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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 08, 2004, 04:52:00 PM

Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2004, 04:52:00 PM
The Seed Indeed is all you need to stay off the JUNK and the PILLS and the WEED.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... =917111900 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=10&From=list&SessionID=917111900)


"evidence was also introduced which revealed that Walton had abused drugs as an adolescent and teenager, and had been enrolled in a radical therapy program which likely left him severly emotionally scarred, but which had not halted his continued abuse of illegal drugs."


"... KIMBERLY WALTON, WHO WAS IN THE SAME SEED PROGRAM WITH MR  MR. WALTON. IT WAS HER TESTIMONY THAT WAS PRESENTED AT THE EVIDENTIARY HEARING IN 1991 THAT EXPLAINED THE NATURE OF THIS EXPERIMENTAL PROGRAM AND HOW DAMAGING IT WAS TO PEOPLE WHO WENT THROUGH THE PROGRAM.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2004, 04:53:00 PM
oops sorry, that was me. Forgot to log in.

GregFL
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Stripe on December 08, 2004, 06:00:00 PM
I take it the jury or sentencing judge did not put much weight on the tesitmony quoted here.  Having assisted in the defense of more than one first degree murder case I can say that it's a terrible thing for everyone.  Tragic for the victim and family, tragic for the defendant and family.  Tragic for the persons who have to prosecute and defend.  Even more tragic when persons who have been victims themselves become the perpetrators.  Even more tragic still when things that are suposed to help people only end up making the situation so much worse.

My heart hurts for these folks.  But logic tells me that most of them actually did what they are accused of doing. What hurts is that so many of them have been so stripped of personal value and so morally degraded that they attach no value at all to their life or the lives of other people.  when that is the case, it just appears to us who are on the outside, that it was easy for them to kill.  Or, in some cases, they fight back with such overwhleming ferocity (sp?) that they lose control and kill by accident - or even worse, they over-kill on purpose. Odd concept, but it happens.  

Maybe some of you reading this might remember going to some place in your mind, escaping to a place where that wasn't filled with the negative Seed.  I gues we who were able to do that kind og escaping/traveling are the  lucky ones.  I've said it here before: No one is inherenetly bad and I really belive that - even guys like this.  something happened.  

I've had to "shut down" to make it through some expericences - especially later in my life when I was the victim in a physically, ect. abusive marriage.  It was only then, at that moment when I choose to walk away because some small inner voice told me that I had no ability to eract in-kind that I became afraid of what I could do.  nd - onlells you you can't react in kind - That's when I realized how close I'd been to crossing that line - how just one more little push could have made the difference.    

My professional work has helped move me away from that, but reading just this one excerpt brings it all back. Very chilling.  

Maybe based on my experiences I could be claimed as a Seed success, but I don't believe I'll allow them to take credit.  Afterall, if it wasn't for all of the stripping away expereiced in the program, I might have had enough of a sense of self to have made other choices in my life.  Any way, thanks be to the good powers in the world for sparing me and my baby from all that could have been.
Thanks, too Greg, for the oppotunity to tell my "success" story.  I didn't kill someone.      

T
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 08, 2004, 06:34:00 PM
Actually, you being a lawyer will appreciate this case even more than most.  The testimony about the seed only came up in a hearing trying to communicate his sentence to life.  That is how I found it, and what really interests me is I have a vaque memory of him. He was in the St Pete seed.

I also read the case report and he looks guilty as hell.

The heading is a sarcastic (sorry but it is my nature) jab at Art's claimed 90% success ratio. By the Seed's standards, we are almost all failures, having drank and done drugs since graduating. Even some of the most rabid supporters here fess up to "struggling" with alcoholism and drugs after graduating which we all know takes you right out of the "successfull graduate" status. Yet Art AS EARLY AS LAST YEAR was saying the seed had a 90% success ratio.

Hell, I know almost no one that didn't do drugs or drink after the seed, or kill themselves or go to jail or screw up majorly somehow.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 09, 2004, 10:26:00 AM
Greg,
I'm with you on this subject.  That was the point of my spilling my guts - because that kind of emotional abuse and control makes for some very "edgy" people.  I don't have to fight every day to not do drugs.  Instead, I fight to overcome seed programming. I have accomplished so much in my life and yet I still feel empty - like somehow I'm faking my way through all this.      

The fact that I did not retaliate - BUT THAT I ACTUALLY CONTEMPLATED IT (and for what seemed like an eternity) that's what makes me know how diminished the seed programming made me. I'll bet there's many more marginal people out there who have thought there is something wrong with them because of Seed, Striaght - etc.    Truth is folks, there's nothing really wrong with any of us. These are learned patterns that were imposed from the outside in - completely external.

I'm hoping that with time I can overcome this programming as well.  Go through those grief statges for the loss of my inner self to some evil fucking people. I think now, after 32 years of denial, I've moved on to anger and it's okay. Those fucking people have destroyed lives and families.  They tried to destroy me and my brother.  We have worked so hard our entire lives to overcome that shit. We have experienced so much needless pain and turmoil because of that programming.  

Art Barker and his staff have emotionally crippled every person who ever came in contact with that fucking place.  Creating need where none existed before by  destroying confidence, self-respect and self-determination.  

Art Barker and those others - what fucking cruel people.  I hope his life, and all the lives of all others who supported that place, are very painful lives -  very long and very, very painful lives.

By the way, I guessing Art never visited/visits that fellow on death row...
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Stripe on December 09, 2004, 11:59:00 AM
I forgot to log in as well. That's me just above.
Thanks,
 Stripe
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Robin Martin on December 10, 2004, 12:20:00 AM
Quote
Art Barker and those others - what fucking cruel people.  I hope his life, and all the lives of all others who supported that place, are very painful lives -  very long and very, very painful lives.


If you look at it another way, you are still letting your past experiences control you and you've fought that war far too long.
Anon, get help - find peace.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2004, 09:01:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-09 21:20:00, Robin Martin wrote
If you look at it another way, you are still letting your past experiences control you and you've fought that war far too long.

Anon, get help - find peace. "


And if you look at it in yet another way, this shit is STILL going on and we're trying to prevent it from happening to anyone else.

http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/curre ... ature.html (http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/current/news/feature.html)

I'm not the anon you were speaking to but sorry, I can't 'find peace' knowing that kids are still being, ahem...."treated" this way.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 10, 2004, 09:19:00 AM
Robin, if you knew more about who you were talking to, you wouldn't say that. Instead, you would find she is just now confronting what happened to her and working thru it. She is seeking help and peace...from within herself.

Your post was a little condensending I think.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Stripe on December 10, 2004, 09:38:00 AM
Well, actually, I expected a response like that from pro-seed people. I knew what I was laying myself open for when I wrote that.

I think I'm wise enough to spot the long term effects of programming in me and in others . It's a good thing I only look at this website during daylight hours otherwise it might have ruined what was otherwise a really peacful night.  If I wasn't further away from the programming and able to look at my life more objectively - even those very emotional and raw parts of my life, statements like that of Robin Martin would definitely hurt, cause me to withdraw, and doubt myself...but not any more.
Deprogramming is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Love and peace to all of the angels out there who are looking out for each other.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 10, 2004, 10:45:00 AM
On the other side, Stripe, I don't wish Art or any of them anything but the same peace I seek myself. In fact I would love to talk to any of them

Now that wasn't always true. I think once upon a time I would have danced on Art's  grave. Not now, I don't begrudge anyone anything anymore.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 10, 2004, 10:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-10 06:01:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2004-12-09 21:20:00, Robin Martin wrote
If you look at it another way, you are still letting your past experiences control you and you've fought that war far too long.


Anon, get help - find peace. "




And if you look at it in yet another way, this shit is STILL going on and we're trying to prevent it from happening to anyone else.



http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/curre ... ature.html (http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/current/news/feature.html)



I'm not the anon you were speaking to but sorry, I can't 'find peace' knowing that kids are still being, ahem...."treated" this way."


That article fails to investigate properly where growing together of Lake Worth got its "techniques" and improperly credits George Ross and Miller Newton. Neither of these guys did anything but observe the Seedlings running the Straight group in St Petersburg and wrote down what they saw.

In other words, they plagarized Art's program and then added a little fluff to make it appear to be their own. Then they ran off and started their own little personality cults.

The modality that was the Seed and is in modern day "growing together", "kids helping Kids", "SAFE", "AARC" and others still in existence is a self perpetuating model.

This begs the question, who did Art Plagarize it from originally? I have a very hard time believing he started out in a house where people came and went freely, kind of hippy lovey dovey rehab, and rapidly within two years resulted in the facist program with strict and very effective mind control techniques that I was in in 1973 St Pete.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2004, 11:01:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-10 07:51:00, GregFL wrote:


This begs the question, who did Art Plagarize it from originally? I have a very hard time believing he started out in a house where people came and went freely, kind of hippy lovey dovey rehab, and rapidly within two years resulted in the facist program with strict and very effective mind control techniques that I was in in 1973 St Pete.  

"


It came from a combination of AA's 12 Steps and Chuck Dederich's Synanon.

http://orange-papers.org/orange-gulags.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-gulags.html)
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2004, 11:03:00 AM
A portion of that page:

Many people tried to emulate Synanon. Places like Daytop Lodge and Phoenix House in NYC. The most successful for kids-only Synanon follow-on was The Seed founded in June 1970 in Fort Lauderdale by the charismatic Art Barker. (Art had come from NYC). The National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) was so impressed with The Seed that it gave Barker a $1 million grant. Drug Czar Robert DuPont led NIDA while Barker was being funded his grant money. Barker had visions of making Seeds all over the state of Florida and then all over the country. But in 1974 the US Senate published a study which accused The Seed of using methods which it likened to Communist brainwashing techniques. Besides this unwanted bad-press, The Seed was having other difficulties. The Senate was cracking down on NIDA in its consideration of a request from Barker for another cool million to expand his services throughout Florida. The Senate had told NIDA that Barker was doing human experimentations and that NIDA's own regulations required the people being experimented upon to sign statements of consent. And then there was the new host home regulations. The state of Florida's HRS had adopted a set of standards of how to regulate the host home element of The Seed and Barker said he had problems with those new regulations. Under the weight of all these problems Art Barker gave up on his expansion plans.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 10, 2004, 11:11:00 AM
Ah, but Anon, that website took their information from Wes Fagers Website. Wes Fager has long claimed a connection to Synanon but has been unable to make it.

To reiterate, to date NO CONNECTION has been made to the synanon.  NONE. The only thing we know is there is some commonality of technique and cultic language. Some of this commonality exists because the synanon was an offshoot of AA that went cult and Art Barker was a rabid AA guy.  This I know... Art Barker never attended the synanon. I know this almost to a certainty.  There is cirumstancial evidence that others brought the more rigid techniques and synanon style with them, but as of right now, as we write here, this is the biggest mystery in the whole history of the program...the biggest gaping hole so to speak.


So it still begs the question...how did it rapidly go from 1971...an open house hippy love fest rehab to what it was in 1973, a rigid mind control cult and the precursor to Straight, Inc.?

Also notable is that in 1974, after the NIDA grant was cancelled, the press started reporting on the techniques and giving press to the abuse charges, Art started slowly changing the program back and letting up on the techniques a bit, eventually turning away from treating minors.

 Was Bobbie Dupont resonsible for Art changing the program? Was it a deal where Dupont gave him the grant under the condition he start using the synanon techniques? Did Dupont also put a person in such as Cliff or Underwood that was familar with the synanon techniques? Cliff and John  were much older and different than almost anyone else there and I remember John talking about another place and saying something to the effect that "all this started at ...." but I can't remember the name and it is a very old memory which makes it rather muddy.

 Above is one theory I have, but honestly it is only a theory right now.

This is a very compelling question...one that I wish someone who really knew would answer.

John Underwood would be one I would think may have the answers. I sure wish he would show up here and let us know what he knows.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2004, 11:15:00 AM
OK, no official connection but that's when these "theraputic communities" started popping up.  It was also at the beginning of Nixon's War on Drugs.  This created an atmosphere of fear and contempt and bore the idea of getting tough on druggies.  It seems to me a fairly natural evolution of someone with that mindset.  Sick and twisted, but natural for them.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2004, 11:18:00 AM
Not to mention that it gave ol' Art the opportunity to be worshipped and adored the way all cult leaders yearn for.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Stripe on December 10, 2004, 11:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-10 07:45:00, GregFL wrote:

"On the other side, Stripe, I don't wish Art or any of them anything but the same peace I seek myself. In fact I would love to talk to any of them



Now that wasn't always true. I think once upon a time I would have danced on Art's  grave. Not now, I don't begrudge anyone anything anymore.



"


Yeah, you are probably right and some day I'll be there.  I'm just not there today.  Thanks.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 10, 2004, 11:32:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-10 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:

"OK, no official connection but that's when these "theraputic communities" started popping up.  It was also at the beginning of Nixon's War on Drugs.  This created an atmosphere of fear and contempt and bore the idea of getting tough on druggies.  It seems to me a fairly natural evolution of someone with that mindset.  Sick and twisted, but natural for them."


There is no question that the synanon was the springboard for the ENTIRE "teen help industry" that has evolved into what it is today.

Once upon a time I credited Art Barker for creating the first synanon style treatment center for non addicted youths. Then I found out CEDU, which is LINEARLY connected to synanon, predated the Seed by about 2 years. Then there was daytop, Elan, Phoenix house, and a host of synanon rehabs springing up everywhere, from one end of the country to the other. All of them were started by synanites.

Then, out of nowhere, with no obvious connection to the synanon, comes the Seed using similar techniques. The Seed was the first program to "treat" large numbers of non addicted kids with AA and synanon style treatment in warehouses. That is Art's legacy...he is the pioneer of the warehousing of america's youth into thought control cults.

So here we are, 35 years later, and we still can't get a straight answer on how and where Art learned of the synanon style of treatment.

Art (or Shelly), John or Cliff, Libby or Suzie, if you are reading this, let us off the hook. We would love your participation here and have some direct questions that only you guys can answer.

 Don't we at least deserve to know our own story?
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2004, 11:57:00 AM
I really don't understand what is so confusing here.  He saw the others that you mentioned and created his own version.  Are you looking for some sort of smoking gun??  Does it have to be LINEARLY connected in order for him to have taken what he saw or read about and make it his own?
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 10, 2004, 12:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-10 08:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I really don't understand what is so confusing here.  He saw the others that you mentioned and created his own version.  Are you looking for some sort of smoking gun??  Does it have to be LINEARLY connected in order for him to have taken what he saw or read about and make it his own?"


the techniques didn't come to him in a dream. There was no internet, no book on how to set up a synanon based treatment program.

How did he "see" it? That is the question.

Yes, I am looking for the "smoking gun". I think it exists on some level.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 10, 2004, 01:22:00 PM
I know there was no internet, but Synanon did receive a good bit of publicity in the mid 70s for their unorthodox methods.  If Art was looking to set up some kind of a program to help the troubled youth of America I imagine he would have done some research into the reportedly most successful methods or 'the latest and greatest'.  He wouldn't have needed the internet to become aware of the new "theraputic communities" that were beginning to spring up.  

There may be some smoking gun.  It would add one more piece to the puzzle.  I guess that specific line just isn't one of the most critical pieces to me.  I just don't see it as that much of a mystery.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Robin Martin on December 12, 2004, 11:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-10 06:19:00, GregFL wrote:

"Robin, if you knew more about who you were talking to, you wouldn't say that. Instead, you would find she is just now confronting what happened to her and working thru it. She is seeking help and peace...from within herself.


Your post was a little condensending I think.

I have no need in being condesending to anyone hurting and still in pain.  I also do not discount there was major abuse to some - just not done to me or anyone else in my circle of friends. This is why I find this site very interesting yet complex.  It's not black & white for ANYONE, is it?

"...if you knew more about who you were talking to, you wouldn't say that..."  Well Greg, news flash :wstupid:  in trying to separate the "Who's who of Anons" so if you REALLY wish me to know you and understand what you are about, let's pick a name - any name! Or feel free to always e/m me privately as others have done.

I understand those wanting to remain Anon but don't bully me Greg by saying "if you knew..."
Okey Dokey??

Peace to all,
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 13, 2004, 12:28:00 AM
Nice diatribe Robin...But she made it clear in this thread who she was ...STRIPE.  That was clear from the very beginning..I said "if you knew MORE about who you were taking to" not if you knew who...because that was clear as this.. ::bangin::



Look, you are right it isn't black and white. But it isn't also right vs wrong, evil vs good, seedlings vs druggies, pro vs con or any other adverserial situation. we are all just a bunch of middle aged people that went thru rehab 30 something years ago in the same nuthouse cult.

Often when people find this site they get angry. These old memories were sometimes pushed way down for many years, and people tend to go thru a whole range of emotions when they confront this, especially those that were traumatized by the seed and haven't run around the last 30 years feeling "saved" about being locked up,"modified" and coerced into a cultic love fest.


My point is, we have a huge range of opinions here, but we really are all on the same side.

Except ft lauderdale of course.     :grin:

I notice that lately we all seem a little quick to jump to anyone's defense over small stuff. Lets all think about loosening up a little. Disagreement of this forum is actually a very positive thing, IMO.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Stripe on December 13, 2004, 09:45:00 AM
Not particularly interested in pursuing this much further with you, Robin. As you say, everyone's experience was different.  Obviously, your experience and my experience were like night and day.  

I don't care to get into a discussion with you in which I am perceived as trying to convince you the place was bad anymore than I want you to tell me it was all goodness and light.  

I pose but one general question for anyone:

How is it that a place that preached such "love and honesty" turn out people with such varied and different experieces?  

Could it be that there was more than one kind of program being run at the same time ?

That's all I can fugure. I guess some people were lucky and fell into the truly protected group of people  who never had to worry about being stood up and come down on, started over, toilet seats, and all that other cruel crap they used to run on us.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: cleveland on December 13, 2004, 10:13:00 AM
All I can say is: The Seed may have been a top-down hierarchy, but it was also a bunch of late-adolescent-to-early 20s kids running around, taking kids home, leading raps, trying to be 'straight' - and all of these kids had only months before been hanging out with their friends getting drunk and getting high - now they were 'perfect' seedlings? So, depending upon who your oldcomer was, who was on staff at the time, and hundreds of other variables, the experience could be SO different.

When I moved from Cleveland to the Florida Seed in the late 70s, things had a totally different feel. The Cleveland Seed had the charismatic, hilariously funny Scott B. as the senior staff, with the grimmer, more serious Bob W. as his counterpart. My oldcomers were all serious gearheads, construction workers, greasers, hard-asses. There was kind of a macho vibe in Cleveland. Moving to Florida - almost all the staff were women, there were palm trees and balmy weather - it was different.

When I read about toilet seat humiliations and other excesses, those things just weren't part of my experience. I was also a volunteer as were many of my cohorts as the laws had changed, making it illegal to compel someone thru the courts or by parental decree to 'get straight.' So it was different.

I have to point out though, that subtle forms of humiliation and ostracism were always part of the Seed experience, as there would be with any group that is trying to enforce it's own group standards. No room for dissent or ambiguity at the Seed!

_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-12-13 07:22 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-12-13 07:23 ]
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 13, 2004, 11:33:00 AM
Just one point Cleveland. It really didn't become illegal to "compel" someone into treatment, the tools of the trade just changed and Art didn't change with it.

Nowadays, they put you in and instead of threatening you with a court order, they threaten you with the Baker act,and use it quite liberally when people refuse to sign themselves in.  

The modern day programs also use "escorts" where these burly self rightous assholes come and with the blessing of the parents they kidnap the kids, handcuff them and "transport" them. As illegal as this sounds, oftentimes airlines let them put them on planes like this and even transport them out of the country. All they have to do is say they are transporting a kid into a treatment facility and have a paper signed by the parent.

Also, they just changed the name to "host home" in order to get around the foster home requirements.

Things have changed, but not necessarily for the best.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: cleveland on December 13, 2004, 12:08:00 PM
Thanks for the detail.

I had some personal experience with this on the other side. My mom, after a life-long battle with depression, started drinking heavily after a divorce, business breakup and the death of her boyfriend. It got so bad that she showed up to family events and her job roaring drunk. I got calls from the police and from coworkers. We arranged for an 'intervention' and she told us all to go to hell, so, I did my best to push it out of my mind. Meanwhile, she got so bad that her house went into foreclosure and she declared bankruptcy, and had to be admitted to the hospital several times in a state of acute alcohol poisoning. Once I even signed her in for an evaluation at a rehab against her will, but she signed herself out in three days, her legal right. However, every time I had Adult Protective Services schedule a visit, she'd clean up her act, serve tea and cookies and charm everyone with her wit and her sense of humor. "We can't do anything for someone who's made bad choices" they told me!

Imagine my dilemma - I don't want her to kill herself (or someone else, she's still driving) but she will not admit to any problems with alcohol. Finally, at the last near-fatal hospitalization, I am able to get a psychiatrist to admit her to a lock down faciality and hold a competency hearing. It was very ugly.

Today, it's a year later, she is sober (perhaps against her will), her health issues have been addressed and she's on medicare/medicaid and has a legal guardian, and is living in a controlled facility. She is better than she's been in years - I actually enjoy being with her. However, she is petitioning the court to end her guardianship and they might do it, so we'll see. Apparently she's admitted (but not to me) a problem with alcohol.

So, while I am a total liberal in almost every respect when it came to my mom destroying her life I was completely ready to lock her up and at least give her the opportunity to sober up before she died of this. It gives me some hint of what parents might have faced or feared when they dropped kids off at the seed.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 13, 2004, 02:16:00 PM
Boy what tough decisions you and your brother have had to make. My heart goes out to you guys and I feel sorry for your mother.

My mom is an alcoholic and a compulsive smoker. In fact, it is literally killing her as we speak, she has advanced Emphysema.

Life isn't always black and white, just as Robin said earlier.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: cleveland on December 13, 2004, 05:03:00 PM
Oh yeah, my mom's a heavy smoker too. It's amazing to see her side by side with her sister, who is older but has taken good care of herself. They're both about 73 - my mom looks like she's in her 80s, my aunt looks like she's in her 60s.

Yes, there is no black or white - sometimes I wish there were clear answers, but no. So we can talk about all of this forever. Human beings seem to have a need to alter their reality, whether it's meditation or skydiving, or alcohol or drugs, and for some people, the temptation turns into an addiction. What do we do with them? What do we do ourselves, when it's us?

Personally I ascribe to the buddhist belief of conscious living - go ahead, smoke, drink, whatever, but pay close attention to how you feel, in the moment. What's the payoff? What's the cost? I think it's useful to be as aware as possible.

Take care, Greg!
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Antigen on December 13, 2004, 11:09:00 PM
Damn, Cleveland! I just got back from a rather stressful week away from home; one of many recently. Thanks for the much needed dose of zen.

Here's my first thought in that vein (no pun intended) Some people get themselves off on discovery or accomplishment or serving others or building a legacy or some combination. I'm not talking giving more than your fair share 9 - 5. I'm talking about pursuing this opus to the point of totally and utterly neglecting other concerns, like getting adequate sleep and nutrition, paying proper attention to a family (having a family to begin with), finances.  

Those who become completely obsessed like this become elite surgeons. And some of the most obsessive among those remain on staff at hospitals as attending physicians, making a pittance of what they could make in private practice, just to get the hard doses coming regularly. If it were booze or heroin or some other medicine instead of medicin as a profession, you'd describe these people as totally dysfunctional basket cases and (some of ya'll) recomend meetings.

It's all in your perspective, really; what's important to you and to those who are important to you.

Question. If every cloud has a silver lining, would that include mushroom clouds?

The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, poet, philosopher



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Antigen on December 13, 2004, 11:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-09 07:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

Truth is folks, there's nothing really wrong with any of us. These are learned patterns that were imposed from the outside in - completely external.



If you happen to run into one of my brothers, would you try and explain that to him please? They won't believe me when I try to tell them.

All contemporary religions and churches, all and every kind of religious organization, Marxism has always viewed as organs of bourgeois reaction, serving as a defense of exploitation and the doping of the working-classes.
--Nikolai Lenin, Russian revolutionary



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 14, 2004, 07:33:00 AM
Antigen, I got to say some days I wonder if the fumes from the mushroom cloud have affected you in an odd way.  Possibly its me, but I have a hard time following you.  I still picture you in army boots & camouflage.(in my own mind)  On one hand you come off extremely intelligent but you go off on these weird angles that on more than one occasion I can prove you wrong because I witnessed events or facts that you have totally
twisted or you have a totally unrealistic view of and I'm not trying to be cruel but you looked at these things from a young kids point of view.  I know nothing of straight inc but I do know the Seed or at least 30 years worth.  How old were you the last time you stepped foot into the Seed?
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Stripe on December 14, 2004, 09:37:00 AM
I'd love to.  It took me 30+ years to figure that out, lots of therapy, many, many tears and a whole lot of other bullshit that I won't bother to go into.  And yet, it's so simple. I wonder why others can't see it.  

I expect there will always be people I disagree with.  However, disagreement is sometimes only a matter of perspective. Like your example of the physician obsessed with saving lives.  Does the result of the obsession make it any better? I dunno. But if I had to choose between the 9-5 guy who can go home and leave it all behind and not worry about my well-being versus the obsessed, driven healer, I'd pick the obsessed guy.  But then, that's just me.

Thanks for all of your hard work here on this site.  The explosion that has been my life over the past years is finally being sorted out, ordered and somewhat contained. The information, feed back and ideas here are invaluable and eyou are all doing a wonderful thing. Thank you all, again.
 
Stripe
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Stripe on December 14, 2004, 09:46:00 AM
The above is directed to Antigen.  I'll get the hang of the quote and reply methodology eventually.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: cleveland on December 14, 2004, 10:28:00 AM
Ginger-Antigen,

I suspect you are one of the obsessive people you write about!

It's interesting - in my own family, I can see my brother, who's obsessively driven to succeed, to push the limits, and to win. He's a very successful journalist, and he leads an exciting life. He gets a kick out of travelling to Iraq in the midst of war or infiltrating a White Supremecist training compound. I prefer less sensational past times - playing piano, drawing, reading. I think we inherited slightly different needs for stimulation, excitement, drive. He's nationally known - while I'm respected by a small circle of friends.

My parents are obsessively driven people - extremely intense, self-obsessed. They've both been terrific successes, celebrated by all, as well total failures in one way or another.

Most of the hard core drug/alcohol users I've known are obsessive types - they go from being devils to angels with the same verve. So Art Barker, down and out alcoholic, becomes Art Barker, savior of america's youth. Do you follow?

I think at this point in my life I've had it with heroes and gurus, I am kind of drawn to the quiet people who tend to keep out of the spotlight. Maybe it's due to my own experiences.

So if you define success as acclaim, power, money - that's one way. But there are other successes that are more inward. Because I have largely 'failed' to win the big outward stuff I have looked more inward, it's more my personality.

To each his own!
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Antigen on December 14, 2004, 10:32:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-14 04:33:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

Possibly its me, but I have a hard time following you.


Simple, straightforward and explains a lot. Sounds like a good theory, maybe it is you.

You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein

Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 14, 2004, 11:00:00 AM
Antigen - as usual you avoided the question.  How old were you thelast time you stepped foot at the Seed?  Is this a difficult question? :???:
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Antigen on December 14, 2004, 11:02:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-14 07:28:00, cleveland wrote:

Most of the hard core drug/alcohol users I've known are obsessive types - they go from being devils to angels with the same verve. So Art Barker, down and out alcoholic, becomes Art Barker, savior of america's youth. Do you follow?


Yeah, exactly that!

Stripe, I'd stick w/ the obsessed doctors too!

My point is that the obsessed doctor and the obsessed addict are basically operating on the same mechanism. The big difference is in how people view their obsession.

Nother example. My 15yo spends a whole lot of time at the computer, playing games, chatting w/ friends. Some might say she's obsessed. And there's a lot written in pop media about internet addiction and such. No one's offering to pay her for it at this point.

My husband and I started out the same way 10 or 15 years ago w/ local BBSs. No one was offering to pay us for that either, but it was just so damned much fun. Challenging, too, since we couldn't afford to buy good machines but, instead, had to build them from scraps and bartered items.

Now we get paid to do this. Not huge sacks of cash, but enough to support our family fairly well w/o having to commute, punch a clock, buy work clothes, etc. So instead of describing us as obsessed geeks w/ a serious problem, people use kinder terms like driven, dedicated, hard working. Shit, Bill's boss has been calling him "Super Warb" since his first week on the job around 10 years ago.

My point is that these behaviors that practitioners of Stepcraft frame as illness in need of treatment are not. Bad choices? In many cases, undoubtably. But pathology? Well, ok, but then we have to admit that our brilliant surgeon or system administrator is also pathological. It's like the wife who told her shrink that her husband thinks he's a chicken. But it's not a problem cause they needed the eggs.

If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb

Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 14, 2004, 11:25:00 AM
Brilliant observation Ging.

I have often said the amount of true addiction in people is vastly overstated. Oh sure it exists, but mostly people just obsessively consume and compulsively do things.

This is why cigarrettes are so damn hard to kick. If nicotene was the horribly addictive drug people claim it to be, then we could just administer nicotene orally or via skin transfer (patch) and cure most everyone of smoking. We all know we can't. Why not?

I submit it is the delivery method that people become compulsively attached to. The smoke, the oral fixation, the warmth, the comraderie of other smokers, the rebellousness of it.  

Sure smokers are addicted to nicotene, but the compusion to the delivery method in my opinion is a much bigger draw. Given the choice of cigarettes without nicotene or nicotene without cigarrettes, hands down nicotene would be the loser by a HUGE margin.

I could go on and on with examples here, but in my opinion stepcraft and its various incarnations is nothing short of sorcery, that is it only works because people believe it to and it replaces one compulsion with an obsession, the obsession to belong to an exclusive group and rise up thru the ranks.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 14, 2004, 11:27:00 AM
FL, I was 15. I think Ginger was around 17 or 18.  What is the point of the age thing? I remember it well and have gone back to open meeting at the modern day seeds to refresh my memory.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 14, 2004, 12:31:00 PM
No I think she was like 12.  I'm talking seed not straight inc?
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2004, 01:23:00 PM
that Ft Laud is like comparing a florida orange to a california orange.

Straight was started, run, and founded by seed people. I knew them all.

No major difference, just a slight taste variance..you know, like the oranges.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 14, 2004, 01:35:00 PM
Greg is that you posting anonymously.  I'd have to say big differences in programs. I'd say apples and oranges.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 14, 2004, 01:37:00 PM
::ftard::  ::ftard::
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 14, 2004, 01:38:00 PM
One was original and I think one was extra crispy :grin:
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 14, 2004, 01:41:00 PM
That was me, I swear I logged in!


Anyway, one other point Ft Lauderdale.  I have known Ginger for about 5 years. Not only does she intimately "get" what went on in the seed, she brings a very unique prospective to the table.

That is, she was forced into the cult at about age 4 or so, had to help prepare the meals, go to open meeting twice a week, then to dennys until the wee hours, all the while her mom and brothers all deeply impedded in it. Her whole world as a child revolved around the program doctrine and Art Barker worship.  She also lost most of her friends because the little 6 and 7 year olds weren't seedlings (probably were "dry druggies" according to the seed). She then went into treatment with no drug problem and as many of us did and had to REJECT OUR FAMILIES OR GOT REJECTED BY OUR FAMILIES and made seriously hard choices in order to gain freedom and autonomy.

While her experience was much different than yours, it nevertheless tells an important story from her perspective. Her whole family was so immersed in the damn cult it is a wonder she escaped it.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 14, 2004, 01:49:00 PM
:tup:  :lol:

That about sums it up there, the chicken comparison that is!!!

But seriously, there wasn't that much of a difference. The straight was a little more brutal, a little less "loving", but the basic fundamental treatment method was the same, right down to the placement of the chairs, the terminology, the "Raps" the steps, damn near everything.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on December 14, 2004, 02:17:00 PM
I think her family was involved for maybe 2 years tops.  Now I know nothing about Straight.  I'm guessing 2 years cause I don't know them. In my mind there is so much resentment towards her and her family-that she blames everything on the Seed. All from a little girls point of view.  Her family does sound pretty screwed up (so was mine)And Greg you were a pissed off teenager totally rebellious and ready to fight with anyone in your way and I can't blame you or her. Now this is just my observation. I think I know the type of guy you are and nothing was going to hold you down. I think you were probably a pretty neat kid that needed some guidance and did not get exactly what you needed.  I wish I did know you then.  I'm sorry I didn't.  I did have a completely diffrent experience at the Seed from both of you.  My family benifited greatly from the little experience they had with it.  My dad died 2 years ago - he went to AA and was sober for the past 25 years.  My mom was a complete nut case when I was a kid in and out of nuthouses when she did not get an inheritance from her dad and her step mother the same age as she was walked away with it all.  But I'll tell you what. Sure I'm divorced that didn't work out but I am close as hell with my siblings and love them dearly and their kids as well.  What am I trying to say- I'm sorry things were horrible for you- There was so much good that I saw on a daily basis and I'm not a pollyanna - Actually I was never in any inner circle.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 14, 2004, 10:28:00 PM
Thanks for being sorry. I genuinely believe that you are sincere.

And you are right, I was a very angry kid, but my anger started in the seed and continued as I struggled against it and the grip it had on my family and on me. Eventually I directed this anger in a very unhealthy direction towards all authority. I also learned a very sick form of confrontational communication there that took me years and years to realize  was unsociable and not accepted in normal society.

You are also right that the seed was very negative for me and my family. But seriously  believe me when I tell you that is all behind me now. The anger is gone and good riddance to it!

 I am here for other reasons and one of them is to get the truth out on what really happened, to create a open forum where we can tell our stories. The seed had such a huge impact on me and my family and I knew it was for others as well. Also, when I started understanding the processes I was subject to and the fact that my reactions were not uncommon, I felt others might be able to benefit from that knowledge and from shared discussion on this subject, something that has been sorely lacking for the last 30 years.

This forum rocks, to be sure.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on December 14, 2004, 10:29:00 PM
Talk to ginger about how long her family was "involved" because I really don't have the anser and shouldn't speak for her.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Thom on February 12, 2005, 12:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-14 19:29:00, GregFL wrote:

"Talk to ginger about how long her family was "involved" because I really don't have the anser and shouldn't speak for her."


Well, I can't speak for Greg or Ginger, but as her brother, I can address the length of family involvement question:

Family involvement started, I believe, in early '71 with our 2 older brothers and myself. My younger, and Ginger's older sister followed. Oldest brother left pretty quick, next stayed a bit longer, not sure of sister's start/end times. I think I was the last one to attend, probably in '75. All of us were Andrews Ave. and or SR 84
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Antigen on February 12, 2005, 02:06:00 PM
Thom, long after you graduated again, Mom was dragging me down to open meetings every Friday night. Then there was the "volunteer" work making sandwiches in the kitchen at Plantation Elementary.

Every Sunday after Sunday school and church, we'd make the drive down to SR-84 and wait at the gate for a couple of Seedlings to come out w/ a couple of bread racks full of bread, mayonaise, mustard, PB&J and lunch meat and load them into the trunk of the car. Sometimes, there would be another "volunteer" parent waiting there too. Then we'd drive over to the elementary school and spend an hour or so assembling the sandwiches, load them back into the trunk and deliver them back to the Seedling at the gate. Then on to either Denny's or Skyline for a late lunch then back home.

I think she thought that a little Seed was a good prophylactic against adolescence and impending druggiedome. And she believed, and believes to this day, all the bullshit "signs of drug addiction", like a need for privacy, mood swings, changes in fashion and music and, above all, any attempt to make friends. GOD forbid I should let slip any desire to be a part of anything except for church and The Seed.

I'm still grateful to good old Don Taws. What a sweet old man he was. When Mom sent me into his office to get chastised for not formally joining the church, he told me it was alright; that he would never want anybody to swear an oath that they didn't believe and that he'd always be there if I wanted to talk. And I found out later that he'd been trying to explain to Mom for awhile that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to force me to attend services and open meetings if I didn't want to.

Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
Thomas Jefferson, 1787

Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Thom on February 12, 2005, 05:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-12 11:06:00, Antigen wrote:


I'm still grateful to good old Don Taws. What a sweet old man he was. When Mom sent me into his office to get chastised for not formally joining the church, he told me it was alright; that he would never want anybody to swear an oath that they didn't believe and that he'd always be there if I wanted to talk. And I found out later that he'd been trying to explain to Mom for awhile that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to force me to attend services and open meetings if I didn't want to.

Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
Thomas Jefferson, 1787


"

And now you know....the rest....of the story.  ::boohoo:: Thanks Ging, for filling in the blanks.


I agree with Don Taws. A person has to make their own spiritual choices. I've never forced my kids to go to church, but I did encourage and model it. Today they attend with us sometimes. I'm a happy camper.

Shannon and I went to see Don (Pastor/Bible Teacher in High School) about 5 years ago. He lives a bit south of Asheville, NC. I tracked him down because I wanted to tell him I was grateful for the fine example of Godly living he modeled when he was my teacher. I wanted him to know that his energy spent trying to get through to me when I was in school was not wasted, and that the 'seeds' he had planted had at last sprouted.

He and his wife had just returned from the funeral of their Daughter, Kiki. (bee sting), he had a cast on his broken ankle, and he was battling cancer. He said 'God is good' a few times that weekend, and meant it. He jumped up Sunday morning and taught his regular Sunday School class. I needed to see what a genuine Christian looks like after a long term journey, and with trials. His enthusiasm for The Lord was even stronger than it had been 25 years earlier! I am glad Shannon went with me to meet them as well.

I strongly disagree, however, with T. Jefferson. I believe a newspaper needs an editor, proof readers and other such government in order to stay on task. ::cheers::  to remove our conscious contact with God. I plead lysdexia! [ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-02-12 14:49 ]

Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on February 12, 2005, 06:15:00 PM
Thom, you do have a good sense of humor, just like Ginger told me you did.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Thom on February 12, 2005, 07:17:00 PM
::burger::  (why the burger?...I don't know, ...I hate to see it just sitting there, going to waste..oh great now I'm hungry again!.....are you going to eat it?)

_________________
later, Thom

I think I know where I got off track! I thought the 11th step said 'Sought through beer and medication to remove our conscious contact w/ God...I plead lysdexia![ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-02-12 16:26 ]

Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Thom on February 12, 2005, 07:19:00 PM
I sense the emoticons don't work in 'signatures' :???: [ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-02-12 18:38, but he wasn't happy with it still, so ][ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-02-12 18:40 ]
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Antigen on February 12, 2005, 08:55:00 PM
No, I don't think they do.

I'm sorry to hear about Kiki. She was such a nice person. Heather used to call Vicki that, so I've thought of her often over the years.

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark.  The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.  
--Plato

Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on February 12, 2005, 09:59:00 PM
:nworthy:
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 01:48:00 AM
I've done so much since the seed, but I'm not happy. I never get a day off either. I'm always working and Fornit's Workshop is always trying to hack me. You know sooner or later they could get their poor little eyes giyged out or even get their toungues cut out of their mouths. I consider you all just prisoners in another cult. :smokin:
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Tony Stark on February 13, 2005, 06:14:00 AM
How in this world could anyone forget not to give up the faith.Even a tiny bit of no doubt in the heart. Anything is and was possible. That's no government secret. I've even grown a mustard tree outside of my house because later on I found Heaven in my Holy Temple of God. It's scriptural too. Scripture was often spoke of but only encouraged reading. But to be a man is harder than to be a useless human. To become as humble as a child all over again and recieve something that was bought by Christ. The sower. My soul, and my life's work only for HIM. That's all the necklace was a bible verse. :smokin:

Don't sweat the
Petty Things

Don't pet the
Sweaty Things

Water what you want to grow.
--Curiosity



_o.k. what should I grow. I'm an orphan and I don't know where my mother is.________________
"This is a Republic"-Miguel Reese, My VA Man.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 08:14:00 AM
Anyone remember the Tropical Park days?  I started my Seed life there.  Loved that place.  Was always happiest when I got selected to play security.  Anyone remember Mike L and where he may be now?
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 08:31:00 AM
I graduated from Tropical Park, relapsed and then went to SR 84 for a year.  I have nothing but great memories of the Seed.  My name is Mitchell Levy and I was from Buffalo, NY.  Pete B from N Miami Beach and Guy from Saginaw, MI were my two buddies the first time around.  The 2nd time a bunch of us lived at some apartment complex in Ft Laud.  Many of us worked at Carruth Roofing or in my case I ended up working at Massey-Yardley Dodge with another graduate the second time around.  I miss the Seed.  It was a great time in my life.  Anyone know where Mike Langberg is?  Exactly when did the Seed close down for good???
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on February 13, 2005, 09:20:00 AM
2001 or 2202.  The name of the apts were Stranhan Apts(I think).
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: GregFL on February 13, 2005, 09:30:00 AM
Welcome Mitchel Levy!

Glad you found the forum. I usually ask new posters to tell us a seed story, something that happened that sticks in your mind.

We look forward to your participation.
Title: successfull seed graduates
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 12:46:00 PM
The Seed officially closed, filing its corporate dissolution and plan of distribution on the 501(c)(3) assets on October 1,2001.