Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Brat Camp => Topic started by: dougm on July 25, 2005, 04:34:00 PM
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I don't know how to really dispell the myths about Sagewalk being a "boot camp" and students being "tortured and abused" other than just describing how a typical day went for me. This is rather long so pop some popcorn or something...
Day starts off by counselors calling 5 minutes. This means that everyone has 5 minutes to be dressed, have their sleeping bags hung on a tree, grab their food bags, and be sitting around the firepit. If everyone does not have this done by 5 minutes, everything gets put back the way it was, then you do it again until every thing is completed in the 5 minute slot. After this, there is hygeine. This involves filling your cup with water and soap, taking your rag and washing your face, hands and feet. I believe 8 or 10 minutes was given for hygeine. You had to be checked off by a counselor. If not everyone was checked off by a counselor in the allotted time, everyone had to do it again, although it was fairly easy the second time around, since most everyone was already clean and didnt need to do additional scrubbing. Then came breakfast, usually 20 minute time limit. Breakfast consisted of usually cold oats, with water, powdered milk, and then if you rationed well, brown sugar and raisins. If a fire was going, campers had the option of heating their oats, although only a few did so (I preferred my oats cold). You were required to eat at least 2 cups of oats, and one quart of water, both checked off (one girl forgot to check off that she had drank her quart of water, was forced to drink another and promptly vomited next to me) After this, you needed to clean your cup, which involved taking making mud and scrubbing the inside of your cup with it and rinsing it out until it was spotless. If everyone did not have their food eaten and cups cleaned by time limit, then spices would not be available for later meals (you needed to make 3 time limits in a row in order to have spices). All food that was prepared is required to be eaten, regardless if you feel full or the food doesn't taste good. Some people vomited because of this, including myself after using too much spice on my rice and lentils. After this, usually came some sort of planned activity, gathering firewood, some sort of group therapy, or when we were moved to a site in the Orinoco (?) Forest, day-hiking (food and water only, no packs) up mountains and through forests and what not (probably the most fun activity there, incredibly beautiful) although we couldn't really do this at the high desert site and apparently, SW has moved back there where I spent my first 10 days or so. Gathering firewood was rather difficult in the high desert, since we were required by both SW and BLM policy to take only dead and down trees. Lunch was usually very light, just some granola and another quart of water. Very easy to make time limit, if there was one (sometimes we would stop hiking and sit and snack then continue). This meal wasn't required, but was only taken away if the group was misbehaving (never taken away if we were hiking or going to hike). Afternoon activities were performed, sometimes our "homework", coursework that focused on goals, aspirations, management skills, etc. not your typical math, science, english etc. or more firewood collecting, therapy, etc. Dinner was usually at sunset or so (preceeded by hygeine again), since we could not really do much after dark anyways. Dinner was rice and lentils except for Wednesday nights and Thursday nights. Wednesday night, we were given dehydrated refried beans and tortillas, made absolutely amazing (well, in comparison to the rice and lentils) burritos and Thursday nights was Macaroni night, which if you still had some cheese (most was used during burrito night) could make mac and cheese. Even without cheese, however, just regular macaroni was much better tasting than the rice and lentils. Since Rice and Lentils take at least 20 minutes to cook on the fire, time limit was either 40 minutes or 60 minutes depending on behavior (longer time limit for better behavior). While food was cooking, we were required to write a page in our journals. We also had a moment of silence (controversial, i think) and this was also the time when most of the group therapy occurred, when counselors encouraged the campers to express greivances, whether it be with SW, the counselors themselves, other students, or just problems in general. Usually, this either allowed for compromise and conflict resolution, or sometimes flared tempers (some girl I remember believed in Creationism, which I was fine with, but then she started ripping on evolution, which I was not cool with). Food was then eaten, then cups cleaned, food bags put away and we were dismissed to bed. Although we did not have any concept of time of there other than what day it was, I could guess that we received at least 11-12 hours of sleep a night (7-8pm till 7-8am).
Perhaps the least fun activity, and the one with the most controversy, would be the hiking. This involved taking down camp, with a time limit, packing up, then hiking upwards of 8 miles. Taking down camp involved dismantling the shelter, usually 2 or so tarps tied up to trees with rope. Filling in the firepit, filling in the latrine, then rock and sticking it. Filling up the "reds" (small water jugs). Spilling excessive water from the reds would require you to lift a full "red" above your head 25 times yelling at the top of your lungs "I will not spill the red, this is for my safety (rep number)". After the camp was taken down, next (still during time limit) was to pack our packs...usually involved rolling our gray mats (what we sit on around the campfire) and our tarps up, strapping to the back of the pack, then filling our packs with our sleeping bags, extra clothes and food bags. Packs usually weighed somewhere around 80 (supposively) pounds, depending on how full the food bag was. In addition, several were assigned to carry the full "reds" (probably between 10-20 lbs) in their hands, and someone with the empty whites and siphon hose. Hiking was what you made of it. I had undiagnosed diabetes, I weighed 115 (when I finally got diagnosed and started insulin, I spiked at just under 150 lbs, 35 lbs weight gain in about 3 months) and was chronically fatigued. My first hike, we need to scale a small rock face, basically about 100 ft of steps. I fell over a few times and threw up. I was reassured by my peers that this was normal, and the counselors would make us continue until we reached our destination, regardless of fatigue level. The counselors gave us a break after 1/2 mile after we finished the rock face climb. After I got some water in me, I felt much much better and we hiked another 5 miles or so, me only falling over once more due to a misstep. I was also taught early on in my program that the biggest key to hiking is packing your pack correctly, putting your heavy stuff on top and making sure the waist straps are above your hips. After this tip, hiking was fairly easy, with the only real problem being overall fatigue from high blood sugar (all food is high in carbs to provide energy, which was not good for me). After hiking, camp set-up, opposite of camp take-down with time-limit. If camp setup or takedown took longer than time limit, rules dictated that we were supposed to re-do it all over again (45 minutes worth of work) but many times, the counselors, if they saw genuine effort and hustle (or if problems out of camper control came to light) they were pretty lienent.
I'm positive I've forgotten many things, or certain details are incorrect, it has been 3 years since I attended. If you have any questions as to other stuff, feel free to post them here, or im usually on AIM/AOL at phawktard. Please, if you're going to contact me on AIM, don't abuse this. I'm more than willing to answer questions as long as they're not of rhetorical nature...leave your criticism here on the board.
Doug
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My question is: what exactly is therapeutic about any of these activities? What caused your parents to send you to Sagewalk, and how did those behaviors change when you came home?
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On 2005-07-25 13:34:00, dougm wrote:
"I don't know how to really dispell the myths about Sagewalk being a "boot camp" and students being "tortured and abused" other than just describing how a typical day went for me. This is rather long so pop some popcorn or something...
Day starts off by counselors calling 5 minutes. This means that everyone has 5 minutes to be dressed, have their sleeping bags hung on a tree, grab their food bags, and be sitting around the firepit. If everyone does not have this done by 5 minutes, everything gets put back the way it was, then you do it again until every thing is completed in the 5 minute slot. After this, there is hygeine. This involves filling your cup with water and soap, taking your rag and washing your face, hands and feet. I believe 8 or 10 minutes was given for hygeine. You had to be checked off by a counselor. If not everyone was checked off by a counselor in the allotted time, everyone had to do it again, although it was fairly easy the second time around, since most everyone was already clean and didnt need to do additional scrubbing. Then came breakfast, usually 20 minute time limit. Breakfast consisted of usually cold oats, with water, powdered milk, and then if you rationed well, brown sugar and raisins. If a fire was going, campers had the option of heating their oats, although only a few did so (I preferred my oats cold). You were required to eat at least 2 cups of oats, and one quart of water, both checked off (one girl forgot to check off that she had drank her quart of water, was forced to drink another and promptly vomited next to me) After this, you needed to clean your cup, which involved taking making mud and scrubbing the inside of your cup with it and rinsing it out until it was spotless. If everyone did not have their food eaten and cups cleaned by time limit, then spices would not be available for later meals (you needed to make 3 time limits in a row in order to have spices). All food that was prepared is required to be eaten, regardless if you feel full or the food doesn't taste good. Some people vomited because of this, including myself after using too much spice on my rice and lentils. After this, usually came some sort of planned activity, gathering firewood, some sort of group therapy, or when we were moved to a site in the Orinoco (?) Forest, day-hiking (food and water only, no packs) up mountains and through forests and what not (probably the most fun activity there, incredibly beautiful) although we couldn't really do this at the high desert site and apparently, SW has moved back there where I spent my first 10 days or so. Gathering firewood was rather difficult in the high desert, since we were required by both SW and BLM policy to take only dead and down trees. Lunch was usually very light, just some granola and another quart of water. Very easy to make time limit, if there was one (sometimes we would stop hiking and sit and snack then continue). This meal wasn't required, but was only taken away if the group was misbehaving (never taken away if we were hiking or going to hike). Afternoon activities were performed, sometimes our "homework", coursework that focused on goals, aspirations, management skills, etc. not your typical math, science, english etc. or more firewood collecting, therapy, etc. Dinner was usually at sunset or so (preceeded by hygeine again), since we could not really do much after dark anyways. Dinner was rice and lentils except for Wednesday nights and Thursday nights. Wednesday night, we were given dehydrated refried beans and tortillas, made absolutely amazing (well, in comparison to the rice and lentils) burritos and Thursday nights was Macaroni night, which if you still had some cheese (most was used during burrito night) could make mac and cheese. Even without cheese, however, just regular macaroni was much better tasting than the rice and lentils. Since Rice and Lentils take at least 20 minutes to cook on the fire, time limit was either 40 minutes or 60 minutes depending on behavior (longer time limit for better behavior). While food was cooking, we were required to write a page in our journals. We also had a moment of silence (controversial, i think) and this was also the time when most of the group therapy occurred, when counselors encouraged the campers to express greivances, whether it be with SW, the counselors themselves, other students, or just problems in general. Usually, this either allowed for compromise and conflict resolution, or sometimes flared tempers (some girl I remember believed in Creationism, which I was fine with, but then she started ripping on evolution, which I was not cool with). Food was then eaten, then cups cleaned, food bags put away and we were dismissed to bed. Although we did not have any concept of time of there other than what day it was, I could guess that we received at least 11-12 hours of sleep a night (7-8pm till 7-8am).
Perhaps the least fun activity, and the one with the most controversy, would be the hiking. This involved taking down camp, with a time limit, packing up, then hiking upwards of 8 miles. Taking down camp involved dismantling the shelter, usually 2 or so tarps tied up to trees with rope. Filling in the firepit, filling in the latrine, then rock and sticking it. Filling up the "reds" (small water jugs). Spilling excessive water from the reds would require you to lift a full "red" above your head 25 times yelling at the top of your lungs "I will not spill the red, this is for my safety (rep number)". After the camp was taken down, next (still during time limit) was to pack our packs...usually involved rolling our gray mats (what we sit on around the campfire) and our tarps up, strapping to the back of the pack, then filling our packs with our sleeping bags, extra clothes and food bags. Packs usually weighed somewhere around 80 (supposively) pounds, depending on how full the food bag was. In addition, several were assigned to carry the full "reds" (probably between 10-20 lbs) in their hands, and someone with the empty whites and siphon hose. Hiking was what you made of it. I had undiagnosed diabetes, I weighed 115 (when I finally got diagnosed and started insulin, I spiked at just under 150 lbs, 35 lbs weight gain in about 3 months) and was chronically fatigued. My first hike, we need to scale a small rock face, basically about 100 ft of steps. I fell over a few times and threw up. I was reassured by my peers that this was normal, and the counselors would make us continue until we reached our destination, regardless of fatigue level. The counselors gave us a break after 1/2 mile after we finished the rock face climb. After I got some water in me, I felt much much better and we hiked another 5 miles or so, me only falling over once more due to a misstep. I was also taught early on in my program that the biggest key to hiking is packing your pack correctly, putting your heavy stuff on top and making sure the waist straps are above your hips. After this tip, hiking was fairly easy, with the only real problem being overall fatigue from high blood sugar (all food is high in carbs to provide energy, which was not good for me). After hiking, camp set-up, opposite of camp take-down with time-limit. If camp setup or takedown took longer than time limit, rules dictated that we were supposed to re-do it all over again (45 minutes worth of work) but many times, the counselors, if they saw genuine effort and hustle (or if problems out of camper control came to light) they were pretty lienent.
I'm positive I've forgotten many things, or certain details are incorrect, it has been 3 years since I attended. If you have any questions as to other stuff, feel free to post them here, or im usually on AIM/AOL at phawktard. Please, if you're going to contact me on AIM, don't abuse this. I'm more than willing to answer questions as long as they're not of rhetorical nature...leave your criticism here on the board.
Doug
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Well, aint' that special.
Seriously, no offense Doug ... but your wilderness therapy experience reads like a Dear Diary entry.
Glad it "worked" for you but you are one of the lucky ones. Other kids have come home from wilderness therapy programs in body bags.
How's that for the ultiamte testimonial these programs can kill?
:idea:
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It's pretty much what I've heard from others who have been in this kind of program
I may be wrong but I think you'll wait a long time before most posters here thank you for your detailed account of what you remember---see--- you just didn't embellish it enough to make it acceptable to a lot of people here
But you do a great service by posting what you know is true---a lot of parents have kids in Sagewalk or some place similar right now---stories like yours give some perspective, what with the stories most people post here.
It reaffirms what we should all remember---it's about picking a good but demanding program---and remembering to consider the source when you hear people slamming any particular program---the questions have to be "How likely is this story to be true? and "What vested interest does the story teller have to either play up or play down the whole truth?"
Personally I don't think you sound like you have a need to either play the story up or down---it just sounds like someone honestly describing his own experience
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My question is: what exactly is therapeutic about any of these activities? What caused your parents to send you to Sagewalk, and how did those behaviors change when you came home?"
Good question.
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On 2005-07-25 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's pretty much what I've heard from others who have been in this kind of program
I may be wrong but I think you'll wait a long time before most posters here thank you for your detailed account of what you remember---see--- you just didn't embellish it enough to make it acceptable to a lot of people here
But you do a great service by posting what you know is true---a lot of parents have kids in Sagewalk or some place similar right now---stories like yours give some perspective, what with the stories most people post here.
It reaffirms what we should all remember---it's about picking a good but demanding program---and remembering to consider the source when you hear people slamming any particular program---the questions have to be "How likely is this story to be true? and "What vested interest does the story teller have to either play up or play down the whole truth?"
Personally I don't think you sound like you have a need to either play the story up or down---it just sounds like someone honestly describing his own experience"
Personally? I think you all have a problem accepting the fact that it is unethical and immoral to exploit children for profit.
:smokin:
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It's just that most people here have been in places too...and pretty much anything that deals with teaching kids that they can't trust themselves, things like when to stop eating, when to stop hiking, etc, is abusive by nature. It doesn't matter the context. That takes away your ability to take care of yourself. We feel full for a reason...because it's time to stop. Can't you see how sick this is? And they just make you keep going if you didn't check it off? God what is the point? Total submission that's what. Total submission so the parents can all feel happy again they haven't lost their little girl/boy.
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On 2005-07-25 13:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My question is: what exactly is therapeutic about any of these activities? What caused your parents to send you to Sagewalk, and how did those behaviors change when you came home?"
The "therapy" is really quite subtle, basically, you are given your basic needs in life and you are to "learn life" at a very simplistic level. You are forced to take care of yourself, which in the real world, these kids aren't doing. Another real positive aspect is for kids who abuse drugs (majority of the kids I was there with) is the sobering process. I personally have no qualms against drinking and smoking weed (I have done both since leaving the program) but abusing those plus more explicit drugs while a minor should not be tolerated by parents. The first couple of weeks sober is the most crucial time for addicts and what not to clean up. And since most of the kids there haven't been using for years upon years like many adults, they can usually leave the program without any sort of physical addiction (although the pyschological want can still be present).
The reason I was sent to Sagewalk was my behavior primarily. I was depressed, I was lethargic and unmotivated. I spent most of my waking hours on the computer, unless I was at school, but sleep took up most of my time (upwards of 14 hours a day). I was socially inept, no real friends (I sort of bounced around from clique to clique in HS). I ran away from home and attempted to drop out of school. I had no troubles with drugs or drinking at the time (typical experimentation with pot as a Freshman in HS and got drunk once about 3 months before I went to SW), my parents were just frustrated that I was unresponsive to the other forms of therapy and I refused to take medications at the time because I believed I was fine and it was my parents' fault for my problems. The final straw that sent me to SW was my dad driving me to school one day and then grabbing my arm and almost dragging me into school in front of pretty much everyone. I tried not to make a scene, but later I called him up at work and basically screamed "F*** YOU" into the phone and hung up. I was sent to SW 2 days later. The problem though, wasn't really pyschological though, I had undiagnosed diabetes. My blood sugar was sky high for over a year before I was finally diagnosed. The high blood sugar made me extremely fatigued, which caused me to sleep constantly and be slow and tired when I was awake.
As for my behavior changing after SW, not much changed. I was happy to be home for the first week or so. Then everything started to unwind, and I was admitted to the hospital a month after I left SW for suicidal thoughts. After I started insulin, 10 months after I left, it was almost a miracle, I gained 35 pounds in 3 months (115 to 150) and I got along fine with my parents. My parents were extremely apologetic about sending me to SW afterwards, but I couldn't be mad at anyone. No one knew, and you can't blame anyone for that. If one thing SW did for me was it really made me appreciate the little things, there were days after coming back where I would sit in a tub of warm water for hours on end. I attempted to purchase the same oats I had at SW and I ate a lot healthier afterwards (much more fruit in my diet)
So why do I support SageWalk if it didn't do much for me?
Seeing other kids, who had basically given up on themselves of ever amounting to anything, leaving the program excited to go back out and prove themselves. That's the stuff you don't hear on these forums of gloom and doom. Yes, I understand there have been death, some that could have been prevented. But for all the death and tragedy, there are many more stories of success that don't seem to be welcome here.
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Dear Diary entry? You betcha.
That was my intention from the get-go. I'm trying to show how the typical day went and how I don't see the program amounting towards "abuse and torture".
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On 2005-07-25 16:01:00, dougm wrote:
"
On 2005-07-25 13:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My question is: what exactly is therapeutic about any of these activities? What caused your parents to send you to Sagewalk, and how did those behaviors change when you came home?"
The "therapy" is really quite subtle, basically, you are given your basic needs in life and you are to "learn life" at a very simplistic level. You are forced to take care of yourself, which in the real world, these kids aren't doing. Another real positive aspect is for kids who abuse drugs (majority of the kids I was there with) is the sobering process. I personally have no qualms against drinking and smoking weed (I have done both since leaving the program) but abusing those plus more explicit drugs while a minor should not be tolerated by parents. The first couple of weeks sober is the most crucial time for addicts and what not to clean up. And since most of the kids there haven't been using for years upon years like many adults, they can usually leave the program without any sort of physical addiction (although the pyschological want can still be present).
The reason I was sent to Sagewalk was my behavior primarily. I was depressed, I was lethargic and unmotivated. I spent most of my waking hours on the computer, unless I was at school, but sleep took up most of my time (upwards of 14 hours a day). I was socially inept, no real friends (I sort of bounced around from clique to clique in HS). I ran away from home and attempted to drop out of school. I had no troubles with drugs or drinking at the time (typical experimentation with pot as a Freshman in HS and got drunk once about 3 months before I went to SW), my parents were just frustrated that I was unresponsive to the other forms of therapy and I refused to take medications at the time because I believed I was fine and it was my parents' fault for my problems. The final straw that sent me to SW was my dad driving me to school one day and then grabbing my arm and almost dragging me into school in front of pretty much everyone. I tried not to make a scene, but later I called him up at work and basically screamed "F*** YOU" into the phone and hung up. I was sent to SW 2 days later. The problem though, wasn't really pyschological though, I had undiagnosed diabetes. My blood sugar was sky high for over a year before I was finally diagnosed. The high blood sugar made me extremely fatigued, which caused me to sleep constantly and be slow and tired when I was awake.
As for my behavior changing after SW, not much changed. I was happy to be home for the first week or so. Then everything started to unwind, and I was admitted to the hospital a month after I left SW for suicidal thoughts. After I started insulin, 10 months after I left, it was almost a miracle, I gained 35 pounds in 3 months (115 to 150) and I got along fine with my parents. My parents were extremely apologetic about sending me to SW afterwards, but I couldn't be mad at anyone. No one knew, and you can't blame anyone for that. If one thing SW did for me was it really made me appreciate the little things, there were days after coming back where I would sit in a tub of warm water for hours on end. I attempted to purchase the same oats I had at SW and I ate a lot healthier afterwards (much more fruit in my diet)
So why do I support SageWalk if it didn't do much for me?
Seeing other kids, who had basically given up on themselves of ever amounting to anything, leaving the program excited to go back out and prove themselves. That's the stuff you don't hear on these forums of gloom and doom. Yes, I understand there have been death, some that could have been prevented. But for all the death and tragedy, there are many more stories of success that don't seem to be welcome here."
It's not that those stories aren't welcome here, it's that most of us have been in a facility and have been haunted by it ever since. By definition alone that is a failed program. Most of us are adults, long past our so called rebellious youth, and *have* learned to take care of ourselves, and usually we learn this is very different skill from the skills we picked up as a result of our incarceration. We can clearly see when you are teaching kids that they are not to be trusted, and that everything is their fault, life gets harder. You are right though...they *may* be less angry for a while, they may appreciate things more, but what is the underlying lesson? What's behind that stuff is WAY more important than a few surfacey improvements/changes. To basically ignore the warning signals you get from situations and push on through. You should know this lesson better than anyone, you were put into a program, a therapeutic program, for a medical issue. You could sue for that. That's what I've been talking about...professionals are supposed to tell people their options, and people with physical symptoms like that are supposed to be told to see a doctor for a thorough checkup. You are a perfect example of why. You say they didn't know...the reality of the situation is that counselors are trained in school to look for possible medical illnesses. And to refer people to a medical doctor if it seems possible that could be the cause. Look it up, it's in the DSM-IV the Bible for making diagnoses. The real reason they probably overlooked that---exactly because of their mentality that you can't be trusted, you are always to blame.
IMO, a physically intense program like that is completely negligent if it doesnt check the medical condition of ALL of its clients to make sure they are actually in good health before they march them through "blizzards" as they call it.
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I understand I was put in a program for a medical reason. I had seen my family doctor before and I described my symptoms and what not, I looked up the symptoms online and suggested a thyroid problem. He checked it just to humor I suppose but didn't suspect anything more than just perhaps "growing up". So it wasn't as if it was just neglect by the counselors, I was seen by a doctor about my symptoms, then received another physical (blood was not taken, however) before I went to SW. The counselors are not to blame for not diagnosing me. My case was also extremely uncommon that I didn't develop my Type 1 until the teenage years. Most people are diagnosed as young kids.
As for suing, it seems this site revolves on empty threats of legal action. But if I were to hypothetically sue SW for negligence, what would I sue for? Monetary compensation? haha. Or even better, how about suing my parents? The people who didn't spoil me despite having the means to do so. The people who spent hours upon hours attempting to get me the help I needed, regardless if it was in vain.
I understood that my actions warranted my parents sending me there. I know that the parents have problems too, but for the likes of me, I still cannot understand how *all* the focus is on the fault of the parents, and none of the children. Are they/we not to be held responsible for our actions anymore?
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On 2005-07-25 17:13:00, dougm wrote:
"I understand I was put in a program for a medical reason. I had seen my family doctor before and I described my symptoms and what not, I looked up the symptoms online and suggested a thyroid problem. He checked it just to humor I suppose but didn't suspect anything more than just perhaps "growing up". So it wasn't as if it was just neglect by the counselors, I was seen by a doctor about my symptoms, then received another physical (blood was not taken, however) before I went to SW. The counselors are not to blame for not diagnosing me. My case was also extremely uncommon that I didn't develop my Type 1 until the teenage years. Most people are diagnosed as young kids.
As for suing, it seems this site revolves on empty threats of legal action. But if I were to hypothetically sue SW for negligence, what would I sue for? Monetary compensation? haha. Or even better, how about suing my parents? The people who didn't spoil me despite having the means to do so. The people who spent hours upon hours attempting to get me the help I needed, regardless if it was in vain.
I understood that my actions warranted my parents sending me there. I know that the parents have problems too, but for the likes of me, I still cannot understand how *all* the focus is on the fault of the parents, and none of the children. Are they/we not to be held responsible for our actions anymore?"
I really do appreciate your posts here, you seem very level-headed and reasonable. However...a few things stand out to me. You yourself believed that something medical was wrong with you. You looked it up and had a better idea what was wrong with you than either your doctor or counselor. Does that not strike you as odd? And why would your doctor just "humor" you? I would think he should have taken it very seriously. And was nobody listening to what you were trying to say or tell them? You believed so much that something was wrong you looked up all the symptoms and did research yourself. But then it seems you and others doubted your own experience of what was truly wrong. That is a problem when talking about professionals.
As far as suing goes, understand that would be your choice. If it was me, and I thought it was an honest mistake, I probably wouldn't be interested in suing. But if I thought it was negligence bordering on maliciousness, I might feel differently. What would you sue for? That would depend on you too. I would sue just to let others know that the place wasn't all it claimed to be, and to potentially save someone from going through what I did.
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I believed something was wrong with me, but I trusted the doctor. I don't blame the doctor either, the only real symptoms that I described was my weight loss and chronic tiredness. But I was still able to function at some level, so the doctor probably believed my symptoms were not anything serious. Had I described that I was also eating and drinking like a horse (2 gallons of fluid a day, constant urination, lots and lots of food), he probably could've made some sort of diagnosis, but my failure to put two and two together equates to me shooting myself in the foot. Also saying the doctor was "humoring" me was an exagerration. I asked him "Could it be Hyper/Hypothyroidism?" and he listed the symptoms, half of which fit, so I said, "well, kinda". He, then, checked my thyroid by pressing on my throat, didn't find anything out of the ordinary. To my credit, I had the right idea with something being wrong with my endocrine system :grin:
With the suing, I just don't believe in suing. It's part me being anti-lawyer and part me not seeing how I could possibly benefit for any other reason than greed.
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What did you end up doing for the hyperthyroidism? I was also diagnosed with that when in a psychiatric hospital once, and even went to see an endo doc, but his talk of radiation and stuff scared me off. I just choose to live with it. I am curious if anything you have done has helped. I am being completely serious, program opinions aside, I am just curious. Thanks.
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Wilderness Therapy SHOULD BE VOLUNTARY like REAL THERAPY.
Funny how many Stepfordish program parents and kids swear they "tried everything" except family therapy before resorting to sending the kid away for some expensive "accountability".
It's a racket, Doug.
Face it. Therapy in the Woods for $20k?
Get Real!
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:razz: That's true...those were some expensive oats!
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On 2005-07-25 18:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What did you end up doing for the hyperthyroidism? I was also diagnosed with that when in a psychiatric hospital once, and even went to see an endo doc, but his talk of radiation and stuff scared me off. I just choose to live with it. I am curious if anything you have done has helped. I am being completely serious, program opinions aside, I am just curious. Thanks. "
Didn't have hyperthyroidism. Turned out to be Type 1 Diabetes. Both are endocrine disorders, so symptoms are somewhat similar. That's what threw me off.
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Ah, thanks.
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On 2005-07-25 18:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wilderness Therapy SHOULD BE VOLUNTARY like REAL THERAPY.
Funny how many Stepfordish program parents and kids swear they "tried everything" except family therapy before resorting to sending the kid away for some expensive "accountability".
It's a racket, Doug.
Face it. Therapy in the Woods for $20k?
Get Real!
"
LOL, went to family therapy, many times. Nice try, though. :wink:
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On 2005-07-25 19:58:00, dougm wrote:
"
On 2005-07-25 18:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wilderness Therapy SHOULD BE VOLUNTARY like REAL THERAPY.
Funny how many Stepfordish program parents and kids swear they "tried everything" except family therapy before resorting to sending the kid away for some expensive "accountability".
It's a racket, Doug.
Face it. Therapy in the Woods for $20k?
Get Real!
"
LOL, went to family therapy, many times. Nice try, though. :roll:
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Doug, were you escorted to Sage Walk or did you go willingly?
Were your parents "referred" by someone? How did they hear about SW?
What about the other kids? What was the percentage of kids taken by force to SW?
Have you heard of Outward Bound? Do you know they do NOT take kids brought to them by abductors for hire?
Gee, wonder why? Could it be they have more respect for Mother Nature than to exploit it like these other programs do?
Pass the lentils, please?
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I was taken involuntarily in the middle of the night. I'm not sure as to how my parents were referred to SW. By the sounds of it, most other kids were either escourted against their will or they were duped into going. As for "abductors for hire" I was escourted by a family friend. Still have no idea why you believe the profit motive is the main reason behind this, do you know how much insurance these places require?
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Who is the CEO, you can probably look up his salary on Hoovers. Or maybe Guidestar if its a "nonprofit."
I honestly don't think it's mostly the money but I do bet they make a lot more than most counselors. I think though that they truly believe that they know something that NEEDS to be passed on to others. That's really the heart of what I see as the problem with them. They think they are the only and best solution. That's just not true or ethical for these people to act like. They should have a very small and well defined population and stick to that, and take that very seriously....assuming that their approach has any merit at all, which I am not really sure of. But...there are PLENTY of other types of programs out there that do not use these methods and are at least if not more successful than this. And taking kids by force...I think that speaks for itself.
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Unless its really a severe case where their lives are in danger or something.
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Who's motivation isn't money when starting a business? These are not non-profits here people, they are in business for ONE reason-- to make money. To say otherwise really shows your ignorance.
Do you realize ANYONE, any one of us who posts on this board could go and start a wilderness program? A residential teen program? In MANY states.
Maybe I should start one....?
My motivation is money! And I already know how I can dupe parents, and manipulate kids... what a great business idea.
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PLUS-- I can get people to defend my program for free! Would you defend my program ? It sounds like some of the program trolls will defend any program, so I hope you will help me sell my program. Thanks in advance, we don't want any ex-students coming by and ruining the gravy train. Remember, you can't believe what they say.. um.. they are drug addits- yeah..
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I had a kid in a program, not happy to go at all, doing great now several years down the road.
As parents, part of the program was showing us how we had been part of the problems our kid developed, not in a blaming way or an accusing way--because kids make choices too--but to show us how to be better parents and better human being
I'll say straight out that we apologized to our kid many times for the part we played in setting up the whole tragedy to happen. But it's also true that our relationship is stronger than it ever was and the apologies have gone both ways
I can honestly say that our kid has forgiven us completely for our inadequacies and we can offer complete forgiveness also And I don't think we could have done this without the parent training part of the program which was so much more than any family counseling that I've ever heard of
To Doug: if it's something that's not too personal for you to discuss how did you reconcile with your parents and what part if any did parent education play in the program you've described
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About the money issue--
I just believe that these types of people often times truly believe they know "the answer." They feel so strongly about it they think they are obligated to spread it to as many people as possible. It's that belief that makes them so extreme and so willing to use extreme methods to change kids, even if it means doing what most others would call abuse. I don't believe they see it that way. Do they want to make money? Of course. I bet they make a lot of money. My guess would be based on some other places I've looked at....maybe $70 or $80,000. That's a LOT more than your average counselor. But I think they believe they deserve that too.
About the parent who apologized to their son...that is great if you were in a program that didn't blame everything on the kid. That is exactly what I think needs to be done...see who has done what. I also believe residential therapy should be a very last resort, and that if they do things like tell you they are your only hope and restrict communication between you and your child, I would NEVER trust such a place. Regardless of anything else.
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Re: Insurance
That's the cost of doing business and quite frankly, explains in part why these places can cost upwards of $300-400 a day.
Let's do the math (using *conservative* numbers)
$300 x 30 days (per kid) = $9,000
9k x 9 kids = $81,000 a month
$81k x 12 months = $972,000 a year
Naw, it's not the money.
Greed is Good.
:silly:
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Doug,
You can find the Oregon Regulations for Wilderness here:
http://www.wilderness-programs.org/Regu ... Oregon.htm (http://www.wilderness-programs.org/Regulations/OutdoorYouthProgramsOregon.htm)
Compared to other states I?ve read (Utah, Ga, Tx) they are particularly lame. Leaves a lot of decisions and policies to the program owner. On many issues, which the state would normally dictate, it has been left to the program to ?create and implement? its own policies.
FOOD:
The narrator on BC said the teens ?must? consume 1800 calories- used as an excuse to justify forcing the kid to eat oat mush until he puked. USDA and Oregon Regs state 3,000 given their level of physical exertion and cold weather. That means you provide a minimum of 3,000 calories and have extra on hand. It would not allow for ?rationing? to denying food as punishment.
Based on the ?menu? you provided: 2c dry oats, 1c dry milk, raisins, 2c granola, 1c rice, 1c lentils- we?re talking 1300 calories, at best. A long way from 3,000. Not even half of what?s recommended.
And WHO eats plain, dry oats? Followed by a quart of water? That?s going to expand in the gut. It certainly will give one a sense of fullness, and could cause anyone to puke.
You mentioned that lunch was optional. If so, then why force feed them 2c dry oats and a quart of water at breakfast? And why force them to eat all they prepare? Especially early on. I?m sure they have no idea that the rice, oats and lentils are going to double or triple in volume after cooked. What kind of spice made you vomit? FYI, it would never be considered appropriate to force children to eat in any child caring institution or situation, and certainly inappropriate to take away any meal as punishment, as you say was the case with lunch. How could they begin to consider taking away any meal when they as so far below the caloric recommendations to begin with?
I don?t think you understand how unconscionable this ?treatment? is. And unnecessary. This would not fly anywhere but a program. It flies because the owners of the programs in Oregon had a hand in the creation of the regulations.
Imagine this: a group of daycare owners dictating to the state the rules they will be subject to. Ha! Would never happen. And a daycare owner would be out of business if s/he did any of these things.
You can teach teens how to ?take care of themselves?, even in the wilderness, without going to such austere and extreme measures. There is another MO operating here- deprivation/ submission.
And what if you didn?t find firewood? How would you prepare rice/lentils and/or stay warm at night?
Hygiene: You wash in the same cup you eat from? Same rag everyday?
And clean your cup after eating, with mud? Nowhere else would this be allowed.
What provisions were there for wash your hands after visiting the latrine?
Packs: You weighted 115# and carried an 80# pack? They aren?t supposed to exceed 30% of the participant?s weight (38# in your case). Plus water jugs- 10-20#? Plus rocks for cussing?
I hope someone in Oregon who can act on the information you provided, and the BC series, is paying attention.
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This is supposed to be a wilderness program, you know, hardship, endurance,spartan, all that?
All you're doing--from your comfortable seat by a computer terminal--is regurgitate stupid lame bureaucratic rules from various governmental entities---I'd much rather leave setting the limits to somebody who is actually a wilderness type--not some lame bureaucrat who is even more sessile than your average poster here
Maybe this program sounds rigorous to you but obviously kids are getting through it fine (and don't give me a bunch of crap about some rare case where a kid with a disease or something died in one of these programs---that's not what we're talking about here and you know it)
And bottom line: it helped Doug among (I bet) plenty of others: I'll take the word of somebody who was actually in the program over somebody talking about it on a computer terminal (like you) any day of the week
Admit it--you just hate these programs and are looking for any old way to nit pick at them
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On 2005-07-26 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And bottom line: it helped Doug among (I bet) plenty of others: I'll take the word of somebody who was actually in the program over somebody talking about it on a computer terminal (like you) any day of the week"
Bottom line: I have personal experience with a program and don't feel they are beneficial. Since I am on a computer terminal, am I unbelievable? Are you not on a computer-- please enlighten us?
Admit it--you just hate these programs and are looking for any old way to nit pick at them
:roll: Sometimes you think you are speaking to adults and then they say something like this.
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This programs are pulling in an easy million bucks a year with little to no overhead.
I mean, they hike on free land, do they not?
The parents pay for all the supplies.
This is a virtual gold mine.
Don't let the teen helper wannabee's fool ya.
It's the money, stupid.
:rofl:
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We're not just a bunch of people who don't like this place. Most of us on here were in places that also tried to completely break our spirits, minds, and anything else they could all in the name of LOVE. We know the same thing when we see it in another program and also are very aware that those who go through it and come out believing in the program are probably not thinking for themselves or are even aware of what just happened to them. That's their goal and what these sorts of places are designed to do. We know what it is because we've been there.
How did you get your opinion on the place?
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Yeah since when did brainwashing people become synonymous with Love. Yeah...I love my boyfriend so much that whenever he does things that aren't good, I simply lock him in the house, only feed him a slice of bread a day, tell him over and over how "bad" he is and how much I love him, and make him talk about how he feels. When he starts talking about how sorry he is for everything, then I start to give him some more bread. After all, he's really earned it. He's worked hard and is starting to realize what true Love is. After a time, I let him out in the backyard, but only under close supervision. You see, he is still fairly "bad" and must be monitored. It's for his own good. He is slowly starting to realize just how much I love him, and becomes more thankful for my close and loving attention. He starts to agree with me more. I let him in the front yard. One day, I let him write in his diary, although I go later while he is asleep and read the entry. I read all about how grateful he is for my loving care. How much he has grown and how he hopes one day to be able to earn my trust. The next day I reward him with a tuna sandwich. He is delighted!! We both have a great day.
ETC....
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On 2005-07-26 14:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah since when did brainwashing people become synonymous with Love. Yeah...I love my boyfriend so much that whenever he does things that aren't good, I simply lock him in the house, only feed him a slice of bread a day, tell him over and over how "bad" he is and how much I love him, and make him talk about how he feels. When he starts talking about how sorry he is for everything, then I start to give him some more bread. After all, he's really earned it. He's worked hard and is starting to realize what true Love is. After a time, I let him out in the backyard, but only under close supervision. You see, he is still fairly "bad" and must be monitored. It's for his own good. He is slowly starting to realize just how much I love him, and becomes more thankful for my close and loving attention. He starts to agree with me more. I let him in the front yard. One day, I let him write in his diary, although I go later while he is asleep and read the entry. I read all about how grateful he is for my loving care. How much he has grown and how he hopes one day to be able to earn my trust. The next day I reward him with a tuna sandwich. He is delighted!! We both have a great day.
ETC...."
Yep, and to think some parents think they can actually buy their kid's love and respect for $40k.
Just re-engineer their hearts and minds.
Yep, that'll do the trick.
I'll get a brand new teen. One that thinks and acts like Mommy and Daddy's little boy.
How many times have we heard this lunatic parents say ... "I GOT MY LITTLE BOY/GIRL BACK" ???
This behavior mod training is regressive.
Strips kids of their critical thinking skills and leaves them hungry for any kind of attention at all.
Sick heads!
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Sorry, not legal for any child caring facility to be 'spartan' when it comes to food, hygiene, and such.
The 'one who was in the program' doesn't realize that what he experienced is considered abuse by most resonable people and licensing agencies.
His parents would no longer have custody if they'd subjected him to the very same 'treatment' and go caught.
Kids who are beat with belts think they're just being disciplined too, cause that's how they'be been taught to perceive it. And that they deserve it. And that's it's the only way to discipline.
Why don't you stick with the specific points anon? Why limited calories, and unpleasant choices, and no variety? There are so many other ways in which they could torture. Or would they be as effective if the kids weren't starved or puking from being forced to eat crap?
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On 2005-07-26 12:50:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Doug,
You can find the Oregon Regulations for Wilderness here:
http://www.wilderness-programs.org/Regu ... Oregon.htm (http://www.wilderness-programs.org/Regulations/OutdoorYouthProgramsOregon.htm)
Compared to other states I?ve read (Utah, Ga, Tx) they are particularly lame. Leaves a lot of decisions and policies to the program owner. On many issues, which the state would normally dictate, it has been left to the program to ?create and implement? its own policies.
FOOD:
The narrator on BC said the teens ?must? consume 1800 calories- used as an excuse to justify forcing the kid to eat oat mush until he puked. USDA and Oregon Regs state 3,000 given their level of physical exertion and cold weather. That means you provide a minimum of 3,000 calories and have extra on hand. It would not allow for ?rationing? to denying food as punishment.
Based on the ?menu? you provided: 2c dry oats, 1c dry milk, raisins, 2c granola, 1c rice, 1c lentils- we?re talking 1300 calories, at best. A long way from 3,000. Not even half of what?s recommended.
And WHO eats plain, dry oats? Followed by a quart of water? That?s going to expand in the gut. It certainly will give one a sense of fullness, and could cause anyone to puke.
You mentioned that lunch was optional. If so, then why force feed them 2c dry oats and a quart of water at breakfast? And why force them to eat all they prepare? Especially early on. I?m sure they have no idea that the rice, oats and lentils are going to double or triple in volume after cooked. What kind of spice made you vomit? FYI, it would never be considered appropriate to force children to eat in any child caring institution or situation, and certainly inappropriate to take away any meal as punishment, as you say was the case with lunch. How could they begin to consider taking away any meal when they as so far below the caloric recommendations to begin with?
I don?t think you understand how unconscionable this ?treatment? is. And unnecessary. This would not fly anywhere but a program. It flies because the owners of the programs in Oregon had a hand in the creation of the regulations.
Imagine this: a group of daycare owners dictating to the state the rules they will be subject to. Ha! Would never happen. And a daycare owner would be out of business if s/he did any of these things.
You can teach teens how to ?take care of themselves?, even in the wilderness, without going to such austere and extreme measures. There is another MO operating here- deprivation/ submission.
And what if you didn?t find firewood? How would you prepare rice/lentils and/or stay warm at night?
Hygiene: You wash in the same cup you eat from? Same rag everyday?
And clean your cup after eating, with mud? Nowhere else would this be allowed.
What provisions were there for wash your hands after visiting the latrine?
Packs: You weighted 115# and carried an 80# pack? They aren?t supposed to exceed 30% of the participant?s weight (38# in your case). Plus water jugs- 10-20#? Plus rocks for cussing?
I hope someone in Oregon who can act on the information you provided, and the BC series, is paying attention.
"
The amounts I described were bare minimums. You could eat anywhere from 2 cups to a full cup (5 cups). Yes, most kids during the first couple of days out will puke at least once, but not because they're forced to eat too much but rather because it just doesn't taste very well. No "force feeding" happens, you just sit there until the food is consumed. As for rationing, if you run out of a luxury (brown sugar, raisins, granola, cheese, sausage, powdered milk etc), you're out of luck, but for R/L and Oats, they will supply you with more.
I don't know where your calorie assumptions are coming from, but I know for a fact that there is much more than 1,300 calories consumed a day. Did you notice a theme with all the base foods, Oats, Granola and R/L? All are high-carbohydrate foods.
Oats were not eaten plain and dry, oats were supplemented with water, powdered milk, brown sugar and raisins (assuming you had rationed well, which really wasn't difficult). The oats were my favorite meal by the end of the program. I liked the granola a lot at the beginning of the program but by the end, it tasted *too sweet*, go figure :grin:. Oats did not expand in the stomach, never had that problem, nor did anyone else. Uncooked R/L hurt like a ($*#(* though.
The requirement of oats in the morning was to ensure some calories/energy. Why force them to eat everything they prepare? Well technically, we don't have anywhere to throw the food away. If the food was discarded, it would easily attract many scavengers. That and its just principle, why waste?
The counselors explicitly told new kids to the program to start with 2 cups of R/L and this was also reiterated by other campers heavily. There was no attempt to deceive me into eating more. I can't remember all the spices that I put into the R/L I had that night, but I know I had put some salt and garlic powder in there. I know there was more in there, and I put too much in.
I believe there was only one night we did not have firewood, we had hiked a long ways to a new camp, it was after dark by the time we reached the campsite, so before we did camp setup, we ate oats instead of the R/L and then setup and slept.
As for the whole temperature factor. I experienced everywhere from 80 degrees at thebeginning of my program in October at the High desert site to -16 one night in the mountains in Decemeber. I know what these kids on BC are experiencing. If they're complaining about being cold, it's because they're too damn whiny. We were issued sleeping bags that are rated -20 degrees F. These puppies kept me frickin' blazing despite the below zero temperatures. That and we were given more damned winter clothing than I have ever owned in my entire life, and I live in Minnesota! Nothing pisses me off more than hearing people complain about the weather! At my program, it was *only* the girls that complained. One guy's sleeping bag was torn and became ineffective during a cold streak. The counselors were unable to get him a sleeping bag that night (too late). So what did he do? Him and 2 other guys created a burrito and kept his ass warm throughout the night, no complaints. Now that's %*#$(*ing camaraderie!
Yes, we ate from the same cup we washed with, cups and rags were both cleaned and checked prior to food consumption.
Mud was used to clean cups. Extremely effective cleaner, as it can get char off the side of the cups from the fire. Sounds unsanitary but it really isn't. Mud was rinsed from cup after cleaning and required a check-off.
We were given Purell anti-bacterial stuff after we used the latrine.
About the packs, in retrospect, the packs were definitely not 80 pounds, I can't remember where I got that number, but thinking about it, it was not that much. It was definitely at least 50 though. Water jugs were carried by hand, not on the pack itself, and rocks were usually carried in pockets, not the pack.
Still not seeing how this amounts to mistreatment. Seems fairly tough, but it is doable for anybody. And if anything, it builds character. The reason I stumbled upon this forum was an attempt to get ahold of another kid that I attended the program with. We both actually *wanted* by the end of our programs to go camping very similar to what we had done at SW (sans time-limits and R/L, LOL).
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This is a great thread despite tempers flaring. I like hearing both sides and now for my own two cents.
I went through a 'wilderness challenge' when I was fifteen. This was in 1976 and I guess the rules and perceptions were different.
Doug, we were not required to eat food we did not like. We were not forced to run 'fire drill' routines against the clock. We were allowed to cuss (which was cool since school and home forbade it). Drugs, cigarettes, sex, and weapons were forbidden. Some kids actually complained about not being allowed to smoke. No one took my three inch pocket knife away.
Instead of wasting time with this negative, spirit breaking stuff, we engaged in cool activities like trust falls, trust walks, making and crossing rope bridges, navigating obstacle courses where many obstacles required us to work as a team to get the whole team across. We went rock climbing and rapelling (sp?). It was fun. No body tried to escape; not even those who were court ordered to be there.
We did the same kind of therapy you descibe, but we had no 'impact letters.' Instead we made our own (list things you wish to change about yourself and what you can do to make that change). We laughed, cried, hugged, and had a great time and grew close.
And it worked just as well if not better than these, 'whip the kids into shape' nonsense activities.
One funny story is that at the beginning of the trip, I snuck two, one-pound cans of Dinty Moore beef stew into my pack. Later, when I got caught, a counselor said, 'If you can carry it, you can keep it.' I shared it with everyone (counselors, too) around a snowy campsite one night and was a hero.
I look back at the experience with fondness. That is how it should be.
I object to the treatment of the kids not because of specific abuses, but because of the lack of respect for the individual it shows. You don't teach people to be independent and responsible by riding them every minute, making them eat food, making them perform minor routines against the clock (and their will) and forcing them to agree to an ideology they just don't agree with. This only results in anger and resentment or situational adaptation. It doesn't work and the NIH did a years long study that concluded it doesn't work.
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Deborah is either a soft pampered type who thinks that anything out of her pampered world is "torture"--- or she is a disingenuous fake person who is trying to make any kind of rigorous demanding program sound the same as beating a kid with a belt to use her example just because she hates any program and wants to tear them all down
Mighty glad I'm not her kid, bet her kid is messed up plenty, not cuz of any program, but cuz she's his parent
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On 2005-07-26 17:37:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"This is a great thread despite tempers flaring. I like hearing both sides and now for my own two cents.
I went through a 'wilderness challenge' when I was fifteen. This was in 1976 and I guess the rules and perceptions were different.
Doug, we were not required to eat food we did not like. We were not forced to run 'fire drill' routines against the clock. We were allowed to cuss (which was cool since school and home forbade it). Drugs, cigarettes, sex, and weapons were forbidden. Some kids actually complained about not being allowed to smoke. No one took my three inch pocket knife away.
Instead of wasting time with this negative, spirit breaking stuff, we engaged in cool activities like trust falls, trust walks, making and crossing rope bridges, navigating obstacle courses where many obstacles required us to work as a team to get the whole team across. We went rock climbing and rapelling (sp?). It was fun. No body tried to escape; not even those who were court ordered to be there.
We did the same kind of therapy you descibe, but we had no 'impact letters.' Instead we made our own (list things you wish to change about yourself and what you can do to make that change). We laughed, cried, hugged, and had a great time and grew close.
And it worked just as well if not better than these, 'whip the kids into shape' nonsense activities.
One funny story is that at the beginning of the trip, I snuck two, one-pound cans of Dinty Moore beef stew into my pack. Later, when I got caught, a counselor said, 'If you can carry it, you can keep it.' I shared it with everyone (counselors, too) around a snowy campsite one night and was a hero.
I look back at the experience with fondness. That is how it should be.
I object to the treatment of the kids not because of specific abuses, but because of the lack of respect for the individual it shows. You don't teach people to be independent and responsible by riding them every minute, making them eat food, making them perform minor routines against the clock (and their will) and forcing them to agree to an ideology they just don't agree with. This only results in anger and resentment or situational adaptation. It doesn't work and the NIH did a years long study that concluded it doesn't work."
Well said!
Can you tell us the name of your program and also, post a link to the NIH study?
I think Outward Bound is a great program but they are highly selective of the kids they take (none by force, for example) and they are not punitive nor exploitive.
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Doug,
I beg to differ with you. I saw on national TV a staff member standing over a kid making him eat burned oat mush that looked like crap. The kid was gagging. Staff told him that if he threw up he?d have to ?dig a new hole?. Whatever that means. The narrator calmly explained that they ?must eat 1800 calories per day?, justifying force.
You contradict yourself later by saying that they were forced to eat all they prepared, to avoid critters and waste. For future reference, a really good way to discard unwanted food is to dig a hole and bury it, then pee on it.
FYI, I wasn?t implying that they were attempting to deceive you into eating more. I saw the very real possibility and likelihood of a kid cooking way more than they could consume, due to ignorance, and then being forced to eat it.
As for the calories, you can calculate them yourself using the USDA calorie chart:
http://adam.about.com/care/weightloss/w ... chart.html (http://adam.about.com/care/weightloss/weight_calchart.html)
Yes, I noticed that all the food was hi-carb. How about some nuts and seeds?
It may not have been a problem for you but, all grain and beans expand in water. How did you choke down uncooked rice and lentils? And why would you? I?d imagine that they would be damn near impossible to digest.
Regarding the temperature. A lot of kids are from warmer climates. It can take years to acclimate to a different climate. Some, who make radical moves never fully acclimate. How whiny would you have been if they had sent you to the blazing desert in Utah or Arizona, hiking in 90-100* temperatures. Might?ve been a wee bit warmer than you are accustomed. Not surprising that the girls were the ones to complain.
And speaking of girls? and you may not know the answer, but perhaps there is a female amongst us that does. Where and how did they dispose of their used FH products? I mean, talk about attracting predators.
I can appreciate your comments regarding camaraderie. Both my sons were in programs 4 years apart (against my wishes) and their only fond members are of a few people they met there. Doesn?t excuse the abuse. Why are you searching for your comrades on the internet? Why don?t these programs allow the kids to exchange contact info?
The whole washing in the same cup you eat from is just not sanitary, and I have to wonder how many of the vomiting incidents were due to unsanitary conditions rather than bland food.
I feel certain the kids are carrying more weight than they should. Compare what you said with Utah Regs (not that the programs in Utah necessary comply):
Regs state that packs: shall not exceed 20 percent of the consumer's body weight. If the consumer is required to carry other items, the total of all weight carried shall not exceed 30% of the consumer's body weight.
Under Utah Regs your pack should not have weighed more than 23# and total weight of everything, including water and rocks, should not have exceeded 35#.
Sounds like you made the best of a bad situation. Good that you didn?t leave with a negative association- hating nature.
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"I saw on national TV...", this sums up Deborah.
"It can take years to acclimate to a different climate." Oh grow up----you relentlessly silly woman---people---especially young people---are a lot more resilient than you try to make them out to be--
And here you are, apparently worried about sanitary napkins that might be found by predators...and choking on uncooked lentils for God's sake...I think the camp people can handle all this City Girl
News flash, Deborah: these kids in the Brat Camp programs---nd the various othe programs you try to drum up complaints against---are NOT YOUR CHILDREN
Their own parents will make the determination of what is needed in their lives. It's not your business--so get a hobby or something to fill your days
Seems to me that this is all about avoiding how badly you managed the upbringing of your own children---by concentrating in things outside of that central issue(yeah I hear that you didn't want your kids in program--but why did your husband--and/or the courts---put them there: you obviously hadn't done a stellar job in bringing them up to be productive citizens)
These programs are doing good---leave them alone---what good are you doing with your endless, detailed clueless posts that transparently try to portray evil and danger where there is really possibility and potential???
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On 2005-07-26 20:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I saw on national TV...", this sums up Deborah.
"It can take years to acclimate to a different climate." Oh grow up----you relentlessly silly woman---people---especially young people---are a lot more resilient than you try to make them out to be--
And here you are, apparently worried about sanitary napkins that might be found by predators...and choking on uncooked lentils for God's sake...I think the camp people can handle all this City Girl
News flash, Deborah: these kids in the Brat Camp programs---nd the various othe programs you try to drum up complaints against---are NOT YOUR CHILDREN
Their own parents will make the determination of what is needed in their lives. It's not your business--so get a hobby or something to fill your days
Seems to me that this is all about avoiding how badly you managed the upbringing of your own children---by concentrating in things outside of that central issue(yeah I hear that you didn't want your kids in program--but why did your husband--and/or the courts---put them there: you obviously hadn't done a stellar job in bringing them up to be productive citizens)
These programs are doing good---leave them alone---what good are you doing with your endless, detailed clueless posts that transparently try to portray evil and danger where there is really possibility and potential???
"
Jeez, looks like Deborah is a real thorn in your side Anon. That's good. Maybe you can try arguing facts instead of relying on personal attacks?
The question about FH, was a legitmate one. In fact, it was a damn good question.
Got an answer????
:silly:
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I don't think your tone is constructive.
I have read dozens of articles on this subject and consulted with friends and family. My sister has a PHD in adolecsent psycology, my wife is a board certified psychiatrist. My wife has worked in drug and alcohol rehabilitation programs, in prisons, and with the homeless. She pointed out the success ratios these programs claim are insane. If they use follow-up at all, they use unreliable self surveys. A kid is not going to risk going back by telling the company that runs his program that he has fallen back into his old habits.
Both my wife and sister informed me about something called 'situational adaptation.' It is a problem in almost all rehabilition programs. It is basically similar to Stockholm Syndrome. The patient in the rehab program will genuinely change their psycology to reduce the negative stresses the programs place on them. They are not faking it, and so appear to be helped. but when the program is over, the adopted behavour doesn't stick. Thus coercive programs usually don't work. A person has to want to change. They cannot be forced.
I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but there are just too many bad stories out there to ignore.
To me it is simply unconscionable to place a child in a situation where they are isolated and in the hands of strangers. If abuse does occur, they have no recourse and no one will believe them. I would not let my children go to SW anymore than I would let them sleep in Michael Jackson's bed. I don't care if he was aquitted, it just ain't right.
The program I attended was called simply Wildnerness Challenge. I don't know much of the details because I never looked into it, but it was not a for profit affair. It was sponsored by the school district. The director was reputed to be a survivalist expert who had trekked to the N. Pole. The groups were chaperoned, yup, along with our guides/counselors we had chaperons. In my group, our chaperons included my eighth grade english teacher and the principal to the school where I attended sixth grade. I had adults I knew and trusted with me.
The program was offered through the high school. I don't know how all the kids were recruited. I was convinced to go by a friendly 'intervention' of kids and teachers I knew. They talked me into it. It was only after the program that I was informed by one of the kids that they had been instructed not to let me leave the room until I agreed. That stung a bit.
Of the eight kids in my group, three of them were my classmates. The program was essentially, community based. I remember how it made me feel good to know these people all cared about me.
Oh, I was just told to add the following:
These for profit programs don't find fault with the parents because they want their money. Therefore, they place all the blame on the kids. This allows the parents to feel less guilty by shipping the problem child away instead of dealing with him/her as a family. The child may change, but is returned to an unchanged family and any gains will be either reversed, or suppressed due to the child's new found fear. These repressed problems will come out with a vengeance once the child becomes an adult and moves out.
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On 2005-07-26 20:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I saw on national TV...", this sums up Deborah.
"It can take years to acclimate to a different climate." Oh grow up----you relentlessly silly woman---people---especially young people---are a lot more resilient than you try to make them out to be--
And here you are, apparently worried about sanitary napkins that might be found by predators...and choking on uncooked lentils for God's sake...I think the camp people can handle all this City Girl
News flash, Deborah: these kids in the Brat Camp programs---nd the various othe programs you try to drum up complaints against---are NOT YOUR CHILDREN
Their own parents will make the determination of what is needed in their lives. It's not your business--so get a hobby or something to fill your days
Seems to me that this is all about avoiding how badly you managed the upbringing of your own children---by concentrating in things outside of that central issue(yeah I hear that you didn't want your kids in program--but why did your husband--and/or the courts---put them there: you obviously hadn't done a stellar job in bringing them up to be productive citizens)
These programs are doing good---leave them alone---what good are you doing with your endless, detailed clueless posts that transparently try to portray evil and danger where there is really possibility and potential???
"
Anon, honestly ... Deborah makes so very good points. Try looking at it from the perspective of someone who is OPEN MINDED to learning something new.
Kids come in different sizes, different shapes. These one-size-fits-all therapy in the woods camps are like cattle drives.
Round em up, march em out, feed and water them, put em to bed, etc.
Wilderness therapy is not the magic bullet. Parents should take their own kids camping, spend time and money BONDING with their own kids instead of paying for their kids to bond with some lazy a** camp counselor with an attitude problem of his own.
:silly:
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On 2005-07-26 20:39:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I was not going to respond to this thread as I have not seen anything worth responding to up till just recently.
I believe that wilderness therapy can be very benificial in certian situations. However, the very crux of the matter being that short term wilderness programs can not help a kid effect long term changes. How can you expect a kid to change his behaviors that he has spent an entire lifetime learning?
Further, what good is eating out of a cup going to do a kid who is Bipolar? Not a whole lot as far as I can tell.
What needs to be remembered is that a wilderness program is the first step in a long ladder for a great many of these kids. Run properly I think a wilderness program could be a good experience for just about any kid. That is what I like so much about the Outward bound programs. They are more focused on improving character than actually treating specific issues. In outward bound its about toughening up a bit, rather than learning how to deal with being bipolar though wood bow drilling or what not.
A few weeks out in the woods would have worked wonders for my lazy ass when I was a teenager. Now focusing specifically on these programs that are promising the moon, while delivering charred oatmeal. I hate to say it they are about the dollars. Nothing more nothing less. Short term camping is a good thing for kids, but a terrible place to address treatment issues like depression, and the rest of the alphabet soup family of neurological disorders.
Full well knowing this I would happily send my kid to some place like Outward bound for the experience of backpacking, and living in the woods. I would not send them their for treatment. If I had a child with that sort of disorder the wilderness aspect would only be the first step of the process.
Upon return I would have the rest of his/her treatment in place. In no way would that immediately involve an out of home placement. I would not dismiss it as an option, but it would never be my first choice.
"
Well said! Makes a lot of sense!
:nworthy:
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I forgot about the NIH study. It was related to violence, so I will be attacked for it, but I think the same logic applies to any poorly behaved teen.
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm)
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On 2005-07-26 21:07:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"I don't think your tone is constructive.
I have read dozens of articles on this subject and consulted with friends and family. My sister has a PHD in adolecsent psycology, my wife is a board certified psychiatrist. My wife has worked in drug and alcohol rehabilitation programs, in prisons, and with the homeless. She pointed out the success ratios these programs claim are insane. If they use follow-up at all, they use unreliable self surveys. A kid is not going to risk going back by telling the company that runs his program that he has fallen back into his old habits.
Both my wife and sister informed me about something called 'situational adaptation.' It is a problem in almost all rehabilition programs. It is basically similar to Stockholm Syndrome. The patient in the rehab program will genuinely change their psycology to reduce the negative stresses the programs place on them. They are not faking it, and so appear to be helped. but when the program is over, the adopted behavour doesn't stick. Thus coercive programs usually don't work. A person has to want to change. They cannot be forced.
I won't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but there are just too many bad stories out there to ignore.
To me it is simply unconscionable to place a child in a situation where they are isolated and in the hands of strangers. If abuse does occur, they have no recourse and no one will believe them. I would not let my children go to SW anymore than I would let them sleep in Michael Jackson's bed. I don't care if he was aquitted, it just ain't right.
The program I attended was called simply Wildnerness Challenge. I don't know much of the details because I never looked into it, but it was not a for profit affair. It was sponsored by the school district. The director was reputed to be a survivalist expert who had trekked to the N. Pole. The groups were chaperoned, yup, along with our guides/counselors we had chaperons. In my group, our chaperons included my eighth grade english teacher and the principal to the school where I attended sixth grade. I had adults I knew and trusted with me.
The program was offered through the high school. I don't know how all the kids were recruited. I was convinced to go by a friendly 'intervention' of kids and teachers I knew. They talked me into it. It was only after the program that I was informed by one of the kids that they had been instructed not to let me leave the room until I agreed. That stung a bit.
Of the eight kids in my group, three of them were my classmates. The program was essentially, community based. I remember how it made me feel good to know these people all cared about me.
Oh, I was just told to add the following:
These for profit programs don't find fault with the parents because they want their money. Therefore, they place all the blame on the kids. This allows the parents to feel less guilty by shipping the problem child away instead of dealing with him/her as a family. The child may change, but is returned to an unchanged family and any gains will be either reversed, or suppressed due to the child's new found fear. These repressed problems will come out with a vengeance once the child becomes an adult and moves out."
Excellent!
What do you think is the biggest problem with BRAT CAMP? Personally, I don't like the "labeling" of the teens and resent SW and the producers for allowing this to occur. If these kids are truly troubled, why are they being exploited and ridiculed with these asinine labels?
Shame on the parents, too. They are the ones who signed away the rights of their own children.
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Treatment options for adolescents with depression are similar to those for depressed adults, and include psychotherapy and antidepressant medications (see major depression for a review of treatments and self-care). However, one major antidepressant, Paxil, now has a warning NOT to be given to children under 18.
Family therapy may be helpful if family conflict is contributing to the depression. Support from family or teachers to help with school problems may also be needed. Occasionally, hospitalization in a psychiatric unit may be required for individuals with severe depression, or if they are at risk of suicide.
Because of the behavior problems that often co-exist with adolescent depression, many parents are tempted to utilize punitive solutions like "boot camps", "wilderness programs", or "emotional growth schools."
These programs frequently utilize non-professional staff and use confrontational therapies and harsh punishments. There is no scientific evidence which supports use of these programs. In fact, there is a growing body of research which suggests that they can actually harm teens, particularly sensitive teens with depression.
Depressed teens who act out may also become involved with the criminal justice system. Parents are often advised not to intervene, but to "let them experience consequences."
Unfortunately, this can also harm teens through exposure to more deviant peers and reduction in educational opportunities. A better solution is to get the best possible legal advice and search for treatment on your own, which gives parents more control over techniques used and options.
Though a large percentage of teens in the criminal justice system have mental disorders like depression, few juvenile prisons, "boot camps" or other "alternative to prison" programs provide adequate treatment.
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TSW - the problem is that people really are just... ignorant about this topic (or any at all it seems) and that you can just call anything 'therapeutic' and people just buy into it!
I guess its some mix of new-agey bullshit and the "good 'ole" mentality of suffering being "good for 'em" that they use to hook people into sending their kids off. People seem to like the idea of punishment despite the fact that its ineffective at best and detremential at worst. That "they deserve it" justifies this even when you face up to the fact that its not therapeutic and they do actually "need help" in the minds of many.
That, and people think a breakdown is a 'break through' and psychological regressions and extreme emotional outbursts are 'good' somehow. Its not 'good for them' or a 'growth experience' anymore than surviving a rape or torture or severe injury is (sure, if you survive you've grown, but they might very well break your spirit... and theres no reason to go around tormenting people so they 'grow', now is there?) but it DOES make them suggestable to new ideas. Its brainwashing in a nutshell, just more subtle and with an air of indian this and that and new-agey psycho-bullshit thrown all over it and stupid parents who just believe.
Hell, I heard someone talking about how the "wilderness effect" on her kid wore off on some forum... HELLO!??!?! What year is it, and what time period does that kind of stupid mentality belong in? And I also dont get why people get shipped off to lockin programs after going through the hiking programs... WTF is the reason for that? Neither works so double up? I know the ulterior motive is just a money train that they don't let the kids off of for a long time - but how do they justify it to the parents?
*sigh* ultimately there is no reasoning with them, if theyve been sucked in few dare admit the mistake. One can only hope more people come out and this eventually is put to its end for good... but given the current politial and cultural situation, It might be a long time. America when will you be angelic
When will you take off your clothes....
America after all it is you and I who are perfect
Not the next world.
--Allen Ginsberg
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I honestly think most people who watch the show are horrified. Otherwise why would the ratings be so high? (fear factor, law and order SVU, extreme makeover, etc...) The show will get old fast. I'm already bored with it. How many weeks can you string out standard teenager drama?
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Not to mention the turd circle. :roll: How stupid can it get?
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On 2005-07-27 11:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I honestly think most people who watch the show are horrified. Otherwise why would the ratings be so high? (fear factor, law and order SVU, extreme makeover, etc...) The show will get old fast. I'm already bored with it. How many weeks can you string out standard teenager drama?
"
My family watches that crap. I can't stand it, myself. I don't mind the physical challenges. Some of those are rather cool. But I can't stand watching people eat disgusting crap and don't really understand why anyone would either do it (even for a chance at $50k), far less why anyone would want to watch it.
But there's a major difference here, and I wonder if most viewers even consider this. All of the participants in those other shows are voluntary. It's their choice to participate, for watever reasons. They can walk away at any time (though I'm sure there are contract stipulations to discourage it) These kids are literally kidnapped out of their beds at night or tricked by their own parents into going. There's no practical chance at escape. And they (shit bird and her buddies) intentionally push them past the point of reason on a regular basis to where they'll risk life and limb to attempt it anyway.
The whole spectacle reminds me very much of the afternoon when ATF set fire to the Waco complex. People in my office cheered like the home team just scored a touch down. I'm thoroughly disgusted w/ the network and their audience.Why should we take advice on sex from the Pope? If he knows anything about it, he shouldn't.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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I've made an attempt to respond every post directed at me or reply to one of my posts. However, I am finding more and more difficult to address everything, especially a lot of generalizations, misconceptions, and flatout mistruths presented on this forum.
But the whet the appetite of some of the nay-sayers on this forum, I will express some grievences I do have...
-I know Brat Camp is exploitation, if they were going to make a show of this, it should've been at least voluntary. It sucks to have these kids privacy violated, but you must understand the extremely lucratrive incentive to have 15k therapy program paid for in full.
-Based on what I saw on the intro to BC, Derek should not have been sent to SW. I'm fairly sure that his entire story was not told but if it's just him not taking his medication thats making him act out or whatever, then he just needs to be convinced to take his medication. I'm fairly sure that theres more to the story, however.
-Although I was required to take a physical prior to attending SageWalk, they should've done bloodwork since Diabetes is one of the conditions that prevent enrollment. I think that all students should be tested for Diabetes and Epilepsy.
Despite these, I still stand that SW is a good program. I have no freakin' clue as to why everyone thinks that all the kids are all normal kids and the parents are all abusive and evil, and then one day, they write a check, the kid is sent away and then the parents sit back at home, sip cocktails and laugh, then 45 days later, their children come out as slave robots. SW is never the first option, I read all the material that SW sent my parents (they have archived every single thing that has pertained to SW or any other treatment and circumstances of my behavior), it's no cakewalk for the parents either. They're told that they need to change their ways as well, and they have to work on that as well. It's not just a matter of writing a check either. There is a very lengthy application process.
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On 2005-07-27 18:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I've made an attempt to respond every post directed at me or reply to one of my posts. However, I am finding more and more difficult to address everything, especially a lot of generalizations, misconceptions, and flatout mistruths presented on this forum.
But the whet the appetite of some of the nay-sayers on this forum, I will express some grievences I do have...
-I know Brat Camp is exploitation, if they were going to make a show of this, it should've been at least voluntary. It sucks to have these kids privacy violated, but you must understand the extremely lucratrive incentive to have 15k therapy program paid for in full.
-Based on what I saw on the intro to BC, Derek should not have been sent to SW. I'm fairly sure that his entire story was not told but if it's just him not taking his medication thats making him act out or whatever, then he just needs to be convinced to take his medication. I'm fairly sure that theres more to the story, however.
-Although I was required to take a physical prior to attending SageWalk, they should've done bloodwork since Diabetes is one of the conditions that prevent enrollment. I think that all students should be tested for Diabetes and Epilepsy.
Despite these, I still stand that SW is a good program. I have no freakin' clue as to why everyone thinks that all the kids are all normal kids and the parents are all abusive and evil, and then one day, they write a check, the kid is sent away and then the parents sit back at home, sip cocktails and laugh, then 45 days later, their children come out as slave robots. SW is never the first option, I read all the material that SW sent my parents (they have archived every single thing that has pertained to SW or any other treatment and circumstances of my behavior), it's no cakewalk for the parents either. They're told that they need to change their ways as well, and they have to work on that as well. It's not just a matter of writing a check either. There is a very lengthy application process.
"
Well alrighty, now we are getting somewhere.
Personally? I think you would have liked Outward Bound (if you were accepted) because you appear to be someone who truly believes you benefited from the challenge of wilderness survival.
The points you made are all valid and serve to underscore why nobody thinks the Wilderness Therapy industry is about helping kids... it's about making money. Lots of MONEY. From the blood, sweat and tears of children.
Yeah, these teen helpers are heroes, allright.
NOT!
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On 2005-07-27 18:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Despite these, I still stand that SW is a good program. I have no freakin' clue as to why everyone thinks that all the kids are all normal kids and the parents are all abusive and evil, and then one day, they write a check, the kid is sent away and then the parents sit back at home, sip cocktails and laugh, then 45 days later, their children come out as slave robots. SW is never the first option, I read all the material that SW sent my parents (they have archived every single thing that has pertained to SW or any other treatment and circumstances of my behavior), it's no cakewalk for the parents either. They're told that they need to change their ways as well, and they have to work on that as well. It's not just a matter of writing a check either. There is a very lengthy application process.
"
Well I think you're generalizing that everyone on here thinks exactly the same thing. I happen to think that the kids do have problems, but that a lot of it probably stems from the family dynamics at home. Check out some of the family therapy options and their theories, such as systems family therapy, and you will see what I am talking about. These kids just aren't severe enough from what I've seen to warrant such an extreme approach, especially since the problem to me appears to be the family as a whole. They should be in some good family therapy at home, not in a residential type wilderness therapy program. These programs don't make any sense to me in any way, teaching kids the value of submission and agreeing with others is the only thing I see happening here. This may cause everyone to start getting along, sure, the kids may not be as angry, sure....but is that what is really best for them and their family? Call up a family therapist in your area and ask them what they think about this nonsense. I bet they will think it's all nonsense.
Here are a couple of commonly accepted and USED family therapy theories:
Attachment theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory)
Systems Family Therapy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_systems_therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_systems_therapy)
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I think they should send all the kids to Maui for a month and put the parent(s)in SW.
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There is a very lengthy application process.
So there is a long application form to fill in as well! Those poor parents. The things they have to do for their children. My heart bleads.
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This is really all about changing definitions; manipulating language. Weakness is strength, submission is character. Far as I can tell, Isaiah's big problem is that he stubornly persists in defending himself from the dumb jocks. We can't have that, can we? And Nick? Well Nick made me think of someone I knew briefely. His rents sent him to Outward Bound. He loved it. When he got home, they went right on w/ their overt child abuse (I won't go into details here, but trust me, it was not borderline stuff) So he took his newfound independence and self reliance and he rebelled. So they sent him to Straight. He sucked it up long enough to get onto 3rd phase and then used his wilderness survival skills to live pretty much in the woods for a couple of years till he came of age.
Dude's an investment banker these days. Put himself through school selling pot and coke in Philly.
In the long run, it worked out pretty well for the guy. But he's a tough guy. I doubt seriously that the rents got what they thought they were paying for or that this particular guy would have fared any differently no matter what they did or didn't do.
I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor
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Theres a shitload of reasons why kids wind up in programs. If my parents had thought of it, they would have plopped my sorry-ass in one. Instead they told me that one my 18th birthday if I didnt get with THEIR program Id find my stuff in the front yard. Best wakeup call Ive gotten! It sucks but as long as youre under their roof or theyre kicking down with the cash, you play by their rules. The money train goes where it wants and I wasnt driving. It sucks but that the way it fucking goes. I learned a big lesson - and it was self-reliance. Nobody was there to tell me to eat more vegetables, get more sleep, not smoke weed, pay my bills, blah blah blah. It took a while but I figured out some of the stuff I was doing was a stupid waste of time - but I learned it on my own. I have friends who got thrown out and theyve said that if their parents hadnt kicked em to the curb theyd still be living in the basement sleeping on some crappy couch working just enough to by more weed. Theres lots of different ways to "get with the program".
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The program breeds dependence, even though they like to think the opposite. The program graduates are the ones living with their parents well into their 20's, not the ones taking their exit plans.
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On 2005-07-28 14:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Theres a shitload of reasons why kids wind up in programs. If my parents had thought of it, they would have plopped my sorry-ass in one. Instead they told me that one my 18th birthday if I didnt get with THEIR program Id find my stuff in the front yard. Best wakeup call Ive gotten! It sucks but as long as youre under their roof or theyre kicking down with the cash, you play by their rules. The money train goes where it wants and I wasnt driving. It sucks but that the way it fucking goes. I learned a big lesson - and it was self-reliance. Nobody was there to tell me to eat more vegetables, get more sleep, not smoke weed, pay my bills, blah blah blah. It took a while but I figured out some of the stuff I was doing was a stupid waste of time - but I learned it on my own. I have friends who got thrown out and theyve said that if their parents hadnt kicked em to the curb theyd still be living in the basement sleeping on some crappy couch working just enough to by more weed. Theres lots of different ways to "get with the program"."
What's your point? Everyone learns self-reliance when they move out. It's called growing up. If your parents let you become a fat slob uncapable of taking care of yourself, well, that sucks. But a program isn't going to solve that. Parents would like to think programs can fix their mistakes, they are SO wrong it's sad.
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I guess the point I tried to make is that maybe the parents that choose programs feel its a better choice than throwing a kid out on his ass. They probably see it as putting a kid in the hands of "experts" and the more expensive the better. And I dont know about you but Ive made some pretty shitty choices in the friends department. No better way to get your kid out of the grip of "the bad kids" than to send him off. And I probably would have turned out different if my parents hadnt been wrapped up in fucking up their own relationship and had spent more time with me.
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On 2005-07-28 15:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
I guess the point I tried to make is that maybe the parents that choose programs feel its a better choice than throwing a kid out on his ass.
I think you're probably right. They think it's better cause they don't have to see what they're paying for. And, of course, they are paying. How many times have you read the astonishing statement that parents who don't love their kids don't spend money on them. Really! So, in these people's minds, money not only buys love, but is, in fact, evidence of it! Wow!
In regard to most of the programs that come up under discussion around here, it would be a good deal better to throw the kids out. But why settle for just better than the worst thing one could do? Why not actually do something WITH the kids? Instead of spending anywhere from $50 to $200k/yr on this scam, why not take off a few months and go camping WITH the kid? Shit, hire a newagey trail guide w/ some indian sounding pseudonym if it makes you feel better about the whole thing.
Getting away from grind and the static and constant noise of civilization is a probably a good thing for most people, whatever may be troubling your mind. No need to needle and poke at the kid to break them down. No need to prohibit phone and mail contact w/ the outside world. No need for any of the abusive tactics, diet restrictions or unneccessary hardships. And I would think that parents who are willing to spend the time and endure the rustic life WITH the kid would earn something like bona fied respect rather than fear based compliance.
I suppose it depends on what you're after in life. I'd rather have my kid give me the finger over taking out the trash and confide in my over the serious stuff than the other way around.
In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
--Thomas Jefferson 1798
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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On 2005-07-28 15:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I guess the point I tried to make is that maybe the parents that choose programs feel its a better choice than throwing a kid out on his ass. They probably see it as putting a kid in the hands of "experts" and the more expensive the better. And I dont know about you but Ive made some pretty shitty choices in the friends department. No better way to get your kid out of the grip of "the bad kids" than to send him off. And I probably would have turned out different if my parents hadnt been wrapped up in fucking up their own relationship and had spent more time with me."
So what you're saying is they should have paid more attention to you? I think that pretty sums up what a lot of us are suggesting. The act of shipping kids away, to a place where you rarely if ever speak to them, for months on end, is a huge indication of just how much effort they are willing to put into their kids. I know, people are going to say....but the kids were HORRIBLE, I was AWFUL... well, I doubt that's true. Probably you were really unhappy with the situation you were in. And that was the real issue, not how "awful" you think you were.
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If we lived in a perfect world parents would have lots of time to spend with their children and children would want to spend time with their parents. And I know people that have families like that. One of them is a third generation trust fund family and another has made lots of concessions. One car and one parent working, thrift store shopping, eat out once every couple months, no cable, no cell phones, dial-up cable connection and one computer that everyone shares. Those are two extremes... lots of families have two working parents, lots of fast food, long commute times to work and little time left for families. I may not necessarily agree with programs but Im trying to understand why parents make the choice. Im going out on a limb and saying its because they love their children and are hoping to have a better relationship with them. And some of the time this isnt the outcome.
And youre right, I wasnt a happy teenager and I didnt have happy parents but they loved me and did the best they could with what they had. I guess Im a bit of an optimist and would like to believe that most parents are doing the best they can too.
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Well, we all know what they say about good intentions so I won't go there...
but it seems you are suggesting you wish your parents had sent you to a program? OH BOY are you on the wrong forum. :rofl:
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The bigger the problem, the bigger the budget to solve it. And one of the only things money cant buy is time. And how many kids are guilty of holding the money card over their parents head... especially kids in split families?
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On 2005-07-28 15:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
I may not necessarily agree with programs but Im trying to understand why parents make the choice. Im going out on a limb and saying its because they love their children and are hoping to have a better relationship with them. And some of the time this isnt the outcome.
And youre right, I wasnt a happy teenager and I didnt have happy parents but they loved me and did the best they could with what they had. I guess Im a bit of an optimist and would like to believe that most parents are doing the best they can too.
An optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. A pesimist knows it. There's another common theme that I see a lot. I suppose it goes back to having had very old parents; my dad having come up poor in the depression and fought WWII. In his day, if you worked hard, were honest and generally of good character, you could raise 6 kids in reasonable comfort w/ mom playing fulltime housewife.
That's no longer true. The truth is if you do your homework, make good grades, stay out of trouble, you too can take you BA along as you have your balls busted looking for non-existant work as a line cook. But don't turn a buck at the only growth industry other than prisons and behavior mod scams! No! That would be wrong!
Most adults are simply not willing to discuss this stark reality w/ kids ta' day. Fact is there is no particularly compelling reason to color inside the lines anymore. If your kid is pissed off and frustrated by that, it's not a disorder in your kid. It's what we used to call prescience.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-- Albert Einstein
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Not really, but I do like camping and the outdoors. A NOLS or Outward Bound program would have rocked but those are far from cheap! The military might not have been bad either, someone ordering you around all day, lots of structure, a paycheck and a pension adjusted for inflation. And the possibility of being blown up with an RPG. Wheeee.
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On 2005-07-28 16:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not really, but I do like camping and the outdoors. A NOLS or Outward Bound program would have rocked but those are far from cheap! The military might not have been bad either, someone ordering you around all day, lots of structure, a paycheck and a pension adjusted for inflation. And the possibility of being blown up with an RPG. Wheeee."
::ftard::
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On 2005-07-28 15:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If we lived in a perfect world parents would have lots of time to spend with their children and children would want to spend time with their parents. And I know people that have families like that. One of them is a third generation trust fund family and another has made lots of concessions. One car and one parent working, thrift store shopping, eat out once every couple months, no cable, no cell phones, dial-up cable connection and one computer that everyone shares. Those are two extremes... lots of families have two working parents, lots of fast food, long commute times to work and little time left for families. I may not necessarily agree with programs but Im trying to understand why parents make the choice. Im going out on a limb and saying its because they love their children and are hoping to have a better relationship with them. And some of the time this isnt the outcome.
And youre right, I wasnt a happy teenager and I didnt have happy parents but they loved me and did the best they could with what they had. I guess Im a bit of an optimist and would like to believe that most parents are doing the best they can too. "
If by 'best' you mean that they try to force their kids to agree with them and be grateful all the time and have no genuine feelings of their own, I would have to agree.
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On 2005-07-28 16:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, we all know what they say about good intentions so I won't go there...
but it seems you are suggesting you wish your parents had sent you to a program? OH BOY are you on the wrong forum. :rofl: "
Im kinda new here but Ive seen a few posts that didnt completely slam programs. Im not for or against em - theyre just not for everyone. And when I think of the brainwashing aspect of it, wilderness programs dont seem as freakish/cultish as something like Landmark EDucation. That be some freaky shit.
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On 2005-07-28 16:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-28 15:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If we lived in a perfect world parents would have lots of time to spend with their children and children would want to spend time with their parents. And I know people that have families like that. One of them is a third generation trust fund family and another has made lots of concessions. One car and one parent working, thrift store shopping, eat out once every couple months, no cable, no cell phones, dial-up cable connection and one computer that everyone shares. Those are two extremes... lots of families have two working parents, lots of fast food, long commute times to work and little time left for families. I may not necessarily agree with programs but Im trying to understand why parents make the choice. Im going out on a limb and saying its because they love their children and are hoping to have a better relationship with them. And some of the time this isnt the outcome.
And youre right, I wasnt a happy teenager and I didnt have happy parents but they loved me and did the best they could with what they had. I guess Im a bit of an optimist and would like to believe that most parents are doing the best they can too. "
If by 'best' you mean that they try to force their kids to agree with them and be grateful all the time and have no genuine feelings of their own, I would have to agree."
I cant speak for other parents and their motivation behind the decisions they make. But my mom was sick and tired of fighting with me and having to call the cops and she was physically afraid of me. She told me she did it because she loved me and I believe her. She also admitted that her own parents were not the best role models. Theres all sorts of fucked up shit that goes down in families and kids dont come with instructions. My parents were probably afraid that if I didnt get my shit together Id be an albatross hanging around their neck when they were 80 and in nursing homes. Im rambling but I bet if you research this topic in twenty-thirty years youll find second generation graduates of wilderness programs. The comment one of the earlier posters made about instilling dependency might be right on. Just look at the welfare programs in this country. Third generation recipients. Hmmmm.
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On 2005-07-28 16:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-28 16:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, we all know what they say about good intentions so I won't go there...
but it seems you are suggesting you wish your parents had sent you to a program? OH BOY are you on the wrong forum. :rofl: "
Im kinda new here but Ive seen a few posts that didnt completely slam programs. Im not for or against em - theyre just not for everyone. And when I think of the brainwashing aspect of it, wilderness programs dont seem as freakish/cultish as something like Landmark EDucation. That be some freaky shit."
First off, why are you here talking about programs, what knowledge do you have of them? If you are wishing your parents sent you, you obviously don't know anything about the programs discussed here. There is a disney forum for teens that think brat camp is cool and want to go. They talk about which one of them is the cutest. Nobody takes it seriously until they are there themselves. And don't think it's like Brat Camp- that is far from reality TV.
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Like I said, Im not for em or against em. I went to a college with an outdoor recreation program and a couple friends that are rock climbers have thought about working at a program. So thats why Im here. Does Disney really have a forum for teens? Thats kinda creepy. And I know its a lot different working at a program than having to be in one.
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I'd advise your friends against it, talk to Three Spring Waygookin.
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On 2005-07-27 18:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I've made an attempt to respond every post directed at me or reply to one of my posts. However, I am finding more and more difficult to address everything, especially a lot of generalizations, misconceptions, and flatout mistruths presented on this forum.
But the whet the appetite of some of the nay-sayers on this forum, I will express some grievences I do have...
-I know Brat Camp is exploitation, if they were going to make a show of this, it should've been at least voluntary. It sucks to have these kids privacy violated, but you must understand the extremely lucratrive incentive to have 15k therapy program paid for in full.
-Based on what I saw on the intro to BC, Derek should not have been sent to SW. I'm fairly sure that his entire story was not told but if it's just him not taking his medication thats making him act out or whatever, then he just needs to be convinced to take his medication. I'm fairly sure that theres more to the story, however.
-Although I was required to take a physical prior to attending SageWalk, they should've done bloodwork since Diabetes is one of the conditions that prevent enrollment. I think that all students should be tested for Diabetes and Epilepsy.
Despite these, I still stand that SW is a good program. I have no freakin' clue as to why everyone thinks that all the kids are all normal kids and the parents are all abusive and evil, and then one day, they write a check, the kid is sent away and then the parents sit back at home, sip cocktails and laugh, then 45 days later, their children come out as slave robots. SW is never the first option, I read all the material that SW sent my parents (they have archived every single thing that has pertained to SW or any other treatment and circumstances of my behavior), it's no cakewalk for the parents either. They're told that they need to change their ways as well, and they have to work on that as well. It's not just a matter of writing a check either. There is a very lengthy application process.
"
From your description, it would appear that SageWalk is one of the 'better' programs out there. What scares the rest of us is that this show will cause lots of parents to jump on the band wagon and send kids to places like that described at http://www.63days.com (http://www.63days.com). Or worse, send them a WWASP facility.
I wanted to ask you about the punishment. Maybe you didn't experience or see it, but what happens to a teen that absolutely refuses to cooperate. On the show they just wait teens out, but none of the kids on the show are very resistent. I know that if a kid got violent, they would restrain him/her and could have them arrested and taken away if it went far enough, but what if someone just tossed their impact letter into the fire and said, 'Fuck you, I'm not doing this!' or simply refused to hike? I can see that they cannot really kick a kid out because that would only encourage the other kids to emulate the one that got out.
I imagine they would never get to leave? At what point do they say, 'this program is not working for this kid?'
And of course, they would probably recommend one of their lock-up 'theraputic boarding schools' as a solution.
To me, it is this forced coercion where the kid doesn't stand a chance and has no choice that is the main objection I have to these programs. As an atheist/anarchist, to me, the freedom to think what one wants to is the most basic core human right there is. I cannot think of a worse nightmare for someone with my mindset than to be locked into a program of this kind. I don't know how I would handle it, but I bet I would either become seriously violent or seriously suicidal. And if I did, would it be my fault, or the program's? Either way, the program would break me and not help me. It is this no-choice choice bullshit that I cannot get past. You cannot oppose the program without destroying yourself. Thus there is no real choice.
BTW, I'm glad you found value in SageWalk and view it as a positive experience. I wish you continued good fortune in life.
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Who cares how hard it was for the damn parents? thats as irrelevant as it could be, and its stupid to play victim over and over and over. Boo hoo you wasted your money and a piece of what should be the best time of your childs life.
The bottom line is I've still yet to see the programs as anything but coersion and using various stressors to make them easy to change, which is 'brainwashing' with politer terms.
Punishment doesnt make anyone a better person. Finding something positive out of a shitty experience is a good skill but it doesnt condone or justify a bad experience. This has been gone over and over many times. You dont rape people so they have 'emotional growth'. Besides, 'emotional growth' is having a BREAK DOWN in the minds of these programmies and wilderness psychos.
Its all about forcing them to have a break down, but call it a "break through", and disclose all their personal shit and open them up to be more vulnerable and more humiliated "or work through it" and then when theyre open to suggestion you do so... which fits BRAINWASHING TO A T.
Fuck, talk to anyone whose gotten out of a program and wasnt brainwashed by it. They just made up more shit to divuldge and work through to get out... and you have to because eventually you run out of shit to talk about and humiliate yourself with. Its bullshit, not therapy, and punishment is a waste of time at best. I still fail to see the efficacy of these programs and the point behind them.
You either come out with a damaged or brainwashed kid, or a kid who fought the program and (if you follow their rules) someone you kick out anyway! I mean sure, you learn lessons from this mistake and "grow" from it, but so do people who survive being raped or tortured or trauamtic experiences. That still doesnt mean its a good thing to do to someone, you can gorw and mature by other means. Not everyone survives and grows off of it, anyway, plenty of people are broken by it. Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
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On 2005-07-28 22:06:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Who cares how hard it was for the damn parents? thats as irrelevant as it could be, and its stupid to play victim over and over and over. Boo hoo you wasted your money and a piece of what should be the best time of your childs life.
The bottom line is I've still yet to see the programs as anything but coersion and using various stressors to make them easy to change, which is 'brainwashing' with politer terms.
Punishment doesnt make anyone a better person. Finding something positive out of a shitty experience is a good skill but it doesnt condone or justify a bad experience. This has been gone over and over many times. You dont rape people so they have 'emotional growth'. Besides, 'emotional growth' is having a BREAK DOWN in the minds of these programmies and wilderness psychos.
Its all about forcing them to have a break down, but call it a "break through", and disclose all their personal shit and open them up to be more vulnerable and more humiliated "or work through it" and then when theyre open to suggestion you do so... which fits BRAINWASHING TO A T.
Fuck, talk to anyone whose gotten out of a program and wasnt brainwashed by it. They just made up more shit to divuldge and work through to get out... and you have to because eventually you run out of shit to talk about and humiliate yourself with. Its bullshit, not therapy, and punishment is a waste of time at best. I still fail to see the efficacy of these programs and the point behind them.
You either come out with a damaged or brainwashed kid, or a kid who fought the program and (if you follow their rules) someone you kick out anyway! I mean sure, you learn lessons from this mistake and "grow" from it, but so do people who survive being raped or tortured or trauamtic experiences. That still doesnt mean its a good thing to do to someone, you can gorw and mature by other means. Not everyone survives and grows off of it, anyway, plenty of people are broken by it. Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
"
Just for the record. What approach would you take to reach the teenager who simply won't cooperate at all is 'out of control' with drugs, sex, et al?
This is not an attack. I agree with everything in the above message. You state the case in clear and blunt terms. But what action, if any, should one take if they see a kid spiralling down the tubes and completely unwilling to listen, try, or stop drugs, or whatever?
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On 2005-07-28 21:55:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
It is this no-choice choice bullshit that I cannot get past. You cannot oppose the program without destroying yourself. Thus there is no real choice.
Me too. And it's not just about different strokes for different folks. It's that the freedom to walk away is probably the most commonly used spontanious behavior for avoiding serious conflict.
When people start walking off, you get the idea that you must be doing something wrong. Under these circumstances, the subjects are captive and dissent is punished. There's no limit to how far they'll push these kids either emotionally or physically because they have no social reality check on their own behavior. Out there, (or behind the closed door of some BM warehouse) they're gods. Before the program, I had heard many times that power corrupts. Within the program, I saw firsthand how that works.
On2005-07-28 22:26:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
This is not an attack. I agree with everything in the above message. You state the case in clear and blunt terms. But what action, if any, should one take if they see a kid spiralling down the tubes and completely unwilling to listen, try, or stop drugs, or whatever?"
First, understand that the entire market for the troubled parent industry is just a tiny fraction of the whole population. It's not asif this is a brand new concept that the market hasn't discovered yet. This has been going on for 35 years now as a formal treatment method. The market largely rejects it. So you might look to what the majority has been doing in the mean time.
For the most part, we do our level best to keep some order in our homes, anguish over how best to help and support our kids w/o making more trouble than what we're trying to address, and just know that it's not easy being a parent. No one ever said it would be.
Just look over the struggling teen website under parenting issues. After all the expense to the parent and risk and abuse to the kids, that's right were they seem to find themselves; right back at the beginning, only with a few more issues thrown into the mix.
In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller
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Im just gonna tag-along with what ginger said because I really dont have anything very differnet to add to it...
You basically just do what you can, but let them grow up and make their own choices and their own mistakes. Programs that ultimately do no good and might very well do harm are hardly a "choice" when the option of simply doing nothing (to hurt, might I add) is very much present.
Maybe you do need to just do nothing. Maybe instead of punishing you should try just letting them go out and do it. I mean shit, if you just accept the fact that being a parent means dealing with shit and putting up with a lot, they'll probably come back around to you in time.
There is always the option of a REAL boarding school, or a relative, or a friend, if toughing it out isn't there. People got through this for centuries, and most people since the programs have been around dont need 'em, so why does the hypothetical program parent? Every man thinks God is on his side. The rich and powerful know he is.
--Jean Anouilh, French dramatist and playwright
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I haven't read it but the guy who wrote Wilderness Road was Campbell Loughmiller.
001010,
Are you watching this thread? You were at the Salesmanship Club. What was it like?
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Before "Brat Camp," I was only tangentially aware that these places and programs existed. After reading posts and articles, I'm horrified that these programs are basically unregulated, and that a network would essentially provide free advertising for a particular program. There is no independent commentary on what is happening to these children; the commentary is provided by the guy who runs Sagewalk!
While watching, I didn't understand how a licensed therapist could broadcast therapy sessions and not violate some ethical standard. However, it doesn't look to me like the therapist that is often shown on Brat Camp is licensed as a therapist -- she appears to have a degree in counseling from some college in Arizona. Am I correct?
Thanks to everyone who has posted useful links and information.
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So, coersement with nothing but being trapped there? Instead of trying to minimize coersion and still set up settings where its "conform or youre never leaving" (Until youre 18) and just have some campfire raps, why do any of that at all?
I'll admit with the potential for pressure in any setting like that taken aside, its gonna be less abusive than instigating nothing but breakdown after breakdown ala bratcamp (or any program, for that matter) but why do that? Besdies, how do you set up such vague circumstances for leaving? "Improve or youre not leaving" "Curse and you stay longer"... WTF? I'm 20, not in a program and I'd say "fuck that" in a heartbeat. Nobody is going to enjoy being trapped like that.
A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.
--Anonymous
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I need to stop looking at this site because the rampant ignorance just upsets me. "Doing nothing" ceases to be an option at some point. Adults have the responsibility of caring for their kids-not to mention the fact that they LOVE them. Also, adults are responsible for the safety of others. Many of these kids were a threat to others, AND to the families in which they were living. Do you think the parents should just let the kids steal from them, wreck cars, drive while drunk or stoned.....?
These are simply not acceptable choices, and parents can not let their childen continue this conduct. Parents have jobs, other kids and assets that they need to protect. At some point, the teen needs to be safe and out of the household. That is when a placement is made. You guys just don't get it.
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On 2005-07-29 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I need to stop looking at this site because the rampant ignorance just upsets me. "Doing nothing" ceases to be an option at some point. Adults have the responsibility of caring for their kids-not to mention the fact that they LOVE them. Also, adults are responsible for the safety of others. Many of these kids were a threat to others, AND to the families in which they were living. Do you think the parents should just let the kids steal from them, wreck cars, drive while drunk or stoned.....?
These are simply not acceptable choices, and parents can not let their childen continue this conduct. Parents have jobs, other kids and assets that they need to protect. At some point, the teen needs to be safe and out of the household. That is when a placement is made. You guys just don't get it."
The vast majority of the kids who are sent to these programs are not in as extreme a state as you seem to think. The situations you mention-- stealing, drunk driving, etc., can be solved in SO many ways. But it looks like parents these days just don't want to do the dirty work. So they dump the kids in a gulag, make it someone else's problem, and start whining about how everybody should feel sorry for them, "because it was the hardest choice I ever had to make!" :roll:
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On 2005-07-29 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I need to stop looking at this site because the rampant ignorance just upsets me. "Doing nothing" ceases to be an option at some point. Adults have the responsibility of caring for their kids-not to mention the fact that they LOVE them. Also, adults are responsible for the safety of others. Many of these kids were a threat to others, AND to the families in which they were living. Do you think the parents should just let the kids steal from them, wreck cars, drive while drunk or stoned.....?
These are simply not acceptable choices, and parents can not let their childen continue this conduct. Parents have jobs, other kids and assets that they need to protect. At some point, the teen needs to be safe and out of the household. That is when a placement is made. You guys just don't get it."
None of the kids there behave in the manner you describe. I hope you do stop coming to this forum, believe me, but it is your posts which reek of ignorance, not ours. :smile:
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Is it because you believe that a program is the 'only' way, that makes it impossible for you realize that NO one here is saying DO NOTHING. Quite the contrary.
But, by all means, do take care of yourself. No one would want you to FEEL angry or uncomfortable. And when you're leaving, appreciate your freedom to do so- a right that's not available to the teens even when they are being intentionally baited.
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Exactly, there are other options that don't place blame and guilt on people and have the only goal be that of submission and dependency. Most mainstream family therapists would think that was ridiculous.
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And what are these other options? Once a family has exhausted therapy (these kids, by their own admission, can lie to and manipulate ANY therapist they are seeing once or twice a week), has no ability to impose consequences- what then, oh wise ones???
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Well let's see now. Thomas Jefferson was a pain in the ass, spoiled rich kid when his father died. And, by all accounts, including his own, he only got worse for a couple of years. But, in the end, he turned out OK. So maybe you should die and see what happens?
Or how about Michael J. Fox. He took off from his home in Canada to become a movie star in Hollywood at the age of 16. Obviously, he was delusional and out of control. Certainly he was destined to suck dick in the Tenderloin District and any right thinking parent should nip that in the bud to save his life. Not these irresponsible, codependent, enabling, weak, horrible parents. They wished him luck, kept in touch, gave him all the support in the world. What losers, eh? Maybe you should try that.
Or, if you want some old school wisdom from an old school, textbook hero, try this. "I've found that the best way to give advice to my children is to find out what they want to do and then advise them to do it." --Winston Churchill
Seriously, have you ever considered that all that "helping" might be contributing to the problems? Ever seen the movie "Anger Management"? Do you understand what passive aggressive means? If all else fails, at least quit doing it. Maybe the major part of the problem is that the kid has had just about all the help they can stand. Maybe not. But, before you resort to desparate means in an heroic rescue story ripe for the O channel where you play the hero/heroin, first do no harm.
The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir
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Wait, one more glib, cliche reference. Remember what happened to the Magician's Apprentice? Went monkeying around in things he had no business monkeying with. And every attempt to unfuck himself only made it worse. Based on very old and well preserved germanic folklore.
There's only one party on Capital Hill and it's the bipartisan spending party.
Tom Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste
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On 2005-07-29 13:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And what are these other options? Once a family has exhausted therapy (these kids, by their own admission, can lie to and manipulate ANY therapist they are seeing once or twice a week), has no ability to impose consequences- what then, oh wise ones???"
Do you really want to talk about lying and manipulating people? What do you call lying to kids to get them into rehab, then MANIPULATING them into doing exactly what you want at every single waking and sleeping moment of their young lives? By doing things like, I don't know, making their lives as uncomfortable as you can within the confines of the law, of course, we wouldn't want to do anything illegal. The parents and these facilities put these kids to shame when you start talking about lying and manipulating people.
Family therapists, if they're good at all, will be able to provide a safe environment where the kids won't feel as though they have to be defensive. DUH.
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Therapeutic wilderness programs such as Sage Walk are probably helpful for some kids, but I would be VERY cautious about sending your child to this kind of camp. This summer we came very close to sending our son to a camp like Sage Walk. For two years he has been smoking pot and doing terribly at school, stealing from us and lately was becoming pretty defiant. He has ADHD and an anxiety disorder. He's not a bad kid, just making bad choices. He has been in counseling for his drug use and is on meds. for his ADHD and anxiety. Recently we met with an educational consultant and were ready to send our son to one of the camps he recommended until we found out that he would not be able to contact us by telephone at all, and would only be able to correspond by weekly letters that were screened by the counselors at the camp. (This would work for a kid with an anxiety disorder? I don't think so.) He would not be allowed to come home until his therapist at the camp deemed him qualified to do so. After the camp experience, he was going to have been strongly recommended to attend at therapeutic boarding school out of state. Essentially, we would be turning over our son to people we had never met, and with unknown (to us) credentials. And the price for this? $425 a day for the camp (six weeks or more) and tuition at one of the therapeutic boarding schools? $60,000 to $80,000 a year...and these camps and schools are springing up all over the place. Are these money-making ventures? Indeed they are...and not necessarily well-regulated either.
We know several families whose children have experienced these camps and have come back resentful and not at all "cured;" after several months some of these kids were right back doing what they were doing before they went (drugs, etc.) with an even greater vengeance.
As for our son, we're trying to work with him at home by making sure he is doing something positive with his time (working out at a gym, working a part-time job, getting tutored), rather than just hanging out with his drug-using friends, and we are working closely with his drug counselor so we as parents are making better parenting choices (establishing better rules, consequences, and holding to them, for example). After a lot of thought, we came to the conclusion that he will always be confronted with making choices and it is better for him to work on how to make better choices here at home than being pulled out of reality for a time only to be put back in it later; prolonging the confrontation with his old friends, the local drug dealers, his school work, and his relationship with us at home. It's a real day-to day-challenge, a lot of hard work, but hopefully it will make a more permanent and lasting impact on him and us.
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On 2005-07-29 17:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Therapeutic wilderness programs such as Sage Walk are probably helpful for some kids, but I would be VERY cautious about sending your child to this kind of camp. This summer we came very close to sending our son to a camp like Sage Walk. For two years he has been smoking pot and doing terribly at school, stealing from us and lately was becoming pretty defiant. He has ADHD and an anxiety disorder. He's not a bad kid, just making bad choices. He has been in counseling for his drug use and is on meds. for his ADHD and anxiety. Recently we met with an educational consultant and were ready to send our son to one of the camps he recommended until we found out that he would not be able to contact us by telephone at all, and would only be able to correspond by weekly letters that were screened by the counselors at the camp. (This would work for a kid with an anxiety disorder? I don't think so.) He would not be allowed to come home until his therapist at the camp deemed him qualified to do so. After the camp experience, he was going to have been strongly recommended to attend at therapeutic boarding school out of state. Essentially, we would be turning over our son to people we had never met, and with unknown (to us) credentials. And the price for this? $425 a day for the camp (six weeks or more) and tuition at one of the therapeutic boarding schools? $60,000 to $80,000 a year...and these camps and schools are springing up all over the place. Are these money-making ventures? Indeed they are...and not necessarily well-regulated either.
We know several families whose children have experienced these camps and have come back resentful and not at all "cured;" after several months some of these kids were right back doing what they were doing before they went (drugs, etc.) with an even greater vengeance.
As for our son, we're trying to work with him at home by making sure he is doing something positive with his time (working out at a gym, working a part-time job, getting tutored), rather than just hanging out with his drug-using friends, and we are working closely with his drug counselor so we as parents are making better parenting choices (establishing better rules, consequences, and holding to them, for example). After a lot of thought, we came to the conclusion that he will always be confronted with making choices and it is better for him to work on how to make better choices here at home than being pulled out of reality for a time only to be put back in it later; prolonging the confrontation with his old friends, the local drug dealers, his school work, and his relationship with us at home. It's a real day-to day-challenge, a lot of hard work, but hopefully it will make a more permanent and lasting impact on him and us.
"
Awesome! Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress. Who knows? Maybe Ginger will start a thread for parents like you aren't afraid to ... JUST SAY NO!
:wave:
Barbe
TAUSA
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I might add that when we started to back out of committing to send our son to above mentioned camp, the ed. con. started to get very nasty, criticizing us for allowing our son to sway us, for "waffling," and generally criticizing our parenting skills--as well as portraying our son as almost a lost cause, someone who was not going to turn himself around unless he went off to wilderness camp.
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I predict that within 6 months you will be sending your son to a program. You will not be able to manage him at home, and his drug use will greatly increase. Perhaps wilderness is not the right place due to his anxiety disorder, but there are very good reasons why the kids can only communicate by letter. The family dynamics are usually a big part of the underlying problem, and need to be removed from the equation before progress can be made.
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On 2005-07-29 20:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I predict that within 6 months you will be sending your son to a program. You will not be able to manage him at home, and his drug use will greatly increase. Perhaps wilderness is not the right place due to his anxiety disorder, but there are very good reasons why the kids can only communicate by letter. The family dynamics are usually a big part of the underlying problem, and need to be removed from the equation before progress can be made."
What a crock! The whole point of NOT removing a kid from the family is because the family dynamics are part of the problem; AND MUST BE ADDRESSED. Family therapy is the best way to address these issues. Removing a kid, changing him, then dumping him back into the dysfunctional family solves nothing. Rehab specialists have known that since the 1960s.
What is the deal with allowing dysfunctional and perhaps abusive parents the priviledge of blaming everything on the teen and sending him/her away to be fixed, while they sit at home smug and guilt free thinking they 'did the right thing?'
The real reason for cutting ties with the parents is to deny the teen the support system. He is easier to break if his parents are not there to protect him. It is easier to manipulate the parents if the program can screen the letters and do damage control by calling the parents and misinforming them that their child is just lying and manipulating. The child cries for help and the program tells the parents not to interfere or they will mess up the kid's progress. Say what you like, but it is the perfect set up for abuse. It is a pedophile's (or sadist's) dream come true.
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That last comment regarding where our son will be in six months doesn't warrant a response, except thanks for the encouraging words.
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On 2005-07-29 20:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I predict that within 6 months you will be sending your son to a program. You will not be able to manage him at home, and his drug use will greatly increase. Perhaps wilderness is not the right place due to his anxiety disorder, but there are very good reasons why the kids can only communicate by letter. The family dynamics are usually a big part of the underlying problem, and need to be removed from the equation before progress can be made."
WROMG...that's like trying to change a flat tire by replacing the fan belt. You fix the problem by addressing THE problem, not another one.
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:smile:
I think that would be a great name for a subforum.. and if we could lure chi3 or detleg back here they could make a few posts too! Never in the history of any nation has an education system been so on the point of disintegration and decay as the education system in this country...We know that education in this country is as bad as it can be. We know that it is old-fashioned, irrelevant, and not meaningful.
--U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff, 1970
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Your advice is sound and we totally agree with what you are suggesting. Actually, we are doing most of it. We are in family counseling, our son is in a local rehab program (we tried individual counseling but found that it was not comprehensive enough) and he is also being counseled separately for his anxiety disorder. His present counselor in the rehab program is excellent, and we believe he is one of the first people to make an impact on our son's drug use. He has great support at school and everyone is on the "same page" of support for him. The next step will be inpatient treatment and after that a local long- term residential program if he messes up again; he knows we are very serious about this--it's not a threat but just what should happen if what we are doing at home is not working. He knows this and I believe it is causing him to make some better decisions.
My husband and son just got back from a rigorous group camping and canoeing trip. They really enjoyed it and we plan on more trips. The only piece you suggested that we're missing is the month-long outdoor/wilderness ("non-therapeutic") experience but we have a place in mind that sounds appropriate if that is the path we decide to take.
It is exhausting, sometimes downright hellish, but it just makes so much more sense to work things out at home. We have always been a close, loving family and we will NOT give up on our son. He has been dealt an alcoholic, drug-abusing gene pool, as well as other mental health issues that have made him more prone to drug abuse, and our sometimes too-flexible parenting hasn't helped, but we are in this together and will fight it through.
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Sorry to be the stick in the mud here, but am I to understand that you're giving the kid speed then having him treated professionally for anxiety and also trying to prevent him from using cannabis? And, all the while, you hold over his head the threat of long term residential treatment? Don't you think that's rather at odds w/ the objective to reduce anxiety?
Kudos to ya for not shipping him off and for staying involved w/ him. But please don't think that he's just not bad enough to warrant it. Look around here and see what some of us have been through. Nobody's bad enough to deserve what they're selling as therapy because it's not therapy. You might just as well plan on trepanation as a backup plan as that.
I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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Can I make a suggestion - please take the Ed Consultants advice from who they are; they are not "Doctors" they are their to serve a purpose (most often their purpose of drumming up business for themselves) they all refer to the same "troubled teen, or struggling teen" programs, to TBS or Wilderness, much less regulated that real Residential Treatment Center's or Residential Schools. They are not your long term therapists - your family therapists - and most often are recently just in the picture. I am not saying they are all bad in general but I have a real problem with an Ed Consultant giving theraputic or parenting advice - does this person even have children of their own?
Buyer Beware is my new theme!
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'Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "trepanation." And as for giving him "speed," we relucantly agreed to try Adderall to help him with his ADHD. We had fought the idea and refused it for years. He says it is helping him with his concentration; his teachers see a difference too. I wonder if we had tried it earlier on if he would have then felt more success at school and then would not have turned to the drug-using, outcast crowd he has been hanging with. I would very much prefer he not be on any meds., but try to find an alternative -- we have spent a lot of time and effort trying to find other ways through alternative therapy, etc. and there's just not a lot out there, at least where we live. We finally think we have found some good people to help him. If you could have seen our son before he was being helped with meds. for his anxiety disorder, you would not be so quick to criticize/generalize about giving kids medication. He was a wreck.
I think it's important to respect that there are different solutions for different situations; just as wilderness camp is not the answer-all for every troubled kid, medicating your child is not always a bad decision if it's used in conjunction with productive therapy. Please don't throw stones...we're trying our best to do what's right for our kid and our situation.
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Thanks for your kind wisdom. I do agree that the threat of inpatient treatment (even though we are not presenting it as a "threat," but rather more intensive "help,") may be currently deterring him from use but is not helping him in the long run.
From what we have learned from family group, we have to create a safety net where he knows that he will have us there for him even if he slips up. I have to keep that in mind. We realize too that it IS ultimately up to him to make a lifelong commitment to sobriety...but as parents we are still in the "we can fix it" mode...but we try to remember the three Cs...we didn't cause it, we can't control it, and we can't cure it. Agggghh. It's tough.
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While you may be seeing some 'positive' effects from Adderall, you should be aware that there are potentially some long-term negative effects to his health.
My sister relented and put her son on Adderall in order to get other services for him- a quieter place to study/test. He was on it during the school year for a couple of years, and only during the week. He ate very little during the week, binged and puked all weekend. He is now having neuorlogical problems- severe, blinding migrane headaches that send them to the ER. I personally wouldn't consider this a 'solution'. It is just as damaging as if you were giving him small amounts of Cocaine on a daily basis. You can read more on the topic and consider some effective options in this thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... art=0#5474 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=903&forum=9&start=0#5474)
Search WWF for ADHD for more info worth considering.
There are studies that indicate that keeping a child at home and working as a family is more effective. Here's one:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =110#31298 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3865&forum=9&start=110#31298)
I think TSW has given some good advice in terms of developing a fun and supportive relationship with your child. I particularly appreciated his use of humor to defuse a potentially volatile situation:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=9&0 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11020&forum=9&0)
I think teens grow weary of all the seriousness around them. It's amazing how cooperative they become when situations are infused with a little humor. Common sense leading questions can also help them arrive at more constructive choices, and no resentment toward you for having lectured or demanded.
Anxiety = fear. What factors in your son's life could be causing fear or insecurity?
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Do you ever think your son might be smoking marijuana to help control his anxiety on his own?
Okay, this is going to seem completely politically incorrect but I will say it anyways. Did you ever think that adderall might be worse for him than marijuana is?
It really bothers me when drug counselors, or society in general will call you a 'drug user' for smoking marijuana, but taking adderall and similar medication is called just that, medication.
Marijuana is not a drug, it is a plant-- in it's God given natural form. You can even receive a prescription for marijuana now in 10 [maybe 12 now?] states.
Alcohol is a drug, meth and cocaine are drugs. These are physically addictive and pose much more risk to the average user of these substances than marijuana ever will.
I am not suggesting everyone tell their kids to go smoke pot, but what I do hope is that parents will eventually realize that villifying pot has negative consequences they never intended. I have met people afraid to touch pot, and have no problem downing 8 beers a day for years non-stop. People who think 'E' is safer than pot, etc. This is all due to the governement propoganda over the decades, and this generation of parents have taken it to heart. They actually believe marijuana is dangerous for some reason.
My point? Smoking pot is not life threatening, it is life enhancing. People smoke pot for a reason, because it helps. Unlike prozac, buspar and similar drugs, pot actually works- and doesn't have any nasty side effects. Other than possibly eating too many oreos! :lol:
[/end rant]
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On 2005-07-30 06:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My husband and son just got back from a rigorous group camping and canoeing trip. They really enjoyed it and we plan on more trips. The only piece you suggested that we're missing is the month-long outdoor/wilderness ("non-therapeutic") experience but we have a place in mind that sounds appropriate if that is the path we decide to take.
It is exhausting, sometimes downright hellish, but it just makes so much more sense to work things out at home. We have always been a close, loving family and we will NOT give up on our son. He has been dealt an alcoholic, drug-abusing gene pool, as well as other mental health issues that have made him more prone to drug abuse, and our sometimes too-flexible parenting hasn't helped, but we are in this together and will fight it through.
"
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
Please don't give up on your son! He will know what you did for him when he is older, believe me. :smile:
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On 2005-07-30 07:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"'Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "trepanation." And as for giving him "speed," we relucantly agreed to try Adderall to help him with his ADHD.
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to throw stones. I don't presume to know anywhere near enough about you, your son or the rest of the situation to tell you what to do. I do, however, know of some common pitfalls when dealing w/ the helping industry.
I have a daughter who has a serious physical ailment requiring ongoing (probably lifelong) medical attention. She's seen at clinic from time to time by a tag team of some of the finest physicians on the plane (no joke, they're world renowned in their field) While I like and respect them all, my favorite is the old guy who is the primary researcher on the team. He's the one who will come into the room, look over the meds list and start asking questions directed at reducing that list. Very often, by the time we land on his rotation, there are meds and therapies going on that conflict w/ each other.
That's pretty much my context for reference when I hear about amphetamines and anxiety. If the meds are working, great! But what's wrong w/ using cannabis if it helps too? Aside, of course, from the fact that (at the moment) it's illegal. Most medical pros who are familiar w/ the effects and research on cannabis agree that it is not addictive. So it's hard to understand why you'd have your son treated for cannabis addiction, unless someone's pulling your leg on that one.
Here's a link on trepanation:
http://www.trepanationguide.com/ (http://www.trepanationguide.com/)
I'm being snide here. But I'm trying to make a point. There really are reasonably inteligent, successful people who actually believe that you can inprove your mental health by drilling a hole in your skull. I find that just exactly as compelling as those reasonably inteligent, successful people who believe that forced behavior mod is good for troubled kids.
It is wrong to leave a stumbling stone in the road after it has tripped you.
Hands Out Light
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On 2005-07-30 09:20:00, Antigen wrote:
"
Here's a link on trepanation:
http://www.trepanationguide.com/ (http://www.trepanationguide.com/)"
That is very disturbing. :scared:
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I don't disagree with what anyone is saying--and if marijuana was legal and could be injested without smoking it, and if it was regulated for quality, etc. I would be all for him using it. He has said that it makes him feel normal. (Smoking it or cigarettes for that matter will kill him, sooner or later. We lost my father-in-law at age 52 from smoking-induced cancer and that's yet another reason I don't want him smoking anything.) But he's already in the legal system (arrested for possession); he's already been suspended from school for possession, and the reality is that it's NOT legal now--so we have to live with the reality.
I totally agree that we and other parents focus too much on the negative, are too serious, and need to lighten up. I just get anxious because I know where he could be heading, given the fact that we have seen a lot of friends' lives ruined due to drug/alcohol use.
But in the end, he has to make the decisions that will shape his life. We know that. We are just trying to give him the guidance and tools we think he needs. We are also aware that we need to back off, and we are doing that, so he can make his own choices and live with the consequences of his own choices, good or not so good.
I really appreciate all of your thoughts--thanks!
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Parents- you would be better off getting advice from http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) than from here. This site is a militaristic group of disgruntled teens and young adults (with a few disgruntled adults thrown in who can't get past their teens) and the advice is not reliable.
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On 2005-07-30 12:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Parents- you would be better off getting advice from http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) than from here. This site is a militaristic group of disgruntled teens and young adults (with a few disgruntled adults thrown in who can't get past their teens) and the advice is not reliable. "
Strugglingteens.com is a hategroup, managed and populated by parents who GAVE UP ON THEIR KIDS, and sent them off to be abused and programmed. While the kids endure all these horrors, their parents post on the strugglingteens.com message board, patting each other on the back and assuring each other that they have made "the loving choice" :roll: for their kid.
These are parents who gave up on being parents. These are parents who blame their children for their own deficiencies, and who refuse to take responsibilty for what is going on in their own homes. Instead of taking actions, they pay strangers to raise their child for them.
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I think that, as parental worries go, marijuana is extremely overblown. Oh, if only it were just the parents and not so many other adults w/ authority over kids. I wonder if there's a way to get a Canadian rx for Sativex
http://www.gwpharm.com/ (http://www.gwpharm.com/) If, in fact, it's a better drug for your son than amphetamines, that would remove the smoking, legal concerns and most of the 'forbidden fruit' allure.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/ ... 3022.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/03/05/48hours/main503022.shtml)
But, bottom line, the only thing I really worry about from what you've said is the idea of your putting him in long term residential drug treatment over this. There is no such thing as marijuana addiction. Habituation? Yes. But that's not an illness that can be treated, it's a choice or series of choices. I can't emphasize enough to you what a monumental mind f*** it is to be imprisoned by a bunch of anti-drug zealots who insist that you confess and then pretend and/or believe you're an addict when you're not.
The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran
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As a parent of a teen, (not militaristic, not disgruntled, just trying to do the right thing for our child) I would much rather be conversing with people on this site, young, old, disgruntled or not. At least these are real people with real experiences. Don't believe all you read on http://www.strugglingteeens.com...it's (http://www.strugglingteeens.com...it's) not what it seems.
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On 2005-07-30 13:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-30 12:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Parents- you would be better off getting advice from http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) than from here. This site is a militaristic group of disgruntled teens and young adults (with a few disgruntled adults thrown in who can't get past their teens) and the advice is not reliable. "
Strugglingteens.com is a hategroup, managed and populated by parents who GAVE UP ON THEIR KIDS, and sent them off to be abused and programmed. While the kids endure all these horrors, their parents post on the strugglingteens.com message board, patting each other on the back and assuring each other that they have made "the loving choice" :roll: for their kid.
These are parents who gave up on being parents. These are parents who blame their children for their own deficiencies, and who refuse to take responsibilty for what is going on in their own homes. Instead of taking actions, they pay strangers to raise their child for them. "
Not only that, these struggling parents appear to have a chip on their shoulder the size of a boulder.
All they do is whine, pat each other on the back every time a kid gets sent away, and kiss the butt of their moderator who deletes the dreadful anti-teen-help posts.
It's downright disgusting.
Censorship is alive and well in Teen Help Land.
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The heavy handed censorship is my major complaint with Lon's board.
I understand they want to avoid situations like they had when Sue and her alter egos were posting away; but they have taken the "moderating" to far, IMO.
I have often thought it was really no more than an extension of the Program's BBS. Its very easy to get yourself banned over there.
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Sorry I mentioned the evil word 'marijuana'. It's a plant. Think for yourselves. :roll:
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On 2005-07-30 12:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Parents- you would be better off getting advice from http://www.strugglingteen.com (http://www.strugglingteen.com) than from here. This site is a militaristic group of disgruntled teens and young adults (with a few disgruntled adults thrown in who can't get past their teens) and the advice is not reliable. "
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Struggling teens is run by an EDCON who makes money off sending kids to programs. This is their version of marketing I suppose.
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On 2005-07-30 14:45:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"I have often thought it was really no more than an extension of the Program's BBS. Its very easy to get yourself banned over there.
"
Why bother going over there? Enough of those freaks find their way over here. Trolls! :wave:
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Ok, I'm going to talk to one of their admins over there and see if we can get them to control their people. I'm getting really tired of the trolls from struggling teens, their a bunch of hypocrates.
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On 2005-07-30 12:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Parents- you would be better off getting advice from http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) than from here. This site is a militaristic group of disgruntled teens and young adults (with a few disgruntled adults thrown in who can't get past their teens) and the advice is not reliable. "
Shut up, you disgusting little puke. You're a maggot!
Toe the line or your ass will be on PT and KP 'til you cry like a sissy-baby!
Don't eyball me! What are you looking at? Are you attracted to me, puke? You turned faggot?
What's the matter? You gonna cry for MaryJane Rottencrotch? Jody's got your girl, so deal with it, maggot.
Shine those boots and adjust your gig-line or your sorry ass wil be on the rockpile, GI!
DO YOU HEAR ME, MAGGOT?
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Now THAT is a fine example of maturity and helpful input, Dysfunction Junction. I guess you didn't stick with your therapy!
The parents on strugglingteens have not "given up" on their kids. To the contrary, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice- sending their child away from home for help.
You people over here will never "get it" and are accomplishing nothing. I don't think you understand how truly in the minority you are, and how very few abuses really have occurred. Hell, the Catholic church has a much bigger problem than the teen help industry. MOST of these programs are run by people who are properly trained and educated and have started the programs because they sincerely want to help these families and teens.
Parents- if you have questions on specific programs, post on strugglingteens and you will get honest and thorough responses- from people who actually can construct a sentence.
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If fornits is the minority why do you sick fucks have to come over here trying to find parents? Because this site is 100 times the size of yours, that's why. Your group of a few dozen psycho parents can keep congratulating themselves on 'making the hardest decision of their life' and continue to use your 'tools' to emotional fuck over your offspring.
It's ironic isn't it? We stay on our site and tell people about our own experiences and somehow we are on a crusade? Yet it is YOU who comes onto this site telling everybody they are wrong. Get over yourself, nobody gives a shit what you say here. But at least we LET you say it.
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The parents on strugglingteens have not "given up" on their kids. To the contrary, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice- sending their child away from home for help.
Couldn't go a post without saying this could you?
Fuck you for thinking YOU made the ultimate sacrifice. Your CHILD did, in most cases, against their will. You merely did what the EDCON told you to do. You are a dollar sign and don't even know it.
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We actually made the initial choice without an EdCon (after research). The programs we picked were excellent and no one profited at all from our decision. When we did bring in a local EdCon, we paid her a very low flat fee. She also helped us with choices of future schools and colleges.
Our kid was very angry initially, but got a lot out of both programs, by his own admission. So-sorry-we are one of the success stories, of which there are many.
It is really sad that some of you have so much anger and are unwilling to understand that for most of these kids, program placement is the right thing. I agree that there are exceptions, but your ignorance and anger are clouding what is left of your brain.
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"It's ironic isn't it? We stay on our site and tell people about our own experiences and somehow we are on a crusade? Yet it is YOU who comes onto this site telling everybody they are wrong. Get over yourself, nobody gives a shit what you say here."
Actually, you don't stay on your site. That is why we are all over here. Some of you interfered on our site with worthless crap and led us to discover YOUR site! Glad we are so welcome to post what we want. We love all the 4 letter word responses. So mature.
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One 17 year old kid who never went to a program invaded your crap site. Why don't you delete him if that's a problem? You've deleted plenty before his time. And yes, feel free to post whatever you want. The freedom feels great doesnt it? FUCK FUCK FUCK you.
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On 2005-07-31 07:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Now THAT is a fine example of maturity and helpful input, Dysfunction Junction. I guess you didn't stick with your therapy!
The parents on strugglingteens have not "given up" on their kids. To the contrary, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice- sending their child away from home for help.
You people over here will never "get it" and are accomplishing nothing. I don't think you understand how truly in the minority you are, and how very few abuses really have occurred. Hell, the Catholic church has a much bigger problem than the teen help industry. MOST of these programs are run by people who are properly trained and educated and have started the programs because they sincerely want to help these families and teens.
Parents- if you have questions on specific programs, post on strugglingteens and you will get honest and thorough responses- from people who actually can construct a sentence."
You didn't make a sacrifice. Your child did. You made your child sacrifice their childhood, their safety, their health, in many cases their sanity and basic trust in humanity. It was your choice to put them through all that. Yours alone.
You gave up on your child. You threw your child to the lions' den, to be hurt time and time again. And you call that "love"? You are sick and pathetic.
The people on Fornits are not in the minority. People like you, who believe parenting is all biology and has no emotional component to it (which is why you send your child to be raised by others), are in the minority. It takes a special kind of madness to hand your child over to be hurt and abused, and convince yourself that by harming your child, you are saving his/her life.
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My child did not sacrifice his childhood, his safety OR his health. In fact, we sent him to the program so he would BE safe, and he was. His nutrition was better, he was away from drugs and alcohol and he was healthy. He did give up a year of his life to mature and gain perspective- I wouldn't refer to that year as part of "childhood". Giving an angry, at-risk teenager the chance to turn his life around doesn't seem like such a sacrifice. Yep-he lost the ability to steal things, hurt other people, ruin his future, destroy his family.....what a terrible sacrifice he made.
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My child did not sacrifice his childhood, his safety OR his health. In fact, we sent him to the program so he would BE safe, and he was.
How do you know that? Oh, because the PROGRAM told you. And, of course, your child's cries for help were just "manipulation". :roll:
His nutrition was better, he was away from drugs and alcohol and he was healthy.
How do you know his nutrition was better?
How do you know he was away from drugs and alcohol? In many of these facilities, the staff often give students drugs and alcohol.
And how do you know he was healthy?
Hey, here's a revolutaionary idea: How about you BEING A PARENT and taking care of all this on your own?
He did give up a year of his life to mature and gain perspective- I wouldn't refer to that year as part of "childhood".
Children do not "mature" in programs. If anything, they regress to infanthood. They are not allowed to experience independence, because they are not allowed to make even the simplest decisions. They are not allowed to experience maturity, because they are constantly treated as babies who must be contained, restricted, restrained. Their growth is stunted.
What "perspective" did you son gain? What lessons has he learned? He leanred to survive in a highly hostile, abusive environment. He's learned how easly will his own parents abandon him. He learned never to trust you again. He learned he must put on a show for you if he doesn't want to be sent back into hell.
Giving an angry, at-risk teenager the chance to turn his life around doesn't seem like such a sacrifice. Yep-he lost the ability to steal things, hurt other people, ruin his future, destroy his family.....what a terrible sacrifice he made.
Children who go through these programs lose the ability to trust others, because they have learned they can't trust their own parents, who are supposed to protect and support them. Their parents abandoned them (by sending them away) and betrayed them (by dismissing their cries for help as "manipulation").
Children who go through these programs lose the ability to feel safe. After months or years of being constantly watched, punished harshly for even the slightest infraction, being watched at all times-- even while showering or undressing (99.9% of all programs do this), and having to follow excessively restrictive r8ules taht change on the whim of the unqualified, untrained staff-- these children learn that they can't be safe anymore. They learn that there is always someone watching, waiting to hurt them.
Children who go through these programs lose their innocence, their ambition, their drive, and in some cases their will to live. Their souls are murdered. You have sent your son off to be slaughtered. Way to go, mom. Pat yourself on the back and tell yourself again that you made the "loving choice". Ignore your son's nightmares, anxiety, and reports of abuse-- it's all "manipulation" anyway, isn't it, "Mom"? :roll:
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Uh-what you are saying bears absolutely no resemblance to the programs my son attended. I don't know where you are dreaming up all this crap, but maybe you should check out some of the programs the parents are actually sending kids to! Many of the TBSs are very similar to prep boarding schools, but with many more restrictions and lots of therapy.
Do you really think we, as parents, are stupid enough to just hand our kids over without knowing a lot about these programs and others who have been through them? Do you really think our kids are two year olds who can not communicate abuse to us? Many of our kids have been home for a year or two now, and we have NO reports of any abuse. Yep-there were lots of consequences for breaking rules. Some of these seemed silly. Lessons were learned from most of them. These are kids who are now in college, in many cases. It hink they could figure out if they had been abused.
You are a moron.
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Uh-what you are saying bears absolutely no resemblance to the programs my son attended.
If that is true, then I'm happy for oyur son.
I don't know where you are dreaming up all this crap,
Dreaming up? More like talking to people who've been through it. Unlike you.
but maybe you should check out some of the programs the parents are actually sending kids to! Many of the TBSs are very similar to prep boarding schools, but with many more restrictions and lots of therapy.
Bullshit. Many of the TBSs are very similar to a POW camp.
Do you really think we, as parents, are stupid enough to just hand our kids over without knowing a lot about these programs and others who have been through them?
YES! You do it all the time! You believe the program propaganda, you believe their "reference lists", but you don't believe the kids who've been there and know about the horrors that happen behind the walls.
Do you really think our kids are two year olds who can not communicate abuse to us?
You kids are not two year olds. And, no, they can't tell you if things go wrong. Why, you ask?
Because most facilities censore their mail. Becuase they are often told by the program staff their parents know about the abuse and aprove of it. Because the parents themselves are constantly told they can't trust their own children, and that any reports of abuse are "manipulations".
Many of our kids have been home for a year or two now, and we have NO reports of any abuse. Yep-there were lots of consequences for breaking rules. Some of these seemed silly. Lessons were learned from most of them. These are kids who are now in college, in many cases. It hink they could figure out if they had been abused.
Surprisingly, many of them can't. After being told for months and years that it's "for their own good", after reading letters by their parents in which their parents back the program up, after being subjected to the stress and psychological damage that result from going through a program-- many of them are no longer sure what is abuse and what isn't. And many of them accept the program's line, that what was done to them was not abuse, even though many times, what happened in the program will be considered abuse by normal measures.
You are a moron.
No, you are the moron. Unfortunately, it's your child who is paying for your stupidity.
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On 2005-07-31 07:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Now THAT is a fine example of maturity and helpful input, Dysfunction Junction. I guess you didn't stick with your therapy!
The parents on strugglingteens have not "given up" on their kids. To the contrary, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice- sending their child away from home for help.
You people over here will never "get it" and are accomplishing nothing. I don't think you understand how truly in the minority you are, and how very few abuses really have occurred. Hell, the Catholic church has a much bigger problem than the teen help industry. MOST of these programs are run by people who are properly trained and educated and have started the programs because they sincerely want to help these families and teens.
Parents- if you have questions on specific programs, post on strugglingteens and you will get honest and thorough responses- from people who actually can construct a sentence."
What makes you think I was ever IN therapy? I haven't been, and most likely will not be.
The fact of the matter is that I am a highly educated professional with masters degrees in both Social Work and Business Administration. I worked at two BM warehouses and know first-hand what goes on there. You do not, and it's abundantly clear.
I was simply poking fun at your factually bereft pontification that the people who post on this site are "militaristic." That staement is farcical and laughable, as most everyone on this site would be considered "liberal" by conventional standards and are opposed to violence of any sort, especially against children, which you clearly espouse by publicly advocating these abusive "programs."
Now, to address your "ultimate sacrifice," as you so pompously expressed it:
Giving your children away to strangers to be "fixed" is the polar-opposite of the "ultimate sacrifice."
I would submit that it is also the height of hypocrisy. Sending your child away is a tacit admission of parental failure on your part and a "cop out" to avoid the reality of your failed raising your own offspring.
Tell the parents of soldiers who have died in the line of duty in Iraq that their children didn't make the ultimate sacrifice by fighting and dying for your freedom, but rather YOU did by completely abdicating your parental mandate and handing over your kid to a behavior modification warehouse for reprogramming because you simply weren't willing to do what was necessary to nurture them into emotional growth and stability.
So get down off your soapbox, shut your trap and think before you deign to lecture others about a subject on which you are an abject failure, as you have become a self-revealed moron of monolithic proportion.
By the way, whether or not your kids tell you anything about their lives (which I doubt with sincerity), they do completely understand exactly what a failure you are for quitting on them when they needed you most.
Good day.
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OK- I get it. You weren't ever in therapy. It's all clear now. You need to be! Yep, we failed as parents. I'll admit that. It's a tough job these days. I did many things wrong as a parent. I set a bad example, I raged, I spent too much time at my job. Having failed, we turned to professional help for our kid and ourselves. It worked. My kid is doing great. He isn't wasting his time moaning and groaning about losing a year of his life. He's taken some of the tools and moved on. I guess you don't believe in seeking professional medical care, either.
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He was not moaning and groaning about a year of his life being striped from him, because you would of sent him back. Because you can't take it when some one disagrees with you or speaks up and out. So here is the question, if you have failed as a parent, if you have messed and fucked everything up, why are you not sent away to be abused? Why are you not tossed in a fucking camp like your kid? Remember, its your fault, so you should be sent away too.
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On 2005-07-31 11:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"OK- I get it. You weren't ever in therapy. It's all clear now. You need to be! Yep, we failed as parents. I'll admit that. It's a tough job these days. I did many things wrong as a parent. I set a bad example, I raged, I spent too much time at my job. Having failed, we turned to professional help for our kid and ourselves. It worked. My kid is doing great. He isn't wasting his time moaning and groaning about losing a year of his life. He's taken some of the tools and moved on. I guess you don't believe in seeking professional medical care, either. "
You realize, THIS PERSON is the professional medical help you sought, I'd say they know what they're talking about.
I worked at two BM warehouses and know first-hand what goes on there. You do not, and it's abundantly clear.
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On 2005-07-31 11:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"OK- I get it. You weren't ever in therapy. It's all clear now. You need to be! Yep, we failed as parents. I'll admit that. It's a tough job these days. I did many things wrong as a parent. I set a bad example, I raged, I spent too much time at my job. Having failed, we turned to professional help for our kid and ourselves. It worked. My kid is doing great. He isn't wasting his time moaning and groaning about losing a year of his life. He's taken some of the tools and moved on. I guess you don't believe in seeking professional medical care, either. "
Why do you think I need therapy? I don't understand...
You are the one who, by your own admission, had (or has) the copious list of problems enumerated in your post, not me.
Is it because you feel small and weak when someone points out your own admitted failures?
If so, don't you agree that you need to look at that rather than pointing the finger at me, someone who does not have these problems or exhibit these maladaptive behaviors?
And, once again, let me correct your fallacious logic. I DO believe in professional medical care. Now, please tell me how your child was helped by medical professionals.
I already know how he WASN'T helped by unlicensed, unregulated, unaccredited pseudo-therapeutic hacks, so we can skip that explanation.
Congratulations, though, on your epiphany that you made terrible mistakes rearing your child. Now if you could just admit that quitting on him and sending him away with strangers to be fixed was ONE of those mistakes, I'd say you're on your way to a meaningful breakthrough.
In the meantime, you should stop trying to advise me on my own mental health. Remember, you screwed your kid up and then shipped him out to god-knows-where because you are feeble-minded and inadequate, not me.
Take care, and good luck with your therapy!
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On 2005-07-31 10:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
Do you really think we, as parents, are stupid enough to just hand our kids over without knowing a lot about these programs and others who have been through them?
Answer: Yes.
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There's been a real sea change on this site since Brat Camp appeared
Same faces mocking/attacking all programs and schools---but lots and lots of posts from parents and others who seem to have a more positive view of (atleast some of)these interventions.
A person only has to look at the archives to see the ever increasing number of positive posts, must make y'all think that the barbarians are really at the gates!!
Interesting thing is maybe the advent of Brat Camp---which I personally loathe as intrusive to these kids'privacy---may have the same energizing effect on the viewing population at large in terms of acceptance of these kinds of programs and schools
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I was not totally against these programs when I first heard about them. However, I have always been against the show. The name "Brat Camp" says it all. It is nothing less than child abuse for parents to allow their kids to be exploited on television. I'm sure the producers, who are making millions off the suffering of others, don't care. But the parents, viewers, and the LAW should know better. To put a sexually abused child on television and let the world watch his/her pain for entertainment is simply another form of abuse. There are excellent (and probably cheaper) PRIVATE programs offered by hospitals around the country.
As for the programs themselves, I was unaware that anyone had died as a result of the treatment allowed at these camps. Where are the police?????? Why aren't these MURDERERS in jail????????????? If a parent spanked their child for misbehaving in public, society and the law would react more harshly than they obviously have to these programs. This is an outrage!!!!!!!!!!
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Because they're 'just' misbehaving teens. Abuse, Death... all justified, because after all, they'd be 'deadorinjail' otherwise. Parents and society in general fear angry teens, possibly more so than adult perpetrators.
We live in a violent culture that gets off on punishing people who will not buck up, accept or settle for never having their real needs met. This industry is but one ugly manifestation of a very anti-life society, Matrix.
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There have been just a FEW tragic incidents- just as there are with day care facilities, elder-care facilities etc. There have been a few programs that were more boot-camp than psychiatric in nature. Many on this board have taken these few incidents as an indictment against ALL programs. Most of the wilderness programs, emotional growth schools and substance abuse treatment facilities have caring staff with much expertise in the field. The leaders of many of the programs are passionate about helping teens. Yes, rules are strictly enforced. Yes, privileges have to be earned. The teens that are sent to these programs are not just coming in after curfew or smoking a few joints- they are engaging in behavior dangerous to themselves and others. They have, in many cases, been arrested. They have exhibited extreme violence towards their parents and siblings. The parents have exhausted all avenues- and I do mean ALL avenues. While the kids are at a wilderness program or therapeutic boarding school, the parents are working closely with the psychologist (a licensed person, in the case of all reputable programs) to examine family dynamics and how they can improve their relationship with their son or daughter. Painful disclosures might be made by the parents and the teens. Usually the teen admits to behavior way beyond what the parents had suspected.
These programs are not punitive. They are therapeutic. The therapists we worked with while our kid was in programs were the brightest and most gifted men and women I have ever met. Our kid would agree. Did he hate being at the program? Absolutely. Did he realize pretty quickly that his own conduct got him there? Yes. Did he come out a better person? No question.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those that torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."--C.S. Lewis, God In The Dock
I think the human race encountered Peak Intelligence decades or centuries ago. The human race has been degrading into imbeciles ever since.
Eric Hufschmid
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On 2005-07-31 12:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
As for the programs themselves, I was unaware that anyone had died as a result of the treatment allowed at these camps. Where are the police?????? Why aren't these MURDERERS in jail????????????? If a parent spanked their child for misbehaving in public, society and the law would react more harshly than they obviously have to these programs. This is an outrage!!!!!!!!!!
Well, occasionally, the law makes a nice gesture toward doing the right thing.
http://leehiphopshow.ipbhost.com/lofive ... t3687.html (http://leehiphopshow.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t3687.html)
I think he only got like 4 - 6 years or something. But it's just damned hard to get a serious investigation, even in extreme cases. Fact is, kids have no credibility on our society, especially those who's own parents will testify against them. It's not hard for a reasonably intelligent adult to manipulate a kid into acting out. It's damned near impossible for the kid to understand, far less explain, how that happened.
All of these comforting and reasonable things were taught by the ministers in their pulpits -- by teachers in Sunday schools and by parents at home. The children were victims. They were assaulted in the cradle -- in their mother's arms. Then, the schoolmaster carried on the war against their natural sense, and all the books they read were filled with the same impossible truths. The poor children were helpless. The atmosphere they breathed was filled with lies -- lies that mingled with their blood.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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The teens that are sent to these programs are not just coming in after curfew or smoking a few joints-
That's EXACTLY what my parents sent me to one for.
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Few tragic insidentent? Whats a few? A one digit number? a two digit number? I mean come on. We are talking murders here. One death is never too few to shut a place down. And you compare it to a elder-care facility. I don?t think the people at the elder-care people were laughing at the old people, calling them fakers, and druggies. And yes, guess what a few incidences is enough to indeed every one in the industry because these places are wide spread. Its not like it was in one program, or one person that did this, it?s across the industry things like this happen. To note the wilderness people may have knowledgeable therapy people, but they do not have knowledgeable wilderness people. I would not trust any of my charges with these people.
You also talk about privileges being earned, well guess what, even death row inmates get mail that is not read. The mail is a right that is extended to every one. To read it is a violation of civil rights and federal laws. This happens throughout the industry.
You say parents work closely with therapists to see if this is the right thing and to see that all avenues are broached. Well I call you a liar! My friend was sent off with no consult to anyone, and a few quick searches on the web.
These programs are plenty punitive, and indeed they tend to hurt those that come in contact with them. Is it not punitive to take a city kid, that has never gone on a hike in his life and toss him into a 8 week woods camp? The kid has no knowledge and is I'll prepared for what could be a life and death experience if anything goes wrong. It can change quickly, as I know. Forcing children to be strip searched, forcing children to eat their food, LIKE 3 YEAR OLDS, and offering shit for food. Is very punitive.
Indeed, if parents put themselves through the same thing, they would balk and sue the people. But you don?t, because you have not balls to do it. Remember never ask some one to do something you would not do. And indeed, you would never willngly go to prison.
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Overlordd, the little I can understand of your totally horrible writing re-emphasizes that you have no clue about the MAJORITY of these programs. You have been told over and over again over on the other board that your arguments are weak- not to mention incoherent.
The good programs are not punitive and have impeccable safety records.
Get over it.
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Please provide a list of programs that you feel are safe and not punitive.
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I think I know who the annon is. I have seen that arguing style before, you know, of not answering a damned thing you say and being very condisending in return. His name is mose, I believe anyway.
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Would it help the disucussion if we could all agree that there are boot camps and there is wilderness therapy abd they are not the same thing?
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SOME of them are not boot camps. Others are. I draw the line at compulsion. If a kid wants to go on a dangerous and exciting wilderness adventure, that's fine w/ me. But you can't ethically force a kid to 1) risk their life and 2) engage in non-consensual intimate discussion w/ strangers.
It is the old practice of despots to use a part of the people to keep
the rest in order; and those who have once got an ascendency and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues and offices, have immense means for retaining their advantages.
--Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1798
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Of course these kids don't want to go on a "dangerous and exciting wilderness adventure". They want to stay home and get stoned, skip school and have sex. It is ethically just find to force them to go. They can choose whether or not to talk to the therapists. They figure out soon enough that things will progress better for them if they do.
By the way, I think Mose is a woman.
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On 2005-07-31 15:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Of course these kids don't want to go on a "dangerous and exciting wilderness adventure". They want to stay home and get stoned, skip school and have sex. It is ethically just find to force them to go. They can choose whether or not to talk to the therapists. They figure out soon enough that things will progress better for them if they do.
By the way, I think Mose is a woman. "
Belive it or not, but most of these kids just want to stay at home and have a family they can rely on. Not a stupid, lazy, cruel parent who will send them away to be tortured, forced to talk about their intimate issues with strangers, and march for miles and miles carrying heavy packs for no reason whatsoever.
These kids neeed PARENTS. So instead of paying someone to raise your child for you, why don't you start taking responsibility for what's going on in your own house and BE A PARENT.
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Don't think we were "stupid, lazy and cruel", but do agree that the family dynamics had failed. However, the teen needed to take ownership of his role in that failure- lying, stealing,drinking, wrecking cars, selling pot, not going to school..... During wilderness (he liked the hiking, by the way) he did take ownership of those things.
Do you really consider sending a teen to a therapeutic program for a year or two "paying someone else to raise your child"? These "children" have become a threat to themselves and others. I still haven't heard any wisdom from you morons on a better way to address this. Let them go to jail? Let them have a fatal car accident? Let them destroy their home?
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How many of the kids in wilderness therapy have a diagnosable mental illness? I know mine did. Years of therapy at home (including family therapy, which my kids willingly went to because they knew it would make me a better parent) made no dent. I would have been a derelict parent if I did NOT try to get my child all the help in the world. I did my homework and found reputable and effective care for my child. It happened to be outside.
BTW, no one cuts and pastes the stories here on to another site just to make fun of the pain. That's just cruel.
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Don't think we were "stupid, lazy and cruel", but do agree that the family dynamics had failed. However, the teen needed to take ownership of his role in that failure- lying, stealing,drinking, wrecking cars, selling pot, not going to school.....
How about you "taking ownership" for your part in this? Instead of dumping the problem on a bunch of strangers, why don't you own up and work it out? Why are you so desperate to scam your way out of raising your kid?
Do you really consider sending a teen to a therapeutic program for a year or two "paying someone else to raise your child"?
Yes, I do. Raising a kid is not all fun and games. It also involves helping them through difficult situations. Instead of doing that, you just sent your kid off to be raised by strangers when things got a little rough. A year or two during the teenage years is a very long time. During that time, you have nothing to do with your teen's day-to-day life. In most programs, you are not even allowed free communication and visits with your own child. You are completely cut off of your child's life.
These "children" have become a threat to themselves and others.
Was your child suicidal? Assaultive? No? then, no, he/she was not a "threat to themselves and others".
If your child was/is suicidal/assaultive, seek *professional* help (that means professional psychiatrists/psychologists, not some underqualified "fix-a-teen" quack).
I still haven't heard any wisdom from you morons on a better way to address this. Let them go to jail? Let them have a fatal car accident? Let them destroy their home?
How about you getting involved? How about you talking to your kid for a change, finding out why they do the things they do. Behaviors don't come out of nowhere. There are reasons for all this. You talk about the benefits of "wilderness programs"-- how about you take that "wilderness trip" alongside your child? Take a break from the usual routine, in a neutral environment.
And here's a truly revolutionary idea: stick by your kid. Don't abandon them in a strange, oppressive, abusive program just because you got tired of being a parent.
It doesn't really matter what I'll say, though. You'll just going to try harder to justify your poor judgement and bad choices. You are just going to try harder to justify your choice to abandon your child when they needed you most. You are one sick individual.
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***They can choose whether or not to talk to the therapists.
Which program are you refering to? That comment demonstrates how little you know, or want to know. They aren't going to let a kid sit silently in group or private sessions (if they have the latter). They will be forced, overtly or covertly.
***They figure out soon enough that things will progress better for them if they do.
Yes, when they get hungry enough. Enough punishment can motivate them to even make something up if need be, in order to appear in compliance and avoid further punishment.
Not to mention, forced confessions like smoking pot or being sexually active, resulting in the kid being labeled an addict or slut, which is held over them the remainder of their stay.
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***However, the teen needed to take ownership of his role in that failure- lying, stealing, drinking, wrecking cars, selling pot, not going to school.....
First, I find it weird how you speak of your son in third person (the teen), like an inanimate object.
Another way of saying this- My son would benefit from realizing that he was in reaction to not having his needs met.
It's amazing how quick kids are to accept their part in the difficulty when their parents cop to their own faults and shortcomings. Doesn't take months of trekking through blizzards or stiffling heat to get there; or years living under the punitive microscope of a 'program'.
***These "children" have become a threat to themselves and others.
Again, THESE children? Which children? Thousands of teens, including my own sons, were sent to programs and were NOT a threat to themselves or anyone else. They were a pain in the ass for their step mother.
Far as I can tell, many of the children of posters on ST have kids who they still consider to be a threat to themselves and others, even after years of wilderness/TBS.
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God- why didn't I think of THAT? Damn. I should have ASKED my teen why he did the things he did! Yeah, I just gave up when things got "a little rough"- when he was in the ER after yet another overturned car. H E L L O, idiots! We did EVERYTHING possible.
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Including giving him the keys to a car?
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Sure, we "gave" him the keys to the car. Get real.
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Man does this ST troll like to talk. :lol:
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If I were you I wouldn't be so quick to judge other parents on how they handle their kids' problems---didn't the courts take your kids out of your control entirely???
Isn't that what you're always bitching and moaning about--that your kids were put into some kind of program by the courts and/or your ex--- without your permission???
You know---just because you were a horrible parent doesn't mean that everyone is: so don't be worrying about inconsequential things like whether some parent here refers to a child in the "third person"---as your recent clueless post is focused on
Most of us are good-enough parents---we don't have some court telling us how to raise our kids--- if we need this kind of intervention, a wilderness program or a school, and we can pay for it---we make that choice---with guidance from those whom we trust
That would not---in my books at least---include you---somebody who lost control of her own kids to "others" and who now fights a futileamd ego-driven battle to prove that those "others" made a wrong choice---you are the last person to whom I would come for guidance in raising my kids.
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Good Enough Parent,
You are misrepresenting me and my situation. If it's intentional, stop. If you read that somewhere, post the link. My story is here, but it doesn't vaguely resemble your assinine comments.
Do you not have answers for the questions that have been posed, or are you ignoring them?
I don't think I'd venture to 'guide' you either. I dont' waste my time on nuts that won't crack.
Did you pay for it? Or did your school district? Did your insurance company pay for institutionalized 'parenting'? Did you take tax write offs for trips to see your 'disabled' kid?
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-07-31 19:58 ]
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Yep, Deb. You are a piece of work. The parenting expert!! I now remember-your axe to grind is that you didn't get to make the decisions about your kids. So-those of us who had the ability to make choices are bad parents!
We tend to speak in the third person to emphasize that we are not just speaking of our own kids, but those of many of us caring parents on the strugglingteens board.
I noticed on the Island View thread that a number of former teens believe Island View saved their lives. They are saying this here on THIS FORUM. Whoops-don't they know that this is only for people wanting to bash programs!
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Wrong again. I don't fit into any of your pat catagories for parents who aren't on board with warehousing their kids.
FWIW, third person sound cold.... detatched.... emotionally void.... I personally think referring to your child in third person (the kid, the teen) can allow you to forget they are human beings with feelings and needs, and to subject them to all manner of inappropriate 'treatment'.
And of course, I realize it is frequently used to create bonds with other struggling parents.
Now, back to those questions. Any answers?
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YOU FUCKING INSULTING ANIMAL!!!
I go to that board and I'm nice, I post politely even though I hate you and I disagree. Then you bastards come over here and you dont even act civil? You are comeplete hypocates, no wonder your kids are so fucked up!!! No wonder they hate you!!! I spit on you and everything you stand for.
You are not caring!!! You sent your kid away!! Guess FUCKING WHAT!!! THATS NOT CARING!!! CARING IS NEVER LETTING IT HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE. One day your kid will see this and he/ she will hate you and everything you are, but you will say you are right, because you are blind!!!
You say we are a hate group? You are worse, we may hate you, but you, you come the fuck over here, dont even have the balls to sign your post, and you act like your perfect little fucks raising your kids they way it was ment to happen. You are hypocates, you stand at Struggling teens and act like your all good and open minded but your more blind than us, all of you are animals, and dishonorable shit that I would not take the time to scrape off my boot.
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yeah, I needed to vent, I feel better now.
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you're right on OverLordd, don't let these bad parents get you down. I really respect what you're doing.
The point is this: There are too many cases of abuse and wrongful deaths that have occured at wilderness camps and teen treatment facilities.
Parents don't bother to intervene in their child's lives until the behavior becomes a threat, i.e. crashing cars, selling drugs, getting in fights. A good parent is one who respects their child, and their child's privacy, but who knows their child well enough to recognize the first signs that something is wrong. Any parent that makes a point of talking to their son or daughter at length everyday, keeping up with their his/her school activities, who their friends are, and keeping in contact with the child's friends parents, is a parent that is on top of things, and when problems come up (all teenagers try to rebel in one way or another, that's just normal), but when any problems come up, the parent will know their child and the child's peers well enough to be able to nip the problem in the bud. But these parents who are too busy living their own lifes, or too stressed and tired to really bother being active in their kid's life, are just asking for a "troubled teen."
You should not have or adopt a child unless you are willing to make a life-long commitment to stay by that child's side no matter what it takes, and even if your child bores you with talk about their interests, friends, boyfriends, girlfriends, music, clothes, school, sports, whatever, you should still listen with an open ear and take note of everything your child tells you, and not just say "uh huh" and "okay" because kids pick up on that, and then they start to keep things to themselves, and that is how parents lose control of their children.
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You are so full of shit. I hope you never have kids, because you would be literally shocked to death at how your fairy tale version of the "right things to do" can turn out. Do you think these parents didn't do many of these things? It ain't that easy, moron.
Overlordd- I'm disappointed in your rant. You were beginning to make some friends over on the other site. All that will be destroyed now with your immature swearing and anger. Too bad I can't post it over there- but it is too ridiculous to be appropriate.
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On 2005-08-01 07:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are so full of shit. I hope you never have kids, because you would be literally shocked to death at how your fairy tale version of the "right things to do" can turn out. Do you think these parents didn't do many of these things? It ain't that easy, moron.
Overlordd- I'm disappointed in your rant. You were beginning to make some friends over on the other site. All that will be destroyed now with your immature swearing and anger. Too bad I can't post it over there- but it is too ridiculous to be appropriate. "
Wow, you're a nasty insulting little cunt, aren't you? Is this how you talked to your kid to make him nuts and "need" a program? It's clear to me that anyone forced to spend any amount time with a nasty bitch like you would want to get high or crash a car into a tree.
You call others full of shit and morons, but just look at yourself. Trolling a bb all hours of the day and night for the purpose of insulting and degrading some teenagers. What are you, some kind of "junior staffer" or something? Don't you have something better to do?
Maybe you should light up a joint, have a drink and get laid for a change. It might do you some good, Mrs. Robinson...
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On 2005-07-25 13:34:00, dougm wrote:
"I don't know how to really dispell the myths about Sagewalk being a "boot camp" and students being "tortured and abused" other than just describing how a typical day went for me. This is rather long so pop some popcorn or something...
Day starts off by counselors calling 5 minutes. This means that everyone has 5 minutes to be dressed, have their sleeping bags hung on a tree, grab their food bags, and be sitting around the firepit. If everyone does not have this done by 5 minutes, everything gets put back the way it was, then you do it again until every thing is completed in the 5 minute slot. After this, there is hygeine. This involves filling your cup with water and soap, taking your rag and washing your face, hands and feet. I believe 8 or 10 minutes was given for hygeine. You had to be checked off by a counselor. If not everyone was checked off by a counselor in the allotted time, everyone had to do it again, although it was fairly easy the second time around, since most everyone was already clean and didnt need to do additional scrubbing. Then came breakfast, usually 20 minute time limit. Breakfast consisted of usually cold oats, with water, powdered milk, and then if you rationed well, brown sugar and raisins. If a fire was going, campers had the option of heating their oats, although only a few did so (I preferred my oats cold). You were required to eat at least 2 cups of oats, and one quart of water, both checked off (one girl forgot to check off that she had drank her quart of water, was forced to drink another and promptly vomited next to me) After this, you needed to clean your cup, which involved taking making mud and scrubbing the inside of your cup with it and rinsing it out until it was spotless. If everyone did not have their food eaten and cups cleaned by time limit, then spices would not be available for later meals (you needed to make 3 time limits in a row in order to have spices). All food that was prepared is required to be eaten, regardless if you feel full or the food doesn't taste good. Some people vomited because of this, including myself after using too much spice on my rice and lentils. After this, usually came some sort of planned activity, gathering firewood, some sort of group therapy, or when we were moved to a site in the Orinoco (?) Forest, day-hiking (food and water only, no packs) up mountains and through forests and what not (probably the most fun activity there, incredibly beautiful) although we couldn't really do this at the high desert site and apparently, SW has moved back there where I spent my first 10 days or so. Gathering firewood was rather difficult in the high desert, since we were required by both SW and BLM policy to take only dead and down trees. Lunch was usually very light, just some granola and another quart of water. Very easy to make time limit, if there was one (sometimes we would stop hiking and sit and snack then continue). This meal wasn't required, but was only taken away if the group was misbehaving (never taken away if we were hiking or going to hike). Afternoon activities were performed, sometimes our "homework", coursework that focused on goals, aspirations, management skills, etc. not your typical math, science, english etc. or more firewood collecting, therapy, etc. Dinner was usually at sunset or so (preceeded by hygeine again), since we could not really do much after dark anyways. Dinner was rice and lentils except for Wednesday nights and Thursday nights. Wednesday night, we were given dehydrated refried beans and tortillas, made absolutely amazing (well, in comparison to the rice and lentils) burritos and Thursday nights was Macaroni night, which if you still had some cheese (most was used during burrito night) could make mac and cheese. Even without cheese, however, just regular macaroni was much better tasting than the rice and lentils. Since Rice and Lentils take at least 20 minutes to cook on the fire, time limit was either 40 minutes or 60 minutes depending on behavior (longer time limit for better behavior). While food was cooking, we were required to write a page in our journals. We also had a moment of silence (controversial, i think) and this was also the time when most of the group therapy occurred, when counselors encouraged the campers to express greivances, whether it be with SW, the counselors themselves, other students, or just problems in general. Usually, this either allowed for compromise and conflict resolution, or sometimes flared tempers (some girl I remember believed in Creationism, which I was fine with, but then she started ripping on evolution, which I was not cool with). Food was then eaten, then cups cleaned, food bags put away and we were dismissed to bed. Although we did not have any concept of time of there other than what day it was, I could guess that we received at least 11-12 hours of sleep a night (7-8pm till 7-8am).
Perhaps the least fun activity, and the one with the most controversy, would be the hiking. This involved taking down camp, with a time limit, packing up, then hiking upwards of 8 miles. Taking down camp involved dismantling the shelter, usually 2 or so tarps tied up to trees with rope. Filling in the firepit, filling in the latrine, then rock and sticking it. Filling up the "reds" (small water jugs). Spilling excessive water from the reds would require you to lift a full "red" above your head 25 times yelling at the top of your lungs "I will not spill the red, this is for my safety (rep number)". After the camp was taken down, next (still during time limit) was to pack our packs...usually involved rolling our gray mats (what we sit on around the campfire) and our tarps up, strapping to the back of the pack, then filling our packs with our sleeping bags, extra clothes and food bags. Packs usually weighed somewhere around 80 (supposively) pounds, depending on how full the food bag was. In addition, several were assigned to carry the full "reds" (probably between 10-20 lbs) in their hands, and someone with the empty whites and siphon hose. Hiking was what you made of it. I had undiagnosed diabetes, I weighed 115 (when I finally got diagnosed and started insulin, I spiked at just under 150 lbs, 35 lbs weight gain in about 3 months) and was chronically fatigued. My first hike, we need to scale a small rock face, basically about 100 ft of steps. I fell over a few times and threw up. I was reassured by my peers that this was normal, and the counselors would make us continue until we reached our destination, regardless of fatigue level. The counselors gave us a break after 1/2 mile after we finished the rock face climb. After I got some water in me, I felt much much better and we hiked another 5 miles or so, me only falling over once more due to a misstep. I was also taught early on in my program that the biggest key to hiking is packing your pack correctly, putting your heavy stuff on top and making sure the waist straps are above your hips. After this tip, hiking was fairly easy, with the only real problem being overall fatigue from high blood sugar (all food is high in carbs to provide energy, which was not good for me). After hiking, camp set-up, opposite of camp take-down with time-limit. If camp setup or takedown took longer than time limit, rules dictated that we were supposed to re-do it all over again (45 minutes worth of work) but many times, the counselors, if they saw genuine effort and hustle (or if problems out of camper control came to light) they were pretty lienent.
I'm positive I've forgotten many things, or certain details are incorrect, it has been 3 years since I attended. If you have any questions as to other stuff, feel free to post them here, or im usually on AIM/AOL at phawktard. Please, if you're going to contact me on AIM, don't abuse this. I'm more than willing to answer questions as long as they're not of rhetorical nature...leave your criticism here on the board.
Doug
"
Doug, I'm gathering that you thought the place was good for you?
Here's some things that concerned me about your stay at SW. Having a medical condition go undiagnosed, unbalanced nutrition, too much physical exertion, and the hygience practices.
I'm just curious if you had undergone a complete medical exam before entering and if you could expand on the hygiene. Were you able to take showers while there? I can't imagine menstrating as a female and not being able to shower in the morning. Sorry to get graphic here, but that is something that needs to be taken care of.
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"The point is this: There are too many cases of abuse and wrongful deaths that have occured at wilderness camps and teen treatment facilities."
I do not dispute this point. I don't make light of the abuse and I would never dream of mocking another's very real pain just to have something to laugh at.
However, you are making some very large assumptions about the parents who seek help for troubled, self-medicating, self-destructing, in many cases mentally ill children. And in my case, you are dead wrong about the kind of parent I was and am.
I suspect you have never parented a teen of any kind, struggling or not. With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about until you have walked a mile in my shoes.
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On 2005-07-26 01:20:00, dougm wrote:
"I was taken involuntarily in the middle of the night. I'm not sure as to how my parents were referred to SW. By the sounds of it, most other kids were either escourted against their will or they were duped into going. As for "abductors for hire" I was escourted by a family friend. Still have no idea why you believe the profit motive is the main reason behind this, do you know how much insurance these places require?"
No offense Doug, but I'm reading your posts and you really don't sound like you were that "bad" of kid. It just seems a little extreme that you were sent to this place.
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Guess what troll, I always do the right thing. There is no other way to be a good person or even a good parent. I will never sacrfice doing the right thing. I will never make a active choice to do something that is wrong. That mean I would never send my kid away. The right thing to do does not die, it gets harder, and you apparents failed to do it.
I do have friends at ST and I have friends here to, and one little rant is not going to break a friendship, if it does, they were never my friends to begin with.
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Let me know how that works out for you.
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Funny in a sort of horrible way like when I heard Charles Manson on some documentary---his interview conversation just sort of drifted from fairly normal into a psychotic rant over just a few minutes. Overall his use of language and his omission of nasty-speak was a step up from Overlordd though
Your "friends" over at ST: get a clue Overlordd---they think you're a joke over there too, it's called "humoring the crazy person"
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Is that it? Is that all you got? Comparing me to Charles Manson? I mean come on, debate with me, argue with me, respond to me, but comparing me to charles manson is so damned pointless its fucking insulting, not because you compaired him to me but you wasited my time to chastise you.
And doing the right this has always worked out well for me, thank you oh so much.
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See what I mean---he's great!!
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On 2005-07-29 21:03:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
On 2005-07-29 20:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I predict that within 6 months you will be sending your son to a program. You will not be able to manage him at home, and his drug use will greatly increase. Perhaps wilderness is not the right place due to his anxiety disorder, but there are very good reasons why the kids can only communicate by letter. The family dynamics are usually a big part of the underlying problem, and need to be removed from the equation before progress can be made."
What a crock! The whole point of NOT removing a kid from the family is because the family dynamics are part of the problem; AND MUST BE ADDRESSED. Family therapy is the best way to address these issues. Removing a kid, changing him, then dumping him back into the dysfunctional family solves nothing. Rehab specialists have known that since the 1960s.
What is the deal with allowing dysfunctional and perhaps abusive parents the priviledge of blaming everything on the teen and sending him/her away to be fixed, while they sit at home smug and guilt free thinking they 'did the right thing?'
The real reason for cutting ties with the parents is to deny the teen the support system. He is easier to break if his parents are not there to protect him. It is easier to manipulate the parents if the program can screen the letters and do damage control by calling the parents and misinforming them that their child is just lying and manipulating. The child cries for help and the program tells the parents not to interfere or they will mess up the kid's progress. Say what you like, but it is the perfect set up for abuse. It is a pedophile's (or sadist's) dream come true.
"
Makes me think about the place I was in and when we "earned" the right to talk to our parents it was only for 5 minutes and we could only apologize for a specific incident in the past. We could not communicate about anything else and our parents were told to tell on us if we did and we were told to tell on them if they went off the path. I don't see how such controlled dialouge was helpful to either one of us.
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On 2005-08-01 07:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are so full of shit. I hope you never have kids, because you would be literally shocked to death at how your fairy tale version of the "right things to do" can turn out. Do you think these parents didn't do many of these things? It ain't that easy, moron.
Overlordd- I'm disappointed in your rant. You were beginning to make some friends over on the other site. All that will be destroyed now with your immature swearing and anger. Too bad I can't post it over there- but it is too ridiculous to be appropriate."
You know, Overlord, I can't say I have been too happy with a lot of your posts about ST people being okay. But if you are capable of pissing of some program parent THIS much-- you are okay in my book! :wave:
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"It's pretty obvious we only have ONE program troll over here."
Guess again, junior.
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On 2005-08-01 10:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
""It's pretty obvious we only have ONE program troll over here."
Guess again, junior."
OH Good, another friend! :wave:
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(http://http://www.child-abuse.org/want2.gif)
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On 2005-08-01 10:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
""It's pretty obvious we only have ONE program troll over here."
Guess again, junior."
Hey and at least we know you fucks read our responses.. I can't say I do more than scim your long rantings.. but thanks for the laughs anyways. I'll see you over at ST.
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This thread was going very nicely until a Struggling Parent threw a verbal molotov cocktails into the discussion:
Parents- you would be better off getting advice from http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) than from here. This site is a militaristic group of disgruntled teens and young adults (with a few disgruntled adults thrown in who can't get past their teens) and the advice is not reliable.
Parents- if you have questions on specific programs, post on strugglingteens and you will get honest and thorough responses- from people who actually can construct a sentence.
Followed by:
I agree that there are exceptions, but your ignorance and anger are clouding what is left of your brain.
You are a moron.
OK- I get it. You weren't ever in therapy. It's all clear now. You need to be!
H E L L O, idiots! We did EVERYTHING possible.
That would not---in my books at least---include you---somebody who lost control of her own kids to "others" and who now fights a futileamd ego-driven battle to prove that those "others" made a wrong choice---you are the last person to whom I would come for guidance in raising my kids.
You are so full of shit. It ain't that easy, moron.
Funny in a sort of horrible way like when I heard Charles Manson on some documentary---his interview conversation just sort of drifted from fairly normal into a psychotic rant over just a few minutes. Overall his use of language and his omission of nasty-speak was a step up from Overlordd though
Your "friends" over at ST: get a clue Overlordd---they think you're a joke over there too, it's called "humoring the crazy person"
****
Disrespect is disresepct. If you trolls from ST think that your expressions of disrespect are any less disrespectful than the comments that have been made to you, then you are sadly mistaken. It?s precisely this double standard that drives some kids as far away from their folks as they can get. Perhaps you?ll learn more about that if you stick around, cause I for one will point it out at every opportunity. Get off your high horse and interact or go back to ST where you can pretend to be perfect and that all would be perfect, if your kid would just submit to your irrational fears and attempts to control... oh yes, and your double standards.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-01 12:23 ]
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Has anyone from ST posted your stories over there just to poke fun at your pain? Didn't think so. There's your double standard.
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On 2005-08-01 12:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Has anyone from ST posted your stories over there just to poke fun at your pain? Didn't think so. There's your double standard."
And don't think we will stop. I love laughing at you pathetic parents who can't raise a kid. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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yeah actually some one did post what I said here over there, and guess what. I stood up for what I said. YOu should do the same
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On 2005-08-01 07:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are so full of shit. I hope you never have kids, because you would be literally shocked to death at how your fairy tale version of the "right things to do" can turn out. Do you think these parents didn't do many of these things? It ain't that easy, moron.
Overlordd- I'm disappointed in your rant. You were beginning to make some friends over on the other site. All that will be destroyed now with your immature swearing and anger. Too bad I can't post it over there- but it is too ridiculous to be appropriate. "
I don't see how saying that a parent should listen to their kids and get to know the kid's friends and his parents is in any way "fairy tale," but I guess when you have a parent who calls a complete stranger on the internet "a moron" and saying "you are so full of shit" you are really dealing with an immature adult.
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To this ST troll, you live in fairy tail land if you DONT send your kid to a program. Koo Koo :silly:
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O Lordy, perhaps you didn't read what I said. I didn't say has anyone posted anything ever from this site onto ST, because there are a number of instances where you proclaimed your particular bias and agenda and that information was posted at ST.
I said has anyone ever posted honest to goodness stories of abuse from here onto ST just so the 'ST parents' could all laugh at your pain. No. That would be wrong. I'm just asking here for the same respect.
You might notice that no one from ST has ever said your stories aren't true. They may well be, and if they are it's a shame. The point is that there is effective care out there for self-destructive children (as there is for self-destructive adults), for children and adults with demonstrated clinical mental health needs. I'm bewildered that you believe that legitimate therapy is automatically abuse.
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This has become just a bunch of name calling. No one can judge someone's parenting ability from a few posts OR by the fact that they sent a kid to an emotional growth program. You seem to think you have all the answers, when, in fact, you are operating from one sole, erroneous premise- no teen should be sent to a program. It happens that my teen is doing quite well since he left his program and would never waste his time on a board like this. This has become annoying and pointless- sort of like playing a tennis match with a blind person.
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If you don't want to be here, leave. It's pretty simple.
You get no pity of misunderstanding from me. If you wish to be more clear, explain yourself better instead of :cry: about it.
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Look back over these threads since Brat Camp went on the air---growing numbers of parents posting here---spelling out how it makes no sense to let kids run amok---disputing the party line here that all programs are evil.
Meanwhile---like people rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic----the site regulars try to convince themselves that all these new posts are coming from one anonymous troll associated with ST. Too funny!
Brat Camp is the vehicle that's going to bring these programs mainstream folks---cry about it all you want---your complaints are about to get caught in a popular wave that will reduce the impact of your whining complaints even further
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May be, May be not:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=37&8 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11035&forum=37&8)
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Yeah but---see Deb--most people have never heard of the Child Welfare League or whatever it's called---just one more bureaucratic complaint group I bet.
And a good percentage of those who've heard of it don't care about their bureaucratic opinions---and will opt for making their own determinations as parents about what to do with their children. Groups like this have lost credibility because they have bitched and moaned too much about little things and they never seem to back up parental discipline---they're obsolete
You don't get it---but I imagine with time you'll catch on--then you'll really have something to whine about!
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On 2005-08-01 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You don't get it---but I imagine with time you'll catch on--then you'll really have something to whine about!"
And what exactly are you whining about.. whining about other people whining? LMAO get a life.
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On 2005-08-01 13:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look back over these threads since Brat Camp went on the air---growing numbers of parents posting here---spelling out how it makes no sense to let kids run amok---disputing the party line here that all programs are evil."
There hasn't been any change at all, expect this forum has a lot more use now. Sure, there are a couple parents that come by here, and we all know where they are from.
It's wonderful how you state these things in a forum with THOUSANDS of posts telling you exactly the opposite, and a hanful which agree with you.
Who is delusional here? YOU!
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I have been watching Brat Camp for a few weeks now and found this forum after searching.
Our teenager also talks back to us, doesn't finish all his homework on time, and has started wearing dark clothing. We are worried he might start ditching school, hanging out with the wrong kids, start smoking pot and eventually lead himself down the path to suicide, drugs, death and jail.
Thanks to ABC for a show like Brat Camp. I had no idea you could send your kid off like that, to another state to be punished. I am a single mother who has a very hard time disciplining my child. I like the idea of having professionals handling this for me.
I would like more information on programs please. But I think Brat Camp is too easy and too short for my child. I want it to last several years, and I'd rather have him away from girls and temptations.
Has anyone here sent their own child away?
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::troll::
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On 2005-07-25 13:34:00, dougm wrote:
My first hike, we need to scale a small rock face, basically about 100 ft of steps. I fell over a few times and threw up. I was reassured by my peers that this was normal, and the counselors would make us continue until we reached our destination, regardless of fatigue level.
Well, let me assure you that falling over and puking is NOT normal! It's a sign of possibly serious illness or injury. Doug, the only difference between you and some of the kids who didn't make it is LUCK! These dumb bastards have repeatedly marched kids to death, insisting that they were just faking to get out. I understand you were there voluntarily, right? And how many days did it take to convince them that you weren't faking? They serve so that we don't have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is, remarkably, their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?
Michael More
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What were you thinking, Dou---did you really think that you were the best authority on your own experience and what it meant to you?
Don't you realize that you have to clear your interpretations about your life with all-knowing people at this forum.
You may BELIEVE that your program helped you---but only truly objective and rational types, with no ax to grind---like maybe Antigen or Deborah---can really tell you what your program was about and what effects it actually had on you
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Where's Devlin been through all this? Did he exhaust his reportoire of 3 words?
Good post below- of course none of us are qualified to know anything about parenting and none of the teens can possibly be right if they think they needed the program to which they were sent.
While falling over and throwing up isn't ideal, it sounds very similar to many athletic events in which many of us participate! I have seen a lot of pride on the faces of young people coming out of wilderness programs. In many ways, they have accomplished things they have never had an opportunity to accomplish before. Being pushed and stretched- by TRAINED staff- is not a bad thing.
But-what do I know? We all should defer to the Gods of Fornitcation or whatever this pathetic site is.
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On 2005-08-01 16:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We all should defer to the Gods of Fornitcation"
YES! :roll:
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Oh boy, that last post was a great example of insightfulness and biting humor combined(the emotocons add a nice touch for those who have a hard time with both ideas and words).
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***You might notice that no one from ST has ever said your stories aren't true.
What I notice, is that yes, in this very thread they have:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 190#120038 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=190#120038)
Parents- you would be better off getting advice from http://www.strugglingteens.com (http://www.strugglingteens.com) than from here. This site is a militaristic group of disgruntled teens and young adults (with a few disgruntled adults thrown in who can't get past their teens) and the advice is not reliable.
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"advice is not reliable" does not equate to "stories are not true". Deborah, you've killed whatever brain cells you might have once had.
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I've looked at her posts, folks and there is absolutely no proof that Deborah ever had any brain cells!
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On 2005-08-01 16:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh boy, that last post was a great example of insightfulness and biting humor combined(the emotocons add a nice touch for those who have a hard time with both ideas and words)."
Aren't you snide.. I feel bad for your child and family, I really do. This game will be more fun once we have identified who you are. Have you posted on struggling teens before? If you have, the publically post IP addresses attached to each of your posts. You didn't actually think it was that hard for me to obtain your IP here, did you? :rofl:
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Look, just stop feeding the ST trolls, apprently they just insult people. They dont really debate anything. Apprently the admins and Lon can't teach the parents humanity or common sence, so just don't worry about it any more. These people are behaving worse than their children, and really really need to learn how to discuss, because they cant do it here, and very few of them can do it on ST.
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They are just documenting the behavior of a typical program parent. Let them, for all the world to see what horrible people they are. I for one enjoy it very much. They just continue to prove us all right.
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That's right, compare forced marches and limited calories to sporting events.
I played a number of sports, very physical sports, as did my kids and now my grandson. Soccer, double-headers, football, in 100^ weather and I don't recall one instance of a kid falling over and puking.
Speaking strictly for myself, there may be some useful things taught, like the bow drill exercise which I particularly liked, but... the point is that the means don't justify the ends. It is not rational or reasonable to put kids in harm's way for the few useful things they might learn in the process.
If it's emotional breakdowns/throughs you're looking for, I get the feeling that could'be been accomplished at home if the parents had required them to take out the trash or make any other reasonable contribution to the household.
Perhaps the best that could come from this series is that some parents wake up and realize that they are contributing to the disability of their minor.
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Not to mention how stupid they look. Every post ends with a bash on fornits. Then they come back for more. :lol:
How long until they post again.... 3..2...1
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Come on. We know you CANT resist. :rofl:
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On 2005-08-01 07:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are so full of shit. I hope you never have kids, because you would be literally shocked to death at how your fairy tale version of the "right things to do" can turn out. Do you think these parents didn't do many of these things? It ain't that easy, moron.
Overlordd- I'm disappointed in your rant. You were beginning to make some friends over on the other site. All that will be destroyed now with your immature swearing and anger. Too bad I can't post it over there- but it is too ridiculous to be appropriate. "
Actually he was expressing some raw emotions. Until we allow kids like him to express themselves there will be no helpful dialouge. get past the swearing and see that he feels attacked. He's a kid for crying out loud.
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But Webcrawler,
Emotions are simply not allowed outside the confines of a prison, woops..program. They have zero tolerance for anger, in others that is. It's scarey. One of the reasons they send their kids away. They don't have to hear it. Then they sit around in their 'Let's all be nice', heavily monitored support group and pretend that they're all beyond anger.
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I have a question for all you Fornitscators.
When IS it acceptable parenting to send a kid away? Is a normal college prep boarding school OK if the kid wants to go there? What about an 8 weeks summer program (music, camp, sports whatever)? What if the kid has a serious addiction? Is in-patient treatment like Betty Ford or Hazelden OK?
Or- are all these examples of letting someone else parent your kid? When you send a kid to a boarding school to give him or her a superior educational opportunity, you are turning over a lot of the responsibility for your child to the faculty and staff in charge. Is this a bad thing? So-if you know that your kid has a serious emotional problem, why are you a bad parent for putting him or her in an emotional growth program where intense therapy is offered?
I don't get where the line in drawn.
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Deborah, you brilliant psychologist you- anger is driven by some other emotion. It isn't a matter of not "tolerating" anger. It is a matter of getting at the root cause of that anger- whether it be fear, hurt, frustration..... Usually this requires quite a bit of therapy and a willingness to dig deep inside. These programs seem to cultivate that willingness to dig- peer pressure helps with this. No, it isn't always pretty, but it is necessary to wade through some pain to get to the other side.
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Because family problems and issues stemming from them should be addressed as a family.
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"Because family problems and issues stemming from them should be addressed as a family."
And that is an answer to WHAT???
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On 2005-08-01 17:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah, you brilliant psychologist you- anger is driven by some other emotion. It isn't a matter of not "tolerating" anger. It is a matter of getting at the root cause of that anger- whether it be fear, hurt, frustration..... Usually this requires quite a bit of therapy and a willingness to dig deep inside. These programs seem to cultivate that willingness to dig- peer pressure helps with this. No, it isn't always pretty, but it is necessary to wade through some pain to get to the other side."
This is very dangerous....anger is not always covering up something else. Sometimes it is healthy anger, such as when someone is hurting you. Anger is what lets you know your boundaries have been violated. It doesn't mean you are really hiding your sadness. There are two types, adaptive and maladaptive anger, just like with most emotions. Sadness can be used to hide things too. Ever hear of depression?? If just facing the underlying issues was going to help there would be no such thing.
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On 2005-08-01 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have a question for all you Fornitscators.
When IS it acceptable parenting to send a kid away? Is a normal college prep boarding school OK if the kid wants to go there? What about an 8 weeks summer program (music, camp, sports whatever)? What if the kid has a serious addiction? Is in-patient treatment like Betty Ford or Hazelden OK?
Or- are all these examples of letting someone else parent your kid? When you send a kid to a boarding school to give him or her a superior educational opportunity, you are turning over a lot of the responsibility for your child to the faculty and staff in charge. Is this a bad thing? So-if you know that your kid has a serious emotional problem, why are you a bad parent for putting him or her in an emotional growth program where intense therapy is offered?
I don't get where the line in drawn."
Because family problems and issues stemming from them should be addressed as a family.
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So now you want a serious debate? :lol:
just a taste of what I'm sure the posters who have more patience will point at... the abusive programs discussed here, I went to a wwasp program:
They don't allow contact with anyone but your parents ONLY through approved/censored letters.
Absolutely no phone calls. Usually a five minute call when reaching the upper echelons of the program.
No access to emergency phone, or contact whatsoever, held completely incommunicado.
No access to psychiatric patient advocate officials.
Being in jail with no charges! plus no judge, no lawyers, no nothing. You run and they drag you back.
Isolation as punishment, usually for days at a time. sometimes weeks. terrible and non nutritious food. no showers in isolation.
Lifespring style seminars.
The whole freaking philosophy of 'behavior modification.'
Do you think physical abuse does not happen? 20 teenage boys in ONE ROOM for years and you think bad things don't go down EVERY single day in there? Programs don't make your kid safer, I can't believe you think this. You put them in a much more vulnerable position, both from other students and staff. I still can't believe parents with the young kids, I'm talking 14, 15 send their kids. They end up living with 17 year olds who are pissed off and angry. What a great environment for your young son with problems, I'm sure it will help him. And don't think my experience is one in a million, it is typical of all these programs. I've been to several.
Can't you see the difference between a summer camp and an abusive program, COME ON!? Have you been inside a children's psychiatric ward? The parents have 24 hour access, not to mention the phones on the wall which call a patient advocate group. There is absolutely NO COMPARISON. The fact you made the comparison is scary, it really is. I have been through good facilities, and I have been through PROVO and WWASP. There IS NO COMPARISON.
YES there are helpful treatment centers out there. No they are not programs like the ones sold on struggling teens.
I dont even know why I bother taking the time to post this, it's not like you care anyways.
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Not to mention, NO TREATMENT. I went for drug problems, and we never even talked about drug use. These programs are JAILS, that do nothing to help children accept scaring them into submission. They will not 'forget' their old behaviors as so many parents seem to think.
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On 2005-08-01 18:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
I dont even know why I bother taking the time to post this, it's not like you care anyways.
Just remember that the person to who's words you're responding is not the only one reading. Keep on keepin' on!
Anon, to answer your question, I'm all for extreme sports and adventure for anyone who voluntarily engages in them!
The difference between forced treatment and voluntary counceling of any kind is exactly the same as the difference between rape and romance.
I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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I have several friends who went to traditional boarding schools. They hated it. Why? Because they didn?t want to go. Their wealthy parents sent them to free up time for their own personal pursuits. Most definitely a case of letting someone else raise your kid.
If the kid WANTS to go, then they are probably developmentally ready for such a journey away from family, or despise their family so much they see it as a great escape.
I?m personally not big on summer camps. Another ?break from the kids?- 8, 9 weeks with them is just too much. Why not take your kids on a camping trip? I heard of a summer camp recently that is designed for the whole family. What a novel idea!!!
Where I draw the line- they aren?t FORCED for the convenience and/or comfort of their parents.
They aren?t forced, and they aren?t isolated from family and subjected to controversial bm techniques. They certainly get all the food they want to eat and spend most of their day laughing instead of crying and trying to avoid another irrational punishment.
I personally think Betty Ford and Hazeldon are a waste of money.
My son went to one of the most ?prestigious? TBSs in the industry. Their ?therapy? was a mockery and unlike anything I had experienced or studied. I have friends with PhDs that were seriously concerned about this so-called therapy. He returned home 5 credits behind his peers, and a/b student prior. A gifted athlete, he stopped playing sports all together. He also lost his competive nature. He used to love to play games. No longer. He did learn how to lie very well, and keep a smile on his face and how to avoid pushing his dad?s buttons. They have a very superficial relationship which suits dad just fine. My son didn?t receive therapy; he was conditioned with behavior modification to become and ?island? unto himself. To believe that others weren?t interested in his thoughts and feelings. To keep those thoughts and feelings to himself. That is not emotional growth and not what I would choose for my son.
I think parents and their kids would be much better off hiring a temporary, live-in parenting coach, good therapits or nanny or wise old grandma.
There is absolutely nothing these 'magical' programs do that a parent couldn't do themselves, if they desired to do it. And far better options for those who put a few personal persuits aside and think about what their kid needs.
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***Deborah, you brilliant psychologist you- anger is driven by some other emotion. It isn't a matter of not "tolerating" anger. It is a matter of getting at the root cause of that anger- whether it be fear, hurt, frustration..... Usually this requires quite a bit of therapy and a willingness to dig deep inside. These programs seem to cultivate that willingness to dig- peer pressure helps with this. No, it isn't always pretty, but it is necessary to wade through some pain to get to the other side.***
And what is your degree in? It was a matter of not tolerating OL's anger.
One of you said:
You were beginning to make some friends over on the other site. All that will be destroyed now with your immature swearing and anger. Too bad I can't post it over there- but it is too ridiculous to be appropriate.
I don't find that 'tolerant'. It sound about like how the kids are taught 'emotional growth' in a program.
What do you imagine was driving OL's anger- that was going to cost him friends over at ST?
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Deborah- you are a master at twisting words and sticking to your one-track agenda. You really must be super-parent, because according to you, there is an entire industry that is completely unneccessary. Do you think parents WANT to send their kids away and spend $60K a year? Do you think it is something parents take pride in doing? The reason the kids are sent to EG programs is because the parents can no longer help the kids. The part you still don't get is that the parents have tried everything.
I agree that there are some bad programs and there have been some abuses. There are also excellent programs which have helped many kids.
Your personal frustration and control issues are coming through loud and clear, and I'm sorry you didn't agree with the placement of your kid.
My own kid came out of his program more committed to his academics and extra-curricular activities than ever.
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If you want to provide some examples in which I 'twisted' your words, I'll certainly consider that.
Otherwise, I percieve your comment to be another avoidance of discussing the issue at hand. The isolation of one family member and their Forced 'treatment' under the guise of 'therapy' and 'emotional growth'.
Does your agenda have more than one track?
Studies indicating that EG warehouses may not be as effective as keeping the family together:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 180#102197 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9227&forum=9&start=180#102197)
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-01 19:47 ]
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***Yeah but---see Deb--most people have never heard of the Child Welfare League or whatever it's called---just one more bureaucratic complaint group I bet.***
They may not have, but I'm sure they've heard of the GAO.
And perhaps they've heard of the Office of Inspector General. Their 2000 report, may be of interest, which clearly indicates a lack of state oversight of RTCs, forget the 'unlicensed' programs. They have no oversight at all.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#84989 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8487&forum=9&start=0#84989)
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On 2005-08-01 19:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My own kid came out of his program more committed to his academics and extra-curricular activities than ever."
Honestly then, why are you here? I don't mean this in a joking manner, I am completely serious.
Deborah, Antigen, all the people who went to programs, I understand their own personal motives as to why they come here and post-- and it makes sense to me.
I guess I am wondering, if you had such a wonderful experience, and so did your son, what is your purpose in continuing to immerse yourself in these message boards? How are you involved in these schools now? Do you refer other kids to programs now?
You keep saying there are good programs out there, well, which ones exactly do you think are good then?
One more question-- what program exactly did you send your kid to, the program you claim is so succesful?
Thank you for answering, I'm just trying to understand your reasoning and motives I guess.
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On 2005-08-01 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have a question for all you Fornitscators.
When IS it acceptable parenting to send a kid away? Is a normal college prep boarding school OK if the kid wants to go there? What about an 8 weeks summer program (music, camp, sports whatever)? What if the kid has a serious addiction? Is in-patient treatment like Betty Ford or Hazelden OK?
Or- are all these examples of letting someone else parent your kid? When you send a kid to a boarding school to give him or her a superior educational opportunity, you are turning over a lot of the responsibility for your child to the faculty and staff in charge. Is this a bad thing? So-if you know that your kid has a serious emotional problem, why are you a bad parent for putting him or her in an emotional growth program where intense therapy is offered?
I don't get where the line in drawn."
I would draw the line at any program that monitors or limits my communication with my children or them with me. Period. Ain't gonna happen. I'm the parent no matter where my child is and therefore I am in charge of his welfare and treatment, not a program. I must be fully involved in all decisions regarding my child or the program is not acceptable. If my child is punished for any reason whatsoever I want an immediate phone call and explanation and I want it from both the staff and my child. I want to know what my child did wrong and what the punishment is to be. I get this treatment from my son's free public school every day. I expect no less from an expensive private one.[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2005-08-01 22:06 ]
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On 2005-08-01 19:07:00, Deborah wrote:
There is absolutely nothing these 'magical' programs do that a parent couldn't do themselves, if they desired to do it.
Yes there is. If a parent treated their child at home in the same way these programs do, Family Services would intervene and remove the child. The parent would be arrested.
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On 2005-08-01 19:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Deborah- you are a master at twisting words and sticking to your one-track agenda. You really must be super-parent, because according to you, there is an entire industry that is completely unneccessary.
Like the pornography industry, for example? Or the video game industry?
The EG industry wasn't needed until it was invented.
Do you think parents WANT to send their kids away and spend $60K a year?
It was your choice, therefore you wanted to. You could have just thrown the kid out. My Father threw my sister out when she was 15 and pregnant. She has been on her own ever since. She now holds a PHD. It saved him tons of money. She did not end up dead or in jail despite the drugs, alcohol, and sex. She had been sober and in AA for years. She did it all on her own.
Do you think it is something parents take pride in doing? The reason the kids are sent to EG programs is because the parents can no longer help the kids.
Yes, sometimes the parent can no longer help. Then, it is up to the child. Ask my Dad.
What is with this 'emotional growth' program term? I thought these were 'behavior modification' progams, or has that term become too strong or negative? I despise the newspeak.
'remove the child from negative influences' means lock them up in an isolated place.
'take them out of their comfort zone' means treat them harshly until they have a strong emotional reaction - and break down or become violent. (thus proving they need help)
'provide them with the opportunity to make better decsions' means force them to obey the rules, or else.
Why not just say, 'We will isolate your child from you and the rest of the world. We will deprive them of the creature comforts they are used to. We will exhaust them with physical activity. We will not allow them to complain. We will enforce strict rules over the smallest details of their lives. This will make them less resistant to change. Then we will force them to confess everything they have done and tell them how wrong they were to do these things. Then we will dictate terms that they must meet in order to ever leave the program. Any resistance will result in harsh punishment and a longer stay. Only when they have convinced us that they will adhere to the dictated terms, will we allow them to return to you. We decide when this takes place; not the child, not the parent (unless the parent stops paying)."
You sent your kid away for this? Anyone can do this; if they are mean enough.
This is what you have agreed to. A fool and his money is soon parted. You deserve the financial drain. I feel for the children.
PS: I am a parent. I'm not a disgruntled parent. I have never had a child in a 'program.' I have never been in a 'program.' I am merely a TV viewer of Brat Camp that found the entire idea thoroughly disgusting.
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Dear Atomic: Lucky you, who never had a child spinning out of control. I wish I had your innocence. I also wish I had the tens of thousands I spent on therapy for my out of control child that insurance never covered. Wish I didn't have that pesky second mortgage that supports education for all my children. Can you agree that it's entirely possible that my child had problems, possibly genetically based, that your child does not?
Believe it or not, I agree with you that some parts of Brat Camp are stupid, starting with the name. Then again, some parts of Survivor and Dancing with the Stars were stupid too. It's called reality television.
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This question was addressed to another parent who talked about how a program had been very helpful to a child in a number of ways.
Well, I don't know about that parents' reasons for posting here but they may be similar to my own---you never know
I see this site as only telling a very slanted side of the story in terms of wilderness programs and therapeutic boarding schools.
If those of us who have a more positive view on the subject let some of the things said here go unchallenged---what might parents looking for a program/school think if they happen to stumble into this site in their search?
The answer of course is that hey might end up believing with question a lot of broad black and white assertions---on the other hand, if they hear another point of view--such as the point of view of a family in which a child was greatly helped by this kind of intervention-- they can then decide for themselves which seems more credible---and more suitable for their own children
If you want to have a site that only lets approved people post that can be done by having compulsory screened membership: but until them I don't know why you would expect only people with approved points of view to post here
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A statement like that last one is helpful too in sizing up the credibility of the poster---I sure wouldn't take advice from anyone who would say---even if it's only said for dramatic effect----that it's better to take a kid out back and shoot him in the head than to put him in a therapeutic program
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If you dont like a post like Three Springs Waygookin just posted well then I guess you dont like great authors in history that used sarcasm, over the top statments, irony, or other such literary tools to make a point. To bad, you missed some great writing in the form of Kurt Vonnegut and others. Remember, a persons statements sometimes could be alittle deeper than face value.
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No, you're wrong Overlordd, because Three Springs Waygookin is not a great author in history. He/she/it is an angry poster with a lot of unresolved hate for parents of kids in trouble, and the posting was offensive.
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Why does everyone think that any therapeutic program is automatically abusive and run by WWASP? Some are; imagine a world where some aren't!
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Hey three springs, I'm sorry if I missed it some where, but how exactly did you become involved in fornits? I gather your staff some where, but where did you work? I'm sorry if this is coming late, but I never read your history, do you mind giving me a quick summary?
P.S. Three Springs does not have to be a great author, its a literary tool any one can use it. You know, like those bullshit useless tools your kid gets cramed into him or her.[ This Message was edited by: OverLordd on 2005-08-02 07:36 ]
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On 2005-08-02 07:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"A statement like that last one is helpful too in sizing up the credibility of the poster---I sure wouldn't take advice from anyone who would say---even if it's only said for dramatic effect----that it's better to take a kid out back and shoot him in the head than to put him in a therapeutic program"
Darlin, you don't understand what goes on in these places. It's nothing like how the family rep describes it. They'll say much worse to the kid while withholding food, sleep, outside communication and all comfort. This? This is just words on a screen directed toward (alleged) adults who can click away or walk away at any moment.
It just never ceases to amaze me how you folks can dish it out but ya' can't take it.Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth.
--Mohandas K. Gandhi
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On 2005-08-02 06:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
I see this site as only telling a very slanted side of the story in terms of wilderness programs and therapeutic boarding schools.
If those of us who have a more positive view on the subject let some of the things said here go unchallenged---what might parents looking for a program/school think if they happen to stumble into this site in their search?
The answer of course is that hey might end up believing with question a lot of broad black and white assertions---on the other hand, if they hear another point of view--such as the point of view of a family in which a child was greatly helped by this kind of intervention-- they can then decide for themselves which seems more credible---and more suitable for their own children
If you want to have a site that only lets approved people post that can be done by having compulsory screened membership: but until them I don't know why you would expect only people with approved points of view to post here.
That's so convoluted. Nothing goes unchallenged around here. You post here. I haven't made any attempt to discourage you or censor you. That's the opposite of a slanted representation.
People who come here looking for info get all sides of the story. Are you afraid yours can't stand on it's own?
By 1940 the literacy figure for all states stood at 96 percent for whites. Eighty percent for blacks. Notice for all the disadvantages blacks labored under, four of five were still literate. Six decades later, at the end of the 20th century, the National Adult Literacy Survey and the National Assessment of Educational Progress say 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. Put another way, black illiteracy doubled, white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much real money on schooling as we did 60 years ago.
--Vin Suprynowicz
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No one is saying abuses didn't/don't happen. Why condemn parents who didn't abuse their child but instead sent them child to an effective, compassionate, ethical facility for demonstrated clinical mental health needs? Why is it so hard to imagine that such places exist?
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On 2005-07-31 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"God- why didn't I think of THAT? Damn. I should have ASKED my teen why he did the things he did! Yeah, I just gave up when things got "a little rough"- when he was in the ER after yet another overturned car. H E L L O, idiots! We did EVERYTHING possible. "
So, you're saying that you didn't even ask your kid why he was acting out? You claim you did (exclamatory) EVERYTHING possible, but then admit you put not a scintilla of effort into problem-solving? :roll:
And you call other people stupid? Geez, lady, get a grip already...Maybe you should check yourself into a wilderness program because you are wildly out of touch with reality.
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On 2005-08-02 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No one is saying abuses didn't/don't happen. Why condemn parents who didn't abuse their child but instead sent them child to an effective, compassionate, ethical facility for demonstrated clinical mental health needs? Why is it so hard to imagine that such places exist? "
Can you NAME one? People have been asking you repeatedly to provide the nameS of the programS you sent your kidS to, but you just keep saying how great they were and don't name them.
Why not get some free advertising here for your great and effective programs? Exactly WHICH PROGRAMS did you enroll your kids at?
Please don't deflect or ignore the important question being raised. As a programmie, I know you've been trained to deny, divert, digress, distract, deflect and avoid probative questioning at all costs (even your credibility), but please try to answer at least this one simple question: WHICH PROGRAMS DID YOU SEND YOUR KIDS TO?
Thanks!
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I don't care to name the programs my son attended. I have provided this information privately to posters on the strugglingteens site. I wish to remain anonymous on this site because I have been the target of hateful emails in the past. I also wish to protect the identity of my son.
I will say that I know of at least 6 wilderness programs where there have been no reports of any abuse and both parents and teens felt the programs were life-changing and worth every penny and day spent. Do you think the program in Shouting at the Sky is abusive? I have friends who have placed kids at Cascade in the past (before it went downhill) with great results for the teen and the family. The schools which sprung from Cascade, such as Carlbrook, have been praised by kids and family alike-even on THIS BOARD. I haven't heard anything about abuses at Oakley or Swift River, either.
Why am I here? I didn't even know about this site until Overlordd invaded our board. Having discovered it and how ugly the posters here are in responding to copied posts from the strugglingteens board, I felt that I should respond. When I see false things, I feel as though I should set the record straight for future parents who are doing research. I want to help other families who are facing a similar crisis to what mine faced.
As far as kicking my son out of the house- it was tempting. However, I saw too much potential in him. I chose to send him to a wilderness program and a TBS. I was not always a very good parent. Probably the best thing I have ever done for him was send him to wilderness. It was life-changing for him and for our family.
The problem with many of you regulars on this board is that you won't accept that many of these programs WORK and that what we are reporting is TRUE. That is a display of your immaturity and inability to dig out of your trench.
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On 2005-08-02 04:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Dear Atomic: Lucky you, who never had a child spinning out of control. I wish I had your innocence. I also wish I had the tens of thousands I spent on therapy for my out of control child that insurance never covered. Wish I didn't have that pesky second mortgage that supports education for all my children. Can you agree that it's entirely possible that my child had problems, possibly genetically based, that your child does not?
Believe it or not, I agree with you that some parts of Brat Camp are stupid, starting with the name. Then again, some parts of Survivor and Dancing with the Stars were stupid too. It's called reality television. "
I never said I did not have a child 'spinning out of control.' In fact, I have had one. My son was expelled from no less than 12 daycare providers before he even entered first grade! He was very violent. Nurture vs nature? I don't know.
I worked with my son. There were sleepless nights and truckloads of frustration. I felt helpless in that everything we tried did not seem to work. I had a CST (child study team) evaluate him. Over the years, several thereapists were involved. He attended two different kindergardens. In the second, he was placed in an inclusion class despite his high IQ.
We placed him a private school for first grade. That school conducted a second CST. He qualified for state assistance and a woman was assigned to work with him twice each week.
His behavior was so out of control that my ex-wife resorted to handcuffing him to the chair for 'time-outs.' He told his teacher. Family Services became involved. Handcuffing kids is child abuse, you know.
My son was placed with me. I stopped ALL forms of punishment and decided to try only redirection and positive reinforcement. I told my son that there would be no more penalties or punishments. Everyone (ex-wife, teachers, therapists) thought I was crazy...
My son passed second grade with all As and Bs on his report card. There was not a single reported incident in second grade. He is not perfect and will continue to have state assistance next year, but he has improved dramatically. He is now popular and has lots of friends. His self-esteem has improved immensely. He is enjoying summer day camp. He is living with his Mom during the week and spends every weekend with me.
So, I do understand what parents go through.
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On 2005-08-02 06:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If those of us who have a more positive view on the subject let some of the things said here go unchallenged---what might parents looking for a program/school think if they happen to stumble into this site in their search?"
Replace 'positive experience' with 'life traumatizing hell-like experience' and you get an idea what some of us went through.
what might parents looking for a program/school think if they happen to stumble onto the THOUSANDS of websites owned by programs, the websites that are MUCH MORE LIKELY to pop up when a parent searches.
Fornits is THE ONLY FORUM!!! that lets us tell our program experience as it actually was. Can I do this at ST? NO! They will delete it, and won't even publish the program name, so how is this helpful to parents?
Or do you think ONLY telling the parents positive exeriences is helpful? You are such a hypocrite, it is just mind boggling.
You feel only the good experiences deserve to be told, well guess what, some of us had terrible abusive experiences. And since FORNITS (god bless) is the only place we can come and talk about it, of course we all hang out here. DO you expect us to hang out at ST?
What is it that you are not understanding here?
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You claim you want to help parents find good programs and then you say this:
I don't care to name the programs my son attended.
You are here to argue with people, and that is it. You just proved it.
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Atomic Ant- these kind of issues with a pre-schooler or 2nd grader do not exactly bear much resemblance to what we are discussing here. Multiply what you described by hundreds- add drugs, alcohol and driving, and then we'll talk. Oh-and the kid should weigh more than YOU.
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I mentioned a number of good programs in my post. I have provided names privately to many people who have inquired. I know better than to do so publicly on this forum. Good try, but I'm not taking the bait.
Arguing with you Fornitscators is not that exciting-hate to tell you. It is very tedious and boring. I am here to counter your idiocy.
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On 2005-08-02 09:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You claim you want to help parents find good programs and then you say this:
I don't care to name the programs my son attended.
It's not clear to me how naming a program could compromise a persons' anonimity.
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On 2005-08-02 09:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I mentioned a number of good programs in my post. I have provided names privately to many people who have inquired. I know better than to do so publicly on this forum. Good try, but I'm not taking the bait.
Arguing with you Fornitscators is not that exciting-hate to tell you. It is very tedious and boring. I am here to counter your idiocy."
So you willingly state you are not here to have an intelligent debate.
You outted yourself as a troll, I suggest EVERYONE ignores this character.
I hope antigen can mark you IP with an avatar, it would make it easier to avoid you, troll.
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Arguing with you Fornitscators is not that exciting-hate to tell you. It is very tedious and boring. I am here to counter your idiocy."
HAHAHAHAHA
You fucking idiot, again you can't help but end your posts with how much you hate fornits. I hope you realize how stupid you look while saying this. You post here and spend more time here than anyone else, you made that much obvious. You must wake up angry, go to sleep angry and spend your entire life angry.
I pity you, and hope your family does as well, because you need help.
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check out this website
http://www.anti-wwasp.tk (http://www.anti-wwasp.tk)
a great new website for those against WWASP
:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
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The most hilarious part of this thread is the fact this ST troll suggests she (Im willing to bet this is a program mom) came over here only after being 'attacked' by Overlord.
Lady, you have become exactly what you supposively hate. You are overlord, you are the overlord of Fornits now. How much did you respect what OL said at ST? How much serious thought did you give his posts? What did the general community think of him? Did this hurt/help his own stance on the issue?
This is what is so funny, I am literally laughing out loud. Watching someone become what they hate, it doesn't get any better than that!
:rofl:
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Fornits and "Intelligent Debate" is an oxymoron.
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That's not a fair comparison; Overlordd can't type, write or spell (take your pick) so he's at a distinct disadvantage on ST. And anyone who says all programs are bad clearly isn't possessed of an open mind.
No one says abuses didn't occur. What I object to is taking my posts from ST and posting them here so everyone can laugh. No one has taken honest, first person accounts of abuse from Fornits and put them on ST so we could all make fun of them. Why? BECAUSE IT WOULD BE WRONG. That's what started this. Someone from this site took my words and called them 'funny s**t'. Not funny any more.
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Finally some names of the 'ST Preferred List'.
How ST defines an ?Acceptable? program:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=50#15461 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2549&forum=9&start=50#15461)
Many of the primary staff at Carlbrook came from the maverick program Academy at Swift River. You know the mavericks who staunchly refuse to be licensed and monitored by the state. (didn?t know a 24/7/365 child caring institution had that option or power)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#49399 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4886&forum=9&start=20#49399)
2002 Feb- Carlbrook requires SUWS prior to enrollment.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2002/2/visit02.html)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#69285 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7312&forum=9&start=0#69285)
Side effects:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=40#75452 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5854&forum=11&start=40#75452)
Opinion/ Critique
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#90322 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8819&forum=9&start=0#90322)
CASCADE? Another defunct program, due to lack of enrollment. The truth eventually catches up:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... rt=0&Sort= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=4140&forum=9&start=0&Sort=)
What say you PPs? Are you comfortable with your child attending a program(s) that models such lack a of integrity? Why would you or Lon refer parents to such an establishment? Do you inform parents that there is no governmental oversight?
I might add that Lon just put out an article on ?Secrets?- modeling the behavior you expect of the kids. Seems that only apply to program ?referral fees? though, not lying to the state about your services and avoiding oversight.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/p ... 5174.shtml (http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/article_5174.shtml)
Why do we talk in ?general? about programs? Because years of research has shown that most of these programs came out of CEDU- an abusive, and now defunct, program. There?s nothing new under the sun in terms of BM and mental conditioning. There are only so many ways it can be administered.
More info where this came from, just click Search WWF and type in the name of the program or one of the key players. Then do the same in a Google search. That?s how you research programs.
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WHICH PROGRAMS DID YOU SEND YOUR KIDS TO?
DJ, you are asking the forbidden question. They are conditioned at ST not to speak of any specific program on the forum. They want all recruitment to be conducted privately... cuts down on Lon's liability and problems with advertisers.
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Let?s play Identify the ST troll.
Who said:
That's what started this. Someone from this site took my words and called them 'funny s**t'. Not funny any more.
I think that would be Dev:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 95&forum=9 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10795&forum=9)
Looking at all the possibilities in that thread, I?m going to guess that the troll is the attorney from Dallas.
***What I object to is taking my posts from ST and posting them here so everyone can laugh.
Have you asked that individual to delete or edit his/her posts?
Seems reasonable that they might consider XXXing out the identifiers.
As to people's reactions to and opinions of your comments and choices, that can't be controlled. You put your story out for the public to read. It's pretty much open game for praise AND criticism.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-02 11:20 ]
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No one has taken honest, first person accounts of abuse from Fornits and put them on ST so we could all make fun of them. Why?
Why?! Because ST doesn't allow debate, they are a support group for program parents. You don't think some of us have tried posting our real experiences there? LOL Get real! You can play victim all you want, but you ain't winning any sympathy points here.
I would love for you to copy/paste first hand abusive experiences onto your website. It would certainly bring more reality to your delusional message board.
Now, off to look for the post labeled 'funny shit' so I can identify you, AND MAKE FUN OF YOU MORE!
:lol:
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Are you trying to say that Carlbrook and Swift River are bad, abusive programs? Yes, Carlbrook requires wilderness prior to enrollment. It does not have to be SUWS. Hidden Lake has its own captive wilderness program. These schools have strong academics, excellent therapists and are well-run and safe. Are there imperfections with the programs? Sure. Show me a school- any kind of school- that is perfect.
The young man who left Carlbrook at 18 (in your link) is but one voice. Do you really think he is representative?
I am not going to go into the licensing debate. There are many reasons why a business of ANY kind chooses to resist licensing requirements. I have been involved in these kind of disputes in totally unrelated industries. It does not mean that they have something to hide or want to run an abusive organization.
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Typical program parent. :lol:
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I am curious, does this date mean anything to anyone here?
September 12, 1952
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AREA 51
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***Are you trying to say that Carlbrook and Swift River are bad, abusive programs? Yes, Carlbrook requires wilderness prior to enrollment. It does not have to be SUWS. Hidden Lake has its own captive wilderness program. These schools have strong academics, excellent therapists and are well-run and safe.
Imperfections. An understatement. How is it that you have intimate knowledge of SO MANY programs?
No of course, you don't have to debate the licensing issue. What the public needs to know is that most of the programs you mentioned are not licensed, and techinically should be. They have no government oversight. You may be 'OK' with that, I think a parent has the right to know that minor detail.
I am very curious to know what you would tell a parent. BTW, they aren't licensed by the state because....
Do you have experience with HLA? I do. Two unpleasnat years. And I beg to differ with you on all points you made:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... rum=41&134 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8906&forum=41&134)
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=41&572 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=41&572)
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On 2005-08-02 11:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you trying to say that Carlbrook and Swift River are bad, abusive programs? Yes, Carlbrook requires wilderness prior to enrollment. It does not have to be SUWS. Hidden Lake has its own captive wilderness program. These schools have strong academics, excellent therapists and are well-run and safe. Are there imperfections with the programs? Sure. Show me a school- any kind of school- that is perfect.
The young man who left Carlbrook at 18 (in your link) is but one voice. Do you really think he is representative?
I am not going to go into the licensing debate. There are many reasons why a business of ANY kind chooses to resist licensing requirements. I have been involved in these kind of disputes in totally unrelated industries. It does not mean that they have something to hide or want to run an abusive organization. "
You seem to parse words similar to the way a lawyer might. Are you a lawyer by chance?
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That's my guess.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 270#120288 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=270#120288)
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I missed that post Deb, but it seems we have come to the same conclusion. :wink:
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On 2005-08-02 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Atomic Ant- these kind of issues with a pre-schooler or 2nd grader do not exactly bear much resemblance to what we are discussing here. Multiply what you described by hundreds- add drugs, alcohol and driving, and then we'll talk. Oh-and the kid should weigh more than YOU. "
God forbid you should find a teen that weighs more than I do! You would be looking for a weight loss camp. :smile:
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Sorry-nope, not a lawyer. There are other professions in which it is helpful to be able to read and write.
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On 2005-08-02 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am curious, does this date mean anything to anyone here?
September 12, 1952"
Its the day the ufos shot up a bunch of air force planes, hence area 51. Is that what you were wondering? Or is there something better that makes this date memorable?
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Then I am sure posting this doesn't bother you in the least then, right, Karen?
KareninDallas
Member Status: Member
Member Number: 3697
Registered: June 03, 2003
Posts: 385
Email Address: http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... u=00003697 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=recent_user_posts;u=00003697)
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On 2005-08-02 11:54:00, Shortbus wrote:
"
On 2005-08-02 11:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am curious, does this date mean anything to anyone here?
September 12, 1952"
Its the day the ufos shot up a bunch of air force planes, hence area 51. Is that what you were wondering? Or is there something better that makes this date memorable?"
Its the day our troll was born. UFOs and all, makes a lot of sense eh? :lol:
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That's not my name, my birthday, my occupation. Wrong on all counts. And what's the point again?
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Sure its not. :lol:
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Seems to me that lots of people go by the name Anonymous.......you are dealing with multi-trolls.
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Could be goldenguru
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=001054 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001054)
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Lots of people on both sides of the issue.
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Nope. Its Karen, I have no doubt. The anons above is just Karen trying to cover her tracks better.
NO- there has only been ONE program troll.
You give these trolls enough rope and they always end up hanging themselves.
Welcome to fornits, Karen.
PS: Karen is available on IM right now. What a coincidence!
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I am sick of this war of words. Just leave us be
by goldenguru
Goldenguru and the rest of the ST parents all ignore us, and make the smart decision not to come over here and troll us. Search Karen's posts. She continues with the Dev and OL bashing WAY beyond anyone else.
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Who is the troll?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =37#120330 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37#120330)
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I found this site on strugglingteens. Im guessing theres a few parents that come over here. Ive worked in the damn industry and I like reading both perspectives. But I try to be objective about it.
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Welcome to fornits. Im surprised you found us, they try to block out all the links over here. I'm sure you'll find a much more open discussion here, where it is uncensored.
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By open do you mean you can use your full vocabulary of 4 letter words? That's the only open thing I see about this board.
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An "open" discussion, as in 'if you agree with us that all programs are abusive and they're all run by the spawn of Satan', welcome aboard. However, if you try to say that some programs are worthwhile, get ready for the namecalling and parent bashing.
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YOu are correct. I have already been deleted over there a couple times. Thats the way it goes, everyone plays by a different set of rules. I dont have to agree with the rules but I sure do appreciate it when I know what they are and everyone is playing by the same ones.
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On 2005-08-02 12:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"YOu are correct. I have already been deleted over there a couple times. Thats the way it goes, everyone plays by a different set of rules. I dont have to agree with the rules but I sure do appreciate it when I know what they are and everyone is playing by the same ones."
This is me.
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There are pros and cons to both sites. Some days I want chocolate chip and other days I want strawberry ice cream. Flavors for everyone.
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By open do you mean you can use your full vocabulary of 4 letter words? That's the only open thing I see about this board.
An "open" discussion, as in 'if you agree with us that all programs are abusive and they're all run by the spawn of Satan', welcome aboard. However, if you try to say that some programs are worthwhile, get ready for the namecalling and parent bashing.
Hi Karen :wave:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =37#120330 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37#120330)
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Sorry, you got the wrong person.
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =37#120330 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37#120330)
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An "open" discussion, as in 'if you agree with us that all programs are abusive and they're all run by the spawn of Satan', welcome aboard. However, if you try to say that some programs are worthwhile, get ready for the namecalling and parent bashing.
You sure do love your quotation marks, don't ya Karen? :lol:
Taken from Struggling teens, post by Karen
'Well- both of mine were screwed up. Daughter acted "in" and handled her depression by cutting. We were able to treat her locally and a change in school environment helped a lot. She remained successful academically through the whole thing. Son acted "out" and required programs. Lots of their issues arose from our parenting, but not all. It is a tough time to be a teenager, and a tough time to be a parent.'
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =37#120330 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37#120330)
Why don't you just admit it already... ?
Because we already know. :em:
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I think its going nowhere. An admission is not forthcoming.
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On 2005-08-02 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Fornits and "Intelligent Debate" is an oxymoron."
I get a kick out of stupid people calling others stupid. You sure you're an attorney? Must settle a lot of cases, huh? Any trial with you at the helm would be a serious gamble for your client...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-02 13:58 ]
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On 2005-08-02 11:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you trying to say that Carlbrook and Swift River are bad, abusive programs? Yes, Carlbrook requires wilderness prior to enrollment. It does not have to be SUWS. Hidden Lake has its own captive wilderness program. These schools have strong academics, excellent therapists and are well-run and safe. Are there imperfections with the programs? Sure. Show me a school- any kind of school- that is perfect.
The young man who left Carlbrook at 18 (in your link) is but one voice. Do you really think he is representative?
I am not going to go into the licensing debate. There are many reasons why a business of ANY kind chooses to resist licensing requirements. I have been involved in these kind of disputes in totally unrelated industries. It does not mean that they have something to hide or want to run an abusive organization. "
You don't know what you're talking about, lady. I WORKED at HLA, and what you're saying has no resemblence to reality.
They are an unlicensed, unaccredited BM warehouse that also has an unlicensed wilderness program as well.
They take any and all kids that can pay the fees, even court-mandated, violent felons.
The "academics" are a huge fraud where no kid is ever given a failing grade for anything, regardless of whether or not they did any work or even WENT to class. When I worked there there weren't even any licensed teachers. They had a dorm counselor teaching Biology.
The "Clinical Director" has a phony degree from a diploma mill, LaSalle University (Mandeville, La.), the counselors are subpar to say the least and many have no credentials at all. And the owner is fully aware of this and simply doesn't care. I spoke with him at length about it several times. Asses in chairs is all they care about.
They use sleep deprivation and withhold food as punishment. They use restraint, even though they say they don't. They strip search, even though they say they don't.
The Headmaster was fired because of his terrible behavior and went directly to ASW to continue abusing kids there. He was from CEDU, a known abusive (and recently shut down) facility, as were all of the original staff.
Kids have reported on this board that they traded clothes for drugs and alcohol, which were provided by staff members.
One kid recently posted that s/he was there for FOUR YEARS AND POST-GRAD. They say 18 months.
I literally could go on and on with the lies and deceit of this program, but it's already been covered in the HLA thread. I suggest you check some facts before you make statements.
You sound less and less like an attorney and more and more like a common half-wit programmie.
I'm glad anon took the liberty of posting your name and contact information so that any of your prospective clients can see exactly how jammed-up they'll get when they hire you. "Proof, your honor? I don't need proof. I just need to SAY SO." Geez...
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For the record, HLAs wilderness program is licensed. It wasn't before I reported them to the Office of Regulatory Services. They told me that wilderness programs weren't required to be licensed in Ga.
HLA is not licensed. I have no idea how they have successfully avoided it.
They are accredited by a couple of organizations which monitor the 'academics', if you will, but not the 'therapeutic' aspects of the program.
So much for the academics. My son returned 5 credits behind his peers.
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Many of the Hidden Lake grads are attending excellent colleges.
Seems to be a solid program for many kids.
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On 2005-08-02 15:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Many of the Hidden Lake grads are attending excellent colleges.
Seems to be a solid program for many kids."
Many "lifer" inmates in the prison system here in NY are also attending excellent colleges. Maybe we should start sending our kids into the penal system, as long as the only qualifier for a "good program" is college attendence...
I seriously don't see how you could ever form a logical argument in a court of law. Maybe that's why you're a little "slow" lately-lack of talent.
"Underemployed part-time Barrister seeks full-time employment as resident dip-shit." I wrote your ad for you...
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I am not a lawyer, but perhaps you are??? Did you get fired from HLA? I hope so. No wonder it has improved so much.
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Why the meanness? Whatever happened to 'agreeing to disagree'?
See, lots of people can use quotes!
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:wave:
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more here
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =37#120330 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37#120330)
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I have not been identified, but I feel sorry for the person you think I am.
What is the big deal about identifying people, anyway. It's not like YOU are brave enough to reveal your personal information. Who cares? It's a message forum. Do you really think you are all that important to the world?
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My name is Karen Austin. I live in Dallas, Texas. I sent my son to a program, twice actually. I usually hang out on Struggling Teens, but decided to come here and troll. I have an underlying anger problem, and I prefer to direct that anger towards my children- but now that they are gone. I was forced to find an alternative outlet for my anger, which led me here to fornits web forum. I was an attorney, but I wasn't very good and don't get work anymore. That used to give me a great opportunity to let my rage out. But now, I prefer to troll message boards with abused adults who lived through horrific upbringings, and tell them what losers they are. Sure, it might sound weird to some people, but it works for me! [email protected]
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more about me here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =37#120330 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11072&forum=37#120330)
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Don't believe everything you read around here.
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...if that is KareninDallas, that isn't her email address. From what I know of her posts on the other board, I doubt that she would post anonymously here.
I was a supporter of this site, even though I never registered. Now I am registering but don't plan to stick around. The level of immaturity is mind-boggling. What have you proven by your attack here? If people come to this board to check out the Brat Camp issues, is THIS the kind of stuff you want them to see?
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What's the big deal?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 190#120038 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=190#120038)
The tip for me:
The Anon troll said:
By open do you mean you can use your full vocabulary of 4 letter words? That's the only open thing I see about this board.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 300#120342 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=300#120342)
At ST the attorney wrote:
I suggest that we all stay away from that site. They seem to be out of control right now- lots of 4 letter words and personal attacks against us. I think the main reason for the 4 letter words is that they can't spell anything longer than that, to tell you the truth.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=001054 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001054)
And another:
Where's Devlin been through all this? Did he exhaust his reportoire of 3 words?
Anyone else at ST obsessed with 3 and 4 letter words?
***
So Karen,
Did one of your compadres pick up your line at ST and use it here?
Be proud, model integrity. Stand behind your disrespectful words.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-02 16:53 ]
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Nothing disrespectful there. The Fornits rep over at ST is the notoriously bad typing/spelling Overlordd, possibly not your shiniest example of literacy.
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I wandered over here from ST and people at fornits have some valuable insights. It doesnt help your cause when a person has to wade through crappy banter like this to try to get to the good stuff. Might be something to think about...
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On 2005-08-02 16:35:00, hogheaven wrote:
"...if that is KareninDallas, that isn't her email address. From what I know of her posts on the other board, I doubt that she would post anonymously here.
I was a supporter of this site, even though I never registered. Now I am registering but don't plan to stick around. The level of immaturity is mind-boggling. What have you proven by your attack here? If people come to this board to check out the Brat Camp issues, is THIS the kind of stuff you want them to see?"
OH NO! Nobody will miss you, believe me. :rofl:
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On 2005-08-02 16:53:00, Shortbus wrote:
"I wandered over here from ST and people at fornits have some valuable insights. It doesnt help your cause when a person has to wade through crappy banter like this to try to get to the good stuff. Might be something to think about..."
This is a place to discuss whatever the fuck we want to talk about. There is no 'fornits cause'. The cause is to speak our mind.
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On 2005-08-02 16:35:00, hogheaven wrote:
"...if that is KareninDallas, that isn't her email address. From what I know of her posts on the other board, I doubt that she would post anonymously here.
I was a supporter of this site, even though I never registered. Now I am registering but don't plan to stick around. The level of immaturity is mind-boggling. What have you proven by your attack here? If people come to this board to check out the Brat Camp issues, is THIS the kind of stuff you want them to see?"
Grasping at straws, eh Karen. Nice try. Everyone coming to your defense is a new member, what a coincidence.
And yes, that is Karen's email. If you want her phone number, address and anything else, it's only a matter of time until you find it posted on fornits somewhere.
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On 2005-08-02 16:37:00, Deborah wrote:
"What's the big deal?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 190#120038 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=190#120038)
The tip for me:
The Anon troll said:
By open do you mean you can use your full vocabulary of 4 letter words? That's the only open thing I see about this board.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 300#120342 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=300#120342)
At ST the attorney wrote:
I suggest that we all stay away from that site. They seem to be out of control right now- lots of 4 letter words and personal attacks against us. I think the main reason for the 4 letter words is that they can't spell anything longer than that, to tell you the truth.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=001054 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001054)
And another:
Where's Devlin been through all this? Did he exhaust his reportoire of 3 words?
Anyone else at ST obsessed with 3 and 4 letter words?
***
So Karen,
Did one of your compadres pick up your line at ST and use it here?
Be proud, model integrity. Stand behind your disrespectful words.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-02 16:53 ]"
Deb, you are spot on. There is undeniable proof here, and anyone who takes the time to read through all of this will see that too.
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Well that shut her up fast about programs.
Now her and the rest of the Struggling trolls are attacking the integrity of the site I guess.
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On 2005-08-02 16:37:00, Deborah wrote:
"What's the big deal?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 190#120038 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=190#120038)
The tip for me:
The Anon troll said:
By open do you mean you can use your full vocabulary of 4 letter words? That's the only open thing I see about this board.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 300#120342 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=300#120342)
At ST the attorney wrote:
I suggest that we all stay away from that site. They seem to be out of control right now- lots of 4 letter words and personal attacks against us. I think the main reason for the 4 letter words is that they can't spell anything longer than that, to tell you the truth.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=001054 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001054)
And another:
Where's Devlin been through all this? Did he exhaust his reportoire of 3 words?
Anyone else at ST obsessed with 3 and 4 letter words?
***
So Karen,
Did one of your compadres pick up your line at ST and use it here?
Be proud, model integrity. Stand behind your disrespectful words.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-02 16:53 ]"
Great job Deb! That is definitely the ::smokingun::
ShortBus- you walked right into a battlefield. There are tens of thousands of posts here, and nobody is going to find the good ones for you. Try the search button on the left to find what you are looking for. Just a tip.
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On 2005-08-02 17:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-08-02 16:35:00, hogheaven wrote:
"...if that is KareninDallas, that isn't her email address. From what I know of her posts on the other board, I doubt that she would post anonymously here.
I was a supporter of this site, even though I never registered. Now I am registering but don't plan to stick around. The level of immaturity is mind-boggling. What have you proven by your attack here? If people come to this board to check out the Brat Camp issues, is THIS the kind of stuff you want them to see?"
Grasping at straws, eh Karen. Nice try. Everyone coming to your defense is a new member, what a coincidence.
And yes, that is Karen's email. If you want her phone number, address and anything else, it's only a matter of time until you find it posted on fornits somewhere. "
OKAY I APOLOGIZE. YOU WERE CORRECT.
Karens email is actually :
[email protected]
not hotmail. I apologize for any misunderstanding!
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The Anon troll said: [at fornits]
By open do you mean you can use your full vocabulary of 4 letter words? That's the only open thing I see about this board.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 300#120342 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10963&forum=37&start=300#120342)
At ST the attorney wrote: [at struggling teens]
I suggest that we all stay away from that site. They seem to be out of control right now- lots of 4 letter words and personal attacks against us. I think the main reason for the 4 letter words is that they can't spell anything longer than that, to tell you the truth.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=001054 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001054)
---
The attorney Deborah is referencing is Karen Austin, AKA, Karenindallas from struggling teens, aka the troll who has been harassing fornits for a while now- particularly in this thread.
Doesn't that second quote there from Struggling trolls sure sound an awful lot like the anonymous troll postings lately? :rofl:
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I suggest that we all stay away from that site.
Pity you couldn't have heeded your own advice. :lol:
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Its all good, some is just better.
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Do you really think we, as parents, are stupid enough to just hand our kids over without knowing a lot about these programs and others who have been through them?
Yes!
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Yes. Most definitely.
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A positive spin
http://www.davisenterprise.com/articles ... 51new0.txt (http://www.davisenterprise.com/articles/2005/08/02/news/151new0.txt)
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Sagewalk Newsletter
http://www.sagewalk.com/brat_camp.pdf (http://www.sagewalk.com/brat_camp.pdf)
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On 2005-08-03 16:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"A positive spin
http://www.davisenterprise.com/articles ... 51new0.txt (http://www.davisenterprise.com/articles/2005/08/02/news/151new0.txt)"
Once she returned from SageWalk, Lauren said she finished classes required for her high school diploma, started working at two jobs and became certified in CPR.
After visiting family in Texas this summer, Lauren plans to take classes at Sacramento City College in the fall. She's thinking about a career as a SageWalk instructor or working in the entertainment business. Lauren said she's focused on "getting a real life together, being 18."
AND SO IT BEGINS ... another field instructor is born ... or reality show production assistant ...
The Beat Goes On.
:smokin:
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I'm not surprised. After being force marched over 7 miles uphill in a blizzard her comment was, "Exhilarating, exhilarating".
She's also the one that always giving orders when it's time to divy up the chores.
I labled her 'Most Likely to be Converted' pretty early on.
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On 2005-07-30 03:20:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"
Quote...
I might add that when we started to back out of committing to send our son to above mentioned camp, the ed. con. started to get very nasty, criticizing us for allowing our son to sway us, for "waffling," and generally criticizing our parenting skills--as well as portraying our son as almost a lost cause, someone who was not going to turn himself around unless he went off to wilderness camp.
------------------------------------------------
First I would look over your family situation, and maybe even consider something a bit revolutionary. However, before I delve into my revolutionary idea let me espound on my opinion regarding scum.
Ed Cons are the matchmakers of the wilderness therapy industry. Their money is made on the placements made at their reccomendations. I would seriously trust and ED Con about as far as you can throw them. In my experience ED Cons are the most catered to visitors of any facility. Cleaning up your program for a parent? Why bother... they are desperate, and will not likely notice the blood stains, and whipping post. Now Ed Cons thats a substantial amount of dollars looking around, clean the place up, and everyone be good. Obviously I hate scum, so lets go on to my revolutionary idea.
things to avoid
no communication
no intake assesment
Lots over other stuff do a search on it."
I worked with an education consultant when I was at my wits end in college. I was a senior in college and somehow had still not been diagnosed as gifted/learning disabled (both). I had struggled with depression for years when I would burn out and just couldn't work any more. One semester I didn't do any of my work and was suicidal, even after that it wasn't until 2 years later that we were able to figure out what the problems were. I was a good kid, not terribly defiant, but I did lie about not completing my work and tried to handle my depression on my own. With the help of the assesment from the ed con. and her guidance and training that provided me with the TOOLS I needed to suceed, I switched majors and graduated from Westminster Choir College of Rider University (the smae place I had been attending, and a very well known music school.) She never once suggested anything like a boot campt for me. She believe in cognitive/behavioral therapy. (Definately not just strict behavior mod. I was too old for that, too smart for that, and it never would have worked for me.) True I wasn't involved with drugs, but my family situation was also messed up in a few ways that we are still working through, but I am doing well for myself right now.
Not all Ed. Cons are pond scum, thank you very much. :flame:
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Pardon the spelling an grammar errors, I don't have much time to edit right now.
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most edcuational consultants do not get kickbacks from the programs. the clients pay them.
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The educational consultant that helped me with my problems that I referred to in my last post (I'm the Westminster grad) was actually a liscened education psycholigist.
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On 2005-07-30 16:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-30 12:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Parents- you would be better off getting advice from http://www.strugglingteen.com (http://www.strugglingteen.com) than from here. This site is a militaristic group of disgruntled teens and young adults (with a few disgruntled adults thrown in who can't get past their teens) and the advice is not reliable. "
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Struggling teens is run by an EDCON who makes money off sending kids to programs. This is their version of marketing I suppose. "
This is from the Westminster Grad again... wow, that website sure has a strange definition for "Educational Consultant!" They also seem to have a very strange understanding of the meaning of the word "independent." Thankfully, the consultant I saw was nothing like this.
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On 2005-07-31 08:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The parents on strugglingteens have not "given up" on their kids. To the contrary, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice- sending their child away from home for help.
Couldn't go a post without saying this could you?
Fuck you for thinking YOU made the ultimate sacrifice. Your CHILD did, in most cases, against their will. You merely did what the EDCON told you to do. You are a dollar sign and don't even know it."
Relax! Emotions are getting too high here and when you regress to comments like "fuck you," you are not allowing dialogue to grow in any way. I don't agree with most of what goes on in these camps, but I do believe that most of these parents genuinly (can't spell today, sorry) want to try to do what is best for their child. Many of them have tried many other methods with little sucess. The parents that I have the problem with are the ones who haven't tried or put forth the full effort. Often, the whole family needs help, not just the "kid." One person's problems affects the whole family and everyone in the family contributes to this. This is why family therapy is so effective and important.
From watching "Brat Camp" on TV, I have to say that I have real problems with many of their methods. I don't know how kids are supposed to build trust when they switch guides on them as they did to this group even near the beginning of the program. When kids are lied to in order to enter the program, this does not build trust. IMHO, (I'm no professional)trust is one of the most important things these teens need to learn. Not just trust of others, but to trust themselves. That is part of many of their issues with lies. I don't see how surprising them repeatedly will enable them to build any of this trust. How will they ever learn to ask for help if they need it in the future. America is socialogically the most logical place for a program like this with it's rugged individualism. I find a lot of contradictory messages in this progam- for instance- you have to do it yourself vs. you need to do things for the sake of the group.
Finally, I question whether the 13 yr. old really has the maturity to be able to handle a program like this. His cognitive abilities are less developed and he is dealing with ADHD on top of it. I know many of you may not "believe in" ADHD/ADD, but I have it, and I'm telling you, it's real. Being told over and over that he is faking it isn't going to help him much. For years I had been told that I was just being passive aggresive and didn't want to do my work, or believed that I was lazy, or was told that I really wanted to fail, not succeed, etc. Trust me that really screws with your sense of self and creates some major emotional insercurity etc. later on... not that it can't be worked out of course :wink:BY NO MEANS HOWEVER DO I MEAN THAT HIS ADHD SHOULD BE USED AS AN EXCUSE!!! Far too often parents and kids justify unacceptable behavior under the guise of ADD. TO DO SO WOULD BE TO UNJUSTLY LEAVE THE CHILD TOTALLY UNPREPARED FOR LIFE IN THE REAL WORLD. He does however, need to be given TOOLS so he can RECOGNIZE when he is having a problem, COMPENSATE with his new skills and learn to COPE with his disadvantage to make him a productive member of society. I put this in caps because too often people will focus on my ADD after I mention that I have it and assume that the previous are not the beliefs that I hold. (We wind up saying the same things, but they go on arguing because they are too blind to see we really agree. I just sort of shut up at that point... lol)
The physical issues of that kid disturb me too because, not being a medical professional, I have no idea whether he is really capable of the tasks they are giving him or not. He is so much smaller than the other kids. I have physical challenges myself, so it makes me wonder how I would have been treated in such a program. I have very serious allergies and allergy induced asthma. I also have a weak immune system. (I've most grown out of the weak immune system part of things, but would need special blood if I ever had to receive a transfusion.)
Sorry to rant for so long. Some of these programs may have some validity and efficacy to them. Watching the program, I do see adjustments that I think they could make to have this work better. Of course, I'm no psychologist, the most I have done is the 3 psychology classes I had in college and the education I received from reading over my mom's shoulder when she was in grad school for social work. Not having studied this, I have no proof. I think more studies need to be done on this, but in the meantime, the welfare of these children should be safeguarded and watched extremely carefully.
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On 2005-08-03 21:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-31 08:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The parents on strugglingteens have not "given up" on their kids. To the contrary, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice- sending their child away from home for help.
Couldn't go a post without saying this could you?
Fuck you for thinking YOU made the ultimate sacrifice. Your CHILD did, in most cases, against their will. You merely did what the EDCON told you to do. You are a dollar sign and don't even know it."
Relax! Emotions are getting too high here and when you regress to comments like "fuck you," you are not allowing dialogue to grow in any way. I don't agree with most of what goes on in these camps, but I do believe that most of these parents genuinly (can't spell today, sorry) want to try to do what is best for their child. Many of them have tried many other methods with little sucess. The parents that I have the problem with are the ones who haven't tried or put forth the full effort. Often, the whole family needs help, not just the "kid." One person's problems affects the whole family and everyone in the family contributes to this. This is why family therapy is so effective and important.
From watching "Brat Camp" on TV, I have to say that I have real problems with many of their methods. I don't know how kids are supposed to build trust when they switch guides on them as they did to this group even near the beginning of the program. When kids are lied to in order to enter the program, this does not build trust. IMHO, (I'm no professional)trust is one of the most important things these teens need to learn. Not just trust of others, but to trust themselves. That is part of many of their issues with lies. I don't see how surprising them repeatedly will enable them to build any of this trust. How will they ever learn to ask for help if they need it in the future. America is socialogically the most logical place for a program like this with it's rugged individualism. I find a lot of contradictory messages in this progam- for instance- you have to do it yourself vs. you need to do things for the sake of the group.
Finally, I question whether the 13 yr. old really has the maturity to be able to handle a program like this. His cognitive abilities are less developed and he is dealing with ADHD on top of it. I know many of you may not "believe in" ADHD/ADD, but I have it, and I'm telling you, it's real. Being told over and over that he is faking it isn't going to help him much. For years I had been told that I was just being passive aggresive and didn't want to do my work, or believed that I was lazy, or was told that I really wanted to fail, not succeed, etc. Trust me that really screws with your sense of self and creates some major emotional insercurity etc. later on... not that it can't be worked out of course :wink:BY NO MEANS HOWEVER DO I MEAN THAT HIS ADHD SHOULD BE USED AS AN EXCUSE!!! Far too often parents and kids justify unacceptable behavior under the guise of ADD. TO DO SO WOULD BE TO UNJUSTLY LEAVE THE CHILD TOTALLY UNPREPARED FOR LIFE IN THE REAL WORLD. He does however, need to be given TOOLS so he can RECOGNIZE when he is having a problem, COMPENSATE with his new skills and learn to COPE with his disadvantage to make him a productive member of society. I put this in caps because too often people will focus on my ADD after I mention that I have it and assume that the previous are not the beliefs that I hold. (We wind up saying the same things, but they go on arguing because they are too blind to see we really agree. I just sort of shut up at that point... lol)
The physical issues of that kid disturb me too because, not being a medical professional, I have no idea whether he is really capable of the tasks they are giving him or not. He is so much smaller than the other kids. I have physical challenges myself, so it makes me wonder how I would have been treated in such a program. I have very serious allergies and allergy induced asthma. I also have a weak immune system. (I've most grown out of the weak immune system part of things, but would need special blood if I ever had to receive a transfusion.)
Sorry to rant for so long. Some of these programs may have some validity and efficacy to them. Watching the program, I do see adjustments that I think they could make to have this work better. Of course, I'm no psychologist, the most I have done is the 3 psychology classes I had in college and the education I received from reading over my mom's shoulder when she was in grad school for social work. Not having studied this, I have no proof. I think more studies need to be done on this, but in the meantime, the welfare of these children should be safeguarded and watched extremely carefully."
I totally agree about Derrick. The program is traumitizing him to the point where he is suffering from depression. He is falling apart and putting on a brave face. This is abusive and there is no excuse for it. It is enraging to me that the staff (and probably the viewers) don't see this because they are listening to and believing the narrator in spite of what their own eyes would see if the narration were turned off.
The saddest part of all is that he will probably never receive the very real help he needs.
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On 2005-07-31 20:50:00, OverLordd wrote:
"YOU FUCKING INSULTING ANIMAL!!!
I go to that board and I'm nice, I post politely even though I hate you and I disagree. Then you bastards come over here and you dont even act civil? You are comeplete hypocates, no wonder your kids are so fucked up!!! No wonder they hate you!!! I spit on you and everything you stand for.
You are not caring!!! You sent your kid away!! Guess FUCKING WHAT!!! THATS NOT CARING!!! CARING IS NEVER LETTING IT HAPPEN IN THE FIRST PLACE. One day your kid will see this and he/ she will hate you and everything you are, but you will say you are right, because you are blind!!!
You say we are a hate group? You are worse, we may hate you, but you, you come the fuck over here, dont even have the balls to sign your post, and you act like your perfect little fucks raising your kids they way it was ment to happen. You are hypocates, you stand at Struggling teens and act like your all good and open minded but your more blind than us, all of you are animals, and dishonorable shit that I would not take the time to scrape off my boot."
Hmmm, talk about hypocrites, I'm having real trouble with both sides of the issue here.
For the peple who are angry at the parents who send their kids to the camps:
Look, sometimes things happen, even in the best of families, and kids somehow wind up on the wrong path. Sometimes it truly is the fault of the parents, but I think for the most part all of the parents are trying everything they can. I've seen some very good parents struggling with "bad kids." I do worry that some of these kids will not be able to get out of their situation, but unfortunately, sometimes they just have to learn it the hard way once they are out from under your roof. It is hard for any loving parent to be able to do that...
For the parents who sent their children to the camp, who are angry at the other parents for insulting their parenting skills etc.:
Don't worry about their parenting skills. In theory, you know what is best for your children. Many of you have tried everything else to no avail. This does NOT mean however, that the parents that do NOT send their problem child (if they have one) to the camps is a bad parent either.
Can't we all just get along! :razz:
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On 2005-08-03 21:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-31 08:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
I totally agree about Derrick. The program is traumitizing him to the point where he is suffering from depression. He is falling apart and putting on a brave face. This is abusive and there is no excuse for it. It is enraging to me that the staff (and probably the viewers) don't see this because they are listening to and believing the narrator in spite of what their own eyes would see if the narration were turned off.
The saddest part of all is that he will probably never receive the very real help he needs."
Well, you never know. Maybe, if he falls down again he'll get the help he needs. I wan't in as much trouble as Derrick, but I didn't find out about my ADD until my Soph. year in HS and my giftedness and learning disabilities until my first senior year of college. (I compensated for my shortcomings with my gifts- not that is was easy... lol)Eventually I got where I needed to be.
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what year were you there, and did you get a physical before you went out to the field? I didn't get one for 28 days after they dropped me off.
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As the step-parent of one of these type of chldren you have no clue the pain, anguish and heartbreak it takes to make a decision like these parents did.
I have watched my husband go to hell and back several times attempting to keep our son in the home, believing as all parents do, that we could help him... we were so wrong. When we finally gave in and sent him to a wilderness type program it was the most horrible decision to have to make. But the bottom line is that our son needed help we were not equiped to provide and despite years of appealing to almost every agency in Florida for help, no was available until my husband gave up custody to DCF. For all those undereducated folks, most treatment programs are not covered by insurance and run upwards of $500 dollars a day. Our son had become a danger to himself and our other children.
To all of those that cannot understand how a parent can "give up" a child like that and think it is the easy way out, should speak with my husband for even 5 minutes. You will find heartbreak, utter despair and a feeling of total failure. So until you have walked a mile in the shoes of one of these parents/caregivers please do not share your completly uneducated opinion, I pray that none of you ever face the kind of decisions that we have had to.
I wish that I had known about Sagewalk, please also know that the majority of these type of kids are master manipulators and it sounds as if you all have fallen for the acting/antics.
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On 2005-08-08 10:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"As the step-parent of one of these type of chldren you have no clue the pain, anguish and heartbreak it takes to make a decision like these parents did.
I have watched my husband go to hell and back several times attempting to keep our son in the home, believing as all parents do, that we could help him... we were so wrong. When we finally gave in and sent him to a wilderness type program it was the most horrible decision to have to make. But the bottom line is that our son needed help we were not equiped to provide and despite years of appealing to almost every agency in Florida for help, no was available until my husband gave up custody to DCF. For all those undereducated folks, most treatment programs are not covered by insurance and run upwards of $500 dollars a day. Our son had become a danger to himself and our other children.
To all of those that cannot understand how a parent can "give up" a child like that and think it is the easy way out, should speak with my husband for even 5 minutes. You will find heartbreak, utter despair and a feeling of total failure. So until you have walked a mile in the shoes of one of these parents/caregivers please do not share your completly uneducated opinion, I pray that none of you ever face the kind of decisions that we have had to.
I wish that I had known about Sagewalk, please also know that the majority of these type of kids are master manipulators and it sounds as if you all have fallen for the acting/antics."
::boohoo::
You don't honestly think people buy this poor, pitiful parent routine do you>
:smokin:
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Talk about manipulation....
Struggling Step Parent,
What exactly did the DCF/program do for your step-son that your hubby couldn't/wouldn't do at home?
Which program did DCF send him to?
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HAve you raised one of these children successfully ? Have you watched your other children, teachers, nieghbors and innocent bystanders be abused ?
Given your response you are definetly one of the uneducated bunch out there...
These parents and children need to our prayers and understanding, not the insults of anybody who has not been in these circumstances ...
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We tried Eckerd Youth ALternative, Crossroads, Circles of Care, University Behavioral Center the list goes on.
You can only do so much at home, however when that child is physically acting out towards all around him, including a 300 pound sherrif, your options become limited.
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RATINGS are falling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Some parents figuring out it was a mistake to let their kids participate (e.g. Jada Chabot).
The whole wilderness therapy industry just took a major negative hit with Brat Camp.
Congratulations SAGE WALK AND ABC!!!
Your collaborative exploitation of children and families royally backfired.
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!
Now, how about a show with troubled parents playing tug-of-war with their teens?
That's gotta be a winner.
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Daytime talkshows... thats where that kind of bullshit belongs :grin:
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense
--Buddha
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Dream on- this will help the wilderness industry. The problem of the cost is still there, though. Upwards of $10K for every 3 weeks..... hardly any covered by insurance.
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Actually, I have had 'one of these types of kids' whose problems began AFTER 6 months in a program.
So what did Eckerd Youth ALternative, Crossroads, Circles of Care, University Behavioral Center do for him that dad couldn't?
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On 2005-08-08 10:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Dream on- this will help the wilderness industry. The problem of the cost is still there, though. Upwards of $10K for every 3 weeks..... hardly any covered by insurance."
After BRAT CAMP, parents who send their kids to WT will be too ashamed to admit it.
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I wonder were you faced with a choice of DCF removing the other children from your home ? We had a Doctor from a crisis center tell us we where nuts if we brought him home... he was homocidal, sucidial and acting out sexually.
He never made it long enough at Eckerd to get help, then went from the crisis center to University Behavioral Center. What could we not provide him at home ... 24 hour a day supervision. He was at the point that he could not control himself to get through a school day and I would be the one to go pick him up. It got so bad that I would bring my site superintendent with me out of fear. At home we could no longer control him when he would go into a rage, and he made a target out of the 2 youngest, who at 3 & 5 really could not protect themselves.
At University Behavioral Center he continually refused to attempt to co-operate with any help provided/offered. In addition testing showed him to have a propensity to rape as a form of control over others. Believe me sending him into DCF custody was not a decision made lightly, however it was at the recommendation of over 20 mental health professionals from various agencies.
I wonder have you found anything that has worked for your child ? We would love to hear about it - all we want is for our son to have a productive life. Please do not assume it has been for lack of parenting on our part - we are actively involved in all of his therapy. Unfortunately the one thing we have learned through this process is that until he wants the help - he will continue down this destructive path.
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That's part of the problem, since people do not understand how dangerous and scary these kids can be ... they get refered to as "bad/lazy parents" and do not talk about it. They live in a private HELL until they either send the child away for help or that child hurts someone and ends up in custody.
We have one of these kids and if we are such bad parents how come our other six children are happy, well adjusted, respectful healthy kids ? Two of them being teenagers ?
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On 2005-08-08 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I wonder were you faced with a choice of DCF removing the other children from your home ? We had a Doctor from a crisis center tell us we where nuts if we brought him home... he was homocidal, sucidial and acting out sexually.
He never made it long enough at Eckerd to get help, then went from the crisis center to University Behavioral Center. What could we not provide him at home ... 24 hour a day supervision. He was at the point that he could not control himself to get through a school day and I would be the one to go pick him up. It got so bad that I would bring my site superintendent with me out of fear. At home we could no longer control him when he would go into a rage, and he made a target out of the 2 youngest, who at 3 & 5 really could not protect themselves.
At University Behavioral Center he continually refused to attempt to co-operate with any help provided/offered. In addition testing showed him to have a propensity to rape as a form of control over others. Believe me sending him into DCF custody was not a decision made lightly, however it was at the recommendation of over 20 mental health professionals from various agencies.
I wonder have you found anything that has worked for your child ? We would love to hear about it - all we want is for our son to have a productive life. Please do not assume it has been for lack of parenting on our part - we are actively involved in all of his therapy. Unfortunately the one thing we have learned through this process is that until he wants the help - he will continue down this destructive path. "
Until he wants help ... 4 important words.
In and out of programs does take it's toll, ya know.
As for the other kids who turned out "just right"?
That's a question only you can answer. Obviously you aren't the perfect parent (who is?) but to blame it all on the kid is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!
Grow up and take some responsibility, parents.
:smokin:
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None of our children are perfect, niether are we as parents. As far as the other children in the household , what I was taking exception to was the statement that we are not disciplining this child or not doing a good job - how do you explain the other children in the household who function at a normal (whatever that may be level ?
Please do not dare tell a parent to take responsibility...here is a flaw in that statement, niether on of us are this childs biological parents. My husband came into his life at 5 years old and I came into his life at 12 years old. Take responsibility !!! HAH we have taken responsibility far beyond the call of duty of a biological parent and I have the physical scars to show for it, please get off that trip. Actually we have had more than one professional tell us that we should have the adoption overturned - we have not done that. My husband has taken this responsibility very seriously over the past few years !!!
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The main thing you should have learned from watching BC is that there is always something below a child's 'undesirable' behavior.
With Nick it was being teased relentlessly because of his dylexia.
Lexie- sexually abused by a family friend.
Lauren- grieving her father's death.
Iasiah- resentment toward his mother for breaking up the family......
Has even ONE of these people/programs discovered what is underlying this child's anger?
Good god. Adopted. Two step mom's in 7 years. Numerous programs. I'd say the kid has some justifiable reasons to be angry. Who's going to 'help' him dismantle the resentment? Do you think punishment is the appropriate 'therapy'?
The house is on fire and the children are alone.
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I am his only step mom - his real mom passed away. Numerous people, including his own mother have tried to get to the bottom of this. He was adopted by my husband when his mom was dying and he had no legal relatives that wanted to take him in.
The funny part is my husband adopted him to protect him from the very place he is now DCF custody.
As is typical people assume his anger just recently started... how do you explain these dangerous outbursts at three, four and five ?
When his mom was alive, home with him and he was in a very loving environment ?
Again I ask you what has worked for your child ? You seem to only want to insult other parents choices. As I said earlier this decision was made on the advice of alot of professionals who knew this child very well.
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Stepmom, this is not a board to find support or rational discussion of programs. The kids on this board are anti-program and think all parents who send their kids to a program are horrible people. I suggest you go to strugglingteens.com for support and better information.
These are bitter, angry young people who don't have a clue how hard it is to live with an angry, violent teenager.
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Thank you ... I get so aggrivated at the "blame the parents" group
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On 2005-08-08 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Stepmom, this is not a board to find support or rational discussion of programs. The kids on this board are anti-program and think all parents who send their kids to a program are horrible people. I suggest you go to strugglingteens.com for support and better information.
These are bitter, angry young people who don't have a clue how hard it is to live with an angry, violent teenager."
Strugglingteens.com is a hategroup of parents who enjoy knowing their children are suffering, and who pay a great deal of money to make sure their kids are suffering. They don't say that out loud, of course. They call it "help" and "therapy" and "emotional growth" and all those other nice buzzwords the troubled parent industry has developed.
Yes, people who send their kids to programs are horrible people. Why are you paying some program to raise your child for you? Why are you dumping their kid at the slightest sign of trouble? Why aren't you sticking by your child, as a parent should? Why are you placing him in a dangerous, possibly abusive environment-- and paying for it?
Be a parent. Raise your child. Don't pay someone else to do that for you.
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On 2005-08-08 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Stepmom, this is not a board to find support or rational discussion of programs. The kids on this board are anti-program and think all parents who send their kids to a program are horrible people. I suggest you go to strugglingteens.com for support and better information.
These are bitter, angry young people who don't have a clue how hard it is to live with an angry, violent teenager."
You have no idea what its like to live with an angry, violent set of parents who dont give a damn about you and would rather get you out of their hair than do anything else.
You also have no idea what its like to live with reactionary, fearful idiots who bought into some program, Dr. Phil, or whatever, and you dont agree with the bullshit forced upon you just becuase youre "the child" and they are "the parents".
You also have no idea what its like to be abused, beg for help, and have them side with a program and not listen to you. You have no idea what its like to be betrayed and trapped and forced into suffering and told that youre wrong, theyre right, and the only way to be free again is to act like theyre right and change yourself to fit their mold.
You dont know this becuase you cant dare criticise yourself. You cant think of anyone being at fault except the child. You cant deal with the fact that parents and programs fuck up, because they are and are ran by people, respectively.
BTW, just so you know, there are plenty of parents with teenagers on this forum. Like, say, Antigen, whose not only a survivor of Straight from the 80s, but also the parent of 3 lovely daugthers, one of whom is older than me. She went through the terrible teens with her oldest, but guess what? Theyre BOTH fine, arent in debt, and didnt involve coersive bullshit to get through it. It took some PARENTING and just letting the kid grow up.
But hey, engage in hyperbole and pidgeonhole everything, and everyone, into set roles. Programs have all the answers, the parent is the victim,
the child is wrong, and the people who say anything otherwise are bitter liars!
Youre not impressing anyone except others just like yourself. People who arent indoctrinated into this nonsense can see for themselves. You simply can't handle the truth unless it matches up with your damn mindset and worldview. You cant handle anything except what I said above - the program is right, you are the victim, the kid is wrong, and theyre necessary for children with problems, despite the fact that in a nation of over 270 million americans, only ~~15K children are in a program at any given time and do JUST FINE WITHOUT IT The legislature is to society as a physician is to the patient. If a physician ignored side effects of medications like today's legislators ignore the side effects of their legislation, the physician would be accused of malpractice. I accuse today's legislators (with rare exception) of legislative malpractice. Many of the ills that are so obvious in our society are a direct result of previous legislation. Their solution? More laws!
-- John A. Bennett, DO
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Stepmom- don't listen to that crap. I'm sure you abandoned your stepson at the slightest hint of trouble!! Strugglingteens is a group of mature parents who agonized over every step of the placement process and who love their kids very much. There are many success stories and lots of experience, strength and hope.
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Get over the pity partying and the victim-mindest.
And please, stop spewing the happy love-dovey hippy newagey feel-good program speak. When nothing but feelings and adjectives and verbs come out of your mouth, with no specifics about how a program is even supposed to fix or help the kid at all, just vagueness and more 'emotional growth' smoke and mirrors, you're not impressing anyone. God is the...refuge of the incompetent, the helpless, the miserable. They find no sanctuary in His arms, but...a kind of superiority, soothing to their...egos: He will set them above their betters.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
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Sounds like you need some serious counsling yourself. Despite what anyone says on this or any other message board ... we know that we did the absoulte best thing for our son.
I actually posted this morning to let any other parents know they are not alone. Believe me my husband and I have come up against your kind so many times it does not even affect us. Clearly anyone who has walked this walk understands.
To any parent struggling with this - please don't listen to these uneducated people, you are not alone, crazy or bad parents.
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Wow, more ad hominem bullcrap! For those who dont know what it means, here ya go: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... minem.html (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html)
For those unwilling to click, heres the abridged version of it:
1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.
The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
Now that you learned how to debate, lets get down to business.
You give no details, and no specifics. Perfectly valid criticisms and grievances are ignored and discredited instead of addressed. Clinging to "we did the right thing" and not even stopping to analyze the facts (if you even know all of them) does not give a very positive impression of yourself. It gives off the impression that youd rather be right, than admit you made a mistake. This is extremely hypocritical when the basis of what a child in a program goes through is being forced to admit theyre wrong and make things right.
Then, you make further attacks against me or "my kind" instead of simply addressing the issues brought up! You simply fall back on the only way to know anything about it is to have experienced it yourself, which is a commonly used arguement to defend programs and/or the seminars they employ.
Then, you go with MORE victim-mindset defensiveness, about struggling parents, and then make another ad hominem attack on us, and THEN throw in a strawman for good measure, as if we're calling all of them "alone, crazy or bad parents".
Our grievances, to repeat and collect it in one place for convenience, is that the programs are secretive, vague, and extremely nonspecific. That most parents have no idea of what goes on with their children. That communication is controlled, censored, or simply cut off, and that if it is allowed that the parent is told that the child will lie to get out, period. That is suspicious and implies they have something to hide!
None of the supporting parents seem to be able to explain how the program works and/or how the changes that happened were brought about to their children and themselves. The only thing said is that the emotional experience of a seminar is profound for a parent, more profound for a child, that you have to go in it to understand it, and that you are reccomended to go through one.
Based on what facts HAVE come out of them, they appear to be a mirror of the sort of seminar that Lifespring, EST, SEED/Straight and Synannon used decades ago. The crux of how they work is instigating emotional breakdowns, also known as psychological regression, via stressing the preson with social pressure, humiliation, bringing out past suffering and then making them disclose and share and live-through such past suffering to the group, and various sorts of games and tricks called "processes" that amount to what is colloquially known as a "mind game".
So, while you can continue to make emotional appeals, ad hominem attacks upon me, other individuals, or the group that you perceive fornits to be, Ive laid it out here as clearly as I can. Your continued antics instead of simply addressing what we have to say dont make you look very good. Even if its a lost cause to get through to you, people who havent yet been indoctrinated into this will see what is going on and avoid it or pull out their child before its too late.
And yes, it has happened. And it will continue to happen as long as I live and this problem exists, which will probably be until long after I die.
People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security.
--Benjamin Franklin
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If you really believed you did "the right thing", then why are you here?
If you want to talk to people who have been through this already, well, thats what we are here for.
10 or 12 years ago, my parents thought I was "out of control". They sent me to Provo Canyon School and left me there for a year and a half.
Seems that they were the one who were "out of control", though.
While in PCS, I was mistreated (to say the very very least). When I first left there, I didn't realize just how badly I had been mistreated. (though I did have the beginning symptoms of PTSD).
When I went to college, and started studying psychology and sociology, and went to nursing school, and learned about "theraputic relationships" and different types of therapy and schools of psychological thought, and everything else they teach in these classes... I saw then just how fucked up Provo Canyon School was. It was non-supportive, non-theraputic, and punitive, and the staff were not qualified, not licensed, not college educated, and therefor cannot be held "professionally accountable" for the dysfunctional relationships they have with the students there, nor for the abuse which they inflict upon them (which stems not only from the staff being mean-spirited, but also from their educational ignorance).
I am 26 years old now, still dealing with PTSD and coming to terms with my experience at PCS. My mother regrets ever sending me there, and I also wish I had never been sent there.
And thats my professional opinion.
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On 2005-08-08 14:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sounds like you need some serious counsling yourself. Despite what anyone says on this or any other message board ... we know that we did the absoulte best thing for our son.
I actually posted this morning to let any other parents know they are not alone. Believe me my husband and I have come up against your kind so many times it does not even affect us. Clearly anyone who has walked this walk understands.
To any parent struggling with this - please don't listen to these uneducated people, you are not alone, crazy or bad parents."
Hold on there ... uneducated people?
I beg to differ! Fornits posters/members are some of the most educated, experienced, and compassionate people you will ever find on a bulletin board.
Most have been through a program and can tell you the good, the bad and the ugly.
Many are married, with families of their own.
It's true there is not a lot of sympathy (or empathy) for "program parents" who come here to boast/brag about their program of choice and how it is working to give them back the son or daughter they once knew.
Quite frankly, we know better and wish for the sake of your children, you did too.
Perhaps one day you will ... and if you are really lucky, your child will forgive you.
:smokin:
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What you need to start doing is spelling out whats so bad about "giving back the child they once knew" and that their child is entrapped in a program.
I might not carry that much weight being 20, single, and not having ever been in a program proper, but I at least have a perspective as a young person whose not too far removed from the sort of coersion and issues that children and teenagers have to deal with growing up running a gauntlet of authoritarian assholes, and I have compassion and intellect.
Besides, why not try to promote freedom and justice? Hell, I coulda been one of those program victims! :scared: Our country has deliberately undertaken a great social and economic experimanet, noble in motive and far-reaching in purpose. [The Eighteenth Amendment, enacting Prohibition.]
Letter to Senator W.H. Borah
--Herbert Hoover (Feb 28, 1928)
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On 2005-08-08 15:05:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"What you need to start doing is spelling out whats so bad about "giving back the child they once knew" and that their child is entrapped in a program.
I might not carry that much weight being 20, single, and not having ever been in a program proper, but I at least have a perspective as a young person whose not too far removed from the sort of coersion and issues that children and teenagers have to deal with growing up running a gauntlet of authoritarian assholes, and I have compassion and intellect.
Besides, why not try to promote freedom and justice? Hell, I coulda been one of those program victims! :smokin:
And yeah,
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What's bad about "getting back the child they once knew" is that by putting their kid in a behavior controlling/changing program, they are altering the very identity of their own kid.
They are "engineering" a parentally correct kid.
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but it's a double-edged sword, because they are also teaching the kids how to appease. If the child is smart enough, he will learn what words to say, what faces to make, and basically how to emulate the high-status kids in the program, whether he buys into it or not.
Now, when he gets to go home, he goes back to his parents who he's known longer than the program, and he knows their personalities and expectations a lot better than he did the program's, and let me tell you, it'll be a breeze for him to appease his parents and make them think everything's fine and dandy. He'll be that much better at sneaking out and =not= getting caught, doing drugs and hiding the tract marks, breaking the law and keeping his hands clean.
Programs are probably some of the best criminal training schools out there because not only do the kids gets to meet a whole bunch of other delinquent kids with stories to share (how to make meth, crack, absinthe, thermite, soda bottle bombs, you name it, the best ways to cut on yourself, the best way to shoot up, how to cotton ball, best ways to fuck, how to kill a guy with whatever fill-in-the-blank everyday object) they also learn how to walk the walk and talk the talk so that no one will ever suspect them of anything criminal. Send a kid to wilderness program, and you also teach them how to live off the lam while they evade the law. Do parents ever stop to think about this?
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***Again I ask you what has worked for your child ?
I've answered that question many times here. Do a search if you're genuinely interested. But, in a word.... Respect.
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On 2005-08-08 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am his only step mom - his real mom passed away. Numerous people, including his own mother have tried to get to the bottom of this. He was adopted by my husband when his mom was dying and he had no legal relatives that wanted to take him in.
The funny part is my husband adopted him to protect him from the very place he is now DCF custody.
As is typical people assume his anger just recently started... how do you explain these dangerous outbursts at three, four and five ?
When his mom was alive, home with him and he was in a very loving environment ?
Again I ask you what has worked for your child ? You seem to only want to insult other parents choices. As I said earlier this decision was made on the advice of alot of professionals who knew this child very well. "
I'm coming in on this one late, but from what I have read, it sounds like this boy's case is extreme. The Brat Camp kids are not nearly as dangerous or as difficult.
In fact, your step-son's case seems so extreme that it begs the question as to whether there is a real mental illness or neurological disorder involved. From your accounts, this is not a case of a kid just acting out due to anger or a chldhood trauma. Have actual MRI's been performed? Were neurologists and psychiatrists involved or just psychologists?
If the boy's problems are as instense as described, they are clearly beyond the scope of just therapy or a program. Even the programs (both the schools and wilderness) usually say that an extremely violent teenager is not a candidate and will not be accepted.
I would suggest that something like a state mental hospital should make a diagnosis.
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Yes, there is a whole list of things that should be checked.
And then, it could be a simple matter of poor parenting. When you're afraid of a three year old, some red flags should be going up.
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Actually, Niles, I consider being single to be a sign that you ARE healthy and credible and smart and responsible. (at least at our ages). Versus getting married to the first person who comes along.
He/She who marries last wins.
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Im 46 and I couldnt agree more.
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The REAL STRUGGLING TURKEYS WEBSITE
http://www.geocities.com/strugglingturk ... asses.html (http://www.geocities.com/strugglingturkeys/dumbasses.html)
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i was just reading through the web site to review individual feed back,
it is funny that soo many people still bitch about stuff from the past.
the past is the past and leave the anger behind, i attended a program with the same concepts (almost the exact schedule and names i.e. house in the dining room), however it was a 2 1/2 year program not a couple of months. these programs are NOT designed for youth to enjoy them...this is the whole point of the therapy....WORK ON YOUR SHIT, THEN YOU CAN GO BACK INTO SOCIETY.
and to the parents who read these sites, of course (some of these) youth are going to make their experience seem over the top, however you need to take into consideration, most of these youth are sent there for these same reasons...BEING MANPUILATIVE and GETTING WHAT THEY WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
after going through a very intense 2 1/2 year program myself at the young age of 14, damn right i would send my child there if they were in need.
however...you can only help thoes who want to be helped
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On 2005-08-12 20:14:00, murley wrote:
"i was just reading through the web site to review individual feed back,
it is funny that soo many people still bitch about stuff from the past.
the past is the past and leave the anger behind, i attended a program with the same concepts (almost the exact schedule and names i.e. house in the dining room), however it was a 2 1/2 year program not a couple of months. these programs are NOT designed for youth to enjoy them...this is the whole point of the therapy....WORK ON YOUR SHIT, THEN YOU CAN GO BACK INTO SOCIETY.
and to the parents who read these sites, of course (some of these) youth are going to make their experience seem over the top, however you need to take into consideration, most of these youth are sent there for these same reasons...BEING MANPUILATIVE and GETTING WHAT THEY WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
after going through a very intense 2 1/2 year program myself at the young age of 14, damn right i would send my child there if they were in need.
however...you can only help thoes who want to be helped"
It took you 2 1/2 years to get over being manipulative? Congrats.
Being manipulative is not a valid reason to be incarcerated. It is a valid reason for parents to look at how stupid they must be for allowing themselves to be manipulated by a kid.
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On 2005-08-12 20:14:00, murley wrote:
BEING MANPUILATIVE and GETTING WHAT THEY WANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Another status offense. Adults who manipulate to get what they want are called "successful" or "diplomatic" or "clever" or "management material".
You say there is but one way to worship the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
--Chief Red Jacket, Seneca Indian Chieftain
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Adults who manipulate to get what they want are called manipulative, just as kids are. Manipulation is an abuse of trust. I'm sure all of you on this board would be such wonderful parents (not that many of you have actually had that experience) that you would NEVER be manipulated by your child and would NEVER believe his or her lies. Sorry the rest of us are such sub-par parents.
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On 2005-08-13 11:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Adults who manipulate to get what they want are called manipulative, just as kids are. Manipulation is an abuse of trust. I'm sure all of you on this board would be such wonderful parents (not that many of you have actually had that experience) that you would NEVER be manipulated by your child and would NEVER believe his or her lies. Sorry the rest of us are such sub-par parents."
Poor me...poor, poor me...sniffle...
I'm so sorry I can't live up to the expectations of a bunch of anonymous strangers on a message board... ::boohoo::
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Bandit1978 said ----"He/She who marries last wins."
I hope your right about that! And I agree, it is foolish to marry the first thing that comes along or before being ready for it.
TSW, I have you beat...I'm over 30 :exclaim: :grin: ...although I cant say I blame men for being so skittish...lots of scary women (and men for that matter) out there!
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I have a kid who's legal to drink and two more coming right up behind her at 5 and 7 year intervals. All girls. Don't step to me tryin' ta' tell me about kids! LOL
What's a politician or a salesman or a manager if not someone who's adept at manipulating voters, customers or employees?
All effective advertising is blatant manipulation. We suspend disbelief and agree to the manipulation (most do, anyway, some I suppose actually believe). But it's manipulation all the same. When kids do it, some people view that as a character flaw. When adults do it, we give them career advancement and a pay raise.
Fear is the parent of cruelty, therefore it is no wonder if religion and cruelty have gone hand-in-hand.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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There is a line between selling, stating a persuasive case, debating versus manipulating.
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On 2005-08-13 11:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Adults who manipulate to get what they want are called manipulative, just as kids are. Manipulation is an abuse of trust. I'm sure all of you on this board would be such wonderful parents (not that many of you have actually had that experience) that you would NEVER be manipulated by your child and would NEVER believe his or her lies. Sorry the rest of us are such sub-par parents."
I think you misunderstood my post. I was alluding to the constantly promoted idea that sending kids into a program is a last resort. If a kid is only guilty of being manipulative, that does not seem reason enough to send him to a program.
The original post stated something to the effect that all the kids who are sent into programs are sent there because they are manipulative. I view that as a false generalization. Kids are sent to these programs for many different reasons and often the program is not the last resort.
The word, manipulative, is a frequent used buzz-word among programs. It is used in a very dangerous way. If the student writes home about how horrible the program is, the program informs the parents that the child is just being manipulative. While plausible, it is also possible that the student is telling the truth. How would the parents know? That uncertainty is a good reason not to isolate the student from the parents. The parents have a responsibility to know what is going on.
FYI, I am a parent.
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On 2005-08-13 15:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There is a line between selling, stating a persuasive case, debating versus manipulating. "
I disagree. Anyone who has purchased a new car can tell you that there is no line between selling and manipulating. Unless you mean something different by selling than what I mean by that word. I have found all sorts of salespeople to be manipulative.
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it's funny, that people who expect to be manipulated are the ones that always have to deal with it.
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Indeed, those apples don't fall far from the tree. Parents expect it because they taught it.
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And, my brilliant Deborah, are you contending that these troubled teens are manipulative solely because their parents have taught them to be so?
You really have a high opinion of parents, don't you?
You are such an angry bitch.
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Another saying I like;
Ain't that the pot callin the kettle black.
Yeh, parents/guardians are pretty much responsible for teaching their kids to manipulate. Along with other adult figures. And let's not forget TV. Manipulation is rampant. What is manipulation, but a lie?
Did you ever 'reward' your child for completing tasks? Or bribe?
Did you ever 'redirect' (distract) your child rather than using the situation as an opportunity to teach?
Did you ever make consequences so unreasonable that your child felt s/he had to lie?
Did you ever send your kid to a program without telling them them where they were going and what they might expect?
All forms of manipulation- lying.
Kids pick it up early, sometimes before they're a year old, and then perfect it as they get older.
The thing you should be grateful for is that you are not subject to being illegally incarcerated for your own.
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Thats what life is guys, manipulation, trying to get what you want. Its in the office, its in the army, its in polotics, its even in churchs. Manipulation is a way to surivive, some times better than if you work hard. Look at it that way. A parent should not send a child into a program just because the child is smarter than the parent and can manipulate the parent, thats just vengful and foolish.
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Overloard's My Hero "Alegendary man with superhuman powers." My Hero..sigh...... :nworthy:
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Haha, thanks, even though I mispelled every other word, thanks.
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No good spelling required just a warm soul. ::blushing::
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haha
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I love fornits.
Karen
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You better! haha
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I haven't got time to read through the whole thread, and I know the conversation has kind of drifted away from the original post, but watching the episode of Brat Camp that I saw, I had a question for the ex-SageWalkers out there about the morning 5 minute time limit.
Since you'd end up back in your sleeping bags if you screwed up, wouldn't it be better to just not get up when you are supposed to, and get that extra 5 to 10 minutes of sleep anyway, and then get up on the third or fourth go round?
I guess they'd probably punish you, though.
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they dont give you spice for your food or something, and unless the entire group agrees, every one gets pissed off.
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On 2005-08-22 19:39:00, OverLordd wrote:
"they dont give you spice for your food or something, and unless the entire group agrees, every one gets pissed off."
But what if the entire group decides to stay in bed?
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I have no fucking clue, honestly, but cordination like that would be very rare, because by the time some one has thought of that then 2 or 3 have been broken all ready. The entire industry takes some form of compliance and peer presure, I mean really, if some one sent a team in that was made to cause trouble at these places, it could be caused. The kids have to do it, the councilers are just telling what to do.[ This Message was edited by: OverLordd on 2005-08-22 19:46 ]
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At SUWS, if you chose to not get up, that was your choice. The natural consequences of the choice might be being bored with not doing anything, being yelled at by your peers, having to do a journal assignment about your behavior, having to explain and justify your decision. I didnt really care whether you got up or not. I had paperwork to catch up on and I could always do some reading. So if a whole group decided not to get up (which would require forethought and organizing) I would be fine with it. But the other students probably would not be. If the group decided to not get up I would probably compliment someone on their organization and leadership skills; its not easy to get everyone on the same page.
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indeed, did you ever see it done?
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Nope, never seen it happen. Like I stated, it takes forethought and organization.
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And the kids are not given a chance to do that?
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Of course they were. I have no reason to deny someone the opportunity to use forethought or be organized. Those are two valuable skills I'd like to see practiced more often.
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::shrugs:: hey sorry, dont mean to offend. I dont know if you keep them busy at all time, or dont let them talk or what not, as some programs do. Sorry, I just did not know.
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Im not offended. Students have a full day, when living outside there is never a lack of things to do and tasks that need completing. I dont allow students to have private one on one talks. I dont think any wilderness program allows that. If you cant say something in front of the group then it probably doesnt need to be said. This policy is for the safety of students and instructors. So I guess if students want to plot and scheme amongst themselves they have to be creative. But if a student dislikes being there that much Id rather they had a plan and followed through instead of inflicting themselves on me.
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But.....
On 2005-08-23 16:55:00, Shortbus wrote:
"Of course they were. I have no reason to deny someone the opportunity to use forethought or be organized. Those are two valuable skills I'd like to see practiced more often."
Which is it?G: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
EB: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
-- Somewhere in No Man's Land, BA4
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Good point, I think I know what youre getting at.... Im pretty open with my students and I tell them up front that Ill respect their decision to take off but I want to make sure they are safe. That means having a plan and being prepared. They just arent going to have much opportunity to go behind my back and plan. If Im in the mix more than they like thats just too bad since its my show! No different than homelife. I keep my students busy and I spend a lot of time actively engaged with them. I dont like surprises when Im responsible for someone.
Thats a great quote attached to the above post!
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You are at a real disadvantage when placed in a program. You are up against a group of semi-intelligent adults, who have a LOT of experience at keeping young adults in line. They are great at using manipulation to control the situation.
They try mostly to use the other kids as leverage. If one, two, or several kids in the group are at a 'higher level' of achievement, they don't want to risk getting in trouble. Just like real life. New people are more than willing to misbehave, what do they have to lose? Kids who have been there for a long time and realize they aren't leaving until they comply, WILL keep the other kids in line.
Most places have rules against new kids talking to each other, allowing you to only talk to the high achievers or whatever they call them.
Brat camp is strange to me because it is mixed sexes, and the ages vary so widely. The place I was at was a lockdwon facility, so I would have loved to be out in the wilderness, and to have girls would have been a plus as well. I would have been more concerned with nailing one of them than running away.
The fact that you, a counselor, say you wouldn't stop a kid from running is hard to believe. AM I understanding that statement correctly? :wave:
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You are correct about the running. If a kid wants to run Im notgoing to restrain them. I have asked kids not to run at night because it was unsafe, to please wait until the morning. They agreed and thought things through and I suppose decided that maybe running wasnt the best idea. I tell kids to have a plan, to use some forethought. Why set yourself up for a life of running? So you run away from me, what comes next?
I had single sex groups and both sex groups. I had groups of twelve steppers. Every single group had kids from 14-17 years old, sometimes 18 too. After the first week kids were allowed to talk to one another but not unsupervised. eg. two kids werent allowed to go get water or firewood without an instructor with them. This policy protected both instructors and students. Another policy that was strongly enforced was that an instructor was never to be alone with a student. There was always to be another person present either student or instructor. Twosomes bad thressomes good. Individual instructors were never to have private conversations with students.
And programs are no different than jobs or school. If youre the new kid you look to the regulars to show you the ropes -whats ok, whats not ok. I tried to teach the kids that there were times when they would need to rely on someone else for help - just like life. And there would be times when you might need to help someone else out too. Just like life. I didnt pit kids against one another, but I did spend a lot of time trying to teach them to work together as a team.
And I agree, you are at a bit of a disadvantage when you wind up in a program. But then again, Ive dealt with some pretty awesome manipulators that had me tying myself in knots! Ill have to say that most of the kids Ive had in programs have been a helluva lot smarter than me.(and Im sure many are quick to add that I must be a dumbass for being a wilderness instructor.) And thats one of the reasons they wind up in a program - because theyre too damn smart for their own good. [ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-25 21:55 ]
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On 2005-08-25 21:53:00, Shortbus wrote:
And thats one of the reasons they wind up in a program - because theyre too damn smart for their own good.
I don't understand. How can you come right out and say it like that and say it like it's a good thing you're doing? Why not just routinely drop newborn babies on their heads to eliminate that smarts problem? Why not just feed them all a lot of alcohol? That'll make `em all stupid enough for ya', wouldn't it? :roll: If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs,
you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors,
shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general
nature, in spite of individual exceptions.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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I try to not attach a judgement good or bad to my posts. I am describing the job. I never said what I did was "good" or "bad". My comment about smart kids isnt necessarily something with which I agree, its something Ive heard parents and therapists say. Does this help clarify. And why respond with something foolish like shaken baby and fetal alcohol syndrome? I guess I dont understand your point.
_________________
Its never too late to procrastinate[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-26 05:06 ]
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People are judged for what they say, you will be judged and I will be judged, when you tell us what something is about, or what happend, or what you did you will be judged for it. You were in a place to change what was happening, so you will be judged. Plus, if I shoot off my mouth I get judged, so does every one, if you dont wanna get judged dont say it.
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How do you know I didnt change things while I was there? Immediately judging people... where does that get you? So I guess Ill judge you as a...
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I think it sounds like you know what you are doing, Shortbus. Most of these kids ARE very smart- that is one thing that leads to defiance and total disregard for authority. You did your job and helped them.
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OMG! Has it occured to you folks that maybe the smart kids are onto something? Maybe they rebel and dissent BECAUSE they're smart enough to see through the bullshit? Do you think that, quite possibly, breaking the smart ones is not the best way to address the conflict? Maybe, just maybe, we should do something about the overwhelming mountains of bullshit we're trying to get these kids to swollow?
God damn! It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson
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Yeah, the smart kids are onto something, Ginger. That's why they were stealing cars, doing drugs, blowing off their educations. Can't understand why we would want to redirect their efforts.
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On 2005-08-25 21:53:00, Shortbus wrote:
And programs are no different than jobs or school. If youre the new kid you look to the regulars to show you the ropes -whats ok, whats not ok.
I have never had, and would never accept, a job where I was forbidden to speak freely w/ other new employees. Have you?The law in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread - the rich as well as the poor
--Anatole France
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On 2005-08-26 09:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah, the smart kids are onto something, Ginger. That's why they were stealing cars, doing drugs, blowing off their educations. Can't understand why we would want to redirect their efforts. "
The simple fact you generalize tens of thousands of teens shows your idiocy. You are gravely uninformed, and obvious unexperienced. Your hate for yourself shows quite clear, however.
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On 2005-08-26 08:39:00, Antigen wrote:
"OMG! Has it occured to you folks that maybe the smart kids are onto something? Maybe they rebel and dissent BECAUSE they're smart enough to see through the bullshit? Do you think that, quite possibly, breaking the smart ones is not the best way to address the conflict? Maybe, just maybe, we should do something about the overwhelming mountains of bullshit we're trying to get these kids to swollow?
God damn! It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.
Thomas Jefferson
"
I couldn't agree more. These people applaud themselves for punishing kids for being smart. :roll: Insanity.
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On 2005-08-26 09:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah, the smart kids are onto something, Ginger. That's why they were stealing cars, doing drugs, blowing off their educations. Can't understand why we would want to redirect their efforts. "
Ya' know, when I first got married, my husband and I used to have to put up w/ a whole lot of bullshit from the grandparents. "Why don't you get a real job like grandpa at HP"? and "You should go back to school, get a degree and a career!" Never mind that career jobs were already a relic of the `50's by then. Dear old gramps just followed orders and punched a clock for 20 years. He never did anything spectacular to earn his cozy retirement. He was just in the right place at the right time for a self rightious near idiot to succeed.
Maybe you haven't noticed all the diploma holding hash slingers? And those are the lucky ones. The fact is that a diploma and $3 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. The kids are right. They're teaching nothing but bullshit in school. Blowing off bullshit is not really a sign of dysfunction in kids. Judging by the sheer numbers of drop outs and chronic truants, I'd say it's more like a spontanious and sustained referendum on the school system.
Are you starting to get the drift? I don't believe for a minute that even a supstantial minority, let alone a mojority of kids in private prisons were stealing cars. The national stats on car theft would show it and they don't.
Finally, I completely understand why you'd want to strong arm your kid to do what you think they should do, regardless of the harm done to the kid in the process. You're a frightened idiot who has no faith in your kid. Pretty simple.
He who will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not is a slave.
--Author: Sir William Drummond
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Many of these kids came from excellent private schools where the faculty was strong and the educational opportunities were top-notch. The kids, by their own admission (later) were throwing away promising futures. They were stealing cars- maybe the family's car-but taking cars without permission and without licenses in some cases. They were using and/or selling alcohol and drugs. They were violent towards family members. Gee-why would we lose faith in our kids?
Fast forward to post-program. Kid is back in a top high school and will head to a top college. Kid has matured. Kid treats family members with the expected amount of respect an 18 or 19 year old would show a parent (not a whole lot, but some). Kid is responsible about cars and activities. Kid has learned how to have healthier relationshps with friends and members of the opposite sex. Kid has better things to do than hang around on a website like this complaining about the program that kid knows saved his life.
Ginger- quit with the personal attacks. It gets old.
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On 2005-08-26 10:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
The kids, by their own admission (later) were throwing away promising futures.
Confessions obtained under the kind of durress used in these programs are inadmissible in our criminal and civil courts. And the whole world is currently debating whether or not they're really warranted or useful in the war on terrorism. That's because people will say anything you want to hear, true or not, if you make them desperate enough.
The scenario you paint of successfull program graduates is a sad joke. Where are all these successful graduates? Aside from the PTSD symptoms and unusually difficult problems w/ families of origin, what's the real difference between program graduates and their peers who are allowed to just grow up? In my experience, nothing. Oh yeah, they all got to go to prom while we sat in a warehouse crying crocodile tears over false confessions, praying to get out soon.
As for personal attacks, well you reign supreme w/ your rude and unwarranted smears of an entire generation. I know you don't intend it that way, you're used to it, "a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong", as it were. But just go and read over some of the horrible insults against these kids that you toss around so lightly. Shit, at least I'm just commenting, conversing. There is no real threat behind my criticizm. I have neithre the power not the inclination to hire a couple of ex marines to kidnap you from your bed just because I think you're an asshole.
Put the shoe on the other foot for just a day. Walk a mile in my shoes. Till you do, you have no idea what you're talking about, far less any business acting on your delusions.
What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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Smearing an entire generation? I don't think so. I am commenting on what the kids in some of these programs have reported-in groups where I was present. There are many teens who manage to get through the tough years without the need for a residential program. However,there are some that need more therapeutic help and a safer, more controlled environment than can be provided at home.
As for the confessions- my kid never denied what he was doing. It wasn't a matter of confessing- it was pretty clear that he was doing these things. He will tell you today that he was not mature enough to handle the independence he insisted on having (and taking) for himself.
Ginger- we are truly sorry that you are bitter and angry and can't let go of your program experience. But that does not give you the right to put everyone else in the same boat.
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On 2005-08-26 10:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Many of these kids came from excellent private schools where the faculty was strong and the educational opportunities were top-notch. The kids, by their own admission (later) were throwing away promising futures. They were stealing cars- maybe the family's car-but taking cars without permission and without licenses in some cases. They were using and/or selling alcohol and drugs. They were violent towards family members. Gee-why would we lose faith in our kids?
Fast forward to post-program. Kid is back in a top high school and will head to a top college. Kid has matured. Kid treats family members with the expected amount of respect an 18 or 19 year old would show a parent (not a whole lot, but some). Kid is responsible about cars and activities. Kid has learned how to have healthier relationshps with friends and members of the opposite sex. Kid has better things to do than hang around on a website like this complaining about the program that kid knows saved his life.
Ginger- quit with the personal attacks. It gets old."
Who are you talking about? Your own kid? You?
Sounds like your spewing BULLSHIT.
'Kid'?
What program do you work for?
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But that does not give you the right to put everyone else in the same boat.
Talk about calling the kettle black!
What an idiot!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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On 2005-08-26 11:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
However,there are some that need more therapeutic help and a safer, more controlled environment than can be provided at home.
Rarely. More often, it's the parent (aka sucker) who needs the program. How in the world do you expect anyone to develop maturity w/o taking on more responsibility than they once did? Can you sit there, straight faced, and try to tell me that you never in your life bit off more than you could chew? What you've done here is 1) stolen the kid's thunder while eliminating valuable learning experiences and 2) put yourself between a bullet and a target. And it won't be long till you're pulling yourself away.A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
-- William James
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Anon said--------"Fast forward to post-program. Kid is back in a top high school and will head to a top college. Kid has matured. Kid treats family members with the expected amount of respect an 18 or 19 year old would show a parent (not a whole lot, but some). Kid is responsible about cars and activities. Kid has learned how to have healthier relationshps with friends and members of the opposite sex. Kid has better things to do than hang around on a website like this complaining about the program that kid knows saved his life."---------------
Yes, lets fast forward to the post progam experience :roll: ---excellent idea...kid has no ability to socialize in the real world, outside of the structured program...kid back in high school, now far behind academically because program interferes with education, kid has become more immature as a result of losing so much of his "normal" childhood formative years, kid has nothing to do with family for years....
.....kid now knows better than to respect adults who think they know more than children. Contrary to popular belief, adults are NOT automatically entitled to respect, respect must be earned in ALL cases. So, knowing this, kid has now learned to respect only those adults that are humble, can admit to making mistakes, can admit that they dont know it all, and know how to give kids a little credit when deserved, etc.
Kid goes completely crazy after so much time incarcerated in a program, becomes highly irresponsible, parties all the time, etc...all in an effort to regain their stolen childhood and to rebel against their unjust incarceration.
Kid's ability to interract normally within all relationships is drastically impaired as a result of program damage, including but not limited to, inability to trust others, and due to program induced PSSD/mental heath issues.
Kid now recognizes the importance of hanging around these boards to help stop program madness, and to help enlighten others as to the true horrors that await children subjected to progam dogma....
Kid justifiably vents anger and resentment over his/her unjust program incarceration....for kid knows he/she has ever right to vent....
Kid knows that program nearly destroyed his/her life, kid knows he/she will have to live with program damage for the rest of his/her life...kid knows that the only thing in the world that can "save" kid's lives, is to keep them as far away from these programs as possible....
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Actually, the program was quite strong academically and there was no set-backs in that area. Never was a social problem and there certainly is not post-program. There was plenty of interaction with peers at the program- most from similar backgrounds.
Kid was in program for 1 year- long enough to mature and learn to make better choices.
Do you really think that while kids are in these programs that the parents just enjoy a long vacation? A lot of therapeutic work is going on in the family- both in connection with the program and at home.
I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality.
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On 2005-08-26 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Actually, the program was quite strong academically and there was no set-backs in that area. Never was a social problem and there certainly is not post-program. There was plenty of interaction with peers at the program- most from similar backgrounds.
Kid was in program for 1 year- long enough to mature and learn to make better choices.
Do you really think that while kids are in these programs that the parents just enjoy a long vacation? A lot of therapeutic work is going on in the family- both in connection with the program and at home.
I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality. "
What program? Can you stop talking in generalities, you aren't making any sense. I didn't realize there was only ONE program experience available...?
Stop applying one standard. STOP. STOP IT NOW!
YES, some kids were sent for very devious motives, I know this because I was at a program and talked to many other kids. You live in fantasy land. You really do.
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On 2005-08-26 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality.
No, evidently you can't. But can you back that (rather insulting) claim w/ anything close to reality based reasoning. We have no grasp on the issue at all... except, of course, having lived it ourselves as clients, staff or parents.
You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot
easier.
--GW Büsh, Governor of Texas. Governing Magazine, 7/98
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Anon said -----"Actually, the program was quite strong academically and there was no set-backs in that area. Never was a social problem and there certainly is not post-program. There was plenty of interaction with peers at the program- most from similar backgrounds.
Kid was in program for 1 year- long enough to mature and learn to make better choices.
Do you really think that while kids are in these programs that the parents just enjoy a long vacation? A lot of therapeutic work is going on in the family- both in connection with the program and at home.
I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality."-------
No grasp of reality???????????????? :flame: Spare me..... :roll: I think spending 20 months involved in a progam gives me a DAMN GOOD sense of PROGRAM REALITY..........
Every word I just said IS a very common, severely negative consequence of a program...........
Quite strong academically???? GIVE DETAILS!!!! Do you by chance have documented independent studies to verify that there are no educational setbacks?????????? I sure as hell was set back academically!
Please explain how interracting in a progam teaches children how to interract in the REAL WORLD!!!!.....for the real world is NOT remotely similar to a program's artifical structure....
In my program experience...I was forced to comply, under coercion, without asking questions....choices were NEVER permitted!!!! Exactly how does this teach a child how to make good decisions?
As for maturity....a program's artifical atmosphere combined with mind control does nothing to aid in a child's growth and maturity.
Oh...my parents were not on "vacation" when I was in a program...they were subjected to mind control techniques to a certan extent as well.
For all those innocent parents who stumble onto this forum...I hope it is quite clear that there are DAMN GOOD and JUSTIFIED reasons for the anger kids/parents/former employees/others have toward these programs, and the criticisms of programs ARE documented in a variety of sources, both from personal testimonies and from credible professionals....please come to your OWN independent conclusions...
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On 2005-08-26 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Actually, the program was quite strong academically and there was no set-backs in that area. Never was a social problem and there certainly is not post-program. There was plenty of interaction with peers at the program- most from similar backgrounds.
Kid was in program for 1 year- long enough to mature and learn to make better choices.
Do you really think that while kids are in these programs that the parents just enjoy a long vacation? A lot of therapeutic work is going on in the family- both in connection with the program and at home.
I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality. "
Poster, you are off the deep end. You will defend your precious program® to the death it would seem. Why don't you talk about the program your child was in. Sounds an awful lot like another friend of ours, Karen.
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It seems like the kids were going to be set back academically by the fact that when they were home they weren't going to school or were kicked out of school. A good EG program gets the kids back on track academically.
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I can admit that I skipped school on a few rare occasions....but that was corrected by the school principal's rapid intervention...then it never happened again...I chalk that up as a normal teeneager pushing the limits to see what he/she can get away with rather than problematic behavior that set me back acedmically.... And this occurred long before my incarceration in a program.
I can assure you in my case, with the exception noted above, I attended classes regularly, in fact I was well known for having perfect attendance year in year out.
So, academically, I was in a college prep curriculum, and usually got B's and C's....then the program came along and I missed an entire quarter of school with no academic instruction whatsoever...when allowed to return to school, the late night/early morning schedule left little time for homework....in fact, being in group and "applying the program" were considered top priority----school was just something you could squeeze in during freetime...as long as group responsibilities came first....
During the program....my grades declined.....to primarily C's D's and even one F. So thanks to the program....I gaduated with around a 2.2 GPA and could not get into any normal college....when I finally decided to go to college that is...I was forced to work my way up from the community college, prove myself, then I was admitted to a regular 4 year program.....
Oh and by the way, my pre-program grades could have been better if I actually read a textbook...I had undiagnosed ADD so couldnt get through a page. If programs are so interested in supporting academic success....tell me how someting so important can go completely unaddressed?
So, although my experience may differ from others, I have heard other accounts of similar academic set backs....
So, to summarize, I was attending classes regularly, not even close to even being kicked for any reason whatsoever, and the program was NOT interested in getting us back on track academically.
Would anyone else like to attest to how programs can actually set kids back academically? I'm sure Anon would be extremely interested in other input!
Anon....you didnt answer any of my questions by the way......
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There was a full school day at my son's program. AP courses were offered along with 4 foreign languages. There is documentation on the top colleges the kids who finished high school at the program went on to attend. Many of the kids at the program felt that the academics were TOO challenging. My son thought they were easy since he had been an A student at a top prep school (until he was kicked out). He became a strong reader while he was at his program- he read Shakespeare, philosophy- anything he could get his hands on from the school's library and what he asked us to send. It was one of his academic teachers at his program who suggested that he apply to elite boarding schools to continue his education. My son did not complete the EG program. He left to continue his education elsewhere. He didn't miss a beat academically. He is at the top of his class and heading for one of the top universities in the country next year.
Obviously there are many different types of EG programs. In our case it was imperative that the program had strong academics. It was also imperative that the counseling staff be good.
Do you not understand that for many families having the kid remain in the home is simply not an option? When the kid is violent and dangerous to himself and others and is truly ruining his or her life, a program is the only chance. Perhaps many of you were placed in bad programs. That does not mean that there are not good ones out there.
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Pre-program my son was an A/B student. Well liked by his teachers and kids of all ages. Came home from the high-dollar EG program five credits behind his peers.
Pre-program he was also a very talented athlete- a natural at soccer and baseball. Usually the top player on the team. No longer plays sports.
Pre-program he loved to play games, a favorite activity in our family. No longer.
Pre-program he had a twinkle in his eye, was playful and had a great sense of humor. No longer. He seems guarded, serious, still largerly acting the role they assigned him.
Pre-program he was very helpful when there was work to be done. No longer. His enthusiasm is deminished. It appears that it's hard for him to feel like he's part of the group. He doesn't speak up and let his voice be heard. Just kinda lethargic, goes along, or splits and does his own thing (isolates). My sense is that there is still a feeling of deprivation he's trying to compensate for, rightfully so. As well as an avoidance of taking risks and at all costs, avoids conflict.
Pre-program he possessed confidence and felt relative safety and ease in the world. No longer. While he appears fine on the surface- has friends and is well liked- I see the insecurity.
Could be that the 'effect' is different with kids who were raised in respectful, democratic homes. He felt like he'd been sent to hell, and in fact, he had been. They whittled him down to just an average kid. My friend, a PhD child psychologist saw him on break and told me to get him out of the program. They were destoying him.
There are moments when I see MY son, and that gives me hope that the programming will eventually wear off.
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On 2005-08-26 16:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There was a full school day at my son's program. AP courses were offered along with 4 foreign languages. There is documentation on the top colleges the kids who finished high school at the program went on to attend. Many of the kids at the program felt that the academics were TOO challenging. My son thought they were easy since he had been an A student at a top prep school (until he was kicked out). He became a strong reader while he was at his program- he read Shakespeare, philosophy- anything he could get his hands on from the school's library and what he asked us to send. It was one of his academic teachers at his program who suggested that he apply to elite boarding schools to continue his education. My son did not complete the EG program. He left to continue his education elsewhere. He didn't miss a beat academically. He is at the top of his class and heading for one of the top universities in the country next year.
Obviously there are many different types of EG programs. In our case it was imperative that the program had strong academics. It was also imperative that the counseling staff be good.
Do you not understand that for many families having the kid remain in the home is simply not an option? When the kid is violent and dangerous to himself and others and is truly ruining his or her life, a program is the only chance. Perhaps many of you were placed in bad programs. That does not mean that there are not good ones out there.
"
Again, what program?
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Wonder if it ever occurred to you that this may be because you are (obviously--given your massive number of posts and their contents) on your own little crusade against the type of program he was in, as I understand it, against your will. That is, grounded in your own parental justification---and your current parental rage.
Wonder if it is time to step up to the plate and give up the black and white thinking--and talk to him about the bad AND the good of what he has experienced.
So what if he got put into this program against your will---fuck your will or lack of it---maybe it's time to hear about, really hear about all that this experience meant to him, helpful or not, instead (and don't bull shit me, I've got a pretty good idea of the family dynamics here) of requiring and expecting him to be a loyal foot soldier in your own war against therapeutic boarding schools.
The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.
Go on--take a chance, talk to him about the good and the bad of his life at the school he attended---if he can talk without feeling that he is betraying his really injured activist mother, you guys might have a real conversation, you never know!!
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Wonder if it ever occurred to you that this may be because you are (obviously--given your massive number of posts and their contents) on your own little crusade against the type of program he was in, as I understand it, against your will. That is, grounded in your own parental justification---and your current parental rage.
Wonder if it is time to step up to the plate and give up the black and white thinking--and talk to him about the bad AND the good of what he has experienced.
So what if he got put into this program against your will---fuck your will or lack of it---maybe it's time to hear about, really hear about all that this experience meant to him, helpful or not, instead (and don't bull shit me, I've got a pretty good idea of the family dynamics here) of requiring and expecting him to be a loyal foot soldier in your own war against therapeutic boarding schools.
The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.
Go on--take a chance, talk to him about the good and the bad of his life at the school he attended---if he can talk without feeling that he is betraying his really injured activist mother, you guys might have a real conversation, you never know!!
WOW- amazing post, fellow Anon. So well said. Not much chance Deb will take it to heart, though.
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The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.
Pity the kids who DIED in these programs cannot speak up for themselves.
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On 2005-08-26 17:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.
Pity the kids who DIED in these programs cannot speak up for themselves.
"
Wow- great post anon. You really know what you are talking about. It's not like Karen will take it to heart though.
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Have people died at Hidden Lake? Isn't that where Deborah's son went? Have people died at Carlbrook? At Oakley? Cascade when it was around?
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On 2005-08-26 17:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The fact is, Deb, whether or not these schools are broadly helpful or not, they do help some kids--anyone who know a reasonable number of graduates from any of them knows this.
Pity the kids who DIED in these programs cannot speak up for themselves.
"
Yup. These people don't care though, that's what is sad. THey'd rather argue semantics than look the beast in the face. They are killing kids.
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I have to confirm and agree with some things Deborah pointed out. I have also experienced, and still do to this day as a matter of fact, the very same post-program symptoms ---here are the points she made that I noticed in myself post program:
------"He seems guarded, serious," etc----------
------"It appears that it's hard for him to feel like he's part of the group. He doesn't speak up and let his voice be heard. Just kinda lethargic, goes along, or splits and does his own thing (isolates). My sense is that there is still a feeling of deprivation he's trying to compensate for, rightfully so. As well as an avoidance of taking risks and at all costs, avoids conflict."--------
-----"While he appears fine on the surface- has friends and is well liked- I see the insecurity."----------
-----"He felt like he'd been sent to hell, and in fact, he had been."----------
And in response to what you said here Deborah...-----"There are moments when I see MY son, and that gives me hope that the programming will eventually wear off."------------
Even though I say I still exhibit much of the exact same post program damage so many years later....I think your son stands a great chance of putting some of those bad pogramming effects behind him....in my opinion anyway, I think he'll do well because he has an enlightened parent like your self who obviously cares enough to help him through his post program difficulties...
::rainbow::
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Anon said --------"Wonder if it is time to step up to the plate and give up the black and white thinking--and talk to him about the bad AND the good of what he has experienced."
WOW anon! My what a great idea :idea: :idea:
Anon, I think you should practice what you preach! :roll:
I wonder if its time for YOU, ANON, to step up to the plate and give up the black and white Pro-progam thinking---and talk about the bad and good of program experiences....
You have quite the knack of posting nothing but pro-program propoganda, never once acknowleging that there are valid program horror stories...you always brush the bad points aside, then start yappping about how anti program people are just angry...insinuating, and, blatently saying that we have no valid complaints....
So again which program has such a great academic program? Its easier to discuss the good and bad points with concrete examples, evidence etc.. :em:
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I don't think any student has died while at Hidden Lake. Not sure about Carlbrook or Oakley or Cascade.
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To Nonconformistlaw---you seem to have morphed more than one anon poster into your recent response referring to ignoring horror stories re various programs.
I'm the anon calling Deb on her shit with her son---and based on her past postings I've got to believe that whatever her son went thru at his school is likely a small thing compared to the psychological manipulation that the poor kid is facing now at home with his dear old mom---cuz if he ever even thought about something good in his school experience (and what kid doesn't find something good in most experiences?)---old Deb would be on him like a duck on a June bug---I mean she couldn't let that stand, could she?---that would invalidate her whole reason for being at the moment--- not to mention most of her 3 million fucking lengthy posts at this site.
I'm sure there's shitty programs out there so I have no dog in that fight you're trying to pick. And about the program with the great academics---that seems to pertain to a post by a different anon my man---you'll have to take that up with the other poster. Get this: "anon" is generic: it doesn't refer to just one poster
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On 2005-08-26 19:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To Nonconformistlaw---you seem to have morphed more than one anon poster into your recent response referring to ignoring horror stories re various programs.
I'm the anon calling Deb on her shit with her son---and based on her past postings I've got to believe that whatever her son went thru at his school is likely a small thing compared to the psychological manipulation that the poor kid is facing now at home with his dear old mom---cuz if he ever even thought about something good in his school experience (and what kid doesn't find something good in most experiences?)---old Deb would be on him like a duck on a June bug---I mean she couldn't let that stand, could she?---that would invalidate her whole reason for being at the moment--- not to mention most of her 3 million fucking lengthy posts at this site.
I'm sure there's shitty programs out there so I have no dog in that fight you're trying to pick. And about the program with the great academics---that seems to pertain to a post by a different anon my man---you'll have to take that up with the other poster. Get this: "anon" is generic: it doesn't refer to just one poster"
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :wave:
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Hmmm- if I'm a Karen I have changed genders.
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That's hot. ::kiss::
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To the anon that said------"To Nonconformistlaw---you seem to have morphed more than one anon poster into your recent response referring to ignoring horror stories re various programs.
I'm the anon calling Deb on her shit with her son---and based on her past postings I've got to believe that whatever her son went thru at his school is likely a small thing compared to the psychological manipulation that the poor kid is facing now at home with his dear old mom---cuz if he ever even thought about something good in his school experience (and what kid doesn't find something good in most experiences?)---old Deb would be on him like a duck on a June bug---I mean she couldn't let that stand, could she?---that would invalidate her whole reason for being at the moment--- not to mention most of her 3 million fucking lengthy posts at this site.
I'm sure there's shitty programs out there so I have no dog in that fight you're trying to pick. And about the program with the great academics---that seems to pertain to a post by a different anon my man---you'll have to take that up with the other poster. Get this: "anon" is generic: it doesn't refer to just one poster"------------
________________________________________________
First of all to this little tidbit -----"'anon' is generic: it doesn't refer to just one poster"------------ NO SHIT, you dont say?????? :wave:
In your astute observations, I am 100% sure that you have noticed the lengths I have gone to in order to try to keep the anons straight...I do this by including quotes then addressing them....aside fom that there is no other way to differential those of you who deilberately remain under the bag....It would be difficult to get confused if say...Oh I dont know, you use a damn user name and login?????????
And as far as your unsupported allegations against Deborah, what evidence do you have to support that she is "manipulating her son"?????????? You have none...you said so yourself when you said "I've got to believe, etc" This just proves to me that you chose to believe what YOU WANT TO BELIEVE, without any regard for the ACTUAL TRUTH about Deborah...this is your opinion, and NOT a factual conclusion.....
I would have much prefered to have a parent who was willing to listen to my side of things instead of having parents who bought program BS...looks more to me like more program parents should follow the great example Deborah sets. I wish I had a parent like her after I got out of hell/program.
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".looks more to me like more program parents should follow the great example Deborah sets. I wish I had a parent like her after I got out of hell/program"
Oh, God. Spare us from more Deborahs.
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I wish I had a parent like her after I got out of hell/program.
I agree.
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FYI, I have heard the good, what little there was, and none was associated with the day-to-day life at the 'program'. One staff in particular treated him with genuine respect, acknowledged his skills, values, maturity, and leadership qualities- thought he was two years older than he actually was. This person also had the integrity and decency to compliment me on my parenting and to futher state that he shouldn't be there- something the egomaniacs he dealt with on a daily basis loved to take credit for. Unfortunately, he only spent 28 days of his 20 month sentence with this person.
We don't discuss it unless he brings it up. He chooses, at this point in time, not to think about it because he'd rather not feel the rage. That will mellow and there will be a time for revisiting the experience. For now, he's enjoying life and making up for the two years that were taken from him by sadistic, money grubbing 'helpers'.
How bout you knock off the shade tree analysis and cop to why I'm a burr in your butt?
What about my story infuriates you?
Come on, it's your chance to have a much needed breakthrough.
And, I'm just dying to know why you are so invested in me, what I have to say, and my son's well being.
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I know what gets to me when I read your posts... your undying belief that all programs are bad. Not just the program you dealth with but all the other ones too. Thats up there with having a bad meal in a restaurant therefore all meals in all restaurants will be bad. But youre quick to get all over someone elses shit if they say they had a good experience with a program. These arent the people that are preaching that all programs are good, just the one they used.
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Gee Shortbus, thanks for sharing what really 'gets to you'.
Now, whose shit exactly did I get all over?
It certainly wasn't yours.
I forget... which program are you here to defend?
I know you haven't been around long, but let me give you a glimmer of what has contributed to my 'attitude'.
My older son was heinously abused for six months in a military boarding school which resulted in severely dibilitating 'PTSD' and a successful lawsuit.
Four years later my younger son was boarded in a different military BS. A week after he arrived his dorm officer was arrested for molesting his charges. My son reported him. There's been another incident recently, so they changed their name. That should help, huh? :lol:
Then he was off to a TBS for two years. While he had no run-ins with pedophiles, he did have to endure some lovely, sincere but misguided, 'helpers', probably not too much unlike yourself.
My neighbor's son was killed at Skyline Journey. Perhaps you read about that?
A colleague's grandson was sexually abused at a RTC in Waco, Tx which resulted in a lawsuit.
My best friend was incarcerated in a program in the 70s. Ran, was raped, and said it was less traumatic than the program.
My mother was sent along with her 'acting out' twin to a reform school back in the late 40s to have the devil beat out them. Guess mom was guilty by genetic association. :lol: A story I never heard until the unpleasant reality of programs crashed into my/our lives.
Let's see, am I forgetting anyone?
Pardon my skepticism, which I won't apologize for. I don't have any lovely stories to share. I think parents are rolling the dice when they abdicate responsibility for thier children.
Do you have children Shorbus?
We could also discuss the 100+ children that were 'helped' to a premature death. Or shall we continue to pretend that wilderness in particular has no inherent risks? Know any other forms of adolescent therapy that includes the risk of serious injury or death?
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-27 00:52 ]
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On 2005-08-26 10:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-08-26 09:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah, the smart kids are onto something, Ginger. That's why they were stealing cars, doing drugs, blowing off their educations. Can't understand why we would want to redirect their efforts. "
The simple fact you generalize tens of thousands of teens shows your idiocy. You are gravely uninformed, and obvious unexperienced. Your hate for yourself shows quite clear, however."
Karen, I thought I told you to get back under the bridge...
BACK! Back under the bridge, troll!
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Oh, good. Dysfunctional is back. How did we manage without his insightful comments. I think we should all go by the name Karen, since you idiots think only one person (the alleged Karen) opposes your one-trick show here.
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So what program hve I been defending? You tell me. You read all my posts and if paid attention I havent been defending any program, I described what the job was like and talk about MY experiences. Hasnt always been good, hasnt always been bad. And if you mother had been sent away to a program and it was so horrible why didnt she say anything to you when you made the decision to send your children away not once but twice? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Take JUST A LITTLE responsibility for the choices you made in your sons lives. Hold yourself accountable instead of thowing blame at the school. They wouldnt have been there if you hadnt decided it was an option.
And no, I dont have children, what difference does that make?
Kids get murdered and raped in public schools. Its not right but it doesnt make all public schools bad.
You sound like the person who wont fly because its dangerous because planes crash even though youre far less likely to die in a plane crash than a car.
Id like to feel some sypathy for your sarcastic, never-gonna-let-it-go self, but you throw crap at me like "lovely, sincere but misguided, 'helpers', probably not too much unlike yourself." I think its funny, this shit has got control of you and youre never goona let it go. This much hate for something has got to be eating up your insides. I feel sorry for you.
So no sypathy for you my friend, just pity.
And why did you send your kids away??? Were they mouthy? Poor grades? Ran away from home? Didnt like their friends?
How many visitors have you had to your pity party and how many have stayed?
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Shortbus- Deborah's whole gripe is that she was NOT the one who sent her kids away. She actually lost custody of them and it was her ex-husband (with custody) who sent them away. So, clearly, they were totally screwed up before they were removed from her. This is her whole agenda- she fights all programs because she has an axe to grind against her ex-husband. She HAS to say all programs are bad because that makes her ex-husband the bad guy who ruined her wonderful kids.
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I hve been trying to piece things together from past posts Deborah. I dont know what your home life was like growing up and I dont know what your life was like married with children. Sounds like youve probably made some ungood choices. But most of your posts are pointing fingers at other people and condemning the for their mistakes. I dont get it - oh, I suppose I do. Youre still angry and pissed off and thats been gettng in the way of trying to resolve anything for yourself. I can relate to that. Looking at your posts, youve been angry since at least 2002. Guess its working for you.
_________________
Its never too late to procrastinate[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-27 07:25 ]
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On 2005-08-27 06:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh, good. Dysfunctional is back. How did we manage without his insightful comments. I think we should all go by the name Karen, since you idiots think only one person (the alleged Karen) opposes your one-trick show here."
I SAID BACK, TROLL!! Get back under the bridge!
Do it NOW!!
:wave:
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On 2005-08-27 07:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Shortbus- Deborah's whole gripe is that she was NOT the one who sent her kids away. She actually lost custody of them and it was her ex-husband (with custody) who sent them away. So, clearly, they were totally screwed up before they were removed from her. This is her whole agenda- she fights all programs because she has an axe to grind against her ex-husband. She HAS to say all programs are bad because that makes her ex-husband the bad guy who ruined her wonderful kids."
Now, Karen, let's not be so hasty in judgement...
Now, GET BACK UNDER THE BRIDGE!!
::bangin::
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No Shortbus, I ?don?t? read all your posts.
It?s obvious that you and the troll haven?t read all my posts either or you might not be wasting people?s time and attention or distracting from the topic by misrepresenting my situation.
My mother didn?t mention being sent away for the same reason most survivors don?t- humiliation.
If you ever have children perhaps you?ll have some inkling of what it might be like to have your child incarcerated by a sadistic, for-profit corporation that totally disregards your rights, as well as your child?s and doles out abuse under the guise of ?therapy?
Your assumption that all programs aren?t bad is based on what? Any independent research that supports the notion that splitting up families is useful? I haven?t seen it, but have seen numerous studies to indicated the contrary.
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Sounds like youve probably made some ungood choices.
Is this your official diagnosis, counselor?
Deborah is one of the all-time most informed people I've ever come accross. The difference between her and most other parents I've met is she seems willing to accept her mistake, and try to help out in a positive way now. Most parents simply go into denial, even if they found out their child was abused, or even worse.
I admire you Deborah, and hope you stay at fornits for a long time to come. You seem to be one of the most informed posters on this site and personally, I would hate to see your expertise gone to waste.
I would of loved to have a parent to discuss my fucked up program experience with. Problems was, my father was compeltely in denial. He was the type who says, till this day, 'well youre alive still arent ya?'. I know any other kids who were locked up in abusive programs for long periods of time know how much this statement enrages them. It enrages me.
So please FORGIVE ME :smile:
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"one of the most respected posters at this site"
Therein lies the problem! How can you respect a one-trick pony? An angry adult who can't get over how she lost control of her kids.
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I havent found the time to read all 2000+ posts. I barely have 100. And if you dont bother to read then than why do respond to them and think that you know so much about me? And why did you let you exhusband send BOTH you kids away?
I dont think Im misrepresenting your situation, I just dont feel its necessary to scroll through all you posts. I was hoping to find one titled maybe "my story" or something that might give an abbreviated storyline that I can attach to Deborah. I never made the assumption that all programs are not bad. I assume that some programs are good sometimes but probably not all the time for all kids. I assume there are bad programs that are probably bad most of, maybe all the time. I assume there are pretty good programs that can produce good results in some kids and not so good in others. These assumptions are based on my personal experience working for two different programs and conversations Ive had with people that have worked at over ten other programs. Ive also had discussions with students that have been enrolled at a number of different programs. And those cover the gamut from Outward Bound to one of the CEDU programs. I have NEVER said programs were all good or all not bad. We can argue this point til the cows come home and as long as you are only willing to discuss the topic in absolutes we will never agree.
And your mother not saing anything out of humiliation???? Thats like standing by and watching someone get the shit kicked out of them and you not saying anything because you dont want anyone to know the same thing happened to you??? Yeah, right.
Your kids paid the price for your mothers silence. Im glad you're not as meek as she is. But maybe you used to be and thats why you didnt stand up to your ex and keep you kids out of programs.
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I think she lost all rights to control what her ex did with the kids. I'm sure she isn't going to tell us the story about why that happened. There is such a strong preference favoring the mother in custody disputes, that it is a little curious how Deborah lost all parental rights.
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Hmmmmmmmm, but Id like to get the story directly from Deborah.
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On 2005-08-27 09:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
""one of the most respected posters at this site"
Therein lies the problem! How can you respect a one-trick pony? An angry adult who can't get over how she lost control of her kids."
I will BEAT YOU BACK under that bridge if I have to. I mean it. BACK! BACK, DAMN YOU, TROLL!!
Oh, by the way, I saw a new movie about you has been released: "The Brothers Grimm"
Say hello to the Billy Goats Gruff for me! :wave:
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On 2005-08-27 10:06:00, Shortbus wrote:
"Hmmmmmmmm, but Id like to get the story directly from Deborah.
"
At least Deborah will shoot you straight on what happened.
The anon you're conversing with here is a hateful, spiteful, viscious, venemous troll named Karen.
She hates everyone, especially her kid, and teenagers in general.
Hi, Karen! :wave:
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I can understand the annoyance with anons. There are many flavors, yet all have the same aftertaste.
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On 2005-08-27 10:21:00, Shortbus wrote:
"I can understand the annoyance with anons. There are many flavors, yet all have the same aftertaste.
"
Oh, shut up already.
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I think you'll find Deborah to be a pretty reasonable lady. Usually the ad-hominem attack is not her style. She is very passionate though and can be pretty biting in her commentary.
I worked at the BM warehouse where her son son was sent, and I can tell you from first-hand experience she has every right to be good and goddamn pissed at those people. Her commentary about that place is dead-on.
I just like messing with the trolls. They're so predictable and hateful. It's funny to get them to spew...especially my favorite two: Karen and Full-of-Shit (Ben's) Dad. Miss you guys!
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On 2005-08-27 10:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-08-27 10:21:00, Shortbus wrote:
"I can understand the annoyance with anons. There are many flavors, yet all have the same aftertaste.
"
Oh, shut up already. "
How funny is that? While I was typing my response about the predictability and hatefulness of the trolls, one posted. That was quick!
Well, at least they consistently prove me right. That's nice. Thanks, Karen!
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Wrong on all fronts- I'm not Karen and I don't hate teenagers and especially not my kids.
I simply agree with the other Anon and ShortBus that it is ridiculous to take the position that all programs are bad. That simply isn't true. It is a shame Deborah's son had a bad experience at Hidden Lake (several years ago, I believe). Hidden Lake has been a good program for many kids- and has not been good for some kids. None of us want ANY teen to be in a bad or abusive program.
You lose all your credibility by condemning all EG programs across the board. You also lose credibility with the insane posters like Nihil and Dysfunctional. It really hurts your cause, if the cause truly is to expose and shut down abusive programs. It seems to me that the cause has become more simply to amuse yourselves all day on the internet.
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***********************************************
Karen said:
"Wrong on all fronts- I'm not Karen and I don't hate teenagers and especially not my kids.
I simply agree with the other Anon and ShortBus that it is ridiculous to take the position that all programs are bad. That simply isn't true. It is a shame Deborah's son had a bad experience at Hidden Lake (several years ago, I believe). Hidden Lake has been a good program for many kids- and has not been good for some kids. None of us want ANY teen to be in a bad or abusive program.
You lose all your credibility by condemning all EG programs across the board. You also lose credibility with the insane posters like Nihil and Dysfunctional. It really hurts your cause, if the cause truly is to expose and shut down abusive programs. It seems to me that the cause has become more simply to amuse yourselves all day on the internet."
***********************************************
You're all Karen and Full-of-Shit Dad to me!
A troll is a troll is a troll is a troll...
By the way, your remark about Deborah's problem with HLA being a while back is accurate.
However, there's interesting discussion going on on that thread today about a young lady who recently graduated who had a relationship with staff while she was a resident there. She reports that she knows of several other students having relationships with staff members (no pun intended).
She also describes another staff there who is clearly a pedophile and abusing kids by using the power of his position.
There's some sick bastards over there abusing kids for fun and profit on a regular basis, allegedly having inappropriate sexual relations (statutory rape, at BEST, sexual assault or rape at worst) with kids while the kids live in fear of being molested or worse and won't report it for abject fear of what will happen to them if they do.
It's a WONDERFUL place, yes. Please continue to defend it and show what a truly heartless and sick fuck you actually are...
Love ya!
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-27 11:35 ][ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-01-26 15:07 ]
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Shortbus,
You don?t think your misrepresenting my situation? And you don?t think it?s necessary to scroll through all my posts before making such assumptions? You?re fairly intelligent, I?m sure you can figure out how to use the Search WWF function and specify your search criteria so you don?t have to read ?all? of them.. If/When you find my story, posted numerous times, you can practice what you preach to your captives- take responsibility and apologize. You are way out of line.
I did read your response to Notafriendofredcliff, so I know you are aware that programs can and do take children without both parents consent and deny parents rights who aren?t footing the bill or going along with the program. Also, that it?s not a matter of ?letting? the other parent place a child. In all the cases I?m aware of the child was placed without the other parents knowledge or consent. Yeh, three times in my situation. Once there, the other parent is faced with taking legal action to have their child removed and/or defend their rights. You might have asked before you assumed. Very program of you. Until you read my story, you?d be wise to stick to what you KNOW, lest you further damage your already questionable reputation here.
And just as you?ve erroneously assumed about that situation, you have taken a trip down the only neural pathway you possess to assume why my mother didn?t tell her story before my son was incarcerated. Your last comment, ?Thats like standing by and watching someone get the shit kicked out of them and you not saying anything because you dont want anyone to know the same thing happened to you???? indicates to me that you didn?t comprehend my response. Neither of us knew before. When I described what was happening (after the third placement- which wasn?t ?military?), then and only then, did she feel like I would understand what had happen to her. It's not something you discuss with your kids over breakfast. Oh by the way honey, let me tell you about the time your grandfather sent me away to religious holy-rollers to have the shit beat out of me... for no 'good' reason. My kids paid no price for my ?mother?s silence? you ignorant, presumptuous bitch. And ?meek? doesn?t describe either of us.
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Go ahead and reduce yourself to namecalling. I wont go there. You are one big ball of bile. What a way to live!!!!
Yeah whatever, I think youre pretty damn funny in how wound up you get.
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And why did you lose custody of your kids? I still havent found the answer to that question.
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You're too steeped in program thinking to have rational discourse with Shortbus... a waste of time.
Find the post in which it is stated that I lost custody. Then we might have something to discuss.
Until then, my 'name-calling', while rude, appears to be damned accurate.
I'm 'reduced' for name-calling and you're righteous and justified in stating erroneous assumptions as if they were fact?
Yep, the old double-standard so common to programs.
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Id appreciate it if you took a moment to tell me where to find the info... I searched both lost and custody and couldnt find it. My apology for any disrespect. And Im not clear on what you mean by program thinking.... please explain. I also apologize for any rudeness. Youre right I havent been fully informed on your situation, but not for lack of trying - you could help a bit if you wanted. Its a lot harder to listen to what a persons saying when they are obviously really mad at you, thats what it seems like to me. And I gave you the courtesy of asking for your side instead of blindly processing anons comments. So Id appreciate it if you cut me a little slack. You do have a lot of posts to weed through. :smile:
And what double standard? Please explain.
_________________
Its never too late to procrastinate[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-27 12:57 ]
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You might try changing your search criteria. The anon whose lead you're following is a troll. There?s a reason you won?t get any returns for ?lost custody?. If you?re looking for something to substantiate the troll?s blathering, it will be a waste of your time.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-27 13:22 ]
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Im waving a white flag at you and youre just pain in the butt. Apparently you have no interest in clearing up the misunderstanding. Just throw me a bone and while youre at it could you answer the questions I asked in my last post?
_________________
Its never too late to procrastinate[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-27 13:35 ]
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The troll isn't blathering. Losing custody is information Deborah shared with parents on the struggling teens board. She has also harassed parents on that board with emails and IM messages. I think she was banned from posting.
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what was her login at ST?
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Not sure- it was before my time.
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So Deborah, is this true or is anon making things up?
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What? No URLs, troll?
A user name, perhaps?
Even a thread I participated in?
Yeh, blather.
BTW, I wasn't offically 'banned', it was more covert... Error message: This username is not registered.
In hindsight, might have been an actual error.
Either way, wasn't worth my time to re-register.
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Like I said before - just throwing out the white flag and asking for a little help... whatever happened burned you pretty bad. But youre just another person on a bulletin board, I dont have a pressing desire to understand if you have no intention of meeting me halfway, or at the very least taking a couple steps in my direction.[ This Message was edited by: Shortbus on 2005-08-27 15:04 ]
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I think there was a bit of sarcasm here. It strikes me that some of the posters, even those who worked at RTC's show poor language abilities and a lack of reading comprehension.
And the fact is, parents...good parents, DO talk to their kids. They do ask why! They are patient and kind, they are strong and they set boundaries. But some kids have underlying biological factors that make them rebel. Or their personality doesn't fit with their school environment. OR they suffer abuse at the hands of trusted school officials. It is a complex matter.
One more thing, do ANY of you who are throwing out the term "bad parents" have children of your own??? any?? Because being a "good" parent is not so straightforward as you suggest.
Anyone who is not parenting a teen should NOT be offering advice to parents who are. THAT is simple. So get a grip yourself.
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You respond as if this thread isn't 4 months old.
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It may be 4 months old but it is still applicable to the general opinions on here and people are obviously still reading it! Why is everyone so easily inflamed and moved to attack?
And now, a question that is not 4 months old. And a question I am asking everyone. If not RTC's then what is YOUR solution? It is very easy to be a critic but much more difficult to actually solve problems. So thank you all very much for letting the world know that there are abuses at RTC's. Now let's figure out what parents can and should do when they are worried about their child.
That's my goal.
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Anyone who is not parenting a teen should NOT be offering advice to parents who are. THAT is simple. So get a grip yourself.
"
I disagree. Some here may not be parents of teens, but they were teens themselves. Some were 'troubled teens.' This gives them the experience and benefit of hindsight as to what worked (or may have worked) for them.
Further, being a parent of a teen does not automatically make one a good parent or an expert on adolescent psychology.
If we see another human being being treated in an inhumane way, it does not matter what expertise or experience we have.
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Ok, so like I said, if you have some advice other than what NOT to do, I am all ears! I would love to hear from teens about what WOULD work because so far what I have read on here is what I already know.
I don't support inhumane treatment either. But frankly, right now, my son is treating ME in an inhumane way.
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I know this post is very old. I am new to the site and a parent of a struggling teen. I am in process of having every test known to man done on him. He went from an extremely sensitive and caring young man to a violently angry and depressed one. I am thankful that you see that the program may not have helped but that your parents were trying, desperately to do something to help you. I'm sorry that you were misdiagnosed. It is my biggest fear in trying to decide what to do with my son. That we are missing the magic key. For all the rest of the post-teens who don't see the logic of these programs...well, someday you may have a teen who is slipping away from you and you will understand that as a parent you will do anything, ANYTHING to save them. How could you not?
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On 2005-12-03 18:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It may be 4 months old but it is still applicable to the general opinions on here and people are obviously still reading it! Why is everyone so easily inflamed and moved to attack?
And now, a question that is not 4 months old. And a question I am asking everyone. If not RTC's then what is YOUR solution? It is very easy to be a critic but much more difficult to actually solve problems. So thank you all very much for letting the world know that there are abuses at RTC's. Now let's figure out what parents can and should do when they are worried about their child.
That's my goal. "
Hello, parent. There are many on this board who can tell you "what not to do," as "it" has been done to them and either didn't help or actually hurt them. There are a few folks on this board who can tell you some real action steps toward finding the root of your child's ongoing difficulties.
I personally worked at two of these RTC's early on in my career as a therapist. I can tell you for a fact that I would never recommend this type of "treatment" for ANY kid at ANY time. I can speak factually about what I've heard and seen, and can extrapolate fairly accurately about other programs, as they are almost all built on the same "platform," if you will.
There are very specific criteria that need to be met at a certain threshold in order for any professional to recommend residential placement for an adolescent. You should take your child to a psychologist who specializes in assessing adolescents. DO NOT take your child to a psychiatrist who relies heavily on medication for treatment. DO NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, rely on an "educational consultant" for ANY PART OF ASSESSMENT. Remember, you are first looking for an ASSESSMENT, and when you have an accurate picture of your child's "issues" you will begin to make a focused, informed decision on a TREATMENT plan. No reputable care-giver would recommend residential treatment except in the most extreme cases (kid is actively suicidal or homicidal), and then inpatient treatment would only be for up to several weeks to stabilize the kid at which point he or she would enter outpatient treatment in your community.
OK, moving right along... Behavior Modification "schools," "RTC's," "programs," or whatever they like to call themselves, DO NOT WORK. There have been many difinitive studies, including one by the NIH that have lead the Surgeon General of the United States to release findings stating that RTC's generally don't help, often harm, and are responsible for an INCREASE in juvenile delinquency caused by "warehousing" delinquents without proper psychological care or supervision, where the "less problematic" residents learn even more maladaptive behavior from some of the more severely delinquent kids and often become victims of crimes within the facilities.
I can support the above statements through direct experience. The RTC industry is solely geared toward MAKING A PROFIT. They make most of that profit by taking advantage of desperate parents at their weakest moments, telling the parent over and over that their child will be "dead, insane or in jail" without immediate intervention by THEIR PARTICULAR program. Many facilities are owned by the same people or parent corporations. Many have been sued out of business or closed due to abuse, but they are such high profit businesses that the same people who just had to close over millions of dollars lost in lawsuits or the jailing of their staff members open up under a new name in a new state where they begin the same cycle once again.
RTC's are one of the biggest money-making SCAMS in the treatment industry, often billing themselves as "schools" to parents and "treatment centers" to insurance companies.
They rarely operate within the letter of the law and almost never within the spirit of the law. They are for the most part, unregulated and unlicensed and employ uneducated "guards" with no credentials to implememt their "programs" largely consisting of extreme punishments, both mental and physical, and some form of Large Group Awareness Training, used to make the subject fully dependent on the "program" for what they will be made to believe is their ultimate survival. The same bullshit is shoveled down the throats of the parents who are cautioned not to believe "anything negative" their child says about the program, no matter how disturbing the charge. Communications are always censored (in violation of Constitutional Law). Some inmates are not even allowed to speak at all for several months and any and all communication with parents (if allowed at all) is directly monitored by staff to insure the child cannot "manipulate" the parent into taking them home.
Completion of the "program" is arbitrary. It isn't based on any test, assessment, timetable or measurable goals. Children can be held indefinitely as long as the parents continue to pay the $5000.00/mo (and up) fees (I've seen up to FOUR YEARS then "POST-GRAD"). When parents run out of money, the children are immediately discharged, which, if there were a valid psychological reason for their placement, would be illegal and unethical. It's all about the money.
As far as education is concerned, nearly every single RTC is unaccredited or is "conditionally accredited" as an "alternative school" which means, quite simply, the education is worth dick. If there even are classes, they're taught by unlicensed, unaccredited teachers or are computer-based "self study," both of which yeild no legal diploma nor transferrable credits. Your kid will be further behind then before he went to the special "school." An example of this is one of the "flagship" programs, the Academy at Ivy Ridge in NY which was recently successfully sued by the State Atorney General and found by a judge to be "grossly misrepresenting their credentials" to consumers. They were issuing "diplomas" they said were valid and legal in NY, but in reality, they were not accredited by ANY agency whatsoever and the so-called diplomas were worth nothing. "Graduates" were barred from college entrance and had to either take the GED or repeat two years of high school. AIR was fined nearly $250,000.00 and ordered to repay tuition to dozens of "graduates" totaling over $1,000,000.00. Some "school."
In any case, parent, whatever you do, remember it is your CHILD'S WELFARE that comes first, even over the quality of your own life for the time being. Work with your kid and a good therapist. Be a loving parent and respect your child. Being a teenager is not a "disorder" that can be miraculously "cured" by some pseudo-therapeutic hack strangers with glossy brochures. Read up, ask questions and MOST OF ALL remember this is YOUR LOVING CHILD, YOUR BABY.
Good luck. Feel free to drop me a PM if you need more specific information.
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On 2005-12-03 23:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I know this post is very old. I am new to the site and a parent of a struggling teen. I am in process of having every test known to man done on him. He went from an extremely sensitive and caring young man to a violently angry and depressed one. I am thankful that you see that the program may not have helped but that your parents were trying, desperately to do something to help you. I'm sorry that you were misdiagnosed. It is my biggest fear in trying to decide what to do with my son. That we are missing the magic key. For all the rest of the post-teens who don't see the logic of these programs...well, someday you may have a teen who is slipping away from you and you will understand that as a parent you will do anything, ANYTHING to save them. How could you not?"
Do you have any idea what caused this change? Are you on speaking terms?
I will not attempt to offer specific advice without knowing the specific situation. People, even 'troubled teens' are all different and what works for some does not work for others. Also, there are differences as to how far one parent may want to go. You say parents will do anything to save their children. I don't think so. I know many teens (my own sister at 15) who get kicked out of their homes. My father had limits as to both what he would do and what he would put up with.
With me it was a bit easier. I refused to obey rules and took the stand that no one had a 'right' to make me do anything. My father's response was simple. If you wish to have the freedoms of an adult, you will get the responsiblity, too. That meant he would drop all parent/child rules, but I had to be an adult member of the family and assist in all household maintenance; cooking, cleaning, repairs, lawn care, shopping, etc. If I did not behave like an adult, the response was simple. They cut me off financially, stopped cooking for me, stopped laundry services, no car access, etc. In other words, I would get the priviledges that a family member would get. They held the economic strings.
The end result was mixed. I still stayed out until the wee hours of the morning. I still got into some trouble. I still had the wrong friends. I was also more polite and helpful to my parents. We reached an uneasy truce. If I wanted my allowance and to be included in the family (meals, shopping, laundry, etc) then I had to act like a member of the family. I had to act like an adult and not an ass. My parents had to give up on curfews, bedtimes, picking my friends, and other rules that apply to 'kids.'
I also had the advantage that no matter how outrageous my positions were, my father would discuss them without being critical or belittling. We had some great discussions (arguements?) about free speech, anarchy, atheism, the basis for moral values, the boundries between individual choice and the need for order in society. He gave me some great books. My parents were lucky that I was an intellectual of sorts and could be reached this way. As they treated me more like an adult, I began to act like one, too. Maybe your son cannot be reached this way.
Some of the most helpful moments in parenting for me were those times after I did something stupid, my father, instead of punishment, would knock politely on the door to my room, ask if he could come in and talk, and sat with me to calmly discuss these things. He was not reactionary, judgemental, or angry, but he made great sense to me and I felt closer to him and more trusting when he finished. He made it clear that he cared.
I'm not saying this will work for you. I was never addicted to drugs or alcholol. I never committed a serious crime. I never dropped out of school and was not failing (except eighth grade). I was never apprehended, but the police drove me home a few times after taking down my personal information. That was kind of scary in itself.
Speaking of which, maybe if you present your son with literature from Wilderness programs and point out that this is where things are going, the threat would force him to negotiate. Make it clear he is allowed to grow up, but you are still very much in charge.
Oh, one last thing. There is no magic key. It takes time, committment, and effort.
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Incredible! Thank you so much. That is only the second positive response I have seen on this website.
My son is very much an intellectual and I do try to reach him that way. But, he is also getting into much more trouble than it sounds like you were. And when he's not in school, our relationship is great. I took him out and homeschooled him for a year and he completely opened up again. But he wanted to return to school so i gave him that chance. As soon as he gets in that environment, he starts acting up. First at school, and then at home. When the school calls and says he is the angriest kid they've ever seen, what's he like at home? I say, he's not that way with me, until I start getting pressure from the school and sometimes police to
"straighten him out".
I have worked with the school extensively to get them to understand what works for him and they have in fact adopted some of it. But my biggest concern is that he seems completely unwilling to take any responsibility for his angry reactions or not doing any of his work. The rest of us are twisting ourselves into pretzels around him trying to make things work and he just isn't responding.
Once summer comes, (when some kids get into more trouble), he settles right down. He comes home on curfew, he helps around the house if I ask him to, and he laughs and joins in family things.
So, basically he has to learn how to own his own behavior. That's number one. And then he has to take responsibility for doing his job, and right now that is passing school. I have sat him down multiple times and patiently explained and listened and offered him various options for school. We have school choice so he could go to a smaller school, he could go to a private school, and I'm still willing to homeschool him if he wants to do that. Yet he insists he wants to stay in the school he's in, that he will just cause a ruckus if I send him somewhere else, and then we come up with an agreement and he breaks it every time.
On top of that, he's become a master of lying and manipulation. I didn't want to believe it because we had always been so close, but he will look me right in the eyes and lie to me with earnestness and sincerity.
I also know he is using drugs. As far as I know, nothing major. Just pot. But where is he getting the money for it? He doesn't have a job, won't take jobs I offer him, and I don't give him an allowance if he doesn't contribute something to the household, and he rarely does, and only if he wants money. That is about once every few months. His sister and I have both had money disappear from our wallets and our rooms.
To me, these seem to be drastic things. I was a rebellious teenager but there were lines I just didn't cross.
Anyway, there is so much more to the story, but mostly I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story. By the way, what did you think of your Dad kicking out your sister? See, I guess I would "place him" before I would want to throw him out. That seems so scary to me.
Take care!
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On 2005-08-02 11:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-08-02 11:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you trying to say that Carlbrook and Swift River are bad, abusive programs? Yes, Carlbrook requires wilderness prior to enrollment. It does not have to be SUWS. Hidden Lake has its own captive wilderness program. These schools have strong academics, excellent therapists and are well-run and safe. Are there imperfections with the programs? Sure. Show me a school- any kind of school- that is perfect.
The young man who left Carlbrook at 18 (in your link) is but one voice. Do you really think he is representative?
I am not going to go into the licensing debate. There are many reasons why a business of ANY kind chooses to resist licensing requirements. I have been involved in these kind of disputes in totally unrelated industries. It does not mean that they have something to hide or want to run an abusive organization. "
You seem to parse words similar to the way a lawyer might. Are you a lawyer by chance?"
Yes, an unemployed one with plenty of time to troll many threads here. Lack of knowledge about any of these programs won't stop her - she just lies and says she has "personal experience."
Oh, Karen. For shame.