Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Nomad on July 30, 2004, 09:21:00 AM
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My intake was November 23, 1985 in Springfield. Moved up to the Boston program in (I think) January of 86. I haven?t seen a lot of postings from people around that era - wonder who's out there...
I still have flashbacks from time to time, although they are rare now. I don't know if that's as a result of my having come to terms (best I could) with being part of Straight inasmuch as one can come to accept having been in a cult, etc. or simply because it was so long ago that time even my subconscious can't remember. But now, WAY on the other side of it, I can see how it was so easy to quit smoking cigarettes (finally) by hypnosis - gee, what a surprise that I would be susceptible to it.
Anyone out there that I shared a plastic chair with?
Damon M.
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If you're who I think (your last name ends with a "z?"), you moved up quicker than anyone I'd ever seen; you were a great speaker and impressed staff right away. I think you were the only person I ever saw put in for "home" after 14 days and actually get it. Don't ask why or how I remember that...
Roy
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Yep, that's me, and I'm pretty sure I remember you (not a lot of Roys or Damons in there). I didn't go home after 14 days, just got "talk" as I recall, but I did manage to get through the program in about 7 months... I don't know if that speaks to being weak-minded and therefore able to be brainwashed faster than my fellow inmates or if I, subconsciously, realized the only way out was to play their game.
Funny the things we remember.
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oops, posted anonymously. no need for that.
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I think part of it is I always remembered people better who were from the New England area and were incarcerated in Springfield (mainly because the accent and certain references reminded me of home a little).
It was definitely about playing the game. I copped out from Springfield as soon as I got the first chance (before you came in). Had to wait till 3rd phase, because being an out-of-towner meant I had to live with another oldcomer all the time. Finally my "host brother" got some kinda of setback, leaving me as the only oldcomer in his house. Jumped out the window late at night with the newcomer, made it all the way back home to Boston and eventually some genuinely concerned friends talked me into turning myself in, convinced that if I told my parents what was REALLY going on in there, they'd never put me back in. WRONGGG!! They brought me right back (right before you came in). I don't specifically remember how they managed to get me all the way back there, but the whole time I knew that I would just do it again and never come back. I sat on front row for a couple of weeks, not motivating, getting spit on in reviews, etc... Until someone mentioned the BOSTON branch opening up soon! Boy, all of a sudden I was Straight Boy again, because I figured that would provide me a much easier trip back home so I could leave again more conveniently. And it did. And I stayed away for two years until I turned 18. Two years of solid paranoia. Saw a couple of people from Straight during that time, too, at malls and things, but by then my hair was longish and bleached, I had a mustache and almost always wore sunglasses. God I must have looked ridiculous. But hey, it was the 80s.
Sorry to ramble on your thread!
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Didn't mean to make it about ME, just about the "playing the game" comment.
Roy
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My intake was nov 21 85, but i dont remember you?
any other clues?
Marcus chatfield
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Marcus -
Your name doesn't shake anything loose, but your intake was only two days before mine... it took me a while before the fog cleared. I was only in VA until 2nd phase (I think) before I was brought up to Boston. Not a lot of time for me to make either friends or lasting impressions.
There were a few who I'll not forget from VA... Wes, Ira, Steve S (my first OC), some others.
Damon
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I thought only overagers went through that fast! Were you overage?
Also, for the one who stayed copped out for 2 years, where/how did you live? On the street?. That sucks!
There goes that Ira name again. I'm sure this is the same guy I knew. He was still there in Jan 87...diabetic, right? He was one of those long-timers, 3 years plus I bet. From NY I believe.
Later
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I guess it was pretty short... 7 1/2 months door to door (11/23/85-7/18/86). Still not sure if I was just ready, TOTALLY brainwashed, or understood that I had to play the game to get to the other side. I still remember my days, vividly, as if they were branded on my brain: 34/14/28/98/64. I suspect that part of the deal was Straight was looking to populate the MA program and I was certainly headed that way when I got off 1st phase, and I yelled good.
Ira, as I recall, was diabetic and had a problem with his skin. Sorry to hear that he rotted away in VA... I can't imagine having done a day more than I did, let alone three years.
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I was in Stoughton, MA March 12, 1987 - June 21, 1988. Damon, were you friends with Bobby K? If so I do remember you on staff. I have not seen many postings from this area either.
It's been a little over 17 years since that day and I thank everyone at Straight for getting me to where I am today.
Brainwashing is a harsh term but it does apply - at least to me. I was a 17 year old kid who needed to be taught a diff way to live and think.
Matthew
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On 2004-11-05 13:40:00, Samsam wrote:
It's been a little over 17 years since that day and I thank everyone at Straight for getting me to where I am today.
You are an idiot and a masochist if you are thanking anyone for what they did to you at Straight.
Brainwashing is a harsh term but it does apply - at least to me. I was a 17 year old kid who needed to be taught a diff way to live and think.
Matthew
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You did NOT need the abuses that were part and parcel of the Straight methodology. The fact that you thank them is a sign of severe mental disorder. You are a sick, masochistic, deluded individual if you think Straight gave you anything but a mindfuck.
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so someone thinks Straight helped them, I don't think they should get verbal abuse in response... :sad:
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It was go to see your better half last week....Hope all is well.......
The Ghost
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This is Bobby Kay...You are WHO?
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this thread sure is fucked-up lookin..someone please edit whatever caused it.
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hey guys, I was in here before when looking for sites and info on Straight, child mind torture techniques for a psychology class two years ago. Than just the other day while having nothing to do at all at work, I googled myself and among other things, came to this site again. I saw a name, Garrett, as well as Sully. I was in Straight for a little over two years '88-90, and spent a lot of time misbehaving, running away, flirting with the guys side and making ever lasting friendships. Let me know who you are if you remember the old times...
Leslie (Leigh) Albano ::flipflop:: ::flipflop:: All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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BobbyKay69 & Nomad -
The same BobbyKay69 with the bags of piss!
::jawdrop::
I miss you -
::rocker::
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I was there at the same time. Springfield then Stoughton. I know you Damon. Your mother's artwork was in the hallways of Straight...not half bad as I can remember.
I Googled "Straight Inc." today. I don't know why I have never done it before today, but I just never thought to. I know the place sucked, but I mean c'mon. Have you seen the web sites out there? "The Straights" website! Holly shnikies! Was it that bad? I was in there a full year and like I said it sucked, but there were no long term effects. And I did the full show too. Tried to cop out, got in fights in VA, got restrained, put in for withdrawal....You know the things a teenage boy is supposed to do when he's told he can't do something.
Anyway...today I'm married, have two kids, have a nice house, phat job and make lots of cash. The thing of it is, after Straight, I never drank or did a drug again.
From all I've read today it seems like, for many folks out there, Straight was the most significant thing that has ever happened to them and they have chosen to define themselves by it. Not so much on this message chain, but there are some people out there that need to move on.
By the way, Bob K, you lived at my house.
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On 2004-11-06 20:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"this thread sure is fucked-up lookin..someone please edit whatever caused it."
done...
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I too am from that era. Who remembers Dr. Levey? She handed out special meds like M&Ms.
Anonymous' posting about having a family and making lots of cash gives me pause. How many really did stay straight and is there a correlation between staying straight and being successful.
Maybe we don't need to be so philosophical. How about this? Did anyone actually stay straight who went there? It sounds like Anonymous did. Anyone know of any others?
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My life has gone on since straight. I have traveled, gone back to school, hated some and loved many. After I left straight I clowned around in Boston getting more high and more drunk than before. I allowed myself to be influenced by even more chaos than before straight because ultimately I learned that I made the decisions pertaining to my life. Unfortunately, I cared not that much about my life. However, the roots of that pathology can be traced further back than straight.
What I lost in straight was my high school education, "normal" teenage experiences and the ability to take responsibility for myself by myself. As if without intervention that could have ever taken place.
I am now 32. I have a awesome little boy who is now 9 years old. I also have a 9 year old little girl who is my foster daughter. Her mother didn't want her and would not take care of her. She had less opportunity available for her at her birth than I did in the two years I rebelled at straight. Again, choices... Usually we have some, but sometimes we do not.
I sit here at 7 months pregnant thinking about how just 2 months ago I finally had everything I ever wanted. Good job, good children, a new life on its a way for my fiancee and myself. I was so in love. On October 16th, my fiancee was killed in a car accident as he drove home after work.
That is my reality, and as you get older you find that the things that once you bitched about have really lost their relevance.
Life goes on for some and for others it does not. Everything in between is truely a mystery.
LeighFaith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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Leigh,
That is a horrible story. I'm sorry. I sincerely hope that better days are ahead for you and your children. The most important work you will ever do is within the walls of your own home. I?ve found strength by being there for my children and providing them an environment that I didn?t have.
I hope I don?t sound preachy?I?m being sincere.
Best of luck
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Thank you. At this time I appreciate all acts of kindness and sincerity. Happy holidays to all.
LGod is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"
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On 2004-10-13 08:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My intake was nov 21 85, but i dont remember you?
any other clues?
Marcus chatfield"
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sup mark john kalland here
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My deepest sympathies, Leigh.
I just emailed you after reading this
earlier this week.
I am so sorry and we are thinking of you.
S U L L Y
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I spent 7 months in Straight Sprinfield. I was there from November 86 till may 87, Ira was still there when I coped-out. He was diabetic and about 4' 11" right?
Matt Cremen
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I remember a short Ira. There are 1 or 2 others who post here from that era. Remember the misbehaver Jason?
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I think so, did he have long hair on his intake? Remember Rob Frey, and his older brother. Also that black dude Emmanuel Lewis, was bustin' many a people up. Scott Ward, Amy and joey Theismann, Ira's last name was Kaufmann. Jack Guthridge, Mike Provost, many more i can not think of. What is your name? fka
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The misbehavin' Jason you are referring to was Jason Theune. I stayed in touch with him after I got out but lost touch with him around 1989-1990. I had forgotten about Ira Kaufman. I think he was the honorary infirmary inmate. Diabetic little guy, who I used to rock out with on my sick days I had to spend in the infirmary. I saw Fred Herring post something recently, and that was good to see he is doing well.
Glad to see things are still alive and well here on Fornits.com. It's been a while since I've posted, but I guess I've got my 19th anniversary coming up, so I was thinking about the hellhole on Backlick Road again... I drove past it again on my last visit to VA wondering where many of my old friends from there have moved on to, and hoping they are doing better today than back then.
Well, that's enough memories for now... It's 4:20 and it's time to break out some of TBPITW and enjoy another day in paradise. :smokin:
Aloha!
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hi brent, do you know how jason got out? did he get pulled? i saw a dedicated misbehaver girl at an AA meeting once... probably she was court-ordered though.
hey check your pm's, there is likely stuff happening in VA this spring and summer. mr matt git yourself a userid so people can pm you.
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Hi Fka,
Jason I believe was pulled out. I know he wasn't court-ordered. Although, he might have left and then was terminated after being gone long enough. Check your PM, we can talk more there since we are off the topic here.
Aloha!
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Ok I got my ID, Hey I remember you Brent. You were tall brown hair right?
I remember when Jason punched someone in the face and blood was everywhere, then staffer Steve T. made the group drag Jason through the blood on the floor toclean it up.
Pretty sick don't you think.
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Matt Cremen
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what fucking nightmares could you possibly have? you were,of course only a specially "groomed for staff" super straightling,right? i know you had a great deal to do with what happened to me up there when i was on staff for a very short time!the only nightmares an asshole like you could have are from the guilt of ruining so many ppls lives.....please don't fucking gloat on this site about your fucking great program damon.....its all bullshit....i went up there 5 years or more sober and 3 1/2 years finished with straight,and you and your buddies gang banged the shit right out of my ass,all the while patting me on the back and acting like a friend that you respected!
then reported me for trivial bullshit for that bitch sylvia koulker and the great "dean " minstretta......hey everyone,this is one of "dean's boys"!i wonder how you fucking sleep after what you and the other assholes did to me...
i wonder if you fucking remember what that newcomer girl said to staff,{you and the other pieces of shit} when i was hastily saying my goodbyes to the group? let me refresh your clouded memory...."why do all the good staff members like matt have to leave,and assholes like DAMON get to stay....!".....your face turned as red as miller newtons when she said that!.....the fucking truth having been said,did you crusify that girl later? give her a bad deal for being HONEST?....i'll bet you did! how did you fucking feel when sylvia said,as i was "escorted" out the door..."if you ever set foot on the premises,we'll have you arrested!".....were you like all the others i have had the pleasure of confronting ?.....shocked at what happened? didn't think it would go that fucking far,damon?
let me enlighten you damon,....it didn't stop there,nope,not dean and sylvia,they couldn't just fire me and let it go....they had ppl follwing me,getting me arrested,losing my jobs,my girlfriends...whatever they could to ruin me!sad to say,short of dying,they did a good job!i wound up on the streets of boston with nothing.....they told you i was fired for "suspicion of drug use"!
the facts are,i didn't use drugs for a year later,thanks to thier concerted effort to "help" me........the other two staff trainees you helped get fired in the same week,were john p. and greg m......greg m is dead now.....he died about a year later.....it couldn't be that the bullshit you and the others did,had anything to do with it,huh?
with me,it was your mission in life to watch me....watch me?...lol....you'd never tested your
"sobriety".....more than that,you'd only been in the program for 7 fucking months! thats like me showing jerome bettis how to be a running back!
anyone that really knows you,knows you were a huge asshole.......just like when paul meyer and i had it out on here,don't fucking lie man....its just not cool! anyone who marvels at the fact that some of us,shit most of us are stuck in time
because of what happened in that place and thinks we're a joke because of it,is a fucking moron....
look on here and read some of the stuff on here...
it can't all be bullshit....in my case its not...
yes damon,i'm still very pissed off about that time in my life!i'm glad your very brief time in straight has done very little harm to you and you're doing good.....the only nightmares a person in your shoes could have are from the guilt you have for inflicting so much grief on others that were unable to defend themselves or didn't have a clue you were giving them a john holms sized schlong up the kazoo without k-y jelly......by the way,what was your unjustly reward? junior staff? a night at a barmizva with sylvia? a trip into providince town with dean and the boys?.....get fucking real....
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From all I've read today it seems like, for many folks out there, Straight was the most significant thing that has ever happened to them and they have chosen to define themselves by it. Not so much on this message chain, but there are some people out there that need to move on.
i'm glad you are doing great....none of us chose straight as a definition of our lives....it chose us! a lot of us couldn't find a way to move on! you really think that we want that? I want you to hook me up with your weed source so i can buy your stament too......what part of straight did you think was acceptable enough to forget like
some of the insignificant stuff that really did happen in our lives? oh,i know! the day i sliced my hand open cause i saw no other way out of there on my 3rd day in there right?how about the time joey glaze made me hold my urine the whole day because i didn't go to the bathroom in the "alotted" we were supposed to go?{and the whole day was a st.fucking pete openmeeting day/night} by the way this is only a couple of incidents in a 28 1/2 month program of st.pete hell!this crap was done by very unqualified "hacks" like damon,with no prior education.no licenses......thier ego's were stroked by unqualified hacks like dean minstretta
and sylvia koulker......damon and paul and the others were made to believe that what they were doing was "awarness".....thiers being soooo special!.....yeah...i'd love to move on....i didn't talk about straight for 18 + years after i was crusified by dean and sylvia and company....
but it kept haunting me.....for 26 years i've been trying very hard to move on and put my "tenure" in hell behind me......
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Matt, you and I remember things very differently.
I wish you the best of luck.
Damon
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Hey Hip,
Most everyone from Stoughton has no idea about St. Pete, or the early Springfield stuff. They only remember your time as a staff member, and you're right, most remember you in a good way. It all runs together in my mind, too.
Your experience was bad, we've talked about it.
I don't think Damon or anyone else was aware of any accusations of drug use or "bad behavior" against you. As I said, chain of command was in effect. I was told something untrue, and only people up the chain could be talked to about it.
Now dont' everyone freak out about the words I chose. I'm not brainwashed anymore, but you have to see the mind-crime from the original perspective to see how easy it was to perpetrate.
I was told by exec. staff to watch Matt closely due to several "concerns" being reported. I was to discuss this only with the Execs. As a result of the "concerns" and some incredibly timed circumstantial evidence, I reported him for something else, and Bang - he was fired.
They lied to everyone and said "Drug use".
We got played. Sound familiar? I lost a decent friend in Matt, and Matt lost nearly everything. Not fair. Not fair at all.
Hip, Honestly, your character and reputation was trashed behind your back, but by a select few, and I bought what they were selling.
I'm sorry dude. You know I am. Damon has no clue.
Some folks around here don't realize some folks' anger is therapeutic. I would like to yell back at a few old staff members too.
Peace Brother, you earned it.
Paul Meyer
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oh yeah?.....lol...i think you should read "stoughton...a question for staff and oldcomers" on this site....paul did too until we had it out damon.....i knew you'd say that! i especially knew you would !you were a prick then and you seem to be evasive about it now.you're not fooling me and scaring me away by saying "you remember things sooooo different" that just won't work!....not anymore,we're not in group where you can hide behind your "staff image" and tell someone to have a seat or hide behind sylvia's skirt!{or dean's ass} i thought it was all hazy to you!/ or is that only when its convenient for you?.....paul admitted what happened to me up there was wrong and it was a witch hunt!at first he said he remembered things differently too!....you see,i never had my say in "group".....i was simply fired and branded a fuck up damon!thats what that fucking cult you so quickly adheard to,told you about me.they fucking lied....paul and i talked for 4 hours on the phone
after our arguement on this site damon......everything you were told about me was bullshit....go ask him if you don't believe me...
or live with the illution that everything you did for dean and sylvia was for the rightious and good
of all of us "poor" abused phasers,that only you and the rest could help save......lol.......
who are you fucking kidding man?....dean became a homo!{something he promptly humped ppl for when they admitted having something like that happen to them in the past} isn't that hipocritical of him? sadistic?......sylvia was a homo too.she definatly wasn't wearing "victoria's secret"....maybe victors secret,i don't know.....
you tell everyone on here that you hardly remember what happened way back then,but then you promptly remember your days on your phases and me.....a dumb assed 7 stepper who was hardly on staff up there{5 weeks}that was a joke to you all.....i was never part of that place.neither was i a staff member....i was somthing sylvia and dean wanted out of there in a big hurry.....i wasn't a controlable "hack" that would do anything they said.you were.i questioned authority,you didn't.therefore, what ever they said about me,you believed....you believed it so much,you helped them ruin my life damon.thats what cult leaders do....and what the followers like you did! worse than that,you honestly thought you were "helping" me and protecting the group from me.....!tell me damon,did i hurt your
program when you were in virginia? i came in on my own to help you guys....a promise i made to everyone the night i 7 stepped....unlike others,my promise wasn't hollow.....yes,i grew my hair long,wore tye-dyes,drove a muscle car and yet,i was never told NOT to come into the building
.....if i was soooooo full of shit,there's no way i or anyone else could or would even think of going into the building,just out of fear of being forced back in there,we would stay away....but there i was......obviously a dumbass for doing so!
i'm not mad at paul anymore....disappointed,but not mad......we worked everything out the best we could under the circumstances.my hachet with him is buried.you say it was a cult,and you're glad to be done with it.you say that you have nightmares about it....can't believe how terrible it was in there....? can't it just be possible that they PLAYED you about me? tricked you into believing a bunch of bogus bullshit to stimulate the manipulation of my being full of shit?nooooo,straight wouldn't do that! would they?....
like a fucking X-FILE...."the truth is out there"
tell me damon,did you smoke weed or drink or anything else after you finally left straight? did you "fuck up" all on your own?or were you too,"helped" by bunch of assholes,like i was? anyways,i've said what i needed to and don't worry,i won't bother you or follow you around and scrutinise your every move like you all did to me,
it's not my style....never was....hippie
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tell damon that.....he seems to think it was different....on my last letter,i told him we hashed it out.....i have no anamosity towards you anymore paul....i just hurt all over.he was an arrogant prick towards me.....but,just like you,he is forgivable....mike too.....dean and sylvia?....good lord man,.....i don't know what i'd do if i saw them.probably nothing....you know the worst paul?i tried to call ireen b.,but i never got a return call back...maybe it was the wrong number,maybe,because of all the bullshit that happened to me up there,she doesn't want to talk to me.what happened,spread all over the 7 step society...they all think i'm a bad person etc etc......it really bums me out.damon i'm sorry for jumping your shit.i just got angry when i saw your name.....if you had ever gotten to really know me,you would've seen i was just a really nice guy.....i used to be anyways...lately i've been really angry toward a lot of ppl....after finding out all the stuff i did,at first there was a calm,then the more i thought of it,the angrier i got.....everything i had come to accept as truth about what happened,well,a lot of it was bullshit!all over again i have to deal with this shit....i fucking hate it!especially my family.....they held what happened up there against me ....they still do.....again i'm sorry about jumping your shit....please forgive me
....hippie
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hippie, i think you should just do some forgiving. I think you and paul were lucky to have hashed that out. it says something about each of your characters'. but if you want to engage in countless numbers of battles, you will lose by your own venom. fuck man, half the time nobody is who they say they are on this site so you could just be getting your buttons pushed. pick and choose your battles. you should also tell some jokes on this site or tell us about your day or something so you dont always sound like A REALLY FUCKING PISSED OFF HIPPIE. tell us about your band, your car, or about your child; something we have really heard nothing about.
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Matt -
you unload on me like that and, only in the end, ask me to forgive? You really don't know me, do you?
But, it's twenty-something years later and I'm learning to practice restraint. So, rather than lash out in the same harsh manner as you did toward me, I'll simply let it go. You're forgiven (as if, coming from me, that meant something).
Oh, and just in case you thought I thought differently... I *know* I was a prick. Why do you think I always on the schedule to run Friday nite review? And, yes, I mostly am still (a prick, that is) - but in spite of that there are some out there who love me. Funny how that works.
Be well, Matt. I hope you find peace.
Damon
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Shut the hell up, ya prick! :lol:
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"From all I've read today it seems like, for many folks out there, Straight was the most significant thing that has ever happened to them and they have chosen to define themselves by it. Not so much on this message chain, but there are some people out there that need to move on."
Damon, that rankles for a couple of reasons. First the insider use of the word "chose". Have you noticed over the past 20 odd years that nobody other than Straightlings goes out of their way to throw that word in there in this kind of context?
Blaming the victim?
Second, you want forgiveness? Try a sincere apology instead of insinuated smear. You'd be surprised.
A fundamentalist Christian President who claims God told him to invade Iraq ? an act that killed more than 150,000 civilians, mostly women and children ? is not that much different from a fundamentalist Islamic fanatic who claims it is the will of Allah that he send young men to America to crash airliners into office buildings and kill 3,000 plus.
DOUG THOMPSON
_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
return undef() if /coercion/i;[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-30 21:24 ]
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Eudora -
I didn't write that which you are giving me credit as the author. If you go back and read the thread, the Anonymous author claims to know me and my mother's artwork that was on the walls. I agree with your statement, FWIW.
I didn't ask for forgiveness. Matt did. And, if by suggesting that the way I remember ancient history is somehow a smear, well, for that I have no rebuttal. I had nothing to do with (nor was I aware of why) Matt being fired. That much I DO remember.
D.
On 2006-03-30 21:23:00, Eudora wrote:
"
"From all I've read today it seems like, for many folks out there, Straight was the most significant thing that has ever happened to them and they have chosen to define themselves by it. Not so much on this message chain, but there are some people out there that need to move on."
Damon, that rankles for a couple of reasons. First the insider use of the word "chose". Have you noticed over the past 20 odd years that nobody other than Straightlings goes out of their way to throw that word in there in this kind of context?
Blaming the victim?
Second, you want forgiveness? Try a sincere apology instead of insinuated smear. You'd be surprised.
A fundamentalist Christian President who claims God told him to invade Iraq ? an act that killed more than 150,000 civilians, mostly women and children ? is not that much different from a fundamentalist Islamic fanatic who claims it is the will of Allah that he send young men to America to crash airliners into office buildings and kill 3,000 plus.
DOUG THOMPSON
_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
return undef() if /coercion/i;[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-30 21:24 ]"
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Couldn't help but notice all of this really interesting levels of rising BS in here... The anger after 20 years is also just a little bit frightening, but of course hippi, I did not go through what you went through and in fact I am only learning of your "trauma" thru this site.
I entered straight(Boston)in 88 at 15, and to this day I have never again (thankfully)walked into a world as insane as that one.
Straight actually was a good experience for some (not me)and clearly (not you), but obviously at one point you did consider it so. Decades have passed, we have all lost loved ones, friends, welcomed new ones into the world and hopefully all changed for the better. After all we were just kids, institutionalized in one of the most fucked up places in the country. I see the experience for what it was now and check it back into the corner of my mind where issues of victimization and symptoms of ptsd reside because i am too busy to afford the luxery of feeling sorry for myself. I don't know you but I wish the best for you. Heres to a better 20 years, Hippi. ::cheers::
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On 2006-03-31 04:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Couldn't help but notice all of this really interesting levels of rising BS in here... The anger after 20 years is also just a little bit frightening, but of course hippi, I did not go through what you went through and in fact I am only learning of your "trauma" thru this site.
I entered straight(Boston)in 88 at 15, and to this day I have never again (thankfully)walked into a world as insane as that one.
Straight actually was a good experience for some (not me)and clearly (not you), but obviously at one point you did consider it so. Decades have passed, we have all lost loved ones, friends, welcomed new ones into the world and hopefully all changed for the better. After all we were just kids, institutionalized in one of the most fucked up places in the country. I see the experience for what it was now and check it back into the corner of my mind where issues of victimization and symptoms of ptsd reside because i am too busy to afford the luxery of feeling sorry for myself. I don't know you but I wish the best for you. Heres to a better 20 years, Hippi. ::cheers:: "
Brillinat! -- honestly - perfectly put!
We were kids...kids! - what the hell did we know?
I'm actually nervous about saying this - I'm afraid of getting attacked (just like in group - again) - but at what point do we take responsibility?
I see Damon has owned up to being an asshole -- shit - I remember him as the enforcer as it were - that was his role -- anyway - he's aware of it and from the sound of it makes no excuses fot it - he owns it - it would be so easy to blame others for his being that way - but he owns it
Here's where I'm big time afraid I'll get attacked - but I must say it - I don't see Matt taking any responsibility for his actions - and I see others on this post making excuses for him.
Before you jump all over me - this is just my perception on this - I know in group the unpopular view gets creamed, but I'm hoping to be heard and not attacked -
I was there in Stoughton - and I thought Matt was such a unique and interesting staffer - it was as if the winds of change had blown in to the building -- after all is said and done - Matt was in the wrong place at the wrong time -
Weren't we all?
I guess that depends on your character and the way you perceive life
For me - my life is better today - I still have my PTSD -- I know what my part was in the bad ballet that was Straight - both the good I did and the bad i did - those i helped and those I hurt - as well as those who helped and hurt me -
I take ownership and responsibility for all of it -
Matt - I'm scared to say this, but it just sounds like you're still so very bitter after all these years - and I'm sorry for that -
I was so psyched when you showed up -- I was amazed that we could sing American Pie and say Whisky & Rye instead of water and ice - I thought things were going to change for the better
I don't want you to read this and say see - I was screwed over - see the kids loved me -
I don't care about the back room politics - I don't care about the personality conflicts
You did what you did the same way that Damon did what he did and the same way i did what I did -- but you're the only one not owning it fully - and maybe once you just own it you can forgive yourself and what was done to you wont matter anymore -
I hope I don't attacked for this - but I guess I will - that's how it was in Straight and that's how it is on this board -- it's like Bizarro Straight...
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and maybe once you just own it you can forgive yourself and what was done to you wont matter anymore -
How would someone forgive themselves for what was done to them?
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On 2006-03-31 06:33:00, Guest wrote:
" and maybe once you just own it you can forgive yourself and what was done to you wont matter anymore -
How would someone forgive themselves for what was done to them?"
It's that ole take responsibility thing --
I think -- and again -- just me -- but I think Matt regrets a lot of the stuff he did as we all do and it's easier to look at the past from the perception of the victim, but if you look back as an active participant (as we all were) then it's a whole different game -
Example - and I'm using Damon only because we're talking about him, but this could be anyone...but what if Damon looked back and was like:
"Group and the job made me into that asshole - I was that way because that's what was expected of me and needed of me - It's not my fault - and the things I did were because of you and because of group"
What if those that ran Straight were like:
"This is all your fault and your parents fault for putting you in Straight. You're fault for doing drugs and your parents fault for seeking the help of total strangers...what kind of person lets their child be run by other kids, and shut off from the family...We did nothing wrong - we just provided a venue for YOU and those around you to do this to yourself"
Anyway -- Damon has taken responsibility for his actions - it's easier for him now to forgive himself and hence to forgive others -
I haven't read Damon blasting Matt or anyone else for things done to him - he never blamed us for him being the way he was in Straight - he owns it
There's a HUGE difference between a victim and an active participant -- NONE OF US HERE are victims we are all -- ALL OF US -- active partcipants in this.
We're not talking about about a newcomer that was molested by a host dad -- in this instance we're talking about a man who was in a bad living and bad working situation -- with choices and actions to make -
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On 2006-03-31 03:23:00, Nomad wrote:
"Eudora -
I didn't write that which you are giving me credit as the author. If you go back and read the thread, the Anonymous author claims to know me and my mother's artwork that was on the walls. I agree with your statement, FWIW.
Sorry, Damon. I suppose I should have taken a little more time to notice that. Just out of curiosity, how do you know who that particular anon is? What is this new loyalty? It is, above all, conformity. It is the uncritical and unquestioning acceptance of America as it is. It rejects inquiry into the race question or socialized medicine or public housing, regards as heinous any challenge to what is called the system of private enterprise, identifying that system with Americanism. It abandons evolution, repudiates the once popular concept of progress, and regards America as a finished product, perfect and complete. The concept of loyalty as conformity is a false one. It is narrow and restrictive, denies freedom of thought and conscience... What do men know of loyalty who make a mockery of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights?
Henry Steele Commager, 1947
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NONE OF US HERE are victims
Really?
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Eudora -
No apology necessary, but thank you nonetheless. I haven't a clue as to who that particular Anon is, simply that they identified themselves as someone who knows me, one of my friends, and my mother's artwork. Only someone who was in Stoughton at the time I was would know that her paintings were on the walls.
D
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On 2006-03-31 07:14:00, Guest wrote:
"NONE OF US HERE are victims
Really?"
ONLY in the context of what we're talking about -- this thing with Damon and Matt -
I know that there are victims out there - and on this board - but of us "here" - and by here I mean in this chat -- in this conversation and this space - none of us (me, Matt, Damon, Paul) are purely victims - we're all active partcipants -
I don't know you -- but would have to assume that you are an active participant in your life - and not a victim - that's always my first assumption about people - that they are active participants in their choices and actions -
For me - I was 16 and put in Straight - but i don't consider myself a victim of that - the things that happened to me are not my "fault" -- but my response to them is --
In this chat - it's not Matt's fault that people conspired against him, not at all - but the choices he made are all his choices and his responsibility -
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what happened to me was out of my control man....what happened after that,under the circumstances,was out of my control.....my "owning up" was going up there....i should've followed my gut feelings about it.....but i stupidily followed my dick....
i didn't go up there for the reasons you think...
i've never told anyone that....except one person,and i just told them today.....go ahead and bash me....it doesn't matter to me anymore.i know in my heart,what happened to me up there was wrong and there were many ppl involved....you guys say damon wasn't a part of it?..ok,but it sure was funny how he was "assigned" to watch me!
treat me like vermine and i've never forgot it.i have a great memory.....i remember details most ppl just don't remember about themselves.why am i mad? good lord dude,i just found out the truth what? 3 months ago?.....lol...who wouldn't be angry?....when i first came online,i thought i had dealt with all the past as good as i could....i wasn't the angry mess i have been lately......my first postings were informative not angry."owning up" to what?....i was never a "yeller" at straight....no,i always wanted to know why a person did whatever they did wrong....i wanted to help them sort it out.i got sat down a lot because i was percieved as weak to the "staff" in st.pete.......it wasn't till my last months in that place that i requested "pre-training" to be a staffer,and then it was my newcomers that convinced me to apply....i never applied while i was on my phases and not until i was 3 1/2 years done,did i apply to be a staffer!
i didn't do it because of reasons any of you think.funny,i get bashed for 5 weeks of staff...2 paychecks......and ppl like damon get no shit at all.neither does paul or anyone else i've seen on here that was on staff! i really believed i could help....make a difference etc....i never knew i was a joke and they were planning my departure BEFORE i ever came up!if it sounds like i'm angry,i am.thats cause i'm dealing with shit i never knew i had to deal with.........talking about my band and everything else right now is very trivial to me....as you staffers always said"don't avoid yourselves".....that,right now,is good advise....it wasn't way back when,but it sure is now,pertaining to all the shit you guys up in boston created for me!....i'm gone
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On 2006-03-31 17:05:00, stillahippie564 wrote:
"what happened to me was out of my control man....what happened after that,under the circumstances,was out of my control.....my "owning up" was going up there....i should've followed my gut feelings about it.....but i stupidily followed my dick....
i didn't go up there for the reasons you think...
i've never told anyone that....except one person,and i just told them today.....go ahead and bash me....it doesn't matter to me anymore.i know in my heart,what happened to me up there was wrong and there were many ppl involved....you guys say damon wasn't a part of it?..ok,but it sure was funny how he was "assigned" to watch me!
treat me like vermine and i've never forgot it.i have a great memory.....i remember details most ppl just don't remember about themselves.why am i mad? good lord dude,i just found out the truth what? 3 months ago?.....lol...who wouldn't be angry?....when i first came online,i thought i had dealt with all the past as good as i could....i wasn't the angry mess i have been lately......my first postings were informative not angry."owning up" to what?....i was never a "yeller" at straight....no,i always wanted to know why a person did whatever they did wrong....i wanted to help them sort it out.i got sat down a lot because i was percieved as weak to the "staff" in st.pete.......it wasn't till my last months in that place that i requested "pre-training" to be a staffer,and then it was my newcomers that convinced me to apply....i never applied while i was on my phases and not until i was 3 1/2 years done,did i apply to be a staffer!
i didn't do it because of reasons any of you think.funny,i get bashed for 5 weeks of staff...2 paychecks......and ppl like damon get no shit at all.neither does paul or anyone else i've seen on here that was on staff! i really believed i could help....make a difference etc....i never knew i was a joke and they were planning my departure BEFORE i ever came up!if it sounds like i'm angry,i am.thats cause i'm dealing with shit i never knew i had to deal with.........talking about my band and everything else right now is very trivial to me....as you staffers always said"don't avoid yourselves".....that,right now,is good advise....it wasn't way back when,but it sure is now,pertaining to all the shit you guys up in boston created for me!....i'm gone"
"what happened to me was out of my control man...."
Agreed
what happened after that,under the circumstances, was out of my control....."
That's kind of a loaded statement and shirks some things -- I agree that pretty much everything is out of our control, but to qualify it with "under the circumstances" excuses or dismisses your role - and your participation
People were watching you -- not in your control, but how you performed was in your control
Using Damon as an example again (I'm not picking on him, it's just a good fit for this) - Damon never qualifies his role in Straight as under the circumstances - he takes full ownership of his part - he could totally pass it off onto someone or something else, but he doesn't - he owns it
Another illustration of what I'm trying to say - if I'm driving home and some ass-clown cuts me off and i almost crash into him -- that's not my fault - let's say he then flips me the bird - that's not my fault - and then lets say I get out of the car, pull him out the window and beat him to death - well - that's my fault - I can't say under the circumstances what else was i supposed to do...
Anyway - it's actually really none of my business - LOL! - so I appreciate you hearing me out and letting me put my 2 cents in
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People were watching you -- not in your control, but how you performed was in your control
ok.....how i performed was in my control.i didn't know why i was being scrutinised etc....i didn't do anything wrong....i definatly didn't deserve that shit dude.in the end it created a undeserving paranoia too...just like in group!
what i meant about under the circumstances,was after i was axed......if you knew what i know now,you'd understand.....but what ever....i've never purposly hurt anyone in my whole life...its just not my nature.....think what you want....anymore i really don't care....dean and sylvia were like hitler and eva brown....the rest were deans "henchmen"....damon played a big part in that! he even brags about it! "i was a prick" "thats why i was picked many times to run open meeting review"=...who was he? eichman?...for a jewish dude,
thats really something to brag about,isn't it? his ego is still very huge....lol.....i now see why i wasn't allowed to do many "raps"....never asked to work open meeting review or open meetings!......i see it now! i didn't buy into the harsh bullshit,didn't sit idlly by and participate in the confrontations,i questioned authority and they just couldn't have that around!
that simply didn't sit well with dean and sylvia and thier "henchmen".....ok....you got me there...
sorry that i called damon or any of your buddies on
the bullshit they pulled on my life or anyone elses lives.at least i don't have to live with what i did to so many ppl.ask any of my old newcomers,ppl that were on thier phases with me or ppl that i hung out with as a 7 stepper,and you'll hear nary a bad story of abuse and "campain smearing"....you're absolutly right.
i am responsible for my actions....i never participated in any of the kind bullshit they did.
i'm very PROUD of that!...thanks for pointing that out to me.....hippie{oh,by the way,i earned my nickname.where i live everyone has one.i live way out in the country.....the ppl here gave me my nickname because of the KIND OF PERSON I AM!!!!} ::rainbow:: ::cheers:: ::troll::
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On 2006-03-31 19:18:00, stillahippie564 wrote:
"People were watching you -- not in your control, but how you performed was in your control
ok.....how i performed was in my control.i didn't know why i was being scrutinised etc....i didn't do anything wrong....i definatly didn't deserve that shit dude.in the end it created a undeserving paranoia too...just like in group!
what i meant about under the circumstances,was after i was axed......if you knew what i know now,you'd understand.....but what ever....i've never purposly hurt anyone in my whole life...its just not my nature.....think what you want....anymore i really don't care....dean and sylvia were like hitler and eva brown....the rest were deans "henchmen"....damon played a big part in that! he even brags about it! "i was a prick" "thats why i was picked many times to run open meeting review"=...who was he? eichman?...for a jewish dude,
thats really something to brag about,isn't it? his ego is still very huge....lol.....i now see why i wasn't allowed to do many "raps"....never asked to work open meeting review or open meetings!......i see it now! i didn't buy into the harsh bullshit,didn't sit idlly by and participate in the confrontations,i questioned authority and they just couldn't have that around!
that simply didn't sit well with dean and sylvia and thier "henchmen".....ok....you got me there...
sorry that i called damon or any of your buddies on
the bullshit they pulled on my life or anyone elses lives.at least i don't have to live with what i did to so many ppl.ask any of my old newcomers,ppl that were on thier phases with me or ppl that i hung out with as a 7 stepper,and you'll hear nary a bad story of abuse and "campain smearing"....you're absolutly right.
i am responsible for my actions....i never participated in any of the kind bullshit they did.
i'm very PROUD of that!...thanks for pointing that out to me.....hippie{oh,by the way,i earned my nickname.where i live everyone has one.i live way out in the country.....the ppl here gave me my nickname because of the KIND OF PERSON I AM!!!!} ::rainbow:: ::cheers:: ::troll:: "
I gotta say Damon was no Eichman - LOL! - truth be told - Damon's really a great guy - one of the best people I've ever met -- but that's a funny Nazi heirarchy there - I don't think Dean, Sylvia and the crew are really on par with Adolf and the boyz - maybe Groucho, Harpo & Zeppo -- or Moe, Larry and Joe (not Curly or Shemp...those 2 are untouchable, but that's for another time)
Anyway -- you mentioned:
"i never participated in any of the kind bullshit they did. i'm very PROUD of that!"
THAT'S exactly what I'm talking about - Yahtzee!- that's the ownership -- you chose a course of action and reaction -- just make sure too that that perception and honesty applies to the stuff you're not proud of...that's the hard stuff...and one of the reasons i respect Damon so much -- he's not bragging when he owns up to being a prick - he's just owning it - at least that's how i read his post - and know his character to be.
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Dean was a fucking prick...no two ways about that.
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whatever you want to say....spin it anyway you want.i don't have much in the way of shame for my participation in straight.damon hasn't "owned up " to shit.there were no apoligies coming from him.....he just simply admits/brags about his involvement in straight...shit he even said he's still a prick.hardly humble about his actions in there dude...quit drinking the kool aid man....they were hardly like the 3 stooges or the marx brothers....adolf and co. fits exactly into thier actions...anyone who didn't fit into thier little club was nixed out!dean had a club like that in virginia too.....thats his M.O. ....john p. greg m. and i didn't fit that criteria,so we were nixed out. then some of the ppl who helped them were nixed out too,after they helped fuck us over.....a staffer named jean,jeene..? just to name one....i ran into her after my departure.i was in harvard square.....she's the one who told me why i was fired! you see,i was NEVER officially told why!....i had to find out a year later. then 3 months ago,i found out the real reason....paul told me!so fuck your "yatzee game" dude....your phases are over....lets all get real here......so far,the only one of you stoughton staffers i respect is paul....at least he had the balls to admit what happened to me and the others was a witch hunt and wrong! you're just justifying what damon did and wanting me to shut up.....i won't go away silently in the night.after paul told me to cool out on damon,he {damon}had to be a prick to me after i asked him to forgive me for jumping his shit....i had honest reasons to jump his shit,but thought i'd take the high road and apoligise....what do you guys do?"huddle up" when someone is calling you on bullshit you did in there and attack them with verbal insults and "intellect"? in anonymous paper bag form? he was one of dean's pet "henchmen".....anyone who's not drinking the kool aid would know this.you know,you all are still fooled by the program....i know,to some point,i was when i went up there.....after the witch hunt and the other stuff,i wasn't.....but by then it was way too late.....
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Matt -
Let?s see if I have this right. You show up in this thread and lay out this diatribe about me being involved in your getting fired which was untrue. You accuse me of being one of Dean's henchmen - also untrue. I despised Dean throughout my phases, my tenure on staff, and long after for the way he treated people, including me. You mistake my having come to terms with my involvement in that cult and my role as staff with some sort of bragging - incorrectly. You claim that I was assigned to "watch" you - a lie. You ask me for forgiveness and, while I don't think that it means a great deal coming from me, I forgive you.
And now, finally, you call me a Nazi?
I'll not continue down this path with you. I'm past it.
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On 2006-03-31 17:56:00, Binky wrote:
People were watching you -- not in your control, but how you performed was in your control
Yeah, sure. In an alternate reality where the people watching are sane, objective and non sadistic. But we're talking about Straight, Inc here...And suffering is not a badge of honor. Experiencing tyranny does not deserve a bow or a kiss. The honor is in removing the stumbling stone. The honor is in the impolite destruction of tyranny through honest, powerful dialogue - not etiquette. Not political correctness.
Maximus
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On 2006-03-31 22:04:00, stillahippie564 wrote:
"whatever you want to say....spin it anyway you want.i don't have much in the way of shame for my participation in straight.damon hasn't "owned up " to shit.there were no apoligies coming from him.....he just simply admits/brags about his involvement in straight...shit he even said he's still a prick.hardly humble about his actions in there dude...quit drinking the kool aid man....they were hardly like the 3 stooges or the marx brothers....adolf and co. fits exactly into thier actions...anyone who didn't fit into thier little club was nixed out!dean had a club like that in virginia too.....thats his M.O. ....john p. greg m. and i didn't fit that criteria,so we were nixed out. then some of the ppl who helped them were nixed out too,after they helped fuck us over.....a staffer named jean,jeene..? just to name one....i ran into her after my departure.i was in harvard square.....she's the one who told me why i was fired! you see,i was NEVER officially told why!....i had to find out a year later. then 3 months ago,i found out the real reason....paul told me!so fuck your "yatzee game" dude....your phases are over....lets all get real here......so far,the only one of you stoughton staffers i respect is paul....at least he had the balls to admit what happened to me and the others was a witch hunt and wrong! you're just justifying what damon did and wanting me to shut up.....i won't go away silently in the night.after paul told me to cool out on damon,he {damon}had to be a prick to me after i asked him to forgive me for jumping his shit....i had honest reasons to jump his shit,but thought i'd take the high road and apoligise....what do you guys do?"huddle up" when someone is calling you on bullshit you did in there and attack them with verbal insults and "intellect"? in anonymous paper bag form? he was one of dean's pet "henchmen".....anyone who's not drinking the kool aid would know this.you know,you all are still fooled by the program....i know,to some point,i was when i went up there.....after the witch hunt and the other stuff,i wasn't.....but by then it was way too late....."
You say:
"quit drinking the kool aid man..."
and
"lets all get real here"
I now realize you're incapable of getting real - you have moments of clarity and then go right back to the Jonestown mentality of they were all out to get me...they still are as soon as someone points out any of your resposibility -
You keep bringing up that people are trying to silence you -- which is so odd cuz no one is trying to silence you - you're creating these persecutory/Mesianic notions and making this board your very own Jonestown, Guyana - and you're the one prepparing, offering and drinking the Kool-Aid.
While i'm always open to debate and discussion I just don't see the point anymore -- I'm leaving Guyana before I wind up like Congressman Ryan.
:wave:
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hey damon check your messages
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On 2006-04-01 05:16:00, Eudora wrote:
On 2006-03-31 17:56:00, Binky wrote:
People were watching you -- not in your control, but how you performed was in your control
Yeah, sure. In an alternate reality where the people watching are sane, objective and non sadistic. But we're talking about Straight, Inc here...
EXACTLY. What is all of this shit you keep slinging at hippie about "taking responsibility"? You've attempted to explain this pretzel logic a few times now but it still doesn't seem to wash...
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hmmmm, How many of you guys are from the Boston program? I was there from '88-90 and since we're all on the "taking responsibility for our actions" theme, I will stand, throw down my own glass of kool-aid and clear my throat. I take responsibility for getting so fucked up at such a young age that the state in which I was living took control and custody of me, bought into Ronald Regans's shit and threw me into a progressive "hell hole" rehab where i would rot for two years without any hope of an education. I also take responsibility for my natural curiosity of all the "other" drugs i found out about while in straight that I didn't do, but did do once I got out. I t.r. for flirting with the boys side and getting into two relationships (prompted in straight) that really sucked after straight. ( not the smartest thing, meeting in a rehad.) I t.r. for getting in fights and constantly being restrained, because i liked someone just holding onto me for a second before I lost my mind. But here's the best part, I take responsibility for the past, present and future and I can honestly say at this point it has been quite a ride. I'm too tired to feel sorry for myself because I'm in my 30's, working my ass off and still attempting to understand the big picture. Life is truely what you make of it, i didn't get that in my youth. We were kids and we all made mistakes. i made some great friends in that program, but I made some enemies as well. I no longer care about the "haters", the lies or the bs that stems from people having nothing better to do than talk about someone else. Its over now, so put your gun down and get out of the bell tower before someone gets hurts. Geez....... :silly:
Leslie Albano
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Leslie, you didn't deserve that.
The present system is among the most impractical imaginable, if the facilitation of learning is your aim.
--Neil Postman and Charles Weingartner
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previous ramblings due to too much wine last night.
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On 2006-04-01 07:11:00, Frank Discussion wrote:
"On 2006-04-01 05:16:00, Eudora wrote:
On 2006-03-31 17:56:00, Binky wrote:
People were watching you -- not in your control, but how you performed was in your control
Yeah, sure. In an alternate reality where the people watching are sane, objective and non sadistic. But we're talking about Straight, Inc here...
EXACTLY. What is all of this shit you keep slinging at hippie about "taking responsibility"? You've attempted to explain this pretzel logic a few times now but it still doesn't seem to wash..."
It's funny -- why is Hippie treated and protected like George W. Bush here?
Neither can admit mistakes they made and the people pointing out where they have made mistakes are attacked and painted as "Nazi's" or painted as un-Patriotic.
"What is all of this shit you keep slinging at hippie about "taking responsibility"? - that's the same W. Bush argument --
Matt keeps pointing to Damon here like Damon is Saddam Hussein and caused 9/11 -- you wanna talk Pretzel Logic? -- why is no one calling Matt out on that?
Where is Frank Discussion saying - good point - Matt's actually mistaken here
I'm sorry, but this is just crazy -- I wanted my previous post to be my final word on the subject, but I'm outraged at the hypocracy and biased view here -
This topic/string is like Fox News where the Prez can do no wrong - and Matt can do no wrong -
How is Matt supposed to heal and get better if no one holds him responsible for anything
I'm actually suprised that i haven't yet been labeled as staff or "one of Dean's Butt Boys" yet - that's Administrations way and that seems to be the way it's going here -
Before y'all get all defensive and pissed please take a look at what I'm saying - please listen to the merit of my points.
What's right is right and this is my last comment/post on this topic.
Again - I like Matt - I think back on him fondly and will always remember him in and as the same spirit of Bob Dylan -- something amazingly unique and the usher of change -- but truth is truth and right is right no matter who you are -
George W. can make mistakes and so can Matt -
As always - thanks for listening and thanks for letting me share my 2 cents - please consider the validity and merit of what I'm saying and forgive me as I will no longer entertain this topic - or anything more regarding Matt's past.
I really appreciate this forum and wish us all here the absolute very best life has to offer.
Talk to you soon -
~ binky
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You're still not makin' that much sense to me, pal. Sorry.
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Bink, I missed the part in this thread where anybody accused Matt of anything. What is it, exactly, that you want him to own up to? Did he wrong you somehow?
On 2006-04-02 08:01:00, Binky wrote:
How is Matt supposed to heal and get better if no one holds him responsible for anything
Oh, I see the dissconnect now. Sorry, I guess maybe I should add an item to the terms of use about how this isn't group and you/we actually are not now and never were anybody's therapist. Unless, of course, you've gone on to get an education, certification, license and all that. If that were the case, why then you'd know from your training how incredibly inappropriate it would be to try and conduct therapy in such a setting as this and w/o having established consent to treat.
The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton
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On 2006-04-02 08:28:00, Frank Discussion wrote:
"You're still not makin' that much sense to me, pal. Sorry. "
Then you and I can go no further with this discussion -[ This Message was edited by: Binky on 2006-04-02 11:48 ]
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On 2006-04-02 09:09:00, Eudora wrote:
"Bink, I missed the part in this thread where anybody accused Matt of anything. What is it, exactly, that you want him to own up to? Did he wrong you somehow?
On 2006-04-02 08:01:00, Binky wrote:
How is Matt supposed to heal and get better if no one holds him responsible for anything
Oh, I see the dissconnect now. Sorry, I guess maybe I should add an item to the terms of use about how this isn't group and you/we actually are not now and never were anybody's therapist. Unless, of course, you've gone on to get an education, certification, license and all that. If that were the case, why then you'd know from your training how incredibly inappropriate it would be to try and conduct therapy in such a setting as this and w/o having established consent to treat.
The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton
"
Let me withdraw the How is Matt supposed to heal and get better if no one holds him responsible for anything remark -
You're right - that's none of my business and none of my concern - and this isn't the right forum for that at all.
I made a mistake and I acknowledge it - it's not that difficult to do
Nonetheless - the point still remains - that Matt is able to get away without taking any responsibility for anything he does - and yet I am called out for mentioning Matt's healing progress - and I take responsibility and answer for it - but - as usual - no one says "Gee Matt - calling Damon 'Eichman' might have been a little rough...might have been a little out of bounds"
Fact is Damon had absolutely nothing to do with Matt getting fired - so now Damon is held to a high standard of scrutiny because Matt falsley accuses him of something he had no hand in -
Where is Matt's appology to Damon?
Where is Matt owning up and saying I made a mistake and I'm sorry
Where is your (Eudora) comment to Matt calling him out for calling Damon a Nazi and making false accusations?
I just find it unfair and baffling...
:???:
~ binky
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On 2006-04-02 11:21:00, Binky wrote:
Where is your (Eudora) comment to Matt calling him out for calling Damon a Nazi and making false accusations?
Well, if you want to know, I rather agree. Not that I knew these people personally back then. But it's consistent w/ what I've seen flying back and forth around here and perfectly consistent with the training I know they received and with the word of damned near everybody who ever knew you Nazis back in VA and who has made any comment at all about it.
And I don't know that the accusation is false. Do you? Here's a clue. Ever send up a COC or report somebody for some dumb shit and then just sort of.... forget? Then when that person gets poked and prodded till they lose their temper and slammed hard for it, you just still go on forgetting that maybe you had something to do with setting that whole chain of events in motion?
Think about it. I don't know or care, Damon, about your personal feelings toward Dean. I do take it as probably true when ppl say Damon was the consumate super straightling under Deans regime.
What, you remember that differently too?
I just find it unfair and baffling...
Yeah, I guess you liked it a whole lot better back in the old days when staff was not questioned and you could just trash somebody's life and pretend you were all the ill-used, underapreciated victims of it all. Sucks, huh?
But this is what this whole conversation is about, at least from my point of view; understanding how the program "works". How they continue on committing felony child abuse throuhgout the land, often enough on public funding, and no one dares question them. A big part of it is that we ALL, except for a very rare few, played a part in the abuse, knowingly or not. Some seemed to really get off on it, others of us were just humoring you sadistic lunatics till we could get the fuck away from you.
Now, you're still just as welcome as anybody to come around here, read, post, argue or not. Do what you want. But I don't have to pretend that, for example, it's out of line to call Super Straightling staffers Nazis anymore. Frankly, it's right on the mark. Don't like it? Too fuckin' bad.
If only there were evil people somewhere, insidiously committing evil
deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
Alexandr Solzhenitsyn
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Well that's funny because the same thing happened to me and to a whole lot of other people I know. You want to talk about a trashed life? Ok, I'll give you some.
By the time I got out of the Twilight Zone and went back home, every single soul I had ever known had somehow become convinced that I had been carrying on a secret dual existance as a hard drug addicted prostitute. I mean neighbors, old teachers, my dear old Cousin K. Everybody.
I had only one friend in the world who would rent me a room in her house. She had put her older son in the Seed because my mom insisted. And she put my friend, Steve, in Straight for the same reason. She finally pulled him after an open meeting where Nancy Gettinger implored the parents to start bringing in some rich kids. I'd love to know what more was behind that, but she always got very agitated and upset whenever I tried to ask.
That happened while I was somewhere between juvenile detention in Georgia awaiting extradition to Florida for the "crime" of being a runnaway. This after one failed abduction attempt each by each of my parents. My parents were completely turned against me.
But what else would anyone expect? What the hell did we all do to each other day in and day out? Same damned thing, really. Kid sits down and says "Addict? Me? No." and from there the borw beating never stops. Your life is scorched slowly while you miss everything that happens in the world, including family funerals and presidential assasination attempts. Only news we got to watch was a plane crash into the Potomic and The Deer Hunter, of all things.
I spent probably 3 or 4 of my last years before internment actively avoiding anyone affiliated w/ the Seed as much as possible. I was scared of them. They might think I had a bad attitude or was dressed to gamey or my eyes looked read and try to "help" me. I'd seen it happen so many times before. One brother was essentially excommunicated for not completing the Seed. It wrecked him. Of course it did! What do you expect when you dump a kid out into the world alone after cloistering them for so long and having severed all of their supports AND given them the "rehab" stigma?
Like I said waaaaay back at the beginning of this conversation. I don't believe hip because I like him. It's the other way around. What he describes has been SOP in this cult since the `70's. The alternate explanation is that, somehow, Dean kept you on staff even though you hated his guts and everything he did as a staffer and flat out refused to do things his way. How much sense does that make?
[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-04-02 18:49 ]
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Love ya. :lol:
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Oh fuck! I hit edit instead of reply.
Bink said something to the effect of... well I'd better not. Anyway, this was my reply.
Well that's funny because the same thing happened to me and to a whole lot of other people I know. You want to talk about a trashed life? Ok, I'll give you some.
By the time I got out of the Twilight Zone and went back home, every single soul I had ever known had somehow become convinced that I had been carrying on a secret dual existance as a hard drug addicted prostitute. I mean neighbors, old teachers, my dear old Cousin K. Everybody.
I had only one friend in the world who would rent me a room in her house. She had put her older son in the Seed because my mom insisted. And she put my friend, Steve, in Straight for the same reason. She finally pulled him after an open meeting where Nancy Gettinger implored the parents to start bringing in some rich kids. I'd love to know what more was behind that, but she always got very agitated and upset whenever I tried to ask.
That happened while I was somewhere between juvenile detention in Georgia awaiting extradition to Florida for the "crime" of being a runnaway. This after one failed abduction attempt each by each of my parents. My parents were completely turned against me.
But what else would anyone expect? What the hell did we all do to each other day in and day out? Same damned thing, really. Kid sits down and says "Addict? Me? No." and from there the borw beating never stops. Your life is scorched slowly while you miss everything that happens in the world, including family funerals and presidential assasination attempts. Only news we got to watch was a plane crash into the Potomic and The Deer Hunter, of all things.
I spent probably 3 or 4 of my last years before internment actively avoiding anyone affiliated w/ the Seed as much as possible. I was scared of them. They might think I had a bad attitude or was dressed to gamey or my eyes looked read and try to "help" me. I'd seen it happen so many times before. One brother was essentially excommunicated for not completing the Seed. It wrecked him. Of course it did! What do you expect when you dump a kid out into the world alone after cloistering them for so long and having severed all of their supports AND given them the "rehab" stigma?
Like I said waaaaay back at the beginning of this conversation. I don't believe hip because I like him. It's the other way around. What he describes has been SOP in this cult since the `70's. The alternate explanation is that, somehow, Dean kept you on staff even though you hated his guts and everything he did as a staffer and flat out refused to do things his way. How much sense does that make?
[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-04-02 18:49 ]
_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
return undef() if /coercion/i;[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-04-02 18:52 ]
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what?now i'm george bush?...lol....look at yourself dude! i was fired because,as you so eloquintly stated"a breath of freash air"....sylvia and dean didn't want that....lol...george bush?good lord dude,next thing you'll be saying is that i was responsible for the rising cost of gas too!funny how damon was such an asshole to me,watched whatever i did,
and claims to know nothing was up....thats a scary thought actually....because then he has NO reason at all for his actions except that he really was a nazi prick in straight!you know,i really wish there were some stoughton straight PHASERS out there that remember damon....not the "straight is great" or "straight helped me" croud that seem to be trying to flog me....dude,if i was a "breath of fresh air" then how or why would you hook up with someone who was a repressive jerk to ppl? damon may have made changes....but he has a lot of fessing up to do around here.....the walls were paper thin in straight!top secret shit didn't last long in there.....everyone knew something was up except me! i know that because i got blackballed by the seven step society too....when you were on your phases,didn't you wonder why i never came in to see how you all were doing? i didn't come in because i wasn't allowed to....i was threatened with arrest if i stepped foot on thier precious property! i didn't do anything wrong!tell me,how many ppl did you see get started over for trivial stuff and thought to yourself"my god this is bullshit"....?were you ever set back and thought the crime didn't fit the punishment?....well,in this case,the program that drilled it in my head for 28 1/2 months, that my "sobriety" depended on my "support group",
took my "support group" my friends,my jobs,my girlfriends,my freedoms,my family away from me!
they told my stupid mom that i was doing drugs...
{instant blackball from the family}....followed me around and scared my job{s},my friends and my girlfriends away.....{finacial and emotional losses}then told everyone that i was doing drugs
and i lost my "support groups"!.....nooooo,dean and sylvia weren't just happy with firing me,they had to ruin every aspect of my life.....and they had my roommates helping them....! shit,everyone else but me,knew i was fired for "suspicion of drug use" except me! i didn't know that till a year later....thanks to an ex staffer that got the axe too......now,in the last 3 months,i found out a whole bunch of stuff....the truth about why i was fired....why i was arrested,and who called the cops.........you know what? believe what you want man......lol.....hip
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On 2006-04-03 02:26:00, stillahippie564 wrote:
"what?now i'm george bush?...lol....look at yourself dude! i was fired because,as you so eloquintly stated"a breath of freash air"....sylvia and dean didn't want that....lol...george bush?good lord dude,next thing you'll be saying is that i was responsible for the rising cost of gas too!funny how damon was such an asshole to me,watched whatever i did,
and claims to know nothing was up....thats a scary thought actually....because then he has NO reason at all for his actions except that he really was a nazi prick in straight!you know,i really wish there were some stoughton straight PHASERS out there that remember damon....not the "straight is great" or "straight helped me" croud that seem to be trying to flog me....dude,if i was a "breath of fresh air" then how or why would you hook up with someone who was a repressive jerk to ppl? damon may have made changes....but he has a lot of fessing up to do around here.....the walls were paper thin in straight!top secret shit didn't last long in there.....everyone knew something was up except me! i know that because i got blackballed by the seven step society too....when you were on your phases,didn't you wonder why i never came in to see how you all were doing? i didn't come in because i wasn't allowed to....i was threatened with arrest if i stepped foot on thier precious property! i didn't do anything wrong!tell me,how many ppl did you see get started over for trivial stuff and thought to yourself"my god this is bullshit"....?were you ever set back and thought the crime didn't fit the punishment?....well,in this case,the program that drilled it in my head for 28 1/2 months, that my "sobriety" depended on my "support group",
took my "support group" my friends,my jobs,my girlfriends,my freedoms,my family away from me!
they told my stupid mom that i was doing drugs...
{instant blackball from the family}....followed me around and scared my job{s},my friends and my girlfriends away.....{finacial and emotional losses}then told everyone that i was doing drugs
and i lost my "support groups"!.....nooooo,dean and sylvia weren't just happy with firing me,they had to ruin every aspect of my life.....and they had my roommates helping them....! shit,everyone else but me,knew i was fired for "suspicion of drug use" except me! i didn't know that till a year later....thanks to an ex staffer that got the axe too......now,in the last 3 months,i found out a whole bunch of stuff....the truth about why i was fired....why i was arrested,and who called the cops.........you know what? believe what you want man......lol.....hip
"
Take from this what you will...
There are three things that cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
I see nothing, but "clouds" here...and I hope some day your minds are clear and free from all this massive delusion, bitterness and anger...
Clear mind is like the full moon in the sky. Sometimes clouds come and cover it, but the moon is always behind them. Clouds go away, then the moon shines brightly.
So I have hope for all of you.
~ binky
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did you really even read what i wrote there? bink,
on my third post on this topic,after paul wrote me
to tell me that damon didn't know,i wrote an apoligy.....i asked him to forgive me.....but what i got was more of the crap this person{damon} was famous for....you know whats funny? i see that ppl like him can't "do" confrontation very good.....not enough practice at it i guess.
well,if you think about what i wrote,just think about it,you'll come to your senses....i'm not telling you to quit being his friend.i wouldn't wish that kind of rejection on anyone,although,thats exactly what i got from all of them up there.FOR NO REASON....except that is what sylvia and dean told everyone to do and everyone followed thier advise.the only reason they did it was because i wouldn't follow thier advise.i wasn't moldable.i wasn't someone who would follow thier orders with out question.i questioned thier authority and motives.i wasn't a jerk to them either.....in fact i was very polite,
but that didn't matter....try thinking for yourself binky.....
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Take from this what you will...
There are three things that cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.
I see nothing, but "clouds" here...and I hope some day your minds are clear and free from all this massive delusion, bitterness and anger...
Clear mind is like the full moon in the sky. Sometimes clouds come and cover it, but the moon is always behind them. Clouds go away, then the moon shines brightly.
So I have hope for all of you.
~ binky
Can I get an amen? :roll:
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Sorry, that was me...forgot to login.
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Bink, you're starting to sound like Donny Rumsfeld...
I think what makes stepcraft survivors different is that we have participated in the Asch Experiment writ large, and know what we (and others)are capable of in that situation.
Johnny G.
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Maybe I'm way off, but Damon was the least we had to worry about in Straight. Jodi Mossoulini? Dean Mistretta? I could go on but the many others I think have since realized what they were sucked into, so I don't want to embarrass anyone who comes to realize they were a part of something horrible.
I remember Damon as fairly rational and mild compared to other staffers, or even rabid phasers who would gladly take their pound of flesh from your ass.
The Straight mind control technique does not become ineffective the day you turn eighteen, nor does it cease to work the day you make staff. Many, many people who went on staff were still under the influence.
There were many staffers who though they were helping in the tough love way. There were some who went overboard. You are within your rights to be angry at them if you choose.
I choose to question the Architects of this program, and not the peple they experimented on. Pissed off? Call Mel Sembler. Find Dean Mistretta. Track down Miller Newton.
Damon didn't invent these techniques, and like most other staffers, and phasers (me), we were rewarded for standing people up and blasting them for things like "druggie haircuts" (I still don't know what those are, but I want one now).
Thanks for posting Damon. It can't have been easy.
Love,
Squirrel
[ This Message was edited by: Squirrel on 2006-04-06 11:57 ]
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i p.m.ed damon.....never heard back from him...you're right squirrel.....the others are way more interesting subjects to deal with.i was just blowing off steam and anger that i had built up over the years.i have deanie boys phone number....i know where miller lives.the only thing standing in my way is this,:i'll never get my chance at them in front of you guys.....confronting them is one thing....but in front of the "whole straight group"? thats satisfaction!damon was very ridiculous in his treatment of me....so was the rest of "dean's boys"....they know it too.....i never gave them any real reasons for humping me,they listened to thier superiors and promtly stuck a john holm's salami up my ass....dean and sylvia koulker didn't really DO the damage or smearing,just like hitler and eva braun,they ordered it and watched thier minions do thier bullshit on me.....what was normal bullshit in straight,in group,was done to me and unlike in group,where i could redeem myself a little and move on,i was cast out of everything entirly!i never got to stand up for myself or at least have my say,they just threw me away like a piece of toilet paper and flushed me down......for 20 years,they had this belief that what they did to me,ruining my life even more than straight had already done,was ok....good for the group etc etc.....i just called them on it.to me,many of them don't want to think that maybe,just maybe,they were really really WRONG for what they did to me!.....am i still angry? yes i am!i just found out the truth about that time period 3 months ago!i was led to believe something else.in those 20 years,i convinced myself that it was all my fault....when i found out that it was a carfully excecuted manipulation
plan,at the hands of a few ppl,i was blown away.i'm glad i know,but i have to be honest,it was easier to believe what i thought was the truth!it was easier because i had already put that time period behind me the best i could.when i first found out what really happened,i was happy
because deep down i always knew it was bullshit,but as time went by,i found myself full of rage!rage because of how my family treated me after that episode in my life.rage for the road they manipulated my life down. that binky character said i need to take responsibilty for what happened to me up there....how many times did we all witness straight manipulate our lives unwittingly? way to many times for me to think about.after brainwashing me into believing i needed a support group and good straight "friends",they smeared my name and banished me from everything....took it all away and replaced it with bullshit.instead of a temporary consequence i could eventually earn my way back into,it was a permanent thing.i was blackballed and told if i ever stepped foot on thier property again they would have me arrested!
after 6 years of involvement in that place,in 5 fucking weeks,5 weeks!i was banished.....i never knew the reasons why till 3 months ago.i'm ok now.....not as angry as i was just even a month ago.i took an absense of leave from the fornits and other sites so i could get a grip on myself.i was jumping ppl's shit that didn't deserve it.TO THOSE I DID THAT TO,I"M VERY SORRY! i hope you can
see your way to forgive me....well,i have to go..sorry this post was long......hippie
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M- Dude. I think some of these people are completely wacked. The anons get in here and just screw more with our minds. You're in a good place right now and moving along great. Ain't heard a thing from KA, but let him know that G. and I hope things are going well. Yea, you were screwed after leaving VA and heading north, and I think a lot of us would like to 'confront' Dean M., Mel et. al. on staff when we were there. Maybe one day! When I'm done with the current gig and got time to get back there.. B.
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Know what's worse than being the third party topic of a thread that you started merely to say hello?
Nothing.
Matt, I read your PM this evening. I'd not been back to see it since you wrote it.
The trouble you had during your time on staff and your being fired was, obviously, a lot to deal with. I wouldn't wish that set of circumstances on anyone.
I'll not defend myself to you now, nor will I ever - I have no reason to. And, I'll not easily forget that you and Ginger would call me a Nazi. I don't care what context you used *particularly* since you stated, clearly, that you know I'm Jewish. There is no greater attack on one's character than that.
And even given all that, as I said before, I wish you well and hope that you're able to come to find peace. It took me a long time to come to terms with my role there, both as a phaser and staff but I have, and I'm comfortable with it. I certainly didn't do it alone - it took working it through with people who understand because they were there so if this, for you, is somehow cathartic, then I'm glad (in some strange way) that I could be a part of your healing process.
Regards,
Damon
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i'm sorry i jumped your shit damon....its really not my nature.i guess thats why i had such a long program....i just stood there and didn't come up with quick answers.i was the guy that sat down and an hour later said to myself"damn,i should've said this to that ot that to this".....i understand how my calling or comparing you to the nazi's would piss you off,but that's how things were in there and that's how i percieved my "gang bang" in there.....remember this,the jews weren't the only ones that those f-ing assholes fried. they fried a lot of my ppl too! the Orthodox middle eastern christians! you see damon,my ppl were literally the jews that believed that jesus was the long awaited messiah!so i'm,just like you,a direct desendant of the tribes of judiah!if you remember what i look like,then you'll see those features in me.the village my ppl come from still speak arameic!that,was the language of our ppl until the muselem came in and tore the holy land to pieces. i didn't say that to you so much as to piss you off,but more to make you think about how things were and how what happened to me
up there was just like germany in 1930's and early 40's.....in straight's case it was "look!"
"he's different!""lets get him out of here!".....
and without even a thought,everyone helped dean and sylvia do just that!the rest is of course now,history......it's cool.....i don't hate you,nor do i dislike you either.....i wish that things had gone different,but they didn't....hippie
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On 2006-04-06 11:55:00, Squirrel wrote:
"Maybe I'm way off, but Damon was the least we had to worry about in Straight. Jodi Mossoulini? Dean Mistretta? I could go on but the many others I think have since realized what they were sucked into, so I don't want to embarrass anyone who comes to realize they were a part of something horrible.
I remember Damon as fairly rational and mild compared to other staffers, or even rabid phasers who would gladly take their pound of flesh from your ass.
The Straight mind control technique does not become ineffective the day you turn eighteen, nor does it cease to work the day you make staff. Many, many people who went on staff were still under the influence.
There were many staffers who though they were helping in the tough love way. There were some who went overboard. You are within your rights to be angry at them if you choose.
I choose to question the Architects of this program, and not the peple they experimented on. Pissed off? Call Mel Sembler. Find Dean Mistretta. Track down Miller Newton.
Damon didn't invent these techniques, and like most other staffers, and phasers (me), we were rewarded for standing people up and blasting them for things like "druggie haircuts" (I still don't know what those are, but I want one now).
Thanks for posting Damon. It can't have been easy.
Love,
Squirrel
[ This Message was edited by: Squirrel on 2006-04-06 11:57 ]"
...I don't even know how to begin to thank you for this post --
Honestly - from the bottom of my heart - I've never heard it more perfectly put -- you're 100% right! - wow - really thank you!
AND - I love the line about the drugy haircut - LOL!
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By the way, tto whomever made the Nazi comparison thing, it shows a scary lack of knowkedge of history. Our time in Straight more resembles that of North Korean Insulates than any type of German Experiment. Many psychiatrists say Straight was conducted as an experiment mimicking the No. Ko. regime to test its effect on dissidents.
It's also impossible to relate to the Jewish cause if you're not Jewish. One could make the connections of the Aramaic language etc. but I don't think any christian can relate. If you are a christian you are the majority. Where is your Diaspora? Where is your rejection from the Western world? Where is your Holocaust? Where is your marginalization?
Leave the subject alone. It doesn't belong here.
Squirrel
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On 2006-04-06 17:47:00, Squirrel wrote:
"By the way, tto whomever made the Nazi comparison thing, it shows a scary lack of knowkedge of history. Our time in Straight more resembles that of North Korean Insulates than any type of German Experiment. Many psychiatrists say Straight was conducted as an experiment mimicking the No. Ko. regime to test its effect on dissidents.
It's also impossible to relate to the Jewish cause if you're not Jewish. One could make the connections of the Aramaic language etc. but I don't think any christian can relate. If you are a christian you are the majority. Where is your Diaspora? Where is your rejection from the Western world? Where is your Holocaust? Where is your marginalization?
Leave the subject alone. It doesn't belong here.
Squirrel"
Squirrel -- you are amazing!!!
You are my new hero!
:nworthy:
Could have used you pages ago - LOL! - got all mad - and wondered where is the voice of sanity and reason!
Again -- thank you!
~ binky[ This Message was edited by: Binky on 2006-04-06 18:00 ]
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I'm posting this whole thing because it's gone; I had to dig into the Google Cache to find it.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:cCL ... =clnk&cd=1 (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:cCLTV94xn84J:www.john-loftus.com/bush_nazi_scandal.asp+harriman+walker+bush+nazi+union+banking+scandal&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1)
Former Federal Prosecutor John Loftus confirms the Bush-Nazi scandal
Copyright October 31. 2003
Some of our most famous American families, including the Bushes, made their fortunes from the Holocaust. Before I tell this awful story, I have to admit that I am a Democrat, but I quite like this President. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he has a good heart, and the good sense not to follow in his father's footsteps. "W" has some good people around him who keep a firewall in the White House against his father's oil cronies. In terms of Republican politics, "W" is a rebel.
Morally, George W. Bush is the polar opposite of his grandfather and great grandfather (the "W" stands for Walker) who caused such havoc in the world with their Nazi investments. One cannot blame "W" for what his grandfather did, anymore than one can blame Jack Kennedy because his father bought Nazi stocks. What most people do not know is that Joseph Kennedy bought his Nazi stocks from Prescott Bush. Every great family has its scandal. The Bush family's scandal is that they funded Hitler and profited from the Holocaust.
It is quite possible that "W" (and his boyhood friend William Stamps Farrish, now US Ambassador to Britain) have tilted towards Israel perhaps because they wished to atone for the sins of their fathers. (Farrish's father committed suicide over his father's connections to the Bush-Nazi scandal.) Whatever the reason for the rebellion of the grandchildren, this Bush is quite a different man than his forbears. I like him and wish him well. But liking this Bush does not excuse my duty as a historian to tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may.
There was a great deal of skepticism ten years ago when I first wrote about the Bush-Nazi scandal in my book, "The Secret War Against the Jews." Its historical validity has now been confirmed by the ground breaking work of reporter John Buchanan. In October 2003, Buchanan unearthed the recently released Bush-Thyssen files in the US National Archives.
These long buried US government files demonstrate that the Bush family stayed on the corporate boards of Nazi front groups even after they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were helping the financial cause of the Third Reich. It was all about the money. Nazi Germany is where the Bush family fortune came from, and where the Harrimans, and the Rockefellers increased their fortunes to obscene proportions.
Of course some of them were quite rich to begin with. The Harriman railroad monopoly helped create the Rockefeller oil monopoly in the 1800's. Their despicable price fixing schemes earned them the press label "the Robber Barons." My favorite Republican Teddy Roosevelt ruined their rapacious profits with his anti-monopoly and anti-trust legislation.
The Robber Barons bribed Congress (it happens) into passing a loophole, the Web-Pomerene Act of 1918 which legalized cartels and monopolies outside the borders of the United States. This loophole law let the Robber Barons loose to prey on a helpless world already ravaged by the human and and financial cost of WWI.
Averil Harriman (patriarch of the famous Democratic family) promptly broke another American law by secretly financing the Bolsheviks while American, British and White Russian troops were still fighting against the infant communist revolution. (The FBI "ARCOS" files on Harriman's connections with the Soviets are quite a read). Harriman bribed Lenin into letting him take over the Czar's cartels, which exported managanese, iron ore and other raw materials. Harriman shipped the Russian raw materials to his German partners, the Thyssens, who had been secretly bought out by the Rockefellers.
The Rockefeller's lawyers, the Dulles Brothers, had deliberately and systematically bankrupted the German economy with the Versaille Treaty. German currency was almost worthless after WWI, and so the Dulles brother's favorite clients, the Rockefellers, were able to buy the stock of nearly every German company for a song. The great sucking sound that preceeded the Great Depression was the whistling of Wall Street money out of America into Germany, Russia (and as a side deal, Saudi Arabia). Two generations later, we are still paying for it.
The Robber Barons did not call it an international crime. They called it synergy. Harriman's Soviet cartels would deliver the raw materials, Rockfeller's high-tech German companies (the Thyssens) would process the manganese into steel for Harriman's railroads. To save transportation costs, the Robber Barons looked for a middle ground in eastern Poland for a future factory site. It had to be in the coal fields of Silesia, on the banks of the Vistula river, where a canal could be dug to ship materials in cheaply from Russia. The Polish town was named Oswieczim, later known to the world by its German name: Auschwitz.
It was not a killing factory then, although slave labor was always contemplated for the maximum profit factor. Auschwitz was designed to process Silesian coal into tar additives necessary for Russian aviation fuel. It was a high tech German chemical factory built to balance out Harriman's Russian-to-Germany export trade.
The Rockefeller-Harriman front company that financed Auschwitz was called Brown Brothers Harriman. It is still around today. Our President's great granfather, Herbert Walker, founded the company, and appointed his impecunious son-in-law Prescott Bush to the boards of several holding companies, all of which became Nazi fronts. The Walkers and Bushes never really liked the Nazis, anymore than Harriman liked the communists. To the robber barons, they were just dogs on a leash. One day the dogs broke their chains, and Hitler and Stalin got loose. Fifty million people died as a result of a bad investment.
The Robber Barons saw it coming. Their lawyers, the Dulles brothers, had a contingency plan. They had established three banks, one in Germany, one in Holland, and one in New York (the Union Banking Corporation, headed by the ever-useful son-in-law Prescott Bush). No matter who won World war II, the corporate stocks would be shifted around to whichever bank was in a neutral country when the war was over.
After WW II, the Dulles brothers' shell game deceived a gullible and war-weary world. The "neutral" Dutch bank reclaimed their German assetts as "stolen" by the Nazis, and the whole merry fraud continued. Prescott Bush got his Union Bank back from the US Government in 1951, despite its seizure in 1942 as a Nazi front. Prescott Bush and father-in-law Walker were paid two shares worth about $1.5 million in 1951 dollars. It was a petty payoff for a job well done.
Nearly 4,000 shares (98% of the Union Bank holdings) were held by Roland Harriman in trust for the Rockefellers. That's about three billion in 1951 dollars, more than 30 billion dollars in todays money. Most of it was reinvested in post-war Germany where they made even more obscene profits. After all, Germany was just as cash starved after World War II as they were after World War I. It was just another cycle in the Robber Baron's spreadsheet. Everyone made money off the Holocaust, except of course the Jews and the Allied soldiers.
A few decades later things had quited down and all the Nazi money finally came home to Wall Street. By 1972, one of Rockfeller's assetts, the Chase Manhattan bank in New York, secretly owned 38% of the Thyssen company, according to internal Thyssen records in my custody. Not a bad payoff for the Robber Barons. The Auschwitz investment paid off handsomely. The Thyssen-Krupp corporation is now the wealthiest conglomerate in Europe. WWII is over. The Germans won.
Also in the 1970's, Brown Brothers Harriman, perhaps coincidentally, convinced the ever pliant New York State Banking Commision to issue a regulation permitting them to shred all their records for the Nazi period. The Robber Barons, unlike the Swiss bankers, knew how to cover their tracks.
There were, of course, exceptions. Von Kouewenhoven, director of the Dutch Bank, discovered the secret Thyssen-Nazi connection after the war, and foolishly went to New York to warn his old friend Prescott Bush. His body was found two weeks later. It was reported with a straight face that he died of a heart attack.
A dear friend of mine, former American secret agent William E. Gowen, played a principal role in unravelling the entire Bush-Nazi scandal. Gowen confirmed that years after Von Kouenhowen's death, another Dutch investigator, a journalist named Eddie Roever, also suffered a convenient heart attack just as he was about to confront Baron Heinrich von Thyssen-BjornaMissa at his palatial London home, across from Margaret Thatchers.
Margaret Thatcher may not have known (or maybe she did) that her neighbor Baron Heinrich's brother was the infamous Nazi, Fritz Thyssen, who served Brown Brothers Harriman at the heart of the Nazi war machine. The Dulles Brothers hired ghostwriters for Fritz's mea culpa book "I Financed Hitler." To this day, gullible American media believe that Fritz Thyssen turned against Hitler in disgust at the last moment before WWII. Now that is spin!
The truth is that Prescott's Unon Bank loaned the money to the Dutch Bank that loaned Hitler the money to build his first Nazi headquarters, the Braun Haus in Munich. The Thyssen's factories built the Bismark, the rail lines to Auschwitz and Treblinka, and sent the rest of their steel to their cartel partners, Flick and Krupp. Together, these war criminals made the bullets and the bombs that killed our parents' generation. They got away with it.
It is not suprising that their grandchildren are ashamed of how their families made their money. The only suprise is that the American media is still afraid to go to the US national archives and look at the files that John Buchanan found. But then, I am not surprised at all.
Here is what I wrote nearly ten years ago in "The Secret War Against the Jews":
THE BUSH-DULLES-NAZI CONNECTION
"George Bush's problems were inherited from his namesake and maternal grandfather, George Herbert 'Bert' Walker, a native of St. Louis, who founded the banking and investment firm of G. H. Walker and Company in 1900. Later the company shifted from St. Louis to the prestigious address of 1 Wall Street. . . .
"Walker was one of Hitler's most powerful financial supporters in the United States. The relationship went all the way back to 1924, when Fritz Thyssen, the German industrialist, was financing Hitler's infant Nazi party. As mentioned in earlier chapters, there were American contributors as well.
"Some Americans were just bigots and made their connections to Germany through Allen Dulles's firm of Sullivan and Cromwell because they supported Fascism. The Dulles brothers, who were in it for profit more than ideology, arranged American investments in Nazi Germany in the 1930s to ensure that their clients did well out of the German economic recovery. . . .
"Sullivan & Cromwell was not the only firm engaged in funding Germany. According to 'The Splendid Blond Beast,' Christopher Simpson's seminal history of the politics of genocide and profit, Brown Brothers, Harriman was another bank that specialized in investments in Germany. The key figure was Averill Harriman, a dominating figure in the American establishment. . . .
"The firm originally was known as W. A. Harriman & Company. The link between Harriman & Company's American investors and Thyssen started in the 1920s, through the Union Banking Corporation, which began trading in 1924. In just one three-year period, the Harriman firm sold more than $50 million of German bonds to American investors. 'Bert' Walker was Union Banking's president, and the firm was located in the offices of Averill Harriman's company at 39 Broadway in New York.
"In 1926 Bert Walker did a favor for his new son-in-law, Prescott Bush. It was the sort of favor families do to help their children make a start in life, but Prescott came to regret it bitterly. Walker made Prescott vice president of W. A. Harriman. The problem was that Walker's specialty was companies that traded with Germany. As Thyssen and the other German industrialists consolidated Hitler's political power in the 1930s, an American financial connection was needed. According to our sources, Union Banking became an out-and-out Nazi money-laundering machine. . . .
"In [1931], Harriman & Company merged with a British-American investment company to become Brown Brothers, Harriman. Prescott Bush became one of the senior partners of the new company, which relocated to 59 Broadway, while Union Banking remained at 39 Broadway. But in 1934 Walker arranged to put his son-in-law on the board of directors of Union Banking.
"Walker also set up a deal to take over the North American operations of the Hamburg-Amerika Line, a cover for I.G. Farben's Nazi espionage unit in the United States. The shipping line smuggled in German agents, propaganda, and money for bribing American politicians to see things Hitler's way. The holding company was Walker's American Shipping & Commerce, which shared the offices at 39 Broadway with Union Banking. In an elaborate corporate paper trail, Harriman's stock in American Shipping & Commerce was controlled by yet another holding company, the Harriman Fifteen Corporation, run out of Walker's office. The directors of this company were Averill Harriman, Bert Walker, and Prescott Bush. . . .
". . . In a November 1935 article in Common Sense, retired marine general Smedley D. Butler blamed Brown Brothers, Harriman for having the U.S. marines act like 'racketeers' and 'gangsters' in order to exploit financially the peasants of Nicaragua. . . .
". . . A 1934 congressional investigation alleged that Walker's 'Hamburg-Amerika Line subsidized a wide range of pro-Nazi propaganda efforts both in Germany and the United States.' Walker did not know it, but one of his American employees, Dan Harkins, had blown the whistle on the spy apparatus to Congress. Harkins, one of our best sources, became Roosevelt's first double agent . . . [and] kept up the pretense of being an ardent Nazi sympathizer, while reporting to Naval Intelligence on the shipping company's deals with Nazi intelligence.
"Instead of divesting the Nazi money," continue the authors, "Bush hired a lawyer to hide the assets. The lawyer he hired had considerable expertise in such underhanded schemes. It was Allen Dulles. According to Dulles's client list at Sullivan & Cromwell, his first relationship with Brown Brothers, Harriman was on June 18, 1936. In January 1937 Dulles listed his work for the firm as 'Disposal of Stan [Standard Oil] Investing stock.'
"As discussed in Chapter 3, Standard Oil of New Jersey had completed a major stock transaction with Dulles's Nazi client, I.G. Farben. By the end of January 1937 Dulles had merged all his cloaking activities into one client account: 'Brown Brothers Harriman-Schroeder Rock.' Schroeder, of course, was the Nazi bank on whose board Dulles sat. The 'Rock' were the Rockefellers of Standard Oil, who were already coming under scrutiny for their Nazi deals. By May 1939 Dulles handled another problem for Brown Brothers, Harriman, their 'Securities Custodian Accounts.'
"If Dulles was trying to conceal how many Nazi holding companies Brown Brothers, Harriman was connected with, he did not do a very good job. Shortly after Pearl Harbor, word leaked from Washington that affiliates of Prescott Bush's company were under investigation for aiding the Nazis in time of war. . . .
". . . The government investigation against Prescott Bush continued. Just before the storm broke, his son, George, abandoned his plans to enter Yale and enlisted in the U.S. Navy. It was, say our sources among the former intelligence officers, a valiant attempt by an eighteen-year-old boy to save the family's honor.
"Young George was in flight school in October 1942, when the U.S. government charged his father with running Nazi front groups in the United States. Under the Trading with the Enemy Act, all the shares of the Union Banking Corporation were seized, including those held by Prescott Bush as being in effect held for enemy nationals. Union Banking, of course, was an affiliate of Brown Brothers, Harriman, and Bush handled the Harrimans' investments as well.
"Once the government had its hands on Bush's books, the whole story of the intricate web of Nazi front corporations began to unravel. A few days later two of Union Banking's subsidiaries -- the Holland American Trading Corporation and the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation -- also were seized. Then the government went after the Harriman Fifteen Holding Company, which Bush shared with his father-in-law, Bert Walker, the Hamburg-Amerika Line, and the Silesian-American Corporation. The U.S. government found that huge sections of Prescott Bush's empire had been operated on behalf of Nazi Germany and had greatly assisted the German war effort." (1)
EDWIN PAULEY
"Try as he did," continue the authors, "George Bush could not get away from Dulles's crooked corporate network, which his grandfather and father had joined in the 1920s. Wherever he turned, George found that the influence of the Dulles brothers was already there. Even when he fled to Texas to become a successful businessman on his own, he ran into the pirates of Wall Street.
"One of Allen Dulles's secret spies inside the Democratic party later became George Bush's partner in the Mexican oil business. Edwin Pauley, a California oil man, was . . . one of Dulles's covert agents in the Roosevelt and Truman administrations . . . a 'big business' Democrat. . . ."
Among the key posts held by Pauley were: treasurer of the Democratic National Committee, director of the Democratic convention in 1944 and, after Truman's election, Truman appointed him the "Petroleum Coordinator of Lend-Lease Supplies for the Soviet Union and Britain."
Just after the end of World War II, "in April 1945 Truman appointed Pauley as the U.S. representative to the Allied Reparations Committee, with the rank of ambassador," as well as "industrial and commercial advisor to the Potsdam Conference, 'where his chief task was to renegotiate the reparations agreements formulated at Yalta.' As one historian noted, the 'oil industry has always watched reparations activities carefully.' There was a lot of money involved, and much of it belonged to the Dulles brothers' clients."
At the same time, report Loftus and Aarons,
"the Dulles brothers were still shifting Nazi assets out of Europe for their clients as well as for their own profit. They didn't want the Soviets to get their hands on these assets or even know that they existed. Pauley played a significant role in solving this problem for the Dulles brothers. The major part of Nazi Germany's industrial assets was located in the zones occupied by the West's forces. As Washington's man on the ground, Pauley managed to deceive the Soviets for long enough to allow Allen Dulles to spirit much of the remaining Nazi assets out to safety. . . .
"Pauley, a key player in the plan to hide the Dulles brothers' Nazi assets, then moved into another post where he could help them further. After successfully keeping German assets in Fascist hands, Pauley was given the job of 'surveying Japan's assets and determining the amount of its war debt.' Again, it was another job that was crucial to the Dulles clique's secret financial and intelligence operations." (2)
After Pauley retired from government work he went back to being an independent oil man. Loftus and Aarons state that: "In 1958 he founded Pauley Petroleum which: . . . teamed up with Howard Hughes to expand oil production in the Gulf of Mexico.
"Pauley Petroleum discovered a highly productive offshore petroleum reserve and in 1959 became involved in a dispute with the Mexican Government, which considered the royalties from the wells to be too low.
"According to our sources in the intelligence community, the oil dispute was really a shakedown of the CIA by Mexican politicians. Hughes and Pauley were working for the CIA from time to time, while advancing their own financial interests in the lucrative Mexican oil fields. Pauley, say several of our sources, was the man who invented an intelligence money-laundering system in Mexico, which was later refined in the 1970s as part of Nixon's Watergate scandal. At one point CIA agents used Pemex, the Mexican government's oil monopoly, as a business cover at the same time Pemex was being used as a money laundry for Pauley's campaign contributions. As we shall see, the Mexican-CIA connection played an important part in the development of George Bush's political and intelligence career. . . .
"Pauley, say the 'old spies,' was the man who brought all the threads of the Mexican connection together. He was Bush's business associate, a front man for Dulles's CIA [Allen Dulles was CIA director then], and originator of the use of Mexican oil fronts to create a slush fund for Richard Nixon's various campaigns. . . .
"Although it is not widely known, Pauley, in fact, had been a committed, if 'secret,' Nixon supporter since 1960. It should be recalled that Nixon tried to conceal his Mexican slush fund during the Watergate affair by pressuring the CIA into a 'national security' cover-up. The CIA, to its credit, declined to participate. Unfortunately, others were so enmeshed in Pauley's work for Nixon that they could never extricate themselves. According to a number of our intelligence sources, the deals Bush cut with Pauley in Mexico catapulted him into political life. In 1960 Bush became a protege of Richard Nixon, who was then running for president of the United States. . . .
"The most intriguing of Bush's early connections was to Richard Nixon, who as vice president had supervised Allen Dulles's covert planning for the Bay of Pigs [invasion]. For years it has been rumored that Dulles's client, George Bush's father, was one of the Republican leaders who recruited Nixon to run for Congress and later convinced Eisenhower to take him on as vice president. There is no doubt that the two families were close. George Bush described Nixon as his 'mentor.' Nixon was a Bush supporter in his very first tilt at politics, during his unsuccessful run for the Senate in 1964, and turned out again when he entered the House two years later.
"After Nixon's landslide victory in 1972, he ordered a general house cleaning on the basis of loyalty. 'Eliminate everyone,' he told John Ehrlichman about reappointments, 'except George Bush. Bush will do anything for our cause.' . . . According to Bush's account, the president told him that 'the place I really need you is over at the National Committee running things.' So, in 1972, Nixon appointed George Bush as head of the Republican National Committee.
"It was Bush who fulfilled Nixon's promise to make the 'ethnic' emigres a permanent part of Republican politics. In 1972 Nixon's State Department spokesman confirmed to his Australian counterpart that the ethnic groups were very useful to get out the vote in several key states. Bush's tenure as head of the Republican National Committee exactly coincided with Laszlo Pasztor's 1972 drive to transform the Heritage Groups Council into the party's official ethnic arm. The groups Pasztor chose as Bush's campaign allies were the emigre Fascists whom Dulles had brought to the United States. . . .
". . . Nearly twenty years later, and after expose's in several respectable newspapers, Bush continued to recruit most of the same ethnic Fascists, including Pasztor, for his own 1988 ethnic outreach program when he first ran for president.
"According to our sources in the intelligence community," state the authors, "it was Bush who told Nixon that the Watergate investigations might start uncovering the Fascist skeletons in the Republican party's closet. Bush himself acknowledges that he wrote Nixon a letter asking him to step down. The day after Bush did so, Nixon resigned.
"Bush had hoped to become Gerald Ford's vice president upon Nixon's resignation, but he was appointed U.S. ambassador to the UN. Nelson Rockefeller became vice president and chief damage controller. He formed a special commission in an attempt to preempt the Senate's investigation of the intelligence community. The Rockefeller Commission into CIA abuses was filled with old OPC [Dulles's Office of Policy Coordination] hands like Ronald Reagan, who had been the front man back in the 1950s for the money-laundering organization, the Crusade for Freedom, which was part of Dulles's Fascist 'freedom fighters' program." (3)
In 1988, Project Censored, a news media censorship research organization, awarded the honor of "Top Censored story" to the subject of George Bush. The article revealed "how the major mass media ignored, overlooked or undercovered at least ten critical stories reported in America's alternative press that raised serious questions about the Republican candidate, George Bush, dating from his reported role as a CIA 'asset' in 1963 to his Presidential campaign's connection with a network of anti-Semites with Nazi and fascist affiliations in 1988." (4)
NOTES: GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH
1.The Secret War Against the Jews, pp. 357-361
2.Ibid., pp. 362-364
3.Ibid., pp. 365-371
4.The 1993 Project Censored Yearbook: The News That Didn't Make The News - And Why, Project Censored; Dr. Carl Jensen, Director., pp. 230.
The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton
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If anybody wants to engage in an educated discussion about the similarities between the Program (and all of it's variants) and Hitler's Nazi movement, here's a good place to start.
http://www.questia.com/search/hitler-youth (http://www.questia.com/search/hitler-youth)
And Hip's right. The Nazis had a special burning hatred for the Jews. But then, they didn't invent it, it already ran deep in Catholic Prussia before the Nationalist German Workers Party ever hoisted the brickbat banner. It's very similar to the way people in this country find users of certain unapproved drugs to be such plausible scapegoats. Impiety: Your irreverence toward my deity.
--Ambrose Bierce
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t's also impossible to relate to the Jewish cause if you're not Jewish. One could make the connections of the Aramaic language etc. but I don't think any christian can relate. If you are a christian you are the majority. Where is your Diaspora? Where is your rejection from the Western world? Where is your Holocaust? Where is your marginalization?
my ppl were jewish! my holocaust? the dark ages were my holocaust!for 600+ yrs the romans and the hierarchy of the jewish community tried like hell to wipe us out!NEWSFLASH! it didn't work! in fact,the romans became christian and broke away from my ppl and decided to create the roman catholic church in 1098 A.D.and the jews were banished from isreal!.....now the fucking muselems are and have been trying to do the same thing! christians over in the middle east are still and have been being wiped out by the muselems for oh,the last 500+ yrs!there's no voice for them.....the middle eastern christians are the direct desendants of the original jews!my home village still speaks arameic!its the only place in the whole world where the laguage is still spoke! mel gibson,when he did "the passion of christ" had to go to the village of m//1uIa to learn enough of the laguage to put it in his film! my last name BEFORE it was anglosized here in america was N/ALvL/ > mal00l3y.......as far as rejection in the western world.....try the kkk,who would hang us just as quick as a jew....the muselems,who would and do kill us just as much,but with out media attention....hitler who placed us in the same concentration camps and fried us too.....the jews who kill us in PALESTINE.........by the way,christianity is NOT a MAJORITY...only in america it is....everywhere else its an extreme minority....it is in fact the largest 3rd world religion......islam is the largest 1st world religion!...thems the facts dude.......why don't you check out your history a little bit......i have and i do all the time!....
i'm not belittling the jewish cause,i was just trying to let damon see that it wasn't an attack on him for being jewish that i compared what he did to ppl in straight to the nazi's.....it was the actions that they did to ppl in there that was......isn't it funny that a jewish person CREATED STRAIGHT? MELVIN SEMBLER IS JEWISH!!!!!
ISN"T THAT HIPPOCRITICAL OF HIM,SEEING THAT HE IS JEWISH? IT IS TO ME>>>>>HIPPIE[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-05-04 23:45 ][ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-05-04 23:52 ]
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In the spirit of this discuusion regarding similair experiences to that of the Jews I have other examples I would like to share - being Jewish myself I believe adds a bit more credibility to these examples...
Other eerily similar events either equal to or greater than what happened to the Jews:
The Brocton Bombers - a team of 5 bowlers. They were asked to leave Olive Garden cuz they were too loud - yes! - they too were persecuted and driven out of an establishment - just like the Jews!
Freddy Lounds while playing with matches with a friend who looked German burned his finger - just like the Jews who were thrown into ovens!
Molly Graham who people thought looked Jewish was asked to work an extra half hour after 5:00 just like when the Jews were slaves in Egypt
Sidney Bloom who is Jewish had a co-worker enter his cube - the co-worker farted - it was just like a suicide bomber killing Jews in Israel today!
These examples and the ones you've presented leave no doubt in my mind that we can all relate to the misery, hatred, despair and violence done and still being done today to the Jewish people.
:wstupid:
~ binky
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In the spirit of this discuusion regarding similair experiences to that of the Jews I have other examples I would like to share - being Jewish myself I believe adds a bit more credibility to these examples...
Other eerily similar events either equal to or greater than what happened to the Jews:
The Brocton Bombers - a team of 5 bowlers. They were asked to leave Olive Garden cuz they were too loud - yes! - they too were persecuted and driven out of an establishment - just like the Jews!
Freddy Lounds while playing with matches with a friend who looked German burned his finger - just like the Jews who were thrown into ovens!
Molly Graham who people thought looked Jewish was asked to work an extra half hour after 5:00 just like when the Jews were slaves in Egypt
Sidney Bloom who is Jewish had a co-worker enter his cube - the co-worker farted - it was just like a suicide bomber killing Jews in Israel today!
These examples and the ones you've presented leave no doubt in my mind that we can all relate to the misery, hatred, despair and violence done and still being done today to the Jewish people.
:wstupid:
~ binky
[ This Message was edited by: Binky on 2006-04-07 06:04 ]
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Ancient Armenian Holocaust
http://www.hr-action.org/archive3/090800ind.html (http://www.hr-action.org/archive3/090800ind.html)
Somalian genocide at the hands of Saudis:
http://www.remember.org/karski/kaudio.html (http://www.remember.org/karski/kaudio.html)
North American genocide at the hands of European immigrants:
http://www.rosecity.net/tears/ (http://www.rosecity.net/tears/)
But, most versitile cause in all of history is probably Christian tradition, warped, turned upside down, explained backwards to people intentionally kept illitarate. This special secret recipe has wrought The Crusades and The Inquisition (up to and including witch burning)
http://mr_sedivy.tripod.com/med_hist3.html (http://mr_sedivy.tripod.com/med_hist3.html)
He who will not learn history is doomed to repeat it.
Guys, honest to god. The reprehensible act is what we all took part in, willingly or not, knowingly or not. Talking about it, frankly, is no crime. In fact I think it's our civic duty to get this shit figured out before our children inherit the mess.
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.
--James Madison, U.S. President
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you know,i tried to lay some serious history on you and you threw bullshit back....go ahead and check out what i'm saying.....but you won't.you'd rather try and trivialise the truth by mocking what i wrote.that figures.if it wasn't for the christians in this country,your ppl WOULDN'T even have a homeland ......thanks to the british and american christians,the jews were given palestine.
it created the future ww3!the problems we have today in the middle east are because of our support of isreal!the rest of the middle east hate us for it!.....if it wasn't for millions of u.s. dollars they wouldn't have been able to keep it too!instead of realising how good
it was of american and british christians to help your ppl out as much as we have for the last 50+ years,you're mocking the facts i gave you.....funny,the jews get all the latest military weapons and the palestinians use junk...and the jews still can't beat those ppl....
say i'll tell you what,why don't the jews PAY us back? yes,they owe billions to AMERICA!!!!! our national deficit is really BULLSHIT!ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS COLLECT ON OUR DEBTS!THE ISREAL ONE IS WAY OUTSTANDING>>>>>> AGAIN,JUST THE FUCKING FACTS!.....hippie
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On 2006-04-06 16:15:00, Psycho6 wrote:
Yea, you were screwed after leaving VA and heading north, and I think a lot of us would like to 'confront' Dean M., Mel et. al. on staff when we were there. Maybe one day! When I'm done with the current gig and got time to get back there.. B."
Can I tag along? Pleeeeeze? I promise to behave myself, sit on my hands and keep my caustic tongue firmly bidden as I should. I sincerely want to see what no one can adequately describe; the look in Dr. Riddile's eye as he takes this stuff in. I'll even promise not to write of it if need be; this is more about satisfying a longstanding personal curiosity than anything else.
Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status
--Laurence J. Peter
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On 2006-04-06 16:31:00, Nomad wrote:
I'll not defend myself to you now, nor will I ever - I have no reason to. And, I'll not easily forget that you and Ginger would call me a Nazi. I don't care what context you used *particularly* since you stated, clearly, that you know I'm Jewish. There is no greater attack on one's character than that.
It's the doing of it that's reprehensible, not the speaking of it. FWIW, I was a Nazi too. Not so much an enthusiastic believer as I was a denier; far too timid and self concerned to even comprehend what I was seeing and my part in it. I know how that works. Nobody sets out to be a monster; it just sort of creeps up on you. But just a little understanding and remorse goes a long, long way toward making sure that it happens never again! The surest way to bring it all about as quickly as possible is to... well, take a page from the Nazis; make the topic verbotten to speak of so that no one will understand it and we all will be easy marks for the same scam once again.
But how `bout we try and meet halfway. If I'm not allowed to say it cause I'm probably not Jewish (don't know that much about my family history) and Hip can't say it because he's of merely Semitic Christian herriatage, is it alright for Arnold Trebach to quote a Dutch drug Czar who states it outright and a Christian minister who alludes to it?
"Addicts are the scapegoat of our age."
--Reverend Terence E. Tanner, London, 1979
Last fall, I published an article on my web page titled MORAL INTEGRITY AND PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTEES: The Straight Skinny in which I mention a chance encounter I had years ago in Australia with our then Ambassador to Australia, Melvin Sembler, and his wife, Betty. This occurred at a major international drug conference, attended by leading experts from around the world. Ambassador Sembler was the key speaker at a huge banquet. During the course of his talk, he modestly mentioned that he had a little knowledge about the drug field, having founded a novel juvenile drug rehabilitation in America called Straight, Inc.
Actually I was quite familiar with Straight having investigated it extensivley and having devoted an entire chapter of one of my books to the abuses of Straight. In my view -- and that of many other experts -- Straight was a symbol of the destructive ignorance that lay at the heart of our entire approach to drug treatment and control. My wife, Marj, and I were stunned, shocked beyond belief to hear our esteemed ambassador mislead the international audience into believing that one of the horrors of the American drug war was a humane model for the world. We whispered to each other in disbelieving tones which drew puzzled, quiet questions from our distinguished table mates -- what are you so upset about, etc? We quietly responded and then the Dutch drug czar whispered that, oh yes, he knew about it -- "Hitler jugend!"
http://www.trebach.org/articles/Conference1.html (http://www.trebach.org/articles/Conference1.html)
Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)
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Tomato tomato. I was abused but does that mean that anyone who feels that I abused them can't call me an abuser?
There is enough evidence to compare them to Nazis. Mel Sembler is one of the biggest Nazis of them all. I can't say that to him just because he's Jewish? Fuck that!
What happened, happened and it was fucked up beyond all reason. I don't care what any of y'all's religious affiliations are, we were all Nazis to a certain extent. Some more than others but you couldn't escape it.
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this really does seem to be some sort of lexographical nightmare. since nazi's were dickheads we could just say dickhead or any other term that would avoid historically bad connotations. we could even call them semblerites or better yet, riddlers.
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The Nazis had a special burning hatred for the Jews
And who doesn't? :lol:
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No, that would not cover it and would defeat the purpose. If it suits you, though, we could just call them what they really are; Fabian Socialists. I just about fell out of my chair when I ran accross something about the Tousand Points of Light by H.G. Wells????! Yes, it's so.
http://www.constitution.org/col/cuddy_nwo.htm (http://www.constitution.org/col/cuddy_nwo.htm)
Huh! Will ya look at that? Büsh talking about the New World Order. Maybe they're right about people who speak of such things being depraved lunatics.
Or, if you prefer, we might explore the hypothoses forced treatment = Stalinist reeducation. We could go damned near anywhere with this.
I shit you not, this is a true story. I had a good friend in Florida who grew up in the mountains close to the Haitian/Dominican border. I'd been spending a lot of time messing w/ websites, reading up on new topics and such. So she asked and so I finally told her just wtf was keeping me so busy (only I wouldn't say fuck in front of her, she was extremely Catholic and might well have slapped me once just out of reflex).
One of the things I liked best about her was that she had a great appreciation for story telling. And so I told her pretty much the whole story, how they recruit and how they control and all that. When I was done, I asked her if she'd understood. She said "Oh yeah, Zombie".
:???:
Then she told me, briefely, how con men in Haiti would go about cowing frightened, vulnerable people and making zombie slaves of them, just as I described.
There are plenty of other comparrisons to be made. None of them too flattering. Life is like a shit sandwich; the more bread you got, the less shit you gotta eat.
--Anonymous
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On 2006-04-07 11:35:00, Eudora wrote:
"
On 2006-04-06 16:31:00, Nomad wrote:
I'll not defend myself to you now, nor will I ever - I have no reason to. And, I'll not easily forget that you and Ginger would call me a Nazi. I don't care what context you used *particularly* since you stated, clearly, that you know I'm Jewish. There is no greater attack on one's character than that.
It's the doing of it that's reprehensible, not the speaking of it. FWIW, I was a Nazi too. Not so much an enthusiastic believer as I was a denier; far too timid and self concerned to even comprehend what I was seeing and my part in it. I know how that works. Nobody sets out to be a monster; it just sort of creeps up on you. But just a little understanding and remorse goes a long, long way toward making sure that it happens never again! The surest way to bring it all about as quickly as possible is to... well, take a page from the Nazis; make the topic verbotten to speak of so that no one will understand it and we all will be easy marks for the same scam once again.
But how `bout we try and meet halfway. If I'm not allowed to say it cause I'm probably not Jewish (don't know that much about my family history) and Hip can't say it because he's of merely Semitic Christian herriatage, is it alright for Arnold Trebach to quote a Dutch drug Czar who states it outright and a Christian minister who alludes to it?
See? He's really, really Jewish: http://trebach.com/personal/ (http://trebach.com/personal/)
And yet he has no trouble at all seeing clearly and thinking lucidly about the nature of Mel Sembler's Program and behavior.
"Addicts are the scapegoat of our age."
--Reverend Terence E. Tanner, London, 1979
Last fall, I published an article on my web page titled MORAL INTEGRITY AND PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTEES: The Straight Skinny in which I mention a chance encounter I had years ago in Australia with our then Ambassador to Australia, Melvin Sembler, and his wife, Betty. This occurred at a major international drug conference, attended by leading experts from around the world. Ambassador Sembler was the key speaker at a huge banquet. During the course of his talk, he modestly mentioned that he had a little knowledge about the drug field, having founded a novel juvenile drug rehabilitation in America called Straight, Inc.
Actually I was quite familiar with Straight having investigated it extensivley and having devoted an entire chapter of one of my books to the abuses of Straight. In my view -- and that of many other experts -- Straight was a symbol of the destructive ignorance that lay at the heart of our entire approach to drug treatment and control. My wife, Marj, and I were stunned, shocked beyond belief to hear our esteemed ambassador mislead the international audience into believing that one of the horrors of the American drug war was a humane model for the world. We whispered to each other in disbelieving tones which drew puzzled, quiet questions from our distinguished table mates -- what are you so upset about, etc? We quietly responded and then the Dutch drug czar whispered that, oh yes, he knew about it -- "Hitler jugend!"
http://www.trebach.org/articles/Conference1.html (http://www.trebach.org/articles/Conference1.html)
Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)
"
...it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds..
--Samuel Adams
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u are not getting it
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On 2006-04-08 15:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"u are not getting it"
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What am I missing?
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Gandhi
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Give me your number so I can contact you..
Dean mistretta
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I would be happy to talk to you give me your number.
Dean Mistretta
[email protected]
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I would be happy to talk to you give me your number.
Dean Mistretta
[email protected]
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i wrote you.whats up,dean?......just so all the cards are out on the table....i'll "share" my letter to the "group"! i hope you don't mind,after all,its just what you would do to us,right?......how do i know you're who you say you are?the facts are,i don't! if you really are dean,then there are tons of people that want to share words with you....!you hurt a great deal of people,not just me,but for some reason,you really screwed with me! nice to see that after you finished being hitler,you owned a GAY BAR.....! isn't that hypacritical of a super staff member? being both gay and owning a bar?{and drinking too?}....you used to percecute so many guys for having admitted to having sex with males!{mostly,i believe, coersed confessions} i mean mentally tortured them! you were a mean vile person and you got off on it! i'm sure you got off on ruining my life......i went through hell after you and sylvia manipulated my rommates into watching me,reporting me etc.....but it didn't stop at my getting fired after only 5 weeks{you even had me banished from there and told me i'd be arrested if i ever stepped foot on the property}....nooooo,paul reported me to you and the people hire up the "food chain" and i wasn't even part of the "'gram" anymore!they called the cops on me and had me arrested for bullshit,had me followed around and watched like a lab rat! eventually i did succumb to drugs. i never forgot anything you and sylvia did to me.when you had so much power,you could move a few chess pieces where you need them and ruin a persons life! in my case,you & her needed help to do that!...when i think of dean minstretta,i think of someone who could've made a DIFFERENCE IN THERE, turned the fucking placve around,but DIDN'T ......you were an asshole to me when you were on your phases with me,when you were a staff member to me,and when i came up to be a staffer in stoughton......! i have never forgotten how much you misused your powers as "group staff supervisor" up in boston!......someday you'll get yours dean.....it won't be me,but someone or something will fuck you up! if no one on earth,then GOD......keep either getting it up the ass or giving it up someone elses ass....AIDS will take care of you......but i think you'll get yours from someone you've long forgotten.....some newcomer thats gay himself,that'll act like they want to go out with you.......a newcomer that wasn't in there very long before escaping straight,so you won't remember them! i'm proud that i wasn't part of your gang......most of them are ashamed of what they did under your acceptance of them.....the reason i don't hold them to such high standards is because they were right off thier phases and manipulated by you into being little hitlers! i wasn't ever like that....i never made fun of peoples defects in life.....remember when you humiliated me in front of the group for my hearing loss when i was on 5th phase a second time? i do! i also remember i talked behind your back and told my mom what you did....yep! i talked behind your back! then you got reamed by dr riddle and half-assedly apoligised to me,not in front of the group like you humiliated me,but off to the side of group alone! where was your humility?.....humble? you? noooooooo,not you! YOU WERE DEAN MINSTRETTA! SR.STAFF! being humble was BEYOND or BENEATH you & your image in there.......couldn't tarnish that ,huh? well,its real late and some of us have to go to sleep for a little bit in a day.....you see,i don't sleep very well anymore.the doctors say its because of my life on the streets in boston after you and sylvia "helped me out".....so are my accute depression and angxiety problems.....thanks for your expert help in my rehabilitation.......MATT MAL00L3Y
say what you want dean.....i'm not scared of you or what you can do to me anymore......on this web site i actually have a chance to say my piece!
all of us abused,regular phasers do! :smokin: smoke a real joint......hippie
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still waiting!!!! where's the great "DEANO" at?..
shit he was "man" enough to feed so many people the shit he did,but not "man" enough to face the music......hey binky,the anon and whoever from boston....where's deanie the weanie at?....YOUR GREAT LEADER'S CHICKEN TO COME OUT AND PLAY OR WHAT???????.....I'm still waiting for his fucking reply,PRIVATE OR BY E MAIL.....NOTHING HAS COME YET ....it figures! HE NEVER GOT CONFRONTED SO I GUESS HE'S NOT USED TO THE ROLE HE PLAYED BEING REVERSED ON HIM.....hip
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still waiting!!!! where's the great "DEANO" at?..
::bwahaha2:: ::bangin:: :smokin: