Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Benchmark Young Adult School / Benchmark Transitions => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 19, 2007, 03:44:40 AM
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your film doesn't load.
just so you know
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your film doesn't load.
just so you know
exact error message? What file are you trying to open?
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When you press the play butten, nothing happens. I'm suprised you haven't heard this from other people, so perhaps it's just me?
Also, psy, your raid was wonderful, and I hope you continue a to be a kind, compassionate, Cedu destroyer.
I also think you should post the name of the kid that commited suicide, as testemant to him. At this point, what his "family" thinks is less important than preventing him from becoming a nameless spirit, who dissapears back into dust ,without his murderers being implicated, and his and hismartrydom honored.
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I was thinking that we should go a step farther and make an actual memorial for him. I bet the people at the American Legion(the building next to the bridge) would be willing to let us build a small memorial for the young man.
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When you press the play butten, nothing happens. I'm suprised you haven't heard this from other people, so perhaps it's just me?
Also, psy, your raid was wonderful, and I hope you continue a to be a kind, compassionate, Cedu destroyer.
I also think you should post the name of the kid that commited suicide, as testemant to him. At this point, what his "family" thinks is less important than preventing him from becoming a nameless spirit, who dissapears back into dust ,without his murderers being implicated, and his and hismartrydom honored.
This is totally wrong. You should speak to the family first. You are all getting as bad as Deborah. Just focus on the industry (if that is who you have the beef with) and leave the kids alone. Try to do your work outside of hurting other people and families. We all have a choice of posting anonymous or logging in, we can even post our names if we like, but that is an individual choice and we should be able to maintain that control. It is not right to post survivors names, parents names, kids who are trying to make a difference or positive impact on others or children who took their lives without their permission or their families permission.
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FUCK OFF!
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When you press the play butten, nothing happens. I'm suprised you haven't heard this from other people, so perhaps it's just me?
Also, psy, your raid was wonderful, and I hope you continue a to be a kind, compassionate, Cedu destroyer.
I also think you should post the name of the kid that commited suicide, as testemant to him. At this point, what his "family" thinks is less important than preventing him from becoming a nameless spirit, who dissapears back into dust ,without his murderers being implicated, and his and hismartrydom honored.
This is totally wrong. You should speak to the family first. You are all getting as bad as Deborah. Just focus on the industry (if that is who you have the beef with) and leave the kids alone. Try to do your work outside of hurting other people and families. We all have a choice of posting anonymous or logging in, we can even post our names if we like, but that is an individual choice and we should be able to maintain that control. It is not right to post survivors names, parents names, kids who are trying to make a difference or positive impact on others or children who took their lives without their permission or their families permission.
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Yeah, i know. You want the victims to dissapear into the ether, so no one knows what happened to them, to identify with, or pity them. To want justice taken against those that murdered them.
You want the 10s of thousands of murder victims (i include suicide and premature death from program induced psych, life damage in this figure) to remain hidden.
These individuals who kill themselves are important. Their martyrdon should be honored. There lives should be honored. Asshole, they are NOT SURVIVORS, they are dead. Therefore, revealing their name isn't potentially psychologically damaging!
There families don't "own" them, and so they don't need to give permission. It's not about the PARENTS or even the families. It's about the VITCIM. THEY DESERVE REMEMBRANCE, and the JUSTICE, of their suffering and exploitation known, and understood
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When you press the play butten, nothing happens. I'm suprised you haven't heard this from other people, so perhaps it's just me?
Also, psy, your raid was wonderful, and I hope you continue a to be a kind, compassionate, Cedu destroyer.
I also think you should post the name of the kid that commited suicide, as testemant to him. At this point, what his "family" thinks is less important than preventing him from becoming a nameless spirit, who dissapears back into dust ,without his murderers being implicated, and his and hismartrydom honored.
This is totally wrong. You should speak to the family first. You are all getting as bad as Deborah. Just focus on the industry (if that is who you have the beef with) and leave the kids alone. Try to do your work outside of hurting other people and families. We all have a choice of posting anonymous or logging in, we can even post our names if we like, but that is an individual choice and we should be able to maintain that control. It is not right to post survivors names, parents names, kids who are trying to make a difference or positive impact on others or children who took their lives without their permission or their families permission.
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Yeah, i know. You want the victims to dissapear into the ether, so no one knows what happened to them, to identify with, or pity them. To want justice taken against those that murdered them.
You want the 10s of thousands of murder victims (i include suicide and premature death from program induced psych, life damage in this figure) to remain hidden.
These individuals who kill themselves are important. Their martyrdon should be honored. There lives should be honored. Asshole, they are NOT SURVIVORS, they are dead. Therefore, revealing their name isn't potentially psychologically damaging!
There families don't "own" them, and so they don't need to give permission. It's not about the PARENTS or even the families. It's about the VITCIM. THEY DESERVE REMEMBRANCE, and the JUSTICE, of their suffering and exploitation known, and understood
:tup:
I wouldn't have ever said it better than this.
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When you press the play butten, nothing happens. I'm suprised you haven't heard this from other people, so perhaps it's just me?
Also, psy, your raid was wonderful, and I hope you continue a to be a kind, compassionate, Cedu destroyer.
I also think you should post the name of the kid that commited suicide, as testemant to him. At this point, what his "family" thinks is less important than preventing him from becoming a nameless spirit, who dissapears back into dust ,without his murderers being implicated, and his and hismartrydom honored.
This is totally wrong. You should speak to the family first. You are all getting as bad as Deborah. Just focus on the industry (if that is who you have the beef with) and leave the kids alone. Try to do your work outside of hurting other people and families. We all have a choice of posting anonymous or logging in, we can even post our names if we like, but that is an individual choice and we should be able to maintain that control. It is not right to post survivors names, parents names, kids who are trying to make a difference or positive impact on others or children who took their lives without their permission or their families permission.
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Yeah, i know. You want the victims to dissapear into the ether, so no one knows what happened to them, to identify with, or pity them. To want justice taken against those that murdered them.
You want the 10s of thousands of murder victims (i include suicide and premature death from program induced psych, life damage in this figure) to remain hidden.
These individuals who kill themselves are important. Their martyrdon should be honored. There lives should be honored. Asshole, they are NOT SURVIVORS, they are dead. Therefore, revealing their name isn't potentially psychologically damaging!
There families don't "own" them, and so they don't need to give permission. It's not about the PARENTS or even the families. It's about the VITCIM. THEY DESERVE REMEMBRANCE, and the JUSTICE, of their suffering and exploitation known, and understood
Maybe he is remembered very well. As far as we know all the people that loved him remember him every day and cherish the time they had with him. Why should you be the one to decide if his name should be posted all over the internet? Should we post your name on here, were you a victim? How about Anne Bonney, she was a victim.. should we take a vote and post her name? (Sorry Anne, didnt mean to single you out) or is this something that just you should decide?
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I don't think it is so cut and dried. There ARE cases of kids who have died -- whose names and stories have long entered the common lore -- where you wouldn't be doing anyone a disservice by memorializing them since they are already well enough known. At that point, IMO, it does become a question of honoring their memory by acknowledging their suffering and what they must have gone through.
In circumstances of lesser renown, the quandary becomes more pronounced. Perhaps there the sensitive thing to do is to allow some time, both for the family's healing as well as for a change in the level of common knowledge.
Seems to me that the parents of kids who have died in these mind-rape mills, and who have come onto fornits, have been for the most part very interested in the world knowing about their kid's death. I've read a number of posts along the lines of "God forbid this should ever happen to anyone else," and "hopefully my story will prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again," etc. etc.
But it usually gets murky when you are discussing cases of SUICIDE. Why is this? People take this on personally as the ultimate stain of shame. Perhaps it is.
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if the parents dont want a memorial,
fuck them
they are the ones who sent the kid there in the first place, they are the ones who fucked the kid up from the start, they are the ones who facilitated his further mind-rape at the institution, they are the ones who indirectly led this young man, their child, to suicide.
they may be his parents, but they are also his killers. they gave him the metaphorical rope, and the institution showed him how to tie it into a noose.
since when do murderers have a say in weather or not their victim gets a memorial?
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Were I this kid, and I'm not even going to go into how close I came to being in his shoes, I would very much appreciate the memorial.
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The kid who died would appreciate the fact noone forgot!
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I don't think it is so cut and dried. There ARE cases of kids who have died – whose names and stories have long entered the common lore – where you wouldn't be doing anyone a disservice by memorializing them since they are already well enough known. At that point, IMO, it does become a question of honoring their memory by acknowledging their suffering and what they must have gone through.
In circumstances of lesser renown, the quandary becomes more pronounced. Perhaps there the sensitive thing to do is to allow some time, both for the family's healing as well as for a change in the level of common knowledge.
Seems to me that the parents of kids who have died in these mind-rape mills, and who have come onto fornits, have been for the most part very interested in the world knowing about their kid's death. I've read a number of posts along the lines of "God forbid this should ever happen to anyone else," and "hopefully my story will prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again," etc. etc.
But it usually gets murky when you are discussing cases of SUICIDE. Why is this? People take this on personally as the ultimate stain of shame. Perhaps it is.
exactly, if it's suicide, it's "shameful" for the family. That's because it implicates them, in some way.
FUCK THE FAMILIES.
Whether they were duped and overall decent, or nasty lil buggers, it doesn't matter,as it's NOT ABOUT THEM. You don't release the name of a person when they die out of respect for the family when the family isn't aware of what happened, yet, and you don't want them to find out on the 6:00 news. This obviously isn't the case.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FAMILY, IT'S ABOUT THE VICTIM. This attitude that the parent's own their kid, into eternity, no less, and decide whether or not their kid can be honored is just sick. THEY'RE DEAD, they should, finnally, at long last, be treated with respect, honor, and with ackonwledgement of their humanity, not as "property" or extensions of their parents!
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Were I this kid, and I'm not even going to go into how close I came to being in his shoes, I would very much appreciate the memorial.
Ditto.
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exactly, if it's suicide, it's "shameful" for the family. That's because it implicates them, in some way.
FUCK THE FAMILIES.
I hear ya. But life is a messy thing. Dont think any are arguing with ya on THIS one. Think Urs was trying for some general thoughts, when it comes to being sensitive about suicide. Me, I say go fer it.
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I had a friend who died a few years after she graduated from one of these TBSs. They said it was an accident, but I never really believed that. Maybe it was sort of an accident, but her frame of mind was like she had failed at life, and how much did THAT contribute, huh? She failed at life because she didn't live up to the programs expectations. Well, she's gone now. And her little girl is growing up without her mother.
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Right then. I'm all for creating a fund for building a memorial to honor every single one of them.
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exactly, if it's suicide, it's "shameful" for the family. That's because it implicates them, in some way.
FUCK THE FAMILIES.
I hear ya. But life is a messy thing. Dont think any are arguing with ya on THIS one. Think Urs was trying for some general thoughts, when it comes to being sensitive about suicide. Me, I say go fer it.
yes, i hope it didn't come off like i was trying to insult him, or be argumentitive, Sorry. Suicide is not shameful for the kid, only the parents/ "program" that drove him to it. I hate the idea that, like, it's something like being a pedophile, and needs to be kept secret, for the sake of the victim.
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When you press the play butten, nothing happens. I'm suprised you haven't heard this from other people, so perhaps it's just me?
Also, psy, your raid was wonderful, and I hope you continue a to be a kind, compassionate, Cedu destroyer.
I also think you should post the name of the kid that commited suicide, as testemant to him. At this point, what his "family" thinks is less important than preventing him from becoming a nameless spirit, who dissapears back into dust ,without his murderers being implicated, and his and hismartrydom honored.
This is totally wrong. You should speak to the family first. You are all getting as bad as Deborah. Just focus on the industry (if that is who you have the beef with) and leave the kids alone. Try to do your work outside of hurting other people and families. We all have a choice of posting anonymous or logging in, we can even post our names if we like, but that is an individual choice and we should be able to maintain that control. It is not right to post survivors names, parents names, kids who are trying to make a difference or positive impact on others or children who took their lives without their permission or their families permission.
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Um. From the people i've talked to (if it isn't already self-evident) the kid wasn't exactly a fan of Benchmark. If I had his full name, i'd post it, but for now "George" will have to do. But what about the parents? I'd love to talk to them. If posting a name would somehow initiate that dialogue (in whatever capacity) it would probably be good, not bad (well, maybe for Benchmark). If I were the parents, I would have filed a wrongful death suit, and that still might be possible.
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Maybe he is remembered very well. As far as we know all the people that loved him remember him every day and cherish the time they had with him.
Why should you be the one to decide if his name should be posted all over the internet?
Or maybe not. Maybe his family remember him the way Chris Landry's family did by setting up a fund to help more kids to an early grave. People can be quite delusional that way; especially when dealing with deep, dark and complicated matters like the death of a child and their own culpability in it.
Shit, I actually have some sympathy for these people. I just lost my best beloved dog. She got clipped on the road, probably running deer late one night. On the one hand, I was the one to let her out and I didn't miss her and go looking for her when I shut down the house. If I had just noticed and called her she would have come. She was that good a dog. It was my fault and I'll never forget it and I don't take offence at all when neighbours tell the story as a cautionary tale to other dog owners.
But she rarely wandered off in her 5 years, never in the most recent ones. So why should I think to check and see if she had that night? These are mollifying truths, but still I know I didn't miss her, wasn't paying attention and that's why she's gone from me.
And she was just a dog. A good dog, the best, but not my child really. I can hardly imagine what it must be like for these parents. I do have a great deal of compassion and concern for them. But that doesn't come close to outweighing the need to break the secrecy so that more kids don't have to suffer and die in secret as so many program kids have done already.
Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.
Should we post your name on here, were you a victim? How about Anne Bonney, she was a victim.. should we take a vote and post her name? (Sorry Anne, didnt mean to single you out) or is this something that just you should decide?
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Have at it. My name is all over the net and in print about this. I decided a long time ago that it was well worth the personal sacrifice to do my level best to purge this dangerous cult from the country my grandchildren will grow up in. BTW, did you ever grow enough sack to confirm your identity? Probably not.
Ginger McNulty
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Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.
First I think it is wrong to exploit people who don’t want to be and to have their names and pictures placed on the web. I didn’t think it was right for people to have plastered Niles picture everywhere. I don’t think it is right to take pictures of these young kids trying to get their careers going helping other children and to repost them here for ridicule and for their family and friends to have to endure. It is true that the pictures were already on the internet, but it isn’t right to misuse it….. purely just my opinion.
I don’t think the boys death should remain a secret at all. It is not up to me. I have known families who have had children who took their own life and the families feel great remorse and somewhat responsible, maybe. These deaths seem to always be treated differently…..no right up in the paper about how he enjoyed sports, or video games or how he helped others as you typically see if the class president dies in a car accident. Maybe it is a stigma, I cant relate because it never happened to me but I have witnessed the shades come down and the silence and distance that is implied and asked for when a death like this occurs.
Unless you know the boys family would be okay with it, I wouldn’t do it. Maybe they would be moved by your understanding and remembrance, maybe they blame the school or maybe they have reason to suspect it had nothing to do with Benchmark. But I wouldn’t take it upon yourself to use this boys death to further a personal cause behind a veil of compassion.
Unless the boy left a note none of us will ever know what caused him to take his own life.
Have at it. My name is all over the net and in print about this. I decided a long time ago that it was well worth the personal sacrifice to do my level best to purge this dangerous cult from the country my grandchildren will grow up in. BTW, did you ever grow enough sack to confirm your identity? Probably not.
That is your choice, Ginger. If you wanted to remain anonymous I think people should respect that.
“Did I ever grow enough sack to confirm my own identityâ€
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"Did I ever grow enough sack to confirm my own identity?" I am not sure what you mean.
I believe she was asking whether you had the balls you were born with, or something else along the lines of equating scrotal size with courage.
Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.
Deaths ARE under-investigated, and under-reported. Especially those involving suicide, or where there is potential suicidal involvement. These are dirty secrets that those who want to maintain the status quo are never happy about having aired in the disinfecting sunlight.
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Do you know that George's family sent him on a suicide mission? If so, they deserve your punishments. If not, let them grieve without making matters worse for them.
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Do you know that George's family sent him on a suicide mission? If so, they deserve your punishments. If not, let them grieve without making matters worse for them.
I hardly think shining the light on this problem has the primary intention of "punishment." People are just not putting 2 and 2 together. The more this is aired, the more likely they will be able to in the future. How about thinking of George's family as being tragically uninformed consumers, does that make it any clearer?
Sorry to be so crass...
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Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.
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I don’t think it is right to take pictures of these young kids trying to get their careers going helping other children and to repost them here for ridicule and for their family and friends to have to endure. It is true that the pictures were already on the internet, but it isn’t right to misuse it….. purely just my opinion.
Everybody's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Humor is one way to make a point, but not the overriding motivation for most of the content on these fora. You assume that that's the primary motive and you are incorrect.
Unless the boy left a note none of us will ever know what caused him to take his own life.
True enough. There is no more certain bar against enlightenment than contempt prior to investigation. But the suicide rate in TC/LGAT style programs is something around 5 - 20 times the national average. This is worthy of investigation.
Have at it. My name is all over the net and in print about this. I decided a long time ago that it was well worth the personal sacrifice to do my level best to purge this dangerous cult from the country my grandchildren will grow up in. BTW, did you ever grow enough sack to confirm your identity? Probably not.
That is your choice, Ginger. If you wanted to remain anonymous I think people should respect that.
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I was responding to this Should we post your name on here, were you a victim? How about Anne Bonney, she was a victim.. should we take a vote and post her name? (Sorry Anne, didnt mean to single you out) or is this something that just you should decide?
“Did I ever grow enough sack to confirm my own identityâ€
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Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.
It is not phoney baloney compassion. Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.
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Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.
It is not phoney baloney compassion. Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.
How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?
You are merely making a counterfactual statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.
Napoleon would have won the war if he had not invaded Russia during the winter. Maybe yes, maybe no.
You had better be armed with better proofs than that if you want to convince anyone outside of Fornits.
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Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.
It is not phoney baloney compassion. Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.
How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?
You are merely making a counterfactual statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.
Napoleon would have won the war if he had not invaded Russia during the winter. Maybe yes, maybe no.
You had better be armed with better proofs than that if you want to convince anyone outside of Fornits.
Torturer, we have proof. Psy survived benchmark, and can post about the treatment of it's prisoners. That's proof, you horrible human being.
You can't set up a "thought reform" prison, based on degrading and destroying the mental processes and emotional well being of a kid, and then claim no responsibility when the kid commits suicide as a result of their "restructured brain."
YOU don't want to admit the truth, as it implicates you in murder. But, outside of YOUR cult, it's not to hard "convincing people" of what is only too obvious.
ps. a mother was put in jail for forcing her 18 year old daughter to work as a stripper. Your kind will be too, someday.
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Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.
It is not phoney baloney compassion. Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.
How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?
You are merely making a counterfactual statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.
Napoleon would have won the war if he had not invaded Russia during the winter. Maybe yes, maybe no.
You had better be armed with better proofs than that if you want to convince anyone outside of Fornits.
Torturer, we have proof. Psy survived benchmark, and can post about the treatment of it's prisoners. That's proof, you horrible human being.
You can't set up a "thought reform" prison, based on degrading and destroying the mental processes and emotional well being of a kid, and then claim no responsibility when the kid commits suicide as a result of their "restructured brain."
YOU don't want to admit the truth, as it implicates you in murder. But, outside of YOUR cult, it's not to hard "convincing people" of what is only too obvious.
ps. a mother was put in jail for forcing her 18 year old daughter to work as a stripper. Your kind will be too, someday.
You need to work on your people skills.
Just out of curiosity, did you know George and his family?
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True enough. There is no more certain bar against enlightenment than contempt prior to investigation. But the suicide rate in TC/LGAT style programs is something around 5 - 20 times the national average. This is worthy of investigation.
Not too convinced of your statistics but I agree that it is worth investigating. What I was against was placing a guys name on the internet or bridge without having the facts. If we don’t find out the school caused the suicide then we should not make the connection our selves.
A simple “Georgeâ€
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But that doesn't come close to outweighing the need to break the secrecy so that more kids don't have to suffer and die in secret as so many program kids have done already.
Yes, I think it's important to prevent this kind of murder from reoccuring, but, in my opinion, the primary interest in this memorial would be to honour the victim. Sadly, we loose sight of the importance of the individual, and we feel we have to give legitimacy to honouring them, by tying it to help others, but, George, in himself, should be the primary motivation of a memorial.
Like, the memorial for webdivas' brother, by describing his martydrom, the kid is granted decency, respect, and acknowledgement of his suffering that he never was in life.
Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.
Exactly, it's so presumptuous. Like they have "claim" on this boys existance into eternity. THEY are the ones who use the "mask" of compassion- concern for the feelings' of the boys' family- to further their personal agenda.
Why does anyone have the right to think they are allowed to keep a death "secret", for any reason???????
It shows their lack of respect for human life; their beleif that humans are inventory to be channelled as they wish
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But that doesn't come close to outweighing the need to break the secrecy so that more kids don't have to suffer and die in secret as so many program kids have done already.
Yes, I think it's important to prevent this kind of murder from reoccuring, but, in my opinion, the primary interest in this memorial would be to honour the victim. Sadly, we loose sight of the importance of the individual, and we feel we have to give legitimacy to honouring them, by tying it to help others, but, George, in himself, should be the primary motivation of a memorial.
Like, the memorial for webdivas' brother, by describing his martydrom, the kid is granted decency, respect, and acknowledgement of his suffering that he never was in life.
Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.
Exactly, it's so presumptuous. Like they have "claim" on this boys existance into eternity. THEY are the ones who use the "mask" of compassion- concern for the feelings' of the boys' family- to further their personal agenda.
Why does anyone have the right to think they are allowed to keep a death "secret", for any reason???????
It shows their lack of respect for human life; their beleif that humans are inventory to be channelled as they wish
You are the one who never knew George was alive until he was dead. You are the one who has no drop of human feeling for him one way or the other. You are the one who wants to turn him into inventory.
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What I was against was placing a guys name on the internet or bridge without having the facts.
I think one of the facts is that George died by the bridge and no one is disputing that fact. What exactly is the problem with including his last name in the memorial?
You still haven't answered me, Who: Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.
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What I was against was placing a guys name on the internet or bridge without having the facts.
I think one of the facts is that George died by the bridge and no one is disputing that fact. What exactly is the problem with including his last name in the memorial?
You still haven't answered me, Who: Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.
Yes, I agree lets stick with what we know.. "George died by the bridge" I had a member of my extended family die this way, but not someone close to me. It seems this manner of death brings solitude. This may be viewed as secrecy to those who have never been through or have known others who have had a family member suffer this way.
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Then don't respect their wishes. But leave the phoney baloney compassion behind.
It is not phoney baloney compassion. Have YOU ever lost someone via these means to the end of a life? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm asking you flat out.
How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?
You are merely making a counterfactual statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.
Well. Here are the facts: George was already suicidal. He was clinically diagnosed as bipolar. How do I know this, as well as his name? Jayne Longnecker told me when I interviewed her back in Nov of 06 (so much for patient confidentiality. or student confidentiality, or whatever...)
Yup. He was clearly a danger to himself and he wanted to get help. He didn't. Instead, he was yelled at, berated, and browbeaten until he could no longer stand it and killed himself (according to multiple eye witness accounts). He should have gotten legitimate therapy, he should have felt accepted and loved. He didn't. Benchmark advertised to be able to help him and it was criminally irresponsible (IMO) for them to accept him in the condition he was already in. They told parents I have interviewed that they had qualified counselors on staff and 24 hour supervision (yeah, I got video tape) and all that jazz. They told my parents the same. They lied.
If they had told the truth it would have been something like "we hire a bunch of junkies straight outta rehab cuz it's cheap labor and costs a hell of a lot less than paying staff that actually graduated high school, much less college. Our staff can't probably even spell your kid's disorder but will do their best to 'treat' it as an addiction." If you're a parent, I dare you to go do some background checks on some of the staff, then ask yourself where the hell your 70k/year is going.
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is benchmark 70K a year?
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So we can conclude that Benchmark did not cause the boy to become suicidal, but they clearly didnt do much (or enough) to help him. As far as staff is concerned.. are you sure that none of them has completed high school and they are all addicted to heroin?
This is where some parents question the credibility here. Personally I find it hard to believe, how did you verify that they did not complete high school or the heroin?
It is statements like these that lead the reader to believe you want to place a memorial for George, not out of respect for George, but out of disrespect for Benchmark. Georges death seems to be an opportunity to further ones cause.
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You are the one who never knew George was alive until he was dead. You are the one who has no drop of human feeling for him one way or the other. You are the one who wants to turn him into inventory.
So you think I'm using him as a political pawn? A symbol? A rallying cry?
No. I'm just trying to prevent other kids I don't know from becoming dead ones I do. George may have been the only death at Benchmark itself (that I know of), but he was not exactly the only one from Benchmark to ever pull it off. Seth H. was another one who killed himself shortly after program. Program used his testimony on their advertising despite this. He was a "success story". (Who is getting used as a pawn now. Benchmark makes money off these kids. I don't. I was one of them.) His brother was in program with me, I did know him and I knew he did love his brother (and talked about him all the time)
No, I didn't know George. I wish I had. I wish I could have been a friend to him. I wish I had the opportunity to talk his parents about what a dangerous situation he was in, maybe get him some legitimate therapy. Suicide attempts were not taken seriously at Benchmark, usually dismissed as "manipulations". While i'm sure this might be the case in some situations, it is negligent to dismiss any attempt or talk about suicide as such. Negligence has consequences. There are reasons why unlicensed persons are not permitted to practice psychology.
Benchmark advertises to treat psychiatric conditions. They misrepresent their staff qualifications. They behave recklessly with those who are already vulnerable. They believe they can handle conditions because they are told that the catch-all Benchmark treatment method works wonders. It's dogma, not psychiatric science. The responsibility for his death lies with Benchmark, not me, and not George. In my opinion, his death was more murder than suicide.
Is it possible that Benchmark did help him and it just wasn't enough? It would go against everything i've seen, heard about, and personally experienced. Depression, or anything for that matter, was treated with the exact same methodology as the addicts, schizophrenics, bulimics, and ADHD kids. They tell these kids they are powerless over their problems (and need program). With a suicidally depressed person starts believing that, it's tantamount to a death sentence.
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is benchmark 70K a year?
55k/year plus expenses (revolving fund, etc...) roughly equates to 70k a year.
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What percentage of the childs tuition goes in Who's pocket???
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So we can conclude that Benchmark did not cause the boy to become suicidal, but they clearly didnt do much (or enough) to help him. As far as staff is concerned.. are you sure that none of them has completed high school and they are all addicted to heroin?
Why don't you ask for yourself. Jayne admitted to me that some of the counselors still don't have High School diplomas and the fact that most of them are "recovering" junkies isn't exactly a state secret. Jayne claims it gives them "real world experience".
This is where some parents question the credibility here. Personally I find it hard to believe, how did you verify that they did not complete high school or the heroin?
Well. While I was in program they told me. They were particular proud of their "war stories". I'm sure some weren't exactly proud that they didn't have high school diplomas but they seemed to be quite convinced it was unnecessary to function as counselors. Jayne also admitted the high school thing later when I interviewed her In Nov of 06.
If I'm lying, why doesn't Jayne Longnecker just sue me for libel? I'd love to be able to grill her and other staff on the stand, present evidence, and prove these things in court. I've been practically screaming "PLEASE SUE ME" but she just won't do it. Ask yourself why.
It is statements like these that lead the reader to believe you want to place a memorial for George, not out of respect for George, but out of disrespect for Benchmark.
No. If anybody put a plaque up, and I had anything to say about it, it would simply be his name, and dates or birth and death. That being said, in methsville California it would probably last ten seconds before somebody ripped it off and sold it for scrap.
Georges death seems to be an opportunity to further ones cause.
Well. I can't prove to you that my motivations are sincere. Perhaps that's why you chose to question me on this. What I don't do is make a buck off dead kids' testimonials (like Seth H.)
What about you? What's your cause? Who do you work for? Why not tell us all here. It's not like it's a name or anything.
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But that doesn't come close to outweighing the need to break the secrecy so that more kids don't have to suffer and die in secret as so many program kids have done already.
Yes, I think it's important to prevent this kind of murder from reoccuring, but, in my opinion, the primary interest in this memorial would be to honour the victim. Sadly, we loose sight of the importance of the individual, and we feel we have to give legitimacy to honouring them, by tying it to help others, but, George, in himself, should be the primary motivation of a memorial.
Like, the memorial for webdivas' brother, by describing his martydrom, the kid is granted decency, respect, and acknowledgement of his suffering that he never was in life.
Who are you to decide that the details of this death should remain secret? As a matter of course, all deaths are subject to investigation. I am of the opinion that deaths among program captives and vets are under-investigated.
Exactly, it's so presumptuous. Like they have "claim" on this boys existance into eternity. THEY are the ones who use the "mask" of compassion- concern for the feelings' of the boys' family- to further their personal agenda.
Why does anyone have the right to think they are allowed to keep a death "secret", for any reason???????
It shows their lack of respect for human life; their beleif that humans are inventory to be channelled as they wish
You are the one who never knew George was alive until he was dead. You are the one who has no drop of human feeling for him one way or the other. You are the one who wants to turn him into inventory.
That's pretty rich for someone who advocates abducting, imprisoning, (and torturing) human beings for profit to accuse a civillian of treating people like invetory. YOU LITTERALLY TRANSFORM PEOPLE INTO INVENTORY, BOUGHT AND SOLD BY THEIR PARENTS
How the hell would i know of him until i found about him on this forum? Do you know every person in the world? Do you know every person who died in the holocaust, or in the genocide of the Native Americans?
Would starting a memorial in their honour with dates, the nature of the death, whom was responisble, and how, be "tuning them into inventory"?
Why would there be no controvesy over that, yet controversy over this?
Psy, it you put up a memoial give details. It's not fair to the kid not to. He deserves his story told.
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You wanna back that statement up with some independently gathered statistics? Aahh... that's right. There are none, because industry members know that such statistics would likely show the "Fornits side" of the story to be more accurate. With the money they have, if such statistics could be produced, they would be (but they can't).
We can all speculate on what the outcome of the study would be, but none of us know. Companies are not going to fund a study unless they know what they are going to do with the results, so there needs to be some sort of motivation to have the study done.
As it stands today the industry is doing well. The schools are running to near capacity, the feedback from the kids and family via oral and mail-out surveys are showing success, so how would a clinical study benefit anyone?
I think the competition between schools and programs (the struggle for market share) would have to dictate the need to perform a study to show better performance. The schools could use this data to sway parents to their program and gain an advantage over their competing schools.
But until such time as there are too many schools and too few kids then I don’t see anyone paying for clinical studies.
Well. I can't prove to you that my motivations are sincere. Perhaps that's why you chose to question me on this. What I don't do is make a buck off dead kids' testimonials (like Seth H.)
I believe you,psy, and have always thought you were fair and did the right thing. I have a hard time when people assume a child took their life because of a specific event. Kids suffer a long time and struggle with many issues before most of them succeed in taking their own life. For any of us to say it was because his girlfriend broke up with him, or a staff member at Benchmark, or some guy on the street screaming at him and calling him a loser or his parents last phone call was the last straw is a stab in the dark at best…we don’t know.
I find it hard to swallow that everytime a child takes his life, that has attended a program, then the program was automatically at fault. Kids have been committing suicide long before programs started springing up and many kids show up at the schools doorstep with a history of attempts.
What about you? What's your cause? Who do you work for? Why not tell us all here. It's not like it's a name or anything.
I have told my story many times here and why I post here. I had a daughter attend a TBS and thought I could contribute and add a long needed balance to this forum.
Someday when the industry gets cleaned up a little more and some of the anger subsides we will all get together and have a big party and talk about old times here on fornits, but for now, I think it is best to stay anonymous.
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Someday when the industry gets cleaned up a little more and some of the anger subsides we will all get together and have a big party and talk about old times here on fornits,
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You are a child torturer. You are a child murderer. But, unlike John Wayne Gacy, you do it not out of mental illness, but craven greed and evil.
You are the paid hitman for bain capital, owner of crc health, owner of ASPEN EDUCATION
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is benchmark 70K a year?
55k/year plus expenses (revolving fund, etc...) roughly equates to 70k a year.
Not a bad price considering your average 30 day rehab runs you $6,000 to $7,000 (out of pocket). Insurance companies pay a little less.
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Bainspeak
= > As it stands today the industry is doing well. The schools are running to near capacity, the feedback from the kids and family via oral and mail-out surveys are showing success, so how would a clinical study benefit anyone?
schools are running to near capacity
bainspeak bainspeak bainspeak bainspeak
the feedback from the kids and family via oral and mail-out surveys are showing success
So you're in the marketing department......
(the struggle for market share)
bainspeak bainspeak bainspeak bainspeak
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The schools are running to near capacity, the feedback from the kids and family via oral and mail-out surveys are showing success
Now hold up mister "just a parent"... how would you know any of this?
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Who, stop talking out of your ass.
I know of two kids who killed themselves when threatened by their parents with being sent back to a program.
How's that for "statistics"? Wonder how many more kids killed themselves rather than be sent back to a program? Unfortunately, we will never know the exact number just like we don't know how many kids are currently being abused in the name of "treatment". Even one is one too many.
:flame: :flame:
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Who, stop talking out of your ass.
I know of two kids who killed themselves when threatened by their parents with being sent back to a program.
How's that for "statistics"? Wonder how many more kids killed themselves rather than be sent back to a program? Unfortunately, we will never know the exact number just like we don't know how many kids are currently being abused in the name of "treatment". Even one is one too many.
:flame: :flame:
My guess is that one third of the kids go on to die prematurely from program realted injuries. I say this based on statements i find on this forum like: 'i am a cedu graduate. There were 12 of us in my (group),
there are only 5 of us left.'
How many kids would that be?
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Right then. I'm all for creating a fund for building a memorial to honor every single one of them.
I love my early mornings. never used to get up till I absolutely had to but now I relish every minute of my solitude on these days when I have it for awhile before the kids get up. I'm not alone, though. Not really. I'm hanging with my ancestors, my better angels and my own thoughts, looking out at the cold beautiful snowy landscape in my warm little home. Who would have known? I
One thing my rents taught me so well was the value of thrift. It's better, more satisfying and just plain more sane to do a thing well with little or no money than to buy it. Money is not always evil, but it is always a marker or symbol for some thing of value, not the thing itself. It takes your time and effort to get it and then you pass it along to someone else who, in turn, takes it in trade for their craft and sweat and effort. It causes a separation from those truly valuable, meaningful, god acts. That's why dogs, frogs and dolphins are always smiling. "Yeah, so we ain't got no thumbs. We ain't got no jobs or money either, suckers! Hahaha!"
Anyway, here's an idea I tried to get going a long time ago, never took off. Maybe the time is right now. Go to your local lumber store and get the best price you can find on shim wood. That's what my dad called them, there's probably another name for the product. These are pieces of 3rd rate light wood cut to about 1.5" x .25" x however many feet. Get some white paint, a light staple gun and a sharpie. Assemble them into crosses of about 1' x 2' and cut the bottom into a V shape, paint them and toss them into your trunk. Whenever you think of it and have some time to kill; whenever you come across an appropriate setting, jump out and plant one or a dozen of them bearing the names and life dates of someone you mourn. If a whole lot of us start doing this, it'll make people curious.
Here are some examples of good target locations for Straight/Seed/PFC/KHK vets. Eckerd Drug stores (Jack Eckerd was tied in) Sembler Properties. The Skyway Bridge in St. Pete (I can't remember who jumped there, some of my friends down that way would know) And, of course, any program operating any kind of facilities in your area or the current business places of program principles.
What would be the impact in the Alexandria, Va area if little white memorial crosses kept cropping up like mushrooms after a rain on various parts of the T. C. Williams High School campus bearing the names of Straight, Inc. suicide victims on the front and www.melriddile.info (http://www.melriddile.info) on the back? Never know till we try. It would take far less effort and time than a protest, so it's sustainable. And even if it never makes a perceptible impact on the public, it's bound to make a few people wonder what's up and may well do you some good personally.
Just an idea. Pick your own targets. You know of a hotel that regularly hosts parent seminars? A healthcare provider that colludes with programs to treat clients and keep secrets? How about a banking institution that funds these gulags? Or a politician who takes the blood money? Program influence is so pervasive, the list of possible target locations is practically endless. Make it personal.
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How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?
You are merely making a counterfactual statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.
Napoleon would have won the war if he had not invaded Russia during the winter. Maybe yes, maybe no.
You had better be armed with better proofs than that if you want to convince anyone outside of Fornits.
That's the whole point of investigation; to attain the facts and proofs to better understand what happened.Finally, we're staring to see the light at the end of the tunnel! Thanks for your support and look out for oncoming trains.
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I don’t feel comfortable posting it openly on fornits. I don’t think it would be a wise thing to do…sack or no sack.
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Darlin', my whole native family are still in the cult. If I could have, in good concience, kept my mouth shut, they probably wouldn't treat me as an infidel. I've been sued and harassed in various ways by your tribe and many of my friends and family just don't understand why this is worth the trip to me. Going public with this dark and complicated shit has not been comfortable for me either. Butch up or shut up, pussy!
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Here are some examples of good target locations for Straight/Seed/PFC/KHK vets. Eckerd Drug stores (Jack Eckerd was tied in) Sembler Properties. The Skyway Bridge in St. Pete (I can't remember who jumped there, some of my friends down that way would know) And, of course, any program operating any kind of facilities in your area or the current business places of program principles.
Eckerd's sold off the drugstores years ago to new owners.
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How do you know that George's family lost George "via these means," i.e., Benchmark?
You are merely making a counterfactual* statement: George would not have committed suicide if he had not gone to Benchmark.
Well. Here are the facts: George was already suicidal. He was clinically diagnosed as bipolar. How do I know this, as well as his name? Jayne Longnecker told me when I interviewed her back in Nov of 06 (so much for patient confidentiality. or student confidentiality, or whatever...)
Yup. He was clearly a danger to himself and he wanted to get help. He didn't. Instead, he was yelled at, berated, and browbeaten until he could no longer stand it and killed himself (according to multiple eye witness accounts). He should have gotten legitimate therapy, he should have felt accepted and loved. He didn't. Benchmark advertised to be able to help him and it was criminally irresponsible (IMO) for them to accept him in the condition he was already in. They told parents I have interviewed that they had qualified counselors on staff and 24 hour supervision (yeah, I got video tape) and all that jazz. They told my parents the same. They lied.
Bravo! Ya'll see why this kid impresses me so?
[quote"Psy"]
If they had told the truth it would have been something like "we hire a bunch of junkies straight outta rehab cuz it's cheap labor and costs a hell of a lot less than paying staff that actually graduated high school, much less college. Our staff can't probably even spell your kid's disorder but will do their best to 'treat' it as an addiction." If you're a parent, I dare you to go do some background checks on some of the staff, then ask yourself where the hell your 70k/year is going.[/quote]
I think we all should be very careful when trying to gauge the motivations of others. I'm sure cost and convenience are part of the motive here, but that's penny-wise and pound-foolish. This has been going on for, shit!, since the advent of Bill Wilson's mutual using society and drinking club as a model for 'treatment' and as a business since Chuck "U Farley" Dederich set himself up as the God of Synanon. And it has involved a good many very shrewd business people, politicians, strategists, etc. If cost effectiveness were the primary motivation, it wouldn't have lasted this long. The industry probably spends more on litigation and cover-ups even than on lobbying and advertising. It doesn't make sense--the explanation doesn't cover the question.
Occam's razor dictates that we find another motive that better fits the continued nonsensical behaviour. So look to nonsensical belief. Faith in Sacred Science, imo, better fits the objective facts as well as my own personal experience with cult members. (As noted above, I've had better than average motivation to ponder that aspect of things over ... shit, the last 35 of my 42 years) I think the overriding motivation is the irrational, cultic, stayed belief that having completed and accepted the program imparts to the reprobate God-like powers of perception and healing. Silly shit, to be sure. But not at all unusual in human behavior. How many Scientologists believe in Xanu? How many otherwise reasonable, intelligent Christians believe, literally, in angels? It fits, doesn't it?
Ever your dedicated inactivist,
Scarlet Chiclet (honorary Seedling from age 6 or so, endowed with super Awareness and an "old soul", according to Art Barker his own self!)
* We don't know that it's counterfactual. Contempt prior to investigation, my brainwashed friend. If you have faith [belief unsupported by evidence] in your convictions, then you shouldn't be skeert of the evidence.
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Eckherdt as in the drug stores :o Arent they like Walgrens for sheer market size in some parts? Does this industry have the entire American Establishment behind it or what ??????
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lols... one of these days when my face doesn't feel like falling off from sheer exhaustion I'll explain how Jack Eckerd got into the business.
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* We don't know that it's counterfactual. Contempt prior to investigation, my brainwashed friend. If you have faith [belief unsupported by evidence] in your convictions, then you shouldn't be skeert of the evidence.
Scared of the evidence? Bring it on!
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I don’t feel comfortable posting it openly on fornits. I don’t think it would be a wise thing to do…sack or no sack.
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Darlin', my whole native family are still in the cult. If I could have, in good concience, kept my mouth shut, they probably wouldn't treat me as an infidel. I've been sued and harassed in various ways by your tribe and many of my friends and family just don't understand why this is worth the trip to me. Going public with this dark and complicated shit has not been comfortable for me either. Butch up or shut up, pussy!
Know how you feel there. If I could hold my opinions closer to my vest I wouldn’t have lost my first few jobs when I got out of college and wouldnt have bent many noses out of shape. But if I see something that isn’t right or goes against my moral believes I speak my mind whether I want to or not. It has gotten me in more trouble and cost me more money than then you would believe.
If I thought producing my identity would make a difference one way or another I would consider it. The decision isn’t based on my levels of testosterone. Someday when this is all behind us and all the damaging schools are closed down, regulation is defined (for those of you that want that) and implemented. We can all get together at the Barclay Prime down in Rittenhouse Square, exchange names and stories, toast our successes and feel good the kids are getting the help they need, deserve and are in good hands.
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Someday when this is all behind us and all the damaging schools are closed down, regulation is defined (for those of you that want that) and implemented. We can all get together at the Barclay Prime down in Rittenhouse Square, exchange names and stories, toast our successes and feel good the kids are getting the help they need, deserve and are in good hands.
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:o :o :o :o :question: :o :question: :o :o
the who works for BAIN CAPITAL, owner of CRC HEALTH, owner of ASPEN EDUCATION
BAIN CAPITAL is founded and funds pres, candidate MITT ROMNEY
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Someday when this is all behind us and all the damaging schools are closed down, regulation is defined (for those of you that want that) and implemented. We can all get together at the Barclay Prime down in Rittenhouse Square, exchange names and stories, toast our successes and feel good the kids are getting the help they need, deserve and are in good hands.
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:o :o :o :o :question: :o :question: :o :o
the who works for BAIN CAPITAL, owner of CRC HEALTH, owner of ASPEN EDUCATION
BAIN CAPITAL is founded and funds pres, candidate MITT ROMNEY
THIS is exactly the type of post we should see more of! Posts that lay it down with no need to wade through PAGE LONG articles!
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with posting articles, but not everyone wants to read long articles. I'm one of them, at least most of the time. I like books, but I don't really like reading long articles online that much. It's just a personal thing. No offense to anyone who likes to post long articles, yes at least they're doing something...y'know, i'm just saying..
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That's the point your moral compass is broken.
Instead of "N" at the top of your compass there is a "$" sign and a "C" for cult.
What an artistic tough guy - he bends noses.
Everyone bow down and chant - hmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnn. TBS mother teresa has shared 'end of the tunnel' party visions. Mel Wasserman visits him at night and preaches celebration gospel to him. Apparently we all drink Jim Jones beverages, give eachother reach arounds and praise the modern day saviour, outsourced parenting. I'm sure TBS protocol for reacharounds is to walk away half way through.
Before invitations are doled out you might want to do some party planning. In this case:
1. Get the facts straight. Belief is for suicide bombers not kids from broken homes. Collect the facts and present them.
2. Get the industry to own up to it's corrupt foundations, 25+ year track record of cult practices. Get lon woodbury to print and acknowledge the truth.
3. If you care so much, launch a 'get your shit together' camp for unfit partents. Gee - that might help, not subjecting kids to the entire shitstorm.
4. Make the industry wipe it's own ass. They've created a leigon of disgruntled graduates. When you throw a party you have to clean up afterwards. Can anyone say Vietnam vets being spit on when coming home?
Have fun at the pookey party. I'm sure Lon gives a hell of handi.
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Someday when this is all behind us and all the damaging schools are closed down, regulation is defined (for those of you that want that) and implemented. We can all get together at the Barclay Prime down in Rittenhouse Square, exchange names and stories, toast our successes and feel good the kids are getting the help they need, deserve and are in good hands.
...
:o :o :o :o :question: :o :question: :o :o
the who works for BAIN CAPITAL, owner of CRC HEALTH, owner of ASPEN EDUCATION
BAIN CAPITAL is founded and funds pres, candidate MITT ROMNEY
THIS is exactly the type of post we should see more of! Posts that lay it down with no need to wade through PAGE LONG articles!
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with posting articles, but not everyone wants to read long articles. I'm one of them, at least most of the time. I like books, but I don't really like reading long articles online that much. It's just a personal thing. No offense to anyone who likes to post long articles, yes at least they're doing something...y'know, i'm just saying..
I hear ya, what I usually do, if the post is extremely long, is give a brief synopses, hilight areas of interest and then provide a link so the reader can choose to read the whole report if they choose to. No need to post a novel.
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Well. Here are the facts: George was already suicidal. He was clinically diagnosed as bipolar. How do I know this, as well as his name? Jayne Longnecker told me when I interviewed her back in Nov of 06 (so much for patient confidentiality. or student confidentiality, or whatever...)
Yup. He was clearly a danger to himself and he wanted to get help. He didn't. Instead, he was yelled at, berated, and browbeaten until he could no longer stand it and killed himself (according to multiple eye witness accounts). He should have gotten legitimate therapy, he should have felt accepted and loved. He didn't. Benchmark advertised to be able to help him and it was criminally irresponsible (IMO) for them to accept him in the condition he was already in. They told parents I have interviewed that they had qualified counselors on staff and 24 hour supervision (yeah, I got video tape) and all that jazz. They told my parents the same. They lied.
Psy,
I'm not a substitute for TheWho, or whatever you choose to call him. (God forbid, I'm very busy and have a family to support.) Consider me rather your average open-minded jury member.
First, you impress me as a sympathetic and articulate young man. I don't get the impression that you're an egotistical two-bit con artist playing the saint. On the contrary, I trust that your intentions are honorable and good.
Here's my gut feeling given the information in your post. If you had told me that George was the picture of mental fitness before going to Benchmark I would say, Hmmm, Benchmark might really be responsible for his suicide. But you candidly acknowledge that George was suicidal when he went to Benchmark. Now, as a jury member, I believe you've already lost your case. Given the bipolar disorder, the suicidal tendencies, and possibly even the suicide attempts, you would find it difficult to prove that Benchmark caused him to commit suicide. At most, I'd say, you could argue that it failed to prevent a suicide, that it's not a good place to send such a kid.
And having been through a program myself I know first hand that Benchmark may have factored into George's suicide. But I don't think you can convincingly claim that Benchmark, and Benchmark alone, caused George to commit suicide.
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What killed George was the asshole staff member who was verbally riding him like a damn mule just prior to him taking a swan dive off a rail road bridge.
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What killed George was the asshole staff member who was verbally riding him like a damn mule just prior to him taking a swan dive off a rail road bridge.
I have two years' experience of asshole staff members verbally riding me like a damn mule, and I'm alive to say it.
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What killed George was the asshole staff member who was verbally riding him like a damn mule just prior to him taking a swan dive off a rail road bridge.
I have two years' experience of asshole staff members verbally riding me like a damn mule, and I'm alive to say it.
Asshole, why is this difficult to comprehend?
If you torture a kid with the intention of detstorying their minds through brain modification techniques spearheaded by the thought reform "brain restructuring" prisons of north korea and china, some kids won't survive, others will.
Similarly, if you shoot a kid in the head some will survive, others won't. Some will recover with remarkabley little damage, many will recover partially, but never have the strenght and capabilities they once had. Some will be frail previously to being shot in the head, and those will most suseptable to injury and death.
however, it's the shooter that is "responsible" for the death, because they caused grevious injury to another human being in a gross, violating, torturous fashion.
i don't beleive you've actually been in a program, (or have a functional brain) or this concept would be pretty simple to grasp.
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What killed George was the asshole staff member who was verbally riding him like a damn mule just prior to him taking a swan dive off a rail road bridge.
I have two years' experience of asshole staff members verbally riding me like a damn mule, and I'm alive to say it.
You like being ridden like a mule. You don't know any better. You're a follower. If other people didn't make decisions for you you'd still be deciding what to have for breakfast last week.
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What killed George was the asshole staff member who was verbally riding him like a damn mule just prior to him taking a swan dive off a rail road bridge.
I have two years' experience of asshole staff members verbally riding me like a damn mule, and I'm alive to say it.
Asshole, why is this difficult to comprehend?
If you torture a kid with the intention of detstorying their minds through brain modification techniques spearheaded by the thought reform "brain restructuring" prisons of north korea and china, some kids won't survive, others will.
Similarly, if you shoot a kid in the head some will survive, others won't. Some will recover with remarkabley little damage, many will recover partially, but never have the strenght and capabilities they once had. Some will be frail previously to being shot in the head, and those will most suseptable to injury and death.
however, it's the shooter that is "responsible" for the death, because they caused grevious injury to another human being in a gross, violating, torturous fashion.
i don't beleive you've actually been in a program, (or have a functional brain) or this concept would be pretty simple to grasp.
The number of survivors of Russian roulette (or Auschwitz, or whatever dumb rhetorical analogy you cook up) about equals the number of suicides of programs.
As for my attending a program, there are those on these forums who will attest it. You are free to delude yourself, however.
-
Seems what people are trying to say is that the cause of Georges death is unknown, he might have just received a letter from an ex-girlfriend or family member that effected him emotionally. We need to remember that he was suffering prior to Benchmark. If he was working at McDonalds just prior to taking his life I am sure the anti-fast food people would blame McDonalds for his death.
...
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What killed George was the asshole staff member who was verbally riding him like a damn mule just prior to him taking a swan dive off a rail road bridge.
I have two years' experience of asshole staff members verbally riding me like a damn mule, and I'm alive to say it.
You like being ridden like a mule. You don't know any better. You're a follower. If other people didn't make decisions for you you'd still be deciding what to have for breakfast last week.
DDF, I expected more of you than the usual badmouthing of anyone who approaches George's suicide with a modicum of objectivity. Guess I was wrong.
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The Who - Substitute
TBS = outsourced parenting (substitue)
You think we look pretty good together
You think my shoes are made of leather
But I'm a substitute for another guy
I look pretty tall but my heels are high
The simple things you see are all complicated
I look pretty young, but I'm just back-dated, yeah
Substitute your lies for fact
I can see right through your plastic mac
I look all white, but my dad was black
My fine looking suit is really made out of sack
I was born with a plastic spoon in my mouth
The north side of my town faced east, and the east was facing south
And now you dare to look me in the eye
Those crocodile tears are what you cry
It's a genuine problem, you won't try
To work it out at all you just pass it by, pass it by
Substitute me for him
Substitute my coke for gin
Substitute you for my mum
At least I'll get my washing done
-
What killed George was the asshole staff member who was verbally riding him like a damn mule just prior to him taking a swan dive off a rail road bridge.
I have two years' experience of asshole staff members verbally riding me like a damn mule, and I'm alive to say it.
Asshole, why is this difficult to comprehend?
If you torture a kid with the intention of detstorying their minds through brain modification techniques spearheaded by the thought reform "brain restructuring" prisons of north korea and china, some kids won't survive, others will.
Similarly, if you shoot a kid in the head some will survive, others won't. Some will recover with remarkabley little damage, many will recover partially, but never have the strenght and capabilities they once had. Some will be frail previously to being shot in the head, and those will most suseptable to injury and death.
however, it's the shooter that is "responsible" for the death, because they caused grevious injury to another human being in a gross, violating, torturous fashion.
i don't beleive you've actually been in a program, (or have a functional brain) or this concept would be pretty simple to grasp.
The number of survivors of Russian roulette (or Auschwitz, or whatever dumb rhetorical analogy you cook up) about equals the number of suicides of programs.
.
Why is it dumb?
Read over this forum. I came across a thread where a cedu survivor reported that out of 12 kids in his peer group, only 5 are still alive. Half of the kids I kept in touch with have offed themselves.
Whether the proportion of kids that kill themselves is as high as the proportion of kids who die who ended up in Auschwitz, is to a certain extant, immaterial.
If a group of victims are shot in the stomach that group will die in proportionally lower numbers than a group of victims shot in the head. However, the criminal inflicting the grievous, potentially mortal, physical injury remains responsible. Brainwashing via torture inflicts grievous, potentially mortal, physical injury. It DESTROYS the brain, and purposely creates as psychologically terrifying and despair inducing environment
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What killed George was the asshole staff member who was verbally riding him like a damn mule just prior to him taking a swan dive off a rail road bridge.
I have two years' experience of asshole staff members verbally riding me like a damn mule, and I'm alive to say it.
Asshole, why is this difficult to comprehend?
If you torture a kid with the intention of detstorying their minds through brain modification techniques spearheaded by the thought reform "brain restructuring" prisons of north korea and china, some kids won't survive, others will.
Similarly, if you shoot a kid in the head some will survive, others won't. Some will recover with remarkabley little damage, many will recover partially, but never have the strenght and capabilities they once had. Some will be frail previously to being shot in the head, and those will most suseptable to injury and death.
however, it's the shooter that is "responsible" for the death, because they caused grevious injury to another human being in a gross, violating, torturous fashion.
i don't beleive you've actually been in a program, (or have a functional brain) or this concept would be pretty simple to grasp.
The number of survivors of Russian roulette (or Auschwitz, or whatever dumb rhetorical analogy you cook up) about equals the number of suicides of programs.
.
Why is it dumb?
Read over this forum. I came across a thread where a cedu survivor reported that out of 12 kids in his peer group, only 5 are still alive. Half of the kids I kept in touch with have offed themselves.
Whether the proportion of kids that kill themselves is as high as the proportion of kids who die who ended up in Auschwitz, is to a certain extant, immaterial.
If a group of victims are shot in the stomach that group will die in proportionally lower numbers than a group of victims shot in the head. However, the criminal inflicting the grievous, potentially mortal, physical injury remains responsible. Brainwashing via torture inflicts grievous, potentially mortal, physical injury. It DESTROYS the brain, and purposely creates as psychologically terrifying and despair inducing environment
Look, you can say whatever the hell you want here. Fornits is a state of anarchy. It'll be interesting to see what happens when anarchy and civilization collide.
If there is model of civic and social organization here, it's this:
A web.
A hungry spider.
A lot of flies.
-
huh?
Also, it's not anarchy over here, truly.
look, for example, i went in "normal", was tortured, and came out suicdal. Therefore, someone who goes in suicidal has a strong liklihood of ending up dead. They're weaker fromt he start and easier to hurt. it's not complicated
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Dish duty fugitive
I never did anything for anyone
except myself.
My parents called me a
Lazy elf.
While all my brothers and sisters
Helped out and went to school
I disrespected them and
called them sheep.
Baaa!! Baaa!!
Baaa!! Baaa!!
I screwed with their heads and
Short sheeted their beds.
Until one day I was awoken from
A deep sleep.
My Family sucks
My family sucks
That’s all I knew, until my escorts
dropped me off at CEDU.
I knew I could beat them by being
My lazy old self.
Everyone there eventually started
pulling their weight.
But no one could get me to
Wash one single plate.
I am the dish duty fugitive, yeah!!
I am the dish duty fugitive, yeah!!
Says who? CEDU
Says who? CEDU
I finally finished my time without
Improving Myself.
I am still the same old
lazy elf.
All my family members have
All grown and my friends
Have matured.
But I beat them
all to the door.
How do I know?
Because I am just as fucked up as before.
But I finally realized life isn’t a game
And I look all around for someone to blame .
My parents still owe me a life and
never should have sent me away.
But I will get even someday
when I finally succeed,
in spite of all this alcohol and weed.
I will get a promotion soon
I just know it, I flip the burgers and
Dunk the fries in the afternoon.
But when my boss asks for volunteers
to help clean up the pots and
pans for overtime pay
I just have to jump and down and say:
I am the dish duty fugitive, yeah!!
I am the dish duty fugitive, yeah!!
Says who? CEDU
Says who? CEDU
-
My graduation song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2spZ-NDfS4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2spZ-NDfS4)
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What killed George was the asshole staff member who was verbally riding him like a damn mule just prior to him taking a swan dive off a rail road bridge.
I have two years' experience of asshole staff members verbally riding me like a damn mule, and I'm alive to say it.
Asshole, why is this difficult to comprehend?
If you torture a kid with the intention of detstorying their minds through brain modification techniques spearheaded by the thought reform "brain restructuring" prisons of north korea and china, some kids won't survive, others will.
Similarly, if you shoot a kid in the head some will survive, others won't. Some will recover with remarkabley little damage, many will recover partially, but never have the strenght and capabilities they once had. Some will be frail previously to being shot in the head, and those will most suseptable to injury and death.
however, it's the shooter that is "responsible" for the death, because they caused grevious injury to another human being in a gross, violating, torturous fashion.
i don't beleive you've actually been in a program, (or have a functional brain) or this concept would be pretty simple to grasp.
The number of survivors of Russian roulette (or Auschwitz, or whatever dumb rhetorical analogy you cook up) about equals the number of suicides of programs.
As for my attending a program, there are those on these forums who will attest it. You are free to delude yourself, however.
:rofl: :rofl:
PROTIP: Some are sicker than others.
-
huh?
Also, it's not anarchy over here, truly.
look, for example, i went in "normal", was tortured, and came out suicdal. Therefore, someone who goes in suicidal has a strong liklihood of ending up dead. They're weaker fromt he start and easier to hurt. it's not complicated
That the standard program mix of brainwashing and abuse is bad and that kids have varying degrees of susceptibility to it are axioms to me too.
But to the best of my knowledge there are NO known or even rumored suicides discussed on the Hyde forum. (I'm counting on Ursus to find one or two counterexamples, though. :wink: )
Conclusion: The link between programs and suicide is negligible to nonexistent.
-
Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.
Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.
It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.
My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.
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Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.
Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.
It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.
My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.
I am curious. Was the suicide advertised in the paper? Obituary announcing the cause of death, time and talk a little about the persons accomplishments?
-
huh?
Also, it's not anarchy over here, truly.
look, for example, i went in "normal", was tortured, and came out suicdal. Therefore, someone who goes in suicidal has a strong liklihood of ending up dead. They're weaker fromt he start and easier to hurt. it's not complicated
That the standard program mix of brainwashing and abuse is bad and that kids have varying degrees of susceptibility to it are axioms to me too.
But to the best of my knowledge there are NO known or even rumored suicides discussed on the Hyde forum. (I'm counting on Ursus to find one or two counterexamples, though. :wink: )
Conclusion: The link between programs and suicide is negligible to nonexistent.
Your conclusion makes no logical sense from your supposition
Look bitch, my best friend went into program a happy outgoing girl was "ruined" by program, and promptly killed herself. I went from being "normal" to SERIOUSLY mentally ill. I had a personality split, "autism"- a constant trance like state that lasted almost two years, suicial obsession..and other issues i won't get into. STOP THE BULLSHIT. TORURE DESIGNED TO DESTROY THE BRAIN ACTUALLY SUCCEEDS IN DESTROYING THE BRAIN. Go away troll
And i doubt that beleif you have about Hyde.
Ursus, want to answer some questions? I don't really understand hyde anyway. It doesn't sound like a program, exactly.
-
The schools are running to near capacity, the feedback from the kids and family via oral and mail-out surveys are showing success
Now hold up mister "just a parent"... how would you know any of this?
answer Psy's question, Whooter
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The schools are running to near capacity, the feedback from the kids and family via oral and mail-out surveys are showing success
Now hold up mister "just a parent"... how would you know any of this?
answer Psy's question, Whooter
Already did
http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=302096#302096
-
huh?
Also, it's not anarchy over here, truly.
look, for example, i went in "normal", was tortured, and came out suicdal. Therefore, someone who goes in suicidal has a strong liklihood of ending up dead. They're weaker fromt he start and easier to hurt. it's not complicated
That the standard program mix of brainwashing and abuse is bad and that kids have varying degrees of susceptibility to it are axioms to me too.
But to the best of my knowledge there are NO known or even rumored suicides discussed on the Hyde forum. (I'm counting on Ursus to find one or two counterexamples, though. :wink: )
Conclusion: The link between programs and suicide is negligible to nonexistent.
Your conclusion makes no logical sense from your supposition
Look bitch, my best friend went into program a happy outgoing girl was "ruined" by program, and promptly killed herself. I went from being "normal" to SERIOUSLY mentally ill. I had a personality split, "autism"- a constant trance like state that lasted almost two years, suicial obsession..and other issues i won't get into. STOP THE BULLSHIT. TORURE DESIGNED TO DESTROY THE BRAIN ACTUALLY SUCCEEDS IN DESTROYING THE BRAIN. Go away troll
And i doubt that beleif you have about Hyde.
Ursus, want to answer some questions? I don't really understand hyde anyway. It doesn't sound like a program, exactly.
Okay, Mike and Guest... The issue of suicide has been discussed but spottily on the Hyde forum, but it has been brought up. I think people are ashamed/embarrassed; it is a difficult subject to broach. It would appear as though one of the coping mechanisms for surviving the Hyde bullshit is to incorporate a certain amount of arrogance or braggadocio into one's persona. I think we've seen this again and again, even with otherwise very personable sorts. Perhaps this might help to make the incidence of suicide less? I don't know...
To my knowledge, there was only one case of an actual death at Hyde, and this was during the 1987-88 school year. The causal factor was attributed to an enlarged heart. Incidentally, this was also the cause attributed to the kid who died after being in the Ring at Elan.
I think the "danger period" for suicide is actually in the ten or so years after you get out, when what you've been indoctrinated in for the past several years meets the "real world," and the juxtaposition of the two do not comport. I think program puts you in the frame of mind to judge things as absolutes, much like AA does regarding one's drinking or falling off the wagon. Joe Gauld used to say that if you can't make it at Hyde, then you can't make it anywhere. The corollary being, of course, that if you fail at Hyde, you've failed at life.
As to actual bonafide cases, NC's death was rumored to have at the least a very great assist from suicidal intentions. I don't think she was in great shape when she came to Hyde; circumstances prior to her enrollment would have suggested some serious and nurturing therapy, and that is certainly not what she got at Hyde. You know that she had tried before she even got to Hyde, Mike? SF also tried a few years post-Hyde; that was definitely tied into what happened to her there. There are a couple of other kids who went through some serious rough spots, but those kids are either dead due to "other causes" or I've lost track of them. I've lost track of most of them so the fact that I can even bring up some says something. And then there is myself, of course.
It is at this point, Mike, that you usually do your typical about-face and try to skewer me for my words, and you might as well go right ahead; have at it, buddy. I don't give a shit. I think the mere fact that you are trying to poke holes in Benchmark's culpability in George's death just about says it all, as per where you are coming from.
I've read a few posts of other Hyde kids that intimated consideration of this route, but I don't actually know those people well enough to vouch for that. Again, it is really hard to track cases, 'cuz people that don't do well there tend to disappear. And I don't think this kind of stuff usually shows up immediately after you get out. For a while, you're running around like a chicken with your head cut off, trying to "prove them wrong." Then... reality, and fatality, sets in.
As to Guest's question about Hyde being a program or not, I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that it most definitely is. It fucks with your mind and sucks out any capacity to critically assess the relative value of your life's experiences. Perhaps not everyone that went to Hyde feels that way, but I found it to be a very crippling influence on my life. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have lived my life differently, and more fully, had I not gone to Hyde. And that is about the most pathetic understatement I can come up with today.
Take it from Vanda M, "recent" Hyde graduate, Landmark Forum devotee, and currently enthralled with Ramtha's School of Enlightenment: "I've been involved in cults all my life, ha ha!" (spoken in a 2006 radio interview vis a vis Hyde, and her going back for her diploma nigh 30 years after her last attendance there).
-
huh?
Also, it's not anarchy over here, truly.
look, for example, i went in "normal", was tortured, and came out suicdal. Therefore, someone who goes in suicidal has a strong liklihood of ending up dead. They're weaker fromt he start and easier to hurt. it's not complicated
That the standard program mix of brainwashing and abuse is bad and that kids have varying degrees of susceptibility to it are axioms to me too.
But to the best of my knowledge there are NO known or even rumored suicides discussed on the Hyde forum. (I'm counting on Ursus to find one or two counterexamples, though. :wink: )
Conclusion: The link between programs and suicide is negligible to nonexistent.
Your conclusion makes no logical sense from your supposition
Look bitch, my best friend went into program a happy outgoing girl was "ruined" by program, and promptly killed herself. I went from being "normal" to SERIOUSLY mentally ill. I had a personality split, "autism"- a constant trance like state that lasted almost two years, suicial obsession..and other issues i won't get into. STOP THE BULLSHIT. TORURE DESIGNED TO DESTROY THE BRAIN ACTUALLY SUCCEEDS IN DESTROYING THE BRAIN. Go away troll
And i doubt that beleif you have about Hyde.
Ursus, want to answer some questions? I don't really understand hyde anyway. It doesn't sound like a program, exactly.
Okay, Mike and Guest... The issue of suicide has been discussed but spottily on the Hyde forum, but it has been brought up. I think people are ashamed/embarrassed; it is a difficult subject to broach. It would appear as though one of the coping mechanisms for surviving the Hyde bullshit is to incorporate a certain amount of arrogance or braggadocio into one's persona. I think we've seen this again and again, even with otherwise very personable sorts. Perhaps this might help to make the incidence of suicide less? I don't know...
To my knowledge, there was only one case of an actual death at Hyde, and this was during the 1987-88 school year. The causal factor was attributed to an enlarged heart. Incidentally, this was also the cause attributed to the kid who died after being in the Ring at Elan.
I think the "danger period" for suicide is actually in the ten or so years after you get out, when what you've been indoctrinated in for the past several years meets the "real world," and the juxtaposition of the two do not comport. I think program puts you in the frame of mind to judge things as absolutes, much like AA does regarding one's drinking or falling off the wagon. Joe Gauld used to say that if you can't make it at Hyde, then you can't make it anywhere. The corollary being, of course, that if you fail at Hyde, you've failed at life.
As to actual bonafide cases, NC's death was rumored to have at the least a very great assist from suicidal intentions. I don't think she was in great shape when she came to Hyde; circumstances prior to her enrollment would have suggested some serious and nurturing therapy, and that is certainly not what she got at Hyde. You know that she had tried before she even got to Hyde, Mike? SF also tried a few years post-Hyde; that was definitely tied into what happened to her there. There are a couple of other kids who went through some serious rough spots, but those kids are either dead due to "other causes" or I've lost track of them. I've lost track of most of them so the fact that I can even bring up some says something. And then there is myself, of course.
It is at this point, Mike, that you usually do your typical about-face and try to skewer me for my words, and you might as well go right ahead; have at it, buddy. I don't give a shit. I think the mere fact that you are trying to poke holes in Benchmark's culpability in George's death just about says it all as per where you are coming from.
I've read a few posts of other kids that intimated consideration of this route, but I don't actually know those people well enough to vouch for that. Again, it is really hard to track cases, 'cuz people that don't do well there tend to disappear. And I don't think this kind of stuff usually shows up immediately after you get out. For a while, you're running around like a chicken with your head cut off, trying to "prove them wrong." Then... reality, and fatality, sets in.
As to Guest's question about Hyde being a program or not, I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that it most definitely is. It fucks with your mind and sucks out any capacity to critically assess the relative value of your life's experiences. Perhaps not everyone that went to Hyde feels that way, but I found it to be a very crippling influence on my life. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have lived my life differently, and more fully, had I not gone to Hyde. And that is about the most pathetic understatement I can come up with today.
Take it from Vanda M, Hyde graduate, Landmark Forum devotee, and currently enthralled with Ramtha's School of Enlightenment: "I've been involved in cults all my life, ha ha!" (spoken in a radio interview vis a vis Hyde, and her going back for her diploma nigh 30 years after her last attendance there).
Do you mean NC with a capital Nina? I heard she died in a car wreck.
Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.
The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.
Mike
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Well. Here are the facts: George was already suicidal. He was clinically diagnosed as bipolar. How do I know this, as well as his name? Jayne Longnecker told me when I interviewed her back in Nov of 06 (so much for patient confidentiality. or student confidentiality, or whatever...)
Yup. He was clearly a danger to himself and he wanted to get help. He didn't. Instead, he was yelled at, berated, and browbeaten until he could no longer stand it and killed himself (according to multiple eye witness accounts). He should have gotten legitimate therapy, he should have felt accepted and loved. He didn't. Benchmark advertised to be able to help him and it was criminally irresponsible (IMO) for them to accept him in the condition he was already in. They told parents I have interviewed that they had qualified counselors on staff and 24 hour supervision (yeah, I got video tape) and all that jazz. They told my parents the same. They lied.
Psy,
I'm not a substitute for TheWho, or whatever you choose to call him. (God forbid, I'm very busy and have a family to support.) Consider me rather your average open-minded jury member.
First, you impress me as a sympathetic and articulate young man. I don't get the impression that you're an egotistical two-bit con artist playing the saint. On the contrary, I trust that your intentions are honorable and good.
Here's my gut feeling given the information in your post. If you had told me that George was the picture of mental fitness before going to Benchmark I would say, Hmmm, Benchmark might really be responsible for his suicide. But you candidly acknowledge that George was suicidal when he went to Benchmark. Now, as a jury member, I believe you've already lost your case. Given the bipolar disorder, the suicidal tendencies, and possibly even the suicide attempts, you would find it difficult to prove that Benchmark caused him to commit suicide.
If you weren't qualified at all (if you are, pretend you didn't get those degrees) and had no education in psychology, would you go out and advertise to be able to help kids with depression? Would you accept a kid who had been declared a danger to himself? Why or why not? Answer that question and you can see where i'm heading with this. The only real question in my mind is whether Jayne Longnecker truly believes she is helping people, or whether she is just in it for the money. I am leaning towards the latter since if she was sincere, I don't think she would need to lie to get parents to enroll their kids.
-
Seems what people are trying to say is that the cause of Georges death is unknown, he might have just received a letter from an ex-girlfriend or family member that effected him emotionally. We need to remember that he was suffering prior to Benchmark. If he was working at McDonalds just prior to taking his life I am sure the anti-fast food people would blame McDonalds for his death.
...
McDonalds doesn't advertise McDepressionTreatment.
-
They do offer a McFlurry. Which is exactly what a rap/propheet is -1 big ice cream headache
-DDF
-
Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.
You ridicule Hyde for its piss-poor academics; it would seem you like to come across as intellectually superior to everyone else here. You also like to ridicule survivors who take too long, in your estimation, to "get over it."
You actually tried to use my posting an article about the inherent pathology of Lifespring and its destructive use of psychology – as proof that Hyde could work, if it only got rid of Joe Gauld! Namely, you thought Lifespring was an example of something that was okay!
The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.
Bullshit. The Hyde forum fell into disarray when you started stalking me all over fornits, misquoting me in my wake as having posted lemonparty links, calling everyone you disagreed with "Ursus," misquoting me, libeling me, and turning a discussion about Sumner Hawley's sexual involvement with returning alums into a circus about child molestation and worse.
There are other people that follow the Hyde forum than exclusively former Hyde students, what exactly did you expect to happen? I vacated myself for awhile, thinking that perhaps my posts would simply add more fuel to an already blazing fire. But you kept it up. Had you any interest in genuine discussion re. Hyde matters, you would have returned once things calmed down, but it does not appear as though you have.
I find it humorous that you link Che Gookin, TheWho, and Botched Programming with one another, since these three have distinctly different posting styles. I find it especially ironic that you would single out TheWho as – of all posters on fornits – you are most like him in your manner of obfuscation. You attempt to discredit by exaggeration, derail by taking details out of context, and ridicule and discount anything that you can get away with. One might think you simply want to argue for argument's sake.
FAIR?? Lols, don't get on your high horse to me about fairness.
-
Mike & Ursus
I don't know either of you nor do I know anything about Hyde. It sounds like you have plenty in common. It would be encouraging to see you collaborate on that. By Ursus's description above it sounds like you both locked horns and stalemated eachother. Again, I don't know either of you and I'm not sure what my point is, but the thought of (mentioned above) of Mike stalking Ursus (whether it's true or not) seems pointless.
Isn't Fornits first and foremost a place for former students to vent? Isn't that the definition of a forum?
For those of you who can't respect the concept of free speech, for those of you who can't stand the idea of former student's gathering and exchanging dialouge you really ought to consider moving to North Korea. Or maybe fire up your time machine and head for one of the many fantastic places where free speech was punishable by death.You might not like what's said here but it ain't your sandbox. Go back to your sandbox and keep on not sharing your toys.
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Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.
You ridicule Hyde for its piss-poor academics; it would seem you like to come across as intellectually superior to everyone else here. You also like to ridicule survivors who take too long, in your estimation, to "get over it."
Everyone makes fun of Hyde's piss-poor academics, you more than anyone. And yes, I think your 40-year Hyde obsession is a laughable copout for a wasted life.
You actually tried to use my posting an article about the inherent pathology of Lifespring and its destructive use of psychology – as proof that Hyde could work, if it only got rid of Joe Gauld! Namely, you thought Lifespring was an example of something that was okay!
What in the fuck are you talking about? I don't even know what Lifespring is! Post it.
The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.
Bullshit. The Hyde forum fell into disarray when you started stalking me all over fornits, misquoting me in my wake as having posted lemonparty links, calling everyone you disagreed with "Ursus," misquoting me, libeling me, and turning a discussion about Sumner Hawley's sexual involvement with returning alums into a circus about child molestation and worse.
What in the fuck are you talking about? Post my stalking posts. I left the Hyde forum only once, to post, in the appropriate forum, a complaint about pornography. You posted after me. I started the SH child molester circus? Post it.
There are other people that follow the Hyde forum than exclusively former Hyde students, what exactly did you expect to happen? I vacated myself for awhile, thinking that perhaps my posts would simply add more fuel to an already blazing fire. But you kept it up. Had you any interest in genuine discussion re. Hyde matters, you would have returned once things calmed down, but it does not appear as though you have.
The Hyde forum was assigned a moderator after the blowup, who promptly deleted several of Che's posts. I don't trust it anymore.
I find it humorous that you link Che Gookin, TheWho, and Botched Programming with one another, since these three have distinctly different posting styles. I find it especially ironic that you would single out TheWho as – of all posters on fornits – you are most like him in your manner of obfuscation. You attempt to discredit by exaggeration, derail by taking details out of context, and ridicule and discount anything that you can get away with. One might think you simply want to argue for argument's sake.
As for the real identity of TheWho, reread the "Willfull Suspension of Disbelief" thread again. I'm like the Who? Demagogue.
FAIR?? Lols, don't get on your high horse to me about fairness.
Did I say something about fairness? I pity you, dude.
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Let's get back to the point here, namely:
Seems what people are trying to say is that the cause of Georges death is unknown, he might have just received a letter from an ex-girlfriend or family member that effected him emotionally. We need to remember that he was suffering prior to Benchmark. If he was working at McDonalds just prior to taking his life I am sure the anti-fast food people would blame McDonalds for his death.
McDonalds doesn't advertise McDepressionTreatment.
All of these places claim "cures" for all sorts of ills and misbehaviors, yet – at the very least – some of these ills are made worse. I'm saying it that way in an attempt to be broadminded, although I personally do not think anyone is helped by these places. I think it is mostly varying degrees of damage we are dealing with here.
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Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.
Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.
It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.
My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.
I am curious. Was the suicide advertised in the paper? Obituary announcing the cause of death, time and talk a little about the persons accomplishments?
What are you cruious about?
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double post
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Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.
Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.
It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.
My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.
I am curious. Was the suicide advertised in the paper? Obituary announcing the cause of death, time and talk a little about the persons accomplishments?
What are you curious about?
You should have continued reading. He was curious if the death was announced in the paper with the cause of death a little bit about the persons life and accomplishments.
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huh?
Also, it's not anarchy over here, truly.
look, for example, i went in "normal", was tortured, and came out suicdal. Therefore, someone who goes in suicidal has a strong liklihood of ending up dead. They're weaker fromt he start and easier to hurt. it's not complicated
That the standard program mix of brainwashing and abuse is bad and that kids have varying degrees of susceptibility to it are axioms to me too.
But to the best of my knowledge there are NO known or even rumored suicides discussed on the Hyde forum. (I'm counting on Ursus to find one or two counterexamples, though. :wink: )
Conclusion: The link between programs and suicide is negligible to nonexistent.
Your conclusion makes no logical sense from your supposition
Look bitch, my best friend went into program a happy outgoing girl was "ruined" by program, and promptly killed herself. I went from being "normal" to SERIOUSLY mentally ill. I had a personality split, "autism"- a constant trance like state that lasted almost two years, suicial obsession..and other issues i won't get into. STOP THE BULLSHIT. TORURE DESIGNED TO DESTROY THE BRAIN ACTUALLY SUCCEEDS IN DESTROYING THE BRAIN. Go away troll
And i doubt that beleif you have about Hyde.
Ursus, want to answer some questions? I don't really understand hyde anyway. It doesn't sound like a program, exactly.
Okay, Mike and Guest... The issue of suicide has been discussed but spottily on the Hyde forum, but it has been brought up. I think people are ashamed/embarrassed; it is a difficult subject to broach. It would appear as though one of the coping mechanisms for surviving the Hyde bullshit is to incorporate a certain amount of arrogance or braggadocio into one's persona. I think we've seen this again and again, even with otherwise very personable sorts. Perhaps this might help to make the incidence of suicide less? I don't know...
To my knowledge, there was only one case of an actual death at Hyde, and this was during the 1987-88 school year. The causal factor was attributed to an enlarged heart. Incidentally, this was also the cause attributed to the kid who died after being in the Ring at Elan.
I think the "danger period" for suicide is actually in the ten or so years after you get out, when what you've been indoctrinated in for the past several years meets the "real world," and the juxtaposition of the two do not comport. I think program puts you in the frame of mind to judge things as absolutes, much like AA does regarding one's drinking or falling off the wagon. Joe Gauld used to say that if you can't make it at Hyde, then you can't make it anywhere. The corollary being, of course, that if you fail at Hyde, you've failed at life.
As to actual bonafide cases, NC's death was rumored to have at the least a very great assist from suicidal intentions. I don't think she was in great shape when she came to Hyde; circumstances prior to her enrollment would have suggested some serious and nurturing therapy, and that is certainly not what she got at Hyde. You know that she had tried before she even got to Hyde, Mike? SF also tried a few years post-Hyde; that was definitely tied into what happened to her there. There are a couple of other kids who went through some serious rough spots, but those kids are either dead due to "other causes" or I've lost track of them. I've lost track of most of them so the fact that I can even bring up some says something. And then there is myself, of course.
It is at this point, Mike, that you usually do your typical about-face and try to skewer me for my words, and you might as well go right ahead; have at it, buddy. I don't give a shit. I think the mere fact that you are trying to poke holes in Benchmark's culpability in George's death just about says it all, as per where you are coming from.
I've read a few posts of other Hyde kids that intimated consideration of this route, but I don't actually know those people well enough to vouch for that. Again, it is really hard to track cases, 'cuz people that don't do well there tend to disappear. And I don't think this kind of stuff usually shows up immediately after you get out. For a while, you're running around like a chicken with your head cut off, trying to "prove them wrong." Then... reality, and fatality, sets in.
As to Guest's question about Hyde being a program or not, I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that it most definitely is. It fucks with your mind and sucks out any capacity to critically assess the relative value of your life's experiences. Perhaps not everyone that went to Hyde feels that way, but I found it to be a very crippling influence on my life. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have lived my life differently, and more fully, had I not gone to Hyde. And that is about the most pathetic understatement I can come up with today.
Take it from Vanda M, "recent" Hyde graduate, Landmark Forum devotee, and currently enthralled with Ramtha's School of Enlightenment: "I've been involved in cults all my life, ha ha!" (spoken in a 2006 radio interview vis a vis Hyde, and her going back for her diploma nigh 30 years after her last attendance there).
No, no. I wouldn't say hyde isn't a program. I just don't know much about it.
The idea that no one has committed suicide unless the topic it has been mentioned on fornits is too nonsensical to give further consideration.
I put the number of program related deaths in the 10s of thousands. A full one third of survivors take their own lives or die in someway directly related to the mental damage caused by their "treatment". The proportion of death will increase in relation to how abusive the program is, psychologically. The Cedus, Desistos, Elans, etc on top. I think the more intensively peers are used to abuse peers and therefore the more "confusing", the more "culty" as opposed to merely "cruel" the worse the long tems effects are going to be.
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1. Kept reading what? His question was the last sentence of his post.
2. He qouted my statement and put "lost 3 family members to suicide" in bold.
Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.
Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.
It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.
My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.
I am curious. Was the suicide advertised in the paper? Obituary announcing the cause of death, time and talk a little about the persons accomplishments?
What are you curious about?
You should have continued reading. He was curious if the death was announced in the paper with the cause of death a little bit about the persons life and accomplishments.
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Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.
You ridicule Hyde for its piss-poor academics; it would seem you like to come across as intellectually superior to everyone else here. You also like to ridicule survivors who take too long, in your estimation, to "get over it."
Everyone makes fun of Hyde's piss-poor academics, you more than anyone. And yes, I think your 40-year Hyde obsession is a laughable copout for a wasted life.
You actually tried to use my posting an article about the inherent pathology of Lifespring and its destructive use of psychology – as proof that Hyde could work, if it only got rid of Joe Gauld! Namely, you thought Lifespring was an example of something that was okay!
What in the fuck are you talking about? I don't even know what Lifespring is! Post it.
The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.
Bullshit. The Hyde forum fell into disarray when you started stalking me all over fornits, misquoting me in my wake as having posted lemonparty links, calling everyone you disagreed with "Ursus," misquoting me, libeling me, and turning a discussion about Sumner Hawley's sexual involvement with returning alums into a circus about child molestation and worse.
What in the fuck are you talking about? Post my stalking posts. I left the Hyde forum only once, to post, in the appropriate forum, a complaint about pornography. You posted after me. I started the SH child molester circus? Post it.
There are other people that follow the Hyde forum than exclusively former Hyde students, what exactly did you expect to happen? I vacated myself for awhile, thinking that perhaps my posts would simply add more fuel to an already blazing fire. But you kept it up. Had you any interest in genuine discussion re. Hyde matters, you would have returned once things calmed down, but it does not appear as though you have.
The Hyde forum was assigned a moderator after the blowup, who promptly deleted several of Che's posts. I don't trust it anymore.
I find it humorous that you link Che Gookin, TheWho, and Botched Programming with one another, since these three have distinctly different posting styles. I find it especially ironic that you would single out TheWho as – of all posters on fornits – you are most like him in your manner of obfuscation. You attempt to discredit by exaggeration, derail by taking details out of context, and ridicule and discount anything that you can get away with. One might think you simply want to argue for argument's sake.
As for the real identity of TheWho, reread the "Willfull Suspension of Disbelief" thread again. I'm like the Who? Demagogue.
FAIR?? Lols, don't get on your high horse to me about fairness.
Did I say something about fairness? I pity you, dude.
Jesus Christ! I see you're putting your Hyde character assination skills to good use. That's what group was like, i bet. Your nastiness to someone who is quite polite to you, despite your weird trolling, is evidence of how screwy YOU are. Whether by Hyde or some character defect.
Ursus post NC's full name. There's shame in death. Is the death related to hyde?
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Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.
You ridicule Hyde for its piss-poor academics; it would seem you like to come across as intellectually superior to everyone else here. You also like to ridicule survivors who take too long, in your estimation, to "get over it."
Everyone makes fun of Hyde's piss-poor academics, you more than anyone. And yes, I think your 40-year Hyde obsession is a laughable copout for a wasted life.
You actually tried to use my posting an article about the inherent pathology of Lifespring and its destructive use of psychology – as proof that Hyde could work, if it only got rid of Joe Gauld! Namely, you thought Lifespring was an example of something that was okay!
What in the fuck are you talking about? I don't even know what Lifespring is! Post it.
The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.
Bullshit. The Hyde forum fell into disarray when you started stalking me all over fornits, misquoting me in my wake as having posted lemonparty links, calling everyone you disagreed with "Ursus," misquoting me, libeling me, and turning a discussion about Sumner Hawley's sexual involvement with returning alums into a circus about child molestation and worse.
What in the fuck are you talking about? Post my stalking posts. I left the Hyde forum only once, to post, in the appropriate forum, a complaint about pornography. You posted after me. I started the SH child molester circus? Post it.
There are other people that follow the Hyde forum than exclusively former Hyde students, what exactly did you expect to happen? I vacated myself for awhile, thinking that perhaps my posts would simply add more fuel to an already blazing fire. But you kept it up. Had you any interest in genuine discussion re. Hyde matters, you would have returned once things calmed down, but it does not appear as though you have.
The Hyde forum was assigned a moderator after the blowup, who promptly deleted several of Che's posts. I don't trust it anymore.
I find it humorous that you link Che Gookin, TheWho, and Botched Programming with one another, since these three have distinctly different posting styles. I find it especially ironic that you would single out TheWho as – of all posters on fornits – you are most like him in your manner of obfuscation. You attempt to discredit by exaggeration, derail by taking details out of context, and ridicule and discount anything that you can get away with. One might think you simply want to argue for argument's sake.
As for the real identity of TheWho, reread the "Willfull Suspension of Disbelief" thread again. I'm like the Who? Demagogue.
FAIR?? Lols, don't get on your high horse to me about fairness.
Did I say something about fairness? I pity you, dude.
Jesus Christ! I see you're putting your Hyde character assination skills to good use. That's what group was like, i bet. Your nastiness to someone who is quite polite to you, despite your weird trolling, is evidence of how screwy YOU are. Whether by Hyde or some character defect.
Ursus post NC's full name. There's shame in death. Is the death related to hyde?
Oops. That's supposed to be "no" shame in death
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1. Kept reading what? His question was the last sentence of his post.
2. He qouted my statement and put "lost 3 family members to suicide" in bold.
Shotgun therapy (aka one size fits all, 1 shot, shock and awe intimidation/humiliation) is detrimental.
Having untrained staff yell at a group of 20 teenagers for 12 hours a week for 2 years ain't therapy.
It's eventually going to confuse a confused kid even more. TBS eblast therapy is a developmental detour. That poor kid needed to be in a legitimate program.
My heart goes out to his family and friends. I've lost 3 family members to suicide.
I am curious. Was the suicide advertised in the paper? Obituary announcing the cause of death, time and talk a little about the persons accomplishments?
What are you curious about?
You should have continued reading. He was curious if the death was announced in the paper with the cause of death a little bit about the persons life and accomplishments.
When your family members took their own lives was it placed in the papers? Was the cause of death stated and was there a little something about their accomplishments in life?
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I don't know you.
You think I'm going to share these personal details in a public forum?
Death and greif are a peronsal matter.
Wait, correction, unless you're a teenager who doesn't know any better or have the experience to know proper protocol you can bugger off. If you are a teenager that doesn't know any better (I've been there) or a genuine person who happened to misphrase the question ask yourself the following:
Would you share that information if you were in my shoes?
1. What interest do you have in whether or not my family members suicide was placed in the papers?
2. What interest do you have in whether or not my family members cause of death (suicide) was made public information?
3. What interest do you have in whether or not the local paper had a little piece about my family members accomplishmens in their life? Have you ever read a local or metropolitian newspaper? It sounds like you haven't. No one ever places an obit and makes reference to suicide.
I'm trying to be fair but you're really pushing it.
You want details ?
Pony up and put some skin in the game.
And if you are genuine, welcome aboard. PM me and we'll talk.
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Seems what people are trying to say is that the cause of Georges death is unknown, he might have just received a letter from an ex-girlfriend or family member that effected him emotionally. We need to remember that he was suffering prior to Benchmark. If he was working at McDonalds just prior to taking his life I am sure the anti-fast food people would blame McDonalds for his death. ...
With each post it just becomes more and more obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. Are you fucking kidding me with this? Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
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No, no. I wouldn't say hyde isn't a program. I just don't know much about it.
The idea that no one has committed suicide unless the topic it has been mentioned on fornits is too nonsensical to give further consideration.
I put the number of program related deaths in the 10s of thousands. A full one third of survivors take their own lives or die in someway directly related to the mental damage caused by their "treatment". The proportion of death will increase in relation to how abusive the program is, psychologically. The Cedus, Desistos, Elans, etc on top. I think the more intensively peers are used to abuse peers and therefore the more "confusing", the more "culty" as opposed to merely "cruel" the worse the long tems effects are going to be.
Interesting way to describe it. I agree with you. I think the more they are able to worm into your mind, the longer it takes to get them out. Oft times it seems those are programs that masquerade as being "semi-normal with a twist" these days. Not entirely of course, but that insidious warping is much harder to recognize and hence, remove and recover from.
Of course, controlling the milieu, by having the kids in an environment engineered to produce conformity, if not complete submission, is how they get away with so much. It doesn't always matter whether there are walls or not.
Some of it is also relative to the cultural awareness of the time. If a nun were to smack a kid on the knuckles these days, the accompanying sermon would carry a great deal less weight than it used to, simply because the smack would be recognized as being blatantly abusive. But back in the day, that was less recognized.
And I think it also depends on the kid. We all have our own fragilities, in some areas more than others.
A full one third of survivors take their own lives or die in someway directly related to the mental damage caused by their "treatment".
Yeah, let's not forget about self-destructive lifestyles that end up in death. Some of those "lifestyles" are directly the result of program.
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Shit, I actually have some sympathy for these people. I just lost my best beloved dog. She got clipped on the road, probably running deer late one night. On the one hand, I was the one to let her out and I didn't miss her and go looking for her when I shut down the house. If I had just noticed and called her she would have come. She was that good a dog. It was my fault and I'll never forget it and I don't take offence at all when neighbours tell the story as a cautionary tale to other dog owners.
But she rarely wandered off in her 5 years, never in the most recent ones. So why should I think to check and see if she had that night? These are mollifying truths, but still I know I didn't miss her, wasn't paying attention and that's why she's gone from me.
I'm so so sorry to hear about your baby, I was there in 2001. Different scenario but I still hold myself responsible. I could tell she wasn't feeling well and just figured it would pass, covered her up with a blanket, gave her a kiss and went to the bar. The next day she was in quarantine at Helen Woodward's animal hospital and her kidneys and liver failed and she was gone within a week. They never could tell me what killed her, but it was some kind of toxin, and I hate that she was in that much pain and I hate that maybe I could have spared it.
Anyway, I don't want to go on and on, but I understand. And not having any children yet, my animals ARE my babies. My heart goes out to you.
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Radio Fornits.
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........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job.
...
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........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death.
There is such a thing as criminal negligence. Whether that particular legal term applies to this case is irrelavant in my mind. It's the concept i'm interested in. In my opinion, the parents would have a cakewalk if they decided to sue for wrongful death. Benchmark, both in my personal experience and with people i've interviewed, misrepresents itself to get poeple in.
They'll say anything for enrollment, essentially, even throwing caution to the wind when they know they can't handle them. Or maybe they don't know and truly believe that their Synanon, LifeSpring, and est derived "therapy (whoops we can't call it that)" truly works. The only difference is the le When I interviewed Jayne and asked her about psychologists she stated that they tended to be "in their heads" (as opposed to from the "heart"/"gut"). I was called in my head a lot since I am intelligent and was taught to use my head as well as my heart. What "in your head" (very negative connotation) means is to let go of rational thought and let emotion overwhelm you (a process that is aided by the LGAT exercises and the overall milieu (http://http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/milieu)
"In your head" is a phrase you can quote directly out of "cults in our midst" (page 177 of the first edition, near the bottom). It's quite common in programs. I've heard it used in straight, AARC, and Benchmark among other places. The common denominator would seem to be synanon but with all the staff cross-pollination of program DNA it's hard to know where the phrase originated (could be scientology, which est "borrowed" heavily from). No. I'm not crazy. Google "you're in your head"
(copy this into address bar: "http://www.google.com/search?q=%22you're+in+your+head%22" )
and look what you find. When it's used in this context (as a synonym for "too much thinking"), it's a good bet you'll find a cult.
Examples from just the first page of google:
New age:
http://www.spiritsite.com/writing/echbod/part13.shtml (http://www.spiritsite.com/writing/echbod/part13.shtml)
More new age, including "The Secret":
http://www.actingintuitive.com/articles/AM.8.07.htm (http://www.actingintuitive.com/articles/AM.8.07.htm)
Article quoted from Jeff colbs by a person believing in the "Law of Attraction" from "The Secret":
http://swimpupstream.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ction.html (http://swimpupstream.blogspot.com/2007/04/rowing-in-same-direction.html)
above is an article written by Jeff Combs which, when googled leads to this LGAT trash:
http://goldenmastermind.com/gms_home.asp?bhcp=1 (http://goldenmastermind.com/gms_home.asp?bhcp=1)
Another self help article here:
http://www.womanlinks.com/index.php?opt ... 6&Itemid=0 (http://www.womanlinks.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=506&Itemid=0)
leading to a pay service for counseling
And it goes on and on and on. Cults load language. It's like Newsspeak.
What do all these things have in common. They all offer great reward, sucess in life, careers, etc... if you just turn off your thinking. Desperate people do desperate things, and you'd be hard pressed to find a more desperate population to prey on than terrified parents with troubled kids.
The point of all this is that Jayne longnecker, becuase of her cult derived believes sincerely believes that her approach is better than psychology and the only way to save the kids (or, she knows it's a total failure but makes a lot of money). It's not a question of whether she is a fool or a knave, but rather whether she is fooled or a knave.
We don’t know what triggered it…
According to multiple students who were there at the time the primary cause was Joelle Walter's harsh treatment of George just prior to his suicide. Yes. You're right. There's no way to definitively prove exactly what made the kid decide to kill himself, but people who knew him...
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"In your head" was used during my time at Hyde as well, and that pre-dates Straight, but not Synanon. My guess is that it may have originally come out of AA.
Hyde "practices" psychology with no psychologists on staff. In fact, Gauld hated psychologists. I think he took particular pleasure in skewering the small handful of parents who were psychologists or psychiatrists during family meetings. Those families' time at Hyde often did not end well, unless they were of the ilk who thought LGATs were comprised of emotional growth material.
I like the term "criminal negligence" and I find it utterly appropriate. In fact, I think it puts Benchmark's treatment of George in an even worse light than one in which they merely "didn't help enough" or "didn't know." They knew, and they as much as pushed him over the edge.
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a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them? They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
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I don't know you.
You think I'm going to share these personal details in a public forum?
Death and greif are a peronsal matter.
Wait, correction, unless you're a teenager who doesn't know any better or have the experience to know proper protocol you can bugger off. If you are a teenager that doesn't know any better (I've been there) or a genuine person who happened to misphrase the question ask yourself the following:
Would you share that information if you were in my shoes?
1. What interest do you have in whether or not my family members suicide was placed in the papers?
2. What interest do you have in whether or not my family members cause of death (suicide) was made public information?
3. What interest do you have in whether or not the local paper had a little piece about my family members accomplishmens in their life? Have you ever read a local or metropolitian newspaper? It sounds like you haven't. No one ever places an obit and makes reference to suicide.
I'm trying to be fair but you're really pushing it.
You want details ?
Pony up and put some skin in the game.
And if you are genuine, welcome aboard. PM me and we'll talk.
I had an extended family member and a member of a family that is close to me take their own lives. I can remember that they both opted not to place an obituary write up in the paper saying that they committed suicide or that they had died. I dont think anyone is looking for any details,like names and numbers, just whether it was in the paper or not and whether it was handled differently, DDF.
I have seen people die in automobile accidents and they are talked about in the paper (Obits), with a little about thier life and how they liked math or science and were good at sports etc....but you typically dont see this with suicides (adults or children).... since you experienced this 3 times you may have noticed this also.
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Psy, you are much more tied into Benchmark and the background on “Georgeâ€
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"In your head" was used during my time at Hyde as well, and that pre-dates Straight, but not Synanon. My guess is that it may have originally come out of AA.
Hyde "practices" psychology with no psychologists on staff. In fact, Gauld hated psychologists. I think he took particular pleasure in skewering the small handful of parents who were psychologists or psychiatrists during family meetings. Those families' time at Hyde often did not end well, unless they were of the ilk who thought LGATs were comprised of emotional growth material.
Like Anne S. Hall. (Ottowa5)
I like the term "criminal negligence" and I find it utterly appropriate. In fact, I think it puts Benchmark's treatment of George in an even worse light than one in which they merely "didn't help enough" or "didn't know." They knew, and they as much as pushed him over the edge.
Well. There is the possibility that the vast majority of them don't know and just have a really fucked up concept (they learn) of how to go about "helping" people. My only question is whether the bunch on top are true believers. I'm pretty sure the low-on-totem-pole staff are just cult members like any other. Afaik, none of them have any background in psychology and hence, no concept of what therapy is. All the easier to convince them that the Benchmark way is best way. By the time they figure it out... well... Benchmark has an extremely high staff turnover rate.
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a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?
If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.
They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
Well. Here's the issue. Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what. Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful. What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past. I can understand that. It's really their choice. That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that. According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.
That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget. I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck". But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth. Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).
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Psy, you are much more tied into Benchmark and the background on “Georgeâ€
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I like the term "criminal negligence" and I find it utterly appropriate. In fact, I think it puts Benchmark's treatment of George in an even worse light than one in which they merely "didn't help enough" or "didn't know." They knew, and they as much as pushed him over the edge.
Well. There is the possibility that the vast majority of them don't know and just have a really fucked up concept (they learn) of how to go about "helping" people. My only question is whether the bunch on top are true believers. I'm pretty sure the low-on-totem-pole staff are just cult members like any other. Afaik, none of them have any background in psychology and hence, no concept of what therapy is. All the easier to convince them that the Benchmark way is best way. By the time they figure it out... well... Benchmark has an extremely high staff turnover rate.
Hmmm. Guess I wasn't really thinking about individuals on staff. I was thinking more along the lines of the culpability of the institution as a whole. There is an important difference. Of course, there are individuals within an institution like this who may have had additional culpability in a situation like this, but it is primarily the institution who should be held accountable. George's parents did not contract out his care to particular individuals at Benchmark, they signed a contract with Benchmark.
It is when particular individuals go beyond the pale that they get tacked onto a case like this as additional parties. But the primary responsible party would still be Benchmark.
It is Benchmark's responsibility to keep the excesses of their staff in check. It is Benchmark's responsibility to properly screen their clientele so that these kinds of fatalities do not occur.
Here are the facts: George was already suicidal. He was clinically diagnosed as bipolar...
Yup. He was clearly a danger to himself and he wanted to get help. He didn't. Instead, he was yelled at, berated, and browbeaten until he could no longer stand it and killed himself (according to multiple eye witness accounts). He should have gotten legitimate therapy, he should have felt accepted and loved. He didn't. Benchmark advertised to be able to help him and it was criminally irresponsible (IMO) for them to accept him in the condition he was already in.
Your quote above is why I said , "They knew, and they as much as pushed him over the edge."
As a bit of an aside, why do you think people have to sign a waiver stating that they don't have any psychological problems prior to taking the Landmark Forum? Too many lawsuits stemming from people having their craniums reamed by the excesses of est, and the consequences thereof? Mmm?
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It's not benchmarks responsibility to be responsible.
Their job is to:
collect checks
Hire derelicts.
dodge bullets when real people call bullshit.
Be thankful you're not a Benchmark employee.
How could you sleep at night?
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Have you ever read a local or metropolitian newspaper? It sounds like you haven't. No one ever places an obit and makes reference to suicide.
I missed this on my first read. This is what I have experienced also, DDF. If a family member loses a child to suicide there is typically no mention of it in the news papers. Families treat it a little different, as did the families I knew. The only reason I brought this up is because there are some people who didn’t understand why the programs did not go public with the details of a child’s death if it was one in which they took their own life. Many here accused the schools of being too secretive about children’s deaths (others accused the schools of covering it up) when it is actually the parents of the child who don’t want the story published in the paper (in many cases), so the school respects their wishes.
When my daughter was attending ASR there was a recent graduate who took his own life and the school asked permission to make their letter public (The letter the boys parents wrote to ASR). The parents asked for discretion but stated that the letter could be read within the school to students and faculty/parents. I was present when the letter to the other students was read to them.
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Welcome to the Revolution.
The revolution will not be televised.
KFNT
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a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?
If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.
They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
Well. Here's the issue. Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what. Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful. What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past. I can understand that. It's really their choice. That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that. According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.
That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget. I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck". But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth. Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).
Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,) It should give details about how benchmark is run. People can draw their own conclusion, which will be obvious.
A memorial's aim is only secondarily to "help others". The Vietnam Memorial is to honour the individuals who had their lives stolen capriciously, callously, and cruelly, not make some political point, however valid. Any memorial for a survivor should work under the same principle.
THEY are the ones who are important.THIER loss is the anguish. THEY are the ones who are primarily being "helped", in the form of gaining some kind of justice, understanding, and love
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a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?
If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.
They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
Well. Here's the issue. Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what. Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful. What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past. I can understand that. It's really their choice. That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that. According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.
That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget. I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck". But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth. Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).
Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,) It should give details about how benchmark is run. People can draw their own conclusion, which will be obvious.
A memorial's aim is only secondarily to "help others". The Vietnam Memorial is to honour the individuals who had their lives stolen capriciously, callously, and cruelly, not make some political point
Imo, that IS making a political point. Valid or not (i agree with you, btw) some people choose to believe different things, or have different perceptions. The idea that so many died for nothing offends some. A memorial should not, IMO speak for the dead when they might not approve of the message. Although I am 99.9% sure George would approve of a "benchmark killed me" style memorial, I still wouldn't feel comfortable putting words in his mouth... It leaves a bad taste in mine. It's fine for me to say "benchmark killed him" but the place where he died, Imo should be devoid of any politics, no matter how much i'm sure he would have approved. I just don't feel right about it is all, and maybe it's just me.
The fact of the matter is that I'm not impartial. I don't think anybody would claim me to be. I've seen enough evidence and long since concluded as to what needs to be done. I am not the right person to put a memorial there, nor is Benchmark, or anybody on Fornits. If anybody decides what would go on such a plaque, it should be his friends, those who knew him, and even his parents. There is a time and place for politics and perspectives, but it's not on a tombstone. He will be remembered, and I will point him out as an example of what can potentially happen, but not there, at least not by my hand.
This is why I said: name, date birth, date of death, and maybe a few statements from friends and family, perhaps that's one of the few things both Benchmark and Fornits can both agree on. One brief moment of peace to honor the dead together. Believe it or not, some counselors at Benchmark do care about the kids, they just have a fucked up and potentially very dangerous way they've been taught to show it (and that is why they call it "tough love").
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a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?
If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.
They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
Well. Here's the issue. Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what. Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful. What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past. I can understand that. It's really their choice. That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that. According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.
That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget. I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck". But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth. Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).
Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,) It should give details about how benchmark is run. People can draw their own conclusion, which will be obvious.
A memorial's aim is only secondarily to "help others". The Vietnam Memorial is to honour the individuals who had their lives stolen capriciously, callously, and cruelly, not make some political point
Imo, that IS making a political point. Valid or not (i agree with you, btw) some people choose to believe different things, or have different perceptions. The idea that so many died for nothing offends some. A memorial should not, IMO speak for the dead when they might not approve of the message. Although I am 99.9% sure George would approve of a "benchmark killed me" style memorial, I still wouldn't feel comfortable putting words in his mouth... It leaves a bad taste in mine. It's fine for me to say "benchmark killed him" but the place where he died, Imo should be devoid of any politics, no matter how much i'm sure he would have approved. I just don't feel right about it is all, and maybe it's just me.
The fact of the matter is that I'm not impartial. I don't think anybody would claim me to be. I've seen enough evidence and long since concluded as to what needs to be done. I am not the right person to put a memorial there, nor is Benchmark, or anybody on Fornits. If anybody decides what would go on such a plaque, it should be his friends, those who knew him, and even his parents. There is a time and place for politics and perspectives, but it's not on a tombstone. He will be remembered, and I will point him out as an example of what can potentially happen, but not there, at least not by my hand.
This is why I said: name, date birth, date of death, and maybe a few statements from friends and family, perhaps that's one of the few things both Benchmark and Fornits can both agree on. One brief moment of peace to honor the dead together. Believe it or not, some counselors at Benchmark do care about the kids, they just have a fucked up and potentially very dangerous way they've been taught to show it (and that is why they call it "tough love").
no, it's not political to say how benchmark is run, or even that he was murdered. Saying that he was murdered would be taking a stance, though. So don't say that Put accurate info out there: your testimony of how you were treated , Other young adults' testimony, along with the lack of credentials, and ties to the abusive cult cedu isn't taking a stance, it's presenting accurate info. Let people draw their own conclusions.
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Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,)
I sort of disagree. If anybody murdered George it was Mel Wasserman / C.E.D. reaching out from the grave.
Something I read in Cults In Our Midst made me think... Cults are organized like an upside-down T. You have the leader on top and all the followers on the bottom. Only one ultimately has power and makes the decisions. The rest, more or less, simply wait for instructions from the higher-ups. So if they're trying to help how culpable are they really? (and I'm not saying all are, some get drunk with power, some are just naturally sadistic fucks) IMO, the leader should be shot, hung, staked, drawn, quartered, run over by a buick, encased in lead, and sent hurtling into the sun(metaphorically of course :wink: )... They deserve no mercy at all, but what if the leader is dead? What happens then?
What if the Leader's immortality is not part of the religion (and even then, it's not saying it would stop true believers... look at scientology)? What if the Leader himself is not seen as sacred, but the idea he stood for, his sacred science (the ideology, dogma, practices, language, etc). A religion is born, the worship of an idea. What stops cult members form continuing to practice what they were taught, teach it to others, and "spread the gospel". It's a bit of a monster running around with it's head chopped off.
What if the current person on top (that would be Jayne) truly believes what she is doing is the right thing, that it's the only way that is possible to save kids who are destined to die? What if she isn't the typical sociopathic cult leader, but a wayward follower spreading her gospel, trying to save the lives of others. Does she believe the way she does becuase she needs to justify what she does (a-la willful suspension of disbelief)? Hypothetically, could she ever snap out of it meaning it would entail accepting responsibility for such harm?
I once saw Joelle, Jaynes daugher, crying in Deborah's office speaking about how the program really was "not working". She had stood in between two students who were in love and couldn't really be kept apart. They AWOLed. She was devastated. I overheard, and of course, interrupted, suggesting that maybe since what she was trying "wasn't working" maybe she should change the program (and I suggested several things). This was a woman who was very upset. Somewhere in there was a heart.
Love has nothing to do with control and everything to do with letting go. A program should not be controlling, for example, the sexual lives of it's "students", judging if they are sexually enlightened, ready to date, or forbidding the choice of partner. For chrissakes, you have to write a proposal to have sex at Benchmark. Life is about learning and experiencing these things on your own. It's pretty safe to say with all the horny teenagers in Benchmark the primary cause of AWOLs (at least when I was there) does tend to be un-approved relationships (a-la elopement).
I tried to explain to Joelle that she was fighting a losing battle over the control over her "students" genitals, but she seemed to truly believe that leaving the students to their own devices would somehow result in contamination (since "two sickies(addicts to whatever)" don't make a "wellie" and since "sickies" end up dead-insane-injail 97% of the time, the multiplied probabilities almost guarantees failure.) It all comes out of AA dogma and has no basis in science, but to Joelle, it was the truth.
Who, then, do you hold responsible? What if the reason she deceives the outside world is because she feels it is necessary to accomplish a greater good (ends justify means thinking). What if i'm dealing with a rogue cult who'se leader has long since died and the followers never figured out they were getting conned. The dogma (originally designed for one purpose: making money) lives on and continues to do damage.
I'm not saying this is the way it is. It is very possible, even likely that the higher-ups at benchmark know full well that the program is designed for the sole purpose of making money, justifying it as a "working" system. Jayne preaches lifespring/est, so does Joelle... A religion that requires the virtual abolition of the conscience to the point where there is only what works and what doesn't.
It would be at this point of full realization that I would assume a cult member could be fully informed about the inner workings of a cult and still respect it as valid, a working system - becoming a member of the inner circle.
I am not looking for revenge. I just want this to stop. Ignorant or intentional, the harm inflicted needs to stop. So what happens if the program shuts down. What if the staff simply migrate as they usually do. What if cutting off one head is simply producing more and more. There are three solutions to stop growth, as I see it: jail em all, kill em all, or convince the staff that what they are doing is harmful and wrong. The first two aren't... er.. "working systems". If the latter is the only hope to stop growth of the industry, how does one possibly reach them? If Margaret Singer is right, presenting enough information should do it. What if we could somehow exit-counsel staff while still in program? What if instead of a fist, we simply offer information... What if even one was reached. What would happen, I wonder.
Anyway. sorry for the sleep-deprived rant. I really should get back to replying to several hundred emails, packing, editing many hours of DV footage, restoring SueScheffTruth by Christmas day as a present for Sue (can't forget here now)... etc...
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a kid with a shithouse job can just walk away. A kid in a program just cant. I don't know about this idea of publically memorializing him without talking to family. Why not try and talk to them?
If I had a last name, I might try, but I'm pretty sure the program isn't going to give it to me.
They may be up for it. Or they may have legit objections. You dont know without trying to find out. However horrible and senseless this death is, these ppl have lost their child. They are going through the worst thing that can happen to a family.
Well. Here's the issue. Right now, the parents still most likely believe that their child was destined to commit suicide no matter what. Broaching the topic, asking the question of "what if" may just be too painful. What if they're far enough in the grieving process to not want to re-examine the past. I can understand that. It's really their choice. That being said, nobody owns George, not the parents, not Benchmark, nobody, and if bring the events surrounding his death to light can prevent further occurrences from happening, I don't think he'd really mind that. According to those I've talked to, he wasn't exactly a fan of program at the time he killed himself, anyway.
That being said, any memorial should be done in a tasteful manner, celebrating how he lived and who he was, not how he died, and not the last year or so of his life which, if I were him, would probably rather forget. I mean.... I wouldn't really want Benchmark on my memorial unless it was prefixed with "fuck". But that's just me, and I don't think anybody should put words in his mouth. Memorials should be about paying respects, not grinding an axe (there are other times and places for that).
Well, it should both celebrate his life, and give details about his murder (yes, murder,) It should give details about how benchmark is run. People can draw their own conclusion, which will be obvious.
A memorial's aim is only secondarily to "help others". The Vietnam Memorial is to honour the individuals who had their lives stolen capriciously, callously, and cruelly, not make some political point
Imo, that IS making a political point. Valid or not (i agree with you, btw) some people choose to believe different things, or have different perceptions. The idea that so many died for nothing offends some. A memorial should not, IMO speak for the dead when they might not approve of the message. Although I am 99.9% sure George would approve of a "benchmark killed me" style memorial, I still wouldn't feel comfortable putting words in his mouth... It leaves a bad taste in mine. It's fine for me to say "benchmark killed him" but the place where he died, Imo should be devoid of any politics, no matter how much i'm sure he would have approved. I just don't feel right about it is all, and maybe it's just me.
The fact of the matter is that I'm not impartial. I don't think anybody would claim me to be. I've seen enough evidence and long since concluded as to what needs to be done. I am not the right person to put a memorial there, nor is Benchmark, or anybody on Fornits. If anybody decides what would go on such a plaque, it should be his friends, those who knew him, and even his parents. There is a time and place for politics and perspectives, but it's not on a tombstone. He will be remembered, and I will point him out as an example of what can potentially happen, but not there, at least not by my hand.
This is why I said: name, date birth, date of death, and maybe a few statements from friends and family, perhaps that's one of the few things both Benchmark and Fornits can both agree on. One brief moment of peace to honor the dead together. Believe it or not, some counselors at Benchmark do care about the kids, they just have a fucked up and potentially very dangerous way they've been taught to show it (and that is why they call it "tough love").
no, it's not political to say how benchmark is run, or even that he was murdered. Saying that he was murdered would be taking a stance, though. So don't say that Put accurate info out there: your testimony of how you were treated , Other young adults' testimony, along with the lack of credentials, and ties to the abusive cult cedu isn't taking a stance, it's presenting accurate info. Let people draw their own conclusions.
I'm not sure if "murder" is quite the right word. IMO, perhaps "negligent homicide" would be more precise. Jayne, if she is a sociopathic cult leader after nothing but cash in her "working system" had nothing to do with George's death. The buck does stop at Jayne for pretty much the tinyest decision, but she is rarely ever actually at Benchmark and (at least when I was there) had practically no interaction at all with the students themselves. It was her underlings, practicing their "tough love" that they truly believe in, who, in my opinion, most directly contributed to George's death. It's sort of like somebody who believes they can perform a tracheotomy without experience, unwittingly kill the person (and don't stop there... just because it didn't work that once doesn't mean it wont' in the future... choking people are going to die anyway (screw waiting for the ambulance with qualified and trained personnel))
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Culpability is heaviest at the top; it doesn't matter whether Jayne was rarely there, she was responsible for how things were run. If they weren't run right, it is her head that is more on the block and rightfully so. Otherwise, you are using the same argument that Mel Sembler used in washing his hands from what happened inside the Straight facilities. He claimed no personal interaction too.
Gee, I might as well start a company that sells kids toys painted with uranium. When they come to take me away, I'll blame it on the salesmen. After all, I had no personal interaction with the stuff.
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Culpability is heaviest at the top; it doesn't matter whether Jayne was rarely there, she was responsible for how things were run. If they weren't run right, it is her head that is more on the block and rightfully so. Otherwise, you are using the same argument that Mel Sembler used in washing his hands from what happened inside the Straight facilities. He claimed no personal interaction too.
Gee, I might as well start a company that sells kids toys painted with uranium. When they come to take me away, I'll blame it on the salesmen. After all, I had no personal interaction with the stuff.
Well. What if some cult leader had convinced you that Uranium was good for you? Yellowcake anyone?
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Well. What if some cult leader had convinced you that Uranium was good for you? Yellowcake anyone?
Who cares what some cult leader convinced Jayne to do? The buck has to stop somewhere. Jayne is running a business. It doesn't really matter if she has snow or cheese between her ears, she still has certain responsibilities inherent to running a business. Period.
If she were giving out the Benchmark wisdom by handing it out to people on a street corner for free, then you can wax poetic about whether she was snowed or is snowing. Realistically, as everyone here knows, it is more than a little of both.
Do note that there is a difference between personal culpability and professional culpability.
If a staff member's actions were outside the company norm, then that individual could be held to task, on an individual basis, for destructive actions towards George. From what I've read, those actions were within Benchmark's standard modus operandi. They were, in fact, SOP. Correct me if I am wrong here, please.
Even in such a case, i.e., with regards to an out-of-line staff person, Benchmark would still be culpable because they did not train or supervise their staff appropriately. And they have a responsibility to do so, contractually as well as that just inherent to running any kind of business.
When Larry Dubinsky could not be dissuaded from keeping his pawing fingers off of female students at Hyde, and a parent sued, both Larry Dubinsky and Hyde School were deemed culpable. Dubinsky's actions were beyond the pale – individual culpability, both personal as well as professional (he was faculty, even dean of Students at one point). Meanwhile, Hyde was not only negligent in that they were not able to keep him in check (they apparently did not try, probably because they did not take the years of complaints seriously), but also since they continued to require contact between the Plaintiff and Dubinsky even after formal complaints were made.
Note that what I said above has to do with legal justice, which is but a crude approximation of true moral justice.
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Sorry if I'm on a yammer re. legal justice, it's not personal... Off-forum I've been working my way through the dozens of pages of Richard Ofshe's testimony in the West Memphis Three case and I am duly outraged...
http://www.wm3.org/ (http://www.wm3.org/)
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URSUS
Well said.
professional cultability
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Now Ursus, you know you are not being fair to me by portraying me as coming from that place where people absolve programs. You know full well I've spent the past year taking apart the Hyde clock and putting it back together. But, and your post bears me out, suicide is not endemic to Hyde, even though Hyde is as much a brainwashing and abusing facility as any.
You ridicule Hyde for its piss-poor academics; it would seem you like to come across as intellectually superior to everyone else here. You also like to ridicule survivors who take too long, in your estimation, to "get over it."
Everyone makes fun of Hyde's piss-poor academics, you more than anyone. And yes, I think your 40-year Hyde obsession is a laughable copout for a wasted life.
You actually tried to use my posting an article about the inherent pathology of Lifespring and its destructive use of psychology – as proof that Hyde could work, if it only got rid of Joe Gauld! Namely, you thought Lifespring was an example of something that was okay!
What in the fuck are you talking about? I don't even know what Lifespring is! Post it.
The reason I'm touchy about what strikes me as a false allegation is owing to Che Gookin, aka TheWho, aka Botched Programming, aka you name it. At exactly the same time he barged into the Hyde forum like he owned it, although he's unaffiliated with the school, and I asked him not to dishonor the memory of a certain Hyde teacher, we were hit, literally five minutes later, by a plague of incredibly vile and truly pathological polls and posts from various personae claiming to have been Hyde students sexually molested by this teacher. The idiot didn't make it too hard to figure out the author. The idiot utterly defiled our discussions, and what was a vital, vibrant, much visited forum is now a dead, smoking ruin. That's why I don't apathetically just swallow any allegation I hear on Fornits anymore. It has nothing to do with a need to absolve programs.
Bullshit. The Hyde forum fell into disarray when you started stalking me all over fornits, misquoting me in my wake as having posted lemonparty links, calling everyone you disagreed with "Ursus," misquoting me, libeling me, and turning a discussion about Sumner Hawley's sexual involvement with returning alums into a circus about child molestation and worse.
What in the fuck are you talking about? Post my stalking posts. I left the Hyde forum only once, to post, in the appropriate forum, a complaint about pornography. You posted after me. I started the SH child molester circus? Post it.
There are other people that follow the Hyde forum than exclusively former Hyde students, what exactly did you expect to happen? I vacated myself for awhile, thinking that perhaps my posts would simply add more fuel to an already blazing fire. But you kept it up. Had you any interest in genuine discussion re. Hyde matters, you would have returned once things calmed down, but it does not appear as though you have.
The Hyde forum was assigned a moderator after the blowup, who promptly deleted several of Che's posts. I don't trust it anymore.
I find it humorous that you link Che Gookin, TheWho, and Botched Programming with one another, since these three have distinctly different posting styles. I find it especially ironic that you would single out TheWho as – of all posters on fornits – you are most like him in your manner of obfuscation. You attempt to discredit by exaggeration, derail by taking details out of context, and ridicule and discount anything that you can get away with. One might think you simply want to argue for argument's sake.
As for the real identity of TheWho, reread the "Willfull Suspension of Disbelief" thread again. I'm like the Who? Demagogue.
FAIR?? Lols, don't get on your high horse to me about fairness.
Did I say something about fairness? I pity you, dude.
Jesus Christ! I see you're putting your Hyde character assination skills to good use. That's what group was like, i bet. Your nastiness to someone who is quite polite to you, despite your weird trolling, is evidence of how screwy YOU are. Whether by Hyde or some character defect.
Character defect.
I get defensive when I find myself in a peer-controlled conformity culture and someone rallies the group against me.
Go kill that Who.
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Go kill that Who.
Amen, go sister, soul sister
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........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job....
Right...and you know this HOW? You make all sorts of statements like they're fact, but the reality is that most of us didn't know George, we don't know what his state of mind was when sent to Benchmark, or who he was as a person, he may or may not have been suicidal, but without all of the facts you absolutely CANNOT absolve Benchmark for whatever their responsibility may be.
I don't know what your deal is, why do you have such a raging hard on to try to deflect any accountability these programs should take for the havoc and cruelty and pain they've wreaked on minors? I got lucky in the sense in that I was never sexually abused, or beaten, or restrained, and after the first year spent at RMA I decided to just deal with it and try to come out of there with something worthwhile. And I did. And I didn't. I have good friends from there to this day. At the same time, those places change the way your mind works. Period. It's hard to come back out into the real world. Adjustment sucks, especially when the school does nothing to prepare you for post-graduation life, they actually expect you to fall flat on your face and you're not allowed to have any contact with your friends still at the school for 6 months. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a tad hypocritical?
Whatever, I've rambled at you long enough. I just don't understand how you can read some of the posts on here about the unbelievable cruelty that has been inflicted and still try to push whatever agenda it is that you're pushing. You have no business being here.
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........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job....
Right...and you know this HOW? You make all sorts of statements like they're fact, but the reality is that most of us didn't know George, we don't know what his state of mind was when sent to Benchmark, or who he was as a person, he may or may not have been suicidal, but without all of the facts you absolutely CANNOT absolve Benchmark for whatever their responsibility may be.
I don't know what your deal is, why do you have such a raging hard on to try to deflect any accountability these programs should take for the havoc and cruelty and pain they've wreaked on minors? I got lucky in the sense in that I was never sexually abused, or beaten, or restrained, and after the first year spent at RMA I decided to just deal with it and try to come out of there with something worthwhile. And I did. And I didn't. I have good friends from there to this day. At the same time, those places change the way your mind works. Period. It's hard to come back out into the real world. Adjustment sucks, especially when the school does nothing to prepare you for post-graduation life, they actually expect you to fall flat on your face and you're not allowed to have any contact with your friends still at the school for 6 months. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a tad hypocritical?
Whatever, I've rambled at you long enough. I just don't understand how you can read some of the posts on here about the unbelievable cruelty that has been inflicted and still try to push whatever agenda it is that you're pushing. You have no business being here.
i could never be friends with people who abused me, even if they aren't responsiblel for it mentally
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........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job....
Right...and you know this HOW? You make all sorts of statements like they're fact, but the reality is that most of us didn't know George, we don't know what his state of mind was when sent to Benchmark, or who he was as a person, he may or may not have been suicidal, but without all of the facts you absolutely CANNOT absolve Benchmark for whatever their responsibility may be.
I don't know what your deal is, why do you have such a raging hard on to try to deflect any accountability these programs should take for the havoc and cruelty and pain they've wreaked on minors? I got lucky in the sense in that I was never sexually abused, or beaten, or restrained, and after the first year spent at RMA I decided to just deal with it and try to come out of there with something worthwhile. And I did. And I didn't. I have good friends from there to this day. At the same time, those places change the way your mind works. Period. It's hard to come back out into the real world. Adjustment sucks, especially when the school does nothing to prepare you for post-graduation life, they actually expect you to fall flat on your face and you're not allowed to have any contact with your friends still at the school for 6 months. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a tad hypocritical?
Whatever, I've rambled at you long enough. I just don't understand how you can read some of the posts on here about the unbelievable cruelty that has been inflicted and still try to push whatever agenda it is that you're pushing. You have no business being here.
psy mentioned he was suicidal when he showed up on Benchmarks doorstep.
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any one with functioning gray matter has contemplated ending it.
woe is you. one day you will lose someone tragically and you'll look back to this time, when you talked shit. you'll wish you could take it back
you can't take it back. as your life crumbles around you, you'll desperately scramble. You'll try to escape, you'll want a do over. there will be no escape. instead your pangs will be pangy. your regret will be bigger than life.
it will be just you and your regret. The biggest black hole imaginable. All that weight forcing itself on to 1 square inch. Then it explodes. Fueled by infinite, white hot suffocation.
i've seen fire and i've seen rain
i've seen sunny days that i thought would never end
but I always thought that I'd see you again.g
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Well it's a good thing I don't care about anyone then, isn't it?
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what's even gooderer is that no one cares that you don't care.
have you ever been high as fuck?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2spZ-NDfS4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2spZ-NDfS4)
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double post, found a better way of putting it. Sorry kids.
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........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job....
Right...and you know this HOW? You make all sorts of statements like they're fact, but the reality is that most of us didn't know George, we don't know what his state of mind was when sent to Benchmark, or who he was as a person, he may or may not have been suicidal, but without all of the facts you absolutely CANNOT absolve Benchmark for whatever their responsibility may be.
I don't know what your deal is, why do you have such a raging hard on to try to deflect any accountability these programs should take for the havoc and cruelty and pain they've wreaked on minors? I got lucky in the sense in that I was never sexually abused, or beaten, or restrained, and after the first year spent at RMA I decided to just deal with it and try to come out of there with something worthwhile. And I did. And I didn't. I have good friends from there to this day. At the same time, those places change the way your mind works. Period. It's hard to come back out into the real world. Adjustment sucks, especially when the school does nothing to prepare you for post-graduation life, they actually expect you to fall flat on your face and you're not allowed to have any contact with your friends still at the school for 6 months. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a tad hypocritical?
Whatever, I've rambled at you long enough. I just don't understand how you can read some of the posts on here about the unbelievable cruelty that has been inflicted and still try to push whatever agenda it is that you're pushing. You have no business being here.
psy mentioned he was suicidal when he showed up on Benchmarks doorstep.
And? Go away.
-
........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job....
Right...and you know this HOW? You make all sorts of statements like they're fact, but the reality is that most of us didn't know George, we don't know what his state of mind was when sent to Benchmark, or who he was as a person, he may or may not have been suicidal, but without all of the facts you absolutely CANNOT absolve Benchmark for whatever their responsibility may be.
I don't know what your deal is, why do you have such a raging hard on to try to deflect any accountability these programs should take for the havoc and cruelty and pain they've wreaked on minors? I got lucky in the sense in that I was never sexually abused, or beaten, or restrained, and after the first year spent at RMA I decided to just deal with it and try to come out of there with something worthwhile. And I did. And I didn't. I have good friends from there to this day. At the same time, those places change the way your mind works. Period. It's hard to come back out into the real world. Adjustment sucks, especially when the school does nothing to prepare you for post-graduation life, they actually expect you to fall flat on your face and you're not allowed to have any contact with your friends still at the school for 6 months. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a tad hypocritical?
Whatever, I've rambled at you long enough. I just don't understand how you can read some of the posts on here about the unbelievable cruelty that has been inflicted and still try to push whatever agenda it is that you're pushing. You have no business being here.
psy mentioned he was suicidal when he showed up on Benchmarks doorstep.
And? Go away.
He is right, psy did say that George showed up at Benchmark and was suicidal. You should go back and reread the thread.
-
........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job....
Right...and you know this HOW? You make all sorts of statements like they're fact, but the reality is that most of us didn't know George, we don't know what his state of mind was when sent to Benchmark, or who he was as a person, he may or may not have been suicidal, but without all of the facts you absolutely CANNOT absolve Benchmark for whatever their responsibility may be.
I don't know what your deal is, why do you have such a raging hard on to try to deflect any accountability these programs should take for the havoc and cruelty and pain they've wreaked on minors? I got lucky in the sense in that I was never sexually abused, or beaten, or restrained, and after the first year spent at RMA I decided to just deal with it and try to come out of there with something worthwhile. And I did. And I didn't. I have good friends from there to this day. At the same time, those places change the way your mind works. Period. It's hard to come back out into the real world. Adjustment sucks, especially when the school does nothing to prepare you for post-graduation life, they actually expect you to fall flat on your face and you're not allowed to have any contact with your friends still at the school for 6 months. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a tad hypocritical?
Whatever, I've rambled at you long enough. I just don't understand how you can read some of the posts on here about the unbelievable cruelty that has been inflicted and still try to push whatever agenda it is that you're pushing. You have no business being here.
psy mentioned he was suicidal when he showed up on Benchmarks doorstep.
And? Go away.
He is right, psy did say that George showed up at Benchmark and was suicidal. You should go back and reread the thread.
the issue is, though, how does he know this. Benchmark hardly gives accurate descriptions of detainees, and nor do many health"professionals", not that ti matters that much
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........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job....
Right...and you know this HOW? You make all sorts of statements like they're fact, but the reality is that most of us didn't know George, we don't know what his state of mind was when sent to Benchmark, or who he was as a person, he may or may not have been suicidal, but without all of the facts you absolutely CANNOT absolve Benchmark for whatever their responsibility may be.
I don't know what your deal is, why do you have such a raging hard on to try to deflect any accountability these programs should take for the havoc and cruelty and pain they've wreaked on minors? I got lucky in the sense in that I was never sexually abused, or beaten, or restrained, and after the first year spent at RMA I decided to just deal with it and try to come out of there with something worthwhile. And I did. And I didn't. I have good friends from there to this day. At the same time, those places change the way your mind works. Period. It's hard to come back out into the real world. Adjustment sucks, especially when the school does nothing to prepare you for post-graduation life, they actually expect you to fall flat on your face and you're not allowed to have any contact with your friends still at the school for 6 months. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a tad hypocritical?
Whatever, I've rambled at you long enough. I just don't understand how you can read some of the posts on here about the unbelievable cruelty that has been inflicted and still try to push whatever agenda it is that you're pushing. You have no business being here.
psy mentioned he was suicidal when he showed up on Benchmarks doorstep.
And? Go away.
Yes, I am aware of that, thanks. My annoyance stemmed from that being the point he decided to go with. And if you read the rest of his posts from there on out, he proves himself to be an ass. That's all.
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........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job....
Right...and you know this HOW? You make all sorts of statements like they're fact, but the reality is that most of us didn't know George, we don't know what his state of mind was when sent to Benchmark, or who he was as a person, he may or may not have been suicidal, but without all of the facts you absolutely CANNOT absolve Benchmark for whatever their responsibility may be.
I don't know what your deal is, why do you have such a raging hard on to try to deflect any accountability these programs should take for the havoc and cruelty and pain they've wreaked on minors? I got lucky in the sense in that I was never sexually abused, or beaten, or restrained, and after the first year spent at RMA I decided to just deal with it and try to come out of there with something worthwhile. And I did. And I didn't. I have good friends from there to this day. At the same time, those places change the way your mind works. Period. It's hard to come back out into the real world. Adjustment sucks, especially when the school does nothing to prepare you for post-graduation life, they actually expect you to fall flat on your face and you're not allowed to have any contact with your friends still at the school for 6 months. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a tad hypocritical?
Whatever, I've rambled at you long enough. I just don't understand how you can read some of the posts on here about the unbelievable cruelty that has been inflicted and still try to push whatever agenda it is that you're pushing. You have no business being here.
psy mentioned he was suicidal when he showed up on Benchmarks doorstep.
And? Go away.
Yes, I am aware of that, thanks. My annoyance stemmed from that being the point he decided to go with. And if you read the rest of his posts from there on out, he proves himself to be an ass. That's all.
These long and complex refutations of minute points of one type or another are both amusing and tellin
And most of this thread seems to be composed of them.
For quite a number of us in the real world (ie not obsessively on fornits) the truth of various situations is reasonably apparent from the get go.
Without all the drama and righteousness, and, dare I say, paranoid delusions that underlie these quarrels and justifications and multiple re-postings of other people's (oftenhand) comments.
-
........ Yeah he probably was suffering prior to Benchmark, but the POINT IS that Benchmark did not help him. Obviously. I don't know what happened on that day, but that's NOT the point. These places are supposed to help children, they're not supposed to be just a holding pen, or worse a place for impotent adults to find some kind of power. And your weak Mcdonalds comparison, well, working somewhere voluntarily and being placed somewhere against your will with your civil rights ripped away from you and no one to count on are completely different animals.
The McDonalds wasn’t a good analogy, I agree. The point I was trying to make was the guy showed up at Benchmark and he was suicidal and eventually committed suicide. I can see that it is determined that Benchmark did not help him enough to prevent this, but they cant be held responsible for his death. We don’t know what triggered it… a letter from his girl friend or phone call from a family member, staff member not being compassionate etc. It could be anything, so this isn’t a death we can attribute to the program, friend, staff member, boss at his job....
Right...and you know this HOW? You make all sorts of statements like they're fact, but the reality is that most of us didn't know George, we don't know what his state of mind was when sent to Benchmark, or who he was as a person, he may or may not have been suicidal, but without all of the facts you absolutely CANNOT absolve Benchmark for whatever their responsibility may be.
I don't know what your deal is, why do you have such a raging hard on to try to deflect any accountability these programs should take for the havoc and cruelty and pain they've wreaked on minors? I got lucky in the sense in that I was never sexually abused, or beaten, or restrained, and after the first year spent at RMA I decided to just deal with it and try to come out of there with something worthwhile. And I did. And I didn't. I have good friends from there to this day. At the same time, those places change the way your mind works. Period. It's hard to come back out into the real world. Adjustment sucks, especially when the school does nothing to prepare you for post-graduation life, they actually expect you to fall flat on your face and you're not allowed to have any contact with your friends still at the school for 6 months. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a tad hypocritical?
Whatever, I've rambled at you long enough. I just don't understand how you can read some of the posts on here about the unbelievable cruelty that has been inflicted and still try to push whatever agenda it is that you're pushing. You have no business being here.
psy mentioned he was suicidal when he showed up on Benchmarks doorstep.
And? Go away.
Yes, I am aware of that, thanks. My annoyance stemmed from that being the point he decided to go with. And if you read the rest of his posts from there on out, he proves himself to be an ass. That's all.
These long and complex refutations of minute points of one type or another are both amusing and tellin
And most of this thread seems to be composed of them.
For quite a number of us in the real world (ie not obsessively on fornits) the truth of various situations is reasonably apparent from the get go.
Without all the drama and righteousness, and, dare I say, paranoid delusions that underlie these quarrels and justifications and multiple re-postings of other people's (oftenhand) comments.
Seems we have come full circle and can agree we do not know the cause of George taking his own life. He was troubled when he came to Benchmark and Benchmark was unable to help him. Whether George felt Benchmark was responsible or some other event in his life was, we will never know. All we do know is that George suffered greatly and could not find a solution to his pain other than ending his own life.
...
-
These long and complex refutations of minute points of one type or another are both amusing and tellin
And most of this thread seems to be composed of them.
For quite a number of us in the real world (ie not obsessively on fornits) the truth of various situations is reasonably apparent from the get go.
Without all the drama and righteousness, and, dare I say, paranoid delusions that underlie these quarrels and justifications and multiple re-postings of other people's (oftenhand) comments.
Whatever you say, voice from nowhere, you've got it all dialed. I think that I'm going to instate one of the golden rules here...if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all. I reside in the real world, thank you very much, and I also happen to enjoy this forum. So sue me. Paranoid delusions? You're silly. And how interesting that you judge any of of us for being "obsessively on fornits". You're here so what does that say about you? Fornits is like crack, especially for people like me who are fairly new. And so what. How about you go back to your real world and leave the rest of us in peace. Sounds like you're just being grinchy and looking for a fight. Merry Christmas!
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what's even gooderer is that no one cares that you don't care.
Gooderer is next to godliernessness.
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i could never be friends with people who abused me, even if they aren't responsiblel for it mentally
I get what you're saying. We had an unspoken code, we were there for eachother. That's why I consider myself lucky. We never abused eachother, we were just there for whatever the other person needed. That's what made it real. We got eachother.
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These long and complex refutations of minute points of one type or another are both amusing and tellin
TellinG. T e l l i n G. Yes I am obsessed, but I'm more obsessed with what kind of asshole you must be to come on here and be negative. This is the last one though. I'm done with you.
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Well. What if some cult leader had convinced you that Uranium was good for you? Yellowcake anyone?
Who cares what some cult leader convinced Jayne to do? The buck has to stop somewhere. Jayne is running a business. It doesn't really matter if she has snow or cheese between her ears, she still has certain responsibilities inherent to running a business. Period.
If she were giving out the Benchmark wisdom by handing it out to people on a street corner for free, then you can wax poetic about whether she was snowed or is snowing. Realistically, as everyone here knows, it is more than a little of both.
Do note that there is a difference between personal culpability and professional culpability.
If a staff member's actions were outside the company norm, then that individual could be held to task, on an individual basis, for destructive actions towards George. From what I've read, those actions were within Benchmark's standard modus operandi. They were, in fact, SOP. Correct me if I am wrong here, please.
Correct. I'm not arguing that Bencmark, or the staff involved in the incident, aren't responsible for the suicide. I'm just saying that they may not have intended to cause harm.
Even in such a case, i.e., with regards to an out-of-line staff person, Benchmark would still be culpable because they did not train or supervise their staff appropriately.
Very true. But it depends on whose view of what is appropriate training. Most folks value science, proven methods, etc... The troubled teen industry generally tends to "wing it" and use "what works" based on trial and (tragic) error. They also seem to have a somewhat different definition of "success".
And they have a responsibility to do so, contractually as well as that just inherent to running any kind of business.
When Larry Dubinsky could not be dissuaded from keeping his pawing fingers off of female students at Hyde, and a parent sued, both Larry Dubinsky and Hyde School were deemed culpable. Dubinsky's actions were beyond the pale – individual culpability, both personal as well as professional (he was faculty, even dean of Students at one point). Meanwhile, Hyde was not only negligent in that they were not able to keep him in check (they apparently did not try, probably because they did not take the years of complaints seriously)
If the staff member was doing anything remotely like you describe, there should have never even been an attempt to keep him in check. He should have been immediately fired, arrested, and prosecuted. Perhaps the school thought that he could be convinced to stop doing what he was doing (avoiding embarrassment for the school).
but also since they continued to require contact between the Plaintiff and Dubinsky even after formal complaints were made.
Note that what I said above has to do with legal justice, which is but a crude approximation of true moral justice.
Very true.
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i could never be friends with people who abused me, even if they aren't responsiblel for it mentally
I get what you're saying. We had an unspoken code, we were there for eachother. That's why I consider myself lucky. We never abused eachother, we were just there for whatever the other person needed. That's what made it real. We got eachother.
Good peer support is heathly and encouraged. This helps build self esteem.
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For quite a number of us in the real world (ie not obsessively on fornits) the truth of various situations is reasonably apparent from the get go.
And what might that truth be? Please clarify it for all us box-minded fools, running around in our gerbil balls. You're free to speak your mind here, let's hear it.
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That's exactly the point.
Face value. Taking things at face value.
What if, just for 1 second, contemplate this, what if we removed the fragile, vulnerable parent from the equation??
If we sent in an independent 3rd party to spend real time (2 weeks) at these schools they would see it for it's face value. These kool aid camps would be shut down. These education consultants aren't independent - they're on the payroll. When visitors come round, the schools show their pre-packaged fluff. They do the peacock dance.
That's all we want, we want these these places to be seen at face value.
Instead vulnerable parents buy the window dressing and sign over their kid.....
Ryan's Mother
These words were spoken to me at a time I felt I had no more to give & no hope left. The more I gave, the more I forgave, the harder I tried - the worse things got. I discovered in myself a well so deep it was bottomless, there was nothing I would not do to save my child. Yet of all the people in the world - it became crystal clear to me, that I alone could not save him. I had to have the faith & courage to trust & let go.
I let go.
It is not easy to watch someone you love struggle with painful life & death issues. I held onto the knowledge that of all the places Ryan could be at this time in his life, he was safe. With all the struggles & challenges he confronted I knew he was in the perfect place to handle it, manage it & move on. Life rarely gives you an opportunity to evaluate your life/decisions or to have in your corner the support of adults & peers every step of the way.
Change takes time, energy & effort - on everyone's part. Ryan did not walk this journey on his own. We all grew personally from this experience. Looking back, I have no guilt or regrets. I know I gave all I had to give and if I had to do it once again, I would not change a thing.
I've always thought that if you were a great parent you'd have great kids. However, what I have learned is great kids sometimes don't have the best parents & that you KNOW you are a great parent when you have a challenging child. I believe ALL my children were born into the perfect family, our family. And I was chosen to be the one for them & they were chosen to be the ones for me.
(What on god's great earth is that supposed to mean???????? How bout I drank too much damn kool aid!)
As a parent, I am so full of gratitude toward everyone at Elan. I know that here, in this school, the course of many lives have been forever altered. And I am blessed to be the parent of a young man whose life's choices inspire me daily. I am very proud of you Ryan.
Karlin gets a BMW, counselors get bread crumbs, graduates get brainwashed and your retirement savings goes down the drain
And why are all you pro-programmies willing to accept so much collateral damage? Why aren't you inclined to right the wrongs of the TBS past. Who's responsibility is it to do so? A public acknowledgement is long overdue.
Until then, you can find us at Fornits, the only place for those who know right from TBS wrong. The place where we can collectively unearth the layers of horseshit we were buried under, condense the very same unearthed shit (which is now very soggy), mix it with Rhino sperm and firehose your own witches brew right back at you.
Damn, too bad UHS and CRC couldn't have talked Al Gore out of inventing the internet.
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Here are a bunch of video clips pertaining to Benchmark suicide attempts (and successes) both in and out of program:
Yet Another Suicide (http://http://www.fornits.com/yetAnotherSuicide.mov)
Students slitting wrists (http://http://www.fornits.com/studentsSlittingWrists.mov)
Those are from an interview with a Benchmark student down in Cali. The audio isn't censored since they know we talked to him. Yes, you get to hear my silly voice again. You should know I don't sound like that to myself.
Another attempt (http://http://www.fornits.com/anotherAttempt.mov)
This is from an interview with a neighbor across the street from Benchmark explaining how just a month after George's successful suicide attempt there was a second kid on the bridge threatening to do the same exact thing. Perhaps that's why they eventually fenced the bridge off.
Ambulance seen this year (http://http://www.fornits.com/PoliceThisYear.mov)
That's from the same interview with the neighbor. Apparantly things haven't improved all that much at Benchmark since there are still suicide attempts. Want more? She wasn't the only neighbor we interviewed.
Doctor judges Benchmark a dangerous environment (http://http://www.fornits.com/bmarkDangerous.mov)
Here, Buddah22's father describes how a doctor at Loma Linda hospital refused to send him back to Benchmark, judging it a dangerous environment for him, given that he was suicidal at the time.
That clip also mentions Dr. Mauer, and I have lots more about him in various interviews.