Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Brat Camp => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 21, 2005, 04:24:00 AM
-
From the ABC Family Brat Camp Forum on RedCliff Ascent:
RCAH8RReal
Redcliffer
Posted: Jan 07, 2005 03:00 PM reply
7 Posts
Registered: Jan 07, 2005 02:27 PM
Ok this show is straight nonsense as far as I can see for right now. I went to RCA and that place is no joke. The little bit of film that I've seen of it is so far off the spectrum it's unreal. Honestly I'm sorta stuck on where to even begin because when I went to RCA I was 15 years old. I'm now 22 and can honestly say that I still resent my parents for ever sending me there. It was not what fixed my problems for me and did nothing for the drug habit that I had already well endowed into myself. I was going through crazy withdrawls that were shown no simpathy, and no matter how messed up you are to people and what you have done, hiking 12 miles a day and making fires out of sticks, and having people downtalk you while you hike will not make you feel better about yourself.
I also don't want parents to think that this is necessarily a safe place either, and Redcliff can quote me on this next part that I'm about to get into.
When you go to RCA you have to go to the DR's and you usually go within a group that you have arrived at about the same time with. On the way to and from you have to blindfold yourself in order to "Not know where your going" In the middle of Utah though you have no idea where the hell you are neways. So anyways our driver thought he was just too hot to trot and was going way too fast on a dirt road for any vehicle especially for the lifted Suburban that we were in. So we start fishtailing then eventually the Suburban flips over and whaddya know...A whole bunch of injuries occur. The kid next to me wasn't wearing a seat belt and injured his neck, I shattered the growth plate in my left arm, one of the female counslers got hit in the face with a gasoline canister that we carried water in, another kid cut his hand open.....Needless to say it was an eventful day. Not over yet though. If I knew what was going to come next I would have ran away, it was chaotic enough and the problem was though most of us were too injured to do anything about it. After 45 minutes of waiting for an ambulance, and another hour trip into town we received medical attention at the hospital. All of us asked to speak with our parents to let them know what happened and that we were ok and everything. WELL THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. We all had counslers with us the entire time to make sure that we didn't use the phone to even call out parents. I mean what is that? My parents did not know the severity of the situation that the driver was showboating whilest driving and it was his fault that we were injured. The DR's that treated every one said that we needed bed rest for a few days, the counslers said that wouldn't be possible and so for all of us that were injured we got taken to Wendy's for food and the 2 kids in Neck Braces along with me and all the others that were injured went back into the field the same night. Now I know this was a severe instence of something that could happen newhere but the people there are not about your well being and you becoming someone better. You see the Therapist once a week or maybe every other I forget but you only talk to them for like 30 minutes and they tell you what you need to do. My therapist suggested my folks not write me as much so that I could focus on me and that looking for letters from them sets me up for failure. In the middle of nowhere, with no idea of when you'll get out, no help for drug addiction which is half the kids problems, and no letters from the parents...You tell me does that sound helpful.
In the end I was at RCA for 88 days. There was a kid that had been there for 4 months when I got there and was still there when I left. The kid had a learning disability and was unable to focus on bookwork like we did. Since it's also part of the curriculum he was just sorta stuck but had become so accustomed to living there that you felt no need to change.
My group had the handcart because we were a bunch of injured retards. Like I say the money is not worth it for the parents, the resentmeant that alot of us feel towards our parents is not worth it, and for some it does change them completely but for others it just shows them to not get caught. I also did 35 days of my time with a cast (Which shoulda been 28 but they didn't have time to take me to the DR.) An experience I wish I had never lived and I thank ABC Family for making it seem like it's some sorta joke or something, I sure hope you give it a proper justification.
So my name is Matthew R. aka Gimpy (From the Injury) aka Storm Fox the name I was given in my name ceremony at RCA.
Oh yeah sometime people should look up the day that the kids rebelled at RCA when counslers got beat up and rebelled in an uprising...That's always a good story.
And why the hell are the kids English or something? I don't understand TV sometimes.
Frogger_Chickadee
Re: Re: Real Redcliffer
Posted: Jan 09, 2005 12:20 PM reply
12 Posts
Registered: Jan 09, 2005 11:34 AM
hey Matt we should exchange WAR STORIES sometime email me
[email protected] i was there in 2001
getchasome123
Re: Re: Real Redcliffer
Posted: Jan 09, 2005 05:59 PM reply
10 Posts
Registered: Jan 09, 2005 05:37 PM
all right dude, you said yourself you had a drug problem, so what else did you do to get sent out there. there are ways of preventing these things. listen to mommy and daddy and don't throw tantrums when they tell you no.
braduh60l
Re: Re: Real Redcliffer
Posted: Jan 10, 2005 06:10 AM reply
6 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 05:56 AM
Its not suppose to make you feel better about yourself you idot. The camp is there as an alternative to prison. So I'd say your lucky your parents didn't send you to jail or prison.
Roar2000
Re: Re: Real Redcliffer
Posted: Jan 10, 2005 09:08 PM reply
4 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 08:10 PM
where can i find this story about the staff getting ina riot with the kids?
brightwinds
Re: Re: Real Redcliffer
Posted: Jan 10, 2005 09:30 PM reply
2 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 09:26 PM
I haven't seen the show , but I heard about it through someone that I met at RCA. I graduated from there about four years ago and it actually helped me. I know that there is a lot of messed up things that happen out in the wilderness and the staff could careless about you getting injured or sick but that's all part of the process. I had to hike everyday with a torn ligament in my ankle and needed surgery when I got out, but I still think I was able to get back on the right path and learn alot from going through this program. I don't think it was a joke at all, but the program does help you if you let it.
-
Thank you so much Matt for sharing your story. I'm so glad that you were able to get through such an awful experience and let us all know first hand what a place like that is like. You have my respect. More people need to be brave like you and speak of the stress they endured in similar situations. As for the negative responders to this post, you make me sick. But even you "people" don't deserve to be subjected to the horrors of a wilderness camp. God Bless...
-
"braduh60l
Re: Re: Real Redcliffer
Posted: Jan 10, 2005 06:10 AM reply
6 Posts
Registered: Jan 10, 2005 05:56 AM
...The camp is there as an alternative to prison. So I'd say your lucky your parents didn't send you to jail or prison."
Well that about says it! To hell with the constitution, civil rights, innocent until proven guilty, and all those tired cliches from back in the days when our founding fathers were working on creating a free and just society. When it comes to witches, burn them! No mercy! These witch trials are a waste of time, anyone can spot one.
-
A week ago my 15 year old stepson was abducted and taken to Redcliff. The following day, his father (my husband) was told about it via an email from his son's mother. He and the boy's mother have joint legal custody, but Redcliff doesn't require consent from both parents to do this. In fact, the consent form was actually signed by the mother and one of her ex-husbands.
The reason for his placement? He talks back and uses swear words with his mother, and on one occasion he "ran away from home" (his mother TOLD him to leave, so he got on his bike and went to the next town for a few hours, while staying in touch with his mother by cell phone).
The dilemma: We have done a LOT of research since learning of this, and much of what we are finding is conflicting, but overall frightening. My husband has phoned Redcliff and asked to SPEAK to his son, and has been denied. It is "against their policies". But he never agreed to their policies, and they have no right to deny him access to his son in this manner. The staff at Redcliff continues to tell him his son is adjusting nicely and doing well. How well could he be doing after being surprised by contract escorts who abducted him and took him to another state? These people are strangers to us, we have no way of knowing what he may actually be going through. We were sent special envelopes in order to write to him, but were told specifically to write only happy comments, and ask about skills he was learning there, etc. We understand that any mail he may send to us must first go through his mother and she must decide whether to forward it on. We anticipate a lot of censorship, and that the "students" also have limits placed on them regarding the content of their outgoing mail.
This child did not deserve to be forcibly abducted like a common criminal. He is a good kid, albeit he is spoiled and feels entitled. He underwent an extensive psychological evaluation one week before he was abducted. The doctor's findings were that "wilderness therapy" was premature and unwarranted. He recommended regular counseling for the child. The mother disregarded these findings, and hustled him off to Redcliff, so she could be free to enjoy the remainder of her summer without having to be a parent.
What do we do now? We are considering several options, including getting a court order to have him removed.
Please, if anyone can offer advice as to how we should proceed, please email me at [email protected]. We are desperate for information above and beyond the propaganda that Redcliff offers.
-
Other dads (and moms)in similar situations have gone and got their child.
SEE STORY BELOW!
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg13-desperate.shtml)
-
Yep, the mom sent her son to a WWASPS program without the dad's knowledge or consent and his dad went and got him out.
:nworthy:
-
Show up during a regularly scheduled, court ordered visitation time with your decree and they have to release your child. Your court ordered visitation supercedes the programs policies and procedures. Ultimately you may have to go to family court to prove the placement is unnecessary and too restrictive. Ask for an injunction to have him returned immediately while the matter is sorted out. The mother has violated the father's rights. Now he must prove so, and while he's at it, prove that she is not stable enough to make decisions alone. The recommendation on the eval may make this an easy case to prove.
You might also hire an attorney to send a threatening letter to the program. I don't technically know what liability they have, but they certainly are aiding the mother in denying the father's rights.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
-
Look, if the dad did not sign the agreement (enrollment contract) why can't he just go to Utah, get his kid and bring him home?
That's what Eric Stone's dad did (see link posted to story in Rocky Mountain News).
-
On 2005-07-30 13:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look, if the dad did not sign the agreement (enrollment contract) why can't he just go to Utah, get his kid and bring him home?
That's what Eric Stone's dad did (see link posted to story in Rocky Mountain News).
"
The problem with a wilderness program is you have to find the kid first. If the program is being uncooperative there is a lot of desert to search.
-
File a missing person's report w/ the local authorities. If there's one thing bureaucrats hateses, it's administrative hassle.
Always try to do things in chronological order; it's less confusing that way.
--Unknown
-
Thanks so much for the advice! We were feeling REALLY alone in this. The boy's parents live on opposite ends of the country, and our summer visitation allocation is behind us. However, we are hoping Redcliff will do the right thing and release him to his father. What's troubling is that we TOLD Redcliff about his recent evaluation, gave them the name of the doctor AND his assessment that wilderness therapy was not right for him, and they have made no effort to contact the doctor. This information, of course, was not mentioned on his application, as it was contradictory to his mother's plans (we actually have a copy of the application she submitted to them). She took him in for the evaluation, and now has proceeded to disregard the doctor's opinion. We expected that from her, but thought Redcliff would recognize and respect these findings, and see that he shouldn't be there. Is it about the child, or about the $$$$? Why wouldn't they at least take a minute to determine if this was the right choice for the child?
On his application, the mother's 3rd Ex-husband was listed as FATHER....then again as STEP-FATHER. He signed the consent form as FATHER. He and the child's mother separated in 2001, divorced in 2002. He emailed my husband, threatening to take him to court if he attempts to extricate the child from Redcliff. In the past, he had sent another of his stepsons, from yet another marriage, to Redcliff, and was pleased with the outcome. On the application, my husband was mentioned in passing, with the added comment: "disinterested". Redcliff says they "thought he knew about it" so they didn't bother to notify him. The discrepancies on the application certainly SHOULD have been a red flag to any reasonable person. The application included a copy of the divorce decree, showing they have JOINT legal custody (she has physical custody). While we are obviously upset at the "oversight", we are more concerned that they demonstrated NO interest in recognizing the findings of his evaluation. That speaks volumes about their true concerns.
Redcliff appears to have a good record for safety, which is reassuring. But we are concerned this type of treatment may be detrimental, since it really isn't warranted. It seems such an extreme measure to address normal teenage behavior. In the past, he has only had occasional family counseling with his mother. I always thought Wilderness Therapy was reserved for cases where all other options had been exhausted, or a child was deemed incorrigible. But apparently Redcliff will accept ANY child, troubled or not. If you have the money, they have the time.
I was looking at their website, and it says they pay their field instructors $80 - $125 per day. It doesn't seem they even need any particular training other than CPR & first aid, although additional training or experience is helpful. Basically, if you have the stamina to hike in inclement weather, have a minimum of a High School Equivalency, are at least 20 years old and can learn CPR, you're qualified. And they probably require you speak English and walk upright. They do not necessarily deny you because you have a conviction record; they just ask you to explain the circumstances, and put it before a committee. Thank goodness they at least deny employment if you have a conviction of a violent or sexual nature. I don't understand how these people, regardless of their empathy or good intentions, are qualified to help troubled children. I'm not trying to disparage the field instructors. I'm sure many of them are motivated by a true desire to help the kids. But I'm not comfortable with Redcliff's minimum hiring standards. It's just not sufficient, when these employees are charged with protecting and nurturing children in a dangerous environment.
Our inclination is to remove him from Redcliff. We may be met with obstacles, I just don't know. We are reluctant to attempt it without a court order, and are awating arrival the doctor's written report before requesting a hearing. Once the report is in hand, we can proceed.
I'd welcome any more input or information. Thanks!!
-
Redcliff appears to have a good record for safety, which is reassuring.
It's not that safe. Jared Oscarson nearly died in circumstances very reminiscent of those in which Aaron Bacon and Michelle Sutton met their deaths.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#72655 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2843&forum=9&start=0#72655)
And have you read the other posts in this forum about medical neglect, being forced to walk on a broken ankle and so on?
But apparently Redcliff will accept ANY child, troubled or not. If you have the money, they have the time.
True. On Brat Camp they admitted that some kids get sent there for things as trivial as watching an X-rated video. What kind of "therapy" can you give for something like that.
I was looking at their website, and it says they pay their field instructors $80 - $125 per day. It doesn't seem they even need any particular training other than CPR & first aid, although additional training or experience is helpful. Basically, if you have the stamina to hike in inclement weather, have a minimum of a High School Equivalency, are at least 20 years old and can learn CPR, you're qualified. And they probably require you speak English and walk upright. They do not necessarily deny you because you have a conviction record; they just ask you to explain the circumstances, and put it before a committee. Thank goodness they at least deny employment if you have a conviction of a violent or sexual nature.
They even employ students in the summer vacation!
-
More on RedCliff Ascent:
http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/RedCliff.ram (http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/RedCliff.ram)
-
Thanks to everyone for their input and assistance. Redcliff told us (after consulting with their attorney) that we had to have a specific court order for my husband to remove his son from the program, and after compiling a mountain of paperwork, we had a hearing to try to get the court order. Right now, I'm pretty angry about this. The court said there is no evidence that being at Redcliff will definitely be HARMFUL to him. So the motion was DENIED. I am incredulous over this. The paperwork included the psychological evaluation stating wilderness therapy was not called for, and could be counter-productive. That wasn't enough. His father has NO rights whatsoever. He is just used as a source of money. That's all. I am frustrated beyond description. Well, the good news is that one day my husband can show his son that he did everything possible to help him. He hasn't been allowed to speak to his son since he was taken away by "escorts". My husband is allowed to write him letters, and he has, but any mail the child sends to my husband is first received by his ex-wife, and SHE decides whether to forward it on. As you can probably guess, we haven't received any letters from him. I'm really bummed, but I'll get over it. I'm not so sure about the child.
-
On 2005-07-30 13:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-07-30 13:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look, if the dad did not sign the agreement (enrollment contract) why can't he just go to Utah, get his kid and bring him home?
That's what Eric Stone's dad did (see link posted to story in Rocky Mountain News).
"
The problem with a wilderness program is you have to find the kid first. If the program is being uncooperative there is a lot of desert to search."
Find a staff member and bribe them. Field staff and logistics are so poorly paid they'll jump at it. I probably would.
-
Well ... since the boy's doctor didn't think WT was necessary .... then what is the kid doing there? Redcliff should be ashamed. Keeping a kid that his own doctor says doesn't need WT? That makes no sense ... or does it?
On the upside, if the kid gets hurt in any way (physical, emotional, mental) at least you will be on record as having raised your concerns.
Best wishes to you and your boy. I hope it all turns out okay.
-
On 2005-08-09 14:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thanks to everyone for their input and assistance. Redcliff told us (after consulting with their attorney) that we had to have a specific court order for my husband to remove his son from the program, and after compiling a mountain of paperwork, we had a hearing to try to get the court order. Right now, I'm pretty angry about this. The court said there is no evidence that being at Redcliff will definitely be HARMFUL to him. So the motion was DENIED. I am incredulous over this. The paperwork included the psychological evaluation stating wilderness therapy was not called for, and could be counter-productive. That wasn't enough. His father has NO rights whatsoever. He is just used as a source of money. That's all. I am frustrated beyond description. Well, the good news is that one day my husband can show his son that he did everything possible to help him. He hasn't been allowed to speak to his son since he was taken away by "escorts". My husband is allowed to write him letters, and he has, but any mail the child sends to my husband is first received by his ex-wife, and SHE decides whether to forward it on. As you can probably guess, we haven't received any letters from him. I'm really bummed, but I'll get over it. I'm not so sure about the child. "
It does seem incredulous, but I suppose it hinges on the divorce agreement itself. My own divorce agreement states very specifically that my son cannot cross state lines, leave the country, change schools, or receive medical treatment without the express written consent of both of us. My ex attempted to get a Passport for our son and I easily blocked it (she seriously wanted to move to Canada when Bush was re-elected.) :smile: I thought she was over-reacting, and I didn't want him to be so far away.
Our divorce agreement prevents either of us from moving such a distance that visitation travel would be burdensome to the other parent, unless we both sign an agreement to the move. When my ex violated this by moving 100 miles away, I received full custody of my son. She eventually moved back, and we have joint custody, again.
Above all, check in with a good custody lawyer. Custody issues are never closed and can reopened by either parent at any time. You could sue for custody.
-
Too time consuming these days, especially when a program is involved. By the time it d-r-a-g-s through the court your kid could have completed the program.
All those rights are not protection, some parents violate them and worry about the consequences later. They are not guarentees that your kids will not be sent across state lines OR that you could get him/her back. The program will collude with the cooperative parent, in my case stooped so low as to perjure themselves.
It's a whole different ballgame than if your ex moves 100 miles away.
-
Yep. We are in New Hampshire, the mother is in California. Jursidiction is in NH, which one would think would be a GOOD thing, but the Marital Master who is assigned to hear all our legal matters has consistently ruled so unfairly against my husband, and I guess we were stupid to believe she would help him now. Maybe she's a single mom, and sympathizes with the mother. Who knows what's going on in her mind. We can't understand her decisions. Joe Blow on the street would reel in disbelief of her rulings. She is NOT doing what is best for the child. The parents have JOINT LEGAL CUSTODY, yet the mother has been able to make ALL decisions about the child without even consulting the father. She's been found in contempt of court for this kind of thing in the past, but that's ALL that happens....a piece of paper saying she acted in contempt. And that's only done to cover the MM's behind. So why would the mother change her behavior when there are no consequences? We want to believe in the judicial system, but right now, we feel like we're living in a Communist country. My husband is not allowed to see or speak to his son, and his son's mail to him can be intercepted by the mother. We did ask for temporary physical custody (pending a permanent order), allowing my husband to pick the child up and bring him home. Denied. We asked for a court order to enable him to remove him from Redcliff. Denied. We've considered asking this Marital Master to recuse herself, simply due to the fact that any idiot could see her rulings are not sound, and are slanted in the mother's favor. But we are confident she would refuse to do that, and then make things even more difficult for us. We are between a rock and a hard place. We feel helpless, and hopeless, and we're just trying not to do anything stupid at this point. We know we can't win in court. The child will be entering high school late, due to being at Redcliff. The court doesn't care. Redcliff doesn't give a rat's behind that the doctor said he doesn't need to be there. THEY NOW HAVE THE WRITTEN REPORT STATING THIS. It's very clear from the report, that he is only there so the mother can enjoy her summer without him around to interfere with her & her boyfriend. We asked Redcliff if the content of the report matters to them....they replied that it's helpful for them to have it in his file. They accepted him based on the mother's assertion she wants him there, and her 3rd ex-husband bringing them repeat business (anyone see a pattern here???? How many people send two of their former unrelated step-sons to Redcliff??), and they are just counting the money. If they were seriously in the business of helping children, they would acknowledge he does not need or deserve to be there, and they'd set him free. That's not what they are about. It's all about the money. These wilderness therapy programs are BIG BUSINESS. And they like being in Utah and other select states where they only need one parent's signature to accept a child and the accompanying $$$$$.
-
Also, by the way, the child was born in New Hampshire, and his mother moved to California with him after the divorce. My husband had no say in that either.
-
Has Red Cliff's been cooperative in sharing status information on your son? Since he is a minor, one would think that both parents should have same access to information about their son. If they haven't one would think you could make this a civil action in court. Guessing that there aren't any lawyers reading this forum who would care to comment.
-
HA! I doubt there are any lawyers prepared to take on the booming Wilderness Therapy BUSINESS. Yes, Redcliff has complied with our requests for SOME information. We are still trying to get the facts on the child's "abduction"....which contract escort service was hired, where he was abducted from, his demeanor, his flight information, etc. For some reason, they are dragging their feet on this one. When we ask for anything from them, it takes a while to get a response, and in a few instances we were ignored altogether. Suddenly they are starting to question if we are "authorized" to receive this information.
Although it appears our hands are tied, I do have good news (No, I didn't save a bunch of money on car insurance). The child's assigned therapist is spectacular. We get to talk to her for 15 minutes a week, and she is just wonderful. She tells it like it is. She really cares. Her focus is entirely on the kids. I only wish the Redcliff organization as a whole followed her example.
Stay tuned for the continuing saga.....
-
As it turns out, it's a good thing we were denied the court order to remove the child from Redcliff. My husband had spoken to their director this past Monday, and confirmed he could be released if we just showed up with a court order, and since the jurisdiction over custody is here in NH, we figured that would be it. The director promised to get back with my husband, once he was able to confirm the child's mother had signed a release to give him information (it's in the file)....and THEN he could tell us the name of the agency who provided the "escort". We waited.....waited some more. My husband finally called him AGAIN and now it's yet a DIFFERENT story. NOW he says (after consulting counsel again) that we'd need a court order from UTAH. One week before they only needed a court order....the week before that they didn't even NEED a court order.....but now we'd have to go file a petition in UTAH. My husband asked him if he would please put that in writing for our records. Declined. Nothing more in writing. So my husband asked him if he even checked in the file for the authorization, as he said he would. This just keeps getting better & better. Now he is not willing to even TELL him IF he is on the list of people authorized to get information. To tell him whether he IS or ISN'T authorized would be a privacy violation, I guess. But WHY is he doing this when I am sitting here looking at a COPY of the actual authorization, and my husband is listed there! :eek: So, he is not authorized to know he is authorized. Does this make any sense? We have tried to get information from the sending & receiving states' offices that handle the Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children. They handle the paperwork required to send kids from one state to another for purposes such as wilderness therapy. Due to privacy matters, they cannot tell him if his son is on file anywhere. This is required by law, and it's my understanding from research that the receiving state has to approve accepting the child based on the information provided. And they must approve it before the child can be moved from one state to another. We will continue to pursue this issue until we are confident all laws were complied with. Redcliff gave us the number of their attorney, if we needed any additional information, and we called but got no answer. It just rang and then a mechanical voice said they couldn't take the call or something like that, and that "Your call will be terminated now". This is worse than hitting a brick wall. We still have not received any mail from the child, although we learned from his counselor that he DID send mail. Redcliff confirmed today that his mail to us IS going directly to the mother, and it's up to her to send it on to us, if she chooses. No exceptions for the OTHER parent to receive mail directly. I guess it would inconvenience Redcliff to make that exception. We aren't allowed to see him, speak with him, and now his mail to us is intercepted. One of the child's field instructors took photos of him and emailed them to the mother. We heard that he wrote his mother a very long letter, begging to be brought home. It's so sad, and we feel so helpless.
-
Dear lord.
I hope your husband will sue them into bankruptcy. The total disregard of parental rights is unconsionable. Show em what tough love and consequences looks like.
When I contacted the state ICPC office I didn't 'ask' for info. I filed a complaint stating my son had been placed in violation. They hemmed and hawed, and as it turned out, didn't even know how the law read or how to interpret it, much less enforce it. They defered to the receiving state who claimed that the facility was a private boarding school, therefore exempt. And it's not their role to go after programs that are wrongly classified.
Brings back some very painful memories.
-
Anonymous said ----"HA! I doubt there are any lawyers prepared to take on the booming Wilderness Therapy BUSINESS."----
One day in the very near future, there will be at least one more lawyer out there (me) who is fully aware of and understands the illegal, unethical, and inhumane activites of programs like the one you describe. And I have ever intention of fighting them once I have enough experience to do so.
I realize this is no help to you now. And I dont know enough law in this area to be remotely useful to you. But I hope that information, that just maybe more lawyers ARE enlightened about the injustice occuring in these programs, gives you some comfort.
I've read all your messages on this thread and just wanted to wish you luck. And I also wanted to say...get the most experienced and aggressive attorney you can find, if you haven't already, and dont let up. ::rainbow::
-
Thanks for the commentary. From the research I've done, it looks like a lot of these programs are having an identity crisis. They don't know which category they fall into, and don't understand how the Interstate Compact applies to them. In this case, it's a bit of a hint that their application packet includes the IC form. If this is not complied with properly is it a Federal offense?
We are desperate. My husband hasn't eaten in three days, and I could pack my clothes in the bags under his eyes. Finally, a relative of the mother emailed us some photos of the child, taken last week at Redcliff. He looked so skinny, sunken in, dirty, and hot. I couldn't stand it. I haven't stopped crying since. I don't know how his mother sleeps at night. I just can't comprehend how she could do something like this to her own child, when he just plain doesn't deserve it. She needs to trade places with him. They made him smile for the picture, I know his fake smile. His face didn't even look the same. It broke my heart, and my husband was crushed.
We hadn't given any thought to a lawsuit. At least, not against Redcliff. We felt they had just made some really bad choices in accepting the child, when there were red flags all over the application. They were very slow to respond to questions or requests, and at some point, they quit responding at all. We've been immersed in trying to find a way to get him out, dealing with a crazy Family Court system (which was apparently a total waste of time, effort and money, since they NOW say it has to be a court order from UTAH). We have so much documentation, we're running out of room to store it all. Until recently, they seemed to be okay with sharing information. But they still chose to ignore the findings of the psychological evaluation which stated this was contraindicated. But now, things are changing. And not for the better. Now they are basically saying the fact that the parents have JOINT legal custody means NOTHING. They are treating my husband like an intruder in his son's life. Now they are telling us things that just don't even sound LEGAL, but refuse to confirm it in writing. Usually if someone won't stand behind a statement in writing, they are afraid of something. We have been allocated 15 minutes per week to get progress reports from his counselor, and that's been our lifeline. I'm afraid they will take that away from us now. That would be like a stake through my husband's heart.
I did get one chuckle today. The guy at Redcliff said he has a young son, and he's going to put his son through the "program" when he's older, just for the great experience of it all. My fantasy would be to open my own wilderness therapy camp in NH, have an unrelated third party sign a consent form and pay to enroll HIS INNOCENT SON in it, have a couple of paid strangers abduct his son without his knowledge, and remove him from his home and bring him to ME. I could show his child a really good, character-building wilderness experience. I would let him eat plain oatmeal every morning, and if he was really good, I might give him a chance to earn some sugar or spices (no kidding, they actually DO this). We'd hike all day in extreme temperatures, stop somewhere and dig a latrine, and sleep under a tarp. I'd hire a licensed social worker to visit the child once a week and talk to him. I would give him a 15 minute report on his son's progress once a week, but he could not see his son or speak to him for 30 - 60+ days. He could send his son letters, but his son's letters back to him would be routed through his worst enemy to decide IF he should receive them. He'd just have to take MY WORD for it that his son is safe and doing just fine. I wonder how he would feel. Would he be angry? Would he be hurt, knowing he couldn't help his child? I honestly don't know. He's just a businessman. Do businessmen cry? Maybe they only cry when they lose money.
I'm sorry. I'm just blowing off steam. And I'm sleep-deprived. We'll be spending the weekend hashing this out, and trying to figure out the next step. This just can't go on much longer. My husband is not going to survive this if we can't do something effective very soon.
Thanks for the support! WE NEED IT!!!!
-
***They are treating my husband like an intruder in his son's life.***
I can so relate to this. It's only words until you have lived it. It was the most surreal experience I've ever had. Phone rings on Monday morning and a total stranger informs me that my son has been enrolled in their program, would be there 18 months (extended to 22), and laid out the rules of communication for the next few months. Oh, and of course, hopes that I will be supportive, because that is what's in my son's best interest.
My head was swirling. I couldn't think.
When I could finally formulate a sentence I asked him if it was a psychiatric hospital. No. Who had dx'd my son ODD? THEY had, based on his father's complaints. How convenient!
Overnight I lost total contact with my son. His letters were choreographed and talked of his 'therapeutic' goals. It was someone else's words. Not my son's. And not positive or comforting. When the calls finally began they were monitored. He was able to tell me how confused he was, but most complaints were interrupted- manipulation. He couldn't figure out what they expected of him. He was in a highly distressed state.
Toward the end I rarely received my calls. I was forbidden from calling the facility. All calls had to go through their corp attorney. This because I reported them to state aurhorities for operating without a license.
When I finally saw him for the first time in 3 months he looked like a refugee. Thin, grey as a lizard, dirrhea for 3 days. Had been on restriction the better part of the prior month, subsisting on dry cereal, white bread and cheese sandwiches for lunch and dinner... provided he didn't loose a meal as punishment. We cried a lot during the visit. I promised him I'd do everything I could to get him out. My heart ached to see what they had done to him and I shuttered to think what he'd be like after 2 years. It was truly unbelievable. You can read more of the details in the HLA thread.
To this day I have never received a single document I requested from my son's file.
I'm so sorry that ya'll have to go through the same thing. Hopefully it will only be a couple of months and not years.
Keep us posted.
Oh! What was the rationale for needing a court order from Utah. Sorry if I missed the explanation. Does a Utah court have jurisdiction over the divorce decree?
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-08-12 21:38 ]
-
Deborah, I can't even imagine what you've gone through! What a horrific experience! For us, it's only been three weeks (so far) but we feel like our hearts have been ripped out. I hope you didn't go through that alone. We are so grateful we have each other to lean on. We keep reassuring each other that Redcliff has a good safety record, and that his son is (or WAS) physically strong and healthy. But we are scared to death what this is doing to him emotionally. He knows he is there because he has a deeply troubled narcissistic mother. I've written his Redcliff counselor, who fully understands his situation now, and asked her if it's possible to teach him coping skills, and skills to manage or mitigate his mother's rages, before he goes home. If he can't learn how to calm her down, he'll go home one day, and the next day he'll wake up to "escorts" again. Redcliff has the written report saying his relationship with his mother leaves him in an almost chronic expectation of attack. He is a victim, Redcliff Ascent knows this, and they are contributing to his continued victimization in my opinion.
The Utah thing. It doesn't make sense. The jurisdiction over custody remains in the control of New Hampshire. Utah has no jurisdiction over this that I can see. They refuse to put this in writing. The last thing we got in writing was the "new and improved" list of requirements to be allowed to remove him (it changes all the time), which was faxed on 8/2, and it said an order from a court of competent jurisdiction. This is somewhat nebulous, but NH has jurisdiction over the child's custody. Now they insist only Utah can compel them to release him...but again, they won't put this in writing. They could easily choose to release this child. They simply WON'T.
The bottom line is: Redcliff decided to accept this child based on a highly questionable and incomplete application, his mother saying he was troubled, and a signature to charge the credit card of her 3rd ex-husband. They disregarded the findings of his evaluating psychologist. At that point, they accepted responsibility for this. Morally, at least (legally remains to be seen) they have no right to deny my husband access to his son. But they very arrogantly state their "policies" allow them to do so. I find it very hard to believe that any BUSINESS has the right to keep a parent from his child. It's the moral equivalent of kidnapping. None of this makes any sense.
I know there are children who are so out of control, their parents feel they have no choice but to send them away. I know they must AGONIZE over such a decision. They've sent their kids through intensive outpatient therapy, and worked hard to help them. But that's not the case here. Aside from a couple of "family counseling" sessions, no other avenues were explored. This was practically a FIRST COURSE OF ACTION. It's like swatting a fly with a bulldozer. He's a normal kid with an out-of-control mother. She is hoping he will return to her fully submissive and malleable.
:nworthy:
I really have to wonder how many parents have gone through this. This is not new to Redcliff, as they have a specific provision in their enrollment contract that addresses "WITHDRAWAL AS A RESULT OF A CUSTODY DISPUTE". I only have a faxed copy of this, and the print is so tiny and messy, it's hard to read. I'm trying to get a better copy. If any former Redcliff parents have a legible copy of this form, please let me know!!! But it looks like they charge an early termination fee of $750.00, and looks like there are no refunds of tuition...it's basically an agreement that they will accept NO liability for anything. Well, all I can say is my husband DIDN'T SIGN their agreement. Just as he DIDN'T SIGN their agreement to let them RESTRAIN his son, or prevent him from speaking to him, or seeing him, or bringing him home. The more I write, the more incensed I become.
It seems they are leaving us no choice. Unfortunately, legal action is slow, and the child will be out before we ever see a courtroom. But.....JUST MAYBE we can do something to keep this from happening to another parent and another innocent child. They CHOOSE to disregard the parent's rights, and the child's right to due process. And they are GETTING AWAY WITH IT. They have to be stopped.
-
Just a thought...
Since people are telling you things that they won't put in writing, are you recording your conversations? It's perfectly legal as long as ONE party is aware of the taping. Tapes like that can be powerful evidence.
I agree Family Court is complete BS. They kick the can down the road for months until it's too late, but wouldn't have acted anyway, in a timely or other fashion.
I support the advice you were given earlier in this thread. Retain an aggressive, experienced attorney and DON'T LET UP.
When it's all said and done, sue for compensatory and punitive damages and for legal fees.
Don't believe the lines that the program feeds you over where jurisdiction lies. Retain an attorney who WANTS to help you figure things out. Stonewalling, dissembling and outright prevarication are trademarks of the industry. don't let them play this game with you.
Most of all, realize that the law IS on your side, but getting civil servants to act is not an easy task. Light the fire under them. Also be aware that your gratification lies far down the road. You will have to stick it out.
These programs win by simply NOT LOSING. The longer they drag it out, the more money they make before they have to return the goose that lays their golden eggs.
You're looking at your WATCH, they're looking at the CALENDAR.
Good luck and stay strong...
-
Again I say call the Child Welfare Agency in that state they must respond to reports of abuse and or neglect that is the Federal Law. Also to deny mail to a child is not a parents option - it is a violation of their civil rights even people in prison get their mail. Often times programs may open the mail for only purposes of checking for drugs etc, but it is truly a violation of their civil rights.
Go get this child - go to the courts in Utah with an order from the Courts in NH and either they will honor it or will do their own.
Good luck.
Andrea
pfrr.org
-
I am not an expert in the Child custody/support law as it stands in America however it is my understanding there are inter state agreements in place. This is how they can collect child support no matter where child and parent are. Try one of the fathers rights sites. Maybe they can give you some ideas on what has or hasnt worked in the past for some of them.
-
****Morally, at least (legally remains to be seen) they have no right to deny my husband access to his son. But they very arrogantly state their "policies" allow them to do so. I find it very hard to believe that any BUSINESS has the right to keep a parent from his child. It's the moral equivalent of kidnapping. None of this makes any sense.****
That?s total bullshit and standard industry manipulation. Their policies have NO legal standing. In effect they are saying that the owner of the program allows them to do it.
They are colluding in the kidnapping of this boy and the violation of his father's rights.
My sons were involved with three different programs and all attempted to deny my rights, as per their father?s request.
What I learned during my ordeal- Your court ordered rights supersede any program?s policies re: contact and visitation, records, etc; unless they have been removed by another court order.
I suggest that you consider changing your strategy by showing up at the facility with decree in hand, stating that it is your court appointed time to visit your son and demand they release him. Get police back up if necessary. Don?t announce that you are coming. And do not, under any circumstances leave until he is in your custody. Go out into the field and find him if necessary.
Take him home and be done with it, unless mom decides to take issue.
If she?s stupid enough to do that, you?ve got ample documentation to show just cause for your action. Get your documentation in order in case it's needed.
You are absolutely correct, this is not the first time they have dealt with custody disputes. They are dragging it out as DJ stated. It?s simply not an issue for them unless a non-supportive parent has the time and resource to make it an issue.
Go get the boy on the next regularly scheduled time for a visit and defend yourself if that becomes necessary. Force THEM to take action to keep him there.
Kick some ass.
-
I hate to be the one to tell you this but Redcliff
may just be the beginning of your son's ordeal.
Redcliff seems to have an ongoing relationship
of some kind with an outfit called Hyde Schools.
They have campuses in Bath, Maine and Woodstock, Conn.
I know from other posters that Hyde sends kids
who they can't brainwash to Redcliff. I also
think that Redcliff uses Hyde as a sort of
"halfway house". Hyde's program is what I call
"gulag-lite", lots of forced exercise, lots of
staff and "Seniors" screaming in people's faces
and they even have a sort of "mini-wilderness"
in the summer. The good news is that it's not
lock-down so if your ex puts him there you might
have an easier time getting him out. Also since
you're located in NH you don't have to fight
long-distance so much.
Good luck,
TommyProperly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
-
Okay I took off my paper bag and I'm no longer anonymous. This has been so helpful I decided to register. I take responsibility for what I say, and I invite Redcliff Ascent to challenge me on any of it.
We're out of options for a quiet, polite solution to this. We can't document any abuse or neglect, and sure hope it stays that way. There was allegedly an Interstate Compact form signed, but nobody will acknowledge it. Family court in NH is so biased against men that we couldn't get an order from them to remove him. We DID get the order that we have full rights to all his information....but Redcliff doesn't care. If / When we could / couldn't get an order from Utah, it would be too late. We could just show up there, but we have no clue where to look for him. He's out in the middle of nowhere. Redcliff has little offices all over the place. But it takes them 24 hours to bring your child to a civilized place you can drive a vehicle to, and that's only when they will ALLOW you to pick him up. We don't get visitation time again until Christmas. And we couldn't get temporary physical custody to take him out and bring him home with us. So as far as the practical issues go, we're screwed.
This practice needs to be stopped, and it's all a matter of public awareness. It's ludicrous to think some BUSINESS ENTITY in another state, with minimal operating expenses (low-salary workers, lots of dried oats), and not even the expense of providing shelter for these children, has the right to separate a father from his son. Okay, they DO have expenses. They paid a firm to enhance their website, so they could get increased exposure and attract new clients. It worked. Their business has increased 30% since implementing this. Has the need for wilderness "therapy" increased 30% or are they just more appealing to a larger share of parents without a clue? Ahhh....the FOR-PROFIT teen "help" industry.
I'm digressing here....
We WILL find the most dedicated attorney we can find, one who has experience dealing with these programs. Our attorney died a few months ago, and we haven't had the need for one since. We do our own Family Court stuff, as we never win anyway. (A Commission conducted a study of family court fairness recently and in their report said many have complained of biased judges & Marital Masters in this area. Fathers don't stand a chance in Family Court here). We've never been in any court other than Family Court before, so we WILL need to find the most experienced attorney possible, and preferably one with long, jagged teeth. If we find we have no legal recourse to help this child, I will make it my personal crusade to spread the word about their policies, and their disregard for the rights of children & parents.
In the meantime we'll just try to comfort each other. We can't stop shaking long enough to sleep. We are like the walking dead.
-
The courts will intervene if it is a matter of health, welfare, and safety of this young person which it seems to be. Take the custody battle out of it, and put the child's health, welfare, and safety in the front and God they better react.
Andrea
-
What wonderful Drama! Reality show concept in a WebLog Format. I'd suggest contacting ABC, NBC, CBS to see if they would cover it. ABC has conflict since they are broadcasting Brat Camp. "Ok, let make fire with a stick, Take 7, ACTION" Oh, forgot about Fox. They may be interested. Not worthy of a reality Show? A REAL reality show... Let's see if 60 minutes is interested. How about 20-20...oops, Disney wouldn't go for that since they own Brat Camp. Maybe Oprah would take interest in the poor kids who are sent there by a misaligned parent who conspires to get back at their Ex-Spouse. Hmmmm, I can punish her/him by taking our kid and sending him off to boot camp...I mean brat camp....Oops I mean "Wilderness therapy Experience". This describes your kid doesn't it? You are saying he didn't deserve to be there? Just a pawn in the Battle of the Roses Chess Game?
It's time to pull out the punches. Call Dr. Phil. Have him get the disputing parents in front of him and he will fix it. If Dr. Phil is booked, Call Jerry Springer. He will take anything.
I've read this complete string, start to finish (I feel sorry for Deborah!). I read it again. No one is making money except the brat camps and maybe their lawyers. Who is REALLY caring for the kids. Why should they be punished to Hell on earth for the rest of their lives? Has anyone read Lord of the Flies lately or Catch 22? I think Mr. Golding and Mr. Heller did a great job.
Hey ACLU...Any Civil Liberties at Stake here? Any religious involvement? Do Brat Camps offer church services in the wilderness? Any Rabbi's, priests, pastors or mullah's concerned about their flock being in Utah? Is there anyone at Red Cliff's who is Morman, a member of the Church of LDS or a graduate of Brigham Young University? Any $$ going from Rich Jewish Parents in Connecticut to Red Cliffs to the Church in Salt Lake City? Is that foreign exchange?
Seriously folks...Don't forget about the Kids. They are NOT always Guilty!
-
***Any religious involvement? Do Brat Camps offer church services in the wilderness?
Yeh, some religious involvement with certain programs. Not sure about Redcliff, wilderness in general.
***Any Rabbi's, priests, pastors or mullah's concerned about their flock being in Utah?
Should be. Heavy mormon/republican influence in the industry http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 25&forum=9 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2825&forum=9)
****Is there anyone at Red Cliff's who is Morman, a member of the Church of LDS or a graduate of Brigham Young University?
Oh yes. At least six. One is a faculty member.
http://www.redcliffascent.com/staff.html (http://www.redcliffascent.com/staff.html)
***Any $$ going from Rich Jewish Parents in Connecticut to Red Cliffs to the Church in Salt Lake City? Is that foreign exchange?
Dunno. But there?s a lot of money going to the church through tithing by program owners/staff, and a large amount to politicians
***Hey ACLU...Any Civil Liberties at Stake here?
I wouldn't discourage anyone from contacting every org/agency they can think of, but my effort was fruitless. Here are a few of the responses of those who even bothered to respond:
ACLU
Thank you for writing to the ACLU of Texas. Generally we don't handle family law issues, and this part about the school sounds out of the scope of things we handle, too. My suggestion would be that you contact children's advocacy
groups, and possibly even MHMR organizations, in case they have some experience with this particular school or the kind of situation you're
talking about. I'm sorry I don't have any specific groups in mind, but I would suggest you try looking on the web for these kinds of groups.
Sorry we can't be of more assistance to you.
Youth Law Center
Dear Ms. XXXXXXXXXXX,
I'm sorry but we cannot help you.
Sincerely, Mamie Yee
Alexia Parks
Two top lawyers in this field are in Texas: Jim Moriarty, Houston, TX, 800-677-7095;
and Win Turley, Dallas, (214)691-4025. They do handle out of state cases. [Neither interested]
One of the most useful responses I received:
PTAVE
Hi Deborah,
Thank you to writing to PTAVE. I am writing to you as a social worker, and as a counselor who interned in a "therapeutic" residential home which was more punitive than "therapeutic". However, I live and work in a part of the
country where it is illegal to hit or physically assault children, so thankfully the kids here do not have to suffer that form of abuse.
You were not specific about what type of abuse your son may be experiencing (physical, sexual, emotional) so I cannot be specific in my answer. However, if you believe that abuse is in fact occuring and the TX state Dept. of Youth Services is failing to take proper action, you must see legal advice. Unfortunatly I am unaware of any lawyers in your area who are child advocates. You will need to consult with several lawyers until you find one dedicated to children's rights. I assume that you probably will need to proceed with legal action in the state in which the school is located, however, I am not certain of this.
You can help your case by calling your son's program and asking them to mail or FAX you a mission statement that defines their "therapeutic" goals and the specific manner in which they assist children in reaching these goals. Behavior Modification programs often have sweet sounding mision statements in order to impress their funding and referral sources. It is well known that therapeutic services to adolescents must be based on a model that treats trauma, views negative behaviors as a response to trauma and employs positive reinforcement in order to correct those behaviors. Ask about their
"therapeutic" orientation, framework and techniques. Often these places have young kids out of high school or otherwise scantly trained workers without degrees in psychology working for them, providing "therapy". Ask how workers
are trained.
I hope some of this is helpful. Please continue to advocate in your son's behalf if you feel that he may be at risk. Many children come out of
residential facilities with a strong, angry, hard edge to them. It is like a callous that they have learned to build up after repeated violations of
their human dignity by staff and fellow cohorts.
XXXXXXXXX
Social Worker
-
On 2005-08-13 18:45:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
Someone already mentioned Hyde Park is associated with Redcliffe. I had a boy from Three Springs go to Hyde Park for a year after he graduated. I saw him one more time for some aftercare, and asked him how he liked the place, and the response was vague. He sort of looked like one of those strung out Vietnam Vets with a 1000 yard stare.
The punitive boarding school is called simply
Hyde School, not Hyde Park, unless we're talking
about different places. Note that I said PUNITIVE
and not theraputic. No therapy happens in these
places.Don't hate the media. Become the media
--Jello Biafra
-
It's Hyde School. Only link under 'TRADITIONAL' BS. How'd they get that classification?
RTC
Discovery Ranch
THERAPEUTIC BSs
Telos RTC
Discovery Academy
San Cristobal Ranch Academy
Benchmark Young Adult School
http://www.redcliffascent.com/resources.html (http://www.redcliffascent.com/resources.html)
-
On 2005-08-13 13:39:00, tommyfromhyde1 wrote:
"I hate to be the one to tell you this but Redcliff
may just be the beginning of your son's ordeal.
Redcliff seems to have an ongoing relationship
of some kind with an outfit called Hyde Schools."
I hate to break it to you but they also have a relationship with an even scarier outfit called Discovery Academy, which they part-own. Check out this forum for tales of racist bigotry, harsh punishments, beatings and rapes (both heterosexual and homosexual varieties):
http://www.discovery-academy-forum.com (http://www.discovery-academy-forum.com)
-
On 2005-08-14 11:23:00, Deborah wrote:
"
It's Hyde School. Only link under 'TRADITIONAL' BS. How'd they get that classification?
They get it because they accept a lot of non-gulag
kids (i.e. siblings). Also, they recruit talented
jocks from the ghetto as ringers for their sports
teams with "scholarships". BTW most of the day
to day forced exercise I referred to happens in
(brutal) sports practices. That way when a kid
complains about it he's dismissed as "complaining
about sports". That spot between my shoulder
blades still hurts from being shoved along on runs
whenever I think about it.Religion is just mind control.
--George Carlin, comedian
-
I remember having a student who could not be released from the program until both parents were in agreement about where he would go next. The student was from Tennessee and I believe the parents lived there too. And so, the student was in wilderness for nineteen weeks. He hiked over 500 miles. He was a great kid, took it all in stride, realized it was a battle of the wills between his parents.
I can hear the conversations between Redcliffe and the mother about placement after wilderness. Euwww, Im sorry this is happening to you and husband and son. Keep copius notes, record converstions if possible and try not to come across as too agitated or agressive with Redcliffe, unfortunately, theyve got the ball and are following the lead of mom.
Best of luck, and keep good notes. As lawyers like to say "If its not written down, it never happened."
-
Well, there's their first strike. Fraud.
Traditional boarding schools do not warehouse kids 24/7/365, provide any form of therapy or BM, do not interfere with contact with parents, do not deny home visits for academic incompletes, blah, blah, blah.
We all know the many reasons they do not fit the catergory.
How does this benefit them? Do you know if they are licensed Tommy?
-
We're so grateful for all the responses, advice and input! Really.....THANKS!!! You're helping to keep us sane!
From your input, we realize the immediate need to inform everyone, in writing, that we won't tolerate him being placed in any follow-up facility. This may help us avoid future tragedy for this child.
Here's the issue....We heard (through the grapevine/spies) that if it looks like the child will need to stay at Redcliff beyond the initial 30 day minimum, the enrolling parent is notified by "Day 20", and has to agree & make arrangements to pay for the extra time. Rumor has it, this has already happened, and they have estimated two additional weeks. As of now, it appears his overall stay could be 45 days (which would make him 3 weeks late entering high school). And that's assuming he's finished the Program then. Could be longer. They charge $425 per day until they reach 60 days (that's a lot of beans & oats!)...then it goes down to $175 per day.
Soooo.....Every extra day of high school he misses gets him further & further behind his peers. He's not strong academically to begin with. And having had this horrific experience is not going to help. I wonder if they will use this situation to justify placing him in one of their boarding schools. Will they say he needs to stay even longer at Redcliff just so they can totally screw up his education, and then offer Discovery or one of their other affiliates as an "alternative"? This sounds like something out of a conspiracy movie, but from what I'm hearing, it's possible, even likely.
I am now essentially a full-time, dedicated researcher of Redcliff's history, their policies, their legal dealings, etc. I want to make sure this doesn't happen to any other parent or child. I am learning some EXTREMELY interesting things about the way they operate....such as: Parents sign an agreement to allow Redcliff to restrain, detain, and control the child with reasonable physical force. This can be used to prevent the child from running away, or in any other circumstances Redcliff considers appropriate. The parents waive any claims for injuries, illnesses or other damages to the child. Doesn't sound like a loving environment to me. I'd want someone taking care of my child who would accept responsibility for keeping him safe and healthy.
They also accept enrollment applications from anyone who (truthfully or not) represents themselves as the child's parent(s), and they are absolved of any liability for the misrepresentation. They are not required to verify or validate ANY information given to them by the enrolling parties. They say in the contract that they shall be entitled to rely on the representations of the signing "sponsors" with respect to all the information they are given....and that the "sponsors" agree to be forthright and truthful. I just don't think that's quite enough due diligence for a business charged with caring for troubled children. They should AT LEAST be willing to make a few phone calls (and maybe the FIRST one they should make is to the child's clueless father!), verify or validate SOMETHING about the information on the application, and bear SOME responsibility. I think that in cases of missing children, a wilderness therapy facility might be a good place to start looking for the child. What an effective way to hide a child! They take your WORD for it that you have the legal right to place the child, and the child is stashed away somewhere in vast miles of desert for a good long stay.
They are also authorized to transport your child by every imaginable means, including using the PERSONAL vehicles, motorcycles, or 4-wheelers owned by their EMPLOYEES. The only method not specifically mentioned was dragging.
And of course, the enrolling parent is responsible for expenses related to hunting down and recapturing the child if he escapes their clutches. From articles I've read, this is not uncommon.
Overall, why would any intelligent, loving parent agree to this stuff? I can understand if a parent is truly frightened for their child's life, and has exhausted all other options. But in our case, this was just used as a babysitting service for the mother. There is no legitimate reason for him to be there.
Redcliff bases their program on removing anything that could be DISTRACTING to the child....TV, computer, phones, good food, a comfortable bed, friends and family...so the child can concentrate on himself and his issues. And this makes it very easy for Redcliff to operate. But I don't believe for one minute that it's necessary to strip a child of every comfort of life along with his very dignity, to help him. Aren't the kids "distracted" by having to build fires, cook their own tasteless gruel, using the bathroom outdoors with no privacy, suffering and hiking in extreme temperatures carrying heavy loads? I sure would be distracted. I'd be SO distracted by this, that after a while, I would just give up and comply with anything they asked....Agree to whatever they wanted....surrender my dignity....cease any normal thought process. Hey, then I'd be ready to graduate from the program!
And shame on anyone who would put their child into a facility that had participated in the Brat Camp TV series. I haven't seen it myself, but I understand the original series was with British kids at Redcliff. If this is THERAPY (vs. punishment), since when is therapy televised? These kids were not old enough to legally sign away their rights, so their parents did in exchange for the tuition. Isn't that like a form of prostitution? Unfortunately in our society, you have to prove you are proficient to operate a motor vehicle....But anyone is allowed to reproduce.
-
Brilliant work and analysis NCL.
Yep, they may well try to keep him beyond time for school to start. Starting late should not be an issue. Hire a tutor.
The contract stuff is pretty standard as is much of what you shared. They collaborate at the industry assoc meetings about how to word things and avoid. Perfecting manipulation.
Here are some links for your research:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5433&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5433&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2843&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2843&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7312&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7312&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#89754 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8765&forum=9&start=0#89754)
Here?s my working file on Redcliff, which I haven?t updated in some time. Please post links to anything relevant you might find. Next step would be to search the players. Where have they worked before, etc.
REDCLIFF ASCENT St. George, Provo, Springville, Utah
Website: http://www.redcliffascent.com/ (http://www.redcliffascent.com/)
NATSAP Member
Member NATWC
http://www.natwc.org/camps/Redcliff%20A ... 20Inc..htm (http://www.natwc.org/camps/Redcliff%20Ascent,%20Inc..htm)
2/1994 Darrell Lewis, Admissions, describes services
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /np04.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1994/2/np04.html)
7/1995 Desperate for summer staff. 75 teens out on trips.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1995/8/seen01.html)
10/1995 Matt Fitzgerald Ex Adm Dir, Lon?s Review, tight/flexible enough to handle any child
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1995/10/visit01.html)
6/1996 Darrell Lewis, homepage running for six mo, had appr 2,000 hits, avg one inquiry per week.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews07.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1996/6/news07.html)
10/1996 Review sent to Strugglingteens by Mitch Cole, spotless record
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews04.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1996/10/news04.html)
10/1998 Add?l phase for graduates and 2-3 monthers
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1998/10/seen01.html)
12/1999 Scott and Steve Peterson co-founders, Authorities search for Runaway boys
http://www.teenliberty.org/RedCliffs.htm (http://www.teenliberty.org/RedCliffs.htm)
12/2000 Charles Siebert,NY Times Mag,reports on trip to Redcliff Ascent in Utah to follow up national news stories about several youth who had run away
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/1/seen01.html)
2/2000 Lengthy article in FREEP founded 11 yrs ago for juvenile justice sentencing. By 1993, cofounder Scott Petersen had received so many inquiries, he opened it to private citizens.
http://www.freep.com/news/childrenfirst ... 000217.htm (http://www.freep.com/news/childrenfirst/ntough17_20000217.htm)
3/2000 Lengthy article at Outside Magazine
http://www.outsidemag.com/magazine/2000 ... dway1.html (http://www.outsidemag.com/magazine/200003/200003hardway1.html)
7/2001 Steve Nadauld, Dir of Adm, formalized curriculum around the values of ?Courage, Self Discipline, Respect, Honesty, Work Ethic, Trust and Compassion,? and have updated their brochure, video and web site to reflect the new changes.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/2001/9/seen01.html)
3/2004 Guardian article about Brat Camp- UK teens sent to RA. Quotes Stettler, ?"Each camp has at least an annual review?two unannounced monitoring visits. But Skyline Journey, where that child died, had been reviewed on a regular basis." Stettler is convinced the wilderness camps are a useful tool. "They are not a panacea? "The idea is that they take a kid from a defiant, rebellious, non-workable state to one where they are workable. That's when the work really starts, when the kid wants to make some changes."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,36 ... 44,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1180944,00.html)
[BTW, the Utah DHS promotes Wilderness at their website. Search WWF for Stettler to see how many times he has overlooked violations.]
Personal experiences with Redcliff
http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/threa ... &start=226 (http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/thread-view.asp?threadid=225&start=226)
-
There's a Hyde day school in D.C.- it's a chartered school, seems (from their website) they try recruit athletes from the mainstream, inner-city population. No mention of being anything other than a regular school, no mention of any church affiliation.
-
Here's an article that Deborah didn't mention:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine ... rness.html (http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20001217mag-wilderness.html)
Sentenced to Nature
More and more parents are sending their unruly teenagers to be tamed by wilderness. There's always the chance, though, that they'll come back wilder than before.
By CHARLES SIEBERT Photographs by ROBERT YAGER
We'd been hiking all morning with full packs, up and down the rough hills of the Escalante Desert in southwestern Utah. It was mid-May, and yet the noontime temperature had already reached into the 90's, the heat driving each of us further into our own thoughts and walking rhythms, a ragged, single-file brigade of capped heads bowed to the rugged terrain, the bright red bloom of an occasional springtime cactus flower only pointing up the otherwise hard-bitten cast of the flora around us: juniper, sagebrush, tamarisk and pinyon.
"So how did you end up here?" I asked the hiker in front of me, a 17-year-old boy from Colorado named Pat. This was Pat's 16th day in the Escalante. He had each one marked off in pen on the right leg of his khakis, pants that melded perfectly with the color of the desert soil and with his own dust-caked skin.
"I just stopped caring," he said, nervously rubbing dirt from the tattoo on his forearm. "I did lots of drugs, dyed my hair blue, fought with my brother. I slashed his car tires. He tried to kill me a couple of times."
"And who brought you here?"
"Well," he began indifferently. "I'm crashed out in my bedroom one afternoon, and my father comes in and says: 'Come on, get up. You, me and mom are going car shopping.' I didn't think about it. Just got in the car and crashed out again. When I woke up it was 3 a.m., and I'm looking around thinking, Who shops for cars at this hour? I tried smashing my way out, but all the doors and windows were on auto-lock. The next thing I know we're pulling up to some place in the middle of nowhere. My father tells me to go inside and get the papers for the car. As soon as I get out, he screeches off. Something, huh?"
Pat and my other hiking companions that day were all members of a group known as the Grizzlies, enrollees in the RedCliff Ascent Outdoor Therapy Program for wayward teenagers, a rigorous survival training and self-development regimen in the wilds of the Escalante: day after day of hiking for a minimum of two months, setting up and breaking down camp, gathering water from nearly dry stream beds and dank, shallow wells; starting fires with nothing more than sticks and rocks.
RedCliff's groups contain anywhere from five to eight students, male and female, between 13 and 18 years of age. Given neonative monikers like the Bobcats, the Coyotes or the Grizzlies, some consist of adjudicated kids, the bulk of these lower to lower-middle class, who, for relatively minor crimes like drug offenses or petty theft, have been assigned to RedCliff by judges in Utah's Department of Youth Corrections. The rest of the groups, kept separate from the adjudicated kids, are "private students," sons and daughters of wealthy parents from around the country who can afford RedCliff's $265-a-day expense - kids who have become so unruly that their parents felt they had no other recourse but to submit them to what might be called the pure rebuke of the wild.
Wilderness therapy has become an increasingly popular approach to dealing with teenage delinquency, with more than 1,000 programs nationwide. The industry's growth has not come without controversy. Back in the late 80's and early 90's, when there was none of the governmental regulation and oversight to which places like RedCliff are now subjected, three students enrolled in Escalante-based programs died from being driven too hard in extreme conditions by their instructors. All three programs were subsequently shut down and a series of laws passed, setting minimum health and safety standards and requiring regular inspections.
But despite these incidents and ongoing debate about whether this form of "tough love" behavior modification isn't, in fact, too tough on its subjects, wilderness-therapy programs continue to thrive. What they offer is, in many ways, a recapitulation of countless ancient tribal coming-of-age rituals, conjoining two timeless and universal struggles: to survive in the wilderness and to survive adolescence. But somehow in the modern civilized context, the phenomenon seems quintessentially American. Only in a nation with sufficient amounts of extant wilderness and societal anomie could the former be so regularly prevailed upon as an antidote to the latter.
Educational consultants and juvenile-court judges across the country now regularly turn to programs like RedCliff Ascent. So firmly established has this new avenue of rehabilitation become that there is now a cottage industry of private "escort services," professional abductors hired by parents to come into their homes in the middle of the night and whisk their children away to what are hoped will be life-altering turns with the wild's otherness.
Of course, these turns have the potential to be for the worse. Wilderness is, by definition, an uncultivated, often ungovernable classroom, one that can sometimes inspire the very wildness it's supposed to quell. Indeed, violent outbursts and panicked escape attempts are fairly common occurrences in wilderness therapy. Last year, in an incident that brought national media attention to this desolate corner of the Southwest, eight RedCliff students in a group called the Mustangs assaulted their counselors and then fled into the wilderness, setting off a four-day search-and-rescue operation in snow and near-zero temperatures. It was in the wake of that incident that I decided to head out to Utah this past spring to witness firsthand if and how modern-day teenage disaffection can be assuaged by timeless wilderness.
The Redcliff ascent field office in Beryl Junction comprises two single-story, cream-colored prefab buildings alongside Utah's Highway 56 in the middle of a vast sagebrush-filled valley. Except for the sign by the road, the only indication that you haven't arrived at a couple of abandoned farm-equipment sheds is the small note posted on the building nearest the road: "Parents" it reads, above an arrow that points up a stone ramp leading to a set of aluminum-sided front doors.
Inside there's a sofa-lined reception room decorated with Native American artifacts and weavings. A blackboard at the far end of the room is used for instructor-training seminars or for group sessions between parents and RedCliff psychologists. In a corner just to the left of the blackboard there is a small assortment of three- to four-foot-long tree limbs. Students find and use them out in the wilderness for digging fire pits. These, however, were wielded by students against their field instructors. The RedCliff staff keeps them around as mementos of the nature of their line of work.
"That one was used in the assault last December," Scott Schill, RedCliff's field director, said as he showed me around the office one morning. The place was humming with activity. It was a Wednesday, which is staff changeover day; fresh instructors were heading out to replace their counterparts in the field.
"Another kid came after me with this one," Schill said in his Tennessee drawl as he took the burnished limb in his hands. "He took a swing at me, but I was able to wrestle him down. After a local sheriff took him into custody, a judge told him, 'You're going to go back and finish that program,' and he eventually became one of my best students."
Making our way through a set of doors off the reception room, we entered a small staff kitchen and dining area, then turned down a narrow hallway leading to an opposing set of staff offices and, behind those, the RCA logistics office. It houses the main switchboard and radio receiver through which the staff keeps tabs on the groups - often as many as eight or nine at one time - out roaming a 560-square-mile expanse of high desert.
On the wall above the radio receiver is what's known as the board. It lists counseling assignments for the week, the names of the students in each group and, through a multicolored code of symbols, the details about the physical and psychological state of each student. The code applies to private and adjudicated kids alike. Call it the democratizing effect of duress. A red dot by a name, for example, indicates that a student has yet to get the physical and psychological evaluation required by the state of all enrollees before they can begin the program's curriculum. A yellow dot means students are still in the "polliwog phase," the mandatory 72-hour acclimation period during which new students are still adjusting to the Escalante's thin air and are restricted to only short hikes.
And then there are what can literally be called the trouble signs. A brown dot, for instance, signifies "a sitter," a kid given to bowing out of hikes altogether and generally resisting cooperation and advancement. A little hangman's noose means a suicide risk; a black dot means a kid is a threat to run, although in the Escalante, a black dot is just about synonymous with a hangman's noose.
I was sitting in the logistics office one evening when a new arrival came in, a 15-year-old named Lorena. Like those of many of RedCliff's enrollees, Lorena's parents are divorced. She lives with her mother, who opted for sending Lorena to RedCliff Ascent over a stay in a psychiatric ward, the only other alternative offered to her by a judge after a series of offenses - truancy, theft, drinking and drug use - eventually landed her in juvenile court.
She'd been dropped off by her mother only an hour earlier and had already been divested of all trappings of her former life. Upon arrival at RedCliff, kids are taken to the back supply shed and stripped and searched for any concealed drugs or weapons. Their clothes, jewelry and other accessories are inventoried and stored away. A few random items of clothing are kept aside in a separate sealed bag to be passed under the noses of RedCliff's hunting dogs should the need arise.
'When I went through the strip-search and then got put in the truck, blindfolded,' said one 16-year-old, 'I knew this was no Outward Bound.'
Kids are then given standard issue khakis, a T-shirt, a bandanna and a pair of hiking boots. They get a tarp, a wool blanket, 20 feet of parachute cord and 12 feet of strap, and from those items must learn to construct a backpack in which to store their sleeping bags and ground pads, water bottles, water purifier drops, enamel cups and week's supply of food: rice, lentils, raisins and oats. They get books that outline the survival skills they must master in order to graduate. And they get rules. Lots of them - everything from the straightforward (No. 7: "No intimate relationships") to the abstract (No. 13: "No questions pertaining to the future").
Lorena - about 5-foot-4 with long strawberry-blond hair clasped behind her head, a few stray strands falling forward around a flushed, cherubic face - stood in the logistics-office doorway, eyes red with tears, staring off as some last bits of paperwork were being processed. She looked like a prisoner of war, the legs of her ill-fitting khakis bunched atop untied hiking boots. On the upper thigh of one of her pant legs she'd already penned the words "I love my mother." I looked up at the board on the wall above her. She'd been assigned to the Grizzlies. Alongside her name were red and yellow dots and a hangman's noose.
As RedCliff drop-offs go, Lorena's was relatively painless. Schill told me about a girl who arrived at the field office one afternoon with her parents and her brother and sister. She'd been told that the family was going to Disneyland, but that her father just had to make a brief side trip for business.
"The parents are in talking with me here in my office," Schill said. "The daughter, meanwhile, is standing out in the hallway with her headphones on and this bored, can-we-get-the-hell-out-of-here expression on her face. Then she starts looking at the pictures and clippings on the wall about our program. All of a sudden she's saying, 'Hey, this is one of those places they send kids to!' And when she looks up, everyone in her family is staring at her. They all start backing away toward the door and she's freaking, cursing out her parents. She cried for hours after they left."
It was an hour-and-a-half drive from the Redcliff office to my drop-off point with the Grizzlies in the field: an unforgiving expanse of mountainous desert punctuated only by the occasional jeep trail and, along its far southeastern edge, a stretch of Union Pacific railroad track connecting the town of Milford with a long-ago deserted iron-mining outpost called Lund. It is, for wilderness-therapy purposes, a perfectly vast tract of nothingness, and yet for good measure, all RedCliff novitiates are delivered into it blindfolded. This prevents a kid from picking out any landmarks by which to negotiate an escape back out to what little semblance of civilization exists in the area.
"I remember planning my escape the whole ride out," a 16-year-old named Michael told me one afternoon as he stood proudly over the fire he'd just started with his bowstring, palm rock and fire stick. Michael's father, a market manager for an international shipping concern, had hired an escort service to get his son in the middle of the night from their home in Connecticut. A lithe, handsome boy with clear, curly-lashed blue eyes, Michael said he had already agreed with his father to go to RedCliff, though he didn't think he really meant to send him.
"I was so high on drugs and alcohol," he said, "I really didn't know what I was agreeing to. I thought it would be like Outward Bound or something. Next thing I know there's this strange person in my room holding the bag of clothes my father had packed and I'm being taken to this place. When I went through the strip-search and then got put in the truck, blindfolded, I knew this was no Outward Bound. The whole time riding out I was trying to calculate how far we were going and identify any sounds. The longer it took, though, I just sort of gave up. "
Hundreds have tried to run from RedCliff over the years, a common initial reaction to the program's sudden hard-core restraints. Most are caught within 24 hours. Within the first week of their stay, most also get past the urge to escape. "You're filled with hate for the first four or five days," Pat told me that first day on the trail. "Then you eventually settle in." The staff refers to this as "landing" - the point when kids stop resisting and get with the program. RedCliff's five-phase curriculum is like an extreme Boy Scout manual; to graduate from each stage a student has to master a set of ever-more-difficult survival skills. They also have to learn, through prolonged reflection, the writing of autobiographies and weekly therapy sessions, to master themselves and their emotions.
That, at least, is the plan. "This is hardly a perfect science," RedCliff's co-founder Steve Peterson told me as we sat in the field office one afternoon. A plain-talking Wyoming native with massive cattle-rustler's forearms, Peterson is a former treatment counselor in Utah's youth corrections system. He got the inspiration to start RedCliff after being granted permission to take eight kids from a Utah juvenile facility to the Wyoming ranch where he was reared, an experience that he felt changed the kids' outlook and attitude in ways no amount of intense therapy had ever been able to achieve.
"It's basically about trying to teach kids consequences," he continued. "Out here so much is based on what you do, not what you say. These kids know how to manipulate authority and blame authority. But you can't manipulate the wild."
Some kids, however, do find ways to flout the RedCliff regimen by going into a protracted "stall." They're no longer acting out violently, or making escape attempts - they're just refusing to get with the program. Laura, a 16-year-old member of the Grizzlies, was typical. At the group campfire, she recited for me with the dispassion of a recidivist criminal the details of her life: "From a split home. Father's a doctor. Parents fighting over who gets custody of me. Been kicked out of every boarding school on the planet. Tried to set one of them on fire. Pushed a kid down a flight of stairs at another. Did lots of drugs. Given too much leeway, I guess."
At one point, she undid the band that had been holding her long, apparently red hair up in a bun behind her head. It didn't shake down, but slowly swayed off to one side in a dirt-matted clump. "When I first got here," she told me of her days as a sitter, "I didn't do anything. I sat down during hikes and urinated in my pants and bag a lot just to annoy the staff."
Now, however, after 120 days in the desert, she had broken through. Laura and the others I had met all seemed to have become so oddly at home in their homelessness: enfants sauvages who, despite the deprivations of their lives in the wild, had found enough solace in the group rituals and predictable regimen of their RedCliff days that they'd grown reluctant to trade them for their former well-appointed ones.
"These are kids," said Dr. Dan Sanderson, RedCliff's clinical director, "who would be on their way to severe personality disorders and multiyear outpatient treatment if we didn't get to them. They are still walking around with their umbilical cords in their hands, looking to reattach them. But slowly we start to get them to participate in their own lives, and eventually they come to like the changes they see. They come to like the changes they see so much they don't want to leave the program; even their longevity here becomes a badge of honor."
More than 1,500 teenagers have graduated from RedCliff. Studies conducted by Sanderson have shown that six months after completing the program, 80 percent of RedCliff's graduates were still functioning at the high level of productivity and self-control they had been upon leaving.
Independent analysis supports his findings. "These programs do a good job of developing a kid's sense of self," said Dr. Keith Russell of the University of Idaho, who is currently completing the first comprehensive study of wilderness-therapy programs. Judge Joseph E. Jackson, of the 5th District Juvenile Court in Utah, agrees. "Programs like this teach kids that there's a bottom line," he said. "And most of them have a real awakening."
Early one morning with the grizzlies, a cloudless sunrise flaming the jagged stand of juniper in which we'd slept, Mike Petree, the 23-year-old head instructor, announced that there was to be a naming ceremony. He assembled the group around the morning campfire along with the rest of his staff, his 22-year-old wife, Bekka, and Jen Clemmens, 20. Ned, a 16-year-old from New York City, was the Grizzly who, because of his progress, had been singled out that day to receive his "earth name."
He was made to stand alone on the far side of the fire. The rest of us formed a semicircular observatory ring as Petree, standing opposite Ned, lit a sage smudge, held it aloft and, turning to each of the four points on the compass, began to recite a poem.
Petree then called out Ned's name. Bekka and Clemmens came forward and traced with their knives the outline of Ned's body, explaining that they were cutting away the old negative parts of his person and making room for the new positive ones. Petree announced Ned's earth name, Cloud Seeker, and made a short speech about why the name now suited Ned, who kept his head bowed the whole time, shoulders hunched, chin pressed into his chest, as though he were trying to fold up and disappear.
I had spoken with Ned a number of times in the course of my stay with the Grizzlies. A slight, olive-skinned boy with wavy, golden brown hair, he had that presumptuous maturity of so many privileged kids, occasionally sidling up alongside me in the course of our hikes to talk about the different newspapers he liked to read, depending on whether he's at boarding school in Boston, or at his apartment in New York City, or down in the Caribbean. When I asked Ned about what RedCliff was doing for him, he seemed to be feeding me a line. He was someone who figured to be impervious to the sort of staged display we were attending that morning.
Petree asked Ned if he accepted his new name. He nodded. Petree then stepped forward, holding a pawawka, or medicine bag, a small leather pouch that I'd watched him knit together with leather lacing as the two of us sat by the previous night's campfire. Inside, Petree had placed an old flint arrowhead he'd found, a specimen dating back to the late 1700's when the Oglala Sioux inhabited this corner of southern Utah. He put the pawawka around Ned's neck and gave him a hug. When Ned finally lifted his head, tears were running down his cheeks. He then ran to the top of a nearby knoll and shouted his new name four times, once in each direction of the compass.
Sitting at the campfire the night before, Petree had explained to me the purpose of the naming ceremony. He said it was to give kids a whole other person to report to, to take refuge in, when they return to their former life and all the attendant problems, shortcomings and bad influences that got them to RedCliff in the first place.
fter days of listening to kids telling their life stories, I could not keep from wondering about their parents. "I'll tell you what," Steve Peterson said to me at the RCA field office. "I'd like to get some of these parents out in the wilderness for a couple of weeks. I had this one dad who called me up saying the program didn't work, and he wanted to send his kid back. I asked him why, and he said, 'Because the kid stole my marijuana stash.' "
He paused a moment and smiled. "Another father once said to me: 'I can't have it on my kid's record that he was here. He's going to be the president of the United States.' "
'I can't have it on my kid's record that he was here,'said one father. 'He's going to be the president of the United States.'
RedCliff is paid an annual fee of about $500,000 by the Utah Corrections Department for treating adjudicated kids. The bulk of the program's income, however, comes from the parents of private students, parents whose behavior sometimes speaks volumes about the pathologies of their children. Some weeks after students assaulted their counselors and fled across the desert - they were rescued and expelled and then fined by a juvenile-court judge - one escapee phoned RedCliff asking for his original clothes back. He was told that the items couldn't be located but that a number of pieces of clothing had been given to the dog-handlers to be used with the bloodhounds in the course of the search. A short time later, the boy's father phoned demanding to be reimbursed for the clothes. The parents of one of the other boys involved with the assault, meanwhile, have threatened to sue RedCliff for negligence, claiming that their son was a victim and that the staff should have taken care to keep him away from bad influences in his group. They are also contending that RedCliff failed to protect him from harm, both in the course of the assault and in the subsequent search-and-rescue operation.
"It's pretty amazing," Peterson told me. "Maybe these people think I just fell out of the stupid tree, but here I am getting sued for negligence and their child has two felonies on his record for assault and robbery."
I asked Schill about this as we sat talking in the RCA office the evening I returned from the field. "Yeah, we get some pretty low-functioning parents," he said. "Sometimes we'll call the parents to come for the graduation ceremony and they'll say: 'Can you hold my kid for a couple more weeks? We're going to be on vacation.' "
Just then a young girl appeared at the door, a glazed expression on her face. She had on a pair of very low-sitting hip-hugger bell-bottoms and a halter top. She just stood there, silently, in the doorway, one hand twisting a strand of her shoulder-length blond hair.
"Yes?" Schill finally said. "Can I help you?"
"Don't you remember me?" she asked. "Julie. I graduated last year."
"Yeah," Schill offered tentatively. "I think I do. And your dad's a doctor, right? "
"Not for long he isn't," she said, twisting coquettishly on the ball of one foot. "He's up on assault charges right now for throwing me against the wall three times."
A nervous silence ensued. "And," Schill said, "what brings you here?"
"Me and a guy friend just drove down here - driving nonstop. He dropped me off here."
"Do you want to get back in the program?" Schill asked, at a complete loss as to what the girl was after.
"Well, no," she said. "I just wanted to check out what was going on, see the place again. Maybe I'll get a job here some time. You guys were always telling us we should come back and work in the program after we graduated."
"That's right," Schill said, smiling awkwardly. Julie was still there poking aimlessly about the field office when I gathered up my gear and headed for a hotel room in Cedar City. Schill told me the following day that her "guy friend" finally came back to get her about 10 p.m., and that was the last he heard of her.
Just before leaving Redcliff, I got a chance to watch a graduation, or a "run in" ceremony. One of the boys graduating that May morning was Daniel, an adjudicated kid from northern Utah. Daniel's parents and I were driven to a clearing in the middle of the desert. It would be from there, we were told, essentially nowhere, that Daniel would "run in."
We got out of the truck and stood in the bright desert sun, waiting, an occasional wind rattling the surrounding scrub. I thought of a conversation I'd had with Michael, of the Coyotes, a few days before, the ace bow-drill fire-starter from Connecticut whose father had hired an escort service to deliver him to RedCliff. I asked him if, having now gotten with the program, he was just seizing on the most expedient route out of it or if he thought his experience at RedCliff had already changed him in some significant way. It's the sort of question that would make a 16-year-old in any context want to run away, but Michael managed to muster an answer.
"I guess," he said, "I see how irresponsible I was. To my father. To my girlfriend. I'd make her cry all the time and not even care."
More telling than the words was the manner in which they were spoken, a kind of clear-eyed modesty. It was as if Michael had been reacquainted by the wild with a challenge far more significant than any of those that had landed him out there: namely his life, unadorned, and the fact that he alone was ultimately responsible for it.
For all its potential downfalls, RedCliff seemed to have at least awakened the students I met to that reality. They all seemed to walk around with a kind of stunned resolve, the bare-bones conviction that when they got back to their old lives and everything turned rotten again, they would at least know how to take care of themselves.
A message came over our driver's radio. Daniel was ready to make his run-in. His mother and father moved forward along the trail, ready to receive him. On the ride out that morning they'd told me they were excited to see their son again but were skeptical about whether he'd changed. "He's a master manipulator," Dan's father said. "He'll tell you exactly what you want to hear, say all the right things and then get right back into his old ways."
Moments passed. In the distance I could see plumes of dust rising and then a figure straining to emerge from them. Spotting his parents, Daniel picked up the pace, a broad grin appearing on his face as he ran into his mother's arms. He looked uncannily like the young Mickey Rooney in "Boys Town." His dad patted him on the back with his right hand, clutching his wife with his other as she cried. We all piled into the van, Dan and his parents in the seat behind me, Dan listing all the foods he couldn't wait to eat. At one point his parents brought up the possibility of moving to Idaho to keep Dan from falling into old habits.
"I'd love to move to Idaho," Dan said.
"Yeah," his father said, a faint smirk on his face. "We'll see."
Back at the RCA office, Dan and another boy reported to the supply shed to pick up the bags containing the street clothes and other personal items they'd deposited more than two months earlier. Dan's mother had gone inside the office to tend to a bit of last-minute paperwork. His father and I stood outside the supply-shed door, waiting.
Dan stepped out into the sunlight, placed his bag down at his father's feet then walked over to the back of one of the RedCliff pickup trucks parked opposite the supply shed. He pulled out what looked to be a gnarled piece of driftwood. He said he'd found it more than a month ago while hiking. His field instructor at the time promised he'd bring it back to base camp at the end of his shift and keep it there until Dan made end of trail. A smooth gray, wind-abraded section of juniper, it looked like a pair of deer antlers. Dan kept asking his father if he wanted to hold it but got no response. His young face went slack a moment. Then he steeled himself, picked up his gear, and walked away.
-
how come redcliffs web site says they are brat camp? I thought it was sage walk.?.
-
The original was with kids from the UK and featured Redcliff
http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/threa ... 25&start=1 (http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/thread-view.asp?threadid=225&start=1)
Apparently a third is in process.
-
On 2005-08-14 22:15:00, bandit1978 wrote:
"There's a Hyde day school in D.C.- it's a chartered school, seems (from their website) they try recruit athletes from the mainstream, inner-city population. No mention of being anything other than a regular school, no mention of any church affiliation."
That's the founder, Joe Gauld, trying to spread
his tough-love gospel out into the "regular
school" world. He's always wanted to do that.
He talked about it when I was at Hyde in the 70's.
He called it "National Commitment" back then.
That's why, even though Hyde's program isn't as
harsh as some of the others, Gauld's more dangerous.
He wants EVERY school in America to become his
kind of "gulag-lite". He's not kidding. And if
the Republicans stay in power too much longer he
just might succeed. Antigen, you said on another
thread that Desisto resembled Art Barker. Joe
resembles him too.
What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that
they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.
--Thomas Sowell
[ This Message was edited by: tommyfromhyde1 on 2005-08-15 08:25 ][ This Message was edited by: tommyfromhyde1 on 2005-08-15 12:29 ]
-
On 2005-08-14 14:54:00, Deborah wrote:
"
Well, there's their first strike. Fraud.
Traditional boarding schools do not warehouse kids 24/7/365, provide any form of therapy or BM, do not interfere with contact with parents, do not deny home visits for academic incompletes, blah, blah, blah.
We all know the many reasons they do not fit the catergory.
How does this benefit them? Do you know if they are licensed Tommy?
"
Look at the third FAQ in the column on the right.
They don't have to be licensed as a "theraputic
boarding school" if they don't claim to be one.
http://www.hyde.edu/page.ww?section=Abo ... me=Welcome (http://www.hyde.edu/page.ww?section=About+Hyde&name=Welcome)
Nice job of avoiding the issue if you ask me.For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.
-
Oh my, Tommy. May I bring to your attention the illustrious career of one Melvin Riddle.
I sure wish some recent or current students of his would step up and provide us a merit review on him. Meanwhile, here's all we got.
Google Mel Riddle
I'm pretty sure ISAC has some material on him too.One has to multiply thoughts to the point where there aren't enough
policemen to control them
--Stanislaw Lec
-
On 2005-08-10 14:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The child's assigned therapist is spectacular. We get to talk to her for 15 minutes a week, and she is just wonderful. She tells it like it is. She really cares. Her focus is entirely on the kids."
Be careful. These people are master manipulators. Pretending to be concerned for the children is what they do for a living. Remember, she isn't working for you and she isn't working for your son. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security. Be very careful what you say to her. It may be used against you at a later date.
I assume contact is by telephone. I suggest you do as someone else has suggested and record everything.
-
More on RedCliff:
Salt Lake Tribune (Utah)
December 16, 2000, Saturday
SECTION: Final; Pg. D4
LENGTH: 655 words
HEADLINE: No Charges in Clothes Confiscation Case At RedCliff
BYLINE: THOMAS BURR, SPECIAL TO THE TRIBUNE
BODY:
CEDAR CITY - Iron County Attorney Scott Burns said he has no plans to file charges against a wilderness survival program for an incident last week when staff members of the program took away clothes from a 14-year-old boy as a punishment.
The boy, from Salem, Mass., ran away from the RedCliff Ascent program in the southwestern Utah desert Dec. 5 after a male counselor took away his pants and shoes because he refused to help with camp duties and hike with the group. The boy was found six hours later hiding in the underbrush dressed in only a T-shirt, underwear and socks.
Burns said there appears to be no abuse by the counselors and the boy was not placed in any danger, until he decided to run away.
"There was no criminal intent on the part of the counselors," Burns said Thursday, "And I found no recklessness or negligence. This kid is 14 years old and he made the conscious decision to run."
The Department of Human Services, which licenses the RedCliff program, and the Department of Children and Family Services are continuing to investigate the incident.
Rob Ross, a licensing specialist with the Department of Human Services who visited the RedCliff program, north of Beryl in Iron County, on Tuesday with DCFS officials, said it appears RedCliff "responded in an appropriate manner" to the incident.
An incident report from the Iron County Sheriff's Office says the male counselor, who was not identified, took the boy's clothing as "the only way he had to get [him] to work with the group." The report also stated that sometimes the boy was only in his underwear and that "every day this week [the counselor] had to take [the boy's] clothing because he would not hike."
The boy told investigators with the sheriff's office that he cooperated with counselors and did everything he was asked to do. The report also stated he was "very cold" after his clothes were taken. The boy was examined by a doctor after being found and was given a clean bill of health.
The boy has been returned to finish the program with new counselors. The unidentified counselors involved in the incident have been suspended until the investigations are complete.
Scott Schill, field director of the RedCliff Ascent program, based in Springville, said they have finished an internal investigation and believe this to be an isolated incident. Schill said the staff members have been given a warning that if this type of situation arises again they will be relieved of their duties.
The male staff member, Schill said, may not be returning to the company by his own choice, and the female staff member will possibly go through RedCliff's seven-day training program again.
"It's one of the inherent aspects of wilderness programs," Schill said. "It's impossible to monitor it on a constant basis. It's unfortunate."
Schill also said at the time the boy's clothes were taken away the temperature in the sun was 72 degrees, according to the counselors.
William Alder, head meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Salt Lake City, said records show a high in the area of 52 degrees, and a low of 22 degrees. Alder doubts it could have topped 55 degrees during this time of year and noted that the hottest place that day in Utah was St. George with 64 degrees.
Schill disputes the weather service temperature as a general reading for the area and said he was out in the desert in his T-shirt and socks looking for the boy and was "very comfortable."
This is not the first time RedACliff has experienced trouble with its program.
Last December, eight teen-age boys escaped from the camp in southwestern Utah after beating up a male counselor, drawing international attention with a four-day search by multiple law enforcement agencies. The eight were eventually caught and charged with felony assault. Some of the boys pleaded guilty to those charges earlier this year.
-
Here are the Utah state regs for wilderness programs:
http://www.code-co.com/utah/admin/2001/r501008.htm (http://www.code-co.com/utah/admin/2001/r501008.htm)
D. Program Requirements
5. Each consumer shall have clothing and equipment to protect the consumer from the environment. This equipment shall never be removed, denied, or made unavailable to a consumer. ... There shall never be a deprivation of any equipment as a consequence. Such equipment shall include:
h. basic clothing list to ensure consumer protection against seasonal change in the environment
They flouted this regulation and, as a result, a rescue operation had to be mounted to find the boy before he died of exposure. Yet the authorities did nothing to enforce the code. It seems "consequences" are just for the kids, not the programs.
-
and the female staff member will possibly go through RedCliff's seven-day training program again.
So they are really highly trained! :roll:
-
Just a quick update. WE GOT A LETTER FROM OUR BOY TODAY!!!!! Somehow it was mailed to us directly, and wasn't sent through his mother. We must have a secret angel at Redcliff! The last we heard, the director of admissions refused to make any exceptions so we could get his mail directly. We were so thrilled to see that envelope!
However, the letter broke our hearts. It was so pitiful. He says he doesn't know why he is there, and is begging us to come and get him. It's horrible there.
It's killing us. He KNOWS he didn't do anything to deserve this. He KNOWS his mother is a nut case, and that's why he's there.
I've had it. Heads are gonna roll for this. Whatever it takes, heads WILL roll. And I know exactly whose head will be first!
-
You go girl!!
I'm really sorry for your pain. I know exactly how it feels.
My son's letters came direct but were written as if he were following an outline- reporting on how he was 'working the program'.
It sometimes happens that there is a reasonable and caring staff member who will do the etical thing. The counselor at the wilderness program let a letter pass that would never have gotten by the censors at the TBS. She was also the only staff that validated what I knew- he didn't need to be there.
-
it's awful the way they handle mail and letter writing in programs. When I was in PCS, the less I wrote my parents, the better I did moving up the level system of the program. :roll:
-
PS Read through the regulations. They are in violation not only of your court ordered rights, but also Utah Regs. File a complaint.
http://www.code-co.com/utah/admin/2001/r501008.htm (http://www.code-co.com/utah/admin/2001/r501008.htm)
10. Incoming and outgoing mail to parents, guardians, and attorneys shall not be restricted but shall be delivered in as prompt a manner as the location and circumstances dictate.
11. Outgoing mail to parents, guardians, or attorneys shall not be read or censored.
12. Incoming mail from parents or guardians shall not be read or censored without written permission from a parent or guardian.
13. All other mail may be restricted only by parental request in writing.
14. All incoming mail may be required to be opened in the presence of staff. Contraband shall be confiscated.
-
Family court in NH is so biased against men that we couldn't get an order from them to remove him.
Just an idea: is there perhaps another family member who could apply for custody, if only on a temporary basis? It might focus the court's mind on the fact that this is a child welfare issue, not a matrimonial dispute.
-
I had to take a step back for a couple of days. This is just becoming overwhelming. I had some surgery & stuff, and I feel really beaten down right now. Now I feel guilty for my "time out" while a child is suffering.
Deborah, you are such a sweetheart. Thanks for all the links! There is so much information out there, and so much propaganda also. I got an email from the child's mother with a link to a "study" that shows just how very effective Redcliff's program is. She is trying to defend what she has done to the child, and present it as a "good thing". The study she sent me was by Dr. Aldana (BYU). I looked at Redcliff's website, and they use this as part of their "Research" information. They also use research from Dr. Russell (U. of Idaho), and then they combine the two for an overall picture of recovery. It sure looks good. VERY favorable results.
Unfortunately, the mother only reads what she wants to read (and she's a bit "literacy challenged" to begin with) and she failed to consider the source of all this glowing research.
I found Dr. Aldana's Curriculum Vitae, and he is on the BOARD OF DIRECTORS AT REDCLIFF.
The second study was performed by Dr. Keith Russell and the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Research Cooperative. I found that between 1998 and 2003, much of Dr. Russell's research has been funded by grants (6 grants totaling $228,000) from the OBHIC (Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Industry Council).
The connection? Redcliff is a very involved member of the OBHIC. Steve Petersen (Redcliff owner & founder) is on the OBHIC's committees for Standards & Quality, and is the Chair of Staffing. Scott Petersen (another owner & founder of Redcliff) is on OBHIC's MARKETING & MEDIA RELATIONS COMMITTEE. Jim Salisbury (same thing, you get the idea here) is on the OBHIC Staffing Committee. Now, I'm not saying the research is invalid or even questionable. I'm just saying I (if I were a parent looking for wilderness therapy for a child) would want, AND EXPECT, Redcliff to note this information along with the research results. The website calls these "two independent studies". Well, the two studies were DONE independently of each other. I hope intelligent parents will look a bit deeper than that, before accepting any research.
I would like to see research on the outcome for a child who is placed there when his psychological evaluation determined his placement there was not necessary, and could even be counter-productive. Even Dr. Russell said in one of his papers that Wilderness Therapy is seen as a treatment option for SERIOUSLY TROUBLED adolescents not being reached by traditional forms of treatment. In our case, the child had visited a family counselor with his mother twice in the past 6 months. No effort was made to give this child a chance, before he was picked up and taken to Utah. Does Redcliff have any responsibility for accepting a child who doesn't need to be there? Is there ANY child they won't accept? Maybe one whose parents can't afford $425 a day?
What we are doing now is going to take so long, it won't be helpful in getting him out of there. We are trying very hard to ACCEPT that we can't help him. That's not easy. What Redcliff is doing to the child, they are also doing to us. Isolating the parent from the child, and putting us all in a situation where we have no rights. They are trying to beat us down emotionally and make us give up. For us, we DO have recourse....but it will take a long time, and does the child no good. At a minimum, we hope to be able to prevent this from happening to anyone else. Every day we are checking the weather reports for Utah, trying to empathize with what he is going through. It somehow makes us feel a bit closer to him. I know that sounds bizarre, but it's all we have to make us feel like we are in touch with his day-to-day life. We are that desperate. My husband still writes him letters. But now the therapist (with whom my husband gets a 15-minute telephone call once per week) says this is not helpful, and she wants the child to only receive one letter from his father, and one from his mother, per week. No mail from other relatives. Our hands are tied. We can't disregard what she says....She is our lifeline to him...our only contact....and we can't lose that.
My husband spoke to Redcliff's attorney on the phone. More roadblocks and brick walls. He indicated the fact my husband has joint legal custody of the child is virtually meaningless. The court order from NH (saying my husband has access to all records) will not be recognized. The consent form signed by the mother allows him only very limited access, to a few documents of Redcliff's choosing. What is wrong with these people? Redcliff's Director of Admissions refuses to communicate with my husband AT ALL. Nobody will explain why we've been told 3 different (and increasingly complicated) versions of what would be required to withdraw the child.....when Redcliff's own enrollment contract states their policy is to allow any parent to withdraw the child. They don't even care about the custodial status of that parent. They will simply allow him to be withdrawn. Why do they have a different policy for us? They refuse to explain. The last requirement that was stated (needing a court order from UTAH) was the one the Director refused to put in writing. Why? Do they plan to deny saying it? Yes, we've thought about recording conversations, but it's not legal here. I'm sure they know this, so they don't worry about what they say on the phone.
The mother has refused to give us custody (even though we received her offer in writing last month, and she said glowing things about our ability to provide good parenting for him). We have considered having a third party take custody, but there is only one good option there, and I don't think they'd be willing to change their lifestyle to do it. And the mother would refuse to do that anyway. She's afraid if someone else has the child, she'll have to give up her child support payments.
We have someone in our corner now, and will know more next week about what will happen next. In the meantime, we are working on ways to deal with the frustration of not being able to help him. Sometimes it is just overwhelming, not knowing what he's going through, and worrying that he will resent us for being unable to help him. Just overwhelming. Thanks for the support!
-
[ This Message was edited by: Joyce Harris on 2006-05-28 13:00 ]
-
Joyce, thanks so much! We have tried approaching a lot of "officials" without success. Now we have a whole new source!
I can't begin to imagine what you are going through. There are always things you can do, or try to do, but nothing can undo harm done to a child. All you can do is try to change things to protect children from this in the future.
We regret that we didn't go pick up my husband's son right away, at the time they were saying we COULD withdraw him (although I still believe they would NOT have released him to us). Instead we wasted time believing we (along with her relatives) could make her see this was a huge mistake, and she would do the right thing. We were fools to worry about the legal implications. He was there a little over a week when the fax from Redcliff arrived saying we needed a court order. Ten days later that requirement grew to be a court order from Utah. It's all gone downhill from there.
I wish we could just show up there and take him. But he is out somewhere in their 650 square miles of wilderness, and that's a large area to search. Without their willingness to help us, we'd never find him.
I have been in touch with a large regional newspaper here, and am hoping this can get some exposure. I want everyone to know this can happen to their child. I want this practice STOPPED. It's ludicrous that a father can have legal custody of his son, and a business tells him he has no rights to his own child. It's shameful, and it's time people know the truth about these places, and how they operate. That's my goal.
I wish you all the best with your struggle, and thank you for your help.
-
As I read through your posts on this topic, of your struggles with family court and Redcliff, and as I search for an answer to this whole predicament....and I cant help wonder if the problem lies within Redcliff's contract itself....
So, Notafriendofredcliff, I was wondering....has your attorney seen the redcliff contract?
Here's why I ask....I cant help wonder if a judge's hands might be tied because of the contract the mother signed...in other words, I wonder if the contract itself legally gives Redcliff the legal right to deny you contact with your son?...(I have a huge ethical and moral disagreement with a program having that much power over a child's parents). But I dont know for sure, so you would have to ask your attorney about this.
And for what its worth...I'm still rooting for you and hope something good comes out of this mess. Its really obvious that you are a very caring person who only wants to do the right thing for this child...in fact your spirit inspires me... ::rainbow::
-
A parent's divorce decree (rights) supercedes a program's policies and contracts. Further, this father did not sign the contract- mom had another ex sign as 'father'. Because this father has joint custody, that fact alone should make the contract null and void. Legal action could probably be taken against the ex who represented himself as the boy's father.
The major problem appears to be that the family court judge ruled that the child would remain in the program, denying temporary custody.
There's something very wrong when a judge rules that a child will stay in a program when 1) a professional evaluation showed it not to be in his best interest and 2) the other biological parent has expressed a desire for custody.
-
Well......When we first saw a faxed copy of the enrollment contract, it was so blurred and had been faxed back & forth between the signing parties for signatures, we couldn't make out much. But I finally went on the Redcliff website and "registered" to get a password (like I was actually going to try to enroll a child) and was able to get in to see the actual contract. It's separate from the rest of the application documents, and is called the RCA Financial Contract. Only the most desperate parent would sign that piece of garbage. There is nothing there to indicate the other parent would have no rights. In fact, it says clearly that in the event another parent, REGARDLESS of their custodial status, wants to withdraw the child, no problem. Come & get him. Unfortunately, my husband didn't SIGN this contract, so he can't hold them to it. But I think it's pretty darned clear, since it's in their contract, it must be their POLICY. Any reasonable person would assume so. We just can't understand why they require so much more for my husband to withdraw him. It makes no sense, and they refuse to explain. Our attorney will address this with them this week.
The enrollment contract, as it was executed, was so fradulent. The mother signed it, along with her 3rd ex-husband (who has NO legal standing with regard to this child), representing themselves as "the legal Parent(s)/Guardian(s) with full legal/joint physical custody of ." Keeping in mind that this was accompanied by the other application paperwork Redcliff received, with contradictory information as to custody, they have to assume some responsibility for this. And they will, like it or not. This kind of thing can't go on.
I don't believe one parent can give permission for a business entity to deny the other parent's rights. The mother and her 3rd ex-husband paid to have the child abducted and taken to Utah. We have papers from the court here in NH, saying my husband is entitled to ALL information about the child by virtue of being his legal custodian, and the mother is required to provide him a flight itinerary whenever the child travels out of state. She disregarded this order, although in the grand scheme of things, this is the least of our concerns. My husband is not even allowed to know the name of the company who abducted his son. Redcliff said they'd be happy to give him a list of all the companies they recommend for parents to choose from, but refuse to tell him which one brought the child to them. That's "private". This is wrong on so many different levels.
We'll get more info from the atty on Tuesday, maybe good, maybe not. But I'm not giving up either way.
-
Right on Deborah! YES, we're planning to go after the ex-step-father as well. He did this to another one of his step-sons (don't know if this was before or after he divorced the mother, and don't know if the natural father had a clue). He has to be stopped. This one, I'm going to ENJOY. :flame:
-
Maybe I'm just simple minded. But it seems to me that they're plain out bluffing. Seems to me that if Dad shows up at their business office or field office w/ ID, a copy of the divorce decree and an officer of the law, they'd be legally compelled to go get the boy and place him back into his father's physical custody. The only trick they could really pull would be to coerce him into stating that he doesn't want to go w/ him.
If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
-
What action can be taken against the judge? Never heard of it, but could one request a different one? Who would one file a complaint with?
The fact that the mother's 3rd ex fraudulently signing as legal guardian, and placed the kid inspite of the evaluation, and the excessive restrictions on communication with dad and refusal to provide the child's records, should be red flags for any family judge.
Doesn't sound to me like she is upholding her duties as a judge, and clearly is not acting in the child's best interest.
-
Yeh, I think they're stalling too- violating the law and their own policies until someone forces them to comply.
Except for the judge denying temporary custody, I too still think the best strategy would be to do what you said Ginger and just demand they retrieve him from the field. Take him home and deal with the fall out if/when it happens.
Dear lord, there is ample evidence here to prove reasonable concern, to a sane judge, anyway.
-
I agree with Deb and Ginger here - Go get the kid and sort it out later. The one mistake you might of made is trying to come to an agreement over the phone. Quit calling and Go - take a lawyer if you possibly can - maybe take a reporter with you - definitely take cameras and recorders,And then insist they produce the boy; or drive you and your party out to where he is.
Seems to me the one snag might be the out door nature of it. Its not like he would be on campus somewhere - but I would not let them keep me from buying a flight to SLC or LAS and driving out to red cliff.
-
Doesn't matter if they're in the back 40, the program is required to know where the boy is at all times. Their schedule has to be planned and recorded in advance.
-
For the record: I completely AGREE PERSONALLY, with ever last word Deborah and Notafriendofredcliff said in the posts immediately following my last post. I was really proposing a hypothetical question/suggestion.
I PERSONALLY AGREE completely with exactly what Notafriendofredcliff said:-------"I don't believe one parent can give permission for a business entity to deny the other parent's rights." -------
But I FEAR this is what programs are attempting to do, legally or no....and I bet they know full well that most parents are either unwilling or unable to fight them....I bet they use the lengthy legal proccess to their advantage, and like someone else said STALLING until it the kid finishes the program or they have milked enough money from parents to keep them happy, who knows?(BTW, I DO NOT AGREE with these possible tactics)
What I do KNOW about the law in general is what concerns me.....very often the LAW produces UNFAIR results...the LAW is very RARELY BLACK and WHITE or CLEARCUT, and most disturbing, COMMON SENSE often goes out the window in order to produce "REASONABLE" results. And then SOMETIMES, the law is FAIR....
Looks to me like parents in family court, see the UNFAIR and arbitrary results too often, that clearly runs counter to common sense. That said I am NOT suggesting that unfairness is inevitible.I think what I am really getting at is that a lawyer in Notafriendofredcliff's and any other parent's case needs to use that gavel to beat some common sense into the judges head.
::rainbow::
-
They also use research from Dr. Russell (U. of Idaho), and then they combine the two for an overall picture of recovery.
Dr Russell works for that esteemed center of clinical excellence the Department of Resource Recreation and Tourism at the University of Idaho. His PhD in "wilderness therapy" is issued by that very same department. It's rather like an English Literature Department issuing MDs. What the hell do these people know about therapy?
BTW, the peer review panel on all the OBHRC research, the people who are supposed to be ensuring academic rigour, comprises the clinical directors of all the companies that sponsored the research in the first place.
-
Update on Dr. Russell. He's now at the University of New Hampshire. I'm confused that he's been doing all this research with positive outcomes for wilderness therapy, yet one of the Univ. of NH Alumnus had this comment to make about him joining UNH:
<<
I am more than a little disturbed to be told that my school wastes the money necessary to maintain Keith Russell and to give him the implied credibility of "assistant professor" in the make-believe science of kinesiology; but it's good that somebody is pointing out the failure of the therapeutic education "boot camp" fad. In my opinion they are mostly job opportunities for otherwise unemployable psyche majors and their products are mostly stronger, more self-confident sociopaths.>>>
I wasn't aware he had done anything to point out the failure of the programs he had researched. Maybe if I keep digging deeply enough, I'll find it somewhere. This guy was a bit rough on him. I hope he was able to reply. I'd love to know if his feelings about wilderness therapy have changed. I haven't found anything recent that he's done for the OBHIC. I think 2003 was the most recent.
-
You get quacks in every order of PHD I guess. :lol:
-
Notafriendofredcliff: Why aren't you in Utah getting your kid out of that program instead of reading a bunch of research?
-
Hey notafrien,
When I read you username too fast I find myself asking "So who the heck is Fred Cliff?" :smile:
-
Cute, Shortbus. I needed the laugh today! Thanks! Our appointment with our attorney got moved to Thursday, so we're in limbo until then, while a child waits in the desert. Limbo is a rotten place. Like Purgatory. Maybe I should change my handle to REDCLIFFSBIGGESTPAININTHEBUTT. More accurate!
-
Arrgghh, the state of suspense, waiting for something to happen. Best of luck to you and try to take your mind off things for a bit if you can... watch some bad movies, clean the house, go for a run. Am sending good thoughts your way.
-
Im the only one that wants to know the joke?? I hope the answer isnt what I think it is........
-
Um... something bad? I dont know, tell us!!!
-
Okay TSW, three's a charm. Let it rip.
-
Not a friend; What happened with your attorney? What did he/she advise about getting your son out of this place?
-
I am sad (understatement) to report that we have NO legal recourse. As long as the mother signed along with the sicko-wannabe-father, there is nothing we can do. Redcliff has a MORAL obligation in this, but not a legal one. And moral doesn't count in anyone's book but ours, and maybe with parents who are considering signing away their own parental rights away to Redcliff. The fact that the child's psychologist determined this was unwarranted, and could be counter-productive (and has proven to be so)is not something Redcliff has a legal obligation to recognize. As long as someone signs and pays, that's all they need. We learned that we DO, in fact, have to go to Utah and get a court order to make anything happen.....to even get the records that the NH court says he is entitled to. Geez, if we only had a couple of months to screw around with this legal stuff, while a child suffers. What a haven Utah is for the Wilderness Therapy Business. This is Day 33 for the boy. Nobody gives a rat's behind what he is going through.
I have been in contact with a lot of news agencies about this....radio, TV and newspapers...and it will be exposed.
Okay, I'm mad at the world right now. But I am NOT without resources. I WILL FIND A WAY to make sure this child has not suffered in vain. I know, that sounds melodramatic. Bear with me. I'm furious, and I'm worried. An innocent 15 year old child has been shat upon in the worst possible way by his own MOTHER (and sadly she has the legal right to call herself a MOTHER), and we have no recourse. The courts are heartless. His mother is heartless and disturbed.
Now his "mother" says she is going to spring him on the 2nd of September. Why? Because that's all his school is willing to allow...beyond that, they can't help him catch up, and he DOES have a minimum legal number of days to attend, even with a private Catholic School (we're not Catholic, he wasn't either.....his mother lied to the Priest to get him converted to assure his continued enrollment in Catholic School, while robbing his college fund to pay for it). But if he stayed at Redcliff, with the unsatisfactory progress he is reluctantly making, they expect he would be there until late September, or early October before being graduation-worthy.
So, given that he is not going to be allowed to graduate and get the sense of satisfaction that MIGHT give him, why is he staying until the 2nd of September? Wouldn't it make sense to pull him out now? No. His "mother" (and each time I am using the term more and more loosely) has PLANS. She has sailing events at the Yacht Club, and other plans with her boyfriend. So he must remain in the desert, humiliated and angry.
Family members (hers!) have tried to get her to remove him before any more damage can be done, but she is adamant. She has plans, and she won't be denied her "party time" while her son is not in her "care". In this case, this means while she flits about and the son's father sends her fat child support checks so she can feed her hairy live-in boyfriend.....while she has given her physical custody away to Redcliff Ascent. If nothing else, she's in for a surprise with regard to the child support.
I have a rhetorical question for anyone familiar with Utah law. IF a therapist hears directly from a child that the child has been repeatedly exposed to (and possibly the victim of) violence, and is afraid for his (or her) own safety, is that therapist required by law to report it to the authorities? Just "curious". Simply a rhetorical question. Anyone know?
We are afraid that September 2nd, when he will be picked up by his "mother", will bring a family tragedy. And our hands are tied.
I will keep up my efforts to expose this situation so other parents won't mistakenly think they are somehow protected by having Legal Custody. Yes, folks, a big business in Utah can take your child against his will, against YOUR will, and you have NO recourse. They can simply refuse to acknowledge you exist, and refuse to acknowledge there is an authorization in the file that allows you to have information about your child (even if you fax them a copy of it), and refuse to acknowledge you have any custodial rights given by the court in your home state (where the child was BORN, and where the jurisdiction for custody lies). It's NOT about the children. It's about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
-
I was really hoping I was wrong about the legal effect of those contracts. I agree with you personally and morally, that contracts being used to deny parents of their fundemental parental rights is a travesty and an outrage.....I am so sorry things did not go well....But I think your resolve to help expose the real effect of those contacts, that they strip parents of their rights, could be very valuable in helping to stop the "madness" as I call it....I will fully support you in that battle....
Other than that...I am at a total a loss as to what to say to give you comfort...I'm sure you are very upset and rightfully so... I'll keep you in my thoughts..... ::rainbow::
-
Hi again,
I am so sorry about the news from your attorney.
Did you call Alan Sevison, or Mr. Stettler?
This is outrageous!
I do hope this so-called "MOTHER" does not go the NEXT step that is very COMMON and enroll your son in some long-term "boarding school, treatment program." That is usually the NEXT STEP.
My heart just breaks for you both--but your son will eventually know all the steps you took to try and get him out of there.
Hopefully--he will be out of that wilderness program soon.
THEN you can maybe begin the legal steps to get FULL legal custody of this boy...and have control of his well-being.
Let me know if our family can do anything to help. I do feel your frustration and pain.
Side line: Our family is coming to your beautiful state for a "autumn vacation" the middle of October. We adopted Zita from Romania--and we do not have "SEASONS" here in San Antonio, Texas...so we are coming there to show her the beautiful fall colors....and I have a great facination with covered bridges--so we will be enjoying the scenery for several days. We have never been to New Hampshire; and look forward to it.
Sincerely,
Joyce
-
***As long as the mother signed along with the sicko-wannabe-father, there is nothing we can do.
That?s bullshit. They guy?s not even his stepdad.
***Redcliff has a MORAL obligation in this, but not a legal one.
They aren?t obligated to honor their own publicly stated policy on conflicts- ? Isn?t it fraud to say (sell) one thing and do another?
***And moral doesn't count in anyone's book but ours, and maybe with parents who are considering signing away their own parental rights away to Redcliff.
It doesn?t sound like the mother signed away her rights. She may have deferred to their policies in terms of contact with her son but she gets information from the program, the program (not the court) has granted her the ?right? to screen mail to an from the boy?s bio father, and she has the right to pull her son anytime she chooses. Sounds like she and her compadre signed away the father?s rights. That?s illegal. And perhaps your counsel isn?t viewing it that way because his next visitation isn?t until Xmas. But they are still violating his right to access his son?s records, and unnecessarily limiting contact by phone and mail
***We learned that we DO, in fact, have to go to Utah and get a court order to make anything happen.....to even get the records that the NH court says he is entitled to.
Why? What was the explanation, given that the NH court has jurisdiction over this child and the divorce decree?
***I have been in contact with a lot of news agencies about this....radio, TV and newspapers...and it will be exposed.
Please post anything that gets published.
Sounds like my ex and his mother have a lot in common. He pulled our son two months early when they attempted to deny a visit that was important to him.
***I have a rhetorical question for anyone familiar with Utah law. IF a therapist hears directly from a child that the child has been repeatedly exposed to (and possibly the victim of) violence, and is afraid for his (or her) own safety, is that therapist required by law to report it to the authorities? Just "curious". Simply a rhetorical question. Anyone know?
Yep, therapists are required to report when they suspect a child is being abused, as are doctors and any other professional the child comes in contact with. But the mavericks in the industry seem to operate under their own ?ethics?. They most likely would consider any such claim to be ?manipulation? and ignore it.
-
***I have a rhetorical question for anyone familiar with Utah law. IF a therapist hears directly from a child that the child has been repeatedly exposed to (and possibly the victim of) violence, and is afraid for his (or her) own safety, is that therapist required by law to report it to the authorities? Just "curious". Simply a rhetorical question. Anyone know?
Yep, therapists are required to report when they suspect a child is being abused, as are doctors and any other professional the child comes in contact with. But the mavericks in the industry seem to operate under their own ?ethics?. They most likely would consider any such claim to be ?manipulation? and ignore it.
According to the A&E video, RedCliff Ascent forces kids to hike by twisting their joints in ways they are not supposed to go in order to cause the victim pain.
http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/RedCliff.ram (http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/RedCliff.ram)
If they do not consider this child abuse then I wonder what they would consider abuse.
Perhaps you need to get a Utah lawyer involved to find out what your Utah rights are. For a start, as Deborah has already pointed out, censoring or restricting mail between father and son is against Utah regs.
-
According to the A&E video, RedCliff Ascent forces kids to hike by twisting their joints in ways they are not supposed to go in order to cause the victim pain.
http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/RedCliff.ram (http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/RedCliff.ram)
If they do not consider this child abuse then I wonder what they would consider abuse.
Its not abuse, its assault. Restraint is not using submission holds, aka newaza from a Judo/Juujutsu school. Shit from marital arts, Pro wrestling, and the UFC belongs in a dojo, in a ring, and on Spike TV, respectively, NOT with children getting 'therapy'! I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or agnostic. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
-
I spent 50 days at RedCiff and to be honest it might have saved my life. Its a good program and had a positive effect on all the kids I was there with. I saw that series 'Brat Camp' with the British kids and their expiriance was pretty much identical to mine so if you've seen that show and still think its abuse then you probably have some mental issues yourself that need to be worked out. Instead of spouting off about all this 'suffering' and 'cruelty' it causes maybe you should look at some of the huge ammout of good it can do.
-
His "mother" (and each time I am using the term more and more loosely) has PLANS. She has sailing events at the Yacht Club, and other plans with her boyfriend. So he must remain in the desert, humiliated and angry.
Well, if it would so disrupt her social calendar why can't he come and stay with you? :flame:
-
On 2005-08-27 21:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I spent 50 days at RedCiff and to be honest it might have saved my life. Its a good program and had a positive effect on all the kids I was there with. I saw that series 'Brat Camp' with the British kids and their expiriance was pretty much identical to mine so if you've seen that show and still think its abuse then you probably have some mental issues yourself that need to be worked out. Instead of spouting off about all this 'suffering' and 'cruelty' it causes maybe you should look at some of the huge ammout of good it can do."
And exactly what good can it possibly do to someone whose only problem is a narcissistic mother?
-
On 2005-08-27 21:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I spent 50 days at RedCiff and to be honest it might have saved my life. Its a good program and had a positive effect on all the kids I was there with. I saw that series 'Brat Camp' with the British kids and their expiriance was pretty much identical to mine so if you've seen that show and still think its abuse then you probably have some mental issues yourself that need to be worked out. Instead of spouting off about all this 'suffering' and 'cruelty' it causes maybe you should look at some of the huge ammout of good it can do."
Did they twist your arm and your wrists to get you to hike? Were you strip searched? Just curious. I am glad you got through it in 50 days. The 13-year-old in the video was still there after 83 days! That is a very long time for a 13-year-old to be away from his family. This kid also said they forced hiking by twisting arms and applying pressure to wrists.
-
On 2005-08-27 21:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I spent 50 days at RedCiff and to be honest it might have saved my life. Its a good program and had a positive effect on all the kids I was there with. I saw that series 'Brat Camp' with the British kids and their expiriance was pretty much identical to mine so if you've seen that show and still think its abuse then you probably have some mental issues yourself that need to be worked out. Instead of spouting off about all this 'suffering' and 'cruelty' it causes maybe you should look at some of the huge ammout of good it can do."
I'm glad Redcliff was helpful to you. May I ask why you were placed at Redcliff?
-
Oops. Did we just feed a troll?
-
You are morons. I went to Redcliff for 80 days. It was fantastic, the best experience in my life. I was sad to go. At first it wasnt "nice" at all, but then it became fantastic. You get whatever out of the program you choose to get. Why cant we speak to our parents? BECAUSE WE'RE OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NO WHERE RETARDS!. Geeze, the ignorance coming from you people make me livid. The staff is loving and caring, i stay in touch with many of them and you ARE safe. Parents if your children have problems, send them to RCA. They will become a changed person by the end of it.- Avion Sun 15yrs old
-
On 2005-09-02 08:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are morons. I went to Redcliff for 80 days. It was fantastic, the best experience in my life. I was sad to go. At first it wasnt "nice" at all, but then it became fantastic. You get whatever out of the program you choose to get. Why cant we speak to our parents? BECAUSE WE'RE OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NO WHERE RETARDS!. Geeze, the ignorance coming from you people make me livid. The staff is loving and caring, i stay in touch with many of them and you ARE safe. Parents if your children have problems, send them to RCA. They will become a changed person by the end of it.- Avion Sun 15yrs old"
Sheesh ... get a grip, Avion. Better yet, be a teenager not a snake oil salesman for some brat camp.
:idea:
-
On 2005-09-02 08:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are morons. I went to Redcliff for 80 days. It was fantastic, the best experience in my life. I was sad to go. At first it wasnt "nice" at all, but then it became fantastic. You get whatever out of the program you choose to get. Why cant we speak to our parents? BECAUSE WE'RE OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NO WHERE RETARDS!. Geeze, the ignorance coming from you people make me livid. The staff is loving and caring, i stay in touch with many of them and you ARE safe. Parents if your children have problems, send them to RCA. They will become a changed person by the end of it.- Avion Sun 15yrs old"
Yikes. Go back to Redcliff and get some help with anger management. I think they forgot to work on that! Morons? Retards? What kind of values did they teach you there????
-
I've heard adults use that term against others on this site who disagree with them as well. Maybe they should take anger management classes also.
-
Your suggestion makes me so mad I want to EXPLODE!!!
-
On 2005-09-02 08:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are morons. I went to Redcliff for 80 days. It was fantastic, the best experience in my life. I was sad to go. At first it wasnt "nice" at all, but then it became fantastic. You get whatever out of the program you choose to get. Why cant we speak to our parents? BECAUSE WE'RE OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NO WHERE RETARDS!. Geeze, the ignorance coming from you people make me livid. The staff is loving and caring, i stay in touch with many of them and you ARE safe. Parents if your children have problems, send them to RCA. They will become a changed person by the end of it.- Avion Sun 15yrs old"
You say the staff is loving and caring, but the video clearly shows two kids who say they were "....hurt..." and had their wrists and arms "...twisted..." in order to force them to hike. Did this happen to you? Do you endorse such tactics? Do you think it is okay to treat teenagers this way?
You spent 80 days there. Why so long? At what point do you think the staff/parents should consider the program as taking too long and pull a teen out?
-
You are morons. I went to Redcliff for 80 days. It was fantastic, the best experience in my life. I was sad to go. At first it wasnt "nice" at all, but then it became fantastic. You get whatever out of the program you choose to get. Why cant we speak to our parents? BECAUSE WE'RE OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF NO WHERE RETARDS!. Geeze, the ignorance coming from you people make me livid. The staff is loving and caring, i stay in touch with many of them and you ARE safe. Parents if your children have problems, send them to RCA. They will become a changed person by the end of it.- Avion Sun 15yrs old
::watches quietly as the robot marches slowly across the room::
Its called the U.S. Mail, they deliver everywhere in the U.S
::watches with a smile as the robot's head explodes because he can't adapt to the truth that his parents just did not give a rat's ass.::
-
And at least the "robot" can spell at a third grade level--which is more than can be said of dumb fuck Overlordd
-
:roll:
Get a log in and I might value your input, or hell, post about the topic and I might value your input.
-
Sonny boy your evaluation of my opinion is the very last reason I would ever choose to get a log-in
Your spelling's improved though, so maybe you were just holding back or you really did learn to use spell check
-
We have not heard anything from Notafriendofredcliff since August 26. Did the mother pull the boy out to attend school like she said she would? It would be nice to see some closure to this.
-
On 2005-09-05 18:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sonny boy your evaluation of my opinion is the very last reason I would ever choose to get a log-in
Your spelling's improved though, so maybe you were just holding back or you really did learn to use spell check"
Hey! It's Karen! I'd recognize that 'ol "Sonny boy" anywhere. She's an insulting little bitch, huh?
-
No the staff don't twist your arms to make you hike, if you refuse to hike then you are known as whats called a sitter, you will eventually be sent to a group called Bullfrogs where 'bad' kids go. The only punishment about this 'Bullfrogs' group is that you cannot speak to other students in the group. RCA is lovely, im not endorsing it or anything, i went there and enjoyed it very much and got alot out of it.
-
The only punishment about this 'Bullfrogs' group is that you cannot speak to other students in the group.
And what happens if you do?
-
On 2005-09-10 07:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
Hey! It's Karen! I'd recognize that 'ol "Sonny boy" anywhere. She's an insulting little bitch, huh?"
No, you guessed wrong. This is a silly game, but it does illustrate one valuable point. This happens over and over again. If you go looking for it in old threads, you'll see what I mean.
There really are at least several people who you assume to all be Karen (unless, of course, Karen is net savvy enough to mask his/her IP through a small set of proxies) But I think it's more likely that these are different people who, very likely, used to have different personalities, lexicons and logical habits. Now they don't.
You're mistaking the shared group identity for a personal identity, just like the adherants do.
I think that all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! But I'm sick and tired of being told that I am!
-- Monty Python
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
-
It's actually more of a running gag. Everyone knows there are several people posting anonymously, one of whom is Karen. At some point, it was decided that all trolls would be referred to as "Karen," both to reflect the consistencies of their viewpoints and to cause the "Karens" to constantly deny the postings. "It wasn't me, it was another anon..." etc. That's all.
Nobody takes it seriously, nor does anyone believe it's one person, but it's amusing to watch them get all riled up. It's reflective of the "programs" in that they (the Karens, like the the program kids) all get treated the same way and get "consequences" as a group, whether the consequences apply to the particular individual or not. It's just funny to watch them react exactly as the kids react under the same treatment. It shows the programs create the problem, they don't treat it.
Anyway, that's my take on it.
-
"This is a silly game, but it does illustrate one valuable point. This happens over and over again", according to Anti-ginger who is talking about the KarenIn Dallas foolishness
I can't see one valuable thing about adult or almost adult people behaving like simpletons by pretending that they think several people are just one, over and over and over again. Makes me squeamish about even communicating with these mental midgets
It is in fact damned annoying. Makes me check the whole thread much less frequently than I used to.
-
On 2005-09-16 11:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
""This is a silly game, but it does illustrate one valuable point. This happens over and over again", according to Anti-ginger who is talking about the KarenIn Dallas foolishness
I can't see one valuable thing about adult or almost adult people behaving like simpletons by pretending that they think several people are just one, over and over and over again. Makes me squeamish about even communicating with these mental midgets
It is in fact damned annoying. Makes me check the whole thread much less frequently than I used to."
Exactly what was the value in your reading a thread about KarenInDallas in the first place. If you're looking for valuable information, surely you didn't expect to find it there, did you?
How much time do you spend looking for valuable information on the "Help! How to Give the Perfect Blowjob" thread? Aren't you a bit of a "simpleton" or a "mental midget" for doing serious research or debating on a thread called "KarenInDallas"?
-
***Makes me check the whole thread much less frequently than I used to.
Precisely their goal. Decrease readership.
The virus has migrated from KarenInDallas to this thread and will consume it as well, if the regulars don't ignore them.
-
On 2005-09-16 06:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No the staff don't twist your arms to make you hike, if you refuse to hike then you are known as whats called a sitter, you will eventually be sent to a group called Bullfrogs where 'bad' kids go. The only punishment about this 'Bullfrogs' group is that you cannot speak to other students in the group. RCA is lovely, im not endorsing it or anything, i went there and enjoyed it very much and got alot out of it."
I find that difficult to buy. If you put all the 'bad kids' together and the only punishment is to order them to silence, what would get them to hike? Also, putting all the 'bad kids' together sounds like a bad idea. The idea of putting poorly behaved kids in the same group is one of the primary reasons psychologists site when concluding tough love programs and detention centers don't work. It's the same reason prisons create criminals. You could also end up with a group rebellion.
I have often heard defenders of these programs say that the abuse allegatons are anectodal, but when you see it on tape with Mike Wallace doing the investigating, it becomes quite convincing. Two kids on the tape claim kids are subjected to arm twisting and physcial pain to force them into hiking. Are you saying they are both telling identical lies?
Perhaps you never refused to hike and so did not experience or see these consequences. Were you assigned to Bullfrogs? How would you know what goes on there?
-
When the kid tells 'Dr Dan' what the staff did to him he doesn't react with surprise, shock, or incredulity. He just says, "What I want to know is why do you think you need to be hurt." :eek:
-
I appreciated the 60 minute clip that was posted. I viewed the clip prior to sending my son to Red Cliff and it really helped me to not be shocked when he had to be restrained within 20 minutes of being there because he didn't want to do the strip search...
What do you think we parents send our kids there for anyway! He was an aggressive drug user who defied authority, who had no regard for people or property. He thought the world owed him a living. Sitting on his butt at home - kicked out of school - dealing drugs out of my garage.
We had given him every therapy possible. Went to parenting class ourselves and lived through years of terror and torment.
So what if he is a little uncomfortable. Actually his letters indicate that he likes it there and is learning a lot of great things.
Not having the comforts of home and the distractions help them to turn inward and really look at their crap.
FYI -- I am not a wealthy person and the cost of a 90 day program is now upwards of 30K -- I don't think parents do this without a great deal of sacrifice and really as a last resort.
What do kids expect will happen to them if they defy their parents?
Nothing -- that is the problem
-
On 2005-10-04 15:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I appreciated the 60 minute clip that was posted. I viewed the clip prior to sending my son to Red Cliff and it really helped me to not be shocked when he had to be restrained within 20 minutes of being there because he didn't want to do the strip search...
What do you think we parents send our kids there for anyway! He was an aggressive drug user who defied authority, who had no regard for people or property. He thought the world owed him a living. Sitting on his butt at home - kicked out of school - dealing drugs out of my garage.
We had given him every therapy possible. Went to parenting class ourselves and lived through years of terror and torment.
So what if he is a little uncomfortable. Actually his letters indicate that he likes it there and is learning a lot of great things.
Not having the comforts of home and the distractions help them to turn inward and really look at their crap.
FYI -- I am not a wealthy person and the cost of a 90 day program is now upwards of 30K -- I don't think parents do this without a great deal of sacrifice and really as a last resort.
What do kids expect will happen to them if they defy their parents?
Nothing -- that is the problem
"
Since when does Wilderness Therapy cure drug addiction?
Sheesh, for that kind of money, you could have sent your son to a REAL drug rehab facility and still had money left over.
:roll:
-
LOOK AT THEIR CRAP?
LMAO ... that's program talk, you idiot parent!
SUCKER!
-
Well, at this particular program they might have the opportunity to literally look at their crap or someone elses. Did you see or hear of the Phantom Duker scene??
-
Why is it that you feel like the kids bear no responsibility for being there in the first place?
My son had the opportunity to do outpatient rehab, therapy as well as NA -- problem is he was never sober long enough to get any benefit.
This is the first time he has been sober in two years. I know WC does not cure anything -- it is a wake up call for the kid that there are consequences for their actions and that there are places and people who will not put up with their behavior.
I am not a "rogram parent" I don't "drink the kool-aid" -- I am a parent who has tried everything and had a child who knew that in the State of California - nothing was going to happen to him.
Like when he was mad at his sister so he bashed in the side of her new car -- police did nothing.
Like when he trew a phone across a classroom and injured a teacher sending her to the emergency room - police did nothing.
Like when we caught him in our home smoking weed - police did nothing.
Like when he trashed his room smashing everything and punching holes in the walls -- police did nothing...
Like when he started stealing from the neighbors and dealing to get his drugs -- Police did nothing
But ya know when he took a swing at the Redcliff staff member he had a take down and funny thing is he has not tried that again... hummm ... wonder why?
Walk a mile in my shoes and then you can judge me --
Again I ask -- what would you do?
-
Sounds like the police did about as much as you did. Although I find it hard to believe that he hurt a teacher and they did nothing. There are children in first grade being handcuffed and taken out of school by police officers, and they harmed no one.
Short of any humane response which is apparently not on your radar.... Ever think of hiring a big burly guy or a relative to knock him down a couple of notches?
Ya know, that's how many traditional cultures dealt with wife/child abusers. I think we should go back to that technique and leave the police to write traffic tickets.
Does your son have a father?
What did he do?
Has your son paid restitution to those he caused damages?
Or was his trip to wilderness his 'unrelated' punishment?
How was your son 'taken down'?
What restraint was used?
How many times?
What were they saying to your son when they had him pinned on the ground?
How long was he pinned?
Why do YOU think your son was so angry?
Did you ever ask? Genuinely, not sarcasticly.
A few round in the ring every now and then with someone a tad bit bigger might have had a similar effect.
Many HAVE walked a mile in your shoes, and chose not to bale. It's your choice to perceive that, and other comments, as judgment.... or not.
You were desperate when your son was showing you his level of distress, now you're desperate to convince others of how justified and helpless you were. ::boohoo::
Does life ever get easy for desperate, struggling parents? Or are you always the victim of someone?
-
Why is it that you feel like the kids bear no responsibility for being there in the first place?
Did your son pick up the phone and call TEEN HELP, aka WWASP? I doubt it.
Again I ask -- what would you do?
I would have done a GOOGLE at the very least and found the hundreds, if not thousands of abuse accounts written by former prisoners and their parents.
If I HAD made the mistake of sending my kid to a program and I started realizing it, I wouldn't go into denial as most parents do. I'd pull them out immediately, apologize profusely and hope they don't shun me for the remainder of their life.
That's what I'd do...
-
On 2005-10-04 16:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why is it that you feel like the kids bear no responsibility for being there in the first place?
My son had the opportunity to do outpatient rehab, therapy as well as NA -- problem is he was never sober long enough to get any benefit.
This is the first time he has been sober in two years. I know WC does not cure anything -- it is a wake up call for the kid that there are consequences for their actions and that there are places and people who will not put up with their behavior.
I am not a "rogram parent" I don't "drink the kool-aid" -- I am a parent who has tried everything and had a child who knew that in the State of California - nothing was going to happen to him.
Like when he was mad at his sister so he bashed in the side of her new car -- police did nothing.
Like when he trew a phone across a classroom and injured a teacher sending her to the emergency room - police did nothing.
Like when we caught him in our home smoking weed - police did nothing.
Like when he trashed his room smashing everything and punching holes in the walls -- police did nothing...
Like when he started stealing from the neighbors and dealing to get his drugs -- Police did nothing
But ya know when he took a swing at the Redcliff staff member he had a take down and funny thing is he has not tried that again... hummm ... wonder why?
Walk a mile in my shoes and then you can judge me --
Again I ask -- what would you do?
"
Sounds like it is YOU who is not taking responsibility. BE A PARENT! You expect everyone else to take control and punish your son for you. The police didn't do it, so you had to pay someone else to do it. Pathetic!
-
On 2005-10-04 15:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I appreciated the 60 minute clip that was posted. I viewed the clip prior to sending my son to Red Cliff and it really helped me to not be shocked when he had to be restrained within 20 minutes of being there because he didn't want to do the strip search...
How would you feel about being strip searched? Is this really necessary, or is it just a good way to humiliate and intimidate a teenager?
We had given him every therapy possible. Went to parenting class ourselves and lived through years of terror and torment.
It was only after I tossed the parenting books and told the therapists what idiots they were, that I was able to turn my own kid around. I know my kid better than they do. In my case, positive reinforcement worked better than any form of punishment.
So what if he is a little uncomfortable. Actually his letters indicate that he likes it there and is learning a lot of great things.
Bow drilling looks great on a resume. What else is he learning? I suspect he is learning a great deal about the nature of power and coercion.
What do kids expect will happen to them if they defy their parents?
Nothing -- that is the problem
That was YOUR problem. When my kid breaks a rule, things happen. Not 'nothing.' Define defiance. I respect my kid's right to disagree. The rules are still enforced.
-
In one sense you are all right....
I as a parent rescued my son, made excuses for my son, spent hours with him in home school when he would get suspended. Spent hours talking to him about what was going on in his life. Took him to countless Dr's... What I thought was helping him may have been destroying him.
I am not a lazy parent...If anything I am over involved.
But how exactly do you control a 6'1" 190 LB boy who is high and is telling you to fuck off?? How do you take away something from a kid who is almost 17 and has nothing left to take away? No car, No phone, No computer, No video games, etc...
I really don't think spanking someone who is almost as big as his father (yes he has one and we have been married for over 25 years) is practical.
This is a kid who was expelled from school (hurting the teacher)they didn't arrest him because he didn't mean to do it ... the teacher got in the way of the phone (that is Carlifornia for you).
I know he didn't get to that place overnight and believe me neither did I.
I just think you should not lump all of the programs into the same lot as the infamous ones that anyone with half a brain and the sligest effort can see are abusive...
Redcliff restrained him once because he swung at the intake coordinator who caught his punch mid air and took him down untill he stopped shouting at them and cursing at them it was all
I did not send him to a WWASP program and I googled and read every place I could find including your site to find negative things about RedCliff. In fact the only reason I even posted here is because I think your site has a great value --
I ruled out several programs especially anything that had anything to do with WWASP or Teen Help or any other organization the refers parents mostly because of this and other sites.
I checked Redcliff them out with the state licening commission... contrary to what you may think they will give negative as well as positive information. I had one person tell me not to send him to a particular program in Utah..
As far as the comment "how would I like it if..."
I would not have put myself in that position in the first place. It was not like it was a surprise to him.
What I am in all sincerity asking you is what could your parents have done differently to help you? Thus the question... What was I supposed to do...
What finally did help you? If you want to be helpful and not hateful then reply -- if not then I won't post again - rather chalk this up to a bunch of angry people who enjoy confrontation without offering any real suggestions to those who do seek you out and give you feedback.
I would be interested in anyone who has had personal experience with RedCliff specifically --
Thanks!
Jackie
-
On 2005-10-05 11:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In one sense you are all right....
I as a parent rescued my son, made excuses for my son, spent hours with him in home school when he would get suspended. Spent hours talking to him about what was going on in his life. Took him to countless Dr's... What I thought was helping him may have been destroying him.
I am not a lazy parent...If anything I am over involved.
But how exactly do you control a 6'1" 190 LB boy who is high and is telling you to fuck off?? How do you take away something from a kid who is almost 17 and has nothing left to take away? No car, No phone, No computer, No video games, etc...
I really don't think spanking someone who is almost as big as his father (yes he has one and we have been married for over 25 years) is practical.
This is a kid who was expelled from school (hurting the teacher)they didn't arrest him because he didn't mean to do it ... the teacher got in the way of the phone (that is California for you).
I know he didn't get to that place overnight and believe me neither did I.
I just think you should not lump all of the programs into the same lot as the infamous ones that anyone with half a brain and the sligest effort can see are abusive...
Redcliff restrained him once because he swung at the intake coordinator who caught his punch mid air and took him down until he stopped shouting at them and cursing at them it was all
I did not send him to a WWASP program and I googled and read every place I could find including your site to find negative things about RedCliff. In fact the only reason I even posted here is because I think your site has a great value --
I ruled out several programs especially anything that had anything to do with WWASP or Teen Help or any other organization the refers parents mostly because of this and other sites.
I checked Redcliff them out with the state licening commission... contrary to what you may think they will give negative as well as positive information. I had one person tell me not to send him to a particular program in Utah..
As far as the comment "how would I like it if..."
I would not have put myself in that position in the first place. It was not like it was a surprise to him.
What I am in all sincerity asking you is what could your parents have done differently to help you? Thus the question... What was I supposed to do...
What finally did help you? If you want to be helpful and not hateful then reply -- if not then I won't post again - rather chalk this up to a bunch of angry people who enjoy confrontation without offering any real suggestions to those who do seek you out and give you feedback.
I would be interested in anyone who has had personal experience with RedCliff specifically --
Thanks!
Jackie
"
I was thinking. I do that sometimes. It was the tone of your initial post that put me off. It was almost as if you delighted in seeing your son restrained and strip searched. You said, "So what if he is a little uncomfortable" That it makes it sound as if you are enjoying his having to go through a punitive experience. The post was inflammatory. It is clear you feel a great deal of anger towards him.
I am sorry that you and your son are having such severe difficulties. I would urge caution when sending a drug user into a wilderness program. They are not a drug rehabilitation program. If your son is addicted to heroin or something like it, the withdrawal can be fatal if not properly handled.
I don't know what I would do if I were in your shoes. I just don't like the methods these programs use. I don't believe for a minute that the tough part of tough love has any benefit at all. I was a troubled teen. My sister was too. I have a great deal of empathy for the kids in these positions. No one chooses to be the bad guy. I know that feeling one has when is being forced to do something that he feels if completely unfair. They would have had to restrain me, too. It isn't a nice feeling. It also isn't helpful, it only builds a sense of anger and powerlessness.
I also object to the idea of forced behavior modification (mind control, brainwashing). To me, forcing a mind set onto someone is always just wrong; regardless of context. At some point I have to say it is his decision to be this way regardless of the outcome and no amount of bad behavior warrants the kind of intervention these programs entail. Not even to (theoretically) save the kid's life. A parent can only do so much. The rest is up to the teenager. There are lines even a parent cannot cross.
I don't have a teen, yet. My boy is only eight. We have already had our troubles with him. He began being violent at age two and three. His behavior became extreme when we divorced. He was expelled from a dozen day care situations. We took parenting classes, read the books and involved therapists. Two CSTs were performed. They all gave us programs that called for discipline, structure, and consistency. They wanted us to send him to a special school (we did not). Everything we did made our boy worse. At some point, something inside me clicked. My son was exactly like I was. Then I had my chance. My ex moved into another state temporarily and our son stayed with me full time. I took to flooding him with attention; hugs, praise, playing with him, talking to him. I did away with ALL punishment. I endured his tantrums and his anger and his violence. Of course, at 6 years old, he could hit and kick me and not really do damage. It worked. His rage and anger just seemed to fade away and we became very close to each other. He became very approval seeking. It only took a few weeks before the school principal phoned and told me what a great job I was doing and how he seemed like a completely different kid. Discipline was there. I gave him jobs. By the time his Mom came back, he was in charge of breakfast, the trash, and clearing the evening dishes and he took these responsibilities seriously. He was proud to point out to me how well he did them. I never had to make him or force him to do anything. He went through all of second grade with As and Bs and no reports of violence. I hope and pray I do as well when he is a teenager.
The moral of the story for me is that if you treat someone with love and respect, they will return love and respect.
-
On 2005-10-04 16:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why is it that you feel like the kids bear no responsibility for being there in the first place?
My son had the opportunity to do outpatient rehab, therapy as well as NA -- problem is he was never sober long enough to get any benefit.
This is the first time he has been sober in two years. I know WC does not cure anything -- it is a wake up call for the kid that there are consequences for their actions and that there are places and people who will not put up with their behavior.
I am not a "rogram parent" I don't "drink the kool-aid" -- I am a parent who has tried everything and had a child who knew that in the State of California - nothing was going to happen to him.
Like when he was mad at his sister so he bashed in the side of her new car -- police did nothing.
Like when he trew a phone across a classroom and injured a teacher sending her to the emergency room - police did nothing.
Like when we caught him in our home smoking weed - police did nothing.
Like when he trashed his room smashing everything and punching holes in the walls -- police did nothing...
Like when he started stealing from the neighbors and dealing to get his drugs -- Police did nothing
But ya know when he took a swing at the Redcliff staff member he had a take down and funny thing is he has not tried that again... hummm ... wonder why?
Walk a mile in my shoes and then you can judge me --
Again I ask -- what would you do?
"
Man, where do you trolls come up with these scripts? Try some originality, please, we have heard this lames-ass-excuse so many times I have lost count.
:smokin:
-
Atomic Ant --
Thank you for the time and the thought you put into your post. You are right the initial tone on my part didn't translate very well on the internet and I guess I am pretty angry and no, I didn't want the restraint to happen to him but at least I knew it was a possibility.
His drug problems were marijuana to quote him directly "I smoked all day every day" and drinking "everything he get his hands on". He tried cocaine and meth and crack....
Where was I :???:
You are wise to trust yourself enough to take matters into your own hands as quickly as you did and trust your instincts when he was small.
Thanks again for the feedback rather than calling me names -- maybe the reason that us "trolls" have familiar sounding "scripts" is because there are a lot of hurting kids and parents out there with no where to turn.
Thanks Again for your insight. That is what people need to hear in a free exchange of ideas..
Jackie
-
I did not send him to a WWASP program and I googled and read every place I could find including your site to find negative things about RedCliff. In fact the only reason I even posted here is because I think your site has a great value --
I ruled out several programs especially anything that had anything to do with WWASP or Teen Help or any other organization the refers parents mostly because of this and other sites.
Well, that's good to hear.
-
I haven't posted in a long time. There was so much going on, and we had no luck removing my stepson from Redcliff by legal means. His mother's permission, and the permission of her 3rd ex-husband (representing himself as the boy's father), along with approximately $31,000 (including the cost of his abduction) was sufficient reason for Redcliff to keep him as long as possible, against my husband's wishes.
FINALLY he did graduate. It took 80 long days. We went to Utah and attended the parent's seminar. Trust me, nobody wants to go through that. It was ongoing hours of listening to Dr. Dan drone on about things that had absolutely no relevance. I went because I expected them to tell us what to expect, and about aftercare. Nope, it was just Dr. Dan enjoying hearing himself speak. People were nodding off. The boy had his FIRST SHOWER IN 80 DAYS. It took about 3 weeks to finally chisel all the filth off him. It's a wonder they didn't all have lice.
Fortunately, one good thing came out of this long saga. The boy revealed enough about his home life to his therapist there that we were able to gain custody of him.
We objected to him being sent to Redcliff because it was done without my husband's knowledge or consent, and against the advice of the boy's evaluating psychologist, who said it could be counterproductive. It was established that all he needed was some regular local counseling to deal with anger issues (and now we know...boy, did he ever have reason to be angry!) and a more stable home environment. For that, he was abducted by strangers and taken to Utah. We had never had any problems with him other than him being quite spoiled, and having a sense of entitlement.
That has sure changed. We brought him home from Utah, and it has been chaos ever since. The experience has nearly ruined him. Of course, he had to enter high school late, so he will likely end up in summer school to attempt to catch up. But he likes his new school. Other than that, he hates everything. He resents having rules to follow (very REASONABLE rules, I might add) and he has blatantly lied to us more times than I can count. He has gotten into trouble, and he refuses to accept that he is grounded as a consequence of his actions. Every day is a constant battle. We've tried to talk to him about the merits of being honest and trustworthy, and he just says that's a bunch of crap, and he doesn't care if he's trustworthy, and why would anybody spend any time thinking about trust? He is extremely disrespectful and cruel. He says he is not going to respect the rules, that he shouldn't HAVE any rules, etc. We read some of his written therapy assignments, in which he says how important trust & truth are, and how he wants to be a better person. He now admits, he learned to play the Redcliff Game, and knew what was expected of him to make him worthy of graduating. All the kids learn the game. He just took longer than average.
Redcliff was advised within a few days of accepting him into their program, that his psychologist warned this was not right for him. They were given a copy of his evaluation. I told him in a letter that the psychologist said he shouldn't be there, and we were trying to get him out. Because I did that, I was banned from writing to him. Now he says his Redcliff therapist told him a different story. She allegedly told the boy she spoke to his psychologist, and she read the evaluation, and she stressed that he DID say he needed to be there. We contacted the psychologist and he said he never heard from anyone from Redcliff. Because he has done nothing but lie since he arrived, I wouldn't be inclined to believe him, but he volunteered the information. And the therapist had lied to us on at least one occasion that we know of, so who knows what the truth is.
Regardless, I would say to any parent who is considering Redcliff: Don't buy into the advertising. Keep in mind that the success statistics they quote on their website were compiled by people who are (directly or indirectly) affiliated with Redcliff (one is actually on their board of directors). Do your research. It DOES NOT WORK. In our case, they knowingly accepted a kid who didn't need it, accepted him under false pretenses, refused to allow his father to withdraw him, and turned him into a frighteningly angry young man. We sleep with our wallets and car keys. His mother turned her relatively normal son over to Redcliff. He had some very justified anger issues over his home life. She expected them to fix him, when she was the one who needed fixing. After 80 days, we returned home with an extremely angry, unmotivated, sarcastic and cruel young man. Redcliff is nothing more than a lucrative business, operating at the expense of children and their families, and a feeder program to get kids into even more lucrative boarding schools. They should be ashamed of themselves. They feed off the desperation of parents, promising to repair their broken children, and teach them responsibility, accountability, and integrity. I mentioned integrity the other day, and he said "What is that?". When I explained, he dismissed it as something he had no interest in. So what DID he learn at Redcliff? He learned how to build a fire without matches, and he learned how to use a knife.
Even though we told Redcliff that nobody in the family could afford to send him to boarding school....it was NOT an option, they continued to provide him with brochures, and even the field staff told him to keep pressing his parents to let him go on to boarding school (I have the field staff's journal notes to prove it). That's where the big money is, so they try to lure the kids on board. The kids don't know any better. They don't understand it's all a big money making scheme.
So, overall it was one big disaster. He has been set behind in school, his attitude is frightening, and we have a LONG road ahead of us. Every day is a new challenge, or a repeat of an old challenge. Nobody from Redcliff has called to ask how he's doing. They don't want to know. They took a good kid and created a monster. They are still counting the cash. And we are trying to save a kid they destroyed.
-
I'm sure all the behavior you are seeing from your stepson is exactly how he was acting at his mother's house. It is not a result of his time at Redcliff. I don't know anything about Redcliff, but the boy you are describing is a troubled teen who needs more therapy than you can provide with him living in your home. You will not be able to live long being held hostage by this boy. You can continue to blame it on the ex-wife and on Redcliff, but the bottom line is that the boy has serious issues and you attempting to set limits is not going to work. Good luck.
-
I'm baffled. We hadn't experienced this kind of behavior from him in the past. He underwent an independent and thorough psych evaluation (prior to Redcliff) which determined he was a normal teenager with some valid anger issues. We now have him in regular ongoing therapy, and I imagine we will for a long time.
Maybe Redcliff has more success with a child who is deeply troubled, on drugs, etc. But it was obviously overkill in his situation. They KNEW his problems didn't warrant his placement there. It WAS, as the psychologist warned (and Redcliff IGNORED), counterproductive.
He went in relatively normal and came out a mess. Magic Wilderness Therapy. You say you know nothing about Redcliff. I'm happy to educate you. Basically a child is dropped off there, or the parents arrange for an abduction, the child arrives, is strip searched, blindfolded while being driven to a remote location, and required to hike in the desert all day. They have a weekly session with the therapist in the field. 80 days of living in the desert, eating oats and lentils, isolated from family and friends. The result is not surprising. Maybe that's why so many of the kids go on to boarding school. It's conceivable Redcliff exacerbates their problems, leaving them ill-prepared to return home.
Attempting to set limits is not going to work? What would you recommend then? No limits? Isn't that a bit irresponsible?
Thanks for the commentary, but all you said is that the blame doesn't belong with his mother and/or Redcliff (and you can say that knowing NOTHING about Redcliff, which is pretty amazing), and that we will not be able to meet his needs while he lives in our home. I assume you are suggesting he needs an out-of-the-home placement (which he has just experienced for 80 days, much to his detriment). We are dedicated to helping him in a loving family/home environment. We knew it wouldn't be easy, but we weren't prepared for the person he had become while at Redcliff.
I wasn't really seeking advice, I just wanted to finish the story for the helpful people who had been following it, now that I have solid knowledge of their methods and results. Our experience with Redcliff was nothing short of disastrous. Others may have different opinions / experiences. I'd be happy to hear from any of them, and I hope they will post on this forum. The more accurate information parents can access, the better decisions thay can make for their children. Too many are only reading the propaganda.
-
On 2005-11-26 11:08:00, Notafriendofredcliff wrote:
"I haven't posted in a long time. There was so much going on, and we had no luck removing my stepson from Redcliff by legal means. His mother's permission, and the permission of her 3rd ex-husband (representing himself as the boy's father), along with approximately $31,000 (including the cost of his abduction) was sufficient reason for Redcliff to keep him as long as possible, against my husband's wishes.
FINALLY he did graduate. It took 80 long days. We went to Utah and attended the parent's seminar. Trust me, nobody wants to go through that. It was ongoing hours of listening to Dr. Dan drone on about things that had absolutely no relevance. I went because I expected them to tell us what to expect, and about aftercare. Nope, it was just Dr. Dan enjoying hearing himself speak. People were nodding off. The boy had his FIRST SHOWER IN 80 DAYS. It took about 3 weeks to finally chisel all the filth off him. It's a wonder they didn't all have lice.
Fortunately, one good thing came out of this long saga. The boy revealed enough about his home life to his therapist there that we were able to gain custody of him.
We objected to him being sent to Redcliff because it was done without my husband's knowledge or consent, and against the advice of the boy's evaluating psychologist, who said it could be counterproductive. It was established that all he needed was some regular local counseling to deal with anger issues (and now we know...boy, did he ever have reason to be angry!) and a more stable home environment. For that, he was abducted by strangers and taken to Utah. We had never had any problems with him other than him being quite spoiled, and having a sense of entitlement.
That has sure changed. We brought him home from Utah, and it has been chaos ever since. The experience has nearly ruined him. Of course, he had to enter high school late, so he will likely end up in summer school to attempt to catch up. But he likes his new school. Other than that, he hates everything. He resents having rules to follow (very REASONABLE rules, I might add) and he has blatantly lied to us more times than I can count. He has gotten into trouble, and he refuses to accept that he is grounded as a consequence of his actions. Every day is a constant battle. We've tried to talk to him about the merits of being honest and trustworthy, and he just says that's a bunch of crap, and he doesn't care if he's trustworthy, and why would anybody spend any time thinking about trust? He is extremely disrespectful and cruel. He says he is not going to respect the rules, that he shouldn't HAVE any rules, etc. We read some of his written therapy assignments, in which he says how important trust & truth are, and how he wants to be a better person. He now admits, he learned to play the Redcliff Game, and knew what was expected of him to make him worthy of graduating. All the kids learn the game. He just took longer than average.
Redcliff was advised within a few days of accepting him into their program, that his psychologist warned this was not right for him. They were given a copy of his evaluation. I told him in a letter that the psychologist said he shouldn't be there, and we were trying to get him out. Because I did that, I was banned from writing to him. Now he says his Redcliff therapist told him a different story. She allegedly told the boy she spoke to his psychologist, and she read the evaluation, and she stressed that he DID say he needed to be there. We contacted the psychologist and he said he never heard from anyone from Redcliff. Because he has done nothing but lie since he arrived, I wouldn't be inclined to believe him, but he volunteered the information. And the therapist had lied to us on at least one occasion that we know of, so who knows what the truth is.
Regardless, I would say to any parent who is considering Redcliff: Don't buy into the advertising. Keep in mind that the success statistics they quote on their website were compiled by people who are (directly or indirectly) affiliated with Redcliff (one is actually on their board of directors). Do your research. It DOES NOT WORK. In our case, they knowingly accepted a kid who didn't need it, accepted him under false pretenses, refused to allow his father to withdraw him, and turned him into a frighteningly angry young man. We sleep with our wallets and car keys. His mother turned her relatively normal son over to Redcliff. He had some very justified anger issues over his home life. She expected them to fix him, when she was the one who needed fixing. After 80 days, we returned home with an extremely angry, unmotivated, sarcastic and cruel young man. Redcliff is nothing more than a lucrative business, operating at the expense of children and their families, and a feeder program to get kids into even more lucrative boarding schools. They should be ashamed of themselves. They feed off the desperation of parents, promising to repair their broken children, and teach them responsibility, accountability, and integrity. I mentioned integrity the other day, and he said "What is that?". When I explained, he dismissed it as something he had no interest in. So what DID he learn at Redcliff? He learned how to build a fire without matches, and he learned how to use a knife.
Even though we told Redcliff that nobody in the family could afford to send him to boarding school....it was NOT an option, they continued to provide him with brochures, and even the field staff told him to keep pressing his parents to let him go on to boarding school (I have the field staff's journal notes to prove it). That's where the big money is, so they try to lure the kids on board. The kids don't know any better. They don't understand it's all a big money making scheme.
So, overall it was one big disaster. He has been set behind in school, his attitude is frightening, and we have a LONG road ahead of us. Every day is a new challenge, or a repeat of an old challenge. Nobody from Redcliff has called to ask how he's doing. They don't want to know. They took a good kid and created a monster. They are still counting the cash. And we are trying to save a kid they destroyed."
I don't normally dole out unsolicited advice, but here goes anyway. Perhaps instead of pressing rules and giving lectures or explanations about honesty and integrity, you should start with empathy and gaining the boy's trust. Any psychologist will tell you that the first and most difficult part of helping a troubled teen is to gain their trust. If he doesn't believe in honesty and integrity and such, ask him what he does believe in and go from there. Let him do the talking. Show an interest in, and acceptance, of what he thinks and how he feels.
I am speaking from my own past. I firmly believe that behind every troubled kid you will somewhere find that they feel like, "No one cares about me." This does not mean people don't care. Obviously, you do. It means the teen is somehow not feeling it. I remember all the attempts to 'save' or 'rescue' me when I was a teen and those that had the least immediate impact but ultimately a life-long impact were not the tough-love approaches and methods or programs, but the kind concerns of teachers, friends' parents, and members of my extended family that simply lent an ear and gave some advice here and there.
I was lucky. When my amoral, atheistic, views of anarchy, narcissm, and nihilsm came out, my father, put aside his leather belt, patiently listened without criticism or contradiction and then directed me towards ways of building a value system without the concepts of legitimate authority, God, and even good and evil (concepts I still reject). It is difficult to build a value system when you don't believe in anything, but it can be done. Does he read? Try Ayn Rand. If he's willing, try the UUA (Unitarian Universalist Association). UU is a liberal religion that encourages young people to question and challenge everything and develop their own beliefs and values.
Don't give up, ever. And good luck.
-
Thanks, Atomic Ant! What thoughtful and intelligent advice!
We hadn't thought much about what he DOES believe in, mainly because it appears he doesn't believe in much of anything beyond having fun, material possessions and social status. But surely there must be something there. His mother forced him into Catholicism to assure his continued enrollment in Catholic School, but he has no desire to attend mass, or to practice the religion. We now have him in public school for the first time, and he loves it. Actually I had recently researched the Unitarians, as they seem to promote free thinking, and it's about time he is encouraged to have some free thoughts of his own. It may be just the place for him to be exposed to diverse thoughts, values and ideas. It's worth pursuing. Right now his thoughts seem to center around ONLY his immediate "wants". I'd love to see him do some reading, and Ayn Rand would be an excellent choice to promote some free thinking. But he sees reading as work, and won't do it. Our house is practically a library, and we read a lot, so maybe he'll eventually see reading as a leisure activity and pick up a book!
We've given up on trying to explain values and other foreign concepts to him. He thinks it's just Redcliff chatter, and he's tired of it. We believed, from his written assignments at Redcliff and the few letters we received from him, that he was gaining an understanding of these things, but he was just playing the game. We have accepted that he will only learn these things by example, and hope we can set that example. He has been told for years that we are evil incarnate, so that will take time. He knows we are consistent, and that we are always here for him. Although he is still belligerent, we can sense that he feels very secure here overall. That's a good start, and probably the best we can expect. He's tried to blackmail us by saying he wants to return to the place where he had no rules to follow, but in the end he said he would not consider leaving here. We have very simple and reasonable rules. He has a set bedtime on school nights, we are all expected to be honest and respectful with each other, and if he goes to visit a friend, we have to know their last name and home phone number. Hardly a gulag situation. He had a really good day yesterday, and we were encouraged. His trust has been violated by nearly everyone in his life who supposedly "cared" for him, so it's going to be a huge adjustment. I believe in time, he will come to trust us, as he sees that we are caring people, and we demonstrate our values in our day-to-day lives. It's up to him to develop his own values....all we can do is be an example. It's something that should have been instilled, or at least demonstrated to him throughout his life, but unfortunately we are starting from scratch.
You hit the nail on the head. He doesn't believe anyone truly loves him, and he believes he's not worthy of being loved. He told us he expected we would physically abuse him, which is not in our nature to do, nor is it a remote possibility. But it was his expectation, as this has been his experience in life. I don't know how long it will take him, if ever, to fully lose that expectation. I try to empathize, but I can only imagine what he has suffered, and how helpless and alone he must have felt. Then he was further victimized by being sent to Redcliff, which only served to reinforce that he deserved to be punished for being abused. All in all, it's amazing that he functions at all.
It sounds like your father is an amazing and insightful man, and his guidance was immeasurable. I'd love to know his methods. I thought I was such an experienced parent, having raised a family in my previous marriage (and my grown children are simply amazing, thoughtful and kind human beings) but this is a totally new challenge for me, and I can't afford to screw it up. He is too important. He IS worth saving, and I love him dearly. Well, now the tears are coming. I really want to help shape him in life, without putting him into a mold. I want him to be able to think for himself, form his own opinions, and he's never been allowed to do that before. Most of all, I want him to KNOW he is loved, and that he DESERVES to be loved. We will love him even when he's being a little snot. We will love him when he makes mistakes. We may not always like him, but we will love him. It will take time for him to realize this, I know.
Thanks so much for the insightful and helpful advice!
-
On 2005-11-26 16:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
I'm sure all the behavior you are seeing from your stepson is exactly how he was acting at his mother's house. It is not a result of his time at Redcliff.
Thanks, Miss Cleo! :rofl: Government can do something for the people only in proportion as it can do something to the people
Thomas Jefferson.
-
Well, here's my .02 worth. Instead of thinking of his recent ordeal as just damage, consider the kinds of strength and determination the kid had to master in order to survive it. You might worry that he keeps his cards soooo close and won't trust you or ask you for advice. But look at how well that has served him. If he hadn't mastered that, more than likely he would have done what most of these kids do and help pressure you guys to send him to a gulag school, believing either that he needed it or that failure to say so would get him locked down even further.
Once your parents raise the stakes to all out war status, I think there's no going back. Surviving one of these wilderness camps is, in my opinion, a whole lot like (but not idential to) being a war vet. So, to a certain extent, you have to treat him like a grown man. Ground him? Puh-leeze! He knows damned well he could dissapear into the relatively comfortable wilderness of, say, the Smoky Mountains or some urban jungle. In fact, I know a guy who eventually landed up in Straight in the `80's who did just that. After Outward Bound, he needed to get away from his psycho parents. So he found a tarp and built a little lean-to in the woods outside of town and took a little vacation for like a year or two.
Your step son is very, very fortunate to have understanding adults like you guys on his side. Just try to be very careful in picking your battles.
Stealing from you? Obviously a problem. That he doesn't get that? Well, maybe he just can't afford to believe that anyone, even you, is worthy of his trust or respect right now. I can certainly understand how that would happen. But here's the thing, whatever he's not talking to you about is still happening. Is he treating his new school friends like this? Whether he tells you about it or not, it'll still hurt if/when that comes back to bite him in the ass. Maybe, maybe, he'll trust you enough to take that safe harbour in a storm when he needs it if you're careful to steer well clear of his definition of an enemy.
At least, that's how I felt and what I needed when I finally got out. It was a looooong time, though for me. I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there.
--Robert Frost, American poet
-
More great advice! Thanks! We know the damage that has been done to him, but we also have praised him on the courage and strength it took for him to finish the Redcliff program. We try to stress that to him, even though we privately believe the program is simply bogus. We feel it's important for him to NOT to believe it was a total waste of his time, and trust me, that's not easy considering how we truly feel. It's somewhat like supporting a war, lest the casualties of war will have sacrificed in vain. We've told him if he could survive Redcliff, there's nothing he can't conquer. That's about the most we can say to him about it, without being dishonest.
We aren't worried that he would steal from us. But then we really don't know WHO he is at this point. The reason we sleep with our wallets and car keys is so we won't unwittingly give him the means to run away. At this time, we are just "covering the bases" for his own protection. Of course, he could leave on foot at any time, but we don't want to enable him.
We'll have good days and bad days, and I'm confident eventually the good will prevail. It will be a long road. He seems to do well with his friends so far. No indication that he's treating them badly. So that's encouraging. We'll continue to keep the emotional door open to him if he wants to talk about anything. I suppose that's not going to happen until he trusts us. We can wait. We're not going anywhere. Eventually he may come to understand we are his advocates. We are hopeful.
Thanks for helping. Your support and advice is appreciated. Who is this Miss Cleo person? Is she for real?
-
On 2005-11-28 11:29:00, Notafriendofredcliff wrote:
"We know the damage that has been done to him, but we also have praised him on the courage and strength it took for him to finish the Redcliff program. We try to stress that to him, even though we privately believe the program is simply bogus."
None of my business but I am not sure it is wise to conceal your opinion of RedCliff. Your silence may be taken as tacit approval. This might lead him to the conclusion that you are "the enemy" too.
-
We feel it's important for him to NOT to believe it was a total waste of his time, and trust me, that's not easy considering how we truly feel.
Why not just be honest? It sounds to me like you are trying to cover your own ass.
-
Why would you say that? I don't understand why you think I'm covering my ass. I just don't want him to feel more angry that 80 days of his life was totally wasted.
-
On 2005-11-28 08:32:00, Notafriendofredcliff wrote:
"Thanks, Atomic Ant! What thoughtful and intelligent advice!
It sounds like your father is an amazing and insightful man, and his guidance was immeasurable. I'd love to know his methods.
"
My Dad taught high school kids for forty years. He had lots of experience with teens. I never had a chance. :grin:
-
Hi,
I have to say that I have had a totally different experience with Redcliff. Yes the parent seminar was a little rough (exactly like you said) but if you hung with Doc Dan until the end he had a great message that actually addressed what you wanted to know -- what to expect -- and for me why this happened in the first place.
Your aftercare should have been addressed long before that seminar -- but then it sounds like you have sooo many more complex relationship issues then our family.
We are intact and very involved -- we were willing to go to counseling while he was gone and work on our issues and what we did to contribute to his problem.
I think your case was so much different because of all of the Drama -- Like you said your Son didn't need to be there and I can see that for a kid who does not need to be there this would be a very rough experience -- considering what your son has been through I can't imagine how tough this was for him.
My son thanked us for sending him and he was really proud that he could take care of himself no matter what. He didn't need to depend on anyone or anything to make him OK -- he truely was a different kid.
He said that he feels happy inside for the first time in a long time.He is looking forward to returning as a leader in a few years.
OK so you can now all post things like I am a program parent and my son is brainwashed etc....but Redcliff saved my Son's life.
He is at a non-profit boarding school right now and loves it -- we were very careful about where to send him. Maybe we got lucky -- maybe wilderness was the right choice for our son since the next step for him was jail or death. Rehab didn't work. Parenting classes didn't work, all the love in the world didn't work... he needed something extreme.
I sent a foul mouthed, expelled for hitting a teacher, drug addict and what I got back in 100+ days was a confident young man who knows who he is and what he wants out of life.
Was it tough -- actually I can't really even begin to imagine how tough -- some of the stories he tells -- If I had known how tough it was I would have chickened out and not sent him.
The difference is that he wears this experience like a badge of honor. He did something well that most people could not do -- yes in many ways it was like going to war -- but then that is what I was in -- a war to save this childs life. He won - he did it on his own without me.
I know you think I am wacked but this is our reality --
-
Thank you for sharing your experience. If I may ask, did you bring your son home with you before he went on to boarding school?
Maybe Doc Dan was having an off day when we attended the seminar. We did hang on until the bitter end. We waited endlessly to hear him offer anything about aftercare. Prior to the graduation, all we were told was to set him up with a local therapist before bringing him home. Duh.
I'm sure Redcliff accepted your son based on his past history of drug abuse, etc., and the knowledge that you had done everything possible to help him. I still believe there should be some due process afforded anyone of any age before they are subjected to WT, but I'm not trying to judge you. You did what you thought was best, as a last resort.
Unfortunately, their system is purposefully flawed. If the parents have the ability to pay, that's the only real requirement for enrollment. In our case, they accepted him based on an obviously fraudulent enrollment contract signed by his disturbed mother and an unrelated third party who signed as his father. They disregarded the psych evaluation that said he shouldn't be there. Nothing significant was done for him prior to being abducted and taken to Redcliff. Even though their enrollment contract clearly states that any parent may remove their child for any reason, they refused to allow my husband to remove him. They actively and deliberately denied my husband his rights as a father, and knowingly held a child who was sent there for all the wrong reasons. He (and we) will be paying the price for this for years to come.
I'm glad to hear that your son's experience was a positive one and I hope he continues to show improvement. Knowing what we know about Redcliff, it's a minor miracle. I hope he doesn't have to stay in a boarding school for too long, as he has already been isolated too long from his family.
-
Thanks for your reply --
We had about a week alone with my son before we went on to boarding school. Not once did he ask me if he could come home rather than go on to school.
Considering the experience we had with redcliff I am shocked at your experience.
It really does sound like two different places and I am sorry for your experience.
Aftercare was something my son's therapist, my husband and I discussed early on. They never pushed me one way or another and they actually refused to make a reccommendation to any specific school. They just helped us process our options -- including bringing him home.
In fact they actually discouraged me from sending him to Discovery Academy or Discovery Ranch which are the ones that Redcliff is affiliated with.
Did you get to participate in the weekly conference calls with the therapist? That was where we did most of our aftercare discussions.
Also my husband and I sought out private counseling just to get a balanced opioion about aftercare.
The private therapist has no affiliation with any schools or programs. He was a former herion addict and said that aftercare was essential to having any chance of a lasting outcome.
I found my son's boarding school on my own. I researched it with the state and through web sites -- even sites like these... then I went for a visit. I was allowed complete access to the facility. We got to eat lunch with the kids and the program was just exactly right for my son.
I learned about their treatment concept by reading a text book on the subject as well as doing internet research on the method. Then we went there at saw it in action -- unstaged action -- it was awesome.
He gets to call home for 30 minutes a week and we get calls every few days. He says he is having a great time and enjoys the art program and the school. He has a lot of freedom and enjoys the other boys in his peer group.
He knows that he needs to practice life in a more structured environment than I could provide -- where he can make mistakes that don't cost him his life.
What I am kind of afraid of is that your son knew that you guys were trying to get him out so he didn't have to take it seriously.
If he didn't take it seriously then it was a giant waste of money and time for everyone involved.
I hope I am not right but I am afraid your son is acting with you like he was with his Mom and that since he knows that one or the other of your two families with rescue him he does not need to be accountable for his actions -- there are no consequences.
I can only see this getting worse -- especially since in effect he "won" by getting back at the people who put him there in the first place. That gives him tremendous power -- he will wield that power against you now at every turn.
Like Doc Dan said -- he is on developmental vacation. The problem is is that now he can use Redcliff as an excuse for further bad behavior. It is not his fault -- he was messed up by Redcliff...
He now knows that Redcliff is a card he can pull with you and you will back off -- it is the hairy scary monster in the basement... ya know what I mean... along with the Divorces and the power struggles and the awful things you say were going on in his home -- what a mess!
Also -- don't be so sure you are not dealing with drugs here... actually I would be surprised if you were not.
My son was in therapy since he was in 3rd grade -he did the outpatient thing (giant waste of money and time) We did medication, an 18 week parenting class, group therapy, home school -- you name it -- we did it.
He only changed because he wanted to change. Wilderness gave him the confidence to go forward and know that no matter what happens in his life he can take care of himself.
He knew it was his last chance -- he was also almost 17 -- I think that is older than your son.
Don't underestimate the power of the bow drill and knife -- if the kid is working the program then those things mean something to him...they are badges of honor -- they mean something.
My son was out there for over 100 days. He says he was "hard core". Not once did he complain to us in letters about anything the whole time he was there.
He knew why he was there and knew that this was a chance to work on himself and that we were prepared to have that take as long at it took -- there was nothing magical about 30-60-or 90 or even 100 days....
Best of luck to you and your very personal situation. I hope you find what your looking for.
I think we have and it is a brigher day for all of us.
Redcliff Fan :smile:
-
Hmm.... now THAT sounds familiar. :wink:
-
On 2005-12-19 18:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thanks for your reply --
We had about a week alone with my son before we went on to boarding school. Not once did he ask me if he could come home rather than go on to school.
Considering the experience we had with redcliff I am shocked at your experience.
It really does sound like two different places and I am sorry for your experience.
Aftercare was something my son's therapist, my husband and I discussed early on. They never pushed me one way or another and they actually refused to make a reccommendation to any specific school. They just helped us process our options -- including bringing him home.
In fact they actually discouraged me from sending him to Discovery Academy or Discovery Ranch which are the ones that Redcliff is affiliated with.
Did you get to participate in the weekly conference calls with the therapist? That was where we did most of our aftercare discussions.
Also my husband and I sought out private counseling just to get a balanced opioion about aftercare.
The private therapist has no affiliation with any schools or programs. He was a former herion addict and said that aftercare was essential to having any chance of a lasting outcome.
I found my son's boarding school on my own. I researched it with the state and through web sites -- even sites like these... then I went for a visit. I was allowed complete access to the facility. We got to eat lunch with the kids and the program was just exactly right for my son.
I learned about their treatment concept by reading a text book on the subject as well as doing internet research on the method. Then we went there at saw it in action -- unstaged action -- it was awesome.
He gets to call home for 30 minutes a week and we get calls every few days. He says he is having a great time and enjoys the art program and the school. He has a lot of freedom and enjoys the other boys in his peer group.
He knows that he needs to practice life in a more structured environment than I could provide -- where he can make mistakes that don't cost him his life.
What I am kind of afraid of is that your son knew that you guys were trying to get him out so he didn't have to take it seriously.
If he didn't take it seriously then it was a giant waste of money and time for everyone involved.
I hope I am not right but I am afraid your son is acting with you like he was with his Mom and that since he knows that one or the other of your two families with rescue him he does not need to be accountable for his actions -- there are no consequences.
I can only see this getting worse -- especially since in effect he "won" by getting back at the people who put him there in the first place. That gives him tremendous power -- he will wield that power against you now at every turn.
Like Doc Dan said -- he is on developmental vacation. The problem is is that now he can use Redcliff as an excuse for further bad behavior. It is not his fault -- he was messed up by Redcliff...
He now knows that Redcliff is a card he can pull with you and you will back off -- it is the hairy scary monster in the basement... ya know what I mean... along with the Divorces and the power struggles and the awful things you say were going on in his home -- what a mess!
Also -- don't be so sure you are not dealing with drugs here... actually I would be surprised if you were not.
My son was in therapy since he was in 3rd grade -he did the outpatient thing (giant waste of money and time) We did medication, an 18 week parenting class, group therapy, home school -- you name it -- we did it.
He only changed because he wanted to change. Wilderness gave him the confidence to go forward and know that no matter what happens in his life he can take care of himself.
He knew it was his last chance -- he was also almost 17 -- I think that is older than your son.
Don't underestimate the power of the bow drill and knife -- if the kid is working the program then those things mean something to him...they are badges of honor -- they mean something.
My son was out there for over 100 days. He says he was "hard core". Not once did he complain to us in letters about anything the whole time he was there.
He knew why he was there and knew that this was a chance to work on himself and that we were prepared to have that take as long at it took -- there was nothing magical about 30-60-or 90 or even 100 days....
Best of luck to you and your very personal situation. I hope you find what your looking for.
I think we have and it is a brigher day for all of us.
Redcliff Fan :smile:
"
You've managed to include every selling point in the teen help book in your last two posts. You even try to instill desparation and fear into these other parents and tell them you suspect drugs (with zero evidence). Wonderful.
1. would otherwise be dead or in jail
2. last resort
3. aftercare essential for lasting outcome
4. when it doesn't work, blame the kid, not the program
Noting I've read changes my view. The tough-love approach is still wrong, even if it occassionally appears to work. The approach of breaking someone and then rebuilding them can never be a valid option. No one should ever be forced into a situation where they will be psychologically broken. Spending 100 days in a Wilderness Program is cruel and inhumane, no matter the results.
No one should be denied the right to choose their own path in life; even if that path is destructive. It is their life and their choice.
I see the following path for any teen sent to a program:
1. Initially, disbelief, fear, anger, frustration, helplessness, hopelessness. They are caught. They cannot escape. They were either lied to or betrayed and kidnapped to get there.
2. Futility, apathy, they realize they are stuck and cannot get out.
3. Some may fake it. Some may enthusiastically adopt the program. It is the only way out, so all will eventually try to work the program.
4. Setbacks. Something happens to bring them back to stage one. This could an injustice they cannot ignore, or a series of small events that builds up (since no oppositional voice is permitted). They crack and act out, are punished, and have to stay longer. The same feelings as in number 1 return. This is good for profit. The longer the stay, the more money they make. Saying your son was 'hardcore' is just another way of saying he resisted their attempts to break him a bit longer.
5. Those that adopt the program view enthusiastically get through it and sometimes even want to become part of it. Those that fake it or simply adopt it temporarily to survive fare much worse and develop more emotional scars. Some simply break and become programmed. They move through the program like robots.
6. Graduation. The success rate is high because unless the parents pull a kid, they must graduate to leave. Graduation means little. It was a forced event. The kid survived. Those that wanted to change and accepted that change view this as an accomplishment. Those that did not want to change and were forced through the program feel they were abused. They become angry and sometimes worse off than before.
Even the language you use about the kid 'winning.' What does he win? Is this a war between parent child? I think it is. I think the war can be stopped without a winner. They only way to win a war with a child is to break the child's will.
-
Well said. Well done.
-
We shall see...only time will tell.
For us, for now - Redcliff was the best thing that ever happened to my son -- just ask him -- he'll tell you.
He said he thought that everyone should go there and that it was a great experience.
He was "hard core" because he said he liked it --he liked to hike, he liked the structure, he liked the peer group -- He even liked the food --I am serious he never complained about anything. He was never "broken down" by anyone or anything -- he looked at this as an opportunity to get clean and look at his stuff.
Maybe that is the difference -- maybe wilderness has its place for a certain type of kid and a certain set of circumstances.
There is no doubt that the majority of these kids come from privledged backgrounds and have most likely been given way too much by busy parents who don't take the time to parent thier kids until it is too late.
I'll give you that! But for us it was a way to break the cycle of drugs and violence and let him earn his way in a safe place.
No matter how hard the wilderness is it is still far better than the streets. My son said that he was able to be himself -- he didn't need to worry about being a tough guy to avoid getting beat up.
Another thing my son said was -- he felt as if he had accomplished somthing all on his own for the first time in his life -- you see Mommy (me) was always rescuing him and making things OK for him and seeing to it that he never had to take responsibility for his actions.
At Redcliff he was made to feel proud of himself. He was made to feel capable and worthy of trust and respect... He became a leader in a positive sense.
Maybe wilderness is being too broadly applied to kids for which this experience turns out to be very bad thing.
I am not stupid or brainwashed as you might suggest. I am not part of the teen industry either.
I am just a Mom who loves her son and is so proud of him and what he has accomplished.
You will never understand nor do I expect you too. You hold your beliefs as tightly as I do mine and that is what makes places like this great.
We can be free to disagree without getting nasty with each other -- people who read this can get both sides and come away with far more information than if we all just agreed with one another.
Redcliff Fan
-
On 2005-12-20 15:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
But for us it was a way to break the cycle of drugs and violence and let him earn his way in a safe place.
No matter how hard the wilderness is it is still far better than the streets.
No, not really.
http://orange-papers.org/orange-gulags.html (http://orange-papers.org/orange-gulags.html)
Tony Haynes, Michelle Sutton, Aaron Bacon, Dawnne Takeuchi, Nicholaus Contreraz, Gina Score, Michael Wiltsie, William "Eddie" Lee....the list goes on and on....See FICA
http://www.ficausa.com/deaths.html (http://www.ficausa.com/deaths.html)
-
On 2005-12-20 15:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We shall see...only time will tell.
For us, for now - Redcliff was the best thing that ever happened to my son -- just ask him -- he'll tell you.
He said he thought that everyone should go there and that it was a great experience.
He was "hard core" because he said he liked it --he liked to hike, he liked the structure, he liked the peer group -- He even liked the food --I am serious he never complained about anything. He was never "broken down" by anyone or anything -- he looked at this as an opportunity to get clean and look at his stuff.
Maybe that is the difference -- maybe wilderness has its place for a certain type of kid and a certain set of circumstances.
There is no doubt that the majority of these kids come from privledged backgrounds and have most likely been given way too much by busy parents who don't take the time to parent thier kids until it is too late.
I'll give you that! But for us it was a way to break the cycle of drugs and violence and let him earn his way in a safe place.
No matter how hard the wilderness is it is still far better than the streets. My son said that he was able to be himself -- he didn't need to worry about being a tough guy to avoid getting beat up.
Another thing my son said was -- he felt as if he had accomplished somthing all on his own for the first time in his life -- you see Mommy (me) was always rescuing him and making things OK for him and seeing to it that he never had to take responsibility for his actions.
At Redcliff he was made to feel proud of himself. He was made to feel capable and worthy of trust and respect... He became a leader in a positive sense.
Maybe wilderness is being too broadly applied to kids for which this experience turns out to be very bad thing.
I am not stupid or brainwashed as you might suggest. I am not part of the teen industry either.
I am just a Mom who loves her son and is so proud of him and what he has accomplished.
You will never understand nor do I expect you too. You hold your beliefs as tightly as I do mine and that is what makes places like this great.
We can be free to disagree without getting nasty with each other -- people who read this can get both sides and come away with far more information than if we all just agreed with one another.
Redcliff Fan
"
I have on my hard drive a clip from a program aired on 60 minutes and reported by Mike Wallace. Two kids report to Mike that the program uses painful arm and wrist twisting to force reluctant teens to hike. A therapist takes a kid to a place where he believes he is out of earshot, the crew has a directional microphone and picks up the talking. The kid asks his therapist why counselors are hurting him to force him to hike. The therapist responds with, "Why do you think I want you to be hurt?"
The other boy is a slightly built 13 year old that has been in the wilderness for over 80 days and when Mike asks him why so long, he responds that it is because he is 'hard core' and likes to do things the 'hard way.' Sound familiar? He sounds like he is parroting counselors to me. Mike Wallace points out that this slightly built youngster is subjected to same length hikes with the same gear as all the other students including much bigger, stronger, older boys.
In another part of the expose, they show a reluctant boy about to be strip searched. If you cannot empathize with the look of fear, confusion, and helplessness in this boy's mannerisms and expressions, you simply have no feelings. It is clear he does not want this and clear he realizes he will come out the loser if he protests in any way. The program explains how all the teens are stripped searched and all their belongings taken from them. Since many of these kids arrived by escort who abducted them in the middle of the night, there is no realistic chance they have contraband. This strip search is solely to humiliate the teen and show the teen clearly who is in charge. They use the kids' confiscated clothes as a scent item for the search dogs in case a kid runs away.
A staff member shows Mike a collection of objects that kids have used to assault counselors. He states these serve as reminders to be alert. He shows Mike the map where each kid is located with their group. The markers representing the kids are color and shape coded to show those who are potentially violent or potential suicide risks. Nice safe place, this. This same staff member tells a story of a teen assaulting him with a piece of wood. The teen goes to court and the judge orders the teen to finish the program. Nice. They sent a demonstrably violent person to be with your son.
You say your son liked the structure? I despise the term 'structure' in the context of these camps. When a parent, like me, thinks of structure, we think of the basic routines by which a household runs. We understand that routine, certainty, and consistency make kids feel safe. When these camps use the word 'structure' they are referring to a system of harshly enforced rules concerning petty matters like the morning routine which is timed. In fact, I see these programs using loaded language to reassure parents and soften the description of what they really do. They never explicitly say, "We force the kids to hike. We scream in their faces during confrontational therapy. We force them to disclose personal secrets."
-------
Wilderness therapy can be a good thing. I went to a wilderness program at age 15. I did not realize I was forced into it. I thought I was a volunteer. It was like the one you describe above. It did not have ridiculous rules or confrontational therapy. It was more like an Outward Bound type of program. It pushed my limits and I discovered I could do things I would have otherwise thought impossible. I never thought to rebel against it because I believed I was volunteer.
Funny thing. I am in my forties now and over Thanksgiving I hooked up with some old high school friends. The Wilderness program came up in conversation and one friend said, "We always wondered why you were sent. It seemed like they were sending the trouble makers and you were an honor student on the track team." I told him I volunteered. Another friend interrupted and said, "Actually, we were told not to let you out of the room until you agreed to go. We were glad you liked it, because we were worried if you didn't, you'd come back and kick our asses." Now that I recall that intervention, I remember how they really wanted me to sign the paper then and there. When I told them I would need to ask my parents first, a teacher said, "We will take care of that." At the time, this made sense because my Dad was a teacher at the same high school. I just thought this teacher would see him during the day before I would that night. Now I wonder what role my Dad played in all this. I never asked him.
-
Again, well put. These places are dangerous and, let's remember, there's no such thing as "wilderness therapy," only wilderness trips. There is NO THERAPEUTIC VALUE to being in the wilderness. Therapeutic value comes from THERAPY, not hiking.
Saying "Wilderness Therapy" is like saying "Prison Therapy." Neither is an actual form of therapy, but have surprisingly similar "success rates" (75% recidivism). Sending your kid to wilderness is no more therapeutic than sending him to jail.
-
Saying "Wilderness Therapy" is like saying "Prison Therapy." Neither is an actual form of therapy, but have surprisingly similar "success rates" (75% recidivism). Sending your kid to wilderness is no more therapeutic than sending him to jail.
Brilliant!!
Deborah
-
Jail, prison therapy, whatever.... All I know is that my son came back a far better person for the experience.
I am sure there are bad programs out there and kids that should have never been put there...
You for example -- why in the world would your parents send you to a wilderness program when you were obviously functioning so well in many area's of your life... that does sound crazy! :???:
Kind of like killing a fly with a sledgehammer.
Some of the stories on the board sound absolutely absurd! First time offenses of shoplifting or kids that backtalk their parents and they get sent to wilderness therapy - that is just wrong.
I think there are very few of us out there that were angels when we were teens. I did my share of drugs, drank and engaged in some pretty risky behavior -- but I was also able to function well in the other area's of my life - to me that is the difference
I guess I thought that the kids that went there were more like my son.
In fact, the four other boys that graduated with him all had similar backgrounds to his.. one boy had been repeatedly arrested and spent quite a bit of time in jail. All four were heavy drug users and had been expelled from school for arious reason from violence to selling drugs on campus.
I think if I sent my daughter or son there thinking that this was anything other than the last stop for seriously messed up kids before turning them over to the state or the street then I would be shocked.
My son was well forwarned that if he continued doing what he was doing that we would have no choice but to remove him from our home (he was violent and using drugs in our home, expelled from school,dealing drugs and stealing from family members as well as neighbors to support his habit)
When he wrestled me to the ground in a physical stuggle when I tried to take away his pipe -- that was the last straw. I no longer felt safe in my own home.
We offered him outpatient rehab, therapy, alternative school, home school and NA (he went to the meetings high -- also a great place to make more drug connections).
We did everything first -- this was a last resort. I agree with you that it is like prison in many ways.
But with all of that said -- All I know is that my son called me from boarding school this morning all excited to tell me how much he liked it and that they were having a christmas dance with the girls dorms and that one of the girls had made a big deal of asking him to be her date to the dance.
He loves the art program and actually has developed an interest in something other than drugs for the first time in his life.
He is clean and sober and dealing with his stuff on a daily basis.
They spent Sunday watching Football in the Recroom and working out in the weightroom and playing basketball...He can use the phone whenever he wants.
I don't know but that does not sound like gulog to me.
Wilderness was exactly where he needed to be. I also saw the Mike Wallace clip (actually right here on this website)
My son was restrained within 20 minutes of arriving and within the first few weeks threatened a counsler with a tree branch... these were all learning experiences for him...
One of the biggest lessons he learned was that there were people in this world who would not put up with his crap and who he could not intimidate into giving him his own way.
I have to say that my "son" is actually a man -- 6'2" and 190lbs. He was bigger than most of the leaders...
Anyway -- to each his own. I know in my heart that what I did was right for my son. He has thanked me over and over again...
Maybe it was a fluke and if it is then I am grateful for it -
-
I guess I should not have used the term 'Wilderness Therapy." In the wilderness trip I was in, there was no therapy. There were no therapists. There were no group therapy sessions. It was 30 years ago and so many details escape me. I remember we met as a group at the beginning and we all listed goals we had for the program. A counselor added 'develop leadership skills' to my list. I was pretty shy as a teen. After we went through some exercise or other, we would meet and discuss if it fit our expectations and what, if anything, we got out of it.
During one meeting, we were asked to pick a person in the group and say something we liked about that person. There was no feedback allowed to these comments.
No confrontational stuff took place at all.
The high point for me was rock climbing and rappelling. I was (and still am) afraid of heights. It took the counselors at least thirty minutes to talk me over the edge. I cried like a baby. One counselor told me, "If you don't do this now, you will always look back at this moment in your life and regret having not done it." Those words rang true and over I went. Rappelling was so much fun, I did it three more times. I was dropping like a special forces soldier by the end of the day and felt like a boy on fire.
I was sorry they could not get that kid Derrick on Brat Camp to do any of that; rappelling, ropes, trust fall. I did them all and it took all my will to do so, but was well worth it.
This past summer, my eight-year-old wanted me to take him on a mountain gondola. I am still afraid of heights, but not wanting to deny him this experience, I went anyway. He had a great time teasing me by saying things like, "Just think Dad, only one cable is holding us up here and if it goes..." I wanted to strangle him. We took tons of pictures and we will both remember it forever.
---------
But, we digress. You mention you saw the video clip (yes, I copied it from this website) and yet you don't object to the way they forced these kids to hike? You don't mind the strip search? You think that your son was restrained is okay?
What if your son, instead of just threatening a counselor with a tree branch, had killed him instead?
It surprises me, reading about this industry, that there are only a few stories of kids killing other kids and no stories of kids killing staff.
-
Ugh, I'm very stressed, someone give me a nice sloppy blow job...
-
Well -- When we got alone and away from the program I asked him if he was ever physically "forced" to hike.
He said no but that if you "sat" then everyone had to stop and they just waited the person out. The longer they sat the later they got to camp and the person got to see that their actions had a negative effect on everyone.
There were times they were waiting over an hour for someone to get up.
My son actually got in trouble for giving a "sitter" a hard time. He called him a wienee -he got in more trouble for talking to him like that than the kid did for sitting.
My son said that the kids actually looked forward to hiking -- now let me say that my son was not out there in the dead of summer but rather in the late summer and fall when the weather is pretty darn nice. In the winter they wanted to hike to keep warm -- they played games, told stories and jokes and sang songs on the trail.
One of things that was used as a reward when the kids were working well as a group and everyone passed off a phase was something called a three peak. That was when they would hike to three mountain peaks in one week -- it was a big deal for them.
They also didn't just wander around in the desert. They went places, they went to a few lakes, a ghost town and even exploring some caves.
They ensured that the kids drank at least 4 quarts of water (they had to get it passed off every day).
He said that at first it was physically hard for him but soon he built up his endurance and enjoyed the hiking -- also we are talking about a good size boy who is more than capable of carrying around a heavy pack.
They would all hike in for parties called "shin digs" to a base camp where all of the groups would hike in and they would have skits, contests and tons of food...They also had a ropes course there.
I saw it with my own eyes - and actually spent the night there in 8 degree weather eating the same food and sleeping in a similar bag outside without shelter on the ground right next to my son - so did his dad. It was hard but also very beautiful - I had never seen so many stars and really felt the quiet peace of the wilderness.
As far as the tree branch goes -- you have to remember this is the kind of thing my kid was doing at home -- only with a baseball bat -- at least these leaders were able to talk him down and show him that they were not afraid of him and get to the root of his anger which was mostly frustration. I would have been horrified in either case (home or wilderness) if something had happened.
The strip search was necessary to keep everyone safe. They needed to make sure the kids didn't come in with anything the good Lord didn't send them into this world with.
Same thing as Jail -- for the same reasons -- we are not talking about girl scouts here -- or I guess we shouldn't be....
I have always said to my son ....
"If you lay down with dogs - you get up with fleas"
In other words, if you don't want unpleasent things to happen to you then you shouldn't make the choices that get you in those situations in the first place.
The choices he made landed him there -- remember we gave him full forwarning -- even to the point of showing him a brochure -- especially in the days immediately preceeding his departure.
If these kids are in as bad of shape as my son then I'm sure they had been or soon would have been in far more disgusting surroundings than a strip search -- in fact they were laughing about it at graduation.
Honestly that is what baffles me about Redcliff detractors -- my son is not intimidated by anyone and if anything had happened out there that was abusive he would have no trouble telling me about it.
They also gave each one of the kids a survey at the end of the program to get their feedback on every aspect of the program from intake, gear, food, group, leaders etc...
There is no doubt that there are awful programs out there but I don't think Redcliff is one of them -- the industry is ripe for abuse and not well legislated or controlled and parents send kids who don't need to be there...
But for kids like my son -- it was just the ticket.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts -- I know my point of view seems unthinkable to you but then again I hope that you never reach the point with your precious son that I did with mine. Perhaps your insight and experiences as a youth will actually help you achieve that hope.
Take care..
-
When he wrestled me to the ground in a physical stuggle when I tried to take away his pipe -- that was the last straw. I no longer felt safe in my own home.>>>
aggression begets aggression.
typically by this age parents realize that strong arm tactics don't work. those who haven't figured out a different strategy resort to hired aggressors.
-
On 2005-12-23 15:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There is no doubt that there are awful programs out there but I don't think Redcliff is one of them -- the industry is ripe for abuse and not well legislated or controlled and parents send kids who don't need to be there...
"
There is only ONE reason parents are ABLE to send kids who don't need to be there. Redcliff knowingly ACCEPTS those kids, with no due process, and in our case against the recommendation of a qualified professional. It is a highly profitable business that preys on desperate parents. At some point they have to be accountable, and begin to make some cursory validation of the child's history. Presently, the only true requirement is the ability to pay. Once that is established, they will promptly incarcerate your child for you. Anyone looking at an enrollment application for wilderness therapy would expect to see a history of drug abuse, theft, truancy and/or violence. And one would expect to see a long list of traditional therapy treatments that were explored prior to taking such a radical step. My step-son's application had none of that. No reasonable person would have believed he could be enrolled based on the information they were given. That should have been a red flag. It wasn't. A valid credit card authorization was included with the application; that was all that mattered.
-
On 2006-01-03 22:08:00, Notafriendofredcliff wrote:
"
On 2005-12-23 15:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There is no doubt that there are awful programs out there but I don't think Redcliff is one of them -- the industry is ripe for abuse and not well legislated or controlled and parents send kids who don't need to be there...
"
There is only ONE reason parents are ABLE to send kids who don't need to be there. Redcliff knowingly ACCEPTS those kids, with no due process, and in our case against the recommendation of a qualified professional. It is a highly profitable business that preys on desperate parents. At some point they have to be accountable, and begin to make some cursory validation of the child's history. Presently, the only true requirement is the ability to pay. Once that is established, they will promptly incarcerate your child for you. Anyone looking at an enrollment application for wilderness therapy would expect to see a history of drug abuse, theft, truancy and/or violence. And one would expect to see a long list of traditional therapy treatments that were explored prior to taking such a radical step. My step-son's application had none of that. No reasonable person would have believed he could be enrolled based on the information they were given. That should have been a red flag. It wasn't. A valid credit card authorization was included with the application; that was all that mattered. "
Ya know -- I would have to agree with you -- my son had all of those things you mention - I can't remember if you said that your application had been falsified by the mother --
In any event this is a last resort for sure and I know for myself one that I didn't take lightly -- It seems like Redcliff should have some liability here like you say...
Would it be possible for your husband to sue them civil court at least??? It would seem that based on everything you say they should have liability regardless of what the mother signed...
I know I had to fill out tons of documents and assements. Medical history and treatment history. Did you ever get to see those? Maybe the Mom made you guys out to be wack jobs and she lied on the forms
Again it is just such a different picture than the one we have of this organization that it puzzles me that you con't get anywhere legally.
How is your son doing now? Mine is doing exceptional. He calls me several times a week and loves his new school (of course it is not a behaviorial mod/level system or WWASP run place) It is a safe place where he can learn in a drug free environment.
We sold our home and are moving out of state just so that he can have a freash start when he gets home in a few months.
I wish you the best and would tell you to keep pursuing them -- they should be held as accountable for making the mistakes with your son as I hold them accountable for giving my son a new lease on life...
Good Luck.
-
If you filled out all the paperwork, you were just wasting your time. It wasn't necessary. We weren't supposed to see the application, but we received (in error) a full copy of it after he was admitted. If memory serves me (I could check in the files) it was at least 30 pages long. We watched in amazement as it all came in over the fax. It was current with handwritten intake notations on it. The employee who provided it to us was transferred shortly afterward. Yes, it asked for a tremendous amount of detailed information. Most of it was left blank. They accepted it anyway. The information that WAS provided was not sufficient to warrant any action, much less admission to wilderness therapy.
Redcliff wouldn't give us the name of the company who abducted and delivered the boy to them, so we pressed for ALL the documents they had on him. We were jerked around repeatedly. We made many phone calls to Steve Naudauld (Admissions Director) until he quit accepting/returning phone calls. He had told us (and had his attorney assure us) that my husband's Joint Legal Custody was meaningless to them, and they had no intention of sharing any of the paperwork. Among the paperwork we received in error was a form that listed my husband (amongst others) as someone authorized to receive ALL information about his son. Steve Naudauld refused to acknowledge the existence of this release, which he had in the file, and we even faxed him a copy of. Certified mail went unanswered. We provided them with a court order allowing my husband access to the records. They refused to acknowledge it.
These are the people you entrusted with your son's welfare. Read their hiring policies. You'll be amazed how little is required to be a field staff member. I'd require more of a babysitter. Yes, they are regulated, but only to the extent it is possible, when you consider how far out in the desert they are. If abuse took place, how would a child report it? Tell an employee? They've just been abandoned to the "care" of these people, they cannot use a phone, and they certainly cannot get a letter to you that hasn't been in the hands of an employee before it is mailed. I doubt they check the first batch of letters that go out. They all start out the same with "Your children are a reflection of YOU". Standard, and obviously dictated.
Their website shows "independent" studies that prove the effectiveness of their program. Look up the CVs of their contributors. One is on their board of directors, the other received over $200,000 for his research, from the OBHIC (then look at the people who run the OBHIC....plenty of Redcliff owners, etc).
The three peak climb is nothing more than an excuse to keep the child longer. They tell you how much the child is looking forward to this great challenge/experience (and how could you deprive him of such a thing after what he's been through). In our case it was canceled for some unknown reason. As for spending the night in the outdoors with your son, you had the luxury of a bathroom and shower, which he never had there. And you had food, not dried oats and rice. And you were there of your own free will. Makes it easier to enjoy the stars and the scenery.
Are you aware that the Redcliff land is a public hunting area? They don't own that land. There are people walking around out there with guns.
Their contract has a full section on their policies regarding a child being withdrawn by another parent, regardless of custodial status. It states clearly that ANY parent may withdraw the child with 24 hour's notice. For reasons we'll never understand, they had different requirements for my husband. They would not even accept a court order from our home state (which has jurisdiction over the custody), but required that we come to Utah and attempt to get a court order there. WT is big business in Utah, with a powerful lobby. We wouldn't have stood a chance. Of course, they didn't tell us it had to be a UTAH court order until we had blown a ton of time and money in the courts here. They were buying time.
I don't want to burst your bubble, and I truly hope your son is doing well. But please understand it's quite common for a kid to experience the euphoric phase after being released from WT, and he still has not been acclimated back into the real world. It's going to be a long time before you really know how he is doing.
We're not litigious people, and I doubt anything could be accomplished through the courts anyway. But there needs to be a complete overhaul of this barbaric system, and some due process afforded the children whose families put them into it. Redcliff accepts quite a few kids who are adjudicated to be there, but many others are placed merely at the whims of their parents. Redcliff SHOULD HAVE an affirmative moral obligation to confirm the status of applicants, to be sure they are not accepting children who are sent there through no fault of their own. They accepted an innocent child, nearly destroyed our lives, and kept my husband from his son for 80 days. If you'll read their contract, it basically says they have the right to accept anything you tell them as the truth. They don't have to verify anything.
Things are improving at home. I'm almost afraid to say that, as every time I do it all goes to hell. We are doing the best we can to assure him we are in this for the long run, and we're not going to give up on him. I think he's starting to trust us, and believes we are really here for him. He has a lot of catching up to do since he missed so much school. He is definitely benefiting from being in a stable loving household. When I think of what he's been through, I am angry beyond description. Nobody has the right to strip a child of all his human rights, isolate him from his family, and incarcerate him without justification. But that's exactly what Redcliff did.
-
It's a damn shame that we joint custody parents can be treated this way.
The legal process for getting them out shouldn't take so long, particularly given that the placement was in violation of our court ordered rights and our spouses are in contempt of court by making the placement without knowledge or consent.
I think programs like the kind of parent who would run ruff shod over the other parent's rights. They feel a kinship of sorts.
If I had it to do again, I would hire an attorney immediately to file for a court hearing, then retrieve my kid and sue for primary custody. Giving the other parent visitation rights only if s/he passed a psych eval.
In hindsight, I think it makes more sense to be proactive rather than wait for the matter to be settled in court. That gives the program and the temporarily insane parent time to conspire on how to present to the court that the kid is on a 'slippery slope' and in need of treatment, which the opposing parent is attempting to 'interfere' with. Perjury if necessary.
Glad your boy is home and has your full support. That is so important after time in any program.
-
Thank you Notafriendofredcliff for posting. You did not have to come here and share your private issues with us. Your posts here can be found by parents shopping for help for their children. They will gain valuable insight from them.
As a non-custodial parent, I find it frightening that there are places that will violate court ordered visitation agreements and deny access to a legally entitled parent.
Also, thanks for posting all the way through your experience. Too often, the beginning of the story is told, but then stops and we are all left hanging, wondering, 'whaterver happened to..?'
I wish you and your family the best.
This also goes to the anonymous poster who feels her son is doing much better because of the program. It is taking quite a risk to post level-headed positive stories on a board that seems intent on bashing the entire industry. If parents (and observers like me), are to gain an understanding of these issues, we need to hear from all sides. I wish you and your son the best as well.
-
On 2006-01-05 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
How is your son doing now? Mine is doing exceptional. He calls me several times a week and loves his new school (of course it is not a behaviorial mod/level system or WWASP run place) It is a safe place where he can learn in a drug free environment.
We sold our home and are moving out of state just so that he can have a freash start when he gets home in a few months.
Dear Johnny,
Now that we're done erasing your personality, we're taking the final step and erasing your history, too! Isn't that wonderful, Johnny!
Yes, mom, I'm so thankful, you're the greatest!
:roll:
-
On 2006-01-15 11:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-05 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
How is your son doing now? Mine is doing exceptional. He calls me several times a week and loves his new school (of course it is not a behaviorial mod/level system or WWASP run place) It is a safe place where he can learn in a drug free environment.
We sold our home and are moving out of state just so that he can have a freash start when he gets home in a few months.
Dear Johnny,
Now that we're done erasing your personality, we're taking the final step and erasing your history, too! Isn't that wonderful, Johnny!
Yes, mom, I'm so thankful, you're the greatest!
:roll: "
Time will tell. Right now my son is healthy and happy and clean and sober. He is looking forward to coming home to live with us in a place where he can not be a slave to his past and other peoples preconceived expectations that he is now and will always be a drug addict.
Nothing will erase his history because that is all that it is -- history.. nothing more nothing less. Parents move all of the time.. I think it is a little dramatic to say it is erasing anyones history.
Who said I erased his personaility? He is the same kid I sent in terms of his core personaility traits -- If he were a drone then I would be very worried.
He is a more considerate person than he was who understands that he is responsibile for his behavior and choices in life whatever they may be.
He can sit in a classroom and make it through the day without getting kicked out. He can get through the day without drugs. He is atriculate and developing a new passion for art and the outdoors. If that is abuse then I am guilty as charged.
At the end of the day if he wants to return to the pig pen and roll around in the crap then that is his decision. I am trying to give him the best possible shot at life...
If Redcliff did what this Mom says they did then she has an obligation to shout this from the roof tops and sue them for everything they have... to not do so is more morally corrupt then she accuses them of being.
So what if they have to sue them in Utah. If she is so concerned as to completely bash an organization and make damaging claims against them shoudn't she be as committed to making them pay for what they have done?
Any good attorney who thinks they have a case should be licking thier chops to get a piece of that money machine.
Have they filed a formal complaint with the state licensing board so other parents will be able to get that information? Have they filed a civil suit? Have they alerted the mainstream media? Did they contact their congress person?
It just does not jive with the organization I know and yes entrusted my son's care to. Quite frankly I think there is most likely more to your story and you are leaving out some un flattering facts that don't support your arguments.
But then what a terrible awful mother I am. I should have let him sit in his room and smoke his brains out.
I should have listened more to him when he was calling me every vulgar name in the book because I asked him to come home at night. I should have asked him to pretty please not deal drugs.
I should have been more understanding when he was using meth and stealing from me and the neighbors --
oh and outpaitent therapy should have worked just as well as inpatient but for that nasty little detail that he went to his meetings and appointments higher than a kite and admits that he does not remember anything that anyone was even saying...
Oh I am sooo glad you have schooled me in the error of my ways...if only I would have taken your advice and done nothing -- my son would have been in a far better place today -- you want to talk about pathetic...maybe you should all get a mirror --
-
And robbed blindly of his birthright to find out if he could unfuck himself.
This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.
--John Adams, U.S. President
-
On 2006-01-15 19:30:00, Mykidsmom wrote:
At the end of the day if he wants to return to the pig pen and roll around in the crap then that is his decision. I am trying to give him the best possible shot at life...
The perfect is always the enemy of the practical.say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.
--Kurt Vonnegut, American author
-
On 2006-01-15 19:30:00, Mykidsmom wrote:
Oh I am sooo glad you have schooled me in the error of my ways...if only I would have taken your advice and done nothing -- my son would have been in a far better place today -- you want to talk about pathetic...maybe you should all get a mirror --
My darlin peer, you have purchased a pig in a poke. You have paid dearly, in terms of money and fidelity tests. You just stay in touch and let us all know how it turns out. Your son is heartily welcome here too.
I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
-
On 2006-01-15 19:30:00, Mykidsmom wrote:
"
On 2006-01-15 11:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-05 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
How is your son doing now? Mine is doing exceptional. He calls me several times a week and loves his new school (of course it is not a behaviorial mod/level system or WWASP run place) It is a safe place where he can learn in a drug free environment.
We sold our home and are moving out of state just so that he can have a freash start when he gets home in a few months.
Dear Johnny,
Now that we're done erasing your personality, we're taking the final step and erasing your history, too! Isn't that wonderful, Johnny!
Yes, mom, I'm so thankful, you're the greatest!
:roll: "
Time will tell. Right now my son is healthy and happy and clean and sober. He is looking forward to coming home to live with us in a place where he can not be a slave to his past and other peoples preconceived expectations that he is now and will always be a drug addict.
Nothing will erase his history because that is all that it is -- history.. nothing more nothing less. Parents move all of the time.. I think it is a little dramatic to say it is erasing anyones history.
Who said I erased his personaility? He is the same kid I sent in terms of his core personaility traits -- If he were a drone then I would be very worried.
He is a more considerate person than he was who understands that he is responsibile for his behavior and choices in life whatever they may be.
He can sit in a classroom and make it through the day without getting kicked out. He can get through the day without drugs. He is atriculate and developing a new passion for art and the outdoors. If that is abuse then I am guilty as charged.
At the end of the day if he wants to return to the pig pen and roll around in the crap then that is his decision. I am trying to give him the best possible shot at life...
If Redcliff did what this Mom says they did then she has an obligation to shout this from the roof tops and sue them for everything they have... to not do so is more morally corrupt then she accuses them of being.
So what if they have to sue them in Utah. If she is so concerned as to completely bash an organization and make damaging claims against them shoudn't she be as committed to making them pay for what they have done?
Any good attorney who thinks they have a case should be licking thier chops to get a piece of that money machine.
Have they filed a formal complaint with the state licensing board so other parents will be able to get that information? Have they filed a civil suit? Have they alerted the mainstream media? Did they contact their congress person?
It just does not jive with the organization I know and yes entrusted my son's care to. Quite frankly I think there is most likely more to your story and you are leaving out some un flattering facts that don't support your arguments.
But then what a terrible awful mother I am. I should have let him sit in his room and smoke his brains out.
I should have listened more to him when he was calling me every vulgar name in the book because I asked him to come home at night. I should have asked him to pretty please not deal drugs.
I should have been more understanding when he was using meth and stealing from me and the neighbors --
oh and outpaitent therapy should have worked just as well as inpatient but for that nasty little detail that he went to his meetings and appointments higher than a kite and admits that he does not remember anything that anyone was even saying...
Oh I am sooo glad you have schooled me in the error of my ways...if only I would have taken your advice and done nothing -- my son would have been in a far better place today -- you want to talk about pathetic...maybe you should all get a mirror -- "
Wow. You're a snotty little condescending bitch, aren't you? If this is the extent of your communications skills, it surprises me not one bit that junior has no respect for you or what you say. I want you to work on yourself before shipping your kids off to the conformity factory.
-
Are you familiar w/ Jello Biafra?
http://fornits.com/sounds/Jello.m3u (http://fornits.com/sounds/Jello.m3u)God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"
-
In all fairness, the tone in her responses matches the tone of the posts she is replying to.
I can understanding the family moving. I grew up in a small town where everyone knows everyone. People get pidgeonholed at an early age and it is almost impossible to change the community's perception. I hated it.
I question the methods these programs use. I also question that her son could go from foul mouthed, violent, drug dealer, meth addict, to model citizen just by attending one. I think his exploits may be exaggerated, but I was not there.
But, if he is doing okay, then he is doing okay. I don't believe brainwashing works, not for long. So if he has changed, he has decided to change.
That is the rub for me. It's the part where they break the teenagers. I don't think it is moral, humane, or effective. It is dangerous and harmful.
-
I feel accused, and I feel the need to reply to some of the questions. I don?t care for the ugly turn this has taken.
First of all, the need for a court order from Utah was what Steve Nadauld told us would be required for them to allow the boy to be removed from their program. Any orders we could provide from our home state courts, which had jurisdiction over the custody, would not be recognized or accepted. We asked to have this put in writing, and Mr. Nadauld refused. I can prove this, should it ever be required. By the time it could have been addressed in the Utah courts, it would have been too late to help.
So far as considering a lawsuit, we discussed it. We have no obligation, moral or otherwise, to drag our family through the legal system. I do feel an obligation to let others know that this ?business? can violate your rights as a joint legal custodian, in every conceivable way. And they can put your child through their program against your wishes. We don?t want tainted money that was made off the misery of children and incompetence/desperation of parents. When he is an adult, he may pursue it legally if he chooses. But for now he?s been through enough. We are concentrating on helping him heal and do not want any distractions. He has asked to see the documentation we have, and we have provided it to him. We?ve answered all his questions about how he came to be there, and the reasons we were not able to have him released. He can see that the forms were faxed back and forth between Redcliff, his mother?s employer?s fax, and the business fax of the unrelated third party that signed as his father, in the week prior to his abduction. He lost 80 days of his life there. He is entitled to know how that was allowed to happen to him.
Yes, we contacted every official and agency that could possibly offer us any assistance. We hit roadblocks repeatedly, due to privacy concerns. We were shuffled from one agency to another. We even tried to confirm that they had at least complied with the Interstate Compact laws that cover transporting children between states for this sort of purpose. No dice, privacy issues. We received a reply from Alan Sevison, the Assistant Attorney General in Utah, stating he could only help us if we had a complaint of abuse. Unfortunately, Utah does not consider these activities to be abuse. Apparently Oregon has the same view, and that is why these two states are such a haven for the WT business. Redcliff claims that the law allows them to accept a child with the permission of a single parent or guardian. They say they are under no obligation to recognize the legal rights of any other parent. Their own contract contradicts this, but my husband could hardly force them to comply with an agreement he never entered into with them. The state licensors would do nothing to help us. They are only there to make sure Redcliff meets their requirements with regard to the health and safety of the kids. I?m not sure their task is even achievable, given the nature and logistics of Redcliff. How do you pop in unexpectedly somewhere in the midst of a 650 square mile wilderness?
I haven?t bashed Redcliff. I haven?t made damaging claims. I HAVE STATED FACT. If stating our factual experience is damaging, they should rethink their policies. I?m sure Redcliff is aware of the things I have said. I would invite them to contact me, and I would be thrilled to have the opportunity to address this with Steve Nadauld (or any of his associates), as he ended any dialogue some time ago by refusing to accept or return phone calls, and has not responded to certified mail. He made it clear my husband had NO rights whatsoever. A father?s right to see or even speak to his own son was superceded by the arrogant rights of a profitable business entity. If they feel I have stated anything that is not 100% true, I invite their rebuttal. I would love to hear them publicly justify accepting a child against the wishes of his father who had joint legal custody, with an application and contract that had more red flags than Tiananmen Square, against the recommendation of the child?s psychologist (whom they never even bothered to contact).
I have not left out ?unflattering facts?. I have hid nothing. Frankly, the implication confuses me. You strongly feel that you did everything you could to help your son. You feel you utilized Redcliff as a last resort when all other options had been exhausted. You are comfortable that after 100 days in the wilderness, your son has changed and has a new lease on life. You have made this determination after spending a few days with him, and from phone calls you receive from him at school. I seriously hope to God that you are right. I want to believe this every bit as much as you do. It hurts me to think of the kids who have lost precious time from their lives to this industry. But in actuality you can?t possibly know until he is back with your family, interacting on a daily basis.
By the way, did Redcliff come through with any of the academic credit they claim to offer? The things they sent us were absolutely ridiculous, and I?m sure the local school board is still laughing that we would even present it to them for consideration.
My goal is to educate parents about our experience. We felt like we were living in a communist country, or unable to wake up from a nightmare. We worried that he would never be able to forgive us for being unable to help him. It nearly killed us. Our circumstances were different from yours. Obviously Redcliff treated us differently than they did you and your family. They denied a father access to his son, and somehow felt justified in doing so. Any parents who are considering such a placement need to determine whether a facility has the INTEGRITY they should expect and demand from anyone who would be charged with helping their child. They have to know their rights won?t be violated, and their family won?t be exploited. Parents should share their experiences and support each other. Otherwise we will all be at the mercy of carefully scripted websites and advertisements, designed to prey on the desperation of frightened parents. And ultimately our children will pay the price if we aren?t thorough and diligent.
-
On 2006-01-16 14:11:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"In all fairness, the tone in her responses matches the tone of the posts she is replying to.
I can understanding the family moving. I grew up in a small town where everyone knows everyone. People get pidgeonholed at an early age and it is almost impossible to change the community's perception. I hated it.
I question the methods these programs use. I also question that her son could go from foul mouthed, violent, drug dealer, meth addict, to model citizen just by attending one. I think his exploits may be exaggerated, but I was not there.
But, if he is doing okay, then he is doing okay. I don't believe brainwashing works, not for long. So if he has changed, he has decided to change.
That is the rub for me. It's the part where they break the teenagers. I don't think it is moral, humane, or effective. It is dangerous and harmful."
Thanks Atomic Ant -- my tone was meant to do exactly that -- match the tone of the posts I was replying to as well as the communication skills of those to whom I was responding. Funny how you all react to being attacked in the same way as you attack others....very interesting!
It seems that anyone with any other point of view than the one that is popular here is attacked.
That is why other reasonable people give up and move on.. which is really too bad because it ends up being very one sided and not very interesting or informative.
From many of the quotes and signatures that posters use I can see that this site is not exactly mainstream -- too bad because lack of reasonable discussion discredits your cause.
Thanks for the invitation to let you know how it goes but I'm sure that if I had anything positive to say then you would find some way to attack that as well so it really isn't worth the trouble. :wave:
-
Excuse me....
-
Excuse me ....
-
You're standing on my neck. Step off, please. Thank you.
-
i went through RCA and yea sure there is some bullshit that goes on there but atleast the staff arent like my experiences with juvies or state run institutions where staff really dont care; i mean shit, they dont fucking throw you into walls for moving in line or looking at them "smart". Kids at the Youth Center used to get broken noses and scars up and down their faces while being 'restrained' for trivial things. Though i do admit Redcliff was a hellofalot more extreme than any other bootcamp or instituion ive been to in that there is real physical and mental strains that you wont find else where (i went 2 1/2 months eating rice and lentils with no spices at all because i couldnt get two sticks to produce a flame-- and without fire you cant get past phase 1, thus wont graduate, thus stuck in a depression purgatory like state) and the fact that you are in the middle of nowhere, you dig holes with sticks, wipe your ass with bark, and go out and strip when its 0 degrees out and wash yourself (always wash your body first, your hair will freeze), RCA and privately owned 'behavioral health' institutions still are just nicer holding cells for the rich and middleclass youth of america. Fuck eating ramen noodles and canned potatoes for months and months after i graduated just to make ends meet from the 30,000 dollar deficit my mom had isnt a good trade off for a couple of months where i was out of trouble (6 months after grad camp, im got arrested and 2 years later am still on intensive probation for my misdeeds--so no, $30,000 isnt worth a life time but merely a few fuckign months and some chest hair)
-----David "White Falcon"
-
It took my son 4 weeks to get fire but to this day it is one of his proudest accomplishments... maybe that is sad to say but it is true.
It was the first thing he wanted to show us when we got there.
But then maybe he is a different kind of kid because he wants to go back as staff as soon as he turns 19. He loved it...
He did say that it was the most extreme of the wilderness programs in that it was the most physically demanding -- but that is something that he is proud of cause he made it!
He hiked over 400 miles in the 104 days he was there and says he misses it...
Time will tell -- I stopped even posting to this site because if you have a different take on anything you get beat up pretty bad.
I'm interested in if you ever became really engaged in the program -- if you did what caused you to relapse? Also if you don't mind -- what could your parents have done that would have helped you when you were in height of your issues...
I value your insight and experience.
Thanks
-
I went through a similiar period as with your son, and i was mighty proud of what i did accomplish. For what i was sent there for, it did help me considerably, i no longer felt like the world owed me something and was nolonger just a whiney little kid that mouthed off to every single person that ever tried to help me. I realized that i was no better than anyone else--no smarter no stronger no more moral-- and when i graduated i was filled with "little wisdoms". I will always respect RCA, and like your son i was struck with some nostalgia when i left --its alot simpler and the emotions are genuine and not watered down with bullshit.
When i first got out i stayed clean, respected my mother, and got As in school. But the thing is i had alot of difficulty with explaining what i had gone through with my peers (i had failed the 8th grade the previous year so i was still in middle school--this compounded with my new found maturity doubly increased any difficult i had adjusting). I was the 'bad' kid even if i tried to reform myself. I eventually gave in to these temptations and found myself chillin with punk/skinhead crews which i guess got me into this mentality that got me into trouble. But atleast im not like i was.
My mom when i got out was paranoid, like extremely paranoid--for example if there was dry wall dust on my desk shed think i was doing coke (when all i did up to that point was smoke pot and drink), and if i got a soda can shed think i was making a pipe out of it just shit like that all the time. I wasnt alowed out after school, and she wouldnt let me listen to my music claiming that it would 'brainwash' me. This all pissed me off, as in NA that i had to go to the biggest junkies in the world had more freedom than i did. I guess my advice would to trust your son enough so that he atleast feels human, and not just imprisoned in his own damn house. With little freedoms like being able to go out with friends, he wont feel too obliged to break rules in order to have any fun. Plus my mom drinks, so yea less you do i dont think you have much to worry about.
I was engaged in my treatment, but it only lasted while i was in treatment. After a while you lose the emotional etatchment for RCA and it just becomes another memory, just another scar. I do think id like to revist sometime though.
best of luck with your kid
-cheers n beers-
-
On 2006-02-16 16:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm interested in if you ever became really engaged in the program -- if you did what caused you to relapse? Also if you don't mind -- what could your parents have done that would have helped you when you were in height of your issues...
Yeah, I was engaged in the program alright :roll: .....I was so brainwashed for awhile but I had no choice. It was either be brainwashed or face severe punishment... And... frequently, Post Traumatic Stess Disorder from being subjected to a program can cause relapse. That happened to me after the brainwashing started to wear off. You think I'm kidding dont you??? and....Real counseling/therapy would have been extremely beneficial for me....I didnt need to be thrown in a private prison.
-
On 2006-02-16 20:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I went through a similiar period as with your son, and i was mighty proud of what i did accomplish. For what i was sent there for, it did help me considerably, i no longer felt like the world owed me something and was nolonger just a whiney little kid that mouthed off to every single person that ever tried to help me. I realized that i was no better than anyone else--no smarter no stronger no more moral-- and when i graduated i was filled with "little wisdoms". I will always respect RCA, and like your son i was struck with some nostalgia when i left --its alot simpler and the emotions are genuine and not watered down with bullshit.
When i first got out i stayed clean, respected my mother, and got As in school. But the thing is i had alot of difficulty with explaining what i had gone through with my peers (i had failed the 8th grade the previous year so i was still in middle school--this compounded with my new found maturity doubly increased any difficult i had adjusting). I was the 'bad' kid even if i tried to reform myself. I eventually gave in to these temptations and found myself chillin with punk/skinhead crews which i guess got me into this mentality that got me into trouble. But atleast im not like i was.
My mom when i got out was paranoid, like extremely paranoid--for example if there was dry wall dust on my desk shed think i was doing coke (when all i did up to that point was smoke pot and drink), and if i got a soda can shed think i was making a pipe out of it just shit like that all the time. I wasnt alowed out after school, and she wouldnt let me listen to my music claiming that it would 'brainwash' me. This all pissed me off, as in NA that i had to go to the biggest junkies in the world had more freedom than i did. I guess my advice would to trust your son enough so that he atleast feels human, and not just imprisoned in his own damn house. With little freedoms like being able to go out with friends, he wont feel too obliged to break rules in order to have any fun. Plus my mom drinks, so yea less you do i dont think you have much to worry about.
I was engaged in my treatment, but it only lasted while i was in treatment. After a while you lose the emotional etatchment for RCA and it just becomes another memory, just another scar. I do think id like to revist sometime though.
best of luck with your kid
-cheers n beers-"
Thanks for the advice... Sorry I was so slow to reply I don't really look at this board too much anymore as I explained before but it was great to see someone own their stuff and give good advice to a Mom who will soon be in the same position with her Son.
I just came home from spending the weekend with him at his boarding school. He really likes it there too. Very nice place... the kids seem to enjoy themselves, the food is great and my Son tells us over and over again how glad he is that we sent him someplace that is not a lock down and is teaching him how to express his emotions and help others
I wish I could have done that for him but I couldn't -- I am learning too and your advice is well taken..
Thanks
-
White Falcon-(David)
E-mail me man, [email protected] I think you were in my group
-
Hi- My names Maggie and i went to RedCliff Ascent about 4 and a half years ago... and i wanted to say first of all no kid will be at RedCliff ascent less than like 60 days- yes it can be graduated in like 30 days but NOBODY does that- infact when i was there i was in a group with a girl who ended up being there 217 days!!!!
Also, i'd like to say that before i went to RedCliff i had only smoked weed for about the 3 months before i was sent away- and i made straight A's... nobody thought i should have been at this program- i was the 'goody goody'... which was true- but after RedCliff i went to boarding school in Utah for about 6 months after my RedCliff experience- and my comment to all this is after i came back from my programs i skipped school all the time and ended up dropping out... and because i learned so much about drugs in the programs from the other kids i came back and i just quit smoking crack and doing cocaine about 2 months ago... i could almost say i dont think i would have EVER done those drugs if i hadnt been taught about them from kids at RedCliff and my boarding school Academy at Cedar Mountain... by the way my drug habbits and skipping school started less than a couple months after i was back and i'm just now becoming sober
oh and when i was at RedCliff- from what i recall if u tried to run from the program of course u were going to get your pants and shoes taken away... i saw a report where the RedCliff staff acted like that was a bad decision made on the councelers at the time... i dont think so- that's what they were supposed to do
i hated every second of the program and afterward not only did i feel like i didnt learn anything at all but i felt betrayed by my parents more than anything and to this day i dont think i will forgive them to sending my this program especially because i WAS a goody goody straight A student before i went who liked to smoke weed on the weekends- and i turned out as a high school dropout who smokes crack...
so if u think sending ur kid to this program will solve all ur problems- think again! if u have any questions about my experience in the program or anything email me at
http://[email protected]