Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 22, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
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For all those who seem inflamed by the word "cult" associated with the group, I have one (or two) questions:
Once you decided to leave (for whatever reasons), why did most of you stay far away, without even a phone call to your "friends" for such a long time? Why didn't you drop by for a rap every once in a while or call one of the staff or long time grads (who were closely connected to the seed) for dinner some night?
Something tells me that you knew better and in your mind your were thinkin', "I'll just stay the f____ away, for a long, long time." Or was it that the "unusual closeness" was somewhat disturing to someone who had left and might comback to find himself on the front row, once again. "Gee, I was just droppin' by to say, hi you guys! I certainly don't deserve this much attention, again." But all of this is my intial gut feeling.
I'm sincerely curious, why YOU stayed away. Come on reach deep down inside, be honest and answer why, especially if you so deeply supported the group.
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In 1985 when staff told me I had to park my '63 olds and get rides into the Seed everyday because I didn't have the money for car insurance or gas, because I was one of the guys told to come in everyday.
I knew I had to leave.
While I watched others work and have the things I wanted, the important things, like a job with health insurance/a sense of gaining in this world.
In my mind then after 3 yrs of working to achieve what i saw others take for granted, Freedom, I finally realized I wasn't the "cream of the crop" and I told Bob W. as much. I had made a mistake coming down here.
I left the next day after my 45 second converstion with Lybbi.
Bob told me to call in a couple of days. So, I called from Kentucky on my way back to OH. I believe Bob W. was as surprised to be talking to me that day as I was to him. I hung up the phone and realized I would never have anything to do with the Seed again.
That moment the people I believed were my friends/family for 7 yrs, I knew I would never know anymore.
It was fuzzy at first than it became clearer everday. I never had friends at the Seed, just conditional acquaintances.
The day I arrived back home my brother was waiting to meet me and my life's journey was finally to begin.
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bob w. was still there in 1985?
do you, or anyone here know how long he stayed there?
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well, I was ostracized and not spoken to by the seedlings because I graduated and decided that I wanted to be a normal kid, so I started talking to the "jocks" the "druggies" and all the other kids in my school. This caused the faithfull to see me as the enemy.
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That's why I'm glad to be rid of the whole bunch of robots. The only people I [aid attention to was staff during raps. I hardly ever had anything to add to the rap sessions. Myfirst old-Timer meeting was worse so just stayed gone and ent on with my life.
Being sleepy can impair someone's ability to do thier job. People
can sleep at home and come to the job with sleepiness still in their system. The sleepiness can still be there long after the employee has slept. When someone is found to be sleepy on the job, they can claim that they went to sleep the night before. The only solution to this problem is to ban employees from sleeping.
--Arthur Slabosky
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Bob W was there to the end. He now resides in KY.
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wtaylorg, it's great to hear you are doing well.
As I posted once before, you and I spent several days distributing flyers in the early 80's. Also, paraphrasing Cleveland, if there was anything real about my experience, it was getting to know people like you there, who in my book were more authentic than 99% of the others.
All I can say is, you missed nothing original all the years to follow '85, to the very end.
A few of us weathered the storm and decided to be unpopular, while we made decisions that went against "staff" simply because they continued to promote the old party line that a real education was "bullshit," unless you had a "calling" like certain members that seemed to come from a line of doctors or lawyers. Or better yet, according to the top dog, "if you had that unmistakable aura of a politician or some other high ranking member of society, then you should go to school, just don't forget who made you.? IMO so much of it was about imaginary "blue blood lineage.". . . if you know what I mean.
About the only element of goodness I have remaining from all those years are certain positive points in my life, which I do attribute to the experience, regardless of human flaws, great or small. However, I have had to work hard, and continue to, trying to shed the hardened, competitive, paranoid, insecure, stressed-out edge that environment so effectively promoted. I, despite the strong opinions of many individuals who post, do not hate or resent anyone there, but I do feel sorry for them because despite (as anon wrote above the "unusual closeness") almost all of my "friends" there hardly knew people like you or me at all. I hate to quote popular culture, but when it came to the relationship between that group and me, I am reminded of Madonna's song "Nobody Knows Me." The same is true for me not knowing them.
I would like to believe that if they had really listened to what they were preaching things would have ended radically different, but many of the ones preaching had tremendous egos, so what can we expect, right? The worst for me was feeling the loss of friends at the very end. Without getting too overdramatic, I spent several nights in tears wondering if the emptiness I had been left with would ever go away. I can forgive, but am aware that those in power knew that their selfish decisions would unravel a wave of pain for so many of my friends who were so blind to manipulation and deceit on the part of the leadership. It took me at least one year to start seeing the "clear as day writing on the wall." But it was beautiful to wake up one morning and feel really free. The irony is of course that I thank all the ones who brought it all down because they did us one hellofa lifetime favor. Thank You wherever you all ran to. Obviously, I do not believe my version is the absolute Truth, but the funny part is that it no longer has to be for me to be free.
I know of one case that, IMO, couldn't live without the "falsely imposed structure" and threw himself in what I would consider a religious cult, within one year of the experience. I, on the other hand, have not gotten over an uneasiness with being a part of any group.
For you it was leaving that lifted the fog. For me it took witnessing the final days, when all the key players had had enough time to settle in to a comfortable place, where they could really start playing games with peoples' lives and loyalties. The myth died for me when not soon after that, I realized I never really wanted to be there or even wanted to ever know most of those people. They were very different than who I was and how I wanted to live my life. Perhaps, like you, I should have had the guts to walk away a long time ago, but. . .no regrets at this point, just working on a new place I can call my own.
I have decided, in fact, that except for one or two people that were always transparent about their lives and did not try to manipulate me or the way I looked at them, I want very little to do with the people I knew from that era. Actually, for the first time I really am applying the saying, which they taught me: "We are not really good for each other, so you go along your way, and I will find the road to where I want to be . . ." Best Wishes and Good Luck On Your Journey.
::rainbow:: [ This Message was edited by: 80's Guy on 2005-09-23 08:48 ][ This Message was edited by: 80's Guy on 2005-09-23 09:06 ]
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Check your private messages.
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I stayed away because...hmmm...my mind was so bent from that place (belieiving I was just worhtless and full of shit) I allowed myself to be sucked into yet another cult - a christian church. I felt so badly about who I was after the seed experience I was just ripe for yet another cult. Which, incidentally, once I demonstrated some form of original thought and question, I was asked to leave.
From what I read here, original thought was also grounds for people to be asked to leave the seed
Don't get me wrong here. There are all kinds churches that abuse members under the guise of god's love and they are just as strong in their ability to weaken and demean a person as the seed was.
Do I regret the double experience? No. I learned from both places. I learned about truth and the total manipulation of truth. I learned about love and the total manipualtion of love. Faith and trust - same thing.
I would venture to guess that had I shown up on the seed door step in 1975 after getting kicked out of that particular evangelical chrisitian church, I would have likely been started-over.
Trust the seed? Never. Not then and not now.
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LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA
Handlebar yep I think you would look much better with a handlebar mustashe. :grin:
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Why did you stay away Ft Lauderdale? Damn its hard to keep you on topic...
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Greg, First off, congrats on post #2000! I don't know if you win a prize, or anything. Ask Ging. I would like to address the 'why did YOU stay away' question.
At some point after I graduated the second time, I decided I was different from the rest of the group, and it was OK for me to drink a beer or 12 from time to time. I continued going to meetings for a while, and nobody 'busted' me, but I soon felt like I didn't have much in common with the group anymore. I no longer had the honesty edge, and didn't feel I fit in. I had a secret, and it just got too uncomfortable for me to sit there and play 'straight', knowing I was technically not. The separation, for ME, was painful as I enjoyed the place, and felt a part of something positive for a long time. I am grateful for the life I have now, and
I love my family fiercely. I would take a bullet for my wife, my kids, both natural and step, my grandchildren (only one bullet between them...hey, I don't want to get killed or anything :roll: see ya!
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Thom - you should check with Letterman to see if there are any writer openings. Your good man or your good man ::rocker::
Greg, I was ther at the end. What are you really asking?
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On 2005-09-22 13:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"For all those who seem inflamed by the word "cult" associated with the group, I have one (or two) questions:
Once you decided to leave (for whatever reasons), why did most of you stay far away, without even a phone call to your "friends" for such a long time? Why didn't you drop by for a rap every once in a while or call one of the staff or long time grads (who were closely connected to the seed) for dinner some night?
Something tells me that you knew better and in your mind your were thinkin', "I'll just stay the f____ away, for a long, long time." Or was it that the "unusual closeness" was somewhat disturing to someone who had left and might comback to find himself on the front row, once again. "Gee, I was just droppin' by to say, hi you guys! I certainly don't deserve this much attention, again." But all of this is my intial gut feeling.
I'm sincerely curious, why YOU stayed away. Come on reach deep down inside, be honest and answer why, especially if you so deeply supported the group.
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I can only speak for myself.
My closest and dearest friends in the world today are former Seedlings. It is through one of them that I found out about this site. (The bond between us, of course, has matured over the years) It not only began at The Seed, but was only possible because of The Seed. I'm not going to write an essay here about friendship, but I will say I consider myself to be extremely fortunate to have these people as friends, relationships of a love, depth and commitment I never would have dreamed possible once upon a time. I think, probably, much of what's missing, in the way of understanding, is that much of the loyalty I, (and others), exhibit at this site is because of this, as well as, what The Seed did for me, (us), personally.
As to why I didn't return??? This should be patently obvious. Though I thought about it many times over the years, I believed that my presence there would have been, at the very least, disruptive. Lybbi's reaction to me, when we chanced to meet in 2001, was disappointing, but certainly not unexpected, and confirmed what I had always believed. Besides, as some of you, (later-day Seedlings), have pointed out, The Seed became, (was already becoming), exactly what I believed it would when I left.
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John,
I will confirm that I too, started to form what could have been wonderful friendships at the Seed. I will also note that the Seed encouraged me to reveal parts of myself that had been hidden by the need I felt to 'be cool' as a typically insecure kid. Singing songs, doing the soft shoe, and even the hokey-pokey blew my 'image' and I could be silly and goofy and have fun. These things provide the basis for the bond I feel with other ex-Seedlings Lauderdale, 80s Guy, Wtaylor and a few others who post here.
The flipside of that was that the Seed then required me (via peer pressure) to develop a Seed-acceptable 'image' and hide OTHER parts of myself - including creativity, ambition, independence, healthy sexual relationships - and that led me to leave.
I know that you and perhaps some others posting here might minimize those things or say it wasn't that way, at least when you were there, but this is true - dating, jobs, recreation, friendships and living arrangements were all planned or approved by Art and senior staff. And this was for senior oldcomers and newcomers alike, although high-status (read: people Art liked) people had a tiny bit more freedom.
You can say that this was 'necessary' for a variety of reasons, but many of us
Seedlings eventually rebelled and left, and for those that stayed, the whole thing blew up in their faces. There was way too much control and rigidity, and I had to be just as big a phoney in some ways at the Seed as I was before. Parts of the image where better but it still was fake. And for me, unhealthy.
By the way, there was now way for me to live there and 'take what I wanted and leave the rest' - that wasn't an option. I was either a total Seed kid or not - and by total I mean the whole thing - never questioning staff, not associating with anyone not involved with the Seed, not going to school, dating or trying a new career unless staff approved (and for me, staff didn't approve - those things I could do only after I left).
For seven years I did hold these things down within myself, thinking that I was one of the 'chosen few' who would lead 'Art's army' and that if I was humble and obediant I would be 'a part of the solution,' even if it meant that we could 'only help one kid' it would all be worth it. Thinking about myself or my needs was 'selfish' or just 'getting into my head' and thinking for myself was being an 'intellectual asshole.' How many times did I say to myself, I don't like this but - 'ours is not to question why, ours is but to do or die.'?
So my life as a celebate, lonely, insecure, uneducated, unhappy but loyal seedling continued for those long years, and why? Because I was an confused adolescent who had smoked pot probably 20 times? Because I came from a disfunctional family and I was looking to belong to something? Because Art and staff told me so?
No disrespect to you, Lauderdale, Thom, Richard, Robin or others who are loyal to the dream of the Seed, but I feel I must question it and everything that I accepted as dogma that came out of it, either AA derived or whatever. Those tools can be used to alter someones reality, and don't we all know some 12 steppers who are addicted to meetings? Nothing wrong with that, (or booze or pot, as far as I'm concerned) as long as it doesn't interfere with your ability to have a happy, productive, honest life. And everyone has to figure that out for themselves.
Best,
Walter
PS - Here's a quote that says it well: "Power is actualized only where word and deed have not parted company, where words are not empty and deeds not brutal, where words are not used to veil intentions but to disclose realities, and deeds are not used to violate and destroy but to establish relations and create new realities." Hannah Arendt
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On 2005-09-26 10:05:00, cleveland wrote:
and don't we all know some 12 steppers who are addicted to meetings?
Well, yeah. Thom Mcnulty for one....
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On 2005-09-26 21:03:00, GregFL wrote:
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On 2005-09-26 10:05:00, cleveland wrote:
and don't we all know some 12 steppers who are addicted to meetings?
Well, yeah. Thom Mcnulty for one....
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I've been addicted to far worse things, my friend
OR
Who are you to judge how i choose to worship?
We all enjoy freedom of religion here in the USA.
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Hey, you can worship in twelve step meetings all you want Thom. I support your right to independently choose to do so, on your own free will.
Doesn't mean I won't call bullshit on it tho, and it doesn't mean I won't call out the violation of basic human rights when people are coerced into your religion, not to mention the violation of the constitution of the united states of america.
Then we get off into the subject when the twelve steps (or some of them) are mixed with coercive thought control and the lock down of non addicted individuals against their will....
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I am all for people going to AA or other 12 step groups if they find fellowship there, but to me it's all 'a bunch of hooey' - no different from most other religions in that respect. But it should be a choice to go, and to leave, and to question all of those slogans.
By the way, Ann Lamott is a terrific auther and AA-er who I respect (Bird by Bird, Operation Instructions), also Augustin Burroughs (Dry, Running with Scissors). I read them and I see what they get out of it, but for me I just can't get over the Oxford Group quaksterism origins of all of that (see my posts here on this and read the Agent Orange website to find out about this Seed-like group circa 1920!). But maybe you want to eat Christ's body, chant, do a sufi dance, or read Dianetics, too...whatever! It's still all a bunch of hooey to me!
Walter[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-09-27 07:14 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-09-27 07:16 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-09-27 07:16 ]
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Wow what a great question and some great responses.
I have not posted in a few weeks only because I have been so busy at work but, I always take a few minutes to read the posts.
I believe this question can actually go to the core or at least come close to the reason of why I post here on this site. I usually post as a Pro-Seed supported and look at my Seed years as an overall positive experience and look at that time with fond memories and great friendships that I forged during my six years at the Seed (1983-1989). I still believe the Seed help me build a solid and well grounded foundation in which I needed to be well adjusted and have control of my life. I will admit that I only knew the Seed through my eyes. I was in my twenties and a full fledge drug addict with some serious criminal charges weighing heavy over me at the time. I did not want to question the Seed or take any risks as to put myself at the mercy of the court system. This was my primary motivating driving force at the time and I can only imagine how different what some young teenage scared kids perceptive could have been like.
I will be the first to admit that the Seed did have a dark side and the recognition of this was the primary reason why I decided to leave. I will not blame or ever claim that the Seed imprisoned me, this I did to myself, through my lack of wanting to take responsibility for my life and for the failures in my actions before and during my stay at the Seed.
The Seed taught valid lessons and were very sound lessons such: as self discipline, my responsibilities to those around me and my affect on the people around me, self love is proved through action, Attitude is key to one?s happiness, We make ourselves and define who we want to be, We are works in progress and I can go on and on with these lessons and these lessons are to this day what define me and make me proud of who I am and who I am becoming.
My problem was still my own self weakness in which the power of the group manipulated and played with us as individuals or as we fit into the group. One of the first things taught at the Seed was how peer pressure dictated our actions but what was never discussed was how this same peer pressure still was used to mold us into someone else?s vision of what we should be and how we should live our lives. Sometimes I would like to believe these things were born out of good intentions not born from selfness or blind ambition. At first I could and still understand the logic of being away from the so call world but what the Seed refused to do was to allow people to truly be rejoined into a normal world.
I think Libby resented the years she put into the Seed as she watched other people walk back into a world that was not as evil as was professed. People actually survived and prospered and did not forget who they were. Libby actually told me that if someone had left the Seed I no longer needed to consider that person as my friend and I remember this sounded so wrong and cold hearted to me. I remember during one of football games at the beach how Bob W. lost his temper with Art cause Art was pissed off that Bob?s team actually out played his team. Bob finally held back and apologized as to bear witness to all the proper chain of command in the respect that should be given. I remember thinking could this be a crack in the wall? I quickly reminded myself as to not look for any type of justification shake it off and fall back into the line.
The Seed after a while smothered me and stunted the growth I needed to do for myself on my own. On one occasion I went back to visit and heard someone talking about how what pieces of shit we were without Art, I remember thinking how wrong this person was and decided to walk away and never come back. . Art was man not a God and I remember the hypocrisy of how people constantly gave their praises to King Art. In spite of these gut feelings I stayed and kept the façade up. Why because it was easy and convenient not fight my instilled fears of the world and not speak my mind against what I saw as unfair. In other words it was my own lack of balls to stand up and speak the awful truth I?d rather blend in and avoid any type of dangerous attention. So who?s fault was that? I can only blame my own weakness and lack of gumption to define and place myself in the position I wanted to be at. In truth I did nor want to be one of Art?s favorites because of the attention and work that would have brought down on me. In truth I settled and once I settled I stopped moving forward. I begin to feel frustration and a complete lack of progress with all the aspects of my life this sparked incidents of my infamous temper. Finally, when staff realized this because I could no longer conceal my frustrations inside of me I was polity asked to pack my bags and go home. I could not have felt any more relief when this happened so I gladly complied and went back home to try myself out in some kind of new life.
In retrospect going home was the best thing that happened to me now I was forced to grow by really applying and testing what I stood for and how much resolve was I willing to apply. No other Seed person there to encourage me on or chew me out when I needed a kick in the pants. I got what I wanted most and that was my true absolute freedom and as I received it I discovered what a double edge sword this really was. One of the great flaws of the Seed was that it was all to willing to take you in and take care of make your decisions for you so that you could basically hide from the world at the Seed. Why the Seed did this can be debated forever.
I post here not scorn or judge but to look for answers so that I grow and develop as a person and as I was taught to become a better man, too bad so many of us did not recognize our own short comings and allowed them to flourish stagnating and eating away at us. For the long timers that stayed at the Seed this resulted with the implosion of the last core group leaving many people alone and devastated.
After much thought on this subject and on the reasons why I stayed and eventually left the Seed it is becoming more apparent that I always could and had control of my life. It just depended on what I wanted to do with myself and to blame the Seed or peoples manipulation of me during my stay there would only be distortion of the truth. Shit I?ll lie to someone but the one thing I can not do is lie to myself because once I start believing my own lies than I will really be walking on dangerous ground.
Did the Seed manipulate? Yes to a degree. Was the Seed full of human flaw? Of course it was but to sit here and cry the blues about how the Seed fucked me up that would just be side stepping the issue that in truth I always was acting out of my own free will. I stayed caused I wanted to and left because I wanted to.
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Great posts!
Anon, it's useful to figure out how to deal w/ any situation life hands you, regardless of your own degree of responsibility in having created it. It's just a matter of "well, here I am now, so what do I do about it?" And I think you did the healthiest thing.
But I don't think you can or should think of it as all your fault. It's not asif you're the only sucker to ever get run around by this crowd. By "this crowd" I mean those individuals we knew back when as well as all the other, similar treatment cults.
I don't think it's a distortion of the truth to blame the Seed or peoples manipulation. I think it's a valid aspect of the truth. It would be a distortion to pretend otherwise.
And I don't know where you get the idea anybody's lives are fucked up or that anybody's blaming the Seed for it. Well, actually I have a guess. I think the idea has been stated as hard fact so often around here that it's just accepted as such by some.
In my view, the stepcult has done a lot of damage to my family. To some extent, that was true before the Seed. But the Seed gave my mother a bludgeon where her dad had only the political currency in our family to provide her a snowball.
So what did I do? I did what you did. I walked away. Well, it was a little more complicated than that. I planned and executed an escape, sought help from one of my brothers, went to court and then, just one more intake interview and I was finally free!
And my life's not fucked up. In fact, I'm the only one in the family still w/ the same spouse for nearly 20 years, buying a house, going to soccer games, driving a mini van. Ok, so it does have a bumper sticker that says "Doing my part to piss off the Religious Right". But I remain a soccer mom in a mini van. And happy at it, too. I won't discuss the details, even to settle an argument, because that's personal info about my minor kids and just not appropriate for public fare.
And it's extremely relavent and worth discussing all these years later. While we have all been not discussing the bad side of things, an entire industry has grown up based on the Synanon model.
The Seed was just one little tiny part of that. Right now, politicians and business men are responding to the false perception that juvenile delenquency is steadily on the rise, threatening the future of the nation while Synanon/Stepcraft based treatment is a safe and effective cure for it. They won't even prosecute over deaths in these places most of the time. They don't find the proven cases of hog tying, rapes, medical neglect or other forms of overt child abuse anywhere near as compelling as the "teenager as brutal monster" myth. Can you believe Narconon was providing substance abuse prevention in California public highschools for years before anyone even noticed? Is that a panic response to a non-issue or what?
I think that's bass ackward and it's time those of us who have experience w/ this industry start getting the truth out.
I think a more level headed response the youth problem would be to attend a highschool or college reunion at least once in 10 years. No better remedy to the myths about kids ta day than to spend a weeking w/ everyone who knew you before, during and after your disco year.
All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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a hard right, then an uppercut.
Two great posts back to back!
:grin:
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During the early 80?s the group was much smaller and was divided into two basic divisions. The first group consisted of what I would refer to as the core group these people had been around for years from the early or mid 70?s?? they walked the walk and talked the talk?. The Seed was their life they professed lived breath and slept the Seed philosophy all with the underlying idealism that what was being done at the Seed was the most important thing in the world. People?s lives were being saved by the raps and by the collective example of the old comers. This group had more influence and power due to their experience and time dealing with the politics of the day to day affairs of the group. Most people in this group were the ones that remained until the end.
The second group consisted of the newer people who were either recent graduates or people still on their programs. People that went through the program during the 80?s usually once they graduated stuck around for a short period of time and than resumed back to their lives. In the 80?s the group was older most people were in their 20?s or 30?s and most had been around the block once or twice. Some minors still came in but they were few and far between and thank God for that, I always looked at the minors as a major pain in the ass.
Since the group was much smaller every one kind of fell into their niche and had their own persona that they would be known for. Some people related very well and were very articulate in the group others were the funny one?s etc. Under the pretense of helping or being part of the good to help people get their lives together was the single most important theme and this was reflected with our attitudes to be all giving, all dedicated and lead by example. For the most part what was preached was that a job was just a method of making just enough money to be able to do the most important work and that was to save lives.
One thing that sticks out in my mind was how the importance of developing close bonds were stress and talked about we were one big family and any person from the Seed was considered special and treated with the up most love and respect (I always related to it as if we were kind of a secret society). With in this however was a certain distance that was kept between the guys and the girls although we shared great friendships and love, a formal relationship had to be blessed by Staff and of course Art. (So much for the technical aspects of the Seed).
The emotional aspects were much more complicated and with this being said in a very general and superficial way I can only explain while only able to capture very little of the emotion that I felt at the time. I find it very hard to relate to a Seed that was harsh and unbending and can only conclude that was a Seed of a bygone era. A Seed in its infancy along with a very young staff and group.
I mostly remember being killed with love by everyone around me. A camaraderie between people I have yet to experience again. When I related in the group being showered with I love you?s. When a new comer came to live at the house how everyone pulled together to help that person out. I remember a very close nit friendship that develop between myself and my original old comers. A genuine happiness to see or spend time with someone else from the Seed. Being able to work with other people from the Seed was to me very Important. It seamed to me that people took the time to get to know me and I took time to get to know the people around me. A never ending collective of experience and knowledge to draw from for guidance and I can go on and on.
Even though I have criticized some staff or their methodology I still liked and trusted Staff. They did not always make the right decisions but I felt their heart was in the right place. As for Art Baker although I kept my distance I never felt he was out to use me or anyone for that matter. On many occasions he opened the door for me to be close to him and it was I who shied away.
The reason I post these things in this particular post is to stress what made it so difficult to leave the Seed. To walk away was probably one of the most difficult decisions I ever had to make.
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Ok, so then why would you not stay in touch w/ all those very close, well loved and supportive friends after you left?
I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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Actually I still do with some of them, that?s how I found out about this Web site. With time people go their own ways and I lost touch. Some of the Seed people I still talk to are now on both sides of this (for lack of a better word ?argument?) and with time I also changed but the core of what I learned at the Seed grew and as I grew in strength and once I became more certain in who I was and who I wanted to be my independence grew.
I have posted here on many occasions talking about the good and the bad about the Seed.
One thing I was against was how certain people at the Seed or in other life situations such as religious organizations or certain groups wanted me to see the world in a very clear cut black or white perceptive and only their way would be tolerated and accepted. At this point in my life I refuse to be that regimented, controlled or bullied into a certain way of acting or thinking. I find myself constantly questioning my beliefs and opinions and in that same spirit in which I have criticized some of the Seeds short comings I also give the Seed validity and I give due credit to the Seed for it?s positive attributes I was able to take from there.
I do not see the Seed as the absolute evil so many others on this site seam to take and I have found that in life there are much more grey areas than there are black and white situations. The point of my last post was to emphasize the emotional tie I had to the Seed and that tie did not come from a victim abuser relationship but born out of kindness and love.
I will not post or talk here about psychological theories or books or studies and how they can relate to the Seed, I will only talk about my own observations or experiences that I had during my time there and this is where I formulate my thoughts on this matter.
:smokin:
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One more thing Ginger
:eek: :eek: One thing that I will agree with you 100 % is how a whole Drug rehabilitation industry was born out of the available insurance money set aside for private drug treatment. How did all these 28 day programs for $ 30,000.00 a shot suddenly pop up everywhere? This I view as both abusive and criminal.
[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-09-29 15:45 ]
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No, Jgar, I'm not talking about former seedlings keeping in touch w/ each other. I'm talking about former seedlings keeping in touch w/ current ones. Are you saying you did that? That you left, quit going to raps, but still socialized w/ people who stayed?
It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
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Quotation
No, Jgar, I'm not talking about former seedlings keeping in touch w/ each other. I'm talking about former seedlings keeping in touch w/ current ones. Are you saying you did that? That you left, quit going to raps, but still socialized w/ people who stayed?
Hey Ginger to answer your question yes and no. When I first left I called the Seed about once every 2 weeks or so and about once a month I would visit and catch a rap session. I found that this began to create internal conflicts with me and it became more apparent what a crutch the Seed had become to me. As I separated myself farther from the group and I tried to establish my independence the more infrequent my visits became and the less contact I had with the people still there until, I never returned again. Once I realized that I needed to go my own way and cut my dependence I very rarely made contact. About 10 years later when a cousin of mine was on the program he informed me that staff extended an invitation to me to go to a Seed reunion and I went. During than I reestablished some ties with people still part of the Seed this was around 2002. After that the Seed closed it?s doors and I kept certain friends from the Seed in which I still have contact with and consider some of my closest freinds.
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"One thing that I will agree with you 100 % is how a whole Drug rehabilitation industry was born out of the available insurance money set aside for private drug treatment. How did all these 28 day programs for $ 30,000.00 a shot suddenly pop up everywhere? This I view as both abusive and criminal."
I completely agree with you. The rage now and for the past 15 or so years is the mental health field. Slap your kid, who is not behaving in a adolescent behavioral institute and presto chango....4-6 weeks they are cured. Of course, that time frame is always dictated by how long and how much the insurance company will pay. You would not believe the kids and parents I deal with that have committed their children, basically good kids that have just had no boundaries or guidelines set by their parents. It is absolutely heartbreaking.
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Jgar,
Props to you for this. If everyone posted like you do we'd get a lot further in this dialog. I respect that.
Walter
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Yeah, I'm really surprised by that response. I ran into a couple of Seedlings in around 88 or so and it was just like I remembered, except that they were older.
These were women in their mid `20's or so, about my age. They had on Seed tshirts, jeans and identical hair cuts. I said something to them like "Wow, the Seed's still around? My brothers were there years ago. How's it going?" Nothing hostile at all. But they just looked at each other and said nothing. So I told them my name and said "Say hi to Art for me". They did the same thing again then ran out the door.
So I assumed it was still the same "No talking to splits, pull offs or screw ups" policy and enforced asif that meant everyone not explicitly approved by staff.
Frankly, I thought it was hillarious. Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte
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Hey Ginger, :???:
Sounds about right and that attitude was all too typical.One of the things that use to bring a bitter taste to me.It always seamed to me that the girls were alot more zelous than the guys. :???: Do you remember thier names I probably know them very well.
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Oh, I guess you did know them. But they certainly didn't tell me their names. I'm tellin' yah, they said not one word! They acted like I was a ghost or something; paid for a couple of dozen boxes of donuts and then ran out the door. I guess they had to go report themselves for having been talked to by a.... what? Someone who recognized their tshirts?
Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
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well one thing was since most people werent encouraged to think a whole lot on their own, in a situation as you are describing ginger they probably freaked out a bit. thats the sad thing i think. in some ways certain things that were taught make sense to me. dont hang out with your old druggie friends. ok thats simple enough, if you were doing drugs with this person and wish to stop, ths would be a stupid thing to do. but as opposed to applying common sense to this idea and taking people as you meet them. do they seem good, do they seem bad, and making a decision, it was applied to everyone. the seed stayed isolated, and looked at everyone else on the outside as bad. or possibly bad which they treated just the same. as people worked in smaller and smaller groups, more independantly this dimminshed a little, but only a little. and heaven for bid someone should come walking up to you and say something. worse yet, have someone walk up to you of the opposite sex and say something to you. not everyone is really freaking out!
and if i am correct in who jgar is, then when he returned for the reunion something similar happened with him,although he may not have been aware of it. but oddly enough by "this person" being nice and friendly some people were a bit freaked out. mainly wondering if he had changed since the time everyone knew him. of course everyone changes, this doesnt make it a bad thing. secondly even if we do make some changes for the worse this isnt the end of the world. we are after all human. but in seed eyes this made you a total failure. mistakes were not permitted. (ignoring their own flaws of course) some people wanted to remain distant because of the risk that he's different. oh my. contact with an outside person....terrible. of course some people this didnt phase. some people did have a more reasonable attitude and basically ignored "the approve behavior". what i always thought was sad was that the seed in some ways taught some good things, but then failed to practice encourage them, and the people who learned it didnt pratice it. being told to "think for yourself" was contant but in reality everything had to be approved. why more people didnt notice this discrepancy is beyond me, mainly i think people wanted the crutch but thats another story for another time, and even when someone saw these discrepancies most often they didnt do anything about it. so when meeting someone it should have been that big a deal to just see where it goes. if the person is bad then you just dont talk anymore. if not, hey maybe you actually met someone worthwhile...wow. you mean they werent from the seed how's that possible??? being taught to treat people with respect, but then failing to do it...sad
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Hey Anon,
Liked your post and I agree. By the way Jgar(me) (would have been know at the Seed as Corky G. :grin: :grin:
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Hey Anon,
:roll:
I was all too aware of how I would be perceived and of course judged. What I find as funny is how that insecurity ruled and prevailed when we preached the importance of being solid and secure people. It was painfully obvious that we were anything but. If they only would of realized how much I thought of all those people (Seed kids) with nothing more than fondness and love and a genuine nostalgia.
Yet the thought of being or feeling so trapped scared the hell out of me. I used to have nightmares about this.
:roll: [ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-10-01 11:27 ]
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then i was correct!! i wasnt sure if you knew at the time. i was actually somewhat shocked by itall. for having the reunion and looking forward to people coming , why was someone so worried then. it was on one had pathetic. if the worse thing you did was go to dinner wiht someone and decide that they werent the person you thought they were, what have you really lost? the seed at one point was more about fear in this way.
your second post there also raises a good point. if the seed really had let people be honest about this stuff, maybe more people would have talked about it and actually become more secure and stable. but you were really just expected in some ways to maintain the illusion of it. i was somewhat dismayed as i realized more and more people were less and less capable then there reputation stated they should be. i can also understand that. if you arent allowed to make decisions for 10 years or 15 years of your life at some point you will become incapble of it. and yet they encouraged this to go on. or allowed this to go on.
in the end i believe where the seed failed is where it failed to follow its own teachings. those failings caused the downfall not just of the group, which had to end some day, but in the end hurt the lives of those that believed but didnt see what was going on around them. they stayed true, and as a result were handicapped somewhat. i dont feel sorry for anyone. we all made choices, so if someone chose to stay they in the end did so of their own free will. but when it comes to looking at the person who would have been telling them to stay, telling them it makes them stronger, i see the lie in that. it caused me to lose respect for those people. anyone who discouraged someone being independant. even if its going to be a bad choice to do something..its still their choice. when you go into the seed they tell you its too help you stnd on your own, but then they didnt really want this.
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Of course they didn't want it my man. Any cult needs underlings to do the dirty work and to prop up the head egos in charge. Without the slaves at the bottom, what do they have?
This is why when I was in they really didn't care much once you graduated unless you made the effort to stick around. Why? Because fresh bodies were coming in daily. Later on, when enrollement was trickling in, you poor people were conned into sticking around indefinitely so those in charge would have people to focus their egos for them and to keep the cult perpetuating.
Sad, but true.
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Quote(?if the seed really had let people be honest about this stuff, maybe more people would have talked about it and actually become more secure and stable.
Hey Anon,
I could not agree with you more and the question you pose is a difficult one to answer. I respect your post and your opinion because the way you post I can tell you were there to the bitter end and your experience is what I can relate to the most. You post from your heart.
Quote: (if the seed really had let people be honest about this stuff, maybe more people would have talked about it and actually become more secure and stable).
I don?t think this would have been possible because control was paramount and this would have put into question the existing power structure. When I say control I do not always see this control in a negative light for example, when I first walked into the Seed, I needed to learn a new way of thinking so that I could regain control of my life. In my mind I had no problem with relinquishing control so that I may learn and get my life back on track. At this point to have questioned the existing and established power structure would have been wrong and even more importantly it would have been very detrimental to what I was trying to do. I had to put aside my false pride and ego and realize I at this time needed strong parameters and guidance and that is just the sad truth. I can only imagine what kind of stupidity I would come up with if I would have been allowed more freedom at this time.
The other side of the coin was how the Seed still did not allow people to take full control of their own lives after they were back on track We were filled with bull-shit reasons of the importance of edification and hierarchy and why we should not have full control of our lives(This was not said but only implied). The biggest thing that used to bother me was how people used to always profess that only through Art?s wisdom and guidance could we fully be well adjusted and capable of living our lives in a correct manor. I will admit during this time I knew something was not right about this philosophy however, my emotional ties clouded my judgment confusing the issue and creating at the time a great internal conflict. In retrospect and with much soul searching I have found this, the biggest flaw and the crack in the foundation which eventually led to the collapse of the Seed. The underlying currents of years of pent up frustrations and unspoken feelings and desires that went unanswered for so long. I only recognized this because this was the internal conflict I had with in me and I am not that different from everyone else.
You are so right how difficult it was to regain the control of one?s life after being controlled for so many years. I thank God that I walked away when I did because at this point I declared myself free and did not have to stick around for so long to wake up feeling betrayed and directionless. Wondering what happened to all this time. I will still admit I can still be haunted by the old taboos that were ingrained into me in what would constitute proper behavior of a Seed graduate for both the right and the wrong reasons.
When I found this site and began to read all the posts I began to question my experience at the Seed in a whole new light and began to think where I stand in all of this. Many times I looked at this as a big unnecessary waste of my time but I find myself strangely drawn to read up everyday the new posts.
For all the good and the bad I took from the Seed I still remember above all the friendships and the valuable lessons I learned and obtained during this important time in my life. And because of this I can make my own informed decisions and freely state with confidence my opinions. I don?t want to forget the struggle that has given me this clarity along with the place it all began.
I am racking my mind trying to figure out who you are.
[ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-10-04 15:01 ][ This Message was edited by: jgar on 2005-10-04 15:04 ]
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Anon above and Jgar:
You guys or gals have very clearly put that experience into terms that make sense. The seed I was in was different in someways, but I suppose to over-arching effect was the same - even despite the time difference.
I sincerely thank you for your informative posts.
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That was me above - I forgot to log in.
Again, thank you.
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You guys or gals have very clearly put that experience into terms that make sense. The seed I was in was different in someways, but I suppose to over-arching effect was the same - even despite the time difference.
I sincerely thank you for your informative posts.
Amen to that, my overwhelming reflections, thoughts and feelings are of all the people that I met, learned from, laughed (& cryed) with, got to know and regret never knowing. The Seed made such a difference in my life, and yes I was the correct little soldier for many years after I left, but even after years of further research I came back to many of the truths (about myself, nobody else) that I learned at the Seed 32 years ago. (Still) Love you guys!
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To Chris and Stripe,
Thank you for your kind words and although we went to the Seed at different times we still share a common brotherhood and walk on the same ground.
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Corky as soon as i register i will PM you. i still need a name.
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Who is Corky?
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jgar.
a page or two back he identifies himself as such
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Sure thing Anon,
Please feel free to IM me or E-mail me [email protected]
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The reason I stayed away were pretty simple, although I hid them from myself at the time--my family needs me, I am in a play etc.
In truth I stayed away because anytime I was seen was a time I could be determined to be fucked up. Any time I was seen was a time I was in danger of being started over. I don't think I took a full breathe till the program closed down and headed back to Florida.
Oh yeah, and I always hated it there too.
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In 1973 after I graduated I didn't stay away. Sure I quit going to the old timer meetings, because I was finding my self. I hung around with a lot of old timers, especially at the guy's house in St. Pete. I use to go to many gatherings that were held often at the Per....'s home in Tarpon Springs. That is where I met my husband. He was playing "Dust in the wind" on his guitar on the steps of the house, and I knew we were going to be married. I lived with Robin and some other girls in our own apt. A lot of us would go to the Collisium to ballroom dance. We had a great time there. We were the first couple to marry and have a child in 1976. A lot of seed kids went their own way, yet some of us still stayed in touch. Now with this forum, I have been able to be in contact with some of my friends whom I didn't know where they went. So again, I wouldn't say I stayed away. Maybe from the building, but not the friends I made and loved very dearly.
Julie
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"In 1973 after I graduated I didn't stay away. I hung around with a lot of old timers"
Jules was one of the Oltimers I used to run around with, for me it was not so much of "staying away" as it was kind of drifting away. The Seed was the focal point and there really was not a whole lot of thought to any sort of follow-up after you gradutated, I looked at this as one of the major areas that the Seed could have done something better, so for whatever reason, people changed, groups fractured and people sometimes moved away, got married, you lost touch and life went on and then Poof, the Seed closed and if you were lucky enough to keep a few close friends you were doing better than most. I can remember so many times wondering "what happened to this person or that person". I am grateful to be able to re-connect again to several fellow Seedlings that I knew then and have gotten a chance to know again, thanks Greg & Ginger!
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Well, they worked on that aspect of it in Straight and WWASP and CEDU are doing the same thing. Trust me, buddy, you did NOT get the shitty end of that stick!
To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
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I stayed away because the Seed sucked.
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On 2005-10-27 21:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I stayed away because the Seed sucked. "
That's funny. Thanks for making me laugh out loud. Really. :lol: