Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Carey on December 16, 2003, 10:40:00 AM
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Here is my take Anon:
I have never told a lie, not since this whole thing started. I have not lied about the $12,500.00. They have not bought my silence. I can still sue them and everyone else if I so choose. All I have ever done is tell about my experience and share it with others. That is all I will ever continue to do. Those associated with trekkers are the ones who have lost all creditability.
My family was not only exploited by Dundee but it was exploited by Amberly and Sue Scheff and her Trekkers associates and Steve Bozak.
Don't sit in judgement until you know everything that has occured.
I don't think any "program" that incarcerates kids without due process of law should exist. Amberly, Trekkers and many others are only trying to move the goods from one program to the next. I don't agree with that and I will not be a part of that.
You can fault me for taking money from the WWASP attorneys if that is what you choose, but mind you, they were not the ones who exploited me and my family. My family was expolited by Dundee, Amberly, Bozak and PURE, Inc. (Sue Scheff).
Amberly is responsible for what happened at Dundee the entire time my boys were there. She knew I wanted them out. She did not care. She did not care or take an interest in any of this until I put here name out on public forums posting her name and stating that she was invovled in the assault and rape cover up. She would never have come forward had I not been publically blasting her. Then she comes forward and says "yeah they charge too much, they don't hire qualified people, etc. etc." I ask her to make a statement for the judge in my court case. She says no. But then she gives a statement, that mind you changed for the 3rd time, to Sue Scheff, PURE Inc. who is no different than WWASP. Why would Amberly be willing to help another corporation, who does the same thing WWASP does but not be willing to help 2 kids who were under her care and who were terrified of going back.
Is Amberly telling the truth, I don't think so. Not any more. She has changed the details significantly since she hooked up with PURE. But you know what, if it turns out that Amberly is telling the truth...then I am going to sue her personally for the care of my kids while in the program and the fear they lived in after leaving the program.
When you have all of the facts, then judge me, but as of right now, you don't.
Carey
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Carey:
Let's keep this about judging what you did, not necessarily you as a whole.
I know you needed the cash, and that you were taken advantage of (by Sue), and this mess has been emotional. I also know a person can do something morally wrong and that the person should not be written off forever, just because of that one wrong thing, but here, in this case, it was a Whopper, and part of the price for taking the WWASP money is the critics that will naturally follow.
I'm sure you had reasons for doing this horrible thing, but it was still horrible. The money is very dirty and was tajen from people in awful pain and confusion (also stupidity, but that's another conversation) when they paid it to WWASP.
I understand your thinking had to be a little more pragmatic and that you wanted to save your house, have a nice Christmas, etc., but where does it stop.
While Frod is anything but gentle, my rabblerousing here, the last couple of days was to raise awareness to the fact that this board can suck. It's moderator needs to help get everything out on the table without all of the brutlity which seems to go hand-in-hand with saying anything on this board.
I wouldn't presume to give you advice, but I would leave out of your argument to the people angry you took the money, that you had no other choice. It's not a good argument and it's not true.
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I wouldn't presume to give you advice, but I would leave out of your argument to the people angry you took the money, that you had no other choice.
I never said I had no other choice. I had a couple of choices. I could have given it to them freely, had I so chose. I could have let them serve me with a subpoena.
The money is not tainted...the industry as a whole is. Afterall, look at Amberly who was willing to give her sworn statement to to protect Sue and her business...not kids...she chose to protect someone more like herself, someone who profits off of kids.
Let's keep this about judging what you did, not necessarily you as a whole.
You can not separate the two. I did what I did based on what happened "as a whole." I saw people, not innocent people but guilty people, pointing the finger at another group all the while engaging in the same behavior.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-12-16 08:16 ]
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Surely one of these is applicable here:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/)
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On 2003-12-16 08:12:00, Carey wrote:
"I wouldn't presume to give you advice, but I would leave out of your argument to the people angry you took the money, that you had no other choice.
I never said I had no other choice. I had a couple of choices. I could have given it to them freely, had I so chose. I could have let them serve me with a subpoena.
The money is not tainted...the industry as a whole is. Afterall, look at Amberly who was willing to give her sworn statement to to protect Sue and her business...not kids...she chose to protect someone more like herself, someone who profits off of kids.
"
Two wrongs make a right Carey? C'mon, I know you don't mean that. Of course, anyone else who is doing this is wrong too. It's Ok that you're at peace with this, but do you for one second expect anyone, except Ginger who has been somewhat sympathetic, to say what you did helps anyone but you and WWASP?
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I do have to ask...what WAS the reason for taking the money. I'm seriously asking to try and understand this.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.
-- Anonymous
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I don't think what I did was wrong. Not at all. I think what I did was right...totally right. I think everyone has a right to know what has happened exactly as it happened. I think somewhere in the middle lies the truth and I think the only way to get at the truth is to tell all one knows.
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what WAS the reason for taking the money. I'm seriously asking to try and understand this
That is a very good question, cayohueso. You will get different stories as to why. Warning: This shit gets MURKY.
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On 2003-12-16 08:22:00, Carey wrote:
"I don't think what I did was wrong. Not at all. I think what I did was right...totally right. I think everyone has a right to know what has happened exactly as it happened. I think somewhere in the middle lies the truth and I think the only way to get at the truth is to tell all one knows. "
What was the reason for WWASP attys asking for the info and what was your reason for giving it AND the reason for the $$ acceptance? I'm NOT trying to start or prolong anything...I am sincerely trying to understand.The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
--H.L. Mencken
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Carey,
You say you do not lie? That is a lie.
You were not exploited by the trekkers.
You particiapted by choice. We did not exploit you.
Your anger should be toward your ex. He enrolled the twinsinto a WWASP facility..
Your anger is misdirected.
How convienient.
Be accountable for YOUR choice of actions. Quit trying to BLAME others for your problems. It does'nt fly with those who know the truth.
What you chose to do with our emails was inexcuseable.
There may be people who sap up and feel that you had no other choice. We know differently.
Get over the the blame game.It's a bad joke. Hypocrisy smells bad.
Blame Blame blame! Give me a break.
Carey, you are an official WWASPIE forever and always.
I hope you feel proud of yourself.
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Carey, you took money from people who torture children and take advantage of parents who see themselves as desperate. Selling your emails to WWASP gave WWASP a potential cause of action against all of the people that spoke in an adverse way about WWASP, when they thought they were in a safe harbour. How could you possibly think any of that is right?
People, good people, would have taken the position "serve me with your subpoena and I will fight it". Cooperation with the devil, even under threat, is not justified.
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I do have to ask...what WAS the reason for taking the money. I'm seriously asking to try and understand this.
It cost me roughly between $25,000 and $30,000 to remove my boys from Dundee. Part of the cost was tuition for Dundee that the judge in my court case imposed on me as a result of the boys removal without going through the proper channels (through her that is). She thought the boys should stay there. The other cost was as a result of legal fees and the actual trip to Dundee. I figure I should not be responsible for any of it. I never wanted any part of this industry...however, those who claimed to have helped me do.
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OK, fair enough if that's how you feel. I don't agree. I wouldn't have taken the money knowing where it came from even if I did feel that I was owed...I agree, you shouldn't have had to be responsible for that money you laid out, but THAT wouldn't have been my way of recovering funds. I also think though, that other people would have been able to at least tolerate this if you would concede that MAYBE, at the VERY LEAST, it looks kind of bad and sends a very contradictory message to people who have been subjected to the abuse in those programs. I understand that you don't feel that you did anything wrong and that WWASP COULD have gotten the info in other ways, but they didn't...they got it from you and paid you for it and that makes quite a few of us "survivors" angry.
I'm not judging, just an explanation as to why people seem to be so upset over this. A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace.
James Madison, The Federalist No. 46
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So, you couldn't get your money back thorugh legal channels and that justifies doing it behind the scenes and hurting others. Sounds like you had bad legal counsel and bad emoitonal support. But, in all honesty, you should have had some innate feeling guiding you not to do what you did.
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Carey,
Your statement "Ameberly gave her statenent to protect Sue" is FALSE.
Amberly gave her statement to Pani when the Costa Rican Gov came into the situation. It was then safe for her to do so. Sue had nothing to do with it. Sue Flowers maybe.
You're trying to simplfy the truth by creating false insinuations wont stand up in court.
It didnt last week under oath..
To say Trekkers goal was to put kids in other Schools programs is a LIE.
Quit tellng lies.
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" I don't think what I did was wrong. Not at all. I think what I did was right...totally right."
Of coarse you think your totally right; You goofy bitch.
Look up malignant narcissist and learn why it is your always right.
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Cayo is right - 100% right!
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Of course, Frod has a point too!
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I agree. Very well stated, Cayohueso. Your mind is beautiful as well... :tup:
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On 2003-12-16 08:47:00, Froderik13 wrote:
"I agree. Very well stated, Cayohueso. Your mind is beautiful as well... :smile: Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Douglas Adams, _Last Chance to See_
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It is easy to blast Carey, people are hipocrites and big talkers. Saying Oh, I would not touch that money or I would not do that. But they would if they where in a similar situation. Maybe Carey chose what she say as the lesser of two evils, work with WWASP or work with Pure, maybe she seen through to what PURE is. I would like to here mor on what her experince has been and why she left pure. But you can say at least one thing about Carey, she is not a follower. I think some people which they had her courage.
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On 2003-12-16 07:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
It's moderator needs to help get everything out on the table without all of the brutlity which seems to go hand-in-hand with saying anything on this board.
What moderator? And who's opinion of what is and is not garbage would you like for the moderator to work from?If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?
--Felton Manifestation
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Carey chose herself at all costs. Carey isn't a follower? Wow, that kind of thinking really makes sense?
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On 2003-12-16 09:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It is easy to blast Carey, people are hipocrites and big talkers. Saying Oh, I would not touch that money or I would not do that. But they would if they where in a similar situation.
I don't think I blasted Carey at all. In fact, I was very careful NOT to blast ANYONE. That was kinda my point...I can disagree with what she did, which I do, WITHOUT resorting to personal attacks.
Just as you don't think I know how I would react in her situation, NEITHER DO YOU...but you feel completely confident in saying that I would do the same thing in her situation. You have some inside knowledge into how my brain works that I don't??? This is how all the name calling gets started. I put up a completely respectful post that happened to disagree with how you felt and you're telling me that I am "blasting" Carey.
Shheeeeeeeeeesh :roll: Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... miamithem' (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/040303082X/circlofmiamithem') target='_new'>H. G. Wells
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Antigen:
You can use the standard of the common decency one human being would show to another.
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No one (decent) would do what Carey has done.
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On 2003-12-16 11:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen:
You can use the standard of the common decency one human being would show to another."
Where the Hell did she NOT do that???!!!Whoever kindles the flames of intolerance in America is lighting a fire underneath his own home.
--Harold E. Stassen, 1947
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On 2003-12-16 11:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen:
You can use the standard of the common decency one human being would show to another."
But who's standard of common decendy should I use? Mine? PURE's? Frodericks? Sorry, it's not my job to decide for you what you should read or what you should write or what you should believe. You'll have to manage that on your own.
That which does not kill you can make you stronger, but I really never needed to be this strong.
Scott Wagner
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Thanks for your help on that!
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OK, people are mad at Carey for giving/selling info. Ginger said earlier somewhere that she thought that Carey made a mistake, but that she probably wasn't evil (paraphrasing obviously). People jumped on Ginger for defending Carey and started saying that Ginger had ulterior motives and was just as bad as Carey or WHATEVER. To again paraphrase...Ginger agrees with part of what people are saying but not another part. Hmmmmmmmm....I agree with PART of what GINGER'S assessment is but DISAGREE with ANOTHER part....does that mean I'm "in on" this too??? PEOPLE.....let's move on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some people think what Carey did was very wrong...those people have made their point very clear....those that have a different view have made THEIR views crystal clear. Is there any reason to keep going over and over this???
Wicked men obey from fear, good men from love.
--Aristotle
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What WWASP tortures children? When? No quoting newspaper articles or heresay...just the facts, please.
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I don't know where you heard such a thing. WWASP torturing children? Places like Tranquility Bay and Dundee Ranch are highly reputable. Just visit their websites and see for yourself. :rofl:
I am joking BTW. (How DARE I do a thing like that on an "adult" forum) :lol:
Ok seriously, would someone fill them in please?
(There is plenty of evidence of abuse in these facilities)
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cayohueso
I wouldn't have taken the money knowing where it came from
That's where I've always had a big problem with any civil suites against these programs. Think about the outcome of Phil's work in winning settlements for Lulu and Rebecca. Total settlements added up to $11.5mil and Virgil is now in bankrupsy. That's good. Rebecca and Lulu will never have to worry about money ever again. That's good. Phil enhanced his career by doing good work for a good cause. I generally don't like lawyers, but Phil is a singular hero of mine; an exception that proves the rule.
But where did the money come from? Not from Virgil. He just divested himself of all his assetts into the Christ at the Beach Foundation. And, since he lives in Florida, bankrupsy doesn't really mean much. He gets to keep up to a 5 bdrm house, some number of acres, a car (even if it were a Jag) for ever member of the household who's old enough to drive and then some.
The money came from the insurance companies, who then passed their loss onto their policy holders.
Now we're set to sue I don't know who over Straight, Inc. The Semblers? Where'd they get that money? The taxpayors of Florida?
If you think this coming suit won't hurt some innocent people, think again. The bad guys at the center of it have a history of culling their flock and throwing selected lambs to the wolves whenever they start feeling a little heat.
I'll join a class action, though, if one is filed. I think it'll bring some publicity to our cause, make people think a little bit about it. And I might even get back some portion of my inheritance that my mother handed over to the Semblers all those years ago. It's not all good. But I've given it s good deal of thought and decided that, on balance, it's mostly good.
Anonymous
You're trying to simplfy the truth by creating false insinuations wont stand up in court.
Who here is not trying to oversimplify the situation?
When we are pleading with foreign governments to stop the flow of cocaine, it is the height of hypocrisy for the US to export tobacco. Years from now, our nation will look back on this application of free trade policy and find it scandalous.
1989 testimony before the US Trade Representative,September 1989
--Surgeon General, Everett Koop
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not tainted money Carey? Tell that to Judas and Christ.
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How about those three kids that testified at the Farmer trial? Is that proof enough. A Judge found them credible. That alone is good enough for me.
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Cayo is right. Carey is PIG SLOP, so let's just move on. I think I got the answer to yesterday's thread too. Is it hosebeast?
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On 2003-12-16 11:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What WWASP tortures children? When? "
Thank you for posing this question, Anon. It well illustrates a point I'm trying hard to make here.
In their view, WWASP is not torturing anybody. They're helping everybody and taking all kinds of flack for it. That is not just a cover story for them. They believe it. Jim Jones' followers, for the most part, believed in everything they were involved in too and so did most Germans throughout WWII.
I view it very differently. WWASP is, as I understand it, a corporation set up to facilitate recruiting for these schools and programs. The people who make up this corporation have a long history of direct involvement in these types of programs, but they're not involved at the moment, at least not on paper.
To say that WWASP does not torture children is like saying if you hire a hit man, then it's not murder. You'd have to believe either that what goes on in these schools and programs is not torture (and some people do believe that) or you'd have to believe that they have nothing to do with getting kids into these programs, which doesn't make any sense at all. Even they don't deny that.
On 2003-12-16 11:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
No quoting newspaper articles or heresay...just the facts, please.
This is the good part. I can't even find a definition from the Nizkor list to cover this. But it's just so damned familiar, it really needs a name. Maybe someone can help.
It has to do with defining the rules of engagement in an illogical way. You want proof that WWASP tortures children. But you won't accept any of the evidence as valid. In order to hold WWASP harmless, you have to ignore it all. Newspapers, court testimoney, eye witness accounts, financial interest.
What, exactly, would you accept as proof? Would someone have to come up with a video tape showing a kid in OP, starting some time before the event to proove he didn't bring it on himself? That will never happen, or at least it's extremely unlikely. That's one reason, imo, for the full body cavity search. As long as you rule out evidence you can't control, you can always be right.
Incidentally or not, this is just exactly how the DFAF and their philisophical bretheren went about killing Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
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Thanks Ginger -
Your forum, as well as others, say that all programs for teens are torture. I guess it all depends on your definition of torture. Juvenile prison is torture, not just mentally, but physically. Suicide, cutting (self torture) bulemia, anorexia...symptoms of ADD (anger, self medication, stomped on self esteem by teachers, etc.) are torture as well.
Finding a program where the underlying reasons for teens self abusing can also be torture - for the parents that have tried so much and still nothing is bringing their child to be what could be considered normal. They torture themselves for not being able to handle it themselves. Torture for the kids that can no longer manipulate their parents into whatever they are manipulating them into.
Rules to following can be torture, sitting in an isolation room can be torture. Parents getting letters from their kid saying they are being abused can be torture. Separation can be torture.
Choices can be painful.
Watching your child destroy their life can be torture, even more torture, in the worst case, would be a lifetime of torture if the child dies and you didn't do anything.
So wwasp torture children...I guess all of these types of schools also torture children. These programs are "private pay" and that makes it a bad thing? What about the state run facilities that hire unqualified staff? Does it make it better because we are all paying for them? Problem with those types of programs/whatever you call them, is that are so short term, they rarely have positive results. Children in the private pay schools not only learn to make better choices, they actually have the time to apply what they've learned.
Do they come home perfect little robots? I wouldn't think so. They are better prepared for life's challenges, though...assuming they complete the entire program. Do they fall? I'm sure they do, we all do in life. We fall, we get up, we fall, we get up again...or not.
Your analogy of Jim Jones is digging pretty low, Ginger. Go to any bookstore and you'll find racks and racks of self-help books. The same things that these schools are actually having the students apply (Bradshaw, Covey, Thom Hartmann...just to name a couple).. not to just read.
Is it torture...could be, just depends on your perception. Kinda like newspaper articles and he said/she said allegations.
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Don't worry, someone will come along any minute with alot more to say about this. I will offer you this advice on the fly though - do some more reading before you jump to that conclusion. Do a google search on Tranquility Bay, etc. and see what you find...
Ok, next -
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On 2003-12-16 12:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Cayo is right. Carey is PIG SLOP, so let's just move on. I think I got the answer to yesterday's thread too. Is it hosebeast?"
DO NOT include me in the name calling :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim: I never said ANYTHING REMOTELY LIKE THAT.I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much
liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
--Thomas Jefferson, 1791, in a letter to Archibald Stuart
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Amberly gave her statement to Pani when the Costa Rican Gov came into the situation. It was then safe for her to do so. Sue had nothing to do with it.
Anon, that is a bold face lie. Who ever you are Anon, if you are a trekker you know that.
She did give a statement to the PANI, but it has changed three times. As a matter of fact it has changed since then. The one I saw at my depo was totally different. Why is it changeing? Is it because Sue is helping her to remember what happened? Yes! Sue had everything to do with it. Sue needed Amberly and Randal for her court case, not the Huron case, but her court case. She told me that herself, Sue that is.
What was Amberly afraid of back then, that she should not be afraid of now? Why is it safe for her to now speak out? Why has her story changed? Oh is it because of the protection of Sue's attorneys. Or could it be the Mafia, the Litchfields are in the Mafia, according to Sue. Is that what she is afraid of?
Wake up people.
not tainted money Carey? Tell that to Judas and Christ
Sorry, in my opinon Sue is not the saviour of our youth. She is an individual who exploits families.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-12-16 13:33 ]
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Carey,
Everyone has woken up to you. You've cost this board more aggrevation than anyone ever. Take your $12,500 and your pack of lies and go do what you do best, pedal it!
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Folks, I copied this whole post over to a new thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3865&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3865&forum=9)
This is a new idea. If it goes badly, I probably won't try it ever again.
I locked the other topic just for now. I don't plan on locking any topics in futre based on whether or not I like what people are saying.
I'm requesting that we limit discussion in the other topic to serious debate of the issues.
I'll unlock the other topic in... say... an hour or so.
Time's fun when you're having flies.
--Kermit the Frog
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Oh Anon, I am going to do just what you say. Get real.
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Sue is a mess too for taking that rediculous amount of money from you, but at least she helped you get your children out of the situation they were in, and babysat your sorry ass.
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She did not help me do anything. She is the biggest fraud there ever was...bigger than WWASP. You just can't see it.
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Possibly as big as but that doesn't have anything to do with the kind of person you've turned out to be.
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What kind of person, the kind of person who can post using my name...a person who can hold my head up high. What kind of person are you, well, you are an annoymous person...one who does not believe in ones ownself. One who is afraid for people to know your identity. That says enough about you for me to realize you don't have any faith or belief in your own words. So why should I care what you think or how you feel about me. You yourself don't care...if you did you would not be afraid to say who you are.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-12-16 14:03 ]
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You care enough to keep reading and responding. You have the money, you're not giving it back, which is fine (nobody expects that). Just admit you are a first class "B" for taking it. Think about how your selfish decision impacted many innocent people and helped feed the beast and then move on!
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What innocent people...you parents who were duped and who are being duped again? You are not innocent, you are a trekker.
All of these Anon posts are coming from only a handful of trekkers. It is so obvious. All others who post can say who they are because they have not compromised what they stand for, which is no incarceration of teens with out due process.
Others who post their name and are pro WWASP are more creditable than you trekkers. Why? Because they truely believe in what they say (right or wrong) they believe it. You on the other had must have serious doubts about yourself and your beliefs. That hurts your cause more than anything I can do or I can say. Can't you see that?
You don't have to believe me or agree with me but the least you can do is believe in yourself and believe in what you say, believe it enough to stand behind it.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-12-16 15:01 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-12-16 15:03 ]
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I can assure you I'm no "trekker", not even close. It's not the subject anyway. Carey, I can see why you have been lamb basted in this forum. You betrayed everyone, and then come back to try and salvage friendships and defend your position. It's clear now why you are in the situation. This has nothing to do with who I am or even who the others are. By the way, I thought you were done with me? This has to do with the fact that you prostituted yourself and others so you could lay your hands on more money at one time than you could ever hope to have in your sad sorry life. What was the reason you and your husband divorced. Probably twoo many of these conversations.
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FACT: Amberly has NOT spoken to Sue Scheff in almost 6 months. She has only spoken to her a few times, ever, contrary to what Sue might say!
FACT: Amberly has never written a statement for Sue Scheff. She has written many that have been available to different people. They are different according to the questions that are asked of her.
FACT: Trekkers is not PURE. They were a group of people with one objective. To exchange information to save the rights of children in these abusive "schools". MOST had nothing to do with Sue Scheff or PURE and were hurt by Carey's actions.
FACT: Carey was a member of trekkers and exchanged information with them. The people of trekkers still have the integrity to not share publicly all their personal e-mails from Carey just to prove how she has contridicted herself over the last year.
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May I present Scary Carey (ho, ho, ho)
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Carey, I think you're mistaken in a couple of subtle ways. Let me try and clarify that, point by point.
On 2003-12-16 14:58:00, Carey wrote:
"What innocent people...you parents who were duped and who are being duped again? You are not innocent, you are a trekker.
Yes, duped and then duped again very like a battered woman bouncing from one abuser to the next. No one's entirely innocent and no one's forcing them, against their will, to buy the same bad song and dance again and again. But they're not exactly acting with malice aforethought, either. They're getting rooked. And, as you well know, they're getting rooked for a WHOLE lot more than just money.
All of these Anon posts are coming from only a handful of trekkers.
Nope. Some of them are. But there are others. Doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong about everything or anyone's right about everything. Just means that this is apparently a valid topic of debate.
It is so obvious. All others who post can say who they are because they have not compromised what they stand for, which is no incarceration of teens with out due process.
There are a lot of different reasons why people post anonymously. Very often, it's unfounded fear. Other times, it's because they want to say something they know they'd regret if it ever got back to them. But, often enough, it's because they want to say something really worthwhile and don't want to drag along the extra baggage their name has picked up in some smouldering flame war.
You don't have to believe me or agree with me but the least you can do is believe in yourself and believe in what you say, believe it enough to stand behind it.
Carey, one thing to remember about most of the people involved in this issue is that the Program is effective! Not the least bit therapeutic, mind you, but very, very effective!
Why would Amberly change her story over and over? Is she getting a little help from some mentor? That seems like a pretty sensible assumption. All I know about Amberly is that she went to work as a director of Dundee. So she must have made it into the inner circle somehow. Is she a program graduate? Don't you think she's probably quite suggestible right about now. She's been broken down and rebuilt mentally twice so far, that we know of.
I won't argue that she's telling the truth. I don't even know what she's saying, frankly. But I would argue that it's very, very likely that she believes what she's saying, even when she contradicts herself. We're not dealing with patently sane people here. Most of the people we're dealing with bought into the Program at some point.
Even those who never really completely bought it are effected. I don't think I ever lost site of my long term plan to get away from the crazy people and never look back. Never the less, when I first got out, I didn't think of most of the Program tactics as abusive. It took me some time to shake it off and catch up on my thinking. These folks haven't had a chance to catch their breath. Right out of the frying pan into the fire.
If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson
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FACT: Amberly has NOT spoken to Sue Scheff in almost 6 months. She has only spoken to her a few times, ever, contrary to what Sue might say!
Sure anon, you are creditable. Who are you? Who knows, right?
FACT: Amberly has never written a statement for Sue Scheff. She has written many that have been available to different people. They are different according to the questions that are asked of her.
Right...funny Scheff is using it in her suit. How can she do that without Amberly's swearing it in as her sworn statement? Oh, I guess she could have borrowed it from Paula, who by the way is linked to Sue...remember it was Sue who helped Paula to find another "more kinder" program for her child. From what I hear, it eneded up being another abusive program. Why did Paula need the statement? Never mind I already know the answer to that.
FACT: Trekkers is not PURE. They were a group of people with one objective. To exchange information to save the rights of children in these abusive "schools". MOST had nothing to do with Sue Scheff or PURE and were hurt by Carey's actions.
Yes they are. You wish they weren't but they are. The proof is in the emails.
FACT: Carey was a member of trekkers and exchanged information with them. The people of trekkers still have the integrity to not share publicly all their personal e-mails from Carey just to prove how she has contridicted herself over the last year.
Yes Carey was a member until she could see that what was going on was wrong.
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Alright, here's a little blast from the past I found in the archives, and so true. This is the kind of feeling you invoke with your nutty thinking Carey. Except, for item one, I'd have to agree with everything else:
"Blow me you whore. You goofy bowl of foul pig slop. You annoying clump of spoiled moose entrails. You flea-bitten mound of gross smegma. You inadequate blob of stenchy weasel warts. You pustulent bunch of steaming rabbit raisins."
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Let me guess? FROG posting as anon??? ::soapbox::
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That's a GREAT emoticon
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You were not exploited by the trekkers.
You particiapted by choice. We did not exploit you.
Christine, I suppose the same could be said about you. You were not exploited by WWASP, you participated in the placement of your child in their program by choice. They did not exploit you.
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"You goofy bowl of foul pig slop. You annoying clump of spoiled moose entrails. You flea-bitten mound of gross smegma. You inadequate blob of stenchy weasel warts. You pustulent bunch of steaming rabbit raisins"
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Let me guess? FROG posting as anon???
Actually no, it wasn't me. (Just got online.) Sounds like me though...Hey! I have imitators!
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PS - Eegads! Would it be too much to ask for someone to fix page 6 of this thread? Carey, you could do it by editing that quote tag...
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Yes Carey was a member until she could see that what was going on was wrong.
Carey, please don't refer to yourself in the third person. I've talked to you before about this...Does the name Bob Dole ring a bell?
And please fix that page. It's rather hard on the eyes.
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a legend in your own mind carey!
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On 2003-12-16 17:14:00, Carey wrote:
"You were not exploited by the trekkers.
You particiapted by choice. We did not exploit you.
Christine, I suppose the same could be said about you. You were not exploited by WWASP, you participated in the placement of your child in their program by choice. They did not exploit you.
"
She also didn't take $12,500 ho!
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On 2003-12-16 16:07:00, Carey wrote:
Yes they are. You wish they weren't but they are. The proof is in the emails.
How much of those emails are public record? I understand that the judge asked for copies with some names dedacted to protect the innocent. Would that edited material, then, become part of the public record?
Here's my theory. Trekkers started out with good intentions and reasonable discretion for the purpose of getting the word out on abusive programs. Sue came along sincerely wishing to help in that effort, then had a relapse of chronic higher purpose disease. I want to know if I'm right or not.
Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following
pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them
general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong,
gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises
at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But the
tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
Thomas Paine, Common Sense
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On 2003-12-17 06:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
She also didn't take $12,500 ho!"
No, apparently she was too busy reaching for the $300k
I know that our bodies were made to thrive only in pure air, and the scenes in which pure air is found.
-- John Muir
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Ginger, Christine got $300,000?
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Christine got $300,000?
Who the hell's Christine?
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On 2003-12-17 09:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ginger, Christine got $300,000?"
Sorry, missed that. Thought we were still talking about Sue.Until God Himself arrives to ENFORCE His will, I will systematically reject all offers by human beings to do so.
--Sam
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Christine, I suppose the same could be said about you. You were not exploited by WWASP, you participated in the placement of your child in their program by choice. They did not exploit you
==============================
This is where I found the $300,000 comment. I was just wondering seriously, if Ginger meant Christine got $300,00 and who she was or is.
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OK
Well Ginger just killed two birds with one stone and answered both of our questions.
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It's tough to keep all of these pay-offs straight!
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And I don't know who Christine is. I gather she's a former WWASP/PURE parent. I hope she and her kid are both able to shake it off without too much permanent harm.
All we ask is to be let alone.
-- Jefferson Davis (1808-1889): First Message to the Confederate Congress, March,1861.
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Ginger, sounds to me like the Trekkers had the best of intentions but got messed up when they invited the fox (PURE) into the hen house.
:grin:
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That's pretty much what I think too.
Fresh beauty opens one's eyes wherever it is really seen, but the very abundance and completeness of the common beauty that besets our steps prevents its being absorbed and appreciated. It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountain-tops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to common everyday beauty.
-- John Muir
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The Trekkers basically got overrun with ex-wwaspies, is what it sounds like. Not smart, but hopefully not fatal to their cause.