Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 19, 2005, 08:50:00 AM
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I'm new to this whole Orwellian way of connecting and keep wanting to ask everyone," what do you get out of this?"
I think straight has this way of seeding itself. I was still in straight even after years of knowing I had been brainwashed and supposedly had graduated. Just knowing I was brainwashed did not free me of the brainwashing. It didn't free me of the addiction I developed to straight. It didn't free me of the comfort I found in the absolutist Straight mentality
So is this forum the new straight?
Is this our new way of sharing in group?
Sometimes I read these angry posts and it's like folks are real comfy as the victim. I was messed up. They did this to me so I am this way now. The comfort of being totally sure about your stance is real attractive. Like the stance we adopted in straight," drugs are evil". And now it seems the new way we continue to brainwash ourselves is to build up a new "stance" and say "Straight is evil". Thats just another totalitarian view, a view that seems to give us permission to settle into being helpless angry victims.
Of course straight is evil, but in lots of ways we are still perpetuating the Straight mentality. Abuse is addictive too. Absolute viewpoints are comfortable but require that whole upkeep, the maintinance of brainwashing ourselves to keep reality looking that one certain way.
Having said all of that, I am now glad I went through that.
OK time for review, motivate, get called on, Blast Me!!
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Very, very Straight to disparage anyone being a "victim". Yay for you, still in Straight!
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You are not in Straight. This is not Straight. This is people typing shits on a message board. You are a big fat know-it-all. Fuck off and die.
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I thought the first post was very insightful. The caller seemed to recognize that they are still mentally in Straight, as they think people on a message board are being too judgemental with their constant petty little Straight grievances. Remember getting restrained? Remember losing your identity? Remember the last time you saw your parents, before they took off, probably after they signed the bill to pay to have locked in a private prison? Complain, complain, complain. Like MOST people in America haven't had such a similar experience. Like I couldn't go down to the neighborhood coffee shop and find ten people, at least five, who were also put in brainwash institutions and get some understanding. You people act like this is it, like Straight was SO ORIGINAL. Most people, at one time or another, have been physically forced to be obedient down to the direction in which their eyes are looking, for months at a time.
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On 2005-08-19 06:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Most people, at one time or another, have been physically forced to be obedient down to the direction in which their eyes are looking, for months at a time."
i understand that practically everyone is brainwashed to some degree or another. If your not it's called enlightenment and you are considered by many to be a spiritual master. But i am curious as to where else besides str8 or some spin-off program, people are held against their will, cut off from all communication with the outside world and "physically forced to be obedient down to the direction in which their eyes are looking, for months at a time" The military ?? i see that, still i think that is different because you have to be 18 and you have rights by which to protect yourself and it is voluntary, and the military doesn't dominate all your time the way str8 did. At least not once your through basic training, maybe at West Point or someplace a cadets' time is dominated in a simillar way to a phasers' at str8 but then again that is voluntary and the cadet is older than a phaser, and has had more life experience.
i mean a good part of the reason i come to this board is because i can't seem to find anyone at the corner coffee shop, or most anywhere for that matter, who can relate to my experience in str8. Do you live in the neighborhood of one of the old cults or somethin ?? Please help me to understand what you are sayin'.
Peace.
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I live in a very "Middle America" town. I am dead serious when I say people at the coffee shop know and understand. There are my friends. Everybody there loves me and wants to know my name and my perspective on things like the smell of White Rain shampoo and whether or not it was okay to have the small of your back touching the blue chair. Maybe you haven't reached out for any friendships. What I did to meet these friends is something any one of you could do. I got a little spiral notebook, the kind that flips over at the top, about two inches by three inches. When I got the feeling that somebody could relate to me, I jotted down a little "I want to be friends with you" note. I gave the note to a neutral-looking third party. I used to have a lot of fears that people were spies and would just read the notes and not give them to the right person, even though I really wanted to make friends with people so I could talk about my past. I finally got over my fear, not by trying, but by doing.
Sometimes I come into the coffee shop and I just sit down and cry. That is always a mistake, because people are just falling all over themsleves, literally, to come and be the one to "relate" to me, tell me about a similar experience from their past and how they were working their you-know-whats to just be a real, normal, well-adjusted person. Everyone gathers around, and unlike in Straight, people often clap their hands after someone is done relating to me.
One time I got so frustrated I overturned the coffee table! But some people, the ones who really loved me, took it upon themselves to hold me down on the floor, even though their coffee was getting cold.
Maybe you don't believe "normal" people could or would do that. Sometimes all you gotta do is figure out how they act and act just like it. Don't get any weird expressions on your face in public, in other words.
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Hmmm... i am intrigued. i have had friends for over 10 years that i have told about what it was like to be in str8. i have searched high and low for people who could understand and yet have not found a one except for those who had actually been there. i am inspired by your story. You have given me hope. Part of me though is still doubtful and wonders if you are kidding, even though you said that you were "dead serious"
People held you down on the floor of a coffee shop ??(i'm not sure that i would appreciate that) People often clap after someone has finished relating to you ?? Forgive my mistrust, your post is surreal to me. Please let me know if you are fuckin' with my head. i mean no disrespect. i just don't quite know how to take your words.
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Original Poster, that is the whole point. If people are still confused, if they have the pain still locked up, if they have beliefs about themselves and the world around them that are actually incorrect because they got them from Straight, they want to come here and talk about it with people because they are, in a sense, not out of Straight. Or Straight isn't out of them. I myself have had the experience of having memories come back because of things other people said on this message board, and these memories were very informative, they kind of unwound a certain amount of energy that was tied to something that had happened that was so scary I did not remember it before. It's like we are trying to recreate history to understand it. And like the sign on your history teacher's wall: "Those who forget history are destined to repeat it". Well, another thread is talking about the concept of "acculturation". The thing is, we were not only "acculturated", we were terrified into being part of this Straight culture. I think that might be why it is so hard for people to unlearn, it kind of got frozen in on the level of a survival instinct.
Of course, everyone is different in the ways they reacted to Straight, and in the effects that Straight had on them.
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Yes, be wary of definitions.
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On 2005-08-19 09:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I live in a very "Middle America" town. I am dead serious when I say people at the coffee shop know and understand. There are my friends. Everybody there loves me and wants to know my name and my perspective on things like the smell of White Rain shampoo and whether or not it was okay to have the small of your back touching the blue chair. Maybe you haven't reached out for any friendships. What I did to meet these friends is something any one of you could do. I got a little spiral notebook, the kind that flips over at the top, about two inches by three inches. When I got the feeling that somebody could relate to me, I jotted down a little "I want to be friends with you" note. I gave the note to a neutral-looking third party. I used to have a lot of fears that people were spies and would just read the notes and not give them to the right person, even though I really wanted to make friends with people so I could talk about my past. I finally got over my fear, not by trying, but by doing.
Sometimes I come into the coffee shop and I just sit down and cry. That is always a mistake, because people are just falling all over themsleves, literally, to come and be the one to "relate" to me, tell me about a similar experience from their past and how they were working their you-know-whats to just be a real, normal, well-adjusted person. Everyone gathers around, and unlike in Straight, people often clap their hands after someone is done relating to me.
One time I got so frustrated I overturned the coffee table! But some people, the ones who really loved me, took it upon themselves to hold me down on the floor, even though their coffee was getting cold.
Maybe you don't believe "normal" people could or would do that. Sometimes all you gotta do is figure out how they act and act just like it. Don't get any weird expressions on your face in public, in other words. "
This has got to be a joke. I mean replace coffee shop with the word Straight and it makes more sense. The indirect contact with someone (newcomer vs oldcomer), people falling all over themselves to relate, or the holding of the others down on the floor.
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That's what i thought.
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I cant imagine for a second the coffee shop relating experince. If it happened ok, I'm not calling you a liar or anything, it just seems so damned unrealistic.
Every time I try to explain to people what Straight was like for me, I either get doubt/skepticism, as in, the person either just doesnt get it or is completely unwilling to accept that a place like straight could even exist.
Or, if the person is sympathetic, they still dont "get it" either. Nor have the sympathetic types once shared a similar experience with me.
In almost 20 years, I have never stumbled across one person who beleived me, was willing to listen, and was able to understanding (relate). That is why, for me anyway, this board is so helpful to me. I finally dont have to explain, explain, explain just to get someone to really "get" what Straight was really like.
I dont think posting here always means you're "still in straight", or stuck in victim mentality. Some may be, I don't know. I personally think posting myself and reading other posts gives me insight that I need and have never found anywhere else.
::rainbow::
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The anonymous postor who was referring to the coffee shop is a liar or is joking in all words. Here's why:
He/she was referring to a hopeful incident throughout all of the posts relating to an eventual coffee shop.
We are expected to believe that the 'coffee shop' that doesn't exist is actually a relative institution. That person is stating that they were restrained, without the aid of professional help, in a coffee shop and that people there were putting aside their cold coffee to relate to one another. Therefore, it is clear postor states that people in general act/react genuinely the way they would act in institutions of behavior modification, or the other way around and all is quite normal.
This is postors way of a non-ellaborate ruse by themself who is either sincerely joking or has not thought out what they are trying to say.
I agree with Gin and Starry-Eyed, if someone restrained me if I was frustrated I would sue the shit out of them, like I really want four or five people touching me when I am angry and in a public setting. If I overturned a coffee table out of frustration most people would back the fuck up and call the cops, unless you have a macho type in the mix and they want to tell you to chill or I leave out of confusion or other, or the business owner tells me to get the fuck out of their money making property where things like coffee tables mean more money. Even then; no restraining which is nothing like getting a beat down for what you just did by destroying property.
'Normal' people, already and honestly stated, don't go into coffee shops and give little, continuous scribble notes to unidentifiable third parties who then give them to the person you want to be friends with. More likely, if you have need of someone you reach to that person by more illustrious or assertive means than being a fucking pansy who would get themselves hurt by note passing unless Every person in the coffee shop is seriously stupid and drugged. Are they, these friends and non friends of yours, all of them drugged and seriously incompetently stupid??? No. They can't be, and its because you stated that not all of your friends at the coffee shop had their behaviour modified or their nose shoved into a corner or w/e you think a 'victim' acts like.
The original anonymous postor, not having thought about what he/she is writing, is crappily begging us to believe (I know I'm stating the obvious here, sorry) or deliberately NOT want us to believe that he/she goes into this coffee shop, this unreal place, and makes a friend and a virtual 'family' of everyone who can't wait to share and relate about important and traumatic events, as if brainwashing and behaviour modification does not typically, statistically rip families, people, friendships all apart - but that it is a normal occurence and does make angry bedfellows, but instead - upon realizing that you are a true victim of hoodwinking, kidnapping, child abuse and all manner of civil violation - it makes you weak and not angry. Behaviour modification, to our coffee shop postor, makes you want to seek out others like you so you can talk peacefully and meekly about your enemies who put your eyes to the corner, you are not angry more of the time, you are just frustrated and your family is there at the coffee shop for you. Behaviour modification makes you seek out old friends and new friends and new local hangouts, they're everywhere, where you can spread the love and the understanding, and Especially the trust of other people that you gain when you are severely traumatized and abused as a child or young adult or adult. And then, everyone passes notes to newcomers who are in need of friends, and literally every person who walks through the door is going to be baptized in this 'new family' over coffee and relations and little fucking note giving. Not one person in this place is condescending because they, every one of them, is 'falling all over themselves' to relate to anyone who comes in from day one or anyone who has been there for long periods of time. Do you ever leave this coffee shop? I wouldn't - everyone there is taking care of me and running to help me.
In fact, states the original postor, literally every five (5) to a handful of 'friends' out the average 30 people who go in and out of this one particular coffee shop in America (where is this place please, what is the address please???), average being that 30 people in one coffee shop at one time would be a fully packed coffee shop coming and going, have been in a child behavioral modification institution. In fact, says the postor, trauma and happy tidings of militant punishment is a regular conversation at the local hangout and everyone there is very sympathetic even if they haven't been in institution. That is to say, says our illustrious postor, that not one person in this 'coffee shop' institution reacts or projects onto others who were in similar situations, this postor is in control of their out-of-control PTSD at least in post.In the same words of this postor, those friends of the postor would necessarily have to be very apologetic and possess no emotion as well as being completely stupid and always on heavy medication. This medication and stupidity would be imminent in all cases when and where the postor arrives at the local hang out because he/she is constantly looking for friends and has no trouble finding them. But really everyone there in this loverly coffee shop is good friends with postor/notegiver and can relate to he/she, because all of them have been in a genuinely normal behaviour modification situation at any point in their young adult lives. That is to say, within the context of the postors words, behaviour modification treatment is normal. That is also to say, says the postor, that people are entirely self sacrificing (sure people want to help if the job is not difficult AND it will not take from their pride) when it comes to desperate nutbags like Coffee Shop Postor. If you cannot find these people, says the postor, then you are not trying.
What is laced throughout all of this writing, besides the jesting notion that people like this exist everywhere if only we would stop being introverted and overcautious enough to start passing little notes ("let's be friends", "I want to be your friend", "Friends?", "Hi") notes that we all know could elicite a potential police escort out of the local hangout or at least a serious lynching or more likely making NO friends and stop going there out of total fucking, hilarious embarassment; is the notion that we should stop acting like victims and that by totalitarian, Straightlike, dialogue we are continually inventing a world that does not exist. Notes like that only work if you are buying someone across the room a drink, and only if you are god damm fucking so physically attractive that people cannot resist; like a movie star with gobs of money: all of which the Coffee Shop Postor has divulged that he/she is NOT famous, has no money, and is not very beautiful or attractive by noting that public displays of frustration are acceptable at the local hangout as well as hanging out on the dirty floor at the local godforsaken motherfucking coffee shop from hell.
It was perfectly clear that the original postor, through lack of forethought and lack of down-to-earth compositional skills (probably you do have some lofty and dreamily fantastical 'tuff love' doublespeaking essays that you did awhile back and some other shit that is old hat that people use in conversation when briefly discussing useless and outdated ways to relate to one another), was creating a world that does not exist and cannot survive in a capitalist society where the people will only prosper when left to their own devices. Communism and cult-reform only have proven to perpetuate instability and ignorance. Postor's friends at the coffee shop are SO self sacrificing that they realistically have no identity, much the same as this postor calls us victims for losing our identities in Straight and continuing to complain about it. These friends at the coffee shop have no ego and they have nothing better to do than to fall all over this postor, a postor who is an ALL Loving ALL neurotic GOD at this coffee shop (what the fuck is the address please where people have no ego and no pride and no identity outside of YOU. Seriously tell me, I want to know so I can come and rule there, too).
The original postor offers a pointless story and an if/then fallacy (there is a term for this kind of fallacy, I forget the psychological definition of it but the postor's fallacy is easy to see you know), though I remain uninsulted, by using a 'coffee shop' situation and a place where young adults and children might frequent. If the local hangout that creates in you a sense of comfort and belonging and the postor has found all coffee shops in his/her town, your town must have one, too. These tricky words spoken with double meaning are attempting to envision a world where all of the people, shops, schools, countries, waterways, jobs, businesses, places 'where you live at', are all of them just waiting to help one another and restrain you and pass little notes and befriend you and help you get by. Again, they're everywhere and its your fault if for acting like the totalist victim and your fault that you can't find these places where these people are. It's your fault you got yourself here: sound familiar?
Seriously, to the anonymous postor who threaded this boring ruse to waste time: give me your address so I can go to this modified coffee shop and beat your dick-eating ass with my crowbar. Here I being am dead serious, I will literally come over and start breaking the coffee table you overturned, I WILL start cracking the skulls of all of these people you say can't wait to relate to you, and I WILL personally bust your fucking eyeballs out of their cum soaked sockets. You think I'm joking here? Give me the address, see what I would do to you.
And I won't injure you because I am a victim of behaviour modification, I'll do it just because I am bored and want to show you that you're not really good at joking or lieing or w/e you were writing that makes no sense or difference to anyone at all anywhere, ever. And I'll also throw in a free curb check at you just because you were really trying to sound like a slick dictator with your program honky jive speak, joking or no. Go on now, Give me the address where you live please . Just put your address into the next post you make about coffee shops where everyone is brainwashed.
In a perfect & dreaming world, right? I would actually like to bet that you are a failed business person who didn't make it in the behaviour-modification business or any other business you tried to create or be a part of. You are somehow attempting to resurface an old, dead topic that is alot like yourself. A not-so-welldressed piece of shit. Eventually people don't laff and they don't want to hear that joke anymore, it smells funny but it aint' funny, and its staining the carpet but you can't use it as a coffee table. Get rid of it. Lmfao.
Oh, Wait a sec! Is this 'coffee shop' owned by gays who only let fully-loaded gays inside? I'll still stop by and bust your face open for you, and I'll do it because I happen to like homos and I think it would be funny to dawn the role of fag-hater just because you don't deserve to be at that particular coffee shop with such wonderful people you lie about.
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I am changing my new name to The Coffeeshop Postor, I wrote that last gem but I didn't clock in. Fuck you. And seriously, I would like to stop by and break in your face and the faces of all your coffeeshop modified friends.
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If you get a chance, could you please erase on of the posts I accidentally put up twice? thanks.
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me.
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How about I go on with my coffee shop fantasies, and you go on with your fantasies of me posting my address in response to your requests to come kill me and other such intricate undiscernable double-meaning communications that are all you chicken-shit can offer up who won't even tell me their fucking favorite song or w/e. :rolleyes: :laughoutloud: :fuckoff: :w/e: :who'swastingwho'stime:
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sweetheart.
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Er, that coffee shop scenario, have you pitched it to Monty Python yet? :tup:
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No, I haven't, but that does bring to mind an interesting thing that I witnessed with my own eyes in my hometown in Middle America here. It so happens that there are a number of Olympic Athletes who make their home here and can be seen in their training regimens by the ordinary chubbing out citizens of our Fine Nation from the window of the Outback Steakhouse. Well, not having the meat-eating proclivities of the general populace, I myself was out back waiting on a friend who is a dishwasher there for the sole purpose of collecting specimens for his graduate research project on Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy. It just so happened that my location was such that I was the sole witness to the sight of a Very Long Distance Runner stopping by to rub gravel in his hair for lunch. I kid you not! True stories, all of them! And you thought Monty Python was nothing but a troupe of nutty Brits. :roll:
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wasting time ?!?
Heads up Shirley, give me the address of your coffee shop or your home address and I REALLY WILL stop by and put a crowbar upside your face for the definitions of your particular forms of victimization. I'll put you in the hospital. So, yeah, w/e. I PROMISE I DEFINITELY WILL. Just give up the address. Favorite song right now is: "Breaking the Law".
He/she finally admits the coffee shop is a fantasy, that's cool. No need to post the address where I would have easily paid for the plane ticket to stop by there with a fresh crowbar to put upside your face and shank your gut. If the coffee shop had actually existed in all your excitement you would have named it out by this time. So, sure, hon, go on with the fantasies. You didn't make clear that the coffee shop was a farce. At least you have the cohonays to admit when you are joking. Some of us here like to continue with our conspiracies and paranoia.
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I just read this thread and was weirded out by it.
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if the swing of that crowbar is as fast as you delivering on your promise within the allotted time period that you gave yourself to return with certain information then i will certainly have no trouble dodging it and in general just tapping my feet, yawning and waiting on you. then, when you do get around to swinging it i will have no trouble, still bored, reaching up with one hand to get that crowbar out of your grip. then i will yawn again as you explain your telephone problem and why certain times of the day are better than others for calling.
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"I'm wondering if people really want to be free of straight or if there is some subconscious attachment we have to being in there."
this was the best thing EVER posted on this whole thread.......
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
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HOME SWEET HOME
(http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Toothfairy_TP/ff_amityvillehorror_100604_160_1097101182.jpg)[ This Message was edited by: groovy1634 on 2005-08-20 23:01 ]
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I could be reading it wrong, but it sounds like judgement.
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The REALLY weird part is that both the Coffeeshop Liar and the Crowbar Swinger are anonymous postors. They wouldn't dare identify themselves in here. I would never post my address on here, I would be scared because of some the things that ex-straightlings are capable of doing not having had the money to pay for any proper counseling yet. I would go with not giving up your address Coffeeshop Postor. If you do, you actually might wind up in the hospital with some random crowbar lodged in your cranium and shit, man the survivors of straight are one fucked up and dismantled bunch, ya'll. Although I do think it would be entertaining to watch some of the nay sayers about the abuses that actually happened at Straight get some vengeance taken out on them. I say if he gives you his address, Crowbar Person, you should dismantle the fantasy coffeeshop all over his/her whole body ...just for shits and giggles. I'd pay to watch that one.
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Yes. There is a psychological being and profile that is created with any victim of crime.
This is seen in all forms of crime where the victim identifies with their attacker and/or what is being done to them. To have sympathy and empathy is inherent in all human nature, and it is more so in victims of crime to identify with their attackers and all the things that went on in Straight, so you are not alone I would imagine. This is not a natural state of being, this creation of schysm in the victim's mind byt the crime done - it is the first step toward healing but it is NOT a phase of healing. The victim (the term victim is a basic definition used in police procedures and law to define any person who was done wrong against or a crime was done to them. Personally I find these posts demeaning toward the True Victims of Straight Inc. saying we are not book defined victims of crime, so fuck you) must come to understand that what was done to them IS CRIME and IS WRONG in every facet of law abiding America we live in.
Shame on you, DragonFly, for not doing your homework about psychological residual effects of crime and child abuse, child abuse especially at the mass pedophilic hands' of Straight.
Yes. Pedophilic. To clarify what I myself mean, my definition of Pedophile: Anyone who gets off, in any form of money, punishment, other; on hurting children. Crimes being commited are not just physical assault where the victim wishes the occurence had never happened.
Back to police definitions of VICTIM: It is imperative that the victim does realize that this is not a proper way of healing by internalizing what was done to them, internalizing some UNREALISTIC CONSCIOUSNESS from their criminal attacker(s) so that the victim becomes introverted/depressed.
True and Right Identification and proper healing only comes when the victim goes through stages of healing not including this psychie action you are referring to.
Feel free to look up anything I am saying here within the guidelines of all police victim brochures, procedures, and books surrounding children in abusive homes and institutions, people who have been raped, or are victims of any and all the types of cases of domestic and criminal violence. This includes kidnapping, forced truancy, illegal seizure of all the civil rights, and you can name the other things that Straight did to you to break the law. It does not matter that it was Straight, you WOULD COMPLETELY have had the same residual empathy and psychological confusion on how to react to the crimes done against you if you were never in Straight Inc. and the crimes done to you there had happened somewhere else. This means that saying you are a true victim is nothing personal against anyone who does wrong to us within the scope of the laws that keep us safe. This means that it is nothing personal if you feel you 'miss' Straight in some psychological way. And, Dragonfly, by continuing not to think of what you are writing before you write it - you are talking down crime and getting on the side of crime. If all you are saying is that you sometimes have psychological confusion, this is perfectly understandable. I don't know who you are but if you started that whole 'CoffeeShop Post', I'm still willing to bust your head open with a crowbar. If you didn't start that mess, then I'm not offering you the metal in your head.
So, if you do feel some sort of psychological common bond with Straight ... now that you KNOW the truth about what you are thinking and feeling there with your misappropriated missing of that sick place, you can begin to turn your mind and emotion in the right direction and realize that nothing that was done to you was your fault in only the realist sense of the terms. Beginning this motion of separating yourself and your sanity necessarily keeps you from projecting onto others and other situations when you begin to identify YOURSELF as the victim of a crime, and not the other way around.
Furthermore, it should be easy for you to now see that Straight IS wrong for what it did, the people who did these things to you, STAFF and DIRECTORS and CREATORS, any person of adult age, are criminals. YOU ARE NOT a criminal for any of that. You are the victim here and they are criminals in the sense of learning to bring about the justice that is supposed to be inherent in our laws that protect us. We would not say it was crime if there was no crime there, that would waste everyones' time if no laws had been written to protect us against things like child abuse, rape, kidnapping, etc.
As you begin to understand this KEY difference of book victim and true criminal you can begin to unwind yourself from the situation. And hey, nothing wrong with ever seeing a counselor to work out some of these tough issues we all gained because of the crimes done at Straight. The real kicker is going to be what to do about your sorry fucking parents who dumped you off at Straight because they lacked the maturity to raise kids.
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Yes. There is a psychological being and profile that is created with any victim of crime.
This is seen in all forms of crime where the victim identifies with their attacker and/or what is being done to them. To have sympathy and empathy is inherent in all human nature, and it is more so in victims of crime to identify with their attackers and all the things that went on in Straight, so you are not alone I would imagine. This is not a natural state of being, this creation of schysm in the victim's mind byt the crime done - it is the first step toward healing but it is NOT a phase of healing. The victim (the term victim is a basic definition used in police procedures and law to define any person who was done wrong against or a crime was done to them. Personally I find these posts demeaning toward the True Victims of Straight Inc. saying we are not book defined victims of crime, so fuck you) must come to understand that what was done to them IS CRIME and IS WRONG in every facet of law abiding America we live in.
Shame on you, DragonFly, for not doing your homework about psychological residual effects of crime and child abuse, child abuse especially at the mass pedophilic hands' of Straight.
Yes. Pedophilic. To clarify what I myself mean, my definition of Pedophile: Anyone who gets off, in any form of money, punishment, other; on hurting children. Crimes being commited are not just physical assault where the victim wishes the occurence had never happened.
Back to police definitions of VICTIM: It is imperative that the victim does realize that this is not a proper way of healing by internalizing what was done to them, internalizing some UNREALISTIC CONSCIOUSNESS from their criminal attacker(s) so that the victim becomes introverted/depressed.
True and Right Identification and proper healing only comes when the victim goes through stages of healing not including this psychie action you are referring to.
Feel free to look up anything I am saying here within the guidelines of all police victim brochures, procedures, and books surrounding children in abusive homes and institutions, people who have been raped, or are victims of any and all the types of cases of domestic and criminal violence. This includes kidnapping, forced truancy, illegal seizure of all the civil rights, and you can name the other things that Straight did to you to break the law. It does not matter that it was Straight, you WOULD COMPLETELY have had the same residual empathy and psychological confusion on how to react to the crimes done against you if you were never in Straight Inc. and the crimes done to you there had happened somewhere else. This means that saying you are a true victim is nothing personal against anyone who does wrong to us within the scope of the laws that keep us safe. This means that it is nothing personal if you feel you 'miss' Straight in some psychological way. And, Dragonfly, by continuing not to think of what you are writing before you write it - you are talking down crime and getting on the side of crime. If all you are saying is that you sometimes have psychological confusion, this is perfectly understandable. I don't know who you are but if you started that whole 'CoffeeShop Post', I'm still willing to bust your head open with a crowbar. If you didn't start that mess, then I'm not offering you the metal in your head.
So, if you do feel some sort of psychological common bond with Straight ... now that you KNOW the truth about what you are thinking and feeling there with your misappropriated missing of that sick place, you can begin to turn your mind and emotion in the right direction and realize that nothing that was done to you was your fault in only the realist sense of the terms. Beginning this motion of separating yourself and your sanity necessarily keeps you from projecting onto others and other situations when you begin to identify YOURSELF as the victim of a crime, and not the other way around.
Furthermore, it should be easy for you to now see that Straight IS wrong for what it did, the people who did these things to you, STAFF and DIRECTORS and CREATORS, any person of adult age, are criminals. YOU ARE NOT a criminal for any of that. You are the victim here and they are criminals in the sense of learning to bring about the justice that is supposed to be inherent in our laws that protect us. We would not say it was crime if there was no crime there, that would waste everyones' time if no laws had been written to protect us against things like child abuse, rape, kidnapping, etc.
As you begin to understand this KEY difference of book victim and true criminal you can begin to unwind yourself from the situation. And hey, nothing wrong with ever seeing a counselor to work out some of these tough issues we all gained because of the crimes done at Straight. The real kicker is going to be what to do about your sorry fucking parents who dumped you off at Straight because they lacked the maturity to raise kids.
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To the above poster. You know me, and I know you, in a limited way, of course. Please let me clarify that the "Coffee Shop" posts were a tangent, and, although I thoroughly enjoyed and was impressed by your analysis of these posts, I take affront to your wish to discuss crowbar threats to the writer of these posts. You know damn well that I am more on your side than many in this argument of Straight being a crime that still must be brought to justice.
You may not have been aware that I also wrote the following post:
On 2005-08-19 11:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Original Poster, that is the whole point. If people are still confused, if they have the pain still locked up, if they have beliefs about themselves and the world around them that are actually incorrect because they got them from Straight, they want to come here and talk about it with people because they are, in a sense, not out of Straight. Or Straight isn't out of them. I myself have had the experience of having memories come back because of things other people said on this message board, and these memories were very informative, they kind of unwound a certain amount of energy that was tied to something that had happened that was so scary I did not remember it before. It's like we are trying to recreate history to understand it. And like the sign on your history teacher's wall: "Those who forget history are destined to repeat it". Well, another thread is talking about the concept of "acculturation". The thing is, we were not only "acculturated", we were terrified into being part of this Straight culture. I think that might be why it is so hard for people to unlearn, it kind of got frozen in on the level of a survival instinct.
Of course, everyone is different in the ways they reacted to Straight, and in the effects that Straight had on them."
I hope that clears things up for you. I hope that you will quit making these threats. I thought it was pretty damn clear that the "Coffee Shop" bit was a farce. You can analyze it all you want, kid, and be my editor if you want, as you are correct, there was a certain amount of chaos in the intentionality, which I would have had to fix before I sent such a writing in for any kind of professional assessment. But lordy boy, it's a damn message board. Chill out a bit, eh? God damn I wish you would contact me again, as some of your recent posts reveal a sharp mind and writing skills. I apologized to you quite sincerely. Isn't that good enough? Please?
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I don't know what you think I am doing, and you are right ...this is a message board. You don't have my IP, noone else here does either. I have been coming to this board now for about two weeks. Buddy, w/e your cause is against Straight, the coffee shop scenario was taken as serious by an admin and some other long term posters who've been here for a long time, and me.
I don't have anything against you, whoever you are. I was just posting my own version of what I thought a critical post should lookie like against a coffeeshop straight. Kid, I didn't know you were joking. Apologies, bucko. Nevermind it all.
The word 'psychic' refers to psychological, but I am no etymologist. Boyo, you can pick up any number of books on rape, brochures on domestic violence and child abuse. Most of these will at the very least point you in the right direction on well versed topics of the victim identifying w/ their attacker.
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Thanks for the apology, bucko. Sorry, didn't know present company could not discern what I thought was clearly an obviously farcical scenario. Sorry again if said scenario was chaotically presented and led to misunderstandings wrt to my views and intentions. Say, drop me a line sometime. I'm working on somethin, and I need a good editor. :smile: Come on, it'll be fun! Please?
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P.S. Tell you what, since you're new here -- I'll drop a line to that Reagan Youth fellow, and tell him to give you my contact info. How's that. I look forward to discussing with you my editorial needs, should you be interested in that on which I am working. Look, Ma, no dangling participles! :smile:
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On 2005-08-22 17:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The real kicker is going to be what to do about your sorry fucking parents who dumped you off at Straight because they lacked the maturity to raise kids."
Yeah, so inept she couldn't take me to the vet when I broke my foot. Of course she's gonna pay to lock me up where someone else can take care of my medical and child abuse and neglect needs.
Oh wait, I never told you that one, my parents never paid Straight a dime. Maybe Straight should sue me and get me to admit that they abused me in deposition.
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Okay, let me explain the corollary, by which I mean "joke", since my satiricalness is not clear to all of the present company: see, Betty Sembler is under deposition -- and we are told she is being deposed with regard to Straight -- and will, we hope, be subsequently indisposed, as it were, due to the embarrassing and incriminating nature of her deposition -- because she and Mr. Sembler sued Ray for the alleged theft of and public humiliation resulting allegedly from public display of Mr. Sembler's regrettable/tragic personal item. Now, and you will shortly see if you had not before that there is more than one corollary at play here, first I suggest that Straight sue *me* for non-payment of the bill, clearly an absurdity, and yet simultaneously a taunt for Straight to rear it's slimey head from the depths of the masquerade it is putting on right now, and second that Straight would then wish to depose *me* with regard to the crimes *they*, in fact, committed. But hey, how about we start stealing some regrettable/tragic personal items from certain trash bins and dumpsters in and surrounding Milford, Ohio, and other strategic locations in other states and posting these items on E-bay?
I trust I need not explain the satirical reference to a "vet" instead of a doctor?
P.S. The unspoken tragedy, of course, is that my mother was looking for and found a real bargain of a lock-up for me. Everyone loves a bargain.
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maybe someone could do us a favor and write a synopsis of this thread..? :grin:
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...Um, well... let's see some people said some crazy shit, although it was not useless it was hard to see. After a while it began to dawn on me and then a little while later it got really funny. The anger is deep.
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[ This Message was edited by: starry-eyed pirate on 2005-08-24 00:38 ]
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Holy shit!!!
Pollsters say American anger is at an all-time high. You don?t need a poll to figure that out. Just wander down to the local coffee shop for breakfast and listen to the anger spilling out over the war in Iraq, skyrocketing energy prices and a government out of control.
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/p ... 7539.shtml (http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7539.shtml)
Has Doug Thompson been to your coffee shop??We did not inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it form our children.
Haida
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I avoided the topic of Straight for over 10 years. I got on with life, had a family, graduated college, made friends etc. It took a long time to quit separating myself from the people around me.
I didn't want to make myself a victim of that experience and chose to view it as something that made me stronger. NO WAY! I never got to cry, tell anyone in any real way what happenned to me, and I never got to feel it. I was in shock there and for a long time after.
I settled now into reality the more non program people I deal with. (By that I mean non Straightlings)
There are many opinions - so many types of people out there. I am continually learning from them and in a way soaking up their normality.
When I left Straight I only associated with negative, reforming drunks, they called themselves Book Nazis. Then I was still in a matter of speaking in Straight, only accepting and following the most extreme viewpoint I could find. When I finally left there when I turned 21 (of course)- I had the same experience all over again that I did when I defected from Straight.
I am so grateful I did that. I have discovered that no one is "normal", I have so much to learn from everyone.
My life is good now, calm, most of the things around me are positive. I just want to finally get rid of that crap inside my head that tells me that no matter how well I do, I will always be a "cop out".
I am never allowed to fully enjoy anything good. I still feel like I have to pay conscequences for my childhood. I have not made an excuse out of Straight, I have done well and am grateful for my life.
I am so appreciative of these posts, it's like I am reading the discussions that go on inside my head. The fact that there are people out there who feel what I feel and think what I think; like NO ONE has ever been able to do before has already become an encouragment. Is it possible to get over this crap :eek: once and for all? I don't know, I just started reading these posts last week.
:eek:
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On 2005-10-21 13:06:00, Princess Bride wrote:
"I avoided the topic of Straight for over 10 years. I got on with life, had a family, graduated college, made friends etc. It took a long time to quit separating myself from the people around me.
I didn't want to make myself a victim of that experience and chose to view it as something that made me stronger. NO WAY! I never got to cry, tell anyone in any real way what happenned to me, and I never got to feel it. I was in shock there and for a long time after."
I also avoided talking or even thinking about Straight, but that lasted almost 20 years, until I found this forum. My journey sounds similar to yours because after about a 7 year period of post striaght wild and reckless lifestyle, I finally started the slow process of getting to know people from many walks of life and eventually graduated from college.
I viewed Straight as something that I had survived, that made me strong enough to survive anything, and that I wouldnt let it beat me. I never cried, grieved, or dealt with Straight at all, instead I just repressed it.
"I am so appreciative of these posts, it's like I am reading the discussions that go on inside my head. The fact that there are people out there who feel what I feel and think what I think; like NO ONE has ever been able to do before has already become an encouragment. Is it possible to get over this crap ::rainbow::
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I remember when I first got out of Straight, I would try and tell people what it was like. They would ask me why I didnt just walk out or call the cops or something. Nobody understood that place. You have to be there to really know.
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Yeah, like "Why didn't you call the cops?" and such. Kinda laughable, but kinda sad, there was no way in hell anyone who wasn't there could really know what it was like, and then they kind of blame you for having been there, "Why didn't you just walk out?".
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Yes. Exactly. Straight is not out of me yet. I still feel like I am fighting what may be a loosing battle to be out in the world. What is if really do need to be controlled just to avoid screwing up my life? (I life that that has done nothing but get better since I got out of "the program")
I know these beliefs are findamentally flawed, logically. All evidence is to the contrary. However, the beliefs are still there. What if I am just "mindfucking things and lying to myself"?
Also, until just a short time ago, I was being told the reason I woke up screaming etc. in the night was because I read too many scary books.
Could be, any way.
Who knows, maybe Straight made me a much better person, saved my life etc. and I was just whacked from the beginning?
What would have to happen to a person to make them believe that?
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Thank, and you too. I am very grateful for this. I was very upset with my husband for a day or so. Before I explained everything he was mad because I was "hurting myself" by dragging up bad memories.
I finally told him about it (I was sooooooooo ashamed, by the way) this helped a lot.
Anyway, I don't think he would totally ever get it, however, the fact that he listened and now knows this about me is very comforting. Now I no longer feel that I am hiding something from him.
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On 2005-10-22 13:03:00, Princess Bride wrote:
"Thank, and you too. I am very grateful for this. I was very upset with my husband for a day or so. Before I explained everything he was mad because I was "hurting myself" by dragging up bad memories.
I finally told him about it (I was sooooooooo ashamed, by the way) this helped a lot.
Anyway, I don't think he would totally ever get it, however, the fact that he listened and now knows this about me is very comforting. Now I no longer feel that I am hiding something from him."
I completely know what you mean! I've gotten crap from my brother...saying things like I should stop reading posts if I'm getting so upset by it. He kept lecturing me on how I was dwelling, and said something very similar to what your husband said. ::rainbow::
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On 2005-10-22 12:59:00, Princess Bride
What would have to happen to a person to make them believe that?
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Cult indoctrination, thought reform, and mind-control techniques.
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How long have you been frequenting these forums, str8survivorVA?
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"Well I know for ME"....ahh shit that just sounded like I was realting in rap never mind
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Welcome to the jungle. :silly:
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We got fun 'n' games.
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Aw shucks, Str8survivorVA. I'm glad you're finding some use for this site. But really, anybody can do it. I took my que from drug policy reformers. When I first started looking into that issue, I was shocked. I was sure every last one of them would land up disposessed, in prison on some bogus charge or other and their children adopted out to TOUGHLOVE hategroup members.
But that didn't happen. Fact is, you really can say damned near anything in this country. It really pisses off the Religious Reich, but there's really not much they can do but stomp their wittle feet and throw a fit. I've tried to demonstrate that; sometimes to the extreme. And, to a large degree, it's worked. When Wes first asked me to set up a forum (cause he couldn't get Usenet to start one on the topic), I think ours was the only one. Now there are dozens that I know of, very likely hundreds who's members don't really invite outside interest.
I'm somewhat frustrated, though, over the persistant idea that no one can understand our unique experience. I don't think the Program is so much unique as it is an extreme example of a much broader social and political trend.
And it's not even the worst or most extreme example. Ok, so we did and, sometimes, believed some crazy shit under the presumed authority of the Program, backed by the parents and law enforcement... hell, even the president, first lady, vice president gave the nod. All the king's horses and all the kings men.
You want to see an extreme example of drug war group-think? Just take some time and read up on the Tulia Drug Bust* One of the early defendants (all of them have since been exonerated) was sentenced to over 300 years! in prison for a first time, chump change drug offence w/ no evidence, no wittness coroboration, nothing but a criminal gypsy cop who says he wrote his case notes on his leg.
Now, I ask you, how does an entire town or region--the cops, prosecutors, judges, DA, individual jury members and all--arrive at a state of delusion like that evident in this bizarre (though all too typical) case? At first blush, I just assumed there were direct affiliates of Calvina Fay involved. I even asked around if anyone from the Texas programs remembered a guy by the name of Tom Coleman.
But that ain't it, it's the other way around. The drug war, in all it's excesses, hasn't grown out of the Program. The Program has grown out of the drug war. We just got a potent slice of it. And if we're ever to do anything meaningful about it, I think it's absolutely imperative for us to find common ground w/ our good neighbors and fellow Americans who are subject to a less extreme version of the same mindfuck.
* The Tom Coleman who plays the malevolent clown in this comic tragedy has, as far as I know, no relation whatever to Tom Coleman the lawyer out in California. I think maybe it's just a cursed name. So, in the event that you marry a man name Coleman and bear him a son, please to not name the child Tom!The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
--John Adams, U.S. President
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Fucking brainwashing is not the same as the fucking public school system, and it is not the same as "group-think" (although I guess that is in there. We were children subjected to planned out thought reform and torture. I don't think a god damn person who hasn't been through it could POSSIBLY understand. Although it is a sad tale, and there are people around who will sympathize and feel the issue as their own, no one who has not been through it can understand the experience and all the fucked up years afterward.
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On 2005-11-04 09:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fucking brainwashing is not the same as the fucking public school system... "
i disagree. Public school is all about brainwash. It's not as extreme, brutal as it was in str8 for sure, but it is a brainwash none the less, as in "i pledge allegience to the flag..."and all that crap. The Public School system is the well of power that the Federal government draws it's power from. Brainwashin' the yout'. Peace. Fuck Authority.[ This Message was edited by: starry-eyed pirate on 2005-11-04 10:27 ]
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On 2005-11-04 06:14:00, Veteran Guy wrote:
"Welcome to the jungle. ::drummer::
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Anon, I really think you're mistaken, and tragically so. We're not alone, not in the least. The difficulty comes in when you try to shatter people's illusions and then they come unglued.
Did you ever read any of that Gatto book I keep hawking? Here, here's a short essay that outlines the Program as implimented through the public school system. http://www.worldtrans.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt (http://www.worldtrans.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt)
Ok, maybe it's a mid-length essay. But shorter than the book by a long shot. And it makes the point.
Now, John Taylor Gatto, as far as I know, has never even heard of Straight, Inc. And I haven't found mention of DFAF, DARE or any other known Program affiliates anywhere in his writings. But the continuity of purpose and some of the techniques are undeniable. So then, how'd that come to be?
There are plenty of other examples. Here are some that I keep harping on. DARE is a Program production; The Ad Council ads accusing 13yo pot smokers of international terrorism; the drug war in general; piss testing for fun and profit (also a Program production via Betty Sembler, Bobby DuPont and a few other Program notables)
I think it's counterproductive to frame this issue as a freak story. It's not a freak story at all. On the contrary, it's a fairly typical story of the bitter harvest of authoritarian thinking and culture.
Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce
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Fuck Guns and Roses. Fucking Aerosmith wanna-be glam shitbags.
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On 2005-11-04 11:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fuck Guns and Roses. Fucking Aerosmith wanna-be glam shitbags. "
Fuck Aerosmith, non-drug using, rehab rock shitheads that prove rock and roll bands suck shit after quitting drugs.
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On 2005-11-04 12:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-04 11:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fuck Guns and Roses. Fucking Aerosmith wanna-be glam shitbags. "
Fuck Aerosmith, non-drug using, rehab rock shitheads that prove rock and roll bands suck shit after quitting drugs."
You ain't never lied when it comes to this! :lol:
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Okay, if the public school system is so much like Straight, then why doesn't everyone who has been through it get what it is like to be in Straight? Because it is not like Straight. My teachers were not programming me with brainwashing tactics. If I had some control freak for a teacher, there was perspective because it was only for an hour, or because I could talk to other people about it and deal mentally. Yes the whole thing was controlling, but the difference, as I see it, is that it was not exclusive and restricting. I had access to libraries, bookstores, people and other ideas, and I did make use of these, and read about other educational philosophies, and I had space to think about the system I was in the middle of, and space to be myself emotionally and mentally. My teachers in fact welcomed my ideas and creativity. I had space and time outside of school. And I managed to cut school a whole lot and not get caught for a long time, and if my parents hadn't been so incompetent, there were other ways for me to go than that public school H.S. diploma.
I just don't think you can brainwash someone without the restriction of communication, information and private time. That is why people say things like "well gee, if you had all just misbehaved at the same time you could have closed the place down."
I didn't like the public school system then and I still don't. I get what you are driving at, I just don't think it has the same effect on the psyche, whatsoever. At least not in my experience. I had humans for teachers. Sure there is the authority role they get into, but I was free to have my own ideas and question theirs. They dismissed some of what I said, for sure, but that's okay, i could still think what I wanted.
Many of my high school classmates saw the same things I did, we talked about it, people handled it differently, but we were getting conscious of what we were in the middle of, and it was nowhere near totalitarian enough to keep us from thinking and talking about it. I even had teachers who ranted and raved on the subject, in the 9th grade even! Not at all like Staff.
Straight was a devastation, and no one who has just been through the public school system will really get it.
Yes, other people can get government control of ideas, and they can get the Drug War, and they can get the lies and manipulations of the public school system. But they do not get the thought reform and torture of Straight.
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Str8 and the public school system both operate under the same principle. Reward and punishment. One is simply less severe than the other. The school system brainwashes most of the yout' into compliance with the already established system. "i pledge allegience..." 'n' all. The yout' who are not easily fooled or otherwise still not under control are then put into programs like str8.
You make a lot of good points, concernin' the differences between str8 and public school. And i get what your drivin' at too, but i see that str8 is jus' an extension of the more moderate social control/acculturation institutions, like churches and schools. V.I. Lenin says all governments oppress. i would go one step furthur and say all institutions oppress, primarily through some form of a brainwash to one degree or another.
The Government wants everyone on the Reservation.
And you are of course right about how no-one who has jus' been a student in the public schools would be able to understand str8. Yet they are both institutions of social control.
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I think you underestimate people if you think they are so brainwashed by public school. Lots of people see through it. Whether or not they value their children enough to take them out of that system is another matter.
Come on, the government doesn't have that much of a stranglehold yet.
Yes I know you will come back with logistical problems. That's cool, we can talk about it.
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On 2005-11-04 19:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think you underestimate people if you think they are so brainwashed by public school. Lots of people see through it. Whether or not they value their children enough to take them out of that system is another matter.
Well speaking as a parent with children that attend public schools I can say I value my children "enough". Implying that a parent doesn't value their children enough for having them attend a public school is a bit crude and judgemental in my opinion.
For the most part I like the schools my children attend. There have been disagreements, but they get worked out because I am vocal.
I am raising my children with absolutley no help. I have to work full time to keep a roof among other things over their heads. I don't have the luxury of homeschooling my children as it is not possible for me to be a stay at home parent.
Given the opportunity to stay at home I'm not so sure I would even choose to be the sole educator of my children. There are a lot of things I simply do not know in the world of education. All I can continue to do is stay involved with what is going on at school, be an example for the values I find important, and talk to my kids about the way real life works. The way real life works is sometimes a bit more extreme than what they learn at school. I'm doing the best I can to balance everything out.
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I wonder how many hours a day it would take to homeschool a kid. Just wondering.
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I nevr wentuh skool & I turnt out ok. Got myself my own bizzniss too. Too muych booklarnin' kin ruin the mind if y ask me.
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Shut up you fucking turd.
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On 2005-11-04 21:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I wonder how many hours a day it would take to homeschool a kid. Just wondering."
Depends how much you want them to learn is my guess. Hell my kids are still learning the moment they get home because it's time for homework, reading books, practing instruments, and practicing their Spanish. School might be 12 hours if it were held in my house and they'd hate my ass. :silly: Joke people. On the otherhand schooling might just be at various times throughout the day as I'm all over the map most days. Who knows. I don't know a thing about homeschooling and what the legal requirements are in my state of what they have to be instructed in.
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Well if it is a brainwashing institution, that isn't good for children, right? Or maybe it isn't a brainwashing institution. Now I'm confused.
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Well i consider brainwashin' to be any kind of a systematic mental manipulation whereby the victims' will to think freely is usurped by some institution claiming to be benevolent. i attended public school from kindergarten until i, as Antigen would say: "landed up on front row". i was seen as some kind of a threat by the system because i wouldn' go to school and i liked to smoke pot out in the woods. The brainwash wasn' taking.
i have said before that i knew there was a place like str8 long before i was ever in str8, and it's not 'cause i had heard of the place or anything, but i could jus' tell by the authoritarian tactics of the public school system what the values of the broader society really were, despite their efforts to confuse me with all their double-speak lies. i mean i was still shocked when i was first brought into group. Hell, i'm still in shock now(that's part of what PTSD is), but i wasn't surprised. When the school had finally exhausted all it's coercive and authoritarian disciplines on me and i still told 'em ta Fuck Off they threw up their hands and sent me to str8. There was actually a conspiracy against me between the school and my parents and a Dr. Schwartz(He worked at str8) whose 7-step son happened to be on my soccer team.
So the school system is jus' a link in the chain of authoritarian social controls. This is my experience.
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I just don't get how anyone who is suffering the PTSD and all that psyho shit can say public school is anything compared with Straight. You said yourself, the brainwashin' didn't take. You smoked weed in the woods and so on. I think there's kids who know exactly what it going on in public school, and they play the game and they know it is a game. But then when they have kids of their own, I don't know how many of them ever take their kids seriously enough to take them out of school, especially when it really isn't working out too well.
See, ultimately, you want the government to quit bugging you and your children, you gotta quit depending on it. Sorry all you single parents, this means getting together with other single parents and making communities out of separated and weakened family units. That's what I think. Quit complaining about the government having all this supposed brainwashing power, then not doing nothin' to take care of your own! See man, we lost too much over the past hundred or more years. It used to be, people in an area got together and themselves paid for a school teacher to teach their children.
This is not the easiest proposition, especially when we are talking about depressed and stressed and sub-par functioning Straight survivors.
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I'm still in Straight. They let us use computers here now though, thanks to Children and Families.
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Anon, I'm not saying it's exactly the same. Obviously, it's not. I think Todd nails it; it's the Program® Light. And I think the Program grew naturally and almost organically out of the blowback. Kids who resist the mainstream brainwashing and who's parents are, themselves, brainwashed enough to view that as evidence of a problem in their kid are the ones who wind up getting the intensive version of it.
As to homeschooling, it really doesn't take a lot of dedicated time. If you don't send your kids to school, they never learn to hate books and learning. They just continue on their curious ways and learn everything they find interesting, useful, fun or otherwise worthwhile. I think my littlest one has gotten more reading profficiency by looking up song lyrics online than anything else. She'll get fascinated w/ one band or artist or another, play their CDs over and over, find and print the lyrics and memorize them all. Then onto the fan trivia.
Right now, the biggest obstacle to most people breaking out of the system is its momentum. Everybody's at work or school all day. So there are no babysitters except for the public schools unless you're wealthy enough to hire them. Most of us are not. And there's the pervasive but totally unfounded belief that school is the only or best way for kids to learn basic literacy, numeracy and socialization. It simply isn't.
Webcrawler, in no way am I my kids' only educator. That would be awful for them and for me. They learn all the time from everyone and everything around them, just like toddlers and adults do.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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On 2005-11-05 08:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
I just don't get how anyone who is suffering the PTSD and all that psyho shit can say public school is anything compared with Straight.
As a percentage of the total adult population, how many people would you guess have bad dreams about highschool? I think the most common one has to do w/ finding oneself naked in school.
And ask some parents how they felt the first time they walked into the office or a parent/teacher conference as the adult.
Again, nowhere near as horrible, totally controling or destructive. But it is what it is and, imo, it's Not Good®.
Every man has a property in his own person.
This nobody has any right to but himself.
The labor of his body and the work of his
hands are properly his.
--John Locke
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On 2005-11-05 08:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just don't get how anyone who is suffering the PTSD and all that psyho shit can say public school is anything compared with Straight. You said yourself, the brainwashin' didn't take. You smoked weed in the woods and so on. I think there's kids who know exactly what it going on in public school, and they play the game and they know it is a game. But then when they have kids of their own, I don't know how many of them ever take their kids seriously enough to take them out of school, especially when it really isn't working out too well.
See, ultimately, you want the government to quit bugging you and your children, you gotta quit depending on it. Sorry all you single parents, this means getting together with other single parents and making communities out of separated and weakened family units. That's what I think. Quit complaining about the government having all this supposed brainwashing power, then not doing nothin' to take care of your own! See man, we lost too much over the past hundred or more years. It used to be, people in an area got together and themselves paid for a school teacher to teach their children.
This is not the easiest proposition, especially when we are talking about depressed and stressed and sub-par functioning Straight survivors.
"
Whether or not i have PTSD(or whatever) has no bearing on the relationship between the public school system and Str8.
i'm not gonna beat a dead horse, or a livin' one either for that matter.
i can say public school compares to str8 in that each is a coercive and manipulative, authoritarian institution concerned with the establishment of certain beliefs and world-views and prejudices in the minds of the yout'. One institution is jus' more harsh than the other. The establishment of such beliefs, world-views and prejudices maintains the status quo and perpetuates the oppression already in place.
You are acknowledging my point when you write that some kids see through "it". A lot of kids do see through "it", but i think most are fooled. And many of the perceptive who do see through "it" are then as, Ant. pointed out placed in programs like str8. The school system is not innocent simply because they are not always sucsessful. There is a government sponsored state system of oppression in America.
Once again you make several good points. We do have to stop depending on the government. We do need to get our communities back together. Yes. That is a great idea. And i liked what you said about makin' communities out of seperated and weakened family units. i dig it. And i would add to that. We need to stop selling ever'tin', slow down and start seein' what is goin' on in this world.
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i thought i might try to clarify somethin'. i'm not sayin' that public school in general is as pschologically traumatizing as str8. Str8 is way more traumatizing and damaging in so many ways. What i am sayin' is that these 2 apparently seperate institutions are actually in cahoots with each other and are part of the same authoritarian social control system. They share and espouse all the same core values. The way i see it it's kinda like str8 is an extention of the school system. Like maximum security detention or somethin'
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On 2005-11-05 11:31:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
The way i see it it's kinda like str8 is an extention of the school system. Like maximum security detention or somethin'
That's pretty much what I'm seein' too. May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house.
-- George Carlin
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::bandit:: ...so...uhh... ::dove:: :smile:
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I just want to be careful about comparing the two, because, as people have discussed, we found freedom of mind anyway. This is a paramount difference. Also because of the psychological fallout we see in ourselves and others.
But I will concede that there are psychological casualties from the school system as well, plenty smart people who didn't get what they needed at all and then were told it was them who was deficient.
Also pirate you misread what I said about the sub-par functioning Straight survivors. I was referring to the impact on the energy parents have for their children. That's for real.
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i'm not sure i follow ya. Do you mean that people found "freedom of mind" in str8 ?? i did have some freedom of mind, but not much. Maybe jus' enough to keep my disease from turnin' any worse. i'm not at all sure what you mean though.
"A paramount difference" ?? Do you mean that the "freedom of mind" is much greater in the public school system ?? and that is a paramount difference from str8 ?? Please clarify your meaning.
i didn'think i even addressed your other comment about the sub-par functioning str8 survivors.
Do i know you ??
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Sorry I worded that very carelessly. We found freedom of mind while in the public school system. Straight gave us the psychological fallout. These two things are both paramount differences.
You did address the sub-par thing in a recent post:
"Whether or not i have PTSD(or whatever) has no bearing on the relationship between the public school system and Str8."
I was not referring to the schools and Straight. I was saying depressed, stressed, and sub-par functioning Straight survivors have a hard time doing a lot of things, including putting a lot of energy into being the kind of parent they really want to be. It takes energy to do those projects of getting self-sufficient and off the grid.
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On 2005-11-05 13:38:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
i'm not sure i follow ya. Do you mean that people found "freedom of mind" in str8 ??
I didn't take it that way, except in a 'bloom where you are planted' sort of way. I'd say I got some clarification from the experience. When I initially ran away to avoid the Seed, I have to admit that I wasn't entirely certain I was right.
Maybe they were just talking, not actually intending to put me away. Maybe the Program was really right and I was wrong. How would I know for sure whether the manic gleem in the eyes of my Seedling sibs was for real or not?
But after having been there a little while and having found absolutely nothing unexpected, no treasures, no merit in the Progra, I certainly had more clarity of thought and more firm moral ground to stand on on the issue.
And it has served me well. I didn't get what I wanted, but beggars can't be choosers. I did get a profoundly sharp and hard understanding of human behavior and motivation out of it. Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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Again, please, I didn't say we found freedom of mind in Straight, I said we found it in public school in spite of it being coercive and all that. I was talking about me, pirate, some other people here, and all the people I know who see throught it.
Was Straight not traumatizing to you?
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Uh...let's see here...where you think i am addressing the sub-par thing i am actually addressing your comment from a few posts back to the effect that you don' get how anyone suffering with the Ptsd psycho shit can say the public school system even compares with str8. Also i got your meaning in reference to the sub-par thing. i see your point and know from experience how difficult independence is.
Communication is tricky. You're alright.
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On 2005-11-05 14:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Again, please, I didn't say we found freedom of mind in Straight, I said we found it in public school in spite of it being coercive and all that. I was talking about me, pirate, some other people here, and all the people I know who see throught it."
i gotcha.
Was Straight not traumatizing to you?"
i'm fucked up to this very day.
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On 2005-11-05 14:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
Again, please, I didn't say we found freedom of mind in Straight, I said we found it in public school in spite of it being coercive and all that.
But wasn't it just shades of the same theme? I mean, I can remember some teachers who taught me very good things by example; usually while bending or breaking the rules. But just about all that I learned from schooling was about how to subvert the control. The only voluntary urine sample they'll get from me is a taste test
--Bumper Sticker
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On 2005-11-05 14:22:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"
On 2005-11-05 14:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
Was Straight not traumatizing to you?"
i'm fucked up to this very day.
"
Not half as fucked up as those who think they're sane. Don't sweat the
- Petty Things
Don't pet the
- Sweaty Things
Water what you want to grow.
--Curiosity
-
Anon, here's what was in my morning paper today
Parents say principal paraded third-grader as thief, liar
By Jeff Oliver
VALLEY INDEPENDENT
Saturday, November 5, 2005
Some parents are openly questioning disciplinary measures allegedly taken by an Elizabeth-Forward elementary school principal against a third-grader falsely accused of stealing money.
Ryan White said his daughter was accused of stealing money from another girl on the school bus. She then was hauled from room to room at William Penn School and identified to pupils as a thief and liar.
White said his daughter, Katie, was "abused and scarred" by the incident and wants the district to take disciplinary action against Principal Marlene Whitby, who he said dragged his daughter from classroom to classroom.
The incident began to unfold on a school bus more than a month ago, when Katie White was accused of taking the money from another student. The student later recanted her story but not before Katie suffered the alleged humiliation.
The school district isn't talking about the incident.
"The district does not discuss personnel or discipline issues," said Jane Milner, the district's communications director.
Superintendent Paul Mueller and Whitby did not return phone calls seeking comment.
Ryan White said he has received little response from the school district.
"I was told that Katie took $5 off a kid on the bus, and they were taking her recess away. Then she comes home after school and tells me what the principal did to her," he said. "It was unreal."
White said he tried to get Whitby to apologize for what she did, but the principal refused.
"I had to go to the school board to get her to apologize, and it was supposed to be in public, but she did it in private," White said. "I asked (Whitby) if she investigated before she did what she did and she told me 'no.' She said she didn't talk to the bus driver. She didn't even look at the bus video."
The Rev. Lowell Meek, president of the school board, acknowledged the incident but had little comment.
"I know what you are talking about, but it is a personnel matter and it would be inappropriate to comment on," he said.
"Your implication is that (the incident) did happen. I can't say if it did or if it did not," Meek said. "No report has been brought to the board at this time.
Meanwhile, the principal is being criticized by some parents who say their children were in classrooms where Whitby took Katie.
"That's way out of line," said James Brown, whose son is a third-grader at the school. "I wouldn't accept that (punishment) for my child. It should be handled in-office and privately."
Tom DeRosa, a Forward Township supervisor and the parent of another third-grader, also took exception to how the incident was handled.
"If that were my child, they would have needed the state police, the U.S. Army and a tank because I would have gone after somebody," said DeRosa. "I'm sure the district is not done with this. I expect something to happen to that principal. That was just handled so poorly."
DeRosa said that students recently received a visit from a school psychologist and Whitby in an effort to clear up the incident, but the problem only has been compounded.
"My 8-year-old came home from school and told me they weren't trying to make it easy on that little girl. They were trying to make it easy on the principal," DeRosa said. "That's an 8-year-old, and they couldn't fool her."
At first, Ryan White said, all he wanted was a simple apology, but Whitby refused.
Then he went to the school board and received little help or support.
"The district just wants this to go away," he said. "But that's not how you treat little children. This isn't going away from my daughter. My little girl will never forget what happened to her that day in school. This has been a nightmare for us."
Different, clearly, from Straight, Inc. Parents and students talking out in group like this? Not supporting the Program? Getting moral support from others, including local media? Never happen in Str8.
But there are similarities too, aren't there? What do you think made this fucking idiot principal think this was the way to deal w/ the situation? You think she just came up w/ it on her own? That the professional culture on which she's fed for all the years to get where she is has been completely averse to this sort of thing? Think she's having a nervous breakdown and this is the first clear manifestation of it?
Well, if that were the case, the rest of the board and faculty wouldn't be being so dodgy about it, would they? Do you think that, if the kid hadn't mentioned it to the parent (and they usually don't) and the parent hadn't started a stink, do you think this fuckin' little tin god of a worthless bureaucrat would have seen any sort of reprecussion as a result of her mean spirited, idiotic behavior?
I don't. I think this is pretty much par for the course.
That's what I'm sayin'.
Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
-
-
On 2005-11-05 14:43:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-11-05 14:22:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"
On 2005-11-05 14:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
Was Straight not traumatizing to you?"
i'm fucked up to this very day.
"
Not half as fucked up as those who think they're sane. Don't sweat the
- Petty Things
Don't pet the
- Sweaty Things
Water what you want to grow.
--Curiosity
"
:smile: :smile: :grin: :wink:
-
Dude, scroll up. We still on the same page? I think so, hope so. Leme know.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
"Isn't your pants' zipper supposed to be in the front?"
--Hobbs to Calvin
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DeRosa said that students recently received a visit from a school psychologist and Whitby in an effort to clear up the incident, but the problem only has been compounded.
Imagine that! :roll: If they can get you to ask the wrong questions they don't have to worry about the answers
--Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow (Proverbs for Paranoids)
-
But, getting back to the topic at hand...
Earlier, Anon wrote:
Sometimes I read these angry posts and it's like folks are real comfy as the victim. I was messed up. They did this to me so I am this way now.
Then,
On 2005-08-19 11:14:00, dragonfly wrote:
I'm talking about being defeated, settling in to victimhood as an identity. Replacing the phaser identity with a victim identity. And defending that as furiously as we defended our program.
I think you're not wrong. It's one thing to recognize what was done to us, how it was done, by whom and why. Now onto other things.
Aristotle said "There are no contradictions. If you think you've found one, check your premises."
If the Program fucked w/ us and had the tacit and, sometimes, proudly spoken support of the powers that be in doing so, then what the fuck else are these sadistic lunatics doing w/ the power we (so far) allow them to have?
That's the important question. I'm done w/ the past, except as it can inform the future.
For myself, I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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On 2005-11-05 15:27:00, Antigen wrote:
"Dude, scroll up. We still on the same page? I think so, hope so. Leme know.
"
i dunno. i pretty much think so. it takes a lot of energy though, sittin' here all this time tryin' to communicate and articulate all these abstract relationships. i think sometime or another we may jus' have ta get together and discuss the state of the world over a 12 pack.
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Well, aren't we still on for early December? Hope so. I was looking forward to it.
Freedom has a thousand charms to show, That slaves, howe'er contented, never know.
William Cowper, a British Christian poet & hymn writer (18th century)
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Oh yeah. we are. :smile:
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Cool :em:
sunday school: A prison in which children do penance for the evil conscience of their parents.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
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On 2005-11-05 14:40:00, Antigen wrote:
" But just about all that I learned from schooling was about how to subvert the control.
"
What do you mean ??
-
On 2005-11-05 16:39:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:
"
On 2005-11-05 14:40:00, Antigen wrote:
" But just about all that I learned from schooling was about how to subvert the control.
"
What do you mean ??"
Well, for instance, "some teachers who taught me very good things by example; usually while bending or breaking the rules."
Whenever I got called for some infraction or other (say I skipped an assignment, was late, blurted out some rude joke, etc.) I could count on having more time and wit to make it SO not worth the trouble to the teacher to hold me to whatever punishment they came up with. "Write an essay, you say? Ok, cool, I like writing. How about one about your spoiled rotten kids who I babysat for free last weekend?" (and I could do it in code, too, so that everyone knew wtf I was talking about but no one could prove id LOL)
Or better, more friendly, conflict free instances. Like when a favorite teacher of mine just decided we all needed some time off to go for a walk that day. Don't remember the drama, but we were all fractious. So he bent the rules and made up a clever cover. He gave us each a dime for the pay phone and told us to call our parents and get verbal permission, on the honor system, for a field trip. Oh, sure, he did legitimize it by pointing out some interesting lichen while we were out there. But really, it was just a walk accross the field and through the woods; a much needed break.
And then there was just the typical, every day goofing off, passing notes, cheating on tests, forging signatures on those I flunked and on detention slips and such. Almost everything good that I got out of school was all about how to not accept the philosophy, how to beat the system and have a little dignity and autonomy in spite of it.
The cultural hunger for a substance that lets you hold affordable conversations with God, watch walls melt, breathe colors, and explore your psyche remains unsated.
--Ryan Grim for Slate, April 1, 2004
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On 2005-11-05 15:46:00, Antigen wrote:
"But, getting back to the topic at hand...
Earlier, Anon wrote:
Sometimes I read these angry posts and it's like folks are real comfy as the victim. I was messed up. They did this to me so I am this way now.
Then,
On 2005-08-19 11:14:00, dragonfly wrote:
I'm talking about being defeated, settling in to victimhood as an identity. Replacing the phaser identity with a victim identity. And defending that as furiously as we defended our program.
I think you're not wrong. It's one thing to recognize what was done to us, how it was done, by whom and why. Now onto other things.
Aristotle said "There are no contradictions. If you think you've found one, check your premises."
If the Program fucked w/ us and had the tacit and, sometimes, proudly spoken support of the powers that be in doing so, then what the fuck else are these sadistic lunatics doing w/ the power we (so far) allow them to have?
That's the important question. I'm done w/ the past, except as it can inform the future.
For myself, I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82"
I just think it's ridiculous to even start a thread on whether or not another Straight survivor is handling their coming to terms in the right way, not settling into victimhood. The reason I think it is ridiculous is people don't even know. You can be glib and say that people are "replacing a phaser identity with a victim identity", but the whole paradigm of how you deal with history and being a victim of crime, whatever difficulty it is, you are not supposed to "play the victim" and so on, that kind of scrutinizing of other people's minds and intentions towards the recovery of their mental and physical health, I dunno, it smacks of the 12-Step and all that other smarmy k-rap you can find on the shelves at the bookstore. You don't know til you walked a mile in somebody's shoes how difficult their path may be. I can't look at the bum lurching up and down Church Street and have any judgement other than against myself for not giving him what he needs. Are you offering to assist Straight survivors with the things it takes to get better? If not, perhaps you had better judge yourself as the victim of something before you start peering into their souls from the priest's side of the confessional at the Church of the Always Working Their Programs.
-
I just think it's ridiculous to even start a thread on whether or not another Straight survivor is handling their coming to terms in the right way, not settling into victimhood. The reason I think it is ridiculous is people don't even know. You can be glib and say that people are "replacing a phaser identity with a victim identity", but the whole paradigm of how you deal with history and being a victim of crime, whatever difficulty it is, you are not supposed to "play the victim" and so on, that kind of scrutinizing of other people's minds and intentions towards the recovery of their mental and physical health, I dunno, it smacks of the 12-Step and all that other smarmy k-rap you can find on the shelves at the bookstore. You don't know til you walked a mile in somebody's shoes how difficult their path may be. I can't look at the bum lurching up and down Church Street and have any judgement other than against myself for not giving him what he needs. Are you offering to assist Straight survivors with the things it takes to get better? If not, perhaps you had better judge yourself as the victim of something before you start peering into their souls from the priest's side of the confessional at the Church of the Always Working Their Programs. "
Well said! :tup:
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Well, I suppose you could take it that way. I took it as questioning the purpose of the discussion.
I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or agnostic. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
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On 2005-11-05 08:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm still in Straight. They let us use computers here now though, thanks to Children and Families."
Christmas?!? There ain't no fucking Christmas here in STRAIGHT!!! Coal and switches, bitches n snitches; as long as your parents ain't gettin sued by the man for failure to pay for your treatment.
-
I wonder if a person that is not from Straight could understand our conversations here on this forum?
-
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you're always gonna be stoned. And melvin and miller will always own a piece of your life unless you kill them. do this, now.