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Messages - John Underwood

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1
The Seed Discussion Forum / Another note to John Underwood
« on: September 29, 2005, 09:42:00 AM »
Ginger, Ginger, Ginger:

I, for one, dispute these statements. I, unlike you, was actually there.

We are never going to come anywhere close to agreement re The Seed. Further, with the overwhelming amount of posts here, I, (nor anyone else), can possibly, directly, respond to every irresponsible accusation.

Believing that deriding and scoffing at opinions that don?t fit into the closed minded architecture of the hate based mentality of the obsessive will somehow create a consensus that leads to the truth is fantasy, at best.

What do you know about the thousands that went through The Seed? NOTHING, absolutely nothing! You know about the experience of your family and maybe, at most, a few dozen others.
That?s it. And don?t give me The Seed-Straight comparison, it doesn?t work. You attended some open meetings, made some sandwiches, and resented, as a very young child, the attention you were being deprived of because your parents sought help for your sibs, and declare this makes you a Seed expert???
You cite learned bodies that have brought us such other credible undertakings as The Patriot Act, the war in Iraq, tax reform(lol), and dozens upon dozens of similar miscues in recent decades.

Too bad you don?t direct all this zealous energy toward something that might actually help. Actually, that brings to mind a question.
Why don?t you?

And for the record, of course there were people in The Seed that, (in my opinion), didn?t belong there, but these were a minority. Do you honestly believe we (staff) wanted these persons on the program ? Why? I can tell you it did nothing for us except making a very difficult job even harder.
And yes, The Seed was flawed, of course it was. Who or what isn?t?

My problem here isn?t the derision personally directed at me, ranging from dishonest to bizarre to psychotic, it?s the information presented and promoted as authoritative, yet has no basis in fact.
My problem here is the complete lack of respect and regard shown to anyone who dares say they were helped by The Seed
My problem here is that post after post complains about how awful The Seed experience was, but the absence of any statements regarding what these people did, (when they had the opportunity), to make it better, is what I see. Unless you believe whining, complaining and bitching actually works??? Which brings to mind another question.

Do you believe that whining, abasing, complaining, deriding, et al, is somehow cathartic? That this somehow furthers education, enlightenment? Helps people gain a more comforting, honest perspective?

As has been previously stated, what you got yourself here kid is a hate cult, nothing more.

Change it if you can and care.

P.S.
Please don't stop the sparring with Lauderdale. It is the most attractive and endearing thing you have going for you.

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The Seed Discussion Forum / Why Did YOU Stay Away?
« on: September 26, 2005, 10:21:00 AM »
I can only speak for myself.
My closest and dearest friends in the world today are former Seedlings. It is through one of them that I found out about this site. (The bond between us, of course, has matured over the years) It not only began at The Seed, but was only possible because of The Seed. I'm not going to write an essay here about friendship, but I will say I consider myself to be extremely fortunate to have these people as friends, relationships of a love, depth and commitment I never would have dreamed possible once upon a time. I think, probably, much of what's missing, in the way of understanding, is that much of the loyalty I, (and others), exhibit at this site is because of this, as well as, what The Seed did for me, (us), personally.
As to why I didn't return??? This should be patently obvious. Though I thought about it many times over the years, I believed that my presence there would have been, at the very least, disruptive. Lybbi's reaction to me, when we chanced to meet in 2001, was disappointing, but certainly not unexpected, and confirmed what I had always believed. Besides, as some of you, (later-day Seedlings), have pointed out, The Seed became, (was already becoming), exactly what I believed it would when I left.

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The Seed Discussion Forum / I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« on: September 24, 2005, 09:55:00 AM »
Good morning Greg, how are you?
Newcomers picked out (with staff approval) what clothes they wanted to keep with them. The rest went home with mom & dad. This all took place before they left intake. Stealing of any kind would have resulted in either the front row or out the door. No one was above this.

4
The Seed Discussion Forum / I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« on: September 23, 2005, 11:57:00 PM »
...and yes Ginger, my memories are quite different from yours, though I'm sure the fact that you were still in elementary school and I was in my 20s has nothing to do with the clarity of the memories, right?
I was at a family reunion a number of years ago, hadn't seen a lot of relatives in decades. It was strange how my aunts, uncles and cousins who were much older than me remembered things from when I was 7, 8, 9 years old so much differently than me. At the time, it never occurred to me that they were full of shit, hell, I actually believed them. Thanks for setting me Straight. (or do I mean setting me Seed, it's so damn confusing)

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The Seed Discussion Forum / I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« on: September 23, 2005, 11:43:00 PM »
Hello again Ginger,
No, I never said The Seed was voluntary. Ginger, I was there via court order. Left to my own
device(s), I would never have entered rehab.
Well,.. never's a strong word, ...I certainly wouldn't have at that particular time in my life.

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The Seed Discussion Forum / I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« on: September 23, 2005, 12:08:00 PM »
Ooops, in my haste, I forgot to answer one of Stripe's questions that was legit.
At Fort Lauderdale (SR84) confiscated drugs were keep in a safe, w/o any kind identification as to it's origin attached. The City of Davie Police Dept. came, (at their discretion as to when, etc.), and picked up the drugs. Elsewhere, I really don't remember, right now. I will attempt to have my memory jogged by reliable sources and get back to you.

7
The Seed Discussion Forum / I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« on: September 23, 2005, 11:53:00 AM »
It has been suggested to me that I tone down that which can be interpreted as inflammatory rhetoric. I agree. (success not guaranteed, however)  I?ve also been asked to directly respond to questions, allegations, accusations. I agreed. I believed, and still do, it?s a good idea.
But now I have a question. At what point do I draw the line?
It occurred to me, in reading Stripe?s above post, the potential for allegations is infinite.
Stealing and wearing other peoples? clothes is a perfect example. Initially, I believed that the difference between legitimate, credible accusations and/or questions would be obvious to anyone. It goes without saying that was ridiculously naive on my part, even stupid.
So, at what point do I draw the line? The answer, of course, is up to me, but for the record, I have no intention of exhuming, resurrecting and hiring Roberto Clemente to field those statements that come from so deep in the outfield I have no interest in even attempting to field. (that wasn?t too inflammatory, was it?)

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The Seed Discussion Forum / I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« on: September 22, 2005, 04:59:00 PM »
Dear Ginger,
I personally didn't have to perform many strip searches (one of the priveledged senior staff as you are so found of saying), but to answer your question directly, not often. The word was out in Ft. Lauderdale. The last one I did where I actually found something (and maybe Marshall or others remember this because the guy was from Albany, Ga., and what was found was shown to the group as an example, if you try you will be caught): The guy pulled down his underwear and had his works kit with dope in it taped behind his scrotum. I remember this one so well, not because of the dope, but, as a man I cringed, I could not fathom the pain he must have endured sitting in a car from Albany to Ft. Lauderdale after seeing what he'd done.
How hard is it to figure out that if your running a drug rehab, every precaution has to be taken to keep drugs off the premises.
Again, it blows my mind that this even needs explaining.

9
The Seed Discussion Forum / as*****
« on: September 22, 2005, 03:38:00 PM »
Hello again Marshall,
I have no doubt whatsoever that The Seed changed, in my opinion, for the worse after I left. As I've written about, it started well before that. And it is not that I don't believe much of what's written regarding the rule changes, etc, I do, it's  just that because I wasn't there, I feel my conmmenting about it is inappropriate, or rather it's more appropriate to hear about from people who were there. And you are absolutely write when you state that much of the rhetoric here loses meaning, lends itself to misinterpretation, because there were so many different Seeds (and I mean in the context you do, not physically). And I was only there for 6 1/2 years. An example, The Seed at Cleveland v. early Andrews Ave., anyone who experienced both knows the differences dwarfed the similarities in no small degree.
I feel like I'm shortchanging you again, but I really do have to go. But as promised previously, we will continue this dialogue.
John

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The Seed Discussion Forum / I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« on: September 22, 2005, 02:15:00 PM »
...and for the record, strip searches weren't arbitrarily decided upon as a pre-emptive, they began only after newcomers were caught with drugs on the premises at Andrews Ave.

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The Seed Discussion Forum / I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« on: September 22, 2005, 02:11:00 PM »
Strip searches: People atttempted to bring drugs into the program, usually pot. I can't even believe this needs explaining.

12
The Seed Discussion Forum / as*****
« on: September 22, 2005, 12:19:00 PM »
Hi Marshall,

Sorry for the tardiness, ... there is life outside of Fornits, but as promised....

1. Of course some of the statements I?ve made here have been divisive. When having opinions that offend certain persons what else is to be expected. I?ve offered just as many statements that I believe any reasonable person would consider, at the very least, conciliatory. Though I certainly have not read ever single post, in making a cursory search of this site from the beginning, division and controversy existed long before me. By their own definition(s) they?ve created a perfect ?cult? right here. Those who resist their ?cult? will always be viewed as dividers. Thoroughly read the posts here and I believe you?ll find that every criticism leveled at The Seed, it?s staff, is the very essence of the logic, train of thought, that has been adopted here. As you?ve so astutely pointed out in many of your posts, there?s not much that is truly new or original, just made over to look like something else.

2. Program for life? If you mean that literally, of course that?s absurd, never should have been advocated. Even more than absurd, directly counter to the very purpose of the program, though I don't personally remember ever hearing that.

3. It was never Art?s business who someone married. I married a Seed grad a over year before leaving. It was certainly, at best, frowned upon (and unwanted) before the marriage, but to their credit, it was supported with sincerity after the fact.

4. Abortions? I missed that. (for the record - I am as adamantly pro-choice as a male can be)

5. While a person was still on the program we thought working at head shops, volunteering for NORMAL, that kind of thing, was probably a bad idea. Long term career - individual decision.

6. Gender bias - absurd, and hypocritical on Art's part, most senior staff were female. However, Art was the product of a generation where gender roles were determined by the contemporary society.

7. Art is for sissies? Now do you mean studying Art Barker, or aesthetics? I would consider both worthwhile endeavors, though the later would probably be more beneficial in the long term. Too bad more here don?t see that.

8. I?ve never seen anyplace, school, the workplace, The Seed Discussion Forum, et al, where inner circles, cliques don?t exist. Again, too bad, part of the condition human.

9. After I left? I did give my opinion about this in my first post. After that, I really just don?t know, (no firsthand info), and I?m certainly not going draw definitive conclusions based solely on information gathered here.

10. Lybbi? I can only speak for myself. I never let Lybbi tell me anything. In good conscience, a personal note is required here. Once upon a time, Lybbi and I were very good friends, we loved each other like brother and sister, better maybe. Art often referred to us this way. We fought often, and hard, but as siblings usually do, we forgave and made-up. About a year, maybe a year and a half before I left, the fighting continued, became progressively worse and more frequent, but the forgiving and making-up was no longer a component of our relationship. In retrospect, this was inevitable. The common ground we both once stood upon rapidly separated below our feet, leaving only the gulf. There was only one life jacket at The Seed, and neither of us particularly wanted to drown, so...

11. Lybbi speaking to you not me? Well, the above should answer part of that, but I do believe this: Though she might not acknowledge this or may not have ever framed it into a clear thought, for all I know, I believe Lybbi felt, to some degree, betrayed. I don?t believe that my leaving was as important to her as the departure of others, more significant than I. My departure was only of importance in that I was the last to go, save Lybbi herself. From Lybbi?s point of view this was perfectly justified, and if I was in her shoes, I probably would?ve felt the same.

12. Money up front? Yes, this was policy, no exceptions, $2500 when I left. Again, personally, a very major point of contention.
The simple truth is, I took kids into the program in Cleveland and Fort Lauderdale with no money up front (or anywhere else) from parents, and could not be trusted to discontinue this practice if Art, Shelly or Lybbi weren?t around. The most severe understatement to date from me - ?this did not go over well.?
I wouldn?t budge on this issue so despite continuing to be senior staff, needless to say, I was removed from Cleveland and the intake process, except in an advisory capacity re the kids themselves. A direct quote to the staff and Joan Bryant, by Lybbi, ?John is no longer allowed to take people on the program without me, Art or Shelly okaying it.? Obviously, there was a lot more actually said, but there is no reason to go into that here. This didn?t help my attitude, but it did not, one iota, lessen my loyalty to The Seed, just to these particular individuals.
I truly do understand how many here cannot make this distinction, but to me it was always crystal clear.

I gotta tell you, in writing this post, reflecting about things I haven?t given a thought to in 20+ years, I?ve come to realize, to his credit, Art did put up with a lot of shit from me.

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The Seed Discussion Forum / as*****
« on: September 21, 2005, 04:45:00 PM »
Ginger,
No I don't. As I told Greg when we spoke on the phone, burn-out, though not the primary reason, was definitely a contributing factor to my leaving.

14
The Seed Discussion Forum / as*****
« on: September 21, 2005, 04:41:00 PM »
Marshall,
I promise I will respond to this post and others of your's as soon as I can, I just don't have time right now. Sorry.

15
The Seed Discussion Forum / as*****
« on: September 21, 2005, 12:39:00 PM »
As long as i'm here...
Frolicking at beach parties? Never happened, not me anyway. The very infrequent softball games that occurred later at SR84, everyone who wanted to could participate.
It is funny how things appear, based upon where you're looking from.
Here's what I remember. Working 80-90, sometimes 100+ hours per week, never in 6 years having more that one day a week off, never having one single day off for almost 3 years. Being called in the middle of the night and told to get in my car and drive to St. Pete, being called in the middle of the night and told to drive back to Ft. Lauderdale, driving back and forth between Ft. Pierce and Ft. Laud. every single day, being called (this night I remember well for personal reasons) around 1:00 a.m. and being told to make the 6:50 a.m. flight to Cleveland. Ahhh...to frolick and play.
Like I said, a lot changes depending upon the view in front of you.
And please, try to refrain from believing, that simply because I've assumed a pro-Seed position here, I'm incapable of realizing and appreciating what you saw/see.
One thing that does confound be about this site is that in the mist of all the intellectual  debate and inflamed emotions, simple respect and/or understanding of the condition human seems to be lost. Too bad.

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