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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 28, 2006, 09:32:00 AM

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2006, 09:32:00 AM

The assholes that particpated in abusing seedlings also were involved in straight....come on y'all, the protest will do your souls some good.  Feb 25, see a  map and more info on Wes's site.  http://www.thestraights.com (http://www.thestraights.com)

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2006, 09:32:00 AM

bumppppp

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 28, 2006, 08:08:00 PM

You guys gonna hold up signs again calling it "The Straight Holocaust" in front of the Holocaust museum?

If so, I think you are hurting your crediblity in ways that can never be regained.

Sorry, but I cannot support something that makes critics of the teen help industry look like a bunch of kooks, in spite of your best intentions.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: marcwordsmith on January 29, 2006, 01:34:00 AM

I completely agree with Greg.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: marcwordsmith on January 29, 2006, 01:41:00 AM

And let's keep things in perspective. There are different DEGREES of adversity and suffering.

The Seed and Straight were nightmares. But they do not/did not compare to Nazi terror and the Holocaust, or to things like third world children being forced into prostitution, or to slavery (which still exists), or even to living in an occupied country or under a crazy fascist regime like, say, the Taliban.

The Seed was a lot of things. I would even go so far as to say it was an evil place. But I would NEVER call it a "concentration camp."

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Stripe on January 29, 2006, 04:57:00 PM

I read the articles and links on regarding this Museum fiasco on The Straights.com.  

As you guys probably know, The Florida Holoc. Museum is headed by the former founders and former members of the board of directors of Staight, Inc.  These "awards" by the Museum are the "atta boy" awards they give each other in recognition of their good works with the Holo. Museum.

While I agree that the Seed and Straight were by no means concentration camps, Mel and Betty have taken their illgotten Straight Inc. gains and put at least a portion of those funds into another charitable organization, and it is a legitimate good organization.  But even still, putting the illgotten gains into a good cause does not excuse them.  Blood money is blood money.  

I can seek duplicitousness of the Semblers' and other Straight Inc board members current involvement with the Museum - it's plain as day. And I think that duplicity should be made clear to public and more importantly to the members and supporters ofthe Holo. Museum.  But that would be better accomplished by sending each supporter and member a personal letter explaining where the "seed" money came from, why it's tainted and why these people are harmful to the rememberance of holo. victims.  

Doing something like that would cause a much larger reaction that the Semblers and their former cronies would have to address. They could not blow that off as a bunch of angry, bitter crack pots with an agenda.

But like Greg and Marc, I think the the public won't be able to make that conection without a whole lot of supplemental information - certainly more information than could be put on a protest sign.  Hence, when the protesters make their appearance on 2/25 the Semblers win and the protestors are - once again - made out to be the bitter angry crack pots Betty loves to insult and dismiss.  

But she and Mel would be hard- pressed to dismiss the facts and numbers of thier own actions.  

Just a thought for a different approach...

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 29, 2006, 06:46:00 PM

Stripe, you (and Marc) and me seem to be eye to eye on this subject.

I think that these people who ran straight, denying abuse all the way even as they were settling lawsuits for abuse...to then go sit on a board like the holocaust museum which attempts to honor those victims of abuse is way beyond hippocracy.


However Former clients of Straight declaring themselves victims of a holocaust on equal grounds of the german holocaust cuts the heart out of any argument they may have.  Holding signs up that say "the straight holocaust" to observers and passerbys of the holocaust museum paints them right into a corner of lack of credibility.

 Straight, The Seed, Even the worst of the breed, Kids helping Kids, were not even close to a "holocaust" as the term is used in popular society.  To claim so  is akin to someone with a missing pinkies holding up a sign   that says "I lost my arms".   Then how you holding the sign up, Skippy?

 You create a situation where people not only don't believe you, they dismiss you as a nut or on the fringe.

The thing is, I know a lot of these people and understand their intention is good.  Unfortunately, there is a right and wrong way to protest injustice.  This, in my opinion, is  counterproductive.

If they would remove the "straight holocaust" references and create a peacefull protest with factual claims, I would support them 100%

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2006, 07:03:00 PM

Protests don't work..They are just annoying for people that actually DON'T have the time protest and have real jobs..

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 29, 2006, 08:03:00 PM

I don't think I agree with that.  Protests can be effective ways of

notifying the 'neighbors' of the offenders of the nature of your complaint.

embarrassing the focus of your attention.


However, extreme care must be taken in order to raise yourself way above the fray, lest you become the focus of attention instead of your intended target.

This is the problem we are discussing here.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: marcwordsmith on January 29, 2006, 11:57:00 PM

Well, I didn't know about the Sembler connection so my last post was written in ignorance. The sentiment still stands, but now at least I get the idea of what the protesters would be trying to do.

I think Stripe's idea is excellent and would be effective, but how would we get the names and addresses of all the museum patrons and supporters? And who would pay for the mailing? Sounds like a lot of work. Are we that organized yet?

But what about a press release of some sort? Or a collectively signed letter to the editor, stating that, while we deeply respect the Holocaust Museum and the necessity not to forget the unthinkable atrocities and monumental tragedy of of the Holocaust, we find it ironic that two of the museum Board members are directly responsible for an entirely different massive atrocity, though not comparable in scale to the Holocaust (because what could be?), but an atrocious legacy nonetheless. We, survivors of Straight, Inc. etc. . . . hold Mel and Betty Sembler accountable for monstrous systematic abuse of young teens . . . perpetrated over a period of ___ years . . . etc. (And summarize the abuses perhaps.)

What do you think? Ginger, are you around? Seems like someone who is a Straight survivor should source this effort, were it to happen.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Antigen on January 30, 2006, 09:18:00 AM

Yeah, I'm around. Been busy, that's all.

I'm ambivalent as hell about the Holocause Museum protests. First off, ya'll just don't know the history of how Richard Bradburry's Community Improvement Foundation went about shutting down Straight, Inc. Rich stood out there protesting Straight Inc., usually all alone, from `85 till it finally shut down in like `93, I think. He may be crazy, but he ain't dumb. So I'm inclined to hunker and watch just on that count.

My only objection to the concept is that it's too damned much to explain. I get it, but even fellow program vets have a hard time understanding, and we all tend to be at least a little sympathetic going in.

I don't think it's off at all to reference the German Holocaust when discussing the drug war.

You say there are no death camps? I say there are. Here's a sad tale of one deader than dead scapegoat:
http://www.teenliberty.org/BootCamp.htm (http://www.teenliberty.org/BootCamp.htm)

Sadly, it's not an unusual story. Couple of times a year we get news of another one like this, or another suicide. And they don't always make the papers, folks, odds are we don't even know about all of them. But the stories we do know about are hauntingly similar. The kid always dies accused of faking and manipulating. The allegedly  horrible, soulless, dangerous kids around them never seem to have any difficulty telling the difference. But they're always scared to do anything to piss off the allegedly helpful staff who can't seem to see (or, in some cases, even smell) what's going on right in front of them, day after day after horrifying day.

How does that happen? Well, just read some of the TOUGHLOVE hategroup propaganda then you try and explain to me the difference between it and the National Socialist German Workers Party.

No, I think there's a valid point to the protest. I'm doubtful about their getting the message accross effectively in the way they're doing it. But then, I've known rich now for about 5 years. At every encounter, I've always wondered if he hadn't finally gone completely `round the bend.

But then, he's accomplished quite a bit. Just recently, gotten Betty Sembler under depo and Melvin's is coming up here shortly. If it weren't an 18 hour drive for me, I'd go. Not sure whether I'd want to hold a sign and stand w/ the protestors or just take some pics and see how the land lays. But I sure am not inclined to oppose the project.

A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace.
James Madison, The Federalist No. 46

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 11:08:00 AM

Quote

On 2006-01-30 06:18:00, Eudora wrote:



No, I think there's a valid point to the protest. I'm doubtful about their getting the message accross effectively in the way they're doing it.
"

That wraps up my feelings entirely.  While I think this is the case, I sincerely hope it is not and wish them the best..

To me, the best result of the protest would be the removal of all the offenders from the holocaust board.

Good luck to the protesters, and yes, protesting is a safe, legal, and effective way to convey a message...assuming you take appropriate actions to make yourself appear credible, lucid, and above the fray.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2006, 11:55:00 AM

Oops...that was me.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 11:55:00 AM

I have read Richard Bradbury's deposition in the lawsuit he involved with.

Semblers attorney asked some pretty stupid questions that opened the door and Richard Bradbury liken what happened to us at Straight to the Holocaust.

Semblers attorney totally flipped out at that point and made some pretty stupid comments and opened the door for Richard to state our points even more.

The Straight victims have a right to compare it to a holocaust on several points and Bradbury is not afraid to tell them so to their faces.

We have something to learn from him.

Straight was government supported, it was widespread, it was supported by presidents, Straight is and was national "drug policy."

If you compare just these points to how the Nazi's operated you will find many similar mode's of operation, aka "M.O.'s"

That's the point they are trying to make and it sure does have everyone's attention.

Good for the protesters I support them 100%.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2006, 12:04:00 PM

You may believe this with all your heart, but your credibility is on the line, and I see a problem with trying to convince the general public you were in a "holocaust".

You haven't convinced me, and I have spent years researching what happened and was in The Seed.



Further, Arnold Trebach warned  you guys about this before.  He told you to ALWAYS UNDERSTATE YOUR CASE or you will LOSE ALL CREDIBILITY.  The word Holocaust conjures imagery of starving kids, dead bodies and gas chambers.  Did you experience that?



Is this honestly what is occuring?  Can you say that with a straight face?  IF so, again I bid you good luck and success.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 12:18:00 PM

I am not trying to pick a fight, just stating what I believe.

I respect what believe as well and understand where you are coming from.

What would you suggest they put on the signs?

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2006, 12:20:00 PM

Not my call what goes on the sign, and again I wish them the best.  

You too.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 12:22:00 PM

No one, no sign, no flier ever said there were dead bodies, or gas chambers.

Even in court filings in Bradbury's case you will see what happened at Straight on specific points compared to holocaust like activities.

No one said there were dead bodies, or gas chambers.

I am not picking a fight with you, nor do I wish to but I do believe many things that happened at Straight and they scale in which they took place are very much like a holocaust.

Over thousands of years there have been many holocausts, not just the one during WWII.

The Jewish holocuast is not the only time in history there has been a holocaust.

it's not just a jewish thing.

In any case, I respect you thoughts on the matter.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2006, 12:26:00 PM

Thanks, I respect yours as well...I just don't agree with them.


Again..it is the word "holocaust" that conjures up the imagery of dead bodies and gas chambers.  The people observing automatically get this imagery in their head, and then they see you standing there.  Then they compare what they know about Straight (if anything) to what you are saying, and then they decide on your credibility and make a determination on your message.

This whole process takes about 5 seconds.

And this is where I part company with the idea of the protest.  I think the message is overly emotional and lacks credibility.  However, I fully support the idea that these people should be removed from the Holocaust board.  It is hippocritical.

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2006-01-30 09:28 ]

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: marcwordsmith on January 30, 2006, 12:58:00 PM

Anonymous mentioned that the Jewish holocaust was not the only historical holocaust.

As a Jew, that statement made me a little queasy. It felt like a non sequitor. I KNOW the Jewish holocaust was not the only holocaust. There was the wholesale slaughter of the American Indians, the killing fields of Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia, and more. But I don't understand the reason why Anonymous felt the need to make that statement. I'm not sure what the exact point was of that and as a Jew, I winced.

I also want to say, as a Jew, that I'm appalled to know not only that Mel and Betty Sembler are also Jewish, but that they publicize this fact. It's disgusting. They are disgusting people. There are disgusting people (and good people) in every ethnic group.

As for whether or not Straight, Inc. can be compared to a holocaust, the bottom line for me is that I don't know because I wasn't there. I have heard that it was far more physically brutal than the Seed and I'm sure that's true.

Once, when I told a friend a long time ago about the Seed, he deemed it (in an informal conversation) a "little holocaust"--meaning a kind of holocaust of the soul. There was something to that, I think. But the question with this upcoming protest is what will be communicated to the public (via the press) and what the impact will be. If this Richard Bradbury fellow has had success in the past, then more power to him, I suppose; I don't know. I do detest the Semblers and I do think that what goes on in programs like Straight and the Seed can be deemed "torture" in many intances, and I don't flinch from that.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 02:10:00 PM

I am sorry I offended you earlier by saying the Jewish holocaust was not the only holocaust in history.

I am not anti-Semitic, I was trying to make a point to the other poster that the terrible things the Nazi?s did were not limited acts to that time period WWII.

History has shown us humans are the most destructive force on this planet and have committed many other large scale heinous acts.

By the way, Richard Bradbury has never protested at any of the protests at the Holocaust Awards Banquets.

I know because I have protested each year these past two year and plan to protest this year as well.

However, we are considering some changes in our central theme.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2006, 03:27:00 PM

Well, If I could be so bold as to make a couple of suggestions, I would offer this.

1)  Dress nice..in fact, wear business suits.

2)  no yelling or cursing

3)  Limit the signs to the topic at hand...IE:  Sembler & Co, their past and their current involvement with the board.  Slogans like

Sembler...remove him

Board of Directors
Straight, Inc.
Mel Sembler
et al

Board of Directors
Holocaust Museam
Mel Sembler
et al

Holcaust Museam  Honors the victims of abuse
 
Straight Inc.     Charged with and settled cases of abuse

Betty Sembler to victims of abuse
"get over it"


Remove the hippocrites from the holocaust board.


Etc, etc.

ALWAYS understating your case.


That would just be my suggestion, and once again...Good luck with the protest!!!!

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Antigen on January 30, 2006, 03:48:00 PM

Finally! Something to argue with you
about!  :em:  

Quote

On 2006-01-30 09:04:00, GregFL wrote:

You may believe this with all your heart, but your credibility is on the line, and I see a problem with trying to convince the general public you were in a "holocaust".

You haven't convinced me, and I have spent years researching what happened and was in The Seed.

I have too, as you know. But have you studied the German Holocaust? I mean, do you know more of the story than just the parts about the angry little man w/ the funny moustache, Anne Frank, the gas chambers and work camps and that you should be appauled by the whole thing; hold it sacrosanct and never dare discuss it except in reverent tones?

Do you have a good understanding of what drove that insanity, how it came about, what it looked like on the ground as it overtook the German national character and hearts and minds of the German people (and not a few Italians and American financiers, industrialists and politicritters into the mix)?

One of the most important things to understand about that catastrophe of politics and war is that the European Jews were not really the problem that the people behind the Fürher were trying to solve. I'm convinced that Hitler believed that and most of his followers. But then, they believed it for centuries before the Socialist Workers Party ever began to pick up steam.

That's why the party bosses cottoned so well to the 'cause'; because the people were already eager to lap it up, to compromise their own ethics, to carry out acts offensive to their own sense of reason, their religions and just basic human decency.

And there are stark similarities. Not ONLY is the very same powerful Dynasty still in the game (look into Bush Harriman Walker, Union Banking, here's somat: http://www.rense.com/general42/bshnazi.htm (http://www.rense.com/general42/bshnazi.htm) ) but the only switch up in strategy that I can see is that they've changed their scapegoat to one more believable to Americans. The scapegoated class is now our own children, those of them who don't want to be just like us, and people who dare to deem themselves capable and qualified to make their own choices wrt drug use w/o permission from a reich approved practicioner.  

If you don't understand how a Holocaust comes about, it'll happen again. If you dare not mention these similarities, these mistakes, these outright frauds, that's the best way to ensure that it does happen again, and asap!

I swear by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
* - ~ Galt's Creed ~ - *

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Antigen on January 30, 2006, 04:08:00 PM

One more nifty quip for your bumper, protest sign or attractive coffee mug or t-shirt.

TOUGH LOVE is a HATE GROUP!

Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic

_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW  
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Why I Live at the PO



[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-01-30 15:07 ]

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 04:34:00 PM

wow - I am the anon poster of this topic.  I have been working lots and have not had an opportunity to check back...in fact, I even forgot I posted this till I was reminded.   I really appreciate all the thoughts and comments; they definately are food for thought.  

Greg - thanks for the thoughts on the signs.  I agree and I for one think that any signs comparing the striaghts to the holocaust should be discouraged.   Also, your comments on other more appropriate signage is well taken.

Although, I am by heritage jewish, my family became catholic long long ago, so I don't have the same understanding as a practicing jew on feelings of the holocaust.  To me it is the most horrible thing that happened in the 20th century, possible for the entire history of the world.  With that said, let me explain a bit how we got to this point.

About 4 years ago, a few friends of mine approached the ex director and staff of the holocaust museum and brought information to them regarding the crimes against children that certain members of the board and board of trustees were involved in.  At that time, a request was made to remove the persons involved from the board or board of trustees; the request was ignored.  The request was made numerous times, formally in writing and informally by phone calls.  

When the executive director had a sudden heart attack and died, the former president of straight foundation was appointed interim director, Bruce Epstein, a further slap in the face.  His involvement was well known too, as that information was provided.  Epstein is also a board of trustees member.

The protest will again take place, I will do my best to modify our approach somewhat.  I believe that it is hypocritical and does not honor the vicitims of the holocaust and the jewish people to have these folks on the Board.  I stand by that and will do all I can to have them removed.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2006, 05:43:00 PM

Sorry Ginger, you gonna have to pick another topic to disagree with me on because I know exactly what you are talking about.

My only issue here is credibility.  You can argue about the slow rise of terror in the camps, the slow turning of the people against the jews for no other reason than the government said so, the techniques of the hitler juegan...alll that stuff and make a valid comparison to some of the aspects of the holocaust. To do this, you need time, a willing listener, and an intellectual argument.

However, standing on a corner with a sign that says "the straight holocaust" doesn't work.  It merely makes the people getting the message think you are nutty.

Anon, good luck, and thanks for listening.  I wish you guys safety and an effective protest.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2006, 05:46:00 PM

BTW, Love the sign.

Tough love is a hate group.

agreed

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 05:53:00 PM

Great idea for a sign from the prior poster, how about this one

How about "Straight Inc is a hate group"

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Antigen on January 30, 2006, 06:28:00 PM

Damn it, Greg! You're no fun at all. Like playing w/ dead puppies.

I'm biting my nails over here about exactly your concern. Somebody posted in another thread something to the effect of Gee wiz, that's an awful lot of words for a picket sign.

Just one ray of hope here  ::hehehmm::

Quote

You can argue about the slow rise of terror in the camps, the slow turning of the people against the jews for no other reason than the government said so, the techniques of the hitler juegan...

Nope, didn't happen that way, t'was t'other way `round; in Germany, here, in Somalia and elsewhere. And I think this is a crucial aspect of the whole thing (but, of course, won't fit easily on even a very large banner [sigh]). Antisemitism was alive and well under the Holy Roman Empire. Before the Kremlin, Jews under the rule of the church were prohibited from owning land. So they were, essentially, forced to the middle-man trades; accounting, retail, the arts and education, &c.

In the mean time, the script sort of flipped so that these professional roles became more powerful and more important than farming. There was deep seated resentment already. The Nazi's just coopted it to their agenda.

And it's exactly the same story here. Americans have been slightly more frightened of the younger generation ever since the great waves of immigration brought them ferners into contact w/ our PURE, WASPie sons and daughters. (puns intended). Maybe even more deeply rooted than that is our Western Christian, Puritanical obsession over euphoric drugs.

The Nazis are, yet again, just coopting our native fears and anxieties and divisions. And they're the same goddamned people, folks! Just follow the money back to Prescott Büsh and AG Farben.

Mel Sembler is about as good a Jew as Virgil is a Christian. In fact, Betty professed under oath her affection and almost gushing admiration for Virgil. I don't know if he knows it or not. I don't care if he ever does. People have got to start seeing these monsters for what they are; snap out of it, reject their false authority and fucked up advice.

Quit paying and quit obeying the enemy.

Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.
--Thomas Jefferson

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2006, 07:59:00 AM

Endora or Antigen. What ever name you are going by now. I think you have flipped your broom.

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2006, 10:41:00 AM

hey, Greg - I'm the anon - poster that started this thread.  Remember...the FBI guy is watching you.   :grin:

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2006, 11:39:00 AM

uh oh....


 :scared:


 :grin:

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Antigen on January 31, 2006, 12:33:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-31 04:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Endora or Antigen. What ever name you are going by now. I think you have flipped your broom.

"

Anon I've known you guys were off your rockers since I was about 9 years old. Now I'm all grown up and somewhat edjumucated and can better articulate what the problem is.

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"

Title: join our protest on Feb 25 - Florida Holocaust Museum
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2006, 01:45:00 PM

Quote

On 2006-01-31 08:39:00, GregFL wrote:

"uh oh....





 :scared:





 :wave: