Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: starry-eyed pirate on January 01, 2011, 01:56:22 PM
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I am trying to piece it all together...(as always)...and am currently wondering how Chuck Dederich came up with the game. Was it something he came up with on his own or was he somehow influenced by what the North Koreans were doing to captured U.N. prisoners during the Korean war ? What is the connection ?? Was Dederich a vet or did he know any returning vets who told him of their experience ?? How did this idea travel from N. Korea to southern CA ??
Thankyou.
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Personally, I think Synanon's "The Game" was based in part on the TC-oriented confrontative group therapy practiced in an increasing number of U.S. prisons since shortly after World War II. Dedereich was an ex-con, was he not?
One has to wonder at the convenience of placing blame of such coercive excess on the Communist North Koreans, in the 1950s, when the North Koreans were certainly not the first to practice such diabolical methodology. This was something the U.S. government was quite aware of.
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Hm. Yes I think he was in jail but I don't know the details. I'll look into that. Thankyou Ursus.
And yes, one does wonder...
...many things...what the roots of "the game" are, among them.
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Here is some info, a few sites that helped me out. Synanon. I believe the origins came from his relations with Dr. Dan Casriel and his own genius. Chuck was a extremely intelligent man. He just managed to never get the help he needed to tame his demons.
Now, where did Dr. Casriel get his opinions and methods is explained better in the wiki site below. Inculcated and Setko are educated more so on Dr.Casriel.
http://www.directionjournal.org/article/?1272 (http://www.directionjournal.org/article/?1272)
The Rise and Fall of Synanon: A California Utopia
Reviewed by Richard Kyle
Rod Janzen
(Baltimore, MD: Johns Hopkins University Press, 2001), 300 pp
(excerpt from the article)
As indicated by the book’s title, Synanon was not a static movement. Rather, it experienced many changes, which the author recounts. Started as a self-help organization for alcoholics and drug abusers by Chuck Dederich, an alcoholic with a charismatic personality, the movement began under inauspicious circumstances and through the years gained and lost 25,000 members. Central to Synanon’s program—and close to achieving a sacramental status—were encounter sessions known as “the Game.” The Game consisted of confrontational techniques designed to strip down a person’s defense mechanisms and uncover the real person. According to Janzen, Dederich based his game on Emerson’s essay, “Self-Reliance.” Participants were encouraged to be brutally honest, spouting “indictments” to attack hypocrisy and fraud as their fellow members “ran their stories.”
Emerson's essay translated: http://www.youmeworks.com/self_reliance_translated.html (http://www.youmeworks.com/self_reliance_translated.html)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/synanon/synanon9.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/synanon/synanon9.html)
The History of Synanon and Charles Dederich
August 2, 2008
By Paul Morantz
(excerpt from article)
Dederich became an AA favorite speaker and went to an AA meeting every day. He read Emerson’s "Self Reliance" and using it as a bible he quit his job to devout full time to cleaning up other Alcoholics. He existed on a $35 unemployment check and charity from others. He volunteered for a Dr. Keith Ditman LSD experiment and felt he had a cathartic break through and now understood the world and that good and bad were the same. He studied on his own in a library and his AA speeches changed from typical religious overtones to a psychological/philosophy slant. He gathered his own following in AA and after a time of meetings at apartments, they rented a small store in seedy Venice. The original name was The Tender Loving Care Club. They played the "game" in which anyone was allowed to say anything, true or not, to someone to cause an effect. Only the threat of violence was prohibited. It was a game because one being gamed could turn the game on another. They survived by begging stale food from catering trucks, hookers doing tricks and donations. For a shower, a hose ran through a window (Casriel, So Fair a House, Yablonski, The Tunnel Back: Guy Endore, Synanon; Charles Dederich tapes on history of Synanon).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Harold_Casriel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Harold_Casriel)
Dr. Dan Casriel, So Fair a House, Yablonski, The Tunnel Back: Guy Endore, Synanon; Charles Dederich tapes on history of Synanon.
(excerpt from Casriel wiki)
In the winter of 1953 Casriel began private practice as a psychiatrist in New York City. Shortly thereafter he was appointed as a psychiatric consultant to the Metropolitan Hospital in East Harlem and the Court of Special Sessions in Manhattan where he became active in the treatment drug addicts.
In July 1962 Casriel visited the famous Synanon therapeutic community on the US East coast. So impressed with what he saw there, he moved into the community for a “closer look” and wrote a book about the experience ( "So Fair A House: The story of Synanon"). In February 1963, Casriel gave $2000 to seven members of Synanon to start a community on the West Coast. The result was a house on Greens Farm Road, Westport, Connecticut directed by Jack Hurst, former president of Synanon in Santa Monica [4]
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...O...well what about AA ?? What was an AA meeting like before WW2 ?? Because Chuck had been in AA. I've been to a few meetings in my day so I know it as a watered down, heavily diluted game. Straight was a much harder game but it was nowhere near as bad as the Chinese brainwash prisons of the 50s and yet when I red the accounts of people who were actually kept captive and brainwashed by the Chinese many visions of $tr8 were on me and I felt close to what I was reading, that it was almost mine. But the Chinese were even far more brutal than $tr8. Of course we were much younger.
I have the book about Synanon, the Tunnel Back, right here too. I guess I'll have to read that as well. I guess there's a lot to read. :suicide: :tup: ... :rofl: ... :poison: :peace: . :clown: ... :-
The Game.
The Seed.
How fundamental.
I wonder about the evolution of these social patterns.
I wonder when the U.S. government co-opted "the game". I wonder if Mao Tse Tung was a recovering alcoholic ?? :roflmao: Maybe he was. I don't know. I wonder how all these separate attempts at mind control coalesced into $tr8 Inc.
By the way to govern is to control. Mental is of the mind. Government means mind control.
Your intuition is righteous. O0
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In that History of Synanon and Charles Dederiech link it says Dederiech acknowledged that his program was brainwashing as described by Lifton, but doesn't say that it came from there. Maybe Dederiech was just a real hardcore AA member who took it to the next level the same way the Matrix House came out of the Lighthouse at the Narco Farm, and because he was concerned with narcotics addicts and not so much alcoholics, he modified his AA experience into a more hard core version and it became known as Synanon, completely independently from anything going on in China.
Strangely enough Dederiech also indicated that "the game" is based on Emersons "Self-Reliance" essay(which I'll have to re-read now too) Yeah, I wonder...in what sense ??
Emerson's ideals might have been the aim.
Dedereich was heavily influenced by an LSD experience and was determined to achieve the same level of insight without the assistance of the chemical. He would reach the same level of conscious awareness that he had experienced on LSD through environmental manipulation.
I wonder how much self awareness Dedereich really had and what part of his intentions were good, if any, and what part was a self aware pre-meditated criminal act an that kind a thing.
Synanon is a radical splinter off a AA.
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In that History of Synanon and Charles Dederiech link it says Dederiech acknowledged that his program was brainwashing as described by Lifton, but doesn't say that it came from there. Maybe Dederiech was just a real hardcore AA member who took it to the next level the same way the Matrix House came out of the Lighthouse at the Narco Farm, and because he was concerned with narcotics addicts and not so much alcoholics, he modified his AA experience into a more hard core version and it became known as Synanon, completely independently from anything going on in China. Yeah, I wonder...
I wonder how much self awareness Dedereich really had and what part of his intentions were good, if any, and what part was a self aware pre-meditated criminal act an that kind a thing.
Synanon is a splinter off a AA.
I wonder how much influence AA, Casriel and LSD had on Chucky boy. :rofl:
Chuck was looking for adulation and power. This is what I am getting out of it.
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Paul Morantz, the lawyer who sued Synanon and was nearly killed when members of Synanon put a de-rattled-rattle snake in his mailbox indicates that Dedereich was already a committed member of AA when he volunteered for a controlled LSD experiment with a one Dr. Keith Ditman, whose interest was in the mystical qualities of LSD. Dedereich's vision of Synanon came to him during the LSD experiment. The vision came to him under the primary influence of AA and the secondary influence of LSD. So Synanon is AA on Acid...for narcotics addicts...originally.
And that is where the game came from.
Hm.
thanks for the interesting links heretik.
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If awareness is a gift, where can I return it? I dont want it ,cant use it and would rather have the cash. Am I gonna need the reciept? :roflmao:
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If awareness is a gift, where can I return it? I dont want it ,cant use it and would rather have the cash. Am I gonna need the reciept? :roflmao:
You can't return it, but you can repackage it and regift it.
Spread the love.
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Paul Morantz, the lawyer who sued Synanon and was nearly killed when members of Synanon put a de-rattled-rattle snake in his mailbox indicates that Dedereich was already a committed member of AA when he volunteered for a controlled LSD experiment with a one Dr. Keith Ditman, whose interest was in the mystical qualities of LSD. Dedereich's vision of Synanon came to him during the LSD experiment. The vision came to him under the primary influence of AA and the secondary influence of LSD. So Synanon is AA on Acid...for narcotics addicts...originally.
And that is where the game came from.
Hm.
thanks for the interesting links heretik.
:roflmao: You can't make this shit up.
I am always at your service pirate.
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Jazz great Joe Pass credits synanon for saving his life. He recorded this tune for them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttER_M1QdY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttER_M1QdY)
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. I wonder if Mao Tse Tung was a recovering alcoholic ?? :roflmao:
:dose: :rofl:
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CEDU = Charles E. Dederich University.
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startin to figure something out here,about where the biggest damage got done to me. the other night i watched the entire cedu documentary, and it dawned on me....even though I was in straight not cedu.
The whole IDEA that we ARE our behavior, like when somebody tells you what a piece of shit you are ,for doing something they disliked. Is seriously damaging, and has really led me down a fucked up path.Ah yes the root of self loathing . Its funny,the worst thing men do to themselves,imho is when so much of our identity,self esteem and self opinion is based mostly on what we do. Like how we say bob the plumber, or because i failed at something, im a failure. Theres gotta be some other less damaging way of looking at it. But THE GAME, raps, profeets....or what ever the nom du jour is...It got ingrained in me that I am my behaviour. Now im stuck with the daunting task of figuring out a way past it.
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startin to figure something out here,about where the biggest damage got done to me. the other night i watched the entire cedu documentary, and it dawned on me....even though I was in straight not cedu.
The whole IDEA that we ARE our behavior, like when somebody tells you what a piece of shit you are ,for doing something they disliked. Is seriously damaging, and has really led me down a fucked up path.Ah yes the root of self loathing . Its funny,the worst thing men do to themselves,imho is when so much of our identity,self esteem and self opinion is based mostly on what we do. Like how we say bob the plumber, or because i failed at something, im a failure. Theres gotta be some other less damaging way of looking at it. But THE GAME, raps, profeets....or what ever the nom du jour is...It got ingrained in me that I am my behaviour. Now im stuck with the daunting task of figuring out a way past it.
Can you tell me please the name of this documentary (CEDU) and where I can find it?? I guess I could "google" it. This is easier.
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Very Kool....thanks Gate.
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…Where did "the game" come from ?...
Not sure. That is not sure that it can be traced to any singular line of progression because it seems to me to be a convergence of different elements that became what was called The Game. Until I find something more compelling, I’m going to mostly blame Dr. Harry Tiebout (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26291).
Personally, I think Synanon's "The Game" was based in part on the TC-oriented confrontative group therapy practiced in an increasing number of U.S. prisons since shortly after World War II. Dedereich was an ex-con, was he not?
One has to wonder at the convenience of placing blame of such coercive excess on the Communist North Koreans, in the 1950s, when the North Koreans were certainly not the first to practice such diabolical methodology. This was something the U.S. government was quite aware of.
True that.
Here is some info, a few sites that helped me out. Synanon. I believe the origins came from his relations with Dr. Dan Casriel and his own genius. Chuck was a extremely intelligent man. He just managed to never get the help he needed to tame his demons.
Now, where did Dr. Casriel get his opinions and methods is explained better in the wiki site below. Inculcated and Setko are educated more so on Dr.Casriel.
Uh, thanks, but I’m sure that relatively Awake may well be your better go to for Dr. Dan Casriel info. Certainly having read only three of Dr. Casriel’s books would hardly qualify me as having anything more than a tummy ache to think of them and some insight into the topics of them and into the author, but I am quite certain that whatever influence Dr. Casriel brought to his explorations of Synanon was well after the Game was on. http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Synanon (http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Synanon)
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…Where did "the game" come from ?...
Not sure. That is not sure that it can be traced to any singular line of progression because it seems to me to be a convergence of different elements that became what was called The Game. Until I find something more compelling, I’m going to mostly blame Dr. Harry Tiebout (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26291).
Personally, I think Synanon's "The Game" was based in part on the TC-oriented confrontative group therapy practiced in an increasing number of U.S. prisons since shortly after World War II. Dedereich was an ex-con, was he not?
One has to wonder at the convenience of placing blame of such coercive excess on the Communist North Koreans, in the 1950s, when the North Koreans were certainly not the first to practice such diabolical methodology. This was something the U.S. government was quite aware of.
True that.
Here is some info, a few sites that helped me out. Synanon. I believe the origins came from his relations with Dr. Dan Casriel and his own genius. Chuck was a extremely intelligent man. He just managed to never get the help he needed to tame his demons.
Now, where did Dr. Casriel get his opinions and methods is explained better in the wiki site below. Inculcated and Setko are educated more so on Dr.Casriel.
Uh, thanks, but I’m sure that relatively Awake may well be your better go to for Dr. Dan Casriel info. Certainly having read only three of Dr. Casriel’s books would hardly qualify me as having anything more than a tummy ache to think of them and some insight into the topics of them and into the author, but I am quite certain that whatever influence Dr. Casriel brought to his explorations of Synanon was well after the Game was on. http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Synanon (http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Synanon)
In this excerpt above coming out of Casriel's book I would have to say late '61 or early '62 was not that late on the scene for Chuck's "game". Dr. Casriel even helped fiance the advancement of Synanon on the east coast. I thought Synanaon had actually started very late 50's early 60's.
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The confessions that were part of the show trials in the Soviet Union in the thirties incorporated some of the coercion techniques used by the PRK and PRC interrogators during the Korean War. These phenomena do not appear linked to the development of the procedures used in Synanon and the entities that demonstrably grew from Synanon. I would be curiousto know how similar the "house parties" held by Frank Buchman were to the later manifestations of "The Game".
"An important part of the Buchmanite meetings was confession and "sharing." There were two distinctly different kinds of sharing:
1) sharing as confession, and
2) sharing for witness.
Sharing as confession was supposed to unburden one of the sins which Buchmanites declared kept people separated from God, while sharing for witness was intended to convince new prospects to join the Group and "surrender to God". That is, sharing for witness was just a lot of testimonials that were intended to convince newcomers that Buchmanism is the answer.
The Buchmanites were really big on public confession, and were always openly confessing everything they had ever done to meeting rooms full of strangers. They entertained their audiences with wild, humorous, and sometimes licentious stories of their sins, misadventures and escapades before they got changed into moral people by Frank Buchman and his followers. And converts would "share" the message that their lives had been much improved by following Frank's "Guidance" and "principles"."
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot090.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot090.html)
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In $tr8 1st and 2nd phasers played "the game"(raps) 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. You could only reach the higher phases by "internalizing" the game. Here's the weird thing, I'm just now, and by that I mean, within the last little while, realizin that I been playin "the game" in some form or another, with the world and everyone who's come my way since I was 17 years old, for the last 25 years...
I'm not so sure people will get the implications...
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startin to figure something out here,about where the biggest damage got done to me. the other night i watched the entire cedu documentary, and it dawned on me....even though I was in straight not cedu.
The whole IDEA that we ARE our behavior, like when somebody tells you what a piece of shit you are ,for doing something they disliked. Is seriously damaging, and has really led me down a fucked up path.Ah yes the root of self loathing . Its funny,the worst thing men do to themselves,imho is when so much of our identity,self esteem and self opinion is based mostly on what we do. Like how we say bob the plumber, or because i failed at something, im a failure. Theres gotta be some other less damaging way of looking at it. But THE GAME, raps, profeets....or what ever the nom du jour is...It got ingrained in me that I am my behaviour. Now im stuck with the daunting task of figuring out a way past it.
Yeah,you got it!...slavery through mental attachment.
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I wouldn’t be surprised if the name ‘the game’ was inspired by Game Theory and it’s classically referred to game The Prisoner’s Dilemma.
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GAME THEORY http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory)
‘Game theory is a branch of applied mathematics that is used in the social sciences, most notably in economics, as well as in biology (particularly evolutionary biology and ecology), engineering, political science, international relations, computer science, social psychology, and philosophy. Game theory attempts to mathematically capture behavior in strategic situations, or games, in which an individual's success in making choices depends on the choices of others (Myerson, 1991).’
‘Von Neumann's work in game theory culminated in the 1944 book Theory of Games and Economic Behavior by von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern. This foundational work contains the method for finding mutually consistent solutions for two-person zero-sum games. During this time period, work on game theory was primarily focused on cooperative game theory, which analyzes optimal strategies for groups of individuals, presuming that they can enforce agreements between them about proper strategies.’
‘In 1950, the first discussion of the prisoner's dilemma appeared, and an experiment was undertaken on this game at the RAND corporation.’
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THE PRISONER’S DILEMMA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma)
‘The prisoner's dilemma is a fundamental problem in game theory that demonstrates why two people might not cooperate even if it is in both their best interests to do so. It was originally framed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher working at RAND in 1950. Albert W. Tucker formalized the game with prison sentence payoffs and gave it the "prisoner's dilemma" name (Poundstone, 1992).
A classic example of the prisoner's dilemma (PD) is presented as follows:
“Two suspects are arrested by the police. The police have insufficient evidence for a conviction, and, having separated the prisoners, visit each of them to offer the same deal. If one testifies for the prosecution against the other (defects) and the other remains silent (cooperates), the defector goes free and the silent accomplice receives the full 10-year sentence. If both remain silent, both prisoners are sentenced to only six months in jail for a minor charge. If each betrays the other, each receives a five-year sentence. Each prisoner must choose to betray the other or to remain silent. Each one is assured that the other would not know about the betrayal before the end of the investigation. How should the prisoners act?”
If we assume that each player cares only about minimizing his or her own time in jail, then the prisoner's dilemma forms a non-zero-sum game in which two players may each either cooperate with or defect from (betray) the other player. In this game, as in most game theory, the only concern of each individual player (prisoner) is maximizing his or her own payoff, without any concern for the other player's payoff.’…
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Anyways there’s quite a lot on the subject, but that’s my hunch, as far as where the name derived from. As far as the application of this setting goes I believe that many influences had been developing for some time previously, and I doubt Deiderich himself played much part in the overall creation of ‘the game’. I think he was important simply because he was running the perfect model of the type of organization, Synanon, in which to experiment with group dynamics in ways unfeasible in other areas of society. Synanon was relatively miniscule when compared to many larger interests concerned with sociology, social psychology, which were developing exponentially prior to Synanon. My guess is Deiderich did not find inspiration, inspiration found him.
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...Synanon is AA on ACID....
...Yeah, and we're Synanon on acid. Synanonacid! ($tr8-(a)-(n)on-acid really... :rocker: :eek: :beat: :cheers: ... :roflmao: :rofl: :suicide: ... ::OMG:: ... :guesswho: ... :wall: , :dose: , :smashcomp: ... :ftard: ... O0 :poison: :peace: )
It's a pretty weird feelin, finally seeing the chain of influence, like this. I mean, in this way...kind a a milestone of understanding.
Man, the way Chuck Dederiech has influenced my life...
I'd have some questions for him but he's dead now anyway.
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Jazz great Joe Pass credits synanon for saving his life. He recorded this tune for them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttER_M1QdY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ttER_M1QdY)
Yeah, I checked it out. Never heard of him before but, thank you. :tup:
I watched a bunch a his you tube stuff. Man, he takes you with him. It's like watching and listening to him play you can get a sense of the game in there. In his way. And when it shows the audience I wonder how many of those people were synanon members, as they wipe away their tears when he's done. And strangely enough I feel like I can relate.
Anyway... ::OMG:: :rofl:
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Thankyou Inculcated. I red the article on confrontational therapy. Thankyou Ursus.
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though I was never in cedu, i kinda think staff there would have been spending a lot of time out in the weeds lookin for ol shamey,an not findin shit.......If str8 was like ,so open.....we wouldnt be havin this conversation...how come people didnt just haul ass? you know ..di di mow,am-scray, were these kids citified, not able to function in the weeds? Were there students at cedu who just fuckin vanished, It seems to defy logic almost.
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I grew up in the city and was for the most part citified, but i always did like wandering in whatever wooded areas i could find in and around the urban environs i inhabited.. When I split str8, I went down the nearest slope to the railroad tracks from a bridge that went over them..I ran, and then walked along in the afternoon sun of November for some miles until i reached a gas station far enough away, where i hitched a ride to Arlington, VA...from there i walked into DC..so being citified wasn't always a deterrent in my case (although being far enough away from the city I was more familiar with was).
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Seamus, this is off-topic, but I appreciate your use of the Vietnamese term, "di di mow", not sure that's the correct spelling, but I heard that a lot when I was a kid. My parents took in a whole family Vietnamese refugees after the war ended, so I had 4 Vietnamese siblings for about a year(1976), and their mother was always telling them to "hurry up" or maybe it means "run" as your post implied. I always thought it meant "hurry up" though. That's the only Vietnamese phrase I recall. Where'd you pick it up ?
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a family member ,viet nam vet, di di means to go,and i think mow,is now.
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Seamus: It wasn't easy to split CEDU-RS. It was isolated in the mountains. There was maybe 1-2 public telephones in nearest one horse town. The minute you were gone (keep in mind you lived in a dormitory with upper school narcs and every part of your day was structured and public) they called the Fuzz. (And they knew the only phone options. So those were staked. Also, you couldn't hike on open road) The back way down the mountain (no road, no trails, steep) was impenetrable. We did have escapees who had horrific experiences.
I split twice, the second time successful. The first time was all mistakes. The second I went through woods (but not down back slope of mountain), did not go on open road, did not use public telephones. It was a smart escape but also lucky and I had to live down low for a week before I finally made it to home town.
In any event, it wasn't easy. Also, others who did and got caught then had to do a full time which sucked.
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di di, does mean "go", mow is "now". Watch the "Deer Hunter" with Robert DeNiro and Christopher Walken in that hooch, remember the Vietnamese soldier smacking Robert in the face saying, "Mow!!!!! Mow!!!!" everytime he wanted him to hurry up and pull the trigger. Great freaking movie.
It's quite a bizarre movie. Three all-American boys end up in a scary country full of wicked asians who throw grenades into shelters full of civilians, prostitute themselves in front of their children, and play Russian roulette with captured soldiers. Not much in common with the reality of a war in which hundreds of thousands of US personnel set up shop in a medieval society trying to emerge from colonialism. While anything is possible, with 3 million dead Vietnamese, including 60 000 killed in the Phoenix Program, as opposed to 50 000 US personnel killed in the whole war, a Vietnamese being subjected to Russian Roulette by his CIA captors was much more likely than the snuff porn depicted in the Deer Hunter.
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di di, does mean "go", mow is "now". Watch the "Deer Hunter" with Robert DeNiro and Christopher Walken in that hooch, remember the Vietnamese soldier smacking Robert in the face saying, "Mow!!!!! Mow!!!!" everytime he wanted him to hurry up and pull the trigger. Great freaking movie.
It's quite a bizarre movie. Three all-American boys end up in a scary country full of wicked asians who throw grenades into shelters full of civilians, prostitute themselves in front of their children, and play Russian roulette with captured soldiers. Not much in common with the reality of a war in which hundreds of thousands of US personnel set up shop in a medieval society trying to emerge from colonialism. While anything is possible, with 3 million dead Vietnamese, including 60 000 killed in the Phoenix Program, as opposed to 50 000 US personnel killed in the whole war, a Vietnamese being subjected to Russian Roulette by his CIA captors was much more likely than the snuff porn depicted in the Deer Hunter.
Ah Em, I was old enough to be there while it was happening. Thanks for the history lesson. I don't believe any of the actors were portraying all-American boys. The part of Pennsylvania they lived was a mining region most of the people were Slavic immigrants. Just remember the wedding.
Anyway back to the topic....
It was just a movie developed for entertainment purposes, Heretik, if it had any truth to it they would have released it as a documentary.
...
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Yes, anyway...Vietnam...hmm. Heavy.
I am still realizin stuff about the game. How it forced you into a state of absolute conscious honesty, by reflecting your inner most identity back at you. In the beginning Synanon was an amazing thing, succeeding where not many had before...because it forced people to see who they were in a good way, but by the time it was distilled into the programs we were in, and after a while in Synanon itself, it had devolved into a forum for verbal abuse. Things that start out good are always co-opted by what I'll refer to as evil for lack of a better word. Ideals are good but cannot be absolute. One must have a gnostic sense. Knowledge from within, tempered by knowledge of the sensual world...
right ?
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Although I can still only guess (doesn’t look like there will ever be any hard evidence to prove this topic imo) I thought I’d add this to support my previous guess that it was named after Game Theory and the prisoners dilemma, and maybe related to John von Neumann’s influence coming from the Macy Conferences.
viewtopic.php?f=81&t=32643 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=81&t=32643)
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patience indeed...
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I wouldn’t be surprised if the name ‘the game’ was inspired by Game Theory and it’s classically referred to game The Prisoner’s Dilemma.
I'm in full agreement with you on the first half of that sentence, but a bit more cautionary 'bout the second. There were also other similarly "misanthropic" games in the arsenal of game theory popular at the time... E.g., John Nash's "Fuck You Buddy" (1950), later renamed as "So Long Sucker (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/So_Long_Sucker)," probably to get past word censors for publication purposes.
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O. Thanks Awake.
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An interesting aside- I don't know if any of you have read Philip K. Dick, but one of his novels (VALIS, I believe, or one in that trilogy) has a character who jumps out a window after getting out of SYNANON. (The trilogy was written a while back...you do the math, if so inclined.)
Ironic that SYNANON was inspired by people who were dosing on acid...the use of LSD was somewhat frowned upon by Straight Inc. if I recall correctly..
I live in a sci-fi novel, I wonder how it will end..
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i ts ok man I live in a comic book, called watch seamus fuck up.......I aint sweatin the ending, it s the next page gets me worried.
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I know everyone's different so I can only speak for myself, but I am absolutely blown away by the many ways this social experiment has effected my life. In $tr8, it was all "the Game" and we were never debriefed by anyone who could tell us how to temper our experience. We were left to figure it out for ourselves...the hard way.
I'm in complete wonder at the ignorance of my elders.
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Yeah, and having now red most all the links an stuff, I realize it's a bit of a simplification to just call it AA>Dederiech>LSD>Synanon>$tr8. Seems like Synanon was really a big deal though, I think Chuck D was a synthesizing agent. God of the Game.
One a those links said Dederiech was influenced by Skinner. I don't know much about Skinner...I heard he kept his daughter in a box.
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Yeah, and having now red most all the links an stuff, I realize it's a bit of a simplification to just call it AA>Dederiech>LSD>Synanon>$tr8. Seems like Synanon was really a big deal though, I think Chuck D was a synthesizing agent. God of the Game.
One a those links said Dederiech was influenced by Skinner. I don't know much about Skinner...I heard he kept his daughter in a box.
Was Casreil influencing in his meeting with Chuck during the early 60's. I know Chuck D. started his interpretation of the "Game" in the late 50's while associated with AA but as you say was it, "synthesized" during his collaborations with Casreil.
Have not been able to gather any real information that informs us about there discussions concerning confrontational attack therapy.
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I'm not sure about Casriel, I'd have to go back an check on that, but when I said Dedereich synthesized the Game, I meant he was the perfect conductor to channel the game. He was a unique individual. Intense, intelligent, charismatic, searching and manipulative. His personality animated the Game and made it into something powerful. My understanding is that whatever influences were on Chuck he's the one who made the Game the powerful tool that it became.
Sorry if that doesn't answer your question Heretik.
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heretik wrote:
"Have not been able to gather any real information that informs us about there discussions concerning confrontational attack therapy"
That would be very interesting. It seems like the Game would've been in full swing by the time Casriel went out there to check it out.
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I'm not sure about Casriel, I'd have to go back an check on that, but when I said Dedereich synthesized the Game, I meant he was the perfect conductor to channel the game. He was a unique individual. Intense, intelligent, charismatic, searching and manipulative. His personality animated the Game and made it into something powerful. My understanding is that whatever influences were on Chuck he's the one who made the Game the powerful tool that it became.
Sorry if that doesn't answer your question Heretik.
You actually did. I went back myself an re-read posts on Chuck D. and his personality. Your assessment of him is right on. Thanks.
I keep mentioning Casreil because of his interest in Synanaon and his subsequent involvement in Daytop. Inculcated has posts over on the Daytop Forum that goes into far more detail on Casreil and his exploits into Primal Scream Groups, Encounter Groups ect.....Encounter groups were used in Daytop, Elan and Marathon House they were a product of evolution possibly from Chuck D's "Game" and Casreil professional studies. (he is a Dr.) this is not to say it goes further then what I'm saying here. I believe Awake has tried to tie this along a linear path. I am trying to understand it all, if that is possible for someone like me.
Anyway thanks for your conversation and insights.
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Yes, well, thankyou heretik, and everyone else who contributed to the thread. My understanding is enriched.
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Definition from the folks at Merriam-Webster:
1game (http://http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/game?show=0&t=1295078967) noun ?g?m
Definition of GAME
- a (1) : activity engaged in for diversion or amusement : PLAY (2) : the equipment for a game
b : often derisive or mocking jesting : FUN, SPORT <make game of a nervous player>
[li]a : a procedure or strategy for gaining an end : TACTIC
b : an illegal or shady scheme or maneuver : RACKET - a (1) : a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other (2) : a division of a larger contest (3) : the number of points necessary to win (4) : points scored in certain card games (as in all fours) by a player whose cards count up the highest (5) : the manner of playing in a contest (6) : the set of rules governing a game (7) : a particular aspect or phase of play in a game or sport <a football team's kicking game>
b plural : organized athletics
c (1) : a field of gainful activity : LINE <the newspaper game> (2) : any activity undertaken or regarded as a contest involving rivalry, strategy, or struggle <the dating game> <the game of politics>; also : the course or period of such an activity <got into aviation early in the game> (3) : area of expertise : SPECIALTY 3 <comedy is not my game> - a (1) : animals under pursuit or taken in hunting; especially : wild animals hunted for sport or food (2) : the flesh of game animals
b archaic : PLUCK
c : a target or object especially of ridicule or attack —often used in the phrase fair game
— game·like adjective
[/li][/list]
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I have put a response over on Casriel’s thread in response to the conversation here. Maybe it will help, although it is pretty hard to find a solid history on the guy so it is a bit speculative. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&start=45 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&start=45) .
… btw I may have missed something, but did I ever reveal my gender on here? I can’t remember doing that. ….
.
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I wouldn’t be surprised if the name ‘the game’ was inspired by Game Theory and it’s classically referred to game The Prisoner’s Dilemma.
...
GAME THEORY http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory)
‘Game theory is a branch of applied mathematics that is used in the social sciences, most notably in economics, as well as in biology (particularly evolutionary biology and ecology), engineering, political science, international relations, computer science, social psychology, and philosophy. Game theory attempts to mathematically capture behavior in strategic situations, or games, in which an individual's success in making choices depends on the choices of others (Myerson, 1991).’
‘Von Neumann's work in game theory culminated in the 1944 book Theory of Games and Economic Behavior by von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern. This foundational work contains the method for finding mutually consistent solutions for two-person zero-sum games. During this time period, work on game theory was primarily focused on cooperative game theory, which analyzes optimal strategies for groups of individuals, presuming that they can enforce agreements between them about proper strategies.’
‘In 1950, the first discussion of the prisoner's dilemma appeared, and an experiment was undertaken on this game at the RAND corporation.’
...
Anyways there’s quite a lot on the subject, but that’s my hunch, as far as where the name derived from. As far as the application of this setting goes I believe that many influences had been developing for some time previously, and I doubt Deiderich himself played much part in the overall creation of ‘the game’. I think he was important simply because he was running the perfect model of the type of organization, Synanon, in which to experiment with group dynamics in ways unfeasible in other areas of society. Synanon was relatively miniscule when compared to many larger interests concerned with sociology, social psychology, which were developing exponentially prior to Synanon. My guess is Deiderich did not find inspiration, inspiration found him.
Whether or not Charles Dederich participated in the actual "gaming exercises" at RAND, chances are, he was probably aware of them. After all, he was employed by Douglas Aircraft in Santa Monica at the time. RAND was set up in Santa Monica right after WWII by the U.S. Air Force ... under contract to and, for all I know, located in the same building as, the Douglas Aircraft Company.
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I have put a response over on Casriel’s thread in response to the conversation here. Maybe it will help, although it is pretty hard to find a solid history on the guy so it is a bit speculative. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&start=45 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&start=45) .
… btw I may have missed something, but did I ever reveal my gender on here? I can’t remember doing that. ….
.
Awake,
My mistake, Faux pas or a Freudian slip either way it was uncalled for.
Please accept my apologies.
heretik
P.S. I corrected the mistake. It was edited.
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I wouldn’t be surprised if the name ‘the game’ was inspired by Game Theory and it’s classically referred to game The Prisoner’s Dilemma.
...
GAME THEORY http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory)
‘Game theory is a branch of applied mathematics that is used in the social sciences, most notably in economics, as well as in biology (particularly evolutionary biology and ecology), engineering, political science, international relations, computer science, social psychology, and philosophy. Game theory attempts to mathematically capture behavior in strategic situations, or games, in which an individual's success in making choices depends on the choices of others (Myerson, 1991).’
‘Von Neumann's work in game theory culminated in the 1944 book Theory of Games and Economic Behavior by von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern. This foundational work contains the method for finding mutually consistent solutions for two-person zero-sum games. During this time period, work on game theory was primarily focused on cooperative game theory, which analyzes optimal strategies for groups of individuals, presuming that they can enforce agreements between them about proper strategies.’
‘In 1950, the first discussion of the prisoner's dilemma appeared, and an experiment was undertaken on this game at the RAND corporation.’
...
Anyways there’s quite a lot on the subject, but that’s my hunch, as far as where the name derived from. As far as the application of this setting goes I believe that many influences had been developing for some time previously, and I doubt Deiderich himself played much part in the overall creation of ‘the game’. I think he was important simply because he was running the perfect model of the type of organization, Synanon, in which to experiment with group dynamics in ways unfeasible in other areas of society. Synanon was relatively miniscule when compared to many larger interests concerned with sociology, social psychology, which were developing exponentially prior to Synanon. My guess is Deiderich did not find inspiration, inspiration found him.
Whether or not Charles Dederich participated in the actual "gaming exercises" at RAND, chances are, he was probably aware of them. After all, he was employed by Douglas Aircraft in Santa Monica at the time. RAND was set up in Santa Monica right after WWII by the U.S. Air Force ... under contract to and, for all I know, located in the same building as, the Douglas Aircraft Company.
Yeah, I respect the research, but don't really get it. I have an intuitional sense that I don' think really compares...There's a manipulation that comes out a Dederich that fucks everyone after him, even though he's right and has insight. You can't rely on anyone other than your clan. And even then you have to watch out. Fuck $tr8.
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And, Yeah, What !? He was employed by who...?? Holy California!
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Either way...this way or that....
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to me its maybe not so important to understand the finer points of the synanon evolution into straight. It is important to know that the whole goddamn thing ,stinks to high heaven. mk ultra ,styanon, the seed ,str8> all like rotten fish.
Also I find it extermely upsetting to know that while a shitload of us were sweating it out on front row,sitting in that goddamn morgan yacht, right across tha bat,in tampa BCCI was laudering a shit load of $ to keep the Iran/contra thing afloat.The ties to the Reagan/ Bush/ Bush administations were un-deniable. The whole war on drugs was a sham. I mean w's GRANDFATHERs bank did big business with the Nazis,so how far from the tree do you think that apple fell? Union something bank, I believe was the name of it, I think in conn.
So in my mind hers how it really went. Make $ by enabling others to bring god knows what into the country, profit hugely from it,than appear to support an anti drug agenda, meanwhile try to gain the support of a cadre of brainwashed fucks ,the bastard stepchildren of mk ultra gone sideways. Im not done lookin at this bs yet either.
Talkin like this will probably get me killed someday. I dont give a shit. My way of thinkin is that we are just more collateral damage of a government gone mad. No different than ever it was, Even though people like newton,peterman,ross,barker and deidrich were all petty nazis..they too were used simply for thier zealotry...and could be easly cast aside or made to fall from grace,be discredited or fall on thier own swords. Once I began to understand ,It became clear to me that this cherade had ,been twofld,to break wills,while keeping up the mask of propriety, The rest has less importance.
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Jeez o pete, I usta poke fun at conspiracy theory types. Im just seein how really the lot of us were just getting used to prop up a criminal overclass who make capone look like the cubscouts. WE as human beings have NO value to them <none>.
Its all about control see?
Keep you poppulation, doped up ,frightened,marginalized,sniping at each other, segments of it scapegoated, give em plenty of names to ridicule each other with, liberal, conservative, ultra this or that...gay straight druggie...or when all else fails call em terrorists,fanatics....make em all distrust each other.....then the idea of your populus ever making a unified stand, goes totally out the window...hey tell me Im wrong. :flame:
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I am truly only speculating that the origin OF THE NAME ‘the game’ comes from game theory, to be upfront, I don’t know enough about it in particular (Ursus may have more suggestive evidence of that). All I know is it represents an all too coincidental metaphor, the history works, and it seems to make a lot of sense that it was inspired by the concept. Second, I don’t think game theory is, by itself, is the most significant source in considering the creation of the format in which ‘the game’ is played. (I think the most significant influence definitely comes from Kurt Lewin and Sensitivity Training (or T-Groups, or human relations training) and Group Dynamics.)
However it just seems to coincidental that game theory is the study of what people do when they are pitted against each other in various circumstances and it was important at the time in trying to predict the outcomes of war strategies. “The Game” as this small group pitted against each other in psychological warfare, and let’s just see who’s strategy wins… it just seems like more than a coincidence. In a sense, it is less important to know where it came from that to call it for what it is, either way I see a useful answer here.
I know ‘the game’ might have been different depending on which program you were in, but a related example about raps at Cedu is we had a ‘rap box’ and before raps everyone had to write the names of two people we had issues with and wanted to talk to. They would use the names in the box to arrange the raps. The game started before it even began, it was like a shooting gallery. You were already tense because everyone knew they were in there because they were on someone’s list, and the staff already knew who you “had issues” with who before they even knew what the issue was. It was just “hey you, you had to talk to her, what about?”. There was just no way to avoid playing.
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I wouldn’t be surprised if the name ‘the game’ was inspired by Game Theory and it’s classically referred to game The Prisoner’s Dilemma.
...
GAME THEORY http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory)
‘Game theory is a branch of applied mathematics that is used in the social sciences, most notably in economics, as well as in biology (particularly evolutionary biology and ecology), engineering, political science, international relations, computer science, social psychology, and philosophy. Game theory attempts to mathematically capture behavior in strategic situations, or games, in which an individual's success in making choices depends on the choices of others (Myerson, 1991).’
‘Von Neumann's work in game theory culminated in the 1944 book Theory of Games and Economic Behavior by von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern. This foundational work contains the method for finding mutually consistent solutions for two-person zero-sum games. During this time period, work on game theory was primarily focused on cooperative game theory, which analyzes optimal strategies for groups of individuals, presuming that they can enforce agreements between them about proper strategies.’
‘In 1950, the first discussion of the prisoner's dilemma appeared, and an experiment was undertaken on this game at the RAND corporation.’
...
Anyways there’s quite a lot on the subject, but that’s my hunch, as far as where the name derived from. As far as the application of this setting goes I believe that many influences had been developing for some time previously, and I doubt Deiderich himself played much part in the overall creation of ‘the game’. I think he was important simply because he was running the perfect model of the type of organization, Synanon, in which to experiment with group dynamics in ways unfeasible in other areas of society. Synanon was relatively miniscule when compared to many larger interests concerned with sociology, social psychology, which were developing exponentially prior to Synanon. My guess is Deiderich did not find inspiration, inspiration found him.
Whether or not Charles Dederich participated in the actual "gaming exercises" at RAND, chances are, he was probably aware of them. After all, he was employed by Douglas Aircraft in Santa Monica at the time. RAND was set up in Santa Monica right after WWII by the U.S. Air Force ... under contract to and, for all I know, located in the same building as, the Douglas Aircraft Company.
Yeah, I respect the research, but don't really get it. I have an intuitional sense that I don' think really compares...There's a manipulation that comes out a Dederich that fucks everyone after him, even though he's right and has insight. You can't rely on anyone other than your clan. And even then you have to watch out. Fuck $tr8.
Sorry, that wasn't a very clear or nice response. I have been reading all the links on this thread and am finding all the history fascinating. Thankyou Awake for all the interesting stuff about the Macy çonferences and the Double Bind/Game theory an all that.
Ursus, Chuck worked for Douglas Aircraft ?? That's interesting. In what capacity, if you know, please ??
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...Yeah, it's takin, a while for all the pre-Synanon/cybernetics stuff to settle in on me. I feel kinda-like a fool for bein so blown away, cause really this stuff is a pretty basic survival mechanism, that most folks develop to one degree or another, in their childhood or at least by their teens. I mean the principle of manipulation. The ability to manipulate others through your own clever behaviour. The set up.
Yeah. It seems that most people have that ability. They can be manipulative, so isn't all the game theory/cybernetics an' all just a scientific articulation of that process, I mean, extrapolated out to the social group ??
Yeah, and it is quite an impressive articulation, I should say.
And it's not even a big secret, it's right there for anyone to see if you only know where to look. The mind blowing thing is the way the government infects the minds of it's citizens with the double bind and even keeps itself in power that way. So it is really, all the program. Pledging Allegiance and singing patriotic songs about the revolution in school. Standing at attention before the flag...only to go to $tr8 and learn all this. The government espouses the values of freedom and democracy, while simultaneously plotting to control every social response of it's citizens to a social environment they all but control. As a society we're in Skinners box.
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Doesn't game theory rely on ego driven response, self interest over the interests of others ??
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And it's not even a big secret, it's right there for anyone to see if you only know where to look. The mind blowing thing is the way the government infects the minds of it's citizens with the double bind and even keeps itself in power that way. So it is really, all the program. Pledging Allegiance and singing patriotic songs about the revolution in school. Standing at attention before the flag...only to go to $tr8 and learn all this. The government espouses the values of freedom and democracy, while simultaneously plotting to control every social response of it's citizens to a social environment they all but control. As a society we're in Skinners box.
Well said!
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Doesn't game theory rely on ego driven response, self interest over the interests of others ??
I'd say that's a pretty fair characterization. :D
From what I've read, the "brains" at RAND would frequently test games on the secretaries ... with occasionally frustrating results. Namely, the secretaries would frequently agree beforehand to play cooperatively or to split the spoils of the outcome, despite whatever parameters said game had been set up to optimize. This could sometimes skew the outcome in unexpected ways.
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kinda like how we get conditioned to respond to order, when chaos is probably a more natural state. Seems sometimes my childhood conditioned me to see everything as my fault, that I was weak, disobedient,bad stupid,never amount to shit. So some body later on when some of the tree they planted bore fruit,they could say see, I told ya so.....Everything is about breaking (or at least badly bending) your will.Thats the double bind im stuck in. When I think back on it str8 only gave one of my parents one more name to call me....druggie. I had a parent who spent 40 fucking years,trying to break my will,standing in oposition of every dream I ever had,and ultimately when that didnt work( other than robbin me of self esteem,and hope) they hired a subcontractor, str8. I struggle with this every goddamn day.When I should have been learnind how to live I was busy tryin to survive one lockup after another, in the brief periods when I wasnt all locked up I walked around fucking bewildered,and fairly certain that I had a sign on my forehead that read " just got out of bein in(inset facility here) and being behind the curve as far as any sort of real world skills to get me ahead. Always in remediation,playin fuckin catch up, and mostly failing miserably.
So now ,here I am ,lookin down the barrel of 50.....wonderin how in the fuck did I (a) live this long and (b) get so far behind.
Any time somebody tries to help, I cant take it, im just to distrustful( cause I remember what that help thing REALLY means) I really wish I could never drink again. Prolly not gonna happen, I mean what,am I gonna go to AA? PFFFT... I can only sruggle thru any sort of "self help" thing with a pessimistic ,sceptical.....cant drink the cool-aid kind a point of view.
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And it's not even a big secret, it's right there for anyone to see if you only know where to look. The mind blowing thing is the way the government infects the minds of it's citizens with the double bind and even keeps itself in power that way. So it is really, all the program. Pledging Allegiance and singing patriotic songs about the revolution in school. Standing at attention before the flag...only to go to $tr8 and learn all this. The government espouses the values of freedom and democracy, while simultaneously plotting to control every social response of it's citizens to a social environment they all but control. As a society we're in Skinners box.
Well said!
And the source of some of Skinner's funding was, of course, governmental in origin. It's a closed loop.
Many prominent names were funded through The Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology ["a C.I.A organization used to channel money for MK-ULTRA research"], including:[1] B. F. Skinner, Carl Rogers, Carolyn and Musafer Sherif, Margaret Mead, Charles Osgood, Hans Eysenck, Martin Orne and Gregory Bateson.
Link (http://http://www.thejabberwock.org/wiki/index.php?title=MK-ULTRA_and_Academia_-_Part_3)[/list]
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Doesn't game theory rely on ego driven response, self interest over the interests of others ??
I'd say that's a pretty fair characterization. :D
Yeah, I guess that seems pretty obvious, but what I'm beginning to wonder about now is the relationship between the ego driven response required by game theory and the over-all state of our ego driven society. I would like to study American society in the early 1900s and note the major social and cultural values and compare them to our own, with game theory in mind.
I've been reading up on RAND recently.
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kinda like how we get conditioned to respond to order, when chaos is probably a more natural state. Seems sometimes my childhood conditioned me to see everything as my fault, that I was weak, disobedient,bad stupid,never amount to shit. So some body later on when some of the tree they planted bore fruit,they could say see, I told ya so.....Everything is about breaking (or at least badly bending) your will.Thats the double bind im stuck in. When I think back on it str8 only gave one of my parents one more name to call me....druggie. I had a parent who spent 40 fucking years,trying to break my will,standing in oposition of every dream I ever had,and ultimately when that didnt work( other than robbin me of self esteem,and hope) they hired a subcontractor, str8. I struggle with this every goddamn day.When I should have been learnind how to live I was busy tryin to survive one lockup after another, in the brief periods when I wasnt all locked up I walked around fucking bewildered,and fairly certain that I had a sign on my forehead that read " just got out of bein in(inset facility here) and being behind the curve as far as any sort of real world skills to get me ahead. Always in remediation,playin fuckin catch up, and mostly failing miserably.
So now ,here I am ,lookin down the barrel of 50.....wonderin how in the fuck did I (a) live this long and (b) get so far behind.
Any time somebody tries to help, I cant take it, im just to distrustful( cause I remember what that help thing REALLY means) I really wish I could never drink again. Prolly not gonna happen, I mean what,am I gonna go to AA? PFFFT... I can only sruggle thru any sort of "self help" thing with a pessimistic ,sceptical.....cant drink the cool-aid kind a point of view.
Yeah, that sucks. The only place I ever was kept in was $tr8... 'cep' a few weeks in the youth detention center...but I was in $tr8 a long time.
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And it's not even a big secret, it's right there for anyone to see if you only know where to look. The mind blowing thing is the way the government infects the minds of it's citizens with the double bind and even keeps itself in power that way. So it is really, all the program. Pledging Allegiance and singing patriotic songs about the revolution in school. Standing at attention before the flag...only to go to $tr8 and learn all this. The government espouses the values of freedom and democracy, while simultaneously plotting to control every social response of it's citizens to a social environment they all but control. As a society we're in Skinners box.
Well said!
Thanks Fro O0
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I dont know if anyone is aware that B.F.Skinner also wrote a book of fiction called "Walden Two" Ints about a fictional kind of utopic experimental community...I think it was written inthe 1940s...wait lemme go look(he shuffles off) yep the 40s,WELL worth the read..enough so that I wonder how fictional it is. Dont confuse this book with Therau either ,not the same thing at all...but btw his "civil disobedience" is worthwhile as well. I found my copy in a used bookstore in shitsville
Wisconsin...some years ago.
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...Yeah, it's takin, a while for all the pre-Synanon/cybernetics stuff to settle in on me. I feel kinda-like a fool for bein so blown away, cause really this stuff is a pretty basic survival mechanism, that most folks develop to one degree or another, in their childhood or at least by their teens. I mean the principle of manipulation. The ability to manipulate others through your own clever behaviour. The set up.
Yeah. It seems that most people have that ability. They can be manipulative, so isn't all the game theory/cybernetics an' all just a scientific articulation of that process, I mean, extrapolated out to the social group ??
Yeah, and it is quite an impressive articulation, I should say.
And it's not even a big secret, it's right there for anyone to see if you only know where to look. The mind blowing thing is the way the government infects the minds of it's citizens with the double bind and even keeps itself in power that way. So it is really, all the program. Pledging Allegiance and singing patriotic songs about the revolution in school. Standing at attention before the flag...only to go to $tr8 and learn all this. The government espouses the values of freedom and democracy, while simultaneously plotting to control every social response of it's citizens to a social environment they all but control. As a society we're in Skinners box.
I thought that was a right on interpretation there Pirate. At some level I wonder about the broader implications in society, but I think programs represent a level of control that crosses the line, and contributes to distorting our social definitions of values like ‘freedom’. I don’t know if anyone has been sucked into a multi-level marketing scheme, but they are pyramid schemes that can’t really work. If you buy into the business it is organized so that you make money off of the sales of the people you have recruited under you in your downline. These mlms will claim that they are selling a product, but it is made obvious that the only way to really make money is to not sell the product, but the business . So it is the structure of the system that takes advantage of peoples self serving behavior, and that means no one is going to waste their time trying to do anything but recruit more people and maintain their downline with constant e-mails and calls, because everyone has to maintain a certain amount of sales or they don’t maintain their place in the hierarchy.
At some level I guess I can see how these bs organizations are allowed to legally operate. Maybe, (big maybe), since you have to sign on the dotted line, and if you aren’t smart enough to figure it out then I guess it’s legitimate for a business to take advantage of them. What I CAN’T see as being legitimate is this type of design for use in ‘therapy’ systems in programs, let alone for use on adolescents who are forced to participate, without consent, in a process that is meant to decieve them into deceiving each other . I just find this to be so blatantly in contradiction of America’s espoused values of freedom, democracy, individualism, the ‘self-made man, the ‘American Dream’ etc. that crossing this particular line exposes the two faced politics at play.
And the source of some of Skinner's funding was, of course, governmental in origin. It's a closed loop.
Many prominent names were funded through The Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology ["a C.I.A organization used to channel money for MK-ULTRA research"], including:[1] B. F. Skinner, Carl Rogers, Carolyn and Musafer Sherif, Margaret Mead, Charles Osgood, Hans Eysenck, Martin Orne and Gregory Bateson.
Link (http://http://www.thejabberwock.org/wiki/index.php?title=MK-ULTRA_and_Academia_-_Part_3)[/list]
Relatedly, Ursus just named somebody, Carl Rogers, who sort of exemplifies that kind of two faced politics. This article “Carl Rogers and the CIA” http://jhp.sagepub.com/content/48/1/6.abstract (http://jhp.sagepub.com/content/48/1/6.abstract) has been an intriguing read into Carl Roger’s involvement in MK-ULTRA, which ironically took place at the same time as he was advancing the new field of humanistic Psychiatry, which comes from an individual, existential, and spiritual perspective. I won’t go too detailed into it but some things that were interesting to me were that the CIA funded Rogers to do research projects specifically into “the correlation of psychological and physiological variables in personality and personality change” and “personality change in psychotherapy for schizophrenics”. The article makes the suggestion that the CIA may have been interested in Rogers’ work on schizophrenics because the defensive, withdrawn schizophrenic is similar to a prisoner of war and an interrogator, and so the method of coercing compliance is similar.
It is pretty interesting, with some very important connective history and names, but the article is admittedly speculating on what he could have been working on, and I think there is probably more not being considered. This comes from the journal of humanistic psychology after all.
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This thread is developing interestingly, I’m enjoying the read.
MKULTRA connections abound and good links all around…
Here’s more on the topic Carl Rogers and encounters and more:
In 1965, Rogers wrote that his first involvement with encounter groups was “an intensive post-doctoral workshop in psychotherapy in 1950.” In Carl Rogers on Encounter Groups, he moved the date back to when the encounter group was first conceived in the aftermath of World War II. During the years 1946 and ‘47, Rogers and his associates at the Counseling Center of the University of Chicago were involved in training counselors for the Veterans Administration, when he was asked to come up with a psychological training mechanism which would help these counselors reintegrate soldiers, returning from the war into civilian life. http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/1999/rogers.html (http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/1999/rogers.html)
It wasn't all bad. The enlightenment apparently turned some Jesuit gals into sapphic love nuns while he was at it....Hmmm, wonder if the monsignor ever read ‘bout that
Carl Rogers used the basic encounter group as an instrument for self-directed change in Immaculate Heart school system in Los Angeles. Dr. William Coulson overseeing this project stated that the project “simply fortifies the staffs’ willingness to run risks. The individual is strengthened in encounter groups. He learns to trust his experience.” He saw the encounter group “as a medium of harnessing the energy of the student revolutionary.” Today those schools do not exist. The school disintegrated under the watchful eye of Rogers and Coulson. Both discovered a “pattern of failure” with the group encounter process. Rogers saw it as a pattern hard to overcome, traditional minds tended to prevail in society despite the pressure to change, while Coulson saw the process itself as a failure. Coulson continues to sound the warning today.http://authorityresearch.com/1998-06%20 ... 0BSTEP.htm (http://authorityresearch.com/1998-06%20NTL%20and%20BSTEP.htm)
Although he says he would have nothing to do with secret Agency activities today, he asks for understanding in light of the climate of the 1950s. "We really did regard Russia as the enemy," declares Rogers, "and we were trying to do various things to make sure the Russians did not get the upper hand." Rogers received an important professional reward for joining the Society [for the Investigation of Human Ecology, later called the Human Ecology Fund] board. Executive Director James Monroe had let him know that, once he agreed to serve, he could expect to receive a Society grant. "That appealed to me because I was having trouble getting funded," says Rogers. "Having gotten that grant [about $30,000 over three years], it made it possible to get other grants from Rockefeller and NIMH." Rogers still feels grateful to the Society for helping him establish a funding "track record," but he emphasizes that the Agency [CIA] never had any effect on his research (brackets mine). http://www.miraclestudies.net/BillCIA (http://www.miraclestudies.net/BillCIA)
And yes, these particular links have been specifically selected both for their informative relevance to the discussion and for my own amusement.
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Incucated,
Thanks for the additional information. On the topic of amusement, I would suppose it is ones own responsibility to take care of their amusement. :)
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...Yeah, it's takin, a while for all the pre-Synanon/cybernetics stuff to settle in on me. I feel kinda-like a fool for bein so blown away, cause really this stuff is a pretty basic survival mechanism, that most folks develop to one degree or another, in their childhood or at least by their teens. I mean the principle of manipulation. The ability to manipulate others through your own clever behaviour. The set up.
Yeah. It seems that most people have that ability. They can be manipulative, so isn't all the game theory/cybernetics an' all just a scientific articulation of that process, I mean, extrapolated out to the social group ?
Of course, the double bind method of mind control is a particular form of manipulation, with a scientific structure and a specific approach, not just any ol carrot and a stick, so the above is an overgeneralization and not completely right.
And it's not even a big secret, it's right there for anyone to see if you only know where to look. The mind blowing thing is the way the government infects the minds of it's citizens with the double bind and even keeps itself in power that way. So it is really, all the program. Pledging Allegiance and singing patriotic songs about the revolution in school. Standing at attention before the flag...only to go to $tr8 and learn all this. The government espouses the values of freedom and democracy, while simultaneously plotting to control every social response of it's citizens to a social environment they all but control. As a society we're in Skinners box.
This aint completely right either, but as American values expand into the world so does the program. The media carries it, the global market carries it...the people who wanta "make a difference" carry it ::) , like a disease....
...but they don't really control the environment completely, yet, either. There are still places you can escape to and likely always will be, but it is always a battle between the forces that exist within the American social dynamic, and they want slaves. Rand Corporation and all them. The U.S. government.
Anyway...I'm gonna make a T-shirt that says: "Game Theory Test Subject"... :rofl:
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"Places to escape to"..makes me think of 1984 and the protag's musings about disappearing / blending in with the "proles" in effort to get away from "the party." It was the only possible escape, yet it didn't pan out for them ultimately; a grim prospect, at least as far as the book is concerned...
I like the t-shirt idea, a lot! It would potentially generate conversation with anyone who had ever been in any one of these places (not just one of them).
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Ok, catching up on some fornits reading here...
Is there an ~expected outcome to the Game? What is the "normal" response when put in that situation? I want to know how many people just did not respond and was that considered some kind of emotional defect?
I certainly get myself into trouble when I start asking these questions, but that's ok.. IDC. In my mind, we are all equals here and had equality in our experiences no matter when, how long or where we were placed.
In sociology, I really had to think about the Asch and Zimbardo experiments when we talked about them in class. I knew that likely the rest of the students could not even begin to understand how that sort of thing happens and works.. but I did. I had lived it. And it just brought up so much for me about how would I have responded in those specific situations. Maybe I would have taken on a guard role or maybe I would have shocked the "patient". I just didn't know. I would like to think that I would have refused to participate, no matter the consequences.
And it's interesting that you brought this point up Pirate, because I can see where I may have super imposed this "Game" in my life since Straight. After Straight, even I demanded complete honesty from everyone... lies of omission were punishable (by me) and never cooperatively discussed. I can say that I don't think I have done that in a very long time though.. I don't need total honesty and I don't give it either. There are some things that some people just don't need to know about my life...maybe that is what has changed in me and led me to college.
So, in the Synanon or the Seed or any place.. what happened to the people who refused to "play the game"? And where are these people? What kind of emotional situations have they found themselves in since then? Where are the people who didn't even both to try and run away, but just waited it out...like one would wait out a hurricane...
Haha! Posts this long, always get me into trouble ^.~ be gentle..
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In sociology, I really had to think about the Asch and Zimbardo experiments when we talked about them in class. I knew that likely the rest of the students could not even begin to understand how that sort of thing happens and works.. but I did. I had lived it. And it just brought up so much for me about how would I have responded in those specific situations. Maybe I would have taken on a guard role or maybe I would have shocked the "patient". I just didn't know. I would like to think that I would have refused to participate, no matter the consequences.
Don't forget Stanley Milgram (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=21676), on whose expts. at least some of what Zimbardo explored was perhaps predicated. In fact, I think you may well have had Milgram in mind when you wrote about "shock[ing] the 'patient'," since, iirc, neither Asch nor Zimbardo used electrical shock in their experiments?
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* "Shock The Monkey (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_the_Monkey)." See also "We Do What We're Told (Milgram's 37) (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Do_What_We%27re_Told_(Milgram%27s_37))." And, from the Wikipedia entry Milgram Experiment (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_Experiment):
The track "We Do What We're Told (Milgram's 37)" on Peter Gabriel's album So is a reference to Milgram's Experiment 18, in which 37 of 40 people were prepared to administer the highest level of shock.[/list]
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Ursus,
Yes, you are right. Asch was the line guy and the conformity/peer pressure (sorta) experiment. I think of all those group conformity experiments as the same. Sorry =) It has been a couple years, lol.
The Gatekeeper,
I get it, Straight "raps" were just as aggressive and confrontational. But, conformity was not an absolute result. This is where I get myself into trouble...
So, instead of getting off topic.. I edited.
Thanks =)