Fornits

Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

I feel accused, and I feel the need to reply to some of the questions.  I don?t care for the ugly turn this has taken.

First of all, the need for a court order from Utah was what Steve Nadauld told us would be required for them to allow the boy to be removed from their program.  Any orders we could provide from our home state courts, which had jurisdiction over the custody, would not be recognized or accepted.  We asked to have this put in writing, and Mr. Nadauld refused.  I can prove this, should it ever be required.  By the time it could have been addressed in the Utah courts, it would have been too late to help.

So far as considering a lawsuit, we discussed it.  We have no obligation, moral or otherwise, to drag our family through the legal system.  I do feel an obligation to let others know that this ?business? can violate your rights as a joint legal custodian, in every conceivable way.  And they can put your child through their program against your wishes.  We don?t want tainted money that was made off the misery of children and incompetence/desperation of parents.   When he is an adult, he may pursue it legally if he chooses.  But for now he?s been through enough.  We are concentrating on helping him heal and do not want any distractions.  He has asked to see the documentation we have, and we have provided it to him.  We?ve answered all his questions about how he came to be there, and the reasons we were not able to have him released.  He can see that the forms were faxed back and forth between Redcliff, his mother?s employer?s fax, and the business fax of the unrelated third party that signed as his father, in the week prior to his abduction.  He lost 80 days of his life there.  He is entitled to know how that was allowed to happen to him.  

Yes, we contacted every official and agency that could possibly offer us any assistance.  We hit roadblocks repeatedly, due to privacy concerns.  We were shuffled from one agency to another.  We even tried to confirm that they had at least complied with the Interstate Compact laws that cover transporting children between states for this sort of purpose.  No dice, privacy issues.  We received a reply from Alan Sevison, the Assistant Attorney General in Utah, stating he could only help us if we had a complaint of abuse.  Unfortunately, Utah does not consider these activities to be abuse.  Apparently Oregon has the same view, and that is why these two states are such a haven for the WT business.  Redcliff claims that the law allows them to accept a child with the permission of a single parent or guardian.  They say they are under no obligation to recognize the legal rights of any other parent.  Their own contract contradicts this, but my husband could hardly force them to comply with an agreement he never entered into with them.  The state licensors would do nothing to help us.  They are only there to make sure Redcliff meets their requirements with regard to the health and safety of the kids.  I?m not sure their task is even achievable, given the nature and logistics of Redcliff.  How do you pop in unexpectedly somewhere in the midst of a 650 square mile wilderness?  

I haven?t bashed Redcliff.  I haven?t made damaging claims.  I HAVE STATED FACT.  If stating our factual experience is damaging, they should rethink their policies.  I?m sure Redcliff is aware of the things I have said.  I would invite them to contact me, and I would be thrilled to have the opportunity to address this with Steve Nadauld (or any of his associates), as he ended any dialogue some time ago by refusing to accept or return phone calls, and has not responded to certified mail.  He made it clear my husband had NO rights whatsoever.  A father?s right to see or even speak to his own son was superceded by the arrogant rights of a profitable business entity.  If they feel I have stated anything that is not 100% true, I invite their rebuttal.  I would love to hear them publicly justify accepting a child against the wishes of his father who had joint legal custody, with an application and contract that had more red flags than Tiananmen Square, against the recommendation of the child?s psychologist (whom they never even bothered to contact).  

I have not left out ?unflattering facts?.  I have hid nothing.  Frankly, the implication confuses me.  You strongly feel that you did everything you could to help your son.  You feel you utilized Redcliff as a last resort when all other options had been exhausted.  You are comfortable that after 100 days in the wilderness, your son has changed and has a new lease on life.  You have made this determination after spending a few days with him, and from phone calls you receive from him at school.  I seriously hope to God that you are right.  I want to believe this every bit as much as you do.  It hurts me to think of the kids who have lost precious time from their lives to this industry.  But in actuality you can?t possibly know until he is back with your family, interacting on a daily basis.  

By the way, did Redcliff come through with any of the academic credit they claim to offer?  The things they sent us were absolutely ridiculous, and I?m sure the local school board is still laughing that we would even present it to them for consideration.

My goal is to educate parents about our experience.  We felt like we were living in a communist country, or unable to wake up from a nightmare.  We worried that he would never be able to forgive us for being unable to help him.  It nearly killed us.  Our circumstances were different from yours.  Obviously Redcliff treated us differently than they did you and your family.  They denied a father access to his son, and somehow felt justified in doing so.  Any parents who are considering such a placement need to determine whether a facility has the INTEGRITY they should expect and demand from anyone who would be charged with helping their child.  They have to know their rights won?t be violated, and their family won?t be exploited.  Parents should share their experiences and support each other.  Otherwise we will all be at the mercy of carefully scripted websites and advertisements, designed to prey on the desperation of frightened parents.  And ultimately our children will pay the price if we aren?t thorough and diligent.

On 2005-12-23 15:07:00, Anonymous wrote:

"There is no doubt that there are awful programs out there but I don't think Redcliff is one of them -- the industry is ripe for abuse and not well legislated or controlled and parents send kids who don't need to be there...
"

There is only ONE reason parents are ABLE to send kids who don't need to be there.  Redcliff knowingly ACCEPTS those kids, with no due process, and in our case against the recommendation of a qualified professional.  It is a highly profitable business that preys on desperate parents.  At some point they have to be accountable, and begin to make some cursory validation of the child's history.  Presently, the only true requirement is the ability to pay.  Once that is established, they will promptly incarcerate your child for you. Anyone looking at an enrollment application for wilderness therapy would expect to see a history of drug abuse, theft, truancy and/or violence.  And one would expect to see a long list of traditional therapy treatments that were explored prior to taking such a radical step.  My step-son's application had none of that.  No reasonable person would have believed he could be enrolled based on the information they were given.  That should have been a red flag.  It wasn't. A valid credit card authorization was included with the application; that was all that mattered.

Why would you say that?  I don't understand why you think I'm covering my ass.  I just don't want him to feel more angry that 80 days of his life was totally wasted.

Thanks, Atomic Ant!  What thoughtful and intelligent advice!

We hadn't thought much about what he DOES believe in, mainly because it appears he doesn't believe in much of anything beyond having fun, material possessions and social status.  But surely there must be something there. His mother forced him into Catholicism to assure his continued enrollment in Catholic School, but he has no desire to attend mass, or to practice the religion.  We now have him in public school for the first time, and he loves it.  Actually I had recently researched the Unitarians, as they seem to promote free thinking, and it's about time he is encouraged to have some free thoughts of his own.  It may be just the place for him to be exposed to diverse thoughts, values and ideas.  It's worth pursuing.  Right now his thoughts seem to center around ONLY his immediate "wants".  I'd love to see him do some reading, and Ayn Rand would be an excellent choice to promote some free thinking.  But he sees reading as work, and won't do it.  Our house is practically a library, and we read a lot, so maybe he'll eventually see reading as a leisure activity and pick up a book!

We've given up on trying to explain values and other foreign concepts to him.  He thinks it's just Redcliff chatter, and he's tired of it.  We believed, from his written assignments at Redcliff  and the few letters we received from him, that he was gaining an understanding of these things, but he was just playing the game.  We have accepted that he will only learn these things by example, and hope we can set that example.  He has been told for years that we are evil incarnate, so that will take time.  He knows we are consistent, and that we are always here for him.  Although he is still belligerent, we can sense that he feels very secure here overall.  That's a good start, and probably the best we can expect.  He's tried to blackmail us by saying he wants to return to the place where he had no rules to follow, but in the end he said he would not consider leaving here. We have very simple and reasonable rules.  He has a set bedtime on school nights, we are all expected to be honest and respectful with each other, and if he goes to visit a friend, we have to know their last name and home phone number.  Hardly a gulag situation.  He had a really good day yesterday, and we were encouraged.  His trust has been violated by nearly everyone in his life who supposedly "cared" for him, so it's going to be a huge adjustment.  I believe in time, he will come to trust us, as he sees that we are caring people, and we demonstrate our values in our day-to-day lives.  It's up to him to develop his own values....all we can do is be an example.  It's something that should have been instilled, or at least demonstrated to him throughout his life, but unfortunately we are starting from scratch.

You hit the nail on the head.  He doesn't believe anyone truly loves him, and he believes he's not worthy of being loved.  He told us he expected we would physically abuse him, which is not in our nature to do, nor is it a remote possibility.  But it was his expectation, as this has been his experience in life.  I don't know how long it will take him, if ever, to fully lose that expectation.  I try to empathize, but I can only imagine what he has suffered, and how helpless and alone he must have felt.  Then he was further victimized by being sent to Redcliff, which only served to reinforce that he deserved to be punished for being abused.  All in all, it's amazing that he functions at all.

It sounds like your father is an amazing and insightful man, and his guidance was immeasurable. I'd love to know his methods.  I thought I was such an experienced parent, having raised a family in my previous marriage (and my grown children are simply amazing, thoughtful and kind human beings) but this is a totally new challenge for me, and I can't afford to screw it up.  He is too important.  He IS worth saving, and I love him dearly.  Well, now the tears are coming.  I really want to help shape him in life, without putting him into a mold.  I want him to be able to think for himself, form his own opinions, and he's never been allowed to do that before.  Most of all, I want him to KNOW he is loved, and that he DESERVES to be loved.  We will love him even when he's being a little snot.  We will love him when he makes mistakes.  We may not always like him, but we will love him.  It will take time for him to realize this, I know.  

Thanks so much for the insightful and helpful advice!

I haven't posted in a long time.  There was so much going on, and we had no luck removing my stepson from Redcliff by legal means.  His mother's permission, and the permission of her 3rd ex-husband (representing himself as the boy's father), along with approximately $31,000 (including the cost of his abduction) was sufficient reason for Redcliff to keep him as long as possible, against my husband's wishes.

FINALLY he did graduate.  It took 80 long days. We went to Utah and attended the parent's seminar.  Trust me, nobody wants to go through that.  It was ongoing hours of listening to Dr. Dan drone on about things that had absolutely no relevance.  I went because I expected them to tell us what to expect, and about aftercare.  Nope, it was just Dr. Dan enjoying hearing himself speak.  People were nodding off.  The boy had his FIRST SHOWER IN 80 DAYS.  It took about 3 weeks to finally chisel all the filth off him.  It's a wonder they didn't all have lice.

Fortunately, one good thing came out of this long saga.  The boy revealed enough about his home life to his therapist there that we were able to gain custody of him.  

We objected to him being sent to Redcliff because it was done without my husband's knowledge or consent, and against the advice of the boy's evaluating psychologist, who said it could be counterproductive.  It was established that all he needed was some regular local counseling to deal with anger issues (and now we know...boy, did he ever have reason to be angry!) and a more stable home environment.  For that, he was abducted by strangers and taken to Utah.  We had never had any problems with him other than him being quite spoiled, and having a sense of entitlement.  

That has sure changed.  We brought him home from Utah, and it has been chaos ever since.  The experience has nearly ruined him.  Of course, he had to enter high school late, so he will likely end up in summer school to attempt to catch up.  But he likes his new school.  Other than that, he hates everything.  He resents having rules to follow (very REASONABLE rules, I might add) and he has blatantly lied to us more times than I can count.  He has gotten into trouble, and he refuses to accept that he is grounded as a consequence of his actions.  Every day is a constant battle.  We've tried to talk to him about the merits of being honest and trustworthy, and he just says that's a bunch of crap, and he doesn't care if he's trustworthy, and why would anybody spend any time thinking about trust?  He is extremely disrespectful and cruel.  He says he is not going to respect the rules, that he shouldn't HAVE any rules, etc.  We read some of his written therapy assignments, in which he says how important trust & truth are, and how he wants to be a better person.  He now admits, he learned to play the Redcliff Game, and knew what was expected of him to make him worthy of graduating.  All the kids learn the game.  He just took longer than average.

Redcliff was advised within a few days of accepting him into their program, that his psychologist warned this was not right for him. They were given a copy of his evaluation.  I told him in a letter that the psychologist said he shouldn't be there, and we were trying to get him out.  Because I did that, I was banned from writing to him.  Now he says his Redcliff therapist told him a different story.  She allegedly told the boy she spoke to his psychologist, and she read the evaluation, and she stressed that he DID say he needed to be there.  We contacted the psychologist and he said he never heard from anyone from Redcliff.  Because he has done nothing but lie since he arrived, I wouldn't be inclined to believe him, but he volunteered the information.  And the therapist had lied to us on at least one occasion that we know of, so who knows what the truth is.

Regardless, I would say to any parent who is considering Redcliff:  Don't buy into the advertising.  Keep in mind that the success statistics they quote on their website were compiled by people who are (directly or indirectly) affiliated with Redcliff (one is actually on their board of directors). Do your research.  It DOES NOT WORK.  In our case, they knowingly accepted a kid who didn't need it, accepted him under false pretenses, refused to allow his father to withdraw him, and turned him into a frighteningly angry young man.  We sleep with our wallets and car keys.  His mother turned her relatively normal son over to Redcliff. He had some very justified anger issues over his home life. She expected them to fix him, when she was the one who needed fixing. After 80 days, we returned home with an extremely angry, unmotivated, sarcastic and cruel young man.  Redcliff is nothing more than a lucrative business, operating at the expense of children and their families, and a feeder program to get kids into even more lucrative boarding schools.  They should be ashamed of themselves.  They feed off the desperation of parents, promising to repair their broken children, and teach them responsibility, accountability, and integrity.  I mentioned integrity the other day, and he said "What is that?".  When I explained, he dismissed it as something he had no interest in. So what DID he learn at Redcliff?  He learned how to build a fire without matches, and he learned how to use a knife.

Even though we told Redcliff that nobody in the family could afford to send him to boarding school....it was NOT an option, they continued to provide him with brochures, and even the field staff told him to keep pressing his parents to let him go on to boarding school (I have the field staff's journal notes to prove it).  That's where the big money is, so they try to lure the kids on board.  The kids don't know any better.  They don't understand it's all a big money making scheme.

So, overall it was one big disaster.  He has been set behind in school, his attitude is frightening, and we have a LONG road ahead of us.  Every day is a new challenge, or a repeat of an old challenge.  Nobody from Redcliff has called to ask how he's doing.  They don't want to know.  They took a good kid and created a monster.  They are still counting the cash.  And we are trying to save a kid they destroyed.

On 2005-08-27 21:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I spent 50 days at RedCiff and to be honest it might have saved my life.  Its a good program and had a positive effect on all the kids I was there with.  I saw that series 'Brat Camp' with the British kids and their expiriance was pretty much identical to mine so if you've seen that show and still think its abuse then you probably have some mental issues yourself that need to be worked out.  Instead of spouting off about all this 'suffering' and 'cruelty' it causes maybe you should look at some of the huge ammout of good it can do."

I'm glad Redcliff was helpful to you.  May I ask why you were placed at Redcliff?

Cute, Shortbus.  I needed the laugh today!  Thanks!  Our appointment with our attorney got moved to Thursday, so we're in limbo until then, while a child waits in the desert.  Limbo is a rotten place.  Like Purgatory.  Maybe I should change my handle to REDCLIFFSBIGGESTPAININTHEBUTT.  More accurate!