Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: cleveland on January 25, 2006, 10:28:00 AM
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Somewhere on Fornits someone had mentioned the address of the Cleveland Seed - 8301 Detroint Avenue. That's where I was admitted to the program in 1979, just prior to the Seed leaving Cleveland and consolidating with the program in Ft. Lauderdale, I believe in Oct. of '79 (I may be wrong about these dates). Anyway, I moved back to Cleveland after I left the Seed in 1986, and I have lived on the near west side of Cleveland for the past 12 years. I drive down Detroit all the time, I had never seen building that called out 'Seed' to me, so I was sure the building had been demolished. There are a lot of vacant lots in this part of Cleveland.
Well, lo and behold, the building is still there. It is currently home for Mental Health Services, and has been altered a lot but not substantially.
I went looking for it the other night. I drove down Detroit, and went right past it. It is an H-shaped brick building, low set. The wings flank the entry ways, front and back. There is not much landscaping left, and of course, the big, ornate Seed sign (yellow on green) is gone. It looks like when it was built, it had a low, heavy roofline, meant to look like an English cottage, but that is gone now, as is the Tudor wookwork in the eaves - replaced by a modern, cheap-looking roof braced by big, iron braces. Ugly.
I went to the back parking lot, which is what I remember. I walked to the rear door, opened and entered into what would have been the rap room - now split up into reception area and offices. Some of the floor tile that I remember - heavy, shiny rustic terracota - is still evident, but a lot of it is covered with institutional grey carpet.
I walked to my left, and there were two cheap doors marked, 'conference room.' They were unlocked, and I walked in - there was the mantelpiece that I remember, with beautiful tiles inset with images of animals or cowboys or something - I have no idea. I only had a moment before security tossed me out, but I asked if I could look at the front entry because - "I had been here when I was a kid." The double terrazzo stairway, a 1950s addition to the building, still was flanked by interior flower beds, whcih in the Seed days, had featured Catholic saints (the building had been an orphanage pre-Seed). The saints are gone, but there were still a few wan looking plants, although the beds are now filled in - I seem to recall they had ivy in them, and maybe plastic flowers or greenary. I don't know.
It's amazing how little of the Seed building I recalled - I rarely saw anything but the inside of the main rap room upstairs and the one in the basement where we did the rules. The only other time I was in any of the other rooms was during my intake, where I was strip searched and interrogated.
I don't ever recall seeing much of the outside of the building. Did I wear a blindfold when I was driven there as a newcomer? I did always have an oldcomer with me, with a heavy arm draped over my shoulders. Usually one on each side.
I had no emotion at all in the building, or very little. I have experienced much more intense feelings and memories through this forum. Faced with the actual building, it just seemed a bit tired and faded, but mostly empty.
Thought those of you who went through the Cleveland Seed might like to hear this.
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Hey Cleveland:
I too drove past the Cleveland Seed several times and never even knew it. This was afew yrs back, when I was in Cleveland. I used to visit a friend who lived only a couple of blocks away from there. One day, I looked at the bldg and thought that's it, the H shape. I saw the old ball field behind it.
I didn't stop but, I sort of remebered the parking lot although it seemed different to me. I hated that bldg, It felt to me at the time
like a cold dungeon with catacombs.
But, I also hated the Seed in Ft Lauderdale. The entire time I lived down there, everyday I drove up to that place my heart would sink, and I felt very bad being there.
I couldn't wait to leave it everyday, but I knew I'd have to come back tomorrow.
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That ball field, how many times did I think of bolting accross that ball field. Sit there on my front row just feet away from really large windows and imagine bolting across that field.
Funny that it's a mental health building now, when ever I read of a mental hospital dayroom, I imagine it as the rap room.
Although you guys who were there later, you had your open meetings in the room I remember as the rap room. I never went to any raps after I graduated, so I don't know if you had your raps there also. Terricotta tiled floor, stucco walls,a fireplace on each side. The seed really shrank at the end. When I was there open meetings were huge events in the gym.
The downstairs was creepy. That dark red carpet and the dark paneled walls. After being up in the sunny room during my early group time we started having every rap downstairs later. I don't think anyone actually said it, but I imagined that we were down there for security reasons. So dark, it was the sort of place you'd expect torture to be performed. Oh right,it was.
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Cleveland chick 76-77[ This Message was edited by: NOT12NOW on 2006-01-25 10:13 ]
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I have real vague memories of the Cleveland Seed, guess I was still trying to figure the whole thing out when we up and left for SR84.
THe strongest memories I have are the people there (I have some faces and names, only a few that match up).
I had voluntarily put myself in, I had some legal trouble so it was there or a mental hospital lest I go to prison (I told myself this before I heard of the Seed, so when it was put out there as an option, I took it - obviously I didn't need to be sold on the deadorinjail line)
I wonder what happend to the guys left behind (I was told not to talk to them after we moved). The guys who I thought could get me on the right track Paul T (and his sister Jackie...) john G (from Canada), Bobby B, Jeff P, Phil and Scott P.
I really feel bad for Eric (the boxer) and his whole family - they bought into it enough to move to Ft. Lauderdale, take home newcomers, and then get abandoned - thrown out - one day. I know it happened, but never knew anything about why.
I guess the lucky ones were the underage kids who were summarily graduated just because the program was splitting town, they didn't get sucked in the way many of us 80's folks did.
enough rambling for now - let's get together for your beverage of choice and talk all night - then I will get a lot of this stuff talked out.
Told my mom that I had found this forum, she said she doesn't hate Art any more.
later
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On 2006-01-25 18:52:00, Johnny G
Told my mom that I had found this forum, she said she doesn't hate Art any more.
later "
Me either.
Funny that, no? I think once you confront your personal boogieman, you take their power away. I now would love to have a one on one adult conversation with the man. I think I understand him better now, dont' harbor any ill feelings towards him, and generally have put the negativity in my past.
How is Art these days, anyway? Anyone know how his health is?
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It took about 3 months after I went in, then she started to hate Art and the Seed - for taking me away - I don't think she saw what was happening there, just that I didn't come right back.
Every time I talked to her about it she would go on about "Barker and that place"
SHe got over it some time in the last year or so.
On the Cleveland building, were the walls really yellowish or was that just the nicotine stains?
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I will never forget my first Open Meeting in the upstairs rap room...this was when there were still lots of kids in the Cleveland program, graduates anyway, but only a few newcomers. It seemed really fun to me; I was at a really low point in my life and everyone seemed so happy, singing songs, laughing, crying...it did seem a little 'canned' to me, but no warning lights went off in my head until I had signed myself in the next day 'voluntarily'...I had told Scott B. (staff) that I wanted time to think about it, and he laughed and told me why was I wasting time, what good is a geographic cure, I know exactly how you feel, like you never quite fit in, etc. etc. So - my mom took me to Burger King (still there, just up the street!) for my 'last meal,' I came back, told them to sign me up and boom - I was whisked into intake, where a considerably less friendly Bob W. glared at me, implied he didn't believe my drug use questionaire (I hadn't done much) and then, the awful strip search ('spread 'em') and - what the hell have I got myself into? I actually started to hyperventilate a bit and I told them I might be changing my mind, and I was told I had 'signed myself in' voluntarily for three days and I would have to stick it out, legally. It's kind of blurry but that's what I remember. Then I was in the basement for the Rules rap - my hands were shaking so bad - I felt like I was going to physically collapse when everyone yelled, 'We love you Walter!!!' and then the room got really quiet. I thought you could hear my heart pounding as I sat down. The rap after Rules was something harsh - like how fucked up we were or something. My head was spinning, I was looking for exits, I think I might have put my hand up and was ignored. Evening Rap was Ginger T., I think, who was very funny and I thought, well, maybe I will give this a shot. It was hard not to think about Hitler Youth and cults for the next days and weeks, but everyone was so nice (mostly) and I was treated pretty well after the first couple of days. Johnny G. came in after me and he kind of took the limelight then, 'cause he was there with much more serious background stuff than I had (remember when Scott B. threatened to kick your ass?)
I can still remember how freaked out I was from people saying, I love you, and looking deep into your eyes with that blissed-out, knowing look. And putting their arms around me - I was still kinda homophobic at 19 I am afraid to say, and that felt very uncomfortable for me.
"I wonder what happend to the guys left behind (I was told not to talk to them after we moved). The guys who I thought could get me on the right track Paul T (and his sister Jackie...) john G (from Canada), Bobby B, Jeff P, Phil and Scott P...."
I remember Paul T and Jackie - Paul had a Karman Ghia? His sister was very pretty - short dark hair? (I always remember details like that!). Someone posted that John G. had died - elsewhere on this site. Scott P. (big guy, dark hair, kinda mean) was one of my oldcomers, my least favorite. I lived with Jeff P. in Florida, great guy. Bobby? Curly hair? Sister was Mary, married Phil S., staff member.
"I really feel bad for Eric (the boxer) and his whole family - they bought into it enough to move to Ft. Lauderdale, take home newcomers, and then get abandoned - thrown out - one day. I know it happened, but never knew anything about why."
Eric also went to art school in Cleveland - do you remember his cute and sad little sister, friendly brother, and mom? I ran into Eric post Seed, and we said hi, but didn't talk at all about the Seed. Wtaylor - same thing. We were all studying art in Cleveland, can you believe it? Why did Eric and family get tossed out?
Ah, the Cleveland Seed!
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Yea I remember Scott B threatening to kick my ass, I was more scared of him than Bob W at the beginning, Scott Seemed more explosive and Bob seemed more stable, all business - It seemed like if I toed the line he would treat me OK.
I don't remember the first open meeting I went to,I do remember that the night before I went in, I was supposed to stay with the family etc. but I went out and got high with the old friends, reinforced the idea that I was probably doing the right thing by signing myself in - we were quite the bunch of losers...
That reversed some time after I got to Florida, By the time I left my perception of Bob was that of Jekyll and Hyde while I figured out where I stood with Scott.
I remember the whole "I love you" thing just seemed pretty rote to me from the start (I had tried religion before the Seed so I had seen how the "love" thing worked, figured you just go along with the customs of where you are, say what they say... and it wouldn't be too bad)
I spent my first few days trying not to get poked!
I had a serious crush on Jackie T. from when she cut my hair.
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twt
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I was talking to my mom and google Art Barker Fla. and found this site. I my stint at the seed in cleve. I entered spring of 76.....I remember the winter of 77. I was a newcommer in the chicks apartment with Ellen...moved back home...college...married a seed kid in 82...divorced him in 01...Jon P. My sisters also attended Judy and Nancy. I still stay in touch with Dave M. he lives in L.A. I am going to tell him about this site. I still live in cleve. and I may move to an Ashram in India one day. I feel I get value in pretty much any experience I have even the seed, they taught me how to not talk to people{ha} if I don't want to. I have done quite a bit with my life some stuff I am proud of some not so good....c'est la vie Karen K
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Hi, I came in a bit after you and names aren't connecting. But was Dave M a kid who had a pretty intense stutter? I just thought of him...
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Welcome Karen. anyone you know that was in the seed, direct them here.
We would also love to hear about something you remember from your time in the Cleveland seed. One thing I have learned is that each seed branch had some things unique to it. For example, cleveland had a boxing ring, and to my knowledge no other seed branch did.
Welcome again!
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nope just high energy
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I don't remember a boxing ring Karen
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Boxing ...yes...ring..no Does that rind a bell? :grin:
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Boxing ...yes...ring..no Does that ring a bell? :grin:
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Two bells actually.
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I don' think there was ever a 'ring,' but there was boxing. Eric, who had been a golden gloves champ, and this other black kid who had a great singing voice and became a...modern dancer. I never saw it, but people talked about it a lot.
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there was not a boxing ring, however for a few months in 77-78, as a special treat i guess, there would be boxing but only when Art was visting from FL. It was strictly monitored to try to prevent actually hurting your opponent, it was as much an instructional thing to introduce the sport as it was a game. I think it was either done instead of the evening rap (6-8 pm) sometimes, or done on a sat afternoon instead of playing softball or something, but dont remember for sure. it was a thing that came and went rather quickly, if i remember correctly - been a long time and i never actually got up and boxed. i think it got going from eric the boxer, just having casula conversations about it during meals & such, and kinda took off to introducing the sport to the group. it wasnt like it was a gladiatorial type show for Art while he was in town.
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I remember boxing for the first time. I was a little apprehensive with this as I was with any sport at the time. I did however do it. I did enjoy it. I wasn't half bad at it.
I remember waking up with a black eye and a bit of a blood clogged nose the next
morning. Since I had never had a black eye before I must admit I did enjoy sporting it around for a couple of days. (Rocky was kind of popular at the time) I may have even had some spinach the next day. ::bigsmilebounce:: [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2006-04-16 06:35 ]
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On 2006-04-09 11:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I was talking to my mom and google Art Barker Fla. and found this site. I my stint at the seed in cleve. I entered spring of 76.....I remember the winter of 77. I was a newcommer in the chicks apartment with Ellen...moved back home...college...married a seed kid in 82...divorced him in 01...Jon P. My sisters also attended Judy and Nancy. I still stay in touch with Dave M. he lives in L.A. I am going to tell him about this site. I still live in cleve. and I may move to an Ashram in India one day. I feel I get value in pretty much any experience I have even the seed, they taught me how to not talk to people{ha} if I don't want to. I have done quite a bit with my life some stuff I am proud of some not so good....c'est la vie Karen K"
I know you. We car pooled together to the east side. You and your sister used to pick me up at junior high and drive me to the seed after school. Amy B
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Ya I know you you lived in Shaker........How are you? Karen K
[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2006-05-02 08:58 ]
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Now thats freeky. I lived in Shaker Village. Are you telling me seedlings lived there also?
Com'n, say it isn't so!
:grin:
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I am fine K. Glad to see you posting here.
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Ft. Lauderdale were you in the Cleveland Seed?
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Yes, I was there, for about a year off and on.
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parts of 75,76 &77 ( God thats a long time ago)
I was there as a very young child :rofl: [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2006-05-11 06:28 ]
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Do you know me? Do I know you. Private Message me if you want. If I was there when you were I'm sure I'll remember.
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"Ya I know you you lived in Shaker........How are you? Karen K
Hey Karen I'd love to PM you but I can't if you don't log on. I hope you will soon, or if you like PM me. amy
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Sorry it took sooooo long ...........guess N12N u can PM me!
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I couldn't help but reply, I'm Eric the boxer who went to Ft. Lauderdle after Cleveland, i was on the Front row in early 1977 twice. I went to Florida to help my mother put my sister and brother on the program, they were both days from coming into the Cleveland Seed when the "Seed Split".( BTW the kid who died and sent the seed packing was a new comer of mine although a graduate when he had his accident ). While in Fla my other brother came on the program and went into the Apartments. My mother, younger brother(not in the program) left Fla once my sister graduated. My sister left not to much later because of problems in her High School. My brother in the Apartments was sent packing, (Even though he was a graduate) because of some threats of violence in the Apartments, ( I guess the staff members staying there couldn't handle it ). Mt remaining brother and i were booted because I had the audacity to want to go to College and study Art. So they closed our apartment, pulled the graduates that were staying with me out and told us both to leave imediately.
I ahd alot of friends down there, but none of them inquired as to what happened to me. I did hang out with Alex P on the same college campus but I was much further behingd him interms of assimilating into the main culture and he left me behind. I miss my friends at the seed but going over this crap depresses me to no end and the repercussions are still with us as a family 30 years later. Read my most recent post on the SEED Book.
Cheers
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Hey all,
I originally went into the Seed in Cleveland in 1978. I then went back later in florida. Hey Eric, I remeber you and your bothers from Cranbrook apts in fla -- area is ghetto now. I was there for the split in 2002. Art has some sort of brain disorder and who knows how much longer he'll be around. Scott B the staff member has brain cancer and not doing too well. I think Lybbi and Bob Kay are separated now. I haven't had much to do with any of them since the split. Its a shame a man who was given the gift of awareness to help people used it for personal gain and control of people...now cannot even control his own movements---reap what u sow i guess. Fyi Eric and u guys who knew Mitch...he has physical ailments as well..too bad..he was a cool guy. I used to drive by the old Clevelnad Seed back in the 80's when I lived there. The Seed is a past memory now and i guess life things happen for reason. Too bad everyone was made to feel bad for wanting to leave and move on with their lives. That's all over now.
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Art Barker had no gift, he was an abuser, A sick soul.
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Art has some sort of brain disorder and who knows how much longer he'll be around.
Anyone else consider the possibility that Art always had some sort of brain disorder?
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I think Fart Barker is one big BRAIN DISORDER , he never had a brain. If he had a brain he would have never scammed his way through life using young kids as bait. Sorry that soul has no freaking brain as far as I am concerned. Pretty sure he is not a Soul either, dead or alive everyone deserves to let the truth be known about this pathetic creature all call Fart Barker.I myself would love to laugh in his ugly face whether he be sick or not, I have known him always to be sick.He is scum, always has been always will be. He never at all wanted to help anyone but his own greedy drunk ass, may he drown in his own piss.
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D,
Did I know you?
I always wonder what happened to everyone;
I split when I thought i was to be started over - and have wanted to get back in touch with others there when I was there.
I think I became an "unperson" and was treated like a leper when I ran into someone at the mall or something - I stayed in the area.
PM me
I was Johnny G or "G"
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I split too, I left school at such a young age that I was scared to go back, for one all the starting over shit, but mostly I had no idea who to trust, my friends I had fear of , my family I had fear of, I was scared to be started over too though, so I ran away , and I did not see family for years because of the stress I had, being afraid of your family is very sad, trust is something that is so important especially when so young.