Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: SUCK IT on July 27, 2010, 02:21:22 PM
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When I first started reading fornits it took some time to get used to the workings and flow of the conversation here. At first its confusing, people seem to be fighting with each other and you have no idea why, or what about. But eventually I started to figure it out and then finally decided to jump in the fray and offer up my own opinions on discussion taking place. I'm sure many people have a similar experience when they first arrive here.
There was a reason why I was reluctant to start posting and was just a lurker for a long time. This is what I commonly refer to as Fornits Group Think. Fornits is good at hashing out ideas and discussing many different viewpoints. But rather than leave the discussion with these varying conclusions and ideas, some posters have a strong urge as it would seem, to end the conversation with a group consensus. I think this is a reason why threads go on for hundreds of pages, and the same argument gets had over and over again. Now to give credit to those who do this, as I probably have as well at times, is sometimes you can be effective in changing people's minds.
For instance when a "survivor" starts posting here but claiming they did fine in a treatment program, the "mind changer" posters are quick to get involved. The first stage these mind changer posters use is guilt. Dysfunction demonstrated this during our spat on why I choose not to call myself by the term "survivor". I choose not to call myself this, because it just makes me uncomfortable, on an instinctual level I must know its wrong because I just can't do it, sort of like trying to say "I love you" to someone you really don't, the words just feel wrong. And so it is with me and the politically correct fornits term. This seems to bother dysfunction so much that he was accusing me of disparaging rape victims. He had a good reason and it's the first step these mind-changers use, which is guilt.
It goes something like this. I went through treatment and did great, and post the name of the program, and when I was there. I say I did fine, never abused and graduated grateful. Then the mind-changers guilt posts will start. The first step is to inform you that your opinions dangerous to the credibility of those who were abused, and basically suggest that you just plain shut up, you know, so as not to invalidate, harm, discredit or question the testimonies of the "real victims". I've seen this happen a lot of times on fornits. I reject this theory that people who do well should remain silent, so those who had negative experiences can remain credible. OF course fornits claims this is an open forum welcoming all opinions, and perhaps on a structural level this is true, anyone can post here. But the gang of extremists which reside here make sure that this is never possible, because guilt is only the first step.
The second step employed by the mind-changers is humiliation and manipulation. Since you were naive enough to provide them information when you first arrived, they will scour your posts for any sign of manipulatable anecdotes. They'll quote something you wrote about happened in treatment and explain, you don't get it, don't you see? This is abuse, you are just ignorant of what abuse really means. Then they explain the watered down fornits definition of the word, which includes any kid who ever went to any treatment center. Oh, you say. Well, I'm new and I don't want to diminish the claims of these heart wrenching stories I keep hearing, I better also refer to myself as a "survivor", say I "was abused", and just shut up about the good things I remember about the program. Over time, the truth they had within them starts to fade and the mythology of fornits takes over, and it becomes their truth.
But there are some strong willed people out there who say, you know what, fuck it. I earned my rights to my opinions, I will say what I want and I know the truth and don't need to hide it to be politically correct and fit in with "the gang" on fornits. This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms. They'll investigate tirelessly to find out who you really are, in real life, and use that information to pressure you into silence. They'll post angry threats about how they wish you bodily harm, or that you were dead, in an attempt to scare you. "Better not mess with these people, they sound really crazy!" seems to be the image they wish to portray sometimes.
This sounds like what? Kind of like a cult, right? When a group of people come up with a mythology that no individual comes to believe on their own, outside the influence of this group, what is that called? That is called group think.
I should point out that, this is not just limited to "survivors", but it goes for almost every poster here, including parents of "survivors" like Whooter and that 15 year old girl's parents. Fornits has morphed from a discussion into a cult suffering from a bad case of group think, and it "brainwashes" people into this cult more than I've ever seen anyone brainwashed in treatment, thereby destroying the ability for people to post their truths and explain the details of treatment experiences. Instead the gang enforces a lowest common denominator echo chamber, where if you question your imposed politically correct title, somehow this equates with disparaging rape survivors of all things. Who brings rape into a conversation where it isn't being discussed? Someone with a desperate need to bring it down to the base emotional level, with a heavy dose of guilt. More cult bullshit from the so called educated among us.
Of course, as amusing as it is for people who never went to treatment to explain to those who have experienced it, what treatment programs are really like, this type of discussion produces nothing. Instead of these people listening and learning about other people's experiences in treatment, they hold onto their mythology with a tight grip and use its delusions to dismiss what is a more accurate truth than their own. I find this particularly interesting, when these same people claim others are brainwashed, etc, they are literally drowning in irony. Extremist don't wish to have a honest discussion, they simply want to disseminate their mythology to others who are gullible enough to listen, and bully those who question it into silence. If that's what you consider a "survivor community" then you people really are lost.
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says Professor Suck It.
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But there are some strong willed people out there who say, you know what, fuck it. I earned my rights to my opinions, I will say what I want and I know the truth and don't need to hide it to be politically correct and fit in with "the gang" on fornits.
It takes tons of will to go against the grain in a message board
and under a false name, never the less.
You are a true hero.
Paul St. John
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How can you claim Fornits is a group think tank - even comparing the forum to a cult in this respect - when YOU post here at will? No one is blocking you from comment, or dropping your account because you have expressed a POV not shared by the majority of frequent posters.
Find me another forum, operated by the pro-program crowd, where I wouldn't be blocked and banned in very short order.
Lon even kicked me off his little forum (twice) and I was always perfectly polite.
I've even been banned from newspaper's forums for expressing my POV on this topic even tho I was in no way being profain or threatening.
TAHT is group think at work.
THIS is not.
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Ken Zaretsky banned me twice, and I, too, was perfectly polite.
Paul
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Lon even kicked me off his little forum (twice) and I was always perfectly polite.
Oh hell, Lon eventually got to the point where he was trying to prevent us from reading the forum. He got infiltrated more than once. Eventually it died due to lack of participation.
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To BuzzKill,
As I said in my post, the structure of fornits forum allows free discussion. I did not fault the admins for censoring or rigging. I blame the self righteous enforcement gang, a group of extremist posters enforcing the cult's beliefs on their own will, as explained in my original post in this thread.
To everyone else,
Thanks for your opinions.
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This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms.
The only threats I here around here are from Danny, and he is of your point of view.
Let's check it out:
Ursus, Che Gookin, DJ, Froderik, Eliscu, the Reporter, JOM, Samara, Inculcated, SEKTO, Oz Girl, Anne Bonney, Psy, Ginger, Pile, Nihilanthic, Awake, myself ( other then the time I offered Danny the opportunity to realize his threats)
Show me where any of these people threatened anybody for being pro-program. The truth is that the majority of the people here are very peaceful, and too intelligent to have the need to resort to violence.
Paul St. John
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To everyone:
Here is a question to ask yourself and please do your best to be honest. Have I ever held back an opinion on fornits because I was concerned how it would be perceived and reacted to by other posters? If you answer yes, then think about that for a while and why that is.
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Have I ever expressed an opinion on fornits because I was trying to get a reaction from other posters?
Fixed.
Textbook definition of trolling.
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This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms.
The only threats I here around here are from Danny, and he is of your point of view.
Let's check it out:
Ursus, Che Gookin, DJ, Froderik, Eliscu, the Reporter, JOM, Samara, Inculcated, SEKTO, Oz Girl, Anne Bonney, Psy, Ginger, Pile, Nihilanthic, Awake, myself ( other then the time I offered Danny the opportunity to realize his threats)
Show me where any of these people threatened anybody for being pro-program. The truth is that the majority of the people here are very peaceful, and too intelligent to have the need to resort to violence.
Paul St. John
To make my point more explicit, I should probably add that Danny has not threatened people once or twice, but that he does it often.
I tried "friending" the now famous Wayne, to see if he was really a writer, and learn about his book. ( He apologetically refused me, because he thought that I might be associated with Danny, and is worried that Danny might threaten his friend's and family, if he got access to them. [ I don t actually think Danny would do that, but that is the reputation he has earned himself])
Oh wait.... I forgot... There is one other person who posts here some times, who just loves threatening people. Good ol' ARTMAN!
and what do Danny and Art both have in common? That's right. They were both program-staff. I guess it's just another one of those isolated incidents.
Paul St. John
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To everyone:
Here is a question to ask yourself and please do your best to be honest. Have I ever held back an opinion on fornits because I was concerned how it would be perceived and reacted to by other posters? If you answer yes, then think about that for a while and why that is.
Why is that? Are you serious?
People are geared by their nature to want to "fit in". No one is comfortable facing opposition or being singled out or being ridiculed - something the programs take great advantage of in creating the emotional trauma required to shatter a person's world view, their trust and faith and their "sense of self", so that they can then provide all this anew in a package they feel is more "positive". Its called coercive persuasion, or more simply: Brain Washing.
Here on Fornits, a person might well think twice about posting a POV that differs from that of the majority b/c they don't feel up to facing the on-slough of opposition, but they have no fear of being banned or shunned - something universally common in the group think forums operated by the opposing side.
I have been on all kinds of forums dealing with all kinds of issues, and I have never seen anything like fornits for sheer freedom of expression; or with so much bold individuality and willingness to express it. This exist here in such extreme measures, I have at times felt this was doing more harm than good. One thing for sure - what ever else is true of this forum - what ever else it might be - a group think forum it is not.
To say as you do, that free thought and expression is allowed but that it is a group think forum is oxymoronic.
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To everyone:
Here is a question to ask yourself and please do your best to be honest. Have I ever held back an opinion on fornits because I was concerned how it would be perceived and reacted to by other posters? If you answer yes, then think about that for a while and why that is.
Why is that? Are you serious?
People are geared by their nature to want to "fit in". No one is comfortable facing opposition or being singled out or being ridiculed - something the programs take great advantage of in creating the emotional trauma required to shatter a person's world view, their trust and faith and their "sense of self", so that they can then provide all this anew in a package they feel is more "positive". Its called coercive persuasion, or more simply: Brain Washing.
Here on Fornits, a person might well think twice about posting a POV that differs from that of the majority b/c they don't feel up to facing the on-slough of opposition, but they have no fear of being banned or shunned - something universally common in the group think forums operated by the opposing side.
I have been on all kinds of forums dealing with all kinds of issues, and I have never seen anything like fornits for sheer freedom of expression; or with so much bold individuality and willingness to express it. This exist here in such extreme measures, I have at times felt this was doing more harm than good. One thing for sure - what ever else is true of this forum - what ever else it might be - a group think forum it is not.
To say as you do, that free thought and expression is allowed but that it is a group think forum is oxymoronic.
I completely agree with everything you say. I am fully aware and recognize that fornits structures itself as a place for free expression of ideas, and that's wonderful, that's why I post here. Unfortunately some posters here fail to live up to this ideal and take it on their own to form, from my view, as an extremist cult that is seeped in group think mythology and enforced by bullying, manipulation, and threats. I don't claim that every poster here is a part of this group. But as you acknowledged, people do indeed withhold their true opinions in light of what they perceive as an "on-slough of opposition" and sometimes that response can be intense, as experienced recently by the family of a girl only seeking advice. I didn't attempt to make the point that I was ever banned for holding pro treatment views, or pro AA/NA views. The group think is imposed by users of the forum, not the forum hierarchy itself.
The type of extremism going on on this forum is more dangerous to kids than any program. What if this 15 year old girl had followed the suicidal and life destroying advice of Pile or Niles or even dysfunctional junction? She could be sitting in jail facing life behind bars for killing someone, or dead for having crashed her families car on the way to treatment, or worse. What kind of advice is it for a supposed professional child advocate like dysfunction to tell a young girl, better run away before your program tour, because you'll never come home, or better yet act up in ways that keep your mother occupied and bankrupt her. Yet they call someone like me, a troll? Remember this is a program that has no history of abuse, never once mentioned on fornits. Does this not strike you as slightly ironic and disingenuous on their part? Some people just accept their bullshit, and I choose to call it out when I see it. This garners much scorn for me, well it sucks to be me but it has to be said. At least I know I'm being honest with myself when I post even if I don't make any friends. :cry:
From someone holding an outside perspective on this industry, this is how the forum felt to me. I know other people will disagree. To someone that has sympathies against treatment, well they just might fit right in and never experience and subconsciously ignore the things I describe above. But ask someone who had the wrong opinion at the wrong time, and see if they think I am totally out of the ballpark in my opinions.
Thanks for your very interest addition of ideas to this discussion thread. I hope others can offer up their opinions and views on why they agree or disagree with my analysis, after all this is a discussion forum. Lets discuss
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I would also like to add. These threads I post are an attempt to explain the extreme advice given by the people I talked about earlier. I thought maybe they were "trolls" or in other words just joking about their advice, but after observing it appears they actually believe what they are saying. Does nobody else find it strange somebody could actually believe in their own mind, that murdering someone, sending yourself to jail, running away, bankrupting your own family, is somehow better than just going to a treatment center with no history of abuse? To me this is incomprehensible, so I post ideas and my own observations about why I believe this current state of affairs exists on fornits.
To me its clear that to hold such extreme views that you'd actually offer up such suicidal advice, you must have a fundamentally misunderstanding as to the true reality of what its really like in programs. This brings in the mythology, to tell a 15 year old girl to hit the streets instead of going to treatment, your view of what happens in treatment is way off. Magnify this times 10 when discussing a place with no history of abuse whatsoever. So its obvious to me the foundational knowledge upon which advice could come from is flawed. For some posters I believe this foundational knowledge is not based so much in experience in treatment,as much as what they've read here, including the typical fornits mythology I discussed before.
I think its an important question why it is some people here actually believe the absurd advice given by certain posters. I think it needs to be addressed, because obviously people are getting the wrong information if they would tell a young girl such things. I went to a so called abusive facility discussed here, I would never give advice like that to a kid. By doing so I would be greatly putting at risk the kid, and I know that the reality of treatment I experienced does not match up to the colorful mythology and lore that I was supposed to experience, had I only read fornits first. Well I didn't, so all I have to go on is what I experienced and observed, and how that relates to the, from my point of view, extremely skewed reality that is often times presented on fornits. I just thought I'd point that out, and maybe get people thinking, how is it possible that someone could honestly offer up such absurd advice, and what knowledge is such advice based on? Then you will get an idea of where I am coming from and why I start certain discussion threads.
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I would also like to add. These threads I post are an attempt to explain the extreme advice given by the people I talked about earlier. I thought maybe they were "trolls" or in other words just joking about their advice, but after observing it appears they actually believe what they are saying. Does nobody else find it strange somebody could actually believe in their own mind, that murdering someone, sending yourself to jail, running away, bankrupting your own family, is somehow better than just going to a treatment center with no history of abuse?
I admit that I am conflicted here. I do find it crazy recommend to a 15 year old girl that she murder someone, opt for jail, run away , or bankrupt her family. That is my initial reaction. I find those ideas crazy, and I want nothing to do with them.
Then there is this other bottom-line logic that someone like Pile can no doubt rouse up in me.
- If you are being forced to go somewhere, against your will, that you perceive to be a threat, do you have the right to defend yourself, even to the point, of ending the life, of another(the person applying force to you), if it became absolutely necessary? Although, it would probably not put you in a good place in society, and strategically would be a stupid move, is it morally wrong?
( I don't want to get into too much detail, because the lives of people I know are no one here's business, unless they wanted to talk about them, but as vague, as I can be, growing up, I had a friend, who was a really good guy. He left one morning to go on a family vacation, that really wasn t. One minute he is sitting in his car, excited about his destination, the next he si surrounded by a bunch of cultist-fucks, trying to physically force him, into their "family-school". He tried to defend himself with a baseball bat, and it's worth mentioning he was a peaceful guy.
I don't know... as adults, you view things differently- more practical.. but as a kid, 17 years ago, I was proud of him. He was defending himself. He had problems, but everybody did. It was part of growing up.)
-Now, the jail-thing... For Morgan, No! I would definitely not recommend jail. I think she would be better off floating her way through the program, but I do know of people who opted for jail, over going back to Daytop, which wasn t really nearly as bad as some other places, and afterwards, they were really glad they did it.
Running away- again, not for Morgan.. but perhaps for some, in her situation.. We gotta remember here. They didn t give her any outs. They told her that if she did this, and that, she didn t have to go, but when she agreed, she still had to go no matter what. dad was willing to keep his promise, but mom had made her mind up long ago... And it s also worth mentioning here, that while I strongly disagree with what Pile did, with the posting of the info and such, I don t disagree that the parents are assholes, and the things that I learned from what he posted, only confirmed that further for me. I am not gonna jump on Danny B's boat about "Parent Abuse". Adults can take care of themselves, which is clearly demonstrated by how people deal with his attacks. When I saw the pics of Morgan's mom, I asked myself, "and what program shall we send this one too?"
My opinion based on what I saw, is that she wants her "troubled" daughter out of the way, so she has less impediments to pursue her own troubles.
I went off on a tangent there, but I would say that in her situation, there might be some who would be better off running away. I am basing this on my memories and experiences from when I was a child. Today I would never consider giving that as advice though. (hence, my being conflicted)
Bankrupting your own family to avoid going? I gotta admit it sounds really fucked up, and selfiish to me..
But now let's say you are a kid, and don t want to be shipped off. Your parents are sending you away with little regard, or any curiosity about how you feel about it. We all spoke to Morgan. She was a very intelligent, mature young woman. We are not talking about a girl getting high on drugs, inflicting harm against herself, a pyro -maniac, or any other shit. What is her best defense? Her family has turned her back on her, is it morally wrong for her to attempt to bankrupt her family for protection from them? I don t know.. She would only be trying to defend herself.. I wouldn t offer it as advice, because in the end, she will only be making more problems for herself. It is a dumb silly idea. DJ is silly. It is ashame too. because if he matured a bit, he could be very effective.
In my life, I don t have to worry about none of this shit. I just know, somehow, that no one that I care about, will go to one of these programs, so long as I am alive. I trust myself to make sure of that, as sure as the sky is blue, without my having to do anything stupid, reccomend anything stupid, or cause harm to anyone.
Paul St. John
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But Paul, by your own admittance you don’t see this treatment as being effective for anyone. So your point of view is biased and could put people in danger. We don’t have the whole history of Morgan and her family. A third party should be involved to determine if residential treatment is needed. There is this desperation to avoid a program at “all costs” here on fornits (even if it means hurting a 15 year old girl, we have seen this happen) when we know there are good programs out there and they can be very effective. Thousands of kids go through them each year without getting hurt and up to 80% getting the help they need by their own accord.
Go back and look at the same situation only that the 15 year old girl is going off to receive Chemo. Would the same advice apply if I personally felt Chemo would do more harm than good. Should she bankrupt her family, stab her parents or commit a crime so that she goes to prison? Would we tell her to run away? Does the girl have a say at age 15 to determine if Chemo is the best route for her? Do the parents have a say? Am I doing good by stating that as long as I am alive no one that I am close to will ever receive Chemotherapy? Do we have the right to intercede in other families affairs to that level of involvement?
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I would also like to add. These threads I post are an attempt to explain the extreme advice given by the people I talked about earlier. I thought maybe they were "trolls" or in other words just joking about their advice, but after observing it appears they actually believe what they are saying. Does nobody else find it strange somebody could actually believe in their own mind, that murdering someone, sending yourself to jail, running away, bankrupting your own family, is somehow better than just going to a treatment center with no history of abuse?
I admit that I am conflicted here. I do find it crazy recommend to a 15 year old girl that she murder someone, opt for jail, run away , or bankrupt her family. That is my initial reaction. I find those ideas crazy, and I want nothing to do with them.
You should be conflicted, your writing about a 15 year old child.
Then there is this other bottom-line logic that someone like Pile can no doubt rouse up in me.
- If you are being forced to go somewhere, against your will, that you perceive to be a threat, do you have the right to defend yourself, even to the point, of ending the life, of another(the person applying force to you), if it became absolutely necessary? Although, it would probably not put you in a good place in society, and strategically would be a stupid move, is it morally wrong?
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( I don't want to get into too much detail, because the lives of people I know are no one here's business, unless they wanted to talk about them, but as vague, as I can be, growing up, I had a friend, who was a really good guy. He left one morning to go on a family vacation, that really wasn t. One minute he is sitting in his car, excited about his destination, the next he si surrounded by a bunch of cultist-fucks, trying to physically force him, into their "family-school". He tried to defend himself with a baseball bat, and it's worth mentioning he was a peaceful guy.
I don't know... as adults, you view things differently- more practical.. but as a kid, 17 years ago, I was proud of him. He was defending himself. He had problems, but everybody did. It was part of growing up.)
-Now, the jail-thing... For Morgan, No! I would definitely not recommend jail. I think she would be better off floating her way through the program, but I do know of people who opted for jail, over going back to Daytop, which wasn t really nearly as bad as some other places, and afterwards, they were really glad they did it.
Were they not close to being 18yrs of age. I have not met one person who was happier for being in juvie then in a program. Paul have you ever been in juvie or prison????
Running away- again, not for Morgan.. but perhaps for some, in her situation.. We gotta remember here. They didn t give her any outs. They told her that if she did this, and that, she didn t have to go, but when she agreed, she still had to go no matter what. dad was willing to keep his promise, but mom had made her mind up long ago... And it s also worth mentioning here, that while I strongly disagree with what Pile did, with the posting of the info and such, I don t disagree that the parents are assholes, and the things that I learned from what he posted, only confirmed that further for me. I am not gonna jump on Danny B's boat about "Parent Abuse". Adults can take care of themselves, which is clearly demonstrated by how people deal with his attacks. When I saw the pics of Morgan's mom, I asked myself, "and what program shall we send this one too?"
Paul here we are again. You never ran away, even as you were taken to Daytop. You would never allow a 15 yr. old child to run away or even suggest it if you were a parent.
We don't know really what went on in that household of Morgan and her parents. We got a brief glimpse of that family like a snapshot. Out of that we got this aggressive onslaught from individuals that were angry at other posters for giving advice contrary to theirs.
My opinion based on what I saw, is that she wants her "troubled" daughter out of the way, so she has less impediments to pursue her own troubles.
What did you see, you spent the weekend with them????
I went off on a tangent there, but I would say that in her situation, there might be some who would be better off running away. I am basing this on my memories and experiences from when I was a child. Today I would never consider giving that as advice though. (hence, my being conflicted)
Terrible advice and I don't believe it for a minute, this talk is for your buddies. Get real Paul.
Bankrupting your own family to avoid going? I gotta admit it sounds really fucked up, and selfiish to me..
But now let's say you are a kid, and don t want to be shipped off. Your parents are sending you away with little regard, or any curiosity about how you feel about it. We all spoke to Morgan. She was a very intelligent, mature young woman. We are not talking about a girl getting high on drugs, inflicting harm against herself, a pyro -maniac, or any other shit. What is her best defense? Her family has turned her back on her, is it morally wrong for her to attempt to bankrupt her family for protection from them? I don t know.. She would only be trying to defend herself.. I wouldn t offer it as advice, because in the end, she will only be making more problems for herself. It is a dumb silly idea. DJ is silly. It is ashame too. because if he matured a bit, he could be very effective.
We do not know from 3 conversations on the phone and internet conversations that Morgan does not have problems. That is a fact. We can pass judgment on her parents all we want, they did seem a little weird. I must say though we should hold back all these assumptions, unless Paul they are just your opinions.
In my life, I don t have to worry about none of this shit. I just know, somehow, that no one that I care about, will go to one of these programs, so long as I am alive. I trust myself to make sure of that, as sure as the sky is blue, without my having to do anything stupid, reccomend anything stupid, or cause harm to anyone.
Well bully for you. Remember though have at least some facts of the situation.
Paul St. John
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But Paul, by your own admittance you don’t see this treatment as being effective for anyone. So your point of view is biased and could put people in danger.
My point of view is not biased. it is defined. There is a difference. If we assume that I am biased, we are assuming that your point of view is reality, and mine is arbitrary. We haven t determined this, Whooter
We don’t have the whole history of Morgan and her family.
We don't Whooter.. but a lot of times, things just are what they seem. Even if we don t know the specifics, I think we got enough information, to be pretty confident with workable generalizations, and even if not, nothing is lost for me, because the only thing I ever told the girl, is to be strong regardless of the outcome. I don t think that there is any danger in being strong.
A third party should be involved to determine if residential treatment is needed.
Honestly, I think it is better off in the hands of the parents then a third party. To me, that is like a double wrong.
Also, any program that operates with integrity should themselves turn down a child who does not require treatment. You would expect it of a contractor, or a mechanic, or a surgeon, so why not a program?
There is this desperation to avoid a program at “all costs” here on fornits (even if it means hurting a 15 year old girl, we have seen this happen) when we know there are good programs out there and they can be very effective.
I don't think anyone here is motivated by the idea of hurting a person. Even those who are misguided are trying to protect against a child being hurt. You have never been a kid in a program. You do not know what it is like. Like I said, no one I care about will end up in one. My loved ones value their individuality, and I will not see it attacked.. I have seen too much in my life. I understand how this shit works.. It is not necessary for most, if any
Thousands of kids go through them each year without getting hurt and up to 80% getting the help they need by their own accord.
This is all debatable.
Go back and look at the same situation only that the 15 year old girl is going off to receive Chemo. Would the same advice apply if I personally felt Chemo would do more harm than good. Should she bankrupt her family, stab her parents or commit a crime so that she goes to prison?
I never said that Morgan should do any of these things, but again, we are assuming that you are right in your analogies. You are assuming A. that the person has a life-threatening problem, and B. that programs are the cure.
Would we tell her to run away? Does the girl have a say at age 15 to determine if Chemo is the best route for her? Do the parents have a say? Am I doing good by stating that as long as I am alive no one that I am close to will ever receive Chemotherapy?
No, you wouldn t be. But I state again, that as long as I am alive, no one that I care about, will end up in a program. I know I am right. I know that you might not ever understand it, but I trust my heart and it works well for me.
Do we have the right to intercede in other families affairs to that level of involvement?
If I love someone I have the right to help them, and there is no logic or debate that matters beyond that statement, because if the situation were to present itself, all your logic would mean nothing, as I carry out exactly what I say, without any of the doomsday occurrences that those who might want to discourage me, might put forth.
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What I like most about these threads is that they think I'm somehow answerable to them, or their continuous posting of bullshit is somehow going to get me to stop.
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What I like most about these threads is that they think I'm somehow answerable to them, or their continuous posting of bullshit is somehow going to get me to stop.
I don't. I disagree with what you did, and I don t give a fuck what you have to say about it.
Danny says I enable you. I have almost nothing to do with you. You are fully autonomous. You do not need my enabling.
Paul St. John
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I went off on a tangent there, but I would say that in her situation, there might be some who would be better off running away. I am basing this on my memories and experiences from when I was a child. Today I would never consider giving that as advice though. (hence, my being conflicted)
Terrible advice and I don't believe it for a minute, this talk is for your buddies. Get real Paul.
Danny B., or Danny A, or Danny C., or whichever of the other two Danny's.
I am not writing anything for my "buddies". That's not what I do. You don't know me, and you d prefer to think that it is impossible for anyone to have integrity.
For the record, most of the posters here, I hardly even know. Your illusion about this whole buddy-group, comes from your desire to find inclusion. Here's a hint, danny.. It doesn t exist, so you don t have to worry about being excluded anymore.
That shit was the worst fucking experience of my life. I went through hell in that place. For some people, running away may be better.. That s all I said.
Paul
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Honestly, I think it is better off in the hands of the parents then a third party. To me, that is like a double wrong.
Also, any program that operates with integrity should themselves turn down a child who does not require treatment. You would expect it of a contractor, or a mechanic, or a surgeon, so why not a program?
We know that programs will turn kids away who will not benefit from their model or who would be better off someplace else. But there are still those programs out there who will take any kid to fill an extra bed.
If third party sign-off were required this would eliminate the placement of kids who don’t need to be placed.
No, you wouldn t be. But I state again, that as long as I am alive, no one that I care about, will end up in a program. I know I am right. I know that you might not ever understand it, but I trust my heart and it works well for me.
I understand how you feel. I have debated people on both sides of the abortion issue and both feel in their hearts they are right. But I have seen kids who benefit from programs and the studies which are emerging support that the majority of kids are helped. Your experience doesn’t represent all programs.
If I love someone I have the right to help them, and there is no logic or debate that matters beyond that statement, because if the situation were to present itself, all your logic would mean nothing, as I carry out exactly what I say, without any of the doomsday occurrences that those who might want to discourage me, might put forth.
I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated. Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry. There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother. They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have. Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others. But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.
As an aside: I think you do enable PODK. You think more alike than you know or maybe are willing to admit.
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I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated. Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry. There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother. They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have. Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others. But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.
You are comparing me to this?
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I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated. Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry. There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother. They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have. Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others. But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.
You are comparing me to this?
You have admitted that you have closed the door on getting someone you loved the help they needed if it meant residential treatment.
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"Paul St. John" wrote:
This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms.
The only threats I here around here are from Danny, and he is of your point of view.
Paul, this is a hell of a accusation, please back it up. Yes we have slammed folks pretty hard for their crap here but they deserved it. We have never threatened any one with violence or harassment intentionally or un-intentionally.
Ever!!!!!!!!!!!
Though "you" have and then came to your senses.
Now, don't run to fast. If you were to find posts from Danny Bennison, you will see I was threatened repetitively, had my house shown, my picture shown, excused of being other people, called at all hours of the night, received threatening letters and on and on.
We were on the Elan Alum site prior to coming here and if Wayne got honest along with others you would know we left there to come here because of the abuse.
Paul, we had just had enough of the wholesale condemnation because are views are different. We were pounded every time we posted. Just ask Mark.
Let's check it out:
Ursus, Che Gookin, DJ, Froderik, Eliscu, the Reporter, JOM, Samara, Inculcated, SEKTO, Oz Girl, Anne Bonney, Psy, Ginger, Pile, Nihilanthic, Awake, myself ( other then the time I offered Danny the opportunity to realize his threats)
Che, DJ, Eliscu, Inculcated, Sekto, Ginger, Anne, Pile, Niles, and yourself have all insinuated or out and out threatened me. Go back and look, you will find the posts.
Otherwise Paul, please don't put yourself in the company of Inculcate, Sekto, Froderik, Psy, Samara, Oz Girl, Awake, Ursus, JOM, The Reporter, Che and Ginger because you don't even come close.
Yes we have some who we have had differences with and it came to some very unkind words and insinuated threats but these are stand up people with a quality of honesty that is unshakable.
Now, DJ, Eliscu, Anne, Niles, Piles and yourself form your own crew of deviates. You will stoop to any level to make a point as you are doing here.
"You offered me the time to realize my threats", Paul your silly boy who plays with very serious men. You had your opportunity and "You" chose not to realize it. Man to Man we both know that, so stop playing up to the crowd.
Show me where any of these people threatened anybody for being pro-program. The truth is that the majority of the people here are very peaceful, and too intelligent to have the need to resort to violence.
Paul St. John
Paul where are you right now, are you here on fornits. Everybody you have mentioned is out of this conversation waiting for Danny, Suck-It and Whooter to go away, as Ginger quoted once, "there doing the Che" if they ignore us we will go away. NNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnoooooot. We are not going anywhere so I hope y'all have a nice long vacation. Dual opinions can happen here in a civilized manner.
Now your crew on the other hand continues to attack, read how DJ talks to Whooter , Pile talks to Suck IT and you talk to me.
Not good Paul.
Before this freeze out they were attacking left and right in there low level sarcastic demeaning way, which you (Paul) find to be perfectly peaceful and just so intelligent.
Paul you really don't read anything before you open your mouth do you. (Now that would be considered a un-peaceful comment to you). Problem is, it is the truth. You are very ignorant to what happens here.
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I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated. Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry. There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother. They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have. Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others. But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.
You are comparing me to this?
You have admitted that you have closed the door on getting someone you loved the help they needed if it meant residential treatment.
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Are you really this dense or are you trying to manipulate me?
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Just to hit the reset button here, the "help" Whooter is talking about is highly dis-recommended by the government (including the GAO and FTC), consists of many months, sometimes years, of complete isolation from the outside world, and involves abusive practices such as sexualized roleplay, forced marches, sleep deprivation, occasional physical abuse when they can get away with it, intentionally turning parents against their own children, and various group activities involving teenage girls forced to divulge or make up experiences to total strangers, under threat of even more punishment. This is the "therapy" that's referred to on this board. Many of these places have been closed by local government authorities and are illegal in some jurisdictions, so they move to places such as Utah where regulation is nonexistent.
I'm sorry, was that too much reality for this thread?
Carry on.
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"Paul St. John" wrote:
This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms.
The only threats I here around here are from Danny, and he is of your point of view.
Paul, this is a hell of a accusation, please back it up. Yes we have slammed folks pretty hard for their crap here but they deserved it. We have never threatened any one with violence or harassment intentionally or un-intentionally.
Ever!!!!!!!!!!!
Though "you" have and then came to your senses.
Now, don't run to fast. If you were to find posts from Danny Bennison, you will see I was threatened repetitively, had my house shown, my picture shown, excused of being other people, called at all hours of the night, received threatening letters and on and on.
We were on the Elan Alum site prior to coming here and if Wayne got honest along with others you would know we left there to come here because of the abuse.
Paul, we had just had enough of the wholesale condemnation because are views are different. We were pounded every time we posted. Just ask Mark.
Let's check it out:
Ursus, Che Gookin, DJ, Froderik, Eliscu, the Reporter, JOM, Samara, Inculcated, SEKTO, Oz Girl, Anne Bonney, Psy, Ginger, Pile, Nihilanthic, Awake, myself ( other then the time I offered Danny the opportunity to realize his threats)
Che, DJ, Eliscu, Inculcated, Sekto, Ginger, Anne, Pile, Niles, and yourself have all insinuated or out and out threatened me. Go back and look, you will find the posts.
Otherwise Paul, please don't put yourself in the company of Inculcate, Sekto, Froderik, Psy, Samara, Oz Girl, Awake, Ursus, JOM, The Reporter, Che and Ginger because you don't even come close.
Yes we have some who we have had differences with and it came to some very unkind words and insinuated threats but these are stand up people with a quality of honesty that is unshakable.
Now, DJ, Eliscu, Anne, Niles, Piles and yourself form your own crew of deviates. You will stoop to any level to make a point as you are doing here.
You are not hurting me Danny. I know who I am.. I also know who you are.
"You offered me the time to realize my threats", Paul your silly boy who plays with very serious men. You had your opportunity and "You" chose not to realize it. Man to Man we both know that, so stop playing up to the crowd
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I shoulda taped the phone conversation.. You pussy fuck.
Show me where any of these people threatened anybody for being pro-program. The truth is that the majority of the people here are very peaceful, and too intelligent to have the need to resort to violence.
Paul St. John
====================================Paul where are you right now, are you here on fornits. Everybody you have mentioned is out of this conversation waiting for Danny, Suck-It and Whooter to go away, as Ginger quoted once, "there doing the Che" if they ignore us we will go away. NNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnoooooot. We are not going anywhere so I hope y'all have a nice long vacation. Dual opinions can happen here in a civilized manner.
Now your crew on the other hand continues to attack, read how DJ talks to Whooter , Pile talks to Suck IT and you talk to me.
Not good Paul.===========================
Are you trying to make some kind of point here? Perhaps, you can clarify it for slow people like me.
Before this freeze out they were attacking left and right in there low level sarcastic demeaning way, which you (Paul) find to be perfectly peaceful and just so intelligent.
Paul you really don't read anything before you open your mouth do you. (Now that would be considered a un-peaceful comment to you). Problem is, it is the truth. You are very ignorant to what happens here.
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I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated. Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry. There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother. They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have. Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others. But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.
You are comparing me to this?
You have admitted that you have closed the door on getting someone you loved the help they needed if it meant residential treatment.
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Are you really this dense or are you trying to manipulate me?
Look, Paul,I dont manipulate. Its a discussion. If you really feel that "all" residential treatment programs harm "all" the kids and not one child has ever benefited form their stay there then you can join the posters here like Anne Bonney, DJ, Dead kids,Niles etc.. I think you know you are on the fringe if you truly believe this in light of the studies that have been done and lack of evidence that tens of thousands of kids are harmed each year and no one ever reports it.
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Whooter, if you cannot trust yourself to take care of your own, that s your problem bro.
The fact that I have confidence in myself and those that I care about does not put me anywhere near the level of a pro-life doctor killer.
Also, you betray, in your response that you were being manipulative because were asking me to answer a question based on premises that I have not accepted.
( and in your response, you acknowledge it)
Paul
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"Paul St. John" wrote:
This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms.
The only threats I here around here are from Danny, and he is of your point of view.
Paul, this is a hell of a accusation, please back it up. Yes we have slammed folks pretty hard for their crap here but they deserved it. We have never threatened any one with violence or harassment intentionally or un-intentionally.
Ever!!!!!!!!!!!
Though "you" have and then came to your senses.
Now, don't run to fast. If you were to find posts from Danny Bennison, you will see I was threatened repetitively, had my house shown, my picture shown, excused of being other people, called at all hours of the night, received threatening letters and on and on.
We were on the Elan Alum site prior to coming here and if Wayne got honest along with others you would know we left there to come here because of the abuse.
Paul, we had just had enough of the wholesale condemnation because are views are different. We were pounded every time we posted. Just ask Mark.
Let's check it out:
Ursus, Che Gookin, DJ, Froderik, Eliscu, the Reporter, JOM, Samara, Inculcated, SEKTO, Oz Girl, Anne Bonney, Psy, Ginger, Pile, Nihilanthic, Awake, myself ( other then the time I offered Danny the opportunity to realize his threats)
Che, DJ, Eliscu, Inculcated, Sekto, Ginger, Anne, Pile, Niles, and yourself have all insinuated or out and out threatened me. Go back and look, you will find the posts.
Otherwise Paul, please don't put yourself in the company of Inculcate, Sekto, Froderik, Psy, Samara, Oz Girl, Awake, Ursus, JOM, The Reporter, Che and Ginger because you don't even come close.
Yes we have some who we have had differences with and it came to some very unkind words and insinuated threats but these are stand up people with a quality of honesty that is unshakable.
Now, DJ, Eliscu, Anne, Niles, Piles and yourself form your own crew of deviates. You will stoop to any level to make a point as you are doing here.
You are not hurting me Danny. I know who I am.. I also know who you are.
Well if you know who I am then you would stop characterizing me in the way you do.
"You offered me the time to realize my threats", Paul your silly boy who plays with very serious men. You had your opportunity and "You" chose not to realize it. Man to Man we both know that, so stop playing up to the crowd.
I shoulda taped the phone conversation.. You pussy fuck.
This is Paul, when Paul is busted. He calls me names and threatens me.
Show me where any of these people threatened anybody for being pro-program. The truth is that the majority of the people here are very peaceful, and too intelligent to have the need to resort to violence.
Paul St. John
====================================Paul where are you right now, are you here on fornits. Everybody you have mentioned is out of this conversation waiting for Danny, Suck-It and Whooter to go away, as Ginger quoted once, "there doing the Che" if they ignore us we will go away. NNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnoooooot. We are not going anywhere so I hope y'all have a nice long vacation. Dual opinions can happen here in a civilized manner.
Now your crew on the other hand continues to attack, read how DJ talks to Whooter , Pile talks to Suck IT and you talk to me.
Not good Paul.===========================
Are you trying to make some kind of point here? Perhaps, you can clarify it for slow people like me.
No, I can't slow down enough to help you. Plus you have it all figured out.
Before this freeze out they were attacking left and right in there low level sarcastic demeaning way, which you (Paul) find to be perfectly peaceful and just so intelligent.
Paul you really don't read anything before you open your mouth do you. (Now that would be considered a un-peaceful comment to you). Problem is, it is the truth. You are very ignorant to what happens here.
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Whooter, if you cannot trust yourself to take care of your own, that s your problem bro.
Sorry you see it that way. Sometimes parents need to get help outside the family. Its a big step to accept that we might not have all the answers.
The fact that I have confidence in myself and those that I care about does not put me anywhere near the level of a pro-life doctor killer.
Confidence has nothing to do with it. A guy can be confident that that his sister doesn't need Chemotherapy and therefore escapes society, hides her in the woods for 2 years until she dies. You need to continually learn new things and keep your mind open to the changing world. Put your own biases aside and open your mind to emerging information.
Also, you betray, in your response that you were being manipulative because were asking me to answer a question based on premises that I have not accepted.
( and in your response, you acknowledge it)
Paul
I guess I missed that. I reread the posts and don't see how I have tried to manipulate you. Can you point it out?
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This is Paul, when Paul is busted. He calls me names and threatens me.
I threatened to go back into the past and tape a phone conversation.
Danny, there is not a single poster at this site, who does not know how you roll, so why not drop the show.
It's as thin as gas.
Paul
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be back in an hour..
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Whooter, if you cannot trust yourself to take care of your own, that s your problem bro.
The fact that I have confidence in myself and those that I care about does not put me anywhere near the level of a pro-life doctor killer.
Also, you betray, in your response that you were being manipulative because were asking me to answer a question based on premises that I have not accepted.
( and in your response, you acknowledge it)
Paul
Paul,
Your having a conversation with a parent that has experienced a circumstance you really internally have no experience to elaborate about.
Your not defining yourself here, you are in a lab (so to speak) theorizing what you would do under similar circumstances based upon your own experiences (being a subject), very complex to say the least.
One is "defined" after the fact based upon real actions. Not theoretics.
I believe that your experience in Daytop was horrible for you, as you have said. I also think that there are multiple factors of where "all" this manifested hostility towards Daytop/TTI is coming from.
See I think that many here were having big time problems at home with the parents and upon being sent to the various programs found a source of authority that pushed back unlike how their parents did it. They/we found that we could not pull the shit we were pulling at home (right or wrong), some of us were so pissed off because it appeared our parents or society had won. We were misunderstood and no one was listening.
The problem was the "reactions" we were having because of this confusion. Society and are ignorant parents were dealing with our reactions, example drugs, skipping school, belligerence, criminal activity ect.....
I just think this is something that needs to be looked at also.
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This is Paul, when Paul is busted. He calls me names and threatens me.
I threatened to go back into the past and tape a phone conversation.
Danny, there is not a single poster at this site, who does not know how you roll, so why not drop the show.
It's as thin as gas.
Paul
I think you left this out, "You pussy fuck".
Paul, your right, "there are a lot of posters that know how we roll". This reputation was built upon a lot of sweat and abuse over the last 9 months. We are very proud of it and I'm sure in time will resonate with the mass here.
All relationships go through periods of time when they are confusing but over time if you are honest your character will stand.
Paul, like I said to you on the phone, this is a Web Site conversations/comments can be misunderstood easily, most of the folks that use my (user name) where having fun, busting balls with folks who harassed us/me continuously. I'm sorry they could dish it out but not take it. Some of these posters got down right personal long before we did.
In time you'll see and if you don't, your lose.
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Confidence has nothing to do with it. A guy can be confident that that his sister doesn't need Chemotherapy and therefore escapes society, hides her in the woods for 2 years until she dies. You need to continually learn new things and keep your mind open to the changing world. Put your own biases aside and open your mind to emerging information.
Whooter, I have nothing more to discuss with you. You keep making these comparisons of me that are not even close to who I am.
You are biased Whooter. I don't care what you say. You seek to promote programs, for whatever motive.
I would not need to hide anyone in the woods Whooter. I just feel like I am talking to an idiot.
I made a mistake.. I admitted that I was conflicted. I admitted that I had uncertainty. I did it in a hostile environment. You saw it, and went in for the kill.
Danny, felt that I was on the defense, and so he grew enough balls to start conversing with me again, with of course, your help.
Paul St. John
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Whooter, if you cannot trust yourself to take care of your own, that s your problem bro.
The fact that I have confidence in myself and those that I care about does not put me anywhere near the level of a pro-life doctor killer.
Also, you betray, in your response that you were being manipulative because were asking me to answer a question based on premises that I have not accepted.
( and in your response, you acknowledge it)
Paul
Paul,
Your having a conversation with a parent that has experienced a circumstance you really internally have no experience to elaborate about.
Your not defining yourself here, you are in a lab (so to speak) theorizing what you would do under similar circumstances based upon your own experiences (being a subject), very complex to say the least.
This is why I don t like you Danny. This is why I know you have to go. Fornits is not a lab for you and your idiot friends. Your hat of tricks has no bottom. Do you ever get bored with yourself?
One is "defined" after the fact based upon real actions. Not theoretics.
You don t even know what you are talking about Danny. Whooter is telling me that my veiwpoint is biased. I am telling him that just because I have an opinion that is defined, does not make me biased, until he can demonstrate that it is wrong. It is a concept that I build on. It is my judgement.
I believe that your experience in Daytop was horrible for you, as you have said. I also think that there are multiple factors of where "all" this manifested hostility towards Daytop/TTI is coming from.
See I think that many here were having big time problems at home with the parents and upon being sent to the various programs found a source of authority that pushed back unlike how their parents did it. They/we found that we could not pull the shit we were pulling at home (right or wrong), some of us were so pissed off because it appeared our parents or society had won. We were misunderstood and no one was listening.
The problem was the "reactions" we were having because of this confusion. Society and are ignorant parents were dealing with our reactions, example drugs, skipping school, belligerence, criminal activity ect.....
I just think this is something that needs to be looked at also.
Danny, I know what I experienced. I did not act out, and they pushed back.. Nor did Elan do that to you. You show them in a better light then they deserve. It's hard to believe what I am reading some times.
Paul St. John
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This is Paul, when Paul is busted. He calls me names and threatens me.
I threatened to go back into the past and tape a phone conversation.
Danny, there is not a single poster at this site, who does not know how you roll, so why not drop the show.
It's as thin as gas.
Paul
I think you left this out, "You pussy fuck".
I don t think anyone missed it Danny.. That is where I called you names. My threat on the other hand was to go back time and tape a phone conversation. I think you should alert athorities.... or perhaps, Morgan's parents can sue me for threatening you.
Paul, your right, "there are a lot of posters that know how we roll". This reputation was built upon a lot of sweat and abuse over the last 9 months. We are very proud of it and I'm sure in time will resonate with the mass here.
It won't. It's went about as far as it's gonna go.
All relationships go through periods of time when they are confusing but over time if you are honest your character will stand.
Paul, like I said to you on the phone, this is a Web Site conversations/comments can be misunderstood easily, most of the folks that use my (user name) where having fun, busting balls with folks who harassed us/me continuously. I'm sorry they could dish it out but not take it. Some of these posters got down right personal long before we did.
In time you'll see and if you don't, your lose.
There is nothing to see Danny. You and your's are false.
First, you try to convince a person that A is not A.
If he gets pass that, and demonstrates that it is....
Then you attack the person for having the gall to selfishly pronounce that A is A.
I've seen all this shit before.
You want to run fornits. You want to be the authority here. You try to act all nice, but when you are opposed, you become a maniac. If that doesn t work, you start telling everyone you love them, like a husband, who just beat his wife.
Much like that husband, you need Fornits, but it doesn t need you.
Paul St. John
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Confidence has nothing to do with it. A guy can be confident that that his sister doesn't need Chemotherapy and therefore escapes society, hides her in the woods for 2 years until she dies. You need to continually learn new things and keep your mind open to the changing world. Put your own biases aside and open your mind to emerging information.
Whooter, I have nothing more to discuss with you. You keep making these comparisons of me that are not even close to who I am.
You are biased Whooter. I don't care what you say. You seek to promote programs, for whatever motive.
I would not need to hide anyone in the woods Whooter. I just feel like I am talking to an idiot.
I made a mistake.. I admitted that I was conflicted. I admitted that I had uncertainty. I did it in a hostile environment. You saw it, and went in for the kill.
Danny, felt that I was on the defense, and so he grew enough balls to start conversing with me again, with of course, your help.
Paul St. John
Look, Paul, I am not sure what you are talking about. I didnt compare you to anyone. You have made up your mind, like you said, and you are not open to any more discussion. That is fine.
I never talked to Danny to help him with your discussion. I dont even understand what you are talking about with the hostile environment or admitting to anything. I think you may be confusing posts.
Anyone who has read my posts knows that I view both sides of the issue and keep an open mind.. (we are all biased from our own experiences) but we should keep the door open to new information and not be closed minded.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Joel, I also know who you are...
For the most part, you are alright by me, but I am not here to entertain you.
Paul St. John
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What I like most about these threads is that they think I'm somehow answerable to them, or their continuous posting of bullshit is somehow going to get me to stop.
I don't. I disagree with what you did, and I don t give a fuck what you have to say about it.
Danny says I enable you. I have almost nothing to do with you. You are fully autonomous. You do not need my enabling.
Paul St. John
Wink, Wink, giggle, giggle....... ::) ;) :)
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I would also like to add. These threads I post are an attempt to explain the extreme advice given by the people I talked about earlier. I thought maybe they were "trolls" or in other words just joking about their advice, but after observing it appears they actually believe what they are saying. Does nobody else find it strange somebody could actually believe in their own mind, that murdering someone, sending yourself to jail, running away, bankrupting your own family, is somehow better than just going to a treatment center with no history of abuse?
I admit that I am conflicted here. I do find it crazy recommend to a 15 year old girl that she murder someone, opt for jail, run away , or bankrupt her family. That is my initial reaction. I find those ideas crazy, and I want nothing to do with them.
Then there is this other bottom-line logic that someone like Pile can no doubt rouse up in me.
- If you are being forced to go somewhere, against your will, that you perceive to be a threat, do you have the right to defend yourself, even to the point, of ending the life, of another(the person applying force to you), if it became absolutely necessary? Although, it would probably not put you in a good place in society, and strategically would be a stupid move, is it morally wrong?
( I don't want to get into too much detail, because the lives of people I know are no one here's business, unless they wanted to talk about them, but as vague, as I can be, growing up, I had a friend, who was a really good guy. He left one morning to go on a family vacation, that really wasn t. One minute he is sitting in his car, excited about his destination, the next he si surrounded by a bunch of cultist-fucks, trying to physically force him, into their "family-school". He tried to defend himself with a baseball bat, and it's worth mentioning he was a peaceful guy.
I don't know... as adults, you view things differently- more practical.. but as a kid, 17 years ago, I was proud of him. He was defending himself. He had problems, but everybody did. It was part of growing up.)
-Now, the jail-thing... For Morgan, No! I would definitely not recommend jail. I think she would be better off floating her way through the program, but I do know of people who opted for jail, over going back to Daytop, which wasn t really nearly as bad as some other places, and afterwards, they were really glad they did it.
Running away- again, not for Morgan.. but perhaps for some, in her situation.. We gotta remember here. They didn t give her any outs. They told her that if she did this, and that, she didn t have to go, but when she agreed, she still had to go no matter what. dad was willing to keep his promise, but mom had made her mind up long ago... And it s also worth mentioning here, that while I strongly disagree with what Pile did, with the posting of the info and such, I don t disagree that the parents are assholes, and the things that I learned from what he posted, only confirmed that further for me. I am not gonna jump on Danny B's boat about "Parent Abuse". Adults can take care of themselves, which is clearly demonstrated by how people deal with his attacks. When I saw the pics of Morgan's mom, I asked myself, "and what program shall we send this one too?"
My opinion based on what I saw, is that she wants her "troubled" daughter out of the way, so she has less impediments to pursue her own troubles.
I went off on a tangent there, but I would say that in her situation, there might be some who would be better off running away. I am basing this on my memories and experiences from when I was a child. Today I would never consider giving that as advice though. (hence, my being conflicted)
Bankrupting your own family to avoid going? I gotta admit it sounds really fucked up, and selfiish to me..
But now let's say you are a kid, and don t want to be shipped off. Your parents are sending you away with little regard, or any curiosity about how you feel about it. We all spoke to Morgan. She was a very intelligent, mature young woman. We are not talking about a girl getting high on drugs, inflicting harm against herself, a pyro -maniac, or any other shit. What is her best defense? Her family has turned her back on her, is it morally wrong for her to attempt to bankrupt her family for protection from them? I don t know.. She would only be trying to defend herself.. I wouldn t offer it as advice, because in the end, she will only be making more problems for herself. It is a dumb silly idea. DJ is silly. It is ashame too. because if he matured a bit, he could be very effective.
In my life, I don t have to worry about none of this shit. I just know, somehow, that no one that I care about, will go to one of these programs, so long as I am alive. I trust myself to make sure of that, as sure as the sky is blue, without my having to do anything stupid, reccomend anything stupid, or cause harm to anyone.
Paul St. John
Ah, thanks for this.
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You have what, a week left? Use it wisely.
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More than that, thanks.
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Well that's interesting. Programs are not known for getting in bodies any later than they have to.
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Not up to them.
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*shrug* Injustice delayed is injustice denied. Not going to ask for details unless you really want to post them.
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It's coming, but it got pushed back.
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Meaning that your dad doesn't actually want to do it.
You do know that the moment he sends you off is the moment me and Niles just pull out all the stops, right? No, you can't talk us out of it. No, we're not going to harass or threaten anybody; we have no intention of contacting the same person more than once, and no intention of contacting your parents at all. Heh. They can be the last to know.
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Meaning that your dad doesn't actually want to do it.
You do know that the moment he sends you off is the moment me and Niles just pull out all the stops, right? No, you can't talk us out of it. No, we're not going to harass or threaten anybody; we have no intention of contacting the same person more than once, and no intention of contacting your parents at all. Heh. They can be the last to know.
"Pull out all the stops"? Explain it, or continue to sound like a creepy little boy trying to scare people into getting wrapped up in his lies.
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Letters, emails, and maybe a couple phone calls. That's as specific as I'll get. No falsehoods, no exaggerations.
You can determine what's truth and what's lies. But this (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30887) happened. So did this (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27777).
And this list of names in my sig is from the news, not thin air.
Oh well. I guess I'll just have to save the "Told you so" for much later.
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I wasn't lying, is the weird thing. You should kinda know that.
Hell, you admitted how stupid the staff were and how fucked up the kids there looked yourself. Daddy too.
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It's coming, but it got pushed back.
Glad to hear that you're still around (having not been sent away yet). Here's hoping that it'll last!
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Thanks Ursus.
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It's coming, but it got pushed back.
Glad to hear that you're still around (having not been sent away yet). Here's hoping that it'll last!
Same here, take the time to find the escaper's guide while you still can. Might come in handy for you.
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It's coming, but it got pushed back.
Glad to hear that you're still around (having not been sent away yet). Here's hoping that it'll last!
Same here, take the time to find the escaper's guide while you still can. Might come in handy for you.
Will do.
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Gookin, you could have been kind enough to provide a link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27271&p=329506#p329506).
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Gookin, you could have been kind enough to provide a link (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27271&p=329506#p329506).
Thank you.
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Running away will only make things worse. I know, because I did it. The escape guides and all that posted on fornits are nothing but fantasy fiction. Not much can be done to keep parents from sending kids to treatment, especially from an internet forum. To release some of this frustration, people imagine and come up with exciting ways to escape programs, to fight their captors and/or manipulate their parents and staff to get released early, or to "prevent brainwashing". In the end, these actions will, in fact, only make things worse for the person listening to and acting on this advice.
If you run away, you will instantly prove that you needed to be there. Why? Because you are willing to risk your life despite the obvious consequences of being a teenager on the run in unknown territory with no help. This screams, "I don't care about my life". From the perspective of parents and programs, running away is your fastest ticket to a longer and more intense stay. I'd avoid it at all costs. When I tried, not only did I get punished and lost a lot of privileges I had been granted, but it made my parents and the program even more adamant that I stay and work on myself. So I would never suggest a kid run from a program. Double that when talking about a girl, especially one as young as 15. Being alone on the street is much more dangerous than being in a program, sorry but this is a fact. You think programs are abusive? Wait till you meet some of the psychos on the street who will gladly "save you from the program", and then do God knows what.
I'm bothered by the bad information passed off here as advice. I probably wouldn't say anything if the advice was being directed at a 16, or 17 year old boy. Even then, it's dangerous. But a 15 year old girl? This advice to run away is suicidal. The fact the program being discussed has no history of abuse and not mentioned on fornits means something. There is a reason not one kid that went there has made a post on the internet about it being abusive, most likely it is not. Brainwashed can sound like a scary word to someone who never experienced programs. Fornits is adept at scare tactics, I'll give them that. But I went to supposedly one of the worst programs there are, and I was never brainwashed. I actually left feeling bitter. It took some maturity and time to figure out for myself how I truly felt long after the experienced had passed.
I think this advice being posted in fornits group think thread is not a coincidence. The way information can be distorted and adopted as truth here is shocking. Giving advice to a young teenage girl to run away from a program is simply bad advice, irresponsible and could result in tragedy. Would the people here feel bad if a young teenage kid followed the advice, and was hurt, kidnapped, or killed as a result? Or would it be another feather in their cap, a win, because at least the program didn't get them? I don't know what kind of games people are playing here, but sometimes it's downright dangerous.
The good thing is, most kids going to programs never find fornits. So they go into programs without preconceptions about how bad it is going to be, and get to experience it for what it is, not what they expect it to be. Although, imaging a program to be as evil as some here would suggest, only to arrive to find it filled with caring staff and friendly peers might give a sigh of relief to the person experiencing it, I suppose that is the silver lining to all of this.
Think about it. Where will you go if you run from a program? Will you hitchhike home? Will you stay on the lamb for three long years until an adult? Is it worth the chance that the person picking you up hitchhiking isn't dangerous and have ulterior motives for doing so? Speaking of numbers, it's a fact teenage runaways living on the street, particular young girls, have a much higher chance of being abused, exploited, raped or killed than in a treatment center with no history of abuse. This is common sense, like saying the sky is blue. Just because people on fornits are saying the sky is red, doesn't make it so.
It can be fun to try to live vicariously through teenagers today facing programs, and tell them advice we wished we might have followed ourselves. But doing so is irresponsible, and they, not we, have to live with the consequences of following such dangerous advice. I think everyone needs to take a step back and realize this is a 15 year old girl you are talking to. She is facing a treatment program that has no history of abuse. How many people giving this advice have spent nights as a runaway alone on the street? Do they really know what it's like? I have. I would never, in a million years, suggest that 15 year old girl runaway from a warm bed and safety, and their new friends. To do so would be irresponsible, and taking advantage of a young person's naivety and ignorance to the dangers of the real world, and ignoring the fact that many programs are safe and effective.
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Except for these people (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6570).
And Tom Riley, who vanished from CALO in his grandmother's car and was, AFAIK, never seen again- at least not until after he turned 18.
And Jen Michael, who successfully got out of CALO and whose parents were actually sued by Ken Huey (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=29809) for not bringing her back.
And the three girls who beat their tormentor up with a frying pan and tied her up (not a joke!) before getting away in her car. This Moab, Utah program was run by two people, and they got out of it after that. :rofl:
And the kid who pretended to go along before beating a staffer's fucking face in with a toilet lid (Great weapon choice there!). Kid was pulled, staffer quit his job.
And a shitload of other examples I can't be arsed to mention.
Can you get your hands on something sharp? Something heavy and solid? Can you wait until their back is turned? Voila. You have a way out. Use it.
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Running away will only make things worse. I know, because I did it. The escape guides and all that posted on fornits are nothing but fantasy fiction. Not much can be done to keep parents from sending kids to treatment, especially from an internet forum. To release some of this frustration, people imagine and come up with exciting ways to escape programs, to fight their captors and/or manipulate their parents and staff to get released early, or to "prevent brainwashing". In the end, these actions will, in fact, only make things worse for the person listening to and acting on this advice.
If you run away, you will instantly prove that you needed to be there. Why? Because you are willing to risk your life despite the obvious consequences of being a teenager on the run in unknown territory with no help. This screams, "I don't care about my life". From the perspective of parents and programs, running away is your fastest ticket to a longer and more intense stay. I'd avoid it at all costs. When I tried, not only did I get punished and lost a lot of privileges I had been granted, but it made my parents and the program even more adamant that I stay and work on myself. So I would never suggest a kid run from a program. Double that when talking about a girl, especially one as young as 15. Being alone on the street is much more dangerous than being in a program, sorry but this is a fact. You think programs are abusive? Wait till you meet some of the psychos on the street who will gladly "save you from the program", and then do God knows what.
I'm bothered by the bad information passed off here as advice. I probably wouldn't say anything if the advice was being directed at a 16, or 17 year old boy. Even then, it's dangerous. But a 15 year old girl? This advice to run away is suicidal. The fact the program being discussed has no history of abuse and not mentioned on fornits means something. There is a reason not one kid that went there has made a post on the internet about it being abusive, most likely it is not. Brainwashed can sound like a scary word to someone who never experienced programs. Fornits is adept at scare tactics, I'll give them that. But I went to supposedly one of the worst programs there are, and I was never brainwashed. I actually left feeling bitter. It took some maturity and time to figure out for myself how I truly felt long after the experienced had passed.
I think this advice being posted in fornits group think thread is not a coincidence. The way information can be distorted and adopted as truth here is shocking. Giving advice to a young teenage girl to run away from a program is simply bad advice, irresponsible and could result in tragedy. Would the people here feel bad if a young teenage kid followed the advice, and was hurt, kidnapped, or killed as a result? Or would it be another feather in their cap, a win, because at least the program didn't get them? I don't know what kind of games people are playing here, but sometimes it's downright dangerous.
The good thing is, most kids going to programs never find fornits. So they go into programs without preconceptions about how bad it is going to be, and get to experience it for what it is, not what they expect it to be. Although, imaging a program to be as evil as some here would suggest, only to arrive to find it filled with caring staff and friendly peers might give a sigh of relief to the person experiencing it, I suppose that is the silver lining to all of this.
Think about it. Where will you go if you run from a program? Will you hitchhike home? Will you stay on the lamb for three long years until an adult? Is it worth the chance that the person picking you up hitchhiking isn't dangerous and have ulterior motives for doing so? Speaking of numbers, it's a fact teenage runaways living on the street, particular young girls, have a much higher chance of being abused, exploited, raped or killed than in a treatment center with no history of abuse. This is common sense, like saying the sky is blue. Just because people on fornits are saying the sky is red, doesn't make it so.
It can be fun to try to live vicariously through teenagers today facing programs, and tell them advice we wished we might have followed ourselves. But doing so is irresponsible, and they, not we, have to live with the consequences of following such dangerous advice. I think everyone needs to take a step back and realize this is a 15 year old girl you are talking to. She is facing a treatment program that has no history of abuse. How many people giving this advice have spent nights as a runaway alone on the street? Do they really know what it's like? I have. I would never, in a million years, suggest that 15 year old girl runaway from a warm bed and safety, and their new friends. To do so would be irresponsible, and taking advantage of a young person's naivety and ignorance to the dangers of the real world, and ignoring the fact that many programs are safe and effective.
Pure, unadulterated bullshit.
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Pile, why you post here is beyond me and others. I will speak for everyone here who went through a program, STFU and go the fuck away. Your a complete idiot. Morgan is not listening to you and probably never will, you are being patronized, dumbass.
As far as giving Morgan advice along the lines of running away from anywhere at 15 yrs. old, just makes my blood curdle. Peeps, I don't like this either especially since we have gotten to know her parents a little but still lets be responsible. Act as if this was your daughter in a situation, would you ask her to run away with no one there to pick her up.
I can only hope we don't have crazy zealots willing to pick her up with pre-arranged plans because this would turn into a federal kidnapping charge quick. She is a minor and her parents would not have consented.
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Neither have the spirit guides consented....
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Running away will only make things worse. I know, because I did it. The escape guides and all that posted on fornits are nothing but fantasy fiction. Not much can be done to keep parents from sending kids to treatment, especially from an internet forum. To release some of this frustration, people imagine and come up with exciting ways to escape programs, to fight their captors and/or manipulate their parents and staff to get released early, or to "prevent brainwashing". In the end, these actions will, in fact, only make things worse for the person listening to and acting on this advice.
If you run away, you will instantly prove that you needed to be there. Why? Because you are willing to risk your life despite the obvious consequences of being a teenager on the run in unknown territory with no help. This screams, "I don't care about my life". From the perspective of parents and programs, running away is your fastest ticket to a longer and more intense stay. I'd avoid it at all costs. When I tried, not only did I get punished and lost a lot of privileges I had been granted, but it made my parents and the program even more adamant that I stay and work on myself. So I would never suggest a kid run from a program. Double that when talking about a girl, especially one as young as 15. Being alone on the street is much more dangerous than being in a program, sorry but this is a fact. You think programs are abusive? Wait till you meet some of the psychos on the street who will gladly "save you from the program", and then do God knows what.
I'm bothered by the bad information passed off here as advice. I probably wouldn't say anything if the advice was being directed at a 16, or 17 year old boy. Even then, it's dangerous. But a 15 year old girl? This advice to run away is suicidal. The fact the program being discussed has no history of abuse and not mentioned on fornits means something. There is a reason not one kid that went there has made a post on the internet about it being abusive, most likely it is not. Brainwashed can sound like a scary word to someone who never experienced programs. Fornits is adept at scare tactics, I'll give them that. But I went to supposedly one of the worst programs there are, and I was never brainwashed. I actually left feeling bitter. It took some maturity and time to figure out for myself how I truly felt long after the experienced had passed.
I think this advice being posted in fornits group think thread is not a coincidence. The way information can be distorted and adopted as truth here is shocking. Giving advice to a young teenage girl to run away from a program is simply bad advice, irresponsible and could result in tragedy. Would the people here feel bad if a young teenage kid followed the advice, and was hurt, kidnapped, or killed as a result? Or would it be another feather in their cap, a win, because at least the program didn't get them? I don't know what kind of games people are playing here, but sometimes it's downright dangerous.
The good thing is, most kids going to programs never find fornits. So they go into programs without preconceptions about how bad it is going to be, and get to experience it for what it is, not what they expect it to be. Although, imaging a program to be as evil as some here would suggest, only to arrive to find it filled with caring staff and friendly peers might give a sigh of relief to the person experiencing it, I suppose that is the silver lining to all of this.
Think about it. Where will you go if you run from a program? Will you hitchhike home? Will you stay on the lamb for three long years until an adult? Is it worth the chance that the person picking you up hitchhiking isn't dangerous and have ulterior motives for doing so? Speaking of numbers, it's a fact teenage runaways living on the street, particular young girls, have a much higher chance of being abused, exploited, raped or killed than in a treatment center with no history of abuse. This is common sense, like saying the sky is blue. Just because people on fornits are saying the sky is red, doesn't make it so.
It can be fun to try to live vicariously through teenagers today facing programs, and tell them advice we wished we might have followed ourselves. But doing so is irresponsible, and they, not we, have to live with the consequences of following such dangerous advice. I think everyone needs to take a step back and realize this is a 15 year old girl you are talking to. She is facing a treatment program that has no history of abuse. How many people giving this advice have spent nights as a runaway alone on the street? Do they really know what it's like? I have. I would never, in a million years, suggest that 15 year old girl runaway from a warm bed and safety, and their new friends. To do so would be irresponsible, and taking advantage of a young person's naivety and ignorance to the dangers of the real world, and ignoring the fact that many programs are safe and effective.
Despite all the shit people throw at you, Thanks for this honest post.
It's the truth, most of it, anyway.
Pile, why you post here is beyond me and others. I will speak for everyone here who went through a program, STFU and go the fuck away. Your a complete idiot. Morgan is not listening to you and probably never will, you are being patronized, dumbass.
As far as giving Morgan advice along the lines of running away from anywhere at 15 yrs. old, just makes my blood curdle. Peeps, I don't like this either especially since we have gotten to know her parents a little but still lets be responsible. Act as if this was your daughter in a situation, would you ask her to run away with no one there to pick her up.
I can only hope we don't have crazy zealots willing to pick her up with pre-arranged plans because this would turn into a federal kidnapping charge quick. She is a minor and her parents would not have consented.
EXACTLY.
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The only optimal solution for Morgan is to either attend a normal boarding school which can match ambitions she have or live at relatives until her parents with the use of therapy has repaired the damaged relationship with Morgan.
Running away is not the answer in the US, because the authorities have decided to criminalize it. In Denmark where I live the police only locate the child so they can find out if the child is in danger. When the child is located it is up to the social services and the parents to bring them home. One of the more recent cases involves a boy and a girl who ran from a group home. The police knew where they were based on reports from people who have spotted them but they could not raid the particular home they suspected that the children was hiding in. When they finally returned the children to the group home some 2 months later it was revealed that the children had started a relationship with the children living at the house. The police is still thinking about raising charges against the parents of the children at the house. If there had not been children at the address they would have raided it. Interesting enough they returned when a local newspaper came into the case. What people don't do so they can be in the media.
Missing teens home again (http://http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=da&sl=da&tl=en&u=http://nordjyske.dk/jammerbugt/forside.aspx%3Fctrl%3D10%26data%3D26,3631696,5,3)
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I wouldn't run away from home, because it is fairly possible that you'll end up in front of a very unsympathetic judge and probably be sent to the program anyway. Further, you'll only cement the spirit guides agreement that you need to be programized. You really don't want the spirit guides or your parents against you. However, once at the program you have to keep running for it as an option.
Most kids bullshit their way through the program. These are the torture lite programs as I like to call them. They are the bud lite style program that are piss weak in comparison to the old school abusive pits. The majority of their swing is in the subtle, or not so subtle, mental manipulations that they run you through to gain your passivity. If you can bullshit your way through, if you can tolerate the time lost from the real world, and feel you can come out intact then give the bullshit option a whirl. Should the program prove to be an abusive pit, like so many have, then I seriously suggest running for it.
It is that or stay in an abusive hellhole.
Make your choice and live with it or not live at all as has happened to several kids in programs.