Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: TRUCKER on September 17, 2003, 10:03:00 PM
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THANK GOD FOR MY TIME AT THE SEED! PLACED FROM THE COURT SYSTEM AND BECOME A OLD TIMER OR DO TIME AT (2O YEARS) RAIFORD.I ENTERED THE SEED FIRST AT THE TROPICAL RACETRACK LOCATED IN DADE COUNTY.SOON MOVED TO SR 84 ALONG WITH OTHERS FROM ANDREWS AVE GANG.IT TOOK ALMOST A YEAR TO BECOME A OLD COMER.BECAME A TRUCKER AT SR. 84 FACILITY AND PROVIDED SECURITY AND HELP BUILD UPSTAIRS OFFICES FOR J.U., LIBBI,ROBERT,PENNY AND ART.I HELPED IN MOVING EQUIPMENT TO P.PARK TO START NEW FACILITY.ONE OF MY FONDESS MEMORIES WAS MAINTAING ARTS YARD AND THE LIMO FROM J.GLEASON AND THE BEAUTIFUL TEAK AND MAHOGANY BOAT ALL LOCATED ON THE NEW RIVER CANAL.AGAIN, THANKS FOR DOOR GUARDS THE OPEN MEETINGS,GROUP RAP,GUYS RAP,BEING STOOD UP,AND MORAL INVENTORIES AND PEOPLE WHO BELIVED IN ME WHEN I DIDNT. ONE THING FOR SURE THE SEED INDEED LOVED ME! OLDTIMMER TRUCKER
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Welcome trucker. One little suggestion....please unlock your cap locks. Online that is the equivalent of yelling.
Are you still involved...still live in the lauderdale area? Were you really given a choice between 20 years and the seed? How old were you when you entered the program?
Tell us more please, and welcome once again.
I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-09-18 06:56 ]
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1972-What a year! Busted again,this time while under the state mandated offenders program.My judge was the famous book throwing female who gave mercury morris some time to think about his lg.snow holdings.I will never forget when she said that she was ready to send me to her motel in north fl. but some people thought I was worth saving.She pointed at J.U standing at the back of the courtroom,then said if you do not complete their program (SEED) then you will be placed in my motel for no less than 20 years.I was taken by p.d straight to 84 facility,stripped searched, seen by doc,spent time in locked room and stayed with apt.full of staff members that night.With no sleep, next day I was taken to tropical park and introduced to group.Stayed at T. park a few weeks until it closed down and sent back to 84 where I spent the remainder of my time.I cant remember much about time spent at T. park because I was kept sleep deprived until I had permanent oldcomer.I missed all of junior year and three quarters of my senior year of high school and still received my H.S.diploma.Great school system!Thinking about all of this stuff is really freaking me out sense first finding this site last night.Remember, dont analyze...I got to get off now
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How old were you when you went in? Are you still in touch with the inner core in Lauderdale (libby, bob, robert...)
Did you realize the sleep deprivation was part of your "treatment" and had nothing to do with whether you had an oldcomer or not?
Are you aware that Art Barker is still alive?
WELCOME AGAIN!
Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave.
-- William Pitt, 1763
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-09-19 06:49 ]
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I dont know any one from the inner circle.The only people that I know are the two girls whos father was the doc at the 84 site.both of them were at the seed.Some of the things that I recall are when Robert Conrad the actor came and spoke to the group about his life,the day the large green license plate of the seed was hung on the back wall(made by C. Sabin), a Christmas open house meeeting in which the staff sang "Heard it on the grape vine", or was it just a night for a talent contest when Penny sang "The Impossiable Dream",When I took the stage and gave A stand up comady perfomance of the unheard of Jerry Clower comedian,and I even recall the night when some shots were fired at the seed windows by a drive by car of kids yelling"The Seed Sucks", glass every were.After finishing the program I was able to get into the military and left the streets behind me.I got married(still to the same girl)and now work for the federal govt.(26 years)in the north central Fl. area. Oh yea, I forgot my best man was a seedling.So to make a long story come to a end,was the seed the right thing for me? I dont think that I would be alive to tell this story If it weren't.
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Of course, you would have been "dead, insane or in jail" without it.
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Trucker, it seems to me asif you're maybe missing an important point. This judge who sent you there under threat of an impossible sentence seems to have been the one trying to kill you. If a mugger puts a gun to your head and demands your wallet, naturally you give him the wallet. But do you credit him with saving your life?
Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734
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Quit analyzing,its straight up, God grant me the wisdom to know the differance.The mugger was the so called friends on the streets,and me!The wallet was drugs.The judge new what I would do, not give up the wallet!Because that is all I lived for at at that time.The judge put the gun on safty because the Seed new a way to get rid of the mugger,the wallet, and the gun thus allowing me to countinue my trip safely.Unfortunately some people choose to not give up the wallet under no threat,get wacked in the head and stumble all over the road the rest of their life or even worse end up brain dead.The Seed loves you.
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Quit analyzing? Buddy, just look at the mental contortions you have to go through to make brainwashing look like a gift from heaven. I know a lot of my older brothers' and sisters olddruggiefriends who were not fortunate enough to receive that blessed gift. They're all old and settled, running businesses, raising families, etc. The only ones dead, insane or in jail are the ones who sat in group with you guys.
The Seed doesn't love me or you. The Seed stole my family from me when I was just around 6 years old. You remember the McNulty family? I was the cute, though oddly grim, little blond falling asleep in the fog of all that cigarette smoke at every open meeting.
Thanks Art! Mother fucker!This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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No,I dont recall you or your family but I do recall a lot parents looking at their loved ones hoping that they ( their kids) would wake up and face reality. I know that my parents said they were ready to give me over to the state rather then to influence my younger brother.Its tough to be a parent.At the age of six,I am sure you didnt get to say or have much imput into what happen in your family or to what was happening with the Seed but unless your siblings were put in by the courts, some one signed with the believe that they were doing the best thing for their children at that time.One thing for sure is if there was no love in your family then there must have been hate.Only you and your family know.Maybe it was tough love before it was coined.Keep fighting for what you believe in because I will too.Again thanks to the Seed and all that believed in me.
Trucker
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The three main friends that I grew up with and that were cosidered "druggie friends" are ALL doing very well and NEVER went in Straight or the Seed or any program. They were all doing more than what I was at the time and they're all successful now...gee, wonder how that happened :roll: . I really want someone that is pro-Straight/Seed to explain that to me. These people that were doing the SAME things and WORSE than me, never went to any kind of treatment and are completely successful people with businesses and families and very full lives. I'm also a parent of two teenaged girls 18 & 16. I've been through the drug thing from the kid side AND the parent side. I tried something novel....I TALKED to my kids. Not just when she got into drugs but through her whole life. We had our ups and downs during her "troubled" period, but we got through it and she's starting nursing school now with a full scholarship. WOW, how the hell did we manage without "The Program" :roll: ?!?!?!?!?! Don't mistake that as me blaming my parents for whatever trouble I got into, I'm not. My point(s) are that 1) The relationship that parents build with their kids THROUGHOUT THEIR ENTIRE LIVES is what is going to keep them OK and making good decisions and 2) IT IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE TO ABUSE ANYONE IN THE NAME OF "HELP". I've been through some pretty rough shit in my life but what has honestly had the most/worst impact on my life was Straight. It was the single worst experience of my life. I don't sit around whining about it all the time, but it sure is with me all the time. My father refuses to speak to me because I don't continue to follow the straight doctrine and I'm his ONLY CHILD. How the hell does that help HEAL a family. The problems my family had had very little to do with my drug use...that was just a convenient scapegoat so they didn't have to look at how screwed up they were.
If you really feel that place saved your life, more power to you, but DON'T tell any of us that we need to "face reality". That's YOU bud...wake up and smell it!!
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Ask your three main friends how they did it.You know how I did it.Correct, talking and being a family that is open is key to any relationship.I was never abused at the Seed,I was the abuser to me and others at that time of my life.I went through abuse in military boot camp.I live my life for me first and try to understand and respect others opinions(good and bad points) as these are helpful building blocks in making a stronger inner being,for me.I cant comment on Straight because I was not part of the that family.However, I (face) reality every day just like you and thank God the Seed helped give me the oppertunity back !
Trucker
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Just out of curiosity, what was the charge for which the judge was ready to send you to Raifford for 20 yrs?
The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's no good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan
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I also was "saved" by a judge. My father had me thrown in the seed with no charge. My mother got a lawyer and had a court order to have us removed. A St Pete judge LIED and said I stood up in open court and admitted to a drug problem and overturned the first judge.
The problem? I was never in court. These judges were all in bed with the Seed. I believe that the judge probably looked at trucker, after being charged with whatever juvy offense he was charged with, and said if he didn't complete the seed she would send him to jail.I do not know Trucker's charge but am reasonably sure that in High school he was not facing 20 years. This story is more likely the result of him saying the same story over and over for 30 years and he has come to believe it himself. You know, the whole hysteria, that he was "saved" as a youth from certain death, insanity or jail by the seed.
Trucker, stop and take a deep breath and try to remember back before your childhood was relegated to that crazy cult. Were you really worthless, powerless? Were you an addict? It is okay now, 30 years later, to challenge those old "pat answers" that have been in your head all these years.
If the seed did "save" you, then what did it do to my friends that committed suicide after they graduated? Is your post seed life really the result of spending your youth there?
And if it was so great, do all your friends, relatives, and children know about it, or is it your dirty little secret?
Just asking....Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous
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I too was court ordered to complete the Seed program back in 1972-3...or else go to jail. I don't trust judges, etc. either. I survived & graduated the program....got my termination of probation papers in my hand & skipped down the hall & said something to the effect of "See Ya Later..." but not that nicely. I hope Trucker can sort all of this out & find some peace.
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My friends made normal lives for themselves through the natural, normal process of growing up that they were allowed to do but which we were not. I fully believe that if I had NOT been put in there that I would have done the same thing. Go through a period of breaking away from parents, rebelling against authority etc. and then grow up, just like my friends did. That also happens to be the way my daughter did it. Help is one thing, forced adolescent treatment and imprisonment is quite another. As I said before, great if you got something out of it, but don't tell the rest of us to face reality......we've been through enough without some self-righteous jerk comparing the military, which is VOLUNTARY, to the Seed or Straight. VERY different animals.
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Me too Marla. That is, afterall, what this site is all about.
Never let your sense of
morals get in the way of
doing what's right
--Isaac Asimov
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Cayohesto, trucker is entitled to his opinion. He may have spent the past 30 years believing that he faced certain death without the Seed. Loggging on this website and realizing that many people who shared his experience have thought it thru very differently may be hard for him to swallow.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to share their experience here.
Trucker, Once again, thank you for logging on and sharing your experience. Got any stories from SR84 or the hanger to share?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein
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Hey Greg,
You're right. I completely agree that he is entitled to his opinion...so am I. That's all I was doing. I don't think I was (I hope I wasn't) overly harsh. I just took issue with being told that I needed to face reality. I've been facing reality for over 20 years now. I'm NOT trying to pick a fight. I respect his right to his opinion, don't agree with it, but respect his right to express it and I"m just asking for the same. I"ve tried very hard since I've been back on these boards to choose my postings carefully. I backed away for over a year because of all the anger that seemed to flow and I don't want to be a part of perpetuating that anger. If I truly offended "Anon" (and it does strike me as odd that these people who are so pro-program seem to always post anonymously) then I apologize...that was not my intent. As I stated before, it was the "facing reality" comment that got to me. I was just speaking with another survivor and she had a great point to make. There are, what, a couple of hundred people that look at these boards, a lot of whom post, but some who don't, and we're not going to agree on everything. I have no interst in getting into arguments with people over any of that. I have only posted a very few times since I've been back because of this. But....when I see someone that is, in MY opinion, telling us that what happened to us was brought on by ourselves or that we really needed it or whatever reason he comes up with as to why we needed to be there and is DEFENDING the abuse that happened, I take issue.
ANON - Once again, if you truly feel that your life was saved by the Seed, great for you......but PLEASE, don't belittle MY experience by telling me to face reality. I truly do wish you well in your life....I wish that for ALL survivors. I was telling this person that I was speaking with that all of this is kind of like "emotional vomiting" . It happened to me when I first found these sites a year and a half ago. All this anger, frustration, confusion has been pent up all these years and when I finally found someone or someplace that seemed to understand, everything came out at once. The rage, fear...all of it, sometimes in a constructive way, other times not so constructive.
Enough rambling...I hope ALL of us can find some peace finally. I think we've ALL earned it. :grin:
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Thanks, great post. On the SDF, I have tried with some degree of success to avoid the harsh words that seem to come on some of the other forums and to invite any and all into the arena.
We ex "seedlings" are typically a little older and less emotional about our experience than the straight survivors (and certainly the Elan group!).
I want to foster an environment where people on all sides of the issue feel comfortable in posting their experiences. In order to do so, I respectfully request that people avoid name calling and instead stick to addressing the issue,as hard as that can be some times.
Cayohuesto, welcome to our forum and please contribute here often. I assume you were in Straight. Ever know any seedlings? If so, What was your opinion of them and of the Seed prior to your going to the straight? Did they seem a bit weird, cultish? what about the hair, the dress, the lingo?
The seed was really a big cult for a short while in St Petersburg...it came with a bang and left with a whimper, unfortunately leaving the straight as its legacy.
Janis, Jimi, Jerry, Timothy... Do you HAVE to get this close to the edge to get a really good view?
-- Anonymous
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I was in Straight from 82 - 84. I knew of the Seed and a guy on my street went in....Joe or Jeff Portwood, I think that was his name. When my dad heard that he went in the Seed I wasn't allowed to spend the night with his sister anymore. I remember the cultish The Seed Loves You crap... bumper stickers, shirts etc. I knew of Straight very well before I went in...had a bunch of friends who broke a good friend out. She got lucky, parents never sent her back after she told them what really went on in there. I went to Northeast... I know the Seed was a HUGE deal at Lakewood. At NEHI we had all heard of it and knew what it was about but there wasn't the same presence that there was at LHS and it had changed into Straight by then. The main thing I remember about both programs before I had gone in was how everyone was robot-like and you could really feel that they were freaked out. If you tried to speak to any of them, they wigged out and got either scared or pissed...mostly scared. I now know that they were afraid of being reported for talking to "druggies".
I have found a really good way to kind of clear all the cobwebs after getting overwhelmed by all this stuff...take a trip to the Keys...it does WONDERS for the soul!!!! ::bigsmilebounce:: It's not a cure, but it sure is one helluva great distraction for a while.
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Reality must be a trigger word?Please re-read my use of reality and keep in proper context.I am telling what I saw.Reality to me is outside stimuli and how I reflect or perceive it to be.Thats all.Charges,3 each possesion with intent to distribute 5grams or more....cannibis,possesion with intent to distribute class I or II drug (cant remember)acid,and violation of probation.Dirty little secret,no...If you have a need to know.Yes, I have more stories about my time at the Seed.Heres one,after a oldcommers meeting late one night returning home with another seedling I got pulled over by a state trooper.He stated, I pulled you over for not coming to a complete stop at the red light and speeding.After reviewing my D.L. he procedes to tell me that I should be wearing corrective eye wear,one brake light was out,no tag light,tag was invalid, inspection sticker was out of date, and that I didnt use my turn signal at the light.What could I say? He then says where was I going in such a hurry? Home, I said.Who's that in the car with you? A friend ? Yes. Where are you coming from? The Seed I said.Oh is that right! He paused for couple of seconds and then said stay here for a minute and I'll be right back.He went back to the patrol car and came back in a minute or two and said son you have enough violations for me to haul you in,however,if you promise to stay on the other side of the canal ( I think Griffin RD)when coming to and from the Seed, and stop at lights, use turn signal,get all these vehicle violations fixed,slow down and become a oldtimmer I will let you go,Okay,.I said yes sir. He then handed me my D.L. and a warning ticket turned around and left.The next day I got into my car to go to school and saw the warning ticket on the seat I turned it over and all it said was "The Seed loves You!"
Trucker
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yecchhh!. More proof the cops were all fucking seed marks. What a crazy time in the history of Florida, when the cops all helped force you into a cult!!!!
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Yeah, no kiddin! I got extradicted from Georgia by the State of Florida for the "crime" of running away a couple of months before my 18th birthday. These are the same people who are now trying to put Richard Bradbury under the jail for the "crime" of drawing attention to Mel Sembler's criminal past.
I understand it's the same way now with Growing Together in Lake Worth. A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
Thomas Jefferson
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in requiem in memory
of my friend jim
who wasnt all right
who needed help
and got harangued.
who in his quiet
and tortured
depression
was sent
to seed
they stood him up
they confronted his need
with ignorance.
he tried till he
could bare no more
then let a bullet quiet
his demons
and no
the seed did not
love jim but but i guess
he is ok now.
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Well, if the seed saved trucker, I guess it killed Jim. It also fucked up countless people's families and lives, including mine.
Thank god I recovered, but everyone didn't. I have friends who graduated that killed themselves in various ways..I still, 30 years later, get emails and telephone calls from upset people remembering the mental torture and loss of family that the Seed caused. Many haven't told their wives and husbands, they are so ashamed.
Trucker, if you took something positive from the Seed, you are one of the lucky ones. Most people I know were harmed to varying degrees by their experience. Many won't even discuss it, or if they do they break down in tears.
Anger, Shame,feelings of being different from everybody else, loss of self-worth, problems with interpersonal relationships...these are the common "benefits" to spending your youth in thought reform. Surprisingly,everyone doesn't seem to be affected in the same way. There seems to be other factors at work such as the level of involvement with your family, your age and time spent, your propensity to rebel..
Consider yourself lucky.
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
-- Emo Phillips
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"Life is full of stumbles and falls,how many time depends on ones vision."
TRUCKER
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"sometimes you stumble or fall because some son of a bitch trips you"
GregFL
"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
"That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
--Disraeli to Gladstone
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How impossible is it for someone not to see the damage done to those who were just children at that time, clearly in an effort to market to our parents worst fears, all for nothing more than to pursue a buck!
The time I spent in the Seed was a nightmare for me and my family but I had parents who in the end saw through the sales pitch they had been given.
And getting me free from that mess; hell, just finding me, was no easy task! But because of them, I knew I would get past it all.
I lost friends going in and lost Seed friends when I left...so I learned about being my own person in spite of Seed group mentality.
It was a terrible injustice done that we all carry scars from but unless you actively bring something positive from that pain they are still the captors......and thats in our control
Best of Everything to everyone from Lakewood and St. Pete.....
Clare - Lakewood "76
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Thank you so much for those wise words and welcome to our forum. You are so lucky that your parents finally saw the light. It sounds like they were always on your side, and you are very fortunate.
I would so much like to hear more of your story, Clare...and I wish I could remember your face.
Do you remember mine..?It takes a village idiot to believe that a family needs instruction from the government to raise a child.
-- Anonymous homeschooler
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-10-26 08:58 ]
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Greg you are sooooooo right sometimes you do fucking fall cause some son of a bitch trips you!!!!!! I swear to God I come off as being crazy agressive but prior to my infortunate incarceration......... ::nod::
It takes a village idiot to believe that a family needs instruction from the government to raise a child.
-- Anonymous homeschooler