Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 28, 2005, 01:02:00 PM
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How did you tell you teenager or child about the Seed? How did you explain it to your boyfriend/girlfriend before getting married or into a serious relationship? If you explained it as a "drug rehab" they thought you were a heroin user, if you explained it as a cult or brainwashing they thought you were nuts. How did you explain to people you loved, years later , who had no idea of what the seed was, how strange it was and try to give the best accurate description you could? Or, did you just not tell about it at all? What was their reaction if you did tell them?
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Wow, that?s a lot of questions! I don?t have children, so I can?t answer from a mother?s perspective. I am however, a proud aunt and have talked to a couple of my nieces about this. For me, I don?t bring this up with children and teenagers unless there is an opening, a way that I can help them understand what?s happening in their own lives. When my niece was uncovering memories of past child abuse and having suicidal thoughts, I talked about my own similar experiences and how I worked through them. I told her about the rape, the hopelessness, all of it, in an effort to bring her hope that no matter what others do to us, we can survive, we can heal, we can be fulfilled.
As to partners? and for that matter, any friend or family member, I have waited until I knew them well enough to feel secure that they would not judge me based on my past experience. Their reactions: Always the same, anger, sadness, disbelief that something like The Seed could flourish, and support.
Hope that helps a bit.
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I met my husband only a couple of years after the Program. I was still pretty twitchy; enough that I really had to explain why.
...it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored."
Milton Friedman
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I married a Seed graduate, 3 yrs out of the program so there was never any 'splaining to do. When our son reached his pre-teens and started to explore his rebellious side, we both spoke very candidly to him of our experiences. He's smart and fortunately understood. Incidently, my ex really didn't need to be there, but doesn't harbor ill feelings either.
I was very fucked up and grateful to have come through it all alive! I've always been forthcoming with serious relationships, as I'm very proud of my accomplishments and want to share the experience w/ my friends and others. I like to surround myself w/ intelligent, strong, self-realized people so, it's always been a hoot to discuss my "boot camp days" at the Seed - it makes for great conversation, you know?
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I wasn't in the Seed, but I was in it's sister-program, Straight, Inc. For myself, I just explained by giving examples. I'd frequently have to explain a "tick" I had, or what I call one of my episodes (PTSD) to my husband.
Nightmares about people trying to ?get? me, or take away my life or my freedom, could be explained because of my program incarcerations. Eighteen years later, I still have these.
The best call is to know as much as you possibly can about what happened to you. Know that you were emotionally, physically, and psychologically manipulated and controlled against your will, and why. Methods, processes, intentions and outcomes ? understand it all. The more we know about what happened to us all, (and continues to happen to children in the US and abroad) the more we can explain our tragedy to our loved ones and the public in general, if need be. Knowledge is power.
My daughter knows fully at the age of 14 what happened to me. She knows enough to recognize it if she were to ever be in a similar circumstance against her will, God forbid. My husband understands completely.
We were not in Drug rehabs. That was only their marketing name.
Come to the woods, for here is rest. There is no repose like that of the green deep woods. Here grow the wallflower and the violet. The squirrel will come and sit upon your knee, the logcock will wake you in the morning. Sleep in forgetfulness of all ill. Of all the upness accessible to mortals, there is no upness comparable to the mountains.
-- John Muir
_________________
EST (Lifespring) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. ~ Edmund Burke
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My first wife never got it. I told her it was a bad experience but I couldn´t effectively convey the way it was. Plus, she equated drugs with the seed so she just never understood.
I came out to my kids about 5 years ago, which is hard when you are trying to raise kids that don´t use drugs to tell them you were in a drug rehab. I just explained exactly what happened, what led me to that point, how bad it was for me, and I promised them they would never be sent away to a place like that.
Suprisingly they got it much better than the ex. Nowadays I tell the women I dated when the relationship progresses far enough, and I present it in the manner of something that happened to me a long time ago...they usually think it is interesting conversation.
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I think the important thing is to tell the truth about your experience. You can't sugar-coat it to make it easier for you to speak about. I thnk I told my son after I finally began to understand to long-term effects of what had happened to me. Telling him about the bases of my reasoning (flawed as it was) helped me explain the whys and whats of decisions I made over the years that have affected his life.
I have tired my best to put the information out there so that my son can learn from my mistakes -learn not to follow the pack and to think for himself. Being truthful about what happened to me about the choices I made as a teen and young adult has also made it easier, I hope, for him learn from my mistakes to the greatest extent possible.
My first husband used the information to abuse and debase me. I didn't really speak much about it to anyone else after that experience. Husband number 2, however, has been caring and supportive and would never use the information to hurt me. In fact, he likes to read along on the forum so he can see what I'm up to. And I think it's great for both of them to see where exactly, some of my previously twisted ways of thinking began. The truth will set you free.
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I was very up-front with my two oldest girls, they knew I was a recovering alcoholic and I related what happened to me in high school in terms of a warning along the lines that, "it runs in the family / its in the genes" as when I researched and found that there a number of alcoholics in my grandparents generation (mother's side)and the fact that three of their uncles were in AA as well. I told them that I had done just about every drug that was out there and got hooked on a couple, and I could advise them on this, friends, peer pressure, "boys", screwing up & doing good. It provoked more than a few conversations / discussions. But I had to realize (and come to accept) that they had to make their own mistakes & do their own "research" on the subject, hopefully they'll pull through, I pray, offer it up to my higher power, try to be there for them, but know my limitations. As to the "general public" ie friends, co-workers, etc.., I am selective about who & what I say & to what extent I relate my background. Alot of it depends on the person & their background. There are very few people in todays world that have not either done drugs, have family members, sons, daughters, sisters, brothers or know people in their lives that have not been touched by it. I cetainly don't hide it, I embrace it, after all it is a big part of who I am. You either learn from the past or you are destined to repeat it (as they say)I can attest to that personally.
Chris Lewis
Seed 74-75
AA - 91 -...
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I have to say that, thru this site, I have been able to clarify for me what the experience was. Now I have a bigger vocabulary to understand what the Seed was, why I was there, what I gained and lost from the experience.
I used to feel so weird about it. I remember telling a girlfriend about it, and she looked at me like I had suddenly turned green. Or maybe I just felt that way. Anyway, if I tell people I was in a cult, or a drug rehab, or a boot camp, or 'AA for kids,' nothing really describes what it was. Or what it is for kids in current programs.
My current wife accepted the info, said it must have been a difficult experience, and let it go at that. I have been in correspondance with people who briefly posted on this site, only to stop when a spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend told them it was 'weird.' I feel sorry for them, that they cannot continue to learn about this part of their life. But I understand too...
It's especially difficult to explain the Seed experience, because it was meant to 'change the world,' and we believed it, if only for a while.
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I don't recall either my wife or kids asking many questions or being especially interested in my being in the seed. I started dating my wife about 3 years after I graduated the program and my general feelings towards the program, though mixed, were more positive back then. They were much more interested in hearing about the short time I went to prison. I tend to lump that whole period of my life in together as one big unpleasant experience. Prison, seed then probation.
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When I first got my life together as a teen I told just about everyone about the Seed. I felt great about being able to change my life around. Now I am more selective about who I tell. I have learned through the years that some people will use whatever they can against you later.
The few people I now tell about my experiences don't think I am wierd. I now know that people can't really understand all of the things that I learned at the Seed so I keep it very basic.
For me it was a very positive experience. I know some of you will not agree but that is how I feel about it. I spent many years there and I do see some things that were not perfect, but nothing in life is perfect. I just know it worked for me and still does today. :smile:
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How many years?
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Over 30
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What I also meant to say is that people are not perfect and mistakes are made. I think everyone tried to do whatever they thought was right at the time.
I also noticed how lots of you from St. Pete had to wear your Seed T-Shirts and license plates on your cars. We were told not to wear our t-shirts to school because you could provoke the other kids. I never wore mine except for to the Seed for meetings.
I could see how you would get hassled by so many kids in High School. I know I did and did not even get hassled by my old friends. They were only the people I didn't even know. Somehow I guess they found out I was from the Seed.
Anyway I hope everyone has a nice 4th.
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Wow. Over thirty years. That is a long time!
Please tell me, are you new to this forum or a previous poster.
IF you are new, welcome and please tell us a story from your time there.
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I have posted a few times.
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Well, great to have you here.
Please think about picking a username and tell us a story!
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I met my wife 5 yrs. after graduating from the Seed. When the topic of drug use eventualy came up i just explained that I had my fill of that life years before, and the story of drug rehab was discussed at some point, but no big deal. My kids know some of what went on way back then but never have asked for specifics. It's been 32 yrs. now,yes Greg, your era, and from Lakewood,but I never have had to answer any tough questions from anyone really, even the military let me in, and b
boot camp was worse than 1st phase.
Later fellow Seedlings...ha
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So I guess we know each other, eh?
I would love a chat. Send me a private message. The button is to the left in red.
Looking foward to it!
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I would agree with you on one point about boot camp. The abuse was greater, but there were differences...
First, you got your fill of food and sleep, even if you got in bed at nine and got up at daybreak.
second, you were older and there voluntarily.
Third, you were there for a set amount of time. You knew the day the torture would end, and you never had the threat of returning to boot camp held over you head.
Lastly, and maybe most importantly, you had contact with and the support of your family. You could write them letters...they and you had a common goal..
these and other differences in my opinion made the experiance much different than the involuntary commitment to the seed.
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Yeah, I'd take 6 wks of boot camp over 2 years of daily mindfuck anyday.
The introduction of a Creator has done our independence no good.
--Gore Vidal, author
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For years I just told people I had been in a drug rehab when I was 12.
As I aged, and got farther away from the threat of being thrown back in, I realized that the seed was weird and started to tell stories about it, mostly for entertainment value. I recognized that some of the things we did and believed there were off the chart, but I still bought the, Iwouldhavebeendeadinainsanasilumorprison, soft shoe. It wasn?t until I was 25 and telling a friend about myself before the seed that I started to think about it more deeply. I was saying, ?I was so weak there was nothing to me.? She disagreed saying, ? any eleven year old girl who manages to keep a bunch of high school boys from having intercourse with her while she is stoned or drunk is not weak.? I corrected her saying,?Oh, I was never stoned or drunk,? and would have just gone on talking from there but she stopped, stunned. ?I always assumed from what you said that you were drug addicted back then,? she said. She was so shocked that I began to wonder. Thus I began considering the possibility that I may have been, among other things, miss diagnosed. I guess all those years I was telling people Rasputin tales about the seed they assumed I was shooting up between my toes at 11.
My guy got it every step of the way with me. I told him pretty soon after we got together with out any fear that he would be freaked out. He?s a peach.
That?s a good point about boot camp. You know when it?s over. Even after I graduated it wasn?t safe for me to say anything negative about the seed or displease my parents until the seed left town. Still, when I was in college, and there was a period of disagreement between us I became fearful that they where going to lock me up in a mental institution. I thought at the time that it was a strange fear, but later it made sense.
On a related note I used to have this problem where I felt compelled to tell everyone everything, not specifically about the seed but a sort of full life confessional; it was particularly rough on people I had just met at parties. My close friendships all had a tendency to be very intense, HONEST, processing-- then they would explode. Until I was in my late twenties my friendships usually ended like breakups. I had to learn to retain my autonomy socially. I had to learn that not all problems could be solved with honest confrontation. Some of this is my personality, I still enjoy saying things just over the line and I have a different sense of what is private than many people but I used to feel it was the only way to have real relationships, which was, I believe, a compulsion I learned at the seed.
When I explained my seedling past to my pug she tilted her head first to the right then the left and stared at me with her globe brown eyes? still not sure how to interpret that. But I get the feeling she doesn?t judge me.
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"I used to have this problem where I felt compelled to tell everyone everything, not specifically about the seed but a sort of full life confessional" My close friendships all had a tendency to be very intense, HONEST, processing-- then they would explode, usually ended like breakups. I had to learn to retain my autonomy socially." Jesus can I relate, this one took me a looonnnggg time to figure out. And now just starting to date again after my 22 year marriage ended a little over a year ago I am having to re-learn this all over again, and you hit it right on the head Not12now, I also found it almost like a compulsion, when I started to realize it was not always the right way to handle things I had to almost force myself to hold my tongue. I finally had to realize that very few people have actually done any sort of work on self or self -examination and even fewer folks have done it with a halfway honest eye... I chased off (literally) three ladies because within the first few dates I felt like I had to relate my entire life experience(s), I never have been very good at that patience thing. You know what is even worse (& I can hear the come-downs already!!!) was learning HOW to play games again with the women that I am dating. You know... wait 2 days to call, always leave them wanting more, don't say too much about how you feel, play or act nonchalant, don't always say yes, be mysterious... YEAH I know it is a bunch of crap, BUT you know what? It works, unbelieveable but true. All the crap you see on Lifetime about women in the 40's wanting a "good man" who is touch with his feelings... it's a lie! So far from what I have experienced the succesful ladies in their 40's are busy with their careers or families or kids, etc...so far it has not left a lot of room for me, anyway Wah Wah Wah :cry2:
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If and when I've ever chosen to tell friends about my time at the Seed, I've explained that it was based on AA principles, only more confrontational. Chris has a valid point, most people in the general population have not performed any type of self-examination so they don't understand, even the basic concept of a l2 step program. I recently had to explain to someone what the basis for AA and Al-Anon are, at 34 she'd never heard of Al-Anon and didn't know what it was for or about, odd, I figured everyone knew about those kinds of programs.
My ex-husband was in the Seed and my kids generally know what we both did as teens and we left it at that. However, we both missed the boat with them, they were both smoking pot under our noses and we didn't have a clue. I think kids today are substantially sneakier than they were when we teens, plus they didn't go overboard, particularly like their father, and they both told me after they decided it wasn't for them. Oddly they both felt guilty keeping such a secret from me and had to come clean and let me know. My oldest tried it a few times and didn't like it at all, so he quit, and my youngest had a teacher who expressed disapproval and disappointment (wonder why she never called on that one, she called about everything else!!), that plus the military was good reason to quit for him. Now drinking for them is something else, baby alcoholics in the making, hopefully time and maturity will fix that one, cause I certainly can't and won't try.
Generally though, people once they find out that I'm an only child attribute everything they know or think they know about me, to me being an only child and in their mind that explains everything. That and since we all wear different game faces for different people and places, no one really knows us but ourselves.
As an aside to Chris, I've found this dating thing to be weird too. Flirting (game playing) in your 40s is odd and half the time if a man is flirting, I miss it, friends have had to knock me upside the head and tell me what's going on, probably some throw back to the Seed I'm sure. As for flirting myself, truly odd, after having been married forever and now divorced. Makes me want to pull the blankie up over my head and take a long nap.
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I agree with previous posters that after I left the Seed, I had this compulsion to confess. After a while though, I began to realize that I could pick and choose what I wanted to share about myself with others, but I still felt a little guilty about it. Actually, since I was still searching for answers and used to attend Al-Anon and ACOA, I began to hate the compulsive self-disclosure that is a part of those programs too. I began to hate hearing people identify as their problem - "Hi, I'm Mary and I am a compulsive eater and survivor of ritual abuse." It felt like false intimacy and victimhood and also, I started to question the dogma - so I would leave the meetings and stop and have a drink! (I realize that is not for everyone, but for me, moderation is the key).
As far as dating - Jeez, I know I was like a weird, anxious, sweaty mess at first. I remember telling some girl that I met about the Seed and I felt like a serial killer. Later I learned to be discreet, and also to have female friends that I could trust. (When I first left the Seed I 'fell in love' with the first girl who would talk to me!)
I did get married post-Seed to someone who was kind of nutty, but after ten years we divorced and I was dating again. I actually did some internet dating to build my confidence, since I am very awkward sometimes at the 'flirting' with a stranger part. Good luck, Chris!
See, I still want to disclose too much! It's an issue, I guess.
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On 2005-10-19 21:09:00, ChrisL wrote:
it's a lie! So far from what I have experienced the succesful ladies in their 40's are busy with their careers or families or kids, etc...so far it has not left a lot of room for me, anyway Wah Wah Wah :scared: :skull: :rofl: :wink:
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It's about damned time, Greg! How long did you think you could string her along, anyway? LOL
Good luck to you both. I bet it'll work out just fine. After all, who wouldn't prefer Middle Earth, unless they've been corrupted by a Ring of Power?
Jeff Elkins; Tolkien's Libertarian Vision
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I keep coming back to this site because it encapsulates so perfectly some of my issues from another TBS. One problem I had was relating to people outside CEDU or ever feeling like I had deep friendships because we were so overexposed and bonded through highly intense, manipulative, contrived experiences that every other relationship seemed trite by comparison. I rarely thought anything was deep enough or "real" enough to merit my interest post-CEDU, but I never realized until now that my expectations were warped after that experience. How do you relate to "civilians" after you went through an emotional war of sorts with your peers in the program.
When I married (to my now ex) six years ago, and I tried to tell him my experience, he looked at me like I had three heads... he had never heard of such a thing. He had the proverbial white picket fence life. (The funny thing is, he is more fucked up than many, but you know what they say about normal people being people you just don't know very well.)
Anyway, dating for me always seemed kind of boring. I always wished I was the kind of girl who became easily infatuated (distracted) but most of the time, I would rather read a book then feign an interest in trite bullshit and regularity. On the other hand, men who are more introspective and layered tend to be more complicated as well.
But Chris, it's not a lie. Most of my friends who dated the bad boys ended up marrying the nice guys and are happy to have come to their senses.
I've always been more a lightening strikes person, so I think all those dating rules are bullshit when you meet the right one at the right time. Why wait for two days if you don't want to? I've never had a serious relationship with someone where we both knew all those stupid rules don't qualify the minute we met. And I've never wasted my time if either one of us is half assed.
Anyway, there are many experiences in my life that in way, makes me feel a bit disconnected from people, but always yearning for something meaningful. It's probably due to a confluence of factors, but I think one of them was attending CEDU.
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Me too Shanlea. I have posted about this before, and it seems a common trait that we adults that attended these various synanon style programs have.
That is, we seem to expect too much from other people, we tend to tell people things about us they haven't earned the right to know, and when people dissapoint us over things that to others just seem so common, we dismiss our friendships with them or tell them off in a way that seems extreme to them.
I have noticed this trait in adult seed and straight attendees, and it is not a normal way to socialize with people. Once I identified this trait in myself, I have worked to remove it, but it is admittedly hard.
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But it's not just Seedlings or just ppl who spent time in Synanon type groups. I've seen the same sort of thing in ppl who have an abusive, over controling family member or romantic interest.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
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quote "I've always been more a lightening strikes person, so I think all those dating rules are bullshit when you meet the right one at the right time. Why wait for two days if you don't want to? I've never had a serious relationship with someone where we both knew all those stupid rules don't qualify the minute we met. And I've never wasted my time if either one of us is half assed."...
My problem (or is it?) is that at this point in my life (48) I don't feel like I have all the time in the world (left) to wait for "lightning" to strike. I also am not so sure that is really the best thing, i.e. the romantic concept that you meet someone and "you just know" or "things click" I mean I am pretty romantic for a guy and I am more interested in a good friend as well as a good toss, but I am not so sure that "lightning is going to strike again?. I also felt like I should "act my age" and date age appropriate ladies, but I really have to agree with Greg that so far anyway most of the ladies I have dated in their 40's & 50's (early) have a fair amount of baggage or pre-concieved notions of the way things should be / ought to be and quite frankly seem much more uptight about things. I just feel like I am much more open about my feelings than the ladies I have been seeing, and when I express myself they shut down. So I am back to simply pursueing good friendships, I figure a good friend (female) to spend time & enjoy things with is better than going it alone. Thanks for the advice & feedback I appreciate all the different perspectives. & I can use all the help I can get!!
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I never tell anybody or have tried to even explain the SEED or the other programs because I thought nobody would believe me. I told the military and they understood me. Put myself on the excemption program and got a waiver. But still I never discuss it but here.
...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana
is its effect on the degenerate races.
Harry Anslinger
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When did this become the Woody Allen whine site?
Why are a string of posters now writing about how we are so much more versed in dealing with our feelings then people who haven?t shared our experiences? Isn't that a little vain? You can't assume someone isn't in touch with their own emotions simply because they don't want to hear about yours, or don't want to hear about yours on the first date.
We began by talking about tell all compulsions--compulsions don't indicate self knowledge any more than bleeding all over someone does.
When I was young and naive I thought men who exposed all, right away, were deep and complex along with their cousins the, tell nothing, mystery men but I learned to see these behaviors as warning signs. Signs of relationships I should avoid. Not because I am deluged with baggage but because I am fucking smart. In relationships I looked for men who were strait with me, turn me on, were fun and have the patience to let a relationship develop (all traits my partner has in spades.) A ?toss, that was easy anyone who turned me on was fair game for that.?
It?s no big secret relationships need oxygen to ignite. Don?t blame women and their baggage. Blame god/evolution whatever but give us a break.
Please guys stop with the senior section bit. It?s insulting to us divas, of all ages and you don?t want to upset a full-grown goddess do you? I?ll say this, and if you guys quit it, I?ll say no more. I am a better partner at forty they I was at thirty. I am emotionally more flexible, have less preconceive notions about men and relationships, oh and one last thing my sexual skills, power, and enjoyment are something to behold.
Oh and if you don?t quit you will force me to start a ?benefits of younger men? thread just for revenge. I am serious this gun is loaded.
A little hint, by the way, younger woman aren?t without baggage they are just less likely to know what?s in it.
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Hey 12, funny stuff. I'm in my 30s. And you're right about the younger women having baggage, but not knowing what's in it. I'm definitely more knowledgeable than in my 20s although sometimes,I miss that blissful ignorance. I will say I am much more emotionally flexible and better at giving good love than when I was younger. And certainly, the I've had the best sex of my life in my thirties.
And younger men? Well, things ended recently after a year with a guy in his twenties. I really enjoyed being with a younger man for many reasons but the "not knowing what's in the baggage" seems to apply to young men, too. But God, I'll miss him!
Shanlea
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On 2005-10-22 15:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
And younger men? Well, things ended recently after a year with a guy in his twenties.
:cry: Sorry to hear it.This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
--John Adams, U.S. President
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:rofl: true dat!
I think it's about finding someone who you like, who likes you, wants what you have and has what you want.
It's really pretty simple. I think it's actually a bit less risky as you get older, though it may not seem so because you develop an aversion to risk. Most often the young ones 'want' list includes access to already born children, access to what they foolishly believe is the only source of satisfactory sex, etc. I don't know. I guess I wouldn't want to be in the market at my age. But then again, I do envy the freedom my single friends have. In God's wildness lies the hope of the world x the great fresh unblighted, unredeemed wilderness. The galling harness of civilization drops off, and wounds heal ere we are aware.
-- John Muir
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Yeah, me too, Antigen, me too. It's very difficult to relocate with children in my county. It would have been an ugly, costly, and probably futile mess.
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Yeah, you know what I'm talkin' about. If you just get an urge to go for a walk all alone, how many other people have to approve your plans? Me? Four or so. Single people? Nobody, you don't even think of it. You're free! Maybe lonely at times, and burdoned w/ the onus of remedying that. But free none the less.
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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God I don't know what I would do without romance. Without either the lightening sriking or the hope of it. I'm 33, and still I'm thinking I don't want to get married unless it's with someone that I'm madly in love with, and who's madly in love with me. And I don't really care if I'm single for the rest of my life! I won't settle for anything less. I spend a lot of time looking back at the boys I have loved, and try to sort through what happened. I want to learn from those relationships, but I will never be with someone just because I think I should like them or they are nice. I don't even know what "Bad boys" or "nice boys" means. I love who I love. Maybe I am blind, I don't really know.
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On 2005-10-19 21:09:00, ChrisL wrote:
""I chased off (literally) three ladies because within the first few dates I felt like I had to relate my entire life experience(s), I never have been very good at that patience thing. "
I'm just curious, was this that sort of feeling of if you don't tell them everything then they will probably think you are being dishonest by not telling them? I have struggled with that at times too but wondered if that's what happened here or if it was some other reason since you mentioned patience.
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When I said bad boys, I meant boys who did not treat my friends well.
I know what you mean about romance. The whole lightning strikes thing. It would be hard for me to accept a relationship with someone nice just for companionship. But maybe that's just because my last relationship was pretty intoxicating. (Incidentally, he was also in the same program I was in at a different time, and felt the same way about it. So we shared that common draw.)
But the thing about sexual interest. It seems to me that men(please correct me if I'm wrong) are more easily sexually interested and thus, have more options. Good looks doesn't necessarily do it for me, and certainly not money. The guy who wanted to marry me before I married my ex was great looking, a great friend, and well off, but I wasn't attracted to him. He felt like my brother. I would have killed to feel the slightest bit of sexual interest in him just because in every other way he was my best friend.
(And yes, he did know about the program and never judged me.)
Ideally, you should be with someone you jibe with enough to share these aspects of your life freely, but maybe you have to suss out first what to share and when, and if the person even has the emotional complexity to understand it. That might sound snotty, but the truth is, I've met a lot of people who just wouldn't get it. And there is nothing worse than feeling lonely WITH the person you're supposed to feel bonded to.
shanlea
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:wstupid: :wstupid:
Oh and if you don?t quit you will force me to start a ?benefits of younger men? thread just for revenge. I am serious this gun is loaded.
"
Hehe....go right ahead. We all know young men have a hair trigger sexually, no sense of style or knowledge of women, and to top it off displaced anger issues.
Benefits?
I don't think so. But you are dead on about the seguay into the fantasy that people from the "outside" aren't in touch with their emotions as much as people who went thru synanon style treatment. That is just a self promoted fantasy that was drilled into our heads so much, some of us still believe it.
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On 2005-10-22 18:34:00, Antigen wrote:
"Yeah, you know what I'm talkin' about. If you just get an urge to go for a walk all alone, how many other people have to approve your plans? Me? Four or so. Single people? Nobody, you don't even think of it. You're free! Maybe lonely at times, and burdoned w/ the onus of remedying that. But free none the less.
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
"
And that in a nutshell is what I am struggling with right now. It is wonderfull to have a partner, I have even started taking an interest in my house again. I am not lonely ever, but man, that freedom thing, even the freedom to read a magazine without being asked rapid fire questions every time you get to the point where you are connected to the topic!
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Eh, ya get used to it.
If we choose to violate the rights of the innocent in order to discover and act against the guilty, then we have transformed our country into a police state and abandoned one of the fundamental tenants of a free society. In order to win the war on drugs, we must not sacrifice the life of the Constitution in the battle.
--US District Judge H. Lee Sarokin
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Well, not trying to put a damper on the young girl/old girl discussion...however, we all have baggage by the time we reach and mature into our middle-age years. For me, now it's just a matter of whether I carry it with me everywhere I go, stumbling and fumbling about trying to keep up with it all - or, if I can, leave it behind.
I have one really true and kind friend - and she has helped me along this path - and so have the participants in this forum. But the fact that she's not ever been in any kind of program at all showed me that regular people have the same kinds of problems and disconnects and yet, they seem to get through the trials and tribulations without blowing up their worlds. This has gone a long way towards helping me normalize and de-sensitize (my reactions) in my other personal and professional relationships.
Once I started to understand I had just as much baggage as the "unacceptable" men I was dating, my quest changed from trying find that perfect someone (no baggage/no problems) to finding someone who could accept me and mine and whose baggage I did not mind tripping over now and again. Not that I was searching out any hurting person to save mind you, I just recognized that I was no "pic-a-nic" to be with either.
Proud to say I am on my second marriage now and we are making it work. The first was in 1982-84 and was not good for either party. The second did not happen until 1997. I took a significant break between for several reasons - mostly because I was in college, developing a career and raising a child and I was not willing to let my responsibility to my family take precedenece over the needs of a date "to be spontaneous." Here's cute dating story for those of you with other responsibilites (ie family, job, school): I actually had one guy tell me the reason he could not see me anymore was because I could not be spontaneous. That line might actually have been a credible breakup line given the amount of stuff that was going on in my life (school, job, family) had it not been for the fact that his idea of spontaneity was going to his house to watch television when he rang me up onthe phone.
It did take a while for me to find a person who could accept me and my family as well as my seed-induced bullshit. Believe me when I say my "issues" still come up and most recently it has shown itself in the form of instant and complete rejection for seemingly minor transgressions. Again, all related to losing house and home in last year's hurricane - for lack of a better term, the events caused me to regress to what I consider the most negative of seed-induced behaviors - the ability to judge, judge harshly, and then walkaway. Really stupid behavior on my part.
Stress and upheaval seem to be the factors the cause me to fall back into old patterns. But I find it is much less frequent as time goes by. That, and I have to make a real effort not to fall back into stupid behavior when the going gets tough. Just because I have been X-way for 30 years doesn't necessarily make it right. I have had to learn to be more accepting of the human foibles in myself, my loved ones, my friends, my neighbors, the FEMA workers - everyone. I am nowhere near perfect and admittedly can be a big ass at times, but I do enjoy the challenge of learning to be a loving human being and not function on the automaton level.
And Greg, relax man ! It will be okay. RELAXXXX :grin: [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-10-23 12:12 ]
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"That is, we seem to expect too much from other people, we tend to tell people things about us they haven't earned the right to know, and when people dissapoint us over things that to others just seem so common, we dismiss our friendships with them or tell them off in a way that seems extreme to them."
Greg - this is exactly what I am dealing with right now... & it is difficult, also as an answer to a later posed question. I think part of my "compulsion" (or not) to spill my guts up front (or early on) was to see if the person was going to run away or not... I also have no allusions about myself I am a very difficult person to live with... just ask my two x's... But in all seriousness I like the idea that Stripe proposes about finding someone who doesn't mind the baggage rather than not having any...
I am a hopeless romantic and I will not give up
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Exactly... we all have baggage. AS long as someone is good, and loving and true (and right for you) I think we can all be a little more understanding about accepting eachother's baggage and maybe helping to lighten the load.
And that is one thing that seems to get better with age. More emotional flexibilty. I know in my past relationship some things I shared kept getting thrown back in my face when it was in the past when the person I dated had more baggage that I didn't feel the need to keep redressing.
Shanlea
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On 2005-10-23 19:14:00, ChrisL wrote:
""That is, we seem to expect too much from other people, we tend to tell people things about us they haven't earned the right to know, and when people dissapoint us over things that to others just seem so common, we dismiss our friendships with them or tell them off in a way that seems extreme to them."
Greg - this is exactly what I am dealing with right now... & it is difficult, also as an answer to a later posed question. I think part of my "compulsion" (or not) to spill my guts up front (or early on) was to see if the person was going to run away or not... I also have no allusions about myself I am a very difficult person to live with... just ask my two x's... But in all seriousness I like the idea that Stripe proposes about finding someone who doesn't mind the baggage rather than not having any...
I am a hopeless romantic and I will not give up
"
Oh so maybe it's good that you did since it seems they couldn't deal with it?? Just a thought. I think for me whenever I do that it's because I'm afraid of lying or something. Thankfully it's not very often anymore that I get that urge.
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On 2005-10-23 19:14:00, ChrisL wrote:
I am a hopeless romantic and I will not give up
Oh, no need to go to drastic talk like that now, darlin! If I were single, I'd certainly want to at least meet you for lunch.
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth.
--Mohandas K. Gandhi
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On 2005-10-22 21:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"When I said bad boys, I meant boys who did not treat my friends well.
I know what you mean about romance. The whole lightning strikes thing. It would be hard for me to accept a relationship with someone nice just for companionship. But maybe that's just because my last relationship was pretty intoxicating. (Incidentally, he was also in the same program I was in at a different time, and felt the same way about it. So we shared that common draw.)
But the thing about sexual interest. It seems to me that men(please correct me if I'm wrong) are more easily sexually interested and thus, have more options. Good looks doesn't necessarily do it for me, and certainly not money. The guy who wanted to marry me before I married my ex was great looking, a great friend, and well off, but I wasn't attracted to him. He felt like my brother. I would have killed to feel the slightest bit of sexual interest in him just because in every other way he was my best friend.
(And yes, he did know about the program and never judged me.)
Ideally, you should be with someone you jibe with enough to share these aspects of your life freely, but maybe you have to suss out first what to share and when, and if the person even has the emotional complexity to understand it. That might sound snotty, but the truth is, I've met a lot of people who just wouldn't get it. And there is nothing worse than feeling lonely WITH the person you're supposed to feel bonded to.
shanlea
"
Oh I see what you mean about bad boys. But who really likes to be treated badly?? I've never understood that whole idea that certain women like to be mistreated. Eventually it gets old, I think it's more a matter of getting to know the person and realizing that aren't who you thought. Then it's time to move on.
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No one really likes to be treated badly and most of the time it's more insidious and takes awhile to figure out.
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Greg said "BTW, my girlfriend moved in with me on Wednsday. Flew back with me from Colombia,"
Mail order bride?
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Greg said, "Hehe....go right ahead. We all know young men have a hair trigger sexually, no sense of style or knowledge of women, and to top it off displaced anger issues."
Those aren't the benefits I was thinking of.
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ChrisL said He's a hopeless romantic who doesn't want to change.
IDon't see why you should. I didn't and got a great guy. Baggage is baggage we don't have more than most people, were all fucked up, we just need to know whats in ours. I think assessing wether people deserve to know your life is the way to go. It's ok to keep somethings for yourself.
I started wondering if part of the reason we over disclose in stressful situations, like dates. Is that we learned to seduce the staff by dumping, that's what they encouraged. It was a way to make people like us, it kept us safe.
I really get the judgement stuff I hadn't thought of it but I am definately hard on people. I used to sort of fire all my friends every once and a while---to make a fresh start--try to make friendships I thought would be better for me.
_________________
Cleveland chick 76-77
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On 2005-10-24 05:40:00, NOT12NOW wrote:
"Greg said, "Hehe....go right ahead. We all know young men have a hair trigger sexually, no sense of style or knowledge of women, and to top it off displaced anger issues."
Those aren't the benefits I was thinking of.
"
Okay, then how about the lack of money, the propensity to chase around college girls, or the ability to swig large amounts of beer and puke on their shoes, remembering nothing the next day?
:grin:
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On 2005-10-24 05:53:00, NOT12NOW wrote:
I think assessing wether people deserve to know your life is the way to go. It's ok to keep somethings for yourself.
I started wondering if part of the reason we over disclose in stressful situations, like dates Is that we learned to seduce the staff by dumping, that's what they encouraged. It was a way to make people like us, it kept us safe.
I really get the judgement stuff I hadn't thought of it but I am definately hard on people. I used to sort of fire all my friends every once and a while---to make a fresh start--try to make friendships I thought would be better for me.
_________________
Cleveland chick 76-77"
I think you are onto something here, and
Man o man, me too. I would dismiss a friend and claim that they let me down or that "they didn't treat me the way I treated them" kind of attitude. I way overexpected from friendships and part of it was trying to manipulate people to behave a certain way or I would reject them. I never suspected I learned this behavior in "treatment", but I did.
Nowadays I just take people as they come and let the relationship build based on how the people are, not how I think they should be.
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I did not need to.
They did not ask.
If they did I would tell them all about it.