Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CAN ~ Collective Action Network => Topic started by: Che Gookin on February 05, 2008, 08:19:11 PM
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Botched Programming and I had the following convo about fliers...
[Today at 06:55:26 PM] Botched Programming: you gonna help me out with making a standard flyer???
[Today at 06:55:44 PM] Che Gookin: be happy to.
[Today at 06:55:55 PM] Che Gookin: a good 1 page flyer is a better bet anyway.
[Today at 06:56:04 PM] Che Gookin: the entire orange papers might be a bit much.
[Today at 06:56:17 PM] Botched Programming: I'll pm you my real e-mail address
[Today at 06:56:26 PM] Che Gookin: you have yahoo or msn?
[Today at 06:56:39 PM] Botched Programming: yea... I sorta butchered it to suit my own need
[Today at 06:56:56 PM] Botched Programming: nah... just my work e-mail
[Today at 06:57:12 PM] Che Gookin: I hear you there.
[Today at 06:57:32 PM] Che Gookin: ok.. well what exactly where you thinking of getting across to these said dophers?
[Today at 06:57:50 PM] Che Gookin: you just want them to read the orange papers?
[Today at 06:58:31 PM] Botched Programming: nah... we want it to reflect any thing we can think of
[Today at 06:58:47 PM] Botched Programming: can include different websites as reference
[Today at 07:00:11 PM] Botched Programming: We can talk about losing freedom of choice by being in treatment centers
[Today at 07:00:15 PM] Che Gookin: yeah.. well what would make you think?
[Today at 07:00:28 PM] Che Gookin: gotta hit them in the first few sentences.. or you've lost them.
[Today at 07:00:57 PM] Che Gookin: What is the biggest criticism of AA by active members?
[Today at 07:01:10 PM] Botched Programming: and brainwashing techniques used by treatment centers that are followed up by 12 step programming
[Today at 07:01:31 PM] Che Gookin: See you'd loose them with that if you slap them in the face with it.
[Today at 07:01:56 PM] Che Gookin: you have to start them on the road of catching a clue.. can't stuff it up their ass no matter how tempting.
[Today at 07:02:31 PM] Botched Programming: We should create a think tank in YLF
[Today at 07:03:08 PM] Che Gookin: Well I want to do that for Teen Challenge for sure.
[Today at 07:03:48 PM] Botched Programming: But I do want to deliver more papers for sure
[Today at 07:04:10 PM] Che Gookin: I have to say the common denominator amongst all of these is lack of freedom of expression
[Today at 07:04:29 PM] Che Gookin: like in AA if you talk about something not alky related it is considered "cross talk".
[Today at 07:04:58 PM] Che Gookin: Teen Challenge is pretty much if you don't start with Jesus and end with Jesus you are in deep doo doo.
[Today at 07:05:38 PM] Che Gookin: I think playing on that theme of lack of freedom of expression could tap into a vien of resentment and get some decent results.
[Today at 07:05:56 PM] Botched Programming: The big thing that I experienced in NA was how working the steps was the only thing that was going to change your life
[Today at 07:06:38 PM] Che Gookin: yeah.
[Today at 07:07:00 PM] Che Gookin: well I suggest playing on both themes, but be brief and quick about it.
[Today at 07:07:05 PM] Botched Programming: also the thought that if one ever used again the only result is Jails, Institutions, and death
[Today at 07:07:25 PM] Che Gookin: and then provide somel links for them to follow up on
[Today at 07:08:36 PM] Che Gookin: thing is... you have to change content every few weeks.
[Today at 07:08:43 PM] Botched Programming: Which of our people can clearly articulate this stuff and put it in a soft gently way???
[Today at 07:08:52 PM] Che Gookin: ummm... hmmmm Not me.
[Today at 07:09:09 PM] Che Gookin: the question is less Articulation.. and more catchy.
[Today at 07:09:09 PM] Botched Programming: the most soft spoken is the one loudest heard
[Today at 07:09:44 PM] Che Gookin: and sometimes a picture speaks a thousand words.
[Today at 07:09:57 PM] Botched Programming: true
[Today at 07:10:15 PM] Botched Programming: well time to fly.... hit me up tomorrow
[Today at 07:10:32 PM] Che Gookin: deffo... I'
[Today at 07:10:51 PM] Che Gookin: I'll start a think tank thread on the YLF forum.
[Today at 07:10:56 PM] Che Gookin: get this rolling.
Let's get some ideas going for some hard hitting fliers..
Discuss.
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Find ways to generate doubt, and then give them the means to exercise it and find out the facts for themselves.
Find different ways to go for people who are either new to the koolaid, or have been in on it a while.
Be clear and to the point.
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1 picture speaks a thousand words.
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Use their own dogma against them. Cite the professional opinions debunking their cult-ish ways. ICSA's library is a fine place to look for info on the twelve-stepping teetotalitarians.
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Perhaps you can post some specific examples of this to get the ball rolling?
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I'll look around.
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After spending my years in the NA cult something that comes to mind is how just like any other cult, their literature is designed get in your head.
At the beginning of the meetings they pass out cards and read the propaganda that is written on them. What many people don't know is these are the words of "Jimmy K" the cult leader himself. If anyone has read NA's sacred book "The Basic Text," in almost every chapter in the first half has paragraphs that are "Italacized" these too are the words of their leader.
They say the message of the writings in the book is suppose to bring you hope, when it actually is designed to make a person think that they can not live without the program.
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just remember.. confronting a system based on illogical thinking is best approached with logical facts. the act of humiliating a member of na or a cult in general has been proven to have the exact opposite effect. this is demonstrated by rick ross and his bungling of the waco siege where he encouraged the feebs to humiliate david koresh to attempt to lower his standing amongst his followers. it obviously didn't work at waco, and direct confrontation didn't work at Benchmark either.
at benchmark each and every student was given the chance at a bus ticket home, and some food money... none of them took it.
you want these fliers to be nonconfrontational, but at the same time thought provoking.
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Bill W. asked for a shot of whiskey before he kicked off, and the AA whackos around him refused, I guess to maintain Bill "died sober"...as if that really means shit.
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http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookre ... thecli.htm (http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_bookreviews/bkrev_religionandthecli.htm)
There's a place to start...interesting quote, although maybe not useful in a flier critical of just the AA/NA crowd:
"Hopson on the AA 12-step programs being applied to non-substance-abuse treatment in an attempt to add nonreligious spirituality to therapy."
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Well I'd suggest rather than attempting to actively draw someone away from the culty thinking of NA, we may want to consider putting the information out their for them to digest. Let them figure it out for themselves, and make avaliable for them a place to easily access further information.
I'd steer away from the boiler plate rebuttals.
I'd avoid attempting to diminish the standing of the leaders or backers of whatever group it is.
Just put some facts out there in easily consumable portions. (2 inch rule applies)
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From: http://www.aarc.ab.ca/the_AARC_program.html (http://www.aarc.ab.ca/the_AARC_program.html)
The AARC program offers comprehensive assessment, treatment and aftercare, based on the concepts of:
* Twelve Step Recovery models of Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous (AA/NA)
The Twelve Traditions
One—Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.
Except those who screw up too bad and are "banished"
Two—For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.
That's why permission slips are required so youth can get a jacket from their parents when the season changes? And parents will be kicked out and lose contact with their own children if they miss a meeting to attend to something like changing residence without a permission given in advance.
Or - ONE authority... I thought everyone had their own "higher power" that would make as many authorities as there are clients and family members.
Three—The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.
And to renovate your house according to program standards, and to remove any children from the home (placing them in foster care if necessary) who can not participate in the program, and to not have any roommates or tenants who are not involved in the program, and to give the program more money than you can afford to give, and to lock up clients under the supervision of other clients in your home... and ... and ... and
Four—Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
I don't imagine the female AARC clients who had to go "door knocking" for an MLA during a campaign did so "autonomously".
Five—Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
That and to make money... lots of money.
Six—An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
An endorsement? http://www.sportcourtalberta.com/Adoles ... covery.pdf (http://www.sportcourtalberta.com/Adolescent%20Recovery.pdf)
Seven—Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.
One example of many:
AARC’s sixth annual “Tournament of Miracles” hosted by Bob Tessari, Tesco Corpo-
ration and the Alberta Adolescent Recovery Centre (AARC) will be held at SilverTip
Golf Course in Canmore, on Thursday, August 19, 2004.
Every year has been a sell out, and this year will be no exception! Each year Tesco,
along with other sponsors and golfers help AARC raise over $100,000 for the teen
drug treatment centre. These funds help ensure no family is turned away because
they are unable to pay the full cost of treatment.
AARC reaches out to teens and their families who are in a bitter battle with the
ravages of addiction. The Centre is often the last hope for the adolescent family. To
date, AARC has graduated 251 clients, which includes over 650 family members.
The Calgary community benefits from the success of the AARC graduates. Inde-
pendent validation of AARC’s treatment outcomes reported that over 80% of our
graduates are today clean and sober, in school or working and reunited with their
families, instead of being a drain on society.
Dr. F. Dean Vause, the Board of Directors, the clients, families and staff of AARC are
indeed grateful for the continued support of Tesco Corporation.
“When I came into treatment, my life was a mess. My drug use was out of control
and I had lost everything in my life. Today I am a completely different person. I have
a job, I’m going to school, and most importantly, I am no longer bound by my addic-
tion.”
Ben - AARC Graduate
Karen McKay
Fund Development Manager
Self supporting - :D
Also see http://www.thunderbay.ca/docs/business/3288.pdf Page 36 "Institutional" for more evidence of AARC's lack of outside contributions.
Eight—Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.
Why are kids court ordered to anything non-professional? Why does a "non-professional" agency claim to cure mental illnesses which require "professionals" to treat? Why does the program go on about it's unique blend of personal and clinical experience? Why is Dean Vause referred to as a psychologist in the media if he isn't one? What do you call a doctor who treats the kids in the program and their judge-spouse who orders children there without parental consent? Non-professionals? Or are they the "special workers"?
Nine—A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.
Why are we expected to follow a "chain of command" if it's not organized? newcomer, oldcomer, oldtimer, graduate, peer counselor, clinical counselor... ? Sounds pretty organized.
Ten—Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.
The legal matters of a graduate would be an outside issue, and I would consider the following an opinion: In closing, I had the opportunity to spend a full day clinically addressing the
accident and the shame Amy felt. She felt horrible and deep guilt to the family
of the deceased. From http://www.albertacourts.ab.ca/jdb/2003 ... pc0129.pdf (http://www.albertacourts.ab.ca/jdb/2003-/pc/criminal/2005/2005abpc0129.pdf)
Eleven—Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.
See Twelve
Twelve—Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.
Right. That's why AARC/Vause regularly graces the pages of the Calgary Sun and other media outlets and is a favorite of "Society Columnists"
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How about this?
Have a picture of a sobriety chip. (with an actual number value on it, such at 30 days, 5 years, etc. I'm leaning towards a large span of time, such as five years.) Then underneath the chip have it say "What are you really counting?" Then an URL to whatever you were wanting it to link to.
It's very nebulous, and only hints at something critical of 12 step. So it might pique their curiosity to check out the website. Maybe we can have a portal site that links to the other pages, and on the portal explain the full intent of the flier. I think that chips are one of the most telling things about 12 step, because it is a technique used to keep people in the fold. It's a shame-based deterrent to keep people from using, drinking, leaving, because if they do, they have to start their sobriety countdown all over again. (Not leaving directly, but the group uses fear in an attempt to convince the person that if they leave, it's only a matter of time before they start using again.)
It continues to remind you that you are part of a group, and the chips are little cookies of approval.
As someone who was in the fold 18+ months, I can tell you with authority that people who had time there way longer than what was required by the state would come in visibly fucked up and collect chips. My question was, if you are drinking/using, and you are no longer required to be there, why the fuck are you still there collecting chips that essentially say nothing about what you are really doing? Cause you are counting the amount of time you have been in 12 step, not how long you have been sober, that's why.
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How about:
You ARE NOT powerless!
and go on to say how AA misleads their members into dependance and relapse by exploiting an addicts weakness instead of encouraging will power and self motivation.
or
Addiction is NOT a Disease
and go on to mention that a disease and a disorder are two different things and a behavior, such as choosing to injest a substance is neither.
AA is a CULT
and go on to make the similarities in comparison to other known aspects of cults.
or
Recovery is NOT a Religion
and go on to talk about the way that converting to a "god concept" is held as a requirement for recovery is not only unconstitutional but it is only evidence that AA/NA is only a modern day religious crusade.
Just a few ideas.
BTW if you need help with the design concept of these flyers let me know I can knock one out for ya.
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Actually, on second thought, you should just put up fliers that advertise happy hour for all of the local bars. Free pitcher with every 30 day chip.
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While I support opposition to troubled teen gulags and such, I fail to see how the demonization of the 12 step modality is going to accomplish much of anything. Perhaps I am just not reading the thread closely enough? The purpose of these fliers is what exactly?
1. What message do you want to relay?
2. What positive ideology can you include to help facilitate communication?
Blasting an idea, or a modality, or a program simply by pointing out the negatives does nothing to truely address the situation. Offer an alternative.
In the case of 12 step opposition, I would personally suggest looking into "Smart Recovery" or "Life-Ring".
.02
Edit: Remember that 12 step communities are like any community. There are good ones and bad ones. Many 12 step groups are nothing but meat markets for folks with a damaged past, however MANY 12 step communities help both their members and the communities that they reside in.
Are you talking about adults or adolescents?
Many of the "cult" aspects of NA and AA involve psychological devices that replace habitual and ritualized perperation, lifestyle, and consumption of drugs with a lifestyle that is "addicted" to the concepts of sobriety and the concept of maintaining sobriety through reaching out to others.
Not that I support AA and NA, I personally find their bluntly christian overtones to be a turn off...but to deny that the modality has increased basic quality of life for many members is simply untrue.
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Im not sure.. but I think that whole flier endeavor was shitcanned. Best to ask psy.
As far as Im concerned, adults who choose to join something is none of my business. Cult, AA, KKK, NAMBLA, NAACP. Whatever. Their choice. Biggest prob I have with 12 step is that courts force people to go.
Doesnt mean Im going to do anything about it. Just sayin.
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I'll let you in on a dirty secret.
Courts mandate AA/NA attendance because its a free treatment modality that has a track record of having a moderate success rate at increasing the quality of life for folks. On the flip side of the coin, statistically speaking, the pressure from court mandated recovery or pressure related to losing your job shows higher sustained sobriety rates than "walk ins".
Of course statistical studies of 12 Step "lifetime" sobriety also prove quite nicely how unobtainable the abstinence based models REALLY are, but hey....if it keeps the syringe out of your arm for 1 more day to say the Serinity Prayer, why knock it?
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I'll let you in on a dirty secret.
Courts mandate AA/NA attendance because its a free treatment modality that has a track record of having a moderate success rate at increasing the quality of life for folks.
While that might be the public perception, that's just not true. See Brandsma et. al. (http://http://orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#powerless_binge) That's hardly the only study finding that. The truth is AA is not only worse than no treatment at all, it's much much worse, actually causing harm.
What's really interesting on some other studies that have been done is that the people who do worst attribute their success to AA most emphatically. Just because somebody believes something is working does not mean it's actually objectively so.
And btw, AA is not christian at all. Many of their teachings are in stark opposition to those in the bible, such as the teaching that a human being has free will and actions are choices. A couple links on that:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-heresy.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-heresy.html)
http://www.2ndccn.com/Twelve_Steps_to_Hell.html (http://www.2ndccn.com/Twelve_Steps_to_Hell.html) (warning, gospel tract)
The bible explicitly says that drunkenness (or anything in excess for that matter) is a sin, and not a disease a person cannot control. If most churches knew what AA actually taught, they probably wouldn't allow them to have meetings there. AA is more a religion in itself than a method of recovery.
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The important question Psy, is as follows....."How are you measuring the word success"
Now if you are talking about lifetime sobriety, you won't find a damn program on planet earth that has any meaningful success rate. However if you define it by giving people an increase (however slight) in their day to day quality of life, and the ability to participate in a community that supports the concept of sobriety SOME 12 step communities can be very efficacious.
This does not mean I personally support the modality. It does mean that I understand the applicability of a faith based self help program in regards to certain populations. If you are polling a client from a culture that has shame or obligation based traditional rules (like Asian), or a culture that does not support open group discussion of patriarchal weakness (Latino), then you will have a lower rate of compliance (in the clinical sense).
Am I making sense?
I'm familiar with the "cult" mentality of the 12 step community, like I said....its derived from a christian root organization called "The Oxford Group" so do you honestly think that it can shed those roots? No. The organization cannot, nor should they rid themselves of that which forms the basis of their ideology.
The axiom most pertinent to this topic is "Some things work for some people some of the time". Thats a truism in the behavioral health and recovery professions. 12 step works for many people to some degree or another.
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And btw, AA is not christian at all. Many of their teachings are in stark opposition to those in the bible, such as the teaching that a human being has free will and actions are choices.
The 12 step modality evolved out of quasi temperance movement. It has christian roots, and while not technically christian in their practices, the root behavior is there....evidenced by the concept of fellowship and somewhat "blind" obedience to mantra's such as "we keep what we have by giving it away", "It works if you work it", etc etc.
Hope that clears things up....I want it to be understood that I really do know what I'm talking about some of the time when I post on this forum. These are literally life and death things that we talk about...esp in regards to addiction and recovery.
Edit: Let me also be clear in regards to my intention in this thread. I am not attacking the idea of offering an alternative to 12 steps, I am simply stating that creating documentation of the type should include suggestions and information that allows increased access to another treatment modality.
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The important question Psy, is as follows....."How are you measuring the word success"
Now if you are talking about lifetime sobriety, you won't find a damn program on planet earth that has any meaningful success rate. However if you define it by giving people an increase (however slight) in their day to day quality of life, and the ability to participate in a community that supports the concept of sobriety SOME 12 step communities can be very efficacious.
Define "quality of life". If it simply means feeling good perhaps they shouldn't quit drinking. Hell. Maybe they should take up smack or some other opiate. Again, believing something works does not mean it objectively does. Sure people get sober in AA. I'm not denying that. What i'm questioning is whether those people wouldn't have gotten sober anyway on their own. Since AA's sucess has never been shown to be higher than the spontaneous rate of remission it's not really correct to say that it works. You wouldn't say a placebo works, even if a person does "get better" on it... but as i've said, AA is a bit worse than a placebo.
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Quality of life is defined by an individuals ability to fulfil what are called "ADL's". This means getting up and going to work, taking part in society, having a reasonable range of emotions (happy, sad, joyful, angry, etc), and generally feeling that they have a "life worth living".
I've always found it amusing that the statistics of spontaneous remission and AA assisted remission are pretty similar. Thats no joke....but the question of "could they have done it without AA" is sort of a moot point from my perspective.
If someone FEELS that AA helps them, then it helps them. Much the same way that statistically speaking the modality of a psychotherapist (narrative systems analyst, humanistic, behaviorist, etc) has zero effect on whether or not a person increases their quality of life. The ONLY case this isn't consistent in is regarding Cognitive behavioral and Dialectical behavior therapies in the treatment of anxiety disorders.
Just because I personally feel that AA is idiotic doesn't mean I will steer a client away from 12 step if it is somethign they want to explore. When speaking of adults, nobody forces them into an AA meeting (except court) and nobody forces them to really "get anything" out of their experience there.
Now adolescents are a completely different story. I don't really have the training to address addiction in that demographic, but I wouldn't personally push for an abstinence based modality (including 12 step) simply because I feel that it is not an attainable goal for a 15 year old.
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And btw, AA is not christian at all. Many of their teachings are in stark opposition to those in the bible, such as the teaching that a human being has free will and actions are choices.
The 12 step modality evolved out of quasi temperance movement. It has christian roots, and while not technically christian in their practices, the root behavior is there....evidenced by the concept of fellowship and somewhat "blind" obedience to mantra's such as "we keep what we have by giving it away", "It works if you work it", etc etc.
All of that depends on how you define christian. AA might have been based on a bible based cult-like group, but in their effort to make themselves marketable to atheists and agnostics they rejected certain christian principles and made themselves heretical to those familiar with their faiths.
None of those concepts are particular christian. "We keep what we have by giving it away" is a selfish statement. The bible teaches to give everything away expecting nothing in return. In the same light AA teaches people that they should make amends for their transgressions not because they're actually sorry for what they've done, but because somehow it'll help them to get better. Personally if somebody ever comes to me to make amends I'm going to tell them to GTFO and come back when they're legitimately sorry and not doing it as some step.
Hope that clears things up....I want it to be understood that I really do know what I'm talking about some of the time when I post on this forum.
I don't doubt that. But don't expect everybody to agree with you just because you have knowledge.
These are literally life and death things that we talk about...esp in regards to addiction and recovery.
So are any risky choices, such as smoking. Do you view addiction as a disease?
Edit: Let me also be clear in regards to my intention in this thread. I am not attacking the idea of offering an alternative to 12 steps, I am simply stating that creating documentation of the type should include suggestions and information that allows increased access to another treatment modality.
Makes sense. Either way the whole flier thing is not my baby.
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I don't doubt that. But don't expect everybody to agree with you just because you have knowledge.
Certainly not.
So are any risky choices, such as smoking. Do you view addiction as a disease?
Addiction causes measurable and lasting changes in brain chemistry and in extreme cases physical development. Depending on the drug, these changes can be extremely long lasting. In many cases cravings can be alleviated or assisted by medication. Medically assisted detox is something that is needed in cases of extreme alcoholism. Methadone is used as a long term medication for opiate addiction.
Since is has measureable side effects, clear progression of intensity, and can be treated medically (or at least medically assisted treatment) it fits with the disease model. I hope that answers the question clearly enough. If not let me know.
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Quality of life is defined by an individuals ability to fulfil what are called "ADL's". This means getting up and going to work, taking part in society, having a reasonable range of emotions (happy, sad, joyful, angry, etc), and generally feeling that they have a "life worth living".
That might be your definition, but others have a right to seek happiness as they see fit so long as it doesnt' directly affect others. You might look at a person shooting smack as a junkie and a loser. I see a person who has made certain choices and should neither be condemned or made excuses for if he harms somebody. Freedom and personal responsibility.
I've always found it amusing that the statistics of spontaneous remission and AA assisted remission are pretty similar. That's no joke....but the question of "could they have done it without AA" is sort of a moot point from my perspective.
If someone FEELS that AA helps them, then it helps them.
No. Because a person can feel that something helps them and actually have it hurt them. Take bloodletting for example. Once upon a time that was popular and people swore by it, claiming it saved their lives. Snake oil being another example. I'd have to dig for it, but there was a study done with court ordered offenders that showed that the ones who were doing the worst thought they were making great progress in recovery thanks to AA. The worse they did, the more they credited AA for saving their lives.
Just because I personally feel that AA is idiotic doesn't mean I will steer a client away from 12 step if it is somethign they want to explore.
And that's your choice. But often people getting into AA don't have full knowledge of what they're getting into. The group is rather deceptive (http://http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a2.html#ca_deceptive_recruiting) and i've confronted several AA members on this who have admitted it. They claim it's necessary in order to help people. You sound like a shrink so if you are you should be familiar with the concept of informed consent. That's one of the primary reasons I have issues with AA.
When speaking of adults, nobody forces them into an AA meeting (except court) and nobody forces them to really "get anything" out of their experience there.
Yes and no. There might be little actual force, but there's a hell of a lot of psychological pressure including but not limited to the insinuation that if you leave you'll wind up dead, insane, or in jail. Those in AA believe AA is the only way and they're not afraid to make that sound like a proven fact to outsiders. NEVER will you hear an alternative suggested in AA meetings with slogans such as "Our way or the Die way".
Here's a little writeup about that:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cul ... a_only_way (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_a1.html#ca_only_way)
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That might be your definition, but others have a right to seek happiness as they see fit so long as it doesnt' directly affect others. You might look at a person shooting smack as a junkie and a loser. I see a person who has made certain choices and should neither be condemned or made excuses for if he harms somebody. Freedom and personal responsibility.
I want to be very clear in regards to this statement. I do NOT view addicts or drug abusers as "junkie's", "losers", or anything of the type. If someone I encounter is unhappy and wants help, I will do everything in my professional and personal power to assist them in developing the tools to live a more satisfying life. My responsibility is to assist people in healing the aspects of their behaviors that cause them unhappiness or damage. My responsibility is not to apply my own morals, rules, stigma, or justifications to anything they do.
I did not find this board because I am a drug crusader, I found it because I went through the Peninsula Village program. I now work in the behavioral health field because I believe at the core of my being that compassion and ethical behavior is something that the field needs if we are going to (as a society) assist in the recovery of individuals from behavioral health concerns or addiction, or mental health, or whatever the hell you call it.
I would as soon call someone a junkie as I would call them a nigger. Both are hate filled words that damage both the accuser and the person accused.
As for the AA thing, I feel like I've derailed the thread. I agree with the majority of what you've said...I just view it from a slightly different angle.
Edit: I'm also not a "shrink". I am currently what you would call a "line staff" member. I'm also working towards a degree in social work.
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Addiction causes measurable and lasting changes in brain chemistry and in extreme cases physical development. Depending on the drug, these changes can be extremely long lasting. In many cases cravings can be alleviated or assisted by medication. Medically assisted detox is something that is needed in cases of extreme alcoholism. Methadone is used as a long term medication for opiate addiction.
So drugs causes changes in the brain. I see. That's sort of the point. So does a frying pan if you hit somebody hard enough with one. IT doesn't mean it's a disease. Part of the issue I have with the disease concept is that it labels behaviors and symptoms as diseases. How many people suffering from depression end up in AA because of the symptoms they exhibit rather than treating the root causes of why they drink to excess? How many of those people never get genuine treatment for the depression because they end up believing the depression is a symptom of their "spiritual" disease?
Since is has measureable side effects, clear progression of intensity
Progression of intensity. Really? Some such as Stanton Peele cite that as a myth (http://http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html). Sometimes progressive, of course, but it's hardly guaranteed unless a person believes themselves to be powerless and doesn't bother trying ("it's futile after all they told me in AA").
and can be treated medically (or at least medically assisted treatment) it fits with the disease model.
What medical treatment. Other than the actual alcohol dependence, which is as much a disease as poisoning is, what medical can actually be done? IT seems to me at that point a person is referred to the local AA chapter for indoctrination. I'm all for therapy and so forth for people who want it, but medical doctors shouldn't be passing off AA as some legitimate solution any more than they should be recommending snake oil.
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I did not find this board because I am a drug crusader, I found it because I went through the Peninsula Village program. I now work in the behavioral health field because I believe at the core of my being that compassion and ethical behavior is something that the field needs if we are going to (as a society) assist in the recovery of individuals from behavioral health concerns or addiction, or mental health, or whatever the hell you call it.
I totally agree, though I'm just not sure drug use is a medical issue. It might sometimes cause medical problems (cirrhosis, lung cancer from cigarettes, overdose), but the use itself I don't see as a disease and don't think it should be treated as one. I think a lot more can be gained by teaching people that they're responsible for their own choices. Who has a better chance of avoiding over-use of drugs... somebody who believes it's a choice, or somebody who believes progression is inevitable and fulfills that prophecy?
As for the AA thing, I feel like I've derailed the thread.
LOL. This is Fornits. Show me a thread that has stayed on topic all the way through.
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I didn't say that drugs cause changes in brain chemistry, I said that "addiction" causes long term changes in the way that the brain operates. This is readily apparent if you look at the MRI from a long term meth abuser during the time when they are using meth, during the 6 months after they cease to use, and during the 2-3 year period that it can take for the brain to return to "normal" functioning.
I don't understand why you seem to be taking such offense to the things I've said, but I'm certianly not trying to offend anyone.
Addiction potential (as a clinical term) is defined by a drug's interaction with the mesolimbic pathway. When I say that something causes long term changes, I am speaking of the ability of the brain to regulate its production and distribution of neurotransmitters. Crossing the line from "abuse" into "addiction" occurs when the brain can no longer regulate itself or when it becomes unable to produce a chemical. Behaviorally this results in compulsions, obsession, etc. This is why from a treatment standpoint, addiction is considered to be an obsessive disorder.
I think you are under the impression that I am some sort of staunchly anti-drug person. I'm not.
You don't like AA, I get it. I can respect that. I apologize if I said something that made you feel like I'm attacking your stance. Not sure what else to say.
Oh, and when I say medically treated (or whatever), I'm referring to things such as the use of anti-obsessional meds to help combat drug cravings, the use of benzo's (in a clinical setting) to combat life threatening DT's, open and frank use of methadone programs to treat opiate addiction on a long term basis, the use of needle exchange programs without the social stigma and demonization that occurs in America, ethical accountability to "drug docs", education for parents that want to cram their kids full of anti-depressants. Stuff like that. I also want to try and keep an open mind to the fact that psychiatric or medical assistance can mean life or death for someone that is active in their addiction.
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I didn't say that drugs cause changes in brain chemistry, I said that "addiction" causes long term changes in the way that the brain operates. This is readily apparent if you look at the MRI from a long term meth abuser during the time when they are using meth, during the 6 months after they cease to use, and during the 2-3 year period that it can take for the brain to return to "normal" functioning.
You can call that addiction if you want. I just see it as poorly understood changes in the brain.
I don't understand why you seem to be taking such offense to the things I've said, but I'm certianly not trying to offend anyone.
I'm not taking offense. Sorry if It sounded that way.
Addiction potential (as a clinical term) is defined by a drug's interaction with the mesolimbic pathway. When I say that something causes long term changes, I am speaking of the ability of the brain to regulate its production and distribution of neurotransmitters. Crossing the line from "abuse" into "addiction" occurs when the brain can no longer regulate itself or when it becomes unable to produce a chemical. Behaviorally this results in compulsions, obsession, etc. This is why from a treatment standpoint, addiction is considered to be an obsessive disorder.
There are studies going both ways on that. Personally I think a person is always responsible for their behavior no matter what.
I think you are under the impression that I am some sort of staunchly anti-drug person. I'm not.
Anti drug/pro drug isn't really the issue. It's just a difference in perception of the problem. My view like Stanton Peele's is that too much of AA's dogma has leaked into modern addiction science as fact. Dogma is widely believed and becomes folk wisdom. Folk wisdom becomes transparent accepted fact. Here's a cool chapter you might find interesting that changed my outlook on quite a few things:
http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html)
You don't like AA, I get it. I can respect that. I apologize if I said something that made you feel like I'm attacking your stance. Not sure what else to say.
I think you're interpreting my feistiness as offense or somehow being upset. It's not the case I assure you.
Oh, and when I say medically treated (or whatever), I'm referring to things such as the use of anti-obsessional meds to help combat drug cravings, the use of benzo's (in a clinical setting) to combat life threatening DT's, open and frank use of methadone programs to treat opiate addiction on a long term basis, the use of needle exchange programs without the social stigma and demonization that occurs in America, ethical accountability to "drug docs", education for parents that want to cram their kids full of anti-depressants. Stuff like that. I also want to try and keep an open mind to the fact that psychiatric or medical assistance can mean life or death for someone that is active in their addiction.
I agree with what you're saying. I think we would agree on most things, just not the philosophical underpinnings of why and to what extent substances actually control a person.
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I don't feel that people are "controlled" by a substance or an addiction, but I do believe that the negative physical and mental side effects of both addiction and withdrawal compromise an individuals ability to react in a rational manner to outside stimuli. Someone going through intense opiate withdrawal is NOT in their "right" (what a subjective term) mind.
There are other things such as the obsessional and compulsive aspects of addiction that feed into my standpoint, but I don't think they have any real bearing on this discussion.
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I just like watching the loons at AA/NA scream and moan when someone points out that their little funny farm is full of shit and that is why I started the thread way back when.