Fornits
General Interest => Tacitus' Realm => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 15, 2008, 06:20:33 PM
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he's ahead in 10 out of 10 polls conducted by the major networks and more reliable sociological org.s.
W. has done fucked it up so bad that people are willing to put a half black guy with a Muslim sounding name (and dad?) into office. That’s W.’s legacy, right there.
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he's ahead in 10 out of 10 polls conducted by the major networks and more reliable sociological org.s.
W. has done fucked it up so bad that people are willing to put a half black guy with a Muslim sounding name (and dad?) into office. That’s W.’s legacy, right there.
BETTER THAN YOUR LEGACY. YOU'RE A CUNT.
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BETTER THAN YOUR LEGACY. YOU'RE A CUNT.
:D :o :jerry:
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BETTER THAN YOUR LEGACY. YOU'RE A CUNT.
:D :o :jerry:
more like "Boring. Boring"
This discussion forum has run out of air, & only mouth breathers are left to verbally fart in our general direction. Oy.
Watch the debates. And vote for the lesser evil.
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This discussion forum has run out of air, & only mouth breathers are left
You forgot complainers.
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This discussion forum has run out of air, & only mouth breathers are left
You forgot complainers.
So, who does everyone think won?
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I doesnt matter,McCain is a watered down W. Obama is a goddamn snake(my apologies to all snakes every where).
Grab your ancles,motherfuckers. ::evil::
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I doesnt matter,McCain is a watered down W. Obama is a goddamn snake(my apologies to all snakes every where).
Grab your ancles,motherfuckers. ::evil::
Why don't you like Obama?
What's wrong with him, in specific. Fornit's Resident Genius (the guy who warned us the markets and banks would wipe majorly in a year)has said that Obama is good to go.
Our oracle has spoken. Whist doth thou defy the master?
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One of two reasons or a combination thereof. They're afraid of the big, scary black man or they're religious nuts that are afraid Obama will force all women to have abortions and then he'll eat their babies.
Oh, and he's a secret muslin. Didn't you hear?
Yes, these tards really are going around saying he's a musliN.
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I doesnt matter,McCain is a watered down W. Obama is a goddamn snake(my apologies to all snakes every where).
Grab your ancles,motherfuckers. ::evil::
Why don't you like Obama?
What's wrong with him, in specific. Fornit's Resident Genius (the guy who warned us the markets and banks would wipe majorly in a year)has said that Obama is good to go.
Our oracle has spoken. Whist doth thou defy the master?
One of two reasons or a combination thereof. They're afraid of the big, scary black man or they're religious nuts that are afraid Obama will force all women to have abortions and then he'll eat their babies.
Oh, and he's a secret muslin. Didn't you hear?
Don't blame the haters for their blindness. We've been drowning deeper into darkness for so long most people don't know which way is up anymore.
Yes, these tards really are going around saying he's a musliN.
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Don't blame the haters for their blindness. We've been drowning in the dark so long most people don't know which way is up anymore.
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Fornit's Resident Genius (the guy who warned us the markets and banks would wipe majorly in a year)has said that Obama is good to go.
Ah...but Fornits has many resident geniuses. Surfer Mouse also posted to that effect (re. the economy meltdown) on the Hyde forum in July, 2007. See 'Reckoning' begins for prophet of doom (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=20659&p=274006#p274006).
My take on the election is that it was pretty much ordained (for Obama) before the ruckus and showdown even began. "The Bankers" of the world want Obama to win. Given the state the economy is in right now, not to mention current international opinion of the United States government, they need someone to be President who can clean up the mess enough so that they can come back and continue ripping everybody off again.
When McCain "picked" Sarah Palin as a running mate, my first thought was that the Republicans were going to pull a fast one at the last minute and substitute someone else who was the real candidate all along. But now I think Palin was picked because they want Obama to win.
If by fluke he loses, they'll have two critters in place that can be directed as need be.
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Ursus,
That is a great reply. When you live in a red state, like me, you sit around and make anit-Palin shirts for fun not profit. Sad but true. I can only tell you, I don't have an accent like Bush, and Bush might have an accent like Bush. He is as Yankee as they come. I am the real deal (Houstonian). Go figure that out. I vote Blue, he votes Red, or can he read to vote red. Now i am confused.
iamartsy
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Ursus,
That is a great reply. When you live in a red state, like me, you sit around and make anit-Palin shirts for fun not profit. Sad but true. I can only tell you, I don't have an accent like Bush, and Bush might have an accent like Bush. He is as Yankee as they come. I am the real deal (Houstonian). Go figure that out. I vote Blue, he votes Red, or can he read to vote red. Now i am confused.
iamartsy
Yea. He's a yankee. His family's old Connecticut $. He's basically royalty: his family has been the govt. for generations, passed rulings that quadrupled their fortunes and land-holdings, dipped liberally into state coffers, and continue their dynastic reign through-out the country through various offspring.
Yet, he passes himself off as a folksy, Texan, regular guy. Regular guys don't get to ditch the draft, ditch reporting for duty even for the N.G, be admitted to Yale as a lagacy despite horrible grades, and have their DUI's, cocaine pocessions, and assault charges dismissed and records erased.
If you notice, his "accent" fades in and out. And his southern impression is BAD. He sounds more like he has a speech impediment than accent.
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Why don't you like Obama?
He's a socialist, just like Hill-dawg.
Why don't you like McCain?
Same reasons I don't like most Republicans these days.
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Why don't you like Obama?
He's a socialist, just like Hill-dawg.
Why don't you like McCain?
Same reasons I don't like most Republicans these days.
Where u from? if u don't mind me askin. I wonder if your predilictions might be regionality based.
I'm not sure why you're anti-socialist. It's the best form of govt today. And America's already socialist besides. There are few places that are not socialist to some degree, and those are not placed you'd want to live.
Egyptm, for ex.
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I'm not sure why you're anti-socialist. It's the best form of govt today. And America's already socialist besides. There are few places that are not socialist to some degree, and those are not placed you'd want to live.
Free enterprise is the only way; FUCK socialism.
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:hug: anonerite !
Thank you for noticing! I thought I was all alone in it.
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Thank you for noticing! I thought I was all alone in it.
:D
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I'm not sure why you're anti-socialist. It's the best form of govt today. And America's already socialist besides. There are few places that are not socialist to some degree, and those are not placed you'd want to live.
Free enterprise is the only way; FUCK socialism.
In an ideal society, there's a place for both. You can kill a people's spirit if you take away outlets for personal expression and reward for personal initiative. On the other hand, a society is more stable and psychologically healthy if there are certain basic needs that are ensured for all.
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If you can do this without infringing upon the rights of others, then great.
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I dont want guns in private ownership cause you crackers are too godam stupid to cuntrol yuor on destany,and beside you might pop a cap in my black ass,an mc cain is w an hiillry clit one is my ho,an tipper gore likes my cock ....aan aint no global warming an an an my plan is betta then that crackers,the whole hood gonna vote fo me the whole hood,cause theys stupid,and ise blackedy black black,and stupid hausfrau too,an alla dem fear farmers :moon:
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I dont want guns in private ownership cause you crackers are too godam stupid to cuntrol yuor on destany,and beside you might pop a cap in my black ass,an mc cain is w an hiillry clit one is my ho,an tipper gore likes my cock ....aan aint no global warming an an an my plan is betta then that crackers,the whole hood gonna vote fo me the whole hood,cause theys stupid,and ise blackedy black black,and stupid hausfrau too,an alla dem fear farmers :moon:
Right on, brothah! O0 :D :rasta:
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A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have.
-Thomas Jefferson
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
-Winston Churchill
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America, like Laura Bush, wants and needs a strong Black man to compensate for the failures of Dubya Bush. A proud Nubian brother with the width and measure of manhood to reveal Dubya's feeble inadequacy. A Righteous Brother and Teacher who can widen and hit depths Dubya never knew existed. An African King who will satisfy the needs that Dubya Bush's small means and fumbling idiocy left unfulfilled for so long. An Ebony Prophet who is selfless enough to give it his all tirelessly and satiate the desires of others before his own. A welcome change after Dubya Bush's selfish and impotent nature rendered frigid what once burned with passion.
America yearns to be controlled by a powerful Black Man with Soul who knows how to deliver the goods and fill the hole left by Dubya.
Vote to end America's repression, to relight the country's passion, and to get that deep down satisfaction. Once you vote Black, you don't go back. Vote Obama!
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One of two reasons or a combination thereof. They're afraid of the big, scary black man or they're religious nuts that are afraid Obama will force all women to have abortions and then he'll eat their babies.
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Or they are afraid of communism and socailism of which Obama is certainly champion, and which Americans should be afraid of and never let their guard down.
Oh, and he's a secret muslin. Didn't you hear?
Yes, these tards really are going around saying he's a musliN.
Honetsly, while I didn t think so before, the more that I look aroundm, I think it is very possible that he is a "secret muslim" or at the very least a muslim sympathist.
Paul
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One of two reasons or a combination thereof. They're afraid of the big, scary black man or they're religious nuts that are afraid Obama will force all women to have abortions and then he'll eat their babies.
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Or they are afraid of communism and socailism of which Obama is certainly champion, and which Americans should be afraid of and never let their guard down.
this is a pretty good troll, I give you that. Try channeling less McCarthy next time.
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One of two reasons or a combination thereof. They're afraid of the big, scary black man or they're religious nuts that are afraid Obama will force all women to have abortions and then he'll eat their babies.
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Or they are afraid of communism and socailism of which Obama is certainly champion, and which Americans should be afraid of and never let their guard down.
this is a pretty good troll, I give you that. Try channeling less McCarthy next time.
LMAO! McCarthy was a maniac. However, Obama is all the same a socailist. Perhaps, you agree with socailism. I do not. and I do believe that it should be feared, and looked out for, especailly in a time when so many people are unhappy with their government, and will overlook certain qualities in a candidtae in their hopes for change..
Paul
PS Troll?
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I'm not a socialist, but anything is better than Palin as president (not that obama is a socialist). Ok. Anything.
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Communism was born from the idea that as capitalism grew it would continually take the means of production out of the hands of the proletariat (lower class) as factories etc. took over for for the individual producers. It suggested that eventually capitalism would grow such a huge gap between the rich and poor that the lower class would revolt and regain control over their ability to own the means of production, resulting in Communism. Communist proponents were mistaken in not anticipating the lengths to which capitalism could grow as invention and innovation created a progressively larger working class. Socialism made the mistake of claiming government could predict where capitalism would go and make regulation based on those predictions. Where is the innovation now? Our current situation proves that capitalism needs to be regulated. Growth hit the ceiling and has resulted to an immoral credit industry and selling loans to the middle and lower class who could not afford them, and they knew it of course. Even the very wealthy know that an unchecked capitalist system will fail, but by law business must take every action to be the most profitable for their shareholders. That is why we are seeing the largest corporations growing to such lengths that they collapse and have to be bailed out in order for people to keep their jobs.The idea that Barrack is going to turn the country socialist is absurd, it is just time to start implementing policies that will help capitalism survive. Anyone who is scared of Barrack because of Socialism is buying into a scare tactic. The truth is that things are not just black and white, there is balance. Capitalism is a self regulating system and it is telling us we need oversight before it implodes.
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Look everyone, Dewey Beats Truman!!
:soapbox:
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The idea that Barrack is going to turn the country socialist is absurd, it is just time to start implementing policies that will help capitalism survive..
Capitalism will survive regardless. It is a natural order of things. It is government intervention, and yes the mistakes of certain corporations/businesses that cause problems. Although it has been explained to me a few times by a few people why it was so necessary, I don t think the companies should have been bailed out in the first place.
Anyone who is scared of Barrack because of Socialism is buying into a scare tactic...
I have followed all the debates, and did my own research. I have come up with my own idea that Barack leans dangerously close towards communism/socailism. Noone has scared me except Barack, his policies, and his history
The truth is that things are not just black and white, there is balance. Capitalism is a self regulating system and it is telling us we need oversight before it implodes.
Is it a self-regulating system or not? You can t have it both ways.
Paul
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http://www.electoral-vote.com (http://www.electoral-vote.com)
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Why don't you like Obama?
He's a socialist...
Maybe so, but what we really need are social-anarchists!
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Maybe so, but what we really need are social-anarchists!
Aye, the Black FlaG of AnaRcHy!!
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Aye!... :poison: :peace: :poison:
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Only I don't want to be misrepresented here, I mean it. Fuck all authority. It is inherently false.
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Obama spends his day before inauguration helping to paint some walls inside a home for struggling teens in Washington DC. Obama wants to let everyone know there will be no slackers on his watch. Everyone needs to chip in and work together. Notice all the windows have bars on them.
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It follows with his theme that we have become a country of slackers and very few people take accountability for their own lives. A good place to start are with the youth of this country who have been notorious for not taking accountability for their own actions/lives. They tend to blame their parents and authority figures for anything and everything bad that bestows them. Look around this web site, for example, and many others and you will see very little accountability for where they are today in their lives. Most blame their families or staff at school. Very few talk about how their actions helped to get them where they are today. Visiting a home for struggling teens is a good place to voice this message and help to get kids back in control of their lives and responsible for the consequences.
KathyS
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It follows with his theme that we have become a country of slackers and very few people take accountability for their own lives. A good place to start are with the youth of this country who have been notorious for not taking accountability for their own actions/lives. They tend to blame their parents and authority figures for anything and everything bad that bestows them. Look around this web site, for example, and many others and you will see very little accountability for where they are today in their lives. Most blame their families or staff at school. Very few talk about how their actions helped to get them where they are today. Visiting a home for struggling teens is a good place to voice this message and help to get kids back in control of their lives and responsible for the consequences.
KathyS
Stick around then. You might change your mind. I agree that the government should not be a nanny state. I tend to believe that disreputable schools and the corrupt educational consultants who promote them are better held accountable by the public. What your doing is blaming the victim. In your mind, none of us here were ever abused in programs and we're 100% responsible for where we are in live today (regardless of how well we are doing). This is an absolutist point of view that's not based in reality. If I punch you, are you responsible if you bleed? People are neither powerless nor all powerful over their lives. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
If you'd like to see some of my work, check out http://www.michaelcrawfordportfolio.com/ (http://www.michaelcrawfordportfolio.com/) . Download my resume if you feel like it. As you can see, i'm no failure, and neither are many (if not post) on this site. Many of us have succeeded in spite of the dire "dead in sane in jail" predictions of programs.
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It follows with his theme that we have become a country of slackers and very few people take accountability for their own lives. A good place to start are with the youth of this country who have been notorious for not taking accountability for their own actions/lives. They tend to blame their parents and authority figures for anything and everything bad that bestows them. Look around this web site, for example, and many others and you will see very little accountability for where they are today in their lives. Most blame their families or staff at school. Very few talk about how their actions helped to get them where they are today. Visiting a home for struggling teens is a good place to voice this message and help to get kids back in control of their lives and responsible for the consequences.
KathyS
Stick around then. You might change your mind. I agree that the government should not be a nanny state. I tend to believe that disreputable schools and the corrupt educational consultants who promote them are better held accountable by the public. What your doing is blaming the victim. In your mind, none of us here were ever abused in programs and we're 100% responsible for where we are in live today (regardless of how well we are doing). This is an absolutist point of view that's not based in reality. If I punch you, are you responsible if you bleed? People are neither powerless nor all powerful over their lives. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
If you'd like to see some of my work, check out http://www.michaelcrawfordportfolio.com/ (http://www.michaelcrawfordportfolio.com/) . Download my resume if you feel like it. As you can see, i'm no failure, and neither are many (if not post) on this site. Many of us have succeeded in spite of the dire "dead in sane in jail" predictions of programs.
I am not calling everyone a loser. Just that all the stories lack accountability. I would think at some point, while telling everyone I pass that “Psy” punched me in the face and I feel abused, some one would ask why. Does it matter that the reason you punched me was because I infected you with “Hepc” because I was pissed at you or exposed your best friend or family to used syringes which I left around the house for the kids to play with. Did I deserve to be punched? Maybe/maybe not. No one seems to ever mention why they were sent to a program. Does it matter?
Nice website, Michael.
I like the textures you placed on the gargoyle. Did you extrude the base mesh using Maya?
It looks like you used the “horizontally tileable stone texture” from your texture section (bottom one) or did were these from stock samples? Either way it came out beautifully. The topological space is also impressive. I like that piece.
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I am not calling everyone a loser. Just that all the stories lack accountability. I would think at some point, while telling everyone I pass that “Psy” punched me in the face and I feel abused, some one would ask why. Does it matter that the reason you punched me was because I infected you with “Hepc” because I was pissed at you or exposed your best friend or family to used syringes which I left around the house for the kids to play with. Did I deserve to be punched? Maybe/maybe not. No one seems to ever mention why they were sent to a program. Does it matter?
Well there you have a point. But what If I punched you for no good reason at all? Just because I felt like it. Such things do happen. And similarly, kids do get sent to program for fallacious reasons. There is no due process, unfortunately, and most programs are more than willing to accept a kid for reasons like "I think my son is gay" with no questions asked. Similarly, many frightened parents are likely to exaggerate the problems in their teens as worse than they are based on slanted "tests" from schools and referral agencies. The fact of the matter is it's natural for teens to rebel as they grow up. It's natural for them to scare the crap out of their parents, and very few of those kids develop probems later in life (http://http://www.peele.net/lib/panic.html), even the ones who not just use, but abuse drugs.
Besides. Even if there was due process, does the treatment work, and even if it works, are the means justified (do the ends justify the means)? WWASP's facility called "High Impact" (http://http://www.wwaspsinfo.net/highimpact.html) in Mexico used to tie kids down in dog cages (there are photos of this and there was an inside edition exposé on it). Do those means justify the ends, even if they do produce results? And how long will those results, based on fear and coercion last? Even "soft" coercion where no physical "abuse" is used but psychological and verbal abuse is plentiful... how long to the results of that treatment last? There have never been any independent studies showing the efficacy of these facilities. It's all based on anecdotal evidence and "studies" (marketing) performed by the facilities themselves claiming absurd success rates as high as 97%.
Another thing to think about. If I did indeed punch you for no reason at all, would that give you the right to punch me back?
Nice website, Michael.
I like the textures you placed on the gargoyle. Did you extrude the base mesh using Maya?
I created the base mesh in Blender 3d (I use Maya too, but tend to prefer blender). It's poly by poly modeling.
It looks like you used the “horizontally tileable stone texture” from your texture section (bottom one) or did were these from stock samples?
I used one of my images. I can't remember which one. It's not tileable at all actually (just high frequency enough not to be able to notice the seams, which are hidden anyway).
Either way it came out beautifully. The topological space is also impressive. I like that piece.
Thanks.
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Well there you have a point. But what If I punched you for no good reason at all? Just because I felt like it. Such things do happen. And similarly, kids do get sent to program for fallacious reasons.
That is not right.
There is no due process, unfortunately, and most programs are more than willing to accept a kid for reasons like "I think my son is gay" with no questions asked. Similarly, many frightened parents are likely to exaggerate the problems in their teens as worse than they are based on slanted "tests" from schools and referral agencies.
There are screening processes which prevent such things from happening. Families are encouraged to seek local services and or have their child evaluated prior to seeking a boarding school.
The fact of the matter is it's natural for teens to rebel as they grow up. It's natural for them to scare the crap out of their parents, and very few of those kids develop probems later in life, even the ones who not just use, but abuse drugs.
Absolutely
Besides. Even if there was due process, does the treatment work, and even if it works, are the means justified (do the ends justify the means)?
The process does work if the right program is matched with the right child.
WWASP's facility called "High Impact" in Mexico used to tie kids down in dog cages (there are photos of this and there was an inside edition exposé on it). Do those means justify the ends, even if they do produce results? And how long will those results, based on fear and coercion last? Even "soft" coercion where no physical "abuse" is used but psychological and verbal abuse is plentiful... how long to the results of that treatment last?
I am aware of this and it is appalling. No one should be treated that way. I am glad that has stopped.
There have never been any independent studies showing the efficacy of these facilities. It's all based on anecdotal evidence and "studies" (marketing) performed by the facilities themselves claiming absurd success rates as high as 97%.
I have seen some small sample size and short term studies which have been impressive. I would like to see more studies done especially on the outcome of time vs effectiveness because I believe that no matter how successful or effect a program is there comes a point where being institutionalized takes over as a negative effect and cancels out any good that has been done. Children cannot be away from home for long periods of time and still maintain a healthy family bond and attachement.
Another thing to think about. If I did indeed punch you for no reason at all, would that give you the right to punch me back?
Well, that is tough for me to answer. I don’t believe in hitting at all because I have never been able to define acceptable limits. It is so individual. I have a son who if I just raised my voice at him he would be greatly affected, and another son who would require a great deal of violence (via spanking) to be effected the same way. So I think if you hit me I would have the right to respond. Whether it be verbally or physically. Since I don’t believe in physical violence I would respond with Verbally or legally if it continued.
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There are screening processes which prevent such things from happening. Families are encouraged to seek local services and or have their child evaluated prior to seeking a boarding school.
Maybe by some referral services / ed-cons / programs, but certainly not all. Who are parents to trust? How does a parent tell the difference? Is it safe to choose at all with such danger?
Besides. Even if there was due process, does the treatment work, and even if it works, are the means justified (do the ends justify the means)?
The process does work if the right program is matched with the right child.[/quote]
I am not against treatment if it is consented to. I do, however, feel that any forced treatment is destined to failure. This is evident in studies of court ordered treatment vs no treatment in a control group (Brandsma, et al). Do you believe a child should have a choice in deciding whether to go to a program. Do you agree with the practice of censoring communication (even for a short period, or "level one")?
I have seen some small sample size and short term studies which have been impressive. I would like to see more studies done especially on the outcome of time vs effectiveness because I believe that no matter how successful or effect a program is there comes a point where being institutionalized takes over as a negative effect and cancels out any good that has been done.
Absolutely. Children can take on the identity of "troubled" and regardless of whether or not they had a problem before, they will after that. In many cases, as i've said, kids grow out of their troublesome behavior. Often it's just a case of finding healthy outlets for the desire to be independent (to separate from parents).
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Maybe by some referral services / ed-cons / programs, but certainly not all. Who are parents to trust? How does a parent tell the difference? Is it safe to choose at all with such danger?
Parents really have to do some homework,work with local services. There are some who trust the first person to come along and that is dangerous.
I am not against treatment if it is consented to. I do, however, feel that any forced treatment is destined to failure. This is evident in studies of court ordered treatment vs no treatment in a control group (Brandsma, et al). Do you believe a child should have a choice in deciding whether to go to a program. Do you agree with the practice of censoring communication (even for a short period, or "level one")?
The child should be part of the process as much as possible, but the parents have the legal and moral duty to do what is best for their children.
I feel that communication should be limited, but there should be access for emergencies.
Absolutely. Children can take on the identity of "troubled" and regardless of whether or not they had a problem before, they will after that. In many cases, as i've said, kids grow out of their troublesome behavior. Often it's just a case of finding healthy outlets for the desire to be independent (to separate from parents).
That’s why it is very important to access the child before he/she is accepted into aprogram. There is no sense in wasting a childs time and parents money if there is no real need.
It has been Good talking with you, Michael, I have to run,talk to you later. Didnt expect this conversation on fornits,no offense.
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Parents really have to do some homework,work with local services. There are some who trust the first person to come along and that is dangerous.
Is it any less dangerous to trust the second or third? How is a parent supposed to know if an educational consultant is taking kickbacks for placements?
The child should be part of the process as much as possible, but the parents have the legal and moral duty to do what is best for their children.
Does that include forced treatment? Even if statistically it's likely to do more harm than good? What about working with the child to choose a therapist who can figure out what is causing the rebellious behavior and/or work to calm the fears of the parents?
Does forcing another person to accept they have a problem work in the long run? Can it be misused? In my experiences, many programs only let a child progress if they confess to problems (often ones they don't' actually have.. these confessions are then used to justify more time in treatment to the parents). Another problem with that is that kids without problems can end up actually believing they do (consider the experiments of Solomon Asch in this regard... and multiply that by 24/7 and a lot more than just social pressure).
I feel that communication should be limited, but there should be access for emergencies.
And what is the possible benefit of that, compared to the dangers? Abusive programs rely on the practice of restricting communication. Considering history and what has happened in the past, is there really anything at all that can justify interfering with complete unrestricted contact with parents?
That’s why it is very important to access the child before he/she is accepted into aprogram.
But who does that assessment process? Is it a medical professional? One qualified to make diagnoses? A second opinion?
There is no sense in wasting a childs time and parents money if there is no real need.
But what constitutes "real need". It's all fairly subjective and very relative to how scared the parents are. This is why there needs to be an objective viewpoint determining whether or not a child really has a problem and whether the best course of action is a form of treatment (and objective does not mean paid for by the program/referral service which has a vested interest in slanting the diagnosis one way).
In any case. I'm personally against any forced treatment, but I don't expect parents to accept that. I do, however, like to make the point that forced treatment is unlikely to work. If a person has a problem, they have to admit it. Nobody can do it for them. A problem will either get better spontaniously (most likely) or it will get worse until a person hits "bottom". Treatment of any sort is unlikely to help in the latter case and it's likely to hurt in the former, as a child with a fragile ego takes on the identity of an "addict" with a "progressive disease" over which he is "powerless". Interfering with that natural course is often more dangerous than the substances themselves. Taking away a person's freedom and, indeed free will, is a serious matter, often with lifelong consequences.
It has been Good talking with you, Michael, I have to run,talk to you later. Didnt expect this conversation on fornits,no offense.
None taken. I try to be diplomatic, even with those I disagree with. Good talking to you too.
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I just got back from a dinner party and maybe wrote a little too much here, but I enjoyed responding, sorry for the length
Is it any less dangerous to trust the second or third? How is a parent supposed to know if an educational consultant is taking kickbacks for placements?
Most people who are ready to drop $6,000 a month know that no one works for free and if the Educational consultant isn’t asking them for money then they know they get paid for each placement. Based on this they should be working with several consultants and also working with a local therapist to help guide them.
Does that include forced treatment?
Forced treatment isn’t necessarily bad in every case. The child may be reluctant to go at first but may start to see that things are better after a week or month.
Even if statistically it's likely to do more harm than good?
If it were more likely that the child would fail than I would never approve the placement.
What about working with the child to choose a therapist who can figure out what is causing the rebellious behavior and/or work to calm the fears of the parents?
This is always the first option. The parents need to seek out an advocate for the child which is typically a child therapist. Many times the therapist sees issues at home being part of the childs problem and tries to get the family into counselling to see if there can be a solution on the local level.
Does forcing another person to accept they have a problem work in the long run?
No, I have never seen this to be successful. You cannot confront a young person and bully them into thinking they have a problem. The best way is to expose them to choices and show them a different path. Let them experience it by removing access to destructive habits.
Can it be misused? In my experiences, many programs only let a child progress if they confess to problems (often ones they don't' actually have.. these confessions are then used to justify more time in treatment to the parents).
I have found this is more a problem with lack of training in staff. The staff level people should not be working directly with the childrens issues, at all period, or giving advice on how to resolve problems. The children can work with staff within a group situation to discuss generic topics and how they feel within social situations and work on items which affect the kids within the dynamics of the schools day to day operations like class time, group,lunch,dinner times,social conflicts etc.
Another problem with that is that kids without problems can end up actually believing they do (consider the experiments of Solomon Asch in this regard... and multiply that by 24/7 and a lot more than just social pressure).
This should be resolved prior to acceptance. I do realize that there are kids that try to out do each other and fabricate stories just because they feel really stupid for being placed there for just smoking pot so they may say something that isn’t true just to fit in better.
And what is the possible benefit of that, compared to the dangers? Abusive programs rely on the practice of restricting communication. Considering history and what has happened in the past, is there really anything at all that can justify interfering with complete unrestricted contact with parents?
I definitely feel that restricted communication is justified in the majority of the kids who are placed. There are so many people who are ready to undermine the childs therapy, the uncle who has too many secrets and calls to remind the kid to remain silent about their relationship or else. The drug dealer or best friend who wants to call every day to give an update on what is happening, who is getting high with what and who is sleeping with his or her ex. The ex divorced parent who calls every day to express that the child doesn’t have to be there because their father/mother is an idiot, reminding the child that the other parent doesn’t really love them... how could a young person concentrate with all this going on, underminding their work?
But who does that assessment process? Is it a medical professional? One qualified to make diagnoses? A second opinion?
The assessment should be done by an independent. Most metropolitan areas have a hospital that can perform a 24 hour observation and assessment on a child.
But what constitutes "real need". It's all fairly subjective and very relative to how scared the parents are.
This is true, some parents are stressed out and will deliver their child anywhere,check in hand, if you could just give them a solution which will be successful and keep their child safe.
This is why there needs to be an objective viewpoint determining whether or not a child really has a problem and whether the best course of action is a form of treatment (and objective does not mean paid for by the program/referral service which has a vested interest in slanting the diagnosis one way).
Agreed, that is why I suggest a local hospital to perform a 24 hour observation and assessment alone with the childs therapist to collaborate.
In any case. I'm personally against any forced treatment, but I don't expect parents to accept that. I do, however, like to make the point that forced treatment is unlikely to work. If a person has a problem, they have to admit it. Nobody can do it for them. A problem will either get better spontaniously (most likely) or it will get worse until a person hits "bottom".
Forced is a gray area. What if a child doesn’t want to take swimming lessons but the parent insists (with the knowledge that if the child really throws a nuty they will be pulled) and after the child is actually physically picked up and placed in the water he sees it is not too bad, meets friends and enjoys the lessons in subsequent weeks. Would this be considered forced treatment? This happened to my oldest son at age 5 and after being picked up and carried into the water he enjoyed it. Was that 20 seconds abusive? Maybe, but I don’t consider it to be abuse personally.
The child may not like the program the first few days or weeks but may take to it over time and see the benefits
Treatment of any sort is unlikely to help in the latter case and it's likely to hurt in the former, as a child with a fragile ego takes on the identity of an "addict" with a "progressive disease" over which he is "powerless".
Interfering with that natural course is often more dangerous than the substances themselves. Taking away a person's freedom and, indeed free will, is a serious matter, often with lifelong consequences.
If a child is dabbling in drugs then he she is unlikely to be placed in a program. Most parents I have spoken to are at their wits end with children who are extremely destructive.
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Most people who are ready to drop $6,000 a month know that no one works for free and if the Educational consultant isn’t asking them for money then they know they get paid for each placement. Based on this they should be working with several consultants and also working with a local therapist to help guide them.
LOL. So buyer beware, right? I can empathize with that position but at the same time, right now it's absolute open season on parents. Maybe parents should put 2 and 2 together when ed-cons are charging little, but many don't in their rush and stress. Also. Consider Sue Scheff. She claims to just be a "parent helping parents" (to avoid a bad placement). That being said, until very very recently (after she was sued for her referrals to Focal Point) her website had no mention that she took kickbacks from schools. Indeed, as revealed in the WWASP vs PURE transcripts, there was a time where she was explictly lying to parents about this practice. Based on how she represents herself, it's fair to assume that most parents think that she's independantly wealthy and just operating her "free" referral business to avoid a repetition of her own bad experience.
But you sort of missed my point. Is there a way for a parent to know for sure that an educational consultant is not taking compensation for referrals?
Forced treatment isn’t necessarily bad in every case. The child may be reluctant to go at first but may start to see that things are better after a week or month.
I've never seen or head of a program where admitting a problem wasn't an absolute requirement for advancement in the program. With no due process and often no medical diagnosis and/or second opinion, it stands to reason that a good portion of kids confess (and actually believe) problems they don't actually have. I've seen it happen with my own eyes.
Does forcing another person to accept they have a problem work in the long run?
No, I have never seen this to be successful. You cannot confront a young person and bully them into thinking they have a problem.
Well. Just to be clear, you can do that. It just generally doesn't stick for long after graduating the program.
Can it be misused? In my experiences, many programs only let a child progress if they confess to problems (often ones they don't' actually have.. these confessions are then used to justify more time in treatment to the parents).
I have found this is more a problem with lack of training in staff. The staff level people should not be working directly with the childrens issues, at all period, or giving advice on how to resolve problems. The children can work with staff within a group situation to discuss generic topics and how they feel within social situations and work on items which affect the kids within the dynamics of the schools day to day operations like class time, group,lunch,dinner times,social conflicts etc.
That's the marketing, yes, but i've never actually see that truly happen. If you know of a program where this is actually practiced, by all means list it.
Another problem with that is that kids without problems can end up actually believing they do (consider the experiments of Solomon Asch in this regard... and multiply that by 24/7 and a lot more than just social pressure).
This should be resolved prior to acceptance. I do realize that there are kids that try to out do each other and fabricate stories just because they feel really stupid for being placed there for just smoking pot so they may say something that isn’t true just to fit in better.
But it's not just fabrication. There comes a point when you believe it (under pressure).
And what is the possible benefit of that, compared to the dangers? Abusive programs rely on the practice of restricting communication. Considering history and what has happened in the past, is there really anything at all that can justify interfering with complete unrestricted contact with parents?
I definitely feel that restricted communication is justified in the majority of the kids who are placed. There are so many people who are ready to undermine the childs therapy, the uncle who has too many secrets and calls to remind the kid to remain silent about their relationship or else. The drug dealer or best friend who wants to call every day to give an update on what is happening, who is getting high with what and who is sleeping with his or her ex. The ex divorced parent who calls every day to express that the child doesn’t have to be there because their father/mother is an idiot, reminding the child that the other parent doesn’t really love them... how could a young person concentrate with all this going on, underminding their work?
But I didn't say extended families (and certainly not drug dealers). I said "unrestricted contact with parents". Considering history and what has happened in the past, is there really anything at all that can justify interfering with that?
This is why there needs to be an objective viewpoint determining whether or not a child really has a problem and whether the best course of action is a form of treatment (and objective does not mean paid for by the program/referral service which has a vested interest in slanting the diagnosis one way).
Agreed, that is why I suggest a local hospital to perform a 24 hour observation and assessment alone with the childs therapist to collaborate.
Wow. You are the first educational consultant I have EVER heard suggest such a thing. EVER. I know a lot of parents who call up referral services with fake kids and frivolous issues and they have never heard such a thing. Forgive me if i'm skeptical.
Can you name me a program that doesn't admit kids for things like "ADD/ADHD" or "depression" or "disrespectful" and so on?
Forced is a gray area. What if a child doesn’t want to take swimming lessons but the parent insists (with the knowledge that if the child really throws a nuty they will be pulled) and after the child is actually physically picked up and placed in the water he sees it is not too bad, meets friends and enjoys the lessons in subsequent weeks. Would this be considered forced treatment? This happened to my oldest son at age 5 and after being picked up and carried into the water he enjoyed it. Was that 20 seconds abusive? Maybe, but I don’t consider it to be abuse personally.
The child may not like the program the first few days or weeks but may take to it over time and see the benefits
The problem there is that many programs operate more like thought reform (brainwashing) environments. Have you ever asked yourself how kids could come out of the most abusive programs exclaiming "the program saved my life!" and so forth? Anecdotal, short term, testimonials are not evidence of efficacy. They're evidence of how a person views the program. In that respect, it is nearly impossible to distinguish (without knowing the right questions) whether or not an experiences was truly helpful, or whether abuse has simply been reframed as "therapy". When Interviewing kids recently out of programs, I don't ask questions like "were you abused". I ask questions like "how did the staff help you to realize you had a problem" (and follow up for details). You'd often be shocked at what you hear.
If a child is dabbling in drugs then he she is unlikely to be placed in a program. Most parents I have spoken to are at their wits end with children who are extremely destructive.
And how many of those have had a medical opinion on the subject?
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I see here that Psy has been posing you questions, that may be in part his diplomacy or possibly just to identify your intentions, for which I must give him respect. But heres the thing, based on your answers it is clear that you are extremely misguided on your view of the programs. Psy may have interjected his experience from time to time but I feel it more necessary to point out from my experience as well as many others who were subjected to the WWASP system that MOST of what you believe about these programs is simply wrong. I dont mean that as an insult to your character nor your intelligence, because as we all know many parents turned ed-cons are successfully misguided by the programs. Heres my issue here, as a parent or an outside supporter (like an ed con) you have no REAL way to see for yourself if the programs A: Provide healthy and appropriate treatment for the numerous adolescent "problems" they claim to treat, B: Provide sufficient medical services, an Educational system that at least meets US standards, and an environment that is safe and meets US health and safety codes, C: Methods used in the program that provide for success after the program ie: If the program works and finally, D: Ethical child protective practices. In MOST cases, these fundamental requirements are NOT met, and any significant changes that comes out of a stay in a WWASP program is usually because the kid is there so long that they naturally mature. I'm telling you this out of first hand experience not only with the program but as well with keeping in contact with hundreds of people who went to the programs and how they, anywhere from 2 to 10 years later feel about their experience in the program. These are not all anti-program people either, most have never shown the slightest bit of interest in joining the fight against the programs however they have told me many many stories of how the program wronged them and their families and how they all believe it was a waste of time and money. Not to mention you are widely misinformed about the after effects of a program... I will get into that as I comment below.
For the most part all I say is, do some research yourself... do some surveying ... ask neutral people who went to programs more than 2 years ago how they feel about the program, and if they were satisfied. Talk to survivors about their experiences and talk to their parents about their satisfaction with how the program worked after their child came home. Its true that not all programs were like casa by the sea, High Impact and Tranquility Bay, but the fact that you are appalled by what you have heard about these programs yet you still refer to WWASP is very suspect to your judgment and only suggests that you are forfeiting your concious for the money that you receive from WWASP to fill up their programs. Not to mention that the ONLY difference between the US programs and the Foreign programs is that in the US they arent allowed to beat the children. That is the ONLY difference when the usual psychological abuse, force, fear, unqualified staff and a piss poor Med, Ed and program system are still employed at these programs. What most parents and Ed cons assume is that if they are charging so much money they MUST be a good school, but the problem is that these schools are completely un-regulated so no, they dont HAVE to do anything. Only thing they have to do is make it seem like they are doing something right by treating your kid so badly they act significantly grateful when they come home. As well, In the program they are threatened with punishment, isolation, loss of privledges and the time it takes to get home if they admit in their monitored phone calls or letters home anything bad about the program, it isnt until after they are 18 (and depending on if their parent is willing to listen and believe them) that they will tell you about how the program was not a healthy place to live. But in the time it takes them to deprogram, and realize what happened was actually psychological abuse the kid will probably have already returned back to drugs (or other unhealthy ways) and broken ties with their parents, or sometimes committed suicide. The cause of which is rarely realized by program parents to be because they did not receive proper treatment in the program at all, even though what happened to a kid in a program is usually main reason it happens in the first place! Most kids I knew in CBS had barely experimented with alcohol and 5-8 years after the program they have done every drug in the book. WHY? because the program didnt teach them ABOUT drugs, their effects and how they can ruin their life, the program simply made each girl believe they were an addict and if they didnt accept the program they were going to die. This is most likely the reason that most teens after graduating and given the time it takes to deprogram, realize they would rather live their life even into an early grave than to live their life in the fear and guilt that the program held over their head.
I think the fact that a program gives a teen time to separate themselves from the outside world and the people who were leading them into drugs and other temptations is a good thing, I think it gives the child time to make up their own mind about what they want for their life and I strongly believe that if a program were to operate a COMPLETELY different system it COULD be effective. Unfortunately, WWASP and many many other programs do not utilize a program that is either healthy, helpful nor ethically sound and the fact that you support these kinds of places only reflects badly upon you your judgment and your character.
Does that include forced treatment?
Forced treatment isn’t necessarily bad in every case. The child may be reluctant to go at first but may start to see that things are better after a week or month.
Forced "treatment" is different then paying to have your child incarcerated in a private prison. If a child is reluctant to treatment such as therapy, or extremely necessary drug treatment or family counseling I can understand a strong parenting hand in the matter. But when you are essentially taking their lives and future into your hands and making such a grossly misguided and completely unethical choice for them, I think they have the right to at least be able to tell you "No, this place is not for me". Things really don't get "better" in the program, no kid suddenly realizes that they deserved to be locked up and abused, that is simply the brainwashing, and the fear of being punished or singled out starting to kick in. You can believe the facade if you choose, but considering how unlikely that actuality is, I would be suspecious at that point.
Even if statistically it's likely to do more harm than good?
If it were more likely that the child would fail than I would never approve the placement.
So Kathy, How many paying parents have you had to tell... "Your son is simply being a normal rebellious teenager, smoking weed is not going to kill him, perhaps your abrasive parenting and gross overreaction is the case is what is causing your child to pull away from you"
I garrentee NONE. They are paying you to find a private prison and no matter what they say their child is doing or what problems they have you will find one that is willing to pay you a finders fee. The fact is that the programs as a whole do more harm than good to MOST children, that means normal rebellious kids, kids with mental disorders, kids with real addictions and kids with problems that the program only claims to address however DOES NOT. The only kids that do seem to be "helped" are those who were before experimenting with more drugs than a usual teenager and getting into more trouble, yet do not have a real addiction problem nor any mental disorders. There were only a few girls like this in my school, the rest (including me) were incorrectly placed by clueless Ed-con artists.
Does forcing another person to accept they have a problem work in the long run?
No, I have never seen this to be successful. You cannot confront a young person and bully them into thinking they have a problem. The best way is to expose them to choices and show them a different path. Let them experience it by removing access to destructive habits.
What your saying here is that you disagree with the ONLY form of "treatment" that exists in the program. In the program you were either diagnosed a drug addict or you hadn't tried drugs yet but your parents caught you before you became an addict. There was no drug education, there were no "choices to a different path" and the last thing they did was teach us WHY we should choose not to do drugs in the future. The reason I don't do drugs is because I learned, after doing drugs that it wasted my time and ability to succeed in life. All the program said was "stay away from non-working people" as if isolating myself would make the decision for me, No, people need to decide for themselves what they want for their life, that is the only way that any real changes come to light.
Can it be misused? In my experiences, many programs only let a child progress if they confess to problems (often ones they don't' actually have.. these confessions are then used to justify more time in treatment to the parents).
I have found this is more a problem with lack of training in staff.
Darling, in my school the only thing the staff was there for was to beat down the kids if they didnt follow directions. The program, the system that we learned was passed down through the previous generations of upper level girls which made this especially unhealthy, because it was a popularity game mixed with encouraged bullying and peer pressure. We called it "the game" once you learned how to play the game you got levels and finally got out, it wasnt about change, it wasnt about making different choices, it was about learning the jargon and saying what others wanted to hear so that you would be accepted into the group that would ALLOW you to go home.
Another problem with that is that kids without problems can end up actually believing they do (consider the experiments of Solomon Asch in this regard... and multiply that by 24/7 and a lot more than just social pressure).
This should be resolved prior to acceptance. I do realize that there are kids that try to out do each other and fabricate stories just because they feel really stupid for being placed there for just smoking pot so they may say something that isn’t true just to fit in better.
Thats a nice theory, lol and funny too because you admit that there are kids that are recommended to be incarcerated by Ed-con-artists simply because they smoke weed. But kids didnt make up stories because they felt stupid for being put in a program for nothing, kids made up stories because when they said things like "I smoked weed a few times" they would be attacked by the upperlevels and forced to confess more. This is ONLY because they needed to be able to tell the parents that their son or daughter deserved to be incarcerated and that if they didnt complete the program they would die. leading of course to that famous saying "the program saved my son/daughters life", which has been proven statistically (and by simple common sense) to be a completely UNTRUE statement.
Abusive programs rely on the practice of restricting communication. Considering history and what has happened in the past, is there really anything at all that can justify interfering with complete unrestricted contact with parents?
I definitely feel that restricted communication is justified in the majority of the kids who are placed. There are so many people who are ready to undermine the childs therapy, the uncle who has too many secrets and calls to remind the kid to remain silent about their relationship or else. The drug dealer or best friend who wants to call every day to give an update on what is happening, who is getting high with what and who is sleeping with his or her ex. The ex divorced parent who calls every day to express that the child doesn’t have to be there because their father/mother is an idiot, reminding the child that the other parent doesn’t really love them... how could a young person concentrate with all this going on, underminding their work?
False. Completely False. I can understand restricting letters or phone calls from friends but what Psy is referring to is that the contact with the parents is restricted and monitored and it shouldn't be. There is no reason for that besides the fact that they are making sure that the kid isnt telling the parents things they dont know about the program or telling them that they want to leave. On the same subject children NEED to be able to access child protective services and they are not allowed to do this. This is the biggest RED FLAG in a program, even the inmates in a maximum security prison are allowed their right to private counsel and these children should most definately be given the same rights. The fact that they dont allow this ONLY means that they have something to hide and that they are controlling and mistreating these kids and making them feel hopeless about it because there is no way that they can cry for help without receiving MORE abuse.
But who does that assessment process? Is it a medical professional? One qualified to make diagnoses? A second opinion?
The assessment should be done by an independent. Most metropolitan areas have a hospital that can perform a 24 hour observation and assessment on a child.
So, do you recommend any independent admissions agencies? any private doctors that could do that assessment? or do they not pay your kick back fees? DO you even recommend that parents seek them out on their own? I know for a fact that Ed-cons DO NOT because had I been seen by an independent doctor who was aware of the way the program I was supposed to go to operated they would have suggested I DID NOT go. Reason being is because I have ADD and Bipolar, futhermore I did not use drugs before the program, only smoked weed a few times and got drunk twice. The way that the rules at CBS were set up it was impossible for me to advance in the system and any educated person would be able to point that out. Unfortunately the woman who conned my mother was not educated and was most likely only making her recommendation based on the money she would get for my placement.
This is why there needs to be an objective viewpoint determining whether or not a child really has a problem and whether the best course of action is a form of treatment (and objective does not mean paid for by the program/referral service which has a vested interest in slanting the diagnosis one way).
Agreed, that is why I suggest a local hospital to perform a 24 hour observation and assessment alone with the childs therapist to collaborate.
Please make note of this program that is offered in a local hospital, because I am more than positive this doesnt exist. Unless you are talking about a mental hospital, in that case... You've got your head screwed on backwards.
Treatment of any sort is unlikely to help in the latter case and it's likely to hurt in the former, as a child with a fragile ego takes on the identity of an "addict" with a "progressive disease" over which he is "powerless".
Interfering with that natural course is often more dangerous than the substances themselves. Taking away a person's freedom and, indeed free will, is a serious matter, often with lifelong consequences.
If a child is dabbling in drugs then he she is unlikely to be placed in a program. Most parents I have spoken to are at their wits end with children who are extremely destructive.
Again, these kids are few and far between. Mostly the problem is the parents are freaking out and this is the only option they choose because these programs are the only places that will lock a teen up simply based on what their parents diagnose them as and without due process or consent of the child and their other family members, and usually that means their other parent as well. These programs act outside the law and violate every human right that a child has in America, and uses only the loophole of parental rights to be free to abolish the personal rights of the child. It is wrong, no matter how many kids graduate and seem "changed" for a matter of a few months, the process that the program uses is unethical and statistically is unsuccessful so I whole-heartedly believe that the ends NEVER justify the means when it comes to WWASP and many many other programs.
Im sorry to sound harsh here Kathy but It angers me how many people just dont get it, and refuse to see things from a different angle, try the angle of someone who experienced it first hand. You people blow us off all the time, you assume we are lying or exaggerating and put us down for our courage to speak out and save lives. I have very little respect or sympathy with those who choose to support WWASP, and my patience is thin because I have heard every programized cookie cutter argument a thousand times and they never really get any less ignorant. I wont go so far as to say YOU are them, but I will say there is so much that you don't know, or refuse to believe and your choice to support these programs enough to refer kids makes me question your ability to neutrally assess a situation and do whats truly "helpful" for a family. Personally, my opinion is that your paycheck means more to you than truly helping people.
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I just got back from a dinner party and maybe wrote a little too much here, but I enjoyed responding, sorry for the length
Is it any less dangerous to trust the second or third? How is a parent supposed to know if an educational consultant is taking kickbacks for placements?
Most people who are ready to drop $6,000 a month know that no one works for free and if the Educational consultant isn’t asking them for money then they know they get paid for each placement. Based on this they should be working with several consultants and also working with a local therapist to help guide them.
Great, so they can give even more money to people you are allied with. I was referred by a therapist to CEDU the most abusive program in the business after being diagnosed with an illness that probably doesn't exist: ODD.
And where is the accountability for you monsters who refer “normal” kids to abusive programs, that prevents you from doing it again? And you know residential treatment is only advised by the AMA when an individual is an immediate danger to themselves or others, and then only until the emergency passes.
Guess that’s something you forget to tell "parents,”eh?
You know the study where 12 "normal" Harvard students all checked themselves into a psychiatric hospital and EVERY ONE was given a diagnosis. You know 9xs out of 10 ANY kid taken to a therapist will be given a dx, especially when they come with copious complaints from the parents. You know all this, so your insinuation that therapist-use will safeguard against abduction and imprisonment for kids who are not seriously mentally ill is a lie, and you know it.
Does that include forced treatment?
Forced treatment isn’t necessarily bad in every case. The child may be reluctant to go at first but may start to see that things are better after a week or month.
Same thing happened to Elizabeth Smart. At first she had to literally be abducted from her bedroom to consent to entering treatment with the crazy homeless man! But in a month’s time, when the police tried to rescue her, she insisted she was the crazy homeless man’s wife and didn't want to leave! He had "saved" her from a life of sin! Amazing what you can make someone believe by isolating, torturing, and terrorizing them, child murderer!
Even if statistically it's likely to do more harm than good?
If it were more likely that the child would fail than I would never approve the placement.
Oops. Then why are you referring? There has never been one study produced to prove these places do anything than destroy people. And it has been proved that residential treatment (in real hospitals, not bemod torture centers) for longer than a short period of time causes damage to the patient. Considering the statistics how do you justify yourself. Oh yeah, you have no bankable skills and ya gotta make a living somehow!
how do you know if the kids you refer "fail"? Do you keep tabs on them and statistics? Are they autheticated in some way, or is there any proof you don't simply "make them up"? Where can I acess these figures? Oh, yeah. I can't! They don't exist!
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What about working with the child to choose a therapist who can figure out what is causing the rebellious behavior and/or work to calm the fears of the parents?
This is always the first option. The parents need to seek out an advocate for the child which is typically a child therapist. Many times the therapist sees issues at home being part of the childs problem and tries to get the family into counselling to see if there can be a solution on the local level.
"Try" counsling? Why should therapy for the abusive family only be the “first option”? Why should the failure of abusive or mentally ill parents to get their act together be something a kid is punished for in the form of imprisonment without due process in conditions that are illegal to force on criminals in maximum security prison?
Why doesn't the youth deserve due process, you grotesque, bigoted slaver? Why don’t humans under 18 only deserve HUMAN RIGHTS, instead of OPTIONS for their “owners.”?
Oh yeah, you couldn’t earn cash for bodies that way!
Does forcing another person to accept they have a problem work in the long run?
No, I have never seen this to be successful. You cannot confront a young person and bully them into thinking they have a problem. Let them experience it by removing access to destructive habits.
OK. You makes no sense. But, you seem to be advocating prison to safe-guarding kids from the possibility of "bad choices." But in prison, kids will continue to make choices, just ones in reaction to an extremely abusive, deprived and depraved environment.
You are also replacing the possibility of "bad choices" with the certainty of deep emotional, physiological, and psychological damage.
As much as you pretty up abduction and imprisonment with the terms "escort" and "intervention," those are horrific crimes of violence against vulnerable adolescents who will suffer major and, “statistically” speaking, permanent mental and quality of life damage because of them.
And we just established that kids have problems because their parents are abusive/mentally ill, remember? Therefore, it’s not the kids “choice's” that were the problem, their problem was the environment they were trapped in!
You are also assuming the kid was even making "bad" choices. Remember, crazy abusive parents? These people put kids in not because of their choices but because of their inability, disinterest with dealing with a normal, wonderful kid.
P.S. kids are supposed to make “bad choices,” you brute. That’s what being a human means. Being a parent means responding to those choices with tolerance, love, guidance, not disappearing them from the world so “bad choices” are not an option (while other people can see them, anyway)
I hope you are sued. I count the minutes, slave dealer.
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Oh my! There is a lot to respond to. I didn’t expect to take up this much space. I apologize for being so slow. I will respond to the others after this one.
Is there a way for a parent to know for sure that an educational consultant is not taking compensation for referrals?
No, I suppose consultants could be unethical like any other business, parents just need to be careful or make sure their consultant is affiliated with a respectable group.
I've never seen or head of a program where admitting a problem wasn't an absolute requirement for advancement in the program. With no due process and often no medical diagnosis and/or second opinion, it stands to reason that a good portion of kids confess (and actually believe) problems they don't actually have. I've seen it happen with my own eyes.
All the kids that I have ever seen had a diagnosis of some type or had seen a specialist(s) before going to any specialty school. The kids all know why they are there and are working individual issues.
I said:The children can work with staff within a group situation to discuss generic topics and how they feel within social situations and work on items which affect the kids within the dynamics of the schools day to day operations like class time, group,lunch,dinner times,social conflicts etc.
Michael said: That's the marketing, yes, but i've never actually see that truly happen. If you know of a program where this is actually practiced, by all means list it.
I do not know where you wnet to but if it was a specialty school or therapeutic school then they would have a resident therapist or private therapist which would see the children. The staff is there to run “group” activities and keep the kids safe and busy with activities which are healthy.
I said "unrestricted contact with parents". Considering history and what has happened in the past, is there really anything at all that can justify interfering with that?
For a short adjustment period of a few weeks I don’t see any problem with it. You need to remember that most of these kids didn’t talk to their parents for weeks/months on end anyway (in any positive communicable way)! A few more isn’t going to effect the natural bond between them.
I had a parent once who was concerned that the school was not up to the academic standards of the private school they were presently attending. I asked the parents how many days has the child attended the school in the last month. The point is that you can be enrolled in the best school in the country but if you don’t attend or apply yourself then its all for nothing.
I Said: Agreed, that is why I suggest a local hospital to perform a 24 hour observation and assessment alone with the childs therapist to collaborate.
Michael said: Wow. You are the first educational consultant I have EVER heard suggest such a thing. EVER. I know a lot of parents who call up referral services with fake kids and frivolous issues and they have never heard such a thing. Forgive me if i'm skeptical.
Can you name me a program that doesn't admit kids for things like "ADD/ADHD" or "depression" or "disrespectful" and so on?
I don’t feel my view is unique. Maybe some schools would take a child who was just being disrespectful, but I don’t think the average educational consultant would suggest a family take this path without having the child evaluated. I think if someone told you this there was probably more going on then just disrespect or ADD.
The problem there is that many programs operate more like thought reform (brainwashing) environments. Have you ever asked yourself how kids could come out of the most abusive programs exclaiming "the program saved my life!" and so forth? Anecdotal, short term, testimonials are not evidence of efficacy. They're evidence of how a person views the program. In that respect, it is nearly impossible to distinguish (without knowing the right questions) whether or not an experiences was truly helpful, or whether abuse has simply been reframed as "therapy". When Interviewing kids recently out of programs, I don't ask questions like "were you abused". I ask questions like "how did the staff help you to realize you had a problem" (and follow up for details). You'd often be shocked at what you hear.
Depends on how far the child has come. If the child was in a really bad place and knew he/she was in a bad place and the school turned them around then they would be more apt to say it “saved their life”. Most kids just come out better off and move on with their lives. As far as the interviewing goes it really depends on the person doing the interview. If a person was against specialty schools the questions would lead more in that direction. If the interview was conducted on the same child by a staff member from one of the schools then the results would be different. But I do appreaciate what you mean and I am aware of that.
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Femanonfetal you stated a lot and I apologize for not addressing everything. For the most part I believe you have a very cynical view of what these schools do for these families and lack some understanding on why they do what they do. I don’t know if I will be able to address all of your points.
I always believe that you need to approach each child independently. Some kids are just going thru a tough time which can be resolved thru local services like a counselor or a good child therapist. I have seen many kids before and after attending many of these schools and I can tell you that they are affective. I have spoken to parents. Some of the kids come out and go right back to drugs or bad habits which is unfortunate. Maybe the child didnt apply themselves properly. I understand that not all the schools are 100% effective and that there are some bad ones out there. I feel good in the fact that I don’t support these institutions and have the childs best interest first.
Most kids I knew in CBS had barely experimented with alcohol and 5-8 years after the program they have done every drug in the book. WHY? because the program didnt teach them ABOUT drugs, their effects and how they can ruin their life, the program simply made each girl believe they were an addict and if they didnt accept the program they were going to die. This is most likely the reason that most teens after graduating and given the time it takes to deprogram, realize they would rather live their life even into an early grave than to live their life in the fear and guilt that the program held over their head.
Most of the schools I have dealt with have a well defined program which talks about drugs and substance awareness. I don’t think teaching them about drugs is damaging. If the child wasnot in a program he/she would have learned about it on the streets and probably would not get all the facts. A drug dealer isn’t going to tell you about the down side of each drug he sells. Or side effect.
Forced "treatment" is different then paying to have your child incarcerated in a private prison. If a child is reluctant to treatment such as therapy, or extremely necessary drug treatment or family counseling I can understand a strong parenting hand in the matter. But when you are essentially taking their lives and future into your hands and making such a grossly misguided and completely unethical choice for them, I think they have the right to at least be able to tell you "No, this place is not for me". Things really don't get "better" in the program, no kid suddenly realizes that they deserved to be locked up and abused, that is simply the brainwashing, and the fear of being punished or singled out starting to kick in. You can believe the facade if you choose, but considering how unlikely that actuality is, I would be suspecious at that point.
I see your point but sometimes the child will reject any help at all no matter how reasonable and the parents need to take a strong stance.
So Kathy, How many paying parents have you had to tell... "Your son is simply being a normal rebellious teenager, smoking weed is not going to kill him, perhaps your abrasive parenting and gross overreaction is the case is what is causing your child to pull away from you"
I garrentee NONE. They are paying you to find a private prison......
Your a little out of your expertise here. You would not believe the conversations I have with parents. A good part of my jab is calming them down and getting them to chat a little bit about the challenges of raising a teenager and getting to understand each families unique challenge. I am not trying to find a private prison but trying to find a place which will release the child from the private prison they have built for themselves. Many of these kids are living in hell. You would have no idea the lives these kids lead prior to getting help.
False. Completely False. I can understand restricting letters or phone calls from friends but what Psy is referring to is that the contact with the parents is restricted and monitored and it shouldn't be. There is no reason for that besides the fact that they are making sure that the kid isnt telling the parents things they dont know about the program or telling them that they want to leave. On the same subject children NEED to be able to access child protective services and they are not allowed to do this. This is the biggest RED FLAG in a program, even the inmates in a maximum security prison are allowed their right to private counsel and these children should most definately be given the same rights. The fact that they dont allow this ONLY means that they have something to hide and that they are controlling and mistreating these kids and making them feel hopeless about it because there is no way that they can cry for help without receiving MORE abuse.
You seem to be misguided by your views on these schools. No one is going to restrict a child from using a phone if there is an emergency. Communication is greatly reduced for a good reason. You cannot have kids running around with phones and ipods like they do in public schools. Look at the reulsts there. The kids get to talk to their parents probably more than they did when they were home and they get to focus on some real issues which will lead to re-establishing the family bond which has been damaged.
Your language of parents wanting to “lock their kids up” tells me that you have a narrow view of the industry. Maybe you had a friend who felt their parents wanted to get rid of them or have them locked up, which I can understand. Growing up we called our school “The Vault” because the windows were so high we couldn’t see out when sitting at our desks. So if kids say they were “locked up” you should try to understand it from their point of view and not be shocked by the terminology.
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“Post me”. Why come out and attack me for what I do? I understand that you had a bad experience but not all therapists, staff members and educational consultants are the same. I get enormous satisfaction in what I do and I sacrificed a lot of my personal life to get to where I am.
You know the study where 12 "normal" Harvard students all checked themselves into a psychiatric hospital and EVERY ONE was given a diagnosis. You know 9xs out of 10 ANY kid taken to a therapist will be given a dx, especially when they come with copious complaints from the parents. You know all this, so your insinuation that therapist-use will safeguard against abduction and imprisonment for kids who are not seriously mentally ill is a lie, and you know it.
Any child can go to the doctor or therapist and manipulate them. I have had many instances where a child has been able to get pain medication from doctors for a fake illness. Eventually the doctor catches on so, yes, the doctors can be fooled, but not for very long.
Same thing happened to Elizabeth Smart. At first she had to literally be abducted from her bedroom to consent to entering treatment with the crazy homeless man! But in a month’s time, when the police tried to rescue her, she insisted she was the crazy homeless man’s wife and didn't want to leave! He had "saved" her from a life of sin! Amazing what you can make someone believe by isolating, torturing, and terrorizing them, child murderer!
I don’t see how this relates to a boarding school and I do remember that Elizabeth Smart was not murdered. You have confused this story with another one.
Oops. Then why are you referring? There has never been one study produced to prove these places do anything than destroy people. And it has been proved that residential treatment (in real hospitals, not bemod torture centers) for longer than a short period of time causes damage to the patient. Considering the statistics how do you justify yourself. Oh yeah, you have no bankable skills and ya gotta make a living somehow!
I have seen many studies which shows the success of these schools. They are not very scientific or clinical but the results have been favourable.
how do you know if the kids you refer "fail"? Do you keep tabs on them and statistics? Are they autheticated in some way, or is there any proof you don't simply "make them up"? Where can I acess these figures? Oh, yeah. I can't! They don't exist!
I have seen the before and after of each child. There is no need to be snippity. I don’t make any statistics or figues myself!
"Try" counsling? Why should therapy for the abusive family only be the “first option”?
Not sure what you mean? Getting therapy for the entire family helps that thereapist to see the dynamics of the family and not just the child
Why should the failure of abusive or mentally ill parents to get their act together be something a kid is punished for in the form of imprisonment without due process in conditions that are illegal to force on criminals in maximum security prison?
Not sure what all that means. If the parents are mentally ill then child services usually take over or intervene. Most parents who are mentally ill could not afford a specialty school for their kids or even recognize that their kids need help. As far as the kids going to prison this is up to the court system and the child would probably get therapy support at the state or federal level. I am not real familiar with this area. Was this
Why doesn't the youth deserve due process, you grotesque, bigoted slaver? Why don’t humans under 18 only deserve HUMAN RIGHTS, instead of OPTIONS for their “owners.”?
Oh yeah, you couldn’t earn cash for bodies that way!
Screw you,"post it" ,you spoiled brat, what are you on drugs. What is it that you do with your life that is so great. You don’t even know me. May initial thoughts of you were correct. You are narrow minded and have very little understanding of the industry. Show me some statistics on how "you" have help kids out a bad situation. I am looking for long term clinical studies,not just your opinion!!. Try to work towards reversing the law that states parents are responsible for their kids until age 18 instead of trying to blame parents for not giving kids freedoms to hurt themselves and others.
I am not responding to you further until you apologize.
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Oh my! There is a lot to respond to. I didn’t expect to take up this much space. I apologize for being so slow. I will respond to the others after this one.
Is there a way for a parent to know for sure that an educational consultant is not taking compensation for referrals?
No, I suppose consultants could be unethical like any other business, parents just need to be careful or make sure their consultant is affiliated with a respectable group.
How does that ensure anything? The most "respectable" group of educational consultants is the IECA, and although they do have ethical guidelines, they also have no real method of enforcing them. If an educational consultant is taking kickbacks it won't matter if he promised not to do it at some point. Nobody is holding him/her to it.
Michael said: That's the marketing, yes, but i've never actually see that truly happen. If you know of a program where this is actually practiced, by all means list it.
I do not know where you wnet to but if it was a specialty school or therapeutic school then they would have a resident therapist or private therapist which would see the children. The staff is there to run “group” activities and keep the kids safe and busy with activities which are healthy.
Again. Thats the theory and the marketing, but i've never seen or even heard of it practiced like taht. It sounds like you're being a bit evasive here. If you know of a program where this is practiced. Please list it.
I said "unrestricted contact with parents". Considering history and what has happened in the past, is there really anything at all that can justify interfering with that?
For a short adjustment period of a few weeks I don’t see any problem with it. You need to remember that most of these kids didn’t talk to their parents for weeks/months on end anyway (in any positive communicable way)! A few more isn’t going to effect the natural bond between them.
I had a parent once who was concerned that the school was not up to the academic standards of the private school they were presently attending. I asked the parents how many days has the child attended the school in the last month. The point is that you can be enrolled in the best school in the country but if you don’t attend or apply yourself then its all for nothing.
Again. You're sounding a bit evasive here. You didn't answer the question. You answered whether you have a problem with it, but not what I asked, which was whether there is anything that can justify interfering with parent child communication (what is the up-side)?
Can you name me a program that doesn't admit kids for things like "ADD/ADHD" or "depression" or "disrespectful" and so on?
I don’t feel my view is unique. Maybe some schools would take a child who was just being disrespectful, but I don’t think the average educational consultant would suggest a family take this path without having the child evaluated. I think if someone told you this there was probably more going on then just disrespect or ADD.
*facepalm* But I asked you whether you know of a program... Oh nevermind. Do you think it's ethical for a program to accept kids without diagnoses? Based on a phone interview?
But I do appreaciate what you mean and I am aware of that.
That's good. Because studying how abusive programs have "worked" in the past (what mechanisms have helped them to work... very similar to cults) can help a person recognize current, similar trends in programs (Isaccorp has good warning signs in this regard). So far as i've seen I haven't been able to find a single program where such warning signs do not exist (which is why I asked if you knew of a "good" program).
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No, I suppose consultants could be unethical like any other business, parents just need to be careful or make sure their consultant is affiliated with a respectable group.
Such as? The only groups for them to be affiliated with are basically self governing. Programs pay a fee and get the stamp of approval. It doesn't mean anything. There's no follow up or continuing education requirements.
For a short adjustment period of a few weeks I don’t see any problem with it.
What's the reasoning for it? Why is it ever necessary to monitor communication between a parent and child?
You need to remember that most of these kids didn’t talk to their parents for weeks/months on end anyway (in any positive communicable way)! A few more isn’t going to effect the natural bond between them.
Yes, it will. They're being forced to be non-communicative. They're removed from everything they feel comfortable with and are then prevented from communicating with their parents for what therapeutic reason?
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I have seen many studies which shows the success of these schools. They are not very scientific or clinical but the results have been favourable.
Re-read that and lemme know if you want to stick with it.
I have seen the before and after of each child. There is no need to be snippity. I don’t make any statistics or figues myself!
The after for how long? It's usually taken a minimum of at least 5 years for the brainwashing to wear off before any of us began to understand what happened to us.
I am looking for long term clinical studies,
So are we.
I am not responding to you further until you apologize.
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
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How does that ensure anything? The most "respectable" group of educational consultants is the IECA, and although they do have ethical guidelines, they also have no real method of enforcing them. If an educational consultant is taking kickbacks it won't matter if he promised not to do it at some point. Nobody is holding him/her to it.
IECA personnel go thru ethics training. But like any other job a person can go bad. A well respected doctor could push a medication because he gets kick backs.
Again. Thats the theory and the marketing, but i've never seen or even heard of it practiced like taht. It sounds like you're being a bit evasive here. If you know of a program where this is practiced. Please list it.
I hesitate to name schools here because the focus then becomes to discredit the ones listed instead of the topic at hand, which can be easily done for any school or category.
Again. You're sounding a bit evasive here. You didn't answer the question. You answered whether you have a problem with it, but not what I asked, which was whether there is anything that can justify interfering with parent child communication (what is the up-side)?
The upside would be that the child gets a break from the family dynamics which could be causing some issues with the kid. Maybe the child isn’t working too well within the family environment and needs to learn a few coping skills to deal with the communication.
*facepalm* But I asked you whether you know of a program... Oh nevermind. Do you think it's ethical for a program to accept kids without diagnoses? Based on a phone interview?
There needs to be a problem in order to work on possible solutions. If the family needs a break and wants to travel to Europe for a year, specialty schools are not a solution for off loading a child. They have regular Boarding schools for that. Noo ne could get to know a family enough over the phone. The phone interview may cause the family to seek solutions locally and then have that information forward to the school and or ed consultant. But on phone call could never be enough, in my opinion, to place a child
That's good. Because studying how abusive programs have "worked" in the past (what mechanisms have helped them to work... very similar to cults) can help a person recognize current, similar trends in programs (Isaccorp has good warning signs in this regard). So far as i've seen I haven't been able to find a single program where such warning signs do not exist (which is why I asked if you knew of a "good" program).
I wouldn’t not recommend someone to a school because it contained one of 10 warning signs. I have not seen your list of warning signs but you may be miss led on how to apply them. Warning signs are meant to raise awareness. For example one of the warning signs of depression is weight loss. But because a child is losing weight does not mean they have depression, they could have a serious medical condition or just be on a silly diet due to social pressure, but it is something to keep your eye on.
I could never give a full list of schools, but a few that come to mind are:
Wil Lou Gray
The Academy
The family foundation school
Fulshear ranch academy
Most of the Aspen schools and wilderness programs
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I hesitate to name schools here because the focus then becomes to discredit the ones listed instead of the topic at hand, which can be easily done for any school or category.
Yeah, that's usually the excuse.
The upside would be that the child gets a break from the family dynamics which could be causing some issues with the kid. Maybe the child isn’t working too well within the family environment and needs to learn a few coping skills to deal with the communication.
It's fine to try and assist with family communication, but what purpose does it serve to prohibit it? What if a parent AND child BOTH requested to speak privately? Would that be honored?
There needs to be a problem in order to work on possible solutions.
I know you probably didn't mean it how that sounded but wow. Yes.....in order for programs to sell themselves to gullible parents there needs to be a problem. But what if there's not really a problem? What if just a couple of over-reactive parents? Programs are well adept at creating the fear in parents that there might someday be a problem if they don't catch that defiant behavior quick!!! :o ::OMG::
I could never give a full list of schools, but a few that come to mind are:
Wil Lou Gray
The Academy
The family foundation school
Fulshear ranch academy
Most of the Aspen schools and wilderness programs
You're saying these are acceptable to you? You recommend Aspen??? Honestly? This has GOT to be a joke, right?
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How does that ensure anything? The most "respectable" group of educational consultants is the IECA, and although they do have ethical guidelines, they also have no real method of enforcing them. If an educational consultant is taking kickbacks it won't matter if he promised not to do it at some point. Nobody is holding him/her to it.
IECA personnel go thru ethics training. But like any other job a person can go bad. A well respected doctor could push a medication because he gets kick backs.
Sure. But a doctor can get in trouble for such behavior. There is the possibility he could lose his license or even go to jail. There are no such consequences for educational consultants taking kickbacks (other than the possibility of civil suits). What you seem to be saying is "yes, there is no way a parent can be sure... but it's not so bad since it happens elsewhere too!". Am I right?
Again. You're sounding a bit evasive here. You didn't answer the question. You answered whether you have a problem with it, but not what I asked, which was whether there is anything that can justify interfering with parent child communication (what is the up-side)?
The upside would be that the child gets a break from the family dynamics which could be causing some issues with the kid. Maybe the child isn’t working too well within the family environment and needs to learn a few coping skills to deal with the communication.
Fair enough. That's usually the answer i've heard in teh past, but the fact of the matter is: whatever possible upsides to the lack of communication, the downsides are that if there is abuse it will go unreported. During the 30 day period a "bad" program can discredit a student to the parents (telling them to expect manipulation) and threatening the kid to give only positive reports about the program(either implicitly or explicitly through punishment after the fact, or cutting off the call). The danger is what such restriction in communication allows.
*facepalm* But I asked you whether you know of a program... Oh nevermind. Do you think it's ethical for a program to accept kids without diagnoses? Based on a phone interview?
There needs to be a problem in order to work on possible solutions. If the family needs a break and wants to travel to Europe for a year, specialty schools are not a solution for off loading a child. They have regular Boarding schools for that. Noo ne could get to know a family enough over the phone. The phone interview may cause the family to seek solutions locally and then have that information forward to the school and or ed consultant. But on phone call could never be enough, in my opinion, to place a child
When you were talking to Marcy, you recommended a website she visit. That website is one of WWASP's referral websites. I know parents who have called up that very number and gotten kids accepted over the phone. It was not a soft sell at all. In fact, the parents were quite pressured to place. In addition, the "assessment" that was given was a series of questions such as:
13. Is your teen manipulative or deceitful? [which ones aren't]
14. Does your teen seem to lack motivation?
15. Do you suspect that your teen lies or is dishonest?
16. Are you concerned that your teen may be sexually active? [my GOD! the HORROR]
17. Any evidence of suicidal ideation? [interesting that the program's contract in the fine print says they do not accept kids who are suicidal]
18. Do you suspect that you have had money or valuables missing? [must have been the teen then!]
19. Does your teen's behavior concern you for their safety? [this is NORMAL, you yourself admitted it]
20. Is your teen angry or displaying anger outbursts? [with parents sending a kid to program for these reasons, who wouldn't be!]
21. Does your teen seem to lack self-esteem and self worth? [must be drugs!]
22. Do you have a lack of trust with your teen? [warning. this problem requires institutionalization!]
23. Does your teen have problems with authority? [there was a time when this was considered to be a good thing. Power corrupts. It's wise to teach this early and well. Might does not make right]
24. Does your teen engage in activities you don't approve of? [depending on the parent, this could be a very, very long list]
25. Do you think your teen is using or experimenting with drugs/alcohol? [screw proof. suspicion is enough]
26. Are you concerned about your child's well being and their future? [lol! which parents aren't!]
ALL the questions are like this, many of which are reworded/duplicate, leading, or flat out rigged. There are 30 of them. Here is the key:
18+: HIGH RISK. Get help! A Residential Center, Treatment Program or Specialty School is STRONGLY RECOMMENDED. Call me now at 1-800-250-5446.
9-17:Borderline Risk. The problems may be resolved by tightening up the family rules and structure. However, a Residential Center Treatment Program or Specialty School may need to be considered.
Do you not investigate the options you recommend?
I wouldn’t not recommend someone to a school because it contained one of 10 warning signs.
Would you recommend a school that has been under investigation by the authorities with substantiated accounts of abuse (by authorities as well as independent watchdogs), with lawsuits, and with congressional testimony against it?
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Well Kathy, Thank you for your response. I'm not going to waste my time on a quoting war because based on your answers I have a good idea what any future answers to my questions would be. But I will just interject on one point:
Femanonfatal you stated a lot and I apologize for not addressing everything. For the most part I believe you have a very cynical view of what these schools do for these families and lack some understanding on why they do what they do.
What you probably arent aware of is that my cynical view comes from my first hand expereince with 2 WWASP programs, and futhermore completely validated by the HUNDREDS of people I have spoken to that attended ALL of the WWASP schools and many other Behavior Modification programs, both current and many that were closed due to evidence of abuse and cruelty. One of which you may have heard of was High Impact, My experience here will not only color my view of programs forever but it generally colors my life. Forgive me if I am not holding my breath for the same people who put me in dog cages to come up with another school that is wonderful and great, I tend to think evil people will always be evil people. The one thing you havent experienced is the day to day at a program, I have and I can tell you in all honesty that in too many ways to count they have it all wrong. something you mentioned is that no one will be stopped from calling their parents if it is an emergency, well I don't recall there ever being a telephone available except in the office of the case manager or of an administrator. But I do recall, when I demanded to speak to my mother that I was tackled and tortured in a torn out bathroom for a week straight. You must understand the psychological effects of the practice of complete control, these kids live in fear no matter what program. In some, its fear of being physically abused and others is of simply being singled out and loosing privledges or their progress home. Either way the children learn to avoid reaching out, speaking out or making any kind of stand for their human rights. and this happens in the seemingly "good" schools too I am more than sure of it. I think if you asked ANY survivor they would tell you the abuse exists, the problem is, some of them are lead to believe that this abuse was treatment and that they deserved it and would have been worse off with out it. I think that kind of thinking is only pure evidence of brainwashing and or Stockholm Syndrome. No child comes out of juvie (where they are actually allowed their fundemental rights) and is thankful that they were given the opportunity to go there. Dont you see how ridiculous the concept that these children would be on their own appreciative of being incarcerated? and yes it is being "locked up" because for any number of months or year these girls are not allowed to leave the compound and if they try to run away they get dragged back and abused. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT BEING LOCKED UP IS!!!
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Sure. But a doctor can get in trouble for such behavior. There is the possibility he could lose his license or even go to jail. There are no such consequences for educational consultants taking kickbacks (other than the possibility of civil suits). What you seem to be saying is "yes, there is no way a parent can be sure... but it's not so bad since it happens elsewhere too!". Am I right?
Well there is some consequence (http://http://www.sueschefftruth.com/) if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open. But you are right anyone could set up shop and hang out a sign.
Fair enough. That's usually the answer i've heard in teh past, but the fact of the matter is: whatever possible upsides to the lack of communication, the downsides are that if there is abuse it will go unreported. During the 30 day period a "bad" program can discredit a student to the parents (telling them to expect manipulation) and threatening the kid to give only positive reports about the program(either implicitly or explicitly through punishment after the fact, or cutting off the call). The danger is what such restriction in communication allows.
That is why I am careful on where I place a child and insure there is no risk (or minimal risk) of a child ending up in a situation as you described above. Do you believe all programs do this? Or is your belief that there is a risk of this happening?
When you were talking to Marcy, you recommended a website she visit. That website is one of WWASP's referral websites. I know parents who have called up that very number and gotten kids accepted over the phone. It was not a soft sell at all. In fact, the parents were quite pressured to place. In addition, the "assessment" that was given was a series of questions such as:
ALL the questions are like this, many of which are reworded/duplicate, leading, or flat out rigged. There are 30 of them. Here is the key:
18+: HIGH RISK. Get help! A Residential Center, Treatment Program or Specialty School is STRONGLY RECOMMENDED. Call me now at 1-800-250-5446.
9-17:Borderline Risk. The problems may be resolved by tightening up the family rules and structure. However, a Residential Center Treatment Program or Specialty School may need to be considered.
Do you not investigate the options you recommend?
I am aware of what happens when parents call, but I still recommend them reviewing the site. I also recommend parents visit and read certain areas of fornits. I ask them to read and review and not commit to any decision until they get back to me. If they are still serious and believe that they are interested in a boarding school situation then we go from there. WWASP are not target programs for me.
I investigate the schools before discussing them with anyone.
Would you recommend a school that has been under investigation by the authorities with substantiated accounts of abuse (by authorities as well as independent watchdogs), with lawsuits, and with congressional testimony against it?
Depends on what the allegations were and what the school is doing in response. Sometimes after the spotlight has been on a school it rises up and becomes better than the best. Although it could be short lived also, so its good to keep and ear on the rail.
Do you have any schools which you consider the best of the bad (knowing you don’t recommend programs to anyone)
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Well Kathy, Thank you for your response. I'm not going to waste my time on a quoting war because based on your answers I have a good idea what any future answers to my questions would be. But I will just interject on one point:
Femanonfatal you stated a lot and I apologize for not addressing everything. For the most part I believe you have a very cynical view of what these schools do for these families and lack some understanding on why they do what they do.
What you probably arent aware of is that my cynical view comes from my first hand expereince with 2 WWASP programs, and futhermore completely validated by the HUNDREDS of people I have spoken to that attended ALL of the WWASP schools and many other Behavior Modification programs, both current and many that were closed due to evidence of abuse and cruelty. One of which you may have heard of was High Impact, My experience here will not only color my view of programs forever but it generally colors my life. Forgive me if I am not holding my breath for the same people who put me in dog cages to come up with another school that is wonderful and great, I tend to think evil people will always be evil people. The one thing you havent experienced is the day to day at a program, I have and I can tell you in all honesty that in too many ways to count they have it all wrong. something you mentioned is that no one will be stopped from calling their parents if it is an emergency, well I don't recall there ever being a telephone available except in the office of the case manager or of an administrator. But I do recall, when I demanded to speak to my mother that I was tackled and tortured in a torn out bathroom for a week straight. You must understand the psychological effects of the practice of complete control, these kids live in fear no matter what program. In some, its fear of being physically abused and others is of simply being singled out and loosing privledges or their progress home. Either way the children learn to avoid reaching out, speaking out or making any kind of stand for their human rights. and this happens in the seemingly "good" schools too I am more than sure of it. I think if you asked ANY survivor they would tell you the abuse exists, the problem is, some of them are lead to believe that this abuse was treatment and that they deserved it and would have been worse off with out it. I think that kind of thinking is only pure evidence of brainwashing and or Stockholm Syndrome. No child comes out of juvie (where they are actually allowed their fundemental rights) and is thankful that they were given the opportunity to go there. Dont you see how ridiculous the concept that these children would be on their own appreciative of being incarcerated? and yes it is being "locked up" because for any number of months or year these girls are not allowed to leave the compound and if they try to run away they get dragged back and abused. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT BEING LOCKED UP IS!!!
femanonFatal, I am sorry to hear what you have gone thru. I can honestly tell you that I have never experienced that with anyone I have spoken to and maybe it is because I read extensively on schools, articles and fornits and have avoided places with a high risk associated with it.
I believe that abuse exists but I also believe that it is not systemic nor ingrained in the industry.
I believe regulation is on its way which will help weed out some of the wicked places which exist in all businesses, but unfortunately we are years away at best. Hopefully we can avoid sending kids to these places byraising awareness via getting the word out and talking about everyones experiences.
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Well there is some consequence (http://http://www.sueschefftruth.com/) if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open. But you are right anyone could set up shop and hang out a sign.
The Ed-Conartist (Pun intended) faced no charges, criminal or civil from what I understand. The fact that anyone can hang up a sign and declare themselves and "edcon" makes it a bit different than your MD analogy then, huh?
That is why I am careful on where I place a child and insure there is no risk (or minimal risk) of a child ending up in a situation as you described above. Do you believe all programs do this? Or is your belief that there is a risk of this happening?
I personally believe that most programs do this because it helps to indoctrinate the child. If he's isolated and scared, he'll be more apt to comply quickly.
I am aware of what happens when parents call, but I still recommend them reviewing the site. I also recommend parents visit and read certain areas of fornits. I ask them to read and review and not commit to any decision until they get back to me. If they are still serious and believe that they are interested in a boarding school situation then we go from there. WWASP are not target programs for me.
I investigate the schools before discussing them with anyone.
Would or have you referred to WWASPS schools?
Depends on what the allegations were and what the school is doing in response. Sometimes after the spotlight has been on a school it rises up and becomes better than the best. Although it could be short lived also, so its good to keep and ear on the rail.
Do you have any schools which you consider the best of the bad (knowing you don’t recommend programs to anyone)
I have no idea how to respond to that. It's very sad.
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Well there is some consequence (http://http://www.sueschefftruth.com/) if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open.
Lol. You have a point. But she is just one of many.
That is why I am careful on where I place a child and insure there is no risk (or minimal risk) of a child ending up in a situation as you described above.
And yet you referred the parent to a WWASP website? That doesn't make a lot of sense. You wrote: "If you enter any reputable site your identity is safe and there are built in procedures which keeps your identity private. The links I provided are secure sites for you to visit." While I admit that is slightly out of context, you did imply their site was reputable.
Do you believe all programs do this? Or is your belief that there is a risk of this happening?
No. I do not believe that all programs do this. But I do believe that many programs do, and with the amount of bad programs out there, it's not worth taking the risk (it's like russian roulette, but with worse odds). Many abusive programs that have been shut down were opened for a long time and had few allegations of abuse until much later (when a lot more was uncovered). Straight Inc (http://http://www.rickross.com/reference/straight/straight55.html). is a good example of this. It was endorsed by both Nancy Reagan and Bush Sr. It's almost impossible to tell a good program from a bad one (even to the trained eye). There are just too many ways to be slippery about doing things. Even today, Straight Inc derived programs (http://http://troubled-teen-industry.com/video/40-general/67-abc-report-on-kids-helping-kids-a-pathway-family-center) exist using similar or identical methods.
Another case study would be Alldredge Academy (AKA, the Ayne Institute). They got shut down so they opened the next day under a new "official" name but kept the old name on their marketing. There are far too many instances of this kind of thing.
I am aware of what happens when parents call, but I still recommend them reviewing the site.
For what possible good reason? That does not make a whole lot of sense. A parent is looking for help and you refer them to the lions den for.... ??? I can understand trying to say "hey... look at how they con you, and here's how"... but without a warning or disclaimer... even implying it's reputable. Again... It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Would you recommend a school that has been under investigation by the authorities with substantiated accounts of abuse (by authorities as well as independent watchdogs), with lawsuits, and with congressional testimony against it?
Depends on what the allegations were and what the school is doing in response. Sometimes after the spotlight has been on a school it rises up and becomes better than the best. Although it could be short lived also, so its good to keep and ear on the rail.
Well. What about Family Foundation. You mentioned that and i'm familiar with it and would endorse it as a good program. Are you aware of the allegations against it? I am aware of their response, but i've heard "we don't do that anymore" far too many times to take it seriously. Is it worth taking the risk. Have you spoken to kids who have been in FFS with critical viewpoints? Asked questions? Asked what to look for?
Do you have any schools which you consider the best of the bad (knowing you don’t recommend programs to anyone)
lol. You're setting me up with that one there. I'll tell you what the worst of the worst is if that's what you're wondering (but then again this is just my opinion). I'd have to say Judge Rotenberg center would be high up there along with the WWASP facilities and the Pathway Family Centers.
I don't do "this is good" I do "this is bad". It's a useful counterbalance to the marketing. It's a practice that, while seemingly distasteful or overly negative actually serves a quite useful function (as you put it, consequences). If the government can't and/or won't do it, private citizens and watchdogs must (I prefer it that way. I've rarely ever seen the government get much of anything right.)
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Well there is some consequence (http://http://www.sueschefftruth.com/) if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open. But you are right anyone could set up shop and hang out a sign.
The Ed-Conartist (Pun intended) faced no charges, criminal or civil from what I understand.
Not quite true. She's being sued by at least one of her former clients (whom she referred to Focal Point Academy). (http://http://www.sueschefftruth.com/?p=11) Harbor Oaks is another lawsuit waiting to happen. I'm a big believer in the use of civil suits to help keep these clowns in check.
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I could never give a full list of schools, but a few that come to mind are:
Wil Lou Gray
The Academy
The family foundation school
Fulshear ranch academy
Most of the Aspen schools and wilderness programs
:cry: :cry:
Someone pull up the stats for these cultic-gulags, please?
Here's some basic info about family foundation. You are doing a great job, kathy S, of murdering young adults. How does it feel to look in the mirror and see a murderer staring back at you? Let me guess? You don't care. People of your sort simply don't.
http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/ ... school.htm (http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/thefamilyfoundationschool.htm)
"My name is Brendan Burns. I live in North Hollywood CA my phone number is 818-809-7787 I took the following essay from what i wrote on the website cafety.org. I would like to empasise however that the use of duct tape to restrain teenagers was almost never used because anyone was a threat to themselves or someone else. It was almost always used when a child either wanted to be left alone and would not participate or if they were argumentative. I would also like to emphasize that this happened alot. Not just once or twice. Also for those of us who were there and saw what happened first hand. There is absoluely no question about wheather the kids were a danger to anyone. They were not. I have seen kids who were in isolation for a while refused food or given miniscule and bland amounts of food. Here is an honest simply put account of what it was like to be sent to the family school.
I attended The Family Foundation School in Hancock NY from 95 to 97 or 96 to 98(not sure which) I spent 14 months in the facility one of the record short stays at the time because there was an 18 month minimum though it was rare that they let anyone go in that short period of time. Upon arriving at the Family I was welcomed fairly warmly ( I soon realized this was only because my father was there) ... They took my cloths and replaced them with dorky ones. They also took any reading material I may have selected to bring with me and music. They put me with a buddy (a senior member (a person who had formed into the model)) he seemed bizarrely positive about the place when speaking to my dad. He emphatically emphasized how grateful he was that he came here and that it changed his life for the better. I said goodbye to my dad and he drove off.
They explained to me what I was not to talk about, that I was not to hum any music that was not approved by the ffs, not to read any newspapers, I was not allowed to use the telephone, they would read my mail, “so I better not say anything negative in my letters”. I was not allowed to be alone. I was not allowed to masturbate (they monitored the showers 3 minutes max with someone standing next to the shower and went with you to the bathroom). Basically all information coming into or out of my mind was to be dictated by and monitored by the FFS, and anything I did or said which indicated a lack of 100 percent compliance and belief in the FFS philosophy would be punished harshly.
In addition if I so much as suspected let alone overheard or witnessed anyone doing or saying anything "negative" I would be held equally responsible for their actions as if they were my own including witnessing someone else witnessing something and not saying anything about it, which I eventually realized created a race to tell on people. I mean you seriously could not get away with anything period. Something seemed awfully strange about this place. I asked questions and couldn't seem to get any answers. It was like talking to computers that were only programmed with certain responses. It didn't take long to realize everyone was brainwashed or pretending to be. Everyone was a brick wall.
I was freaked out. I actually believed that I was going to find a way out of this place. I thought I could get my parents to come get me or something but that was pretty difficult considering I had no way of contacting them at first and when I finally did get that privilege they explained any attempt at "manipulating” my parents by being negative about the program would immediately result in the call being ended and I would be on blackout where I couldn’t speak to anyone period especially my family.They had also already informed my parents that I may attempt to “manipulate” them and that it would be in my best interest not to succumb to my dishonest behavior. After all they were the experts. They knew exactly how to handle a troubled youth, and in the end I would be grateful for this experience.
I was labeled negative of course because I was by nature outspoken when I didn't agree and defiant when I didn't want to do something especially if I believed it was wrong. I tried to fight it but as one of the senior members said when I was trying to argue one night "he'll learn" and I did. I was not to speak my own opinion or indicate that I had one under any circumstances, unless it was in 100 percent agreement with the FFS philosophy. In fact the FFS philosophy was to be my opinion 100 percent of the time if I indicated or was even accused of anything less I was to be publicly confronted and screamed at. Then I would be told to sit in a corner. The Corner... you know like in preschool go sit in time out. The Corner was indefinite, with a minimum of 24 hours. If you did not stay in the corner or if you refused you would be duct taped to the chair or your feet would be duct taped together your arms would be duct taped to your back and you would be rolled in a blanket like a burrito and that would be wrapped in more duct tape then you would be put in isolation in duct tape which was actually a boot closet with some book shelves in it. When they decided it had been long enough they would let you out of the blanket then maybe isolation then from isolation back to the corner then you might be aloud out of the corner 24 hours later. It was pretty simple. Most of us, knowing what they would do if we did not comply, allowed ourselves to be subjected with whatever other humiliating and strange punishments they would think of.
If they told us to trot (which is where you have to trot any time you aren't sitting down) we trotted. If they stood us up at the table (which is where you stand up alone in front of everyone for any infraction of the rules) we stood up. If they asked a girl to recount her promiscuous sexual history …she would. And if they screamed at her telling her she was a whore and was destined to be dope shooting hooker(which seemed to be a popular opinion of the staff about most girls at the school)…. she listened… and agreed. If they took away our privilege to speak… we didn't speak. If they said sit in the corner ….we sat there. They had a pile of rocks which some kids would have to move back and forth all day from one spot to another which as tiring as it could be in itself could be worse if you were also on a trotting sanction.
They also had a large pile of cow manure for the same purpose. This seemed to be a particularly popular sanction for kids that were too fat. Fat kids were always determined to be lazy slobs who needed to exercise and work more. They were very open with degrading language and screaming they would also throw food at you while they were verbally berating you sometimes.
As time went on I learned to hate these kids who did not comply or moved too slow because they timed what we did in certain crews and they always seemed to make us lag behind and get us in trouble.
I remember one crew which had to be done in twenty minutes dish crew. It couldn't possibly be done that fast there was just no possibility of that happening 5 kids 80 peoples worth of pots pans dishes and all the surfaces and floors in the kitchen had to be perfect (and I mean that literally) perfectly clean a spot a streak dust anything left would be determined unclean we spent I don't know how long getting screamed at every day for not getting it done fast enough or not getting it clean enough, and trying to explain that it wasn't possible…. was not an option. We had to tell them they were right, that we would do better. Of course we wouldn't because we couldn't. All we could do was working our hardest and then let them yell at us and do all the extra sanctions they gave to us.
One kid decided it was impossible so he refused saying he just wasn't going to do it. He was supposed to be mopping the floor so they threw him on the ground and dumped mop water on him and used him to mop the floor until he agreed to mop the floor with the mop. The point was that he was going to mop the floor one way or another there was no way around it you were going to act say and become exactly what they wanted. and this is the way it was for us ….
we smiled when any outsiders were there acting like everything was perfect… assuring parents on tours this was the greatest place in the world …Seeing kids being duct taped up became as normal as kids in a regular school going to detention or getting write offs. I would step over squirming bodies on the floor in the dorm while talking and brushing my teeth like it was perfectly normal ….and it was at the time that’s just what happened if you didn't want to listen. It was there fault for being in the duct tape. I saw kids get punched and lifted 6 feet in the air and dropped on the ground while in these restraints. The one thing though that never seemed right was the newsletter they sent our parents. It never mentioned any of this. It always talked about the great things we were doing grades sports choir. ]They never told our parents the truth and for years after I left my parents were resistant to the truth. I told them about what really went on. After I left I felt like an alien visiting earth… everything I saw people say or do seemed wrong. I felt like I was constantly doing something wrong.. It literally took years before I got over what the family did to my emotions my mind my spirit and my personality. I was socially years behind people my own age. I had no idea how to handle the opposite sex considering for fourteen months I was monitored in the shower and the bathroom to prevent me from masturbating. Anyway I think this is enough to give an accurate picture of what the family school was like during the time I was there.
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I could never give a full list of schools, but a few that come to mind are:
Wil Lou Gray
The Academy
The family foundation school
Fulshear ranch academy
Most of the Aspen schools and wilderness programs
:cry: :cry:
Someone pull up the stats for these cultic-gulags, please?
Here's some basic info about family foundation. You are doing a great job, kathy S, of murdering young adults. How does it feel to look in the mirror and see a murderer staring back at you? Let me guess? You don't care. People of your sort simply don't.
http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/ ... school.htm (http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/thefamilyfoundationschool.htm)
"My name is Brendan Burns. I live in North Hollywood CA my phone number is 818-809-7787 I took the following essay from what i wrote on the website cafety.org. I would like to empasise however that the use of duct tape to restrain teenagers was almost never used because anyone was a threat to themselves or someone else. It was almost always used when a child either wanted to be left alone and would not participate or if they were argumentative. I would also like to emphasize that this happened alot. Not just once or twice. Also for those of us who were there and saw what happened first hand. There is absoluely no question about wheather the kids were a danger to anyone. They were not. I have seen kids who were in isolation for a while refused food or given miniscule and bland amounts of food. Here is an honest simply put account of what it was like to be sent to the family school.
I attended The Family Foundation School in Hancock NY from 95 to 97 or 96 to 98(not sure which) I spent 14 months in the facility one of the record short stays at the time because there was an 18 month minimum though it was rare that they let anyone go in that short period of time. Upon arriving at the Family I was welcomed fairly warmly ( I soon realized this was only because my father was there) ... They took my cloths and replaced them with dorky ones. They also took any reading material I may have selected to bring with me and music. They put me with a buddy (a senior member (a person who had formed into the model)) he seemed bizarrely positive about the place when speaking to my dad. He emphatically emphasized how grateful he was that he came here and that it changed his life for the better. I said goodbye to my dad and he drove off.
They explained to me what I was not to talk about, that I was not to hum any music that was not approved by the ffs, not to read any newspapers, I was not allowed to use the telephone, they would read my mail, “so I better not say anything negative in my letters”. I was not allowed to be alone. I was not allowed to masturbate (they monitored the showers 3 minutes max with someone standing next to the shower and went with you to the bathroom). Basically all information coming into or out of my mind was to be dictated by and monitored by the FFS, and anything I did or said which indicated a lack of 100 percent compliance and belief in the FFS philosophy would be punished harshly.
In addition if I so much as suspected let alone overheard or witnessed anyone doing or saying anything "negative" I would be held equally responsible for their actions as if they were my own including witnessing someone else witnessing something and not saying anything about it, which I eventually realized created a race to tell on people. I mean you seriously could not get away with anything period. Something seemed awfully strange about this place. I asked questions and couldn't seem to get any answers. It was like talking to computers that were only programmed with certain responses. It didn't take long to realize everyone was brainwashed or pretending to be. Everyone was a brick wall.
I was freaked out. I actually believed that I was going to find a way out of this place. I thought I could get my parents to come get me or something but that was pretty difficult considering I had no way of contacting them at first and when I finally did get that privilege they explained any attempt at "manipulating” my parents by being negative about the program would immediately result in the call being ended and I would be on blackout where I couldn’t speak to anyone period especially my family.They had also already informed my parents that I may attempt to “manipulate” them and that it would be in my best interest not to succumb to my dishonest behavior. After all they were the experts. They knew exactly how to handle a troubled youth, and in the end I would be grateful for this experience.
I was labeled negative of course because I was by nature outspoken when I didn't agree and defiant when I didn't want to do something especially if I believed it was wrong. I tried to fight it but as one of the senior members said when I was trying to argue one night "he'll learn" and I did. I was not to speak my own opinion or indicate that I had one under any circumstances, unless it was in 100 percent agreement with the FFS philosophy. In fact the FFS philosophy was to be my opinion 100 percent of the time if I indicated or was even accused of anything less I was to be publicly confronted and screamed at. Then I would be told to sit in a corner. The Corner... you know like in preschool go sit in time out. The Corner was indefinite, with a minimum of 24 hours. If you did not stay in the corner or if you refused you would be duct taped to the chair or your feet would be duct taped together your arms would be duct taped to your back and you would be rolled in a blanket like a burrito and that would be wrapped in more duct tape then you would be put in isolation in duct tape which was actually a boot closet with some book shelves in it. When they decided it had been long enough they would let you out of the blanket then maybe isolation then from isolation back to the corner then you might be aloud out of the corner 24 hours later. It was pretty simple. Most of us, knowing what they would do if we did not comply, allowed ourselves to be subjected with whatever other humiliating and strange punishments they would think of.
If they told us to trot (which is where you have to trot any time you aren't sitting down) we trotted. If they stood us up at the table (which is where you stand up alone in front of everyone for any infraction of the rules) we stood up. If they asked a girl to recount her promiscuous sexual history …she would. And if they screamed at her telling her she was a whore and was destined to be dope shooting hooker(which seemed to be a popular opinion of the staff about most girls at the school)…. she listened… and agreed. If they took away our privilege to speak… we didn't speak. If they said sit in the corner ….we sat there. They had a pile of rocks which some kids would have to move back and forth all day from one spot to another which as tiring as it could be in itself could be worse if you were also on a trotting sanction.
They also had a large pile of cow manure for the same purpose. This seemed to be a particularly popular sanction for kids that were too fat. Fat kids were always determined to be lazy slobs who needed to exercise and work more. They were very open with degrading language and screaming they would also throw food at you while they were verbally berating you sometimes.
As time went on I learned to hate these kids who did not comply or moved too slow because they timed what we did in certain crews and they always seemed to make us lag behind and get us in trouble.
I remember one crew which had to be done in twenty minutes dish crew. It couldn't possibly be done that fast there was just no possibility of that happening 5 kids 80 peoples worth of pots pans dishes and all the surfaces and floors in the kitchen had to be perfect (and I mean that literally) perfectly clean a spot a streak dust anything left would be determined unclean we spent I don't know how long getting screamed at every day for not getting it done fast enough or not getting it clean enough, and trying to explain that it wasn't possible…. was not an option. We had to tell them they were right, that we would do better. Of course we wouldn't because we couldn't. All we could do was working our hardest and then let them yell at us and do all the extra sanctions they gave to us.
One kid decided it was impossible so he refused saying he just wasn't going to do it. He was supposed to be mopping the floor so they threw him on the ground and dumped mop water on him and used him to mop the floor until he agreed to mop the floor with the mop. The point was that he was going to mop the floor one way or another there was no way around it you were going to act say and become exactly what they wanted. and this is the way it was for us ….
we smiled when any outsiders were there acting like everything was perfect… assuring parents on tours this was the greatest place in the world …Seeing kids being duct taped up became as normal as kids in a regular school going to detention or getting write offs. I would step over squirming bodies on the floor in the dorm while talking and brushing my teeth like it was perfectly normal ….and it was at the time that’s just what happened if you didn't want to listen. It was there fault for being in the duct tape. I saw kids get punched and lifted 6 feet in the air and dropped on the ground while in these restraints. The one thing though that never seemed right was the newsletter they sent our parents. It never mentioned any of this. It always talked about the great things we were doing grades sports choir. ]They never told our parents the truth and for years after I left my parents were resistant to the truth. I told them about what really went on. After I left I felt like an alien visiting earth… everything I saw people say or do seemed wrong. I felt like I was constantly doing something wrong.. It literally took years before I got over what the family did to my emotions my mind my spirit and my personality. I was socially years behind people my own age. I had no idea how to handle the opposite sex considering for fourteen months I was monitored in the shower and the bathroom to prevent me from masturbating. Anyway I think this is enough to give an accurate picture of what the family school was like during the time I was there.
Oh, come on, I wasnt born yesterday. First of all your link did not take me to any news article. It took me to a web site called “secret prisons for teens” where they call the kids detainees. So right off the bat we have a website which is inaccurate and not reputable. I am not aware of any school which calls its students detainees or detained kids. So it is apparent that the owner of that site (at most) might have had a friend or relative who attended this school but has no idea what the school is all about based on the vocabulary used so I am not sure how anyone who has could believe any of what is written there.
The choice of the website name alone shows it is a lampoon site and not credible. Why would you believe this stuff to be fact? Show me where Family foundation school refers to their students as detainees or detained kids. You are very guillible my friend.
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TheWho is KathyS
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Yes. The school does not refer to its detainees as detainees it uses the euphanism "student." SPFT uses the english term that appropriately descibes the captives situation, not the Orwellian newspeak that you, and FFS, as a cult and dealer in human bodies respectively prefer.
SPFT links to "articles" and sworned testimony before congree
Here is testimony of the same before congress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A)
http://www.nospank.net/szlvtz7.htm (http://www.nospank.net/szlvtz7.htm)
http://www.newpaltz.edu/oracle/article.cfm?id=3317 (http://www.newpaltz.edu/oracle/article.cfm?id=3317)
http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... my_Johnson (http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Amy_Johnson)
http://www.isaccorp.org/thayer/maia-sza ... 04.08.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/thayer/maia-szalavitz.05.04.08.html)
As an edcon who is seeminly unaware of this, you are not doing a great job of keeping educated about the private prisons you "research" and refer to. What is your name and where is your site? I mean, reputable professionals don't keep their identity hidden to prevent inquiry into their "sucess" level. Do you?
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And yet you referred the parent to a WWASP website? That doesn't make a lot of sense. You wrote: "If you enter any reputable site your identity is safe and there are built in procedures which keeps your identity private. The links I provided are secure sites for you to visit." While I admit that is slightly out of context, you did imply their site was reputable...... For what possible good reason? That does not make a whole lot of sense. A parent is looking for help and you refer them to the lions den for.... I can understand trying to say "hey... look at how they con you, and here's how"... but without a warning or disclaimer... even implying it's reputable. Again... It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me..
I talk to the parents first before the enter any of the sites or reading I recommend. I wasn’t implying reputable, just safe, as far as their identity goes. Fornits is probably safe enough but I don’t recommend parents to make posts, I have them visit to read certain threads.
Well. What about Family Foundation. You mentioned that and i'm familiar with it and would endorse it as a good program. Are you aware of the allegations against it? I am aware of their response, but i've heard "we don't do that anymore" far too many times to take it seriously. Is it worth taking the risk. Have you spoken to kids who have been in FFS with critical viewpoints? Asked questions? Asked what to look for?
I am aware of the problems they have had over the years, but they have had tremendous success. I know a few people can do a great deal of harm if they choose to hurt a business or school by spreading stories. The post one or two before this is a good example. The author didn’t even get the terminology right and the person who posted it still believed the kids story. But anyway it looks like it has been in circulation for over 10 years so it isn’t that important anyway, but it is a good example.
lol. You're setting me up with that one there. I'll tell you what the worst of the worst is if that's what you're wondering (but then again this is just my opinion). I'd have to say Judge Rotenberg center would be high up there along with the WWASP facilities and the Pathway Family Centers.
I don't do "this is good" I do "this is bad". It's a useful counterbalance to the marketing. It's a practice that, while seemingly distasteful or overly negative actually serves a quite useful function (as you put it, consequences). If the government can't and/or won't do it, private citizens and watchdogs must (I prefer it that way. I've rarely ever seen the government get much of anything right.)
I was getting set up myself so I thought I would spread the happiness. The last thing we want is more government interference. Gitmo is a good example. Do you think they are forth coming and honest about how the people are treated? Do they follow their own polices? Do you think they care how other people, schools, would conduct themselves? :karma:
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How about testimony at the GAO hearings. A sworn statement corroborating the above good enough for you? (not the same source either):
http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2008 ... awford.pdf (http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2008-04-24-JonMartinCrawford.pdf)
There are video clips on youtube as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A)
A news article here (of which there are many more):
http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=817660 (http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=817660)
SPFT (a bunch of guys from Denmark who also manage the Fornits wiki) are not native English speakers. They recently referred to suicides in program as "necktie parties":
http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php? ... 36#p323091 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&p=323136#p323091)
Whether they refer to students as "detainees" or not is irrelevant. The details in the statement from Brendan Burns are corroborated by those of Jon Martin Crawford. The GAO also investigated his claims independently.
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Yes. The school does not refer to its detainees as detainees it uses the euphanism "student." SPFT uses the english term that appropriately descibes the captives situation, not the Orwellian newspeak that you, and FFS, as a cult and dealer in human bodies respectively prefer.
SPFT links to "articles" and sworned testimony before congree
Here is testimony of the same before congress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A)
http://www.nospank.net/szlvtz7.htm (http://www.nospank.net/szlvtz7.htm)
http://www.newpaltz.edu/oracle/article.cfm?id=3317 (http://www.newpaltz.edu/oracle/article.cfm?id=3317)
http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... my_Johnson (http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Amy_Johnson)
http://www.isaccorp.org/thayer/maia-sza ... 04.08.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/thayer/maia-szalavitz.05.04.08.html)
As an edcon who is seeminly unaware of this, you are not doing a great job of keeping educated about the private prisons you "research" and refer to. What is your name and where is your site? I mean, reputable professionals don't keep their identity hidden to prevent inquiry into their "sucess" level. Do you?
I have been here way too long . This is addicting.
Look who ever you are. If you really think they are a cult and dealer in human bodies and pretend the word student is foriegn you have a screw loose. If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others. Your what my brother terms a waco.
You really think I would give you my website? or any other information?
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I talk to the parents first before the enter any of the sites or reading I recommend. I wasn’t implying reputable, just safe, as far as their identity goes. Fornits is probably safe enough but I don’t recommend parents to make posts, I have them visit to read certain threads.
I don't mean to be accusatory, but you didn't talk to Marcy before you referred her there, now did you? Yes, fornits is safe identity-wise (at least peopel's identities are safe unless they decide to share that voluntarily, which is stupid). There are no exceptions to this rule. Barring a court order, anonymity is absolute. On the other hand, it is an unmoderated forum (with the exception of "Facilities Questions and Answers" so it can be very harsh at times. There are a lot of bitter posters here (and with reason).
Well. What about Family Foundation. You mentioned that and i'm familiar with it and would endorse it as a good program. Are you aware of the allegations against it? I am aware of their response, but i've heard "we don't do that anymore" far too many times to take it seriously. Is it worth taking the risk. Have you spoken to kids who have been in FFS with critical viewpoints? Asked questions? Asked what to look for?
I am aware of the problems they have had over the years, but they have had tremendous success. I know a few people can do a great deal of harm if they choose to hurt a business or school by spreading stories. The post one or two before this is a good example. The author didn’t even get the terminology right and the person who posted it still believed the kids story. But anyway it looks like it has been in circulation for over 10 years so it isn’t that important anyway, but it is a good example.
Well. You seemed to be unaware of the congressional testimony of Jon Martin Crawford. It's not a small thing when the GAO cites a program (they DO investigate allegations independently as they don't want to end up with egg on their faces). Did you watch the GAO hearings? The first one? The second one?
I was getting set up myself so I thought I would spread the happiness. The last thing we want is more government interference. Gitmo is a good example. Do you think they are forth coming and honest about how the people are treated? Do they follow their own polices? Do you think they care how other people, schools, would conduct themselves? :karma:
Of course they don't care, unless it's politically useful to care. I'm more in favor of public education than government control. I feel that regulation on this industry is likely to be so badly botched by the government that it will give parents little more than a false sense of security. Straight was endorsed by the government. It was licensed and it didn't do that program any good. Peninsula Village is licensed, and i've heard a lot of horror stories out of there. I'm in the minority here, though. Most feel regulation is the solution. I'm terrified of it, frankly, for the reasons I mentioned and more.
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I have been here way too long . This is addicting.
Yes. You're powerless and fornits is a progressive disease *swings pocketwatch watch slowly* :seg:
Look who ever you are. If you really think they are a cult and dealer in human bodies and pretend the word student is foriegn you have a screw loose. If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others. Your what my brother terms a waco.
You really think I would give you my website? or any other information?
The youtube account he cited was the same that I did. It's a US government account (they use Youtube as well). As for the testimony I cited, it's on a USG website as well. That was sworn testimony before congress about FFS corroborating those other allegations (which were also investigated by the GAO). What more do you want?
Now I might not have much respect for the goverment getting stuff done, but the GAO did do a fantastic job on their investigation (if you've read their reports or watched the hearings). I attended the first hearing. What you don't see is whenever the camera is off Jan Moss (NATSAP), her lawyers are whispering in her ear (this was quite entertaining to watch).
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I don't mean to be accusatory, but you didn't talk to Marcy before you referred her there, now did you? Yes, fornits is safe identity-wise (at least peopel's identities are safe unless they decide to share that voluntarily, which is stupid). There are no exceptions to this rule. Barring a court order, anonymity is absolute. On the other hand, it is an moderated forum (with the exception of "Facilities Questions and Answers" so it can be very harsh at times. There are a lot of bitter posters here (and with reason).
No I didn’t, but she was already here on fornits and I didn’t want to bring it up in the post. Dont remember why. But I typically do.
Well. You seemed to be unaware of the congressional testimony of Jon Martin Crawford. It's not a small thing when the GAO cites a program (they DO investigate allegations independently as they don't want to end up with egg on their faces). Did you watch the GAO hearings? The first one? The second one?
Of course they don't care, unless it's politically useful to care. I'm more in favor of public education than government control. I feel that regulation on this industry is likely to be so badly botched by the government that it will give parents little more than a false sense of security. Straight was endorsed by the government. It was licensed and it didn't do that program any good. Peninsula Village is licensed, and i've heard a lot of horror stories out of there. I'm in the minority here, though. Most feel regulation is the solution. I'm terrified of it, frankly, for the reasons I mentioned and more.
I watched the first hearing, a couple of times. The other allegations I have read about or have had discussed with me second hand.
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Well. What do you think now about FFS (you might want to read Jon Martin's testimony first and compare it to the other before responding).
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I have been here way too long . This is addicting.
Yes. You're powerless and fornits is a progressive disease *swings pocketwatch watch slowly* :seg:
LOL, I am beginning to believe you.
Look who ever you are. If you really think they are a cult and dealer in human bodies and pretend the word student is foriegn you have a screw loose. If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others. Your what my brother terms a waco.
You really think I would give you my website? or any other information?
The youtube account he cited was the same that I did. It's a US government account (they use Youtube as well). As for the testimony I cited, it's on a USG website as well. That was sworn testimony before congress about FFS corroborating those other allegations (which were also investigated by the GAO). What more do you want?
Now I might not have much respect for the goverment getting stuff done, but the GAO did do a fantastic job on their investigation (if you've read their reports or watched the hearings). I attended the first hearing. What you don't see is whenever the camera is off Jan Moss (NATSAP), her lawyers are whispering in her ear (this was quite entertaining to watch).
You attended the first hearing? I have met Jan Moss a couple of times. She is very competent. I am not quite anonymous on this site so I cannot comment further without hurting some people.
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What's funny is that Obama already won yet here we are on this thread, and apparently way off topic, to boot.
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Well. What do you think now about FFS (you might want to read Jon Martin's testimony first and compare it to the other before responding).
I think FFS has done a good job getting past this. Have you read FFS's response(s)? I have read both and visited the school and spoken to graduates. They responded well.
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Well. What do you think now about FFS (you might want to read Jon Martin's testimony first and compare it to the other before responding).
I think FFS has done a good job getting past this. Have you read FFS's response(s)? I have read both and visited the school and spoken to graduates. They responded well.
Yes. I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock. "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.
What questions did you ask their graduates, specifically? Who referred you to those graduates (did the program suggest them, or did you find them)? Did you speak to critics such as Jon Martin?
Interview anybody on this myspace group of former FFS students?
http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fus ... =100103584 (http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=100103584)
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Just to put things in perspective: If somebody was convicted of or admitted to child abuse. Would you trust your child with them if they said "we don't do that anymore"? If they're low enough to stoop to child abuse, you really think they're above lying about it?
Come on. Would you feel comfortable sending your child there? Would you feel comfortable about the cut in communication then? We're not talking mild stuff here either. We're talking duct tape, kids wrapped in rugs, sexual stuff, etc... Think about it. It's OK to say you messed up.
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Well. What do you think now about FFS (you might want to read Jon Martin's testimony first and compare it to the other before responding).
I think FFS has done a good job getting past this. Have you read FFS's response(s)? I have read both and visited the school and spoken to graduates. They responded well.
Yes. I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock. "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.
What questions did you ask their graduates, specifically? Who referred you to those graduates (did the program suggest them, or did you find them)? Did you speak to critics such as Jon Martin?
Interview anybody on this myspace group of former FFS students?
http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fus ... =100103584 (http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=100103584)
In light of some the things described in that afore-posted testimony, did you speak with graduates while they were at the school, or away, and if the latter, how long had it been since they had graduated?
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FemanonFatal, I am sorry to hear what you have gone thru. I can honestly tell you that I have never experienced that with anyone I have spoken to and maybe it is because I read extensively on schools, articles and fornits and have avoided places with a high risk associated with it.
I believe that abuse exists but I also believe that it is not systemic nor ingrained in the industry.
I believe regulation is on its way which will help weed out some of the wicked places which exist in all businesses, but unfortunately we are years away at best. Hopefully we can avoid sending kids to these places by raising awareness via getting the word out and talking about everyones experiences.
Ok, if what you are saying here is true, and I took the time to gather people you could speak to about these schools (both those who had bad and good experiences) would you consider our findings, and agree not to recommend the schools which we proved to be abusive? lets say, we did a survey, where we had at least 4 people that went to every WWASP school (or maybe Aspen) 2 of which expressed that they were grateful for their experience and 2 that were not satisfied and we asked them all the same exact questions. Based on their answers if there was a unanimous agreement that psychological and physical abuse existed and there were significant amounts of human rights violations "ingrained in the industry" would you stop referring to WWASP schools? futhermore would you require any school that you did recommend to essentially pass this test "with flying colors" before you would recommend it?
What I dont understand is why it is not in the job description of an Ed Con to do these kinds of investigations on a school before you put more children in danger. To tell you the truth, I am convinced that MANY of the schools that make up the troubled teen industry are corrupt and operate outside the boundries of the law and common ethics. I am not completely opposed to the idea that there are a few "good" programs but in my experience, since most of them are closely connected and created from similar program models and principals that those "good" schools are so few and far between that it would be a dangerous business to get into rerring programs. The only way I would consider a referral service to be doing their job is if their services were contingent on a rigorous investigation, a regulation (child protection) contract, and would need to employ ex-survivors who are against the abusive programs who are keen and able to spot the evidence of abuse and oppression. For instance, you need to provide that school with a contract that states that every student should be allowed to access a phone that will dial 911 or child protective services and or if they request private counsel they will be abliged that right indefinately. You will also need to find a way to enforce it, being that you should be in touch with the local law enforcement and district attorney and they need to be aware that this school is under regulation and requires their services to ensure that these children's rights are being protected. You also need to have surprise drop ins and access to have PRIVATE meetings with students OF ALL LEVELS and ask them very specific questions. I know this all sounds like a big job, but honestly it what you people SHOULD be doing in order to make SURE the kids in the schools you recommend are NOT being abused. I advise you to get a bunch of your Ed con buddies together and talk about what you really need to be doing to ensure the safety of the children you are referring, otherwise if I were you, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
To tell you the truth, you people really should be on our side. We arent lying to you and you should heed our stories as warnings of what schools you need to avoid at all costs. If you people can grow the balls to take a stand against the evil you know exist in this industry then it will seize to exist because they wont have anyone to fill their schools. You people are really the key to saving these kids lives and rewarding the few programs that really are doing something right. If you and your people are willing to do something like this, let us know because I assure you that we will work WITH you to help you to weed out those programs you must stand against. I think if we all put our heads together we could write you a detailed list of the things in the programs that work and dont work and if you can find a school that employs more "working" practices then "non-working" practices then you will have found your winners.
Another thing, that bill to end institutionalized child abuse will make very little difference if YOU don't enforce it. The main problem is that unless there is a committee that is dedicated to physically regulating the programs on behalf of our government that piece of paper will make no difference besides giving parents a false sense of security.
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Yes. I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock. "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.
I have been exposed to a little more than that. I have seen the detailed changes that took place from the top down. They have made many procedural changes since then.
What questions did you ask their graduates, specifically? Who referred you to those graduates (did the program suggest them, or did you find them)? Did you speak to critics such as Jon Martin?
Some of them I knew going in and I had the pleasure of speaking to a few students after graduation. I don’t remember the exact questions.
Interview anybody on this myspace group of former FFS students?
I didn’t recognize any of the names or faces.
Just to put things in perspective: If somebody was convicted of or admitted to child abuse. Would you trust your child with them if they said "we don't do that anymore"? If they're low enough to stoop to child abuse, you really think they're above lying about it?
Come on. Would you feel comfortable sending your child there? Would you feel comfortable about the cut in communication then? We're not talking mild stuff here either. We're talking duct tape, kids wrapped in rugs, sexual stuff, etc... Think about it. It's OK to say you messed up.
On the surface I would not. But knowing what I do about the changes made, the amount of time that has passed to allow a cultural change to take effect I would easily allow a loved one to go. I take it from your tone that you do not trust that any changes have taken place. You have to consider that this was a long time ago (mid to late ‘90’s). A cultural change takes only a few years to take hold.
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Yes. I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock. "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.
I have been exposed to a little more than that. I have seen the detailed changes that took place from the top down. They have made many procedural changes since then.
Such as? You know this first hand?
You know this from detailed questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?
But knowing what I do about the changes made, the amount of time that has passed to allow a cultural change to take effect I would easily allow a loved one to go. I take it from your tone that you do not trust that any changes have taken place. You have to consider that this was a long time ago (mid to late ‘90’s). A cultural change takes only a few years to take hold.
When did they claim these cultural changes started?
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Yes. I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock. "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.
I have been exposed to a little more than that. I have seen the detailed changes that took place from the top down. They have made many procedural changes since then.
Such as? You know this first hand?
You know this from detailed questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?
But knowing what I do about the changes made, the amount of time that has passed to allow a cultural change to take effect I would easily allow a loved one to go. I take it from your tone that you do not trust that any changes have taken place. You have to consider that this was a long time ago (mid to late ‘90’s). A cultural change takes only a few years to take hold.
When did they claim these cultural changes started?
Myself and others review information as a team. I dont recall the timelines and detail, but there was a great amount of work done by FFS to address all the open items and problems they had experienced in the past. It would be difficult to sort thru the information and present it and I am not sure if I would be allowed to on an open web site. I'll probably get my ass chewed, as it is, tomorrow.
My brain is a little fried and sleep deprived and I have not been very productive today.
Not one referral!! ...... Only kidding.
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Myself and others review information as a team. I dont recall the timelines and detail, but there was a great amount of work done by FFS to address all the open items and problems they had experienced in the past. It would be difficult to sort thru the information and present it and I am not sure if I would be allowed to on an open web site.
Well. If you can't answer the timeline in detail can you answer whether the information was directly from FFS or was it confirmed by secondary sources as I suggested (questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?).
I'll probably get my ass chewed, as it is, tomorrow.
My brain is a little fried and sleep deprived and I have not been very productive today.
Not one referral!! ...... Only kidding.
I'm somewhat surprised more educational consultants haven't posted on this site more. It's unmoderated and anonymous after all. I know lots read this site but why more don't post is a mystery.
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Well. If you can't answer the timeline in detail can you answer whether the information was directly from FFS or was it confirmed by secondary sources as I suggested (questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?).
Someone in our organization works directly with the schools. They visit the schools to verify in person when important changes have been made. Some schools have like a press conference where many are invited. I have spoken mostly to recent graduates and I follow up after time expires (6 months,year etc.) although I don’t recall specifically from FFS any contact a year or later out because I have not had many there.
I'm somewhat surprised more educational consultants haven't posted on this site more. It's unmoderated and anonymous after all. I know lots read this site but why more don't post is a mystery.
I am not sure why I am posting here. Just had a question or two I guess or a need to respond. I have always read here off and on to gather information on different places. You guys are always on top of problems surfacing in programs and many times are talking about it before we get a memo or email. It can be very draining posting here if you get a hostile group that goes after you as I have seen in the past.
One question I get the most from parents is why you refer to the schools as prisons and gulags with prison guards, abductions and detainees. On one hand the posters are screaming to be taken seriously and heard but on the other these terms turn the stories into a parody which is saying “Dont take us too seriously we are blowing off steam”. That has always been a big curiosity with me also. I don’t have an answer for them except it is just kids acting out their frustration. The anger is real but the stories may not be. So I tell them not to take the details literally.
Another surprise is that many here never heard about being emancipated. There is a lot of talk about kids should have the same rights as prisoners and getting a lawyer. Not sure where all that comes from. Seems to be a recurring theme.
I still need to respond to FemanonFatal (I like your name). I am getting tired but I will respond eventually.
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Well. If you can't answer the timeline in detail can you answer whether the information was directly from FFS or was it confirmed by secondary sources as I suggested (questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?).
Someone in our organization works directly with the schools. They visit the schools to verify in person when important changes have been made.
Well. The red cross verified the Jews were treated just dandy in Terezin (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_camp#Used_as_propaganda_tool). If it's possible to cover that up... I've seen first hand programs put up similar chirades for outsiders (parents on tours, etc). I can describe you in great detail exactly how the con is pulled (and chances are, unless you know exactly what to look for, you'll be taken in)
Some schools have like a press conference where many are invited. I have spoken mostly to recent graduates and I follow up after time expires (6 months,year etc.) although I don’t recall specifically from FFS any contact a year or later out because I have not had many there.
Out of those you did speak to, did you ask about the specific allegations by Jon Martin and others. Keep in mind as i've said, that many kids will see the most horrific abuse as "therapy" (or at the very least, necessary) if they have no other concept of "therapy". This has been the case with the most abusive programs (such as WWASP or Straight). You must ask specific questions if you want to get to the truth.
How many said "the program saved my life"?
I am not sure why I am posting here. Just had a question or two I guess or a need to respond. I have always read here off and on to gather information on different places. You guys are always on top of problems surfacing in programs and many times are talking about it before we get a memo or email. It can be very draining posting here if you get a hostile group that goes after you as I have seen in the past.
That is very true.
One question I get the most from parents is why you refer to the schools as prisons and gulags with prison guards, abductions and detainees.
The theory is to stop using euphemisms. I don't particularly agree since it does sound extreme to parents, but who am I to judge. This site isn't just for parents. It's for anybody to have an open discussion on this issue. There are other sites more oriented towards parents (such as isaccorp.org).
The term "Gulag" is not used in ignorance either. If you've seen the amazon book bar that appears occasionally at the top of the screen, "The Gulag Archipelago" is in the rotation. Many here see parallels between the troubled teen industry and the Gulag system (imprisonment without trial for arbitrary reasons, forced confessions, no right to legal representation, arbitrary length of stay, no communication with the outside world, imprisonment for profit or personal agenda, etc...).
Similarly, the other terms are meant to more accurately describe the "program experience". It does sound extreme, but there are sound reasons behind it.
On one hand the posters are screaming to be taken seriously and heard but on the other these terms turn the stories into a parody which is saying “Dont take us too seriously we are blowing off steam”. That has always been a big curiosity with me also. I don’t have an answer for them except it is just kids acting out their frustration. The anger is real but the stories may not be. So I tell them not to take the details literally.
But often the stories are real. While they might sound absurd or angry, the details are often corroborated by others. As you, yourself, said, this site is often on top of things when it comes to spotting abuses. While we're certainly not infallible, many of us have been in abusive programs and know what to look for.
Another surprise is that many here never heard about being emancipated. There is a lot of talk about kids should have the same rights as prisoners and getting a lawyer. Not sure where all that comes from. Seems to be a recurring theme.
Well. The idea being that kids are human beings and not property. Many feel that if kids were given legal rights to due process or representation, they would not be totally in the hands of their parents who may very well be over-reacting, taken advantage of, conned, or abusive.
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A few things I wanted to add here based on your replies as of late.
So what you have stated is that because a site uses words that make it apparent that they are not in support of child imprisonment that automatically means they are un-reputable? That is EXACTLY like saying, say you are a republican ::) that all websites that are clearly democratic and furthermore anyone representing democratic views is un-reputable. Essentially we are the Republicans and Democrats of the Troubled Teen Industry issue, and just because one group takes a different stance on the issue does not automatically make them un-reputable. What I find so troubling with your opinion here is that these are people who have LIVED through these experiences, these are their stories about most likely the most trying times in their lives and you completely discredit them right off the bat just because the grammar on the websites indicates that the authors disagree with your stance on the issue. So basically, when I tell you that I was starved, beaten, burned, and almost murdered via drowning in mud in High Impact that statement has no relevance to you because I posted in on Fornits which happens to be an Anti-program website? I really suggest you rethink your logic here because its very skewed, and in a very ignorant direction I might add.
Another thing is you mentioned that you have spoken to graduates and they give you good responses. I can believe this statement as true, but what I'm wondering is if you have spoken to this graduates 6 months, a year or years later. Or if you keep contact with their parents on their progress. I'm curious to hear first hand what these program graduates have to say now that they have had time to deprogram. I would actually prefer to speak to them myself, I know you probably wont give out that information but I hope, if you even do consent to participate in a survey that you will ask those people to answer a few questions.
Another thing is that you make accusations that our language suggests we are making things up or exaggerating. I can understand from an uninformed point of view or that of a person who didnt directly experience these things that you would assume so but what you don't understand is that we have significant evidence that these terms are well validated. Ill be specific, when we say "detainee" instead of "student" we are referring to the point that kids in these programs are most ALWAYS held against their will unable to leave at any time nor make any requests to leave, as well most times are not even involved with the decision to be detained in these schools and futhermore without due process of the law nor a without going through a 3rd party admissions process. Another phrase I use is "private prison" and that is because for the reasons stated above and when the only requirement to have your child held against their will is $2,000 a month, that statement remains valid. Especially when calling these facilities a school is WAY off base given that some facilities have a limited to non-existant education program. Of course this is coming from experience as usual, because I was not permitted to get an education in Casa By the Sea and High Impact did not have any education program. So you can assume from this point on that when we make statements like this it is because from our experience these terms are COMPLETELY relevant.
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So basically, when I tell you that I was starved, beaten, burned, and almost murdered via drowning in mud in High Impact that statement has no relevance to you because I posted in on Fornits which happens to be an Anti-program website? I really suggest you rethink your logic here because its very skewed, and in a very ignorant direction I might add.
:nods: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :beat: :beat: :beat: :tup: :tup:
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A few things I wanted to add here based on your replies as of late.
So what you have stated is that because a site uses words that make it apparent that they are not in support of child imprisonment that automatically means they are un-reputable? That is EXACTLY like saying, say you are a republican ::) that all websites that are clearly democratic and furthermore anyone representing democratic views is un-reputable. Essentially we are the Republicans and Democrats of the Troubled Teen Industry issue, and just because one group takes a different stance on the issue does not automatically make them un-reputable. What I find so troubling with your opinion here is that these are people who have LIVED through these experiences, these are their stories about most likely the most trying times in their lives and you completely discredit them right off the bat just because the grammar on the websites indicates that the authors disagree with your stance on the issue. So basically, when I tell you that I was starved, beaten, burned, and almost murdered via drowning in mud in High Impact that statement has no relevance to you because I posted in on Fornits which happens to be an Anti-program website? I really suggest you rethink your logic here because its very skewed, and in a very ignorant direction I might add.
Another thing is you mentioned that you have spoken to graduates and they give you good responses. I can believe this statement as true, but what I'm wondering is if you have spoken to this graduates 6 months, a year or years later. Or if you keep contact with their parents on their progress. I'm curious to hear first hand what these program graduates have to say now that they have had time to deprogram. I would actually prefer to speak to them myself, I know you probably wont give out that information but I hope, if you even do consent to participate in a survey that you will ask those people to answer a few questions.
Another thing is that you make accusations that our language suggests we are making things up or exaggerating. I can understand from an uninformed point of view or that of a person who didnt directly experience these things that you would assume so but what you don't understand is that we have significant evidence that these terms are well validated. Ill be specific, when we say "detainee" instead of "student" we are referring to the point that kids in these programs are most ALWAYS held against their will unable to leave at any time nor make any requests to leave, as well most times are not even involved with the decision to be detained in these schools and futhermore without due process of the law nor a without going through a 3rd party admissions process. Another phrase I use is "private prison" and that is because for the reasons stated above and when the only requirement to have your child held against their will is $2,000 a month, that statement remains valid. Especially when calling these facilities a school is WAY off base given that some facilities have a limited to non-existant education program. Of course this is coming from experience as usual, because I was not permitted to get an education in Casa By the Sea and High Impact did not have any education program. So you can assume from this point on that when we make statements like this it is because from our experience these terms are COMPLETELY relevant.
I slept so good last night. Reading and writting all day on the computer wiped me out!
I guess I didnt communicate very well yesterday. I often ask parents to visit fornits and to read specific threads about some of the schools they are interested in or have asked me about. I would say the majority of them come back to me with comments . It is hard to explain and I don’t want to be insulting towards anyone. But let me try to explain.
My oldest daughter would come home from school with her friends and tell me she was in detention that day and the conversation would go a little like this.... “Oh, my, God you would not believe what a prison that place is!!! Mrs. Devlin didnt let us have anything to eat the whole time. I was starving and she would not even let mary Ellen leave the room for a drink of water. I think she was suffering from dehydration and the Nazi didnt even care......When dad gets home I am going to talk to him about suing the school for abuse.
What you dont understand is that almost every parent has heard this drama. Now no offense but if you say you were in a gulag with prison guards and kidnapped in the middle of the night and detained against your will, tortured, placed in isolation(and then I will add your sentence) was starved, beaten, burned, and almost murdered via drowning in mud in High Impact. Would most people reading this run to the phone and call the police? I dont think so. Is it believable? Not really. You probably sustained a great deal of discomfort while there but it is hard to believe staff people were beating you, burning you with cigarettes or fire and holding your head under water until you almost drowned and becoming malnurished to the point of death. I am sure someone would have noticed, unless they just fatten everyone up just before graduation. You can only cover up so much with clothing. You may think that we are not very smart (and you might be right LOL) but we are not that gullible.
Now I am more familiar with the industry than most parents so I know that abuse has and does occur in some of these schools, but parents reading the above story just come away with paaaalease!!! Take away the drama!!!! I cant read anymore. Personally I prefer the drama because it is a piece of the reading that I suggest to parents and sparks great discussion about what their child will and will not be exposed to during their time in a program. Fornits reading promotes more discussion than say a WWASP web site does and getting parents to start talking about their concerns is a big step to finding a solution. So everything serves a purpose.
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I am not saying that the way you communicate is wrong. I understand it serves its purpose and young people have their own way to communicate. My parents were just as mystified when I described events also. You are not writing this to serve the parents so dont take the above post as asking you to change. As an example I was in line checking out my groceries and the bagger and cashier were in a conversation and after each of them spoke the other would say “Shut up”!!. So they would speak and say shut up, speak and say “Shut up” it was funny to watch. I can understand how foreign I must have been to my parents now.
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Would most people reading this run to the phone and call the police? I dont think so. Is it believable? Not really. You probably sustained a great deal of discomfort while there but it is hard to believe staff people were beating you, burning you with cigarettes or fire and holding your head under water until you almost drowned and becoming malnurished to the point of death. I am sure someone would have noticed, unless they just fatten everyone up just before graduation. You can only cover up so much with clothing. You may think that we are not very smart (and you might be right LOL) but we are not that gullible.
Keep telling yourself that....
No, these sorts of things could never happen here, not in America..... ::)
An example of how a program hid things from parents: remove bruised kids from the Open Meetings, claiming they were "misbehaving and disrupting the group." How convenient, eh? Oh no, but a thing like that isn't likely to happen in such a reputable nation as this, is it?
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Would most people reading this run to the phone and call the police? I dont think so. Is it believable? Not really. You probably sustained a great deal of discomfort while there but it is hard to believe staff people were beating you, burning you with cigarettes or fire and holding your head under water until you almost drowned and becoming malnurished to the point of death. I am sure someone would have noticed, unless they just fatten everyone up just before graduation. You can only cover up so much with clothing. You may think that we are not very smart (and you might be right LOL) but we are not that gullible.
Keep telling yourself that....
No, these sorts of things could never happen here, not in America..... ::)
An example of how a program hid things from parents: remove bruised kids from the Open Meetings, claiming they were "misbehaving and disrupting the group." How convenient, eh? Oh no, but a thing like that isn't likely to happen in such a reputable nation as this, is it?
Have you seen isaccorp, HEAL, TBfight, Anti-wwasp, SPFT and the testimonies they provide from former captives of the Cultic-Gulags?
Even if you "don't like" these sites, they link to, or provide sworn statements about the systematic torture the captives expereienced.
If these testimonies were untrue the "liars" could easily be sued for fraud.(some of them have been, and all exonerated) These "liar's" stories were verified by an investigation by the U.S. senate, and in numerous(but not numerous enough) civil and criminal suits. What do you think about the numerous kids who have been beaten or starved to death in these environments? Why haven't you read any of the millions of articles about this subject?...Why are you denying the reality of something that as an "educational consultant" you should at least be aware of the existance of?
When you were first linked to testimony of abuse at the FF-cultic gulag, you stated the abuse described was clearly a fictional story and "lol'ed"
Only after footage of the congressional hearings and submitted sworn statements were twice linked to, did you acknowledge their accuracy. At that point you said you knew someone involved personally with the GAO personally.
So, why did you pretend the abuse described was ridiculous, clearly a "fictional story" when you "knew" that this treatment was systematic at FFS, if you indeed were aware of hearings as you claimed? Why the subterfuge?
What is your "team's" title?
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Only after footage of the congressional hearings and submitted sworn statements were twice linked to, did you acknowledge their accuracy. At that point you said you knew someone involved personally with the GAO personally.
She stated she knew Jan Moss. Jan moss, the (ex) president of NATSAP. She was the one at the hearings getting grilled by congressman Miller. Jan Moss is in no way involved with the GAO (unless you count being investigated by them, which is quite possible.)
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Kathy. You might want to research high impact before implying Femanon's story wan an exaggeration. High Impact that place in Mexico that was shut down by the Mexican authorities (which it takes quite a bit to upset)... You know. that one with the dog cages.
Oh that one?
Yes. That one.
Maybe an apology is in order. Would you prefer people sugar coat their experiences rather than describe them accurately? Whether you choose to believe such things can happen or not is irrelevant. They did, and such things are hardly limited to outside the United States. How much do you know about the death of Aaron Bacon, specifically the condition of his body when he died (what his weight was like, how many bruises, cuts, etc...). How much do you know about the Challenger series of wilderness programs? Western Samoa?
Yes. Actually, many programs have, more or less, "fattened kids up before graduation", whether you choose to believe that or not.
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You might have missed where I said:
Now I am more familiar with the industry than most parents so I know that abuse has and does occur in some of these schools,..............
But a parent not familiar with the industry will not believe any of your stories. Here, I have altered the testimony of Jon Martin to try and make the point:
After
being expelled from public school and one private school for marijuana and writing an
underground newspaper, my parents sent me to be detained as an inmate at The Gulag shortly thereafter. (Chairman Miller interrupts “Jon Martin… what place are you talking about?... “Oh it’s the Family center which is New York, it’s a private prison where kids are taken after they are kidnapped to be tortured…. Well okay Jon Martin continue ) Here, they
thought, after touring the prison and were satisfied the barbed wire would keep me in, I would get better, and be able to live a normal life
again. They thought this was the best thing they could be doing for me…for our family.
Once I arrived at The Gulag prison, I knew I was there until I was 18. I hated my parents at
that point and tried to leave, until three 6foot plus 250lb plus prison guards with night sticks and sun glasses …..Chairman Miller interrupts again and says “Mr. Kutz where did you get this witness? And what is he talking about? I thought you were going to present witnesses from residential programs. This boy is talking jiberish)
I have read fornits for some time now so I am use to the lingo, but I don’t think Chairman Miller would understand nor do parents that come here for the first time. They come across as fabricated stories to them which lack credibility and I don’t think that Chairman Miller would have allowed the witness to continue his testimony.
Why do you think this is?
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After reading or watching the boys’ accounts of abuse at The Family Foundation School, Kathy S., child-trafficker and murderer, said:
.Why would you believe this stuff to be fact?[..... ]You are very guillible my friend..]
If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others.
In so many words she says the 2 boys’ accounts are so ridiculous she laughs them off.
The next second, when you linked to the actual sworn statement of one boy’s account, it said :
I watched the first hearing, a couple of times. The other allegations I have read about or have had discussed with me second hand
So…why did the youth-torturer state the accounts she supposedly knew to be true were clearly fictional stories, at first?
Here’s my idea: the human trafficker tried to discredit accounts she knew were true to avoid bringing more negative attention to the Family foundation school and did that by playing to the “disreputable” nature of SPFT, YouTube, ISAC, CAFETY, NOSPANK, and the New Paltz Oracle Newspaper, and the idea the torture described was so intense as to be “absurd.”
But, after you linked directly to the actual sworn statement,
http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2008 (http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2008) ... awford.pdf such denial became impossible to engage in and maintain any sort of credibility.
Therefore, suddenly, she became totally aware of the abuse at the Family Foundation School, she had watched the GAO hearings, and the boys’ “fictional account” became true—but it was in the past.
Basically, this supposed “edcon” was engaging in the same con game the Cultic-Gulags and their representation always do:
1) The abuse accusations are absurd! (Repeat until successful prosecution)
2) The abuse accusations are true! But they’re in the past! (repeat after successful prosecution)
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I mostly agree with you that using such language (however accurate) does tend to leave parents wondering "are these people crazy?!?!", but it does not make the language any less descriptive or accurate. Personally, I tend to avoid describing things with such words and try to more or less simply state the facts. If a parents wants to interpret something as abusive, or torture, or kidnapping, or whatever, that's the parents choice. But that's just my approach, and as i've pointed out, this site isn't exactly a site for parents (there are others such as isaccorp for that). I have no authority to change people's words nor would I consider it appropriate to even suggest it (especially not publicly). It's rude.
On an unrelated note, how has business been recently? Has the economy affected things? The GAO hearings?
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You might have missed where I said:
Now I am more familiar with the industry than most parents so I know that abuse has and does occur in some of these schools,..............
But a parent not familiar with the industry will not believe any of your stories. Here, I have altered the testimony of Jon Martin to try and make the point:
After
being expelled from public school and one private school for marijuana and writing an
underground newspaper, my parents sent me to be detained as an inmate at The Gulag shortly thereafter. (Chairman Miller interrupts “Jon Martin… what place are you talking about?... “Oh it’s the Family center which is New York, it’s a private prison where kids are taken after they are kidnapped to be tortured…. Well okay Jon Martin continue ) Here, they
thought, after touring the prison and were satisfied the barbed wire would keep me in, I would get better, and be able to live a normal life
again. They thought this was the best thing they could be doing for me…for our family.
Once I arrived at The Gulag prison, I knew I was there until I was 18. I hated my parents at
that point and tried to leave, until three 6foot plus 250lb plus prison guards with night sticks and sun glasses …..Chairman Miller interrupts again and says “Mr. Kutz where did you get this witness? And what is he talking about? I thought you were going to present witnesses from residential programs. This boy is talking jiberish)
I have read fornits for some time now so I am use to the lingo, but I don’t think Chairman Miller would understand nor do parents that come here for the first time. They come across as fabricated stories to them which lack credibility and I don’t think that Chairman Miller would have allowed the witness to continue his testimony.
Why do you think this is?
But you supposedly knew Family Foundation School imprisoned and systematically abused their "students" so, "crazy lingo" or not, you pretended these accounts were clearly fictional stories when you knew better.
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Why don’t these survivors demand the administration of the Family Foundation Cultic Gulag be prosecuted for their implementation of systematic psychological torture, physical and sexual abuse and assault, and forced imprisonment, and a plethora of other charges, Psy, anoyone?
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I mostly agree with you that using such language (however accurate) does tend to leave parents wondering "are these people crazy?!?!", but it does not make the language any less descriptive or accurate. Personally, I tend to avoid describing things with such words and try to more or less simply state the facts. If a parents wants to interpret something as abusive, or torture, or kidnapping, or whatever, that's the parents choice. But that's just my approach, and as i've pointed out, this site isn't exactly a site for parents (there are others such as isaccorp for that). I have no authority to change people's words nor would I consider it appropriate to even suggest it (especially not publicly). It's rude.
On an unrelated note, how has business been recently? Has the economy affected things? The GAO hearings?
Yes, and I think I mentioned that I wasn’t looking to change the way people here speak. Ijust wanted to point out that parents and/or people who are not familiar with fornits are going to think the stories are fabricated or a lampoon. But I am sure none of that really matters the main thing is that you understand and communicate with each other within the forum.
The industry has been slow and downsizing to accommodate the economic crisis. But the demand for educational consultants has increase and I believe that is due to many fly-by-night companies who have not connected well with the schools and programs have dropped out of the business. So business is brisk. We didn’t see much effect from the GAO hearings. We expected a slight bump from just the awareness that residential treatment is available.
How did you like being at the GAO hearings? When I was younger I was invited to see Newt Gingrich as he was speaking on the governments role in protecting children and it was very powerful. Lots of energy in the room, it was a little overwhelming for me in a good way. But it was one of the turning points which made me want to help families and children, which I have been doing in one capacity or another ever since.
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Yes, and I think I mentioned that I wasn’t looking to change the way people here speak. Ijust wanted to point out that parents and/or people who are not familiar with fornits are going to think the stories are fabricated or a lampoon. But I am sure none of that really matters the main thing is that you understand and communicate with each other within the forum.
Well that's the thing. Most of the communication here is just "between us" and unless there is a known parent on the thread, such language tends to be used by many here. I think a lot here would be wise to take your advice on that. Just because you're the "enemy" doesn't mean you aren't giving sound advice when it comes to talking to parents (but again, not that this site is oriented towards parents... we have "ban this motherfucker" on the top of the screen and ads for Salvia Divinorum in the ad rotation).
The industry has been slow and downsizing to accommodate the economic crisis. But the demand for educational consultants has increase and I believe that is due to many fly-by-night companies who have not connected well with the schools and programs have dropped out of the business. So business is brisk. We didn’t see much effect from the GAO hearings. We expected a slight bump from just the awareness that residential treatment is available.
Well shit. Looks like we're going to have to work harder then. :seg:
How did you like being at the GAO hearings? When I was younger I was invited to see Newt Gingrich as he was speaking on the governments role in protecting children and it was very powerful. Lots of energy in the room, it was a little overwhelming for me in a good way. But it was one of the turning points which made me want to help families and children, which I have been doing in one capacity or another ever since.
The hearings were very emotional, especially Bob Bacon's testimony. It was a very moving experience. I loved how George Miller confronted Jan Moss, but then again, i realized at the same time it was just political grandstanding. It did bring a big silly grin to my face and if I remember I think I gave miller the thumbs up sign after he said "What the hell do you do, exactly".
But here's an interesting question here: You say you want to help families and children and have been doing that ever since. What if you were to discover one day that at least one of the programs you referred to were abusive, and at least one of the kids you referred were abused. Might that make you reconsider your career?
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If you really think they are a cult and dealer in human bodies and pretend the word student is foriegn you have a screw loose. If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others.[/quote}
Speaking of credibility, Kathy S, you don’t use “clinical studies” to prove abuse occurred.
Clinical studies are used to prove the safety and efficiency of therapies or drugs.
Pretty neat that no clinical studies are required that prove anything, before you and the family foundation school can start organizing the abduction, imprisonment and “treatment” of youth.
Why, you can shout “ooga booga” at a youth 3 times and report that as treatment and face no legal consequences for your fraudulent misrepresentation.
You can even torture kids, call that treatment, and face no legal repercussions. And for doing that, you get paid 6,000 per month.
Neat deal.
Finally, a way you can make money despite obviously having only fourth grade level of inference and education.
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KATHY. what is the name of your edcon service?
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Kathy, are you implying you don't know that youth are forcibly removed from their homes in the middle of the night by "escort services" also known as kidnapped?
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..... but again, not that this site is oriented towards parents... we have "ban this motherfucker" on the top of the screen and ads for Salvia Divinorum in the ad rotation).
Not sure what all that means. Salvia Divinorum sounds like the name of a nice catholic highschool.
But here's an interesting question here: You say you want to help families and children and have been doing that ever since. What if you were to discover one day that at least one of the programs you referred to were abusive, and at least one of the kids you referred were abused. Might that make you reconsider your career?
I may, if I felt I was not doing a good job or the kids were not getting the help they need. I would feel responsible if anything happened to the kids I am involved with. There are so many ways to help families and kids, I am not tied to this business. I have ideas of moving on. We (myself and a friend) have acquired some initial funding to purchase permanent housing for single mothers living in homeless shelters in Minneapolis. If we get the funding, which looks very good, I could be moving there as early as this spring. We are hoping to help single mothers re-emerge into the work force by providing housing, transportation, daycare and counselling free of charge. Our business plan has been approved by the city!! yeah !! But we will have to tap into federal funding along the way (at some point) to keep it afloat. Private funding tends to dry up once people feel they have made a difference or done enough. So we have our work cut out for us. I would still like to maintain this business, but we will see what happens.
But back to your question, if kids were getting hurt I may just work that much harder to find places that are safe for them instead of quiting but its hard to say. I could never stomach being responsible for a child being hurt, it meant I didnt do my research.
Not sure if I should respond to those other people. They seem a little hostile in their questioning.
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..... but again, not that this site is oriented towards parents... we have "ban this motherfucker" on the top of the screen and ads for Salvia Divinorum in the ad rotation).
Not sure what all that means. Salvia Divinorum sounds like the name of a nice catholic highschool.
LOL. It is, actually. You should start recommending it to parents! :roflmao: Though I have not personally gone to that particular school, some on this forum hold it in high regard.
We (myself and a friend) have acquired some initial funding to purchase permanent housing for single mothers living in homeless shelters in Minneapolis. If we get the funding, which looks very good, I could be moving there as early as this spring. We are hoping to help single mothers re-emerge into the work force by providing housing, transportation, daycare and counselling free of charge. Our business plan has been approved by the city!! yeah !! But we will have to tap into federal funding along the way (at some point) to keep it afloat. Private funding tends to dry up once people feel they have made a difference or done enough. So we have our work cut out for us. I would still like to maintain this business, but we will see what happens.
Well. That occupation sounds a whole lot more wholesome than your current one. I wish you luck with that shelter idea.
But back to your question, if kids were getting hurt I may just work that much harder to find places that are safe for them instead of quiting but its hard to say. I could never stomach being responsible for a child being hurt, it meant I didnt do my research.
But what if you did your research and the program still turned out to be bad (as has happened in the past. Lon Woodbury (not that I trust his competence or objectivity at all) gave rave reviews to a lot of programs that are now defunct. I now first hand how programs can put up chirades for visitors. It's often hardly a measure of the quality of a school, but on how well they present themselves. How long have you been an educational consultant?
Not sure if I should respond to those other people. They seem a little hostile in their questioning.
You have no obligation to. Personally, if people are hostile towards me I tend to ignore them (or address them calmly and see if the situation can be diffused).
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..... but again, not that this site is oriented towards parents... we have "ban this motherfucker" on the top of the screen and ads for Salvia Divinorum in the ad rotation).
Not sure what all that means. Salvia Divinorum sounds like the name of a nice catholic highschool.
LOL. It is, actually. You should start recommending it to parents! :roflmao: Though I have not personally gone to that particular school, some on this forum hold it in high regard.
I would just like to say that I went to this school and it was the most awesome inspiring life-changing time of my short life. If they had a program for young adult people I would definitely go back and do it all over again. I surely know that if it weren't for the caring and concern and the awesome inspiring life-changing help of all the counselors and teachers I am sure I would be dead insane or in jail. God bless all the wonderful people I have met as a result of the Immaculate Salvia Divinorum Academy. Thank you.
Galena
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Sorry Removed
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If that doesn't put things in perspective for her, I don't know what will.
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If that doesn't put things in perspective for her, I don't know what will.
Sad thing is it probably wont.
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But what if you did your research and the program still turned out to be bad (as has happened in the past. Lon Woodbury (not that I trust his competence or objectivity at all) gave rave reviews to a lot of programs that are now defunct. I now first hand how programs can put up chirades for visitors. It's often hardly a measure of the quality of a school, but on how well they present themselves. How long have you been an educational consultant?
If I felt I could not trust the industry as a whole I wouldn’t be doing this. If the kids were not getting any help or getting hurt I would stop and move on or fight to have changes made.
To Femanon Fatal:
Sorry you had to write that out again. But from a parents perspective and ones that are not familiar with fornits your story is moving and believable without gulag, detainee, prison etc. used as descriptive words .
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You might have missed where I said:
Now I am more familiar with the industry than most parents so I know that abuse has and does occur in some of these schools,..............
But a parent not familiar with the industry will not believe any of your stories. Here, I have altered the testimony of Jon Martin to try and make the point:
After
being expelled from public school and one private school for marijuana and writing an
underground newspaper, my parents sent me to be detained as an inmate at The Gulag shortly thereafter. (Chairman Miller interrupts “Jon Martin… what place are you talking about?... “Oh it’s the Family center which is New York, it’s a private prison where kids are taken after they are kidnapped to be tortured…. Well okay Jon Martin continue ) Here, they
thought, after touring the prison and were satisfied the barbed wire would keep me in, I would get better, and be able to live a normal life
again. They thought this was the best thing they could be doing for me…for our family.
Once I arrived at The Gulag prison, I knew I was there until I was 18. I hated my parents at
that point and tried to leave, until three 6foot plus 250lb plus prison guards with night sticks and sun glasses …..Chairman Miller interrupts again and says “Mr. Kutz where did you get this witness? And what is he talking about? I thought you were going to present witnesses from residential programs. This boy is talking jiberish)
I have read fornits for some time now so I am use to the lingo, but I don’t think Chairman Miller would understand nor do parents that come here for the first time. They come across as fabricated stories to them which lack credibility and I don’t think that Chairman Miller would have allowed the witness to continue his testimony.
Why do you think this is?
First off, don't ever misquote me, especially intentionally ever again. Second, how many graduates that left FFS more than 3 years ago have you talked to? I have received calls from both students and parents who have since pulled their children from FFS that tell me many of the things I testified to STILL happen. Just because you make a few extra dollars sending kids to a 60K a year brainwashing factory does NOT make it effective. Sure, while kids are there, it seems effective.....check the results in 4 or 5 years and you'll get diffrent results. If you have anything to say about me "fabricating a story" Have the nerve and the decency to actually say it to me directly. ALL of my contact info is on the CAFETY website at http://www.cafety.org (http://www.cafety.org) Just look up the board of directors info. Otherwise, don't try to use me, or my testimony in any of your b.s. diatribe on how FFS is good. It's a crock.
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First off, don't ever misquote me, especially intentionally ever again.
I made it clear the quote was altered to make a point. The point being that there are many ways to tell a story and some come across as credible and others do not. Both of them contain facts more or less. The key is to determine who your audience is. If you had spoken to the committee “the way I had written it” you would not have come across as clear as you did.
Second, how many graduates that left FFS more than 3 years ago have you talked to? I have received calls from both students and parents who have since pulled their children from FFS that tell me many of the things I testified to STILL happen.
There are several that I have spoken to that have graduated up to 2 years ago and 1 or maybe 2 greater than 2 years. They are doing well for the most part. I would say more than half are still in counselling to one degree or another.
Just because you make a few extra dollars sending kids to a 60K a year brainwashing factory does NOT make it effective.
Terms like “Brainwashing factory” is what I was talking about earlier. Why didn’t you use this language in front of chairman Miller? Because it is inaccurate? I don’t do this job solely for the money. It is a source of income but helping children is primary for me. If the results of my work were not favorable for the children I would not be doing it. There are plenty of ways to make money, I don’t own a yacht.
Sure, while kids are there, it seems effective.....check the results in 4 or 5 years and you'll get diffrent results. If you have anything to say about me "fabricating a story" Have the nerve and the decency to actually say it to me directly. ALL of my contact info is on the CAFETY website at http://www.cafety.org (http://www.cafety.org) Just look up the board of directors info. Otherwise, don't try to use me, or my testimony in any of your b.s. diatribe on how FFS is good. It's a crock.
I am sorry you feel this way. It seems you mis read my posts otherwise you would realize that I didn’t say you fabricated any stories. I was making a point in the power of choosing the right words for the intended audience. I understand why you are so negative towards programs.
Take Care Jon,
KathyS
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It's different this time because the Houston Police are involved.
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First off, don't ever misquote me, especially intentionally ever again.
I made it clear the quote was altered to make a point. The point being that there are many ways to tell a story and some come across as credible and others do not. Both of them contain facts more or less. The key is to determine who your audience is. If you had spoken to the committee “the way I had written it” you would not have come across as clear as you did.
Second, how many graduates that left FFS more than 3 years ago have you talked to? I have received calls from both students and parents who have since pulled their children from FFS that tell me many of the things I testified to STILL happen.
There are several that I have spoken to that have graduated up to 2 years ago and 1 or maybe 2 greater than 2 years. They are doing well for the most part. I would say more than half are still in counselling to one degree or another.
Just because you make a few extra dollars sending kids to a 60K a year brainwashing factory does NOT make it effective.
Terms like “Brainwashing factory” is what I was talking about earlier. Why didn’t you use this language in front of chairman Miller? Because it is inaccurate? I don’t do this job solely for the money. It is a source of income but helping children is primary for me. If the results of my work were not favorable for the children I would not be doing it. There are plenty of ways to make money, I don’t own a yacht.
Sure, while kids are there, it seems effective.....check the results in 4 or 5 years and you'll get diffrent results. If you have anything to say about me "fabricating a story" Have the nerve and the decency to actually say it to me directly. ALL of my contact info is on the CAFETY website at http://www.cafety.org (http://www.cafety.org) Just look up the board of directors info. Otherwise, don't try to use me, or my testimony in any of your b.s. diatribe on how FFS is good. It's a crock.
I am sorry you feel this way. It seems you mis read my posts otherwise you would realize that I didn’t say you fabricated any stories. I was making a point in the power of choosing the right words for the intended audience. I understand why you are so negative towards programs.
Take Care Jon,
KathyS
However you want to word it.....it STILL happens
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... iew&id=627 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=627)
Those are just the ones who were willing to go on record with Congress when they allowed us to compile more. And that is JUST from FFS. Just because FFS, parents, and kids that left within a year or two say things are better means nothing. Talk to students out more than say 5 years....its a totally different ballgame. Brainwashing and PTSD take YEARS to fully surface or become dealt with in these cases. It took me 10 to even really talk about it. When will you see that FFS is NOT a good place, and neither are any of these programs? Paul Geer at FFS talked with students about himself having sex with boys...how is that even remotely an appropriate thing for staff to do? He IS STILL THERE AS A MUSICAL DIRECTOR!!
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ILL bet hes 1st chair at the skin flute :rofl:
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If I felt I could not trust the industry as a whole I wouldn’t be doing this. If the kids were not getting any help or getting hurt I would stop and move on or fight to have changes made.
To Femanon Fatal:
Sorry you had to write that out again. But from a parents perspective and ones that are not familiar with fornits your story is moving and believable without gulag, detainee, prison etc. used as descriptive words .
Heres what I don't understand, You make statements that are supposed to lead us to believe that you have some semblance of a moral conscious, in that you say that if you did find out that the schools you refer to were to have caused more harm than good you would have nothing to do with the industry. What I don't understand is why the simple existence of at least one group of survivors strongly against these programs isn't enough for you to put 2 and 2 together. Look at it from an outsiders perspective. Why would a perfectly good industry have such a bad reputation and a group of dedicated activists standing against it?... If these programs did more good than harm don't you think we would all rather not waste our time fighting them? The only reason these schools are on our watch list is because more than a few survivors have come forward with stories of the similar abuse that we have seen time and time again. and unlike you our evidence comes from personal experience, not just a few phone calls you've had or program graduates you've heard the same brainwashed story from. Wake up and smell the coffee lady these places are unethical and the ends does not justify the means. I really think you need to do some soul searching, find out what is it about you that allows you to make these excuses for yourself and this industry.
Would you allow your daughter to go live and be completely controlled by a group of registered sex offenders? and willingly give up your child's right to contact you if they did something to her? Most often in essence (meaning they have physically and psychologically abused children in the past), however sometimes literally that is exactly what you are convincing these parents to do. How you are able to make these parents agree to such illogical things really boggles my mind but all I can assume is, its simply because are enough gullible and abusive parents out there that have no regard for their child's welfare if it means they are offered the chance to purge their child from their lives. You can roll your eyes and assume that's another exaggeration but I strongly believe that these parents, and YOUR actions speak much louder than words and if you actually loved and cared about these children this is the last thing you would find appropriate as treatment, especially given the massive amounts of evidence against these facilities.
I still want to know if you would be willing to propose that your "team" start doing the necessary investigations (and a collaborative survey) and require a certain amount of regulation before you will refer these schools. If you knew how much a difference in the protection of these children that simple policy change could make you would jump at the idea, however you didn't even bother to respond. Which tells me you are in support of the way these schools have abused children in the past and how they continue to do so today. If I had your job the first thing I would be concerned about if identifying the programs (and individuals) who have been accused of abuse and I would either take appropriate measures to ensure they are providing adequate protection (welfare and human rights as well) or avoid recommending those schools all together. I would also get as many Ed Con's on board with this important measure as possible. I would work with the survivors of the abusive programs in order to get a list of the things that need to be changed, I would consider this group of people as my allies not as the enemy. The fact that none of you have ever come to this conclusion only points out that you all have a dark side and you really don't have the welfare of the children you make your income off at heart.
If what I am assuming about your character isn't true than I beg you to prove me wrong. Take a stand and demand some changes because the Ed con's are really the ones who are responsible for the sustainability of this industry and if you don't stand for what is right, and continue to give business to the schools (or their umbrella company) that have a history of abuse you are ONLY soliciting the further abuse of children. You and your people need to realize this because you truly are responsible for hurting kids and their families but if you just had a little change of heart and some courage you could change all that.
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ILL bet hes 1st chair at the skin flute :rofl:
:notworthy: :rofl: :tup:
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Oh my, I might have an internet addiction. It has been interesting for me sharing instead of just reading here.
Heres what I don't understand, You make statements that are supposed to lead us to believe that you have some semblance of a moral conscious, in that you say that if you did find out that the schools you refer to were to have caused more harm than good you would have nothing to do with the industry.
If the industry causes more harm than good, femanon, I would change what I do. If a school or program did harm to the kids I would not refer them there.
What I don't understand is why the simple existence of at least one group of survivors strongly against these programs isn't enough for you to put 2 and 2 together. Look at it from an outsiders perspective. Why would a perfectly good industry have such a bad reputation and a group of dedicated activists standing against it?...
The mere existence of an anti program group, no matter how dedicated, doesn’t preclude that the programs are bad. There are groups on both sides of the abortions issue, are we to assume that since one side feels abortion is wrong we should remove the rights from woman who want to make their own choice?
If these programs did more good than harm don't you think we would all rather not waste our time fighting them? The only reason these schools are on our watch list is because more than a few survivors have come forward with stories of the similar abuse that we have seen time and time again. and unlike you our evidence comes from personal experience, not just a few phone calls you've had or program graduates you've heard the same brainwashed story from. Wake up and smell the coffee lady these places are unethical and the ends does not justify the means. I really think you need to do some soul searching, find out what is it about you that allows you to make these excuses for yourself and this industry.
I am not making any excuses for myself. If you were sitting where I am you would see how these schools have helped kids. From what I have read about you so far, you have based your opinion on just a few kids with bad experiences, I know that.
Would you allow your daughter to go live and be completely controlled by a group of registered sex offenders? and willingly give up your child's right to contact you if they did something to her?
No, I don’t think anyone would. Would you deny your daughter penicillin if you knew it were going to help her or aspirin to relieve some of the pain? These schools are not controlled by registered sex offenders, you have been mis informed.
Most often in essence (meaning they have physically and psychologically abused children in the past), however sometimes literally that is exactly what you are convincing these parents to do. How you are able to make these parents agree to such illogical things really boggles my mind but all I can assume is, its simply because are enough gullible and abusive parents out there that have no regard for their child's welfare if it means they are offered the chance to purge their child from their lives. You can roll your eyes and assume that's another exaggeration but I strongly believe that these parents, and YOUR actions speak much louder than words and if you actually loved and cared about these children this is the last thing you would find appropriate as treatment, especially given the massive amounts of evidence against these facilities.
I slowly realized that you have no idea what I do, do you? By reading the above paragraph I see you have convinced yourself all schools (and the parents who send them) are evil by building a fictitious wall of information around yourself based on prejudice and hatred. If my assessment is accurate and you really think that way you have a long way to go to have an open conversation with anyone, you are very biased and possibly closed minded on the topic of programs being helpful at all.
I still want to know if you would be willing to propose that your "team" start doing the necessary investigations (and a collaborative survey) and require a certain amount of regulation before you will refer these schools. If you knew how much a difference in the protection of these children that simple policy change could make you would jump at the idea, however you didn't even bother to respond. Which tells me you are in support of the way these schools have abused children in the past and how they continue to do so today. If I had your job the first thing I would be concerned about if identifying the programs (and individuals) who have been accused of abuse and I would either take appropriate measures to ensure they are providing adequate protection (welfare and human rights as well) or avoid recommending those schools all together. I would also get as many Ed Con's on board with this important measure as possible. I would work with the survivors of the abusive programs in order to get a list of the things that need to be changed, I would consider this group of people as my allies not as the enemy. The fact that none of you have ever come to this conclusion only points out that you all have a dark side and you really don't have the welfare of the children you make your income off at heart.
I wasnt really respnding to anyone except Michael (psy), I was ignoring everyone not just you. We do have teams which research the schools and we discuss which ones we should refer to and which not. On top of that I make my own judements not to refer to ones I believe to be ineffective or dangerous.
If what I am assuming about your character isn't true than I beg you to prove me wrong. Take a stand and demand some changes because the Ed con's are really the ones who are responsible for the sustainability of this industry and if you don't stand for what is right, and continue to give business to the schools (or their umbrella company) that have a history of abuse you are ONLY soliciting the further abuse of children. You and your people need to realize this because you truly are responsible for hurting kids and their families but if you just had a little change of heart and some courage you could change all that.
I really hate to sound condescending but I work to do the best for the child. You have assumed alot about me and I have given you the benefit of the doubt that you are a good person. If the child does not need help (in my opinion) or the parents haven’t done enough with local services I insist on it before I work with them. I have lost 3 positions because parents called to complain about me not providing them with a list of schools. I don’t scan for schools with the highest commission and then ship kids off. There are people, with similar thinking like yourself, who would march against abortion yet would not adopt a child in a million years or help to come up with a way to help pregnant mothers. Shutting down abortion clinics doesn’t help at all it just makes it more dangerous for the expectant mothers getting help in dark allies. This goes the same for programs.
Do you think Jon Martin-Crawford didn’t need help? He was calling in bomb threats to state and federal buildings! Do we just ignore that and say “Oh isn’t that cute, he will grow out of it, kids will be kids”. What happened to him should never happen to anyone. But just shutting down all the schools isnt a solution either. I work hard to prevent some kids from being placed and work hard to make sure kids end up in the right place. If we did it your way, none of the kids would get any help.
After you give it some thought I hope you see, femanon fatal, that working somewhere in the middle is the best solution, placing every kid or denying every kid isn’t.
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Wow, you guys really fell hook line and sinker for this one. Whoever they are, they obviously have more insight into the mind of fornits dwellers. Who would of guessed that survivors would want to have lengthy conversations that go nowhere with an edcon? Maybe I can find a jewish holocaust survivor board where they want to talk to nazis. Pathetic. The "repleacement parent" troll theWho perfected is still alive and well I can see.
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The mere existence of an anti program group, no matter how dedicated, doesn’t preclude that the programs are bad. There are groups on both sides of the abortions issue, are we to assume that since one side feels abortion is wrong we should remove the rights from woman who want to make their own choice? There are people, with similar thinking like yourself, who would march against abortion yet would not adopt a child in a million years or help to come up with a way to help pregnant mothers. Shutting down abortion clinics doesn’t help at all it just makes it more dangerous for the expectant mothers getting help in dark allies.
I find it funny you would make that analogy, because we are the people who would be standing on the pro-choice side of the fence, Hence our focus on protecting the RIGHTS of these children as American citizens. And even funnier is that you don't realize the people that run these programs are the ones who would be on the "anti-abortion" side of the fence. And just to let you know, not only would I adopt, I plan to at the point where I am financially capable of doing so. I also have in the past and plan to again volunteer at a women and children's center. and what you might also not know is that I am pursuing my degree in social work and plan to work with struggling teens. I believe your assumptions of me, as well as every other survivor are WAY off base. But in answer to your question, I really do believe that the existence of an activist group against a certain industry or specific company should be enough for you to question what you think you know about these facilities. Its honestly surprising to me that after all the trouble Psy and I and a few others on this site have gone through to spoon feed you this information that you continue to insult us and attempt to discredit us in everything we say. I guess we too gave you the benefit of the doubt that you might be a good person, regardless of how misguided your views may be, and I hoped that what we had to say could at least have some effect on you that you may be able to see the light. But it really seems like you are intent on believing the lies and supporting this industry, so much that you are willing to literally feed children to this monster.
I am not making any excuses for myself. If you were sitting where I am you would see how these schools have helped kids. From what I have read about you so far, you have based your opinion on just a few kids with bad experiences, I know that.
So you you consider the number 464 a "few"? because thats how many people have signed up for the antiwwasp survivor list. What about 781? because thats how many people have joined the WWASP group on myspace which states "a place for anyone who has been locked up in a WWASP facility... and thinks its a fucked up place" as well as 418 from a group called WWASP survivors and 525 from the AntiWWASP group. There are other groups with similar numbers called "We Hate WWASP" and "Burn WWASP" and groups dedicated to the individual schools. I have actually recently made a myspace for Darrington Academy and I already have 100 members many who have despite the fact that I made it clear that page is not an "Anti-Darrington Academy" page have told me some very shocking things about this seemingly "good" school and left comments about their distaste for the program. I have also recently joined facebook and have joined another group called "Stop WWASP" which is has only 6 people I know on it the other 558 people are people I never knew and havent spoken to. Also please consider that there are many people who are not on groups, who barely ever get online but who I have spoken to personally over the years and they all agree that the WWASP programs did more harm than good. But all these numbers really pale in comparison to the epic number of people who stand against the Troubled Teen Industry as a whole and I can assure you it is unanimous that we all believe that the way these programs have operated over the years is unethical and needs to be stopped!
No, I don’t think anyone would. Would you deny your daughter penicillin if you knew it were going to help her or aspirin to relieve some of the pain? These schools are not controlled by registered sex offenders, you have been mis informed.
What I said was "essentially" meaning that was an example of the severity of this situation, when in reality the people that own these schools have physically and psychologically abused kids in the past but in a few instances have sexually abused kids as well and I am not inclined to believe that they aren't doing the same things today. The owners of these programs may not be registered sex offenders, but that is simply because they hide behind incorporation, and anyone attempting to sue or press charges against these men usually just settle outside of court. Those are one of the many get out of jail free cards that the amount of money these people make can buy them.
I slowly realized that you have no idea what I do, do you? By reading the above paragraph I see you have convinced yourself all schools (and the parents who send them) are evil by building a fictitious wall of information around yourself based on prejudice and hatred. If my assessment is accurate and you really think that way you have a long way to go to have an open conversation with anyone, you are very biased and possibly closed minded on the topic of programs being helpful at all.
That might be a fair assessment, as my statements, mostly out of pure frustration that you have really refused to see my point, were a bit exaggerated. But my point was this, you refer to WWASP, WWASP has done me harm and I am one in hundreds if not thousands who have stood up and said that they were abused. Its boggles my mind that with the amount of information available that parents could still send their kids to these places and futhermore that people like you are able to convince them to do so. All I can assume is that (and yes there are exceptions) there are many parents out there who are not worried about their child being abused or mistreated and in fact are intending on this experience being painful for them in order to punish them for their rebellious behavior. That to me is evil. You can dissagree and assume every parent is really hoping that their child gets "help" but I will let you know that MANY parents have no idea what would help their child, even if they indeed needed it. I base my assuption on "what you do" by the fact that, at the beginning of your posting here, you referred a woman who's only problem with her kids was that he was smoking weed to a WWASP program. Which I'm sure is pretty much a daily thing for you... and if it wasn't I think you would have told us that you dont refer to WWASP, that you have NEVER referred to Tranquility Bay in Jamacia or Casa By The Sea in Mexico. But you have not. So I cant just assume that your team has done the proper amount of "research" to be aware that these schools had (before their clousure) been abusing kids for years! You also arent aware that the staff members that abused kids in mexico now work or opened up their own schools in the US. Why is this not a read flag for you?
I wasnt really respnding to anyone except Michael (psy), I was ignoring everyone not just you. We do have teams which research the schools and we discuss which ones we should refer to and which not. On top of that I make my own judements not to refer to ones I believe to be ineffective or dangerous.
"research" is MUCH different than investigating and your end results would be much different I assure you.
If what I am assuming about your character isn't true than I beg you to prove me wrong. Take a stand and demand some changes because the Ed con's are really the ones who are responsible for the sustainability of this industry and if you don't stand for what is right, and continue to give business to the schools (or their umbrella company) that have a history of abuse you are ONLY soliciting the further abuse of children. You and your people need to realize this because you truly are responsible for hurting kids and their families but if you just had a little change of heart and some courage you could change all that.
I really hate to sound condescending but I work to do the best for the child. You have assumed alot about me and I have given you the benefit of the doubt that you are a good person. If the child does not need help (in my opinion) or the parents haven’t done enough with local services I insist on it before I work with them. I have lost 3 positions because parents called to complain about me not providing them with a list of schools. I don’t scan for schools with the highest commission and then ship kids off.This goes the same for programs. Do you think Jon Martin-Crawford didn’t need help? He was calling in bomb threats to state and federal buildings! Do we just ignore that and say “Oh isn’t that cute, he will grow out of it, kids will be kids”. What happened to him should never happen to anyone. But just shutting down all the schools isnt a solution either. I work hard to prevent some kids from being placed and work hard to make sure kids end up in the right place. If we did it your way, none of the kids would get any help.
The reason I disagree with you very last statement is because I think the problem lies within the parents and the Ed-Cons not DEMANDING specific changes before they would ever trust their child to a program. Furthermore I am of the opinion that some individuals should be banned from ever working with children again and both parents and Ed-Cons should be aware of who these people are and refuse to give them business. These practices would effectively weed out the bad schools and only the schools that were intent on doing things in a safe, ethical and helpful way would be able to exist. An investigation/ regulation method on the part of the Ed-Con's would also make this a reality. I never said you should drop out and never refer a child to a program, although many of us would appreciate one less Ed-Con, in fact I think your purpose would be better served implementing the necessary changes to ensure that abuse in residential treatment programs is abolished. What I dont understand is why everytime I have mentioned this you skirt the conversation and just assume that I think your evil and want you to quit. No, in fact I gave you a really good idea that I have never trusted any other Ed-Con with because I actually believe that you have good intentions here and if you could just allow yourself to hear what we are saying to you you might be able to make a bit of a difference.
After you give it some thought I hope you see, femanon fatal, that working somewhere in the middle is the best solution, placing every kid or denying every kid isn’t.
Look, we asked you to list one good program and I dont doubt that good programs exist. If I had the time and money to properly investigate all the programs I bet you I would be able to find a few that I would be confident to tell you they are "good" programs. But the problem is I do not have the ability to properly investigate and it is very hard for me to take your word for it or make up my mind based on the brochures or information I may get from a website. I really think that if you and the rest of the Ed-Con's were doing your job to properly investigate and regulate these programs I would be able to agree that working somewhere in the middle would be the best solution. As it stands tho, you people are only working on the side of this abusive industry, there is no middle ground here especially when you are intent on discrediting anyone who speaks out. If you were working in the middle you would use our advice and create a way to safe guard against institutionalized child abuse. But you don't do that Kathy, and neither do any of the Ed Con's and that is why more kids are being abused today, and the people that abuse them continue to get away with it.
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Oh my, I might have an internet addiction. It has been interesting for me sharing instead of just reading here.
LOL. on a serious note, do you actually feel that internet addiction exists? See. That's the problem I have with the disease concept of addiction. It absolves people of personal responsibility for their actions. Say you enjoy running or playing chess. Does that mean you have a running or chess playing addiction? It's getting a bit absurd when ordinary enjoyable behaviors are labeled as "addictions".
Such a concept also implies that because people are not responsible for their own actions, and do not have their own free will, imprisoning or "fixing" them against their will is ok (since it's not their will to give).
INo, I don’t think anyone would. Would you deny your daughter penicillin if you knew it were going to help her or aspirin to relieve some of the pain? These schools are not controlled by registered sex offenders, you have been mis informed.
IIRC, one of the Lichfields is a registered sex offender and not allowed to step foot on his own schools (Cross Creek, et al). I don't think he's the only one as I recall hearing about a similar occurrence at another school.
Earlier I raised the point that many schools that are now defunct (such as tranquility bay, Paradise Cove, and many others) were given rave reviews by such "reputable" consultants as "I"ECA member Lon Woodbury (in fact, I can't ever recall reading any negative review by him, ever). Anyway. The point is: how is one to tell a good school for a bad one. Even an educational consultant or a survior with experience. What are your warning signs.
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Who would of guessed that survivors would want to have lengthy conversations that go nowhere with an edcon? Maybe I can find a jewish holocaust survivor board where they want to talk to nazis. Pathetic. The "repleacement parent" troll theWho perfected is still alive and well I can see.
:wall: :smashcomp: :bs: :D :roflmao: :boycott: :rofl: :beat: :timeout: :deal: :soapbox: :blabla: :jerry: ::fullofshit:: ::deadhorse::
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Hey Femanon, my sister is over this weekend with their kids, so it is a little hectic. He broke my rule of smoking in the house and I am a little opissed at both of them. I did this fast, so can I get a "do over" if I contradict myself, was insensative or paint myself in a corner? lol
I find it funny you would make that analogy, because we are the people who would be standing on the pro-choice side of the fence, Hence our focus on protecting the RIGHTS of these children as American citizens.
I have some friends who swould disagree with you. They are staunch pro lifers and would argue that your side of the fence (mine too) is killing the children not saving them. Its all in the perspcective.
And even funnier is that you don't realize the people that run these programs are the ones who would be on the "anti-abortion" side of the fence. And just to let you know, not only would I adopt, I plan to at the point where I am financially capable of doing so. I also have in the past and plan to again volunteer at a women and children's center. and what you might also not know is that I am pursuing my degree in social work and plan to work with struggling teens. I believe your assumptions of me, as well as every other survivor are WAY off base.
We are more alike than I thought. I think we are having difficulty seeing each others view point, though. There are very good people on both sides of the fence. A persons view is based in good part on their experience and also what they have been taught. I don’t fault them for it just because they disagree with me.
But in answer to your question, I really do believe that the existence of an activist group against a certain industry or specific company should be enough for you to question what you think you know about these facilities.
Well it should make everyone question why the activist group exists, but it doesn’t make the activist group right. They could have bad information or biased views. When people protest against abortion clinics it raises awareness but it wont sway everyone to believe in their stance.
Its honestly surprising to me that after all the trouble Psy and I and a few others on this site have gone through to spoon feed you this information that you continue to insult us and attempt to discredit us in everything we say. I guess we too gave you the benefit of the doubt that you might be a good person, regardless of how misguided your views may be, and I hoped that what we had to say could at least have some effect on you that you may be able to see the light. But it really seems like you are intent on believing the lies and supporting this industry, so much that you are willing to literally feed children to this monster.
I have not been insulting, most of the insults were directed at me and ed cons in general. I have been very open minded and understand why you may view programs as you do. I don’t expect to change your view and you shouldn’t expect to change mine. We should both learn from each other and become more moderate and tolerant. I know I am trying, that is why I am posting vs just reading.
So you you consider the number 464 a "few"? because thats how many people have signed up for the antiwwasp survivor list. What about 781? because thats how many people have joined the WWASP group on myspace which states "a place for anyone who has been locked up in a WWASP facility... and thinks its a fucked up place" as well as 418 from a group called WWASP survivors and 525 from the AntiWWASP group. There are other groups with similar numbers called "We Hate WWASP" and "Burn WWASP" and groups dedicated to the individual schools. I have actually recently made a myspace for Darrington Academy and I already have 100 members many who have despite the fact that I made it clear that page is not an "Anti-Darrington Academy" page have told me some very shocking things about this seemingly "good" school and left comments about their distaste for the program. I have also recently joined facebook and have joined another group called "Stop WWASP" which is has only 6 people I know on it the other 558 people are people I never knew and havent spoken to. Also please consider that there are many people who are not on groups, who barely ever get online but who I have spoken to personally over the years and they all agree that the WWASP programs did more harm than good. But all these numbers really pale in comparison to the epic number of people who stand against the Troubled Teen Industry as a whole and I can assure you it is unanimous that we all believe that the way these programs have operated over the years is unethical and needs to be stopped!
I would be too concerned, I dont currently refer to WASPS programs. I have parents come onto fornits and read about programs so many are not interested in them anyway. There are reasons, that I would rather not get into, I have parents read WWASPS web sites.
What I said was "essentially" meaning that was an example of the severity of this situation, when in reality the people that own these schools have physically and psychologically abused kids in the past but in a few instances have sexually abused kids as well and I am not inclined to believe that they aren't doing the same things today. The owners of these programs may not be registered sex offenders, but that is simply because they hide behind incorporation, and anyone attempting to sue or press charges against these men usually just settle outside of court. Those are one of the many get out of jail free cards that the amount of money these people make can buy them.
I understand what you are saying. Sex offenders have ways of moving around and getting back into the system. We all need to be diligent and have these schools perform background checks on all employees. I had 2 kids who went to private boarding schools in Connecticut where the Dean of Students had a record of abuse before he was discovered and removed.
That might be a fair assessment, as my statements, mostly out of pure frustration that you have really refused to see my point, were a bit exaggerated. But my point was this, you refer to WWASP, WWASP has done me harm and I am one in hundreds if not thousands who have stood up and said that they were abused. Its boggles my mind that with the amount of information available that parents could still send their kids to these places and futhermore that people like you are able to convince them to do so. All I can assume is that (and yes there are exceptions) there are many parents out there who are not worried about their child being abused or mistreated and in fact are intending on this experience being painful for them in order to punish them for their rebellious behavior. That to me is evil. You can dissagree and assume every parent is really hoping that their child gets "help" but I will let you know that MANY parents have no idea what would help their child, even if they indeed needed it. I base my assuption on "what you do" by the fact that, at the beginning of your posting here, you referred a woman who's only problem with her kids was that he was smoking weed to a WWASP program. Which I'm sure is pretty much a daily thing for you... and if it wasn't I think you would have told us that you dont refer to WWASP, that you have NEVER referred to Tranquility Bay in Jamacia or Casa By The Sea in Mexico. But you have not. So I cant just assume that your team has done the proper amount of "research" to be aware that these schools had (before their clousure) been abusing kids for years! You also arent aware that the staff members that abused kids in mexico now work or opened up their own schools in the US. Why is this not a read flag for you?
I wouldn’t sweat the WWASP thing and I don’t refer kids to programs for smoking pot. My sister and her husband smoke all the time (which I am not happy about right now and don’t feel very open minded today) and they have 3 kids in the house.
The reason I disagree with you very last statement is because I think the problem lies within the parents and the Ed-Cons not DEMANDING specific changes before they would ever trust their child to a program. Furthermore I am of the opinion that some individuals should be banned from ever working with children again and both parents and Ed-Cons should be aware of who these people are and refuse to give them business. These practices would effectively weed out the bad schools and only the schools that were intent on doing things in a safe, ethical and helpful way would be able to exist. An investigation/ regulation method on the part of the Ed-Con's would also make this a reality. I never said you should drop out and never refer a child to a program, although many of us would appreciate one less Ed-Con, in fact I think your purpose would be better served implementing the necessary changes to ensure that abuse in residential treatment programs is abolished. What I dont understand is why everytime I have mentioned this you skirt the conversation and just assume that I think your evil and want you to quit. No, in fact I gave you a really good idea that I have never trusted any other Ed-Con with because I actually believe that you have good intentions here and if you could just allow yourself to hear what we are saying to you you might be able to make a bit of a difference.
Look, we asked you to list one good program and I dont doubt that good programs exist. If I had the time and money to properly investigate all the programs I bet you I would be able to find a few that I would be confident to tell you they are "good" programs. But the problem is I do not have the ability to properly investigate and it is very hard for me to take your word for it or make up my mind based on the brochures or information I may get from a website. I really think that if you and the rest of the Ed-Con's were doing your job to properly investigate and regulate these programs I would be able to agree that working somewhere in the middle would be the best solution. As it stands tho, you people are only working on the side of this abusive industry, there is no middle ground here especially when you are intent on discrediting anyone who speaks out. If you were working in the middle you would use our advice and create a way to safe guard against institutionalized child abuse. But you don't do that Kathy, and neither do any of the Ed Con's and that is why more kids are being abused today, and the people that abuse them continue to get away with it.
There is a lot of work being done in this area, trying to prevent abuse within the industry has been very difficult and we have tried what you have suggested. The industry lacks a regulatory agency where we could centralize the information and empower people to react and close schools down. An area we are persuing is a central database which has everyones name who works with children and their history, cory,INS etc.. this would apply to all schools this way we can piggy back the system which would get federal funding for the public school system. It is in the works and will have information available similar to what doctors and hospitals have.. number of lawsuits, claims against etc.
Femanon fatal. I understand your frustration, I work in this system everyday and deal with people who do not believe a child should be sent away from the home period, no matter how good the school is or successful a solution. I have met people who feel every child would benefit from a few months away in a structured environment. Everyone has an opinion and a valid reason for it and I think that is good although challenging.
It would be helpful on your end to use all the information at fornits disposal to form a list of the “Best and the worst” programs. This would help keep some kids from attending the programs which could be very damaging to them instead of telling parents they are all the same or all equally abusive. Have you ever thought of that? I feel this could be constructive and you have lots of information here on fornits, what do you think?
Kathy
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It was proved The Family Foundation “School” administrators designed, implemented, overseen, and carried out torture and thought reform upon youth. But this “edcon” “refers” kids there for lock-down level “care” because the FFSA’s were supposedly only doing so from when they opened- 7 years ago.
Kathy, you’re too dumb and heartless to see your outrageous logic proves your team’s worthlessness as “consultant groups who steer parents around dangerous and abusive, and ‘ineffective’ programs” better than I could
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Frederick’s right. It’s kinda obvious “Kathy” is by the Good Folks who brought Us "thewho." New Who has a better excuse for coming here now: it's a "edcon," not an inexplicably obsessed with fornits program-parent. It shares thewho's feelings that any of Aspen Programs are great! And it has the same bewilderment over terms like "gulag" "abduction" and "imprisonment". Oh...they're so confusing! What could they possibly mean? Maybe we could stop using those words?
It also understand why victims of abduction, and imprisonment torture “don’t like” “schools” that hold their “students” prisoner. How generous! But don't we understand, the leaders of the gulags that organized our torture and brainwashing as long as 5 years ago, have reorganized and now provide wonderful services?
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WILL someone get the stats for the rest of the "schools' this beast posted? Psy?
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Frederick’s right. It’s kinda obvious “Kathy” is by the Good Folks who brought Us "thewho." New Who has a better excuse for coming here now: it's a "edcon," not an inexplicably obsessed with fornits program-parent. It shares thewho's feelings that any of Aspen Programs are great! And it has the same bewilderment over terms like "gulag" "abduction" and "imprisonment". Oh...they're so confusing! What could they possibly mean? Maybe we could stop using those words?
Don't forget the "would you deny a kid penicillin?" analogy. Methinks it runs in the family. Does TheWho have a younger sister?
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Actually I believe this was your least "reaction provoking" post yet.
I'm inclined to agree to disagree but I must be honest that in this case I believe much more can be done if the Ed-Con's would put their judgments of us aside and listen to what we have to say. Many times there is hostility between the two sides of the Troubled Teen Industry, mostly out of projected judgments from both sides but also from distrust. I can understand why WE would distrust the people who support the schools that abused us but what I don't understand is why there aren't more parents (or Ed-Con's) like Pam who realize there is NO WAY we all could be making this up. For instance why does my mom and her friends (who have all been through the Vision's seminars) always discount what happened to me by saying "you were headed down the wrong path" as if that's supposed to excuse the crimes committed against me. she doesn't support any lawsuits against WWASP and she thinks when I talk about my nightmares and social anxiety that I am being "victimy". It's seriously ingrained in her to never take anything I have to say about WWASP seriously, but on every other issue my mother is one of the most loving and supportive people I know. Why is it that WWASP is literally the ONLY thing we have been able to disagree on for the past 6 years? I know it sounds outlandish but it really seems to me that all the brainwashing about their kids just "manipulating" worked all to well on my parents and most other parents (mostly women) that I know who have been to the seminars. It is only those who have walked out of the seminars and or pulled their kids before they did those seminars that are able to believe us. WHY is that?
I did want to let you know that we do have plans to create a "Red Flags" list which will chronicle the kinds of abuses that have been reported at these schools as well as a "Most Wanted" list that will be almost EXACTLY what you talked about and list all the admins and higher up staff members at these schools and any criminal records as well as a section where victims can make comments and possibly explain the exact incident where they were mistreated or abused by this person. We will not however make any indications as to what schools might be "good". The only way I would feel comfortable doing this kind of thing would be if I had government backed access and the resources to FULLY investigate each and every program, interview the current students and survey a large amount of ex-students. I just don't have the ability to do the proper research, visit the schools and gain access to ex-students that wouldn't already be biased. If i did, lets say attain a position within the government that oversaw the regulations of the troubled teen industry, then I would most likely be able to put a plan in place that would thoroughly "weed out" the bad schools and put the child abusers away for a long time, and what you would have left would be your seemingly "good" schools that would be properly regulated. and honestly that's what I'm shooting for, but as of now... no we cant do that.
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Frederick’s right. It’s kinda obvious “Kathy” is by the Good Folks who brought Us "thewho." New Who has a better excuse for coming here now: it's a "edcon," not an inexplicably obsessed with fornits program-parent. It shares thewho's feelings that any of Aspen Programs are great! And it has the same bewilderment over terms like "gulag" "abduction" and "imprisonment". Oh...they're so confusing! What could they possibly mean? Maybe we could stop using those words?
Don't forget the "would you deny a kid penicillin?" analogy. Methinks it runs in the family. Does TheWho have a younger sister?
actually i didnt catch that... but whats funny is that I have a friend who had significant medical problems at Casa and they denied her penicillin.
so uh... yea good analogy. I sure wouldn't, but the program would and that's why we oppose them.
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Actually I believe this was your least "reaction provoking" post yet.
I'm inclined to agree to disagree but I must be honest that in this case I believe much more can be done if the Ed-Con's would put their judgments of us aside and listen to what we have to say. Many times there is hostility between the two sides of the Troubled Teen Industry, mostly out of projected judgments from both sides but also from distrust. I can understand why WE would distrust the people who support the schools that abused us but what I don't understand is why there aren't more parents (or Ed-Con's) like Pam who realize there is NO WAY we all could be making this up. For instance why does my mom and her friends (who have all been through the Vision's seminars) always discount what happened to me by saying "you were headed down the wrong path" as if that's supposed to excuse the crimes committed against me. .
because she is a failure of a parent, and kind of a bad person. Like all parents who are involved in kidnapping, imprisoning and ignoring their kid's cries for help
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It would be helpful on your end to use all the information at fornits disposal to form a list of the “Best and the worst” programs. This would help keep some kids from attending the programs which could be very damaging to them instead of telling parents they are all the same or all equally abusive. Have you ever thought of that? I feel this could be constructive and you have lots of information here on fornits, what do you think?
Kathy
I think that information would eventually come out about a good portion of the "best" programs to shift them towards the worst category. In the mean time, those parents would have us to blame for making such a list. It's playing Russian roulette with other people's kids and i'm not going to have that on my conscience. Need I remind that there is no evidence any of these schools work (other than anecdotal). If the FDA is going to approve a drug, it needs to be proven to work and be relatively safe (eg: penecillin). The same criteria does not apply to programs, where whoever has the best marketing and business strategy wins.
As a libertarian, I can appreciate that approach, but at the same time, the fact remains that as it stands, parents do expect the industry to be licensed and regulated in a similar manner. They often go in blissfully aware that any sort of abuse is possible or common (and such is a consequence of a public that has become too reliant on a nanny state...). Personally, I would prefer that the public be skeptical and not expect some regulatory (and often incompetent) figure to help them out, but as it stands, they do expect just that. It's often too late when they figure out "oh! what do you mean it's not regulated?!?!?" or in states where "schools" are regulated, "what do you mean inspections are scheduled and infrequent!?!?". As Antigen has said on this forum before: "to err is human. It takes government intervention to really fuck things up".
My approach, is to simply educate the public, tap them on the shoulder, get some discussion on this issue, and let them know that there is no magic government sky fairy protecting their kids (and if there is, he's drinking on the job). In my experience, there is no way to tell a good program from a bad one. Past endorsements of educational consultants (even reputable ones) proves they are incapable. To that end I pose you these questions, which I believe you overlooked.
Oh my, I might have an internet addiction. It has been interesting for me sharing instead of just reading here.
LOL. on a serious note, do you actually feel that internet addiction exists? See. That's the problem I have with the disease concept of addiction. It absolves people of personal responsibility for their actions. Say you enjoy running or playing chess. Does that mean you have a running or chess playing addiction? It's getting a bit absurd when ordinary enjoyable behaviors are labeled as "addictions".
Such a concept also implies that because people are not responsible for their own actions, and do not have their own free will, imprisoning or "fixing" them against their will is ok (since it's not their will to give).
INo, I don’t think anyone would. Would you deny your daughter penicillin if you knew it were going to help her or aspirin to relieve some of the pain? These schools are not controlled by registered sex offenders, you have been mis informed.
IIRC, one of the Lichfields is a registered sex offender and not allowed to step foot on his own schools (Cross Creek, et al). I don't think he's the only one as I recall hearing about a similar occurrence at another school.
Earlier I raised the point that many schools that are now defunct (such as tranquility bay, Paradise Cove, and many others) were given rave reviews by such "reputable" consultants as "I"ECA member Lon Woodbury (in fact, I can't ever recall reading any negative review by him, ever). Anyway. The point is: how is one to tell a good school for a bad one. Even an educational consultant or a survior with experience. What are your warning signs?
I'm particularly interested in that last question there.
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viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21280&p=278924#p278924 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21280&p=278924#p278924)
Anne Bonney wrote:Bullshit. They've had plenty of time. These places have been around for what, 40 or so years now?
Well there you have it. They have both been around for several decades and both have proven to be highly effective (no long terms studies which prove negative results for the majority of the population) although like penicillin it doesnt work for everyone, but that is no reason to discontinue their usage.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25845&p=314986#p314986 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25845&p=314986#p314986)
So, as long as Dad "thought" he was doing the right thing it makes the (none from him, all from program) beatings, the humiliation, the forced confessions, the isolation......that was all OK because he "thought he was doing the right thing at the time and for the right reasons.....THAT'S what is important" the abuse, all OK cuz he "meant well"? Shit!!!! Miller Newton THOUGHT he was doing the right thing. He STILL does. He STILL defends what he did years ago and what he does now. No, it's not what is important. What is important is the effect it had on me and my development as a person. The road to hell and all............. What's important, is the consequences of these thought processees (sp). What's important is that people finally realize that force/coercion has NO PLACE in a therapeutic setting. "Positive peer pressure" my ass.
Sure, if he knew they were beating you then yes he should feel guilty and was a lousy parent if he didn’t try to get you out. But if he felt (at the time) what he did was the best for you then he shouldn’t feel guilty now. The same as my mother should not feel guilty that she was feeding her kids bacon and eggs, whole milk etc. And my dad was smoking in the house around the kids. If they were doing it now then yes it would be wrong. But what your dad did and my mother did is not anything to feel guilty about.
And if it turns out that the programs of today are proven to be the best thing since penicillin you shouldn’t feel guilty for trying to stop kids from getting help because you are doing what you feel is best right now in your own mind.
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=25983&start=120#p324254 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=25983&start=120#p324254)
Would you allow your daughter to go live and be completely controlled by a group of registered sex offenders? and willingly give up your child's right to contact you if they did something to her?
No, I don’t think anyone would. Would you deny your daughter penicillin if you knew it were going to help her or aspirin to relieve some of the pain? These schools are not controlled by registered sex offenders, you have been mis informed.
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IIRC, one of the Lichfields is a registered sex offender and not allowed to step foot on his own schools (Cross Creek, et al). I don't think he's the only one as I recall hearing about a similar occurrence at another school.
Earlier I raised the point that many schools that are now defunct (such as tranquility bay, Paradise Cove, and many others) were given rave reviews by such "reputable" consultants as "I"ECA member Lon Woodbury (in fact, I can't ever recall reading any negative review by him, ever). Anyway. The point is: how is one to tell a good school for a bad one. Even an educational consultant or a survior with experience. What are your warning signs?
Yuk, I rely (primarily) on a few things.
1. Feed back from families, which we stay in touch with and field reports from corporate who review.
2. visit and rate the schools/programs,
3.Feedback I read on fornits, the ones that are believable and sincere .
Personal warning signs.
When I read of kids who move out of the house upon return from a program, kids who were not depressed prior to entering a program and are now seeking mental health help on a weekly basis or are on medications now who were not on them before.
Programs or schools should not be in the business of medicating the kids unless they are just continuing what the child was prescribed prior to entering the program. Local therapists are better equipped to identify, prescribe, followup and adjust dosages/medications then a program handling hundreds of kids at a time. The quality of the personal attention can be diminished.
Kids who tend to be worse off afterwards or more violent without having a serious mental condition or diagnosis.
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What I said was "essentially" meaning that was an example of the severity of this situation, when in reality the people that own these schools have physically and psychologically abused kids in the past but in a few instances have sexually abused kids as well and I am not inclined to believe that they aren't doing the same things today. The owners of these programs may not be registered sex offenders, but that is simply because they hide behind incorporation, and anyone attempting to sue or press charges against these men usually just settle outside of court. Those are one of the many get out of jail free cards that the amount of money these people make can buy them.
I understand what you are saying. Sex offenders have ways of moving around and getting back into the system. We all need to be diligent and have these schools perform background checks on all employees. I had 2 kids who went to private boarding schools in Connecticut where the Dean of Students had a record of abuse before he was discovered and removed.
Which place might this be? Is it Hyde School?
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LOL. on a serious note, do you actually feel that internet addiction exists? See. That's the problem I have with the disease concept of addiction. It absolves people of personal responsibility for their actions. Say you enjoy running or playing chess. Does that mean you have a running or chess playing addiction? It's getting a bit absurd when ordinary enjoyable behaviors are labeled as "addictions".
Such a concept also implies that because people are not responsible for their own actions, and do not have their own free will, imprisoning or "fixing" them against their will is ok (since it's not their will to give
I could speak quite a bit on this subject. I do believe internet addiction exists. I think people can become addicted to just about anything, some physically (alcohol) others mentally(internet) some both (cigarettes). It is important to perceive that there is a difference between addiction and abuse. Most kids who are thought to be addicted to drugs are merely just abusing them or experimenting for various reasons, the list is long. Very few kids are actually addicted to anything, it is more of an adult issue which is the result of long term abuse.
Even some adults can abuse substances for a long time and then when faced with a health issue and/or medications which require the patient to stop drugging or drinking they are abole to do it without outside help. Addiction runs in families and some people are vulnerable to addiction than others.
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What I said was "essentially" meaning that was an example of the severity of this situation, when in reality the people that own these schools have physically and psychologically abused kids in the past but in a few instances have sexually abused kids as well and I am not inclined to believe that they aren't doing the same things today. The owners of these programs may not be registered sex offenders, but that is simply because they hide behind incorporation, and anyone attempting to sue or press charges against these men usually just settle outside of court. Those are one of the many get out of jail free cards that the amount of money these people make can buy them.
I understand what you are saying. Sex offenders have ways of moving around and getting back into the system. We all need to be diligent and have these schools perform background checks on all employees. I had 2 kids who went to private boarding schools in Connecticut where the Dean of Students had a record of abuse before he was discovered and removed.
Which place might this be? Is it Hyde School?
No, I cant mention the name of the school. I recieved 2 emails from people who I work with asking me if I was the KathyS on fornits. I wasnt too smart in my name choice I guess.
It isnt a therapeutic school, it is a private school that has been around for over a 100 years. I dont believe it has ever been mentioned on this site. When I re-read the post it sounded like I meant they were my own children. They were not. I use the term "My kids" to refer to any kids that I work with. Sorry if this was confusing.
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I wouldn’t not recommend someone to a school because it contained one of 10 warning signs. I have not seen your list of warning signs but you may be miss led on how to apply them. Warning signs are meant to raise awareness. For example one of the warning signs of depression is weight loss. But because a child is losing weight does not mean they have depression, they could have a serious medical condition or just be on a silly diet due to social pressure, but it is something to keep your eye on.
I could never give a full list of schools, but a few that come to mind are:
Wil Lou Gray
The Academy
The family foundation school
Fulshear ranch academy
Most of the Aspen schools and wilderness programs
Here's a snippet about a place called "The Academy" from a multi-program compilation page aptly titled Voices from the GULAG (http://http://www.teenliberty.org/Voices.htm):
4. "Satisfaction Guaranteed"
Four months before MK's death of a blood clot in her lungs, inspectors in Iowa cited numerous violations at "The Academy" a residential program for 162 troubled teenagers.
Violations at The Academy, noted the inspectors, included aggressive restraints. Most restraints, began with a minor incident, like a child's not putting on a coat. Many ended in injuries to the children, including broken blood vessels, black eyes, and bloody noses. Oklahoma inspectors visiting a resident from their state reported a 2 ½-hour restraint in which five male staff members held down a female resident, one lying across her hips.
In filing a report on M's death, state investigators concluded that "she was made to suffer greater distress than was reasonably necessary." She had been placed at the facility by the state because she was deemed to be "a child in need of assistance."[/list]
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Hoo boy. Thank you Ursus.
So, Kathy, do violations/abuse cited by govt. authorities factor into your warning signs?
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Hoo boy. Thank you Ursus.
So, Kathy, do violations/abuse cited by govt. authorities factor into your warning signs?
To Ursus: That is the total scope of your search. One lone negative report from "Voices from the Gulag". No positive information at all?
To Michael< Yes, All information does. We receive information on schools from corporate. The programs themselves. There are site visits which we will attend ourselves for a firsthand look. Any press releases or news articles. We look at the good the bad and the ugly but not, I am sorry to say, “Voices from the Gulag” is not one of our credible sources, come-on, Michael, do you really think we should limit all political information and thinking, as an example, to just Rush Limbaugh? And base our decision on the information he feeds us? I don’t judge books by their cover, but I don’t think anyone in their right minds would name themselves that and expect to be credible. Its designed to raise peoples emotions make them mad and turn them against the programs.
We do look at everything, fornits, like I stated before. But we take it all into perspective and weigh the findings before considering if this is a place that we should be referring to or not.
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I am trying to do a few things at once today and I am interested in this thread right now. The wording didnt come out the way I wanted on thelast post. I am not mad or anything. Just not use to talking to people with opinions which are so different than my own.
Kathy
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It was proved The Family Foundation “School” administrators designed, implemented, overseen, and carried out torture and thought reform upon youth. But this “edcon” “refers” kids there for lock-down level “care” because the FFSA’s were supposedly only doing so from when they opened- 7 years ago.
Kathy, you’re too dumb and heartless to see your outrageous logic proves your team’s worthlessness as “consultant groups who steer parents around dangerous and abusive, and ‘ineffective’ programs” better than I could
Kathy, can you respond to this. And J.C.'s comments. The leaders of this org. were proved by congress to have "designed, implemented, overseen, and carried out torture and thought reform upon youth," as little as 7 years ago
Sworn testimonies continues to accrue that the leaders of FFS continue the same. Why is this a "good" place for kids, then? I mean, I really can't think of a better reason to recommend against an org that is supposed to provide "lock-down care" for its students then the designers not only having no credentials, and run an “ineffective” program...but are predators who have killed adolescents since their org.s inception
Shouldn't an “edcon” advise parents to avoid org.s that have leaders that designed and systematically executed torture on their “students”?
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Kathy, can you respond to this. And J.C.'s comments. The leaders of this org. were proved by congress to have "designed, implemented, overseen, and carried out torture and thought reform upon youth," as little as 7 years ago
Sworn testimonies continues to accrue that the leaders of FFS continue the same. Why is this a "good" place for kids, then? I mean, I really can't think of a better reason to recommend against an org that is supposed to provide "lock-down care" for its students then the designers not only having no credentials, and run an “ineffective” program...but are predators who have killed adolescents since their org.s inception
It is difficult to have a conversation with someone when they are name calling, so I ignored you. Hey, if you don’t think I should refer to FFS then name a suitable program which would be a better substitute. Then maybe we can talk. If you think they are all equally abusive, then why bother arguing?
Shouldn't an “edcon” advise parents to avoid org.s that have leaders that designed and systematically executed torture on their “students”?
[/quote]
No, I wouldn’t refer any student to these organizations.
Kathy
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That wasn't me who posted that originally
But, the fact remains, you refer to FFS, though its leaders have been proved by congress "to have designed, implemented, and executed torture and thought reform" on their "students," while holding them in forced imprisonment? I don't understand. As an "edcon" shouldn't you be advising parents to avoid a group like that, instead of holding it up as the example of a "good" "school"?
Psy, Ursus, wanna bring up the info on those other places "she" listed
John Crawford, from CAFETY, could you please talk to this woman about the details and level of proof against FFS leaders?
You know better than I, and this "person's" dialogue presents a great opprotunity to showcase the quality of judgement and integrity of "edcons."
thanks.
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Guest: I have internal information, but I would need to strip the header and would not be able to post the entire report due to legal complications because they dont belong to me, so I am posting something similar but accurate:
The Family Foundation School is accredited as a school by the Middle States Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, the New York State Department of Education and is accredited as a behavioral health care facility by the Joint Commission
1. From 2004 through 2008, all Family Foundation School graduates have been accepted at postsecondary institutions, with 85 percent to four-year colleges and 15 percent to two-year schools or professional training.
2. A Family Foundation School Alumni Association was established after the school held its first alumni reunion in September 2006. More than 125 former students from around the United States attended the reunion
3. The school's English and Philosophy instructor and middle school principal, Jan Cheripko, is the author of nine books, has won numerous national and international book awards and has been a featured speaker at the National Council of Teachers of English, the International Reading Association, and numerous other New York State and Northeastern U.S. regional education conferences. He has also conducted graduate teaching accredited workshops on how to reach at-risk students through writing and literature
4. After the hearings:
The school responded by declaring their support of the efforts of the committee to keep children safe from harm, adding that they had since modified their crisis-management methods to meet the standards of both the New York State Department of Education and the Therapeutic Crisis Intervention (TCI) program developed by Cornell University. The school also stated that since 1999, all school faculty and staff are required to be trained in Therapeutic Crisis Intervention techniques.
5. The Family Foundation School's extracurricular programs include sports teams, drama productions, musical programs, an art department and a wide variety of clubs.
6. The school's performing arts program presents full-scale musicals, drama productions, winter and spring choral concerts that are open to the public. and is a regular participant in the North American Music Festivals.
7. In 2004 and 2005, the school's debating team won the Seventh annual Delaware-Otsego Bar Associations Forensic Speech Tournament, a regional debating competition.
8. The school soccer team won the championship in the New York State Class D, Section IX Conference in 2005. FFS alumnus Wells Thompson plays Major League Soccer for the New England Revolution
Do you still think it is a secret society of thought reform and torture? You need to distance yourselves from web sites like “stories for the Gulag” and the other one which actually seemed worse but I cant remember its name. You should try reading more main stream information to get more a perspective.
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The "mainstream sorces," being the "schools" public relations materials? Not the sworn testimony and invvestiagatory reports of congressional hearings?
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Those “voices” gave sworn testimony and used their real names. Sworn testimony is used as the primary means to criminally prosecute and even inflict the death penalty on defendants. So why are these people using their real names,(unlike you) testifying under oath, whose sort of testimony is “good enough” to serve as the base of judicial prosecution "not good enough" to be “credible” for you?
People who swear to experiences under oath, are quite “credible” because they are at risk for perjury charges(which can lead to prison) if they lie or leave things out. They are therefore more credible then the "families" you supposedly keep in touch with...
Shouldn't "edcons", after finding sworn testimony about institutions that provide care for "students" in "medical" confinement steer parents around orgs. that have multiple testimonies over through-out the decades, that are strikingly similar, are accompanied (if you search independently) by news-articles and information about the cult-connections, lack of credentials, and multiple civil and criminal charges about the orgnaization's leaders, consider these accounts "credible"?
Shouldn’t you refer to orgs. that don't have 1000s of sworn, and unsworn accounts of imprisonment and systematized torture?
Thank you for helping shed-light on the "edcon" industry, KathyS.
You aim a shining light at an "industry" that "recomends" confining helpless adolescants in the "care" of people who intentionally inflicted brain damage through cultic violations for at least 20 years.
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Those “voices” gave sworn testimony and used their real names. Sworn testimony is used as the primary means to criminally prosecute and even inflict the death penalty on defendants. So why are these people using their real names,(unlike you) testifying under oath, whose sort of testimony is “good enough” to serve as the base of judicial prosecution "not good enough" to be “credible” for you?
He is credible and I believe everything he said that happened to him. But he is one person, guest. If I produced a person who would swear on the bible that they were not abused and would recommend other peers could be helped by going to FFS would you then change your mind and come over to my side? If not then why do you think I should? Shouldnt we gather “All” the evidence we can from many people and then make a decision based on that?
People who swear to experiences under oath, are quite “credible” because they are at risk for perjury charges(which can lead to prison) if they lie or leave things out. They are therefore more credible then the "families" you supposedly keep in touch with...
So if we elliminate everyone who didn’t testify in court then that wipes out everyone on fornits also. So that stillleaves us with one opinion. How do we decide a childsfate on just one persons account? Shouldn’t we look at more people?
Shouldn't "edcons", after finding sworn testimony about institutions that provide care for "students" in "medical" confinement steer parents around orgs. that have multiple testimonies over through-out the decades, that are strikingly similar, are accompanied (if you search independently) by news-articles and information about the cult-connections, lack of credentials, and multiple civil and criminal charges about the orgnaization's leaders, consider these accounts "credible"?
Shouldn’t you refer to orgs. that don't have 1000s of sworn, and unsworn accounts of imprisonment and systematized torture?
We should try to look at everyone that is willing to speak on the subject and has experience first or second hand.
Thank you for helping shed-light on the "edcon" industry, KathyS.
Thank you ,but I don’t represent all edcons. Not even close, I argue with them all the time.
You aim a shining light at an "industry" that "recomends" confining helpless adolescants in the "care" of people who intentionally inflicted brain damage through cultic violations for at least 20 years.
Oh lord another pagan cultic believer, I should have known, grow up for christs sake. Why do you have to label everyone as cult or noncult? Who cares even if they are cults? I am mad that you waste peoples time with this. Do you really believe that these places are cults? What is your definition? I told myself that I wouldnt get in this with a guest and stay with psy and a few of the reputable people. So I hope you dont see me as rude by ignoring your future posts.
Kathy.
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Those “voices” gave sworn testimony and used their real names. Sworn testimony is used as the primary means to criminally prosecute and even inflict the death penalty on defendants. So why are these people using their real names,(unlike you) testifying under oath, whose sort of testimony is “good enough” to serve as the base of judicial prosecution "not good enough" to be “credible” for you?
He is credible and I believe everything he said that happened to him. But he is one person, guest. If I produced a person who would swear on the bible that they were not abused and would recommend other peers could be helped by going to FFS would you then change your mind and come over to my side? If not then why do you think I should? Shouldnt we gather “All” the evidence we can from many people and then make a decision based on that?
There are many other people supplying similar testimony. Why have you not looked them over? They are on CAFETY and are availble at the GAO's site and a variety of others. There are many articles in "mainstream" journals (and I use "mainstream" correctly, not the way apply it, to P.R. materials)
You'd think that if an edcon "beleived" an org. was sytematically exposing kids to cultic-abuse, as you claim you do, he'd stop sending kids to that org., but as you show, that isn't the case. Thank-you for drawing attention to that.
Thank you for helping shed-light on the "edcon" industry, KathyS.
Thank you ,but I don’t represent all edcons. Not even close, I argue with them all the time.
Like it or not you do, Kathy. You are the only ed-con who has ever engaged in public dialogue, like this. Thank-You for the quality of your example.
You aim a shining light at an "industry" that "recomends" confining helpless adolescants in the "care" of people who intentionally inflicted brain damage through cultic violations for at least 20 years.
Oh lord another pagan cultic believer, I should have known, grow up for christs sake.
“Pagan" cultic believer? I'm sad to add "bigot" to the list of adjectives that describe your character. Academicaly and journalistically, non-Christians also are not "unreputable" sources.
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Why do you have to label everyone as cult or noncult? Who cares even if they are cults? I am mad that you waste peoples time with this. Do you really believe that these places are cults? What is your definition? I told myself that I wouldnt get in this with a guest and stay with psy and a few of the reputable people. So I hope you dont see me as rude by ignoring your future posts.
I am going to ask now that you stop verbally abusing me by telling me to "grow up" describing me as "unreputable," and saying I deserve to be ignored." I am a teen survivor of these institutions. I deserve to be heard.
It is unethical to deem victims who describe their abuse with an appropriate term worthy of being ignored. It is unethical for you to ignore victims because you feel they describe torture that is "very" intense as opposed to "somewhat" intense.
Thank-you for showing readers that "edcons" (you and your team) ignore teen survivors who use the term "cultic" to describe the torture they experienced at their "schools." Do you only ignore kids who use the term "cultic abuse," or do you also ignore kids who simply describe cultic abuse.
If so, you "ignored" the testimony of majority of Family Foundation "school" victims for the past 20 years. You also ignore that kid you just now claimed to have beleived. I can see why you find so "little" credible accounts of systematic torture at Family Foundatin School as so many victims explicitly or implicitly decribed cultic abuse,.
You also ignore the testimony of the survivors of: Straight, Kids Helping Kids, The Seed, Deisto, Elan, and CEDU.
You also gnore the testimony of psychiatrists and behavior scientists on this issue. By your rationale, all of these doctors and survivors are automatically unreputable, and Straight, The Seed, and Desisto are "good" schools.
Why do you have to label everyone as cult or noncult? Who cares even if they are cults? I am mad that you waste peoples time with this. Do you really believe that these places are cults? What is your definition?
A cultic organization is an authoritarian, hierarchal organization that deliberately and methodologically exposes its prisoners or followers to systematic thought reform or coercive persuasion. It will usually do so in a deceptive manner, presenting a facade with a "noble" aim and system, while in reality its aim is financial gain for the leader and/or self-serving domination of human beings, and in reality it maintains a different system.
For example, the deception the family foundation "school" engages in includes calling itself a "school" though it abducts and holds its "students'" prisoner. That's behavior is not keeping with the defintion of a "school," as you know
Their m.o included forcing "students" to torture other students by terrorizing them with a complex system of rewards and punishents. They were deceptive by hiding the methods they used to control students:
"I experienced interventations only as a witness - I was once responsible for helping wrap another girl in a blanket and taping her wrapped shut. There was slight slapping involved but no brutal beating, althogh the experience and method is brutal enough. We were also forced to hold and pin a girl down shoving fish sitcks down her throat (which she was allergic too) until she threw up…. "
FFS is not a cult by traditional understanding, because unlike a cult it does not expose its constituents to coercive persuasion; it exposes them to "thought reform." This is because, like all of America's cultic-gulags it captures its victims’ through abduction, holds them in forced imprisonment, and “cleanses their minds” immediately through explicitly brutal methods, not the "softer" manipulations of traditional cults.
It is closer to the Gulags studied by Lifton in "Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" than a cultic organization like Scientology
However, because it is not a state run organization but an independent group, because it incorporates “modern” softer methods of coercive persuasion, because it must resort to deceptions to remain “legal” and because its aims aren’t political but financial and personal, it is not merely a thought-reform gulag. It is half cult, half gulag, a "cultic-gulag."
I hope you understand what the term "cultic organization" means now
Next time you hear a child you placed describe the "school" they were imprisoned in as a "cult," you won't have to ignore them.
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Kathy,
I don't expect that anything I say will change your mind about things, and I doubt anything anyone else says will either.
This is the only thing I can hope, and the reason I have put in the effort to talk to you is to help you to ease your judgments on us, and take the message we are trying to send out seriously.
Heres an example:
We look at the good the bad and the ugly but not, I am sorry to say, “Voices from the Gulag” is not one of our credible sources, come-on
I've seen you make statements like this before and this really throws me off about you. Why is it that you are so quick to discredit a source, especially a seemingly neutral source simply because it came from a website that uses words that indicate they harbor a different stance on this issue?... Why is that okay in your mind? to me that is complete avoidance of an issue that should be addressed. This article is about a young girl who DIED at the hands of staff in a program that utilizes the same manner of restraint that I described in my experience in High Impact and the same kind of restraints that are commonly used in WWASP as well as many others. Have you ever scanned through one of the death lists on ISAC.org or Secretprisonsforteens.uk or Heal.org? Do you realize this is a common thing, for children to DIE from the restraint methods used by this industry? Why are you willing to discredit the death of children in these programs an account of "terminology" that happens to be in opposition to your beliefs? I would encourage you to look past these judgmental tendencies, and be open to take the general message from these sources. Because if you continue to find trivial reasons to discredit and brush off our claims its just the same as burying your head in the sand and ignoring these red flags just to justify yourself and this industry. I challenge you to separate yourself from for a moment from the here and now and try to take an outsiders perspective on the issue as a whole. Yes weigh out the good and the bad but take it all of face value, as much as you want to discredit us believe me it is just as easy for us to discredit your sources... so just take it as it is and weigh it out. I'm confident that deaths, and allegations of abuse far outweigh the few program parents and kids who say (while on the phone with and Ed-Con mind you) that the program helped them. I really encourage you to let your pride and defense of your career go for a single second and realize that you could have been mislead. Although there might be some good that has come out of these programs, most times there is way more bad. and you arent going to get a phone call about it, instead those people are going to be talking to us... and we are relying this to you. We are not liars and we have no ulterior motives here, you must understand we have great reason to have opposing views on this subject and you can either respect that and take from our words what you need to go make a difference, or you can continue to judge and there will be very little good that will ever come from our communications and we will continue to go back and fourth with no resolution.
I am glad you came here to speak with us, I would be very happy to see that you were able to change some of your judgments on us and the other survivors that have had the courage to speak out, and to not deny the existence of those who have not. We need someone like you to hear us and take us seriously despite the "terminology" differences in our lingo. You must not see that YOU are in the perfect position to MAKE SURE that kids arent being abused anymore and if you cant do your job properly, then we will simply HAVE to oppose the industry all together.
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I've seen you make statements like this before and this really throws me off about you. Why is it that you are so quick to discredit a source, especially a seemingly neutral source simply because it came from a website that uses words that indicate they harbor a different stance on this issue?... Why is that okay in your mind? to me that is complete avoidance of an issue that should be addressed. This article is about a young girl who DIED at the hands of staff in a program that utilizes the same manner of restraint that I described in my experience in High Impact and the same kind of restraints that are commonly used in WWASP as well as many others. Have you ever scanned through one of the death lists on ISAC.org or Secretprisonsforteens.uk or Heal.org? Do you realize this is a common thing, for children to DIE from the restraint methods used by this industry?
When I read thru some of the stories I shake my head because I know I cannot direct parents to those sites because it would discredit myself and the agency. I understand that the message that is being sent via the stories is sincere but I have had parents read some of those sites before and they all have the same reaction... why did you waste my time, how do we know which part is true. Parents are already flooded with “mom my teacher is a Nazi, its like a prison in that school, can I stay home today”?....”Dad my gym teacher is trying to kill us, he forced us to do 100 push-ups and Sally almost died”. It just doesn’t work sending parents to read that.
Why are you willing to discredit the death of children in these programs an account of "terminology" that happens to be in opposition to your beliefs? I would encourage you to look past these judgmental tendencies, and be open to take the general message from these sources. Because if you continue to find trivial reasons to discredit and brush off our claims its just the same as burying your head in the sand and ignoring these red flags just to justify yourself and this industry. I challenge you to separate yourself from for a moment from the here and now and try to take an outsiders perspective on the issue as a whole. Yes weigh out the good and the bad but take it all of face value, as much as you want to discredit us believe me it is just as easy for us to discredit your sources... so just take it as it is and weigh it out. I'm confident that deaths, and allegations of abuse far outweigh the few program parents and kids who say (while on the phone with and Ed-Con mind you) that the program helped them. I really encourage you to let your pride and defense of your career go for a single second and realize that you could have been mislead. Although there might be some good that has come out of these programs, most times there is way more bad. and you arent going to get a phone call about it, instead those people are going to be talking to us... and we are relying this to you. We are not liars and we have no ulterior motives here, you must understand we have great reason to have opposing views on this subject and you can either respect that and take from our words what you need to go make a difference, or you can continue to judge and there will be very little good that will ever come from our communications and we will continue to go back and fourth with no resolution.
I dont discredit the deaths of any of the children. If I had the time I would clean up some of the articles myself create a website called” feedback for parents” or “My turn to speak” and turn these into letters to the parents. FemanonFatal, I am not just hard on fornits. I am just as frustrated with the information I get from some of the programs and schools. Their web sites are the polar opposite of fornits and are unwilling to discuss anything negative that occurred to these kids. Some programs outright deny that any child was ever hurt just like fornits denies that any children are ever helped. So it is tough getting clear and believable information from both sides. If you really ever sit and speak with some of these kids who leave the programs and listen to what they have to say you will hear that they struggled, they disliked portions of the program and liked certain staff, disliked others. Some felt the program helped them others felt it was a waste of time. Many kids are equipped with a list of things they would like to see changed or improved.
If you speak with Programs you just get the cream off the top. If you speak to fornits you just get the dirt off the bottom. If you speak to the kids and just listen you get the real story most of the time, but it is important to get “All” the info. I am not saying that the kids on fornits are lying or the programs are lying. You are both just trying to get out the information which will best serve your interests.
I cant mention any names but I have read certain threads where kids are talking about their time and I know certain teachers and staff are the most caring people in the world. I have met them and have received overwhelming feedback from other students who have passed thru, yet every story on this school presented on fornits omits talking about them. Why? I know they must have touched their lives in a positive way or inspired them.
I feel the same about the schools themselves on why they dont discuss their restraint policy with parents or on their web sites and discipline policies etc.
I am glad you came here to speak with us, I would be very happy to see that you were able to change some of your judgments on us and the other survivors that have had the courage to speak out, and to not deny the existence of those who have not. We need someone like you to hear us and take us seriously despite the "terminology" differences in our lingo. You must not see that YOU are in the perfect position to MAKE SURE that kids arent being abused anymore and if you cant do your job properly, then we will simply HAVE to oppose the industry all together.
I have enjoyed and continue to learn by reading (and now speaking) on fornits. I am sorry to be too harsh and appear to be uncaring. I do believe the stories I read here and I realize they are worded to be read by other kids and I am getting use to the lingo and you are right I should get past it. Who am I to try to tell people how to talk to one another.
I place way more kids than I need to for me to get by financially. So if I dont believe a child needs to be placed I recommend against it and I am not driven by who pays the better commission or any commission at all. I need to sleep well at night and look forward to hearing from the families and children. My wall is pasted with families and letters, invitations to graduations which I try to attend when possible.
I am not the most well like education consultant. I have been criticized that I spend too much time with families, make unnecessary trips and have the lowest “contact to placement” ratio or what ever they call it now adays. I love my job . If I get fired tomorrow it means the 2 friends I do have just passed this on to the people who cut the checks. (so be a friend Diane and Holly).
Thank you for treating me kindly. It was difficult to start posting here, It felt good to air my frustrations to someone and I was surprised how much more I learned about you and everyone by posting then just reading. I really enjoy the posting and being able to say what I feel. I sincerely apologize to anyone I was rude too, I would be so embarrassed if we actually met in person,but I guess it made it easier to talk openly knowing that I was anonymous and we would probably never meet.
Kathy
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When I read thru some of the stories I shake my head because I know I cannot direct parents to those sites because it would discredit myself and the agency.
That seems a little inconsistent. You claim you refer them to Fornits and this isn't exactly a parent-friendly site at _all_ (i mean.. shit.. I wouldn't refer parents here, or at least without a lot of warning). My cynical mind immediately thinks "of course... that's the point.. send them to the freak show* to scare them off all critics.") What about ISACCORP? Do you refer them there?
* And I love this freak show. But it takes some getting used to and is hardly parent-friendly (or really anybody-friendly... lol). I mean, would you send parents to a biker bar (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=26332#p320757)?
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I dont discredit the deaths of any of the children. If I had the time I would clean up some of the articles myself create a website called” feedback for parents” or “My turn to speak” and turn these into letters to the parents. FemanonFatal, I am not just hard on fornits. I am just as frustrated with the information I get from some of the programs and schools. Their web sites are the polar opposite of fornits and are unwilling to discuss anything negative that occurred to these kids. Some programs outright deny that any child was ever hurt just like fornits denies that any children are ever helped. So it is tough getting clear and believable information from both sides.
I'm just gonna point something out I said in another thread:
The problems you are seeing with me being on this site is a "red flag". Fornits does not welcome people who see boarding schools as helpful, as I and most others do. Reputable sites, as you probably know, do not attack people who have opposing opinions and post peoples personal information.
The site isn't attacking, you. Individual posters may have. What you would call a "reputable" site is one where all negative or dissenting opinions are deleted or edited out, leaving the illusion that everybody has had a good experience with programs. This illusion is naturally profitible to those who are in charge of the site and are selling referrals. Here is the only truly "free" place on the web can speak any and every opinion imaginable without fear of somebody in charge with a vested interest deleting or editing their post. There is nobody here making sure programs get bad reputations. It's happened naturally.
I can give you names of sites where there is open discussion by people who have attended boarding schools where your information is also secure.
Really? Open discussion you say? Would I be allowed to discuss my views? What you're asking this parent to do is to step into your "bubble" where you control communication. Through controlling the commerce of ideas you control what ideas can be shared, and thus how and what people can think. Again. If the site is so open, would I be allowed in. I have attended a "boarding school" as have many others here. Pam is a parent, as is Buzzkill and many others. Would they be allowed? Would the former staff members on this site be allowed?
I hate to point this out, but when you were talking to Marcy, or whatever her name was, you represented these other sites as a place for "open discussion". Now you say "Their web sites are the polar opposite of fornits and are unwilling to discuss anything negative that occurred to these kids". I'm not accusing you of misrepresenting things, but it certainly seems that way. Perhaps you can explain.
Like it or not, this site is the only place where actual open discussion occurs. It can get damned ugly sometimes, but I'm not sure how that could be avoided given the subject matter. This site is "both sides". You're here. Any bias in the general consensus is natural. As the disclaimer says, it's a snapshot of the Troubled Teen Industry and there is nothign pretty about it.
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When I read thru some of the stories I shake my head because I know I cannot direct parents to those sites because it would discredit myself and the agency.
That seems a little inconsistent. You claim you refer them to Fornits and this isn't exactly a parent-friendly site at _all_ (i mean.. shit.. I wouldn't refer parents here, or at least without a lot of warning). My cynical mind immediately thinks "of course... that's the point.. send them to the freak show* to scare them off all critics.") What about ISACCORP? Do you refer them there?
* And I love this freak show. But it takes some getting used to and is hardly parent-friendly (or really anybody-friendly... lol). I mean, would you send parents to a biker bar (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=26332#p320757)?
There are certain discussions on fornits which I have parents visit by supplying them a link which gives them a feel for the down side of placing a child in a program. I warn them ahead of time that they could be offended if they go off the path I supply them and that the forum is unmonitored.
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I dont discredit the deaths of any of the children. If I had the time I would clean up some of the articles myself create a website called” feedback for parents” or “My turn to speak” and turn these into letters to the parents. FemanonFatal, I am not just hard on fornits. I am just as frustrated with the information I get from some of the programs and schools. Their web sites are the polar opposite of fornits and are unwilling to discuss anything negative that occurred to these kids. Some programs outright deny that any child was ever hurt just like fornits denies that any children are ever helped. So it is tough getting clear and believable information from both sides.
I'm just gonna point something out I said in another thread:
The problems you are seeing with me being on this site is a "red flag". Fornits does not welcome people who see boarding schools as helpful, as I and most others do. Reputable sites, as you probably know, do not attack people who have opposing opinions and post peoples personal information.
The site isn't attacking, you. Individual posters may have. What you would call a "reputable" site is one where all negative or dissenting opinions are deleted or edited out, leaving the illusion that everybody has had a good experience with programs. This illusion is naturally profitible to those who are in charge of the site and are selling referrals. Here is the only truly "free" place on the web can speak any and every opinion imaginable without fear of somebody in charge with a vested interest deleting or editing their post. There is nobody here making sure programs get bad reputations. It's happened naturally.
I can give you names of sites where there is open discussion by people who have attended boarding schools where your information is also secure.
Really? Open discussion you say? Would I be allowed to discuss my views? What you're asking this parent to do is to step into your "bubble" where you control communication. Through controlling the commerce of ideas you control what ideas can be shared, and thus how and what people can think. Again. If the site is so open, would I be allowed in. I have attended a "boarding school" as have many others here. Pam is a parent, as is Buzzkill and many others. Would they be allowed? Would the former staff members on this site be allowed?
I hate to point this out, but when you were talking to Marcy, or whatever her name was, you represented these other sites as a place for "open discussion". Now you say "Their web sites are the polar opposite of fornits and are unwilling to discuss anything negative that occurred to these kids". I'm not accusing you of misrepresenting things, but it certainly seems that way. Perhaps you can explain.
Like it or not, this site is the only place where actual open discussion occurs. It can get damned ugly sometimes, but I'm not sure how that could be avoided given the subject matter. This site is "both sides". You're here. Any bias in the general consensus is natural. As the disclaimer says, it's a snapshot of the Troubled Teen Industry and there is nothign pretty about it.
When “I” speak with the programs some of the contacts I speak with don’t want to discuss the problems they are having or had in the past, which is polar opposite to fornits who typically don’t discuss the good side of programs.
There are groups for “open discussion” on the industry. These are not the same sites. I do not recommend parents to an individual school or programs forum. This would be too restrictive and focused on just that one school. I like parents to be able to get a feel for all schools and the benefits and problems of having a child away from home.
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I hate to point this out, but when you were talking to Marcy, or whatever her name was, you represented these other sites as a place for "open discussion". Now you say "Their web sites are the polar opposite of fornits and are unwilling to discuss anything negative that occurred to these kids". I'm not accusing you of misrepresenting things, but it certainly seems that way. Perhaps you can explain.
"KathyS" has flipflopped on a couple other things too. The whole appearance of "Martha" and how that whole deal went down smells phoney baloney to me. "KathyS" would have us believe that EdCons read this site with great frequency but, quite frankly, I just can't imagine that to be true. I'm sure they read it from time to time, but it is hardly a financially fruitful use of their time.
So why is "KathyS" here all of the time all of a sudden? — "Oh my, I must have an internet addiction!" ::)
This seems more like a fishing expedition for reasons of developing market strategy or trying out venues of damage control, pretty much exactly what TheWho was doing here too.
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KathyS is TheWho.
Nobody comes to fornits for advice. 99.99% of those posts are fakes.
Why doesn't Kathy sign into her screen name? HMMMMMMMM... .I WONDER?
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There are groups for “open discussion” on the industry.
What sites, pray tell, might these "open" places be where discussion of good and bad is permissable? Perhaps they would allow me to voice my opinions, if it's so open. As you have seen, I can be quite diplomatic. Perhaps Pam, Buzzkill, or other parents or ex-staff members could be permitted to speak as well.
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What about ISACCORP? Do you refer them there?
* And I love this freak show. But it takes some getting used to and is hardly parent-friendly (or really anybody-friendly... lol). I mean, would you send parents to a biker bar (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=26332#p320757)?
There are certain discussions on fornits which I have parents visit by supplying them a link which gives them a feel for the down side of placing a child in a program.
Such as?
I warn them ahead of time that they could be offended if they go off the path I supply them and that the forum is unmonitored.
Ok. Fair enough. but do you refer them to isaccorp? That's a great informational website with a good list of warning signs and a high threshold for putting a program on it's watchlist.
Here's another question: could you get fired if you referred a parent to isaccorp?
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What sites, pray tell, might these "open" places be where discussion of good and bad is permissable? Perhaps they would allow me to voice my opinions, if it's so open. As you have seen, I can be quite diplomatic. Perhaps Pam, Buzzkill, or other parents or ex-staff members could be permitted to speak as well.
There are discussion groups which are set up in a yahoo group account. These groups are for parents who have children in a program or are considering sending their child to a program. There is a moderator who grants access. I have nothing to do with it but I do refer them as I do fornits.
Such as?
If I tell everyone the thread it will get re activated and ruined I fear. Its better if I dont bring it up. Well, I should not have
Ok. Fair enough. but do you refer them to isaccorp? That's a great informational website with a good list of warning signs and a high threshold for putting a program on it's watchlist.
Here's another question: could you get fired if you referred a parent to isaccorp?
Yes, Because we refer to schools/programs which are on their list. This is in direct conflict with what we do.
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How is ISACCORP in direct conflict? All they try to do is provide objective information warning parents of substantiated accounts of abuse, not to mention warning signs about programs. Are you telling me that if a parent came to you and you knew there was information on ISAC about a school you refer to, you wouldn't let them know about... It just seems to me like that's trying to be a bit deceptive to parents.. hiding information. What do you tell them if they ask if there have been any allegations of abuse?
It is telling, though, that you would be fired if you referred to ISAC. Thank you for answering that honestly. I can't see how you can stomach that, honestly.
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How is ISACCORP in direct conflict? All they try to do is provide objective information warning parents of substantiated accounts of abuse, not to mention warning signs about programs. Are you telling me that if a parent came to you and you knew there was information on ISAC about a school you refer to, you wouldn't let them know about... It just seems to me like that's trying to be a bit deceptive to parents.. hiding information. What do you tell them if they ask if there have been any allegations of abuse?
We are not in agreement with all the schools on their list and some of the dialog so we don’t refer to it. We don’t withhold information. We are not hiding anything. There are areas we don’t agree with. How many times do you refer people to strugglingteens.com? or promote positive aspects of programs? Would you consider that deceptive? I can honestly say that I inform parents with as much credible information as I can provide to help them make a decision.
It is telling, though, that you would be fired if you referred to ISAC. Thank you for answering that honestly. I can't see how you can stomach that, honestly.
Argh, Sometimes it gets to me, but every business has some rules that you have to put up with. I have never worked with a company where I agreed with everything and if it rubs me too much I move on or get fired.
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How is ISACCORP in direct conflict? All they try to do is provide objective information warning parents of substantiated accounts of abuse, not to mention warning signs about programs. Are you telling me that if a parent came to you and you knew there was information on ISAC about a school you refer to, you wouldn't let them know about... It just seems to me like that's trying to be a bit deceptive to parents.. hiding information. What do you tell them if they ask if there have been any allegations of abuse?
We are not in agreement with all the schools on their list and some of the dialog so we don’t refer to it. We don’t withhold information. We are not hiding anything.
No, but if there are allegations of abuse against a program, you sure won't tell parents about it, now will you? It seems like the bottom line has taken precedence over the welfare of the kids and families. Not sure how you rationalize that away, but it's your conscience, not mine. So you got into this to help kids, you say?
Sorry. I'm not trying to judge, but it's hard not to when you're more or less admitting you stand by and let parents send their kids into potentially dangerous situations without full knowledge. Letting something happen when you could stop it is just as bad as participating directly. Sure you don't have a legal responsibility to tell them, maybe... but ethical? Moral? Human? These parents trust you with their kids. The least you can give them is a fully informed decision.
What do I do? Well. if the parents get to me, they've already heard the industry's side of things. I just present the "other side" and I don't particularly pretend to be un-biased, either. When I explain things to parents, I say "you may have heard this, and here is the counterargument...". I always address both sides. You have to if you're going to change minds. My job is to un-balance, things, the way I see it, and I'm pretty up-front about that.
I can honestly say that I inform parents with as much credible information as I can provide to help them make a decision.
As long as it doesn't conflict with a school you refer to, right? Think about it.
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Guest: I have internal information, but I would need to strip the header and would not be able to post the entire report due to legal complications because they dont belong to me, so I am posting something similar but accurate:
The Family Foundation School is accredited as a school by the Middle States Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, the New York State Department of Education and is accredited as a behavioral health care facility by the Joint Commission
1. From 2004 through 2008, all Family Foundation School graduates have been accepted at postsecondary institutions, with 85 percent to four-year colleges and 15 percent to two-year schools or professional training.
2. A Family Foundation School Alumni Association was established after the school held its first alumni reunion in September 2006. More than 125 former students from around the United States attended the reunion
3. The school's English and Philosophy instructor and middle school principal, Jan Cheripko, is the author of nine books, has won numerous national and international book awards and has been a featured speaker at the National Council of Teachers of English, the International Reading Association, and numerous other New York State and Northeastern U.S. regional education conferences. He has also conducted graduate teaching accredited workshops on how to reach at-risk students through writing and literature
4. After the hearings:
The school responded by declaring their support of the efforts of the committee to keep children safe from harm, adding that they had since modified their crisis-management methods to meet the standards of both the New York State Department of Education and the Therapeutic Crisis Intervention (TCI) program developed by Cornell University. The school also stated that since 1999, all school faculty and staff are required to be trained in Therapeutic Crisis Intervention techniques.
5. The Family Foundation School's extracurricular programs include sports teams, drama productions, musical programs, an art department and a wide variety of clubs.
6. The school's performing arts program presents full-scale musicals, drama productions, winter and spring choral concerts that are open to the public. and is a regular participant in the North American Music Festivals.
7. In 2004 and 2005, the school's debating team won the Seventh annual Delaware-Otsego Bar Associations Forensic Speech Tournament, a regional debating competition.
8. The school soccer team won the championship in the New York State Class D, Section IX Conference in 2005. FFS alumnus Wells Thompson plays Major League Soccer for the New England Revolution
Do you still think it is a secret society of thought reform and torture? You need to distance yourselves from web sites like “stories for the Gulag” and the other one which actually seemed worse but I cant remember its name. You should try reading more main stream information to get more a perspective.
Way to just take stuff off the wikipedia advertising page. There are way too many things wrong with the FFS "response to the testimony" to even go into here. If you want to have an honest dialogue about FFS I'm more than willing to go far into detail, but my time is limited, so I don't have the ability to be here on fornits nearly enough to go into this. While the facts you see from the wiki may be impressive, the school ALSO had a suicide in 2004, despite having an 8 to 1 student to staff ratio. The testimonies of students ranging from 2 years out, to 10 years out, report much of the same abuse. Even the response FFS issued simply states that the "blankets" were "in accordance with first aid for seizures" at the time. Even if you believe that hogwash, it mentions NOTHING about the use of DUCT TAPE to wrap kids up and leave them in isolation rooms covered in piss for DAYS!! Just because some success stories happen in the way of grades, and even athletics in a school where kids have NO ACCESS to anything else in the outside world does not mean it is not a thought reform program. Why not look at the fact that most, if not all, of the alumni from the earlier years suffer from severe PTSD, all have nightmares about their stays at FFS, and that some have reported being MOLESTED by Paul Geer, the musical director, as evidence that something is awry? If you do your "research" from wikipedia and calling FFS and the list of cherry picked graduates and families that they refer you to, OF COURSE the school looks good. Why not get a list of ALL students willing to talk. Go to the myspace group. Go to the facebook group. Call Jennie Yabroff at Newsweek for HER notes after doing interviews with a long list of students that FFS thought would give great info to counter the testimonies....and they too were wrong. The students, even those saying good things, all admitted to levels of abuse and torture.
What will help you see you are WRONG???? FFS is NOT SAFE!!!
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I don't think Obama is going to win because he is black. Sara pailin is a regular six pack joe like me and I hope that she becomes president. If Mikane can win since he is old there is a good change Sara will run next time and be our leader.
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No, but if there are allegations of abuse against a program, you sure won't tell parents about it, now will you? It seems like the bottom line has taken precedence over the welfare of the kids and families. Not sure how you rationalize that away, but it's your conscience, not mine. So you got into this to help kids, you say?
Where did that come from? I stated that we don’t refer to certain web sites. We don’t with hold any information which we feel is credible or would impact placement or a childs welfare.
Sorry. I'm not trying to judge, but it's hard not to when you're more or less admitting you stand by and let parents send their kids into potentially dangerous situations without full knowledge. Letting something happen when you could stop it is just as bad as participating directly. Sure you don't have a legal responsibility to tell them, maybe... but ethical? Moral? Human? These parents trust you with their kids. The least you can give them is a fully informed decision.
You misunderstood what I have said. If you have read what I have said so far you would know that I always put the kids first. If I felt they were going to be in any danger I would not be part of the referral and would try to stopit. I have done it in the past.
What do I do? Well. if the parents get to me, they've already heard the industry's side of things. I just present the "other side" and I don't particularly pretend to be un-biased, either. When I explain things to parents, I say "you may have heard this, and here is the counterargument...". I always address both sides. You have to if you're going to change minds. My job is to un-balance, things, the way I see it, and I'm pretty up-front about that.
Actually your job as a humanitarian is to be fair and open, Michael. If you withhold information you could deny a child getting the help he/she needs. I could take the same position as you and assume the parents have already read all the bad stuff about programs. I don’t need to refer them to fornits or “tales from the gulag” or warn them about the dangers, I can assume they already know that like you do.
As long as it doesn't conflict with a school you refer to, right? Think about it.
You are very wrong in accusing me this way and you know it. You want others to be honest but you live by your own rules, think about it. I am surprised of all people you would acuse others without knowing them.
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I understand that you might fear for your job if you answer this honestly, but for the sake of the greater good I hope that you may lead by example here.
What if, a referral or "ed-con" service existed that was on first priority dedicated to protecting the rights and ensuring the welfare of the children it placed. Enough to become the ONLY referral service that 100% guaranteed that any child placed by them would not be abused or the parent would be assisted with the help of the company to take legal action against the offending staff or program. What if the programs were under strict regulation contract by this referral company that included specific principals of good practice, extensive background checks, unannounced visits and access to Child Protective Services and possibly a security system. What if licensing, health codes, medical, psychological and educational standards were all strictly enforced, and a "tough love" program were converted to a "real love" program. Would you work for a company that upheld these values? and furthermore, how could you work for a company that does not? especially when teen's lives are at stake here.
I just wanted to let you know that I have plans to create a parent site, a site that will essentially spoon feed this information in a way that they are able to take seriously. I can't change the stories of the individuals who wrote about their experience but I would be willing to post stories from students who felt that the program did some good, and allow the parent to weigh the pros and cons. IN FACT I could also include a worksheet they can use to do their research to properly evaluate the pros and cons. My only concern is that some parents are so desperate to get their child into treatment that they are not willing to put in the time it takes to do the proper screening, instead they hire someone like you to do that job for them. I would be much happier to see you and all Ed-Con's alike to develop a proper investigation process and refuse to refer to any school that has allegations of abuse against them. I would also recommend you put your foot down with referring to a program run by staff that have allegations of abuse against them or ran any programs that had similar problems. Making a moral statement like, "Abuse is not something we will tolerate!" and only give your business to the schools that really are doing it right. If this isn't something your office can handle, I recommend that you encourage them to hire a team who can. Hell, hire me. This is a plan I hope can be developed in conjunction with government regulation, and I intend to be part of that team, but as that hasn't become a reality yet, I wouldn't mind giving your "team" some pointers if they are willing.
I can only hope something good come of all this. I am sorry if you have felt attacked, it is our nature after all, to distrust. But I do believe that you are a good person, however misguided you may be, I believe there is hope that you are willing to do the right thing.
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How is ISACCORP in direct conflict? All they try to do is provide objective information warning parents of substantiated accounts of abuse, not to mention warning signs about programs. Are you telling me that if a parent came to you and you knew there was information on ISAC about a school you refer to, you wouldn't let them know about... It just seems to me like that's trying to be a bit deceptive to parents.. hiding information. What do you tell them if they ask if there have been any allegations of abuse?
We are not in agreement with all the schools on their list and some of the dialog so we don’t refer to it. We don’t withhold information. We are not hiding anything. There are areas we don’t agree with. How many times do you refer people to strugglingteens.com? or promote positive aspects of programs? Would you consider that deceptive? I can honestly say that I inform parents with as much credible information as I can provide to help them make a decision.
1.) "Some of the dialog" on IsacCorp is objectionable? Is there any "dialog" on IsacCorp? Seems to me that for the most part it is just people's testimony in the form of sworn statements, court documents, and news articles, etc. Whatever informative portions that IsacCorp is responsible for writing are incredibly restrained, if anything. Certainly there is no "dialog." It doesn't sound like "KathyS" has ever been to their website.
2.) How is not referring parents to IsacCorp NOT equivalent to withholding information on a particular program, when you know that there is information on that particular program on IsacCorp? This sounds to me like typical spin marketing, where an incorrect inference about a product is brought about by the deliberate omission of some actually very relevant information. While not technically a lie, the desired associations and impressions brought about in the consumer are a lie. Some might even call it fraudulent advertising.
3.) As to material from Struggling Teens, there is actually quite a lot of it posted here on fornits, complete with links. Doesn't sound so "deceptive" to me. It sounds like "KathyS" has actually done very little reading on fornits prior to her entrance via the ruse of gool ol' Martha!
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http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 0505.shtml (http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/FamilyFoundationSchoolBN_080505.shtml)
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Apparently the alleged changes have not been as broad or far-reaching as claimed (comment at bottom of link):
December 08, 2008
I am quite upset with the response from the family school. They said these actions took place years ago and that things have evolved from then. That's not all true, I graduated from FFS December 2004 and still remember the things I went through. They bothered me for a long time and they still do till this day.
Darrillyn Boyce
[email protected]
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I understand that you might fear for your job if you answer this honestly, but for the sake of the greater good I hope that you may lead by example here.
What if, a referral or "ed-con" service existed that was on first priority dedicated to protecting the rights and ensuring the welfare of the children it placed. Enough to become the ONLY referral service that 100% guaranteed that any child placed by them would not be abused or the parent would be assisted with the help of the company to take legal action against the offending staff or program. What if the programs were under strict regulation contract by this referral company that included specific principals of good practice, extensive background checks, unannounced visits and access to Child Protective Services and possibly a security system. What if licensing, health codes, medical, psychological and educational standards were all strictly enforced, and a "tough love" program were converted to a "real love" program. Would you work for a company that upheld these values? and furthermore, how could you work for a company that does not? especially when teen's lives are at stake here.
In a perfect world that would be ideal and I would love to be part of that business. It is something we could all work towards. I have to work in the world that I have. If that job existed I would quit my job tomorrow and go work for them.
I just wanted to let you know that I have plans to create a parent site, a site that will essentially spoon feed this information in a way that they are able to take seriously. I can't change the stories of the individuals who wrote about their experience but I would be willing to post stories from students who felt that the program did some good, and allow the parent to weigh the pros and cons. IN FACT I could also include a worksheet they can use to do their research to properly evaluate the pros and cons. My only concern is that some parents are so desperate to get their child into treatment that they are not willing to put in the time it takes to do the proper screening, instead they hire someone like you to do that job for them. I would be much happier to see you and all Ed-Con's alike to develop a proper investigation process and refuse to refer to any school that has allegations of abuse against them. I would also recommend you put your foot down with referring to a program run by staff that have allegations of abuse against them or ran any programs that had similar problems. Making a moral statement like, "Abuse is not something we will tolerate!" and only give your business to the schools that really are doing it right. If this isn't something your office can handle, I recommend that you encourage them to hire a team who can. Hell, hire me. This is a plan I hope can be developed in conjunction with government regulation, and I intend to be part of that team, but as that hasn't become a reality yet, I wouldn't mind giving your "team" some pointers if they are willing.
I am all ears. There is very little that I can do in my current position to make changes. I am too well known for rocking the boat as it is. It would be difficult to get parents attention long enough in the beginning because by the time they seek out an ed con they are in crisis. They are looking for solutions quickly. Sometimes if the child is isolated from the immediate problems or danger then the parents are able to focus on what is best long term and can be in a better position to weigh options and do research and proper screening on their own. Many families work on this while the child is in wilderness or in a 30 day evaluation/program. This would be a good time to approach them with you worksheet to help guide them thru to the next step.
You should keep at what you are doing and persue it,its a good idea. If I could test out your worksheets for you I would. But I would be fired for sure and I cant afford that right now.
I can only hope something good come of all this. I am sorry if you have felt attacked, it is our nature after all, to distrust. But I do believe that you are a good person, however misguided you may be, I believe there is hope that you are willing to do the right thing.
There has been much good that has come out of this so far for me. I have learned a few things about myself. Thank you for your kind words.
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As to material from Struggling Teens, there is actually quite a lot of it posted here on fornits, complete with links. Doesn't sound so "deceptive" to me.
We do the same thing. We share the information with parents, we just don’t refer them to the site. Similar to fornits.
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Here's another question: could you get fired if you referred a parent to isaccorp?
Yes, Because we refer to schools/programs which are on their list. This is in direct conflict with what we do.
We are not in agreement with all the schools on their list and some of the dialog so we don’t refer to it. We don’t withhold information. We are not hiding anything.
In a perfect world that would be ideal and I would love to be part of that business. It is something we could all work towards. I have to work in the world that I have. If that job existed I would quit my job tomorrow and go work for them.
As to material from Struggling Teens, there is actually quite a lot of it posted here on fornits, complete with links. Doesn't sound so "deceptive" to me.
We do the same thing. We share the information with parents, we just don’t refer them to the site. Similar to fornits.
Kathy, as an uneducated moron, you don’t appreciate the difference between anon internet users posting certain links & you, in your position as contracted “education consultant,” concealing evidence of torture about an organization you push.
Ideally, after reading multiple sworn testimonies of systematic false imprisonment and systematic torture a light-bulb would go off and you’d think, "hey, these FFS people shouldn't be allowed to hold kids in involentary confinement." Sadly, you are evil/stupid, so you don’t make that connection.
The fact remains, however, you are legally and ethically obligated to not conceal evidence of torture you know exists about a gulag you are selling
It is interesting to learn that there is a deliberate conspiracy on the part of your company to conceal that sort of information from clients.
Nice to have informed us that you purposely engage in conspiracy, fraud, conspiracy to commit false imprisonment and abuse, negligence of due care and a variety of other crimes.
Congratulations, you’ve just confessed. Anyone up for I.P. subpoenas?
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Guest: I have internal information, but I would need to strip the header and would not be able to post the entire report due to legal complications because they dont belong to me, so I am posting something similar but accurate:
The Family Foundation School is accredited as a school by the Middle States Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, the New York State Department of Education and is accredited as a behavioral health care facility by the Joint Commission
1. From 2004 through 2008, all Family Foundation School graduates have been accepted at postsecondary institutions, with 85 percent to four-year colleges and 15 percent to two-year schools or professional training.
2. A Family Foundation School Alumni Association was established after the school held its first alumni reunion in September 2006. More than 125 former students from around the United States attended the reunion
3. The school's English and Philosophy instructor and middle school principal, Jan Cheripko, is the author of nine books, has won numerous national and international book awards and has been a featured speaker at the National Council of Teachers of English, the International Reading Association, and numerous other New York State and Northeastern U.S. regional education conferences. He has also conducted graduate teaching accredited workshops on how to reach at-risk students through writing and literature
4. After the hearings:
The school responded by declaring their support of the efforts of the committee to keep children safe from harm, adding that they had since modified their crisis-management methods to meet the standards of both the New York State Department of Education and the Therapeutic Crisis Intervention (TCI) program developed by Cornell University. The school also stated that since 1999, all school faculty and staff are required to be trained in Therapeutic Crisis Intervention techniques.
5. The Family Foundation School's extracurricular programs include sports teams, drama productions, musical programs, an art department and a wide variety of clubs.
6. The school's performing arts program presents full-scale musicals, drama productions, winter and spring choral concerts that are open to the public. and is a regular participant in the North American Music Festivals.
7. In 2004 and 2005, the school's debating team won the Seventh annual Delaware-Otsego Bar Associations Forensic Speech Tournament, a regional debating competition.
8. The school soccer team won the championship in the New York State Class D, Section IX Conference in 2005. FFS alumnus Wells Thompson plays Major League Soccer for the New England Revolution
Do you still think it is a secret society of thought reform and torture? You need to distance yourselves from web sites like “stories for the Gulag” and the other one which actually seemed worse but I cant remember its name. You should try reading more main stream information to get more a perspective.
Way to just take stuff off the wikipedia advertising page. There are way too many things wrong with the FFS "response to the testimony" to even go into here. If you want to have an honest dialogue about FFS I'm more than willing to go far into detail, but my time is limited, so I don't have the ability to be here on fornits nearly enough to go into this. While the facts you see from the wiki may be impressive, the school ALSO had a suicide in 2004, despite having an 8 to 1 student to staff ratio. The testimonies of students ranging from 2 years out, to 10 years out, report much of the same abuse. Even the response FFS issued simply states that the "blankets" were "in accordance with first aid for seizures" at the time. Even if you believe that hogwash, it mentions NOTHING about the use of DUCT TAPE to wrap kids up and leave them in isolation rooms covered in piss for DAYS!! Just because some success stories happen in the way of grades, and even athletics in a school where kids have NO ACCESS to anything else in the outside world does not mean it is not a thought reform program. Why not look at the fact that most, if not all, of the alumni from the earlier years suffer from severe PTSD, all have nightmares about their stays at FFS, and that some have reported being MOLESTED by Paul Geer, the musical director, as evidence that something is awry? If you do your "research" from wikipedia and calling FFS and the list of cherry picked graduates and families that they refer you to, OF COURSE the school looks good. Why not get a list of ALL students willing to talk. Go to the myspace group. Go to the facebook group. Call Jennie Yabroff at Newsweek for HER notes after doing interviews with a long list of students that FFS thought would give great info to counter the testimonies....and they too were wrong. The students, even those saying good things, all admitted to levels of abuse and torture.
What will help you see you are WRONG???? FFS is NOT SAFE!!!
HI JOHN,
CAN YOU ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS FOR ME:
Pursued charges against the FFS administration?
Have you reported your experience to the police in that district?
What about suing?
Thanks.
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Congratulations, you’ve just confessed. Anyone up for I.P. subpoenas?
I don't think there is a crime here, actually. What Kathy has done, as far as I know, is perfectly legal (it might be a civil matter though, afaik). Second, Fornits protects the IP info of all posters. Even the industry members. If they felt it was not safe to post here, this would become a totally one-sided discussion and then this site would be little better than one of theirs. Personally, I have found this discussion incredibly interesting in that it provides insight into the mind of an educational consultant. I think parents reading this thread might reconsider hiring one. That's the real value here, and far more useful than any one court victory, criminal or civil.
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As long as it doesn't conflict with a school you refer to, right? Think about it.
You are very wrong in accusing me this way and you know it.
Maybe, maybe not. Which is why I put "think about it". Maybe a little reflection on what you're doing, placed in context, might make you reconsider what you're doing.
You want others to be honest but you live by your own rules, think about it. I am surprised of all people you would acuse others without knowing them.
Well. I'm not trying to judge and I apologize if I was a bit harsh. That being said, It seems fairly simple to me. You claim that you refer parents to both sides of things... Yet you exclude ISACcorp because they include information on schools you refer to. Is ISAC not credible? LOL. It's hard to make that argument. In any case the fact of the matter is that which schools you refer to influences the information you share with parents. As you said, If you referred to ISACcorp you would be fired since they have schools you refer to on their watchlist. I can't see the motive in that other than to deceive parents by omission. Do you ever share any negative information about the schools you refer to... such as allegations of abuse by Jon Martin and the GAO, in the case of FFS? Why such a devotion to those schools. Is not the welfare of the kids what comes first? Shouldn't parents be able to decide whether information is credible and be able to make a fully informed decision?
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Well. I'm not trying to judge and I apologize if I was a bit harsh. That being said, It seems fairly simple to me. You claim that you refer parents to both sides of things... Yet you exclude ISACcorp because they include information on schools you refer to. Is ISAC not credible? LOL. It's hard to make that argument. In any case the fact of the matter is that which schools you refer to influences the information you share with parents. As you said, If you referred to ISACcorp you would be fired since they have schools you refer to on their watchlist. I can't see the motive in that other than to deceive parents by omission.
I was curious so I took a look this morning. We have 78 schools on our DNR list (do not refer), but 3 of the schools on issacorps list use to be on our list but have been removed from our list, so we refer to them (this is why we donot refer parents to the site at this time). I don’t have the reason that they have been removed but I would guess it is because they have resolved specific issues. To give issacorp the benefit of the doubt it may be that they have not updated their web site in awhile and are not as current as we are. Our list is updated as soon as information is received. Since we flag 78 schools as DNR and isaccorp only flags 63 shows we must have a more stringent set of guidelines than they do.
I would be willing to guess that as soon as Isac updates their list we would refer parents to them. But is it fair to the schools to penalize them because Isac hasnt gotten around to updating their site?
Do you ever share any negative information about the schools you refer to... such as allegations of abuse by Jon Martin and the GAO, in the case of FFS? Why such a devotion to those schools. Is not the welfare of the kids what comes first? Shouldn't parents be able to decide whether information is credible and be able to make a fully informed decision?
We share as much information as we have on each school. If FFS is a good match for a particular student , we recommend the placement and then we ask the parents if they are aware of the GAO hearings and the problems they have had and we go from there and try to answer all the questions as they are placed to us. We have full disclosure so that parents can make the best decision possible and there are no problems down the road.
On the other hand when “you” speak to parents you withhold information which could save the life of a child because of your personal bias and unfounded judgements. Why wouldn’t you recommend that parents visit strugglingteens.com so that they can see both sides of the issue? You told me that they already have this information, but how do you know?
Doesnt it ever bother you that a parent may come onto fornits and decide not to get help for their child and that child and family would suffer because of it?
Are you aware that FFS is not on isac watch list? Just something to think about.
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I am all ears. There is very little that I can do in my current position to make changes. I am too well known for rocking the boat as it is.
Then Kathy it's high time you start your own business. I'm surprised being required to refer to programs you are aware on abuse watchlists doesn't weigh heavy on your conscious. I understand you are under the impression that you are doing the right thing, and these schools are helpful for teens, but what I believe we have tried to impress upon you is that the information you have based these judgments on are very limited in the scope of the truth. The only way you would be able to know for a fact if a program is truly a good program is if you have used the methods I mentioned before, and NOT ONE referral service does these things.
Consider this... If I ran a referral service for say, home remodeling sub contractors and I based my recommendations on the marketing materials and client testimonials the company provided for me I might not be getting the whole story. Without inspecting their prior work myself and digging for a wide range of customers satisfied or not, I would really be putting my reputation on the line and be the asshole who referred a client to get screwed. Well, in the case of the Troubled Teen Industry your not only putting your reputation and moral conscious on the line here but you are also putting this teens life and those of their family in jeopardy. Why is it that the policy for referring kitchen cabinets is more lax then referring programs? Do you see our issues here? Do you see why we feel that Ed-Cons are primarily part of the problem?
My problem is not with you personally, (despite possibly your judgments on grammar vs significance) but with this Ed-Con industry. You guys have got it dead wrong, and with just a few policy changes (which would require you to stop discrediting survivors) this "referral" industry could completely change the Troubled Teen Industry and set a standard for the future of higher education in America. What I don't understand is why this hasn't happened yet, and why people would rather create layers of lies to dismiss and cover things up than to truly help these teens.
Maybe this is just an important topic for me, please understand I have had insomnia for many years now and the things I think about are how to actually implement the fundamental changes to make a difference. I also have a strategic mind and this problem has been given many hours of thought toward a solution. I honestly wish I had the money, power and time to hire a team and put these plans into motion, maybe even start my own school. But for now I guess my only option is to ask why those who do have the money and the power are cutting so many corners and destroying peoples lives.
I know this thread has been long lost by now, but I guess I wanted to just top off our conversation with the conclusion that if you are willing to stand for what is moral and good and right, you wont be the one out of a job. Change is on its way, and I must warn you that what you see on Fornits is like the front bakery for the underground tunnel that is this movement. It wont be long till we reach the camp on the other side and take out our enemy and that is going to be the time where you realized what side of the fence you were really on.
However I do thank you for how willing you have been to talk to us, listen to us and do your best to relate to us. and I do think you are a genuinely good person with good intentions, and that's why I hope that someday you will see things just a little bit differently and choose to act differently.
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Some Obama quotes:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... obama.html (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/barack_obama.html)
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Then Kathy it's high time you start your own business. I'm surprised being required to refer to programs you are aware on abuse watchlists doesn't weigh heavy on your conscious. I understand you are under the impression that you are doing the right thing, and these schools are helpful for teens, but what I believe we have tried to impress upon you is that the information you have based these judgments on are very limited in the scope of the truth. The only way you would be able to know for a fact if a program is truly a good program is if you have used the methods I mentioned before, and NOT ONE referral service does these things.
There are many methods that I can use to determine if a program is good or not. We have field reports, speaking to graduates, we look at isaccorp, strugglingteens, parents who have had kids placed. If I felt even for a moment that a child was in danger I would never place that child.
Consider this... If I ran a referral service for say, home remodeling sub contractors and I based my recommendations on the marketing materials and client testimonials the company provided for me I might not be getting the whole story. Without inspecting their prior work myself and digging for a wide range of customers satisfied or not, I would really be putting my reputation on the line and be the asshole who referred a client to get screwed. Well, in the case of the Troubled Teen Industry your not only putting your reputation and moral conscious on the line here but you are also putting this teens life and those of their family in jeopardy. Why is it that the policy for referring kitchen cabinets is more lax then referring programs? Do you see our issues here? Do you see why we feel that Ed-Cons are primarily part of the problem?
I see what you are saying, but I do as much research as I can prior to placement. I don’t just rely on what the schools tells us. A person who recommends sub contractors would rely heavily on feed back from customers and certificates/experience that the contractors earned. There was another thread which was discussing Education consultants earning a certificate (CEP). When an Ed-con earns certificates or gets training this it shows they are dedicated and want to get better and learn more about their business. These are the types of people you want to hire. If I were selling sub contractors to install kitchen cabinets I would have to do the same. I wouldn’t think it reasonable to visit every site and inspect the work. I would need to rely on certifications and experienced people in the field. I think we are part of the problem if we do not do the necessary work to insure a child is placed properly. So if I understand you I think what you are saying is if all Ed-cons were required to be certified to a certain level then you would feel a little more comfortable? Because we are also an important part of the solution too. Maybe I missed your point.
My problem is not with you personally, (despite possibly your judgments on grammar vs significance) but with this Ed-Con industry. You guys have got it dead wrong, and with just a few policy changes (which would require you to stop discrediting survivors) this "referral" industry could completely change the Troubled Teen Industry and set a standard for the future of higher education in America. What I don't understand is why this hasn't happened yet, and why people would rather create layers of lies to dismiss and cover things up than to truly help these teens.
You are hung up on the language thing and I think you misunderstand my meaning. I don’t discredit survivors stories, as you put it. I am use to the language now. On your kitchen cabinet idea, suppose I called a customer to ask how their kitchen cabinet installation went and I heard: “Well the guy showed up to install our "plate prisons" and immediately suggested we place our dog in isolation and even gave us names of people who could kidnap little rover while he was sleeping. He abused and brutalized our entire kitchen and one of the plate prison installers denied us access to food and water for a period of time. One guy was nice enough to install a “corner rotation Gulag” so that we could place all our canned goods in isolation for their entire shelf life.”
If there were a group of people who spoke like this I would still refer business to them but I wouldn’t use them as a reference to speak with prospective customers. Not because they were not being honest, but because they use uncommon terms and would be confusing to new customers. I am not criticizing your language or discrediting you. It just doesn’t work well outside your group.
To answer you last question I believe we are changing the industry. Our company has many schools and programs which we do not refer to and have sent notice to them letting them know our concerns. As the schools/programs become more specialized the role for ed-cons will become more important in determining which school is the better fit. Parents will rely on us more and more to help them thru the maze of programs which are becoming available. It use to be a one size fits all, and placement was determine by affordability and closest location. Not anymore. I feel we have gained a tremendous amount of power in this industry and will make a great effect on it.
Maybe this is just an important topic for me, please understand I have had insomnia for many years now and the things I think about are how to actually implement the fundamental changes to make a difference. I also have a strategic mind and this problem has been given many hours of thought toward a solution. I honestly wish I had the money, power and time to hire a team and put these plans into motion, maybe even start my own school. But for now I guess my only option is to ask why those who do have the money and the power are cutting so many corners and destroying peoples lives.
You understand the needs of the industry pretty good I would say. The difficult part is that there is only so much you can do and still remain in business. So you need to balance things. If you hire too many people on your team you will go broke, too little and you may not get enough done which would not be good for the child you are trying to place.
I know this thread has been long lost by now,
No, I am still here. I read almost every day now or atleast check in quickly. I fear I pushed back at Michael a little too hard so he has moved on.
but I guess I wanted to just top off our conversation with the conclusion that if you are willing to stand for what is moral and good and right, you wont be the one out of a job. Change is on its way, and I must warn you that what you see on Fornits is like the front bakery for the underground tunnel that is this movement. It wont be long till we reach the camp on the other side and take out our enemy and that is going to be the time where you realized what side of the fence you were really on.
However I do thank you for how willing you have been to talk to us, listen to us and do your best to relate to us. and I do think you are a genuinely good person with good intentions, and that's why I hope that someday you will see things just a little bit differently and choose to act differently.
I think that my time as an ed-con is short, maybe another year. I am planning on moving on to another job which requires me to relocate. But part of me will always be rooting for kids to find themselves and find a happy path in life. I hope you get the opportunity to work closely with an education consultant someday so that you can see what they do and how challenging their job is. Many perceive it as just placing a child collecting a fee and moving on and it is not. I think as a whole we get a bad rap here on fornits. Either way I hope you can find your place in all of this, you seems to be dedicated to helping kids out and your heart is in the right place. Thanks for being kind, femanon.
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You are hung up on the language thing and I think you misunderstand my meaning. I don’t discredit survivors stories, as you put it. I am use to the language now. On your kitchen cabinet idea, suppose I called a customer to ask how their kitchen cabinet installation went and I heard: “Well the guy showed up to install our "plate prisons" and immediately suggested we place our dog in isolation and even gave us names of people who could kidnap little rover while he was sleeping. He abused and brutalized our entire kitchen and one of the plate prison installers denied us access to food and water for a period of time. One guy was nice enough to install a “corner rotation Gulag” so that we could place all our canned goods in isolation for their entire shelf life.”
"Gulag," "cult" and "torture" are terms understandable to everyone but the people who want to discredit accounts of "torture" and "brainwashing" which go on in the "gulags" they earn their living from.
Your continued claim these terms are applied inappropriately is outrageous.
Here’s the definition of torture :
Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is:
“ Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.
Gulag—a prison where detainees are held without trial or access to the courts, habeas corpus, or due process.
“Cultic abuse” “gulag” and “torture” have been defined for you 8 times. I do not apply these terms haphazardly or nonsensically like you do in your example above. But you continue to state we apply these words inappropriately, thereby discrediting our accounts of torture in cultic-gulags. In so many words, you say that survivors who say they were tortured, brutalized and held prisoner in gulags are lying.
http://www.amazon.com/American-GULAG-Se ... 1930418019 (http://www.amazon.com/American-GULAG-Secret-P-O-W-Camps/dp/1930418019)
"An American Gulag: Secert POW Camps for teens" is a successful book written by author Alexia Park
http://consciouswoman.org/2008/01/04/co ... uary-2008/ (http://consciouswoman.org/2008/01/04/conscious-woman-of-the-month-january-2008/)
She, like anyone not personally profiting from what amounts to the murder of children, understands the English language.
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"Gulag," "cult" and "torture" are terms understandable to everyone but the people who want to discredit accounts of "torture" and "brainwashing" which go on in the "gulags" they earn their living from.
Indeed!! Besides, I daresay it's time people here shut the fuck up about terms used, isn't it?
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"Gulag," "cult" and "torture" are terms understandable to everyone but the people who want to discredit accounts of "torture" and "brainwashing" which go on in the "gulags" they earn their living from.
Not true this is a total misconception on your part. I don’t usually strongly disagree here but you are way off. I talk to parents all the time and they have no reason to discredit accounts of torture and brainwashing nor do they earn their living from any of this and they would not associate these terms with boarding schools or programs I can assure you.
Gulag is a Russian forced labor camp. The word prison doesn’t apply either because Kids don’t have access to the court systems except thru their parents until they come of age and then they can sign themselves out anyway, so there is no law broken or denial of due process.
Torture involves “severe” pain which is the highest level of pain, for the purpose of extracting a confession , bamboo sticks under the finger nails, chopping of a finger, Chinese water torture etc.. I am sure there could be some examples of a child being in severe pain, but it is not something that is representative of this industry.
I understand that you use these terms as a shock value or to pump up some hype between yourselfs. I am not being critical of that. It is the way you feel and a good way for you to communicate between yourselves to release anger and frustration. I have been reading here enough to understand that
In so many words, you say that survivors who say they were tortured, brutalized and held prisoner in gulags are lying.
I am so surprised that you said this, everyone I have ever talked to would know that kids are not “literally” held prisoners in gulags in this country, because we don’t have labor camps for kids here. Show me one nationally recognized Gulag in the united states, they don’t exist. When people say they have been held in a Gulag and tortured they lose credibility for what comes after and the rest of what they have to say is not as believable. I never use to believe anything I read here but after awhile and after speaking with some of you it became clear that this was a choosen speech between survivors and I need to read between the lines and interpret to understand what is being said. So I do understand that problems occurred but someone new to this would not.
She, like anyone not personally profiting from what amounts to the murder of children, understands the English language.
They are trying to earn money from the books they sell. An eye catching title is sometimes key. I wouldnt use a book title to interpret this.
I am sorry that I disagree with you so strongly, guest, but if you spoke to people who are educated or not and that are not associated with the industry they would not associate the language and definitions (you describe) with the teen help industry. Guantanamo bay, that prison in Iraq or old Russia maybe, but nothing in the US. Does everyone on fornits really believe the rest of the world speaks like this?
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Here's a personal request going out to Psy and Femanon: Please stop brownosing the child murderer or poseur child murderer. "I think you're a good person"? "I think you have good intentions?" Uh...Read its most current contribution.
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A Gulag is a Russian forced labor camp.
1. A network of forced labor camps in the former Soviet Union.
2. A forced labor camp or prison, especially for political dissidents.
3. A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp.
Guantanamo has become the gulag of our time..."
Hey, look, moron.That's from dictionary dot com. Gulag applies to any detention center which hold captives extrajudicially. According to Amnesty International the term applies to Guantanamo Bay PARTICUALARLY regarding the minors detained.
Anyhoo, now we are clear on what “gulag” means and understand you choose to go with a personal definition in this matter. I understand you make money from buying and selling kid bodies, so it makes sense that "you and your group" choose euphemisms over representational English.
It’s interesting you mention that Gulag means “forces Labor Camp”
Here’s testimony from a Family Foundation School (cultic-gulag) survivors:
Amy Johnson
My name is Amy Johnson and I attended The Family Foundation School in Hancock, NY from August 2000 through June 2002. Over my 22 months at FFS I witnessed, partook in and was encouraged to emotionally, verbally, mentally and in some cases physically abuse my peers. While a new chapel was being built our dorms were a filthy, disgusting, bug infested, rotting, molding mess that parents were prohibited from seeing. At the school the students do all the manual labor such as cutting the acres of grass, shoveling upstate NY snow each fall and winter, preparing and serving the meals, cleaning the school and house.
Leah Bonner
I wasn't aloud to eat normal food, and I had to work without school. I was feed flavorless Cream of Wheat, english muffins with dry canned tuna, and a small cup of water. I was starving, and then I was accused of being bulemic, even though I was never alone, not even for a second to go to the bathroom. I was repeatedly told I was going to end up "dead, institutionalized, or in jail" if I left the school. I took care of a pig that I watched get shipped off to slaughter. I washed it, feed it, and gave it clean hay and water three times a day. I was forced to trot, I couldn't walk. No shoes. I was made to wear the most humiliating outfit they could find, and working included shoveling and carrying rocks in the middle of July and was told that it was God's work... as my belly grumbled I had to prepare other people's food.
http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... eah_Bonner (http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Leah_Bonner)
http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... my_Johnson (http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Amy_Johnson)
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Within two weeks of being at the school I was not allowed to talk to boys, my parents, or any other new comer to the school. I was confused about they're policies about "negative" behavior, music I had grown up listening to, stories of the people I had grown to love back home, including some of my own family memebers, and any mention of drugs or partying in any kind of positive way. They preached to me AA and absolute love, but continued to keep me from speaking to my parents.
When I had the chance to have a brief conversation with them I was always punished after for something I had said, whether it was telling them about something that had happened to me, another student, or an employee. Any mention of the school was considered manipulation and any mention of any success or progress I had achieved was considered prideful. I painfully got up day after day in front of my makeshift "family" where I was baraded with forced and influenced hate from my peers and they're insults and harsh words were not even comparable to what I endured from the staff. I was called a slut, a whore, an ungrateful human being; i was told by my family "mother" repeatedly that she hated me, and she clearly favored the other children, letting them get away with more than me.
I struggled to be as honest as possible, but I was accused of lying on a daily basis. I was forced to say extremely embarassing things infront of 30-40 of my peers. If I developed a close friendship with one of the other female students I was accused of being a lesbian and was not aloud to talk to or look at her. I saw my parents rarely and always got in trouble after. My Aunt drove 5 hours to come see me and the turned her down and sent her home. I was not aloud any comfort, they focused on humiliation.
After I decided I was going to leave in three months on my eighteenth birthday (after a long year of being at the school) I was forced to stand outside in the hall, I wasn't aloud to eat normal food, and I had to work without school. I was feed flavorless Cream of Wheat, english muffins with dry canned tuna, and a small cup of water. I was starving, and then I was accused of being bulemic, even though I was never alone, not even for a second to go to the bathroom. I was repeatedly told I was going to end up "dead, institutionalized, or in jail" if I left the school. I took care of a pig that I watched get shipped off to slaughter. I washed it, feed it, and gave it clean hay and water three times a day. I was forced to trot, I couldn't walk. No shoes. I was made to wear the most humiliating outfit they could find, and working included shoveling and carrying rocks in the middle of July and was told that it was God's work. I was forced to watch or listen to the other students having fun, and as my belly grumbled I had to prepare other people's food.
I was one of the many children there who were singled out as being unbreakable, that I was still too prideful and they had to do everything they could to humiliate me and they did. Turns out I'm not a drug addict, sex addict, or a harm to myself or others. I am a successful adult who deals everyday with what I've been through. Within 3 years of leaving the nightmares slowly faded to a dull roar - I felt less fear in my dreams. However, large parts of my memory are missing, my brain is permanently damaged from the 15 and a half months I was there and will do anything to educate parents, to help them find a better way then incarcerating their children in an abusive program. I am strong, but a part of me will always be with those horrible memories of no love, no hope, and a attempted destruction of the person that I am. Only now, seven years later, do I feel safe talking about this. I hope it helps other people.
http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... eah_Bonner (http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Leah_Bonner)
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My name is Chris Lont, and I would like to fully back your cause here. I got an email forwarded to me from Grace Cole. I was a student at the FFS from August 1997 to June 1999. If it makes any difference or holds any extra weight in your case, I am currently a Lieutenant in the US Navy. I am very busy, so I don't think I'll have the time to write a verbose report of my experience, but I'll list what I saw, and what happened to me while I was there:
- Wrapped up in a blanket and duct taped for mouthing off to a fellow student in August 1997. At the time, The main building was a 3 story farmhouse, and I was thrown into a small room on the first floor where the library was. I was unsupervised for 3 hours, and then was checked on. After asking if I was ready to calm down, I refused to comply, and was left for a full 24 hours in the blanket. Obviously, without the proper facilities available to me, I was forced to twice urinate.
- I was not allowed to talk to my family for the first 56 days there, even though the norm at the time was a 30 day wait.
- A fellow student in 1998 was sent to the school because he was an extreme vegan, and partook in various protests. Obviously, he did not eat meat. And, instead of allowing him to eat a vegetarian meal, he was told to eat his meat food anyway. He refused, and, as was custom, was told to sit in the corner until he was ready to comply. The rules were that you MUST eat all of the missed meals. So, he went without a meal for 5 days, a total of 14 meals missed. The school never offered any other type of sustenance.
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During my stay at the FFS, I experienced and witnessed many horrors that should never be experienced by any child. First, I had an attorney who had fought on my behalf to keep me out of the school and lost prior to my arrival. I asked to call her several times during my stay there and was refused the right. We were told we didn’t have rights until we were 18 by the staff and senior members. I believed them. I was told I did not have a mental illness, which I in fact did and do and is documented to this day. I was told I was just a “brat”. I was shortly taken off all my psychiatric medication which included an antidepressant and antipsychotic to clear my thinking. They didn’t believe in mental illness there and there was no substantial treatment for mental illness unless you consider being verbally abused “therapy”. There was no positive criticism. Girls were called whores. I myself was not called one because I wasn’t considered pretty. Instead I was told I looked like a slob and criticized for bad outfit choices I made in front of the whole table. At the same time, I was denied new clothes. Most of my clothes had been taken from me when I arrived so I had little wardrobe choices. Character attacks and degradation at the table were common. We were told we “needed humility because we were arrogant” when in fact most of the students there suffered from low self esteem. One boy in family 2, who wasn’t there long, was videotaped by staff while he was restrained and had dog biscuits shoved in his mouth. I didn’t witness it but it was brought up at the table and the staff admitted doing it. I unfortunately don’t remember the staff’s name. I know they worked in family 2 and it wasn’t Bob and Susan. They also tried to impose the first step on us, which is to admit we’re powerless over our addictions, by placing us on work sanctions and giving us dry tuna to eat and other harsh punishments. Oh we realized how powerless we were but not over our “addictions”(some addictions were real, some were imagined by the staff). We realized we were completely powerless as far as rights.
The whole time I was there, I was shunned and treated like a leper. I was placed on house blackout as a punishment because they felt I didn’t really want the program and remained on it most of my stay. I couldn’t even talk to staff during part of my blackout. Being simply compliant wasn’t enough. Then you were “just skating by” or “biding your time”. I was resistant at first and negative but then when I realized that the school had complete control over me, I began to comply but that wasn’t good enough.
I enjoyed and excelled at school but for not “really working my program” I was taken out of school and placed on work sanctions frequently. During some of these sanctions, I endured harsh elements like the cold winter weather for most of my day as did the people who were in charge of watching me. I was always placed in the corner or isolation for long periods of time. Given that and the fact I was on house blackout and off my antidepressant, I was depressed and felt isolated most of my stay there. I will never forget the holidays, which is supposed to be a joyful time of year. I was compliant and trying to “work the program” but still on house blackout. Most of the staff took blackouts off for the holidays but Paul Geer, our family “father”, was particularly cruel and refused to let me and another girl speak to anyone on Christmas Day while everyone else had a good time. This girl and I were also forced to sit in the corner at a dance and not socialize with anyone. Like I said, we were doing what we were supposed to be doing.
I was also isolated from my family. I was placed on family blackout for refusing to do my work sanctions at times and refusing to eat dry tuna. I was taken off shortly when Paul thought I didn’t want to talk to my parents when the truth was I was just majorly depressed and my spirit was broken so I didn’t care anymore. Prior to the holidays, my mom and Grandpa drove several hours to see me in a play and visit me. I was told I could see them when I got done with the play and my mom was told the same. After the play, they were gone. My sponsor and family “mom”, Christine Spicer told me that my Grandpa was tired so my mom had to leave. Soon after that I was placed on family blackout. I later found out after leaving that my mom was told I had misbehaved when that was far from the truth. I remained on family blackout about 6 months.
As for nutritional deprivation, I would definitely say I was at times deprived nutrition. Dry tuna straight out of the can on an English muffin for lunch and dinner and a small bowl of maypo for breakfast hardly meet the daily nutritional requirements for a teen. This was the menu of choice for those who were deemed “defiant” or “not working their program”. I had to endure eating it sometimes. I got out of it sometimes though by refusing to do my work sanction unless I was given regular food and it worked a few times. I also at one time threatened Paul I would tell my lawyer who was due to visit me, that I was being malnourished. He then started adding mayonnaise and celery to my tuna. That wouldn’t last though. I saw one girl get served dry tuna for at least two months and started having problems with her bowels and was still given tuna and milk of magnesia. This same girl was also made to stand all day long in the corner and given only one pair of clothes to wear for months.
Whenever I was sick there, which was about 3 times during my stay there, I was accused of lying. I recall within my first few months there, I was in the dorm in Family 2, dusting(my chore). I started feeling extremely dizzy. I asked to lie down for a minute because I felt dizzy. The girls insisted I continue on with my chore so I did. I then knew I was going to faint so I kind of threw myself on the floor to avoid falling into something and hurting myself further. I blacked out for a minute and then came to. I awoke to being screamed at by my junior sponsor and told I was making the whole thing up. I was allowed to go to the nurse and my temperature was taken and it was high. Even though I was proven to be sick, I was told I had exaggerated the whole thing and after that is when the punishments started getting severe. Shortly after that, I was brought up for not doing a good enough job on dish crew. I was punished on Easter Day by being expected to clean up after my whole family of 30 people and do the dish crew of the whole school’s dishes by myself. While I did these chores, I was also required to trot. In the same family( family 2, which at the time was run by Bob and Susan Runge), I also remember a boy on crutches being forced to carry heavy tubs of dishes up the stairs without help. The last time I was sick there, I was put in the corner for claiming to be sick and when I asked to have my temperature taken, I was refused. Finally I begged to have it taken all day and the school nurse reluctantly took it and it was high. I was still punished in the corner.
Scare tactics were commonly used to make us stay there and/or comply. We were all told we would end up dead or in jail if we left. One girl was brought up at the table and taunted about a previous molestation that had occurred to her by Paul Geer. He made it feel like her fault she was molested and then told her if she dared try to run away or leave the school it would happen again. Kids were scared into eating foods they couldn’t tolerate by being threatened with food tubes. I myself had scare tactics used on me by my peers at the direction of Robin Ducey and Audra Runge. I was court ordered there. I was threatened if I didn’t comply by eating dry tuna and doing a work sanction, I would be sent to a juvenile detention facility. I started to think I would be happier there although I had never been to one. Girls were instructed to tell me horror stories of their times in juvenile facilities to scare me. Robin then threatened to have me shipped out in 24 hours and told me my parents were in full support of me going to a juvenile detention facility. I later found out this was not true at all.
I experienced minor physical abuse at the school. During my last month there, I was on yet another work sanction and I was to do dish crew. I refused to do it and was physically dragged up the stairs by staff and students by my arms. I had bruises all over my upper arms when I left the school.
All phone calls and letters to parents were monitored and read. We weren’t allowed to tell our parents what went in the school because it would be considered a manipulation and we would be heavily punished. My parents were in the dark most of the time about what happened to me at the school. I was on family blackout most of my stay and when I DID talk to my parents, I was only allowed to say positive things about the school.
I finally got out of the school by giving up on everything and being noncompliant. I then begged to call my mom and they finally let me. I begged her to take me out and told her that they were threatening me with juvenile hall. My mom came that day and got me. Other students weren’t so lucky though. I don’t care if the staff there or previous students think I was a “brat” who “didn’t work her program”. I did what I had to do to get out of an abusive situation. I tried to comply several times and that wasn’t enough so I gave up on everything and worked on fighting to get out. I suffered from a broken heart, a broken spirit and a low self esteem which was supported by staff mainly. I felt hopeless and suicidal at times. The only little gleam of hope I held on to was my 18th birthday. I haven’t led the most successful life since leaving the school and my mental condition has worsened. I won’t blame all my problems on the school but I will say they did absolutely nothing to help me. I experienced the same nightmares others have of being forced to go back there and trying to tell people that I’m over 18 and they can’t make me but somehow they can. The nightmares have only recently ended. This is my first time speaking out about the abuses that occurred because I didn’t realize it was actual abuse until hearing John Martin Crawford’s testimony and reading testimonies of my fellow classmates. Now I won’t shut up about it. Something must be done about the FFS and other institutions like it. I have now realized that I didn’t fail at the FFS. The FFS failed me and my parents. The school preys on desperate parents. Anyways this is my testimony. If I remember more details, I will edit it.
Retrieved from "http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sarah_Forman"
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http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... iew&id=627 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=627)
Additional Written Testimony from Family Foundation School Survivors
Testimony collected 2008:
Chavaya Beebee Galvao
Leah Bonner
Fay Leff
Jennifer Jacobs
Brendon McMahon
Leah Pallor
Amy Johnson
Christopher Noroski
Emil Fischer
Daniel Merrill
Melanie Bilcik
Matthew Tierney
Andrea DiGenno
Grace Cole
Katelyn Norris
Sgt. Chris Lont
Darrilyn Boyce
Tom Malkowski
Sarah Forman
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My name is Chris Noroski and I attended The Family Foundation School from 2001 to 2004.I was woken up in the middle of the night by two men, who proceeded to handcuff me, shackle me, and put me in the back of a Lincoln town car. I had no idea who they were, where I was going, or why. Honestly, I thought I had been kidnapped at first. I was a scared, scrawny, 15 year old kid.
During my time at The Family School, I witnessed many things that I would consider to be child abuse. About two weeks after I arrived there, I refused to go to school until I was able to talk to my mom. They told me that wasn’t going to happen and made me stand in a corner of a room all day and did not feed me anything until I complied. When I still refused, two staff members then picked me up by neck and held me against the wall in the corner of the room while yelling obscenities at me. I was slammed over a table, which proceeded to fall on top of me and I received a blackeye. It should be important to note that I made no physical advances or threats on either staff member; I just nonviolently stated that I was not going to comply with their demands.
I attempted to behave myself for the next two weeks or so until they would allow me to speak with my mother. I promised I would not say anything bad to my mom on the phone, but as soon as I got on the phone I told my mom what had happened to me. A staff member took away the phone and reassured my mom that I was lying, while looking at me and my black eye just a foot away. I was then put on “family” blackout, on which I was not allowed to talk to my mom for months.
Being stubborn, I refused to admit that I needed to work their program. During my first few months there, several staff members tried to get me to admit to problems that I did not have, such as drug and alcohol abuse, two things that I had not tried at all.
Also, the school has a very strict anti-masturbation policy. On several occasions, I was forced to get up in front of “the family” (a group “therapy” session where a student stands up in front of 30 peers and about 5-10 staff members and people take turns telling you what is wrong with you). Students were encouraged to call me a pervert, and girls told me that I was a disgusting person because I masturbated. All of this was discussed over meals. That is an embarrassment and public humiliation that no student deserves.
A lot of the policies at FFS exist to publicly demean the student. They seek to destroy a student’s will to fight by making you feel worthless. It is no surprise that one student while I was at FFS committed suicide. While I did not know the student (Tom M), he committed suicide after a short time at the school. I can not say that I blame FFS for that because I did not know Tom well, but I do remember that the first month was the hardest time at the school, and that I also entertained suicidal thoughts when I was first there.
During my final year at The Family School, I was a member of the school Basketball Team, and we all got in trouble for making inappropriate comments about girls on the cheerleading team. The comments were honestly not that out of the ordinary for high school adolescent guys (still perhaps not the most wholesome comments). We were forced to stand up in front of the house (the entire student body and 30-40 or more staff members who each yelled at us for at least 2 hours). Students, particularly the girls were encouraged to mock us. One girl was even applauded for saying that “If we talked about her like that, she would cut our dicks off.” This type of derisive behavior was encouraged.
Male students were discouraged from talking to the female students. Some boys got in trouble for as much as “making eye contact” with female students. Smiling towards the opposite sex was strictly forbidden, and I did not have any female friends while at this school. Granted, some boarding schools are all-male or all-female, but here it was co-ed yet natural hormones and feelings were meant to feel unnatural by the FFS staff. I would say that this was probably the most lasting negative effect of my stay at FFS. Prior to my arrival at FFS, I had had only one girlfriend in my life. Since leaving the school, 4 years ago, I would say that it has just been in the last year that I have been able to reopen up around the opposite sex, and realizing that being attracted to girls is not “a bad thing”. I don’t have to fear standing in a corner if I smile at a cute girl anymore, but that has taken time. Three years of my formative teenage life in terms of dating and maturing as a person were taken away from me by FFS.
Some of my peers at FFS certainly were very dangerously “at-risk” teens. There were students who were facing 20 years or more in prison if they did not complete The Family School program, others were sex addicts who had abused siblings, others were suicidal/extremely depressed. The main issue that I have with programs, The Family School in particular is their false marketing strategies. They claim to be a “college-preparatory boarding school.” I don’t think that I could have been worse prepared for college than I was by FFS. I was confused and by the time I graduated I halfway thought I was a drug addict/alcoholic even though I had never done either in my life.
The lies that I told to get by and finally escape that place still haunt me today. Students were encouraged to tell other students their faults down to the nitpickiest things.
I fought the FFS system for 2 years. The result was I placed on work sanctions on 10 different occasions. These sanctions lasted between a week and 2 months in my case and consisted of menial labor all day, with no formal education. I was taken out of school to do tasks such as carrying buckets of rocks from point A to point B all day and then the next day carry the same rocks from point B to point A. I also built drainage ditches, resodded parts of the campus, and during the summer was given a manual lawnmower and sent outside into 100 degree heat all day, sometimes without sunscreen or enough proper breaks for water. These “sanctions” were 7 days a week from the moment we woke up 6:15 am (work usually began around 8:30 am) and lasted until 7:30 pm. I would approximate that I missed 6-9 months of formal education doing this type of labor.
After two years, of refusing to comply with The Family School way of life, I finally assuaged my behavior to their policies so that they would let me graduate. I told on my fellow students, and was a nitpicking, pain in the ass hypocrite. Staff praised me for “holding my peers accountable” If we didn’t tell other students their faults, it was assumed that we were “being dishonest, not working our programs, wanting to relapse, etc.”
In many ways, FFS operates like a cult. They try to get you to believe that if you do not do what they say you will die. You become dependent on what they say, because they tell you that you will never leave the school if you don’t do what they say.
FFS boasts a 100% college placement rating. I can not count the number of times where students were told “if you do not go to college, you will relapse and die.” They portray an image that is plainly not true.
I saw that FFS responded to Jon Martin’s testimony at the recent Congressional hearing in April 2008 and it seemed to me that they were taking credit for his success as a person.
I remember two weeks after I graduated they put a picture of me up on their website with quotes from my graduation speech, which was heavily edited by the administration. They told me what to say and how to say it so that the visiting parents could see the joys and successes of their program. I remember crying during my graduation speech, not because I believed a word of the “touching” speech I was giving, but rather because this horrendous experience was finally over. I was finally free.
Of my five peers who graduated the program when I did, not a single one remained “sober” after leaving there. The truth is that most former Family School students succeed in spite of FFS rather than because of it.
Once I left The Family School, I tried to tell my mom what happened at FFS.
She would not believe me.
She would call me a liar and say that I was just bitter at her for sending me there. I had realized that my mom had been tricked by FFS into believing that they were trying to help me. I no longer blamed her, but just wanted her to believe me when I told her of the abuses that went on there. Only recently, following the latest Congressional hearing has my mom broken down and said that she was sorry that she did not realize what was happening there.
HR 5876 MUST BE PASSED. Every child has the intrinsic right to be able to be protected and not abused. Programs such as The Family School do not ensure these rights. Students must be allowed to talk to Child Services.
There was no access to Child Services while at The Family School.
I have one year left at The University of St. Thomas in St. Paul, Minnesota where I am pursuing a degree in Science and Mathematics for Elementary Education. I am backing up the words I write here and believe I have found a career and a purpose that I can find meaning and inspiration in. I want to protect our nation’s children and to be an integral part in being a positive influence rather than a demeaning influence even if it is one classroom at a time.
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Here's a personal request going out to Psy and Femanon: Please stop brownosing the child murderer or poseur child murderer. "I think you're a good person"? "I think you have good intentions?"
:tup:
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There are groups for “open discussion” on the industry.
What sites, pray tell, might these "open" places be where discussion of good and bad is permissible? Perhaps they would allow me to voice my opinions, if it's so open. As you have seen, I can be quite diplomatic. Perhaps Pam, Buzzkill, or other parents or ex-staff members could be permitted to speak as well.
Pam the parent here now....
I would love to be a part of any "open discussion" forum! I was welcomed originally on the WWASP parents' BBS, but soon after, my posts were edited by staff....on more than 15 separate occasions. So sending anyone to a school site is just asking for us to be banned for sure! If there are, in fact, open discussion forums, please send a link so we can have an open & honest discussion with ANYONE looking for snapshot of both sides of the coin.
Not ALL parents are stupid and we should have the opportunity to see both the bad and the good; only THEN can we be expected to make a decision with informed consent!
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I'm tired of being tormented to hell, that's what I'm tired of.
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A Gulag is a Russian forced labor camp.
1. A network of forced labor camps in the former Soviet Union.
2. A forced labor camp or prison, especially for political dissidents.
3. A place or situation of great suffering and hardship, likened to the atmosphere in a prison system or a forced labor camp.
Guantanamo has become the gulag of our time..."
Hey, look, moron.That's from dictionary dot com. Gulag applies to any detention center which hold captives extrajudicially. According to Amnesty International the term applies to Guantanamo Bay PARTICUALARLY regarding the minors detained.
Anyhoo, now we are clear on what “gulag” means and understand you choose to go with a personal definition in this matter. I understand you make money from buying and selling kid bodies, so it makes sense that "you and your group" choose euphemisms over representational English.
It’s interesting you mention that Gulag means “forces Labor Camp”
Here’s testimony from a Family Foundation School (cultic-gulag) survivors:
Amy Johnson
My name is Amy Johnson and I attended The Family Foundation School in Hancock, NY from August 2000 through June 2002. Over my 22 months at FFS I witnessed, partook in and was encouraged to emotionally, verbally, mentally and in some cases physically abuse my peers. While a new chapel was being built our dorms were a filthy, disgusting, bug infested, rotting, molding mess that parents were prohibited from seeing. At the school the students do all the manual labor such as cutting the acres of grass, shoveling upstate NY snow each fall and winter, preparing and serving the meals, cleaning the school and house.
Leah Bonner
I wasn't aloud to eat normal food, and I had to work without school. I was feed flavorless Cream of Wheat, english muffins with dry canned tuna, and a small cup of water. I was starving, and then I was accused of being bulemic, even though I was never alone, not even for a second to go to the bathroom. I was repeatedly told I was going to end up "dead, institutionalized, or in jail" if I left the school. I took care of a pig that I watched get shipped off to slaughter. I washed it, feed it, and gave it clean hay and water three times a day. I was forced to trot, I couldn't walk. No shoes. I was made to wear the most humiliating outfit they could find, and working included shoveling and carrying rocks in the middle of July and was told that it was God's work... as my belly grumbled I had to prepare other people's food.
http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... eah_Bonner (http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Leah_Bonner)
http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... my_Johnson (http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Amy_Johnson)
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Guest, there is no need to be rude to me. Ask around to people who are not in the industry and non survivors what a Gulag is and they will not tell you about boarding schools. Preparing meals, mowing the lawn and shovelling snow does not define a gulag, I am sorry to tell you, most American homes including mine require the children to work around the home. Our farming community would be insulted to hear you describe their kids lives of feeding and tending farm animals as a gulag life.
Someone spoon fed you this, misled you and you blindly bought into the hype so you can feel part of the group here. Before you jump in and call me wrong again do some reading on Gulags in the Soviet Union and then make the distinction yourself. Note the walls and barbed wire, continuous forced labor, extremely high death rate. Then come back and look at the boarding schools here in the US.
If you really still think I am wrong then ask yourself why none of the testimony before congressional committee included the words Gulag, prison camp, kidnapping etc. You are using a non traditional lingo which is acceptable here on fornits and between survivors. It is not used in main stream society, I assure you.
Again I am not criticizing you and I am use to the lingo myself. But people outside your close circle will not understand you or believe you if you use these terms.
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The thing is, "Kathy", these activities are not universally applied. They are specifically applied to "dissident" kids with differing pov's who they want to BREAK. There are also kids they want to SHUT UP, cause a staff member beat them too hard or abused them sexually and they want the kid to be not believed. So the general mood du jour while this shit is going on is one of group condemnation and shame and guilt and emotional and physical torment to further the program's ends. This is NOT emotional growth.
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Another way to view this is if you look at the way I have been described here since I started posting. I have been described as a murderer, child murderer, someone who sells kids etc. I get the feeling that a few guests and a few with user names don’t like me very well and that is why they are trying to discredit me with harmful names and stories. So if these same people didn’t like their programs or schools very much I would expect them to retaliate the same way by calling them names and telling stories that are hurtful to the program.
The problem I have is how do we separate out the fact from the fiction out of the survivor stories. If there is a passion to discredit the schools (like you have with me) what is to stop someone from saying they had to cook for the whole school when they really only had to help out in the kitchen. Or say they were placed in isolation when in fact they were restricted to their room, or said they were denied food when in fact they were not allowed desert because they broke the rules.
Hatred can tend to make people say things that are not true in an attempt to discredit them, make them look bad or hurt them as we have seen on this thread.
Think about it.
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I would have a neurophysiologist check the conductivity 'cross those synapses, if I were you, "Kathy". Seems a lot of information is not being processed appropriately, if at all.
I understand it is not currently in your financial or emotional interests to consider the degree of denial you're in, but the truth will out in the end.
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We have allowed human rights to be hijacked by a suspect body of so-called professionals and experts.
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KathyS is theWHO. To those too stupid to figure it out, well... you deserve to be trolled.
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KathyS is theWHO. To those too stupid to figure it out, well... you deserve to be trolled.
Oh I agree with you on this one, especially the last post. But I still think he got his sister involved to provide a believable other voice, especially in the beginning. It's not exactly without precedent here on fornits, to have multiple people posting under one "user name".
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Pam the parent here now....
I would love to be a part of any "open discussion" forum! I was welcomed originally on the WWASP parents' BBS, but soon after, my posts were edited by staff....on more than 15 separate occasions. So sending anyone to a school site is just asking for us to be banned for sure! If there are, in fact, open discussion forums, please send a link so we can have an open & honest discussion with ANYONE looking for snapshot of both sides of the coin.
Not ALL parents are stupid and we should have the opportunity to see both the bad and the good; only THEN can we be expected to make a decision with informed consent!
Hi Pam, It is difficult at best to see all sides of the industry in one place. Parents are typically in a crisis mode by the time they get to me so I try to keep it simple. I initially recommend some reading which I send them and a few sites which they can read. Specific threads on fornits. A few articles from any programs which may be a good fit. Articles from “struggling teens” and a forum which is safe for them to air their concerns and talk to others in similar circumstances. There is a yahoo discussion forum also. These would not be a good fit for you because they are reserved for parents who are presently having children in programs or boarding schools or are in crisis.
I am sorry to hear you were banned from the WWASP parents group. I generally do not suggest parents get involved in a group which is tied to the industry that closely.
On another note: Seems I have been labeled a murderer, accused of being Martha and now have been downgraded to thewho status. Thank you very much.
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We share as much information as we have on each school. If FFS is a good match for a particular student , we recommend the placement and then we ask the parents if they are aware of the GAO hearings and the problems they have had and we go from there and try to answer all the questions as they are placed to us. We have full disclosure so that parents can make the best decision possible and there are no problems down the road.
On the other hand when “you” speak to parents you withhold information which could save the life of a child because of your personal bias and unfounded judgements.
Save a child's life? Are you implying such a hypothetical kid was an immediate danger to himself or others. If that was the case, most schools would exclude enrollment on that basis (most schools generally have sections in their contracts to this effect... if you can find one that that doesn't, i'd be interested in hearing of it). So this means that most kids in program are, by the program's own standards, not an immediate danger to themselves or others. In this case, the APA would agree with me that such a placement would be inappropriate.
Furthermore. I truly believe that none of these places actually help kids. Even the "good" ones. There is no evidence to show that residential treatment works, and although we can share anecdotal evidence all day going one way or the other, it's not conclusive at all. That being said, the fact that there are few, if any, pro-program graduates on this site (which allows all people) says a lot to me... which is not even to mention the surveys of Allison Pinto.
Why wouldn’t you recommend that parents visit strugglingteens.com so that they can see both sides of the issue? You told me that they already have this information, but how do you know?
Well. I've never met a parent whose first stop has been Fornits or any other forum allowing criticism of the industry. It's a matter of search keywords. Google "troubled teen" and see how many critical site you find. A parent doesn't end up on Fornits unless they have already contacted an ed-con, is considering a particular school, and has googled that particular school.
Doesnt it ever bother you that a parent may come onto fornits and decide not to get help for their child and that child and family would suffer because of it?
That question is leading. See my point above on the effectiveness of residential treatment.
Are you aware that FFS is not on isac watch list? Just something to think about.
Yes, i'm aware of that. All that proves shows to me is that parents cant just look at watchlists or one organization to consider a program "safe". With all the bad programs out there, while there might be a hypothetical "safe" program, it's impossible to tell the difference. It's like trying to find the one fresh apple in a cartload of rotten ones. The cultic influence of Synanon, Est, and LifeSpring (among others) is that taint which has rotten the whole bunch. Sadly it spreads. Cultic groups are like a cancer for which there is no chemo. This industry can't be "cured. It's way past that point. The way I see it, the only solution is to put the patient down and end the entire industry. The economy will take care of most of the programs. Negative PR from this site and other will take care of the rest.
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Katelyn Norris
1. I was at FFS June 98-Feb 99
2. I experienced interventations only as a witness - I was once responsible for helping wrap another girl in a blanket and taping her wrapped shut. There was slight slapping involved but no brutal beating, although the experience and method is brutal enough.
We were also forced to hold and pin a girl down shoving fish sticks down her throat (which she was allergic too) until she threw up….
3. Nutrition was not ever withheld, however, things forced. Even things you have allergies to, you are required to eat.
4. Was denied sleep several times - staying up through the night scrubbing the gym floor with our own tooth brushes, mandatory to be in charge of suicidal watch for other kids etc….(why were staff members, credentialed, not responsible to watch a suicidal kid?)
5. Proper bedding - sure. You brought your own stuff…..Access to bathroom - only with permission and with complete lack of privacy. There were numerous times we/myslef were denied to go to the bathroom b/c of timing, etc….If you had to go too often, you were denied to continue going.
6. I was never in isolation however, I was one of the kids placed in charge of monitoring the kids who were in isolation. I would sit in a desk outside of isolation and watch someone who was wrapped up in a blanket lying on the cold ground on the other side of the door. Not too mention, I helped wrap her up.
This particular time, she was wrapped so tight, the blood vessels in her eyeballs popped/ ruptured.
We were required to bring them cold plain tuna.
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Tom Malkowski http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... _Malkowski (http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Tom_Malkowski)
This testimony does not belong to the author, but rather to the individual whos name is on it. I did not personally know Tom Malkowski but he is an example of the Family School's injustice. A student who had only been at the school for two weeks was allowed to commit suicide, there were religious ceremonies and grief counselors brought in and then the whole issue was hushed up. There is no direct tribute to this person to be found online, only a vague web page buried deep in the woodbury reports "troubled teens" site, let this be the ultimate example of the cruelty of the FFS:
"Recent Sad Events at the Family School Press Release
Contact: Sidney Parham 845-887-5213 Hancock, NY
(March 4, 2004) At approximately 8:20 a.m. on March 4, 2004, a male student jumped from a second story balcony at the Family Foundation School outside of Hancock, New York. Within minutes trained school staff began CPR. He was transported by ambulance to Delaware Valley Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival.
The 17-year-old from Virginia had been at this emotional growth school for just two weeks. After a difficult first four days, the student seemed to be adjusting to his life at the school. On Wednesday during group counseling, he confessed to having had suicidal thoughts and was subsequently seen by a staff Clinical Social Worker. During this interview, the student indicated he had no plan to commit suicide or harm himself in any way, said he felt better after talking with the social worker. However, senior administration at the school maintained it was standard practice for such situations to continue monitoring the student for any changes that might indicate an imminent crisis. The initial investigation revealed no precipitating incident leading up to this tragedy and no suicide note was found.
New York State Police and the Delaware County Sheriff’s Investigative units were both on the scene, but an official determination has not been made yet.
Religious and spiritual advisors who regularly work with the students and the Delaware County Critical Stress Management Team, are on campus to assist both staff and students in coping with the shock and grief of this death.
At this unfortunate time in the Family Foundation’s 17-year history of guiding at risk teenagers into responsible adulthood, our primary focus is now on helping the family and friends of this child as well as the other students at the school."
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Darrillyn Boyce
My name is Darrillyn Boyce and I attended the Family Foundation School from March 5th, 2002 until December 11, 2004. I went willingly unlike some of the students because I didn’t want to be taken into custody by police men. As so as I got the there, they stripped me down and made me take a shower and put lice shampoo in my hair. After that they went through all of my stuff threw away personal items such as diaries, CD’s, clothes, etc. Then I got the chance to say good-bye to my family. However I had no idea that I would have no contact with my family for the first thirty days.
After the first thirty days I got a 10 minute phone call with my guardian. After that only on ten minute phone call a week ensued, including if I wanted to talk to my sister, then my phones alternated between my sister and my guardian. However I wasn’t allowed to talk to my sister until about 6 months before I graduated the program.
[…]At FFS[…] Religion was a pressed issue. If everyone else was praying then you should two regardless of your religion. We had chapel everyday, except maybe Saturday. It was unfair to whatever religion people were practicing to (make them) participate in everything.
We had these events that took place at meal time, called “Table Topics” and I just didn’t understand why someone should have to get up in front of a table full of peers and adults and be bombarded with all these things there doing wrong. Most times I never heard anyone really giving advice, just sanctions. And I wasn’t the friendliest person there but I did what I need to. At one point they had me standing in a corner with no shoes on. I had to get up at the table everyday at every meal and tell one thing about myself, and if it wasn’t satisfactory then I either couldn’t sit or I would get alternative food.
Alternative food varied at each meal. Breakfast was barely warm cream of wheat, Lunch was a dry untoasted English muffin with tuna straight out the can until they changed it to a lukewarm soy burger, and Dinner was a dry untoasted English muffin again but with creamy peanut butter. Till this day I cant eat, any of those items and seeing them makes me nauseous. Also there was a rule that you had to eat everything on your plate. If you didn’t they would put it in the fridge and you couldn’t eat anything else until you ate that
At one point they get tired of you being stubborn or unresponsive, and take you out of school and put you on work sanction. Now work sanction, doesn’t that sound like child labor? They would take you out of class until they saw fit to put u back in class. This action set my back 6 months, so I ended up graduation late. And at that same time I was on alternative food while working. We were outside working, digging holes, cutting lawns, cooking, cleaning, and washing dishes, shoveling snow, any labor you can possibly think of. At the same time they put me on alternative food so I was losing weight like crazy. I went from a healthy 170lbs to 137lbs. It was disgusting, you could see the bones in my wrist and my face was all drawn in. Even when my sister can to see me at a family group she said I looked unhealthy because I was skinny.
`Family groups usually happen about a few months into the program, or whatever they call it. We had to prepare a list of our “dishonesties” and read them off to our parents or guardians. It was so humiliating and uncomfortable.
But there were so many things that are actually ok and are encouraged by either family or by psychology. Masturbation was a big, and I mean BIG no-no. They told you that it was inappropriate and that it was going to bring you down spiritually. So at one point you begin to believe them and you start feeling like crap, and you look like it too. You couldn’t really talk to the opposite sex let alone look at them. They had this sanction call no eye contact with the opposite sex and blackout. Blackout is when you can’t talk to certain people, such as house, which was anyone outside your unit of 40 people, and there were 8 different units called “families,” six months, which was the amount of time you’ve been there, and the opposite sex
And its so sad, especially if you’re on no eye contact because they would encourage the opposite sex to call you out and embarrass you in front of everyone. At one point I was brought up in front of the house, which is all 8 “families” and then about 200 staff and told that no one should talk to me because I treat everyone like crap and they should ignore me and that I was on this sanction called invisible. This meant that no one could see me and could ignore me if they wanted to. There were times where I would sit in the corner, with no shoes on, in poverty clothes (meaning u weren’t allowed to wear jeans and nice clothes, only nasty sweats, old shirts, ponytails and no name brand soaps and facial cleansers) and wait for almost an hour at times, so some one could acknowledge me. At one point I had to answer a question from the twelve step program that the school was based on, and if it was satisfactory then I didn’t get to eat regular food.
And the basis on the program was based on AA. I wasn’t an alcoholic nor had I drank previous to going to the school. So how was I supposed to relate. At the same time the people there thought I was a liar when it came to certain issues. I understand that’s how we are seen because no body wants to be at this school in the first place. But I was told that I was a whore and I had slept around and there was no way that I was a virgin when I got there, I was appalled at what they said to me.
And to come there and be stripped of what you know and locked up in this bubble until its time for us to graduate, it’s hard. When I left the family school I was absolutely terrified. I was so used to being in this ball and being protected that I was afraid to go outside when I moved to Maryland with my sister. We really didn’t have a initiation into the “real world”. I went out to the mall at one point and a guy hit on me, and I started hyper ventilating and had to go sit and calm down. Till this day I cant take long showers, 4 minutes is what was drilled into my head for almost 3 years. While being there i saw a student commit suicide, because he just couldnt handle it anymore. Can you imagine how he felt before that event took place or how we as a student body felt seeing his body fall to the ground below?
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I attended the Family School I was never hit or slapped, but I was yanked around, dragged and shoved. I did not suffer extreme pain from that, just total humiliation.
Some things happed to me that caused lasting and extreme pain. I had painful menstrual cramps, which I HAD NEVER had before the Family School. I was made to work very hard while I had these even though I was crying. I was not allowed any medical care for these at The Family School. I was even told at one point that I did not deserve to go to the doctor. Since leaving the school these pains have gotten worse and they have found all kinds of things wrong with my ovaries and uterus. I may never be able to have kids and recent ultra sound has found sometime abnormal on the uterus. I am going in later this month for another one. They are hoping that it is not cancer.
I hardly ate any meat before the Family School and stuck to a very healthy/sometimes organic diet. At the Family School the food made me so sick to my stomach. It felt like rocks sitting inside me and I would go days with out having a bowl movement. I would sit on the toilet crying and I could not sleep at night because of the pain. I really needed some fiber in my diet. I was thin and athletic before the Family School, and I gained about 50 pounds there which was emotionally painful. It took forever to lose it. We also had to ask permission to use the bathroom. Sometimes they said "no" and I would have to wait forever to take a piss. It would put my abdomen in so much pain that I could not concentrate on my school work or in class.
I didn't have food taken away, but I had restrictions on the food towards the end of my stay. I spent about 2 months in the corner, I could not get extras and stayed hungry. I did lose a few pounds in the corner, which I was happy about. They had me in the corner because I had announced that I was going to leave on the 18th birthday, so I spent the rest of my time in the corner.
I was denied feminine hygiene and ended up having gross horrible accidents in the Family room, which I was harassed and ridiculed for. My cramps were still painful and getting worse and my periods were out of control with heavy bleeding. I slept in a bloody bed for my last few months there. They stood me up in front of the Family once and Mary Musgrove made me tell the boys about my "problems". I refused and went back to the corner.
I got very sick in the dorm and threw up every where and lost control of my bowels. My bed was a mess. My comforter was covered in nastiness, and I begged for weeks to allow me to wash my comforter. They said it would not fit in the washing machine. They also refused to have someone bring it to town to wash at a laundry mat. I only had a few months left, thank God, but I had to spend each night sleeping in a disgusting bed.
I was only allowed 2 days of rest after this illness and then had to go back to leading wait staff even though I still felt like shit. I was never kept in isolation, but was denied sleep in the dorm.
The alarm would go off when someone ran away. The alarm would go on and on and sometimes we had to go look for the run away. I lost much sleep because of this and it made school work very difficult.
It was also difficult to sleep in the dorm because the heat would not always work. Winters got very cold in the dorm, and we went several weeks without having hot water for our showers.
I also spent several weeks on a work sanction. I had to stand all day without leaning or taking a break. I could only sit down in the dorm and on the toilet. I couldn't even sit down to eat. All day I was made to carry big buckets filled with rocks. I carried them up and down the road. Sometimes a staff member would come by and put more rocks in the bucket to add more weight. My back and knees constantly ached. I have had many problems with my back and joints since I left the Family School. I have been to doctors for those problems. They said my back is filled with knots. I had some work done on it and it feels much better, but it was so painful at first. I would wake up each morning for years after leaving the Family School feeling like my back and joints had been beaten all night. I had always dreamed of being a dancer, but my back and weight have really held me back.
Thank fully I have been able to see a doctor who got me back in shape and I finally lost all my weight and am on a dance team now. My period and constipation problems stayed with me and I have to take medicine for both, as well as attend physical therapy for a few months. All of these doctor's bills do add up, as well as being time consuming. I believe that I owe my health problems to the Family School.
Also, I had gone to see an orthodonist while at The Family School. They said my wisdom teeth were growing side ways and needed to be taken out. They also a couple of my front teeth needed to be taken out because they wern't growing right. The Family School told my dad not to worry about it. Well, my teeth got really bad, and I had to wait until college to get this taken care of. I had a total of 6 teeth taken out, and now I have 3 fake teeth. I had to wear braces for 3 years. I could have had this all taken care of in high school, but no. The procedure took a lot of time, and I had to miss college and work. It was painful and another hold up in my adult life. I hated being 22 and wearing braces. I finally got them taken off 2 years ago. The Family did not want my teeth taken care of because it would take my mind of my program.
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My name is Andrea DiGenno. I attended the Family Foundation School from June 1998 to June 2000, during which time i witnessed my peers being abused mentally and physically and i endured the same. When i got to the family school i was heavily involved in drugs was emaciated and unable to think clearly and rationally. I was taken from my house by two bounty hunters who hand cuffed and shackled me in my pajamas and took me into their car only to drive two and a half hours away to the foothills of the Catskills to the elusive Family School.
When I arrived I was gawked at, laughed at and questioned like a war criminal. My clothes were all taken away, while I was asked if I was a whore. My lack of self esteem at the time had made me feel like they were right. My parents were told not to speak to me, signed the papers which handed over my life to these supposedly trusted people and left. I did not speak to them for at least a month. During my first few weeks there i was told i was nothing special, was nothing more than a blow up doll used and thrown away like a tissue. I was a whore and my birthmother was the same. If I wasn't careful I would finish her cycle. These verbal put downs were displayed in front of groups of girls as well as boys, men and women who were requested and encouraged to add their sentiments on the situation. These sentiments were only allowed if they were in the same vein as the leaders of these groups.
I was forced to eat food I was allergic to and had never eaten before. If food was not finished at one meal it would be finished at the next as well as the meal served at that time all while being forced to face the wall in the corner. I gained 60 pounds in five months which is by no means healthy. As my size grew my insecurity followed suit. My clothes did not fit anymore and but since they had denounced me as vain and way too into my looks, I was not allowed ANY new clothes, restricting me from being comfortable for months. Being called fat and being ashamed of my looks, I was not allowed to wear minimal makeup like the rest of the girls and all my hair was cut off. They had allowed me to keep my hair for a part in a play and cut it the day after the play was over.
At three months there I was forced to scrub human feces off planks of wood used to keep a dock in a cow pond as my sanction for standing up for myself. These are only a few of the things that happened to me.
I witnessed people being restrained by staff and students with extreme force. I witnessed staff yelling in students faces about their issues as if they were no less then petty drama made up by the students. These issues included rape, molestation, abuse, death and many other serious problems that can NOT be dealt with through intimidation.
We were told we were evil, children of the devil and our only salvation was following their rules and worshipping their gods. Religion was forced upon EVERY child and was expected to be followed.
Leaders of staff were molesting children and blaming other students for these situations. Some students were taken on outings and touched by a specific highly trusted staff member. Upon return said students blew the whistle to their parents resulting in their immediate removal from the school as not to infect the rest of the population with their propaganda. I as many other female students experienced blame for the students removal. If we werent such whores these boys would of been able to continue with their program instead of leaving.
As the years went on we realized that if we didnt become fake and participate in the abuse we would never leave. I was left back upon arrival and told i couldnt leave until i turned 18.
At 18 I tried to leave and I was put in isolation my sneakers taken and NEVER given back. They were lost I was told. So I spent the last year of my stay being snubbed and trying my hardest to achieve their standards of excellence. I participated in yelling at and restraining other students, I made speeches and participated in the schools propaganda at family days telling other parents about the success this school had afforded me. All of which were lies. I was dying inside an empty shell I was made to believe was filled by love honesty respect and unselfishness our schools motto. Things none of us had experienced while there.
The only people who loved us, namely our parents we were on a once a week speaking basis with. A privilege that depended on whether or not we did our home work everyday for 8 classes or more. We were given approximately 2-3 hours a day to finish our assignments many of which were forced advanced placement which we got no special help for. Our passing grade was raised to 85 and if our group didn’t all pass at this grade we were not allowed ANY extra food. We were also forced to run a mile every night right after dinner before we could start our homework. This cut our time down by sometimes 40 minutes as we had to wait until every last person was done, in all weather conditions. Normal treatment was celebrated.
No one was honest with us or our parents. While we lived a daily lie our parents were constantly manipulated by the school, being told we needed more help more structure more discipline and more work before we were even close to ready to come home. Leaving became an impossible task looked at as almost the Holy Grail.
There was no respect for our needs. I as well as many others were held from using bathrooms only to result in the soiling of themselves and the embarrassing nature of the circumstances.
As for being unselfish, we were forced to confine our selves to small spaces, shower for only 4 minutes in sulfur water and live in unsafe conditions. This was called being selfless by the staff and senior members around us. During winters the dorms had no heat and I myself as well as many others became very sick. With a 103 fever and bronchitis I was forced to participate in ALL daily activities including school, work and chores. Only to have my sickness relapse 3 times during the same winter. I developed asthma and was not produced an inhaler. During my stay I developed a rash and was seen by the school doctor and was told that I had developed an std. With no blood taken and no second opinion I was lead to believe this lie for over two years only to find out it was an infection from a dirty razor.
But all of the physical suffering pales in comparison to the mental anguish I have survived over the past 8 years since i have graduated. Failed relationships, jobs and leaving college all due to my lack of trust. I have been successful at helping myself through medication and therapy but do NOT under any circumstances believe that my lack there of was caused by not working their "program".
Out of my class of 40 no one is sober, and many are dead.
I am now 6 months pregnant, sober and starting my life over, the life I believe I deserved and could of had long ago. I say none of this for pity or selfish gain. I say this to STOP INSTITUTIONALIZED CHILD ABUSE.
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Melanie Bilcik
Reading others Testimonys about their experience at the Family Foundation brings back a lot of bad memories that I have tried to forget.
I guess I thought I was just really bad or extra sensitive and didn't think anyone was affected as I was. It brings me so much peace to know that others had endured what I had (if that makes sense).
I was at the FFS for 6 agonizing months. I honestly don't know how the people that were there for years lasted.
I always wondered how people let themselves get brainwashed in cults. It never made sense to me. I understand
now that the human mind is not always as strong as we want to believe.
I have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder
and borderline personality disorder. I also had substance abuse issues as a teen. I used drugs to numb the pain I felt
because finding an appropriate medication for my illness as a teen is very hard. Doctors are not supposed to diagnose bipolar in anyone younger than 18.
My parents tried putting me in numerous rehabs and psych wards but the short term just wasn't working. I would be good for a couple months and
then revert back to my old behavior. I was also missing so much school because of my issues. I kept getting kicked out of every high school my
parents enrolled me in. My parents finally found the FFS and thought it was the perfect place for me. To this day they do not want to believe how horrible the place was and how severe it damaged me. The FFS is very good at brainwashing everyone they come in contact with.
They convinced my parents that it was not a mental illness that caused me to act the way I did, it was the music and clothes I was
interested in. My parents threw out all my clothes, tapes, CD's, posters, basically everything I owned. They bought me new clothes that didn't fit right and I was not permitted to have any of my personal possesions like my journal. My first day at the FFS was not bad. People were very nice to me and they didn't force me to eat anything I didn't want. I figured it was just like the other places I had been in, I would just be there longer. I was so wrong. On my second day they still hadn't gotten me my psychiatric meds and I was getting very ill. I kept asking for my meds and they said that my meds were not a priority and I would get them when it was convenient for them. I grew increasingly ill and was starting to have psychotic delusions but no one seemed to care. They would not let me call my parents to let them know what was happening. Had my parents known they were withdrawing my meds, my parents would have thrown a fit. Eventually they got me meds, but would not give them to me as prescribed. I was anything but mentally stable. Two of the side effects of my meds was they made me gain weight and very tired. I was put on a trotting sanction(you have to jog everywhere and jog in place when you are standing)and
brought up in front of the family and humilated by everyone. I had 20 kids and 5 staff call me lazy and fat and told I would never find a man to
love me because I was so disgusting. I started having nightmares because I was brought up in front of everyone to be more and more and humilated.
They would keep telling me I wasn't being honest about certain things, when I was. I was trying so hard and doing every thing they said so
the verbal abuse would stop but it only got worse. You are not allowed to touch or look at the opposite sex but at dinner the seating was
boy girl boy girl, and they put the seats so close together its almost impossible not to brush up against the person sitting next to you once
and a while. The boys would tell staff I was touching them and that I creeped them out. I learned to not make eye contact with anyone and I was
terrified to look at anyone for fear they would say I was staring. I walked with my head down all the time.
Due to my nightmares and medication I was falling asleep in church(chapel was twice a day, once in the morning and once at night) and also in class.
A group of girls and staff did an intervention with me and accused me of staying up all night masterbating because one girl heard me tossing and turning.
I was yelled at and told that they will always know when I masterbated because lust causes fatigue and if I was tired it meant I was masterbating all night. I denied it because it wasn't true but no one would talk to me and I was always yelled at for everything. I had to run around the building 2 times every
morning and put on a work sanction to "wake me up". I eventually admitted to having a 'severe masterbatian' problem just so people would talk
to me. I was also assigned a junior sponser who was a tyrant. She followed me everywhere, constantly yelled at me and brought me up in front
of the family and made up things just to humiliate me. Noting I did was ever good enough and I felt like I would never leave. My phone calls
and mail were monitored so I couldn't tell my parents what was happening. I was forced to eat what made me sick as was everyone else.
I remember this one girl was a vegitarian when she came in and refused to eat meat. They made her sit in a corner until she ate her meal.
She didn't eat anything for two days and when she finally gave in they made her eat the meat she refused two days ago. You had to eat everything on your plate, even if you were full. If you didn't you were put in the infamous corner. I was in the corner so many times I cant remember. You had to sit the corner, look down and couldnt talk to anyone. They also made me miss school to sit in
the corner all day. I missed more school in the FFS than when I was on home schooling. My education level did not improve
and I was failing classes. In FFS you had to get a B to pass. I was getting more and more frustrated and whenever I showed the slightest sign of anger or depression I was rolled in a blanket and duct tape and thrown in the janitor closet alone for hours, one time a whole day. I couldn't use the rest room and was forced to urinate myself. When they saw what I had done they called me a disgusting pig and threw me in a scalding hot shower with my clothes on and threw insults at me. The abuse was getting so bad that I was suicidal and started wetting my bed. I wasn't getting better at the FFS I was getting worse. I was forced to tell my parents how happy I was there.
I ran away once and made it back to NYC. I took a bag of clothes with me and hitch hiked my way into town. I found a guy to
buy me a ticket to NJ (where I'm from. I had to switch buses in NYC and I lost all my street smarts. I was used to being in a cult
family like setting that I smiled at everyone and almost expected everyone to be safe. I was almost kidnapped by a guy who tried
to grab me but I got away. When I made it back home my mom drove me right back upstate. They didn't believe anything I told them and thought I was making it up. I tried to run away again about a month later. I was caught. Because I was 18 they were going to let
me go but I was not allowed to take anything with me but the clothes on my back. They said that everything I had belonged to my
parents and my parents wanted me at the FFS so I could not take anything because that would be stealing. I packed a bag anyway and Bob Runge grabbed, hit and wrestled me to the ground with two girls from my family. I was so mad that I broke his glasses which
I eventually had to pay for. I once again made it back home and was sent back.
My mental health was getting worse and I was developing severe stress disorder. One day I flipped out at the family and went to run
out the back door. A bunch of girls followed me and tackled me to the ground. I blacked out and started choking my junior sponser
. A staff had to smother me and make me pass out to make me stop. I didn't realize what I was doing, I was just doing it. They sent a psychiatrist to evaluate me and I lied and said I thought about killing her all the time and was doing it on purpose so they would send me out. I got my way and was sent to a psych ward. My parents were going to send me back but thankfully the FFS wouldn't take me back.
Upon leaving I developed severe anxiety disorder and didn't know how to socialize with others. I develpoed insominia and to this day I suffer
with nightmares and am terrified in social situations. My accounts may seem scattered but thats how my memories are. There is a lot I have
not mentioned because I do not want to make this a novel. I want to thank you for giving me the chance to tell my story to people who believe
me. Up until now no one has believed me. I was almost sent to Elan in Maine after but thankfully they would not let anyone on meds be
admitted and my parents would not allow that.
In another testimony someone mentioned that people do not succeed BECAUSE of the family school but IN SPITE of and that is so true. I am still in therapy and have moved to AZ, I graduated from college and now work with homeless youth.
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Daniel Merrill
I was seventeen when my parents made the decision to enroll me in TheFamily School in Hancock, NY. The next 26 months of my life were an
experience in survival.
At the school, I was stripped of my identity as soon as I
arrived. Most of life was stuffed full of activity. The 11 hour school
day and lack of any personal space or time is not important though. What is important is the absolute brainwashing, constant antagonizing, and harsh punishment methods.
I had to repeat my junior and some of my sophomore year when I
arrived at the school. This was due to improper paperwork, and a lack of care for transcripts.
For more than fourty thousand dollars a year, i had hoped to enroll where i had left in school. Instead, i was placed back in
earth science, where i wasted my time for a full year. I had aced the
midterm which was taken straight out of the regents final exam, and i was still not reevaluated or allowed to audit the course.
Every mealtime was a terror. In my "Family unit" we had
discussions at the table called "table topics". these topics involved
bringing concerns, real or imagined, to the attention of myself or one of my peers. The leader of my family was a self admitted sex addict, and every problem with a student was tainted by that.
These topics involved high levels of mental and emotional abuse designed to break down the psyche of the student involved. If this student did not say what the staff members wanted, they would be given a consequence; sitting or standing in the corner, being pulled out of class to do useless physical labor, alternative food(a single packet of cram of wheat for breakfast, or a single soy burger for lunch or dinner), denial of contact with parents, and many more punishments which were socially and emotionally damaging. Only a few members were educated in child care or any kind of therapy, and they seldom were involved in these table topics.
I was taken out of school in 2004 for more than 5 months, forced
to stand in the corner, trot while standing, eating 3 alternative meals
even though i am diabetic, and doing physical labor for 11 hours per day.
This labor included carring buckets full of rocks up a steep hill, labor in the kitchen and groundskeeping tasks. At one point in the winter, i was forced to stand in an outside hallway in the New York winter, when temperatures did not exceed 45 degrees inside even during the day.
My experience was certainly not the hardest which i have seen. Studentswere sometimes kept at the school for up to five years, and submitted tothe same amount of hardship. I saw one student commit suicide. Also, one winter I witnessed a restraint in the snow involving 3 large staff members,at least one of whom was sitting on the fourteen year old student.
In the time since I left the school I have experienced an incredible
amount of difficulty in rebuilding my identity and my ability to relate
to peers. I hope that this bill will help other children be protected from the hell which many of us have survived.
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I arrived to the Family Foundation School Inc. on January 7th 2003 and was expelled on May 5th 2004; I would like to enter this testimony to this case: A big problem with the school is the sexual issue. The school approaches human sexuality on a strictly Catholic perspective of sexuality is immoral and sexual urges of unwed teens are inappropriate and shameful.
The school's entire basis of expelling me was for not admitting to my rampant masturbation, something which did not exist due to my lack of homosexual urges and knowing that less than 4 feet away from me in any direction was another guy wasn’t exactly arousing.
A memorable experience was when two staff members confronted me on this very issue and when I denied that I was acting out sexually, one of them suggested that anyone in my situation would need some sort of release, at the time I was very heavy into prayer and meditation because I did not want to act out violently, and my retort was that my release was in prayer and meditation to which the staff member suggested that I by saying this I was somehow massaging his prostate (in cruder words of course). Verbal abuse was one of many ways the family school operates, which is sad but is not an isolated evil.
The family school advertises itself as a secular environment that promotes each individual religion. However, one should note the blatant disregard for dietary laws upheld by Islam and Judaism, and beyond sacrilege the family school was derisive towards these rules. A specific example of Passover comes to mind. Jewish people are not supposed to eat leavened food during Passover. Year round Jewish people are not supposed to eat pork, meat and dairy or seafood. The family school insisted that all of their students eat all the food placed in front of them, so during Passover when the rest of the students were having bacon lettuce and tomato, the Jewish kids had that too, on matzo. When the other kids were having Philly cheese steaks, the Jewish kids had that too, on matzo.
Next I would like to address the issue of labeling. The Family School loved to label their students with addictions and maledictions, they took great delight in informing me, 6'2 175 LBS at the time that I am a food addict and that I am obsessed with food and I use food as an escape. Moreover, I (according to them) was a sexual pervert who compulsively masturbated and I would inevitably wind up jailed, institutionalized or dead if I did not manage to graduate their program. The school didn't offer much for the imagination, there was very little encouragement for students to pursue their own wants or goals but rather goals were set by the school and if one did not choose to pursue those goals they risked punishment or a lengthier stay. These goals and expectations could be as simple as participating in an activities or extra curricular activities or as intense as committing to not date for at least 6 months after leaving etc.
Staff members were openly verbally abusive and derisive to students, there were incidents where staff members were physically abusive but that wasn’t really prevalent the main form of abuse that I felt was the most sinister was food depravation. It is understandable to not feed someone who is actively being violent or physically acting out but if someone is physically cooperating to any extent they should not be deprived of food for long term period and kids who go there are customarily. The school is set up in a way where kids are forced to be paranoid their entire stay; because at any given moment what little dignity you are granted in life can be stripped away from you. At the school reality and truth is not dictated by reality and truth but rather by the whimsical perceptions of the staff members who take on a holier than thou role.
After leaving the school I had no contact with them. Several times I reached out to the administration and several times I had my hand slapped away. At one point per a conversation I had with an alumnus in which I made a joking reference to bringing a Swiss army knife to the alumni reunion in the event of any shenanigans as a device of self defense, the administration sent police officers to my home to inform me that if I showed up at the reunion I would be arrested. As far as success rates, indeed in order to leave the school one needs some sort of college plan but that doesn't mean that anyone who leaves is prepared for college. The school doesn't allow organic growth and therefore causes the students to be completely incapable of studying without a strict framework, hence the vast majority wind up failing miserably in college life. Also no reasonable framework is setup for the students to have a support network at the school, students are sent off into a cold cruel world with dead ideals involving principles that weren't upheld by those who enforced them upon them and as a result the rate of failure is staggering, rather than making recovery appealing to the students in the school recovery is made abhorrent a "do this or else" scenario is set up and so any success attained while in the school is just that, success attained in the school, and any success outside of the school is a fluke not a given.
I am a perfect example of a fluke. I was expelled for not working the program prescribed to me by the school (supposedly). I was informed quite assuredly by the principal that I would be dropped off in Binghamton and that I wouldn't last a very long time. When I finally failed I would be accepted back as I had hit bottom.
I arrived in Binghamton and immediately continued where I had left off in the school, doing everything I could to replicate the life I had envisioned in the school using religion and recovery as my backbone. I found solace in a 12 step program and found myself a home group and a sponsor, my sponsor to this day makes efforts to break me of emotional damage inflicted by the school.
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Amy Johnson
My name is Amy Johnson and I attended The Family Foundation School in Hancock, NY from August 2000 through June 2002. Over my 22 months at FFS I witnessed, partook in and was encouraged to emotionally, verbally, mentally and in some cases physically abuse my peers. The school as it was during my 22 months operated on fear and isolation to force conformity in what I thought then and am certain now is unethical treatment of institionalized populations.
Although I graduated from FFS over 5 years ago and by the schools standards considered a success I still have nightmares, instrusive thoughts, panic attacks and an overall feeling of betrayal stemming from my time at the school. I however was one of the few who attended FFS, during my time and in my opinion, who needed some kind of long-term residential treatment. Afterall I was a teenage drug addict, I prostituted myself for the narcotics I abused and had been placed over a dozen times before being sent to The Family School. I think, to the school, I must represent the typical adolescent they are trying to save. But years later I have focused myself, my education, my career on stopping treatment centers like The Family Foundation School from abusing their patients/clients the way they abused me and the way I witnessed them abuse others.
The school was awful; when I tell people about standing in corners, work sanctions, contacting parents twice a week for five minute phone calls, the lengths other students went to run away, being refused an HIV/AIDS test until I passed a math course, never receiving dental or optical exams, being forced to contact my father who had sexually abused me for years because the school wouldn't let me graduate without forgiving him, staff laughing as students cried, screamed and urinated themselves in isolation rooms, staff throttle students to the ground, restraining them despite the student remaining still when I've told people this over the years their reaction is always the same "I would have done ... and gotten out of there" but it wasn't that simple. I was told if I left the school even after my eighteenth birthday I would spend the next X number of years in prison or the rest of my life in a psychiatric ward. I was told and believed what the school said but I never believed they were in it for my best interest. While a new chapel was being built our dorms were a filthy, disgusting, bug infested, rotting, molding mess that parents were prohibited from seeing. At the school the students do all the manual labor such as cutting the acres of grass, shoveling upstate NY snow each fall and winter, preparing and serving the meals, cleaning the school and house. The treatment aspects of the school were only apparent in our family leaders strict interpretation of Alcoholics Anonymous 12-steps and it's Judeo-Christian roots.
What I witnessed at the school was horrific; within my first 6 months I had witnessed an exorcism, several restraints, table topics that ranged from how writing to your parents that you missed them was a manipulation to multiple run-aways. I saw some terrible things at the school but for me the worst part was the hierarchy of things. If you were at the school for more than a few months you were encouraged, expected and eventually did participate in table topics. We all torn each other down for the approval of staff and to divert their attention from whatever we may have done that day. I personally went after several students and was always praised for doing so, I was a senior member by doing so.
I had been at the school for less than 3 months when I witnessed the exorcism of a girl who I only knew of as what could happen if the rules of Family Five weren't followed. Jessica was in sub-five, on a slew of sanction including standing 24 hours a day, mayo and tuna for meals, speak when spoken to, house blackout, family blackout, and a work sanction. I didn't know this girl or anything about her but I knew it was wrong that for taking too long in the shower or not completing a throughout inventory card she should be held down on the floor of our filthy dorm room while her peers told her to calm down and said Hail Mary's. It was also during my first 6 months that I was placed on family blackout (where you can not contact your family by either their or the schools request) and put in the corner for failing a math test.
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Leah Pallor
My name is Leah Pallor. I am not very good at writing but I do know what I endured at the Family Foundation schoo and I will share it all. I was 15 years old when it all began. An adolescent that was suffering from depression due to losing my father at age 10 to cancer and a dramatic social life at public school. My mom felt desperate and looked into places she could send me for help. This is when she came across The Family Foundation School.
I was awoken in the morning by my mom and two escorts who shackled me and put me in the backseat of a car where I would be headed to "my new school". I cried and was so confused, but I complied because I wanted to shackles off.
As I arrived at the school I was escorted inside where I was stripped of almost everything I had. I remember my second meal they served me was fish. I get sick from fish every time I eat it. I explained this to them but they told me I had to eat it anyway. I refused so they had me sit in the corner where they took my shoes away and told me I wasn’t allowed to eat at all until I ate my fish. Next meaL that came around they brought my fish back out and said I had to eat it. They literally starved me and told me I will go to the hospital and get fed through tubes.
I finally gave in and ate the fish and after about two bites, I vomited. Everytime we had seafood I would vomit but they still amde me eat it.
I decided to run away. The police found me coming out of the woods and the school promised me a phone call home if I came back and so I did. They never gave me the phone call. I was taken the privilege of speaking to or getting or sending mail to my family for three and a half months. I was put on "sanctions" where I couldn’t wear makeup, jewelry or name brand clothes. I had to wear my hair in a tight bun or else they would cut it off and even though my clothes were huge on me they still said they were too tight. My mother had to keep buying new clothes to send me there. I only had two outfits they approved of me wearing. The whole time I was there, the staff humiliated me by making me out to be a sex addict flirt when all I ever did was kiss a boy. Sex wasn't even on my mind yet.
They had me make a dishonesty list to share with my mother and every time I made a real one out they told me it wasn’t good enough. They didn’t approve the list until I said I was doing worse things than I really was.
I was on "blackout" with boys almost the whole time I was there which really affected me when I came out of the school.
I was wrapped in blankets and forced to eat nothing but dry tuna and water even though it made me sick. I was also put on a sanction to eat nothing but bread and water and remained on that for almost three weeks. When my sister came to take me out of there she said my complexion was very green in color due to malnutrition.
I left the Family School very brain washed and afraid of the world and never to trust anyone. I still have nightmares that I am there and when I try to run its like running under water and I couldnt get out. I definitely feel traumatized by my experience
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My name is Brendan McMahon I understand those of you investigating this matter will have much testimony from many facilities to read through so i appologize for the length. I wanted to make sure you had as full and accurate a picture as I could provide of a very complicated and very weird experience. Really it would take a novel or feature length film to give you an accurate idea.. regardless Link title If you wish to jump ahead the second and third paragraphs are probably going to be of the most interest to you.
I spent 14 months in the facility one of the record short stays at the time because there was an 18 month minimum though it was rare that they let anyone go in that short period of time. Upon arriving at the Family I was welcomed fairly warmly ( I soon realized this was only because my father was there) I smoked my last cigarette on the front step and handed the pack over knowing I would be searched and wrongly assuming I would find a student who would supply me with one later. They took my cloths and replaced them. They also took any reading material I may have selected to bring with me and music.
They put me with a buddy (a senior member (a person who had formed into the model)) he seemed bizarrely positive about the place when speaking to my dad. He emphatically emphasized how grateful he was that he came here and that it changed his life for the better. I said goodbye to my dad and he drove off. They explained to me what I was not to talk about, that I was not to hum any music that was not approved by the ffs, not to read any newspapers, I was not allowed to use the telephone, they would read my mail, “so I better not say anything negative in my letters”. I was not allowed to be alone. I was not allowed to masturbate (they monitored the showers 3 minutes max with someone standing next to the shower and went with you to the bathroom). Basically all information coming into or out of my mind was to be dictated by and monitored by the FFS, and anything I did or said which indicated a lack of 100 percent compliance and belief in the FFS philosophy would be punished harshly. In addition if I so much as suspected let alone overheard or witnessed anyone doing or saying anything "negative" I would be held equally responsible for their actions as if they were my own including witnessing someone else witnessing something and not saying anything about it, you seriously could not get away with anything period. Aside from the strict rules something seemed awfully strange about this place from the very first person i spoke to. I asked questions and couldn't seem to get any answers. It was like talking to computers that were only programmed with certain responses. It didn't take long to realize everyone was brainwashed or pretending to be. Everyone was a brick wall. I was freaked out by this i started thinking i was on a very creepy episode of the twilight zone. I actually believed that I was going to find a way out of this place. I thought I could get my parents to come get me or something but that was pretty difficult considering I had no way of contacting them at first and when I finally did get that privilege they explained any attempt at "manipulating” my parents by being negative about the program would immediately result in the call being ended and I would be on blackout where I couldn’t speak to anyone period especially my family. I also found out later they had already informed my parents that I may attempt to “manipulate” them and that it would be in my best interest not to succumb to my dishonest behavior. After all they were the experts. They knew exactly how to handle a troubled youth, and in the end I would be grateful for this experience. I was labeled negative of course because I had not yet been conditioned by their weird mind control tactics. I tried to fight it but as one of the senior members said when I was trying to argue one night "he'll learn" and I did.
I was not to speak my own opinion or indicate that I had one under any circumstances, unless it was in 100 percent agreement with the FFS philosophy. In fact the FFS philosophy was to be my opinion 100 percent of the time if I indicated or was even accused of anything less I was to be publicly confronted and screamed at. Then I would be told to sit in a corner. The Corner... you know like in preschool go sit in time out. The Corner was indefinite, with a minimum of 24 hours. If you did not stay in the corner or if you refused you would be duct taped to the chair or your feet would be duct taped together your arms would be duct taped to your back and you would be rolled in a blanket like a burrito and that would be wrapped in more duct tape then you would be put in isolation in duct tape and a blanket which was actually a big boot closet with some book shelves in it. When they decided it had been long enough they would let you out of the blanket then maybe isolation then from isolation back to the corner then you might be aloud out of the corner 24 hours later if you were able to convince them you believed you had done something wrong and you were sorry ect.. It was pretty simple. Most of us, knowing what they would do if we did not comply, allowed ourselves to be subjected to whatever other humiliating and strange punishments they would think of. If they told us to trot (which is where you have to trot any time you aren't sitting down) we trotted. If they stood us up at the table (which is where you stand up alone in front of everyone for any infraction of the rules) we stood up. If they asked a girl to recount her promiscuous sexual history (and she better have one to confess if she ever wants to be left alone) …she would. If they screamed at her telling her she was a whore and was destined to be dope shooting hooker…. she listened… and agreed. If they took away out privilege to speak… we didn't speak. If they said sit in the corner ….we sat there. They had a pile of rocks which some kids would have to move back and forth all day from one spot to another which as tiring as it could be in itself could be worse if you were also on a trotting sanction. They also had a large pile of cow manure for the same purpose. This seemed to be a particularly popular sanction for kids that were too fat. Fat kids were always determined to be lazy slobs who needed to exercise and work more. They were very open with degrading language and screaming they would also throw food at you in some cases while they were verbally berating you.
I would like to also s take a moment to illustrate one very important part of all this. They did not restrain kids because they were a threat to anyone else or themselves physically. It was very rare that physical altercations were not initiated by staff either by ordering other students to wrap them up in duct tape or staff doing it themselves more times than not they utilized the other kids who were there to assist in these procedures. In most cases restraints were used because of passive defiance. As stubborn as many of us were very few of those who were restrained were doing any more than saying no. I can recall only once when a kid was threatening to attack another person and was restrained. There was also another instance when a kid was cutting his wrists so they duct taped his hands in balls so he could not use them to hold anything. Most instances went something like this There was a kid named who refused to mop a floor saying he just wasn't going to do it.He did not threaten anyone physically he did not get violent at all he simply said no i won't do it. He was supposed to be mopping the floor so they threw him on the ground dumped mop water on him and used him to mop the floor until he agreed to mop the floor with the mop. The point was that he was going to mop the floor one way or another there was no way around it you were going to act say and become exactly what they wanted. Most of the time however they would just duct tape you up and wrap you in a blanket and wrap duct tape around that.
This is the way it was for us ….we smiled when any outsiders were there acting like everything was perfect… assuring parents on tours this was the greatest place in the world …Seeing kids being duct taped up became as normal as kids in a regular school going to detention or getting write offs. I would step over squirming bodies on the floor in the dorm while talking and brushing my teeth like it was perfectly normal ….and it was at the time that’s just what happened if you didn't want to listen. It was their fault for being in the duct tape. I saw kids get punched and lifted 6 feet in the air and dropped on the ground while in these restraints. The one thing though that never seemed right was the newsletter they sent our parents. It never mentioned any of this. It always talked about the great things we were doing grades sports choir. They never told our parents the truth and for years after I left, my parents were resistant to the truth. I told them about what really went on.
After I left I felt like an alien visiting earth… everything I saw people say or do seemed wrong. I felt like I was constantly doing something wrong.. It literally took years before I was able to cope with what the family did to my emotions my mind my spirit and my personality. It has been ten years since i was at the family and the last time i had a nightmare about being there again was 2 months ago. I was socially years behind people my own age. I had no idea how to handle the opposite sex considering for fourteen months I was monitored in the shower and the bathroom to prevent me from masturbating. Anyway I think this is enough to give an accurate picture of what the family school was like during the time I was there
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Fay Leff
I'm going to attempt to make this as cohesive as possible; however, I find I have trouble remembering lots from my short stay at the Family Foundation School (FFS), much seems to be blocked out in my mind.
During my stay at FFS, I remember on several occasions witnessing students being restrained by other students (at the direction of staff) and being carried off to the isolation room. I remember a time when a new girl with bulimia was restrained by students while one staff member yelled in her face during dinner.
One of the saddest things I can recall there was a young female student telling me about how she was a lesbian before FFS and had a girlfriend, but how she now realized how wrong that was. The idea that the school convinced her this was immoral and belittled entirely the feelings she had had for this other woman blew my mind.
I stayed quiet during most of my stay at FFS, and luckily did not experience any of the physical abuses first hand. However one cannot deny the emotional HELL of living in this environment. One of the rules I struggled with the most while there was not being allowed to journal. No journaling! A proven, well used, standard therapeutic practice was not allowed! Because we were never allowed to speak our minds without fear of punishment, I began to feel like a prisoner in my own head. I remember waiting to use the bathroom all night so that I could use the small bathroom in our trailer/dorm JUST so I would have a few moments to myself to think. On a spiritual retreat, I actually got in trouble for journaling! I’ve gone back and read these small journals I wrote… and it’s like I don’t even know the person that wrote them.
I’ve found inventory lists I had to write while there of all the things we had done wrong, and I don’t even know what I was talking about in half of the items. I just knew I had to fill up that page with something.
Even after leaving the school, the emotional abuse still haunted me. I had dreams for months, and continue to still have some to this day, of being sent back, kicking and screaming, telling anyone that will listen that I am 18 now and they can’t send me back, and then being told due to some loophole, they can. When I first returned to my high school after FFS, I had many problems socially. I had always been an outgoing person and found I had a hard time fitting back into normal life. I had no idea how to talk to boys, because while at the school we weren’t even allowed to look a boy in the eye! I would shy away from my boyfriend and even wait till he left the room to change as quickly as possible so he would not see my body (even though he had before). I had to re-learn how to hug, be affectionate, etc. I was only at FFS 6 months; I can’t even imagine how long it took someone who was there the recommended 18 months to re-adjust to regular life.
FFS claims that things have changed, and that the school we all remember is not how it is today. However, there’s no real way for anyone to know that, given the current situation. Students are not given contact info for any child advocates. All phone calls and letters are closely monitored. Students are forbidden any contact with the world outside of FFS. Even if visitors or parents come to visit, students were never allowed to say anything of what was going on without being accused of trying to manipulate their parents to get out of the program, and then get punished for trying. Many people like me just didn’t say anything cause it was easier to lay low and stay out of trouble. If these practices are still ongoing at the school today, there will never be any way for any outsiders to know what is really going on in the school.
To my knowledge, no one I came in contact with during my stay at FFS had a PhD or doctorate. I believe there was a psychologist associated with the school that was supposed to meet with all of us, but in my stay I never talked to such a person. In total in 6 months I believe I had 2 family ‘sessions’ with Susan Runge, and maybe one or 2 alone with her though I can’t remember for sure. Our group therapy “class’ was a joke. Even their website says that they put less emphasis on master’s level clinicians than on peer therapy… how can this be best? Seems to me for the enormous amount paid by parents for this program, therapy of any kind should never be run by a social worker alone, but always have a practicing, licensed Psychologist present.
The biggest problem I found during my stay at FFS was the oversights of their admissions process. As mentioned, I was an A student. I did not get in trouble in school; all of my teachers loved me. I did not drink. I did not do drugs. I was not sexually promiscuous. I did not have an eating disorder. I had previously been to 2 psychiatrists and one psychologist. I’ve since learned both told my parents that I was just normal healthy adolescent. Why then did FFS accept me as a student? Other than talking to my parents, no research was done on my background. No one at my high school was interviewed. None of my friends’ parents were called. No one spoke to my previous therapists. As I’ve grown up and matured, I’ve realized that most of my problems with my parents were due to my mother’s unhealthy mental diseases. Because of the lack of background checks into whether a student even NEEDS to go to FFS, I was admitted solely based on the statements of a mental ill parent. Because of this, my adolescence was robbed from me. Because of this, I almost was not able to graduate high school when I returned. Because of this, I’m not even in my high school yearbook. And if anyone at FFS has done even a miniscule amount of research, all of this could have been prevented.
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Chavaya Beebee Galvao
Among the staff who engage in the negative behaviors are Ted Towsley, Audra Towsley, Paul Geer, Robin Deucey, Mike Deucey, and Rita Argiros. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bushel, most of the staff did have the best interests of the students at heart, but if you will note, the turnover rate is very high, because many staff members were deemed too "soft" and not punishing enough, or they simply did not have the stomach for the atrocities that have been committed at the school, so they chose to leave.
I will report briefly on some of the experiences that I had while a student at the Family Foundation School. On my first day, I was lied to by my parents (who were counseled by the school to do as much), and brought to the school under false pretenses. Once in the locker room, I started towards the door, and was immediately slammed against the ground with two female staff members and two male staff members on top of me. I had no forewarning that this would happen if I moved towards the door, they simply jumped on me. I was scared, and they were cutting my air supply off. After a few minutes, I was let up and forced to continue inprocessing.
The same night that I was inprocessed, I began to notice something very strange: All the young people at the school talked the same, walked the same, moved alike, and it seemed that the ones who chose to be themselves were consigned to sitting in the corner facing a wall, removed from the general population, or standing outside in the freezing hallway eating either plain tuna fish and water, or nothing at all. So, I began talking, moving and acting like all the other students so that I would not have to sit in a corner, or worse yet, haul buckets of gravel back and forth on a worksanction. Everyone knew that everyone else was full of shit, but we were all too scared to say anything about what we really thought.
The months went by, and I began to run on anxiety. Five minutes to get to class, no time to go to the bathroom, one study hall to do homework, table topics, picking up other students that were deemed a "threat," complete lack of privacy, being punished through food deprivation, constant fear of being resigned to the corner or put on exile, constant yelling, kids running away in the middle of the night, everything was extremely stressful. It was just too much. In fact, I believe that my problems with high blood pressure were caused by those two years of my life that I was shut inside the Family School.
I don't believe that in a long-term placement facility, it is right to have such complete autonomy over the lives of hundreds of teenagers. The punishments, had they been meted out by parents, would have resulted in the involvement of child protective services. I simply do not believe that starving, forcibly restraining, or locking children up in a tiny cubicle letting them urinate and vomit on themselves is the answer to drug addiction or alcoholism. In fact, 90% of graduates from the Family Foundation School "relapse" into the same behavior, but many times the addiction is exacerbated by the treatment that they have recieved at the school.
I hope that the suffering of hundreds of children and teenagers can come to light and aid in closing this establishment's doors for once and for all, ending the profit that a select few administrators are making from what can only be termed as child abuse.
I was at the school from 2003 to 2005, I never experienced hitting or slapping but I was manhandled on one occasion, resulting in bruises on my arms, and I was denied proper nutrition on several occasions. There were several occurrences in which I was severely and publicly humiliated by staff members, as well as two work sanctions in which
I was forced to work from 7:15AM to 6:30PM, during one I contracted bronchitis and complained of dizziness and shortness of breath several times before collapsing due to neglect of my illness.
In addition, I have eye-witnessed several abusive situations that took place at the school, including peer bullying that was encouraged and kids locked into tiny rooms and not even being allowed out to use the bathroom.
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Save a child's life? Are you implying such a hypothetical kid was an immediate danger to himself or others. If that was the case, most schools would exclude enrollment on that basis (most schools generally have sections in their contracts to this effect... if you can find one that that doesn't, i'd be interested in hearing of it). So this means that most kids in program are, by the program's own standards, not an immediate danger to themselves or others. In this case, the APA would agree with me that such a placement would be inappropriate.
Yes!! Only seconds to live lol. You are so dramatic,Michael. We should kidnap them and drag them to the nearest Gulag and torture them so they wont die! LOL
Furthermore. I truly believe that none of these places actually help kids. Even the "good" ones. There is no evidence to show that residential treatment works, and although we can share anecdotal evidence all day going one way or the other, it's not conclusive at all.
So either side is correct or wrong depending how you want to perceive it since it is not conclusive.
That being said, the fact that there are few, if any, pro-program graduates on this site (which allows all people) says a lot to me... which is not even to mention the surveys of Allison Pinto.
I dont believe many pro program people are going to tell their stories here after reading what is posted here. But look at the sheer volume of kids going through these programs and then at the few who post negative comment here. Even if we took the few I bet a very small minority, if any of them, talked about Gulags, kidnapping and torture before they came to fornits. Its a learned language that is taught here. Look at some of the regulars early posts and then the way they speak now.
Well. I've never met a parent whose first stop has been Fornits or any other forum allowing criticism of the industry. It's a matter of search keywords. Google "troubled teen" and see how many critical site you find. A parent doesn't end up on Fornits unless they have already contacted an ed-con, is considering a particular school, and has googled that particular school.
You avoid my question.
That question is leading. See my point above on the effectiveness of residential treatment.
Avoided another.
Yes, i'm aware of that. All that proves shows to me is that parents cant just look at watchlists or one organization to consider a program "safe".
Yes, the word “bad” or “Good” is very subjective each person or website has their own interpretation and they may be wrong. I remember a certain person jumping down my throat for not referring parents to isaccorp. A parent reviewing isaccorp would find it safe to send their child to FFS where fornits describes it as the worse place on the face of this planet.
With all the bad programs out there, while there might be a hypothetical "safe" program, it's impossible to tell the difference. It's like trying to find the one fresh apple in a cartload of rotten ones. The cultic influence of Synanon, Est, and LifeSpring (among others) is that taint which has rotten the whole bunch. Sadly it spreads. Cultic groups are like a cancer for which there is no chemo.
That is why parents seek out Educational Consultants (as they should) to guide them thru this mess.
This industry can't be "cured. It's way past that point. The way I see it, the only solution is to put the patient down and end the entire industry. The economy will take care of most of the programs. Negative PR from this site and other will take care of the rest.
The better schools and programs will survive. My boss says a few good mom and pop places will be lost. But in a bad economy it cant be helped. Maybe they can get some of the bail out money.
Michael we are on opposite sides of the fence on this issue. The only difference is I am open to the people I talk to and provide information from both sides. You tend to think you have all the answers so you withold info which goes against your thinking. I have met educational consultants who believe, like yourself, that parents should only be given filtered information which will persuade them to have their child placed.
I think they are wrong and you are wrong too. Parents should be allowed to determine for themselves and we should be open with them. You should give this some thought and think about providing parents with more than one point of view.
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Melanie Bilcik
Reading others Testimonys about their experience at the Family Foundation brings back a lot of bad memories that I have tried to forget. I guess I thought I was just really bad or extra sensitive and didn't think anyone was affected as I was. It brings me so much peace to know that others had endured what I had (if that makes sense).
I was at the FFS for 6 agonizing months. I honestly don't know how the people that were there for years lasted.
I always wondered how people let themselves get brainwashed in cults. It never made sense to me. I understand
now that the human mind is not always as strong as we want to believe.
My parents finally found the FFS and thought it was the perfect place for me. To this day they do not want to believe how horrible the place was and how severe it damaged me. The FFS is very good at brainwashing everyone they come in contact with.
They convinced my parents that it was not a mental illness that caused me to act the way I did, it was the music and clothes I was
interested in. My parents threw out all my clothes, tapes, CD's, posters, basically everything I owned. They bought me new clothes that didn't fit right and I was not permitted to have any of my personal possesions like my journal.
My first day at the FFS was not bad. People were very nice to me and they didn't force me to eat anything I didn't want. I figured it was just like the other places I had been in, I would just be there longer. I was so wrong.
On my second day they still hadn't gotten me my psychiatric meds and I was getting very ill. I kept asking for my meds and they said that my meds were not a priority and I would get them when it was convenient for them.
I grew increasingly ill and was starting to have psychotic delusions but no one seemed to care. They would not let me call my parents to let them know what was happening. Had my parents known they were withdrawing my meds, my parents would have thrown a fit. Eventually they got me meds, but would not give them to me as prescribed. I was anything but mentally stable.
Two of the side effects of my meds was they made me gain weight and very tired. I was put on a trotting sanction(you have to jog everywhere and jog in place when you are standing)and brought up in front of the family and humilated by everyone. I had 20 kids and 5 staff call me lazy and fat and told I would never find a man to love me because I was so disgusting.
I started having nightmares because I was brought up in front of everyone to be more and more and humilated.
They would keep telling me I wasn't being honest about certain things, when I was. I was trying so hard and doing every thing they said so the verbal abuse would stop but it only got worse.
You are not allowed to touch or look at the opposite sex but at dinner the seating was boy girl boy girl, and they put the seats so close together its almost impossible not to brush up against the person sitting next to you once and a while. The boys would tell staff I was touching them and that I creeped them out. I learned to not make eye contact with anyone and I was terrified to look at anyone for fear they would say I was staring. I walked with my head down all the time.
Due to my nightmares and medication I was falling asleep in church(chapel was twice a day, once in the morning and once at night) and also in class. A group of girls and staff did an intervention with me and accused me of staying up all night masterbating because one girl heard me tossing and turning. I was yelled at and told that they will always know when I masterbated because lust causes fatigue and if I was tired it meant I was masterbating all night. I denied it because it wasn't true but no one would talk to me and I was always yelled at for everything. I had to run around the building 2 times every morning and put on a work sanction to "wake me up". I eventually admitted to having a 'severe masterbatian' problem just so people would talk
to me.
I was also assigned a junior sponser who was a tyrant. She followed me everywhere, constantly yelled at me and brought me up in front of the family and made up things just to humiliate me.
Noting I did was ever good enough and I felt like I would never leave. My phone calls and mail were monitored so I couldn't tell my parents what was happening. I was forced to eat what made me sick as was everyone else.
I remember this one girl was a vegitarian when she came in and refused to eat meat. They made her sit in a corner until she ate her meal. She didn't eat anything for two days and when she finally gave in they made her eat the meat she refused two days ago. You had to eat everything on your plate, even if you were full. If you didn't you were put in the infamous corner. I was in the corner so many times I cant remember. You had to sit the corner, look down and couldnt talk to anyone. They also made me miss school to sit in the corner all day.
I missed more school in the FFS than when I was on home schooling. My education level did not improve
and I was failing classes. In FFS you had to get a B to pass.
I was getting more and more frustrated and whenever I showed the slightest sign of anger or depression I was rolled in a blanket and duct tape and thrown in the janitor closet alone for hours, one time a whole day. I couldn't use the rest room and was forced to urinate myself. When they saw what I had done they called me a disgusting pig and threw me in a scalding hot shower with my clothes on and threw insults at me.
The abuse was getting so bad that I was suicidal and started wetting my bed. I wasn't getting better at the FFS I was getting worse. I was forced to tell my parents how happy I was there.
I ran away once and made it back to NYC. I took a bag of clothes with me and hitch hiked my way into town. I found a guy to
buy me a ticket to NJ (where I'm from. I had to switch buses in NYC and I lost all my street smarts. I was used to being in a cult
family like setting that I smiled at everyone and almost expected everyone to be safe. I was almost kidnapped by a guy who tried
to grab me but I got away.
When I made it back home my mom drove me right back upstate. They didn't believe anything I told them and thought I was making it up. I tried to run away again about a month later. I was caught. Because I was 18 they were going to let
me go but I was not allowed to take anything with me but the clothes on my back. They said that everything I had belonged to my
parents and my parents wanted me at the FFS so I could not take anything because that would be stealing. I packed a bag anyway and Bob Runge grabbed, hit and wrestled me to the ground with two girls from my family. I was so mad that I broke his glasses which
I eventually had to pay for. I once again made it back home and was sent back.
My mental health was getting worse and I was developing severe stress disorder. One day I flipped out at the family and went to run out the back door. A bunch of girls followed me and tackled me to the ground. I blacked out and started choking my junior sponser
. A staff had to smother me and make me pass out to make me stop. I didn't realize what I was doing, I was just doing it. They sent a psychiatrist to evaluate me and I lied and said I thought about killing her all the time and was doing it on purpose so they would send me out. I got my way and was sent to a psych ward.
Upon leaving I developed severe anxiety disorder and didn't know how to socialize with others. I develpoed insominia and to this day I suffer with nightmares and am terrified in social situations.
My accounts may seem scattered but thats how my memories are. There is a lot I have
not mentioned because I do not want to make this a novel. I want to thank you for giving me the chance to tell my story to people who believe me. Up until now no one has believed me.
I was almost sent to Elan in Maine after but thankfully they would not let anyone on meds be
admitted and my parents would not allow that.
I am still in therapy and have moved to AZ, I graduated from college and now work with homeless youth.
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So either side is correct or wrong depending how you want to perceive it since it is not conclusive.
I've just invented a product. It's a secret recepie that only I know. It cures all illnesses. Now I will market it as 97% sucessfull. It's highly addictive and just might kill you, but those who it works for... they swear by it!
Point being that you're reversing the burden of proof. In order to advertise something as working, it actually has to work. Most of the staff at these places are unqualified and most of the "therapy" amounts to cult-derived quackery. Like snake oil, it's some powerful shit... but it doesn't necessarily mean it's helpful. It just means it's popular, which can be for all sorts of reasons, such as an illusion of efficacy.
Do parents ask you about effectiveness? What do you say?
@Guest: Please stop posting those FFS testimonials over and over again. We get the point, but it interferes with dialogue and Kathy is unlikely to care since she refers there and has already implied she sees such testimonial as untruthful and/or biased.
Why not ask her a question instead, such as "how do you dismiss all these allegations of abuse when they all describe similar occurrences?"
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KathyS, "edcon", thinks that Tony & Betty Argiros, who did that to Melanie should not be in prison.
Rather, Kathys thinks they should continue to have young adults sent to them so they can hold them in 24/7 lock-down, without contact with the outside world, withuot oversight, with totalistic control of their prisoners.
Thank you for representing EdCons so accurately KAthyS.
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KathyS is theWHO. To those too stupid to figure it out, well... you deserve to be trolled.
Oh I agree with you on this one, especially the last post. But I still think he got his sister involved to provide a believable other voice, especially in the beginning. It's not exactly without precedent here on fornits, to have multiple people posting under one "user name".
that would explain why thewho sounded so different every couple of weeks or so. In fact, he would go back and forth between sounding like Hal from 2001 A Space Odyssey, to rather like this twit.
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I've just invented a product. It's a secret recepie that only I know. It cures all illnesses. Now I will market it as 97% sucessfull. It's highly addictive and just might kill you, but those who it works for... they swear by it!
Point being that you're reversing the burden of proof. In order to advertise something as working, it actually has to work. Most of the staff at these places are unqualified and most of the "therapy" amounts to cult-derived quackery. Like snake oil, it's some powerful shit... but it doesn't necessarily mean it's helpful. It just means it's popular, which can be for all sorts of reasons, such as an illusion of efficacy.
Do parents ask you about effectiveness? What do you say?
No I am not reversing any proof. Parents ask me about the effectiveness and I give them information on individual schools or programs. I tell them that the key is find a program which is a good match. Which is one of the keys to success. I really believe many of the kids here who had a bad experience were placed in the wrong program. If they had the advantages and information we have today they might not be here complaining about how poorly they did. Many kids have problems with authority and if you match them up with the wrong program it could be trouble for them as an example.
@Guest: Please stop posting those FFS testimonials over and over again. We get the point, but it interferes with dialogue and Kathy is unlikely to care since she refers there and has already implied she sees such testimonial as untruthful and/or biased.
Why not ask her a question instead, such as "how do you dismiss all these allegations of abuse when they all describe similar occurrences?"
I have read most of them. I don’t dismiss them. Most of the problems have been resolved or are being worked on, I could sit and post success stories all day long on fornits but I don’t think it would change your minds either. I think they would be dismissed out of hand.
I don’t represent other educational consultants here with my views, just myself.
There is a football party in the other room. I am being called in, probably to make a dip LOL. I will check back in awhile.
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Its a learned language that is taught here.
That is true, and one reason why I don't use those terms. Even so, what they described when first coming here, regardless of descriptive language used, remains constant.
Look at some of the regulars early posts and then the way they speak now.
And me?
Well. I've never met a parent whose first stop has been Fornits or any other forum allowing criticism of the industry. It's a matter of search keywords. Google "troubled teen" and see how many critical site you find. A parent doesn't end up on Fornits unless they have already contacted an ed-con, is considering a particular school, and has googled that particular school.
You avoid my question.
I did? Your question was a two parter "Why wouldn’t you recommend that parents visit strugglingteens.com so that they can see both sides of the issue? You told me that they already have this information, but how do you know?"
Part 1, why wouldnt I? because they've already seen other sites. Part 2: how do I know that? see above. I've never seen an exception to that. I wish I could intercept parents earlier, but the "troubled teen" keyword is proving elusive. In that hypothetical case, I would probably recommend parents reseach the other side, but I would not refer to any particular site as it would violate my no-referrals policy (conflict of interest, among other reasons... I can elaborate if you wish.).
That question is leading. See my point above on the effectiveness of residential treatment.
Avoided another.
Your question was leading. "Doesnt it ever bother you that a parent may come onto fornits and decide not to get help for their child and that child and family would suffer because of it?" includes the words "would suffer". Implied is that if a parent decides not to place, they and their child will suffer. I do not agree that would happen if a parent did not place (other than would naturally) and thus it could not possibly bother me. That's why your question was leading, and why I referred back to the effectiveness.
Yes, i'm aware of that. All that proves shows to me is that parents cant just look at watchlists or one organization to consider a program "safe".
Yes, the word “bad” or “Good” is very subjective each person or website has their own interpretation and they may be wrong. I remember a certain person jumping down my throat for not referring parents to isaccorp. A parent reviewing isaccorp would find it safe to send their child to FFS
Not true. ISAC is quite clear that the industry as a whole is not safe and quite clear that just because a program is not on their watchlist does not make it safe. Otherwise they woudn't need the "warning signs" and so forth to give further advice.
where fornits describes it as the worse place on the face of this planet.
If it's really that much of a big deal to you, I can call up Shelby Earnshaw and work with her to get FFS on their watchlist. Jon's testimony and another sworn statement corroborating it might be enough to do the trick (I'd have to check with Shelby and see what the deal is with that)
That is why parents seek out Educational Consultants (as they should) to guide them thru this mess.
Or into danger. You already admitted that it's impossible for a parent to know if an educational consultant is taking referral fees (kickbacks).
The better schools and programs will survive. My boss says a few good mom and pop places will be lost. But in a bad economy it cant be helped. Maybe they can get some of the bail out money.
I thought you were opposed to such goverment interference or aid? I mean... you start out on the thread talking about accountability and responsibility, yet you want government welfare for programs? All hail the nanny state! (where it's convenient)
Michael we are on opposite sides of the fence on this issue. The only difference is I am open to the people I talk to and provide information from both sides. You tend to think you have all the answers so you withold info which goes against your thinking.
I am open to both sides of the issue but I have had the unique experience of actually being in a program. That's one thing you don't have and never could. I don't have all the answers, but I have looked at both sides and come to my own conclusion. Whether information in the future might shift that conclusion, I can't say. I'm not a fortune teller, but I find it unlikely. I also don't withhold information from parents as you allege.
I have met educational consultants who believe, like yourself, that parents should only be given filtered information which will persuade them to have their child placed.
But that's precisely what you did with Marcy. Need we go over that again. You sent her to a few select websites (with a referral code!), attempted to scare her off fornits by implying her identity was not secure, and invited her to an "open discussion" group which, you've demonstrated is not really that open at all. You also admitted that you do not refer to ISACcorp because they have schools on their watchlist that you refer to.
I encourage parents to do their own research, but I do not refer them to specific sites. Is no me job. It's your job. What you're paid for. I'm not paid at all, and in order for parents to trust me, I can't be sending them to specific commercial (not purely informational) sites. I could be getting paid for such referrals. How would a parent know?
If you want to create a pro-industry site that is purely informational, advertises for no programs, and refers to no ed-cons. I'll refer parents there to see the "other side". Until then, I give them my "anti-sales-pitch" and encourage them to research the other side for themselves (which they, in my experience, have already seen).
There are all sorts of issues besides just that one as to why I don't refer parents to pro-industry sites. There are legal liability issues, for instance, such as under the lanham act, where I could be sued for unfair competition (criticising one school while referring to a competitor or competing service).
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I've just invented a product. It's a secret recepie that only I know. It cures all illnesses. Now I will market it as 97% sucessfull. It's highly addictive and just might kill you, but those who it works for... they swear by it!
Point being that you're reversing the burden of proof. In order to advertise something as working, it actually has to work. Most of the staff at these places are unqualified and most of the "therapy" amounts to cult-derived quackery. Like snake oil, it's some powerful shit... but it doesn't necessarily mean it's helpful. It just means it's popular, which can be for all sorts of reasons, such as an illusion of efficacy.
Do parents ask you about effectiveness? What do you say?
No I am not reversing any proof. Parents ask me about the effectiveness and I give them information on individual schools or programs. I tell them that the key is find a program which is a good match. Which is one of the keys to success. I really believe many of the kids here who had a bad experience were placed in the wrong program. If they had the advantages and information we have today they might not be here complaining about how poorly they did. Many kids have problems with authority and if you match them up with the wrong program it could be trouble for them as an example.
@Guest: Please stop posting those FFS testimonials over and over again. We get the point, but it interferes with dialogue and Kathy is unlikely to care since she refers there and has already implied she sees such testimonial as untruthful and/or biased.
Why not ask her a question instead, such as "how do you dismiss all these allegations of abuse when they all describe similar occurrences?"
I have read most of them. I don’t dismiss them. Most of the problems have been resolved or are being worked on, I could sit and post success stories all day long on fornits but I don’t think it would change your minds either. I think they would be dismissed out of hand.
I don’t represent other educational consultants here with my views, just myself.
There is a football party in the other room. I am being called in, probably to make a dip LOL. I will check back in awhile.
Acutally, human-trafficer, you could not post "sword testimonies" from survivor about how great FFS is all day. As JC said, even the sucessfully brainwashed kids, under questioning assented that FFS tortured kids.
i have noticed you have not taken JC's invitatin to post at CAFETY where people expert on FFS could respond to your BS claims with more knowledge than can we. Why aim more negative attention at Family Foundation School cultic-gulag, right?
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@ Guest can you please stop posting survivor testimony from FFS. Kathy has said she doesn't beleive it, and it interferes with the discussion
There’s no discussion to be had.
This entity doesn’t “understand” the diff between parents asking their kids to help do the dishes and an institution that forces its "patient"-prisoners to do all the maintenance for the institution while being forced to run in place, on pain of beatings, manhandling, peer denunciation, extended imprisonment, isolation, being wrapped in a blanket until one’s eyes “pop out,” and otherwise tortured until they break and concede to forced labor, the same way as prisoners of Thought Reform Prisons or Gulags broke and conceded.
This entity earns money from human trafficking. It deliberately exposes kids to systematic psychological and physical torture with a near identical paradigm to the Thought Reform prisons of Asia.
Do you really think you are going to get to the place where this entity will say, “Oh, hey. Well I have read dozens of accounts of systematic torture at FFS resulting in its innocent victims being physiologically damaged for years if not their entire lives and that don’t bother me. Tony & Betty Argiros are working on their issues, BUT that’s GREAT analogy you just made…Maybe I should change my ways.”
Hey, KathS, what about taking personal responsibility? Why should not Tony and Betty Argriros be in prison, right now, instead of working on their issues?
Tell you what. What's your name? Let's start there. Something tells me you know deep down your behavior is abhorant and don't want it linked ot your name.
Psy, This entity is Who2 here for damage control, or for some weird emotional need for self justification.
Why don’t you do some good and bring up the info on Aspen Education and other places it mentioned instead of serving its perverted desires?
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Its a learned language that is taught here.
That is true, and one reason why I don't use those terms. Even so, what they described when first coming here, regardless of descriptive language used, remains constant.
.
Actually, bitch, youre the one speaking the "learned Language." Your words "intervention" instead of imprisonment, "escort" instead of kidnappers, "school" instead of gulag or internement camp are deliberate constructs of your Synannon forebearers who applied euphanisms to their trade to hide their actuality.
I'm not going to post the defintions of gulag, torture, again. You've made it clear. You are going with your personal defition on these words. You chose to call a man forcefully inserting his penis into child's vagina "class," I chose its English term "rape." I chose represetnational reality and truth over your kafka-esque NIGHTMARE.
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Its a learned language that is taught here.
That is true, and one reason why I don't use those terms. Even so, what they described when first coming here, regardless of descriptive language used, remains constant.
.
Actually, bitch, youre the one speaking the "learned Language." Your words "intervention" instead of imprisonment, "escort" instead of kidnappers, "school" instead of gulag or internement camp are deliberate constructs of your Synannon forebearers who applied euphanisms to their trade to hide their actuality.
True. But when talkign to parents, she has a point. they'll tune out at "kidnapping". Why not, instead of using either "escort" or "kidnapping", say "forcefully taken away to a school in restraints, which can be a terrifying, degrading and humiliating experience for a teen". Let a parent decide what word to put to it.
You can stop using their loaded language, yes, but it doesn't mean you have to invent your own, even if it is more accurate. That being said... it's just my opinion.
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Human traficker: here is the work schedule of Bethal Boys Academy, a WWASP Gulag, a gulag you "referred" M to
WORK
1. Refusal to work is regarded as misconduct.
2. All cadets’ will be assigned to work crews under the supervision of an instructor.[/color]
3. Work will consist of a variety of maintenance, custodial and construction assignments.
1. All cadets’ for specific work crews will depart with the work crew supervisor. They will carry tools,
toolboxes, materials....
5. Work will generally be scheduled Monday through Friday from 0800 hours until sunset.
6. Workers are strictly prohibited from unauthorized contacts with non-Camp personnel while outside thefence. Violation will result in immediate disciplinary action.[/color]
7. Workers must remain at their assigned work site and under the supervision of staff.
Any unscheduled or unauthorized departure or absence from the work site or vehicle will be considered an
escape subject to criminal prosecution.
8. While working around the main complex, no cadet will leave the place of work without authorization
from the work or crew supervisor, nor without a pass properly signed indicating the destination and the
time the cadet left work.
10. All work crew cadets’ are to follow the directions of the drill instructor or maintenance repairman.
12. Each cadet working will carry his share of the job and cannot quit working until the job has been
completed and inspected, unless otherwise authorized.
13. Any cadet on a work crew may be required by the crew supervisor to do any job relating to the general
duties of the work crew.
15. While on a work crew, cadets’ must remain in sight of the work or crew supervisors at all times and
obey all orders.
A. ESCAPE - A person commits an offense if he unlawfully removes himself from official
detention following temporary leave granted for a specific purpose or limited period, or leaves his
work site unauthorized.
B. Permitting or Facilitating Escape — Any person who knowingly causes or facilitates an
escape is committing an offense. If you aid another cadet in any way in an escape, you will be
charged with aiding an escape and conspiracy.
WORKSITE RULES
4. Follow each order given. Your work performance is evaluated daily.
WORKSITE SAFETY
You will be familiar with the operation of all tools you are using and must use safety goggles, gloves, hard hat and ear protection when appropriate. If you should become injured and unable to work, it may become necessary to return you to a correctional institution and assign another cadet in your place.
And when they are not working, they are marching or excersizing. How well and happy they are to "perform" their work and exercize, how "sincerely" they articulate they were saved by wwasp and from now on will be "instictively obedient" will determine "how soon they" are allowed to leave.
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Its a learned language that is taught here.
That is true, and one reason why I don't use those terms. Even so, what they described when first coming here, regardless of descriptive language used, remains constant.
.
Actually, bitch, youre the one speaking the "learned Language." Your words "intervention" instead of imprisonment, "escort" instead of kidnappers, "school" instead of gulag or internement camp are deliberate constructs of your Synannon forebearers who applied euphanisms to their trade to hide their actuality.
True. But when talkign to parents, she has a point. they'll tune out at "kidnapping". Why not, instead of using either "escort" or "kidnapping", say "forcefully taken away to a school in restraints, which can be a terrifying, degrading and humiliating experience for a teen". Let a parent decide what word to put to it.
You can stop using their loaded language, yes, but it doesn't mean you have to invent your own, even if it is more accurate. That being said... it's just my opinion.
PSY, I think perhaps you don't understand what "loaded language" means.
In short, it’s a "language" intentionally designed to confuse about reality. For ex, one cult has its adherents refer to parents as "EvilFleshers." The idea is to install the beleif in adherents their parents are evil, regardless of the actual moral nature of the parent.
This is a tactic to isolate adherents from their familial group thereby increasing emotional dependence on a cult-leader, for the ultimate purpose of his increased control over the adherents’ existence and finances. It is “confusing about reality” in that not all parents are actually evil, and “deceptive” because the greater purpose of the word is not to bring greater understanding to a concept but increased power to a leader.
Secondly, “loaded language” exists where so many “English words” are substituted by alternate cult-speak, that it traps the individual within the cult because it becomes necessary for her to mentally translate cult-speak back into “English” to communicate with non-cult members. Then a cult member is “trapped” within the cult, for the reaons similar to how you’d be “trapped” with english speakers in France: because you can’t talk to anyone else.
Substitute language is also used to mentally confuse a victim because we “think” through language and stealing our “language” steals our thoughts. For ex, WWASP, one of the programs KathyS, the human trafficker “refers” to forces its captives in one of its locales to speak only Spanish. The physiological difficulty, frustration, and inability and subsequent mental anguish us part of the thought reform process.
None of the above is applicable to my use of appropriate terminology, whether or not it is jarring.
Nazis called concentration camps “work camps,”
I am going to call gulags kidnapping and torture “gulags” “kidnappings” and “torture” even if a human trafficker prefers I use the term “escort” “school” and “therapy.” I am going to call concentration camps “concentration camps” even if Nazis prefer I call them “Lollipop Joy Parks.”
Part of the con is getting kids and parents to think of the cultic-gulag experience as participation in a "school." I'm not hurting people by assisting with that con.
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Pam the parent here now....
On another note: Seems I have been labeled a murderer, accused of being Martha and now have been downgraded to thewho status. Thank you very much.
Not by ME you haven't. Welcome to the club of "name calling"! I have been called LOTS of things/names on these forums - rarely do I take it personally. In case you have not noticed, PARENTS are not EXACTLY welcomed here either. However, I am like a bad penny that keeps coming back for more...such as yourself. The personal comments about your life or current profession are just that...comments.
Whether or not you are TheWho is not relevant to me since that occurred before my time on Fornits. From what I have seen so far is that you are an Ed-Con that places kids in programs or school based on the information you find relevant after interviewing the family. I am happy to hear that you have 73 facilities on your DNR list. Maybe a quick email to ISAC would helped get your lists synced? We don't want those other 10 schools lost in the fray!
I guess it would be too much to ask you to list the schools that your company has on their DNR list? If you don't ask, you never know!
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Pam the parent here now....
On another note: Seems I have been labeled a murderer, accused of being Martha and now have been downgraded to thewho status. Thank you very much.
Not by ME you haven't. Welcome to the club of "name calling"! I have been called LOTS of things/names on these forums - rarely do I take it personally. In case you have not noticed, PARENTS are not EXACTLY welcomed here either. However, I am like a bad penny that keeps coming back for more...such as yourself. The personal comments about your life or current profession are just that...comments.
Whether or not you are TheWho is not relevant to me since that occurred before my time on Fornits. From what I have seen so far is that you are an Ed-Con that places kids in programs or school based on the information you find relevant after interviewing the family. I am happy to hear that you have 73 facilities on your DNR list. Maybe a quick email to ISAC would helped get your lists synced? We don't want those other 10 schools lost in the fray!
I guess it would be too much to ask you to list the schools that your company has on their DNR list? If you don't ask, you never know!
hi pam. the only person who call you names here are trolls. You are not comprable to a human traficker in any fashion. Glad to hear she has 73 on her do not refer list? That's a good thing when it refers to Aspen and FFS and others from which you have testimony like the above? Please listen to yourself.
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My response sounds like I am mad, but I am not. Its just the way it came out. Its so hard to express temper or not express it on these boards. I guess that is what those emotion smiles are for.
If it's really that much of a big deal to you, I can call up Shelby Earnshaw and work with her to get FFS on their watchlist. Jon's testimony and another sworn statement corroborating it might be enough to do the trick (I'd have to check with Shelby and see what the deal is with that)
No, not a big deal. But if they maintain a watch list then those places which are not on it would indicate they are safe regardless of their feelings about the industry. Isaccorp agrees with us on this place. If FFS was added then we would disagree on it.
Or into danger. You already admitted that it's impossible for a parent to know if an educational consultant is taking referral fees (kickbacks).
Unless they ask or the agency tells them. Almost every parent that I end up speaking to asks me what is in it for me. Ifyou are in business even if it is non profit the people are getting paid.
Maybe they can get some of the bail out money.
I thought you were opposed to such goverment interference or aid? I mean... you start out on the thread talking about accountability and responsibility, yet you want government welfare for programs? All hail the nanny state! (where it's convenient)
Sorry, I was joking. Seems everyone has their hand out for a piece. I heard the govt is even considering bailing out the porn industry.
But that's precisely what you did with Marcy. Need we go over that again. You sent her to a few select websites (with a referral code!), attempted to scare her off fornits by implying her identity was not secure, and invited her to an "open discussion" group which, you've demonstrated is not really that open at all. You also admitted that you do not refer to ISACcorp because they have schools on their watchlist that you refer to.
I encourage parents to do their own research, but I do not refer them to specific sites. Is no me job. It's your job. What you're paid for. I'm not paid at all, and in order for parents to trust me, I can't be sending them to specific commercial (not purely informational) sites. I could be getting paid for such referrals. How would a parent know?
Sure you can. There are no sites (or very few) which are commercial free, fornits has book commercials and anti program themed items to purchase. Isaccorp has their commercials and items they push. Parents just don’t know, so you are right. Suppose Aspen people hired writers to write anti-wwasp survivor stories on fornits to discredit them or vice versa. How do the parents know if the posters on fornits are not being paid? We don’t. You need to just be fair and give parents information from both sides to help them make an informed decision. I wouldnt worry if they think you are getting paid or not.
If you want to create a pro-industry site that is purely informational, advertises for no programs, and refers to no ed-cons. I'll refer parents there to see the "other side". Until then, I give them my "anti-sales-pitch" and encourage them to research the other side for themselves (which they, in my experience, have already seen).
But you think it is okay that fornits advertises? Do you think that maybe the book lists are filtered to insure an anti program bias before they can be part of fornits ads? Would fornits advertise books like “Second Home: Life in a boarding school” or “Shouting at the sky”? or “Teens in Turmoil”? What you meant to say was “Anti-program-sales pitch” (not “anti-sales-pitch”)
There are all sorts of issues besides just that one as to why I don't refer parents to pro-industry sites. There are legal liability issues, for instance, such as under the lanham act, where I could be sued for unfair competition (criticising one school while referring to a competitor or competing service).
Poppycock, There are no legal problems in referring parents to other web sites for information. Unless you are expecting to get paid for your services. If someone asked you for a nice place to get a cup of coffee (but you were a tea drinker), would you be afraid to recommend a few places for fear of getting sued if they burned themselves or received poor service? Could Starbucks come after you if you omitted them from your top 5 list? I have read here long enough to know that the rules don’t always apply both ways. I am not saying that this is your fault, Michael, it is just the culture that has been developed here.
You jumped on me when I said I didn’t refer parents to isaccorp, but you skirt the idea of being fair yourself and talk in circles when I ask you the same question to you, why? Its okay to say you just want parents to hear the negative side of the industry and keep all the positive aspects hidden because you don’t believe the industry helps people.
I suspect that you sell parents short. In my experience if they believe you are being honest with them and you supply them with honest information then they will make the right decision for their family. Most are smart and can sense when they are being had. There is no need to deceive them or withhold information anyway because this is deceptive and only hurts everyone in the long run.
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Poppycock
This is a word someone only uses if they are trying to sound like someone else. KathyS is theWho.
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Poppycock
This is a word someone only uses if they are trying to sound like someone else. KathyS is theWho.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Oh for fuck's sake! Just stop it right now. Not every boogeyman is The Who.
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I guess it would be too much to ask you to list the schools that your company has on their DNR list? If you don't ask, you never know!
Miss Antsy Pam, I know it wasn’t you and didn’t mean to imply that. I have one of those troll thingies hanging on me. I don’t refer to the places he/she is mentioning. At least they are not on my list. I know that I cannot reveal the names of the schools, but I can tell you the types of things we put schools and programs on the list for
But Just pulling up a few on the screen jogs my memory.
1) Not returning money due parents whose child was removed from a school for medical reasons.
2) Program misled agency. Audit findings: Program therapist was not licensed, nor had a background consistent with what was needed to work with children. There was a doctor who prescribed medications but had no mental health training. Had several law suits pending and was working with an expired out of state license.
12R/Academy
3) Program sued 2 of our parents for breach of contract for pulling children out of school. Children needed immediate medical treatment outside the realm of what the school could provide and advertised as such. We intervened on their behalf and were able to get the school to compensate for their loss and then the school sued us.
4) One place required some unethical practice before we received a commission. I never received the details on this one.
5) Academy. An all girls program insured us that they perform cory checks on all employees, but when we got there they had no records. They had unauthorized males walking freely on the premises and the girls had very minimal privacy. We were given a tour of the facility and living quarters, there was 1 male on our audit team and the person giving the tour entered various dorm rooms (in use) and one shower area (in use) unannounced without knocking. It was clear that the girls were not given time to prepare or dress properly. The person giving the tour seemed annoyed with my questions, didn’t know who the males were in the hallway and suggest we submit any further questions in writing. Their program initially seemed solid but the ones insuring us of this were off site when we got there and we never met them. We never referred to them, this was the initial visit. They did respond with a letter of apology and terminated the person giving the tour. They are not open anymore and we reported all the findings to the authorities.
6BT/School
6) 3 programs engaged in unethical payment structuring.
7)Misc: Several programs had poor post graduation follow-up interviews. 2 students lost a considerable amount of weight which was never documented by the program. One child had 2 teeth removed without the parents consent. One child had stitches in their scalp but no documentation of a doctors visit, but the parents were invoiced $700 for medical procedure and transportation costs. 4 children were forced to eat pork. 1 child had extreme dental decay. 3 children exhibited self inflicted wounds on their legs and or arms. 7 children who were on the wrong medication. 1 child will only sleep in a dirty basement of the house. 1 child with an incarcerated hernia which required immediate hospitalization and surgery. One child suffering from extreme depression and required in-patient evaluation. 3 attempted suicides( under the age of 16). 17 children ran away post graduation. 5 children reported chronic truancy. 12 families experienced divorce with child living with relatives. 47 parents invoiced for damages to dorm rooms and common areas.etc.
All of our information is reported to the local authorities, board of education, DSS or equivalent etc. and various other agencies. We share this information with other referral agencies also. But I don’t think it is something we can legally make public. Most of the info is old, places shut down or problems have been resolved.
We don’t give second chances (or reaudits) to the problem schools unless there has been a total change in management and staff otherwise how can you trust them to do what they say they do, on paper, after we leave. It is very rare to take someone off the list. Our success is heavily based on trust because we cannot be with the child during their stay there and we know we are responsible for the child and their family.
Oh my,after reading all of this again I have some second thoughts about how we do things, although I do support the good work we do, I think we could do things a little differently. I wish we could have prevented more of this from happening instead of reacting to it. I didn’t realize there was so much, makes me think a little I admit, there is more but I don’t want to think about it right now. We have pages and pages of testimonies from kids who are better off because of our placements. Much more than the kids and families I listed above and none of what I listed will reoccur because we don’t send kids to them anymore.
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Poppycock
This is a word someone only uses if they are trying to sound like someone else. KathyS is theWho.
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Oh for fuck's sake! Just stop it right now. Not every boogeyman is The Who.
And after all, does it really fuckin' matter if it is thewho or just some other operative? No, I think not. :birthday:
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And yet, you “refer” to Family Foundation School, Aspen, and wwasp, facilities that abduct, imprison, and MURDER, and about which exist multitudes of sworn testimony describing systematic torture and thought reform.
And yet you purposely hide negative information about these organizations from perspective clients.
Why are you referring to gulags that have been proved by congress and beyond a reasonable doubt to be managed by individuals that abduct, imprison, and torture?
Have you read the 30 sworn testimonies about FFS?
Do you simply dismiss these?
Do you refer your clients to CAFETY to read the sworn statements you supposedly “believe”?
What about the kids victimized before the FFS finishes working out "their problems," which apparently was as recently as 2005?
How long have you been referring to FFS?
You started your repulsive word-vomit with saying people need to take responsibility for their actions.
Why aren't you protesting, demanding that the founders of FFS are jailed? Why don't you demand that Narvin Litchfield et al are jailed? Why instead, do you refer people to their gulags, thereby waltzing on the graves of children they've murdered, assisting them in avoiding responsibility for their actions? Why aren't you doing your part to force these people to take responsibility for their actions by no longer enriching them via the bodies of the innocent?
Why, in fact, since you apparently were referring to wwasp and FFS, don't you take responsibility for YOURSELF and do some sort of pertinence to the children you've harmed, to the children who are now mentally crippled or dead because of YOU and your organization?
Why don't you head over to CAFETY and face John Crawford now, you cowardly, murderer? When will apologize to the child described below, you monster?
""Re: Lone Star Expeditions
by toolate on Yesterday, 07:42
This goes out to the girl who worked at LSE and supposedly met Matthew Meyer. Girl, you have no idea what you are talking about. Matthew suffered over 24 hours, was forced to walk in 115 to 130 heat index after getting lost by the navigator. When he managed to complete the last 200 yards, he collapsed on the ground. Staff member kept telling him to get up, then they through water on him and when they heard him "snoring" he was actually aspirating. But the staff just kept telling him to quit faking it. After 20 minutes, they finally looked at him and realized he was dying.
The night before he was stumbling and mumbling around and said his legs felt numb. Through a radio call, the psychologist on staff said it was an anxiety attack and never went and looked at him.
Also, you idiot, his heart was just fine. It took over a month to get the autopsy report back, so you had no idea what you were talking about. You need to keep your mouth shut until you know the truth.
I know the truth and you can take that to the bank."""
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viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16713&p=209023&hilit=ironwood#p209023 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16713&p=209023&hilit=ironwood#p209023)
Here's some info on one of the places K refferred to^^^
is this where you work Kathy?
http://www.parentteenguide.com/form.htm ... y=resource (http://www.parentteenguide.com/form.html?category=resource)
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To Fornits,
Honestly, to those of you who have decided to talk down to Kathy, you should realize it does no good. You wont be able to change her mind by insinuating that shes stupid or evil, or a troll. All you can do is hope that after all the effort you guys have put into this thread, is that she may (in her own time) realize that she has been viewing the issues in a limited perspective, and let her find her own way. The more you accuse her the more excuses she will be forced to make up to defend her honor and the less she will be able to trust us. She wants to believe she is doing the right thing and as long as you attack her motives she will focus on proving you wrong instead of listening to what we have to say. To those of you who think Psy and I have kissed her ass you fail to see the point, I just don't think there will be any progress in a conversation that consists of back and forth bantering. Try to tell her your opinion on the issues instead of attacking her personally. I have a feeling she is at least open minded to the reasons we feel strongly about this subject but instead of explaining those reasons we have simply assumed shes a bad person because she doesn't know what we know. I know its sometimes hard to be nice, and you don't have to be, but maybe we can strive for a productive conversation instead of an argument.
To Kathy:
I may HIGHLY disagree with your views on the language issue, as I have mentioned before I believe these words like, "torture" and "private prison" are reasonably descriptive words that hold great significance to this subject. However, I do agree that most parents, especially those who are in "desperate" mode and want to place their child are unwilling to be receptive to these words. But I don't think the problem lies with our language, its of the judgments and stigma that those who are advocating the former victims of institutionalized child abuse receive. Our very character has been slandered by the troubled teen industry time and time again, and the same techniques that were used on our parents when we were in the program is still perpetrated through their sources to say we are still "manipulators". Here's the thing, I know your people may not consider our sources credible, as in I have heard you discredit many of the anti program sites, including Fornits but what you must understand is there is a great difference in motive here for the two sides of the issue. For one, we are pissed and rightfully so, You can't tell me you wouldn't be hostile toward a group of people who physically and mentally tormented you in your younger years. Second, we aren't selling anything, we aren't getting paid for our efforts here and we prefer to keep it that way on a matter of moral conscious. Third we don't have lots of money to spend on this effort and most of us are struggling in life and have a hard time devoting the time it would take to build an organization that would be able to project some fancy image of credibility in order to sell the parents our ideals. Right now, all you've got is feedback from those who have been through these experiences and have cause to warn others against it. Why thats not enough for you is just beyond me, but considering the circumstances I think we have done an amazing job. We still have a ways to go, and we are working on better ways to communicate with parents and the general public, but our delivery has very little to do with the fact that what we are saying is TRUE and what we have been through was a HORRIBLE life altering experience and we deserve credit and respect for simply having the courage to stand up and speak and especially because we do this to save people from going through what we did. I don't understand why it's so common for survivors to be insulted and discredited by Pro-programmers and Ed-Cons, because unlike them, we have nothing to gain from this besides peace of mind.
Why is it wrong of us to demand that children's welfare and rights be protected in programs? The only reason someone would be against that idea is if that person stood to loose the money by implementing these ideals where they previously saved money by cutting these corners. I strongly believe that referral companies and accreditation organizations should be taking what we have to say very seriously and should have every reason to call for the same reform. The fact that they don't only signifies the abundance of corruption that is rampant in this industry and that is precisely why we are not selective in our views on "who's responsible" for these crimes against these children. You all are, from the staff member who abused the kid to the Ed-Con agency who referred the family. If none of them are willing to wake up and realize its their responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen again than they will soon be exposed as an accessory to child abuse. I hope for your sake Kathy that by then you have moved on to a career that is more morally fulfilling. The problem is that the only reason these people continue to get away with theses indecent acts against children is because they are able to afford to pay referral agencies, accreditation organizations and most times procure the services of a company that provides a "brainwashing" service for their clients (seminars). These separate agencies help divert any responsibility on the facility or its staff members to actually provide adequate care, when they have such strong marketing they don't feel the need to prove themselves with a quality service, especially when society has created such a demand for them.
Much of the blame falls on the media for perpetrating such a trend to even exist but I still cant fathom how a parent would ever agree to send their child away and agree for some unknown group of people to raise them instead. Why is this even an option? For centuries teens have been crossing the boundaries of their parents control and that's as natural as a morning sunrise. Even knowing that some are worse than others doesnt excuse these parents from their duty to do their best to raise their own children. Part of the problem here is that in this day and age people are willing to buy into any marketing strategy as long it can make their lives easier but there isn't anything about raising kids that is easy, and just because you have enough money to spend on a fancy boarding school doesn't mean its acceptable to skirt that responsibility. These parents aren't desperate, they are stressed because life is hard and having kids is hard and getting a loved one through a tough stage in their life is not easy... and they are looking for a way to make all of that a hell of a lot easier.
Most teens don't need help, very few actually do. Some are probably doomed but very very few actually need any kind of "treatment" especially as teens. Their misbehavior is simply a part of learning the lessons that life will teach us and by locking them up you are only setting that natural process on hold. They may pick up a few tools from the program, like how to fake it till you make it (lol yes, an actual "lesson" taught at casa) but the damage done by simply throwing a wrench in their natural process does far more harm than it would if they were given the proper time and support to mature out of the teenage phase. Those who would benefit from residential treatment deserve a completely different approach in care than the "tough love" programs are able to provide. For instance children with ADD and other personality disorders have special needs in education and learning proper social skills yet these programs are structured to simply punish these children for their nature. The "tough love" program has got their whole process backwards and if there is to be any truly rehabilitating program it must be comprised of a completely different system.
As I have said before, Kathy my problem is not with you specifically but with the industry as a whole, as well a society who would bypass all moral reason to make these practices commonly accepted. My personal opinion is that things CAN be changed, and if those responsible were willing to do the right thing a standard for the future could be set and followed. However the battle we are fighting is convincing those who have the power to stop making excuses and covering up the truth and start committing to providing adequate care, and above all ensure the welfare of the children in their care. Until this is achieved we will have no choice but to oppose the industry as a whole and all of the separate agencies that blindly support the troubled teen industry. Just like it is close to impossible to weed out the good programs from the bad without the money, time and manpower invested in a proper investigation process, it is impossible for me to say that there are any referral agencies that are "good" despite the fact that your firm has made some judgments against a number of programs doesn't mean that I am willing to believe your firm doesn't refer to any programs that abuse kids, I guess the FFS reference proves that you actually do. So all I can recommend is that you suggest an investigation in FFS... so that if there are issues here they can have a shot at figuring them out. And in principal, as an Ed Con it is your job to read the accounts of former students of the programs you refer, and despite the language take their claims seriously before you refer another child to the same "treatment". I actually applaud you for considering this, it is something I assume is rare in your line of work and as sad as that is, I am thankful that someone is willing to at least listen to "our side" of the story for once.
Thank You and Good Night
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To fornits,
You are continuously trolled by the entity known as TheWho. Since you are too gullible to figure this out, you waste your time having a "discussion" with an entity whose only goal is to waste your time and make you frustrated and make long rebuttals while they laugh at you. Your belief that you are going to change the industry by engaging with trolls is laughable.
Thank you and good night.
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I think the words we choose are very important. If you communicate to a parent with : “What the $@#% is wrong with you? Why are you going to have your kid kidnapped and shipped off to some #@%#ing gulag because you lack parenting skills” This places the focus on yourself, not on the message you are trying to convey. They will be thinking “Wow this person is really angry”, “Probably a drug addict just like my kids friends”. You are the last person they will consider taking advice from plus they are not even thinking about escorting their kid because you moved the focus of the conversation from escorts onto yourself. So you changed the subject without knowing it. So they leave with the same impression of escort services as they came in with.
If you said something like “Why would you consider something like this? Did you consider that when your child is woken up in the middle of the night and taken away by strangers it could be the most frightening time of their life and they will know that the person they trust the most in the world is paying for it to be done to them. You may know where they are going, but your child doesnt trust anything you say now, so they will not trust that they will be safe. This could further destroy the relationship and trust between you that is left. Trust and safety is the foundation of every happy family, please consider not destroying that bond.”
This way you don’t have to use escort or kidnapping as Michael had mentioned earlier. If there were more time the shock value of gulag, prisons, holocaust etc. would work because eventually the parents would wonder why you are so angry and start asking questions and maybe realize that the program made you angry or the way their parents acted, but for the few minutes that some parents spend here all they will see and hear is an angry kid, which is the last thing they need because they already have one at home.
Femanon fatal, We see this industry from opposite sides and different experiences but I do see we have a small piece of common ground and agree with you on some level.
From what I have read here and our conversations I have reconsidered and I have decided to submit an “RFR Level 1” on FFS, which is a Request for Review. Level one is considering the status of an entire program. After I submit it I will need to defend my reasoning for submittal. This is the first step to having a program placed onto the “do not refer list”. My boss told me he will not sign it so I am looking for someone to approve it so it can be submitted.
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Integrity has no need of rules.
The need to be right is the sign of a vulgar mind.
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From what I have read here and our conversations I have reconsidered and I have decided to submit an “RFR Level 1” on FFS, which is a Request for Review. Level one is considering the status of an entire program. After I submit it I will need to defend my reasoning for submittal. This is the first step to having a program placed onto the “do not refer list”. My boss told me he will not sign it so I am looking for someone to approve it so it can be submitted.
What does that process entail, once somebody approves it?
Was your boss angry for questioning FFS? For posting here?
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From what I have read here and our conversations I have reconsidered and I have decided to submit an “RFR Level 1” on FFS, which is a Request for Review. Level one is considering the status of an entire program. After I submit it I will need to defend my reasoning for submittal. This is the first step to having a program placed onto the “do not refer list”. My boss told me he will not sign it so I am looking for someone to approve it so it can be submitted.
What does that process entail, once somebody approves it?
Was your boss angry for questioning FFS? For posting here?
My boss is okay, but he is afraid to do anything. His boss doesn’t like me very much because I am always asking questions. They like me to sit quietly during staff meetings and not rock the boat like a good little employee. I think he is afraid of losing his job. This is his 3rd job in 5 years and I can honestly see why. He is a really nice guy but doesn’t know how to manage a group.
Recommending a “new” referral to the list is always welcomed, but removing them will never get you a raise or employee of the month LOL. Once I get it signed, which I did today!! Yeah! It gets submitted into the system and a review date is set and a memo goes out to 10 or 15 people who will attend the meeting. One person will represent corporate who will sit in (and make the final recommendation). My boss’s boss (Mary Ellen) will be looking for any opportunity to distance herself from me if it starts not going well.
Opening an RFR could backfire also. Once this is open then all information positive and negative can be brought up for discussion. If another member issues a point that FFS has raised their commission rate with us this may overshadow any of negative discussion and even lead to FFS being moved up on the list of recommended schools. So you guys might hate me even more after this.
I have a few things which are minor on FFS which was good enough to get the ball rolling but I need to look around and find the latest issue with them. I will check out isaccorp and a few others sites to see what they have But I think what I have is enough to question why we do business with them.
No one knows I am posting here except 2 friends from work. I would probably be fired. Most people I work with know of fornits, management logs in now and then and you guys get brought up in meetings, I probably should pick a new name, maybe Mary Ellen! What the heck.
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If another member issues a point that FFS has raised their commission rate with us this may overshadow any of negative discussion
Now this is quite facinating. How does that work, with the commissions and such. Does the program pay the referring organization or the other way around?
and even lead to FFS being moved up on the list of recommended schools.
So there is a list of programs that are recommended (some higher than others) and the priority on that list is based on comission? Am I understanding this right?
I will check out isaccorp and a few others sites to see what they have But I think what I have is enough to question why we do business with them.
You might also consider contacting Jon Martin, other ex-FFS people, or the Newsweek reporter Jon Martin suggested. If you're trying to make a "case" without ending up with egg on your face, it's best to get as much information as possible.
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Psy, is there some reason why you think "kathy/mary" isn't a troll??? I mean, Kathy could be Sebler's kid brother who is making all this up as it goes, you know.
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I guess it would be too much to ask you to list the schools that your company has on their DNR list? If you don't ask, you never know!
Miss Antsy Pam, I know it wasn’t you and didn’t mean to imply that. I have one of those troll thingies hanging on me. I don’t refer to the places he/she is mentioning. At least they are not on my list. I know that I cannot reveal the names of the schools, but I can tell you the types of things we put schools and programs on the list for
But Just pulling up a few on the screen jogs my memory.
1) Not returning money due parents whose child was removed from a school for medical reasons.
2) Program misled agency. Audit findings: Program therapist was not licensed, nor had a background consistent with what was needed to work with children. There was a doctor who prescribed medications but had no mental health training. Had several law suits pending and was working with an expired out of state license.
12R/Academy
3) Program sued 2 of our parents for breach of contract for pulling children out of school. Children needed immediate medical treatment outside the realm of what the school could provide and advertised as such. We intervened on their behalf and were able to get the school to compensate for their loss and then the school sued us.
4) One place required some unethical practice before we received a commission. I never received the details on this one.
5) Academy. An all girls program insured us that they perform cory checks on all employees, but when we got there they had no records. They had unauthorized males walking freely on the premises and the girls had very minimal privacy. We were given a tour of the facility and living quarters, there was 1 male on our audit team and the person giving the tour entered various dorm rooms (in use) and one shower area (in use) unannounced without knocking. It was clear that the girls were not given time to prepare or dress properly. The person giving the tour seemed annoyed with my questions, didn’t know who the males were in the hallway and suggest we submit any further questions in writing. Their program initially seemed solid but the ones insuring us of this were off site when we got there and we never met them. We never referred to them, this was the initial visit. They did respond with a letter of apology and terminated the person giving the tour. They are not open anymore and we reported all the findings to the authorities.
6BT/School
6) 3 programs engaged in unethical payment structuring.
7)Misc: Several programs had poor post graduation follow-up interviews. 2 students lost a considerable amount of weight which was never documented by the program. One child had 2 teeth removed without the parents consent. One child had stitches in their scalp but no documentation of a doctors visit, but the parents were invoiced $700 for medical procedure and transportation costs. 4 children were forced to eat pork. 1 child had extreme dental decay. 3 children exhibited self inflicted wounds on their legs and or arms. 7 children who were on the wrong medication. 1 child will only sleep in a dirty basement of the house. 1 child with an incarcerated hernia which required immediate hospitalization and surgery. One child suffering from extreme depression and required in-patient evaluation. 3 attempted suicides( under the age of 16). 17 children ran away post graduation. 5 children reported chronic truancy. 12 families experienced divorce with child living with relatives. 47 parents invoiced for damages to dorm rooms and common areas.etc.
All of our information is reported to the local authorities, board of education, DSS or equivalent etc. and various other agencies. We share this information with other referral agencies also. But I don’t think it is something we can legally make public. Most of the info is old, places shut down or problems have been resolved.
We don’t give second chances (or reaudits) to the problem schools unless there has been a total change in management and staff otherwise how can you trust them to do what they say they do, on paper, after we leave. It is very rare to take someone off the list. Our success is heavily based on trust because we cannot be with the child during their stay there and we know we are responsible for the child and their family.
Oh my,after reading all of this again I have some second thoughts about how we do things, although I do support the good work we do, I think we could do things a little differently. I wish we could have prevented more of this from happening instead of reacting to it. I didn’t realize there was so much, makes me think a little I admit, there is more but I don’t want to think about it right now. We have pages and pages of testimonies from kids who are better off because of our placements. Much more than the kids and families I listed above and none of what I listed will reoccur because we don’t send kids to them anymore.
Thank you Kathy for your very detailed reply....it is very much appreciated!