Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: marcwordsmith on August 31, 2005, 02:30:00 AM
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John, you wrote:
"Which brings me to allegations of physical abuse posted at this site. This was never acceptable or tolerated under any circumstances."
John, everybody knew that we were all deprived of sleep. Your statement above is silly. Remember the rule requiring us to shake each other awake, the rationale being sleeping Seedlings were only "trying to cop out of the rap"? Come on, John. I'll grant you that I for one was never beaten and never witnessed any of the extreme types of physical abuse testified to hereabouts, but sleep deprivation IS a well-known--possibly the very most basic--method of brainwashing.
As far as the other physical abuse is concerned,and the episodes that you, alas, couldn't have known about, I'd ask you to employ some of that rigorous self-honesty you so extol, and ask yourself whether or not The Seed created a ripe, condusive environment for such abuses to occur.
Last point: The Seed's notion of rigorous self-honesty was one-size-fits-all. Honesty was the first and most important rule, and the Seed told us what we should be thinking if we were to be honest. Again, can you not reexamine this premise today, and acknowledge that it may have been questionable?
What a shock to see you on this website! I check the page every month or two. I was in the Seed in 1972 and I remember you well. It was always a mystery to me, in retrospect, how former staff members held the experience in their own minds. I must say, I'm impressed by your eloquence and intelligence--I would never have guessed that you could be so articulate as you have shown yourself to be on this site.
And on the other hand . . . WOW! What a remarkably nicely structured set of justifications and rationalizations you have erected for yourself, and for your extensive involvement with this atrocious program.
And to top it off, you're calling us all a bunch of babies, because we don't know what REAL torture is, like the kind in Korean POW camps or what-have-you. You're still arrogant, John, still full of shit frankly, and that I'm sorry to see.
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Marc,
I always enjoy your well-written postings here - infrequent thought they might be!
I wish John would post again, though, too.
Watching Antigen and Ft. Lauderdale duke it out here - I do believe they are getting something out of it. Somehow, the truth for us will be revealed.
walter
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Yup! :nworthy:
It's our goddamn duty to get these people back on drugs so they can think for themselves again!!!
RTP2003
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Cleveland, thank you for your words. I appreciate your posts as well. I understand you hold the Seed experience differently from many of us, and I appreciate the complexity of your feelings as well as your sincerity.
Ginger, as always, thanks for hosting the show. And a shout out to you too, Greg!
I think I missed John Underwood by two or three weeks. I don't think he'll give us the satisfaction of returning let alone responding to us point by point. After all, he doesn't have to. He came, he saw, he farted stupendously once or twice, and he split. Maybe he feels abused here, like he's surrounded by mean people coming down on him. Understandable that he doesn't want to stick around. I wouldn't have stayed either, 33 years ago, had I been given a choice.
So we got what we got, and I think it's valuable. We got John Underwood's rationale in the written word, with all its pomp, its forcefulness and credibility as far as they go, its wildly glaring logical flaws, its self-defensiveness and incipient hostility. Just in case anybody still suspects the Seed may have been "right," in some fearful corner of their minds, we now have a document by which to measure the validity of that suspicion. I doubt Lybbi, Susie Connors, or even Art Barker himself could have made the case on behalf the Seed better than JU tried to. So there we have it.
Much love to all on this page.
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Hey Marc,
"get out of your head" He posted today. Wake up maybe you are nodding off. :grin:
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Lauderdale, your positivity is such an inspiration.
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
H.L. Mencken, 1923
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Marcwordsmith wrote:
I think I missed John Underwood by two or three weeks. I don't think he'll give us the satisfaction of returning let alone responding to us point by point. After all, he doesn't have to. He came, he saw, he farted stupendously once or twice, and he split. Maybe he feels abused here, like he's surrounded by mean people coming down on him. Understandable that he doesn't want to stick around. I wouldn't have stayed either, 33 years ago, had I been given a choice.
Marc you didn't stick around enough to see that John U did post again earlier today.
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oops another whiff by marcworsmith maybe you should think about using a lighter bat
i hear pro bass shops offers lessons on how to bait a hook maybe you should look into this too
cause your technique is weak man weak
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Oops! Well, I'm glad John is still here. I went and read his post from this morning.
John, I hope you might be reading this.
I was in the Seed from the fall of '72 through spring '73. I was 14; I was there involuntarily. My memory is that the vast majority of under-18s were there involuntarily. My high school had many Seedlings; I don't remember even one kid who had gone in voluntarily. So, either one of us is very mistaken, or the voluntary/involuntary percentages changed drastically after my time. (I suspect one of us is mistaken, and I suspect it's you. But I could be wrong, I admit.)
John, you offer a quote about forgiveness, and it's a quote I believe in (though what it means to "understand all" . . . well, that's a concept that would take some exploring!). But I'm confused--are you asking forgiveness? Personally, I would grant it to you in a heartbeat. I'm not even angry with you anyway about what happened in the Seed. Insofar as you were nice to some Seedlings, you were rather kind to me, and I appreciate that. The annoyance I've expressed toward you on this page hasn't been about the past; it's been about your clever, eloquent, high-powered, evasive, and denial-laden postings.
You're obviously a very intelligent man. In my previous post, I mentioned the "wildly glaring logical flaws" in your defenses of the Seed. I should have said instead, more precisely, "glaring evasions."
Like . . . how about Marshall's point that "real self-awareness cannot be the product of coercion or conditioning of any sort, however high the ideals"? What do you say to that? Marshall pointed out that high ideals often justify horrific deeds, such as the Crusades. You didn't respond, yet you're clever enough to point out in your most recent post that equating Straight with the Seed is "analogous to stating that the practice of Salafi or Wahhabi is the same as Sunni or ShiÌa because both cite and use the Koran."
Seems to me that you're reinforcing Marshall's point here, though not acknowledging it as it pertains to the Seed.
And what about this sleep deprivation issue? And the fact that the Seed was a massively coercive culture? And psychological violence and humiliation were the norm? (whether or not they were as bad as what Sister Cecilia meted out . . . sorry about your hand, by the way.)
John, if you expressed any misgivings or regrets about the Seed, I must have missed that post. (I plead guilty to not following all threads religiously, or even checking in often, though I am grateful for this website.) I apologize for my ugly characterization of you earlier today, when I incorrectly assumed you'd gone away, and I wrote that you had "farted stupendously once or twice and then split." Very disrespectful of me, and wrong.
Now I am asking you respectfully, are you ever going to address the core criticisms of the Seed as they've been articulated here by the people who--largely involuntarily--suffered (and I DO mean suffered) through the program?
Just to sum up (and I may be forgetting a few), here are some primary criticisms:
1. The Seed was coercive through and through. There was no "dawning awareness" afforded to Seedlings--rather it was a psychological beating-down process, followed by an artificial replacement of the individual "druggie" persona with the "Seedling" persona.
2. A few of the Seed's COMMON and UNDISPUTED techniques were standard brainwashing techniques, such as systematic sleep deprivation; invasion of dignity by not letting people go to the bathroom, and not letting people use the toilet privately; there being no maximum time limit on any stage of the program, so theoretically people might be held against their will indefinitely (and this was often the explicit threat); and probably other stuff I'm forgetting . . .
3. The fact that the Seed, as a culture, was conducive to "wall to wall therapy" (which was alluded to while I was there, though I never actually experienced or saw it) and various types of physical abuse above and beyond sleep deprivation
4. The Seed "philosophy" was both simplistic and insanely self-aggrandizing. All "druggies" (meaning, anyone who'd ever smoked a joint and had not come to the Seed yet): bad, and bound to wind up dead, crazy, or in jail. All Seedlings: ultra-aware and good. "Superior human beings", "Seed City," etc. (Come to think of it, if there was ever going to be a Seed City . . . guess what? Here you are! It just happens to be a cyber city. Who would have ever imagined . . .?)
I'm also curious where you get your information about the "majority" of kids who "benefitted" from the Seed. How do you know? Did you do follow-up surveys? Did a lot of kids keep in touch? Or is that just an assumption--that most kids benefitted?
I guess I'm inviting you to get real, John. I'm glad you're here. You're definitely the star of the show. I think everybody's waiting to hear what you'll say next.
and here's a quote I hope you'll like, by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:
"If we could read the secret history of our enemies we should find sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility."
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One more point I would love John to address, if he is willing. I can't believe I almost forgot, because this is so important. The phrase "Get out of your head." meant so much more than "Pay attention." It meant "Stop thinking." "Stop having your own thoughts." "Stop trying to figure all of this out."
I remember my oldcomer used to snap at me "What are you thinking!" whenever I tried to reflect on my situation in my own mind . . .
The net effect, at least for me (and I imagine for others) of all this "get out of your head" stuff, together with sleep deprivation, nonstop mind-numbing "raps," (you had to have your hand up and be ready to participate at all times), late-night harangues from my oldcomer and so on, was that after a while I was literally UNABLE to think. I couldn't even access my own heart or mind.
And I think this was the intent. We were not supposed to have access to our own inner resources. The only messages we were allowed to process were the Seed's messages, until we had internalized them completely.
What do you think about that analysis, John? Is it wrong?
I mean, really. You are so smart. It's decades later. You can make little cracks about the Patriot Act. You must have had some new thoughts about the Seed after all this time. SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ALL THIS?
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Marc,
How typical. The moment you want more info from someone you apologize for what you have said to them. "your're not alone anymore"
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Oh, stfu, Lauderdale! John's a big boy and can speak for himslef.
I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it
--Harry S. Truman
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Oh & Marc's not. Ma Ma Antigen ::crybaby::
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Hey Antigen/Ginger,
It is obvious that the poster who goes by the name of "Ft. Lauderdale" is not interested in real dialogue, but only in hurting and provoking. This strikes me as very Seedlike actually. In some of your exchanges, I see "Lauderdale" probing for your vulnerable points and trying to magnify and exploit them. In that sense, "Lauderdale's" behavior is illuminating because it's a demonstration/reminder of how people responded to you in the Seed if you tried to communicate reasonably. And I can only presume it was even much worse for you in Straight.
So Ginger dear, what I'm suggesting is, it might not be worth your time and energy to take "Lauderdale" seriously, because you will not win any "arguments" with this character. "Lauderdale" as far as I can tell has only one agenda, which is to upset you and confuse you. You are worth more than that, you are bigger than that. And as far as what is hurting this "Lauderdale" so much that s/he is compelled to be so mean, who knows? But you know you're not going to fix it, right? So please have compassion for yourself first, Ginger. Personally, I would recommend ignoring this person.
Thank you again for your generosity in providing this forum. I really appreciate it. And it's very brave of you to be so vulnerable here.
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Antigen,
You can kiss my straight ass goodbye, I'm leaving this site. I hope your journey of discovery of who the hell knows what happens for you. My suggestion is to move on & get over it. But that will never happen. :wave:
Marcwordsmith you have no idea what I'm about, but you seem to know alot about everything also, so I hope you and Antigen are very happy together.
Love Ya
Lauderdale
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Marc...., I have learned that "getting out of your head" is just that. There are times still I find myself dwelling on something and not solving the problem. It's the same as "stop running Sh** on your head". The seed wanted us to think the same as everyone else, but we are grown now and hopefully think for ourselves. Sitting and stewing about something is just a waste of time. Know what I'm saying?? I'm glad you're here, but give John a break. I think it took him a lot of thinking before he ever wrote on this site. Can you imagine the private messages he must get, full of anger and wrath? I know he doesn't take it personally, yet it is still un-called for. We all had a rough time in the seed, but I'll say for myself, I am still drug and alchol free. Thank God!! I think John was telling others to forgive the past and the seed. That is what it is-- The past. Yes, we are shaped by our past, YET GOOD GOD people. Grow up!
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Hi JaLong. Yeah, I know what you mean about stewing on things in an unproductive way, or obsessing about past hurts. I suppose you could call that "getting into your head" though I've never heard that expression since the Seed (other than in the sense of "they are trying to get into your head with their commercials" etc.). But since we agree that the term was used abusively in the Seed--i.e. to keep us from thinking for ourselves--where is the disagreement here?
Perhaps it is a good idea to forgive the Seed and let go the past; however, I don't think Mr. Underwood is in a position to tell anybody what they should do in this regard.
I also don't think I've been hard on him at all. I've been asking for some answers, and I feel pretty happy with what I've gotten so far. (Not answers exactly, but a very revealing response!)
Really, JaLong, why such sympathy for John Underwood? He perpetrated systematic psychological and physical abuse on teenagers, for many years. He was, in a very real sense, a career criminal. Nothing he is "suffering" from anyone's anger toward him on this website holds a candle to the abuse he dished out. I don't need to see him suffer, but frankly my sympathy gravitates more to some of the people here who've been hurt worse than I have by the Seed, or by Straight, or by some combination of circumstances in which the Seed played a major part.
If it makes you feel good to put a soft spot in your heart for Seed staff, I think that's fine. But are you being equally forebearing to your brothers and sisters who still feel unfinished and traumatized and are still smarting? I think telling people to "grow up" is more than a little condescending, my friend. And honestly, I don't think it works to tell people that.
I'm glad you feel you can put the Seed behind you with no rancor. But everyone is different. Just because you can do that doesn't mean that everyone else also can, or should. Peace. And thanks for your respectful challenge.
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And by the way, JaLong, good for you for staying straight and sober and healthy. I respectfully acknowledge that you derived value from the Seed, if you say so.
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Ft Lauderdale,
I can see why you would be fed up with this site, I really enjoyed it for awhile , people expressing there feelings about the Seed the good and bad. Some people are trying to make it far more then it was, give me a break are these people paranoid schizo, the seed was very simple and everybody in it were damn young , and the idea was we couldn't get over on each other. because we been there done that.
Yes some people should not of been there, but people of the time believed that pot led to smack.
Please don't stop posting, I really enjoy what you have to say and yes you have a great sense of humour and I am surprised some people don't see it. If this site keeps going in this direction, they will alienate alot of us.
:cry2: :cry2: :cry2:
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I would love to see Ft Laud continue posting, but please, the attacks against Ginger are juvenile and based soley on a difference of opinion, not on anything real.
Marc..welcome Back!
John......where you be?
:grin:
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Wow, I do wonder what kind of PM's John's getting. I haven't sent any. And I seriously doubt anyone's sent any poison pen type PMs. Here's what I wonder; I wonder if my brother's all chummy w/ Lauderdale and John? I wonder if they PM each other just to talk shit about me? Not that I'm convinced of it. Just that I wonder; it wouldn't be out of line at all w/ my experience w/ Seedlings in general and my own brother specifically.
The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir
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Antigen,
You are getting a little paranoid. I emailed your brother back 2 times months ago, when he emailed me. He said nothing bad about you. He was more interested in what was going on now with me ect. I actually PMed JU for the first time yesterday. I must admit I said you were getting under my skin and that was it. The world does not evolve around you, or my world anyway.
You and I have had totally different experiences with the Seed. You as a small child and me as a teenager and adult.
I did think that you thought all kind of wierd shit was probably taking place, guess what its not. Have some tea or whatever you use to calm down. No one is ganging up against you. This site is still yours. All yours. I really would try to reconcile but we have totally diffrent views and thats never going to change. So I guess I just have nothing else to say. I admit I have been a bit childlike in some responces, but so have you. So..... I bid thee well. :nworthy: <[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-09-03 09:22 ]
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Marc, I don't have sympathy for John, I'd call it empathy. John was not the only staff member in the seed. I don't agree with you when you said,"he perpetrated systematic physhologial abuse." Sure I felt I was emotionally abused in the seed, but to blame it on John is going a little too far. Come on now, it was 1973 when my parents threw me in there. I was abusive to my parents and sisters, but mainly myself. No, I didn't have full awareness of that at the time, and not even during the 10 months I was in the seed. Yet, yrs later I could sit back and pick what I wanted to use, and throw the rest away. But guess what Marc? It was with the help of a counslor. I needed help when I got out of there, yet I had made some very close friends back then.I met my best friend when she got out and we have been friends now for 32yrs. To me that is a rarity, and a true blessing. With the help of this forum, I have been re-united with quite a few friends from back in the days. It feels as if these past 32 yrs did not come between people I learned to truely love for the first time in my life.
When I said "grow up", I was speaking to some people who CHOOSE to spew venom at each other. The way I see it is this. If people who were in the seed are still messed up and angry, they need some help. Anger only hurts the one who carrries it in their heart, not the people they are angry with. Know what I'm saying? I know some people are still pretty messed up. I can't even mention the seed without my sister telling me she doesn't want to talk about it. She took only 1 hit off a joint when she was 14, but my parents were told, if she doesn't come in I cannot go home. Now is that a non-founded threat or what? I shotgunned her with more weed, as I locked her in the bathroom, then she ever smoked. She hated the stuff.
So, Marc, I will be honest with you and I don't care what anyone else here or anywhere thinks about what I'm going to say. In 1979, 6 yrs after the seed, I accepted Jesus Christ into my life. Then and only then was I able to let go and let God. My faith has helped me get through a divorce from a cheating husband, being homeless 3 times with a month old baby and a newborn, going to college(@ 30) to get my RN, while raising two small children, and getting hurt at work, which caused me to have 11 surgeries, and being disabled since 1991, and a heart attack on top of that in 2001. So life isn't always a bed of roses, but it can still be beautiful with a positive attitude, and beliving in "Someone greater then myself Who has restored me to sanity". So, that's my story Marc. I have some fond memories of the seed, thanks to Susie Conners who took me under her wing at my old timers house where female staff lived. But I also had some horrid times in there. We agree on that don't we? Take care.
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On 2005-09-03 11:47:00, JaLong wrote:
If people who were in the seed are still messed up and angry, they need some help. Anger only hurts the one who carrries it in their heart, not the people they are angry with.
Is that also true of people who are angry about Halliburton's war in Iraq? People who, having researched the facts, are angry about Vietnam? Smedly Buttler, who was quite miffed over the boondogles of WWII?
Do you really think there's no such thing as justified anger? Sometimes, blithe acceptance is the most preverse response of all.
Let me go further. We (the uncaring, unknowing tax payors) have bombed half the planet over the past 50 years, including 40 years or more pounding on those tough mother fuckers at Vieques. We're currently funding the areal spraying of reformulated Agent Orange (Monsanto's Roundup w/ an added isotope to prolong exposure) of areas of So. America that most of us will never see before they're destroyed. This causes cancer and birth defects in the native and refugee population. And, we're told, it's all worth the effort to erradicate a few slect species of God's green herbs.
Is there a Christian on this planet who understands that and thinks it's just fine? No? Then get ahold of Betty Sembler, the proud and sanctimonious professional Seed mother, and give her a piece of your mind, damn it! It's not the Colombian children's fault you can't keep the coke out of your pretty daughter's nose, damn it! Oh, don't care about brown ppl who have oil under them? Fine. How much more of this bullshit do you think these people will take before they quit waiting for American hostages to come to them and start striking US targets? Would that make it worth it to you?
Does it not make you angry that the people ordering these mass exterminations are safe and sound while your own dear children are not? Well, it pisses me off! And I think that's about the only sane response there is.
Who would believe that a democratic government would pursue for eight decades a failed policy that produced tens of millions of victims and trillions of dollars of illicit profits for drug dealers, cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars, increased crime and destroyed inner cities, fostered widespread corruption and violations of human rights - and all with no success in achieving the stated and unattainable objective of a drug free America?
--Milton Friedman, winner of 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize for economic science
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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My, my Ginger,
Yes, there is a thing such as justifiable anger. And I WILL NOT get into a disagreement with you. The world and it's people are going to hell in breadbasket for all the crap that is going on right now. Yes, I agree We, the "great united states of america" don't belong in Irag, or anywhere else as far as I am concerned. Heck, the government does not even help the people right here, such as those who are suffering from Francine, including one of our own, Chris Lewis who lost his home. Should I be angry at the Gov. for making my brother-in -law take little white pills, be on the front line during Desert Storm, and is now sick? Should I feel anger about the genocide in Sudan, where we just sit and let it happen? Sure I feel some anger Ginger, but tell me, is that going to change a darn thing? NOT! If you choose to walk around feeling all of this anger about the state of the world, let me ask you something? Are you in Sudan being a shield to protect just one child? Are you in Irag being a shield for a child there, or have a pen pal you can write to and lift up one soliders day? I have 3. Are you in New Orleans helping people? Rant and rave and be angry all you want Ginger, but who is that going to help? Is it giving you peace Ginger?
I do what I can right here in my own backyard. Raising my children(and no, my pretty 3 daughters and son have not snorted powder up their noses). I am also an AIDS buddy, and have two buddies I see at least twice a week because their families have abandoned them. I have been a team parent for my daughter's softball team for 4 yrs, and I volunteer at the free Clinic here in downtown St. Pete. I'll say one more thing Ginger. If I didn't have children at home that I need to raise, believe you me, I'd be at the Red Cross being trained, using my RN liscence, to help at the triage places for our own poor, hungry, homless, and desolete Americans affected by Francine. So, my dear Ginger, take all of that anger you have, and find somewhere where you can make a difference. People need your help.
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Hey JaLong
I'm going to respond to your second to last post above, in which you addressed me.
First of all, yes of course you're right--I cannot and do not blame the whole phenomenon of The Seed on John Underwood; he was just one guy.
More importantly though, I want to say I admire that when you knew you needed help in your life, you went and found the help you needed, whether it was seeing a counselor, or letting Jesus into your heart. You've had a tough road, and I respect your will and your determination to overcome terrible pain and huge challenges. I wish you health and peace, and I wish the same for your kids, who are lucky to have a mom with such an inspiring tenacious spirit.
I guess I also have to say something about your more recent post. It is highly commendable that you devote so much of your time and energy to helping others, but must you "come down" on Ginger for what you presume she doesn't do? You chided me for being unkind to John Underwood. I must ask you again to consider that many, perhaps most, of the people on this website are in pain, and we're all doing the best we can, and there is no point in comparing ourselves to others.
Sometimes I think this whole life is nothing but a healing journey. We're all looking for ways to heal our own pain, the pain of others, and our shared pain. You've done very well and you've been very brave. But please don't wield your life like a weapon, so that others should feel inadequate. Peace.
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At least someone is doing something!!!!
Yep its Lybbi...
-----------------------------------------
Along the Gulf Coast
Trying to Search, Hoping to Rescue
Post-Katrina Conditions Are Overwhelming Even to Veteran FEMA Teams
By Sylvia Moreno
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 1, 2005; Page A12
LONG BEACH, Miss., Aug. 31 -- By mid-afternoon Wednesday, medical specialist Lt. Jose Arias walked into the rubble that was once this seaside community's old-money neighborhood and declared: "Worse than Andrew."
Arias, a paramedic in the Miami-Dade County fire department, should know. He is part of the Federal Emergency Management Agency's Florida Task Force 2 -- a team of search-and-rescue veterans of every powerful hurricane to hit the Southeast in recent memory. Andrew, Charley, Frances, Ivan and now Katrina: The team has worked them all.
Reporter's Query: Tell Us Your Story
The Washington Post and washingtonpost.com want to hear your stories about Hurricane Katrina.
Special Report -- In Katrina's Wake
Katrina Q& A: Cancellation Policies, Refunds and More
Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist Dies
In Texas:240,000 Evacuees Strain Capacity
What Went Wrong:Storm Exposed Disarray at the Top
Many Evacuated, but Thousands Still Waiting
More Stories
"Yeah, worse," echoed Lybbi Kienzle, the owner and handler of one of the most important members of the team: Josh, a Labrador-and-golden-retriever mix federally certified in search-and-rescue. "We just went through Katrina ourselves [in Florida], and we just knew they were going to get killed."
Divided into five squads, Florida Task Force 2 spent its first day along Mississippi's Gulf Coast performing its most important task: looking for trapped victims of Hurricane Katrina. Braving a heat index of 100 and carrying 40 pounds of rescue and survival gear on their backs, they located one cadaver -- a man buried neck-deep in rubble in Gulfport -- and capped about a dozen leaking natural gas lines. They walked door to door along a 63-block area just west of downtown Gulfport to check for trapped people and animals, and responded to emergency calls from local authorities.
"We're a small department," said Mike Brown, deputy chief of the Long Beach Fire Department. "It looks good when these guys walk in."
"This place," Brown paused for a moment as his eyes teared up and his voice caught, "has been devastated."
By Wednesday, 11 FEMA teams had responded to Mississippi's devastated Gulf Coast to assist local officials. Seven teams had traveled to Louisiana.
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Good Stuff Libbi!
When you done doing this most excellent important work, come visit us here some more on the forum...
:grin:
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JaLong, there's a stark difference between what the Arab government is doing to the Sudanese natives and what AUC is doing to Colombian natives. In sudan, it's the Arabs and so it's up to the House of Saud to make it stop, though I do wish more Americans would take the time to understand how our alliance w/ the House of Saud contributes to their acquiring and maintaining the power to do what they're doing in places like Sudan.
In Colombia, AUC is the paramilitary death squad that started out w/ US funding, training and, by some credible accounts, hands on, warm American bodies and blazing guns. In those days, they called themselves Los Pepes and their only target was Pablo Escobar. W/ Pablo gone and his enterprise divided among his enemies, Los Pepes has grown, continues to receive US support, funding and cart blanch to go after FARC. It's well known that, just like FARC, AUC also relies heavily on illicit drug profits to fund their never ending civil war.
And they justify the funding and support in the name of the drug war. That's the US apologia for our ongoing involvement in So. America's dirty politics; we have to keep on killing and poisoning brown ppl in So. America for as long as it takes before rich white American girls lose interest in coke.
Just imagine if The Seed had effective policy and funding control of US forces. That's pretty much what's going on. It's pure hysteria. But, for some damned reason, the mainstream media and man on the street just doesn't question it.
And, here's the sticky part, if you support or neglect to call out DFAF and DPNA there in St. Pete, you're part of the problem. You know, from firsthand experience, how dangerously self deluded these people are. And you know very well that they're making public policy based on Program dogma and funded by billions in federal, state and local taxes. And, not only do you go along and continue to give them your support, but you have the self rightious audacity to scold me like a little child for saying something about it? Who the hell do you think you are, anyway?
But I suppose it just feels so good to do "something" and pretend that makes it all ok.
The introduction of a Creator has done our independence no good.
--Gore Vidal, author
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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Marc,Thank you for your kind and gentle words. I really appreciate them. I know that a lot of people are still tramatized by the seed, and straight. I do feel for all. I am by no means standing in judgement of anyone here or on the outside. That is not who I am, and it is not my job to do so. I was not rebuking Ginger, just posing some questions to her. I was not attacking her. I'm not even sure I know her. I was stating some facts about our worlds messes, as Ginger always does, and my main question was asking what does anger solve? Nothing in my book. I like the saying, "you can get more from honey, then vinegar." I know for myself, if I remained angry at all the injustices done to me, alng with all of theinjustices in the world, I would not grow. I would be stagnant. I like to challenge myself, even if it causes me physical pain, or exhaustion. I learned in AA, when I use to go with my old boyfriend who just died in Feb, that "we are to share our experience, strength, and hope with each other." And "to reach out to those still suffering." That is why I like this forum, and that is why I share here. I am not perfect, nor do I claim to be. I use to be just a survior,(and always will be), but now I try to live life to the best of my capabilities. If any of my words have offended anyone, especially you Ginger, I sincerely apologize.
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Ginger, Who is the DFAF and DPNA? I'd really would like to know. I agree our government has blood all over it's hands all over the world. It makes me sick. I was not scolding you. I was asking you some questions. I have no anamosity towards you at all. It just feels to "me", whenever someone replies to one of your posts, you try to blast them out of the water. I don't even know you, just your posts. Were you in the St.Pete seed? Again, as my letter back to Marc said, if I have offended you in any way I apologize, and ask your forgiveness.
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JaLong, as long as you have been discussing these issues w/ ppl in these forums, I'm guessing you'd know very well who DFAF is by now if you wanted to. But, in case anyone else reading, now or in futre, wants to look into it, here's a good start.
http://thestraights.com/articles/dpna.htm (http://thestraights.com/articles/dpna.htm)
Essentially, "Plan Colombia" is an American war effort pursued on the pretext of waging the war on drugs. The founders of Straight, Inc. and past funders, friends and supporters of The Seed are in it up to their eyebrows. Their connections go all the way to the White House, latterally throughout the intelligence community and all the way back to the `70's.
If former Seedlings and Straightlings don't know what our lunatic captors are doing w/ our money, our national reputation, our young brave soldiers and our taxes these days, then I would suggest that it's worth your time and trouble to look into it a little bit. We all who sat in group and know firsthand how crazy and how thorougly deluded these people are have an obligation to raise a hew and cry about it. These people should never have been trusted to care for teenagers, never mind to make international policy and order soldires around!
But this is far from demonstrating that the authorities must interpose to suppress these vices by commercial prohibitions, nor is it by any means evident that such intervention on the part of the government is really capable of suppressing them or that, even if this end could be attained, it might not therewith open up a Pandora's box of other dangers, no less mischievous than alcoholism and morphinism.
Ludwig Von Mises
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I noticed in the linked article that S.O.S. is a Betty Sembler Foundation. Is this the same S.O.S. that posted the web page Marshall cited on cult-like rehab programs, offering S.O.S. as a non-coercive alternative?
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No, Betty's SOS is Save Our Society from Drugs. It's mission statement is all about opposing medical marijuana inits and legislative efforts on the state and federal levels.
Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones
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Is your group a cult? From the sos website:
Points to look out for in your group members:
Emotional overreaction when the group or leader is criticized. Seen as evil persecution
Demonization of former members or members of alternative groups
Cult Leaders
Points to look out for in your group leader:
Authoritarian approach and intolerance of questioning or criticism.
Lies about and insults opponents.
Leader regularly accuses dissatisfied members who leave of having something wrong with them, having personality disorders or being transgressor and deserters.
The group/leader is always right and followers never feel they can be "good enough".
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'It has been known for a long time that persons who test high on authoritarianism relate best to the rigors of the 12-step program and are more likely to become devoted, long-term members. The sponsor system assures social stratification, self-debasement, and gratification of the need for control over others. Beyond this, members achieve status and credibility based on time since last drink, so that someone with five years of sobriety might feel diminished in the presence of someone a decade sober. The result is a core membership of "true believers" whose identities are at one with AA.
AA presents itself as necessary to life itself: "without AA we will perish." Any criticism of the Program or of AA is regarded as heresy that endangers the lives of AA'ers everywhere, and must be silenced by admonitions or mottos. Members dwell upon themselves endlessly, working steps on themselves, and attending [meetings] as part of methodical spiritual growth.
AA has a well-known reputation as "slogan therapy," but all cults use repeated phrases as an indoctrination technique. Like all cults, each and every slogan or motto of AA is an inversion of the truth or a platitude to cover an atrocity. The meeting structure itself forbids two-way communications, allowing for one to "share" whatever, with only marginal or no commentary from the group. Approval and disapproval are communicated slyly with acerbic comments from groupers, or nonverbal gestures and cues.
Pathologizing inquiry, criticism, and dissent. The Program is divinely inspired, and may not be criticized. Persons who object to cult doctrine are ostracized, reprimanded, regarded as sick, diseased, in denial, in relapse, constitutionally incapable of honesty, or simply doomed. Critics of AA are always angry, in denial, paranoid, sick people. Skeptics and others who test the coherency of AA doctrine are advised, "Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth."
by Jack Trimpey
from The Journal of Rational Recovery
(I have no idea whether any of this is true of AA but it sure reminded me of the Seed)
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On 2005-09-07 19:29:00, marshall wrote:
AA presents itself as necessary to life itself: "without AA we will perish." Any criticism of the Program or of AA is regarded as heresy that endangers the lives of AA'ers everywhere, and must be silenced by admonitions or mottos.
Didn't John just recently accuse us all of killing off prospective Seedlings by discouraging them from giving it a shot? :rofl: Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed people can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has.
-- Margaret Mead
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can anyone tell me where to find fuelaw's interview with reporter about his beatings at the seed, what newspaper or magazine
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Some one please referance me to John UnderWood's posts.
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You won't hurt him? now will you?
Look under POSTER you'll see his name & go to the first page of each & there ya go...
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On 2005-09-08 12:03:00, Antigen wrote:
On 2005-09-07 19:29:00, marshall wrote:
AA presents itself as necessary to life itself: "without AA we will perish." Any criticism of the Program or of AA is regarded as heresy that endangers the lives of AA'ers everywhere, and must be silenced by admonitions or mottos.
Didn't John just recently accuse us all of killing off prospective Seedlings by discouraging them from giving it a shot? :rofl: "
When I got into 'program' for real in '91, I hated the mottos! They were trying to break down the concepts of recovery into tiny sound bytes so that even someone with a self inflicted scrambled brain could absorb them. I didn't care for that because it took a while for 'them' to 'brainwash' me into believing that I was in possession of such a brain, right here on top of of my very own shoulders! Through MY lifestyle choices, I had allowed myself to become, at least for a time, simple minded. I finally 'came to believe' I needed the small chunks (mottos) so I decided I would keep coming back, keep it simple, eat more cotton, this too shall pass (I just hope that one is not about kidney stones!) it works if you work it, one day at a time, meetings make it (what?....coffee?), think, think, think, yadda, yadda, yadda....
I don't believe that John just recently accused me of killing off prospective Seedlings by discouraging them from giving it a shot, because I'm not a member of the 'USALL' cult. (if you don't know what that acronym stands for, you don't know what you're talking about) I have been programmed to encourage people to seek help, if it is called for. I think the term for this type of behavior is something like 'compassion', or 'empathy', if I remember my Seed jargon correctly.....I do remember 'symphony kills'...I avoid it like hip-hop.
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And how is this `91 enlightenment different from, say, the one in the mid `80's or the one you and I discussed sometime around `95 or `96, which had just occured recently. Or that stunning inspiration around `80 or so that led you to believe you were doing me a huge favor by helping force me into Straight?
It'll never change, Thom. The last thing you ever were is simple minded. A simple minded person would automatically balk at the difference between suggestion and brute force. It takes a bit of complexity to hold sets of contradictory views to be equally true and valid.
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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On 2005-09-19 09:28:00, Antigen wrote:
"And how is this `91 enlightenment different from, say, the one in the mid `80's or the one you and I discussed sometime around `95 or `96, which had just occured recently. Or that stunning inspiration around `80 or so that led you to believe you were doing me a huge favor by helping force me into Straight?
It'll never change, Thom. The last thing you ever were is simple minded. A simple minded person would automatically balk at the difference between suggestion and brute force. It takes a bit of complexity to hold sets of contradictory views to be equally true and valid.
Thank you? I'm not quite sure if you just said I'm hopelessly simple minded, or hopelessly complex.
Enlightenment is a process. If it were a single event, we would all be consumed by the overwhelming brilliance of the mind of God.
I have, even today been enlightened! I was not aware that I helped force you into Straight. I'm not sure if it is the result of a blackout on my part, or because it didn't happen.
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There's a lot you don't remember.
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.
--James Madison, U.S. President
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On 2005-09-20 08:54:00, Antigen wrote:
"There's a lot you don't remember"
It is obviously a DELAYED REACTION from smoking marihuana decades before!
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Yeah, that must be it.
The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this.
--Albert Einstein, My First Impression of the U.S.A., 1921
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On 2005-09-20 09:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-20 08:54:00, Antigen wrote:
"There's a lot you don't remember"
It is obviously a DELAYED REACTION from smoking marihuana decades before!"
OH, I GET IT NOW! :lol:
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On 2005-09-03 06:52:00, Antigen wrote:
"Wow, I do wonder what kind of PM's John's getting. I haven't sent any. And I seriously doubt anyone's sent any poison pen type PMs. Here's what I wonder; I wonder if my brother's all chummy w/ Lauderdale and John? I wonder if they PM each other just to talk shit about me? Not that I'm convinced of it. Just that I wonder; it wouldn't be out of line at all w/ my experience w/ Seedlings in general and my own brother specifically.
The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir
"
Ginger,
the secrets got to be out. I did tell Ft Laud. how intriqued i am with you and how I respect your manner of dissent at least in response to me. Ok! I feel better now that I've confessed. I know just another example of our overdisclosing ways. But I think a little overdisclosure keeps things interesting. Besides you already knew all that anyway. I know you say your over it but your anger sometimes seems to belie that. I for one enjoy your feistiness. Just don't wish for it to be old hurts that generate it. :wave: