Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Daytop Village => Topic started by: Paul St. John on December 29, 2005, 08:14:00 PM
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Tough love is basically the idea that help must hurt.. that it needs to be painful to be helped.
Picture this, you are on a boat, and you see a person drowning.. what do you do?
Perhaps you will throw them a life preserver.
you then pull them up onto the boat.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
You wanted to help somebody and you did!
It worked...
So where the fuck was all the tough love?
You didn t pull them on the boat, kick them in the face, throw thwm back in again, and then help them out, but somehow it still worked. You successfully helped them with absolutly no "tough love".
This is why it is so hilarious to hear a so called proffessional say that "tough love" is the only way to really help somebody.
In my opinion, it is a way of punishing somebody. They don t mention it but these centers are not just therapy centers, they are punishment/therapy centers, with most of the punisment aspect outweighing the therapy aspect.
Why waiste the precious time of one's life?
If there is a solution, why not go directly there?
Paul St. John
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Maybe something has changed at Daytop that I'm not aware about. When I was there there was no " tough love". It was called responsible love.I've looked at your postings for awhile now and all I can say is get over it and move on. Life is worth much more than holding on to resentments.
Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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I'm not sure of when or how you were affiliated with Daytop, but since the 1970's they have espoused the tough love philosophy. The only problem is that they provided the tough, but not the love.
In addition, the staff were program grads with no credentials other than that they were (or are) drug addicts and went thru Daytop. There were many staff who were active addicts and alcoholics, including Directors who were drunk and/or high on the job. When they get caught violating policy, they start up the merry-go-round and simply reassign the offenders to new posts at new sites.
Basically, Daytop is a dump that treats its clients like dirt and employs a confrontational "therapy" program that clearly does not work. Internal Daytop statistics (up to 1996) show an 80% recidivism rate, that is 80% of people who finish the program go right back to getting high.
If you need help, seek it elsewhere with competent therapists, not where your primary care staff are active addicts and drunks practicing ineffective confrontational so-called "therapy."
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On 2006-01-10 05:48:00, odie wrote:
"I've looked at your postings for awhile now and all I can say is get over it and move on. Life is worth much more than holding on to resentments. Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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In my veiw of an ideal world, places such as Daytop would not exist. This is more the reason for my postings then resentments.
I think of the jews for example. They have acted in accordance with what you have recomended, and they have done it to such an extent, as I have seen in my life experience that all I can do is bow my hat to them, and be amazed and inspired by them. I think they have done the right thing thing, as a whole, and that letting go, and moving on is of great virtue.
But concentration camps are gone. It is no longer going on. These rehabs are not. They still exist, and I consider an atrocity that these places still exist in a society which has acheived as enlightened a level of existence, and ideaology as we have overall.
I'm not sure what if anything has come from my postings, or even entirely, unfalteringly sure what I would like to come from them, or how much I even care to invest in exposing or acting against these places. I some times think that I should just move on altogether..
But something that I always think about in my head is the idea, that all heros and great people, those who I've always looked up to...
fight battles today, and pave ways today, in order that future generations need not fight them.
We have been there.. in these rehabs.. I have been there, and I know that they are wrong.
How can I leave to those who come after me, these places, still in place, and functioning, and still hold my head tall?
How can I feel right?
Paul St. John
Nobody deserves it.. I do fine with my resentments. I held my own in that place, but not all can or well.
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Well, I think you just come to terms w/ your itty, bitty little role in all of it. You just speak your peace and do whatever you can in whatever becomes the normal course of your life to tip the ball in a good direction whenever it comes your way.
You may not get a lot of accolades and tangible evidence of your good (or bad) deeds that way. But you get to live well, which is the best revenge. And, if you have faith in the basic fairness and balance of the universe--faith of the variety which is fed and strengthened by honest doubt--you don't assume your well intended actions or words will work for good. You wait and see what happens.
It takes a thousand voices to tell just one story. Right now, James Frey is just about my favorite media hoaxter. Whatever his intention (and who can know the mind of another) his li'll stunt is shedding some much needed light on the frauds and hucksters in this industry or social movement or witch hunt or whatever the hell we're in the middle of here.
They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit.
--Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer
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On 2006-01-10 09:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm not sure of when or how you were affiliated with Daytop, but since the 1970's they have espoused the tough love philosophy. The only problem is that they provided the tough, but not the love.
In addition, the staff were program grads with no credentials other than that they were (or are) drug addicts and went thru Daytop. There were many staff who were active addicts and alcoholics, including Directors who were drunk and/or high on the job. When they get caught violating policy, they start up the merry-go-round and simply reassign the offenders to new posts at new sites.
Basically, Daytop is a dump that treats its clients like dirt and employs a confrontational "therapy" program that clearly does not work. Internal Daytop statistics (up to 1996) show an 80% recidivism rate, that is 80% of people who finish the program go right back to getting high.
If you need help, seek it elsewhere with competent therapists, not where your primary care staff are active addicts and drunks practicing ineffective confrontational so-called "therapy."
"
Anonymous...
very impressive post.. I was not aware of the whole merry-go-round thing.
Paul
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Actually thats a pretty good statistic that 80% relapse which means 20% succeed, much higher than the 2% national average. As far as non credentialed staff you're probably referring to non college educated staff since all counselor's need to be licensed today. I'll admit it wasn't always like that, but times change. I'm not so sure that that any amount of education can be pitted against life experience but when you combine the two, now you have a good counselor.
It takes a village idiot to believe that a family needs instruction from the government to raise a child.
-- Anonymous homeschooler
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On 2006-01-17 12:29:00, odie wrote:
"Actually thats a pretty good statistic that 80% relapse which means 20% succeed, much higher than the 2% national average.
Daytop, and the Monsignor claim an 80% success rating. In my dealing with counselors, they attempt to appear to the parents of clients as all knowing experts. They compare Daytop philosophy to an exact science. They don't say, " Yeah, this works about two out of ten times, and the odds arre that you are doing this for nothing. ( I don t think that they would get many clients, if they were upfront like that. Most would probably just ratyher go it alone)
Also, am I correct in thinking that this national average really just compares Daytop to other similar programs, with different names?
And fundamentally, what it comes down to, is that while it may work for 20% of people, that statistic does not guage at what price sobriety was achieved.
I quit drugs on my own because I wanted to, and so did many others I know, but we didn t have to destroy our own identities first. I am not a part of the national average though, I would guess.
I can testify to this from experience: Almost everyone I had asked both while in Daytop, and even now years later, has told me that they became far more a drug addict AFTER leaving the program then they ever would have had they stayed.
I remember while I was there that mild pot smokers would leave the program, and return later with full-blown drug problems. And still today, I hear from people that they became drug addicts after leaving.
Also, you hear from some that while they may have been able to maintain sobriety after leaving Daytop, the world was scary to them after leaving, they no longer fit in with their peers, and/or their they are not as close with their family.
[/quote]
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Self treatment with no program or counseling is effective 15% of the time. Daytop has statistics stating "20%" but they are skewed. Not to mention that they publicly claim an 80% success rate. It's bologna. Most of their staff are active users themselves.
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Just wondering if anybody can show me the documentation of this so called 80% success rate. I know while I was there they had research but I believe that the 80% rate was the percentage of people that continued to stay clean from a group that had been clean 5 years. As far as mild pot smokers leaving and getting hooked on heavier drugs and returning there, well they had no reason to be there in the first place. Marijuana is a gateway drug for some and it stands to reason regardless if they went to Daytop or any other program they would eventually get hooked on something worse if they continue to use. What needs to be remebered here that Daytop and most programs like it is a last resort for people that nothing else has worked for.If people are being sent there that don't meet the criteria then yes, it is totally wrong. They should meet ASAM Level III.5 to be accepted there. If not well I'd suggest maybe someone talk to their funding sources and have them investigate it.
Power concedes nothing without a demand. The limit of oppression is determined by the extent of the endurance of the oppressed.
--Frederick Douglas
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Odie, I only tell ya what I experienced. There were plenty of mild pot smokers, including someone who had only smoked once.
We were always told that we all belonged there reguardless of what drugs we did or did not do. I'm telling ya.. They would say it in like this holy way. The one kid had only smoked once, and failed a drug test that his father had made him take since he started high school. They were all about money.
If I remember correctly, there were even people who did not do drugs at all there, but who went there to escape ghoing to jail for some crime or another. ( Daytop gets a lot of money from the government for each kid they take on. More then half of the money Daytop takes in comes from government sources. ( yes I can get documentation on that)
I remember a counselor was saying that EVERYBODY belonged in Daytop. You can't make this shit up.. he seemed to think that we were the lucky ones for ending up there, and no longer hhaving to be in the " real world". I(f that doesn't scream, ' CULT ', I don't know what does.
Paul St. John
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No doubt there were some wacked out counselors and directors when I was working for Daytop. And yes it is one big money machine. Paul, I'm not against what you're saying, I agree with some of it but times change. When I was there in the 90's it was totally different from the early days of the signs, shaved heads, drinking priviledges, etc., and yes it has a ways to go and my hope is that with the new licensing regulations for the staff, they will purge all the old timers and it will get lots better.
For the community to have 10% to 25% of its men unable to vote or unable to access credit or other privileges of citizenship for the rest of their lives in some states creates a permanently diminished
group within society.
Jeremy Travis, Urban Institute
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In the LATE 90's kids were running around with shaved heads and toilet seats around their necks. They wore signs like "I am a dopefiend. Don't believe anything I say. Confront me." around their necks. Most of the staff were active addicts and or alcoholics with no education whatsoever, just a Daytop "diploma."
It was and is pretty much exactly how PSJ describes.
Odie's comments aren't quite accurate.
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Take the bag off your head and prove what you say. I was there and that shit stopped in the lat 80's.
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Do anybody know Sharon Chapman at the Far Rockaway facility? She's off the hook.
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I worked at Daytop in 1996 and I can tell you for a fact there were kids running around with signs and toilet seats. That's true. What you're saying (that it stopped in '80s) is totally false.
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1996 huh. What facility did you work at? You sure it was Daytop cause I worked there in '96 and nothing remotely like that happened.
No laws, however stringent, can make the idle industrious, the thriftless provident, or the drunken sober
--Samuel Stiles
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I also worked at Daytop ADU/Fox Run in 1995 and 1996. Kids were wearing toilet seats and signs at that time. I remember when I went for my interview I saw a kid with a toilet seat around his neck and a sign that said "I have a shitty attitude. Confront me." I remember thinking "how bizarre."
So, yeah, it was happening at least as late as 1996, but I can't say what happened after that.
And yes, I'm quite sure that I know where I was working.
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Ya somehow I figured it was you DJ and I'm stating for a fact that you are a damn liar. Now go fetch your lawyers cause I'll prove once and for all what a bullshit artist you are.
The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
Tacitus
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On 2006-01-24 11:38:00, odie wrote:
"Ya somehow I figured it was you DJ and I'm stating for a fact that you are a damn liar. Now go fetch your lawyers cause I'll prove once and for all what a bullshit artist you are.The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
Tacitus
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Odie, don't flatter yourself. I don't need a lawyer to deal with a mental defective like you, son.
I guess you didn't work at ADU or Fox Run, because if you did, you would have seen what I saw. How else would I even know that anything like that ever happened before? I didn't go to Daytop, nor was I familiar with its history.
I only know what I experienced. I don't claim to know what you saw or heard at whatever facility you worked at. Don't you think you're being a little bit pompous to assume that you know what I saw when you weren't even there?
Odie, you're pretty much just an idiot. Plain and simple. You're a Daytop product. You fit like a square peg in a round hole in the real world. If you think that you're going to control what I do, you're sadly mistaken. If you're interested in controlling people, go back to Daytop where people will say you're right because they have to. Here you're just another poster.
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On 2006-01-24 11:38:00, odie wrote:
"Ya somehow I figured it was you DJ and I'm stating for a fact that you are a damn liar. Now go fetch your lawyers cause I'll prove once and for all what a bullshit artist you are.The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
Tacitus
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"go get your lawyers"? :lol: :lol: :lol: who is this idiot? you've got some issues, dude. bigtime.
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DJ I think you been hiding with that bag over your head too long. We both know your full of crap otherwise you would have reported what you saw, I mean that's how our last debate started...you claiming you reported something you heard. So if they were having kids wearing toilet seats how come you didn't report that? And if there was a report of a facility that had kids wearing toilet seats you know damn well that would have been splattered all over the front pages of the NY papers. So just answer that question. I mean you are usually the one asking that of others so it should be no trouble at all.
As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
--H.L. Mencken
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Report a toilet seat around someone's neck? It's not illegal. What would I report it for, or to whom? I don't think it does anything to help the kid. I never gave out consequences like that, but lots of other staff did. Kids wre always on LE's wearing signs and other props like the toilet seats. I found it stupid and unhelpful, but not illegal, Just dumb, like the uneducated junkie staff that considered it helpful in some bizarre way.
Front page of the newspaper? What world do you live in, man? There are blatant abuses like rape, beatings, starvation and torture going on right now in WWASPS facilities and THAT hardly ever makes the news, and never in the mainstream media.
I'm telling you that I would have no idea about toilet seats being worn around necks had I not seen it. Where in the world would I even come up with an idea like that? Moreover, how could I make up something that I've never even heard of before?
Maybe you worked in an adult facility that was run differently, but ask anyone who was at ADU/Fox Run at the same time I was and they'll tell you the same thing I did. I'm sorry, Odie, but you're just plain wrong about that. And not having been there yourself you really can't comment intelligently on the subject.
I forgot to log in, buddy. I'm not hiding behind any bag. You certainly don't inspire any fright in me. Like I said before, I view you as pretty much a mental defective. Your arguments make little to no sense and you comment on things that you just have no knowledge about.
I'm sure in time there will be some readers who will validate my statements. I don't need that validation because I saw it first-hand, but maybe someone will help you understand the truth through their experience. Of course, you'll probably just call them liars, but hey, that's how you operate, bro.
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Lets see now...hmm... I'd think there must have been some agency you were required to report such unethical behavior to, unless of course you don't believe it was unethical to put a toilet seat over a kid's head? I mean c'mon now dude don't tell me you you were ok with letting a classic case of emotional abuse to a child go on without saying something? Mental defect?...nah, just someone thats pissed off right now at somebody that let that go on without saying a word, that is if it really happened. I will say this, if I saw it heads would have rolled, and that would have been after I took the toilet seat and had the staff member who put it there wear it around his or her neck.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=1069053 (http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=1069053)
Looks like the use of humiliation tactics like the clownsuit and others were still being used by Daytop as late as 2003. Odie, once again, you have shown yourself to be, let's say, a little bit "factually challenged."
I call it "full of shit," but whatever. It took exactly one Google search to show without doubt that you have no idea what you're talking about again.
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On 2006-01-24 13:03:00, odie wrote:
"Lets see now...hmm... I'd think there must have been some agency you were required to report such unethical behavior to, unless of course you don't believe it was unethical to put a toilet seat over a kid's head? I mean c'mon now dude don't tell me you you were ok with letting a classic case of emotional abuse to a child go on without saying something? Mental defect?...nah, just someone thats pissed off right now at somebody that let that go on without saying a word, that is if it really happened. I will say this, if I saw it heads would have rolled, and that would have been after I took the toilet seat and had the staff member who put it there wear it around his or her neck.Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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No, I did bring up stuff like this regularly to my boss. his response would always be along the lines of "We've been doing this thing a lot longer than you have. Your education really means nothing if you can't see were helping people here. Our program works and that's waht matters."
My remedy for a situation that I was powerless to change was to leave. I now speak up about things I've seen and heard so that, hopefully, it won't continue to happen.
Again, I say that I thought it was stupid and unproductive, not "abusive." If I were going to report any emotional abuse at Daytop, I'd have to report it every day. That place is run on emotional abuse. "The seat" was relatively innocuous compared to the mindfucking in general.
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On 2006-01-24 13:03:00, odie wrote:
"Lets see now...hmm... I'd think there must have been some agency you were required to report such unethical behavior to, unless of course you don't believe it was unethical to put a toilet seat over a kid's head? I mean c'mon now dude don't tell me you you were ok with letting a classic case of emotional abuse to a child go on without saying something? Mental defect?...nah, just someone thats pissed off right now at somebody that let that go on without saying a word, that is if it really happened. I will say this, if I saw it heads would have rolled, and that would have been after I took the toilet seat and had the staff member who put it there wear it around his or her neck.Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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First it never happened. Now it's my fault that it did. Yes, your resoning skills show clearly that you're a mental defective.
If all you want to do is bash me, get on with it. That's fine. But don't say some stupid shit like "It never happened" and then say it's my fault because I "let it happen." That is truly moronic, Odie.
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On 2006-01-24 13:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=1069053
Looks like the use of humiliation tactics like the clownsuit and others were still being used by Daytop as late as 2003. Odie, once again, you have shown yourself to be, let's say, a little bit "factually challenged."
I call it "full of shit," but whatever. It took exactly one Google search to show without doubt that you have no idea what you're talking about again."
i guess that lawyer wasn't neceesary after all. odie, i think you're the one who's been proven to be "full of crap". obviously this stuff was still going on twenty years after you said it was stopped. is channel 8 news full of crap too, odie? why do you lie like that and try to say this other guy's lying when it's obvious that you are?
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On 2006-01-23 07:51:00, odie wrote:
"No doubt there were some wacked out counselors and directors when I was working for Daytop. And yes it is one big money machine. Paul, I'm not against what you're saying, I agree with some of it but times change. When I was there in the 90's it was totally different from the early days of the signs, shaved heads, drinking priviledges, etc.and yes it has a ways to go and my hope is that with the new licensing regulations for the staff, they will purge all the old timers and it will get lots better. For the community to have 10% to 25% of its men unable to vote or unable to access credit or other privileges of citizenship for the rest of their lives in some states creates a permanently diminished
group within society.
Jeremy Travis, Urban Institute
"
Odie,
You are more optimistic about Daytop then I. Personally, I would like to see them put out of business- not regulated. As long ago, as it was, I don't like being fucked with!
Paul
PS If the goverment stopped carrying them, I project that they would shrink smaller and smaller, and probably be out of business within a few years. If they were to somehow survive, they would have to recreate their philosophy, and probably hire all new pwople, and become more or less a new program all together- one that would not be able to exist while being so harmful... So really when all is said and done, it is in the goverment's hands, but not only in the gov't's hands. Perhaps, I will shut them down. i haven't decided what it means to me yet[ This Message was edited by: Paul St. John on 2006-01-24 15:40 ]
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Hey DJ, the Daytop program you referred to in Connecticut is not affiliated with Daytop Village in NY. Now I wonder why you failed to mention that? Maybe thats where the confusion here is. I hope that someone with such a high intellect could have seen that and not have a mental defected mind have to point that out to you but then again maybe you hoped nobody else noticed it. So back to the original question, why didn't you report what you saw to the proper agency?
A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
P.J. O'Rourke
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Wow Odie is right. The APT Foundation runs that place in Conn. You can see that right in the story DJ linked to. All ya gotta do is look it up at http://www.aptfoundation.org (http://www.aptfoundation.org) and see for yourself. Looks like DJ is the one full of crap on this one.
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I was in that daytop unit in 98-Fox Run. When I was there they were using the toilet seats and the signs. All that stuff was kept in a closet in the main house and the staff would make you pick out your own toilet seat to wear.
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I wrote the original message here. I was at Daytop Residential 1994-95
As a teenager, I was a resident in Daytop's "long-term treatment" Rhinebeck, NY and Millbrook, NY facilities. I was caught smoking pot and drinking--just your average teenage stuff. My parents dealt with it by sending me to this hellhole. Now that they are more educated and know about the program, they are remorseful. These are just a few things I witnessed while in the Daytop "program":
"Treatment" consisted of uneducated "counselors" yelling profanity and derrogatory comments at the top of their lungs--day after day, group after group. Strip searches were common--especially when perverted staff were on the schedule for that day. Residents were forced to wear signs that said things like: "I am a Liar" or "I am a dope fiend loser", etc. I was forced to wear clothes that were 2 sizes too big, because my primary counselor referred to my "slutty body" as "too image." Apparently Daytop's idea of "drug treatment" is associated with degradation and humiliation.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#75183 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7762&forum=31&start=0#75183)
Maybe that link isn't right. It's hard to imagine there is another "Daytop" that runs its program the exact same way as the one in NY, but has no connection. Looks like an oversight. I did a search for "Daytop toilet seat" and that one popped right up. Too similar for no connection in my opinion.
Anyway, just look at the post from this girl Angela from Daytop in 1994 and 1995 who was forced to wear signs. It definitely was happening.
Did you work at that facility? If not how can you say that it didn't happen there? Angela was a resident there and she says it happened. DJ was an employee there and he says it happened. They're both lying? I tend to believe two separate reports from a resident and a staff over someone who never went there.
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On 2006-01-24 12:35:00, odie wrote:
"And if there was a report of a facility that had kids wearing toilet seats you know damn well that would have been splattered all over the front pages of the NY papers. "
If the world functioned according to this idealistic perspective, this forum and most of the problems we see in the teen help industry would not exist. The media does not have the time or the inclination to report on every child abuse allegation. Unfortunately, reality is that many scandals, corrupt business dealings, and crimes fall below the watch of the public, the media, and the elected officials.
Daytop is well connected politically and has substantial financial resources. These connections and resources enable power, influence, and positive recognition. Daytop staff have been reported to CPS in the past. I worked at ADU 97-99 and know of CPS investigations, where the claims were deemed "unfounded." Or they were somehow washed under the rug, with no obvious reprocussions. Child abuse is difficult to prove--especially in cases of emotional abuse and neglect. The evidence is not obvious. Child Protective caseworkers are overworked, undereducated, and often miss the obvious. Lets face it: in a emotional abuse allegation: who will the system usually believe? A "disgruntled" kid mandated by the courts? Or the Monsignor who rubs elbows with George Pataki? Daytop has the resources needed to cover its tracks. They move suspicious staff to different facilities--sometimes across the country. Many staff do not speak up because they are either too brainwashed or too fearful of retaliation. This is reality at its best. And it allows Daytop to operate, despite its abusive and otherwise questionable tactics.
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So when you were working there did kids wear signs and toilet seats? Did you ever see anything like that?
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I saw kids wearing signs that said things like "dope fiend" and "liar". Kids forced to sit on the chair, outside , in the dead of winter. Kids deprived of sleep and adequate nutrition during Marathon groups. Kids with shaved heads. Kids forced to stay awake all night and scrub the kitchen floor with a toothbrush, after staff dumped huge quantities of food coloring, flour, oil, etc. on the floor. Kids detoxing from heroin cold turkey, without adequate medical supervision-- sweating, hallucinating, shitting and wetting their pants, rather than being admitted to an appropriate detox facility. Kids with history of abuse and trauma being screamed at, belittled, and ridiculed by abusive, agressive, overzealous, and undereducated staff. Kids with sexual identity issues being called "faggot" by staff. I never saw the toliet seat thing. But since I witnessed this other crap, I would believe it to be yet another example of Daytop misconduct.
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Wow. It's a Daytop day on fornits.
When I posted that link I didn't look closely. I assumed it was Daytop Village, as I have never heard of another Daytop operating in CT. In any case, I should have looked more closely and vetted the source. That's my fault. My intention wasn't to mislead anyone about the facts.
I stand by my statement that they were using the toilet seats, etc on LE's during '95 and '96. I saw it, thought it was stupid, expressed my concerns to my bosses and was told basically not to bother because this is how things are done at Daytop.
The poster who worked there in 1997-1998 said it pretty well. I too saw CPS investigations go nowhere and occasionally the staff who complained were transferred or fired. I also agree that making a report of "emotional abuse," as Odie says he would have done, is a fruitless endeavor. Especially in light of the fact that Daytop is an emotional abuse machine, everyone knows it and they still get away with it even after hundreds of filed reports.
The fact remains that this type of thing was happening, that Odie is either unaware that it was or is not telling the truth about it, and that Odie first said it never happened then said it did and it was my fault for not "reporting it." Again, Odie, you just can't have it both ways.
And, yes, I do still think you're a mental defective and just a little bit obsessed with "getting" me. Keep at it, son.
As far as you "proving" that I'm "full of crap," well, it seems a few others have seen what I've seen. You know someone's "full of crap" when they insist they know the goings-on of a place they never worked at or visited, even going as far as to call everyone who HAS worked there or was a resident there a "liar." That full of crap individual is you, Odie. Way to go. Good job of completely denying reality just to take a pot-shot at me.
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On 2006-01-25 08:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I saw kids wearing signs that said things like "dope fiend" and "liar".
Kids with shaved heads.
Kids with history of abuse and trauma being screamed at, belittled, and ridiculed by abusive, agressive, overzealous, and undereducated staff.
Kids with sexual identity issues being called "faggot" by staff.
This is what Odie has to say about it:
When I was there in the 90's it was totally different from the early days of the signs, shaved heads...
Apparently NOT, Odie. You are one full-of-shit dude. Are you saying this poster is a liar, too?
You say, "no signs" "no shaved heads." Well, that's a blatant lie, Odie. What is your interest in portraying this place to be something that it CLEARLY is not?
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Geez.....Look at all those anonymous posts within minutes of each other. Coincidence? I think not. But at least you finally admitted you were wrong on something DJ.I too saw that thing about the place in Connecticut some time ago and thought it strange that they used the Daytop name but they aren't connected. I do find some of those posts intriguing though, especially the one where CPS investigations fond none of the allegations to be true. Now nobody is that good of covering up rampant abuse no matter how well connected they are. I'd think that there must have been at least one of the so called educated staff that would have come forward during the investigations and said what they saw, unless of course they saw nothing. Oh and I'll ask a simple question this time. What search engine did you use for that toilet seat thing? I used google and yahoo and the only thing I found were posts in this forum
One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.
--Thomas Brackett Reed
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http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... umiliation (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-35,GGLG:en&q=daytop+humiliation)
I was surprised as well to see responses. This thread is usually pretty slow. I think people just get pissed off when they see someone saying their experience is invalid. Some people read and never post, but when they see something they don't like, they pop in to post.
I am curious as to who the other staffer is from '97- '98. I'd like to see who was still around from when I was there.
I do occasionally admit wrongdoing. That was just me not checking deeper than the front page, but I sure didn't try to deceive anyone. Just a little to quick to the "say it" button without looking a little better.
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On 2006-01-25 10:01:00, odie wrote:
"I do find some of those posts intriguing though, especially the one where CPS investigations fond none of the allegations to be true. Now nobody is that good of covering up rampant abuse no matter how well connected they are. I'd think that there must have been at least one of the so called educated staff that would have come forward during the investigations and said what they saw, unless of course they saw nothing. "
We obviously disagree on the nature of reality and the nature of these systems. I am a realist, who has worked over 10 years in the mental health field. As a licensed clinician, I am a mandated reporter who has dealt with CPS on a frequent basis. In my experience, most abuse reports are deemed unfounded due to lack of evidence. Or CPS monitors a parent for awhile, leaving the child in the abusive environment. It is RARE that a child is removed from a parent's custody.
You are an idealist, and a Daytop advocate. Obviously you have different feelings about your Daytop experience--and you are entitled to those perceptions. However, your comments indicate that you are not well versed in the child welfare system. If you were, you would understand the reality that abuse--especially under the realm of emotional abuse and neglect--is hard to prove. The evidence is often based upon hearsay and personal perspective. This is why we hear countless stories of abusive parents, who have been investigated by CPS, and do not have the children removed from their custody. We hear about these cases only after the most tragic incident. Usually these cases hit the media and public awareness only after the death of the child (like the recent case in NYC). If parents with no resources can avoid responsibility for abuse, then what happens with large, politically connected, and financially equipted organizations, who are accused of abuse?
FYI: Some staff members did report their experiences to CPS, otherwise CPS would not have conducted an investigation. These efforts were fruitless. This is no surprise. This is par for the course in the child welfare system.
I understand that these realities are difficult to absorb. When I started out in this field, I shared some of your idealism. I expected that systems designed to protect children did their job. The reality is: the child welfare system is bloated with bureaucracy, red tape, inefficiency, and poorly trained/overburdened caseworkers. Unfortunately, we are talking about a well intended, but damaged system that does not protect children from abuse and neglect.
DJ,
I worked at ADU 97-99, as I indicated in my above posts. What staff are you curious about?
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George W., Hendrick T., Mike C., Aaron (can't remember last name - MSW). Were these guys still there when you were?
Stacy (the teacher married to Jack, Swan Lake director) works at the County Jail now. My brother is a Lieutenent there and gives me an update on her every once in a while. She seems to be doing well and glad to be out of DV.
Also, when I left Frank Lanza was the "acting director." I know he's passed on now, but did he ever get removed from that facility? He was like a little baby Hitler in the way he dealt with those of us that were clinicians and not "Daytopians."
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George W was assistant director while I was at ADU. The last time I spoke with him, he was working toward an MSW. Someone told me he is working for SFH / Turning Point in Beacon. Aaron Barrios left ADU shortly after my departure in 1999. I think he took a position at Saint Francis Hospital. He was burnt out on the Daytop BS, just like anyone with an operating brain cell. Mike worked at Foxrun while I was there. Hendrick seemed to float in and out of various facilities (ADU, Foxrun, and Millbrook). I remember Stacy--the teacher. Frank Lanza--what a character. When I was there, he was head of "staff training" and working out of the Stone Cottage administrative building. Aaron B told me that Frank got in trouble for inappropriate discipline of the kids (there was a CPS investigation), and was forced out of his directorship position.
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Thanks for the update, brother. It's nice (but sad) to know that I'm not alone in the way I feel about that place.
Aaron nearly packed it in on his first day if I remember correctly. He was like "What the hell IS this place?!" He made it three more years, huh? God bless him.
That reminds me, speaking of Aaron, he shared an office with Marie Blakey. Do you know what became of her? She was dating the operations guy, Bill. I used to stop by her house sometimes to fly fish part of a nice stream that flowed behind her property (off of 9G just north of Hyde Park). We'd have a few drinks and shoot the breeze about Daytop and whatever else. She was a great lady.
Thanks again for the news. I really do appreciate it. Take care.
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DJ, Actually, you can call me sister!
If I am not mistaken, I was Marie's replacement. I never met her.
I miss Aaron. It is a shame we lost touch. He was my primary support system in that jungle of dysfunction.
During my first few weeks of Daytop employment, I used to cry my eyes out every night after work. The kids, and a few staff, were the light in a dark and disturbing environment. I just stayed to collect the paycheck, as I was saving money for grad school at the time. Nonetheless, it was a good learning experience. I would never refer someone to a TC, for example.
Speaking of abuse allegations: there used to be a website, created by a former resident, that criticized Daytop. It included testimony from former residents about various abuses. I remember reading stories about a wacko director in an adult Sullivan County facility that forced people to lie in make shift graves in the dirt basement. There was a lawsuit, but I cannot find anything on the web about it. The critical website is no longer online. According to the website adminstrator, Daytop pulled some legal trick and got the site removed. Did you ever see it? Aside from this message board, it was the only critique of Daytop on the web. Given Daytop's history, I find that amazing.
Are you still working in the field? Perhaps we have crossed paths somewhere in the Hudson Valley.
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All right then, sister. Sorry for the mistake. I actually had someone calling me "her/she" all day today. It happens.
I'm now out of the field totally. I got my MBA and an engineering degree and now work in the high tech arena. I would never go back at this point.
Can't say I ever saw the Daytop website you're referring to. I am not surprised, however, to learn it was shut down by legal force. Another facility I worked for before Daytop, Hidden Lake Academy, has been on the warpath to shut down critical information. They have served two people today, three this week and six in the past four months. They're trying to sue dissenters into submission. So far everyone has caved and voluntarily retracted their statements. If anyone stands up to them and it gets to the discovery phase, they're going to have some REALLY BAD PR when it becomes part of the official record.
So, are you still in the area? I won't say on this forum because I may have to dodge the process server. I've also recently been threatened with physical violence via some late night phone calls from folks trying to shut me up. I've had to change my number and I'm moving to another state next month. The State Police are investigating.
If you'd like, go ahead and get a username and drop me a PM and I think we can talk more candidly.
Thanks for responding to me today. It's brought back a lot of memories...
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Sorry, forgot to log in. Previous post was mine. Don't want to get Odie all riled up again accusing me of posing as you.
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Awwww... I would have known it was you :lol:
You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot
easier.
--GW Büsh, Governor of Texas. Governing Magazine, 7/98
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On 2006-01-25 16:40:00, odie wrote:
"Awwww... I would have known it was you :lol: You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot
easier.
--GW Büsh, Governor of Texas. Governing Magazine, 7/98
"
Don't go endearing yourself to me now, Odie. I'm trying to stay mad at you.
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Ok so keep on hating me...lol. Interesting about that post about that Sullivan County facilty and that laying in graves stuff. I remember that incident and all the hoopla that followed because I just happened to be working at that particular facility at the time so now ya gonna really love me DJ cause you have a real live bona fide witness. I remember it all too well because the person didn't go complaining to some agency the person went straight to Cardinal O'Connor. Now that was something to watch all that squirming. Even though the grave thing never happened it did lead to a huge investigation and it looked at things that were happening there over 10 years. Of course all the big honchos denied everything and left this poor director holding the bag and he resigned rather than to be demoted.
The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:
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On 2006-01-25 17:10:00, odie wrote:
"Ok so keep on hating me...lol. Interesting about that post about that Sullivan County facilty and that laying in graves stuff. I remember that incident and all the hoopla that followed because I just happened to be working at that particular facility at the time so now ya gonna really love me DJ cause you have a real live bona fide witness. I remember it all too well because the person didn't go complaining to some agency the person went straight to Cardinal O'Connor. Now that was something to watch all that squirming. Even though the grave thing never happened it did lead to a huge investigation and it looked at things that were happening there over 10 years. Of course all the big honchos denied everything and left this poor director holding the bag and he resigned rather than to be demoted. The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:
"
Sounds about par for the course. Dump your garbage on the lowest ranking guy who can possibly take the heat. Lovely.
I never heard about that (alleged) incident in particular. However, the digging of your own grave is a popular theme in many LGAT seminars widely employed by behavior mod facilities. It really is a common thread and I've heard about it from quite a few folks from different programs. It's also total nonsense, as is all LGAT.
Some call it "marathons," some call it "propheets," some call it "seminars," but it's all the same thing: dangerous "regressive" technique based on sleep and food/water deprivation to get the subject completely open to suggestion ("broken down"), and accomplish full indoctrination ("built up") into the "peer group" or "family."
I've seen this dangerous technique wielded by completely untrained, uneducated hacks and the results can be simply devastating to the subject.
Which facility was it, Swan Lake?
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No it was Parksville. The girl that brought that allegation brought a whole laundry list. She did have a hidden agenda for making a lot of the allegations but some things she said were true. The director at the time was a friend of mine and a few years later committed suicide. Now I don't support his choices towards the end of his life but he was one of the good ones that actually cared. What happened to him was a damn shame and this is one instance that I neither forget nor forgive. I have a love/hate relationship with Daytop. They in all probability know who I am because boards like this get monitored all the time. I don't give a damn. There used to be two other web sites that knocked them, one got shut down over some copyright infringement but the one this girl had just disappeared. Don't know what happened with it. Never heard what happened to her either.
What experiences and history teach is this-that people and government never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it.
--G.W.F Hegel (1770-1831)