1
Fornits
Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
An open discussion about the troubled parent industry
Show Posts
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
2
Open Free for All / Re: Shocking I know, but Dr. Drew is a real asshole.
« on: January 23, 2011, 11:52:03 PM »
this is a common mentality among some 12 steppers (In fairness not all) He says you can never recover from heroin use but I have also heard that about meth. it is simply not true. It does take some work to get past an addictive behavior and in my case it did require getting away for a while for medically supervised rehab because i did reel a strong physical attachment to the stuff that was hard to get past initially. But to tell people this, particularly when they are really struggling is really irresponsible. It is a very disempowering and nihilistic out look and it alarms me that this guy is using his medical credentials to spout such nonsense. There is also an arrogance to it that infuriates me. i know a woman who in addition to going to rehab went to church every day. It seemed to really help her. But for very good reason you dont hear doctors saying that uless you go to church all the time you can never recover. Yet this guy can assume without evidence that because someone has not recovered his way, they are a junkie who will die.
3
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Bullying suicide rates on the rise
« on: October 05, 2010, 07:13:32 PM »Quote from: "Whooter"
One more generation and gay will not even be an issue. They are gaining acceptance (and equal footing) by leaps and bounds, even in the military. For some reason sexual orientation doesn't seem to bother people as much as color or religious affiliation differences.
...
On the whole I would agree with that. However in some communities, particularly religiously conservative ones, this is definitely not the case. For young people it is often difficult to remember that there is a much wider world than the one in front of you. And for many that world is pretty shit. It is also difficult for some gay people who are religious to deal with the continuous personal rejection because of feelings that do not go away.
4
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Bullying suicide rates on the rise
« on: October 04, 2010, 05:39:27 PM »
There has always been a higher rate of bullying amongst queer kids and a higher suicide rate. I am surprised that this is only an issue now. I once met an ex mormon guy when I was in NYC who had gone to one of those de gayification camps for like 6 months poor guy. He said that there were no kids there as you had to be an adult technically making the choice yourself. But by the same token he said most guys were still pretty young and really sincere in their religious faith mostly evangelical christian or mormon with the occasional token catholic. Mostly they did not want to dissapoint their families. He was 18 when he went. Some of the shit he described was pretty bizarre including being forced to rub up against each other and the older guy who ran it in pretty erotic fashion. A lot of it sounded like being bullied. There was to be no music or popular culture and they were banned from wearing a long list of clothes. YThere was also heavy restriction on communication with the outside world.
When I got back here I discovered a couple of the evangelical churches here have "ex gay" ministries but they are a little more low key. Basically they meet up once or twice a week like a support group. Or some do a weekend retreat. Mainly just four or five lonely guys eating stale biscuits and being told by a kind but crazy middle aged lady who is usually called glenda or colleen to play more footy and listen to less techno. Apparently calling each other mate or dude also helps :eek: Id say it is equally useless and probably not any good for the self esteem of these guys but a little less humiliating and crushing. It is a strange world
When I got back here I discovered a couple of the evangelical churches here have "ex gay" ministries but they are a little more low key. Basically they meet up once or twice a week like a support group. Or some do a weekend retreat. Mainly just four or five lonely guys eating stale biscuits and being told by a kind but crazy middle aged lady who is usually called glenda or colleen to play more footy and listen to less techno. Apparently calling each other mate or dude also helps :eek: Id say it is equally useless and probably not any good for the self esteem of these guys but a little less humiliating and crushing. It is a strange world
5
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Parents is it neglect, overwhelmed or tricked.
« on: September 30, 2010, 08:24:17 PM »Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
What amazes me is that the pro-program people here automatically assume that there was a legitimate reason for kids to be shipped off. Most of the kids in Straight were just normal teens and didn't need that kind of harsh 'treatment' or any treatment at all (I can think of only 2 or 3 that had real problems). As I've said before, I was the lightweight of my group and the only one sent to Straight. Straight told my parents that not only me, but all my friends would be DIJ and it was so contradictory that the "worse" ones who didn't go ended up doing just fine....they grew out of their 'bad' behavior. I, OTOH, ended up having more problems after getting out than I did before going in. Again, as I've said before, my father was an extremely controlling person and when my parents got divorced he couldn't handle the fact that he couldn't dictate what I did, so he found a place where they could.I am sure the scare factor comes in a lot. I read jesus Land and it seems that the girl who was sent away to that horrible religious boot camp and her brother just had trouble communicating with their excessively strict and unreasonably judgmental religious parents. If nothing else it showed the dark side of any fundamentalist faith. It certainly sounds Anne like this was a similar case for you as well (maybe minus the religious aspect) and no doubt for many of the kids you were in with and I am sorry to hear that. But by the same token when I watched the congressional hearings most of the parents that spoke there really did sound like they just were not sure what to do and that they were sold something far from the reality. it also did not seem that they were unsophisticated hicks. I have to say I honestly don't know what I would do if I had a kid who was suicidal or who I felt was out of my control. Mental illness really can be such a complex and difficult thing for a family to handle, Because I dont have kids I feel like i cant sit in judgement of those who are struggling with theirs. But it is also immoral to just lock people up. I think it is like anything that happens gradually. It can seem absurd from the outside looking in but then to someone who feels like they are running out of options what was once abhorrent becomes a little more normal as a concept and then in the blink of an eye more people are saying it is OK and you just go along. Afterall this is how nazi germany more or less happened
Nobody gets out of adolescence unscathed and programs use that to scare parents into admitting their kids.
6
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Can people be forced to change?
« on: September 30, 2010, 06:24:08 PM »
there is something creepy about trying to change the essence of who someone is. A lot of places appear to talk about giving parents their old child back like they are returning them to pre adolescence. To me that is just wierd. Like deliberately giving your kid a head injury so they will always have a mental age of 12. legitimate rehab does not do this. i am the same person who made the choice to take drugs but i am now making better choices. None of these things were forced upon me. I have the same personality. I am not the spiritual type but one of the few ideas i think a religious upbringing got correct was the idea that we are all unique. So anne i can see what you are saying, maybe it is not even possible but i guess from my pov it doesnt matter whether you can do it it matters more whether it is OK to even try.
Whooter one of the schools you recommend has a history of treating kids pretty awfully. As late as 2003 it was calling girls whores, monitoring phone calls and dismissing suicide attempts as attention getting.
Whooter one of the schools you recommend has a history of treating kids pretty awfully. As late as 2003 it was calling girls whores, monitoring phone calls and dismissing suicide attempts as attention getting.
7
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Can people be forced to change?
« on: September 30, 2010, 12:17:53 AM »
maybe it is a question of should not can. Im sure that you can force someone to change in some circumstances. Maximillion claims this to be so. But I dont think this is morally right any more than a dictatorship is morally right. Even when a kid is under 18 and the parent still has the right to enforce legitimate rules, they do not have the right to physically or emotionally abuse or imprison their children.
8
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Can people be forced to change?
« on: September 29, 2010, 12:48:45 AM »
I had a pretty rocky relationship with my parents as a teenager. Mistakes were made on both ends. I was far from perfect but I also felt a lot of pressure to be a son that I couldn't be. Once I turned 18 things changed. I can remember my dad saying that he might not approve of my choices but that I was a man and as a result he would butt out from now on. This really was a big turning point and in all honestly made me start behaving more like a man in a lot of ways. But nobody can control the behavior of someone else and any decisions I have made in life either good or bad have been my own.
In the case of a fully grown adult who is behaving badly for whatever reason boundaries can be put in place and they can sometimes get results. A real turning point for me was when a sibling said that she could not trust me to babysit her kids because she did not know if I would be high or not. This was devastating and really got me thinking about how much i had let things slide. I have met some people whose loved ones took this idea to extremes and let them hit "rock bottom" by cutting off all contact. Most went through a period of being really fucked up for a while. Maybe their choices got them there but as a guy who is hardly a saint myself I still felt bad for them and grateful that my loved ones kept the door open.
I hear people saying that kids who did badly in therapeutic schools did so because they did not accept the help offered to them. maybe it is true and maybe it is not but it misses the point to me. Firstly if the aim is to get somebody to change and this aim is not met then it has failed. Secondly no one solution is the right fit for everyone. If a kid cant clearly articulate why this is the case in their case without somebody claiming they are manipulating or lying then of course they are destined to fail. Thirdly too much of anything cant be healthy. Even adults who see a therapist dont go to them every single day. Being in an environment that consists of continuous therapy unless you are severely mentally ill or detoxing from some heavy drugs is enough to make anyone crazy. Even a live in rehab program usually only lasts for up to six months tops. 18 months away from the real world possibly does force some level of change but i doubt it is for the better!!!!
In the case of a fully grown adult who is behaving badly for whatever reason boundaries can be put in place and they can sometimes get results. A real turning point for me was when a sibling said that she could not trust me to babysit her kids because she did not know if I would be high or not. This was devastating and really got me thinking about how much i had let things slide. I have met some people whose loved ones took this idea to extremes and let them hit "rock bottom" by cutting off all contact. Most went through a period of being really fucked up for a while. Maybe their choices got them there but as a guy who is hardly a saint myself I still felt bad for them and grateful that my loved ones kept the door open.
I hear people saying that kids who did badly in therapeutic schools did so because they did not accept the help offered to them. maybe it is true and maybe it is not but it misses the point to me. Firstly if the aim is to get somebody to change and this aim is not met then it has failed. Secondly no one solution is the right fit for everyone. If a kid cant clearly articulate why this is the case in their case without somebody claiming they are manipulating or lying then of course they are destined to fail. Thirdly too much of anything cant be healthy. Even adults who see a therapist dont go to them every single day. Being in an environment that consists of continuous therapy unless you are severely mentally ill or detoxing from some heavy drugs is enough to make anyone crazy. Even a live in rehab program usually only lasts for up to six months tops. 18 months away from the real world possibly does force some level of change but i doubt it is for the better!!!!
9
Addiction Treatment Philosophy / Re: Using medication to stay sober
« on: September 25, 2010, 08:32:44 PM »
I think it depends on the person. it is one of those really individual things. I didnt want to go the drug route because it did feel like replacing one drug with another. But I took antidepressants for a little bit as i was at the time clinically depressed. As this lifted i cut down and am now totally chemically free :seg: (unless coffee and the occasional drink count)
Many people with addiction problems have a number of issues to deal with some of which are mental health related so for them i can see how psych drugs are a good idea. I have heard of this pill but my understanding is that it is for pretty hardcore alcoholics. I met a bloke in rehab that it worked wonders for and another lady from AA who said it was hellish. I have also heard very mixed reviews about methodone treatment for heroin users. I met another person who went through a rehab that was pretty down on chemicals and only used vitamins and they say this helped. I guess either way i wouldn't try any chemical solution without medical advice.
Many people with addiction problems have a number of issues to deal with some of which are mental health related so for them i can see how psych drugs are a good idea. I have heard of this pill but my understanding is that it is for pretty hardcore alcoholics. I met a bloke in rehab that it worked wonders for and another lady from AA who said it was hellish. I have also heard very mixed reviews about methodone treatment for heroin users. I met another person who went through a rehab that was pretty down on chemicals and only used vitamins and they say this helped. I guess either way i wouldn't try any chemical solution without medical advice.
10
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Boarding school is a form of child abuse (Independent)
« on: September 25, 2010, 07:22:02 PM »
I find this view point a little bit bizarre. I bump into guys that i went to school with frequently. Some are former bullies who admit that they were dicks, others are the guys like me who were sadly at the bottom of the heap. Regardless of how they feel about school, i have never heard any say that i didnt like it because of some personal deficiency. Rather it is just accepted that my experience was what it was for whatever reason. Yet it seems anyone who criticises one of these therapeutic schools is seen as being deficient in some way. Even if the argument that it was due to a personal deficiency worked, surely if you are paying about 40k? to force your kid to get better the fact that they dont either because they are doing something wrong or the school is should ring alarm bells. Afterall you have mentioned before that few kids go willingly. So that means that the therapy is being forced on them. So it is less about not doing the work and more about not submitting to something being forced upon them. This is not so very different to telling somebody that is being raped that if they dont fight back you wont need to get violent. Nobody can be forced to work on themself. Not even a kid. They need to want to do it. This is why any drug rehab 12 step based or not only has a chance if the person receiving the treatment has made the decision to participate.
11
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Boarding school is a form of child abuse (Independent)
« on: September 25, 2010, 06:45:50 PM »
I read that and have to say it might be a bit squewed. Of course being at boarding school from the age of 5 is probably a bad idea. I also did not do well as a boarder in highschool but then i hated my time as a day boy at the same school. My older brothers both did OK there and one was the captain of his house. But it was more a case of the school itself being the wrong fit for me. Ive met people for which their local public was also hell. Some kids just don't do highschool. I think i was that guy.
But there is a difference between not liking the culture at a school or even going through the relative trauma of being bullied a lot at school and the kind of environment that i hear people describe here where there are super strict levels and phone call are rationed and maybe monitored and there are no summer and christmas vacations. This seems more to me like jail than school. Boarding school for all its flaws is not jail.You can go home. You can complain. You do have rights and you dont have to participate in group therapy that is humiliating. So i think comparing this to normal boarding school can minimize the problems this kind of school causes.
But there is a difference between not liking the culture at a school or even going through the relative trauma of being bullied a lot at school and the kind of environment that i hear people describe here where there are super strict levels and phone call are rationed and maybe monitored and there are no summer and christmas vacations. This seems more to me like jail than school. Boarding school for all its flaws is not jail.You can go home. You can complain. You do have rights and you dont have to participate in group therapy that is humiliating. So i think comparing this to normal boarding school can minimize the problems this kind of school causes.
12
Teen Challenge / i wonder if different places can have different philosophys
« on: September 08, 2010, 08:52:57 PM »
I have been reading some pretty disturbing things about teen challenge not just here but on other website. I know it exists here (In australia) and know one of 2 people who did it here and who describe something nothing like its american counterpart. It is obviously pretty capital C christian so obviously not for anyone who is not a full bible protestant christian and I have no idea of how professional the staff are so I dont want to sound like it's cheer leader. But the teens who are going there dont live in at least in my home state (or go to some bizarre foster home) and the day is much less structured. I think there is a voluntary live in program for adults and i dont know much about it. if anything they seem to be more about evangelizing which is annoying for the general public but not necessarily harmful to those doing it. Are there any people who have been through one of Teen Challenge's international programs(not in north america)? Was it similar to what has been described here or more in line with my understanding of it
13
Open Free for All / Re: What if AA is mainstream and Fornits is the cult?
« on: September 04, 2010, 07:41:07 PM »
There is no doubt that AA is mainstream. Most ordinary people think of it as the place to refer loved ones with addictions. There are also people for who this forum is like a self imposed cult in that they seem to spend all of their leisure time here thus precluding the time for outside interests or friends.
But because something is mainstream or supported by the establishment does not mean that it cant get cult like. Some chapters of AA are like this. People have told me that their individual branch has not been like this at all and I am happy with taking their word for it. But that does not mean i want to go.
I also dispute the idea that you have a disease Maximillian but i am not saying this just to be mean to you. i don't doubt that it can sometimes be a real struggle to stay away from whatever your vices are, but talk to any formerly overweight person or reformed smoker and you will find that the struggle is not dissimilar whether it is cancer sticks or chocolate. The difference is that with some stronger drugs the price of taking them is maybe higher. In fact I would argue that the disease idea can make things harder. If you tell yourself that you have a lifelong illness what you are really saying is that you cant truly kick a habit, or that you need to replace it with another (like 12 steps).
This is not to say that it is easy. Or to say that the reasons why anybody starts to abuse drugs in the first place are simple. Or that initially anyone with a bad drug habit should not seek some kind of medical advice and assistance. But isnt the whole point of 12 steps that it is self help based and non professional? If this is the case how can it logically be argued that on one hand addiction is a disease but on the other hand only a self help group can cure it. Nobody with cancer would *just* go to a support group. They would also and primarily see an oncologist and get a medical solution.
I would also not say that we are completely responsible for the things that happen to us. But isn't that also the mentality that most personal growth seminars adopted by emotional growth schools espouse? That everybody is 100 percent responsible for all of their actions.
Alternatively you can look at it from the perspective of a bad habit that you used to indulge in. But now you are no longer the guy who does that. it is not a disease it is a life choice that you make. In the same way that you are not a criminal so make the choice not to steal. Or you are not an asshole so you make the choice to treat people with respect.
But because something is mainstream or supported by the establishment does not mean that it cant get cult like. Some chapters of AA are like this. People have told me that their individual branch has not been like this at all and I am happy with taking their word for it. But that does not mean i want to go.
I also dispute the idea that you have a disease Maximillian but i am not saying this just to be mean to you. i don't doubt that it can sometimes be a real struggle to stay away from whatever your vices are, but talk to any formerly overweight person or reformed smoker and you will find that the struggle is not dissimilar whether it is cancer sticks or chocolate. The difference is that with some stronger drugs the price of taking them is maybe higher. In fact I would argue that the disease idea can make things harder. If you tell yourself that you have a lifelong illness what you are really saying is that you cant truly kick a habit, or that you need to replace it with another (like 12 steps).
This is not to say that it is easy. Or to say that the reasons why anybody starts to abuse drugs in the first place are simple. Or that initially anyone with a bad drug habit should not seek some kind of medical advice and assistance. But isnt the whole point of 12 steps that it is self help based and non professional? If this is the case how can it logically be argued that on one hand addiction is a disease but on the other hand only a self help group can cure it. Nobody with cancer would *just* go to a support group. They would also and primarily see an oncologist and get a medical solution.
I would also not say that we are completely responsible for the things that happen to us. But isn't that also the mentality that most personal growth seminars adopted by emotional growth schools espouse? That everybody is 100 percent responsible for all of their actions.
Alternatively you can look at it from the perspective of a bad habit that you used to indulge in. But now you are no longer the guy who does that. it is not a disease it is a life choice that you make. In the same way that you are not a criminal so make the choice not to steal. Or you are not an asshole so you make the choice to treat people with respect.
14
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« on: September 04, 2010, 09:34:06 AM »
danny you display the kind of mentality I am talking about. I assume you are referring to my first post that indicated my early doubts from that you automatically assumed I walked away even though the same post indicates that I stuck around while these doubts grew and tried a second 12 step group for gay people only. I then left. Why do you care so much that some people from the internet may or may not like the 12 steps and give their opinion on it. I just dont get why this means so much to you.
Psy guys like Danny illustrate my point. This inability to deal with any criticism of "The faith" without dismissing and attacking someone is pretty cult like behavior wouldnt you say. Ive literally met scientologists who are more mellow.
Psy guys like Danny illustrate my point. This inability to deal with any criticism of "The faith" without dismissing and attacking someone is pretty cult like behavior wouldnt you say. Ive literally met scientologists who are more mellow.
15
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« on: September 04, 2010, 03:18:17 AM »
Psy I get where you are coming from with this. I admit I am not any cult expert although i did read the margaret singer book. But I would say that some AA groups in my experience are less like a cult than others for sure. I dont know if you have had addiction issues yourself, but where AA is pretty dogmatic is that anyone for whom their ideas don't work they do dismiss as morally inferior. Ive talked to Jesuit priests and salvation army guys who obviously feel pretty strongly about what they believe in and they have been able to disagree with me and not suggest that i feel the way i do because i am in some way morally inferior. This has even been after I have challenged them on pretty contentious issues like religious homophobia and mysogony. I think this is because they are probably pretty secure in what they beleive and don't need to look down on people who feel differently.
But an awful lot of AA people take this idea one step further and say if you walk away from what they believe in or question their dogma then you are pretty much doomed to the life of a hopeless junkie. Or they get irrationally angry and start demanding that you "Get honest" whih is a loaded language way of accusing you of being a liar and a fake. Moreover some AA groups advocate a really kind of obnoxious about any friends that indulge in anything. For instance most of my friends know that I am not a nightclub kind of guy any more so I am more likely to meet them for a quiet beer or a coffee. If they want to go party afterward I am not going to try and stop them or make assumptions about whether they are addicts. Ive see 12 steppers argue that I should cut myself off from such people. The same people also once very strongly advised that when I was attending a family birthday celebration I demand that the whole family refrain from drinking. If they didnt it was suggested that they were not supportive and should essentially be shunned. So from where I sit a group that can encourage you to cut off non believers as well as becoming angry at questioners and deliberately manipulating language starts to look less like a self help group and more like a cult. Even if it is a milder form of cult.
I guess it is not unlike the way some of the schools for badly behaving kids are more humane than others in terms of basic standards but this does not change the fact in my opinion that they seem to run like private jails. You can either go to a nice jail or a horrible one. if you are not allowed to leave or see the outside world it is still a jail.
But an awful lot of AA people take this idea one step further and say if you walk away from what they believe in or question their dogma then you are pretty much doomed to the life of a hopeless junkie. Or they get irrationally angry and start demanding that you "Get honest" whih is a loaded language way of accusing you of being a liar and a fake. Moreover some AA groups advocate a really kind of obnoxious about any friends that indulge in anything. For instance most of my friends know that I am not a nightclub kind of guy any more so I am more likely to meet them for a quiet beer or a coffee. If they want to go party afterward I am not going to try and stop them or make assumptions about whether they are addicts. Ive see 12 steppers argue that I should cut myself off from such people. The same people also once very strongly advised that when I was attending a family birthday celebration I demand that the whole family refrain from drinking. If they didnt it was suggested that they were not supportive and should essentially be shunned. So from where I sit a group that can encourage you to cut off non believers as well as becoming angry at questioners and deliberately manipulating language starts to look less like a self help group and more like a cult. Even if it is a milder form of cult.
I guess it is not unlike the way some of the schools for badly behaving kids are more humane than others in terms of basic standards but this does not change the fact in my opinion that they seem to run like private jails. You can either go to a nice jail or a horrible one. if you are not allowed to leave or see the outside world it is still a jail.