Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: hanzomon4 on October 29, 2007, 01:06:32 AM
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What is the issue from a parents perspective? What part of this issue is most important to you? The abuse, lack of options, misleading advertisement? Do you put much stake in what survivors say about what they witnessed or experienced in programs? What part of the movement to end abuse in programs do you feel advocates are not addressing? What do you feel is a good program or what qualities do you think makes a program good or bad?
I really just want to understand what the issue is for parents in the larger issue of institutionalized child abuse?
And please, please folks don't flame this thread.
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Well as a parent I can honestly say I really dislike this trend that places the blame on the shoulders of us parents!
These places are very deceptive and use all sorts of gimmicks to trick us into sending our children to them.
Further, I believe survivors are terrible examples of advocates. They come across as strung out little junkies who spend 3 hours out of 4 exspousing deranged conspiracy theories.
What really needs to happen, and I'm very grateful to Congressmen George Miller for his action, is the voices of parents need to be heard more and more. We parents have far more credibility than the survivors. Most of these young kids are far to troubled to be of much use. Imagine if some of these shabby young men and women testified in front of congress?
It would have killed every shred of credibility that this movement has! G. Miller was very wise to limit the witness pool to just the three parents that he did. Their testimony was far more powerful and moving that what could come from an ex-junkie.
I can't help but feeling sorry for them and wanting to help them out in every way I possible can. We really do need to do more for these poor young men and women in the way of getting them good job skills and a helping hand up out of their terrible circumstances!
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Well as a parent I can honestly say I really dislike this trend that places the blame on the shoulders of us parents!
These places are very deceptive and use all sorts of gimmicks to trick us into sending our children to them.
Further, I believe survivors are terrible examples of advocates. They come across as strung out little junkies who spend 3 hours out of 4 exspousing deranged conspiracy theories.
What really needs to happen, and I'm very grateful to Congressmen George Miller for his action, is the voices of parents need to be heard more and more. We parents have far more credibility than the survivors. Most of these young kids are far to troubled to be of much use. Imagine if some of these shabby young men and women testified in front of congress?
It would have killed every shred of credibility that this movement has! G. Miller was very wise to limit the witness pool to just the three parents that he did. Their testimony was far more powerful and moving that what could come from an ex-junkie.
I can't help but feeling sorry for them and wanting to help them out in every way I possible can. We really do need to do more for these poor young men and women in the way of getting them good job skills and a helping hand up out of their terrible circumstances!
Ok I want to limit my commentary, but I must say that many survivors are not junkies or kids. Take Ursus, Rachel, Psy, Zen's Daughter(she is a kid), Deborah's son, Lorri Picklemire, Kat, Julia Scheers, Kev, Shelby Earnshaw, Lou Lou Carter, Rebecca Ramirez, and others I can't think of right now for example. They are not Junkies and are very well spoken, not to mention extremely intelligent. You don't think that they know more about what actually goes on in programs then parents? And isn't part of the problem a failure to listen to these kids who have been trying to warn parents for decades about abuse?
I'm sure that kids being locked in dog cages, being forced to eat their own vomit, beatings, and cover ups by powerful political forces sounds out of this world. However all of these things have been proven to be true and not just conspiracy theories.
It's also important to note that it was these kids(many now adults) who not only kept this issue alive but also won the ear of the APA's Astart and Rep.Miller. Of course parents like Cathy Sutton, PBmom, and the Parents at the GAO hearing have been great allies but at every moment they emphasise the need to listen to these shabby kids and consistently affirm their right to speak. And while you may not hold fornits in high regard you can't dismiss the impact of survivor run orgs like ISAC.
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Though I suspect the anon is trolling the post provided does show a prevailing attitude that is amongst a large majority of the parent population in regards to survivors.
I bet if you asked several of the survivors you named they'd tell you that they have dealt with patronizing condescending attitudes of parents before. Bottom line though.. George miller really did fail when he didn't put one single survivor on the stand.
Parents can not speak for the horrors of their children.. they can only be a witness to the recanting of the tragic tales and shouldn't ever be the one to retell them to the public. The pain and suffering experienced by the survivor population is for the survivor population alone to retell.
Not these opportunistic prats who look down their nose at the survivors as if they are a collection of strung out needle jockies, serial killers, and bed wetters.
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What about some of you other parents that post here, what are your thoughts?
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What part of this issue is most important to you? The abuse, lack of options, misleading advertisement? Do you put much stake in what survivors say about what they witnessed or experienced in programs? What part of the movement to end abuse in programs do you feel advocates are not addressing? What do you feel is a good program or what qualities do you think makes a program good or bad?
All of that is important -- abuse, lack of options, deception -- and yes I put a lot of stock in what survivors say they have experienced. Like the old saying 'where there's smoke there's fire' -- there have been way too many kids killed, abused and psychologically harmed for any sensible person to say the complaints are due to a few disgruntled individuals.
Any intelligent parent that has done a little bit of web research should draw the conclusion that there are a lot of con artists in this industry, and that overall, this 'teen help' business is really foul. But that doesn't mean they stop looking for help if they have a child who really needs help and has not been getting it from local resources. It is these well-meaning parents -- the ones who truly want the best for their kids -- who are most easily seduced by an ed con or someone else who comes along promising a 'good program' -- something that promises real therapy, a real education, a healthy environment and some wholesome fun activities. Maybe such programs exist, maybe they don't. But there is no question that thousands of parents with 'troubled teens' are looking for exactly that, after everything else they've tried seems to have gone nowhere.
The part of the movement against institutionalized child abuse that advocates are not addressing nearly enough is the lack of local resources and options. Yes, every city of any size has it's share of psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists, drug abuse counselors, etc. Most parents try several of these before they even think about something as extreme as a residential program. But these local resources are often ineffective in offering much help. Most psychiatrists are all about putting kids on powerful drugs, and many psychologists are too easily bullshitted by kids who are just going through the motions because their parents expect them to 'give therapy a try.
Some kids might need therapy, but every kid needs much more than that -- they need direction, a sense of purpose, a feeling of self-worth, they need healthy relationships with friends and family, they need fun, love, worthwhile things to do with their time, and lots of other things. They need all those same things that we adults need, but some kids seem to have a tough time finding them or even accepting them when they're simply given to them.
It's easy to blame parents for 'not being a parent,' and it's so easy for others to judge when they haven't walked in a parent's shoes. Parenting is the toughest job there is, and what works well for one kid doesn't always work for another -- even in the same family. Programs don't offer solutions, but neither do many other people. We're all out here on our own trying to figure this out step by step. We don't have all the answers and sometimes our kids throw us curve ball after curve ball, to the point where we sometimes feel completely incompetent and helpless to do anything right.
We can't make our kids stop their attempts to destroy their lives, but since we love them we can still express our concerns and try to persuade them to get help and to make better decisions. We sure could use a little bit of support, especially someone or something or someplace in our own communities.
I sometimes laugh at the way 'insanedeadorinjail' is discussed here as if it's complete bullshit. Yes, programs feed on parents' fears and use this as part of the sales process. And the anti-program criticism is valid -- most kids don't die or go insane or end up in jail. But that's little comfort to a parent of a kid who has tried to commit suicide or been to the ER for a drug overdose, or who has a history of mental health problems or who has had multiple run-ins with the law. Or worse, a parent of a kid who has experienced all of the above. Again, programs don't have any answers, but the really sad and frustrating thing is...neither does anybody else.
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Whenever I hear options I get nearly get sick and almost throw up on my cat. Well I had a cat but my gobshite Korean boss made me get rid of him and my only options were to either chuck him into a river in a gunny sack or beg my friend into taking him. Thankfully my friend took the cat.
But back to my point.. Options..
What are options to a kid?
Sounds to me like that stands for a creative way of torturing children in privately funded programmes.
There is only one choice..
Be a fucking parent from the day they are born.
Problem I have with these Options is rarely does the kid ever get a say in the manner.
Sure these options are prolly well intentioned..
But for the most part the end up looking or being no better than the shitholes we honk about day in and day out here on fucknuts.
Parents are screaming for wrap around programmes, special services in the communities, better school systems, and blah blah blah..
WTf happened to parents like actually raising their kids from the day the were crapped out into the doctor/midwife/crackheads hands?
These options really tend to scare me more than what we have now. After all they are just another wrinkle in the age old game of parents handing over the responsibility for the fruits of their loins to a 3rd party care taker.
Here is an option for you.. GROW SOME BALLS!
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Karass, Great post, thank you.
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Well as a parent I can honestly say I really dislike this trend that places the blame on the shoulders of us parents!
These places are very deceptive and use all sorts of gimmicks to trick us into sending our children to them.
Further, I believe survivors are terrible examples of advocates. They come across as strung out little junkies who spend 3 hours out of 4 exspousing deranged conspiracy theories.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Whenever I hear options I get nearly get sick and almost throw up on my cat. Well I had a cat but my gobshite Korean boss made me get rid of him and my only options were to either chuck him into a river in a gunny sack or beg my friend into taking him. Thankfully my friend took the cat.
But back to my point.. Options..
What are options to a kid?
Sounds to me like that stands for a creative way of torturing children in privately funded programmes.
There is only one choice..
Be a fucking parent from the day they are born.
Problem I have with these Options is rarely does the kid ever get a say in the manner.
Sure these options are prolly well intentioned..
But for the most part the end up looking or being no better than the shitholes we honk about day in and day out here on fucknuts.
Parents are screaming for wrap around programmes, special services in the communities, better school systems, and blah blah blah..
WTf happened to parents like actually raising their kids from the day the were crapped out into the doctor/midwife/crackheads hands?
These options really tend to scare me more than what we have now. After all they are just another wrinkle in the age old game of parents handing over the responsibility for the fruits of their loins to a 3rd party care taker.
Here is an option for you.. GROW SOME BALLS!
:tup: ::rocker::
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[/b]
1. A new medication that will take time to see if it works or makes a difference
2. A new approach to see if Johnny will go back to school, stop stealing cars, leaving pills around the house for his 2 year old sister to ingest, hitting his mother, cutting themselves, leaving razors on the floor……
3. Do nothing.
Other options:
1. The child dies.
2. The child goes to jail.
3. Therapeutic boarding schools: The child is removed from their environment (which is toxic) and placed in a therapeutic environment where they learn to get over their problems, attend school, drug free, healthy diet, trained staff, individual therapy..
In short the parents are offered a solution to their childs problem, parents problem or family problem however you want to define it, that they can relate to. Parents love solutions.. they don’t like: Lets try this or lets see how Johnny is doing next year..lets wait and see… because there is little time left.
The problem is which school to choose… there isn’t much time. If parents come onto sites like fornits they hear all schools are bad and they force kids to eat their own vomit and lock them in cages, which even for an uninformed person is viewed as weird and must be coming from people with an agenda or kids who didn’t do well or dropped out. So who do parents turn to next? Education Consultants… Yea!!!!! They listen to our concerns, offer us coffee and maybe stickers for the little ones and they have a solution and a good fit for Johnny… so off to boarding school. The problem is the educational consultants may not necessarily place Johnny’s best interests before their commission.
So who dropped the ball during this process… where can we see improvements made to help Johnny and his parents?
I think the people on fornits have the information, knowledge and skills to help people make a really good and informed decision for their family. If this information could be filtered or organized in a way that parents can relate to, it could eventually help these parents/kids who are being placed outside the home for minor reason like "Pot Smoking" or expose schools which are a bad fit for them or out right abusive instead of telling them the entire industry is corrupt.
...
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TSW, please explain what "be a fucking parent" means and how "grow some balls" is any different than the tough love philosophy they taught you at Three Springs.
Yes, some of us want local services and local support, even if we aren't exactly sure what that means or what it would look like -- because what we have now sucks. Kids get kicked out of school these days for almost nothing. Kids get drugged up by shrinks for having the slightest bit of feelings or anger or frustration. Kids get arrested for doing the same things their parents got away with decades ago. A lot of so-called professionals even recommend residential programs for kids with 'problems' -- meaning kids who don't fit society's definition of normal.
Society has declared war on wayward youth, and sometimes parents could use a little help trying to navigate through the battlefield. Kids today aren't allowed to just grow up and grow out of it the way their parents' generation was allowed to. In addition to being teachers, role models, disciplinarians, care-givers, providers and all the other things a parent needs to be, sometimes one of our most important jobs is to be advocates for our own children -- because nobody else cares about them like we do, and sometimes the system would rather throw them away than lend a hand.
Some kids really do wish things in their lives were better. That doesn't mean they want to be head shrunk until they're convinced they're nuts, and it doesn't mean they want to get sent away. Sometimes it just means they wish things didn't suck so bad, that they were treated with some respect and that they had something better to look forward to -- a future with a little less oppression and a little more tolerance. And sometimes parents can be a lot less oppressive and a lot more tolerant than the big bad world.
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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There is an obvious option that you are leaving out-- and it is the only one that has been *proven* to work in numerous controlled trials.
That is, community-based family therapy using either cognitive-behavioral, functional or multisystemic technique.
Though multisystemic family therapy is currently only available to kids in the justice system, it has been shown in 9 clinical trials to reduce drug use, violence, incarceration and family tensions. This research includes kids with serious antisocial behavior and drug problems-- it's not like the "studies" on residential programs which are uncontrolled and also confounded by the fact that many of the kids sent there actually don't have problems serious enough to warrant treatment in the first place, so unsurprisingly, they do Ok afterwards.
Most kids are *NOT* in a "toxic" environment-- and if they are, they are going to have to learn to deal with being in it sooner or later because that's where they are going to be when they get out. The minority of parents who send their kids to these programs who are abusive (ie, most parents who send their kids are trying to help, not harm, but some are genuinely abusive) are not going to be any less abusive when the kid is finished and he's still going to have that family to deal with at some point.
Institutionalizing people doesn't teach them to live in the real world-- it teaches them to conform to an institution. This is why most addiction treatment now takes place outpatient-- for all but the most serious cases, it's better to deal with temptation right from the start rather than give people an artificial situation which doesn't actually teach them how to deal with the temptation they will face the moment they leave.
And even in those serious cases, unless you are dealing with someone who has been homeless, uneducated and jobless for years, the inpatient portion of treatment should last at most a few months, not years.
What helps troubled families overcome their problems is teaching them how to communicate and support each other rather than to harm each other. This cannot be done by splitting them up.
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The abuse is what's most important to me
I shall feel the sting of HOW Michelle was treated while in the care of others for the rest of my life.
I shall continue to stay focused on the abuse until something is done that will hold this industry accountable for treating children this way.
I REPEAT.............
I could not have DONE TO Michelle what was DONE TO her and walked away a free person. Why is it that in this industry it's acceptable to treat children this way?
Yes, I was lied to. That hurts too. People lie to get what they want, OR to cover up something they've done that is wrong. The lies we were told are not what killed my daughter. It was the "mindset" that was created, nurished, and fed to the people within this industry that killed my daughter.
I too am grateful for the GAO report and what Congressman Miller hopes to accomplish.
BUT, I believe that until this industry is held accountable at the same level a parent would be held accountable, kids will continue to be neglected, abused, molested and die in this industry.
A "mindset" cannot be regulated. It needs to be weeded out. How? By holding the people with the "mindset" accountable for their actions.
Now, if this post ends up at the bottom of this forum, we know it must have hit a nerve.
It's the LEGAL ABUSE that hurts the most.
Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund, Inc.
Catherine Sutton
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PS.............
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MICHELLE!!
Today would have been Michelle's 33rd Birthday. Hard to imagine her as being 33 years old. She will be 16 years old to me until the day I die.
Catherine
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Once again you jump to my defense, but let me get this one. As a survivor, I am a sucessful, happily married mom and gramma, and while my son was a handful during his early to mid teens, I never once considered handing the job of raising my child to someone else. I taught him that actions come with consequences, but that fear had no place in a parent child relationship, and I tough-loved him right through his rebellion. I run two support and healing groups for survivors who have also fought the good fight to overcome the abuse they suffered. I will not candy coat it for you, some survivors only survive in the fact that they still draw air. Some were so horribly abused they will never recover, but most have come out the other side a little wiser, a little tougher, and a lot more outspoken. That seems to be the issue you have a problem with. I know as a parent to give any credibility to survivors you would have to except the guilt, and for some parents this is something they cannot do, but you as a parent, even if you were lied to, were not abused. You were not forced to kneel on pencils in a bathtub for over 8 hours and struck if you so much as tried to reposition your weight, you were not forced to brush you teeth until your gums bled for four days because you dared to ask for a new toothbrush, you were not raped and told that no one would believe you, you were not forced to eat food with bugs in it. So, yes while your trust was betrayed, your child was abused. Survivors who have come through and are willing to tell the story have earned the right, if you don't like it, don't listen, but don't you dare judge. And another thing, don't accuse people of being junkies, that is rude and demoralizing. I was sent to the program I was in, not for drug use, but because my father was a pedophile and my mom couldn't dump me back on him.
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Well as a parent I can honestly say I really dislike this trend that places the blame on the shoulders of us parents!
These places are very deceptive and use all sorts of gimmicks to trick us into sending our children to them.
Further, I believe survivors are terrible examples of advocates. They come across as strung out little junkies who spend 3 hours out of 4 exspousing deranged conspiracy theories.
What really needs to happen, and I'm very grateful to Congressmen George Miller for his action, is the voices of parents need to be heard more and more. We parents have far more credibility than the survivors. Most of these young kids are far to troubled to be of much use. Imagine if some of these shabby young men and women testified in front of congress?
It would have killed every shred of credibility that this movement has! G. Miller was very wise to limit the witness pool to just the three parents that he did. Their testimony was far more powerful and moving that what could come from an ex-junkie.
I can't help but feeling sorry for them and wanting to help them out in every way I possible can. We really do need to do more for these poor young men and women in the way of getting them good job skills and a helping hand up out of their terrible circumstances!
I disagree with this "parent" who is posting - because most parents do accept the "blame" for placing their child in a program. Parents, like those testifying before the GAO Hearing, can explain WHY many of us were mislead by fraudulent advertising, lies, and false promises - but most parents accept their reponsibilities.
I strongly disagree this this "parent's" notion that our children who are survivors of abusive facilities would not be good witnesses before the next GAO Hearing - and would be viewed as "ex-junkies....or shabby young men or women." This parent does not speak for me, or my daughter. Most children enrolled in a program were not shabby drug addicts or "junkies."
Hanzomon4 may ask posters, "don't flame this thread," but the recent posts advising suvivors to take up guns and kill their parents, is disturbing.
Some of our children were part of the decision-making process of enrolliing in their so-called "boarding schools" or wilderness programs. My daughter participated in the decision to go to "boarding school," and Michelle Sutton participated in the decision to attend a wilderness program. My family got lucky - and my abused daughter returned home. And I, along with my husband, do accept the responsibilty for enrolling my daughter at Whitmore Academy - and for leaving her there for almost 2 months.
My point is: I don't read posts where parents advise children/survisors to take up guns and kill the staff who abused them.
We parents may appear naive and stupid - but we depend on the court system and legal system for what little justice we can receive.
We can hope that the GAO Hearings will generate some legislation and regulations that will ensure the future safety of children.
Some posters downgrade the attempts of politicians like Congressman Miller; and any type of legislature to address the issues in this industry. YET, they call for a "CHILDREN'S BILL OF RIGHTS." How do they propose a Bill of Rights can be passed, if not through politicians and Congress?
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Well as a parent I can honestly say I really dislike this trend that places the blame on the shoulders of us parents!
These places are very deceptive and use all sorts of gimmicks to trick us into sending our children to them.
Further, I believe survivors are terrible examples of advocates. They come across as strung out little junkies who spend 3 hours out of 4 exspousing deranged conspiracy theories.
What really needs to happen, and I'm very grateful to Congressmen George Miller for his action, is the voices of parents need to be heard more and more. We parents have far more credibility than the survivors. Most of these young kids are far to troubled to be of much use. Imagine if some of these shabby young men and women testified in front of congress?
It would have killed every shred of credibility that this movement has! G. Miller was very wise to limit the witness pool to just the three parents that he did. Their testimony was far more powerful and moving that what could come from an ex-junkie.
I can't help but feeling sorry for them and wanting to help them out in every way I possible can. We really do need to do more for these poor young men and women in the way of getting them good job skills and a helping hand up out of their terrible circumstances!
I like how you say everyone who was in a program was a "Junkie", right after bitching about blame being put on the shoulders of parents.
BUT you do raise a important issue. Nobody who has kids apparently wants to take responsibility for the problems their kids face, even if it is the fault of the parent.
So I guess that means anything done constructively would have to involve ass-kissing and sugarcoating for the likes of you. Which immediately makes me not good P.R. because I wouldn't kiss ass or sugarcoat things for someone who stupidly signed off, let escorts come and then didn't try to contact their children for months on end.
:roll:
And no not all survivors were "junkies" or used drugs AT ALL! If you've lurked here very long you would know that. But yes, people who were hurt very severely and can't even communicate well would be pretty bad P.R. unless someone had the skills to explain "Well see this is what happens when their idea of therapy is forced on someone".
Anyway, accept the fact that as the parent you ARE responsible, and any parent who signed off on a program is at fault and to blame, and that not everyone who was in a program (if not most....) were never drug users or abusers for that matter.
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Once again you jump to my defense, but let me get this one. As a survivor, I am a sucessful, happily married mom and gramma, and while my son was a handful during his early to mid teens, I never once considered handing the job of raising my child to someone else. I taught him that actions come with consequences, but that fear had no place in a parent child relationship, and I tough-loved him right through his rebellion. I run two support and healing groups for survivors who have also fought the good fight to overcome the abuse they suffered. I will not candy coat it for you, some survivors only survive in the fact that they still draw air. Some were so horribly abused they will never recover, but most have come out the other side a little wiser, a little tougher, and a lot more outspoken. That seems to be the issue you have a problem with. I know as a parent to give any credibility to survivors you would have to except the guilt, and for some parents this is something they cannot do, but you as a parent, even if you were lied to, were not abused. You were not forced to kneel on pencils in a bathtub for over 8 hours and struck if you so much as tried to reposition your weight, you were not forced to brush you teeth until your gums bled for four days because you dared to ask for a new toothbrush, you were not raped and told that no one would believe you, you were not forced to eat food with bugs in it. So, yes while your trust was betrayed, your child was abused. Survivors who have come through and are willing to tell the story have earned the right, if you don't like it, don't listen, but don't you dare judge. And another thing, don't accuse people of being junkies, that is rude and demoralizing. I was sent to the program I was in, not for drug use, but because my father was a pedophile and my mom couldn't dump me back on him.
I am SO SICK of people assuming that if you just teach your kid about consequences, and love them enough, they will get through adolescence OK. It's just not so. There are kids who have LEARNING DISABILITIES OR BRAIN CHEMICAL IMBALANCES, OR AUTISM, ETC, AND HAVE PROBLEMS UNRELATED TO PARENTING. jeez people, do some research. My child did NOT end up in RTC because I wanted someone else to parent him, or because I was a bad parent, or because I didn't draw the line with him, or because I had some sick ideas about punishing him. He ended up in RTC after a psych hospitalization at the recommnedation of a whole team of doctors, and I suspect many kids follow the same route. I was not going to abondon him there, he was there for 6 - 8 months for observation and intervention. It was partly up to him to decide if he wanted to use the skills he had learned to start following the rules at home. This "Blame the Parents" for not being good parents thing is just so juvenile. RTC's today are different than 20 years ago. Are some of them abusive? No doubt. They also have medical staff, they have clinical teams, they market themselves as step down options to lock down psych wards. My son spent a month on a locked psych unit. RTC was almost identical, except he could leave if he really wanted to. Now, whether or not these places are doing the job they are selling, is a whole nother story. But just for a moment, let's assume that there are parents out there who want to do the right thing, perhaps they got conned, perhaps they didn't do enough research. The bottom line, is most of them had the best intentions to help their kids, not cause them more harm. Many of us have been horribly abused by own kids in an effort to keep them in the family unit, and have caused possibly irreparable harm to our other children by allowing it to continue for so long.
I have listened to survivors here on fornits. I learned some things. But what I am not going to do is put any blame on myself for being a bad parent. So Ms. Survivor, while you are asking people not to judge you as a survivor, don't you dare judge parents either, and turn this into a totally simplistic issue of people just not raising their kids right. Shame on you, if you are a parent, you should know better. Parents that come here trying to learn something get called a LOT worse than junkies. You can't have it just one way.
Try focusing on the deception in the program marketing, and the ridiculous lack of community resources, stop pitting survivors against parents, you might actually get something accomplished. This blame thing is just so dumb.
PB Mom.
I stopped logging in due to all the BS with my user account getting logged out and my PW not working.
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I've got your family unit right here.
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I'm a parent. In my experience the biggest problem in the "help" industry which includes psychiatrists and psychologists, not just RTCs is that very few so-called "professionals" have the balls to examine and point out the problems in the entire family situation. Almost all parents lack the courage to take a hard, honest look into how their behavior and attitudes have helped to get the entire family to where they are. Many parents seem to be much more psychologically fragile then their "troubled" kids. They cannot really take close examination or anything smacking of criticism. The so-called "professionals" cater to those who control the purse strings. No one becomes a "troubled teen" overnight; it is a from birth process. Most parents don't realize that they cannot really control kids; they can and do influence them, in good and bad ways. Good influence starts in childhood and begins with trust. There seems to be two major parenting modes with thousands of variations and they are: 1) I'm the parent, the boss and you better do what I say or else. Do as I say, not as I do. 2) I'm the parent and my desire is to guide, protect and honor your humanity. I will live my life as an example you can trust.
How can we hold kids "accountable" if we don't hold ourselves accountable? I know this doesn't help once people find themselves at the mercy of the industry and are at a loss. Parental guilt can be really corrosive as well, to everyone; a guilty parent sends the message that since they are guilty of screwing up as parents then it follows that the result, their child, is really screwed up. And parents who feel really guilty tend to make decsions based more on a need to assuage the guilt feelings which can blind them to what the real need is.
What has helped me with my own kids whose behavior at times would certainly be viewed by society as malignant is being honest with myself; painful retrospection, accountibility for my own errors, a genuine and avid interest in LISTENING to how whatever I have done has affected them and working to develop a real friendship with them. Listening instead of lecturing, being there for them no matter what, being on their side no matter, has enabled a real bond of trust to develop. And I love my kids, have always worked hard, done the very best I could always with the best of intentions and still made mistakes. Such is life.
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The abuse is what's most important to me
I shall feel the sting of HOW Michelle was treated while in the care of others for the rest of my life.
I shall continue to stay focused on the abuse until something is done that will hold this industry accountable for treating children this way.
I REPEAT.............
I could not have DONE TO Michelle what was DONE TO her and walked away a free person. Why is it that in this industry it's acceptable to treat children this way?
Yes, I was lied to. That hurts too. People lie to get what they want, OR to cover up something they've done that is wrong. The lies we were told are not what killed my daughter. It was the "mindset" that was created, nurished, and fed to the people within this industry that killed my daughter.
I too am grateful for the GAO report and what Congressman Miller hopes to accomplish.
BUT, I believe that until this industry is held accountable at the same level a parent would be held accountable, kids will continue to be neglected, abused, molested and die in this industry.
A "mindset" cannot be regulated. It needs to be weeded out. How? By holding the people with the "mindset" accountable for their actions.
Now, if this post ends up at the bottom of this forum, we know it must have hit a nerve.
It's the LEGAL ABUSE that hurts the most.
Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund, Inc.
Catherine Sutton
I think Catherine said it best when she said "it's the LEGAL ABUSUE that hurts the most"
As a survivor and a parent it is a double edge sword we now have to worry about CPS taking our Children away and placing them.
It's not only for the rich kids anymore.
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My response was not to parents like you, or Deb, or anyone else that is fighting to stop abuse in the system, it was written for parents like mine, and the parent that said that survivors are a bunch of junkies, I need to get better about putting disclaimers in my replies, I am offending the wrong people. I do understand there are a lot of parents out there with a lot to deal with, but I don't believe that programs are helping those very people who need help the worst. I was not trying to be judgemental, I was trying to explain that many of us are just normal people. Once again, I apologize if you felt that was directed at you in any way. I just get really sick of the blame the victim thing. And my child was ADHD and did have some depression issues, but with a lot of work, we got through it, and he turned out to be a really great kid. I won't ever say it was easy, but we made it. Feel free to PM me any time you feel I am out of line, or reply as you did, I will be happy to clarify.
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This parent summed it up best:
"My child did NOT end up in RTC because I wanted someone else to parent him, or because I was a bad parent, or because I didn't draw the line with him, or because I had some sick ideas about punishing him. He ended up in RTC after a psych hospitalization at the recommnedation of a whole team of doctors, and I suspect many kids follow the same route."
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What a scumbag you are, TheWho...
Y'know your username really should be changed, as you have defiled the name of a great band long enough...
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What a scumbag you are, TheWho...
Y'know your username really should be changed, as you have defiled the name of a great band long enough...
He should change it from the Who to the Screw
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[/b]
1. A new medication that will take time to see if it works or makes a difference
2. A new approach to see if Johnny will go back to school, stop stealing cars, leaving pills around the house for his 2 year old sister to ingest, hitting his mother, cutting themselves, leaving razors on the floor……
3. Do nothing.
Other options:
1. The child dies.
2. The child goes to jail.
3. Therapeutic boarding schools: The child is removed from their environment (which is toxic) and placed in a therapeutic environment where they learn to get over their problems, attend school, drug free, healthy diet, trained staff, individual therapy..
In short the parents are offered a solution to their childs problem, parents problem or family problem however you want to define it, that they can relate to. Parents love solutions.. they don’t like: Lets try this or lets see how Johnny is doing next year..lets wait and see… because there is little time left.
The problem is which school to choose… there isn’t much time. If parents come onto sites like fornits they hear all schools are bad and they force kids to eat their own vomit and lock them in cages, which even for an uninformed person is viewed as weird and must be coming from people with an agenda or kids who didn’t do well or dropped out. So who do parents turn to next? Education Consultants… Yea!!!!! They listen to our concerns, offer us coffee and maybe stickers for the little ones and they have a solution and a good fit for Johnny… so off to boarding school. The problem is the educational consultants may not necessarily place Johnny’s best interests before their commission.
So who dropped the ball during this process… where can we see improvements made to help Johnny and his parents?
I think the people on fornits have the information, knowledge and skills to help people make a really good and informed decision for their family. If this information could be filtered or organized in a way that parents can relate to, it could eventually help these parents/kids who are being placed outside the home for minor reason like "Pot Smoking" or expose schools which are a bad fit for them or out right abusive instead of telling them the entire industry is corrupt.
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That post is the biggest load of bullshit I have EVER read.
reposting and bumping so more people can laugh at it :rofl:
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Thanks for your contribution, Niles, its good to see you are trying out words. The next step might be to stop bashing what others write and contribute an opinion of your own. Maybe start focusing on helping out some kids/parents instead of trolling.
Give it a try.
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Thanks for your contribution, Niles, its good to see you are trying out words. The next step might be to stop bashing what others write and contribute an opinion of your own. Maybe start focusing on helping out some kids/parents instead of trolling.
Give it a try.
You're new here aren't you?
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To respond to a point that was brought on a previous post:
I think it was a wise and intentional choice for George Miller to have parents of kids who died testify. I think they would have the larger impact and carry a direct and united message to the hearing. What can be worse than death? What more could a person who was abused by a boot camp contribute? Parents (older people) in general hold more credibility in hearings of this type then do younger people. (look at the ages of the men and women on the panel)
If they had a person who went thru a boot camp testifying and he was wearing a nice new suit and seemed to be doing well, Phd from an Ivy league school, it may not have the same impact if he talked about how he was forced to carry boulders around or eat crappy food or sleep without a blanket etc. The panel may all be thinking “Wow, look how well this guy turned out, I wonder how bad off this kid was before he went in….. the place seems to have worked for him… don’t agree with the treatment but it seems effective.
Or if they brought in a person who was angry and outraged, Green hair, 4-5 lbs of piercings and screaming 4 letter words the entire time, I don’t think the panel would be focusing too much on what they were saying.
Miller was wise, in my opinion… Death beats out abuse any day (if you want to get peoples attention), besides the GAO guy added that he had thousands of reports of abuse, so what would have been gained by bringing in random people.
As an added Note: The parents who testified, although I don’t know them, didn’t strike me as the type to dump their kids off because they needed a break from parenting and flew off to Hawaii. They appeared to be engaged with their children thru the entire process.
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Go over to Cafety and read the survivors testimonials.
Second, POWS's have testified before Congress. These kids are no different.
Personally what disappointed me is the quality of the media reports following the hearing. As expected, they focused on the parents who testified, not really cutting into the meat on the bone. Here we are, 19 days later and the media dropped this issue like a hot potato.
Bill Boyles was supposed to be on Geraldo with Maia Szalavitz. They got cut to make room for a story about Anna Nicole Smith.
What does that tell ya? Abused kids isn't headline news.
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Well Who I'm glad that most parents disagree with you. Good discussion folks, please continue.
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Well Who I'm glad that most parents disagree with you. Good discussion folks, please continue.
You mention in your Opening Post that you didnt want any flaming and we all respected that and then you take pot shots at parents who responded. Why would you want to do that? I didnt see where most parents addressed my posts let alone disagreed with me.
Try to take a more mature approach, this is a good discussion and I think many parents (as well as kids) could benefit.
...
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Go over to Cafety and read the survivors testimonials.
Second, POWS's have testified before Congress. These kids are no different.
Personally what disappointed me is the quality of the media reports following the hearing. As expected, they focused on the parents who testified, not really cutting into the meat on the bone. Here we are, 19 days later and the media dropped this issue like a hot potato.
Bill Boyles was supposed to be on Geraldo with Maia Szalavitz. They got cut to make room for a story about Anna Nicole Smith.
What does that tell ya? Abused kids isn't headline news.
I agree and I dont want to take away from peoples testimonies. I remember POW's testifying and that worked really well (for them). They were fighting for our country and they were supposed to look that way, its what we expected, we saw them on TV all the time.
But I also remember when hippies would present themselves and all everyone saw was the hair, beads, clothing... they were different, looked different and thats what the older people focused on (not what they had to say).
I had a really good conversation with one of my fathers collages when I was in college (showing off my new found knowledge) and after I was done explaining something to him (or my point of view) he said to me "You should cut your hair, why do you have to embarrass your father like that you seem like a smart boy". The guy didnt hear anything I said, he was focused on my appearance.
So you see George Miller knew his audience and was trying to get as much attention and buy in as he could.....to get some momentum going, some outrage maybe… he didn’t intend to slight the kids who were abused by not having them there, he just thought it could be counterproductive. I would have been pissed too, but that’s the way it works.
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The who does not want to hear it out of any survivor, in order for that to happen he would have to admit that they suffered abuse in one of the centers that he swares don't abuse kids. You cant hide it when they screw up and kill a kid, so he figures you might as well let the parents speak, but abused survivors, no way. He is right though dead is worse than abused. I agree with that , but here is the fact dead is abused to the nth degree, and every child who is abused in one of these programs is a possible death. It only takes the out of control adult being just a little too out of control and what would have been a beating is now a funeral. Or they flat out torture a kid until he/she takes their own life. Then there is another set of parents grieving for their lost child. When does it stop Who? When is enough going to be enough? How many kids have to die before the industry admits there is a problem? Or are you going to use the same old tired line about most programs being safe? That is a joke. I am just glad the government is paying a little more attention, and maybe the next time a kid is killed someone will be charged and go to prison for it instead of it getting brushed under the rug again.
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Mr. The Who,
I am a parent, who has a child who was abused in a program - Whitmore Academy; and I have no hard feelings about the people Congressman Miller chose to speak at the GAO Hearing.
BUT, I do resent your assumption that survivors, including my daughter, would not be "presentable" as a spokesperson before Miller's hearing; or any other government body.
I also resent your assumption that the abuses that suvivors, including my daughter, suffered at the programs they were enrolled in were simply "carrying boulders, eating crappy food, or sleeping without a blanket." You have no idea what abuses my daughter suffered - and frankly, it's none of your business. BUT, you do not speak for me, as a parent; and you show your absolute ignorance, and total lack of compassion for victims of program abuse when you post your self-serving statements.
You invite posters to "flame at you" as you wish to call it. But, I will not allow you to miminize my daughter's abuse; or for you to compare her to a "hippy."
You owe every abuse victim, survivor;and parent on this forum an apology.
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We should just ban him so he doesn't disrupt anything anymore!
He's program industry PR and spin doctoring, we KNOW he is, but a new comer could get tricked by his dumb shit because he's a very good misdirector in discussions and arguments, and a good manipulator of words and the facts.
To a trained observer (or just a well informed one) he's a prime example of what we talk about with the lies from the industry, but to everyone else he's what he wants to look like.
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Mr. The Who,
I am a parent, who has a child who was abused in a program - Whitmore Academy; and I have no hard feelings about the people Congressman Miller chose to speak at the GAO Hearing.
BUT, I do resent your assumption that survivors, including my daughter, would not be "presentable" as a spokesperson before Miller's hearing; or any other government body.
I also resent your assumption that the abuses that suvivors, including my daughter, suffered at the programs they were enrolled in were simply "carrying boulders, eating crappy food, or sleeping without a blanket." You have no idea what abuses my daughter suffered - and frankly, it's none of your business. BUT, you do not speak for me, as a parent; and you show your absolute ignorance, and total lack of compassion for victims of program abuse when you post your self-serving statements.
You invite posters to "flame at you" as you wish to call it. But, I will not allow you to miminize my daughter's abuse; or for you to compare her to a "hippy."
You owe every abuse victim, survivor;and parent on this forum an apology.
Who do you think you are? You dont know me at all nor my daughter and what she went thru either. I dont speak for you and you dont speak for me. I wasnt talking about your daughter and I didnt say she wouldnt be presentable. I didn’t say anyone wouldn’t be presentable (by my views). I believe I said: “ I don’t think they (the panel) would see them as presentableâ€
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Who, you're a joke.
I'll let people use the "Search" button or talk to me to find out what I've done for themselves.
I'll let Joyce deal with you, she'd do better than I. I'd not want to be on the receiving side of her scorned.
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LOL, I'm not flaming you... Just glad that most parents, the GAO, and Rep.Miller don't share your view of survivors.
Also if you feel offended by my post please do start a thread about it in the OFFA, K?
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Did George Miller put any survivors on the stand?
No..
Will George Miller put any survivors on the stand?
Last reports indicate No...
It goes to show the level of sincerity from the good offices of George Miller at giving the true victims of this evil empire their day in the spotlight. George Miller in my opinion is playing up the human tradgedy elements of the grieving parents for a few quick sound bites. The man is an unscruplious charlatan whose only contribution will be to pave the way for a few weak regulations that will have no real impact over the long run.
Keep dreaming that this man is in your corner. He didn't even have the stones to put a survivor on the witness list for his hearing. Instead he put 3 parents(who by all means had a right to be there.. no contending that), Dr. Allison Pinto(had no right there), and some retarded monkey from Nutsack(who was perfect for G. Miller's little vote gaining drama).
It is my hope that George Miller shows the dignity to step in front of a moving bus in the near future. That alone will garner all the headlines we need to move this issue further into the mainstream.
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TSW, please explain what "be a fucking parent" means and how "grow some balls" is any different than the tough love philosophy they taught you at Three Springs.
Being a fucking parent means not sending your son to a wilderness programme and then stalling for 7 weeks before removing despite the advice of others.
Any more questions?
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Holy shit I'm not the only one speaking his mind and telling it like it is now! :rofl:
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Mr. The Who,
I never said I was speaking "for you," I was speaking "to you."
I most certainly did not use any profanity when addressing you, either, did I?
If you find it proper to say "screw you" to a woman, when talking to her - that is your choice.
I do not know how I brought any abuse upon you with my mentality.
You will have to identify who the colletive "us" might be that you want me "to get back to." I'm not certain who your friends might be.
I most certainly never attacked your daughter. I was responding to your post - and your post did not include "My daughter and I think......" You were posting and speaking for YOURSELF, and made no reference to your daughter. Therefore, I do not owe your daughter any apology -- because nothing I posted was directed to anyone except YOU.
I've read many of your posts - and I had the impression that your daughter had a wonderful experience at her program. I never had the impression from your posts that she encountered any type of abuse, or any type of unpleasant experiences, at all. If your daughter did experience any type of abuse while enrolled in the program you chose for her, I am sincerely sorry.
I have no problem with hippies; and you are quite welcome to remain one; if that is what you choose - but, I do prefer that you not include my young daughter in your reference as a hippy. That is my choice. Last time I checked, I am entitled to choices.
I also have the same right that you have, and I do not have to listen to your DROLL, either, now do I?
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I've read many of your posts - and I had the impression that your daughter had a wonderful experience at her program. I never had the impression from your posts that she encountered any type of abuse, or any type of unpleasant experiences, at all. If your daughter did experience any type of abuse while enrolled in the program you chose for her, I am sincerely sorry.
The who claims a positive experience for his daughter. The truth of that we will never really know.
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One thing that seems to be overlooked is the fact that in many quarters it is the judiciary, the medical establishment and the church that play a major part in encouraging a tough love approach and the programs that benefit from this. Numerous parents have as somebody mentioned been actively encouraged to send their kids to programs by phsychs. Others have asked the opinion of their friendly family Doctor or local religious minister and been pointed in the direction of programs. Many programs take kids who have been sentenced by judges and some laywers work with ed cons to plea bargain a program.
I have never doubted that some parents who send their kids to programs are unrelenting tyrants. The same sort of people here just treat their kids like shit without needing to spend 60 k. But by the same token there seems to be a large number of people who are being sent in the direction of programs by the social leaders that any reasonable person turns to when they need help. It is the wider philosophy of tough love and zero tolerance and the laws that support it which need changing. While these things exist this industry will thrive
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I've read many of your posts - and I had the impression that your daughter had a wonderful experience at her program. I never had the impression from your posts that she encountered any type of abuse, or any type of unpleasant experiences, at all. If your daughter did experience any type of abuse while enrolled in the program you chose for her, I am sincerely sorry.
The who claims a positive experience for his daughter. The truth of that we will never really know.
Well, we do know what he has previously stated:
1. Daughter was drinking and getting high within hours of returning home
2. Daughter cut TheWho out of her life and stopped speaking to/seeing him immediately upon returning home
Sure, sounds like she had a great, helpful and efficacious stay at ASR. :roll: :cry:
Look, TheWho is a liar with a financial stake in ASR. He doesn't even care that he has to pimp his daughter's story (even though he made up 90% of it) to put a positive spin on ASR. He neglects to mention that above two points caused by his relationship with an abusive program and his forcing his daughter into two years of confinement against her will.
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ALA also ignored a girls suicide attempt, publically humiliated her and thne acted shocked when she threw herself in front of a moving vehicle. The same ALA "peer group" had one boy expelled for stealing drugs (cured him!!) and another boy die in his first year of university from alcohol poisoning. As a sad post script the dead boy's father was so heartbroken that in spite of being a millionaire ex athlete he went nuts and robbed a jewelley store.
The big sucess story of that peer group Bianca was set there because her father feared she would end up pregnant. She got pregnant in her first year of uni. All of these kids came from a "peer group" so lauded within the school they were referred to as the Gurus. i ronically the who recommended I read this book a yr ago because he thought it would make me see that ALA is one f the good ones. When I first finished it i assumed that he was veing ironic
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i ronically the who recommended I read this book a yr ago because he thought it would make me see that ALA is one f the good ones. When I first finished it i assumed that he was veing ironic
Did you mean ASR?
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TSW Wrote:
Did George Miller put any survivors on the stand?
No..
Will George Miller put any survivors on the stand?
Last reports indicate No...
It goes to show the level of sincerity from the good offices of George Miller at giving the true victims of this evil empire their day in the spotlight. George Miller in my opinion is playing up the human tradgedy elements of the grieving parents for a few quick sound bites. The man is an unscruplious charlatan whose only contribution will be to pave the way for a few weak regulations that will have no real impact over the long run.
Miller made a good choice, I dont think it is a reflection on his sincerity. What end result would you expect by putting kids who attended these programs on the stand? I think showing that these boot camps are causing childrens deaths should be enough to raise the awareness.
It would have been risky, in my opinion, to have the kids versus the parents.
@Joyce: you brought your daughter up I didnt. I never referred to her. If you continue to have an issue with this PM me if you like
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One thing that seems to be overlooked is the fact that in many quarters it is the judiciary, the medical establishment and the church that play a major part in encouraging a tough love approach and the programs that benefit from this. Numerous parents have as somebody mentioned been actively encouraged to send their kids to programs by phsychs. Others have asked the opinion of their friendly family Doctor or local religious minister and been pointed in the direction of programs. Many programs take kids who have been sentenced by judges and some laywers work with ed cons to plea bargain a program.
I have never doubted that some parents who send their kids to programs are unrelenting tyrants. The same sort of people here just treat their kids like shit without needing to spend 60 k. But by the same token there seems to be a large number of people who are being sent in the direction of programs by the social leaders that any reasonable person turns to when they need help. It is the wider philosophy of tough love and zero tolerance and the laws that support it which need changing. While these things exist this industry will thrive
Oz, Although, I agree with the majority of what you say, but I am not too sure the philosophy of tough love and zero tolerance is what is driving the industry. The vast majority of the parents that I have spoken with were not tough on their children or had zero tolerance in their households. Mostly it was just the opposite. Many families opt for the tough love, zero tolerance when everything else seems to have failed and finally turn to a school or program which is highly structured and has a zero tolerance policy.
Allowing kids to have too much freedom, lack of supervision, lack of structure etc. at a very young age and then introducing zero tolerance suddenly when the child becomes a teenager just doesn’t work well at home. The root cause of why these institutions are thriving lies somewhere in the way society has headed in the last few decades with both parents out of the household, the public school system going to hell and the media which the kids are exposed to far too much.
...
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i ronically the who recommended I read this book a yr ago because he thought it would make me see that ALA is one f the good ones. When I first finished it i assumed that he was veing ironic
Did you mean ASR?
Yeah, that's ASR
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I've read many of your posts - and I had the impression that your daughter had a wonderful experience at her program. I never had the impression from your posts that she encountered any type of abuse, or any type of unpleasant experiences, at all. If your daughter did experience any type of abuse while enrolled in the program you chose for her, I am sincerely sorry.
The who claims a positive experience for his daughter. The truth of that we will never really know.
Well, we do know what he has previously stated:
1. Daughter was drinking and getting high within hours of returning home
2. Daughter cut TheWho out of her life and stopped speaking to/seeing him immediately upon returning home
Sure, sounds like she had a great, helpful and efficacious stay at ASR. :roll: :cry:
Look, TheWho is a liar with a financial stake in ASR. He doesn't even care that he has to pimp his daughter's story (even though he made up 90% of it) to put a positive spin on ASR. He neglects to mention that above two points caused by his relationship with an abusive program and his forcing his daughter into two years of confinement against her will.
Let's not lose sight of exactly what TheWho is. He experienced utter failure with his daughter at ASR, yet he still continues to try to defend the industry as a whole against any and all legitimate claims of abuse or neglect.
It's the $$$$$$, people.
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I'm a parent. In my experience the biggest problem in the "help" industry which includes psychiatrists and psychologists, not just RTCs is that very few so-called "professionals" have the balls to examine and point out the problems in the entire family situation. Almost all parents lack the courage to take a hard, honest look into how their behavior and attitudes have helped to get the entire family to where they are. Many parents seem to be much more psychologically fragile then their "troubled" kids. They cannot really take close examination or anything smacking of criticism. The so-called "professionals" cater to those who control the purse strings. No one becomes a "troubled teen" overnight; it is a from birth process. Most parents don't realize that they cannot really control kids; they can and do influence them, in good and bad ways. Good influence starts in childhood and begins with trust. There seems to be two major parenting modes with thousands of variations and they are: 1) I'm the parent, the boss and you better do what I say or else. Do as I say, not as I do. 2) I'm the parent and my desire is to guide, protect and honor your humanity. I will live my life as an example you can trust.
How can we hold kids "accountable" if we don't hold ourselves accountable? I know this doesn't help once people find themselves at the mercy of the industry and are at a loss. Parental guilt can be really corrosive as well, to everyone; a guilty parent sends the message that since they are guilty of screwing up as parents then it follows that the result, their child, is really screwed up. And parents who feel really guilty tend to make decsions based more on a need to assuage the guilt feelings which can blind them to what the real need is.
What has helped me with my own kids whose behavior at times would certainly be viewed by society as malignant is being honest with myself; painful retrospection, accountibility for my own errors, a genuine and avid interest in LISTENING to how whatever I have done has affected them and working to develop a real friendship with them. Listening instead of lecturing, being there for them no matter what, being on their side no matter, has enabled a real bond of trust to develop. And I love my kids, have always worked hard, done the very best I could always with the best of intentions and still made mistakes. Such is life.
:tup: :tup:
The abuse is what's most important to me
I shall feel the sting of HOW Michelle was treated while in the care of others for the rest of my life.
I shall continue to stay focused on the abuse until something is done that will hold this industry accountable for treating children this way.
I REPEAT.............
I could not have DONE TO Michelle what was DONE TO her and walked away a free person. Why is it that in this industry it's acceptable to treat children this way?
Yes, I was lied to. That hurts too. People lie to get what they want, OR to cover up something they've done that is wrong. The lies we were told are not what killed my daughter. It was the "mindset" that was created, nurished, and fed to the people within this industry that killed my daughter.
I too am grateful for the GAO report and what Congressman Miller hopes to accomplish.
BUT, I believe that until this industry is held accountable at the same level a parent would be held accountable, kids will continue to be neglected, abused, molested and die in this industry.
A "mindset" cannot be regulated. It needs to be weeded out. How? By holding the people with the "mindset" accountable for their actions.
Now, if this post ends up at the bottom of this forum, we know it must have hit a nerve.
It's the LEGAL ABUSE that hurts the most.
Michelle Sutton Memorial Fund, Inc.
Catherine Sutton
:tup: :tup:
Once again you jump to my defense, but let me get this one. As a survivor, I am a sucessful, happily married mom and gramma, and while my son was a handful during his early to mid teens, I never once considered handing the job of raising my child to someone else. I taught him that actions come with consequences, but that fear had no place in a parent child relationship, and I tough-loved him right through his rebellion. I run two support and healing groups for survivors who have also fought the good fight to overcome the abuse they suffered. I will not candy coat it for you, some survivors only survive in the fact that they still draw air. Some were so horribly abused they will never recover, but most have come out the other side a little wiser, a little tougher, and a lot more outspoken. That seems to be the issue you have a problem with. I know as a parent to give any credibility to survivors you would have to except the guilt, and for some parents this is something they cannot do, but you as a parent, even if you were lied to, were not abused. You were not forced to kneel on pencils in a bathtub for over 8 hours and struck if you so much as tried to reposition your weight, you were not forced to brush you teeth until your gums bled for four days because you dared to ask for a new toothbrush, you were not raped and told that no one would believe you, you were not forced to eat food with bugs in it. So, yes while your trust was betrayed, your child was abused. Survivors who have come through and are willing to tell the story have earned the right, if you don't like it, don't listen, but don't you dare judge. And another thing, don't accuse people of being junkies, that is rude and demoralizing. I was sent to the program I was in, not for drug use, but because my father was a pedophile and my mom couldn't dump me back on him.
:tup: :tup:
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Mr. The Who,
I have absolutely no reason to speak to you by Private Messge.
I don't talk privately to men who use profanity towards me; and say "screw you" to me on public forums; in some attempt to make his point.
You also falsely accused me of being disrespectful towards your daughter, and that I was in someway encouraging posters to abuse you in someway --- and I did no such thing !
Everyone on this forum is aware that I have a daughter - and I never said the "you brought her up." You seem to want to twist any and everything I posted.
I simply said that my daughter, and other survivors, would be "presentable" as a spokespersons before the GAO Hearings - and that they would not be unpresentable-shabby-ex-junkie-hippy-types; who would not be believeable by Congressman Miller's panel.
I also stated that you had no idea of the abuse that my daughter suffered in her program - and in no way did I negate that "rolling boulders, eating crappy food, and sleeping without a blanket" was NON-ABUSIVE.
I never mentioned your daughter; and I never used profanity towards you; and I never invited anyone to abuse you.
You are rude - you use word games- you resort to profanity - and resort to involving your own daughter in an attempt to win a point in any discussion.
It seems to be your position that pushing people- especially women- around is how you win your wordy, little arguments. I have nothing else to say to you, at this time. Go post to someone else who might care about what you have to say!
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Mr. The Who,
I have absolutely no reason to speak to you by Private Messge.
I don't talk privately to men who use profanity towards me; and say "screw you" to me on public forums; in some attempt to make his point.
You also falsely accused me of being disrespectful towards your daughter, and that I was in someway encouraging posters to abuse you in someway --- and I did no such thing !
Everyone on this forum is aware that I have a daughter - and I never said the "you brought her up." You seem to want to twist any and everything I posted.
I simply said that my daughter, and other survivors, would be "presentable" as a spokespersons before the GAO Hearings - and that they would not be unpresentable-shabby-ex-junkie-hippy-types; who would not be believeable by Congressman Miller's panel.
I also stated that you had no idea of the abuse that my daughter suffered in her program - and in no way did I negate that "rolling boulders, eating crappy food, and sleeping without a blanket" was NON-ABUSIVE.
I never mentioned your daughter; and I never used profanity towards you; and I never invited anyone to abuse you.
You are rude - you use word games- you resort to profanity - and resort to involving your own daughter in an attempt to win a point in any discussion.
It seems to be your position that pushing people- especially women- around is how you win your wordy, little arguments. I have nothing else to say to you, at this time. Go post to someone else who might care about what you have to say!
You got that right, sweets. TheWho engages constantly in behaviors for which he degrades others.
He's a program pimp and his daughter is his number one 'ho.
He just conveniently leaves out how her life was shattered, how she turned to alcohol and drugs as soon as she got home and how she cut him out of her life.
That wouldn't sell the program, would it?
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Mr. The Who,
I have absolutely no reason to speak to you by Private Messge.
I don't talk privately to men who use profanity towards me; and say "screw you" to me on public forums; in some attempt to make his point.
You also falsely accused me of being disrespectful towards your daughter, and that I was in someway encouraging posters to abuse you in someway --- and I did no such thing !
Everyone on this forum is aware that I have a daughter - and I never said the "you brought her up." You seem to want to twist any and everything I posted.
I simply said that my daughter, and other survivors, would be "presentable" as a spokespersons before the GAO Hearings - and that they would not be unpresentable-shabby-ex-junkie-hippy-types; who would not be believeable by Congressman Miller's panel.
I also stated that you had no idea of the abuse that my daughter suffered in her program - and in no way did I negate that "rolling boulders, eating crappy food, and sleeping without a blanket" was NON-ABUSIVE.
I never mentioned your daughter; and I never used profanity towards you; and I never invited anyone to abuse you.
You are rude - you use word games- you resort to profanity - and resort to involving your own daughter in an attempt to win a point in any discussion.
It seems to be your position that pushing people- especially women- around is how you win your wordy, little arguments. I have nothing else to say to you, at this time. Go post to someone else who might care about what you have to say!
Go back and look at the posts again. You were the one addressing my post first and dragged your daughter into it, not me, I never mentioned that she wasn’t presentable or even the words “shabby, ex-junkie hippy typeâ€
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Thanks for your contribution, Niles, its good to see you are trying out words. The next step might be to stop bashing what others write and contribute an opinion of your own. Maybe start focusing on helping out some kids/parents instead of trolling.
Give it a try.
You're new here aren't you?
No, that's what you do 99.99999% of the time. But, of course you can't contribute much since you have no understanding of it. You never went to a program.
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[. Parental guilt can be really corrosive as well, to everyone; a guilty parent sends the message that since they are guilty of screwing up as parents then it follows that the result, their child, is really screwed up. And parents who feel really guilty tend to make decsions based more on a need to assuage the guilt feelings which can blind them to what the real need is.
What has helped me with my own kids whose behavior at times would certainly be viewed by society as malignant is being honest with myself; painful retrospection, accountibility for my own errors, a genuine and avid interest in LISTENING to how whatever I have done has affected them and working to develop a real friendship with them. Listening instead of lecturing, being there for them no matter what, being on their side no matter, has enabled a real bond of trust to develop. And I love my kids, have always worked hard, done the very best I could always with the best of intentions and still made mistakes. Such is life.[/quote]
god damn I hate it when i cry at fornits. I wish to god my mom would spend two hours at this stupid website.
thank you for your intelligent post. too bad you sent your kid to pigfucking school. but at least you understand us better now, right?
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Who, why don't you just apologize to Joyce, you obviously didn't single her out, but I can certainly see how your comment would be insulting to her. Miller obviously had a strategy, which seems to have worked, since he got the interest from Congress he was looking for. Doesn't really matter what his strategy was or why.
Then we can move on and stay on topic. I'm actually interested in hearing what other parents have to say, since we now apparently have our own thread. I'm moving on in my quest for ACCOUNTABILITY, and the more information I have, the more ammunition I have. I'm working with a protection and advocacy organization, and they are VERY interested in how these kids have been exploited, and why so many of them have ended up dead or abused.
to all of you who have had kids abused in a program, or have been abused yourself, especially if it's very recent, PLEASE start filing complaints with every organization in your state that will listen to you. Every state has some kind of protection and advocacy group staffed by attorneys who are committed to the welfare of kids. If you can't find one, contact the National Youth Law Center and ask them for help. http://http://www.youthlaw.org/child_welfare/ While this organization does not represent people in individual cases, they have a wealth of information and can get you pointed in the right direction. People who work in this arena are aware of the hearing, many have seen it, and they are very open right now to hearing your stories. It's helpful to have a concise account of your story, with a timeline, and as much documentation, emails, phone call records, invoices, behavior reports, etc as you can provide.
Pitbull Mom aka Hippie Chick Soccer Mom
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i ronically the who recommended I read this book a yr ago because he thought it would make me see that ALA is one f the good ones. When I first finished it i assumed that he was veing ironic
Did you mean ASR?
sorry. Yeas imeant asr
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Pitbull Mom wrote:
Who, why don't you just apologize to Joyce, you obviously didn't single her out, but I can certainly see how your comment would be insulting to her. Miller obviously had a strategy, which seems to have worked, since he got the interest from Congress he was looking for. Doesn't really matter what his strategy was or why.................
PM, If I knew what to apologize for I would. I read over my posts and I dont see how they were insulting.
My point is that Miller knows these committees and he knows who would best represent his cause. He shouldn’t get beat up for it. Tobacco Company’s don’t send chain smokers to represent them, the alcohol pushers don’t send an out of control alcoholic to represent their industry and so on. It’s no slight against anyone that he choose the parents of kids who died vs kids who attended.
They put what they feel is their best representation and go with it, this should not be insulting to people. My daughter attended a program and I don’t feel it is insulting to her.... I think she would make a great spokesperson, although I don’t think George Miller would agree with me I don’t take it as a personal insult to myself or my daughter.
If I am missing something please point it out, but I don’t see it.
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My point is that Miller knows these committees and he knows who would best represent his cause. He shouldn’t get beat up for it. Tobacco Company’s don’t send chain smokers to represent them, the alcohol pushers don’t send an out of control alcoholic to represent their industry and so on. It’s no slight against anyone that he choose the parents of kids who died vs kids who attended.
Yet again you insinuate programs actually treat anything and kids there actually need treatment!
Considering the blatant lack of diagnosis or any amount of "proof" or "facts" to get in the way of your ranting and raving I find this quite amusing.
But then again considering you admit to being a paid agent provocateur, what should I expect?
You unethical bastard.
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assWHO said -
PM, If I knew what to apologize for I would. I read over my posts and I dont see how they were insulting.
That's program speak for "fuck you", basically. It's just the nice, proper way to say it.
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Stop putting words in Millers mouth. Seriously all of this crap you are spouting about credibility and Miller's intentions are bull shit who. The first GAO report focused on deaths, which you would know if you cared to read it. Logic dictates that those kids can't speak for themselves so their parents were the next best spokesmen to highlight the focus of the FIRST GAO report. The 2nd report will focus on abuse and I expect survivors to testify, until then it's all needless speculation, K? Good, let's get back on topic...
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Stop putting words in Millers mouth. Seriously all of this crap you are spouting about credibility and Miller's intentions are bull shit who. The first GAO report focused on deaths, which you would know if you cared to read it. Logic dictates that those kids can't speak for themselves so their parents were the next best spokesmen to highlight the focus of the FIRST GAO report. The 2nd report will focus on abuse and I expect survivors to testify, until then it's all needless speculation, K? Good, let's get back on topic...
And you know this because? Seriously, you seem to infer that you know more than the average joe. Why is that? Second, what's up with the commands to stay on topic? This is Rampant Talking Out of Group. Remember??? Stop fucking with the formula. :rofl:
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Watch the hearing where that was all discussed. Oh and "commands", really? If that's how you see it oh well can't help you there.
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Back on Topic, K? Classic passive-aggressive moderation. At least I'm direct - stop fucking with the RTOOG formula.
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Stop putting words in Millers mouth. Seriously all of this crap you are spouting about credibility and Miller's intentions are bull shit who. The first GAO report focused on deaths, which you would know if you cared to read it. Logic dictates that those kids can't speak for themselves so their parents were the next best spokesmen to highlight the focus of the FIRST GAO report. The 2nd report will focus on abuse and I expect survivors to testify, until then it's all needless speculation, K? Good, let's get back on topic...
I think you may be full of crap, you didn’t know what his intentions were until the hearings like everyone else. I read the lead up report and watched the testimony live. Why was everyone so upset because survivors were not invited to the first hearing if he made it clear that they were focusing on Deaths in the first hearing and abuse for the second hearing?
If this was so clear why didn’t anyone hear about it except you?
My comments were developed and based on his possible reasoning for not including survivors testimony, which to date, he has not asked for.
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Stop putting words in Millers mouth. Seriously all of this crap you are spouting about credibility and Miller's intentions are bull shit who. The first GAO report focused on deaths, which you would know if you cared to read it. Logic dictates that those kids can't speak for themselves so their parents were the next best spokesmen to highlight the focus of the FIRST GAO report. The 2nd report will focus on abuse and I expect survivors to testify, until then it's all needless speculation, K? Good, let's get back on topic...
I think you may be full of crap, you didn’t know what his intentions were until the hearings like everyone else[Never said I did, so where the hell did you get that idea from?] . I read the lead up report[No idiot, I said read the GAO report] and watched the testimony live. Why was everyone so upset because survivors were not invited to the first hearing if he made it clear that they were focusing on Deaths in the first hearing and abuse for the second hearing?
If this was so clear why didn’t anyone hear about it except you?[Twisting my words again, the information about the 2nd report was reveled during the hearings, and the first report was released during the hearings. I never claimed I knew before hand what the focus of the report would be]
My comments were developed and based on his possible reasoning for not including survivors testimony, which to date, he has not asked for.[Oh I guess that whole GAO investigation he asked for came out of thin air, not testimony from survivors.]
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Because no one knew until the report was released what was going to be in it or what the focus would be. And he hasn't asked for survivor testimony? Who do you think the GAO was talking with? You are full of shit because you keep trying to say that Miller doesn't view survivors as credible. That is your bit of propaganda that comes right out of your shit hole, ya know that thing you talk with.
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Because no one knew until the report was released what was going to be in it or what the focus would be.
Bingo!! finally.. and we wont know if and how many survivors he will ask for the second hearing until we see it or Mr. Miller decides to release that information.
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Because no one knew until the report was released what was going to be in it or what the focus would be.
Bingo!! finally.. and we wont know if and how many survivors he will ask for the second hearing until we see it or Mr. Miller decides to release that information.
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OMG!!! Who what a revelation!
The 2nd report will focus on abuse and I expect survivors to testify, until then it's all needless speculation, K? Good, let's get back on topic...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Exactly, so lets not all get bent out of shape because people speculated on what Mr. Millers intentions are… whether or not he invites survivors to the next meeting is his call and he will do what he feels is right and in the best interest of the cause (as he sees it).
In the mean time people will have opinions and lets not poke them with a sharp stick because you don’t agree with them or like them.
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Exactly, so lets not all get bent out of shape because people speculated on what Mr. Millers intentions are… whether or not he invites survivors to the next meeting is his call and he will do what he feels is right and in the best interest of the cause (as he sees it).
In the mean time people will have opinions and lets not poke them with a sharp stick because you don’t agree with them or like them.
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No you are trying to paint the first hearings in a certain light NOW. The report explains quiet clearly what I stated, the focus was on deaths in the first report. So yes your "speculation" in this thread is flat out misinformation and lies.
the Committee asked GAO to (1) verify
whether allegations of abuse and
death at residential treatment
programs are widespread and
(2) examine the facts and
circumstances surrounding
selected closed cases where a
teenager died while enrolled in a
private program.
To select our case studies, we identified numerous closed civil and criminal cases in which a court was asked to decide whether a private residential treatment program was responsible for the death of an enrolled teenager.
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No you are trying to paint the first hearings in a certain light NOW. The report explains quiet clearly what I stated, the focus was on deaths in the first report. So yes your "speculation" in this thread is flat out misinformation and lies.
No it is not, how can speculation be lies? This is how Mr. Miller may have viewed his strategy for the first hearing, none of us know this, Hanzo. He might have decide to present abuse cases first and deaths later, but decided that having parents would be more credible for the initial meeting to try to get buy-in from his panel.
He may or may nor decide to place people who went thru these institutions in front of the panel to testify.. all of us can speculate and express our opinions.
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Nobody wants your opinion.
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lols look at the who's user title.
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I'm a parent. In my experience the biggest problem in the "help" industry which includes psychiatrists and psychologists, not just RTCs is that very few so-called "professionals" have the balls to examine and point out the problems in the entire family situation. Almost all parents lack the courage to take a hard, honest look into how their behavior and attitudes have helped to get the entire family to where they are. Many parents seem to be much more psychologically fragile then their "troubled" kids. They cannot really take close examination or anything smacking of criticism. The so-called "professionals" cater to those who control the purse strings. No one becomes a "troubled teen" overnight; it is a from birth process. Most parents don't realize that they cannot really control kids; they can and do influence them, in good and bad ways. Good influence starts in childhood and begins with trust. There seems to be two major parenting modes with thousands of variations and they are: 1) I'm the parent, the boss and you better do what I say or else. Do as I say, not as I do. 2) I'm the parent and my desire is to guide, protect and honor your humanity. I will live my life as an example you can trust.
How can we hold kids "accountable" if we don't hold ourselves accountable? I know this doesn't help once people find themselves at the mercy of the industry and are at a loss. Parental guilt can be really corrosive as well, to everyone; a guilty parent sends the message that since they are guilty of screwing up as parents then it follows that the result, their child, is really screwed up. And parents who feel really guilty tend to make decsions based more on a need to assuage the guilt feelings which can blind them to what the real need is.
What has helped me with my own kids whose behavior at times would certainly be viewed by society as malignant is being honest with myself; painful retrospection, accountibility for my own errors, a genuine and avid interest in LISTENING to how whatever I have done has affected them and working to develop a real friendship with them. Listening instead of lecturing, being there for them no matter what, being on their side no matter, has enabled a real bond of trust to develop. And I love my kids, have always worked hard, done the very best I could always with the best of intentions and still made mistakes. Such is life.
There is hope for humanity.
Parents.. follow this example.
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bump
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What part of this issue is most important to you? The abuse, lack of options, misleading advertisement? Do you put much stake in what survivors say about what they witnessed or experienced in programs? What part of the movement to end abuse in programs do you feel advocates are not addressing? What do you feel is a good program or what qualities do you think makes a program good or bad?
All of that is important -- abuse, lack of options, deception -- and yes I put a lot of stock in what survivors say they have experienced. Like the old saying 'where there's smoke there's fire' -- there have been way too many kids killed, abused and psychologically harmed for any sensible person to say the complaints are due to a few disgruntled individuals.
Any intelligent parent that has done a little bit of web research should draw the conclusion that there are a lot of con artists in this industry, and that overall, this 'teen help' business is really foul. But that doesn't mean they stop looking for help if they have a child who really needs help and has not been getting it from local resources. It is these well-meaning parents -- the ones who truly want the best for their kids -- who are most easily seduced by an ed con or someone else who comes along promising a 'good program' -- something that promises real therapy, a real education, a healthy environment and some wholesome fun activities. Maybe such programs exist, maybe they don't. But there is no question that thousands of parents with 'troubled teens' are looking for exactly that, after everything else they've tried seems to have gone nowhere.
The part of the movement against institutionalized child abuse that advocates are not addressing nearly enough is the lack of local resources and options. Yes, every city of any size has it's share of psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists, drug abuse counselors, etc. Most parents try several of these before they even think about something as extreme as a residential program. But these local resources are often ineffective in offering much help. Most psychiatrists are all about putting kids on powerful drugs, and many psychologists are too easily bullshitted by kids who are just going through the motions because their parents expect them to 'give therapy a try.
Some kids might need therapy, but every kid needs much more than that -- they need direction, a sense of purpose, a feeling of self-worth, they need healthy relationships with friends and family, they need fun, love, worthwhile things to do with their time, and lots of other things. They need all those same things that we adults need, but some kids seem to have a tough time finding them or even accepting them when they're simply given to them.
It's easy to blame parents for 'not being a parent,' and it's so easy for others to judge when they haven't walked in a parent's shoes. Parenting is the toughest job there is, and what works well for one kid doesn't always work for another -- even in the same family. Programs don't offer solutions, but neither do many other people. We're all out here on our own trying to figure this out step by step. We don't have all the answers and sometimes our kids throw us curve ball after curve ball, to the point where we sometimes feel completely incompetent and helpless to do anything right.
We can't make our kids stop their attempts to destroy their lives, but since we love them we can still express our concerns and try to persuade them to get help and to make better decisions. We sure could use a little bit of support, especially someone or something or someplace in our own communities.
I sometimes laugh at the way 'insanedeadorinjail' is discussed here as if it's complete bullshit. Yes, programs feed on parents' fears and use this as part of the sales process. And the anti-program criticism is valid -- most kids don't die or go insane or end up in jail. But that's little comfort to a parent of a kid who has tried to commit suicide or been to the ER for a drug overdose, or who has a history of mental health problems or who has had multiple run-ins with the law. Or worse, a parent of a kid who has experienced all of the above. Again, programs don't have any answers, but the really sad and frustrating thing is...neither does anybody else.
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Hello Fornits, and sorry I've been away for so long. Had to take care of some things, like life, parenthood, and so on.
Nice to see someone quoting what I wrote a year and half ago. I still stand by most of it, but I'm not so convinced anymore about the importance of "local resources," or "community based treatment." I have come to believe that treatment of any sort is mostly bullshit, even when conducted by truly kind-hearted licensed professionals. I had a teen who is now well into adulthood, who had many of the usual problems that lure parents into "treatment" and sometimes into "programs." If his issues had just been the kind of teenage bullshit most of us middle-agers did -- drugs, sex, defiance of authority, minor vandalism and skirmishes with law enforcement, refusing to follow any organized religion, and so on -- then I could deal and I could relate. Been there done that. But when your kid seems truly fucked up in the head, in ways you can't relate to -- in ways that make you terrified for their very survival -- you feel like you need to do SOMETHING -- get some professional help, before he kills himself of does some permanent damage.
But that "professional help", even in the best, most caring of circumstances, usually involves powerful mind-altering drugs, and not the fun kind, but the kind that can keep you messed up long-term. The kind that have side effects. The kind that some shrinks like to experiment with in "off label" dosages. But desperate parents who have tried "professional help" sometimes decide, after it doesn't help, that maybe something really radical is called for. Thus the allure of programs. It's not even an "allure" -- it's more like the last act of desperation, like a cancer patient who gets all the best treatment but continues to get worse, to the point where they want to try any snake oil promise of a cure, no matter how bullshit it sounds.
So over time he has weaned himself off of all that chemical shit, and life is not always (or usually) nice and rosy -- some days just plain suck and are terrible for him and everyone around him. But other days are hopeful and include a few smiles and laughs.
The most important medicine and the most important "therapy" is just LOVE. That's it. It might not cure every mental illness, but it beats the shit out of anything that comes in a pill or that comes in words spoken by a stranger while you sit on the couch and tell them how you feel.
On Fornits, we try to educate people about the evils of programs and convince parents not to fall for the snake oil sales pitch. But I think the problem starts with that first encounter with "behavioral health professionals" -- the mainstream healthcare system. In most cases, that system is just as worthless as programs, even though it seems unabusive or less abusive.
The best thing we can do for our "troubled" kids is to love them, and teach them to beware of authority, and to watch out for the Man, and to be independent free-thinkers. And to keep a stash of cash on hand in case lawyers are required.
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Good to see you back, best of luck to you and the rest of the family.
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The best thing we can do for our "troubled" kids is to love them, and teach them to beware of authority, and to watch out for the Man, and to be independent free-thinkers. And to keep a stash of cash on hand in case lawyers are required.
Well said.
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And to keep a stash of cash on hand in case lawyers are required.
And to beware of slapp suits, educated in the law, and aware of your rights.