Fornits

Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

now i simply have dreams about running into john at some conference.  that would be strange.

as an adult he's a tiny man to me, but our history is loaded and I think it'll be hard not to experience him w/ that fear... this is weird, but fear that i did not protect him and hence disappoint... part of me automatically thinks that i should've never 'ratted' on a guy who worked to help me and dedicated his life... and the REAL messed up thing is I don't REALLY believe that way... it's just I feel that way habitually... it was drilled into my minds a million different ways during my time there... we owe MMS & John Mercer our lives...don't we girls?  Anyway, I think that initial regressed state would kick in and it would take a  moment to get over, but not too long.  Now I see him as a rather pathetic figure, his omnipotence gone...

still, those dreams reveal that fear... remind me of the paralyzing fear i felt while at MMS.  shudder.

If the gov't allows atudents from abroad to attend unregulated facilities then I think they should issue a statement much like they have for facilities abroad... that students may not be protected...

http://www.ice.gov/sevis/schools/new_schools/index.htm

As far as why only those 9...  no idea, but it's interesting that they didn't pick a facility from MT.

That said, I don't care what this says, I have personally communicated with kids from:

MBA
ASR
SunHawk
Copper Canyon
Aspen Ranch
Youth Care- (I'm pretty sure- but have to check)

And it's clear that some youth are being traumatized, yet they also say that it helped in some ways... but more harm than good...


The limited number of faciliites doesn't suprise me tho, but I'm curious how they selected these- least number of dissenters posting online perhaps?

I'm just surprised it's so.. watered down of a 'study'.   I suppose that this isn't really the purpose - identifying methods used...yet one would think that in an outcome study data on the input would also have been collected.  How can you asses the output w/o the input?  Seriously?  Don't humans have more depth than that??

To me it's kind of like looking at N. Korea and asking the folks there if they support their gov't or, rather, if they're happy (within the context of studying the gov't- and it's output/outcome).... simple as that- No fool would be honest.  I'm probably stating the obvious here... i think.

www.strugglingteens.com/news/APAReport81206.pdf

Obviously this study only marks improved behavior/self assesment of self in an environment which coerces change.  It's kind of funny that this is even being mentioned as legitimite data since it's like asking kids over at the Judge Rotenberg Center, who have been shocked into submission, to report on their state- knowing that if they are feeling feeling x, say agressive, knowing that this is a 'bad' thing, that it could get them sent back, that it's not allowed... well, it's easier to deny than to admit and then try to pretend or try and deal with the conflict of what's acceptable vs not.    

Another possibility is that there is no sense of being in touch with the self, but rather only what the program has told you you should feel, think, do, etc.  It's no suprise that we've all heard of fellow alumni return to old stuff, or become more self-destructive w/in 6 months to a year...

It also takes time for the shock to dissipate, for the fear to subside, for the trauma to sink in and for honest, awareness and present assesment to take place. I have NO doubt a good percentage of youth will entirely contradict this study's preliminary results in the follow up.  

I (and I'm 100% positive I'm not the only one) would have easily- given the naturalization of the program mantra- reported improvements in just about every area of my life after leaving the facility I attended, for a number of reasons. This would have been/and was so ( I told everyone how wonderful the program was for a while after I left):  Fear of getting sent back, fear of disappointing my family,  fear of diminishing my own value by diminishing the program's value (ie, my 'accomplishments' there- after all, spending a year perfecting the art of something, even if it's regurgitation, is awfully painful to admit in the end it was of no real help),  and I think the biggest fear of all would be having to admit helplessness.  If the program didn't have the answers then I was back at square one, or square negative one... That was the worst thing possible.... I would then have no answers. Yes, denial was the  only choice for me for some time...

Much like the respondents, who didn't gain some insight- if we all really think about it...there is some value in the trauma of seperation, the fear of not living with your family for years, the shock of being completely and utterly alone- some self refelction and even insight into family life can only be expected, but that alone is not a program and in that trauma, abandonment, of seperation, etc - do the end jutify the means?  

I find that this study to be irresponsible- well, at least NATSAP's response is premature and irresponsible.  Dr. Brehan just seems naive.  The study itself, for whatever reason, does not examine the nuances of individual programs - how can we examine a program w/o identifying and looking into the practices they call 'therapeutic'?  
Um... perhaps the results would be more acurate?
The difference b/w a facility that does not force peers to act like staff vs one that does, or variations in a facility that does not impose/ insist constant, daily confrontation with the intensity that many of us find dehuminizing and humiliating vs methods used at regulated RTC's?
Or what about the rock picking for days vs facilities that don't turn youth into chain gangs who don't have that?  

Not to mention, how many kids have said they've noted improvements (time spent at facilitiy irrelevant),  yet still report symptoms of PTSD?  I suppose that upon discharge this is too soon to asses, but I wonder if that will be a quesiton posed in the follow up interview?

In anycase, to ignore the role of coercion and how easily one can become complicit in their dis-empowerment or mistreatment is absolutely obscene (niave on the dr's part), yet this - like so many other deminsions, are mute points.

For NATSAP to completely jump the gun and insist private residential tx is evidence-based is silly, there's not enough information provided.  To ignore completly what we've all reported, however,  is incredibly irresponsible & I am absolutely appalled and sickened.

Some facilities are accredited, licensed and regulated, but not all...

To the Guest who asked "Is abuse a subjective issue?"
Yes I think it is.

Then you would be mostly innaccurate, thankfully we have certain criteria that objectively asses mistreatment.  I think trauma is more subjective:

http://www.sidran.org/whatistrauma.html

Perhaps, like in the case of mms, what we would consider abusive, some consider helpful.

Again, thankfully this type of situation can be assesed and we can recognize that abuse, -even if a person calls it help, abuse remains in fact abuse.  Just like battered wife syndrome- these women stay and will defend their abusive spouse relentlessly...but we know all about this and still recognize it as abuse, despite the victims denial of calling it as such.

I do not think that the staff intentionally abused the students.

Really? you think this while including John as staff...? not that intent really matters, I 'guess... but perhaps you're right.  John may be far too narcasisstic to really address the fact that he is not qualified and ignorant

... and yet I highly doubt that he doesn't not know that what he's donig is nothing much beyond mistreated girls- I really doubt that he is oblivious to this- he feeds off power and rendered us powerless, so how could he possibly (being such a power hungry person) not know what it's like to be depleted of your power, not be conscious of this when he worked so hard to prevent the creation of an environment of empowerment?

 Can't imagine how on earth this would ever be perceived by him as an environment that fostered growth.

i only recall one person, Melissa S being on.. Lithium?  everyone else was taken off meds, far as I can recall.. Oh, Katie H on wellbutrin.

Also, was that really Tara's last name?  From Calagary?

thx

Why dig over and over in the past...

to help those in the future, obviously. closure...uh, i don't know, why does anyone reflect on the past? sorry b, dumb question for a dumb q.

Personally I don't remember any regressive therapy.

Yea, the stopped that early on- totally messed me up though.  WTF was John thinking, trying to unearth memories, making some girsl dissacotiate, etc.  That was HORRIBLE!  HORRIBLY unethical.  We were his toys, that was all, far as I can tell... he played therapist and we played patient.  did i mention, it was HORRIBLE.

Seriously, i know now that the induced stuff wasn't real, although sometimes I wonder... I don't know- remember all that bs about body memories and all of a sudden EVERYBODY was having body memories of abuse past.  what a joke...on us...

What I will say is they made sex into a very weird thing, none of it was dealt with in any manner beyond like AA 101, which as we all know is a 'self help' group, not therapy!  So EVERYTHING being about running from emotions, using X as an escape just made not sex weird, but EVERYTHING! I still think, oh, am I using this or that... but no sense of what healthy is...putting everything into that over-simplified equation makes life appear perpetually off... i mean, honestly- I get it, you can use things to escape life but these things are also PART OF life... that contradiction just re-enforced their powerplays...they got to determine what was healthy, when something was good (health) bad (an escape)...but they needed to keep us there for 2years, so of course there's going to be all this stuff being pointed out as if it somehow is logical and makes sense.

It's a joke- locked up for near 2 years... to what end?  I don't think any one of us needed the kind of structure that would justify being locked up that long.

I work with mentally ill homeless adults... and there is not a single on who I would suggest be locked up- none are violent, none are hurting themselves.  sure, sometimes kids need a safe place- great, lets make sure they have it and it's consensual (unless they are a threat to themselves or others- then no consent should be required.)  Living w/in the community with dignity and support makes a world of difference.  And I'm talking about people who have been homeless anywhere from a few years to 20 years- and I've seen them get their lives together.

We didn't have anywhere near that kind of history.  Again, I just can't get over how big of a joke MMS is/was and how much of it was about lining their pockets and making us perpetually crazy/confused unecessarily.

surely if folks who are actively psychotic, like those who I work with, or have some other time of mental illness and are chemically dependent who have been homeless for years can improve with community based support, most kids can.