Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: LMJ630 on March 20, 2007, 11:29:58 AM
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Hello,
I'm looking for information on Lone Star Expeditions located in Groveton, TX. I tried doing a search on this site but nothing came up.
If any one went to the program, please post or contact me via PM about your experiences.
Thanks!
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Hey everyone,
I'd really appreciate some feedback about this place. My research has indicated that they have been sued a few times within the past few years, all for negligence (one kid died, another kid was sent there by one parent in violation of a court orderstating that the other parent had custody). I am sure that there are people on this board who knew those kids.
Anyone, please, let me know your good or bad experiences with this program.
Thanks!
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I've heard about the place in passing from a person I used to work with, but that was a couple years ago. He told me they used to go by another name before being bought out or something like that.
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try asking issac or cafety. they might have specific info
why r u looking into it, if i may ask?
if a kid died there it has to be really far out on the abuse scale.
Even the most abusive program like Cedu, or Kids as far as I know dont have kids die in non-suicide. (of course those things are easy to hush up)
Its likely they changed their name to distance themselves form past cild torture but still the same people, same games
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They were recently sued (July 2006) regarding the death of a boy named Matthew Meyer, who died while attending their program. The boy's mother claimed that the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.
What was the name they used to go by?
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They were recently sued (July 2006) regarding the death of a boy named Matthew Meyer, who died while attending their program. The boy's mother claimed that the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.
What was the name they used to go by?
Are there any news links to this story, or any supporting documentation so we can add him to the memorial list?
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Copyright 2004 The Houston Chronicle Publishing Company
The Houston Chronicle
September 22, 2004, Wednesday 3 STAR EDITION
SECTION: B; Pg. 3
LENGTH: 106 words
HEADLINE: BRAZORIA COUNTY;
Teen dies after hike at school
SOURCE: From staff reports
DATELINE: ALVIN
ALVIN - A former Alvin High School freshman a attending an East Texas alternative school program collapsed and died after a one-mile hike Friday, officials said Tuesday.
[1 mile? Was that a warm up for the 10 mile? It was 97* with 90% humidity, at 5pm that day.]
Parents of the male student, who has not been identified, withdrew him from Alvin High School on Thursday so he could attend Lone Star Expeditions School near Apple Springs in Trinity County, said Alvin school district spokeswoman Shirley Brothers.
The boy had just finished the hike at 5 p.m. Friday when he said he felt faint and lost consciousness, said Scott Spaw, executive director of Lone Star Expeditions.
An autopsy is being done, Spaw said.
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More available through court records. Contact Trinity County District Court at 936-642-1118. Case# 19631. Filed on July 31, 2006 against both Aspen and Lone Star.
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Copyright 2004 The Houston Chronicle Publishing Company
The Houston Chronicle
September 22, 2004, Wednesday 3 STAR EDITION
SECTION: B; Pg. 3
LENGTH: 106 words
HEADLINE: BRAZORIA COUNTY;
Teen dies after hike at school
SOURCE: From staff reports
DATELINE: ALVIN
ALVIN - A former Alvin High School freshman a attending an East Texas alternative school program collapsed and died after a one-mile hike Friday, officials said Tuesday.
[1 mile? Was that a warm up for the 10 mile? It was 97* with 90% humidity, at 5pm that day.]
Parents of the male student, who has not been identified, withdrew him from Alvin High School on Thursday so he could attend Lone Star Expeditions School near Apple Springs in Trinity County, said Alvin school district spokeswoman Shirley Brothers.
The boy had just finished the hike at 5 p.m. Friday when he said he felt faint and lost consciousness, said Scott Spaw, executive director of Lone Star Expeditions.
An autopsy is being done, Spaw said.
~~
More available through court records. Contact Trinity County District Court at 936-642-1118. Case# 19631. Filed on July 31, 2006 against both Aspen and Lone Star.
AEG has been pretty busy snuffing kids in their programs recently. I wonder if this fatality made the "stat sheet"? :roll:
In their flagship program, ASR, it has been shown via the Shapiro study that 1 in 153 commit suicide as well. They're just dying to get out I guess...
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Its too bad, I had heard about this. The child never really got a chance to participate in the program. He was walking up to meet his group that he was going to stay with when he collapsed. I think it was like a mile or less. No autopsy results have been released nor charges made. Its just one of those unfortunate things that cant be prevented no matter what any of us do.
This is true classic fornits though, we have conspiracy theories “snuffing kids in their programs” and DJ who thinks we should count it as a suicide to help support his high suicide rate theory in TBS’s.
If you look at the facts and hard numbers (http://http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=252502#252502) over the past 5 years close to 7,000 children took their own lives between the ages of 8 and 18 and greater than 7,000 were killed in public schools and at home( that’s 14,000 children). Of the thousands of children who attended Therapeutic Boarding schools ( TBS’s) only 1 managed to slip through the safety net, those are pretty impressive numbers which doesn’t begin to talk about all the kids that were turned around and put back on track.
...
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Copyright 2004 The Houston Chronicle Publishing Company
The Houston Chronicle
September 22, 2004, Wednesday 3 STAR EDITION
SECTION: B; Pg. 3
LENGTH: 106 words
HEADLINE: BRAZORIA COUNTY;
Teen dies after hike at school
SOURCE: From staff reports
DATELINE: ALVIN
ALVIN - A former Alvin High School freshman a attending an East Texas alternative school program collapsed and died after a one-mile hike Friday, officials said Tuesday.
[1 mile? Was that a warm up for the 10 mile? It was 97* with 90% humidity, at 5pm that day.]
Parents of the male student, who has not been identified, withdrew him from Alvin High School on Thursday so he could attend Lone Star Expeditions School near Apple Springs in Trinity County, said Alvin school district spokeswoman Shirley Brothers.
The boy had just finished the hike at 5 p.m. Friday when he said he felt faint and lost consciousness, said Scott Spaw, executive director of Lone Star Expeditions.
An autopsy is being done, Spaw said.
~~
More available through court records. Contact Trinity County District Court at 936-642-1118. Case# 19631. Filed on July 31, 2006 against both Aspen and Lone Star.
AEG has been pretty busy snuffing kids in their programs recently. I wonder if this fatality made the "stat sheet"? :roll:
In their flagship program, ASR, it has been shown via the Shapiro study that 1 in 153 commit suicide as well. They're just dying to get out I guess...
of course if it was longer than a i mile hike, if there had been previous overwork... theyd be at risk of criminal charges. Of course they wouldnt misrepresent the truth about what they had been dong to that boy...that woul be dishonest and people arent dishonest to stay out of jail. And these authorities sure do a good job of investigating suspicous deaths in program...just look at rpbert reyes at thayler..or that girl Michele who died over a period of 2 weeks on one of those wonderful forced thereputic marches no charges filed of course
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Facts and hard numbers are available here:
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/INMEMORIAM.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/INMEMORIAM.html)
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Li ... mitted.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20List%20of%20Names%20-names%20omitted.htm)
http://www.isaccorp.org/deaths.asp (http://www.isaccorp.org/deaths.asp)
Although none of the lists are conclusive.
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Facts and hard numbers are available here:
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/INMEMORIAM.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/INMEMORIAM.html)
http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20Li ... mitted.htm (http://www.caica.org/NEWS%20Deaths%20List%20of%20Names%20-names%20omitted.htm)
http://www.isaccorp.org/deaths.asp (http://www.isaccorp.org/deaths.asp)
Although none of the lists are conclusive.
some thoughts:
When I first started visiting fornits and was pointed to these sites as proof of the problems in the industry I found it a daunting task to decifer/wade thru, if you will, the long list. I appreciate the work that goes into documenting and posting this information but I found there is no chronological order or categories which could help the parent if he/she wants to see problems in just Wilderness or TBS’s or maybe residential care facilities. There are deaths listed on these sites which occurred at home (outside the industry) some were by natural causes others were not. It just didn’t provide enough information for it to be meaningful to me as a parent. I wanted to see if the problems were contained or focused in one area, did they effect TBS’s more than RTC’s? Were Wilderness programs safer than Residential care? Has the problem improved over time? Were they unique to the TBS industry? Etc. Would my child be safer in a TBS/wilderness program than where he/she is now?
I was surprised this information wasn’t available and suggested many times over the past years that it might be more meaningful to put the data in some type of order that may help guide the parents and shine a light on the problem areas. I don’t understand why these sites don’t do this?
Anyway, maybe I am the odd one out but I found it more meaningful and clearer to approach the data positioning in a matrix format which allowed the parents to view a specific area or date or the industry as a whole. This is why I have been reorganizing the data and updating it here on fornits. I have received some very positive feedback so We have continued and will expand on the template that we have have.
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All of the different titles are really bunk, TBS, RTC, Wilderness, Emotional Growth, or whatever is meaningless. It's the model and philosophy that causes the abuse and most of these places follow the same philosophy and one of three abusive models(CEDU, Straight, Life Spring(est?). Wilderness therapy and boot camps have their own little spin but suffer from the same fucked up think.
If you truly want to do something productive start by helping survivors report abuse. Some post their stories on the web but when it comes to reporting abuse the situation becomes difficult. Reporting abuse to the state can be complicated by red tape or impossible because the program is not state licensed or regulated. Reporting abuse to NGO's like NATSAP or JCAHO can be difficult because they're pro-industry and keep their regs under lock and key or a hefty fee.
Your numbers are really pointless because they only take into account deaths. If you use deaths as the only indicators of abuse then programs like Casa by the sea or Peninsula Village can slip under the radar. Even if you added reported abuse to your numbers you would still come up with a distorted view of the problem because reporting abuse is difficult and rarely done by abuse victims. Just think about all of the people who were abused at straight, how many of them died there?
You see where I'm going?
Also being shot at school is different from being killed by someone who has complete control over you. Deaths in programs are culminations of abuse not random acts of idiocy.
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You guys are breaking my heart.
A few qualifiers and disclaimers if I may: You must do your research before leaving your child in ANYONE'S care for ANY length of time. SO I'm not going to make any generalizations about all wilderness camps or even all of Aspen's programs. I also know that by the time a family is thinking about wilderness camps their kids need pretty serious help.
I don't give a shit about Aspen because I have never cared for their corporate approaches. But they are the parent company of LoneStar Expeditions...and I worked there for three years, including the time frame when Matt died.
Matt was not in my group (I worked with girls) but I did hang with the guys for a bit one afternoon right after Matt got there. I met him and shook his hand. And I know every single one of the people that worked with Matt very well, in fact, I personally trained most of the people working there now. If you don't know me or my former coworkers, please don't judge us as sicko sadists who like to punish kids and make them suffer.
Truth is...everyone I ever knew at LoneStar was there for the love of children. We know how awesome it is when you do something difficult and succeed...and we knew those kids needed some self-esteem. We did not push our kids to dangerous places either physically or mentally. And we did NOT neglect their health, we had kids in and out of the doctor and ER every damn day, half of them faking and us wanting to be sure there wasn't something really wrong. In fact, half our staff was coming out of wilderness first responder class (80 hours total to handle things like this) on our week OFF the day that Matt died. We piled into about 3 vehicles and drove like bats outta hell to get there. There were about 20 medical professionals with Matt that day. 8 WFR trainees plus our instructor from out of state, an ambulance crew, our field medic, and Matt's field staff members could not keep Matt alive. It just was not true that people just stood back and watched him die unconcerned.
What happened is that Matt sat down by the tree away from his group and started making snoring noises. His group and staff thought he was goofing around, joking about how tired he was. Why? Because Matt was a funny funny guy, I know that just from meeting him in one afternoon! Why else? Well, do any of YOU know what a death rattle sounds like? I don't and neither did his staff. But they knew Matt...and they knew that he was pretty respectful to them, so when he didn't stop snoring when they told him enough was enough...they went to check on him and found him in cardiac arrest and started CPR.
Matt's autopsy revealed that he died of an unknown heart defect that no one could have found prior to his placement with LSE, and that it would have killed him that day whether he was hiking in the Texas heat, or sitting home in the AC watching TV.
When all this happened we were all devastated and we weren't just out to cover our asses either. We were horrified that something could happen to one of OUR kids. Our staff was made of people who had made their LIVES of helping kids...and we did a damn good job of it too.
LoneStar is the place where I met some of my best friends and have some of my fondest memories...because when I worked there, I was part of something WONDERFUL. If I'm a sadistic prick who enjoys victimizing children, I will eat the roof off my house.
What you guys don't see in the statistics while you are looking for ways to horribleize my job, is that I met about 200 kids in three years there, and I know exactly that many stories. I could tell you EVERY ONE of them just by a picture alone...and about 20 of them are still in touch with me on a weekly basis. About half of those 200 kids hugged me and sobbed when they left...and a handful of mothers knew all about me from letters their children wrote home, and wanted to hug me and thank me for all I had done to take care of their baby. And I'm just ONE that happened to be a lot of kids' fav. I trained another round of staff as my legacy and they are helping kids as I type this.
LSE helps many many many kids, usually when we get them we care more about them than they care about themselves. Not because it is Aspen, not because it is wilderness, but because of the people who live and work with these kids every day.
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What happened is that Matt sat down by the tree away from his group and started making snoring noises. His group and staff thought he was goofing around, joking about how tired he was. Why? Because Matt was a funny funny guy, I know that just from meeting him in one afternoon! Why else? Well, do any of YOU know what a death rattle sounds like? I don't and neither did his staff. But they knew Matt...and they knew that he was pretty respectful to them, so when he didn't stop snoring when they told him enough was enough...they went to check on him and found him in cardiac arrest and started CPR.
That poor kid. Were there other kids around?
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Truth is...everyone I ever knew at LoneStar was there for the love of children. We know how awesome it is when you do something difficult and succeed...and we knew those kids needed some self-esteem. We did not push our kids to dangerous places either physically or mentally. And we did NOT neglect their health, we had kids in and out of the doctor and ER every damn day, half of them faking and us wanting to be sure there wasn't something really wrong.
If that is the truth, how come that the concept of bringing children involuntary treatment and in fact a kind of imprisonment without any face-to-face contact with the family for weeks, is recognized as abuse even as far as 6000 kilometers away?
How come that the reputation of LSE can be so bad that they are known for abuse outside the states?
Regardless of the type of crimes, drug-use or illness a child could have done or contracted, in my country we dont have a kind of placement that doesn't allow the child to have face-to-face contact with the child every 14 days.
We are talking of children, who have taken other peoples lives and even those children have more rights regarding having their version of the truth told or getting acces to meet their own family than children in the LSE program.
Thought-provoking, is it not?
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You guys are breaking my heart.
What, you want us to cry a bucket for you? Any sympathy sh0uld be directed to Matthew's parents.
And I know every single one of the people that worked with Matt very well, in fact, I personally trained most of the people working there now. If you don't know me or my former coworkers, please don't judge us as sicko sadists who like to punish kids and make them suffer.
It will more likely be along the lines of sicko sadists who denied his needs (neglect), in this situation. He certainly suffered.
Truth is...everyone I ever knew at LoneStar was there for the love of children. We know how awesome it is when you do something difficult and succeed...and we knew those kids needed some self-esteem.
Guess what? There are so many other ethical, evidence-based options for kids with low self-esteem. There's no reason to banish them to the woods and subject them to the risk of death or serious injury.
We did not push our kids to dangerous places either physically or mentally. And we did NOT neglect their health, we had kids in and out of the doctor and ER every damn day, half of them faking and us wanting to be sure there wasn't something really wrong.
Doesn't square with the report.
They were recently sued (July 2006) regarding the death of a boy named Matthew Meyer, who died while attending their program. The boy's mother claimed that the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.
In fact, half our staff was coming out of wilderness first responder class (80 hours total to handle things like this) on our week OFF the day that Matt died.
Handle things "like this"?
What does WFR training teach about the effects of sudden drug withdrawal?
How much did Matthew weigh?
Was heat a factor? It was 97* with 90% humidity, at 5pm that day.
What bipolar med was he taking? Some psych drugs tend to raise body temp without exercion.
What's the maximum temp you can march kids at? It's 90* in Utah where they've had numerous deaths due to heat exhaustion and have had to revise their maximum temp from 95* to 90*. Not that programs adhere to these rules, but they're on the books.
We piled into about 3 vehicles and drove like bats outta hell to get there. There were about 20 medical professionals with Matt that day. 8 WFR trainees plus our instructor from out of state, an ambulance crew, our field medic, and Matt's field staff members could not keep Matt alive. It just was not true that people just stood back and watched him die unconcerned.
Doesn't square with the mother's claim.
The boy's mother claimed that the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.
You admit yourself
What happened is that Matt sat down by the tree away from his group and started making snoring noises.
Started making snoring noises? You mean, "death rattle"? Is that not covered in the 80 hours of WFR training? No EMTs on staff?
Seems to conflict with LSEs statement:
The boy had just finished the hike at 5 p.m. Friday when he said he felt faint and lost consciousness, said Scott Spaw, executive director of Lone Star Expeditions.
His group and staff thought he was goofing around, joking about how tired he was.
That's the same defense they all use, "We thought he was faking". How tired could he be after a 1 mile hike?
Well, do any of YOU know what a death rattle sounds like? I don't and neither did his staff.
Probably not, but then none of us take kids into the Outback, deny them their psych meds, and force them to march. Have you not read the 50 some accounts of deaths in Wilderness programs? If you and your colleagues haven't, perhaps you sh0uld so you have an understanding of what can go wrong. Apparently the WFR training isn't adequate.
But they knew Matt...and they knew that he was pretty respectful to them, so when he didn't stop snoring when they told him enough was enough...they went to check on him and found him in cardiac arrest and started CPR.
When did the vomitting begin? Respectful? First day, I'm sure he was terrified.
Matt's autopsy revealed that he died of an unknown heart defect that no one could have found prior to his placement with LSE, and that it would have killed him that day whether he was hiking in the Texas heat, or sitting home in the AC watching TV.
Bullshit. But I will give you this. Wilderness programs would be wise to decline enrollment of kids on psych drugs, particularly if their policy is to withdraw kids from them. I don't know which one he was taking, but many carry the risk of death with sudden withdrawal. If you don't know this, how can you train others? If you know it and defered to Aspen/LSEs policy, you hold some responsibility.
What did you learn?
Where are you working now?
Do/would you train staff differently now?
What you guys don't see in the statistics while you are looking for ways to horribleize my job.
Most of us are well aware of the stats. Are you? 50 some kids have died in Wilderness "therapy". Sh0ould ANY form of therapy put kids at risk of death? Most of US think not. What's a shame is that parents don't really know the risks and stats either. They aren't making an informed decision when they hand their 'babies' over to imbeciles to force march them threw the wilds.
I'm sure it was shocking to realize you'd killed a kid. Imagine how his folks must feel. I can't help but wonder if the drug caused the heart defect and the withdrawal and stress of hiking in the heat and high humidity, put too much strain on his heart.
LSE helps many many many kids, usually when we get them we care more about them than they care about themselves. Not because it is Aspen, not because it is wilderness, but because of the people who live and work with these kids every day.
Yeh, yeh, yeh. The "Window of Loss" excuse. A few die, but soooo many are helped. You're here for one reason. To defend your profession.
Talk more about what you don't like about Aspen. That might be useful.
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I think the whole thing is sad and unfortunate and sympathy should be towards Matt’s family. Bottom line is the autopsy showed that Matt would have died regardless of where he was so there is no need to point fingers or try to make each other feel guilty. I am sure people feel bad enough in cases like this.
Lawsuits are all about differences of perspective and opinion in which a third party is sought out to make a decision based on evidence and past outcomes in an attempt to settle a dispute.
We need to wait for a decision on this.
“Anon LSE staff” was there, has first hand knowledge and can shed more light on what transpired than any of us can.
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I think the whole thing is sad and unfortunate and sympathy should be towards Matt’s family. Bottom line is the autopsy showed that Matt would have died regardless of where he was so there is no need to point fingers or try to make each other feel guilty. I am sure people feel bad enough in cases like this.
Lawsuits are all about differences of perspective and opinion in which a third party is sought out to make a decision based on evidence and past outcomes in an attempt to settle a dispute.
We need to wait for a decision on this.
“Anon LSE staff” was there, has first hand knowledge and can shed more light on what transpired than any of us can.
can you show me a copy of the autopsy report where it states the kid would have died that day regardless of the conditions under which he was operating? thanks in advance.
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A remarkable amount of kids who are 15 years old or thereabouts seem to have heart attacks at wilderness. This is a cause of death I had not ever heard of in teens before i came across this sordid excuse for an industry. The fist defence is always it seems "natural causes".
You hear of 55 year old fat guys who have enjoyed the good life for 30 years having a heart attack on the golf course and their Doctor mates saying that it was a natural cause. This is because they have been eating steak and drinking scotch and smoking for decades. How often do you hear of kids even fat ones "naturally" having a stroke or heart attack?
I dont think the staff in all cases are sadistic monsters but their idiocy appears to be astounding. i dont doubt most feel they are helping. But the idea that physical or psychological pain is good for anyone defies logic. i wonder if when the guidelines set the temp bar at 90 they take into account the humidity factor of Texas in the height of summer.
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I am sure people feel bad enough in cases like this.
That is not true. IF that were true programs would be shut down willingly and staff would not try and cover up their murderous behavior. How can you people live with yourself supporting an ideology that is designed to hurt kids and sometimes kill them? You have no shame.
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Lawsuits are all about differences of perspective and opinion in which a third party is sought out to make a decision based on evidence and past outcomes in an attempt to settle a dispute.
We need to wait for a decision on this.
Have you seen the police report? Apparently there are more facts than have been reported. I can't imagine his mother would fabricate the claim that:
the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.
Think she just pulled that out of thin air?
Why did LSE refuse to administer his bipolar medication?
Which drug was it? What are the warnings about sudden withdrawal for that drug?
Was his mother and/or pdoc informed that he would be denied his drug?
Did they sign a release to approve his withdrawal?
Who was supervising the withdrawal?
Was he vomitting before or after the "death rattle" was observed?
“Anon LSE staff” was there, has first hand knowledge and can shed more light on what transpired than any of us can.
Hardly. S/he was not there when it happened, according to his/her account of events, therefore is not a first-hand witness. S/he shook his hand that day and didn't arrive on the scene until after there was a medical emergency.
We piled into about 3 vehicles and drove like bats outta hell to get there.
Where are the other staff/teens who witnessed this first-hand? They would know better, and are most likely the ones who were interviewed by law enforcement/EMTs.
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Why would anyone who did not study medicine for 7 years be arrogant or retarded enough to unilaterally decide to take anyone off a medically prescribed drug? What kind of training or induction sessions would even give somebody the harebrained notion that this is acceptable or wise?
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Where are the other staff/teens who witnessed this first-hand? They would know better, and are most likely the ones who were interviewed by law enforcement/EMTs.
Exactly my point, we need to listen to everyones account of what happened, not just the negative reports.
I have no idea what happened up there, so we need to listen to all the people who were and not dismiss their stories. Since it is going to court there will be more focus on the details and events that lead up to the boys death that day.
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Oz Girl wrote:
A remarkable amount of kids who are 15 years old or thereabouts seem to have heart attacks at wilderness. This is a cause of death I had not ever heard of in teens before i came across this sordid excuse for an industry. The fist defence is always it seems "natural causes".
OzGirl, it is actually more common than people think. I believe you may view it as a problem unique to the wilderness programs because any negativity towards the industry seems to find its way into the fornits forum. What goes unreported here are all the children dieing from heart attacks outside the industry.
Here are a few examples:
http://www.gamespot.com/arcade/action/d ... 01687.html (http://www.gamespot.com/arcade/action/dancedancerevolution/news_6101687.html)
http://www.thestar.com/article/165392 (http://www.thestar.com/article/165392)
http://www.gothamist.com/2007/02/14/whats_worse_tha.php (http://www.gothamist.com/2007/02/14/whats_worse_tha.php)
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Operation Number: 822139
Operation Type: General Residential Operation
Operation/Caregiver Name: Lone Star Expeditions
Location Address: 1728 FOREST ROAD 5101
GROVETON, TX 75845
Mailing Address: 1728 Forest Road 5101
Groveton, TX 75845
Phone Number: 936-831-3133
County: TRINITY
Website Address: Http://www.Lonestarexpeditions.com (http://Http://www.Lonestarexpeditions.com)
Email Address: [email protected]
Administrator/Director Name: Michael Bednarz
Programatic Services: Child Care,Transitional Living,Therapeutic Camp
Type of Issuance: Full Permit
Treatment Services: Emotional Disorders,
Issuance Date: 6/27/2003
Conditions on Permit: No
Days of Operation: N/A
Total Capacity: 32
Licensed to Serve Ages: 13 - 17
Corrective Action: No
Adverse Action: No
Temporarily Closed: No
This operation is scheduled to be inspected every 6-9 months. [Curious- First inspection noted was April 2005]
For more information on this operation you may contact a local licensing office.
Violations from Aug 2005 State Inspection:
-One staff record had an expired CPR certification (CPR expired 12/8/04).
-One staff record reviewed had only two documented trainings for the year 2004. One of the trainings was for 1 hour, and the second training had no instructor listed, nor the duration of the training itself.
-The fire inspection expired on 3/8/05.
-Two staff records reviewed lacked the four clock hours of annual behavior intervention training. One staff record had CPI certification which expired 1/16/05, and another had CPI certification which expired 12/20/03.
-Two staff records reviewed had expired criminal and Central registry background checks.
Violations from May 2006 State Inspection:
-In comparing the active employee list to the current People List in CLASS, it was noted that one employee's background check had not been resubmitted within 24 months. It was corrected by the facility at the Inspection.
-Out of three staff member records reviewed, CPR training had expired for one of the direct care staff members. The facility stated it was an over-sight and that the staff member will up-date his CPR training as soon as possible.
-The annual Health Inspection has expired. The facility is scheduling an appointment with the local Health Department.
-The LP Gas Inspection expired on 4/5/06. The facility is making an appointment with the Railroad Commission to update their inspection.
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§748.303. When must I report and document a serious incident?
(1) A child dies while in your care.
(A)(ii) Report as soon as possible, but no later than 24 hours after the incident or occurrence.
Curious, There's no report listed on the TDFPS site on or around Sept 2004.
§748.681. What minimum qualifications must a caregiver meet?
DFPS Rules, 40 TAC, effective January 1, 2007
Each employee must meet the following qualifications before you can count him in the child/caregiver ratio:
(1) Be at least:
(A) 18 years old if all the children in the group the caregiver serves are under 13 years old; or
(B) 21 years old if at least one child in the group the caregiver serves is 13 years old or older;
(2) Have one of the following from a program recognized by the Texas Education Agency (TEA) or a public educational entity outside of Texas:
(A) High school diploma; or
(B) High school equivalency, such as a General Educational Development
(GED); and
(3) Be able to read, write, and communicate with co-workers, medical personnel, and other persons necessary to care for the child’s needs.
Re: Maximum Temperatures for hiking in Tx Wilderness programs.
§748.3843. What are the requirements for monitoring children’s safety and health during hiking or camping excursions?
DFPS Rules, 40 TAC, effective January 1, 2007
Caregivers participating in the hiking or camping activity must ensure that:
(1) Each child participating in the hiking or camping activity has the clothing, equipment, and provisions necessary to protect the child from the environment, including insect repellent and sunscreen;
(2) A child does not carry a load of more than 30% of the child’s body weight;
(3) Hiking does not exceed the physical capabilities of the weakest member of the group. If a participating child cannot or will not hike, the group must not continue unless other provisions have been made to care for the child;
(4) In temperatures above 80 degrees Fahrenheit:
(A) Children are offered a minimum of three quarts of drinking water per day;
(B) Electrolyte replacement is available to children at all times; and
(C) Other techniques are available to cool a participant, such as water to coat a child’s body or cold packs; and
(5) Potable water is available at each campsite. Caregivers must verify water cache location information before the group leaves camp each day, if applicable.
Better than some, but still lacking.
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Daniel Walker and Kimber Wilson were lucky they weren't in a wilderness program where symptoms are dismissed as faking and medical attention is denied until the imbeciles finally realize the kid is dying. Quick response saved Kimber and Daniel. Alex Corrance died doing what he loved, not being forced march through the wilderness.
Actually the majority of the 50some kids who have died in wilderness died due to preventable accidents, medical neglect, heat exhaustion, unlawful restraints, and more recently there's a case of West Nile from a tick or mosquito. Two growing risk factors are Psych drugs (many enlarge the heart) and obesity.
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Actually kids are much safer being in a wilderness program where they are exposed to staff who are trained to keep kids safe. If an emergency occurred like a heart attack I think any parent would rather have their child in the hands of trained people than sitting in some friends basement or driving around somewhere with people that have the response time and training of Ozzy Osborne.
I think it is fair to say (and I agree with you here, Deborah) most kids deaths are preventable and this applies whether the child is in a program or not. The key is where are they safest and surrounded the most by people who are trained to respond and keep them safe?
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to the who:
before you stated that the autopsy report showed this child would have died anyway, no matter where he was or under what conditions. i was waiting for you to provide the link to the source you got your information from, seemingly the autopsy report. can you post the link to the autopsy report you read to lead you to that conclusion?
also, can you post the links to the information about wilderness camps being safer than public schools? in my public school, we have a full time, licensed nurse there every day to attend to emergencies immediately. we also have several trained emt's as well.
didn't the place where this child died have several lapsed certificates, several non-certified employees without background checks and no nurse? this hardly seems like a safe environment. aren't most wildernessprograms also not licensed by the states they operate in and don't they employ relatively untrained and very inexperienced uncertified staff members? and these places aren't even monitored by the state.
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guest wrote:
before you stated that the autopsy report showed this child would have died anyway, no matter where he was or under what conditions. i was waiting for you to provide the link to the source you got your information from, seemingly the autopsy report. can you post the link to the autopsy report you read to lead you to that conclusion?
Here you go:
LSE Staff Wrote:
Matt's autopsy revealed that he died of an unknown heart defect that no one could have found prior to his placement with LSE, and that it would have killed him that day whether he was hiking in the Texas heat, or sitting home in the AC watching TV.
You could PM ” LSE Staff” I don’t think he will post it up on a forum, I wouldn’t., but you should check with him.
also, can you post the links to the information about wilderness camps being safer than public schools?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=252502#252502 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=252502#252502)
didn't the place where this child died have several lapsed certificates, several non-certified employees without background checks and no nurse? this hardly seems like a safe environment. aren't most wildernessprograms also not licensed by the states they operate in and don't they employ relatively untrained and very inexperienced uncertified staff members? and these places aren't even monitored by the state.
Not totally true, I believe there were some expired back ground checks. You indicated there was no nurse. Is one required? I didn’t see this requirement. If the child was lucky enough to collapse near the nurses office at school then you may have a point. But after school…my point is…. I don’t think Ozzy Osborne would effectively perform CPR or be the best person to be around my child if he/she had a heart attack. None of my children’s friends were trained or were certified to handle a heart attack when they were in high school.
In wilderness the children are with counselors 24/7. Public school is 5-6 hours?
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Actually kids are much safer being in a wilderness program where they are exposed to staff who are trained to keep kids safe. If an emergency occurred like a heart attack I think any parent would rather have their child in the hands of trained people than sitting in some friends basement or driving around somewhere with people that have the response time and training of Ozzy Osborne.
Compare the response time in wilderness as compared to the city/ civilization. Takes hours sometimes to reach their remote locations. In Ian August's case, the emergency chopper couldn't even land because it was so hot that day- over 100*.
The key is where are they safest and surrounded the most by people who are trained to respond and keep them safe?
Should all teens live in TBS bubbles. :roll: Clearly they're safer where EMTs can get to them in a timely fashion. EMTs who haven't been trained to ignore their EMT training and defer to the program's methods.
And stop presenting your stupid chart
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=252502#252502 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=252502#252502)
as evidence of anything, other than your deceptive, twisted bias.
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Compare the response time in wilderness as compared to the city/ civilization. Takes hours sometimes to reach their remote locations. In Ian August's case, the emergency chopper couldn't even land because it was so hot that day- over 100*.
Not arguing that… it is remote. But the kids are around trained counselors 24/7 . The child can be 5 minutes away from a heart surgeon in an air conditioned basement smoking crack, but if Ozzy doesn’t pick up the phone and call someone or is too high to notice, no help is coming, ever. I would rather my kids be in the dessert with trained professionals.
Should all teens live in TBS bubbles. Clearly they're safer where EMTs can get to them in a timely fashion. EMTs who haven't been trained to ignore their EMT training and defer to the program's methods.
No, I don’t think anyone would advocate that all kids go to a TBS, just like not everyone should admit themselves into a hospital, just to be safe. (although I do have a friend whos father has an EMT on call with a panic button and pays him for it!) I believe what parents need to look at are the options available to him/her when they have a child in crises and choose one that is safest for their child.
As a parent these are the things I tend to look at first.
If some schools truly train their EMT’s to ignore the kids then choose one that does not have this policy.
And stop presenting your stupid chart
It is data that is re-organized from caica and cafety etc. They aren’t numbers I came up with.
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If these kids in wilderness are around "trained" counselors 24/7 then someone needs to be in jail. They should have known the symptoms and the dangers of withdrawing a kid off of psych meds in a "wilderness" setting. Medical neglect through and through......
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If these kids in wilderness are around "trained" counselors 24/7 then someone needs to be in jail. They should have known the symptoms and the dangers of withdrawing a kid off of psych meds in a "wilderness" setting. Medical neglect through and through......
I agree, if that is the case, I believe there is a court action in progress which should bring all that out in the open. If the counselor’s didnt do their job then we will know. But lets not jump the gun and place blame prematurely.
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If these kids in wilderness are around "trained" counselors 24/7 then someone needs to be in jail. They should have known the symptoms and the dangers of withdrawing a kid off of psych meds in a "wilderness" setting. Medical neglect through and through......
The Who seems to confuse being over 18 with a highschool diploma and a basic first aid certificate with being a trained medical professional. I woudlnt have any qualms about sending a kid to summer camp but I would not kid myself that the staff are professional. The difference is the "professionals" in charge of the kids are not allowed to administer drugs or make absurd medical decisions like whether to take a kid off medication. In the event that somekind of mishap occurs where a kid requires something more than basic first aid the onsite nurse is called.
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The Who seems to confuse being over 18 with a highschool diploma and a basic first aid certificate with being a trained medical professional. I woudlnt have any qualms about sending a kid to summer camp but I would not kid myself that the staff are professional. The difference is the "professionals" in charge of the kids are not allowed to administer drugs or make absurd medical decisions like whether to take a kid off medication. In the event that somekind of mishap occurs where a kid requires something more than basic first aid the onsite nurse is called.
There is no confusion. What you stated is the basic requirements for a “Caregiver” in the state of Texas by law. This in no way solely reflects what “Lonestar” employs as employees.
Again You seem to be jumping the gun. Was the child taken off any medication? If so….Who took the child off of the medication? At what point was it done? Was a doctor consulted first? Did this contribute to his death?
In the event someone onsite cannot handle a medical situation then EMTs (or maybe nurse) are called and if they need further assistance then the child may need to be moved to a hospital and if the surgeon on duty isn’t qualified to perform the operation then a heart surgeon is called in etc. on and on. But if the child dies along the way why blame the counselors or EMTs? Or hospital or heart surgeon unless there is proof of neglect?
Instead of blaming the industry we need to look at the laws and regulations and determine the cause of death. Once the root cause is determined then we need to trace back thru protocol and try to determine who dropped the ball. This will lead to new laws or corrective action against the school or criminal action etc. but for any of us to sit here and point fingers is wrong and shows agenda.
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didn't the place where this child died have several lapsed certificates, several non-certified employees without background checks and no nurse? this hardly seems like a safe environment. aren't most wildernessprograms also not licensed by the states they operate in and don't they employ relatively untrained and very inexperienced uncertified staff members? and these places aren't even monitored by the state.
Not totally true, I believe there were some expired back ground checks.
Bless your heart Who. You just can't admit any fault with a program, or the industry, can you?
Violations from Aug 2005 State Inspection:
-One staff record had an expired CPR certification (CPR expired 12/8/04).
-One staff record reviewed had only two documented trainings for the year 2004. One of the trainings was for 1 hour, and the second training had no instructor listed, nor the duration of the training itself.
-The fire inspection expired on 3/8/05.
-Two staff records reviewed lacked the four clock hours of annual behavior intervention training. One staff record had CPI certification which expired 1/16/05, and another had CPI certification which expired 12/20/03.
-Two staff records reviewed had expired criminal and Central registry background checks.
Violations from May 2006 State Inspection:
-In comparing the active employee list to the current People List in CLASS, it was noted that one employee's background check had not been resubmitted within 24 months. It was corrected by the facility at the Inspection.
-Out of three staff member records reviewed, CPR training had expired for one of the direct care staff members. The facility stated it was an over-sight and that the staff member will up-date his CPR training as soon as possible.
-The annual Health Inspection has expired. The facility is scheduling an appointment with the local Health Department.
-The LP Gas Inspection expired
Re: Nurse
§748.569. Must I have health care professionals on staff or on contract if I provide services to children with primary medical needs?
DFPS Rules, 40 TAC, effective January 1, 2007
If you provide treatment services to 25 or more children with primary medical needs or if more than 30% of the children in your care receive treatment services for primary medical needs:
(1) You must have a licensed registered nurse on staff or on contract to respond to emergencies, questions, or other medical issues. A registered nurse must work during the day at the operation. A registered nurse in this position may be relieved on days off by a licensed registered nurse or by a licensed vocational nurse with appropriate supervision as defined in Tex. Occ. Code §301.353.
(2) You must arrange for:
(A) 24-hour availability of nursing, medical, and psychiatric services;
(B) Licensed nursing services, including 24-hour nursing direction or
supervision;
(C) Assistance with mobility;
(D) Routine adjustments or replacement of medical equipment; and
(E) As needed, caregiver supervision of children during the provision of medical and dental services.
(3) You must ensure that a physician on staff or on contract recommends and approves services at each initial diagnosis and at each review.
§748.573. What are the requirements for other nursing personnel for an operation that provides treatment services to 25 or more children with primary medical needs, or for an operation in which more than 30% of the children in care receive treatment services for primary medical needs? DFPS Rules, 40 TAC, effective January 1, 2007
Your nursing personnel must:
(1) Be awake and available at the operation on a 24-hour basis;
(2) Be under the direction of a registered nurse who is licensed to practice in Texas; and
(3) Include a licensed vocational nurse or registered nurse.
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Job Description - Exciting jobs in the outdoor wilderness!
If you love working for summer camps, this is even more exciting as it is a great way to learn the skills of working with adolescents in a unique therapeutic environment. Lone Star Expeditions is looking for enthusiastic people to be a role model and educator for teens in the Davy Crockett National Forest in East Texas . If you like the great outdoors and working with at-risk teens, then this is your opportunity to explore both. Work 8 days on and 6 days off with lots of overtime. This is a wonderful entry level position into a career working with teenagers. No experience necessary. Must be at least 21 years of age and be able to pass a physical, drug screen, and background check. (Prefer current CPR/First Aid Certification) You can find out more about this exciting opportunity by calling Melvin Cates at 936-831-3133. EOE
Not only is no qualification necessary but no experience is either. Unless i am mistaken do some universities in the US offer a degree in enthusiasm and role modelling?
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There is no confusion. What you stated is the basic requirements for a “Caregiver” in the state of Texas by law. This in no way solely reflects what “Lonestar” employs as employees.
And, how would you know this? Most of their bios contain nothing. The two with bios aren't very impressive.
Ali, Maz - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Austin, Brad - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Brad started working with Lone Star Expeditions in August of 2005. A native of Arkansas, he currently lives in Fort Worth, TX. Brad loves to play various sports and is an avid football & baseball fan, goes hunting, plays golf, loves to travel, and enjoys spending time with his family.
Barnes, Sara - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Batdorf, Ann - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Crawford, Eva - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Fugette, Joshua - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Gleason, Haley - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Morris, Leah - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Pylant, Emily - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Jara, Euan - Wilderness Field Instructor II
Martin, Candi - Wilderness Field Instructor II
Page, Lethia - Wilderness Field Instructor III - Senior
Scroggins, John - Wilderness Field Instructor III - Master
Cuevas, Mike - Wilderness Field Instructor III - Head
Ripoli, Dominic - Field Instructor III - Head
Adams, Chris - Wilderness/Field Instructor IV - Master
Ballew, Olin - Wilderness Field Instructor IV - Master
Olin began working with Lone Star Expeditions in June of 2004. He enjoys renovating & repairing motorcycles, woodland survival skills, & is intrigued by depth of character & people‘s imaginations.
http://www.parentcheckin.com/staff_pict ... sp?progid= (http://www.parentcheckin.com/staff_pictures_external.asp?progid=){89EBFCD4-5A20-45FB-B717-C9C6768365D3}#
Again You seem to be jumping the gun. Was the child taken off any medication? If so….Who took the child off of the medication?
You're just going to completely ignore the mother's complaint?
But if the child dies along the way why blame the counselors or EMTs?
Depends on the circumstances m'dear. And in most cases time was lost due to the so-called counselors letting the kid sit and die because they erroneously assumed s/he was faking. Ian August even passed Skyline Journey's sophisticated field test for flushin out fakers. Raise their arm and drop it in/near their face. If they flench, they're fakin. He was left to bake in the sun and shortly thereafter died, while the imbecile in charge of his well-being hid behind a bush waiting to catch Ian in the act.
Yeh, these are the type idiots I'd want my kid in the blazing/freezing desert with. I put more trust in "Ozzy". He doesn't have an agenda and most reasonably intellegent people know how to dial 911, even when they're stoned.
Instead of blaming the industry we need to look at the laws and regulations and determine the cause of death. Once the root cause is determined then we need to trace back thru protocol and try to determine who dropped the ball. This will lead to new laws or corrective action against the school or criminal action etc. but for any of us to sit here and point fingers is wrong and shows agenda.
Who specifically are you fingering for pointing fingers, Who? This is precisely what we are doing- lookinig at laws and regulations. WE will not determine 'cause of death', that's the coroner's job. And a few comments have been made about psych drug withdrawal, based on the mother's claim that staff denied him his biopolar drugs and that he lay vomitting for 15 minutes before anything was done for him. I'm goin with the mom's claim. I just don't believe she'd concoct such a story if it weren't true.
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Oz Girl, you think that is bad. These are the qualifications of people they hire at a place where they actually do heart surgery:
Tech Asst
MRI at Long Beach Memorial Medical Center
Per Diem. Six months experience in a Radiology department clerical section. Medical terminology a plus. Technical skills to include basic keyboard operation, operating O2 tanks, and operating patient beds. Ability to communicate effectively with others and demonstrate problem solving ability. Prepares, processes, and files film jackets according to numerical filing system. Current BLS.
Job Code: UO6351
Resource Central Supply Tech
Central Services * Supplie at Long Beach Memorial Medical Center
Resource. High school diploma or equivalent. 1 to 3 years experience in Central Supply in an acute hospital setting preferred. Must be motivated and able to work with little to no supervision, able to stand for most of 8 hours, and able to lift up to 25 pounds. Basic product knowledge, distribution/par level cart techniques and warehousing procedures preferred.
Job Code: UO6390
Resource SPD Technician I Sterile Processing at Long Beach Memorial Medical Center
Resource. High school graduate. 1 to 3 years previous hospital Central Service experience. Basic knowledge of aseptic and sterile processing techniques, sterilization, sterile storage, equipment disinfection, and preparation of instrument trays. Prolonged standing, and lifting up to 30lbs. Certification preferred.
No one needs a degree at all.!! and they perform heart surgery at this place!!
http://www.memorialcare.org/apps/jobs/p ... search.cfm (http://www.memorialcare.org/apps/jobs/process_job_search.cfm)
Based on the partial information I posted the kids are better off at the wilderness program than a hospital.
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And, how would you know this? Most of their bios contain nothing. The two with bios aren't very impressive.
Ali, Maz - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Austin, Brad - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Brad started working with Lone Star Expeditions in August of 2005. A native of Arkansas, he currently lives in Fort Worth, TX. Brad loves to play various sports and is an avid football & baseball fan, goes hunting, plays golf, loves to travel, and enjoys spending time with his family.
Barnes, Sara - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Batdorf, Ann - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Crawford, Eva - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Fugette, Joshua - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Gleason, Haley - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Morris, Leah - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Pylant, Emily - Wilderness Field Instructor I
Jara, Euan - Wilderness Field Instructor II
Martin, Candi - Wilderness Field Instructor II
Page, Lethia - Wilderness Field Instructor III - Senior
Scroggins, John - Wilderness Field Instructor III - Master
Cuevas, Mike - Wilderness Field Instructor III - Head
Ripoli, Dominic - Field Instructor III - Head
Adams, Chris - Wilderness/Field Instructor IV - Master
Ballew, Olin - Wilderness Field Instructor IV - Master
Olin began working with Lone Star Expeditions in June of 2004. He enjoys renovating & repairing motorcycles, woodland survival skills, & is intrigued by depth of character & people‘s imaginations.
http://www.parentcheckin.com/staff_pict ... sp?progid= (http://www.parentcheckin.com/staff_pictures_external.asp?progid=){89EBFCD4-5A20-45FB-B717-C9C6768365D3}#
.[/quote]
I I dunno, A love of sport and motorbikes should more than equip a person to work with young people with a wide variety of troubles on a 24/7 basis. Besides this Mr Ballew is also intruiged by depth of Character and imagination. Who wouldnt view this as an adequate replacement for real credentials? ::roflmao::
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And, how would you know this? Most of their bios contain nothing. The two with bios aren't very impressive.
Exactly my point, we dont, based off their web site. They could all be doctors or a week away from their dissertation.
We need to base our positions on facts not speculation.
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Do some googling and tell me if you find the two employees that have criminal records. Took me about 2 minutes.
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Here are 6 people I checked out:
Person 1: Masters degree in Business Administration from the University of Utah, a Masters degree in Recreation from George Williams College, and a Bachelors degree in Biological Science from Colorado State University
Person 2: He is a Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, a Certified Trauma Resolution Therapist, and has a degree in Substance Abuse.
Person 3: Master’s degree in Counseling from Ball State University, IN
Person 4: Master’s degree in Counselor Education,
Person 5: Master of Arts in Community Counseling.
Person 6: Bachelor of Social Work from Stephen F. Austin State University ……interned at the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services in the foster and adoption department and served her senior internship at Nacogdoches Memorial Hospital
I'll keep looking
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funny that the only staff the who listed have no names. also, you claimed earlier that this kid "would have died anyway" regardless of his treatment or medications. i'm still waiting for you to post the basis of this statement. please post the link to where you got this information.
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What are the names of these Mystery people and which specific programs do they work for. Can you tell us which specific skills an MBA would be able to bring to working with troubled youngsters who do not always wish to be counselled? Cause as an accountant I cant think of how any business subjects i studied would be transferable to such an industry
Are you ok with the fact that programs advertise for high school grads with no experience necessary. Wouldnt this mean that such people would be more likely to go for the job as most graduates would want to earn more than 10 bucks an hour. It is the case for lonestar if the field instructors on their website are an indicator
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funny that the only staff the who listed have no names. also, you claimed earlier that this kid "would have died anyway" regardless of his treatment or medications. i'm still waiting for you to post the basis of this statement. please post the link to where you got this information.
I don’t believe in posting peoples names unless it is necessary. They can be found on LSE web site or I can PM you.
I did respond to you earlier, but it was along with a lot of other stuff so you might have missed it, sorry about that. The Autopsy information came from "LSE Counselor". I dont think he will post the report on-line (I wouldn’t personally) but you could ask him to pont you in the right direction. Here is the quote and link I referred to.
Matt's autopsy revealed that he died of an unknown heart defect that no one could have found prior to his placement with LSE, and that it would have killed him that day whether he was hiking in the Texas heat, or sitting home in the AC watching TV.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=254044#254044 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=254044#254044)
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oh, i see, you're basing your ridiculous claim of knowledge based on a second hand hearsay item from a nonidentified poster.
yes, that's very solid evidence. :roll:
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oh, i see, you're basing your ridiculous claim of knowledge based on a second hand hearsay item from a nonidentified poster.
yes, that's very solid evidence. :roll:
So what you are saying is we cant believe anyone here on fornits unless they give their real name and provide documented evidence.
Does this apply to everyone? People who claim to be hurt by the industry? Those who claim to be helped by the industry? Should we insist everyone show documented evidence of their accounts?
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you stated this as if it were a fact, not as the opinion of someone who admittedly was not there. that's all i'm saying. you take second hand hearsay from an anonymous poster and present it as rock-solid fact. that's all i'm saying. that you specifically cannot be trusted in your statements because your sources are just anonymous internet posters which you then quote as "evidence" for this or that. we can all read and see that the person you're quoting as having a copy of the autopsy report (a claim even they didn't make) wasn't there and is relying on someone else's account of his or her perception. so you take this hearsay based on hearsay and call it "fact" - a phenomenon which you repeat over and over here.
all i'm saying, again, is that you, the who, are not a credible source of anything unless you have provided direct links to source documents, otherwise you can't be believed. it's really that simple.
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What are the names of these Mystery people and which specific programs do they work for.
I will pm them if you like. They are listed on the website
Can you tell us which specific skills an MBA would be able to bring to working with troubled youngsters who do not always wish to be counselled? Cause as an accountant I cant think of how any business subjects i studied would be transferable to such an industry
A business is comprised of many people with many talents. Not every employee that works for ford knows how to assemble a car. A person with and MBA,and also a background in recreation gives the person the well rounded education need to lead others
Are you ok with the fact that programs advertise for high school grads with no experience necessary. Wouldnt this mean that such people would be more likely to go for the job as most graduates would want to earn more than 10 bucks an hour. It is the case for lonestar if the field instructors on their website are an indicator
I have no issue with that. They have Field instructors and Head instructors, clinical team etc. working together, each has their specific role. As a society we don’t have expectations that everyone be degreed, even in the better hospitals, as I pointed out earlier. They have people they pay 10/hr and others they may pay 50/hr and many in between.
From a parents perspective I would like to see at least one person with each group that is trained in CPR, first aid etc. and has experience in wilderness (has a few years under their belt)
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Who posted credentials of the Dir, Adm Coordinator and Therapists from LSEs website. Distracting from the discussion regarding the staff who are in the field with the kids everyday and their lack of credentials.
Didn't see any Doctorate Level Therapists as mentioned on the website.
Person 1: Masters degree in Business Administration from the University of Utah, a Masters degree in Recreation from George Williams College, and a Bachelors degree in Biological Science from Colorado State University
Bednarz, Michael, MS, MBA, LCCA Executive Director
Person 2: He is a Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, a Certified Trauma Resolution Therapist, and has a degree in Substance Abuse.
Courtney, John, LCDC - Substance Abuse Counselor
Person 3: Master’s degree in Counseling from Ball State University, IN
Cacialli, Melissa, MA, LPCI - Wilderness Therapist
Person 4: Master’s degree in Counselor Education,
Robertson, Sarah, MA, LPC - Licensed Therapist
Person 5: Master of Arts in Community Counseling.
Cates, Melvin, MA - Field Manager
Person 6: Bachelor of Social Work from Stephen F. Austin State University ……interned at the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services in the foster and adoption department and served her senior internship at Nacogdoches Memorial Hospital
Rodgers, Nicole - Admissions Coordinator
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guest wrote:
you stated this as if it were a fact, not as the opinion of someone who admittedly was not there. that's all i'm saying. you take second hand hearsay from an anonymous poster and present it as rock-solid fact.
This was not LSE Counselors opinion, read it again.
that's all i'm saying. that you specifically cannot be trusted in your statements because your sources are just anonymous internet posters which you then quote as "evidence" for this or that.
So if a person comes onto fornits and claims they were abused in a program we cant take that as fact? We can only refer to it as opinion is what you are saying. I don’t think this is right we need to believe peoples accounts and claims and be able to refer to them in a discussion as fact, shouldn’t we? It would be unfair to all these kids that come on here to dismiss their claims and stories.
we can all read and see that the person you're quoting as having a copy of the autopsy report (a claim even they didn't make) wasn't there and is relying on someone else's account of his or her perception. so you take this hearsay based on hearsay and call it "fact" - a phenomenon which you repeat over and over here.
I was asked to provide a copy and I redirected them back to LSE counselor
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there's a big distinction and you do yourself a disservice not to note it. do you understand the differences between first-and accounts and second or thirs-hand accounts?
if someone comes on here and says "i was abused at such and such a place by so and so" that is first-hand (credibility of the poster notwithstanding).
what you say is "so and so heard from so and so that so and so was abused" - big difference.
credibility of the poster does come into account though. and when you are posting is one of those times. all you do is put the best possible industry spin on every event and call it "fact". well, anyone who reads what you write knows you have a very narrow agenda, that is, to advertise programs, for whatever reason I can't say. but, nonetheless, that's what you're here to do, so your credibility is very, very low to start with, notwithstanding the many factual errors you post.
once more, all i'm saying is, all things considered, from an objective viewpoint, you are not a credible poster and anyone who reads what you write can see that.
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Who posted credentials of the Dir, Adm Coordinator and Therapists from LSEs website. Distracting from the discussion regarding the staff who are in the field with the kids everyday and their lack of credentials.
Didn't see any Doctorate Level Therapists as mentioned on the website.
Person 1: Masters degree in Business Administration from the University of Utah, a Masters degree in Recreation from George Williams College, and a Bachelors degree in Biological Science from Colorado State University
Bednarz, Michael, MS, MBA, LCCA Executive Director
Person 2: He is a Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor, a Certified Trauma Resolution Therapist, and has a degree in Substance Abuse.
Courtney, John, LCDC - Substance Abuse Counselor
Person 3: Master’s degree in Counseling from Ball State University, IN
Cacialli, Melissa, MA, LPCI - Wilderness Therapist
Person 4: Master’s degree in Counselor Education,
Robertson, Sarah, MA, LPC - Licensed Therapist
Person 5: Master of Arts in Community Counseling.
Cates, Melvin, MA - Field Manager
Person 6: Bachelor of Social Work from Stephen F. Austin State University ……interned at the Texas Department of Protective and Regulatory Services in the foster and adoption department and served her senior internship at Nacogdoches Memorial Hospital
Rodgers, Nicole - Admissions Coordinator
I see. @The Who: Why would you post these people's credentials and represent them as the ones who are going to be with someone's children day in and day out?
You know full well that these are office staff who would not be out in the woods with children. People are talking about the ones that LSE is advertising to hire: "no experience" and "no degree" required. heck, they say it themselves, but you try to deny it. Amazing how many times you will destroy your own believability to try to get a "gotcha!" on someone. Very childish and very diningenuous. Just one of the reasons why nobody (even die hard program supporters) puts any stock in your responses.
Why, when you give the "program story" are there all highly educated professionals in place, but when you tell the "hospital story" you only say that there are unskilled workers there and forget to mention the highly qualified doctors and nurses?
It seems like you're constantly dissembling to make a point you're fishing for, but you keep getting caught representing things other than the facts. It just makes you, and program supporters in general, look really bad. At least the run-of-the-mill program supporters don't have to make things up; they just tell their stories. You, you're a different animal - one with a financial stake in the businesses you promote, and it shows.
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credibility of the poster does come into account though. and when you are posting is one of those times. all you do is put the best possible industry spin on every event and call it "fact". well, anyone who reads what you write knows you have a very narrow agenda, that is, to advertise programs, for whatever reason I can't say. but, nonetheless, that's what you're here to do, so your credibility is very, very low to start with, notwithstanding the many factual errors you post.
Credibility of the poster does come into play. I think everyone that comes on here knows each has a position. I try to bring balance to the dialog by pointing out the pieces that are left out. How many times have you seen a new thread started discussing improvements made within the industry or a school who hires a new director who is clinical and more fact based. What you typically see here is the dirty laundry, mistakes that are made which should be brought out. But in order to see the entire picture you need different perspectives.
LSE Counselor gave one perspective and brought to the table what he knew and others piped in with comments like:
“Ian August even passed Skyline Journey's sophisticated field test for flushin out fakers. Raise their arm and drop it in/near their face. If they flench, they're fakin. He was left to bake in the sun and shortly thereafter died, while the imbecile in charge of his well-being hid behind a bush waiting to catch Ian in the act.
I didn’t see a credible source or a link to back this up, either. Is this fact? Someone’s opinion? Sarcasm?
You see me as not credible because I challenge the facts that are brought to the discussion. The bottom line is none of us know what went on when this child died except the people that were there and the reports that came from them.
When LSE Counselor gave his account he was meet with:
“Talk more about what you don't like about Aspen. That might be useful.”
Because some people here on fornits don’t want to hear the whole truth, just the small parts that help them to justify painting the entire industry as evil.
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Who do you believe Elvis to still be alive?
Im not being a jackass I'm using it to make a point.
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Who do you believe Elvis to still be alive?
Im not being a jackass I'm using it to make a point.
No, but it is fun watching all these people dress up and jump out of airplanes dressed like him. Whats up with that?
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Is it possible he is still alive?
What gives creedence to the claim that he is alive from the people who make it.
Creedence not credibility, I'm not looking for evidence.
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What gives creedence to the claim that he is alive from the people who make it.
They are big fans of Elvis, they don’t really believe it themselves, but they find it fun to keep him alive in their minds. People know this so they capitalize on it by dressing up like him and getting paid to entertain others.
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What gives creedence to the claim that he is alive from the people who make it.
They are big fans of Elvis, they don’t really believe it themselves, but they find it fun to keep him alive in their minds. People know this so they capitalize on it by dressing up like him and getting paid to entertain others.
Just like you and Aspen. You're an Aspen wannabe!
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Credibility of the poster does come into play. I think everyone that comes on here knows each has a position. I try to bring balance to the dialog by pointing out the pieces that are left out.
You haven't brought anything relevant to this discussion, except to quote an anonymous poster claiming to be an ex staff. Could just as well be someone in the PR dept at Aspen, sitting right next to you.
What you typically see here is the dirty laundry, mistakes that are made which should be brought out.
Reality check. Notice where you are. Is this ST, or any other program forum? No, it's a survivor forum. In actuality, Fornits offers a different perspective, and fills in the missing pieces, so parents can see the entire picture. There's plenty of industry propoganda on the internet from discrete misrepresentation to outright lies. This is one of a few places where you'll find the dirty laundry that they are not required to divulge to prospective clients.
LSE Counselor gave one perspective and brought to the table what he knew and others piped in with comments like:
“Ian August even passed Skyline Journey's sophisticated field test for flushin out fakers. Raise their arm and drop it in/near their face. If they flench, they're fakin. He was left to bake in the sun and shortly thereafter died, while the imbecile in charge of his well-being hid behind a bush waiting to catch Ian in the act.
This is a good example of why your idiotic attempts to derail threads gets split. You take things out of context, misquote people, throw in ignorant and irrelavent analogies and information- to distract from the discussion.
I was responding to your question, not the alleged LSE staff:
But if the child dies along the way why blame the counselors or EMTs?
And my response was appropriate response for the question YOU asked:
Depends on the circumstances m'dear. And in most cases time was lost due to the so-called counselors letting the kid sit and die because they erroneously assumed s/he was faking. Ian August even passed Skyline Journey's sophisticated field test for flushin out fakers. Raise their arm and drop it in/near their face. If they flench, they're fakin. He was left to bake in the sun and shortly thereafter died, while the imbecile in charge of his well-being hid behind a bush waiting to catch Ian in the act.
Yeh, these are the type idiots I'd want my kid in the blazing/freezing desert with. I put more trust in "Ozzy". He doesn't have an agenda and most reasonably intellegent people know how to dial 911, even when they're stoned.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... c&start=30 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20962&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30)
Staff should err on the side of caution. And waiting around to flush them out, takes valuable time that could've saved thier lives.
I didn’t see a credible source or a link to back this up, either. Is this fact? Someone’s opinion? Sarcasm?
Fact. You can read about the field test and the sadistic and neglectful treatment of Ian here:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 136#235136 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=235136#235136)
When LSE Counselor gave his account he was meet with:
“Talk more about what you don't like about Aspen. That might be useful.”
And, how is that not valid? Why wouldn't that be part of the big picture?
I'd still like to hear what s/he didn't like about Aspen, and why s/he left, if s/he is who s/he says s/he is.
Because some people here on fornits don’t want to hear the whole truth, just the small parts that help them to justify painting the entire industry as evil.
You sh0uld just be thankful that you and other industry advocates are allowed on this site. Always bitching because you can't control everything. Get over it. This ain't program.
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"Last Word Larry" (The Who) just HAS to get the last word in. This is his trolling style. If he had his way, every topic on the board would end with his post. Typical control freak behavior. This is why every thread he gets involved in becomes a giant waste of space and time...
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Fact. You can read about the field test and the sadistic and neglectful treatment of Ian here:
I traced it back and it is based on interviews of anonymous people or “Guests” as we call them here. Like you said they could be sitting right next to you, we don’t know. LSE Counselor is just as credible.
You sh0uld just be thankful that you and other industry advocates are allowed on this site. Always bitching because you can't control everything. Get over it. This ain't program.
So if you had your way people would have to go thru a special screening and training to be able to post here? Maybe a 2 day seminar to weed out the malcontents? I didn’t see any complaints, just answering a question posed to me. Never asked for any control just pointing out my position and function is here. If you don’t want people disagreeing with you why don’t you start a forum like TSW. Then you can delete the posts you don’t like and keep your own point of view at the forefront.
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"Last Word Larry" (The Who) just HAS to get the last word in. This is his trolling style. If he had his way, every topic on the board would end with his post. Typical control freak behavior. This is why every thread he gets involved in becomes a giant waste of space and time...
i told ya so! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Fact. You can read about the field test and the sadistic and neglectful treatment of Ian here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 136#235136 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=235136#235136)
I traced it back and it is based on interviews of anonymous people or “Guests” as we call them here. Like you said they could be sitting right next to you, we don’t know. LSE Counselor is just as credible.
Blatant lie. This article is based on dozens of interviews in Oklahoma, Texas and Utah. Scenes and dialogue about the events leading to Ian August's death are taken from a transcript of the 9-1-1 call to the Millard County Sheriff's Office; a timeline constructed by Skyline Journey; a transcript of the preliminary hearing in Utah v. Mark Wardle, Leigh Hale and WOW Developments; Skyline Journey daily progress reports kept up to July 13, 2002; witness statements; incident reports filed by the Millard County Sheriff's Office; and a journal kept by Ian August.
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The surprising thing about Ian August's death is not that he died but that he was the only one. What did they expect would happen when they forced kids to hike through tough terrain in such high
temperatures? I was shocked that they would entertain such a ridiculous notion but this is what happens when the on the ground staff have absolutely no education in the area because they are not required to! The fact that the on the gruond staff are paid so shittily so that anyone with 1/2 a brain would not want to take the job speaks volumes about the mentality of the industry.
What it would say to me if i were a parent was that while i am willing to pay 15000 for Aspen to help my kid, the company does not see that it is worth hriing professionals to work with the kid in a daily basis. Who you recon it would be ok with you to put highschool educated staff directly in charge of your child as long as htey have good 1st aid skills. Apparently they do not even have this though. The "Aspen staffer" who posted here said they thought the boy was joking. well it seems they often do! Perhaps the 1st aid training should include an emphasis on eternal vigilance. But as this is at odds with the tough love model I dont hold my breath.
Nature sure taught these kids a lesson about "natural consequences"
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I can guarantee that corporate got involved immediately and told LSE that they didn’t want to see anything but “Asses and elbows” until the root cause was determined and the appropriate corrective action was put in place so that this would never happen again.
I am sure many changes have taken place to their process fairly quickly once they determined the root cause of Ians death, whether it was attributed to the heat, stopping of medication, lack of training, preexisting condition or a combination of all of them. No corporation is going to allow kids to die and just say “Oh, well it wasn’t our fault, sue me”.
From a business perspective I am sure they have made every effort to resolve this issue.
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From a business perspective I am sure they have made every effort to resolve this issue.
This is in a nutshell the probelm with a for profit industry of this nature. A company is always first and foremost accountable to the shareholders. Otherwise there is no point. It seems also that many places clean up their act after the fact. This simply is not good enough.
The problem is with the whole philosophy behind it. subjecting someone to in the case of wilderness 6 weeks or so of physical and emotional discomfort will do one of 2 things. it will break them and create a "perfect kid" or it will incite rebellion. When it does this it becomes a vicious circle because the kid wont go along without penalty. (even if the penalty is no help when needed as opposed to physical force) This means staff decide they "wont give in" which then becomes a recepie for disaster. Usually if a kid is continuously faking to go home it is likely to be because they are horribly miserable. The staff are going to assume they are faking at all times so that when they become genuinely ill staff are too busy questioning the nefarious motives of a miserable kid to get help. What a fabulously functional and helpful environment for a difficult and pained youngster! How loving their view of adults must become!
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Oz Girl wrote:
This is in a nutshell the probelm with a for profit industry of this nature. A company is always first and foremost accountable to the shareholders. Otherwise there is no point. It seems also that many places clean up their act after the fact. This simply is not good enough.
I agree 100%, look at the auto industry. They have been trailing the Asian market for decades and are playing catch-up. They didn’t learn their lesson on emissions and labor costs and now find themselves years behind the Asians again on hybrid cars.
Companies need to be more proactive instead of reacting to problems as they occur and fixing things after it is too late.
Usually if a kid is continuously faking to go home it is likely to be because they are horribly miserable. The staff are going to assume they are faking at all times so that when they become genuinely ill staff are too busy questioning the nefarious motives of a miserable kid to get help.
This is one of the areas where the mindset needs to change. Whether thru training or process because I agree, if a kid cries wolf long enough even the best of people are going to turn a deaf ear or react just slow enough to allow a problem to manifest or get out of hand. Not sure what the answer is but I am sure it is being looked at.
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Whether thru training or process because I agree, if a kid cries wolf long enough even the best of people are going to turn a deaf ear or react just slow enough to allow a problem to manifest or get out of hand.
Who are you "agreeing" with? No one said that.
And No, it's not being looked at, and won't be until program owners/staff start serving prison time for denying kids basic needs and medical attention. Until the window of loss is closed.
What you refuse to acknowledge is that they are trained, in the program's methods. As in the case of Ian August, the head staff was an EMT. But, she chose to defer to the programs method for flushing out fakers rather than professionally access his physical condition and act appropriately.
In Aaron Bacon's case, they still assumed he was faking when he was shitting himself and couldn't stand erect.
Staff let Gina Score lay on the ground 3 hours, dying, because they thought she was faking.
As with Michelle Sutton who was vomitting most of the water she drank.
I could go on, time doesn't allow.
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the thing is.. program staff really dont think kids are faking ..they know something is wrong with them. What they think is that whatever is wrong with them isnt bad enough to kill them. They let the children suffer permanent disabliity, and violating body breakdown becasue that is PART of the breaking process.
Afterall, that way the kid is weaker, more supple, more completely dominated and humiliated -more easy to exploit.The kid accepts his new sub human place in life by realizing that he is undeservng of medical attention like a cheap slave or an abused unloved dog
The only problem for them occurs when the kid does die and they deal with negitive attention or maybe ...charges agasint them!!(so unfari).
This is where their belief in natural causes bs comes into play..after all they made 1000 other kids sick in the same fashion and they pulled through! What they dont understand, becasue they are uneducated morons or willfully complicit authority figures, is that the law of average, means that if you say infect 1000
kids with Barynatis only 5 of them will die, the rest will pull thourgh however wounded. However that does not mean that the 5 that did die, died of natural causes. No, child murderers, they died becasue you shot them up with Barynatis
Likewise, without going into the grautious abuse of denying meds or not listeing when a kid say they are sick, when forcing kids to march, a child dying is murder.
When you "force" a group of people to engage in heavy marching, some of them are going to die. Inevitably someone will be pushed past their limit and perish.and when that happens..its murder plain and simple.
NO WHERE ELSE IN THE WOLD ARE PEOPLE FOCED TO MARCH EXCEPT PEOPLES INVOLVED IN EXPLUSION FROM COMMUNITIES. The jews dealt with it, the native americans dealt with it. The perversity and deceptiveness invlved in selling kidnapping and the reenaction of prgrom as therapy is mind boggling
And even when the kid does die. Unless he is writing a journal (they dont burn) or if its on video and they have a dedicated parent willing to do whatever it takes to get charges filed, they'll still get away with it. But you know that wont go on forever ..all it takes is one decent D.A. A reform minded fed....tic toc tic toc
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I can guarantee that corporate got involved immediately and told LSE that they didn’t want to see anything but “Asses and elbows” until the root cause was determined and the appropriate corrective action was put in place so that this would never happen again.
I am sure many changes have taken place to their process fairly quickly once they determined the root cause of Ians death, whether it was attributed to the heat, stopping of medication, lack of training, preexisting condition or a combination of all of them. No corporation is going to allow kids to die and just say “Oh, well it wasn’t
our fault, sue me”.
From a business perspective I am sure they have made every effort to resolve this issue.
It's the lawsuit, the bad press(resulting in loss money) that drives pseudo-change that only goes skin deep(name/state change or some such) not the fact that kids die. If they truly cared about the kids they wouldn't be so quick to cover their asses with lame excuses like "rare heart defect".
Lets stroll through ISAC's program-related death's page- Giovanni Aletriz
February 4, 2006
16 year-old Giovanni Aletriz died after being restrained at Summit Quest in Pennsylvania.
The coroner ruled that Giovanni had an enlarged heart and died from "natural" causes.
However, the state Department of Public Welfare placed Summit Quest on a six-month provisional license after an investigation revealed significant health and safety concerns for the children at the facility.
- James White
December 12, 2005
James White, age 17, also died at Summit Quest in Pennsylvania.
The coroner ruled that James, like Giovanni, had an enlarged heart and died from "natural" causes.
- Willie Durden
October 13, 2005
Willie Durden, age 17, died at the Cypress Creek Juvenile Offender Corrections Center in Citrus County, Florida.
Willie had no pulse when guards found him in his cell.
They did not call for help right away because they thought he was "faking."
An autopsy showed Willie had an enlarged heart.
- Linda Harris
September 18, 2005
Linda Harris, age 12, died while being forcibly taken to a "time out" room at Chad Youth Enhancement Center in Tennessee.
The coroner attributed Linda's death to a heart attack.
Witnesses have said that Linda was "improperly restrained" at the time of her death.
Wow four heart problems three enlarged two at the same facility.... We should also remember that in the Anderson case the coroner originally said that Anderson died of a natural cause-Sickle Cell Anemia. However a second coroner ruled his death a homicide. The only reason why Anderson got looked over twice was because the video taped showed his murders and they weren't demon blood cells.
To have two kids die at the same program from this "heart condition" in less then 3 months smells of pure bullshit. The record of the industry not withstanding it's safe to assume that they care more for the pocketbook then the kid and ass covering certainly protects the pocketbook but lets two kids die in less then 3 months.
Also, Deborah hit it right on the head in regard to the medically trained staff. How can a medically trained staff turn off that medical training during the everyday abuse and then turn it on during "real emergencies"?
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I think you have have misinterpreted my post Who. i did not say that if a kid cries wolf for long enough they will eventually be hurt. What i said was that some kids probably do exaggerate symptoms because they are desperately miserable. The focus of the on the ground staff who are often young and clueless on catching kids out or seeing how far they can push them as opposed to helping them. So the miserable deteriorate and the ill dont get help. They die of "natural causes"
I am sure anyone who has worked with kids of any age has come across "sick" as opposed to medically ill from time to time. Compassionate, smart experienced aduls dont accuse either of these kids of being fakers. They swiftly and throughly check all kids, call someone with greater expertise if in any doubt and if it is a basic first aid matter tend to it themselves.
In the event that the kids does not need medical treatment what they usually need is a bit of attention and kindness rather than being forced to push themselves. This is often what has lead to the meltdown in the first place! How many first years at normal boarding school go to the infirmary teary and home sick? or kids at summer camps develop "tummy aches" just after getting a letter from mum? You rarely hear the matron tell them they are liars who need to get over it but this is the prevalent attitude of an industry which claims on almost every website that it takes manipulative kids!
perhaps if the wilderness industry took only kids who volunteered, was non profit and employed professionals who did not view emotional pain or substance abuse as moral failure the wilderness side of this industry would do some good. Afterall some troubled kids do want help. But i cant think of any sane person who wants to be uncomforable, exhausted and isolated from any comforts in a bid to "get better"
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Whether thru training or process because I agree, if a kid cries wolf long enough even the best of people are going to turn a deaf ear or react just slow enough to allow a problem to manifest or get out of hand.
Who are you "agreeing" with? No one said that.
And No, it's not being looked at, and won't be until program owners/staff start serving prison time for denying kids basic needs and medical attention. Until the window of loss is closed.
What you refuse to acknowledge is that they are trained, in the program's methods. As in the case of Ian August, the head staff was an EMT. But, she chose to defer to the programs method for flushing out fakers rather than professionally access his physical condition and act appropriately.
In Aaron Bacon's case, they still assumed he was faking when he was shitting himself and couldn't stand erect.
Staff let Gina Score lay on the ground 3 hours, dying, because they thought she was faking.
As with Michelle Sutton who was vomitting most of the water she drank.
I could go on, time doesn't allow.
Is this another assumption? your opinion? or do you have a link to support that nothing is being worked on.
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Oz Girl wrote:
…….. What i said was that some kids probably do exaggerate symptoms because they are desperately miserable. The focus of the on the ground staff who are often young and clueless on catching kids out or seeing how far they can push them as opposed to helping them. So the miserable deteriorate and the ill dont get help………….
I think what you pointed out is key and points to a training issue. If they could get more mature and better trained personnel I think it would go a long way in preventing incidences like Ian’s.
perhaps if the wilderness industry took only kids who volunteered, was non profit and employed professionals who did not view emotional pain or substance abuse as moral failure the wilderness side of this industry would do some good. Afterall some troubled kids do want help. But i cant think of any sane person who wants to be uncomforable, exhausted and isolated from any comforts in a bid to "get better"
This would be nice, but I fear very expensive. If it could be subsidized by the state and get medical insurance buy-in to help offset some of the costs it may work. It would be great to see a pilot program along this line.
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Who wrote:
I am sure many changes have taken place to their process fairly quickly once they determined the root cause of Ians death, whether it was attributed to the heat, stopping of medication, lack of training, preexisting condition or a combination of all of them.
Ian endured enough disrespect while he was living, don't further disrepect him by minimizing what happened to him at Skyline Journey. Did you not bother to read the article, or are you intentionally misleading the readers? The root cause of Ian's death is known, no one stopped his meds- you've confused his case with Matthew's, 'lack of training' wasn't an issue- just 'bad' training, and there was no preexisiting condition except that he was grossly obese. She was hiking him in temps that exceeded the state maximum and Ian had no water.
Here's the changes that occured.
Hale walked, in exchange for her testimony against SJ- which amounted to a carefully choreographed defense of SJ and herself.
Skyline Journey's license was ultimately revoked.
They opened a wilderness program for young adults called Distant Drums.
When the heat subsided they started taking teens again.
Utah lowered the maximum temperature to 90*.
Ian, Matthew, Michelle, Aaron, Gina, and others have been guinea pigs for this industry. An industry in which philosphy over-rides common sense.
Kids have been dying from exposure to the elements, illegal restraints, medical neglect, preventable accidents, and the "faker excuse" in programs since the industry's inception. They're still dying from those things. What has changed?
Damned ironic that this industry imposes such harsh 'consequences' on the kids, claiming it's the only way to teach/change them, but experience none themselves. At best a slap on the hand, a little negative media, the minor inconvenience of moving and changing their name.
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Deborah wrote:
Ian endured enough disrespect while he was living, don't further disrepect him
I have not disrespected any of the children. Deborah, of all people to say this!! You go out of your way to post these young peoples names on the internet who are innocent and are only trying to help kids who are disadvantaged, at-risk and are working for low pay to gain experience. If you read back, you have disrespected more people here than anyone. You ridicule their backgrounds, the education they receive, post their photos. How would you like someone to post your kids picture on the internet and poke fun at his education and the career he has choosen?
You have very little respect for anyone, Deborah.
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I think what you pointed out is key and points to a training issue. If they could get more mature and better trained personnel I think it would go a long way in preventing incidences like Ian’s.
The staff are deliberately trained to think this way. Because the whole point is "healing" through pain and hardship. Look at the kind of shit they were actually willing to broadcast on brat camp. A kid had an athsma attack and was also beside herself with homesickness and qweeping copiously for her mother. This was not helping the asthma. Because the attack was not bad enough for her to be hospitalised as she claimed the staff gloated about how they were right all along and she was a liar. Because they were busy radioing base camp to prove that it was untrue that she normally was rushed to hospital as she claimed, it did not occur to any of them to comfort her which even though this is one of the first things you are supposed to do to calm and stabilize the person having the attack.
http://www.nationalasthma.org.au/html/e ... /index.asp (http://www.nationalasthma.org.au/html/emergency/index.asp)
i wonder if the cameras would have kept rolling if her lips began to go blue? if she had collapsed? Perhaps if she had stopped breathing all together?
How could anyone want this for their kid? If this is what makes it to camera it is little wonder that some kids actually do die. The thing that would be laughable if it was not tragic is that everytime this happens the response is always both cruel and idiotic.
Firstly there is this sense of oops we should prolly look at tightening the rule as if it were some kind of annoying bank error.
Second there is a defense of the incompotence. He was a difficult kid... most of our kids fake..... or the latest less mean spirited -well he was a really fun guy so we thought he was just doing for shits and giggles.....
never once is the overall ridiculous philosophy of hardship and deprivation challenged. Never do they get to thinking about the inherent dangers of sending uncooperative kids into the wilderness to have nature provide penalty for misdeeds. Never is the morality of making kids cry on a regular basis considered.
There is also no financial sense in getting beter trained on the ground staff because no well educated graduate from an appropriate field is going to work for such shitty wages! Any company's no 1 responsibility is to the shareholders. If salaries go up then so does the already astronomical price. As it is the market is relatively limited even with all of the loans they have.
As i read this i realise how cold it sounds. But these kids are a commodity to aspen and its imatators. I just dont understand how you cant see this. Particularly if you work in marketing.
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geez, this guy is a fucking idiot with no moral compass. it's a shame you ever reproduced, who. your kid is now stuck with a lifetime of an uncaring, disconnected weirdo of a father. as you were told before by someone with common sense: SHAME ON YOU, WHO! you are a shameful individual that promotes businesses that harm children for profit. you are the lowest form of human being that exists. at least deborah sticks up for the KIDS, and that's what matters. fuck the staff if they can't take it. it's their fault and their employers' fault for hiring unqualified, uneducated hacks, not deborah's for POINTING IT OUT.
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perhaps if the wilderness industry took only kids who volunteered, was non profit and employed professionals who did not view emotional pain or substance abuse as moral failure the wilderness side of this industry would do some good. Afterall some troubled kids do want help. But i cant think of any sane person who wants to be uncomforable, exhausted and isolated from any comforts in a bid to "get better"
Who wrote:
This would be nice, but I fear very expensive. If it could be subsidized by the state and get medical insurance buy-in to help offset some of the costs it may work. It would be great to see a pilot program along this line.
Sh0uld the kids suffer because it's cost prohibitive to do it 'better'?
Our tax dollars sh0uld not subsidize programs that are not evidence-based, if they sh0uld subsidize any programs. Insurance already pays for programs, as does federal/local tax dollars via school districts, and low interest 'education' loans. That's enough 'subsidy' for an industry that hasn't even proven efficacy.
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Actually I was thinking more of short term, usually run by charity outward bound type programs. there are a few of them here. i dont want to sing their praises because I have never observed them closely enough to be sure that they are kosher but i do have an open mind toward them at this stage. The jury is still out on their actual effectiveness but both of them are being studied for outcomes
here is what i do know about the 2 i have looked at extensively
-They usually go for about a week or 2. Sometimes there are a few weekends devoted to practicing bush skills before embarking
-the kids always go voluntarily and are usually economically disadvantged or having minor criminal issues. If a kid has a drug issue he may be unable to go if the drug taking hs been severe enough to make him physically unfit for trekking. This is reviewed once the kid has a better hold on the habit.
-The idea is team work and achivement and the exercises are specifically geared around this.
-the "therapy" is in achieving actual goals. there is no sitting around telling the group what you did wrong or impact letters or any of that humiliating shit.
-The philosophy is not one of tough love. in the case of the 2 where i have spoken to the staff they both sounded like they thought i was crazy when I asked about whether kids unable to make a fire have to eat cold etc.
http://www.operationflinders.org/index.php (http://www.operationflinders.org/index.php)
www.jss.org.au/media/docs/EvaluationWTP.doc (http://www.jss.org.au/media/docs/EvaluationWTP.doc)
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geez, this guy is a fucking idiot with no moral compass. it's a shame you ever reproduced, who. your kid is now stuck with a lifetime of an uncaring, disconnected weirdo of a father. as you were told before by someone with common sense: SHAME ON YOU, WHO! you are a shameful individual that promotes businesses that harm children for profit. you are the lowest form of human being that exists. at least deborah sticks up for the KIDS, and that's what matters. fuck the staff if they can't take it. it's their fault and their employers' fault for hiring unqualified, uneducated hacks, not deborah's for POINTING IT OUT.
This is exactly the mentality I am talking about. No one can see past their own hatred. What you are dong is abusive and wrong.
If your child always wanted to design cars and had a passion for it and worked his butt off to become an engineer at Ford Motor Company and there are a group of people that feel the cars should have twice as many air bags than they presently do, preventing countless deaths we could ridicule your son and paste pictures of him all over the internet for being part of such a corrupt industry? Point at his hobbies of model building and laugh. Would this be right? Could we say “screw the staff they can take it, its their fault and their employers for hiring them”
We could all justify abusing your son because he chose to be part of a corrupt industry that when it turned out he didn’t quit his job right away and continues to be part of the industry we could harass him with emails and phones calls….
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This is exactly the mentality I am talking about. No one can see past their own hatred. What you are dong is abusive and wrong.
If your child always wanted to design cars and had a passion for it and worked his butt off to become an engineer at Ford Motor Company and there are a group of people that feel the cars should have twice as many air bags than they presently do, preventing countless deaths we could ridicule your son and paste pictures of him all over the internet for being part of such a corrupt industry? Point at his hobbies of model building and laugh. Would this be right? Could we say “screw the staff they can take it, its their fault and their employers for hiring them”
We could all justify abusing your son because he chose to be part of a corrupt industry that when it turned out he didn’t quit his job right away and continues to be part of the industry we could harass him with emails and phones calls….
:roll: Who are you kidding. these people advertise on the net their name, face and distinct lack of qualification. If there is a discussion of the unethical practices of the company they work for and they advertise as being a part of this then they will be a part of the criticism.
lets use another analogy
If your son had always wanted to jail and bully those smaller and weaker than he and worked his butt off by passionately being a sports fan and getting a passing grade in yr 12 (or failing that a GED ::roflmao:: ) just so that he could work for an organisation which Americas favourite TV asshole recommended and you felt that such an industry was inherently corrupt and his lack of education illustrated its corruption would it be ok to point this out on a forum?
We could all justify questioning both the wider industry and your sons role in it? We could all wonder why his online CV talked about his love of sport but NOT his SPECIFIC QUALIFICATION?
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Oz Girl wrote:
Who are you kidding. these people advertise on the net their name, face and distinct lack of qualification. If there is a discussion of the unethical practices of the company they work for and they advertise as being a part of this then they will be a part of the criticism.
Not to post their pictures and names, you are wrong, Oz Girl.
Do you really believe when people ask what they do they respond “I work for a corrupt organization with unethical practices”? These are your views not theirs. You are part of a group that disagrees with their industry, they see it as helping kids. When the school ask if they can post their names and pictures with a brief description on their web page they say sure. But it isn’t right to take their photos and post them on forums and ridicule what they do.
When you hand your credit card to a waitress there is an implied trust. Sure she could give your Credit number to the buss boy if he asks for it, she wouldn’t be stealing right? But it is unethical.
If you asked these people if you could use their photo that would be a different story.
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They put it on a public website, they wanted the whole world to know they work for this place. They chose to be associated with the good and the bad that comes with it.
If it were a situation were we paparazi like pictures of these people then I could understand, but they did this to themselves.
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The Who said:
"We could all justify abusing your son..."
You have. And you continue to do so several times a day, every day. Nice. You're a reall winner, Who.
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They put it on a public website, they wanted the whole world to know they work for this place. They chose to be associated with the good and the bad that comes with it.
If it were a situation were we paparazi like pictures of these people then I could understand, but they did this to themselves.
So in the example above. You wouldnt mind your child being treated like this, if they worked for Ford?
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What the hell does Ford have to do with children being abused and neglected, day in and day out, in Aspen Education Group programs? Kids are dying left and right in just this one AEG program and all you can say is "What about the Ford example?"
You are one detached, deluded, self-involved asshole. You will justify or try to explain away anything, even if it means disrespecting the dead and their grieving families.
You really n3ed to take a look at yourself and get some help, you sanctimonious son of a bitch..
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If Ford was actually knowingly building unsafe cars and passing them off as being safe, then no I wouldnt have a problem with it at all. In fact I'd probably question why he chose to work for such an irrespondsible company in the first place.
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If Ford was actually knowingly building unsafe cars and passing them off as being safe, then no I wouldnt have a problem with it at all. In fact I'd probably question why he chose to work for such an irrespondsible company in the first place.
That answers my question, Thanks.
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Good deal.
Would you have a problem with letting the world know your son worked for an irrespondsible company?
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They put it on a public website, they wanted the whole world to know they work for this place. They chose to be associated with the good and the bad that comes with it.
If it were a situation were we paparazi like pictures of these people then I could understand, but they did this to themselves.
So in the example above. You wouldnt mind your child being treated like this, if they worked for Ford?
And Who derails another discussion, about a child who was killed at a program, with another irrelevent analogy to discussion about respecting the "children" who work there. Do they employ minors who have no rights? Well, on second thought, that's not too far from the truth.
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They put it on a public website, they wanted the whole world to know they work for this place. They chose to be associated with the good and the bad that comes with it.
If it were a situation were we paparazi like pictures of these people then I could understand, but they did this to themselves.
So in the example above. You wouldnt mind your child being treated like this, if they worked for Ford?
And Who derails another discussion, about a child who was killed at a program, with another irrelevent analogy to discussion about respecting the "children" who work there. Do they employ minors who have no rights? Well, on second thought, that's not too far from the truth.
Very typical, Deborah, someone doesnt agree with you and you claim they derail the conversation or you split their responses off so you dont have to respond.
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Good deal.
Would you have a problem with letting the world know your son worked for an irrespondsible company?
No, I wouldn’t want my child’s picture and name on the internet being criticized by a group of people that didn’t believe in what he was doing. If he was working for a irresponsible company he would be working to change things and make them better.
Only fringe groups take pleasure in ridiculing other people who don’t have the direct authority to affect change within their organization.
Its wrong and everyone here knows that. There is just so much hatred towards these places that you don’t care who you hurt as long as you can dump some of your anger on someone
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Riiiiiiight. And alot of the SS members were just following orders right?
Its time to wake up. These people know full well what sort of company theyre working for and they know what goes on there. If they have a problem with the way things are done there they have the option of leaving, or even better yet. Reporting it.
They take so much pride in working there they should have no problem when we hold them accountable for what goes on there.
Its a two way street.
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Who's on the aspen payroll, I'm convinced
His/her job description - "Protect ASPEN from fornits!!"
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Who's on the aspen payroll, I'm convinced
His/her job description - "Protect ASPEN from fornits!!"
More like “Protect the parents from fornits” Ha,Ha,……. Many can take a beating or get one sided information if they happen to stop in here looking for help.
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Not if theyre honest....
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So who getting back to the actual discussion of the philosophy of tough love which puts catching kids out for "faking" second to actual first aid, how is this morally justifiable to you? After all Aspen have now twice encouraged this mentality to be captured on tape and actively promoted to Britian and europe. What does a kid with some kind of physical or emotional pain get out of it?
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So who getting back to the actual discussion of the philosophy of tough love which puts catching kids out for "faking" second to actual first aid, how is this morally justifiable to you? After all Aspen have now twice encouraged this mentality to be captured on tape and actively promoted to Britian and europe. What does a kid with some kind of physical or emotional pain get out of it?
I don’t see it as justifiable at all..... I see the difficulty with all the people involved and I think it would be difficult for any professional if a kid constantly was faking an illness and taking time away from the other kids who needed attention. If the time came for this child when he needed help it may not come as quickly if the counselor was working with another kid or preoccupied with another task....the emergency would be weighed based on past experience I would imagine. Of course the professional would treat the child but precious minutes could be lost.
Not sure what the solution would be for this.
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"Great news mam'm, your son finally started being honest. Yes we're thrilled about it as well. It really shows marked marked improvement? What's that you ask? What did he decide to be honest about? Well.......promise not to be mad okay? You see a couple times over the past couple of weeks your son decided to be a little trickster and pretend to be sick. Every time he did we slapped his belly and made him punch himself in the face to see if he was telling the truth, and he never was! We'll anyway today we go on this quick little walk right? What's that? Oh it was 11 miles I think, no big deal anyw...what's that? Ummmm 110 degrees I think. I dont know really I was following behind in a car. So anyway we get back and like the little jokester he is he decides to sit down by the tree and start snoring. Well we were certain he was faking even after he started vomitting and eating dirt. I mean what kid doesnt right? So anyway I decide this time I'll get him, I rounded all the kids up and sent them along, then I crept back and hide in the bushes waiting for him to get up, cause I knew he was faking. So i stake out a good spot behind some bushes and waited a good 45 minutes. When I saw the blood trickling out of his ear that's really when my professional training kicked in and I did everything I could to save him! Sorry though, your kid is dead. But hey, at least he was honest about something right. When he kept begging me for water he was finally telling the truth. Every cloud has a silver lining right? Hey youre not gonna tell on us or nothing are you?"
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I don’t see it as justifiable at all..... I see the difficulty with all the people involved and I think it would be difficult for any professional if a kid constantly was faking an illness and taking time away from the other kids who needed attention. If the time came for this child when he needed help it may not come as quickly if the counselor was working with another kid or preoccupied with another task....the emergency would be weighed based on past experience I would imagine. Of course the professional would treat the child but precious minutes could be lost.
That is the thing. A kid who is overall having a positive experience and geting the "help" they need would be unlikely to fake sick continuously because they would want the help. So if they are claiming illness on a regular basis they are either
a) sick and in need of immediate medical attention
B) Not physically sick but getting nothing out of the program and actively distressed
There are few other youth industries which take this unique view that repeated claims of illness are most likely to be untrue.
How is either of these things a desirable or helpful thing for a kid?
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Good point Oz Girl
C) Another option is the kid is fighting the fact that he has to be there and is trying to find a way out.
If you have kids you will know they can be tough to motivate at times. My daughter would always say her legs hurts when we asked her to do something but when it came time to go to the mall she seemed fine. Once they get their butts in gear and start working and understand the consequences or get into the routine they are usually fine.
So I guess what I am saying is at the onset (or transition part)of the program it is probably the danger part because the counselors are trying to get to know the new kids and the new kids don’t want to be there. Lots of games and manipulation going on etc. and mistakes can be made
I think this is very dangerous, no one knows each other, how they react. I would be interested to know how other places deal with kids during a transition like this myself
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This did not answer the question. it was just a story about your daughter.
So i will ask another way
How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid?
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This did not answer the question. it was just a story about your daughter.
So i will ask another way
How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid?
Wow, that is a huge question. Not sure how to answer that easily. Going from a bad place to a good place typically involves discomfort. Quitting smoking, drug withdrawal, leaving the comforts of home behind to focus on oneself would involve discomfort at first. Going on a diet, leaving an abusive relationship.
I think any growing experience has some level of discomfort that goes along with it.
Do you see it this way?
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This did not answer the question. it was just a story about your daughter.
So i will ask another way
How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid?
Wow, that is a huge question. Not sure how to answer that easily. Going from a bad place to a good place typically involves discomfort. Quitting smoking, drug withdrawal, leaving the comforts of home behind to focus on oneself would involve discomfort at first. Going on a diet, leaving an abusive relationship.
I think any growing experience has some level of discomfort that goes along with it.
Do you see it this way?
What i see is that any kind of lisfestyle improvements need to come from an enternal desire to change. They also require the active support of loved ones. Kids who are geographically cut off from such people do not have either of these things. You cant "force" anyone to want to change and all of these places attempt to do this.
i also see that a for proft company does not give a rats ass what the kid needs or whether it is meeting a kids needs. What it cares about is whether it can convince the parents that it is meeting the kids needs.
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No who, therapy does not purposefully involve making a kid miserable to the point of faking sick and then dying. If we follow your logic we should all be shocking our depressed, drug addicted, "disrespectful" teens with stun guns because, while painful, they'll grow emotionally.
Question, how did Ian emotionally grow? How did Anderson emotionally grow? Giovanni? James? did their discomfort afford them any emotional growth? Also why is it that programs don't warn parents that during the "transition" complaints of sickness or discomfort will be treated like possible manipulation?
This is B.S.
A few kids may die because of this willful and purposeful neglect but how many suffer needlessly. I say needlessly because I don't believe in torturing kids to get them to emotionally grow, I'm sure you would call any suffering necessary.
I also wonder about this, kids get sent to programs for being into things that may bring harm to them like drugs, abusive relationships, depression. Why then do program-parents ignore the dangers of programs in regards to the safety of their children?
*waits for the who's response*
*can't wait so makes a who parody"
I'm not saying that kids must suffer I'm only pointing out, in response to Oz girls question, that pain is often apart of growth. What happened to Ian , Anderson, James, and Giovanni were all tragic mistakes that will only serve to raise the bar in the future. Shame on you hanzo for using their tragic deaths to further your one-sided agenda.
Comparing Programs to dangerous attitudes and behaviors that sometimes result in death is not fair because programs try to help kids and only has the best interest of the child in mind. The deaths that do happen in programs are tragic mistakes that we should not be so quick to blame on the PROgram
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oz girl wrote:
What i see is that any kind of lisfestyle improvements need to come from an enternal desire to change. They also require the active support of loved ones. Kids who are geographically cut off from such people do not have either of these things. You cant "force" anyone to want to change and all of these places attempt to do this.
Yes, but I have seen many of these kids start out very resistant and come out the other end with a great deal of self esteem, noticeably healthier and happier. Many indicated it was good for them but most wouldn’t want to go back. There are kids that dig in their heels the whole way and get nothing out of it and I think that is what we see referenced here on fornits. I agree that the person needs to embrace the desire to change and it takes time (different amounts for each person) to find the comfort level within themselves or the group they are with, trusting their counselors etc. that is needed to start the healing process that occurs during these wilderness stays.
The ideal place for this to occur is at home surrounded by their loved ones and the majority of kids can be effected at this local level but a very few cannot and need to be reached outside of their environment, again not ideal, but least restrictive.
Do you believe nay of these kids do well and get turned around?
i also see that a for proft company does not give a rats ass what the kid needs or whether it is meeting a kids needs. What it cares about is whether it can convince the parents that it is meeting the kids needs.
I cant agree here at all. I don’t see how a government run place or non profit is going to be any more compassionate or effective. Non profit is over rated and doesn’t really mean what you think. Everyone makes money except the company. The employees still drive Mercedes and get bonuses for a good year, they just don’t have a board of directors pushing them to increase profits.
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You will note i did not mention the state at all so it is irrelevant to this particular debate. What I mentioned was ther *possibility* that with profit out of the equation there is a remote chancce that those involved on a high level actually are altruistically motivated.
I dont doubt that there are some kids who come out better behaved some grow out of things, others asr "scared straight" this does not make it OK.
You also seem to miss the point that for someone genuinely overcoming an addiction or dealing with trauma there is enough pain already. So manufacturing more is not the answer.
the only person i have ever known who had to go away for "treatment" as a minor is a young anorexic. Her family visited her in the hospital every day she was there. All staff were comitted to getting her out ASAP. Friends brought flowers and visted the way they would for anyone else in hospital. It was widely recognised that she needed more not less community support. She did improve and is still stabliising. So this idea that manufaturing pain to pomote growth is absurd
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You also seem to miss the point that for someone genuinely overcoming an addiction or dealing with trauma there is enough pain already. So manufacturing more is not the answer.
No I didn’t miss the point. You asked “How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid” and I answered that discomfort typically accompanies any growth or positive transition.
The specifics I am not in a position to know professionally. Some people overcoming an addiction may benefit from a change in diet, hiking in the woods, fresh air, focusing on a project, keeping busy 24/7, I don’t know, I am not an addiction expert. I have seen these kids go in and come out and the majority experience 180 degree turnaround.
Would this turn around be better if it occurred at home? Dam right it would, I am all for it. But if it cant or it fails we need to fine the next best place and if that fails we try again until we get the child the help he needs.
The last thing we want to do is say oh well it is not working at home, lets give up and hope he grows out of it. Most of these kids are asking for help, they may not be saying the words but the intent is there.
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The other issue you never addressed was the morality of giving one person the right to inflict pain on another or deliberately using pain or discomfort to gain compliance.
As to whether i believe kids are "turned around" i have no idea as there is no truly long term study which proves anything either way. i do know that there are statistics which sow that most kids do grow out of adolescent behaviours and do not end up dead mentallly ill or incarcerated. This is in both the US and other similar western countries which do not have a large tough love movement. So i would say that in the unknown event that tough love "works" in getting compliance it is not a moral or sound way of doing it.
What tough love does do is reassure parents and give them absolution for their kids problems. Aspens promotional materials lead the charge with this.
http://www.aspeneducation.com/video/parentsspeak.html (http://www.aspeneducation.com/video/parentsspeak.html)
From the earnest therapist looking guy who assures parents it is always worse than you think and also tells them that nothing is their fault to the everydad who cries and says he feared his daughter would be "like this forever" ehrn the neighbours kids were all so perfect. If I were cynical I would use this years tax return to invest in Aspen because such campaigns must have em laughing all the way to the bank. Well at least till the next kid dies
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oz girl wrote:
The other issue you never addressed was the morality of giving one person the right to inflict pain on another or deliberately using pain or discomfort to gain compliance.
I don’t believe anyone should have the power to inflict pain on another. Removing comforts i.e. cell phones, privileges, being grounded, removing bad influences, people, places….sure. Restricting food, beatings etc. is criminal and the authorities should be called.
As to whether i believe kids are "turned around" i have no idea as there is no truly long term study which proves anything either way. i do know that there are statistics which sow that most kids do grow out of adolescent behaviours and do not end up dead mentallly ill or incarcerated. This is in both the US and other similar western countries which do not have a large tough love movement. So i would say that in the unknown event that tough love "works" in getting compliance it is not a moral or sound way of doing it.
I agree, in part Oz Girl, many would even have us believe that all kids will grow out of it, but the numbers show that thousands of children die each year because they couldn’t be reached thru local services, parents ignored or were not aware of the signs etc. The kids that have parents who recognized the signs, engaged local intervention or help and found this to be ineffective and needed to look outside the home for their children to get help is a very small percentage.
Does “Tough love” work? Sure, how effective is it? I don’t think we know the whole answer to that.
From the earnest therapist looking guy who assures parents it is always worse than you think and also tells them that nothing is their fault to the everydad who cries and says he feared his daughter would be "like this forever" ehrn the neighbours kids were all so perfect. If I were cynical I would use this years tax return to invest in Aspen because such campaigns must have em laughing all the way to the bank. Well at least till the next kid dies
I think we also need to look at the fact that from a purely business point of view the schools want to have these kids be successful (high success rates) so they are not going to accept kids who are outside the schools area of expertise and refer them to another place, so it isn’t as hard a sell as everyone here would have you believe. The schools wouldn’t last very long if the majority of the kids didn’t do well.
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If nobody is sure of the extent to which tough love works (whatever your definition of that is) and western countries which dont use it have roughly the same rate of delinquency as the US why bother with it at all? it makes no ethical sense.
As to whether programs only market to families who need their services becuase their kids are in Dire trouble and have ethical practices becuase they would make less profit if this were not the case ::roflmao::
-what about the fact that many kids go to several rtcs because none seems to be the right "fit" each one makes quite a buck out of it
-The director of redcliff claimed on international tv that they take both hardcore kids on their way to jail and kids who have been caught watching a dirty movie. We all know a boy can make himself go blind doing this but how will he end up dead or in jail?
-AAA also went on camera depriving kids of proper cooked meals for weeks (rosie brat camp 2) even though the kid in question was in compliance with all of the rules from very early on
-AAA also showed a counsellor urging a girl to hit him on several occasions. When she did he pushed her to the floor and sat on her
-The same girl had her wrists twisted for what the narrator said was 2 hours
- Another girl was restrained by 2 women. One sat on her with her arm twisted up her back and claimed with satisfaction "now it hurts"
- Turn about ranch (which at least appeared to feed the kids well) tied 2 girls together for a day to teach them to like each other.
Again are you ok with such practices? If this is what they are willing to showe on international TV have you ever wondered how much worse it gets when the cameras stop.
Have you also never wondered why there are no survivor groups for normal private schools?
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If nobody is sure of the extent to which tough love works (whatever your definition of that is) and western countries which dont use it have roughly the same rate of delinquency as the US why bother with it at all? it makes no ethical sense.
Good point. If the data points to it having no effect then I see no reason to continue using this approach. I really believe the industry needs more research to determine what is working and what is not so as to support and drive a more data driven decision mind set and direction.
As to whether programs only market to families who need their services becuase their kids are in Dire trouble and have ethical practices becuase they would make less profit if this were not the case
No, I guess what I mean is if research determined that kids were not benefiting from their services (TBS) than the business model would either have to change (shift) or they would slowly go out of business. So it doesn’t make any sense to accept kids who they know are going to fail for the sake of a short term profit. Strategically it is a bad business decision. Independent start-ups (without a board to report back to) may try this but they will quickly become fly by night outfits and move around to avoid exposing their failures and accept their short term gains.
what about the fact that many kids go to several rtcs because none seems to be the right "fit" each one makes quite a buck out of it
I would expect they will not survive for very long if they continue to miss their target strengths when accepting children and don’t adjust their screening process.
-The director of redcliff claimed on international tv that they take both hardcore kids on their way to jail and kids who have been caught watching a dirty movie. We all know a boy can make himself go blind doing this but how will he end up dead or in jail?
-AAA also went on camera depriving kids of proper cooked meals for weeks (rosie brat camp 2) even though the kid in question was in compliance with all of the rules from very early on
-AAA also showed a counsellor urging a girl to hit him on several occasions. When she did he pushed her to the floor and sat on her
-The same girl had her wrists twisted for what the narrator said was 2 hours
- Another girl was restrained by 2 women. One sat on her with her arm twisted up her back and claimed with satisfaction "now it hurts"
- Turn about ranch (which at least appeared to feed the kids well) tied 2 girls together for a day to teach them to like each other.
Again are you ok with such practices? If this is what they are willing to showe on international TV have you ever wondered how much worse it gets when the cameras stop.
I have never seen this series but I don’t put much faith in its sincerity. Members of Survivor which has been one of the strictest reality shows are starting to come out and admit some people were given toothbrushes, feminine items, soap etc. even though they had not earned the privilege. The women were encouraged to wear as little as possible and the camera people were instructed on what to shoot. So what you see is only what they want you to see to keep it interesting. If you stand out, throw a fit or play to the audience you will get more air time and become known, maybe earn a full scholarship to a TBS, like I believe one of them did I heard here. In Brat Camp if they only showed the kids sitting around the camp fire singing then the show would have been canceled after 2 weeks. I don’t know if this is everyone’s perception, did you feel the show was reflecting reality?
Have you also never wondered why there are no survivor groups for normal private schools?
Everyone has pretty much gone to high school, so you don’t need to search the internet for someone to relate to or talk about your experiences, but TBS is unique so some people may want to search for others who went thru the same thing, bitch about the food, tell war stories.
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I have never seen this series but I don’t put much faith in its sincerity. Members of Survivor which has been one of the strictest reality shows are starting to come out and admit some people were given toothbrushes, feminine items, soap etc. even though they had not earned the privilege. The women were encouraged to wear as little as possible and the camera people were instructed on what to shoot. So what you see is only what they want you to see to keep it interesting. If you stand out, throw a fit or play to the audience you will get more air time and become known, maybe earn a full scholarship to a TBS, like I believe one of them did I heard here. In Brat Camp if they only showed the kids sitting around the camp fire singing then the show would have been canceled after 2 weeks. I don’t know if this is everyone’s perception, did you feel the show was reflecting reality?
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I dont know. I know some of the things they did (the carts, impact letters etc were consistent with the things that survivors have complained of). i know Marcus described similar things about the wilderness component of ASR (now defunct) I know it makes no sense to claim you take kids who were caught with porn if this is not the case so in that respect the guy was likely to be truthful.
i think that both the kids and the staff at times performed for the camera. Particularly that cretin wayne winder. i also think the parents did their share of acting as well. But what i think Brat camp was truthful about was the mentality of the industry. Why would you boast about all the ways you make kids cry (WW) if you dont beielve this is a good thing? Why would you make a huge show of talking about how an athsmatic kid is typical of the little fakers you see regularly if you do not believe it to be true? I also think the series on TAR highlighted the idiocy of the staff at these places. You should bear in mind that the narrator was largely on the side of the staff as well. WHat i think brat camp did lie about was how miraculous the "turnaround" is for the kids. I note they made no mention of the fact that american kids often finish wilderness and go straight to TBS in a private paddy wagon either. What was most disturbing about brat camp was the spin it put on those program because it showed hideous treatment of kids but encouraged strongly the idea that this was a good thing.
I note too you did not answer the question. i know this is something you are not fond of. Do you beleive the behaviours I initially listed are right or appropriate?
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Aspen gets final say on what gets released and I am sure the announcers take the staffs side on details. Although it is not true that the kids are taken from wilderness to a TBS by paddy wagon, to my knowledge. Here are some thoughts in regards to your list.
-The director of redcliff claimed on international tv that they take both hardcore kids on their way to jail and kids who have been caught watching a dirty movie. We all know a boy can make himself go blind doing this but how will he end up dead or in jail?
Good question, Really dont know. I wouldnt send my child away for watching HBO movies. Its tough to keep a teen home on Saturday nights, rather have him home than out somewhere.
-AAA also went on camera depriving kids of proper cooked meals for weeks (rosie brat camp 2) even though the kid in question was in compliance with all of the rules from very early on
I didn’t see this so I don’t know the back ground. If the food was good quality and contained the correct balance and enough calories I don’t see a problem. If they were below minimum calories or going against a doctors request I wouldn’t agree with this.
-AAA also showed a counsellor urging a girl to hit him on several occasions. When she did he pushed her to the floor and sat on her.
I don’t believe in any hitting at all. I’m not one of those “No spank” fanatics but we never spanked our kids (some people feel we should have)
-The same girl had her wrists twisted for what the narrator said was 2 hours
Seems like a long time to be restrained like that. It seems a little bazaar, imagine holding someone’s hands back for 2 hours. I use to wrestle in high school and after 15 minutes on the mats with someone and I would be exhausted and I was in good shape, I find it hard to believe.
- Another girl was restrained by 2 women. One sat on her with her arm twisted up her back
and claimed with satisfaction "now it hurts"
That’s not right at all. Don’t believe in that type of behavior.
- Turn about ranch (which at least appeared to feed the kids well) tied 2 girls together for a
day to teach them to like each other.
It seems really weird, they did this on TV?
These are not behaviors that I embrace or approve of…they do come from a tv show so I must take it with a grain of salt.
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Well who if you take something the programs allow to be documented on TV with a grain of salt as well as what kids who have been through the system say it seems that this is a pretty big case of denial. Tnak your lucky stars you are not at wilderness youd be eating cold porridge till they got you to see the "truth"
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Well who if you take something the programs allow to be documented on TV with a grain of salt as well as what kids who have been through the system say it seems that this is a pretty big case of denial. Tnak your lucky stars you are not at wilderness youd be eating cold porridge till they got you to see the "truth"
I have traveled extensively and realize many people view Americans by what they see on television and believe me it isn’t the case (except maybe the "Simpsons"). The Television industry may market a show as a reality series but it is just a stage show like every other show, one needs to take it with a grain of salt. Sure it parallels the wilderness industry, but they need to step it up to keep everyone interested. It is boring to hear all the kids are having a good day but if there is confrontation then they would rather film that part and the people know to step it up a notch.
It doesn’t mean I take peoples accounts here with a grain of salt, just the TV industry.
At SUWS, where my daughter attended, they were eating Lentils, rice and garlic the last night (which I was told was typical) My daughter cooked the meal and we sat up and talked about her experience, we slept on the ground with this screeching train that would go by every 2 hours down the mountain. I had the worst headache when morning came and barely slept a wink. My daughter got a kick out of seeing me suffer a little I think, and she was used to it by then… ( we weren’t much of a camping family). No toothbrush, shower etc. She said something like “Dad, you have to push thru it, we need to meet up on the trail” Ha,Ha,Ha, who was in charge then?
So I realize the place isn’t a resort, just not sure how much of the TV series to believe.
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But in all seriousness you joke about the fact that kids get sent there for watching porn. You are aware that you were in discomfort, even pain for 1 night but OK with your daughter being this way for weeks.You claim that both the TV and kids are exaggerating and that those who claim very real distress and trauma are just those that were "stubborn".
Why do you do this? It does not seem at all a laughing matter to me. This mind set is quite sinister and it is one that TV shows like brat camp as well as the whole industry encourage. Real people are being hurt by all of this. How is it that you can be really glib in defending this industry? To me the real tragedy is the kids who spend 8 weeks cold, miserable and sometimes in real physical pain as much as it is the ian Augusts and Aaron Bacons because there aremany such kids who never make the news but go on to live with a lot of unneccesary demons.
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But in all seriousness you joke about the fact that kids get sent there for watching porn. You are aware that you were in discomfort, even pain for 1 night but OK with your daughter being this way for weeks.
I don’t joke about kids getting sent away for watching porn, I think it is nuts. These parents should know better. It goes to show you there are all kinds of people out there. This isn’t the typical child that attends wilderness.
You claim that both the TV and kids are exaggerating and that those who claim very real distress and trauma are just those that were "stubborn". Why do you do this? It does not seem at all a laughing matter to me. This mind set is quite sinister and it is one that TV shows like brat camp as well as the whole industry encourage.
I believe what I said was it is a TV show and events can get distorted or made to seem different than they really are. If kids are sitting around the camp fire singing it is going to be sitting on the editors floor, If they have a slow week they are going to have to figure out how to boast the excitement for the following week even if they need to use a sharp stick “As they say” . But is this a true reflection on wilderness camp? Probably not, I am sure there are aspects that are real , but either way I am talking thru my hat because I never saw the show. So my opinion isn’t worth much on this one. I will have to defer to yourself and others who have been there.
Real people are being hurt by all of this. How is it that you can be really glib in defending this industry? To me the real tragedy is the kids who spend 8 weeks cold, miserable and sometimes in real physical pain as much as it is the ian Augusts and Aaron Bacons because there aremany such kids who never make the news but go on to live with a lot of unneccesary demons.
I am not defending the entire industry. I believe that religion is important also, in its own way, and contributes to society in a positive way but I don’t think that many of the fringe sects that do harm to people are necessarily good for us or individuals who permeate the main stream religions for the purpose of hurting our children is good either, but I am not ready to sign a petition to have religion abolished. We all need to be a little more proactive and work towards improving what we have (weeding out the bad) instead of tearing something down to serve some personal desires or agendas, these places do benefit many children. We have a process in place lets work on improving it for the benefit of the kids.
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::blah::
This guy could spin shit into gold....
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Hm whoever that was that use to work there IS correct. I was there in 2004..or around that time in the girls group. There is a couple of the staff I talked to that I NEED to talk to. No I'm not mad. But TWO of them did save my OWN life. If it wasn't for meeting them. I would have commited suicide when I was 16. Yeah agreed shit happens. But its not everyones fault that works there.
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Our datasheet of this program (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Lone_Star_Expeditions) have several survivor groups listed. Among them a specific survivor group on Myspace (http://http://groups.myspace.com/ISURVIVEDLSE). If someone knows of other groups, please let us know the url, so we can add it on the datasheet.
Maybe you can find someone you know.
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This goes out to the girl who worked at LSE and supposedly met Matthew Meyer. Girl, you have no idea what you are talking about. Matthew suffered over 24 hours, was forced to walk in 115 to 130 heat index after getting lost by the navigator. When he managed to complete the last 200 yards, he collapsed on the ground. Staff member kept telling him to get up, then they through water on him and when they heard him "snoring" he was actually aspiriating. But the staff just kept telling him to quit faking it. After 20 minutes, they finally looked at him and realized he was dying.
The night before he was stumbling and mumbling around and said his legs felt numb. Through a radio call, the psychologist on staff said it was an anxiety attack and never went and looked at him.
Also, you idiot, his heart was just fine. It took over a month to get the autopsy report back, so you had no idea what you were talking about. You need to keep your mouth shut until you know the truth.
I know the truth and you can take that to the bank. I have been waiting patiently to tell you just how stupid you sounded in your little say so. You might want to shut up from now on.
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http://www.isaccorp.org/ (http://www.isaccorp.org/)
hey Toolate.
Contact isac with that info, as well as CAFETY.
ASPEN organization murdered that kid. Help put the murderers in prison. You can report your information confidentially if you like. No one will challenge your anonymity. The people at these orgs ar organized to help the people murdered in these gulags, and they'll make sure no one finds out who you are, if that is a concern
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Attn: The Who. You should be called the Was because you have no idea what in the world you are talking about when you speak of Matthew Meyer and how he died at LSE. The autopsy report took almost 6 weeks to be completed, and trust me when I say, his heart was just fine. The night before he died, he complained of numb legs, stumbling, mumbling, the field instructors called the psychologist and said what Matt was doing, he determined it was an anxiety attack and not to worry about. The next morning Matt wouldn't eat, at lunch, he said he couldn't go any further, the other kids even offered to carry him, but I guess some sort of peer pressure was used (that I can't guarantee) and Matt was helped up. A 1 mile hike turned into over 3 miles because the navigator got lost. The heat index was 115 to 130 that day. Matt had to keep stopping, but made to go on. The last 200 yards were strictly unexplainable, but when he did make it to the camp he collapsed. Yeah the field instructors kept telling him to get up and set up camp, he could lay down later. This happened several times. He was told if he didn't get up he (field instructor) would pour water on him. So water was thrown on him several times. After about 20 minutes, Matt started making a sound like snoring, he was aspirating, and he was told to get up and quit faking, several times. Matt was already dying by the time 1 of the 3 field inspectors finally actually looked at Matt. It took almost 45 minutes before anyone called an ambulance, and Life Flight was on stand by, but they told them to wait. I can go on and on and on. But what I have said to you, you can take to the bank.
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Attn: The Who. You should be called the Was because you have no idea what in the world you are talking about when you speak of Matthew Meyer and how he died at LSE. The autopsy report took almost 6 weeks to be completed, and trust me when I say, his heart was just fine. The night before he died, he complained of numb legs, stumbling, mumbling, the field instructors called the psychologist and said what Matt was doing, he determined it was an anxiety attack and not to worry about. The next morning Matt wouldn't eat, at lunch, he said he couldn't go any further, the other kids even offered to carry him, but I guess some sort of peer pressure was used (that I can't guarantee) and Matt was helped up. A 1 mile hike turned into over 3 miles because the navigator got lost. The heat index was 115 to 130 that day. Matt had to keep stopping, but made to go on. The last 200 yards were strictly unexplainable, but when he did make it to the camp he collapsed. Yeah the field instructors kept telling him to get up and set up camp, he could lay down later. This happened several times. He was told if he didn't get up he (field instructor) would pour water on him. So water was thrown on him several times. After about 20 minutes, Matt started making a sound like snoring, he was aspirating, and he was told to get up and quit faking, several times. Matt was already dying by the time 1 of the 3 field inspectors finally actually looked at Matt. It took almost 45 minutes before anyone called an ambulance, and Life Flight was on stand by, but they told them to wait. I can go on and on and on. But what I have said to you, you can take to the bank.
Did you contact cafety or isac with your info?
here are their websites:
http://www.cafety.org/ (http://www.cafety.org/)
http://www.isaccorp.org/ (http://www.isaccorp.org/)
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toolate
Please note that it wasn't just the meds that were not taken, but a full 24 hours of begging for help. The meds didn't do the damage, it was the clothing, heat and non-training of the wilderness instructors that are with the children 24/7. Their first opinion is the kid is faking if they complain. When there are only 8 boys or girls in the program at any one time, it is worth the effort to take them to a doctor. If the doctor says they are faking their ailments, then so be it. I don't think a wilderness insructor is a doctor, or a nurse and can determine if is a kid is faking or not.
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Everything has been reported and documented.
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Everything has been reported and documented.
YOU REPORTED it to isac and cafety. thank you!! you are my hero whoever you are!!!!
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you can read all about it in Cafety. Just went to the Hill. Times will change.
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can you provide me a link to where i can read bout it. I cannot find it.
Cafety's site is organized SO POORLY. I have notified them several times their site is hard to navigate. i know they're busy, but....
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g
can you provide me a link to where i can read bout it. I cannot find it.
Cafety's site is organized SO POORLY. I have notified them several times their site is hard to navigate. i know they're busy, but....
ggg
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CAFETY has received funding and is working with a web designer!
:rasta:
in the interim...
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=68 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=675&Itemid=68)
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CAFETY has received funding and is working with a web designer!
:rasta:
in the interim...
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=68 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=675&Itemid=68)
where can i find the material the above poster was talking about: the murder at Lone Star, aspen education?
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CAFETY has received funding and is working with a web designer!
:rasta:
in the interim...
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=68 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=675&Itemid=68)
where can i find the material the above poster was talking about: the murder at Lone Star, aspen education?
????where?????
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About Matt?
At ling above you can download Crystal's )Matt's Mom's) Capitol Hill presentation...
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About Matt?
At ling above you can download Crystal's )Matt's Mom's) Capitol Hill presentation...
thanks. Is what the posting kid just wrote on this thread quoted below there?..
""This goes out to the girl who worked at LSE and supposedly met Matthew Meyer. Girl, you have no idea what you are talking about. Matthew suffered over 24 hours, was forced to walk in 115 to 130 heat index after getting lost by the navigator. When he managed to complete the last 200 yards, he collapsed on the ground. Staff member kept telling him to get up, then they through water on him and when they heard him "snoring" he was actually aspiriating. But the staff just kept telling him to quit faking it. After 20 minutes, they finally looked at him and realized he was dying.
The night before he was stumbling and mumbling around and said his legs felt numb. Through a radio call, the psychologist on staff said it was an anxiety attack and never went and looked at him.
Also, you idiot, his heart was just fine. It took over a month to get the autopsy report back, so you had no idea what you were talking about. You need to keep your mouth shut until you know the truth.
I know the truth and you can take that to the bank. I have been waiting patiently to tell you just how stupid you sounded in your little say so. You might want to shut up from now on.''''
Attn: The Who. You should be called the Was because you have no idea what in the world you are talking about when you speak of Matthew Meyer and how he died at LSE. The autopsy report took almost 6 weeks to be completed, and trust me when I say, his heart was just fine. The night before he died, he complained of numb legs, stumbling, mumbling, the field instructors called the psychologist and said what Matt was doing, he determined it was an anxiety attack and not to worry about. The next morning Matt wouldn't eat, at lunch, he said he couldn't go any further, the other kids even offered to carry him, but I guess some sort of peer pressure was used (that I can't guarantee) and Matt was helped up. A 1 mile hike turned into over 3 miles because the navigator got lost. The heat index was 115 to 130 that day. Matt had to keep stopping, but made to go on. The last 200 yards were strictly unexplainable, but when he did make it to the camp he collapsed. Yeah the field instructors kept telling him to get up and set up camp, he could lay down later. This happened several times. He was told if he didn't get up he (field instructor) would pour water on him. So water was thrown on him several times. After about 20 minutes, Matt started making a sound like snoring, he was aspirating, and he was told to get up and quit faking, several times. Matt was already dying by the time 1 of the 3 field inspectors finally actually looked at Matt. It took almost 45 minutes before anyone called an ambulance, and Life Flight was on stand by, but they told them to wait. I can go on and on and on. But what I have said to you, you can take to the bank.
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Looks like Cafetynet's page has been suspended. Anybody know what's up with that?
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According to our founder problems with the software and their provider gives Cafety some trouble right now.
Not the best timing considering that the industry is on the run and shoud be kept running.
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From a press release seen by the marketing firm Strugglingteen.com: Aspen Education Group Returns To Its Roots (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/AspenEducationGroupBN_090329.shtml)
In addition, Aspen has announced that LoneStar Expeditions will cease operations effective April 6, 2009. The closure will take place after all current students have graduated from the program and completed their originally planned track so that no students will be displaced.
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And another one's gone, and another one's gone...
Are we getting beyond whack-a-mole yet?
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i was a student there. it wasnt what you all are making of it. although one student there almost dies from an allergic reaction to peanuts. he had a different diet than all of us because of his allergies. but they spilled granola on an oven and he breathed the fumes. he was my friend and almost died. but the staff saved him because they were all prepared to do what they do.
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Attn: The Who. You should be called the Was because you have no idea what in the world you are talking about when you speak of Matthew Meyer and how he died at LSE. The autopsy report took almost 6 weeks to be completed, and trust me when I say, his heart was just fine. The night before he died, he complained of numb legs, stumbling, mumbling, the field instructors called the psychologist and said what Matt was doing, he determined it was an anxiety attack and not to worry about. The next morning Matt wouldn't eat, at lunch, he said he couldn't go any further, the other kids even offered to carry him, but I guess some sort of peer pressure was used (that I can't guarantee) and Matt was helped up. A 1 mile hike turned into over 3 miles because the navigator got lost. The heat index was 115 to 130 that day. Matt had to keep stopping, but made to go on. The last 200 yards were strictly unexplainable, but when he did make it to the camp he collapsed. Yeah the field instructors kept telling him to get up and set up camp, he could lay down later. This happened several times. He was told if he didn't get up he (field instructor) would pour water on him. So water was thrown on him several times. After about 20 minutes, Matt started making a sound like snoring, he was aspirating, and he was told to get up and quit faking, several times. Matt was already dying by the time 1 of the 3 field inspectors finally actually looked at Matt. It took almost 45 minutes before anyone called an ambulance, and Life Flight was on stand by, but they told them to wait. I can go on and on and on. But what I have said to you, you can take to the bank.
It would be great to have a genuine investigation into this
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There was an investigation for 2 years. Got confessions too. Anybody want to argue this? Aspen settled on this one for fear of media attention. Only one person remained at Lonestar after Matt died. What does that tell you? Yes, a settlement. Mother agreed to a settlement so she could speak out against these places and not be gagged for years while Aspen appealed. The settlement was a huge record too because of all the "facts" that were found and the negligence. Money never replaces a child, but it sure hits these corporations where it counts and gets them to make a few changes. It also lets Matt's mother speak out for all the kids that don't make it, commit suicide, live with all the negative brain washing for the rest of their lives, and all the stink that goes with it. She is not sitting back on some yacht giving orders to butlers. She is fighting back for those who can't. Thank God for those of you who seem to come out of the experience physically OK. But your emotional well being is questioned. As a young teenager, you will almost agree to anything to get out of one of those places. If you admit to yourself honestly, you will confirm this is the truth. Kids in these places haven't gotten "bad enough" yet, but parents have lost control and have only a hope that these places will help thier kids.
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Hey my name is james,
I am 17 years old now. I was 16 when I attended Lonestar. I think parents should take their own responsibility for alot of their child's problems. I learned alot of things at lonestar but i would not recommend it. The therapists they use are cheap and worthless, I actually lied and manipulated my therapists into getting out of lonestar. (keep in mind by the time i got to lonestar i was an expert on therapists having been going to several different therapists for years.) The truth is i was solving my own problems before i went to lonestar my parents were to stupid to realize that. I even passed my initial drug test upon entering. Of the other teens that were in my group some had alot bigger problems than me, there were a few gang members and "crazy type kids" who would snap and have to take several doses of Klonopin to calm down. I will admit the isolation and guides helped me realize the impact i had made on my family and friends. I am now a recovering drug addict who has been clean for 1 year and 5 months. I dont know what to tell you to do with your child but all I know is the book they make you read is pretty good for communication with your child and building trust. i cannot remeber the name sorry. Anyways i was using alot of acid and Ecstasy and selling pot before lonestar. If your child is just smoking marijuana or something i wouldn't freak out to much just talk to them about the way it makes you feel/ worry. try and build a good relationship with them and save your self the buckets of money you will spend on all this therapeutic shit. hope i helped
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i went to lonestar expeditions when i was 17yrs and it was an experience i wish i could do again, i knew matt he came 4 days before i left, and as far as the whole things about the staff and it being there fault, if you dont know the area and how the situation is, and the potential fatigue you can get, than dont assume the staff didn't do everything possible, even though he wasnt joking and was really having problems, most of the time you can be 10 to 15 miles away from base camp, in a remote area so having emergency medical staff there may take a few minutes. it is a good program and i would advise anyone who is interested for there kid with drug or family problems to go there, when the counselors say that you need to be well hydrated sometimes the campers will disregard that and not do as told, so in other words follow what the leaders tell ya and you will be alright. yes it is hard and tiring but it was prolly the best experience i have ever had.
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i went to lonestar expeditions when i was 17yrs and it was an experience i wish i could do again, i knew matt he came 4 days before i left, and as far as the whole things about the staff and it being there fault, if you dont know the area and how the situation is, and the potential fatigue you can get, than dont assume the staff didn't do everything possible, even though he wasnt joking and was really having problems, most of the time you can be 10 to 15 miles away from base camp, in a remote area so having emergency medical staff there may take a few minutes. it is a good program and i would advise anyone who is interested for there kid with drug or family problems to go there, when the counselors say that you need to be well hydrated sometimes the campers will disregard that and not do as told, so in other words follow what the leaders tell ya and you will be alright. yes it is hard and tiring but it was prolly the best experience i have ever had.
went to lonestar expeditions when i was 17yrs and it was an experience i wish i could do again, i knew matt he came 4 days before i left, and as far as the whole things about the staff and it being there fault, if you dont know the area and how the situation is, and the potential fatigue you can get, than dont assume the staff didn't do everything possible, even though he wasnt joking and was really having problems, most of the time you can be 10 to 15 miles away from base camp, in a remote area so having emergency medical staff there may take a few minutes. it is a good program and i would advise anyone who is interested for there kid with drug or family problems to go there, when the counselors say that you need to be well hydrated sometimes the campers will disregard that and not do as told, so in other words follow what the leaders tell ya and you will be alright. yes it is hard and tiring but it was prolly the best experience i have ever had.
Disgusting. ^^John David Reuben pretending to be a lone star victim to publicly shield Aspen Education Group Cult from responsibility for the death of the kid they killed. Well, considering he betrayed his own kid, Michael to the cult Academy at Swift River (who later killed himself), what can you expect? Unlike John, this kids mother loved her kid. Wanna show some respect to this dead child by taking your shilling to another thread?
There are confessions and a 'record' settlement. Maybe we can get a copy of the suit and related materials up on fornits, guest?
"There was an investigation for 2 years. Got confessions too. Anybody want to argue this? Aspen settled on this one for fear of media attention. Only one person remained at Lonestar after Matt died. What does that tell you? Yes, a settlement. Mother agreed to a settlement so she could speak out against these places and not be gagged for years while Aspen appealed. The settlement was a huge record too because of all the "facts" that were found and the negligence. Money never replaces a child, but it sure hits these corporations where it counts and gets them to make a few changes. It also lets Matt's mother speak out for all the kids that don't make it, commit suicide, live with all the negative brain washing for the rest of their lives, and all the stink that goes with it. She is not sitting back on some yacht giving orders to butlers. She is fighting back for those who can't."