Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Paul St. John on June 03, 2010, 02:01:58 PM
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I knew all sorts of kids growing up..
I knew of kids who would wear all black and talk about death all the time.. I knew a few classified by many as suicidal.
I knew kids who did massive amounts of drugs....
I knew kids who got into fights all the time.. I m trying not be too specific here, but I have over like 20 people in mind....
I knew people who had no friends, and were always by themselves...
All these people had parents who stuck with them, and did not send them away. They are successful today.. Very many of them are artists.. Some are not artists, but work in the art field. One is a pro-fighter. Some of these people's parents has been urged to send them here or there, but they didn t.
All these people, in the end, grew up, went into society, and turned what was unique about them, into a benefit. I can only imagine if they were put into programs that told them that their identity is actually just an image, and then had that "image" systematically broken down.
I also know a lot of people who did go to programs, and for all of them, it is an issue. It's like a thing that never goes away.. a point in time stolen from a person's life, surrounded by people who actually are in fact, indeed brain-washed, and who would like nothing better then for you to join them.
Now, I am just trying to widen perspective here. Of course, not every thing works out great just by letting things run their course. I also know of far more people then I would like who never seen their 30's. Ironically, none of them were ever recommended for a program to the best of my knowledge.
Paul
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I could not agree with you more!
When I look at the students of the University where I work..well half of them would probably qualify for a program:)...maybe because it is a Performig arts university:))
When I look at my own children, how they matured and how our relationship is getting better day by day...they know they can trust me, because I never betrayed their trust. That is a strong foundation.
Parents should realize that being a parent is not walk in a park, it is the hardest job ever. Sometimes you would be desperate, sometimes you would feel you are losing your child , but do not believe anybody can do a better job then you!
And the reward is priceless...
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I could not agree with you more!
When I look at the students of the University where I work..well half of them would probably qualify for a program:)...maybe because it is a Performig arts university:))
When I look at my own children, how they matured and how our relationship is getting better day by day...they know they can trust me, because I never betrayed their trust. That is a strong foundation.
Parents should realize that being a parent is not walk in a park, it is the hardest job ever. Sometimes you would be desperate, sometimes you would feel you are losing your child , but do not believe anybody can do a better job then you!
And the reward is priceless...
Now, that, in my opinion, is a beautiful fucking post!
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Its all true. There are lots of people who used drugs, ran around, did this or that, didn't get sent to "programs", and have turned out just fine. There are folks who have gone to "programs" and can't seem to get past that. And there are enough who did screw around when younger and haven't lived to see their 30th birthday.
There surely are many who get sent to a "program" because their parents don't want to be bothered with the harder side of parenting. But not all. For some, a new environment - and often a truly drug-free one - were critical to restoring opportunity to their life. That, along with help in restoring their "vision". Does it take 2 years? Rarely. But it takes more than 2 weeks.
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it really is. Look at some of the great artists of the last couple of centuries. What would have happened to their souls had they been locked up and mindfucked?
Parenting is hard!!! Adolescence is hard!!! Nobody get out unscathed. :soapbox:
btw Maruska......I second Paul. Beautiful post!! :tup:
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As I regularly drank underage and sampled pot and exctacy and also had the most obnoxious boyfriend in the country. I too would have qualified for a program. Aside from these things i was actually pretty nerdy. I didnt even grow up to be that interesting in that i am not some kind of bohemian artist. My point. Just about any kid is potentially a program kid because they dont knock anyone back for problems that are too mild.
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I knew a kid....
growing up who seemed normal enough. His parents found him hanging in his closet one afternoon, dead at 13.
I knew a kid....
started drinking and partying and ended up dying in DUI car crash while in high school.
I knew a kid...
did great in school and college until his father found him OD'd on heroin just before graduation in their house, they had no idea their child even had a drug problem.
Perhaps these people would be alive today if their parents recognized the signs, however insignificant seeming, and got them the help they so desperately needed.
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As I regularly drank underage and sampled pot and exctacy and also had the most obnoxious boyfriend in the country. I too would have qualified for a program. Aside from these things i was actually pretty nerdy. I didnt even grow up to be that interesting in that i am not some kind of bohemian artist. My point. Just about any kid is potentially a program kid because they dont knock anyone back for problems that are too mild.
Oh you were a gangster weren't you?
:roflmao:
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(http://http://villagethinker.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/obvioustroll.jpg?w=454&h=432)
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I knew a kid....
growing up who seemed normal enough. His parents found him hanging in his closet one afternoon, dead at 13.
I knew a kid....
started drinking and partying and ended up dying in DUI car crash while in high school.
I knew a kid...
did great in school and college until his father found him OD'd on heroin just before graduation in their house, they had no idea their child even had a drug problem.
Perhaps these people would be alive today if their parents recognized the signs, however insignificant seeming, and got them the help they so desperately needed.
Because extremes are always good examples of the populace and there is no gray area.
::)
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I like this one....
(http://http://jokersmilez.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/obvious_troll.jpg)
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- Crack whore barbie - :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker: :rocker:
(http://http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Z7cNJj8qrQA/ScLEslVG2hI/AAAAAAAAA6Q/58nm0ODAIeE/s400/CrackWhoreBarbie.jpg)
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Because extremes are always good examples of the populace and there is no gray area.
::)
The argument of this thread is that somebody knew kids who were troubled teens, but they grew out of it without the intervention of treatment programs. I am stating that I personally knew of three troubled kids who did not just grow out of it on their own, so that kind of blows the whole leave kids alone and they'll be fine argument out of the water. I know troubled kids who went to treatment and they are doing great now too, and don't complain about it like the extremists here. Actually they are very thankful and attribute to changing their ways for the better.
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I am stating that I personally knew of three troubled kids who did not just grow out of it on their own, so that kind of blows the whole leave kids alone and they'll be fine argument out of the water. I know troubled kids who went to treatment and they are doing great now too, and don't complain about it like the extremists here. Actually they are very thankful and attribute to changing their ways for the better.
The argument of this thread is that somebody knew kids who were troubled teens, but they grew out of it without the intervention of treatment programs. so that kind of blows the whole "send 'em off to re-education camp" and they'll be fine argument out of the water. I know troubled kids who went to treatment and they are dead from abuse/neglect in programs such as associated with Aspen Ed and the like, or just walking wounded, and can't function due to their broken psyches. Actually they are devastated by what was done to them and attribute to the bonds of trust between parent and child being irrevocably broken.
Wanna go again?
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I know troubled kids who went to treatment and they are dead from abuse/neglect in programs such as associated with Aspen Ed and the like
You really knew a kid who is now dead because a treatment program murdered them? I would find that interesting, it certainly would give you more credibility in this argument than trying to equate a program that existed 30 years to today's modern contemporary programs.
or just walking wounded, and can't function due to their broken psyches.
People might take you more seriously if you avoid such strange terms as walking wounded. What does that mean exactly? It sounds like self pitying victimization to me, which is not healthy for anybody. Can you not function from your broken psyche? It seems you function just fine enough with your postings here and of course your life of beaches and boating, fun & sun. This is kind of insulting to your fellow "survivors", don't you think? Or do you promote people engage in self victimization as a form of life strategy?
Actually they are devastated by what was done to them and attribute to the bonds of trust between parent and child being irrevocably broken.
How overly dramatic, many people have problems with their family bonds and they never were involved in treatment centers. Most of the parents sending a kid to treatment already have broken bonds of trust, and treatment helps bring many families back together. This exact quote is probably how parents feel when their kid is being troubled and why they seek help in the first place, funny how that works.
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(http://http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0904/trolling-trolling-troll-internet-likes-to-fight-fail-jerk-pu-demotivational-poster-1239308887.jpg)
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I knew a kid....
growing up who seemed normal enough. His parents found him hanging in his closet one afternoon, dead at 13.
I knew a kid....
started drinking and partying and ended up dying in DUI car crash while in high school.
I knew a kid...
did great in school and college until his father found him OD'd on heroin just before graduation in their house, they had no idea their child even had a drug problem.
Perhaps these people would be alive today if their parents recognized the signs, however insignificant seeming, and got them the help they so desperately needed.
Perhaps, and perhaps not. You do not know that a program would have saved these people.
Ya know, if I really speak from my heart, I would have to say, that some of us make it and some of us don't, and that's a sad, fucked up thing.
But in my view of life, we are better off all of us living, but some of us for not too long, then to tie every young kid down in programs as quick as possible, and strip them of genuine life experience for a guaranteed, but dull existence.
Even the fucking word "program"
There is so much talk going on here.. this person needs .. this person don't.
I would say that at least 90 percent of the time.. a person does not need the center, just as I would say, that kids don t need all these fucking drugs, that society tells parents to put their kids on.. Live a lil! Take a fucking chance!
I am not claiming to have solutions to all the world problems. I am only saying that "programs" are not the solution, and there is ample evidence that they often make things worse.
Paul
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For some troubled teens programs do seem to be the solution. There are people just as passionate about making the argument that an intervention in their adolescence helped save their life, but they will not be found on fornits. If programs did not exist, then what would of happened to these people? If you could somehow calculate how many say it worked for them based on whether it didn't, that would be great. I personally believe the number that are helped, and even say it didn't make them worse off is much, much greater than the people who say it didn't work, or the even smaller percentage who say it was 'abusive'.
Based on my own personal analysis I would venture to guess the numbers are something like this:
Improved life: 80%
No impact but no negative effects: 18%
Made things worse: 1.9%
Say it was abusive: 0.1%
Anne Bonney describes people who went through treatment as walking wounded, and can't function due to their broken psyches. I have a hard time believing this is the typical result and believe this is rare. As indicated in a recent poll the experiences in treatment on fornits are rather dated, and it must be acknowledged that treatment centers have improved since then. Where are all the kids who have been abused in programs recently, why don't they post here? They are more internet savvy than the older people from programs decades ago, the answer might be a clue to something .
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For some troubled teens programs do seem to be the solution. There are people just as passionate about making the argument that an intervention in their adolescence helped save their life, but they will not be found on fornits. If programs did not exist, then what would of happened to these people? If you could somehow calculate how many say it worked for them based on whether it didn't, that would be great. I personally believe the number that are helped, and even say it didn't make them worse off is much, much greater than the people who say it didn't work, or the even smaller percentage who say it was 'abusive'.
Based on my own personal analysis I would venture to guess the numbers are something like this:
Improved life: 80%
No impact but no negative effects: 18%
Made things worse: 1.9%
Say it was abusive: 0.1%
Anne Bonney describes people who went through treatment as walking wounded, and can't function due to their broken psyches. I have a hard time believing this is the typical result and believe this is rare. As indicated in a recent poll the experiences in treatment on fornits are rather dated, and it must be acknowledged that treatment centers have improved since then. Where are all the kids who have been abused in programs recently, why don't they post here? They are more internet savvy than the older people from programs decades ago, the answer might be a clue to something .
I don t know what you re personal analysis is based on.. I m just gonna leave that alone.
I think that that the reality would be more like-
There are certain places that cause the majority of people harm, and maybe there a few new ones that help.
I would like to go with my gut here, and say that even the newer ones are mostly bullshit, but I admit I don t have the facts about ALL of these newer places. I do know that I would not recommend them to anyone whom I know and care about.
I always thought that this site is mostly based around abusive places, and that that is what people are talking about.
I know people who did 2 month stays in pshc wards and drug hospitals and shit. Again, I oouldn t send my kid there, but you won t hear me complaining much about them. If anything, they sound like a vacation, but I also have noticed that people who go into them, seem to end up bouncing around from one to another, and they start to live a program-lifestyle, with all the terms and non-esxistatnt issue that comes with... which tells me, there really wasn t any solution here.
Either way, the focus, here, is mostly on TC's and such, which are not worthy of your's or anyone else's defense.
And just because you can find a handful of places that may have helped people does not mean that everyone here is wrong. And again, I am skeptical.
There also is an argument for the idea that many of the people who claim to have been helped were, to an extent, brainwashed. I know, that from your perspective, that is a crazy idea, but it is true.
You can t break a person down and rebuild them. You can "break" them, and then while they are broken, program them with acceptable behaviors, which they will then carry out, because they know it is safe, and that if they keep doing it, they will not have to go through being broken anymore. Eventually, people start to believe that they are the act that they are carrying out... It is easier for the mind to believe that, then to re-experience the trauma.
It's a very old science. People who want unearned power have been using it for a long time.
The upsetting thing, is that the people who experience this have to lose touch with their actual selves, which to me is a crime.
In my view, most of this self-growth is an illusion, or trading one vice for another.
Paul
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You always bring up AA here, to show how crazy people in this site are, that they are even against AA.
I can only speak from my point of view. i don t think that it is the worst thing in the world.
But I do think that it is cult-like. I do think that it is trading one vice for another. I do think that it probably takes up as much of your life as the drugs did.
I do think that it is not for me.. If someone wants to go that is their choice. If someone wants to be scientologits , that is their choice too.
I won t knock anybody 'bout it, so long as they do not try to force their ideas on me, but if I am in a discussion in a place like fornits, I will probably come out and give my person point of veiw, and have every right too, just as everybody else does. I think it is bullshit! I think you quit drugs, by quitting drugs. If you want a power grid, that is your choice, and I won t knock anyone for it, but I am entitled to my opinion that it is stupid.
People who have been through programs can see more clearly, the trends in these places.
Where as you say might say, " Ph that beverage is not bad. It is mostly juice"
A program survivor might say, " All I know is cyanide is cyanide, and their is clearly some cyanide in that drink, and so why should I drink it. I have already been down that road. I understand the nature of cyanide in any quantity"
Do free thinking survivors, probably some times overreact to it , almost like an allergy?
.. that is possible.. But if so, it is only natural. better to be like that then to be oblivious
Paul
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Well, I don't think I could've said it better myself.
Not to use "smilies" but... All these academy's, programs, institutes.. whatever you want to call them options are just absolute :bs:
The only way I could see anyone needing to go to a "program" is if they were so messed up on drugs that they couldn't function, and instead sat on the couch drooling all day - rarely does it go that far in teens, however... - in which case they'd need a rehab type thing.
A "therapeutic boarding school" or anything similar to it is useless for anyone.
Why take a child away from their friends, and their youth due to some minor issues?
Just had to put in my two cents.
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There might be some merit in taking someone away from a destructive environment, but not against their will. Change is something that must come from the inside, and if in any circumstance you coerce someone into enacting that change you are wrong, plain and simple. An argument against reckless behaviour is not an argument for any specific approach to that behaviour - certainly not a heavy-handed one that stomps about on someone's identity and human rights.