Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 10:34:58 AM

Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 10:34:58 AM
The hearings have started, watch the hearings (http://http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia/edwork/fc/fc101007.asx)

edit:Updated the link to the archived footage
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 11:05:59 AM
A father just stuck his foot into natsap saying at the end of his testimony, about his sons death, how the Alldredge Academy continues to be a proud member of NATSAP.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 11:08:31 AM
Hell, another parent just stuck it to NATSAP over a death at Catherine Freer Wilderness Expeditions.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Che Gookin on October 10, 2007, 11:19:59 AM
the natsap shill's response ought to be interesting.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 11:39:02 AM
Holy monkey shit, look at the guys in the background. They look like a bunch of elementary schoolers about to go on stage for the first time. The nervousness is palpable.

C'mon, Miller: You can use the phrase whack-a-mole.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Che Gookin on October 10, 2007, 11:43:02 AM
I'll forgive george for being a shithead if he asks the natsap shill to do a barrel roll.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 11:48:43 AM
Miller knows what he's talking about. The hyper-pwnage is apparent. Kutz is strident and confident. Foot, ass, etc.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: ChristineMarie on October 10, 2007, 11:51:00 AM
I can't get the link to work
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 11:54:19 AM
"I'm sorry I don't have that information in my hand right now": Hahahaha. Moss looks like someone who's walked into a viper pit and is surprised to find vipers.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 11:55:05 AM
Quote from: ""ChristineMarie""
I can't get the link to work


Copypaste into your media player.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: ZenAgent on October 10, 2007, 12:09:13 PM
Heh...I haven't been able to watch, but Hanzo's notes are giving me a feeling of relief.  NATSAP's hubris is gonna end  up making them look like cold blooded bastards.  A START had to deal with NATSAP's arrogance at the conference/symposium they did in Florida, and they know exactly what NATSAP is about.  I just realized, there's an anagram:  SATAN P-  Satan programs?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 12:10:49 PM
NATSAP is trying to play a good game, the panel needs to focus more on abuse to really ring out natsap's bs. The good thing is that the GAO is still investigating, so survivors get in contact. Especially those abused in licensed, JCAHO, and NATSAP accredited programs (Provo Canyon, Peninsula Village, Elan).

What gets me though is that they act like this shit is new, hello Straight/Seed?

*note: We really should have a list of known abusive NATSAP programs
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 12:13:52 PM
Actually Zen the best acronym for them is APANTS, A- having its general meaning of 'lack of' or 'without', as in amoral or atheist.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 12:21:44 PM
Hanzomon, such a list can already be found at http://www.natsap.com/programs_list.asp (http://www.natsap.com/programs_list.asp) .
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 12:50:59 PM
Great!!! they have touched on the shuffling of programs and staff from state to state/name to name.

And now the NATSAP lady is being grilled on how they follow up on complaints, in short she's drowning.

EDIT: DAMN!!! She got threatened with a subpoena if she did not cough up the records on the complaints NATSAP has "investigated".
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 01:01:59 PM
The Alldredge Academy owes the fed thousands for not paying rent on federal land. Miller then laid into the NATSAP lady, asking at one point "what the hell do you do?".... Crazy man, Crazy!!!!
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 01:08:29 PM
The GAO guy made the statement that only after a death were licenses revoked, making him wonder why prior abuse was not taken as seriously. He then said abuse will be the focus of the next investigation due out early next year.

They then touched upon the fact that programs are not always licensed for everything they provide, like mental health services. i.e. licensed as a school but not as a lockdown mental hospital
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 01:15:59 PM
A panel guy just said that he believes that NATSAP is just a pretty sticker. He expressed concern that programs use NATSAP as a marketing tool, which is misleading in his opinion. He said they have a lot to prove.

The ASTART lady just said that all the shit about NATSAP being concerned about the treatment of kids is a pile of shit. She said how NATSAP wrote on their website that ASTART's report was just a view complaints by nosy individuals.

Word: The Panel is pissed!!!
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 01:30:10 PM
Sorry for the short little undetailed  updates but I'm watching and typing at the same time. ASTART lady defended the truthfulness of what survivors say and their right to speak, so good news on that. The panel seemed very concerned about the issue and will be doing more work on it as well as the GAO.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 01:32:12 PM
All that's left to say is NATSAP just got owned (http://http://natsap.justgotowned.com/)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 01:44:22 PM
One panel guy mentioned he had a few family members who went to these places and seemed pleased with their outcome.  So it looks like they recognize the abuse doesnt apply to all places.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 01:49:10 PM
Said panel guy was embarrassed to admit it and said friends will probably be pulling their kids soon.

If, of course, he was referring to these hellholes at all. Real boarding schools still exist.
Title: Accountability
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 01:54:05 PM
I'm so happy with Miller's hearing. They are finally getting it.

Ms Pinto did an good job.She cares.  

I wonder where Lon Woodbury is in all of this BS. His ED CON referred us to Catherine Freer a few years back. We didnt go but it was one of their suggestions.

Struggling Teens too is a BIg accomplice in these abuses.Referring to unlicensed,unskilled programs etc.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 01:56:54 PM
Anybody make a copy of this hearing or will it be a permanently available on the committee's website?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 01:57:18 PM
So it seems they are going to help NATSAP gain some teeth and recognize them as the front runners to hold these schools feet to the fire...good for them!!!  It will give them cause to boot some of these schools out of their organization....  same thing happened to JCHAO which set them up as the gold standard at the time.

It was a little embarrassing for Kutz when he was asked several times for the number of deaths in facilities and he refused to give the number, just stated thousands were abused, whats up with that?  Trying to miss lead the panel that there were a lot more deaths than there really are and by the looks on their faces I think they realized it and never asked again or persued it again to give him a break.

The ASTART lady seemed pissed at the state agencies and how they are set up.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 02:00:19 PM
Who - even one kid abused to death is one kid too many.

Face it, Natsap had egg all over their face today.

The big "guns" have not even spoken yet, that being the survivors who were abused and watched others abused, and even die, before their very eyes.

Score Miller 10 Natsap 0
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 02:03:29 PM
Ah, Captain Clueless comes in with his usual brand of bullshit.

NATSAP was blown out of the water early and never recovered. Something tells me they're not going to be taken seriously in the future.

And the actual conversation where Kutz said "thousands of cases" went like this:

Kutz: "Thousands of cases of deaths and abuse."

Panel guy: "Thousands of deaths?"

Kutz (correcting him immediately): "And abuse." (paraphrasing begins now) "We don't have figures of how many deaths, because there's no central tabulation at the state or federal level."

Of course he doesn't have hard numbers you fucktwit- he can't get them. What's he going to do, go around and ask every single county in every single state where a program exists, and try to find out where each one died?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 02:04:39 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
So it seems they are going to help NATSAP gain some teeth and recognize them as the front runners to hold these schools feet to the fire...good for them!!!  It will give them cause to boot some of these schools out of their organization....  same thing happened to JCHAO which set them up as the gold standard at the time.

It was a little embarrassing for Kutz when he was asked several times for the number of deaths in facilities and he refused to give the number, just stated thousands were abused, whats up with that? Trying to miss lead the panel that there were a lot more deaths than there really are and by the looks on their faces I think they realized it and never asked again or persued it again to give him a break.

The ASTART lady seemed pissed at the state agencies and how they are set up.


Bull shit, he explained in clear english that there were much more instances of abuse then deaths, which will be the focus of round two. Your org NATSAP just got owned nationally and the panel was royally pissed with them, not the GAO.

NATSAP got outed for being nothing more the a misleading sticker. I hope someone has a recorded version.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 02:05:41 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Ah, Captain Clueless comes in with his usual brand of bullshit.

NATSAP was blown out of the water early and never recovered. Something tells me they're not going to be taken seriously in the future.

And the actual conversation where Kutz said "thousands of cases" went like this:

Kutz: "Thousands of cases of deaths and abuse."

Panel guy: "Thousands of deaths?"

Kutz (correcting him immediately): "And abuse." (paraphrasing begins now) "We don't have figures of how many deaths, because there's no central tabulation at the state or federal level."

Of course he doesn't have hard numbers you fucktwit- he can't get them. What's he going to do, go around and ask every single county in every single state where a program exists, and try to find out where each one died?


so how does he know thousands?...Ha,Ha,Ha,  He didnt want to give the number..we all know that and so did the panel.. they asked him several different ways and he danced.....
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 02:09:59 PM
Reading TheWho's posts spawns a vision of Hitler's last days in his bunker, moving imaginary armies around while his city was annihilated above him.
Title: Hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 02:12:59 PM
Was the lady sitting behind Ms Pinto with an ugly aggravated frown on her face Izzy?


I didnt see Scheff in the audience. I thought I saw Lichfield in the far back.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: ChristineMarie on October 10, 2007, 02:16:46 PM
Is there a recorded version somewhere that I can watch? I missed it live, couldn't get the link to work for me.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Kreflo on October 10, 2007, 02:19:26 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Ah, Captain Clueless comes in with his usual brand of bullshit.

NATSAP was blown out of the water early and never recovered. Something tells me they're not going to be taken seriously in the future.

And the actual conversation where Kutz said "thousands of cases" went like this:

Kutz: "Thousands of cases of deaths and abuse."

Panel guy: "Thousands of deaths?"

Kutz (correcting him immediately): "And abuse." (paraphrasing begins now) "We don't have figures of how many deaths, because there's no central tabulation at the state or federal level."

Of course he doesn't have hard numbers you fucktwit- he can't get them. What's he going to do, go around and ask every single county in every single state where a program exists, and try to find out where each one died?


He won't find one in here. We keep that info ON the Penninsula
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 02:20:13 PM
Damn. I only heard parts of it. Every parent considering a program should view this hearing. Will it be available to view? Hanzo, can you run that down? I would like several copies to send to parents.

I was very pleased of course, to hear strong support by Kutz, Pinto, and McCarthy for the creation of a centralized data collecting point. The industry will die a natural death when all cases of abuse, neglect, physical/sexual assaults, avoidable accidents and injuries, and deaths are compiled.

Was Moss the best NATSAP rep to send? Really? Who could've done better at spinning a yarn of shit.  She knew nothing of relevance. She got spanked good, but wish someone had ripped her on deceiving the committee to believe that NATSAP had strengthened their requirements. They have always required programs to be licensed AND/OR accredited. The key there OR. Accreditation means little to nothing. Want some teeth in it? Require all programs to be licensed AND accredited. Both the 'therapeutic' and the educational components need to be regulated and monitored, fwiw.

127 of their 184 "better" programs are listed as being licensed by their state DHS. I haven't confirm these.
28 have JCAHO accreditation.- I consider this useless until JCAHO puts a list of requirements out for public scrutiny.
5 have CARF accreditation.- Interesting observation and comparison here. All 5 CARF certified programs are licensed by their state. Does CARF require this? Why doesn't JCAHO? Perhaps because they have program shills on their advisory board?
Only 77 have accreditation through an Academic Accrediting Agency like SACS.
28 belong to another Industry Assoc, AEE.
16 belong to another, OBHIC.
4 are actually members of IECA- the Ed Con Assoc.

Some, such as-- Benchmark, Betton House, Bromley Brook, Change Academy of the Ozarks, Chrysalis, Coral Reef Academy, Echo Springs, Fulshear Ranch, In Balance Ranch Academy, King George, Life Designs, Living Well Transistions, Midnight Mountain Life Skills, Optimum Performance Institute, Passages to Recovery, Pine River Institute, San Cristobal Academy, Transistions of Galveston, Turning Winds Academy Institute--    have NONE of the above, only their membership in NATSAP.

57 are operating unlicensed programs, wilderness or 'therapeutic'. Several claim to be boarding school and staunchly refuse licensing and monitoring.
They are (heavy on Aspen Programs)

Academy at Swift River
Academy of the Sierras
Auldern Academy
Benchmark Young Adult School
Betton House (Family Foundation)
Blackwater Outdoor Experiences
Bromley Brook School
Building Bridges
Change Academy Lake of the Ozarks
Chrysalis
Coral Reef Academy
Echo Springs Transistion Study Center
Elan
Evangel House Christian Academy
Excel Academy
Family Foundation School
Fulshear Ranch Academy
Granite Hill School
In Balance Ranch Academy
John Dewey Academy
King George School
Life Designs
Living Well Transistions
Midnight Mtn Life Skills Training Center
Mission Mtn School
Montana Academy
Montcalm Outdoor Challenge Program
Montcalm School for Boys
New Dominion School of Virginia
New Leaf Academy of NC
New Lifestyles
Northwest Passages
Odyssey Wilderness Program
Optimum Performance Institute
Passages to Recovery
Penrith Farms
Pine River Institute
San Cristobal Academy
Second Nature Blue Ridge
Shortridge Academy
Soltreks
St Paul's Preparatory Academy
Star Meadows Academy at Hope Ranch
Stone Mtn School
Summit Preparatory School
SUWS of the Carolinas
The Oliverian School
Three Rivers Montana
Trainsitions of Galveston Island
Turning Winds Academies Institute
Wendigo Lake Expeditions
Wilderness Treatment Center
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 02:31:01 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
One panel guy mentioned he had a few family members who went to these places and seemed pleased with their outcome.  So it looks like they recognize the abuse doesnt apply to all places.


That would be Bucky McKeon. If someone has time, they might run him down and see if he has connects to the industry other than a 'couple of friends who sent their kids to programs'.
http://mckeon.house.gov/ (http://mckeon.house.gov/)

You can't "recognize the abuse doesn't apply to all places". An impossiblity as has been shown in this hearing. Get Bucky to cough up the names of the programs and I'll see what I can find on them.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 02:36:03 PM
Looks like a recorded stream can be found on the hearings website (http://http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml). It's not working for me though, may just need some time.

EDIT: It works, I'll work on steam ripping a version that can be downloaded and viewed locally
Title: Re: Accountability
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 02:37:23 PM
Quote from: ""Guest2""
I'm so happy with Miller's hearing. They are finally getting it.
Ms Pinto did an good job.She cares.  
I wonder where Lon Woodbury is in all of this BS. His ED CON referred us to Catherine Freer a few years back. We didnt go but it was one of their suggestions.
Struggling Teens too is a BIg accomplice in these abuses.Referring to unlicensed,unskilled programs etc.


The GAO needs to be strongly encouraged to take up this issue. Ed Cons are not regulated either. If they are going to charge exhorbitant fees for giving their opinions (er.. excuse me... accessing your child's needs), they should hold some responsibility- be required to know more than the owner's reputation in the industry.
For instance, confirm the programs they refer to are licensed and accredited, if there have been any cases of abuse, neglect, death, etc. That a bare minimum.
What I would give to be part of the GAO investigation team. They're doing okay, but leaving so much out.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 02:54:13 PM
Alright ripping to asf format, it should work on most systems.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 02:59:45 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Looks like a recorded stream can be found on the hearings website (http://http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml). It's not working for me though, may just need some time.

EDIT: It works, I'll work on steam ripping a version that can be downloaded and viewed locally


 ::kiss::
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 03:10:33 PM
A few thoughts:

Looks like this placed NATSAP right in the middle of the mess and the committee is looking towards them to clean it up.  They have a golden opportunity to grow some teeth and start holding these places feet to the fire ….if they do their job they can become a better asset to the industry …if they don’t they may become obsolete.  It will be real interesting to see how this plays out.


It seemed the panel viewed the industry as “Wilderness programs
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 03:12:44 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
A panel guy just said that he believes that NATSAP is just a pretty sticker. He expressed concern that programs use NATSAP as a marketing tool, which is misleading in his opinion. He said they have a lot to prove.

Moss.... "we don't want to be the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval". Then what the F, do you want to be/do?
Moss.... "we're asking for your help."  
To do what? Tell you how to run an industry association?
Moss...."I'll take that back to the board". "I don't know, I'll take that back to the board". "I don't have that information, I'll take that back to the board."
Miller...."You're gonna have one busy board when you get back".

Anyone else notice that he thanked all the witnesses, EXCEPT Moss. I kept waiting, wondering what he'd say to her. Nothing.

Quote
The ASTART lady just said that all the shit about NATSAP being concerned about the treatment of kids is a pile of shit. She said how NATSAP wrote on their website that ASTART's report was just a view complaints by nosy individuals.
Word: The Panel is pissed!!!


Yeh, Pinto was good. Glad she was there. Would like to have been feeding her additional info through an ear piece, but she did a good job addressing NATSAPs BS. I didn't get to hear her testimony though. Looking forward to that.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 03:29:41 PM
Kutz:  "The negative reports we recieved were not a representative sample..."

Panel:  "How many of the thousands of abuses and deaths were actually deaths?"

Kutz: " The majority were abuses"  Trying to fool the panel into believing thousands died!!

Panel:  "Do you have a number of those who died"

Kutz:  Refused to disclose the number of deaths leaving the panel to believe the parents present represented the only children who died.

Panel/ Miller:  appeared not to be pleased in Kutz lack of preperation and dodging the questions.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Antigen on October 10, 2007, 03:37:10 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
So it seems they are going to help NATSAP gain some teeth and recognize them as the front runners to hold these schools feet to the fire...good for them!!!  It will give them cause to boot some of these schools out of their organization....  same thing happened to JCHAO which set them up as the gold standard at the time.



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Get Video Code For YouTube Music Videos 60s 70s - Beatles - Nowhere Man
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 03:37:59 PM
::roflmao::
Kutz will have that data before the next hearing.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 03:44:47 PM
GAO: Poor Staffing Cited in Youths' Deaths at 'Boot Camp'
By Howard Schneider
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 10, 2007; 10:50 AM

Ineffective management and poorly trained staff contributed to the deaths of as many as 10 youths at "boot camp" and other private residential treatment centers between 1990 and 2004, federal investigators have concluded.

Although meant to help troubled teens through "wilderness therapy," intense military-style discipline and other methods, the largely unregulated cottage industry of facilities has generated thousands of instances of alleged abuse, the Government Accountability Office found in a study released today.
 
Information on the facilities is not centralized and remains spotty, the report concluded. Some states closely regulate the private facilities, while others oversee them only loosely.

But by scouring court records and Web sites and interviewing lawyers, family and others familiar with the facilities, the GAO found more than 1,600 cases of alleged abuse in 33 states in 2005 alone.

The study did not include publicly run foster care or juvenile justice programs, only the private facilities that often serve as a last resort for the parents and family of behaviorally troubled or substance-abusing teens.

The issue of abuse at such facilities has been a recurrent one at the local level. Seven boot camp guards and a nurse are on trial in Florida for manslaughter in the January 2006 death of 14-year-old Martin Lee Anderson, who died after being repeatedly struck in an altercation with them.

Even some programs sponsored by states have come into question at times. In Maryland, allegations of abuse at state-run boot camps led to the shake-up of the state's juvenile justice agency in 1999 and the suspension of the program.

The findings of the GAO's study, the subject of hearings this morning before a House committee, will cast a national spotlight on a network of private businesses and boarding schools that promise to turn around the lives of troubled kids by teaching them survival skills or bringing more discipline to their lives. There are about 71 such programs operating around the nation, the GAO said. The study did not include enrollment statistics.

Neither did the agency's report examine the effectiveness of the methods involved, noting only that "many cite positive outcomes." But, in examining the cases of 10 youths who died, the agency concluded that facility managers and staff were often ill-equipped to teach the very skills they promised -- or ready to handle an emergency when it arose.

One 15-year-old, for example, whose parents had paid $20,000 for a nine-week program in Utah to help her overcome the psychological effects of a date-rape, died during a wilderness hike in 1990 despite showing symptoms of dehydration for two days. The five-day hike was the first such trip conducted by the fledgling program, and hike leaders "were not familiar with the area, relied upon maps and a compass to navigate the difficult terrain, and became lost."

The girl stopped eating and began vomiting on the third day, but was ignored by staff who "thought she was faking," the GAO wrote, noting that brochures advertised the staff as "highly trained survival experts." The girl collapsed two days later -- staff did have radios to summon help -- and died despite efforts to perform CPR.

In another case, a 14-year-old boy, was sent by his parents to another program in Utah, apparently to address behavioral problems associated with his bipolar and attention deficit disorders. During a hike, he displayed signs of elevated body temperature -- hyperthermia. Two staff members moved him into the shade, but then left him unaided for 10 minutes while one hid behind a tree and watched to determine if he was feigning illness. When the staff member returned, the boy had no pulse and was unresponsive to CPR.

A program manager was found not guilty of a felony child abuse charge. Although the program was shut down, the owner subsequently opened another facility.

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Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 03:46:00 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
::roflmao::
Kutz will have that data before the next hearing.


.....He better, it didnt make him look too good!!  I think we saw the last of "I'll take that back to the board" Moss...She should have stayed at the "Holiday inn" (was that the right commercial?)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Pitbull Mom on October 10, 2007, 03:53:01 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Deborah""
::roflmao::
Kutz will have that data before the next hearing.

.....He better, it didnt make him look too good!!  I think we saw the last of "I'll take that back to the board" Moss...She should have stayed at the "Holiday inn" (was that the right commercial?)


the committe already has that information. i faxed it to them during the hearing. ::bangin::
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 04:00:08 PM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Deborah""
::roflmao::
Kutz will have that data before the next hearing.

.....He better, it didnt make him look too good!!  I think we saw the last of

Ha,Ha,Ha, Oh, so that was the piece of paper that the committee was passing around, I thought they were trying to figure out who ordered the $50 side of caviar at lunch.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 04:00:42 PM
Quote from: ""Pitbull Mom""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Deborah""
::roflmao::
Kutz will have that data before the next hearing.

.....He better, it didnt make him look too good!!  I think we saw the last of

Thanks for passing it on PM !! I'll take notes the second time through and we can collaborate on what needs to be sent.

Link to the written GAO report
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08146t.pdf?source=ra (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08146t.pdf?source=ra)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 04:09:38 PM
We can add the GAO report to the Inspector General and Surgeon General's reports

 
OIG Report on State Oversight of RTCs- Inadequate
http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-02-98-00570.pdf (http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-02-98-00570.pdf)

Surgeon General's Report on RTCs
http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm (http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/surgeon_general_mental_health_ch3_treatment_interventions_residential.htm)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 04:12:51 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Kutz:  "The negative reports we recieved were not a representative sample..."

Panel:  "How many of the thousands of abuses and deaths were actually deaths?"

Kutz: " The majority were abuses"  Trying to fool the panel into believing thousands died!!

Panel:  "Do you have a number of those who died"

Kutz:  Refused to disclose the number of deaths leaving the panel to believe the parents present represented the only children who died.

Panel/ Miller:  appeared not to be pleased in Kutz lack of preperation and dodging the questions.


He said ten deaths were found in his investigation, repeatedly. He also added that no reliable reporting system is in place to accurately quantify cases of abuse, deaths, incidents. The panel was very pleased with his testimony as well as the parents and ASTART lady. The only dancing being done was by the NATSAP lady.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 04:16:42 PM
Thanks for the link... it is interesting that not one case involved a boarding school or TBS.  They were all wilderness phases or military style boot camps.  It will be interesting to see the data if/when Kutz decides to release it.  It appears the TBS's are not the issue here.

So far it parallels/ supports the data that I have been presenting.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 04:23:52 PM
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Kutz:  "The negative reports we recieved were not a representative sample..."

Panel:  "How many of the thousands of abuses and deaths were actually deaths?"

Kutz: " The majority were abuses"  Trying to fool the panel into believing thousands died!!

Panel:  "Do you have a number of those who died"

Kutz:  Refused to disclose the number of deaths leaving the panel to believe the parents present represented the only children who died.

Panel/ Miller:  appeared not to be pleased in Kutz lack of preperation and dodging the questions.

He said ten deaths were found in his investigation, repeatedly. He also added that no reliable reporting system is in place to accurately quantify cases of abuse, deaths, incidents. The panel was very pleased with his testimony as well as the parents and ASTART lady. The only dancing being done was by the NATSAP lady.


funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 04:29:26 PM
Enough of this who, we can all watch the video and see for ourselves. Kutz did very well.

What is there to see differently in my last post? It's all fact....
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: ZenAgent on October 10, 2007, 04:32:05 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.


You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 04:48:39 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.

You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.


Zen, you should choose a new avatar until you can get yourself more centered and maybe relax a little.  Try sharing your point of view instead of just attacking other people.  I realize the hearing didnt go your way, it was'nt an open hearing to everyone (albeit, only the first) but they are going to reconvene and discuss the open issues in more detail the next time.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: psy on October 10, 2007, 05:15:44 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
"I'm sorry I don't have that information in my hand right now": Hahahaha. Moss looks like someone who's walked into a viper pit and is surprised to find vipers.


LOL.. i fucking loved that part.  Jan got Pwned... Her lawyer was constantly tapping her on teh shoulder... She was visably not pleased with the outcome. Clearly, what happened was not on her agenda. I don't think she was expecting what happened (and frankly, neither was I).

And don't think I wasn't making faces in the back during her testimony.. lol...  When Miller really started letting her have it you should have seen my grin.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: psy on October 10, 2007, 05:27:44 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
One panel guy mentioned he had a few family members who went to these places and seemed pleased with their outcome.  So it looks like they recognize the abuse doesnt apply to all places.


Aah.. regular as clockwork.... TheWho posting again as guest.  Always around in time to defend NATSAP.  If i'm wrong and it's some other industry shill, I humbly apologize.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 05:30:26 PM
Hey Psy, who else was there?  Are you going to write a post recapping the hearing and your observations? How many survivors showed up?  Did you talk to the media and/or observe anyone else being interviewed?  Do you think Miller is aware that many folks were disappointed he didn't select even one token survivor to testify?  There are no guarantees there will be continued hearings and frankly the early media coverage has been fairly shitty.  Where are the survivor stories?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 10, 2007, 05:37:43 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.

You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.

Zen, you should choose a new avatar until you can get yourself more centered and maybe relax a little.  Try sharing your point of view instead of just attacking other people.  I realize the hearing didnt go your way, it was'nt an open hearing to everyone (albeit, only the first) but they are going to reconvene and discuss the open issues in more detail the next time.


Oh no, it went his way.

Zen if you haven't seen it yet take my word, it's the good stuff.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 05:40:33 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""
"I'm sorry I don't have that information in my hand right now": Hahahaha. Moss looks like someone who's walked into a viper pit and is surprised to find vipers.

LOL.. i fucking loved that part.  Jan got Pwned... Her lawyer was constantly tapping her on teh shoulder... She was visably not pleased with the outcome. Clearly, what happened was not on her agenda. I don't think she was expecting what happened (and frankly, neither was I).

And don't think I wasn't making faces in the back during her testimony.. lol...  When Miller really started letting her have it you should have seen my grin.


I didn’t expect any of that myself.  I also didn’t realize that ASTART,GAO and the panel were looking towards NATSAP to step up and be the leader here and get these programs in line, curb abuse etc.  NATSAP has some big shoes to fill fairly quickly and to start exercising some power that they didn’t realize they had.  It will be interesting to see what they do with the power they have been given… I like the references to the “Good housekeeping seal of approval
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: psy on October 10, 2007, 05:40:53 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
So it seems they are going to help NATSAP gain some teeth
If you mean false teeth, after they get kicked out...  I doubt it.  The council was collectively VERY VERY displeased with NATSAP.  One or two might have been fooled by Jan's slick lines, but Miller was certainly not buying it.  What's really funny is the apparant self-contraidctions in Jan's own testimony (pointed out by somebody sitting next to me).  Yeah...  I was naughty.  I sat in the next-to back row (right in front of the press) and kept talking about the bullshit in Jan's testimony, including how I called Jan personally and was told that they did not accept complaints. (yeah... and I'm afraid I just had to mention that to several members of the committee after it ended... Sorry, Who...)

Oh.  And Deborah... Could you write up a statement about your experiences filing complaints with NATSAP and send it to an email address i'll send you.  (sign, scan, or I can send you a physical address to mail it to).  I'm going to contact the committee to find out where I can send my statement (on the same subject).  I would just love... love.... love... to see  Jan go to jail.

Blombro (good behavior) was there, Kathy Moya, Cathy Sutton, Maia Szalavitz, Phil Elberg, and a bunch of others (though those are who I had lunch with afterwards).
Quote
and recognize them as the front runners to hold these schools feet to the fire...good for them!!!
I've got no problem with holding their feet to the fire, as long as you're going to throw the rest in when you're done.  NATSAP is nothing more than an industry PR / Lobbyist machine.
Quote
It will give them cause to boot some of these schools out of their organization....  same thing happened to JCHAO which set them up as the gold standard at the time.

It was a little embarrassing for Kutz when he was asked several times for the number of deaths in facilities and he refused to give the number, just stated thousands were abused, whats up with that?


Oh.. Pfft.. His answer wasn't straight...  LOL... what about your friend Jan who couldn't answer simple questions without her lawyers tapping her on the shoulder...  and even then managed to apparently perjure her dumb ass... (I say apparantly because she may have been wording herself so that she wasn't "techincally" lying... I'll have to check the tape)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 05:41:11 PM
Well, the hearing didn't go my way, because Ms. Moss was able to walk out of the building under her own power.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: psy on October 10, 2007, 05:46:30 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Reading TheWho's posts spawns a vision of Hitler's last days in his bunker, moving imaginary armies around while his city was annihilated above him.


That's the same analogy the method actor who played Miller Newton in Over the GW used.  That's why they changed it to "Hiller", a cross between Hilter and Miller (wasn't just to avoid getting sued).

Nah... The Who isn't freaking out yet (well.. at least not on page 3.. i'm reading)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: psy on October 10, 2007, 05:52:07 PM
Quote from: ""ChristineMarie""
Is there a recorded version somewhere that I can watch? I missed it live, couldn't get the link to work for me.

There is a recorded version.  I don't have it (I was going to record my own but the rules on camera usage meant I couldn't if I wasn't officially "press") but it exists.  If somebody can get that to me, i'll put it online.  PM me and i'll give you my address to send a copy to.  You should probably send a copy to ISAC too.  Selby likes to have hard-copies.
Title: Re: Hearings
Post by: psy on October 10, 2007, 05:53:43 PM
Quote from: ""Guest 4""
Was the lady sitting behind Ms Pinto with an ugly aggravated frown on her face Izzy?


I didnt see Scheff in the audience. I thought I saw Lichfield in the far back.


Lichfield was not there, and defiantly not in the back (where I was sitting)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 05:59:25 PM
Was the lady sitting behind Ms Pinto with an ugly aggravated frown on her face Izzy?


I didnt see Scheff in the audience. I thought I saw Lichfield in the far back.

Hey! I RESENT THAT STATEMENT! It was me, someone who is on your side.  (FICA) I can't help my ugly aggravated frown, I was sitting behind the jan moss lady and her henchmen were in front of me. :rofl:

Or maybe you were talking about one of the Natsap people who were directly behind Pinto... hmmmm
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 10, 2007, 06:27:25 PM
So, what'd I miss? :D
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: psy on October 10, 2007, 06:32:58 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Hey Psy, who else was there?  Are you going to write a post recapping the hearing and your observations? How many survivors showed up?  Did you talk to the media and/or observe anyone else being interviewed?
Yeah.  I was interviewed by CBS.
Quote
Do you think Miller is aware that many folks were disappointed he didn't select even one token survivor to testify?
I actually think he may know that, however, as strange as this seems. The decision may have been the most effective one only since this is an initial investigation and parents testimony lends more credibility to the survivors.  My initial reaction is not to bow to, or participate in prejudice.  Were it my decision, I would have decided differently based on that principle, but I won't hold it against Miller because of the sheer state of bliss I am in after seeing Jan (literally) squirm.  Maybe tomorrow, but today I'm just not in a Miller criticizing mood.
Quote
There are no guarantees there will be continued hearings and frankly the early media coverage has been fairly shitty.  Where are the survivor stories?

Actually, they did announce not only more hearings, but the previously "secret" second investigation was disclosed (findings released early '08)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 06:51:30 PM
When will your interview be aired psy????  WHo else was interviewed with you?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: ZenAgent on October 10, 2007, 06:59:20 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.

You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.

Zen, you should choose a new avatar until you can get yourself more centered and maybe relax a little.  Try sharing your point of view instead of just attacking other people.  I realize the hearing didnt go your way, it was'nt an open hearing to everyone (albeit, only the first) but they are going to reconvene and discuss the open issues in more detail the next time.


You have a lot of preconceptions about Buddhism (and religion in general) that you keep trying to get me to conform to.  Quit.

Isn't it professionally unethical for you to be posting your crap on here?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 07:06:27 PM
There's one reason NATSAP was there. Remember this letter? They presented themselves as an authority over their member programs, basically lobbying for self-regulation. Everyone expected more for that reason. NATSAP set themselves up. And tripped and fell over their arrogance and ignorance.
NATSAP was shocked and sorely disappointed that they didn't receive the warm welcome they received in Utah and Montana when they involved themselves at the legislative level.... Too few industry supporters on the committee.

http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/nat ... iller.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/natsap_letter_miller.html)
NATSAP Letter To Congressman Miller
June 1, 2005

Congressman George Miller
2205 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515

Reference: Legislation to Curb Child Abuse in Residential Treatment Programs

We appreciate the intent of the introduction of this legislation, but are concerned the excellent work being done by a large number of residential treatment programs will be impacted negatively if their interests are not considered.

The National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs ("NATSAP") was established in 1999 as a trade organization with a mission to serve as an advocate and resource for innovative schools and programs, which devote themselves to society's need for the effective care and education of struggling young people. NATSAP is now a thriving and growing organization with 142 member programs serving nearly 10,000 youth annually. Our programs are located in 31 states throughout the country and employ more than 5,000 adult staff, many with professional backgrounds and degrees, and all trained to care for troubled youth in ethical and responsible ways.  

One of the primary reasons our programs came together to form NATSAP was to [spin the illusion that our programs are more ethical than others and increase our profits] exchange ideas and come to agreement on reasonable and necessary standards of operation that would allow diversity of approach and yet provide the basic ethical position and framework of operation that would protect children and their families. Since NATSAP programs are located throughout the country and serve primarily private paying families, they fall under diverse licensure laws and regulation.

Our organization felt the need to establish a national consensus of ethics and standards that would define programs that offer quality care for children.
[Anyone who believes that should research NATSAP member programs, starting with Crater Lake http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#29235 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3880&forum=9&start=0#29235) ]
To this end we have established Ethical Principles, Principles of Good Practice, Supplemental Principles of Good Practice for Therapeutic Schools, and Standards for Behavior Support Management. We have enclosed a copy of each of these principles and standards. They can also be reviewed on our website http://www.natsap.org/overview/asp (http://www.natsap.org/overview/asp). All NATSAP programs are required to subscribe to these principles and standards as a condition of membership ["required" is too strong a word and misleading.], and we provide ongoing discussion and education about ethics and operations at our national and regional conferences.

In addition to membership in NATSAP, the majority of our members are licensed or accredited either by a state licensing board or by a national or regional accrediting agency. The national accrediting agencies include the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO), the Commission on Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities (CARF), and the Council on Accreditation (COA). We have found that there is great diversity in the structure and operations of programs throughout the country, and so it is important to allow for a variety of methods to assure that programs comply with high standards of care.

We also recognize that there are programs that are unaware or chose to ignore basic ethical standards and practice principles. We feel that such programs represent a minority of the many fine programs who serve troubled youth.  However, such programs are, of course, a risk to families, children, and to all of us who operate quality programs. NATSAP hopes to raise awareness for such programs, and try to include and educate such operators to improve their program quality and safety.

NATSAP programs, however, have legitimate concern that it would be very dangerous for either the federal or any state government to create prescriptive regulations without input and representation from our member programs. For example, our organization is quite concerned about your proposed legislation in SECTION. 303. Eligibility (b) (3) that states "In the case of each child who is a resident of the facility and whose domicile is another State, the facility meets the standards of such other State for the operation of such a facility, including any licensing standards". Given the vast array of administrative rules in different states such a clause would create an unreasonable administrative nightmare, and in effect allow the most restrictive rules in all states to dictate treatment standards for every state. [Isn't that a good thing?] We urge you to omit SECTION 303 (b) (3), and furthermore ask that you meet with representatives from our organization to discuss a variety of issues with your proposed legislation.

"We Urge you? We Urge you."

Programs that serve the private market are, of course, in need of clear operational standards, but such standards are in many cases quite different from those required for publicly funded programs in which the state has a fiduciary responsibility for both the expenditure of funds and often for the care and guardianship of the affected children. In the private pay market, parents retain the ultimate control to authorize, pay for, and select the type of treatment they feel most appropriate for their child.
It was clearly shown today that there is not enough transparency and accurate data regarding the industry for parents to make educated decisions. NATSAPs pissed that that might change.

Both parents and children in such situations still need assurance that the programs they choose and work with represent themselves honestly, and have practice standards that are within the range considered safe and appropriate by the profession. [By the 'profession'? You mean NATSAP? You mean self-regulation? I don't think anyone there would consider that a good idea.] It is in this spirit that NATSAP members have worked to create our Ethical Principles and Practice Standards.

NATSAP would like to offer our resources to work with you on ways to approach the problem of defining the proper role of government and regulation for the private pay market.  ::roflmao:: [Whadda think Miller thought when he read that?] We support an approach that does not suppress the diversity of legitimate methods  ::roflmao:: in our profession and yet protects the interest and concerns of parents and children enrolled in our programs. We would like to open a dialogue with your office in order to assure that any laws or regulations that you sponsor are crafted in a way that protects the legitimate interest of ethical programs as well as safeguarding the interest of the children and families we serve.

Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,
Jan Moss
NATSAP Executive Director
John Santa, Ph.D.
NATSAP Board President
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 07:19:40 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
You have a lot of preconceptions about Buddhism (and religion in general) that you keep trying to get me to conform to.  Quit. Isn't it professionally unethical for you to be posting your crap on here?


No, this is Who's MO. Derailing threads he'd rather parents not read. If he can engage you or anyone else is senseless debate over the price of pork in China or how autos are made in Japan, he knows the reading audience will get board and stop reading the thread, especially when he can keep it going for page after page.... all in the name of 'free speech'. More like free program advertising/propoganda.
Ignore it, or c/p it into a new thread and address it there till the cows come home.
Title: The Prez
Post by: lorrispickelmire on October 10, 2007, 07:22:02 PM
George Bush is not some dopey little pawn that let off his leash every once in a while.  The facility that I was in years ago has continued to operate because of much assistance from the Prez and others like him.  After several documented accounts of abuse he alligned himself with Roloff Evangelistic Enterprises and helped them to keep their doors open time after time.  He does not give a rats ass about protecting kids from abuse, and anyone who thinks he does is severely misinformed.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 07:24:27 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.

You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.

Zen, you should choose a new avatar until you can get yourself more centered and maybe relax a little.  Try sharing your point of view instead of just attacking other people.  I realize the hearing didnt go your way, it was'nt an open hearing to everyone (albeit, only the first) but they are going to reconvene and discuss the open issues in more detail the next time.

You have a lot of preconceptions about Buddhism (and religion in general) that you keep trying to get me to conform to.  Quit.

Isn't it professionally unethical for you to be posting your crap on here?


Just a little ribbing, dont take it to heart....as far as it being unethical to post I would agree if I was part of the industry, but I am not.  I am a parent with opinions.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 10, 2007, 07:26:51 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
You have a lot of preconceptions about Buddhism (and religion in general) that you keep trying to get me to conform to.  Quit. Isn't it professionally unethical for you to be posting your crap on here?

No, this is Who's MO. Derailing threads he'd rather parents not read. If he can engage you or anyone else is senseless debate over the price of pork in China or how autos are made in Japan, he knows the reading audience will get board and stop reading the thread, especially when he can keep it going for page after page.... all in the name of 'free speech'. More like free program advertising/propoganda.
Ignore it, or c/p it into a new thread and address it there till the cows come home.


Oh, real nice, blame me again....... I can take it.
Title: GOA
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 07:48:49 PM
Deborah

Write to the GAO and share your knowlege. You are very articulate and knowledgeable. They can use all the help available.

I called Miller's office twice this morning.  There were two deaths in WWASP that I know of. I want to know where WWASP is all of this exposing of abuse "camp"

WWASP was not mentioned.     Miller knows about WWASP.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: ZenAgent on October 10, 2007, 08:28:00 PM
NATSAP wants regulation, huh?  Then why didn't they ask Congress for it a long time ago?  They had to be dragged in and immediately took a defensive position.
Title: Re: The Prez
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 08:39:15 PM
Quote from: ""lorrispickelmire""
George Bush is not some dopey little pawn that let off his leash every once in a while.  The facility that I was in years ago has continued to operate because of much assistance from the Prez and others like him.  After several documented accounts of abuse he alligned himself with Roloff Evangelistic Enterprises and helped them to keep their doors open time after time.  He does not give a rats ass about protecting kids from abuse, and anyone who thinks he does is severely misinformed.


I'm surprised that Bush senior never sent George W to a program to help him deal with his cocaine habit.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 08:43:20 PM
Quote
Jan Moss, executive director of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs, a trade group, said many kids have been helped by residential treatment programs.

She said the industry was taking steps to improve. "Clearly we still have a very long way to go," she said.


That is a pretty loud and clear admission of just how unethical and ineffective this industry is.

What's the deal on Jan Moss (Spring Ridge Academy) anyway? She divulged that her nephew was abused in an offshore program. Which WWASP program was it?
Title: Re: The Prez
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 08:51:56 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I'm surprised that Bush senior never sent George W to a program to help him deal with his cocaine habit.


He did. We call it "The White House".
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Che Gookin on October 10, 2007, 09:31:41 PM
Yes no doubt George Miller has ensured that a new era of regulation, unenforcable by the US government, will sweep across the land.

YAY....

Someone give me a ring when the push for a Youth Civil Rights Ammendment is getting proposed.

Overall nice to see Natsap pimp slapped even if it will waste money, time, and resources. Now we can all look forward to rescueing more children from these licensed regulated facilities in the future.

bottom line:

We at least will get some good material to use against Nutsack for the future.

Perhaps we may be able to use as leverage against programmes to fight them on an economic basis.

George Miller just scored a bunch of votes.. obviously his mission was accomplished.
Title: Re: The Prez
Post by: Antigen on October 10, 2007, 09:35:51 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I'm surprised that Bush senior never sent George W to a program to help him deal with his cocaine habit.


What makes you think they didn't? I've always been suspicious of that little stint "volunteering" to council inner city kids in Texas back in the, what, late `70's or early `80's?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 09:46:14 PM
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
Someone give me a ring when the push for a Youth Civil Rights Ammendment is getting proposed.

Why don't you give Miller a ring and suggest it? He and/or others mentioned several times about this being a Civil/Human Rights issue.

Quote
George Miller just scored a bunch of votes.. obviously his mission was accomplished.


Do you really think he would have worked on this for 20 some years for votes? Did you watch the hearing?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 10, 2007, 09:49:40 PM
Anyone want to Make 10/10 a holiday?

Or a party day?  :D

I finally saw the report, and I saw the shit on the evening news. I'm astonished. I had no fucking wild dream that this would make the evening fucking news.

We've finally come to the point that it is a matter of when, not if anymore. We have a lot of work ahead of us but their days are numbered. Children are probably already coming home and more are on the way.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex ... affil=wjxx (http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=3711848&affil=wjxx) <- 4min report on it.

I feel so relieved... its like I can sleep again. Like I could drop this forever and know it will turn out okay, even though there is still a lot I can and should do to help, that is a relief.

Psy, hit me up in YIM or AIM btw, we need to talk.

TEN-TEN FOR THE WIN.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2007, 10:49:40 PM
here's the link for those who missed the hearing....


http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia/edwor ... 101007.asx (http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia/edwork/fc/fc101007.asx)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 10:56:01 PM
March 16, 2007

Jan Moss, NATSAP Executive Director, met with Denise Forte, Director of Education Policy, and Michael Zola, Chief Investigative Counsel on February 25, 2007. Ms. Forte is leading the research on Representative George Miller's bill, H.R. 1738. Joining Ms. Moss were Mark Covall, Executive Director of the National Association of Psychiatric Health Services (NAPHS) and Michael Barnes, Esq. DCBA Law. The purpose of the meeting was to present the recommendations of NATSAP and NAPHS to H.R. 1738.

Jan Moss and Michael Barnes also met with several of the staff of the new Education Committee and Healthy Families Sub-Committee members to introduce NATSAP and their work with Representative Miller's staff on his legislation.

NATSAP remains committed to offering the assistance of their organization and the assistance of the professionals in their membership to Governors, Legislators, and other organizations interested in the health and mental health of young people.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 10, 2007, 11:17:30 PM
And another....

The following is a letter from NATSAP to Shay Bilchik, President and CEO, Child Welfare League of America, 440 First Street NW, Washington, DC 20001.

Dear Mr. Bilchik,

The National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs and our members are concerned about your letter of August 11, 2005 to the Members of Congress regarding therapeutic boarding schools. While we appreciate the intent of your letter, we are concerned of the impact it may have on those programs and schools who are doing excellent work.

Your letter to the editor of the Boston Globe on “brat camps
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Oz girl on October 11, 2007, 04:05:04 AM
if this sounds like a stupid question I apologize but what is the point of these hearings. is it to give the relevant stakeholders their "day in court" or to inform congress before a congressman comes up with a bill? What outcome is expected?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Karass on October 11, 2007, 05:09:05 AM
If the link isn't working, you can find a torrent file and get the full video at:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/934543 (http://www.mininova.org/tor/934543)

File size is 276 MB
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 11, 2007, 07:17:31 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
if this sounds like a stupid question I apologize but what is the point of these hearings. is it to give the relevant stakeholders their "day in court" or to inform congress before a congressman comes up with a bill? What outcome is expected?


To determine if Federal legislation is needed and what that might look like. For the GAO to present the results of their investigation. The three parents who testified had experiences with 3 of the 10 programs that were highlighted in the report.  All indicators were that federal legislation is needed.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Antigen on October 11, 2007, 11:14:33 AM
Quote from: ""Karass""
If the link isn't working, you can find a torrent file and get the full video at:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/934543 (http://www.mininova.org/tor/934543)

File size is 276 MB


I'm trying this again. First time failed. Couldn't run the ABC news segment either. Now THAT I REALLY could use!
Title: Links to news stories about the GAO hearings re boot camps
Post by: AuntieEm on October 11, 2007, 11:24:15 AM
To recap:

The General Accounting Office (GAO), the US government's watchdog group, submitted a report to Congress this week. A hearing was held before the House Committee on Education and Labor, and representatives of the troubled teen industry testified, as did three parents whose children died in these programs.  

I will post a link to the PDF of the GAO report separately.

Here are some links:
Washington Post
GAO: Poor Staffing Cited in Youths' Deaths at 'Boot Camp'
http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/10/AR2007101000825.html
USA Today
GAO finds abuses at 'tough love' camps for troubled kids
http://http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-10-boot-camps_N.htm
Look for the video there also.

Thanks to parents Bob Bacon, Cynthia Harvey and Paul Lewis for testifying; to Gregory Kurtz for the report; and to Rep. George Miller (D-CA), the chair of the committee, for calling these hearings.

Notable quotes (USA Today):
Quote
"If you walked in partway through my presentation, you might have assumed I was talking about human rights violations in a Third World country," said Gregory Kutz, a GAO investigator.

Quote
Rep. Buck McKeon, the ranking Republican, said he does not like to expand the role of the federal government, "but there are some times when it has to happen."

Quote
Jan Moss, executive director of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs, said the industry wants state regulation. Her group represents 180 facilities that serve 16,000 children.

"Among our goals is the complete elimination of the abuses and neglectful practices we have heard about today," she said. "Clearly, we have a long way to go."


Notice that Moss wants state regulation, not federal. They want the kind of weak legislation passed in Montana in the last couple years that allows a board of industry insiders to regulate members of their own industry.

Please contact your members of Congress to advocate for federal oversight of programs.


AuntieEm
Title: Link to PDF of full GAO report
Post by: AuntieEm on October 11, 2007, 11:28:01 AM
Here's the link to the PDF of the full GAO report:

RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT PROGRAMS
Concerns Regarding Abuse and Death in Certain Programs for Troubled
Youth

http://http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/gao_report_troubled_youth_101007.pdf


AuntieEm
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2007, 11:57:54 AM
Favorite Quote by Congressman Miller:
He asked Ms. Moss, "What the hell do you (Natsap) do?"
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2007, 12:39:55 PM
Yup, you can't defend against what you're defending FOR. It doesn't play. This is why Mosscunt couldn't say much of anything beyond generalities and empty nonsense. NATSAP is trying to tread water with thirty-pound blocks chained to its ankles.

And if they ever, in a fit of delusion that they're actually a regulatory organization- try to take those off, to remove the worst of the worst, the backlash will end up destroying them, programmie against programmie.

It's like asking the Iranians to do something about the insane fundamentalists. The insane fundamentalists run the place. "Vulpine Protective Services, Inc? Yeah, there's foxes in my henhouse.. and some of them are wearing your uniforms..."
Title: Re: Links to news stories about the GAO hearings re boot cam
Post by: Deborah on October 11, 2007, 02:00:55 PM
Quote from: ""AuntieEm""
Notice that Moss wants state regulation, not federal. They want the kind of weak legislation passed in Montana in the last couple years that allows a board of industry insiders to regulate members of their own industry.


Yes, they would like to participate in creating regs for other states, as they did in Utah and Montana.

Movin to Montana soon.........
Gonna be an RTC tycoon..........
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2007, 02:55:38 PM
Didn't Ken Stettler help in some way with that Montana legislation?  I thought I read that in the Utah news coverage or somewhere.

Question: How long has Ken Stettler been in charge of the licensing dept. in Utah?

Sure would have loved to see him interviewed by the committee, regarding the deaths in wilderness programs that occured on his watch, as well as the current situation with Brendan Blum who died while in the care of a program in Utah.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 11, 2007, 03:44:22 PM
Yeh, I'd like to see him grilled about this:

http://web.outsideonline.com/magazine/1 ... _deth.html (http://web.outsideonline.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html)
Stettler, a devoted Mormon, knew Jaggar and Henry well and says that he trusted them, as fellow Saints, implicitly. After Bacon's death, Stettler's confidence in Jaggar and Henry remained steadfast. He quickly cleared North Star of any wrongdoing and allowed the program to stay in business-- which it did for six months, until the state of Utah filed criminal charges in October 1994.


hs.utah.gov
May 29, 2002 Carol Sisco (801) 538-3991
Ken Stettler (801) 538-4235
Ken Stettler Named Licensing Director
Ken Stettler has been named director of the Office of Licensing in the Department of Human Services.
A 25-year DHS employee, Stettler formerly worked in the Division of YouthCorrections. "I want to make the focus of the office more customer friendly, both for the public and the providers we license," Stettler said.
Stettler has been involved in licensing issues for many years, first in Youth Corrections and later when the Office of Licensing was created.
"My primary interest in licensing came from the years I spent there where I realized the importance the office has in protecting all Human Services clients," Stettler said. "A lot of children come to Utah for treatment from other states and sometimes our office is the only agency regulating those providers."
Stettler worked on the initial licensing of youth wilderness programs in Utah and was responsible for licensing all youth programs statewide from 1990 until 1995.
Stettler has a master's degree in management and youth leadership and a bachelor's degree in therapeutic recreation, both from Brigham Young University.
He replaces Reta Oram who retired in April.

Following Ian August's death at Skyline Journey- one of the cases highlighted in the GAO report...

Stettler is making a case for shutting down SJ, which he says is critical because there has to be a consequence for Ian?s death. "I don't feel like we have a strong enough guarantee that nothing's going to happen again. If we don't level a consequence in this case it sends a message to other programs that the Off of Licensing is nothing. They need to know there are rules and there are consequences for violating those rules, especially when the violations result in a similar thing like this death."

What a sham. Skyline's license was revoked and they simply reopened under a new name- Distant Drums. What message does that send? Some consequence.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 11, 2007, 03:51:12 PM
Another interesting tidbit that wasn't exposed in the hearing, perhaps it's in the written report....

Sagewalk employed Aaron Bacon's murderer, Eric Henry during a 9 month diversion agreement following Bacon's death. Then went on to Obsidian Trails where another death occured.
http://www.contac.org/contaclibrary/tragedy28.htm (http://www.contac.org/contaclibrary/tragedy28.htm)

Obsidian Trails- another program investigated in the GAO report.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2007, 06:00:51 PM
Try this one instead:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/935431 (http://www.mininova.org/tor/935431)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: AuntieEm on October 11, 2007, 06:12:14 PM
Try this archive of the hearing at the US House site:

http://http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml

AuntieEm
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Oz girl on October 11, 2007, 07:10:56 PM
i assume that it is still early days but one thing that concerned me after now watching the full 2 hrs is that the fact that the idea of tough love or a forced "therapeutic" environment is inherently a bad idea was not really focused on. Nor was the idea of incarceration without due process.

As important as it is to highlight the deaths in wilderness, there are many kids who are OK physically and even get good medical treatment but who are devistated by the process or who are surprisingly resilient but have the most miserable couple of years of their young lives. While legislation is limited in that it can only really set about bare minimum requirements and specific penalties for breaching such rules, as opposed to getting rid of programs it would still be good to focus more on this. Natsap would then have a much harder time with their "were providing options to parents" bullshit. It also may force legislators to look at the zero tolerance culture that they have played a part in creating.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 11, 2007, 10:47:12 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
i assume that it is still early days but one thing that concerned me after now watching the full 2 hrs is that the fact that the idea of tough love or a forced "therapeutic" environment is inherently a bad idea was not really focused on.

Miller stated passionately that that the notion of using nature to abuse in the name of therapy (paraphrasing) was "Outrageous". He also stated that he advocates for treatment near home, and is opposed to kids crossing state lines. How he would mandate this, remains to be seen. But, it could put a significant dent in the industry cash flow. Thanks to the industry, the ICPC, which was designed to protect against unnecessary out-of-state placements (but was never fully enforced), no longer applies to the "parent choice" industry.  

Quote
Nor was the idea of incarceration without due process.

That is not particularly something you want to present as the key issue in this country, one of what, two countries, that didn't sign the UN Declaration on Children's Rights. Although, Human Rights Issue was mentioned at least twice, you have to present such "radical" ideas slowly. McCarthy also suggested the possibility of a Parents Bill of Rights.

Quote
It also may force legislators to look at the zero tolerance culture that they have played a part in creating.


Not a chance, imho.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2007, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
He also stated that he advocates for treatment near home, and is opposed to kids crossing state lines. How he would mandate this, remains to be seen. But, it could put a significant dent in the industry cash flow.


A huge dent. Seems like some programs specifically take only kids from out of state. Much fewer legal complications that way.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: felice on October 11, 2007, 11:08:25 PM
I liked Mr. Kildee,
especially when he suggested that NATSAP should be
"Part of the solution, not the problem" :D
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Oz girl on October 12, 2007, 06:53:32 AM
Yeah miller did touch on these issues briefly and I was glad that he mentioned the home state thing. i note his own state has some good rules here. But i suppose my concern is that the actual "therapies" that the boarding schools use may be over looked. Particularly the less sensational but equally punishing ones (peer pressure, mail censoring, no holidays
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: TheWho on October 12, 2007, 09:38:31 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Deborah""
He also stated that he advocates for treatment near home, and is opposed to kids crossing state lines. How he would mandate this, remains to be seen. But, it could put a significant dent in the industry cash flow.

A huge dent. Seems like some programs specifically take only kids from out of state. Much fewer legal complications that way.


The mother of Erica (one of the woman who lost a child) also said that kids shouldn’t be sent too far from home.  All the crossing over state lines laws seems to be an issue.

My Daughter was out of state for wilderness but was closer to home for the TBS we chose.  I would agree that the closer the school you chose the better but sometimes the better places are further away so it could be a tough call choosing between a lower quality school because of its location.

These are definitely issues that should be discussed with parents in the early phases of placement.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: stoodoodog on October 12, 2007, 10:12:08 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Deborah""
He also stated that he advocates for treatment near home, and is opposed to kids crossing state lines. How he would mandate this, remains to be seen. But, it could put a significant dent in the industry cash flow.

A huge dent. Seems like some programs specifically take only kids from out of state. Much fewer legal complications that way.


It was definitely a thorn in the side of PV to have a child whose parent was against the program living close enough to be able to drive out onto the Peninsula and see enough odd goings on to raise many, MANY red flags...
People, many of them local professionals (MD's, PhD's, LCSW's, MSW's) who should know more about PV kept telling me "at least when she is at PV you will get to see her. I did not get to see her or talk to her for the better part of the time she was sitting on her bed 24/7 in the lockdown "assessment"  unit. After her restraint, (described on the facility questions and answers thread around Page 6) PV issued me a list of conditions I would have to follow if I wanted to have any contact with her. I followed all of the conditions for several months and was still not allowed ANY contact with her except through heavily censored mail.
Title: Lack of competent care and loss of control
Post by: AuntieEm on October 12, 2007, 10:59:04 AM
I am not sure that controlling out-of-state placement provides an effective protection. I mean, if I live in Idaho, then I have to place my child in Idaho, and it's hello BCA and NWA and Arbeit macht frei.

As I've said before, I think licensing and accreditation are better than nothing, but they provide false reassurance to parents considering schools. It would be interesting to know how the schools are spinning the hearings and the GAO report. ("Oh, yes, well those other schools are bad, but we're licensed and accredited.") IMHO, these schools are less accountable for their treatment of children than are carnys.

Aren't the belly button issues lack of truly competent/therapeutic care, and loss of liberty/control? (Maybe others, too, you tell me.)

As Oz Girl said,
Quote
i assume that it is still early days but one thing that concerned me after now watching the full 2 hrs is that the fact that the idea of tough love or a forced "therapeutic" environment is inherently a bad idea was not really focused on. Nor was the idea of incarceration without due process.

As important as it is to highlight the deaths in wilderness, there are many kids who are OK physically and even get good medical treatment but who are devistated by the process or who are surprisingly resilient but have the most miserable couple of years of their young lives. While legislation is limited in that it can only really set about bare minimum requirements and specific penalties for breaching such rules, as opposed to getting rid of programs it would still be good to focus more on this.


For me the aspect of all this that makes my blood run backwards is the incarceration without due process. If a parent decided to lock a child in their house and home school them, couldn't he or she be charged with child maltreatment? In my state, I think yes.


AuntieEm
Title: Re: Lack of competent care and loss of control
Post by: Deborah on October 12, 2007, 11:34:01 AM
Quote from: ""AuntieEm""
As I've said before, I think licensing and accreditation are better than nothing, but they provide false reassurance to parents considering schools. It would be interesting to know how the schools are spinning the hearings and the GAO report. ("Oh, yes, well those other schools are bad, but we're licensed and accredited.") IMHO, these schools are less accountable for their treatment of children than are carnys.

Precisely why the GAO needs to hear the reality of abuse in currently licensed facilities. Anyone whose child was abuse, who experienced fraud/deception with a licensed/accredited program needs to send that information to the GAO, particularly if it was a NATSAP program.

Quote
For me the aspect of all this that makes my blood run backwards is the incarceration without due process. If a parent decided to lock a child in their house and home school them, couldn't he or she be charged with child maltreatment? In my state, I think yes.


Such cases have been posted on Fornits.
It's already understood in the mental health field that you are not allowed to sever contact between parent and child without a court order. It must be proven that the relationship is detrimental to the child. The blanket policy in the industry carried over from the CEDU method needs to be highlighted and brougth to the GAOs attention.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 12, 2007, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
Couldn't run the ABC news segment either. Now THAT I REALLY could use!


If the abc.com link doesn't work, you can download the ABC News story here:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/936741 (http://www.mininova.org/tor/936741)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: exhausted on October 12, 2007, 03:06:00 PM
They took it all off...propoganda rules in USA

fuck your justice system
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: psy on October 12, 2007, 03:30:10 PM
Quote from: ""exhausted""
They took it all off...propoganda rules in USA

fuck your justice system
What justice system?  You have to have justice somewhere to have a justice system.

If anything does disappear, just let me know.  We can mirror it on Fornits.  How to get it to me?  Post a torrent on thepiratebay.org then let me know and i'll download it...  Alternatively, you could Yim/aim me and send it to me directly.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: psy on October 12, 2007, 03:35:01 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
Couldn't run the ABC news segment either. Now THAT I REALLY could use!

If the abc.com link doesn't work, you can download the ABC News story here:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/936741 (http://www.mininova.org/tor/936741)


please seed.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 12, 2007, 03:36:33 PM
That ABC story(Good Morning America) rocked - very powerful!
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Nihilanthic on October 12, 2007, 06:53:21 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
Couldn't run the ABC news segment either. Now THAT I REALLY could use!

If the abc.com link doesn't work, you can download the ABC News story here:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/936741 (http://www.mininova.org/tor/936741)

please seed.


Done.

I'll see if I can get some help...
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: hanzomon4 on October 12, 2007, 07:13:30 PM
Quote from: ""exhausted""
They took it all off...propoganda rules in USA

fuck your justice system


Who ABC?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: BuzzKill on October 12, 2007, 08:33:20 PM
Looks like the GAO hearing has triggered interest from at least one
 British newspaper:
 
 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 641635.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2641635.ece)


Print this page

From The Times
October 12, 2007
Torture, starvation and death: how American boot camps abuse boys

Image :1 of 4
Tim Reid in Washington
Thousands of teenagers sent to American boot camps have suffered horrific abuse and some have paid with their lives, according to a shocking new report by the US Congress.

The report, presented with harrowing testimony from parents of three teenagers who died at boot camps, comes as a Florida manslaughter trial opened into the death of Martin Lee Anderson, 14. He was filmed being beaten by camp guards minutes before he died, footage seen not only inside the courtroom but on television screens across America.

The Government Accountability Office, the US Congress investigative arm, identified 1,619 incidents of child abuse in 33 states in 2005. It selected ten deaths since 1990 for special investigation in boot camps and “wilderness programmes
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: exhausted on October 13, 2007, 01:39:03 PM
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""
Looks like the GAO hearing has triggered interest from at least one
 British newspaper:
Don't applaud them yet

I have just this second watched the news and it is reported he died from a 'blood disorder' meh, wankers

Staff in boot camp case walk free  
By Vincent Dowd
BBC News, Washington  


 
Video footage showed Martin Anderson being beaten
Eight defendants have been acquitted of manslaughter in the case of a teenager who died after being punched and kicked at a Florida boot camp.
Martin Lee Anderson, 14, died a day after the beating was administered by guards at the camp in January 2006.

A jury took only 90 minutes to decide the seven instructors and one nurse at the Bay County boot camp in north-west Florida were not guilty of his death.

Video tape shows the teenager being hit and dragged about by the guards.

The video was recorded on the camp surveillance system.

 
 You kill a dog, you go to jail - you kill a little black boy and nothing happens

But giving testimony during the trial, two doctors told the court the death was attributable to an undiagnosed blood disorder which the instructors could not have known about.

The defendants testified they had not attacked Anderson, but had followed the rules of the camp, designed to instil discipline into juveniles sent there.

They said they had suspected Anderson of faking illness to avoid exercise.

Camp closures

Martin Lee Anderson's death has already led to the resignation of the head of Florida's Department of Law Enforcement and all juvenile boot camps in the state have since been closed.

The family are to receive $5m to settle civil claims.

Speaking after the not guilty verdict, the family's lawyer told journalists: "You kill a dog, you go to jail - you kill a little black boy and nothing happens."

Had the all-white jury found the eight defendants guilty, they could have faced up to 30 years in jail.
Title: here w ego again
Post by: Deprogrammed on October 13, 2007, 04:30:54 PM
Fighting, maligning, bickering, basically accomplishing nothing.
Why?
What is this accomplishing? Hatred among survivors is all I see it accomplishing.
This is the time we should all be banding together trying to organize and accomplish some goals before the next hearing comes up in february.
Wow!
-DP


Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.

You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.

Zen, you should choose a new avatar until you can get yourself more centered and maybe relax a little.  Try sharing your point of view instead of just attacking other people.  I realize the hearing didnt go your way, it was'nt an open hearing to everyone (albeit, only the first) but they are going to reconvene and discuss the open issues in more detail the next time.
Title: Re: here w ego again
Post by: ZenAgent on October 13, 2007, 08:04:45 PM
Quote from: ""Deprogrammed""
Fighting, maligning, bickering, basically accomplishing nothing.
Why?
What is this accomplishing? Hatred among survivors is all I see it accomplishing.
This is the time we should all be banding together trying to organize and accomplish some goals before the next hearing comes up in february.
Wow!
-DP


Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.

You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.

Zen, you should choose a new avatar until you can get yourself more centered and maybe relax a little.  Try sharing your point of view instead of just attacking other people.  I realize the hearing didnt go your way, it was'nt an open hearing to everyone (albeit, only the first) but they are going to reconvene and discuss the open issues in more detail the next time.

Well, this is a scaled down version of what will happen when NATSAP (represented here by staunch supporter and my good friend TheWho) and the survivors (represented in your quoted example by myself).

It isn't "fighting", especially considering the example you posted.  That's like George Miller saying during the hearing "Look, parents, NATSAP...you both have common interests, stop fighting,"  The survivors are united, but this forum is open to all opinions.

TheWho is not a program survivor, he's a supporter of some programs, to be fair.  He's a staunch supporter of NATSAP and giving that self-regulating body some "teeth".  
Quote from: ""TheWho""

I am interested in helping parents make the right choice for their children and cut thru some of this bias and bs here.  People who clog up this forum with personal vendettas against programs are only serving themselves and their time and effort does not benefit any of the kids...

Fornits is the most open forum I have ever seen.


That's his position, which seems to be much like your own, and he's free to post it on Fornits because it is indeed open.

Most of us disagree with TheWho.

He's my friend, though, as long as he buys a Lamborghini for me like he promised.  Right, D?  My MAN!  If you can't beat 'em, bribe 'em!

No fighting on CAFETY at the moment, it's quiet and calm.  There's an option, if discord is upsetting you.  I hope not, and we do get things accomplished, you can't always see what's been done.  Ignore the squabbles.
Title: Re: here w ego again
Post by: Deprogrammed on October 14, 2007, 05:54:24 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""Deprogrammed""
Fighting, maligning, bickering, basically accomplishing nothing.
Why?
What is this accomplishing? Hatred among survivors is all I see it accomplishing.
This is the time we should all be banding together trying to organize and accomplish some goals before the next hearing comes up in february.
Wow!
-DP


Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.

You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.

Zen, you should choose a new avatar until you can get yourself more centered and maybe relax a little.  Try sharing your point of view instead of just attacking other people.  I realize the hearing didnt go your way, it was'nt an open hearing to everyone (albeit, only the first) but they are going to reconvene and discuss the open issues in more detail the next time.

Well, this is a scaled down version of what will happen when NATSAP (represented here by staunch supporter and my good friend TheWho) and the survivors (represented in your quoted example by myself).

It isn't "fighting", especially considering the example you posted.  That's like George Miller saying during the hearing "Look, parents, NATSAP...you both have common interests, stop fighting,"  The survivors are united, but this forum is open to all opinions.

TheWho is not a program survivor, he's a supporter of some programs, to be fair.  He's a staunch supporter of NATSAP and giving that self-regulating body some "teeth".  
Quote from: ""TheWho""

I am interested in helping parents make the right choice for their children and cut thru some of this bias and bs here.  People who clog up this forum with personal vendettas against programs are only serving themselves and their time and effort does not benefit any of the kids...

Fornits is the most open forum I have ever seen.

That's his position, which seems to be much like your own, and he's free to post it on Fornits because it is indeed open.[/b]

Hey Zen,
 First of all let me please correct you on one thing. I am a survivor of Kids helping Kids ( a straight incorporated direct descendant program in Ohio now, KY when I was in there) .
Also, maybe I shouldve made myself more clear in my previous post.
I do not agree with "The Who" (excluding the rock band, as I love them). I just think that ye are fighting in the wrong place possibly.
I mean to say, take action aside from fornits. There was just this hearing that has happened, write to the Gao, help to provide your signed testimony. I am not saying either that ye have not taken any action outside of here, as I do not know you at all.
I watched the NATSAP lady( and i use that term very loosely) lie and stall to quickly come up with empty shelled answers to the hearings committee members to answer to them about her part of her and her organizations accountibility in these matters.
on the other hand if ye have not tried to reach out other than on this website or other websites now would be the time. There is going to be another hearing coming in Feb. 2008 to the best of my own understanding.
Please do not accuse me of siding with the who or any other pro-program entity as I do not and I will not.
I was abused in the place I was in along with also being sexually abused and the program director as well as the staff never reporting it to the police.
Enough of me defending my position, because when it all comes down in the end, and there will someday be an end to this madness, there will be historical record of me fighting for every childs rights in America , and historical record of me fighting against any form of child abuse, but epecially of this particular variety.
Zen, again, I am sorry if I have offended you in some way, I just feel it is easy to be side- tracked by these trolls around here, when we could be out aiding in the fightagainst these places providing the right people with information.
Again, I wish I would have elaborated more in my previous post, and made it more clear what I meant. I regreat not doing that now, but that is the only thing about it that I do regret.

sincerely,
-DP

Most of us disagree with TheWho.

He's my friend, though, as long as he buys a Lamborghini for me like he promised.  Right, D?  My MAN!  If you can't beat 'em, bribe 'em!

No fighting on CAFETY at the moment, it's quiet and calm.  There's an option, if discord is upsetting you.  I hope not, and we do get things accomplished, you can't always see what's been done.  Ignore the squabbles.
Title: Re: here w ego again
Post by: ZenAgent on October 14, 2007, 06:54:45 PM
Quote from: ""Deprogrammed""

Hey Zen,
 First of all let me please correct you on one thing. I am a survivor of Kids helping Kids ( a straight incorporated direct descendant program in Ohio now, KY when I was in there) .
Also, maybe I shouldve made myself more clear in my previous post.
I do not agree with "The Who" (excluding the rock band, as I love them). I just think that ye are fighting in the wrong place possibly.
I mean to say, take action aside from fornits. There was just this hearing that has happened, write to the Gao, help to provide your signed testimony. I am not saying either that ye have not taken any action outside of here, as I do not know you at all.
I watched the NATSAP lady( and i use that term very loosely) lie and stall to quickly come up with empty shelled answers to the hearings committee members to answer to them about her part of her and her organizations accountibility in these matters.
on the other hand if ye have not tried to reach out other than on this website or other websites now would be the time. There is going to be another hearing coming in Feb. 2008 to the best of my own understanding.
Please do not accuse me of siding with the who or any other pro-program entity as I do not and I will not.
I was abused in the place I was in along with also being sexually abused and the program director as well as the staff never reporting it to the police.
Enough of me defending my position, because when it all comes down in the end, and there will someday be an end to this madness, there will be historical record of me fighting for every childs rights in America , and historical record of me fighting against any form of child abuse, but epecially of this particular variety.
Zen, again, I am sorry if I have offended you in some way, I just feel it is easy to be side- tracked by these trolls around here, when we could be out aiding in the fightagainst these places providing the right people with information.
Again, I wish I would have elaborated more in my previous post, and made it more clear what I meant. I regreat not doing that now, but that is the only thing about it that I do regret.

sincerely,
-DP

Most of us disagree with TheWho.



DP, I didn't mean to come off scrappy to you, and I didn't elaborate enough either.   I meant you shared the sentiment of cutting through the BS and bias.  I've seen your posts on the Straight thread, I know you're a survivor and I wasn't trying to imply you were a tourist.

I wasn't offended - PV showed me what offensive really is, anything else is a pale imitation.  To be honest, I thought you were someone from another group's forum where some heated discussion occurred not long ago.  I kept my comments public and was branded crude and immature by the other side of the debate.  All the while, they were sending PM's and emails that would have made a whore blush.

No, I'm with you, DP.  Mixing it up with TheWho is an exercise in tail-chasing, I know, and you're absolutely right, it's best not to engage in barb-shooting.  I wish he would change his name, I love the band, too.  I hate the association he's creating.  Pete Townshend would loathe "programming" teens through BM, if he isn't aware of the shit.  Teen angst can be a creative force, not a pop psycho-babble "mental illness" like ODD.

I'm with you, let there be solidarity.  This is too important a time to be expending energy on trolls.

At one time, derailing a train was a capital offense.  It's a shame we can't apply it to trolls hell-bent on derailing a thread.  I take the pledge to not engage the trolls in flame wars.  This probably means TheWho won't buy me a Lamborghini, that was contingent on me being his groveling bitch.  Like I would...

Again, there was misunderstanding and I apologize.  I got your back, and we got a united front.
Title: Re: here w ego again
Post by: Deprogrammed on October 14, 2007, 07:20:58 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""Deprogrammed""

Hey Zen,
 First of all let me please correct you on one thing. I am a survivor of Kids helping Kids ( a straight incorporated direct descendant program in Ohio now, KY when I was in there) .
Also, maybe I shouldve made myself more clear in my previous post.
I do not agree with "The Who" (excluding the rock band, as I love them). I just think that ye are fighting in the wrong place possibly.
I mean to say, take action aside from fornits. There was just this hearing that has happened, write to the Gao, help to provide your signed testimony. I am not saying either that ye have not taken any action outside of here, as I do not know you at all.
I watched the NATSAP lady( and i use that term very loosely) lie and stall to quickly come up with empty shelled answers to the hearings committee members to answer to them about her part of her and her organizations accountibility in these matters.
on the other hand if ye have not tried to reach out other than on this website or other websites now would be the time. There is going to be another hearing coming in Feb. 2008 to the best of my own understanding.
Please do not accuse me of siding with the who or any other pro-program entity as I do not and I will not.
I was abused in the place I was in along with also being sexually abused and the program director as well as the staff never reporting it to the police.
Enough of me defending my position, because when it all comes down in the end, and there will someday be an end to this madness, there will be historical record of me fighting for every childs rights in America , and historical record of me fighting against any form of child abuse, but epecially of this particular variety.
Zen, again, I am sorry if I have offended you in some way, I just feel it is easy to be side- tracked by these trolls around here, when we could be out aiding in the fightagainst these places providing the right people with information.
Again, I wish I would have elaborated more in my previous post, and made it more clear what I meant. I regreat not doing that now, but that is the only thing about it that I do regret.

sincerely,
-DP

Most of us disagree with TheWho.


DP, I didn't mean to come off scrappy to you, and I didn't elaborate enough either.   I meant you shared the sentiment of cutting through the BS and bias.  I've seen your posts on the Straight thread, I know you're a survivor and I wasn't trying to imply you were a tourist.

I wasn't offended - PV showed me what offensive really is, anything else is a pale imitation.  To be honest, I thought you were someone from another group's forum where some heated discussion occurred not long ago.  I kept my comments public and was branded crude and immature by the other side of the debate.  All the while, they were sending PM's and emails that would have made a whore blush.

No, I'm with you, DP.  Mixing it up with TheWho is an exercise in tail-chasing, I know, and you're absolutely right, it's best not to engage in barb-shooting.  I wish he would change his name, I love the band, too.  I hate the association he's creating.  Pete Townshend would loathe "programming" teens through BM, if he isn't aware of the shit.  Teen angst can be a creative force, not a pop psycho-babble "mental illness" like ODD.

I'm with you, let there be solidarity.  This is too important a time to be expending energy on trolls.

At one time, derailing a train was a capital offense.  It's a shame we can't apply it to trolls hell-bent on derailing a thread.  I take the pledge to not engage the trolls in flame wars.  This probably means TheWho won't buy me a Lamborghini, that was contingent on me being his groveling bitch.  Like I would...

Again, there was misunderstanding and I apologize.  I got your back, and we got a united front.


Rock on!
I appreciate everything that ye just said to me, and will also do my best to elaborate more clearly in the future.

"Eminience Front"...lol :)

Warm regards,
-DP
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: ZenAgent on October 14, 2007, 07:48:06 PM
LOL...I told a certain troll recently the GAO hearings were beginning to remind me of "The Punk and the Godfather" - survivors confronting the rich, fat tormentors.  Next time, I hope survivors get to speak directly.
Title: :)
Post by: Deprogrammed on October 14, 2007, 08:17:02 PM
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
LOL...I told a certain troll recently the GAO hearings were beginning to remind me of "The Punk and the Godfather" - survivors confronting the rich, fat tormentors.  Next time, I hope survivors get to speak directly.

LOL! :rofl:
Me too
-DP
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 16, 2007, 01:56:14 PM
Could someone who has the skill embed the hearing in a new thread called Watch GAO Hearing, or some such, please.
Some people haven't been able to view it with either link.
Windows media never opens.
Title: NY Times Editorial about the GAO report
Post by: AuntieEm on October 16, 2007, 02:12:18 PM
New York Times
October 16, 2007
Editorial

When ‘Tough Love’ Is Too Tough

Parents who come to wit’s end with troubled teenagers sometimes enroll them in residential treatment programs — so-called boot camps or wilderness camps — that offer challenging activities, like hiking and climbing, and military-style discipline that is supposed to help set youngsters straight. Juvenile-justice researchers have long shown that the camps are less effective at curbing delinquency than boosters claim. Now an alarming study by the Government Accountability Office shows that the “tough love
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: exhausted on October 16, 2007, 02:16:18 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Could someone who has the skill embed the hearing in a new thread called Watch GAO Hearing, or some such, please.
Some people haven't been able to view it with either link.
Windows media never opens.
I've embedded what i can fid Deborah, as stated, I'l update as more becomes available, is early days yet
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 16, 2007, 03:16:18 PM
Quote from: ""exhausted""
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Could someone who has the skill embed the hearing in a new thread called Watch GAO Hearing, or some such, please.
Some people haven't been able to view it with either link.
Windows media never opens.
I've embedded what i can fid Deborah, as stated, I'l update as more becomes available, is early days yet


Thanks, but I'm refering to the GAO hearing, here
http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml (http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml)
Click here to watch archived hearing webcast »

Exhausted, would you change the title of the thread you put up to read "Video of Anderson Trial" or something.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: exhausted on October 16, 2007, 07:13:23 PM
I've downloaded it to my pc Deborah but it must have some sort of restriction on it, it just comes up as being unavailable, I'll keep trying  :)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: exhausted on October 16, 2007, 07:59:23 PM
Update

Sorry but that file is asx. and I can't find a converter to change it, the link is dead - me thinks this has been done to stop peole like me spreading it al over the net  :lol:
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: EricasMom on October 17, 2007, 12:01:13 AM
http://edlabor.house.gov/ (http://edlabor.house.gov/)
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Antigen on October 17, 2007, 10:07:48 AM
I haven't been able to see it either. That bittorrent file never worked out. Anybody rip a copy of it?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: BuzzKill on October 17, 2007, 10:58:42 AM
http://edlabor.house.gov/newsroom/multimedia.shtml (http://edlabor.house.gov/newsroom/multimedia.shtml)

try this. Its working for me.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 17, 2007, 11:24:55 AM
This one works for me
http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml (http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml)

It opens Windows Media, which some don't have. How else could one view it from this link?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: BuzzKill on October 17, 2007, 11:41:22 AM
I don't know - I did find that it stopped after Allison Pinto's presentation, and went to footage on coal mining. I hope they will be making the rest available as well.

Edit:

I just took a look at the link - oddly, it isn't what I was watching when I did the copy to Fornits. The page I was looking at had the hearing in snippet of YouTube clips - which went from Congressman Miller's opening to Allison's presentation -

So - maybe look for it on YouTube?
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 17, 2007, 11:44:58 AM
The two torrents -- the Hearing and the ABC News story -- should work in trackerless mode. Several people have downloaded both of them by now.

uTorrent, Azureus & BitComet all support trackerless torrents.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Deborah on October 17, 2007, 11:50:52 AM
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""
I don't know - I did find that it stopped after Allison Pinto's presentation, and went to footage on coal mining. I hope they will be making the rest available as well.
Edit:
I just took a look at the link - oddly, it isn't what I was watching when I did the copy to Fornits. The page I was looking at had the hearing in snippet of YouTube clips - which went from Congressman Miller's opening to Allison's presentation -
So - maybe look for it on YouTube?


You can watch the entire hearing (about 2 hours) at this link
http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml (http://edlabor.house.gov/hearings/fc101007.shtml)
It's not in snipets.
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: psy on October 18, 2007, 09:02:33 AM
Quote from: ""Scarlett Chiclet""
I haven't been able to see it either. That bittorrent file never worked out. Anybody rip a copy of it?


Yes.  I did.  I'll upload it post haste.

Edit:  ya know what.  Maybe I didn't.  Maybe I did it on another computer.  i'll rip it again
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 24, 2007, 01:52:38 PM
Bumping above spam
Title: The hearings have started, watch the hearings
Post by: Anonymous on October 27, 2007, 06:27:16 PM
We need another bump for this one.