen
"
I'm ALL SHAAAAAAKY. If you were actually a lawyer you would realize that frivolous lawsuits are punishable by sanctions as well as exposure to legal fees as well as crossclaims. If you were actually an attorney you would realize the enormous cost of legal proceedings, the burden of proof necessary for liable actions, and the complexity of venue issues. The fact that you think that you could prevail is utterly hilarious.
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Oh, damn, I've collected my own personal troll.
Lord, but didn't I do a good job of pissing you off. :rofl:
Too funny.
Pissing people off isn't my reason for being here, but it's a side effect that you can tell just really breaks my heart.
My touchstone for whether I feel sorry for a parent who got snookered is whether the parent mostly feels sorry they (however inadvertently) did that to their kid, or feels sorry for herself.
Pissed off? Wah.
Julie[ This Message was edited by: Julie Cochrane on 2006-05-26 23:41 ]
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duplicate post, sorry[ This Message was edited by: Julie Cochrane on 2006-05-26 23:40 ]
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What happened to this forum? I used to come here to actually talk to people and give them my personal experiences with this school as well having a place to maybe get something done. Everyone has gotten carried away with the whole Karen bullshit and you can't find anything of value without sifting through pages of incoherent posts rambling on about this parent named Karen. As someone who takes 2 seconds to actually think about the situation, I can't believe that people are still carrying on with this after 4-5 months. Let's get back on track and actually give people who want to know about Carlbrook a chance to find out. The truth from people who've been there, people who both love and hate it. If not, maybe someone should start a moderated forum somewhere else.
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CarlbrookGrad- this is not a forum for any intelligent discussion. This is a forum for people who know absolutely nothing about Carlbrook to bash it and all other therpeutic schools and prove how immature they are. Whenever they get backed in a corner and can't respond to a positive statement about a program, they bring out the KareninDallas fake logins and start acting like the morons they are.
You should start a MySpace group for Carlbrook or a Yahoo forum. This is where you will find only shit, as you pointed out.
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If not, maybe someone should start a moderated forum somewhere else.
Won't matter, they will still come here. You don't think this dipshit anon above me carlbrook troll mom doesn't have her own moderated forum to go on? LOL
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Like anyone comes here to begin with...
Maybe a handful of psycho anti-program posters and an occasional person with some actual knowledge and experience.
Most of the discussion consists of you wack jobs talking to yourselves.
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On 2006-05-27 11:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Like anyone comes here to begin with..."
You did... :lol:
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Yeah- like I said. I'm the occasional person with actual knowledge and experience.
Once you come, it's like watching a bad car accident. It's so awful that it is hard to tear yourself away. The level of this forum is so tragically bad that one remains just to marvel at the sub-human level of the regulars on the forum. Most people have been fortunate enough to not have experienced the likes of the stupidity, anger and hatred on this forum and when one stumbles upon it the contrast to reality is something to appreciate.
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On 2006-05-27 11:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah- like I said. I'm the occasional person with actual knowledge and experience.
Once you come, it's like watching a bad car accident. It's so awful that it is hard to tear yourself away. The level of this forum is so tragically bad that one remains just to marvel at the sub-human level of the regulars on the forum. Most people have been fortunate enough to not have experienced the likes of the stupidity, anger and hatred on this forum and when one stumbles upon it the contrast to reality is something to appreciate."
Bullshit, you love it. Gives you a venue to judge others and express your perceived superiority. Got anything meaningful to contribute yourself, or just using everyone's attention for your venting pleasure?
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Deborah- speaking of people who don't know anything about it. Go back and play on your HLA forum. I have read your posts. You are probably the most screwed up person on this board. All you do is regurgitate a bunch of crap you gather out of some obscure press. I doubt you even understand what you read. You are so far removed from having any understanding of this industry that anything you say is a joke.
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On 2006-05-27 11:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The level of this forum is so tragically bad that one remains just to marvel"
You are a regular around here. You make me laugh, and I still don't know whether you are real or just for humor.
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On 2006-05-27 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah- speaking of people who don't know anything about it. Go back and play on your HLA forum. I have read your posts. You are probably the most screwed up person on this board. All you do is regurgitate a bunch of crap you gather out of some obscure press. I doubt you even understand what you read. You are so far removed from having any understanding of this industry that anything you say is a joke. "
Like I said, Bullshit, you love it. Gives you a venue to judge others and express your perceived superiority. Got anything meaningful to contribute yourself, or just using everyone's attention for your venting pleasure?
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My superiority is quite real. But, that isn't saying much on this site. I do happen to know quite a bit about this school, though, which is not something you can claim.
It's not a matter of seeking attention- it's a matter of correcting the misrepresentations you continue to make.
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On 2006-05-27 13:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My superiority is quite real. But, that isn't saying much on this site. I do happen to know quite a bit about this school, though, which is not something you can claim.
It's not a matter of seeking attention- it's a matter of correcting the misrepresentations you continue to make."
I assume you're referring to Carlbrook, since you've admitting knowing nothing about HLA.
Exercise your superiority and point out the misrepresentations "I" made about Carlbrook.
Make it worthwhile for the reader, otherwise, Yeh, you are dominating everyone's attention with your hysterical anonymous accusations and venting.
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On 2006-05-27 14:16:00, Deborah wrote:
Exercise your superiority and point out the misrepresentations "I" made about Carlbrook.
I'd like to see you back that claim up too.
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On 2006-05-27 05:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"CarlbrookGrad- this is not a forum for any intelligent discussion. This is a forum for people who know absolutely nothing about Carlbrook to bash it and all other therpeutic schools and prove how immature they are. Whenever they get backed in a corner and can't respond to a positive statement about a program, they bring out the KareninDallas fake logins and start acting like the morons they are.
You should start a MySpace group for Carlbrook or a Yahoo forum. This is where you will find only shit, as you pointed out. "
There is a fair amount of "shit" here for sure. Take for instance, Big D,little j and his side-kick "JulietheGreat". Posers extraordinaire.
You and your friend are just so above the others, just exceedingly more 'mature' than the "bashers", "morons" and imposters. You'd never consider doing such a thing, right?
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Tough to have it thrown right back at ya, isn't it Deborah?
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On 2006-05-28 05:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Tough to have it thrown right back at ya, isn't it Deborah? "
So I guess it's a no to answering the question?
Exercise your superiority and point out the misrepresentations "I" made about Carlbrook
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Sweet Jesus, you are pathetic.
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I'm pathetic for asking you to back up the claim that Deb has misrepresented information? Uh....OK. :roll:
I'll try again. What statements has Deb made that you find erroneous? It's really not that difficult of a question. Think you can handle it without resorting to the ad hominems?
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Tough? Sorry, posing's not my style.
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On 2006-05-27 05:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"CarlbrookGrad- this is not a forum for any intelligent discussion. This is a forum for people who know absolutely nothing about Carlbrook to bash it and all other therpeutic schools and prove how immature they are. Whenever they get backed in a corner and can't respond to a positive statement about a program, they bring out the KareninDallas fake logins and start acting like the morons they are.
You should start a MySpace group for Carlbrook or a Yahoo forum. This is where you will find only shit, as you pointed out. "
look who's talking. this woman is an IDIOT who follows posters to personally bash then and has NEVER added anything to the conversation and seems to know NOTHING about carlbrook at all. she's just a programmie that loves ALL programs and BASHES VICTIMS for her own enjoyment.
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after how many months can the kids attending carlbrook come home and visit?
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WHY WONT THIS THREAD DIE?
I know, lets make fornits a clan on a MMO or something. That way if someone says shit I dont like or wont drop a topic I can kill them :em:
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Quake 1 Custom TF anyone?
You'll [love my Shambler's (yes, my Shambler, there is summoning in that game) name.. :smile:
Or I'll just start tossing dets.
FIRE IN THE HOLE!
LonWoodbury reached orbit via Slicer's detpack
LonWoodbury's sentrygun was destroyed by Slicer
LonWoodbury's tesla sentry was destroyed by Slicer
TheWho reached orbit via Slicer's detpack
TheWho's Scrag, wild fig, was killed by Slicer
TheWho's Scrag, brokenlegNO, was killed by Slicer
RobertLitchfield reached orbit via Slicer's detpack
Slicer: W00t a 7-fer :smile:
LonWoodbury: OMG HAX I'M CALLING YOUR ISP TO REVOKE YOUR INTERNET PRIVILEGES
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i was one of the first students at carlbrook and graduated in 2003. my AOL sn is SCsideburn. If anyone has questions ask.
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http://www.legacy.com/ChicagoTribune/Gu ... D=18459814 (http://www.legacy.com/ChicagoTribune/GuestBook.asp?Page=GuestBook&PersonID=18459814)
July 17, 2006
May God be with you during this time of unspeakable loss.
Karen and Ken (Carlbrook parents)
Karen Austin (Dallas, TX )
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Burns, Joe
Joe Burns, 19, of Hopkinsville, KY, formerly of Northbrook, beloved son of Dan and Claudia Fox Burns; loving brother of Paige (Nick) Sparacino and Hadley Burns; loving grandson of Marion (Bob) Atwood and the late Joe Fox, the late Thomas (Katherine) Burns and the late Laurie Burns; loving nephew, great friend to many. Visitation Monday, 3 to 7 p.m., at N.H. Scott & Hanekamp Funeral Home, 1240 Waukegan Rd. (2 blks. S. of Lake Ave. on West Side), Glenview. Friends and family will meet for Funeral Mass Tuesday, 10 a.m., at St. Norbert Church, 1809 Walters Ave., Northbrook. Interment private. In lieu of flowers, memorials may be made in Joe's name to the Carlbrook School, 3046 Carlbrook Rd., South Boston, VA 24593. Funeral info 847-998-1020.
Published in the Chicago Tribune from 7/16/2006 - 7/17/2006.
Notice ? Guest Book ? Flowers
Gift Shop ? Charities
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wow, that's sick. the place that failed him miserably - CARLBROOK - is going to reap financial rewards from his death.
that is FUCKED UP!
way to go, people. donate cash to a facility that claims to treat kids' problems, but actually does nothing to treat them, then they off themselves. yeah, that makes sense. :roll:
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It seems that nobody but you is blaming Carlbrook. How sick are you anyway? In trying to defile Karen, you post an obituary...a tragic one at that. You didn't know that kid and you should be ashamed of yourself. Bad karma, dude. You'll get what you deserve sooner rather than later.
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It seems that nobody but you is blaming Carlbrook. How sick are you anyway? In trying to defile Karen, you post an obituary...a tragic one at that. You didn't know that kid and you should be ashamed of yourself. Bad karma, dude. You'll get what you deserve sooner rather than later.
karen, you have your own thread. post there. haven't you realized that the only - ONLY - person who sticks up for you is YOU?
the above post is quite clearly made to show that this facility that failed to help this child is now reaping financial rewards for their utter failure and his suicide. it's wrong.
so, shut your maw, karen. nobody asked you. and, btw, you've defiled (soiled) YOURSELF on this site for over two years now. get over it. move on.
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It seems that nobody but you is blaming Carlbrook. How sick are you anyway? In trying to defile Karen, you post an obituary...a tragic one at that. You didn't know that kid and you should be ashamed of yourself. Bad karma, dude. You'll get what you deserve sooner rather than later.
That sounds like a threat, expect litigation via messenger ASAP from my attorney Karen "Sue" Austin. :x
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i'd love to see it. i'd love to see karen sink thousands and thousands of dollars into fruitless litigation. it would make my day in fact.
is karen really that dumb that she thinks she can sue other people for re-posting what she already posted? you gotta be brain-dead, karen.
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Getting what one deserves doesn't always come in the form of litigation. You are insensitive, bad, lazy people and, when you then delight in the death of a child- no matter where you believe the fault lies- you will, one day, reap what you sow. Get a job.
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And, don't get me wrong. I don't find Karen faultless. She's posted way too much about herself, her own family and now Joe Burns. Bad, bad karma.
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You are insensitive, bad, lazy people
You're bad people. What are ya, two years old?
and, when you then delight in the death of a child-
Show me one instance, ONE where any of us "delighted" in this kid's death.
Get a job.
Why? Don't need one. I've been successful enough to not have to work anymore. Get back to the drive thru window, ya got customers. ::bwahaha2::
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How about you Karen, you got a job?
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You are insensitive, bad, lazy people
You're bad people. What are ya, two years old?
and, when you then delight in the death of a child-
Show me one instance, ONE where any of us "delighted" in this kid's death.
Get a job.
Why? Don't need one. I've been successful enough to not have to work anymore. Get back to the drive thru window, ya got customers. ::bwahaha2::
Oh, yeah, I believe you. When I make enough money not to have a job I will spend my days on Fornits. Loser.
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Shouldn't you be out training for a marathon, Karen? Get your hubby to predict who will win for me, I got a lot of money riding on this years Boston 5k, okay? :wink:
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Asswipe- it wasn't Karen who posted anything about Joe Burns. That would be you insensitive little creeps. Gee-lets see. Someone took an entry out of a private funeral home guestbook and put it on fornits. That's real kind, isn't it? I'm sure the Burns family would really appreciate that. Oh right- it's on the internet so it's fair game for you little creeps to use it to whatever sick purpose you can dream up. No, I'm not karen. Have your IT whizzes check the IP address if you want. I can assure you that Karen and most other people with any brains are far from this site, which is exactly where I'm heading. Hope your head comes out of your ass soon.
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See ya later Karen, don't let the door hit you on the way out! :wave:
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wow, that's sick. the place that failed him miserably - CARLBROOK - is going to reap financial rewards from his death.
that is FUCKED UP!
way to go, people. donate cash to a facility that claims to treat kids' problems, but actually does nothing to treat them, then they off themselves. yeah, that makes sense. :roll:
that is very strange... but perfectly normal in their weird world I guess. :o its like they are cults!
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Oh, yeah, I believe you. When I make enough money not to have a job I will spend my days on Fornits. Loser.
Well, I was gonna go out on the boat but it was pouring down rain so I went shopping instead. I have to admit, I love my life. I"m pretty spoiled. ::bwahaha2::
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And I'm still waiting for you to show me where any of us "delighted" in this kid's death as you accused us of. I guess you'll get back to me on that, huh? :roll:
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You posted Karen's name from an obituary guestbook. And, you are wrong. Karen did discuss Joe on ST- just not by name which I was totally appalled by because I knew it wouldn't take the roaches on Fornits long to find crumbs of her life scattered around the internet- and then, as insensitive as they could possible be, post the names of the grieving parents here. Just an observation- you're twisted and angry. And Karen is a blabbermouth.
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Yes, I agree Karen is a blabbermouth. It was nice to see her get a lesson in the internets, wasn't it? :D
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It should not have been at the expense of a grieving family- my point exactly, thanks.
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It should not have been at the expense of a grieving family- my point exactly, thanks.
Can you quote what you are talking about?
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I'm making this post simply because Carlbrook is not 1337.
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Many of our kids came out of wilderness with the same attitude your son has. My son also wanted to go back and work at the program. However, two months of sobriety or treatment is usually not enough. What TBS gets them is more time to mature and undergo intense therapy with a group of peers who will hold them accountable and call them on their "bullshit". If you can accomplish this within your family and community, go for it, but it would be VERY unusual. Keep us posted since I suspect you may be in for a rough ride.
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TSW- First of all, that poster is not Karen. Secondly, the post (which likely was copied from Strugglingteens) referenced wilderness, not TBS. And, yes, therapy occurs both in wilderness programs and at a TBS. If the kid could stay at home and mature without destroying herself or himself, the family and his or her future, yes, that would be a better option.
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Hope you're having a good weekend, karen. :wave:
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And, yes, therapy occurs both in wilderness programs and at a TBS. .
Liar.
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TSW- First of all, that poster is not Karen. Secondly, the post (which likely was copied from Strugglingteens) referenced wilderness, not TBS. And, yes, therapy occurs both in wilderness programs and at a TBS. If the kid could stay at home and mature without destroying herself or himself, the family and his or her future, yes, that would be a better option.
1. Therapy at a wilderness program? Where? Enumerate it in detail, please.
2. TBS therapy? Where? What? Enumerate in detail. Note: "structure", LGAT seminars, and levels are not "therapy" and many TBS's say outright they dont give therapy.
3. How do you justify someone being held captive against thier will at a "wilderness" or "TBS" When in the MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL CRITERIA it clearly states only when they are a danger to themselves or others and only as long as they are, which requires a doctor to a. State that they are b. Check on frequently to see when they are not and c. They have a right of appeal, well, in the real world in REAL mental hospitals, but not in programs.
I await your reply.
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TSW- First of all, that poster is not Karen. Secondly, the post (which likely was copied from Strugglingteens) referenced wilderness, not TBS. And, yes, therapy occurs both in wilderness programs and at a TBS. If the kid could stay at home and mature without destroying herself or himself, the family and his or her future, yes, that would be a better option.
Bullshit. Karen (RandomWalk) wrote precisely those words on ST. And if you READ her post, it so obviously IS about TBS. She was giving another parent some shit about not sending their kid to TBS after WC.
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TSW- First of all, that poster is not Karen. Secondly, the post (which likely was copied from Strugglingteens) referenced wilderness, not TBS. And, yes, therapy occurs both in wilderness programs and at a TBS. If the kid could stay at home and mature without destroying herself or himself, the family and his or her future, yes, that would be a better option.
Bullshit. Karen (RandomWalk) wrote precisely those words on ST. And if you READ her post, it so obviously IS about TBS. She was giving another parent some shit about not sending their kid to TBS after WC.
Two bucks the non-medical WILDERNESS->TBS pathway is facilitated for INCOME, and also just justification of their beliefs.
Its really funny how not a bit of this is backed up by medical science, studies, doctors... or anything factual or medical at all really.
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TSW,
You sound angry. Are you drinking?
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Shhiiit no, whhhat maakes yOU tHInk Im drinnnking. DRunK as a skunk by NOW.
oops- forgot TO sIgN in- This is the DRunK Two, I meaN THREE springs...
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TSW,
You sound angry. Are you drinking?
you sound like you can't respond to the previous post. guess you'll have to settle for some good ol' "attack treatment" since you have no intelligent response. thanks, karen.
and, btw, you ARE a lazy cunt. good characterization, TSW.
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Is that "TheWho" I see in who's online perusing the forums? ::bwahaha::
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"...you are a lazy cunt."
Not much to respond to there. I don't know the woman. This thread is more about Karen than it is about Carlbrook.
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"...you are a lazy cunt."
Not much to respond to there. I don't know the woman. This thread is more about Karen than it is about Carlbrook.
just how karen likes it!
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Looks like it has been a long time since your friend Karen has visited this forum, so I'm wondering why you continue to drag the thread down with your crap about her. Everytime I post you say it is Karen, and you are absolutely wrong. I guess you do that since you have nothing intelligent to say about Carlbrook or much else. Go ahead- you are such IT geniuses, show us all how I am really Karen posting. You ask for proof about everything, well lets see some proof about who is posting here. Let's have it, genius.
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Looks like it has been a long time since your friend Karen has visited this forum, so I'm wondering why you continue to drag the thread down with your crap about her. Everytime I post you say it is Karen, and you are absolutely wrong. I guess you do that since you have nothing intelligent to say about Carlbrook or much else. Go ahead- you are such IT geniuses, show us all how I am really Karen posting. You ask for proof about everything, well lets see some proof about who is posting here. Let's have it, genius.
Of course you are not Karen, she is busy under my desk giving me one hell of a bj! ::kiss:: Don't stop, karen!
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Anything that was needed to be said about Carlbrook in a meaningful manner has already been summed up nicely by Dysfunction Junction and Deborah on numerous occasions on this thread. The rest is mere entertainment and Karen for real or not is damn good entertainment. Sort of the equivalent of picking on the fat retarded kid on the school playground. No I revise that as it creates an image of sympathy for that thing disguised as a woman. Picking on Karen is the equivalent of doing a public service. People who flame Karen should be given tax breaks and other incentives for work well done.
:rofl: :D
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TSW shows his true colors- picking on the fat, retarded kid on the school playground.
As for Dysfunction Junction and Deborah, now THERE's some real authority. Talk about heads up asses. Not to mention having no knowledge of Carlbrook whatsoever.
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TSW shows his true colors- picking on the fat, retarded kid on the school playground.
As for Dysfunction Junction and Deborah, now THERE's some real authority. Talk about heads up asses. Not to mention having no knowledge of Carlbrook whatsoever.
Seriously who needs a TV when you have this kind of drama, FOR FREE?!
In a weird way, I kind of love you Karen, you make this place much more lively. Toodles! :wave:
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TSW,
You sound angry. Are you drinking?
Class, here we have two clear examples of the dodge and perry kind of "debating" tactics (and I use the term loosely) typical of program people. Ad Hominem, when you can't carry your end of the discussion attack the messenger, and confusing causation and correlation. Why do you equate having a drink to being angry? This is what happens when they get confused and that happens with ever increasing frequency. When you start to see these things come up in the conversation you know you've hit a nerve.
Class dismissed.
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Please, he called her a "lazy cunt." What kind of attack is that? Ad Hominem or just hostility?That is what the above poster was referring to. The tables were just reversed...and I do believe he was drunk. I've not seen him use that word or those tactics before.
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Please, he called her a "lazy cunt." What kind of attack is that? Ad Hominem or just hostility?That is what the above poster was referring to.
Then you haven't been paying attention. She's been around here for years threatening and harassing people. She takes on multiple identities, posts regarding things she has no clue about, plasters her kids information all over the net and in general is a complete moron and a holier than though, I'm so above you kind of asshole.
and I do believe he was drunk. I've not seen him use that word or those tactics before.
:rofl: Ok, now I know you haven't been paying attention.
Why do you think he's drunk just because he's angry? Damn, can you people focus on anything else? Alcohol is not the cause of all the ills in the world.
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I am actually overly nice when I get drunk... I think a lot of people are that way. Seriously... I love you all... :o
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The only ones with the right to be angry with Karen are her own children for the shoddy treatment she has bestowed upon them.
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Dear me my apologies of course, but cheers to you TSW you bloody savage colonial, dreadful drink of choice you have no doubt in some pale lager. Ever consider a good gin and bitters?
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TSW appears to finally be losing it- or have he and Dysfunction Junction finally morphed into one person? The only harassing done on Fornits is by the regular anti-program posters. No ST parent stays around Fornits long, and no one has harrassed or threatened anyone. Karen is the one who has been impersonated. If a parent gives you back what you dish out, they are immediately villified.
The information on this thread and in this forum is pretty much all crap-whether it is about programs or whether it is attacking specific parents. Doesn't take much to figure that out. It is a shame that TSW is unhappy with his life and feels isolated, but calling people names is probably not the way to address these personal issues. Alcohol is certainly preferable to making a fool of one's self.
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No ST parent stays around Fornits long, and no one has harrassed or threatened anyone.
Of course you guys don't stick around here. You can't spin and control the content and conversation.
Karen is the one who has been impersonated.
yes but only after Karen's mulitple personalities emerged
If a parent gives you back what you dish out, they are immediately villified.
Nah, they're villified because of the sadistic way they treat and view their kids.
The information on this thread and in this forum is pretty much all crap-whether it is about programs or whether it is attacking specific parents.
You just keep telling yourself that if it makes ya feel better hon.
It is a shame that TSW is unhappy with his life and feels isolated, but calling people names is probably not the way to address these personal issues.
Again, why do you assume that anyone who has a problem with these mindrape mills must be unhappy or dissatisfied with life?
Alcohol is certainly preferable to making a fool of one's self.
Get over your obsession with alcohol. :roll: Karen and the ST drones are the only ones making fools out of themselves.
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Program parents are just like an older guy who dates high school girls--he's an immature jerk who no grown woman would put up with. His relationship skills can't stand the light of day with women his own age.
Program parents' have parenting behaviors that can't stand the light of day among normal parents.
Not against perfect parents--we're not. We're just normal parents, and "average" is a lot higher standard of parenting skills than the Program parents display.
Any normal parent who showed up here would at least be horrified by Tranquility Bay. Any normal parent would be horrified at the living conditions of the kids there. Any normal parent, even if they believed their own Program was good and necessary, would stick around and try to shut down Tranquility Bay and some of the other worst offenders.
But Program parents can't stand to stick around at all, because they can't stand to see that they, themselves, are more than half of the problem with their kids, and that they could keep their kids home if they, themselves, would grow up and parent at least to average standards.
Their kids would still be wild, sure. Their kids would still be royal pains in the butt, sure. Their kids' antics would still scare them white and give them gray hair, sure. Wah. Nobody ever said parenting wouldn't be hard as hell. It's the toughest job there is.
Using a Program is a cop out, just like it is for older guys to date high school girls. It's a behavior that can't stand the light of day among their peers.
So they can't stand to stay.
Julie
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But Program parents can't stand to stick around at all, because they can't stand to see that they, themselves, are more than half of the problem with their kids, and that they could keep their kids home if they, themselves, would grow up and parent at least to average standards.
Now this is the salient point, isn't it? Well said.
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It is actually an invalid point. Many parents do own up to the fact that they are a big part of the problem in the family and with the teen. This still does not mean the situation can be corrected without the teen going away for therapy and to be out of the toxic home and community environment. Julie acts like all it takes is for the parent to say "Oh. I'm a bad parent. Now I'll change and little Johnny can stay home and won't get arrested for drugs and will suddenly want to to to school and won't terrify his little sister with his raging."
What bothers folks of your ilk (julie, DJ etc) is that there actually are good programs out there and many of the parents who post on ST have success stories. That just makes you crazy, doesn't it?
You pick on Karen. From what has been posted to the point of absurdity, it appears that she had one kid in a program for one year. The kid left Carlbrook without finishing the program and went to a boarding school. He is now in college. It does not appear that he was abused or that his parents hated him or treated him so badly that he will never get over it. Unlike you, it very much would appear that the kids of the parents you attack have moved on with their lives in a way you can't even fathom. As have the parents. The reason they don't stay around this forum isn't because they can't stand to face the terrible thing they did to their kids, but because the forum is such a trash pit of insults and misinformation. A parent might drop by to toy with you for awhile- sort of like playing solitaire on the computer, but it gets boring and they move on.
My interest in the industry is not as a parent, but it takes about 5 minutes on this forum to figure out that the regular posters are pretty dysfunctional, socially retarded misfits. The information exchanged privately by members of ST is much more valuable. Contrary to your impression, not all of this information is program-speak. Many of these parents are extremely intelligent, successful professionals (which is why you attack them, I suppose) and cut through the spin of a program pretty quickly. You underestimate them. It would be helpful if you stopped living in the past when there were, in fact, a number of abusive and poor programs for teens. This is not the case today, and your goal should be to unearth the ones that are still harmful. Your position that all programs are evil is simply not correct and not supportable. You have destroyed your credibility along with this website by your bashing of all programs and of parents. All that has been accomplished is to amuse each other, which is really a pathetic statement about your reason for existing.
I know this is a new concept to you, but it really is time to grow up and focus your efforts on something that is more than a figment of your imagination or a desperate need to hang onto past wrongs done to you by ex-husbands, employers or parents.
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It is actually an invalid point. Many parents do own up to the fact that they are a big part of the problem in the family and with the teen. This still does not mean the situation can be corrected without the teen going away for therapy and to be out of the toxic home and community environment. Julie acts like all it takes is for the parent to say "Oh. I'm a bad parent. Now I'll change and little Johnny can stay home and won't get arrested for drugs and will suddenly want to to to school and won't terrify his little sister with his raging."
Then you're not reading the same posts of hers that I am. It takes much more than just owning up to being a shitty parent and it does not need to include sending the kid away. It takes actual changes from the parents, not talk and not blaming the kids. Not the kind like 'oh I fucked up in being to lenient so now it's time for tough love' mentality either. It's a long process.
What bothers folks of your ilk (julie, DJ etc) is that there actually are good programs out there and many of the parents who post on ST have success stories. That just makes you crazy, doesn't it?
I've been looking over at ST and I don't really see too much activity over there. It bothers me that people believe[/b] there are good programs out there. It makes me crazy that kids are still going through this shit, but you guys? Nah.
You pick on Karen. From what has been posted to the point of absurdity, it appears that she had one kid in a program for one year. The kid left Carlbrook without finishing the program and went to a boarding school. He is now in college. It does not appear that he was abused or that his parents hated him or treated him so badly that he will never get over it.
I'll give you that it gets absurd at times, but I have to say in Karen's case it's well deserved. I'd be hard pressed to think of a more pompous, judgemental, conceited, superficial parent that's come on here. I was out of my program for about 10 years before I finally understood what happened to me in there. You seem to think as long as the kids aren't being beaten that they're safe. That's delusional. You think that there isn't going to be any damage from forcing someone to change against their will. You think that teens in captivity having enormous power over other teens isn't harmful.
Unlike you, it very much would appear that the kids of the parents you attack have moved on with their lives in a way you can't even fathom. As have the parents.
You have no idea who I am or anything about me other than what you've read here. How can you justify making a complete judgement about someone without knowing them? And again, talk to some of the kids after they've been out for a number of years.
The reason they don't stay around this forum isn't because they can't stand to face the terrible thing they did to their kids, but because the forum is such a trash pit of insults and misinformation.
Yes, insults abound here at Fornits. No denying that but you need to understand where we're coming from. Most of us are survivors of extremely abusive programs. We see these programs today, we research, we listen (I know you don't believe that but we do, well quite a few of us anyway) and what we invariably find is that there really isn't much of a difference between then and now. Slicker sales pitches maybe, they've honed their marketing skills and scare tactics but that's really about it.
A parent might drop by to toy with you for awhile- sort of like playing solitaire on the computer, but it gets boring and they move on.
My interest in the industry is not as a parent, but it takes about 5 minutes on this forum to figure out that the regular posters are pretty dysfunctional, socially retarded misfits.
I know, I know. It's so much easier to dismiss what we say when you see us like that.
The information exchanged privately by members of ST is much more valuable. Contrary to your impression, not all of this information is program-speak.
It obviously can't stand up to public scrutiny.
Many of these parents are extremely intelligent, successful professionals (which is why you attack them, I suppose) and cut through the spin of a program pretty quickly. You underestimate them.
They're attacked on here because they're intelligent, successful professionals? What the hell are you talking about? Why are you people so fucking self-righteous?
It would be helpful if you stopped living in the past when there were, in fact, a number of abusive and poor programs for teens.
Again, you know nothing about me. I don't live in the past. I'm worried about what people that believe as you do are doing to kids. If this shit had stopped when my program was shut down, I wouldn't be here. but they didn't. They spun out of control.
This is not the case today, and your goal should be to unearth the ones that are still harmful.
This is what you people never seem to understand. You can't make them NOT harmful. They entire premise is flawed from the start. You can't dress it up, tone it down or anything else to change that. It's fundamentally the same thing. They all use the therapeutic community approach. I don't even think that's helpful for consenting adults but I damn sure know it's destructive as hell to a kid with no choice
Your position that all programs are evil is simply not correct and not supportable.
Yes it is. We've given you research and studies to show that but you dismiss anything that doesn't support your decision.
You have destroyed your credibility along with this website by your bashing of all programs and of parents. All that has been accomplished is to amuse each other, which is really a pathetic statement about your reason for existing.
Wrong again. I can think of at least a dozen kids off the top of my head that have been pulled out of programs as a direct result of reading here and then contacting people off the boards. Shit, I just had a parent, today ask me to email them about Hyde.
I know this is a new concept to you, but it really is time to grow up and focus your efforts on something that is more than a figment of your imagination or a desperate need to hang onto past wrongs done to you by ex-husbands, employers or parents.
You condescending asshole! And you wonder why you get slammed in here. :roll:
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The reason they don't stay around this forum isn't because they can't stand to face the terrible thing they did to their kids, but because the forum is such a trash pit of insults and misinformation. A parent might drop by to toy with you for awhile- sort of like playing solitaire on the computer, but it gets boring and they move on.
Then why have you been coming back for years now, Karen? You cannot even post in first person for some reason, and you can't help but spew lies everytime you post. Sure, there are some pretty weird people here that post here, but no one even gets close to the amount of issues you have, Karen. If you really believed we were a bunch of socially retarded misfits, then why even take the time to write such a long post out, afterall, we are too stupid to understand it. The reason you do that is because you don't believe what you type, but you hate us so much you don't know what else to say. You try to make a somewhat intelligent remark out of an insult, that's all you've been doing for years. That is why everybody hates you, and maybe you don't even know it. You exude negativity, so much so it shows in your posts on the internet.
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A parent might drop by to toy with you for awhile- sort of like playing solitaire on the computer, but it gets boring and they move on.
My interest in the industry is not as a parent, but it takes about 5 minutes on this forum to figure out that the regular posters are pretty dysfunctional, socially retarded misfits.
Well, at least you don't think I am ugly. I can now sleep at night. :)
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It would be helpful if you stopped living in the past when there were, in fact, a number of abusive and poor programs for teens. This is not the case today, and your goal should be to unearth the ones that are still harmful.
It looks like you're the one living in the past if you believe there are no longer "abusive and poor programs for teens." Look at the ST "Program Questions" forum and you will find posts in just the last few weeks from parents asking about abusive places like Mission Mountain School or Boulder Creek Academy. Some of these parents say things like "my EC recommended this program." These programs DO still exist and sadly, kids who might benefit from real therapy get sent to these torture camps instead. I guarantee you there are escorts on airplanes with kids TODAY who are on their way to these and similar programs. Business is booming.
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It would be helpful if you stopped living in the past when there were, in fact, a number of abusive and poor programs for teens. This is not the case today, and your goal should be to unearth the ones that are still harmful.
Well, we don't have to search far, we can just look at some of the programs that ST endorses.
(http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/Buttons/images/buttons/prosicon.gif)
I was at Provo, it is abusive. ST endorses it? How does one go about 'unearthing' bad programs, when you were already at a few and were treated like shit, scream your lungs out, and nobody listens. To top it off, organizations espousing the idea of finding these bad programs, are referring kids to them for a financial profit. I am sure there are more abusive programs listed on ST, I just don't have the time to match them up. But just glancing briefly I was able to spot a program I was actually at, and that is abusive. So I don't know what else to tell you. You are supporting a website that profits from the abuse of children, whether you want to believe that or not is up to you.
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We should all "grow up"?
I interpret that to mean, we should think/believe/act as you do?
Now that's one darned "grown up" thing to say.
Victims feel a strong need to evaluate and control, everyone and everything. Might have a look at that.
Was talking to a group of ladies who were lamenting about the trouble they'd had with their teens. Four in the group had used the services of a city funded program called City House. Requires a referral, but all services are free, and ladies ain't poor by any stretch of the imagination.
All thought they were going to counseling with their kid in order to fix him/her. All found out differently.
What stands out is the basic philosophy of this program. The therapist there work to keep the family together and help bridge the communication gap. No one will ever convince me that this can happened when parent and child are thousands of miles apart. Get to the source of the child's distress [group confessions and humiliation not required] And this really impressed me- The therpists at CH told these parents that statistics show that a kid who 'veers off the path' is usually off the path for 18 months max, start to finish. Hmmm
One mother shared that her son went 'heywire' and after several months of counseling the source of his distress was revealed. He'd almost died in a motorcycle accident six months prior and hadn't processed his thoughts and feelings around the event.
Really good therapists are about as rare as really good attorneys, but they're out there. As are many effective community programs. If the goal is to get the kid out of the house, those services will be impossible to find.
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I am not Karen. I am very curious as to why you think I am. I am not a parent of a teen, but I am very knowledgable about the industry.
You want so badly to believe that only one person challenges you, and that person must be the dreaded Karen. I have read her posts, and I agree with her, and find her posts to be insightful and not at all condescending. I think she has many more supporters than any of you do. My staff laughs their heads off everytime you go off on your Karen tangents. She has set you up beautifully and created a total break-down any possible logic of your site.
Deborah- it's "haywire", not "heywire". Perhaps there are some non-residential programs that would work in some instances. Without being in the shoes of a particular family, it is not for you to judge whether that family made the right decision about treatment for their child.
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I am not Karen. I am very curious as to why you think I am. I am not a parent of a teen, but I am very knowledgable about the industry.
You want so badly to believe that only one person challenges you, and that person must be the dreaded Karen. I have read her posts, and I agree with her, and find her posts to be insightful and not at all condescending. I think she has many more supporters than any of you do. My staff laughs their heads off everytime you go off on your Karen tangents. She has set you up beautifully and created a total break-down any possible logic of your site.
Deborah- it's "haywire", not "heywire". Perhaps there are some non-residential programs that would work in some instances. Without being in the shoes of a particular family, it is not for you to judge whether that family made the right decision about treatment for their child.
yeah, you're just the kind of mean-spirited, petty asshole that populates the staffs of this industry.
do you have any clue how incredibly bad you make yourself look with your know-it-all armchair assessments of industry detractors? probably not.
in any case, the only person who comes off looking like a fool and a complete loser is you. nice job. i wouldn't let you anywhere near my - or any - kid.
thanks for the free anti-program advertising. parents needn't look any further than foolhardy blow-hards like yourself to know to stay away from these businesses. your quite obviously not any kind of professional from the way you comport yourself and present your understanding. that's obvious. my guess is that you're a pee-on night staff at some b-mod shit hole.
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I am not Karen. I am very curious as to why you think I am. I am not a parent of a teen, but I am very knowledgable about the industry.
Hmm, and how exactly is that? And what the hell would you know about raising them if you don't have any?
You want so badly to believe that only one person challenges you, and that person must be the dreaded Karen. I have read her posts, and I agree with her, and find her posts to be insightful and not at all condescending. I think she has many more supporters than any of you do. My staff laughs their heads off everytime you go off on your Karen tangents. She has set you up beautifully and created a total break-down any possible logic of your site.
It's not "their" site. There are many of us here. You focus on the easy target instead of having a clear discussion with anyone else who is trying. That way you can just hurl insults and avoid anything else that is said.
Deborah- it's "haywire", not "heywire". Perhaps there are some non-residential programs that would work in some instances. Without being in the shoes of a particular family, it is not for you to judge whether that family made the right decision about treatment for their child.
But you feel completely justified in judging everyone here without having any knowledge of us whatsoever. Got it. :roll:
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You are just too easy. Work on thtat anger a little bit and life will be a little more enjoyable.
I understand how hard it is for you when you are made to look so foolish, but responding in anger doesn't get you anywhere.
Let me teach you something- Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again hoping for different results. How's that working for you, buddy?
I hope Karen does read this forum, but I doubt it. Don't you find it a little embarrassing that you went from calling her an unemployed loser to saying she spent so much time on her career that she never intended to raise her kids? Some of this I can attribute to your immaturity and youth, but some of it is that you are simply not particularly bright. I'm sorry. How are those fries coming?
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It?s knowledgeable, not ?knowledgable? AND every time, not ?everytime?. I know it's hard for an anal retentive to accept, but dag nabbit, everybody makes mistakes. You too my dear have faults. And an obvious fault would be convincing parents that their kid needs a program. Who pays you? Program or parent?
Put your knowledge of the industry to good use. Is Focal Point Academy licensed as a Foster Home or RTC? Post some evidence (as in a study) that the industry is effective. Earn your money for once. Smoke and mirrors may work for desperate parents, won't fly here.
But then, you're not really here to contribute to any meaningful discussion are you? You're here to evaluate and criticize Fornits and those who criticize Karen, as if your criticism is somehow different or better. Go figure.
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You are just too easy. Work on thtat anger a little bit and life will be a little more enjoyable.
I understand how hard it is for you when you are made to look so foolish, but responding in anger doesn't get you anywhere.
Let me teach you something- Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again hoping for different results. How's that working for you, buddy?
I hope Karen does read this forum, but I doubt it. Don't you find it a little embarrassing that you went from calling her an unemployed loser to saying she spent so much time on her career that she never intended to raise her kids? Some of this I can attribute to your immaturity and youth, but some of it is that you are simply not particularly bright. I'm sorry. How are those fries coming?
This, ladies and gentlemen, is called "projection" in the parlance of psychology. This poster clearly has some very, very deep-seated issues surrounding his/her self-value and takes out his/her own shortcomings on anonymous strangers on the internet. This is not the type of person who should be working with kids. Just look at the degree of maladaption expressed here and imagine how this person would behave with children over whom s/he had complete control behind closed doors. It's a truly frightening proposition.
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What a joke! It's OK for you to take your shortcomings out on total strangers on the internet (program parents) but it's not OK for he/she to do the exact same thing?? Don't even try to win this argument- keep to the subject- the programs- and you won't look like a jackass (as much.)
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I am not Karen. I am very curious as to why you think I am. I am not a parent of a teen, but I am very knowledgable about the industry.
You want so badly to believe that only one person challenges you, and that person must be the dreaded Karen. I have read her posts, and I agree with her, and find her posts to be insightful and not at all condescending. I think she has many more supporters than any of you do. My staff laughs their heads off everytime you go off on your Karen tangents. She has set you up beautifully and created a total break-down any possible logic of your site.
Deborah- it's "haywire", not "heywire". Perhaps there are some non-residential programs that would work in some instances. Without being in the shoes of a particular family, it is not for you to judge whether that family made the right decision about treatment for their child.
Karen, you have already been PROVEN to make posts that start with that exact same line 'I am not Karen' to be YOU! You are not fooling anyone. This is the same shit you've been pulling for years now.
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What a joke! It's OK for you to take your shortcomings out on total strangers on the internet (program parents) but it's not OK for he/she to do the exact same thing?? Don't even try to win this argument- keep to the subject- the programs- and you won't look like a jackass (as much.)
Sorry, anal retentive ones, him/her!
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It's not "their" site. There are many of us here. You focus on the easy target instead of having a clear discussion with anyone else who is trying. That way you can just hurl insults and avoid anything else that is said.
:
:wstupid:
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...but it's not OK for he/she to do the exact same thing??
ok, now we're getting somewhere. we didn't know you were a "he/she" or we would have been more sensitive toward your transvestism.
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Cute. Just don't know if the poster is a he or a she.
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***Karen, you have already been PROVEN to make posts that start with that exact same line 'I am not Karen' to be YOU! You are not fooling anyone. This is the same shit you've been pulling for years now.
Another telling sign- Karen is very quick to correct people's spelling. Check her posts.
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Cute. Just don't know if the poster is a he or a she.
it's both. and it has issues.
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Yeah she does it to troll. She knows we know she is karen, and her standard troll is 'im not karen'. its a pretty simple trolling technique.. just blatantly saying a lie like truth, it messes with peoples heads. dont succomb.. nobody cares enough about karen to defend her online.
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Isn't it about time for school to start?
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Karen works for my dad's company. He told me she has a special chair made for the obese.
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The Carlbrook School must be happy Karen's around to take the heat. 75% of the posts aren't about Carlbrook at all. They are mostly about Karen.
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The Carlbrook School must be happy Karen's around to take the heat. 75% of the posts aren't about Carlbrook at all. They are mostly about Karen.
Did you use that kind of backward, reverse psychology on your kids too, Karen?
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You focus on the easy target instead of having a clear discussion with anyone else who is trying. That way you can just hurl insults and avoid anything else that is said.
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It looks like there are other people here who are interested in actually debating the issue. Why do you keep responding to the trash talk and ignore the others?
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I'll take that as a yes. :oops:
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I've been around these parts for a while.........and I still can't figure out who the hell Karen is?????
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I can't even remember her original name here, she's had so many. Anyone got a link to a thread that easily explains what a Karen is? Basically she sent her kid away because he smoked pot. After he finished one program, she decided it wasn't enough and sent him to a longer, more extensive one and now advocates sending nearly every kid with any of those "symptoms" you see plastered all over teen help sites to a program. She's really hung up on the ivy league shit. Thinks she's better than anyone else. You're typical Stepcraft junky.
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I can't even remember her original name here, she's had so many. Anyone got a link to a thread that easily explains what a Karen is? Basically she sent her kid away because he smoked pot. After he finished one program, she decided it wasn't enough and sent him to a longer, more extensive one and now advocates sending nearly every kid with any of those "symptoms" you see plastered all over teen help sites to a program. She's really hung up on the ivy league shit. Thinks she's better than anyone else. You're typical Stepcraft junky.
^^^^Me.
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Um- you have the wrong person. Karen didn't send her kid away for smoking pot. You're thinking about Leslie.
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Could be, but Karen is the one who's obsessessed with programs and ivy league schools. If your kid doesn't get into one they're just shit. Parents may be gullible enough to get roped into sending their kid away once, but that's not good enough for people like Karen. As soon as they get out of one, they're scheduled for another right away.
Was that Karen's post that referred to the "plans they made" for her son close to his 18th birthday? Plans they made for his life?
It would be funny if not so sad, but I've seen parents on ST advise other parents to get their almost 18 kid into a another program QUICK! Before you don't have any control! Control being the operative word here. :roll:
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Karen's son went to wilderness and TBS for a total of a year. That is not exactly being obsessed with programs. The post about planning the kid's life was not hers. If you lift people's posts off of other forums, such as college discussion forums, you might want to consider the context before you throw around words like "obsessed". Hmmm, is Miss Anne feeling some inferiority?
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Her full name is Karen Sue Austin. She sent both a couple kids (step kids?) to residential programs. She is the type that believes all teens can benefit from them, even if they did nothing wrong.
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Only her son went to an emotional growth program- for a total of a year. Get your facts straight.
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Since when is Interlochen not a residential program? Why must you send all your kids away, Karen, why??
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Only her son went to an emotional growth program- for a total of a year. Get your facts straight.
only YOU would say HER when you when it really is MY.
get your identities straight, karen, you loser.
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I am not Karen, despite how badly you want me to be. Yes, Interlochen is a boarding school. It is hardly in the same category of the places discussed on this forum. The kids who attended Interlochen from my home town went through a rigorous audition and were chosen from hundreds of applicants. When you run out of bullshit to spew, you really reach, don't you? Very amusing. One can only hope you realize how foolish you appear. You're drowning, child- run on back to shore.
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Thank you for acknowledging that you sent BOTH your kids away, see the truth isn't that hard is it?. What bothers you so much about your kids that you have to send them away?
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I am not Karen, despite how badly you want me to be. Yes, Interlochen is a boarding school. It is hardly in the same category of the places discussed on this forum. The kids who attended Interlochen from my home town went through a rigorous audition and were chosen from hundreds of applicants. When you run out of bullshit to spew, you really reach, don't you? Very amusing. One can only hope you realize how foolish you appear. You're drowning, child- run on back to shore.
why don't you log in, brokenlegNO, wildfig or whatever you're calling yourself today?
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Thank you for acknowledging that you sent BOTH your kids away, see the truth isn't that hard is it?. What bothers you so much about your kids that you have to send them away?
This may come as a huge shock, but some kids want to take advantage of unique educational opportunities and are willing to live away from home to do so. It isn't a matter of having to send them away- it's a matter of parents being willing to make financial and emotional sacrifices to allow their kids to go away to school. I realize this is a world which someone of your bottom-feeding stature could never comprehend, but it does exist out there. You are showing your lack of class by criticizing a parent who allowed a child to go to the premier arts academy in the country. I'm still laughing. You just don't get it.
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Karen's son went to wilderness and TBS for a total of a year. That is not exactly being obsessed with programs. The post about planning the kid's life was not hers. If you lift people's posts off of other forums, such as college discussion forums, you might want to consider the context before you throw around words like "obsessed". Hmmm, is Miss Anne feeling some inferiority?
Uh, no. I didn't lift it. If I made a mistake in the identity of the poster, I made a mistake. I can admit that. Damn, what's with you? Why are you so mean spirited and condescending? This seems to be typical of program parents and it's very much Karen's MO.
I haven't been here in a while and with Karen using so many differnt IDs and posting anon so much it's easy to confuse one program bot for another. Y'all spout almost the exact same shit verbatim.
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This may come as a huge shock, but some kids want to take advantage of unique educational opportunities and are willing to live away from home to do so. It isn't a matter of having to send them away- it's a matter of parents being willing to make financial and emotional sacrifices to allow their kids to go away to school. I realize this is a world which someone of your bottom-feeding stature could never comprehend, but it does exist out there. You are showing your lack of class by criticizing a parent who allowed a child to go to the premier arts academy in the country. I'm still laughing. You just don't get it.
::boohoo::
Your pals at ST not giving you what you need these days, Karen? :rofl: I wonder if you enjoy slummin' it in your real life as well. I bet you do, right, Karen? :lol:
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The kids who seemed to do the best, both socially and academically, at the boarding schools with which I have personal experience, are the kids who are pretty good at managing themselves. The kids have to be able to get themselves out of bed, manage their time, maintain some semblance of a nutrious diet etc. My daughter said she would NOT have wanted to spend more than the 2 years she did (junior and senior) at her boarding school. She loved the experience and it has served her well, but the communities are not very big, and it can all wear thin. (Especially true in the case of her school, which was populated by a bunch of temperamental musicians, dancers and actors!) Karen
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I have never regretted sending my kids to boarding school. My daughter went as a junior so that she could have specialized training in music. She needed to be with "like-minded peers", as we say on this board. I missed her, but it was the right thing for her. I was able to nurture her from afar and by the time she was 16 there wasn't a lot of day to day nurturing going on in our home anyway!
Our public school system is awful, and for various reasons (some his fault and some not) our son exhausted the private school options. The "rich kid" mentality was actually stronger here in our private day schools than it was in his boarding school. He seemed to take "nurturing" better from his advisors at the boarding school than he did from us! The athletic opportunities for him were much better at the boarding school he now attends. I love it so much- I wish I could be there! I miss him and I miss being more involved in "high school life", but this is the way things have worked out for our family.
It IS a very individual decision. Most of the boarding parents I have met are deeply involved with their kids and very supportive of the school.
Karen
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Have any of you had to deal with some major "blips" in your educational path? My son got kicked out of a disastrous boarding school in March of his soph year do to a combination of factors- some his issues, some the school's. None of the issues were academic. He spent a year in a very structured boarding school with good academics and a strong support system and was admitted to a top prep boarding school in the NE where he is doing a 2nd junior year and will do a senior year. His academics were strong throughout all this upheaval. His emotional growth has been impressive, and he is regarded as a mature young man and a strong contributor to his current school. He is also likely to be a recruited runner which he will use to help him get an edge for some top schools. Everyone on this board seems so exceptional- any situations similar to ours? Thanks. Karen
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RandomWalk
Member
Member # 3697
posted July 04, 2006 06:38 AM
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Mose- I agree. It is absolutely an option that should be considered unless the family's religious beliefs rule it out. That is sure the direction I would want to head in this situation.
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So now you are signing your posts, Karen? Interesting. Yes, I had a 'blip' in my education path. I was sent away to a restrictive boarding school because my parents were uncomfortable being around me for some reason. How about you, did you have any 'blips' in your path? What is the last post about, is sending your kid away have something to do with religious beliefs now?
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Suddenly she's signing her posts?? Could it be that the anons were Karen all along? Coinkydink?? I think not! :rofl:
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Those are old posts taken from another forum. Give it up.
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Whatever sweetheart. I don't really care. I would bet good money that she's been here lately posting anon or under another name.
Again, why are you such a mean spirited bitch?? I haven't said anything offensive to you that I can think of. Oh, wait.....you're posting anon, I guess I could have. But DAMN woman!! Menopause getting you down? The have drugs for that ya know. Probably have a good "school" opening up soon to deal with that. :roll: :roll:
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You are showing your lack of class by criticizing a parent who allowed a child to go to the premier arts academy in the country. I'm still laughing. You just don't get it.
To the ST parent who wrote that (I don't care if your name is Karen or not), there are several things YOU don't get. It is neither smart nor productive to bring up the name -- on this forum -- of a genuine boarding school, one that has no "therapists" and is a place where every student CHOOSES to be there and in fact had to audition to get admitted. You have just sullied the reputation of a fine school by adding it to the search engines that will now associate a real school with Fornits and with the 'troubled teen' industry.
You also don't seem to have much sensitivity to the fact that many of the young people that visit and post here have been to other "boarding schools" that were NOT real schools and were NOT voluntary. It's seems quite logical that they would be skeptical of any boarding school mentioned by an ST parent. Their past experience with parents like you and gulag 'schools' like the ones they have been to make them inclined not to believe anything you say. Your insulting manner with them isn't going to help you score any points or help them try to listen to anything you might wish to say to them or ask of them.
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Are you sure you didn't work for a PR firm, Karen? That's some serious program speak right there.
I have never regretted sending my kids to boarding school.
Of course you didn't.
My daughter went as a junior so that she could have specialized training in music. She needed to be with "like-minded peers", as we say on this board. I missed her, but it was the right thing for her.
Poor Karen, it must of been hell missing her right? It's just coincidence that both your kids are sent away for long periods of time, right?
I was able to nurture her from afar and by the time she was 16 there wasn't a lot of day to day nurturing going on in our home anyway!
With letters and phone calls? That's some great parenting, Karen. :roll: Why was there no nurturing going on at home, busy out making money? Why couldn't you wait a couple years and nurture your kids yourself, or your husband?
Our public school system is awful, and for various reasons (some his fault and some not) our son exhausted the private school options.
You mean, he got expelled?
The "rich kid" mentality was actually stronger here in our private day schools than it was in his boarding school.
So, you spoiled him.
He seemed to take "nurturing" better from his advisors at the boarding school than he did from us!
They can get away with more, and punish him without you having to hear about. Out of sight, out of mind. As long as he comes back fixed, right? Results before means, right, Karen?
The athletic opportunities for him were much better at the boarding school he now attends.
Wow, it sounds so great! Can I go to a restrictive and authoritarian facility too? :roll: The athletic opportunities in prison are better than those in schools.
I love it so much- I wish I could be there!
You are so full of shit, Karen.
I miss him and I miss being more involved in "high school life", but this is the way things have worked out for our family.
It's the way you wanted it, don't make it seem like random circumstance.
It IS a very individual decision. Most of the boarding parents I have met are deeply involved with their kids and very supportive of the school.
Karen
If they were deeply involved with their kids, they wouldn't be sending them away, would they? Like you said, there was no day to day nurturing in your home. When you read between the lines of your posts Karen, it really is a sad story. It sounds like a loveless household.
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HA HA HA. Like I'm trying to score points with these bottom feeders or convince them to listen to me? A two minute perusal of this forum would show anyone how far that would get them.
And if you truly think the reputation of any school would be tarnished by being mentioned on Fornits...well, can I sell you some land?
Also-I'm not a ST parent. It's a dead forum and I don't bother with it.
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HA HA HA. Like I'm trying to score points with these bottom feeders or convince them to listen to me? A two minute perusal of this forum would show anyone how far that would get them.
And if you truly think the reputation of any school would be tarnished by being mentioned on Fornits...well, can I sell you some land?
Also-I'm not a ST parent. It's a dead forum and I don't bother with it.
Translation: I am astrocized and socially rejected from every forum I go to. ST, fornits, college confidential, etc.
Why do you suppose that is, Karen? :P
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Alright then, since you didn't answer my question yesterday....how do you come to be so 'informed' about the schools if you're not a parent? Hmmm?
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And you failed to answer why you're such a bitch to everyone.
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HA HA HA. Like I'm trying to score points with these bottom feeders or convince them to listen to me? A two minute perusal of this forum would show anyone how far that would get them.
And if you truly think the reputation of any school would be tarnished by being mentioned on Fornits...well, can I sell you some land?
Also-I'm not a ST parent. It's a dead forum and I don't bother with it.
So you're not actually trying to communicate your opinions with anyone on Fornits, yet you post here? How very odd...
I'll take you at your word that you're not an ST parent, but you sure seem like a Program Parent. Or maybe you're a troll from a Program who peruses Fornits to keep an eye out for where the next lawsuit against you may originate. Or maybe you're just a 13-year old who is titillated by the pain & emotion of those on this forum, and likes to visit here while waiting for the porn to finish downloading.
If you are a Program Parent and you're desperately short of cash after all that 'tuition', I'd like to help you part with that piece of land you mentioned. There's still money to be made in flipping if one can find the right seller who is desperate enough.
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Just wanted to throw in my two cents worth here. I know I'm posting at the end of a very...mature...thread, so this may not be read, but I attended Carlbrook through the first four workshops (or LGAT regression/brainwashing sessions, depending on whether or not you're willing to call a spade a spade).
I became so overwhelmed with anxiety due to my failure to internalise the drop-to-my-knees-and-wail-in-misery-for-my-abused-inner-child manner of emotional expression that I decided that the best course of action would be to go under the wire; I was sick of getting belittled and screamed at and betrayed in group "therapy" for my inability to cry in front of a room full of people. I left one morning, to join the Marine Corps. It didn't work, partly because you have to have a highschool diploma to qualify to have your legs blown off for Uncle Sam, partly because one of the staff there intercepted me and gave me some puppy-dog eyes and promised me the world of forgiveness.
A bit more railing and a "program"- in which one is isolated (via a system of communication "bans", breaking of which is met with bans and forced, high-exertion labour for the non-program party and more group "therapy" for the programmee), removed from academia, confined to a desk and forced to churn out a series of written epiphanies about why one is the way one is- later and I decided I'd rather face a tent in the snow and bean-and-rice dinners than get bent over for the rest of my internment at Carlbrook. Handy, really, because the staff had already decided to renege on their promise of not moving back my emancipation date or sending me back to the woods (the typical punishment for leaving the program, though we did receive frequent warnings about the much-worse programs that existed in the real world and how LUCKY we were that our parents sent us to Carlbrook).
To cut a long story short, I definitely felt as if I had been driven to breaking point by that program, despite having been given the cushiest roles and leadership perks that the place had to offer. I'm pretty sure my psyche is still healing from that whole experience. That said, since then I've been in places that made me dream of being at Carlbrook; there was a warm bed, hot and decent food, and plenty of people to get close to. Funny though, cause I never really freaked out anywhere that I didn't have people trying to deconstruct my ego and tamper with my essence as a human.
Anyway, I did get my highschool diploma, and decided I liked my legs more than I liked...well, I don't even LIKE the government, so God knows why I wanted to go fight for it, and now I'm in college in New Zealand. I might be damaged, but I ain't broke.
For anyone who was there when I bailed, I do have a really soft spot for all of you, and I'm sorry about how I left. My B.
Sturge
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Just wanted to throw in my two cents worth here. I know I'm posting at the end of a very...mature...thread, so this may not be read, but I attended Carlbrook through the first four workshops (or LGAT regression/brainwashing sessions, depending on whether or not you're willing to call a spade a spade).
I became so overwhelmed with anxiety due to my failure to internalise the drop-to-my-knees-and-wail-in-misery-for-my-abused-inner-child manner of emotional expression that I decided that the best course of action would be to go under the wire; I was sick of getting belittled and screamed at and betrayed in group "therapy" for my inability to cry in front of a room full of people. I left one morning, to join the Marine Corps. It didn't work, partly because you have to have a highschool diploma to qualify to have your legs blown off for Uncle Sam, partly because one of the staff there intercepted me and gave me some puppy-dog eyes and promised me the world of forgiveness.
A bit more railing and a "program"- in which one is isolated (via a system of communication "bans", breaking of which is met with bans and forced, high-exertion labour for the non-program party and more group "therapy" for the programmee), removed from academia, confined to a desk and forced to churn out a series of written epiphanies about why one is the way one is- later and I decided I'd rather face a tent in the snow and bean-and-rice dinners than get bent over for the rest of my internment at Carlbrook. Handy, really, because the staff had already decided to renege on their promise of not moving back my emancipation date or sending me back to the woods (the typical punishment for leaving the program, though we did receive frequent warnings about the much-worse programs that existed in the real world and how LUCKY we were that our parents sent us to Carlbrook).
To cut a long story short, I definitely felt as if I had been driven to breaking point by that program, despite having been given the cushiest roles and leadership perks that the place had to offer. I'm pretty sure my psyche is still healing from that whole experience. That said, since then I've been in places that made me dream of being at Carlbrook; there was a warm bed, hot and decent food, and plenty of people to get close to. Funny though, cause I never really freaked out anywhere that I didn't have people trying to deconstruct my ego and tamper with my essence as a human.
Anyway, I did get my highschool diploma, and decided I liked my legs more than I liked...well, I don't even LIKE the government, so God knows why I wanted to go fight for it, and now I'm in college in New Zealand. I might be damaged, but I ain't broke.
For anyone who was there when I bailed, I do have a really soft spot for all of you, and I'm sorry about how I left. My B.
Sturge
great post. the places are all the same. call a spade a spade.
did you have Time Brace?
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Glad you're out. Glad it was before they could screw you up for keeps.
That place is run by a cabal of SEASONED CHILD ABUSERS that have been bouncing from one abusive shit-hole to the next for over twenty years.
When you have time, please tellu s more about the specifics of the program, which the parents keep telling us is "different" and better," when all the kids who went there tell us it's just more of the same BS LGATS and crap cirriculum.
Again, thanks, and I hope to hear more from you in the future.
BTW, the poster "Karen" will be along shortly to label you as a "disgruntled liar." :roll: Pay no mind to that retard.
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I have been teaching at the Carlbrook School since it opened in 2002.
I am a graduate of the College of William and Mary and have completed graduate work at the American University in Washington D.C. and Longwood University. I am a fully licensed professional teacher in the state of Virginia with ten years of experience in the profession.
I have presented conference papers for the Virginia Association of Teachers of English and the American Council for Teachers of Foreign Languages. I am certified by the National Writing Project to conduct seminars on how to teach writing. I am also a published writer with several scholarly articles coming out over the next two years in addition to poetry, editorials, and news articles.
I think that if you bother to check out the website for the school (www.carlbrook.org (http://www.carlbrook.org)) you will find that the teaching staff has similar credentials across the board. We have been educated at colleges such as King's College, London, UPenn, the University of Oklahoma at Tusca, Rutgers, and Averett. Many of us hold advanced degrees and professional licenses.
Carlbrook is also fully accredited by SACS, the regional secondary school accrediting agency. There are public schools that do not have this accreditation, which is an indication that a school meets the standards of a college preparatory program.
I think you should keep in mind as well that Carlbrook is, first and foremost, a SCHOOL. As such, our students have a 100% acceptance rate to college from our program at this time.
Some of the colleges our students have been accepted at include UCLA Berkeley, Indiana University, Bryn Mawr, Washington University, Wake Forest University, NYU, George Washington, American University, and Furman. A more complete list would take too much space, but I assure you the names are impressive.
From an academic perspective, it would be difficult to fault our school. We are highly competitve and the curriculum is extremely challenging. More importantly, we love our students and are able to form a much closer bond with them than at a more traditional school. This translates into much better support for them from their teachers academically, which translates into better school performance. We know our students' strengths and weaknesses and are able to help them improve academically in a remarkable fashion during their time here as a result.
I find the questioning of Carlbrook faculty credentials to be a useless endeavor. We are highly qualified professionals. Find something else to criticize. Better yet, visit the school and see for yourself what goes on there before you choose to post slanderous and unfounded rigamarole.
As for parents looking for a school for their children, may I suggest you contact our admissions department, our dean of academics, or another member of our board for further information? They can provide you with samples of our syllabi, course descriptions, and all other pertinent information.
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Yes, inquire about our 'academics' but don't ask questions about our experimental, CEDU based, BM techniques. We'd rather not address the specifics of that. Just trust us, and work the program. What's a little brainwashing if your kids gets into a prestigious college?
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I have been teaching at the Carlbrook School since it opened in 2002.
I am a graduate of the College of William and Mary and have completed graduate work at the American University in Washington D.C. and Longwood University. I am a fully licensed professional teacher in the state of Virginia with ten years of experience in the profession.
I have presented conference papers for the Virginia Association of Teachers of English and the American Council for Teachers of Foreign Languages. I am certified by the National Writing Project to conduct seminars on how to teach writing. I am also a published writer with several scholarly articles coming out over the next two years in addition to poetry, editorials, and news articles.
I think that if you bother to check out the website for the school (www.carlbrook.org (http://www.carlbrook.org)) you will find that the teaching staff has similar credentials across the board. We have been educated at colleges such as King's College, London, UPenn, the University of Oklahoma at Tusca, Rutgers, and Averett. Many of us hold advanced degrees and professional licenses.
Carlbrook is also fully accredited by SACS, the regional secondary school accrediting agency. There are public schools that do not have this accreditation, which is an indication that a school meets the standards of a college preparatory program.
I think you should keep in mind as well that Carlbrook is, first and foremost, a SCHOOL. As such, our students have a 100% acceptance rate to college from our program at this time.
Some of the colleges our students have been accepted at include UCLA Berkeley, Indiana University, Bryn Mawr, Washington University, Wake Forest University, NYU, George Washington, American University, and Furman. A more complete list would take too much space, but I assure you the names are impressive.
From an academic perspective, it would be difficult to fault our school. We are highly competitve and the curriculum is extremely challenging. More importantly, we love our students and are able to form a much closer bond with them than at a more traditional school. This translates into much better support for them from their teachers academically, which translates into better school performance. We know our students' strengths and weaknesses and are able to help them improve academically in a remarkable fashion during their time here as a result.
I find the questioning of Carlbrook faculty credentials to be a useless endeavor. We are highly qualified professionals. Find something else to criticize. Better yet, visit the school and see for yourself what goes on there before you choose to post slanderous and unfounded rigamarole.
As for parents looking for a school for their children, may I suggest you contact our admissions department, our dean of academics, or another member of our board for further information? They can provide you with samples of our syllabi, course descriptions, and all other pertinent information.
Nice troll. An academic saying criticism is bad :rofl:
Cough up the credentials, creep... and if it is "first and foremost a school" how do you explain all the LGAT/BM elements in there? That is not part of academia, or a part of learning, and certainly does not facilitate a good environment for learning anything, unless you feel that stress and emotional trauma helps you retain knowledge or something...
So, please, explain! I await your reply.
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This person sounds reasonably qualified, just like all the teachers at my local public high school. So why should a parent pay $10,000/month -- more than an Ivy League university -- to have this level of "academics"?
It's a scam. Parents beware.
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Just wanted to throw in my two cents worth here. I know I'm posting at the end of a very...mature...thread, so this may not be read, but I attended Carlbrook through the first four workshops (or LGAT regression/brainwashing sessions, depending on whether or not you're willing to call a spade a spade).
I became so overwhelmed with anxiety due to my failure to internalise the drop-to-my-knees-and-wail-in-misery-for-my-abused-inner-child manner of emotional expression that I decided that the best course of action would be to go under the wire; I was sick of getting belittled and screamed at and betrayed in group "therapy" for my inability to cry in front of a room full of people. I left one morning, to join the Marine Corps. It didn't work, partly because you have to have a highschool diploma to qualify to have your legs blown off for Uncle Sam, partly because one of the staff there intercepted me and gave me some puppy-dog eyes and promised me the world of forgiveness.
A bit more railing and a "program"- in which one is isolated (via a system of communication "bans", breaking of which is met with bans and forced, high-exertion labour for the non-program party and more group "therapy" for the programmee), removed from academia, confined to a desk and forced to churn out a series of written epiphanies about why one is the way one is- later and I decided I'd rather face a tent in the snow and bean-and-rice dinners than get bent over for the rest of my internment at Carlbrook. Handy, really, because the staff had already decided to renege on their promise of not moving back my emancipation date or sending me back to the woods (the typical punishment for leaving the program, though we did receive frequent warnings about the much-worse programs that existed in the real world and how LUCKY we were that our parents sent us to Carlbrook).
To cut a long story short, I definitely felt as if I had been driven to breaking point by that program, despite having been given the cushiest roles and leadership perks that the place had to offer. I'm pretty sure my psyche is still healing from that whole experience. That said, since then I've been in places that made me dream of being at Carlbrook; there was a warm bed, hot and decent food, and plenty of people to get close to. Funny though, cause I never really freaked out anywhere that I didn't have people trying to deconstruct my ego and tamper with my essence as a human.
Anyway, I did get my highschool diploma, and decided I liked my legs more than I liked...well, I don't even LIKE the government, so God knows why I wanted to go fight for it, and now I'm in college in New Zealand. I might be damaged, but I ain't broke.
For anyone who was there when I bailed, I do have a really soft spot for all of you, and I'm sorry about how I left. My B.
Sturge
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yep, sure sounds like a school to me. only at this school, the teachers and faculty are responsible for officially torturing and abusing kids instead of other kids doing it on an ad hoc basis.
this "teacher" is a troll and full of shit.
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I don't know what to say to all these comments. Theres alot, and there seems to be a lot of drama surrounded in all of this. It is a parents decison to decide what school is right for there kids. the "abuse" for the most part I strongly believe is "the harder the truth to tell the better the friend" basically I am not going to pull some carlbrook cliche bullshit out of my ass unless I really believe it, but what I am trying to say is sometimes people need a very strong, assertive, and most often overexaderated view on how things they are doing are affecting themselves and other people..
there are other times when I believe that staff is too rough, just certain staff that you know go home everynight hating the life they live. There are people that get to verbally agressive, because of there own problems that they have no figured out.
Majority of that school is amazing, but the person attending the school has to want to change........ if they do not want to change, they wont. When you litterally get "thrown" into the inviroment, its not meant to shelter you from the world, its to get rid of a lot of distractions you have when in the outside world. Its supposed to teach you to love... and through love you find out your passions in life....... if you have true goals of what you want to be when your older, and how you want to live you life, and you know them... than at times it makes people work harder...
the negitive to this, is Carlbrook kids do come out of the program very vulenerable in a lot of ways.... therefore if they mess up once, they can get down on them selves and continue to mess up....
it just depends on so many things.
the school is right for some, wrong for others... but everyone should be causious of some allegations that are being made... because that can tarnish someone, even if it is just hear say, or a child being over-dramatic because they want their parents to take them out of the school
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my friend was abused at Carlbrook.. and he said any parent who sends their kid there is an idiot and deserves to be locked up in jail.. his words not mine. steer clear of this shithole!!!!
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Hey "Just Me," you sound like you are either a Carlbrook student, former student or staff there. I hope you are a foreigner and are still learning English as a second language. I try not to be disrespectful of others and I'm sure you are a nice person, but if you are a native-born American and your written language skills are indicative of the quality of Carlbrook academics, then it is even more clear to me that parents are being ripped off when they send their children to this so-called "school."
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When people complain that it's a TBS they say no, it's a college prep school. Then when you point out the academics, or lack thereof, you're told it's a 'progressive', 'work at your own pace' school. If academics are the true and sole reason for Carlbrook, why all the discrepancy about the actual education the kids do or do not receive?
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okay... you never went to the school, so stop talking about abuse. I spent a decent amount of time there. I am out now, for over a year, I don't do drugs, and have not traded in my "drug of choice" for other unhealthy behaviors.
The thing about Carlbrook that a lot of the kids do not see, is you are handed life long skills. You can Choose to use them or not, but for some these skills get taken for granted or forgotten. Its not the schools fault...
I do believe some of the people that work at the school should not be there, but they don't really show up to to many groups anyways.
its not abusive, and these accusations should stop. Again it can tarnish a reputaion for a life time...
though this school, as life should always be anyways, is about SECOND, AND THIRD AND FOURTH chances....
Constuctive feedback, is better than trying to slander someone, or a school
but basically I am sorry, I am just getting frusterated.... because if you want to change, and you take the tools you learned from this school, you will find ways to live your life successfully...
I am 19... don't use drugs, drink and go to parties on occasion, have a great time with my family and friends, and am not afraid of being myself.... work, have recently purchased my own condo, and work my ass off. but I would not have been able to do it with out carlbrook.
its a hard school, but if you take what you learn and use it. its worth it....
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... as you say: People can not change if they don't want to change.
If the school worked out of the good for these children, they should be quick and inform the parents that their child is not working with system. If they fail to inform the parents, they are in the business for the money alone.
In such cases the kid would be better of in another place. If that poor choice lead up to the child being put in a prison at somepoint that would even be better than keeping the child in school.
"People can not change if they do not recognize the problem."
That is the basic term and you acknowledge it.
According to my experience (And I have been visiting even the most harshes prisons in Denmark as a part of my profession) most children gets over alcohol and sex as phase in their life. We prefer they do it when they are about 15 to 16 years old, so they at least can avoid drinking and driving. (You have to 18 years old to drive a car in Denmark.)
Most parents would just have to wait until their child is over that phase or even better - they could turn up where their child is drinking and join in for a beer to show the child that alcohol comsumption is possible without getting drunk beyound control.
That leaves drug. That is not fixed by attending a school. We are talking a sickness here. That means treatment in a hospital environment.
So in order to cut it short: There would be no critizm if Carlbrook did return to the parents of an unadjustable child after a month and told them that this does not work and the child has to return home.
Also they would be off better if they instead of using escort firms did send people out to a marathon intervension with the child in the childs home, so they by an verbal argumentation could convince the child of the need for a stay in this school. A simple letter from a emotional distant parent on the way to the school is not enough to ensure love and compassion to the child.
I can see that there is room for improvement - even at Carlbrook.
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Carlbrook kids do not necessarily arrive by escort. And, kids are asked to leave if it is not working.
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I work in this industry and meet many parents of troubled teens and I cannot count the amount of times I've heard similar negative experiences from other families. Stay away from this place -- it's bad news.
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When people complain that it's a TBS they say no, it's a college prep school. Then when you point out the academics, or lack thereof, you're told it's a 'progressive', 'work at your own pace' school. If academics are the true and sole reason for Carlbrook, why all the discrepancy about the actual education the kids do or do not receive?
This is the typical spin. Welcomr to "The Industry." This type of language/semantics is what they use to avoid proper oversight - look at HLA and Ivy Ridge. Carlbrook is in the same boat and will eventually (inevitably) be licensed properly or shut down, but these places know this going in and set up their businesses to make as much profit as the market will bear ASAP and fold up their tents when they are legally required to have oversight.
They use a skimming startegy and market penetration to be immediately profitable, and when they're eventually (inevitably) sued, they have no real assets and declare bankruptcy. Then they move to a new area and start the scam over again.
This is just the way it is in this business. I've been around it for a long time and Carlbrook, I assure you, is nothing new. Their staff has bounced around the industry for twenty or more years, going from facility to facility, being shut down or sued for abuse all along the way. It's the same principals just moving around from warehouse to warehouse as legal pressure and the law dictates. They will NEVER comply with the law - they'll just move again.
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If you want to know about carlbrook as a parent, you should tour the school, ask an ed consultant. Obviously it is not for everyone. Honestly you all sound like the group of students who go to carlbrook, hate it, did not get it, fucked around, got kicked out and are now pissing all over the institution online. Go you.
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If you want to know about carlbrook as a parent, you should tour the school, ask an ed consultant.
If you tour the school, you will get the "Marketing demo," not a genuine look at what goes on.
And why would you ask an ed consultant about anything?
That's like asking a pedophile for advice on how to keep young children safe from perverts.
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Obviously it is not for everyone.
Well at least you know it's obvious. :rofl:
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If you want to know about carlbrook as a parent, you should tour the school, ask an ed consultant.
If you tour the school, you will get the "Marketing demo," not a genuine look at what goes on.
And why would you ask an ed consultant about anything?
That's like asking a pedophile for advice on how to keep young children safe from perverts.
Very true on all counts.
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I would just like to say that, despite any awful things that anyone has to say about the Carlbrook School, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN THERE. They may have had kids that went there, or friends with kids that went there- but THEY may not have experienced it THEMSELVES!
I enrolled in Carlbrook in October 2004- The school had been open almost 9 months and I was student #52. The next19 months saved my life. Everything from the close and personal attention from faculty to the amazing relationships that I developed helped me transform from the out-of-control, depressed little girl that I was (at 15) to the sober, responsible, motivated woman that I am now. I highly HIGHLY recommend Carlbrook for kids ages 15-18 who just seem lost in the world. Either they have been hurting themselves, have no social decency, don't listen to their parents, or just don't seem to be happy with anything that is given to them. The "emotional growth" aspect of this school is mainly what I miss the most. Some of the greatest moments of my life are those in the groups, workshops, or at random times when I made a connection with someone. I love Carlbrook and am COMPLETLEY willing to talk to ANYONE who has any questions. Also, please listen to whatever else you hear about Carlbrook very carefully. It is important to hear from the people who know- those who were there and graduated the program............
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yep, sure sounds like a school to me. only at this school, the teachers and faculty are responsible for officially torturing and abusing kids instead of other kids doing it on an ad hoc basis.
this "teacher" is a troll and full of shit.
WHAT IS EVERYONE'S PROBLEM??? IF THIS SCHOOL IS HELPING PEOPLE, WHY QUESTION IT?? I HAPPEN TO HAVE BEEN TO THIS SCHOOL, AND I KNOW THIS TEACHER PERSONALLY...... FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO SPEND YOUR TIME DOING BECAUSE I'M SICK OF HEARING FROM PEOPLE WHO FRANKLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!
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For anyone who was there when I bailed, I do have a really soft spot for all of you, and I'm sorry about how I left. My B.
Sturge
Oh Ben, I miss you and I really wish you had stuck it out!!!
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...... FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO SPEND YOUR TIME DOING BECAUSE I'M SICK OF HEARING FROM PEOPLE WHO FRANKLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!
If you don't like what's being said here, no one is making you stay. It's pretty rude to come onto someone else's message board and start telling them what they can and can't talk about.
AND STOP YELLING AT US!!!!!!
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I highly HIGHLY recommend Carlbrook for kids ages 15-18 who just seem lost in the world. Either they have been hurting themselves, have no social decency, don't listen to their parents, or just don't seem to be happy with anything that is given to them.
Sounds like they spent 19 months training a marketing associate.
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I would just like to say that, despite any awful things that anyone has to say about the Carlbrook School, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN THERE. They may have had kids that went there, or friends with kids that went there- but THEY may not have experienced it THEMSELVES!
This guy has......
Just wanted to throw in my two cents worth here. I know I'm posting at the end of a very...mature...thread, so this may not be read, but I attended Carlbrook through the first four workshops (or LGAT regression/brainwashing sessions, depending on whether or not you're willing to call a spade a spade).
I became so overwhelmed with anxiety due to my failure to internalise the drop-to-my-knees-and-wail-in-misery-for-my-abused-inner-child manner of emotional expression that I decided that the best course of action would be to go under the wire; I was sick of getting belittled and screamed at and betrayed in group "therapy" for my inability to cry in front of a room full of people. I left one morning, to join the Marine Corps. It didn't work, partly because you have to have a highschool diploma to qualify to have your legs blown off for Uncle Sam, partly because one of the staff there intercepted me and gave me some puppy-dog eyes and promised me the world of forgiveness.
A bit more railing and a "program"- in which one is isolated (via a system of communication "bans", breaking of which is met with bans and forced, high-exertion labour for the non-program party and more group "therapy" for the programmee), removed from academia, confined to a desk and forced to churn out a series of written epiphanies about why one is the way one is- later and I decided I'd rather face a tent in the snow and bean-and-rice dinners than get bent over for the rest of my internment at Carlbrook. Handy, really, because the staff had already decided to renege on their promise of not moving back my emancipation date or sending me back to the woods (the typical punishment for leaving the program, though we did receive frequent warnings about the much-worse programs that existed in the real world and how LUCKY we were that our parents sent us to Carlbrook).
To cut a long story short, I definitely felt as if I had been driven to breaking point by that program, despite having been given the cushiest roles and leadership perks that the place had to offer. I'm pretty sure my psyche is still healing from that whole experience. That said, since then I've been in places that made me dream of being at Carlbrook; there was a warm bed, hot and decent food, and plenty of people to get close to. Funny though, cause I never really freaked out anywhere that I didn't have people trying to deconstruct my ego and tamper with my essence as a human.
Anyway, I did get my highschool diploma, and decided I liked my legs more than I liked...well, I don't even LIKE the government, so God knows why I wanted to go fight for it, and now I'm in college in New Zealand. I might be damaged, but I ain't broke.
For anyone who was there when I bailed, I do have a really soft spot for all of you, and I'm sorry about how I left. My B.
Sturge
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So has this guy.....
Dear Mr. Woodbury,
I know you are probably very busy, but I just wanted to take the time to tell you how thankful I am for the type of work you do- it saved my life. My name is Rico Moreno and I am from Phoenix, Arizona. Like many other teenagers that you work with, I was not on a good path, confused, and out of control. My parents started seeing Miriam Bodin in Northern California, and I was sent to the Second Nature Wilderness Program in Utah. After working with Dr. Matt Hoig there, I went to the Carlbrook School in Southern Virginia and graduated this past May 2005. As I said earlier, the eighteen months I spent there saved my life. I just want to say that Carlbrook is a very special place to me, and I hope it keeps running for a long time- I read on your website that Cedu closed down, and I hope that that never will happen to Carlbrook. While I was at Carlbrook I got to work with so many awesome adults such as Tim Brace, Jonathan Gurney, Matthew Lovell, Robert Somers, and so many awesome other people. I just wanted to write you a note because when I visited your website, I can see that you care about so many kids, and I respect what you do a lot. Thank you for your time, and thank you for caring about us teenagers so much.
Sincerely,
Rico A. Moreno
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So you're saying that Mr. Moreno benefitted from the type of "treatment" and "therapy" that is described by Kiwifella? You're an 'end justifies the means' kinda guy, I take it.
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So has this guy.....
Dear Mr. Woodbury,
I know you are probably very busy, but I just wanted to take the time to tell you how thankful I am for the type of work you do- it saved my life. My name is Rico Moreno and I am from Phoenix, Arizona. Like many other teenagers that you work with, I was not on a good path, confused, and out of control. My parents started seeing Miriam Bodin in Northern California, and I was sent to the Second Nature Wilderness Program in Utah. After working with Dr. Matt Hoig there, I went to the Carlbrook School in Southern Virginia and graduated this past May 2005. As I said earlier, the eighteen months I spent there saved my life. I just want to say that Carlbrook is a very special place to me, and I hope it keeps running for a long time- I read on your website that Cedu closed down, and I hope that that never will happen to Carlbrook. While I was at Carlbrook I got to work with so many awesome adults such as Tim Brace, Jonathan Gurney, Matthew Lovell, Robert Somers, and so many awesome other people. I just wanted to write you a note because when I visited your website, I can see that you care about so many kids, and I respect what you do a lot. Thank you for your time, and thank you for caring about us teenagers so much.
Sincerely,
Rico A. Moreno
The connections between all these places is just plain creepy. One gets shut down, another with the same staff opens up in its place. Same thing happened with Straight. They're just learing how to dress it up and make it look nicer, but it's virtually the same shit that was going on 20 years ago.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=45&Sort= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=8001&forum=11&start=45&Sort=)
Search around for RMA, CEDU, Tim Brace, Carlbrook, Aspen and you'll see how incestuous it all is. Sort of like the Catholics. A priest rapes little boys and he gets moved around from parish to parish.
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Yes, we are hearing from people who have been in this program, but who have only been out of this program maybe a few months to a year, so they have very little perspective. I'm seeing dates ranging from 2005 to 2004. Nothing earlier. (And if I start hearing from oldies only after this post, now that I have mentioned it, it will seem suspicious, too.)
haha I find this very funny seeing as how the school only started in 2002 and the first graduating class was in May 2003..... its not strange that people responding are saying they graduated in 2004...... do your research before you start accusing people- your the ignorant one
and to those who doubt EVERYONE who has said positive things about Carlbrook- it REALLY is the kind of thing that you have to experience to understand...... Stop talking like you all know ANYTHING about what it's like......
- Carlbrook Grad '04
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Stop talking like you all know ANYTHING about what it's like......
- Carlbrook Grad '04
Carlbrook Grad, is this anything like what you experienced in Carlbrook?
Kiwifella wrote:
Just wanted to throw in my two cents worth here. I know I'm posting at the end of a very...mature...thread, so this may not be read, but I attended Carlbrook through the first four workshops (or LGAT regression/brainwashing sessions, depending on whether or not you're willing to call a spade a spade).
I became so overwhelmed with anxiety due to my failure to internalise the drop-to-my-knees-and-wail-in-misery-for-my-abused-inner-child manner of emotional expression that I decided that the best course of action would be to go under the wire; I was sick of getting belittled and screamed at and betrayed in group "therapy" for my inability to cry in front of a room full of people. I left one morning, to join the Marine Corps. It didn't work, partly because you have to have a highschool diploma to qualify to have your legs blown off for Uncle Sam, partly because one of the staff there intercepted me and gave me some puppy-dog eyes and promised me the world of forgiveness.
A bit more railing and a "program"- in which one is isolated (via a system of communication "bans", breaking of which is met with bans and forced, high-exertion labour for the non-program party and more group "therapy" for the programmee), removed from academia, confined to a desk and forced to churn out a series of written epiphanies about why one is the way one is- later and I decided I'd rather face a tent in the snow and bean-and-rice dinners than get bent over for the rest of my internment at Carlbrook. Handy, really, because the staff had already decided to renege on their promise of not moving back my emancipation date or sending me back to the woods (the typical punishment for leaving the program, though we did receive frequent warnings about the much-worse programs that existed in the real world and how LUCKY we were that our parents sent us to Carlbrook).
To cut a long story short, I definitely felt as if I had been driven to breaking point by that program, despite having been given the cushiest roles and leadership perks that the place had to offer. I'm pretty sure my psyche is still healing from that whole experience. That said, since then I've been in places that made me dream of being at Carlbrook; there was a warm bed, hot and decent food, and plenty of people to get close to. Funny though, cause I never really freaked out anywhere that I didn't have people trying to deconstruct my ego and tamper with my essence as a human.
Anyway, I did get my highschool diploma, and decided I liked my legs more than I liked...well, I don't even LIKE the government, so God knows why I wanted to go fight for it, and now I'm in college in New Zealand. I might be damaged, but I ain't broke.
For anyone who was there when I bailed, I do have a really soft spot for all of you, and I'm sorry about how I left. My B.
Sturge
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So you're saying that Mr. Moreno benefitted from the type of "treatment" and "therapy" that is described by Kiwifella? You're an 'end justifies the means' kinda guy, I take it.
I Know both "Mr. Moreno" and "Kiwifella" very personally and I find it offensive that you would use their testimonies in any kind of arguement about how Carlbrook is a negative environment. Yes, B.S. (Kiwifella) didn't finish the program, but I happen to have been through a lot with him while we were there, as well has Rico. Stop fighting cuz you don't have any good arguements
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Stop talking like you all know ANYTHING about what it's like......
- Carlbrook Grad '04
Carlbrook Grad, is this anything like what you experienced in Carlbrook?
I just don't understand why you care?? Why are you getting involved? And the reason I care is because Carlbrook was- and still is- a HUGE part of my life and a large reason why I am so happy with myself.... I take personal offense to people bashing it! I think thats pretty understandable!!!
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So you're saying that Mr. Moreno benefitted from the type of "treatment" and "therapy" that is described by Kiwifella? You're an 'end justifies the means' kinda guy, I take it.
I Know both "Mr. Moreno" and "Kiwifella" very personally and I find it offensive that you would use their testimonies in any kind of arguement about how Carlbrook is a negative environment. Yes, B.S. (Kiwifella) didn't finish the program, but I happen to have been through a lot with him while we were there, as well has Rico. Stop fighting cuz you don't have any good arguements
Well, I'm sorry you find it offensive. They posted on a public message board. Am I not allowed to respond and ask questions? Have you ever been on a message board before? That's how they work ya know.
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I just don't understand why you care?? Why are you getting involved? And the reason I care is because Carlbrook was- and still is- a HUGE part of my life and a large reason why I am so happy with myself.... I take personal offense to people bashing it! I think thats pretty understandable!!!
I care because I care about teenagers in general and am concerned about this bogus and dangerous industry. I've been on this board for quite a few years now and I take personal offense to people coming here and telling me what to do or say.
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I care because I care about teenagers in general and am concerned about this bogus and dangerous industry. I've been on this board for quite a few years now and I take personal offense to people coming here and telling me what to do or say.
If you cared about teenagers you would look deeper than the surface of this "dangerous industry" and see that it is very beneficial. Do you have teenagers? Cuz if you don't thats a little creepy...... however, yes of course I respect your opinion by you need to clarify that it is JUST that: your OPINION.... when people look at your words and believe them to be true- thought you have not experienced Carlbrook yourself- it creates a bad vibe around a school that HELPS TEENS!!!! If you cared, then you would think twice about what you say......
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I highly HIGHLY recommend Carlbrook for kids ages 15-18 who just seem lost in the world. Either they have been hurting themselves, have no social decency, don't listen to their parents, or just don't seem to be happy with anything that is given to them.
Sounds like they spent 19 months training a marketing associate.
OK now it has gone from offending something that I hold very dear to me, to personally offending me! Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?? You don't know me and to say that I was "trained" to market Carlbrook is just FUCKED UP. Look at your motivations for posting what you say because you have a very skewed way of looking at the world.
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If you cared about teenagers you would look deeper than the surface of this "dangerous industry" and see that it is very beneficial. Do you have teenagers? Cuz if you don't thats a little creepy...... however, yes of course I respect your opinion by I want you to clarify that it is JUST that: your OPINION.... when people look at your words and believe them to be true- thought you have not experienced Carlbrook yourself- it creates a bad vibe around a school that HELPS TEENS!!!! If you cared, then you would think twice about what you say......
I've thought twice and three and four and five times about what I say. I'm the parent of two grown kids and I went through a teen program when I was a teenager. I'm not just talking out of my ass here darlin'. Yes, these are my opinions, just as what you say is your opinion. You believe it helped you, others believe it's dangerous. Again, that's the whole point of a message board....to discuss issues. If you're not interested in discussing them, why are you here? You can't expect to come on here and say "Carlbrook's great, it saved my life" and no one to question or respond to you.
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I highly HIGHLY recommend Carlbrook for kids ages 15-18 who just seem lost in the world. Either they have been hurting themselves, have no social decency, don't listen to their parents, or just don't seem to be happy with anything that is given to them.
Sounds like they spent 19 months training a marketing associate.
OK now it has gone from offending something that I hold very dear to me, to personally offending me! Am I the only one that sees a problem with this?? You don't know me and to say that I was "trained" to market Carlbrook is just FUCKED UP. Look at your motivations for posting what you say because you have a very skewed way of looking at the world.
To avoid confusion the following posts are mine.
If you don't like what's being said here, no one is making you stay. It's pretty rude to come onto someone else's message board and start telling them what they can and can't talk about.
AND STOP YELLING AT US!!!!!!
This guy has......
Kiwifella wrote:
So you're saying that Mr. Moreno benefitted from the type of "treatment" and "therapy" that is described by Kiwifella? You're an 'end justifies the means' kinda guy, I take it.
The connections between all these places is just plain creepy. One gets shut down, another with the same staff opens up in its place. Same thing happened with Straight. They're just learing how to dress it up and make it look nicer, but it's virtually the same shit that was going on 20 years ago.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=45&Sort= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=8001&forum=11&start=45&Sort=)
Search around for RMA, CEDU, Tim Brace, Carlbrook, Aspen and you'll see how incestuous it all is. Sort of like the Catholics. A priest rapes little boys and he gets moved around from parish to parish.
Carlbrook Grad, is this anything like what you experienced in Carlbrook?
Kiwifella wrote:
Well, I'm sorry you find it offensive. They posted on a public message board. Am I not allowed to respond and ask questions? Have you ever been on a message board before? That's how they work ya know.
I care because I care about teenagers in general and am concerned about this bogus and dangerous industry. I've been on this board for quite a few years now and I take personal offense to people coming here and telling me what to do or say.
I've thought twice and three and four and five times about what I say. I'm the parent of two grown kids and I went through a teen program when I was a teenager. I'm not just talking out of my ass here darlin'. Yes, these are my opinions, just as what you say is your opinion. You believe it helped you, others believe it's dangerous. Again, that's the whole point of a message board....to discuss issues. If you're not interested in discussing them, why are you here? You can't expect to come on here and say "Carlbrook's great, it saved my life" and no one to question or respond to you.
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My son attended for 9 months, but did not finish the program. He left in May 2004 and finished high school at a regular prep boarding school. I had some major disputes with Carlbrook while he was there. He did benefit in some ways, and wilderness actually did him a lot of good (he did two stints in wilderness). I thought some of the Carlbrook staff was excellent and some were terrible.
Karen
Are you by any chance Kiley's mom????
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My son attended for 9 months, but did not finish the program. He left in May 2004 and finished high school at a regular prep boarding school. I had some major disputes with Carlbrook while he was there. He did benefit in some ways, and wilderness actually did him a lot of good (he did two stints in wilderness). I thought some of the Carlbrook staff was excellent and some were terrible.
Karen
Are you by any chance Kiley's mom????
Oh, yes, she is. She has her own thread here on Fornits. She's probably the biggest loser ever to have posted here.
Look in the Brat Camp thread under "KarenInDallas."
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... enindallas (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=11137&highlight=karenindallas)
Quick link to save you some search time. Enjoy reading some of the most embarrassing things anyone has ever said about her family/kids/self. Have fun!
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CBButterfly- Yes, if you read the threads you will see the type of people you are dealing with on Fornits and why it is useless to share positive information about Carlbrook or any other programs. I was personally attacked, tormented by email and IM and absolutely villified for daring to say that there are good programs out there. You should probably go away before you, too, are attacked in this way. These are not people willing to accept an opinion contrary to their own. Rico, Brad and Kiley are doing well.
Please contact me at [email protected] and let me know who you are. (Kiley's Mom)
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CBButterfly- Yes, if you read the threads you will see the type of people you are dealing with on Fornits and why it is useless to share positive information about Carlbrook or any other programs. I was personally attacked, tormented by email and IM and absolutely villified for daring to say that there are good programs out there. You should probably go away before you, too, are attacked in this way. These are not people willing to accept an opinion contrary to their own. Rico, Brad and Kiley are doing well.
Please contact me at [email protected] and let me know who you are. (Kiley's Mom)
Don't forget, Karen, about all of your vicious attacks on children here, your threats, your lies and your attempts to hide your identity while lying away the time... We didn't.
Your legacy has been cemented all over the internet, Karen. Like your favorite TV show says "Karen, you ARE the biggest loser!"
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I did not make any threats. I did not attack "children". Are you a child, DJ? I believe you are in your 40s! Yes, I tried to hide my identity. Who wouldn't? I don't see you revealing yours! I was doing pretty well being anonymous until Barbara Goldman, a former HLA parent, told you who I was because she was mad at me for sharing something 6 months ago on the forum she believed was confidential (although Lon and other sources had the same info). So it wasn't your great sleuthing that caught me, it was another parent.
I responded, in kind, to attacks on me. Immature? Perhaps. I guess in that respect I fit right in here.
You want to talk about all the lies you and others have posted about ME and my family on this site? The libel? Yep, DJ, you know the definition. It is is harmful and untrue, it is libel. The only reason it may not be actionable is because no one takes anything on this site seriously so is not likely to harm me.
I think you are actually the "biggest loser", although you might have to share that title with some others on the forum. If anyone disagrees with you or pisses you off, you go on the attack. Vicious attack.
I only posted to respond to the young lady who knew my son at Carlbrook, not to engage with you crazies again.
Bye.
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I fit right in here ... with you crazies ...
::blushing::
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I
I only posted to respond to the young lady who knew my son at Carlbrook, not to engage with you crazies again.
Bye.
Don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out you psychotic bitch.
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Shouldn't you be on the HLA forum Karen? :lol:
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I did not make any threats. I did not attack "children". Are you a child, DJ? I believe you are in your 40s! Yes, I tried to hide my identity. Who wouldn't? I don't see you revealing yours! I was doing pretty well being anonymous until Barbara Goldman, a former HLA parent, told you who I was because she was mad at me for sharing something 6 months ago on the forum she believed was confidential (although Lon and other sources had the same info). So it wasn't your great sleuthing that caught me, it was another parent.
I responded, in kind, to attacks on me. Immature? Perhaps. I guess in that respect I fit right in here.
You want to talk about all the lies you and others have posted about ME and my family on this site? The libel? Yep, DJ, you know the definition. It is is harmful and untrue, it is libel. The only reason it may not be actionable is because no one takes anything on this site seriously so is not likely to harm me.
I think you are actually the "biggest loser", although you might have to share that title with some others on the forum. If anyone disagrees with you or pisses you off, you go on the attack. Vicious attack.
I only posted to respond to the young lady who knew my son at Carlbrook, not to engage with you crazies again.
Bye.
I'm not sure if you can even tell when you're lying, Karen. You do it so much.
Should I point out the thread where you were identified nearly two years ago, in writing, on this site, or do you still want to go with "Barbara outed me six months ago"?
Karen, Karen, Karen. You tell so many lies you can't keep 'em straight! :rofl:
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My sister has been at Carlbrook since this September. She turned 18 yesterday and was ready to sign her self out, but my parents told her they wouldn't support her financially if she chose to leave. So she chose to stay. I think this school is what she needs to turn her life back around. Ive come to realize that this whole process wont be easy, but I know it will all be worth it in the end!
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My sister has been at Carlbrook since this September. She turned 18 yesterday and was ready to sign her self out, but my parents told her they wouldn't support her financially if she chose to leave. So she chose to stay. I think this school is what she needs to turn her life back around. Ive come to realize that this whole process wont be easy, but I know it will all be worth it in the end!
Right, its hard, and because its hard its... necessary? Or just trying to minimize the abusiveness inherant in any BM program?
Yes, coersion makes it essential! Its easier to believe its some "hard to do thing that must be done" than realize the made up parents in this made up story are actually rat bastards for even thinking something like that, you stupid programmie.
[troll5]
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Yes, hard because it IS necessary. Because I was once ignorant as well and had no trust in the program until I actually took the time to visit the school and find out more about it. I had a wonderful lunch with 5 current students randomly selected and they told me everything I needed to know, the truth. They all made some very poor choices, that could have cost them their life. And their parents who love and care for them, saw this distructive behavior and knew that something must be done, for the good of their child, to help them for the rest of their life. Sure, you can go and believe all the rumors you want, but until you've looked in to it a little bit more and honestly know what you're talking about, you might want to keep from letting your suppressed anger out on this forum.
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[troll3]
Is that a copypasta troll? I don't think there's one original thought in that. We've heard it all before.
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My sister has been at Carlbrook since this September. She turned 18 yesterday and was ready to sign her self out, but my parents told her they wouldn't support her financially if she chose to leave. So she chose to stay. I think this school is what she needs to turn her life back around. Ive come to realize that this whole process wont be easy, but I know it will all be worth it in the end!
[troll5]
Although the above does happen. a lot. My guess is Carlbrook convinced the parents not to take the kid back. This was standard fare at Benchmark. If you're real. My advice is this: Your sister is going to "need" program until your parents run out of money. If you want to go to college eventually, my advice is to convince your parents to stop wasting their money and give her a second chance at home.
Yes, hard because it IS necessary. Because I was once ignorant as well and had no trust in the program until I actually took the time to visit the school and find out more about it. I had a wonderful lunch with 5 current students randomly selected and they told me everything I needed to know, the truth. They all made some very poor choices, that could have cost them their life. And their parents who love and care for them, saw this distructive behavior and knew that something must be done, for the good of their child, to help them for the rest of their life. Sure, you can go and believe all the rumors you want, but until you've looked in to it a little bit more and honestly know what you're talking about, you might want to keep from letting your suppressed anger out on this forum.
[troll1]
Ok. Now i'm pretty sure you're full of it.
But even if you're not, you were almost guaranteed a positive response. If you interview 5 randomly selected students together, they are all going to keep silent. What if one is a snitch (very likely). Now if you had interviewed five randomly selected students individually, privately, I can almost guarantee you would have gotten a different response. You would also have been able to compare their allegations for similarities.
Here's why students can't be trusted to give honest assessments if they are not alone. (http://http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/abuse.html#dirtLists)
I wouldn't be surprised if Carlbrook used a similar method to keep their students in line. It's similar to the soviet "secret police" system (where everybody is a potential snitch, and snitches are rewarded hansomly).
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Carlbrook was pretty consistent in getting kids out after the 14 or 15 months of the "program". They liked to graduate the peer groups together. Of course, if a kid "messed up" (in their eyes) the kid would drop back a peer group or be delayed for other reasons. Generally, they did get the kids out in 14-15 months. There was no pre-payment. It was monthly.
When we visited we got to talk to kids individually. However, no kids got to talk to parents who weren't "with the program". My son was forbidden to talk to touring parents AND new students and ALL females.
If a kid really didn't want to be there and the normal efforts to get them back in line failed, they had to go back to wilderness until they decided Carlbrook wasn't so bad after all.
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they had to go back to wilderness until they decided Carlbrook wasn't so bad after all.
That's blackmail not a decision.
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Notice all the program language in Liney and Charlys posts. Everything the kids do is a "choice". The girl who wants to leave but can't becuase she's thousands of miles away from her social network with no money, it's a choice. The kids who get stuck in month long death marches with counselors four years their elder named "soaring eagle", well it's their choice to be there, since the one and only alternative is presented. This is program speak. These are not choices. Not even close. This kind of language stands out around here like a sore thumb. This ain't struggling teens.
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Hey. This isn't me defending the program. This is me stating what was going on. Just facts. I realize it is couched in "program speak" but that's the way it was presented. Not my endorsement.
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Notice all the program language in Liney and Charlys posts. Everything the kids do is a "choice". The girl who wants to leave but can't becuase she's thousands of miles away from her social network with no money, it's a choice. The kids who get stuck in month long death marches with counselors four years their elder named "soaring eagle", well it's their choice to be there, since the one and only alternative is presented. This is program speak. These are not choices. Not even close. This kind of language stands out around here like a sore thumb. This ain't struggling teens.
Well said, my friend.
The only choice a program kid gets to make is whether to pretend to work the program or actually do it and pretend it's working.
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Its hard because its necessary and its necessary because its hard!
The more you suffer, the more chances you have to win! :rofl:
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However, no kids got to talk to parents who weren't "with the program".
There you have it folks. They let the parents randomly select from a population of brainwashed/scared-shitless teens. They keep the rest locked up in the back.
Typical Terezin (http://http://photo.net/travel/bp/terezin) bullshit.
Charley. Do you think your opinion of Carlbrook might have been different if the tour had been uncensored? If your son wasn't "with the program" how many others do you think there were? Where I was, it was the majority.
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I talked to my son about the program tonight and asked him about some of the things psy raised. First of all, my son is very objective. He is not a program kid and had little good to say about Carlbrook when he came out- after 9 months(7 weeks of which was spent back in wilderness). He said that kids were encouraged to snitch- in some cases kids felt empowered by the ability to rat out others and advance themselves in the program. He, personally, refused to do this and suffered consequences as a result. He said the kids who are successful post-program did NOT have substance abuse problems. They had issues such as anger, serious conflict with parents and other adults, video game addiction/no friends issues or depression due to family or other emotional issues. He said he can't even count the number of kids who have bombed out of college or returned to serious substance abuse. However, a number of kids, including himself, are doing really well at top colleges. NONE of these kids had substance issues of any significance.
He said Tim Brace was absolutely not abusive in any manner and was one of the most tame members of the entire staff. He has a lot of respect for Grant Price, even though he was an ass much of the time. He thinks Grant has an accurate view of what the program is really all about, but he (Grant) thinks it is the best alternative for the kids in it. Glenn Bender is psycho and worthless. I won't comment on others here.
He does not think kids were forced to make up abuse or trauma just to get through the workshops and group sessions. He said there was an instance of someone unilaterally making up something about his/her family from the beginning in order to get attention. It created a serious mess and he/she finally admitted it wasn't true.
He said most kids didn't buy into any of the therapeutic work. Some faked it and then started to buy into it (sort of a "fake it till you make it" thing like AA). Some really did buy into it. Some, like my son, resisted it and took what they needed and left the rest.
My son said the benefit for him was getting a chance to just have time out, get to read a lot and think about his future. He said he would have been fine coming home after wilderness if he had educational options. He says sending him to wilderness was absolutely the right thing and that the therapy in wilderness was much more effective than the therapy at Carlbrook. He said wilderness was our only choice with him at the time. He said after wilderness we should have found a program where he lived in a small group and attended a local school (I think they have some of these situations in Utah, etc.).
Psy- I don't think it would have changed our mind even if we had been able to talk to other disgruntled kids. The school and staff make a tremendous impression and it truly seemed like the best choice for our son. He doesn't think Oakley would have been any different.
So-I have this kid with me for another couple of days if you have any questions. He has been out 2 1/2 years now and is in touch with a lot of other post-program kids.
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I talked to my son about the program tonight and asked him about some of the things psy raised. First of all, my son is very objective. He is not a program kid and had little good to say about Carlbrook when he came out- after 9 months(7 weeks of which was spent back in wilderness). He said that kids were encouraged to snitch- in some cases kids felt empowered by the ability to rat out others and advance themselves in the program.
Yup. That's the system allright. Now kids. Does that teach ethical behavior?
He, personally, refused to do this and suffered consequences as a result. He said the kids who are successful post-program did NOT have substance abuse problems. They had issues such as anger, serious conflict with parents and other adults, video game addiction
PFFT.. video game addiction... :rofl:
I can see it now:
Kid A: so what were are you here for
Kid B: shootin heroin
Kid C: video games. they're almost as bad.
/no friends issues or depression due to family or other emotional issues. He said he can't even count the number of kids who have bombed out of college or returned to serious substance abuse. However, a number of kids, including himself, are doing really well at top colleges. NONE of these kids had substance issues of any significance.
He said Tim Brace was absolutely not abusive in any manner and was one of the most tame members of the entire staff. He has a lot of respect for Grant Price, even though he was an ass much of the time. He thinks Grant has an accurate view of what the program is really all about, but he (Grant) thinks it is the best alternative for the kids in it. Glenn Bender is psycho and worthless. I won't comment on others here.
He does not think kids were forced to make up abuse or trauma just to get through the workshops and group sessions.
Now you're gettin to the "neety greety".
He said there was an instance of someone unilaterally making up something about his/her family from the beginning in order to get attention. It created a serious mess and he/she finally admitted it wasn't true.
He said most kids didn't buy into any of the therapeutic work. Some faked it and then started to buy into it (sort of a "fake it till you make it" thing like AA).
And what if you didn't have a substance problem? What if you didn't need fixing. Does Carlbrook every deny kids admission? There are "no reason"ers in programs.
Some really did buy into it. Some, like my son, resisted it and took what they needed and left the rest.
My son said the benefit for him was getting a chance to just have time out, get to read a lot and think about his future. He said he would have been fine coming home after wilderness if he had educational options. He says sending him to wilderness was absolutely the right thing and that the therapy in wilderness was much more effective than the therapy at Carlbrook.
It depends on the program. There might be a few "ok" programs out there, but it's usually not worth the risk. Where did he go to wilderness?
He said wilderness was our only choice with him at the time. He said after wilderness we should have found a program where he lived in a small group and attended a local school (I think they have some of these situations in Utah, etc.).
avoid Utah like the plague. Oh don't tell me the wilderness program was in Utah... :roll: Ok people... let's keep calm here.
Psy- I don't think it would have changed our mind even if we had been able to talk to other disgruntled kids. The school and staff make a tremendous impression and it truly seemed like the best choice for our son. He doesn't think Oakley would have been any different.
So-I have this kid with me for another couple of days if you have any questions. He has been out 2 1/2 years now and is in touch with a lot of other post-program kids.
Sure.
Ask him if he was ever told to remember something traumatic in a strange closed-eye exercise (or imagine he was in the situation).
If yes to the above, Ask him what happened after that (directly)
Ask him if he liked the workshops / propheets. (probably yes.. for now)
Ask him if Tim Brace was the facilitator in the workshops / propheets.
Ask him if he ever felt pressured to disclose something he wasn't comfortable with.
Ask him what would happened if kids complained to parents.
Ask him if he felt parents were kept in the dark.
If so, how?
Ask him if he ever lost hope.
Ask him if others did.
Ask him if he feels like he was changed into a "new person" or discovered his "real self". (or if this happened in wilderness).
Ask him if he felt like he was being toyed with.
Ask him if he feels the program was there to make money, or to help kids.
Ask him if he feels those "video game addict" kids truly needed to be there.
Ask him if he feels like program would never have let him graduate, even if he had followed all the rules.
Ask him how many graduations he saw.
Ask him if there were any runaways.
..
Thanks. If i think of any more i'll pm/email you.
Merry Christmas.
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He fell asleep- we'll answer those tomorrow.
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It's still quackery that treats 'video game addiction'... :roll:
That really looks to me like they just want to suck anyone in they can, to their little one size fits all hunk of debunked potentially abusive nonsense called 'emotional growth' and make money off of them!
I'm glad your son is ok and able to remain objective, and... I guess it figures that kids with nothing wrong to begin with did fine afterwads :wink: but I think we all know why they're suceeding right now...
At any rate, Merry Christmas.
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Happy xmas folks........
I just found this thread and have not read through everything, so here goes.... I'm really not surprized too hear about kids who:- Are doing well
- Feel that, despite any ill treatment, it was for the best
Here's my reasoning, If a kid is not "with" the program they suffer a consequence(real bad shit). When a kid "is with" the program they gain something(level, privilege)... Basic BM.
Now considering the fact that what happens in most bootcamps(stress positions, pain compliance, etc) and wilderness camps(forced marches and such) would be illegal if done by the State to say prisoners, I would think that it's fair to say that what these kids go through must be pretty traumatic.
I'm going somewhere with this so keep reading please... What does the program demand of the student for that student to avoid the bad stuff and get the good stuff?........
In most of the programs I know about it's usually something like this:
- I've made bad choices
- I've hurt my family
- I've hurt my self
- All of my problems(at home, at school, in the program, etc) are because of my bad choices
- The program is my only hope
- and it's saving me
Ok that's^^^ not therapy.... When you go to therapy you(and your licensed therapist) try to find out what is causing your behavior..... More on this later
The question from the convinced parent maybe "how could my son feel that this was all for the best, and hold some of his handle... counselors in such high esteem if he was abused?!?!
Easy, look at the battered woman syndrome... BWS happens in 3 stages:
- Tension - "woman you're doing that thing that pisses me off"
- Eruption -
[li] The Honeymoon - "You know, I only do this because I love you so much"
The following is the characteristics of a battered woman:
1. The woman believes that the violence was her fault.
2. The woman has an inability to place the responsibility for the violence elsewhere.
3. The woman fears for her life and/or her children's lives.
4. The woman has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient.
Sorry for the BWS 101..... This model relates to the "teen-help" business in a very disturbing way.
- Number 1 on the BWS quote correlates to the therapeutic approach in most facilities:
- It's your fault by default The goal in most facilites is to teach that your pAiN is because of your bAd choices. This is not working on your kids problems because the question "why do you behave this way" is never asked or only asked after they have instilled self blame[/u], not to be confused with self responsibility
- Number 2 on the BWS correlates, again, to the non-therapeutic approach of most facilities:
- Say thats it's all your fault or face the consequences This is the Bat Signal of untrained and unqualified to treat your child. This is bully therapy that insures that, by the end of "treatment", the student will see it the way the "therapist" does, or "we'll need to keep him longer due to lack of progress"
- Number 3 & 4 is what you ultimately get when you give strangers total control over your children
- We will use any means to break you and the eyes of your peers belong to us Forced marches, Stress positions, Forced Labor, Forced Exercise to the point of misery.. The Program controls when you eat, sleep, and shit.. Do anything to be considered not being with the program and you'd have ten kids trying to capitalize on your transgression just to gain the program's favor, and hopefully their freedom.
He said that kids were encouraged to snitch- in some cases kids felt empowered by the ability to rat out others and advance themselves in the program
He, personally, refused to do this and suffered consequences as a result
They may not fear death, but their life is controlled by strangers, untrained one's who are trying to break them.... omnipresent and omniscient? Yes..
[/li][/li][/list][/list]
Where there's a stick you will find a carrot, "the levels"... The Honeymoon phase I referred to earlier.. This is necessary because it means that the program gave them something. So it goes from you choices BaD! Make world angry :flame: to Program choices GoOd ::bigsmilebounce::
Levels=Positive reinforcement for taking the abuse, "Beat up wife... I love you"
I have to go but I will address why Programs use this model and why they will take in kids with.....
Drug habits-Game habits-Tourette Syndrome-Depression(can you spell suicide.... WWASPS, we cure depression ::bangin:: :cry: )-Not fucked up?!? We'll correct that habits-And STDs ::puke::
See ya in a few....
Forgot to add Why I'm not surprised to hear that some kids are doing great after being in abusive programs..... It's because their Teens... i.e Not finished growing yet.
I changed alot between the ages of 12 and 20.. Believe it or not most kids will grow-up and became Barack Obamas, for even he smoked a joint or two
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Ask him if he was ever told to remember something traumatic in a strange closed-eye exercise (or imagine he was in the situation). No
If yes to the above, Ask him what happened after that (directly)
Ask him if he liked the workshops / propheets. (probably yes.. for now) Not really. They were OK. (he only did the first 2)
Ask him if Tim Brace was the facilitator in the workshops / propheets. No. Each one had a different facilitator.
Ask him if he ever felt pressured to disclose something he wasn't comfortable with. Yes.
Ask him what would happened if kids complained to parents. You got in trouble for "manipulating".
Ask him if he felt parents were kept in the dark. Yes
If so, how? no details
Ask him if he ever lost hope. Uh, I guess.
Ask him if others did. I guess.
Ask him if he feels like he was changed into a "new person" or discovered his "real self". (or if this happened in wilderness).
Ask him if he felt like he was being toyed with. at times
Ask him if he feels the program was there to make money, or to help kids. The founders really believed their model of program was the best way to help kids. they weren't making much money. There is a lot of overhead.
Ask him if he feels those "video game addict" kids truly needed to be there. Not as much, but they could be pretty screwed up.
Ask him if he feels like program would never have let him graduate, even if he had followed all the rules. Not sure. I wasn't a big favorite.
Ask him how many graduations he saw. 3 groups. (August, December, May)
Ask him if there were any runaways. 2 kids from my group ran away early on. They went to wilderness after getting caught and came back to Carlbrook and graduated.
..
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@charley
I noticed he didn't answer one question:
Ask him if he feels like he was changed into a "new person" or discovered his "real self". (or if this happened in wilderness).
That one i was actually really looking forward to him answering. If it's not too late, and he feels comfortable with it, I would be quite curious as to what he thinks.
Oh. just for shits. as a little exercise:
Ask him if he can write about what happened in those workshops in detail (not for fornits, or me, or you, or anybody, but for himself alone). It's just a little suggestion as an "exercise". Why? because i am curious to see if he can or not.
I think your son may be interested in what he discovers in the process of attempting to write about those things in detail. It sounds stupid, but tell him to humor me and try it. He'll probably understand why I asked soon after he starts. My guess is, if he's anything like me, it will spark a lot of questions on his part.
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One time I talked to a WWASPS graduate kid on MSN... he hit me up.
When I told him I know all about wwasps seminars he kind of freaked out.
:(
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Sorry- I forgot to put the answer. It was a big NO.
I'll ask him if he'll write about the workshops, but he's off on a trip and we're not with him right now. Stay tuned.
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One idea that interests me is one of a kid not buying in to the programme or faking it to make it. Putting aside for a moment whether or not programmes are abusive etc- if a kid is not buying in, trying etc a therapy which they did not choose, why would the school and the parent see the merit in making the kid continue or making it a reward punishment situation? Eg if you dont do it we will send you to a wilderness program till you do. If the goal is to make someone better and what is being done is not working after some time then what makes a parent continue?
Oz Girl
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One time I talked to a WWASPS graduate kid on MSN... he hit me up.
When I told him I know all about wwasps seminars he kind of freaked out.
:(
Hey its supposed to be a big secret, you know. :D
Better start looking over your shoulder for Gilcrease
(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/david_approve.jpg)
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One idea that interests me is one of a kid not buying in to the programme or faking it to make it. Putting aside for a moment whether or not programmes are abusive etc- if a kid is not buying in, trying etc a therapy which they did not choose, why would the school and the parent see the merit in making the kid continue or making it a reward punishment situation? Eg if you dont do it we will send you to a wilderness program till you do. If the goal is to make someone better and what is being done is not working after some time then what makes a parent continue?
Oz Girl
Well like I said thats not therapy, nor does it have any meaningful positive effects. The improvement of a kids behavior after being in these facilities is mostly from growing up and not being in the same environment in my opinion. It seems like parents favor Bully therapy over good therapy because it's more about getting the kid to comply as opposed to getting to the root of a child's behavior, a path that requires patience. Bully therapy requires little to no patience from the parent. I think the lack of patience amongst desperate parents is supported by what most parent say about more traditional therapy "I've tried counseling but it was ineffective"... Did it not work or did it not work fast enough? When I was receiving counseling for clinical depression I wasn't seeing any improvement. It took me 5 years before I start to see results.
I'm not saying that parents who choose placement in residential programs are bad people, I'm just saying that desperation causes parents to lose their patience and seek out those that promise "change through cutting edgy therapy". Kids that claim to have improved because of the program are basically giving credit to the program when that credit actually belongs to growing up. The Program is constantly driving this point home.... The "we're saving you" point.
Whats so dangerous about crediting the Program for the change in a kid's behavior is that it justifies "abuse in the name of treatment" in the eyes of the parent and the child. Parents must realize that "Tough-love" programs sell compliance, not therapy. Kids need to understand that the harsh wilderness/boot-camp experience was not necessary for them to change their behavior. In a news article on Thayer a girl said that she was forced to eat her own vomit but thought that, in the end, it was all for the better. Her statement proves my point that, even in cases of extreme abuse, kids are willing to accept "abuse in the name of treatment" as necessary. The attitude that harsh programs(programs like what Charly described, not Thayer) are ok is a slippery slope because it recedes the line of what we will and won't accept, allowing programs to get worse yet still have parental(and child) approval
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This post is me finishing up my previous post(8 posts up)........
The reason why Programs use the Battered Woman Syndrome(BWS) or thought-reform model and accept kids with issues like depression, behaviors such as game-addition, behavior caused by parental or sexual abuse, homosexuality, and eating disorders is simple... Money.. Programs make money by enrolling as many kids as possible and keeping them as long as possible. Hiring educated counselors and staff cost money, money that would come out of the programs profit so they don't hire educated, qualified professionals. "Tough-love" therapy is the "enzyte" of options offered to parents with troubled teens. "Tough-love" therapy promises the results that the more traditional therapies will not. However "Tough-love" therapy is a silver bullet made out of foil paper, it makes claims that it can't live up to.
The "supporting of the program" as a requirement to succeed in the program is necessary for the program to appear as though it's affective in lieu of objective evidence supporting that claim. Most professionals believe that the Tough-love approach is ineffective and counter intuitive to it's stated goal of improving the behavior of a child, and even makes bad behavior worse. Despite this fact, desperate parents are willing to accept the frivolous claims offered by "Tough-love" programs.
Children also believe that these programs where necessary for them to change their behavior, partially because believing this is part of the program and because many kids do get better. However kids doing well post-program is somewhat misleading. Most kids would be doing fine whether they were in a program, or not, because kids grow up. The change that comes with maturity is great and can make bad kids into upstanding adults. I'm sure most parents who send their kids off to "Tough-love" programs can look back and see a radical change in their life during the teen years and again once they became parents. The teen-help industry does not acknowledge this fact and society peddles the fallacy that kids today are the worst generation of all time. According to Szalavitz Statistics show today's teen is less likely to have unsafe sex or experiment with alcohol and most drugs than teens 20 years ago
LINK (http://http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:yRvbVmI17s4J:www.thestarpress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article%3FAID%3D/20061022/NEWS01/610220321+tough+love+programs+don%27t+work+Muncie+Starr+Press&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a)
However parents still believe that their "problem child" is headed towards ruin and, in ever increasing numbers, ship their children(and money) off to "Tough-love" camps to save them from a paper tiger.
It's true that some kids do need therapy and are headed towards ruin, but boot-camps and wilderness programs don't offer real therapy. This is evident in the fact that they claim to be able to fix just about anything and hire untrained staff, in most cases, the owners being untrained themselves. True therapy asks why, "Tough-love" programs say "you will obey or else". Well that sums up my 2 cents... I hope that more parents will act, not out of desperation, but out of factually based truths. Your child may need help but anyone offering the magic answer is not the answer to your child's behavior...
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One idea that interests me is one of a kid not buying in to the programme or faking it to make it. Putting aside for a moment whether or not programmes are abusive etc- if a kid is not buying in, trying etc a therapy which they did not choose, why would the school and the parent see the merit in making the kid continue or making it a reward punishment situation? Eg if you dont do it we will send you to a wilderness program till you do. If the goal is to make someone better and what is being done is not working after some time then what makes a parent continue?
Oz Girl
The obvious for the program... Money.
Programs use the kid's confessions coupled with 'not working the program' to impress upon the parent that their kid is far worse off than they (parents) expected, to reinforce the notion that their kid really needs the treatment they offer, and because they are particularly 'resistent', it may take longer, and possibly several stints in wilderness.
When you're using a shock device to train a dog, you don't stop if they're resistent, you up the voltage. Everyone has their breaking point. They aren't addressing any issues the kid has that might benefit from ethical counseling, they are about breaking the will and creating actors. If humiliation doesn't work, restrictions. If restrictions doesn't work, more intense deprivation in wilderness. If wilderness doesn't work, more wilderness.
It appears to 'work' for some, imo, because they were half conditioned when they arrived. Those who weren't and are highly resistent are as risk for serious injury or death.
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However kids doing well post-program is somewhat misleading. Most kids would be doing fine whether they were in a program, or not, because kids grow up. The change that comes with maturity is great and can make bad kids into upstanding adults.
The argument has been made here for years, that the positive results attributed to programs most often have to do with maturity than any sort of therapeutic effect. Secondly, they learn to 'act' the way the program/their parents desire in order to avoid future placements.
What I have noticed recently is that program supporters have embraced that and made it okay... at least they were in a safe place while they matured a bit, without having analyzed whether or not it was indeed a 'safe' place. If the means justify the end.
Without the hard data, lack of efficacy will not definitively be shown. Until then, parents will continue to be duped into believing their kid is having some kind of therapeutic transformation, best case. Worse case, $100,000+ surrogate parenting service.
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How does anyone here feel about totally out of control teens joining the army?
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As long as it is their decision to do so super
Oz Girl
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right.....the reason I asked is ...... do you know how many kids commit suicide while in the army? the degree of bullying? The break em down and build em up attitude that exists?
recently a young man lost his life because he didn't obey an order in quite the right way, he was made to run in searing heat with a weighted back pack with no water as a punishment
ring any bells?
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Thats all the army IS for the infantry, more or less. The glorified hazing that is bootcamp is just a regressional period to make them take orders better under stress because if combat troops don't, well, a lot of people die and the commanders can't exactly do their jobs.
Plus the whole 'operating under stress' stuff blah blah blah.
The Army is not a 'fix it' for anything. You should see the statistics for what guys do after being discharged... if anything they'd grow up while in the army, but the army won't grow them up.
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You'd be surprised how many parents force their kids into the army here, we don't have programs, so tjhey send them off to the army to fix them, the only differences are between boot camps and the army are
1) you get paid
2) parenst dont have to pay for their kid being there
It's every bit as bad as sending your kid to a prgram, heh, "send them to the army, it'll make a man out of them"
No it won't, it'll make them suicidal or give them long term PTSD
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Send them to the army and they'll make them a soldier, or discharge them if they're a totally hopeless case.
Either way, if there is any problem the most that will be done is it will be covered up until they're discharged. The army is the freaking army its not some sort of a therapy center with a rifle range!!!
The only people who SHOULD get into the army are otherwise mentally and physically healthy or able to GET physically healthy. Mental problems and combat do not mix...
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Should being the key word
as my above post
But then sending someone who is mentally ill to a program to get fixed is just as barmy.....
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Except in the army they have guns and can frag a summabitch who hurts them :rofl:
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Send em to the french foreign legion. :evil:
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A few comments- just have a minute right now.
Deborah- I agree with some of what you are saying, but have to disagree with the concept that ALL programs have the main goal of making money. I know for a fact that both programs my son was in do not provide much money for the principals. They are making a living, but not raking it in. The people I met truly believed they had a program model that would help many kids (not all). I'm not saying this is true, but money was not the motivator.
Secondly, the wilderness program with which I am most familiar (have spent time in the field myself twice and have talked to past/present staff and teens) has tons of safeguards and there is an extremely low chance of harm. My son really took a close look at it when he went back the second time (willingly) and really believes this particular program customizes the treatment plans. I know they did in my son's case.
As a parent, I don't regret spending the money for my son to be someplace where he had a chance to mature. It worked in his case, and he wasn't abused. I agree with you that we were lucky and that there is a strong possibility for abuse to occur in these programs. They DO try to break the kids down. I agree with this process to a certain extent. It IS what happens in the military academies and in other parts of society. It is not necessarily a bad thing.
After talking to my son, I feel Carlbrook was too "one size fits all". That may be the nature of the beast, and is a real flaw. I guess that is what leads parents and kids to get sideways with the administration. ALL of our kids are "exceptions" and all are unique. While there are some common traits, every kid is different and the therapeutic process should be different. To be fair, they try to do this to an extent, but the staffing is not such that it can really be done effectively. They come up with a plan, and it just sort of falls apart. These kids demand a lot of time and attention (and so do the parents) and the staff really burns out.
Re: faking it until you make it. First of all, most of the parents don't know the kid is faking it and neither do the staff. Sometimes you know, but not usually. My kid went through a phase where he was a model student on the surface, except he got busted after a month or so of this outward perfection for having a relationship with a girl.
Secondly, as a parent, you feel you have no other option. If you trust the program and the therapist (which we did for much of the time), you ride it out. In our case, our son wanted certain educational and athletic opportunities, and while it seems a little circuitous, the route he took (even though it included Carlbrook) got him there.
Psy- Carlbrook has good relationships with Admissions Directors at a number of colleges and prep schools, and their placement record is great. I hate that you lost out on some opportunities due to Benchmark, but it sounds like you are in a good place now anyway.
Re: Video game addiction. It seems silly, and these kids aren't stealing cars and selling drugs, but they can exhibit some really frightening behaviors and do some destructive things. They wind up living in a totally solitary world and cut themselves totally off from society. Is a teen program the answer? I don't know. I know these kids tend to do well after program. It is sort of a forced socialization process (the program).
Later....
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No offence but you're kind of regurgitating the same old boilerplate. Unless there is an actual diagnosis you can't just say "they're displaying frightening behavior" and throw them into some program/tbs/rtc/lmnop, that is called "quackery" and "bullshit".
Furthermore, nobody here has ever denied there are plenty of 'true believers' who don't want or make money, its the people at the TOP.
Also, just what therapy does 'wilderness' provide?
I'm still waiting on any proof of any good done by any program, and so are a lot of other people...
But before I go, one last thing
They DO try to break the kids down. I agree with this process to a certain extent. It IS what happens in the military academies and in other parts of society. It is not necessarily a bad thing.
Says who, YOU? The programs?
When you get a Ph.D by your name and can somehow carry more weight than all the psychologists who have ALREADY spoken out against this kind of toughlove nonsense, then you can say that. As it stands now, you most certainly can not. It is NOT a good thing, its a pathological effect, and this has been studied pretty extensively, and it is also not something recent.
LGATs got debunked decades ago... and now anyone can find out almost anything known to man by typing it into "google", so ignorance is not an excuse anymore.
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@Charly: it was me who brought up the money(:EDIT:My bad Deb I saw just saw were you brought it up), and no I was not talking about the staff. Programs hire unqualified people because they don't have to pay them what they would a professional. The money bags are the owners/founders.
Also breaking a person down may happen in the military, but the military ain't therapy. In fact you have to meet certain psychological requirements, which can be quite strenuous, to enter the military. The military is not for people with mental health issues. If you take a person suffering from depression, OCD, eating disorders, bipolar disorder, or any other mental health issue and place them in the stressful and punitive environment of a boot-camp or wilderness program for treatment you put them at great risk. People with mental health issues can not just change their behavior because you place them in a highly stressful environment. The stressful environment of wilderness and boot-camp programs is the worst place for them because the mentally ill don't do well under stress, that's why they can't join the army.
Now for kids with behavioral problems, not linked to a mental health condition, a boot-camp will only take them out of there environment. However when they return home if the home environment is unchanged the same behavior will start back up again. Thats because behaviors are dependent on ones environment, behavior is reactionary in nature. Like I stated in my last post, therapy not focused on the why is not therapy. The notion that "your bad choices is the reason for your problems" is blind in one eye. True you can control what you choose, but the question is not can you it's why do you choose the choices you choose. Taking the punitive approach to behavior problems will always cause the why to be neglected or relegated to second fiddle in contrast to the behavior.
One thing I hear quiet often from program supporters is "he/she is doing good now, so the program must have helped". Well, kids doing well post-program is not the measuring stick one should use to measure whether or not a program is abusive. Rape survivors can do well... Child abuse survivors can do well... People can do well after having an abusive experience and like me and others have said growing up changes behavior without a doubt.
Charly, you made an interesting statement about your intentions for sending your son to a wilderness(?) program:As a parent, I don't regret spending the money for my son to be someplace where he had a chance to mature
I can't knock you for that statement, as it takes alot for a parent to admit that they could not provide the proper environment for their child. I have some questions regarding the environment you felt he could not mature in, but I want to make it clear that in my opinion there's no reason to send a child to a punitive environment for maturing. Boarding schools do exist that have, trained and qualified teachers, an academic focus, and seek to build up the child, not break them down.
My questions:- What specifically was the problem at home to give you the impression that your son needed the punitive environment of a wilderness camp, or boot-camp, in order for him to mature?
- What actions did you take to change your environment before coming to the conclusion that he needed to be sent away?
- How long did it take for you to realize that you needed to change your environment and how long did you attempt to change your environment before sending him off?
- After you sent him away did you continue trying to change your environment so that he could come back home without facing the same conditions that prompted his behavior?
- Why was it necessary to send him back to a/the program?
- How would you feel if you had to experience your teen years in a punitive environment such as a boot-camp or wilderness program?
- What was the age of your son we he went into the program/s and what was his age after leaving the program/s for good?
- After the program/s did he live with you?
Charly, I really want to thank you for posting here. You post here knowing that most of us will feel that you made at best a mistake and at worst condone child abuse in the name of treatment, and while I disagree with you I do appreciate you for being willing to discuss this.
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hanzomon4- You don't know my history. :) My family's story is all over this forum- in various interpretations. I readily admit that we lost control of our son and he could not remain in the home environment due to a combination of our parenting and his own "wiring". I won't go into the whole story here, but would be glad to respond to PM if you want.
Boarding schools- Our son attended before and after program. He was kicked out of one pre-program, which is part of what led to the need for him to go to wilderness and then a TBS. He was in program for a year and then finished high school at an excellent prep boarding school and is now in college. I do not claim the program "worked". I claim that our son's year away worked in his specific situation.
Our son spent 9 weeks in wilderness and 9 months at Carlbrook (including 7 weeks back in wilderness). He did not finish the Carlbrook program. He lived at home for a summer and then went off to boarding school (his choice for academics and athletics) to finish high school. He is very independent and had chosen to go to boarding school at 15 as a high school freshman As I said above, he completely agrees with our decision to send him to wilderness. (This is him speaking 2 1/2 years post-program.) At the time, he was furious. He does not agree that Carlbrook was the right "next step" although he understands we didn't know of any alternatives. He also understands that going to Carlbrook allowed him to get where he is today- at an Ivy League college as a DI athlete. This is where he wanted to be. My husband and I are willing to pay for whatever schools our kids want to attend as long as they take advantage of what the schools offer.
Yes, we did everything possible to avoid sending our son to a therapeutic program. We looked into every possible educational alternative and tried every kind of counseling. He was 16 1/2 when he went in and 17 1/2 when he came out. He lost a year in the free world, but as he said yesterday, at least it gave him time to read a lot and re-group. He did two full years of high school (did a second junior year to start at his final school because you can't enter as a senior) and had two Carlbrook classmates at the school with him for the second year. The other two kids are at excellent colleges, too, and are doing well. Another peer from Carlbrook is now at Yale. Others are back using drugs and another is dead. After reading this forum and speaking privately to some of the regular posters, I am not an advocate of teen help programs. I DO think some are safe and are non-abusive. I think my family did what was right for us based on the choices available and the information we had. I am sorry we had to do it, but I can't look back-even now- and see another option. My goal now is to find those other options for future families and to make sure the full information is available for families about programs.
Not every kid needs to be removed from the influences of his or her home, friends, school and community. Mine did. It was very clear. I was a terrible teenager, too, but things were a lot different back then.
I AM talking about the owners when I discuss the two programs I know about. No one is getting rich right now from these programs. There are a ton of expenses, insurance and overhead. These people care about the work they are doing. We may not agree with the methods, and I am not saying this is the case with any other program but these two, but these owners are doing what they think is right.
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I find it odd that your son spent so much time away from home, 15 > 17 and only a summer at home before leaving again. That is really beyond the scope of this discussion so I won't go into it...
I noticed in your post that your son says that he understands that "Carlbrook allowed him to get where he is today". I can't take that seriously because it's part of the program that you believe that. Now I will admit I don't know Carlbrook's specifics but from what I do know Carlbrook seems to fit the mold of most abusive(which I'll define later) facilities. The main characteristic of such schools is the use of thought-reform, and when it comes to thought-reform I have to look at the program through cult-aware lenses. I don't know your history(100 pages is alot of reading, even for me) but from what I've read on the last 2-3 pages it appears to me that he owes nothing to Carlbrook. You describe him to be self motivated and I would attribute his success to that character trait...
Now when it comes to abuse in these programs it may not fit the mold of what we would normally consider to be abuse.. I'm going to post some quotes from Margaret Thaler Singer's article How Thought Reform works (http://http://www.freeminds.org/psych/thought_reform.htm) which bascially explains why programs using thought-reform are abusive, dangerous and effective in changing a persons view on everything including a persons self, past and future...With coercive persuasion you can change people's attitudes without their knowledge and volition. You can create new "attitudes" where they will do things willingly which they formerly may have detested, things which previously only torture, physical pain, or drugs could have coerced them to do.
Coercive persuasion or thought reform as it is sometimes known, is best understood as a coordinated system of graduated coercive influence and behavior control designed to deceptively and surreptitiously manipulate and influence individuals, usually in a group setting, in order for the originators of the program to profit in some way, normally financially or politically.
There are seven main tactic types found in various combinations in a coercive persuasion program. A coercive persuasion program can still be quite effective without the presence of ALL seven of these tactic types.
TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction.
TACTIC 2. Using rewards and punishments, efforts are made to establish considerable control over a person's social environment, time, and sources of social support. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. (In the forerunner to coercive persuasion, brainwashing, this was rather easy to achieve through simple imprisonment.)
TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.
TACTIC 4. Frequent and intense attempts are made to cause a person to re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms as well as getting them to reinterpret their life's history, and adopt a new version of causality.
TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.
TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.
TACTIC 7. Certain secular psychological threats [force] are used or are present: That failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief, or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequence, (e.g. physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.).
I would suggest that, sense you're helping other families find good programs, that you read the whole article.
Now If any facility uses these tactics(many do) then, regardless of their intentions, it's wrong. I believe that thought-reform is what makes abusive facilities so difficult to shutdown or reform because: - The abuse that's alleged, in most cases, is central to the successful use of thought-reform. Tactic 6 contains what most survivors describe here on this forum.
- Those who's thought's are reformed will be pro-program no matter what. This accounts for two people giving completely different reports about the same program, one glowing the other horrifying. This makes it difficult for teen advocates because basically you have a he said she said situation, and most would believe the "reformed" over the "manipulator"
Now only you and your son knows what his program was like, so was it abusive? Does his experience fit any of the tactic types listed above? I don't know, this is my first time hearing of Carlbrook. However if Carlbrook operates like a WWASPS, a Straight spin-off, or basically uses any of these tactic types(in any varying combination) I would have to conclude that yes the school abuses children in an effort to change their behavior using thought-reform, it's abusive, wrong and dangerous. The pervasive use of thought-reform makes me pause when ever I hear someone claim that "the program allowed me to get where I am today".
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By saying "Carlbrook allowed him to get where he is today", I am not attributing anything to the "program" per se. I personally think he got something from the program, but that is beside the point. The time at Carlbrook allowed a transcript repair and a "time out" which satisfied future schools- both top level prep schools and highly selective colleges. This is an undisputed fact. It has nothing to do with any changes in my son, workshops or therapy. Simply BEING at Carlbrook allowed him to present himself as a kid who had some problems and corrected them. Whether the Carlbrook program allowed him to conduct himself in a different manner at his next school and succeed beyond expectations or whether he simply gained maturity and self-control is anyone's guess.
Yes, he was away from home a lot. My daughter spent her last two years of high school at boarding school, too, for entirely different reasons. Lots of kids go to boarding school, especially high-achieving kids like mine (not bragging-this is a fact). Again, it isn't right for every kid, but it was for ours. [/b]
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It isn't right for every kid, but it was for ours.?
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That would actually be a Service Mark, (sm), not a trademark (?).
Unless, of course, the child is actually the product here, in which case ? is correct.
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@Charley
Ok. So your son may not have broken under the thought reform aspects of the program. It's rare, and i'm still not entirely convinced as to whether or not he was unaffected (not sure if it's really possible).
How many parents took their kid out like you did? If you hadn't removed him, do you think they would have been able to "break him down"?
Now keep in mind "breaking him down" is only justifiable in the military because it is needed in true life or death situations. Breaking someone down, to modify their behavior to get them to stop doing something without addressing the root of the problem is not justifiable. The military also would not dare use tactics that these schools do on their own recruits, nor would they use their existing tactics on people (especially kids) with psychological issues (such as depression, etc).
If a kid likes video games, and appears to be isolated i doubt this is the case. In many cases, the kid probably associates with other "gamers" often communicating with them online. Just because it is not face-to-face does not mean it is not social interaction. Would you send a football player to program because it appeared to consume his life?
Surely you are familiar with the 12 steps. Can you force somebody to take step one and realize he / she has a problem? The answer normally would be no, but with enough coercion you can convince a person that they have a problem they do not actually have. (see my info on LGATs) This results in a lot of the "they saved my life" testimonials.
The problem is, that sooner or later, in 90% of cases those kids realize how they were manipulated and they often rebel against their programming, throwing the baby(more like aborted fetus) out with the bathwater: vowing to do everything they told him/her not to do. If change is not from the heart, it is not really change, but an illusion.
Programs do not respect peoples free will and are usually willing to use any (usually unethical) means necessary to provide the parents with evidence that what they are doing is working. (if you had not taken your son out, he would have lost hope, and he would have broken). After my parents refused to take me out it's exactly what happened to me. Many programs care little as to whether their methods are effective in the long term, and they have no way of knowing if they are. What they care about is marketing.
Sure there are some program staff who truly probably believe they are helping the kids but I doubt they ignore money entirely. I wouldn't believe what programs reported as to their "expenses" if I were you. I know in my case, parents were billed for a lot more than the program actually delivered on (though mostly legally, through a "student revolving fund" among other fine print details.) You would have to do a serious audit in order to figure out whether or not Carlbrook has as many financial needs as they claim. Until then, i am assuming you are just taking their word for it.
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Sorry folks it took me a while to get back. I added to my post only to realize I was a few minutes(and a page) late, but I think it's relevant so I'll post the add on here.....
Now when it comes to abuse in these programs it may not fit the mold of what we would normally consider to be abuse.. I'm going to post some quotes from Margaret Thaler Singer's article How Thought Reform works (http://http://www.freeminds.org/psych/thought_reform.htm) which basically explains why programs using thought-reform are abusive, dangerous and effective in changing a persons view on everything including a persons self, past and future...With coercive persuasion you can change people's attitudes without their knowledge and volition. You can create new "attitudes" where they will do things willingly which they formerly may have detested, things which previously only torture, physical pain, or drugs could have coerced them to do.
Coercive persuasion or thought reform as it is sometimes known, is best understood as a coordinated system of graduated coercive influence and behavior control designed to deceptively and surreptitiously manipulate and influence individuals, usually in a group setting, in order for the originators of the program to profit in some way, normally financially or politically.
There are seven main tactic types found in various combinations in a coercive persuasion program. A coercive persuasion program can still be quite effective without the presence of ALL seven of these tactic types.
TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction.
TACTIC 2. Using rewards and punishments, efforts are made to establish considerable control over a person's social environment, time, and sources of social support. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. (In the forerunner to coercive persuasion, brainwashing, this was rather easy to achieve through simple imprisonment.)
TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.
TACTIC 4. Frequent and intense attempts are made to cause a person to re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms as well as getting them to reinterpret their life's history, and adopt a new version of causality.
TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.
TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.
TACTIC 7. Certain secular psychological threats [force] are used or are present: That failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief, or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequence, (e.g. physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.).
I would suggest that, sense you're helping other families find good programs, that you read the whole article.
Now If any facility uses these tactics(many do) then, regardless of their intentions, it's wrong. I believe that thought-reform is what makes abusive facilities so difficult to shutdown or reform because: - The abuse that's alleged, in most cases, is central to the successful use of thought-reform. Tactic 6 contains what most survivors describe here on this forum.
- Those who's thought's are reformed will be pro-program no matter what. This accounts for two people giving completely different reports about the same program, one glowing the other horrifying. This makes it difficult for teen advocates because basically you have a he said she said situation, and most would believe the "reformed" over the "manipulator"
Now only you and your son knows what his program was like, so was it abusive? Does his experience fit any of the tactic types listed above? I don't know, this is my first time hearing of Carlbrook. However if Carlbrook operates like a WWASPS, a Straight spin-off, or basically uses any of these tactic types(in any varying combination) I would have to conclude that yes the school abuses children in an effort to change their behavior using thought-reform, it's abusive, wrong and dangerous. The pervasive use of thought-reform makes me pause when ever I hear someone claim that "the program allowed me to get where I am today".
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Wow Im shocked, this is to all the people who are posting here because they are against helping out troubled teens and against a school which seems to be helping them out. All of you are classifying Carlbrook from what you have googled on the internet and what others have told you. Both of which aren't very reliable sources to have such strong opinions. You are stereotyping it from what you've heard about other theraputic schools, NOT CARLBROOK,(they are ALL different). In fact Carlbrook originated to be diffferent from other theraputic schools. Which is why Carlbrook isn't a theraputic school, its an emotional growth school-very different. I understand you all obviously have a lot of time on your hands and feel the need to express your resentment here. But maybe the people to post on this forum should be the ones with a little more experience and intelligence about the school.
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So how does an emotional growth school do things differently?
in the event that a kid does well academically at Carlbrook are they allowed to opt out of anything in the Emotional growth area on the grounds that they have decided that this is not a form of therapy or growth which works for them?
if not what happens to recalcitrant kids?
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Wow Im shocked, this is to all the people who are posting here because they are against helping out troubled teens and against a school which seems to be helping them out. All of you are classifying Carlbrook from what you have googled on the internet and what others have told you. Both of which aren't very reliable sources to have such strong opinions. You are stereotyping it from what you've heard about other theraputic schools, NOT CARLBROOK,(they are ALL different). In fact Carlbrook originated to be diffferent from other theraputic schools. Which is why Carlbrook isn't a theraputic school, its an emotional growth school-very different. I understand you all obviously have a lot of time on your hands and feel the need to express your resentment here. But maybe the people to post on this forum should be the ones with a little more experience and intelligence about the school.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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hanzomon,
Carlbrook is a CEDU spin-off. Roots in Synanon.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=232942#232942 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=232942#232942)
On Psychotherapy Cults
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 152#225152 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=225152#225152)
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Just think today it is Fat kids tomorrow they could do it with the mentally retarded!
Program parents?
Now that would be a reality show.
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So how does an emotional growth school do things differently?
in the event that a kid does well academically at Carlbrook are they allowed to opt out of anything in the Emotional growth area on the grounds that they have decided that this is not a form of therapy or growth which works for them?
if not what happens to recalcitrant kids?
They're sent to Wilderness.
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You only get sent back to wilderness for serious violations- such as harming someone or yourself, or absolutely refusing to engage in group sessions or individual sessions with your counselor.
Otherwise, you are put on a program, which can mean writing assignments, chores or meetings with staff and/or students.
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In california if your therapists thinks you are a harm to yourself or others they are required to report it and probably end up getting a 72 hour hold if they think youre serious. If a kid were to slice up their arms, or hurt themselves at Carlbrook would they be sent to a psychiatric facility for further evaluation, or is it kept in-house, and they are simply sent away to wilderness? The reason I ask is because at wwasps, there were kids locked up with obvious mental issues, and they would never receive the care that would help them. They ended up getting punished the most because they had the most serious issues. I hope that makes sense. How do they make that distinction at carlbrook? Do they make that distinction when a child is in serious danger?
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Kids are sent to a psych facility when they are in any serious danger. Superficial cuts get you sent to wilderness.
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That is one aspect of programs that has always bothered me. How does one know whether the kid you put there is going to be the one who uses any means necessary in order to get out? What is mental illness really, if a kid never thinks about suicide in their life before, but then locked up in a stressful environment suddenly it's a good idea, does that make them mentally ill? I don't know how to answer that question. My point being, unless a kid takes drastic action, they will be sent to wilderness. They know this, which, in my opinion, can seriously complicate things. That is why forced treatment is always risky, no matter how reasonable the child might seem. How far will a kid go in order to make their point? The answer to that is all the way, kids will go all the way to make their point, as far as they have to. So when programs say that kids with serious psychological problems will be sent to a psych hospital and has plans to escape, suddenly the idea of atempting suicide, or stabbing another student become a good idea. The more kids who try these things, the higher the bar gets with the program staff, and eventually they think every kid is faking it, even if their not. That leads to lots of psychologically damaged kids being treated as "manipulators", a culture where psychological problems do not even exist. I am not saying this happens at Carlbrook, but I have seen some variance of this at every forced treatment facility I have been at. When there is only one way to escape, someone is going to try it, eventually. Parents should realize it could be their kid who does it, and should know the risks and how ridiculous a situation can become when involved ina cult like group of people and the only person you can trust is yourself.
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In addition to running away and attempting suicide, this is an example of how far they'll go:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ped#226330 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=226330&highlight=raped#226330)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=226346#226346 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=226346#226346)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=226554#226554 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=226554#226554)
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Why is "wilderness" used so damn much?
Why is "wilderness" some kind of answer or catchall?
Why is "wilderness" both therapy and punishment?
Why do I hear people speak of some mysterious "wilderness" effect when its pretty clear based off what everyone has had to say about it that had any specifics at all, that its just an austere environment used to make them be filthy, tired, and exhausted, and break them down?
And, finally, how did they get parents to sign off on that baloney? I honestly want to know how some magical child growth school has to resort to making people suffer covered in filth, totally exhausted and forced to rely on the people hurting them for survival if its so damned magical and thriveing and whatever! :)
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You only get sent back to wilderness for serious violations- such as harming someone or yourself, or absolutely refusing to engage in group sessions or individual sessions with your counselor.
Otherwise, you are put on a program, which can mean writing assignments, chores or meetings with staff and/or students.
Being punished for harming yourself is beyond cruel, it's dangerous. Self injury is a sign that a persons is in great turmoil and possible suicidal do to desperation. Session with a counselor, group or single, should not be forced and certainly not punishable. This demonstrates a great lack of patience, which you need when dealing with anyone who needs counseling. Would it be safe to say that these "counselors" have no real psychiatry credentials from a university? If so they should not be having sessions with anyone, especially when those sessions are forced.
Kids are sent to a psych facility when they are in any serious danger. Superficial cuts get you sent to wilderness.
This is quiet disturbing, in a highly stressful environment no cut is superficial. Any harm of ones body is a sign of desperation that needs to be taken seriously and not punished!?!?!
I'm not trying to play psychic, but I would not be surprised if there was a successful suicide. I would even say it's a matter of when.... not if. Charly, Is this place state licensed?
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Hanzo, don't forget the entire point is to break them down so much they don't even think about a cry for help, all they can do is turn to 'working the program' to escape their torment.
But it works for SOME kids so its okay, right!
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Why is "wilderness" used so damn much?
Why is "wilderness" some kind of answer or catchall?
Why is "wilderness" both therapy and punishment?
Why do I hear people speak of some mysterious "wilderness" effect when its pretty clear based off what everyone has had to say about it that had any specifics at all, that its just an austere environment used to make them be filthy, tired, and exhausted, and break them down?
And, finally, how did they get parents to sign off on that baloney? I honestly want to know how some magical child growth school has to resort to making people suffer covered in filth, totally exhausted and forced to rely on the people hurting them for survival if its so damned magical and thriveing and whatever! :)
To soften them up, makes a kids mind more malleable ::bangin::.. It fits tactic type 1TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction.
This place is really stating to sink of thought reform especially being a CEDU spin-off..... Alas I will hold off on my judgment as to what I think this place is, but it doesn't look good to me...
Hey, Charly did read the tactic types, if so does Carlbrook fit any of them?
But it works for SOME kids so its okay, right!
Does it work? or is that what they are made to believe? Either way they need to stop calling it therapy.
EDIT[/color]: Yeah Charly we're not attacking you. You don't have to answer our question, but you are and I appreciate that
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I was trying to get Charly's input on those questions, I'm curious what she thinks or was lead to think about them.
I'm also curious how she was convinced to go along with it and think it is "OK".
EDIT: I'm not here trying to marathon or stand her up before group or bake her at 500° here, thats what we're supposed to be against... so don't get that idea, Charly. I dont want to judge you or set you up to get ripped into for being 'wrong', I just want to know what you honestly think about it.
Ugh. I think the real lesson here is: we're all human beings, and human beings are some seriously messed up, potentially evil, surprisingly easy to manipulate creatures.
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You only get sent back to wilderness for serious violations- such as harming someone or yourself, or absolutely refusing to engage in group sessions or individual sessions with your counselor.
Otherwise, you are put on a program, which can mean writing assignments, chores or meetings with staff and/or students.
This charlie is what i dont like about the concept of emotional growth schools. Adults do not get therapy forced on them. Self harming gestures are seen as a cry for help. Why should this be different with kids? What do you see is the benefit of sending a kid who has just hurt themself (even if they are not seriously injured) to wilderness?
I would agree that if a kid is geniuely violent toward their peers they should be punished at any school. But I would also think that expulsion would be more effective for everyone than a few weeks in the bush.
Oz Girl
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That's also something that really burns me.
Adults cant be trampled and psychologically raped for months at a time to make them into new people, only children - and only with their loving parent's approval...
But we're getting off topic here and I dont want to scare off Charly off when we've finally opened a dialogue here. Her kid's out of the program and we gotta be the mature adults on fornits if we ever want to get anywhere :roll: despite what ST has to say about us.
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It happens to adults too. Only now it's done chemically. Instead of altering your psyche in a seminar, they throw a few chemicals in your brain and see what they can knock out commission for a while to make you more zombie. You can sign in willingly to a treatment center, end up tied down to a bed face down with leather straps screaming to be let go, only to be given a shot of thorazine in your ass for the trouble.
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Yeah, and if you're afraid of someone doing that to you you're "paranoid".
But just remember you'll only be locked up like that for as long as you have health insurance so... make sure it'll only pay for a week at a time!
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I guess my answer is a not very helpful "I don't know." I don't think Tactic Type 1 sounds at all like Carlbrook (from what I have been told).
I also think there is a line where you CAN'T really force therapy. The problem is that some kids are able to be forced and either fake it or really do buy in. My son didn't. He was able to get a few "take aways". One was that our family wasn't so bad after all compared to some of the stuff he was hearing from other kids. Another was that he had a pretty good life. Another was taking responsibility for some of the things that got him to wilderness/c-brook. He figured this out fast (at wilderness, actually).
My biggest concern remains that parents don't have options. If my son- 2 1/2 years post program and completely past any of this stuff-is saying we did the right thing with wilderness but that there should have been some other option for post-wilderness- how do we figure out what that should be? I am not here any longer defending ANY program. I am just working on sorting things out for myself and others. There is a parent on ST who has been successful bringing his son home after wilderness. My son doesn't think that would have been good for him due to a combination of lack of school options and peer issues.
I don't think we (at least I'm not) are qualified to judge when a kid needs to be sent to a psychiatric facility from a TBS. I do know that Carlbrook's principals are very intelligent and very liability conscious and would never risk a kid's safety. (aside from the issue I had with them letting boys play lacrosse without any protective equipment. Sure-why not give a bunch of aggressive boys an outlet by letting them hit each other with sticks? How many injuries did it take.........)
I think part of what you see as coercion and lack of any free choice is the simple matter of trying to keep the kids from running. My son would have run (was actually in on a plan where two kids DID run) if he hadn't been worried about being put somewhere worse. As parents, we needed to know our kids were where we had chosen and that the place could keep track of them. My son took about a 3 mile jaunt down the road and back shortly after he got there, but it was classified as "training" and not running away. Someone told on him, of course.
On the workshops- my son says the best description is contained in Sean Wilsey's autobiography ("Oh the Glory of It All"). He went to Cascade until he ran away and there is a chapter about Cascade which my son says is Carlbrook exactly.
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My son didn't. He was able to get a few "take aways". One was that our family wasn't so bad after all compared to some of the stuff he was hearing from other kids. Another was that he had a pretty good life.
If you had any idea how much that kind of statement makes everyone's blood boil, Charly, I think you'd 'get it' pretty quickly.
The very notion or SUGGESTION that a program is intended to make a kid think higher of his parents/family/previous life before the program is something that royally gets pretty much everyone here into a shit caniption. It besmirks of narcissism and immaturity on the part of the parent and basically that the program exists to instigate submission and worship of the parent on the part of the kid, instead of making them a critical, self-motivated self-directed adult.
Is your home the USSR and are you Stalin?
I kind of find it pretty sad that one of the two things he "got from the experience" was that a program was worse than his home life... that's not much of an accomplishment.
Another was taking responsibility for some of the things that got him to wilderness/c-brook. He figured this out fast (at wilderness, actually).
Introspection is a good skill, and it showed his maturity and the fact that nothing was really wrong with him if he was able to do that. However, what a 'wilderness'-program or Carlbrook did did not create that - HE did it, and even if he did get that 'take away', it doesn't justify that program one iota.
Also, TBQH, thats exactly what a wilderness is not supposed to do... its supposed to break him down and make him start believing thier bullshit and being an obedient little child-animal, not think for himself. So... whoops :rofl:
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My biggest concern remains that parents don't have options. If my son- 2 1/2 years post program and completely past any of this stuff-is saying we did the right thing with wilderness but that there should have been some other option for post-wilderness- how do we figure out what that should be? I am not here any longer defending ANY program. I am just working on sorting things out for myself and others. There is a parent on ST who has been successful bringing his son home after wilderness. My son doesn't think that would have been good for him due to a combination of lack of school options and peer issues.
Um, what does lack of options matter if a place that doesn't give any help and doesn't do any good is the decision you made?
And how did Carlbook help any 'school options' or 'peer issues' anyway?
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My son didn't. He was able to get a few "take aways". One was that our family wasn't so bad after all compared to some of the stuff he was hearing from other kids. Another was that he had a pretty good life.
If you had any idea how much that kind of statement makes everyone's blood boil, Charly, I think you'd 'get it' pretty quickly.
She does have a point. Program does make you appreciate your life at home (or pretty much anywhere else)
The very notion or SUGGESTION that a program is intended to make a kid think higher of his parents/family/previous life before the program is something that royally gets pretty much everyone here into a shit caniption. It besmirks of narcissism and immaturity on the part of the parent and basically that the program exists to instigate submission and worship of the parent on the part of the kid, instead of making them a critical, self-motivated self-directed adult.
Maybe i'm wrong but I don't think she meant to imply that she sent her kid there for that purpose. I think it's a pretty realistic statement. Shit. When i was in program I was willing to go pretty much anywhere else.
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To make a point out of a program being so miserable you would rather be anywhere else is not a good point or a 'take home' or any other such garbage, is my point.
Wow, you put your child somewhere away from you with no way to escape or ask you save him thats so bad he'd rather be anywhere and your household is better! Zippa de do dah!
Psy, one thing that I have seen at least on ST is some people DO think that is a good thing, DO think that it is an accomplishment and DO think one of the points of a program is to change a childs thinking to reflect that. Yanno, make the lil brat appreciate what you did for 'em, right?
That entire attitude just absolutely kills me. Its your own child not some enemy or an animal you're trying to break the will of.
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I hear american parents argue that they lack options a lot. I appreciate that you guys have some pretty strong laws and I can see why parents fear them. I think I would probably feel nervous for my child if they lived in a zero tolerance culture and were testing boundaries.
But there seems to be a misconception that American kids are more out of control than any other western nation. Statistically American kids are more conservative, less likely to take drugs than their parents and more or less in step with their counterparts is similar western countries.Yet it seems that this industry is growing when American kids are behaving better than ever before.
Perhaps one option would be that when all else fails and a kid is still taking a lot of drugs etc and is past the age of 18 is to do nothing, let them move into a flat with their friends without cutting them off completely and see how things go. It is likely that they will either get a job and have to cut back somewhat on their worst habits or eventually realise that they need an education etc and start working toward that goal. if it is the former perhaps they will gain some valuable life experiences, if it is the latter the college fund will still be there because it has not been spent giving a kid therapy that they dont want. This is what parents in other countries are forced to do because the industry does not exist. While a few kids do get into really big trouble, most dont. it seems that a lot of programmes really push the idea that if your kid is too immature to settle down and go to college right away they will end up a drunk hobo. I dont see how growth can be forced.
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I disagree, Nihil. It was an important discovery for my son that he had cost himself something important- life with his family (even though a lot of it was at a boarding school). It isn't a matter of the program's GOAL being to bring about that. I am just stating facts as they pertain to MY kid and OUR situation. I personally sat in groups at Carlbrook and heard kids say they would rather be at Carlbrook than with their families. There were some really unfortunate family situations. My son hated us and thought it wasn't worth following a few basic rules to live in our home.
Another thing he learned was that it was OK to have (and show) feelings. He had grown up keeping everything in until he "blew". That did not serve him well. He didn't come out gushing with emotions, but he was a whole lot better than when he went in. He learned this from other kids in the programs who he liked and respected. They were kids like him in many ways, and they were learning to express anger, fear, sadness and joy in healthy ways. This worked for my kid. I'm not saying it makes the program great and worth it.
When we were faced with the decision on a program, we met a family in town who had a kid who had just graduated from Cascade. He had the same general profile as my son- private school kid, no respect for authority of any kind, some substance use, defied all consequences..... He was starting at University of Michigan. There was little info out there about Carlbrook- it was pretty new. I did talk to two local families with kids there and one person from ST who had a kid a lot like my son who got kicked out of C-brook.
I didn't say Carlbrook helped school options (although it did) or peer issues. I'm saying that is why coming home wasn't an option (my son's statement this week).
My kid ONLY got into his next school because Carlbrook gave him the green light. They didn't like doing it, but they did. They could have told those schools what they really believed, which was that my son was a disaster and would corrupt their community and not succeed without finishing the C-brook program. Instead, the head guy crossed his fingers and let us go.
You are going to be all over me for this, but I am a parent. I knew my kid was ready to come out just as strongly as I knew he couldn't stay at home any longer when we sent him to wilderness.
Another thing to remember- even if parents were to be told there is only a 30% success rate- even if they are told the things you point out with statistics and studies- if there is a CHANCE your child will be helped- you are willing to take it. This is why there needs to be options that are not abusive in any way and rely on proven therapeutic techniques.
It is hard for me to generalize, because what is right for a kid with a huge substance addiction is not right for a kid with anger and depression.
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he had cost himself
Why must you keep hanging on to this? Why?
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because what is right for a kid with a huge substance addiction is not right for a kid with anger and depression.
And yet most programs offer the one solution fits all, we take any kind of troubled kid, routine. Really makes you wonder.
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I read aspens own study on this. They based the success rate on "less symptoms" of the kids who went. Charlie you mention your son came out with an appreciation for his family. Do you think that this was the only way he would have achieved this? does he? If you had no option to send him to an emotional growth school how do you think this might have been achieved?
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he had cost himself
Why must you keep hanging on to this? Why?
It's another fact. His parents did not get him kicked out of the school he loved so that he had to move away from the friends he loved. No one made him do the other things that led to a situation where he had to be in a program against his will.
He Cost Himself. He does not dispute that at all. It's a pretty obvious statement.
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Above post mine. I keep getting logged out.
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I disagree, Nihil. It was an important discovery for my son that he had cost himself something important- life with his family (even though a lot of it was at a boarding school). It isn't a matter of the program's GOAL being to bring about that. I am just stating facts as they pertain to MY kid and OUR situation. I personally sat in groups at Carlbrook and heard kids say they would rather be at Carlbrook than with their families. There were some really unfortunate family situations. My son hated us and thought it wasn't worth following a few basic rules to live in our home.
Another thing he learned was that it was OK to have (and show) feelings. He had grown up keeping everything in until he "blew". That did not serve him well. He didn't come out gushing with emotions, but he was a whole lot better than when he went in. He learned this from other kids in the programs who he liked and respected. They were kids like him in many ways, and they were learning to express anger, fear, sadness and joy in healthy ways. This worked for my kid. I'm not saying it makes the program great and worth it.
When we were faced with the decision on a program, we met a family in town who had a kid who had just graduated from Cascade. He had the same general profile as my son- private school kid, no respect for authority of any kind, some substance use, defied all consequences..... He was starting at University of Michigan. There was little info out there about Carlbrook- it was pretty new. I did talk to two local families with kids there and one person from ST who had a kid a lot like my son who got kicked out of C-brook.
I didn't say Carlbrook helped school options (although it did) or peer issues. I'm saying that is why coming home wasn't an option (my son's statement this week).
My kid ONLY got into his next school because Carlbrook gave him the green light. They didn't like doing it, but they did. They could have told those schools what they really believed, which was that my son was a disaster and would corrupt their community and not succeed without finishing the C-brook program. Instead, the head guy crossed his fingers and let us go.
You are going to be all over me for this, but I am a parent. I knew my kid was ready to come out just as strongly as I knew he couldn't stay at home any longer when we sent him to wilderness.
Another thing to remember- even if parents were to be told there is only a 30% success rate- even if they are told the things you point out with statistics and studies- if there is a CHANCE your child will be helped- you are willing to take it. This is why there needs to be options that are not abusive in any way and rely on proven therapeutic techniques.
It is hard for me to generalize, because what is right for a kid with a huge substance addiction is not right for a kid with anger and depression.
A chance is one thing, but given zero evidence at all and the lack of seperating coallation from causation, you don't even have that to stand on in an arguement! I can understand the willingness to do anything for a perceived "deadinsaneorinjail" situation, but that still does not make it right - it merely excuses someone making a hasty decision under duress without knowledge of the facts.
First you say that he cost himself life with family, yet most of it was at a boarding school, then you act like that's somehow some sort of a goal? It is NOT a developmental or psychotherapeutic goal to make someone just utterly love and respect their parents and what was 'provided' for them, especially if most of it was so far away from them.
Respect is EARNED. This is COERSION!
Not trying to Dr. Phil out here but don't you think growing up at a boarding school might have contributed to how he is? How can you earn someones respect if he's not around you? All he did was realize carlbrook was shitty and that it would be preferrable to be elsewhere than carlbrook, but that being spun as "respecting authority and what the parents did for the child" just reeks of the nonsense that comes out like a torrent from programs, programmies and struggling parents.
That isn't growing up, developmental blah blah blah or anything, but it might be a part of one of those fly-by-night EMOTIONAL GROWTH curriculums, as buckus as they are for lack of a better word to describe them.
Have you ever gone to a real Psych about any of this?
Also, speaking from a little experience and a little education, trauma in general and the kind of bullshit a program does is not what a sane educuated PROFESSIONAL would ever do to help someone who can't 'feel feelings' or express them. What programs do is FORCE their disclosure, and that can be extremely traumatic and horrible for a lot of people to endure, and oftentimes is used as a vehicle to make them 'break down' moreso than some psycho-cryfest disclosure sob-party goal like most of the Erhard derived LGATs are.
Forcing someone to say what they feel about everything and disclose everything (and then hurting them for it one way or another, as well as telling them how they SHOULD feel...) is pretty similiar to punishing someone for hurting themself becuase they can't handle the suffering they're going through so they just hold it in. Its control of your communication and your mind, control over what you can feel and express, and its not a good thing at all, its psychological quackery.
Programs are about as good for learning how to express yourself and feel feelings and confront them as ballgags are.
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Above post mine. I keep getting logged out.
Delete your cookies and make sure the stay logged in checkbox is there.
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I read aspens own study on this. They based the success rate on "less symptoms" of the kids who went. Charlie you mention your son came out with an appreciation for his family. Do you think that this was the only way he would have achieved this? does he? If you had no option to send him to an emotional growth school how do you think this might have been achieved?
My first (albeit emotional) reaction to that is "oh if he doesnt appreciate me I'll hurt them until they appreciate how I was!"
Coersion is not respect... a family over a torture-camp is not an accomplishment.
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Oz Girl- Neither my son nor we (parents) can envision how we could have repaired the family relationship without our son going away. It just wasn't happening. He didn't come out thinking we were the Cleavers, but he came out with an understanding of where we were coming from. Part of this was the letters we sent to him in wilderness. He had nothing to do but process them and respond. He would not even agree to converse with us while he was home. He was acting out and depressed about getting kicked out of his school and some other things. He was engaging in increasingly risky behaviors which I have finally learned to not air any further on the internet. :)
A lot of the parents we met at both programs seemed like really good parents. Some were not. We were very willing to admit how and where we had massively screwed up with our parenting. That was some of the problem, but not all. One family had a really young son at wilderness- 14 or so. He really looked up to my son. He was the only one in the group who got to go home and not to some kind of program. He was in and out of rehab and other programs for the next 2 1/2 years and still is. The girl my son got busted with is still in and out of rehab and she is 21. She only lasted a semester in college. So-I am by no means saying these programs have a high success rate.
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You've yet to show if they would have not done as well as they are now without the program...
Coallation is NOT causation. That is a big part of science and psychotherapy.
Also, do you not see any moral or ethical problems with forcing someone to live in filth, outside in austere conditions getting his buttons pushed and force-exercised by people with stupid indian names to make him write to you?
Do you not see any sort of duress present in the letters to you while living through that kind of environment?
Why is HE the one in filth, eating shitty food, cold, forced exercised, and being emotionally pushed for your mistakes?
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I disagree, Nihil. It was an important discovery for my son that he had cost himself something important- life with his family (even though a lot of it was at a boarding school). It isn't a matter of the program's GOAL being to bring about that. I am just stating facts as they pertain to MY kid and OUR situation. I personally sat in groups at Carlbrook and heard kids say they would rather be at Carlbrook than with their families.
What the hell else could they say? Would you expect a kid to sit there and say "i hate Carlbrook" in front of parents? What do you think would happen to the kid?
In some cases it is true, in some cases it is not. In my case (another cedu clone as you know) the program lied to us about our parents, telling us they "didn't want you back", that they didn't care. They lied to the kids about what the parents said, did, and wanted, and lied to the parents about what the kids said, did, and wanted.
If a kid wanted to succeed, he had to speak positively about the program to his parents if he didn't, it was either "negative attitude" or "manipulations". After enough time, workshops, punishments, bans (which is really cruel in all reality), etc etc etc... a kid gave in, telling his parents "i love it here, I need this place, they are saving me, i messed up at first but now i realize bla bla bla I LOVE THE PROGRAM... WHEEE!!!".
At this point, the parents think "oh gee, my kid is really getting the help he needs" (and is willing to pay for as long as it takes). By manipulating the kid into telling his parents these things, they program holds a carrot on a stick, running the parents around in circles (and charging them for the stick rental.)
There were some really unfortunate family situations. My son hated us and thought it wasn't worth following a few basic rules to live in our home.
Another thing he learned was that it was OK to have (and show) feelings. He had grown up keeping everything in until he "blew". That did not serve him well. He didn't come out gushing with emotions, but he was a whole lot better than when he went in. He learned this from other kids in the programs who he liked and respected. They were kids like him in many ways, and they were learning to express anger, fear, sadness and joy in healthy ways. This worked for my kid. I'm not saying it makes the program great and worth it.
So by dragging personal shit out in public in group, and forcing the kid to speak about his feelings, it makes him seem "open" while in program. What happens after a while of being out? Many shut off completely. You feel like never trusting another person with your feelings after you were forced to disclose things like you did in program.
When we were faced with the decision on a program, we met a family in town who had a kid who had just graduated from Cascade. He had the same general profile as my son- private school kid, no respect for authority of any kind, some substance use, defied all consequences..... He was starting at University of Michigan. There was little info out there about Carlbrook- it was pretty new. I did talk to two local families with kids there and one person from ST who had a kid a lot like my son who got kicked out of C-brook.
I didn't say Carlbrook helped school options (although it did) or peer issues. I'm saying that is why coming home wasn't an option (my son's statement this week).
My kid ONLY got into his next school because Carlbrook gave him the green light. They didn't like doing it, but they did. They could have told those schools what they really believed, which was that my son was a disaster and would corrupt their community and not succeed without finishing the C-brook program.
Couldn't the program have been sued if they did that? It's my understanding that many employers rarely answer questions from a former employee's new job for this reason. They merely state "he worked here from this time til this time"
What I see you saying, is that your son wasn't really helped by Carlbrook apart from his own introspection, and that he did fine after maturing a little.
Instead, the head guy crossed his fingers and let us go.
You are going to be all over me for this, but I am a parent. I knew my kid was ready to come out just as strongly as I knew he couldn't stay at home any longer when we sent him to wilderness.
Another thing to remember- even if parents were to be told there is only a 30% success rate- even if they are told the things you point out with statistics and studies- if there is a CHANCE your child will be helped- you are willing to take it. This is why there needs to be options that are not abusive in any way and rely on proven therapeutic techniques.
Agreed. If only those options could be as profitable...
It is hard for me to generalize, because what is right for a kid with a huge substance addiction is not right for a kid with anger and depression.
And yet they lump them all together in program and claim they can fix it all with the same techniques. (although they are careful to only imply (not state directly) that they can fix the problems... if they did it would make the program "therapeutic")
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he had cost himself
Why must you keep hanging on to this? Why?
It's another fact. His parents did not get him kicked out of the school he loved so that he had to move away from the friends he loved. No one made him do the other things that led to a situation where he had to be in a program against his will.
He Cost Himself. He does not dispute that at all. It's a pretty obvious statement.
Did he dispute it before he was sent to wilderness? Carlbrook?
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You've yet to show if they would have not done as well as they are now without the program...
Coallation is NOT causation. That is a big part of science and psychotherapy.
Also, do you not see any moral or ethical problems with forcing someone to live in filth, outside in austere conditions getting his buttons pushed and force-exercised by people with stupid indian names to make him write to you?
Actually, in her defense, i looked up the wilderness program her kid was at, and i couldn't find a single accusation of abuse anywhere. That's really rare for wilderness. From what she described the place actually seemed legit.
Do you not see any sort of duress present in the letters to you while living through that kind of environment?
Why is HE the one in filth, eating shitty food, cold, forced exercised, and being emotionally pushed for your mistakes?
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Then please do explain to me how a nonconsentual 'wilderness experience' works without abuse. I'll listen!
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I do believe parents have options, I just think they lack the the patience to follow through with the more traditional therapies.. I'm not saying that's the case in your situation Charly but generally speaking parents want the fix him now option. However if a parent is looking for options they must realize that somethings are just not options.
Any unlicensed facility, that hires unqualified staff with the mandate of breaking the child down by using thought-reform or other abusive means is NoT an option. The danger of accepting any option thats presented is a major flaw in the desperate parent. You truly don't know who or what you're giving your child to, staffers could be sexual predators for all you know.... Just because someone says they're an option doesn't mean they are. We all know about various cons, from car mechanics to email scams. So how can we justify shipping our kids off to people who have no credentials just because it's an option, which it's not.
Look at it like this: If your child had cancer, and you had tried everything, and nothing worked. Would you allow a person with no credentials from a medical school give chemo therapy and preform surgery on your child just because it was the only option you hadn't tried?
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Good question, psy. He was so filled with anger and depression that he wouldn't really articulate it. He did not dispute that his actions had, once again, resulted in him getting kicked out of a school. However, he didn't think he could "help it" and resented that places ran out of patience with him. He certainly did not agree that his actions got him to wilderness. His first letter to us was all about what we had "done to him". By week 6, he figured a lot of things out and was ready to come home (he thought). Maybe he was, but we weren't ready for him. During his year away, he gained an appreciation for the need to follow rules in a community in order to remain part of that community. This was the case at C-brook, of course, but more importantly, it is the case at all private schools, teams, jobs etc. He learned to do a risk/benefit analysis before acting. He convinced his father and me that if the type school he wanted to attend would give him a chance, he would not let them (or us) down.
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Karen, what he did is called 'growing up', and people do that on their own. One thing, though, is the crux of why fornits and ST lock horns so much.
Maybe he was, but we weren't ready for him.
:flame: Thats a very, very, very selfish and sick thing to say. You cant just dismiss your own flesh and blood (to a PROGRAM no less!) when you're not ready to be a parent, you don't have that option, you are the ADULT, he is the CHILD, is he not.
So, again, why was he in the sticks and then a program because of your parenting mistakes that you only generally admit to?
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I'M not ready to deal with Karen!!
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Also, speaking from a little experience and a little education, trauma in general and the kind of bullshit a program does is not what a sane educuated PROFESSIONAL would ever do to help someone who can't 'feel feelings' or express them. What programs do is FORCE their disclosure, and that can be extremely traumatic and horrible for a lot of people to endure, and oftentimes is used as a vehicle to make them 'break down' moreso than some psycho-cryfest disclosure sob-party goal like most of the Erhard derived LGATs are.
Programs generally don't help kids to get in tough with their true feelings. More often than not they tell kids what their feelings are, and drill it in until they believe it. (see LGATs)
Forcing someone to say what they feel about everything and disclose everything (and then hurting them for it one way or another, as well as telling them how they SHOULD feel...) is pretty similiar to punishing someone for hurting themself becuase they can't handle the suffering they're going through so they just hold it in.
This is not to even mention how traumatic it is to sit there and have to disclose every detail about your private life to the group (or else you are either hounded, or they disclose your details for you). This is not to mention that after you disclose traumatic events, they re-interpret things for you, telling you how you felt, and why you were wrong.
Its control of your communication and your mind, control over what you can feel and express, and its not a good thing at all, its psychological quackery.
Programs are about as good for learning how to express yourself and feel feelings and confront them as ballgags are.
Arguably, ballgags are much less harmful in the long run.
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Consentual ball-gagging is hardly bad, but explain the distinction to a programmie :roll:
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I'M not ready to deal with Karen!!
Then chill and take a break for a while. Seriously.
The way you help parents to empathize with program kids situations is by talking to them calmly. I had to do this with my parents and they eventually came around to seeing things my way. Karen is not so much of an anomaly as many people think.
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It also sounds to me Niles that her son wasn't ready for her either. Hence his opting out to return to a boarding school afterwards.
Charley, was he offered an opportunity to return home after Carlbrook?
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Psy- I'm talking about kids screaming at their own parents in group telling them they hate them and won't come home. Also, I am talking about showing feelings to each other in private, as well as groups. This worked really well in wilderness and some of the time at Carlbrook.
My son did fine with the wilderness food. He is very fit and appreciated the nutrition, which was good. He even cooked some of the stuff for us on a camping trip. His gear was incredible (we have 2 sets of it....). It is top of the line and he was warm and protected. The January nights were rough if you had to get out of your bag, he said. He was really, really proud of his wilderness time.
Here is the big disconnect- my kid could not stay at home. That is what I can't seem to get across. Our family could not function and he was begging for rescue. The rescue he got wasn't what he wanted, but we didn't know what else to do. You can gleefully say "why waste the money when Carlbrook doesn't work", but the point is, our son had to go somewhere. My choice was wilderness or a RTC because he would not willingly go anywhere.
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:flame: Thats a very, very, very selfish and sick thing to say. You cant just dismiss your own flesh and blood (to a PROGRAM no less!) when you're not ready to be a parent, you don't have that option, you are the ADULT, he is the CHILD, is he not.
It may seem selfish, but it's a very common thing to say, and for parents to do. Some kids to raise hell and drive their parents mad. Program offers an attractive (but illusionary) "way out".
With all the bad reports from program, parents often end up thinking their kids are worse than when they went in. With the emphasis on "do not take your kid back or else... BOO!!" what do you really expect most parents to do. My parents were the exception, they took me back an I did fine. How many parents are willing to take that risk, especially when they see being at home as a risk to their kid?
So, again, why was he in the sticks and then a program because of your parenting mistakes that you only generally admit to?
All parents make mistakes, and some parents make very few mistakes and their kids still end up a bit off. Just look at Exhausted.
The problem is choice. Kids have free will. The only thing programs try to do is take away that will so they behave in a "normal" manner.
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Does "first, do no harm" click in your head??
You dont throw away a child, you deal with it, you're the parent, you're HIS parent, and no child gets screwed up all by themselves (except via negligence, which is a problem with parents and a 'choice' by programmie logic...) and some things called betrayal, isolation, abandonment, and manipulation.
And all of that was done to your own flesh and blood. And you don't seem to care. You don't even seem to recognize that it happened, much less the signifigance of it.
Can you just not comprehend it? Can you not understand what he and all those other children went through?
I'll just be blunt - are you THAT dense?
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Of course he could have come home after Carlbrook. I don't think you guys understand the opportunities he had at boarding school. It was a big sacrifice for us to send him, but it was what he wanted academically and athletically. He chose the path that he thought would get him the best athletic training with strong academics so he could go to the type college he (He-not we) wanted. He came home every break and we went up to see him a lot and went on college and recruiting visits with him.
"We weren't ready for him" is a fair statement. He had done some horrible things to us and to our household. We did not trust that he was ready to come home and we did not have educational options here for him anyway. We were told very clearly by therapists that we trusted that it was too soon for him to come home. As I said, he NOW agrees with that. He just doesn't think Carlbrook was the right kind of place for him. He clearly stated this week that coming home would not have been the right thing for him and he would not be where he is right now if he had come home.
Niles- I'm sorry I can't say what you want me to say, which is that these two programs abused my son and I'm sorry I was a horrible, selfish parent who hated my kid. That's not the case. I am no longer convinced the TBS model is a good one. I think it has some serious flaws. I AM convinced my son's particular wilderness program is a good one.
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Niles- I'm sorry I can't say what you want me to say, which is that these two programs abused my son and I'm sorry I was a horrible, selfish parent who hated my kid.
BULLSHIT?
There goes the fucking Struggling Turkey spin machine all over again, putting words in my mouth and trying to villify me and make it so I said things I didn't say so you can win an arguement of your own construction.
Nice try, but I will give you the pleasure of seeing me pissed the fuck off, because I am. I'm free to tell you off, I'm not under duress or coersion, and I am infact free white and over 21.
I never said you hated your child, but you are being pretty selfish and pretty DENSE.
Programs, LGATS... are abusive, are traumatic, and you don't seem to care about that, just about the 'product' - how your child acts once he gets out of it. Why?
Another thing, if that "Wilderness" was so good, and so non abusive, what did it do? how did it do what it did? What about the whole lack of choice factor that is so carefully danced around?
SPECIFICS. FACTS. No more emotional generalized nonsense, Karen. What did it do and how did you do it, and I don't want any damned FEELINGS or BELIEFS, becuase they don't matter one iota. Nobody cares how you feel here. We care about the thousands of children going through hell right now!
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Psy- I'm talking about kids screaming at their own parents in group telling them they hate them and won't come home. Also, I am talking about showing feelings to each other in private, as well as groups. This worked really well in wilderness and some of the time at Carlbrook.
It may seem to be beneficial, but if it's coerced, it will do far more harm than good in the long run.
My son did fine with the wilderness food. He is very fit and appreciated the nutrition, which was good. He even cooked some of the stuff for us on a camping trip. His gear was incredible (we have 2 sets of it....). It is top of the line and he was warm and protected. The January nights were rough if you had to get out of your bag, he said. He was really, really proud of his wilderness time.
Here is the big disconnect- my kid could not stay at home. That is what I can't seem to get across. Our family could not function and he was begging for rescue. The rescue he got wasn't what he wanted, but we didn't know what else to do. You can gleefully say "why waste the money when Carlbrook doesn't work", but the point is, our son had to go somewhere. My choice was wilderness or a RTC because he would not willingly go anywhere.
Knowing what you know now about Carlbrook, would you have looked for another option for your son?
I know your kid was getting in trouble and running riot, but if a place does not work what good would it do? It seems like introspection was the most beneficial for your son...
I know the answer to this but it might help others here to understand: Couldn't a normal boarding school have been an acceptable solution? Therapy?
Honestly it's hard to give alternatives to parents because there aren't many well-publicized alternatives out there. I understand full well why parents in a difficult situation often see programs as the only alternative; however, i truly feel that if parents had full knowledge of what programs did they would not consider it.
Why is it so hard to convince parents of this? Becuase it takes ages to explain the intricate aspects of how programs mess with your mind. It's why I created my website.
While everybody here probably aggrees that programs are bad, what alternatives are there? For behavioral issues (stealing cars, breaking stuff, getting kicked out of schools, etc..) programs offer to fix what parents can't figure out a way to do on their own. It's horse-shit but it works if you have a good sales-pitch and your customers are desperate.
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Can you just not comprehend it? Can you not understand what he and all those other children went through?
I'll just be blunt - are you THAT dense?
No she can't comprehend it... yet. Calling her dense isn't going to fix that and actually makes it less likely that we will have a chance to help her understand.
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Perhaps so. I'm definitely not cut out to deal with this... I just have a problem with someone who only cares about someone "out to make her feel guilty" complete with shakesperian over-complaining instead of daring to look at facts and specifics, look at what was done to her child, and *GASP* go find an actual psychologist to give her child some real therapy if he is willing instead of coersion and nonsense.
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Regardless of whether or not things turned out ok, it's important to realize that, in hindsight, you took a risk and placed your child in harms way by sending him/her to a facility that is unlicensed, unregulated, and run by people with no credentials other than questionable good intentions . Desperation and a lack of options is only a reason, not justification. If the child can admit his/her mistakes the parent had better do the same when it comes to the decision of subjecting them to an abusive environment, even when that decision is made in ignorance and desperation. This is not directed only at you(Charly), but at the mentality of most program parents to see no wrong in their decision to place their child in an unsafe environment. By unsafe I don't necessarily mean abusive, sending a child to an unregulated, unlicensed facility run by unqualified staff equals a non-justifiable risk and a serious err in the judgment of the parent
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Programs, LGATS... are abusive, are traumatic, and you don't seem to care about that, just about the 'product' - how your child acts once he gets out of it. Why?
My guess Is that it's because of guilt. It's not easy for parents to talk about what might/did have happend to their kid. At least her son seems to have survived the place intact (but time will tell... ptsd takes a while).
Nobody cares how you feel here. We care about the thousands of children going through hell right now!
And if you truly care about the kids you realise that the only way to help them is by reaching the parents.
Parents telling other parents "don't do what we did" is a lot more likely to be listened to than a kid telling a parent "don't put your kid through what i went through". That's a fact.
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I believe what my son tells me. He is fine.
A regular boarding school was not an option. He got kicked out of one. He interviewed and applied to 6 and was rejected from all because of getting kicked out of one. These schools don't take problems. There has never been a parent who has tried to bail out a kid more than I have. I defended him against the expulsion, did everything to help him get into another school,but it didn't work.
Knowing what I know now, I would look for something different post wilderness. But I did not know what I know now and I have no way to know what the result of a different choice would have been. I can't imagine my son could possibly be in any better place than he is right now.
I think this discussion is deteriorating and should take a break.
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I'm done then. In the real world when you reach your limit you're able to say enough and leave... and Im going to exercise that.
Sorry, Karen, its both useless to snap at you and hurting you won't possibly do any good, and two wrongs don't make a right... and hurting anyone is always bad, period.
Just give a little thought to what its like to have to go through that, and try to think about why people like me are so ticked off about all of this.
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Of course he could have come home after Carlbrook. I don't think you guys understand the opportunities he had at boarding school.
I've been to both boarding school and program. I liked boarding school. I really really liked it. It was an opportunity to be independant, and offered way more academic (among other things) opportunities than where I was at home. It had nothing to do with hating my parents (though i'm not always fond of them).
It was a big sacrifice for us to send him, but it was what he wanted academically and athletically. He chose the path that he thought would get him the best athletic training with strong academics so he could go to the type college he (He-not we) wanted. He came home every break and we went up to see him a lot and went on college and recruiting visits with him.
"We weren't ready for him" is a fair statement. He had done some horrible things to us and to our household. We did not trust that he was ready to come home and we did not have educational options here for him anyway. We were told very clearly by therapists that we trusted that it was too soon for him to come home.
Were these therapists associated with carlbrook? had they based their decision (even partially) on carlbrook's review/recommendations?
As I said, he NOW agrees with that. He just doesn't think Carlbrook was the right kind of place for him. He clearly stated this week that coming home would not have been the right thing for him and he would not be where he is right now if he had come home.
Niles- I'm sorry I can't say what you want me to say, which is that these two programs abused my son and I'm sorry I was a horrible, selfish parent who hated my kid. That's not the case. I am no longer convinced the TBS model is a good oneI think it has some serious flaws. I AM convinced my son's particular wilderness program is a good one.
Based on my research into your kid's wilderness program, and the lack of abuse accusations, I would have to agree. Wilderness is still a loaded gun. Out in the isolated wilds of nowhere, what can kids really do to report abuses if they happen?
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What the hell does wilderness isolation have to do with therapy or any beneficial effect?
What on earth does 'wilderness' do, or do the people do and wilderness is just a setting for it?
To me, I see people not used to living in dirt, dirty, unwashed, with shitty food and forced to rely on people they dont like who very well might be unpleasant (or worse) to them, considering most of the crux of wilderness programs is about pushing their buttons until they break down, making them do repetetive tasks and make fire, and then have outbursts from emotional nonsense and use facepaint and indian names.
And of course they can't say uncle and go home.
Unless this place is different...
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Ok, I just one question for now.. Was the therapist, who told you that it was to early for you son to come home, connected to the school.... did they have proper credentials.
@Nihil, Chillout it's ok you can't change the world all at once. And screaming makes us all deaf to what the screamer is yelling...
Were these therapists associated with carlbrook? had they based their decision (even partially) on carlbrook's review/recommendations?
It looks like we're all posting at the same time ::bwahaha::
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Both therapists were at the wilderness program- and another opinion was given by our home town therapist. This decision was made during wilderness and did not involve Carlbrook.
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STILL waiting on wilderness specifics.
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Has anyone else seen that show trading spouses before?
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I believe what my son tells me. He is fine.
And i'm sure he believes it too. He might even be totally fine (especially since he didn't break). Just consider the possibility that at some point in the future things might start bothering him and he might not know why until he looks back at Carlbrook.
LGAT techniques are powerful shit. It's damn near impossible to remain unaffected. The APA agrees that damage is not caused in all cases, but it happens a lot.
The thing is, he's male, and it's often hard for males to admit problems, if he starts having anxiety, or other symptoms of PTSD, he might not report it out of shame.
That being said, it is up to him to figure out if he was truly unaffected by the program and nobody here or anywhere can tell you definitively if he was or not.
A regular boarding school was not an option. He got kicked out of one.
This is why it was not viable Niles.
He interviewed and applied to 6 and was rejected from all because of getting kicked out of one. These schools don't take problems. There has never been a parent who has tried to bail out a kid more than I have. I defended him against the expulsion, did everything to help him get into another school,but it didn't work.
Knowing what I know now, I would look for something different post wilderness. But I did not know what I know now and I have no way to know what the result of a different choice would have been.
It could have been better or worse. In any case, it would seem as if you removed him before he broke. If you had heeded Carlbrook's advice, and forced him to stay, he would have broken (i'm pretty sure of that). It's what happend to me. After my parents rejected my pleas for help... I felt hopeless. And i gave my mind to the program...
What i was not told at the time (go figure) was that my parents had actually tried to have me removed, but... long story short, the program killed that idea by insisting that i be removed immediately (which they knew was not possible).
I thought at the time that they just didn't give a fuck, that they were ok with what was happening all around me... That they approved of it.
What i didn't know, was that they were never given details of what "emotional growth" went on (even on request). They simply assumed that the counselors were qualified. Benchmark claims that their counselors are qualified but since California has no regulation on qualifications... a counselor with no qualifications is technically qualified. Of course my parents had no way of knowing this.
I can't imagine my son could possibly be in any better place than he is right now.
I think this discussion is deteriorating and should take a break.
sure. a break is better than a flamewar.
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Does carlbrook have both girls and boys at the school and are the allowed to interact? How much is it like a normal school in day to day activities, or is it more like a treatment center, or even just a wharehouse?
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STILL waiting on wilderness specifics.
And yeah... we can avoid a flamewar, we can say "enough", but those children can't.
Be glad, and do try to remember that. We can say enough, we can say we're about to blow up, they MAKE them blow up and cry, and punish them for it.
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Niles water torture might finally make someone start spewing some specifics! :rofl:
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What the hell does wilderness isolation have to do with therapy or any beneficial effect?
Introspection perhaps? If it's done properly, with qualified staff (licenced Phds, doctors, etc), and there is proper oversight and a way to report abuse, I see no problem. it can be good for kids to get away from society. Ever go to camp as a kid? It ain't that bad. It's actually fun.
What on earth does 'wilderness' do, or do the people do and wilderness is just a setting for it?
To me, I see people not used to living in dirt, dirty, unwashed, with shitty food and forced to rely on people they dont like who very well might be unpleasant (or worse) to them, considering most of the crux of wilderness programs is about pushing their buttons until they break down, making them do repetetive tasks and make fire, and then have outbursts from emotional nonsense and use facepaint and indian names.
Licenced therapists don't do that shit or they could lose their licences. This program does not appear to be about breaking the kids down at all.
The place's webpage actually rails against BM, negative re-enforcement, and coersion.
And of course they can't say uncle and go home.
Unless this place is different...
It is. The staff is decked with PHDs and doctors. They have loads and loads of safegaurds in place as well. It's insanely expensive though. (which makes sense considering the extent they claim to go through to keep the kids safe)
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Carlbrook has the appearance of a nice southern prep school. The boys wear ties to class. The academics are fairly strong- the best of any TBS. The kids go on to good colleges. The academic faculty tends to think the emotional growth part is bs. It was a teacher who mentored my son and encouraged him to try to get out of Carlbrook and go to a regular prep boarding school. There are some fields for sports and a basketball court and a decent weight room. There is now a new dining hall which is supposed to be nice. The days are structured like a regular school, but with group therapy in the afternoon. (not every day). There is some community service work. The commons building is really nice- there is an art room and a lot of kids have musical instruments.
There are boys and girls and they do interact. They are not permitted to have romantic relationships, but they do. If someone thinks a couple is getting too close, they get put on bans with each other and are not allowed to speak.
It is the closest thing to a regular boarding school I could find. It wasn't close enough for my son- no computer, no cell phone, too much therapy and no real sports.
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Hey Charly, I just wanted to point out that you're right about the lack of options in difficult cases. That's an issue teen advocates need to take seriously if we want to truly stop parents from falling into the troubled-teen industry pitfall.
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STILL waiting on wilderness specifics.
@Charley.
This ain't ST. if you want to mention the wilderness program here it would probably help people understand. (or not). The place seems legit and I haven't found a single negative mention of it on anti-program sites (which is really really rare)
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Then why does it use remoteness? Why the element of coersion that WAS present with the carlbrook kids?
If its WILLING and NOT FORCED, I could understand by someone who wants to be "away from it all" would go run away from all the nonsense to be introspective, but more often than not, its not willing, its not uncoersive, and kids have it picked for them.
Also, what if you just want to go before the date comes, but don't have a complete psychological crisis? Has nobody given thought to that?
I do know when I was a kid I HATED the thought of being sent off or sent away to anything, and the one time I was put in daycare I took my sister with me and walked over 3 miles to get home, so maybe I'm just weird... I wouldn't want to be in an alien environment with no familiarity and comforts of home if I was needing to 'grow' or 'heal' or 'thrive' or any other such buzzword, and I don't see why anyone else would, unless they are from an abusvie home, of course.
I can see why that would be beneficial for trying to break them down, however.
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Thanks, psy. Nihil- I just don't feel like arguing with you about wilderness right now. Maybe another time. Psy is summing it up pretty well. Yes, there are levels and there are rules. It is hard to run away.
I believe it is a quality program and I think if I could have left my son there for a year it might have been the best thing. There was the problem of academics. The program was very willing to adapt to what my son/we needed. They even took him out of the field to a motel for a night and let him take his private school entrance exam at Oakley after Carlbrook messed up the opportunity for him to take the test.
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Second Nature- Utah.
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You can't just say something and not back it up, becuase as he said, this is not ST.
And don't think I'll just bow down or forget about this, I'm not going to sit here and let you advocate something you can't even discuss in any level of detail!
If you're too flustered, then go get unflustered, but don't think I'm going to just go "oh okay I'll let you just say it", because I'm not.
At any rate, on FORNITS, you dont get a request for specifics and say "I'm not arguing with you about it". Its not an arguement, its a request for specifics, and you can't hide behind a top-to-bottom hierarchial "stfu" in other words here.
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I'll write more about it tomorrow. Want to watch Without a Trace right now.
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Then go do it, you're not chained to the computer nor coersed to write here.
Just realize that a lot of people ARE forced to respond to stuff they do not want to, and they're a lot younger than you or I.
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Thanks for answering my previous inquiries. I have a few more if you don't mind.
Is there a level system?
Is there a peer review system (do kids get put in charge of other kids)?
Is there repititious auditory therapy (repeated tapes or music)?
Any type of extended seminar, rap or group therapy session?
What are the living conditions like? Do they share a room, or do they live dorm style in a big large room all together? How are the bathroom faciltiies, private, or group shared?
Are they allowed to keep stereos and radios in there room, or any other electronic device such as a laptop?
What type of contact with parents do they allow? Phone calls, letters, email? How often, do you have to obtain a certain level?
How often is therapy received? Daily? Biweekly, weekly, and for how long? Do these therapists keep confidential or do they share this information with other staff?
Is there isolation punishment at Carlbrook?
Are all kids allowed to play sports, allowed to eat the same foods, allowed the same basic privelages or is this all level based?
Do the boys and girls interact at Carlbroook? Are the classes segregated by sexes, how close are their dorks, do they get to interact afterhours or during the day, how does that work?
Is there a fence around the campus? How close is it to the city? Have many kids run away from the facility? Is it in a bad area of town?
What is included in the monthly cost? Do they add on many more fees after you place your child, like uniforms and doctor fees?
Do they accept and treat psychologically damaged teens, with bipolar, severe depression, etc? WIll they disperse psychotropic meds to the kids if they are prescribed before attending the school?
How long is the typical graduation time?
Do they require every kid go to wilderness before entering the school? Is the wilderness company associated with them finanially?
These will get us started on specifics.
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WILDERNESS SPECIFICS.
Plus, she has already answered a lot about CARLBROOK.
Do not try to obfuscate or jack this thread, 'cause it ain't happenin'.
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Carlbrook has the appearance of a nice southern prep school. The boys wear ties to class. The academics are fairly strong- the best of any TBS. The kids go on to good colleges. The academic faculty tends to think the emotional growth part is bs.
Not surprised at all. They are more likely more educated than the rest of the staff.
It was a teacher who mentored my son and encouraged him to try to get out of Carlbrook and go to a regular prep boarding school. There are some fields for sports and a basketball court and a decent weight room. There is now a new dining hall which is supposed to be nice. The days are structured like a regular school, but with group therapy in the afternoon. (not every day). There is some community service work. The commons building is really nice- there is an art room and a lot of kids have musical instruments.
There are boys and girls and they do interact. They are not permitted to have romantic relationships, but they do. If someone thinks a couple is getting too close, they get put on bans with each other and are not allowed to speak.
It is the closest thing to a regular boarding school I could find. It wasn't close enough for my son- no computer, no cell phone, too much therapy and no real sports.
Carlbrook sounds, from a parent's perspective, almost exactly like benchmark.
Did you ever wonder why they wouldn't allow your kid to have a phone / computer?
Did you ever wonder how they "knew" kids were having relationships?
Did you ever know about the "snitching" aspect of the program?
Did carlbrook have qualified (phd / licenced psychologist) staff? on hand who actually did the counseling? were any counselors not qualified?
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WILDERNESS SPECIFICS.
Plus, she has already answered a lot about CARLBROOK.
Do not try to obfuscate or jack this thread, 'cause it ain't happenin'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism)
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WILDERNESS SPECIFICS.
Plus, she has already answered a lot about CARLBROOK.
Do not try to obfuscate or jack this thread, 'cause it ain't happenin'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentrism)
:rofl: :rofl:
Oh, now we're getting 100% programmie here, gonna attack me instead of answer a question that needs to be answered?
Nice ad-hominem.
[troll1]
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WILDERNESS SPECIFICS.
Plus, she has already answered a lot about CARLBROOK.
Do not try to obfuscate or jack this thread, 'cause it ain't happenin'.
you got the website already. second nature, utah. they don't use bm, they have sat phones and medics in all groups, they have licenced therapists.
Second Nature Wilderness Program is NOT a boot camp for troubled teens. In fact, Second Nature Wilderness Program strongly disputes the enduring efficacy of any boot camp program for troubled youth. Boot camps, by design, are behavior modification paradigms, using coercion and hardship to negatively reinforce appropriate behavior. Second Nature is not a teen boot camp and has no affiliation with any such programs. Second Nature is a wilderness therapy program that provides psychoeducation, sophisticated and individualized therapy, and wilderness realism to highlight choices and consequences for your troubled teen, which aids in guiding students toward long term ambitions.
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So if this is where Carlbrook sends their bad kiddos, what happens if the bad kid remains bad, does this place kick them out?
And anyway, what I'm asking for is something to be put in this thread about specifically what this place does and what the day to day life is like, and how the consentuality issue is addressed.
Basically, if a kid doesnt like it, can he leave? Can he leave after being semi-coersed against it? Are they allowed hygene and decent nutritious food instead of beans/lentils? Are they forced into anything at all?
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Answer the damn questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One more nail through your vampire like heart.
Ask yourself: "Will that comment be more likely to get her to answer the questions or not?"
If the answer is "yes"... you're program staff
If the answer is "no"... you're probably right
If the answer is "i don't care"... why throw a spanner in the thread?
she's watching a tv program... give her the benefit of the doubt. Why do I bother you wonder? Becuase to me, she represents the most difficult parent to reach.
Think about why that's important to me.
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Well your patience and restraint is pretty herioc. I've never even set eyes on a true-blue program, psy - you did more than just survive one, you got out of one, and here you are, and here I am.
I hope you can actually instigate some comprehension, not just 'open dialogue'... talking at eachother doesn't really get us anywhere, actually understanding, does.
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Well your patience and restraint is pretty herioc. I've never even set eyes on a true-blue program, psy - you did more than just survive one, you got out of one, and here you are, and here I am.
I hope you can actually instigate some comprehension, not just 'open dialogue'... talking at eachother doesn't really get us anywhere, actually understanding, does.
Talking, unless it turns to conflict, inevitably results in understanding. Harsh confrontations are the realm of programs (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html#The%20Continuum%20of%20Influence:%20A%20Proposal).
Thanks for the compliment though. I'm sure Charley will be back later to answer the questions. She's a lawyer, just keep it civil and use reason. My guess is she won't walk away from a discussion / argument as long as it stays away from insults.
Yeah i know she has a bad rap here. But let's try and give her a chance. She has a username, she's avoiding attacks. So far so good.
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Thanks for the info Psy it looks like a good program. Nihil, I don't like programs or sending kids away but that does not make every program bad. I think Charly's explained herself well, her son appears to be doing well and that's the important thing. She made a difficult decision and seems to have struck gold with the wilderness program.
I wanted to discuss this stuff with a parent, and she's done that. Don't get all aggressive with her, you can voice your disagreements and agree to disagree in a non threating(or condescending) manner. If you're looking for her to say that the place is hell regardless of her(and her son's) impression you're just fighting a fruitless battle. I know how easy it is to lose sight of mutual respect when debating an issue filled with so much passion on both sides, but it's those debates that such respect is needed the most. And honestly we're all arguing the same point from different angles.... That point being that The well being of a child should not be compromised by neither unscrupulous facilities or a lack of access to appropriate therapeutic options.
And if your just pissed at the moment take a break..
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The issue of abandonment, isolation, and being put into a completely alien environment can't simply be put to the wayside. I have heard professionals say that removing a child from an abusive home into a foster home (which is no program, ideally anyway...) can actually still be harmful because they lose everything when that is done, not just the abuse.
So then why is it all songbirds and sunshine if its a program? Losing your friends, family, freedom, comforts and autonomy and being on someone else's clock is not insignifigant enough to be overlooked.
My biggest beef besides the #800 gorilla that is lack of proof of any good done is what I have said above, and I really don't get why its so rarely addressed.
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Shortly after I drop an asteroid on Jamaica?
Oh wait, is that just out-of-this-world daydreaming or terrerism? :roll:
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Kind of hard to burn down a wilderness program. They will just move the registration trailer somewhere down the road.
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Nukes ruin whole countries for eons.... ::hehehmm::
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Aren't they already marching the kids out over where the atomic testing was done pretty much? Hey johnny, watch out for the crater!
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That's New Mexico/Nevada.... and that place seems pretty cordoned off. It would be pretty cool to find some trinitite, though!
At any rate I really wish they'd hurry up and dig up that ship all this nonsense came off of :rofl: funny how all this shit started up not too long after Roswell.
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Niles- You aren't going to like this, but my son deserved to lose all those things at that particular time. He agrees with that. He lost the right to have them. That's what a "consequence" is all about. Wilderness was a consequence as well as a therapeutic opportunity.
This was 3 1/2 years ago. I will write tomorrow what I can remember about the day to day structure of the program. I know the head therapist was in the field with the group two days a week. The support (field) staff was good- no, they did not have advanced degrees, but my son thought most of them were pretty good. They had pretty basic food, but it was varied. The groups were single sex. They hiked pretty far each day but had some days off from hiking. They learned a lot about the flora and fauna of the region and the stars etc. They had phases they had to work through. They were required to write a letter home every week which got faxed to us. They had to read their impact letters that we (parents) wrote out loud to the group. These were very telling because the story thekid had presented to the group was quite a bit different than what the parents revealed in the letter. Staff was in constant touch with the head therapist throughout the week for updates and changes to the kid's program and assignments. They did several solos. I think my son did a 2 or 3 day solo during his second stint. He liked it. He read a lot and wrote a lot. They could have cameras and he took pictures. He was in a group with some pretty bad kids (some with real social problems) because of the thing with the escorts and some of them really tested his tolerance level. Working with one of them actually became one of his assignments. We didn't get a civil letter for about a month or 6 weeks. We spent a couple hours a week on the phone with the therapists. We could call the field office for info at any time. They were good with necessary meds (asthma, Advil etc). A PhD psychologist administered a battery of clinical tests out in the field and wrote a report which was extremely comprehensive.
During the last week we had a couple of phone conversations with our son on the satellite phone. He was not told when he was leaving, but he had to agree to the next placement before he could leave. We went for his transition and spent the night in the field with him and the other kids/parents who were leaving. We did some therapy sessions both in group and alone with our son and the therapist and our son cooked us dinner at our campsite.
That's all for now.
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What the hell do I care why, when, how, or what went on with Karen's kid?
:P
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Sorry- duplicate
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Hells Bells! What's with all the program apologists burrowing into Fornits? Have they found a home for their wayward souls?
Look, Niles is right. Most of the kids forced into these so-called emotional growth boarding schools don't need to be detained in a highly restrictive, custodial facility which in and of itself, opens the door to the potential for abuse. They are the victims of a failed marriage. Over achieving parents. Dysfunctional family units. They are in essence, being blamed for the failure of their parents. This has been brought out through research and testimonals.
Second: A good program does not pay for referrals. A good program does not use coercive thought control to cure teens of unwanted behavior otherwise known as "adolescence".
Parents who ship their kids off to locked boarding schools sight unseen are guilty of negligence. Using a transport service should not be an option. Parents who can't take their kids themselves have other options. They are just too lazy or rich to explore them. Schools who accept kids taken by force should be BANNED. The list goes on. But Niles is on board tonight, and I trust he will drive these points and others home, if things get too apologetic. :lol:
Carry on folks. In the end, parents must ask themselves what they would do if these private lock-down facilities didn't exist. Hmmm??? Anybody have an answer?
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Second Wilderness...
Please................ spare me.. Take two seconds to look over what they claim to treat.
Then use common sense.
Can you connect the dots of these letters?
F
r
a
u
d
While i would normally agree with you, I can't find any allegations of abuse. You have to admit that is rare for a program. It does happen though... programs do slip under the radar... but after looking at their website, seeing the amount of staff and their qualifications, and the lengths they claim to go to to protect the kids... It does look legit. I still support shutting the entire industry down because in my mind it isn't worth the risk.
There is no discussion here really. Just the same cyclic sematics. More rhetoric of the same sad sort that fornits is becoming famous for. What the hell do I care why, when, how, or what went on with Karen's kid?
Then why are you posting in this thread at this time, when the conversation is exactly that? Don't let your bitterness get the better of you.
Most of it is stuff of internet legends. We haven't heard the uncensored truth from her own kid. We never will. He either won't post on Fornits, or he will post but knows mum is watching like a hawk. So will we ever get his unfilter version of the story?
Ever occur to you that he might not want to. Loads of kids I know just want to "leave it in the past" or "forget about it". You know what i'm talking about.
The kid's not living with the parent, why should he fear what his mom has to say about his postings.
Not a fracking chance.
The only question in my mind is when do we get a god damn flame thrower and reduce Second Nature and Carlbrook to ashes?
When we get the parents to convince other parents not to be stupid. There are loads of ways to kill programs, one of which is explaining to parents of program kids exactly what happened to their kids in program, having them talk to their kids about it, and seeing where it goes from there. If nothing else it gets parents and kids closer together, helping to heal the rift that the program creates.
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Punishment STILL is not therapy, Karen. Talk to ANY psychologist and they would tell you an austere environment and/or punishment or any programmie nonsense is not what you do to help fix a child who has actual problems.
If they have problems, you dont punish, you help, you treat, you find out what's wrong. Yet somehow we seem to have simultaneously punitive.. nonsense thats ineffective and more about revenge than anything else intertwined with quackery!
It is good to know at least to your face he acts like he deserved it... he definitely learned well from carlbrook in that regard at the least.
But yeah, forced reading of "impact" :rofl: (where do you people come up with this nonsense? Why not just call it 'intended to cause a breakdown or psychological effect' letter...) before group? Forced writing of a letter that is FAXED and thus seen by staff?
Thats not therapeutic, not helpful in any way, and its nonsense, period.
So he learned about plants animals and stars and shit, but what does that have to do with his actual problems and the camp's practices which are questionable at best?
Were those "solo's" forced? What if the kid didn't like it and was made to? I'm sure we all saw bratcamp... all that touchy feely nonsense doesn't really materialize in the real world, and isolation can be really bad to a kid who is not of the sort who would benefit from it with introspection. Panic can set in and while thats good for thought reform, its a bad thing for a person and a horrible thing to allow to happen.
Also, as we've learned from the counselors who have posted here, they are watching anyway, just far away and give verbal warning before coming up so they dont catch the kid masturbating, which clearly necessitates all that time alone :roll:
BTW, just what is this "group therapy" you speak of, Karen? Is it anything like the IMPACT LETTERS? Confrontational and humiliation based?
Also, do you not see the problem with not letting someone know when they can get out?
And why would you have to agree on the next placement before you can go anywhere? How is that therapetuic?
No offence to Psy, but this seems just like every other wilderness camp... using isolation and austerity (an extreme, isolated environment) and literally dispensing survival to these people, forcing them to do things, psycho-nonsense like IMPACT LETTERS and not knowing whats going on.
I'm gonna side with TSW on this one. Its nonsense. I see no actual therapy and a lot of the same old bullshit with a brand new wrapper.
Oh, and what sort of punishments or coersion did they use to people who didn't do what they were told, Karen?
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They had phases they had to work through. They were required to write a letter home every week which got faxed to us. They had to read their impact letters that we (parents) wrote out loud to the group. These were very telling because the story the kid had presented to the group was quite a bit different than what the parents revealed in the letter. Staff was in constant touch with the head therapist throughout the week for updates and changes to the kid's program and assignments.
One solution fits all. So the parents publically humiliate their kids as therapy? Think back to your teenage years and think what your parents would have said about you. Think about more vindictive parents who take it as their first time to air all their grievences. Then the whole group gets to see you breakdown emotionally.
He was in a group with some pretty bad kids (some with real social problems) because of the thing with the escorts and some of them really tested his tolerance level. Working with one of them actually became one of his assignments.
Do you think the other kid's parents were paying all that money, for your kid to help him with his severe social problems? Do you think your kid might have been fearful during his stay?
We didn't get a civil letter for about a month or 6 weeks.
It takes time for hopelessness to settle in completely.
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Hells Bells! What's with all the program apologists burrowing into Fornits? Have they found a home for their wayward souls?
There are no program apologists here AFAIK. You wouldn't believe the things I privately advocate to take out programs *waves to you know who*. I hate programs. Hate them. Personal experience.
This is not about advocating or attacking, at least not to me, it's about open exchange of information. I believe that if people honestly knew what went on in these programs their minds would change.
Carry on folks. In the end, parents must ask themselves what they would do if these private lock-down facilities didn't exist. Hmmm??? Anybody have an answer?
That is a question we need to definitively answer... And if we could, the demand for programs would drop. No demand, no supply. You want one way to kill programs? That's how.
I have too much on my plate right now (a program to crush, a certain ED-con organization to humiliate, a portfolio, etc etc...) If people can come up with some good program alternatives... great.
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Hells Bells! What's with all the program apologists burrowing into Fornits? Have they found a home for their wayward souls?
Look, Niles is right. Most of the kids forced into these so-called emotional growth boarding schools don't need to be detained in a highly restrictive, custodial facility which in and of itself, opens the door to the potential for abuse. They are the victims of a failed marriage. Over achieving parents. Dysfunctional family units. They are in essence, being blamed for the failure of their parents. This has been brought out through research and testimonals.
Second: A good program does not pay for referrals. A good program does not use coercive thought control to cure teens of unwanted behavior otherwise known as "adolescence".
Parents who ship their kids off to locked boarding schools sight unseen are guilty of negligence. Using a transport service should not be an option. Parents who can't take their kids themselves have other options. They are just too lazy or rich to explore them. Schools who accept kids taken by force should be BANNED. The list goes on. But Niles is on board tonight, and I trust he will drive these points and others home, if things get too apologetic. :lol:
Carry on folks. In the end, parents must ask themselves what they would do if these private lock-down facilities didn't exist. Hmmm??? Anybody have an answer?
It would make my night if you'd come out of the shadows and send me a PM or otherwise contact me (instant messenger...) so I know who you are. I can keep a secret... I've kept plenty already as you already (don't) know.
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In the end, parents must ask themselves what they would do if these private lock-down facilities didn't exist. Hmmm??? Anybody have an answer?
Pay some street thugs to rough up their kid for a while so they fearfully come home in appreciation for what they have?
Go back in time 150 years, send my kid out west to spend some time with the native indians and have him partake in a coming of age ceremony where he is left out in the wilderness for a few days?
Put 100 doses of LSD in my kid's breakfast cereal, then tie them down and force them to watch barney for weeks on end until they are a huggable, loveable, child like creature once again?
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BTW -
Speaking as someone who used to have very severe social problems (becuase OF school and at least one of my parents...) I can say most certainly that a wilderness place and being forced to walk cheek to jowl with people of the full spectrum of adolescense, manipulated (as easily as I would have been in my younger years.. jeeze :scared: ) humiliated and terrified, would have fucked me up PRETTY damn good.
I also woulda bought into all this nonsense hook line and sinker too, for that matter :(
You dont fix someone without social skills by doing this to them! You dont humiliate and fuck up and hurt and beat down, you build up, and I needed a fuck of a lot of the building up. Know how I did that? I got in a car and drove myself to friends I made and hung out with people who I got along with and who had a mutual sense of respect and understanding with. Oddly, it was more with people over the age of 30 than my own age at the time (late teens) but... well, it definitely worked.
This one size fits all QUACKERY really, really really sucks and burns my ass, especially knowing what this kind of 'treatment' would have done to my former self, and how well I would have fit into the sights of a program looking to get a new cash cow. Thankfully if that actually happened my mom would have jumped in before too long, and for that matter my father was a tightwad with money. Phew!
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In the end, parents must ask themselves what they would do if these private lock-down facilities didn't exist. Hmmm??? Anybody have an answer?
Pay some street thugs to rough up their kid for a while so they fearfully come home in appreciation for what they have?
Go back in time 150 years, send my kid out west to spend some time with the native indians and have him partake in a coming of age ceremony where he is left out in the wilderness for a few days?
Put 100 doses of LSD in my kid's breakfast cereal, then tie them down and force them to watch barney for weeks on end until they are a huggable, loveable, child like creature once again?
The kid would move out and grow up!
Now we have childhood that extends into the early 30's so we gotta keep them under our thumb and made back into an obedient child and fixed instead of allowed to get out, spread their wings, and poop on someones head on their way out.
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Niles- You aren't going to like this, but my son deserved to lose all those things at that particular time. He agrees with that. He lost the right to have them. That's what a "consequence" is all about. Wilderness was a consequence as well as a therapeutic opportunity.
This was 3 1/2 years ago. I will write tomorrow what I can remember about the day to day structure of the program. I know the head therapist was in the field with the group two days a week. The support (field) staff was good- no, they did not have advanced degrees,
1 red flag
but my son thought most of them were pretty good. They had pretty basic food, but it was varied. The groups were single sex. They hiked pretty far each day but had some days off from hiking. They learned a lot about the flora and fauna of the region and the stars etc. They had phases they had to work through. They were required to write a letter home every week which got faxed to us. They had to read their impact letters that we (parents) wrote out loud to the group.
That concerns me greatly. 2 red flags.
These were very telling because the story thekid had presented to the group was quite a bit different than what the parents revealed in the letter.
Could that be at least partially because of a difference of opinion/perspective?
Staff was in constant touch with the head therapist throughout the week for updates and changes to the kid's program and assignments. They did several solos.
What were the safety precautions on the solos?
I think my son did a 2 or 3 day solo during his second stint. He liked it. He read a lot and wrote a lot. They could have cameras and he took pictures. He was in a group with some pretty bad kids (some with real social problems)
My one concern on their website was the range of problems they claim to treat... Some such as ADHD, are not problems that can be fixed at all.
3 red flags.
because of the thing with the escorts and some of them really tested his tolerance level. Working with one of them actually became one of his assignments.
assignments? curious. the escorts worked at the program? were they there to provide security?
We didn't get a civil letter for about a month or 6 weeks.
4 red flags.
We spent a couple hours a week on the phone with the therapists. We could call the field office for info at any time. They were good with necessary meds (asthma, Advil etc). A PhD psychologist administered a battery of clinical tests out in the field and wrote a report which was extremely comprehensive.
I don't expect you to answer but i assume it was mainly negative... slanted towards "your kid needs to be in program... not at home"... carlbrook referrs to this place it seems... and they refer to carlbrook on a regular basis... coincidence?
Licenced therapists reduce the risk (they are scared of losing their licences) but does not eliminate it entirely.
During the last week we had a couple of phone conversations with our son on the satellite phone.
was he allowed to phone before the last couple weeks? if not it's a big red flag.
He was not told when he was leaving, but he had to agree to the next placement before he could leave.
BIG red flag. 6 now.
We went for his transition and spent the night in the field with him and the other kids/parents who were leaving. We did some therapy sessions both in group and alone with our son and the therapist and our son cooked us dinner at our campsite.
That's all for now.
cool. thanks for answering the questions.
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Charlie- you mentioned not wanting to go into what specifically your son had done to go to Wilderness tbs etc. i think that this is commendable. I also have heard a lot obout the idea of impact letters sent from parents.
f a kid has misbehaved badly, i see no problem with the parents making them aware of the effect this behaviour had on the family, but to me the idea of making it publc and forcing kids to share it with the rest of the group seems pretty abhorrent. Surely this is between the parent and the kid not the rest of the world. Public shaming is not really a natural consequence for any adult. if you screw up at work for instance it is rare that the boss will publically yell at you.
You also mentioned that the whole point of wilderness was to take away priveliges that the kid had before so that they realise how good they had it. The idea of natural consequences is again a theme of many Wilderness places that I have come across. But to my mind the natural consequence of misbehaving for your son was to be kicked out of a boarding school that he liked. What made you go with Wilderness therapy over a stint in the Public School system? What was it about that option that you were unable to pursue?
Oz Girl
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Punishment STILL is not therapy, Karen. Talk to ANY psychologist and they would tell you an austere environment and/or punishment or any programmie nonsense is not what you do to help fix a child who has actual problems.
If they have problems, you dont punish, you help, you treat, you find out what's wrong. Yet somehow we seem to have simultaneously punitive.. nonsense thats ineffective and more about revenge than anything else intertwined with quackery!
It is good to know at least to your face he acts like he deserved it... he definitely learned well from carlbrook in that regard at the least.
That's why i asked when he first said he "admitted" that. Coerced "admissions" are quite common in program. It takes away any doubt in the parent's mind about the decision to send/keep the kid in program. (that's the point)
@Charley
Btw. When did he first admit that?
But yeah, forced reading of "impact" :rofl: (where do you people come up with this nonsense? Why not just call it 'intended to cause a breakdown or psychological effect' letter...) before group? Forced writing of a letter that is FAXED and thus seen by staff?
I aggree. monitored communication at any time in the program would be the biggest warning sign to me.
@Charley,
Did they monitor phone calls, or allow them at all, earlier in the program?
Thats not therapeutic, not helpful in any way, and its nonsense, period.
i aggree
Also, do you not see the problem with not letting someone know when they can get out?
@charley
What i think niles is getting at is that wilderness programs often tell kids "comply or you'll be here forever... hahaahah" (though in not such a cliché manner) You might think us as in the same realm as compiracy theorists, but these things have happened... a lot.
And why would you have to agree on the next placement before you can go anywhere? How is that therapetuic?
Carlbrook <---> Second Nature
symbiotic relationship?
No offence to Psy, but this seems just like every other wilderness camp... using isolation and austerity (an extreme, isolated environment) and literally dispensing survival to these people, forcing them to do things, psycho-nonsense like IMPACT LETTERS and not knowing whats going on.
I never said it was legit. I said based on it's website it seemed to be. I hadn't talked to Karen much about the details. Now that she has explaind a bit about it... my opinion is very different. Too many warning signs (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/warningsigns.asp). I can easily understand, however why parents do not recognize the significance of some of these things. You ne.ed to explain it on the simplest manner so the parents don't have to have an in depth knowledge of the TTI.
I'm gonna side with TSW on this one. Its nonsense. I see no actual therapy and a lot of the same old bullshit with a brand new wrapper.
Oh, and what sort of punishments or coersion did they use to people who didn't do what they were told, Karen?
Tsw is probably correct knowing what Karen has now told us. I'm 70/30 now in my judgement of Second Nature... (leaning towards "it's probably not such a nice place")
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The whole theory its based on is WHACK. I can make a ground stone therapy facility that is nice. At this place we grind up sea stones, and then when you eat the stone paste, it cures all sorts of internal cancers. Does it really matter how nice the place is? My cure is bunk.
(but at least it gives them a nice place to die and the families dont have to deal with them)
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I'm still in a bit of a knot here (mentally) about why shed openly talk about "IMPACT LETTERS" :rofl: after lurking fornits enough to learn thats not a good thing in any way whatsoever, and try to say that "wilderness was good for him".
I'll make a good wilderness experience! Big fuckin' pickup truck, an aresenal of weapons, some frozen or otherwise preserved foods we cant make ourselves (sausage, beer, mmm) a satellite and a TV, inflatable air mattresses, tent, GRILLE, and go kill us some deer and go fishing and just have a blast shooting stuff, cutting up, doing donuts in a clearing and scaring off all the bunnies we didn't run over and do Emer Fudd impressions. And your "takehome" is an orange hat, some antlers and some pretty nice game meat!
Where can I start up that lil program?
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I said beer, numnutz.
You gonna bring them boys with you to help wif our scatterguns?
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There is info on Second Nature here, but it's difficult to find due to the inadequate search function. "Second" and/or "Nature" will return overwhelming results. Second Nature is frequently referred to as SNW, 2N or 2NWP, and the search function won't find any of those.
Here's a couple. If you want to know what goes on in 2N on a day-to-day basis, you need to ask the kids or staff. Parents know what they are told by the program or what their kid feels safe enough to divulge.
These two survivors could give you insight.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ure#221995 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=221995&highlight=nature#221995)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=40&Sort= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=14548&forum=9&start=40&Sort=)
That they can call it 'therapy' is bad enough, but Education loans for Wilderness? and Ammoritized loans?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ure#228939 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=228939&highlight=nature#228939)
On the Native American nostalgia issue:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ure#200837 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=200837&highlight=nature#200837)
Utah has the best regs for Wilderness, but that doesn't insure programs follow them. On national TV during the Brat Camp series, I noticed several blatant violations of regs. Viewers wouldn't even notice unless they were familiar with Oregon regs.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ush#118710 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=118710&highlight=mush#118710)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ush#118773 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=118773&highlight=mush#118773)
Two excerpts from the History of Wilderness I'm working on:
Outward Bound 60s
Outward Bound was brought to the United States in the 1960's by German educator Kurt Hahn, who stressed overcoming self-perceived limitations
71- One of the most extensively developed off-shoots of Outward Bound is Project Adventure (PA). Based in Covington, Georgia
Jerry Pieh who helped his father start the Minnesota Outward Bound School... Pieh wrote a proposal to the federal Office of Education to bring the ideology of Outward Bound to a traditional school setting. The project was funded in 1971 and was named Project Adventure
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:sFs ... clnk&cd=25 (http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:sFscl6nL45gJ:www.socwel.ku.edu/occ/projects/cmh/BestPracticesReport7.pdf+%22Dallas+Salesmanship+Club%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=25)
Larry Dean Olsen and Doug Nelson- Department of Youth Leadership at Brigham Young University, that came into existence in the late 1960's (Program used at AAA and Anasazi)
80s Olsen sought out third party payers, insurance. recognition by insurance companies and state agencies has been a key component to increasing the legitimacy and accessibility of OBH programs
accreditation by agencies such as The Council on Accreditation (COA) and The Joint Council on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO) increases credibility of OBH programs and, consequently, increases the likelihood that insurance companies will reimburse.
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Is there anything you don't know deb? :lol:
Do you work as a researcher or something?
You should once programs are done for.
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This is a Carlbrook thread, not a Second Nature thread.
I was posting because I was asked for some information. I tried to give it and my purpose is not to argue and defend. I simply am not going to do that here. I will be glad to answer PMs if you want more detail about my son's situation or the program. It is impossible to convey the full nature of the experience to someone who has not been to this particular program or met these therapists (this re: Second Nature). I can assure you that my son is not holding anything back and even at one point asked me if I would lend money to the single mother of one of his Dallas friends so that the boy could go to 2N.
1. There is no affiliation between Carbrook, 2N and any escort service. 2N sends a few kids to Carlbrook (C-brook is very selective about who they accept and most kids don't fit the profile) but more to other programs or RTCs. Carlbrook does send some kids BACK to 2N, but usually Georgia or some of the other wilderness programs in the SE closer to C-brook. The escorts did not work at 2N.
2. 2N can work with a variety of issues because there are a number of different groups and therapists. The group you are in is not a random assignment.
3. The test report on my son drew no conclusion about programs and did not mention any. It was a very professional assessment and we have been told by several unrelated medical and mental health professionals that it is one of the most comprehensive, well-written reports they have ever seen.
4. I did not say the whole point of wilderness was to take away privileges and make the kid appreciate what he had at home. That is incorrect. The strength of wilderness is that the distractions of the home environment (music, friends, drugs etc., family, cars) are removed. It is just the kids, nature and the therapists. My son came away from there wanting to do a long solo camping trip. They do have to earn privileges (eating utensils etc) by fulfilling requirements. I am not going to go into public detail about my son working with the difficult boy, but it was effective for both kids.
5. Impact letters- I guess you had to be there. It worked. The kids did not feel coerced. They weren't reading these in church or at school. They were reading them to a group of peers with whom they were establishing a bond. The parents were helped with the letters- they were not filled with accusations and blame. They were factual and effective. The kids replies to parents were not censored (I assure you of that- our first letter from son read, "Do not believe anything the therapist Devan tells you. They just want to keep kids here long so they can make money.")
6. Solos- lots of safety precautions- staff checked on the kids and brought them food. They were not sent out on solo until they were willing and ready. It was something the kids WANTED to do.
7. 2N was not at all based on humiliation or breaking down. It is based on building up self esteem.
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Charly, I appreciate what you wrote to a bunch of us, honestly I do but I'm sorry. I just can't take any of this seriously. Why doesn't he come on here and speak for hiimself? I mean, these are filtered through you and you can't help but put your own slant on it a little bit. I know that whenever I talk about my kids and their experiences that some of my take on it comes through. Is he not willing to disuss these things himself?
Psy and others.....this is one of the best threads in a long time. You guys have nailed programs to the proverbial "T".
:nworthy:
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psy- After about 6 weeks at wilderness (and in response to a very effective letter I wrote at the request of the therapist) our son agreed that he had screwed things up at home/school. We were told he was one of the most resistant kids they had ever seen at 2N.
He felt he had figured out a lot of things at 2N (wrote a ton of journals) and was ready to come home. He seemed to think his old boarding school would take him back, but they refused.
As far as coercion and being tough on the kids- some of that is necessary. This isn't golf camp. I don't know what some of the rest of you did before you got sent away, but the pain and tears our son caused his family and others was pretty bad. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he needed to go to wilderness. He figured it out pretty fast, as did his friends back home. Why did it take 6 weeks? This was an angry, depressed kid who had spent years holding onto anger towards his family and other authority figures. It wasn't going to change in a week.
As I said, 3 1/2 years later (now) our son is very objective about the whole thing. He admits he needed wilderness- thinks almost any kid would benefit from 2N. Thinks Carlbrook is a very mixed bag and wasn't where he should have been, but he is glad for the friends he made and for the path it let him take to get where he is now. I doubt he will ever post on Fornits- he is way past caring about all this and is busy with his life. I can assure you that he does not censor his remarks about these programs or anything else for my benefit.
If anyone has read James Frey's book, A Million Little Pieces (the parts that are actually true) you will remember his description of the "Fury" (he personified it) that he felt towards his parents. I could really relate to this, because it is how our son felt towards us and probably still feels sometimes. Frey didn't know why he felt this way and neither did our son.
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I can't believe after everything that's been said about Charley's son on this site that you think he would willingly engage in a discussion here. It's strange that the alleged humiliation to kids that is so concerning to some of you on Fornits is quite similar to what when on here for months regarding Charley and her family. Now you want the son to risk all of that being discussed again. I can't blame him.
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Anne- I talked to my son about all this last week. I am a lawyer and I am good at being objective. I have no interest in defending programs per se- I just want to provide input here. I have never received any money (in fact, I think Carlbrook would have paid me to NOT tell anyone my son had been there) for a referral.
I am not putting my spin on anything. I am holding back a little here because it is a public forum and I have been burned before.
I feel that you are doing yourselves a disservice if you really want to reach parents. You are wrong in saying that every aspect of every program is bad and abusive. There are good parts to some programs. Perhaps the bad outweighs. That is a legitimate belief. i am giving you factual information and the opinions of myself and my son. Also, I have talked to perhaps 30 kids who have been to 2N. No one had anything but praise for that particular program. These are kids who had different feelings about their next programs- some loved C-brook and some hated it (as well as non-Carlbrook programs). ALL felt that they benefitted from Second Nature.
If you want to help parents and get rid of bad programs, you have to take a close look at what the good parts are and figure out how those tools can be used in a different setting. I am trying to give you this information. My son is an exception in many ways- I realize that. He was not a typical teen and had some unique talents and issues.
I am not an adversary to you. I'm really not. It is very frustrating for me to post here, and I am wondering why I am doing it. I much prefer the one on one dialogue which I have had with psy and others. I feel that there is less room for misinterpretation that way.
Anne, if you want to use what I am saying to prove the point that every aspect of wilderness and TBS is bad, go for it. I don't think that is your best "play" though. I am willing to be a resource and answer questions fairly and accurately. I have NO need to look at anything through a filter. My son is 20 years old and in college. I don't have a horse in the race.
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This is a Carlbrook thread, not a Second Nature thread.
I was posting because I was asked for some information. I tried to give it and my purpose is not to argue and defend. I simply am not going to do that here.
You do realize, that saying that makes it appear is if you are ignoring the questions regardless of whether you are or not.
I can assure you that my son is not holding anything back and even at one point asked me if I would lend money to the single mother of one of his Dallas friends so that the boy could go to 2N.
Cynical person that i am, i would say: "Program worked"... or "Mission Accomplished!"
3. The test report on my son drew no conclusion about programs and did not mention any. It was a very professional assessment and we have been told by several unrelated medical and mental health professionals that it is one of the most comprehensive, well-written reports they have ever seen.
Has your son seen it? If he has would he aggree with it?
My eval by a shrink (Dr. Nelson) who gets all his business from Benchmark *cough S.O.B. cough*, was horrible. It was trumped up bullshit. It was well written, but the shrink I now go to was horrified by what was written.
At the time my parents thought, "ohh deary my dear.... *nail biting* ... it's worse than we thought... we can't take him back now... he'll fillet us alive"
The kids replies to parents were not censored (I assure you of that- our first letter from son read, "Do not believe anything the therapist Devan tells you. They just want to keep kids here long so they can make money.")
Just curious, When did that opinion change? Do you know what made him feel that way originally?
2N was not at all based on humiliation or breaking down. It is based on building up self esteem.
They all use this tag-line: "it's about building them up with a new self worth" or somesuch. I'm more inclined to believe (based on experience) that what at first is "humilation" or "breaking down" over time appears more and more normal. Eventually the kid thinks "this is making me stronger" and associates, cruelty and emotional shut-off with "growth".
Almost like the abusive Father who says "My daddy beat me when ah wuz growin up, an it maid me the main i aim naow... so i'm-a-gonna do the saim with mah son" kids learn to "help" others through the same method.
Want more examples? In British boarding schools there is a culture of Hazing, it is seen as a positive thing, a right of passage. The abused systematically become the abusers under the pretext of "helping others to be strong men". It happens to some extent in almost every school, as well as in the military. In my opinion, it's a direct byproduct of the hierarchy (where somebody is "above" another... and begins to power trip). The Stanford prison experiment (http://http://www.prisonexp.org/) tells us all about what happens with the corrupting influence of power/authority.
What makes me think this is your son's first reaction, and how it "changed" during his stay there. From personal experience, when you are brainwashed, you don't know it. You think program changed you when all it really did was overwrite who you were with who they wanted you to be.
This may not be the case in your situation, but if you haven't talked to your son much about the details of things there you might now know. Would your son be willing to come on here and answer some questions about SN? We can start a new thread for it if he wishes (and it would probably fit better there)
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psy- After about 6 weeks at wilderness (and in response to a very effective letter I wrote at the request of the therapist) our son agreed that he had screwed things up at home/school. We were told he was one of the most resistant kids they had ever seen at 2N.
Red flag. based on what you have told me about him, i would highly doubt this to be true. Programs often exaggerate problems to emphasize that "your kid really needs the program".
As far as coercion and being tough on the kids- some of that is necessary. This isn't golf camp.
It is neither necessary nor ethical (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html#The%20Continuum%20of%20Influence:%20A%20Proposal). Did you feel that way before sending him there? Tough love does not work, despite what doctor Phil may preach.
I don't know what some of the rest of you did before you got sent away
Not much... as TSW would put it if i can remember correctly "So your parnets sent you away becuase you like it both ways and had bad fashion sense" (i was a bi goth experimenting with Wicca(standard teenage growing up type of stuff)) My parent's didn't take too well to it (fundamentalist Christians). They were scared. They thought I was heading "down the wrong path". I don't blame them in retrospect, they had the best of intentions, but were uninformed and got conned.
There were a few other things too... we rarely got along well, had political differences, screamed and yelled at each-other... There were mistakes and harsh words from on both sides.
but the pain and tears our son caused his family and others was pretty bad. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he needed to go to wilderness. He figured it out pretty fast, as did his friends back home.
Where did he figure that out?
Why did it take 6 weeks? This was an angry, depressed kid who had spent years holding onto anger towards his family and other authority figures. It wasn't going to change in a week.
Yup. It takes a while to suck his brain out and plop in a new one.
As I said, 3 1/2 years later (now) our son is very objective about the whole thing. He admits he needed wilderness- thinks almost any kid would benefit from 2N. Thinks Carlbrook is a very mixed bag and wasn't where he should have been, but he is glad for the friends he made and for the path it let him take to get where he is now. I doubt he will ever post on Fornits- he is way past caring about all this and is busy with his life.
Oh i can believe it. But just in case, would you mind asking him?
I can assure you that he does not censor his remarks about these programs or anything else for my benefit.
If anyone has read James Frey's book, A Million Little Pieces (the parts that are actually true) you will remember his description of the "Fury" (he personified it) that he felt towards his parents. I could really relate to this, because it is how our son felt towards us and probably still feels sometimes. Frey didn't know why he felt this way and neither did our son.
If he hasn't figured out why... Then how therapeutic was wilderness? If he hasn't addressed what made him mad, what good is learning to bottle up his anger and "behave himself"?
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What made my son feel that way was that he had been taken away from his life, his girlfriend, his puppy, his alcohol and his freedom. He would do or say anything to get that back, just as he did and said anything to get the things he wanted while he was at home.
I read a lot of what he wrote in wilderness- he and I were going to write a book but never got around to it. I can assure you that he wasn't brainwashed. He was really funny about going back the second time. He settled right into it and was able to help other kids who came there "new". He said every kid that arrived said, "This is a mistake. I'll be going home in a couple of weeks."
I have worked with a lot of therapists over the years- both for myself and my kids. The two we worked with at 2N were the best I have ever encountered (my husband and son's opinion as well).
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Ok no, something is not right here. Beside psy's comments, this wilderness camp is starting to remind me of every other facility I've come across. I read back over some of the comments left last night and nihil makes some valid points and you(charly) seem to confirm his points. Being forced to write letters home and being forced to read letters from parents to a group fits the profile of programs like Straight,inc. You also mentioned being instructed on how to write your letter, I know in the Straights parents had to use "feeling words" and adhere to very strict guidliness during group "talk" sessions. The only real rule was to say how the child's behavior hurt them(the parents) and how displeased they were with their child. It looks like after the 6 weeks and your "letter" he broke. Thats not progress, thats him giving you what you, and the program(2N), wanted to hear. What was the reason for not telling him when he could leave and why did he have to "agree" to go to another facility in order to be released from 2N?
I'm starting to question where you draw the line in what you are willing to except as justifiable. You say that coercion and being "tough" is necessary, thats true if your goal is thought-reform and not therapy. So I must ask what do you feel is unacceptable to do to a child in the name of treatment ?
This is what I hate about this situation... From psy's take on the website 2N seemed to be good, but the website is not jiving with what you're describing Charly. Question, is 2N licensed with the state? Do the certified counselors meet with the students or do they sign off on the group sessions carried out by the uncertified staff? Last question, Could you describe the different levels and what is required to get from level to level?
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I am not going to discuss my son's issues and therapy on this forum. I will ask him if he would be willing to post, but he is out of the country right now. No offense, but he simply isn't interested in these issues. It just isn't something he even thinks about. He spent two years at a regular prep boarding school and is now in college. All of this has faded out of range.
I can confirm that he was one of the most resistant kids they had seen. Remember-he almost killed the escorts and resisted all the Carbrook therapy. At home, when he went to a psychiatrist to be evaluated, he insulted the guy and stole the sign from his door.
He figured out after a few weeks at wilderness that his actions at home weren't working for him or anyone else and that he needed a "time out". 2N has a waiting list much of the time, so there was no need to convince us or him that he needed to be there.
Sorry- but I do believe in consequences and some coercion. I always have- it's part of life- but I was not good at enforcing consequences. I wanted to protect him and keep him happy, and it wasn't the right thing.
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What made my son feel that way was that he had been taken away from his life, his girlfriend, his puppy, his alcohol and his freedom. He would do or say anything to get that back, just as he did and said anything to get the things he wanted while he was at home.
Almost verbatim what i believed in program... after about 6 months. Losing hope of leaving (unless you break down and comply) does funny things to the mind.
Let me ask you this: Can somebody graduate the program without changing his/her beliefs on such things or are they kept in program until they "change their attitude".
If it's as I suspect, the latter, there could be no other result than "a changed attitude(soul)" if he finished the program.
I read a lot of what he wrote in wilderness- he and I were going to write a book but never got around to it. I can assure you that he wasn't brainwashed. He was really funny about going back the second time. He settled right into it and was able to help other kids who came there "new". He said every kid that arrived said, "This is a mistake. I'll be going home in a couple of weeks."
Yup. When they lose that hope... splurt. out goes the brain(personality, mind, soul), in comes the mush. It was nice of your kid to help the other kids out in that effort. What did i say about hazing? Something about kids becoming part of the system.
Before you slap me, that was not lashing out. I am well aware if what i suspect was the case, he honestly thought he was helping kids out. No harmful intent... One should not judge him for that.
I have worked with a lot of therapists over the years- both for myself and my kids. The two we worked with at 2N were the best I have ever encountered (my husband and son's opinion as well).
Well it doesn't look like he thought that when starting the program. With which of these methods (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html#The%20Continuum%20of%20Influence:%20A%20Proposal) did they change his mind with?
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The therapists spend two days a week in the field meeting with the kids individually and with the group.
We were not TOLD what to write. The therapist helped us based on what he was doing in therapy and what he was saying the issues were. We asked the therapist what we should say about certain topics based on where he was with his processing.
It was therapy. The things he worked on were individual to him and were appropriate.
The kids were not told they were leaving because the transition camp was a neat part of the program and there was a ceremony etc. Besides, it wasn't planned way in advance.
He had to agree to Carlbrook because if he didn't, he couldn't go there and we had to find another option. He had to write a letter to Carlbrook, if he wanted to go there, explaining why he thought it was the right place for him. We had sent him materials about it and he had been told about it. He figured it was the best option and he agreed to it. Once he got there, he decided he had been wrong.
I don't remember the wilderness levels and what you had to do. It was 3 1/2 years ago. They were similar to the program in Shouting at the Sky. It was a combination of "hard" skills and therapeutic work. They were called Earth, Water, Fire and Air or something like that. My son wanted to focus on the hard skills and actually had to be taken off of some of them so he would focus on therapy. He would carry other people's packs for them and carry all the water so the group could hike faster......
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Our son's way of "helping" was to point out what percentage of kids got to go home and say, "Dude. You're going to a program!"
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He had to agree to Carlbrook because if he didn't, he couldn't go there and we had to find another option. He had to write a letter to Carlbrook, if he wanted to go there, explaining why he thought it was the right place for him. We had sent him materials about it and he had been told about it. He figured it was the best option and he agreed to it. Once he got there, he decided he had been wrong.
I am curious, if he had refused, outright, or had been more "troubled" than he was, what would you have done? What were the other options you were considering?
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Tri- we really hadn't looked at other options at that point once we chose Carlbrook. If Carlbrook had refused, we would have had to look at other places, I guess. Carlbrook is one of the least restrictive programs. I would not have sent him to HLA or Cascade. He needed strong academics, so that limited our choices.
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I can't believe after everything that's been said about Charley's son on this site that you think he would willingly engage in a discussion here. It's strange that the alleged humiliation to kids that is so concerning to some of you on Fornits is quite similar to what when on here for months regarding Charley and her family. Now you want the son to risk all of that being discussed again. I can't blame him.
I'm not asking him to discuss what he "did to deserved to get placed there" or any of the really personal aspects of his story. I'm asking for him to discuss why he thinks Carlbrook was helpful to him. I imagine he would be treated very differently than his mother as he hasn't spewed the garbage at people that she has.
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psy- He changed his mind about the therapist because he was a good therapist. My son knows a good therapist when he sees one. The guy did not use persuasion and control. He had some good ideas and great insight. That's why my son wanted to go back there-he was the best therapist my son has ever worked with.
During the second stint, the guy advised us at one point to bring him home because C-brook was dragging their feet on letting him come back there. The therapist said he had accomplished all he could and our s on was ready to leave and go back to school. He asked us to come out there, take our son out of the field for a day and night and be with him and see what we thought. We did that. C-brook then said he should come back there, which worked better for school, for one thing. We had a good family session with the therapist at the base building (a nice building, by the way, not a trailer) and then left with our son.
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Anne- I'll tell you what he told me and what I wrote to psy. He does not agree with the group pressure and the "ratting" people out. He thought some of the staff was nuts. What worked for him was getting to know some kids on a level different from competitive prep school or athletics. It helped to be able to read and write and have little distraction. It helped to have a good therapist there. It helped to figure out, with the help of some academic teachers, where he wanted to go with his next few years. He did not buy into any of the therapy/programming, but did like his sessions with his particular counselor. He also gained respect for some senior staff members- one is still there and one is not. He realized that we (parents) were on his side and not The Enemy. He felt he (and we) were misled about several aspects of the school. However, he does think the principals truly believe they can help kids and he respects the business/school they have built from the ground up.
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Anne- I talked to my son about all this last week. I am a lawyer and I am good at being objective.
Just because you're an attorney doesn't mean you're objective....especially when it comes to your own family. It's not a fault, it's human nature.
I have no interest in defending programs per se- I just want to provide input here.
OK, but are we not permitted to question that "input" and discuss it?
I have never received any money (in fact, I think Carlbrook would have paid me to NOT tell anyone my son had been there) for a referral.
Never said you did.
I am not putting my spin on anything. I am holding back a little here because it is a public forum and I have been burned before.
You can't help it, it's human nature.
I feel that you are doing yourselves a disservice if you really want to reach parents. You are wrong in saying that every aspect of every program is bad and abusive. There are good parts to some programs.
I feel that you are doing a disservice if you really want to help kids. I think YOU are wrong. I think the very nature and basis of these programs is destructive.
Perhaps the bad outweighs. That is a legitimate belief.
Well, gee. Thanks.:roll:
i am giving you factual information and the opinions of myself and my son. Also, I have talked to perhaps 30 kids who have been to 2N. No one had anything but praise for that particular program. These are kids who had different feelings about their next programs- some loved C-brook and some hated it (as well as non-Carlbrook programs). ALL felt that they benefitted from Second Nature.
And when I first got out of Straight I would have sworn up and down that I deserved it, needed it and it saved my life.
If you want to help parents and get rid of bad programs, you have to take a close look at what the good parts are and figure out how those tools can be used in a different setting. I am trying to give you this information. My son is an exception in many ways- I realize that. He was not a typical teen and had some unique talents and issues.
I want to help rid the world of ALL these mindrape mills.
I am not an adversary to you. I'm really not. It is very frustrating for me to post here, and I am wondering why I am doing it. I much prefer the one on one dialogue which I have had with psy and others. I feel that there is less room for misinterpretation that way.
Ok, doesn't really matter if you are or not. We all have our different opinions. You just seem to think that yours are fact.
Anne, if you want to use what I am saying to prove the point that every aspect of wilderness and TBS is bad, go for it. I don't think that is your best "play" though.
I'm not playing anything. I'm just stating my opinions and experiences.
I am willing to be a resource and answer questions fairly and accurately. I have NO need to look at anything through a filter. My son is 20 years old and in college. I don't have a horse in the race.
Yes you do.
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Anne- I'll tell you what he told me and what I wrote to psy. He does NOT think Carlbrook, per se, was helpful to him. He does not agree with the group pressure and the "ratting" people out. He thought some of the staff was nuts. What worked for him was getting to know some kids on a level different from competitive prep school or athletics. It helped to be able to read and write and have little distraction. It helped to have a good therapist there. It helped to figure out, with the help of some academic teachers, where he wanted to go with his next few years. He did not buy into any of the therapy/programming, but did like his sessions with his particular counselor. He also gained respect for some senior staff members- one is still there and one is not. He realized that we (parents) were on his side and not The Enemy. He felt he (and we) were misled about several aspects of the school. However, he does think the principals truly believe they can help kids and he respects the business/school they have built from the ground up.
Ok, I hear what you're saying but it doesn't change how I feel. I'd still like to discuss it with him. If he's not willing, that's fine too. I understand that, but I'm just not willing to take your word for it. Sorry. I appreciate and will abide by this truce, but I still feel the way I do.
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psy- He changed his mind about the therapist because he was a good therapist. My son knows a good therapist when he sees one. The guy did not use persuasion and control. He had some good ideas and great insight. That's why my son wanted to go back there-he was the best therapist my son has ever worked with.
During the second stint, the guy advised us at one point to bring him home because C-brook was dragging their feet on letting him come back there. The therapist said he had accomplished all he could and our s on was ready to leave and go back to school. He asked us to come out there, take our son out of the field for a day and night and be with him and see what we thought. We did that. C-brook then said he should come back there, which worked better for school, for one thing. We had a good family session with the therapist at the base building (a nice building, by the way, not a trailer) and then left with our son.
Well that takes away one red flag (and adds one to Carlbrook's tally)
I'm glad the therapist did that, and i'm glad he is doing fine now.
Regarding Carlbrook, to get back on topic: As a parent, did you ever feel the program was manipulating you?
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Psy, again.....you're dead on.
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I understand that, but I'm just not willing to take your word for it.
It's not her word to take about it. Her son is the only person who can truly speak from his perspective. Charley can only speak from a parent's perspective (which is appreciated btw).
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I understand that, but I'm just not willing to take your word for it.
It's not her word to take about it. Her son is the only person who can truly speak from his perspective. Charley can only speak from a parent's perspective (which is appreciated btw).
My point exactly. She's speaking for him and that I'm not willing to accept. I'll discuss her perceptions, but it makes no sense to have a discussion with her about what her son experienced.
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I didn't feel the program was manipulating me, because I am not easily manipulated.
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All I can say is that if you knew my son, you would know that I am accurately reporting his opinion and experiences. I don't expect you to believe that, but it's true.
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I didn't feel the program was manipulating me, because I am not easily manipulated.
nor were did my parents feel they were easily manipulated, but they were. and after a while they figured the extent of it out... it's hard for confident parents to admit to themselves that they were conned. most think "nobody can get one over on me". Not true. It happens every day.
If anything, they bent over backwards to try to work with me, but some of the administration really resented this. They did not want to make "exceptions". One thing that really surprised me was that they discouraged parents being in contact with each other,
:rofl:
Gee, i wonder why. No offense, but you say you aren't easily manipulated... why do you think they discouraged intra-parental contact?
and I felt the support group was important. There were mistakes made, but most of them were due to screw-ups and the incompetence of the academic head (Bender) and not willful manipulation.
Horse poopie! I would be willing to bet my computer (my beloved computer) it was willful.
Another problem was keeping son in wilderness for 7 weeks the second time when it should have been 3. They kept changing the rules on him. "If you do this, you can leave." Oops- what we REALLY meant was.....
Yeah. they do that allright.
Then, "See, he's pissed off because we said he could leave and now he can't. That means he's not ready to come back." I wouldn't t call it manipulation- I would call it something much worse. The only reason he went back was that it was his only path to the next school and because a lot of promises were made to him and us about how he was going to be handled once he got back there. Turned out some signals got crossed there, too, but it was more a case of one hand not knowing what the other was doing.
You really think it's incompetance? Miscommunication? I wonder what TSW would say to that becuase he was staff at a program. I'm guesing he would say something like "miscommunications are very much intentional... fuck the french!" Carlbrook quacks like a duck... so it must be... that's right... a duck. Yet another CEDU clone (YACC).
Is it really that hard to admit the possability that you migth have been conned? Your son seems to think you were fooled? is it possable?
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He was treated very badly at Carlbrook during his last month. This was because he was leaving the program early
...
He was compared to a rapist in one group session.
Whee! the glories of emotional growth.
Consider for a moment... that he was treated that way the entire time, but only felt he *could* speak out about it becuase he knew he was leaving at that time. Is that possible?
It was clearly emotional abuse, but he begged me not to say anything-
Did you keep quiet about it? For his sake i hope so.
he just wanted to get through it and get out. This is a topic I am more vehement about than he is. I was livid at what he told me on the phone, and he just blew it off. It was a real sign of his maturity that he could keep from decking someone since he had that light at the end of the tunnel.
It wasn't a sign of maturity. That i'm sure of. It was a sign that that type of shit was normal to him at that point.
From your perspective, how had he changed after Carlbrook?
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Conned how? I still don't see what other option we would have chosen at the time? It provided academics, safety and a track to where my son needed to be. There were things we didn't like, but I wouldn't call it a con.
If I were conned, not only would I admit it, I would do something about it.
Also- not manipulated by the school's lack of interest in parents communicating. I set up an email list and many of us did it anyway.
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Conned how? I still don't see what other option we would have chosen at the time?
And how does that show you weren't conned? Lack of options is precisely what aids in the con.
When we figured out it wasn't where our son needed to be, we figured out a way for him to leave. It was one school year. I don't see it as a con. It was a fairly new program and there were some definite kinks. It provided academics, safety and a track to where my son needed to be. There were things we didn't like, but I wouldn't call it a con.
If I were conned, not only would I admit it, I would do something about it.
Which is exactly why i think this conversation is productive, not only for you but also for any other parents who might be reading this.
Also- not manipulated by the school's lack of interest in parents communicating. I set up an email list and many of us did it anyway.
Well no wonder they didn't like you.
On the list, did you ever notice a certain peculiar similarity between what all the parents were told? Hint: the word starts with an 'm'.
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As for the email list- Many of the parents were not that into it. As I told psy, not ONE parent from my son's peer group knew about this site and only one other knew about ST. There were a few parents I had regular contact with, but most just sort of stayed to themselves as far as electronic communications went. Most of the families were very pleased with Carlbrook- there were a couple that were not and the kids were taken out.
After he came home- He had matured a lot and was able to adhere to reasonable household rules. When he made a mistake, he was able to admit it, apologize and move forward. He showed a lot better judgement about people. He was able to show some empathy towards others. He was actually pleasant to be around most of the time. He trained hard and prepared for his next school.
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As for the email list- Many of the parents were not that into it. As I told psy, not ONE parent from my son's peer group knew about this site and only one other knew about ST. There were a few parents I had regular contact with, but most just sort of stayed to themselves as far as electronic communications went. Most of the families were very pleased with Carlbrook- there were a couple that were not and the kids were taken out.
No-the harsh treatment of my son towards the end had to do with him bailing on the program. The rest of the time he was on programs and bans, and there were some arbitrary things said and done, but nothing like at the end. Again, my son is NOT one to hold back on saying what he thinks. We got an earful the whole time he was there> Yes, I kept quiet at the end.
But did you keep quiet in the beginning?
I'm not normally one to hold back saying what I think, but I did when Benchmark was asking my parents what I told them or outright monitoring the phone calls.
After he came home- He had matured a lot and was able to adhere to reasonable household rules. When he made a mistake, he was able to admit it, apologize and move forward. He showed a lot better judgement about people. He was able to show some empathy towards others. He was actually pleasant to be around most of the time. He trained hard and prepared for his next school.
Whatever the ends, I do not think the means are justified.
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I finally decided to register after too many Guest posts. I like Karen's new persona -- refreshingly open and honest. Some good exchange of info and ideas. I'll join the fray shortly.
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I was going to go into one of Karens earlier posts, but that's alreayd been done more or less.
I just have a few questions and comments...
One - why do you tell us specific things that are pretty blatantly abusive or based on 'breaking down' (humiliation, loss of hope for esacpe, fear, anxiety, and what not) and then say "its not about that"?
ESPECIALLY in a forum full of people who were in such places, WORKED in such places, and some very well read up parents and advocates?
For instance, that a camp is "not about loss of priviladges, its about loss of DISTRACTIONS!". Thats neither here nor there, that is a SPIN. You lose tons of priviladges and comforts, and 'distractions', but its neither consentual nor does it address that one mans comfort is another mans distraction.
That's part of why some here, such as myself, get frustrated wtih you. For example, I can NOT sleep without white noise, period. I have to have a fan! Sleeping outside would drive me insane, but I'd just be told I need to 'tough it out' or whatever, or 'I CHOSE TO BE THERE' (even though someone else signed off on my nonconsentual placement and I can't very well file a writ of habeas corpus considering the camp would have to provide me a lawyer or mail a letter to one for me, and we know how likely that is!) and obviously I'd be on someone else's schedule, or 'structured environment'. I couldn't relieve myself, bathe, or eat when I want, and a lot of people need that to improve themselves and heal from a lot of things done to them... not everyone needs to get controlled and broken down, and we all know how much they hate making exceptions, right?
Hell, I've yet to see a shred of evidence loss of control and freedom such as 'structure' puts on people is actually good for a damned thing except making it easier for an institution to do things... and if these kids have problems, then it is 100% about them!
At any rate, your SPIN on things like "impact letters" which are so blatantly there to instigate an emotional reaction (why the hell did they use the word IMPACT, Karen? Common sense please...) kind of makes people get distanced from you, because you can't try to dodge specifics, finally tell them, then spin them when everyone here is more than capable of thinking for themself, and more than informed enough to do so.
As much as I'm in court I can appreciate the 'skill' of spinning and arguing things, but none of this is new and you're hardly going to out-spin the peer-reviewed psychotherapeutic medical community from your position as an attourney with a program's oh-so-typical boilerplate.
And at any rate this isn't about winning an arguement for yourself, its about quacks running around hurting kids and making a killing in the process, or at best, doing basically nothing but warehousing them while they grow up and claiming to have created it... and making a killing.
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"You also mentioned that the whole point of wilderness was to take away priveliges that the kid had before so that they realise how good they had it."
I was responding to this specific statement, since that is not what I said.
Niles, I believe you twist everything I say and take it in the worst possible light. There is no point in my responding to you. Your position is very clear, and nothing I say is going to sit well with you. If my posts bother you so much, why don't you skip them?
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What the hell does wilderness isolation have to do with therapy or any beneficial effect?
What on earth does 'wilderness' do, or do the people do and wilderness is just a setting for it?
To me, I see people not used to living in dirt, dirty, unwashed, with shitty food and forced to rely on people they dont like who very well might be unpleasant (or worse) to them, considering most of the crux of wilderness programs is about pushing their buttons until they break down, making them do repetetive tasks and make fire, and then have outbursts from emotional nonsense and use facepaint and indian names.
And of course they can't say uncle and go home.
Unless this place is different...
That's a pretty superficial description, and not all wilderness programs are the same. My kid attended a different one than Karen's, but I think there are some common elements to all of them -- living in dirt, unwashed (most of the time), with shitty food, and you can't say uncle and go home. As for the people, there were very few my son didn't like very well and they were fellow "students," not staff. No facepaint, no indian names or other stupid nicknames.
I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally. Lots of confronting of demons, lots of journaling, introspection and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group. And yes, lots of wilderness-related tasks like making shelter, fire, rope and animal traps, gathering water, cooking, etc. A fair amount of hiking -- usually 1-3 miles/day -- not just pointless going around in circles, but to get from one camp site to the next. The exception was "night hike" right before a 3 day solo (he did that twice). Those were long hikes, intended to induce exhaustion, where the kids would sleep away most of the daylight on the first day of solo.
You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.
One thing that was very clear was that not everyone gets the same thing out of the experience, and what each gets from it depends on what they put into it and how they approach their predicament -- their predicament of being stuck in the wilderness with a bunch of strangers as well as their big-picture predicament of what is going on with their lives back home.
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Damn you're a good lawyer :rofl:
Now, why is it you're attacking me, and not addressing the ISSUES regarding what we know about that WILDERNESS CAMP, Charly?
This is not about me, or my 'spin', this is about those children - you are going to say "oh its not about that" despite the SPECIFIC THINGS YOU SAID. Do I have to repost them here?
You said they had to read "impact letters" infront of a group. You admitted their mail was read (it was faxed to you...). You made a point that one of the 'takehomes' was your child realized how good he had it before he was put in that place. You admitted he was not allowed to know when he was getting out!
Lots of BIG RED FLAGS, Charly, and you can't just blame that on me... YOU said it and THE WILDERNESS CAMP DID IT to your son and other children.
Is that OK? Is THAT acceptable? NO! It is NOT therapy, he has BEEN debunked, and all the links Psy has been kind enough to post backs that up. Quackery isn't acceptable, and you can't blame me for negativity becuase I bother to point that out.
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Excellent. Thanks. Good summary. I think I know who you are. Thanks for joining in.
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I don't see the same red flags as you do, Niles. How was a handwritten letter supposed to get to us from the woods of Utah in a short period of time? Carrier pigeon? I haven't heard one kid complain about the letters being read. Just not a big issue. Nothing was censored.
Not knowing when he was leaving.....he knew when it was time for transition camp. WE didn't know when he was leaving until a week before. It isn't a fixed date.
Impact letter- I think it served a crucial purpose. Therapy isn't easy or comfortable. I've never heard a kid complain about the impact letters or reading them in the group, either. If there are program kids out there who think this is a problem, I would be glad to hear from them, but this seems like a non-issue.
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Nice doubleteam! Too bad I type fast :D BTW, where are you from anyway?
I guess it's fair to tagteam vs Fornits, but It's not going to matter, ultimately.
I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally
Really? Then what is it?
Lots of confronting of demons, lots of journaling, introspection and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group.
Uh, that is the same thing, just "spun" with a few buzzwords. We call that "boilerplate" for a reason you know!
A fair amount of hiking -- usually 1-3 miles/day -- not just pointless going around in circles, but to get from one camp site to the next
It's pointless unless there is some reason to go from campsite to campsite, and hiking isn't therapeutic in any way unless its a healthy person trying to burn calories or just enjoying it... and that has not one iota to do with psychotherapy at all.
So yes, its pointless, because of its utter irrelevance to real psychotherapy.
The exception was "night hike" right before a 3 day solo (he did that twice). Those were long hikes, intended to induce exhaustion, where the kids would sleep away most of the daylight on the first day of solo.
Were you in Dead or Alive in the 80s? You sure as hell do spin me right round, baby!
Inducing exhaustion is one of the hallmarks of instigating a psychological regression, and to put it another way puts a lot of control over someone. Exhaustion is not part of psychotherapy, but sleep if someone WANTS to sleep is just part of treating someone right. Also, "solo" is not actual psychotherapy, but it is part of typical wilderness program schtik.
You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.
Isn't it a damn shame nobody who runs these places, and the parents who send kids to them, even years later, can't answer that! Gee, I sure wish someone would get off their ass and answer it. Too bad we've put untold thousands of children through this before someone bothered to check. :roll:
One thing that was very clear was that not everyone gets the same thing out of the experience, and what each gets from it depends on what they put into it and how they approach their predicament -- their predicament of being stuck in the wilderness with a bunch of strangers as well as their big-picture predicament of what is going on with their lives back home.[/
MORE typical program nonsense! Need I remind you who populates fornits? Educated activists, ex program kids, ex program staff, and ex program parents!
There is no 'therapy' out of being stuck in a situation and made to make the most of it, just like there is no obligation or therapy out of making the most out of getting gang raped.
Their predicament is a result of quackery on the part of these camps that majorly misrepresent themself and on the part of parents who can't make a better decision, including the one to do nothing. Being stuck with strangers is because someone is selling something thier parent wants, for whatever reason, including being told it will 'fix' whatever is wrong with the kid, but then the wilderness camp says "oh its up to the person and not everyone gets the same thing out of it!".
But yet so many people with so many diferent issues are made to go through with it? Thats baloney.
BTW, nice way of sneaking in "its their fault for what they did at home to get sent there" at the end of your little statement.
I'll admit you're good at this... but its still not going to work on someone who knows better, knows how to argue, knows how to debate, and actually knows his head from a hole in the ground about actual psychotherapy vs this nonsense.
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I don't see the same red flags as you do, Niles. How was a handwritten letter supposed to get to us from the woods of Utah in a short period of time? Carrier pigeon? I haven't heard one kid complain about the letters being read. Just not a big issue. Nothing was censored.
That sure is nice. Its still read by staff, and any kid in a program or "wilderness" knows that full and damn well.
Not knowing when he was leaving.....he knew when it was time for transition camp. WE didn't know when he was leaving until a week before. It isn't a fixed date.
So that makes it okay? Try again...
Impact letter- I think it served a crucial purpose. Therapy isn't easy or comfortable. I've never heard a kid complain about the impact letters or reading them in the group, either. If there are program kids out there who think this is a problem, I would be glad to hear from them, but this seems like a non-issue.
Wow, YOU, an attourney, not a psychotherapist, THINK it served a crucial purpose. Why, someone told you? Where is his credentials. Or do you think you did when you're not an expert by any means of the imagation on this at all? Where's your credentials?
Just because you have not heard a complaint about it doesn't mean its effective, its therapeutic, or its not abusive, Karen. We all know how much good it does for a kid in a program to complain about abuse... unless of course you need psy to re-iterate it becuase you assume our attention spans are so short.
Your attempt to minimize that is pretty amusing, but the effect of having to read an IMPACT letter infront of a group is pretty apparent to anyone with something called 'empathy', specific knowledge of programs and what it makes kids in them feel told to you BY someone who went through it just reinforces that more.
The bottom line, Karen, is that an IMPACT letter is named IMPACT letter for a reason, having to read it out in a group without choice is humiliating, stressful, NOT therapetic, and confrontational group therapy was debunked decades ago, whether or not you think you can excuse abuse or spin nonsense into therapy by saying "yeah well therapy is not comfortable or easy".
REAL therapists would have something else to say about that, too bad you used a wilderness camp instead.
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I don't see the same red flags as you do, Niles. How was a handwritten letter supposed to get to us from the woods of Utah in a short period of time? Carrier pigeon? I haven't heard one kid complain about the letters being read. Just not a big issue. Nothing was censored.
Not knowing when he was leaving.....he knew when it was time for transition camp. WE didn't know when he was leaving until a week before. It isn't a fixed date.
Impact letter- I think it served a crucial purpose. Therapy isn't easy or comfortable. I've never heard a kid complain about the impact letters or reading them in the group, either. If there are program kids out there who think this is a problem, I would be glad to hear from them, but this seems like a non-issue.
Im sure no kid complains about the impact letter because behaving appropriately is an essential part of progression. To complain makes it look as if you are an unwilling participant. I dont doubt that what some parents write might be true. I just dont understand how forcing a kid to share it with the world can be seen as without humiliation. Why was it that you chose this route and not the natural consequences of being kciked out of school which i assume would be going to the local public school for a while? Would the local school not accept your son?
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I would just like to add that the BIGGEST complaint by people who had to go through many programs was that kind of psychological attack.
I know someone who would rather be gang raped than go through a "rap" again... she was a straightling back in the 80s. And guess how she knows that? She got gang raped after escaping straight, but didn't really get phased by it and just picked herself up and went on about her life the next day, much to her friend's chagrin.
Wanna know why? She said it was so much less harmful, hurtful, and personal and malicious... being mind-fucked in such a way can hurt so much more than being physically violated by some college boys.
I hope you never have to understand that, but a little empathy would go a long way.
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At any rate, your SPIN on things like "impact letters" which are so blatantly there to instigate an emotional reaction (why the hell did they use the word IMPACT, Karen?
My guess is that's what the program calls them. Programs are all about "impacts" and "confrontations" and "the truth(tm) hurts".
[/quote]Common sense please...) kind of makes people get distanced from you, because you can't try to dodge specifics, finally tell them, then spin them when everyone here is more than capable of thinking for themself, and more than informed enough to do so.[/quote]
I hate to do this niles, and you have a lot of experience and knowledge in the TTI, but afaik you weren't in program. I appreciate your concern but please don't get offended by Karen on program kid's behalf. There are plenty of them here to do that.
Personally i find Karen a bit insensitive at times, but she appears to "just be that way". She's a lawyer for crying out loud. ( --> ::bigmouth:: <-- )
:D
As much as I'm in court I can appreciate the 'skill' of spinning and arguing things, but none of this is new and you're hardly going to out-spin the peer-reviewed psychotherapeutic medical community from your position as an attourney with a program's oh-so-typical boilerplate.
He has a point Karen. This isn't about winning a case. This time you're more of a witness/jury as well as an attorney. You're an "expert witness", a parent. I have enjoy this debate because it gives me an opportunity to talk to another parent about the industry and debate it with an opposing viewpoint (honestly not that common here). That isn't becuase Fornits censors viewpoints, it doesn't, it's because after a while of hanging around here parents usually end up saying "What the fuck was i thinking?!?!?" (if they don't get scared off... which does happen)
And at any rate this isn't about winning an arguement for yourself, its about quacks running around hurting kids and making a killing in the process, or at best, doing basically nothing but warehousing them while they grow up and claiming to have created it... and making a killing.
He's right Karen. And if you give us the time to talk it out, we will show you the evidence.
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Damn you're a good lawyer :rofl:
Now, why is it you're attacking me, and not addressing the ISSUES regarding what we know about that WILDERNESS CAMP, Charly?
This is not about me, or my 'spin', this is about those children - you are going to say "oh its not about that" despite the SPECIFIC THINGS YOU SAID. Do I have to repost them here?
You said they had to read "impact letters" infront of a group. You admitted their mail was read (it was faxed to you...). You made a point that one of the 'takehomes' was your child realized how good he had it before he was put in that place. You admitted he was not allowed to know when he was getting out!
And she hasn't put it all together yet. Calm down and give her time.
Lots of BIG RED FLAGS, Charly, and you can't just blame that on me... YOU said it and THE WILDERNESS CAMP DID IT to your son and other children.
Is that OK? Is THAT acceptable? NO! It is NOT therapy, he has BEEN debunked, and all the links Psy has been kind enough to post backs that up.
I have a veritable library of bookmarks on the subject from shrinks all over the place.
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"You also mentioned that the whole point of wilderness was to take away priveliges that the kid had before so that they realise how good they had it."
I was responding to this specific statement, since that is not what I said.
Niles, I believe you twist everything I say and take it in the worst possible light. There is no point in my responding to you. Your position is very clear, and nothing I say is going to sit well with you. If my posts bother you so much, why don't you skip them?
While i don't think Niles intentionally twists what you say i do think he misinterpreted your responses. From what i understand from your posts, you didn't send him away for that purpose, but that was the result. (and i believe i already backed that up. i sure appreciated home in program).
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Psy, I'm not trying to overstep anything or get offended on the behalf of program kids... as I already am very offended on the behalf of people who have no voice and are being tortured. Its kind of why I'm here, I want to stop it!
I was simply trying to make a point of the fact that here, the facts and specifics are essential to any discussion, whereas in ST it tends to be squelched and all discourse is in emotional, subjective 'feely' terms.
At any rate you or any other program victim are the last person I'm out to offend or ruffle the feathers of and I apologize.
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My viewpoint is that of a parent. A few posters on here are parents, but most are not. As a non-parent, you can no more understand my point of view (and therefore may regard some things I say as "insensitive") than a non-program kid or parent can understand exactly what it feels like to be in a program. You blasted me the other times I have said this, but I'll say it again- the LAST thing we wanted to do was send our kid to a wilderness program or TBS. We explored every possible alternative. We talked, fought, negotiated, cried. Only with our backs to the wall, a second near-fatal car wreck, a brick through the rear window of a new car and a terrified, distraught sibling, did we pick up the phone.
You can show me all the statistics and articles in the world, but you will not convince me that my son was abused or mistreated in wilderness. It simply was not the case. It was not easy for him in many respects and it was not where he wanted to spend his summer, but it was our best option and it turned out to be a good one. I am open to learning and hearing what you have to say, but the well-credentialed therapists who worked with my son at 2N and who worked me us were NOT quacks and they cared very much about every kid they treated.
I am a believer in 12 step programs, but not for teens. I think belief in a higher power and turning the addiction over to a higher power is effective. Many disagree and many have failed to get sober in 12 step programs. Does this mean it is quackery and no one is really helped? Of course not.
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I am a believer in 12 step programs, but not for teens. I think belief in a higher power and turning the addiction over to a higher power is effective. Many disagree and many have failed to get sober in 12 step programs. Does this mean it is quackery and no one is really helped? .
Yes.
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I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally.
Do you know that for a fact? My parents were sure never told the truth of the intricate details of "emotional growth" at the program i was in. Sure they had parent seminars, and shit like that, but it was mostly an elaborate ruse and they would never dare try some of the things they normally did with parents around.
I often link to Terezin to show how this is possable. lots of people think (oh no. they couldnt keep everybody silent). Well it's possable, and it has happened, and it does happen. Terezin was a german concentration camp during WWII which the Red Cross came to visit. They went to great lengths to create an elaborate show for the Red Cross to convince them that the Jews were just "lovin it". Through threats of consequences, they kept the Jews from complaining to the Red Cross and forced them to say how wonderful Terezin was. While the situation differs in severity, the pattern remains the same.
Lots of confronting of demons
Who gets to chose the demons? And who does the confronting?
lots of journalingForced? Private? or read by the councelors? Read in group?
introspection
this happens natrually anywhere with silence and time to think.
and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group.
Are the topics chosen by the kids? or do the staff say "let's talk about your ________ problem".
You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.
Good luck. no really. Don't think too hard, and back it up with research. the burden of proof of whether or not programs work, is on the program supporters and the programs themselves. Please do tell if you find any evidence.
what each gets from it depends on what they put into it
verbatim Lifespring. You pick that phraise up from the staff?
and how they approach their predicament -- their predicament of being stuck in the wilderness with a bunch of strangers as well as their big-picture predicament of what is going on with their lives back home.
The predicament is this: "You will comply with the program and let us into your head, or you will not leave." It's that simple.
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No offence intended or implied, but your own emotional trauma and stress might excuse your decision making, but does not make it 'right', and does not change what actually happened. It excuses you, not the 'professionals', impact letters, people bitching about 'exceptions' at carlbrook or any of the other nonsense.
In addition, means are not justified by the ends, especially considering ZERO proof that they had anything to do with them at all!
I find it somewhat odd an attourney is going to stand there and say that even if I give you PROOF, it will not convince an emotional decision you made that your son was not abused or mistreated at that wilderness program, despit the very specifics YOU yourself provided to us that are contrary to that! As attached as you are to that or your desire to believe that, and the very strong desire you also have to not believe you were wrong, the people who have themselves been through it (not just a parent on the sidelines as you were, once your child left your custody and entered that of the wilderness program) actual experts in the field, and ex counselors have otherwise to say.
And how does your emotional appeal compare to their observations? People who did it to kids themselves, people who went though it as kids that had it done to them, and actual psychologists and psychiatrists carry a lot more weight than an attourney trying to win an arguement and minimize how bad something looks, Karen.
You might BELIEVE in 12 step stuff, and you might BELIEVE in a higher power, but I won't hold my breath on you trying to prove either of them work or exist, respectively.
Also, I figure I'd let you in on something... 12 step schtick has the same effect on recidivism as doing nothing at all. 5%. Guess who admits that?
THE TWELVE STEP PROGRAMS THEMSELVES.
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Nice doubleteam! Too bad I type fast :D BTW, where are you from anyway?
Ask Ginger to check my IP. This is about my 100th post on Fornits. All but the last 3 were anon. Most of my earlier posts were what ST parents would call "anti-program." Even now, I'm definitely not "for" wilderness therapy and am not convinced it was necessary or even that it was money well spent (notice my avatar).
I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally
Really? Then what is it?
One word for it is "hardship." But that's also an inadequate description. Also not a recognized therapeutic method, but it does have an effect on people.
Lots of confronting of demons, lots of journaling, introspection and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group.
Uh, that is the same thing, just "spun" with a few buzzwords. We call that "boilerplate" for a reason you know!
Boilerplate or not, it's pretty close to my son's assessment of what he did while he was out there.
A fair amount of hiking -- usually 1-3 miles/day -- not just pointless going around in circles, but to get from one camp site to the next
It's pointless unless there is some reason to go from campsite to campsite, and hiking isn't therapeutic in any way unless its a healthy person trying to burn calories or just enjoying it... and that has not one iota to do with psychotherapy at all.
So yes, its pointless, because of its utter irrelevance to real psychotherapy.
I guess you and I will forever disagree on the 'therapeutic' value of hiking and being away from civilization. My kids and I have been hiking in the wilderness since they were pre-schoolers. We didn't do it to burn calories, but to see and experience something that couldn't be had any other way.
I will agree with you on one important point -- this has nothing to do with psychotherapy at all.
The exception was "night hike" right before a 3 day solo (he did that twice). Those were long hikes, intended to induce exhaustion, where the kids would sleep away most of the daylight on the first day of solo.
Were you in Dead or Alive in the 80s? You sure as hell do spin me right round, baby!
No, in the late 70s/early 80s I was more into the Sex Pistols, the Ramones and the Clash. But you just reminded me of The Wedding Singer, which was a pretty funny movie.
Inducing exhaustion is one of the hallmarks of instigating a psychological regression, and to put it another way puts a lot of control over someone. Exhaustion is not part of psychotherapy, but sleep if someone WANTS to sleep is just part of treating someone right. Also, "solo" is not actual psychotherapy, but it is part of typical wilderness program schtik.
It's also related to an ancient Native American tradition that involves transitioning from boyhood to manhood. No it's not actual psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean it is devoid of value as a learning or growth experience.
You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.
Isn't it a damn shame nobody who runs these places, and the parents who send kids to them, even years later, can't answer that! Gee, I sure wish someone would get off their ass and answer it. Too bad we've put untold thousands of children through this before someone bothered to check. :roll:
Others have attempted to answer it. I will piece together my own observations and what I have learned. More importantly, my son can tell you in his own words what he thinks was valuable about it, as well as what sucked about it.
Need I remind you who populates fornits? Educated activists, ex program kids, ex program staff, and ex program parents!
And some of them have helped my son and my family a great deal. They have especially helped me avoid making a huge mistake -- or if you prefer, an even bigger mistake than the one you believe I already made by sending him to wilderness.
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psy- Wilderness really does not work the same way the TBS programs do. It is not the same model. It isn't at all a "you'll stay until we break you and you get it" thing. Wilderness is really an interim thing and they NEVER claim it "fixes" kids. Very few kids are ready to go home after wilderness. There are exceptions, and if our home situation/school etc. had been different, my son might have been one of them (in retrospect). I can only speak for 2N and a few other programs I have learned about from attendees, but the staffing is good and extensive, and the programs are individualized.
The kids DO get to talk about things they choose- we were told week after week what our son wanted to address and what he wanted to know from us.
Yes, introspection can be done in other places, but it wasn't going to happen the way things were going at home. Adults go on retreats. Why do you think they do this? It's because you have to MAKE time in your life for reflection and take yourself out of your life. This is what wilderness does for a teen. Yes- against their will.
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I haven't heard one kid complain about the letters being read.
Most people on fornits are rolling their eyes at that statement. So let me ask you this: was graduation dependant only on finishing a set of requirements or did staff have to percieve a "change in attitude"?
If a kid wants to graduate, and has to be percieved as "changed", how could he or she complain without jeapodizing that?
WE didn't know when he was leaving until a week before. It isn't a fixed date.
That's a definite warning sign. Essentially, as you're explaining it, a program could keep the kid for as long as they felt necessary. Would that statement be accurate?
Impact letter- I think it served a crucial purpose. Therapy isn't easy or comfortable. I've never heard a kid complain about the impact letters or reading them in the group, either.Listen. The letters from my parents were read in group, and i found it *very* humiliating. I wanted to complain about it, but there was so much else that was worse, and If I told my parents I would have gotten consequences. This isn't just a theory, it happened to me until i stopped trying. I stopped crying for help because i felt my parents no longer cared (among other thoroughly depressing reasons).
If there are program kids out there who think this is a problem, I would be glad to hear from them, but this seems like a non-issue.
Yeah I think it's a problem. It was humiliating for me and i would *think* anybody else would have figured out that the involuntary public disclosure of personal issues is psychologically harmful.
How did you feel when somebody on fornits posted some of your personal information? Violated somehow? Multiply that by 100 or so.
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Ask Ginger to check my IP. This is about my 100th post on Fornits. All but the last 3 were anon. Most of my earlier posts were what ST parents would call "anti-program." Even now, I'm definitely not "for" wilderness therapy and am not convinced it was necessary or even that it was money well spent (notice my avatar).
I never implied you were Karen, just that you were joining up with her. Or you both got the notice that I replied to the thread at the same time... same effect.
One word for it is "hardship." But that's also an inadequate description. Also not a recognized therapeutic method, but it does have an effect on people.
Um, DUH? Thats the point, the effect it has on people is NOT A GOOD ONE, and it is NOT recognized therapy. Wonder why?
Boilerplate or not, it's pretty close to my son's assessment of what he did while he was out there.
SURELY a program would not try to mold in some form what he would think or feel about what was done to him in a program, right? Oh, wait... and btw, you ever considered what he says to you is said through the filter of a program kid and not someone who was not manipulated?
I guess you and I will forever disagree on the 'therapeutic' value of hiking and being away from civilization. My kids and I have been hiking in the wilderness since they were pre-schoolers. We didn't do it to burn calories, but to see and experience something that couldn't be had any other way.
Wow, you hike because you like it. That's nice. What about everyone who is not you? Why is it FORCED? What does it have to do with treating ADD, ADHD, depression, "issues", being raped, social skills, etc?
I will agree with you on one important point -- this has nothing to do with psychotherapy at all.
I'm glad we made a 'breakthrough' :rolleyes: Too bad its still done and still presented as such, or at least having the EFFECTS as such, even when they claim to fix things that are unfixable.
No, in the late 70s/early 80s I was more into the Sex Pistols, the Ramones and the Clash. But you just reminded me of The Wedding Singer, which was a pretty funny movie.
RDRR.
Others have attempted to answer it. I will piece together my own observations and what I have learned. More importantly, my son can tell you in his own words what he thinks was valuable about it, as well as what sucked about it.
You mean answerit in terms of actually being effective? It hasn't been done becuase it can't. There is no proof, it is not therapeutic, even though it is called that, until it is challenged, then it is 'emotional growth' and 'has effects on people' that are 'profound' but can't be 'explained' even though it is nearly '2007' and we have something called 'science' and 'proof' and a 'burden of proof'. :rolleyes:
And some of them have helped my son and my family a great deal. They have especially helped me avoid making a huge mistake -- or if you prefer, an even bigger mistake than the one you believe I already made by sending him to wilderness.
That is good to know, that really is. But you're still defending something emotionally that really needs to either have a factual basis or needs to just be put in the pile of all the other debunked quackery like Hysteria or Dr. Kellogg's theory about how to fix children. Need I get out some carbolic acid and demonstrate on your genitalia?
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No offense taken. No need to apologize. I'm just trying to beat around the bush saying *no flame war pretty please*
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There are no specific requirements for graduation from wilderness. There is no "graduation". You just go to transition camp with your family and then you leave. Some kids are still at the first "level" and some are at the top "level". It is very individualized and dependent on a lot of things- one of them being money!
It is not accurate that the program could keep the kid as long as it felt necessary. Every week we had an extensive phone session- or two-with the therapists and went over where things stood and what we and they thought about when to transition our son. Our input was carefully considered and we weighed what was said to us.
I guess I have been to enough group therapy sessions that the sharing of personal information in a trusted group does not alarm me. It was not a secret why these kids were there, and not much shocked the others. I think one of the purposes of the reading of the Impact Letters was to prevent the kids from minimizing what had gone on at home. A kid might report to the group that he smoked pot "once or twice"' and the impact letter might refer to being arrested for dealing or getting high at school every day. I believe it was important for the kids to own up to what they were doing. As it was, what the parents know about it usually just the tip of the iceberg.
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psy- Wilderness really does not work the same way the TBS programs do. It is not the same model.
Never said it was, just said it was nonsense. Two non-equal things can also be unequal to 'right'!
It isn't at all a "you'll stay until we break you and you get it" thing.
Says you? What they 'say' by their actions says something totally different.
Wilderness is really an interim thing and they NEVER claim it "fixes" kids.
Then WTF does it do?!?!
Very few kids are ready to go home after wilderness.
Says who? Why?
There are exceptions, and if our home situation/school etc. had been different, my son might have been one of them (in retrospect).
Again, says WHO, and WHY?
I can only speak for 2N and a few other programs I have learned about from attendees, but the staffing is good and extensive, and the programs are individualized.
Yet they all hike, read IMPACT letters, do SOLO, have to stay without knowing when they'll ever get out, and do 'group therapy'.
Oh, BTW, you still never answered how they make people who wont hike, hike. Is it pain compliance holds? Humiliation? More time there? Verbal Beratement? What about punishments?
The kids DO get to talk about things they choose- we were told week after week what our son wanted to address and what he wanted to know from us.
With the wilderness camp not making it a secret what they want him to talk about :rolleyes: And that doesn't change the stuff they DO NOT want to talk about being talked about...
Yes, introspection can be done in other places, but it wasn't going to happen the way things were going at home.
And whose fault is that, Karen? Why is HE suffering for that, Karen? Why is being dirty out in the woods/desert somehow going to make that happen more than simply being out of your house, Karen?
Adults go on retreats. Why do you think they do this? It's because you have to MAKE time in your life for reflection and take yourself out of your life. This is what wilderness does for a teen. Yes- against their will.
A RETREAT for an adult is such a far cry from a "wilderness" for a "teen", you might as well compare a mexican prison to a weekend at Cancun.
Being put into an extreme environment, being made to do stuff w/ith no real purpose, plus humiliating traumatic things like IMPACT letters, confrontational group therapy, forced hiking, and being trapped and not knowing when you can ever get out is not how someone learns to be introspective. Being in control, feeling safe, and not under any duress usually helps to give someone the ability to learn how to be introspective.
I think it says a lot about how great your son is for learning to do that in such a situation, not how good that Wilderness camp is.
But do NOT compare a vacation for an adult to a wilderness camp sentance to a child, Karen.
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You can show me all the statistics and articles in the world, but you will not convince me that my son was abused or mistreated in wilderness.
I'm not trying to convince you of that. I'm just saying you might want to ask him something like "what were the most unpleasant/uncomfortable things at wilderness" and then decide for yourself whether or not it happened. I'm not here to say it did or did not happen.
Regardless, the "impact letters" i see as abusive, and i find it odd that kids wouldn't complain about it. I see the answer in two possabilities: They were afraid to complain (postponed graudation), or they felt that was the least of the abuses. You'd have to ask your son again. Personally i'd rather talk about Carlbrook since you don't have much info on the wilderness program.
I am a believer in 12 step programs, but not for teens. I think belief in a higher power and turning the addiction over to a higher power is effective. Many disagree and many have failed to get sober in 12 step programs. Does this mean it is quackery and no one is really helped? Of course not.
You'll not find many AA supporters here. Most would recommend "Rational Recovery" instead. Plus. in AA you have to want to change, and realize you have a problem. Nobody can force you to do that, and programs that use AA(ish) usually fail because of that.
AA does work. But i think it should only be a last resort. After all, AA doesn't "cure" anything. People remain "recovering" ____ addicts for the rest of their lives.
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There are no specific requirements for graduation from wilderness. There is no "graduation". You just go to transition camp with your family and then you leave. Some kids are still at the first "level" and some are at the top "level". It is very individualized and dependent on a lot of things- one of them being money!
It is not accurate that the program could keep the kid as long as it felt necessary. Every week we had an extensive phone session- or two-with the therapists and went over where things stood and what we and they thought about when to transition our son. Our input was carefully considered and we weighed what was said to us.
I guess I have been to enough group therapy sessions that the sharing of personal information in a trusted group does not alarm me. It was not a secret why these kids were there, and not much shocked the others. I think one of the purposes of the reading of the Impact Letters was to prevent the kids from minimizing what had gone on at home. A kid might report to the group that he smoked pot "once or twice"' and the impact letter might refer to being arrested for dealing or getting high at school every day. I believe it was important for the kids to own up to what they were doing. As it was, what the parents know about it usually just the tip of the iceberg.
So no goals, nothing quantified, nothing measureable, just when we say so? Yeah, thats really therapeutic, especially when you cant leave and go back to the real world until "they say so". Good way to make them try as hard as they can to make the people who say so happy, isn't it?
Also, did he get any unfettered uncensored unmonitored phone time with you, or just with the program's therapists present?
Furthermore, what you want to willingly share to a 'trusted group' does NOT reflect what a CHILD is MADE to infront of a bunch of other CHILDREN that are most certainly not a 'trusted group', except for the fact that they have no way what-so-fucking-ever to tell anyone what they heard anyway.
I think one of the purposes of the reading of the Impact Letters was to prevent the kids from minimizing what had gone on at home. A kid might report to the group that he smoked pot "once or twice"' and the impact letter might refer to being arrested for dealing or getting high at school every day. I believe it was important for the kids to own up to what they were doing.
That is called CONFRONTATION and HUMILIATION, Karen. That is exactly the point we're trying to bring up here. That is not therapy. That is "you bad kid, you had it great and you ruined it, now you're living in filth, you naughty boy, you better improve or you'll never get out!".
Its not psychotherapy, its interrogation, forced confession, and that has no place with someone who is supposed to get therapy.
BTW, just what is in the IMPACT LETTER for someone who is there for 'social skills', ADD, ADHD, Depression, or because they were raped or otherwise abused?
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psy- Wilderness really does not work the same way the TBS programs do. It is not the same model.
The only reason "wilderness" and "TBS" can coexist in the same thought or thread is that the target customer base (StugglingParents) is the same. Beyond that, they have very little in common. I would argue (and have argued) that if a teen gets some benefit from wilderness (some do), there is a significant chance that the benefit will be undone if he/she is directly shipped off from wilderness to a residential program. Hopelessness and the feeling that no matter what one does, he has no control over his immediate future is not a very therapeutic emotional state, IMHO.
I never had any intention of sending my kid away to a so-called school, and when I started getting pressure to make such a decision -- halfway through his 7 weeks in wilderness -- I found Fornits & ST, and met a number of activists, program parents, ex-program parents, etc., and I started to get educated. The more I learned, the more convinced I was that someone was trying to sell me something my child and my family didn't need. Ironically, my son's wilderness program didn't steer me toward any particular TBS's and as far as I could determine, they really had no financial connection with any other programs.
No one should be naive enough to think that 7 weeks of anything is going to address problems that took years to develop, or that anyone is going to be "fixed" in any way. The same can be said for a 12-18 month stint in a residential program.
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Yet the children are still sure as hell kept out in the woods for weeks at a time and then locked up in a TBS for years at a time, even though it doesn't do anything...
so why do you do it? :roll: Where is the justification? All you have done is try to avoid the whole "IT DOESNT DO ANYTHING" thing we've brought up along with the lack of evidence issue, but now you're basically saying you're doing something for no reason.
:roll: wow.
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Im sure no kid complains about the impact letter because behaving appropriately is an essential part of progression. To complain makes it look as if you are an unwilling participant. I dont doubt that what some parents write might be true. I just dont understand how forcing a kid to share it with the world can be seen as without humiliation. Why was it that you chose this route and not the natural consequences of being kciked out of school which i assume would be going to the local public school for a while? Would the local school not accept your son?
And what if the tables were turned... and the parents received some of this Impact "therapy". Say we round up all their friends from the country club and business associates and let the kid read his Impact letter, listing all the many ways his parents had failed and the emotional/ psychological/ developmental issue this caused him.
Whadda ya say Karen, would you be game? Can you imagine how that scenario could be therapeutic for you?
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Niles- I'm sorry, but I can't deal with you. Perhaps my tag-team partner can do better.
My ONLY point in discussing adult retreats was to point out that introspection is hard to do in the midst of real life. It often has to be forced.
You are attacking me and I'm not going to engage. Sorry.
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Karen, how good does THIS feel right now to you, over the internet, on a computer, with nobody to stare at you getting CONFRONTED by all of us, on computers, hundreds or thousands of miles away.
Sucks, huh?
Imagine being a child, helpless, stuck out in the middle of nowhere, dependant on the people you turn to for survival doing this to you, in person, with people watching and Jeering, saying I AGREE evertime someone pulls you down or picks you apart, forced to read aloud a IMAPACT letter about all the wrongs you've ever done, with no clue when you'll ever escape.
And I'm not even gonna go into how much the hygene issue sucks for girls out there... you can figure that out yourself. Just be glad they allow daily pantyliners.
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Niles- I'm sorry, but I can't deal with you. Perhaps my tag-team partner can do better.
My ONLY point in discussing adult retreats was to point out that introspection is hard to do in the midst of real life. It often has to be forced.
You are attacking me and I'm not going to engage. Sorry.
No, you are avoiding, parrying, feinting, pushing to the side and doding, and not engaging in anything.
You have no facts, proof, or evidence, just emotional appeals. You say outright you BELIEVE so much you would refuse evidential proof if it were presented to you.
And now you say you can't deal with ME, so you won't deal with what I said, even though those questions need to be answered.
So, does someone else have to ask the same thing I asked, Karen?
GOSH, DOESN'T THIS SUCK ON THE INTERNET? IMAGINE WHAT ITS LIKE FOR A CHILD IN A PROGRAM. :flame:
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psy- Wilderness really does not work the same way the TBS programs do. It is not the same model. It isn't at all a "you'll stay until we break you and you get it" thing. Wilderness is really an interim thing and they NEVER claim it "fixes" kids.
Then why did you send your kid?
we were told week after week what our son wanted to address and what he wanted to know from us.
Again. You were told through the program. They get to play the role of the unscrupulous language translator, twisting the meaning and conversation in a direction they please. As a middleman in communication you can control both sides of the argument. Think about it. With those sat phones why didn't they just let the kids walk off to the nearest tree alone, and call home?
Yes, introspection can be done in other places, but it wasn't going to happen the way things were going at home. Adults go on retreats. Why do you think they do this? It's because you have to MAKE time in your life for reflection and take yourself out of your life. This is what wilderness does for a teen. Yes- against their will.
Here's a question. and i don't mean this an offensive manner. I truly wonder if you had considered this option: What if you took off from work, and took your kid hiking for a few months. You could even hire a guide to teach you that wilderness stuff. Being alone as a family in the wilderness together there is bound to be dialogue, and through that, mutual understanding.
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Niles- I'm sorry, but I can't deal with you. Perhaps my tag-team partner can do better.
My ONLY point in discussing adult retreats was to point out that introspection is hard to do in the midst of real life. It often has to be forced.
You are attacking me and I'm not going to engage. Sorry.
No, you are avoiding, parrying, feinting, pushing to the side and doding, and not engaging in anything.
You have no facts, proof, or evidence, just emotional appeals. You say outright you BELIEVE so much you would refuse evidential proof if it were presented to you.
And now you say you can't deal with ME, so you won't deal with what I said, even though those questions need to be answered.
So, does someone else have to ask the same thing I asked, Karen?
GOSH, DOESN'T THIS SUCK ON THE INTERNET? IMAGINE WHAT ITS LIKE FOR A CHILD IN A PROGRAM. :flame:
niles. cut it out. charley. just skip past his posts. i want to hear what you have to say.
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Ok, then you sugar coat my queries. :roll:
They still need to be answered, even if shes too much of a pussy to take even a fraction of what she put her child through for a lot of his adolescent life.
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Deb-- I have openly shared my failings as a parent and as an adult with groups at both my son's programs, as well as a treatment group I was in in my town. My son has talked about his family issues with us present at group sessions. Of course it is tough to hear, but it's part of therapy.
I actually shared some of my family issues with The Wall Street Journal, and was quoted. I received several calls from social and business associates thanking me for my honesty. (this was way before my son was in a program)
So-you are heading the wrong way with that one, Deborah.
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And what if the tables were turned... and the parents received some of this Impact "therapy". Say we round up all their friends from the country club and business associates and let the kid read his Impact letter, listing all the many ways his parents had failed and the emotional/ psychological/ developmental issue this caused him.
You just described a significant part of the 3-day family session that concluded his time at wilderness, except for the part about "the country club and business associates" who were not present. You're right, it was not fun to be called on all of my own failures and my own shit. I still think it was one of the most important 3 days we've ever spent together as a family.
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Kudos for honesty when they knew what about how truthful you were being or how much you spun it to suit yourself, and how much of it was programmie jargon and boilerplate?
Lets give a big round of applause for Karen the attourney!
You mean your spin on your family issues and sidestepping what you did to your son?
You can't even take this. This is text on the internet. You couldn't imagine this daily, could you?
Imagine me in your face and you can't get away, you're helpless, you cant turn me off becuase Im a person and not a computer, you're not in your house, you're in the middle of fucking nowhere. I give you food and shelter, I say when you eat sleep shit and hike, I can make it worse for you, and I decide when you get to leave and when you make progress.
Try to imagine that Karen. Just try to wrap your mind around that. Because thats the reality of what your own flesh and blood went through.
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And what if the tables were turned... and the parents received some of this Impact "therapy". Say we round up all their friends from the country club and business associates and let the kid read his Impact letter, listing all the many ways his parents had failed and the emotional/ psychological/ developmental issue this caused him.
You just described a significant part of the 3-day family session that concluded his time at wilderness, except for the part about "the country club and business associates" who were not present. You're right, it was not fun to be called on all of my own failures and my own shit. I still think it was one of the most important 3 days we've ever spent together as a family.
And what good did it actually do? What changes did you make? Is it effective therapy at all?
Does that excuse the suffering a child went through? You had the option to leave. You had the option to say enough, fuck you, Im gonna go get a hotel, Im gonna say Uncle. Three days as an adult with rights does not compare to weeks as someone's bitch out in the woods.
But hey, suffering = thriving = growth = tough love = life hurts = no pain no gain right? :silly:
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psy- Our son wouldn't go anywhere with us. He hated us, hated his life, was deep into self-medicating with risky behavior and ruined everything we tried to do with him. He would no more have gone camping with us than he would have taken himself to wilderness!
We trusted the therapist and he never violated that trust. My son trusted him, too, and we got an accurate view of what my son was working on.
These kids did not need to be talking on the phone to their families. Our son would have refused.
My son was in program for a year. Total. One year.
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Hey, Karen, imagine that year of life in a little institution getting the crap you're getting for me.
You there? I know you see this. I know you're reading this. I know youre avoiding. Get out of your head, Karen, I think the group wants to know!
Want some IMPACT letters to kickstart it? I think everyone knows just as well as you and I what would be on those letters...
Yanno, I don't think you'll ever get your emotional growth and face your own mistakes unless someone makes you suffer a little. Afterall, its neither easy nor comfortable, for a child, why should it be for his mom?
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No it isn't, Niles. My son was not with YOU in the wilderness. He was with excellent staff and therapists and he enjoys the outdoors.
He was not treated the way you treat people. I would have pulled him immediately if anyone even remotely resembling you ever got near him. Hell, I would take him out of PENN if anyone like you was near him.
Sorry, psy.
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Really?
Why the FUCK didn't you, Karen? :flame:
Did you forget, or think we forgot, what the people who had actually been there have had to say about these places? How many more people have to say it on the part of kid, staff, parent, and EXPERT (and you are not one) before it sinks in to your head?
THIS is confrontation! THIS is what it is like! THIS is facing your demons!
Sufficiently uncomfortable and difficult yet?
Your demon is what you did to your child for weeks at a time living in filth. Why not go roll around in your back yard and then stay that way, and not even change your underwear for a week, as well as showering weekly. Then have to face up to what you did.
How about I get a bunch fo strangers and tell you to read out a letter of all the shit you've done wrong out loud to them, how would you like that?
Just remember, this is text, a computer, the internet, and you are safe in your house. You are not having to face the intimidation you would get from an adult who has control over you, your food, and shelter, and can hurt you to make you do what he wants, especially as a child, especially with all that combined out in the middle of nowhere.
So tell me, Karen, how did the people who sat out get coersed into marching or doing those repetitive tasks or made to read those damned IMPACT letters?
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SHUT UP. everybody... this thread is going straight down the shitter. let's just all log off and take a break ok...
Well it's all up to you. either one of you can end this argument right now by not responding to the other party. If you want a full blown flame war again i wash my hands of this.
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Hey, why do that? She sure thinks its okay to force this on her own fucking son, in person, with all the other conditions I laid out pretty clearly.
Why on earth can't she take a watered down, internet, face-to-monitor, you can take a break if you gotta go cry version of her own son's medicine.
I mean it worked for HIM... and it's KARENS responsibility what she gets out of this!
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Niles, I'm serious...are you drunk?
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Hey, why do that? Sure sure thinks its okay to force this on her own fucking son, in person, with all the other conditions I laid out pretty clearly.
Why on earth can't she take a watered down, internet, face-to-monitor, you can take a break if you gotta go cry version of her own son's medicine.
becuase she doesn't deserve it. Nobody deserves it. I didn't.. nobody did. no matter what they did. This ain't program and this most certainly ain't a rap. I wouldn't put anybody through that shit (though it did cross my mind a few times with my parents)
Monitor or not, words can hurt.
I mean it worked for HIM... and it's KARENS responsibility what she gets out of this!
And it's not your responsibility to try and force her to understand something that is probably going to take her a long time to "get". People don't just change their opinions overnight and attacking them only works in a situation where you can't leave.
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Nope. I'm quite focused and I have a REASON I'm doing this and I think it is pretty apparent. I'm quite sober, actually.
If she can't take this utterly pussied out version of what a child is forced to go through by her own penstroke then maybe she should reconsider how nonabusive it all is, because I'm not being nearly as bad as I could be, and this is the fucking internet on a forum, she can take a break, she can go cry, she can just walk away and go get flustered.
If she can't take this, god, imagine how shed wilt under this shit in person! But oh well I guess its only good for someone else right?
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Hey, why do that? Sure sure thinks its okay to force this on her own fucking son, in person, with all the other conditions I laid out pretty clearly.
Why on earth can't she take a watered down, internet, face-to-monitor, you can take a break if you gotta go cry version of her own son's medicine.
becuase she doesn't deserve it. Nobody deserves it. I didn't.. nobody did. no matter what they did. This ain't program and this most certainly ain't a rap.
Monitor or not, words can hurt.
I mean it worked for HIM... and it's KARENS responsibility what she gets out of this!
And it's not your responsibility to try and force her to understand something that is probably going to take her a long time to "get". People don't just change their opinions overnight and attacking them only works in a situation where you can't leave.
Kinda mean's we're right, doesn't it, Psy?
I dunno, if she gets her karmic smack in the ass that she'd had coming for years I won't feel too bad about it. Afterall, if she learns some EMPATHY, the ends justify the means! :rofl:
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Oh, man. :P :rofl:
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Afterall, if she learns some EMPATHY, the ends justify the means! :rofl:
Is that not the same exact rhetoric many program people use?
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Afterall, if she learns some EMPATHY, the ends justify the means! :rofl:
Is that not the same exact rhetoric many program people use?
As well as commies. The ends will always justify the means my good boy.
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That's the point. That's the point exactly.
Maybe setting a fucking example and making someone go cry becuase of letters on the internet might, just might, make that little grinch's heart start beating again and grow bigger and realize what a fucking IMPACT LETTER can do to someone.
She read my IMPACT POSTS to HERSELF and she had to sit out. I rest my fucking case.
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That's the point. That's the point exactly.
Maybe setting a fucking example and making someone go cry becuase of letters on the internet might, just might, make that little grinch's heart start beating again and grow bigger and realize what a fucking IMPACT LETTER can do to someone.
NO. you are missing my point entirely. Those impact letters make people shut off. Confrontation only "works" in a situation where you can't leave.
She read my IMPACT POSTS to HERSELF and she had to sit out. I rest my fucking case.
SUMMARY: Confrontation does not work. Here, or ANYWHERE!!
Hurting somebody is not going to jumpstart their heart. It will make them shut off.
Here you shut off your computer, in program, you shut off your heart.
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Yanno what, I think I should stop. I guess more than one person is working through some issues today.
Sorry Karen, but hopefully in time you'll realize why sometimes we blow up like this. You don't deserve it anymore than anyone else, but I'm only human, I only have so much tolerance, so much restraint, and doing worse than this to children is not something that I can just stand forever.
Psy's the bigger person here. I really don't know how you do it. Maybe I just burned out, I dunno. But maybe you'll have better luck getting through to her.
I guess it takes the right person to say the same thing to get an answer.
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Curious that everyone talks about studies and evidence-based therapeutic methods, and yet I could never find a single study of TBS youth outcomes. There was that NATSAP-sponsored b.s. a couple months ago, but that was too obvious and too easy to shred.
What about wilderness? There are lots of studies. Sure you can debate and shred the peer reviewers, bias or lack thereof, but still there is some evidence, and not all of it smells like b.s. and not all of it is rosy pro-program results.
The Wilderness Research Center at the University of Idaho has published several studies, as has the Wilderness Research Center at the University of Minnesota. Some but not all of these are sponsored by the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Research Cooperative, which I am well aware is something of a trade group like NATSAP.
The most interesting finding I recall was a study that showed treatment outcomes after 2 years were about the same for the group that did community-based therapy after wilderness as for the group that did TBS after wilderness. Not much of an argument for sending your child away and spending 10s of thousands of dollars, yet this is the most common scenario for most kids who attend wilderness -- anywhere from 75-90% go on to residential "aftercare."
I can't find the study right now, but I'm sure my son can. He referenced it in a paper he wrote for school on the subject of wilderness therapy. I find that pretty ironic, since the assignment was to write a term paper on a controversial topic of current interest. Well, it sure as hell was of current interest to him at the time, being only a few months away from the Utah dirt! And no doubt it is a controversial subject, whether you believe it has any "therapeutic" value or not. He felt that it did, at least for him.
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Nice little verbal outburst there..
Too bad all you've done is reinforce what our said, that wilderness is just the first stage in the TBS cash-cow-pipeline, and not show that they do anything but... get kids to go to programs. :rofl:
I also find it funny you need 'aftercare' after 'therapy'. The only time I hear of 'aftercare' is after major surgery or a intense BDSM scene.
Funny how much BDSM is like what you do to kids without thier consent, huh?
OBFUSCATION! WHEEEEEEEEEE!
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Yanno what, I think I should stop. I guess more than one person is working through some issues today.
Sorry Karen, but hopefully in time you'll realize why sometimes we blow up like this. You don't deserve it anymore than anyone else, but I'm only human, I only have so much tolerance, so much restraint, and doing worse than this to children is not something that I can just stand forever.
Psy's the bigger person here. I really don't know how you do it.
When getting attacked in a rap at Benchmark, you couldn't defend yourself. You weren't allowed to.
Did benchmark teach me self control? No. It taught me to take a beating and ignore it like nothing happened. Stronger now? Perhaps from a certain perspective... More frigid now? Most definitely.
I still get angry occassionally but usually only at programs. Programs brainwash both parents and kids and you can't just yell them out of it (at least not without duct-tape)
Maybe I just burned out, I dunno. But maybe you'll have better luck getting through to her.
I guess it takes the right person to say the same thing to get an answer.
I aggree with that. I hope she comes back because i'd like to ask her a few more questions about Carlbrook here...
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Deb-- I have openly shared my failings as a parent and as an adult with groups at both my son's programs, as well as a treatment group I was in in my town. My son has talked about his family issues with us present at group sessions. Of course it is tough to hear, but it's part of therapy.
I actually shared some of my family issues with The Wall Street Journal, and was quoted. I received several calls from social and business associates thanking me for my honesty. (this was way before my son was in a program)
So-you are heading the wrong way with that one, Deborah.
Huge difference between YOU sharing your failings and having your child IMPACT you in front of your friends and peers. Not nearly as humiliating when you pick and choose what you divulge. It's unethical.
These places "work" for some for the same reason jail works for some.
Huffines says it best:
Some of my patients are referred to me with a history of having been in a therapeutic boarding school. Once they have come to trust me they will share with me the kind of tales we find on this web site; horrific details of abusive and grossly inappropriate treatment. I have heard these stories too many times. The stories vary however. Occasionally I have heard some positive stories where a youth has been treated with respect and caring in an appropriately run facility, but even then it is against their will. I see very little evidence that even these kids have been helped. The bad stories prevail. I care deeply for youth I work with. I have a strong bias of positive regard for all youth I meet because I genuinely like adolescents. When I hear of mistreatment in facilities that are supposed to care for youth I feel the betrayal and see the harm it has done to my patient. My reaction has been one of extreme anger. This has mobilized me to be an activist in trying to address the system failings that allow these travesties to continue. How could any adult do differently if they are a decent human being and have normal instincts of care and concern for kids? It horrifies me that in our society we can enter into a mass denial that lets these facilities exist.....
Involuntary residential care outside of such a legal process cannot be therapeutic, no mater how humane and well intended the staff, as it undercuts and essential aspect of adolescent development, the achievement of autonomy. It is NOT therapeutic because the loss of rights does damage to a sense of self. It undercuts the formation of a personal identity. As with restraint and seclusion, it may be necessary to save a life, but it has a very large cost. It represents a failure, or an absence, of community-based treatment. In such circumstances, such active coercion needs to be ended in the shortest possible time, preferably only a few days. Individuals detained, even in a state of psychotic thinking, should be offered trauma support and counseling, similar to what is commonly recommended after an episode of restraint, to undo the damage caused by such coercion.
I personally believe that if our laws that protect youth rights in mental health and substance abuse treatment were changed from 13 to 16 or 18, the State of Washington would have a flood of locked residential programs emerge around Seattle just as in Idaho, Utah and Montana. I strongly believe that we will not solve the problem of unsafe, non-therapeutic, inappropriate residential treatment until youth are given rights to consent to care in all 50 states. If Idaho, Montana and Utah and all other states had such laws, and had strong Protection and Advocacy agencies in their states to assure adherence to such laws, we would not have the problems we do today and youth such as most of you would no longer endure the abuse and humiliation you have suffered....
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=145&Itemid=35)
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Nice little verbal outburst there..
Too bad all you've done is reinforce what our said, that wilderness is just the first stage in the TBS cash-cow-pipeline, and not show that they do anything but... get kids to go to programs. :rofl:
I also find it funny you need 'aftercare' after 'therapy'. The only time I hear of 'aftercare' is after major surgery or a intense BDSM scene.
You exactly nailed the thing that first raised red flags for me, when I first heard phrases like "therapeutic boarding school" and "aftercare" coming from the therapists at wilderness. WTF? I thought. Only then did I discover the linkage between wilderness and TBS, the cash-cow-pipeline and some of the other nonsense that goes with this industry.
I also found it funny that you would need 'aftercare' after 'therapy.' But to my way of thinking at the time, wilderness was a desperate last resort to get him to take a good look around -- within and without -- and get himself some real therapy. Wilderness was an intervention, a wake-up call. It had some therapeutic elements to it, and some elements of boosting self-esteem, but it wasn't intended to be "the main course," so to speak. And like I said, TBS or RTC wasn't even something that was on the radar screen for us. Even if the cost were zero, that was simply not going to happen.
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Its about as useful as a wake up call as me beating Karen with her own medicine was.
TBS is not real therapy, and you dont make people get therapy by abusing them first. Thats unethical, unnecessary, and pretty ineffective. Do you think Karen wants to talk right now? Think she's open right now? Oh, maybe a few weeks of this in my backyard without showers eating MREs and oatmeal might make her more 'open' :rofl:
Hey, is her self esteem high right now? No... i'd imagine its pretty crushed right now!!! How the hell does 'wilderness' or ANYTHING a program, camp, or what I just did help self esteem?
They SAY they do it, but when you get specifics, it sure tells another story, don't you agree?
Scared straight bullshit doesn't work, the APA has already demonstrated that, and just common sense does too. You were a kid, don't you remember being one?
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Okay, I gotta ask... How did a 70s Punk Rebel get sold on a Wilderness program???
Ever see a therapist advertise that they'll 'fix' your kid in X number days/weeks? No. There's a reason. Ethical therapy with lasting results that aren't an assault to the person's psyche take time.
How 'effective' would wilderness be if all their bm torture bullshit was taken away? They got 6 weeks to break the kids will. Gotta employ some pretty abusive tactics to accomplish that.
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Its about as useful as a wake up call as me beating Karen with her own medicine was.
TBS is not real therapy, and you dont make people get therapy by abusing them first. Thats unethical, unnecessary, and pretty ineffective. Do you think Karen wants to talk right now? Think she's open right now? Oh, maybe a few weeks of this in my backyard without showers eating MREs and oatmeal might make her more 'open' :rofl:
Hey, is her self esteem high right now? No... i'd imagine its pretty crushed right now!!! How the hell does 'wilderness' or ANYTHING a program, camp, or what I just did help self esteem?
They SAY they do it, but when you get specifics, it sure tells another story, don't you agree?
Scared straight bullshit doesn't work, the APA has already demonstrated that, and just common sense does too.
What Karen is feeling right now and what my son was feeling after 7 weeks in the wilderness are probably very different on many levels. There were genuine self-esteem boosts my son experienced, related to physical, emotional and task-specific accomplishments. He learned a lot, and by no means was all of it from the program staff or the other participants. He learned a lot just from the experience, from finding out just how capable he really is. This wasn't about getting "scared straight" or about "tough love." This was about spending 7 weeks away from civilization to figure some shit out with a clear head, and having a safety net to make sure he didn't fucking die in the process.
I have a friend who is a bit older than I, who practices what I can only describe as a Native American spirituality or "religion" if you prefer. This guy routinely goes out on his own in the wilderness for weeks at a time on personal "vision quests" and finds them very rewarding. He does crazy shit like fasting for 3 days while hiking endless miles -- stuff a program would never (and should never) be allowed to do, even to consenting adults with properly signed release forms. My son knows him and had many conversations about all that stuff, and about what my son was going through, prior to wilderness. Considering that we had tried everything with him already, and considering he had already had a few close brushes with death and had begged us for help, I thought that a similar kind of wilderness experience might be more appropriate than a 30-day inpatient detox followed by yet another string of therapists, none of whom were likely to 'click' with him. There were times in his early phases of wilderness where he wished we would've just sent him to inpatient rehab. But by the time he was done, he was feeling very different about it. He was confident, physically and spiritually strong, and genuinely enjoying most aspects of the experience. He also has a newfound knowledge of and respect for the environment, and has become very interested in environmental activism. I can't find fault with any of that.
The most regrettable aspect of the whole thing, for me, was the coercion, which I understand is very un-therapeutic. My son can list a few other regrettable aspects, especially the sucky food, but he understands the coercion. We struggled a lot with that, considering there was a good chance he would agree to go willingly. He says in retrospect, that was probably the only way. He would've asked too many questions on the long trip to Utah and would've been really unhappy about the 7-week duration. Two or three weeks, sure. But 7 weeks was most of his summer vacation.
You were a kid, don't you remember being one?
According to my wife, I'm still a teenager in a middle-aged body. I was definitely what many parents would consider "program material" when I was his age, but I grew out of some of the crazier shit I did back then. I don't wish for my son to be any different than he is -- rebelliousness and all. I don't even wish for him to have a substance-free lifestyle (hell, I don't!). I just didn't want to bury him before he was 18. That's so cliche, and 'program-speak' and all that, but in his case it really was a possibility, and one that we came close to facing more than once.
I can't credit the wilderness program with "saving" him, and I can't really say that he was completely unharmed by it. But he likes who he is today, he is not actively or passively trying to kill himself or putting his body in a state of extreme chemical distress, and he has hopes and plans for the future. Like all of us, he is the sum total of all his experiences, thoughts, ideas and beliefs. For better or worse, his wilderness experience is now a part of what has shaped him into who he is today.
Oddly, he is a lot more "ok" with that than I am.
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Suffering but feeling capable? What?
You mean to tell me all the psycho-bullshit interrogations and confrontational crap, intersperced with repetetive difficult tasks somehow boosted self esteem?
No.
What happened is when the bullshit was over, or at least mostly over, and he saw the light at the end of the tunnel, and learend how to do what the camp wanted him to do, he started to feel better because he didn't feel as hopeless and they didn't hurt him as much.
You do not force people to do shit against thier will, and when they suceed at doing it and enduring your shit somehow get a "self esteem boost" from that like how I can shove a cam into a motor and give it a power boost. It does not work that way, thats nonsense, thats bupkus, its baloney, its bullshit.
This was about spending 7 weeks away from civilization to figure some shit out with a clear head, and having a safety net to make sure he didn't fucking die in the process.
Too bad that safety net doesn't work that much to keep him ALIVE, and definitely doesn't do much for psychological injuries, considering that part of a "wilderness" is to cause a breakdown/breakthrough episode... its not about being able to think with a clear head at all. Its about shit put into his head by the people there called 'counselors'!
So, if I put someone in Sobibor, and teach him to play violin he gets a self esteem boost? Riiiight :wink:
There were times in his early phases of wilderness where he wished we would've just sent him to inpatient rehab. But by the me he was done, he was feeling very different about it.
That is kind of what a "program" does, be it with a wilderness camp or a TBS... that's a point we have been trying to make for 100+ pages of this thread. Maybe you should think about WHY he felt differently after they were done with him!
For better or worse, his wilderness experience is now a part of what has shaped him into who he is today.
Oddly, he is a lot more "ok" with that than I am.
You should think about that keeping in mind what we've all said, too.
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Suffering but feeling capable? What?
You mean to tell me all the psycho-bullshit interrogations and confrontational crap, intersperced with repetetive difficult tasks somehow boosted self esteem?
No.
What happened is when the bullshit was over, or at least mostly over, and he saw the light at the end of the tunnel, and learend how to do what the camp wanted him to do, he started to feel better because he didn't feel as hopeless and they didn't hurt him as much.
In his view, they never hurt him at all, psychologically or otherwise. I tend to be a little more skeptical, since I know that part of group "sharing" is revealing a lot of personal stuff, all the things you've done that hurt others, etc., and brutal honesty is expected...and usually achieved. Participation can be very cathartic or it can be humiliating and damaging, depending on how the person feels about participating and "sharing."
This was about spending 7 weeks away from civilization to figure some shit out with a clear head, and having a safety net to make sure he didn't fucking die in the process.
Too bad that safety net doesn't work that much to keep him ALIVE, and definitely doesn't do much for psychological injuries, considering that part of a "wilderness" is to cause a breakdown/breakthrough episode... its not about being able to think with a clear head at all. Its about shit put into his head by the people there called 'counselors'!
Oh, but it did keep him alive. The participants quickly learn the Utah regulations on hiking, water, minimum calories, etc. because it becomes obvious that the staff are following some specific rules. Funny you should mention counselors filling his head with shit, since he didn't think he got a lot of value from the two licensed therapists that worked with him ("the usual talk therapy stuff"). On the other hand, he learned a lot from the field staffers, most of whom are self-described fuckups in thier late teens and early 20s.
So, if I put someone in Sobibor, and teach him to play violin he gets a self esteem boost? Riiiight :wink:
A good analogy...almost. I would put it this way: if you take someone who has mostly been taken care of and 'rescued' by their parents for their entire life, and you put them in a "Survivor" type setting, and teach them how to survive with nothing but their wits and a knife, then yes, they can get a self-esteem boost and a feeling of accomplishment from having mastered something that is very difficult and demanding.
Then you bring them back home from that setting and say, "look kid, this is your life and your deal. We're not bailing you out of jail anymore. We're not covering for you with school anymore. We're not going to police your substance abuse or your recovery or your therapy. If you want to go back to the way things were, just remember that we're only responsible for you until you turn 18. After that, you're free to walk out the door, and we are free to insist that you walk out the fucking door if it comes to that. We've done everything we could think of to try to help you. The rest is up to you. Time to sink or swim."
Freedom and responsibility. That is a much bigger self-esteem boost.
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Punk, you sound like a reasonable person.
Have you contemplated why wilderness programs feed the kids such crappy food and inadequate calories? Why they march them to exhaustion? Why they live and sleep outdoors in extreme weather conditions? Why they wash from the same cup they eat from. Why the kid has no uncensored contact with parents, at least until they've conditioned them a bit?
Introspection, journaling, learning to start a fire with a bow drill, tracking, contemplating the universe, learning the solar system.... all fun and useful things.
Which aspect of the program do you think had the greatest influence on your son and why? Learning fun and useful things, or being subjected to neglect and abuse?
Do you think the same could've been accomplished without all the methods I stated in the first paragraph? And, if the counseling community considers them unethical, why are they allowed under the guise of 'therapy'? Do you feel the experimentalist have a leg up on the mental health professionals who oppose such 'treatment'? If they've stumbled on to a ground-breaking, revolutionary treatment regime, why aren't they publishing it (legitimately) and yelling it from rooftops? Would they actually divulge what their real methods are? No.
Can't you see the headlines?
Revolutionary cure for low self esteem, addictions of all manner, rebellion and violent behavior. Isolation from the real world, a sparse diet of oats, lentils, and rice. No condiments. Forced marches in boots that don't fit and cause blisters, in the blazing sun or sub zero temperatures.... blah, blah, blah.
The general consensus amongst civilized people is that their methods (not what's on their website, but what actually happens) are abusive. A parent would loose custody for doing the same to their own kid. Doesn't mean a kid might not learn something useful while being tortured, and might even 'change'. They may have changed after 6 weeks in juvie too.
I think the two are more alike than different. Why can't the industry, and parents, call a spade a spade? It's plain and simple parent-choice Involuntary Incarceration.
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"look kid, this is your life and your deal. We're not bailing you out of jail anymore. We're not covering for you with school anymore. We're not going to police your substance abuse or your recovery or your therapy. If you want to go back to the way things were, just remember that we're only responsible for you until you turn 18. After that, you're free to walk out the door, and we are free to insist that you walk out the fucking door if it comes to that. We've done everything we could think of to try to help you. The rest is up to you. Time to sink or swim."
Freedom and responsibility. That is a much bigger self-esteem boost.
Uh, dude... if you do that, you don't use a wilderness or tbs program, you JUST DO IT, and secondly, that DOES work!!!
That camp you sent him to just made him play in the dirt for a few weeks before he got a chance to do that, so I don't understand that analogy.
I can say with some confidence if you had done that without wasting a small fortune on that damn camp you could have instead spent that money on yourself and your son when he went out, lived a little and then came back to start a healthy relationship with you :)
Sorry to not keep this post entirely optimistic but I have to make a point of this:
In his view, they never hurt him at all, psychologically or otherwise. I tend to be a little more skeptical, since I know that part of group "sharing" is revealing a lot of personal stuff, all the things you've done that hurt others, etc., and brutal honesty is expected...and usually achieved. Participation can be very cathartic or it can be humiliating and damaging, depending on how the person feels about participating and "sharing."
That is a very risky flip of a coin to subject to someone. A few individuals might be cathartically helped by that, but its mostly a PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT, not actual therapy or actual 'growth'. This has already been addressed in this thread, and for that matter, decades ago by the medical community.
That is not something that can be condoned or forced on anyone, at all, period... and yet it is done to every kid that goes through a program and is a bit stupid.
And, for that matter, as many have said before, he might have been TOLD it was cathartic instead of humiliating... remember that! This is what he says after he is done with the program, not without the influence of a program to change his perceptions.
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Then you bring them back home from that setting and say, "look kid, this is your life and your deal. We're not bailing you out of jail anymore. We're not covering for you with school anymore. We're not going to police your substance abuse or your recovery or your therapy. If you want to go back to the way things were, just remember that we're only responsible for you until you turn 18. After that, you're free to walk out the door, and we are free to insist that you walk out the fucking door if it comes to that. We've done everything we could think of to try to help you. The rest is up to you. Time to sink or swim."
And why would this be more effective 'after' a program than before?
Isn't placement in a program just another attempt at 'rescue'? Is this what you did, and are you prepared to following through with it?
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And why would this be more effective 'after' a program than before? Isn't placement in a program just another attempt at 'rescue'? Is this what you did, and are you prepared to following through with it?
It was more effective afterward because I was able to communicate directly with my son instead of the chemical 'him' that he had been for quite some time before. Wilderness was another attempt at rescue -- a final attempt.
I/we are prepared to follow through on making him be responsible for his actions and his personal well-being. It's been 5 months since he got home and there haven't been any reasons to think I would have to kick him out when he turns 18. He has it pretty good here -- he would be the first to say so. But he understands when I say "look dude, this is my house. I can't have cops showing up here, or drug deals going down on the side of the house," and that kind of stuff. Once he moves out, he can do whatever the fuck he wants in his own place.
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Have you contemplated why wilderness programs feed the kids such crappy food and inadequate calories?
Actually, Deb, attacking them on this one doesn't always work- I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and provide a counterexample (http://http://www.aspiro-inc.com/). This wilderness program looks like it's making a very desperate attempt not to be (or appear?) evil.
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Niles- Please don't think you "impacted me" or hurt me in any way. I left because I was wasting my time and I am not going to deal with your anger. I just don't need to and I'm not going to do it. I will discuss with others if there are questions I can answer.
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Niles- Please don't think you "impacted me" or hurt me in any way. I left because I was wasting my time and I am not going to deal with your anger. I just don't need to and I'm not going to do it. I will discuss with others if there are questions I can answer.
Karen,
My outburst, whether it had an effect on you or not, was wrong, whether or not you 'deserve it' in my opinion or not. Nobody deserves it, neither you nor me, nor children or teenagers.
Nevertheless, the questions I asked still need to be answered, and if not to me, then to everyone else.
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And why would this be more effective 'after' a program than before? Isn't placement in a program just another attempt at 'rescue'? Is this what you did, and are you prepared to following through with it?
It was more effective afterward because I was able to communicate directly with my son instead of the chemical 'him' that he had been for quite some time before. Wilderness was another attempt at rescue -- a final attempt.
I/we are prepared to follow through on making him be responsible for his actions and his personal well-being. It's been 5 months since he got home and there haven't been any reasons to think I would have to kick him out when he turns 18. He has it pretty good here -- he would be the first to say so. But he understands when I say "look dude, this is my house. I can't have cops showing up here, or drug deals going down on the side of the house," and that kind of stuff. Once he moves out, he can do whatever the fuck he wants in his own place.
So a wilderness is a detox?
What if he does drugs again?
Why do you need all of the full wilderness load of shit to do detox?
There is no internal consistency in what you're saying and in your justifications!
What IS it for, exactly? Nothing? A "wake up call" before you cut him loose? Detox? Both? None? Why all the other nonsense there... that has nothing to do with detox or therapy or helping anyone communicate.
Somehow I fail to understand why you would have to go have him controlled and 'fixed' before you sit on your hands and go "Okay! You're on your own, kid!". It just sort of lacks consistency and rhyme and reason is all.
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YEs- it is a detox from a lot of things. Perhaps when they return home they choose to stay off of whatever they detoxed from- whether it be drugs, a relationship or anger.
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So do they have a nurse on staff and lots of fluids and nutrition while the toxins get out of thier system, or do they go march and get malnourished, under-fed, probably not given enough water, and overexert themselves?
Detox and hiking do not intersect anywhere. Detox is INPATIENT. This is clearly more about instigating stress... withdrawl would only help that.
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I've lost track of your questions, but I think one was about what happened if someone wouldn't or couldn't hike. The answer is that the group had to stop until the kid would hike. This is why others would sometimes carry the gear for a tired hiker. They had to figure out how to get moving again.
My son just told me online that the food was terrible, but you got used to it. He said you got enough food and water.
He said wilderness was not abusive or coercive except for the way he got there. He said the therapy groups were good and nothing like C-brook.
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There is a nurse on staff and a doctor on call all the time. The kid gets a thorough medical exam before going out in the field.
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So if a kid refused to do as told, they stopped. What if he utterly refused to move, how would he be moved?
What do they to do to punish people there who refuse to otherwise do as told, or act out, or verbally lash out, or "Talk back"?
Additionally, why bad food and forced exercise except to create unpleantness.
Finally, what were these groups like. Were they compulsory or forced in any way, like those IMPACT LETTERS were? How did they make them read them anyway...
I'm also still wondering how any of this is equipped or proper for 'detox', which requires SUPPORT for the psysiological and psychologial changes that happens to someone going through that, and needs a lot of rest - not exertion.
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There is a nurse on staff and a doctor on call all the time. The kid gets a thorough medical exam before going out in the field.
So why are they sent there for detox, if the ones that really need detox don't go there, they go to an ACTUAL detox? :-?
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And why would this be more effective 'after' a program than before? Isn't placement in a program just another attempt at 'rescue'? Is this what you did, and are you prepared to following through with it?
It was more effective afterward because I was able to communicate directly with my son instead of the chemical 'him' that he had been for quite some time before. Wilderness was another attempt at rescue -- a final attempt.
I/we are prepared to follow through on making him be responsible for his actions and his personal well-being. It's been 5 months since he got home and there haven't been any reasons to think I would have to kick him out when he turns 18. He has it pretty good here -- he would be the first to say so. But he understands when I say "look dude, this is my house. I can't have cops showing up here, or drug deals going down on the side of the house," and that kind of stuff. Once he moves out, he can do whatever the fuck he wants in his own place.
So a wilderness is a detox?
It can be, and not just from drugs & alcohol, but also from strained relationships and toxic self-perceptions that have become very dysfunctional.
What if he does drugs again?
Who says he hasn't?
Why do you need all of the full wilderness load of shit to do detox?
You don't. He could've detoxed perfectly well in a 30-day inpatient program not too far from home. But I think, and more importantly he thinks he got a lot more out of the "full wilderness load of shit" than he would have gotten from a standard inpatient detox.
Somehow I fail to understand why you would have to go have him controlled and 'fixed' before you sit on your hands and go "Okay! You're on your own, kid!". It just sort of lacks consistency and rhyme and reason is all.
I don't expect you to understand. I'm not sure I fully understand it myself, "it" being the thought processes and rationalizations my wife and I went through at the time. Part of it was the belief that he needed something different, since everything else had been tried and failed, and the fact that he was asking for help and not wanting to continue living the way he had been living. Part of it was the fear that if we left him 'unsupervised' all summer while we were at work, he might not survive. He almost didn't survive the previous summer. And I don't mean that in the program-speak 'insanedeadorinjail' manner, I mean it in the IV tubes/ER/vital signs manner.
If he had just stuck to pot, coke and hallucinogens, like kids of my generation, his summer might have been a lot different.
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Actually, Deb, attacking them on this one doesn't always work- I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and provide a counterexample (http://http://www.aspiro-inc.com/). This wilderness program looks like it's making a very desperate attempt not to be (or appear?) evil.
Interesting. Desperate attempt indeed, just as Lon's latest essay on "Change". http://www.strugglingteens.com/ (http://www.strugglingteens.com/)
The industry is really in defense mode. Aspiro's whole pitch addresses all the complaints that have been voiced here for years. No levels... no tought love....traditional clinical services....no breaking down... There's advertising and there's reality. Won't know if they're really different until a survivor or staff comes along to provide the details.
Did my post come off as an attack? My thoughts, questions, concerns are sincere and genuine.... oh well. I'd sincerely like to know if parents think wilderness skills or bm in an austere environment, is responsible for their kids change. And if they really have to be deprived in order to gain self esteem from the skills they acquire. And why, if this treatment model is so effective, why it's not being written up in journals everywhere?
Have you observed a person detox? If the person is genuinely 'addicted' and detoxing, they require medical observation. Was your kid detoxing in the clinical sense of the word, or was that an exaggeration? How long is the detox period before they are sent to the field?
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Wilderness Therapy as a DETOX can be dangerous, especially for kids addicted to certain drugs like Meth. Parents should beware of sending their children to WT with the hope of getting them off drugs. That's something that needs to be done in a medically controlled enviornment under the supervision of trained medical professionals not guys/gals who wear bandanas tied around their head and call themselves such names as Gentle Feather.
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It can be, and not just from drugs & alcohol, but also from strained relationships and toxic self-perceptions that have become very dysfunctional.
We call that isolation. That is a BAD THING. Also, this is not therapeutic, and it seems to be recursive justification, not a reason to be sent in a wilderness program. Willing removal from stress or a not so willing removal from abuse does not need a wilderness program and someone who was abused needs treatment therapy and support, not a wilderness program!
Who says he hasn't?
Then why even bring up detox or use a wilderness at all? :roll:
You don't. He could've detoxed perfectly well in a 30-day inpatient program not too far from home. But I think, and more importantly he thinks he got a lot more out of the "full wilderness load of shit" than he would have gotten from a standard inpatient detox.
And I have to repeat again why someone who got programmed in the wilderness is almost required to say that? Especially to his own parent while under 18 and the threat of being sent back is very well known to every kid who escaped 'the industry' alive...
I don't expect you to understand. I'm not sure I fully understand it myself, "it" being the thought processes and rationalizations my wife and I went through at the time. Part of it was the belief that he needed something different, since everything else had been tried and failed, and the fact that he was asking for help and not wanting to continue living the way he had been living. Part of it was the fear that if we left him 'unsupervised' all summer while we were at work, he might not survive. He almost didn't survive the previous summer. And I don't mean that in the program-speak 'insanedeadorinjail' manner, I mean it in the IV tubes/ER/vital signs manner.
Well, the DUCK test here says it looks like, waddles like, floats like and quacks like a DUCK... or, rather, bullshit. Duckshit?
BELIEF you need treatment is not REASON, is not a DX, is not JUSTIFICATION, and doesn't work.
Do you reailze how much of that was edcons and programs telling you that, and making you feel that way?
Why was he in intensive care, anyway? And how does wilderness fix that beside keep him away from whatever he did?
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Wilderness Therapy as a DETOX can be dangerous, especially for kids addicted to certain drugs like Meth. Parents should beware of sending their children to WT with the hope of getting them off drugs. That's something that needs to be done in a medically controlled enviornment under the supervision of trained medical professionals not guys/gals who wear bandanas tied around their head and call themselves such names as Gentle Feather.
THANK YOU.
I'm kind of amazed THE OBVIOUS is so hard to come by around such discussions...
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(http://http://stevescars.digitaloutsider.org/captain_obvious.jpg)
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It is commendable charlie that you are not afraid to tell the story of your own mistakes. But i see a big difference between writing a piece for the New York Times or even doing a talk in your local community when you are a fully grown adult who has made a choice and who is telling the story from your own point of view, and being a kid who is forced to face a public shaming. firstl as an adult you can be realtively anon by writing a newspaper column. Secondly if you choose to do a talk in your community, you are likely to have at least some friends around for moral suppoert. You are also likely to at least face some level of admiration and support for your candour. As a kid you are surrounded by people that you just met and may not feel you have anything in common with. the impact letter also only tells the parents side.
i would imagine a more comprible situation would be if you were at an aquaintances cocktail party and only know a few people, and are forced to read something that someone else has written about you which points out all the things you have done that you feel ashamed of.
One question i would like to hear the answer to is why there were no other choices than Wilderness and Carlbrook? This is isnteresting to me because it is an extremely common thing to hear. What was it that made sending your son to the local public school when he was kicked out of boarding school the less extreme option? i am not asking this question to be rude, it is something I am genuinely interested in.
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I wish I had moved the wilderness chunk of this to a thread of its own, since it really has very little to do with Carlbrook, but oh well.
Some very good points were raised, and in the usual manner on Fornits (or anywhere else) we didn't really resolve anything, but the exchange of ideas, opinions and info is valuable.
Looking back on it, it's kind of weird to read what I wrote earlier today in what I would call my "ST persona" vs. some of the anon stuff I have posted here over the last 6 months. Even more weird when I recall some of the things I have written to other parents along the lines of "stay away from this industry." In many ways I wish I had never gotten involved and wish my kid had never gotten involved. I wish I hadn't felt compelled to make a radical choice for him. I wish I didn't feel compelled to help other parents get educated and avoid making huge mistakes. But in spite of my support of the whole concept of community-based options, I wish to hell that there truly were some more of those that were viable. We tried everything, and we live in a big city where we have more options than many people. Nothing worked. Things just seemed to go from bad to worse. One local 'legitimate therapeutic situation' even did a lot more harm than good. Maybe it wasn't the therapy or the therapists that were "bad" -- maybe he just wasn't ready to be helped or to help himself at that time.
After learning all I have learned about the horrors of this industry -- after reading Help At Any Cost, and 63days.com and watching the French TBS documentary, and the Montana PBS thing, all I can say is that my son and my family is fucking lucky. He is happy, healthy and safe, and maybe that's just a coincidence.
I am, however, thankful that some degree of regulation has hit this industry -- although much more needs to be done. I am grateful that he got enough calories -- he neither lost nor gained more than a couple pounds in those 7 weeks. I am grateful that he was not over-exerted -- he thought the hiking was easy and no big deal. I am grateful that he got the kinds of things out of it emotionally, psychologically, that I would hope to get myself if I did a similar program myself. Was he abused? Some of you will say "yes" no matter what. He doesn't think so, and I don' think so, and I am a bigger critic of all of this than he is, but we all have to live with it and we have to take from it what we can.
The bottom line is all is good now. The money might have been wasted, or might not.
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Was he abused? Some of you will say "yes" no matter what. He doesn't think so, and I don' think so, and I am a bigger critic of all of this than he is, but we all have to live with it and we have to take from it what we can.
The bottom line is all is good now. The money might have been wasted, or might not.
I am glad your son got something out of his experience with the industry. One idea that often goes around is that if a kid gets enough food and shelter and is not abused then the experience was worthwhile. To me it is that simple. i accept that every place can not be a complete gulag but what i dont accept is the philosophy of tough love. For every kid who was sporty and fit to go in with so did not find the hiking too bad, there is another that is potentially overweight, detoxing from drugs, on some kind of medication or suffering from an eating disorder. Given that the industry is in the business of dealing with troubled kids it is not in it's financial interest to turn these kids away and therefore there is a good chance that many of the kids will be in considerable physical discomfort for much of the time.
I also understand that many good parents might feel at the end of their rope when they send a kid to wilderness or TBS. But what i have argued for a while now is that if the option was not available parents would have to try something else whether they liked it or not. This is what parents in similar circumstances in ecery other part of the world are forced to do. Even if this was just hoping that the kid will one day grow out of the worse, or watching the kid reach 18, make a series of really stupid mistakes and then helping them to pick up the pieces when they mature. statistically American kids are no worse than their foreign peers. To me the latter option is the harder one.
The kind of kids who go to programmes are predominantly middle class at least. Most middle class kids everywhere are more likely to come out of adolescence in one piece because even when it takes some level of sacrifice, their families have the resources to help them. They also are less likely to fall through completely because we are all products of our conditioning. For most of us making peace with this is a part of growing up or growing old. The brave or lucky few who dont may just be the happier ones anyway.
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The bottom line is the industry is 99.9% QUACKERY, composed of rehashed, debunked psycho-bullshit that erhard tried decades ago and got shot down and left by the wayside just like the steady-state theory of cosmology and other nonsense like hysteria and phlogiston :roll:
It still relies on isolation, coersion, control and regression, it still sweeps up all of the bullshit it can't answer for as 'emotional growth', experimental therapy (or experiential!) or tough love, and still has absolutely zero proof it works or does anything good at all.
But yet people get emotionally pushed into putting their own flesh and blood into this, cut off from thier own parents, legal representation and access to advocates, whereas the rest of the Westernized, "enligthened" 1st world doesn't allow this kind of bullshit to occur.
When people wake up and competent administration comes back(oh 2009 how I yearn for thee) all of this will be a very bad memory. Oversight and a media that does not have a set of Bush-derived blinders on would be pretty bitchin', don't you think?
I mean shit, here I am, 22 year old college guy and I've ripped into every program to come my way like a hungry pitbull into a wet bag full of fried bacon. Pretty pathetic :rofl: These guys dont have a leg to stand on and no justification, merely feelings, beliefs, and... well, LGAT-derived nonsense.
Ho hum. If I can make this funny enough I should try to get on the Daily Show. I'll give about 15 shoutouts to fornits.
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OzGirl- He WAS at the local public school (horrific) when all the anger and depression got the better of him (and us). The school was so "beneath him" that he acted out there, cut school, stole our cars and other things....... I'm not going to go into it all here. Please just take my word, that like 70s Punk above, we tried everything. Do you really think we would have sent our son away just because he got kicked out of his school (the third one, by the way)? If you think the "deadorinjail" thing is such a joke, I can show you the pictures of our Explorer lying by the side of the road on it's completely flattened roof, or the logs of the middle of the night calls from police and neighbors. We also had a lot of resources, but like you guys keep saying, if the kid isn't willing, it isn't any good.
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It was The Wall Street Journal- and I was just interviewed- I didn't write a piece.
Sharing your story and your parents' "version" before a group of your peers in the exact same situation may bother some kids, and it might be uncomfortable, but one of the first steps in ANY therapeutic process is owning up to what you did. The kid is free to counter what the parents said (mine did), both to the parents and to the group. My son thought this was a minor inconvenience compared to being hauled out of his life by escorts. I asked him online last night if he thought wilderness was abusive or coercive. He said, "Abusive- only in good ways in terms of the physical demands and restrictions" "Coercive- Are you kidding me? Do you remember how I got there?"
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The problem with "detox" programs is that they usually voluntary and therefore are not "locked down". Our daughter was in desperate need of detox, but the only decent inpatient unit near us was strictly voluntary. And the first time the drugs began calling her name she ran. To a very dangerous area. Once she ran the program would not take her back.
It was such a catch 22.
So for some parent the thought of a wilderness experience means that kids will have to stay put, and detox from drugs. Which then (as most parents believe) will lead to clearer thinking.
We never did wilderness, because we believed that the last thing a child in crisis needs is to be thrown into a rustic environment where creature comforts are removed.
I'm just not sure what effective alternatives there are for kids who are very addicted .... and who lack the wherewithal to want to get off drugs.
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OzGirl- Do you really think we would have sent our son away just because he got kicked out of his school (the third one, by the way)? If you think the "deadorinjail" thing is such a joke, I can show you the pictures of our Explorer lying by the side of the road on it's completely flattened roof, or the logs of the middle of the night calls from police and neighbors. We also had a lot of resources, but like you guys keep saying, if the kid isn't willing, it isn't any good.
it is fair enough that you dont want to share your son's misdeeds in too much detail. i dont think the Dead insane in jail thing is a joke. i am aware that many parents really do think that this is the case. i also accept that theUS has some fairly tough laws for kids so out of the three "In Jail" is not always a totally unrealistic fear. But the fact remains that this industry has grown in spite of a falling youth crime, and pregnancy rate and that kids in the US are not out of step with their foreign peers. So it is not unreasonable to assume that the industry thrives on parents worst fears when it is unlikely that the kid will die or end up insane.
It is also not unreasonalbe to argue that it is in the interests of any of these schools financially to keep kids from doing too well. You said yourself that When you and your son decided that he was ready to move on from Carlbrook he was badly treated. i dont know of any therapist who gives their patient a hard time for ceasing therapy. Yet Carlbrook was not unusual in doing this because it was loosing a cash cow. it is hard not to be cynical toward an industry which profits from the sadness of kids and the despair of their parents.
It is also easy to believe kids when they say that being forced into "therapy" with people they dont necessarily like or trust fucks them up. Particularly when the therapy is frequent and it involves being forced to share with the group and excercises which invlove public shaming, like reading impact letters. In What it Takes to Pull me Through dave marcus mentions that some kids hear songs from their therapudic workshops years later and still cry. he said this as if this was a good thing. i thought it was unhealthy and perverse.
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OzGirl- Carlbrook has a waiting list, so the issue with kids leaving early isn't financial. The principals strongly believe that the program has to be completed for there to be any chance of success. They also find it very disruptive if kids are leaving. They try to keep the peer groups together. I understand this to a certain extent- if one kid leaves, it starts a wave of kids pressuring their parents to take them out.
I also want to mention that we tried (pulled out all stops) to get him into a school at home because he wanted the option of staying home after Carlbrook if he could be at a good enough school. They wouldn't touch him, though, so it was off to boarding school, which was better anyway.
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When people wake up and competent administration comes back(oh 2009 how I yearn for thee) all of this will be a very bad memory. Oversight and a media that does not have a set of Bush-derived blinders on would be pretty bitchin', don't you think?
You can't really believe that..?
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For those of you who read Shouting At The Sky, did you find the program to be abusive?
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Shouting at the Sky: Troubled Teens and the Promise of the Wild
From Kirkus Reviews
This tale of teenagers struggling to remake their lives in the wilds of southern Utah manages to be both deeply lyrical and seriously sappy. Nature writer Ferguson (The Sylvan Path: A Journey Through Americas Forests, 1997) spent several months as a kind of counselor-cum-observer with the Aspen Achievement Academy, a wilderness therapy program whose philosophy blends pioneer self-reliance with a generous helping of New Age blather. The students, plagued by everything from drugs to depression to attention-deficit and eating disorders, are grizzled veterans of countless failed therapeutic schemes. Now they are dumped in a particularly stark stretch of Mormon country, stripped, searched, and outfitted for a two-month, no-frills desert and mountain sojourn. Dividing his time between one group of girls and another of boys, Ferguson charts the participants' emotional and physical evolution, from their early days as ``mice,'' timid beginners who have to count aloud each time they use the bathroom so their counselors can keep track of them, into seasoned adventurers who can fend for themselves and, hopefully, bring some of what they've learned in the wild back home with them. Along the way, Ferguson hangs out with the hipper-than-thou staff and recounts stories of suicide watches, escape attempts , and countless therapy sessions. When he depicts the rigors and the beauty of the landscape, Ferguson's prose approaches poetry, and his stories about kids who can't concentrate long enough to finish a sentence mastering the painstaking art of starting a fire from a bow drill speak volumes about what these programs do best. But the author's thumbnail character sketches read more like allegories of American ailments than the real stories of troubled young people, and his ecstatic embrace of all things mystical and Native American sometimes verges on parody. At its best, this book testifies to nature's ability to heal and inspire. At its worst, it's like being stuck on a long camping trip with Shirley MacLaine. -- Copyright ©1999, Kirkus Associates, LP. All rights reserved.
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The problem with "detox" programs is that they usually voluntary and therefore are not "locked down". Our daughter was in desperate need of detox, but the only decent inpatient unit near us was strictly voluntary. And the first time the drugs began calling her name she ran. To a very dangerous area. Once she ran the program would not take her back.
It was such a catch 22.
So for some parent the thought of a wilderness experience means that kids will have to stay put, and detox from drugs. Which then (as most parents believe) will lead to clearer thinking.
We never did wilderness, because we believed that the last thing a child in crisis needs is to be thrown into a rustic environment where creature comforts are removed.
I'm just not sure what effective alternatives there are for kids who are very addicted .... and who lack the wherewithal to want to get off drugs.
Have you read any of Maia Szalavitz's writings? She discusses how toughlove programs don't work for kids, especially kids suffering from drug addiction, and offers a variety of reasons why. She also provides a good sampling of alternatives and resources that are proven to be the most safe and effective. Wilderness therapy is not on the list, nor any of the private lock down emotional growth schools, bm warehouses, etc. Maia is a former addict and clearly has first hand experience with addiction and the struggles parents face. She also has an excellent reputation as a researcher and has written two books, both highly acclaimed. She is currently at work on her third book. Here's a couple of links:
http://http://www.helpatanycost.com
See Resources Page
Article by Maia called "The trouble with toughlove"
http://[url=http://teenadvocatesusa.org/TroubledTeensIndustry.html]http://teenadvocatesusa.org/TroubledTeensIndustry.html[/url]
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http://http://teenadvocatesusa.org/TroubledTeensIndustry.html
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For those of you who read Shouting At The Sky, did you find the program to be abusive?
I think any program of this style has the potential to be abusive. The staff are all alone with the kids, very little oversight. The kids have no access to a telephone to call emergency services if needed. A kid could be in danger from staff, other kids, or even themselves and nobody would know it until it was too late. Taking someone completely out of their social network and safety net has it's positives, and it's negatives. I will call wilderness programs coercive, and ineffective without hesitation. It sounds to me like parents simply want an "out". They want a place they can send their kid to a place where other people have to deal with the problem child because they don't know what to do, or are tired of trying. I think there are thousands of individuals and business out there who will tell you that can do that, and will be effective and keep your child safe. I think every single one of them is lying. Every parent who utilizes these programs are both taking a shot in the dark that their kid won't be mistreated, and that it won't be a complete waste of time and money. I suppose it's up to the parent at this point in our history to make that decision, it seems to be the norm. A child's life is not their own in our culture until they are at least 18, in some parental cultures even older. When you are fighting any individual over their right to free will there will be conflict. Trying to put them in a box and redefine them, it seems kind of extreme to me. I understand why it is attempted, but don't expect it to be pretty. This type of thing is bound to leave a very bloody trail in it's wake. As we have seen, and everyone who uses programs needs to understand their copability in that progression of violence.
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OzGirl- Carlbrook has a waiting list, so the issue with kids leaving early isn't financial. The principals strongly believe that the program has to be completed for there to be any chance of success. They also find it very disruptive if kids are leaving. They try to keep the peer groups together. I understand this to a certain extent- if one kid leaves, it starts a wave of kids pressuring their parents to take them out.
I also want to mention that we tried (pulled out all stops) to get him into a school at home because he wanted the option of staying home after Carlbrook if he could be at a good enough school. They wouldn't touch him, though, so it was off to boarding school, which was better anyway.
Sometimes kids get a lot out of regular boardings school, particularly if it is one with many exeat weekends and an extremely relaxed policy toward family visits etc. I missed home as a boarder but did not have a terrible time. One thing that strikes me tho whilev we are on normal boarding school, is that in light of the sex abuse scandals which have recently come to light in the Catholic Church both here and in the US, they have been forced to make their schools open shops. This is because they have realised that a clandestine environment where contact with the outside world is limited is the best way to breed abuse. Wilderness programmes and TBs environments are by their nature this way. if someone is supervising your phone calls home or seeing mum's letters, you are not likely to report abuse. This should be considered a major red flag.
The fact that the school felt insecure about a kid and their family deciding that the programme was no longer for them i think illustrates my point. At nomal school if one kid leaves, the others are not likely to all want to jump ship. This is quite telling. The fact that they set up these peer groups to be surrogate families buts undue pressure on a kid and their family to not leave. Does this not strike you as cultic? I would say that there is a big financial incentive for a school to set things up this way.
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I hear what you(parents) are saying, but are you completely deaf to what survivors, experts, and advocates are saying. Why is it that you will accept what unregulated, unqualified, and unproven(disproved in many cases) programs have to say about your kids and what they need. Is it because they make promises that traditional therapy won't? You do realize that anyone, if given complete control over your kids, can get them to say and believe anything? That's why prison, jail, and punitive lock down facilities are not called therapy. Kids don't workout problems in places like this. It takes patience to raise kids, especially teens, and sending them off to private prisons when you're at the end of your rope is hardly a virtue patience.
I was easily "program material" in my teen years, clinical depression, tourette's syndrome, and OCD. I used painkillers, withdrew socially, missed alot of school, and was very unpleasant to be around. But my mom did not just ship me off to some facility, we went to a psychiatrist who gave me meds that made somethings worse. But still she did not just give up and now I'm fine, I still have the same conditions I just grew up. I can tell you with a great degree of certainty that shipping your problem off is at best a cop out and in most cases dangerous. You got lucky(debatable) because your kids are fine(debatable), but your desperate choice is not justified by the success of your children. That poor choice was not sending your kids off, it was sending them off to an industry with not one shred of oversight to own up to their mistakes but not you and yours. I don't want you to grab your head in regret, but I do want you to to read the horror stories and know that they could be your children's stories. I also want you to keep in mind what survivors say about realizing the harm done to them only years and years after being locked up in a program. I would love for you all to understand now the problem with these programs, but I'd much prefer that you take your time and not "fake it till you make it"
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I think one component not touched on here is how many teens are court ordered to programs. Often, juvenile judges will tell parents "either send them to this program or your child will face the juvenile court system IE: incarceration". I know of parents who pondered these two choices and chose a placement believing that it was a far superior choice on several levels.
1. A program does not follow the child in the same manner that a felonious record does. Of course, anyone who has tried to enroll a child in a public school system, or university ... or even apply for a job in retail knows that a program record does indeed follow a child. My daughter quickly learned to "alter" such applications to dis-include her "private school" experience.
2. A program will not expose the child to hard core criminal type juveniles. Of course, we now know that some of these kids are in these places because of their criminal activities.
3. A program does not just incarcerate ... it rehabilitates.
4. If the court has ordered it, it must be in the best interest of my child.
Unless a parent is an anarchist .... they could mistakingly believe that the government really does have the interest of the child at heart.
Too bad it's not true.
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OzGirl- He WAS at the local public school (horrific) when all the anger and depression got the better of him (and us). The school was so "beneath him" that he acted out there, cut school, stole our cars and other things....... I'm not going to go into it all here. Please just take my word, that like 70s Punk above, we tried everything. Do you really think we would have sent our son away just because he got kicked out of his school (the third one, by the way)? If you think the "deadorinjail" thing is such a joke, I can show you the pictures of our Explorer lying by the side of the road on it's completely flattened roof, or the logs of the middle of the night calls from police and neighbors. We also had a lot of resources, but like you guys keep saying, if the kid isn't willing, it isn't any good.
Whats funny is you have still yet to demonstrate that this coersive wilderness program did anything anyway, so you can't argue that it's a valid option when you are out of choices.
You also seem to disregard what actual mental health professionals have had to say on this topic which has been posted repeatedly in this thread.
I was depressed, pissed off and felt school was 'beneath me', so I went to college and I did fine! :roll:
PUBLIK School is a joke, the academics are tertiary compared to running the gauntlet of the other little shits your age and the cynical teachers, plus the county/state criteria for 'achievement' and a million and one multiple choice tests.
Sometimes "what it takes" is to stop controlling and restricting and let the kid grow the hell up already. Sitting on your hands might suck at first, but eventually you'll realize hes not a child in a teenagers body, he's an adult in a teenagers body.
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OzGirl- Carlbrook has a waiting list, so the issue with kids leaving early isn't financial. The principals strongly believe that the program has to be completed for there to be any chance of success.
verbatim benchmark. check this out:
http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=234653#234653
it might help you to understand the differences between what the parents are told, what is actually happening, and why the kids eventually shut up about it.
parents tell a far different story than students.
They also find it very disruptive if kids are leaving.
Jeez. It's the same crap from all these schools. Again, verbatim Benchmark(and practically every other program i have heard of). The pattern really really fits.
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It was The Wall Street Journal- and I was just interviewed- I didn't write a piece.
Sharing your story and your parents' "version" before a group of your peers in the exact same situation may bother some kids, and it might be uncomfortable, but one of the first steps in ANY therapeutic process is owning up to what you did. The kid is free to counter what the parents said (mine did), both to the parents and to the group. My son thought this was a minor inconvenience compared to being hauled out of his life by escorts.
The first thing we've repeatedly said that you've disregarded is they only allow this AFTER they've had the child under their control and manipulation for weeks. They will not say what they don't feel they can say or they should not say, because they're usually not stupid enough to risk being made to start over by that stage!
I do find it good he did admit having his life put on hold by the escorts... hopefully he's gotten back to it by now.
Abusive- only in good ways in terms of the physical demands and restrictions
There is no such thing as 'good abuse'. Physical demands and restrictions are not therapy and don't help a kid 'change for the better' or 'grow'. The only character development is learning to withstand suffering and not complain. That is not 'thriving' or 'growing'.
Or, to be succinct, he learned how to say what they wanted him to say, and believe what they wanted him to believe - or at least act like it.
Coercive- Are you kidding me? Do you remember how I got there?"
:roll: See the pattern here yet? Oh it wasn't coersive, I CHOSE to get here though my actions!
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Truth Searcher- My son's transcript and record clearly reflected his stint at Carlbrook and he was accepted at excellent prep schools and very selective colleges. It didn't hurt him.
Niles- You continue to miss the point that doing nothing was NOT an option. Our son could not remain at home. Our household and family was being destroyed as was our son's future. He had to go somewhere. I think our son is in a little better position than you are to decide what helped him and what didn't.
OK- assume wilderness did nothing for him and neither did Carlbrook. This means he got to sit out a year, read and think, and then move forward with his life the way he wanted. This is a bad thing?
If he comes forward and tells us he was traumatized and abused, I'll be sure to let you know. I am sending him information on the propheets that psy gave me.
Yes, there is a lot of information out there (including on this forum) about abusive programs. I certainly would never have sent me child to a program if there was any evidence of abuse occurring. At the time I chose the programs, there was nothing out there indicating that either Carlbrook or Second Nature would be harmful to my son. What I still don't know is whether Carlbrook truly follows the CEDU model or whether the workshops are changed and "softened". Perhaps the format is different.
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Niles- you are a completely different type of person than my son is.
He subjects himself to abuse all the time and would consider it "good". This is a young man who runs 9 miles up a mountain for fun. If you have ever been on an athletic team, you get the opportunity to do things you don't want to do and push yourself very hard. This is what he meant by "good abuse". I know you can't relate to this, but I can because I am the same way.
He was able to challenge what we had to say and respond his very first week in wilderness. I assure you that he did not "learn what to say". This never happened with our son. I understand how badly you want my son to fit the mold of a "programmed kid", but he just doesn't. You can ask the other Carlbrook kids who post here about that and I promise you they will confirm what I am saying.
You really hurt your case by trying to force everyone into the same slot. It just doesn't work.
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Truth Searcher- My son's transcript and record clearly reflected his stint at Carlbrook and he was accepted at excellent prep schools and very selective colleges. It didn't hurt him.
Niles- You continue to miss the point that doing nothing was NOT an option. Our son could not remain at home. Our household and family was being destroyed as was our son's future. He had to go somewhere. I think our son is in a little better position than you are to decide what helped him and what didn't.
OK- assume wilderness did nothing for him and neither did Carlbrook. This means he got to sit out a year, read and think, and then move forward with his life the way he wanted. This is a bad thing?
Hey! I sent my kid swimming in a river that i didn't know was filled with piranhas and he survived. This is a bad thing?
The results were not bad(debatable, time will tell), however the risk was unacceptable.
If he comes forward and tells us he was traumatized and abused, I'll be sure to let you know.
He might not see it as abuse. Most kids loved propheets / workshops when they got out of them. They only made you feel like shit for the first half (so they could comfort you in the second). If he reads what other kids have said... maybe he'll snap out of it.
Yes, there is a lot of information out there (including on this forum) about abusive programs. I certainly would never have sent me child to a program if there was any evidence of abuse occurring.
Of course not. Nobody would.
At the time I chose the programs, there was nothing out there indicating that either Carlbrook or Second Nature would be harmful to my son.
You make a good argument as to why programs are so risky, even if they have no reports of abuse.
What I still don't know is whether Carlbrook truly follows the CEDU model or whether the workshops are changed and "softened". Perhaps the format is different.
It's the same. trust me. we've talked about. i'm 100% positive on this one. show your kid what i gave you. He'll confirm it.
If anything, CEDU clones "innovate" on older tactics, "improving" on them, finding new "tricks". It gets worse, not better, with every "generation" of program.
When he confirms it.. don't blame yourself. You were ignorant, not malicious. You had his best interests in mind and did what you thought was necessary.
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Niles- You continue to miss the point that doing nothing was NOT an option. Our son could not remain at home. Our household and family was being destroyed as was our son's future. He had to go somewhere. I think our son is in a little better position than you are to decide what helped him and what didn't.
You can't just sacrafice a child "for the household". This isn't a feudal era, its nearly 2007. And 'doing nothing' as far as saying "get a job, grow up, and I'll stop mommying you and let you go out on your own" WAS most definitely an option, just not one a program/Ed-Con would tell you you can take.
IMHO, childhood has been needlessly extended by years and years, and this is only a natural result of that.
Regarding your son's ability to decide what helped him - sure, if he was not put into a coersive behavior mod program... no less than TWICE and taking up at least a year of his life, sure! But, he was, and one of our biggest complaints is that it manipulates and brainwashes people. Naturally if someone is accused of brainwashing, having someone who was supposedly say they weren't brainwashed doesn't really hold much sway, now does it?
OK- assume wilderness did nothing for him and neither did Carlbrook. This means he got to sit out a year, read and think, and then move forward with his life the way he wanted. This is a bad thing?
That alone is not a bad thing. Everything else done to him IS, and the ability that he got to 'sit out read and think' was IN SPITE of that. You also seem to minimize the effects putting a year of someones life out at the stage in life that is late adolesence. That is VERY important to a person's development as an adult and one of the last "good" years of your life before you have to grind away and grow up.
Oh well.
If he comes forward and tells us he was traumatized and abused, I'll be sure to let you know. I am sending him information on the propheets that psy gave me.
The factor of "is it ok to say it was abusive" and "Was it really abusive, becuase I was told this isn't" is still present. A good program-neutral psychologist would probably be much better than I at explaining how this kind of manipulation and influence works, and for that matter, examining what was done to him and how he is now and deciding if he needs deprogramming or not.
It IS good that there is some candid and blunt discussion about LGATs and how they work... have you read that article posted about where psychologists tried to participate in a Lifespring LGAT to learn about how they work? That's pretty informative... so is the "Discovery Seminar exposed" thing on ISAC... written by a psychologist who went through one.
Yes, there is a lot of information out there (including on this forum) about abusive programs. I certainly would never have sent me child to a program if there was any evidence of abuse occurring. At the time I chose the programs, there was nothing out there indicating that either Carlbrook or Second Nature would be harmful to my son. What I still don't know is whether Carlbrook truly follows the CEDU model or whether the workshops are changed and "softened". Perhaps the format is different.
Whats funny is what you described about Carlbrook or Second Nature was most definitely abusive, and you most definitely did send him into an abusive environment, based on what you've said! There were so many apparent red flags its a little mind boggling.
Also, fornits has been here since the late 90s.. when did you send your son off again? Fornits was most likely here by then, but I'm not sure if it was as easy to find via Google as it is now.
Based on what you said it is also not difficult to see how he was manipulated, if not "brainwashed" and most definitely coersed. The spin he puts on things will reflect the program he was in, and he was in programs of various sorts for a LONG, LONG time.
At any rate, a "softened" LGAT is no more acceptable than "softened rape" or "softened confinement" or "softened abuse". Abuse is abuse, if its greater than zero, its still abuse, and there is no threshhold of acceptable abuse!
Furthermore, ALL LGAT's share a lot in common with one another. Certain mind games, specific vocabulary or names might differ, but the general way they are ran and the goal in mind (a mental breakdown, for lack of a better term except "psychologial regression") remian in the same... becuase thats what a LGAT is by definition.
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I understand how badly you want my son to fit the mold of a "programmed kid", but he just doesn't. You can ask the other Carlbrook kids who post here about that and I promise you they will confirm what I am saying.
He was probably not broken i agree. But i don't think he was entirely unaffected. Some abnormal things that happen in program seem normal after a while.
You really hurt your case by trying to force everyone into the same slot. It just doesn't work.
She's right. a better approach would be to provide a similar example to her son five years from now.
A better approach would be to provide her with "kid profile" examples and see which one she thinks her kid fits into.
You're creative. build a better case. Pretend she's a jury and let her come to her own conclusions by implying rather than stating (you can get away with a lot more that way).
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All I said was that he WAS effected by what was done to him, not by how much. As in the effect from the coersion and mind control was greater than zero?
Saying he went through "good abuse" or "it wasn't coersive becuase of how he got there" is evidence enough to me...
But at any rate why not go see a real shrink and bring this evidence? If you can afford programs and are an attourney you can most definitely afford the co-pay chumpchange unless you dont have insurance, in which case you can STILL afford it anyway.
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My son saw a real shrink. Several of them. The one he trusted the most and who he returned to after he got out of Carlbrook agreed with our decision to send him to wilderness. He said we were out of options.
TSW- My son said wilderness was "abusive in a good way". That is what I was responding to. Running up a mountain is voluntary but so is carrying the group's water supply. No one forced him to do it.
Niles- You don't kick a 16 year old out of the house and say "get a job". Also, yes, you do make sacrifices for the household. Other people live there. The terrorizing of the family had to stop.
If my son wants to see a therapist to figure out whether or not he has been abused, he is welcome to do so.
My son said how he got there WAS coercive (the escorts). I agree.
So what? He wasn't going to go on his own.
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My son saw a real shrink. Several of them. The one he trusted the most and who he returned to after he got out of Carlbrook agreed with our decision to send him to wilderness. He said we were out of options.
I'm glad he saw some shrinks, but that still does not minimize the effect of mind control these places do by design on children in them.
TSW- My son said wilderness was "abusive in a good way". That is what I was responding to. Running up a mountain is voluntary but so is carrying the group's water supply. No one forced him to do it.
And certainly the environment he was in had nothing to do with that, right? :roll:
Niles- You don't kick a 16 year old out of the house and say "get a job". Also, yes, you do make sacrifices for the household. Other people live there. The terrorizing of the family had to stop.
You do not sacrafice A CHILD for the household!!! PERIOD. "terrorizing of the family" comes across as a bit of a program-esque comment, not that Im trying to minimize the stress that can be put onto a family if someone acts out or makes people worry for them.
But you know what? Its better to kick out a 16 year old and let him go out and grow up than abuse them, fuck with them, put them back years and years, and THEN kick them out, which is what MOST programs do anyway.
If my son wants to see a therapist to figure out whether or not he has been abused, he is welcome to do so.
I would encourage it, but obviously not coerse it... that would kind of defeat the purpose.
My son said how he got there WAS coercive (the escorts). I agree.
So what? He wasn't going to go on his own.
You still havent proven it did any good and coersion is stil unethical and unnecessary...
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All I said was that he WAS effected by what was done to him, not by how much. As in the effect from the coersion and mind control was greater than zero?
Based on what she told me, i don't think the brainwashing was sucessful. Program brainwashign requires a kd to lose hope of leaving. He had hope of leaving so he never broke.
I do think, however, that he probably got use to certiain abnormalities about the place, thinking the fucked up, was normal. That's different than brainwashing. That's the effects of trauma. That's just learning to tolerate the intolerable.
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I do think, however, that he probably got use to certiain abnormalities about the place, thinking the fucked up, was normal. That's different than brainwashing. That's the effects of trauma. That's just learning to tolerate the intolerable.
Manipulation and an 'adjustment' of his perceptions and thoughts is brainwashing in my book, albeit on a different level... but its the same thing, just not as complete.
At any rate this is ultimately semantic and a result of our language not being so finely tuned to discuss this kind of horrible stuff, isn't it?
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I do think, however, that he probably got use to certiain abnormalities about the place, thinking the fucked up, was normal. That's different than brainwashing. That's the effects of trauma. That's just learning to tolerate the intolerable.
Manipulation and an 'adjustment' of his perceptions and thoughts is brainwashing in my book, albeit on a different level... but its the same thing, just not as complete.
At any rate this is ultimately semantic and a result of our language not being so finely tuned to discuss this kind of horrible stuff, isn't it?
When i say "break", i mean having your whole identity overwritten. Being told you are just a "mask" that you need to take off.... that shit...
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I guess we're wondering if complete brainwashing or manipulation of some thoughts and perceptions compare.
Well, obviously thats a half a dozen of one thing and six of another. ANY of that is wrong, but completely breaking someone is totally horrible - but that can't minimize smaller more 'subtle' adjustments.
And naturally any and all forms of this is completely wrong and should not be tolerated or condoned or excused.
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Niles- Whatdo you suggest parents in our situation do? It is illegal to kick out a 16 year old. Besides that, we would not do it. We would take every step to try to help our son, which is what we did. I doubt he would be doing as well as he is today if we had kicked him out.
My son agrees that he was out of control and could not remain in the household. This is 3 1'/2 years later. He agrees that we had no other options. My husband and I are intelligent, resourceful people. We did our research, we tried everything, and there wasn't one medical or mental health professional that thought for a moment that our son could or should remain at home. I don't know why you think you know so much better about what was the right decision at the time. EVEN IF WILDERNESS DIDN'T HELP HIM, which he believes it did, he was safe, my daughter was safe, our cars and neighbors were safe.
When you can provide me and other parents with an alternative choice, then I might find you credible. All I'm hearing from you, in a million different ways is, "You are a horrible parent because you sent your son to an abusive program and it didn' t help anyway and then you sent him to another abusive program and even though he says he is fine, he really isn't because he was abused."
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Niles- Whatdo you suggest parents in our situation do? It is illegal to kick out a 16 year old. Besides that, we would not do it. We would take every step to try to help our son, which is what we did. I doubt he would be doing as well as he is today if we had kicked him out.
Knowing what you know now... why fuck someone up before they "go out on thier own"? Just let them go out on thier own. Tell him to get a job and decide for himself what he wants to do, and if he does stuff to break the law, call the cops.
Natural consequences. Besides, when you need to grow up, you just do... let them start realizing what it means to provide for yourself to survive and it just happens.
Also, you know what? You have NO idea how he would be doing today had you done that, and you have no way to know, either
My son agrees that he was out of control and could not remain in the household. This is 3 1'/2 years later. He agrees that we had no other options. My husband and I are intelligent, resourceful people. We did our research, we tried everything, and there wasn't one medical or mental health professional that thought for a moment that our son could or should remain at home. I don't know why you think you know so much better about what was the right decision at the time. EVEN IF WILDERNESS DIDN'T HELP HIM, which he believes it did, he was safe, my daughter was safe, our cars and neighbors were safe.
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You, and your daugther, and neighbors were safe, sure, but he was not. I'll let deb RE-POST the health issues with wilderness crap, the deaths from them, and I need not repeat for the nth time in this thread how psychologically unsafe you are in such a place, do I?
When you can provide me and other parents with an alternative choice, then I might find you credible. All I'm hearing from you, in a million different ways is, "You are a horrible parent because you sent your son to an abusive program and it didn' t help anyway and then you sent him to another abusive program and even though he says he is fine, he really isn't because he was abused."
All I hear from you is an excuse to not re-examine what you did because doing so would mean you are in someone's mind, or that because if I don't sugar coat what I say enough and it can be construed as an attack on you, then the issues I bring up somehow aren't relevant anymore, because I'm too mean, even though the relevance of what I say is not dependant on how I say it.
Its not my job to find other options, its not my job to find some easy button for parenting, because there is not one! Im here because abusing people and not helping them is not OK, no matter how much you say "we didn't know what else to do" or "You didn't give me another option for sending him away!".
IT DOES NOT EXIST. The only thing that is easy FOR YOU is most definitely NOT easy for the child in the BM warehouse, and you know that now as much as we do.
Its not my job to lay out clearly what to do, but plenty of people (Deb, Julie, Maia, Ginger, etc) HAVE already, you just dismiss it! Taking your hands the hell off and letting them just grow up, stop sending him here and there, stop forcing, stop MOMMYING and just letting him go learn it the hard way was, is, and will always be an option, regardless of how many fly by night programs spring up and convince people who can afford them that doing so is not an option.
PLENTY of lower and middle class (and upper class people who do not choose to do what you did) families get by just fine, way way more than the minority of people with teenagers with problems who turn to this.
At any rate, I dont want to make you feel like or make it seem like I think you are a bad parent who fucked up, trying to guilt you, because its useless. Making you get all pissed or sad or guilty, successful or not, doesn't do jack about what DOES matter to me - the people being hurt by these places.
I AM saying you made a mistake, I AM saying these places conned you and thousands of other people, I AM saying they are good at it, and I AM saying you probably sent him away way too damn much before the industry got his hands on him, but I'm not saying you are a horrible person or parent. You made mistakes just like everyone else, however you can't hide from the facts that are pretty abundant in this LONG thread becuase you think I'm too mean or think I feel you're... bad, abusive, stupid, or whatever.
Hell, even if I did think that or just said KAREN YOU ARE A BAD PARENT does that change any of the facts? Does that change what these places did to him? Does that change what they did to thousands of people, and are stil doing now?
Does that change how STUPID it is that kids with depression, ADD, ADHD, or just bad social skills, or even abuse/rape victims are getting sent out to live in filth and read iMPACT LETERS around a campfire before spending one of the most important years of their life in a TBS?
NO.
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Niles- you are a completely different type of person than my son is.
He subjects himself to abuse all the time and would consider it "good". This is a young man who runs 9 miles up a mountain for fun. If you have ever been on an athletic team, you get the opportunity to do things you don't want to do and push yourself very hard. This is what he meant by "good abuse". I know you can't relate to this, but I can because I am the same way.
oh come now. Everyone knows that there is a difference between the kind of strenght and endurance testing that goes on with a sporting team which kids sign up for and can quit from at any time and a wilderness programme. For every kid that finds the hiking and ewxercise component of a wilderness programme easy, there is another who has a really difficult time and for who it is porentially physically dangerous. Surely Charlie you dont believe that if your son was this boy he could say -sorry gentlemen this is not for me- i think i am just gonna have a bit of a relax now!!!
As someone who coaches a swimming team for teenagers, i know thhat most coaches have to be pretty strict about how far they push the kids and need to pay close attention to whether they can physically handle things. Girls with eating disorders for example can not compete. When in doubt we are encouraged to err on the side of culling unfit kids. Wilderness programmes by definition take kids who are unwilling. Many do medicals but still take kids with eating disorders and drug problems. Just because your son, an athletic boy did not have a problem with this aspect of wilderness does not stop it from being an ill concieved idea!
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Of all the kids my son was running around with before he went to wilderness, he is the ONLY one who is doing well now.
I guess time will tell whether he was harmed by these programs. It certainly does not appear that way now.
What part of "you can't kick a 16 year old out" don't you understand?
What part of "a parent who loves her/his child does everything to help them. Kicking them out and not 'mommying" is not the answer".
I have two kids. They both appear to be doing really well with their lives. Do they have some issues to work on? Sure. Who doesn't?
We are connected as a family, they are independent and appreciate the educations we have provided. I'm just not sure how you expect me to believe I have caused all this harm. I just don't see it. I'll let you know when I do.
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It never ceases to amaze me how parents when pushed to the point where they've run out of excuses-for-abuse reach for the ace up their sleeve and demand to know what they should have done in the absence of any other options or "resources".
For pete's sake, how about looking in the mirror and realizing YOU are not perfect. Let's start there before picking up the phone to call in the goons to come haul your "imperfect" son or daughter away to some corporate gulag in the woods -- preferably while the neighbors are sleeping and can't witness this act of utter and complete lunacy.
:roll:
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@Charly:
I didn't say you 'caused all this harm'! I said you were conned!
Any damage that would have happened would have been being sent away to boarding schools or programs instead being connected with his family. Children need their parents, programs act like a family is a priviladge to be taken away and earned back, and that support and love can be doled out. Obviously, that is baloney
The cutoff of communication and the isolation alone from a program can be extremely damaging, same for creating a rift, same for making a child think their parents put them there.
What Psy is trying to say is part of a reaction to trauma is thinking you deserve it. Rape victims think they earned it... doesn't mean rape made them fix themselves, now did it? No...
A coping mechanism is just learning to accept what has been done to you, but that does not excuse or condone it or make it work or make it effective.
But yanno what? Sometimes for some people the best thing to do is to just let them go learn things the hard way, and grow up naturally with natural consequences like humanity has for eons and eons, before these jackasses sprung up in the 80s convincing us otherwise.
@Oz Girl:
I will be blunt. Physical conditioning is not abuse, and is not linked in any way. OVER TRAINING is abusive, and FORCED EXERCISE is abuse, but comparing physical conditioning to abuse is like comparing a kiss to a kick in the face.
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It never ceases to amaze me how parents when pushed to the point where they've run out of excuses-for-abuse reach for the ace up their sleeve and demand to know what they should have done in the absence of any other options or "resources".
For pete's sake, how about looking in the mirror and realizing YOU are not perfect. Let's start there before picking up the phone to call in the goons to come haul your "imperfect" son or daughter away to some corporate gulag in the woods -- preferably while the neighbors are sleeping and can't witness this act of utter and complete lunacy.
:roll:
I appreciate the support but you're not helping. Making Karen feel defensive for whatever reason and clam up is not going to help her or anyone else in the long run.
But yeah, it does seem communication ends when someone thinks we're saying "YOURE WRONG" and then go "NO IM NOT" and then run off and never examine how they were conned or what happened to THEIR OWN CHILDREN AND THOUSANDS OF OTHER CHILDREN.
Need I remind EVERYONE here, what is this about?
Thousands of children and teeangers in hell, RIGHT NOW, while we speak, THAT is what this is about, not you, not me, not Karen!
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Niles- you are a completely different type of person than my son is.
He subjects himself to abuse all the time and would consider it "good". This is a young man who runs 9 miles up a mountain for fun. If you have ever been on an athletic team, you get the opportunity to do things you don't want to do and push yourself very hard. This is what he meant by "good abuse". I know you can't relate to this, but I can because I am the same way.
I almost missed this...
Karen, do you have any fucking idea of what I do for a hobby?
Muay Thai Kickboxing and Brazilian Jiujitsu aka "MMA". Their conditioning is a little bit more hardcore... but I will admit I hate running because its so damned boring!
At any rate, don't pull that crap, especially if you don't know what I do! I mean unless youd like to have a #200 lb mans forearm in your neck for a few minutes trying to sweep him in your guard or stand up and trade blows and dodge the shins flying into your thigh...
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I appreciate the support but you're not helping. Making Karen feel defensive for whatever reason and clam up is not going to help her or anyone else in the long run.
But yeah, it does seem communication ends when someone thinks we're saying "YOURE WRONG" and then go "NO IM NOT" and then run off and never examine how they were conned or what happened to THEIR OWN CHILDREN AND THOUSANDS OF OTHER CHILDREN.
Need I remind EVERYONE here, what is this about?
Thousands of children and teeangers in hell, RIGHT NOW, while we speak, THAT is what this is about, not you, not me, not Karen!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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::boohoo::
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Hey you know what, if censoring my opinion was all it took to end the suffering of children in these hellholes, I'd be the first to kiss some deadbeat parent's ass. But that's not realistic. Parents who come here and can't tolerate criticism unless it's sugar coated and handed to them on a silver platter don't impress me much. Hell, that's what ST is for. But since I'm not here to win any posting points, I'll be glad to call it a day on this thread.
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Calling the cops is not a good option to do to your kid. It's ironic to rail against abuse and call in the cops. The juvenile justice system can be just as abusive as private programs. So can the psychiatric adolescent system. So unless you know or experienced these things, don't be reccomneding them so freely. It's like parents who reccomend programs off the cuff.
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Jeez. It's the same crap from all these schools. Again, verbatim Benchmark(and practically every other program i have heard of). The pattern really really fits.
Same MO with all programs. HLA went so far as to initiate a Incentive Plan to improve retention. PG counselors could earn up to $20K if they retained 93% of their PG until graduation. Can we say unethical? Conflict of interest? What if a kid really isn't a 'good fit' or commits an act of violence that should get them kicked out?
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=18202 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=18202)
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People who have been in Jails and programs preferred Jail over programs.
At any rate, natural consequences for actually doing something with representation, instead of an open-ended sentance for emotional growth without any rights at all.
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People who have been in Jails and programs preferred Jail over programs.
At any rate, natural consequences for actually doing something with representation, instead of an open-ended sentance for emotional growth without any rights at all.
I've had the cops called on my by my parents and taken from my house in cuffs to jail. I've also been in a few different programs. To say one is better than the other is stupid. To actually recommend a parent call the cops on their kid? I would never do that! Cops have guns, and they use them. There is nothing 'natural' about dealing with cops, detectives, courts, jails, probation officers, drug tests, curfews, and other beauracratic bullshit. The real answer is people prefer neither, they are both horrible in their own distinct way. ::noway::
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Niles- Whatdo you suggest parents in our situation do? It is illegal to kick out a 16 year old. Besides that, we would not do it. We would take every step to try to help our son, which is what we did. I doubt he would be doing as well as he is today if we had kicked him out.
My son agrees that he was out of control and could not remain in the household. This is 3 1'/2 years later. He agrees that we had no other options. My husband and I are intelligent, resourceful people. We did our research, we tried everything, and there wasn't one medical or mental health professional that thought for a moment that our son could or should remain at home. I don't know why you think you know so much better about what was the right decision at the time. EVEN IF WILDERNESS DIDN'T HELP HIM, which he believes it did, he was safe, my daughter was safe, our cars and neighbors were safe.
When you can provide me and other parents with an alternative choice, then I might find you credible. All I'm hearing from you, in a million different ways is, "You are a horrible parent because you sent your son to an abusive program and it didn' t help anyway and then you sent him to another abusive program and even though he says he is fine, he really isn't because he was abused."
Well you might be hearing that but I don't think many people here believe that. However, from what you told me, i believe he was abused. It doesn't mean he was harmed (at least not apparantly).
Different people go through the same thing and only some suffer problems.
Nobody is trying to say your kid was necessarily harmed permanantly. Some kids just survive it... it doesn't faze them.
In any case, you thought you were doing the right thing, so it's not really your fault regardless.
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I think one component not touched on here is how many teens are court ordered to programs. Often, juvenile judges will tell parents "either send them to this program or your child will face the juvenile court system IE: incarceration". I know of parents who pondered these two choices and chose a placement believing that it was a far superior choice on several levels.
This is a real problem and one of the many complaints in the HLA lawsuit. Parents who were sending their kid there for minor issues were told they didn't accept court-ordered/adjudicated kids, and didn't expect their kid to be housed with seriously distressed kids, some criminal (one left to serve time and returned), some violent. And like any for profit business, the bottom line is always going to take precedent over ethics and integrity.
Many considered HLA to be a primo program, just like Carlbrook. It would be interesting to see how they would stand up to the same scrutiny HLA has been subjected to.
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People who have been in Jails and programs preferred Jail over programs.
At any rate, natural consequences for actually doing something with representation, instead of an open-ended sentance for emotional growth without any rights at all.
I've had the cops called on my by my parents and taken from my house in cuffs to jail. I've also been in a few different programs. To say one is better than the other is stupid. To actually recommend a parent call the cops on their kid? I would never do that! Cops have guns, and they use them. There is nothing 'natural' about dealing with cops, detectives, courts, jails, probation officers, drug tests, curfews, and other beauracratic bullshit. The real answer is people prefer neither, they are both horrible in their own distinct way. ::noway::
Thrown in a program for a year plus, or booked for some nonsense charge?
Between those two choices, I would pick the latter. Obviously I'd say neither, but some people want to have some laid out by-the-numbers "choice" for them to take instead of "be a parent".
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All I said was that he WAS effected by what was done to him, not by how much. As in the effect from the coersion and mind control was greater than zero?
Based on what she told me, i don't think the brainwashing was sucessful. Program brainwashign requires a kd to lose hope of leaving. He had hope of leaving so he never broke.
I do think, however, that he probably got use to certiain abnormalities about the place, thinking the fucked up, was normal. That's different than brainwashing. That's the effects of trauma. That's just learning to tolerate the intolerable.
Based on what's been shared, I have to agree with psy. Given that he was an accomplished athlete, unlike the typical couch potato participant, wilderness was probably perceived as just another physical challenge. The forced marches and physical challenges didn't break him as they are intended to do. Probably the reason he prefered wilderness over TBS.
He strikes me as being a pretty sharp cookie too. That, and the fact that he was older, protected him from alot of the mind fucking. Kids who were younger going in seem to have had a harder time holding onto reality. Kids going in at an older age seemed to fair better in that regard.
Karen's son reminds me of three kids in the Brat Camp series. The older ones. Two guys were resistent to the program and had a history of violence. Because the cameras were rolling, the staff didn't 'push' them. They pretty much skated through. One of the three, female, was partially program before she arrived and bought it hook-line-and-sinker. Planned to go back and work for a program. She was physically fit and ranked on the other kids the whole time about their inadequacies, laziness, and non-compliance. Hell, you'd a thought she was part of the staff.
Programs effect kids differently depending on age, mental stability, and certainly if there is no hope of getting out. You can't live in an evironment that puts you under a microscope 24/7 and sanctions everything you think and say, and not emerge unscathed. Its a matter of degrees.
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You can't live in an evironment that puts you under a microscope 24/7 and sanctions everything you think and say, and not emerge unscathed. Its a matter of degrees.
Yet again deb can put it succintly where I fail to do so. :) Thanks.
And yes, saying that "oh its up to you to be healthy before coming in and see it as a challenge" is not a way to justify forced exercise. Being worn down physically can wear you down mentally as well. If I do any amount of conditioning Im usually very very snappy and grumpy for a while, but testosterone is just one of those things, now isnt it.
:roll: Oh, boy.
I'm glad that her kid came out without getting too hurt, I'm not about to try to wish he was! But the practices of the program themself are inherantly... not good, not effective, not therapeutic, and for MOST people extremely stressful.
But yeah. Conditioning thats voluntary does not compare to abuse or forced exercise ONE iota.
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Thrown in a program for a year plus, or booked for some nonsense charge?
Between those two choices, I would pick the latter. Obviously I'd say neither, but some people want to have some laid out by-the-numbers "choice" for them to take instead of "be a parent".
Once your parents call the cops and press charges its out of their hands. If you steal their car they can have you arrested for grand theft auto and charged. Steal property worth more than five hundred dollars and thats felony grand theft. Have more than a pinch of cocaine in your desk, thats drug posession with the intent to sell. A dozen ecstacy for your weekend parties, add on a felony for each of those. Those nonsense charges add up quickly. Maybe your parents were only trying to scare you, but suddenly you are facing six months in juvenile hall and probation until you turn 18 with weekly drug tests.
Calling the cops on your own kid (unless they are physically beating you or something) is horrible idea. To try use them as a tool of consequence or something is just plain dangerous.
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6 months in juvie and 18 mos probation is still preferrable to a program dude.
Not that I think either of them is a good idea... but hey, you have to give them a clear cut "OPTION", right?
They're both bad options, but if I had to choose among the two...
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From the former Prisoner himself- IM in response to the stuff I sent him from Psy
KSA1: did you get my emails? was that exactly like Carlbrook, or was Carlbrook softer?
das1: well they fed us fine
das1: and i dont remember it being that cold
das1: but other than that its pretty much the same
das1: and the structure of the workshop is all the same
KSA1: did they yell at you and force you to make stuff up?
das1: yeah
das1: they didnt force anyone to make anything up
KSA1: it sounds like it is designed to brainwash you- but I thought you liked the workshops
das1: i dont know they were ok
das1: but its like the girl said
das1: if you are cunning and manipulative enough it doesnt get to you
KSA1: like you :-)
das1: because you can play the system and not have your reality screwed with
das1: everyone at carlbrook was weak
das1: i just sat there and let them yell at me
das1: its not just the workshop thats coercive or designed to brainwash you...its the entire school
das1: the whole structure and constitution of the place is designed carefully so that its much easier to go along with it and "buy in" than it is to resist - internally and externally
das1: some of those kids are so fucked up no therapy will be effective
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6 months in juvie and 18 mos probation is still preferrable to a program dude.
Not that I think either of them is a good idea... but hey, you have to give them a clear cut "OPTION", right?
They're both bad options, but if I had to choose among the two...
No, you are wrong. We are talking in the Carlbrook thread and about Second Nature. These are not Tranquility Bay or Samoa or High Impact. If you asked any kid in the real world whether they want six months in juvie and 18 mos probation, or karen's son's experience, they would laugh in your face. At least that's what I would do.
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6 months in juvie and 18 mos probation is still preferrable to a program dude.
Not that I think either of them is a good idea... but hey, you have to give them a clear cut "OPTION", right?
They're both bad options, but if I had to choose among the two...
No, you are wrong. We are talking in the Carlbrook thread and about Second Nature. These are not Tranquility Bay or Samoa or High Impact. If you asked any kid in the real world whether they want six months in juvie and 18 mos probation, or karen's son's experience, they would laugh in your face. At least that's what I would do.
The OBVIOUS choice is "both suck, fuck you".
I'd rather 6 months of jail than a program for god knows how much longer, that's just me. Not having the entire institution trying to fuck with me 24/7 is better. Besides, I could get mail, phone calls, meet with lawyers, file all the shit I want, go to a library... tons of places have fucking TVs and radios and crap.
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From the former Prisoner himself- IM in response to the stuff I sent him from Psy
KSA1: did you get my emails? was that exactly like Carlbrook, or was Carlbrook softer?
das1: well they fed us fine
das1: and i dont remember it being that cold
das1: but other than that its pretty much the same
das1: and the structure of the workshop is all the same
KSA1: did they yell at you and force you to make stuff up?
das1: yeah
das1: they didnt force anyone to make anything up
KSA1: it sounds like it is designed to brainwash you- but I thought you liked the workshops
das1: i dont know they were ok
das1: but its like the girl said
das1: if you are cunning and manipulative enough it doesnt get to you
KSA1: like you :-)
das1: because you can play the system and not have your reality screwed with
das1: everyone at carlbrook was weak
das1: i just sat there and let them yell at me
das1: its not just the workshop thats coercive or designed to brainwash you...its the entire school
das1: the whole structure and constitution of the place is designed carefully so that its much easier to go along with it and "buy in" than it is to resist - internally and externally
das1: some of those kids are so fucked up no therapy will be effective
Ok, so it was a shitty abusive environment but in spite of that because of his inner strength he saw through it and made it out. Kind of damning to Carlbrook, but your son's got quite the head on his shouders and a strong will.
At any rate, it was all your son growing up, not anything these places did magically, emotionally growthful or otherwise. It was him, and him alone, and it was IN SPITE of them.
I think everyone here is more than proud of your son, though.
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Than what "program"? There are thousands, and they vary in degree of mindfucking. It sounds like you speak of this mythical monolith program that exists, but they are all different.
You have a very romantic version of what juvenile hall is like. If the choice is to be locked in a dirty cage with a bunch of mexican kids getting in fights every other day, or flirting with hot rich girls at a preppy school in the northeast... it's a no brainer. If you think people don't fuck with you 24/7 in jail you got it very wrong.
So, parents, remember, don't be calling the coppers on that kiddo now, ya here!
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You think you flirt with chicks in programs? Which one are we talking about, HLA in its present state? :rofl:
I dont have a romantic version at all, I just fucking asked someone who went through both and listened to them! Program is daily trying to break you down and change you, jail is just serving time. And no you're not locked in your cell all day unless its high security and/or lockdown for whatever reason... this is JUVIE not pelican bay.
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No we are talking about Carlbrook, that's the thread we are in isn't it?
I am not trying to get in an agrument with you. I am stating my opinion based on my own experience, which includes both juvenille hall, and several different programs, a couple of which are discussed on this website.
My original and only point is, you should be careful of the advice you give. Calling the cops on your own child can cost them their life. My dad called the cops when I was high and hallucinating and they pulled their guns on me. It is a VERY dangerous thing to do.
This is my only point. I am anti-program. But I do not offer alternative solutions, because you fall into the same trap programmies do. You are trying to offer simple solutions to very complicated situations.
There IS NO ANSWER.
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Thats what I said!
Just from what I was told at least in jail you have rights and representation. BOTH are bad choices, and there is no easy button. You just gotta tough it out.
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From the former Prisoner himself- IM in response to the stuff I sent him from Psy
I appreciate that you posted that Karen.
CEDU is/was the blueprint for TBSs, and Carlbrook has some deep connections to CEDU, something we tried to explain long ago. You may be one of the fortunate ones, that your son was older and strong willed, may have saved him from PTSD or a lower sense of self worth.
In fact, a program can take a confident 14 year old, secure in who he is and who feels fairly safe in the world, and destroy those strengths. I know, they did this to my son. They didn't build on his strength and leadership qualities, they stripped him bare and left him naked and vulnerable. Due to his upbringing, charisma, and drive; he is slowly coming back. On the surface, he 'looks fine'. As his mother, I see the effects.
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Thanks, Deborah. I guess I thought the Carlbrook program was a lot different. It appears as though it is not. I think they softened it up a little, but the CEDU elements are there. I can see how it could affect a younger kid more severely than an older one- especially an emotionally hardened kid like my son. Perhaps his very flaws served him well. I really do feel that 2N built on my son's strengths and leadership abilities, just as I can see how these things were negatives at Carlbrook. I got mixed messages though (from C-brook). I think one of the heads could really relate to my son- saw a lot of himself in him. Enough to know that strength/resistance could throw a monkey wrench into things. They liked for things to go smoothly, and that wasn't what my son tended to bring to a community.
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I really do feel that 2N built on my son's strengths and leadership abilities
How?
Any strengths he had came from inside because of what was being done to him, not because they helped create them. Magical crucibles that make boys become men are the stuff of movies, literature, and the minds of tough love groupies.
(http://http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4955/pressurecf8.jpg)
Sure, bad things happening can make people grow up and whats inside come out, but it doesnt make them any better, it doesn't create what isn't there... and way more people become crushed by it. Don't confuse coallation with causation.
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Niles- please read more carefully. I was responding to Deb's post about her son's strengths being destroyed by the program. The excellent therapists at 2N used my son's strengths as assets in his therapeutic program and that is why he gained insight and confidence from the program.
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Which makes up for all the other bullshit at 2N, which you yourself told us?
:roll:
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I know a lot about the therapy at 2N, because we were very involved in it. I am not going to spit it all out here, but it was very individualized and it DID build on my son's specific strengths and needs. It was NOT one size fits all and it did not depend on breaking him down.
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But the rest of the wilderness program was there... why? Something for all of the big bear/indian feather/thunderbird/skyfalcon/stinky moose named counselors to do?
You cant put a cherry on top of a turd and just focus on the cherry.
What is this therapy anyway? What did it entail?
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I don't regard anything at 2N as bullshit. My son got something out of all of it. I (and he) have no complaints about 2N. Perhaps others would, but I haven't heard of any. He had good therapists. You might not agree with the woods setting, the food, whatever, but the key was that his therapists were outstanding. We've covered this ground.
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What did they DO.
The only specifics I got out of that was impact letters and the whole CONFRONTATION stuff at the end of it with you present.
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There were no Indian names.
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There were no Indian names.
Ok, whatever.
What did they do for therapy?
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Niles- it was my son's and our family's therapy. Specific assignments were given to my son which had to do with his specific issues and goals. A lot of time was spent on the phone with us. The suggestions and analysis were spot on. The way they approached our son was just right- they knew he was intelligent. He was not talked down to, not belittled.
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What assignments. Could you give examples?
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I'll give you an example, but there is no way you are going to appreciate the effectiveness of this without knowing our son, his history and his temperament more than you do.
He was given an assignment where everytime he regarded himself as an "exception" he was to announce it. In other words, if they were told to go wash off their cups, and he thought to himself, "I don't have to do that right now", he had to announce that he was an exception. It was humorous, but very effective in teaching him how often he saw himself as an exception to everything. (not that this has changed all that much- but the awareness of it was a big breakthrough- i.e. the 110 mph ticket last February :) ) We still use it around here- half joking.
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I'll give you an example, but there is no way you are going to appreciate the effectiveness of this without knowing our son, his history and his temperament more than you do.
Uh, what?
He was given an assignment where everytime he regarded himself as an "exception" he was to announce it. In other words, if they were told to go wash off their cups, and he thought to himself, "I don't have to do that right now", he had to announce that he was an exception. It was humorous, but very effective in teaching him how often he saw himself as an exception to everything. (not that this has changed all that much- but the awareness of it was a big breakthrough- i.e. the 110 mph ticket last February :) ) We still use it around here- half joking.
Woa, BIG RED FLAG here.
Also, now I see why you phrased it like that, because the duck test here says thats not therapy, thats the kind of psycho-mental nonsense (what some call a "mind fuck") we rail against as abusive.
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Well, forgive me for trusting this awesome PhD psychologist over you. If you think this is a bad thing, you are really over the edge.
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Right, whats the psychs' name? Is that person's name on the web page 2N has?
Dr who, exactly?
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He was given an assignment where everytime he regarded himself as an "exception" he was to announce it. In other words, if they were told to go wash off their cups, and he thought to himself, "I don't have to do that right now", he had to announce that he was an exception. It was humorous, but very effective in teaching him how often he saw himself as an exception to everything.
That's not brainwashing niles. nor is it abusive. at least not as she described it. How could they force him to announce things? it was to get him to think about his actions. that was good. not bad (jesus. i can't believe i just said that)
(not that this has changed all that much- but the awareness of it was a big breakthrough- i.e. the 110 mph ticket last February :) ) We still use it around here- half joking.
Hah. i clocked 120
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I've gone over 130, so what. :roll:
Its still forced disclosure! Its still a mindfuck to have to express your thoughts out loud to everyone! No, they can't make him, but what if he didn't say that enough, then what would happen? Held back for not working the program, some kind of punishment, a confrontation?
In the context of how a wilderness program is, I see this as something potentially damaging and not particular therapeutic or relevant to living in the real world.
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I've gone over 130, so what. :roll:
Its still forced disclosure! Its still a mindfuck to have to express your thoughts out loud to everyone! No, they can't make him, but what if he didn't say that enough, then what would happen? Held back for not working the program, some kind of punishment, a confrontation?
Forced disclosure :rofl: go read a propheets thread. howabout a rap. Please.
In the context of how a wilderness program is, I see this as something potentially damaging and not particular therapeutic or relevant to living in the real world.
I doubt.. i really really doubt.. that kid was harmed by that little exercise.
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My point was never if HE SPECIFICALLY was hurt by it, Psy. Not at all.
My point is if forced self-disclosure is ethical, actually therapeutic, merely a way to instigate self-examination, or if it can be potentially abusive and harmful for people.
Whats really funny?
" 4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors".
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html) <- Ho hum.
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My point was never if HE SPECIFICALLY was hurt by it, Psy. Not at all.
My point is if forced self-disclosure is ethical, actually therapeutic, merely a way to instigate self-examination, or if it can be potentially abusive and harmful for people.
Whats really funny?
" 4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors".
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html) <- Ho hum.
Yeah it's a bit creepy i aggree, but it in itself does not sound abusive. If that's the only thing you can find against the program your case is pretty week.
Look. I'm on the fence about this wilderness program. Unless we talk to kids who were actually there, we're never going to know ok?
To be clear, i don't like any programs, wilderness or not. Sure there might be some good programs, but you never know for sure so like Maia Slavitz said, it's still russian roulette and not worth the risk.
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Its not. The impact letters, lack of un-monitored communication, nutrition, hygene, isolation, coersion, and other ethnical issues are already present and have already been addressed. Same for saying they fix ADD, ADHD... blah blah blah... and other things you yourself called red flags.
On your second point, I do agree. I just find it bizarre, fishy, and hardly an example of any kind of psychotherapy I've ever seen, and I'm no stranger to it either.
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Its not. The impact letters, lack of un-monitored communication, nutrition, hygene, isolation, coersion, and other ethnical issues are already present and have already been addressed. Same for saying they fix ADD, ADHD... blah blah blah... and other things you yourself called red flags.
On your second point, I do agree. I just find it bizarre, fishy, and hardly an example of any kind of psychotherapy I've ever seen, and I'm no stranger to it either.
true. those things that were mentioned are red flags. but the thing karen just described is not. a weak argument hurts your case more than no argument at all.
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So forced discosure not being as bad as really horrific things that exist out there being focused on and all the other variables being crowded out of the discussion makes it look not-so-bad?
Thats nice... but all the other bad stuff doesn't go away becuase something that I thought was bad is merely "not that bad".
OK. But yeah, fine, I'll drop it until I get a medical professional's opinion on it.
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Brat Camp is helping to boost enrollment in WT but as long as the cameras are rolling, it's unlikely any kid is going to die from dehydration or hyperthermia, which is the good news. THe bad news is WT is inherently risky and smart parents know it's foolish to play with their child's life. I mean, after all, the idea is to save their kid, not pay to have him killed in a freak accident (tree branch falling on head) or falling into a deep crevice and sustaining fatal head injuries. I still say pitch a tent in your backyard and make the kid live in it for 6 weeks. Reward them big time and use the money you saved on a nice family vacation. :lol:
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The whole isolation/filth/coersion/being in the middle of nowhere for no reason/stress/exhaustion/IMPACT LETTER/confrontational thing matters a little bit too, yanno?
Seeing as any therapy that happens is just therapy, period, and it didn't have to be in the fucking woods.
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This thread is laying the foundation to the eventual closing of all abusive programs.
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Go search for my thread of "how about some damn ANSWERS" trying to get WWASPIES to explain how their program works, what it does, and how it does it...
Only 40 pages until it was totally clear it was bupkus, but hey, that came a long time before this :lol:
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Go search for my thread of "how about some damn ANSWERS" trying to get WWASPIES to explain how their program works, what it does, and how it does it...
Only 40 pages until it was totally clear it was bupkus, but hey, that came a long time before this :lol:
Could of told ya that in one sentence. 40 pages? I think you just proved TSW's point.
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I engaged programmies and dealt with their feints, parries, spin-doctoring and bullshit until they gave up.
And it helped Perrigaud come around... it wasn't totally useless!
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I printed this thread on tissue paper so I can wipe my ass with your posts TSW.
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Fornit's all natural anti constipation cure!
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Thanks, Deborah. I guess I thought the Carlbrook program was a lot different. It appears as though it is not. I think they softened it up a little, but the CEDU elements are there.
Yes, just as HLA did. I think this was a goal of the programs that sprouted in the east and north. There seemed to be an effort to present them more as 'schools with structure' with an 'emotional growth curriculm' than programs, set themselves apart from the lower end programs, and charge a heftier price. Appealing to a different socieo-economic sector. Research Brace and Houghton and others around that time. Fact is, they can't even appear to be 'effective' without the austere CEDU methods, first and foremost, severing contact between parent and child.
I can see how it could affect a younger kid more severely than an older one- especially an emotionally hardened kid like my son. Perhaps his very flaws served him well.
Indeed. That and his age. My son was so confused (at 14) the first 6 months, he didn't know which way was up. There was no pleasing these people. Rules weren't clear and change to suit their whims. He was punished for unproven accusations, and on and on. Talk about a recipe perfect for destroying trust. It couldn't get much better. This was about breaking him, and it wasn't really 'effective' until HLA provided perjured testimony to keep him there. He seemed to hold on well, as psy was commenting on, until the judge ruled he'd stay.
I really do feel that 2N built on my son's strengths and leadership abilities, just as I can see how these things were negatives at Carlbrook.
Programs don't teach leadership, it's the antithesis of their goal. My son was a leader before program. He had a fine counselor while incarcerated in their wilderness program, the only decent person associated with either facility, that raved about his level of maturity and leadership qualities. Appreciated the parenting job I'd done and asked why the hell he was there. He prefered their wilderness program and would have gladly done his two year sentence there, in spite of the abuse he endured from the ex military staff, because of this one lone counselor who had her shit together. One person who was real and treated him with genuine respect. It very possible that you too were fortunate to have a good therapist at 2N. But, given the other unnecessary torture associated with wilderness, I have to go with Niles comment about putting a cherry on top of a turd. roflao. That was too good Niles!! One good therapist, does not a good program make.
Further, I know a bit about your personality, as did the program, I can assure you. Demanding parents get better treatment. I would bet money that you were on top of them demanding what you wanted. They obliged. I'd like to hear from some of the kids from there and staff. There are just too many red flags, same MO, same lingo; just like with Carlbrook/CEDU.
Given the high turnover in programs, it's hit or miss on staff, but the majority are going to be fresh out of school and trained in the program (CEDU) methods.
Enough to know that strength/resistance could throw a monkey wrench into things. They liked for things to go smoothly, and that wasn't what my son tended to bring to a community.
Ya know, what these angry kids need is Comedy Camp, not wilderness torture or Mind Fuck Warehouses. Too tired to go into my thinking on that, but maybe you'll get the drift. Just too say, the air in these places is way to serious and dire.
My thoughts now turn to the thousands of parents who are not aware of the methods and who haven't had the discussion with their kids. I am all about informed consent. Programs should be up front, by force if necessary, about their methods. Parents aren't going to read about the fine details of the Marathon Workshops in the parent manual. They aren't going to read that their daughter may be required to re-enact her rape as the 'victim'. They aren't going to be given a demographics sheet listing all the attempted suicides, assaults, inappropriate sexual relationships between staff and students, and on and on.
We need accurate stats on the industry. Until then, rampant talking out in group. That's what we've got. I appreciate you staying with the dialogue, although, I'm sure we'll continue to agree to disagree on many things.
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Deb, I want your input on this:
He was given an assignment where everytime he regarded himself as an "exception" he was to announce it. In other words, if they were told to go wash off their cups, and he thought to himself, "I don't have to do that right now", he had to announce that he was an exception. It was humorous, but very effective in teaching him how often he saw himself as an exception to everything.
Do you find that to be actual therapy, just bullshit, potentially abusive but not to him, or an outright attempt at breaking someone down?
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Is a dunce cap abusive?
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Is a dunce cap abusive?
yes. and don't ask me while i'm still up... goddamned insomnia.
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hey, a few people would LOVE THAT.
Remember, its what you make of it!
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Deb, I want your input on this:
He was given an assignment where everytime he regarded himself as an "exception" he was to announce it. In other words, if they were told to go wash off their cups, and he thought to himself, "I don't have to do that right now", he had to announce that he was an exception. It was humorous, but very effective in teaching him how often he saw himself as an exception to everything.
Do you find that to be actual therapy, just bullshit, potentially abusive but not to him, or an outright attempt at breaking someone down?
I think it was a bad example. They "told him" to go wash his cup. He had sense enough to know when his cup needed washing and didn't really need to be told. One of those lame-ass contrived rules, jump when ordered. I figure his opposition to this had more to do with righteous indignation than feeling 'exceptional'. No one, particularly strong willed people, like to be ordered around, or have their intelligence insulted. Natural consequences would be that he not wash the cup and have to scrape dried-on oatmeal off before he ate his next meal. Or eat from a dirty cup. The problem with programs and many parents, they aren't happy with 'natural' consequences, they're not harsh enough and they don't get the pleasure of punishing their subject.
Anyway, if this is how it was used, they were conditioning him to bark on command, and if he didn't then he must feel 'exceptional'. I feel very certain that he didn't make any agreement with the program or his peers, to wash his cup when everyone else did, or when ordered to do so, so where does 'exceptional' enter the picture? Now, if he were home and it was time to divy up chores and he refused to make a contribution to the household... this might be an accurate example of feeling 'exceptional'. His refusal to wash his cup had no impact on anyone other than himself.
No, I don't think the exercise is inherently abusive. Depends on how it's done and if the person is a willing participant. It could be useful and could be considered 'therapeutic' IF the person so desires to become more aware of something about themselves, and decides to verbalize everytime s/he is aware of doing it. Again, a potentially useful exercise bastardized by the program. Another potentially therapeutic tool lost to BM.
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This is why I didn't want to discuss specifics of the therapy. There is just too much background that goes into it. My son was a willing participant in this exercise- I think he might have even helped design it. They were told generally to "clean up, wash their cups and get ready to go." It is a SMALL thing, but the neat thing about that environment was that they got to see examples of smaller things instead of being "entitled" to not obey laws or school rules. I don't want to debate it here, but my son actually enjoyed it and found it interesting to see how the immediate thing that went through his head was always, "except for me!" There was a lot of individual therapy and discussion that led up to this particular exercise.
TSW- I won't bother responding except to say that since I registered my login here I have not posted anonymously, so please don't try to set me up.
Deborah- I really value your input and am glad to learn more about your son's experience. I can't imagine the devastation of the judge's ruling and the complete loss of hope. We all bring a lot of background and individual experiences to this discussion, and we will never agree on a lot of this, but I, for one, am open to learning and have never been unwilling to change my mind and admit that I was wrong.
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Just keep in mind that without specifics you saying how good the therapy is rings very empty here!
Nevertheless, that therapist was a cherry on the wilderness turd, so to speak. I'm not about to be unhappy that your son got help he needed, but the turd didn't make the therapist work any better... the therapist worked!
And cherries are pretty nice, granted theres no crap on them anyway.
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TSW wrote: "Yo! Fornit Brothers and Sisters... If this person response lay off him or her. I would like to hear what the person has to say in a constructive flame free environment. A good dialogue is healthy for creating new points of view on both sides of the issues."
This is what you asked for some time ago. This is what I am trying to do. If I were attention seeking, it certainly would not be for the kind of attention I have tended to get on this thread. I'm sorry you can't accept my willingness to discuss these programs and hear all viewpoints. No one is making you participate in the thread.
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This is why I didn't want to discuss specifics of the therapy. There is just too much background that goes into it. My son was a willing participant in this exercise- I think he might have even helped design it. They were told generally to "clean up, wash their cups and get ready to go." It is a SMALL thing, but the neat thing about that environment was that they got to see examples of smaller things instead of being "entitled" to not obey laws or school rules. I don't want to debate it here, but my son actually enjoyed it and found it interesting to see how the immediate thing that went through his head was always, "except for me!" There was a lot of individual therapy and discussion that led up to this particular exercise.
It's not necessary to discuss your son specifically. We can discuss this hypothetically. But, since the so-called 'therapy' is the heart and soul of programs, parents should know what it entails.
Nothing wrong with pointing out when you think someone is acting "entitled", or them agreeing to notice/verbalize (cop to) when they are. I think it works better in real world situations, not a contrived environment with senseless rules designed to make a point, too often unrelated. Like ripping apart a kids bed and making them redo it because there's one tiny wrinkle. Too extreme, unless you intend to condition the person to be an anal perfectionist and have unrealistic expectations of self and others.
If your son was a willing participant, fine. I think this example was a missed opportunity to allow him to learn from the 'natural' consequences of not washing his cup, which had no impact on anyone other than himself, and a misapplication of the "entitlement exercise".
What is "entitlement" but the belief that one doesn't have to contribute, someone else will pick up their slack. (Reminds me of the mom who told me her 16 yr old daughter didn't flush the toilet after use! :rofl:) They don't get to that place by themselves, someone has contributed to their 'disability'.
Just like with Brat Camp. Kid didn't build a fire, he had to eat uncooked oats, rice, lentils. That crosses the line for me. Don't want hot food, fine. But the only other option shouldn't be to have to eat food that is intended to be, and better digested, cooked. Inadequate calories and forced marches to get to the next water cache in 100* temps, too extreme and dangerous. Forcing a 14 yr old to sleep alone in the desert alone, who is not psychologically prepared for that experience, and not a willing participant, is abusive.
Kids need to understand the rationale behind rules, and ideally participate in the creation of the rules (household), if the object is to teach the value of social rules. At that point, they're not 'rules' but genunine 'agreements'- one of things my son resented about program- rules created by program were refered to as 'agreements'. Most kids in program are too old for this kind of 'manipulation'. BM works on young kids and animals for a reason. Unrealistic rules and consequences are an insult to their intelligence and more times than not, adds fuel to the fire.
For this industry to ever move into the realm of 'ethical treatment' the methods have to be analyzed and pass scrutiny. This is the whole "do the means justify the end" arguement.
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Like you Deb i take issue with the take a lot of programmes seem to have on "natural consequences" and entitlement.
It also seems that entitlement is not a hard thing to overcome. if a parent feels that their kid has too much stuff they can just reel things in a little. But a lot of programmes seem to take this mentality beyond the bounds of reason. it seems reasonable to me that If a kid smashes their car due to drink driving or deliberately speeding that the parent would sell it and deal with the huge tantrum that the kid might have. It does not seem reasonable that for not finishing the programme a school will tell a kid that they are a failure and discourage the parents from continuing to support the kid.
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Calling the cops is not a good option to do to your kid. It's ironic to rail against abuse and call in the cops. The juvenile justice system can be just as abusive as private programs. So can the psychiatric adolescent system. So unless you know or experienced these things, don't be reccomneding them so freely. It's like parents who reccomend programs off the cuff.
I have never had a positive experience with cops and the justice system, either involving myself or my son. There were times when things were really out of control with him that my wife would say, "why don't we just call the cops?" and I would say "are you fucking kidding me?!!! How is that going to help anything?"
I hate to admit it, but one thought that was a factor in our decision to send him to wilderness was that it would look good to the juvenile court and his probation officer, and that he might get off probation early -- before he failed a court-mandated drug test or some other probation rule and got deeper into the juvenile justice system. It worked. He got off early, and part of it was the perception that his parents "really did something about him." It sucks, I know, and it was definitely not the major factor in our decision, but it was a factor nonetheless.
I also don't mind admitting that I bought him detox kits when I knew he needed them or else he wouldn't pass the pee test.
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Back to Carlbrook- and regarding consequences. One thing I really disagreed with was not allowing the kid to go to school as "punishment". I understand the concept of taking away something important to the kid if there has been a rule violation of significance, but withholding education crossed the line, in my opinion. They knew my son cared about his schoolwork and his grades, and one whole quarter got messed up for him because he was kept out of class and then not allowed to take his finals until 7 weeks later (after wilderness). He had missed all the review and forgotten a lot of the material by then. The teachers were supposed to figure out a way to average his grades, but the academic head (Bender) was so incompetent the teachers had no idea what they were supposed to do. Parents were not allowed to deal directly with the teachers- we weren't even given their email addresses (although some of them violated this rule to contact me). I sent the forms to the school about 3 times that the teachers needed to fill out as recs for the next schools for my son, and the forms kept "getting lost" and the teachers never got them. We were months late getting that done.
Entitlement and being the "exception" are certainly learned concepts. They are learned from the parents AND from living in an affluent community and attending schools with other entitled kids. This was certainly one of my great failings as a parent, because I treated myself as an "exception" throughout my life and picked and chose what rules and moral codes applied to me. It's an easy thing to fall into and a harder thing to change.
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You mentioned earlier that not all of the teachers at Carlbrook were completely on board with thhe "therapeudic" side of things. What did they make of this?
Were there other parents that you came across who also had an issue with this policy?
Oz Girl
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I agree Karen, denying him access to his education is not an acceptable 'consequence.' That's ridiculous.
As for the "natural consequences" of wilderness, I felt like my son's program used them appropriately. There was nothing contrived or done just for 'make work' sake. If a kid didn't want to contribute in some way to the cooking fire, he/she was free to eat uncooked rice. Their choice -- work for hot food, or eat cold food. Nobody is going to give a shit either way. That doesn't mean the kids who never mastered the bow-drill always ate cold uncooked food. They just had to choose to actively contribute to something that benefited the group meal. Or not.
Not putting up your shelter before a rainstorm was another obvious one. Nobody gives a shit if you want to get soaking wet. If you're too lazy or stubborn to make a small effort to stay out of the rain, that's your business.
The gear was all top notch. In fact, my son still wears the boots when we go out into nowhere, like we did yesterday for a few miles up in the mountains. The sleeping bag is the highest quality one he's ever owned and has been used on 3 camping trips since wilderness. So "natural consequences" did not extend to things like freezing at night or getting blisters from shitty boots that don't fit. Those would be very unnatural, mean-spirited consequences.
Karen earlier said something like her son thought it was "abusive, but in a good way." That's an interesting description that I think my son would agree with. By the time he was done, he really felt like the sleeping bag was optional (at least in summer) and his biggest annoyance was that the hikes were often at a slower pace than he preferred -- due to the pace of the slowest person.
The food sucked, but he feels he got all he needed. Too bad there weren't his favorite treats in each re-supply, or a nice T-bone steak, but there was a lot more than just oats, lentils and rice. So no, forced starvation was not one of the "natural consequences." Since he was already into health food, I think he adjusted to the diet a lot better than a kid who never ate anything but junk food.
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70sPunk- it sounds like our boys caught on to the challenge of wilderness. I really think that is one reason my son wanted to go back in January- he felt his summer experience was a little "soft".
I didn't get to talk to many parents whose kids were kept from attending school. One boy wrote me through this forum who had that consequence and said he and his parents were angry about it. My son cared about his academics more than a lot of the kids- especially since he was applying to schools with very selective admissions policies. Being back in wilderness for 7 weeks when it was supposed to be 3 also messed up the academics, but doing the second junior year took care of all that (at the next school).
I think there was some friction between the academic faculty and the therapeutic arm of the school, which is not surprising. I didn't know this until fairly late in the game, though. It is a tough situation for a teacher. First of all, it is year round teaching. Secondly, you can't give a lot of homework because it will interfere with the therapy, groups etc. Thirdly, you are teaching kids with different educational backgrounds and varying levels of interest/aptitude. Also, these schools are not located in thrilling places. Many of the teachers move on after a year or two. My son got quite close to a couple of his academic teachers, and this was sort of a lifeline for him. He had several teachers that were quite good- and he is a tough customer since he is used to a high level of faculty. Several were terrible. He made up for a lot of it by reading everything he could get his hands on. He would send me lists of books he wanted me to send. These were usually given to him. He got put on "bans" from books at one point, because he was reading all the time and refusing to talk and socialize. I think socializing meant having those meetings they were supposed to schedule with each other to talk about their progress/issues. He was OK with some of that, but would rather read.
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Well natural consequences may be good and well but it depends on the folks in charge. Many deaths at programs come from staff dismissing medical problems as "manipulation" or "attention seeking", and apparently even when doctors are present this can still happen
Ian August (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/archives.asp#skyline)
Michelle Sutton (http://http://healthresources.caremark.com/topic/sutton)
Lakeisha Brown (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/lakeishabrown/lakeisha-brown.06.15.05.html)
The last one is about a facility operated by the state government they had doctors and everything, including the usual "you're manipulating" kind of attitude.
But yeah, natural consequences in an unnatural setting can be risky. It all depends on how staff interpret a situation.
@Charly - What are "bans"? Also your son "mentioned that the program was "abusive in a good way" - meaning physically rigorous- Now from your description he seemed to be athletic at the time. I'm curious did they give a physical or some kind of test to determine if a child is health enough to participate in the program? @Punk - same question......
Sorry I keep adding stuff - Do you folks know what the wilderness programs claimed to treat(not fix) Like did they accept kids with mental health issues(clinical depression, Tourette's Syndrome, Bi-polar, ADD/ADHD, OCD, ya know real mental health issues........ If so what about the program did they say, or imply, would help in treating these conditions.....
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They did a physical at the base facility before the kids were sent into the field. Also, if I remember correctly, we had to provide a great deal of information (20 pages or so) ahead of time.
"Bans" meant you weren't allowed to speak to a certain person or group of people. You could also be on "bans" from an activity-like reading. If someone felt two people were spending too much time together- usually a boy and a girl- they might be put on "bans" with each other. You had to completely ignore that person- not even hold a door for them. At one point my son was on bans with all females except the most senior students at the school. There was a female version of my son there who was on bans with all the boys.
I am not sure what all 2N would accept in terms of conditions such as clinical depression etc. I would have to look at the website. I do know several of the kids in my son's group had severe ADD (which made my not particularly patient son crazy).
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Well natural consequences may be good and well but it depends on the folks in charge. Many deaths at programs come from staff dismissing medical problems as "manipulation" or "attention seeking", and apparently even when doctors are present this can still happen
Ian August (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/archives.asp#skyline)
Michelle Sutton (http://http://healthresources.caremark.com/topic/sutton)
Lakeisha Brown (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/lakeishabrown/lakeisha-brown.06.15.05.html)
The last one is about a facility operated by the state government they had doctors and everything, including the usual "you're manipulating" kind of attitude.
But yeah, natural consequences in an unnatural setting can be risky. It all depends on how staff interpret a situation.
@Charly - What are "bans"? Also your son "mentioned that the program was "abusive in a good way" - meaning physically rigorous- Now from your description he seemed to be athletic at the time. I'm curious did they give a physical or some kind of test to determine if a child is health enough to participate in the program? @Punk - same question......
Sorry I keep adding stuff - Do you folks know what the wilderness programs claimed to treat(not fix) Like did they accept kids with mental health issues(clinical depression, Tourette's Syndrome, Bi-polar, ADD/ADHD, OCD, ya know real mental health issues........ If so what about the program did they say, or imply, would help in treating these conditions.....
You forgot Aaron Bacon, who was from my neck of the woods. You also don't necessarily understand or agree that a lot has changed since the days of Challenger and uncaring assholes like Steve Cartisano. You can agree or disagree with the "therapy" in "wilderness therapy" but this is way different from a tough-love bootcamp.
You are right that it depends on the people in charge. Interesting you should mention medical problems, since my son had one in his 2nd week. He was hauled out ASAP and taken to the ER at a real hospital. No small task considering how far he was from town. It turned out to be no big deal, but they treated it like a first-class emergency. Maybe they really cared, maybe they were just trying to avoid lawsuits or whatever. Either way, they definitely took care of it. Funny thing is my son had the option of staying indoors for a couple nights and eating food that was more "normal" but he refused and wanted to get back out in the field with his group right away. Some of you might say he was already brainwashed at that point. He says he was highly motivated to "make this work" or get everything out of it that he could.
My son's WC emphasizes substance abuse treatment, and the 12 steps are part of what they do. That's what he was there for and nothing else.
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Were you concerned about the reading bans? It does not seem to make sense to me that any school would ban or limit such an activity. Particularly if a kid is there for misbehaving. Reading is an extremely wholesome and passive thing. i would sooner my kid read 4 books than spending that amount of time being forced to talk about his "issues" with other kids if he didnt want to.
Given that the goal is to improve negative behavour, what did the school say the benefit of such an anti intellectual stance was?
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Sorry forgot to login. Above poster was me
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A lot has changed since the days of
No it hasn't. Nothing's changed the fuck at all. And your constant attempts to tell advocates that they're fighting something that's gone is complete bullshit, no matter how many times you repeat it.
You don't even have a son, do you?
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You don't even have a son, do you?
Yes; an adopted muldoon. :rofl:
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I guess at the time I wasn't upset by it and I do understand what they were trying to do. He was totally withdrawing from the community and sort of thumbing his nose at the whole thing. He would carry a book everywhere. At the time I wanted him to buy into the program. We can sit here now and disagree with the "bans", but I do understand the point. I think even at a regular school they would have done something to encourage a kid to drop the book once in awhile and engage with the community. It just wouldn't have been done with "bans". He didn't obey it anyway. They took away Atlas Shrugged but he had another copy stashed.
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Milk- he does too have a son, and he is totally correct that the two wilderness programs he and I are familiar with are not boot camps. I agree that there is potential for harm, but the experience 70Punk and I had was that there were lots of safeguards.
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Jesus you're a self-obsessed cunt. Why do we let you post here again?
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Jesus you're a self-obsessed cunt. Why do we let you post here again?
I don't know, maybe because you needed a token muldoon??
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Because some people actually wanted to engage in some discussion and exchange information instead of just being jerks.
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You said it yourself.. Some time ago... Lot of bullshit from you since and alot more bullshit from you before.
So what is it gonna be?
You gonna figure it out today or not?
No one here is gonna hate you for growing a backbone and owing up to the fact that you royally screwed the pooch. Probably get you some respect for being honest with yourself and others.
You're being a serious asshole. Karen has starting to come around talking to the people here on Fornit... Starting to realise the differences we (parnets and kids) have, and you're just pissed she didn't blow up like you wanted her to. Selfish bastard you are. Interested in nothing but petty revenge. You're destroying your own reputation and self image by continuing this crusade of yours against her. You have no compassion. Typical of program staff. You haven't changed a bit inside, you've just changed sides.
Don't bother writing me back. I won't respond. Go start your own website by yourself and talk to yourself. Only by standing united do we have a chance against the programs. They are winning now, and you are helping them by causing division. You've become the person you flamed not so long ago, and even he has learned by now why it is important not to take potential allies for granted. You have no place here but to spread your diseased, cynical pessimism, symptom of a program staffer, rejected and bitter... without purpose not that your enemy is dead.
So tell me why you were really ever here? Did you do it for the kids?
Maybe i've said too much. maybe i've had a few too many tonight (relatives)... But i'm not going to sit here any longer and let you try to fuck up a good thing: somebody willing to listen!!!
do you know how long i've wished for that personally.
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Look, idiots, no one cares, all right? You're on reply one thousand, nine hundred and something-teen now of a totally hopeless argument. No one is going to read this far into it. No one. All the parents decided not to send their kids back on reply 90 or so.
It's bullshit. We know it's bullshit. And all the repeated claims of "my son feels this" and "it was good abuse" and "I understand why" just don't fucking hold water. I imagine that if they were on this forum (assuming either one really exists.. which would make Karen the longest-running troll in history) the tune would be entirely different. Either you're putting words in your kids' mouths after what you've paid people to do to them, or you're just trolls; either way you deserve nothing but a quick, violent death and a state funeral because no one would pay for a real one.
Psy, don't ever bring ST idiots in here again, all right? Didn't I fucking warn you it was a stupid idea? These people are beneath dialogue, almost completely beneath contempt, and not even worthy of me finishing this sent
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Because some people actually wanted to engage in some discussion and exchange information instead of just being jerks.
You want a lollypop? ::boohoo:: ::boohoo:: ::boohoo:: ::bwahaha:: ::bigmouth:: :wave: :rofl:
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Look, idiots, no one cares, all right? You're on reply one thousand, nine hundred and something-teen now of a totally hopeless argument. No one is going to read this far into it. No one. All the parents decided not to send their kids back on reply 90 or so.
It's bullshit. We know it's bullshit. And all the repeated claims of "my son feels this" and "it was good abuse" and "I understand why" just don't fucking hold water. I imagine that if they were on this forum (assuming either one really exists.. which would make Karen the longest-running troll in history) the tune would be entirely different. Either you're putting words in your kids' mouths after what you've paid people to do to them, or you're just trolls; either way you deserve nothing but a quick, violent death and a state funeral because no one would pay for a real one.
Psy, don't ever bring ST idiots in here again, all right? Didn't I fucking warn you it was a stupid idea? These people are beneath dialogue, almost completely beneath contempt, and not even worthy of me finishing this sent
and you're only here for your selfish need for conflict. remember. my only loyalty is to the annihilating programs and don't think I won't post those IM transcripts here. So shut up and fuck off this thread before i damage you permanantly.
Leave this to open dialogue and if you have nothign constructive to say, you selfish prick, LEAVE!
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my only loyalty is to the annihilating programs and don't think I won't post those IM transcripts here. So shut up and fuck off this thread before i damage you permanantly.
Now this I gotta see....
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and you're only here for your selfish need for conflict. remember. my only loyalty is to the annihilating programs and don't think I won't post those IM transcripts here. So shut up and fuck off this thread before i damage you permanantly.
Leave this to open dialogue and if you have nothign constructive to say, you selfish prick, LEAVE!
IM transcripts? What?? You sound a little frustrated with MGDP.
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Because some people actually wanted to engage in some discussion and exchange information instead of just being jerks.
Ignore milk and TSW. Skip past them. Pretend they are spam.
There are some people her who really want to continue a reasonable dialogue.
I haven't slept for 48 hours (insominia, and an early, delayed plane flight, and relatives... wonderful relatives) So i'll probably be back to ask a few questions tomorrow.
Goodnight
PS: some people wonder what i'm like when i'm angry. see two last posts of mine.
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These pro-WT parents had other options they simply can't admit to it because then there would be nothing else to talk about. Why are they even wasting their time here? Far as I can tell, none of them are on the payroll of a WT program nor are their kids currently in a WT program. Is the point to sell other parents on the idea of sending their kids to a WT? Defend a specific WT program against allegations made by other parents (or actual participants)? If so, then I think Fornits might want to consider charging these WT posters by-the-word to compensate for the use of this board as a marketing tool. :lol:
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I can't be hurt by those such as you, Psy. I've had people come after me with much, much worse.
I suppose you're busy making edits to those transcripts now. How good are you at sounding like me, anyway?
You post your version, and I'll post the real ones. :)
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Enjoy the north, even with the relatives. We'll talk to those who want to talk and ignore the temper tantrums.
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Don't pretend you have an opinion of your own, cunt. It doesn't help.
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Enjoy the north, even with the relatives. We'll talk to those who want to talk and ignore the temper tantrums.
I'll be ignoring the muldoons.
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If so, then I think Fornits might want to consider charging these WT posters by-the-word to compensate for the use of this board as a marketing tool.
Now there's an idea!
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If so, then I think Fornits might want to consider charging these WT posters by-the-word to compensate for the use of this board as a marketing tool.
Now there's an idea!
FUCKING BRILLIANT!!!!! :rofl:
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These pro-WT parents had other options they simply can't admit to it because then there would be nothing else to talk about. Why are they even wasting their time here? Far as I can tell, none of them are on the payroll of a WT program nor are their kids currently in a WT program. Is the point to sell other parents on the idea of sending their kids to a WT? Defend a specific WT program against allegations made by other parents (or actual participants)? If so, then I think Fornits might want to consider charging these WT posters by-the-word to compensate for the use of this board as a marketing tool. :lol:
I am not trying to sell anything. Also, I would love to know of other options because that is what I would suggest to other parents. I still haven't been given any alternatives that would have worked for my family's particular situation at the time we sent our son to wilderness.
No one is marketing anything. We are pointing out some of the things we think were positives and listening to the opposing viewpoints.
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Just shut up and put your penis away now, Charles. Playtime is over.
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What is so damaging in those IM transcripts :question:
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You said it yourself.. Some time ago... Lot of bullshit from you since and alot more bullshit from you before.
So what is it gonna be?
You gonna figure it out today or not?
No one here is gonna hate you for growing a backbone and owing up to the fact that you royally screwed the pooch. Probably get you some respect for being honest with yourself and others.
You're being a serious asshole. Karen has starting to come around talking to the people here on Fornit... Starting to realise the differences we (parnets and kids) have, and you're just pissed she didn't blow up like you wanted her to. Selfish bastard you are. Interested in nothing but petty revenge. You're destroying your own reputation and self image by continuing this crusade of yours against her. You have no compassion. Typical of program staff. You haven't changed a bit inside, you've just changed sides.
Don't bother writing me back. I won't respond. Go start your own website by yourself and talk to yourself. Only by standing united do we have a chance against the programs. They are winning now, and you are helping them by causing division. You've become the person you flamed not so long ago, and even he has learned by now why it is important not to take potential allies for granted. You have no place here but to spread your diseased, cynical pessimism, symptom of a program staffer, rejected and bitter... without purpose not that your enemy is dead.
So tell me why you were really ever here? Did you do it for the kids?
Maybe i've said too much. maybe i've had a few too many tonight (relatives)... But i'm not going to sit here any longer and let you try to fuck up a good thing: somebody willing to listen!!!
do you know how long i've wished for that personally.
:P
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Since my point was that this is pointless, I'm leaving the thread. :wave:
I hope Psy really does post those transcripts. It's taking him quite some time so I can't wait to see what he writes. Considering the ridiculous crap I've made him believe, there ought to be some really fun shit in that. I'll even MST it :)
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in the credibility dept i think psy is going to take the cake.. damage control :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim:
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Ignore milk and TSW. Skip past them. Pretend they are spam.
add this to the regular quote rotation. :rofl:
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in the credibility dept i think psy is going to take the cake.. damage control :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim:
I think your mother is going to take the cake in the big black dick dept. :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim: :rofl:
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It won't be long now...Milk will be creating a new user name...How many does this make?
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What's really hilarious is that I have had some interesting and productive dialogues here that included MGDP, TSW and others when I was just "Guest." As a Guest I could be a member of Fornits, but as someone with a real username and with what I have said and done, I'm just another stupid program parent to be ignored or flamed. I have on this forum and ST expressed mostly anti-program sentiments and have advised other parents publicly and privately to stay away from the Troubled Teen industry, and to not send their kid to wilderness and especially to not send their kid to a Therapeutic Boarding School which is neither therapeutic nor much of a school. If I have helped even one parent (and I think it's many more than that) to avoid making a mistake, then I've had a positive impact.
I feel lucky that my son had a positive experience in the wilderness, but I know that many others do not. "Luck" should not be a factor when consider "therapy" or "recovery" options, and my wife and I were foolish and definitely beyond desperate at the time. The fact that I still post here and on ST should be a good indicator that (a) I'm not really "ok" with what we did, (b) I don't want other parents to make uninformed decisions that could really fuck up their kids and (c) I resent the strong pressure that was applied to us to send him to a TBS after wilderness, despite the fact that he did so well in WC (by their assessment, not just mine) and that I felt like 7 weeks was already a pretty long time for him to be away from the real world.
Every time I try to write about wilderness, I find myself using words that appear to defend it, even when just trying to explain what happened and what didn't happen.
I apologize for trying to compare how wilderness therapy today is different from boot camps or abusive death marches like Challenger. To do so only sounds "pro-program" and might encourage some parent to send their kid to wilderness after they catch him smoking his first joint. That would be wrong on many levels and would undo what little bit of good I may have done these last few months.
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It won't be long now...Milk will be creating a new user name...How many does this make?
What was his last one???
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Ignore milk and TSW. Skip past them. Pretend they are spam.
add this to the regular quote rotation. :rofl:
........ :roll: :roll:
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They did a physical at the base facility before the kids were sent into the field. Also, if I remember correctly, we had to provide a great deal of information (20 pages or so) ahead of time.
"Bans" meant you weren't allowed to speak to a certain person or group of people. You could also be on "bans" from an activity-like reading. If someone felt two people were spending too much time together- usually a boy and a girl- they might be put on "bans" with each other. You had to completely ignore that person- not even hold a door for them. At one point my son was on bans with all females except the most senior students at the school. There was a female version of my son there who was on bans with all the boys.
I am not sure what all 2N would accept in terms of conditions such as clinical depression etc. I would have to look at the website. I do know several of the kids in my son's group had severe ADD (which made my not particularly patient son crazy).
:oops: Bans!! I get it now.... I'll checkout their site for the other stuff... Thanks
You forgot Aaron Bacon, who was from my neck of the woods. You also don't necessarily understand or agree that a lot has changed since the days of Challenger and uncaring assholes like Steve Cartisano. You can agree or disagree with the "therapy" in "wilderness therapy" but this is way different from a tough-love bootcamp.
No it's not that different, as I said it depends on the people in charge of the students.. I have no Idea what program your kid went to and my post was not about demonstrating what went on at the program you chose. Also I never said that staff didn't care. Most deaths are a product of a conditioned mentality... that mentality being that any resistance or compliant should be met with "tough-love"... Look at the Anderson case a nurse was present during the beating but did nothing, Tough-love? Yes... Malicious? No
Remember the philosophy is that the kids need a wake up call, not sympathy. The denial of health care is seen as helping not harming in facilities that have been thoroughly conditioned in the "Tough-love" punitive environment. I would say that this "conditioning" exist in varying degrees at every facility. To believe that abuse happens only in programs with sadistic staff would be a gross misunderstanding of the issue. Like I said a few pages back, in punitive programs the line between what is acceptable and what is not can become blurred into a discombobulated state causing well meaning people to do horrible things. I'm not saying this happened in the facility your kid went to, but to say that it affects boot-camps and not wilderness programs is ridiculous.
Let me again state that I don't know what program your child went to and I'm not trying to filter your experience through the many cases of abuse I know about... My last post was simply stating that in unnatural situations natural consequences take on a different meaning dependent on those in charge... If the environment is punitive in nature the possibility of harm is much greater then in a therapeutic setting due to the conditioned mentality of the environment. I do understand however that what I consider to be abuse others may not, so again it depends on the person and their purpose..
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Hey Charly, I found the website and I have some questions...
- Can you explain what these two things are, it's from the "fire stage"
- Accept the personal feedback process
- Prepare Letter of Accountability
For those interested here's the link to Second Nature (http://http://www.snwp.com/index.asp)
@Psy I would like to get your input on the stages, not the concept but the actual specifics of the different stages...
Some of the behaviors they claim to treat I doubt could be helped with any wilderness program, but I'll call them up to see why they think wilderness can help things like depression, add/adhd/, and asperger's.
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I don't know what the personal feedback process is. I'll have to ask my son if he remembers.
The Letter of Accountability is the letter the kid writes to the parents (when they are ready) owning up to what happened and taking responsibility for the things they did. For example, my son had to be accountable for getting kicked out of school- not because the "headmaster is an ass" but because he repeatedly broke rules and broke the terms of his suspension. He apologized for some of our things he deliberately harmed (like my husband's car) and for breaking all of our household rules (which were minimal, I might add). He had to apologize for stealing things from us and others.
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These pro-WT parents had other options they simply can't admit to it because then there would be nothing else to talk about. Why are they even wasting their time here? Far as I can tell, none of them are on the payroll of a WT program nor are their kids currently in a WT program. Is the point to sell other parents on the idea of sending their kids to a WT? Defend a specific WT program against allegations made by other parents (or actual participants)? If so, then I think Fornits might want to consider charging these WT posters by-the-word to compensate for the use of this board as a marketing tool. :lol:
I am not trying to sell anything. Also, I would love to know of other options because that is what I would suggest to other parents. I still haven't been given any alternatives that would have worked for my family's particular situation at the time we sent our son to wilderness.
No one is marketing anything. We are pointing out some of the things we think were positives and listening to the opposing viewpoints.
Thats because there is no alternative, there is no easy button, and you wont be given something that doesn't exist. The "choice" for the PARENT to take as in sending the kid away to some institution or camp that you think must exist... doesn't. There isnt one!
IT DOES NOT EXIST!!!
Stop saying that we're not credible until we give you one, Karen! There is no damned "parenting button" you can go press and fix your kid. The answer is its hard, and its what people have always done until someone mixed old reformatories with erhards bullshit:
Being a parent.
Please dont make us repeat this again!
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BTW, to the WC apologetics:
Why do you think that its ok to make someone eat uncooked rice because they cant or didn't make a campfire? You can say a kid doesnt deserve edible food?
Or the fact that "oh well MY PARTICULAR kid was into health food so it wasn't all that bad..." somehow seems to excuse what is very much going to be stressful if not traumatic to people who are not into health food and running around in the woods.
YOU would most definitely HATE being forced to live without food, water, rest, TV, internet, and hygeine, don't pretend it won't do that to a kid.
Does anyone here have any damned empathy? Sheesh.
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Charly,
Do you think your son wrote the apologies and actually took responsibility for his actions, or just found it easier to comply in the hope al would be forgiven?
i ask because my sons have become really good at spiling out the 'sorry' word without actualy meaning it, in the hope it'll get them off the hook with me
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BTW, to the WC apologetics:
Why do you think that its ok to make someone eat uncooked rice because they cant or didn't make a campfire? You can say a kid doesnt deserve edible food?
Or the fact that "oh well MY PARTICULAR kid was into health food so it wasn't all that bad..." somehow seems to excuse what is very much going to be stressful if not traumatic to people who are not into health food and running around in the woods.
YOU would most definitely HATE being forced to live without food, water, rest, TV, internet, and hygeine, don't pretend it won't do that to a kid.
Does anyone here have any damned empathy? Sheesh.
You're right Niles, nobody deserves to eat uncooked rice just because they can't make a fire, or even because they're unwilling to help in some way (gather wood, etc.). The health food comment was just to say that he didn't think the dietary transition was that bad, even though some other kids did. The whole thing is probably very traumatic to "people who are not into health food and running around in the woods."
I'm not really a WC apologist, even though it might seem that way. But I am really into the "wilderness" in the actual sense of that word. In spite of my obvious fuckup as a parent, I'm really grateful that my son is still into it too. We abused ourselves yesterday climbing a mountain for several hours in the snow. It was "abusive, but in a good way." And he didn't have to come along if he didn't want to, but he did -- which is very different from the coerced wilderness experience he had last summer.
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Well, there is another level to this parenting madness, and that's the parents who bought into forcing their kids to participate in a reality tv show called Brat Camp. IMO, those parents really should have taken the long view and realized allowing their child (and themselves) to be exploited was a stupid, indefensible thing to do.
Sorry, but these kids really were put in a no-win situation. WT is bad enough but this was a set up made to cast WT in a positive light (read boost advertising dollars for the network and future sales for the OBH industry at large).
What did the kids get out of it? A healing? A pardon by their parents for being an (gasp) imperfect child? What does it matter? That's not why the show was created. The show was created to make money. This was a reality WT. Lights, Camera, Action (Ok Kids, start hiking!).
:flame:
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I wonder how the ratings would do if one ot the kids took a knife and cut his own throat out, in front of his parents, the programmies, and the cameras?
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exhausted- Yes, I think he took responsibility for his actions. I saw evidence of that change when he came home. Before everything was always someone else's fault or he was "unlucky" or got screwed. A lot of therapy and reflection happened before he was ready to write the letter.
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Since my point was that this is pointless, I'm leaving the thread. :wave:
Hmmm. I thought you were gone.
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exhausted- Yes, I think he took responsibility for his actions. I saw evidence of that change when he came home. Before everything was always someone else's fault or he was "unlucky" or got screwed. A lot of therapy and reflection happened before he was ready to write the letter.
hmmmm...that's very interesting, as I have one who blames everyone and everything on anyone but himself and his own actions ... no matter what is said, he just cannot see that what happens to him is a direct consequence of his actions, he actually believes what he's saying as well! :o
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One thing about hiking through the Utah desert and mountains and sleeping on the ground, you have a lot of time to figure out what it was that got you there. My son was shocked that we would do something that extreme to him. It really opened his eyes about just how bad things had gotten. This led to a lot of journaling, a lot of thinking, a lot of finally listening to a therapist he really respected. This smart kid finally got it that it actually wasn't all someone else's fault. It did take some time, though. The first letter we got began, "I am ridden with disgust at what you have done to me."
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exhausted- Yes, I think he took responsibility for his actions. I saw evidence of that change when he came home. Before everything was always someone else's fault or he was "unlucky" or got screwed. A lot of therapy and reflection happened before he was ready to write the letter.
hmmmm...that's very interesting, as I have one who blames everyone and everything on anyone but himself and his own actions ... no matter what is said, he just cannot see that what happens to him is a direct consequence of his actions, he actually believes what he's saying as well! :o
Are you thinking about sending your kid to a program? :( ::boohoo::
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Nice breakdown..... commentaries?
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The ends justifies the means... accountability... accomplishments.... proud parents... blah.
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I'm not really a WC apologist, even though it might seem that way. But I am really into the "wilderness" in the actual sense of that word. In spite of my obvious fuckup as a parent, I'm really grateful that my son is still into it too. We abused ourselves yesterday climbing a mountain for several hours in the snow. It was "abusive, but in a good way." And he didn't have to come along if he didn't want to, but he did -- which is very different from the coerced wilderness experience he had last summer.
It takes a big man to admit they fuck up, when they don't have to, especially becuase people find that thier parenting is sacred and above criticism.
I myself would like to willingly go out for a set duration, fully equipped, and go kill things in the woods, eat game, shoot guns and bows and be a jackass in a big orange hat. Hell, hiking and sight-seeing would be fun, complete with steve irwin impressions!
I would NOT want to go out with no control, no idea how long I will be there, with shitty provisions, strenuous hiking, yelling "EXCEPTION!", reading impact letters, eating really really craptacular food and trying to do therapy in some dirt. They have offices for a reason.
But again we get into the cherry on a turd principle. You might like the wilderness, your kid might like the wilderness and 'health food' (which white rice ain't... glycemic load index of a chocolate fucking cake, puhleeze :roll: ) but considering its very APPARENTLY going to be something that will stress and wear down someone used to far different conditions, and considering MOST kids are definitely going to be a fish out of water in such a situation, what it is there for is very APPARENT.
Note how I say APPARENT instead of another word... ;)
Also, PHYSICAL EXERTION AND/OR CONDITIONING IS NOT ABUSE! Do not say you 'abused yourself in a good way', there is no such thing at all. This comes accross (though it could just be semantic in your case) as 'loaded language' and a bit of a catch-22 trying to justify abusive practices. Or, another ploy to say means are justified by ends.
At any rate, the "good abuse" I got doing Jiujitsu or Kick boxing kind of makes going up that mountain look pretty pussyrific. And dont even get me started at how homoerotic the "good abuse" of Jiu Jitsu can look... :rofl:
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Nice breakdown..... commentaries?
This is EXACTLY why S.T. won't let anyone talk openly about a program. The total lack of proof and the ease with which they're debunked or "ripped to shreds" as I was told I do to programs in my DAMN ANSWERS thread of lore by a WWASP-ey would really break down thier cognitive dissonance.
Criticism is a bad word to people who have no substance to what they say, be it program parents, politicians, or business leaders. In this case, all three..
But at any rate, after passing some critical review and just doing it all out in the open instead of a piecewise conversation, I kind of wonder what we're going to get except a ton of "I believe" or "MY son" or "I had no other choice at the time" or "give me another option"'s from Karen. LE SIGH.
Also, Ill just say it again. THERE IS NO EASY ANSWER!
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This reminds a lot of Overlord's antics. What ever happened to that bible-thumping jesus freak?
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But i'm not going to sit here any longer and let you try to fuck up a good thing: somebody willing to listen!!!
There's plenty of them.
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exhausted- Yes, I think he took responsibility for his actions. I saw evidence of that change when he came home. Before everything was always someone else's fault or he was "unlucky" or got screwed. A lot of therapy and reflection happened before he was ready to write the letter.
hmmmm...that's very interesting, as I have one who blames everyone and everything on anyone but himself and his own actions ... no matter what is said, he just cannot see that what happens to him is a direct consequence of his actions, he actually believes what he's saying as well! :o
Are you thinking about sending your kid to a program? :( ::boohoo::
LOL no! It's tempting but no - he asked me to send him to one the other night though, (wilderness) I explained what could happen to him out there, it just made him want to go more, because "Those pussys wouldn't be able to break me down" dontchya know? :-?
The worse I make it sound - the more he hounds me to send him, he's going out there to teach them a real lesson right!
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OMG That sounds like me!! ::bwahaha::
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Are you thinking about sending your kid to a program? :( ::boohoo::
LOL no! It's tempting but no - he asked me to send him to one the other night though, (wilderness) I explained what could happen to him out there, it just made him want to go more, because "Those pussys wouldn't be able to break me down" dontchya know? :-?
The worse I make it sound - the more he hounds me to send him, he's going out there to teach them a real lesson right!
Interesting reaction by your son. Mine heard a lot about other WC's while he was at his -- from the staff, many of whom had worked in other WC's or from fellow participants that had been sent to other WC's before. He had a reaction like "those are pussy programs." Kind of a macho "Rambo" thing. His last solo he didn't even have his knife, which he later discovered was stolen by another member of his group who had lost hers. He found a broken shard of glass and used that in place of a knife to prep his fire kit. He was damn proud of being able to say "hey look, I don't even need a fucking knife to survive."
Therapeutic? Doubtful. Self-esteem boost? I'd say so. Doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it harmful either.
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When we transitioned our son out of wilderness the first time, he was really upset by the noise and commercialism of the outside world. He thought he wanted a McDonald's cheeseburger, but he had trouble eating it. Everything seemed crowded and noisy to him. He didn't shower at the base building like most of the kids did. Part of him wanted to keep the wilderness experience with him- filth and all. We loaded him and his ton of gear into the car and started the drive to Denver. We then flew him to NC to deliver him to Carlbrook. We had to get hims ome clothes on the way. He said it was hard to sleep in the bed in the hotel! (he adjusted back to creature comforts pretty quickly, to the extent he had them at Carlbrook).
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When we transitioned our son out of wilderness the first time, he was really upset by the noise and commercialism of the outside world. He thought he wanted a McDonald's cheeseburger, but he had trouble eating it. Everything seemed crowded and noisy to him. He didn't shower at the base building like most of the kids did. Part of him wanted to keep the wilderness experience with him- filth and all. We loaded him and his ton of gear into the car and started the drive to Denver. We then flew him to NC to deliver him to Carlbrook. We had to get hims ome clothes on the way. He said it was hard to sleep in the bed in the hotel! (he adjusted back to creature comforts pretty quickly, to the extent he had them at Carlbrook).
That's what a communist re-education camp is designed to do. Did he start chanting workers unite as well?
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I felt the same when I visited America, I am a country girl bought up on farmland, I was terrified!!
As for the Rambo thing, my son would break within 2 hours of being there, be on the phone begging to come home - he'd never admit that, hed rather die than admit it, and he'd still come away saying it was a breeze & he could do it all again :roll:
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hed rather die than admit it
Sadly, many have.
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The CIA, in its "Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual ? 1983" (reprinted in the April 1997 issue of Harper's Magazine), summed up the theory of coercion thus:
"The purpose of all coercive techniques is to induce psychological regression in the subject by bringing a superior outside force to bear on his will to resist. Regression is basically a loss of autonomy, a reversion to an earlier behavioral level. As the subject regresses, his learned personality traits fall away in reverse chronological order. He begins to lose the capacity to carry out the highest creative activities, to deal with complex situations, or to cope with stressful interpersonal relationships or repeated frustrations."
http://samvak.tripod.com/torturepsychology.html (http://samvak.tripod.com/torturepsychology.html)
Sound familiar anyone?
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The CIA, in its "Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual ? 1983" (reprinted in the April 1997 issue of Harper's Magazine), summed up the theory of coercion thus:
"The purpose of all coercive techniques is to induce psychological regression in the subject by bringing a superior outside force to bear on his will to resist. Regression is basically a loss of autonomy, a reversion to an earlier behavioral level. As the subject regresses, his learned personality traits fall away in reverse chronological order. He begins to lose the capacity to carry out the highest creative activities, to deal with complex situations, or to cope with stressful interpersonal relationships or repeated frustrations."
http://samvak.tripod.com/torturepsychology.html (http://samvak.tripod.com/torturepsychology.html)
Sound familiar anyone?
In the case of wilderness, the "superior outside force" is as much or more "mother nature" as it is the other humans present.
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When we transitioned our son out of wilderness the first time, he was really upset by the noise and commercialism of the outside world. He thought he wanted a McDonald's cheeseburger, but he had trouble eating it. Everything seemed crowded and noisy to him. He didn't shower at the base building like most of the kids did. Part of him wanted to keep the wilderness experience with him- filth and all. We loaded him and his ton of gear into the car and started the drive to Denver. We then flew him to NC to deliver him to Carlbrook. We had to get hims ome clothes on the way. He said it was hard to sleep in the bed in the hotel! (he adjusted back to creature comforts pretty quickly, to the extent he had them at Carlbrook).
Mine was similarly a little freaked out by the lights & noise, as well as by a rather violent movie he watched with a friend within a few days of getting home. He also couldn't wait to go camping again and sleep under the stars, which we did within 2 weeks.
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One of the things he missed the most though was cigarettes, and he managed to get some before we even left Utah. Wilderness apparently doesn't do much for tobacco addiction. Then again, I haven't found much that does -- still struggling with my own habit after all these years.
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The CIA, in its "Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual ? 1983" (reprinted in the April 1997 issue of Harper's Magazine), summed up the theory of coercion thus:
"The purpose of all coercive techniques is to induce psychological regression in the subject by bringing a superior outside force to bear on his will to resist. Regression is basically a loss of autonomy, a reversion to an earlier behavioral level. As the subject regresses, his learned personality traits fall away in reverse chronological order. He begins to lose the capacity to carry out the highest creative activities, to deal with complex situations, or to cope with stressful interpersonal relationships or repeated frustrations."
http://samvak.tripod.com/torturepsychology.html (http://samvak.tripod.com/torturepsychology.html)
Sound familiar anyone?
In the case of wilderness, the "superior outside force" is as much or more "mother nature" as it is the other humans present.
Is it the "nature" or is it the lack of the society?
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"Mother nature" is not the coercive force that drives these teens to do the things they are required to do. These kids are purposely placed in a foreign social environment, a very carefully controlled social environment (facade), for a reason. So they can be coerced, in a way that cannot be done at home.
The coercion does not come from the challenge to light a fire. The kids aren't retarded, they know that the counselor can get in a truck and drive to Big 5 and buy a propane stove for everyone if that is what was desired. They are placed in a social environment to give the effect that it's mother nature doing the coercion, and this is what parents obviously want to believe to.
The coercion doesn't come from trees and bushes, it comes from psychological pressure manifistated through psyche invading structure of the program itself.
The first level of coercion comes from peer pressure. They force you to reveal things about yourself in front of the group (or in karens case read a letter from your parents) which gives the false sense of comraderie (again, it's forced, a facade). This is done to create a sense of peer pressure so that they can use that to force the kids to march, do stupid psychological games with the young staff, and not just sit down and not get up.
Tell me, what would happen to a kid if they just sat down, and played the "jello game" so familiar to those of us who watch small children? Well that brings us to the second level of coercion, which is no longer psychological. They will use every psychological manipulation available to them, usually they reach for humiliation tactics first and last, maybe at first they might even try some motivation. But in the end psychological manipulation can only go so far.
So what if a kid just sits down and refuses to go?
It's not mother nature who's going to be doing the coercion in that case. I don't pretend to know the answer to this question. But I wouldn't want to be a staff member if that were the case, and knowing how head strong and defiant teenagers are I would never want to be in this situation, isolaed, in the middle of nowhere.
I know parents love this torture-light bullshit, but the theory behind it is intrusive and dangerous. It seemed to work out in Karen's kids case and Punk's case. Great. I can apply this same technique and convince a group of people of anything you want me to. If I use this same technique and start some fat camps and use it to force kids to lose weight is that crossing the line?
How far can this psychological theory and technique be used to further commercial means? It would seem endless.
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Am I the only person compelled to vomit after readint SNWP website?
Talk about playing to parents naive romantic notions, I've never seen such an overuse of cheesy heart string pluckin' metaphors before.
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"Mother nature" is not the coercive force that drives these teens to do the things they are required to do. These kids are purposely placed in a foreign social environment, a very carefully controlled social environment (facade), for a reason. So they can be coerced, in a way that cannot be done at home.
The coercion does not come from the challenge to light a fire. The kids aren't retarded, they know that the counselor can get in a truck and drive to Big 5 and buy a propane stove for everyone if that is what was desired. They are placed in a social environment to give the effect that it's mother nature doing the coercion, and this is what parents obviously want to believe to.
The coercion doesn't come from trees and bushes, it comes from psychological pressure manifistated through psyche invading structure of the program itself.
The first level of coercion comes from peer pressure. They force you to reveal things about yourself in front of the group (or in karens case read a letter from your parents) which gives the false sense of comraderie (again, it's forced, a facade). This is done to create a sense of peer pressure so that they can use that to force the kids to march, do stupid psychological games with the young staff, and not just sit down and not get up.
Tell me, what would happen to a kid if they just sat down, and played the "jello game" so familiar to those of us who watch small children? Well that brings us to the second level of coercion, which is no longer psychological. They will use every psychological manipulation available to them, usually they reach for humiliation tactics first and last, maybe at first they might even try some motivation. But in the end psychological manipulation can only go so far.
Obviously coercion, peer pressure, and all of the things you mentioned have an effect on the participants, and the hope is that some positive changes and insights result from it, even though that flies in the face of all recognized theories of psychotherapy.
Don't you find it interesting that they have adult groups (18-24 year olds) in the field as well as teen groups? What sort of adult would voluntarily sign himself up and pay all that money to have this kind of coercive experience? Probably the same sort of adult that would take a job as a field staffer (which doesn't pay much) and agree to live the same way as the participants, eat the same shitty food, use the same method for starting a fire, etc. Despite the madness of the method, there are some people who seem to find value in this sort of thing.
So what if a kid just sits down and refuses to go?
It's not mother nature who's going to be doing the coercion in that case. I don't pretend to know the answer to this question. But I wouldn't want to be a staff member if that were the case, and knowing how head strong and defiant teenagers are I would never want to be in this situation, isolaed, in the middle of nowhere.
The coercion was always psychological, never physical in the group my son was in. It would be a serious matter if a staffer even touched a participant in any way, and there always had to be 2 staffers present with any participant or group of participants.
I know parents love this torture-light bullshit, but the theory behind it is intrusive and dangerous. It seemed to work out in Karen's kids case and Punk's case. Great. I can apply this same technique and convince a group of people of anything you want me to. If I use this same technique and start some fat camps and use it to force kids to lose weight is that crossing the line?
How far can this psychological theory and technique be used to further commercial means? It would seem endless.
You're right it is intrusive and dangerous, and I don't recommend it to anybody -- even parents who were as desperate as we were. We got lucky. It could just as well have gone the other way. Interesting you should mention "fat camps" because someone is already doing exactly that. And you're right, there must be other commercial possibilities that could exploit these same 'wilderness therapy' ideas. They would be equally as dangerous and their outcomes just as unpredictable.
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Am I the only person compelled to vomit after reading SNWP website?
Talk about playing to parents naive romantic notions, I've never seen such an overuse of cheesy heart string pluckin' metaphors before.
No. You are not the only one. Websites like SNWP's are what drove me to Fornit's in the first place. I had never heard of programs before. I was just Googling Outward Bound and Wilderness Challenges when I came across the "Troubled Teen Industry." I became so upset by the Industry's own websites and methods that I had to research it further. My first reaction was to see if there was any kind of scientific, psychiatric, basis for doing this. I could not believe psychology experts could officially support such tactics. I was right. They don?t.
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Despite the madness of the method, there are some people who seem to find value in this sort of thing.
Snack charming for teens. Teach them the value of natural consequences.
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Snake*
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Excerpt from Brooke Adam's account of Ian August's death.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... ooke#55721 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=55721&highlight=brooke#55721)
The fatal mile: The sun rose at 6:08 a.m. on July 13 and began to broil Utah. The headline on a Page 1 story in The Salt Lake Tribune promised "No Break from Heat" as weather forecasters predicted all-time highs. In North Canyon, Bear Clan breakfasted on Toasty O's cereal, slices of bread spread with peanut butter and jelly, a piece of fruit and juice.
The clan set out for what was supposed to be a 3-mile hike around 9 a.m. -- a little later than Hale had hoped in order to avoid the heat.
Ian hiked slower than usual on the strenuous route; he and another teen stopped every few minutes, moving at the rate of one city block an hour based on a reading from Hale's GPS unit.
Soon, the group spread out, with the faster hikers ahead, Ian in the middle and Hale in the rear with the slowest boy.
Ian finished his water, his supply already reduced during the previous night's hike, and began to complain of thirst. Some teens shared their water, and Hale gave him half of her quart at one point. Ian drank it in a gulp.
The group crossed three ridges, one hill after another. Ian labored, at times stumbling. Two teens started urging him along.
"Come on, man, you can do it," one teen told Ian, according to a witness statement taken by the Millard County Sheriff's Office.
But as Ian crested that final hill around 11:30 a.m., after hiking 1.4 miles, all he could see before him was more of the same: up, down, up and down, an undulating landscape of sagebrush, native grasses, broken shale and scattered junipers and pinyon trees. To his right spread the Sevier Desert, empty and browned under the summer sun.
On the ridge, Ian stood still, his body already in the process of shutting down as his blood thickened in the heat and he became delirious. One teen noted Ian didn't seem to know what was going on.
"Come on, man." Ian didn't respond. "You can go down this hill willingly or we can put you down it," his hiking companion said.
[Commaraderie or peer pressure/coercion?]
Gause, who had reached the crest of the next hill, watched the agitated teens as they spent approximately 20 minutes trying to get Ian moving.
"Come on, man, who dogs it on the downhill?" one frustrated teen asked Ian.
Ian just stood there, dazed and sweating "like a pig."
The teen grabbed him and began pulling him along. Ian finally responded.
"Oh, I can do it," he said.
When Ian didn't move, the boys threatened to drag him to the next camp.
"No, I can do it," Ian said. And then he sat down. The two teens pulled off Ian's 29-pound backpack, and Ian lay against it.
One teen backtracked to Hale, who was about 20 yards away. She called out to him: "Ian, get your pack on and let's go."
When Hale reached Ian, he stood briefly and then sank back down to his pack.
"So do you need a break? Are you tired? What's the problem?" Hale asked Ian. He crossed his arms and stared at her. Hale tried to cajole Ian into moving for about 20 minutes. According to one teen's taped statement, Hale nudged Ian with her foot, shook him and slapped his face to try to rouse him from his stupor. Finally, she pulled out her radio and called Mark Wardle, who was in Delta.
"I can't convince Ian that he needs to continue hiking," she told Wardle. "What should I do?"
Wardle told her to check Ian's consciousness by doing a "hand drop test" -- holding his arm above his face and letting it go to see how he reacted. It flushes out fakers, Hale [an EMT, btw] would say later, because a conscious person will protect the face.
Ian's arm slipped to his side.
"I need to know if there's something wrong," Hale said to Ian. "Respond to me, tell me your name."
"Ian," he said.
Hale called Wardle again. "He seems to be conscious," she reported. "I can't get him to hike. What should I do?"
Wardle, who already had begun driving toward Marjum Pass, told Hale to pour water over Ian and move him into the shade.
Hale beckoned to Gause to come assist her. Ian now lay on the ground, motionless, his eyes open and occasionally making contact although his breathing was "strange," a mixture of a moan and a cry.
The counselors sat Ian up and tried to get him to drink water. It merely dribbled down his face. They poured warm water from their bottles over his head, chest and back.
The noon sun had burned down on the dying teen for more than an hour when Gause grabbed Ian's torso and Hale held his feet and "pulled" him 10 feet to a patch of shade under a pinyon tree.
Still convinced Ian was faking illness, the two counselors split up -- Hale running ahead to check on the rest of the clan and Gause moving 30 to 50 feet away so he could observe Ian from behind another tree.
Gause noticed Ian's moans stopped minutes after Hale left -- proof, he figured, that Ian was acting. Gause waited about 10 minutes and then crept closer to Ian.
As Hale made her way back to the tree, Wardle called for an update.
"How is Ian doing?" Hale yelled over to Gause, who, figuring his cover was blown, hurried to the tree.
Ian had stopped breathing and lacked a pulse.
Sitting alone under the pinyon, Ian August had died.
As Gause began CPR, Hale called Wardle for help. The 9-1-1 call came into the Millard County Sheriff's Office at 1:30 p.m.; it would take two hours for the ambulance crew to reach Ian and in a series of errors, an AirMed helicopter dispatched from Salt Lake City, would never arrive after receiving incorrect GPS coordinates and running low on fuel.
The truth is, medical experts later concluded, it didn't matter. Only an immediate ice bath might have saved Ian.
Judith called Susan on July 14. "Are you sitting down," she began.
"Yes," Susan said.
"Our son is dead," Judith told her.
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Yes they react out of fear and confusion back in the real world so it all worked!
He found a shard of glass so he got self esteem from a completely artificial situation that he achieved and overcame and thrived and grew and became a man in!
Whee!
Does anyone else get the glazed-over, fake smile impression of someone from the stepford wives I get? Getting self esteem from overcoming some fucking wilderness camp? Puhleeze.
I'd post the pressure.jpg thing again but I doubt I have to. Not everyone gets some automagical booster shot in thier ass of 'esteem' from overcoming stuff. It also wears you down, and the "its what you make of it line" rings more and more hollow each time you hear it.
But yeah we've still yet to prove this program does shit and TSW's breakdown was just conveniently ignored by the apolgoists so..
:roll: back to your regularly scheduled bullshit.
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replace blah with babble babble bitch bitch and you got a kickass Marilyn Manson song :rofl:
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1989 Replies
33391 Views
Is this the longest running thread in Fornits history? If not, gotta be up there.
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The first letter we got began, "I am ridden with disgust at what you have done to me."
At what point did this change?
Is it possible that he thought he would never leave if he didn't appear to change?
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Not even close
http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=4491
How actually useful is this thread? The reak of program apolegetics is so strong it is comprable to mustard gas.
The use is that there is actual debate going on with a parent who has put their kid through the system. What use is discussion if everyone agrees or just yells fuck you to all those who dissent!
To Charlie, a few pages ago you were talking about Second nature teaching responsibility to your son. It sound to me like he wrote what you both needed to hear. If a kid writes this stuff because he is seen as not progressing without it then I dont see how this reflects genuine internal change as much as the fact that he is in an unpleasant situation and needs to do or say something to get out.
We were also prevoiusly discussing book bans @ carlbrook. You said that even a normal school would be a little concerned if the kid did not engage with his class mates. possibly this is true. But a normal school would allow interaction with peers to be a bit more natural. Eg watchingTV or playing pool in the common room, playing sports etc. This would also play second fiddle to the primary academics which the kid is there for. I can understand why a kid would rather sit in a corner reading Ayn Rand than being made have therapeudic" appointments" with every kid in their house. it would be exhausting. Would you honestly feel comfortable spending an hour every night discussing your feelings with your work buddies? And would you not feel that this got in the way of actual stuff you had to do?
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :roll: :-? ::bangin:: :wave: :silly: :smokin: ::boohoo:: ::armed:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::crybaby:: ::cheers:: ::mecry:: ::mecry:: ::mecry:: ::kiss:: ::rocker:: ::read:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::nod:: ::hatter:: ::burger:: ::burger:: ::bwahaha:: :tup: :tup: :tup:
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Psy and OzGirl- I'll reply to you and not to the SPAM.
Our son didn't show much internal change for about 4 weeks. He was more engaged in the hard wilderness skills and giving feedback to others rather than sharing much about himself. It was a gradual process. I was asked to write a really tough, emotional letter in about week 4 which was more emotional and painful than the initial impact letter, which was fairly factual. This got through to our son. After that he started trying to figure out his anger and hurt and how he could manage himself better.
I don't think he had any fear of being in wilderness indefinitely. He knew how expensive it was and that kids weren't there more than a few months.
How did we know he wasn't just feeding us/them what he needed to in order to get out? This is where we trusted the therapist and the nature of our son's letters to us. It was very clear that there was a shift in him. He became much more honest about what had gone on at home and how he felt about having to leave school and his friends. As I said before, this therapist was outstanding and my son worked very well with him. The process was designed to push their buttons in a safe and controlled environment. I am not a psychologist, so I can't explain the entire process, but it was explained to me at the time and we talked to our home psychologist about it and he thought the whole thing was brilliant. My son looks back on it now and agrees (remember-he did two stints at 2N).
Carlbrook he could fake it to a great extent- wilderness he could not.
As for the journal entry that was posted from the 2N website- I don't see anything wrong with that. Without being part of the groups and the process, I don't see how you can conclude that it is ineffective and bullshit.
The reason I keep asking about alternatives isn't to justify what we did. I don't need to do that. It is to sincerely try to find an answer to the dilemma of what parents are supposed to do when a teen can not remain in the household. Just assume that this is the case- the teen is a danger to the household and himself, is not addicted to substances and you do not want to involve the legal system. This is where I am looking for options and until there are some, parents will continue to resort to the programs you believe are abusive and a waste of money.
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http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing34.html
"Steve Eichel, a psychologist, used his cat to prove that some certifications are easy to get. Zoe was certified as a hypnotherapist by several associations including the National Guild of Hypnotists."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I SO totally want to call him and say "Can I make an appointment with Zoe?" hee hee. hypnotic kitty.
My cats hypnotize me. They stare me in the eyes, I lose track of time, and when I look down, my dinner's gone. "You want me to have the chicken.. yes you do."
As for that SN stuff. Buncha crap. Think there's enough bullshit lingo laced through that testimony? Took me a second to figure out what an "earth phaser" was. "got 2 new earth phasers." Sounds like something that would happen in Doom or Quake... if it was programmed by hippies. Eat dirt, bitch, I'm packing an earth phaser.
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I would be glad to hear about confirmed death, injuries or abuse at 2N during the last 6 years. It did not appear to me that the journal entry went into detail about the specific therapeutic program for that teen. It just outlined the structure of the day.
TSW, you have SO much credibility with parents. All you can say to me in response to my concern about alternatives is that I am blowing off my parental responsibilities. Do you recommend keeping the child at home no matter what is going on? Perhaps hire a huge personal escort to keep the family and teen safe? I'm open to suggestions.
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You're right, Gookie, this thread does go around in circles.
wheeeeee!
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The longer the discussion, the more I agree with TSW...
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I'm open to suggestions.
There is too much money to be made to share these things in public.
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The reason I keep asking about alternatives isn't to justify what we did. I don't need to do that. It is to sincerely try to find an answer to the dilemma of what parents are supposed to do when a teen can not remain in the household. Just assume that this is the case- the teen is a danger to the household and himself, is not addicted to substances and you do not want to involve the legal system. This is where I am looking for options and until there are some, parents will continue to resort to the programs you believe are abusive and a waste of money.
I understand what Karen is saying and I ask the same questions. I'm all in favor of community-based treatment, and I personally feel it is criminal how little funding mental health care gets in this country and how shitty most of the community-based options are: basically 12-step meetings, IOP's and a phonebook full of psychologists & psychiatrists. Some of you may never agree, but there are situations where someone just needs to get away for awhile and hopefully come back to a different situation. But where can he or she go?
Earlier in this never-ending thread, I mentioned that I thought my son could've done just as well if he'd spent the summer working on a fishing trawler off the Alaskan coast. I'm not sure how realistic that is for a fucked up 17-year old, but who knows? Likewise, if he had an opportunity to go away for the summer on some kind of trip with trusted people, that might've been workable. I don't know how you would work in "therapy" in such a situation, and some people really do need medication for certain conditions, so there are some practical logistics that might be difficult. Legal system hassles also need to be addressed when a kid needs the court's permission to leave the state.
He and we had several goals, but one that we all agreed on was that he needed to find his way out of a very negative "rut" he had gotten into with his social & school environment and peer group. There must be lots of ways to do that besides The Programs, but whatever those ways are, they aren't so obvious to parents who have tried every local option and who come to the realization that maybe if he just got away for a little while, that alone would be helpful to him and to all of us.
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There's no easy options when it comes to kids with issues, the only real option is persistence and patience. Like I said earlier I was just like most kids that get sent away but my mom just never excepted that as an answer. She only sent me to a hospital psych ward after what she thought was a suicide attempt. She only left me in there a day because she realized that they had no real plan to treat me. You guys don't have to justify your decision(I don't think you're trying to) I understand you were desperate.
But parents can't keep sending kids to these programs because of a lack of options. The best option would be to send them to a state licensed psych ward, they have much less abuse allegations, and most importantly, oversight and accountability. It will take awhile to see change but you gotta keep trying, even if you have to try the same things over and over again. Never turn to law enforcement unless you have no choice because your kid could get court order to a facility and you would have no say in the matter(Read this horror story (http://http://www.nospank.net/martell.htm))
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I'm interested to know what parents would do if there were no such thing as boot camps/wilderness/any programs of any sort? What would you do with your children if these facilities simply did not exist?
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I suspect a lot more would wind up in the legal system or on the streets.
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Psy and OzGirl- I'll reply to you and not to the SPAM.
Our son didn't show much internal change for about 4 weeks. He was more engaged in the hard wilderness skills and giving feedback to others rather than sharing much about himself. It was a gradual process. I was asked to write a really tough, emotional letter in about week 4 which was more emotional and painful than the initial impact letter, which was fairly factual.
Define "fairly factual".
This got through to our son. After that he started trying to figure out his anger and hurt and how he could manage himself better.
I don't think he had any fear of being in wilderness indefinitely. He knew how expensive it was and that kids weren't there more than a few months.
How did we know he wasn't just feeding us/them what he needed to in order to get out? This is where we trusted the therapist and the nature of our son's letters to us. It was very clear that there was a shift in him. He became much more honest about what had gone on at home and how he felt about having to leave school and his friends. As I said before, this therapist was outstanding and my son worked very well with him. The process was designed to push their buttons in a safe and controlled environment.
Hmm. Define "push their buttons".
I am not a psychologist, so I can't explain the entire process
Could you give us details on what you remember about this therapy?
but it was explained to me at the time and we talked to our home psychologist about it and he thought the whole thing was brilliant. My son looks back on it now and agrees (remember-he did two stints at 2N).
Carlbrook he could fake it to a great extent- wilderness he could not.
As for the journal entry that was posted from the 2N website- I don't see anything wrong with that. Without being part of the groups and the process, I don't see how you can conclude that it is ineffective and bullshit.
I haven't concluded anything at all. That's why i'm asking you questions.
The reason I keep asking about alternatives isn't to justify what we did. I don't need to do that. It is to sincerely try to find an answer to the dilemma of what parents are supposed to do when a teen can not remain in the household.
And this question has to be answered if we ever want parents to stop considering institutionalization as the "last resort".
There is a hesitation here (justifiably) to endorse any form of treatment remotely resembling a "program".
Just assume that this is the case- the teen is a danger to the household and himself, is not addicted to substances and you do not want to involve the legal system. This is where I am looking for options and until there are some, parents will continue to resort to the programs you believe are abusive and a waste of money.
Bingo.
"Tough it out" is not an answer many parents will listen to, especially not when Educational consultants are talking to the parents, emphasizing a one size fits all "fix your kid" solution.
I'm going to start an "alternatives" thread and see what people can come up with.
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Dead or in jail Dead or in jail Dead or in jail!!!!!!
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I'm interested to know what parents would do if there were no such thing as boot camps/wilderness/any programs of any sort? What would you do with your children if these facilities simply did not exist?
I sometimes think of people in the public eye, like an actor, or a musician. I read about some of the shit they got into when they were young. Drugs, trouble, whatever. Really bad stuff. Way worse than anything I ever did. A lot of times, I think, "Damn, glad they didn't have my parents, or they would have been shipped off for sure." Well, their parents didn't end up shipping them off. Even though they might have been wealthy parents and could afford it. And some of the people who were the worst, most fucked up brats ever, are doing pretty fucking sweet now. Yeah, there might have been rehab a few or more times, (and if they did or they didn't, it's nobody else's business, because they are an adult and take whatever fucking drugs they want.) but last I checked, they were making a hell of a lot of money, selling a lot of records, and starring in a lot of movies.
I would venture to guess that the amount of youths who end up DIOIJ without the help of a program is about the same as the amount who do go to one. (And Szalavitz has written about "success rates" re: synanon being similar to heroin users with no treatment, as an example.) It's just that the ones who didn't go don't have to deal with the added baggage of whatever the fuck happened to them while in placement.
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With respect to the initial impact letter being "fairly factual", I meant that it was not full of "feelings". We generally mentioned being hurt, scared and disappointed, but the focus was on the actual acts and offenses and not on how we "felt" about it. The second letter was more about how painful it was for us (parents) and his sister to have gone through what we did due to his actions, and how it felt not to have him at home and be at a school where we could be part of his life and support him in his sport etc.
Pushing buttons is not a bad thing if done in a controlled and therapeutic manner. Part of putting him with the boy who was so socially difficult was that our son understood that this boy's ADD and social issues drove him crazy, and that he needed to figure out a way to deal with the kid and not blow up.
No more therapeutic details.
Tough it out stops being an option.
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I have to disagree Charly, I've found what you've had to say very interesting reading, but not on this one, some parents do 'tough it out' they have no choice but to tough it out
I am not going to condemn your decision to send your son away because it is not my place to judge you & I wasn't the one having to live with it
i tough it out everyday and will continue to do so, it's my job to do so, I brought these kids into this world, but it does not give me the right to take them out, it is up to me to see them through, doing the best I can to try to help them, if that means sacrificing how I'd like my life to be, then so be it, it's what i have to do .... I cannot agree that sending them away because I've messed up my job as a parent is my only option now, I have to put right where I've gone wrong, I won't say I know what that is, because I don't have a clue, I'm just playing it by ear and learning what works and what doesn't, giving plenty of the what works and throwing away the what doesn't - I may fail, I may end up with 3 boys dead or in jail, but I know I will have tried, hopefully my boys will know I have tried too
All I ask of them is to try as well, I have told them I will not try to 'make' them do anything, that I am not trying to control them in any way, I have however given them options, the ball is firmly in their court, it is up to them to decide which way they want this to go, it's taken me a long time to realise this, but I have got to the point now where I have learnt the vauable lesson that it is their choice, all i had to do was spell out their options and now back off & let them make those choices, fully aware that they cannot blame me for any consequences of bad decisions, becausee they are totally their decisions (within reason, i wouldn't stand and watch them do something really dangerous)
Their life choices are theirs, the consequences are theirs, I've protected and mommy coddled them for so long that they don't know how to decide for themselves what bad choices are, I've always been there to protect them - well not anymore, it's maturing time, and believe me this is the hardest thing I've ever had to do, this is my tough love and I hate it
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Toughing it out is not an option if it is destructive to others in the household and to the teen themselves. I don't know what you could do in your situation, but in ours, my son could not remain in the household. He agrees with that. It had nothing to do with not loving him or not standing by him. It had to do with saving him and protecting the rest of the family. I am not going to judge you, but I've already told you how well I think your way is working.
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Toughing it out is not an option if it is destructive to others in the household and to the teen themselves. I don't know what you could do in your situation, but in ours, my son could not remain in the household. He agrees with that. It had nothing to do with not loving him or not standing by him. It had to do with saving him and protecting the rest of the family. I am not going to judge you, but I've already told you how well I think your way is working.
She has no other option and most people on this forum agree that her 19 year old seems to be the root of things. If she can get rid of him as a crappy role model, the rest of the kids might eventually snap out of it. She is working on this afaik.
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Psy and OzGirl- I'll reply to you and not to the SPAM.
Our son didn't show much internal change for about 4 weeks. He was more engaged in the hard wilderness skills and giving feedback to others rather than sharing much about himself. It was a gradual process. I was asked to write a really tough, emotional letter in about week 4 which was more emotional and painful than the initial impact letter, which was fairly factual. This got through to our son. After that he started trying to figure out his anger and hurt and how he could manage himself better.
I don't think he had any fear of being in wilderness indefinitely. He knew how expensive it was and that kids weren't there more than a few months.
How did we know he wasn't just feeding us/them what he needed to in order to get out? This is where we trusted the therapist and the nature of our son's letters to us. It was very clear that there was a shift in him. He became much more honest about what had gone on at home and how he felt about having to leave school and his friends. As I said before, this therapist was outstanding and my son worked very well with him. The process was designed to push their buttons in a safe and controlled environment. I am not a psychologist, so I can't explain the entire process, but it was explained to me at the time and we talked to our home psychologist about it and he thought the whole thing was brilliant. My son looks back on it now and agrees (remember-he did two stints at 2N).
Carlbrook he could fake it to a great extent- wilderness he could not.
As for the journal entry that was posted from the 2N website- I don't see anything wrong with that. Without being part of the groups and the process, I don't see how you can conclude that it is ineffective and bullshit.
The reason I keep asking about alternatives isn't to justify what we did. I don't need to do that. It is to sincerely try to find an answer to the dilemma of what parents are supposed to do when a teen can not remain in the household. Just assume that this is the case- the teen is a danger to the household and himself, is not addicted to substances and you do not want to involve the legal system. This is where I am looking for options and until there are some, parents will continue to resort to the programs you believe are abusive and a waste of money.
The entire process is designed to force your son into disclosing his innermost, private thoughts and then force him to change them to conform with what the program and by extension you think they should be. And you see nothing wrong with this.
A human being's innermost thoughts, desires, secrets, views of the world are sacred and inviolate. To force disclosure of them and force change upon them is the most fundamental form of human rights abuse there is. You and other parents who use programs fail to see this basic ethical issue.
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Toughing it out is not an option if it is destructive to others in the household and to the teen themselves. I don't know what you could do in your situation, but in ours, my son could not remain in the household. He agrees with that. It had nothing to do with not loving him or not standing by him. It had to do with saving him and protecting the rest of the family. I am not going to judge you, but I've already told you how well I think your way is working.
What about the suggestion I made earlier, the hospital psych ward. It's licensed, has oversight and accountability, the staff is very well trained, and it will give your kid and your family the timeout you're looking for. Also diagnostic test could be done to see if the behavior is the result of mental illness. He would be safe, your family would be safe and believe me if he is a danger to himself or to others they will admit him.
Please let me know what you think about this option....
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"The entire process is designed to force your son into disclosing his innermost, private thoughts and then force him to change them to conform with what the program and by extension you think they should be."
That is false, especially in the case of 2N. My son's private thoughts are just that. My son's actions became my business. My son's reasons for these actions were something he needed to work out in therapy. He was able to avoid doing this at home. He wasn't able to avoid it as easily, and chose to engage in therapy, at 2N.
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Part of putting him with the boy who was so socially difficult was that our son understood that this boy's ADD and social issues drove him crazy, and that he needed to figure out a way to deal with the kid and not blow up.
ADD!?!!?
If ADD is the root of the problem how exactly is a wilderness program going to treat that? If you're not treating the program you're merely treating the symptoms and the problem will find other ways of rearing it's ugly head.
Did your son every discover why he was acting the way he was? Otherwise, how did the program help him?
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A hospital psych ward was not appropriate for my son. He did not have a mental illness. We were clearly told by medical and mental health professionals to steer clear of psychiatric facilities. My son was much better off in the woods than sitting in a hospital room or in a lounge learning how to make potholders. That also would have severely impacted his future educational plans.
I do agree it is an appropriate option in some cases.
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Part of putting him with the boy who was so socially difficult was that our son understood that this boy's ADD and social issues drove him crazy, and that he needed to figure out a way to deal with the kid and not blow up.
ADD!?!!?
If ADD is the root of the problem how exactly is a wilderness program going to treat that? If you're not treating the program you're merely treating the symptoms and the problem will find other ways of rearing it's ugly head.
Did your son every discover why he was acting the way he was? Otherwise, how did the program help him?
That's one of the main problems I have with many of these programs, they treat mental illnesses as behavioral problems.
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A hospital psych ward was not appropriate for my son. He did not have a mental illness. We were clearly told by medical and mental health professionals to steer clear of psychiatric facilities.
So, essentially, you were told by mental health professionals to avoid other mental health professionals? Did they give a good reason?
My son was much better off in the woods than sitting in a hospital room or in a lounge learning how to make potholders. That also would have severely impacted his future educational plans.
So you're reason is partially having to do with the stigma associated with institutionalization?
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That's one of the main problems I have with many of these programs, they treat mental illnesses as behavioral problems.
Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what my parents' rationale was for sending a suicidal, bipolar teen to go live in the woods. "Oh, he likes the woods." I know in the past I've said that it was probably better than a psych ward, but I've reconsidered that position.
Ultimately, I really didn't need either.
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A hospital psych ward was not appropriate for my son. He did not have a mental illness. We were clearly told by medical and mental health professionals to steer clear of psychiatric facilities. My son was much better off in the woods than sitting in a hospital room or in a lounge learning how to make potholders. That also would have severely impacted his future educational plans.
I do agree it is an appropriate option in some cases.
Psych wards are not just for suffers of mental illness, they treat behavioral problems too. Any self destructive behavior like violence or drug use they will treat as well as illnesses. I don't see how it could hurt his schooling options any more then wilderness, but maybe you know something I don't.
P.S. Potholder making is not on the agenda, and neither is fire making with sticks
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That's one of the main problems I have with many of these programs, they treat mental illnesses as behavioral problems.
Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out what my parents' rationale was for sending a suicidal, bipolar teen to go live in the woods. "Oh, he likes the woods." I know in the past I've said that it was probably better than a psych ward, but I've reconsidered that position.
Ultimately, I really didn't need either. Psych wards are for 5150s, and I wasn't planning on killing myself again.
I feel for ya, I suffer with clinical depression and it's not compatible with wilderness camps. Most days just getting up to pee was difficult. I don't even wanna mention what wilderness camp could do to my OCD
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My son's issues were not compatible with a psych hospital.
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A hospital psych ward was not appropriate for my son. He did not have a mental illness. We were clearly told by medical and mental health professionals to steer clear of psychiatric facilities. My son was much better off in the woods than sitting in a hospital room or in a lounge learning how to make potholders.
He'd have been much better off at home, or left on his own. Seriously.
That also would have severely impacted his future educational plans.
That seems to be a MAJOR dealio to you people. :roll: Fucking ivy league crap. I grew up with that mentality....programs just validate the shitty ways that most of these parents view their kids anyway. As an extension and reflection of themselves. Get over yourselves and let your kids grow up in the way that makes sense to them. They'll learn those valuable life lessons you're so anxious for them to gain a lot quicker than if you fuck with that natural process. Sometimes that process gets messy. Mostly because parents were too busy worrying about how their little families appeared to the Joneses than to be bothered with actually raising the kid. It's much easier to ship them off somewhere to be broken down and "fixed" after the parents are the ones that fucked 'em up in the first damn place.
Christ, you "fix" dogs, not kids. :roll:
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I don't see how it could hurt his schooling options any more then wilderness
Would it have an embarrassing social impact? EG: at the country club, talking with the other parents? Was that a consideration?
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My son's issues were not compatible with a psych hospital.
How so? Did you research it (other than what the other shrinks had said)?
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If you think we are "country club" parents, you haven't gotten to know me as well as I thought!
My son chose his own educational path. It had nothing to do with our status as a family or in a social circle.
I know my son and I know how hard he worked to accomplish what he had academically and athletically. Of course I kept that in mind when trying to help him get back on track. Why wouldn't I? Look where he is now? This is HIS path. Why would I have done something to jeopardize it if I didn't have to?
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My son chose his own educational path.
Private schools for the majority of his fundamental education?
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If you think we are "country club" parents, you haven't gotten to know me as well as I thought!
I didn't mean it in a bad way. A lot of parents consider an "embarrassing kid" to be a problem more than the harm a kid does to his/herself. My parents often harped on "do you realize how much you have embarrassed us / brought shame on us!"
The "country club" was just an example of an elite social engagement in which kids are often the topic of converstion (EG: "My kid is in Harvard!!!"..."Well... my kid is in MIT.. so there!"..."so what about your kid Emma..."..."My kid's at a psych hospital down the street").
My son chose his own educational path. It had nothing to do with our status as a family or in a social circle.
I know my son and I know how hard he worked to accomplish what he had academically and athletically. Of course I kept that in mind when trying to help him get back on track. Why wouldn't I? Look where he is now? This is HIS path. Why would I have done something to jeopardize it if I didn't have to?
Well. In retrospect, might your kid have changed on his own with out / impatient therapy?
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A lot of parents consider an "embarrassing kid" to be a problem more than the harm a kid does to his/herself. My parents often harped on "do you realize how much you have embarrassed us / brought shame on us!"
The "country club" was just an example of an elite social engagement in which kids are often the topic of converstion (EG: "My kid is in Harvard!!!"..."Well... my kid is in MIT.. so there!"..."so what about your kid Emma..."..."My kid's at a psych hospital down the street").
Which is exactly how Charly has come across over the years. Here too, but mostly over on ST. Exactly.
Well. In retrospect, might your kid have changed on his own with out / impatient therapy?
She'll never know.
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"The entire process is designed to force your son into disclosing his innermost, private thoughts and then force him to change them to conform with what the program and by extension you think they should be."
That is false, especially in the case of 2N. My son's private thoughts are just that. My son's actions became my business. My son's reasons for these actions were something he needed to work out in therapy. He was able to avoid doing this at home. He wasn't able to avoid it as easily, and chose to engage in therapy, at 2N.
Amazing, you say it isn't true then prove it is true in the same paragraph! The program forces your son to engage in it. It is the same thing. He cannot 'avoid it' like he did at home.
You cannot engage in the sort therapy these programs use without disclosure and/or confession, then accepting their interpretation of it. That is the basis for how these programs work. It is also what makes them immoral. The therapy is coerced. The boy had no choice at all.
Change or we will continue to apply pressure until you do! You can suger coat it any way you want. You can rationalize the hell out of it, but the cold truth still stands. Choice is removed from the equation.
You use the word "needed" as in "he needed." He did not need anything. He could have gone on through his whole life with his issues unresolved. You decided what he "needed."
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Change or we will continue to apply pressure until you do! You can suger coat it any way you want. You can rationalize the hell out of it, but the cold truth still stands. Choice is removed from the equation.
And the lack of choice is exactly what makes it unethical (and incidentally, doomed to failure in the long-run).
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Charly, could you explain how a stay in a hospital psych ward is more detrimental to his education then a wilderness camp?
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My son is much more of an elitist than I am. He readily admits that.
Any psychiatric in-patient treatment has to be disclosed on applications to schools. Not many schools will take that on. Wilderness/Carlbrook preserved his options.
He did not feel wilderness was abusive or that he was forced to change.
Yes, he could have gone through life not working on some of the things that were causing him problems. He could have also continued to be kicked out of schools and off teams, gotten arrested or hurt himself or someone else more seriously than he had up to that point.
He might have changed on his own, and probably did a lot of the changing ON his own (Carlbrook and beyond). However, he couldn't stay at home. Nothing was changing there.
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My son is much more of an elitist than I am. He readily admits that.
Any psychiatric in-patient treatment has to be disclosed on applications to schools. Not many schools will take that on.
To me, it seems a bit like this: I get into a car crash. I don't want the crash to look bad on my insurance, so i go and get it fixed at a dodgy car repair facility where the fixing will never show up on carreports.com (thereby preserving the resale value).
Of course by doing something like that, I take the risk that, due to the crappy labor, the wheels just might pop off at some point, killing a myriad of bystanders, pets, and hopefully an ed-con or two.
Next time i go see the head-shrinker i'm going to ask him about program alternatives. Hopefully he has a few ideas.
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My son is much more of an elitist than I am. He readily admits that.
Did he attend private schools for the majority of his fundamental education?
He did not feel wilderness was abusive or that he was forced to change.
Of course not, He believes it helped him "reveal" or "discover" his "true self" or "potential" (god I fucking HATED that word, still do). It "challenged" him to "dig deep", right? Yep, me too once upon a time.
Yes, he could have gone through life not working on some of the things that were causing him problems. He could have also continued to be kicked out of schools and off teams, gotten arrested or hurt himself or someone else more seriously than he had up to that point.
He might have changed on his own, and probably did a lot of the changing ON his own (Carlbrook and beyond). However, he couldn't stay at home. Nothing was changing there.
And now it sounds like you have exactly what you paid for. Another elitist, silver spoon kid who'll no doubt grow into the proper corporate whore you've raised him to be with an ulcer and a heart attack by 40.
Congrats on your new and improved kid. :roll:
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Of course not, He believes it helped him "reveal" or "discover" his "true self" or "potential" (god I fucking HATED that word, still do). It "challenged" him to "dig deep", right? Yep, me too once upon a time.
I know exactly what you mean. That's why i asked her to ask her kid if he feels as if he became a "new person" or found his "true self". Apparantly, his answer was no. He's very physically fit and i'm not sure if wilderness was able to put the same type of pressure on him they might have been able to put on others.
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Yes, he went to private school for all his schooling. Public schools were terrible where we lived. I wanted my kids to have the best education possible. They both appreciate it.
I doubt that he'll be a corporate whore. He's shooting a little higher than that. I don't think ulcers or heart attacks are in his future, either.
Thanks, he did improve a lot!
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My son is much more of an elitist than I am. He readily admits that.
Any psychiatric in-patient treatment has to be disclosed on applications to schools. Not many schools will take that on. Wilderness/Carlbrook preserved his options.
How did Wilderness preserve his options? I ask because most schools ask have you received psychiatric therapy or psychological counseling, which he did receive in Wilderness and Carlbrook.
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Yes, he went to private school for all his schooling. Public schools were terrible where we lived. I wanted my kids to have the best education possible.
Surprise, surprise, surprise! :roll:
They both appreciate it.
They don't know anything else. They've been groomed for what you want for their lives and convinced them it was their idea. This kid never had a chance. You made sure of that.
Lady, it's people like you that scare the shit out of me and make me fear for the future of civilization.
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My son is much more of an elitist than I am. He readily admits that.
Any psychiatric in-patient treatment has to be disclosed on applications to schools. Not many schools will take that on. Wilderness/Carlbrook preserved his options.
How did Wilderness preserve his options? I ask because most schools ask have you received psychiatric therapy or psychological counseling, which he did receive in Wilderness and Carlbrook.
That's just it. they "fix" the problems. Just not officially. See the car analogy. Why do most programs call themselves "emotional growth" or whatnot?
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So karen does your kid thank you for sending him away?
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He did not feel wilderness was abusive or that he was forced to change.
Yes, he could have gone through life not working on some of the things that were causing him problems. He could have also continued to be kicked out of schools and off teams, gotten arrested or hurt himself or someone else more seriously than he had up to that point.
He might have changed on his own, and probably did a lot of the changing ON his own (Carlbrook and beyond). However, he couldn't stay at home. Nothing was changing there.
Glad to hear he feels he feels he wasn't forced.
The difference between my parents and you is that my Dad once told me, and I am paraphrasing, "All a parent can do is set a good example and teach their kids right from wrong as best they can. It is ultimately up to the kid what they do with that." My Dad was all about free choice and against any kind of 'blame the parent' mentality. If I had failed at life and tried to pin it on his lack of intervention, he would never have accepted that. At the same time, he would not have intervened much had I taken a 'wrong turn' either. My Dad always gave me good advice, but only when I asked him for it. We had few rules in the house and my friends always had more rules and restrictions than I did. I guess you could say he practiced a 'hands-off' approach to parenting. Thanks Dad.
For me, It's all about free will, and I guess I get that from my Dad. That's why I object to these coercive programs. It is every individual's right to chose their own path in life. Even if those choices lead to disaster.
Yes, your son could have gotten kicked out of more schools and off of more teams and that would have been his problem, not yours, and his choice, not yours. Maybe eventually, he would have wised up and sought help, on is own volition.
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Because emotional growth is quackery, and because its not real therapy and has no goals, measurable anything, or quantified... well, anything at all, you can freely say it provides emotional growth and you're not required to prove or explain that its anything at all, so you can easily fool gullible twits with it?
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Isn't psychiatric hospitalizations considered medical records, which are confidential? I am not suggesting Karens son needed psych hospital, sounds like definitely not. I am just curious about privacy laws and such.
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He appreciates what we did for him- yes, that means wilderness. He isn't particularly thankful about Carlbrook, but he knows it allowed him to get to his next school.
It seems really difficult for you to accept that he knows he was out of control and couldn't stay at home. He wasn't abused. I feel terrible for those of you who were, or whose parents made poor choices for you. I really do.
My son thought Second Nature was a good program and did him a lot of good. He wanted to go back. He did go back. Of course he would have rather been back in his old school, but it wasn't an option. They wouldn't take him back. Nor would any other school he wanted to attend. UNTIL he put in some time at Carlbrook. Our original intent was that he would complete the Carlbrook program and then go to college. That turned out not to be the right thing for him, due to some things unique to him and some things about the Carlbrook program. He left there after 9 months.
He writes to one of the senior staff members in Latin. He made a lot of friends. He moved on.
You think private school is a bad thing? I can't imagine how bored and frustrated he would have been in public school.
I don't have to live through my kids. I have enough personal success of my own. When my kids applied to college, I would have been fine with whatever they chose. I'm proud of my kids.
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Atomic Ant- The problem is- he could not do whatever he wanted and make whatever choices he wanted while he was 16 and harming other people. Parents are responsible for a 16 year old. We loved him and wanted to help him and protect him. He could not continue what he was doing. After we did everything we could, and he turned 18, if he wanted to go out on his own, flip burgers or whatever, that was fine. Instead what he wanted was two years at a prep boarding school and a good college education.
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You think private school is a bad thing? I can't imagine how bored and frustrated he would have been in public school.
I didn't say private school was a bad thing. I went for the first 8 years of my education. Parents who place the kind of importance on "schools" the way that YOU seem to are a bad thing.
I don't have to live through my kids. I have enough personal success of my own.
Yes, I know. You're a lawyer. :roll: But you seem preoccupied with the status and level of success your son will achieve.
When my kids applied to college, I would have been fine with whatever they chose. I'm proud of my kids.
What if they had chosen NOT to go to college at all? What if they had chosen no higher education?
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After we did everything we could, and he turned 18, if he wanted to go out on his own, flip burgers or whatever, that was fine. Instead what he wanted was two years at a prep boarding school and a good college education.
He wanted that after a lifetime of private schools, boarding schools, therapeutic schools, emotional growth schools. How could he have any idea what he wanted? You programmed him from birth for "success".
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What if they had chosen NOT to go to college at all? What if they had chosen no higher education?
Because he's an elitist, remember?
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My son's issues were not compatible with a psych hospital.
Mine had bona-fide, diagnosed mental health issues that were being treated on an outpatient basis. When his substance abuse issues became genuinely frightening, we tried to check him into in-patient detox/rehab locally and he was 100% willing and wanted help at that point. They wouldn't take him because of "dual diagnosis." They were only in business to deal with substance abuse, not multiple problems. But his mental health issues were being treated with drugs & therapy and seemed to be pretty well under control -- it was the extreme substance abuse, which most likely began as a symptom of the other issues (before they were treated) that really needed attention. Fucking useless morons with fancy degrees!
When your kid says, "dad I want to stop, I don't want to keep living like this, but I don't know how," and when you're thinking that maybe you won't be there to rush him to the ER next time he comes too close to the edge, then you start to get desperate. When 12-step meetings turn out to be bullshit, and when the IOP turns out to be just a way to meet new dealers and develop new addictions to drugs he hadn't done yet, as a parent who loves your kid more than anything, you start to lose it. You start to think that maybe some really radical things might be in order.
And you become easy prey for The Industry.
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You programmed him from birth for "success".
Thats the feeling I was getting too. It's the norm in that particular slice of american culture.
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There wasn't much chance of that. Both of them were always very motivated students. If they had not been, that would have been fine, too.
I'm not preoccupied with what they achieve. However, I know that they are very motivated and very interested in being around like-minded peers. This meant smart and motivated peers. My son, in particular, can't stand stupid people. You are free to attribute this to me pushing them, but it isn't the case. If anything, I had to dial them down a little so they didn't take on too much.
Being a lawyer is probably the least of what I believe I have personally achieved. That's not how I define myself and I hope my kids don't define themselves by their professions- well, maybe my daughter should.
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We gave him the OPPORTUNITY for success. You can't program a kid, despite what you might think. If you could, I sure did a bad job of it! He got kicked out of pre-school!
If giving a smart, talented kid all the opportunities you can provide is a bad thing, I plead guilty.
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Do you feel an elitist/arrogant attitude is a good thing, or was that part of the reason you sent him to the program? Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like you say that as a badge of honor or something.
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If giving a smart, talented kid all the opportunities you can provide is a bad thing, I plead guilty.
Well I think the concern is that kids start getting defined by their accomplishments, which are relatively meaningless in the whole scheme of things but take on an exagerated meaning. The whole kids killing themselves over grades phenomenon thing.
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No, the elitist/arrogant attitude has been a problem for him for some time, and is some of what led to believing he didn't have to follow school, family or governmental rules. I don't think it is a good thing and he still is working on it. It is not a trait his other family members have. He knows it offends a lot of people, but for some reason, a lot of his peers put up with it. It made Carlbrook staff crazy.
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There wasn't much chance of that. Both of them were always very motivated students.
Groomed.
If they had not been, that would have been fine, too.
Oh, please. Who are you kidding? We've read your crap for the past few years and are fully aware of how important your kids' success is to you.
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No, the elitist/arrogant attitude has been a problem for him for some time, and is some of what led to believing he didn't have to follow school, family or governmental rules. I don't think it is a good thing and he still is working on it. It is not a trait his other family members have. He knows it offends a lot of people, but for some reason, a lot of his peers put up with it. It made Carlbrook staff crazy.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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When your kid says, "dad I want to stop, I don't want to keep living like this, but I don't know how," and when you're thinking that maybe you won't be there to rush him to the ER next time he comes too close to the edge, then you start to get desperate.
Is that you, dad? :rofl: I had to finally make that shameful admission too with nowhere else to go, ended up spending a week in the hospital for heart valve damage, and so began my year long adventure in the teen help industry. When I got out of the hospital, the doctor gave me a prescription to valium and suggested NA meetings. :roll: :P
I agree that the complete lack of options is one reason why this industry is thriving. But the majority the kids I met in private programs had minor issues and never even tried anything other than pot. It really made me wonder.
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Grades- that's the thing. That is NOT his motivation. He was fortunate to graduate from a high school that emphasized learning for its own sake. Reading the NY Times and Wall Street Journal every day were considered just as important as classroom work. Going to lectures and discussing philosophy with peers was valued strongly. It wasn't about grades.
If this is grooming, so be it. The result is a kid who loves to learn and has lots of interests. He uses his writing skills for such things as winning the school history prize AND publishing an article on "Twenty Signs that You Have a Drinking Problem". (as you are aware)
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Reading the NY Times and Wall Street Journal every day were considered just as important as classroom work.
:roll: :roll:
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My son is much more of an elitist than I am. He readily admits that.
Any psychiatric in-patient treatment has to be disclosed on applications to schools. Not many schools will take that on. Wilderness/Carlbrook preserved his options.
I sorry but I have to re-ask this one, I'm truly curious......
How did Wilderness preserve his options? I ask because most schools ask have you received psychiatric therapy or psychological counseling, which he did receive in Wilderness and Carlbrook.
@70's If you don't mind could you say what mental illness your son suffers with, it can be through pm if you don't want it on this thread.
Also did you want the detox to treat his mental illness or just the drug problem? I'm not talking about a detox program I mean the psych ward, and no you don't have to be crazy or suffer with mental illness to be put in one.
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My kids' HAPPINESS is important to me, as well as their safety. If they want to achieve success in one or more areas, I will do everything I can to give them the chance.
This isn't about my kids, though. So- enough on that.
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hanzo- Wilderness was a summer deal, so not much about it had to go on any transcript. The answer to counseling had to be "yes", of course, with a brief description of the issues. Carlbrook did well with all that in his recs for the next school (s). He did not receive psychiatric treatment- no meds were prescribed. It all fit under "counseling".
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This isn't about my kids, though.
Admitting the problem can begin the healing. Congratulations on your first step. It's not about your kids, hasn't ever been about your kids. It's about you. It's all about you. It always has been about you.
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hanzo- Wilderness was a summer deal, so not much about it had to go on any transcript. The answer to counseling had to be "yes", of course, with a brief description of the issues. Carlbrook did well with all that in his recs for the next school (s). He did not receive psychiatric treatment- no meds were prescribed. It all fit under "counseling".
Which is how they get away with all that they do. When it suits them, they're "therapeutic". When it doesn't, it's "emotional growth". Semanitcs. It's the same fucking shit, slightly different wrapper.
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70sPunk Rebel and the student who suffered the heart valve damage both make valid points:
This industry does thrive when parents become desparate,, and fear for their child's life.
And this is not the "dead-or-in-jail" slogan they are expressing. This is actual fear.
Luckily this father's son came home from his wilderness program and is doing good. The student completed the "long year in the industry program."
BOTH still wonder what could and can be done better?
That was the question asked by PSY....and that is what parents seeking help here need answers to.
The answer is not a program; but somehow we must be prepared to offer alternatives that the parents who come here will listen to.
I
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The answer is not a program; but somehow we must be prepared to offer alternatives that the parents who come here will listen to.
Yeah for me it was finally getting out of my parents house.
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hanzo- Wilderness was a summer deal, so not much about it had to go on any transcript. The answer to counseling had to be "yes", of course, with a brief description of the issues. Carlbrook did well with all that in his recs for the next school (s). He did not receive psychiatric treatment- no meds were prescribed. It all fit under "counseling".
Ok, it would be the same in psych unit.... They don't make you take meds, although they might suggest it. I don't see how counseling or even psychiatric therapy(which he did not receive) would hurt his chances of getting into a good school, didn't hurt my chances. If you know different let me know...
Also wilderness camp is not a summer camp it's an inpatient facility like programs and psych wards
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70sPunk Rebel and the student who suffered the heart valve damage both make valid points:
This industry does thrive when parents become desparate,, and fear for their child's life.
And this is not the "dead-or-in-jail" slogan they are expressing. This is actual fear.
Luckily this father's son came home from his wilderness program and is doing good. The student completed the "long year in the industry program."
BOTH still wonder what could and can be done better?
That was the question asked by PSY....and that is what parents seeking help here need answers to.
The answer is not a program; but somehow we must be prepared to offer alternatives that the parents who come here will listen to.
I
Thank you, wise Guest. You're right, the answer is not a program. But sadly, the answer is not necessarily "community-based treatment" and "tough it out with the kid at home" either. Every individual person and family needs to find a path that works for them, and there is no such thing as "one size fits all" treatment. I have talked to lots of advocates about this, and have not yet found any good solutions to recommend to other struggling parents.
As I've said before, we got lucky. Lucky that he feels he was not abused in any way in the wilderness (I'm a little more skeptical, considering the psychological coercion applied), lucky that he is doing well now emotionally and that he seems to have a much better understanding of how his particular substance abuse behaviors related to his depression and quasi-suicidal tendencies. He has found something to live for, and "found his way" in the world. Wilderness may or may not have had anything to do with that, other than the fact that for better or worse, it was part of his journey. A well-known advocate told me "sorry you wasted your money" on wilderness, and my son's current therapist pretty much feels the same way. At this point, I can only be thankful that he's here now, happy and doing well, and so far the only damage seems to have been to my bank account, which will survive. The great thing about money is you can always make more.
My son freely admits that part of what he did out there was "walk the walk and talk the talk" just to get through it and do what was expected, with the immediate end-goal of "let me go home and don't send me to some fucking TBS like some of these other kids are getting sent to." He accomplished that, but he also accomplished a lot more. That was him responding to the situation he found himself in, and thinking about all the things that got him there, not some magic unproven therapeutic methods.
I will say though, that he thinks he got a lot more out of the dialogs he had with the field staffers -- the young fuckups with "7 days of training" (to quote TSW) -- than he did with the licensed therapists. Even though the 12-steps may be bogus, I do think there is some value in addicts helping other addicts. To be fair, not all of the field staffers were former substance abusers that had attended the wilderness program, but many of them were exactly that.
I will also say I was alarmed at the kids I met there (and the others my son told me about) who "really didn't need to be there." Not that my kid deserved to be there, but he truly understood why we took such a drastic step, and also understood that he was very prepared physically and by past experience for an intense survival experience. The same cannot be said for some of the other teens he met there. "What were their parents thinking?" he wondered about some of them.
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That's interesting, since I have really good insurance and they wouldn't pay fuck-all for this quack therapy. Not that I really expected them to, but hey it's worth a try. As for fucking off in Europe, that would've been a waste of time and money. I didn't sleep much the whole time he was gone. I used to fly around on Google Earth in the mountains I knew he was in, wondering where he was, what he was doing, was he hungry, tired, and all of that. I wrote to him about that in a letter and he later told me he really appreciated it. Of course, what he appreciated a lot more was the letter that said "I don't care what your therapists say, you're not going to a TBS, you're coming home with us."
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In retrospect, we might have done as well or better with a couple of 3-grand-apiece Outward Bound trips. It would've been peanuts compared to what we spent, and we would've had the opportunity to experience it with him.
On the other hand, Outward Bound killed a couple people this summer, so they aren't necessarily so great either. We've done pretty well with our own private wilderness excursions, but those didn't include "therapy." Then again, maybe they did and we just didn't know it. Or maybe they did include it just as much or as little as the official Program.
Our next excursion to Utah will be for a skiing/snowboarding trip in a month or so. I jokingly said "hey you can walk up the mountain just like in the wilderness program," and he politely said "fuck you Dad, you can buy me a lift ticket." I take it as a positive sign that now we can joke about his wilderness experience. Like when we hiked in the mountains a couple days ago and found ourselves in a place we thought would be an awesome campsite to come back to in warmer weather. I said something like, "hey, you can build a bow-drill fire and we'll have an awesome time here." He whipped out his Bic lighter and lit a cigarette and said, "why would I use a bow drill when I've got one of these?"
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But it's a tough thing to do when I smoke too. The "do as I say not as I do" method of parenting never worked very well when my parents raised me, and I never thought it would work very well on my kids either.
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That's the best suggestion I have for anyone. Take the money you were going to spend on a program and take a backpacking trip through Europe, or a barefoot cruise where you actually learn to sail, or a 2 month long road trip across America.
There is no single answer. Every kid and every family is different and they have to find out what works for them. Trouble is in this culture of insta-fix, pop a pill if you're down bullshit it's hard to convince people to just get back to the basics of actually raising a family.
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But it's a tough thing to do when I smoke too. The "do as I say not as I do" method of parenting never worked very well when my parents raised me, and I never thought it would work very well on my kids either.
The most disturbing post I've seen on this thread. I've seen too many people die horrible smoking relating deaths. My Dad has oxygen tubes in his nose as we speak and cannot cross a room without getting winded. He smoked since he was a teen. Both my parents smoked. My Mom died of cancer. It took a year of hell to kill her.
I never smoked. Always the rebel, me.
Something you and your kid can do together for the new year. Quit.
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I don't get it - these two parents clearly aren't stupid yet they persist in trying to prove a negative.
As I said earlier, if these two are going to continue trying to sell Fornits readers on the idea that WT is a safe and effective treatment modality, then Fornits needs to seriously think about charging them an advertising fee. I recommend charging by-the-word as opposed to a flat rate since both parents appear to be extremely verbose and err ... blessed with an inordinate amount of free time.
How about it? 10 cents a word sound fair enough?
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I don't think many people are going to read through a 2000 post thread...
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As I said earlier, if these two are going to continue trying to sell Fornits readers on the idea that WT is a safe and effective treatment modality,
They're not. They're trying to convince themselves. That's what this is really all about. Doesn't matter. I honestly think this is one of the most productive threads in a long time. Karen has simply fulfulled the role of devil's advocate and proven to anyone with even a smidge of critical thinking skills that has been reading, that these places are fucked. Everyone (especially Psy) has done an excellent job in seizing the opportunity. There are a lot of lurking parents who have some of the same questions or arguments that Karen has and to see them countered time and time again with calm, rational and logical statements of personal experience and research makes a difference. It did in the HLA forum, it is in the Hyde forum, it's been happening in the Carlbrook thread and many more. These places all run on the same basic premise. Break the kid down, build them up. Some may be more severe than others, but its all the same when you get right down to it. That's OK for some people (Karen)...the end justifies the means, but not for most compassionate people whose true interest is in the child, not how the child reflects on them.
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70's admits that sending his son to WT was a gamble and that he's lucky because his kid appears to be unharmed. Hardly an endorsement of wilderness therapy. Charly is discussing the issue from a parents point of view, I feel that this is a good thing because it helps us understand the rational of program parents(no offense Charly). She also provides us with questions from the desperate parents point of view, like a lack of alternatives.
I know it just seems like useless back and forth but this is the way of civil discourse
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I don't think many people are going to read through a 2000 post thread...
Very true - especially if there aren't any pictures.
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Charly is discussing the issue from a parents point of view, I feel that this is a good thing because it helps us understand the rational of program parents(no offense Charly).
Yep, exactly. I don't think she realizes how helpful she's been, just not in the way she intended.
Thanks Karen. :D
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I don't think many people are going to read through a 2000 post thread...
Very true - especially if there aren't any pictures.
This thread is useless without.....oh, wait. Wrong site.
/Farker
//yay slashies!
::bwahaha::
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Hmmm. Civil discourse. Sounds like a behavioral disorder. But yeah, I get your point. Just wish the two program apologists had more to say than the same old song and dance. This shit gets old, ya know!
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Well, you're all right about several things:
This thread is too long.
Nobody besides a few Fornits regulars will have even read this far.
Programs suck.
My son and I should quit smoking.
I have too much time on my hands. But that will change soon, since vacation is over and I have to be at work in 8 hours.
Oh, and one other thing: there has got to be a better way to deal with real life problems than the bullshit solutions we tried locally and the bullshit solution we tried with the Troubled Teen industry.
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No, the elitist/arrogant attitude has been a problem for him for some time, and is some of what led to believing he didn't have to follow school, family or governmental rules. I don't think it is a good thing and he still is working on it. It is not a trait his other family members have. He knows it offends a lot of people, but for some reason, a lot of his peers put up with it. It made Carlbrook staff crazy.
I wonder if in the case of Carlbrook what he objected to were rules which did not have any logical point. Adults have to follow rules largely so that others dont get hurt. But they dont get "banned" from reading or making particular friendships, or have to confess their most shameful things to people they just met.
To an extent i get why the parent of a kid who is mildly criminal eg stealing, involved in vandalism, stealing the family car is concerned about the idea that their kid lacks respect for others property. It is also difficult to teach a kid about this when you are reasonably affluent. But it is not as if either wilderness or TBS is morally pure on this score given the amount of profit it makes from families in crisis. A reasonably smart kid must be able to figure this out. If anything if i were one of these kids the first thought toward my minders would be that my behaviour is paying your wages so go fuck yourself you 2 bit facist.
I would sooner see my kids be made to do some kind of volunteer work which forced them to learn something about the wider world, and the genuine hardships that people go through by being made do something humanitarian. How can any kid be expected to learn empathy if they are in a place which is designed to continually dwell on all that is wrong with them until they either become hardened or in need of rebuilding?
ZTo charlie- if you had your time over with your son what would you do differently to teach him the empathy you feel he lacked?
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I wonder when Karen is gonna try another three-peat of her attempts at justification and yet again ignore what we've brought to everyone's attention, more than once :roll:
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I have looked at their site and I can see, that it is mandatory for the child to be on at wilderness course. They even recommend one.
Do they however set some standards towards the quality of the wilderness course? (Length, therapy, time gap between wilderness and school, licensed staff etc.)
Does anyone have some papers about the level system or honor of code, as they call the rules which could be skipped off to Denmark?
That about consequenses = punishment. Does anyone have a list on paper?
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Is it true that Karen had some work done on her tits? I'm just curious.
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Really? I thought she went in for a cranio-rectal displasia procedure.
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Well there WAS that... we all knew that...
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Yeah, seems like it took a few months to complete.
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You'd think it would be an easy switch? :D
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Hey. You.
To the shed. Now. :roll:
Will they EVER learn?
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Would Karen's ass be worthy of a good ass-whoopin'? :rofl:
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I'm not even gonna touch THAT one :o
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I think Karen could use a good ol' fashioned bullwhipping. ::hehehmm::
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the young fuckups with "7 days of training" (to quote TSW) -- than he did with the licensed therapists. Even though the 12-steps may be bogus, I do think there is some value in addicts helping other addicts.
Experience can compliment, but is no substitute for qualification. For all the "wisdom" these fuck-ups learned in their drug-addled existence, they generally have an equal compliment of problems. Without knowledge of or training in psychology, these staff members can wreak a lot of havoc on kid's psyches without a clue of the lasting damage they are causing.
The staff at SN seem to have degrees, but their prior jobs at Aspen schools make me wonder as to what else they might have been incorporating into their "treatment" of the kids.
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But it is not as if either wilderness or TBS is morally pure on this score given the amount of profit it makes from families in crisis. A reasonably smart kid must be able to figure this out.
That is precisely what made me snap out of the brainwashing. I was like "Wait.... you want me to be moral and honest and... hmmm... something doesn't fit here..."
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I think Karen could use a good ol' fashioned bullwhipping. ::hehehmm::
Oooohhh I'm getting hot just thinking about it... ::bwahaha2::
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Yeah. TSW. You're right. It creeps me out.
In contrast to standard outpatient therapy, people experience the wilderness as if it were a dream - as an unconsidered experience full of unusual visceral stimuli and habitual reaction. Experiential therapy moves a step beyond Cognitive-Behavioral methods by circumventing conscious resistance.
Big big big big red flag. "circumventing conscious resistance"!??!?!?! Anybody else care to explain what this means. ::puke::
In brief. It means: influencing your kid at an other than conscious level.
Later, the past is laid before the individual as a metaphor for safe reflection and evaluation. This treatment method works exceedingly well with ?guarded? or cynical students because the environment requires interaction and supports existing strengths while strengthening weaknesses.
In other words: We can brainwash your kid no matter how well guarded he is.
This is thought reform people. NOT therapy. If it "works" it's still unethical.
Btw Karen. You never did answer this question: What would you consider to be unethical means of coercion?
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Alot of parents find that they can scam their insurance companies into paying for a "treatment" program like Second Nature or SUWS so they can fuck off to Europe on vacation.
Yup. That was my dad. 2.5 years at $3K+ a month. Have no idea how he managed to pull that one off, but he's good at finding loopholes, since he's a lawyer. Got out of having to go to Vietnam, too, despite being a Westpointer.
Any program that has a manditory 12 step program shows a huge red flag
Absolutely, especially, since as you said, that even if someone is court ordered to attend 12 step, they are not required to participate. However, if it is part of a program, it is hardly consentual, like it is in the public sector. I would venture to say that this is even the case for adults who are sentenced to a rehab facility that uses 12 step over jail. In that environment, there is a certain level of requiring to comply before you will be released. (but not as much as a program, I would think.) Fortunately, a lot of rehabs, from what I've heard, are moving away from the 12 step model. One of the biggest issues with me regarding 12 step is the religion. Even though the general understanding of "god" is flexible, it's still there. You can't move beyond the second step without it. You are required to believe in god, or at least a god. That's bullshit.
I mean, look, it's one thing if someone decides to check themselves in, ok? But if someone is sent to a 12 step facility by the courts, then fuck yeah, I have a problem with it. I mentioned in another thread about how there were a couple of people I knew who decided to take the jail term over rehab, because they knew they were going to have to deal with 12 step in a residential setting if they didn't.
I'm also not exactly sure who thought it was such a brilliant idea to stick a bunch of junkies and drunks together and assume that they would be good at keeping each other sober. (Bill W., I'm assuming.) Not like it's another person's job to help keep someone sober, anyway. It's nobody's fucking business. That's the other problem with 12 step, and the TC industry as a whole.
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I'm also not exactly sure who thought it was such a brilliant idea to stick a bunch of junkies and drunks together and assume that they would be good at keeping each other sober. (Bill W., I'm assuming.) Not like it's another person's job to help keep someone sober, anyway. It's nobody's fucking business. That's the other problem with 12 step, and the TC industry as a whole.
biopychosocial model synanon should be a good keyword search for you to do.
I believe this model is mirrored at Second nature.
*edited due to excessive beer consumption. Fuck I love my days off.
Right, but didnt AA precede synanon?
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What's wrong with going to AA?
Providing it means the same there as it does here - AA has helped many many 'hopeless' alcoholics become recovering alcoholics rather than dead people
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Well i don't need to really, I've had a lot to do with AA over the years & they've done a lot of good for those who want to help themselves
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Well i don't need to really, I've had a lot to do with AA over the years & they've done a lot of good for those who want to help themselves
key praise here: "those who want to help themselves"
AA works yes, but it should only be used as a last resort (even they say this).
Why? Because you never are "cured" with AA, just "recovering". It creates a dependency on a group rather than a drug. It's less harmful arguably, but it's just a "healthy" substitute.
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AA, NA, OA, MA, CA, GA, SA.. any im forgetting? (im sure i am)
So how many you been to?
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AA, NA, OA, MA, CA, GA, SA.. any im forgetting? (im sure i am)
So how many you been to?
Well at Benchmark we were forced to attend meetings regardless of whether we had substance issues or not. We were encouraged, however, not to "share"....
Let's see. I've been to AA, NA, CA (cocaine anonymous). It's all the same shit though. All they do is change the word "alcohol" to whatever the issue is.
The program staff were convinced... convinced... that anything at all could be cured with the twelve steps. ADHD, anxiety, depression, cutting, anything.. all you had to do was give in to the program... *tick* give *tock* into *tick* the *tock* program *tick*... etc...
I think most people on this site would not be so anti-AA if they knew what the actual meetings were like. There is a big big difference between AA and synanon/cedu/est/lifespring/wwasp/generic mindfuck...
That being said, if i were a smack/coke/meth addict, given a choice between AA, and death, I would choose death. Call me a control freak but i don't like the idea of giving my autonomy over to a group or a sponsor.
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12 Steps To Hell: By Jim Goad
1. We admitted that our addictions were fucking us up.
2. Came to believe that since we started them, only we could stop them.
3. Made a decision to follow our gut instincts as we understood them.
4. Didn't bullshit ourselves about our many flaws.
5. Having admitted our flaws, we kept them to ourselves - they're nobody else's business.
6. Were entirely ready to argue with anyone who disagreed.
7. Filled with self-respect, we did nothing humbly.
8. Made a list of all the persons we had harmed and realized that most of them deserved it.
9. Paid all our police fines, then burned all our bridges.
10. Continued to be ruthlessly honest with ourselves and admitted all our wrongs - to ourselves.
11. Trusted ourselves and only ourselves with what's best for us.
12. Having assumed full responsibility for our lives, we weren't foolish enough to try to change everyone else - first, it's a losing proposition, and second, we couldn't care less.
What saved me (besides practical considerations) was the act of banishing from my mind the idea that I needed my addictions. That's all. I don't need alcohol, I don't need dope, I don't need other's support, and I sure as fuck don't need a goddamned chip!
- Jim Goad
Look, if someone voluntarily goes to 12 step, and it works for them, fine, great, good for them. My issue is when it is forced on someone via a program, or through court-ordered residential treatment.
I think most people on this site would not be so anti-AA if they knew what the actual meetings were like. There is a big big difference between AA and synanon/cedu/est/lifespring/wwasp/generic mindfuck...
I've been in 12 step, too, and I agree. It's like apples and oldsmobiles. I'm not anti-AA as much as I am simply an advocate of the fact that someone's decision to use or not use drugs or alcohol is nobody else's fucking business. Well... I am anti-bullshit, so I guess if that makes me anti 12 step... so be it.
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That being said, if i were a smack/coke/meth addict, given a choice between AA, and death, I would choose death. Call me a control freak but i don't like the idea of giving my autonomy over to a group or a sponsor.
It's just an informal meeting, nothing signed, charged or expected of attendees. If people don't have anything to lose they are willing to try anything. Sometimes all they need is a new friend.
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AA is a bunch of collective fruitcakes, but they can't force you to sit through an entire meeting.
You gotta go high or drunk for meetings to make any sense.
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I personally am completely against the 12 step system in programs. It is another fraud perpetuated by the TBS program to bilk well meaning people out their money and even more precious time with their children. Any program that has a manditory 12 step program shows a huge red flag. It avoids the responsibility of hiring appropriately trained and qualified drug and alcohol counselors.
It's so deeply entrenched in this industry, it's not going away any time soon. Every treatment center uses the 12 step model, from psychiatric hospitals all the way down to wilderness programs. Everyone is an addict, get with it already man. We are diseased!
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Does anyone have any links to first person reports by former students reporting abuse or negative experiences at SNWP or Carlbrook? Thanks.
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I Doubt that you'll find any reports regarding carlbrook or second nature. However that does not mean that the two programs are safe. The best thing for you to do in any absents of reports is to compare the program to other abusive programs. Here's a link to 10 good questions (http://http://www.helpatanycost.com/questions.php) to ask any program that you're considering getting involved with. In this thread you can find opinions of program survivors on the two programs. I think that most agree that both programs use thought reform tactics which are abusive, but I encourage you to ask any questions that you have so that you can make up your own mind.
P.S. Don't be shy, setup a user account :D
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Does anyone have any links to first person reports by former students reporting abuse or negative experiences at SNWP or Carlbrook? Thanks.
Can't give you that specifically, since I never went, but earlier in this thread (much earlier) there was talk about where some of the Carlbrook staff have come from. Tim Brace is dean of students. He used to work for CEDU. I knew him. He was headmaster when I was there. Not someone I would trust around any kid of mine. Due to the fact that he worked for a cult disguised as a school, if he condones and approves of the kind of "treatment" that is going on at Carlbrook, then that is a huge red flag. It probably jibes with his sensibilities and his severe lack of understanding regarding therapy.
Also, interesting excerpt from a review on Szalavitz's book, (thanks, hanz, for the link.)
Reviewed by Steve K. D. Eichel, Ph.D., ABPP
There is a strong tendency for each older generation to look back at its own adolescence with a mixture of nostalgia and embarrassment, and at each new generation of teens with a combination of fear, disdain and jealousy. Whether we consider the flappers of the 1920s, the beats, protesters and hippies of the ?50s and ?60s, the punks and stoners of the ?70s and ?80s, or the slackers of the ?90s, every generation?s parents insist they have the most ill-mannered, lazy, rebellious, promiscuous, drunken or drug-ridden teenagers ever. And as surely as these teens grow up and have children, they invariably give rise to the next really worst crop of teens, who grow up and birth the truly worst teenagers, and on and on. Just as every new century heralds the apocalypse, every fresh crop of teenagers serves as the harbingers of the fall of Western civilization.
The 1980s saw a dramatic shift in the American zeitgeist. Former hippies and radicals were clamoring to join the same middle class they once abhorred. Having lost faith in big federal social programs, government bureaucracies, and "bleeding heart" psychotherapies, they seemed to welcome an invigorated free market that moved quickly to satisfy their increasing need for quick answers and strong responses to difficult social and family problems like sexual experimentation and drug abuse. If the first half of the 20th century had its juvenile courts, social workers, and Boys Towns, the second half, and especially the last quarter, would have its own set of ?cures? for the common teenager: the ?therapeutic? boot camp and wilderness programs. These programs claimed nearly miraculous effectiveness with the most difficult and destructive adolescent behaviors. By mixing techniques liberally taken from the human-potential movement with old fashioned ?tough love,? they appealed to a generation of parents that came of age in the ?60s but were no longer enamored with free love, mind-expanding drugs, or permissive parenting.
Nice contextualizing, there. (Are you listening, Karen?)
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What's wrong with going to AA?
Providing it means the same there as it does here - AA has helped many many 'hopeless' alcoholics become recovering alcoholics rather than dead people
You forget that AA only helps as many people as doing nothing does - 5%.
Know how we know this?
AA themselves said so! :rofl:
They do absolutely nothing except what doing nothing does, so why do it? Furthermore, they seem to just make people make excuses about how helpless they are wah wah wah. Oh WOE IS ME, but I have LIFESKILLS!!!
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Does anyone have any links to first person reports by former students reporting abuse or negative experiences at SNWP or Carlbrook? Thanks.
Search this site.
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Does anyone have any links to first person reports by former students reporting abuse or negative experiences at SNWP or Carlbrook? Thanks.
Search this site.
Better yet go to google and type in the following search:
Carlbrook site:fornits.com
"Second Nature" OR "2N" OR "SNWP" site:fornits.com
if you use "site:fornits.com" after your google search terms you'll find what you want and it won't stress our the Fornits server (slows the whole site down when somebody uses search). Keep in mind Google's cache of fornits is usually a few days behind though so if it's brand new info you are looking for you will only find it using the search here.[/code]
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AA is a bunch of collective fruitcakes, but they can't force you to sit through an entire meeting.
You gotta go high or drunk for meetings to make any sense.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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What's wrong with going to AA?
Providing it means the same there as it does here - AA has helped many many 'hopeless' alcoholics become recovering alcoholics rather than dead people
You forget that AA only helps as many people as doing nothing does - 5%.
Know how we know this?
AA themselves said so! :rofl:
They do absolutely nothing except what doing nothing does, so why do it? Furthermore, they seem to just make people make excuses about how helpless they are wah wah wah. Oh WOE IS ME, but I have LIFESKILLS!!!
I once dated a girl that wanted me to attend ACOA (adult children of alcoholics) meetings with her. What a bunch of whiny crybabies! Even she said so. She was not in any way an alcoholic, but she liked attending AA meetings better than ACOA meetings because, in her words, "At least the AAers are trying to change something. The ACOAers are just whining about how fucked up they are due to someone elses addiction."
Did you know there is a Clutterer's Anonymous? Yes there is. I swear. I know someone who attended meetings and had their 12 steps cluttering the front of her fridge.
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And then there's the people who go online to whine about the whiners. What shall we call them?
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I love that term: "adult child". WTF is an adult child? What you said: someone who doesn't have the balls to grow the fuck up.
Strangers with Candy did a great spoof on ACOA. It was fucking priceless.
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No matter your age you are always your parents children. I guess they could have named themselves MPAA (My Parents are Alcoholics).
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No matter your age you are always your parents children. I guess they could have named themselves MPAA (My Parents are Alcoholics).
No, I'm not my parents' child. I'm their son.
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Well, since this thread has taken a million turns that have nothing to do with CB or SN, I'd like to add:
My favorite 12-step T-shirt:
"I only attend meetings to meet drunk sluts"
And something personal:
Some of my dad's best friends were drinking buddies he met at AA. That doesn't make them "bad" -- they truly were friends (just not always sober ones).
And today would've been his 70th birthday if he hadn't burned the candle at both ends. I miss you man...
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"I found purpose in the 12-step programs the rehab introduced me to. Today, I have some problems with the way many treatment centers force 12-step ideology on people. I know that there are many whom it doesn't help -- and in this book, we offer a variety of options for recovery. For me, however, at that time, it did the trick. In the 12-step fellowships, I found that I could make friends without having to give them drugs and that I could be loved for who I was without being rich or famous."
-- Maia Szalavitz, "Recovery Options"
The 12 step methodology may be bogus and may be no more effective than doing nothing, but outside of The Programs, at least it's not coercive. It provides an opportunity to make new friends who are going through the same kind of shit you are. Sometimes they might talk you out of doing something really stupid. Sometimes they might just be a shoulder to cry on. And sometimes they will even sit with you at a bar (whether they join you in partaking or not) and just be there for you to talk to when your life is all fucked up. And sometimes when you just say "aw fuck it, I need a serious buzz," they just might join you.
It ain't therapy, it's friendship. Sometimes that really helps...sometimes more than the therapists with their fancy degrees.
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Yes, it can be helpful if you view it purely as a social club and you're not ordered or coerced in any way. A place to hang out with others that aren't drinking. But to give it anything beyond that is dangerous. The steps are dangerous, sponsors are dangerous, the Big Book, 12 and 12.....all of it. It teaches people that they're powerless. It teaches them that "self" and ego are bad things. It tells them that if they don't 'keep coming back' they're 'signing their own death warrants'. Self fulfilling prophecies. Not to mention the billions of tax dollars that are funding 12 step based programs. Actually court ordering people isn't the only way they're coerced either. AA has become so widely accepted as the only or premiere form of treatment that even disagreeing with it's methods can hurt you in a DUI, child custody or other legal actions. Then there's the family pressure on someone with a drinking problem to go to AA or NA or CA or whatever. Hell, they've even gone so far as to create an Adult GRANDchildren of Alcoholics :roll:
AA is nothing more than a cult that preys on vulnerable people. Same as the TT industry, and make no mistake....AA is an industry.
http://www.orange-papers.org/ (http://www.orange-papers.org/)
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Hell, they've even gone so far as to create an Adult GRANDchildren of Alcoholics
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I laughed for about five minutes after reading that.
Good to see he got his site back up.
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Sometimes they might talk you out of doing something really stupid. Sometimes they might just be a shoulder to cry on. And sometimes they will even sit with you at a bar (whether they join you in partaking or not) and just be there for you to talk to when your life is all fucked up. And sometimes when you just say "aw fuck it, I need a serious buzz," they just might join you.
Sometimes they also hook you up with junk so pure that it kills you. Granted, she wanted to go, but her drug of choice before 12 step was speed, she had no idea how to score heroin. So how did she find some, after being clean in 12 step for ten years?
It was her choice, but I know where she scored it from.
Your desire for ?support? is nothing more, and nothing less, than a plan to get loaded in the absence of support.
- Jack Trimpey, Rational Recovery
Thanks for the link to orange-papers.org, anon. I'd never been there before. Much more comprehensive than rational.org. (And it's free.) Trimpey's selling a 4 DVD set for 230 bucks! "Dude, I just spent all of my money on dope, I can't afford that!"
Jack, Jack, Jack, I realize you gotta cover costs and all, but come on, buddy, really. We're druggies, here. It can't possibly cost that much to press 4 DVDs of you talking about the beast coming back. That fucker better have some sweet special features.
Anyway, yeah, this is more irrelevant, non-thread-related shit, but I just had to add, as usual.
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haha. I just discovered a fornits easter egg. I can't believe it took me this long to find it.
you need = I want you
Very funny. Brilliant! I thought I was going nuts at first.
(wonders if there are any more.) hmmmmm.
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I think the biggest danger of AA meetings is lung cancer. Not a lot of old timers left who spent a lot of time outside... :(
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That's what TA is for. :P (Tobacco Anonymous.)
They really should just mash all of it together into one thing, and call it Everything Anonymous. Much easier than having to go to 5 different groups for your 5 different habits.
Step one: We admitted we were powerless over everything.
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I think the biggest danger of AA meetings is lung cancer. Not a lot of old timers left who spent a lot of time outside... :(
:smokin: ::bwahaha:: True.
Thanks for the link to orange-papers.org, anon. I'd never been there before. Much more comprehensive than rational.org. (And it's free.) Trimpey's selling a 4 DVD set for 230 bucks! "Dude, I just spent all of my money on dope, I can't afford that!"
No problem. I've thrown his link up so many times I figured everyone was sick of it by now. PIck any spot in his "letters" section and read. His hate mail is hilarious. He's got a section for the Teen industry too.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-gulags.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-gulags.html)
He gives props to Jack and a few others too. Great guy and his site has been an invaluable resource for me.
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To be fair and return the thread...
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 771#235771 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=235771#235771)
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Much easier than having to go to 5 different groups for your 5 different habits.
I'm up to eight...
Alcoholics Anonymous
Narcotics Anonymous
Cocaine Anonymous
Marijuana Anonymous
Gamblers Anonymous
Sex Addicts Anonymous
Overeaters Anonymous
Tobacco Anonymous
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To be fair and return the thread...
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 771#235771 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=235771#235771)
Damn! Double posted, the first one said it didn't go through but apparently did
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20182 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20182)
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I didn't realise it was compulsory there....in the UK AA is a choice as to wether you go or not, maybe that's why it is so successful here, people go because they want to do something about their problem rather than being forced
It is so true that no one can begin to heal until they are ready to heal & admit there's a problem, forcing anyone is ridiculous, they'll just go through the motions without actually doing anything about it - which in turn imo, will make them wary of attending such meetings when they are ready
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I didn't realise it was compulsory there....in the UK AA is a choice as to wether you go or not, maybe that's why it is so successful here, people go because they want to do something about their problem rather than being forced
It is so true that no one can begin to heal until they are ready to heal & admit there's a problem, forcing anyone is ridiculous, they'll just go through the motions without actually doing anything about it - which in turn imo, will make them wary of attending such meetings when they are ready
The only way that AA is benign is if it is treated as nothing more than a social group. No steps, no sponsors, no Big Book. Go read the Orange Papers site. It really is quite illuminating.
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I have read the orange papers article. I dont see what all the fuss is about/ Like Exhausted I am from a country where people only pursue this sort of thing on a voluntary basis. While i take the point that it can prolly be a little cultic at times so are lots of things- Some religious faiths, amway, undergraduate vegetarians. If adults make the choice to give up the grog for a new addiction, then all power to them.
The key difference in my mind is when this sort of thing is forced on kids who have no choice. particularly when they have had not medical diagnosis.
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Let's move this out of the Carlbrook thread.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20182 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20182)
Did you read Valliant's report? He's the AA Board of Trustees member who found that AA actually increased the death rate of alcoholics. I believe the word he used was appalling.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... ant_deaths (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Vaillant_deaths)
The coercion isn't just through the court system. It's so ingrained and accepted as pretty much the ONLY game in town that medical professionals refer to AA, treatment centers use the 12 Steps and suggest attendance to AA for aftercare. AA tells these people day in and day out that they'll relapse and die if they stop coming to meetings. Sponsors have an inordinate amount of control over their charges. Marriages have broken up because the non-alcoholic spouse rejects AA's teachings and the sponsor tells the newcomer that the wife has now become "toxic" to his recovery. Children end up estranged from parents for the same reason. AA believes that the steps are the solution to all. Many sponsors have told sponsees to discontinue medication saying that it "interferes with their recovery". It's not just the flaky, benign little support group you'd think from how they describe themselves and are obviously perceived.
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This is Karen's son. I just wanted to say that I wouldn't be where I am at today without wilderness therapy and Carlbrook. I was lost, but now I am found. I was going to be dead or in jail, but now I am a successful young man. I know a lot of you disagree with me and want to debate my mother. She tells me all about you guys and this forum and considers you her closest friends. I felt obligated to post my feelings since this forum means so much to her. She always talks about someone called Gookie and says he is titillating. My spirit counselor named bird gave me this poem and I will keep it forever close to my heart. I think you all should read this with an open heart because it changed my life.
One night I dreamed I was walking along the beach with the Lord.
Many scenes from my life flashed across the sky.
In each scene I noticed footprints in the sand.
Sometimes there were two sets of footprints,
other times there were one set of footprints.
This bothered me because I noticed
that during the low periods of my life,
when I was suffering from
anguish, sorrow or defeat,
I could see only one set of footprints.
So I said to the Lord,
?You promised me Lord,
that if I followed you,
you would walk with me always.
But I have noticed that during the most trying periods of my life
there have only been one set of footprints in the sand.
Why, when I needed you most, you have not been there for me??
The Lord replied,
?The times when you have seen only one set of footprints in the sand,is when I carried you.?
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Where's that Troll-o-Meter???
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In your ass?
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I didn't intend to post here again, but I hear the summons.
[troll8]
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Ok, on the off chance that you are who you say you are.....and the even more remote possibility that you're willing to discuss and debate this...
How did this miraculous change occur? Specifically. What are the treatment methods used? Specifically. What do you say about the stories of psychological and emotional abuse? The lack of education provided?
I won't hold my breath.
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Ok, on the off chance that you are who you say you are.....and the even more remote possibility that you're willing to discuss and debate this...
How did this miraculous change occur? Specifically. What are the treatment methods used? Specifically. What do you say about the stories of psychological and emotional abuse? The lack of education provided?
I won't hold my breath.
It ain't him. Karen's kid hated Carlbrook. Ignore the troll...
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Don't do stuff like that or Karen won't come back!!!! ::bangin::
We need her to listen!!
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To the parent who sent me a PM- please send your e-mail again, I did know your son. To the other person who went to Carlbrook on this forum- I don't know how you could've sat through a group and call that peer support. 15 people all yelling at their best friends about how their life is going downhill because they repeatedly don't tuck in their shirt. Somehow this is brought up as a symptom of the greater problem, a teenager's non-conformity with a belief system that they just don't happen to believe in. Having your best friends take your most personal things and throw them out at you in front of 15 people is supportive? Getting yelled at more because of the simple fact that you don't feel like crying? I witnessed that bullshit as well as being involved in it. If you have a problem with someone or something that they're doing, how about you be the strong individual that Carlbrook speaks so much about and confront the person yourself? When I even said something discounting the crazed group mentality, the bite of the beast would turn on me. They would ask why I was so defiant, why I wasn't helping them "rail" this person, how I obviously didn't care. Tough Love? I'm sorry, I didn't know that you show love to people by betraying their trust. I wasn't aware that saying the most fucked up things you could ever say to somebody shows that you love them that much more. Any of you readers who have never experienced a Group Therapy session, I suggest you read Ken Kesey's One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest. It's about as accurate a representation as you will ever find on how ridiculous these sessions are. Under the guise of creating a stronger individual, they strip you of your individuality, making you conform to what they want. Start thinking for yourself and stop repeating the mantras that have been embedded in your heads. You work harder to sell the institution than they do. Who are you trying to prove that it's good to? Why do you care what a bunch of people on a message board that's mostly anti-RTC have to say? If you don't weigh both sides of the equation, you can't give an honest opinion.[ This Message was edited by: Carlbrook Graduate on 2006-02-07 04:00 ]
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ht=#171151 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=171151&highlight=#171151)
It's funny how most of the things being brought up in this forum are things I myself brought up while at Carlbrook... to parents who may send your children to these schools, I challenge you to take the time to do the research on the negative aspects of these programs. The workshops they use (another name for LGAT) have no long-term psychological benefit. In fact, many LGATs have induced psychotic breakdowns. They try to piss you off as much as possible, then make you break down and cry. They are a school. They make large sums of money. Do the math. There are over 100 kids at this school. Each student pays over 100,000 for a 16 month program. Many great regular boarding schools charge this much for about 4 years of school. The average staff member does not make a lot of money. When I was there, they crammed 5 people in a dorm room originally meant for 2 people, yet continued to state that they weren't about the money.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ht=#167519 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=167519&highlight=#167519)
Ha. You don't think I went to Carlbrook? Ask me anything you wish kind sir. Integritas, Amicitia, Animus, Teneo, Veneratio? Who's your hero? What about your truth? Or how about your superhero? No, I know, what's your lie? What about your nightmare? How about you go do some bioenergetics? Go listen to your fucking Mike and the Mechanics, or do you not remember the song it's not easy? I don't know who you are and I honestly don't care. I speak from my experiences and I don't speak for anybody but myself. I say what I saw with my eyes during my incarceration. Yes, I said incarceration. What else do you call a place that the staff is able to withhold and monitor all your communications with family and friends? Where you are monitored by security at night and every window and door has an alarm? Don't try to discredit me because you can't believe the truth.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ht=#169457 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=169457&highlight=#169457)
I understand what selfish parent is saying, but I disagree. Personally, I loved the wilderness. I was told I should've graduated within 4 weeks but my parents didn't decide what they wanted me to do, so I was out there for close to 2 months. Honestly, something like that was good for me. I made a lot of changes. 2 months away from what I was doing was great for me. Not 2 years. You don't know whether or not your child would've grown out of it within 2 years. A lot of the people who went through there still haven't changed a bit. Is the failure or success a reflection on the program or is it a reflection on their maturation process? You have to want to change no matter where you are, whether it's a rehab or therapeutic boarding school. Eventually you're going to realize you want to change or you don't. If you do, you make the effort to do so yourself. You make all the changes yourself. You make all the choices. BTW, I know a lot of families who were forced to sell their houses in order to send their children to Carlbrook. Don't you think that if they really cared for the well-being of the students and their families they'd have a financial aid program? How can a company claim to, and in the words of many Carlbrook staff, "be in the business of helping people" and then tell a family they need to come up with the money no matter what the cost to their lives?[ This Message was edited by: Carlbrook Graduate on 2006-02-02 23:43 ]
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ht=#169639 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=169639&highlight=#169639)
What happened to this forum? I used to come here to actually talk to people and give them my personal experiences with this school as well having a place to maybe get something done. Everyone has gotten carried away with the whole Karen bullshit and you can't find anything of value without sifting through pages of incoherent posts rambling on about this parent named Karen. As someone who takes 2 seconds to actually think about the situation, I can't believe that people are still carrying on with this after 4-5 months. Let's get back on track and actually give people who want to know about Carlbrook a chance to find out. The truth from people who've been there, people who both love and hate it. If not, maybe someone should start a moderated forum somewhere else.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ht=#197658 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=197658&highlight=#197658)
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what a disappointing web thread =(
i am an alumni of the Carlbrook School. I graduated almost two months ago in December of 2005, with the Omicron peer class. i haven't read through this whole thing but it seems like people are debating whether the school can help people or whether it is an abusive lockdown that engages in brainwashing and deceit. the people posting don't sound incredibly open-minded and it feels like people are writing more to take stabs at each other than to actually try to understand the situation, so i'm not sure there's really anything i can write on this page that will be heard. I respect people like Rico (who is a close friend of mine) who have tried to share their experiences on this page.
so why am I writing this. i would rather not get tangled up in this argument, but if anyone out there would like to talk about Carlbrook and hear the opinion of one person, I would be more than willing to share my story. You can contact me via AIM at screenname dangerousdave or via email at [email protected].
I hope you find what you are looking for.
David Korn
December 2005 Carlbrook Alumni
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I haven't read any claims that Carlbrook is abusive in any way.
Our son was not sent away as a punishment. The consequences to him were that he lost a year of freedom, a year of athletics, a year of top schooling. I can't imagine a kid like my son liking any program of this type. No, there was no better alternative, except perhaps Oakley.
He was helped by the staff and by his peers in some ways, and by himself in others. His issues were anger and entitlement. There was some substance abuse but that was not the core issue. He was enmeshed in a really unhealthy relationship with a girl (by his eventual admission). He had been kicked out of school and had no good educational alternative.
A lot of the kids at Carlbrook really like the program. Many of them think the restrictiveness is close to what regular boarding schools are like. My son knew better and resented the lack of cell phones, internet, dating etc.
If there was an alternative to the steps we took, I would have found it. There wasn't.
Look at the post before this they use the word abusive that post was a page before yours Karen.
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You know what the methods used are, and you don't agree with them! Why should anyone engage in the same useless dialogue with you.
What works is the peer support, the counseling and mentoring by an excellent (with a few exceptions) staff, the workshops and the emphasis on self-respect and honesty. What also works are clear consequences for violation of rules. It is a simple system, but it works.
Right to the point. Unless you changed your mind since you posted this you think that the methods used are sound and good. There is no compromise with that position, either you agree with the methods or not.
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Don't do stuff like that or Karen won't come back!!!! ::bangin::
We need her to listen!!
She isn't coming back. She told me she'd had enough. I'm talking to her on IM an email though. She is not as positive about Carlbrook as many people would think (especially after talking to her kid about it).
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LETS SING THE SONG THAT DOES-ENT EEEEEEEND!
:rofl: :rofl:
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Gookie, I think these nimrods come here thinking that they had better damn well put in the word for their side so hopefully people aren't "scared away" by us "disgruntled ex-program druggies" or whatever. They're program pushers, and what we say about their product isn't too flattering.
If it isn't that, then the assholes just like to argue because they have no fucking life? I don't know, go figure...
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Now if she comes around she is more than welcome back. Won't tolerate her bullshit if she is gonna be promoting her little SN and Carlbrook pits as the alternative. If she wants to pull that again there are always more aggresive measures that can be taken against her. Yes I am threatening her with something more than just text based aggression. Yes I will hunt her down, shit in a paper bag, set it on fire, leave it on her stoop, and ring the bell and run.
Nothing like a flaming bag of shit for a woman who talks nothing but total shit.
Classic! :rofl:
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Like I give a shit why they come here. The occasions zonked out programmie is ok with me. Gives us all something to laugh about. Now old Karen was another story. We all know she ain't left. Not by a long shot. Still lurking around as a guest keeping her eyes open.
Know your enemy! ::armed::
I haven't been following the drama too closely, but thought Karen sounds like the typical program parent with her head still up her arse. :rofl:
Yes, zonked-out "programmies" can be quite entertaining at times.. ::bwahaha::
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I am proud of the fact that I owned her so completely. She had no place to run, no place to hide, and no choice but to accept the truth. So she did what she normally does, bails out when things get tought. Just like she bailed out on her kid and shipped him off to cumquatbrook.
I find people like this particularly frustrating to deal with; these sorts bring to mind good ol' Uncle Remus's Tar Baby.. :rofl: :rofl:
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I am talking privately with Karen and I don't think she is going to be too happy about this. Now be good and show Karen your oh face.
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That's more like the Karen we know.
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apologizing for your behavior and saying how disgusted they were with your attitude and behavior. Even saying that you were clearly drunk when you posted.
Who are these squares? :rofl:
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I stopped posting on the thread because your posts were hurtful and degrading. I really have no need to subject myself to that.
Well hey Karen at least you can walk out. You gotta realize the irony of posting something like that, HERE, don't you? :roll:
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Yeah I know.. Didn't realize we had so many programmie apologist on the forums.
Karen came back with a new strategy of divide and conquer and it seems to be working with some. The truce was a farce. The ST invasion continues.
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"Now if she comes around she is more than welcome back."
That sounds like what you would call "program speak".
My son was at 2N twice- total of 16 WEEKS (not months). His total program stint was less than 12 months.
A truce can only occur if both sides do their part. I have done mine. I would be glad to continue to answer PMs and talk via email and AIM. I don't need to participate in the "let's see how abusive TSW can be since he can't do it to program kids anymore" thread.
I noticed Lacey on the HLA thread advocating a wilderness program, as did Robert Bruce. Why don't you mosey on over there and tear them apart?
The 12 PMs weren't from program apologists, they were from TSW apologists. My PM to TSW was responding to this one from him.
"I won't speak for the others but if you are sincere and genuine about starting over then I will give you a chance."
I didn't realize "sincere and genuine" meant "you have to agree with everything I say and kiss my ass the way everyone else purports to do except in PMs among themselves."
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Karen, the Truce is whether or not we attack you out of frustration for whatever reason or not. Not whether or not we bring up what is wrong with 2N, Carlbrook, and the industry at large!
Nor is there some kind of middle ground between the truth and lies.
What is wrong, is wrong!
Isolation is wrong.
Abuse is wrong.
Lack of ACTUAL therapy and treatment to those who need it, is wrong.
Forcing "therapy" is wrong.
Using synanon/LGAT bullshit is wrong!
There is no middle ground to be had there! There is no tolerable threshold of abuse, isolation, quackery, or prevention of getting actual therapy. Period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_ground (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_ground) Lookie there! You should also check out all the other argumentative fallacies the entire industry has used on you, some of which you repeat - knowingly or not.
Then again, you're an attorney, its your job to try to slip them by people, isn't it?
At any rate, what was brought up by TSW... uh, is the truth, regardless of how mean he was or was not in doing so. You are also not going to smooth out any ruffled hackles on fornits by trying to say "hes mean and humiliating!" when that was exactly what 2N And Carlbrook attempted to do to your son and the crux of how all of these BM businesses, wilderness, institutional or whatnot, operate!
To conclude before I go on too long, I'll just get back to the "truce" thing. If you want us to not personally attack each other, fine. If you want to find a middle ground, don't hold your breath.
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Shit, while I have my ctrl + v "easy button"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_spite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_spite)
::boohoo::
Its bullshit anywhere, Karen, but considering what was done to your son on your dollar with your approval, its especially... uh, irrelevant to us.
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The game with ST parents is to find new and small programs that haven't been corrupted yet. That's what I've taken from my visits over there. They know the theory behind it is inherently dangerous, and it leads to places like CEDU and WWASPS if allowed to evolve organically. They choose to accept that risk on the part of their child, without any input from anyone else.
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And ignore the complete and total lack of criticism, transparency to any degree and any amount of oversight that plagues the entire industry?
AKA "total fucking lack of proof they do a god damned thing at all". :roll:
I brought that up and Jena banned me with her lil appeal to spite... oh that was a goodie :rofl:
The other thing is now there is actual information trickling out about these programs... half from their roots, half from people who worked at, lived through, or examined them. And, well, intrinsically, without any sort of variation on anything but nuances in how its done, its completely based on isolation, psychological quackery (specifically constant disclosure and emotional breakdowns somehow fix everyone and treat everything etc...) discomfort or outright suffering of various sorts, 'structure', menial repetitive chores, and conformance to some program's ideal of "emotional" growth/honesty/whatnot.
Wow, what a messy little diatribe. Too bad I'm not a fucking English major, else I might be more eloquent. Oh well, I got the crux of what I Was trying to say across...
But at any rate, they don't come to terms with how they all operate, they don't come to terms with the lack of any supporting evidence AT ALL, and they don't come to terms with simple psychological and developmental facts that you cant raise a kid in an institution, and you can't just ship them off! They all basically are trying to find some means to justify (and to act out) their need to "send them away" to have them "fixed" out of fear for them be it "deadinsaneorinjail" or... whatever, and ultimately, I think we know what that comes down to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking)
:lol: I really should do this more often.
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Where is that Karen from Dallas troll? Does that troll represent the same person you all are talking about?
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This got old a year ago. Karen is an attention whore.
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But is that the troll?
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The game with ST parents is to find new and small programs that haven't been corrupted yet. That's what I've taken from my visits over there. They know the theory behind it is inherently dangerous, and it leads to places like CEDU and WWASPS if allowed to evolve organically. They choose to accept that risk on the part of their child, without any input from anyone else.
This really is the heart of the matter. Program supporters will never address the moral basis for supporting coercive persuasion. They either deny that this is the method used, or deny that coercive persuasion even exists. When logically cornered, they resort to the argument that coercive persuasion is their only option available or the only effective technique (all else having failed) and so was necessary to ?save? their child.
Only a few supporters will flat out state their belief that the ends justified the means.
I have at least some respect for those fitting the last statement. They see and understand what is being done and have not been fooled by the gentle sounding propaganda of industry websites and literature. At least they are honest about it. Still, that does not make it right.
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But is that the troll?
Has to be, right? That crusty old bitch troll? :rofl:
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Only a few supporters will flat out state their belief that the ends justified the means.
That is what this thread is, people trying to get karen to just admit this already.
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And acting like my cockbean icon suggests, teaching her how to argue properly :lol:
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Is that what that thing is called? A cockbean?
Don't mind me, please continue with the discussion.
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Is that what that thing is called? A cockbean?
Don't mind me, please continue with the discussion.
I want to see Karen rear her ugly head one last time...
Damn it, Karen, you filthy cunt where are you?
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You got to smear the shit around on the walls a bit more, if you expect any flies.
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You got to smear the shit around on the walls a bit more, if you expect any flies.
Karen you whore, admit all of the things said about here are true! Do it now, biatch! :rofl:
I want to see you on your knees in front of TSW!! ::bwahaha::
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Karen in Dallas you vile witch! Clean that disgusting fucking hole of yours; we can smell it from here! Get your 'pool boy' to come swab the deck! :rofl: :rofl: ::both::
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The most useful thing to come of this thread, was that Karen was convinced to talk to her son about the specifics of his 'treatment'. She also admitted that Carlbrook is not what she had previously believed it to be. Coming from Karen, that's significant.
Parents are impressed with the sales pitch, 'emotional growth'... who wouldn't want that for their child? Safe environment, structure, consequences for negative behaviors... all very appealing to the terrifed parent. They get a parent handbook which outlines the milder forms of punishment, but have absolutely no clue what happens on a day-to-day basis, what the workshops entail, or the values of the young adults who are acting as surrogate parents. They don't really understand the impact of being isolated from the world and having contact with parents severed.
More program parents need to talk to their kids, and then listen when they tell them what actually happened. Take that information and try to find any research based on evidence to support the means. It simply doesnt exist.
Details of the methods have to be exposed. That alone will speak to the discerning potential program parent. For desperate or angry parents, the lack of evidence isn't going to matter. I feel certain some parents are happy to pay $5000 a month to have there child punished for the trouble they caused. Nothing will appeal to those parents.
IF, the Synanon/CEDU method was as effective and desirable as some believe it to be, there would be legitimate research and public programs would be adopting it. Thirty years, and no such research. I would like to read any researchers attempt to justify the degrading and humiliating methods as useful, again, not what's sold to the parent in the literature and manual, but what actually happens in the course of their so-called treatment. The 'real' methods need to be scrutinized. Until they can see how their kid got from point A to Z, they'll continue to believe that their child was treated ethically and it was a result of wholesome 'emotional growth', as will the public.
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If the "treatment" was helpful and as good as the brochures claim then there would be no need for fornits.
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If the "treatment" was helpful and as good as the brochures claim then there would be no need for fornits.
Exactly. And respectable researchers would be looking at it under the microscope in order to promote it to the public as a viable 'teatment' option, if it was genuniely beneficial.
There has been a number of industry funded research studies, but none look at the 'real' methods and the questionaire particpants are hand picked. Hardly objective.
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Karen I shudder to think of your whipped ass. :oops:
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IF, the Synanon/CEDU method was as effective and desirable as some believe it to be, there would be legitimate research and public programs would be adopting it. Thirty years, and no such research. I would like to read any researchers attempt to justify the degrading and humiliating methods as useful, again, not what's sold to the parent in the literature and manual, but what actually happens in the course of their so-called treatment. The 'real' methods need to be scrutinized. Until they can see how their kid got from point A to Z, they'll continue to believe that their child was treated ethically and it was a result of wholesome 'emotional growth', as will the public.
Agreed. These places thrive on secrecy. They count on the fact that the survivors can't even begin to describe to their parents what incredibly bizarre shit they have gone through, and that is after they have deprogrammed themselves, which can take years. By that time, a lot of survivors don't want to bother. All the parents know is that the child came out a completely different person than they went in. In addition, the websites are amazing and slick, if you don't know how to read between the lines. When the parents tour the facility, all they see are smiling happy (brainwashed) kids, and the tours are done when raps are not in session, so they don't hear the screams.
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The most useful thing to come of this thread, was that Karen was convinced to talk to her son about the specifics of his 'treatment'. She also admitted that Carlbrook is not what she had previously believed it to be. Coming from Karen, that's significant.
Parents are impressed with the sales pitch, 'emotional growth'... who wouldn't want that for their child? Safe environment, structure, consequences for negative behaviors... all very appealing to the terrifed parent.
Until they can see how their kid got from point A to Z, they'll continue to believe that their child was treated ethically and it was a result of wholesome 'emotional growth', as will the public.
Right, so running karen off the board was a stupid thing to do (not aimed at you Deborah) the more parents who come here & think about it, research it and actualy realise what could happen, the better, Karen was open and has seen soem things that she probably realy didn't want to see, she has to live with that, at least give her credit for trying to understand what goes on.......
The more parents are encouraged to do what she did (Which was pretty brave of her, she knew she was going to get serious crap) the more parents will come here BEFORE sending their kids off to programs, let the ones who have been there speak up - it's the only way to prevent the next potential disaster
To the person who said 2 months would have been great not 2 years, i can absolutely see where you come from with that.....these programs are abusive because of the amount of time they have the kids with them, in 2 minths a kid can do alot of maturing, miss home, think again, but in 2 months their personalities cannot be stripped away.
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In addition, the websites are amazing and slick, if you don't know how to read between the lines.
This is the part that confounds and disturbs me. It was the industry's websites that drove me to Fornit's in the first place. I guess I am someone who can read between the lines.
They all say the same thing and use the same jargon. When really thinking about what that jargon means for a few minutes, one can see that these places are really respressive environments that use forceful tactics. That alone was enough to put me off.
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but in 2 months their personalities cannot be stripped away.
No, but irreversible damage can be done. Daniel Yuen (http://http://www.crimelibrary.com/missing_children/daniel_yuen.html) was only at CEDU a few months (please someone correct me if I am off on this.) Then he ran away. His parents still haven't found him. He had never run away before CEDU. It's now almost three years since his disappearance. There have been sightings, but nobody has been able to positively locate him yet. His parents are crushed. They regret ever sending him there.
It only took CEDU a few months to ruin this family. I hope they are reunited at some point.
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I was talking about having the time to use program abuse tactics ... this is a sad tale indeed, like you I hope the family can get back together, I still think 6 - 8 weeks isn't enough time to brainwash someone, punish them into submission so they don't know who they are anymore, literally beat them into submission
If Programs were given a limited amount of time they could work with a child, with a set time in between going back, then i can almost guarantee they'd fold, it would not be financially viable for them to stay open knowing they can only work with a kid for 2 months, and that kid is only going to change what can possibly be changed, like thinking on what they've done, missing their family, maturing, having some time out etc
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Karen I shudder to think of your whipped ass. :oops:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Karen in Dallas you vile witch! Clean that disgusting fucking hole of yours; we can smell it from here! Get your 'pool boy' to come swab the deck! :rofl: :rofl: ::both::
I just pissed my pants, that was awesome! I love whoever wrote this! :rofl:
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Karen in Dallas you vile witch! Clean that disgusting fucking hole of yours; we can smell it from here! Get your 'pool boy' to come swab the deck! :rofl: :rofl: ::both::
I just pissed my pants, that was awesome! I love whoever wrote this! :rofl:
Thats hot :exclaim: :o
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Karens getting what she wants, attention.
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The more parents are encouraged to do what she did (Which was pretty brave of her, she knew she was going to get serious crap) the more parents will come here BEFORE sending their kids off to programs, let the ones who have been there speak up - it's the only way to prevent the next potential disaster
You are right!!!!!!!!! Karen deserves an award, at least.
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Karens getting what she wants, attention.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :tup: :tup: ::bwahaha2:: ::bwahaha:: :nworthy: :tup: :tup:
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Something awful forums....
:eng101: = the guy with the pointer and the edjumacatiun-style hat. Someone called it cockbean, I think... not sure.
It was just some doodle that caught on.
Also, I want that put that as an emblem on stuff instead of brand names on consumer goods! :rofl: Shift knobs, steering wheels, keyboards, mouses... etc.
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That's what TA is for. :P (Tobacco Anonymous.)
They really should just mash all of it together into one thing, and call it Everything Anonymous. Much easier than having to go to 5 different groups for your 5 different habits.
Step one: We admitted we were powerless over everything.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://http)
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When is that Fornits anonymous gonna show up?
Step one: Admit you are powerless against the urge to speak out of group
:rofl:
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And then there's the people who go online to whine about the whiners. What shall we call them?
WA!
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By popular demand, I'm going back over this whole thread to try and find the alleged felony. Please indulge my obsessive need to occasionally respond to stale old shit. I can't help myslef sometimes. Is there a program for that too? (don't answer.... please.... just don't!)
I'll give you an example, but there is no way you are going to appreciate the effectiveness of this without knowing our son, his history and his temperament more than you do.
You underestimate us.
He was given an assignment where everytime he regarded himself as an "exception" he was to announce it. In other words, if they were told to go wash off their cups, and he thought to himself, "I don't have to do that right now", he had to announce that he was an exception. It was humorous, but very effective in teaching him how often he saw himself as an exception to everything.
Ok, so why would a bunch of teenagers need that level of micromanagement? You tell a toddler to clean a cup because they need that level of direction. But a teenager? Only if they've already left a mess and it's in your way. Otherwise, their housekeeping and hygiene habits are their own business and any healthy minded kid would naturally take exception that that kind of incursion into their own personal space.
Am I the only one who sees this? In an instance where the alleged adults in charge are treating young adults like toddlers, a healthy minded kid is an exception, even if everyone else in sight are either buying into or playing along with the fiction. How dare he think for himself before automatically following every directive, eh?
Karen, this is the nut of the issue right here. The troubled parent industry is all about preventing your kids from growing up and out from under your neurotic need for total control. The next program in line is still offering the same basic service and, quite frankly, you come off looking like a dumb whore ever believing that the next pimp is soooo much better than the last one.
Now, I'm still looking for Gookie's alleged felony assault.
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My name is Guest.
I am a Forniscator.
Crowd: " Hi Guest!"
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The troubled parent industry is all about preventing your kids from growing up and out from under your neurotic need for total control.
I think that program parents consider this a positive aspect.
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I think ginger hit the nail on the head... however all a program has is a nail and those kids aren't fucking nails!
(http://http://images10.fotki.com/v206/photos/2/292835/1608389/Screwball-vi.jpg)
I think that describes most programmies though :rofl:
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exotic butt plugs
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This thread has been funny as shit lately!
Wow.. 150 pages.. :rofl:
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He says he was highly motivated to "make this work" or get everything out of it that he could.
My guess? There was probably a chick involved. I wonder if he got some?
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I still haven't been given any alternatives that would have worked for my family's particular situation at the time we sent our son to wilderness.
Karen, I'm about ready to write a bot to automatically respond with the obvious alternative.
Do it yourself. It's that simple. Take the time and money you would otherwise spend paying someone to raise your kids and raise your own kids. I know that sounds like a crazy idea in this day and age and Dr. Phool would never approve. But that's the way we've been doing it for some millions of years and somehow we've survived as a species.
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I still haven't been given any alternatives that would have worked for my family's particular situation at the time we sent our son to wilderness.
Karen, I'm about ready to write a bot to automatically respond with the obvious alternative.
Do it yourself. It's that simple. Take the time and money you would otherwise spend paying someone to raise your kids and raise your own kids. I know that sounds like a crazy idea in this day and age and Dr. Phool would never approve. But that's the way we've been doing it for some millions of years and somehow we've survived as a species.
:rofl: I love it!
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Ok, I've read all I have time for and then some and still haven't found where Gook has has horrifically wronged poor Karen. Looks more like she lost the argument on points and reverted back to the injured victim ploy. That's so often the insurmountable difference between program believers and those of us who have had enough of this bullshit to last a few lifetimes. You guys are arguing from an emotional standpoint while we vets are more concerned with facts and reason.
Listen up, please. This is serious business. I'm not some disgruntled teenager who doesn't want to clean her room or believe that excessive drug use can be dangerous. I'm a grown woman w/ grown kids who has come full circle and found that, now that I'm all grown up, I still don't understand all the bullshit that I was assured I would understand as soon as I was old enough. I don't understand it because it doesn't make sense, not because I'm too young or too fucked up.
Here's what you don't understand. And again, I'm not scolding you, I do believe you all are working from the best of intentions. But I know something that you don't know. You could know it, easily, as we're all here trying to tell you in as many ways as we can come up with.
It's really, really simple. There's something vital and irreplaceable about that unconditional family bond. And no matter how lucky you may get w/ one particular program or counselor having not fucked up your kid's psyche too obviously or too much, you still have smashed something that you cannot ever fully repair. You have invited strangers into your parent/child relationship for pay.
Look at it this way. Say you and your spouse are having significant trouble in the bedroom. Do you send him or her off to a prostitute for a little training? Or do you work it out together? Maybe you do hire a pro and are happy as hell with the results. But I don't think I care to have much intercourse with a society that operates that way. I'll just stick with keeping private things private and public things public, thanks very much.
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Ok, I've read all I have time for and then some and still haven't found where Gook has has horrifically wronged poor Karen. Looks more like she lost the argument on points and reverted back to the injured victim ploy. That's so often the insurmountable difference between program believers and those of us who have had enough of this bullshit to last a few lifetimes. You guys are arguing from an emotional standpoint while we vets are more concerned with facts and reason.
Listen up, please. This is serious business. I'm not some disgruntled teenager who doesn't want to clean her room or believe that excessive drug use can be dangerous. I'm a grown woman w/ grown kids who has come full circle and found that, now that I'm all grown up, I still don't understand all the bullshit that I was assured I would understand as soon as I was old enough. I don't understand it because it doesn't make sense, not because I'm too young or too fucked up.
Here's what you don't understand. And again, I'm not scolding you, I do believe you all are working from the best of intentions. But I know something that you don't know. You could know it, easily, as we're all here trying to tell you in as many ways as we can come up with.
It's really, really simple. There's something vital and irreplaceable about that unconditional family bond. And no matter how lucky you may get w/ one particular program or counselor having not fucked up your kid's psyche too obviously or too much, you still have smashed something that you cannot ever fully repair. You have invited strangers into your parent/child relationship for pay.
Look at it this way. Say you and your spouse are having significant trouble in the bedroom. Do you send him or her off to a prostitute for a little training? Or do you work it out together? Maybe you do hire a pro and are happy as hell with the results. But I don't think I care to have much intercourse with a society that operates that way. I'll just stick with keeping private things private and public things public, thanks very much.
Very eloquently stated! What else can anyone say?
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Why thank you!
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BRAVAMISIO!
And yeah, trouble in the bedroom... I think a lot of people would love an 'escort' called in at 3 am :rofl:
Seems the programs just missed their calling, huh?
But in all seriousness, that seems to be the issue sidestepped so often by almost everyone in the industry, and part of the feeling I get when I think about this but poorly communicate. Simply being taken away and held somewhere else is a horrible, horrible thing, but thats not 'bad' enough to be brought up, so you gotta bring up all the abuse and pscyhological nonsense, restraints, bad food, helplessness, isolation and quackery.
But even if all of that was not there, you still have taken someone out of their home, their surroundings, their friends, their family, their comforts, their room, their posessions, their clothes, their freedom, and their parents, and taken all of that away for a long time. You took away time when they should be growing up and learning to be themselves and how to be adults (whether or not their parents and society can accept it or not :roll: ) infact, the most important years in their life for that!
Hell, also for many the best years (or only really good years) of thier life. Thats irreperable. You can rise above it or make up for it, but you can't replace it, you cant repair it, you can't fix it, just patch it, just make up for it. Its taking a LOT away from someone, just the missing out on normal family love and normal development is bad enough.
All the other shit is just some very bitter 'iceing' on that cake, so to speak. It's not just the isolation, and not just the program, and not just the parent versus child bullshit, its all of that combined and the fact that it happened during the worst part of life to do it to someone of all!
I'm glad Ginger was able to so simply put that down in text, because Ive thought it myself too, I just wasn't able to communicate it.
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Well Hello, Just checking in. I have read some of the posts over the past few months which I have missed. Seems everyone is chipping away as usual but the wall is getting bigger. If you look at most of your posts 12 -18 months ago each of you had your own style and idiosyncratic vocabulary but this had eroded to the point where you all speak the same (with the exception of a few like Ginger who seems to keep growing and bettering herself some how and has the ability to hear both sides, not that she has given an inch on her position). I would have bet a months pay that at least Niles would have grown and stepped outside the ?group speak? and developed his own opinions? the others, well its too bad. You have weakened your own position, in my opinion, by not being true to yourselves and keeping your eye on what you are trying to accomplish. You are easily side tracked by taking someone down a notch or performing group rape, its like comparing mud wrestling to a debate?? parents looking for answers or help just won?t respect your opinions or position with these types of banter. If you are truly sincere and believe in a cause hold your sign up high, be clear on your position, get your message out to as many people as you can, listen to their feed back and adjust. If you put your sign down to chase a person down the street that doesn?t agree with your opinions a 1,000 cars will pass without the benefit of seeing your message.
A few years back when I was at Summer Jam at Watkins Glen ?73 (this is way before most of you) there was this guy next to me who put up a small tent and a sign that read ?$5.00 a swig/hit? next to 5 gallon jug of what appeared to be Kool-Aid or bug juice of some sort. One out of 10 people that walked by would stop to ask what it was. If you were a preppy he would reply ?Try it out and see for yourself just don?t drink too much or it will fuck you up for good?. If you were a ?Dead head? he would say ?Come back when Garcia is playing and you will have the experience of your life?, if you were a seasoned head he would tell you it was simply ?Brown organic Mescaline in a high fructose juice? . At the time I wondered why he gave everyone a different answer but years later I realized his information (message) was the same and he was being honest to everyone but he communicated it differently depending on who you were and it seemed no 2 customers were alike, this guy was a master. His replies were simple, if you didn?t like what he was selling that was fine he didn?t push it on you. He simply focused on those who stopped by. The first jug was empty before the Allman Brothers took the stage and fired up ?Whipping post?!!
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As if we're going to take any sort of advice from you.
(http://http://koti.mbnet.fi/buracee/kuvia3/get_the_fuck_out.jpg)
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He should of posted anon, I might have actually read the damn thing. :rofl:
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Well Hello, Just checking in. I have read some of the posts over the past few months which I have missed. Seems everyone is chipping away as usual but the wall is getting bigger. If you look at most of your posts 12 -18 months ago each of you had your own style and idiosyncratic vocabulary but this had eroded to the point where you all speak the same (with the exception of a few like Ginger who seems to keep growing and bettering herself some how and has the ability to hear both sides, not that she has given an inch on her position). I would have bet a months pay that at least Niles would have grown and stepped outside the ?group speak? and developed his own opinions? the others, well its too bad. You have weakened your own position, in my opinion, by not being true to yourselves and keeping your eye on what you are trying to accomplish. You are easily side tracked by taking someone down a notch or performing group rape, its like comparing mud wrestling to a debate?? parents looking for answers or help just won?t respect your opinions or position with these types of banter. If you are truly sincere and believe in a cause hold your sign up high, be clear on your position, get your message out to as many people as you can, listen to their feed back and adjust. If you put your sign down to chase a person down the street that doesn?t agree with your opinions a 1,000 cars will pass without the benefit of seeing your message.
A few years back when I was at Summer Jam at Watkins Glen ?73 (this is way before most of you) there was this guy next to me who put up a small tent and a sign that read ?$5.00 a swig/hit? next to 5 gallon jug of what appeared to be Kool-Aid or bug juice of some sort. One out of 10 people that walked by would stop to ask what it was. If you were a preppy he would reply ?Try it out and see for yourself just don?t drink too much or it will fuck you up for good?. If you were a ?Dead head? he would say ?Come back when Garcia is playing and you will have the experience of your life?, if you were a seasoned head he would tell you it was simply ?Brown organic Mescaline in a high fructose juice? . At the time I wondered why he gave everyone a different answer but years later I realized his information (message) was the same and he was being honest to everyone but he communicated it differently depending on who you were and it seemed no 2 customers were alike, this guy was a master. His replies were simple, if you didn?t like what he was selling that was fine he didn?t push it on you. He simply focused on those who stopped by. The first jug was empty before the Allman Brothers took the stage and fired up ?Whipping post?!!
Phil Ochs was a fucking lush who spent his last days starting bar fights for the hell of it. He got the shit beaten out of him on a regular basis, then he died. Pick your heroes better. I've got a different set of lyrics for "Sugar Magnolia"...
Sugar diabetes,
glucose spiking high,
my big ass is gonna die
Saw a Snickers bar under the bed,
smoked heroin, now JerrBear is dead.
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Finally, exactly!! and why did he get the shit beat out of him all the time? Most people wouldn?t go back after that. Why didn?t he change his ways? Why not write some more songs and become rich and live the good life? By Joe I think someone has been reading!!
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Well, you do certainly know a lot about Koolaid.
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Why not write some more songs and become rich and live the good life?
Umm...because the songs he did write sucked like a Hoover and he woulda made more money as a butcher? Now...who you jivin' with that Cozmic debris?
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Why not write some more songs and become rich and live the good life?
Umm...because the songs he did write sucked like a Hoover and he woulda made more money as a butcher? Now...who you jivin' with that Cozmic debris?
I am sorry you judge people so harshly, this is more a reflection on your position than his. So he didn?t make it after the political action of anti- Viet Nam, civil rights movements and the struggle with the entire social order abated in the early 70?s he stuck by his beliefs and when people stopped listening he lost himself, spiraled downward and finally hung himself on April 9, 1976 (?and no he never went to a TBS so don?t add him to the list) . So yes you can point fingers at him and call him a lousy song writer and a loser but he worked at what he knew best and did the best he could, but he had a large following and was respected by his peers.
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Just gotta ask:
Where have you been WHO?
And why didn't you stay there?
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Just gotta ask:
Where have you been WHO?
And why didn't you stay there?
I was in eastern Europe and Central Asia for 6 months establishing a support system (platform) for future business operations. I didn?t stay there because I don?t add value and cant contribute and found I cant grow a business there using a translator. I found it is better to hire local people and let them do what they do best and manage them from here. It is costing me a ton, but it is a venture and can be written off, but business is taking off over there so breaking even or better is probable. Thanks for asking!
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Karen, I'm about ready to write a bot to automatically respond with the obvious alternative.
Do it! It sure would save the rest of us the energy of having to go around in circles for 150 pages. Karen-bot 2000.
I'll QA it for you. I'm good at breaking things. :P
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I suppose if Ochs had been sent to a program, his suicide might have been prevented, or at least delayed. I also suppose he never would have written a song worthy of mention. After all, there is no way a program graduate would ever write songs critical of society or the government. Such disrespect is never tolerated in programs.
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I am sorry you judge people so harshly, this is more a reflection on your position than his.
I didn't consider it a harsh judgement. Unlike most people, I'm aware of who the guy was, I listened to his music, and after giving it a fair chance I reached the conclusion it was dreck. Let me define my position more clearly: I don't like whining two-chord folky protest music unless it's Bob Dylan. I still wish someone would shove that harmonica up his ass.
So he didn?t make it after the political action of anti- Viet Nam, civil rights movements and the struggle with the entire social order abated in the early 70?s he stuck by his beliefs and when people stopped listening he lost himself, spiraled downward and finally hung himself on April 9, 1976
Yeah, a lot of people lost their gigs when the hippies realized all they were getting from their "movements" was a host of venereal diseases. Thanks, hippies gave us (EDITED BY ZEN: HIPPIES GAVE US YUPPIES)
Judy Collins went to hell, Joan Baez bit it, and no one lost any sleep. I'd rather slide down a twenty-foot razor blade than hear that Baez woman croak "Joe Hill" again. By the way, which closely-held belief led Phil into bars to act like a violent hillbilly?
So yes you can point fingers at him and call him a lousy song writer and a loser but he worked at what he knew best and did the best he could, but he had a large following and was respected by his peers.
I can't point a finger at him. He's dead, he's folk dust blowin' in the wind. I am extending a finger in your honor, however. Music would have profited if Phil Ochs had become a professional bar brawler and left guitars alone. Dubya Bush has a large following and is respected by his peers, and I couldn't give a shit about him, either.
Peace and love, Moonbeam.
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Hippies and free love gave us HERPES.
The WHO (ironically) gave us AIDS.
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As a former hippie, I have to come to the defense of my past. Hippies and free love did not give us AIDS. AIDS came much later, in the 1980s. I could make a much stronger case that environmental destruction caused AIDS than you can that hippies did.
I don't like Phil Och's either. Too sappy sounding for my taste.
So, The Who is back and he is promoted drug use and protest music. Good for him!
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I suppose if Ochs had been sent to a program, his suicide might have been prevented, or at least delayed.
Well lets say it might have been different, who knows
I also suppose he never would have written a song worthy of mention.
?Outside of a small circle of friends?
After all, there is no way a program graduate would ever write songs critical of society or the government. Such disrespect is never tolerated in programs.
But once you are out you are out !! and if you are 18 or older you can do what you want and hopefully you make better decisions.
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AIDS was the result of people trying to mate with monkeys... :lol:
Where did I hear this before??????
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Are you accusing the The Who of mating with monkeys?
Who knew?
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But once you are out you are out !! and if you are 18 or older you can do what you want and hopefully you make better decisions.
So you admit that one cannot think for oneself while in a program. Or, think at all for that matter. Drink deeply and forget about music. We don't allow negative influences (like thinking and creativity) here in the program.
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But once you are out you are out !! and if you are 18 or older you can do what you want and hopefully you make better decisions.
So you admit that one cannot think for oneself while in a program. Or, think at all for that matter. Drink deeply and forget about music. We don't allow negative influences (like thinking and creativity) here in the program.
I was gonna say that what TheWho just said there is probably the most intelligent thing he's said in a while.
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So you admit that one cannot think for oneself while in a program. Or, think at all for that matter. Drink deeply and forget about music. We don't allow negative influences (like thinking and creativity) here in the program.
See that?s the difference in our thinking. If you you falter and find yourself in crisis or at risk you may have to conform to a well defined or preset path that is defined by someone else in an attempt to get you back on a safe course. This may be viewed as positive or negative depending on the persons point of view or its outcome (in retrospect). I see it as having to follow someone?s else?s path or rules and not your own. This is never desirable or a first choice but is considered safe (or safer than the path you were on). No, you may not chose your music or chose your time to listen to it. You cant chose to self medicate or harm yourself. When you are 18 you can take back this part of your life and hopefully you have been given some constructive tools to make wiser and safer decisions.
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TheWho, I want some of what you're smoking. Pass summa that shit over here now! :rofl:
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So you admit that one cannot think for oneself while in a program. Or, think at all for that matter. Drink deeply and forget about music. We don't allow negative influences (like thinking and creativity) here in the program.
See that?s the difference in our thinking. If you you falter and find yourself in crisis or at risk you may have to conform to a well defined or preset path that is defined by someone else in an attempt to get you back on a safe course. This may be viewed as positive or negative depending on the persons point of view or its outcome (in retrospect). I see it as having to follow someone?s else?s path or rules and not your own. This is never desirable or a first choice but is considered safe (or safer than the path you were on). No, you may not chose your music or chose your time to listen to it. You cant chose to self medicate or harm yourself. When you are 18 you can take back this part of your life and hopefully you have been given some constructive tools to make wiser and safer decisions.
Where is that bot of Ginger's?
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but is considered safe (or safer than the path you were on)
Considered safe by idiots. We know that the intervention is far more dangerous than the original path, and far more likely to lead to serious and permanent damage.
Ohio State lost. Damn!
I'm off to bed.
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BRAVAMISIO!
And yeah, trouble in the bedroom... I think a lot of people would love an 'escort' called in at 3 am :rofl:
Seems the programs just missed their calling, huh?
Hey, that's what SIBS is all about, isn't it kiddies? I swear, one day I'll set up recording and start calling some Vegas type escort services and see if they'll sink to the level of the likes of Sue's buddies Lorraine Colpitts, Dana Cox and Simon Timm. Whadaya wanna bet that would end in a call to 911 and FARKable headlines?
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I have phoned the escorts to go get The Who. Clearly he has faltered from the correct path and will end up dead-or-in-jail if we do not intervene, take away his rights, abuse him horribly, and force him to see things our way. Believe me, I tried everything else. This is the last resort. It is the last hope we have for saving him.
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See that?s the difference in our thinking. If you you falter and find yourself in crisis or at risk you may have to conform to a well defined or preset path that is defined by someone else in an attempt to get you back on a safe course.
Back to this again? Thanks for the high praise, btw. One of the things I've read since last we tussled was Steal This Urin Test. You should read it. See, in it--Hoffman's last publication just prior to his dubiously alleged suicide--he pulls nearly a 180 on the point of letting someone else direct our path out of the various kinds of trouble he most concerned himself with. He went from a Summer of `70 view of libralism almost full circle back to a more Jeffersonian view.
In other words, don't let some do-gooder inside the Beltway dictate to us how best to behave and be decent human beings. Think for ourselves instead, take care of our neighbors and friends ourselves.
That's what really ended the crack "epidemic" (fad, really, if ya want a more accurate term) People looked around, saw what was happening and decided they didn't want to be like the crack head down the street.
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I have phoned the escorts to go get The Who. Clearly he has faltered from the correct path and will end up dead-or-in-jail if we do not intervene, take away his rights, abuse him horribly, and force him to see things our way. Believe me, I tried everything else. This is the last resort. It is the last hope we have for saving him.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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I would just like to wonder why TheWho is trying his old argumentative bullshit again when we've been down this road before.
We won't be fooled again, dude. :roll:
Carlbrook AND 2N both have been throughly debunked, so sorry, you won't get anywhere trying to insult us on the whole or by trying to patronize myself or others.
Why?
Carlbrook is still an LGAT-utilizing, cookie-cutter program with all the same links to CEDU/Syannanon that damn near everything else has, with quackery, levels, tons of other bullshit, and good ole' coercion and Isolation!
We really need to lock this thread because when it degenerates into nothing but repetition, it's a waste of time. :o
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From the HLA thread: (so much for the debunking)
I completely agree with most of what lacey has said. I too am a former hla student, and also a Utah wilderness program student. I think that wilderness is definitely less harmful and more effective than a TBS type program. I was at second nature wilderness in 2002 before attending HLA and i feel it really helped me. I still keep in contact with both students and staff from the program. However, HLA was a very negative experience for me and my family. Having never been around cocaine going into the program it was available to me on several occasions in the short time i was there. Many people would sneak drugs in while returning home from breaks. I ended up leaving HLA 2 months after entering with a black eye and a broken nose which i received when a staff member decided to introduce my face to the ground for refusing to split firewood on restrictions. My parents were told i had gotten into a fight with another student.
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2N uses thought reform tactics just like Synnanon and is linked to Synannon/CEDU.
See what TSW drew up that everyone seems to forget.
When we accuse 2N of doing emotional mind-fuck nonsense, saying "I was a student there and I feel it helped me" does nothing about what we had to say!
For one, by nature of what we're accusing them of doing, if you say it feel it helped you, thats because of how manipulative it is. It would take them... not doing the shit we know they do, and being reviewed by an expert, not a student from the pace, and him saying it has changed for us to accept it.
For two, coallation is not causation.
For three, you're not an expert, you were a (supposedly) messed up kid who went through a wilderness camp that uses mind-fuck techniques. You FEEL it helped you, you dont KNOW it did, and nobody can demonstrate 2N does any good at all, just like every other program out there, TBS or wilderness or not.
For four, emotional arguements still don't hold any water.
Sorry HLA was so bad to you, if you're actually who you say you are and not a troll, at any rate.
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Ok, I've read all I have time for and then some and still haven't found where Gook has has horrifically wronged poor Karen. Looks more like she lost the argument on points and reverted back to the injured victim ploy. That's so often the insurmountable difference between program believers and those of us who have had enough of this bullshit to last a few lifetimes. You guys are arguing from an emotional standpoint while we vets are more concerned with facts and reason.
Listen up, please. This is serious business. I'm not some disgruntled teenager who doesn't want to clean her room or believe that excessive drug use can be dangerous. I'm a grown woman w/ grown kids who has come full circle and found that, now that I'm all grown up, I still don't understand all the bullshit that I was assured I would understand as soon as I was old enough. I don't understand it because it doesn't make sense, not because I'm too young or too fucked up.
Here's what you don't understand. And again, I'm not scolding you, I do believe you all are working from the best of intentions. But I know something that you don't know. You could know it, easily, as we're all here trying to tell you in as many ways as we can come up with.
It's really, really simple. There's something vital and irreplaceable about that unconditional family bond. And no matter how lucky you may get w/ one particular program or counselor having not fucked up your kid's psyche too obviously or too much, you still have smashed something that you cannot ever fully repair. You have invited strangers into your parent/child relationship for pay.
Look at it this way. Say you and your spouse are having significant trouble in the bedroom. Do you send him or her off to a prostitute for a little training? Or do you work it out together? Maybe you do hire a pro and are happy as hell with the results. But I don't think I care to have much intercourse with a society that operates that way. I'll just stick with keeping private things private and public things public, thanks very much.
Welcome back!! You've been missed. Love the bot!!!!
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robert bruce writes:
My own recomendation towards wilderness programs also has to do with my own experience. I found it to be less of a cookie cutter therapy aproach and more centered on allowing the individual to remove all the distractions from their life and focus on their own needs, not deal with a bunch of greedy quacks trying to force bullshit therapy on us.
Seems like those with some actual experience aren't quite as willing to denounce wilderness
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Seems like those with some actual experience aren't quite as willing to denounce wilderness
Shut up, penis breath! :rofl:
And next time be patient before clicking the submit button again.
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Right.
That was still uselessly vague, still completely ignored all the greivances we have brought up, is devoid of specifics, and does not actualy talk about any acutal therapy done noncoersively at an actual wilderness place.
Just generalities that fall apart in the face of speciifcs.
Nice try, but it ain't cutting it until Robert talks about a "Good" wilderness place that is noncoersive and has an actually proven track record.
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noncoersive is voluntary.
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Why do these people bother trying to argue over here?
Will someone tell me why?? :rofl:
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voluntary coersion usually is called "calling up a dominatrix" :rofl:
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voluntary coersion usually is called "calling up a dominatrix" :rofl:
Consensual abuse.... ::bwahaha2::
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BDSM is neither abusive nor involuntary, is what nobody realizes...
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I give it a few minutes at most?
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BDSM is neither abusive nor involuntary, is what nobody realizes...
I use the term (abuse) loosely there; come on, work w/ me.. :lol:
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Anyone on opening up a betting pool on if I can find a Korean Chick who likes BDSM as the dominxtrix?
I don't know about Korean, but I know there are some that fit that description in Thailand...
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We call those types Lady boys for a reason froderik.
Oh no... :rofl:
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See that?s the difference in our thinking. If you you falter and find yourself in crisis or at risk you may have to conform to a well defined or preset path that is defined by someone else in an attempt to get you back on a safe course.
Back to this again? Thanks for the high praise, btw. One of the things I've read since last we tussled was Steal This Urin Test. You should read it. See, in it--Hoffman's last publication just prior to his dubiously alleged suicide--he pulls nearly a 180 on the point of letting someone else direct our path out of the various kinds of trouble he most concerned himself with. He went from a Summer of `70 view of libralism almost full circle back to a more Jeffersonian view.
In other words, don't let some do-gooder inside the Beltway dictate to us how best to behave and be decent human beings. Think for ourselves instead, take care of our neighbors and friends ourselves.
That's what really ended the crack "epidemic" (fad, really, if ya want a more accurate term) People looked around, saw what was happening and decided they didn't want to be like the crack head down the street.
Wow I remember that book, early 90?s I believe, it sparked a huge ethical debate within a Company that I was with at the time of how employees should be screened or if they should be screened at all. The company opted to not screen at all. But now the insurance companies got involved because employees are suing their employers for not being understanding and paying for rehab and paid extended leave of absences to clean up etc. that drug testing is being forced upon us or our premiums will go up. So what do we do? One of the companies I am involved with develops drug testing equipment (primarily for the pharmaceutical industry) but are also purchased and used by local labs. Our employees handle pharmaceutical grade drugs on a daily bases cocaine and a full spectrum of narcotics so random drug testing is essential if for anything to protect the employees. But now by testing these people we are seeing more than we should. The latest systems HPLC and GC/MS (Gas Chromatography/Mass Spectrometer) can detect and document a full spectrum analysis of what is in your system ie, nicotine, pain killers, depression medications, viagra etc. These extensive tests are being more widely used because of the many ways to fool the ?Bladder Cops? (Bleach, a few Drano crystals under the finger nails, drop of blood etc.) that we have to be careful of false positives, negatives. But the results may reveal too much about the person and violate their rights to privacy so this is becoming a battle between the insurance companies and the courts with large businesses stuck in the middle. Anyway, I'm on a tangent, sorry..............
I don?t recall Hoffmans 180, I would like to see that again. I do agree that we need to always think for ourselves but kids need to be guided down the right path and protected. Some kids will see the danger and avoid it others will not. Each child is different, some kids can come home after school and be trusted to an empty house at age 10 and others can not.
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2N uses thought reform tactics just like Synnanon and is linked to Synannon/CEDU.
See what TSW drew up that everyone seems to forget.
When we accuse 2N of doing emotional mind-fuck nonsense, saying "I was a student there and I feel it helped me" does nothing about what we had to say!
For one, by nature of what we're accusing them of doing, if you say it feel it helped you, thats because of how manipulative it is. It would take them... not doing the shit we know they do, and being reviewed by an expert, not a student from the pace, and him saying it has changed for us to accept it.
For two, coallation is not causation.
For three, you're not an expert, you were a (supposedly) messed up kid who went through a wilderness camp that uses mind-fuck techniques. You FEEL it helped you, you dont KNOW it did, and nobody can demonstrate 2N does any good at all, just like every other program out there, TBS or wilderness or not.
For four, emotional arguements still don't hold any water.
Sorry HLA was so bad to you, if you're actually who you say you are and not a troll, at any rate.
Niles, give the kid a break. He/She is expressing and sharing their experiences. It was expressed in a commonly excepted language (English) so no need for interpretation, especially by someone who was never there.
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Cindy there were a number of claims you made last night, are you now prepared to back them up?
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Cindy there were a number of claims you made last night, are you now prepared to back them up?
Sorry, but I am not. I speak my mind, I am not going to do your busy work for you everytime I step on your toes. If my information seems inaccurate to you simply present me with your findings and we can discuss it if a particular point seems important to you, but I am not going to have all my posts notarized and apostilled.
If people feel my posts are bs or get to a point where they are not interested in what I have to say then they can just pass over them based on the ID to the left of the post, that?s what I do, it?s a nice system.
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Right. Cindy all you have to say is that you were talking out of your ass yet again and one more time cannot back up your own statements.
You current excuse seems to boil down to someone saying 2+2=11 and then demanding someone else prove them wrong. No idiot that isn't the way it works, YOU made the claim so YOU get to back it up. Otherwise its dismissed as the nonsensical bullshit of some jackass who never knows what the hell he's talking about.
This seems to be fairly typical behavior from you Cindy. Have you thought about getting some help? I know of a few places you'd fit right in. I find it ironic that you keep babbeling on and on about people not growing or changing since the last time you graced us with your presence. Yet the fact of the matter is you are the one who hasn't changed, youre still just as dumb and full of yourself as you ever were. Some people just can't change I guess.
In any event here are the claims you made, back them up or acknowledge you were wrong.
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide the quote from me stating something that insinuates this is how I either currently feel or felt in the past. I am not going to provide every statement I have ever made on here as a means of disproving you. If you recall me making such a statement it should be no problem for you to find it. Best of luck.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Prove it. Provide statements and numbers to back up your claim. If you can't just say so. I'm sure everyone will understand.
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Right. Cindy all you have to say is that you were talking out of your ass yet again and one more time cannot back up your own statements.
You current excuse seems to boil down to someone saying 2+2=11 and then demanding someone else prove them wrong. No idiot that isn't the way it works, YOU made the claim so YOU get to back it up. Otherwise its dismissed as the nonsensical bullshit of some jackass who never knows what the hell he's talking about.
This seems to be fairly typical behavior from you Cindy. Have you thought about getting some help? I know of a few places you'd fit right in. I find it ironic that you keep babbeling on and on about people not growing or changing since the last time you graced us with your presence. Yet the fact of the matter is you are the one who hasn't changed, youre still just as dumb and full of yourself as you ever were. Some people just can't change I guess.
In any event here are the claims you made, back them up or acknowledge you were wrong.
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide the quote from me stating something that insinuates this is how I either currently feel or felt in the past. I am not going to provide every statement I have ever made on here as a means of disproving you. If you recall me making such a statement it should be no problem for you to find it. Best of luck.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Prove it. Provide statements and numbers to back up your claim. If you can't just say so. I'm sure everyone will understand.
Sorry Bob but the expression is "1+1=11" Facts and figures just dont seem to be your forte and would be lost on you anyway. I wont waste my time..............you will have to take my word or discard it as rubbish let the readers decide
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If he keeps this shit up, every Who album I own from My Generation to Endless Wire is going in the trash. Change your name, whoboy, you're creating negative associations.
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Sounds like some ripe candidates for SIBS.
I'm listening to Live at Leeds right now...
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The readers have decided. You are full of shit. We've known this all along. I just don't understand why people keep responding to you. You have beem proven factually wrong many, many times and are just the average moron who thinks (incorrectly) that he is an industry player because you incarcerated your kid and read a book. We got it already. You are hereby officially dismissed as 'rubbish'. Have a nice day!
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The readers have decided. You are full of shit. We've known this all along. I just don't understand why people keep responding to you. You have beem proven factually wrong many, many times and are just the average moron who thinks (incorrectly) that he is an industry player because you incarcerated your kid and read a book. We got it already. You are hereby officially dismissed as 'rubbish'. Have a nice day!
:rofl: :rofl: ::drummer:: ::rocker:: ::bangin:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: :rofl: ::bwahaha2:: :nworthy: :nworthy: ::both:: :tup:
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The readers have decided. You are full of shit. We've known this all along. I just don't understand why people keep responding to you. You have beem proven factually wrong many, many times and are just the average moron who thinks (incorrectly) that he is an industry player because you incarcerated your kid and read a book. We got it already. You are hereby officially dismissed as 'rubbish'. Have a nice day!
Thank you, we needed that intervention/mediation. Well, I guess that decides it.... Bob Should be happy.... I will accept your facts and figures at face value. Although you calling me a moron who thinks incorrectly and can read a book is actually an oxymoron in itself if you think about it. That?s a classic line???
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Sorry Bob but the expression is "1+1=11"
I'm sorry I wasn't actually using a cliche, rather I was making an illustration to point out your nonsensical logic. I'll try and use more familiar catch phrases next time in order to help you out, I wouldn't want you getting overly confused.
Facts and figures just dont seem to be your forte and would be lost on you anyway
Really? This of course is coming from the same guy who claimed there were 10,000 psychologist in the United States and that an entire organization signing off on a document equals out to one person. This is also coming from the same man who couldnt wrap his mind around the difference between doing as well as 75% of schools or doing worse than 75% of schools.
I wont waste my time..............you will have to take my word or discard it as rubbish let the readers decide
You won't waste your time backing up your own claims?
This is a smart tactic Cindy, I can see now why so many people respect you. Oh and as to the other readers, the verdict seems to be in.
Now back to the issue at hand:
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide the comment I made which insinuates I feel now or have in the past felt this way.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Provide numbers and statements proving this comment to be correct.
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Sorry Bob but the expression is "1+1=11"
I'm sorry I wasn't actually using a cliche, rather I was making an illustration to point out your nonsensical logic. I'll try and use more familiar catch phrases next time in order to help you out, I wouldn't want you getting overly confused.
Facts and figures just dont seem to be your forte and would be lost on you anyway
Really? This of course is coming from the same guy who claimed there were 10,000 psychologist in the United States and that an entire organization signing off on a document equals out to one person. This is also coming from the same man who couldnt wrap his mind around the difference between doing as well as 75% of schools or doing worse than 75% of schools.
I wont waste my time..............you will have to take my word or discard it as rubbish let the readers decide
You won't waste your time backing up your own claims?
This is a smart tactic Cindy, I can see now why so many people respect you. Oh and as to the other readers, the verdict seems to be in.
Now back to the issue at hand:
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide the comment I made which insinuates I feel now or have in the past felt this way.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Provide numbers and statements proving this comment to be correct.
Sorry Bob but the expression is "1+1=11" Facts and figures just dont seem to be your forte and would be lost on you anyway. I wont waste my time..............you will have to take my word or discard it as rubbish
I am not going back thru the archives to retrieve data for you. It is busy work. Why dont you go back and find the data you need and support your position if it is important to you.
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Once again idiot, it's your claim you back it up. You see you claim I said something which I never said, prove that I said it. You also claimed the majority of posters feel a certain way, provide a basis for this claim.
Let me offer you another example:
Attention everyone TheWho has sex with wild animals, usually forcibly.
Prove me wrong Cindy. I've made a claim yet I see no reason to back it up, until you can prove it to be untrue the claim stands, you rape woodchucks.
The thing I can't get is if you are either too stupid to get it or just too full of yourself to admit you've been beaten....again.
You let me know Cindy, and seriously lay off those woodchucks.
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Once again idiot, it's your claim you back it up. You see you claim I said something which I never said, prove that I said it. You also claimed the majority of posters feel a certain way, provide a basis for this claim.
Let me offer you another example:
Attention everyone TheWho has sex with wild animals, usually forcibly.
Prove me wrong Cindy. I've made a claim yet I see no reason to back it up, until you can prove it to be untrue the claim stands, you rape woodchucks.
The thing I can't get is if you are either too stupid to get it or just too full of yourself to admit you've been beaten....again.
You let me know Cindy, and seriously lay off those woodchucks.
Okay here goes:
First of all you cant force a wild animal to have sex. They are wild, by nature, and therefore enjoy sex and any court of law would know a wild animal would have consented and at the very least could not say ?No?. A woodchuck is a wild animal by most standards although in some parts of Georgia, I have heard, they can be considered family members but you would be hard pressed to find one to testify.
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You sound like you know from personal experience, you're only reinforcing my claim (which I still see no reason to back up). You rape wild animals.
Now: Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide the comment I made which suggest something along these lines. If you can't simply say so.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Provide numbers and statements proving this to be true.
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Boy, Who, Mr. Bob there seems pretty obsessed with you. He follows you all over the forum.
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That's because he's freaking hysterical. Seriously it's like watching the office listening to him dig himself deeper and deeper. Hilarious. What's more he's not smart enough to realize how stupid he is, which makes it that much funnier.
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Every village has its idiot.
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He's enough for a whole city.
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You sound like you know from personal experience, you're only reinforcing my claim (which I still see no reason to back up). You rape wild animals.
Now: Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide the comment I made which suggest something along these lines. If you can't simply say so.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Provide numbers and statements proving this to be true.
My point is that if they are wild they enjoy it (by nature) and therefore it cant be called rape, it must be assumed to be consensual. If you said I raped domesticated animals the SPCA could get involved and they could make a case against someone. I think you are a twisted person for bring this up but am willing to work with you on your choice of analogies if it makes you feel comfortable and we can get our points across.
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Once again you add more and more creedence to the claim. You've apparently researched this thouroughly and have defended yourself against this claim on many occasion. Apparently I was right on the money.
You rape wild animals. I see no reason to back up my claim until you back up yours.
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide a statement I have made which would suggest this to be true.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Provide numbers and statements to back this up.
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Once again you add more and more creedence to the claim. You've apparently researched this thouroughly and have defended yourself against this claim on many occasion. Apparently I was right on the money.
You rape wild animals. I see no reason to back up my claim until you back up yours.
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide a statement I have made which would suggest this to be true.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Provide numbers and statements to back this up.
bingo! I think the fog is clearing.
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Bingo the clown-o.... :rofl:
You seen that one yet, Who?
It's awesome!
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We understand each other than? Wonderful. Now go and back up your claims or acknowledge you cannot. Simple as that.
In the meantime you may want to get on some antibiotics. I've heard people trapped in the wild who eat squirells can sometimes get the bubonic plauge, God only knows what you've caught after raping them time and time again.
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide the statement I have made which suggest this to be true.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Provide numbers and statements to prove this claim.
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Smoke weed, it's good for you!!
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We understand each other than? Wonderful. Now go and back up your claims or acknowledge you cannot. Simple as that.
In the meantime you may want to get on some antibiotics. I've heard people trapped in the wild who eat squirells can sometimes get the bubonic plauge, God only knows what you've caught after raping them time and time again.
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
Provide the statement I have made which suggest this to be true.
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Provide numbers and statements to prove this claim.
Finally the clouds part, the answer is , Yes!
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Good so get on it. I didn't think you'd ever get it but I'm glad you finally asked someone for help.
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Good so get on it. I didn't think you'd ever get it but I'm glad you finally asked someone for help.
You are welcome. Now relax and try to get past this, its not the end of the world you can do it.
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So you still can't back up your claim then?
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I miss Karen. :D
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Spend more time on the range.
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So you still can't back up your claim then?
Are you talking about the woodchuck or the hampster? I dont want to tip my hand............
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I miss Karen. :D
she's letting that sore, swollen, spanked ass heal a little before returning for more punishment.
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Are you talking about the woodchuck or the hampster? I dont want to tip my hand............
No one mentioned a hamster Cindy stay focused here. Don't let your lust for new creatures distract you. Now again can you or can you not back up the following statements?
Exactly!! So at least we agree the car needs work !! 6 months ago you wouldn?t agree the car needed fixing
My analogy would, yes, a majority of posters, here on Fornits use to suggest that doing nothing was the best course of action for kids who were in trouble.
Let me know Cindy.
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I miss Karen. :D
She's letting that sore, swollen, spanked ass heal a little before returning for more punishment.
I'll bet!! If I were Karen I wouldn't make to much of a big deal about TSW being bombed out of his gourd during the Carlbrookgate fiasco. It does draw notice to the fact that she got her ass kicked by a guy who was probably so drunk he could barely see straight.
Well that is Karen for you. Must be one lousy lawyer to give up her composure that easily.
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You should have maintained that car better, because when a transmission blows it means someone wasn't doing the proper care for their vehicle. Either riding it too hard, not changing the fluids, grinding gears... but hey at least if you blow up your car you can just buy replacement parts.
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I assure you- it isn't a matter of giving up my composure. It's a matter of being thoroughly disgusted by the inevitable fall back to trash talk and personal attacks. I don't need to suffer fools.
The Who is much more entertaining. Welcome back!
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Attention everyone TheWho has sex with wild animals, usually forcibly.
So, again I ask you, how is this proven. A wild animal is wild by nature so how can force be introduced?
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I assure you- it isn't a matter of giving up my composure. It's a matter of being thoroughly disgusted by the inevitable fall back to trash talk and personal attacks. I don't need to suffer fools.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Poor, poor Karen... :lol:
How's that red ass of yours doin' babe? :rofl:
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Cindy I will be more than happy to back up my claim once you do.
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Why do I get the feeling who is trolling robert? :rofl:
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Robert- speaking of red asses. How's yours doing?
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I assure you- it isn't a matter of giving up my composure. It's a matter of being thoroughly disgusted by the inevitable fall back to trash talk and personal attacks. I don't need to suffer fools.
The Who is much more entertaining. Welcome back!
Well you too set the standard pretty low there, ms. self righteous.
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When I try to amuse everyone with bathroom and sexual humor befitting a 12 year old, then you can call me self-righteous. In the meantime, just call me disgusted. Who is much more clever.
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I would be proud of you if you did that, at least you would show that you can actually lighten up!
Personally I dont read things that disgust me... yet you come back all the time. :P :roll:
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Dammit, where the hell is TSW????
Someone alert him that Karen's here!!! :rofl:
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He must have forgotten to take his computer to the bar.
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hen you can call me self-righteous
I dont have to do that. When you come back with a response saying the only place you stick around this shithole is to save parents with your heavenly advice via PM, well that will do it. :rofl:
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He must have forgotten to take his computer to the bar.
Befitting of a 16 year old, come on karen, bring it down a little. It's fun.
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He must have forgotten to take his computer to the bar.
Drunk or no, he sure spanked your ass ~good, K. :rofl:
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I don't PM with parents on this forum. I PM with regular posters who want to have discussions without the interference of TSW.
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That's not what my mom said.
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Interesting how so many of the "regulars" are not logging in. What's that all about?
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I, for one, am no regular on this forum.
Toker's the name...
Is that your pussy? :rofl:
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Toker would be ONE of your names.
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"Regulars" ... what an grey term to refer to oneself. Suck it, libtard.
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Toker would be ONE of your names.
Here we go with guess the anons, this game is always fun.
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So you still can't back up your claim then?
Are you talking about the woodchuck or the hampster? I dont want to tip my hand............
you even lie about this. you're a gerbil man and everyone knows it.
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Toker would be ONE of your names.
What's my other name, Karen?
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So you still can't back up your claim then?
Are you talking about the woodchuck or the hampster? I dont want to tip my hand............
you even lie about this. you're a gerbil man and everyone knows it.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Toker would be ONE of your names.
What's my other name, Karen?
Dysfunktionjunktion?
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Dear Young Who,
The staff warned me that you would resist. They proactively informed me that you would lie and use silly rationalizations and false logic in an attempt to gain my understanding and pity. This is called manipulation (Your Family Rep explained this to me). I will have none of it. I am not listening. Work your program.
Please note that I am fully committed to keeping you in your program until you graduate. I have sold all of your possessions and rented out your room. I have cashed in your college fund. I am even willing to take out a second mortgage on your house (which you will inherit, if you get better). I am so committed to your finishing your program that I will sacrifice everything you have to achieve this goal. Be a good boy and work your program.
Know that I do this because I love you. While I have never personally met any of the staff at your program, I have read about them on the Internet and know that they also love you. Your Family Rep says so and I trust her word over yours. Everything staff does to you, even if it harms you, is only to help you work your program. You need to be treated like this in order to save you from certain death, or jail.
I think about you all the time. As I took a hot shower this morning, I thought about you taking your cold one and felt sorry for you. As your family and I ate a juicy steak, I thought about you eating raw oatmeal. I felt a bit guilty about that. This is sooo hard for me! Don't you understand how hard this is for me and how much sorrow you are bringing to me? Please work your program, so that you might come home and be our beautiful, obedient little Who again.
I want to you to accept that although I was a bad parent (I admit it. See what a good person I am?) that it was your resulting bad choices that brought you to where you are. You must accept responsibility for my shortcomings because you chose to use them as an excuse to listen to Phil Ochs.
Oh, and I have been advised you have been in contact with Fornit's posters. I have instructed your program that you are not to have any further contact with these negative, angry children (except Charly). I could just throttle those little bastards! A few kids die in programs and they jump off the deep end and condemn all the good work that is being done. They think a few months in isolation is a big deal. It is nothing compared to the life we would have had, if we had not intervened. We would have suffered so much more and you may have as well.
Now, be a good boy and work your program.
Love,
AtomicAnt
P.S. The Animal Safety people took your dog away today. They found him chained in our backyard without food or water for days. After all, since you are so irresponsible as to land in a program, there is no one here to take care of the poor thing. You must accept your responsibilities better than that and deserve to lose your pet. Work your program.
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From: Charly
To: RobertBruce
Posted: 22 Dec 2006 16:12
Subject: Peace
Robert- My apogies for my role in the hostility on the forum. I fully support and respect your efforts to shut down HLA, and I expect total success. I have written to DJ, Deborah and others, and would like to end the animosity. I have no interest in supporting programs- what we chose to do with our son happened to work, but most of the reasons were unique to our situation and had nothing to do with any particular program "magic" or therapeutic value. I have been chatting with Mike (psy) and see the biggest problem as being the lack of good options for families who, for whatever combination of fault by parents and teens, have reached the point of no return. To me, this is where we should focus so that when a program comes to ST or to Fornits, we can say, "Try this" and it will actually be something they haven't tried yet and that they teen might be willing to do!
Anyway- I appreciate your work and your passion for the cause. I support you and hope you will accept my apologies.
Karen
Should have stayed quiet over there Karen.
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Your point is?????
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that now youre going to get whats coming to you.
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I think it is pretty crappy for Robert and TSW to post my PMs to them. It ranks right up there with checking the IP addresses on what is supposed to be anonymous posting. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Interesting that I got so many appreciative PRIVATE responses to my notes of apology, which I would never post publicly.
I guess that's just the difference in how some people conduct themselves.
Go back to The Who, Robert. You and I have nothing to say to each other.
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Spam
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Dear Young Who,
The staff warned me that you would resist. They proactively informed me that you would lie and use silly rationalizations and false logic in an attempt to gain my understanding and pity. This is called manipulation (Your Family Rep explained this to me). I will have none of it. I am not listening. Work your program.
Please note that I am fully committed to keeping you in your program until you graduate. I have sold all of your possessions and rented out your room. I have cashed in your college fund. I am even willing to take out a second mortgage on your house (which you will inherit, if you get better). I am so committed to your finishing your program that I will sacrifice everything you have to achieve this goal. Be a good boy and work your program.
Know that I do this because I love you. While I have never personally met any of the staff at your program, I have read about them on the Internet and know that they also love you. Your Family Rep says so and I trust her word over yours. Everything staff does to you, even if it harms you, is only to help you work your program. I want you to be treated like this in order to save you from certain death, or jail.
I think about you all the time. As I took a hot shower this morning, I thought about you taking your cold one and felt sorry for you. As your family and I ate a juicy steak, I thought about you eating raw oatmeal. I felt a bit guilty about that. This is sooo hard for me! Don't you understand how hard this is for me and how much sorrow you are bringing to me? Please work your program, so that you might come home and be our beautiful, obedient little Who again.
I want to you to accept that although I was a bad parent (I admit it. See what a good person I am?) that it was your resulting bad choices that brought you to where you are. You must accept responsibility for my shortcomings because you chose to use them as an excuse to listen to Phil Ochs.
Oh, and I have been advised you have been in contact with Fornit's posters. I have instructed your program that you are not to have any further contact with these negative, angry children (except Charly). I could just throttle those little bastards! A few kids die in programs and they jump off the deep end and condemn all the good work that is being done. They think a few months in isolation is a big deal. It is nothing compared to the life we would have had, if we had not intervened. We would have suffered so much more and you may have as well.
Now, be a good boy and work your program.
Love,
AtomicAnt
P.S. The Animal Safety people took your dog away today. They found him chained in our backyard without food or water for days. After all, since you are so irresponsible as to land in a program, there is no one here to take care of the poor thing. You must accept your responsibilities better than that and deserve to lose your pet. Work your program.
Wow AA that was good!! [cut and paste] I saved this. I have read it 3 times. I am confused about why they took my dog. Is it because of the Woodchuck incident/posts? or the lack of food and water?
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I think it is pretty crappy for Robert and TSW to post my PMs to them. It ranks right up there with checking the IP addresses on what is supposed to be anonymous posting. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Interesting that I got so many appreciative PRIVATE responses to my notes of apology, which I would never post publicly.
I guess that's just the difference in how some people conduct themselves.
Go back to The Who, Robert. You and I have nothing to say to each other.
You didn't get any appreciative letters from me you crazy whack job.
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No, I got really mean responses from you, which speaks to your character and not mine. I chose not to post them on a public forum.
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This is like watching a married couple fighting for moral superiority.
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I think it is pretty crappy for Robert and TSW to post my PMs to them. It ranks right up there with checking the IP addresses on what is supposed to be anonymous posting. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Interesting that I got so many appreciative PRIVATE responses to my notes of apology, which I would never post publicly.
I guess that's just the difference in how some people conduct themselves.
Go back to The Who, Robert. You and I have nothing to say to each other.
There is no privacy in your program, little Who. Your therapist tells me everything. I know everything you told him about me and I promise you I will use it against you. I have already passed all information to both the Family Rep and your group discussion leader. Work your program!
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Your point is?????
My point is that I hear you like to take a toke every now and again. Is this true? Don't worry, you can tell us; we're all friends here! Full disclosure on the Teen Help Industry Forum!
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Really? I have no qualms about sharing with the rest of the board how I put you to shame. Say the word whack job.
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This is like watching a married couple fighting for moral superiority.
:P :rofl: :rofl: ::bwahaha:: ::argue:: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :nworthy: :nworthy: :tup:
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Wow AA that was good!! [cut and paste] I saved this. I have read it 3 times. I am confused about why they took my dog. Is it because of the Woodchuck incident/posts? or the lack of food and water?
They took your dog because you are too irresponsible to care for him properly. You haven?t fed him since you got yourself locked into a program. Now stop whining and work your program!
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YOU put me to shame. Now THAT is hilarious. Robert, I tried to make peace with you. I really hope you can figure out why you have so much anger. I have had so few dealings with you that I can not even imagine how you came up with so much hostility. I feel really, really sorry for you, but let's just give it a rest. As Who says, you'll figure it all out.
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I can no longer remain silent. Could the person posing as me, in the guise of Charly, stop this now? I haven't any intention of seeking out a truce with any of the members of the fornits community. This is a troll!
Leave me out of this!
For all we know Charly really is a regular fornits poster causing more trouble!
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Wow AA that was good!! [cut and paste] I saved this. I have read it 3 times. I am confused about why they took my dog. Is it because of the Woodchuck incident/posts? or the lack of food and water?
They took your dog because you are too irresponsible to care for him properly. You haven?t fed him since you got yourself locked into a program. Now stop whining and work your program!
Go, man, go!!! This keeps getting more and more hilarious with every post!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :tup: :tup: ::bigmouth::
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Dear Young Who,
The staff warned me that you would resist. They proactively informed me that you would lie and use silly rationalizations and false logic in an attempt to gain my understanding and pity. This is called manipulation (Your Family Rep explained this to me). I will have none of it. I am not listening. Work your program.
Please note that I am fully committed to keeping you in your program until you graduate. I have sold all of your possessions and rented out your room. I have cashed in your college fund. I am even willing to take out a second mortgage on your house (which you will inherit, if you get better). I am so committed to your finishing your program that I will sacrifice everything you have to achieve this goal. Be a good boy and work your program.
Know that I do this because I love you. While I have never personally met any of the staff at your program, I have read about them on the Internet and know that they also love you. Your Family Rep says so and I trust her word over yours. Everything staff does to you, even if it harms you, is only to help you work your program. I want you to be treated like this in order to save you from certain death, or jail.
I think about you all the time. As I took a hot shower this morning, I thought about you taking your cold one and felt sorry for you. As your family and I ate a juicy steak, I thought about you eating raw oatmeal. I felt a bit guilty about that. This is sooo hard for me! Don't you understand how hard this is for me and how much sorrow you are bringing to me? Please work your program, so that you might come home and be our beautiful, obedient little Who again.
I want to you to accept that although I was a bad parent (I admit it. See what a good person I am?) that it was your resulting bad choices that brought you to where you are. You must accept responsibility for my shortcomings because you chose to use them as an excuse to listen to Phil Ochs.
Oh, and I have been advised you have been in contact with Fornit's posters. I have instructed your program that you are not to have any further contact with these negative, angry children (except Charly). I could just throttle those little bastards! A few kids die in programs and they jump off the deep end and condemn all the good work that is being done. They think a few months in isolation is a big deal. It is nothing compared to the life we would have had, if we had not intervened. We would have suffered so much more and you may have as well.
Now, be a good boy and work your program.
Love,
AtomicAnt
P.S. The Animal Safety people took your dog away today. They found him chained in our backyard without food or water for days. After all, since you are so irresponsible as to land in a program, there is no one here to take care of the poor thing. You must accept your responsibilities better than that and deserve to lose your pet. Work your program.
Gold!! Pure gold!! :rofl: :nworthy:
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I assure you- it isn't a matter of giving up my composure. It's a matter of being thoroughly disgusted by the inevitable fall back to trash talk and personal attacks. I don't need to suffer fools.
The Who is much more entertaining. Welcome back!
I hate those personal attacks too.
And, my brilliant Deborah, are you contending that these troubled teens are manipulative solely because their parents have taught them to be so?
You really have a high opinion of parents, don't you?
You are such an angry bitch.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Interesting how so many of the "regulars" are not logging in. What's that all about?
Who the fuck are you?
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Interesting how so many of the "regulars" are not logging in. What's that all about?
Who the fuck are you?
She's an attention whore, Lord Obnoxio.
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(http://http://www.encyclopediaofstupid.com/stupid/images/thumb/d/d0/300px-Attention_whore3.jpg)
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2N uses thought reform tactics just like Synnanon and is linked to Synannon/CEDU.
See what TSW drew up that everyone seems to forget.
When we accuse 2N of doing emotional mind-fuck nonsense, saying "I was a student there and I feel it helped me" does nothing about what we had to say!
For one, by nature of what we're accusing them of doing, if you say it feel it helped you, thats because of how manipulative it is. It would take them... not doing the shit we know they do, and being reviewed by an expert, not a student from the pace, and him saying it has changed for us to accept it.
For two, coallation is not causation.
For three, you're not an expert, you were a (supposedly) messed up kid who went through a wilderness camp that uses mind-fuck techniques. You FEEL it helped you, you dont KNOW it did, and nobody can demonstrate 2N does any good at all, just like every other program out there, TBS or wilderness or not.
For four, emotional arguements still don't hold any water.
Sorry HLA was so bad to you, if you're actually who you say you are and not a troll, at any rate.
Niles, give the kid a break. He/She is expressing and sharing their experiences. It was expressed in a commonly excepted language (English) so no need for interpretation, especially by someone who was never there.
Someone PLEASE sticky this magnum opus of manipulative programmie language.
:rofl:
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YOU put me to shame.
Yes, I'm glad we can agree on this.
Now THAT is hilarious.
I know. :D
Robert, I tried to make peace with you
No you didn't, you tried to cover your own ass from getting fired.
I really hope you can figure out why you have so much anger
Once again you mistake my condenscending attitude and disdain for you as anger, why not let the professionals handle the diagnoses?
I have had so few dealings with you that I can not even imagine how you came up with so much hostility
Well this isn't exactly true, see most of our dealings center on you pretending to be any number of things or hiding behind an anonymous tag thinking yourself to be clever, when in reality it never took much work figuring out it was you. Followed of course be a vehnement denial and you scurrying off to fight another day. Once again you're confused, I don't have any hostility towards you, you make my goal on here that much easier, in reality I appreciate you and all that you do, plus you're cheap entertainment.
I feel really, really sorry for you, but let's just give it a rest. As Who says, you'll figure it all out.
Oh it looks like I've got it all figured out, I wonder though if you should be feeling sorry for me, when you're the one who has once again put your job in jeporady.
Hmmm?
From: RobertBruce
To: Charly
Posted: 23 Dec 2006 22:15
Subject: Re: Peace
Yes I saw your other messages, I find nothing new in this post that wasnt in the others. You have no desire to see our goals realized concerning HLA. You're probably just scared that we might forward all of your idiotic postings onto your boss. Something you attempted to do several times on here to others. I have no desire to engage in any sort of civil discourse with you. If you lose your job over your actions, so be it. The fact that your son probably hates you is I believe justified. I know if you were my mother I'd hate you too. If this is to be the end of your postings I must say I'm sorry. Your idiotic ramblings have made for a good laugh.
From: Charly
To: RobertBruce
Posted: 23 Dec 2006 23:54
Subject: Re: Peace
You are incorrect. I have NEVER tried to find out where anyone worked. DJ knows that. I think someone else did, but it wasn't me. I'm not sure why you think that.
I actually DO believe HLA is a bad place and needs to close. Time will tell, but I doubt it goes beyond 1st quarter.
I'm sorry you have so much anger. I've actually had some good conversations via PM and email with a number of the other Fornits posters, and we havce a lot of common ground.
I won't bother you again.
Karen
From: RobertBruce
To: Charly
Posted: 24 Dec 2006 00:26
Subject: Re: Peace
I sure do appreciate it whack job. Oh and youre confusing my condesending tone and disdain for anger. You being mildly retarded prevents you from accomplishing anything that would actually bother me. As I said I found your posts to be comical and amusing.
You want to be careful about what you term HLA Karen, claiming it's a bad place will likely get you sued. Best of luck.
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Dude, posting PM's here is stepping over the line.
I thought the point of being here was we did NOT put people up in front of group like a fucking program!
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Karen supports them so much, let her see what it's like.
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Robert- This is a gentle warning. You are crossing the line and what you are posting publicly is libel. I was not fired, and you know it. You are, with knowledge of the falsehood, posting information that can be harmful to me professionally. I am going to ask you to edit your post and I will make the same request to the site owner. I do believe in free speech, but I WILL take action against libel.
Now run on back to the HLA thread and behave.
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::boohoo::
KIDS, BEHAVE!
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So you're saying you've never been fired from a job? Not one time in your entire life?
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Karen supports them so much, let her see what it's like.
I'd have to agree with this! :evil: :P :cry2: :rofl:
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Two wrongs don't make a right.
If you successfully piss her off all she will do is clam up and leave, and perhaps keep referring and recommending parents.
If she sticks around, then we can confront what she says... but not HER. There is a difference!
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YOU put me to shame.
Yes, I'm glad we can agree on this.
Now THAT is hilarious.
I know. :D
Robert, I tried to make peace with you
No you didn't, you tried to cover your own ass from [edited by admin at the request of Toker after "Charly" threatened to sue. I just wish "Charly" and Who would get a room already! I don't have time for this bullshit!]
I really hope you can figure out why you have so much anger
Once again you mistake my condenscending attitude and disdain for you as anger, why not let the professionals handle the diagnoses?
I have had so few dealings with you that I can not even imagine how you came up with so much hostility
Well this isn't exactly true, see most of our dealings center on you pretending to be any number of things or hiding behind an anonymous tag thinking yourself to be clever, when in reality it never took much work figuring out it was you. Followed of course be a vehnement denial and you scurrying off to fight another day. Once again you're confused, I don't have any hostility towards you, you make my goal on here that much easier, in reality I appreciate you and all that you do, plus you're cheap entertainment.
I feel really, really sorry for you, but let's just give it a rest. As Who says, you'll figure it all out.
Oh it looks like I've got it all figured out, I wonder though if you should be feeling sorry for me, when you're the one who has once again put your job in jeporady.
Hmmm?
From: RobertBruce
To: Charly
Posted: 23 Dec 2006 22:15
Subject: Re: Peace
Yes I saw your other messages, I find nothing new in this post that wasnt in the others. You have no desire to see our goals realized concerning HLA. You're probably just scared that we might forward all of your idiotic postings onto your boss. Something you attempted to do several times on here to others. I have no desire to engage in any sort of civil discourse with you. If you lose your job over your actions, so be it. The fact that your son probably hates you is I believe justified. I know if you were my mother I'd hate you too. If this is to be the end of your postings I must say I'm sorry. Your idiotic ramblings have made for a good laugh.
From: Charly
To: RobertBruce
Posted: 23 Dec 2006 23:54
Subject: Re: Peace
You are incorrect. I have NEVER tried to find out where anyone worked. DJ knows that. I think someone else did, but it wasn't me. I'm not sure why you think that.
I actually DO believe HLA is a bad place and needs to close. Time will tell, but I doubt it goes beyond 1st quarter.
I'm sorry you have so much anger. I've actually had some good conversations via PM and email with a number of the other Fornits posters, and we havce a lot of common ground.
I won't bother you again.
Karen
From: RobertBruce
To: Charly
Posted: 24 Dec 2006 00:26
Subject: Re: Peace
I sure do appreciate it whack job. Oh and youre confusing my condesending tone and disdain for anger. You being mildly retarded prevents you from accomplishing anything that would actually bother me. As I said I found your posts to be comical and amusing.
You want to be careful about what you term HLA Karen, claiming it's a bad place will likely get you sued. Best of luck.
Let's be sure to quote this all over the place!!!!!!! :rofl: :wave: :smokin:
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her . . . not HER.
Are we sure about that? (Could be a "he.")
Just sayin'
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That is correct, Robert. I so not owe you a recap of my professional history, but I have not been "fired" from a job. Your intent now and in the past has been to slander me personally and professionally, and you have crossed the line. I have written to the site owner and made the same request. Retract your statement or you are about to find your identity just as public as mine has become.
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That is correct, Robert. I so not owe you a recap of my professional history, but I have not been "fired" from a job. Your intent now and in the past has been to slander me personally and professionally, and you have crossed the line. I have written to the site owner and made the same request. Retract your statement or you are about to find your identity just as public as mine has become.
So Karen in Dallas, you were NOT fired from your job? You deny those allegations? Have you ever gotten high or had sex with animals???
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ::both:: ::both:: ::both::
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TOKER- You just re-published the libel, so I am making the same request of you. Edit your post to take out the libelous remark which defames me professionally.
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Do us all a favor and keep fornits out of your bullshit, OK?
Ginger is sick of being sued and editing posts.
If I were a mod, and I'm not, Id tell all of you to cut it out or I'd ban all of you. Why? Not censorship, not willing to deal with lawsuits.
But well, I'm not a mod. So... you can do wtf ever you want.
P.S. I doubt the servers are physically in the USA anyway, Karen :wink:
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That's the thing that sucks about being an attorney... reputation is EVERYTHING!! ::hehehmm::
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :evil:
You won't be able to afford to send your kid to MCDONALDS! ::both::
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TOKER- You just re-published the libel, so I am making the same request of you. Edit your post to take out the libelous remark which defames me professionally.
Silly Kitty- Anon posts can't be edited.. :roll: :P
You sure are one dumb lawyer... :rofl:
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That is correct, Robert. I so not owe you a recap of my professional history, but I have not been "fired" from a job. Your intent now and in the past has been to slander me personally and professionally, and you have crossed the line. I have written to the site owner and made the same request. Retract your statement or you are about to find your identity just as public as mine has become.
So Karen in Dallas, you were NOT fired from your job? You deny those allegations? Have you ever gotten high or had sex with animals???
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ::both:: ::both:: ::both::
::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha2:: ::bwahaha2:: ::bwahaha2:: ::rocker:: ::rocker:: ::nod:: :scared: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :wave: ::bangin:: ::both:: ::both:: ::blushing:: :smokin: :smokin: ::both:: ::both:: ::spam::
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That is correct, Robert. I so not owe you a recap of my professional history, but I have not been "fired" from a job. Your intent now and in the past has been to slander me personally and professionally, and you have crossed the line. I have written to the site owner and made the same request. Retract your statement or you are about to find your identity just as public as mine has become.
Get over yourself Karen you aren't accomplishing anything. I've done nothing different from what you've done on many occasions to many posters. Remember just because you were hiding when you made comments doesn't change the fact that you made them. Add that to the fact even if I have somehow committed libel against you, I haven't revealed your identity thus no harm can be inflicted. As to my own identity, drop the name if you think you've got it, countless others have tried and they've all guessed wrong. So fire away.
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Well then, I guess you just put the burden on Ginger to edit your anon posts. I'm sure she'll be pleased.
What happens is that I get a court order to compel Ginger to disclose the identities of the posters and IP addresses so that I can pursue my claim for libel. I also have to bring in Ginger and the site, due to the anon posts. This is not something I care to do, but I WILL do it because in the case of libel to my professional reputation, it is almost required.
You can insult me personally all you like and I'll just go away if I choose, but I suggest you remove the libel.
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Get over yourself Karen you aren't accomplishing anything. I've done nothing different from what you've done on many occasions to many posters. Remember just because you were hiding when you made comments doesn't change the fact that you made them. Add that to the fact even if I have somehow committed libel against you, I haven't revealed your identity thus no harm can be inflicted. As to my own identity, drop the name if you think you've got it, countless others have tried and they've all guessed wrong. So fire away.
Yep.. Dumb, dumb, dumb...
Where'd you get your law degree, K.? :rofl:
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Well then, I guess you just put the burden on Ginger to edit your anon posts. I'm sure she'll be pleased.
What happens is that I get a court order to compel Ginger to disclose the identities of the posters and IP addresses so that I can pursue my claim for libel. I also have to bring in Ginger and the site, due to the anon posts. This is not something I care to do, but I WILL do it because in the case of libel to my professional reputation, it is almost required.
You can insult me personally all you like and I'll just go away if I choose, but I suggest you remove the libel.
It'll be Ginger's call to decide whether it's even legally necessary for her to do it. Anyway, are we sure it's libel? You ARE pretty fucking stupid... :rofl:
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Robert- I have never libeled anyone on this site. You have. My identity is known to everyone on this site, so that doesn't help you. TSW recently made sure my full name was posted in a thread, so that doesn't help you. I suggest you do a little research. You have crossed the line. I don't know your name, but I will if you don't remove the libel. Don't be stupid.
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No you won't but it doesn't matter I changed it for you crybaby. I didn't do it because I'm concerned at all with your impotent threats or crybaby antics, I simply don't want you to waste Ginger's time. You already waste enough of her bandwidth and God's oxygen. In fact one could almost term you a oxygen thief?
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And you wonder why people hate lawyers?
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This is not something I care to do, but I WILL do it because in the case of libel to my professional reputation, it is almost required.
Are you related to Sue Scheff?
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So Karen in Dallas, you were NOT fired from your job? You deny those allegations? Have you ever gotten high or had sex with animals???
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: ::both:: ::both:: ::both::
Perfect!
Well, Charly? Have you ever gotten high or had sex with animals? If you find the question offensive, consider how fucked up it would be if we were asking it in person with you on the hot seat outnumbered and unable to escape or threaten litigation. THAT is what happens every stinkin day in your much vaunted "therapy" programs. I just laugh to keep from crying every time one of you thin skinned hypocrites show your true colors like this. That really is what Fornits is all about, after all. You think you're winning this argument and you keep on going on and on and on. But any reasonably intelligent, sane person who comes accross this battle would easily see you for the sadistic control freaks you are.
My highest regards to your son, Charly. I feel for him.
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Actually, Ginger, much of what is on this site is offensive. As you said, "any reasonably intelligent, sane person who comes accross this battle" will find it so and not be able to sort out any important information. That is a shame.
Thin skinned is not the issue, Ginger. Legal rights and remedies are. I have not been fired from a job, and it is libel to state that I have.
If someone wants to ASK me if I have ever gotten high or had sex with animals, that is not libel. They can ask. If they state that I have, that is accusing me of a crime, and since it is false, it is also libel.
Would you like me to teach an online law school course on slander and libel?
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You are such a dork, Karen. Of course we don't! :rofl:
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Would you like someone to tuck you in and read you a bed time story you crazy whackjob crybaby?
Actually, Ginger, much of what is on this site is offensive
Yes idiot, largely from your own contributions! Disagree with me on this nutjob, I'd love to showcase just how disgusting and stupid you truly are.
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Karen,
Would impersonating someone be considered illegal? Particularly if you libeled them in so doing?
Dysfunktionjunktion, JulieTheGreat ring a bell. Or does your apology (truse) let you off the hook?
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Whoops.
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Thin skinned is not the issue, Ginger. Legal rights and remedies are. I have not been fired from a job, and it is libel to state that I have.
So you never worked as a whore either? :question:
Just a question... :rofl:
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You are such a dork, Karen. Of course we don't! :rofl:
Actually I'd like some private 'instruction' from Karen; I'd be willing to pay for it! :D
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Here you go whacko this took all of about eleven seconds of research. Imagien what I could dig up if I tried.
Robert, what does it make you look like to be the self-appointed one to give everyone what you think they deserve? you look like a spiteful jerk. oh, wait- you are one
Could you as an authority on libel tell me if that counts or not?
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Actually, Ginger, much of what is on this site is offensive
Yes idiot, largely from your own contributions! Disagree with me on this nutjob, I'd love to showcase just how disgusting and stupid you truly are.
-goo-goo-ga-joob!
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Deborah- No, that is not libel because your identities are not known. Mine is. You can't slander or libel a fictitious name. There has to be harm or the strong potential for harm.
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Here's something fun, I don't have a clue as to what your last name is or where to find it. Also I'm not positive that you were never fired. Am I in the clear now whack job?
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Deborah- No, that is not libel because your identities are not known. Mine is. You can't slander or libel a fictitious name. There has to be harm or the strong potential for harm.
Wait wait wait, Dysfunction's identity is known. Does your claim still stand?
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Deborah- No, that is not libel because your identities are not known. Mine is. You can't slander or libel a fictitious name. There has to be harm or the strong potential for harm.
Actually, both of those people's names have been posted here. Charly hardly identifies you anyway. Are you expecting future employers or friends/business associates to drop by?
And how about posting that my son remained at HLA because I lost custody. I believe that is libel/slander. Might you consider finding that post and editing it? Right after, you divulge who at HLA fed you that crap, or if you just said it to slander me. If the former, you might consider your sources in the future. Wouldn't want to be playin the role of Patsy.
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Karen why so quiet hon?
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Karen why so quiet hon?
I guess she knows she's pwned by Ginger. :rofl:
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Would you like me to teach an online law school course on slander and libel?
Sure, why not?
First question:
Thin skinned is not the issue, Ginger. Legal rights and remedies are. I have not been fired from a job, and it is libel to state that I have.
right after
As you said, "any reasonably intelligent, sane person who comes accross this battle" will find it so and not be able to sort out any important information. That is a shame.
Now, my question two part and it is this. Being that you state yourself, and I'm inclined to believe that you truly believe, that in context this would not be a credible statement, how would you show damage? And, absent any reasonable definition of loss, what would distinguish such an action from your garden variety, Dewey, Cheetham & Howe (http://http://dchfans.org/dchfans/) style action?
For extra credit, a 5 min monitored phone call to your therapis and shits and giggles, shouldn't you be thanking whomever did you this favor? I mean, would you really want to find out the hard way that you're working for an idiot who would make important business decisions based on unsubstantiated statements on the internet? I wouldn't. In fact, I often pitch this site to a new friend or colleague first time they start to annoy me. They either bounce off or engage on a level fitting my interest. Saves me a lot of time and trouble; it's like a free asshole detector.
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Karen,
Would impersonating someone be considered illegal? Particularly if you libeled them in so doing?
Dysfunktionjunktion, JulieTheGreat ring a bell. Or does your apology (truse) let you off the hook?
See, Karen? I knew it was you all along with those phony logins even though you kept saying "I'm not Karen!", which, BTW, I have NEVER, EVER done, as you had asserted many times. I have only one login name and have never at any time had another one (Mods can back me up on this one).
But I'm not posting to bash you, Karen. It's quite the opposite.
All the while when you and Anne (from Minnesota) were tag-team-bashing me with ad-hominems not based in reality ("fat, middle-aged loser," etc, etc), I kept plugging away (like all the others on the case) with the facts and documentation. Eventually it reached a tipping point.
At some point you went from calling me a "crazy, disgruntled loser ex-staff bent on revenge for being fired" (which I was not, as you already know) to telling me "I think that HLA is indeed an abusive facility and I'd like to see it closed!"[/i]
This is what's called an "epiphany." And I'm glad you had it.
My point? Even the most strident program supporters, when properly educated to the facts, cannot continue to support these institutions. This, of course, excludes those program supporters that derive their income from the programs. These people will die before they ever admit what Karen eventually did.
Amoral Annie from Minnesota fits this description (money grubbing program pimp) and will therefore never be contrite like Karen.
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Karen is it true that you sold your ass on the streets on Dallas?
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Karen is it true that you sold your ass on the streets *on Dallas?
Oopps...damn I'm high...
I meant IN Dallas, not the old TV show. ... :lol:
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As the brunt of "JulieTheGreat" I thought it was hilarious.
There are too many people in this world with no sense of humor. Many of them try to be humorists. This frequently does turn out funny, just not in the way they meant. :-)
Julie Cochrane
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Karen is it true that you sold your ass on the streets *on Dallas?
Oopps...damn I'm high...
I meant IN Dallas, not the old TV show. ... :lol:
Karen raises donkeys? Dang, wonder what she uses them for?
I guess there's a lot of things I don't know about Texas' ranching industry.
Julie
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Thin skinned is not the issue, Ginger. Legal rights and remedies are. I have not been fired from a job, and it is libel to state that I have.
So you never worked as a whore either? :question:
(http://http://www.crackwhoreconfessions.com/images/karen_crack_whore_confession.jpg)
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Oh man, that is so wrong! :o
:rofl:
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Deborah- No, that is not libel because your identities are not known. Mine is. You can't slander or libel a fictitious name. There has to be harm or the strong potential for harm.
AFAIK you have to prove you were actually harmed. Tell me if i'm wrong on that.
Karen. Look. People hate you here. I tried to negotiate and smooth things over and things might have subsided until you started publicly whining about libel on this site.
NO employer is going to read 160+ pages of Fornits and believe anything about you. Good luck proving you were harmed by anything that was said here. I doubt you could make a good case out of this.
Attempting to censor anything on the internet is utterly futile. There is always an archive, always a copy. Once something is on the internet it DOES NOT DISSAPPEAR. Period.
Let it go Karen. Time and time again you respond to provocation. You take the bait and you add to it, ensuring the conflict rages on and on and on. That is why you are a lawyer and not a peacemaker.
Whether or not RB's accusations are true or not (i cannot say either way. I don't trust anybody), trying to shut him up is pointless and futile. I think you know this. The question remains: If you know it is pointless to rattle your saber, why do you?
My guess? You feed on conflict... So do many others. I don't expect this to end here, or for you to just turn the other cheek (ultimately the easiest way to end conflict), but i would hope you at least ask yourself why you feel the need to respond to things you know don't have a chance in hell of damaging you. The more you prolong it, the more you make an issue out of it, the larger the conflict will get. You are making an issue out of nothing. I only hope you know why you are doing it.
As I have said before. I wash my hands of the issue. Yes TSW fired the first shot but you knew it was going to happen. My hope was that you would be mature/wise enough to ignore it.
I'm not blaming you, or anybody in this. Ultimately, however, the only fault ever worth looking at is one's own. It is the only person you have full control over (despite the 12 step cop-out of "it's all in god's hands(we weren't responsable)" to feel better about the guilt of past misdeeds).
You cannot change your past, but you can change your role in your future. Without your role in this conflict, it cannot continue, you choose to prolong it.
As much as this post seems harsh please do not take offense. I really do have best wishes for you and your family.
cheers,
Mike
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As I have said before. I wash my hands of the issue. Yes TSW fired the first shot but you knew it was going to happen. My hope was that you would be mature/wise enough to ignore it.
Well, this isn't exactly true. Before there was a KareninDallas thread, Karen and Anne (from Minnesota, aka Ottawa5) had been badgering abuse victims of CEDU and other programs for months (actually over a year I believe). The K.I.D. thread was simply a response of those who were fed up with the seriously fucked up, amoral anonymous posts by Karen and Annie. They put the pieces together and fingerd the authors - accurately, I might add. Once Amoral Annie and Karen were successfully ID'ed and exposed, the real fight began, replete with threats of lawsuits, etc.
What still sticks with me though, is the fact that seemingly normal people, when confident that they can maintain anonymity, show their true nature (due to the smug arrogance of feeling invulnerable to consequences), and it's usually disgusting and vile.
This brings my attention to the programs, where the secrecy and complete control afforded to staff members lead them to verbally, emotionally, physically and sexually abuse their victims - they believe they will never be caught, so the true dark side comes out.
Ask yourself, program parents, if you yourselves can be so utterly inhumane to victims over the internet, can you imagine how sick and twisted the behaviors of the people you hired to 'treat' your kid are when they know there is virtually no mechanism by which they can get caught and, if they do get caught, that they just move to another facility and start it all over again?
Think about it.
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Thin skinned is not the issue, Ginger. Legal rights and remedies are. I have not been fired from a job, and it is libel to state that I have.
So you never worked as a whore either? :question:
(http://http://www.crackwhoreconfessions.com/images/karen_crack_whore_confession.jpg)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Nor can she change the fact that she is a friggin dumbshit.
::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha2:: ::ftard:: ::nod:: ::bangin:: :wave: ::both:: ::both:: :rofl: :evil: :nworthy: :nworthy: :tup:
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As I have said before. I wash my hands of the issue. Yes TSW fired the first shot but you knew it was going to happen. My hope was that you would be mature/wise enough to ignore it.
Well, this isn't exactly true. Before there was a KareninDallas thread, Karen and Anne (from Minnesota, aka Ottawa5) had been badgering abuse victims of CEDU and other programs for months (actually over a year I believe). The K.I.D. thread was simply a response of those who were fed up with the seriously fucked up, amoral anonymous posts by Karen and Annie. They put the pieces together and fingerd the authors - accurately, I might add. Once Amoral Annie and Karen were successfully ID'ed and exposed, the real fight began, replete with threats of lawsuits, etc.
Oh that i know. I was referring to the first shot after the new years "truce".
What still sticks with me though, is the fact that seemingly normal people, when confident that they can maintain anonymity, show their true nature (due to the smug arrogance of feeling invulnerable to consequences), and it's usually disgusting and vile.
This brings my attention to the programs, where the secrecy and complete control afforded to staff members lead them to verbally, emotionally, physically and sexually abuse their victims - they believe they will never be caught, so the true dark side comes out.
Ask yourself, program parents, if you yourselves can be so utterly inhumane to victims over the internet, can you imagine how sick and twisted the behaviors of the people you hired to 'treat' your kid are when they know there is virtually no mechanism by which they can get caught and, if they do get caught, that they just move to another facility and start it all over again?
Think about it.
Everybody has a dark side. Only those who don't care about the welfare of others use anonymity as a shield. It offers a sense of safety... freedom from consequence. And as such, i give guest posts in general, very little respect. The system works.
Cryptic isn't it.
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If Karen applied as much energy to speaking out against WWASPS and other program she finds abusive I bet she could have helped a lot of kids over the past couple years. She seems like a smart lady, just on the wrong side of the battle is all.
*edit for those who dont recognize sarcasm... this is satire
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Oh I wouldnt call her that.
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We could use a few obsessive control freak parents on the anti program side...
*satire people, satire...
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We could use a few obsessive control freak parents on the anti program side...
*Slams head on keyboard*
so now they get it......
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Everybody has a dark side. Only those who don't care about the welfare of others use anonymity as a shield. It offers a sense of safety... freedom from consequence. And as such, i give guest posts in general, very little respect. The system works.
Cryptic isn't it.
There are many regulars here that are guilty of this.
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What's your point? :D
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Everybody has a dark side. Only those who don't care about the welfare of others use anonymity as a shield. It offers a sense of safety... freedom from consequence. And as such, i give guest posts in general, very little respect. The system works.
I couldn't disagree more. Most of the useful information I find posted here is done so by anonymous posters dropping by to tell their story. TSW has thousands of posts and I don't take anything he says seriously. I dont really care who says what, I think it's the message that is important. So many people are used to arguing the people instead of arguments they don't know what to do when an anonymous critic steps up. The founding fathers during the revolution wrote under surnames, does that mean we should not take seriously what they were saying? I love this forum but people shouldnt forget the thing that made it great is unmoderated discussion no matter how brutal that might be.
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What's your point? :D
That there are many registers users that make a point of doing this. :lol:
I suggest that all guests (including myself) stop posting as guests as of right now or kill themselves right now for the sake of dignity. psy is a courageous young chap for logging in every time; we are mere fleeting shadows & proverbial turds in the punchbowl... It's time for a flush. :rofl:
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I couldn't disagree more. Most of the useful information I find posted here is done so by anonymous posters dropping by to tell their story. TSW has thousands of posts and I don't take anything he says seriously. I dont really care who says what, I think it's the message that is important. So many people are used to arguing the people instead of arguments they don't know what to do when an anonymous critic steps up. The founding fathers during the revolution wrote under surnames, does that mean we should not take seriously what they were saying? I love this forum but people shouldnt forget the thing that made it great is unmoderated discussion no matter how brutal that might be.
Anons are a bunch of fucking PUSSIES....
Wait a minute....
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Most of the useful information I find posted here is done so by anonymous posters dropping by to tell their story. TSW has thousands of posts and I don't take anything he says seriously. I dont really care who says what, I think it's the message that is important. So many people are used to arguing the people instead of arguments they don't know what to do when an anonymous critic steps up. The founding fathers during the revolution wrote under surnames, does that mean we should not take seriously what they were saying? I love this forum but people shouldnt forget the thing that made it great is unmoderated discussion no matter how brutal that might be.
Yep, me too. 'Cept I'm not as hard on TSW as you. :)
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Deborah- No, that is not libel because your identities are not known. Mine is. You can't slander or libel a fictitious name. There has to be harm or the strong potential for harm.
AFAIK you have to prove you were actually harmed. Tell me if i'm wrong on that.
Karen. Look. People hate you here. I tried to negotiate and smooth things over and things might have subsided until you started publicly whining about libel on this site.
NO employer is going to read 160+ pages of Fornits and believe anything about you. Good luck proving you were harmed by anything that was said here. I doubt you could make a good case out of this.
Attempting to censor anything on the internet is utterly futile. There is always an archive, always a copy. Once something is on the internet it DOES NOT DISSAPPEAR. Period.
Let it go Karen. Time and time again you respond to provocation. You take the bait and you add to it, ensuring the conflict rages on and on and on. That is why you are a lawyer and not a peacemaker.
Whether or not RB's accusations are true or not (i cannot say either way. I don't trust anybody), trying to shut him up is pointless and futile. I think you know this. The question remains: If you know it is pointless to rattle your saber, why do you?
My guess? You feed on conflict... So do many others. I don't expect this to end here, or for you to just turn the other cheek (ultimately the easiest way to end conflict), but i would hope you at least ask yourself why you feel the need to respond to things you know don't have a chance in hell of damaging you. The more you prolong it, the more you make an issue out of it, the larger the conflict will get. You are making an issue out of nothing. I only hope you know why you are doing it.
As I have said before. I wash my hands of the issue. Yes TSW fired the first shot but you knew it was going to happen. My hope was that you would be mature/wise enough to ignore it.
I'm not blaming you, or anybody in this. Ultimately, however, the only fault ever worth looking at is one's own. It is the only person you have full control over (despite the 12 step cop-out of "it's all in god's hands(we weren't responsable)" to feel better about the guilt of past misdeeds).
You cannot change your past, but you can change your role in your future. Without your role in this conflict, it cannot continue, you choose to prolong it.
As much as this post seems harsh please do not take offense. I really do have best wishes for you and your family.
cheers,
Mike
I hope Karen does sue this board, it's evil, bad for the people who get libeled, bad for the participants who often appear too disordered to realize what is healthy, bad for the few parents who get caught up in its lies when they should be concentrating on getting help for their children.
Go for it Karen, this kid named psy is giving YOU legal advice about whether this is libel, is that funny? (equally funny : he's a regular at this site and he's worried that YOU thrive on conflict, funnier and funnier).
Check out the thread and general web postings on Susan Scheff's suit and also new federal legislation about cyber-stalking which may well cover situations like yours.
Sue this unholy place out of existance, make it melt under the weight of litigation costs, and from what I hear of its meager revenues that shouldn't be such a big weight.
Start by getting some letters from potential clients who were put off hiring you by the libels posted here, go after the board, its owner and the posters themselves.
And I bet others come forward to join you.
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I hope Karen does sue this board, it's evil, bad for the people who get libeled, bad for the participants who often appear too disordered to realize what is healthy, bad for the few parents who get caught up in its lies when they should be concentrating on getting help for their children.
Go for it Karen, this kid named psy is giving YOU legal advice about whether this is libel, is that funny? (equally funny : he's a regular at this site and he's worried that YOU thrive on conflict, funnier and funnier).
Check out the thread and general web postings on Susan Scheff's suit and also new federal legislation about cyber-stalking which may well cover situations like yours.
Sue this unholy place out of existance, make it melt under the weight of litigation costs, and from what I hear of its meager revenues that shouldn't be such a big weight.
Start by getting some letters from potential clients who were put off hiring you by the libels posted here, go after the board, its owner and the posters themselves.
And I bet others come forward to join you.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Be my guest. Add to Ginger's collection.
http://www.dchfans.org/dchfans/ (http://www.dchfans.org/dchfans/)
::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::unhappy:: ::stab:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha::
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Deborah- No, that is not libel because your identities are not known. Mine is. You can't slander or libel a fictitious name. There has to be harm or the strong potential for harm.
AFAIK you have to prove you were actually harmed. Tell me if i'm wrong on that.
Karen. Look. People hate you here. I tried to negotiate and smooth things over and things might have subsided until you started publicly whining about libel on this site.
NO employer is going to read 160+ pages of Fornits and believe anything about you. Good luck proving you were harmed by anything that was said here. I doubt you could make a good case out of this.
Attempting to censor anything on the internet is utterly futile. There is always an archive, always a copy. Once something is on the internet it DOES NOT DISSAPPEAR. Period.
Let it go Karen. Time and time again you respond to provocation. You take the bait and you add to it, ensuring the conflict rages on and on and on. That is why you are a lawyer and not a peacemaker.
Whether or not RB's accusations are true or not (i cannot say either way. I don't trust anybody), trying to shut him up is pointless and futile. I think you know this. The question remains: If you know it is pointless to rattle your saber, why do you?
My guess? You feed on conflict... So do many others. I don't expect this to end here, or for you to just turn the other cheek (ultimately the easiest way to end conflict), but i would hope you at least ask yourself why you feel the need to respond to things you know don't have a chance in hell of damaging you. The more you prolong it, the more you make an issue out of it, the larger the conflict will get. You are making an issue out of nothing. I only hope you know why you are doing it.
As I have said before. I wash my hands of the issue. Yes TSW fired the first shot but you knew it was going to happen. My hope was that you would be mature/wise enough to ignore it.
I'm not blaming you, or anybody in this. Ultimately, however, the only fault ever worth looking at is one's own. It is the only person you have full control over (despite the 12 step cop-out of "it's all in god's hands(we weren't responsable)" to feel better about the guilt of past misdeeds).
You cannot change your past, but you can change your role in your future. Without your role in this conflict, it cannot continue, you choose to prolong it.
As much as this post seems harsh please do not take offense. I really do have best wishes for you and your family.
cheers,
Mike
I hope Karen does sue this board, it's evil, bad for the people who get libeled, bad for the participants who often appear too disordered to realize what is healthy, bad for the few parents who get caught up in its lies when they should be concentrating on getting help for their children.
Go for it Karen, this kid named psy is giving YOU legal advice about whether this is libel, is that funny? (equally funny : he's a regular at this site and he's worried that YOU thrive on conflict, funnier and funnier).
Check out the thread and general web postings on Susan Scheff's suit and also new federal legislation about cyber-stalking which may well cover situations like yours.
Sue this unholy place out of existance, make it melt under the weight of litigation costs, and from what I hear of its meager revenues that shouldn't be such a big weight.
Start by getting some letters from potential clients who were put off hiring you by the libels posted here, go after the board, its owner and the posters themselves.
And I bet others come forward to join you.
One of the funnier trolls I've read in a while. Three cocks out of five. :tup: :tup: :tup:
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I see Karen is back pretending to be someone else. Some things never change. :roll:
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I don't quite know why i am bothering to respond to this troll... Perhaps i am just bored.
I hope Karen does sue this board, it's evil, bad for the people who get libeled, bad for the participants who often appear too disordered to realize what is healthy, bad for the few parents who get caught up in its lies when they should be concentrating on getting help for their children.
Karen is accusing RB, not the board of libel idiot. You can't sue a content provider for things users post. This matter is between Karen and RB.
Go for it Karen, this kid named psy is giving YOU legal advice about whether this is libel, is that funny?
Was i giving her legal advice? No. Was i giving her common sense advice? Yes.
(equally funny : he's a regular at this site and he's worried that YOU thrive on conflict, funnier and funnier).
I also post on ST (and am one of the very very few who have not been banned over there). Go find a post of mine (besides a recent one one to TSW) that is intended to provoke conflict. Please... Read my msg history.
Check out the thread and general web postings on Susan Scheff's suit and also new federal legislation about cyber-stalking which may well cover situations like yours.
Sue won by default. The defendant had recently lost her home from Katrina and could not afford representation. The "victory" was hollow.
Sure. Go ahead and use untested, poorly written, constitutionally unsound, cyber-stalking legislation. Base the entire case on it I dare you. It's about time somebody struck that down.
Sue this unholy place out of existance, make it melt under the weight of litigation costs, and from what I hear of its meager revenues that shouldn't be such a big weight.
See the X-mas tree. I've yet to add a bunch more ornaments on it. How the fuck would you know how much revenue Fornits recieves?
Plus, as i've already said multiple times, Karen can't sue Fornits as it is.
Start by getting some letters from potential clients who were put off hiring you by the libels posted here, go after the board, its owner and the posters themselves.
And I bet others come forward to join you.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Karen knows that she has no case for damages. If she sued it would be on the grounds of malicious intent. AFAIK (stands to reason) She would also have to prove RB knew his allegations were libelous.
Please. Mess with us worthless junkie malcontents. We know nothing.
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I got the strangest fuckin letter in the mail today ....
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I got the strangest fuckin letter in the mail today ....
Oh please tell me you put it up on DCHfans. Where's the "pray" emoticon.
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I got the strangest fuckin letter in the mail today ....
Does this mean that I get to sue Karen as well? She has lied many times on here saying I was fired from HLA. Isn't that libel? Sure sounds like it!
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Can I sue her for internet disruption?
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I got the strangest fuckin letter in the mail today ....
Does this mean that I get to sue Karen as well? She has lied many times on here saying I was fired from HLA. Isn't that libel? Sure sounds like it!
if(( it had malicious intent towards you OR did harm you ) AND ( Karen knew it was not true OR didn't know if it was true )) { you have a case }
AFAIK IANAL
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I got the strangest fuckin letter in the mail today ....
That crazy letter in the straight forum isn't even that funny! Give it up!
It is to those of us who know the players and the subjects of the posts. Don't read it if you don't find the humor in it.
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I got the strangest fuckin letter in the mail today ....
That crazy letter in the straight forum isn't even that funny! Give it up!
It is to those of us who know the players and the subjects of the posts. Don't read it if you don't find the humor in it.
-Or read it again and again until you slowly start to go insane.
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Does this mean that I get to sue Karen as well? She has lied many times on here saying I was fired from HLA. Isn't that libel? Sure sounds like it!
Your real name has to be connected wiith the libel.
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Does this mean that I get to sue Karen as well? She has lied many times on here saying I was fired from HLA. Isn't that libel? Sure sounds like it!
Your real name has to be connected wiith the libel.
What a sorry bitch trying to use scare tactics. :flame:
One of today's goals: TROLL THE FUCK OUT OF KAREN!!! :rofl:
Keep 'em coming, people.... :lol:
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True. It ain't near as much fun as when she's here. Her posts are so outrageous that if you didn't know it was her, you'd swear it was one of us trolling.
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True. It ain't near as much fun as when she's here. Her posts are so outrageous that if you didn't know it was her, you'd swear it was one of us trolling.
Well that goes without saying -- she'd have to be here to make it worthwhile.
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True. It ain't near as much fun as when she's here. Her posts are so outrageous that if you didn't know it was her, you'd swear it was one of us trolling.
Well that goes without saying -- she'd have to be here to make it worthwhile.
She's here. She's just desperately trying not to respond. Pretty soon she'll wiggle out of the straightjacket that curbs her posting and the forum will once again light up with her infinite wisdom. :roll:
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Well I can do up my hair with a dead rat, slide my fat ass into a dress made out of feed sacks, put on some gaudy make up that screams crack whore, and beat my head with a ball peen hammer for 45 minutes to come up with a rough approximation of Karen for you all if it will help.
:rofl: :rofl: We'd still know it's you, but thanks anyway.
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My son who regulars this forum asked me to chime in, I am an attorney. Karen is bluffing, she has no case. I am a criminal attorney, who actually goes to court, not some back room house lawyer for some cooperate board. Rest easy, Karen has probably never even seen the inside of a courthouse. If she wants to sue you for libel, take the chance to take a digital picture of her in court and post it here for all of us.
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I don't quite know why i am bothering to respond to this troll... Perhaps i am just bored.
I hope Karen does sue this board, it's evil, bad for the people who get libeled, bad for the participants who often appear too disordered to realize what is healthy, bad for the few parents who get caught up in its lies when they should be concentrating on getting help for their children.
Karen is accusing RB, not the board of libel idiot. You can't sue a content provider for things users post. This matter is between Karen and RB.
Go for it Karen, this kid named psy is giving YOU legal advice about whether this is libel, is that funny?
Was i giving her legal advice? No. Was i giving her common sense advice? Yes.
(equally funny : he's a regular at this site and he's worried that YOU thrive on conflict, funnier and funnier).
I also post on ST (and am one of the very very few who have not been banned over there). Go find a post of mine (besides a recent one one to TSW) that is intended to provoke conflict. Please... Read my msg history.
Check out the thread and general web postings on Susan Scheff's suit and also new federal legislation about cyber-stalking which may well cover situations like yours.
Sue won by default. The defendant had recently lost her home from Katrina and could not afford representation. The "victory" was hollow.
Sure. Go ahead and use untested, poorly written, constitutionally unsound, cyber-stalking legislation. Base the entire case on it I dare you. It's about time somebody struck that down.
Sue this unholy place out of existance, make it melt under the weight of litigation costs, and from what I hear of its meager revenues that shouldn't be such a big weight.
See the X-mas tree. I've yet to add a bunch more ornaments on it. How the fuck would you know how much revenue Fornits recieves?
Plus, as i've already said multiple times, Karen can't sue Fornits as it is.
Start by getting some letters from potential clients who were put off hiring you by the libels posted here, go after the board, its owner and the posters themselves.
And I bet others come forward to join you.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Karen knows that she has no case for damages. If she sued it would be on the grounds of malicious intent. AFAIK (stands to reason) She would also have to prove RB knew his allegations were libelous.
Please. Mess with us worthless junkie malcontents. We know nothing.
Why indeed are you responding Sonny Boy, don't tell me it's because YOU "feed on conflict"?
Of course it's unlikely you've got the insight or sense of irony to recognize that. Or see how funny it is that you reflect on the reason for your post, justify it ("bored"), and so go ahead with your obsessive behavior anyway.
You little creep, you can't give anyone "common sense" advice, first you'd have to have "common sense". What are you anyway, an RA or something at some second rate school somewhere, crying your ass off about some boarding school your parents surely sent you to just to get your worthless self out of their sight.
Karen sue RB by all means, sue the board too, it's a public nuisance, look at the scum like psy that fester here. Psy like all losers fall into the trap of thinking something can't happen just because it hasn't happen yet. Of course you can sue the board: after all, the moderator is offering anonymity and then using the ability to identify IP addresses to out people. Not to mention refusing to remove posts that are reported as libelous. Another real slime bucket, that one.
And somebody trying to be clever a few posts back suggested that we should like at Cassandra's collection post of all her legal trouble.
Excellent idea, Karen! And you being an attorney it should be easy. Call up Q & Q as well as the many others with a bone to pick with fornits. Pool resources. Find out what plaintiff law firms are funneling money into this site to pimp for lawsuit leads. Find out the connections between said plaintiff law firms and certain posters (maybe named Steve, I thinking), info that's gonna make it really hard for such people to be credible witnesses at HLA or anywhere.
Collect info and start thinking "class action" and criminal versus civil.
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btw, psy your posts at ST only show you're a phony as well as stupid. Like you can post there, pretend you're just a nice guy with a cause then come here and be yourself (conflict junkie that is) and nobody will notice.
Stay here kid, it's clearly where you belong. You might even be high functioning in this company.
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btw, psy your posts at ST only show you're a phony as well as stupid. Like you can post there, pretend you're just a nice guy with a cause then come here and be yourself (conflict junkie that is) and nobody will notice.
Stay here kid, it's clearly where you belong. You might even be high functioning in this company.
You mentally challenged jerkoff...If you don't play the "nice" game on ST, you get banned with a quickness. It's necessary to mollycoddle the oh-so-sensitive pinheads on ST. Not here, though...cum dumpster.
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Excellent idea, Karen! And you being an attorney it should be easy. Call up Q & Q as well as the many others with a bone to pick with fornits. Pool resources. Find out what plaintiff law firms are funneling money into this site to pimp for lawsuit leads. Find out the connections between said plaintiff law firms and certain posters (maybe named Steve, I thinking), info that's gonna make it really hard for such people to be credible witnesses at HLA or anywhere.
Collect info and start thinking "class action" and criminal versus civil.
*YAWN*...You gonna bite, little dog, or do you just bark? You really are a monotonous bastard. Karen would have to disprove any posts she finds defamatory. She came here knowing what it was all about, anyway. The prog-people must really be in a tailspin these days, look at them crawling out from under the rocks and yelping and threatening. What a bunch of mediocrities...
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Why indeed are you responding Sonny Boy, don't tell me it's because YOU "feed on conflict"?
Of course it's unlikely you've got the insight or sense of irony to recognize that. Or see how funny it is that you reflect on the reason for your post, justify it ("bored"), and so go ahead with your obsessive behavior anyway.
You little creep, you can't give anyone "common sense" advice, first you'd have to have "common sense". What are you anyway, an RA or something at some second rate school somewhere, crying your ass off about some boarding school your parents surely sent you to just to get your worthless self out of their sight.
Karen sue RB by all means, sue the board too, it's a public nuisance, look at the scum like psy that fester here. Psy like all losers fall into the trap of thinking something can't happen just because it hasn't happen yet. Of course you can sue the board: after all, the moderator is offering anonymity and then using the ability to identify IP addresses to out people. Not to mention refusing to remove posts that are reported as libelous. Another real slime bucket, that one.
And somebody trying to be clever a few posts back suggested that we should like at Cassandra's collection post of all her legal trouble.
Excellent idea, Karen! And you being an attorney it should be easy. Call up Q & Q as well as the many others with a bone to pick with fornits. Pool resources. Find out what plaintiff law firms are funneling money into this site to pimp for lawsuit leads. Find out the connections between said plaintiff law firms and certain posters (maybe named Steve, I thinking), info that's gonna make it really hard for such people to be credible witnesses at HLA or anywhere.
Collect info and start thinking "class action" and criminal versus civil.
Wow. Someone needs an enema, if that stick doesn't come out soon it may get infected.
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And it needs to be pointed out yet again...
PARENTS!
That poster wants control of YOUR children!
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Why indeed are you responding Sonny Boy, don't tell me it's because YOU "feed on conflict"?
Of course it's unlikely you've got the insight or sense of irony to recognize that. Or see how funny it is that you reflect on the reason for your post, justify it ("bored"), and so go ahead with your obsessive behavior anyway.
You little creep, you can't give anyone "common sense" advice, first you'd have to have "common sense". What are you anyway, an RA or something at some second rate school somewhere, crying your ass off about some boarding school your parents surely sent you to just to get your worthless self out of their sight.
Karen sue RB by all means, sue the board too, it's a public nuisance, look at the scum like psy that fester here. Psy like all losers fall into the trap of thinking something can't happen just because it hasn't happen yet. Of course you can sue the board: after all, the moderator is offering anonymity and then using the ability to identify IP addresses to out people. Not to mention refusing to remove posts that are reported as libelous. Another real slime bucket, that one.
And somebody trying to be clever a few posts back suggested that we should like at Cassandra's collection post of all her legal trouble.
Excellent idea, Karen! And you being an attorney it should be easy. Call up Q & Q as well as the many others with a bone to pick with fornits. Pool resources. Find out what plaintiff law firms are funneling money into this site to pimp for lawsuit leads. Find out the connections between said plaintiff law firms and certain posters (maybe named Steve, I thinking), info that's gonna make it really hard for such people to be credible witnesses at HLA or anywhere.
Collect info and start thinking "class action" and criminal versus civil.
hey RB, check out this poster's IP. 2 to 1 says it's Ottawa5 posting from minneapolis, mn. she's the most sanctimonious bitch out there, and a total phony, speaking of ST posts.
annie, do YOU want me to start showing YOUR true colors here? i'll do it. say the word, bitch.
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Yeah I thought it might be. She's worried our efforts might lead to actual regulation of the whole industry or God forbid...the truth about what goes on these places leaking out. Maybe we ought to take her into consideration, she has a dream of opening up her own child abusing camp one day. Who are we to take it from her?
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Its an obvious troll. A "guest" who is outraged by something they have nothing to do with, goading another poster they never met , "karen", into suing. If you feel so strongly then why dont you do that shit you talk about yourself. Look at this stupid troll.
"Karen should do this"
"Karen should do that"
"People should do this"
"People should do that"
Its a troll. Or a self righteous asshole who likes fucking with people who went through torture to satisfy their own inadequecies. Whoever it is they are too much of a chicken shit to do or say anything for themselves. They are just here to suck cocks and push buttons! :rofl:
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Struggling Turds is looking slow these days, wonder why that is?
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Why indeed are you responding Sonny Boy, don't tell me it's because YOU "feed on conflict"?
Of course it's unlikely you've got the insight or sense of irony to recognize that. Or see how funny it is that you reflect on the reason for your post, justify it ("bored"), and so go ahead with your obsessive behavior anyway.
You little creep, you can't give anyone "common sense" advice, first you'd have to have "common sense". What are you anyway, an RA or something at some second rate school somewhere, crying your ass off about some boarding school your parents surely sent you to just to get your worthless self out of their sight.
Karen sue RB by all means, sue the board too, it's a public nuisance, look at the scum like psy that fester here. Psy like all losers fall into the trap of thinking something can't happen just because it hasn't happen yet. Of course you can sue the board: after all, the moderator is offering anonymity and then using the ability to identify IP addresses to out people. Not to mention refusing to remove posts that are reported as libelous. Another real slime bucket, that one.
And somebody trying to be clever a few posts back suggested that we should like at Cassandra's collection post of all her legal trouble.
Excellent idea, Karen! And you being an attorney it should be easy. Call up Q & Q as well as the many others with a bone to pick with fornits. Pool resources. Find out what plaintiff law firms are funneling money into this site to pimp for lawsuit leads. Find out the connections between said plaintiff law firms and certain posters (maybe named Steve, I thinking), info that's gonna make it really hard for such people to be credible witnesses at HLA or anywhere.
Collect info and start thinking "class action" and criminal versus civil.
Unjustifiably threatening legal action can bring consequences on yourself you most likely never intended. As a lawyer you should know that. I would be VERY careful what you say at this point, you are on VERY thin ice.
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Of course you can sue the board: after all, the moderator is offering anonymity and then using the ability to identify IP addresses to out people.
Sorry to burst your bubble there champ, but this is not illegal in any way, shape or form.
Not to mention refusing to remove posts that are reported as libelous.
Swing and a miss there again, big slugger. Not illegal at all. Not to even mention the posts were not libelous in any way.
Take your fraudulous threats elsewhere.
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btw, psy your posts at ST only show you're a phony as well as stupid. Like you can post there, pretend you're just a nice guy with a cause then come here and be yourself (conflict junkie that is) and nobody will notice.
Stay here kid, it's clearly where you belong. You might even be high functioning in this company.
You mentally challenged jerkoff...If you don't play the "nice" game on ST, you get banned with a quickness. It's necessary to mollycoddle the oh-so-sensitive pinheads on ST. Not here, though...cum dumpster.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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*YAWN*...You gonna bite, little dog, or do you just bark? You really are a monotonous bastard. Karen would have to disprove any posts she finds defamatory. She came here knowing what it was all about, anyway. The prog-people must really be in a tailspin these days, look at them crawling out from under the rocks and yelping and threatening. What a bunch of mediocrities...
Well said, ZenAgent... :rofl:
I like to think of them as having been smoked out of their holes... :P :smokin:
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Why indeed are you responding Sonny Boy, don't tell me it's because YOU "feed on conflict"?
Of course it's unlikely you've got the insight or sense of irony to recognize that. Or see how funny it is that you reflect on the reason for your post, justify it ("bored"), and so go ahead with your obsessive behavior anyway.
You little creep, you can't give anyone "common sense" advice, first you'd have to have "common sense". What are you anyway, an RA or something at some second rate school somewhere, crying your ass off about some boarding school your parents surely sent you to just to get your worthless self out of their sight.
Karen sue RB by all means, sue the board too, it's a public nuisance, look at the scum like psy that fester here. Psy like all losers fall into the trap of thinking something can't happen just because it hasn't happen yet. Of course you can sue the board: after all, the moderator is offering anonymity and then using the ability to identify IP addresses to out people. Not to mention refusing to remove posts that are reported as libelous. Another real slime bucket, that one.
And somebody trying to be clever a few posts back suggested that we should like at Cassandra's collection post of all her legal trouble.
Excellent idea, Karen! And you being an attorney it should be easy. Call up Q & Q as well as the many others with a bone to pick with fornits. Pool resources. Find out what plaintiff law firms are funneling money into this site to pimp for lawsuit leads. Find out the connections between said plaintiff law firms and certain posters (maybe named Steve, I thinking), info that's gonna make it really hard for such people to be credible witnesses at HLA or anywhere.
Collect info and start thinking "class action" and criminal versus civil.
Wow. Someone needs an enema, if that stick doesn't come out soon it may get infected.
Goddamn, this shit is HILARIOUS!!! :rofl: :rofl:
PLEASE keep 'em coming.. laughter's the best medicine!!! ::bwahaha2::
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Why indeed are you responding Sonny Boy, don't tell me it's because YOU "feed on conflict"?
Of course it's unlikely you've got the insight or sense of irony to recognize that. Or see how funny it is that you reflect on the reason for your post, justify it ("bored"), and so go ahead with your obsessive behavior anyway.
You little creep, you can't give anyone "common sense" advice, first you'd have to have "common sense". What are you anyway, an RA or something at some second rate school somewhere, crying your ass off about some boarding school your parents surely sent you to just to get your worthless self out of their sight.
Karen sue RB by all means, sue the board too, it's a public nuisance, look at the scum like psy that fester here. Psy like all losers fall into the trap of thinking something can't happen just because it hasn't happen yet. Of course you can sue the board: after all, the moderator is offering anonymity and then using the ability to identify IP addresses to out people. Not to mention refusing to remove posts that are reported as libelous. Another real slime bucket, that one.
And somebody trying to be clever a few posts back suggested that we should like at Cassandra's collection post of all her legal trouble.
Excellent idea, Karen! And you being an attorney it should be easy. Call up Q & Q as well as the many others with a bone to pick with fornits. Pool resources. Find out what plaintiff law firms are funneling money into this site to pimp for lawsuit leads. Find out the connections between said plaintiff law firms and certain posters (maybe named Steve, I thinking), info that's gonna make it really hard for such people to be credible witnesses at HLA or anywhere.
Collect info and start thinking "class action" and criminal versus civil.
hey RB, check out this poster's IP. 2 to 1 says it's Ottawa5 posting from minneapolis, mn. she's the most sanctimonious bitch out there, and a total phony, speaking of ST posts.
annie, do YOU want me to start showing YOUR true colors here? i'll do it. say the word, bitch.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO!!!!!!! :rofl:
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I got the strangest fuckin letter in the mail today ....
Does this mean that I get to sue Karen as well? She has lied many times on here saying I was fired from HLA. Isn't that libel? Sure sounds like it!
No, no, I don't think it had anything to do with Karen. This was just strange. I stepped outside to walk the dog and found a Fed-Ex express envelope on my doorstep, only it didn't have the usual labels on it. It was addressed in crayon to Ginger Fornit, but there was no return address at all and nothing like a tracking number or anything. So I open it up and it's a full color glossy brochure for a camping retreat somewhere near Knoxville, TN. "Great!", I thought, "maybe there will be a music festival or maybe I'll take the kids hiking down that way next summer. But then I opened it up and looked inside, here's what I found:
"Adults and young adults.
"Relaxation, Adventure, Health Education and Clinical Services.
"Offers individualized and group adventure combined with learning effective tools for managing daily stressors and difficulties such as anxiety, depression, and anger.
"Individualized assessment and goal-planning session with a licensed psychologist to help you gain the most out of your stress management retreat. Participate in therapist-led relaxation exercises, coping skills classes, and group discussions."
:o
Creepier still? On the back of the brochure in the same crayon handwriting as the address label somebody had written "Don't forget that string bikini!" Now, I had just gone shopping with my girls to spend their Christmas gift cards and picked up a cute bikini. How would the sender know that? This is really starting to creep me out!
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Give it to the police and ask them to work it over for fingerprints. It's obviously made by someone insane so convincing them of harassment shouldn't be hard.
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I got the strangest fuckin letter in the mail today ....
Does this mean that I get to sue Karen as well? She has lied many times on here saying I was fired from HLA. Isn't that libel? Sure sounds like it!
No, no, I don't think it had anything to do with Karen. This was just strange. I stepped outside to walk the dog and found a Fed-Ex express envelope on my doorstep, only it didn't have the usual labels on it. It was addressed in crayon to Ginger Fornit, but there was no return address at all and nothing like a tracking number or anything. So I open it up and it's a full color glossy brochure for a camping retreat somewhere near Knoxville, TN. "Great!", I thought, "maybe there will be a music festival or maybe I'll take the kids hiking down that way next summer. But then I opened it up and looked inside, here's what I found:
"Adults and young adults.
"Relaxation, Adventure, Health Education and Clinical Services.
"Offers individualized and group adventure combined with learning effective tools for managing daily stressors and difficulties such as anxiety, depression, and anger.
"Individualized assessment and goal-planning session with a licensed psychologist to help you gain the most out of your stress management retreat. Participate in therapist-led relaxation exercises, coping skills classes, and group discussions."
:o
Creepier still? On the back of the brochure in the same crayon handwriting as the address label somebody had written "Don't forget that string bikini!" Now, I had just gone shopping with my girls to spend their Christmas gift cards and picked up a cute bikini. How would the sender know that? This is really starting to creep me out!
It wasn't from Peninsula Village, or linked to Covenant Health? When the shit got deep with lawyers for us, some asshole sat in the empty parking lot across from where I work, blatantly taking pictures of me...but that's all supposition, I'm certainly not accusing PV of being evil, bottom-feeding, abusive and criminal skull-fucks...never! But that Knoxville location gives me the creeps...and the counselor with the bondage fetish still posts on MySpace, although they made her disassociate her perversions from her job. She admits to being angry about the whole deal, and makes reference to "creepy people" trying to drag her through the dirt. Other details I can't post.
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Better yet, if you want to PM me the location, I'll go look at in person this weekend. Louisville or Maryville addresses are dead-giveaways to PV involvement I'll have to be a little more careful than the time I was at PV prowling...I think they have me on film pissing on the side of their staff meeting building...
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It wasn't from Peninsula Village, or linked to Covenant Health? When the shit got deep with lawyers for us, some asshole sat in the empty parking lot across from where I work, blatantly taking pictures of me...but that's all supposition, I'm certainly not accusing PV of being evil, bottom-feeding, abusive and criminal skull-fucks...never! But that Knoxville location gives me the creeps...and the counselor with the bondage fetish still posts on MySpace, although they made her disassociate her perversions from her job. She admits to being angry about the whole deal, and makes reference to "creepy people" trying to drag her through the dirt. Other details I can't post.
Link (myspace) please?
Sounds seamy; wish you divulge a little more, ph well...
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It wasn't from Peninsula Village, or linked to Covenant Health? When the shit got deep with lawyers for us, some asshole sat in the empty parking lot across from where I work, blatantly taking pictures of me...but that's all supposition, I'm certainly not accusing PV of being evil, bottom-feeding, abusive and criminal skull-fucks...never! But that Knoxville location gives me the creeps...and the counselor with the bondage fetish still posts on MySpace, although they made her disassociate her perversions from her job. She admits to being angry about the whole deal, and makes reference to "creepy people" trying to drag her through the dirt. Other details I can't post.
Link (myspace) please?
Sounds seamy; wish you divulge a little more, ph well...
Sure...here's a great advertisement for PV...you really want this person working with your kid...This is the first posting after PV "addressed" the issue, I was told. I've been through the argument of "counselors have a right to personal lives, too!" I agree, but don't connect your job to fetish photography or discuss what goes on at work...but thanks, it was very enlightening. The deleted posts are still up here under Peninsula Village: looking for bondage fetishists, or something. A word of caution to you, PV counselors: Now's not the time to be engaging in vindictive behavior. If you have a vendetta, bury it deep and be professional.
http://www.myspace.com/wendyloutattoo (http://www.myspace.com/wendyloutattoo)
I had to delete my other profiles...
Current mood: irate
Category: Blogging
...because of a work related issue (which I'll discuss later).
I'm adding back my best friends. There will only be a small amount of you; no ridiculousness...at least not for a while!!!
This is Baby Lou Tattoo, BTW...incase you didn't already pick up on who I am. I will add to my profile later. Right now I'm too steamed to do anything.
I need to go out.
http://www.myspace.com/UnderworldImages (http://www.myspace.com/UnderworldImages)
Bondage gear for all your restraining needs...by the way, counselor, this site still comes up when you search Peninsula Village on MySpace. If THAT DOCTOR finds out... A lot of PV counselors have MySpace pages up. Your "friends only" status on your MySpace pages doesn't mean anything to someone with the proper skillz.
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For Cassandra..
If you'd only just been shopping to get the bikini, would Fex ex have ben able to get that parcel to you before you got home, I mean did you literally come from shoping to home?
if it was a day earlier or suchlike I would report it, it sounds a bit creepy to me & if it is a program sending out shit to you like that you need to get it sorted, it's going too far no matter who sent it.
For everyone who's bashing Karen...
She came here and has admitted alot of things she's found hard to admit, try to understand that program parents honestly believe they are doing the right thing at the time, no mother wants to be seperated form her kid, you've al said yourself that kids, parents and staff are manipulated in the same way, as a parent she was sucked in along with the rest of you! I have said this about TSW, that he was as brainwashed as everyone else into believeing he was doing the right thing, the same goes for Karen, she is only human, you are showing double standards, 'oh TSW is so cool because he sees he was brainwashed and got out of it' why can't you let the same apply to Karen and The Who, they are people, people make mistakes, her son is okay, and she now won't advocate CB - be grateful that she has decided CB isn't a place to recommend, you guys did that, you achieved your goal and then run her off the board??
Personally i would have liked to see her continue posting, what she had to say about it all was very insightful, especially to the parent(s) who were/are on the verge of sending their kids away, i know, I was one of them, you've done your job and she has been honest about it all, basically between you all, you've pretty much saved two kids from the same fate, I hope I never see anyone else discouraged from posting here through the same idiotic treatment, encourage program parents here, talk with them and let them coe round to the same realisation Karen has rather than kick them about.
From a grateful mum, who I think, is coming out the other side (not breathing out yet) but a vast improvement is beginnig to show it's pretty little head. 8-)
I hope I don't regret saying that :lol:
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Personally i would have liked to see her continue posting, what she had to say about it all was very insightful, especially to the parent(s) who were/are on the verge of sending their kids away, i know, I was one of them, you've done your job and she has been honest about it all, basically between you all, you've pretty much saved two kids from the same fate, I hope I never see anyone else discouraged from posting here through the same idiotic treatment, encourage program parents here, talk with them and let them coe round to the same realisation Karen has rather than kick them about.
You're joking, right? I mean, there's supposed to be humour in this? I trust Karen like I trust a python with a hamster...it's gonna be an ugly mess.
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Zen I'm not asking anyone to trust anyone, especially as most posters here have no reason to trust
What i am saying is let's get the parents in here, let's discuss it, this mentality of running them off the board is really defeating the object, Karen was the one who bit the bullet - Kudos to her for doing so, she could have really opened the gateway, but who in their right mind after reading how she's been treated is going to subject themselves to the same?
Come on guys, you are on a mission, behave like soldiers and use tactics, diplomacy and strategy in what you're doing!! it's the only way to reach out, trust me as a parent who has been reached out to - really, wihtout ST and Fornits, my boys would be in a camp somwhere as we speak, take it form someone who was on the edge of making that decision.
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I came in here as a parent, no one ran me off. Some people posting on here have evil agendas and often they're exposed. Also, some people need a metaphorical boot up their asses to be enlightened.
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Yep I'm in 100% agreement, I also needed a boot up the arse - consider me enlightened, I'm glad i found Fornits and ST ... but more importantly I think my kids wll be even glader later on in life
I was nearly run off of here but decideed to stick it out, that makes me & said children glader, thanks all :tup:
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She came 'ere and 'as admitted a bit of fings she's found 'ard ter admit, try ter understand that program parents 'onestly believe they are doin' the bleedin' right fin' at the time, right, no muvver wants ter be seperated form 'er kid, yer've al said yorself that kids, parents and staff are manipulated in the same way, as a parent she were sucked in along wiv the bloody rest of yer! Struth! I 'ave said this about TSW, that 'e were as Michael Cainewashed as evry geezer else into believein' 'e were doin' the right fin', the same goes for Karen, she is only 'uman, yor showin' double standards, 'oh TSW is so cool because 'e spots 'e were Michael Cainewashed and got out of it' why can't yer let the bloody same apply ter Karen and The 'oo, right, they are blokes, blokes make mistakes, right, her son is okay, and she now won't advocate CB - be grateful that she 'as decided CB ain't a place ter recommend, yer lads did that, yer achieved yor goal and then run 'er off the board?? Personally i would 'ave liked ter see 'er continue postin', wot she 'ad ter say about it all were right insightful, especially ter the bloomin' parent(s) 'oo were/are on the verge of sendin' their kids oray, i know, I were one of them, yer've done yor Uncle Bob and she 'as been 'onest about it all, basically between you lot, yer've pretty much Chas'n'Daved two kids from the same fate, I 'ope I never spot any fairy else discouraged from postin' 'ere frough the same divvyic treatment, right, encourage program parents 'ere, right, talk wiv them and let them coe round ter the bloody same realisation Karen 'as ravver than kick them about.
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Cor, ta fer that. Wouldna figgered it out on my Jack Jones. What's the bother with takin' the piss outta some shite poofter, eh?
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Cor, ta fer that. Wouldna figgered it out on my Jack Jones. What's the bother with takin' the piss outta some shite poofter, eh?
wtf :o
Been awhile since I read this thread, I don't have time to prove or disprove a troll. I have no idea what Charly's intentions are but her point of view allowed me to see how the program-parent brain works.
You guys did give her alot of shit....
Was it deserved? I don't know...
Was all the "shit" negative? no....
Could you(we) have gone about it better? yeah.....
Is beating Charly the objective? not mine...
This lawsuit talk is stupid, but what do you think adults do when they feel insecure and bullied... They attack and act like children(i.e. threaten lawsuits)
My reaction to people who act like children(not just Charly, but some of us too) is to treat them with the same respect I would afford any human... child, adult, or otherwise..
It's essential to the cause of advocacy that we behave in a manner above and beyond what's expected of normal people. MLK, Gandhi, and Jesus are all great examples of advocates who stuck to their guns, yet remained civil.
I'm not suggesting that we all turn pansy, I'm just saying that truth and persistence always trumps clever retorts...
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Cor, ta fer that. Wouldna figgered it out on my Jack Jones. What's the bother with takin' the piss outta some shite poofter, eh?
wtf :o
Been awhile since I read this thread, I don't have time to prove or disprove a troll. I have no idea what Charly's intentions are but her point of view allowed me to see how the program-parent brain works.
You guys did give her alot of shit....
Was it deserved? I don't know...
Was all the "shit" negative? no....
Could you(we) have gone about it better? yeah.....
Is beating Charly the objective? not mine...
This lawsuit talk is stupid, but what do you think adults do when they feel insecure and bullied... They attack and act like children(i.e. threaten lawsuits)
My reaction to people who act like children(not just Charly, but some of us too) is to treat them with the same respect I would afford any human... child, adult, or otherwise..
It's essential to the cause of advocacy that we behave in a manner above and beyond what's expected of normal people. MLK, Gandhi, and Jesus are all great examples of advocates who stuck to their guns, yet remained civil.
I'm not suggesting that we all turn pansy, I'm just saying that truth and persistence always trumps clever retorts...
I fucking well agree! :rofl: ::argue:: :silly: ::bigmouth:: ::bwahaha:: ::bangin:: ::ftard:: ::soapbox:: ::troll:: ::kma:: ::fuckoff:: ::boycott:: ::spam:: ::both:: ::both:: :rofl: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha2::
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::mecry:: ::mecry:: ::mecry::
::kiss::
::deal::
::blushing::
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Kill all mimes.
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Kill all mimes.
Absolutely, couldn't agree more.
::unhappy::
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:rofl: This thread is fucking hilarious!
It's really funny to read it start to finish...
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Yep I'm in 100% agreement, I also needed a boot up the arse - consider me enlightened, I'm glad i found Fornits and ST ... but more importantly I think my kids wll be even glader later on in life
I was nearly run off of here but decideed to stick it out, that makes me & said children glader, thanks all :tup:
It's all great an good if a person can take it... but some can't. All in all, I know Karen would have been treated differently here if she didn't have the history she did.
It's easy to say "oh gee look... poor Karen" without considering her past actions contributing to the situation. Sure parents often get a somewhat harsh treatment here, but it's never anywhere near the same kind of thing Karen provokes.
@Handsonmom: Karen has a history here. If it wasn't her, i guarantee she wouldn't have gotten the same reaction. What did she (allegedly) do? A lot.
I aggree it is always ideal to remain civil. Unfortunately, there is no way to guarantee civil behavior on a public, unmoderated forum. (well at least without a lawyer handy). sorry. low blow. :rofl:
Look. She's talking to her kid now. That's the catalyst. She will discover the truth in time...
@Exhausted: I'm glad you decided to stick it out.
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This bum I see down by the highway every day on my way to work holds up a sign that says he's a disabled vet, and feeling bad for him I give him a dollar now and then. Last week I took the same route home, unlike I normally do and I saw watched him walk a block away and get in a chevy tahoe, a nicer car than I drive. I pulled up next to him and asked why he was begging for money with such a nice car, he told me, "it's Karen, this all goes back to Karen." I just drove away in shock.
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This bum I see down by the highway every day on my way to work holds up a sign that says he's a disabled vet, and feeling bad for him I give him a dollar now and then. Last week I took the same route home, unlike I normally do and I saw watched him walk a block away and get in a chevy tahoe, a nicer car than I drive. I pulled up next to him and asked why he was begging for money with such a nice car, he told me, "it's Karen, this all goes back to Karen." I just drove away in shock.
LIBEL!!! i'll sue you you bastard!!!! :rofl:
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Yep I'm in 100% agreement, I also needed a boot up the arse - consider me enlightened, I'm glad i found Fornits and ST ... but more importantly I think my kids wll be even glader later on in life
I was nearly run off of here but decideed to stick it out, that makes me & said children glader, thanks all :tup:
It's all great an good if a person can take it... but some can't. All in all, I know Karen would have been treated differently here if she didn't have the history she did.
It's easy to say "oh gee look... poor Karen" without considering her past actions contributing to the situation. Sure parents often get a somewhat harsh treatment here, but it's never anywhere near the same kind of thing Karen provokes.
@Handsonmom: Karen has a history here. If it wasn't her, i guarantee she wouldn't have gotten the same reaction. What did she (allegedly) do? A lot.
I aggree it is always ideal to remain civil. Unfortunately, there is no way to guarantee civil behavior on a public, unmoderated forum. (well at least without a lawyer handy). sorry. low blow. :rofl:
Look. She's talking to her kid now. That's the catalyst. She will discover the truth in time...
@Exhausted: I'm blad you decided to stick it out.
Psy! Where ya been? We haven't seen you on the group for a while. What's been going on with you? You seem bothered.
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This bum I see down by the highway every day on my way to work holds up a sign that says he's a disabled vet, and feeling bad for him I give him a dollar now and then. Last week I took the same route home, unlike I normally do and I saw watched him walk a block away and get in a chevy tahoe, a nicer car than I drive. I pulled up next to him and asked why he was begging for money with such a nice car, he told me, "it's Karen, this all goes back to Karen." I just drove away in shock.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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You darn forniscators need to stop Gang-Stalking me.
Who is driving by my house making horn noises in a 3-2-1 pattern?
What did I ever do to you?
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You darn forniscators need to stop Gang-Stalking me.
Who is driving by my house making horn noises in a 3-2-1 pattern?
What did I ever do to you?
How you doin' there, Charly. :lol:
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Psy! Where ya been? We haven't seen you on the group for a while. What's been going on with you? You seem bothered.
Nope. Just getting my sleep schedule back on normal (day awake, night sleep) time. Why? Long story.
I've been busy recently but not bothered. and tired.. and typing while tired... and... should probably hit submit before i fall asleep (were it not for the insomnia).
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Psy! Where ya been? We haven't seen you on the group for a while. What's been going on with you? You seem bothered.
Nope. Just getting my sleep schedule back on normal (day awake, night sleep) time. Why? Long story.
No problem; I withdraw the question.
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The evidence before the court is incontravertible.
Theres no need for the jury to retire.
In all my years of judging I have never heard before,
Of someone more deserving of the full penalty of the law.
The way you made them suffer,
Your exquisite wife and mother,
Fills me with the urge to deficate! -- no, judge, the jury!
Since, my friend, you have revealed your deepest fear,
I sentence you to be exposed before your peers.
Tear down the wall!
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Just a note to offer my apology and retraction of some things I said (passed on after hearing from someone else) in the past:
1. I have no personal information on Deborah's relationship with her son and anything I said about custody of her son has no basis. I also have no information indicating that Deborah used different logins on the forum.
2. Any impersonations of DJ, Julie or others were done in jest. I have no personal information about DJ's departure from HLA and I retract any remarks about him being fired and any jokes about improper relations with children.
3. Any insulting remarks towards Robert Bruce that may have crossed the line into untrue "facts" are retracted and I apologize.
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(http://http://imagescommerce.bcentral.com/merchantfiles/4732387/PF2MotherPink.jpg)
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That was me posting a pic of Karen. Problems logging in and posting. could someone get rid of the duplicate please? Thx.
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Just a note to offer my apology and retraction of some things I said (passed on after hearing from someone else) in the past:
1. I have no personal information on Deborah's relationship with her son and anything I said about custody of her son has no basis. I also have no information indicating that Deborah used different logins on the forum.
2. Any impersonations of DJ, Julie or others were done in jest. I have no personal information about DJ's departure from HLA and I retract any remarks about him being fired and any jokes about improper relations with children.
3. Any insulting remarks towards Robert Bruce that may have crossed the line into untrue "facts" are retracted and I apologize.
Thank you for your honesty with the group, Charly. Now have a seat on Front Row? and start busting your ass!
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Posted 2/14/2006 9:45 PM
E-Mail Newsletters
Cyberstalking law opens debate on what's annoying
By Richard Willing, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON ? It didn't get much publicity, but an anti-stalking bill passed by Congress recently makes it a federal crime to "annoy" someone over the Internet.
And that's really beginning to bug some people.
"It's a stupid law that has slipped in under the radar," says Clinton Fein, a San Francisco-based artist who runs annoy.com, a website that he says offers "unique and irreverent" commentary on politics and culture. "Who says what's officially annoying? Is that a business we really want our government to be in?"
The law makes it a crime to anonymously "annoy, abuse, threaten or harass" another person over the Internet.
Rep. Jim McDermott of Washington inserted the provision into legislation that reauthorized the federal Violence Against Women Act. It carries a prison sentence of up to two years and an unspecified fine for those convicted of violations. President Bush signed the bill into law Jan. 5.
McDermott said he was prompted to act by the case of Joelle Ligon, a Seattle woman who was sent menacing e-mails, falsely accused of résumé-padding in messages to co-workers and impersonated in sex-oriented Internet chat rooms from 1998 to 2003.
Some of the communications were traced to a former boyfriend in South Carolina. He was sentenced to five years of probation and 500 hours of community service after he was prosecuted under a federal telecommunications law that protects against harassment.
To eliminate questions over whether phone law applied to the Internet, McDermott pressed for the new legislation. The language "annoy, abuse, threaten or harass" was taken directly from the telephone law.
Mike DeCesare, a spokesman for McDermott, says the new law is not intended to curb free speech.
"This is about bad people doing bad things. ... It relates to somebody who does something to somebody else," he says. "It's not about posting something on a message board. It's got to be direct, one-to-one communication."
No one has been prosecuted under the new law, DeCesare says.
Critics aren't satisfied. Fein says it is unclear whether the law refers to annoying "conduct" or simply an e-mail whose message irritates its recipient.
"No one knows what this means," Fein says. "That in itself has a chilling effect."
Barry Steinhardt, a lawyer who specializes in privacy issues at the American Civil Liberties Union in New York City, says the new law's chief problem is the "subjective nature" of the word annoy. "Words like threaten, harass and abuse can be defined by what a reasonable person understands them to mean," he says. "Anyone who's ever had their spam filter stop something they wanted, or let something through that they didn't, knows that deciding what is annoying is something else again."
He says the ACLU is considering whether to ask a federal court to declare the new law unconstitutional because it's too vague.
A scholar who specializes in cyber law says the law could be difficult to overturn. Susan Brenner, a University of Dayton law professor and a consultant to the Secret Service on cyber laws, says courts likely would read "annoy" together with the words that follow it ? "abuse, threaten or harass" ? and conclude that the law refers to specific behavior.
In 2004, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit used that reasoning to uphold the conviction of Erik Bowker, an Ohio man who had stalked a Youngstown television reporter via telephone.
But in 1999, a federal appeals court in Washington, D.C., ruled that a man could not be prosecuted for "annoying" conduct because he had telephoned the U.S. attorney seven times to complain about a case that had been brought against him. The calls, the court found, were political speech protected by the First Amendment.
David Hudson, a lawyer with the First Amendment Center, a speech-rights advocacy group in Nashville, says the different ways that courts have interpreted the word "annoy" make the new anti-stalking law "ripe for a challenge."
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Someone should use that law to sue Karen and get her to stop harrassing the posters on fornits!
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:rofl: Yes they should, indeed. ::bwahaha::
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Here's the act Title 18 110A, 2261A (http://http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002261---A000-.html)(federal)... It's not bullshit unless some tries to us it to further their own bull. It's useful in cases involving real threats of harm transmitted over any facility of interstate commerce. The wording is important but subjective, how does the law define "reasonable fear"?. Either way like any law it can be exploited or used for good.
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Hey I found another federal law on forced labor, do any of you program vets feel that this applies to your program experience...
Title 18 77, 1589 (http://http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00001589----000-.html)
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Absolutely!
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Perspective: Create an e-annoyance, go to jail
Annoying someone via the Internet is now a federal crime. And that irritates CNET News.com's Declan McCullagh.
By Declan McCullagh
Published: January 9, 2006, 4:00 AM PST
See all Perspectives
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Annoying someone via the Internet is now a federal crime.
It's no joke. Last Thursday, President Bush signed into law a prohibition on posting annoying Web messages or sending annoying e-mail messages without disclosing your true identity.
In other words, it's OK to flame someone on a mailing list or in a blog as long as you do it under your real name. Thank Congress for small favors, I guess.
This ridiculous prohibition, which would likely imperil much of Usenet, is buried in the so-called Violence Against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act. Criminal penalties include stiff fines and two years in prison.
"The use of the word 'annoy' is particularly problematic," says Marv Johnson, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. "What's annoying to one person may not be annoying to someone else."
It's illegal to annoy
A new federal law states that when you annoy someone on the Internet, you must disclose your identity. Here's the relevant language.
"Whoever...utilizes any device or software that can be used to originate telecommunications or other types of communications that are transmitted, in whole or in part, by the Internet... without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass any person...who receives the communications...shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."
Buried deep in the new law is Sec. 113, an innocuously titled bit called "Preventing Cyberstalking." It rewrites existing telephone harassment law to prohibit anyone from using the Internet "without disclosing his identity and with intent to annoy."
To grease the rails for this idea, Sen. Arlen Specter, a Pennsylvania Republican, and the section's other sponsors slipped it into an unrelated, must-pass bill to fund the Department of Justice. The plan: to make it politically infeasible for politicians to oppose the measure.
The tactic worked. The bill cleared the House of Representatives by voice vote, and the Senate unanimously approved it Dec. 16.
There's an interesting side note. An earlier version that the House approved in September had radically different wording. It was reasonable by comparison, and criminalized only using an "interactive computer service" to cause someone "substantial emotional harm."
That kind of prohibition might make sense. But why should merely annoying someone be illegal?
There are perfectly legitimate reasons to set up a Web site or write something incendiary without telling everyone exactly who you are.
A law meant to annoy?
FAQ: The new 'annoy' law explained
A practical guide to the new federal law that aims to outlaw certain types of annoying Web sites and e-mail.Think about it: A woman fired by a manager who demanded sexual favors wants to blog about it without divulging her full name. An aspiring pundit hopes to set up the next Suck.com. A frustrated citizen wants to send e-mail describing corruption in local government without worrying about reprisals.
In each of those three cases, someone's probably going to be annoyed. That's enough to make the action a crime. (The Justice Department won't file charges in every case, of course, but trusting prosecutorial discretion is hardly reassuring.)
Clinton Fein, a San Francisco resident who runs the Annoy.com site, says a feature permitting visitors to send obnoxious and profane postcards through e-mail could be imperiled.
"Who decides what's annoying? That's the ultimate question," Fein said. He added: "If you send an annoying message via the United States Post Office, do you have to reveal your identity?"
Fein once sued to overturn part of the Communications Decency Act that outlawed transmitting indecent material "with intent to annoy." But the courts ruled the law applied only to obscene material, so Annoy.com didn't have to worry.
"I'm certainly not going to close the site down," Fein said on Friday. "I would fight it on First Amendment grounds."
He's right. Our esteemed politicians can't seem to grasp this simple point, but the First Amendment protects our right to write something that annoys someone else.
It even shields our right to do it anonymously. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas defended this principle magnificently in a 1995 case involving an Ohio woman who was punished for distributing anonymous political pamphlets.
If President Bush truly believed in the principle of limited government (it is in his official bio), he'd realize that the law he signed cannot be squared with the Constitution he swore to uphold.
And then he'd repeat what President Clinton did a decade ago when he felt compelled to sign a massive telecommunications law. Clinton realized that the section of the law punishing abortion-related material on the Internet was unconstitutional, and he directed the Justice Department not to enforce it.
Bush has the chance to show his respect for what he calls Americans' personal freedoms. Now we'll see if the president rises to the occasion.
Biography
Declan McCullagh is CNET News.com's chief political correspondent. He spent more than a decade in Washington, D.C., chronicling the busy intersection between technology and politics. Previously, he was the Washington bureau chief for Wired News, and a reporter for Time.com, Time magazine and HotWired. McCullagh has taught journalism at American University and been an adjunct professor at Case Western University.
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There are perfectly legitimate reasons to set up a Web site or write something incendiary without telling everyone exactly who you are.
:tup:
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Poop prank defended as free speech
SINCE REP. MARILYN MUSGRAVE GOT A FECES-LADEN PACKAGE, IT'S UNLEASHED A BIG STINK IN THE COURT
By Monte Whaley
Denver Post Staff Writer
Article Last Updated: 01/18/2007 08:32:17 AM MST
Greeley
What Weld County prosecutors see as the misuse of a rancid pile of dog feces, Kathleen Ensz's defense attorneys see as an expression of the First Amendment.
Ensz is accused of going into her backyard in May, obtaining a piece of excrement, placing it in an unwanted political mailer and slipping in under the door of U.S. Rep. Marilyn Musgrave's office.
Ensz's attorneys argue that her conduct was a form of political protest that deserves protection and is as sacrosanct as Thomas Jefferson's railing against the king of England.
They also cited Mr. Hankey, a television character on the adult cartoon show "South Park," as evidence of how commonplace feces is for expressing disdain.
Mr. Hankey is a talking piece of human waste that shows up every Christmas Eve to deliver presents to good boys and girls whose diet has been high in fiber.
"What she did was probably crude and boorish," said Patricia Bangert, one of Ensz's attorneys. "But when Thomas Jefferson said there should be no kings and queens and we should be a free nation, that was considered obnoxious and horrible at the time."
Bangert also cites Mr. Hankey as part of her argument that feces is often used as an angry expression shielded by the Constitution.
"Etiquette and propriety aside, it is commonplace in today's society to equate a distasteful or disliked person, situation or thing to feces," Bangert said.
Ensz, a Democrat, was angered by repeatedly receiving mailings from Musgrave, a Republican whom she does not like. She decided to vent her frustration by packaging and presenting the feces, according to court filings.
Prosecutors have charged Ensz - a 63-year-old retired French professor at the University of Northern Colorado - with misdemeanor "use of a noxious substance."
Ensz's attorneys say they will probably call both Weld County District Attorney Ken Buck and Musgrave to the witness stand for an April 18 pretrial hearing.
They claim Buck, also a Republican, pursued criminal charges against Ensz, with the backing of Musgrave, because Ensz strongly supported Democrats in last fall's election.
Ensz displayed signs at her house for both Angie Paccione - Musgrave's Democratic opponent - and Democratic gubernatorial candidate Bill Ritter. Police contacted a staff member in Musgrave's office and asked if Ensz should be prosecuted, according to court papers.
Musgrave and Buck talked, and charges were filed against Ensz, said Bangert.
Later, Musgrave sent out news releases claiming Paccione was linked to the incident.
"It all begins to look like a conspiracy because immediately after she is charged, Marilyn Musgrave immediately goes to the press," Bangert said.
Buck couldn't be reached for comment Wednesday.
Musgrave spokesman Aaron Johnson said: "Right now, this issue is between Ms. Ensz and law enforcement officials."
Ensz also couldn't be reached for comment.
A trial date for Ensz has been set for May 15.
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5034519?source=rss (http://www.denverpost.com/ci_5034519?source=rss)
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Karen. Shame on you if you try and use that unconstitutional drivel to get your way. Whoever wrote that bill should be hung in my opinion. Undermining the constitution is a traitorous crime. You and I both know that the Supreme Court would rule that legislation unconstitutional.
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She came 'ere and 'as admitted a bit of fings she's found 'ard ter admit, try ter understand that program parents 'onestly believe they are doin' the bleedin' right fin' at the time, right, no muvver wants ter be seperated form 'er kid, yer've al said yorself that kids, parents and staff are manipulated in the same way, as a parent she were sucked in along wiv the bloody rest of yer! Struth! I 'ave said this about TSW, that 'e were as Michael Cainewashed as evry geezer else into believein' 'e were doin' the right fin', the same goes for Karen, she is only 'uman, yor showin' double standards, 'oh TSW is so cool because 'e spots 'e were Michael Cainewashed and got out of it' why can't yer let the bloody same apply ter Karen and The 'oo, right, they are blokes, blokes make mistakes, right, her son is okay, and she now won't advocate CB - be grateful that she 'as decided CB ain't a place ter recommend, yer lads did that, yer achieved yor goal and then run 'er off the board?? Personally i would 'ave liked ter see 'er continue postin', wot she 'ad ter say about it all were right insightful, especially ter the bloomin' parent(s) 'oo were/are on the verge of sendin' their kids oray, i know, I were one of them, yer've done yor Uncle Bob and she 'as been 'onest about it all, basically between you lot, yer've pretty much Chas'n'Daved two kids from the same fate, I 'ope I never spot any fairy else discouraged from postin' 'ere frough the same divvyic treatment, right, encourage program parents 'ere, right, talk wiv them and let them coe round ter the bloody same realisation Karen 'as ravver than kick them about.
I'm not a Cockney, I was born and raised in Sussex, I speak nicely, get it right
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Whatever...like I care. :roll:
Anyway, that was 3 days ago.
Next...
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(http://http://www.superkids.com/aweb/pages/reviews/girls/3/clueless/skirt.gif)
What-eva!
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Whatever...like I care. :roll:
Anyway, that was 3 days ago.
Next...
If you don't care, why write it stupid
Sorry it took 3 days to reply, I don't spend all day every day on the net, on account of having a life
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Look you argumentative Brit-cunt, let's settle this right now, shall we? :rofl: My dialect program only has one built-in British mode, and that's Cockney! So you better get used to it. ::bwahaha::
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A true Cockney would have more respect for a woman than to call her a cunt
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He'd call her a bint instead.
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A true Cockney would have more respect for a woman than to call her a cunt
:rofl:
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What's a Cockney?
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What's a Cockney?
What about a knee-cock?
How about a knock-kneed Cockney?
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Typical features of Cockney speech include:
* Dropped H, as in not 'alf pronounced [a?f], ("not half")
* Diphthong shift of [i?] to [?i] (for example beet [b?i?]), [e?] to [a?] (for example bait [ba??]), [a?] to [??] (for example bite [b???]), and [??] to [o?] (for example, boy [bo?].
* In the /??/ diphthong (as in 'coat'), not only does the nucleus lower, but the offglide tenses as well. Hence /b??t/ for 'boat.'
* The /u:/ (in 'tune') phoneme is centralised, for instance, /b??t/ for 'boot.'
* /æ/ in 'bad' is lengthened somewhat. This feature, in addition to the Monophthongisation of the /au/ phoneme, means that in some dialects the words 'math' and 'mouth' rhyme.
* Merger of /?/-zd- with /f/, and [ð]-d- with /v/, hence [mæfs] for ?maths?, [b?v?] for 'bother'.
* Monophthongisation of /a?/ to [æ?], hence [dæ?n] for ?down?
* Use of a glottal stop for intervocalic 't', as in bottle or butter (but not when it precedes the stress, as in deter); it can also occur between other sonorants, as in mental or in Feltham (the h of which is silent even in RP)
* Considerable glide of the /?:/ phoneme in 'cord' and 'thought.' In words with 'open' syllables like 'floor' and 'bore,' this vowel is pronounced with an upglide, similar to New York English. Hence /k?:?/ for 'core.' In words with 'closed' syllables, such as 'cord' and 'caught,' the vowel glides to /?/, hence /b?:?n/ for 'born.'
* Sometimes, use of a labiodental approximant [?] for /r/, in contrast to an alveolar approximant [?] in RP. To speakers who are not used to [?], this can sound like a /w/.
* Vocalisation of dark l, hence m?ow?? for ?Millwall?.
* Intrusive 'R' after a vowel, hence 'America-r-is' for 'America is'
* Use of me instead of my
* Use of ain't instead of isn't, am not, are not, has not, and have not
* Use of "In'it" to question a positive when making a statement, for example, "Good day today in'it?"
Example: Faw'y fahsan' frushes flew ova fawn'n 'eaf for Forty thousand thrushes flew over Thornton Heath
In other instances single words might be changed drastically like the name 'Heather' usually /?h?.ð?(?)/ Cockney /??.v?/.
The lengthening of the vowel sound in (for example) grass (from [græs] to [gra?s]) was a Cockney innovation which spread and by 1900 was used by many southern English accents. Most of the features mentioned above have in recent years partly spread into more general south-eastern speech, giving the accent called Estuary English); an Estuary speaker will use some but not all of the Cockney sounds. The characteristics of Cockney as opposed to Estuary are the dropping of H and grammatical features like the use of ain't.
A television advertisement for Heineken beer in the 1980s showed a Sloane woman receiving elocution lessons in Cockney, parodying My Fair Lady. In the advert, she was being taught to say "The wa'er in Majorca don' taste like wot it ough' a", but could only manage a posh rendition of "The water in Mallorca doesn't taste quite how it should" (until, of course, she drank the beer).
Today, the traditional form of Cockney English is declining in usage within London, displaced by a Jamaican Creole-influenced variety gaining popularity amongst young Londoners, particulary, though far from exclusively, those of Afro-Caribbean descent. Nevertheless, some terms such as 'rabbit' (rabbit and pork = talk) are still in common usage.
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1387949808 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-35608651387949808)
Karen, why do you laugh at your kid like that when he is screaming for help?
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What's a Cockney?
A true Cockney was born under the Bo Bells, which is an area in London
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Do the kids drink the tap water?
Local Water System Report
Carlbrook School
Halifax, VA
Serves: 90 people
An Environmental Working Group analysis of tap water tests from 2002 through 2003 shows that customers of Carlbrook School drank water containing up to 11 pollutants. Carlbrook School is one of 65,000 water suppliers across the country wrestling with treating water polluted by sprawl, sewage, factory farms, and industry.
Pollution Summary
11 Total Contaminants Detected (2002 - 2003)
Chloroform, Bromodichloromethane, Dibromochloromethane, Total trihalomethanes (TTHMs), Xylenes (total), Ethylbenzene, Alpha particle activity (excl radon and uranium), Alpha particle activity (incl. radon & uranium), Radium-226, Radium-228, Gross beta particle activity (pCi/L)
1 Agricultural Pollutants (pesticides, fertilizer, factory farms)
Ethylbenzene
1 Sprawl and Urban Pollutants (road runoff, lawn pesticides, human waste)
Xylenes (total)
7 Industrial Pollutants
Xylenes (total), Ethylbenzene, Alpha particle activity (excl radon and uranium), Alpha particle activity (incl. radon & uranium), Radium-226, Radium-228, Gross beta particle activity (pCi/L)
4 Water Treatment and Distribution Byproducts (pipes and fixtures, treatment chemicals and byproducts)
Chloroform, Bromodichloromethane, Dibromochloromethane, Total trihalomethanes (TTHMs)
5 Naturally Occurring (naturally present but increased for lands denuded by sprawl, agriculture, or industrial development)
Alpha particle activity (excl radon and uranium), Alpha particle activity (incl. radon & uranium), Radium-226, Radium-228, Gross beta particle activity (pCi/L)
Contaminants found in your tap water (2002 - 2003): 11
Health effects or target organs of contaminants found: Cardiovascular or Blood Toxicity, Cancer, Developmental Toxicity, Endocrine Toxicity, Immunotoxicity, Kidney Toxicity, Gastrointestinal or Liver Toxicity, Neurotoxicity, Reproductive Toxicity, Respiratory Toxicity, and Skin Sensitivity.
View Details
Contaminants found above health based limits: 2*
Contaminants listed may not have exceeded legal limits, which are set to balance cost and benefits and are often higher than health-based limits - see note below.
Contaminant/ Name/ Average Result/ Maximum Result/ Health Limit Exceeded/ Has Legal Limit/ Legal Limit Exceeded
Bromodichloromethane 3 ppb 6.4 ppb Yes Yes No
Disinfection by-product
Dibromochloromethane 1.23 ppb 2.2 ppb Yes Yes No
Disinfection by-product
Total trihalomethanes (TTHMs) 7.63 ppb 16.8 ppb Yes Yes No
Measure of four disinfection by-products
* This table contains one or more listings for a chemical group which comprises individual chemicals that are also listed in the table. The chemical group is not counted separately in numbers presented for total chemicals detected.
NOTE: Health based limits included in this analysis include enforceable drinking water limits (called Maximum Contaminant Limits, or MCLs) as well as governmental, non-enforceable health guidelines, such as Maximum Contaminant Limit Goals (MCLGs), lifetime health advisory levels, one-day and ten-day advisory levels to protect children from non-cancer health endpoints, and other government-established health guidelines for tap water contaminants.
Violation Summary
Total Violations: 1
Health Violations: 1
View Full Violation Summary
http://www.ewg.org/tapwater/yourwater/s ... =VA5083270 (http://www.ewg.org/tapwater/yourwater/system.php?pwsid=VA5083270)
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Is that water tester manipulating again? Sounds perfectly healthy to me! :roll:
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They mixed it with vodka to kill the bacteria.
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They mixed it with vodka to kill the bacteria.
Now that's my kind of TBS! :wink:
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Toasting you with my Carlbrook water bottle!
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So... I read a lot of the thread here, but couldn't keep going - so much anger. And maybe it's justified. My son went to Carlbrook, completed the program. Looking back, yes, I put on blinders, didn't look carefully at what was actually going on there. At the time I sent him, it looked to me like my son was headed for jail or death - was dealing, was involved with gangs, lying, cheating, stealing... he was determined to do what he was doing; I was determined not to let him die. Did I over-react? Would he have been just fine if I had let him stay at home, continue partying, dealing, doing what he wanted? I don't know, maybe. Maybe all that Carlbrook did was keep him out of trouble for 15 months.
My take on the Carlbrook staff: Tim seems harmless to me, and genuine. Glen Bender is a cipher - he seems like a background figure, looking good with his PhD. Grant Price is scary. I certainly got that he was a kid who himself needed to be sent away. A master manipulator. He's a Cascade grad who wanted to make a better program. A year or so ago there was a "rebellion" at Carlbrook and since then they have gotten much more strict. Grant has become the "heavy."
I know more now than I knew then. If I realized (or let myself realize) that it was essentially recycled EST, I probably would have pulled my kid out. Or maybe not. I was scared as shit about what would happen to him out in the world.
I've asked my son if he thinks going to Carlbrook was a good thing or a bad thing. I've gotten different answers different times. He graduated two years ago. He's beginning to question the ethics of the "groups" and "workshops" and so am I. When all is said and done, he says it was good. But I still don't know.
You guys, DJ, etc, please realize: we parents did not "send our kids away" because we didn't love them, wanted to dump them on someone else, wanted them abused, etc. We were scared they were going to die. Kid do. Die, that is. Kids who are dealing, stealing, getting arrested, snorting coke, etc, etc. Some of those kids die. I didn't want my kid to be one of them. I love him like crazy. I always have and always will.
My son and I have a good relationship today. Maybe one day he'll come to his senses and hate me for sending him to Carlbrook. I hope not. But, if it is, so be it. I did the best I could. I made the best decision I could.
He's doing great. Maybe he's posting on this site, who knows.
I wish all of you the best. The world is a scary place and we all do the best we can.
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If that's what makes you feel good to think, then I guess that's what you'll think.
Sending your kid to a duckfarm couldn't possibly help him. Maybe remove him from a bad environment for a while, but, hey, "wherever you go, there you are."
Carlbrook is a dangerous place for developing minds. It should be strictly avoided, especially since now they've gotten "heavy." This is scary news and reinforced the need to STAY AWAY FROM CARLBROOK!
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My son and I have a good relationship today. Maybe one day he'll come to his senses and hate me for sending him to Carlbrook. I hope not. But, if it is, so be it. I did the best I could. I made the best decision I could.
He's doing great. Maybe he's posting on this site, who knows.
I wish all of you the best. The world is a scary place and we all do the best we can.
I would hope that he does not ever come to hate you.That would be awful for both of you. perhaps the fact that you are now aware that Carlbrook is not all beer and skittles helps because your son is aware that you can keep an open mind so that if it was a negative experience for him he wont be shut out for mentioning this.
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If that's what makes you feel good to think, then I guess that's what you'll think.
Sending your kid to a duckfarm couldn't possibly help him. Maybe remove him from a bad environment for a while, but, hey, "wherever you go, there you are."
Carlbrook is a dangerous place for developing minds. It should be strictly avoided, especially since now they've gotten "heavy." This is scary news and reinforced the need to STAY AWAY FROM CARLBROOK!
She/He knows that now, don't be so harsh, parent's send their kids away because they really believe they are doing what is best or that it's the ony option, we all know how manipulated parents are when it comes to saving their kids' life by these programs.......at least this person is able to see things in the perspective they need to be put in, that is rare in a program parent who usually defend their actions to the hilt, give her/him some slack - jees
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Fuck what the parents has to say. Tell us more about this rebellion.
I'm all about rebellion in program.. More the merrier!
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Well anon-parent I appreciate the honesty, I'm always on the fence when it comes to program-parents. On one hand I want to despise them on the other hand I feel sorry for them.
But, yeah I really don't have anything intelligent to say at the moment, what's up with this rebellion?
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Pretty much how I feel Hanzomom. I've defended them in the past so they will at least speak their piece. More often than not they turn into raving nutters.
I third my own motion with another cry for more details about this here rebellion.
I think I might put a chapter on effective rebellion strategies in my Escaper and suriviors guide.
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Fuck what the parents has to say. Tell us more about this rebellion.
I'm all about rebellion in program.. More the merrier!
TSW go back to your Maoist forum and delete some more posts you don?t like and quit trying to sidetrack another thread?. You cant delete them here.
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Inquirmind 1 wrote:
?..Maybe all that Carlbrook did was keep him out of trouble for 15 months?.
I think whether it was the work he did at the school, the school itself or just that he was in a safe environment (or a combination of the 3) you made the right choice at the time and the proof is that he seems to be doing well and is back on track.
?.. My son and I have a good relationship today. Maybe one day he'll come to his senses and hate me for sending him to Carlbrook. I hope not. But, if it is, so be it. I did the best I could. I made the best decision I could.
It seems you have an open mind and love your son so your relationship will continue to grow?.I wouldn?t fear otherwise as long as the two of you can talk about the past together and understand what occurred and why they occurred.
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Definitely all the more reason to Add a Rebellion section to the survival guide.
Point 1: How to incapacitate your counselors.
A) Wait until they are asleep.
B) Acting alone approach them quietly and then duct tape them to their bed.
C) Should they wake up get your buddies in on the act and have them doggy pile the counselor until he is properly secured.
Next:
Points to consider when rebelling:
Always attack. Don't ever sit back in a defensive stance. Your captors want you to hole up in your dorm/Cabin/Wigwam. Get your fellow rebels and move to directly attack the program's offices.
Trash the records room. Go after the computers.. Mainly get to a phone and start calling your parents, newspapers, and anyone who will listen.
Also go after the food in the dining hall. Once you've secured a source off food and water you can hold out longer.
I wouldn't resort to taking hostages. This is a really bad idea, and will more than likely get you a longer jail term than you already have coming. However, it is possible that a good lawyer can get you off if you have adequete proof that the place is an abusive shit pit.
I'll add more later.. Definitely this needs expanding.
Again.. More on the rebellion.
To bad the son never had a real chance to thrive at home with the benifit of community services. Hopefully he won't spend the rest of his life faking it and unlearn his programming enough to find the real person he was told not to be.
To the mom:
Be part of your son's postprogram recovery. Programs are traumatic experiences and you can only hope that he begins to seperate the program crap that has been branded into his psyce from reality. If he gets angry at you don't attempt to argue with him as it will only inflame the situation. Just let the anger run its course. Be accepting to the idea that your son's anger might be justified after having been stripped of his civil liberties and held against his will for 15 months without the benifits of a trial.
I don't think he will hate you ever, but at some point he might express anger about your decision.
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The first step to any good program rebellion is taking down and securing the STUDENTS who have been promoted to be part of the program, or staffs assistants or whatever the program is called. These are the spies that feed information to the program, without them the staff wouldn't know anything that is going on. They are the true betrayers. They usually get the nerds or the kids sent for no reason other than their parents are dicks, the frightened ones, too weird to make friends with the kids in the program so they befriend staff, and the staff take advantage of this. These relationships should be sabotaged and destroyed before any rebellion will happen. These students will take an active role in stopping any rebellion, in most programs there are always losers who side with the program.
The second enemy is program parents. Program staff are like hired hit man, you can stop them but there is another hundred fuck head idiots waiting in line behind them to 'make a difference in some kids life' or whatever hogwash they believe. The true enemy is not these retarded group of employees, but the people paying them to do the dirty work. Document abuse in detail and keep it to yourself. When you get home, write a website about how your parents abused you by paying others to do it. Humiliate them in front of all their friends and colleagues like they paid to have you humiliated.
Do not kill yourself as revenge to hurt your parents as some poor kids end up doing, this is a waste of your life. If you get to this point, dedicate your life to something worthwhile and give your life to a cause worth fighting for, that normal people are otherwise afraid to do out of a fear of losing economic and social status, or even their live.
A rebellion at a program, unless its widespread, can back fire. Many kids have tried to start riots and end up staring at a bunch of kids who don't do shit and just watch them get dragged up to isolation. There is a catch 22 to planning it, as you might be discovered.
Better plan is to get a buddy and run. Steal a staff's car if you can, and drive and don't stop for as long as you can and then steal another car and dump that one in a river or something. Stealing a car when you are underage will only get you in so much trouble. If you hit someone over the head to get that car you get in a lot more trouble. Violence is not needed to escape and bring down a program if you use your head.
The question is, do you want to let our your anger and have a rebellion, or regain your freedom while secretly slipping out the back? Apples and oranges, it's all good..
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The first step to any good program rebellion is taking down and securing the STUDENTS who have been promoted to be part of the program, or staffs assistants or whatever the program is called. These are the spies that feed information to the program, without them the staff wouldn't know anything that is going on. They are the true betrayers. They usually get the nerds or the kids sent for no reason other than their parents are dicks, the frightened ones,
Usually?!?!? Pfft... I resent that. I was one of those (nerdy kids with no reason for being there) and I started a protest... I hated staff.
too weird to make friends with the kids in the program so they befriend staff, and the staff take advantage of this. These relationships should be sabotaged and destroyed before any rebellion will happen. These students will take an active role in stopping any rebellion, in most programs there are always losers who side with the program.
The second enemy is program parents. Program staff are like hired hit man, you can stop them but there is another hundred fuck head idiots waiting in line behind them to 'make a difference in some kids life' or whatever hogwash they believe. The true enemy is not these retarded group of employees, but the people paying them to do the dirty work. Document abuse in detail and keep it to yourself. When you get home, write a website about how your parents abused you by paying others to do it. Humiliate them in front of all their friends and colleagues like they paid to have you humiliated.
Do not kill yourself as revenge to hurt your parents as some poor kids end up doing, this is a waste of your life. If you get to this point, dedicate your life to something worthwhile and give your life to a cause worth fighting for, that normal people are otherwise afraid to do out of a fear of losing economic and social status, or even their live.
A rebellion at a program, unless its widespread, can back fire. Many kids have tried to start riots and end up staring at a bunch of kids who don't do shit and just watch them get dragged up to isolation. There is a catch 22 to planning it, as you might be discovered.
but when it works.. the program falls.
Better plan is to get a buddy and run. Steal a staff's car if you can, and drive and don't stop for as long as you can and then steal another car and dump that one in a river or something. Stealing a car when you are underage will only get you in so much trouble. If you hit someone over the head to get that car you get in a lot more trouble. Violence is not needed to escape and bring down a program if you use your head.
The question is, do you want to let our your anger and have a rebellion, or regain your freedom while secretly slipping out the back? Apples and oranges, it's all good..
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i have only read some of the postings here but i would just like to say as a former Calrbook student that it was the worst place i have ever been. I was part of the "rebellion" that happend their about a year ago and was sent to a government run juvinile detention facility where the kids really knew how to fight the staff...clubs shanks ect... i just want to say to all my friends i saw hurt at Carlbrook that i couldn't do more to help them.
o yea my parents went to jail in part for sending me to carlbrook, they used carlbrook as a tool to keep me from reporting years of abuse so fuck carlbrook and the parents who say that all parents are just trying to do the right thing. And fuck grant Price he was my bitch and i told him so when i was there.
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i have only read some of the postings here but i would just like to say as a former Calrbook student that it was the worst place i have ever been. I was part of the "rebellion" that happend their about a year ago and was sent to a government run juvinile detention facility where the kids really knew how to fight the staff...clubs shanks ect... i just want to say to all my friends i saw hurt at Carlbrook that i couldn't do more to help them.
o yea my parents went to jail in part for sending me to carlbrook, they used carlbrook as a tool to keep me from reporting years of abuse so fuck carlbrook and the parents who say that all parents are just trying to do the right thing. And fuck grant Price he was my bitch and i told him so when i was there.
Hmm never thought about putting a section in my guide for creating weapons for self defense purposes.
Could you go into specifics as to why Carlbrook sucks?
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To the parents who are looking at emotional growth programs on this board for their child:
Don't believe anything you read. The only way to confirm your suspicions (or otherwise) is to go to the school and visit. Even then, keep inquiring the staff for more information. There are good programs out there, but you must search and choose wisely. Also, consult professional help. The professionals among the professionals one might say. Unfortunately, there are many doctors out there who simply do not know what their doing. It IS important to trust your gut feelings at times, but also be aware of a personal bias you may have concerning sensitive issues. Third party feedback from an outside source is always a good idea. These programs and the process of sending your kids away IS A LASTING IMPRESSION and will likely stay with them in one influence or another for the rest of their life. This is not a light decision, and parents I cannot emphasize this point enough. I understand that some parents have reached "the end" and are extremely concerned for their children and have no other avenue to pursue. I sympathize with those out there, and once again, recommend professional help. These forums should be used only as a resource, and as such, must be read with criticism and skepticism.
I would advise against listening to one side of the graduates (or pre-maturely expelled students) at these programs. They are likely to be biased, and must be understood accordingly. Read carefully, but do not base your decision on what they have to say. It is good and well to be concerned about potential abuse and illegal actions your children face there, but also understand that these programs are designed to be fairly last resort options. Medical treatment allows for certain things, and these ARE (or at least supposed to be) trained professionals. Once again, it is wise to learn as much as you can about these programs you will prospectively be sending your children to. The treatment WILL likely be intense, and with a high level of emotional development. Once again, there is probably a high level of risk for a variety of things to happen. Human beings are each wired differently and by sending your children there, you should not be looking for a "fix" for anything. Therapy is designed to do exactly that, promote healthier behavior, but not guarantee anything. In addition, depending on the program, they may also demand a high level of participation from the PARENT as well. Parents, these programs are as much of a commitment on your part as well as your child.
Lastly, to address the flamers, rebellion promoters, and unsatisfied ex-students of these programs. Please address the topic in a respectable manner. You are posting to offer your opinion and concern. The people who read these forums are potentially people in troubled times and are seeking advice. You do not assist in their pursuit by offering inaccurate or severely biased opinions. Let us please be aware of our actions.
Now, I will offer my own personal opinions on this school in particular.
Carlbrook is probably one of the better schools out there. The website will present the program as a college preparatory school. Academics at this school are not lacking and are comparable to other well run schools out there. In addition, they have an excellent college advising program there, and will assist in helping your children not only gain acceptance into college, but potentially some of the best universities out there.
This is an EMOTIONAL GROWTH boarding school with a high degree of therapy. Students have "group therapy" 3 times a week.
Carlbrook requires that your child attends a wilderness assessment program prior to his/her arrival. This may take three weeks or longer (most likely longer).
I recommend you visit, and speak with the staff. The students there are well treated and treated fairly. There are minor inconsistencies at best, and overall most parents find the experience to be a positive one.
The length of stay at Carlbrook is anywhere in between 14-19 months on average. This is a STANDARD stay, and does not include possible extensions.
More information can be obtained that website and contacting people there.
I believe the website is http://http://www.carlbrook.org/[/url]
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Wilderness is not brat camp.
To my knowledge, Bratcamp is a media driven tv show that is filmed at SEVERAL LOCATIONS. Several of these "locations" are actually legitimate wilderness programs (although you question their legitimacy...). I believe one of these wilderness programs is SAGEWALK. Probably not a good idea to send your kids there guys :).
Also, directed to NIHIL. It is great that you're trying to help people out, but you also seem to be extremely biased. I recommend doing some professional research before you continue "helping" these people. Also, you talk about these "seminars" or "workshops" as if their cult activities. Perhaps you should inquire directly into their nature, and if unable to, think about ALL sides of why you can't get your hands on this information. Don't just automatically jump to your own conclusions.
And about that female Carlbrook graduate you tried to AIM. I would suspect that these workshops do fall under the protection of confidentiality. If you are a medical professional, you are probably able to inquire into more detail of such, but I suspect you are not. Trying to get information out of a graduate in such a way seems shady at best. How did you get her contact information? And as you said before, they're probably very confused and if they are brainwashed, probably biased. Obviously, this can be true for a variety of things, not just limited to these programs. Also, once again, this too can be considered a bias, and I would like to point out that you seem to contradict your requests of people keeping an open mind about these programs.
I wonder, can you actually go through these programs. Therapy is tricky business and there are an infinite amount of variables to take into account...
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yes go to the site written by the school accused of subjecting their students to mind altering physiological torture develouped by cults like synanon and totalitarian regimes like North Korea in return for huge amounts of money by unsuspecting parents. They are sure to give you an honest account.
I suggest you go to HEAL. there you can get testomonies of surivivors given under OATH. If they weren't tellin the truth Carlbrook would sue....In fact they could sue any of the posters on this site.its happened before with a character named overlord who went to HLA i beleive what they found out is that when you sue someone who is telling the truth you get into trouble...so they stopped suin. In fact every word you hear on this place about abusive torture cults is true....I mean what motivation would a child have to lie on an anonomyous internet forum? the acclaim? the fast paced lifestyle? the opprotunity to invent personal very detailed accounts of degradation and personal annhiliation by cults so cruel and sadistic george orwell coulsnt make it up? people really arent that creative you know.
what motivates us is horror, pain, sorrow at seeing other children completely destroyed ,ourselves partially or mostly destroyed and the desire to bring the culprits to justice.
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yes go to the site written by the school accused of subjecting their students to mind altering physiological torture develouped by cults like synanon and totalitarian regimes like North Korea in return for huge amounts of money by unsuspecting parents. They are sure to give you an honest account.
I suggest you go to HEAL. there you can get testomonies of surivivors given under OATH. If they weren't tellin the truth Carlbrook would sue....In fact they could sue any of the posters on this site.its happened before with a character named overlord who went to HLA i beleive what they found out is that when you sue someone who is telling the truth you get into trouble...so they stopped suin. In fact every word you hear on this place about abusive torture cults is true....I mean what motivation would a child have to lie on an anonomyous internet forum? the acclaim? the fast paced lifestyle? the opprotunity to invent personal very detailed accounts of degradation and personal annhiliation by cults so cruel and sadistic george orwell coulsnt make it up? people really arent that creative you know.
what motivates us is horror, pain, sorrow at seeing other children completely destroyed ,ourselves partially or mostly destroyed and the desire to bring the culprits to justice.
whoa dude...
what are YOU on?
North Korea... Haha I LAUGHED.
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oh by the way, you dont "get expelled" by these places in the same way you dont "get expelled" by prisons. WE ARE THERE AGAINST OUR WILL. WE RUN AWAY WE ARE CAPTURED AND SENT BACK! Being expelled is obviously not an option. Lord, if only I could have gotten expelled.!!
A little heartwaming story pops to mind of a girl from ELan who ate penicls to try to get lead poisoing, tried drinking cleaning fluids..than finnally stopped eating determined to ,as she said "to leave Elan or Idie". During this time much "therpy"(torture) was administered to force her submition. All the other children were forced to spit on her and she was not allowed to wipe away the flem while they emotionally abused her. I dont know all the therepies (torture)perhaps someone from elan wants to fill in what else happened to her.
Ultimately she got so thin that she had to be sent to the hospital.Elan wanted her back as soon as she had been force fed back to a safe weight. But her mother rescued her from the hell hole after she foud out what had been going on with her child as Elan never thought to inform her.... you kow dont want to jepardize that paycheck. So thats as close as you to being "expelled" from these places. Its running away, a parent, or a body bag.
I mean think about it, were there any criteria to get into the place other than considering your child a fuck up? If your only standard is being considered a fuck up, well, its pretty hard to fail at that.
Sometimes they will force a child to leave fthe instituion for wilderness- forced march for breaking purposes before they let the previously whole child back in. But then they just split the tuition with the wildnerness, or both the torture cult and the wilderness forced march are owned by the same operation. Remeber its about $$ so its really not leaving anyways
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yes go to the site written by the school accused of subjecting their students to mind altering physiological torture develouped by cults like synanon and totalitarian regimes like North Korea in return for huge amounts of money by unsuspecting parents. They are sure to give you an honest account.
I suggest you go to HEAL. there you can get testomonies of surivivors given under OATH. If they weren't tellin the truth Carlbrook would sue....In fact they could sue any of the posters on this site.its happened before with a character named overlord who went to HLA i beleive what they found out is that when you sue someone who is telling the truth you get into trouble...so they stopped suin. In fact every word you hear on this place about abusive torture cults is true....I mean what motivation would a child have to lie on an anonomyous internet forum? the acclaim? the fast paced lifestyle? the opprotunity to invent personal very detailed accounts of degradation and personal annhiliation by cults so cruel and sadistic george orwell coulsnt make it up? people really arent that creative you know.
what motivates us is horror, pain, sorrow at seeing other children completely destroyed ,ourselves partially or mostly destroyed and the desire to bring the culprits to justice.
whoa dude...
what are YOU on?
North Korea... Haha I LAUGHED.
Go research the Korean war and the POW camps... the techniques they used, who studied them...
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i have only read some of the postings here but i would just like to say as a former Calrbook student that it was the worst place i have ever been. I was part of the "rebellion" that happend their about a year ago and was sent to a government run juvinile detention facility where the kids really knew how to fight the staff...clubs shanks ect... i just want to say to all my friends i saw hurt at Carlbrook that i couldn't do more to help them.
o yea my parents went to jail in part for sending me to carlbrook, they used carlbrook as a tool to keep me from reporting years of abuse so fuck carlbrook and the parents who say that all parents are just trying to do the right thing. And fuck grant Price he was my bitch and i told him so when i was there.
sounds like a wonderful place. :roll:
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Overlordd never set foot on HLA premises.
There was no rebellion at Carlbrook.
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i have only read some of the postings here but i would just like to say as a former Calrbook student that it was the worst place i have ever been. I was part of the "rebellion" that happend their about a year ago and was sent to a government run juvinile detention facility where the kids really knew how to fight the staff...clubs shanks ect... i just want to say to all my friends i saw hurt at Carlbrook that i couldn't do more to help them.
o yea my parents went to jail in part for sending me to carlbrook, they used carlbrook as a tool to keep me from reporting years of abuse so fuck carlbrook and the parents who say that all parents are just trying to do the right thing. And fuck grant Price he was my bitch and i told him so when i was there.
I am glad to hear your parents were sent to jail. All program parents should be sent to jail for what they do to their kids. Many program kids I've met talk about abuse at home, and the parents wanting to use programs to get rid of them or cover it up. Shame on all program parents.
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I mean what motivation would a child have to lie on an anonomyous internet forum? the acclaim? the fast paced lifestyle? the opprotunity to invent personal very detailed accounts of degradation and personal annhiliation by cults so cruel and sadistic george orwell coulsnt make it up? people really arent that creative you know.
what motivates us is horror, pain, sorrow at seeing other children completely destroyed ,ourselves partially or mostly destroyed and the desire to bring the culprits to justice.
This was very well said.
The program parents have a lot of guilt to try and make up for and try to shut down any talk of abusive programs, since they are the one's who sent their children there.
Program staff and owners do the same thing trying to prevent being sent to jail and having their money sued away from them.
These people are absolutely scum of the planet!!
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Human beings are each wired differently and by sending your children there, you should not be looking for a "fix" for anything. Therapy is designed to do exactly that, promote healthier behavior, but not guarantee anything.
Sounds like an Ed Con.
14-19 months, $6,000/month + $20,000 for wilderness = $135,000.
And don't have any expectations?
Ever wonder why they have to make such a disclaimer?
Keep your kid home and get some intense family therapy, which unlike TBS/wilderness, is evidence-based with a higher success rate.
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Please describe Intense Family Therapy. What if the teen is completely unwilling to engage in this therapy?
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Please describe Intense Family Therapy. What if the teen is completely unwilling to engage in this therapy?
Then the rest of you go! Get the whole family to go even if the 'troubled teen' won't go, there are a billion things that can be learnt without the teen attending the appointments ... as the parents start to change the way they perceive things (i.e. panic panic panic, omg what will i do) the teen will engage with, and trust the parent, then he/she will start to engage in therapy sessions - you cannot expect a teen who does not trust anyone, even their own parents to engage with a complete stranger.
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exhausted, you have reached a new level of stupidity. Do you honestly think the rest of the family had not BEEN engaging in intense therapy? And what is going to happen while all this plays out?
Stick with things you know something about, like pot abuse in the UK.
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[quoteabusive torture cults is true....I mean what motivation would a child have to lie on an anonomyous internet forum? the acclaim? t
Go research the Korean war and the POW camps... the techniques they used, who studied them...
Carlbrook cannot be compared to North Korean POW camps. Whoever said to do more research, needs to do some more research himself.
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exhausted, you have reached a new level of stupidity. Do you honestly think the rest of the family had not BEEN engaging in intense therapy? And what is going to happen while all this plays out?
Stick with things you know something about, like pot abuse in the UK.
You asked!!!!
This is something I know ALOT about, so why give up on intense therapy, when a family breaks down all of the family need to sort their lives out, not just the teen, there's a reason why this behaviour started in the 1st place
Stupid
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exhausted, you have reached a new level of stupidity. Do you honestly think the rest of the family had not BEEN engaging in intense therapy? And what is going to happen while all this plays out?
Stick with things you know something about, like pot abuse in the UK.
You asked!!!!
This is something I know ALOT about, so why give up on intense therapy, when a family breaks down all of the family need to sort their lives out, not just the teen, there's a reason why this behaviour started in the 1st place
Stupid
Fucking bullshit!! Face it, you're an over-protective worrywart!!
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Yes I am over protective, and yes I do worry about my children, sorry for being the best parent I know how to be, maybe I should send them away to a program and let someone else do the parenting for me? no worries for me then.
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Yes I am over protective, and yes I do worry about my children, sorry for being the best parent I know how to be, maybe I should send them away to a program and let someone else do the parenting for me? no worries for me then.
Maybe they should hack yourt stupid fucking head off. :skull: ::madclown:: :rofl: ::bwahaha2:: ::bwahaha::
I hope they do!!!!!! ::both::
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Maybe they should
:roll:
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Maybe they should
Or you could save them the trouble and just kill yourself! :idea:
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I could :roll:
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Well perhaps you should... The world would be a better place.
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It might be :roll:
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Please describe Intense Family Therapy. What if the teen is completely unwilling to engage in this therapy?
Not that I condone this, but if you're going to "force" him into a teen warehouse to be held incommunicado from family and the outside world for up to two years, why not "force" him to attend therapy? Bribe, if necessary.
Yeh, yeh, I know, it's easier to pay someone else to "force" your kid to "grow". That's about as realistic as "forcing" your petunias to grow.
Given that it's usually poor parenting at fault, then you go alone and learn a different, more respectful way of interacting with your child. Makes a world of difference that can be witnessed in a very short time, if you're serious about your own "growth". A good therapist can accomplish in a month what programs claim to accomplish in 1-2 years, and without all the mind games, torture/abuse to gain compliance, and exhorbitant expense.
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That's what i said Deborah, you must be as stupid as me :lol:
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Parent/Child Communication without the power play is what you two described, it worked for me... The best thing is that you gain the child's ear and not just compliance, and no ptsd.
And to the guest picking on my favorite dumdum ::fuckoff::
j/k you're not dumb just European :o
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I think guest is for sure from carlbrook, and is doing PR damage control. It sounds like a very bad program. Older boys in charge of younger, no chances of molestation and abuse there, wilderness camp, sure. like Provo canyon, it's bull, the guy sound like someone over forty reading a script.
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I think guest is for sure from carlbrook, and is doing PR damage control. It sounds like a very bad program. Older boys in charge of younger, no chances of molestation and abuse there, wilderness camp, sure. like Provo canyon, it's bull, the guy sound like someone over forty reading a script.
Actually, before you pass judgment, do your research. At least when I was there, there was NO molestation and abuse. You guys on the board seem to advocate that these children are human beings and should not be dealt with in such atrocious manners and then contradict yourselves when you accuse the older students on molesting the young. People at Carlbrook are passionate about their work, and the older students generally appreciate what Carlbrook has allowed them to experience. The student body is quite liberal and we do have a voice. We are very similar to any other boarding school, except with the additional therapeutic aspect.
If you say I'm brainwashed, I really don't have a response to that. How do I respond? You'll just say I've been brainwashed. Can you really take free will from a human being though?
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Well, what Ill say is that you are not a "real student" Ill say you are staff or a former student who was raised to the level of staff- which is how all cults work, iniates become administrators...and it works out the same anyway
Saying that kids molest other kids is not inhumane, molesting them is inhumane, dearie
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I think guest is for sure from carlbrook, and is doing PR damage control. It sounds like a very bad program. Older boys in charge of younger, no chances of molestation and abuse there, wilderness camp, sure. like Provo canyon, it's bull, the guy sound like someone over forty reading a script.
Can you really take free will from a human being though?
Yes you can - How Thought Reform Works (http://http://www.freeminds.org/psych/thought_reform.htm)
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That's what i said Deborah, you must be as stupid as me :lol:
:wink: :wstupid:
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I haven't read any claims that Carlbrook is abusive in any way.
Our son was not sent away as a punishment. The consequences to him were that he lost a year of freedom, a year of athletics, a year of top schooling.
you know, I am amazed by the doublethink displayed by staff pretending to be parents or more scarily, parents themselves...A consequence is a punishment...do you not get that?
I mean you say
"our sone was not sent away as punishment"
and directly follow it by saying
I ""The consequences to him were that he lost a year of freedom, a year of athletics, a year of top schooling""
You are not only punishing him but in descibing the nature of the punishment/consquence you use the exact language used to describe the sorrow of being sent to prison--the ultimate most horrific punishment imaginable!
...Are these people insane.
No way this guy is for real..has to be staff, you know those folk without educations, with bizzare background woking at cults like the abuser Tim Brace, but in spite of it all are really caring, forgiving, wonderful people
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A consequence and a punishment are quite different. I agree that a consequence can certainly feel like a punishment. Are you opposed to consequences? I doubt many parents choose to spend huge amounts of money and send their child to a program such as Carlbrook just to punish them. They do this to try to help them and to protect them from their own behavior. At this point all therapy, bribing, normal consequences etc have failed. The teen is in danger. Yes, it is unpleasant for the teen to be taken away from home, forced to examine his or her behaviors and placed in a situation where therapy and reflection is not optional. A football player has just received a 1 year suspension from the NFL. Is this a consequence, a punishment or both?
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The football player will not be mentally and physically scarred for his punishment/consequence, you cannot compare, he also knew the rules and broke them after choosing to take up that profession, a kid does not choose to be an angry teen, it's something they can't help, they also don't choose to be dragged away in the night and sent away from their family ...
Ok so, the parent who pays loads to send their kid away because they want to change girlfriends, careers, sexuality? Is that punishment or consequence (YOU WILL NOT BE GAY! THIS IS YOUR CONSEQUENCE FOR BEING WHO YOU ARE!) this to me is callous, the oarents who send their kids away because they have become what the parents don't want them to be, what happened to live & let live? Letting a kid become his/her own person is the best gift you can give to them
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what happened to live & let live? Letting a kid become his/her own person is the best gift you can give to them
Funny you should pit that particular phrase out of the air. I've been talking to an old friend lately, here's art of his last reply:
So "troubled teen" is the industry's chosen moniker! (I went to http://www.googlefight.com (http://www.googlefight.com) and saw that "troubled teen" in on almost 1.5 million web pages!). What a redundant phrase. On googlefight.com, "live and let live" beat out "troubled teen" by 234 million to 1.5 million. These organizations should take note!
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A consequence and a punishment are quite different. I agree that a consequence can certainly feel like a punishment. Are you opposed to consequences? I doubt many parents choose to spend huge amounts of money and send their child to a program such as Carlbrook just to punish them. They do this to try to help them and to protect them from their own behavior. At this point all therapy, bribing, normal consequences etc have failed. The teen is in danger. Yes, it is unpleasant for the teen to be taken away from home, forced to examine his or her behaviors and placed in a situation where therapy and reflection is not optional. A football player has just received a 1 year suspension from the NFL. Is this a consequence, a punishment or both?
Wow, Im amazed at reading this...
A football player has just received a 1 year suspension from the NFL. Is this a consequence, a punishment or both?
You are absolutely right, it is both a "punishment" and a "consequnce" becasue these words are synanoms, as the holocaust is both "terrible" and "horrible"
I have often said torture-cults damage critical thinking abilities and here is an excellent example of that.
You are trying to argue that consequence is different than punishment .....but you use an example to prove this, which is clearly an example of a punishment
For bad behavior in the feild a football player is PUNISHED by being suspended. PUNISHMENT is used by the football assoc (or what not) to PUNISH the deviant player for his behavior.
What better example of punishment could there be, and yet, you are trying to argue that sending youth to program as a punishment they have earned, or consequense they have earned are different?
Why cant you see that? I'd suspect it has to do with the nature of cults which deliberately use "doublethink" to force people to a alternative reality where things are not what they obviously are.
Antigen you know more about this than I. What is the precise word for that?
I doubt many parents choose to spend huge amounts of money and send their child to a program such as Carlbrook just to punish them. They do this to try to help them and to protect them from their own behavior.
Yes they do send them solely to punish them.The point of punishment is NEVER solely suffering-which is what you are implying
To say the parents dont impron kids solely to suffer is meaningless....afterall parents don't SPANK kids SOLEY for the suffering quotient!!!...
They do it change the behavior, hopefully force the youth to internalize the shame and equate it with "the wrongdoing" she's being whipped for, make the youth "respect" the adult, stop the behavior...BUT SPANKING IS PUNISHMENT RIGHT?
Therefore so is program right? Afterall ...its done to us for the same exact supposed reasons.
And I say supposed beacsue those are the professed reason why youth are abducted imprisoned and tortured. The real reason is usually that mom and dad fall somewhere on that rainbow spectrum of insane.
Personally, I feel that parents should have consequences for sending their child to Carlbrook-cult. One lad had his parents put in jail. I think that is a fine consquence. I hope this helps the parent with their entitlement issues. When the parent gets out 5-10 years later Im sure he will be the mature parent he's always wanted
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Ok so, the parent who pays loads to send their kid away because they want to change girlfriends, careers, sexuality? Is that punishment or consequence (YOU WILL NOT BE GAY! THIS IS YOUR CONSEQUENCE FOR BEING WHO YOU ARE!) this to me is callous, the oarents who send their kids away because they have become what the parents don't want them to be, what happened to live & let live? Letting a kid become his/her own person is the best gift you can give to them
You are so totally full of shit if you think this is why parents send kids away. Funny how parents are supposed to practice "live & let live" when it comes to their kids, but the kids don't have to practice fuck-all. The kids can be total criminals, stealing everything they can get their hands on, taking all kinds of drugs and then driving their parent's car, refusing to go to school, refusing to get a job, being verbally and physically abusive to their parents or brothers and sisters -- in other words, doing whatever the fuck they want and expecting mom & dad to just take it...and keep paying the tab to support a completely insensitive little shit of an offspring.
Fuck that shit. Some kids get sent away simply because their parents are tired of being terrorized by the little demon they tried to raise to be a decent human being.
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A consequence and a punishment are quite different. I agree that a consequence can certainly feel like a punishment. Are you opposed to consequences? I doubt many parents choose to spend huge amounts of money and send their child to a program such as Carlbrook just to punish them. They do this to try to help them and to protect them from their own behavior. At this point all therapy, bribing, normal consequences etc have failed. The teen is in danger. Yes, it is unpleasant for the teen to be taken away from home, forced to examine his or her behaviors and placed in a situation where therapy and reflection is not optional. A football player has just received a 1 year suspension from the NFL. Is this a consequence, a punishment or both?
Why do you all sound the same, and use the same grammar and vocabulary.. or is this actually Karen still?
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Ok so, the parent who pays loads to send their kid away because they want to change girlfriends, careers, sexuality? Is that punishment or consequence (YOU WILL NOT BE GAY! THIS IS YOUR CONSEQUENCE FOR BEING WHO YOU ARE!) this to me is callous, the oarents who send their kids away because they have become what the parents don't want them to be, what happened to live & let live? Letting a kid become his/her own person is the best gift you can give to them
You are so totally full of shit if you think this is why parents send kids away. Funny how parents are supposed to practice "live & let live" when it comes to their kids, but the kids don't have to practice fuck-all. The kids can be total criminals, stealing everything they can get their hands on, taking all kinds of drugs and then driving their parent's car, refusing to go to school, refusing to get a job, being verbally and physically abusive to their parents or brothers and sisters -- in other words, doing whatever the fuck they want and expecting mom & dad to just take it...and keep paying the tab to support a completely insensitive little shit of an offspring.
Fuck that shit. Some kids get sent away simply because their parents are tired of being terrorized by the little demon they tried to raise to be a decent human being.
:rofl:
Welcome back, karen.
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Ok so, the parent who pays loads to send their kid away because they want to change girlfriends, careers, sexuality? Is that punishment or consequence (YOU WILL NOT BE GAY! THIS IS YOUR CONSEQUENCE FOR BEING WHO YOU ARE!) this to me is callous, the oarents who send their kids away because they have become what the parents don't want them to be, what happened to live & let live? Letting a kid become his/her own person is the best gift you can give to them
You are so totally full of shit if you think this is why parents send kids away. Funny how parents are supposed to practice "live & let live" when it comes to their kids, but the kids don't have to practice fuck-all. The kids can be total criminals, stealing everything they can get their hands on, taking all kinds of drugs and then driving their parent's car, refusing to go to school, refusing to get a job, being verbally and physically abusive to their parents or brothers and sisters -- in other words, doing whatever the fuck they want and expecting mom & dad to just take it...and keep paying the tab to support a completely insensitive little shit of an offspring.
Fuck that shit. Some kids get sent away simply because their parents are tired of being terrorized by the little demon they tried to raise to be a decent human being.
Ha,Ha,Ha,.. thats funny!
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Program parents get a kick out of calling their children names and paying others to humiliate them in public. They sit around in parent support meetings and say horrible things. I know because my sibling was sent away and I sat in the back of one of these meetings. These parents are horrible people.
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As a parent who is/was tired of her kids thinking they can do exactly what they like...let me set the record straight.........
No, the answer is not to let them get away with it and do exactly as they please while you sit there & take it, the answer is to find out wtf is wrong in the first place to make the kid want to rebel against you so badly, getting to know yourself and your children is nearly impossibly difficult but it can be done, taking a few steps back to assess the situation from an outside point of view can do wonders, backing off when you're not particuarly pleased with the path your child is going down is likely to make them come to you to seek approval, to find the answers from you! because you are the person they genuinely look up to!
A screaming, hysterical parent is not going to get anywhere with their kids, all that happens is the kid blocks it out *yer yer here we go again, yah yah yah yah, heard it all before, oh look my favourite Tv program is on, I'll chuck in a few nods and uh huh's just to shut this screaming banshee up!*
They aren't listening, they don't want to be told how much you dissaprove of them, how much you don't like them - they are teenagers, they are meant to grow and develop their own path, as long as they know you are there, that they can trust you to talk without getting a lecture, without the dreaded hysteria, they will come to you, they will discuss with you, debate, argue, but the end result is always the same, you give them the tools to decide which way they are going to go with it and they will use them, all the time with the knowledge that if they decide to take a dodghy path, they will face the consequences, not you, not anyone else, them! It's natural for any person who has had time to talk things out and weigh up the consequence to decide on what society calls the right path, yes, you'll get a few who will go hurling down dodgy street anyways, but those kids are going that way wether the issues are dealt with at home or in some program
Kids are sent away for stupid reasons, that cannot be denied, the programs themselves advertise that they can fix being Gay, ADHD, Depression .....oh please, come on, these are not fixable things, they are who the kid is, nothing will change that.
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A consequence and a punishment are quite different. I agree that a consequence can certainly feel like a punishment. Are you opposed to consequences? I doubt many parents choose to spend huge amounts of money and send their child to a program such as Carlbrook just to punish them. They do this to try to help them and to protect them from their own behavior. At this point all therapy, bribing, normal consequences etc have failed. The teen is in danger. Yes, it is unpleasant for the teen to be taken away from home, forced to examine his or her behaviors and placed in a situation where therapy and reflection is not optional. A football player has just received a 1 year suspension from the NFL. Is this a consequence, a punishment or both?
Very well said. A night in the gorilla cage can work wonders for a recalcitrant druggie.
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As a parent who is/was tired of her kids thinking they can do exactly what they like...let me set the record straight.........
No, the answer is not to let them get away with it and do exactly as they please while you sit there & take it, the answer is to find out wtf is wrong in the first place to make the kid want to rebel against you so badly, getting to know yourself and your children is nearly impossibly difficult but it can be done, taking a few steps back to assess the situation from an outside point of view can do wonders, backing off when you're not particuarly pleased with the path your child is going down is likely to make them come to you to seek approval, to find the answers from you! because you are the person they genuinely look up to!
A screaming, hysterical parent is not going to get anywhere with their kids, all that happens is the kid blocks it out *yer yer here we go again, yah yah yah yah, heard it all before, oh look my favourite Tv program is on, I'll chuck in a few nods and uh huh's just to shut this screaming banshee up!*
They aren't listening, they don't want to be told how much you dissaprove of them, how much you don't like them - they are teenagers, they are meant to grow and develop their own path, as long as they know you are there, that they can trust you to talk without getting a lecture, without the dreaded hysteria, they will come to you, they will discuss with you, debate, argue, but the end result is always the same, you give them the tools to decide which way they are going to go with it and they will use them, all the time with the knowledge that if they decide to take a dodghy path, they will face the consequences, not you, not anyone else, them! It's natural for any person who has had time to talk things out and weigh up the consequence to decide on what society calls the right path, yes, you'll get a few who will go hurling down dodgy street anyways, but those kids are going that way wether the issues are dealt with at home or in some program
Kids are sent away for stupid reasons, that cannot be denied, the programs themselves advertise that they can fix being Gay, ADHD, Depression .....oh please, come on, these are not fixable things, they are who the kid is, nothing will change that.
Brilliant answer luv! Now what do you do when your kid doesn't want or need your approval or to talk to you, and his idea of "grow and develop their own path" means little more than do as many drugs as possible, do as little work as possible, choose "criminal" as an occupation, hurt as many people as possible during your brief stay on this earth, constantly remind everyone that life is pointless and it makes no difference who lives or who dies today or tomorrow?
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Personally, I feel that parents should have consequences for sending their child to Carlbrook-cult. One lad had his parents put in jail. I think that is a fine consquence. I hope this helps the parent with their entitlement issues. When the parent gets out 5-10 years later Im sure he will be the mature parent he's always wanted
Whenever we've encountered this problem we offered the service to parents of having our private terminators dispatch these ungrateful little bastards. (Hey, they would have died on the streets anyway.) That's just one of the many things that sets SIBS apart from the rest!
Remember, SIBS is the Wave of the Future in Drug Treatment.™
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Brilliant answer luv! Now what do you do when your kid doesn't want or need your approval or to talk to you, and his idea of "grow and develop their own path" means little more than do as many drugs as possible, do as little work as possible, choose "criminal" as an occupation, hurt as many people as possible during your brief stay on this earth, constantly remind everyone that life is pointless and it makes no difference who lives or who dies today or tomorrow?
You send them to Carlbrook! :rofl:
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You are so totally full of shit if you think this is why parents send kids away. Funny how parents are supposed to practice "live & let live" when it comes to their kids, but the kids don't have to practice fuck-all. The kids can be total criminals, stealing everything they can get their hands on, taking all kinds of drugs and then driving their parent's car, refusing to go to school, refusing to get a job, being verbally and physically abusive to their parents or brothers and sisters -- in other words, doing whatever the fuck they want and expecting mom & dad to just take it...and keep paying the tab to support a completely insensitive little shit of an offspring.
Fuck that shit. Some kids get sent away simply because their parents are tired of being terrorized by the little demon they tried to raise to be a decent human being.
Absolutely! ::hehehmm::
I agree 100%!! :tup:
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Now what do you do when your kid doesn't want or need your approval or to talk to you
Stop referring to them as a demon child for starters. :roll:
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Ok so, the parent who pays loads to send their kid away because they want to change girlfriends, careers, sexuality? Is that punishment or consequence (YOU WILL NOT BE GAY! THIS IS YOUR CONSEQUENCE FOR BEING WHO YOU ARE!) this to me is callous, the oarents who send their kids away because they have become what the parents don't want them to be, what happened to live & let live? Letting a kid become his/her own person is the best gift you can give to them
You are so totally full of shit if you think this is why parents send kids away. Funny how parents are supposed to practice "live & let live" when it comes to their kids, but the kids don't have to practice fuck-all. The kids can be total criminals, stealing everything they can get their hands on, taking all kinds of drugs and then driving their parent's car, refusing to go to school, refusing to get a job, being verbally and physically abusive to their parents or brothers and sisters -- in other words, doing whatever the fuck they want and expecting mom & dad to just take it...and keep paying the tab to support a completely insensitive little shit of an offspring.
Fuck that shit. Some kids get sent away simply because their parents are tired of being terrorized by the little demon they tried to raise to be a decent human being.
How would you know why "kids get sent away?"
let me guess, you are staff, nes pa?
You speech falls in line with the hate staff exude..as well as your...hmmm shall we say "down home" method of self expression
[parents are tired of being terrorized by the little demon they tried to raise to be a decent human being
Wow, just a bit earlier I was reading how caring and sensitive an environment Carlbrook ...doesnt sound like the most "sensitive" way to talk about a sick child?
Oh ...but its not medical care for sick children is it? Like I said, ITS ABOUT PUNISHING THE BRATS!
Or rather through your use of double-think its caring for children sensitively one moment and PUNISHING BRATS the next. You have two conflicting ideas and throgh your use of double think, and just through being the fantastic moron that you are..you dont even know it!
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A consequence and a punishment are quite different. I agree that a consequence can certainly feel like a punishment. Are you opposed to consequences? I doubt many parents choose to spend huge amounts of money and send their child to a program such as Carlbrook just to punish them. They do this to try to help them and to protect them from their own behavior. At this point all therapy, bribing, normal consequences etc have failed. The teen is in danger. Yes, it is unpleasant for the teen to be taken away from home, forced to examine his or her behaviors and placed in a situation where therapy and reflection is not optional. A football player has just received a 1 year suspension from the NFL. Is this a consequence, a punishment or both?
Wow, Im amazed at reading this...
A football player has just received a 1 year suspension from the NFL. Is this a consequence, a punishment or both?
You are absolutely right, it is both a "punishment" and a "consequnce" becasue these words are synanoms, as the holocaust is both "terrible" and "horrible"
I have often said torture-cults damage critical thinking abilities and here is an excellent example of that.
You are trying to argue that consequence is different than punishment .....but you use an example to prove this, which is clearly an example of a punishment
For bad behavior in the feild a football player is PUNISHED by being suspended. PUNISHMENT is used by the football assoc (or what not) to PUNISH the deviant player for his behavior.
What better example of punishment could there be, and yet, you are trying to argue that sending youth to program as a punishment they have earned, or consequense they have earned are different?
Why cant you see that? I'd suspect it has to do with the nature of cults which deliberately use "doublethink" to force people to a alternative reality where things are not what they obviously are.
Antigen you know more about this than I. What is the precise word for that?
I doubt many parents choose to spend huge amounts of money and send their child to a program such as Carlbrook just to punish them. They do this to try to help them and to protect them from their own behavior.
Yes they do send them solely to punish them.The point of punishment is NEVER solely suffering-which is what you are implying
To say the parents dont impron kids solely to suffer is meaningless....afterall parents don't SPANK kids SOLEY for the suffering quotient!!!...
They do it change the behavior, hopefully force the youth to internalize the shame and equate it with "the wrongdoing" she's being whipped for, make the youth "respect" the adult, stop the behavior...BUT SPANKING IS PUNISHMENT RIGHT?
Therefore so is program right? Afterall ...its done to us for the same exact supposed reasons.
And I say "supposed" beacaue those are the professed reason why youth are abducted imprisoned and tortured. The real reason is usually that mom and dad fall somewhere on that rainbow spectrum of insane.
Personally, I feel that parents should have consequences for sending their child to Carlbrook-cult. One lad had his parents put in jail. I think that is a fine consquence. I hope this helps the parent with their entitlement issues. When the parent gets out 5-10 years later Im sure he will be the mature parent he's always wanted
you never resonded to me..so id thought id repost it. Also Id like to ask you if you think the consequences for the parents who were sent to prison for putting their kid in Carlbrook were appropriate.
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No parents were sent to prison for sending their kid to Carlbrook. Read the post a little more carefully before you distort things.
Exhausted, Carlbrook never claimed to be able to fix "gayness" or "ADHD". Once again, you have no basis for your ignorant comments.
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You are absolutely right, it is both a "punishment" and a "consequnce" becasue these words are synanoms, as the holocaust is both "terrible" and "horrible".
Well, not quite.
A 'punishment' is a 'consequence'. A human imposed 'negative' con, designed to extinguish a behavior.
The industry misuses the term. It's softer than punishment, just as 'agreements' is softer than 'rules'. And really does imply that the person deserves the punishment they're receiving.
Consequence is the 'effect' part of 'cause and effect', which we learn from on a daily basis provided our brain is not damaged- touch a hot stove and you get burned.
That's an example of 'natural' consequence, vs human imposed consequences.
There's also 'positive' cons. If I plant seed at the right time and ensure the seed has proper nurishment, water, sun; I'm rewarded with flowers and food. If there's no rain and I don't provide water, my flowers and food may perish.
Programs even have 'positive' cons. :roll: For instance, provided you keep your mouth shut, don't get out of formation, and admit to faults you don't possess; you are rewarded (positive con) with a white bread and cheese sandwich for lunch and dinner, for months on end..... and avoid the 'negative cons' of being restrained and/or being denied contact with your loved ones.
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Brilliant answer luv! Now what do you do when your kid doesn't want or need your approval or to talk to you, and his idea of "grow and develop their own path" means little more than do as many drugs as possible, do as little work as possible, choose "criminal" as an occupation, hurt as many people as possible during your brief stay on this earth, constantly remind everyone that life is pointless and it makes no difference who lives or who dies today or tomorrow?
Wow, are you talking about your child or the niggers?
Doesnt matter, either way that hate-filled dehumnizing cariciture comes from the same dark recess of the psyche.
I sugest you join the Klan and get a new emotional target for your disatisfactions, humiliations, and need to feel dominant through scapegoatery who is more your size than your own child.
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i have only read some of the postings here but i would just like to say as a former Calrbook student that it was the worst place i have ever been. I was part of the "rebellion" that happend their about a year ago and was sent to a government run juvinile detention facility where the kids really knew how to fight the staff...clubs shanks ect... i just want to say to all my friends i saw hurt at Carlbrook that i couldn't do more to help them.
o yea my parents went to jail in part for sending me to carlbrook, they used carlbrook as a tool to keep me from reporting years of abuse so fuck carlbrook and the parents who say that all parents are just trying to do the right thing. And fuck grant Price he was my bitch and i told him so when i was there.
Here is the quote. I suggest you read more carefully. They were sent to jail in part for sening him to Carlbrook as they used it as a tool for keeping him from reporting the abuse.
What do you think of that consequence?. Is it appropriate?
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I suspect if you checked into the matter you would discover that the actual placement at Carlbrook had absolutely nothing to do with any jail sentence. Can I sell you some property, while we're at it?
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Prison is the appropriate punishment. All parents who resort to locking a child up against their will should be sent to prison because it should be against the law. Reading what these insane program parents write must be like going to a NAMBLA meeting. They sit around and discuss sick and disgusting child abuse, and to them it is completely normal and acceptable. I hope more parents are sent to prison for this sort of unethical behavior.
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Good luck with that!
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I suspect if you checked into the matter you would discover that the actual placement at Carlbrook had absolutely nothing to do with any jail sentence. Can I sell you some property, while we're at it?
It is used by program parents as a place to send their child to be hidden from society where they do not report abuse. The parents pay to keep the kid silenced, yes it had everything to do with it! That's why you get so upset when reading this website, you want to keep these safe haven for child abusers like yourself open, sorry but it's coming to an end you sick freak!!!
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Makes you wonder if Karen's son had a secret about his mom or dad that he threatened to reveal? Then he got escorted away and the place doesn't report it to authorities. It is a clever scam for abusive parents.
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Ok so, the parent who pays loads to send their kid away because they want to change girlfriends, careers, sexuality? Is that punishment or consequence (YOU WILL NOT BE GAY! THIS IS YOUR CONSEQUENCE FOR BEING WHO YOU ARE!) this to me is callous, the oarents who send their kids away because they have become what the parents don't want them to be, what happened to live & let live? Letting a kid become his/her own person is the best gift you can give to them
You are so totally full of shit if you think this is why parents send kids away. Funny how parents are supposed to practice "live & let live" when it comes to their kids, but the kids don't have to practice fuck-all. The kids can be total criminals, stealing everything they can get their hands on, taking all kinds of drugs and then driving their parent's car, refusing to go to school, refusing to get a job, being verbally and physically abusive to their parents or brothers and sisters -- in other words, doing whatever the fuck they want and expecting mom & dad to just take it...and keep paying the tab to support a completely insensitive little shit of an offspring.
Fuck that shit. Some kids get sent away simply because their parents are tired of being terrorized by the little demon they tried to raise to be a decent human being.
No, you are wrong. I think you are projecting your situation on the masses. There are many kids who are sent away because their religious/political views differ from their parents, parents don't like their kids boy/girlfriend, bad grades, talking back, stress between kid and step-parent, parents social schedule is too full to parent, etc. etc.
The 'little demon' wasn't born that way, yet is sent away to be punished/ conditioned for the inadequacies of his parents. When a kid is physically abusing their parent, there is some serious lack of teaching and boundaries going on the household. Is that the kids fault? At what point did he learn that his parents would tolerate physical violence? I'm guessing it probably started around 2.
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Yeah, that's it! You've finally figured it out.
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Brilliant answer luv! Now what do you do when your kid doesn't want or need your approval or to talk to you, and his idea of "grow and develop their own path" means little more than do as many drugs as possible, do as little work as possible, choose "criminal" as an occupation, hurt as many people as possible during your brief stay on this earth, constantly remind everyone that life is pointless and it makes no difference who lives or who dies today or tomorrow?
That is HOPELESSNESS, and a common source of parentally distressing behavior. Learned helplessness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness)
Why do you think your kid felt that depth of hopeless/helplessness? Any clue? When did it first manifest? Did you ever explore that with him, or pay someone else to help him explore it?
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I suspect if you checked into the matter you would discover that the actual placement at Carlbrook had absolutely nothing to do with any jail sentence. Can I sell you some property, while we're at it?
How about you sell me an "emotional growth school" , where the deans Time Brace , Justin Merrit, and Grant Price were hands on torturing kids in one officially confirmed cult and another suspected cult Cedu and Cascade both synanon offshoots that were both were shut down by abuse issues, where kids personally can testify seeing Tim emotional and physically abuse kids, where there is only one liscenced phD in psych who comes from off campus once a week, where kids are subject to the whims and under the authority of other kids whom you say are "criminals "and have so far devoted themselves to "hurting as people as they can"-that "positive peer culture" -youth enforcers you corrupt instead of hiring staff, that is not liscened for health services, and insists kids achieve a "softening up" mental breakdown through a forced march before confinement for 5000$s a month or so
Oh no, Im not that stupid
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Now what do you do when your kid doesn't want or need your approval or to talk to you
Stop referring to them as a demon child for starters. :roll:
Of course, never to their face. But what if they really are a demon child?
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Now what do you do when your kid doesn't want or need your approval or to talk to you
Stop referring to them as a demon child for starters. :roll:
Of course, never to their face. But what if they really are a demon child?
Who the fuck is this? Karen?
Eat shit and die, you're wasting your time here.
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Now what do you do when your kid doesn't want or need your approval or to talk to you
Stop referring to them as a demon child for starters. :roll:
Of course, never to their face. But what if they really are a demon child?
Must of been raised by demon parents.
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Now what do you do when your kid doesn't want or need your approval or to talk to you
Stop referring to them as a demon child for starters. :roll:
Of course, never to their face. But what if they really are a demon child?
Must of been raised by demon parents.
That hit the nail on the head !!!
Parenting means to guide, love, prroterct and help their child as much as possible to do what they, (THE CHILD) should consider is right or wrong
it is not about controlling or forcing your kid into being a clone of yourself or forcing them to believe in the same thing as you do - their minds are individual to ours, it is up to the parents to give them the tools to make those choices, I wish with my whole heart someone had given me my own advise a long long time ago
By the way, I never said Carlbrook advertises correction of Gayness/Adhd, depression, I was talking about some programs who do
In answer to what I do once my kids don't look to me for advice or approval etc.....I would like to hope that we will have built up a good enough relationship that they will always come to their mum, if they don't, then theyll be adults by that time and must do what they do
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******
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worse than the christian richt.
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An old thread... lost lots of pages apparently...
What's been going on with Carlbrook?
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My ex-wife is sending my son to Carlbrook against my wishes. Is their anyone that has resently attended Carlbrook that is willing to share their experiences with me?
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My ex-wife is sending my son to Carlbrook against my wishes. Is their anyone that has resently attended Carlbrook that is willing to share their experiences with me?
I know a one Carlbrook parent who might be willing to talk with you on this subject. I'll alert her to your message. Can you email me a way to contact you (even email) to http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?topic=20531.0 (http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?topic=20531.0)
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Alternative source: http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/fornitswiki/index.php/Carlbrook (http://http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/fornitswiki/index.php/Carlbrook)
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Do not sent your child to Carlbrook, as long as Grant Price is still in charge. For eleven months, I begged my parents to be sent anywhere else. Not home, just somewhere else. If forcing your child into treatment really seems like your best and only option, take a look at the Oakley School. For me, it was far less damaging and a lot easier to get into college from, as well as far more realistic, providing a little bit of freedom and seeing what you do with it, then tailoring the program to you from there. You get to be a lot more active and it provides far more opportunities for growth. Carlbrook needs to be shut down-- I can see that it began with good intentions but the fact that there have been two attempted "uprising" or "underground" situations in the last few years should be telltale enough, and the therapy is aggressive and hostile.
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Do not sent your child to Carlbrook, as long as Grant Price is still in charge. For eleven months, I begged my parents to be sent anywhere else. Not home, just somewhere else. If forcing your child into treatment really seems like your best and only option, take a look at the Oakley School. For me, it was far less damaging and a lot easier to get into college from, as well as far more realistic, providing a little bit of freedom and seeing what you do with it, then tailoring the program to you from there. You get to be a lot more active and it provides far more opportunities for growth. Carlbrook needs to be shut down-- I can see that it began with good intentions but the fact that there have been two attempted "uprising" or "underground" situations in the last few years should be telltale enough, and the therapy is aggressive and hostile.
The Carlbrook "school" is a cult masquerading as a school that operates as a rentable gulag/torture chamber. It was founded by former Cedu disciples and gurus and continues the Synanon tradition of cultic torture.
Pysborge, will you fill everyone in on the particulars, please.
There will be a site dedicated to Cedu and its reincarnations soon that will be very, very public. I hope you'll provide your testimony there, friend.
Also, the people who founded carlbrook DO NOT have good intentions. They are quite aware of their criminality, hence their secrecy and duplicity.
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Do not sent your child to Carlbrook, as long as Grant Price is still in charge. For eleven months, I begged my parents to be sent anywhere else. Not home, just somewhere else. If forcing your child into treatment really seems like your best and only option, take a look at the Oakley School. For me, it was far less damaging and a lot easier to get into college from, as well as far more realistic, providing a little bit of freedom and seeing what you do with it, then tailoring the program to you from there. You get to be a lot more active and it provides far more opportunities for growth. Carlbrook needs to be shut down-- I can see that it began with good intentions but the fact that there have been two attempted "uprising" or "underground" situations in the last few years should be telltale enough, and the therapy is aggressive and hostile.
Ha,Ha,Ha, you are so funny! We get the same posts over and over on fornits just like this, around and round we go! Carlbrook is a safe school that helps kids, and doesn't need to be shut down. What needs to be shut is your mouth, for making up lies and harming a reputable school. Fornits attracts a certain breed of asshole just like you, just be lucky you aren't my kid I wouldn't take this kind of crap from you. You'd get a swift kick in the jaw for making up stories like this.
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Whargarrrble bullshit bullshit bullshit
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Good lord, get over yourself. ::)
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Do any parents want to comment on recent experiences at Carlbrook?
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I'm a Carlbrook dad. My son has been there for 10 months after 7 weeks at SUWS Idaho.
What would you like to know?
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What would you like to know?
What the fuck is wrong with you?
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What would you like to know?
A couple questions, to start....
Is parent-child communication severed, restricted or monitored at any time? How? What was the explanation the program gave you for this practice?
What are the parent seminars like? Did you find them odd?
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I graduated from Carlbrook in 2008 after being there for 19 months (plus 3 months of wilderness therapy). Communication IS monitored. All incoming and outgoing letters are screened. My parents and I often didn't get each others' letters or huge hunks were edited out (we would bring up parts of the letters on phone calls only to discover that they had been mysteriously removed). Phone calls are monitored by Laura The Phone Lady as well. If you have a "tone" in your voice or say anything anti-Carlbrook, she emails your adviser and you are punished with bans/an Action Plan/suspension/taken away visits/etc. If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
At Carlbrook, I was a golden child -- supported workshops, Head of the Friends Committee, Prefect, etc...however, after graduating and looking back, I realize how completely brainwashed I was.
Carlbrook is preferable to hellholes like Elan and Island View, but I still recognize how unnecessary and scarring some of my experiences were there. Being forced to go to my own funeral, being hit on by creepy old teachers, being viciously destroyed verbally in group for no reason (false accusations happened all the time at Carlbrook and there was no way to deny them), being convinced that I was crazy and disgusting so that they could "fix me" and show me how I wasn't (even though I never thought I was in the first place...), etc.
Carlbrook taught me the valuable lesson of how to know when to bend over and take it up the ass, honestly. Carlbrook taught me how to pick my battles and when it was best to submit and just play along. I got some good stuff out of Carlbrook (good friends, Andy Coe, etc.) but overall it screwed me up.
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Is parent-child communication severed, restricted or monitored at any time? How? What was the explanation the program gave you for this practice?
At the beginning the regularly-scheduled phone calls are biweekly. I believe they after the first workshop we got weekly calls. My son has not mentioned any monitoring of the calls, has not help back comments and has not mentioned any repercussions for comments made. LK's comment about Laura makes no sense unless her calls were earlier in the day than ours since Laura is not there in the evenings.
They will also set up regular calls to siblings and grandparents if requested.
I have had occassion to request unscheduled calls and have never been denied.
Letters do go through the advisor but I have seen no evidence of censoring.
It is completely illogical to believe that censoring exists. You have time alone with your child during visits and they'd be nuts to think that things aren't said. We had a situation that we brought to admin's attention and it resulted in a procedural change to improve one of the workshops. Everyone is pleased with the change and my son was thanked for being the impetus for that change.
IMO, you create your own paranoia.
What are the parent seminars like? Did you find them odd?
The parent meetings are a mixed bag. They are at times silly, uncomfortable and repetitive. Other times they are interesting, informative and beneficial. I'm sure some parents with no experience with similar exercises find them particularly odd, but you need to take from them what you want, what works for you, and leave the rest behind. There is no one-size-fits-all. If you're an adult you should have the ability to deal with it. Much of what goes on is no different than what you might experience at a corporate retreat or in an organization like the Jaycees.
Is CB perfect? Of course not, but it's done wonders for us. My son is happy and lookng forward to attending one of the 6 universities he's been accepted to -- schools that would not have been possible otherwise.
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schools that would not have been possible otherwise.
oh, here we go again, with the hypothetical argument.
Can we all definitively say in one breath that we have no idea how we, (or, conversely, our kid who we decided to get rid of for a few years) would have turned out if not for the program?
It bores me.
Do a comprehensive double-blind study with a control group, then maybe you'll have grounds to open your piehole about this. Otherwise, shut your face, cause you don't know SHIT.
Here, read this: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27137 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27137)
Some ideas on how to conduct such a thing.
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AKA pre-emptive and eternal buyers remorse prevention clause
"My child....otherwise...."
Had my 3rd cousin, the bond trader, otherwise chosen a career in animal husbandry he wouldn't have perished in tower 2.
Had I opened my mouth - and said so - I wouldn't know Mel.
Praying for tidal waves
Suck it down
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Amazing bullshit.
There's nothing hypothetical about knowing that a kid using drugs, cutting class, and heading down a road to ruin has no chance. I doubt that my son would have finished high school let alone get accepted to a good college.
My son is grateful for Carlbrook. I'm sorry that some of you are either too obstinate or too stupid to know that you need help.
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Amazing bullshit.
There's nothing hypothetical about knowing that a kid using drugs, cutting class, and heading down a road to ruin has no chance. I doubt that my son would have finished high school let alone get accepted to a good college.
My son is grateful for Carlbrook. I'm sorry that some of you are either too obstinate or too stupid to know that you need help.
Using drugs, cutting class - OMG!
Well... thanks for the instant reminder how much an asshole a parent must be to use a program.
I bet you called your kid stupid all the time too, jerk!
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Your kid is in college.
Good for him.
How is he going to reconcile his experience in 3, 5, 10, 15 years?
Oh that's right.
You don't have a plan for that.
I'll never forget Doug Kim Brown, the 1990 headmaster of RMA, telling me how he responded to his most vexing 'treatment' question from 'outsiders'.
What if the kid does well for a few years after graduation, and then fucks up. What if he really fucks up and is no better off?
His canned response was:
"These parents desperately wanted their (normal) kid back, these parents wanted to make things right, WE GAVE them that result. Even if it was for just 2 years".
I remember him telling me that - that answer was magnificent.
It was "The Answer".
Healing, therapeutic, applicable, 'one in a million', .
His sermon verified my hollow and purchased redemption.
Resolution.
I was in complete reverance of that statement for 15 years (as you are now).
Now it is clear. Doug bought into the program in the beginning, felt he was doing his best. And soon realized it was a CEDU crock of shit.
The justification justified short term profit. It just justified the means to your end.
If you come here to fornits to claim we are all degenerates. If you come here to claim that there are now 'plenty' of good programs. Then you are obligated to address the malfesance of the industry's foundation.
Your well spent money on your fixed kid is a direct result of the guinea pigging of the 70's, 80's and the 90's.
Their is a wake of destruction with kids who went through the programs in that era.
Stand up and take accountability for your holy grail.
Wake up and smell the aftermath.
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I'll stand by my word.
Google Doug Kim Brown.
Call his school in Northern Idaho (just north of Bonners Ferry, ID {AKA RMA/CEDU})
and ask him:
1. Why did you leave RMA?
2. How is your program different from RMA"
3. How is your program similar to RMA ?
4. What are your top 3 regrets/disapointments during your RMA tenure?
5. Give me a 2 minute overview of the industry.
6. Give me your 30 second opinon of the 'industry's' downside.
7. Give me your 30 second opinion of the 'industry's' upside.
# 8
Oh shit - reason does not apply to emotionally charged parents with 'out of control' teens !!
Instead just bury your head deeper in your ass flavored sand.
Throw money at everything
Throw money at money while you're at it
Then we can have a nationally syndicated, Donald Trump endorsed TV show called:
Throw money at money apprentice
or
When things get bad just throw more money at it and publicise the shit out of it !!
Fucking kids ... how many hundred dollar bills will it take to make them behave ?
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Sounds like it's all hopeless for you.
Is every car a piece of shit because the Yugo existed?
What's your solution?
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I'm sorry.
I just got back from Target.
I bought this gadget
A currency printing press.
Everything has gone to my head.
I'm printing hundred dollar bills by the dozen.
All the wealth.
You know.
It goes to my head.
I forget who I am.
I forget why I am here.
I forget why I go to work.
I just know I need a lot of money to make my situation work.
I have a wife.
I have kids.
I have a house.
I have credit cards.
I can deal with that
but
I have 1 kid who is a fucking pain in the ass.
He won't lobotomize.
I just wanted to get married.
I just wanted a wife.
I just wanted a kid.
Now everything is fucked up.
I don't have the ability to deal with him.
Now I need a program.
Doesn't anyone have the fucking answer?
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My solution?
Are you fucking kidding me?
How about a time machine you cock sucker?
How about we all stop arguing and paying each other ridiculous sums of imaginary money and
treat each other with common decency.
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When I go to the " Yugo piece of shit car event" in des moines iowa in 2044
I'll make sure I stop by your Yugo tent and engage in a
ro
sham
bo
type of
event with you.
loser gets to kick himself in the nuts repeatedly
are you game?
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and heading down a road to ruin has no chance. I doubt that my son would have finished high school let alone get accepted to a good college.
That is the purest definition of hypothetical ever.
Thank you for proving my point.
Psy should get you in touch with a certain parent who used to feel the same way you did. Then she started listening to her kid, who is also a carlbrook grad, and what they went through, and changed her tune. It was amazing, and the biggest 180 I've ever witnessed. I wasn't impressed simply because she started to agree with people, in fact, she is in full capacity of her own opinion. Rather, she started actually realizing that being a parent doesn't always mean you are entirely 100% right 100% of the time.
Let me clue you in to a little secret. When a kid has a problem, it is not just the kid's problem. It's a family problem, and everyone has had a hand in it. These places always place the blame on the kid, even if admissions tells you it's a family problem.
I am a CEDU alum, and my program was almost identical to Carlbrook's, since that is where CB got its dogma from. We were the parent of the program your kid went to. Would you like to know what they start teaching you the minute you walk in the door? That your parents are unfeeling assholes who have done nothing but crush your inner child since day 1, and sent you away because they just want to abandon you. Hell, the first workshop, called the truth at CEDU, and I believe is called integritas at CB, bases it's entire premise on how your "chrome ball" was sullied and made filthy by people in your life who have done nothing but keep you down. The #1 culprit they tell you? Your parents. You spend almost every rap doubled over, snot pouring out of your nose, screaming "FUCK YOU MOM! FUCK YOU DAD!" Then the program turns around and tells you that your parents did the best they could, while at the same time teaching the kid that you are both uncaring assholes. It's totally schizophrenic. These are some of the things that your child will never tell you about carlbrook, because while they are still indoctrinated, they ally themselves with carlbrook, not you. (BTW, chances are that will wear off after a few years, and then the post-program roulette wheel will spin and land on a number that will determine the REAL course your relationship with your now adult offspring will take. Let's hope it doesn't hit green, because that's happened, and then your kid will be in the ground.)
The CEDU clones don't fix your family. They BECOME your family. The family that REALLY understands, and while your son/daughter is under the influence, that is where their heart lay. Once they come out of it, (if they do), there is a good possibility that they will at least harbor SOME level of resentment for you, for the rest of their lives. This is also hypothetical as it pertains to your situation, but it is not in terms of what has happened to people who come out of these places. I promise.
I pride myself in the fact that I have let go of the resentment towards my parents regarding this, (years ago) and I daresay that I have a pretty functional relationship with them, and even so, there is still that little ball of hell-yeah-I'm-pissed that is buried deep inside, along with the parts of you that harbor survival instinct. As such, it is non-negotiable, even if you want it to change it, you can't. I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention the fact that I was towing the CEDU line for about three years after the fact. I wasn't pissed off about it right away, either. In fact, while I was there, I was so under the influence that I used to have nightmares about my parents pulling me from the program. It's like coming out of a coma.
The fact of the matter is, Carlbrook has changed your relationship with your kid forever, and I promise you, it is not the package you paid for, even though things may seem like rainbows and unicorns now.
And why does it do this? Because the beginning of that road starts with a simple betrayal of trust on your part. Most kids get up to these places by escort, trickery, or a sudden realization that this place is VERY different from what they expected. (The first two scenarios, btw, are normally the suggestion of the program scaring the crap out of you, and is rarely an idea the parents came up with on their own. (The program then capitalizes on this, btw, by demonizing the parents.) Maybe parents feel slighted because their kid has betrayed their trust. Well, you know what? That happens with teens, because that is the age where they test their parents. You did it too, but most likley differently, because it was a different generation. Every generation thinks that this is the worst batch of teens that has ever existed, and will be responsible for the downfall of civilization. Well, it hasn't happened yet. Admissions capitalizes on the desperation a parent will feel about their kid. They will scare you even more than you are already scared. And then offer a one-size-fits-all cookie cutter solution to fix everything. Your kid does not get specialized treatment or care, btw. They get what everyone else gets. Nothing more or less.
I recommend asking your kid exactly what went on in those workshops you paid for, because biting down on a towel while yanking both ends as hard as you can, to the point of practically destroying your jaw, while staff are screaming bloody murder in your ears, to the tune of rocky, and doing that three times in a row, isn't my idea of family therapy. What do you think?
Chances are, they probably won't tell you about any of this. Don't you think that is a little weird?
This is the real tragedy of these places. They do more than compromise the psyche of your kid, they compromise the entire family.
I normally don't provide this much of a wake up call to a program parent, for some reason, I was feeling generous today. You may think I am being callous, or even lying, but please trust me when I say that I really don't talk program like this because I want to fuck with you.
I got into college, too, by the way, and there are people on this forum who have stated unequivocally that the academic program at CB is similar to the one at CEDU's, which is most certainly sub par. The reason I got into college is because I was smart enough ahead of time, enough so that I could lose two and a half years of a valid education and still make around a 1200 on the SATs. So, your kid deserves some serious congratulations on that.
You may not believe or agree with anything I say, but I ask you, for the sake of argument, talk to your kid and ask exactly the kinds of exercises and things they did in the workshops and raps. Any response you are going to get out of this, btw, will be weird. They may be evasive, or be vague, saying things like "It taught me to trust my inner child, and take responsibility." instead of actually telling you WHAT they did. Or.. they will tell you exactly the types of things that happened. If you are lucky, the last scenario won't happen. The workshops they put the parents through, if they still do that, are NOTHING like what your kid went through.
I'll leave you with this.. there is a VERY GOOD REASON why these places don't tell you exactly what happens behind the closed doors of a rap or workshop. It's because, in their words, the parents "won't fully understand."
Well, god knows, I hope not!
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and heading down a road to ruin has no chance. I doubt that my son would have finished high school let alone get accepted to a good college.
That is the purest definition of hypothetical ever.
It's not hypothetical if you know what it takes to get accepted.
Psy should get you in touch with a certain parent who used to feel the same way you did. Then she started listening to her kid, who is also a carlbrook grad, and what they went through, and changed her tune. It was amazing, and the biggest 180 I've ever witnessed. I wasn't impressed simply because she started to agree with people, in fact, she is in full capacity of her own opinion. Rather, she started actually realizing that being a parent doesn't always mean you are entirely 100% right 100% of the time.
We listened and still do. The therapists listended.
We never thought we were always right.
Let me clue you in to a little secret. When a kid has a problem, it is not just the kid's problem. It's a family problem, and everyone has had a hand in it.
We are and were acutely aware of this. We also know that we did not have the ability to help. We worked with psycholigists, psychiatrists, teachers, talked to him about what he wanted for himself... nothing took.
These places always place the blame on the kid, ...
... Would you like to know what they start teaching you the minute you walk in the door? That your parents are unfeeling assholes who have done nothing but crush your inner child since day 1, and sent you away because they just want to abandon you.
You're contradicting yourself.
The CEDU clones don't fix your family. They BECOME your family. The family that REALLY understands, and while your son/daughter is under the influence, that is where their heart lay. Once they come out of it, (if they do), there is a good possibility that they will at least harbor SOME level of resentment for you, for the rest of their lives. This is also hypothetical as it pertains to your situation, but it is not in terms of what has happened to people who come out of these places. I promise.
I know many parents and children who have not expereinced this, and that's not hypothetical.
The fact of the matter is, Carlbrook has changed your relationship with your kid forever, and I promise you, it is not the package you paid for, even though things may seem like rainbows and unicorns now.
Talk about a doomsday hypothetical!
I recommend asking your kid exactly what went on in those workshops you paid for, because biting down on a towel while yanking both ends as hard as you can, to the point of practically destroying your jaw, while staff are screaming bloody murder in your ears, to the tune of rocky, and doing that three times in a row, isn't my idea of family therapy. What do you think?
Even though he voluntarily told us about the workshops, we have asked more probing questions all along. He has said it's hard work but he has a great appreciation for the process and looks forward to forthcoming workshops.
My son has gone through every aspect of the program with a critical eye and a healthy dose of reality & skepticism. He takes what he wants and leaves the rest behind. He can spot the true believers and let's them be. And he's not alone. I have met and spoken to a number of current and former students. Some are indeed true believers and seem to have issues that will not be resolved at CB, but nearly all are strong, well-adjusted realists looking forward to bright futures.
I normally don't provide this much of a wake up call to a program parent, for some reason, I was feeling generous today. You may think I am being callous, or even lying, but please trust me when I say that I really don't talk program like this because I want to fuck with you.
I appreciate the time you've taken. Believe me, I know what kind of energy it takes.
I got into college, too, by the way, and there are people on this forum who have stated unequivocally that the academic program at CB is similar to the one at CEDU's, which is most certainly sub par.
Everything I've seen about the academics at CB is nothing less than rigorous. The quality of the academic staff far exceeds that of any school I've seen to date. The variety of subject matter is also amazing considering the size of the school. For example, how many high schools are you aware of that offer Latin?
The reason I got into college is because I was smart enough ahead of time, enough so that I could lose two and a half years of a valid education and still make around a 1200 on the SATs. So, your kid deserves some serious congratulations on that.
I know my kid is smart. Thank God we did something before his talents were all wasted. He too is grateful. He's found his passion again.
You may not believe or agree with anything I say, but I ask you, for the sake of argument, talk to your kid and ask exactly the kinds of exercises and things they did in the workshops and raps. Any response you are going to get out of this, btw, will be weird. They may be evasive, or be vague, saying things like "It taught me to trust my inner child, and take responsibility." instead of actually telling you WHAT they did. Or.. they will tell you exactly the types of things that happened. If you are lucky, the last scenario won't happen. The workshops they put the parents through, if they still do that, are NOTHING like what your kid went through.
We've gotten details, perceptions and lessons. He tells us a lot.
At the parent meeting they also told us that what we experienced is nothing compared to what the kids do -- and what we did was not exactly fun. IMO, the parents who participate have their eyes wide open.
I'll leave you with this.. there is a VERY GOOD REASON why these places don't tell you exactly what happens behind the closed doors of a rap or workshop. It's because, in their words, the parents "won't fully understand."
Of course, you can never truly know if someone is withholding information, but I have never experienced evasiveness from any of the staff.
I believe that CB is the right place for my son and our family. Do we wish it could have been avoided? Of course! It's no fun having him so far away.
Is CB right for everyone? Absolutely not. I've seen a few kids there who probably need something else. There are probably a few who don't need a TBS at all.
I also cannot doubt that over the years there are parents who "warehouse" their children. Truth is, when we were preparing for the first visit I fully expected to see detached parents who had the cash to do so. I even expected some to not even show up. I thought I would run into some "blue bloods" who couldn't get their child accepted into the prestigious academies because of academics, drugs or other issues. The fact is, every child was represented by at least one parent and all were involved and deeply concerned. I will also say that there is one child who I don't believe belongs there -- Frankly, it's the father that needs some serious therapy. I think of that child all the time and hope they find peace.
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try another castle wrote:These places always place the blame on the kid, ...
... Would you like to know what they start teaching you the minute you walk in the door? That your parents are unfeeling assholes who have done nothing but crush your inner child since day 1, and sent you away because they just want to abandon you.
You're contradicting yourself.
Thanks, I should have been more specific. My point is that BOTH of these subtexts exist in the program, and that is indeed contradictory. Like I said, totally schizophrenic.
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try another castle wrote:These places always place the blame on the kid, ...
... Would you like to know what they start teaching you the minute you walk in the door? That your parents are unfeeling assholes who have done nothing but crush your inner child since day 1, and sent you away because they just want to abandon you.
You're contradicting yourself.
Thanks, I should have been more specific. My point is that BOTH of these subtexts exist in the program, and that is indeed contradictory. Like I said, totally schizophrenic.
It's actually consistent with all relevant forms of psychotherapy. Ultimately, regardless of what people say or do, you are solely responsible for your actions and feelings.
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try another castle wrote:These places always place the blame on the kid, ...
... Would you like to know what they start teaching you the minute you walk in the door? That your parents are unfeeling assholes who have done nothing but crush your inner child since day 1, and sent you away because they just want to abandon you.
You're contradicting yourself.
Thanks, I should have been more specific. My point is that BOTH of these subtexts exist in the program, and that is indeed contradictory. Like I said, totally schizophrenic.
It's actually consistent with all relevant forms of psychotherapy. Ultimately, regardless of what people say or do, you are solely responsible for your actions and feelings.
This wasnt about responsibility, though. What is presented is nothing less than demonizing, and painting everyone in a completely myopic and inaccurate light. I can assure you that the exercises that came from cedu have nothing to do with valid therapeutic practices.
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try another castle wrote:These places always place the blame on the kid, ...
... Would you like to know what they start teaching you the minute you walk in the door? That your parents are unfeeling assholes who have done nothing but crush your inner child since day 1, and sent you away because they just want to abandon you.
You're contradicting yourself.
Thanks, I should have been more specific. My point is that BOTH of these subtexts exist in the program, and that is indeed contradictory. Like I said, totally schizophrenic.
It's actually consistent with all relevant forms of psychotherapy. Ultimately, regardless of what people say or do, you are solely responsible for your actions and feelings.
This isn't a parent, this is a cultie spouting jibberish "you are soley responsible for your actions and feelings." Oh, that sounds familiar
There is not a medical doctor in the world, nor a half way thoughtful person that would concur with you on that.
If your kid actually existed you'd be killing him now through his torture at Carlbrook. And after he commited suicide you would tell yourself "he was soley responsible for his actions and feelings," you evil bitch. You would have been respobsible for your kid's feelings When you abuse him he gets a surfeit of negative ones.. If your kid had actually existed and was truly so so so miserable and out of control it was because of the home you made for him. Go die in a hole .
Andacourse, if we're all soley responsible for our feelings and actions what the fuck is the point of any "program," therapy, (not to mention education friendships or parenting at all)
Why do you people talk reason to these peices of shit. they deserve prison or a civil suit, that's it.
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try another castle wrote:These places always place the blame on the kid, ...
... Would you like to know what they start teaching you the minute you walk in the door? That your parents are unfeeling assholes who have done nothing but crush your inner child since day 1, and sent you away because they just want to abandon you.
You're contradicting yourself.
Thanks, I should have been more specific. My point is that BOTH of these subtexts exist in the program, and that is indeed contradictory. Like I said, totally schizophrenic.
It's actually consistent with all relevant forms of psychotherapy. Ultimately, regardless of what people say or do, you are solely responsible for your actions and feelings.
This isn't a parent, this is a cultie spouting jibberish "you are soley responsible for your actions and feelings." Oh, that sounds familiar
There is not a medical doctor in the world, nor a half way thoughtful person that would concur with you on that.
If your kid actually existed you'd be killing him now through his torture at Carlbrook. And after he commited suicide you would tell yourself "he was soley responsible for his actions and feelings," you evil bitch. You would have been respobsible for your kid's feelings When you abuse him he gets a surfeit of negative ones.. If your kid had actually existed and was truly so so so miserable and out of control it was because of the home you made for him. Go die in a hole .
Andacourse, if we're all soley responsible for our feelings and actions what the fuck is the point of any "program," therapy, (not to mention education friendships or parenting at all)
Why do you people talk reason to these peices of shit. they deserve prison or a civil suit, that's it.
To be fair, Karen sounded similar in tone to this when she came to the boards. I often wondered why she stayed, since it seemed to me that a parent would have much better things to do than defend the school she sent her son to, but she did, and she's real, not a program shill. (And it's amazing she stuck around as long as she did, too. Long enough to actually change her mind about some things.)
Then, of course, on the other end of capacity for reason, there was anne (Ottowa), who was apparently certifiably insane, and could come off somewhat articulate one minute, and go into a borderline streak of ultimate weirdness the next. I however, cannot vouch for that myself, since she took her leave a bit before I stumbled in here, but I did snoop around in the archives for a bit quite a while ago.
As such, if I get a parent vibe from someone, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I just dont have the time or energy to play detective when I get an impression a certain way. Especially since Id rather risk having some shill laugh at me (cause I really dont give a fuck) than alienate someone who sounds like they are actually willing to participate in discourse and had their kid in one of these places. Especially if it will head them off from recommending hovels like these to other parents, which, I think, is probably the most important issue when speaking with a program parent.
Hell, man, think about it this way, the program will attempt to do a bit of indoctrination on your parents as well. The term program parent didnt just fall out of the sky, you know. My own Dad tells me that the reason our relationship can be rocky sometimes is because it's entirely my fault and that the only thing he is guilty of is being an enabler. (He watches too much TV) The man is a freakin lawyer and he thinks this way. Even if it were mostly my fault, it's logistically impossible for it to be all of my fault. I don't argue with him about it any more. Pick your battles and all.
(still I classify our relationship as relatively functional. We just have bad spots here and there, cause we're like, people, n stuff.)
There are lots of different kinds of parents out there.
I'm as adept at talking trash as anyone on this forum, and sometimes I've done it with parents, too. (I recall giving Karen a tough time now and then.) But other times I'm willing to extend some energy. I'm not completely useless you know, albeit tragically inconsistent.
Regardless, Ive pretty much said all Ive had to say on this.
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What's more pathetic...
the fake parent posts, or those who take the time responding to them?
scroll down for answer
trick question. you're all equally pathetic :fuckoff: :roflmao:
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Actually, JD, Laura is NEVER there in the mornings, she works from 5:30-9:30 and is sometimes there in the mid-afternoon to help Greg check in packages. My adviser got an email after every single one of my phone calls from Laura with a summary of what I talked about and how I acted. No, they don't cut off your phone calls if you're rude, but it does not go unnoticed and your adviser and thus every other staff member in the school (via staff meetings where they talk about the kids) is informed.
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Actually, JD, Laura is NEVER there in the mornings, she works from 5:30-9:30 and is sometimes there in the mid-afternoon to help Greg check in packages. My adviser got an email after every single one of my phone calls from Laura with a summary of what I talked about and how I acted. No, they don't cut off your phone calls if you're rude, but it does not go unnoticed and your adviser and thus every other staff member in the school (via staff meetings where they talk about the kids) is informed.
I have no reason to doubt what you say except for the fact that the phone room has about 5 phone used simultaneously with the supervisor at a desk in the corner. I can't see how anyone can possible monitor the calls. When we're on the phone I can hear all the other chatter -- sometimes it's even hard for us to hear ourselves.
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I can assure you that the exercises that came from cedu have nothing to do with valid therapeutic practices.
I'm no expert but from what I've seen while researching this is that these types of workshop predate cedu by many years.
While it's definitely not an endorsement by any means, some of the workshop designs cam from EST. There are also elemnts of Gestalt therapy.
If I haven't mentioned it already, I'm not exactly a fan of most modes of psychotherapy, but I can't say that these methods do not work.
I also don't think it's fair to assume that CB is just another CEDU simply because they may have borrowed from CEDU. They seem to have put a lot of effort into taking and using what's effective and are constantly evolving. As I previously mentioned, I have witnessed some changes in the short time I've been involved with the school.
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I also don't think it's fair to assume that CB is just another CEDU simply because they may have borrowed from CEDU.
I do have to address this. (And I could have sworn someone wrote this exact same thing quite a while ago... hmmm..)
CB did not borrow anything from CEDU. CB is a cedu CLONE. The same way that Kids of North Jersey or AARC is a clone of straight inc. It was started by CEDU staff, or CEDU clone staff, and is also run by them. I would say that an example of a facility borrowing something would be something like the hyde schools having a workshop very similar to the imagine propheet or Jackie Danforth starting that new horizons wilderness thingy for girls. CB isn't borrowing. It is the next generation of CEDU schools.
While it's definitely not an endorsement by any means, some of the workshop designs cam from EST. There are also elemnts of Gestalt therapy.
Allow me to elaborate on that.
Influences:
Synanon (specifically group dynamic attributes as dictated by "the game")
LGAT such as EST and Lifespring
Bioenergetic analysis
Primal Scream
Gestalt therapy
Ideology and standards derived from the human potential movement.
Please note that in ALL of these items listed, the best anyone can say of any of them is that they are classified as experimental. Many of these tactics, however, have either been debunked, are considered quackery, are considered downright abusive, or are at the very least considered controversial. (And btw, IMO, gestalt therapy is a bunch of malarkey as well, and also developed in the 70s and 80s, right around the same time as LGAT. It is not to be conflated with gestalt psychology, which has been around for quite a bit longer.)
In addition, most of the people who administer this "therapy" in these places have no credentials or license. A lot of these places, such as CB, and the CEDU schools, do have valid therapists, but they do not take part in everything, and do not facilitate the exercises that dictate the program. They are at best, on the periphery.
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This isn't a parent,
Whatever you say. I sure wish it wasn't necessary to be a CB parent.
this is a cultie spouting jibberish
Tell that to the staff to whom I've been a thorn in the side of.
"you are soley responsible for your actions and feelings." Oh, that sounds familiar
It should. It's a basic mantra of the psych field.
There is not a medical doctor in the world, nor a half way thoughtful person that would concur with you on that.
First of all, they're not my words and I believe it's too simplistic; regardless, you're clearly ignorant as to what psychotherapy is.
If your kid actually existed you'd be killing him now through his torture at Carlbrook. And after he commited suicide you would tell yourself "he was soley responsible for his actions and feelings," you evil bitch. You would have been respobsible for your kid's feelings When you abuse him he gets a surfeit of negative ones.. If your kid had actually existed and was truly so so so miserable and out of control it was because of the home you made for him. Go die in a hole .
You sound deeply disturbed. Perhaps you should seek professional help.
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You sound deeply disturbed. Perhaps you should seek professional help.
You sound like a child killer. Perhhaps you should be shot in the head.
It should. It's a basic mantra of the psych field.
That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.
There's no such thing as a basic "mantra" in science. Mantras are in cults and religions, a *cult* being where you got that mantra.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantra)
If you knew anything about science, instead of abuction and torture and cruelty, you'd see that. Please site your source that "you are soley responsible for your feelings and actions" is a basic "psychiatric mantra." I'd love to hear where you get that. Academicaly I am studying psych so I know your source is your cult, not science or research.
Basic scientific fact denotes the opposite.
Dont beleive me? google the term. see what comes up. Call your local hospital ask to speak the chief of psychiatric dept and ask him if that's a basic "mantra" OR if its true. See what he says.
If we were all soley responsible for our feelings and actions their wouldnt BE a field of psychiatry. Psychiary, like all healing arts, is BASED IN THE FACT that a person, their *consciousness,* doesnt have don't have "control" over thier bodies, the mind is the body as well. We cant choose to be immortal. We cant and don't simply choose to be functional or happy, empathic, intelligent or not hallucinate--hence the necessity for the field of psychiarty
Anyone want to tell me which contradictory Synanon division that idiotic "mantra" comes from, contradictory in that if we're all so soley repsonsible for our feelings and actions then there's no need for a program because we are so supposedly "out of control." I hear that a lot around here, particularly from the WWASPites. But which Synanon division started it?
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CB did not borrow anything from CEDU. CB is a cedu CLONE.
I just watched part the first 5 parts of Liam's CEDU documentary to get a better idea of CEDU. To say that CEDU was an aweful place is an understatement.
I have to say though that other than some clear similarities in varoious programs, there is no comparison to CB.
As I've mentioned, there are some things at CB that I don't like, but if it truly was anything like CEDU not only would I have yanked my son long ago, I never would have sent him there.
IMO, CB is nowhere near being a CEDU clone. If you honestly want to make and propagate that assessment, you must visit the school, participate in the parent meetings and see the reality. While you too will not see it as being perfect, if you're honest, you will cease to see it as just another CEDU.
It was a difficult decision. I looked at many places and it was frustrating. Every time I thought we had found a good school I'd find horror stories. I think made the right choice.
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You sound deeply disturbed. Perhaps you should seek professional help.
You sound like a child killer. Perhhaps you should be shot in the head.
Thank you for proving my point.
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Whoopsie! Looks like this "parent" forgot which name he was using.
Thank you for playing, please try again!
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You sound deeply disturbed. Perhaps you should seek professional help.
You sound like a child killer. Perhhaps you should be shot in the head.
Thank you for proving my point.
lol. Then no answer about where you got the information that "you are solely responsible for your thoughts and actions" is "a basic psychiatric mantra" ?
We know it wasn't any legitimate text .
As you said, you got it from "staff at Carlbrook."
The utterly incompetent, unprofessional, uneducated, youth torturing staff at Synanon cult-division, Carlbrook. Of whom you are a member, no doubt.
Any survivors know where that "mantra" derived? Liam? Castle? Dish? Ursus? ..uh, Santa?
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You sound deeply disturbed. Perhaps you should seek professional help.
You sound like a child killer. Perhhaps you should be shot in the head.
Thank you for proving my point.
Yup, you used your wrong screen name "Carl brook parent." You are an inadequate to the charge of being a human being, staff at an institution, cult disciple, or even a troll
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you must visit the school, participate in the parent meetings and see the reality.
The only way to see the reality is to be a student, or at least, an alumn from a sister school. (points to self.) I personally knew Tim Brace, btw. He was the headmaster at RMA while I was there.
There are at least two (if memory serves) CB alum currently posting on this forum that paint an almost identical picture to what happens at CEDU in terms of propheets, raps and workshops. Softer, maybe, in terms of restrictions, full-times, work details (I wouldnt know) but still tough love, and still uber culty.
It still uses attack therapy.
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lol. Then no answer about where you got the information that "you are solely responsible for your thoughts and actions" is "a basic psychiatric mantra" ?...
... Any survivors know where that "mantra" derived? Liam? Castle? Dish? Ursus? ..uh, Santa?
My guess would be self-determination theory, since that deals with issues such as choices and free will, but it does not state or postulate, as far as I know, that every thought and action is self-determined and conscious. Rather, it studies the dynamics of which influences what.
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lol. Then no answer about where you got the information that "you are solely responsible for your thoughts and actions" is "a basic psychiatric mantra" ?...
... Any survivors know where that "mantra" derived? Liam? Castle? Dish? Ursus? ..uh, Santa?
My guess would be self-determination theory, since that deals with issues such as choices and free will, but it does not state or postulate, as far as I know, that every thought and action is self-determined and conscious. Rather, it studies the dynamics of which influences what.
You are right. It doesnt. And it and is hardly a "basic psychiatric mantra," Its a *theory* that, IN FACT, asserts the OPPOSITE of every person being "solely responsible for their thoughts, feelings and actions"
http://www.psych.rochester.edu/SDT/theory.html (http://www.psych.rochester.edu/SDT/theory.html)
"This natural human tendency[for mastery of their enviroment] does not operate automatically, and requires ongoing nutriments and supports from the social environment in order to function effectively. That is, the social context can either support or thwart the natural tendencies toward active engagement and psychological growth. Thus, it is the dialectic between the active organism and the social context that is the basis for SDT's predictions about behavior, experience, and development.
"but to the extent that [basic needs] are thwarted, people will show evidence of ill-being and non-optimal functioning. The darker sides of human behavior and experience are understood in terms of basic needs having been thwarted"
I was actually asking if the mantra "you are solely responsible for your thoughts, feelings and actions" or some variation was around at cedu. It has the ring of Synanon and est bullshit and I’ve heard variations of it from the cult disciples on fornits for years. Where did this BS originate? In how many Synanon divisions does it present?
Its obviously a useful bit of manipulation by Carlbrook/CEDU to make parents of Carlbrook/CEDU beleive that crap, because when those vitims commit suicide or otherwise suffer with mental issues and functional impariments post-cedu their culticly addled idiot parents can think,"well, katie WAS solely responsible for her feelings and actions, so obviously Carlbrook Cedu isn't responsible for her blowing her brains out."
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Whoopsie! Looks like this "parent" forgot which name he was using.
Thank you for playing, please try again!
No moron, this message board system sucks.
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you must visit the school, participate in the parent meetings and see the reality.
The only way to see the reality is to be a student, or at least, an alumn from a sister school. (points to self.) I personally knew Tim Brace, btw. He was the headmaster at RMA while I was there.
There are at least two (if memory serves) CB alum currently posting on this forum that paint an almost identical picture to what happens at CEDU in terms of propheets, raps and workshops. Softer, maybe, in terms of restrictions, full-times, work details (I wouldnt know) but still tough love, and still uber culty.
It still uses attack therapy.
There are also CB alum who have posted their good experiences, and I believe those are more current.
Other than "workshops", I've never heard those other terms used at CB.
Crews are nowhere near what was described in the CEDU video. I know of water bottle distribution to the classrooms and dishwashing.
But your copping out by saying the only valid way to see reality is to be a student. Come on, you sound smarter than that.
If you were serious about being on a mission to shut the place down, you'd gather some real evidence to support your belief that it's like CEDU. There are plenty of alumni you can contact (they have a Yahoo group), former staff and teachers.
There's nothing I can say to change your mind. I'm objective and have approached everything about the place with a skeptical eye. If a parent asked my advice I'd tell them our experience and caution them to look closely and decide based on their particular situation.
Like I said, it's not perfect, but it sure isn't CEDU.
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You are right. It doesnt. And it and is hardly a "basic psychiatric mantra," Its a *theory* that, IN FACT, asserts the OPPOSITE of every person being "solely responsible for their thoughts, feelings and actions"
Yes, it's a theory, as is all of psychology.
I guess you haven't heard of the humanists in your alleged studies.
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You are right. It doesnt. And it and is hardly a "basic psychiatric mantra," Its a *theory* that, IN FACT, asserts the OPPOSITE of every person being "solely responsible for their thoughts, feelings and actions"
Yes, it's a theory, as is all of psychology.
I guess you haven't heard of the humanists in your alleged studies.
Whoopsie! Looks like this "parent" forgot which name he was using.
Thank you for playing, please try again!
No moron, this message board system sucks.
Hi "program parent" with multiple screen names and personalities. You’re getting your various writing styles confused again, try to make each charcter consistent.
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Other than "workshops", I've never heard those other terms used at CB.
Right, they're just called workshops at CB, but they are the same as the propheets. (Our last two were also called workshops.) I believe a few of them have been removed/merged as well. Monarch has another name for them, as does Benchmark. (I think one of them is insights and the other is avatars)
Here:
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=20599&p=259977&hilit=integritas#p259977 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=20599&p=259977&hilit=integritas#p259977)
It lines it all out, in case there is any doubt that I don't know what Im talking about regarding what is involved in CB workshops and how it compares to cedu's. Every workshop this student lists owes its existence to the same CEDU workshops. We just had different names for them. Keep in mind that the poster here is maintaining that their experience was overall positive, in case I am accused of being slanted. Rather, I want to show this post as a way of stating, CLEARLY, that the workshops CB uses are very close to the ones experienced at CEDU.
It's "funny" that this person says they don't remember much about animus. Its cedu counterpart is the one that I almost have no memory of, either. Also funny that what we *do* remember were the same parts.
Also of note is psy's assessment a few posts above that, based on his research, (which was extensive, he truly has done a lot of work on the subject of cedu clones) he finds CB to be "CEDU lite", which I agree with. My point is, shit lite is still shit, and I sure as fuck dont want to eat it.
But your[sic] copping out by saying the only valid way to see reality is to be a student. Come on, you sound smarter than that.
Not see reality, see what really happens there. Even I can't claim to know *exactly* what happens at CB, but I *do* know, based on testimony of people who were there, (whether their testimony is favorable or not, see above) that there is little deviation in terms of their "therapy" from CEDU, and I emphatically feel that CEDUs "therapy" practices accomplish nothing. They are detrimental to the psyche. (Also good thread of note: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26020 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26020) )
copping out, huh. How is it a cop out? I don't really see how I am giving up on anything. Interesting choice of words. How would it even be *feasible* for anyone to comprehensively know and understand the CB experience other than having attended?
If you were serious about being on a mission to shut the place down,
I'm not. This is a systemic issue. Shutting down this or that school wont solve the overall problem. However, I do have interest in conversing with parents and alum of cedu clones.
you'd gather some real evidence to support your belief that it's like CEDU.
I have. See above. Example, obviously. I can't possibly go through every single thread Ive read on the subject. Someone else posted about daily schedule, as well as raps (I vaguely recall them calling them request groups). And like I said before, psy is really the person to talk to when it comes to research and evidence.
There's nothing I can say to change your mind. I'm objective and have approached everything about the place with a skeptical eye.
That is good. Because I'm not interested in having my mind changed. However, I am interested, as I said before in talking with parents and alum, which I do.
As for objectivity. No. How can any parent worth their salt be objective about the welfare of their own kid? I wouldnt want parents like that.
If a parent asked my advice I'd tell them our experience and caution them to look closely and decide based on their particular situation.
Well, that sure as fuck is better than an endorsement or actively recruiting.
What exactly would you caution someone about regarding sending their kid to CB?
Hi "program parent" with multiple screen names and personalities. You’re getting your various writing styles confused again, try to make each charcter consistent.
I'm pretty sure they are a program parent, k? If you've read any of my posts, you would see that I am violently inconsistent in my voice. Being articulate one day, smarmy and sarcastic another, downright vulgar and silly five minutes from now. It's called being multi-faceted, and most people are this way.
Fuck, man, I mean, just read some ottowa posts. Holy mother of pearl, talk about a split personality.
Program shills, however, SUCK at character development.
And then, of course, you have people like thewho, who is a shill and a program parent. But the advertising trolls always seem to stand out differently. When you try to engage them, they never seem to get beyond their initial testimony, and are redundant.
I could be wrong, though.
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JD is karen reincarnated! :jawdrop:
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JD is karen reincarnated! :jawdrop:
that's what I think, too, (except that karen's not dead.. hehe) which is why I believe that they are truly a parent and not a shill.
I wonder how karen is doing, anyway. psy, do you keep in touch with her?
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JD is karen reincarnated! :jawdrop:
that's what I think, too, (except that karen's not dead.. hehe) which is why I believe that they are truly a parent and not a shill.
I wonder how karen is doing, anyway. psy, do you keep in touch with her?
I would need some serious surgery to be a Karen!
I don't know who or what Karen is. I'm not a shill, employee, recruiter, etc.
I feel badly for anyone who had to endure CEDU and I understand your skepticism regarding CB.
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I don't know who or what Karen is. I'm not a shill, employee, recruiter, etc.
protest much? obviously karen is not a "what", this overcompensation of a lie makes it clear that you know perfectly well who karen in. lemme see, "who" is it around here that likes to jerk around survivors for kicks...hmm... i golly jee wonder? :jerry:
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JD is karen reincarnated! :jawdrop:
that's what I think, too, (except that karen's not dead.. hehe) which is why I believe that they are truly a parent and not a shill.
I wonder how karen is doing, anyway. psy, do you keep in touch with her?
I would need some serious surgery to be a Karen!
I don't know who or what Karen is. I'm not a shill, employee, recruiter, etc.
I feel badly for anyone who had to endure CEDU and I understand your skepticism regarding CB.
k. but I am curious about what you said earlier. what would you caution parents about? If I were to speak of a place that worked well for my own kid, but unsure for another, I would *(strongly) encourage* parents to look closely to see if it is a good fit. Why caution?
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k. but I am curious about what you said earlier. what would you caution parents about? If I were to speak of a place that worked well for my own kid, but unsure for another, I would *(strongly) encourage* parents to look closely to see if it is a good fit. Why caution?
There are aspects of the program that are probably not the best for some. I mentioned one student who probably shouldn't be there and it seemed to me that the only reason they were was because the dad is an asshole.
I saw one boy at SUWS who definitely needed something else. I think the doctors failed him and his poor parents were at their wits end.
The point is, there is no one-size-fits-all.
But you want specifics so I'll try to accomodate you.
The one thing that comes to mind is if the child is not strong-willed, CB is not a good choice. If the child is hyper-impressionable and susceptible to becoming a brain-washed true believer, CB is an definitely not a good choice.
I'd also be very cautious about any child who is particularly sensitive.
I would generally caution parents about any decision regarding a TBS, wilderness or any other program. Every child is different.
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The point is, there is no one-size-fits-all.
exactly. And a school who believes that one size *does* fit all should be held suspect. I have yet to know of any program admissions staff, including Carlbrook's, who have said "Im afraid that this place might not be right for your kid." If you know of any instance of this happening with CB, please fill me in on the details.
"schools" with 100% acceptance rates for admission kinda freak me out.
The one thing that comes to mind is if the child is not strong-willed, CB is not a good choice. If the child is hyper-impressionable and susceptible to becoming a brain-washed true believer, CB is an definitely not a good choice.
I'd also be very cautious about any child who is particularly sensitive.
This speaks volumes. I'm not sure I would feel too comfortable sending my kid to a place if someone said "If you think they may be easily brainwashed, don't send them here."
uh, even if my kid may not be that (not exactly sure how to determine that anyway), I wouldn't be too keen on sending them to a place where there is the potential for brainwashing.
So actually, yes, totally say that if any parent asks for advice about CB.
I would generally caution parents about any decision regarding a TBS, wilderness or any other program. Every child is different.
Yes, and all programs are frighteningly similar.
Look, Ill be the first to admit that CB is no WWASPS or Straight in terms of severity, (thank god) but it's cut from the same cloth. (Not only that, it traces its roots directly back to synanon.)The underpinnings of the TBS industry are inherently flawed, and every facility in the industry bases itself off of those beliefs. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in the industry. They'd be something else. (I was in a "something else" before CEDU, so I can compare.) One of the things that happens on this forum is program ID. If a new place pops up, people will ask, "so is it a program or not"?
CB is a program.
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Look, Ill be the first to admit that CB is no WWASPS or Straight in terms of severity, (
.
Don't be so sure.
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Look, Ill be the first to admit that CB is no WWASPS or Straight in terms of severity, (
.
Don't be so sure.
I never am. But I trust psy's assessment that a good way to describe CB would be "CEDU-lite", as he has had extensive conversations, online and over the phone, with CB parents and survivors. My point is that even if there are differences, they are programs, and share the industry philosophy.
program bad. hulk smash.
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Look, Ill be the first to admit that CB is no WWASPS or Straight in terms of severity, (
.
Don't be so sure.
I never am. But I trust psy's assessment that a good way to describe CB would be "CEDU-lite", as he has had extensive conversations, online and over the phone, with CB parents and survivors. My point is that even if there are differences, they are programs, and share the industry philosophy.
program bad. hulk smash.
Aren't they all softer gentler versions of another program? dont buy and sell the party line. Some gulags ive been to are as bad as they come but simply dont have enough survviors coming foward to establish that, or have any online precense whatsoever.
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Aren't they all softer gentler versions of another program?
Actually, I think the operative word here is subtler... as in.. harder to bust. "Oh, look. This place doesnt seem all that bad. Not even close to tranquility bay."
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Yeah, but Laura walks around and listens in on phone calls.
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Aren't they all softer gentler versions of another program? dont buy and sell the party line. Some gulags ive been to are as bad as they come but simply dont have enough survviors coming foward to establish that, or have any online precense whatsoever.
This is especially a problem with the smaller places, although there are many other factors in play (for example, in some programs kids are told that it is illegal to talk about their experiences or practices of the program due to "confidentiality"... or threats of lawsuits... so many factors can play a part in this). But yes. From talking to people from CB, it does seem that CB is more or less "cedu-lite", or a prep-school version of CEDU. It's fancy on the outside but it has the same rotten core.
The propheets / workshops, for example, just have latin names now, for example.
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JD is karen reincarnated! :jawdrop:
I wonder how karen is doing, anyway. psy, do you keep in touch with her?
Karen is doing fine, I believe, but I haven't talked to her in depth for a while. She wished me a happy birthday the other day and congratulated me for my accomplishments over the past year, but that's about it.
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An anonymous tipster sent me the Carlbrook Parent Handbook. See thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27206&start=0 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27206&start=0)
Or download directly here:
http://www.fornits.com/cb/carlbrook-parent-handbook.pdf (http://www.fornits.com/cb/carlbrook-parent-handbook.pdf)
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Wow. this is a big handbook. Notes as I read (sort of skimming it here)
Section 2.1:
Students will respect and honor the confidentiality of other students, families and
faculty.
And faculty? So this means the kids can't talk about things the staff do? Red flag there.
Students will not discuss workshop experiences or workshop tools with other students
who have not been through the workshop.
Which implies students go into these LGAT workshops without informed consent. This is the main problem I have with the workshops. If people knew exactly what they were getting into, I would have no problem. The thing is that the workshops wouldnt' be nearly as "effective" in changing people without their knowledge or consent if people knew what to expect. There is also the issue of hypnosis and closed-eye guided imagery being reportedly used. Powerful tools that should only really be in the hands of professional psychologists (if anybody)...
Students will refrain from sexual or intimate activities with others.
This is fairly flexible. I can see "initmate" as having quite a wide interpretation. At teh CEDU based program I was in "intimacy" could be a close friendship.
Section 2.3:
Students will abide by the School’s guidelines regarding confidential information
involving other students, families and faculty.
They state it twice!
Section 2.5:
• All students are expected to actively participate in and benefit from group sessions.
Group sessions? is that kind of like group therapy, but not calling it that to get around licensing requirements?
• Students should make group requests regularly demonstrating an interest in the lives
and work of their fellow students as well as a means of taking responsibility for the
community as a whole.
This deserves a translation. Group requests were called Rap requests at Benchamrk, and I imagine the same at CEDU. You were expected to write what you wanted to talk about (somebody's problem, confront somebody, etc), and staff would select your requests from the stack of lists.
Student communication should be supportive, positive and reflect constructive
criticism. Caustic, sarcastic, insulting, demeaning, threatening, abusive comments or
behavior are not acceptable methods of expression.
That may be true, but i'm sure "brutal honesty" is permitted, which is often indistinguishable from the above to the target.
Absolute confidentiality for kids (they can't talk about stuff), but staff can tell the parents anything about what happens in group... nice policy. I'm sure it makes the kids real open knowing everything they say can be reported back to their parents...
Advisors may share what occurred in group with their colleagues, as well as with
parents, as deemed necessary and appropriate.
Section 2.9:
Movies and music that are not compatible with the general standards of the School (i.e.
those that are excessively discordant due to content that is overtly sexual, violent, drug-
oriented, anarchist, depressive, etc.) are considered unacceptable forms of
entertainment.
• The School will provide all media (including movies, music, and reference and utility
media), and only such media provided by the School may be possessed or used on school property.
...
Due to the unpredictability of content played, radio is an unacceptable form of media.
...
• All music that is to be played for a Last Light must be approved by the student’s
Advisor prior to asking permission from the Floor Coordinator.
Political content, sad music... all off limits. I see. Only group approved information.
Section 2.19
• Students will be allowed to call their parents at predetermined times with faculty
supervision and support.
No surprise there.
Section 2.21
• Students may not be exposed to any of the elements that influenced his/her
enrollment to Carlbrook School (clothing, music, jewelry, make-up, smoking,
etc.).
I see. That's something to reflect on. So basically anything having to do with an identity prior to carlbrook is "bad". And yet thy simultaneously say they're tryin to teach kids to be independent thinking and so forth.
more from 2.21:
• Students may not have contact with old friends from home at any point during
the visit (no phone calls, letters from old girlfriends/ boyfriends, pictures, etc.).
• Students may not call/contact any current or former Carlbrook students during
the visit.
• Parents have the right to end the visit at any point if they feel their student is
being disrespectful or dishonest.
• Students must be with a family member at all times except for short breaks.
• Students must stay on campus (see first and second on-campus visit standards
for specifics).
• No clothing, food or gifts (personal hygiene products, music/ movies, etc.) may
be given to students during the visit. Clothing requests must be discussed with
the student’s Advisor, and if approved should be mailed directly to the School.
Items given to students during the visit will be sent home.
• The use of personal electronic devices is prohibited during visits (“personal
electronic devices” from here on refers to mobile phones, all forms of music
players, handheld and stationary gaming systems and any new technology not
mentioned that involves music, movies, games, photos etc.).
• Students must have an adult family member present when listening to music or
watching a movie.
And those are the rules for *on campus* visits.
2.21e:
First visit only: Students will go through their room or personal space with their
parent(s) before they go to bed the first night. They must discard items that
represent their old lifestyle. They must choose one item that is the most difficult
to discard and send it directly to the School (labeled with their name and their
Advisor’s name) to the attention of Sandi Hughes in the Advising Department.
also
• Students will conduct themselves in a manner that is representative of their
Truth at all times.
(italics in original)
Of course this only makes sense once someobody goes through Truth. Castle can explain more about this.
I'll go through more in a bit. Very interesting reading.
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8.1c Bans
The student may be asked not to communicate verbally or non-verbally with
specific students (e.g. the student is on bans with these individuals). Unlike the loss
of privileges and extra crews, the purpose of bans is NOT to punish the student.
Rather, bans are used to encourage the student to spend time with individuals who
are more likely to challenge self-defeating thoughts and actions and reinforce
positive behaviors. In addition to violations of Carlbrook Standards, bans are also
used in certain circumstances when the Advisors feel that a student is spending
excessive time with peers who reinforce their negative thinking, or excessive time
with students of the opposite sex.
There it is... Check out section 8 for their "consequences".
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Students will conduct themselves in a manner that is representative of their
Truth at all times.
Oh, that's rich.
How is this measurable?
My "truth" changes day to day. Today, my truth consists of the fact that "My friend BIll left half of his bottle of tequila over at my house, which means.. woo hoo, party before 4pm."
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Now this is shocking that they put it in writing
8.1f Re-audit of Wilderness Experience
Severe infractions of Carlbrook Standards, particularly those that endanger the
safety of the student or the School, will not be tolerated. The following behaviors
will result in either a required re-audit of a wilderness experience or expulsion:
• Injury to self or threat of injury to self
• Injury to others or threat of injury to other
• Leaving the Carlbrook campus without permission
• Refusal to participate in the Carlbrook program
• Refusal to adhere to Carlbrook Standards
• Refusal of consequences for violations of Carlbrook Standards
Once the decision for wilderness re-audit has been made by the Board of Regents,
students MUST be transported to a suitable facility by a licensed adolescent escort
service or picked up by the parents immediately. The Dean of Advising will contact
the student’s educational consultant, and they will work together to help parents
locate a suitable wilderness program for the student. Parents are responsible for all
Carlbrook tuition during the time which the student is re-auditing a wilderness
program. If the Board of Regents decides that Carlbrook is not the appropriate
place for the student, parents will be notified immediately, and we will assist the
educational consultant in finding another program which better suits the student’s
needs.
So great. You take a suicidal kid and send him/her to wilderness. What could possibly go wrong (http://http://www.isaccorp.org/alldredge/alldredge-academy.06.07.01.html) (and there are many more instances of that happening). PS: Alldredge opened the next day under a new name (though they retained the old on their marketing).
This is where the fluffy program shows it's true colors. Either you conform to the group, or you go to wilderness re-education (not a pleasant experience). Hovering over kid's heads at all times is this threat.
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At the very least, you must admit that the mere existence and availability of the handbook is a good thing.
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At the very least, you must admit that the mere existence and availability of the handbook is a good thing.
Well. The exist for all programs that I've seen. The difficulty is getting one out into the public sphere and taking a look. It's usually very difficult to get a look at the parent handbook prior to enrollement (trust us... we try).
A friend of mine (parent) calls the marketing folk for various programs up all the time to see what he/she can get. The most they usually ever give out is an enrollment contract.
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At the very least, you must admit that the mere existence and availability of the handbook is a good thing.
Frankly, I was very depressed after skimming it over. It does seem very much like the design of the program is to change kids without their full knowledge and consent. While the changes usually wear off after they leave the controlled enviornment (and have no threat of being sent back), the effects often last a lifetime.
If you create an enclosed system where you control all the communication, who people can talk to, etc etc, you control the commerce of ideas, and through that, what and how people can think (they almost hint at this as a good thing in their description of bans). Who gets to define "negative"? There goes your freedom... The sanctity of free thought is something that nobody should be able to take away at any age for any reason.
It's just very sad to look at, is all, because I've felt the effects of thought reform first hand. I'm probably going to head to bed now and take a further look at it in the morning.
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Back from a 6 day camping trip at IKEA.
I have this to come back to ?
I don't know what's worse.
A 1989 CEDU parent singing the praises
or
A 2009 CB parent singing the praises
seems to me history will, as it has for eons, repeat itself ad infinitum.
PSY - Excellent point regarding 'upper school' lgat workshop 'informed consent' .
It should be mandatory.
for fuck's sake - let's start at the beginning.
your first rap, seeing that it is "therapy", should require uncoerced, fully informed, written patient consent. Regulated by the appropriate Medical board.
Who provides, monitors and manages this oversight?
Apparently this responsibility falls not on the owners, board members, presidents, directors, headmasters, family heads, educational consultants or parents.
Apparently the duty of monitoring the complete lack of oversight falls on the fornitia.
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Wow. this is a big handbook. Notes as I read (sort of skimming it here)
Section 2.1:
Students will respect and honor the confidentiality of other students, families and
faculty.
And faculty? So this means the kids can't talk about things the staff do? Red flag there.
Students will not discuss workshop experiences or workshop tools with other students
who have not been through the workshop.
Which implies students go into these LGAT workshops without informed consent. This is the main problem I have with the workshops. If people knew exactly what they were getting into, I would have no problem. The thing is that the workshops wouldnt' be nearly as "effective" in changing people without their knowledge or consent if people knew what to expect. There is also the issue of hypnosis and closed-eye guided imagery being reportedly used. Powerful tools that should only really be in the hands of professional psychologists (if anybody)...
Students will refrain from sexual or intimate activities with others.
This is fairly flexible. I can see "initmate" as having quite a wide interpretation. At teh CEDU based program I was in "intimacy" could be a close friendship.
Section 2.3:
Students will abide by the School’s guidelines regarding confidential information
involving other students, families and faculty.
They state it twice!
Section 2.5:
• All students are expected to actively participate in and benefit from group sessions.
Group sessions? is that kind of like group therapy, but not calling it that to get around licensing requirements?
• Students should make group requests regularly demonstrating an interest in the lives
and work of their fellow students as well as a means of taking responsibility for the
community as a whole.
This deserves a translation. Group requests were called Rap requests at Benchamrk, and I imagine the same at CEDU. You were expected to write what you wanted to talk about (somebody's problem, confront somebody, etc), and staff would select your requests from the stack of lists.
Student communication should be supportive, positive and reflect constructive
criticism. Caustic, sarcastic, insulting, demeaning, threatening, abusive comments or
behavior are not acceptable methods of expression.
That may be true, but i'm sure "brutal honesty" is permitted, which is often indistinguishable from the above to the target.
Absolute confidentiality for kids (they can't talk about stuff), but staff can tell the parents anything about what happens in group... nice policy. I'm sure it makes the kids real open knowing everything they say can be reported back to their parents...
Advisors may share what occurred in group with their colleagues, as well as with
parents, as deemed necessary and appropriate.
Section 2.9:
Movies and music that are not compatible with the general standards of the School (i.e.
those that are excessively discordant due to content that is overtly sexual, violent, drug-
oriented, anarchist, depressive, etc.) are considered unacceptable forms of
entertainment.
• The School will provide all media (including movies, music, and reference and utility
media), and only such media provided by the School may be possessed or used on school property.
...
Due to the unpredictability of content played, radio is an unacceptable form of media.
...
• All music that is to be played for a Last Light must be approved by the student’s
Advisor prior to asking permission from the Floor Coordinator.
Political content, sad music... all off limits. I see. Only group approved information.
Section 2.19
• Students will be allowed to call their parents at predetermined times with faculty
supervision and support.
No surprise there.
Section 2.21
• Students may not be exposed to any of the elements that influenced his/her
enrollment to Carlbrook School (clothing, music, jewelry, make-up, smoking,
etc.).
I see. That's something to reflect on. So basically anything having to do with an identity prior to carlbrook is "bad". And yet thy simultaneously say they're tryin to teach kids to be independent thinking and so forth.
more from 2.21:
• Students may not have contact with old friends from home at any point during
the visit (no phone calls, letters from old girlfriends/ boyfriends, pictures, etc.).
• Students may not call/contact any current or former Carlbrook students during
the visit.
• Parents have the right to end the visit at any point if they feel their student is
being disrespectful or dishonest.
• Students must be with a family member at all times except for short breaks.
• Students must stay on campus (see first and second on-campus visit standards
for specifics).
• No clothing, food or gifts (personal hygiene products, music/ movies, etc.) may
be given to students during the visit. Clothing requests must be discussed with
the student’s Advisor, and if approved should be mailed directly to the School.
Items given to students during the visit will be sent home.
• The use of personal electronic devices is prohibited during visits (“personal
electronic devices” from here on refers to mobile phones, all forms of music
players, handheld and stationary gaming systems and any new technology not
mentioned that involves music, movies, games, photos etc.).
• Students must have an adult family member present when listening to music or
watching a movie.
And those are the rules for *on campus* visits.
2.21e:
First visit only: Students will go through their room or personal space with their
parent(s) before they go to bed the first night. They must discard items that
represent their old lifestyle. They must choose one item that is the most difficult
to discard and send it directly to the School (labeled with their name and their
Advisor’s name) to the attention of Sandi Hughes in the Advising Department.
also
• Students will conduct themselves in a manner that is representative of their
Truth at all times.
(italics in original)
Of course this only makes sense once someobody goes through Truth. Castle can explain more about this.
I'll go through more in a bit. Very interesting reading.
So are people kept against their will at this place? Whats the deal?
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So are people kept against their will at this place? Whats the deal?
A CB survivor in another thread spoke to this, but I can't remember which thread it is. It sounded identical to the line they gave us at CEDU, and I believe I even commented on it in that thread.
A student was held hostage through intimidation and mind-fucking. Do you want to leave? Fine, go ahead. There are no walls here. There are no gates or fences. Of course, where will you go? You're out in the middle of nowhere. You might get raped by a trucker. (as one kid actually did, and the staff milked that event for all it was worth, often in the presence of the victim)
If someone did split, and they weren't 18, they'd send the van out after you to pick you up. Blownaway (who has his splitting story in the CEDU section of this site) talks about his ordeal when he split, trying to keep to the backwoods so he wouldn't be apprehended by staff. He caught the search vans going by several times looking for him.
If you were lucky enough to make it into town (Bonners Ferry), normally the sheriff would snag you and bring you back to campus.
...that is, until he was allowed to sit in on a rap. After that experience, he said he would never send a kid back there again, and as far as I know, he never did. (Blownaway became friends with him, I believe.)
Now, I am fairly certain that CEDU was pretty much required to do this, since they were temporary custodians for all students, (even though they weren't legal guardians) and if the student was underage, they were therefore responsible, since if we got lost, they would get an earful of "wtf did you do with my kid" from the parents. So, I don't exactly take issue with the fact that they wanted to come looking for you. However, the circumstances regarding why students left, and the taunting that often preceded (or tried to dissuade) a splitting was more than just a little bit toxic. There was also mixed motivation in finding said child, since fear of a liability lawsuit held just as much weight as concern for the kid's welfare. (of course, their welfare wasnt exactly considered once they got back)
And then of course, the consequences weren't exactly much better, and obviously was also used as a deterrent.
When kids were brought back they were subjected to any number of different kinds of restrictions. Normally splitting meant either getting on a full-time or going down to survival school in southern Idaho, which was a major suckfest. By the time you got back from survival, you were happy to be at RMA, since at least there, they had fun things like heat and food and showers. blownaway spoke about how thrilled he was to be back from survival, simply because he was starving. I witnessed several kids come back from there. All of them had lost a considerable amount of weight, many were covered with infected insect bites (unless it was in the winter), and most of them had parasites. (giardia) I actually had an expedition down in that same area, and drinking that water without boiling it first will get you hellishly sick. If you were dehydrated and couldn't wait to build a fire to boil it (building fires in survival, btw, required using a bow drill) you'd get the parasite. Our expedition was lucky because we were allowed iodine tablets, but on survival, it all has to be boiled.
So.. there was nothing that was physically keeping us on the grounds. However, if we were underage, and we left... that was when shit went down.
Most of us felt a large sense of futility in even trying, since the location was so remote. The walk to town was maybe a one to two hour trek if you kept to the roads, which normally meant that you would eventually get picked up. A couple of guys in my peer group got as far as the Canadian border by hitching a ride in a boxcar, which is pretty fucking dangerous, especially if you value your legs.
CEDU running springs was even worse. You could see the city lights from campus, but the trek down the deceptively hikeable hill was actually quite treacherous. It kind of reminds me of alcatraz. You could see SF and it seemed sooo easy to cross... until you got in that freezing motherfucking cold water, and had to deal with currents that were a hell of a lot stronger than they looked.
An upper school student who was of age split while I was in Voyageurs, and a friend in his peer group walked him out. They had a last light about it, (i.e. the daily before bedtime thingy) and his friend was saying how he was just sick of it and decided to go. He was allowed to, of course, because he was an adult, so that was his last day there, basically. At that time (I dont know if it changed) CEDU was not like WWASPS in terms of lying to kids telling them that their parents had gotten extended custody, or getting the parents to not take their kid back, so he/she had nowhere to go after splitting. If you were 18 or older, you could physically leave the campus without fear that they would come after you. As far as I know, anyway.
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...that is, until he was allowed to sit in on a rap. After that experience, he said he would never send a kid back there again, and as far as I know, he never did. (Blownaway became friends with him, I believe.)
I'd love to be able to interview that sherrif.
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...that is, until he was allowed to sit in on a rap. After that experience, he said he would never send a kid back there again, and as far as I know, he never did. (Blownaway became friends with him, I believe.)
I'd love to be able to interview that sherrif.
I honestly can't remember his name. Idaho obviously knows it, and said that he still is sheriff up there, so I'd recommend PMing or emailing him and asking.
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My son was taken in January to SNWP in Georgia. My ex is picking him up today and transporting him to Carlbrook. (I wasn't invited because I disagreed with the treatment there) I am in desparate need of info regarding Tim Brace, R. Grant Price, etc. The last letter from my son to myself one to his girlfriend was that he would see us regularly and that she could visit with me (per his counselor at SNWP) So not true per the handbook that I was able to print off regarding this school. Because I disagreed with the program at SNWP (his therapist) he basically threatened me by saying this is going in my report to the court that I was uncooperative etc. My ex is an attorney and his family have practiced in this town for years so it's like the old boy network. So I need real info to go to court with!!!. Thanks
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My son was taken in January to SNWP in Georgia. My ex is picking him up today and transporting him to Carlbrook. (I wasn't invited because I disagreed with the treatment there) I am in desparate need of info regarding Tim Brace, R. Grant Price, etc. The last letter from my son to myself one to his girlfriend was that he would see us regularly and that she could visit with me (per his counselor at SNWP) So not true per the handbook that I was able to print off regarding this school. Because I disagreed with the program at SNWP (his therapist) he basically threatened me by saying this is going in my report to the court that I was uncooperative etc. My ex is an attorney and his family have practiced in this town for years so it's like the old boy network. So I need real info to go to court with!!!. Thanks
TIM BRACE has tortured and murdered many. google his name. The man is very ,very evil. Many will be willing to speak to you about their experience at CEDU.
Sign in under a user name so people can contact you. Be aware that cult disciples may try to contact you to get sensitive personal info to hurt you and your son, so be careful with the info you give out.
On the other hand, don’t worry about keeping your identity secret in public. People who have been successfully in rescused detainees from the American torture and thought refrom gulags have done so by drawing attention to its vcitims' torment. Consider posting your sons name, your husbands, and this "counslor's" name every place you can manage it. Go to everyone you think might help. Including the media, with survivor accounts.
These torture chambers are criminal and get away with their crimes only through pay offs and by targeting helpless children mostly sired by abusive parents who want their kids violated--they fold under public scrutiny.
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My son was taken in January to SNWP in Georgia. My ex is picking him up today and transporting him to Carlbrook. (I wasn't invited because I disagreed with the treatment there) I am in desparate need of info regarding Tim Brace, R. Grant Price, etc. The last letter from my son to myself one to his girlfriend was that he would see us regularly and that she could visit with me (per his counselor at SNWP) So not true per the handbook that I was able to print off regarding this school. Because I disagreed with the program at SNWP (his therapist) he basically threatened me by saying this is going in my report to the court that I was uncooperative etc. My ex is an attorney and his family have practiced in this town for years so it's like the old boy network. So I need real info to go to court with!!!. Thanks
Not legal advice:
It seems you're in a difficult situation. Even if you were able to show that Tim did bad things at CEDU, you would have to get admissible evidence of it (sworn statements, etc) to use it in court. You'd also probably have to show he has done similar things at CB and that his school is run in a similar harmful manner to CEDU. If he's like most program directors, hell say "yes, CEDU was bad, but we changed the bad aspects and kept the good" (they're never real specific about that). It's hard to disprove that objectively in court, even if you know it to be true.
Your best bet might be to put a shout out for CB survivors and ask if any are willing to sign sworn declarations in support of your case to help get your son out of the program. They exist (some have contacted me privately), but whether they want to speak out publicly is some convincing that you'll have to do. Convincing a person to go on record and put their full name in court papers (especially documenting a stay at a program) is not easy to do. Nobody wants to have the stigma of even having been at one of these places.
I think you're going about this in the wrong way. You're trying to get your son out of the program through legal action when you can, instead, put pressure on the program with all your resources until they bend to your will. Be a pain in the ass to them. Check their staff qualifications (look them up), and if they're not licensed, and they claim to be, but are still practicing therapy.. report them to the appropriate authorities (and publicize it). Set up a website on Carlbrook (I can help you with this). You might even put the program under in this process, in which case... well, that's one way to get your kid out.
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I know why these parents are so angry, I was ripped off just like they were. My son is now slightly older, and some has time has passed since his time in Carlbrook when he was seventeen. This parent supporting Carlbrook could have been me a short while ago, I believed it all too. We aren't evil people, believe that or not, we were just taken in by corrupt people wanting to make a quick buck off the backs of scared and ignorant parents. My son is now doing well in college, but only after he received proper treatment and therapy for his time at Carlbrook. He tell us now we wasted our money and it was a complete waste of time, and he had a horrible time. We still don't talk about it much, hopefully one day he can tell me everything. When I bring the subject up he gets angry so I let it go right now. I hope this can get better over the years. I apologize daily for my mistakes and hope he knows that I mean it. I found this forum by searching on Google and it is a great resource from what I can see. I've met other program parents and the posts here don't surprise me. We aren't all "tricked" into sending our child away with good intentions. Some parents just want to get rid of the child, it was sad to see that is the case sometimes. But this was not the case with my son. If you care about your child find an alternative to this place, it will only bring you problems in the future. Not to mention the college funds we wasted, now my husband had to go back to work and we all regret our ill fated decision. Once we got into family therapy and let him take responsibility for his life, well we really had no choice since he turned eighteen, things changed for the better. Once we stopped trying to control him and mold him into our ideal child things started to change for the better. Sending him away did nothing. If you have any questions for me or want to know more about my own experience please email me at [email protected] Thank you for your time and for the opportunity for me to say this.
Parent, i recomend the opposite of what Psy recomends.
Get lawyers involved NOW go to the media with your ordeal. This has been the way of all parents sucessful with removing their kids from hell have done it. Here is someone who will no doubt speak out for you. I'll bump some other posts for you too.
Anyway info is power, so I recomend buying a google sponsered link that pops up for CEDU, CARLBROOK, Tim Brace, and the other programs head staff was invovled in asking for info about the place as a mom whose kid was sent their against his and her will and is currently imprisonen therein.
Also contact ISAC, CAFETY, CAICA, HEAL four agencies that specialize in rescuing people held in captivity in the name of therapy.
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On 2006-02-17 16:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anonymous poster who doubts my existence: I just looked in the mirror, and yes, I am real. No, I did not think I was sending him to "golf camp", I thought I was sending him to an environment that fosters "intellectual, social, and personal development" as Carlbrook told me. You might have viewed it as a punishment I did not. My mistake. I came here to share my own experience and I find your rudeness and dismissiveness rather ironic considering your warnings earlier. Nobody else has been rude to me other than you. I suggest you take a look at your own actions before condemning everyone else. -Joe"
Hey, Joe. Thank you for sharing your experience with Carlbrook on the board. What you are saying does not surprise me in the least.
Your observation about this anon Carlbrook supporter is spot on. S/he came on here and began to rudely insult everyone in a "preemptive" fashion. This is typical of control-freak types that can't stand to have alternative viewpoints expressed.
That being said, people like Her/him support the program blindly. They have taken a leap of faith and have discarded the scientific method entirely. As I have explained before, these type of programs are not the "latest and greatest," but rather are the dredged up, cobbled-together pieces of behavioral science and psychotherapy that the professional mental health society had debunked and cast aside decades ago. Carlbrook is doing nothing more than rehashing the obvious mistakes of treatment modalities long dead and buried by scientific method and clinical study. The facts are that Carlbrook's methods have been debunked, proven ineffective and shown to cause damage to the developing mind for DECADES.
To reiterate: There is NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY CLINICAL STUDY THAT SUPPORTS THIS TYPE OF TREATMENT. Yet there are several dozens of clinical studies that show this methodology causes DAMAGE such as PTSD (just to name one).
So, what we are dealing with here, Joe, is people who refuse to look at proven fact so that they may retreat into "good feelings" doled out by the folks that fleeced them out of their money and hurt their children. These are the same type of people who believe in "Intelligent Design." They will cast aside proven fact and embrace insane concepts, so long as they can feel "right" about it in the end.
Welcome to the board and please don't be discouraged by crackpots and flamers. Any intelligent, fact and reality based assessment of the precioous program will be met with extreme hostility and ad hominem attacks. It comes with the territory.
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Parent, i recomend the opposite of what Psy recomends.
Or do both... and definitely contact media/or and ISACcorp as the guest suggests. All I'm saying is not to limit yourself to the courts exclusively. There is also the court of public opinion.
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14295&forum=9&start=0#178186
It seems there is a big change at Carlbrook - going to be more like at RTU than a prep school. Seems they have lost control and the inmates have started running the asylum. They have started this program called "In School Suspension" where the kids are isolated and not allowed to attend class, but their classwork is brought to them - they are supervised by a Security Staff not Advisors. Sounds like that like all these programs they have a 3 - 4 year honeymoon and then the shit hits the fan.
Alot of kids have been sent home or back to the Wilderness - also seems to be an increase in the attempted escapes.
LGA works for some but not for all - hope they all have made lots of money!
Hmmm..
Isn't there's a poster called KAreninDAllas, who used to be pro-carlbrook and than realized it was a cult that abused her kid? she'd speak out against i think
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More disturbing information about Carlbrook surfaces... As if having Tim Brace running the show weren't enough, this was posted on another thread:
I have been reading the feedback from all the posters about the pro's and con's of Carlbrook.
The foundation every program is built on, is the credibility of the owners and employees of the program, regardless of the type of program. The first person on the list of key people for Carlbrook is Dr. Glenn Bender. He states on his resume he has 25 years experience as an educator and employee of a number of programs and schools.
Dr. Bender seems to have forgotten his place of employment just before Carlbrook. From 1999 until he started at Carlbrook, Dr. Bender was the Director of Admissions and Marketing at Alldredge Academy in Davis,West Virginia. In Feb 2001 a child died at Alldredge Academy. One year later, Alldredge Academy pleaded guilty to "Child neglect resulting in death". Dr Bender was the primary recruiter of that childs family. He assured the family that Alldredge Academy was a safe and appropriate placement for a child with depression yet when the child died as a result of depression, Dr. Bender seemed to disappear. I can understand why Dr. Bender would not want to list an employer with a criminal conviction on his resume, considering he was a major player in the crime. In every field, weather it is academics or business, falsifying a resume is a serious breach of ethics usually resulting in dismissal. Did the other principals of Carlbrook not know or not care? In either event this creates a credibility issue and calls into question the honesty of the entire program.
IMO this doesn't "call into question" the credibility of Carlbrook, they already have none. This just proves what everyone else has been saying. It just takes a little time for all of the REAL information to come out. It took eleven years for HLA's past to catch up and they're going through a REMARKABLE unravelling that will more than likely end up with charges of fraud and financial/ethical impropriety.
For everyone who was mistreated at Carlbrook, keep speaking out until the truth becomes self-evident.
maybe some people from Alldredge Academy, perhaps the parents of the kid it murdered, can help you
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Well, it goes to show that they hire the trash thrown out by other facilities. That can't be good.
Anyway...
The presence of Glenn Bender on campus, while a waste of resources, means absolutely nothing as far as whether the program is sound and kids benefit from it.
Can you show any studies that DO show the program works? I'm interested in ANY clinical documentation that exists about the efficacy of Carlbrook's "program." Surely you can quote some or provide references to them, right?
If not, are we left to just taking your word for it that it works?
That theres no clinical proof that carlbrook does anything but hurt kids is in your favor.
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So I think someone just mentioned me way back on page 2; I was "that kid" who requested to be sent to the woods in the middle of the winter. Weird.
Yeah, I went back to the woods, because they said if I did then I wouldn't have my graduation moved back (kept there for several extra months) because of the trouble I got myself into. They also said that I'd only be there (in the woods) for 2 weeks, so I wouldn't miss the last workshop (or seminar, for those who have attended different programs where that's the nomenclature preferred).
So that deal looked pretty good, and went off to the freezing Colorado wilderness, where I was informed after an extra 3 weeks that no, I couldn't graduate on time, as had been promised, and that I'd have to stick out another 6 months.
I was, at that point, heartbroken because all of the closest friends I'd ever had (one of the arguably few good things that comes out of Carlbrook and --I'm surmising-- its sister programs) would be graduating without me. So I said I wasn't willing to do that and went to go to California to finish highschool and live with my grandparents. It might just be the Stockholm-syndrome speaking, but it's probably the only real regret I have.
And yeah, I relapsed, and my use was far, far worse than it had been before Carlbrook/the two wilderness programs, but I eventually decided that enough was enough and went and got some 12-step help. I definitely have less in the way of criticism for those programs than I do the emotional-growth regimes, although one does notably need an internal desire to make them work.
Anyway, there's a nice ramble. I'm sure I'll read more and think of stuff I wish I'd said. I'd love to hear from anyone with any opinion- my email is [email protected], my AIM is BSturgess1985
Peace,
Sturge
this kid might help you
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So I did a little of the reading suggested by one disgruntled ex-student of some abusive program somewhere, (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/pathology.htm)) and not only did I take a long trip down memory lane, I also am now reconsidering what was left of the 'positive' experiences I had at Carlbrook; namely, the workshops. I don't really know what to think now, although that paper certainly lines up with the opinions of most of the shrinks I've talked to since leaving the 'Brook.
Any parent curious about the methods that the school uses in the scant-discussed workshops, as well as any grad who wants to really fuck up their Carlbrook experience and take a nice dose of vitamin C (for cynicism) should read that.
-Sturge
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Who provides, monitors and manages this oversight?
Apparently this responsibility falls not on the owners, board members, presidents, directors, headmasters, family heads, educational consultants or parents.
Apparently the duty of monitoring the complete lack of oversight falls on the fornitia.
Or, to put it another way, the media--the Fourth Estate of government--the public. I don't really have a problem with that. We can't really expect the organizations in question to objectively monitor themselves. Nor can we expect some government agency to do it.
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Who provides, monitors and manages this oversight?
Apparently this responsibility falls not on the owners, board members, presidents, directors, headmasters, family heads, educational consultants or parents.
Apparently the duty of monitoring the complete lack of oversight falls on the fornitia.
Or, to put it another way, the media--the Fourth Estate of government--the public. I don't really have a problem with that. We can't really expect the organizations in question to objectively monitor themselves. Nor can we expect some government agency to do it.
We expect the govt to "monitor" rape--aka punish people who commit it. Similarly, we can expect the govt to monitior abduction, imprisonment and torture.
Prior to the 70s anti rape statues, particularly date rape, were not enforced. Today, laws against abduction, imprisonment and torture are not enforced. We can and should expect them to be!
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So are people kept against their will at this place? Whats the deal?
A CB survivor in another thread spoke to this, but I can't remember which thread it is. It sounded identical to the line they gave us at CEDU, and I believe I even commented on it in that thread.
A student was held hostage through intimidation and mind-fucking. Do you want to leave? Fine, go ahead. There are no walls here. There are no gates or fences. Of course, where will you go? You're out in the middle of nowhere. You might get raped by a trucker. (as one kid actually did, and the staff milked that event for all it was worth, often in the presence of the victim)
If someone did split, and they weren't 18, they'd send the van out after you to pick you up. Blownaway (who has his splitting story in the CEDU section of this site) talks about his ordeal when he split, trying to keep to the backwoods so he wouldn't be apprehended by staff. He caught the search vans going by several times looking for him.
If you were lucky enough to make it into town (Bonners Ferry), normally the sheriff would snag you and bring you back to campus.
...that is, until he was allowed to sit in on a rap. After that experience, he said he would never send a kid back there again, and as far as I know, he never did. (Blownaway became friends with him, I believe.)
Now, I am fairly certain that CEDU was pretty much required to do this, since they were temporary custodians for all students, (even though they weren't legal guardians) and if the student was underage, they were therefore responsible, since if we got lost, they would get an earful of "wtf did you do with my kid" from the parents. So, I don't exactly take issue with the fact that they wanted to come looking for you. However, the circumstances regarding why students left, and the taunting that often preceded (or tried to dissuade) a splitting was more than just a little bit toxic. There was also mixed motivation in finding said child, since fear of a liability lawsuit held just as much weight as concern for the kid's welfare. (of course, their welfare wasnt exactly considered once they got back)
And then of course, the consequences weren't exactly much better, and obviously was also used as a deterrent.
When kids were brought back they were subjected to any number of different kinds of restrictions. Normally splitting meant either getting on a full-time or going down to survival school in southern Idaho, which was a major suckfest. By the time you got back from survival, you were happy to be at RMA, since at least there, they had fun things like heat and food and showers. blownaway spoke about how thrilled he was to be back from survival, simply because he was starving. I witnessed several kids come back from there. All of them had lost a considerable amount of weight, many were covered with infected insect bites (unless it was in the winter), and most of them had parasites. (giardia) I actually had an expedition down in that same area, and drinking that water without boiling it first will get you hellishly sick. If you were dehydrated and couldn't wait to build a fire to boil it (building fires in survival, btw, required using a bow drill) you'd get the parasite. Our expedition was lucky because we were allowed iodine tablets, but on survival, it all has to be boiled.
So.. there was nothing that was physically keeping us on the grounds. However, if we were underage, and we left... that was when shit went down.
Most of us felt a large sense of futility in even trying, since the location was so remote. The walk to town was maybe a one to two hour trek if you kept to the roads, which normally meant that you would eventually get picked up. A couple of guys in my peer group got as far as the Canadian border by hitching a ride in a boxcar, which is pretty fucking dangerous, especially if you value your legs.
CEDU running springs was even worse. You could see the city lights from campus, but the trek down the deceptively hikeable hill was actually quite treacherous. It kind of reminds me of alcatraz. You could see SF and it seemed sooo easy to cross... until you got in that freezing motherfucking cold water, and had to deal with currents that were a hell of a lot stronger than they looked.
An upper school student who was of age split while I was in Voyageurs, and a friend in his peer group walked him out. They had a last light about it, (i.e. the daily before bedtime thingy) and his friend was saying how he was just sick of it and decided to go. He was allowed to, of course, because he was an adult, so that was his last day there, basically. At that time (I dont know if it changed) CEDU was not like WWASPS in terms of lying to kids telling them that their parents had gotten extended custody, or getting the parents to not take their kid back, so he/she had nowhere to go after splitting. If you were 18 or older, you could physically leave the campus without fear that they would come after you. As far as I know, anyway.
At CEDU you were physically prevented from leaving, so I am somwehat confused by your answer.
If you read through this thread you find that survivors say that, yes, they were imprisoned, physically prevented from leaving Carlbrook--it is a gulag
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Do not sent your child to Carlbrook, as long as Grant Price is still in charge. For eleven months, I begged my parents to be sent anywhere else. Not home, just somewhere else. If forcing your child into treatment really seems like your best and only option, take a look at the Oakley School. For me, it was far less damaging and a lot easier to get into college from, as well as far more realistic, providing a little bit of freedom and seeing what you do with it, then tailoring the program to you from there. You get to be a lot more active and it provides far more opportunities for growth. Carlbrook needs to be shut down-- I can see that it began with good intentions but the fact that there have been two attempted "uprising" or "underground" situations in the last few years should be telltale enough, and the therapy is aggressive and hostile.
Carlbrook was not started with good intentions. It started after murderer and torturer Tim Brace recognized he could imprison and torture kids for profit at CEDU and wanted his own private for profit torture chamber.
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My ex is dropping off my son this morning. I spoke to him last night he had just been released from SNWP - the conversation was strange - he kept talking about a "higher power" which means the staff. I gave him the heads up about visiting, phone calls, letters, BANS, etc. I have been in contact with the State of Virginia Dept. of Education. Received a response that they were "extremely concerned about the contents of the parent handbook". I checked with the Dept. Health and none of the Advisors are licensed to practice in the State of Virginia and the consulting Psychologist isn't either although he is licensed in South Carolina. The powers that be are supposed to call me once he has been dropped off and settled in. I am appealing to anyone, survivors and parents of survivors to help me because the Judge will not have him removed from this program because of the report received from SWNP.
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PKW, do you have joint legal custody? Please try this site for legal advice:
http://forum.freeadvice.com/child-custo ... tation-37/ (http://forum.freeadvice.com/child-custody-visitation-37/)
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My ex is dropping off my son this morning. I spoke to him last night he had just been released from SNWP - the conversation was strange - he kept talking about a "higher power" which means the staff. I gave him the heads up about visiting, phone calls, letters, BANS, etc. I have been in contact with the State of Virginia Dept. of Education. Received a response that they were "extremely concerned about the contents of the parent handbook". I checked with the Dept. Health and none of the Advisors are licensed to practice in the State of Virginia and the consulting Psychologist isn't either although he is licensed in South Carolina. The powers that be are supposed to call me once he has been dropped off and settled in. I am appealing to anyone, survivors and parents of survivors to help me because the Judge will not have him removed from this program because of the report received from SWNP.
It's great youforwarded the manual to the Dept of Education. You might also want to forward it to the dept of health and whoever else you can think of (or whoever is supposed to be regulating residential treatment in VA). CB might claim to be a school, but it's crystal clear from their manual they are practicing treatment (and as such, probably require licensing as a facility).
As for the judge... If you can't find anybody else to come forward, try showing the judge this section of the handbook:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10982&start=2595#p328736 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10982&start=2595#p328736)
To me, it shows a clear danger in Carlbrook's policies (specifically in dealing with suicidal or homicidal kids). You might want to show the example of Alldredge Academy to drive the point home about the dangers of these sorts of policies.
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Thanks for the advice, at this point I do have joint custody and I will forward a copy of the handbook to the mental health dept. I have spoken to so many people today my head is spinning. The most recent was the Director of the SACS-CASI who advised me that they only accredited the school for Education and that I should call the school to raise any concerns about their policies. She did state though that they "had to abide by all of Virginia State Laws" which she assured me they did. Of course she didn't know who would oversee that. I have a call in to the school, they left me a message on my cell stating that a copy of the Parent Handbook would be mailed to me today, but since I already have one I have some ? for her and to please reach me at home.
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We expect the govt to "monitor" rape--aka punish people who commit it. Similarly, we can expect the govt to monitior abduction, imprisonment and torture.
Prior to the 70s anti rape statues, particularly date rape, were not enforced. Today, laws against abduction, imprisonment and torture are not enforced. We can and should expect them to be!
No, not like this. We don't have government monitors checking in each time someone fucks to make sure it was consensual. If you report a rape, chances are pretty good that they'll do some manner of investigation.... unless, of course, you report having been raped by a staff member in the troubled parent industry... or by a priest. All these things we're talking about, the violence, neglect, emotional abuse, they're already illegal. The trouble is that teenagers are the new scapegoated class. We collectively look the other way and assume they're lying or they deserve whatever they get. We don't need any new laws, just new attitudes.
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So I think someone just mentioned me way back on page 2; I was "that kid" who requested to be sent to the woods in the middle of the winter. Weird.
Yeah, I went back to the woods, because they said if I did then I wouldn't have my graduation moved back (kept there for several extra months) because of the trouble I got myself into. They also said that I'd only be there (in the woods) for 2 weeks, so I wouldn't miss the last workshop (or seminar, for those who have attended different programs where that's the nomenclature preferred).
So that deal looked pretty good, and went off to the freezing Colorado wilderness, where I was informed after an extra 3 weeks that no, I couldn't graduate on time, as had been promised, and that I'd have to stick out another 6 months.
I was, at that point, heartbroken because all of the closest friends I'd ever had (one of the arguably few good things that comes out of Carlbrook and --I'm surmising-- its sister programs) would be graduating without me. So I said I wasn't willing to do that and went to go to California to finish highschool and live with my grandparents. It might just be the Stockholm-syndrome speaking, but it's probably the only real regret I have.
And yeah, I relapsed, and my use was far, far worse than it had been before Carlbrook/the two wilderness programs, but I eventually decided that enough was enough and went and got some 12-step help. I definitely have less in the way of criticism for those programs than I do the emotional-growth regimes, although one does notably need an internal desire to make them work.
Anyway, there's a nice ramble. I'm sure I'll read more and think of stuff I wish I'd said. I'd love to hear from anyone with any opinion- my email is [email protected], my AIM is BSturgess1985
Peace,
Sturge
this kid might help you
d
PTW, did you contact Karenindallas or Bensturgess?
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Thanks for the advice, at this point I do have joint custody and I will forward a copy of the handbook to the mental health dept. I have spoken to so many people today my head is spinning. The most recent was the Director of the SACS-CASI who advised me that they only accredited the school for Education and that I should call the school to raise any concerns about their policies. She did state though that they "had to abide by all of Virginia State Laws" which she assured me they did. Of course she didn't know who would oversee that. I have a call in to the school, they left me a message on my cell stating that a copy of the Parent Handbook would be mailed to me today, but since I already have one I have some ? for her and to please reach me at home.
start a new thread called looking for carlbrook survivors and people abused by tim brace...on a variety of forums and contact
isac, cafety, heal caica
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start a new thread called looking for carlbrook survivors and people abused by tim brace...on a variety of forums and contact
isac, cafety, heal caica
do that, but not caica (long story).
Caica works with Sue Scheff, who gets paid by programs to refer kids (kids for cash). While she claims she would never send kids to bad places, she has (Whitmore, sue's favorite program to refer to, was cited by the GAO as the "worst of the worst"). Caica cannot be trusted. CAICA has stabbed parents in teh back before, too... just don't.
Word of advice: don't trust people who have ulterior motives and want to sell you something (even if they claim it's a better "product"). SImply, there is no way for parents (or anybody for that matter) to tell a good program from a bad one. Furthermore, there is no way for a parent to know whether a person referring to a program is getting paid (like the judge in PA). While it's not ethical, it's not illegal either, and it's very very hard to catch people who do it.
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Well, received my first letter from my son. He is pissed at his advisor and his teachers because they are telling him his girlfriend must have been a bad influence otherwise "why would you be hera". He is angry because he wasn't told what this place was like and doesn't know how long he is going to be there. I was told by his advisor not to text his girlfriend on his behalf. My first phone call is scheduled for next week via Laura (the phone lady) as mentioned on previous posts. Also received in the mail the list of books to read, what is expected of me at the first visit in June - oh and if he has not been behaving properly even though you have travelled all this way the visit with your son could very well be cancelled. Met with my attorney, gave him all the info I had so now and wait and see. Did find a email address for a law firm who is supposedly handling a class action suit against Hidden Lake Academy. Since Brace is the headmaster at Carlbrook and was also either the Headmaster and/or Director at Hidden Lake I hope I receive a response from this law firm.
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Well, received my first letter from my son. He is pissed at his advisor and his teachers because they are telling him his girlfriend must have been a bad influence otherwise "why would you be hera". He is angry because he wasn't told what this place was like and doesn't know how long he is going to be there. I was told by his advisor not to text his girlfriend on his behalf. My first phone call is scheduled for next week via Laura (the phone lady) as mentioned on previous posts. Also received in the mail the list of books to read, what is expected of me at the first visit in June - oh and if he has not been behaving properly even though you have travelled all this way the visit with your son could very well be cancelled. Met with my attorney, gave him all the info I had so now and wait and see. Did find a email address for a law firm who is supposedly handling a class action suit against Hidden Lake Academy. Since Brace is the headmaster at Carlbrook and was also either the Headmaster and/or Director at Hidden Lake I hope I receive a response from this law firm.
GO PUBLIC with your story. That is the only way. These "schools" don't want the publci to know they hold their "students" prisoner. Why are you being so meek about this?
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Yes. But bear in mind that there are varrying degrees and moods of publicity. I'm trying to find this old thread but having no luck. The OP was a 16yo girl who's boyfriend had been disappeared into a WWASP program. She started a Myspace page titled something like "Save Alex". I posted a static ad for that thread w/ the boy's picture taken from the girl's Myspace page. As I recall, at that time we had almost a complete corner on the market of people who were willing, able and inclined to investigate this topic.
- The good: Despite the bad and the truly ugly developments, some serious minded and well informed people provided the same kind of good advice as you're getting now. A few people sent copies of Maia Szalavitz Help At Any Cost (http://http://helpatanycost.com/) to the various social workers, schoolpeople, clerks of court, lawyers, etc. Others personally contacted those same officials with their own experience and (eghhem) interacted with family members and friends on the forum. In the end, if I'm remembering right, a writ of habeas corpus got the kid out, but the judge asked him the kind of questions he knew to ask because of the information that had been provided to all parties.
- The bad: There was so much publicity and all bearing the kid's last name (he was a legal adult) that it brought a lot of stress onto everyone involved.
- The truly ugly: The things this kid's mother, sister and aunt said about both of these kids was just disgusting! For example, they took a punk rock band "friend" off of the girl's myspace and characterized that as both of them consorting with heroin addicts.
When you find those people willing and able to give concise, relevant information, put them in touch with the people charged with contributing to any decisions that may be made in his case. But I wouldn't advise anybody to go so far as using surnames or other blatantly identifying information in any public space unless you're up for living a very-real and quite protracted episode of Maury guest hosted by Jerry Springer. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It can be fun if you can keep your sense of humor about it. But it is a very hard row to ho.
:jerry:
Please keep us updated and don't hesitate to ask for any help you may need.
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Yes. But bear in mind that there are varrying degrees and moods of publicity. I'm trying to find this old thread but having no luck. The OP was a 16yo girl who's boyfriend had been disappeared into a WWASP program. She started a Myspace page titled something like "Save Alex". I posted a static ad for that thread w/ the boy's picture taken from the girl's Myspace page. As I recall, at that time we had almost a complete corner on the market of people who were willing, able and inclined to investigate this topic.
- The good: Despite the bad and the truly ugly developments, some serious minded and well informed people provided the same kind of good advice as you're getting now. A few people sent copies of Maia Szalavitz Help At Any Cost (http://http://helpatanycost.com/) to the various social workers, schoolpeople, clerks of court, lawyers, etc. Others personally contacted those same officials with their own experience and (eghhem) interacted with family members and friends on the forum. In the end, if I'm remembering right, a writ of habeas corpus got the kid out, but the judge asked him the kind of questions he knew to ask because of the information that had been provided to all parties.
- The bad: There was so much publicity and all bearing the kid's last name (he was a legal adult) that it brought a lot of stress onto everyone involved.
- The truly ugly: The things this kid's mother, sister and aunt said about both of these kids was just disgusting! For example, they took a punk rock band "friend" off of the girl's myspace and characterized that as both of them consorting with heroin addicts.
When you find those people willing and able to give concise, relevant information, put them in touch with the people charged with contributing to any decisions that may be made in his case. But I wouldn't advise anybody to go so far as using surnames or other blatantly identifying information in any public space unless you're up for living a very-real and quite protracted episode of Maury guest hosted by Jerry Springer. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It can be fun if you can keep your sense of humor about it. But it is a very hard row to ho.
:jerry:
Please keep us updated and don't hesitate to ask for any help you may need.
I see what you mean, but "fear of shame" is no reason to allow your own kid to be victimized.
If everyone stood up --for their own kids--even though their fight might result in other people "thinking" their family is abnormal these monsters would be stopped quickly
fear of personal shame should not allow this kid's imprisonment torture to be extended
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So I have to tell you all... Your thread is a bit scary. This doesnt exactly sound like a very ahhh warm school? I've read like a solid 50 conversations on this website about carlbrook... I happened across it while a friend and I were googling my new therapist for fun... her name was listed in these threads... turns out she was at carlbrook for like its first four years and just recently came here... Like I didnt think she was creepy enough already... you have successfully made me slightly afraid of my therapist lol... Especially with words like abuse... cult.. and brainwashing being thrown about.
I had no idea that schools like carlbrook even existed before googling a day or two ago...
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I see what you mean, but "fear of shame" is no reason to allow your own kid to be victimized.
If everyone stood up --for their own kids--even though their fight might result in other people "thinking" their family is abnormal these monsters would be stopped quickly
fear of personal shame should not allow this kid's imprisonment torture to be extended
It's not just personal shame. Put yourself in the shoes of a prospective employer, business associate, even social contact finding this highly personal, ugly stuff splattered all over the net. Not saying don't do it. In fact for my purposes, any publicity is good publicity for 'the cause(s)'. I just like to throw out that warning so that people who do go the major publicity route do so mindful of the down side.
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So I have to tell you all... Your thread is a bit scary. This doesnt exactly sound like a very ahhh warm school? I've read like a solid 50 conversations on this website about carlbrook... I happened across it while a friend and I were googling my new therapist for fun... her name was listed in these threads... turns out she was at carlbrook for like its first four years and just recently came here... Like I didnt think she was creepy enough already... you have successfully made me slightly afraid of my therapist lol... Especially with words like abuse... cult.. and brainwashing being thrown about.
I had no idea that schools like carlbrook even existed before googling a day or two ago...
Hello, thespian, I was tortured in a "school" like this, my sibling was tortured by the people who founded it. These aren't " schools" they are basically fronts for cults and detention centers . You are held prisoner in them, and cannot leave if you wish, or make phone calls to, well anyone, let alone a lawyer. There is no due process, habeas corpus, and if you are under 18 (and in some cases, under 21)at any minute, without warning, you can be kidnapped by on of these organizations and held there, “disappeared,” sometimes forever.
What qualitifiations does your therepist have? Will you ask her about the Carlbrook "school'?
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I see what you mean, but "fear of shame" is no reason to allow your own kid to be victimized.
If everyone stood up --for their own kids--even though their fight might result in other people "thinking" their family is abnormal these monsters would be stopped quickly
fear of personal shame should not allow this kid's imprisonment torture to be extended
It's not just personal shame. Put yourself in the shoes of a prospective employer, business associate, even social contact finding this highly personal, ugly stuff splattered all over the net. Not saying don't do it. In fact for my purposes, any publicity is good publicity for 'the cause(s)'. I just like to throw out that warning so that people who do go the major publicity route do so mindful of the down side.
I see what you mean, but to be honest, i really don't think there's a stigma. People go on the 'real world' various reality shows make complete fools of themselves, and have no problems, really. There's not such a big stimga about being a torture victim? Most people aren't that..malformed. And since the alternative to fighting publicly, pressing charges, etc. is being driven into insantity by a cult, I don't think there's much of a choice. Should women about to get raped not call for help because there is a stigma about being raped? Just, FIGHT FOR YOUR KID, lady. The longer he's there the less of him there will be when he leaves. Its a matter of weeks, not months before these places start damaging you.
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wow yah this is some deep stuff. I have joked and called my therapist "satan" for the past few months. lol and I even kiddingly once wrote a paper for my psychology class on the psychology of cults... the members and leaders... and I sent her an email telling her that after reading through that info I thought she would make a fine cult leader. and now heyy look I have to laugh a lil turns out she's had some cult experience.
I told her that I had googled her and discovered this thread. She became upset about it...
She said she worked there for four years. and said she learned more while there than anywhere else...
Initially I had only read a few posts when asking her about it... But as I read further last night I became entirely sketched out... It's more than a lil creepy that she worked there... If it's really as bad as everyone seems to claim.. then I'm not sure that I'm thrilled that Im seeing a therapist that worked there for four years and claims to have learned a ton from it.
Hope she didnt learn too much while there...
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oops. that last post was mine I just forgot to log in.
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wow yah this is some deep stuff. I have joked and called my therapist "satan" for the past few months. lol and I even kiddingly once wrote a paper for my psychology class on the psychology of cults... the members and leaders... and I sent her an email telling her that after reading through that info I thought she would make a fine cult leader. and now heyy look I have to laugh a lil turns out she's had some cult experience.
I told her that I had googled her and discovered this thread. She became upset about it...
She said she worked there for four years. and said she learned more while there than anywhere else...
Initially I had only read a few posts when asking her about it... But as I read further last night I became entirely sketched out... It's more than a lil creepy that she worked there... If it's really as bad as everyone seems to claim.. then I'm not sure that I'm thrilled that Im seeing a therapist that worked there for four years and claims to have learned a ton from it.
Hope she didnt learn too much while there...
Oh, my god. She claimed to have learned a lot from it? That's truly sick. What is her name, please? I know she's already listed, but it would still be helpful... These places hide who worked for them.
It would help me to know...
What is she like as a therapist? Out of curiosity?
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That's another great benefit of going public. It allows others down the line in situations similar to Lil_Thespian to uncover vital information that the programs and individuals involved in them will certainly not volunteer and often actively hide.
Please do consider posting this person's name, Thespian... after you've found another therapist!
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yes she is a licensed therapist.. now working in maine.. I did check that. I'd rather not specify the name.. like I said she's already listed on here.. one of the few LCSW's because most were unlicensed.. that should narrow it a bit for you.. plus after four yrs she's no longer working there.. she works at my school.. and in a private practice where I see her...
Idk this is all very sketchy to me.. I have a hard time believing that this carlbrook place could be as bad as you all make it out to be.. I cannot imagine she'd be there for four years and condone such things.. and even say I quote- "But I learned more in the four years I was there than I have at any other time or place in my life."
Perhaps this board blows it out of proportion a bit... I mean I know I've called her creepy on occasion and thought she was scary at times.. but well I certainly cannot imagine her condoning or participating in the type of things mentioned here...
She seems to genuinely want to help kids... to help me... I mean either she was seriously part of a bad program and seriously made some moral and ethical mistakes... or this board blows it a bit out of proportion.. if this school is as bad as you claim... and she "learned" more from that than anywhere... than I must question my choice in therapist I suppose.. although who'll believe I dumped my therapist for cult type tendencies?!?! lol... anyway... but well if this has just been a bit blown out of proportion than I'd be making a mistake by leaving her...
I mean what about the boy that seemed as though he had a decent enough experience.. his screen name was like Irv or something... whether or not the practices are ethical.. I mean isnt it for the greater good if you're taking kids that otherwise would have ended up dropping out of high school or druggys or in jail... and you make them into Ivy league college acceptable students?
I mean that sounds almost surreal.
If all of this is true...
A. I am entirely creeped out by my therapists participation
B. why is this not more publically known
C. How can this occur in the U.S.?
I mean she said and I again quote "that school is the number 1 therapeutic boarding school for teens in America. It is still running, very successful, it is licensed and overseen. No reputable allegations of misconduct have ever been made against its practices."
I am struggling... I am unsure as to whether I should believe a bunch of posts made by people online that I have never met... or my therapist... isn't your therapist supposed to definitely be one of the main people in your life that you can trust? I do trust her... I do not believe that she would have stayed at a school for four years if it were this bad.
I will not give you the name. I do not wish to further associate her name with such allegations. I cannot prove that they're true... I have never seen them first hand... Therefore I should not be any part of putting her name out on the web in a disreputable way...
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yes she is a licensed therapist.. now working in maine.. I did check that. I'd rather not specify the name.. like I said she's already listed on here.. one of the few LCSW's because most were unlicensed.. that should narrow it a bit for you.. plus after four yrs she's no longer working there.. she works at my school.. and in a private practice where I see her...
Idk this is all very sketchy to me.. I have a hard time believing that this carlbrook place could be as bad as you all make it out to be.. I cannot imagine she'd be there for four years and condone such things.. and even say I quote- "But I learned more in the four years I was there than I have at any other time or place in my life."
Perhaps this board blows it out of proportion a bit... I mean I know I've called her creepy on occasion and thought she was scary at times.. but well I certainly cannot imagine her condoning or participating in the type of things mentioned here...
She seems to genuinely want to help kids... to help me... I mean either she was seriously part of a bad program and seriously made some moral and ethical mistakes... or this board blows it a bit out of proportion.. if this school is as bad as you claim... and she "learned" more from that than anywhere... than I must question my choice in therapist I suppose.. although who'll believe I dumped my therapist for cult type tendencies?!?! lol... anyway... but well if this has just been a bit blown out of proportion than I'd be making a mistake by leaving her...
I mean what about the boy that seemed as though he had a decent enough experience.. his screen name was like Irv or something... whether or not the practices are ethical.. I mean isnt it for the greater good if you're taking kids that otherwise would have ended up dropping out of high school or druggys or in jail... and you make them into Ivy league college acceptable students?
I mean that sounds almost surreal.
If all of this is true...
A. I am entirely creeped out by my therapists participation
B. why is this not more publically known
C. How can this occur in the U.S.?
I mean she said and I again quote "that school is the number 1 therapeutic boarding school for teens in America. It is still running, very successful, it is licensed and overseen. No reputable allegations of misconduct have ever been made against its practices."
I am struggling... I am unsure as to whether I should believe a bunch of posts made by people online that I have never met... or my therapist... isn't your therapist supposed to definitely be one of the main people in your life that you can trust? I do trust her... I do not believe that she would have stayed at a school for four years if it were this bad.
I will not give you the name. I do not wish to further associate her name with such allegations. I cannot prove that they're true... I have never seen them first hand... Therefore I should not be any part of putting her name out on the web in a disreputable way...
Wow…to answer that post requires a lot of typing and links.
I’ll let others do that, but right off, I’ll tell you that “these things happen in the U.S.” partly because of the self-same cruelty and stupidity you display in the following sentence:
“I mean isnt it for the greater good if you're taking kids that otherwise would have ended up dropping out of high school or druggys or in jail... and you make them into Ivy league college acceptable students?”
Thespian, do you think that because the Spanish Inquisition claimed to take people who were Bad Christians, Adulterers, Witches, and Satan’s Cohorts, and purify their souls, that what it did was for the "greater good"?
Do you think that the people the Spanish Inquisition “purified” were really guilty of the badness they were accused of?
Do you think its victims truly were “purified”?
Do you know there is no more clinical proof that the methods that Carlbrook employs helps its targets anymore than there is clinical proof the Spanish Inquisition helped the people it targeted?
Do you know what Carlbrook does is medically classified as thought reform, torture and abuse?
Do you know what Carlbrook does is legally classified as abduction, false imprisonment, sexual, physical and psychological abuse?
Do you really believe torturing people “helps” them?
Do you know there is no oversight whatsoever for organizations that provide psychological "treatment" of young people, and if you wanted, you could clear out a spare room, and start kidnapping young people(with their guadian's go-ahead) do whatever you wanted to them, call it therapy and not need to worry about legal consquences? Don't beleive me? Try it. See what happens. Things worked out pretty well for your therapist.
Do you really think people should be abducted and imprisoned without due process simply because of the ACCUSATION that IN THE FUTURE they will end up “druggys” or in “prison”?
Do you think that you should be abducted and imprisoned simply because someone says that would be “good” for you?
Some of the people posting that Carlbrook imprisoned and tortured and brainwashed or kidnapped their son provide their emails. Why don't you ask them how Carlbrook gets away with it? The woman who posts a couple above is dealing with her son being held prisoner. She's hired lawyers. Even with that, her son is still being held prisoner.
As for being registered as a therapist. Check to make sure she really has a Masters in psych, after 6 years of study at a real university. Credentials can be faked,as has been done by many employees of CEDU and Carlbrook and va. other "therapeutic boarding school" "rehab" providers as you can see by searching this forum
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I am struggling... I am unsure as to whether I should believe a bunch of posts made by people online that I have never met... or my therapist... isn't your therapist supposed to definitely be one of the main people in your life that you can trust? I do trust her... I do not believe that she would have stayed at a school for four years if it were this bad.
Thespian, this might help to put things into perspective. Warning, though, it's rather graphic! It's a PBS documentary about the history of frontal lobotomy. Hard as it may be to fathom today, in the mid to late `40's they were lobotomizing everyone from hyper kids to bored housewives. It was accepted practice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0aNILW6ILk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0aNILW6ILk)
Similarly, the TC method, fucked up as it is, has come to be probably the most widely accepted form of treatment for everything from drug addiction (whether real or imagined) to homosexuality, eating disorders, depression .... the list goes on and on and on. The people who endorse it seem sincere because they are sincere. They truly believe that they are saving people by breaking their will and forcing them to believe and behave in a manner more acceptable to others around them. That belief on their part does not make them correct.
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I am struggling... I am unsure as to whether I should believe a bunch of posts made by people online that I have never met... or my therapist... isn't your therapist supposed to definitely be one of the main people in your life that you can trust? I do trust her... I do not believe that she would have stayed at a school for four years if it were this bad.
Thespian, this might help to put things into perspective. Warning, though, it's rather graphic! It's a PBS documentary about the history of frontal lobotomy. Hard as it may be to fathom today, in the mid to late `40's they were lobotomizing everyone from hyper kids to bored housewives. It was accepted practice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0aNILW6ILk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0aNILW6ILk)
Similarly, the TC method, fucked up as it is, has come to be probably the most widely accepted form of treatment for everything from drug addiction (whether real or imagined) to homosexuality, eating disorders, depression .... the list goes on and on and on. The people who endorse it seem sincere because they are sincere. They truly believe that they are saving people by breaking their will and forcing them to believe and behave in a manner more acceptable to others around them. That belief on their part does not make them correct.
The difference is it was scientists who developed the lobotomy. The people lobotomizing kids today through torture are not scientists nor do they oeprate within the realm of science, however debauched. They are lay-people, performing rituals developed by Charels Deidrich, leader of the Synanon cult.
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I did not watch your video. Sorry. We discussed that procedure in my Psychology class. Speaking of which I am required to do 5 article reviews a quarter and share them with the class. I am currently writing one tonight to share with the class tomorrow on CEDU. I found an interesting article on it... and I have to agree... after reading all that has been said here.. it is very creepy how much Carlbrook appears to have in common with the original CEDU institutions.. I mean sure they threw in a bit more academically and lessened the amount of time spent in the "raps", "workshops" whatever you would like to call those incriments of time in which a bunch of people spent in a room emotionally breaking one another.
I am truly sorry for anyone who underwent any sort of CEDU institution. I do not feel qualified to judge about Carlbrook simply because I never attended.. I am simply a student enrolled in a public high school several states away that has a therapist that worked there.. I am entirely removed. But frankly from a teen perspective it sounds like utter hell. If it is truly and honestly as brainwashing and cult like as it has been made out to be on this thread than I do feel truly bad for any student or parent that had to endure any of it...
Though I still cannot fathom that my therapist played a role in such a program... But I do see your point about how they might believe it was for the betterment of society and might believe that what they were doing was right... But not speaking for carlbrook but simply for CEDU it is so blatantly twisted and sick... it says in the article that I am doing my paper on that they would spend 1-5 hours in one of the "raps" during which time anywhere from 1-15 students could all being yelling at one another at the same time or yelling at themselves or crying hysterically.. and the leaders were unqualified to guide such a group and yet saw themselves as perfectly qualified... contact with parents was severed...
it really sounds sick... and like a very perverted way to achieve societal perfection... why dont we take various intelligent kids causing disturbances within their homes or community.. brainwash them.. and then send them back into the community... I was disgusted while reading about CEDU... and if Carlbrook is as you have mentioned like these other programs then I am deeply sorry.
frankly I cannot believe that america doesnt have a better system in place for such boarding homes...
Perhaps the hardest piece for me to fathom though is that a whole group of proffesionals in the field of psychology would bind together to pull off such a program. it is so very disturbing... we've heard of crack pot scientists... but psychologists? social workers? It's just crazy... they went into the field to help people... why kidnap and abuse and entirely deconstruct humans? I cannot understand this at all.
I am hoping to go into the field myself... But even I could realize if I entered into a school like that what was going on and I should hope I would quit and apply elsewhere.. I cannot imagine that I would ever stick around and condone and encourage such methods... I cannot imagine that my therapist did at all...
I still remain commentless on carlbrook simply because should I believe such things... I would be forced to believe that my therapist whom I spend 50 mins a week with stayed and condoned and participated for four years in such awful things... I cannot even begin to fathom that.
I will admit though that the correlations between their treatment program and CEDU seem amazingly similar...
Idk... but quite honestly this is the last freaking therapist I ever google.
So let me clarify though.. so you're saying that Carlbrook specifically in the last 7 years has kidnapped students and been abusive and violated their rights? Specifically this school? Because quite frankly I would believe the others wholeheartedly and the others do not affect me at all.. I am specifically curious about this one... because this is the one that my therapist worked at and "learned" so much from...
Thank you for all of your input. I have found this all very fascinating and I intend to do my part throughout my lifetime to help spread the knowledge of such "therapeutic boarding homes"... It is really very sick. Thanks to Mel Wasserman... what was that man thinking?! and how on earth did so many intelligent people that began by wanting to help civilization go awry?
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Though I still cannot fathom that my therapist played a role in such a program... But I do see your point about how they might believe it was for the betterment of society and might believe that what they were doing was right... But not speaking for carlbrook but simply for CEDU it is so blatantly twisted and sick... it says in the article that I am doing my paper on that they would spend 1-5 hours in one of the "raps" during which time anywhere from 1-15 students could all being yelling at one another at the same time or yelling at themselves or crying hysterically.. and the leaders were unqualified to guide such a group and yet saw themselves as perfectly qualified... contact with parents was severed...
it really sounds sick... and like a very perverted way to achieve societal perfection... why dont we take various intelligent kids causing disturbances within their homes or community.. brainwash them.. and then send them back into the community... I was disgusted while reading about CEDU... and if Carlbrook is as you have mentioned like these other programs then I am deeply sorry.
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You are doing a paper on CEDU? And you are in High School? I am a survivor of CEDU. CEDU murdered its students in great numbers by driving them to suicide and a couple of kids were beaten to death while they were there. It only closed a few years ago...I can't belevie they are doing papers on it in highschools!!
Maybe you can help get justice for the survivors of it?
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So let me clarify though.. so you're saying that Carlbrook specifically in the last 7 years has kidnapped students and been abusive and violated their rights? Specifically this school? Because quite frankly I would believe the others wholeheartedly and the others do not affect me at all.. I am specifically curious about this one... because this is the one that my therapist worked at and "learned" so much from...
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Almost directly above your post, there is a post woman trying to liberate her son from the Carlbrook private captivity center. He is being held there against his and her will, upon the wishes and financing of her ex-husband.
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The difference is it was scientists who developed the lobotomy. The people lobotomizing kids today through torture are not scientists nor do they oeprate within the realm of science, however debauched. They are lay-people, performing rituals developed by Charels Deidrich, leader of the Synanon cult.
You may be mistaken there. I can't prove it to a dead certainty, but there is, in my opinion, substantial circumstantial evidence to support the idea that the TC model was developed in part by CIA. We may well all have been unwitting lab rats in a pretty frightening government psych experiment.
Here's a little bit of background on CIA involvement in studying thought reform.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing)
And here is a video of former head of CIA, George HW Bush, endorsing Straight, Inc. by name
http://thestraights.com/video/bush.rm (http://thestraights.com/video/bush.rm)
Dark, scary shit, eh?
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The same people who love torture in one place love torture in another place.
It must be a conspiracy!
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Hmmm. Well I wrote my Psych paper for class today on CEDU. I sent a copy to my therapist... should be interesting to hear what she has to say.. lol.
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Hmmm. Well I wrote my Psych paper for class today on CEDU. I sent a copy to my therapist... should be interesting to hear what she has to say.. lol.
You are writing a paper on CEDU for a psych class in high school? How is that even an option?
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Hmmm. Well I wrote my Psych paper for class today on CEDU. I sent a copy to my therapist... should be interesting to hear what she has to say.. lol.
You are writing a paper on CEDU for a psych class in high school? How is that even an option?
Will you send my a copy of it if I give you my email..? I don't understand how people even know about CEDU let alone how high schoolers are doing papers about it?
Also, you said you found this forum by googling your therapist...but you did a paper on CEDU and you didnt know about this forum? Something about this is very odd to me
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There are dozens of articles on the web about CEDU along with numerous wiki pages. It wouldn't be impossible to do a paper on CEDU. Besides.. this is high school.. i can't imagine it being a very long paper. Most I ever did in High school on average was 2 to 3 pages.
Post the paper to this thread if you could. I'm curious to read it as my brother spent a bit of time in a CEdU school.
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sorry allow me to clarify... I am taking a high school psych class. I have to do five article reviews every quarter. Meaning I choose an article on some psychological topic... read it... summarize its info in a few paragraphs.. then write an opinon paragraph about it.
if you're confused about my timeline I will elaborate.
I have been taking the psych class all semester.
I googled my therapist friday night and found your forum. I read various posts on here and learned about CEDU and the like organizations..
Last night I did one of my five psych article reviews on this topic.. I simply googled CEDU and did it on the wikipedia article.
This truly shouldnt seem fishy to you... my therapist really worked there.. I honestly just googled her and found this... It's just a four paragraph review.. and you can find the article by going to wikipedia and typing CEDU in the search bar.
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Hey lil...
Why don't you post the finished product for us? We are merely curious to see what you have to say. As an English teacher, former staff member, and a brother to a survivor of a CEDU school you have me intrigued on several levels.
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Me too. My daughter has been writing on drug policy and the troubled teen industry once since her Jr. year in high school. I think that can't be a bad thing. Whatever captivates people's attention when first setting out might carry over into whatever you do with the next couple of years, at least. I'd love to see your take on this.
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this.
would love to see it when you're done and if willing.
although some of us might be tougher graders than your teacher. ;)
kidding. kidding. :P
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I'd pay top dollar to have inner sanctum access to the entire process.
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so I passed in my psych article.. In truth it really wasnt well written and it was just a summary of the other guys article anyway... I dont think you'd enjoy it. Honestly, it is quite dry and has more grammatical errors than I know what to do with... But I do have yet another opportunity involving all of this.
I am in a Playwriting class in my highschool. I love theater and have taken all of the classes available to me through my school... But so my most recent assignment is to write a hero's journey play. I spoke with my playwriting teacher today and pitched him the idea of setting the play in a CEDU like school.
Crafting the world of the play around some awful disciplinary school that my protagonist would be enrolled in. It needs to be a three act structure play...
I feel like I've gathered enough from the many many posts on here to understand.. who was enrolled and why... what type of staff worked there... the workshops or "raps" that they undergo.. the terrain around the schools and various other things... But what I do not have is an accurate understanding of the academics associated with such schools... what sort of systems are in play for that.. where do they rank academically.. and what the inside of one of the institutions might look like.. what is the setting for a workshop? What does a dorm room look like? Are we talking scary white padded rooms.. or lavish dorm rooms.. for workshops are we talking big comfy chairs where they all sit around and converse... or being forced to stand in a circle in a dimly lit room for an hour?
Could anyone possibly elaborate on some of the more intricate details of these institutions.. I would love to make the play as fact based as possible.. and then when people ask about where the idea came from I can elaborate and tell them that it is honestly based on a very real problem and very real institutions...
Can anyone help me out a bit? I have the basic outline of what the world might look like... But I'm still lacking...
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http://www.heal-online.org/cedu.htm---read (http://www.heal-online.org/cedu.htm---read) about torture here
Sorta resentful that some kids get tortured to death in CEDU while others get to write plays about them, while not being compassionate to want to publish their therapist's name who was invovled in torturing kids, just like kids were tortured at CEDU. But that's life and the horrid people in it, i guess
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Late 1980's / Early 90's Description of RMA (cedu of the north)
academics
They were piss poor. Most of the teachers were ordinary at best. The cedu faculty made it clear to the academic teachers that the students were a bunch of emotional basket cases that needed to pass. So the few good teachers were prevented from doing any actual real teaching. The classes were easy. Academics were only in place so that CEDU could have accredidation and hand out diplomas. Plenty of parent's who were on the fence would have probably opted out of sending their kid there if they were going to shell out $100k and not get a diploma.
Month 1-3 = 2 classes a week. Tuesday & Thursday afternoons. Poetry and mortensen math . Mortensen math was a joke. It was lego visuals for mongloids math. Poetry as in bullshit poetry that we wrote about our feelings. We never studied any real poetry.
http://www.mortensenmathdirect.com/ (http://www.mortensenmathdirect.com/)
Month 4-12 = slightly better classes but still a joke. Watercoloring and cartoons for the emotionally challenged.
Month 12- 28 = "real" classes. Ordinary high school classes. It was such a relief to be in the upper school and be in 'real' classes. Again, compared to your average public high school the classes were not challenging. They were watered down to the point that an oranguatan could pass them.
In 89 they completed the Emmerson academic builing at RMA. This significantly improved the academic program. Before
Emmerson many classes were in the same rooms as raps. Those rooms suck. When you're in those rap rooms you can't help but feel agitated. You look at the carpet and wonder how much snot is cooked into the fibers.
what the inside of one of the institutions might look like?
RMA looked like a country lodge. Everything was made out of wood. Woodgrain, woodgrain and more woodgrain. Paths were lined with circular stones (not the rectangular masonry you see at high end resorts). Each builidng was heated by wood burning fire stoves. The buildings were painted brown or tan on the outside if painted at all. The inside of the rooms was not painted. All natural wood.
What does a dorm room look like?
Most were 6 man configurations. 3 bunk beds and 3 bunk foot lookers. Closets had no doors. Each dorm shared a bathroom with another 6 man dorm. 3 showers, 3 toilets for 12 students
Not white padded & not lavish.
Rap & propheet rooms
They had 20+ black plastic chairs with silver legs. Uncomfortable. There isn't a graduate alive that doesn't cringe at the site of one. Each rap had 2-3 comfy wood chairs with cushions for the staff.
raps lasted 4-5 hours. Lighting was normal except the workshops. During the workshops they put sheets over all the windows.
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thanks so much-- ahh dishdutyfugitive is it?
That is wonderfully helpful!
Also for the guest that post. I am terribly sorry if my request upset you. I hope that you understand why it is that I havent posted her name... Above all else and completely disregarding the fact that I never witnessed her participate in such torturous acts... I still currently see her... infact I see her again in 4 days. She is aware that I googled her and discovered her previous place of employment.. should she google herself and discover this same website... well I can only imagine how utterly horrific it could be if she discovered my further searching and that I had contributed to these discussions... She has never come off as torturous to me... but certainly very intemidating at times. Not anyone that I'd like to cross. I stated that I would discontinue my googling of her and would let it all drop. So I can only imagine how well it would go over should I say "oh and by the way I found this online forum and have read all about this horrific school and these horrific events.. I gave them your name and reconfirmed your association with the institution by the way." yes that would be real swell.. believe it or not I would like to live long enough to graduate lol.
I can assure you that my play will in no way make light of these circumstances and the things that the kids went through. I find it completely sick and disturbing and abusive. It disgusts me and my play will above everything else certainly reflect that. It is highly unlikely that I will even allow my therapist to read the play.
I am sorry if you feel as though I am exploiting this situation in some way or making light of such a terrible occurance.
I already had a first act written for this assignment on sexual abuse.. but I decided to do the extra work and research and switch last moment and pitch this idea to my teacher because I feel that it is much more important to bring this into the light.. I would prefer for my class and school and community to become aware of this. Sexual abuse is widely recognized... this has not recieved nearly the amount of publicity that it should.
I am not a psychologist.. I am not a famous author.. I can not make a large publication of some kind.. I am not a rich survivor that could hire a lawyer and sue... I am simply a high school student that is sickened by this injustice and is writing about it in the only form recognizable in her high school- a play.
Thanks again for all of your help!
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by the way Guest... I couldnt make the torture link work. It told me that the page could not be displayed.
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http://www.heal-online.org/cedu.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/cedu.htm)
Try this, thespian
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Oh yes... One last question if you don't mind... But wikipedia doesn't specify and this is a seriously underpublished offense... But so what were "raps" or workshops on... generally speaking... was it just discussion of life... was it always talking about childhood trauma? Were there different topics each time? Was it always emotionally breaking or were there lighter ones as well?
Were the staff members always seen as superior during these? Well I mean despite the chairs...
I know it was mentioned at some other point in this forum that there was a song "tell it all brother" I believe that was used during a workshop... was it a regular occurance that a song would be played?
-By the way I listened to that song... I intend to incorporate it into my play.. In what way might they use a song? Just to set the tone... or was it part of a brainwashing process... or???
I guess I just do not have a decent understanding about these workshops. I understand that they were miserable experiences... But was it like group therapy? Or group brainwashing? Or group break down?
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Thank you! That link worked.
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It was really very informative... and it explained quite a bit about raps.
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were the workshops like this at carlbrook too? Or only CEDU?
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watch the videos - they'll answer many of your questions
http://liamscheff.com/daily/cedu-documentary/#fn1 (http://liamscheff.com/daily/cedu-documentary/#fn1)
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Wow those videos were really informative... There was an advisor that set a homeless guy on fire! Shouldnt he be... Idk locked up?! Not working with children! ick... The whole I and the Me concept is really rather sketchy... It sounds to me more like they were fostering a community of kids with various personalities... and self hatred... and poor self images.. Im not sure the word "help" qualifies in the least!
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HERE IS A SURVIVOR ACCOUNT OF CEDU, THE MOST INCLUSIVE ONE I'VE FOUND
I was Placed at CEDU Foundation In or about march 1973, when I arrived I had no idea, what so ever that the Dept. of Social Service was "dropping me off" I was told I was just going to go for the day to see if I would like to stay there. Within 1 hour, I found myself standing in a room with Mr. & Mrs. Wasserman, and Michael Allgood. I was told that Michael would be my "family head" and if I had any questions or problems he would be in charge of it all. I then, was taken into a room, and was told to sit in a chair while they cut my hair. They cut my hair to where it was just a few inches short., They took my clothes and only left me with a few pair of pants and tops and sent the rest back with my social worker. The reason I told for this was to "break your Image". I was then taken into a room and a Nurse? examined me , and then I was told to shower. I had never been in any place like this before, so I was already afraid. I was told I couldn't write or see any family members for at least 3-6 months depending on if I followed the rules. I hadnt been there much more than a few hours and I was called into a "Rap" session, there was probably 20 people at least in there, they were all yelling and screaming at each other, and I sat there just startled. All of a sudden Michael Allgood started yelling at me, stating that I was not going to sit in these sessions and not speak, I told him, that this was all "new" to me, and he said if you want to make it here, you will do what you are told, I started to cry, and told him that I didn't want to stay, and he told me that my family didn't want me, that's why they dumped me there, and he said, the only reason why they took me was for the money they would get from the county. He called me a lesbian, at the time I had no clue, that I was, and he said he thought I would learn to like it there real quick. I was only 15 at the time, and just lost my mother, so all of this was pretty scary, considering this was just the first day there. I learned to adjust, to play the game. and prayed that I would not get in Michaels way. he was very verbally abusive with me and it never got better. I eventually somehow, figured out to ask for a different family head over time. I finally got John Stallone, he was basically the closest person there with some sense of caring. I dont recall bad times with john. They had these rap Sessions that would last like 2 days they were called "profeets" there would be a group maybe like 20 -25 people and they would lock you in this room with 2 or 3 counselors, and they would play very Loud music continously, this would go on and on, and they would yell, and tell you how fucked up you were, and you were useless, and would never amount to anything in life, a lot of the kids and adults there were either court placed some private placed, and most of them were drug abusers. I never did drugs, until after I left Cedu. they would continue this until someone would emotionally snap, once you did, they would move on to the next person, once in a profeet they made a black boy wash Michaels feet. Michael thought he was like God , he called him the N word while this person washed his feet. They would accuse the boys of performing beastility acts on the animals, I dont know for fact if that happened but I was told it did as a punishement for the boys. I was blamed for my mother's death. I actually grew up after that believing that my actions as a Teen caused her to die, when in all reality, I was acting out because when I was 5yrs old, i was in a foster home, and was molested continually. I never said anything, until it was too late. We would remain in these Profeets until everyone snapped and I never recall any food in there, we did get bathroom breaks and water breaks. They said the less we had in our bodies made it easier for them to "cleanse" our souls. I guess when you are that young you will believe anything. The Dorm Leaders, were usually someone who had been there for quite some time. Most of the female ones were lesbian. Well, a lot of the girls were Lesbians. That's where I had my first Lesbian experience, with my dorm leader. If you were straight, you could get what they called your "Fucking Privledges" if you were interested with someone at least 6 months, and if you got past that, you would be allowed to have your privledges at 1 year. However, that rule didn't seem to matter with the staff. I know of cases where Rudy Bentz? had his "special" or favorite girls, if you wanted special trips to town, or pribledges you just had to know the right person to get what you wanted. Gay or straight. They had this one punishement called "dishpan Dishpan was for those who either did something really wrong, or if you tried to split, and got caught, or got away and had to re enter cedu, oh, and when that happened that meant the boys got their head completely shaved, the girls hair was whacked, all uneven. I got put on dishpan I think 2 or 3 times, the longest period I was on was for 2 weeks but usually it ws just a 2 or 3 day thing. When you were on dish pan you would work where ever they wanted to put you, I once had to clean all the bathrooms, with a sign around my neck saying " I AM POISON" that was Allgood's doing. When I did the bathrooms I had to use buckets of bleach, and a toothbrush. When someone would have to come use the bathroom, and Mike noticed, I would have to start all over. No one could talk to you and you could not talk to anyone. except family heads or counselors, and only if you were spoken to. The hours were like from 6am to 11pm you had to eat by yourself and quickly at that. there was NO breaks. One Dishpan I was on, I had to take all the trash out of one of those industrial size trashcans, climb in clean it with a tooth brush, then put the trash back in, another time I had to use a tootbrush on all the pool tiles and do the kitchen floors the same way, on your hands and knees. When I was on my last dishpan My hands were cracked and bleeding from all the bleach, and i would have to keep putting my hands in the bleach, I finally just couldn't feel them in the end. After that dishpan I got kicked out, and that was the happiest day of my life. They drove me in the middle of the night to some apt in reche canyon, we were there for about 1 hour, I dont know what they were doing they locked me in the car with a counselor, when they came out they drove me to my sisters in LA and just dropped me off in front of her house and left, it was like midnight. Thank God, they were home. When I was at CEDU Mel wasserman used to send probably like a van load of us down to anaheim, san bernaardino, and surrounding shopping centers, and have us all out in the parking lots approaching people asking them for money. We were told to them that we would be closed down if we didn't raise money for a new fire alarm system. I did this for a few months, we would give them a raffle ticket, to what I have NO clue, but I remember when we got back to the lodge we would have to count up all the money, and I remember it being thousands of dollars, and sure enough we would be out the next day, only at a new shopping center, i remember going close to Los Angeles, and once thought I was so close to home, but I think by that time, I was starting to believe in CEDU. In other words I was becoming like the rest of them....brainwashed. I never even noticed if they had a fire alarm system or not. The worst things I can remember is the verbal abuse, the sex acts, and if you even mentioned it was something that you didn't want to be involved in you were told you would get sent to Juvenile Hall, some faced prison sentences, or they would threaten you with somewhere much worse. The Wassermans would eat in the living quarters at the time overlooked San Bernardino, I remember how they would order steak dinners and we would have to serve them, while we ate food which was donated, from the places we were out begging for money from. This is just a touch of what I went through at Cedu, I know so much more, and went through so much more. I know of one kid who lived in Las Vegas that actually took his life when we went home, because they said he couldn't deal with life anymore after CEDU. They ran CEDU from what I understand a lot like the old Synanon in Santa Monica, CA. In fact some of the older people who were there were from Synanon, and even the counselors, we had one guy who was a Sniper from NYC He was hired as a counselor. Nice Huh? I ended up living with a counselor who was fired eventually, she was the one who turned me out into the Lesbian lifestyle. So much to tell, I could go on and on, this is just minor things. I would really be interested in that documentary, I would think it would be interesting to have someone who was there in 1973 comparing what they went through with the same people all the ways into the late 1980s & 1990s and better yet, find out why these people who are still alive an well are allowed to continue to work and arent behind bars, where they deserve to be for totally destroying kids lifes for the past 30 plus years. I would like to know how they got away with this? I would like to know who is going to help all of these people they mentally messed up? I know my life has never been the same. I cant imagine the younger kids how they must be coping. Please keep in contact with me, I want to see this through to the end!
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HERE IS A SURVIVOR ACCOUNT OF CEDU, THE MOST INCLUSIVE ONE I'VE FOUND
I was Placed at CEDU Foundation In or about march 1973, when I arrived I had no idea, what so ever that the Dept. of Social Service was "dropping me off" I was told I was just going to go for the day to see if I would like to stay there. Within 1 hour, I found myself standing in a room with Mr. & Mrs. Wasserman, and Michael Allgood. I was told that Michael would be my "family head" and if I had any questions or problems he would be in charge of it all. I then, was taken into a room, and was told to sit in a chair while they cut my hair. They cut my hair to where it was just a few inches short., They took my clothes and only left me with a few pair of pants and tops and sent the rest back with my social worker. The reason I told for this was to "break your Image". I was then taken into a room and a Nurse? examined me , and then I was told to shower. I had never been in any place like this before, so I was already afraid. I was told I couldn't write or see any family members for at least 3-6 months depending on if I followed the rules. I hadnt been there much more than a few hours and I was called into a "Rap" session, there was probably 20 people at least in there, they were all yelling and screaming at each other, and I sat there just startled. All of a sudden Michael Allgood started yelling at me, stating that I was not going to sit in these sessions and not speak, I told him, that this was all "new" to me, and he said if you want to make it here, you will do what you are told, I started to cry, and told him that I didn't want to stay, and he told me that my family didn't want me, that's why they dumped me there, and he said, the only reason why they took me was for the money they would get from the county. He called me a lesbian, at the time I had no clue, that I was, and he said he thought I would learn to like it there real quick. I was only 15 at the time, and just lost my mother, so all of this was pretty scary, considering this was just the first day there. I learned to adjust, to play the game. and prayed that I would not get in Michaels way. he was very verbally abusive with me and it never got better. I eventually somehow, figured out to ask for a different family head over time. I finally got John Stallone, he was basically the closest person there with some sense of caring. I dont recall bad times with john. They had these rap Sessions that would last like 2 days they were called "profeets" there would be a group maybe like 20 -25 people and they would lock you in this room with 2 or 3 counselors, and they would play very Loud music continously, this would go on and on, and they would yell, and tell you how fucked up you were, and you were useless, and would never amount to anything in life, a lot of the kids and adults there were either court placed some private placed, and most of them were drug abusers. I never did drugs, until after I left Cedu. they would continue this until someone would emotionally snap, once you did, they would move on to the next person, once in a profeet they made a black boy wash Michaels feet. Michael thought he was like God , he called him the N word while this person washed his feet. They would accuse the boys of performing beastility acts on the animals, I dont know for fact if that happened but I was told it did as a punishement for the boys. I was blamed for my mother's death. I actually grew up after that believing that my actions as a Teen caused her to die, when in all reality, I was acting out because when I was 5yrs old, i was in a foster home, and was molested continually. I never said anything, until it was too late. We would remain in these Profeets until everyone snapped and I never recall any food in there, we did get bathroom breaks and water breaks. They said the less we had in our bodies made it easier for them to "cleanse" our souls. I guess when you are that young you will believe anything. The Dorm Leaders, were usually someone who had been there for quite some time. Most of the female ones were lesbian. Well, a lot of the girls were Lesbians. That's where I had my first Lesbian experience, with my dorm leader. If you were straight, you could get what they called your "Fucking Privledges" if you were interested with someone at least 6 months, and if you got past that, you would be allowed to have your privledges at 1 year. However, that rule didn't seem to matter with the staff. I know of cases where Rudy Bentz? had his "special" or favorite girls, if you wanted special trips to town, or pribledges you just had to know the right person to get what you wanted. Gay or straight. They had this one punishement called "dishpan Dishpan was for those who either did something really wrong, or if you tried to split, and got caught, or got away and had to re enter cedu, oh, and when that happened that meant the boys got their head completely shaved, the girls hair was whacked, all uneven. I got put on dishpan I think 2 or 3 times, the longest period I was on was for 2 weeks but usually it ws just a 2 or 3 day thing. When you were on dish pan you would work where ever they wanted to put you, I once had to clean all the bathrooms, with a sign around my neck saying " I AM POISON" that was Allgood's doing. When I did the bathrooms I had to use buckets of bleach, and a toothbrush. When someone would have to come use the bathroom, and Mike noticed, I would have to start all over. No one could talk to you and you could not talk to anyone. except family heads or counselors, and only if you were spoken to. The hours were like from 6am to 11pm you had to eat by yourself and quickly at that. there was NO breaks. One Dishpan I was on, I had to take all the trash out of one of those industrial size trashcans, climb in clean it with a tooth brush, then put the trash back in, another time I had to use a tootbrush on all the pool tiles and do the kitchen floors the same way, on your hands and knees. When I was on my last dishpan My hands were cracked and bleeding from all the bleach, and i would have to keep putting my hands in the bleach, I finally just couldn't feel them in the end. After that dishpan I got kicked out, and that was the happiest day of my life. They drove me in the middle of the night to some apt in reche canyon, we were there for about 1 hour, I dont know what they were doing they locked me in the car with a counselor, when they came out they drove me to my sisters in LA and just dropped me off in front of her house and left, it was like midnight. Thank God, they were home. When I was at CEDU Mel wasserman used to send probably like a van load of us down to anaheim, san bernaardino, and surrounding shopping centers, and have us all out in the parking lots approaching people asking them for money. We were told to them that we would be closed down if we didn't raise money for a new fire alarm system. I did this for a few months, we would give them a raffle ticket, to what I have NO clue, but I remember when we got back to the lodge we would have to count up all the money, and I remember it being thousands of dollars, and sure enough we would be out the next day, only at a new shopping center, i remember going close to Los Angeles, and once thought I was so close to home, but I think by that time, I was starting to believe in CEDU. In other words I was becoming like the rest of them....brainwashed. I never even noticed if they had a fire alarm system or not. The worst things I can remember is the verbal abuse, the sex acts, and if you even mentioned it was something that you didn't want to be involved in you were told you would get sent to Juvenile Hall, some faced prison sentences, or they would threaten you with somewhere much worse. The Wassermans would eat in the living quarters at the time overlooked San Bernardino, I remember how they would order steak dinners and we would have to serve them, while we ate food which was donated, from the places we were out begging for money from. This is just a touch of what I went through at Cedu, I know so much more, and went through so much more. I know of one kid who lived in Las Vegas that actually took his life when we went home, because they said he couldn't deal with life anymore after CEDU. They ran CEDU from what I understand a lot like the old Synanon in Santa Monica, CA. In fact some of the older people who were there were from Synanon, and even the counselors, we had one guy who was a Sniper from NYC He was hired as a counselor. Nice Huh? I ended up living with a counselor who was fired eventually, she was the one who turned me out into the Lesbian lifestyle. So much to tell, I could go on and on, this is just minor things. I would really be interested in that documentary, I would think it would be interesting to have someone who was there in 1973 comparing what they went through with the same people all the ways into the late 1980s & 1990s and better yet, find out why these people who are still alive an well are allowed to continue to work and arent behind bars, where they deserve to be for totally destroying kids lifes for the past 30 plus years. I would like to know how they got away with this? I would like to know who is going to help all of these people they mentally messed up? I know my life has never been the same. I cant imagine the younger kids how they must be coping. Please keep in contact with me, I want to see this through to the end!
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Lil-T
My brother spent 2 years(give or take) at Rockey Mountain Academy. He knows Grant Price who now runs Carlbrook. His response to me when asked about him was, "The guy was a little faggot".
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Ok, wow.
Parents, conspiracy theorists, all who have posted here: listen. I understand the deep, ethical questions aroused by the methods of the Carlbrook staff. I asked many of them in my time there. I sold weed, did a whole lot of ecstasy, failed out of high school, failed out of rehab, and got arrested all in my junior year of highschool. I went to Carlbrook, understood the program for what it was (a pause in my life which was undeniably detrimental) and miraculously got through with no time in suspension and became one of the "nerds or losers or kids who got sent there for nothing" as referred to by a previous post. Ill advised as that statement is, what the person said is true. The school would not function without student cooperation and "spying". Is that wrong though? Is it wrong to tell a staff member Suzy is cutting in the bathroom again? is it wrong to tell a staff member that students were talking about fucking in the bathrooms? These things that kids try and do there distract them from what they were sent there to be working on. Parents can feel guilt, I encourage mine not to. I got to a very good university, and I hope to go to law school. Please limit speculation as to what actually occurs there, you really do have no idea unless you've been there.
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Ok, wow.
Parents, conspiracy theorists, all who have posted here: listen. I understand the deep, ethical questions aroused by the methods of the Carlbrook staff. I asked many of them in my time there. I sold weed, did a whole lot of ecstasy, failed out of high school, failed out of rehab, and got arrested all in my junior year of highschool. I went to Carlbrook, understood the program for what it was (a pause in my life which was undeniably detrimental) and miraculously got through with no time in suspension and became one of the "nerds or losers or kids who got sent there for nothing" as referred to by a previous post. Ill advised as that statement is, what the person said is true. The school would not function without student cooperation and "spying". Is that wrong though? Is it wrong to tell a staff member Suzy is cutting in the bathroom again? is it wrong to tell a staff member that students were talking about fucking in the bathrooms? These things that kids try and do there distract them from what they were sent there to be working on. Parents can feel guilt, I encourage mine not to. I got to a very good university, and I hope to go to law school. Please limit speculation as to what actually occurs there, you really do have no idea unless you've been there.
Oh yeah, and Tim Brace was a member of a cult who imprisoned, tortured and murdered kids.
Pay no attention to the people saying theywere abducted, held prisoner, and tortured at Carlbrook. Believe me, an anonymous person. After all, what reason would someone possible have to lie to protect this money printing cultic enterprise?
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Okay so I'm curious now... This may sound strange... But did Carlbrook ever encourage meditation? Or perhaps the running through of negative thoughts aloud... or perhaps both? Though each may seem to defeat the purpose of the other...
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Interesting stuff on CEDU etc. I went to CEDU, went to RMA in BF ID (2+ yrs), while T Brace was headmaster, experienced all the stuff discussed in the "documentary", knew most of the people talked about, did "work details", propheets, I&M workshop and Summit, "split" etc, the whole 9 yards. And to a certain extent the facts as told are just a small part of the story. People who "volunteer" information and lambast the schools are the people who feel the strongest about it (by and large), who had "bad" experiences for whatever reason. Most people who went there do not post on message boards or write articles or make documentaries. Most just get on with their lives. Some don't. I haven't read everything on this site but I did know Tim Brace (I was a 16-18 yr old student and he was a ~40 yr old staff member, then Headmaster). My sense from what I've read here (and I've certainly not read all of it) is that most of the negativity comes via 2nd hand sources or public articles or due to some agenda or another or is just trite -- or worse. The Tim Brace I knew was (and probably still is) a pretty good guy (in the sense that I believe he legitimately cared about kids - canNOT be said for many). Maybe some people didn't like him or don't but saying things like "my brother says he' just a ____" or whatever it is - that's just not very descriptive - or meaningful - is it? I saw and heard some pretty weird crap while I was in high school - but you can see a lot worse today on the News. To say with a straight face that CEDU or RMA or Carlbrook (for that matter) is cultish or involved in brainwashing or some big evil conspiracry (more than possibly a form of tuition-level piracy at least) seems a bit left of the point - if not ludicrous. You go in, you come out, you're the same person but with a few more experiences all in all. What a person chooses to do with that experience would seem to be up to them. Some people go to scary movies and see monsters, some see actors in make up. Basically I guess all I'm saying is that there were some screwed up people in that whole game but T Brace was never one of them. I can't speak for everyone but so it seems to me.
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What a person chooses to do with that experience would seem to be up to them. Some people go to scary movies and see monsters, some see actors in make up.
Interesting. So, to be clear, are you saying that a person who suffers from trauma is choosing to do so?
Kind of that whole "I am responsible for what I see." line from the summit?
I find your logic of comparing 2.5 years at CEDU to the experience of watching a 90 minute horror movie to be inherently flawed. Especially since you can always walk out of a movie theater. (Although, interestingly enough, I have always maintained that if there were ever to be a fictionalized film based on CEDU, the only person qualified to really capture the feel of that place would be David Lynch.)
Also, it seems you are conflating the people who frequent forums on this issue to be people who haven't "gotten over it". What is your basis for that observation? Simply because they choose to talk about it? Process it? Do you also feel that having an agenda for putting a stop to the troubled teen industry can be boiled down to butthurt plain and simple? Granted, there are lots of people who still have issues and are working towards closure, (and I personally don't think that's a bad thing) but are you absolutely sure that every single person who chooses to discuss their experience are navel-gazers who pick at emotional scabs? Or is it just people who have been out 20+ years? What is your statute of limitations on that? 5? 10? And if so, how did you come to that conclusion? Was there a study? A control group? (I personally maintain that there *should* be a study, actually. Let's see how "successful" these duck farms really are, once and for all.)
I also call into question your assumption that people who choose not to discuss it have "moved on", whatever that means. Outward appearances and actions do not always belie how someone has processed an experience. I personally feel that people are all over the map on this, whether they are outspoken about it or not, and I would never be so arrogant as to assume where they are at with their experience simply by their decision regarding how they conduct themselves outwardly. Granted, I didnt always have that opinion.
BTW, I was there when you were, during the "camelot" era, and as for where I "am at" regarding that experience... well.. I don't really take offense at people assuming one way or the other with me. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion, of which I care little. Fact of the matter is, the phenomena of "tough love" is fascinating in how it manifests itself, both on a personal, political and sociological level, and well, that is something that's pretty darn interesting in my eyes. Regardless of whether you find your experience positive, negative, or just "meh", you can't deny that it was weird.
As for the Tim Brace issue, I agree that there are a lot of differing opinions on him. I was there when he was headmaster, spent many an hour in his raps, on the floor, he ran my IWTL, etc... My personal impression is that overall, he was far from simply complicit when it came to towing the party line. He was a staunch advocate of the CEDU way, and that, I certainly have problems with. He actively partook in fostering the melodrama associated with the regressive techniques used in CEDU's form of "therapy", whether it be in raps or propheet/workshops. Im sure you can corroborate how raps and such with him often involved running one's anger, and resulted in reducing most participants into a sobbing, weepy mess. Oh, a Tim Brace rap, well, looks like everyone will be "taking care of their feelings". Oh, Tim's running the warm up, most people will be crying like babies after that.
Not sure about you, but I do NOT find that to be a valid form of therapy, and I find it to be counterproductive to any sort of actual emotional development. He is not, and never was, qualified to "treat" any teen, nor assist them with emotional matters, and his opinions on "emotional growth" were as flawed as everyone else's there. Plain and simple, his tactics and behavior were harmful... at BEST.
The fact that he seems like "an ok guy" because he wasn't as confrontational as other staff (and I agree, he was not known for aggressively attacking someone's character) is misleading, because his tactics regarding "therapy" were just as misguided. It's actually rather pathetic that he was considered "ok", especially when it is as a result of comparing him with the brutal staff. Sure, he was "ok" and seemed "nice", but at CEDU, that's not saying a whole fuck of a lot.
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Well stated.
I’ve got to give props to someone who can frame an cogent response like yours that aptly includes suitable application of both the terms conflate and butthurt .
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No. I am not sure about any of it. I suppose I think of the staff about like I think of stockbrokers, misguided & not very bright. I took it all with a grain of salt - and I don;t have a stockbroker now. Maybe it's because I was delivered to RMA by a 6'8" dude in penny loafers, I don't know? I didn't care for most of the staff, personally, and thought the program was silly. I still have friends from that time though (students) - some liked it, some didn't. Some felt violated, some didn't. I certainly don't feel strongly enough to research how other people feel about something that I went through. If you were there at the same time I was then we went through the same thing with the same people and maybe you were scarred by it and maybe I wasn't? Maybe we were in that IWTL together with TB? (I think they called it the Storeroom?) Maybe you found TB an evil nefarious person and maybe I saw him differently - who can say? I thought the program was pretty silly for the most part, and I knew it then, and I think it now - but I was never starved or beaten or whatever. I had to read JLS 1 too many times, hear a crap-pot full of bad John Denver tunes and move some rocks around - live at the "bingo parlor" and dig an outhouse hole, but I got over it. Maybe you're more sensitive than I am or maybe I'm just not in touch with my feelings. My point is that I neither find it negative nor positive, it was just something that happened. Maybe I learned from it or maybe not. And believe me, if I paraphrased anything from the Summit it was strictly accidental - the workshops were w/o a doubt some of the goofier things I've witnessed in my life but they were not "damaging" - to me. Maybe if you are captivated by that sort of thing they could be and I'm not saying you are. I think the staff were mostly just banal and if they suffered from anything it was stupidity more than anything else. There are exceptions of course - somebody was profiting from it after all. But I did not think TB was evil or had some nefarious purpose. DK-B on the other hand. Well I thought that guy was a $%*@!
So you were there, huh, 83-85ish? I had forgotten about the whole Camelot angle - exciting stuff.
My favorite staff member, if I had one, was Steve Kaufman (I think that was his name?). Remember him? Beard, glasses, local. Don;t think he ever really bought into it either, left shortly after I did if I recall?
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And I never meant to imply it wasn't "weird". That was it's saving grace, that you couldn't miss the effin weird - It was bad Stephen King fiction cornfield f**k weird. I knew that when I was 16. I think if you somehow missed the weird, which seems almost impossible to me, then maybe you get messed up or join the staff or something? People did that I guess. But most noticed the weird right off. I split the first half of my second hour and was gone a week there was so much weird. You could smell the weird. It oozed weird. But it was just weird. And weird is funny. To me. I'm not gonna do a study on it or anything so I'll qualify that. I thought it was weird. Some people, possibly, in some research control group may find it normal. But you and I, we can agree: That place was weird. I just didn't find it particularly "dangerous," that's all.
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aah. bingo parlor. you were there before me, a bit. by the time I arrived, the bingo parlor was a girls dorm. no more bingo. I spent quite a bit of time "under the house". One of the few places where it was actually relatively warm. (No I am not a girl, but I was when I was there... long story)
I got there in 87. Still the camelot era. The next phase was "here forever", which happened when I was in upper school (89). Sadly, I was responsible for the eyesore of a poster that ended up on the wall after that staff workshop... the one which covered up "camelot"
You may, however, have known people in the peer group who graduated about a week after I got there. Jackie (barbara walters' daughter) was in it. I believe they were younger students when you left.
but I do know mike parr, (as per your statement regarding escort) although i myself didnt end up a "parr baby", my parents had definitely considered him if they couldnt get me up there by trickery.
steve kaufman.. im not sure I remember him. but then again, there are many I dont remember. I knew two steves, one who got there after you, the other who worked with quest, although when you were there, it might have been challenge. (quest ended up with the farm, challenge moved on to either working in the woodshop with greg springett or the kitchen) steve allman, I think was his name.
If you got there in 83, I am definitely intrigued. You were there right around the time RMA started, shortly after the "magnificent seven" planted roots and built the main lodge. (I think that was 82. Remember all of the photos in the spring lodge?) There are some things I would like to ask you, if you dont mind. Ill send you a PM.
Here's my thing. I no longer begrudge ANYONE who has a differing opinion about their experience than I do about mine. For me, it was traumatic, but thankfully, the fallout was manageable, and I was able to figure things out for myself. When it comes to any people from the CEDU schools, whether they be direct sister satellites or clones, I am in favor of discourse and comparing notes.
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And about T Brace? I wasn't talking about "lots of opinions" of him - I was stating my opinion. I thought he was a pretty decent human being. I don't know him well enough to go farther than that. But do I agree with his philosophy? No. Do I think his intentions were evil or he was trying to emotonally screw with people or was he a sadist? No. He's also not godfather to my kids, if that clarifies...
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Yes, I got there early '83, knew all the 7. I was somewhere around the 30th student I think. There was no new lodge and Mel still lived there when I arrived. All that was there was the old lodge and the Hobbit (at least what it was called then).
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I hope you dont mind me saying this, but you are a serious gold mine! Anything you could tell any of us about the early days of RMA is extremely welcome!
And as for Tim Brace... I have to say... to his benefit.. and even though he has another school that is in the CEDU clone template, that if there were any staff I would feel comfortable really having a serious debate with about the ideology of RMA, it would be him... and maybe Stacy.
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Tell me what you want to know and I'll see what I can remember. I actually got to RMA before Tim Brace come to think of it.
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Tell me what you want to know and I'll see what I can remember. I actually got to RMA before Tim Brace come to think of it.
I sent you a PM about stuff I didnt think was relevant to the boards proper.
I guess my big question is... since you were around Mel (and Im assuming Brigette), what did you think of him/her?
Also.. was there any mention of Synanon?
Did mel run any of your raps, propheets/workshops?
FYI, I knew patrick stambusky. He came back to work with the voyageurs shortly after I arrived.
He's running this school called Monarch now. Rookey was with him for a while until he started his own school. Strangely, patrick changed his last name to Mckenna. Nobody here is able to ascertain why.
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I thought they were both a**heads. The same as everyone else.
Heard Synanon for the first time today.
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Pat was there when I arrived. Didn't care much for him or hang out with him. Seemed sort of a dumb guy. The name change thing is weird.
Mel didn't run any raps or propheets while I was there. Never. Never even sat in one. He ate in the Dining Room some. He watched people work from the porch. He had a brother, Al Wasserman, who came and stayed at the school for about 6 mos. He was friendlier and interesting and he and Mel didn't seem to get on that well - possibly for those reasons. Everybody sucked up to Mel, he mainly tried to act like some shadowy mysterious figure. He was pretty rude. He would occasionally come up to you and just say really off the wall stuff. He did do several General Meetings and he spoke briefly about the way we were about to do a big building project. The staff would occasionally attempt to "interpret" his off the wall remarks for us. Mainly Dan Earle acted as his mouthpiece. He was not a very sociable cat. Big, fat, mustachioed. His wife was friendlier but if you were a kid you had the unmistakable impression that she was in some way defective for being married to that guy. She wore moo moo dresses and jewelry. It was odd to see jewelry then so it sticks with you. My impression was that he was not a very enlightened lifeform. This was the consensus among ALL of the students I spoke to.
Rookey was the kitchen guy. He worked in the kitchen. He started going through raps I think right before I left. He had a moustache too it seems like. That was sort of trendy look I guess.
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I left July 85 - don;t remember Jackie or recognize the other names you mentioned.
Lot of attrition in my peergroup. By the time I "graduated" only 7 from the original 20 or so. There are certainly others who would know more about that stuff than I would. I think the school started late September 82 and they roughed it all winter. Didn't add many students until January 83 probably. I arrived in March. It was very primitive. Broke ground on the new lodge that summer.
If there's anything else you want to know just ask and I will check back.
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I'm not quoting the right
TAC, you have patience I do not. An organization is not going to toture everyone and leave one alone. An organization that has forcing people to participate in torture as its modality is not going to leave one person uninvolved.
So, when i read posts like this, I read "staff" doing damage control, a troll, or some majorly brainwashed cult member. The AARC and Straights has these cases. Accordingly, so will CEDU
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Guest, No one left anyone alone. I split, did fulltimes and wd's, had a rap named after me since I was the only one indicted for 3.5 hrs, I was on bans from all but 5 people my first Christmas, I was never a staff, do not talk to any staff, was never asked to be staff. I don't know if you're reading the same thing. Were you there? I would venture I know more about it from that time, and talk to more people than you do. There were people I knew and still know that thought it was the worst thing ever. They were and are friends of mine - and for the most part they were "responsible" while they were there, dorm heads and "look goods" and left on good terms. I went to Schweitzer ONCE. You may be missing my point - I thought much of it was quackery and UNfun. But not all of it. I talked to two friends of mine from that time last night, one who was kicked out. And funny that both of them looked back on it much the way I do. A screwed up program, a strange philosophy, but not a "bad" overall experience. I invest in the equity markets and comm exchanges for a living and if you think the RMA staff was somehow worse and/or more abusive, hypocritical or dishonest than the misinformers in the financial world then you are naive. If anything it is a microcosm, it's like life man. Yes, it was some screwed up stuff, but people did some screwed up stuff to get there too. There were staff I despised, that I thought were horrible. Specifically, above, I was speaking of one. Much depends on your perspective and the way you deal with it. Yes, I knew people who went there, good friends, who could not deal when they left and got even more screwed up. I also know a lot of very successful people. To throw a blanket over the whole thing and say everyone who went there had the same experience and were tortured and emotionally wrecked by the experience is ignorant soundbite generalization. Experience ran the gamut. Was it great and wonderful and perfect and smart? Probably not. I would have rather gone to the beach for the weekend or seen a T Waits show - but I didn't. I have friends who went there, same time I did, and we still talk, still see them on occasion. I am not speaking for your experience there, if you even went there, I'm speaking of my experience. I suspect no one who knew me there or now would say I was a staff lackey or a troll or particularly that I was or am brainwashed. I suspect they'd say the opposite. My feeling is that you've read some posts or some article from someone else and have extrapolated that into some eaily disgestible formulaic little pill that you've swallowed. Did you even go there? And for the record, there were students there I didn't like either, not just the staff. I realize there is at least a difference in opinion between people, there was then, there is now. Believe me, I have no agenda here. And patience? Is that your thing that you go off on anyone who sees things differently than you? Are you a zealot? I doubt my opinion is THAT far removed from TAC's - but at least we can be civil on the differences.
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Much depends on your perspective and the way you deal with it. Yes, I knew people who went there, good friends, who could not deal when they left and got even more screwed up. I also know a lot of very successful people. ....I doubt my opinion is THAT far removed from TAC's - but at least we can be civil on the differences.
According to you-- a sniveling, trolling moron-- everything is subjective, therefore am I not just as civil as TAC, you failure at life. Perhaps your perspective is just a different than mine, scum-bag.
Or, perhaps reality is not as subjective as you suggest?
Yes, it was some screwed up stuff, but people did some screwed up stuff to get there too.Yes, I knew people who went there, good friends, who could not deal when they left and got even more screwed up. I also know a lot of very successful people. To throw a blanket over the whole thing and say everyone who went there had the same experience and were tortured and emotionally wrecked by the experience is ignorant soundbite generalization.
No one says CEDU emotionally wrecked everyone , people say CEDU subjected detainees systematically to torture. I was not there the same year as you, but have read testimony from people who were, and CEDU was not reworked around YOU, personally. I doubt about your authenticity. I doubt the authenticity of posters behind anonymous internet messages that defend highly profitable cultic organizations.
On the other hand, I have peers who 5 years later describe our program in the same way you do, and also have a weird agenda of insinuatingly “blaming the victims," so I know it can happen. These defenders tortured, and tortured, as much as the next person (as a general rule, they did MORE torturing than the average detainee).
Torture does not cease to become torture if you are not negatively effected by it. Reality is objective. You say you were abducted. You say you were not traumatized by the experience. However, you were STILL abducted.
CEDU is not a "microcosm" of life. Unless your "life" is that of prisoner in a totalist thought reform labor camp. However you want to interpret your past, when quantified by measurements afforded by the Geneva conventions or medical (or even legal) standards, what went on at CEDU was torture.
This Carlbrook monster oversaw abduction, torture, imprisonment however "nice" you claim he was to you personally.
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Am I a failure at life and a moron? How do you know that Guest? Are you smarter than I am - more intelligent, more insightful, more successful, happier, more at peace with yourself? Are you psychic? Wow. And you know more about the school than I do, and I went there - and you've not said if you even did or did not? I snivel? And curious where I defended the school? I attended the school, I haven't defended it. In fact, if anything, I would think I've said the program was pretty goofball. I wrote this all in English.
And I haven't seen anyone else posting on here about this that was there when I was - not that I've seen at least. You are like a guy who knows everything about a book that he's never read - or a cd he's never heard. The difference between you and TAC is that TAC is sane. And from what I can tell, a %$#@ of a lot smarter than you are. You're not even saying anything. You can't even develop a thought. TAC can actually disagree and explain why he disagrees. You might work on that. And plus, TAC was actually there it seems to me.
Next you'll tell me my girlfriend is ugly or that I need a haircut or something. You know a lot of stuff. It's impressive.
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E Adams,
I have some questions for you.
(1) What restraint methods did staff utilize at Carlbrook?
(2) Did staff restrain you?
(3) Why were you restrained?
(4) How long were you restrained for?
(5) How many staff restrained you?
(6) Did staff use excessive force when they restrained you?
(6) Did you witness any emotional abuse, sexual abuse or physical abuse at Carlbrook?
(7) Did you witness excessive force used in restraints towards other students?
(8) What were the consequences for rule infractions at Carlbrook?
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How would I know - I never went to Carlbrook. I never said I went to Carlbrook. I made a comment about Tim Brace, the Headmaster, someone I knew for 2 yrs 24 yrs ago. That is all. Guest would probably know though. He knows a lot of stuff. Hope this helps.
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E Adams,
I have some questions for you.
(1) What restraint methods did staff utilize at Carlbrook?
(2) Did staff restrain you?
(3) Why were you restrained?
(4) How long were you restrained for?
(5) How many staff restrained you?
(6) Did staff use excessive force when they restrained you?
(6) Did you witness any emotional abuse, sexual abuse or physical abuse at Carlbrook?
(7) Did you witness excessive force used in restraints towards other students?
(8) What were the consequences for rule infractions at Carlbrook?
I beleive, these questions were asked with a genuine interest in your perspective and account.
Are you able to answer any of these questions from your experiences of the program you were in?
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E Adams,
Were Caroline Wolf, Steve Rookey, Brett Carey, Lisa Carey, Lisa Sutton, Glen Sutton, Tony Allmaras, Doug Kim-Brown, Randy Eide, Vicki Jones, John Aaron, Ray Kreider or Shiela Clairmont at RMA? I left RMA in 1993.
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Am I a failure at life and a moron? How do you know that Guest? Are you smarter than I am - more intelligent, more insightful, more successful, happier, more at peace with yourself? Are you psychic? Wow. And you know more about the school than I do, and I went there - and you've not said if you even did or did not? I snivel? And curious where I defended the school? I attended the school, I haven't defended it. In fact, if anything, I would think I've said the program was pretty goofball. I wrote this all in English.
And I haven't seen anyone else posting on here about this that was there when I was - not that I've seen at least. You are like a guy who knows everything about a book that he's never read - or a cd he's never heard. The difference between you and TAC is that TAC is sane. And from what I can tell, a %$#@ of a lot smarter than you are. You're not even saying anything. You can't even develop a thought. TAC can actually disagree and explain why he disagrees. You might work on that. And plus, TAC was actually there it seems to me.
Next you'll tell me my girlfriend is ugly or that I need a haircut or something. You know a lot of stuff. It's impressive.
To clarify, I was being facetious. You said that it depends on your perspective whether or not CEDU tortured it's detainees.
My point was objective reality is not “perspective based.” No matter what your “perspective” my calling you an ugly failure at life is not civil. Get it?
However, I would say anyone who shows up at a forum to defend a man who directed the abduction imprisonment, torture, and murder (of the kids he drove to suicide) at CEDU and now Carlrbook, is someone I would call a failure at life.
You claim to be a former CEDU detainee and yet your first post is to defend this staff member...highly suspicious. Even for a "neutral" or positive on CEDU former detainee, that doesn't seem likely, sorry
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Caroline came after me (to RMA), was there when I left, as was Randy E. Ray came about 8 or 9 mos before I left and sat in the I&Me with my peergroup as a participant. Steve Rookey worked in the kitchen. He was the cook. Maybe he sat in a few raps just before I left. Don't recall Lisa or Glen Sutton or Tony A. I think that Brett guy and his wife might have come a couple of mos before I left but don;t recall them very well. Seems like they were fairly young maybe? Don't remember Sheila. John Aaron was at Cedu, not at RMA while I was there. I did sit in one of his raps though so I vaguely remember him. Don't know Vicki. Doug Kim-Brown was certainly there. He arrived about 7 or 8 months after me as I recall. Went through raps propheets and workshops with my peergroup, as a participant. Was running raps and was a family head before I left. He was a piece of work - and I don't mean that in the best sense.
Staff that were there: Steve Kaufman, Rowdy, Joe Sweeney (Well, if you can call him staff?), Mare, Dan K, Bob Silfies, Tom Kray, Ned (something), Barrett (something?), Neil and Debby Weston (who divorced shortly after and she went to Hilltop), etc. I'm sure there were others. Some didn't stay long. S Kaufman left right around when my peer group did - think he had some issues with the program. And Dan & Carmen Earle were there most of the time.
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BP, I never witnessed anyone being restrained or restraints of any kind or staff restraining anyone physically. I never witnessed any physical abuse at all. I am not even going to comment on "emotional abuse" or open that can of worms on this board.
There were "work details", "fulltimes" etc. If you are interested go to the documentary "Surviving Cedu" and watch the chapter on fulltimes - that pretty much sums it up.
And Guest: I get it, you're being facetious. So cool. Good for you, dude. I think you're sort of dull and uninteresting. How about that?
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Caroline came after me (to RMA), was there when I left, as was Randy E. Ray came about 8 or 9 mos before I left and sat in the I&Me with my peergroup as a participant. Steve Rookey worked in the kitchen. He was the cook. Maybe he sat in a few raps just before I left. Don't recall Lisa or Glen Sutton or Tony A. I think that Brett guy and his wife might have come a couple of mos before I left but don;t recall them very well. Seems like they were fairly young maybe? Don't remember Sheila. John Aaron was at Cedu, not at RMA while I was there. I did sit in one of his raps though so I vaguely remember him. Don't know Vicki. Doug Kim-Brown was certainly there. He arrived about 7 or 8 months after me as I recall. Went through raps propheets and workshops with my peergroup, as a participant. Was running raps and was a family head before I left. He was a piece of work - and I don't mean that in the best sense.
Staff that were there: Steve Kaufman, Rowdy, Joe Sweeney (Well, if you can call him staff?), Mare, Dan K, Bob Silfies, Tom Kray, Ned (something), Barrett (something?), Neil and Debby Weston (who divorced shortly after and she went to Hilltop), etc. I'm sure there were others. Some didn't stay long. S Kaufman left right around when my peer group did - think he had some issues with the program. And Dan & Carmen Earle were there most of the time.
Joe Sweeny worked at Rocky Mountain Academy before I left in 1993. I agree with your assessment of Doug Kim-Brown. He suggested I join the military because I needed more structure after graduating RMA. Doug Kim-Brown was aware I had epilepsy before making his brilliant suggestion. Were you referring to Ned Murray?
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Just remember his name was Ned. He literally arrived weeks before I left. Sort of skinny, brown hair, glasses. Don;t know his last name.
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So, when i read posts like this, I read "staff" doing damage control, a troll, or some majorly brainwashed cult member. The AARC and Straights has these cases. Accordingly, so will CEDU
Right, right, because everyone who offers an opinion or point of view that doesnt jibe with the hard left are obviously shills, idiots, staff or the who, right?
And there are rarely ever survivors who are like that, right? Were you on the CEDU boards around 05? It was a freakin circus.
Im as anti-program as anyone else here, and I certainly don't think I have any magic powers of deduction, but it always seems pretty obvious to me when staff and shills are posting. Just check out any of the posts that happened right after the AARC piece came out on TV, or when the whole CALO issue started getting hot. They are rarely specific, always inflammatory, totally juvenile, and for some reason, contain a hell of a lot of grammatical/spelling errors.. even theWho's ramblings are like that... and if the post starts out seeming legit, the conversation quickly disintegrates and it becomes obvious when the poster is a troll.
Based on this, Im not exactly sure how you could possibly think that E_Adams one of these types of folks.
Being consistently dismissive is way too myopic for my tastes, and we may end up missing out on vital information as well as learning about that person's experience. We get plenty of trolls, but they always reek to high heaven of living under the proverbial goat-crossing bridge. If we simply decide to try to shut down anyone here who may not say something we like or agree with, well, who really loses?
Look, Im all for reaming people and having a little fun with those who are total brats, but seriously, do you really feel that this guy falls into that category? Im not sure how you could.
Not sure about you, but survivors, especially survivors who were there when things started, Id like to have stick around. Im all for debate and discourse, that's what it's all about in my eyes, so seriously, fucking pay attention to the post before jumping to conclusions like that and writing someone off entirely, because if we do, we never even get to the point of having the conversation to begin with. (Think about CCMGirl. She totally got unnecessarily reamed here, and as a result, she wrote fornits off.)
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Heh, uhhm.
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well said castle!
I have a few questions adams may want to answer if he feels like it. I am glad that you were not traumatised by your time there.
If you were a parent would you send your kid there?
What specific tools or benefits did you get out of it?
Given that you concede that a lot of their methods are pretty crazy how would you try to provide the same benefits to a person without using such a model?
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I did not intend to comment anymore on this board but 2c, maybe I can try and clarify some things. First of all, I am just some guy that happened to have the fortune and/or misfortune (depending?) of attending RMA for 2+ yrs in the early 80's. I obtained a college degree afterwards, but not in anything REMOTELY connected to psychology or counselling. I make my living in finance and in the equity markets which means that I am in absolutely no way qualified to make any kind of even a blind stab at some sort of curriculum design for "troubled kids". I can only tell you what I observed and what I went through, how it affected me, how it influenced friends who went through the same or similar experiences that I've had, and maybe my opinion which people will no doubt disagree with (here for sure).
Second of all, I AM a parent. I have 3 children. And the short answer is No, I would not send my kids to the place I went. I would hope not to have to even consider sending them anywhere. I cannot foresee or imagine a scenario where I would. I hope I am a good enough parent that they won't have the issues I had - with authority, decisions, etc etc etc.
Well, the last 2 questions are quite large ones - and loaded. The quickest way to answer is to group them together and say that in all fairness I did get things out of the program. Most people I know also got tools or benefits out of the program. The problem is that for some people, due to whatever reasons (but valid ones I would say), the process of getting there was too great of a stress and in the end outweighed the benefit. And I think this is true. It was inefficient to put it mildly. The problem is that if a parent was willing to pay, the school was going to take them, regardless! I don't know that but it would be interesting to see how many potential "wealthy" kids were turned down or denied becasue they didn't fit the program. If you could pay, you fit - that is my feeling. I have seen every kind of turnout too, I watched the documentary (some horror stories there for sure), I've seen some people get really messed up after. It CAN be very intense, too intense, particularly if things are taken personally (which happens, legitimately). And the staff were all over the map - some meant well, some were dumb as crap, some were clinically detached, some were Hannah Arendt-described clerks, some legitimately loved the kids and wanted them to improve - but there were some who were just too far overboard or such preening idealogues that they could see nothing but a rose colored picture, and some were in it just for the money or power or whatever. There was also some weird idolization elements of the director, past directors, Mel, J Lennon, etc. It wasn't a science -- not in the hiring process certainly, not in admissions - and that was obvious. And the program wasn't always uniform. And some of the kids, frankly, were ill equipped to deal with the intensity of it all - some of the stuff was probably just wrong. For some it failed miserably, no doubt. This is due to lots of things, to educational counselors, to uneven staff, to lack of common sense on the part of facillitators, to parents in many cases, to a blind faith in some "system", or what have you. On message boards like this it is often oversimplified but many were complicit: How did some 17 yr old kid end up being "blown away" by bearded men or hiding on the side of a mtn in the first place? So no, I certainly wouldn't have done it the way it was done. So how do you give someone the beneficial tools that some kids no doubt DID receive there without shredding up the rest of them in the process - I have no idea. Maybe you can't. If you had 100 people like me no one would have cried, no one would have copped out, no one would have bought into the program at all. So it sounds contradictory: Did I get something out of it? Yes. Do I know other people who did? Yes. Would I send my kids? No way. It's just not worth the risk. If you're naturally skeptical, have a sense of humor and don't get overly swept away by torrents of emotion then the place was no terror camp. Not to say I never felt any anxiety because I did, but I also figured I could handle anything the emotionally shaky guy in my dorm could. If you are not looking at it farther out, perhaps it was terrifying. So I don't really have an answer to that but I can tell you this: 2 weeks ago someone did call me about their daughter, 14, lots of trouble, out of control, etc, and asked for my advice, what I thought about sending her to some "boarding school". My answer was a question: "Does she have an aunt?" That probably sums up how I feel about these places in general. In my PARTICULAR case, I was not traumatized and am actually glad I went. This fact is in NO way an endorsement. I hope that this is at least somewhat clear to some of the more reasonable people on this board. And please, really, I am not in the mood to argue or name calling, and I am STILL not a staff member, I am NOT compensated in ANY way for typing this (not even by aunts), and I've already gotten the picture quite clearly that I MAY be some type of "subjective" moron so.... thanks for all the love in advance. -E
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My answer was a question: "Does she have an aunt?"
OMG, I so wish more people would do this, and consider having the kid stay with a relative for a while, like they used to do in the good old days. Even Maia talks about this in her book.
If I had been sent to stay with my aunt and cousins in san diego... shit.. i probably wouldnt be on this board. Simply having my cousins around probably would have calmed me down significantly.
Im not boo-hooing about it. Just thinking about how a change of scenery within the family can do a world of difference, if there is a family member willing to help.
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If you're naturally skeptical, have a sense of humor and don't get overly swept away by torrents of emotion then the place was no terror camp.
Did you consider yourself to have been completely honest (or at least, for the majority) with peers and staff. Not an accusation, I'm just curious. I actually concurred with most of this post, and I think some people are better equipped to deal with programs, and I do believe programs can have some benefit (though it depends on the people running it and the staff). I can remember a particular staff member who was pretty helpful and caring and treated me like a human being.
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Thanks for taking the time and trouble to answer thoughtfully Adams. I guess the reason why I asked about what you would do with a kid who was in your shoes is that a lot of people who go through this system claim something to the effect of "well sure their methods were pretty fucked up or intense but so was my behavior". I am willing to accept this i some cases But this to me reflects very much the idea that a punitive approach is the best way. This approach does not really address the reasons behind the behavior which is why I beg this question.
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I appreciate that no one has called me any names yet and appreciate the replies. I've thought about that place and the experience more over the past weekend than I have in the previous 10 yrs and frankly I am surprised I have the opinions that I do.
The thing about those places is that kids behavior does change THERE - superficially, and almost immediately. You adapt for the sake of survival. But that's not a "cure". Thinking about it and speaking to some friends last night it seems (and this is just and observation and not scientific) that most of the people we knew who "looked good" and got really into the program real fast were the ones who had the toughest time later. I did the stuff, participated, but I never "bought into" the "program" - if that's sort of clear? Yes, I was honest (meaning I didn't "lie" but I also used discretion in what I would tell), I copped out in propheets, I ran and cried in the I&Me, etc. But I never flung myself into the deep end like a lot of folks did and I knew it was weird. I knew that sort of stuff wasn't going to happen when I got out. I looked at it like an experience, not as a lifestyle or a philosophy. I think some did. Some tried to fit into that box. I don't know if that's clear but it's hard to explain 2 rather intense years in a paragraph, especially if you type like I do.
There were heroin addicts in my peer group for instance, guys who came cuffed from CYA, mohawks and safety pins and a girl busted out of a drug flop house. They were not doing well before they came. By the end of my stay the kids were getting younger and less "bad". Some you had to wonder: Why are they HERE?? I mean, it seems pretty obvious to me that you don't need to yell the same things at a 14 yr old cute preppy girl who snuck out of her house in a small town in TX and drank her dad's wine that you would to a 19 yr junkie who had lived on the street. The distinction was occasionally blurred. Lines were crossed, a lack of common sense often prevailed. I had problems with that sort of thing. And the hypocrisy. You didn't talk about it but you needed to notice it.
One thing I liked about the place was that the "students" were, for the most part, very bright. They were of above avg intelligence, from varied backgrounds - and very interesting.
And about punishment - nothing was "called" punishment except for maybe Wd's and fulltimes. I guess, yes, the bottom line is that I think some people were better equipped to handle it and some weren't. As a kid you could even see that. But the distinction wasn't made, not by staff or admissions. There was never some Eureka moment where someone said: well, you know, maybe mary shouldn't be here?
The big thing was, like a joke in my peergroup, was something the staff would tell us in raps - if we were defiant or rebellious or wanting to leave or whatever it was: "If you leave! You'll be DEAD in 5 YEARS!!" And the guy next to you, and you can tell, he's thinking: What? For getting kicked out of Country Day School?????
Some of that was absurd. It was just never tempered. Shotguns to kill fleas.
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You adapt for the sake of survival.
word.
By the end of my stay the kids were getting younger and less "bad".
Yes, excellent observation. By the time I was there, most everyone fit into the "hysterical parents sent me here" category, but the people who were at CEDU at its beginnings and through the 70s were more often than not hard core junkies, homeless, and most (at the beginning) were actually adults, same as the people who began going to synanon (then it got full blown culty and had families and square gamers there). Mel then realized what a cash cow he had on his hands and opened up the RS high school.
Not to say punitive techniques and overall new agey dogma would help the original clientelle, but it's harshness was a result of a backlash to the whole hippie movement.
Which proves my point that I have maintained all along... hippies ruin everything.
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I've been following this thread the last couple of days. I was at RMA for about 1.5 years in the early 80s. Arrived after E Adams and left for the next option, a mental hospital, while facing yet another fulltime (my parents considered Provo too). I've been thinking about how parents come here on Fornits to get information. I've actually been thinking about this since I went to RMA, well, probably way before that, when my relationship with my parents deteriorated. (BTW, now it's fine. We all grew up.) And now that I have my own kids, and a husband to parent with, the picture has only become more nuanced.
This is what I would say to those parents. I don't envy them.
Mostly, parents aren't looking at an emotional growth/behavior modification program for their child unless they feel there has been a significant breach of some sort. If you are a parent on the Fornits site, you are likely getting to the end of your proverbial rope. You have exhausted the parenting tools you have. You are discouraged, heartbroken, pissed off and tired. And you want your kid to be/feel/behave better, and you want some time for your other kids, and you want a little peace. Now, not all parents start out with the same tools. My patience may be your permissiveness - for all sorts of things from attention to school work, to drugs, to sexual activity. You may not understand your child. For a whole host of reasons. You may have personalities that clash. And you are trying to balance a whole family's interests. There are vastly different ideas of what (un)acceptable behavior is. Hence entry into programs from a kid that is sent away for breaking into daddy's wine cellar, to the addict that is kidnapped and transported to a program from living on the street. So I would say: does your kid get a choice? Even if it's between two programs - do they have any ownership of the ultimate decision? Make sure they know you love them. Are you sure they know that? And I agree, if you don't alraedy feel way past this point, it's worth trying something like the aunt approach first. A little distance can do wonders.
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There are vastly different ideas of what (un)acceptable behavior is. Hence entry into programs from a kid that is sent away for breaking into daddy's wine cellar, to the addict that is kidnapped and transported to a program from living on the street. So I would say: does your kid get a choice? Even if it's between two programs - do they have any ownership of the ultimate decision? Make sure they know you love them. Are you sure they know that? And I agree, if you don't alraedy feel way past this point, it's worth trying something like the aunt approach first. A little distance can do wonders.
word x2
And the programs provide what seems like a one solution fits all approach. Is your kid a junkie with a record? We're perfect. Is your kid suffering from depression and his grades are slipping? Try us. Is your kid a flaming queen and into wicca? We'll whip him into shape.
Also excellent point about the ownership question. When my parents decided to place me for the first time, I had a say, and I ended up at a childrens home which was, for the most part, pretty cool. The second time? Well, it started out that way, but good ol CEDU explained to them that the only way to get me up there was either by deception or a big fat guy who kinda looked like baby huey knocking on my bedroom door at 5am.
So, yes. BIG FAT RED FLAG, if the place tells you to deceive your child or not keep them in the loop.
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I accept that these places are more traumatic for some kids than others. I also accept that some kids straighten out from sheer fear of going back. (although many say they didnt)Lets face it if you are a 17 year old stoner who does six months there & your parents are genuinely sympathetic when you tell them it didnt help, you are going to be a lot less damaged & more philosophical about it than if you went in for something minor at 14 and were locked away for your entire childhood. But even if you are the older badder and less damaged kid and it did straighten out some of your worst behaviors do you think it is wise for a western democracy to allow families to lock up their more difficult family members? Does the idea of compulsory incarceration (even in a nice jail) without being convicted of a crime worry you?
I can also see how if the approach were not punitive or one size fits all some kids would benefit from some activities that these schools have. I remember an episode of British brat camp with a really smart & insightful kid with an apparently hardcore love of drugs. Her mother wrote her a letter pointing out the effect of her behavior when she is stoned on the family. She made particular reference to the girls many petty legal issues. It did get her thinking. But then like everything they did they took it to a fucked up humiliating extreme & forced her to read it to the other girls until she was a blubbering mess. Moreover another girl got a similar letter about the effect her uncontrollable mental illnes had on the mother. SHe too was forced to humiliate herself & read it publically. The idea of shaming a kid with a bonafide mental illness seemed as stupid to me as yelling at someone for having cancer. But even the kid that made a breakthrough and who had misbehaved did so before they forced her to publically embarrass herself, so it seemed it was a totally unneccesary extra step designed to serve no other purpose than to make her feel like shit.
I also appreciate for many families it is a grave and difficult decision. I also think some are shallow & rich enough to hide the embarrasing kid in a gulag the way most of us throw an ugly clock into the closet. But whether it is the rich asshole or the despearate parent looking for help, it seems to me that in the west we are becoming such a convenience culture that when anyone or think becomes a burden we throw money at it and look the other way.
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2 cents - I will try and be as clear as I can about it, with the certain understanding that some had a different experience than I had (some bad and I will not deny that), but for me and for the vast majority of the people that I know and still speak to that went through the exact same thing that I did, it was not viewed as a torture chamber, gulag, prison, etc. And the people I talk to are largely happy and I would say more successful than most. While it is true that I did not voluntarily go there, and while it is true that I was yelled at and that I moved rocks up hills and down hills, and saw a lot of really "weird" things, I did not feel like I was in any way being tortured. In fact, I laughed while I was there, I had fun, I ate healthy and exercised, I made friendships that have lasted 25+ years, I learned things that I still find value in today. I also disagreed with many things however. I will grant you, it was not perfect, and as I've already stated I would not send my children there today (if it even still existed). But the fact is, when I see people like "Guest" (in particular) ranting about something that is in no way (not in the details or even in the most general sense) at all even remotely like the "program" that I went through I must say that it is a bit baffling. But 2 cents, I would agree with this, that many problems originated when people came to the program that were just not well suited for it - and I think the school is responsible for that, and the educational counselors are responsible for it, and I think the parents did a lackluster job in their "research". But those type situations were not the rule while I was there. It may have become like that but it wasn't the case based on my personal experience.
I've read some other things on this board over the past few days. TAC, psy (I believe it is?) - and I understand what they are saying, I see their side of it, I sense sincerity, I see a point. In fact, I would probably, if we sat down in a room and just talked, get along with them marvelously and vice versa. We would disagree on things certainly, but we could have a sensible debate on anything we disagreed about, and probably laugh at some of the more ridiculous stuff. But there are others who have taken up this sort of conspiratorial crusade and are just firing scattershot at every opinion or fact or story that doesn't jibe with their own preconceived notion. I KNEW Tim Brace. I knew DK-B, I went to CEDU first and split (no one tried to physically stop me by the way), was gone a week, went to RMA, was approximately the 30th student, lived on the campus at the same time Mel did. I did a fulltime, multiple work details, was placed on bans from virtually everyone, was "blown away", went through every propheet, 3 workshops (there was 1 additional ws my peergroup went through between the Values & Imagine - that was then discontinued). I saw many changes and trials and error and a large turnover in staff, and students (particularly early).
And then there are people like "Guest". Guest almost assuredly did NOT go to the place I went to. And yet he has a stronger opinion of it than I do - and his facts are wrong. BAD wrong in many instances. And yet "Guest" accused me of all sorts of crap and lying and gives people shameless advice and has appointed himself an authority on the subject - a subject he knows NOTHING about. Either he is lying, not who he says he is, or he NEVER went there and knows nothing about it - maybe other than some pieces of scrap he picked up here or there and is trying to make a bad quilt out of. All fabricated and simplified. And honestly, I am yet to decipher that brilliant work on "subjectivity" he composed for me. Dizzying stuff. (Off the subject a bit but I wonder if perhaps Guest isn't the "staff troll" - due to mistpealings and ynconsystuncies among other things? Well, actually, it would probably be beyond their capabilities - but if you really wanted to discredit somone's opinion you couldn't invent a better character to do it with than a guy like that.)
Anyway, I will concede that perhaps the place changed, maybe it was COMPLETELY different after I left, maybe it became some terror gulag thought reform mind control place. But my feeling is that would have taken a lot more firepower than what they had when I was around. To a large extent the staff just weren't bright enough or capable enough or creative enough to pull that off. The ones who were (if there were any?) probably wouldn't want to. At least I would hope that would be the case?
However I may seem here to people on the written page, I am not trying to bamboozle anyone - I am neither ugly nor dumb, I am not a great "follower", I am independent minded, a skeptic by nature, I am in a field completely unrelated to the "troubled teen industry". I am just some guy. And a parent. I have no agenda and no motivation other than the fact that over the weekend through some (perhaps fortuitous) turn of events, I found my way to this board. And I posted something solely based on the fact that one of the first things I read was from the friend of a parent asking for advice - and some "raving idiot" who had probably never even met any of the people being discussed flew off on some wild (and very unhelpful I would add) tangent about how Tim Brace was a child killing murderer and a death camp monster (paraphrased, but not far off). My next (and somewhat impulsive) act was to type a quick comment stating that from my experience that was just not the case.
There are worse places than the one I went to. There are better ones I'm sure. I agree with many things people have posted, about secrecy and hypocricy, and I agree that it affected people differently, but if there is a thing that I am really incensed about its by the places that care more about a $ than the kid. There are lots of them.
As a parent, and perhaps something closer to me at this point, is the complete degeneracy and crap in our public system. And I FULLY agree with TAC's comment on hippies -- just as an aside.
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Ok so the word gulag is strong and loaded but prison is not. Regardless of the experience and whether it worked or not if a person is at a place that limits visitors and does not allow students to leave at all or go home for summer or the major holidays and it monitors incoming and outgoing communication then it is incarcerating them not educating them. I cant comment on whether being incarcerated saved you but by any objective measure I could argue that you were jailed.
As to the fact that you ended up being financially sucessful, I am glad. As there have been few long term studies and those that have existed have had an extremely small participation rate I also cant comment on whether you are the norm. But given that to afford the fees your own family would have had to earn a comfortable salary I would say you are part of a wider statistical norm. Most middle class parents produce middle class kids.
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An interesting aspect of the cult of fornits is watching people try to convince program alumni (oh wait, you call them survivors) they were mistreated and abused. Here's some free advice, if you have to convince someone they were abused, then it's probably safe to say they were never abused. The fornits definition of abuse is so watered down you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wasn't 'abused', program or not.
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HAMLET:
.....What have you, my good
friends, deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you
to prison hither?
GUILDENSTERN:
Prison, my lord?
HAMLET:
Denmark's a prison.
ROSENCRANTZ:
Then is the world one.
HAMLET:
A goodly one; in which there are many confines,
wards, and dungeons, Denmark being one o' the worst.
ROSENCRANTZ:
We think not so, my lord.
HAMLET:
Why, then 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either
good or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
ROSENCRANTZ:
Why, then your ambition makes it one. 'tis too
narrow for your mind.
HAMLET:
O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count
myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad
dreams.
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And I FULLY agree with TAC's comment on hippies -- just as an aside.
Ah, but therapeutic communities as a modality for managing group behavior far predates the 1960s.
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And 2 Cents - I must say I agree with you about the 14 yo's. Even while I was there, especially near the end, there were kids coming who were around 14 - like freshmen age. That was way too young for the program (my opinion). My feeling was that the parents, if they're sending off their 14 yo, what is wrong with you people? And they weren't "bad kids" some of them. And I wonder: what was KNOWN about the school on the outside that that could happen, how was it pitched, how informed were parents - and educational couselors? Did they get kickbacks? I was "sent" there, at least in a round about way, on a recommendation by Precilla Blake, an "educational counselor" in Atlanta. I would be VERY surprised if she had EVER been there. I am almost positive she had NOT. That seems ethically wrong, at least questionable. Many people were sent by her, many, and to both CEDU schools. She probably earned a nice living, she and her cohort LB, for shipping kids there. I wonder - what was her reward? But the school should not have accepted many of the kids who came. That's just my feeling. I know people who finished the program and THEN had to go to a regular high school for a year, or two years. I just can't imagine how effed up that would have been. So I agree with you. Luckily, despite the fact I had a 10th grade education (almost - and no academics while there) I was able, due to a high SAT's (thanks in NO part to my education from ID) get into pretty much every place I applied - hell, I was even offered academic scholarships. That was true for several in my peergroup, but I believe it did tail off markedly later on. But the age thing, and the people accepted, that was just something that was hard to ignore. And I would certainly agree that it was a HUGE negative for the "program" - AND for those kids. I don't know where the hammer should fall on that, but on someone (Admissions, owner, Edu Counselors, Parents, etc). So several someones probably. There were exceptions though even to that - a girl in my peergroup for instance, very bright, 14 when she came, had only finished most of 8th grade before she got there, and went straight to college right out of the place - think she made a 1200 or so on the SAT and don't think she suffered at all due the lack of academics (nor did I, nor did MOST others I graduated with - that I kept up with anyway). In fact, when I was there I was under the impression that that was pretty much a prerequisite, that you had to be bright and/or academically prepared for college before you arrived -- but maybe not?). If that was the case it assuredly changed. Anyway, I've heard other people talk about the "poor" academics (understatement) but my math credits consisted of me and a dude from Orange County building a f**king hay feeder (it had angles in it). And I have no clue where my English credits came from. History credit came from (I suppose?) Ishi - or maybe the L&C Expedition? So perhaps it was some kind of greediness and bald money grab that followed the taking EVERYONE paradigm shift that ended up in the final analysis taking it all down, folding the joint up -- but I couldn't say other than that bit of speculation.
And I meant I agree with the "hippies" comment, generally - as an aside - in a manner not necessarily relating to the general conversation - not as relates to therapy or any of that business ---- just as an overall comment.
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you are going to be a lot less damaged & more philosophical about it than if you went in for something minor at 14 and were locked away for your entire childhood.
I think I should probably chime in and contest this. I did my time at a childrens home before I went to RMA. and with the exception of about a school-year respite between the two places while living with my father (and what a joy that was, let me tell you ::)) I spent my entire teenage years, from 14 to 19, in some facility.
I dunno, I think I can be pretty philosophical about it. I'm often surprised when people tell me my life has been hard. (I prefer to think of it as "interesting".)
Im not taking this comment personally, not at all. I just think that even though formative years can really affect a person, that doesn't mean they have lost the potential to unfuck themselves.
Nothing against you, my2cents. You've always come across as insightful in my book. I guess my point is that, as misanthropic as I can be sometimes, I've learned to have a bit more faith in the human soul than I used to. People can be tough motherfuckers, capable of exorcising even the most formidable demons. (just ask my fiancee.)
Anyone who has been through something traumatic and difficult should be considered a survivor, regardless of their opinion on said experience. The only prerequisite is that we are all still here... because there are many who are not.
So.. a shout out for all who made it... and also for all who did not, (for WHATEVER reason.) :cheers:
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An interesting aspect of the cult of fornits is watching people try to convince program alumni (oh wait, you call them survivors) they were mistreated and abused. Here's some free advice, if you have to convince someone they were abused, then it's probably safe to say they were never abused. The fornits definition of abuse is so watered down you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wasn't 'abused', program or not.
I am not trying to convince anyone that they were abused or that i know better than them what their experience was. But you can be philosophically opposed to something because by any objective measure it is not a good idea without being a cultist.
Adams if you don't think rma was incarcerating kids how would you define this? If you have no access at all to the outside world that is not closely monitored how is this not incarceration?
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Parent considering sending child to CB and from the diatribe on this post there are some negative subjective comments of which some cautionary issues were raised and appreciated and then there were some that are not helpful. Any comments form past/present students or parents?
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Dad, is that really you? Why wasn't mom ever good enough for you?...................... :suicide:
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Parent considering sending child to CB and from the diatribe on this post there are some negative subjective comments of which some cautionary issues were raised and appreciated and then there were some that are not helpful. Any comments form past/present students or parents?
Feel free to email me with your questions.
carlbrookdad[AT]yahooDOTcom
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An interesting aspect of the cult of fornits is watching people try to convince program alumni (oh wait, you call them survivors) they were mistreated and abused. Here's some free advice, if you have to convince someone they were abused, then it's probably safe to say they were never abused. The fornits definition of abuse is so watered down you'd be hard pressed to find someone who wasn't 'abused', program or not.
I am not trying to convince anyone that they were abused or that i know better than them what their experience was. But you can be philosophically opposed to something because by any objective measure it is not a good idea without being a cultist.
Adams if you don't think rma was incarcerating kids how would you define this? If you have no access at all to the outside world that is not closely monitored how is this not incarceration?
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:bump:
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I went to Carlbrook what do people want to know ?
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Anybody interested in Carlbrook please visit the site http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=121154957908461 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=121154957908461). It is a public facebook forum that discusses Carlbrook and in which people are not anonymous, thus seeks to eliminate some of the more colorful and less productive aspects trends that occur on this one. If anybody is interested in documenting what went on at Carlbrook and taking it beyond the internet (not necessarily to the courts but gaining more legitimacy for our concern) I am attempting to collect sworn affidavits about the events that went on that aim to capture the truth. If you have told the truth you can use the accounts you've already made on this site and have them notarized. It is relatively easy to do this at a bank. Collecting affidavits of what went on there is important because obviously the extreme level of discontent coupled with severity and volume of accusations merits at least some sort of review by a state agency, the courts, or a specialist in mediation/arbitration. Tell the truth and don't exaggerate in any affidavits or you will be subject to perjury. You are also potentially sacrificing anonymity. You can either post your account on the facebook website or you can send it to my e-mail, [email protected]. I personally am glad that I went to Carlbrook in the long run. Less because of what Carlbrook did but because I did need a change of environment. There are good people there and it saddens me that their employment may be threatened by irresponsible and reckless decisions of their superiors. I do honestly believe every single person, aside from maybe one or two was convinced that they were helping us. However, this issue is bigger then whether you liked Carlbrook or the people there. This is about what is acceptable to do to people, no matter what they have done, against their will. This is about the type of breakdown that happens in many organizations that suffer from a closed, secretive management. There were several things that were unacceptable, regardless of your experience.
What was unacceptable was that Grant Price and others who ran groups and made explicitly "therapeutic decisions" has no formal training, education or certification to be providing mental health services (which is exactly what running a group therapy is doing). Carlbrook is not held to any standards in the provision of such services and that is a problem. There are a reason standards and regulations exist in this field (even if they have problems of their own). I think even those who cherished the experience realize that a lot of what went on was not OK and though intentions may not have been malicious by any party, kids were hurt and traumatized by the purposely constructed environment of acute stress and anxiety. Even if you could "take it" some couldn't. People are different. A one size fits all approach of breaking people down and building their identity back up may be useful in forming a cohesive military unit but it is not in treating kids for problems that in many instances are related to stress and anxiety in the first place. Creating an environment with the level of intensity and stress that Carlbrook did obviously will have different effects on different types of people. The degree of emotional invasiveness can also not be underestimated. Forcing people to disclose things they don't want to is simply unethical. Plain and simple. I see this as not an issue of whether or not you liked Carlbrook or certain people there. I see this as an issue of Carlbrook making egregious and harmful administrative errors and being held accountable like any other organization that provided you sub-standard services. If Johnson & Johnson sells defective Tylenol, like they did, they are held to account. Carlbrook purposely humiliated kids, engaged in arbitrary and bizarre punishment and the therapeutic relationships and incentives are certainly highly unethical if not illegal. I would like to know for certain if they are and what potential damage might have been inflicted. I would like to know if Carlbrook gave kids Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome which is a condition that worsens with age. I personally am not OK with so much of what went on at Carlbrook and think that a lack of accountability for past events or sweeping what happened "under the rug" would set a terrible precedent and would only encourage others to provide even worse services to kids. Carlbrook is attempting to legitimize and dilute a form of treatment that has been roundly rejected by medical professionals, the courts, and state agencies. Please join me in writing and notarizing an affidavit.
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I found this article in the Daily Mail. It is about a so-called superwoman becoming a loserwoman:
Multi-millionaire superwoman Nicola Horlick: The agonising day I let a 'Child Whisperer' into my home... to take my daughter to a US boot camp (and why her teenager Antonia says she was right to do it) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2530419/Multi-millionaire-superwoman-Nicola-Horlick-The-agonising-day-I-let-Child-Whisperer-home-daughter-Antonia-US-boot-camp.html)