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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Daytop Village => Topic started by: Paul St. John on January 23, 2006, 06:24:00 PM

Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Paul St. John on January 23, 2006, 06:24:00 PM
I've changed the names in the sories below.
For the record, none of them are me.



Coordinator: Julia Connoly
- a theif- stole from people while in Daytop
- A bully   - angry and stubborn
- A well known liar


No Status( Often Shot down): Bill Moranis
- a nice kid    -an overall honest guy
- Intelligent - never attacked anybody, but always defended himself

Daytop is society on drugs.
Backwards and unearthly.

It turns people's minds against themselves, making a person their own enemy, but also their own greatest controller.

The more you watch, The more you start to see. They steal from others and give to themselves.

They are not capable of making a genuine living, and so must steal one.



Sam Jordan-
Drank 'Christ's Blood' at easter mass with family.
Got screamed at by about a dozen different people in front of a crowd of over fifty.

He then was given the assignment to write an essay about how wrong he was in hios actions, and read it to the entire 'family', along with an apology to the 'family'.  It was never asked if he actually thought he was wrong, but he did indeed comply.  Where had his mind been changed?  I talked to him before the public humiliation, and he didn' think that he was wrong.  Could it be that he had suirrendered to the threat of further humiliation, and so agreed, and carried out the actions of first renouncing his own self on paper, and then publicly renouncing himself before the etire 'famil'.

Daytop considerred it a 'cleansingf'.

I considerred it 'disgusting'.


Chad Zackarocki-

A nerdy sort of guy, who was very honest, and had a good conscious.  I liked him.  For the most part, he did what he was told, but having a strong beleif in Christain ethics, always stayed midway in status.  He was pretty obedient, but did not have it in him to be an ambitious bullshit artist.  I swear he took all the good out of Christianity, and made it his moral code.

He had gotten into an argument with his mother who had told Daytop.  I do not know what the argument was about, but surely he did not mean to harm his mother in anyway, and had noticed he had seemed upset about something.  He really was a good kid.

Daytop's Response-

Chad had to scrub every garbage can in the facility 'til they were clean, throughout the whole morning meeting.  It wasn't until he finally broke down hysterically crying, that anyone inquired if anything was botherring him.  Until then everyone just soaked in the scene in morbid enjoyment.

Are humiliation and degredation really a productive form of treatment?  He was never even asked what the argument is about.  Maybe he was in the right, or maybe something had been botherring him that led to the argument..  When all is said and done, it is not even their business, which is why I never even asked, even tyhough I was curious.  But if you are going to be judge, jury, and executioner, it would help to have some of the fact.. Hell, maybe, even at least one fact, but no.. As they beleive in Daytop, that they are above reality.

and when mom says, " I am paying good money, and my child, still doesn t agree with everything I say, rather then act with consciousness, they act with haste, to keep mom hapopy, and the cash coming.  they don t care what the fight was about.  Chad was gonna learn his lesson.

So when mom says, " I'm paying you for a perfect son.", Daytop says," Cahd, you better break, or we will break you!"

It's not psychology.  It is bullying.
It's not therapy.  It's conquerring.

If I was in their place, I might not hace suspected that the actual problem might have been with Chad's mom.  Afterall, if you are to assume the role of a responsible advocate for child welfare, a little responsibility wouldn't hurt.

But put simply," THEY COULD CARE LESS ABOUT THE WELFARE OF A CHILD.  THEY CARE ABOUT THEIR PAYCHECK, and that's it! "

How hard of a job is bullying and conquerring really?  You just keep thinking of more and more fucked up things to do to a person, until a person fibnally gives way.  The person is a sitting duck.  they cannot leave.

Compare this to the world of actually creating something, and the difficulties, and effort involed in actually doing something productive, and beneficail.  Yet somehow, they have so thoroughly pulled the wool over everybody's eyes, that they are veiwed as saints, benefactors of society, and athorities to all.

-The mailman or the engineer is just another cog in the machine, but conselors answer a "calling".
They are specail people, who give up their own lives to help others. -

 I think people some times forget that these counselors are being paid.  They didn't give up shit.  they are taking an easy way through life, and many teens, myself included, had to pay the price fopr their laziness, and society's ignorance.

Drugs do their damage slow.  Daytop does it's damage swiftly.  Drug usage is a choice.  daytop treatment is suually forced.  A person can choose to stop doing drugs, while person usually cannot leave Daytop..

People say drugs leave you powerless.  Bullshit.  A person always has the power to change or continue in their current direction.. whatever they opt.  But a person has very little power to do anything at all of will, when in living a totalitarian structure such as Daytop.

For me, Daytop was hell.  I fought each day to maintain my  idea of self, and my convictions, but as a result I can tell the story better then any former Daytopian,whom I have met so far.(Not to say noone can, but just that I have yet to meet anyone who has as of yet.)
 At the time I seemed a glutton for punishment but today I am more then happy that I persevered.

I never accepted that it was my fault, or that I belonged there.

Paul St. John
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Anonymous on February 19, 2006, 07:37:00 PM
Sorry, this post lost
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 09:28:00 AM
Bitter little man too bad your still runnin
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Troll Control on February 20, 2006, 09:33:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-20 06:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Bitter little man too bad your still runnin"


Couldn't resist coming back to demean someone you don't even know, huh?  Didn't Daytop teach you to live your life and let others live theirs?  If not, you're in need of a few more life lessons.  Nice to see you still have the Daytop "junkie mentality." :roll:
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 09:34:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-20 06:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Bitter little man too bad your still runnin"


 :roll:  :roll:  :roll:
Yeah, would make things easier for you to believe that wouldn't it?
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 11:50:00 AM
dysfunction Still runnin huh?
2 bad God bless ya.
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Troll Control on February 20, 2006, 02:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-20 08:50:00, Anonymous wrote:

"dysfunction Still runnin huh?

2 bad God bless ya. "


Like I said on the other thread, I'm not a junkie and never needed anybody to abuse me into sobriety.

I don't use drugs or cults.
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 02:11:00 PM
That's too funny!  :roll:
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Paul St. John on February 23, 2006, 07:54:00 PM
Personally, I liked the thread better before eveyone else started posting their childish nonsense.  I think it looked fine with just my original post.

Whoever said the post lost is a boring MFer with nothing to do with his or her time, but antagonise.

and those other two fuckers-

Why don't you fight on the phone or some shit?  You waste so much fucking space.  Are either of you adults?


You two guys prove my point just as you have throughout all the threads.  You guys both counseled at Daytop and both act like fucking petty children.  You are like a commercail proving the points of all posts.

Peace,
Paul
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Anonymous on February 23, 2006, 08:04:00 PM
And who are you referring to. I don't see anyone arguing on this thread but you.
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Paul St. John on February 23, 2006, 08:06:00 PM
If you want me to point out the obvious I will hav3e to charge you a minutly rate.
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Anonymous on February 24, 2006, 09:46:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-23 16:54:00, Paul St. John wrote:

"Personally, I liked the thread better before eveyone else started posting their childish nonsense.  I think it looked fine with just my original post.



Whoever said the post lost is a boring MFer with nothing to do with his or her time, but antagonise.



and those other two fuckers-



Why don't you fight on the phone or some shit?  You waste so much fucking space.  Are either of you adults?





You two guys prove my point just as you have throughout all the threads.  You guys both counseled at Daytop and both act like fucking petty children.  You are like a commercail proving the points of all posts.



Peace,

Paul

"


The "post lost" wasn't a slam towards you.  http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#175188 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14038&forum=1&start=0#175188)

There was one jerk who came on here and accused you of "running".  A couple of us came over here to defend you.  Sorry, won't happen again.  :roll:
Title: Daytop Village is a Dump
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2007, 06:58:52 PM
Daytop Village in NY is a dump.  The counselors have no background in behavioral science, most of them have a GED.  The Director of Far Rockaway, was a junkie and a prostitiute.  The counselors are all junkies and have criminal records, to include Domestic Violence.  One counselor sells bootleg cigarettes in Harlem.  The organization is run by crooks who manipulated the system to generate federal funds.  The counselors that are employed there have no ambition, education, knowledge and skills to get employment anywhere else.  They don't even make $10.00/hour, so what can they do about the problem of drug addiction.  The even have a counselor there Deborah Bristol calling people racial slurs, SPICK, NIIII, etc.  

The health department needs to shut the place down for bed bugs, people with HIV preparing meals and every other health infraction.  But what do you expect with a facility that treats minorities.  Before anybody at Daytop Village can help anybody else, they need to close down, and hire professional staff with degrees to treat that problem.
Title: Daytop Village is a Dump
Post by: Anonymous on July 14, 2007, 06:59:47 PM
Daytop Village in NY is a dump.  The counselors have no background in behavioral science, most of them have a GED.  The Director of Far Rockaway, was a junkie and a prostitiute.  The counselors are all junkies and have criminal records, to include Domestic Violence.  One counselor sells bootleg cigarettes in Harlem.  The organization is run by crooks who manipulated the system to generate federal funds.  The counselors that are employed there have no ambition, education, knowledge and skills to get employment anywhere else.  They don't even make $10.00/hour, so what can they do about the problem of drug addiction.  The even have a counselor there Deborah Bristol calling people racial slurs, SPICK, NIIII, etc.  

The health department needs to shut the place down for bed bugs, people with HIV preparing meals and every other health infraction.  But what do you expect with a facility that treats minorities.  Before anybody at Daytop Village can help anybody else, they need to close down, and hire professional staff with degrees to treat that problem.
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: odie on July 16, 2007, 08:42:40 AM
As some of you know I have no great love for Daytop as many of their misguided staff do. However I do take exception to people who post anonymously raving about what's wrong with the place. The mere fact that someone has a criminal backround does not preclude them from working in this field. I am most outraged by the comment that HIV infected people are preparing food. If you knew anything about HIV you wouldn't make such an ignorant comment like that. As far as complaints about staff they should be reported to the New York State Office of Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Services at 1-800-482-9564.  :wave:
Title: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: hanzomon4 on July 17, 2007, 07:58:31 AM
Just my opinion, folks with criminal backgrounds should not be working with kids especially in an environment were the children are so vulnerable to abuse or exploitation.
Title: Re: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Anonymous on June 28, 2009, 11:37:02 PM
i worked at daytop 20 years ago in adol outpatient. i DO agree with you about methods. i was the only counselor in my facilty who was not an ex-addict and had a BA in psych. the yelling and screaming, the "haircuts" and encounter groups were unnecessarily harsh, especially for kids. i left in less than a year because of this. i can't speak for any other location but i can attest to the fact that although the other counselors were ex-addicts and ex-whatever else, they were INDEED concerned for the kids they treated and were not there for the check. in my time at least, the check was pitifully meager. i can say that all the ppl who worked with me, misguided as their methods were, wanted to help the kids in their charge.
Title: Re: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Inculcated on June 29, 2009, 12:20:19 AM
Quote from: "guest1060597"
i worked at daytop 20 years ago in adol outpatient. i DO agree with you about methods. i was the only counselor in my facilty who was not an ex-addict and had a BA in psych. the yelling and screaming, the "haircuts" and encounter groups were unnecessarily harsh, especially for kids. i left in less than a year because of this. i can't speak for any other location but i can attest to the fact that although the other counselors were ex-addicts and ex-whatever else, they were INDEED concerned for the kids they treated and were not there for the check. in my time at least, the check was pitifully meager. i can say that all the ppl who worked with me, misguided as their methods were, wanted to help the kids in their charge.
I’ll get the obligatory insult toward your language skills out of the way, by addressing that it’s a wonder you were even able to matriculate.

Thanks so much for that tepid acknowledgement of the daily litany of verbal and psychological abuse inflicted on the kids as being “unnecessarily harsh”.

You “attest to the fact that the other counsellors were INDEED concerned for the kids”. I’ll concede in some very misguided cases of those who were indoctrinated into perpetuators of programming, that’s probably true.

My question is how the HELL would you presume to speak of the motives of all the other counsellors?
Did it occur to you that despite whatever nobility you saw in their receiving pittance remunerations, some of them were getting a pay off from being in the only environment they could thrive in?
 
In that common ground they were free to express punitive love (AND IN AT LEAST ONE CASE CREEPY INTRUSIVE AFFECTION) and arbitrarily mete out sadistically humiliating learning experiences. Whether they themselves were so convinced or not, they told the kids this “harsh” “treatment” was for their own good. Sure some of them believed that, but it doesn’t mitigate the impact of the harm they inflicted.

If you really want to reach out, you could perhaps be more forthcoming with pertinent details such as which facility you worked in. Also,expand on "harsh" and "concern" from your unique perspective.
Title: Re: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Inculcated on June 30, 2009, 07:27:35 PM
If you really want to reach out, you could perhaps be more forthcoming with pertinent details such as which facility you worked in. Also,expand on "harsh" and "concern" from your unique perspective.-Inculcated
Still looking forward to your reply.
Who’s runnin’ now ?

Updated revision:
Never mind.I’ve had some burning questions sufficiently answered by someone else and they seemed on the level.
…Troll on
Title: Re: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Paul St. John on July 02, 2009, 08:35:05 PM
Quote from: "guest1060597"
i worked at daytop 20 years ago in adol outpatient. i DO agree with you about methods. i was the only counselor in my facilty who was not an ex-addict and had a BA in psych. the yelling and screaming, the "haircuts" and encounter groups were unnecessarily harsh, especially for kids. i left in less than a year because of this. i can't speak for any other location but i can attest to the fact that although the other counselors were ex-addicts and ex-whatever else, they were INDEED concerned for the kids they treated and were not there for the check. in my time at least, the check was pitifully meager. i can say that all the ppl who worked with me, misguided as their methods were, wanted to help the kids in their charge.


Perhaps, the counselors where you were actually did want to help the kids or at least appeared to.  The imporatnt thing in my book is that we agree the methods were misguided and unnecessarily harsh, especailly for kids.  You did the right thing by leaving!

Whether people where you were cared or only put on a good act, I can t know, but I do think that some people working in the programs are redeemabl, but the programs themselves are not.

Daytop is bad.  Daytop was far worse!  And Daytop is not alone.  These programs are like an epeidemic. Light needs to be shone on them.  

Also, they are an absolute insult to people who responsibly practice beneficail forms of psychology that actually benefit a patient.  These schools really run accordng to out-dated Dark Ages methodologies........and ph
ilosophies as their methodologies stem from their flawed philosophies, which many of the practitioners, it seems, cannot even verbalise but have only assimilated, through association, and "act as if".

Many of the Daytop community are well aware of what they are guilty of.  People have done many terrible things throughout history, in the name of a greater good.  Still they have been held accountable, even if with lenancy, still accountable

The actions that have taken place in the history of Therapeutic communities have been more then abusive.  They have been systematically abusive, and scientifically abusive. As opposed to the average child abuser who hurts their kids during a drunken fit, or because they are sufferring extra low self-esteem on a particular day, this abuse is contrived, planned, and razor sharp.

Paul
Title: Re: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Anonymous on July 15, 2009, 02:40:53 AM
I do not doubt that some people are better suited to daytops methodology. Without attributing blame or evil intention to daytop some guys respond better to it than others. I was there and saw a few guys just not handle it. Overall, with all its flaws the daytop I knew in 1980 was an elegant behavioral model addressing serious addiction. For some it worked well for others it didn't. We had alot of laughs and there was a tough  but warm family atmosphere. There is still no magic cure for hardcore addicts. Treatment is a work in progress. You should lighten up. Methinks though dost protest too much.
Title: Re: More Paintings that Leave Little Question
Post by: Paul St. John on October 31, 2009, 04:10:25 PM
Quote from: "steve f"
I do not doubt that some people are better suited to daytops methodology.  


And I think that Daytop methodologies are not suited to people



Quote from: "steve f"
Without attributing blame or evil intention to daytop..... .


Why shouldn't we attribute blame to Daytop?  Who should we attribute blame to.  They claim to be able to cure people of drug addiction, and they receive money to perform that service.


Quote from: "steve f"
some guys respond better to it than others. I was there and saw a few guys just not handle it. .

Then these people did not receive the services that their parents, the state, their school, and Daytop sponsors paid for.  That is pretty black and white to me. My question is - When it was realised that they were not responding to it and/or couldn't handle it, were they immediatly released from treatment, or still held there for months or even years against their will?

 
Quote from: "steve f"
Overall, with all its flaws the daytop I knew in 1980 was an elegant behavioral model addressing serious addiction..

The Daytop I knew in the early 90's ( a time in which it was better then the 80's) had not a touch of elegance to it, and I could not even imagine that any person who watched from the outside as a 3rd party who had the least bit of sense, would use of all words, "elegant", to describe it. I remember it as more of a "let's try this.. let's try that.. let's try this" .. very rough and frustrating for all involved sort of environment.  The fact of the matter is the program just did not work, and these you are typing are not even worth the energy it took to type them.  The program harmed many people who did not deserve it, made them less independent, less confident, more subserviant, less happy, slowed down their growing into maturity, taught them how to thrive through manipulation, and convinced them that they were dopefienes who were incapable of any thought or feeling that was not wrong, unless it was a thought or feeling that proved someone else wrong.  


Quote from: "steve f"
For some it worked well for others it didn't..

Win some ... Lose some..


 
Quote from: "steve f"
We had alot of laughs .

Well, that's impoartant.

 I watched an epsiode of "The Office" last night, and I had a lot of laughs.  You're probably wonderring how that's relevent. It's not.. just like you're having a lot of laughs at Daytop is completely irrelevant to whether or not it is an effective drug rehabilitation program.


Quote from: "steve f"
and there was a tough  but warm family atmosphere.

That's a bunch of bullshit, and you know it.  

Screaming obscenities at people in front of "the family" til they break down in tears = a tough, but warm family environment?

Or how 'bout the tough but warm family environment where family members have to sit motionless in a chair and stare at a wall for 12 hours..

They type of warmth you're talking about is the type of warmth that will slowly cook someone.

Quote from: "steve f"
There is still no magic cure for hardcore addicts..

and there never will be a magic cure

 
Quote from: "steve f"
Treatment is a work in progress..

AKA many unhappy people will go on causing unnecessary pain to people who are not in a position to protect themselves, but just until we smooth out the edges.. get it right... hang in there... it's all for a good cause  

 
Quote from: "steve f"
You should lighten up..

That was a wasted 20 characters or so. I am not a very maleable human being.. quite the contrary.  Did you think I would read that and say, " Oh.. You re right .. I should lightenn up. Oh gosh darnit"







 
Quote from: "steve f"
Methinks though dost protest too much.

What the fu** do I care what youthinks?

Paul