Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Jimmy Cusick on December 04, 2004, 06:44:00 PM
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Hi Friends,
I just arrived home from 19 days in Glenbeigh Rehabilitation Center, outside Cleveland. My drinking and cocaine use got out of control and I am newly clean and sober and plan to stay that way for at least the rest of the day. I thought alot about the seed. I miss the seed experience with all my heart and soul as I relive the summer of 1974 sitting on those hard chairs in the first few rows of the rap sessions. Present day rehab centers are pathetic and pitifully vacant when it comes to feeling like a part of them. They remain "for profit" corporations, so was Art Barker. The professional councellors are egotistical so were the seed staff members. The classes are very similiar to the seeds rap sessions and I fell aseep several times while trying to pay attention (same deal at the seed, they expected us to stay awake from 10:00a.m. to 10:00p.m.
My problem is that I am "FILLED" with feelings and issues and the rehab center treated me like a moron talking about A.A.'s powerlessness and unmanageable and telling me to just put the plug in the jug and turn my life over to a higher power and go to meetings and everything will be "Hunky Dory",,,,,,,,,,,I never told anyone there about the seed because they would never believe me.
I have so many issues and I hold them inside and carry them around. When I was at the seed, I talked about almost everything that bothered me and vented to other friends. Now I remain very alone. I dont have any friends and I dont trust people,,,,,,,,,,,,kinda sad ya ?
I plan to stay sober (a day at a time) for the moment. My brain cannot handle alcohol or drugs and that is a shame because I appreciated there emotional pain killing ability. Its time to reach up into the clouds and creat a "GOD" that I find loving and helpful.
P.S. ( I secretly wish I were a seedling again)
Keep the faith
Jimmy
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On 2004-12-04 15:44:00, Jimmy Cusick wrote:
When I was at the seed, I talked about almost everything that bothered me and vented to other friends. Now I remain very alone. I dont have any friends and I dont trust people,,,,,,,,,,,,
Hey Jimmy,
I can understand where you're at now (notice I didn't say "I can relate to that")....
I was very fortunate in that my post-Seed life was fairly free of problems... at least as far as drugs & alcohol go. The main reason for that was the support I got from my "friends" in the Seed. Others in my town who graduated helped me an awful lot to learn to do without drugs.
I too fondly remember those times with my friends (not so much in the rap sessions which I didn't really like).
Seems to me what you need most of all is a friend or group of friends that can understand you & tell you what you need to hear. Also, just to be friends.
Do you have any close friends in Cleveland to talk too? If you're in AA or have been there in the past... that may be a good place to get some support AND it will put you in a position to maybe help others which of course can help you & them.
We can't go back to 1974, but some of the positive things that we experienced can be repeated. You may have some friends right now who would like to help you through this period? Or you may need to find others?
I hope you work out something that works for you and as you know, this group can help a little. A lot of us have been through what you're going through & care about you.
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Yes, this sounds very familiar but, in truth, some of us living or have lived where you're at right now. Contrary to some who post here, and given this website's general negative slant, I believe there were many of us in need of immediate help. Even though I quit "shooting drugs", I too, have struggeled w/ demons and alcoholisim over the years. But, I'm also aware I have a very addictive personality, so I have to keep everything in check - ALL THE TIME. Know what I mean?? I feel for you if you are struggling and you know what you need to do!!!
Contact me [email protected]
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damn, all these "cured seedlings" snorting coke, drinking and generally "powerless" over drugs.
I guess it really didn't work.
The seeds step one....Admit you are powerless.
It seems some here truly believe that. So sad for them.
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On 2004-12-05 08:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"damn, all these "cured seedlings" snorting coke, drinking and generally "powerless" over drugs.
I guess it really didn't work.
The seeds step one....Admit you are powerless.
It seems some here truly believe that. So sad for them.
"
With this kind of post, I'd have to say that YOU seem more sad to me than any of the others. My heart goes out to you.
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Jimmy, I'm sorry to hear you're having a rough time. But honestly, the best thing to do is to skip all the self scrutiny, anguishing and flogging and just get back to what you were doing before you took that diversion.
And next time, if there is a next time, try not to believe that old saw about plummetting powerlessly to the bottom. It just ain't so, unless you believe it.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid
of the dark. The real tragedy of life is
when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
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And next time, if there is a next time, try not to believe that old saw about plummetting powerlessly to the bottom. It just ain't so, unless you believe it.
Glad to hear you are unaware of "plummetting powerlessly to the bottom" but don't diss others who have seen that darkness. You never did or you wouldn't be making such a crass comment...
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Antigen- you absolutely have no idea what you are talking about- Can I ask Antigen have you ever used drugs and had a serious problem with them. I think not. Maybe you should take up painting or ceramics and scrap the soap box.
Jimmy hang in there you have the tools use them they will work for you. I am a firm believer that if you are looking for help you will get it somewhere somehow. Usually when you are just about ready to give up it happens, or that is my experience. I do believe in a higher power, there is a God or power for good and you will connect. You will find a friend at AA. Keep looking, attend. For me as a teenager the Seed was a power for good it saved me from a very disfunctional family. I was doomed for failure and it turned my life around. Nothing is perfect. I certainly am not. Life is good you do need to look for the good and search it out it will meet you.
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Jimmy, please don't buy into the learned helplessness of the 12 Steps. Here is some good info on that:
http://orange-papers.org/orange-powerless.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-powerless.html)
It talks at length about the learned helplessness that comes from Stepcraft and how incredibly dangerous it is.
Don't despair and DON'T GIVE UP. A lot of us felt this way after discovering how duped we were and what a destructive force had been lurking in our lives. Remember, KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!!!! Good luck!!
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Powerless Over Alcohol
by A. Orange
Step One: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.
The A.A. First Step, where people are supposed to "admit" that they are "powerless over alcohol", is a hoax.
People are not "powerless" over their desires to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, or take drugs. Being sick, and having a messed-up life from too much drinking, is just that -- being sick. It isn't "powerlessness." Having difficulties quitting is not "powerlessness", it's having difficulties quitting. Saying that your drinking has really gotten out of control doesn't mean that you are powerless over it.
Quitting can be hard, extremely difficult and painful, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible, or that you can't do it. Remember: When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
The "powerless" doctrine of Alcoholics Anonymous is one of their most central religious beliefs. It is one of those points where A.A. radically departs from Christianity or any other mainstream religion of the world, and enters the bizarre realm of cult religion. A.A. teaches that people are incapable of running their own lives and must surrender control of their lives to the A.A. group and a "Higher Power" who will control them, and do the quitting for them. Thus the real purpose of Step One is to prepare the new members for Steps Two and Three, where they will confess that they are insane, and then surrender their wills and their lives to "the care of God" and the Alcoholics Anonymous group.
One of the biggest problems with the Twelve-Step program is the learned helplessness caused by the First Step, where people are taught to confess that they are "powerless over alcohol." This leads many people to believe that once they have a drink, that a full-blown relapse and total loss of self-control is inevitable and unavoidable.4
The other half of Step One, which says that "our lives had become unmanageable", leads some people to believe that they shouldn't even try to manage their lives. Step Two is just as bad: it teaches people that they are insane, and that only a Supernatural Being can restore them to sanity -- which means that they are helpless, and cannot heal themselves. Then Step Three teaches a lifestyle of passive dependency, where A.A. members turn control of their wills and their lives over to "the care of God as we understood Him", and they expect God to run their lives and solve all their problems for them from then on...
The Big Book tells us that,
It helped me a lot to become convinced that alcoholism was a disease, not a moral issue; that I had been drinking as a result of a compulsion, even though I had not been aware of the compulsion at the time; and that sobriety was not a matter of will power.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 448.
On the contrary, sobriety is most assuredly a matter of will power and self-control. Nobody else is going to do the quitting for you. Nobody else CAN do the quitting for you. Nobody else is going to hold your hand every Saturday night.
I now remembered what my alcoholic friends had told me, how they had prophesied that if I had an alcoholic mind, the time and place would come -- I would drink again. They had said that though I did raise a defense, it would one day give way before some trivial reason for having a drink. Well, just that did happen and more, for what I had learned of alcoholism did not occur to me at all. I knew from that moment that I had an alcoholic mind. I saw that will power and self-knowledge would not help in those strange mental blank spots. I had never been able to understand people who said that a problem had them hopelessly defeated. I knew then. It was a crushing blow.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About Alcoholism, pages 41-42.
Those friends "prophesied" that alcoholics would suffer from "strange mental blank spots", where the alcoholism would seize control of their minds and "will power and self-knowledge would not help," and they would be drunk before they even realized what was happening. That is a great excuse for relapsing whenever someone craves a drink, but it is totally untrue. It is ridiculous pseudo-science.
THERE IS NO BLANK SPOT, NONE AT ALL.
People may rationalize their actions, or minimize the danger for a few minutes, or make up all kinds of excuses for why it's okay to take that first drink, why it's okay to have just one; they may sometimes even just refuse to think about the negative consequences because they really want that drink, but there is no blank spot where the alcoholic is unable to see that he is deliberately lifting a drink to his mouth, choosing to drink, and that he is voluntarily swallowing it. There is no blank spot where he doesn't have a choice, and can't control his hands or his mouth.
But Bill Wilson insisted that there was, and that he just couldn't help but take a drink whenever he got some cravings. Bill was nuts.
Bill Wilson taught that he was "powerless" over every urge or craving he ever had, no matter whether it was a thirst for alcohol, cravings for cigarettes, greed for money, the desire for self-aggrandizement, the temptation to lie, or the urge to cheat on his wife Lois by having sex with all of the pretty young women who came to the A.A. meetings seeking help. That's an interesting excuse for cheating on your wife, one of the more novel ones, but it doesn't wash.
Bill Wilson was habitually unfaithful to the wife who was working to support him, both before and after sobriety. He invented the A.A. tradition of "thirteenth stepping" the attractive young women who came to A.A. looking for help.
Bill was such an outrageous philanderer that the other elder A.A. members had to form a "Founder's Watch Committee", whose job it was to follow Bill Wilson around, and watch him, and break up budding sexual relationships with the pretty young things before he publicly embarrassed A.A. yet again.3
So just how was Bill's behavior an example of a life "lived on a spiritual basis"? Besides the fact that he hypocritically yammered the words "God" and "working selflessly" all of the time, and held seánces and played with Ouija boards, just what was "spiritual" about William G. Wilson?
In addition, Bill was just echoing the religious doctrine of Frank Buchman, who preached that everyone in the world had been defeated by sin, and was powerless over it, and could only be saved by surrendering his will and life to God and coming under "God-control" (which really meant, under "Frank-control").
Bill Wilson just substituted the word "alcohol" for the word "sin". Bill wanted all of the alcoholics to feel hopeless and powerless over alcohol so that they would despair and surrender to "the care of God as we understood Him", which really meant, "Surrender to the control of your sponsor and the Alcoholics Anonymous group."
Bill continued:
Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power.
The Big Book, Chapter 3, William G. Wilson, More About Alcoholism, page 43.
No effective mental defense? You have to just hope that some Spirit or Higher Power will keep you from drinking? And this is the program whose members claim is the best alcoholism recovery program in the world?
Well, Bill Wilson thought so:
We think this account of our experiences will help everyone to better understand the alcoholic. Many do not comprehend that the alcoholic is a very sick person. And besides, we are sure that our way of living has its advantages for all.
The Big Book, William G. Wilson, the Foreword to the First Edition, page xiii of the 3rd edition.
Aha! There it is:
And besides, the real goal of our program is to get everyone in the world living according to the Buchman-and-Bill religious program, "our way of living."
Bill Wilson also wrote that A.A. members will all testify:
"I simply couldn't stop drinking, and no human being could seem to do the job for me. But when I became willing to clean house and then asked a Higher Power, God as I understood Him, to give me release, my obsession to drink vanished. It was lifted right out of me..."
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, pages 63-64.
Notice the really bizarre complaint:
"I simply couldn't stop drinking, and no human being could seem to do the job for me."
Bill Wilson didn't seem to understand that when you quit drinking, smoking, or drugging, you do it yourself.
No other human being can do the quitting for you.
It's really ridiculous to think that someone else could do the quitting for you. It's insane. But that's what Bill Wilson wanted: an easier, softer way where Somebody Else, like God, did all of the hard work for him, where somebody else did the quitting for him:
We will seldom be interested in liquor.
...
We will see that our new attitude toward liquor has been given to us without any thought or effort on our part. It just comes! That is the miracle of it.
...
We have not even sworn off. Instead, the problem has been removed. It does not exist for us.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, pages 84-85.
Now that is really a delusional cure for alcoholism. Without any thought or effort on our part, God just makes the problem disappear. Poof!
In his next book, Bill Wilson wrote:
We had approached A.A. expecting to be taught self-confidence. Then we had been told that so far as alcohol is concerned, self-confidence was no good whatever; in fact, it was a total liability. Our sponsors declared that we were the victims of a mental obsession so subtly powerful that no amount of human willpower could break it. There was, they said, no such thing as the personal conquest of this compulsion by the unaided will.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 22.
Self-confidence is a total liability?
No amount of human willpower can break the grip of alcoholism on a person?
There is no such thing as the personal conquest of this compulsion by the unaided will?
That is ridiculous and pathetic. Everyone who successfully quits drinking uses his or her own will power. Everyone who stays quit uses his or her own will power every day and every night.
The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:
On their own
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)
So much for the sayings that
"Everybody needs a support group."
and
"Nobody can do it alone."
Most people do.
And note that the Harvard Medical School says that the support of a good spouse is more important than that of a 12-step group. But A.A. says just the opposite:
"Dump your spouse and marry the A.A. group, because A.A. is The Only Way."
Other stories in the Big Book say:
I saw that it was my life that was unmanageable -- not just my drinking.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 471.
I did not know that I had no power over alcohol, that I, alone and unaided, could not stop; that I was on a downgrade, tearing along at full speed with all my brakes gone, and that the end would be a total smash-up, death or insanity.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 471.
Other A.A.-booster literature tells stories like:
I said to my sponsor, "I really can't do this."
He said, "Good."
I said, "No, I mean, I really can't do this, all of the quitting and staying quit, and total abstinence. I just don't have it in me to succeed in a program like that."
He said, "Now you've getting it! That's what the program is all about. You must admit that you are powerless over alcohol."
That is surrender to an attitude of helplessness.
All members who actively work the program readily admit that they are powerless over alcohol.
Alcoholic Thinking: Language, Culture, and Belief in Alcoholics Anonymous, Danny M. Wilcox, page 88.
Why shouldn't I be able to handle this crisis? After all, I had willpower.
Some time later Dr. Anderson was to make me think about the later. "If alcoholism is a disease," he observed, "and I believe it is, what does willpower have to do with it? A cardiac victim can't say, 'I will not have another heart attack,' and will it so; the cancer patient can't say, 'I have willpower and I will rid myself of it, I won't let it get worse.' There is something about alcoholism that is organic -- physical and psychological in the the mind -- and willpower doesn't matter. When the alcoholic, after much suffering, vows he'll never take another drink, he really means it at the time. When he winds up drunk a month later, he wonders what happened; he doesn't realize that willpower has nothing to do with it."
Where Did Everybody Go?, Paul Molloy, page 88.
Notice how the doctor said, "If alcoholism is a disease..." But since alcoholism is not a disease, will power has everything to do with quitting and staying quit.
Obviously, alcoholism is not a disease like cancer or cardiac disease. Alcoholism is not a disease at all. It is habitual, compulsive behavior. They don't build bars and pubs to dispense heart attacks, but they do for alcoholism. You cannot just stop having cancer just by changing your diet, and perhaps abstaining from eating something like white sugar, but you can stop suffering from alcoholism just by abstaining from drinking ethyl alcohol. That is not a disease; that is behavior.
People relapse because they think that they can just nibble a little and get away with it. They imagine that they can do just a few without getting hooked again. They are wrong. See The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster for more on that.
When alcoholics wake up sick and hung over the next morning, and ask, "What happened?", the answer is simple. They took a drink and rationalized that it would be okay. It was so okay that they then had a second one, and that was okay too, and so was a third one, etc... And then after 4 or 5 drinks they stopped counting... And then they wake up the next morning, feeling sick, finding that they drank far more than they had originally intended. But that's just how getting drunk works.
Now there is a genetic factor that changes how alcoholics feel, and how they react to alcohol, but those genes do not force people to drink to excess, and those genes do not make people powerless over alcohol.
While the A.A. preachers are busy making you feel guilty about everything, they will tell you that you were extremely selfish because you chose the bottle over family, friends, career, or anything else. If that is true, then you had the power to choose, which means that you weren't powerless over alcohol at all, which means that the First Step is wrong.
For that matter, the whole blame game is a bait-and-switch stunt. They will start off by telling you that it isn't your fault, alcoholism is not a moral stigma because it's a disease and you are powerless over it. But after you have joined A.A. and become a committed member, then they will tell you that you are guilty and personally responsible for everything.
A.A. evangelists and talking heads like Jillian Sandell (U. of California at Berkeley) actually teach that personal control and personal accomplishment are myths.1 She says that the Abraham Lincoln "log cabin to the White House" story is just another "popular American myth" and that such myths "allow individuals to believe that certain goals can be realized through hard work, merit, or just being a nice person..." Ms. Sandell says that such beliefs are all wrong, and that change is only possible by "turning our lives over to god as we understand him/her", and by working the Twelve Steps, of course:
A central premise of Twelve step programs (and the first 'Step') is to acknowledge the futility of the illusion of individual control. This is a key difference from self-help books and therapy, both of which rest upon the belief in individual power to change situations. Indeed, it is worth just briefly elaborating here some of the premises upon which individual therapeutic practices are based since Twelve Step programs are so different. Self-help books and individual therapy both aim to give the individual a feeling of personal control. They tap into the popular American myth that if we just try hard enough we can be or do anything. This myth has taken on many forms, Cinderella's 'rags to riches' version is one, Abraham Lincoln's 'log cabin to White House' is another, and Marty McFly's 'if you put your mind to it you can achieve anything' (in Spielberg's Back to the Future) is another; but all have the same aim. They allow individuals to believe that certain goals can be realized though hard work, merit or just being a nice person, thereby ignoring the larger societal structures. Issues around class, race, sex, etc. become irrelevant and transcendable. Both self-help books and therapy place all the responsibility of change in the hands of individuals.
It is not that Twelve Steppers think change is impossible, only that it can not be achieved alone. Steps Two and Three go on to say that we need to believe that a 'higher power' can restore us to health and that we need to commit to turning our lives over to god as we understand him/her. This last point is crucial since for many in the program 'god' is simply 'the program' itself.
Jillian Sandell, "Working the Program", Bad Subjects, Issue #10, December 1993.
That is passive dependency as a lifestyle and a religion.
It's a total cop-out. It's refusing to really live.
It's making excuses for failure before you even try.
It's refusing to try because you might fail.
"Trying is the first step towards failure."
-- Homer Simpson
It's a cowardly retreat from life that tries to cover its tracks by proclaiming that admitting powerlessness and dependency is really wonderful "rigorous honesty."
It is surrender to the cult, "turning our lives over to god as we understand him/her."
Note that this lower-case "god" isn't really "God"; it is whatever you make it; and "for many in the program 'god' is simply 'the program' itself."
So, your personal "G.O.D." is simply a "Group Of Drunks". Theologians can really have fun with that one. (Such a statement is totally heretical. It is a wonder that the Catholic Church has not banned Alcoholics Anonymous.)
So you "commit to turning your life over to" the cult. You surrender to the cult, which sounds a little bit like selling your soul to the Devil.
If I had to give a name to such a philosophy, I would call it "loser-ism". It's the church where you proudly brag about what a helpless loser you are. The Beatles' song I'm a Loser is the standard church music. Competence, strength, intelligence, self-reliance, and self-confidence are terrible vices and sins, immoral mistakes to be avoided at all costs, while incompetence, stupidity, ignorance, irrationalty, superstition, blind faith, dependency, weakness, powerlessness, and insanity are virtues to be proudly "admitted" at church get-togethers.
"You are powerless over everything,"
"You can't do it without your support group,"
and
"You can't handle life without having keepers to tell you what to do",
are the sacred teachings of the church.
"The more I feel my smallness and powerlessness, the more I grow in spirituality."
Having Had A Spiritual Awakening..., p. 159
quoted in Hope For Today, page 233, published by Al-Anon Family Groups.
Jillian Sandell's description of the A.A. version of recovery is inaccurate, and downright backwards in many ways:
It is Alcoholics Anonymous that ignores all "larger societal structures" like class, race, sex, environment, poverty, child abuse, and family life. A.A. says that those things are irrelevant. A.A. says that you drank too much because you have nasty personal defects ("defects of character"): you are sinful, willful, and selfish, you have numerous moral shortcomings, and you have a huge ego that thinks it is the center of the Universe and too big and too good to need God. And A.A.'s answer is to give you the one-size-fits-all Twelve Step cure. It doesn't matter what your personal history is, or what your race, creed, sex, religion, socio-economic status, or anything else is; it doesn't matter whether you were an abused child, or whether you have physical or mental illnesses, you will get prescribed the same "simple" 12-step fix as everybody else. That is really ignoring all of the "larger societal structures."
And Step Two most assuredly does not "say that we need to believe that a 'higher power' can restore us to health", like Ms. Sandell says. Step Two says that we "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." Sanity, not health. We must confess that we are insane and incapable of thinking for ourselves, and incapable of managing our own lives.
Likewise, Step Three says that we must turn our will and our lives over to the care of God or Alcoholics Anonymous, not "that we need to commit to turning our lives over to god as we understand him/her." We must surrender our will to "god", our "Group Of Drunks", and let A.A. do our thinking for us, and let our sponsors boss us around and tell us what to do with our lives.
Ms. Sandell blithely glosses over all of those gory little details. (Perhaps she wishes to avoid arousing any prejudices that we may have against cult religions...)
Abraham Lincoln's life story is hardly a myth. Ms. Sandell would do well to actually read a good biography of Abraham Lincoln. He really did accomplish many things through his own efforts, perseverence, and hard work, like teaching himself to read and write, and becoming a lawyer just by studying three law books and then passing the bar examination (which, admittedly, must have been less complex in those days...) Lincoln ran for Congress and the Senate, and sometimes won and sometimes lost, but he persevered, and ended up becoming the President. That is real United States history, not a popular myth.
And Ms. Sandell actually tells us that Marty McFly's 'if you put your mind to it you can achieve anything' attitude is all wrong? Just out of wild curiosity, how did the Australian woman Jillian Sandell graduate from college and become a Berkeley university professor?2 By eschewing self-reliance and hard work? By having her support group take her exams for her? I don't think so... Does Ms. Sandell recommend the Church of Loserism for us recovering alcoholics, while reserving the Right to Excel for herself?
All of the world's great religions teach just the opposite of the A.A. doctrine of powerlessness. And I do mean ALL of them: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Original American religious teachings, Confucianism, Taoism, Bahai-ism, the I Ching, you name it. They teach that personal morality consists of controlling one's own actions, and actively doing good, and refraining from doing wrong. They teach self-discipline, self-control, individual responsibility, and personal accomplishment through perseverance and hard work.
Perseverance furthers:
The inferior man, fearful of failure, says that it cannot be done, and never starts the work.
The average man sets to work, but quits when he finds his way blocked by great difficulties.
The superior man perseveres in his work until he reaches his goal, even though difficulties and obstacles rise up and tower ten-thousand-fold before him.
-- Old Confucian and Zen saying
Personal morality does not consist of screaming that one is helpless and powerless, and despairing and throwing up one's hands and saying that one cannot ever do it right, so don't even bother trying.
Nobody is powerless over urges, cravings, or temptations. Just because you feel an urge or a craving doesn't mean that you have to give in to it, and feed it. The way to quit drinking is not to expect God to just magically remove all desire for drink. The way to quit is to just not give in to the cravings that will inevitably come. And that is just how the vast majority of people quit. Eighty percent of all of the alcoholics who successfully quit drinking do it alone, without A.A., the Twelve Steps, or "admitting" that they are powerless over alcohol.
You really can handle cravings and feelings of ecstatic recall.
You are not powerless over your feelings.
You are not the slave of your feelings.
You do not have to relapse just because you get some cravings or feelings of ecstatic recall.
Feelings are just feelings, after all.
You don't really need a sponsor to hold your hand every night for the rest of your life to keep you from drinking, smoking, or drugging, which is good, because you really aren't going to get such a free full-time baby-sitter, anyway. So you're still on your own.
In fact, if you are really going to quit, then you really have to quit. That is, you really have to do the quitting yourself, and you have to stay quit, by yourself. Nobody else is going to do the quitting for you, not God, not Cinderella's Fairy Godmother, not Santa Claus, not the Tooth Fairy, and not your "support group."
Also see Jeff Jay's declarations that alcoholics choose addiction over recovery, in his Hazelden book on interventions. Throughout his book, he repeats the standard A.A. party line about alcoholism being a disease, and the alcoholic not having any control over it, and then he faults the alcoholics who will not "voluntarily choose" to get sent to an expensive residential treatment center like Hazelden ($15,000 for 28 days).
Footnotes:
1) Jillian Sandell, Working the Program, Bad Subjects, Issue #10, December 1993.
http://eserver.org/bs/10/Sandell.html (http://eserver.org/bs/10/Sandell.html)
2) Jillian Sandell is a member of the Bad Subjects Collective. She is a graduate of the Australian National University, and her degree is in Women's Studies and Philosophy. She can be reached at the following Internet address: http://www.orange-papers.org/ (http://www.orange-papers.org/)
Copyright © 2004, A. Orange
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Oooooooooooo, watch out. Now all the AAers are going to go ballistic. I'm not saying don't go to AA if you feel it helps you. As a social group to be around others who don't drink it's fine. Just be aware of the dogma.
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Jimmy,
I am not going to offer you any advice or cautions, just tell you to find a path that works for you. Personally, I enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, and I may have 'inhaled' a time or two post-Seed, but I also have two siblings active in AA, a mom in lock-down rehab even as we write here, and several grandparents who died of drinking. This stuff is out there, and you will need to find a way to deal with your personal demons. Good luck to you, I wish you the best.
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http://www.time.com/time/time100/heroes ... son01.html (http://www.time.com/time/time100/heroes/profile/wilson01.html)
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http://www.beliefnet.com/story/72/story_7206_1.html (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/72/story_7206_1.html)
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http://orange-papers.org/orange-funny_spirituality.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-funny_spirituality.html)
http://orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-religiousroots.html)
http://orange-papers.org/orange-funny_s ... tml#Lowen1 (http://orange-papers.org/orange-funny_spirituality.html#Lowen1)
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Just don't ever forget that the AA spawned the cult synanon which indirectly spawned the Seed.
AA has very dangerous dogma. In a all voluntary setting, it is just annoying to the non obsessive. However, AA forced onto people and polluted into lock down rehabs is downright dangerous.
Look elsewhere, and Jimmy, forget all your rose colored memories of the seed. It sucked.
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Jimmy,
I believe you need to do whatever you can to get help. No matter if it is AA or another program. You need to do whatever is going to make you happy and be at peace with yourself.
I also agree that you need to find other people who are going through the same things that you are. You can learn so much and be able to give of yourself also. I know that the more I give of myself to others the better I feel about myself.
All of the good feelings you had about your friends at the Seed were real. I know that I was truly loved by my friends at the Seed.
What's important is that you find help and do what you are doing now by taking 1 day at a time.
I wish you the best.
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Hey, you actually trolled up a post that wasn't attacking or sarcastic. Congrats! you now also have 90 posts!
In honor of this momentous occasion,might I recommend you choose a user name?
:grin:
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Fuck off and I mean that politely :flame:
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Hey Jimmy,
It seems that your post spurred a heavy debate on the pro?s and cons of the Seed.
But that is not the point. The point is your well-being. I ?am the person who post a couple of weeks ago about my depression?s and inability move on with my life. When I posted I was having one of my low day?s and decided to let my feelings out.
I always try to remember that life is not fair or perfect and all of us are only too human. That does not make me weak or powerless it just means we got to get to know myself better. Find out what my weak points are and what triggers them and how I can avoid these trigger points. Your goal and intention to stay sober is a good one and I think that is a good starting point to at least take pride in yourself for those noble aims. I can not post here all I have learned since my time at the Seed and all that has happened and what yet remains to happen with my life.
To be honest with- in my life I have failed in more things than I have succeeded in but, I choose to build on my successes rather than to self- destruct in my failures. To self destruct would be unfair to not only me but also to the other people my life touches on. I too choose to believe in my God and believe that there is a bigger reason for my existence and walk through this life. It is easy sometimes easy to loose hope and not see who we are and the reason why we are here. It is easy to question too many thing and become cynical but I believe these are test we are put thru as to build our character and inner strength for this life and maybe even for another life. Please remember this is just the beginning and we all have still very much to learn and grow. These are good things.
May God bless you and guide you on your way.
Please feel free to contact me if ever you want to talk.
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On 2004-12-06 13:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fuck off and I mean that politely :flame: "
Is that your new username?
hehe.
Such anger from such an accomplished seed staffer. You must be proud of yourself.
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On 2004-12-06 17:04:00, GregFL wrote:
"
On 2004-12-06 13:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fuck off and I mean that politely :flame: "
Is that your new username? hehe. Such anger from such an accomplished seed staffer. You must be proud of yourself.
"
Greg - do you get off pushing others buttons? You need to give Anon a break, OK?
There's enough strife in the world :roll: .
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Am I telling people to fuck off?
I don't think so Robin.
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I can remember when I first left the Seed some years ago some of the feelings that I went through.
The first night I left I felt disoriented but at the same time very relieved. I realized that now I could make my own decisions without having to consult with anyone or receive anyone?s approval, but even with this new found freedom, I also was very scared with what the consequences of my actions could bring. After all I had a past in which I had made some major mistakes I was certain that would not survive a second go around.
I also felt that it was very important to my personal growth that I break away from the Seed and do things on my own and after all these years I believe that it was the best thing for me. I believe what caused me to grow the most was my freedom to question what I had been taught, develop things inside of me and discard things that I did not need or just did not apply to me. The one last realization that I made of myself at the Seed was that I did not want to make the Seed my crutch and I did not want to use the Seed to hide from the things I needed to go through to really grow and understand. In spite of all its imperfections the Seed had given me the tools to survive and make something of myself. It was up to me to develop these tools and carry forward with what ever I needed or wanted to do with my life.
I must say this freedom was a double edge sword. During my post Seed years I have also experienced some of my most painful lessons, felt some of the loneliest times I have ever felt and tasted some of my most bitter failures. But in spite of all this my one true success was that I did not fall back into my old ways of killing my pain with drugs like I had done some many times in my past. (I got to confess that there were a couple of especially bitter occasions the thought did occur to me). The one mere fact that I did not fall back to my junkie mentality was the source of my biggest success. From this point I felt that I could build some true and very solid strength. Once I felt like I could handle the temptation of drugs any other success would just be the icing on the cake.
I do miss the camaraderie and the interaction and my friendships that I thought were so true and genuine but in the end I felt I made the right decision to walk away when I did.
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The one last realization that I made of myself at the Seed was that I did not want to make the Seed my crutch and I did not want to use the Seed to hide from the things I needed to go through to really grow and understand. In spite of all its imperfections the Seed had given me the tools to survive and make something of myself. It was up to me to develop these tools and carry forward with what ever I needed or wanted to do with my life...
The one mere fact that I did not fall back to my junkie mentality was the source of my biggest success. From this point I felt that I could build some true and very solid strength. Once I felt like I could handle the temptation of drugs any other success would just be the icing on the cake.
I do miss the camaraderie and the interaction and my friendships that I thought were so true and genuine but in the end I felt I made the right decision to walk away when I did.
I could not have said it better...but I do keep trying!
I also do not understand all the "Anonymous" posters and wonder why those do not pick a name...any name :???: to assist in communicating with "Anons"
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All that fucking place taught me how to do is passivly take a bunch of shit from everyone around me. Now, its different. I still put up with it but I'm not hopeless, or friendless, or faithless because of it. I just turned into a child again later on in years. The Seed fucking toughened me up for all kinds of abuse and torchure. Not that I believe all the shit that was said there, but t is good to be honest with myself. Drugged or not.
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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Harley Davidson, I noticed you went to both seed straight and LIFE , what were some of the diferences. Was seed better or more convinving than Straight? Thanks always wnated to here from an insider that was in both. Were the personalities at Straight as "soul moving" as seed program?
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Robin- by the way, have I told you lately - you are great. ::bigsmilebounce:: Believe me I sometimes can get my buttons pushed easily. and I react too quickly and sometimes do regret my
actions.
Greg- I do apologize for telling you to Fuck off.
It was kind of in jest though. ::kiss::
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I now have a name - very creative - huh?[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2004-12-08 07:43 ]
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How can I change the little harry guy on 2 legs?
(and no this isn't something 1 psychiatrist said to the other) to another icon???
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Go into your profile and at the bottom there is a place for you to change it. Select 'show avatar' and choose another one.
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Thanks that worked ::bigsmilebounce::
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On 2004-12-08 07:41:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"I now have a name - very creative - huh?[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2004-12-08 07:43 ]"
Hey, thanks for choosing a username, and the apology isn't necessary. I must admit I was egging you on a bit to choose a user name so I am partially at blame here.
Ft Lauderdale, Eh? The place of some of my worst and best moments, where I went from an angry young man into a young man interested in solving my problems. The place where at almost 21 years old I finally got in my car, left much of my personal baggage behind and packed up everything I owned and drove myself to gainsville, FL and enrolled in school.
I like the name!
:nworthy:
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"Believe me I sometimes can get my buttons pushed easily. and I react too quickly and sometimes do regret my actions.
Hey, we all get hot from time to time - so, have YOU taken the Ft Lauderdale moniker or is that another Anon?
It gets very confusing sometimes...but the shadow (a.k.a. Greg) always knows who you are :scared:
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Not to alarm you Ft Lauderdale, but isn't your new aviator that druggie from the 70s "fritz the Cat"?
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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Thanks for the clarification Greg. I await w/ baited breath :wink:
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::bigsmilebounce::
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Sorry. I have another question. How do I change "Welcome Stranger" to something else? :???:
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no positive on this, but I think it has to do with how many posts you've done.
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Thanks
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Your right now everything changed to familar face ::nod::
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I wonder if Greg's will change to "too many posts"
ha ha :rofl:
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I went in in July of 1973 and graduated about 190 days later. I was pretty much an insider there for the time I was in, and I immediately stopped going. My father was forcing me to oldtimers meetings so me and this other kid would drive down there, hang around a bit iin the parking lot so people would see us and then leave. Within about a month I flat out refused. I was in the St Pete Seed.
How about you Ft Lauderdale, when did you first go in, and how long were you on staff?
BTW, mine just changed to "Mid Life crises poster", which is far worse than "too many posts".
:grin:
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I went on the program 4/72. I worked there from I believe 5/73 to 8/77. However I was in Ft Pierce 5 or 6/73 for about a year. Then Cleveland I beleive 8/75 for about a year then back to Broward then back to Cleveland again until around 8/77. I moved to Atlanta for about a year in 78 or 79. Then I moved back to Ft Lauderdale. My home town. I think these dates are fairly accurate.
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I never did step foot in St. Pete.
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When I went back to Lauderdale at almost 17, I went to Boyd Anderson High for half of eleventh and all of twelve grade. Boyd anderson was not too far from The Mall on 441, right near the apartment complex where girls staff was and where my encounter with Art occured several years later. I lived for a while on the other side of 441 from those apartments (the name escapes me right now). I lived in and around Lauderdale from 17 to almost 21. This is where my post seed problems worked themselves into a downward spiral and then back out into the light, where I eventually gained some real self awareness and put myself on a positive path. But damn, it sure took a while and I made a lot of mistakes that I wish I never had.
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Greg do you remember me? Was it only girl staff that lived in those apts or a bunch of apts with people on the program? Or was it a complex with about 4 girl apts?
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My sister graduated Boyd Anderson 1973
My brother graduated " " 1976
Another brother " " " 1978
and another " " " 1982 or 83?
I grad Plantation High 1972
It could have been Cranbrook Apts or maybe Waterbridge or another one?
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or maybe Quiet Waters
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It was cranbrook apts where that dealeo occured with Art. I am in the 76 Boyd anderson yearbook. Tell your brother I had long blonde hair, used to ride a motorcycle, a red yamaha rd 350. I was fond of popping wheelies in the parking lot. What a jerk I was... :lol:
Twice I got in fights with black guys there that resulted in major bullshit.
Email me with your brother's last name. If he wasn't a seedling, I might have known him. I knew no seedlings at boyd. 76 was a tough year for race relations at that school...I remember it well.
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On 2004-12-09 10:43:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Greg do you remember me? Was it only girl staff that lived in those apts or a bunch of apts with people on the program? Or was it a complex with about 4 girl apts?"
I really don't know. I only bumped into Art cavorting with girls staff in the pool. He was in the middle of the pool in his swimsuit and they were all around him giggling and talking. He was the absolute center of attention. I wonder if he was enjoying himself (hehe). Someone from that era has to remember. The closest I have come to someone else remember what happening. is someone emailed me that got on staff shortly after it happened and was told they weren't allowed to go to the pool anymore because it wasn't safe.
A couple years later I ran into Suzie Connors at the Lauderhill mall right before I left town when I was twenty. I was working the christmas season at the record store and she came in. We recognized each other from St Pete and she wanted to buy a gift for someone..a disco album because "they like that shit and I no nothing about it". I steered her towards the saturday night live album. She was polite but didn't really have much to say to me. I told her to say hi to Art for me and that was the last Ive heard of her.
I also ran into Maggie Ca....ld a couple years before that in the same mall and tried to talk to her. She told me she was working at the seed and wanted to know if I 'was straight'. That was all she would talk to me about. Before that we were close friends in St Pete, we used to go bowling together and talk all the time. Now our communicating hinged soley on the answer to that question.
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He said he vaiguly remembers some jerk on a ...Just kidding. He said he vaugely remembers. (probably not) He's my one brother that back then had a fro but he's not a person of color. Greg I'm a guy in case you thought differently. He's going to look you up in the year book. (which he probably will sometime next year) Doesn't your last name begin with S.? You can get my last name actually my whole name in my email address that I had to put down when I registered "Ft. Lauderdale". I assumed that that was how you knew I once worked at the Seed. If not - did you just guess or what? Or from a conversation with someone else? My sister actually got bussed to Dillard High in 1971 which was no picnic. Where did you live in Lauderdale?
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I was close to Suzie and Maggie too. Maggie was beautiful. Suzie was OK also. I have not seen Suzie since about 1990 and Maggie a few years before that.
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Yeah, Maggie was a hottie. Heard she got married. No, my last name does not begin with an S. I think I figured out you were a staffer from an old post.
I lived in Tamarac at first, then moved to the apartments across from Cranbrook, then moved all around lauderhill and Tamarac.
Was your brother in the Seed? PM me I am interested now. Maybe I do know him.
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Sorry- what does PM me mean? No my brother was not in the Seed. He was football Tennis & Auto Mechanics and actually Teaches at a Vocational School now and he's lost his fro- He still has a full head of hair unlike me loosing mine. Its kind of funny I probably have never fixed anything mechanical all those genes went to him. I wonder if there's a correlation between hair and that ::bigmouth:: Probably from posting on this site. just kidding.
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PM = private message. Over there on the left in red there is a tab to send anyone on this site a private message.
I am also trying to find my boyd anderson yearbook to see if I remember your brother.
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I was in Ft. Lauderdale from July 1st, 1974 to August 17th, 1975, I lived with the *** family they had 2 kids in the program, Jim and Bert, they lived on a canal and had 4 boats. We spent lots of time fishing and water skiing, that was the highlight of my seed experience. I also lived with "Hank" who later became a staff member, His house was on Coolidge drive in Hollywood,Florida, I remember that like it was yesterday.
I went to my junior year at South Plantation high school and I also remember the race riots. The blacks really hated the whites for enslaving their grandparents but I stayed out of the whole thing because I didnt talk to anybody. A seedling friend of mine by the name of Mark Barton(he was from Kentucky) got punched in the face and Libby made a big deal of him being a hero for not fighting back, I always thought he was a "Pussy" for not fighting the blacks
I graduated the night we left Ft. Lauderdale for Cleveland and stayed involved until I went in the Marines on February 28, 1977. If you tell me your name it would be a big help. Remember Sue Liberatore? The good looking blonde from Bay Village who's dad was a racketeer and he got involved with Art Barker. Sue Died in a car crash while she was snorting cocaine(honest)
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Jimmy,
I lived in that little shack in Hollywood that was behind Hank's parents house...they had a little bulldog that was hyper, but they were very nice. The "shack" or cottage had probably been meant for seasonal use only and it was comically small. You had to walk thru the shower - in the front and out the back - to get into the back bedroom. The living room was so small we cut the legs off of our couch to get in in the door, we called it the "low rider." The kitchen was so tiny that when you opened the fridge door, it took up all the space - a one-person kitchen. I think the front "porch" was dirt. There was a crazy man who lived next door, who had buried a Volkswagen in his yard, which was surrounded by sand-bags - he'd hide all day but come out at night and scream racist madness. I lived there with four people, it was crazy. We had a good time there, and we were far enough away from other Seed kids that we felt a bit of freedom. Alas, it was too much of a good thing, and staff closed it down and we were all relocated to other houses. I remember staff actually saying that we were having too much fun there - I think they were concerned because we'd come in to raps and talk about what a blast we were having all the time! Those are actually my best Seed memories, crossing the track near the Winn-Dixie to go home and hang out with Mitch, and this southern kid - Mike? - and at least one other person. Funny how those memories have faded.
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That is a cool memory. When I lived at Hanks house there was "The girls " house behind their house. We had a screened in pool and went swimming everynight. Do you remember the building on the other side of the yard? It was white and called "Rapid Rater" That was Hanks fathers business and we used to go in at night and emptied garbage cans,,,,,,,imagine that you were there to.
bad memory........... In 1981, I called John G*** and Scott to see if they could help me, they told me to call the seed, ::armed:: I called the Florida Seed to talk to Libby, Hank answered the phone after I asked to speak to a staff member and I asked for Libby (my favorite), Hank told me that "this isnt selective choose a staff, what do you want". I was really hurt because at one time Hank and I were close friends and he had become a "Parrot". I was having trouble with alcohol and drugs and in trouble with a motorcycle club but I hung up the phone and never called again.
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Yes, that whole chain of command thing...
Hank was staff in Cleveland when I came in. When the Cleveland Seed closed, hank came down too. But you know, I think he left soon after we moved out of the cottage, which must have been the 'girls' house' before. I thought he was gone by 1981, but I could be wrong.
A lot rode on who you happened to get as a staff member when you had a question. That made it pretty arbitrary. Remeber there was that whole rule about 'not playing one staff member against another'? That meant you were stuck with whatever you were told to do, and if you had a staff member who didn't understand or care about your issue, tough luck...
John G*** was one of the Cleveland guys who was around when I came in - he drove an old beat up sports car and always showed up at our house on Claque road with his own 6-pack of 'diets' - do you remember that? I lived there with Scott P., Wayne A., Jim A. and Mike, who had a Chevelle (these guys all drove big American cars, for 'the newcomers' - yeah, right!)
John moved to Florida too with his wife and child, one of the few 'Seed baby's' I ever knew of.
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Wally Gator