Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: exhausted on December 25, 2006, 06:58:33 PM
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Christ :o
Please people, believe me when I say social services are extremely stupid, badly run, disorganised and this would be the dream answer to 'how to deal with kids who have been allowed to behave like thugs' also bear in mind, the average social worker is aged around 20 years old. *sarcasm intended*
It's scary that the British youth are really out of control due to their 'rights' and the fines and arresting of adults who dare challenge these kids' bad behaviour, more scary that is that this would, in 99% of cases be the 'answer', because we as a nation don't know what to do with the out of control youth we have created, I can see the government taking this as a deal not to be missed rather than admit their own stupid rules didn't work.
So Kay has been in a dilemma. His business is expanding, and he is turning his attention to the UK, for he believes there is a large untapped market of British parents who would ship their children straight off to Jamaica if only they knew about Tranquility. The British government, too, he hopes, might send him children in its care. 'If social services was interested, at $2,400 a month I bet they can't offer our services for that. (NO they can't you piece of shit & you know it) :flame: 'What happens inside Tranquility would be illegal on British soil, but the facility falls under Jamaican jurisdiction and parents here are as free as Americans to send their children where they like. A spokesman for the Children's Legal Centre in the UK confirmed, 'I can't see anything in the law that would stop a British parent from sending their child there. It is appalling, but it is down to the Jamaican government.' And what incentive have the island's authorities to intervene? National attitudes to child care are not famously progressive, Jamaican children aren't involved and Tranquility is a major employer generating tax revenue. It's easy to see why Wwasp locates facilities abroad in developing countries.
Watch this space, it won't be the choice of the parents before long, it'll be the choice of the social services and there will be nothing the parents can do about it
The rest of the article (grim grim grim) ......http://www.nospank.net/tranq.htm (http://www.nospank.net/tranq.htm)
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Not fucking happening.
Seriously, it's just not. Social services is not going to start this shit. Trust me on this. There's a lot of reasons but the big one is they're not that fucking insane.
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Yes, yes they are :(
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I was about to agree with milk but after further thought , I think it is possible.
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You KNOW Dr Evil....social services would do just about anything not to have to actually deal with children who need help
Suffer little children and all that
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Exhausted is right, I KNOW it is possible. And Exhausted knows I don't always agree with her. But I have always UNDERSTOOD her.
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The Observer, June 29, 2003
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The Observer, June 29, 2003
There was a lot written that day? And it was 2 and a half years ago
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I know that parents in my country have been punished when they had sent their children to the far east. We don't want suicide bombers back.
I am not sure if the child protection laws are any good in England. I had found this article about english parents shipping children of to casa and high impact.
http://tinyurl.com/y3924h (http://tinyurl.com/y3924h)
http://tinyurl.com/ua3n2 (http://tinyurl.com/ua3n2)
Casa was child abuse according to the mexican authorities but were the english parents prosecuted?
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So are you saying that the UK actually holds parents accountable for child abuse if they send their kid to an abusive facility? Because that is simply a step in the right direction. This is not true in the US, there is no precedent for it as far as I know. The ignorance defense works like a charm.
As far as the rest of the world starting to send kids to WWASPS. Why not, the americans are not unique in their ability to find ridiculous ways to hurt other people in the name of righteousness.
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No parents in the UK can ship their kids anywhere they like without consequence, if they were to do to their children, what TB does to their children, in their front rooms, they would be jailed for sure, but as no-one can see it going on it's okay for it to happen at TB
What I am atlking about is social services actually not being able to cope with tearaway teens, they have far too many rights in this country, so they will, I can assure you, they will send them to TB at that price! It's far cheaper than sending them to juvy prison or spending resources on therapy, social workers, children's homes etc
it costs roughly £1500 a week to keep one prisoner in jail!
They will do it if it's offered and that's what TB are loking to do - there's a gap in the market and they intend to fill it!
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I think you read me wrong
TB are going to approach social services to get themn to pay for our tearways to go there!
Social services are so underfunded,under resourced and so totally useless that they will pay for kids to go to TB at the price TB are prepared to offer it for......it won't be the parents decision, it'll be the decision of social services, they'll make the kids go, not do any research and then there's no come back on the parenst at all, because they didnt send them there in the 1st place, social services did
I can see it happening, I really can
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I would see it as a combination of both.
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I would see it as a combination of both.
Um...you see what as a combination of both what?
sorry you confused me
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I would see UK kids being sent to TB as a combination of being sent by their parents and social services. Sorry Exhausted, I should have made a more clearer posting.
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Ok...I think UK parenst already do send their kids there, without any action being taken, but for social services to see it as a quick fix, out of our hair thing, is very very scary indeedy
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Agreed. Let's just hope our fears do not become reality in regards to the UK social services.
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I thought that the guardian expose of TB a few years ago largely blew things for WWASP in the UK. I would be more concerned about brat camp
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I have working against WWASP and Aspens expansion into Europe for some time.
We are some users in Danish forum which works at different front. In the old days we had institutions which were exactly as bad as TB. On Sprogoe - an island which now is used a part of the Great belt brigde, we had a place for young women which were sexual active at a very young age. A terrible place which were shut down around 1960. You can not name a kind of restraints, they did not use.
We do not want to reintroduce such places for our youth in Denmark or abroad. Our method is strict supervising and checkup on the places. All things regarding placed children has to be writen down and incidents which involve use of restraints has to be reported to autorities outside the facility. Long-term placement are under supervision from policians - not therapists, which can be paid off by the facilities.
My my opinion our biggest threat are Aspen. They use carefully edited TV-shows in order to show that their programs seems to work. Of course Brat Camp 4 backfired on them and the US version was something they wished that they never should have done. But the strategy is in place.
They also have a show called: "I know what you ate last summer" feuturing weelspring camps and "Britians youngest boozers" feuturing SUWS of the carolinas (SPOILER: It did not work. The poor girl (Sherrie) ended up at Academy at Swift River where she is locked up until they can get her to say some positive thing about the programs to yet another TV-show. see: http://www.aspeneducation.com/news-trevor.html (http://www.aspeneducation.com/news-trevor.html))
WWASP has not entered the TV-business. They work in the dark, because their programs are purely based on making money. They place their facilities in places where they are the largest employer in the area, making the local community dependable of them. The local staff just have to look at the paycheck before they shut their eyes.
Aspen of course do also make money, but I think they have hired people on the ground which thinks that they do these children a favour. The local staff can not see the big picture, so they are motivated to work with the children. However, that does not exclude the possibity of abuse. It minimize it.
Europe is not US. Of course we are also double income societies. Of course we also have problems with parents that lack communication with their children. But we generally stops when it comes to locking children up because they are not entirely our image. Aspen have realised that. That why they tried with "Family brat camp" aka Brat Camp 4. We are used to talk within the family when we have a problem. Now Anasazi has the task. Because grown up adults can leave an abusive program, they will try to create a 21-day program instead of a 42-day program.
Although I am against programs, I can see promising things, if a family program can work.
Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brat_Camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brat_Camp)
http://www.twentytwenty.tv/production.aspx?ID=61 (http://www.twentytwenty.tv/production.aspx?ID=61)
http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/alcoholics-anon ... ntary.html (http://www.aa-uk.org.uk/alcoholics-anonymous-reviews/2005/10/britains-youngest-boozers-documentary.html)
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You mentioned that the brat camps were a PR disaster. Why? was there a backlash. Was this the same in the US?
it is comforting to see that Great Britian has taken up this reality TV trend of laughing at and exploiting social groups with no power! Just think today it is Fat kids tomorrow they could do it with the mentally retarded!
:flame:
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BT's mom pulled her family because the wilderness was too hard on her - not on her son. (Her son was improving!)
AK's parents pulled their daughter from the course, Aspen had recommended after the family program, because she claimed abuse. Of course such claim would be regarded as manipulation in a normal situation, but because the parents just have been at the family camp, they had seen what the staff are willing to do and believed their daughter even though the claim was false. (Parents are not supposed to know about what is going on in the programs until they have paid. They can always be sorry afterwards for the rest of their lives.)
It was clear that it was the isolation from the normal daily life, that meant a lot for the two other families. Their problem was that they just had not made time to talk undisturbed in an isolated environment before.
I will claim that 60-70% of the clients in programs could benefit from a family camp. In half of the cases, the therapist would not even be needed.
Being force to spend time together, solving problems together, no interference from the outside world will solve the fundamental problem with teenagers - communication.
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The application for Brat Camp 5, which is apparently filming now.
Parent?s first name (*)
Parent?s last name (*)
Parent?s address (*)
Parent?s postcode (*)
Parent?s E-mail address
Home Telephone Number (*)
Mobile Telephone Number
How many children do you have?
What ages are they?
Which child is the main problem?
What is the date of birth of the problem child?
Name and address of each child?s school or college
Are the parents still together and interested in applying?
Are you: Single Married Divorced/Separated With a Partner
Have you any step or adopted children?
What are the parents? occupations?
What is the household?s annual income
Please give the contact details for each child e.g. mobile number
Have the children got their own cars? Yes No
Have the children got girl / boy friends?
Do any of the children usually stay out late?
What are the children?s ambitions
Which 5 words best describe each of your children?
Which subjects are they studying or what occupations do they have?
Have any of the children been excluded? Yes No
Describe the family relationships
How would you rate the controlability of your children?
1 = Easily controlled 10 = Impossible to control
What do you argue about and how often?
How bad are the arguments?
Describe your relationship with your children
Do your children behave violently?
Have your children ever stolen anything?
Do you argue about drugs or alcohol?
Have any of your childen ever run away? Yes No
Have your ever sought professional advice?
Do any of your children suffer from any mental illness?
Are your children on any medication?
Do your children have a history with the police?
If required, will you be able to spend up to 3 weeks in America? Yes No
Filming is likely to take place towards the end of 2006 and will require all the family to be available. Is this a problem? Yes No
Have you or your family watched Brat Camp before?
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EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES MONITORING
This information will be treated in the strictest confidence and will be used only for statistical monitoring. It is not part of the selection process.
Family Ethnic Origin :
Asian / Asian British
Black / Black British
Middle / Near Eastern
Mixed Ethnic Group
White
Black Other
Other (please specify)
Disability
Do you consider yourself or any of your family to have a disability?
YES NO
If yes, which of the following descriptions best describes the disability?
Visual (NOT including wearing glasses or contact lenses)
Co-ordination, dexterity or mobility
Mental health
Speech
Learning Difficulties
Hearing
Combination of above or other physical or medical conditions - please specify
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CLICK ON THE SUBMIT BUTTON OR PRINT THIS FORM AND RETURN IT TO THE ADDRESS BELOW.
Signed _______________ Date_______________
NOTE : Please note that there are 5 questions that require answering on this form (*). If you submit this form with one required field empty then all your answers will be lost.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brat Camp Applications,
Twenty Twenty Television,
Suite 2, Grand Union House,
20 Kentish Town Road,
London NW1 9NX.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information on this form will be used to process your application for the programme provisionally entitled ?Brat Camp 5?. At your request your name, address and telephone number can be passed on to other Twenty Twenty Television productions for consideration, otherwise all details you have given us will be destroyed.
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Thanks
Signing up as I type :P
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You do realize if they fuck up and YOU get on, you're gonna have to say fornits on-screen and point out any programmie confrontational bullshit they try, right?
:rofl: be sure to ask for credentials if they try to cow you or humiliate you on camrea.
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Can you imagine someone from fornits being on that?
they would hate me being there, constantly discussing what goes on in programs with other parents - I'd be the 1st to be booted out or they may even send me to wilderness until I buy into the program :o
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:rofl: :rofl:
Frankly I'd hate your only american experience to be a fuckin' PROGRAM, I mean theres a lot more to this country than our toughlove idiots... they just happen to be in charge is all.
Still, you're welcome to stop by god's waiting room (Florida!) :lol:
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Niles, would you kindly stop promoting the idea that the programmies are in charge of jack shit?
Even GWB couldn't keep Mel Sembler on as ambassador.
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Tufflove? people are LOBBYSTS and the fucking lobbies decide policy moreso than the politicians... who just do what the lobbies want.
Why do you think we have so many drugtests? It makes a KILLING for lab companies.
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Thanks
Signing up as I type :P
http://www.anasazi.org/press-12.html (http://www.anasazi.org/press-12.html)
Please notice, that it is now a 21 day program. Beware, that there will be lack of food, if the use their normal system. That is how Anasazi work. You are given food for a period (Just enough to survice). If you calculate the food intake wrong, they adwise you how to eat plants and bugs in order to survive.
However, most humans would survive 21 days under these conditions without permanent damage. I am not sure that it would be the case in a 42 days program. (A special diet for years afterward may easen the problems.)
The system is designed to make you think about food all time, so you don't think on drug, alcohol and sex. With all those bad thoughts gone, they can easy manipulate the behaviour.
From http://www.nospank.net/bacon2.htm (http://www.nospank.net/bacon2.htm) :
Deep in a ravine slicing into the parched uplands of central Arizona, an alligator lizard scurries across a boulder in the withering sun. With a lightning-quick lunge, a big, gawky 16-year-old plucks the reptile from the rock and clutches it in his thick fingers. "This is the tenth lizard I've caught," says Craig, beaming, his cherubic face smudged with soot. Then he slices off its head, pops it into his mouth, and gulps it down.
Craig is enrolled in a nine-week treatment program for troubled adolescents run by the Anasazi Foundation, a nonprofit corporation based in Mesa, Arizona. He's currently camped beside a rock-choked creek with three other wayward teenagers and their three college-age counselors. Some 40 other Anasazi students and their keepers are sprinkled among the adjacent canyons.
and
The daily ration of 2,000 calories is extremely lean, and if a kid consumes it early in the week, he or she has to subsist on wild plants, lizards, and bugs. The Anasazi students I met looked healthy, but food monopolized their fantasies
Just so you know what you are going to be put up for. But I am glad that a parent like you would put herself through such an ordeal for her children. That is love. Sending a child to wilderness therapy alone is not.
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AKA more of the same using the "wilderness" environment to get away with not feeding them to create austerity to stress them for easier brainwashing.
Now HOW is this legal, again? You can't do that shit in a fucking prison full of murderers!
BTW, its only love if somehow the parent suffering helps the kids, but it does not, and the kids suffer with the parent... so then its just abuse with masochism. Er...
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I don't need to go to a program to suffer to help my kids.....I am doing that staying at home!
I'd be quite happy for someone to hand me a tazer gun, that way i could zap my kids into submission - no ones going to carry on with the same behaviour after being tazered a few times right?
A cheap alternative to program abuse, stay indoors and dish it out yourself :lol:
By the way, I don't want to speak too soon, but my boys are starting to come in at night and are even pulling their weight a little, although they are actually coming upstairs after telling them several times, still whinging and moaning that I want them to go to bed, they are coming round to the idea that they are going to go to bed regardess, we've been spending a lot of time together, everyone's been coming in for meals, we've been sititng at the table together eating, talking, sharing our days stories and even sharing a joke or two
This may seem like little things to you guys but it is actually a big big major difference to how it was - small improvements, but improvements nonetheless, I want to keep this up until it becomes comon practise for us as a family and then move on to other difficuties until they become par for the course too - long may it reign
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The batteries would wear out, you would most likely relent after hearing a blood curdling scream from your own child (as you're clearly not program parent material...) and then they'd turn it back on you, or just hit you.
Shit, I would! And I doubt you'd want to know how creative I know how to be with electrostim :rofl:
But yeah, to me, a family coming together and someone practicing a little "mom-fu" as someone here says, and showing some confidence, is a very good thing. Broken families hurt people for a long time in a lot of ways, and not just immediate emotional ones.
I'd know. Mine is.
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I'd be quite happy for someone to hand me a tazer gun, that way i could zap my kids into submission - no ones going to carry on with the same behaviour after being tazered a few times right?
Thin ice, lady.
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You know what the real irony here is?
Parents don't need to send their kids away, use a stun gun on them, or starve them into compliance.
They simply need to remind their kids that IF they get sent to a wilderness therapy program or one of the BM warehouses, or therapeutic boarding schools, they could come out WORSE than when they went in because of the abuse.
That's usually all it takes to scare kids into walking a straight line until they are old enough not to have to worry about being MOMMY or DADDY mandated into an abusive program/school.
Trust me, most kids don't need to be sent away and those that do, ultimately find their way into treatment one way or another. The best thing a parent can do is love their kids enough to go the extra mile with them. Being a kid isn't easy when your parents aren't emotionally mature enough to be a parent. Kids want rules so they have some sort of basis for pushing the envelope. That's normal teenage behavior. Kissing mommy and daddy's ass as a means for avoiding incarceration in a private lock-down facility isn't. It's proof positive that the parents are control freaks, IMO.
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I never wanted rules, I still don't... I want to get out and do stuff but obligations and responsibility prevent me from doing so.
Speak for yourself!
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Let me better clarify "rules".
Kids want structure in their home lives, not chaos caused by out of control parents. Rules are part of a structured home life. Curfews being the one rule that most often comes to mind. Instead of obeying their curfew on Friday night, the kid parties into the wee hours with his friends and pays the consequences later. That's the way it worked in my youth. I looked forward to dinner with my folks and then sneaking out to party with my buds after I did my homework and any chores I had to do. I knew I was breaking "the rules" but hell, a kid's gotta do what he's gotta do. Somehow I made it through adolescence without driving my parents over the edge or ending up in one of these hellhole programs. Guess I just knew how to play the game without tripping the wire, I don't know. But rules (structure) as opposed to chaos caused by out of control demanding bully drug abusing parents or worse, indifference caused by parents who are not involved in their child's lives, is what kids need and want in my experience. I'm probably not expressing my opinion very well, maybe someone else can explain what I mean?
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I had a set of clingy parents who treated me like I was about 10 years younger than I was and had to constantly just give them lip service and go out and "grow" and "thrive" and "spread my wings" and "develop" in spite of them, instead of becuase of thier rules to give me 'structure'.
And, go figure, I can set up rules for myself on my own surprisingly well! I dont drink too much, I don't speed when I drive, I dont drive stupidly, I don't waste money.
Ho hum...
Don't speak for everybody :P
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Well, I can see your point Niles. Clingy parents who insist upon infantalizing (sp) their children are really in need of counseling themselves. It's emotional abuse, IMO. I am speaking for myself, as I knew a kid whose parents wouldn't let him get a driver's license until he was 18 and in college. Fucking ridiculous, if you ask me. My point is based on my own experience counseling troubled teens, most of them expressed a longing for what they considered to be a more structured family life. It wasn't the rules they objected to. It was "chaos" and feeling emotionally neglected. Sorry if I offended to, it was not my intention. I won't post any further on this topic as I think I have said what I wanted to say.
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Not everyone is the same round hole so don't force round pegs?
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. I am speaking for myself, as I knew a kid whose parents wouldn't let him get a driver's license until he was 18 and in college. Fucking ridiculous, if you ask me.
My children won't drive until they are 18. That is not my decision. That is the law. We have chosen to introduce sex and alcohol before we give people the right to drive a car.
Sex is legal from an age of 15. Alcohol is by code of conduct something parents introduce for the child after the confirmation (In the old days, children was sent out to serve in farms - 150 years ago - so they were adults. It is not so today, but this part of the tradition still exist.). When they turn 16 they can get an ID-card at the town hall, so they don't have to get the parents to by their alcohol or tobacco.
Then they have two years to show to their parents that they can manage to enjoy alcohol in a civil manner. A drivers license in Denmark is rather expensive so most parents finance it (+1000 dollars). Of course no parents will finance a driver licens if the child could loose it very easily (Our limit is 0,05), so most children goes trough a period of adjustment before they settle.
This year we have lost about 315 people in traffic, which is the lowest number since 1950. So it does work to release access to alcohol BEFORE access to the car.
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Europe does decidedly do things differently than we do in the States. I think that it is easier for kids in Europe to get their driving privileges later due to your wonderful mass transit systems. Kids don't need their own wheels to get to school, jobs, clubs, shopping, etc. But here is the states (unless you live in a big city) mass transit does not exist.
I do applaud the European tradition of allowing children to drink alcohol. I think we create a certain taboo about alcohol in this country. I have been a parent who has allowed underage drinking in my home *gasp* - only for my own children of course. My thought has always been that I would rather my kids initially drank beer under my roof (so I can be sure that they don't get in a car) than out with peers unsupervised. It has worked well for my kids ... they seem to be very responsible drinkers.
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Actually Truth Searcher, i was the child of one of those homes which was pretty laid back about underage drinking. i cant say that it prevented the binge drinking phase. It also did not prevent any of the usual lies- really i just had 2 drinks but i didnt eat lunch.
But I think in the long run it did promote responsible habits particularly with regard to drink driving. Usually I knew that if i did drink i could call my parents and get a ride home or be provided with Cab fare. I also knew that if i was caught drink driving my car would be sold. It meant that when i was behind the wheel I took the responsiblity seriously.
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Easiest way to be a responsible drinker = be a beersnob!
You can't AFFORD to be some beer guzzler, and for that matter, why would you want to if it actually tastes good?
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I think parents should take their kids to AA meetings starting when the kids is very young. It really is never too early to prevent your child from becoming an alcoholic or drug addict. The disease runs in familes, so if parents are alcoholics the child should be expected, and taught that they will also be an alcoholic/addict when they grow up. They should become comfortable with the 12 steps at a young age. It's never too early.
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What?
So you can convince your kids they are alcoholics before they really are? That just doesn't make sense, just because genetically you are likely to become an alcoholic, it doesn't mean you will be, would you tell a girl to have a mastectomy at age 12 because all of her female relatives died of breast cancer? no - she is more at risk than someone who doesn't have the same breast cancer strikes in the family but this is taking prevention rather than cure too far.
My boys are at very high risk of developing serious drink problems, but I have no intention of dragging them off to a therapist to convince them that's what will happen, many many problems such as these are also learnt behaviour, imo it would be better to educate them that it's not a wise move and let them make their decisions based on what they know ...what next? drug rehab for kids who have grown up around heroin addicts? Anger managent for kids who have grown up in violent homes? This is absolutely ridiculous - kids are sent to programs because they hang out with friends their parents don't like or dress the way their parents dont like, or aren't getting the grades their parents want them to get, so what do you do? Send them to programs in case they choose the decisons the parents don't see fit?
get a grip for goodness sake.
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I think parents should take their kids to AA meetings starting when the kids is very young. It really is never too early to prevent your child from becoming an alcoholic or drug addict. The disease runs in familes, so if parents are alcoholics the child should be expected, and taught that they will also be an alcoholic/addict when they grow up. They should become comfortable with the 12 steps at a young age. It's never too early.
If the disease runs in the family, it is time for the parents to clean up their act. The most horrifying details about children are that they are equipped with eyes and ears. They are able to copy all they see in their role models - us parents. So my children don't exactly need to see me drunk (If you can manage to ly down on the floor without grapping firmly in the carpet, you are not really drunk).
However, the children can look for other role models, if the parents are not present due to work conditions or other interests. In the first case it is unfortunate, in the other case it is irresponsible. Is Paris Hilton a better role model than you or Ozzy Osbourne?
You prevent them from additions by joining them in their activity. If they watch TV all time, sit down next to them and chew something noisy. Beat them in their videogame. Show up once in a while at the disco, if their party lifestyle take a toe on daily life. If they watch porn, comment the artificial setup in with monotonous vocal pitch and take a cold shower afterward if such a sight cause a problem. Be with them and you will solve 90 percent of the problems.
But if you as a parent has an addiction, clean up today rather than tomorrow.
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I think parents should take their kids to AA meetings starting when the kids is very young. It really is never too early to prevent your child from becoming an alcoholic or drug addict. The disease runs in familes, so if parents are alcoholics the child should be expected, and taught that they will also be an alcoholic/addict when they grow up. They should become comfortable with the 12 steps at a young age. It's never too early.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Why not just model responsible drinking in the first place! Nobody says it is never too early to teach children about sex so when they are 7 have them watch some porn!
If uncle freddy the wino cant attend a BBQ without getting on the sauce from 10am then keep liquor out of the house when he comes to visit and quietly explain to the kids why. When kids hit the age that they are likely to drink talk about it alot and set some ground rules. When they come of age take them to a wine appreciation class or some such so that they can learn to apprciate it in moderation. I would imagine taking kids of any age to a 12 step programme whrn they have displayed no signs of alcoholism or addiction is a great way to destroy their inncoence and expose them to adults who you dont now.
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Let me better clarify "rules".
Kids want structure in their home lives, not chaos caused by out of control parents. Rules are part of a structured home life. Curfews being the one rule that most often comes to mind. Instead of obeying their curfew on Friday night, the kid parties into the wee hours with his friends and pays the consequences later. That's the way it worked in my youth. I looked forward to dinner with my folks and then sneaking out to party with my buds after I did my homework and any chores I had to do. I knew I was breaking "the rules" but hell, a kid's gotta do what he's gotta do. Somehow I made it through adolescence without driving my parents over the edge or ending up in one of these hellhole programs. Guess I just knew how to play the game without tripping the wire, I don't know. But rules (structure) as opposed to chaos caused by out of control demanding bully drug abusing parents or worse, indifference caused by parents who are not involved in their child's lives, is what kids need and want in my experience. I'm probably not expressing my opinion very well, maybe someone else can explain what I mean?
I agree with you about structure & rules. My 'problem kid' has, at times, reminded us that he needs structure, he needs boundaries, he needs consistency and he wants "parents," not older "friends." Great, wonderful. That's what we have tried to do for over 17 years. Sure, teens need to cross some of the lines at times and find their own way and all that. We were teens too, and we thought we understood how to balance that structure, rules and consequences with a fair amount of common sense when it comes to "teens will be teens" kinds of things.
But we made a lot of mistakes, and in so many cases we aren't sure what we should've done differently. We have tried lots of different parenting strategies. Heart-to-heart talks, getting more involved in his life, getting less involved in his life (giving him his space), trying to force some responsibility on him, trying to let him just be his own person and make his own mistakes -- you name it, we tried it. So-called "experts" were no help at all. I've got my own friggin' library of parenting books, self-help books, substance abuse recovery books and mental health books. I've got files full of receipts from all the therapists, community-based programs, etc. that he's tried over the last few years. Other parents, our friends, were not much help either because they had no similar frame of reference, either in their own teenage past or in their own kids' behavior.
You said when you were a teen you "knew how to play the game without tripping the wire." I can relate to that. So what do you do with a kid who constantly goes out of his way to find that wire and then trip it just for the sake of tripping it? How do you parent a kid who says he wants structure and boundaries and "parents who parent," but then takes every opportunity to demonstrate that no boundaries are acceptable to him and that he will do everything in his power to dismantle any semblance of structure and order in his life? Oh yeah, add to that a couple of serious mental health disorders -- repeatedly diagnosed and treated over the years by various professionals.
Keep in mind this is a kid who has two teen siblings that are happy, well-adjusted kids (to the extent that is possible during adolescence!), who were raised in the same household by the same biological parents, still happily married after all these years, using the same parenting approaches. They would constantly ask what was the deal with their brother, why did we let him get away with certain things, what were we going to do about it and so on. We never had any good answers for them, for him or for ourselves. We are not "out of control demanding bully drug abusing parents," but we do have past experiences with drugs and we are moderate social drinkers. We are definitely not indifferent or uninvolved in our children's lives. We are not perfect parents -- if there is such a thing -- and we are not uneducated or incompetent. We are human, doing the best we can with the best intentions and the best information available to us.
Things had reached an all-time low just prior to us getting sucked into this shitty Troubled Teen industry. Life is a lot better now, but by no means perfectly happy and trouble-free. I don't necessarily credit the program with anything in particular -- he got to where he is today because he wanted to, because he did the hard work. I wish we hadn't felt compelled to do it, but given where things are today, I don't entirely regret the decision.
Let the flames begin.
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I think you articulate the dichotomy of the teenage mind well. The tripwire needs to be tripped because it exists. Kind of like lighting a fire simply to watch it burn.
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So... given what you know and have experienced... how would you advise a parent in a similar situation?
In hindsight, what did the program do that you couldn't do at home?
What valuable, secret method do they use to 'change' kids?
There may be other causes, but I think the kid who is pushing hard for 'boundaries', is scared. They need someone who'll provide a little resistent to their pushing, whether that be mental jousting or actual physical sparing. I believe they are testing their parents to see what their made of, if you have what it takes to stick out the worst with them. Parents should go to counseling for themselves, so they can come back and be fully present for their kids and not bolt in terror when put to the test.
Some kids can just ignore the insanity around them. Petty rules, enforced boredom of school, the destruction of the environment, social injustices and war, and just fit into the narrow and highly restricted role society has created for them. Others can't. They want more. To be visible, to feel worthwhile, not to be coddled or minimized, to be heard and respected, to make a real and meaningful contribution. One's 'problem' child may actually be the deep thinker of the bunch, more keenly aware than their peers or siblings, but with no one to talk to and relate.
The irony, is how parents unawarely inhibit their kids development, while expecting them to act mature. There's a lot of bad parenting advice out there.
Kids need to be allowed to learn how to care for themselves, how to contribute to their household and larger community. They sh0uld be 'allowed' to pick their clothes and dress themselves when they are capable of doing so. 'Allowed' to participate in a rotating chore chart with the rest of the family from 2-2.5, on. They sh0uld be 'allowed' to do their own laundry by 12, anyway. How are kids going to learn this if mom and dad have a maid and don't even clean? "Entitlement" isn't a mental disorder, it's a learned behavior. They sh0uld be 'allowed' to cook as soon as they can reach the stove, and prepare dinner for the family on a regular basis. When I think of my kids serving the meal they prepared and the pride and self-respect that shone on their face, it still brings tears. These practical and seemingly simple tasks of development are how children learn how to function in a family unit and the world at large. When you 'allow' them to develop to the fullest of their ability, you are demonstrating respect and will receive respect in return. When you do for someone what they can do themselves, you create an invalid. There's far too much 'curling' going on.
That's what I love about Montessori. Her method came about by watching children who were left to fein for themselves out of nessessity during an economic depression. Kids are resourceful and capable, when given the opportunity. The problem in this society is that they are seen as commodities. Their only value is how they will be conditioned to contribute to the GNP. Someone else would have to speak to this, but it's as if many parents raise thier kids as if they were royalty, then resent their displays of entitlement. What a disservice. Is the thinking that rescuing them from 'domestic' chores will propell their careers? Who needs to cook when you can hire it done. Is it more desirable to focus on mastering making money and the real tasks of self-care can't be bought?
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Thanks Deborah for that very insightful post.
To answer your questions, the WC didn't really do anything for him that couldn't have been done in another way, although I doubt it could've been done at home. Hell, he probably could've achieved the same thing if he had spent the summer working on a fishing trawler off the coast of Alaska -- I'm totally serious. Not only would it have saved me a ton of money, but he would've made some of his own.
The "valuable, secret method" is neither valuable nor secret -- it's as you suggested, just letting kids do for themselves instead of having their every need attended to like they were royalty. That's our fault as parents. We live in the wealthiest country in the world, and some of us have given our kids way too much and encouraged them to become, as you said "invalids." School is boring and unchallenging, life is easy but conformity is expected, you can have any material thing you want and yet the world is a mess, and little Johnny down the street got a brand new Beemer for his 16th birthday. No wonder some people think their kids have "entitlement issues." It's more the parents' fault than the child's.
My kids have been more "allowed" to care for themselves than most of their peers. They resent this a lot, by the way. My 'problem child,' the oldest, is an incredibly brilliant young man. But the fact that he is near the top of his class and doesn't really remember his sophomore or junior years says more about how shitty the school system is than about how stoned he was. Still, he had his shit together enough to have a few different paying jobs, since he was old enough to lie about his age and get a job, and all our kids learned to cook, do laundry and chores and all that since a young age. It's not that we don't want to parent them, it's more that our idea of parenting is that by the time they are ready to move out, they shouldn't be very dependent on us anymore, except for possibly helping them with college so they don't acquire a mountain of debt like I had to.
The other thing you should understand about how I could do something so stupid as to send him to a wilderness program is that unlike most kids who get stuck in that situation, this was very familiar territory for him. He was 4-wheeling, camping and crawling in the dirt with his family before he learned to walk (literally) and has been exploring the wilderness on foot with family and friends ever since. So here he was a 17-year old kid getting dropped into the middle of Utah with a bunch of strangers, with the basic message of "you need to work some shit out," and he was very well prepared for that -- physically, mentally, emotionally. I had no doubt he wouldn't be the least bit scared of anything he would encounter out there. If they had called me and said "he's running away" I would probably have said "let him run. He can take care of himself." But when I heard him talk about some of the other participants -- for example, a 14-year old girl from Malibu who had never been anywhere but the beach and the mall -- I thought "that's just wrong."
I've rambled on long enough, but I hope some of it made sense.
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Deborah,
It's funny, reading what you have to say about allowing kids to gain the skills they need like coking, laundry etc.....my kids have always been responsible for picking up after themselves, coking meals with me, washing up, doing laundry etc, they have every skill there is when it comes to running a home, i actually started this as toddlers, when i changed a nappy, I would say "now go put it in the bin, it is dirty, we don't need that" the same would happen with toys, at the end of the dday, they would put the toys away in the box before bed
yet as teens they are the most disobedient and lazy toads on this planet, they have the skills but refuse to use them, i could supply an entire third word country with penecillin from what grows in their bedroom!
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(http://http://www.etproductions.com/gsa/images/piccolo-pooch.jpg)
(http://http://www.etproductions.com/gsa/images/piccolo-pooch.jpg)
(http://http://www.etproductions.com/gsa/images/piccolo-pooch.jpg)
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(http://http://www.etproductions.com/gsa/images/piccolo-pooch.jpg)(http://http://www.etproductions.com/gsa/images/piccolo-pooch.jpg)(http://http://www.etproductions.com/gsa/images/piccolo-pooch.jpg)
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allowing kids to gain the skills they need like coking
You know, maybe if you kept them off the 8-balls they wouldn't have quite the problems. Do they have a divided septum yet? :rofl:
BTW, remember that they might find this place sometime in the future and read everything you write...
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I think my kid's "coking" skills were quite up to par. "Cooking" skills too, and I don't just mean cooking food.
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If he wants advice on that kind of cooking, we provide that here too (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20109).
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I've always enjoyed your posts MGDP. You're a frickin riot!
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allowing kids to gain the skills they need like coking
You know, maybe if you kept them off the 8-balls they wouldn't have quite the problems. Do they have a divided septum yet? :rofl:
BTW, remember that they might find this place sometime in the future and read everything you write...
Okay it is late here, my spelling's gone to ratshit, so sue me :P
No need to worry about them reading any of this, there's nothing written here I wouldnt say openly to them.