Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: anon on October 13, 2003, 11:16:00 AM
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 18:49 ]
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Karen, when I read about the facilities, I have to ask...WHAT KIND OF PARENT WOULD LEAVE THEIR CHILD IN A FACILTIY SUCH AS THE ONE DESCRIBED IN THE ARTICLE ABOVE? What kind? One that doesn't care or one that just has not taken the time to see for themselves, what kind?
I am sorry, I just don't undertand.
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[ This Message was edited by: Zip on 2003-11-15 19:08 ]
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On 2003-10-13 09:46:00, Carey wrote:
"Karen, when I read about the facilities, I have to ask...WHAT KIND OF PARENT WOULD LEAVE THEIR CHILD IN A FACILTIY SUCH AS THE ONE DESCRIBED IN THE ARTICLE ABOVE? What kind? One that doesn't care or one that just has not taken the time to see for themselves, what kind?
I am sorry, I just don't undertand."
Karen's right. The kind of parent who would leave their kids with these sadistic lunatics are the kind who simply refuse to believe that they are sadistic lunatics. Here's a big, blinking clue as to how they pull off the divide an conquore slight of mind.
"Child Torture and Violation of the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child. In response to the arrests, WWASP rallied parents and accused the Czech authorities of "reverting to their communist past", with majority owner Ralph Atkin noting that dealing with the Czech's was "like dealing with the KGB."
Now, if the only thing that terrifies you more than the mythical power of a joint to transform your kid into Charles Manson is the corrupting and horrifying prospect of Communist world rule, this might look like a pretty compelling argument.
This is just a simple, obvious ad hominem attack. Smear the critic, call them commies and KGB. Crude, but effective. At the same time, as you well know, WWASP and their philisophical brethren carry on a concerted and sustained damage control campaign. They'll bribe, intimidate and smear parents and former clients who dissent and they'll bribe, cajole and smooze the authorities to deflect serious investigations. That's where a lot of the money goes; to lobbying. How much of the "Faith Based and Community Initiatives" billions do you think WWASP is in line for if they can keep Goldsmith and Ashcroft well funded and protected till payday?
I can tell you that the steady diet of HRS ad hominems on which I was raised (Floridas Health and Rehab Svcs, since renamed and reorganized a few times) was so effective that, when HRS came to my aid to help me fight through the courts against being returned to Straight, I didn't know who to be more afraid of.
And there is some merit in the criticizm of these state agencies. While in HRS care, most of the other kids I met did not really view what was happening to them as very helpful. A lot of them just wanted to go home and spent a lot of time and energy trying to figure out how to make that happen.
This makes it very easy for a desperate parent to see these fine, upstanding Mormons who are accused of unimaginable cruelty are really nobel, martyred victims of a Communist conspiracy. The parents know that they signed consent to have their kid restrained "if they're a danger to themselves and others" They simply do not believe that these "good Christians" would use that authority inapropriately.
If you can imagine it, the WWASP staff don't really believe that what they're doing is inapropriate either. They're no different in that respect from those people who all put on nice new sneakers and offed themselves trying to hitch a ride on a passing commet. From their viewpoint, suicide was not really an inapropriate action, given the circumstances.
Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877
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What you don't understand is, these program parents are not Able to believe the program is abusive! They don't believe it b/c they can't - and I know you think thats bull shit
They might not believe it now, but I bet you they will believe it once they see a parent held accountable for it.
NO, I do not believe the parents are "brainwashed." I believe they are gullable, careless, insensative, controlling, easily influenced and many other things, but I do not believe they are "brainwashed."
If they don't believe their child is being abused, it is either because they have not been there to see it, or it is because they choose not to see it, or it is because it is not happening. The only thing left is that they believe it and simply think the child deserves it (sick to think there are parents that think this way, but there are).
The parents have to be held accountable just as the consultants, escorts and programs. It is the combined effort of all invovled who have harmed the children. The parents have been neglectful as have the consultants. The consultants, escorts and programs have been exploitive as well as abusive, given what I know, saw, and heard, and personally witnessed at Dundee.
The kind of parent who would leave their kids with these sadistic lunatics are the kind who simply refuse to believe that they are sadistic lunatics
So hold them accountable, either by pressing charges against them for neglect, or else throw them in the luney bin where they belong. But what ever, make them accountable.
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NO, I do not believe the parents are "brainwashed." I believe they are gullable, careless, insensative, controlling, easily influenced and many other things, but I do not believe they are "brainwashed."
No, Carey. That is just what you think of your ex husband. You are in dire need of a reality check... you cannot continue to portray your visualization of you husband onto the thousands of parents that have been straight duped by WWASP. I just can't understand how you are so ignorant and stubborn, and continue to argue about this. Get over it.
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Or...duped by newspaper articles.
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On 2003-10-13 09:46:00, Carey wrote:
"Karen, when I read about the facilities, I have to ask...WHAT KIND OF PARENT WOULD LEAVE THEIR CHILD IN A FACILTIY SUCH AS THE ONE DESCRIBED IN THE ARTICLE ABOVE? What kind? One that doesn't care or one that just has not taken the time to see for themselves, what kind?
I am sorry, I just don't undertand."
What kind? The one program parent I know of, and people differ, so I know this is just one anecdotal example, is loopy, self-absorbed, and materialistic.
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Well, Carey, they definitely unsee it because they don't want to see it. I won't argue that with you, we agree.
But family is family. No matter how bad things get or what goes between parent and child, they still need eachother. Leave turning families against eachother to the WWASPies, that's their gig.
Now, I don't know that PURE is any better than WWASP. I do believe they're sincere and that they think they're the good guys. But I've seen that before. Every time a program comes under a lot of pressure, there's always a group of reformers who want to create a kinder, gentler coercive thought reform program. Maybe one day we'll find a way to get them to learn from past mistakes? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure this is not it.
"Replace end user" (The Top Support Call Closer 10 Years Running)
--Bastard Administrator
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They might not believe it now, but I bet you they will believe it once they see a parent held accountable for it.
No they wouldn't. You'd just have a martyr on your hands. Or a group of martyrs. It would just solidify the group think, if you threaten the group. It would make what is already difficult, impossible; that being reaching out to, and getting threw to, the Program parents.
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THX Karen
at the end it
looks like the article is from 99 and the Intrepidnetreporter site.
I can see why they wouldn't want quotes like those from Government agency documents out there.
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The definition of Brainwash:
1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas
2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship
Its not necessary to isolate and deprive a parent in order to persuade and indoctrinate them (look at organized religions), it does appear to be necessary with teens. All you have to do is provide a ?solution? for parent?s fear and/or anger.
Programs definitely use salesmanship. They have determined what most "reasonable" parent will agree to and tolerate, and that's what they present- simultaneously withholding important details regarding the methods and techniques any reasonable parent would oppose. It's illegal to withhold information. It is illegal to abuse under the guise of therapy/BM. Deception and fraud.
Parents are not given details regarding the BM techniques employed, the extent of restriction, limited calories for punishment, actual uses of restraint, etc.
Once the parent has made a commitment and the teen is in their control, they then employ heavy persuasion and salesmanship to keep the teen ($$$$) there.
Example:
"Your child is a lying manipulator, you can trust us."
"It took 13,14,15 years for your child to get in this shape, change is not going to happen overnight."
"Refinance your home, use the collage fund, borrow, whatever it takes to keep your child here."
"Your child would be dead if s/he were in your care, trust the process."
They have compiled a list of excuses to use with parent when things don?t go as originally presented, but ultimately the excuse suggests that the teen is ?not progressing?, ?not working the program?.
To entertain prosecuting parents for collaborating with abusive programs is a waste of time and energy. You first have to establish that abuse is occurring. If that is not difficult enough- because the only witnesses are "lying manipulating teens who are not credible"- you then would have to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the parent was aware of abuse and allowed it. Good luck !!! For those who support the notion that parents should be prosecuted for colluding with an abusive program?Who do you think is going to take that action? A class action is not appropriate in this situation- An individual must initiate that action. And the individuals who do decide to take this action against another parent, better have a stash of cash.
I resent my ex for incarcerating our son and the program for colluding with him- both perjuring themselves in order to keep him there. No one but I can "make him accountable". So, are any of you parents promoting this notion taking any action? And if so, how's it going.
Or how else do you propose to hold parents accountable?
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So Deborah, how is resentment for your ex-husband sucking your energy? Did he want to help your son or hurt him? Did your influence on your son have anything to do with his behavior? I see you as a judgmental person. If you were my mother I would feel like I couldn't do anything "right." Does it have to look a certain way, your way, for it to be considered acceptable?
These kids are not honest when they arrive, so why all of a sudden would a staff person need to tell the parents they were lying or manipulating? They did that at home, for sometimes years, before the parents intervened. Intervention is not "throwing" them away.
No marketing company for wwasp or anyone else needs to feed on parent's fears. THey already know they need to do something drastic or they wouldn't have called in the first place. They are there to provide an option PERIOD.
I'll tell you who feeds on the fears of parents. PURE...have you taken a look at what their website is all about. It's ALL about Fear. What do you have to say about that?
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One BIGGIE that you forgot to say is that it is the WHOLE family that is in breakdown, not just the kid. Will a 28 day rehab for the teen only help that in the long term? There are several levels of the change process, both for the teen and the parents. Is the answer going to a counselor week after week for years with minimal results if the whole family isn't willing to take a look at what they need or want to change? Reb works, counseling works, parenting works, but only if they do the work.
Behavior modification is drastic, not always comfortable, but needed in many families.
Those holier than thou that feel they made it through their teen years unscathed are judging those that weren't. Yes, they may be alive, but what is the baggage they carry that keeps them from living life to the fullest? Behavior change programs give them a bigger picture, more choices, and a feeling of self worth. It works until they come home to parents that didn't do the work and refuse to see what part they played in the breakdown to begin with. The teen that came home with confidence can either immediately go back into their crap or stand for their own success. It's hard to do the latter when the parents expect perfection, but some overcome their parents influences.
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On 2003-10-13 20:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So Deborah, how is resentment for your ex-husband sucking your energy? Did he want to help your son or hurt him? Did your influence on your son have anything to do with his behavior? I see you as a judgmental person. If you were my mother I would feel like I couldn't do anything "right." Does it have to look a certain way, your way, for it to be considered acceptable?
These kids are not honest when they arrive, so why all of a sudden would a staff person need to tell the parents they were lying or manipulating? They did that at home, for sometimes years, before the parents intervened. Intervention is not "throwing" them away.
No marketing company for wwasp or anyone else needs to feed on parent's fears. THey already know they need to do something drastic or they wouldn't have called in the first place. They are there to provide an option PERIOD.
I'll tell you who feeds on the fears of parents. PURE...have you taken a look at what their website is all about. It's ALL about Fear. What do you have to say about that? "
:eek: You are very intuitive. Hit the nail on the head!!!
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Basically desperate parents. They just want the daily problems of dealing with their kid to stop and they are not willing to accept any responsibility for the problems.
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Face Khan, I kind of agree about the desperate parent?s issues, but the bottom line for me as a parent, was wanting something better for my child.
I'd already experienced all of the things the kid was doing; maybe I just knew when to stop. My child was going way down the same road I traveled. It was very scary, the problems were not mine, and we had and still have a great relationship. My child just decided one day that not participating in school was an option.
Needless to say that is when I stepped in and made the mistake of choosing a "program". Just because this "program" didn't live up to their end of the deal, should I be the blame? My child doesn't carry a grudge against me, I felt disappointed in the "program" and their actions, for the money I spent, etc... But why should I be made to feel like shit because someone else didn't live up to my family's expectations?
It has turned out for the better now. The "program" is only memories to all of us. Unfortunately, the "program" still exists and is allowed to continue to operate under the same false pretences as my family was led to believe they would provide my child.
How many children in the US alone grow up without the help of a "program"? How many grow up in a "program"?
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Anon wrote: "Just because this "program" didn't live up to their end of the deal, should I be the blame?"
What does that mean? What didn't they live up to?
You used the word "blame" - what does that mean to you?
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***So Deborah, how is resentment for your ex-husband sucking your energy?
Is this yet another attempt to "coach" me without my permission? FYI, my ex has apologized for what he did- defered to the whims of his narcissistic, sociopathic, irrational, unreasonable wife (his ex wife, that is).
***Did your influence on your son have anything to do with his behavior?
What "behavior" are you ASSuming landed my son in a teen warehousing facility?
***I see you as a judgmental person.
Honey, we're all judgmental. We all have our opinions and the freedom to express them. Our judgments of right/wrong, abuse/therapy happen to conflict- and I imagine that your comment was actually an indirect communication :question:
I imagine that you resent me for my opinions of the industry and those who profit from it. I make no apologies.
**If you were my mother I would feel like I couldn't do anything "right." Does it have to look a certain way, your way, for it to be considered acceptable?
You'll have to clarify that last comment. I imagine that you disagree with something I said and instead of sharing your own opinion, you chose to attack me- implying that I'm a control freak or perfectionist or whatever it is you're implying. Ironically enough, you and other program advocates have a definite "judgment" regarding what a teen should "look like" ("your" way) in order to be "considered acceptable".
***These kids are not honest when they arrive, so why all of a sudden would a staff person need to tell the parents they were lying or manipulating?
I'll refer you to my previous message for the answer I've already given. There is a blatant double standard and conflict of interest regarding lying and honesty. Programs/ staff do and will continue to lie or withhold information to protect their livlihood. The teens know they are lying, and yet they are held to a higher standard and punished for perceived lies. What might a teen learn from this?
***No marketing company for wwasp or anyone else needs to feed on parent's fears. THey already know they need to do something drastic or they wouldn't have called in the first place. They are there to provide an option PERIOD.
Parents "think", based on their fears, that drastic measures are needed and hundreds of facilities are there to "validate", reenforce, and capitalize on those fears.
***I'll tell you who feeds on the fears of parents. PURE...have you taken a look at what their website is all about. It's ALL about Fear. What do you have to say about that?
My judgment of Ed Cons is the same as teen warehousing facilities.
I imagine that you know that you're not going to persuade me to change my opinions; and I don't believe for a second that you are sincerely interested in me or my son; so whose benefit were your questions and comments really intended for? Don't address me when your defensive efforts are designed for the public- some unsuspecting parent that might stumble onto this thread. I imagine you would like to engage me in an ongoing argument so you have a venue to spout your BS judgments under the guise of having a dialogue with me. You're so full of shit. Yep, another judgment.
Which facility is your warehouse of choice? I don't think you mentioned that. Did you have a child there, and did you or do you still receive any compensation for promoting the warehouse?
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Deborah - I just thought I'd hit on something you wrote to someone.
No, we are not all judgmental - speak for yourself. I judge (ascertain) which is a survival/human thing, and possibly an animal instinct as well.
judgmental vs. judgment - one's an energy suck, guess which one :wink:
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My judgment is that you're also a liar, or should I soften that with a little psych twist and say you're in denial. Of course you are judgmental about SOMEthing. I feel so certain, I'd put a wager on it.
And now you're going to throw another "drive by" while slinking back to your corner without answering the questions posed to you. Energy Suck... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I imagine typing out all your erroneous ASSumptions and imaginings about me and my situation are sucking alot of your energy???
You have demonstrated the MO of program advocates so well. ASSume your generic imaginings apply to everyone and avoid questions. So program of you.
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On 2003-10-13 21:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But why should I be made to feel like shit because someone else didn't live up to my family's expectations? "
Maybe your family's expectations were unreasonable. It does happen, ya' know? Who knows, your son might have (still may) grow up to be just like some of the more stellar drop outs and flunkies in history. Here's a list of some accomplished folk who either passed on or were never offered conventional education:
Gen. George Patton
Abigail Adams
James Madison
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Cyrus McCormick
Theodore Roosevelt
Hans Christian Andersen
Daniel Webster
Claude Monet
C.S. Lewis
John Stuart Mill
Albert Einstein
John Quincy Adams
Ben Franklin
Alexander Graham Bell
Douglas MacArthur
James Monroe
Patrick Henry
Pearl Buck
Thomas Edison
Andrew Carnegie
Brett Harte
Wolfgang Mozart
Wilbur & Orville Wright
Florence Nightingale
Stonewall Jackson
George Washington Carver
Abraham Lincoln
Blaise Pascal
Mark Twain
Charlie Chaplin
Charles Dickens
Agatha Christie
Woodrow Wilson
Winston Churchill
Leo Tolstoy
William Penn
George Bernard Shaw
George Rogers Clark
Phyllis Wheatley
Pierre Curie
John Wesley
Pierre DuPont
Albert Schweitzer
No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats---approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
--Lazlo's Chinese Relativity Axiom:
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Deb -
I posted some other "drive by comments"
Then you asked my story.
I didn't answer - there was no story.
This other stuff isn't my drive by.
I don't know you or have any beef with you.
My beef is mainly with pure and the people trying to play both sides on their roster.
I will now be marking my comments as :
Drive By
What else?
So anyways, that was someone else pretending to know your story, not me and my drive by comments.
Thought I'd let you know to bark the other way.
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On 2003-10-13 20:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"These kids are not honest when they arrive, so why all of a sudden would a staff person need to tell the parents they were lying or manipulating? They did that at home, for sometimes years, before the parents intervened.
Good question! Why do you feel the need to constantly tell parents what to make of the kid they've known since birth or to monitor all communications between parent and child?
They already know they need to do something drastic or they wouldn't have called in the first place. They are there to provide an option PERIOD.
They may think they do. But you don't know a damned thing except the ability of the parent to pay. For all you know, you're doing the work of some sadistic child molester to keep the kid from talking. Do you give a flyin' run at a rollin' donought? Hell no, long as the checks keep on rollin' in. (sick fucks!)
I'll tell you who feeds on the fears of parents. PURE...have you taken a look at what their website is all about. It's ALL about Fear. What do you have to say about that? "
Oh yea! Talk about the pot calling the cannabis green! "If your teenager acts like she's embarrased to be seen with you, she might be carrying on a secret double life as a dope dealing madam with AIDS!!!! :eek: Arrrrrgh!!! Quick! Before she DIES!!!! Just give me your credit card and we'll have her picked up tomorrow morning at around 3AM. You might want to give her some pills before bed so she won't "hurt herself" trying to fight off the retired Marines who do our deliveries for us."
Why, you'd NEVER say something like that to close a deal, would you???? Do you support drug prohibition because it finances criminals at home or because it finances terrorists abroad?
--Anonymous
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American drug war P.O.W.
10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous
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so i know exactly what you are upset about.
i was there for almost a year and a half, and saw some really messed up things.
i dont even like to talk about it, but it helps.
if you have questions you can call me. email me at [email protected]
-anna lusk
at csa from march 23, 2003 to july 10, 2004
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I am a transporter and That statement was ridiculous, at least with our company. I don't know about the others. But We are trained counslers and do try to councel the kids i transport and get them in the best state of mind possible by the time they get to the school they are being sent to. I know most of you hate me a nd what i do, but i would rather it be me who takes a kid, instead of most of the other company's which is just an exspesive cab ride.
I never use hadcuffs unless i have to which is very rare. Most of the kids i take are pissed and don't want to go, but cooperate with me and we end up having a few good talks and i can try to get them to see that what they have been doing could have them end up dead or in jail, and that is not an option for thier parents.
Some of you on here are really the brainwashed ones. I don't agree withe everything that happens at these schools, but for most of the parents there is no other option.
The one that cares. Merry X-mas
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On 2004-12-24 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
i can try to get them to see that what they have been doing could have them end up dead or in jail, and that is not an option for thier parents.
Who the hell are you to make that determination? We have the best system ever devised by man for determining whether or not someone is going to land up in jail. It involves a grand jury, a prosecutor, a defense atty, a petit jury and evidence, not just the wild claims of distraught (possibly unstable) parents.
That's the problem, bud. You just keep on telling yourself your the good guy in all this. But the fact remains that you have no real right to even consider handcuffing anybody. Why should we take advice on sex from the Pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
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Oh, so you're a kidnapper who 'cares' and provides counceling so the child can accept they were abducted and are now being held captive? Oh and someone who actually doesnt want to submit 'makes' you cuff them?
You make a living off of stealing freedom and happiness from kids and shipping them off to those hellhole camps. Oh well, I guess the absolute terror is part of some twisted therapeutic process.
Fuck off and die.A free people ought...to be armed...
George Washington, 1790
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On 2004-12-24 13:51:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
Oh well, I guess the absolute terror is part of some twisted therapeutic process.
I know you're being sarcastic here, but...
It is. In order to break someone, to force them to adopt a way of thinking against their will, you have to disorient them. They have to be stressed and emotionally off-balance to the point where they doubt their own judgement, memories and perceptions. Doubt is a real frightening feeling when it pervades your whole existance like that. To make it stop, you just accept a version of things that's acceptable to whoever's in charge so that you'll get acceptance, tokens and status from them instead of more stress. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
George Orwell, 1984
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*sigh*
And unfortunately, the jarheads who kidnap them and the boneheads who do this to them think they're doing a favor.In order to live free and happily you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.
-- Richard Bach
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On 2004-12-24 15:04:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"*sigh*
And unfortunately, the jarheads who kidnap them and the boneheads who do this to them think they're doing a favor.In order to live free and happily you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.
-- Richard Bach
"
I'd say they need money, bad, and *rationalize* the lousy thing they're doing by telling themselves they're doing the kid a favor.
People can rationalize all kinds of cruddy behavior---especially when they get paid for it.
Timoclea
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That is fuuny, happiness, most of these kids don't know happiness, because they are hurting so bad inside and are doing drugs and acting out in other ways because of it.I'm sorry if some of you have had bad experiences, and some have you might have never gotten to the nature of your hurt also.But the vast majority of the kids i pick up need help and allot of it. I was not being sarcastic when i said merry xmas. There is no need to be so rude and use profanity on this board or any other. I knoe i am helping kids, wheather you people think so or not. Your opinion is so one sided it means nothing to me.
The one that cares
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Har Har.
For one, not all the kids there are actually acting out or having drugs! Wow! Bye bye excuse.
Two. If they need help, being terrified and toremented until you behave and conform, isnt going to fix their problem. They cant have drugs because they're inside of the compound, but it doesnt fix their underlying problem. And dont tell me they give therapy, we both know all these places do is terrify them into obedience.
Your role consists of abduction and captivity until you deliver them to the program. That alone is attrocious unless you're an actual LEO and they actually commited a crime or had a reason to be detained. Because some parent said so is not okay.
Furthermore, you still wont realize the simple fact that the programs NEVER give any details about what they do. They are EXTREMELY secretive. Why dont you question that? Not paid to think?
YOUR opinion is so onesided its pointless. You 'knoe' you are helping kids because if you didnt think so you'd have to accept you were hauling them off to a business that makes money by keeping them captive and still has yet to demonstrate they offer any therapy AT ALL.WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION
-- Ethiopian Proverb
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2004-12-24 17:01 ]
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Very Wrong, I don;t care if you don't believe that I care for each kid i pick upand of course i can;t councel them all, because some are so angry there is no getting to them, but the majority seem to get along with me and the schools i take them to, I know are strict, but i have also taking kids from one program to another and some that i had taken up there originally and they tell me what goes on behind close doors and sure i don't agrre with some of the rules, but there is no beatings or other phsical abuse, from what these kids say. I know you are going to say they will be in trouble if they tell me the truth, but they have already been kicked out of the school and they have no reason to lie because no one can do anything to them. It Also seems allot of you were in some of theses places along time ago, such as i was at my boarding school i went to 20 something years ago. Things can change and i am sure there are some bad places andf some bad people working at them, but i don't see that at the schools i go to, i just see a very stict program with allot of caring. Of course all don;t care on the same level, but such is life. Remeber i went to one of these schools and did not graduate the program and even if i did it would not have been brainwashing. And by the way most of the kids i pick up need something and most are doing drugs and showing major disrespect for thier families, who should be the most important people in ones life. Again Merry Xmas to all, The one that cares
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and of course i can;t councel them all, because some are so angry there is no getting to them
No way! kids are abducted in the middle of the night, hauled off to a far away gulag, and then they get ANGRY about it? how DARE they? Kidnappind a kid is the ultimate show of kindness and care! How DARE these spolied brats get upset about being KIDNAPPED???
but the majority seem to get along with me and the schools i take them to
How do you know? Do you keep in touch with every kid you kidnap?
sure i don't agrre with some of the rules, but there is no beatings or other phsical abuse from what these kids say. I know you are going to say they will be in trouble if they tell me the truth, but they have already been kicked out of the school and they have no reason to lie because no one can do anything to them.
Again, how do you know their situation? These kids have already been kidnapped once. They have very good reasons to fear it will happen again. So like many other kids who got out of gulags, they put on a show for their parents, so they could keep themselves safe.
It Also seems allot of you were in some of theses places along time ago, such as i was at my boarding school i went to 20 something years ago. Things can change and i am sure there are some bad places andf some bad people working at them, but i don't see that at the schools i go to, i just see a very stict program with allot of caring.
Again, how would you know? All you saw is wha they chose to show you.
Remeber i went to one of these schools and did not graduate the program and even if i did it would not have been brainwashing.
Again, you have no way of knowing that. Many program grads and others who come here insist that what they've been through was not brainwashing, but at the same time they believe everything the program tells them, they are completely convinced that their program can do no wrong, and they believe that any bad info about their program must be a lie.
And by the way most of the kids i pick up need something
You never mentioned any professional credentials. Who are you to determine whether they "need" something or not?
and most are doing drugs and showing major disrespect for thier families, who should be the most important people in ones life.
Yes, their families should be the most important people in their lives. But instead, you take them away from their families into places that will, in most cases, restrict their communication with their families and will take over the family in the child-raising department.
You're full of it. Your rationalizations don't stand a chance. You've convinced yourself that you are "caring" and "helpful" so you won't have to face what you're doing to innocent children. You kidnap children for a living, and send them to gulags. How much lower can a person go?
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And it is the parents choice to send them away, not mine. I provide a safe and sometimes beneficail way for the kids transport and i have seen allot of kids i took to these schools who are doing very well and hold no ill will towards me. You will never agree with me so i will jsut leave it at that, again these kids are going wheather i take them or not, another company who will handcuff the kid for no reason and will just be a exspensive cab ride will, so i would rather i did it.Again because i care about what i do!! The one that cares
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You're *so* full of it. You really are.
You cant tell us, or yourself, what these programs really do in there, or how they 'get through to them'.
You cant tell us or yourself why they have to be kidnapped and held captive for months to years to 'get through to them' to fix them.
Kidnapping is traumatic. Its torture in and of itself. You've been taken away from your family by some brute and put into a car and said you're being taken away to be fixed. Why wouldn't they be scared or mad? Get through to them? They were fucking kidnapped, by YOU.
These programs, and I'll ask twice in one post... WHAT DO THEY DO? HOW DO THEY DO IT? WHY DO YOU NEED TO BE LOCKED UP FOR YEARS TO GET 'FIXED?' Care to answer anything? You cant.
You cant tell anyone even in the slightest detail how they do any of this, but yet you support them so much. Think about that.
Think long and HARD about that.
Because its your responsibility to do so as a human being. You've taken their rights and freedoms away and you're taking them off to these mysterious, secretive places - you're the last human being between them and the gates of hell.
And you get PAID for it!
You still cant say anything for what they supposedly do at all (3 times in one post, lets see if you answer NOW) you cant say anything for the places that WERE closed, and you cant say anything for the fact that for 20+ years, in all programs, all people in there from all over the country, all walks of life, and from that said 20 year span, all have the same kinds of accusations.
Every child in there, every parent out here, every survivor and victim, and most importantly the ones YOU TAKE, deserve some answers.
I'm waiting. Gingers been waiting 20 years. Cleo's been waiting 10. Tens of thousands of others have been waiting too.
Its time for you to give an answer.Theology: The effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
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Why should i have to answer to your problems, i have nothing to do with what you went through. By the way i saw a few kids today at one of the schools who i took there about a year ago and guess what they were happy to see me, they seemed very happy and healty, they were telling me of thier plans for college and were all almost out of there. Oh they also hugged me goodbye. Very interesting? 2 of them were 18 and staying there on thier own. Very interesting, why would they stay if they were being abused in any way? I again don't have to answer to you for your problems, but i will say it sounds like allot of you never got the help you needed and still could use allot of therapy! I'm done with this thread. I will reply again when i feel it is worth it for me to give my time to this board. You are all a riot! The one that cares
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Why should i have to answer to your problems, i have nothing to do with what you went through.
No one asked you to answer to anyone's "problems". People posed some very valid question and observations, which you choose to ignore.
By the way i saw a few kids today at one of the schools who i took there about a year ago and guess what they were happy to see me, they seemed very happy and healty, they were telling me of thier plans for college and were all almost out of there. Oh they also hugged me goodbye. Very interesting? 2 of them were 18 and staying there on thier own. Very interesting, why would they stay if they were being abused in any way?
Maybe because they were made to believe that the abuse they have been through was normal and good and necessary. It happens in a lot of these places. Kids are programmed to confuse between "abuse" and "discipline"/"Help".
I again don't have to answer to you for your problems, but i will say it sounds like allot of you never got the help you needed and still could use allot of therapy!
Again, you have no professional credentials or sufficient information to decide whether anyone here is in need of "help" or "therapy". Just like you can't decide whether the children you kidnap are in need of "help".
I'm done with this thread. I will reply again when i feel it is worth it for me to give my time to this board. You are all a riot! The one that cares
So you will only reply when you hear what you want to hear, something that fits into your "I help children by kidnapping them" delusion.
Keep waiting, you won't hear that from me. You kidnap children and take them away against their will. There is nothing helpful or good about that, and there never will be, no matter how you try to spin it.
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Do you really, honestly believe the crap you're writing? Kids are abused into believing what? :wstupid:
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STILL no answers. Wow. Amazing.
Leaving so you dont have to be confronted for not answering either, are we?
The only one you care about is yourself. Happy newyear, kidnapper.When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days. Times have changed. The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif
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On 2004-12-26 23:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Do you really, honestly believe the crap you're writing? Kids are abused into believing what? :wstupid: "
Yes, kids are abused into believing the program "saved" them. They are pressured in such an extreme way that they will eventually surrender their own beliefs and way of thinking and accept the program ideology.
Just like you did. Rememder Discovery? Remember playing silly games, such as connect the dots, in which the main idea was that you are always wrong, no matter what you do, and the facilitator is always right? Remember being stood up in front of a group of strangers, being made to tell them private information about yourself, and then standing there while the group and the facilitator use that information to ridicule you and distort your view of what happened?
Remember leaving that seminar, convinced that everything you knew/thought/believed in so far was wrong, that the program can do no wrong, and that anyone who says otherwise is a liar?
I'm sure you do. And I feel sorry for you. You can't even think beyond the limitation imposed on you.
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Agian I was so impressed by the change in these 3 kids i saw and others in the past. I have also had kids tell me when i take them that they think the program is not all the bad, sure they don't agree with some of the rules, but they said it helps if you want it to. By the way my credentials Degree in Drug counsiling. And all the crap I wnet through as a teenager, which in my opinion helps me vastly more than my degree.
I have been able to bond with so many kids and get them ready to turn thier lives around and relize how important family is, and after seeing the 3, who one i did have to cuff to take, but was uncuffed 5 mins. later, because i hate to use them at all and the girl was ready to have them off. Maybe she hate s me for it, but seeing her yesterday and the smile on her face which i would be able to tell if it was fake or not and was very real. They all had a wonderful glow in thier eyes and faces and were so proud of themselves and i told them how proud i was of them also.I know that every kid i take up thier does not get better and some do well, then go home and srew up I didby the way after 8 months at me school.After yesterday i have been confirmed on what great work i am doing. I have not told you this, but i do blame the parents for every kid, that i have to take. But the child has to be responsible a little. Also if the 2 cops i had to deal with the other day, did not arrest me when they came to the house because of a 911 callthat they thought we were kidnapping the kid and after showing my paper work and ID. I was told good luck and have a nice day. Sorry all you peaople that think what i do is illegal. It is very legal.
As for how these kids turned thier lives around and how the school does it, i don't work for the school, i just brinhg the kids. I have taken tours and gotten many thank yous from parents, and also seen allot of kids and now seen a few that have done it all the way and i feel so rewarded for what i do. Again i am sorry if anyone here had a bad experience, but i have not seen anything bad at any of theses schools i go to. The one that cares.
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Agian I was so impressed by the change in these 3 kids i saw and others in the past. I have also had kids tell me when i take them that they think the program is not all the bad, sure they don't agree with some of the rules, but they said it helps if you want it to.
After being abuse, broken down, and humiliated, these kids will say anything to avoid being sent back. That is, unless they've been broken down completely, in which case they usually take on the belief system of the program, which states that the program is good and helpful.
By the way my credentials Degree in Drug counsiling. And all the crap I wnet through as a teenager, which in my opinion helps me vastly more than my degree.
How much counseling experience do you actually have? You contiuously make statements about kids who "need help". Do you actually know anything about these kids, other than what their hysterical parents tell you? Have you ever performed a real, clinical evaluation on a child to see what they really need, if they need anything at all? Do you even have the skills to perform such an evaluation?
and after seeing the 3, who one i did have to cuff to take, but was uncuffed 5 mins. later, because i hate to use them at all and the girl was ready to have them off.
You have no authority to handcuff anyone. You are not a policeman. There is never a justification to use force against a child. You do not "have to" cuff anyone. You have kidnapped this child by force.
Maybe she hate s me for it, but seeing her yesterday and the smile on her face which i would be able to tell if it was fake or not and was very real.
I don't believe you.
They all had a wonderful glow in thier eyes and faces and were so proud of themselves and i told them how proud i was of them also.
Now that sounds like the type of propaganda a program would write to convince senseless, hysterical parents that a bunch of money hungry strangers can take care of their child better than they can.
After yesterday i have been confirmed on what great work i am doing.
You kidnap children, sometimes by force. There is nothing "great" about that. It is disgusting and deplorable. You make money off the suffering of children.
Also if the 2 cops i had to deal with the other day, did not arrest me when they came to the house because of a 911 callthat they thought we were kidnapping the kid and after showing my paper work and ID. I was told good luck and have a nice day. Sorry all you peaople that think what i do is illegal. It is very legal.
So, if some drug lord would give you some cahs nad tell you to go kidnap a competitor, that would be illegal, right? But if it's a minor who has no legal rights to begin with, that must be just fine. Wake up, what you're doing is called KIDNAP, and it is illegal. These cops were not doing their job, which is to defend the public-- children included-- from people like you. You belong in prison.
I have taken tours and gotten many thank yous from parents, and also seen allot of kids and now seen a few that have done it all the way and i feel so rewarded for what i do.
You only see what they want you to see. But I'm cure that even if they'd show you the solitary confinement cells, the rotten food, and the emotional abuse these kids go through you'd think it's okay, because it's "treatment". You are disgusting.
Has anyone here ever read any govertnmental documents concerning the detaining of suspects? Someone posted these a few months ago. In these documents, it was recommended to arrest suspects in the middle of the night, to surprise them in their own homes, and to take them away, by force if necessary. The document stated that in this situation, suspects will become confused, disoriented, and helpless. It also states that it creates an extreme stress in the suspect and severe emotional trauma. You traumatize hundreds of children every year by kidnapping them by force. You then send them to concentration camp where they are further traumatized until they fit into the submissive robot pattern their parents wanted them to fit into.
You are a sick and twisted individual, and you deserve to be in prison.
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You are the sick one! I laugh so hard now reading your propaganda. I don't believe you either are you there? No you were at one place and not where these kids are now. If a kid does not want to work, they just sit in a room quiet until they are ready, you call that abuse?? Bottom line is all you know about most of these program is what you have heard on the internet and of the thousands of kids and parents that have been through this, very few are actually complaining. And i have delt woth police and airport TSA all over the country and have never been told that i was doing anything illegal. And i don't, because i am given custody of the child to bring to the school and i do have the right to cuff a kid if they are being a danger to them selves or anyone else. I don;t cuff a kid for screaming or crying, just if they resist phsyically.And the kid was cuffed the other day when the police came and they knew that and again looked at my very legal paperwork and said have a nice day. Question, which is better Jail or one of these schools?? Kids out there today are way more out of control than when i was teen 2o years ago, the things i have heard and seen is ridicolous, and disgusting. And i was very wild myself. 15 year old girls who have had abortions already, think giving a blow job is not sex, doing way more advanced drugs than just pot, and drinking. Stealing cars, selling crack, being shot at because of areas they go to for drugs. Straight A students who have ended up like this.No respect at all for thier parents and think being a teenager they are now old enough to do what they want and that it is thier right. Well that is just some of the reasons i have delt with. So maybe they need to see that thier parents have a right also and that is to try anything to save thier kid even if it means having someone like me to come intervene on thier behalf and help thier child. Also half of the kids at these schools are brought thier by thier parents.So i quess they are being kidnapped by thier parents to and thier parents should be arrested. But it does not matter what i say or more importantly what the kids on this board who have been through it and i have read on this board how some of them tell you that they did get nor did they see anyone get abused. But yes over all the years and all the different staff members and all the programs it owuld be immpossible to say no one has been abused, but the scale on which you people think it is happening is deffinetly not true. Shoild a parent keep letting thier kid run away from home? or get them help? Why don;t you guys try to save the baby seals or something more real.
You are very mixed up and one sided.There is no convincing you that any kid has has gotten the help they needed at these places. You are all driving with blinders on. The one that Cares
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I took my child to this school. I did not use an escort service because I felt it would be too much and unnecessary in our situation. I did not take my child there to get rid of or to put off on someone else because I didn't want responsibility. I do not like what I have seen of the adult seminars. I didn't see much of anything of value to most adults. Maybe there is to a teen. I do not know what the answer is. But neither do any of you. This is a very hard decision to make. I haven't heard any or anything specific about abuse at CSA. If someone can tell me concrete evidence of this, I will definately seriously consider it. I came here for knowledge, good or bad. I don't think you can actually blame the person a parent hires to escort their child as that person is just a conduit. The parent is the one who makes the decision to hire someone. They asked for the help. I don't like the idea of waking a kid up in the middle of the night by strangers and then handing them over to them. But, if this guy here doesn't do it someone else will. Until these schools no longer exist,there will always be a position open for this task.
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On 2005-01-12 08:19:00, chi3 wrote:
"I took my child to this school. I did not use an escort service because I felt it would be too much and unnecessary in our situation. I did not take my child there to get rid of or to put off on someone else because I didn't want responsibility. I do not like what I have seen of the adult seminars. I didn't see much of anything of value to most adults. Maybe there is to a teen. I do not know what the answer is. But neither do any of you. This is a very hard decision to make. I haven't heard any or anything specific about abuse at CSA. If someone can tell me concrete evidence of this, I will definately seriously consider it. I came here for knowledge, good or bad. I don't think you can actually blame the person a parent hires to escort their child as that person is just a conduit. The parent is the one who makes the decision to hire someone. They asked for the help. I don't like the idea of waking a kid up in the middle of the night by strangers and then handing them over to them. But, if this guy here doesn't do it someone else will. Until these schools no longer exist,there will always be a position open for this task.
"
Chi3--I'm sorry you're having to deal with this situation. I gave my advice in another thread. I wish you the best of luck in getting the best possible care for your child. I don't think at this point that any of us have enough information to tell whether your child needs to be involuntarily committed, or has a problem that will be worsened by the particular program she's in, or not.
I *do* know that I would not trust any program that tried to brainwash me with the care of my child no matter *what* my child's particular problems were.
I don't know what sort of help your kid needs because I don't know enough about the problem.
However, it seems to me you have good reasons for your misgivings about this particular program all on your own, and I would urge you to trust those instincts.
It seems to me that you can't get the help your child needs until you know exactly what's wrong.
The things that make me suspect a hard knock on the head is that you can tell me the precise age at which things started to go wrong, and you only tell us *one* really unusual symptom "lies and lies and lies" and not a whole cluster of symptoms that would fit a known disorder. It may be that you just didn't tell us as much as you could've (and why would you?--we're total strangers), or it may be that there's a sudden onset and just one or two really vivid symptoms that don't fit well with any one diagnosis---which tends to be the kind of "one-off" profile you get from brain damage following a concussion. But it's just a guess in the dark over the internet, so don't place too much stock in it unless you can trace it to a hard knock on the head, maybe enough to lose consciousness briefly, about six weeks before you started noticing the symptoms.
Anyway, regardless, you need to know exactly what your child's problem is, and you need a treatment plan you're much more comfortable with than you apparently are with the one you have.
Which can be tough because these programs make you pay so much up front, that will be forfeited if you pull your kid, that it makes it a real wrench to change your kid's treatment plan if the program doesn't work out---which is why they do it.
*IF* you decide to change, contact ISAC (you can find them on Google) they may have some information for your attorney that may help you get out of some of the worse financial consequences of pulling your child out. Some of the contracts these places make you sign sound real scary, but are legally invalid and won't hold up in court. You may have more rights, financially, and better options, than you think you do.
TimocleaWriting about music is like dancing about architecture.
--
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On 2005-01-12 08:19:00, chi3 wrote:
"I took my child to this school. I did not use an escort service because I felt it would be too much and unnecessary in our situation. I did not take my child there to get rid of or to put off on someone else because I didn't want responsibility. I do not like what I have seen of the adult seminars. I didn't see much of anything of value to most adults. Maybe there is to a teen. I do not know what the answer is. But neither do any of you. This is a very hard decision to make. I haven't heard any or anything specific about abuse at CSA. If someone can tell me concrete evidence of this, I will definately seriously consider it. I came here for knowledge, good or bad. I don't think you can actually blame the person a parent hires to escort their child as that person is just a conduit. The parent is the one who makes the decision to hire someone. They asked for the help. I don't like the idea of waking a kid up in the middle of the night by strangers and then handing them over to them. But, if this guy here doesn't do it someone else will. Until these schools no longer exist,there will always be a position open for this task.
"
For specific info about CSA, look here:
http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsam.html#csa (http://www.isaccorp.org/documentsam.html#csa)
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Isac is just opinions, not facts. Like this board.
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On 2005-01-12 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Isac is just opinions, not facts. Like this board."
ISAC provides some facts. Specifically, when parents dealing with programs, and they have a dispute, ISAC can help provide information for their lawyer about what legal strategies have worked in other courts in the past---which saves their lawyer time, and saves the parents money.
Also, people's personal experiences are not opinions, they're allegations, and they're eyewitness testimony.
Whether a person believes them versus the program's assertions and testimonials or not is his or her decision.
But they're not mere opinions, someone's statements about their own personal experience in particular programs is actual evidence. What weight a person gives that evidence, whether someone personally finds a particular witness credible or not, *is* individual opinion.
And citations to studies and findings of various organizations are facts. Courtroom determinations and citations thereto are facts. Citations to news articles about deaths, prosecutions, and closings of facilities by government authorities are facts.
That you would classify all this different stuff together, higgeldy-piggeldy, as "opinion" tells me that you're either evaluating it on a very shallow level or that you don't have much experience supporting your positions on a subject with evidence and reason.
This isn't a purely black or white issue.
There are people of all ages who need residential care so badly they really need to be involuntarily committed. There are people of all ages who don't absolutely require involuntary commitment, but who would benefit from proper treatment in a residential setting. There are people of all ages who do bad things and deserve incarceration to protect other people and their property from them.
There's good residential treatment and there's bad residential treatment and there's mediocre residential treatment.
There's proper incarceration with due process that respects the prisoner's basic human rights, and there's abusive incarceration that needs improvement. There are variations of severity of abuses.
It's not a black and white issue.
There are shades of gray, and only an absolutely fanatical ideologue would maintain that *all* residential treatment or incarceration should be shut down (and I know of *nobody* here who advocates that), and only an absolutely fanatical ideologue would maintain that the programs *don't* need improvements in certain areas and better oversight to ensure quality of care.
That the programs fight absolutely tooth and nail against the idea that any facility that holds and treats children should have to be licensed by the state and periodically inspected to ensure it meets standards makes them look like irrational, crooked fanatics.
If they don't want to wear the label, then they need to start being *reasonable* about basic licensing and oversight.
Timoclea
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
--Charles Austin Beard
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And, lest we forget, at age two comes the first big push toward independence which includes defiance, testing the limits. And dare I use the M word, they can also begin to manipulate (early lying) the people in their environment if they have been exposed to it in its overt or covert forms. This is a crucial phase and a parent can set their child up on a difficult path if they aren't careful and thoughtful with their responses and interactions.
Lying is not a mental illness. Children at that age don't lie. It's usually a lttle later, after a few spankings or other harsh consequences and an association is made, when they realize that it makes sense to lie in order to possibly avoid the harsh consequence that being honest might bring to bare. Very basic suvival instincts. We all do it to some degree or an other. Don't put so much importance on this. Don't identify it as a 'problem' but an indicator that something is amiss.
If your child lies, it's because you haven't fostered mutually respectful communication. And chances are good that your consequences are too harsh.
While it is geared toward smaller children, watch Nanny 911. You might get a feel for where things went wrong, way back then, and how you might go about righting that wrong. Step One: is to admit that you probably unawarely created this situation, short of any physical injury she may have sustained.
A good book which will also provide insight into how to have a genuinely close and respectful relationship with your kids is 'Your Child's Self-Esteem' by Dorothy Corkille. Excellent reading.
We need a Teen 911. Rather than shipping off your teen to a BM facility, a mentor would live in your home, observing your interactions with your child, and provide much needed support to parent and child. I tend to believe that most therapy, one-hour-a-week-in-a-sterile-office, is not the most useful way to spend one's money or gain results. I think there are few really good therapists.
If you do catch Nanny 911, the pattern you will see over and over and over again is the parent identifying their kids as 'out of control' and in need of 'being fixed'. Har!! Nanny proceeds to foster a respectful relationship with the kids while confronting the parents about their ignorant and/or harsh parenting style, sometimes to the point of the parent having a much needed emotional release.
This type of in-home resource, mentoring is so badly needed today. We are witnessing the ravages of parentless homes. Not fair or rational to blame the kids.
Parents today are terrified of inflicting permanent psych damage to their child by setting limits. The children are indeed in charge of the house with more power and responsibility than they know what to do with. It is not respectful to give them such an inaccurate view of their place in the world. And parents of teens wonder why their teen 'runs over them'. You wouldn't allow anyone else to do that, why your child? They need to learn they are not slave or master, but an equal human being with rights and responsibilities.
Want to try a radical approach? Tell her that you are done with punishments and consequences. You just want to understand why she appears to be so unhappy. Not a peace with herself. Ask her to share her fears and concerns. Ask her what her goals are, short and long term. Ask if education is important. If not, is there a trade she's interested in. Explore some possibilities. If not, then it's time for the hard, cold truth. Short of physical incapacity, she must attend school or work. Her choice. For the most part, the relationship is shifting to that of a roommate situation. Certainly, you might continue to help with medical/dental, etc and this would be a gradual liberation. But, she must begin to make a financial contribution to the household, as well as other contributions toward maintenance.
If all else fails, you can take her to a homeless shelter (the safest you can find). Give her a list of numbers for social services in the community- welfare, free clinics, soup kitchens, etc. This experience can put things into perspective for a teen real quickly- over night sometimes. She may have settled into a hopeless state and need a little motivation to move from the familiar. She needs to know that you will no longer support her as an invalid, which you apologize for creating. Every hear this- Everytime you do something for someone they can do themselves, you are fostering an invalid, a dependent. It is oh so true. And of little ones as well as teens.
And she may be one of those bored teens in a culture that makes teens invisible and insignificant. Who has no hope for the future of her generation (god know that's a legimate concern and should be explored). She may thrive with the challenge to actually work and pay her way, given of course, the option to do that. To do something SHE perceives as meaningful and worthwile. Working minimum wage for a while can also change a kid's perspective on the importance of education. You must though be prepared that she may be comfortable with that for a while or forever. Education can always be persued at a later date if/when SHE decideds its important to her.
There are many ways to get from here to there. This is but one, and one that could foster a mutually respectful relationship with your daughter.
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On 2005-01-12 10:52:00, Deborah wrote:
We need a Teen 911. Rather than shipping off your teen to a BM facility, a mentor would live in your home, observing your interactions with your child, and provide much needed support to parent and child.
I think, more than that, we need to turn off the idiot box and just remember what it was like. Sorry, but it's frightening to contemplate these kids who are barely able to pick up after themselves dealing with this very complex world we're leaving to them. But that's our bed we've made now we and they have to lie in it.
When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.
William Blake
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Not suggesting another tv 'program'.
I think it would be useful for helpers to go into the home and work with parents- to help them remember 'what it was like'. And even that could be screwed up if not done well. Not talkin about CPS or casework.
It would beat the hell out of what we have, or rather don't have. If parents didn't feel so absolutely clueless and helpless, perhaps they wouldn't be pawning their kids off on strangers. Some anyway.
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Believe it or not, my daughter and i have always been very close. She is very open about many subjects. she has admitted things that kids she hangs around with have done. The problem is, she lies about everything and anything. Not just to us, but to her close friends. she has no concept that this is wrong. she doesn't even honestly seem to believe she does it. she claims to be atheist, bisexual, and yet doesn't even seem to know why and what her beliefs on these subjects are. She's very intelligent. she didn't start lying or manipulating at age 2 or so, but has always been extremely difficult and headstrong. I would say that that's normal for some people, but trust me, many, many others have noticed this and have considered her behavior very odd. she seems sometimes to be 2 different people. she has pretty extreme highs and lows, her father was very abusive, mostly to me, some to her, a little to her sib. he genuinely was suprised at times that he had abused me. he would have "blackouts" and wake up not remember anything. it was not a "ploy" he really didn't know. it was scary! he was very much jeckyl and hyde. he loved to torture people, not just hit. he also loved/tortured animals. he has no conscience, morals, or feelings of obligation to anyone. how can i know what all this means for her? i don't. i am just absolutely terrified she will turn into "him". she has so many positive characteristics, but her other "side" is very bad. Any ideas on that??
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by the way, i like the nanny 911 show. i agree with whoever said that it usually comes down to the parents being to permissive. i see that all the time. i really think we could all use help that comes and lives in and gives a view that is not jaded. it couldn't hurt!
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On 2005-01-14 03:10:00, chi3 wrote:
"Believe it or not, my daughter and i have always been very close. She is very open about many subjects. she has admitted things that kids she hangs around with have done. The problem is, she lies about everything and anything. Not just to us, but to her close friends. she has no concept that this is wrong. she doesn't even honestly seem to believe she does it. she claims to be atheist, bisexual, and yet doesn't even seem to know why and what her beliefs on these subjects are. She's very intelligent. she didn't start lying or manipulating at age 2 or so, but has always been extremely difficult and headstrong. I would say that that's normal for some people, but trust me, many, many others have noticed this and have considered her behavior very odd. she seems sometimes to be 2 different people. she has pretty extreme highs and lows, her father was very abusive, mostly to me, some to her, a little to her sib. he genuinely was suprised at times that he had abused me. he would have "blackouts" and wake up not remember anything. it was not a "ploy" he really didn't know. it was scary! he was very much jeckyl and hyde. he loved to torture people, not just hit. he also loved/tortured animals. he has no conscience, morals, or feelings of obligation to anyone. how can i know what all this means for her? i don't. i am just absolutely terrified she will turn into "him". she has so many positive characteristics, but her other "side" is very bad. Any ideas on that??"
Chi3,
This really sounds like something you should ask a professional about-- a psychiatrist or a psychologist. Have your daughter evaluated, if you haven't already. Psychological evaluations are usually very thorough, and it might also help you find proper help for her.
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oh, ihave! I can't get a straight answer from any of them. we have had several indepth analysis and get different answers, and she either lies to them, snows them, or shuts down. Some think she has no problems. her sib. says she needs help! feels she is just playing everyone. this is not out of viciousnous, but out of real love. so confusing! actually psycologist she is seeing at the "school" seems to actually kinda get her. that is the only thing that's kept me from pulling her from there.
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CHI,
I really don't understand why you keep ignoring me. Everything you have said about your daughter I have done and more. I'm more than willing to give advice. But if you don't want it you don't want it. I wasn't even going to bring up the whole WWASP thing.
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sorry perri!
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On 2005-01-14 03:41:00, chi3 wrote:
"
oh, ihave! I can't get a straight answer from any of them. we have had several indepth analysis and get different answers, and she either lies to them, snows them, or shuts down. Some think she has no problems. her sib. says she needs help! feels she is just playing everyone. this is not out of viciousnous, but out of real love. so confusing! actually psycologist she is seeing at the "school" seems to actually kinda get her. that is the only thing that's kept me from pulling her from there."
Chi3,
I understand what you're saying, but that psychologist who "gets her" is no reason to put her physical and mental well being at risk by keeping her at a WWASP facility.
There ARE good psychologists out there, and there are good, beneficial programs for kids. WWASP ISN'T one of them.
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Chi - take a look at this site, and see if what it discribes sounds familiar:
http://www.mhsanctuary.com/borderline/ (http://www.mhsanctuary.com/borderline/)
&
http://www.bpdcentral.com/index.shtml (http://www.bpdcentral.com/index.shtml)
If it does, and you keep reading, you'll learn why it is the therapist are so ineffective and how to find one that can help. It takes a dedicated and specilized therapist to help a patient over come this - and you are not going to find such a one at WWASP.
In fact, the emotioanl stress the program depends upon to Program the kids could be devistating to your daughter.