Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: TRUCKER on November 04, 2003, 08:04:00 PM
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After spending some time reading the various topics around the Seed forum I have come to the conclusion that this site is for people that feel they were injustly done.I am glad that this site is available for those who need it.However, I am looking for those who have come away from the Seed with no ill feelings and feel that the experience turned out to be a positive one! I know tht I am going to face a lot of grief from the forum in posing this question but why not? For every negative there is a positive.Looking for another good rap session.
TRUCKER
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Well Trucker, good luck. I think you may need it. Here's the thing. I know of one person, other than yourself, who feels the way you do. The trouble is that, in order to keep on believing what he believes (not just about The Seed, but other issues as well) he has to keep himself pretty well insulated from critical examination of his beliefs.
As a result, he's very difficult to keep in contact with as he's always getting indignant and changing his contact info to avoid what he calls harassing conversations. That SOB has got to be one of the most harassed people I've ever known, aside from the Semblers and Miller Newton.
I think you're going to have a hard time finding public discussion favorable to The Seed. But, of course, all points of view are welcome here, even those that tend to draw criticizm. So you're welcome back whenever you want.
Stay away from the lot lizards!
The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
-- Patrick Henry
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fuck off. :wave:
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::kiss::
Morli
oops, that was for TRUCKER. :em:
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Oh that didn't come out right...
I thought I hit Reply, not edit...
Time's fun when you're having flies.
--Kermit the Frog
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Trucker, you are welcome to solicit positive comments about the seed here. This forum is for all topics relating to the seed.
From time to time people drop in that seem to think the seed was positive for them. The problem, as I see it, is they usually approach the subject with a blind eye and don't wanna here the truth about thought reform or acknowledge that they were a member of a cult. Funny, ask any cult member or ex cult member, be it the seed, the moonies, or a scientologist, and they will all point the finger at other groups and exclaim "who me, I was NEVER in a cult".
Hahaha.
So be it...let the discussion begin.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-- Aristotle
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I'm very grateful I went through the Seed Program over thirty years ago. My sister & myself benifited greatly from the whole experience. My father was an alcolohic and my mother was in and out of mental institutions when we were kids and the Seed gave us alot of what we were missing from our lives. We both are very sucessful today and give credit to to Seed for giving us a new begining. We have great families now and have alot of love in our lives today. I think it is easy to put blame on an experience that happened in your life along time ago if you don't really examine the problems that you really have in your life and manifest it into something else. My father eventually went to AA and was sober 25 years before he passed away last year. My Mother also lives a nice life now enjoying her grandkids.
I might ad my younger brothers never got involved in drugs due to my sister and my example. I will always be grateful for the help the Seed gave my family.
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It's wonderful that you are doing so well! It's also good that you don't feel like you missed out as a child due to lack of love, guidance, or parenting. Nor feel like it was stolen from you. You probably never had a drug/alcohol problem to begin with, but hey, you guys are some of the very few to come out "good" so to speak. I can think of one girl in particular who I was in the program with who didn't have a drug problem, but swore she was an alcoholic/addict. (Of course) She did very well in her program and graduated in something like 9 months. She went on staff. To this day is sober and owes her life to Straight, Inc. Ahhh, the non-resistant ones! Fresh malleable brain meat! A programmer?s wet dream. ::hehehmm::
:smile: I'm glad it worked out for you!
History gives us a kind of chart, and we dare not surrender even a small rushlight in the darkness. The hasty reformer who does not remember the past will find himself condemned to repeat it.
--John Buchan
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Trucker, was that anon post yours?
Just curious.
There's no biochemical test to distinguish the so-called manic-depressive person from the elated or despondent football fan. Nor is there any resan to assume the manic-depressive's inner experience is driven by twisted molecules while the football fan's is driven, at worst, by twisted values
Dr. Peter Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry
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No It was not Trucker, it was me. I find it disheartining that you can not just accept that good things came from the program. It seems you always make references like "Fresh Malleable Brain Meat" to put down others sucess. I'm very sorry that you feel the way that you do and I do wish the best for you and hope you work out your problems. I did enter the seed as a senior in High School at 18 years old. I had done drugs for 2 years my younger sister was shooting Heroin at 16 years old - she now lives in another State and is married to a State Senator drug free for over 30 years. I really do hope you can move on with your life and be happy - maybe if you did something nice for others you would feel better about yourself and just plain enjoy life now. I think there is still hope for you and wish you the best of Luck. ::boohoo::
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On 2003-11-05 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No It was not Trucker, it was me. I find it disheartining that you can not just accept that good things came from the program. It seems you always make references like "Fresh Malleable Brain Meat" to put down others sucess. I'm very sorry that you feel the way that you do and I do wish the best for you and hope you work out your problems. I did enter the seed as a senior in High School at 18 years old. I had done drugs for 2 years my younger sister was shooting Heroin at 16 years old - she now lives in another State and is married to a State Senator drug free for over 30 years. I really do hope you can move on with your life and be happy - maybe if you did something nice for others you would feel better about yourself and just plain enjoy life now. I think there is still hope for you and wish you the best of Luck. ::boohoo:: "
Ahem. I asked if it was trucker only because I was curious. whoever you are, WELCOME.
Now that that is out of the way, the "fresh meat" comment wasn't mine, so you are free to apologize at any time...
As far as working out my problems, you must be a little more specific...which problems? I am a very happy well adjusted single father and business owner and travel extensively and live on the water....problems? Please elaborate if you would.
Congratulations on you and your sisters success. Success is measured in many ways and if you measure success as marrying a senator, well...congratulations again.
And I am doing something nice for other people, I am providing a forum where people like you can lash out at people you don't know and practice the "Come Down" techniques they learned at the Seed on complete strangers.
Isn't that nice???? :grin:
When an innocent Californian millionaire gets killed by a drug squad
trying to seize his house with a bogus search warrant, people better ask themselves if they really want to turn their cops into money-makers.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-11-05 12:04 ]
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-11-05 12:57 ]
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I should have said "meat like comments" I'm very glad you live on the water and travel alot and own your own business -as far as lashing out, I wouln't call it that at all- although you do apear to be the "KING" of lashing out.
If you would like an apoligy for mistaking you for another, I graciously apoligize. Possibly you owe a few apologies your self. :idea:
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apology accepted.
May your days be joyfully challenging and your words artfully true
-- Ginger Warbis SMA, `00
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On 2003-11-05 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
I find it disheartining that you can not just accept that good things came from the program.
Look long and hard, ANON, and you will not see me saying that. What I have said, and what I truly believe, is that the program was very harmfull for very many people, and the few that were "helped" or believe their lives were saved, well, in my opinion, does not offset those that jumped off the skyway or killed themselves in various other ways, including the young man in Ft lauderdale that blew his brains out before group one day. Nor does it negate the negative pysch damage done to many many people and the feelings of shame and worthlessness many people carry to this day.
I am one of the lucky ones. I had the facilities to deal with my problems that aroze from my internment in Cultic mind control at age 14. It took years and cost me my childhood, but dammit I came thru the other side. Everyone else hasn't been so lucky, and this site is dedicated to them.
It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson
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On 2003-11-05 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No It was not Trucker, it was me. I find it disheartining that you can not just accept that good things came from the program.
Well, for most of us, it's like watching Charles Manson presented with the keys to the city. It's especially heartbreaking to those of us who's families were permanently divided by The Seed. Glad you had such a nice time, but you obviously don't give a flyin' run at a rollin' doughnut about all the harm it did to the rest of us.
Or, to draw another analogy, let's say you're raving about the wonderful sandwich your eating and I tell you it was made from a nice slice of my leg, which was taken against my will. The decent thing to do, in response to this new info, is probably not to call me names and insist that the sandwich is so damned good as to be worth my sacrifice.
I'm very sorry that you feel the way that you do and I do wish the best for you and hope you work out your problems. ... ::boohoo:: "
Gee, could you be a little more condescending, buddy? Why would you suggest Greg's not happy or has problems? I know him. He's a happy guy. Your well wishes seem most insincere. I would guess that, if the 'problem' we're talking about solving is the continued operation of the Synanon based juvenile gulags, I'd guess you most certainly do not wish to see it solved.
Web pages are like babies -- creation involves a level of enthusiasm that does not necessarily carry over into maintenance.
--Joe Chew
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"Or, to draw another analogy, let's say you're raving about the wonderful sandwich your eating and I tell you it was made from a nice slice of my leg, which was taken against my will. The decent thing to do, in response to this new info, is probably not to call me names and insist that the sandwich is so damned good as to be worth my sacrifice."
now THATS funny, and right about on target.
BTW, in case anyone here doesn't know, somejoker is me, I use it to do my moderating duties.
Greg.
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Greg I,m glad you are out of the closet. Doesn't Honesty feel good. It cleanses the soul. ::birthday::
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I am not quite sure why, ANON, I seem to be bothering you so much, but in honor of your new presense here, I am attaching a quote from another person "helped" at the seed.
"I realized that, even with all the abuse, all the sleep deprivation, the all-night "coming down on me" sessions with my oldcomer and his cronies, the little and big humiliations, the thing that had really damaged me the most, the thing that had really hurt and twisted me up the worst, was that I had participated in my own brainwashing. I had tried, sincerely tried, to make the Seed's catechism true for me. That is, I had BETRAYED MY OWN EMOTIONAL REALITY . . . I had been an accomplice in my own mind-rape at some point, by trying to convince MYSELF that they were right, and that I had only read books like Siddhartha to be "cool," had never had any real friends, and, you know, the whole litany, that I had been utterly worthless and "full of shit" before the Seed and that I was grateful to the Seed for bestowing authenticity on my wretched self."
Marc Wordsmith
Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted.
--Thomas Jefferson
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On 2003-11-05 13:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg I,m glad you are out of the closet. Doesn't Honesty feel good. It cleanses the soul. ::birthday:: "
I only posted that for the benefit of the very few that didn't know..like you. For the most part, it is common knowledge here at the SDF.
Hey, anon, Try this....why don't YOU come out of the closet...pick a user name, stop trying to start a fight with me, and lets talk!
Welcome again.
Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice.
--Hearst newspapers nationwide, 1934
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I,m just amazed how fast you reply, and with such vigor. I think you channel all your energy here. I hope others you know arn't neglected because of it. :???:
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You know,I have attempted several times to invite you in for reasoned and rational conversation, but I am tiring of trying with you. I happen to be sitting in front of my computer right now. Oftentimes, I have it on at work for up to 8 hours at a time and it is sincerely my pleasure to moderate this site. Problem with that as well?
Tonight and tomorrow I will not be responding so fast, as tonight I have a date, and tomorrow I am leaving the country for several days.
As for you, you seem to have some lingering anger problems. Ever tried to trace them to their source.....?
Scoundrels are predictable, but you're a man of honor and that frightens me.
Robert Heinlein, Glory Road.
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I do need to remain anonymous for family reasons. I do not mean you any harm, honestly. I do wish you well and I think you are trying to do the right thing in your mind. I just happen not to agree with you. I do not live in a bubble. There are all kinds of people in this world with all sorts of different stories. I hope this forum can help some work out their problems. I honestly have nothing but good memories I spent alot of years being involved at the seed and alot of good came from it. I myself was a nut case teenager had my stomach pumped contemplated suicide on numerous occasions. Peace I mean you no harm.
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Thanks, but even if you meant me harm, you really don't have that power. You do have the power to talk in an adult and rational manner and once again I invite you into this forum with those intentions.
Anon, you can remain anon and still pick a user name. I am quite certain, for example, that trucker hasn't blown his cover with the "Trucker" moniker.
As far as coming out of the closet, why is it important that your family not know you post here? Are you like so many others, hiding this secret from your kids and/or spouse?
What exactly was your involvement with the seed for all those years?
Do you think you were in a cult? Do you understand that cults use essentially similar (but way toned down) techniques?
Do you understand that many people were hurt, sometimes severly, in various ways by their involvement in The Seed? Are you aware of suicides by seedlings and seed graduates?
Do you know that I have been contacted by people that were involved for over a decade that were devastated by it?
Are you aware that Art still hangs around his inner core staffers to this day?
Thank you for answering, and I am walking out the door and may not be able to respond until tomorrow or the next day when I visit an internet cafe. At that time, I hope we have approached a better way of communicating.Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.
--
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On 2003-11-05 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No It was not Trucker, it was me. I find it disheartining that you can not just accept that good things came from the program. It seems you always make references like "Fresh Malleable Brain Meat" to put down others sucess. I'm very sorry that you feel the way that you do and I do wish the best for you and hope you work out your problems. I did enter the seed as a senior in High School at 18 years old. I had done drugs for 2 years my younger sister was shooting Heroin at 16 years old - she now lives in another State and is married to a State Senator drug free for over 30 years. I really do hope you can move on with your life and be happy - maybe if you did something nice for others you would feel better about yourself and just plain enjoy life now. I think there is still hope for you and wish you the best of Luck. ::birthday:: Whoopadeedoo!!! Sounds pretty important!
*high fives you*
:roll:
One has to multiply thoughts to the point where there aren't enough
policemen to control them
--Stanislaw Lec
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Thanks for the post.
TRUCKER
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Im back from out of the country. Anon, sorry you choose not to answer my questions I left for you in my last post.
Unfortunately, this is typical. I have noticed a pattern here. A pro Seed or seed derivative program person comes on one of these boards and posts praise for the program. When it isn't met with agreement, they attack the person whom disagrees with them. Alas, the issues are never addressed and they never critically explore what happened to them so many years ago.
Sad for them.
But I agree with Trucker, thanks for your posts, even the negative ones.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
-- Dave Barry
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Sorry for the late reply, I did not kow I would be come down on for not answering quickly- I too have a life.
Answers
1) Political Reasons
2)I received help there & tried to care about others & help out where I could
3) No, I don't think It was a cult. Possibly some same techniques but so does the army navy marines and any organized group like the boy scouts. I believe alot of love and help was given out on a daily basis.
4)I feel very sorry for anyone that kills themselves and for families of them. Unfortunatly people kill themselves everyday - people that seem well adjusted at one time years later can develope problems and who knows what set of circumstances can change a person to do what they do. People unfortunatly kill people everyday, alot of marriages end in disaster and it all started with love.
5)No
6) No, I didn't but sometimes friends are friends for life.
I don't have all the answers all I know is I got alot of needed help and always felt like people had my best interests at heart.
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Sorry for the late reply, I did not kow I would be come down on for not answering quickly- I too have a life.
Answers
1) Political Reasons
2)I received help there & tried to care about others & help out where I could
3) No, I don't think It was a cult. Possibly some same techniques but so does the army navy marines and any organized group like the boy scouts. I believe alot of love and help was given out on a daily basis.
4)I feel very sorry for anyone that kills themselves and for families of them. Unfortunatly people kill themselves everyday - people that seem well adjusted at one time years later can develope problems and who knows what set of circumstances can change a person to do what they do. People unfortunatly kill people everyday, alot of marriages end in disaster and it all started with love.
5)No
6) No, I didn't but sometimes friends are friends for life.
I don't have all the answers all I know is I got alot of needed help and always felt like people had my best interests at heart.
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by the way, sorry for spelling errors. You should add a spell check to the system-
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Are you offering to pay me to intigrate a spell checker? I'd be happy to talk about it. I'd even be willing to make it a 'sponsored by _____' feature.
Otherwise, I just use my favorite text editor if I feel the need to be very precise. Most of the time, no one who's interested in the substance of your words is really bothered by the spelling, grammar or miscellaneous typoes.
A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
Thomas Jefferson
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Thanks for the belated reply anon, and Ginger is absolutely correct, no one here cares about your spelling.
I find your responses very interesting. When I have some time I will respond in more depth. Kind of busy at work right now.
Thought that is silenced is always rebellious. Majorities, of course, are often mistaken. This is why the silencing of minorities is necessarily dangerous. Criticism and dissent are the indispensable antidote to major delusions.
-- ALAN BARTH, The Loyalty of Free Men, 1951.
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2003-11-11 06:04 ]
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Pro or con - I'm looking for people who are willing to discuss their Seed experiences with me! I use first names only - and have fun creating new names for those of you who are unwilling to give your real names. Shoot, you don't even have to tell me your real name!!
And for that particular someone who told me to "call when you tell me to" - I did call, when you said - repeatedly, in fact, and I left my number. Any time you want to try and coordinate with me, I'm still wanting to interview you! (You know who you are and you better get in touch with me!). [Please!]. :roll:
And for the really paranoid: PO Box 534, Bristow, VA 20136. You can be as anonymous as you want and say what you want!
But I still need more Seed people!! PLEASE people! You chat on these boards - why not chat with me? I WON'T expose you. I only want to tell your story - pro or con - life saved or life destroyed - I ask the questions and you answer. No hassle, no argument, no judgement, no fight. I ask, you give your opinion, your feelings, your thoughts and I listen. C'mon! What's so hard about that? Give me a chance. If you don't like it, you can always hang up!
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I can,t imagine that you would find many people who truly feel in their hearts what art and his thugs have done was right. I truly feel that they did nothing but distroy families and many lives. art and his followers thought he was God. truth is just the complete opposite. They have destroyed so many futures. I feel so sad for anyone who experienced the brain washing and manipulation that has gone on and still probaly continues to this day. many seedling have sacraficed getting married and having children for this perverted power king. this is so sad. many will never know what they have missed. art is a criminal. i was in the seed for a short period and met my husband there. we had a son and moved to florida so my husband could return to the seed. art controlled every bit of our lives even after my husband graduated the program. i was not in the program but aloud them to manipulate us. we needed to ask permission to visit home. it finally ended after five years of torture when i got pregnat with my second child. art and libby wanted me to abort. there was no way. they tried everything to get me to abort.
we moved back to cleveland. i became a nurse and ended up having four great children. my oldest 21. and my child to be aborted is now a beautiful 16 yr old honor roll student, cheerleader, socker player, in nursing vocation with many goals set ahead of her. libby she just wasnt a little piece of jelly that should have been aborted. you and art should have been aborted and it would have saved a lot of pain in peoples live. i cant believe art is still living. he should have gotten the electric chair a long time ago.
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unbelievable story, and welcome to our site. Many people who were in the Seed do not realize the huge cultic pressures that the "inner circle" people were under. Many people went in, graduated and promptly never thought about what was really going on. Those like you that had Art and his croonies controlling your day to day lives really understand that the Seed was a viscious cult, and little more.
Any Irishman who doubts the reality of selective enforcement ought to take just a moment to comtemplate the etymology of the term "paddy waggon".
--Antigen
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i always had arts number. it is very difficult to fight off your family when your under age. When the jim jone massacre happened i thought of art immediately. you know we always drank the koolaid. waco texas, the seed, all the same. art indirectly took a lot of our lives. im pretty much recovered from the damage that they caused. ive gone on. my heart goes out to those who are still being victimized, the families that have vanished due to art and massive ego. powerless we all were made to make him think in his head he was so powerful. he can fool some of the people sometimes but he cant fool everyone.
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I was in SR84 in the early 80's. I remember, a guy coming back into the program. He had a wife and a small child [son] maybe one yr. His wife was not a seedling, I am a bit foggy on this. But I remeber, feeling very sorry for her being an outsider of sorts. The baby was blonde and would come over and swim in our pool. The wife would struggle to play football on the beach in Dania, I remember she hurt her leg. Are you her?
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To both Anons above, welcome to this forum. Please consider choosing a user name for future posts. You can still remain anon this way, but your posts can a cohesiveness and mean more when a user name is behind it. Just for consideration...
I really appreciate having you two here. There are many people that went thru the seed that don't know the other story, the "inner circle" Seed experience, and you two can really shed some light on those experiences, those Jim Jonsey days, Art reigning over your personal lives, the days at the beach, at Art's house, asking permission to date even after you graduated, Art financing inner core members into business, etc.
Please share these stories with us and thank you once again.There's no biochemical test to distinguish the so-called manic-depressive person from the elated or despondent football fan. Nor is there any resan to assume the manic-depressive's inner experience is driven by twisted molecules while the football fan's is driven, at worst, by twisted values
Dr. Peter Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry
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I was wondering what kind of reason LIbby and Art gave you for their wanting you to abort. MY GOD! The lengths these people went to.! What was your husband's response at that time?
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I was wrong. the couple I was remebering were from Kentucky, I know who you are . You had dark hair , you became very overheated during an endless baseball game behind SR84. I remember you and your husband had been thru the program before and moved to Cleveland. Then he came back on the front row....I have wondered about several people who 'vanished' Roger, K.P. they were both from the Cleveland area. I hope you are well, happily away from the control of the Seed.
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I too hope you are well. When I was 15, there was this beautiful intelligent girl had gone thru the seed...never really used drugs before the Seed. Her and I used to Go Bowling and hang a little. Truth be told I kind of had a crush on her, but she incessently talked about the seed and Art Barker and eventually we drifted away from our friendship, Then she left St Pete. A few years later, after my ordeal with the Seed, my father and the St pete police, I went into the lauderhill mall and there she was. I was excited to see her and tried to talk to her, but all she would say to me is "you need to get straight." and that she was working for the Seed in Lauderdale.
Anyone remember Maggie Canfield and know where she is today? Maggie, if you are reading this, HELLO and pleaes post. You were a great kid when I knew you.
There never was a good war or a bad peace.
--Benjamin Franklin, (1773)
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reply to the abortion that libbi wanted me to have. she stated that if i had the baby my husband would go back to using drugs. my thoughts are that they wanted complete control. why haven't other married seedling had kids? another reason was my father-in-law was well to do and every time my husband would get laid off from work he was told to sit in the group and to call his dad for money instead of looking for another job. my in-laws recieved many letters for donations from the seed. lord only knows how much my in-laws donated till i put a halt to it. my husband wasn't even on the program anymore. they wanted to hook us but i wasnt going for it. we were told that we would never amount to anything. well art barker if you are read this you can kiss my ... i really don't waste my time thinking about all the negative things. i do think about all the people that have been victimized like us and where are they? what happened to them? so many where there one day and gone the next without an explaination except the f..... up. my son was a little blonde. he was expected at the age of 2 to act like a seedling. many of attempts of molding him were made. he is now 21. healthy . he does not recall much of the seed or their ways thank God! i do have brown hair. the other couple that you were think of had a little boy with brown hair and the wife was a seedling. the husband was not in the seed till after his wife was in the program for a while. they were in the military. my husband is originally from ontario. im from cleveland. we have been married for 23 yrs. we have the four children and live a very normal life. we make our own dissions in life and have for a long time. we dont see many people from the seed anymore. when we got married most of our wedding party were people from the seed. a couple from columbus area and some from cleveland. two from the cleveland area who i just found out has passed. there are many who i cared so much about that are no longer in our lives. i miss some friendships. i always wondered if there were others who have felt the way i did. no one would ever discuss their true feelings. seedling have lived the biggest lies. bye for now.
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seedlings have lived big lies, anon, but so have other cult members. The Seed was actually two cults in one, and you were in the most damaging aspect of the Seed, the inner core close to Art. This society is chock full of ex moonies, ex seedlings, straightlings,hare krisna, EST and other cults. Many don't even realize they were in a dangerous group, that was always the other group. We all live a lie to some extent.
You sound like you have come thru the other side, and I am happy and proud of you for overcoming what some never do.
GregFL
BTW, did you ever here my story about Art by the Pool and Me some 25 years ago? I am dying for some one else to step up and tell what they know about this event. It was a big deal for me and I am sure it had to be a big deal at the Seed.
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Just read this entire subject heading for the first time. Amazed by the postings about the seed as something positive. I do not think of the seed as a positive experience in my life! They
stole my mind, seperated me from my family and kept me living in constant fear long after I had graduated. I was twelve when my parents put me in there so when the staff and my oldcomers said they could read my mind--see right through me-- I believed it. Unlike some other people, who said they eventually hit a point where they realized they were just faking it I never cam to that realization. I wish I had. Instead I struggled to control my mind, secretly fearing that I would be discovered and put back on the front row for nothing worse then then thinking some guy was cute or not making my bed. I've always said it was brainwashing I've always said it was more like a cult then a treatment center. This site has helped me pinpoint more clearly why that is true.
I have chronic muscle pain and a therapist once suggested to me it may have been caused by the constant stress and tension I experienced at the seed.
I was in group therapy for survivors of sexual abuse and kept wondering why everyone else said they felt safer together talking about those things but I did not. Finally I realized that because of the seed a group is not a safe place for me, I was abused by a group.
Now to my mixed feelings. Unlike many of you I do not think of my pre-seed friends fondly either. They were mostly high school boys who molested me, girls who regularly turned on me, boys my age, who I once saw dislocated a girl's hip while trying to gang rape her in a boy scout fun house at a school fair(yes, they were boy scouts.) I remember when I went back to school I was happy that I couldn't talk to them. I remember that it was suddenly easy to have no friends where previosly it had been so important that I ended up with the worst friends imaginable. In my less guarded moments, I wished I had just done it myself and avoided the seed but I am pretty sure I wouldn't have been able to. I feared the seed more than I feared my old friends and because of that I learned that my old gang couldn't hurt me if I didn't have anything to do with them. Sometimes it feels like six of one half dozen of another abuse by my friends or abuse in the seed. The seed at least had an end although I realize the damage is endless. It took me about five years to admit to myself that I hated it there and about ten to admit that it was an abusive cult.
Does anyone else have these sort of mixed feelings?
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I never really was conflicted because I was so angry about the seed and the lack of understanding and rejection I got for fighting the conformity, but I understand those that do.
I feel bad that you had to choose one abusive situation over another that on the surface appeared more abusive. It is tragic that we all share a lost childhood, but nice that we can talk about it among people who understand.
As for not feeling safe in Groups, After the Seed I spent considerable effort not allowing myself to think about what I went thru, but I never resloved why after leaving the Seed I always felt panic whelling up in me whenever I got in any group, especially groups seperated in two with a speaker. Be it church, rotary club meetings, whatever, I still to this day, 30 years later, usually excuse myself and go outside until the meeting is over. The experience was that powerfull to my young pysche that I carry forward to this day remnants, scars, that were put there so many years ago. These church and other groups somehow now enable my flight mechanism and represent danger to me emotionally, even tho intellectually I know better.
Thanks for your post Pigeon.
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Yeah, groups really make me contrary, argumenative. I think it's the flight or fight response. I couldn't fight before, so I fight now.
When I was in group therapy I was always "the truth teller," which was fine but it's sort of isolating to always be confrontational.
When I first realized what I had really gone thru in the seed I had this fantasy that I would go back(graduates always welcomed, right?)put up my hand and tell them off. Never actually tried to do it, way to scarey.
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I may be one of the few people who ever really got to tell Art off to his face. There is a thread here somewhere called my showdown at poolside.
It really was a important thing for me to do, kind of empowered me, but I came real close to physically hitting him. That was many years ago and I am a much different, much less angry person. I would love to chat up the old guy now and pick his mind. Hell, I would even buy him dinner and pick up the tab just for the right to ask him some questions... What motivated him, where did he get some of his wackier ideas like boxing rings, "motivating", and the synanon style come down on your raps?. What new york treatment facility had he been involved with?
These questions bug the shit out of me...
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AA, its a simple as that- synonon had nothing to do with it-I can tell from your past postings you really believe that but there is no truth to it-
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AA, its a simple as that- synonon had nothing to do with it-I can tell from your past postings you really believe that but there is no truth to it-
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On 2004-02-20 05:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"AA, its a simple as that- synonon had nothing to do with it-I can tell from your past postings you really believe that but there is no truth to it-"
Where do you get your information?
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Unfortunately you are incorrect.
AA never forced its member to sit in chairs 12 hours a day and never rewarded family affection for progression.
aa never restricted food intake as a therapy
aa never used sleep deprivation to weaken one for conditioning.
aa never requires you to stop talking to outsiders.
aa never "breaks" its member and then rebuilds it in the image of the group.
aa never required worship of the leader
aa never refused to let you read a book or call your family
aa members arent required to Motivate and sit straight, eyes to the front and their backs not touching the chairs or face punishment.
aa never did many things that were considered part of "treatment" in the seed.
It is anything but "as simple as that", anon. I am well aware that many techniques..the steps, serenity prayer, confessionals, etc. came from AA, and that Art continues even to this day to chant this mantra, that it all came from AA, but that is obviously totally falicious.
Tell us why you think you can make such a conclusionary statement with such certainty, Anon, and if you are new here..
welcome to this forum..
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-02-20 15:42 ]
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YEAH I KNOW MAGGIE.
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Know Maggie or Knew Maggie? IF you know her know, how is she doing?
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Know her Know?
I mean, know her now......
sorry
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I had many good & bad experiences there. I would not be alive if it weren't for them. However, it's now AA's 12 step work that has truly improved my quality of life & is beginning to erase some of the PTSD signs & symptoms created by the seed.
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Good for you. I feel bad for "Ginger"? too...the seed did me much harm too but it saved my life until I found AA & got into a real program. Now I'm taking all the harm done & turning into lessons learned...resentments/anger/rage gone & I can help others get to the other side...there is healing...if I'm willing, open & honest to do the footwork...there is a kind, loving, trustworthy GOD & his name isn't Art Barker. But I love you & forgive you Art.
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My boyfriend, a very intelligent/wise man said that it sounds like many of the people writing in to the seed/straight sites are all attempting to go through some type of "deprogramming"...hmmm
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perhaps 30 years later, they are just trying to understand what really happened in that bizzare little cult.
And I would agree that many people were programmed, set their memories on autopilot and never looked back. That is where you get comments like "it saved my life" when no evidence exists that this is a true statement.
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EVIDENCE: The data on which a conclusion or judgement can be established.My evidence, every straight day and not in jail. Thanks to others who helped me believe in myself when I didnt.
TRUCKER
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So then, how do you explain the vast majority of kids from the `70's who also did drugs, gave the establishment the finger and sometimes found trouble that way but who grew up just fine w/o any help from The Seed? Isn't that equally compelling evidence that The Program is nothing but snakeoil?
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
It is wrong to leave a stumbling block in the road once it has tripped you.
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You are forgetting that most people misuse the term EVIDENCE.
What they really mean is that they only accept those things which tend to point to their forgone conclusion. Like Trucker here who would be dead, insane or in jail without the Seed, Nevermind that he did drugs after getting out, nevermind that most of us posting here continued or escalated our drug use/abuse after graduating.
Nevermind the perponderance of people who post on these boards that claim they were physcologically harmed by their time in thought reform "rehab".
He is sober right now and that must be EVIDENCE the Seed worked so many years ago.
Evidence...one of the most misunderstood and misused words out there.
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Yeah, I know. I sometimes wonder if Trucker is my brother. Every time I talk to him, which is around once in 5 years or so anymore, he's just recently, finally figured out how to use the tools good ol'e Art so graciously gave him. Every damned time!
I wouldn't mind his eccentricity so much if those tools didn't include a need to condemn and deride me for rejecting the religion.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid
of the dark. The real tragedy of life is
when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato