Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 20, 2005, 07:55:00 AM
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why should he apologies. all everyone here does is throw insults at one another. he puts up a post, about his experience with people he knew and what happens to them and gets called an asshole for it.
yes this website is clearly a free exchange of thoughts and ideas. or we have someone who'll keep posting something to the effect of "john will never be back, we'll never see him again" , "oh did i say that i didnt mean it, welcome back john", "asshole"
yes this encourages someone to post on this site. sure everyone else you guys want to talk to will love to come here so they can simply be called an "asshole" everytime they make a post. i dont care if john is right or wrong, or kind or not, but this is getting ridiculous. of course if someone calls the wrong person an "asshole" then we all get a stern warning. but if we call the right person an "asshole" we can have a nice day. and people wonder why some people refer to people speaking with "venom" on this site? then they get come down on for wanting to get along, and told to go elsewhere, because of course everyone was just "disagreeing" no harm in that. we are all allowed to say what we want, which of course only applies if you are the right person saying the right thing, because if you happen to be john you are an asshole everytime you open your mouth. of course if john had called someone an asshole after a post similar to his everyone would have been all over him. i know we all have our own personal views and leanings but this is pathetic. we can insult people all we want? then whats the point of this website? its certainly not discussion. not in everyones case. i know some people are probably mad at john (brilliant obersvation on my part) and have personal experiences with him from the past. but at some point enoughs enough. its funny to me how the people who are admonished for "their attacks" are using disagreeing with a select few. i watch a guy write a thoughtful post a few months back in a thread i think that was about John P and it gets pointed out right away that "he's attacking dispite his "flowery words". now he used no swearing and wrote a gentle post, but was clearly on the wrong side of the arguement. call john an asshole all you want and no problem. we just wont say anything.
of course it wont matter what i say.i am anon and thus deserviing of insults myself. of course the reason i have never bothered registering for the site is shit like this.
by the way, i do not agree with everything john says, or perhaps even a lot of it. i specifically disagree with a great deal of it. i am not saying this because i am a john u supporter. simply i am sick to death of unprovoked insults.
and i am sure i'll get a reply saying somethign to the effect of " of course you are doing it also". if anyone can figure out a way for me to post a strong disagreement to what i consider to be a nasty set of posts i am happy to hear it.
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Unprovoked insults?
Go back and read his initial insulting post and follow ups.
You sure you read that thread right?
As far as warnings, there is no "language" filter. Cuss away. I have said repeatedly that posts that soley have content meant to attack someone won't stand. Neither John's or The follow up posts qualify.
Rest assured you can say anything you want in this forum. I have deleted exactly two posts...both of them vile and with sexually demeaning content and no other content whatsoever.
The warnings have been few and far between, and the last one was on someone that normally agrees with me. I won't say who because they posted anon and were in a futile exchange with someone who was anonymously trying to incite problems here. You wanna try moderating this site? It isn't all that easy, and the pay frankly is a little weak. But hell, I still enjoy it so on with the show!
But you are right, enough is enough. Anyone with balls big enough to come on here and start telling people they need their "diaper changed" in all caps deserves to called an asshole because frankly, that is how they are behaving. I think Marc nailed that one. But in any event, whether you agree or not, I am not in the habit of moderating content, only vile attacks. I hope that helps you understand. I have been called worse than that many times and the posts stand. Ginger, who owns the bandwith, has been repeatedly insulted and the posts all stand. I think you aren't seeing this too clearly.
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he was called an asshole previous to his all caps post. his first post was not provoking.
i am not saying moderating this site is easy at all. i think quite the contrary.
neither you nor ginger should be insulted as well. you both created this site (i believe) and deserve respect for doing so, and maintaining it.
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I too am sick of unprovoked insults. An example would be in the very thread we are speaking of Stripe answered John and then Thom came back and suggested she check herself into charter.
Now, how is this provoked by Thom... who incidentially had just puckered up to John U just like he was a 1 week newcomer trying to get permission to take a pee?
some of this stuff is just childish to be sure. But it will only stop when the people who practice it decide to act like adults and open their minds to the fact that other people have different ideas than them. This message site is about the exchange of those ideas.
John was and is welcomed on this site with open arms. I set an Unprecedented deal for him, an entire thread where he could answer questions with no negative feedback, and he declined but instead choose to continue to try to belittle people. His choice. But the inference that this site is one sided I take Extreme exception too. I have always made this site open for everyone and encouraged everyone to participate. I still do. This site is for Everyone that went to the seed and is not about any one individual or any one set of ideas.
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On 2005-09-20 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"he was called an asshole previous to his all caps post. his first post was not provoking.
i am not saying moderating this site is easy at all. i think quite the contrary.
neither you nor ginger should be insulted as well. you both created this site (i believe) and deserve respect for doing so, and maintaining it. "
Well, looking back your right and maybe Mark's comment was over the top, but it didn't violate any specific "Vile comment" rule.
But do tell, just who do you suppose John meant this comment for.
"I should also mention, specifically for those of you with crystal balls in your heads or just enamored with your own musings,"
After titleing the thread "for Marshall and Greg".
And pray tell, what exactly did I say that set him off pretending like he was staff again? Read my post..no insults just a straight to the point comment. I think I know what John attempted to do there..lay out a point, wait for a response and pounce...just like he used to do when leading group. That duck don't fly here. we are not scared children, and from what I see, most of us here know far more about how the seed operated than JU ever did.
John has been the one provoking negativity here. That is obvious and outright blatant. His hostility is seething right under the surface and comes screaming out in bold type and insultive prose.
And thank you for acknowledging what you did. Please take a look at the mission statement whidch can be found on the front page of fornits..
"The seed discussion forum is for survivors of the Seed and Seed copycat programs and for other interested parties. The moderator and owner of this forum accept no responsiblity for content. This is a first admendment based open discussion and all opinions and topics are welcome. By posting or reading, you agree to these terms."
I wrote those words before I ever posted the first post in the forum. It has always been my vision that I would provide a place for us all to discuss this, and Unprecendented forum where all ideas would be welcome and we could actually all come to terms with what sort of animal/beast we were really involved in.
For the record, this is my forum and I asked Ginger to create it so I could run it, but I did nothing but piggyback on Ginger's software and bandwith. She runs the server, she pays for the bandwith, she deals with a lot of crap all for free. Why? Because it is her vision to provide an outlet where people can discuss all about various aspects of the teen help industry, where the truth can find its way. This is all a public service...all of it.
Anon, go ahead and register. It has been my experience that people that give respect around here get it back for the most part, regardless of what side of the issue they are on.
While that isn't always true, it is mostly true. I am doing the best I can.
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::rocker::
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I think we can. One of the biggest catalyst to problems here is people sniping at other people anonymously. I think accountablity goes a long way.
lets all try to make an effort to speak with our handles...I think that will help.
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Honestly, I think the big disconnect is failure in some people to distinguis between the cult and the individual current or former member.
Criticize the cult and the devout take it personally. And, most often, they respond according to perfectly acceptable cult standards for how to treat an apostate. It's ok to lie to them, insult them... whatever. They're just bitter, ungrateful druggy losers, after all, who's lives are all screwed up, &Ect. Then they'll say they're trying to help us losers see the light and, astonishingly after all these years, they probably believe it!
Then they wonder why people take offense. :roll:
But, nasty as it gets around here sometimes, I do think it's valuable and says a lot about our weird little shared history here.
By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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Greg states:
?But the inference that this site is one sided I take Extreme exception too.?
?John has been the one provoking negativity here.?
Marcwordsmith states:
?John, every time you post, you just reveal yourself to be a bigger jackass.?
?Asshole.?
?He was, in a very real sense, a career criminal.?
?He came, he saw, he farted stupendously once or twice, and he split.?
Greg?s response: Nada
Greg states:
?But the inference that this site is one sided I take Extreme exception too.?
?John has been the one provoking negativity here.?
Stripe states:
?John U: Fuelaw said -By the way John Underwood is a disgraceful human being !
I completely concur.?
?-it just goes to show that you are a sheep - a follower, a bleater. BAAAHHHH Someone who has no original thoughts whatsoever. BAAAHHHH?
?John Underwood: Look at your life and tell me why are all those whom you have identified in such states of misfortune? What is it about YOU that brings, swirls, and holds all of this misfortune, sadness, death and confusion to you and the lives of those you touch??
It should be noted that in a post Stripe acknowledges she never actually knew John U.
Greg?s response: Nada
Greg states:
?But the inference that this site is one sided I take Extreme exception too.?
?John has been the one provoking negativity here.?
Fuelaw states:
?Low rent maggots, such as yourself,?
?scum of the earth maggots like Robert Chun and John Underwood.?
?John Underwood is a disgraceful human being !?
Greg?s response:
?I think it important to note that Fuelaw is not now some worthless Junkie?
Yes, I believe Greg exemplifies impartiality, and readily identifies the source of negativity.
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greg, just to be be clear. we have two different anon's posting here.
i havent had a chance to respond to your responses. i probably wont tonight since i am just droping a quick line, but wanted to put this one up real quick and to state i appreciate your replies to me.
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anon 1, thanks for your reply.
Anon 2, it is clear what you are and have been trying to do here, divide us into two camps. It won't work. Nice try. Why don't you go back and list every attack against Ginger or Stripe that I also didn't respond too?
Am I to react to every post? Am I supposed to be some babysitter of every word posted on this site? Sorry, taint gonna.
happen Unless someone is posting vile content or a thread is getting out of control, I stay out of it unless I feel my PERSONAL opinion is justified. I am a participant here and my opinion is neither more valid or less valid than yours.
In the example you site above with Fuelaw, a very serious claim of abuse was alleged. It wasn't Vile content. My post was to preempt a bunch of "your a druggie loser" type posts and to keep a very unprecidented thread ON TOPIC. Also note I never took a position on the veracity of his statement on whether John U abused him or not. In the context of his claims some anger is understandable. Before JU ever posted one word here I told him to expect some anger and he said he Knew it would come and he still chose to post. Unfortunately, JU never answered the abuse claim but instead choose to just insult all lawyers in general.
Now Anon, go do your homework and try to poke some more holes in our online community. It has been your mission for the last month, afterall, to disrupt and belittle this forum and to anonymously attack Ginger, Marc and Stripe, eh? Don't forget I see all your postings whether you post them under your handle or post them "anon". Wanna list my responses to your anon attacks? They don't exist.
You wanna talk about partiality? Go look in the mirror.
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Correction, I believe the abuse claim was specifically addressed in John U's very 1st message board post.
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On 2005-09-20 07:43:00, GregFL wrote:
"lets all try to make an effort to speak with our handles...I think that will help.
"
I just tried speaking with my handle, but I got no response. :cry:
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This is truly remarkable. I've never seen a forum where anonymous posters get to sound off so much and are taken so seriously.
And now even Greg is saying that I "may have been over the top"?
All right then I'll explain myself. Probably a bad idea, but we'll see what happens . . .
Dear Anonymous, and Greg, and anyone else who thinks my "asshole" post to JU was "over the top" . . .
I wrote what I wrote in response to the following comments by John Underwood:
"I should also mention, specifically for those of you with crystal balls in your heads or just enamored with your own musings, at age 15, not a single one, NONE, of the aforementioned, (including myself), had ever used an illegal drug. Some had used alcohol, myself included, but most, nothing!"
Do you get that this was snide and condescending language, from a man who has a FUCKING UNMITIGATED NERVE to sneer at ANYONE on this website? Do you get the assinine, ludicrous insinuation--that because he and his friends hadn't used drugs yet at 15, and they all became heroin addicts, that means that the rest of us who were imprisoned in the Seed at 14 or 15 (or whatever) would probably have become heroin addicts too?
Do you get that when he talks about the "REAL PEOPLE" (the all-caps being his own) he knew, he just might be implying that our own experiences of abuse were insubstantial and negligible in comparison, not as "REAL" as the sufferings of his dear departed friends? Do you get that he's pulling out a sacred cow here, and trying to slap us around a bit with his sanctimonious grief?
Do you get that all this heavy handedness was rather Seed-like?
And do you get that his subsequent raving maniacal all-caps abusive post was the real John, shrieking in impotent fury, because people weren't buying his latest act?
Greg, I am disappointed in you, my friend.
I will acknowledge (though it's always dangerous to concede ANYTHING when you're around Seedlings) that I've been a little schizophrenic in terms of regretting some of my harsh language, apologizing for it, then being harsh again. Here's why that has happened. I have a belief system that says it's never really okay to speak unkindly. But that belief system is sorely tested by the likes of unrepentant abuser assholes like John Underwood. And so no more apologies. I make you that promise.
And Anonymous, for God's sake, use your name already. What's up with that? What are you afraid of?
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marcwordsmith is your real name?
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good job trying to put the "peer pressure" on greg did you learn that at the seed?
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Marc I agree with what you are saying, but anon has a point about calling people names. We should all refrain. I didn't say anything about your post, only the asshole comment, and This no way validates anything John posted in that thread. I susbstantially agree with everything else you said.
I am guilty also. I think we can all improve. I also think JU's original post was intended as bait and his come down on ya rap, in retrospect, is kinda comical. Who does he think we are, a bunch of subservient seedlings?
Give me a break.
:grin: :grin:
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And yes, anon, grow a sack and start using a handle.
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Stripe states:
?John U: Fuelaw said -By the way John Underwood is a disgraceful human being !
I completely concur.?
?-it just goes to show that you are a sheep - a follower, a bleater. BAAAHHHH Someone who has no original thoughts whatsoever. BAAAHHHH?
?John Underwood: Look at your life and tell me why are all those whom you have identified in such states of misfortune? What is it about YOU that brings, swirls, and holds all of this misfortune, sadness, death and confusion to you and the lives of those you touch??
It should be noted that in a post Stripe acknowledges she never actually knew John U.
Anon - whoever you are:
I knew this guy as well as any kid knew any staff member. NOT AT ALL. Perhaps, whoever you are, you were lucky enough to "pesonally" know them and folick with them at the beach and in other arranged activites. Was there some rule that we were supposed to be personal friends with our captors? If so, I was never told about it. These people made decisions about the events in my life and I can guarn-danm-tee you they knew nothing about me then. NOT ONE THING.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not bitter about the missed pic-a-nics, slave labor, arranged ball games and perverted sexual segregation. I'm glad I was deemed a person not worthy of insider treatment. It makes the recovery from the event so much easier.
You have the benefit of the search and copy on this forum. I'm glad what I write strikes you so - if it upsets you, there's probabaly a reason. Again, look inside and ask why. Do I think that people who still spout program dogma and run tired old psychological games are sheep? You bet.
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As long as i'm here...
Frolicking at beach parties? Never happened, not me anyway. The very infrequent softball games that occurred later at SR84, everyone who wanted to could participate.
It is funny how things appear, based upon where you're looking from.
Here's what I remember. Working 80-90, sometimes 100+ hours per week, never in 6 years having more that one day a week off, never having one single day off for almost 3 years. Being called in the middle of the night and told to get in my car and drive to St. Pete, being called in the middle of the night and told to drive back to Ft. Lauderdale, driving back and forth between Ft. Pierce and Ft. Laud. every single day, being called (this night I remember well for personal reasons) around 1:00 a.m. and being told to make the 6:50 a.m. flight to Cleveland. Ahhh...to frolick and play.
Like I said, a lot changes depending upon the view in front of you.
And please, try to refrain from believing, that simply because I've assumed a pro-Seed position here, I'm incapable of realizing and appreciating what you saw/see.
One thing that does confound be about this site is that in the mist of all the intellectual debate and inflamed emotions, simple respect and/or understanding of the condition human seems to be lost. Too bad.
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On 2005-09-21 09:39:00, John Underwood wrote:
And please, try to refrain from believing, that simply because I've assumed a pro-Seed position here, I'm incapable of realizing and appreciating what you saw/see.
That's not the reason. I and others have noted plenty of more objective, sensible reasons for drawing such a conclusion. For example, you blame our parents for getting the misguided notion that most teenagers were druggies in need of treatment.
Well I'm calling bullshit on that! WTF did you think would happen? You (yes you!) got them all scared to death that we'd all die w/o your mystical magical cure and then directly instructed them to go out and recruit all of our friends and neighbors. You tricked children into confessing to things they'd never done and then used those false confessions to convince the public that our society had a big, big crisis on our hands (w/ a capital C that rhymes w/ D that stands for DRUGS!) that only those with special "awareness" (you and your fellow cult members) could see.
You did this. I was there for all those revival style open meeting speeches about saving the world. It pisses me off that you would dare to try and dodge your complicity in this and lay it, instead, on our parents. On the other hand, you're right. They were fools one and all for ever trusting you. But that was their only crime in this. They believed you when they should have known better. That's forgivable. You? Sorry, at this late date you need to take responsibility for your actions.
One thing that does confound be about this site is that in the mist of all the intellectual debate and inflamed emotions, simple respect and/or understanding of the condition human seems to be lost. Too bad.
I think maybe you're working from an "exclusive" definition of terms like respect and understanding. Any relationship that starts w/ a strip search is devoid of real respect. I don't think there's any way around that. Unless, possibly, you eventually come around to a place of real understanding and apologize for some of your mistakes. But you don't even want to hear about it. Anybody tries to tell you and you just do the program soft-shoe and suggest that they seek treatment of a diaper change.
The government is much more interested in preserving the purity of its ideology than it is in allowing patients to get effective medicine.
-- Ethan B. Russo, neurologist at Western Montana Clinic
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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Maybe the beach parties came after you John. I specificaly remember seeing Art, shirt off, with a bunch of teenybopper staff girlies flitting around him as I drove by down A1A. They used to hang right off the road...
Also, my encounter with Art at the pool started with me seeing art in the middle of the pool smiling and covorting with the female staff members.Lets put this in perspective. Art was what? 45 maybe? The staffers...18, 19, 20 all in two piece bikinis and Art being the only man there. Art and these female staffers all in the pool with Art the center of attention.
Is that a little strange? Maybe they slaved worked you so Art could get a little R&R alone with the female staffers at Cranbrook?
Is any of this a little off kilter? Not what you expect to see in normal society?
I would pistol whip any 45-50 year old man that was in a position of authority overy my 19 year old daughter that in their time off were in their skivys together in a pool...
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Anon, Marc is my real name. I also have a profile on this site. I'm not hiding behind my handle. You shouldn't hide either.
By the way, I know there is more than one anonymous poster. I respect the tone taken by the person who began this thread, although I disagree with that person's views and I do feel that putting forth strong views anonymously lacks . . . well, lacks something.
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John, this is one problem with simply dividing everyone here into pro and con seed. If you haven't already, take time to read some of the posts here from people who were at the Seed in the years after you left. Are you aware of the changes? We have to ask 'which' seed anytime we offer either praise or criticism.
This may even offer a basis for agreement as to certain critiques of the program. For example, what do you think of the requirement that everyone remain on their program...for life...never graduating? Of needing Art's approval as to who you could choose to date or marry? Staff pressuring people to have abortions? Determining what sort of job / career was permissable to you? Dividing men and women as to 'manly' work / hobbies and woman's work? Men being told that studying art was for sissies or women? The forming of an inner circle or clique?
I remember staff exactly as you describe in that post...overworked and being payed a tiny stipend. During our time there, little or no emphasis was placed upon acquiring wealth or status. This too seems to have changed markedly in later years. Can you at least admit that the Seed (post Underwood) seems to have become a self-enclosed cult-like group? Would you want Lybbi telling you who you could marry and how many kids you could have? BTW, I have no direct knowledge of any of this since I wasn't there at the time. However, there are several people that were there during those years that post here. Take some time to read and digest some of the posts concerning this part of the program. I'm sure those who were there would be happy to verify (or refute) the points I brought up or answer any questions you might have about the later Seed.
One change that I do have direct knowledge of is the change in financial arrangements. I spoke with Lybbi on the phone a couple of years after I graduated (funny, she refused to speak to you but talked to me, huh? :grin: ) about getting a relative into the program. I often heard that money was not an issue when getting people into the seed and parents that could not afford the program were allowed to make payments. (wasn't it this way when you were there?) I was surprised when Lybbi informed me that no-one could be admitted without full cash-upfront payment. I told her that this was a single (widowed) working mother trying to get her son into the program. Lybbi was unmoved by this and insisted anyone could find a way to scrape together the money (can't recall if it was 4 or 5K) necessary to pay for the program in advance. The mother couldn't afford this so the guy never went in...thank goodness.
He was an older teen who drank too much and smoked pot. Had the usual 'bad' (read adolescent) attitude. I guess he's another rare exception that you spoke of....since he's married, has a steady job, raised an adopted child and is a grandad now. He rarely drinks and hasn't smoked pot in years.
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On 2005-09-21 10:59:00, GregFL wrote:
"Maybe the beach parties came after you John.
Nope. I remember there was a wealthy family who owned a little undeveloped stretch of "Millionaire Mile"; A1A in Deerfield Beach. There the Seedlings would go as a group and play. Maybe John was just too busy dogging himself out to attend and too sleep deprived to have given it any lucid thought.
In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller
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Quote from Marshall:
"This may even offer a basis for agreement as to certain critiques of the program. For example, what do you think of the requirement that everyone remain on their program...for life...never graduating? Of needing Art's approval as to who you could choose to date or marry? Staff pressuring people to have abortions? Determining what sort of job / career was permissable to you? Dividing men and women as to 'manly' work / hobbies and woman's work? Men being told that studying art was for sissies or women? The forming of an inner circle or clique?"
Amen. All of that I personally experienced. As a 25 year old guy, supposedly a 'Seedling' in good standing, being told what to do or not do, always in fear of being rejected, clearing everything with staff, being told that I wasn't worthy of a relationship, being told that friends of mine who suddenly disappeared were 'full of shit,' being told that I was an 'intellectual asshole,' or that 'opinions are like assholes, everyone has them,' or 'ours is not question why, ours is but to do or die' - after a while, this outweighed the commeraderie and 'esrit de corps' that drew me into the Seed, despite my misgivings.
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Antigen, that happened a couple of times and that may have occured before JU ever came on the program. That was Lybbi's parents property-I believe.
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Marshall,
I promise I will respond to this post and others of your's as soon as I can, I just don't have time right now. Sorry.
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On 2005-09-21 09:39:00, John Underwood wrote:
Working 80-90, sometimes 100+ hours per week, never in 6 years having more that one day a week off, never having one single day off for almost 3 years. Being called in the middle of the night and told to get in my car and drive to St. Pete, being called in the middle of the night and told to drive back to Ft. Lauderdale, driving back and forth between Ft. Pierce and Ft. Laud. every single day, being called (this night I remember well for personal reasons) around 1:00 a.m. and being told to make the 6:50 a.m. flight to Cleveland. Ahhh...to frolick and play.
Honestly, John, do you think you or anybody could possibly have been thinking clearly while keeping up w/ that kind of grind ?Everybody's lost just waiting to be found. Everyone's a thought just waiting to fade.
-- Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins
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Ginger,
No I don't. As I told Greg when we spoke on the phone, burn-out, though not the primary reason, was definitely a contributing factor to my leaving.
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ironically i'll still be posting this as "anon". marc, i dont get the whole "you are afraid thing" simply because one is posting as an "anon". personally i think you just like making these sort of statements. considering, i can make a username, post whatever i want, make another username continue a different series of posts after that and no one would be any the wiser. yes the admins can probably try to pull ip addresses but since i can manipulate that as well if had nothing better to do in my life i could push that as well. my point only being there is plenty of anonimity built into this automatically.
since i had never previously posted at this site previously and posted the other morning with some time presure i didnt really consider taking the time to make an account. the other evening i was just reading the threads and again not having much time wrote a very short post. so this makes three, and hopefulyl by my 4th i'll have a handle so i am no longer anonymus. even though i sorta still will be........
also i wonder why someone's who post as an "anon" post has no value????? if someone says somethign right arent they still right? if they are wrong and have a handle do they become right? is everyone's post who ever was an anon valueless? do they get retroactive value if they go get a handle?
and in case anyone had any mistaken impression of my thoughts and views i would not be considered a seed loyalist in any degree, but i am going to guess its been assumed i am. of course not being one doesnt make me anymore right or wrong then i was before.
i'm off for now but will return baptized so to speak in a few days.
and again for clarity, mine is the original post in this thread and the second post to greg differntiating me from the otehr poster (posters?)
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On 2005-09-21 16:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
also i wonder why someone's who post as an "anon" post has no value?????
Because when you post anon, no one can tell if what you say today is consistant with what you said yesterday. There's still value in it, of course. But it's just sort of silly to try to carry on a conversation w/ a bunch of participants unless you can keep some sort of reliable track of who is saying what.
But this is far from demonstrating that the authorities must interpose to suppress these vices by commercial prohibitions, nor is it by any means evident that such intervention on the part of the government is really capable of suppressing them or that, even if this end could be attained, it might not therewith open up a Pandora's box of other dangers, no less mischievous than alcoholism and morphinism.
Ludwig Von Mises
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i would agree with that ginger. i just dont think that's what was being implied at the time.
promise. someday soon i will have an actual name. now i just need to pick soemthing...hmmmm.....
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how about fire man or butane lighter?
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Sure, whatever. If you want, I can try and locate all your anon posts and assign them to your new username. Only if you want me to, though.
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... miamithem' (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/040303082X/circlofmiamithem') target='_new'>H. G. Wells
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Hi Marshall,
Sorry for the tardiness, ... there is life outside of Fornits, but as promised....
1. Of course some of the statements I?ve made here have been divisive. When having opinions that offend certain persons what else is to be expected. I?ve offered just as many statements that I believe any reasonable person would consider, at the very least, conciliatory. Though I certainly have not read ever single post, in making a cursory search of this site from the beginning, division and controversy existed long before me. By their own definition(s) they?ve created a perfect ?cult? right here. Those who resist their ?cult? will always be viewed as dividers. Thoroughly read the posts here and I believe you?ll find that every criticism leveled at The Seed, it?s staff, is the very essence of the logic, train of thought, that has been adopted here. As you?ve so astutely pointed out in many of your posts, there?s not much that is truly new or original, just made over to look like something else.
2. Program for life? If you mean that literally, of course that?s absurd, never should have been advocated. Even more than absurd, directly counter to the very purpose of the program, though I don't personally remember ever hearing that.
3. It was never Art?s business who someone married. I married a Seed grad a over year before leaving. It was certainly, at best, frowned upon (and unwanted) before the marriage, but to their credit, it was supported with sincerity after the fact.
4. Abortions? I missed that. (for the record - I am as adamantly pro-choice as a male can be)
5. While a person was still on the program we thought working at head shops, volunteering for NORMAL, that kind of thing, was probably a bad idea. Long term career - individual decision.
6. Gender bias - absurd, and hypocritical on Art's part, most senior staff were female. However, Art was the product of a generation where gender roles were determined by the contemporary society.
7. Art is for sissies? Now do you mean studying Art Barker, or aesthetics? I would consider both worthwhile endeavors, though the later would probably be more beneficial in the long term. Too bad more here don?t see that.
8. I?ve never seen anyplace, school, the workplace, The Seed Discussion Forum, et al, where inner circles, cliques don?t exist. Again, too bad, part of the condition human.
9. After I left? I did give my opinion about this in my first post. After that, I really just don?t know, (no firsthand info), and I?m certainly not going draw definitive conclusions based solely on information gathered here.
10. Lybbi? I can only speak for myself. I never let Lybbi tell me anything. In good conscience, a personal note is required here. Once upon a time, Lybbi and I were very good friends, we loved each other like brother and sister, better maybe. Art often referred to us this way. We fought often, and hard, but as siblings usually do, we forgave and made-up. About a year, maybe a year and a half before I left, the fighting continued, became progressively worse and more frequent, but the forgiving and making-up was no longer a component of our relationship. In retrospect, this was inevitable. The common ground we both once stood upon rapidly separated below our feet, leaving only the gulf. There was only one life jacket at The Seed, and neither of us particularly wanted to drown, so...
11. Lybbi speaking to you not me? Well, the above should answer part of that, but I do believe this: Though she might not acknowledge this or may not have ever framed it into a clear thought, for all I know, I believe Lybbi felt, to some degree, betrayed. I don?t believe that my leaving was as important to her as the departure of others, more significant than I. My departure was only of importance in that I was the last to go, save Lybbi herself. From Lybbi?s point of view this was perfectly justified, and if I was in her shoes, I probably would?ve felt the same.
12. Money up front? Yes, this was policy, no exceptions, $2500 when I left. Again, personally, a very major point of contention.
The simple truth is, I took kids into the program in Cleveland and Fort Lauderdale with no money up front (or anywhere else) from parents, and could not be trusted to discontinue this practice if Art, Shelly or Lybbi weren?t around. The most severe understatement to date from me - ?this did not go over well.?
I wouldn?t budge on this issue so despite continuing to be senior staff, needless to say, I was removed from Cleveland and the intake process, except in an advisory capacity re the kids themselves. A direct quote to the staff and Joan Bryant, by Lybbi, ?John is no longer allowed to take people on the program without me, Art or Shelly okaying it.? Obviously, there was a lot more actually said, but there is no reason to go into that here. This didn?t help my attitude, but it did not, one iota, lessen my loyalty to The Seed, just to these particular individuals.
I truly do understand how many here cannot make this distinction, but to me it was always crystal clear.
I gotta tell you, in writing this post, reflecting about things I haven?t given a thought to in 20+ years, I?ve come to realize, to his credit, Art did put up with a lot of shit from me.
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On 2005-09-22 09:19:00, John Underwood wrote:
"Hi Marshall,
Sorry for the tardiness, ... there is life outside of Fornits, but as promised....
me. By their own definition(s) they?ve created a perfect ?cult? right here. Those who resist their ?cult? will always be viewed as dividers.
MAJOR BULLSHIT. Not by any stretch of any definition is this website a "cult".
Either you are ignorant of what a cult is or are still trying to divide us further and/or try to belittle anyone who isn't "pro seed". Since you ran a cult for some 7 years, I can only assume it is the latter.
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Yes it is, Greg. As we speak, the SIBSmobile is headed to John's location to put him back on front row in the new and improved, all ages Straight, Inc. By the Sea. v2.0 http://fornits.com/SIBS/ (http://fornits.com/SIBS/)
Intake staff will, of course, have to evaluate Mrs. Underwood and any offspring to determine which side of the open meeting room they'll be sitting on.
:rofl: Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.
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Talk about Crude and Rude.
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Not half, by far, as rude and crude as some of the gross shit I remember under discussion in open meetings. I can only imagine how much more raw things must have been when you didn't have "guests" and newcomer families in the audience.
What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud
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Now I really know that you have no idea of what you are talking about. People never even swore at an open meeting. That was even one of the rules.
Now think really hard was that at "straight " or at the seed.
Come on you can do it. Think really hard. :silly:
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I don't give a flyin' run at a rollin' donut what you think.
There now. I didn't swear. But it's a pretty raw sentiment now, isn't it?
I remember girls (including my painfully shy sister) standing up w/ a mic, addressing a roomful of peers and strangers, describing themselves as sluts and whores and divulging all sorts of very private, ugly stuff.
BTW, the "no cussing in front of parents and executeive staff" policy was also carried over into Straight. Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.
--Bob Marley
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We never had the "executive staff " part.
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Hey, if girls "chicks" said that it was before April of'72.
because I definatly would have remembered that.
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Yeah ya did. Art and Shelly, Mrs. P and the BOD were executive staff. You just didn't use that term.
Busy, curious, thirsty fly, Drink with me, and drink as I.
-- William Oldys (1696-1761): On a Fly drinking out of a Cup of Ale.
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On 2005-09-21 11:44:00, marshall wrote:
"
This may even offer a basis for agreement as to certain critiques of the program. For example, what do you think of the requirement that everyone remain on their program...for life...never graduating? Of needing Art's approval as to who you could choose to date or marry? Staff pressuring people to have abortions? Determining what sort of job / career was permissable to you? Dividing men and women as to 'manly' work / hobbies and woman's work? Men being told that studying art was for sissies or women? The forming of an inner circle or clique?
I remember staff exactly as you describe in that post...overworked and being payed a tiny stipend. During our time there, little or no emphasis was placed upon acquiring wealth or status. This too seems to have changed markedly in later years. Can you at least admit that the Seed (post Underwood) seems to have become a self-enclosed cult-like group? Would you want Lybbi telling you who you could marry and how many kids you could have? BTW, I have no direct knowledge of any of this since I wasn't there at the time. However, there are several people that were there during those years that post here. Take some time to read and digest some of the posts concerning this part of the program. I'm sure those who were there would be happy to verify (or refute) the points I brought up or answer any questions you might have about the later Seed.
:tup: :tup: :tup:
Funny, how John really dodged these questions, when in reality he has no idea how things were all those years after he left. I find it even more revelaing that he metions he could never beleive stories from others on this site, but we are supposed to trust in his vision of over 20 years ago. Bottom line, if things were so great he would have never left and at the very least would have kept in touch with those he felt he had such sibling bonds with. I'm not surprised at how confidently he puts himself at the same level as Lybbi (back then) letting us know that she really wasn't match for him, maybe just for all the other peasants. I'm quite sure he can still reach for the phone and call not only her, but many others he can recconect with.
The great mystery is what he would have been like had he stuck it out with Lybbi. It seems to me more like that not even that warehouse was big enough for two egos of these proportions (Make that 3 or 4). As he mentioned, many had already jumped ship, so once he was out of the way the rest is history since Art and Lybbi did know very well how to reign over the followers.
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quote-----------------
<"2. Program for life? If you mean that literally, of course that?s absurd, never should have been advocated. Even more than absurd, directly counter to the very purpose of the program, though I don't personally remember ever hearing that.">
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It wasn't just advocated, it was required. I have no reason to doubt the posters here who have asserted this. You might see Terrance :lol: as a reliable source, ask him. He's confirmed this here as well. So many of the later changes amazed me as well when I first heard of them.
(btw ft. lauderdale, I'm picking about your name, not your credibility here. Terrance is almost as weird as marshall!)
quote------------------------------
3. <"It was never Art?s business who someone married. I married a Seed grad a over year before leaving. It was certainly, at best, frowned upon (and unwanted) before the marriage, but to their credit, it was supported with sincerity after the fact.">
--------------------------------------
According to several here, this too changed and Art or staff had to give the OK for anyone (remember we're talking about what you or I would call 'graduates' or long-time members) to even date, much less marry. I realize this wasn't true when you were there. I remember the announcement of your marriage and have written about that here.
quote--------------------
<"Long term career - individual decision.">
--------------------------
You would think, huh? I hope some of the later-day members (sounds like a cool name for a sect) will step in here and again give their stories on these issues.
quote--------------------------
7. Art is for sissies? Now do you mean studying Art Barker, or aesthetics?">
--------------------------------
Aesthetics. Members, especially male members were discouraged from this unmanly pursuit, it seems.
quote-----------------------
<" I?ve never seen anyplace, school, the workplace, The Seed Discussion Forum, et al, where inner circles, cliques don?t exist. Again, too bad, part of the condition human.">
-----------------------------
I agree....but. That is really funny. The Seed had rules against cliqueing and I recall raps about how our druggie friends weren't really friends...we just cliqued together. It was seen as a bad thing. I can only imagine the response of you or any staff member to a newcomer standing up and saying what you just wrote. "Sure my friends & I were part of a clique...it's the human condition...too bad!"
quote------------------------
<" I?m certainly not going draw definitive conclusions based solely on information gathered here">
-----------------------------
I understand. Perhaps you might have some other sources for confirmation that you would feel more confident in trusting. Just thought you might be interested in how the group evolved after you left.
On the flip side, others (I think Robin is one) have stated that the program indeed admitted clients on a sliding pay scale at some point. Perhaps she was talking about you and those you admitted in this way? I well remember walking near the back offices on SR 84 as an oldcomer and hearing you and Lybbi yelling at each other...well actually, I remember her yelling at you and you just sitting there. (I had to glance in to see WTF was going on.)
You've spoken of many of us here having expectations of perfection, with the implication that any criticism of the program (such as the above questions / critiques of the post-underwood seed) implies simple nit-picking or fault-finding for the sake of wallowing in negativity, etc. This seems like a subjective judgement. Where do you draw the line in such matters? It's like criticizing the government or president.
Also, as with the cliqueing response...I wonder how any staff member would have reacted if we had a rap on how selfish or lazy we were pre-seed & someone stood up and said; "You all just have expectations of perfection. My friends & I were only human...we made mistakes. You're just nit-picking our former lives." ? I'm only half-kidding here. That indeed seems to be some of what went on. Any 'bad' thing we thought or did was amplified or exagerated in group and any positive qualities were dismissed. You promoted that sort of thing at the Seed but seem irritated by what you perceive as similar attitudes here. (posters amplifiying or emphasizing the negative aspects of the program and giving short-shrift to any postive aspects)
Thanks muchly for your response.
(BTW, you did my intake. I remember you asking if there was anything else I needed to give to my parents...rings, wallets, etc...I then mentioned that I was wearing a wig and reached up and took it off..revealing a very bald head. The Georgia prison system had just shaved my head a week or so before my Seed intake. My parents had just bought the wig a few days before...one of those 70's hairstyles. You looked so strange...like you were trying your best not to burst out laughing. You told me I couldn't wear it. I remarked; "I guess it is a bit pretenscious". Later, some people that first saw me stand before the group said they thought I'd come from some cult. I kept it for years & used that wig to scare my children while playing with them.)
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The Cult, (not the band), though the former lead singer is now touring and recording with the surviving members of The Doors and that would be worth talking about.
If I post, "The Seed robbed me of my teeage years, made me feel like I was nothing, tormented me, mentally and emotionally, subjected me to humiliation after humiliation, destroyed my relationship with my family, and turned me from all my friends, telling me they were no good, yadda, yadda, yadda."
What I'd get in the way of resposes in nothing but sympathy and understanding.
If I post, "The Seed saved my life, kept me from a certain death, Art, Lybbi and the rest of the staff never showed anything but kindness to me, I thank God for The Seed, and I don't understand all the anymosity, yadda, yadda, yadda."
What I'd get in the way of responses is blasted, told I'm a sheep, brainwashed, or just dismissed.
Real examples of this exist in hige volume, page after page after page right here. Copying and pasting them to verify, ...you already know.
Isn't the "my way or the highway" mentality the actual example you attempt to use in order to demonstrate The Seed being a nothing more than a cult.
Like it or not, what you've got yourself here is, by any interpretation of the word, a "cult."
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I would have to agree with the previous poster's cult conclusion.
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No, that's not so. You just get beat up on by different people depending upon your slant.
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.
--John Adams, U.S. President
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On 2005-09-22 12:26:00, Gutless Bastard wrote:
"I would have to agree with the previous poster's cult conclusion."
No, this is a cult:
http://www.algamus.com/ (http://www.algamus.com/)Redemption: Deliverance of sinners from the penalty of their sins through the murder of their deity against whom they sinned.
--Ambrose Bierce
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Hello again Marshall,
I have no doubt whatsoever that The Seed changed, in my opinion, for the worse after I left. As I've written about, it started well before that. And it is not that I don't believe much of what's written regarding the rule changes, etc, I do, it's just that because I wasn't there, I feel my conmmenting about it is inappropriate, or rather it's more appropriate to hear about from people who were there. And you are absolutely write when you state that much of the rhetoric here loses meaning, lends itself to misinterpretation, because there were so many different Seeds (and I mean in the context you do, not physically). And I was only there for 6 1/2 years. An example, The Seed at Cleveland v. early Andrews Ave., anyone who experienced both knows the differences dwarfed the similarities in no small degree.
I feel like I'm shortchanging you again, but I really do have to go. But as promised previously, we will continue this dialogue.
John
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On 2005-09-22 12:30:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-09-22 12:26:00, Gutless Bastard wrote:
"I would have to agree with the previous poster's cult conclusion."
No, this is a cult: http://www.algamus.com (http://www.algamus.com)"
Who is the leader of this cult, and how does it meet the cult criteria?[ This Message was edited by: Gutless Bastard on 2005-09-22 14:06 ]
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What's "American Society for the New Identity Process"?
People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.
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I don't know...something to do with the Federal Witness Protection Program?
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On 2005-09-22 12:30:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-09-22 12:26:00, Gutless Bastard wrote:
"I would have to agree with the previous poster's cult conclusion."
No, this is a cult:
http://www.algamus.com/ (http://www.algamus.com/)
Wanna bet?
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I'll take a chance...
Ardent advocates of prohibition were obsessed by a zeal that bordered on fanaticism. They supported politicians who voted to outlaw liquor, no matter how much of it they privately consumed, and spurned politicians who voted against prohibition, no matter how sober they were personally.
Sen. Sam Ervin, Preserving The Constitution
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How about International Primal Association?
If you honestly don't know then I think you should ask Rick before you get any more comfy in bed w/ him.
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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On 2005-09-22 12:38:00, John Underwood wrote:
"Hello again Marshall,
I have no doubt whatsoever that The Seed changed, in my opinion, for the worse after I left. As I've written about, it started well before that. And it is not that I don't believe much of what's written regarding the rule changes, etc, I do, it's just that because I wasn't there, I feel my conmmenting about it is inappropriate, or rather it's more appropriate to hear about from people who were there. And you are absolutely write when you state that much of the rhetoric here loses meaning, lends itself to misinterpretation, because there were so many different Seeds (and I mean in the context you do, not physically). And I was only there for 6 1/2 years. An example, The Seed at Cleveland v. early Andrews Ave., anyone who experienced both knows the differences dwarfed the similarities in no small degree.
I feel like I'm shortchanging you again, but I really do have to go. But as promised previously, we will continue this dialogue.
John"
Now here we have some common ground to agree on John...
except not all the changes were for the worse. For example, no longer were nine year to 14 year old children having their anal, vaginal and penal areas examined by staff and then being held against their will for being "dry druggies" or possessing "druggie attitudes", removed from their homes and forced into compliance. This was a step in the right direction IMO.
Going further, some of the extreme regimentation disapeared. No longer were raps really 12 hour indoctrination sessions from 10 to 10 but instead became more relaxed. Even further, someone posted about playing tennis with their oldcomer in the later years. IMAGINE THAT!!!!!!
But on the inverse, when the sheer size of the seed diminished, the true nature of one Art Barker started shining thru loud and clear, and as new recruits started drying up, those left were encouraged to stick around and were having major smoke blown up their arses about being "chosen" and all that other cultie lovie dovie coercise stuff.
Yes the seed changed, and I will reiterate again..the Seed I was involved with in 1973 was a nuthouse. the later on was a nuthouse also, just a different brand.
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On 2005-09-22 11:12:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Now I really know that you have no idea of what you are talking about. People never even swore at an open meeting. That was even one of the rules.
Oh, I remember one particular instance where a kid got screamed at and cursed at in an open meeting in St Pete. The kid after his parents said something to him said something rude back, and one of the staff members yanked the mike away from him and started yelling at him. All the hands in group shot up and down..clickety clickety and all that, but thankfully no one got called on to complete the impromtu "come down on" session in front of the parents.
Major red flag BTW ...When the rules change and behavior is tempered in front of "outsiders".
Think about that.
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On 2005-09-22 19:12:00, Antigen wrote:
"How about International Primal Association?
If you honestly don't know then I think you should ask Rick before you get any more comfy in bed w/ him."
....I don't recall getting comfy in bed with anyone named Rick. I don't think my wife would be too keen on the idea anyway. GB
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Wow, really? You should google your name once in awhile. It'll make you a more effective, convincing liar.
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
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On 2005-09-23 05:03:00, Antigen wrote:
"Wow, really? You should google your name once in awhile. It'll make you a more effective, convincing liar. "
If I google your name, will I be a black belt?
There is nothing here worth lying about.
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Ok, google your name, you'll find this:
http://www.pgcosci.org/wst_page2.html (http://www.pgcosci.org/wst_page2.html)
That should look familiar, unless someone put it out there w/o your knowledge. Then look at corporate sponsors. Algamus is one. Look over the Algamus website to find references to IPA. Google some of the names.
So I wondered what Mary Taylor's schtick might be and went looking. Surprise, surprise, I find reference to that strange man you haven't noticed in your bed.
http://www.primals.org/enews/enews%202005-05.html (http://www.primals.org/enews/enews%202005-05.html)
6. Rick Benson on A&E
On Monday March 14, Rick and his Center were in a segment of the powerful new series "Intervention" on A&E. The program examines the problem of addiction, not only for those addicted, but for family members and friends as well. The "intervention" is a last resort attempt to help those trapped in a variety of addictions. Professional interventionists recommend the treatment center, support family and friends during the intervention, and act as liaison between the addicted person/family and the selected center.
Rick was featured in a segment dealing with a man's gambling addiction.
Rick, a long time IPA member and convention attendee, is Director of Algamus Therapeutic Communities. Founded in 1992 on Anna Maria Island in Florida, the center provides residential treatment and transitional living for compulsive gamblers. Gambling counselors, medical, psychiatric and spiritual advisors are available to assist the resident in an individualized program that includes the opportunity to look at the underlying emotional component of their addiction. Family treatment and intervention services are also available.
The web site is
http://www.algamus.com/ (http://www.algamus.com/)
What's the first and most impotent rule, Thommy? Why would you pretend not to know this guy or what I'm talking about? I think something's up w/ you, Thommy. I'm really worried about you lately. You've got a hard face. And you know if you're hiding things and not being honest, that'll only lead you back to drugs.
:roll: No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats---approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
--Lazlo's Chinese Relativity Axiom:
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On 2005-09-24 12:59:00, Antigen wrote:
"Ok, google your name, you'll find this:
http://www.pgcosci.org/wst_page2.html (http://www.pgcosci.org/wst_page2.html)
That should look familiar, unless someone put it out there w/o your knowledge. Then look at corporate sponsors. Algamus is one. Look over the Algamus website to find references to IPA. Google some of the names.
So I wondered what Mary Taylor's schtick might be and went looking. Surprise, surprise, I find reference to that strange man you haven't noticed in your bed.
http://www.primals.org/enews/enews%202005-05.html (http://www.primals.org/enews/enews%202005-05.html)
6. Rick Benson on A&E
On Monday March 14, Rick and his Center were in a segment of the powerful new series "Intervention" on A&E. The program examines the problem of addiction, not only for those addicted, but for family members and friends as well. The "intervention" is a last resort attempt to help those trapped in a variety of addictions. Professional interventionists recommend the treatment center, support family and friends during the intervention, and act as liaison between the addicted person/family and the selected center.
Rick was featured in a segment dealing with a man's gambling addiction.
Rick, a long time IPA member and convention attendee, is Director of Algamus Therapeutic Communities. Founded in 1992 on Anna Maria Island in Florida, the center provides residential treatment and transitional living for compulsive gamblers. Gambling counselors, medical, psychiatric and spiritual advisors are available to assist the resident in an individualized program that includes the opportunity to look at the underlying emotional component of their addiction. Family treatment and intervention services are also available.
The web site is
http://www.algamus.com/ (http://www.algamus.com/)
What's the first and most impotent rule, Thommy? Why would you pretend not to know this guy or what I'm talking about? I think something's up w/ you, Thommy. I'm really worried about you lately. You've got a hard face. And you know if you're hiding things and not being honest, that'll only lead you back to drugs."
I don't need drugs. Whenever I want to get whacked out, I can just come here and try to follow your logic. As for my pretending not to know Rick, ....I don't recall getting comfy in bed with anyone named Rick. I don't think my wife would be too keen on the idea anyway. GB
This is an example of what we in the 'ain't got nothin' to prove' world call 'humor' I was ridiculing your suggestion that friendship between 'steppers' automatically equals some sort of sleezy relationship. You probably know more about the primal and new identity stuff than I do. All I know is that they are part of Rick's life and not really of interest to me. BTW, thanks for the plug for http://www.pgcosci.org (http://www.pgcosci.org) hits and donations are way up today! One thing I don't understand, Perry, why would I want to google myself? I already know what I'm involved with, so you can go google yourself, for all I'm concerned! For anyone looking for quality gambling addiction treatment, http://www.algamus.com (http://www.algamus.com) is among the best.
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Well, that's a shame, bro. I spent a whole 15 minutes or so looking into these organizations and I'm not even considering going into business w/ these people. You really should look into the people you do business with. I've found it's a big mistake to enter into any significant enterprise w/ people who may be subject to undue influence of any kind.
Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce
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On 2005-09-25 09:38:00, Antigen wrote:
"Well, that's a shame, bro. I spent a whole 15 minutes or so looking into these organizations and I'm not even considering going into business w/ these people. You really should look into the people you do business with. I've found it's a big mistake to enter into any significant enterprise w/ people who may be subject to undue influence of any kind."
Thanks for the suggestion. If I ever consider going into business with him, I'll check that stuff out first.