Post by: DC on January 28, 2005, 12:11:00 PM
I am writing this because I currently have a daughter who is in GT, has has been for several months. We have not experienced any of the horrors some of you talk about. While I think some of the things they do are strange, to say the least, I do not believe them to be harmful either physically or mentally. I host children in my home on a nightly basis, and not one of them has ever even hinted at any kind of abuse.
I think that the program has been cleaned up in comparrison to what it once was as indicated by other posters. But I stand by what I say and see, and I don't see anything wrong with the treatment at Growing Together. I am also in recovery and have been in 2 treatment centers myself.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 12:51:00 PM
Here is the thing..no one has to be beaten or thrown to the floor to be abused. Coersion and mind control is abuse. Forced doctrine is abusive. Forcing kids to act in a certain manner is abusive and cultish.
Mom, you are making a huge mistake. Unless your kid was shooting heroin or smoking crack and holding up liquor stores, you are making an irreversable decision that may haunt your child until the day he/she dies.
Get them the fuck out of there now.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 12:53:00 PM
Strange is a vast understatement. Free your kid from this dangerous place.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 01:00:00 PM
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening. Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today. I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time. I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken. It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives. This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see. I am not blind or dumb. Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover. For this I am sorry.
My daughter is so much better off because of GT.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 28, 2005, 01:31:00 PM
2. Has your daughter had any interruption in education? How long?
3. Has your daughter ever been denied access to radio, TV, newspapers or magazines?
4. Has your daughter ever been denied unencumbered access to a telephone to call you?
5. Has your daughter ever been denied certain grooming routines (excluding make-up) like shaving, taking care of her skin, blow drying her hair, or applying lip balm?
5. Has your daughter ever been denied privacy while using the bathroom or showering?
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 02:18:00 PM
2)No, has never had her education interupted
3)Yes, that is not such a bad thing though.Where is the abuse in that?
4)No, she was never denied because she knows that there are rules about phases and telephones. Just rules, no abuse.
5)Yes, is this what you call abuse?
6)This I can't answer because I remove myself from any situation regarding girls and bathrooms. Even if it were true, whats the big deal? The same thing happens when you are in the high school locker room.
So if these questions would determine abuse in your mind, then I know what I am dealing with. A spoiled self-centered child who is never wrong. Take the chip off your shoulder and see that the abuse you speak about is most likely history. I feel badly for you if you were abused, but these things are not happening anymore. Let it go.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 28, 2005, 03:16:00 PM
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On 2005-01-28 11:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"1)No, never been denied"
So, you can show up, perhaps in the middle of rap and take her out for an ice cream?
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So, she was allowed to attend regular school on phases 1 - 3?
2)No, has never had her education interupted
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3)Yes, that is not such a bad thing though.Where is the abuse in that?
Here's why: After being denied any media for several months, a staff member, or anyone else with sufficient "priveleges" can address the group that WW III has begun, and "we're all gonna die". Most of the group is not armed with current information to dispute this, or not be terrified. Sound far fetched? This actually happened in the program that begat GT.
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4)No, she was never denied because she knows that there are rules about phases and telephones. Just rules, no abuse.
And what exactly is this rule? Even maximum security inmates have phone priveleges from "Day One" of their incarceration.
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5)Yes, is this what you call abuse?
Maybe. Why is it a rule that someone cannot treat their adolescent skin problems? Why is lip balm contraband when your lips are bleeding? Why are guys allowed to shave their faces, but girls not allowed to shave their legs or pits?
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6)This I can't answer because I remove myself from any situation regarding girls and bathrooms. Even if it were true, whats the big deal? The same thing happens when you are in the high school locker room.
I have never seen, nor been in a locker room where it was mandated that someone stand in the stall, with the door forbidden to be closed, while another attempted to urinate or defacate. Think about the leg room you have in a public toilet. Have you ever tried to urinate or defacate while someone stood looming over you within that space?
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So if these questions would determine abuse in your mind, then I know what I am dealing with. A spoiled self-centered child who is never wrong. Take the chip off your shoulder and see that the abuse you speak about is most likely history. I feel badly for you if you were abused, but these things are not happening anymore. Let it go.
Spoiled and self centered?
How is basic grooming, access to current events, access to speak to one's parents, and the ability to take a shit in peace "self centered and spoiled"?
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 03:30:00 PM
1)Didn't want to pick her up in the middle of group and take her to have an icecream.She has responsibilities. I think I can live without the co-dependent sickness that you are implying.
2)She attended Palm Beach County School at GT. What is the big deal. Do you really think that everything that she was into that had gotten her to Gt, that it would have been a good idea to send her out to a public school? I don't.
3)no comment. Your statements regarding this question is laughable.
4)Ok, let me say this NO PHONE! That is not the end of the world and cetainly has nothing remotely related to abuse of any kind. I'm glad, before GT she spent her life on the phone.
5)Because first you must understand the premise of the program to understand this idea. They have everything taken away from them, and then they earn it back as they move on to higher phases. I have never seen a kid that was bleeding or anything else that was denied proper medical attention.
6)Have you ever been in the service?
All in all, I think I know where you are coming from. None of the concerns you listed nor the reasons which you gave for each of them describes in any manner what is going on at Growing Together. You are a fraud.
Post by: Antigen on January 28, 2005, 03:52:00 PM
I honestly don't know what's going on inside GT lately, except what you're telling us. I'd like to know more and I hope you'll hang around and talk about it even if we never come close to agreement.
Here's my take on what you've told us so far. Taken alone, none of the individual rules seems too unreasonable. No phone, no reading, school in the building, no privacy, etc. But taken together it's another matter altogether.
If you're actually married to someone who's that obsessive and controling, call the suicide hotline and tell them to keep an eye on her while you escape in the middle of the night.
If GT is anything like what Straight was, that's what your daughter would have to do in order to get to a pay phone to tell you if something bad really did happen. If GT is a lot like Straight, then she'd probably call someone else if something bad really happened because she'd know that you would report her for talking behind backs and being manipuative and send her right back to whoever were abusing her.
We only usually hear about what goes on in these very isolated groups when something really horrible happens, like rape or life threatening injury or death. The thing is, it keeps happening again and again under these same circumstances.
I'm interested in discussing those circumstances that seem to breed those overt abuses.
If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 28, 2005, 04:21:00 PM
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On 2005-01-28 12:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Your argument is ridiculous and bogus.
1)Didn't want to pick her up in the middle of group and take her to have an icecream.She has responsibilities. I think I can live without the co-dependent sickness that you are implying.
Ice cream was merely an example. Say you just happened to stop by after work and wanted to say "hi". How is that co-dependency?
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2)She attended Palm Beach County School at GT. What is the big deal. Do you really think that everything that she was into that had gotten her to Gt, that it would have been a good idea to send her out to a public school? I don't.
The big deal is that I lost enough school to have me held back a grade. Others never made it back to school at all. I had a 3.52 GPA before LIFE. Attending school was forbidden before phase 3 in LIFE - I was just wondering if things were the same.
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3)no comment. Your statements regarding this question is laughable.
Unfortunately, I have no concrete proof. We were not allowed to phone home or write about it. Do you really think anyone had a tape recorder handy? Of course it sounds insane. It WAS!
And that's another sickness of the "program" - the Confidentiality rule. Had I talked about what went on in group that day, it would have been "Talking behind backs" - a punishable offense. This may be why you don't know the half of what is going on at GT.
But since I don't give a rip about "consequences" anymore - if anyone else cares to corroborate - it was a staff member named "Jeff" that started the "you druggie scum are all going to die now" rap sometime between April - June 1984.
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4)Ok, let me say this NO PHONE! That is not the end of the world and cetainly has nothing remotely related to abuse of any kind. I'm glad, before GT she spent her life on the phone.
So that makes it okay to deny her access to any phone calls? I would think such a family oriented program would encourange kids to phone home at least once a day.
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5)Because first you mus
t understand the premise of the program to understand this idea. They have everything taken away from them, and then they earn it back as they move on to higher phases. I have never seen a kid that was bleeding or anything else that was denied proper medical attention.
I was talking about chapped lips, guy! Christ! You have to beat 'em down by denying Chap-Stick to make 'em comply? Come ON!
And why do you have to earn the right to attend your acne or shave? And why did you not answer why guys can shave and girls can't?
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Have you ever been in the service?
Nope! However, my father is very proud Marine. He'll tell you these methods are absolutely bogus.
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All in all, I think I know where you are coming from. None of the concerns you listed nor the reasons which you gave for each of them describes in any manner what is going on at Growing Together. You are a fraud."
So where am I coming from? What is going on at GT?
I never claimed to be at GT. Once again, I was in LIFE, which spawned GT. How does that make me a fraud?
Post by: DC on January 28, 2005, 04:28:00 PM
You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad. They do earn these privledges back as they progress in the program. It depends on the client as to how fast or slow the progression is. If someone is deprived of the things that the rest of us take for granted, well then welcome to the rest of the world, where most people in the world do not even own a phone or television. These kids need to know that their are consequences to their actions and if taking away certain priviledges is one of these consequences, then I have no problem with that.
I fail to see any abuse scenerio that has been brought up thus far. I will be the first to tell you that I would defend my daughter's well-being like a lion. If I thought for even a second that she was being abused, then she would be out of there. But I don't see it. I have these kids in my house every single night. I have the opportunity to discuss recovery and I also have the delight of making them laugh and seeing a different perspective of their time in GT.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 04:40:00 PM
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On 2005-01-28 13:28:00, DC wrote:
"I would like to point out that I made a joke in referring to my wife and her mind control abilities. I just think that it is not quite what the anonymous poster implied.
You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad. They do earn these privledges back as they progress in the program. It depends on the client as to how fast or slow the progression is. If someone is deprived of the things that the rest of us take for granted, well then welcome to the rest of the world, where most people in the world do not even own a phone or television. These kids need to know that their are consequences to their actions and if taking away certain priviledges is one of these consequences, then I have no problem with that.
I fail to see any abuse scenerio that has been brought up thus far. I will be the first to tell you that I would defend my daughter's well-being like a lion. If I thought for even a second that she was being abused, then she would be out of there. But I don't see it. I have these kids in my house every single night. I have the opportunity to discuss recovery and I also have the delight of making them laugh and seeing a different perspective of their time in GT."
open your eyes
http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004- ... ure_1.html (http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004-12-09/news/feature_1.html)
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 28, 2005, 04:50:00 PM
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On 2005-01-28 13:28:00, DC wrote:
"I would like to point out that I made a joke in referring to my wife and her mind control abilities. I just think that it is not quite what the anonymous poster implied.
You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad. They do earn these privledges back as they progress in the program. It depends on the client as to how fast or slow the progression is. If someone is deprived of the things that the rest of us take for granted, well then welcome to the rest of the world, where most people in the world do not even own a phone or television. These kids need to know that their are consequences to their actions and if taking away certain priviledges is one of these consequences, then I have no problem with that.
I fail to see any abuse scenerio that has been brought up thus far. I will be the first to tell you that I would defend my daughter's well-being like a lion. If I thought for even a second that she was being abused, then she would be out of there. But I don't see it. I have these kids in my house every single night. I have the opportunity to discuss recovery and I also have the delight of making them laugh and seeing a different perspective of their time in GT."
First of all, Consequences for what?
I've seen capital felons with more rights -- and they were actually convicted!
It's actually a common theme amongst these places to tell the most heinous tales of drug use and sexualiaty - even if not true - just to get the hell out!
Post by: Antigen on January 28, 2005, 04:57:00 PM
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On 2005-01-28 13:28:00, DC wrote:
You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad.
I know you were joking about your wife. Obviously, if she really were that controling, you wouldn't be able to stand it. And that's the point.
You also very likely can't understand why all those things GT takes away and takes control of are so horribly bad. Naturally, because you've never experienced it. No one does. That's why, for the past 20 years, it's been so damned hard for those of us who have experienced it to explain it in terms that others can understand.
Let me give you an example. I think this is a good paralel and something everybody's at least heard of from time to time. Every summer, especially when we get unusually intense heat in the northern parts of the country, you'll see a story or two about some idiot who left their dog or their child in a locked car for an hour or two. Now, anyone who's spent a summer and a winter in So. Florida has no fear of Hell and no desire for Heaven. They also damned well know better than to leave a living thing in a car for more than about 5 minuites in the summer. We know this because we experience the inside of a hot car pretty regularly. But we get out immediately and let the thing air out becuse it's uncomfortable.
But someone who's never experienced that kind of intensely hot weather or what it does to the inside of a closed car in as little as 15 minutes just wouldn't think it were dangerous. And if they heard of a kid complaining that their parent locked them in a car in summer for an hour in Florida, they'd laugh and think that must be one spoiled kid!
But you just try it. The only place I know of where you can experience something similar to what your daughter is likely going through is Talbott Recovery near Atlanta. Go ahead and make an apointment for an intake interview and see what happens.
Of course, I know you won't do that. But I'm trying to get you to think a little bit more about the "odd, to say the least" things about GT. Trust me, these are not just meaningless quirks, there's a method to the madness.
Here's a good article on Talbott
http://www.peele.net/debate/talbott.html (http://www.peele.net/debate/talbott.html)
The other anon poster is giving you some good practical advice. Look into research on cults and how they work. If you can think critically and independently of what the parent group would approve, maybe you'll start to put the pieces together and get an idea of the bigger picture.
The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton
Post by: DC on January 28, 2005, 05:01:00 PM
Are you honestly going to sit there and say that these kids have not put their own and other lives in jepordy because of their actions?? There are consequences to those actions. GT offers help and solutions to those kinds of problems. So does AA & NA.
My daughter was going to kill herself using, so excuse me if I don't see the peril in not letting her make a phone call, watch tv or shave her legs. You people are barking up the wrong tree. GT is not Straight or the SEED. Things are being done differently, and besides, I knew quite a few people that went to the SEED and they came out ok. I still speak to some today. You just want to find something to complain about. You should know more about the program before you start slamming it, you may end up confusing someone and in the end be responsible for thir deaths.
In the end it is all about recovery, I would suggest you let it go and let the healing begin, for your own sake.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 05:05:00 PM
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On 2005-01-28 14:01:00, DC wrote:
"What, do you think these kids are innocent when they go to a place like GT??? Consequences for drug use, behavioral, etc...
Are you honestly going to sit there and say that these kids have not put their own and other lives in jepordy because of their actions?? There are consequences to those actions. GT offers help and solutions to those kinds of problems. So does AA & NA.
My daughter was going to kill herself using, so excuse me if I don't see the peril in not letting her make a phone call, watch tv or shave her legs. You people are barking up the wrong tree. GT is not Straight or the SEED. Things are being done differently, and besides, I knew quite a few people that went to the SEED and they came out ok. I still speak to some today. You just want to find something to complain about. You should know more about the program before you start slamming it, you may end up confusing someone and in the end be responsible for thir deaths.
In the end it is all about recovery, I would suggest you let it go and let the healing begin, for your own sake.
"
I second this.......
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Posted: 2005-01-28 13:40:00 open your eyes
http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004- ... ure_1.html (http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004-12-09/news/feature_1.html)
Post by: Antigen on January 28, 2005, 05:22:00 PM
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/the8 ... shing.html (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/the8thstep-1/brainwashing.html)
The lady who hosts the8th step is a Straight graduate, but none of the material on brainwashing is about Straight or GT or any related programs. She (and a lot of the rest of us) just found it hauntingly familiar and shockingly relavent, so it's there for all to read and make of it what you will.
And this brings me to my other point. If (again with the ifs!) GT is much like Straight, you probably have some preconceived notions about people who are critical of the program. I'll warrant that some of those notions are far off base.
Kathy Moya (who hosts the8thstep) is a housewife in her 30's (unless she's hit the big 40 already) raising a small brood of incredibly normal, bright and happy kids deep in the bossom of suburban DC. You just couldn't ask for a more conservative, buttoned down example of the American Dream than her and her family.
A lot of us are like that. Some are not. My family is a little less conventional than that. My husband and I work from home at computing. He's a salaried full time employee and I do a little freelance website hosting for spare cash and in my spare time outside of being a housewife. So far, so good. My oldest is 20 and doing pretty well for herself, the youngest is still but 8 (she just thinks she's 20 sometimes!)
While our interesting little online community, based on our weird little shared history, is not anything like hegemonic. While we do have our share of "colorful" characters, we're really not all a bunch of strung out, digruntled dope fiends. Some of us are actually habitual voters who own property, pay taxes and are every bit as concerned for the welfare of our kids and communities as you are.
The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: Antigen on January 28, 2005, 05:29:00 PM
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On 2005-01-28 14:01:00, DC wrote:
I knew quite a few people that went to the SEED and they came out ok. I still speak to some today.
Excellent! Then please tell them about our Seed forum located at http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=8&2899 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?forum=8&2899)
And you might gain some insight yourself by talking to some of those folks.
You're right, they're different in many ways. They're also similar in many significant ways.
Here you have an oportunity to learn something from some of us who have been through a similar experience and now have the benefit of years to better understand it. It's up to you. You can trust the program and take your chances w/ your daughter or you can do a little due diligence and possibly save yourself and her a lot of heartache.
One bit of advice. Please don't feed the trolls! If someone comes at you w/ a lot of blind rage, just take note of the fact (because these are almost always Program graduates) and save your time and effort to address the more measured, reasoned questions and comments.
Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its
best state is but a necessary evil ---in its worst state an
intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same
miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without
government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we
furnish the means by which we suffer!
Thomas Paine, Common Sense
Post by: Antigen on January 28, 2005, 05:43:00 PM
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On 2005-01-28 14:01:00, DC wrote:
"What, do you think these kids are innocent when they go to a place like GT??? Consequences for drug use, behavioral, etc...
Drug use and bad behavior do have consequences. Health consequences, legal ones and social ones. Some of those are enjoyable (or no one would do it) and others, not so much. However, the Program is not a natural consequence of drug use or bad behavior. The Program is a system of contrived and often outlandishly harsh consequences that the kid is supposed to accept as their own doing. Do they still respond to each and every complaint with "You did the necessary things...."? And these artificial consequences are imposed by you by proxy.
Now, if you're qualified to be a host parent, then ask yourself what the heck you're paying for. What is it that the Program is doing that you couldn't, or wouldn't, do yourself?
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Are you honestly going to sit there and say that these kids have not put their own and other lives in jepordy because of their actions??
There are consequences to those actions. GT offers help and solutions to those kinds of problems. So does AA & NA.
In many cases, they have not. I don't know you or your daughter. For all I know she really was in some deep trouble and needed some kind of help. But that is, by no means, a common denominator among program clients.
What I am going to sit here and tell you is that, regardless of the risk to your daughter w/o this particular program, you must consider the risk to her from the program. There are other options. Would you get come down on in parent group if you asked staff to explain a few of those "odd, to say the least" practices and policies? Are you allowed to do that and remain in good standing?
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My daughter was going to kill herself using,
How do you know that? Do you understand that more than half of American teens have used illegal drugs by the 12th grade, going back to the `70's? Where are all the dead bodies and skidrow junkies? Are half of the people you know from highschool deadinsaneorinjail right now? No, me neither.
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so excuse me if I don't see the peril in not letting her make a phone call, watch tv or shave her legs.
I'm trying to explain it to you. Have you got any idea how many former clients have offed themselves? Did you know that the teen suicide rate went up in WPB when GT moved in? It's documented. You can look it up. There's something about it at http://thestraights.com/ (http://thestraights.com/) or you can just look up stats on suicide rates and compare w/ GT's history.
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In the end it is all about recovery, I would suggest you let it go and let the healing begin, for your own sake.
"
I'm healed, thank you. Just trying to save you the same trouble.
Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 28, 2005, 06:13:00 PM
How did you stumble upon this forum?
Post by: Antigen on January 28, 2005, 07:21:00 PM
Some things never change.
There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 07:31:00 PM
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On 2005-01-28 14:01:00, DC wrote:Darren here...your experiences parallel my parents. LIFE helped me...good luck to your family and daughter.
"What, do you think these kids are innocent when they go to a place like GT??? Consequences for drug use, behavioral, etc...
Are you honestly going to sit there and say that these kids have not put their own and other lives in jepordy because of their actions?? There are consequences to those actions. GT offers help and solutions to those kinds of problems. So does AA & NA.
My daughter was going to kill herself using, so excuse me if I don't see the peril in not letting her make a phone call, watch tv or shave her legs. You people are barking up the wrong tree. GT is not Straight or the SEED. Things are being done differently, and besides, I knew quite a few people that went to the SEED and they came out ok. I still speak to some today. You just want to find something to complain about. You should know more about the program before you start slamming it, you may end up confusing someone and in the end be responsible for thir deaths.
In the end it is all about recovery, I would suggest you let it go and let the healing begin, for your own sake.
"
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 28, 2005, 07:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-28 16:21:00, Antigen wrote:
"It's Friday night, Sarah. Where do you think DC is right now?
Thats a scary thought. I guess it didn't really dawn on me that open meetings are still going on. How sad.
The sadist cannot stand the separation of the public and the private; nor can he grant to others the mystery of their personality, the validity of their inner self...in order for him to feel his maximum power, he wants the world to be peopled with concrete manipulatable objects...
-- ERNEST BECKER, The Structure of Evil, 1968.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 28, 2005, 08:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-28 16:21:00, Antigen wrote:
"It's Friday night, Sarah. Where do you think DC is right now?
Some things never change.
Oh Holy shit... I did forget! Thank God for time!
[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-01-28 17:18 ]
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2005, 08:55:00 PM
I was in the L.I.F.E. program in the 80's for a year before going through the "6th Phase" and graduating successfully. I was PISSED and stunned when I went in, and didn't do much at first except feel REGRETFUL for things I had done to GET myself there. However, I DID start to learn some things and progressed through the Program.
Today I am in my 30's, and I feel very blessed to have been a part of that program. It helped me in MANY ways, and never was I abused in any form nor did I witness ANY abuse there ( and I visited often after completing). Yes, I had no make-up, tv, radio, etc. for months (ewww - how awful, huh?), and I didn't attend school for the first 3 months, but when I returned to high school on 3rd phase I earned honor roll for the first time! What I learned there was how to communicate my feelings, how to improve my self esteem and how to set priorities in my life. I learned to be a leader instead of a follower. I learned to be more rational in my thinking.
Was it FUN?? No -- especially not in the beginning!! Was it suppose to be FUN? No! Did I have some of the BEST times of my life once I made 6 phase?? You BET!! I have GREAT memories of dances, Proms, camping trips, etc...(with TONS of photo's to prove it) and have MANY of my best friends today are from my "program" days.
I have been to Growing Together many times (though not lately). When I was there, it was a really good program, and I don't doubt that is still is today.
Good for you that you care enough about your daughter to HELP her, instead of doing nothing. You have a BIG committment yourself to that program, and it's not easy (but nothing worth while ever is). I remember my parents going to talk to one of my friends that I was drinking with (prior to the program) because they saw in the paper she had been arrested for burglery... her mom just skipped right over the topic of treatment/programs. 6 years later (when she was 22) our local paper reported her murder the day after Halloween. She was prostituting, involved in drugs and was stabbed to death over 20 times, and left by the side of the road! I grew up with this giril from age 2 till we were 16 (and I went into the program). I wish SHE had gotten treatment (anywhere). Her killer has never been found.
As for the posts you've received here... don't think that you can change any of these people's minds with the TRUTH. They won't "go there". Most are STUCK. Sad but true.
Kim
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 28, 2005, 11:57:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 29, 2005, 12:00:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-28 17:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi DC
I was in the L.I.F.E. program in the 80's for a year before going through the "6th Phase" and graduating successfully. I was PISSED and stunned when I went in, and didn't do much at first except feel REGRETFUL for things I had done to GET myself there. However, I DID start to learn some things and progressed through the Program.
<..............
As for the posts you've received here... don't think that you can change any of these people's minds with the TRUTH. They won't "go there". Most are STUCK. Sad but true.
Kim"
different Kim
Q. I simply ask, why is PUNISHMENT the solution with regards to the narrow group of behaviors which encompass illegal drug use....?A.Pharmaceutical Business, both legal and illegal, run by the same people either way, money coming to the middle from both ends. Bush.
Bill Gallagher
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 05:26:00 AM
And you were a leader and not a follower. Says who? As far as I can see your still following the sheep that you followed beind before. Your just sad.
I hope that kid in GT does get treatment for the shit shes in the middle of right now. I hope she comes out normal after this experience. To think her own parents would sell her out to pure bull shit!
If you parents were doing inside your own homes what went on in these programs than you would be convicted of child abuse or worse. You would never see you kids again. Yet you just let other people carry on with this. You fuckers don't want kids. you just want little molds of you, or what you wish you could be, because if you have to torment your kid there is really something missing in your own life.
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 09:34:00 AM
That is your opinion/perception. Not mine.
The reason I mentioned missing 3 months of school then earning honor roll was because somebody else made an issue about kids being kept from school. I was just relaying that it did me GOOD to focus on MYSELF for a while, before doing schoolwork. Prior to the program, I was a D, F student and was looking at quitting. Now I'm a college grad., and I think the program played a big part in helping me turn it around. I remember how my best "druggie" friend did NOT graduate. I really think I would have been right there with her. (As a side note, she and I are friends again now, but have very different lives.)
As for being a follower, again- that's your take on it, and that's your right to have that opinion. But I no longer felt the need to "jump on the bandwagon" of what everyone else around me was doing. I gained a conscious. Just like this board. I'm the minority here, but I'll say my piece and without attacks or threats to others. I have no room in my life or heart for hatred, grudges or revenge. Reminds me of my teen/immature/trying to be something I was not, days when I see some of the posts here.
For me the program was not punishment. Not at all. It was a chance to start over and learn how to be a better person. For me, it worked. No need to cut me down for that, with profanity and judgement, is there?
Sara, I was in the program in 1985.
Kim
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 09:50:00 AM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 29, 2005, 09:53:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 06:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I wonder how Open Meeting and Open Meeting Review went last night. :scared: OMG, those O.M reviews!!!! :scared: :scared: "
oops, forgot to login. Gotta get used to that again! :smile:
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die
-- Malachy McCourt
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 10:17:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis.
Oh, believe me. It's vastly different.
Quote
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.
Yeah, my mom said the same thing when I was in Straight (which btw, begat LIFE which begat GT). When she found out years later what really happened in there she was devastated by guilt. You cannot say it is not happening without a doubt. You're not in there with her. You really don't know.
Quote
I am not blind or dumb.
I don't think you're dumb. I think you've been so scared by your daughter's actions that you've become an easy target for these people. It's what they COUNT on. I've been scared shitless of what my teens have done. Posted here before about some serious troubles with one of mine for a couple of years...I know the feeling. GT counts on that though. They tell you they have THE answer. They don't. No one does actually. There is no THE answer. There are many complicated answers and they can be different for everyone.
Quote
My daughter is so much better off because of GT."
Well of COURSE she is. She's in an incredibly controlled environment. She's being the good little "tame child creature". My parents thought I did "better" (and I use that term incredibly loosely) when I was in there. I was saying all the right things, being a good little straighling b/c I knew what was in store for me if I wasn't. After I got out into the real world the psychological damage that had been done to me in there really began to manifest itself. I can get over the physical abuse that I was exposed to, but the damage done to my psyche has been extremely difficult to shake. Hope to GOD your daughter doesn't suffer the same fate.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 29, 2005, 10:19:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis.
Oh, believe me. It's vastly different.QuoteBelieve me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.
Yeah, my mom said the same thing when I was in Straight (which btw, begat LIFE which begat GT). .............................
DAMN!! Did it again. :roll: That was me. :em:
You say there is but one way to worship the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
--Chief Red Jacket, Seneca Indian Chieftain
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 11:59:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 07:17:00, Anonymous wrote:And sometimes the program works like in my case and everyone is happier...including myself!! once again as long as abuse is not happening...it can work...sounds like your families program is working...best of luck!
"Quote
On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis.
Oh, believe me. It's vastly different.QuoteBelieve me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening.
Yeah, my mom said the same thing when I was in Straight (which btw, begat LIFE which begat GT). When she found out years later what really happened in there she was devastated by guilt. You cannot say it is not happening without a doubt. You're not in there with her. You really don't know.QuoteI am not blind or dumb.
I don't think you're dumb. I think you've been so scared by your daughter's actions that you've become an easy target for these people. It's what they COUNT on. I've been scared shitless of what my teens have done. Posted here before about some serious troubles with one of mine for a couple of years...I know the feeling. GT counts on that though. They tell you they have THE answer. They don't. No one does actually. There is no THE answer. There are many complicated answers and they can be different for everyone.Quote
My daughter is so much better off because of GT."
Well of COURSE she is. She's in an incredibly controlled environment. She's being the good little "tame child creature". My parents thought I did "better" (and I use that term incredibly loosely) when I was in there. I was saying all the right things, being a good little straighling b/c I knew what was in store for me if I wasn't. After I got out into the real world the psychological damage that had been done to me in there really began to manifest itself. I can get over the physical abuse that I was exposed to, but the damage done to my psyche has been extremely difficult to shake. Hope to GOD your daughter doesn't suffer the same fate."
D.
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 12:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis. Remember, I am there now.
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening. Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today. I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time. I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken. It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives. This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see. I am not blind or dumb. Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover. For this I am sorry.
My daughter is so much better off because of GT."
sorry, but your just an asshole.
The mind control your wife gives you? Other than being a sissy boy, does your wife lock you up, beltloop you to the bathroom, force you to stand in front of groups of people and get screamed at?
If you claim GT is "saving lives" like so many other TCs have claimed with their empty annecedotal 'success ratios", then link us to a published study on the succes ratio.
If you can't, blow it out your arse...along with the little dimenishing comments you make to dismiss the very real torture those kids are forced to go under.
Now, go take a spanking from your wife...
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 12:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-28 13:28:00, DC wrote:
You know, I cannot for the life of me understand why the things that GT takes away from a kid is so bad.
Try to imagine your state of mind at age 16, then put yourself under total control of a large group that insults her, strips her of her identity and self worth.
come to think of it, don't. You don't have the cognizant reasoning ability to understand what you have subjected your kid to. Just be prepared to deal with it for the next 40 years.
Post by: Antigen on January 29, 2005, 02:07:00 PM
Usually, anyway. Most parents don't do these things sadistically, I don't think.
That's not at all what Program restrictions are all about!
First there's the intake. That's disorienting enough. Most kids who land up there do not want or believe they need any kind of psyche treatment. But they're coerced and/or cajoled into signing a paper that says they do.
Next comes the strip search (which they don't even do in jail intakes, only prison for convicts and psyche wards in some extreme cases)
Next, you're introduced to Group, by some joker who tells these lies you've signed your name to to the Group (you may not argue) and then the Group shouts, in unison, "Love ya, Joe!". Better get used to it. Except for Open Meeting night and the host homes, these are the only faces you will be seeing, the only voices you will be hearing for an indeterminate amount of time.
Maybe a few of the following details have changed, but I'd bet good money that most have not. For the forseeable future, you will have not one moment alone. You will not step out for some air and some time to think. You will not lose yourself in reading or watching a tv show. You cannot call your friend, your brother or your mom or grandma when you really need to hear a friendly voice. You will not be permitted to speak freely to anyone but your oldcomer. And your oldcomer is required to keep you completely occupied w/ Program dogma and to correct you and report you if you choose to speak with them in any way contrary to that. You will not know if your cousin who shipped out to Kuwait last year has come home or if he's been killed. You wouldn't know if we went to war with yet another country nor if there was a catastrophic storm that wiped out your home or if your parents sold your home and moved.
None, nada, absolutely NO contact or information from outside those four walls! No reference points. No natural checks on what you're being told and what you're being required to talk about. Only Group, staff and (so long as they behave themselves) your host parents.
At the same time, you're not getting enough sleep. You never catch up, ever. Everybody's addled and tired and jumping through their own assholes to do more and be "positive" about it. That's the only way out, except by a well planned escape or violence.
It's a far cry from the kind of grounding any parent could or would do to their kid. When you give your kid a restriction, you want it to make sense and be fair and for the kid to stop and think sensibly about something. When you isolate and disorient a kid, you don't want them thinking critically. You want them addled and vulnerable so that they'll accept a new belief system w/o any critical thought.
Here's a good list of writing on the topic of brainwashing; how it works, why it works and why it's a really evil thing to do to anyone, especially under the pretense of love and therapy.
http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.html (http://www.rickross.com/brainwashing.html)
How often have you (GT dad) heard something along the lines of "Well, these kids need a little brainwashing!" ?
No matter how sure you are that the new belief system is better than her old one, you should understand the process by which she's being made to adopt it and any future consequences.
For a peek into some of the potential consequences, just take a look around these forums a bit. You'll find that our new friend "D"'s perception of the Program is atypical.
I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain.
--Gene Roddenberry, Creator of Star Trek
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 03:10:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 29, 2005, 03:45:00 PM
Eventually it came to the point where we absolutely couldn't tolerate some of the kinds of trouble that she was bringing home where her two younger sisters lived. If it had been just us, we would have gladly taken a lot more bullshit. After all, she is our daughter and we love her that much. But we couldn't allow our other kids to pay the price for her poor judgement.
So we drew the proverbial line in the sand; keep these people away from our house, get them to stop calling at all hours of the night and make a stand against psycho boy with regard to threatening our lives or pack up and move out.
She said she'd make it stop, but she didn't pack and move. Instead, she snuck out in the middle of the night. I guess it was a combination of not being able to tell us to our faces that she prefered the company of thugs and the romantic allure of running away as opposed to the more mundane scenario of a peaceful, orderly change of address.
Even then, we didn't wait w/ baited breath for her demise. We knew better. Most kid who get into trouble actually do survive. And most white ones actually survive w/o a criminal record. Better still when it's a girl (provided she's smart enough not to get set up by a boyfriend)
Eventually, she grew up a little and got really tired of the reality that was left after the novelty and illusion wore thin. When she wanted it, we helped her get out. We were willing to buy her a bus ticket anywhere she wanted and we had always made that clear. She wanted to come home. And so she did, leaving the whole sordid ordeal behind.
When she got here, she went right back to her old friends, who she hadn't been allowed to talk to as long as she was Peewee's bitch (about 4 years) Some of those kids settled down and are living well now. Some are still chasing pills, beer and trouble. She hasn't shunned any of them, but hasn't followed anyone into trouble either.
It's been an amazing experience for me. After awhile, I started to recognize the similarities between Program control methods and those employed by this abusive boyfriend of hers. And I should note here that the boyfriend is not particularly smart or anything. He's just doing what he learned growing up in his parents' house.
Now that she's out of that mess for a couple of years, it's really remarkable to see how she's learned the same lessons and life skills as the Program promises to teach and proponants attribute to it.
One very prescient poster to these forums once noted that "The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.
Having viewed this situation from so many different perspectives now, I'm inclined to think she nailed it dead on.
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 04:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis. Remember, I am there now.
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening. Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today. I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time. I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken. It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives. This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see. I am not blind or dumb. Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover. For this I am sorry.
My daughter is so much better off because of GT."
sorry, but your just an asshole.
The mind control your wife gives you? Other than being a sissy boy, does your wife lock you up, beltloop you to the bathroom, force you to stand in front of groups of people and get screamed at?
If you claim GT is "saving lives" like so many other TCs have claimed with their empty annecedotal 'success ratios", then link us to a published study on the succes ratio.
If you can't, blow it out your arse...along with the little dimenishing comments you make to dismiss the very real torture those kids are forced to go under.
Now, go take a spanking from your wife..."
Well! Spoken like a true, well-balanced healthy adult. I want to take my advice from YOU! (NOT) :scared:
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 05:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 13:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-29 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis. Remember, I am there now.
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening. Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today. I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time. I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken. It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives. This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see. I am not blind or dumb. Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover. For this I am sorry.
My daughter is so much better off because of GT."
sorry, but your just an asshole.
The mind control your wife gives you? Other than being a sissy boy, does your wife lock you up, beltloop you to the bathroom, force you to stand in front of groups of people and get screamed at?
If you claim GT is "saving lives" like so many other TCs have claimed with their empty annecedotal 'success ratios", then link us to a published study on the succes ratio.
If you can't, blow it out your arse...along with the little dimenishing comments you make to dismiss the very real torture those kids are forced to go under.
Now, go take a spanking from your wife..."
Well! Spoken like a true, well-balanced healthy adult. I want to take my advice from YOU! (NOT) :scared: "
It's amazing to me how you skip right over well thought out, intelligent posts and shoot right to the flamebait!!! It's much easier to defend your position that way. :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 05:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 12:45:00, Antigen wrote:wow that sounds great...i am glad it worked out for your family...but what if all your attempts didnt work(my parents tried what you tried). what if by being with this guy she got aids? overdosed on those drugs she used with the asshole boyfriend? all that time you gave her to find her way something really bad could have happened...it happens everyday...you see some parent on the news after there teen dies by drugs, or kills someone else"i thought he would grow out of it". it is a horror story you hear all the time...my parents, i think, were proactive in there approach. they didnt want to take the chance or whether it would happen or not...they wanted it to stop before they lost me to death, disease, jail or anything else. heck i might have never gone beyond the cursing them out or stealing booze, or blacking out at friends parties or driving drunk...by why risk it?
"Actually no. When my kid did that I didn't pitch her out and wait for her to kill herself. I certainly worried about the risks she was taking. But, in all honesty, I thought it was a lot more likely that she'd wind up taking a legal fall for her psycho boyfriend. And it turned out that that was unwarranted worry too. When it actually came down to it, she testified truthfully.
Eventually it came to the point where we absolutely couldn't tolerate some of the kinds of trouble that she was bringing home where her two younger sisters lived. If it had been just us, we would have gladly taken a lot more bullshit. After all, she is our daughter and we love her that much. But we couldn't allow our other kids to pay the price for her poor judgement.
So we drew the proverbial line in the sand; keep these people away from our house, get them to stop calling at all hours of the night and make a stand against psycho boy with regard to threatening our lives or pack up and move out.
She said she'd make it stop, but she didn't pack and move. Instead, she snuck out in the middle of the night. I guess it was a combination of not being able to tell us to our faces that she prefered the company of thugs and the romantic allure of running away as opposed to the more mundane scenario of a peaceful, orderly change of address.
Even then, we didn't wait w/ baited breath for her demise. We knew better. Most kid who get into trouble actually do survive. And most white ones actually survive w/o a criminal record. Better still when it's a girl (provided she's smart enough not to get set up by a boyfriend)
Eventually, she grew up a little and got really tired of the reality that was left after the novelty and illusion wore thin. When she wanted it, we helped her get out. We were willing to buy her a bus ticket anywhere she wanted and we had always made that clear. She wanted to come home. And so she did, leaving the whole sordid ordeal behind.
When she got here, she went right back to her old friends, who she hadn't been allowed to talk to as long as she was Peewee's bitch (about 4 years) Some of those kids settled down and are living well now. Some are still chasing pills, beer and trouble. She hasn't shunned any of them, but hasn't followed anyone into trouble either.
It's been an amazing experience for me. After awhile, I started to recognize the similarities between Program control methods and those employed by this abusive boyfriend of hers. And I should note here that the boyfriend is not particularly smart or anything. He's just doing what he learned growing up in his parents' house.
Now that she's out of that mess for a couple of years, it's really remarkable to see how she's learned the same lessons and life skills as the Program promises to teach and proponants attribute to it.
One very prescient poster to these forums once noted that "The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.
Having viewed this situation from so many different perspectives now, I'm inclined to think she nailed it dead on.When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
"
Post by: Antigen on January 29, 2005, 05:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 14:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
...by why risk it?
Because I had learned, though hard knocks, about the risks inherent in the Program. I've found that the entire troubled parent industry seems to rely on this same trick of slight of mind.
What they're selling is a safe alternative to life's pitfalls. Parents, not only pay piles of money, but dedicate time and emotional investment; sever friendships and close relationships, alter their financial plans, relocate, even divorce in pursuite of this safe and effective alternative that the Programs offer.
But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method.
It sure would be nice if such a panacea existed. And I understand completely why people want to believe in it. But I just don't think it exists. I think there's a serious down side to this treatment modality and no one should enter into it, far less force their kids into it, w/o fully informed consent.
And none of these programs that I've found ever goes to the trouble of making sure the parent or kid fully understands the process. That's sort of a catch 22. If you understand how it works, it won't work.
I think that's largely why I wasn't as affected by my time in Straight as some people. It's not that I'm brilliantly intelligent or strong or anything. It's just that I was thoroughly familiar w/ Program culture and norms before intake. Where most kids were completely shaken and disoriented by it, I was right at home with it. I knew just what to expect and how to dodge the worst blows.
For the community to have 10% to 25% of its men unable to vote or unable to access credit or other privileges of citizenship for the rest of their lives in some states creates a permanently diminished
group within society.
Jeremy Travis, Urban Institute
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 07:53:00 PM
But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method.
Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.
anyway...i can agree to disagree...from experience. i also hope that parents continue to seek help if they need it, because doing nothing can be deadly! :skull:
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 07:53:00 PM
But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method."
Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.
anyway...i can agree to disagree...from experience. i also hope that parents continue to seek help if they need it, because doing nothing can be deadly! :skull:
Post by: GregFL on January 29, 2005, 08:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 13:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-29 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-28 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"In all do respect, I think that the mind-control you speak about is no different at Growing Together than the mind control I receive from my wife on a daily basis. Remember, I am there now.
Believe me, if I thought my daughter was being abused i would pull her, but I know, without doubt that this is not happening. Maybe that is the way it used to be, but not what I see today. I know some of the counselors there and even attend meetings with them from time to time. I know what kind of people they are, and you are mistaken. It is terrible when given a forum, people would say many hurtful and terrible things about something that is saving lives. This may not be a popular statement on this board, but I know what I see. I am not blind or dumb. Many times the people so full of rage and bad blood are the people who haven't or cannot recover. For this I am sorry.
My daughter is so much better off because of GT."
sorry, but your just an asshole.
The mind control your wife gives you? Other than being a sissy boy, does your wife lock you up, beltloop you to the bathroom, force you to stand in front of groups of people and get screamed at?
If you claim GT is "saving lives" like so many other TCs have claimed with their empty annecedotal 'success ratios", then link us to a published study on the succes ratio.
If you can't, blow it out your arse...along with the little dimenishing comments you make to dismiss the very real torture those kids are forced to go under.
Now, go take a spanking from your wife..."
Well! Spoken like a true, well-balanced healthy adult. I want to take my advice from YOU! (NOT) :scared: "
well, if you do or don't, be sure to ask your wife first!
:grin:
Post by: Antigen on January 29, 2005, 08:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.
Therapeutic[sic] Community. Based on methods used by Chuck Deiderich in his Synanon Church (before the attempted murder convictin) and propagated w/ NIDA support funding ever since.
Here's NIDA's definition.
http://165.112.78.61/ResearchReports/Th ... .html#what (http://165.112.78.61/ResearchReports/Therapeutic/Therapeutic2.html#what)
It's the method employed with minor variation by The Seed, Straight, LIFE, Growing Together, SAFE in Orlando, Operation Par, Daytop, Phoenix Institute and a whole lot of other quack rehabs.
So what you're telling me is that you know nothing, not even the name, of the treatment modality used at GT.
Come back when you understand it and see if you still think it's a good idea.
Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
- Patrick Henry
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 08:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
""What they're selling is a safe alternative to life's pitfalls. Parents, not only pay piles of money, but dedicate time and emotional investment; sever friendships and close relationships, alter their financial plans, relocate, even divorce in pursuite of this safe and effective alternative that the Programs offer.
But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method."
Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.
anyway...i can agree to disagree...from experience. i also hope that parents continue to seek help if they need it, because doing nothing can be deadly! :skull: "
So can ignorance of who and what you turn your children over to. Suicides occur during TC treatment, and LIfe was a direct descendent of the seed/straight vodoo formula of adolescent treatment.
I hope people that need help seek it also. I also hope parents become informed and stop seeking abusive cure alls to life's troubling questions.
I know TC graduates that die all the time. There is no magical formula, and coercision, thought control and forced cultic drug rehab more often harms than it helps.
These are observable facts. Guys like this father more often than not will not listen.
I feel for your kid and I hope one day you two will be able to put this behind you. Maybe not.
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 10:17:00 PM
"But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method."
So these people continue to blame their past circumstances. Well, I think that's a FAT excuse. As an adult it's their OWN RESPONSIBILITY to own their issues and seek the appropriate counseling, treatment, or whatever to DEAL and COPE with their issues. For GOD'S SAKE - STOP blaming others and circumstances and be a responsible adult. People do it ALL the time, it CAN and SHOULD be done.
Seriously. Do yourselves a favor and get the help you need instead of endless postings on web site/message boards.
I am NOT disregaurding any "abuse" that may have occurred (in a program, at home, in a relationship, WHATEVER), but continuing to be a VICTIM is getting you NO WHERE.
(Sorry--- but I REALLY feel passionate on this topic!)
Post by: GregFL on January 29, 2005, 10:29:00 PM
Hell, you post here. Are you a victim?
Save your speech. What antigen was referring to was the vast number of people that have and are telling their stories of abuse and broken homes related to their time in TC treatment, and the obviously ones that come here with problems relating to it.
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 10:35:00 PM
from looking at it, it doesn't appear that anyone is screaming abuse there?!
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 10:50:00 PM
Tell me, why no pics of the big haired one or her daughher? Was she ashamed of having her pic taken?
Post by: Antigen on January 29, 2005, 10:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 19:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
So these people continue to blame their past circumstances.
Actually most of them don't. I'm not just talking about the rageful trolls. I'm talking about all of us. I don't consider myself a victim. I'm a warrior, honey! I would never have taken an interest in the Program if they (DFAF and their cronies) hadn't taken such an avid and enduring interest in public policy.
Your parents may have put you in LIFE of their own accord. Or maybe, like so many others, they were given an ultimatum from juvenile court. When my daughter was 16 and acting up, I had a Broward County Sheriff officer advise me to just make a false assault complaint against her so that they could arrest and charge her so that they could "help" her. I'd looked into JIF (Broward County's Juvenile Intervention Facility) and to local publicly funded, court mandated programs like Spectrum.
I've seen the progression from when The Seed was sort of a hippy love cult cum old tyme revival to where local law enforcement was doing active recruiting, and in just as underhanded a way as I remembered. So I realized that it wouldn't be long at all before parents had NO choice in the matter.
Trust me on this one, if nothing else. I'm far from disabled and perfectly willing to do my civic duty by these people. Just tell Mickey that I fully apreciate what she's done and am only trying to return the favor; to help keep her straight. :wave:
What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2005, 11:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 17:27:00, Anonymous wrote:Are you saying that the MAJORITY(over half...heck i would be impressed by 30 or 40%) of people(teens or whomever)that graduate a program like the one i attended(LIFE/STEP) kill themselves or have other issues more so than a person who is messed up with drugs, the law, etc.?
"Quote
On 2005-01-29 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
""What they're selling is a safe alternative to life's pitfalls. Parents, not only pay piles of money, but dedicate time and emotional investment; sever friendships and close relationships, alter their financial plans, relocate, even divorce in pursuite of this safe and effective alternative that the Programs offer.
But I know that it's not safe. Just look around these forums. Some people never recover from the program. Many, many wind up worse off wrt emotional issuse and substance abuse than before the Program. Many, many wind up w/ AIDS, Hep C, criminal records and other troubles, in addition to PTSD and crushingly low self esteem as a result of the confrontational TC method."
Being a LIFE/STEP stepper i am not familiar with the TC method.
anyway...i can agree to disagree...from experience. i also hope that parents continue to seek help if they need it, because doing nothing can be deadly! :skull: "
So can ignorance of who and what you turn your children over to. Suicides occur during TC treatment, and LIfe was a direct descendent of the seed/straight vodoo formula of adolescent treatment.
I hope people that need help seek it also. I also hope parents become informed and stop seeking abusive cure alls to life's troubling questions.
I know TC graduates that die all the time. There is no magical formula, and coercision, thought control and forced cultic drug rehab more often harms than it helps.
These are observable facts. Guys like this father more often than not will not listen.
I feel for your kid and I hope one day you two will be able to put this behind you. Maybe not.
"
someone please link me to the stats from an objective body of analysts.
Post by: Antigen on January 30, 2005, 12:40:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
Are you saying that the MAJORITY(over half...heck i would be impressed by 30 or 40%) of people(teens or whomever)that graduate a program like the one i attended(LIFE/STEP) kill themselves or have other issues more so than a person who is messed up with drugs, the law, etc.?
someone please link me to the stats from an objective body of analysts."
Yes. That's what I'm saying. But no formal organization tracks results in this industry. Don't you think that's strange? I mean, with normal education, public and private schools generate mountains of stats and test scores to keep their accredidation as merely adequate at what they're supposed to be doing. Medical professionals and facilities delegate significant time to charting and documentation details unrelated to direct patient care simply for the purpose of learning from their mistakes and successes.
But the troubled parent / drug rehab industry doesn't do that. The only kind of research they'll spring for is that which supports their notions of how horrifying normal adolescence and/or drug use is. When the research comes up showing results contrary to their foregone conclusions, they ignore it, misrepresent it, disparage the authors and then come up with a shill like Enoch Gordias to conduct mock research to support their position.
So the best indications we have are things like Project Match (funded by NIDA, burried by same) and our own experience.
I've found out what happened to a lot of people I used to know. The ones I know about who went through the program are deadinsaneorinjail, with a few exceptions. The ones who I was told would end up that way generally are not.
But do your own research. Make up a private list of the people you remember from the program and those who were your friends or who were notorious heads prior to the program. Look them up. Do your own assessment of how things have gone for them. Do your own math. It's not scientific research, but it's a good reality check and a way to get a ballpark figure.
Or just call Mickey up and ask her for a list of clients who were in when you were. See how far that gets ya.
And remember that NObody who's parents decided that they met enough of "the signs" and who had access to proper funding was ever turned away. I'd never been an addict and had spent the prior two years in Straight before I shocked them all and split from staff trainee and they spent two hours trying to get me to sign myself in anyway.
Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its
best state is but a necessary evil ---in its worst state an
intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same
miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without
government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we
furnish the means by which we suffer!
Thomas Paine, Common Sense
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 02:36:00 AM
How about those sick baby killers who volunteered to join the armed services and will be returning home to your neighborhood?
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 30, 2005, 07:43:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 19:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
" How about that site that was posted about here many months ago: http://www.lifereunion.com (http://www.lifereunion.com)
from looking at it, it doesn't appear that anyone is screaming abuse there?!"
No one's screaming anything there! Look at all the action lifereunion.com has been getting!
:grin:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 30, 2005, 07:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 23:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How about those of us who were in abusive (non sexual) Catholic schools?
How about those sick baby killers who volunteered to join the armed services and will be returning home to your neighborhood?"
Abuse can happen in any venue. Now, see, I personally went to a Catholic School, and suffered no abuse. But I remember thinking back then that some of the tactics used on other kids were pretty harsh, and therefore, I would never subject my own kid to it. I've been to some Catholic primary schools in my adulthood - very tame now. Or tamed for my presence - who knows for sure?
I saw the military fuck up a few people... or was it VietNam - who knows for sure?
The point is that unless the things that are wrong with something get fixed, it just keeps on being wrong.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 30, 2005, 09:43:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-29 20:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
Are you saying that the MAJORITY(over half...heck i would be impressed by 30 or 40%) of people(teens or whomever)that graduate a program like the one i attended(LIFE/STEP) kill themselves or have other issues more so than a person who is messed up with drugs, the law, etc.?
someone please link me to the stats from an objective body of analysts."
Here's some anecdotal evidence from my family. My daughter swears some day she's going to write about this. I married another grad. We had two kids before we divorced after 3 years. He then married an avid AAer. My dad married another parent who had two graduated kids. My (former)best friend for years was a grad who still to this day has not had a drink or gotten high. She married a grad. Out of those 6 grads (myself, my ex, my step brother and sister, friend and her husband) ALL of us either are or have been screwed up PROFOUNDLY for years. My ex and I have been diagnosed with PTSD. The ex got a DUI manslaughter (the kid who dies happened to be another grad out drinking that night separate from my ex) and has been in and out of prison and rehab. My friend has lost almost every significant relationship in her life (including her sister and me), can't figure out if she's gay or not. Her husband has now been diagnosed a "sex addict" :roll: by one of the Anonymous groups. My step sister has been married about 4 times, is overbearingly controlling of her son and in general isn't very well like because of her confrontational personality she honed in the program. My step brother is just OFF. I mean OFF. Extremely overbearing on his kids (who by the way are now rebelling like hell against it). And me...well, I've been scared and depressed for a looooooooooooong time. Floundered around for years, believed that I was the cause of all my families problems, got hooked on prescription drugs etc. etc. My father and I don't speak...haven't for about 5 years now. He and his wife and my ex-in laws would haul me into court every so often threatening to take my kids just to "keep me on the straight and narrow". My ex and his wife would do that too whenever he would go back to AA. My family stucture was forever altered and NOT for the positive. These are all GRADUATES. ALL OF THEM. My daughter at 17 picked up on the absurdity of it at her young age. When she discovered that all of those people I mentioned who were very much a part of her life when she was young were all in the program, it kind of fell into place for her. She understood then how much damage had been done to us in there. It helped to explain some of the really hurtful actions of the people that she loved so much.
Those are the grads that I have personal, intimate experience with. There are so many from my program that aren't even here to talk about it. They ARE dead from suicide.
A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
Ludwig Von Mises
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 11:26:00 AM
And ALL of these problems, are 100% stemmed from a year or two of a program?? Nothing prior to your program expeience, and nothing AFTER plays into ANY of these adults making these decisions and choices?? I mean, what you posted CERTAINLY sounds like a mess, and I'm sorry for that, but it BLOWS MY MIND that you wanna lay it ALL on the experience from the program.
How many years has it been since you've been there?! One thing I DID learn at the program was to OWN my OWN actions, and decide what to do. Many decide to CONTINUE making the same kinda decisions over and over, and expecting different results.
Now maybe if you were brainswashed and tortured at your program, and you were just out a month ago, or 6 months ago, or even a YEAR, I'd be a little more empathetic. But aren't we talking YEARS? Even DECADES?? Everyone CHOOSES how to confront or deal with their issues, baggage, or dysfunctionalities. Blaming Straight, Life, GT just ain't gonna help anyone.
I sincerely hope the people in your life look for and find a way to conquer their "stuff", and find more good out of life. We ALL have our difficult times in life. Several years ago, I lost a VERY close loved one (accident). I believe that is one of the WORST experiences we must go through in life. We have a choice of how to deal with that and our feelings. Go drink, drug, whatever, or find a healthy way to process. Though I had times I felt like staying in bed for DAYS, I got through with the help of family and friends and let myself cry, and process. We ALL have choices and FREE WILL to make our OWN decisions.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 30, 2005, 11:48:00 AM
I'm not blaming the problems in my life on the program, I'm blaming them for setting me up to deal with those problems in a fucked up way. I'm blaming them for taking my father away from me and my kids grandfather away from them. I'm blaming them for the mindfuck they gave me in there that left me empty. I'm blaming them for the mindfuck they did on my mother when she dared to question their practices.
Doesn't it strike you as the least bit odd that ALL of these people who were supposed to be "helped" and fixed by the beloved program are all, every one really fucked? I mean they are graduates after all. They've been pronounced "successful" by Mel and Betty. I know quite a few grads. Some have remained sober since getting out, some not but every one...EVERY ONE has some pretty heavy duty psychological damage. Every one of those people I mentioned in my earlier post have been diagnosed with either PTSD or something similar and the diagnosing professionals DO attribute it DIRECTLY to their exposure to the little cult. That's not to say that other things didn't add to the damage, but the ability to deal with those normal life experiences has been severely perverted. THAT comes straight from MY diagnosing psychologist.
BTW...did you check out that link I sent you too? What were your thoughts?
The right of self-defense is the first law of nature . . and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
--St. George Tucker, in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 30, 2005, 11:50:00 AM
I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2005, 11:55:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 08:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Cayo,
And ALL of these problems, are 100% stemmed from a year or two of a program??
The point again flies over your head.
THESE PROGRAMS DO NOT WORK. People fail at roughly the same rate whether they go thru a tc program or not.
In addition, they harm people and break up families.
Why support a broken promise, a failed system that requires locking people up and breaking them down, when there is no evidence anything of value comes from it?
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 30, 2005, 12:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 08:50:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"One more thing. When your ENTIRE SUPPORT SYSTEM is made up of program thinking people or the aftermath of, it's very difficult to truly have free will. If I questioned anything, I was out of my family. That's a very powerful weapon
So is having to live under the constant threat that if you do something that your family considers to be stepping outside the lines of the program way of thinking, you're going to be dragged into court, yet again, to prove that you're not an unfit mother.
The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind.
--Marquis de Sade, French libertine
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 12:10:00 PM
wonder how much he's getting paid to tell ya that! :roll:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 30, 2005, 12:14:00 PM
Quote
wonder how much he's getting paid to tell ya that!
Not even a fraction of how much the program got paid to pronounce me an "addict" and keep me locked up for two years. :roll: :roll:
Applying computer technology is simply finding the right wrench to pound in the correct screw.
--Bastard Administrator
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 30, 2005, 12:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 09:14:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"Quotewonder how much he's getting paid to tell ya that!
Not even a fraction of how much the program got paid to pronounce me an "addict" and keep me locked up for two years. :roll: :roll:Applying computer technology is simply finding the right wrench to pound in the correct screw."
--Bastard Administrator
Which, btw, was done with a rubber stamp from a psychiatrist who NEVER EVEN MET ME. Yet his signature appeared on my "treatment plan" as having diagnosed me as an "addict".
And now the liberals want to stop President Reagan from selling chemical warfare agents and military equipment to Saddam Hussein and why? Because Saddam 'allegedly' gassed a few Kurds in his own country. Mark my words. All of this talk of Saddam Hussein being a 'war criminal' or 'committing crimes against humanity' is the same old thing. LIBERAL HATE SPEECH! and speaking of poison gas... I SAY WE ROUND UP ALL THE DRUG ADDICTS AND GAS THEM TOO!
--Rush Limbaugh, November 3, 1988
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 12:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 08:55:00, GregFL wrote:I am evidence...maybe thats why i have such a hard time accepting some of the crap that some of you say. i have a great life and it worked for me and my family...so every time one of you says...it doesnt work or tells me the majority of people who go through it fail miserably at life or commit suicide or whatever without any stats, i have a hard time believeing...i went to thestraights.com and read all the suicides...but dont you think that maybe the lives of these people(some not all) were horrible before the program or maybe they had mental illness etc....i do however see the problem in a parent not having the child tested for mental illness or a psych evaluation done before just putting there kid in a program...thats wrong!...my parents spent years testing me for everything just to see if i was ok mentally...when i was ok then they determined that something else had to be done.
"Quote
On 2005-01-30 08:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Cayo,
And ALL of these problems, are 100% stemmed from a year or two of a program??
The point again flies over your head.
THESE PROGRAMS DO NOT WORK. People fail at roughly the same rate whether they go thru a tc program or not.
In addition, they harm people and break up families.
Why support a broken promise, a failed system that requires locking people up and breaking them down, when there is no evidence anything of value comes from it?
"
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 30, 2005, 12:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 09:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
""THAT comes straight from MY diagnosing psychologist."
wonder how much he's getting paid to tell ya that! :roll: "
A psychologist has standards to live up to, and rules that govern him/her by the APA. The psychology community has rules and guidelines by which to diagnose and treat, and they have to abide by those rules. Money isn't a deciding factor in a diagnosis, the criteria in the DSM is.
Becoming a psychologist takes years of education and peer review. One does not become a psychologist by being a parent, or hanging out a shingle and being self-appointed.
Think about it, if a self appointed "teacher" showed up at your kid's school, with no credentials, wouldn't you have a problem with that?
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 30, 2005, 12:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 09:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
...but dont you think that maybe the lives of these people(some not all) were horrible before the program or maybe they had mental illness etc....
Of course I don't deny that people may have had other problems or actual mental illnesses...that's part of this whole problem. WTF do you think a program does to people who already do have these problems???? These places advertise themselves as pretty much a 'one stop shopping, fix-all" for almost anything. I saw kids in there that were absolutely mentally ill. Seriously, clinically out there. But the program can fix anything, right?? Those are some of the kids that haunt my memory to this day.
The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
--John Adams, U.S. President
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 12:32:00 PM
I said that!
D.
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 12:36:00 PM
what about this...why did it work for me and my family but not one other person that ever went through the program? am i the only one? hey that makes me a pretty special guy! :grin:
D.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 30, 2005, 01:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I am evidence...maybe thats why i have such a hard time accepting some of the crap that some of you say. i have a great life and it worked for me and my family...so every time one of you says...it doesnt work or tells me the majority of people who go through it fail miserably at life or commit suicide or whatever without any stats, i have a hard time believeing"
what about this...why did it work for me and my family but not one other person that ever went through the program? am i the only one? hey that makes me a pretty special guy! :grin:
D."
Yeah, maybe you are. Maybe it was good for you, who knows?
It is quite possible that there was some window of sanity in LIFE/STEP when you were there, and things were not bad at all.
Darren, I knew and dated a guy who went thru the ranks of another TC, in fact I first met him when he was on staff there, but I never made the connection twelve years ago.
Fast forward ten years later - this guy is totally reliant on "structure" and "groups". He's in a "group" for everything - Weight Watchers (even though he's been at a healthy weight for over a year), AA, NA, a tobacco quitters group (he hasn't smoked in two), and some charities. Not that this is a bad thing - but the guy can't FUNCTION without a group!
The point is, the TC that he was in, which shall remain nameless, but is a direct Synanon offshoot, totally destroyed this guys capacity to function on his own volition. He was 29 when he went in. Hell, I remember him making a call to his Overeaters Anonomous buddy before we made dinner reservations one night!
I really do hope things are different for you, and that you've learned to think for yourself. Like I've said before, I really hope when your little cherubs sass back for the first time, you don't fall into that slippery slope that that is the gateway to deadinsaneinjail, and make a decision that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2005, 01:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I am evidence...maybe thats why i have such a hard time accepting some of the crap that some of you say. i have a great life and it worked for me and my family...so every time one of you says...it doesnt work or tells me the majority of people who go through it fail miserably at life or commit suicide or whatever without any stats, i have a hard time believeing"
what about this...why did it work for me and my family but not one other person that ever went through the program? am i the only one? hey that makes me a pretty special guy! :grin:
D."
You are not the only one. i Believe that the program is ineffective, and that people like you just believe the lie, that the program saved you.
I think it was in you all the while..to succeed. It was in me too and I did...beyond my wildest imagination. However, the program threw a stumbling block in my path and gave me additional issues to deal with.
Drugs were bad for me. I did more after the program but had more issues piled on top.Many graduated get weighed under by the additional baggage of broken families and diagnosed "powerlessness" they learn in the program, combined with feelings of diminshed self worth and isolation.
Is there anyway you understand or are open to this?
I have no doubt the program point marks a turning point in your life. If that is the case, you probably would have done just fine
Post by: Antigen on January 30, 2005, 02:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 09:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
""i do however see the problem in a parent not having the child tested for mental illness or a psych evaluation done before just putting there kid in a program...thats wrong!...my parents spent years testing me for everything just to see if i was ok mentally...when i was ok then they determined that something else had to be done."
I said that!
D."
See, now you read that as the way to do it right. I read it as classic quack medicine. Your parents went from expert to expert trying to find a problem and each one confirmed that you didn't have any significant problem. So they kept shopping till they found somebody to take their money and tell them what they wanted to hear.
That's how cancer patients wind up shooting up sharrk cartilage. And that's fine. If they believe it may help, everybody should be free to follow their own judgement. But we're all free to publicly scrutinize any service that's offered for sale.
That's how the free market works. After awhile, the bogus stuff shakes out. We no longer let blood as a cure for whatever ails you because we have a better understanding of health and medicine. I think the TC model will go the way of the leech doctors. Who knows, there may be some legitimage use for the TC model that will stand the test. They do still use leaches in medicine. Just not the way they used to. And probably very rarely w/o the fully informed consent of the patient.
I honestly don't think that the way GT is doing things can stand much scrutiny. But we'll see.
The law in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread - the rich as well as the poor
--Anatole France
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 08:55:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-30 08:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Cayo,
And ALL of these problems, are 100% stemmed from a year or two of a program??
The point again flies over your head.
THESE PROGRAMS DO NOT WORK. People fail at roughly the same rate whether they go thru a tc program or not.
In addition, they harm people and break up families.
Why support a broken promise, a failed system that requires locking people up and breaking them down, when there is no evidence anything of value comes from it?
"
It is my belief that the program "the steps" work IF you want them to and choose to apply them. I choose to, and it's worked for me (like it or not).
As for family , both my parents remaned married and well (45 years now), my sister's married 12 years (first marriage), and I for 7 years (first marriage).
It's NOT black and white!
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 30, 2005, 04:31:00 PM
Quote
It is my belief that the program "the steps" work IF you want them to and choose to apply them. I choose to, and it's worked for me (like it or not).
As for family , both my parents remaned married and well (45 years now), my sister's married 12 years (first marriage), and I for 7 years (first marriage).
It's NOT black and white!"
No, it's not. I think that's what everyone's been trying to say. Shit has happened, and shit is still allowed to happen.
I just hope you're not guaging "success" in how long a marriage lasts. Some marriages last a long time simply because there will be hell to pay if one or the other wants out.
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 04:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 10:12:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-30 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I am evidence...maybe thats why i have such a hard time accepting some of the crap that some of you say. i have a great life and it worked for me and my family...so every time one of you says...it doesnt work or tells me the majority of people who go through it fail miserably at life or commit suicide or whatever without any stats, i have a hard time believeing"
what about this...why did it work for me and my family but not one other person that ever went through the program? am i the only one? hey that makes me a pretty special guy! :scared:
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 04:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 11:55:00, Antigen wrote:actually..it goes deeper than that...speech impediment early on was investigated for neurological issues...but then we went to a minister for behavior...another psychologist for behavior...tough love was implemented and then i went for the gusto...just not coming home for extended periods...not bathing...not caring...alchohol....nonstop fighting...my life was a mess by the time i was a junior in high school. they did the homework...my parents dont make rash decisions and i think the program was a last resort.
"Quote
On 2005-01-30 09:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
""i do however see the problem in a parent not having the child tested for mental illness or a psych evaluation done before just putting there kid in a program...thats wrong!...my parents spent years testing me for everything just to see if i was ok mentally...when i was ok then they determined that something else had to be done."
I said that!
D."
See, now you read that as the way to do it right. I read it as classic quack medicine. Your parents went from expert to expert trying to find a problem and each one confirmed that you didn't have any significant problem. So they kept shopping till they found somebody to take their money and tell them what they wanted to hear.
That's how cancer patients wind up shooting up sharrk cartilage. And that's fine. If they believe it may help, everybody should be free to follow their own judgement. But we're all free to publicly scrutinize any service that's offered for sale.
That's how the free market works. After awhile, the bogus stuff shakes out. We no longer let blood as a cure for whatever ails you because we have a better understanding of health and medicine. I think the TC model will go the way of the leech doctors. Who knows, there may be some legitimage use for the TC model that will stand the test. They do still use leaches in medicine. Just not the way they used to. And probably very rarely w/o the fully informed consent of the patient.
I honestly don't think that the way GT is doing things can stand much scrutiny. But we'll see.The law in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread - the rich as well as the poor
--Anatole France
"
bingo....i had a relationship with my folks...actually my whole family would come to open meetings...people who i never even talked to...it was great to see how many people cared...i felt supported. intake to 7th step was about a year and a half.
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 10:59:00, GregFL wrote:i might have...but then i might not and that...to me...would have been worse than the program...i took what the program taught me and used what i needed...thats what helped...i didnt agree with everything that was said or done but i dont think i believe a lie...i think that the program was right for me at that time in my life...maybe the timing was right. i am taking an open mind to how you all feel ...i just cant relate to the horrors/paying for the program for the rest of my life mentality...i have shown no ill effects....and i still use some of the tools.
"Quote
On 2005-01-30 09:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I am evidence...maybe thats why i have such a hard time accepting some of the crap that some of you say. i have a great life and it worked for me and my family...so every time one of you says...it doesnt work or tells me the majority of people who go through it fail miserably at life or commit suicide or whatever without any stats, i have a hard time believeing"
what about this...why did it work for me and my family but not one other person that ever went through the program? am i the only one? hey that makes me a pretty special guy! :grin:
D."
You are not the only one. i Believe that the program is ineffective, and that people like you just believe the lie, that the program saved you.
I think it was in you all the while..to succeed. It was in me too and I did...beyond my wildest imagination. However, the program threw a stumbling block in my path and gave me additional issues to deal with.
Drugs were bad for me. I did more after the program but had more issues piled on top.Many graduated get weighed under by the additional baggage of broken families and diagnosed "powerlessness" they learn in the program, combined with feelings of diminshed self worth and isolation.
Is there anyway you understand or are open to this?
I have no doubt the program point marks a turning point in your life. If that is the case, you probably would have done just fine"
Post by: GregFL on January 30, 2005, 07:22:00 PM
Now, open up to what happened to your fellow Inductees. Many feel betrayed and harmed by the program. Many others felt that way then but have overcome it.
There is a reason..open your mind and heart to how some of those techniques could really damage a fragile teenage spirit and ego.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 31, 2005, 09:59:00 AM
Quote
i still use some of the tools."
What tools are those?
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 31, 2005, 10:04:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-30 13:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
It is my belief that the program "the steps" work IF you want them to and choose to apply them. I choose to, and it's worked for me (like it or not).
Nope. No program dogma here. Nope. Not at all.
:lol: :lol:
Quote
As for family , both my parents remaned married and well (45 years now), my sister's married 12 years (first marriage), and I for 7 years (first marriage).
What does that have to do with the price of dope in Amsterdam???
Quote
It's NOT black and white!"
That's the ONE statement you and I can agree on.
If you believe that people cannot be trusted to govern themselves,
then can they be trusted to govern others?
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 03:48:00 PM
I know the comment I made about my wife and mind-control got alot of play....but it was a joke. So for all the small minded and simple thinking people who had to comment on that 1 liner, well I just feel sorry for you.
In the end, it is unfortunate that there is not a 100% guaranteed method of dealing with addiction, but that is a fact. While I believe there are many paths to recovery, I know that we made the right choice in making our path through GT.
Again, thank you for your thoughts, and GOD bless you all, even the stupid ones.
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 03:58:00 PM
Seems you have bitten on that "powerless" lie pretty hard yourself...
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:01:00 PM
Quote
I know my daughter extremly well, and know that she has not been either physically or mentally abused.
I doubt it...
Quote
Again, thank you for your thoughts, and GOD bless you all, even the stupid ones.
And we appreciate idiots like you coming here as well.... :tup:
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:02:00 PM
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:05:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 12:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"recovery for 16 years, eh?
Seems you have bitten on that "powerless" lie pretty hard yourself...
"
Took the words right outta my mouth!! :nworthy:
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:02:00, DC wrote:
"I do have power friend, over my attitude and my actions. GOD laughs when we make plans."
and I laugh at your belief in an all-seeing, all-knowing invisible sky primate. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:15:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:17:00 PM
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:18:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:02:00, DC wrote:
"I do have power friend, over my attitude and my actions.
You've also got power over alcohol. You've got the power to choose to pick it up or not. Quite simple when you think about it.
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:21:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:05:00, DC wrote:
"I really feel sorry for a mindless, cynical, mean-spirited person like you. I hope you get some help."
Hey, I hear they give discounts at growing together. Maybe I can go hang with your daughter. Maybe then 10 years from now we can joing the same survivor support group.
:idea:
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:24:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:21:00, DC wrote:
"That is covered in "My actions""
EXACTLY!!!! So what more "help" do you need?
Step 1. DON'T DRINK (if you feel it's a problem, if not then slam away)
Step 2. When in doubt refer to Step 1.
See? very simple
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 04:27:00 PM
Quote
In the end, it is unfortunate that there is not a 100% guaranteed method of dealing with addiction, but that is a fact.
And I have grave doubts your daughter has an addiction...but it is clear her dad is an stepcraft junkie.
Which is fine, until you start locking people up in dangerous cults, even your own children, for "their own good".
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 04:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:02:00, DC wrote:
"I do have power friend, over my attitude and my actions. GOD laughs when we make plans."
and I laugh at your belief in an all-seeing, all-knowing invisible sky primate. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: "
Ah, com'n, his god is probably "the group", not some monkey in the sky....
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:32:00 PM
I'm sorry for your experience, now you need to let it go. It sucks that the world just doesn't care.
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 04:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:21:00, DC wrote:
"That is covered in "My actions""
Nope, your powerless. You have a disease. Its not your fault, really. You need help. YOu need to be locked up, escorted to take a dump, screamed in your face, and rationed food and sleep, and told when and what to think, denied any comfort or solice of your family until you earn it.
It really is for your own good...Now, if you just sign right here, well let you out after three days if you don't like it.
Its just a couple days..Trust us...honesty is the most important rule..we would never lie about this.
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:34:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 04:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:32:00, DC wrote:
"I would like to say that I do not know what a a "stepcraft junkie", is. And I really resent you saying that you doubt if my daughter has an adiction. As if you would know. You people are so sick and uninformed.
I'm sorry for your experience, now you need to let it go. It sucks that the world just doesn't care. "
And I resent you locking your daughter up in a dangerous group rooted in cults that shave their head and bang tambourines, put snakes in people's mailboxes, and believe they have "powers of instant awareness".
What exactly is she addicted to? Fresh air and freedom?
Give the girl her medicine for shits sake. Do it now before she hates you forever.
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:32:00, DC wrote:
"I would like to say that I do not know what a a "stepcraft junkie", is.
Look in the mirror my friend.
Quote
And I really resent you saying that you doubt if my daughter has an adiction. As if you would know.
He didn't say he knew, he said he doubted
Quote
You people are so sick and uninformed.
:rofl: :rofl:
Quote
I'm sorry for your experience, now you need to let it go. It sucks that the world just doesn't care. "
Ahhhh, but that's changing every day. People ARE starting to care. :wave:
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 04:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:34:00, DC wrote:
"That is not how things are done anymore. Are you not listening?"
And I am calling bullshit on you. There are many Seed/straight/Life type stories rolling out of that cheap Seed ripoff down there.
In every Seed TC ripoff like straight and GT, there are many people closing their eyes and denying everything that goes on and refusing to believe they have turned their kids over to treatment modality rooted in shame.
Inform yourself.
:wstupid:
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:43:00 PM
You have NO knowledge of adolecents and addiction nor do you understand anything about addiction. Your posts show your ignorance. For you to resent me for putting my daughter in GT is as stupid as anything anyone has ever said to me. My life and my daughter's life have nothing to do with your excuses for being a failure. I feel sorry for you.
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
"In every Seed TC ripoff like straight and GT, there are many people closing their eyes and denying everything that goes on and refusing to believe they have turned their kids over to treatment modality rooted in shame. "
"Inform yourself."
You are bitter and there is nothing anyone could say to you, because your mind is made up and it is closed. I have told you my experience, and you come back with "I don't understand". I tell you I understand and its the same stupid pissing contest.
So good luck to you, may some kind of higher power guide you. Try not to give up on life.
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:43:00, DC wrote:
"Ok, I guess the only reason you are posting is to try and aggravate me. It will not work. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You have NO knowledge of adolecents and addiction nor do you understand anything about addiction. Your posts show your ignorance. For you to resent me for putting my daughter in GT is as stupid as anything anyone has ever said to me. My life and my daughter's life have nothing to do with your excuses for being a failure. I feel sorry for you."
I for one, don't resent you. I pity you, laugh at YOUR ignorance, but resent you?? :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 04:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:51:00, DC wrote:
Try not to give up on life.
"
Why the hell would I do that??? I fucking LOVE my life. :wave:
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 04:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:43:00, DC wrote:
You have NO knowledge of adolecents and addiction nor do you understand anything about addiction. Your posts show your ignorance. For you to resent me for putting my daughter in GT is as stupid as anything anyone has ever said to me. My life and my daughter's life have nothing to do with your excuses for being a failure. I feel sorry for you."
I know far more about GT than you do you moronic sperm donor. In addition, I have sucessfully debated many an "addiction specialist" that buys into the same lies you do.
I have been thru addiction treatment and I am watching my mother die of her inability to control her impulses right as we speak. I have studied extensively the AA fraudulent addiction theory and have interviewed and talked to Hundreds of kids and adults that have been thru treatment.In addition, I know people on national boards of TC treatment facilities and even yes, am friendly with a director of a synanon spinoof program and have debated the effectivness of his treatment model at his desk.
Failure...Me? hehehe you just have no fucking idea, do you? I am far more sucessfull than you will ever hope to be, and I have a son 22, getting ready to go into graduate school (paid by his loving self employed father I might add), and a daughter age 15. I would cut my nuts off before I ever did to them what you are doing to your kid right now.
You sir, are not only the failure, you lack the cognitive ability to listen and learn by other's experiences.
Now, begone you pimple on the ass of humanity. I am busy planning my next trip out of the country and don't have time to engage your silly attempts at intellectual discussion.
One day you will wish you listened to us ex Seed/straight/GT inductees here.
Heed that warning..
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:56:00 PM
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 04:59:00 PM
You are in need of some serious psychological help. AA fraud? You are an imposter. The only way you can feel value is to talk about how smart you are and how stupid everyone else is.
Your reply was so sick and twisted, I wonder if I am speaking to some kind of psychotic. I only came here to post my experience. That is all.
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 05:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:56:00, DC wrote:
"And where are your credentials for being so knowledgeable? I have told you what experience I have, but you hide behind an "Anonymous Poster" moniker, slamming everything and every point. What is your experience, who are you? Did you ever step one foot in GT? Do you know, I mean personally know anyone who has gone there in the past year? Everything you say is devalued, unless you can prove you speak from knowledge instead of stupidity. People like you are dangerous."
Dippy, That post was not "anon". Look again. Also, learn to use the quote function. It really isn't hard.
If you want to know more about me, spend about 30 hours or so looking thru my posts here and in the SDF. I have been here since before this forum even existed.
Consult your "higher power". Maybe he/she/the group can help you thru this.
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 05:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:59:00, DC wrote:
"Greg,
You are in need of some serious psychological help. AA fraud? You are an imposter. The only way you can feel value is to talk about how smart you are and how stupid everyone else is.
Your reply was so sick and twisted, I wonder if I am speaking to some kind of psychotic. I only came here to post my experience. That is all."
That and to call people stupid and devalue them by suggesting they need help because they don't buy into your justifications for locking your kid up in a dangerous cult.
Suggested reading for you "flowers in the attic".
"parden me sir...but your an asshole".
Ferris bullers day off.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 31, 2005, 05:09:00 PM
You also never answered just how you happened to stumble in here anyway?
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 05:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:56:00, DC wrote:
"And where are your credentials for being so knowledgeable? I have told you what experience I have, but you hide behind an "Anonymous Poster" moniker, slamming everything and every point. What is your experience, who are you? Did you ever step one foot in GT? Do you know, I mean personally know anyone who has gone there in the past year? Everything you say is devalued, unless you can prove you speak from knowledge instead of stupidity. People like you are dangerous."
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. :lol:
I've been through one of these mind rape mills.
It's only devalued by you and I could really give a shit what you think.
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 05:09:00 PM
No, you are too important to speak to anyone that has a different OPINION than you, I must remind you that I am speaking from EXPERIENCE.
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 05:10:00 PM
:lol:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 31, 2005, 05:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 14:09:00, DC wrote:
"I stand by my origional ussumption, you are sick and psychotic. Who cares if you have been posting since day 1, all that means is that you have been spewing your sickness for a long long time.
No, you are too important to speak to anyone that has a different OPINION than you, I must remind you that I am speaking from EXPERIENCE."
Yeah, we are too. Been there, done that. Oh, and for what it's worth, I'm a couple of continuing education classes from a "Certified Addictions Counselor" - I decided to study real science instead.
Survey SAYS: ITS NOT A DISEASE!
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 05:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 14:09:00, DC wrote:
"I stand by my origional ussumption, you are sick and psychotic. Who cares if you have been posting since day 1, all that means is that you have been spewing your sickness for a long long time.
No, you are too important to speak to anyone that has a different OPINION than you, I must remind you that I am speaking from EXPERIENCE."
SO AM I FUCKER!!!!! :lol: :lol:
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 05:24:00 PM
While I posted before that there are many paths to recovery, I hope you go into your profession with an open mind instead of you already know-it-all-itness.
Post by: DC on January 31, 2005, 05:25:00 PM
That is rich and knowing and knowledgeble. Its ok you are important.
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 05:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 14:24:00, DC wrote:
"So sorry that you do not believe addiction is a disease.
Why on earth would you be sorry about that??
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 31, 2005, 05:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 14:24:00, DC wrote:
"So sorry that you do not believe addiction is a disease. That is your belief, I have mine.
While I posted before that there are many paths to recovery, I hope you go into your profession with an open mind instead of you already know-it-all-itness."
It's not belief, guy - it's science. There have been people TRYING their DAMNDEST to prove the emotional "disease" theory for years, and it can't be done.
Science is worthless unless you have an open mind.
Now here's something that's been proven over and over again - The treatment methods that make these TCs "Cult Like" ARE DAMAGING. It's been proven.
Yeah, just like you'll have one brain scan abnormal in the brain of an alcoholic, you'll have one person actually thrive in a TC. But science is based on replication. If you can't replicate a study, you've just disproved it.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 31, 2005, 05:32:00 PM
People have given you a lot of reading material. Have you even glanced at it?
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 05:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 14:25:00, DC wrote:
""SO AM I FUCKER!!!!! "
That is rich and knowing and knowledgeble. Its ok you are important. "
Aww shucks. Well ain't you sweet but I'm already aware of how important I am. :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 05:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 14:32:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"DC
People have given you a lot of reading material. Have you even glanced at it?
"
:nworthy: :nworthy:
Now THERE'S a question I'd like an answer to!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 05:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
and I laugh at your belief in an all-seeing, all-knowing invisible sky primate. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: "
Man, I've been hanging out at Fark too much lately. :lol: :lol:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 31, 2005, 05:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 14:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
and I laugh at your belief in an all-seeing, all-knowing invisible sky primate. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: "
Man, I've been hanging out at Fark too much lately. :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 05:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 14:47:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
or here?
http://www.whitehouse.org/dof/index.asp (http://www.whitehouse.org/dof/index.asp) :nworthy:
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 05:55:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 06:42:00 PM
Here is the problem as I see it. Our 16 year in treatment "success" DC sperm donor slams his kid in a rehab with a horrible reputation for abuse.
recent press.... http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004- ... ature.html (http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004-12-09/feature.html)
he comes to this website, where people here personally know the founders of not only growing together, but the founders of the predecessor programs to this seed spinoff. In addition, to a man and woman we have had to "motivate" and endure all the other humiliations that his daughter is doing right as we speak. Maybe right now they are screaming in her face and telling her how worthless and doomed she is without GT, swinging their arms wildly thru the air wishing for their turn to rip her teenage ego to shreds. Maybe they are talking about what a slut she was "on the streets".
Who knows? Certainly not our sperm donor "success" we got posting here.
He ignores ex-staff and ex-client posting here about abuse and commonality of modality with Straight, Inc. but instead proceeds to do what people have been doing since the seed days...belittle and dismiss the charges of abuse and poke fun at people who endured abuse at the hands of these places, call their arguments ridiculous and bogus and laughable. Then he fakes indignant when people respond to being called idiots and in need of treatment.
my dad used to smugly say My sister and I needed our brains washed. Maybe you feel the same about your daughter. Maybe you just get off on the extreme control you now have over her life.
DC, what a schmuck you are. You come into our arena without an ounce of dignity or respect for the people here nor none apparently for your daughter being held captive. You obviously had closed your mind long before you ever posted the first word here.
I pity your poor daughter and understand what she is going thru. One day when she asked why you did it you will be unable to claim ignorance. You have been duly warned.
Post by: Antigen on January 31, 2005, 06:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 14:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
and I laugh at your belief in an all-seeing, all-knowing invisible sky primate. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: "
Man, I've been hanging out at Fark too much lately. :lol: :lol:
"
Bellis loves Fark!
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-- Robert Heinlein
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 09:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 07:04:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-30 13:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
It is my belief that the program "the steps" work IF you want them to and choose to apply them. I choose to, and it's worked for me (like it or not).
Nope. No program dogma here. Nope. Not at all.
:grin:
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 09:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 15:42:00, GregFL wrote:kinda sucks being in the minority huh?
"Okay, Im home from my office.
Here is the problem as I see it. Our 16 year in treatment "success" DC sperm donor slams his kid in a rehab with a horrible reputation for abuse.
recent press.... http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004- ... ature.html (http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004-12-09/feature.html)
he comes to this website, where people here personally know the founders of not only growing together, but the founders of the predecessor programs to this seed spinoff. In addition, to a man and woman we have had to "motivate" and endure all the other humiliations that his daughter is doing right as we speak. Maybe right now they are screaming in her face and telling her how worthless and doomed she is without GT, swinging their arms wildly thru the air wishing for their turn to rip her teenage ego to shreds. Maybe they are talking about what a slut she was "on the streets".
Who knows? Certainly not our sperm donor "success" we got posting here.
He ignores ex-staff and ex-client posting here about abuse and commonality of modality with Straight, Inc. but instead proceeds to do what people have been doing since the seed days...belittle and dismiss the charges of abuse and poke fun at people who endured abuse at the hands of these places, call their arguments ridiculous and bogus and laughable. Then he fakes indignant when people respond to being called idiots and in need of treatment.
my dad used to smugly say My sister and I needed our brains washed. Maybe you feel the same about your daughter. Maybe you just get off on the extreme control you now have over her life.
DC, what a schmuck you are. You come into our arena without an ounce of dignity or respect for the people here nor none apparently for your daughter being held captive. You obviously had closed your mind long before you ever posted the first word here.
I pity your poor daughter and understand what she is going thru. One day when she asked why you did it you will be unable to claim ignorance. You have been duly warned. "
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 31, 2005, 09:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 18:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-31 07:04:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-01-30 13:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
It is my belief that the program "the steps" work IF you want them to and choose to apply them. I choose to, and it's worked for me (like it or not).
Nope. No program dogma here. Nope. Not at all.
:grin:
"
What?? What works for you? Dude, there's about 3 or 4 posts that you quoted in there. Which one were you referring to?
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
--Bruce Lee
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 31, 2005, 09:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 18:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quotekinda sucks being in the minority huh?"
On 2005-01-31 15:42:00, GregFL wrote:
"Okay, Im home from my office.
Here is the problem as I see it. Our 16 year in treatment "success" DC sperm donor slams his kid in a rehab with a horrible reputation for abuse.
recent press.... http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004- ... ature.html (http://www.newtimesbpb.com/issues/2004-12-09/feature.html)
he comes to this website, where people here personally know the founders of not only growing together, but the founders of the predecessor programs to this seed spinoff. In addition, to a man and woman we have had to "motivate" and endure all the other humiliations that his daughter is doing right as we speak. Maybe right now they are screaming in her face and telling her how worthless and doomed she is without GT, swinging their arms wildly thru the air wishing for their turn to rip her teenage ego to shreds. Maybe they are talking about what a slut she was "on the streets".
Who knows? Certainly not our sperm donor "success" we got posting here.
He ignores ex-staff and ex-client posting here about abuse and commonality of modality with Straight, Inc. but instead proceeds to do what people have been doing since the seed days...belittle and dismiss the charges of abuse and poke fun at people who endured abuse at the hands of these places, call their arguments ridiculous and bogus and laughable. Then he fakes indignant when people respond to being called idiots and in need of treatment.
my dad used to smugly say My sister and I needed our brains washed. Maybe you feel the same about your daughter. Maybe you just get off on the extreme control you now have over her life.
DC, what a schmuck you are. You come into our arena without an ounce of dignity or respect for the people here nor none apparently for your daughter being held captive. You obviously had closed your mind long before you ever posted the first word here.
I pity your poor daughter and understand what she is going thru. One day when she asked why you did it you will be unable to claim ignorance. You have been duly warned. "
Again, WHAT?? This doesn't even make any sense. What minority?
668: The Neighbor of the Beast
--Anonymous Postman
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 09:23:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 09:27:00 PM
Nope. No program dogma here. Nope. Not at all.
dogma shmogma...for some folks it made there life better.
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 09:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 13:43:00, DC wrote:
"Ok, I guess the only reason you are posting is to try and aggravate me. It will not work. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You have NO knowledge of adolecents and addiction nor do you understand anything about addiction. Your posts show your ignorance. For you to resent me for putting my daughter in GT is as stupid as anything anyone has ever said to me. My life and my daughter's life have nothing to do with your excuses for being a failure. I feel sorry for you."
AMEN! Most of these lost souls here have NO life, so they attempt to intrude on you and your's by being the KNOW IT ALL on "treatment, etc. Ain't it SAD?! Very unhealthy, LOST souls.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on January 31, 2005, 09:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 18:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
Nope. No program dogma here. Nope. Not at all.
dogma shmogma...for some folks it made there life better."
That's part of the problem. You don't care how it "works" (not that I believe it does but for arguments sake). You regurgitate the same shit they feed you day after day after day and have NO FUCKING CLUE as to the consequences. Unfortunately at some point your daughter will find out what those are. It's OK though, we'll be here when she needs us.
If God has spoken, why is the world not convinced?
--Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 09:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 18:32:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:DC,,,the gloom and doom folks dont want you to know that it might work for your family...they really hate the way the treatment is given but hey it did work for me! although i still have a problem using the quote feature on the board that could be a result of the program...i'm not sure. :wave:
"Quote
On 2005-01-31 18:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
Nope. No program dogma here. Nope. Not at all.
dogma shmogma...for some folks it made there life better."
That's part of the problem. You don't care how it "works" (not that I believe it does but for arguments sake). You regurgitate the same shit they feed you day after day after day and have NO FUCKING CLUE as to the consequences. Unfortunately at some point your daughter will find out what those are. It's OK though, we'll be here when she needs us.If God has spoken, why is the world not convinced?
--Percy Bysshe Shelley, English poet
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 09:50:00 PM
GREG - your tasteless langauge, and need to "boost yourself" in your posts is a MAJOR turn off , and leads me to discredit most of what you say.
I wouldn't brag about posting on this site for YEARS. Not exactly something to note on your resume. Exactly WHAT has it accomplished (other than make YOU feel like you are some EXPERT)?
DO you use the same attitude and language with your kids? If so, I'm sure they're as "successful" as you are.
Funny how all these kids that were PLACED in a treatment center (their parents HAD reason), then couldn't cut it there, or managed to "survive" it, then suffer from PTSD and who knows what else.... THESE are the people I'm suppose to take advice from??? Or feel like they're out to HELP the children of the world?? (shaking head)
GOD BLESS YOU ALL!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2005, 09:52:00 PM
<
[/quote]DC,,,the gloom and doom folks dont want you to know that it might work for your family...they really hate the way the treatment is given but hey it did work for me! although i still have a problem using the quote feature on the board that could be a result of the program...i'm not sure. :wave: "
[/quote]
ROFLMAO!!!!!!! Me too! And my typo's - by GOD, I think that all started because I was in one of these programs too! Yeah --- THAT'S the ticket!!
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 10:46:00 PM
neither of you realize your precious Life and GT programs stole virtually all their techniques from a goofy cult where the "leader" was said to have a magical gift of "instant awareness" with the inductees working feverishly to gain this "gift".
Yep, you guys sure are bright! Thanks for graciously sharing your groundbreaking insights with us.
What would we do without your very unique perspectives and body of knowledge.
::bigsmilebounce:: :grin:
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 10:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 18:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
Funny how all these kids that were PLACED in a treatment center (their parents HAD reason), then couldn't cut it there, or managed to "survive" it,
90% of us graduated our respective programs in good standing. Many of us were on staff.
You really continue to paint yourself in a corner with all your incorrect suppositions.
Post by: GregFL on January 31, 2005, 10:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 18:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
I wouldn't brag about posting on this site for YEARS. Not exactly something to note on your resume. Exactly WHAT has it accomplished
You will never understand because you won't get the calls in the middle of the night or the letters, because you are too self absorbed to "get it".
Don't you need to go write a check to the torture's of your daughter? Maybe right now as we speak she is getting some "come down on you" therapy.
Make sure the checks don't bounce...wouldn't want her to lose the precious "peer pressure therapy" she is getting by 16 year old high school drop outs.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 12:02:00 AM
Quote
"Ok, I guess the only reason you are posting is to try and aggravate me. It will not work. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You have NO knowledge of adolecents and addiction nor do you understand anything about addiction. Your posts show your ignorance. For you to resent me for putting my daughter in GT is as stupid as anything anyone has ever said to me. My life and my daughter's life have nothing to do with your excuses for being a failure. I feel sorry for you."
Quote
AMEN! Most of these lost souls here have NO life, so they attempt to intrude on you and your's by being the KNOW IT ALL on "treatment, etc. Ain't it SAD?! Very unhealthy, LOST souls."
What's sad is this theme keeps coming up: "You post here, you have no lives, you have no jobs, you have no _________" And we keep asking you where you got this information, but you never answer, you just keep on going on about our sad, unhealthy lives.
Intrude on you? This is a "Survivors Board. Many of us have survived and survived well. Why don't you take your "get a life" attitude down to your local Synagogue and tell them Hitler was a hero?
Post by: Antigen on February 01, 2005, 01:22:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 18:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"i'm willing to bet that you wonderful and happy people are in the minority of people who went through a program and now have found it soooo reprehensible that you discuss it on a website...just my opinion."
Really? How much and how do we prove it out? If you're willing to go w/ peer reviewed scientific study as a bet settler, I'll take that bet any day!
You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein
Post by: Antigen on February 01, 2005, 01:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-01-31 18:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It is my belief that the program "the steps" work IF you want them to and choose to apply them. I choose to, and it's worked for me (like it or not).
Nope. No program dogma here. Nope. Not at all.
dogma shmogma...for some folks it made there life better."
I got a pet rock in my pocket that does the same thing for me. And my granny had her rosary.
Anything works if you believe it!
I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 01:57:00 AM
Just stare at it and all good that happens to you afterward is attributed to the magic blue dot.
Just take a look at just a few of the thousands of "magic blue dot" testimonies.
"I stared at the magic blue dot and received a check for $200 in the mail"
tennessee
"I was lost, but After the dot came into my life, I gave up drugs"
tampa
"I stared at the blue dot for 10 minutes and won the lottery"
New york
"without the Magic blue dot, I would be deadinsaneorinjail"
sarasota.
The magic blue dot rules! But you have to stare. Merely glancing won't do it. You must WORK the dot.
:tup:
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 09:33:00 AM
http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=DS00340 (http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=DS00340)
Alcoholism
By Mayo Clinic staff
Overview
"Alcoholism is a chronic, often progressive disease that can be fatal. The condition involves a preoccupation with alcohol and impaired control over alcohol intake. You may continue to abuse alcohol despite serious adverse health, personal, work-related and financial consequences. Alcoholism usually involves physical dependence on the drug alcohol, but genetic, psychological and social factors contribute to this addiction."
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 10:08:00 AM
This is from CENAPs website, another corporation with a huge stake in defining Alcoholism as a disease...
If alcoholism is defined as a disease, it will be treated as a healthcare problem. As a result, alcoholics will be assured the right to receive appropriate medical treatment for this disease. The treatment of Alcoholism will be covered by health insurance and other health care financing plans in both the public and private sectors. The appropriate health care groups will be mobilized to support its treatment. And, most importantly, ongoing biomedical research which relates alcoholism to other diseases will be funded.
"If alcoholism is not defined as a disease, we will be making the decision that it does not rightfully belong within healthcare. Alcoholics, then, will be denied access to vital healthcare services. Insurance and other health care financing plans will exclude alcoholism. Alcoholism, which is responsible for 30% of all inpatient hospital days and nearly 50% of emergency room visits, will be divorced from the medical field. As a result it will never be fully integrated into our health care system."
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 10:11:00 AM
Quote
http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=DS00340 (http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=DS00340)
Alcoholism
By Mayo Clinic staff
Overview
"Alcoholism is a chronic, often progressive disease that can be fatal. The condition involves a preoccupation with alcohol and impaired control over alcohol intake. You may continue to abuse alcohol despite serious adverse health, personal, work-related and financial consequences. Alcoholism usually involves physical dependence on the drug alcohol, but genetic, psychological and social factors contribute to this addiction.""
You might want to re-read that second paragraph as well. To some camps, ANY use qualifies as "Abuse" and that is totally incorrect. Are you going to tell me that a glass of wine with dinner makes one an Alcoholic?
The problem with programs like Straight/LIFE/GT, etc - is that very few, if any kids in there have true addictions. You can't treat an addiction that does not exist, and furthermore, it takes educated, licensed, clinical staff to treat addictions - not a roomful of scared kids shouting insults at you.
As far as alcoholism as a "disease" goes, there is a lot of opposing literature on the subject. Compulsion is not a disease - it's merely a symptom of something else going on.
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 10:15:00 AM
Schaler, J.A. (1988, October 25). Alcoholism is not a disease.
The Washington Post, Letters to the Editor, p. A26.
It is unfortunate that the House of Representatives recently voted to overrule a Veterans Administration policy calling alcoholism ''willful misconduct'' [''House Votes to Restore Benefits to Alcoholic Veterans,'' Oct. 18]. Contrary to the claim that this is an important victory for all recovering alcoholics, it is first and foremost a victory for the alcoholism treatment industry and a defeat for scientific medicine.
Ironically, on April 20, 1988, the U.S. Supreme Court agreed with the bible of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). AA is one of the strongest proponents of the disease model of alcoholism. The court upheld the authority of the VA to define alcoholism as the result of ''willful misconduct.'' And as The Big Book says: ... the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind rather than in his body."
Although Justice Byron R. White, writing for the majority, said that the court was not deciding ''whether alcoholism is a disease whose course its victims cannot control,'' he also noted that there was ''a substantial body of medical literature that even contests the proposition that alcoholism is a disease, much less that it is a disease for which the victim bears no responsibility.''
A person does not will the onset of diabetes, hypertension, the presence of a malignant tumor. Here it would be wrong to assign responsibility for the disease. This is not the case with an alcoholic or drug addict. A person both enters and exits usage through an act of will.
Since the word addiction is defined as a volitional act and the relationship between the mind and the body is unknown, it is inaccurate to state with certainty that alcoholism is a disease. The mind can't be sick.
Many disease model spokespersons are recovered alcoholics and have an emotional investment in viewing themselves as helpless to their own behaviors. A majority of these people are seriously lacking in scientific backgrounds. They say scientific validity ''interferes with the process'' of helping people who need help and claim special qualification to help others.They perceive any challenge to the disease concept as ''a challenge to the validity of their own emotional ordeal and conversion to sobriety.''
The treatment industry also has a substantial economic investment in maintaining the disease concept. As long as alcoholism is considered a disease, medical insurance pays for treating it.
Is the disease model of alcoholism scientific? No. Simply calling behavior a disease process does not make it one, even if doing so assists in creating sobriety. Is the treatment policy based on bad science? Yes. Is there any chance that this attitude will change in the near future? Bloody unlikely.
JEFFREY A. SCHALER
Silver Spring
The writer was chairman of the Montgomery County Drug Abuse Advisory Council.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 10:16:00 AM
Quote
This is from CENAPs website, another corporation with a huge stake in defining Alcoholism as a disease...
Bingo! What Greg said!
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 10:22:00 AM
Why so paranoid???
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 10:29:00 AM
Alcoholism is not a disease with an invasive pathology, nor is it a disease of genetics gone awry. Alcoholism has nothing to do with irresistible impulses or uncontrollable urges. Alcoholism is a disease of volition.
Calling alcoholism a disease infers that there is an invasive pathology present where none exists. Calling alcoholism a disease infers the possibility of a heritable genetic lineage with a predetermined immutable eventuality where no such heritable genetic link has been proven. Calling alcoholism a disease infers that there is a medicinal cure when no amount of medicine or counseling can cure this 'disease.'
Calling alcoholism a disease exonerates the alcoholic from all responsibility and accountability for his/her drinking and subsequent misbehavior(s). Calling alcoholism a disease tends to impede the motivation and the desire to change within the alcoholic for everyone knows that one is not responsible for possessing a disease. When one possesses a disease everyone readily acknowledges the lack of volitional control. Alcoholism ceases to exist when the alcoholic volitionally chooses to stop drinking. Alcoholism ends when the alcoholic is motivated to change his/her drinking pattern. It never ends through force and/or coercion.
The one common prerequisite for all psycho therapeutic modalities is for the client to possess the desire and motivation to change oneself. Desire alone, inspires the motivation to change. Without desire and motivation change is not possible. If rehabilitational therapeutic modalities could force or coerce change without desire and motivation being present within the individual, then our prison systems would release convicts who would subsequently be honest and decent citizens. Our schools would produce straight 'A' students and alcoholism (addictions) would be a thing of the past. But in spite of our best-coerced efforts, we continue to release criminals from our prisons, students who fail, and alcoholism flourishes. Why is this?
One reason is that our legislators passed the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA). In so doing, their compassion has produced far more cruelty than it has humanity. This bit of legislation was intended to protect the blind, the deaf, and those in wheelchairs. These intended beneficiaries never received any assistance from this legislation. Why? Because the word 'disability' was redefined by the courts to include: alcoholics, drug addicts, the obese, math phobic's, etc. The ADA actually hurt those who were intended to be protected by it.
This piece of compassionate legislation has more than likely interfered with the natural progression of alcoholism. Alcoholics are no longer allowed to 'hit rock bottom.' Historically, 'hitting rock bottom' has been the common element among those who have volitionally changed their drinking patterns. This piece of compassionate legislation has removed that common element which has always been considered the primary incentive required for volitional change; i.e., the right to fail.
What this piece of compassionate legislation did do is to bestow all the 'benefits and rights' of the truly disabled upon those who are merely volitionally disabled. By bestowing these benefits and rights of the truly disabled upon alcoholics, the legislature has reinforced the disease mentality of helplessness, powerlessness, and the inevitability of relapse. The word 'disease' becomes forever associated with that which is beyond one's volitional control. This piece of legislation reinforces the disease construct that compassionately associates perpetual failure upon the alcoholic. With this mentality, the alcoholic is not only forever doomed to consume alcohol, but is forgiven and exonerated for doing so. This piece of compassionate legislation prevents the primary motivating element for change ever to be discovered by the alcoholic on his/her own, via what the alcoholic does best, drink alcohol.
One of the truly great ironies of alcoholism is how we treat alcoholics. Medicine and Doctors have virtually nothing to offer an alcohol. Doctors send alcoholics to Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), whether they (the alcoholic) wants to go or not. The courts, our jails and prisons, employers, conditions of parole/probation, et.al., all force and/or coerce an alcoholic into attending AA. Why? Because AA represents the only acceptable course of treatment for the alcoholic in the United States. AA alone has the answer. To even consider any other therapeutic course of treatment is laughable. So what is the foundation upon which AA is laid?
Bill W. and Dr. Bob were the founders of AA, but Bill W. was probably the more influential of the two. Bill W. wrote AA's The Big Book and AA's infamous Twelve Steps after experiencing a spiritual awakening while undergoing a hospitalized treatment for his alcoholism. Bill W. also readily acknowledged that AA was modeled after the Oxford Group Movement. The Oxford Group Movement was led by Dr. Frank Buchman, a very charismatic leader, as are all cult leaders. Buchman and his groupers were not in the business of converting heathens to Christianity. What they did do is to subversively and deceitfully 'steal' those Christians from their own church.
Dr. Buchman was never secretive about his possessing superior knowledge and abilities. He readily admitted, and his followers readily acknowledged, that Buchman knew what was best for society. The Oxford Group Movement subscribed to the 'any means justifies the end' philosophy. Dr. Buchman once stated in an interview that the world would be a far better place it were led by a leader such as Adolf Hitler. Buchman was quoted: "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler . . ." Dr. Buchman and his Oxford Group Movement were so despised by the American public that they were forced to change their name to the Moral Rearmament and subsequently they had to go underground. This is the philosophical foundation of AA.
AA's infamous Twelve Steps has just as interesting a foundation. Bill W. was hospitalized for alcoholism. During this hospitalization, he was treated by Dr. Silkworth with Dr. Silkworth's own belladonna cure. This was a standard treatment for alcoholism at that time. The belladonna cure consisted of a blend of morphine, belladonna, henbane and other hallucinogenic drugs. Any of these drugs individually are powerful hallucinogens, let alone the synergistic effect of such a combination. It was while under the influence of this hallucinogenic cure that Bill W. had his white light experience.' This was his religious epiphany. Bill W. describes this experience: "I found myself crying out, "If there is a God, let Him show Himself! I am ready to do anything!" Suddenly, the room lit up with a great white light . . . All about me there was a wonderful feeling of Presence, and I thought to myself, "So, this is the God of the Preachers." This was the 'divine' inspiration for Bill W. to write The Big Book and AA's Twelve Steps. While writing the Twelve Steps, Bill W. arbitrarily decided to stop at twelve steps because there were twelve apostles. This is the scientific foundation upon which AA is premised. AA is the modality upon which 93% of the addictive treatment programs have modeled themselves.
The construct of disease theory alcoholism is closer to being a religion than it is to being a disease. Why do I say this? Because in order to believe in the different tenets of disease theory alcoholism, similar to religion, you must have faith. None of the tenets of disease theory alcoholism have ever been supported by scientific or doctoral level research. It is faith alone which allows these tenets to exist. If you support disease theory alcoholism, you have to have faith and believe in the following:
Alcoholism can afflict anyone regardless of race, creed, religion, etc. This is not true. Alcoholism is statistically so low in Jews, Cantonese Chinese, and Amish that it is safe to say that alcoholism does not exist in those cultures. Why? Because studies show that where either a strong religious base where alcoholism is not accepted or a cultural base where alcoholism is not accepted, alcoholism simply does not exist. It may sound simplistic but it is true.
There are no protective factors against alcoholism - everyone is a potential alcoholic. This is not true. As shown by Jews, Cantonese Chinese, and Amish, a strong religious or cultural grouping that refuses to support the tenets of disease theory alcoholism offers very protective factors against alcoholism since alcoholism is non-existent in those religions/cultures. Also, by definition, if alcoholism is a heritable, genetic trait, then there will be those who do not possess that heritable, genetic trait. Therefore, those who do not possess the gene for alcoholism would in fact possess a protective factor against alcoholism. This tenet contradicts other tenets of disease theory alcoholism.
Alcoholism is genetic. Cantonese Chinese and Ojibwa Indians are considered to be genetically similar if not identical regarding alcoholism. Why? Because both of these cultural peoples manifest a 'Chinese flush' after consuming alcohol; i.e., a reddening of the face. If alcoholism is genetic; and if both of these cultural peoples are genetically similar then both groups should suffer similar rates of alcoholism. Yet, alcoholism is nonexistent within the Cantonese Chinese while absolutely decimating the Ojibwa Indians. What is the difference in belief systems? The Ojibwa Indians believe that alcohol is stronger than a parent's love of his/her child while the Cantonese Chinese believe that drunken misbehavior is a manifestation of one's personality regardless of one's sobriety. The individual takes responsibility for his/her behavior whether sober or inebriated.
Alcoholism is heritable. This tenet completely disregards learned behavior; i.e., a child learns how to drink from parents, role models, peers, etc. IF alcoholism were a 10% heritable or genetic trait, then it would be immutable. Why? Because genetics cannot be changed volitionally and statistically 85% of all alcoholics volitionally stop their alcohol consumption without any outside interventions, therapies, hospitalizations, etc. One cannot volitionally change their eye color, hair color, or skin color volitionally, yet alcoholism has a significantly higher success rate through volition than through any other means. There is no research that scientifically supports alcoholism as being heritable.
What is the possibility that alcoholism is genetic and heritable? Per the Human Genome Project, there are 80,000 genes with approximately 3 billion different interacting combinations that exist in the human genome (the sum total of heritable, genetic material in a human being). Even the proponents of disease theory alcoholism have acknowledged that finding the gene that causes alcoholism would be like finding the gene that causes one to like basketball. The idea that alcoholism is 100% genetic and heritable is highly unlikely by all studies and statistics.
Loss of control. Studies have consistently shown that alcoholics drink to achieve a certain level of intoxication that they personally find desirable. Alcoholics will alter their drinking pattern (consume less) if so doing benefits them. By definition, IF alcoholism were a disease that was truly an irresistible impulse of uncontrollability then alcoholics would consistently drink until they are unconscious or until they overdosed on alcohol. That is simply not true.
Denial. A major tenet of disease theory alcoholism is denial. Denial is an unconscious defense mechanism that in theory is implemented to protect the ego from unpleasantness. If one is to believe in denial then one has to believe that in spite of everything that is obvious and negative in an alcoholic's life; i.e., divorce, loss of employment, loss of family, medical problems, legal problems, etc., the alcoholic is incapable of associating these negatives in his/her life with his/her consumption of alcohol. Even AA's Big Book addresses this as conscious lying, not denial. Also, it has to be noted that a typical alcoholic is not the stereotypical skid row type. Statistically, alcoholics are slightly smarter than average, hold better jobs, hold professional jobs, managerial positions, etc. Yet, according to this tenet of alcoholism they are not smart enough to associate the obvious negative aspects of their lives with their consumption of alcohol.
There is a chemical imbalance of the brain. This is one of the newer theories pertaining to disease alcoholism. It is questionable how there can be an imbalance of the brain when there are no standards of what a chemically balanced brain is; i.e., what chemicals comprise a balanced brain in terms of percentages or weights, qualities, quantities, etc. What is a normal, chemically balanced brain? It is assumed that a brain becomes 'balanced' when drugs alleviate symptoms. The alleviation of symptoms never includes the adverse side effects of the prescriptive drug. Side effects may include one or any combination of dry mouth, drooling, diarrhea, constipation, sleep disturbance, eating disorders, sexual dysfunction just to name a few. Yet proponents of this theoretical construct do not look at these very serious side effects as being included as an imbalance of brain chemistry.
Neurotransmitters. This is another new theoretical construct of disease alcoholism. This theory proposes that neurotransmitters such as dopamine and/or seratonin become particularly influenced towards alcohol consumption; i.e., these neurotransmitters require alcohol in order to trigger their function within the body. What this theory fails to address is how a generic neurotransmitter such as dopamine (the continuum of pleasure) or seratonin (the continuum of mood, affect and sleep) become highly specific and targeted towards alcoholism? There is merely associative, anecdotal evidence to support this tenet of alcoholism. Also, this theory fails to address how genetically similar people such as Cantonese Chinese and Ojibwa Indians can be so different in terms of the effects of alcohol and alcoholism yet be genetically similar? This theory implies that if a Jew becomes an alcoholic, then his neurotransmitters or brain chemistry has spontaneously become altered. Not only is this not a compelling theory, it tends to contradict itself.
Brain Waves or images. No similar brain waves have been found between different alcoholics. All brain waves appear to be more similar to fingerprints; i.e., each person's brain waves are unique unto themselves.
Addictive Personality. Addictive personality is defined as having an existing premorbid condition prior to the onset of alcoholism. There are no studies that have found any existing premorbid condition prior to the onset of alcoholism among alcoholics. Therefore, this tenet of disease alcoholism falls flat. There does not appear to be any such entity as an addictive personality. This is a media construct, not a scientifically based construct.
It the first drink that gets you drunk. An AA aphorism meaning that once an alcoholic consumes the first drink, he/she is then an alcoholic. This is not true. This is not even supported by proponents of disease theory alcoholism. Even the proponents of disease theory alcoholism acknowledge that alcoholism takes at least several years to develop. There is no scientific foundation or substantiation for this saying.
Alcoholism is a behavior. Behaviors are not disease entities, they are bad habits perseverated by obsessive repetition and habituation. Habituated, substance induced behaviors cannot be reduced to a single etiology anymore than non-substance induced behaviors can be reduced to a single etiology. Sex, eating, gambling, computers, computer games, and unrequited love are normative behaviors that have been declared diseases. Sex, gambling, computers, computer games, and unrequited love do not involve the ingestion of any substance yet abstinence from these habituated behaviors may incite withdrawal symptoms identical to substance withdrawal symptoms. The answer to the eradication of alcoholism lies in our national perspective of alcoholism. Do we want to perpetuate the myth of alcoholism being a disease entity that is out of the realm of one's discretional, volitional control or do we tell the truth? Do we let the dirty secret out of the bag and tell everyone that, like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, they already possess the power to hole dominion over alcoholism.
"The doctor said: "You have the mind of a chronic alcoholic. I have never seen on single case recover, where that state of mind existed to the extent that it does in you." (Carl Jung to Bill W. - Chapter 2, p.4, html version The Big Book).
Interesting, this paper can be found on the Holden Police Dept website
http://www.holdenpd.com/alcohol.html (http://www.holdenpd.com/alcohol.html)
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 10:30:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 07:22:00, DC wrote:
"I will still accept the Mayo Clinics definition over any of yours. I would know, I suffer from this disease. People like you do not understand the nature of addiction and cannot relate nor understand this definition, because eithe a) you are in denial or b) you are not afflicted.
Why so paranoid???"
Because dis-information on any subject is dangerous. Remember the Salem Witch Trials?
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 10:36:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 10:37:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 07:22:00, DC wrote:
"I will still accept the Mayo Clinics definition over any of yours. I would know, I suffer from this disease. People like you do not understand the nature of addiction and cannot relate nor understand this definition, because eithe a) you are in denial or b) you are not afflicted.
Why so paranoid???"
Sure you will, because it absolves you of all responsiblity for your actions and forces us non weaklings to pay for your bad choices thru higher taxes and insurance premiums.
You suffer from no balls, not a disease.
My mother is dying, actually physically dying, right now and has been an alcoholic all her life. Her choices of cigarrettes and alcohol over virtually everything else including her children has come full circle and is now physically killing her.I could let her off the hook and blame it on a "disease", but the truth is she is killing herself. I love her and forgive her, but I won't tell myself a lie. My mother made horrible choices and chose the gratification of cigarretes, beer and wine over relationships and a more meaningful life.
Now my mother really has a bonafide disease, called empysema, caused by one of her bad choices, cigarettes, and it will kill her.
Alcohol is an substance not a disease.
Tell me, is sniffing paint thinner a disease also? Smoking Cigarretes? Looking at porn all day? overeating? Chronic masturbating?At what point do you stop sluffing off the responsiblity of your bad behavior on substances?
It is you in denial. Stop blaming your willy- livered weak behavior on an substance. It is you, and nothing or nobody else, that causes your irresponsible behavior and your choice to prioritize a substance over reality. Calling your "fill in the blank" weakness a disease only provides a willing excuse for relapses and provides a social vehicle for treatment.
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 10:41:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 07:36:00, DC wrote:
"I can see that reason nor medical fact will not sway you from your belief. Someone who wants to believe it is a lie will believe it is a lie. Suggesting that Alcoholism as a disease is somehow connected to the Salem witch hunts is a stretch by which no common sense can retort."
Medical fact?
Sorry Doctor, but you are a quack.
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 10:48:00 AM
You are a sick individual. I feel sorry for you. You will never understand the nature of addiction because you are too wrapped up in your own self-hatred and you cannot allow yourself to be free of your past. I am not saying that you are an addict, in fact I can only surmise that you are not, based on the way your thought pattern works. Why you choose to be aggresive and nasty is only a question that you can answer. I only came here to post my experience, sorry it is not your experience.
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 10:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 07:48:00, DC wrote:
"Greg,
You are a sick individual. I feel sorry for you. You will never understand the nature of addiction because you are too wrapped up in your own self-hatred and you cannot allow yourself to be free of your past. I am not saying that you are an addict, in fact I can only surmise that you are not, based on the way your thought pattern works. Why you choose to be aggresive and nasty is only a question that you can answer. I only came here to post my experience, sorry it is not your experience."
I may have mentioned this once before, but you really are an asshole. YOu know nothing about me personally. Previously you said I needed "treatment".
Which is it Dr. Quack...do I need "treatment" or am I "not an addict". I am as you put it "aggressive" and "nasty" soley to you, because I find your comments distastefull and insulting to the good people here that I care about.
You have no argument, and when you can't support your stupid statements, you get insulting.
Now go fuck yourself.
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 10:55:00 AM
It is just as effective as your voodoo treatment and much less expensive...
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 11:00:00 AM
I believe you do need treatment, but not the kind that involves addiction. Yours is a more serious affliction. You claim I do not know you, but I know you well enough.
As far as me being an asshole, well isn't that origional?
As far as your previous post regarding the nature of my disease, which is, how did you put it " a disease of no balls", that is flaming at its worst. Yes, I stand by my belief that you are one sick and angry individual. You do not have license to this forum, so do not begin to tell me where I belong and where I don't.
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 11:02:00 AM
It will all become clear if you just surrender to the blue dot.
:grin:
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 11:03:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 11:05:00 AM
"You suffer from no balls, not a disease."
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 11:06:00 AM
You just can't seem to get it right for some reason.
:lol:
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 11:07:00 AM
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 11:09:00 AM
maybe thats your problem...blue lights. This may indicate some kind of brain malfunction.
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 11:11:00 AM
Jesus, how we ever going to help you with your "Disease" if you cant even get this basic 1 step treatment modality down?
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 11:13:00 AM
the National inquirer "blue Dot".
Just stare at it and all good that happens to you afterward is attributed to the magic blue dot.
Just take a look at just a few of the thousands of "magic blue dot" testimonies.
"I stared at the magic blue dot and received a check for $200 in the mail"
tennessee
"I was lost, but After the dot came into my life, I gave up drugs"
tampa
"I stared at the blue dot for 10 minutes and won the lottery"
New york
"without the Magic blue dot, I would be deadinsaneorinjail"
sarasota.
The magic blue dot rules! But you have to stare. Merely glancing won't do it. You must WORK the dot.
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 11:15:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 11:34:00 AM
Why not, they both have the same "sucess ratio" and scientific principles behind them, and you could both "work your program" together.
:idea:
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 11:38:00 AM
Currently my daughter, who happens to be none of your business any longer, spends more time at home than she does at GT.
Staring at blue dots is a problem or a solution for you, and unfortunately only you.[ This Message was edited by: DC on 2005-02-01 08:39 ]
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 11:42:00 AM
She told me back in the mid 80's they came out with "Alcoholism is a disease much like diabetes"
She said, "Isn't it funny that we never saw diabetics attending meetings, or insanely running around saying 'I have to get some sugar right NOW!'"
Like Greg said - alcoholism is a disease of will, not a deficiency of a chemical like insulin.
My degree is in Neuroscience... want to tell me again how I know nothing?
Post by: Anonymous on February 01, 2005, 11:43:00 AM
It IS my business as long as you choose to come here.
Now, run along and WORK THE DOT!
It really is your only hope. I don't want you or your daughter deadinsaneorinjail. No one should suffer that fate. Everyone should believe in the blue dot.
It could save the world!
Post by: Anonymous on February 01, 2005, 11:48:00 AM
Don't forget he is a current devotee to the seed/straight/life/DC chain of abusive rehabs. If you don't agree you are a druggie,insane or worse.
Check out this quote from the predecessor to Life/DC...
"they are either druggies or they are fools"
Art Barker, speaking of his critics.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 11:50:00 AM
The bible teaches that woman brought sin and death into the world, that she precipitated the fall of the race, that she was arraigned before the judgment seat of Heaven, tried, condemned and sentenced. Marriage for her was to be a condition of bondage, maternity a period of suffering and anguish, and in silence and subjection, she was to play the role of a dependent on man's bounty for all her material wants, and for all the information she might desire...Here is the Bible position of woman briefly summed up.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 11:55:00 AM
I suppose you know more about addiction than the Mayo Clinic and thousands of other respected medical institutions. Your knowledge on this subject is so astounding. Why don't you write a book, or come up with a cure. I suppose what it boils down to is this, you will only believe in what you think. That you are smarter than everyone else. That other experiences (such as mine with my daughter in GT) mean nothing because one time, a long time ago, You were put in a treatment center and had a bad experience. Your experiences are not everyone's experiences. I have read enough posts on this board to know that there are many, many people who have posted here that have shared positive experiences at these institutions. You choose not to believe them. I can only say that I am so sorry that you and people like Greg choose to be stuck in the past. If these institutions were so corrupt and doing illegal things, then they would be shut down. GOD knows that they have been ivestigated to the maximum. So who is right? You or me? As long as the doors are open for business, and as long as I continue to see the many miracles that I have witnessed in my experience, you will not sway me from my opinions.
I only wish that you could have all been a little more civil. It does go to show that your emotional maturity has been stunted, but I do not believe it was by any of these institutions.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 11:55:00 AM
AA gives away FREE COFFEE!!!!!??????????
I'm THERE!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 11:59:00 AM
JEFFREY A. SCHALER
Silver Spring
The writer was chairman of the Montgomery County Drug Abuse Advisory Council.
Schaler, J.A. (1988, October 25). Alcoholism is not a disease.
The Washington Post, Letters to the Editor, p. A26.
It is unfortunate that the House of Representatives recently voted to overrule a Veterans Administration policy calling alcoholism ''willful misconduct'' [''House Votes to Restore Benefits to Alcoholic Veterans,'' Oct. 18]. Contrary to the claim that this is an important victory for all recovering alcoholics, it is first and foremost a victory for the alcoholism treatment industry and a defeat for scientific medicine.
Ironically, on April 20, 1988, the U.S. Supreme Court agreed with the bible of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA). AA is one of the strongest proponents of the disease model of alcoholism. The court upheld the authority of the VA to define alcoholism as the result of ''willful misconduct.'' And as The Big Book says: ... the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind rather than in his body."
Although Justice Byron R. White, writing for the majority, said that the court was not deciding ''whether alcoholism is a disease whose course its victims cannot control,'' he also noted that there was ''a substantial body of medical literature that even contests the proposition that alcoholism is a disease, much less that it is a disease for which the victim bears no responsibility.''
A person does not will the onset of diabetes, hypertension, the presence of a malignant tumor. Here it would be wrong to assign responsibility for the disease. This is not the case with an alcoholic or drug addict. A person both enters and exits usage through an act of will.
Since the word addiction is defined as a volitional act and the relationship between the mind and the body is unknown, it is inaccurate to state with certainty that alcoholism is a disease. The mind can't be sick.
Many disease model spokespersons are recovered alcoholics and have an emotional investment in viewing themselves as helpless to their own behaviors. A majority of these people are seriously lacking in scientific backgrounds. They say scientific validity ''interferes with the process'' of helping people who need help and claim special qualification to help others.They perceive any challenge to the disease concept as ''a challenge to the validity of their own emotional ordeal and conversion to sobriety.''
The treatment industry also has a substantial economic investment in maintaining the disease concept. As long as alcoholism is considered a disease, medical insurance pays for treating it.
Is the disease model of alcoholism scientific? No. Simply calling behavior a disease process does not make it one, even if doing so assists in creating sobriety. Is the treatment policy based on bad science? Yes. Is there any chance that this attitude will change in the near future? Bloody unlikely.
Innocence implies the ability to restrain from the initiation of aggression, and to question those who don't.
Sorin Cucerai
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 12:02:00 PM
As a matter of fact, I do think he is full of shit. He just confirms your opinion. He validates what you are saying. He has no real experience, no life experience. he is a talking head.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 12:03:00 PM
One has to multiply thoughts to the point where there aren't enough
policemen to control them
--Stanislaw Lec
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 12:08:00 PM
"Now, I'm a walking dead man," ... "And what bothers me is that I'm dead because I tried to help the kids. And it's all the fault of all those people over there at the DEA." [Dead Man Talking]
--Ben Guillory
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 12:10:00 PM
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 12:11:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 12:11:00 PM
Scroll back through the threads and find them.
Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 12:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:02:00, DC wrote:
"Cayo,
As a matter of fact, I do think he is full of shit. He just confirms your opinion. He validates what you are saying. He has no real experience, no life experience. he is a talking head."
How do you know that?? He's obviously got experience in dealing with alcoholism. He was chairman of the Montgomery County Drug Abuse Advisory Council. And you have no idea whether or not he has "personal experience".
Fucking ostrich
Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
--Rep. Robert L. Henry, TX December 22, 1914 (quoting Lincoln)
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 12:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 08:55:00, DC wrote:
"Sara,
I suppose you know more about addiction than the Mayo Clinic and thousands of other respected medical institutions. Your knowledge on this subject is so astounding.
I never claimed to know more. Researchers are at war with each other to this day. I didn't think this stuff up. I studied and participated in research in an academic institution. Compulsions are not diseases.
Quote
Why don't you write a book, or come up with a cure. I suppose what it boils down to is this, you will only believe in what you think. That you are smarter than everyone else.
I make more money doing what I'm doing now - outside of academia. Where have I ever said I'm smarter than anyone else? Those were your words, not mine, so don't think for me, and don't attribute your assumptions to me.
Quote
That other experiences (such as mine with my daughter in GT) mean nothing because one time, a long time ago, You were put in a treatment center and had a bad experience. Your experiences are not everyone's experiences. I have read enough posts on this board to know that there are many, many people who have posted here that have shared positive experiences at these institutions. You choose not to believe them.
I was put in a treatment center with no need for treatment. I never touched drugs, alcohol or tobacco. I was an honors student, on my way to college, too busy reading and being a geek to even be accepted into a group that could walk me down the road to trouble.
My question to you is - what kind of place accepts someone as an addict without factual evidence of them being an addict?
Quote
I can only say that I am so sorry that you and people like Greg choose to be stuck in the past. If these institutions were so corrupt and doing illegal things, then they would be shut down. GOD knows that they have been ivestigated to the maximum. So who is right? You or me? As long as the doors are open for business, and as long as I continue to see the many miracles that I have witnessed in my experience, you will not sway me from my opinions.
Some more reading for you:
http://www.isaccorp.org/watchlist.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/watchlist.html)
and also:
http://www.isaccorp.org/warningsigns.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/warningsigns.html)
Quote
I only wish that you could have all been a little more civil. It does go to show that your emotional maturity has been stunted, but I do not believe it was by any of these institutions. "
I fight fire with fire, guy. If you're going to throw something, expect someone to catch it, and throw it back. I first asked you a series of neutral questions, and you called me "fraud". When you act like a moron, expect to be treated as one.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 12:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:02:00, DC wrote:
"Cayo,
As a matter of fact, I do think he is full of shit. He just confirms your opinion. He validates what you are saying. He has no real experience, no life experience. he is a talking head."
Much like the cites you give that conform to your opinion, right?
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 12:24:00 PM
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm (http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm)
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 12:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:11:00, DC wrote:
"Where is Montgomery County?? Is this suppose to lend to his credibility?"
Does it matter? There's a Montgomery county in Alabama, Arkasas, Georgia, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Mississippi, North Carolina, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 12:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:02:00, DC wrote:
"Cayo,
As a matter of fact, I do think he is full of shit. He just confirms your opinion. He validates what you are saying. He has no real experience, no life experience. he is a talking head."
Let's look at the motivations for both points of view. There is a HUGE incentive for the "talking heads" that promote the alcoholism is a disease theory. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. What would this guys motivation be??? And how hard would the "disease theory" people work to keep their opponents quiet? I mean, if word got out what would all those poor "professionals" do?
Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 12:35:00 PM
I do not expect you to understand addiction, because none of you are apparently addicts. That is ok. I know where you are coming from. You are displeased and bitter about being put in a rehab. Your experience was just too awful to rise above and resume your life. Instead you just can't wait until someone like me comes along and writes something positive about an experience which I am currently going through. You live for these times. What will you do when I am gone, resort back to crying about what happened to you 25 years ago?
And while Montgomery Counties across America have opinions on Addiction and Alcoholism, I prefer to listen to the real experts.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 12:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:24:00, DC wrote:
"For all of you unwilling to believe in the DISEASE of addiction, I offer you this link, and can provide many, many more that state that it is in fact a disease. But then again, maybe it is just a conspiracy.
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm (http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm)"
Naltrexone is derived from Naloxone, which is used in emergency medicine as "Narcan"... Narcan is used to block opiate receptors in alive, but "out of it" narcotic overdosers, to keep them from soaking up any more narcotic in their blood stream that might kill them.
Naltrexone is also being looked at in MS and Autism. Does that mean they're addicts too?
"Alcoholism" as a disease is raking in tons of money. Like Greg said, once you declassify it as a disease, insuance companies don't pay.
Yes, brain chemistry is complex. There are more articles out there that are "inconclusive" when trying to pin down the area, or areas of the brain that is/are responsible for alcoholism. Since I really don't devote my entire life awake to this cause, I don't have the time to look them up right now. But I'll get back to you on that.
There is an open ended theory that certain brain areas are just responsible for an addiction to anything that makes you feel good - be it alcohol or video games. Everyone has their preference.
But try getting "Video Entertainment Addiction" recognized as a disease by the NIH.
Post by: jjpinks on February 01, 2005, 12:45:00 PM
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 12:48:00 PM
I do not buy the conspiracy theory. There is just too much evidence to the contrary.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 12:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:35:00, DC wrote:
"I'm sorry, I do not buy your argument that this is some kind of a conspiracy. Would you listen to yourself?? You people are so paranoid.
Paranoid about what? My windows are open, I answer the telephone, and I soak up the sun on a regular basis, and I have people traepsing all thru my house daily. I can only speak for myself, but I am hardly living in fear of anything.
Quote
I do not expect you to understand addiction, because none of you are apparently addicts. That is ok. I know where you are coming from. You are displeased and bitter about being put in a rehab. Your experience was just too awful to rise above and resume your life. Instead you just can't wait until someone like me comes along and writes something positive about an experience which I am currently going through. You live for these times. What will you do when I am gone, resort back to crying about what happened to you 25 years ago?
I understand addiction to a lot of things - primarily opiates, which have a severe chemical effect, leading to bona-fide physical effects. Yes, alcohol has physical effects too - but once you put the bottle down, and get your niacin and thiamine leves back to par, and assuming you haven't suffered any brain atrophy from too many years on the sauce, those effects go away, and a lot quicker than someone who has suffered a painful opiate withdrawal.
You avoid the physical symptoms long before they appear when (to reference Greg) you Grow some balls and realize you DO have the power to put the goddamned bottle down! Christ - it takes ONE ACTION, not years of so-called-treatment.
Quote
And while Montgomery Counties across America have opinions on Addiction and Alcoholism, I prefer to listen to the real experts."
As do we. There are experts on both sides.
_________________
"I was a long time coming
I'll be a long time gone
you've got your whole life to do something
and that's not very long"
- Ani DiFranco[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-01 09:55 ]
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 12:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:48:00, DC wrote:
"I'm sorry Sara,
I do not buy the conspiracy theory. There is just too much evidence to the contrary."
Before I call you a friggin' idiot...
WHAT CONSPIRACY THEORY???
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 12:59:00 PM
It is not about "balls", you should know, assuming you have none. To simply put the bottle down does not in fact mean that the addiction is over. I really can't expect you to understand this, you are not an addict. This is not about balls or compulsions or any of those things you talk about.
I'm sorry, i cannot explain into words what I want to say. Everything I do say however is immediatley shot down. So go back to complaining and hopefully some unsuspecting person will travel into your lives so you can chew them up and spit them out.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 01:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:59:00, DC wrote:
"Sara,
It is not about "balls", you should know, assuming you have none. To simply put the bottle down does not in fact mean that the addiction is over. I really can't expect you to understand this, you are not an addict. This is not about balls or compulsions or any of those things you talk about.
I'm sorry, i cannot explain into words what I want to say. Everything I do say however is immediatley shot down. So go back to complaining and hopefully some unsuspecting person will travel into your lives so you can chew them up and spit them out. "
You really think my life revolves around some "grand conspiracy", don't you. Well, if it makes you feel better, you go right on believing that.
Personally, I do understand addiction, as you so believe in it. I'm really really craving Cheetos right now, but I know if I go to get some, one handful will not be enough, and before I know it, the bag will be empty.
Since I don't feel like checking myself in for Cheeto Treatment, I think I'll just eat this apple.
See how easy that was? :grin:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 01:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:35:00, DC wrote:
"I'm sorry, I do not buy your argument that this is some kind of a conspiracy. Would you listen to yourself?? You people are so paranoid.
I do not expect you to understand addiction, because none of you are apparently addicts.
Actually I understand it quite well. I went through an 8 year opiate addiction you fucking moron. I have more "personal experience" than you can shake a fucking stick at.
The bible teaches that woman brought sin and death into the world, that she precipitated the fall of the race, that she was arraigned before the judgment seat of Heaven, tried, condemned and sentenced. Marriage for her was to be a condition of bondage, maternity a period of suffering and anguish, and in silence and subjection, she was to play the role of a dependent on man's bounty for all her material wants, and for all the information she might desire...Here is the Bible position of woman briefly summed up.
--Elizabeth Cady-Stanton
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 02:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:24:00, DC wrote:
"For all of you unwilling to believe in the DISEASE of addiction, I offer you this link, and can provide many, many more that state that it is in fact a disease. But then again, maybe it is just a conspiracy.
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm (http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm)"
Again you quote an organization with a reason to promote the alcohol as a disease. FURTHER researching your wild conclusions, we go to the Doctor they quote and get his actual statement....
"There is at this time still very little understanding about the biological mechanisms that promote abnormal alcohol-seeking behavior; however, studies in genetically-developed animal models are beginning to provide interesting leads that appear to be relevant to the human disorder."
Do you get it? some key words to help you break it down.
"Very little understanding"
"studies..in animals..are BEGINNING to provide interesting LEADS."
In other words, the very conclusive statement you throw out is nothing but wishfull thinking. Further, The good doctor never says alcohol has been shown to be a disease, only that studies of labotory rats show a propensity of some rats to crave alcohol more than others.
RATS, DC...not people. NO GENETIC MARKER EVEN IDENTIFIED IN RATS, only "interesting LEADS".
Lets explore a little further.
"The difference between lines in response to ethanol suggests that both the enhanced responsiveness to the low-dose reinforcing effects of ethanol, and the rapid development and persistence of tolerance to the highdose, aversive effects of ethanol are important in promoting high alcoholseeking behavior. Recent comparison studies in HAD and LAD rats have shown that, as with the P rats, selection for ethanol drinking preference (10%,v/v, vs. H20) produced lines (HAD) that exhibit operant responding for ethanol as reward in concentrations as high as 30%. As with NP rats, LAD rats responded very little for ethanol when alcohol concentration exceeded 5% (Levy et al., 1988). Furthermore, as was found in the P and NP rats, HAD animals exhibit longer persistence of tolerance after a single, sedative-hypnotic dose of ethanol than do the LAD animals (Froehlich et al., 1987). Therefore, the salient features of the hypothesis formulated from the studies of the P and NP rats appear generalizable."
Dr Ling, quoted as the basis of the article, has done...ready for this...ZERO studies on humans citing "ethical concerns". The ability to decision make between rats and humans when involuntary given mind altering substances, I submit here, is high.
Your doctor, hand picked to further the mission of the Naiaa, also advocates the very 1984 style "screening of all hospital patients for alcoholism that admit using alcohol". He is anything but non-partial.
NEXT!
DC, Your critical thinking skills are suspect...I still think you would benefit from the blue dot. In fact, I am so convinced I would be willing to sign a Baker act and have you involuntarily commited to 6 months of 12 to 12 staring at the dot. Remember, no glancing..you must WORK the dot.
For your own good, of course...
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 02:20:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 02:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 11:19:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:24:00, DC wrote:
"For all of you unwilling to believe in the DISEASE of addiction, I offer you this link, and can provide many, many more that state that it is in fact a disease. But then again, maybe it is just a conspiracy.
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm (http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm)"
Again you quote an organization with a reason to promote the alcohol as a disease. FURTHER researching your wild conclusions, we go to the Doctor they quote and get his actual statement....
"There is at this time still very little understanding about the biological mechanisms that promote abnormal alcohol-seeking behavior; however, studies in genetically-developed animal models are beginning to provide interesting leads that appear to be relevant to the human disorder."
Do you get it? some key words to help you break it down.
"Very little understanding"
"studies..in animals..are BEGINNING to provide interesting LEADS."
In other words, the very conclusive statement you throw out is nothing but wishfull thinking. Further, The good doctor never says alcohol has been shown to be a disease, only that studies of labotory rats show a propensity of some rats to crave alcohol more than others.
RATS, DC...not people. NO GENETIC MARKER EVEN IDENTIFIED IN RATS, only "interesting LEADS".
Lets explore a little further.
"The difference between lines in response to ethanol suggests that both the enhanced responsiveness to the low-dose reinforcing effects of ethanol, and the rapid development and persistence of tolerance to the highdose, aversive effects of ethanol are important in promoting high alcoholseeking behavior. Recent comparison studies in HAD and LAD rats have shown that, as with the P rats, selection for ethanol drinking preference (10%,v/v, vs. H20) produced lines (HAD) that exhibit operant responding for ethanol as reward in concentrations as high as 30%. As with NP rats, LAD rats responded very little for ethanol when alcohol concentration exceeded 5% (Levy et al., 1988). Furthermore, as was found in the P and NP rats, HAD animals exhibit longer persistence of tolerance after a single, sedative-hypnotic dose of ethanol than do the LAD animals (Froehlich et al., 1987). Therefore, the salient features of the hypothesis formulated from the studies of the P and NP rats appear generalizable."
Dr Ling, quoted as the basis of the article, has done...ready for this...ZERO studies on humans citing "ethical concerns". The ability to decision make between rats and humans when involuntary given mind altering substances, I submit here, is high.
Your doctor, hand picked to further the mission of the Naiaa, also advocates the very 1984 style "screening of all hospital patients for alcoholism that admit using alcohol". He is anything but non-partial.
NEXT!
DC, Your critical thinking skills are suspect...I still think you would benefit from the blue dot. In fact, I am so convinced I would be willing to sign a Baker act and have you involuntarily commited to 6 months of 12 to 12 staring at the dot. Remember, no glancing..you must WORK the dot.
For your own good, of course...
"
Greg, you are da MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 02:29:00 PM
My experience with addiction to counter your "you know nothing about addiction" assertion.
I was addicted to cigarettes for 6 years and quit on my own..I used drugs recreationally off and on for 10 years then quit on my own with little to no problem.
My mother is a bonafide alcoholic.
My stepfather a drink from the bottle vodka alcoholic and a graduate of Charter TC.
I am a graduate of "addiction treatment" ala the Seed, the inspiration for your beloved GT.
My sister is a graduate of the seed.
My two stepsiblings, graduates of the seed.
My neice has been in three TC's that I know of and currently is working her steps in AA.
My nephew, no decesed, admitted to two TC type treatment centers as a teenager.
My other nephew, a stint in a TC in California.
My father and his wife...co founders of Straight, Inc.
I have studied extensively drug and alcohol treatment and debated the topic ad nausem.I will debate you any time any place on this subject matter because you have proven here you no little of what you speak, only able to spew others mission statements and cut and paste articles with no apparent authors.
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 02:33:00 PM
You are so predictible that I can't tell you apart from a seedling, Lifer,Straight, or GT devotee.
You exhibit "genetic markers" for all the above.
:grin:
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 02:35:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 02:39:00 PM
:cry2: :cry2: :cry2:
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 02:42:00 PM
I feel like I came here to talk about GT...NOW nad you people friggin attack me. Its ok because I know you are all sick.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 02:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 11:42:00, DC wrote:
"Man Greg, you and Sara and Cayo are real big jackasses. Greg, I feel sorry for you. To have been put in a treatment center and not being an addict, by parents that I'm sure had absolutely no reason to put you there. Sara, I feel sorry for you because you are just so fucking smart that you are on a different planet, like YourAnus. Cayo, you are just plain stupid, and have a very well rounded vocabulary that is so bitter with your own life that you would hope that we all were as unhappy as you, but then again I can say that about all 3 of you.
I feel like I came here to talk about GT...NOW nad you people friggin attack me. Its ok because I know you are all sick. "
You know this, huh?
Oh, you left out Ginger - what would her malfunction be?
And my anus isn't a planet. You didn't know that? Hmmm... maybe I am smarter than you. ::cheers::
_________________
"I was a long time coming
I'll be a long time gone
you've got your whole life to do something
and that's not very long"
- Ani DiFranco [ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-01 11:51 ]
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
Face it, there is NO truth to your bullshit spewing when it comes to GT. The SEED and LIFE were 20-30 years ago...let it go. Go to your blue dot...go somewhere, just get on with your lives.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 03:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 11:54:00, DC wrote:
"No...Just you 3. You are the most embittered self impressed people I have ever had the displeasure of speaking with. Its like you are still teenagers that know everything. I hope you all decide to get on with your life some day. You know what THEY say, Resentments are the number one reason for relapse.
Face it, there is NO truth to your bullshit spewing when it comes to GT. The SEED and LIFE were 20-30 years ago...let it go. Go to your blue dot...go somewhere, just get on with your lives. "
Look, your initial post ended with "Any comments would be appreciated". You also said in your initial post that some of the things GT does you found a little "strange to say the least".
We asked you about the things that you found strange, but you never answered. Again... what are these things of which you brought up yourself?
And again, with the "you have no lives" spewage. I can only speak for myself, and I can assure you that I have "gotten on with it". I do whatever I damned well please, when I want to do it.
Maybe you're a bit resenful because your own life has been disrupted by GT? Is it not inconvenient to have to rearrange your house to GTs standards? Is it not a pain to not be allowed to have family and friends to dinner or a quick cup o' coffee? Wouldn't you rather do other things on a Friday night rather than Open Meetings and reviewing MIs? Wouldn't it be nice to open a window for some fresh air without having to ascertain that one of your host kids doesn't go near it?
Don't you WISH your life was your own!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 03:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 11:54:00, DC wrote:
"No...Just you 3. You are the most embittered self impressed people I have ever had the displeasure of speaking with. Its like you are still teenagers that know everything. I hope you all decide to get on with your life some day. You know what THEY say, Resentments are the number one reason for relapse.
Face it, there is NO truth to your bullshit spewing when it comes to GT. The SEED and LIFE were 20-30 years ago...let it go. Go to your blue dot...go somewhere, just get on with your lives. "
Nah. I've got a pretty great life actually. The ONLY time my "bitterness" comes up is when dealing with subhuman ostrich-like morons such as yourself. I've got a wonderful husband, two beautiful amazing kids, a great house and I'm lucky enough to do some extensive travelling.
As to truth? You wouldn't be capable of recognizing it if it crawled up your ass and bit you. Our abuse was 20 or 30 years ago and I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't do whatever I could to warn people of what REALLY goes on in those places. They're all fruit of the poison tree. Try using some critical thinking skills if you have any left. Try pulling your head out of your ass and looking at things with an open mind. I too once bought into at least SOME of the bullshit, but once I did some research into it I realized how "played" I had been just as you are being "played" now. But, unfortunately your daughter will be the one to pay the price for YOUR ignorance.
Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 03:33:00 PM
I would expect nothing less from you than what you said. You have met my expectations.
Sara,
As i said in my origional post, I would appreciate comments, not you all telling me that I was making this huge fucking mistake. Some conversation. The strangeness that i refer to is the kids singing children songs, and them starting meetings from the beginning if someone acts out. I have no beef with GT or the "strangness" that is associated with it, because I think it works. It has helped my daughter. She was as advanced in her addiction as anyone could be at her age. Whether you believe in adiction as a disease or not, I do.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 03:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 12:33:00, DC wrote:
"Cayo,
I would expect nothing less from you than what you said. You have met my expectations.
Just because you don't have an answer to what she said, or an intelligent answer to the things she gave you to check out for yourself, that makes Cayo stupid? Amazing.
Quote
Sara,
As i said in my origional post, I would appreciate comments, not you all telling me that I was making this huge fucking mistake. Some conversation.
Well, in my book, those count as comments. Didn't your sponsor tell you that the world may sometimes not meet your expectations?
Quote
The strangeness that i refer to is the kids singing children songs, and them starting meetings from the beginning if someone acts out. I have no beef with GT or the "strangness" that is associated with it, because I think it works. It has helped my daughter. She was as advanced in her addiction as anyone could be at her age. Whether you believe in adiction as a disease or not, I do."
What exactly is your kid "addicted" to?
What do they talk about in there when they're not singing childrens songs? You can't know - if your girl tells you anything, she's breaking confidentiality. She can't tell you how 'Jane' stood up 'Jolene' and called her a "druggie whore" and reduced her to tears with words that will haunt Jolene for the rest of her life. Also - the minute you start questioning their methods, YOU come under fire. YOU will be grilled mercilessly and there will be a term for you (I forgot what it is now... the parent that starts thinking things smell bad)... anyway. It's food for thought.
You asked for comments. You got 'em, pal.
Post by: jjpinks on February 01, 2005, 03:50:00 PM
1. Do you really, in the depths of your gut, believe that teenagers singing childrens songs is helping them become productive adults and helping them to get over whatever "addictions" that you think that they may have :question:
2. Do you think that not having any contact with their families helps bring the kids closer to their parents :question:
3. Don't you think that maybe the reason for alot of your daughters problems stem from you being a "victimized addict with a disease" (your words, not mine) :question:
I am not trying to attack you, I am just really interested in hearing your answers.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 03:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 12:33:00, DC wrote:
"Cayo,
I would expect nothing less from you than what you said. You have met my expectations.
Glad I didn't disappoint! :rofl:
Quote
As i said in my origional post, I would appreciate comments, not you all telling me that I was making this huge fucking mistake. Some conversation.
Yeah, it's a bitch when someone says something you don't like, huh? :roll: The "strangeness" you refer to is designed to stop all critical thinking. That's the problem!! You don't give a shit about HOW it works or WHAT the fallout might be from this lovely process.
Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 04:04:00 PM
Your right and I'm wrong. Are you happy now? I am. I did not start the name calling, it was Cayo, Greg and I think you stopped short of calling me an idiot, which I am not. I know what you are saying about GT, but these things aren't done anymore. I know plenty of staff and ex-staff on a personal basis. You cannot hide these behaviors. What happened to you and your friends, i am truly sorry for. These things you talk about were unjust. Just because I do not share your opinions does not mean that I am not right.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:05:00 PM
And suffering is not a badge of honor. Experiencing tyranny does not deserve a bow or a kiss. The honor is in removing the stumbling stone. The honor is in the impolite destruction of tyranny through honest, powerful dialogue - not etiquette. Not political correctness.
Maximus
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 04:08:00 PM
You missed the point, all you want to do is battle. I feel for you, but you just seem so angry. If you are so angry about things that I have said, then you must know that you have a problem which needs resolving and it IS NOT PRESENT DAY GT!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:10:00 PM
You're gonna have some 'splainin' to do to your daughter in the years to come. Hope you remember these conversations.
Republican n. A liberty despising, money worshiping, control freak. Democrat n. A liberty despising, social engineering, control freak.
-- Anonymous
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:08:00, DC wrote:
"Cayo,
You missed the point, all you want to do is battle. I feel for you, but you just seem so angry. If you are so angry about things that I have said, then you must know that you have a problem which needs resolving and it IS NOT PRESENT DAY GT!"
Actually I'm not that pissed off. The majority of my posts with the venom are "said" with a HUGE eye roll attached :rofl:
When a well-packaged web of lies
has been sold gradually to the masses
over generations, the truth will seem
utterly preposterous and its speaker
a raving lunatic.
--Dresden James
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 04:14:00 PM
i am moronic because i do not share your opinion? Good reason! I would hate to be one of your beautiful children.
And don't worry about my daughter, she will be much better balanced then you would appear to be.
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 04:17:00 PM
What am I clueless about? I am a grown man with many years of recovery, good knowledge about addiction and experienced with one of your so-called cults. Because I do not agree with you has nothing to do with me sticking my head in the sand. When is the last time, how many years has it been since you were involved in your program? How do you know that you are so right and I am so wrong?
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:14:00, DC wrote:
"Cayo,
i am moronic because i do not share your opinion? Good reason! I would hate to be one of your beautiful children.
And don't worry about my daughter, she will be much better balanced then you would appear to be."
No, you're moronic because you don't see anyting unusual about a kid pulling his hair out. You're moronic because you take a completely closed mind to anything that contradicts your beloved program as evidenced by the fact that you didn't even BOTHER to look at any of the links people directed you too.
As for worrying about your daughter??? Can't help it, I'm an extremely compassionate person.
And suffering is not a badge of honor. Experiencing tyranny does not deserve a bow or a kiss. The honor is in removing the stumbling stone. The honor is in the impolite destruction of tyranny through honest, powerful dialogue - not etiquette. Not political correctness.
Maximus
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
And thank you, I sincerely appreciate your worry for my daughter. Its a scary world, but right now she is safe!
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 04:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:04:00, DC wrote:
"Sara,
Your right and I'm wrong. Are you happy now? I am. I did not start the name calling, it was Cayo, Greg and I think you stopped short of calling me an idiot, which I am not. I know what you are saying about GT, but these things aren't done anymore. I know plenty of staff and ex-staff on a personal basis. You cannot hide these behaviors. What happened to you and your friends, i am truly sorry for. These things you talk about were unjust. Just because I do not share your opinions does not mean that I am not right. "
Quite happy - but it's got nothing to do with you.
I have really happy days when I hear from a parent who investigated the facts they were given, and pulled their kid out of a gulag.
You started the insults long before Cayo and Greg showed up.
I posted this:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=U#78657 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8009&forum=13&Sort=U#78657)
A simple series of questions.
You responded with this:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=U#78662 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8009&forum=13&Sort=U#78662)
where you told me to take "the chip off my shoulder" and you said you were dealing with a spoiled self centered child who was never wrong.
What in that post led you to believe I am/was a spoiled child chip on my shoulder?
I can go back and list the posts for you and anyone who wants to read thru them, but you can just use the "sort up" feature, because contrary to your belief, I do have better things to do than backtrack and copy/paste.
But in your next post, you said my argument was ridiculous and bogus, and that I was a fraud.
And you never did expound on how any of that makes me a fraud, or how the service employed bathroom restrictions.
You keep saying we're wrong, but you haven't really spelled out where anything is different. You also didn't respond to everything I said about YOUR life being ass-ended by GT. Why not?
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:25:00, DC wrote:
And thank you, I sincerely appreciate your worry for my daughter. Its a scary world, but right now she is safe!"
No, she's not. She's being exposed to a thought control cult. You don't seem to understand that it is the PROCESS of how they bring about change in these kids that is damaging right from the goddamn get-go. But, you're head is still stuck in that sand so unfortunately for your daughter, you'll never see it because you've got your "fix" for her.
"Primum non nocere"
The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.
George Washington
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:26:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
You started the insults long before Cayo and Greg showed up.
I posted this:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=U#78657 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8009&forum=13&Sort=U#78657)
A simple series of questions.
You responded with this:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=U#78662 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8009&forum=13&Sort=U#78662)
where you told me to take "the chip off my shoulder" and you said you were dealing with a spoiled self centered child who was never wrong.
What in that post led you to believe I am/was a spoiled child chip on my shoulder?
I can go back and list the posts for you and anyone who wants to read thru them, but you can just use the "sort up" feature, because contrary to your belief, I do have better things to do than backtrack and copy/paste.
But in your next post, you said my argument was ridiculous and bogus, and that I was a fraud.
And you never did expound on how any of that makes me a fraud, or how the service employed bathroom restrictions.
You keep saying we're wrong, but you haven't really spelled out where anything is different. You also didn't respond to everything I said about YOUR life being ass-ended by GT. Why not?
"
Thank you Sara! It's really exhausting to try adn have a coherent conversation with someone while their head is so firmly implanted in the ground! :rofl:
Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits.
--Dan Barker, author and former evangelist
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 04:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:17:00, DC wrote:
"Sara,
What am I clueless about? I am a grown man with many years of recovery, good knowledge about addiction and experienced with one of your so-called cults. Because I do not agree with you has nothing to do with me sticking my head in the sand.
I think Cayo said that, not me.
Quote
When is the last time, how many years has it been since you were involved in your program? How do you know that you are so right and I am so wrong?"
I was in LIFE 21 years ago. I spent four months hiding behind my hair so I could just have some private space to cry...well, I tried to anyway.
They would "stand me up", and demand to know my "drug list". I would meekly say "I don't have one" - the crowd would roar. Arms would start flailing wildly with everyone vying to take their best shot at me. They taunted, teased, actually TOLD me they "found a stash", and when I would go back to crying behind my hair, two girls on either side of me would lock arms with me, while a girl behind me would yank my hair out of my face, and pull it back so I had to look up, or lose clumps of hair.
All that for following the first and most important rule: Honesty.
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 04:40:00 PM
Just because I was trying to tell you that they don't drink the kool-aid anymore, you guys attacked me.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 09:48:00, DC wrote:
"I'm sorry Sara,
I do not buy the conspiracy theory. There is just too much evidence to the contrary."
No conspiracy, just people accepting the status quo. One of my favorite bumper sticker is "QUESTION AUTHORITY".
And the "evidence" you speak of is questionable, at BEST. Most of it anecdotal.
I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves, it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly those who desire it for others. Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.
--Abraham Lincoln
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:40:00, DC wrote:
Just because I was trying to tell you that they don't drink the kool-aid anymore, you guys attacked me. "
No, again it's your closed mindedness and refusal to even ENTERTAIN the idea that there MIGHT be something wrong with the PROCESS in which change is brought about.
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 04:47:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 04:47:00 PM
Then when people responded, you attacked more. Then people started calling you an asshole and ostrich, rightly so.
What did you expect? Program type conversations don't buy you friends in the real world. Every day people engage in thoughtfull disagreements on fornits. It is people like you that come here and incite people and then scream victim that start flame wars.
You are also factually way over your head. The people here know more about the subject matter than you could ever imagine. Your only weapon is to try to belittle what people say, and frankly we have seen that game played out over and over and your can't get it over on us.
The thread started out with two very concerned ex program people responding kindly to your query....you amped up the volume by getting insulting.
That is the facts...you are responsible soley for what happened and no one here feels sorry for you. If you don't want to here what he have to say, stick your finger in your ears and go away. If you are interested, try a different approach because with this one you fell flat on your face.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:47:00, DC wrote:
"And I would suggest that if the evidence were red you woild swear it was green"
Did you not see the words entertain and might typed in ALL CAPS????
Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 04:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:40:00, DC wrote:
"I did not insult you, i merely stated the facts. You are talking about situations that happened to you 20-30 years ago, I am talking about my experience which is right now. You ahve no idea what you are talking about. For every kid that ever had a bad experience with you I can show you a kid that will say it wasn't so bad. So yes, you are a fraud and yes your argument is bogus, because your argument is ancient history. And when I talked about name calling, well I didn't see anything like that in my previous posts. I am not mean-spirited.
Just because I was trying to tell you that they don't drink the kool-aid anymore, you guys attacked me. "
Maybe you need to go back and read your own posts.
So let me get this straight - I'm a fraud because my experience is 20 years old? You need a dictionary with your new set of reading glasses, guy.
Okay, so how do you explain the "Naked Crusader" incident which Trevor Aaronson detailed that happened in 1997? Still too old for you?
I wonder what happened to those kids that attacked the poor newcomer. Are you quite certain they're not on staff right now?
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 04:53:00 PM
Please get yourselves some real help before it is too late.
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 04:54:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:55:00 PM
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Perl Services
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 04:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 13:53:00, DC wrote:
These kids are in my home almost every night. i love them.
Yeah, well my parents 'loved' all the kids who passed through our home too. But when they woke up and realized what had actually happened, the guilt was almost overwhelming.
Quote
Please get yourselves some real help before it is too late."
Thanks but no thanks. Don't need it. I've had about all the fucking "help" I can stand.
I don't believe in Jesus.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 05:04:00 PM
You are laughable. Everything is about ulterior motives. I really didn't come here and post with this in mind. Yes, that is what it has turned into, but not my intention.
Again, there you go with your conspiracy theories!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:04:00, DC wrote:
"Cayo,
You are laughable. Everything is about ulterior motives. I really didn't come here and post with this in mind. Yes, that is what it has turned into, but not my intention.
Again, there you go with your conspiracy theories!"
Again, no conspiracy. Just a pathetic man who feels the need to pick at a scab to reinforce his simple minded beliefs.
If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:09:00 PM
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
Better yet, show it to your daughter and see what SHE thinks of it. :rofl: :rofl:
The introduction of a Creator has done our independence no good.
--Gore Vidal, author
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 05:10:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:04:00, DC wrote:
"Cayo,
You are laughable. Everything is about ulterior motives. I really didn't come here and post with this in mind. Yes, that is what it has turned into, but not my intention.
Again, there you go with your conspiracy theories!"
I'm glad I can be here to amuse you. :wink: )
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:10:00, DC wrote:
"Wow, you are bitter aren't you?"
You bet your ass I am when it comes to this. With good goddamn reason.
In the rest of my life I'm a pretty easy going, funloving person. The only time my ire gets up is when dealing with ostriches such as yourself.
He that will not reason is a bigot; he who cannot is a fool; and he who dares not, is a slave.
--William Drummond (1585-1640)
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 05:16:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:18:00 PM
People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security.
--Benjamin Franklin
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:16:00, DC wrote:
"Give me a break and quit being so melodramatic.
"
Fuck off you sanctimonious, pathetic man. You have no idea what drama is until you've been sat on by 5 people for hours on end not being able to breathe, had them spit in your face, isolate you from all not "approved" by staff (including 'questionable' :roll: family), watched them break the legs of 2 girls, watched 12 year olds be called the most vile names you can imagine, having it drummed into your head day after day after day that you're going to DIE without the program. You're damn fucking right I'm bitter asshole!!!!!!!
No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war.
--Ludwig von Mises
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 05:25:00 PM
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 05:27:00 PM
YOU ARE A PIECE OF SHIT ASSHOLE AND I'M SICK OF YOUR NAME CALLING
GO TO HELL YOU PATHETIC FUCKING LOSER
ROT IN HELL BITCH
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:25:00, DC wrote:
"for someone that leads a happy and successful life, I wonder what is your beef??"
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Let me see if I can say this s-l-o-w-l-y enough for you to understand. IT'S STILL GOING ON TODAY. Maybe the physical abuse isn't to the same degree because of the publicity of OUR programs, but the damage to the psyche is far longer lasting and, IMO, far more dangerous.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys
--P.J. O'Rourke
Post by: DC on February 01, 2005, 05:32:00 PM
I FEEL BETTER NOW. YOU CAN HAVE YOU STUPID FUCKING BOARD BACK BECAUSE YOU ARE ALL INSANE.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:27:00, DC wrote:
"FUCK YOU HAPPY GIRL
YOU ARE A PIECE OF SHIT ASSHOLE AND I'M SICK OF YOUR NAME CALLING
GO TO HELL YOU PATHETIC FUCKING LOSER
ROT IN HELL BITCH"
Right back atcha babe!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
fucking pathetic, neanderthalithic, simple minded, moronic, STUPID, fucking excuse for a man. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
--Hermann Goering, Luftwaffe commander, sentenced to death at Nuremberg
Post by: Anonymous on February 01, 2005, 05:38:00 PM
I sense a pattern here, going way back about 30 years.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:32:00, DC wrote:
"YOU AR SO FULL OF SHIT
I FEEL BETTER NOW. YOU CAN HAVE YOU STUPID FUCKING BOARD BACK BECAUSE YOU ARE ALL INSANE."
Thanks. Don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out DICKLESS!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that
they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.
--Thomas Sowell
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The sad thing is not this little man, but what his daughter is having to deal with. One day she will probably have to outright reject him in order to gain real freedom, then he will blame her.
I sense a pattern here, going way back about 30 years.
"
:nworthy:
Yep, I already told him that we'd be here for her when she needs us down the road.
I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it
--Harry S. Truman
Post by: Anonymous on February 01, 2005, 05:43:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:09:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"Here's a specific link I want to know if you looked at.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
Better yet, show it to your daughter and see what SHE thinks of it. :rofl: :rofl:The introduction of a Creator has done our independence no good.
--Gore Vidal, author
"
Never did get an answer on this.
In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You could only wish you had a dick"
Who me??? Don't need one. Got my husband's. I keep it in my nightstand drawer. It's just too big and heavy for him to haul around with him all the time. :rofl: :rofl:
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
--Albert Einstein
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 05:47:00 PM
Quote
Never did get an answer on this.
Cayo,
That's why you're not allowed any reading material! It would really suck for the program if you got a hold of such information before you were thoroughly indoctrinated!
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 05:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:27:00, DC wrote:
"FUCK YOU HAPPY GIRL
YOU ARE A PIECE OF SHIT ASSHOLE AND I'M SICK OF YOUR NAME CALLING
GO TO HELL YOU PATHETIC FUCKING LOSER
ROT IN HELL BITCH"
Uh oh... looks like the truth does hurt! It may be time for that serenity prayer now. :grin:
_________________
"I was a long time coming
I'll be a long time gone
you've got your whole life to do something
and that's not very long"
- Ani DiFranco[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-01 14:50 ]
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 01, 2005, 05:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 14:47:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
Never did get an answer on this.
Cayo,
That's why you're not allowed any reading material! It would really suck for the program if you got a hold of such information before you were thoroughly indoctrinated!
"
I know!! OMG, when I read this for the first time it blew me away. That's all I could think about. What if I had had this information either while IN there or at least right after I got out. DAMN it would have explained soooooooo much!!!
India Indicas, Mr. Peabody?
-- Sherman
Post by: Anonymous on February 01, 2005, 07:48:00 PM
D.
Post by: GregFL on February 01, 2005, 08:43:00 PM
:grin:
Post by: Antigen on February 01, 2005, 09:06:00 PM
nd think how much fun we all could have had together if we could have talke out in group or going for some fresh air whenever we wanted to w/o getting slammed on the floor. I mean, you take away the coercion and it's just an entirely different kind of activity, isn't it?
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon
Post by: Anonymous on February 01, 2005, 09:26:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 01, 2005, 09:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 18:06:00, Antigen wrote:
"This is fun! This thread is growing faster than the TBPITW thread! Does this prove that rage is more addictive than TBPITW? A
nd think how much fun we all could have had together if we could have talke out in group or going for some fresh air whenever we wanted to w/o getting slammed on the floor. I mean, you take away the coercion and it's just an entirely different kind of activity, isn't it?
Oh GOD, Ginger - Just don't tell us you want to come to meetings next!
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 09:03:00 AM
Rats know when to say when? Kinda blows that whole disease theory, doesn't it?
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 09:17:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 06:03:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"http://www.news.health.ufl.edu/stories/2005/Feb/alcohol%20calories.shtml
Fark??? I saw it this morning on there. YOu beat me to the post!! :grin:
Immortality: A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for, Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud Eternally to die for.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 09:23:00 AM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 09:24:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 06:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"you people are incredibly stupid"
What a witty retort! :rofl: :rofl:
Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow;
He who would search for perls must dive below.
Prolougue (from preface to
the Panther Book)
John Dryden, All for Love, Prolougue
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 09:25:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 06:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"you people are incredibly stupid"
I didn't write it. Cayo didn't...
Why don't you call the Health Sciences Building at the University of Florida, and tell THEM how stupid they are?
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 09:34:00 AM
besides that is not what they are saying...stupid
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 09:37:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 06:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"rats are a convienant source of information when it fits your agenda, but now when it doesn't. read your previous post.
besides that is not what they are saying...stupid"
I was talking about the third paragraph - the one that appears in Pharmacology, Biochem and Behavior. If you read journals carefuly, they reference other journals.
I will try to get the article from PB&B.
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 09:38:00 AM
Now, go test everyone for alcoholism...we have all the proof we need...thats it...yeah.
signed.
Dr. Ling Mendel
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 09:43:00 AM
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_12 ... s.quirkies (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1260357.html?menu=news.quirkies)
http://www.impactlab.com/modules.php?na ... e&sid=4789 (http://www.impactlab.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4789)
:nworthy: :nworthy:
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 09:48:00 AM
Link us to some actual research...that way maybe people will debate you and stop making fun of you. You really are an easy target.
See here is the problem..the beloved stepcraft program, which has infiltrated every aspect of society as relating to alcohol and drugs, is perpetuating a myth that they have found a "gene" that proves alcoholism is a disease. This myth has its roots in providing money for treatment and while it has served them a huge service as relating to funneling money into their coffers, it nevertheless is not grounded in any actual science. You don't "choose" a disease, and you don't treat a "disease" with raps , PB&J sandwiches, singing zippedeedoda and grabbing people by the beltloop.
So the problem is this..the "Disease" theory of addiction is a merely a fabrication designed to have medical insurance respond to treatment. A side benefit is it absolves all responsiblity off of the compulsive drunk and supports the stepcraft vodoo lie that "you are powerless". It has been told so many times it has become an urban myth, a self perpetuating lie.
Getting different kind of rats drunk on ethanol and then attempting to measure their tolerance and propensity to want more is meaningless to my best estimation. Lets get some real science behind the claims.
Com'n, dazzle us with your brilliance.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 09:59:00 AM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 10:01:00 AM
A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 10:04:00 AM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 10:04:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.physiciansnews.com/commentary/298wp.html"
Uh huh....see Greg's post right above yours?? Read it again. :roll: :roll: :roll:
The Internet is now safe for free speech.
-- Christopher A. Hansen on the overturning of the Communications Decency Act
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 10:05:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 10:06:00 AM
Yes, alcoholism is a disease. The craving that an alcoholic feels for alcohol can be as strong as the need for food or water. An alcoholic will continue to drink despite serious family, health, or legal problems.
Like many other diseases, alcoholism is chronic, meaning that it lasts a person's lifetime; it usually follows a predictable course; and it has symptoms. The risk for developing alcoholism is influenced both by a person's genes and by his or her lifestyle. (See also "Publications," Alcohol Alert No. 30: Diagnostic Criteria for Alcohol Abuse and Dependence.)
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 10:07:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 06:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The word alcoholism, as defined by Webster?s New World College Dictionary, is a ?chronic diseased condition marked by psychological and nutritional disorders, marked by that compulsive consumption of and dependence on alcohol? "
You know an older version of the DSM also listed Homosexuality as a disorder. The DSM is a little more scholarly than Websters dictionary.
In Law, there is a method called "Shepardizing" which involves finding a piece of case law that relevant to the case at hand, then making sure that the case hasn't been overturned, thereby rendering it useless.
This goes on in research too. But then again, you really haven't put any real research literature out there - just government and program propoganda.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 10:08:00 AM
Q #3: Is alcoholism inherited?
Research shows that the risk for developing alcoholism does indeed run in families. The genes a person inherits partially explain this pattern, but lifestyle is also a factor. Currently, researchers are working to discover the actual genes that put people at risk for alcoholism. Your friends, the amount of stress in your life, and how readily available alcohol is also are factors that may increase your risk for alcoholism
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 10:09:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 10:10:00 AM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 10:12:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"as a matter of fact, i can supply you all with all the research you could ask for. it is all in my favor by professionals not voodoo practitioners"
Since you're not capable of following simple directions.....here...
Quote
Posted: 2005-02-02 06:48:00 See here is the problem..the beloved stepcraft program, which has infiltrated every aspect of society as relating to alcohol and drugs, is perpetuating a myth that they have found a "gene" that proves alcoholism is a disease. This myth has its roots in providing money for treatment and while it has served them a huge service as relating to funneling money into their coffers, it nevertheless is not grounded in any actual science. You don't "choose" a disease, and you don't treat a "disease" with raps , PB&J sandwiches, singing zippedeedoda and grabbing people by the beltloop.
So the problem is this..the "Disease" theory of addiction is a merely a fabrication designed to have medical insurance respond to treatment. A side benefit is it absolves all responsiblity off of the compulsive drunk and supports the stepcraft vodoo lie that "you are powerless". It has been told so many times it has become an urban myth, a self perpetuating lie.
Truth does not have to be accepted on faith. Scientists do not hold hands every Sunday, singing, "Yes gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! Amen.
--Dan Barker, former evangelist and author
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 10:12:00 AM
Quote
The genes a person inherits partially explain this pattern, but lifestyle is also a factor. Currently, researchers are working to discover the actual genes that put people at risk for alcoholism. Your friends, the amount of stress in your life, and how readily available alcohol is also are factors that may increase your risk for alcoholism"
Yes... PARTIALLY!!!!!
That, coupled with the finding that a rat knows when to quit, really makes the "disease" model suspect.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 10:27:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"i knew you would find a way to argue facts. i was asked to provide info and i did. "
Webster's dictionary is the best you can do?
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 10:28:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"as a matter of fact, i can supply you all with all the research you could ask for. it is all in my favor by professionals not voodoo practitioners"
Bring it!
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 10:38:00 AM
And what makes this statement any more credible than the accepted viewpoint that alcoholism is a disease? Who wrote this? This is an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.
If you want to believe the lie...you will believe the lie.
I would have to say that you are all in a big-time minority with your belief, you know fuck the experts, they don't know what they are talking about but we do. What kind of bullshit is that?
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 10:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.physiciansnews.com/commentary/298wp.html"
Hey, a quote from your article..just for you...
In his 1989 book, Diseasing of America, social psychologist Stanton Peele, Ph.D., argues that AA and for-profit alcohol treatment centers promote the "myth" of alcoholism as a lifelong disease. He contends that the disease concept "excuses alcoholics for their past, present, and future irresponsibility" and points out that most people can overcome addiction on their own. He concludes that the only effective response to alcoholism and other addictions is "to recreate living communities that nurture the human capacity to lead constructive lives."
Surprisingly, Dr. Peele?s view that alcoholism is a personal conduct problem, rather than a disease, seems to be more prevalent among medical practitioners than among the public. A recent Gallop poll found that almost 90 percent of Americans believe that alcoholism is a disease. In contrast, physicians? views of alcoholism were reviewed at an August 1997 conference held by the International Doctors of Alcoholics Anonymous (IDAA). A survey of physicians reported at that conference found that 80 percent of responding doctors perceived alcoholism as simply bad behavior.
Thanks for making our point for us.
:tup:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 10:53:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
""So the problem is this..the "Disease" theory of addiction is a merely a fabrication designed to have medical insurance respond to treatment. A side benefit is it absolves all responsiblity off of the compulsive drunk and supports the stepcraft vodoo lie that "you are powerless". It has been told so many times it has become an urban myth, a self perpetuating lie."
And what makes this statement any more credible than the accepted viewpoint that alcoholism is a disease? Who wrote this? This is an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.
If you want to believe the lie...you will believe the lie.
I would have to say that you are all in a big-time minority with your belief, you know fuck the experts, they don't know what they are talking about but we do. What kind of bullshit is that? "
I just broke out a college textbook. It's entitled "Principles of Neuropsychopharmacology" - ISBN 0-87893-175-9. (C) 1997
In Chapter 15 ("Alcohol") it addresses several aspects of the "Disease Model" vs. the "Moral Model" and the "Behavioral Model"
I can't type the entire chapter to you, but the conclusion is:
"It must be empathsized however that no patho-physiological state has yet been CLEARLY AND CONSISTENTLY associated with alcohol abuse. Moreover, the disease model fails to acknowledge the variey of patterns of alcohol abuse, and places little, if any, importance on environmental factors. Hence, this model suffers from a number of serious problems. (Pages 650 -651.)
Edited for incorrect transcription.
_________________
"I was a long time coming
I'll be a long time gone
you've got your whole life to do something
and that's not very long"
- Ani DiFranco[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-02 07:55 ]
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 10:54:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/faq/q-a.htm"
Right back to Niaaa's unsigned mission statement FAQ,eh.
We are asking for science, Bozo. Bring it. So far you are just proving our point that it doesn't exist.
Link us to the proof of the "alcohol Gene" and a actual scientific support for the disease model of alcoholism. Using these weak definitions, chocolate or anything you compulse over is a "disease".
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 10:56:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"i want to make sure you read the part about "Research Shows"
Q #3: Is alcoholism inherited?
Research shows that the risk for developing alcoholism does indeed run in families. The genes a person inherits partially explain this pattern, but lifestyle is also a factor. Currently, researchers are working to discover the actual genes that put people at risk for alcoholism. Your friends, the amount of stress in your life, and how readily available alcohol is also are factors that may increase your risk for alcoholism"
Great. Again you prove our point.
"researchers are working to discover"
Read it 4 times, then write it tonight in your moral inventory.
how is this for a statemtent.
"researchers are working to discover the moon is green cheese"
same silly nonsensical statement. It means nothing.
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 11:01:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"i knew you would find a way to argue facts. i was asked to provide info and i did. "
No dippy, you haven't complied at all. In fact, I seriously doubt you are able or intellectually capable of following my simple request.
LINK US TO THE SCIENCE THAT THESE WILD CONCLUSIONS ARE BASED ON....IE: "THE ALCOHOL GENE" and or "THE SCIENCE BEHIND ALCOHOL AS A DISEASE".
Hey, since alcoholism is a disease and GT "cures them", maybe we can take cancer patients and make them motivate, drink cool-aide, lock em up and make the write moral inventories...AND CURE THEM!
BRILLIANT...the cure all of all diseases...STEPCRAFT!!!!!!
:silly:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 11:05:00 AM
Quote
Hey, since alcoholism is a disease and GT "cures them", maybe we can take cancer patients and make them motivate, drink cool-aide, lock em up and make the write moral inventories...AND CURE THEM!
That was brilliant, Greg. :nworthy:
I just got a tip from someone who noticed that in the back of their "Blue Book" (The AA Bible) that an interesting quote appears:
"There is one principle that can keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That is contempt prior to investigation." - Herbert Spencer
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 11:05:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
GREG WROTE
_______________________________
""So the problem is this..the "Disease" theory of addiction is a merely a fabrication designed to have medical insurance respond to treatment. A side benefit is it absolves all responsiblity off of the compulsive drunk and supports the stepcraft vodoo lie that "you are powerless". It has been told so many times it has become an urban myth, a self perpetuating lie."
__________________________________
And what makes this statement any more credible than the accepted viewpoint that alcoholism is a disease? Who wrote this? This is an opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.
If you want to believe the lie...you will believe the lie.
I would have to say that you are all in a big-time minority with your belief, you know fuck the experts, they don't know what they are talking about but we do. What kind of bullshit is that? "
Because genius, you make an assertion "alcoholism is a disease" then...get ready for this groundbreaking revelation....
THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU TO BACK IT UP.
Now, I know that is a shock, that people may actually challenge your urban myths, but we have. We are calling bullshit on you. Now, we are telling you this...SHOW US. Don't link us to organizations and government entities repeating the myth, show us THE SCIENCE. the term "DISEASE is an actual term that has a scientific meaning. Show us. Don't expand the meaning of the term, show us how, where and why it is a disease.
Thank you in advance. The check is in the mail.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:10:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:12:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:16:00 AM
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa18.htm (http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/alerts/l/blnaa18.htm)
http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa48.htm (http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa48.htm)
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 11:17:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 07:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.physiciansnews.com/commentary/298wp.html"
and, surprises of surprises, we find this statement in your "proof"
Based on my experiences working in the addiction field for the past 10 years, I believe ....
what you linked us to was the plea of a stepcraft worker, probably a TC employee, to his colleges to adopt the "disease" theory of addiction, and he only used appeals to emotion to do so, not a shred of science.
Fortunately, according to this article, 80% of doctors refuse to buy the lie. Probably because most doctors have their belief system grounded in science.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:18:00 AM
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 11:18:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 08:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Don't think so"
Dont you really mean "don't think"?
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 11:19:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 08:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://alcoholism.about.com/od/genetics/a/blacer041215.htm"
Well, at least it's science. But it's still inconclusive:
"This manuscript provides further evidence that how one responds to alcohol is inherited," said Swift. "However, it should be noted that the increased risk for alcoholism does not mean that someone with the G allele will necessarily become an alcoholic. The development of alcoholism is only partially determined by heredity."
So that makes the phrase "Alcoholism is a disease" inaccurate, no?
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:19:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:24:00 AM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 11:26:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 08:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I would really like to know the reasoning for your obsession to disprove alcoholism as a disease concept. I know what you will say, that its all about money. Do you not have a shred of non-cynical reasoning capabilities that you would allow this to sink in? I mean really, it doesn't affect you so why do you hold on so tightly? Apparently you are not addicts and you feel you were abused (some 30 years ago), but that does not give you a very good reason for such an inflammed opinion."
I'm just obsessed with the truth... and the fact that I have to pay taxes to pay for "treatment" that doesn't work.
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 11:32:00 AM
Science does not support the disease theory of addiction. I don't believe it. I think it is a dangerous social vehicle for forced treatment.
When real science comes along and can conclusively show it to be true, I will admit I'm wrong.
That good enough for you? In the meanwhile...chew on this.
"The results of this research do not provide ready support for the disease theory of alcoholism. Dr. Vaillant finds that more than half of the alcoholics in the inner city group evolved out of their drinking problems, generally without the assistance of treatment. He finds strong evidence in the inner city group for sociocultural causality in alcoholism. For example, Irish American subjects were seven times more likely to manifest alcohol dependence than subjects of Mediterranean descent. Dr. Vaillant also finds alcoholism running in families, which he uses as evidence of genetic causality, although he concedes that he cannot separate environmental and genetic factors in family similarities. Indeed, he specifically rebuts the idea that those with alcoholic relatives manifest drinking problems at an earlier age, as genetic theories have predicted, saying, "At the present time, a conservative view of the role of genetic factors in alcoholism seems appropriate." However, since Dr. Vaillant reports twice at other points that "genetic factors play a significant role in alcoholism," he creates an impression that is at odds with his own research.Dr. Vaillant can be quoted to good effect on both sides of other issues in alcoholism, including the inflammatory question of controlled drinking. He says, "There appeared to be a point of no return beyond which efforts to return to social drinking became analogous to driving a car without a spare tire. Disaster was simply a matter of time." Yet he uncovers a substantial minority of alcohol abusers who returned to moderate drinking. (Dr. Vaillant actually reports two somewhat different figures for a return to moderate drinking among the inner city group and never gives a figure for the college population.) Alcohol abuse is not the same thing as alcoholism; Dr. Vaillant makes clear that only some alcohol abusers are alcoholics, but he also demonstrates that shadings between these categories are gradual and not well defined. Even so, one-fifth of the returned-to-moderate drinkers Dr. Vaillant finds in his study had been categorized as alcoholic according to psychiatric definitions.... Dr. Vaillant reports that 95 percent of the patients treated at his clinic, where A.A. attendance was compulsory, relapsed following treatment. After two and eight years, they showed no greater progress than comparable groups of untreated alcoholics. In acknowledging this, Dr. Vaillant confronts the dilemma of how to justify his faith in the efficacy of therapy. His resolution is to encourage the therapist not to interfere with the natural healing process."
http://www.peele.net/lib/vaillant.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/vaillant.html)
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:36:00 AM
Sorry Greg, good try, the burdon of proof is on YOU. You cannot prove that alcoholism is NOT a disease. All you provide are opinions.
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 11:36:00 AM
http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing.html)
comments on the book
"Commonly accepted ideas about alcoholism and other addictions are almost entirely without scientific basis. ?Neil A. Kurtzman, M.D., Arnett Professor of Medicine, and Chairman, Department of Internal Medicine, Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center.
"Peele makes it abundantly clear that the disease model of addiction, the ideology that currently reigns over the American addiction treatment industry, is basically an emperor without clothes. By placing addictive behaviors in the context of other problems of living, Peele emphasizes personal responsibility for one's habits. His views, well documented with timely references to new scientific data, contrasts sharply with the biological determinism of the disease model, ?G. Alan Marlatt, Ph.D., Director, Addictive Behaviors Research Center,
"A courageous indictment of the destructive mindset that all deviant behavior is a disease. Peele offers mindful alternatives to those suffering from addictions and to professionals seeking to help them."
?Ellen Langer, Ph.D., professor of psychology, Harvard University, and author of Mindfulness
"Stanton Peele is the latest in a long and worthy line of American contrarians unwilling to accept the status quo, especially when it is the product of wishful thinking, not empirical research. In this book, Peele challenges us to examine our most fervently held beliefs on the causes and cures of the addictive disorders?and urges us to modify them, when the impelling logic of the data demands."
?Peter E. Nathan, Ph.D., Starr Professor and Director, Center of Alcohol Studies, Rutgers University.
"Peele's is a voice of sanity on a topic where confusion and false doctrine reign today. His book addresses a subject of urgent importance in America. Peele brings to the task many years of expertise, as well as plenty of common-sense insight. It should have a major influence in redefining America's views on alcoholism and addiction generally."
?Herbert Fingarette, Ph.D., professor of philosophy, University of California
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 11:39:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 08:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Truth??? You can't handle the TRUTH!
Sorry Greg, good try, the burdon of proof is on YOU. You cannot prove that alcoholism is NOT a disease. All you provide are opinions."
Hehehe...you really believe that is the way things work, you make a claim and then if it can't be disproved, it is true?
Okay using your logic. I will make a statement and put the burden on you to disprove it. If you can't, than its true.
"an invisible monster lives on Venus and eats rocks".
Go ahead, disprove it or its true!
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:41:00 AM
"Foreword (1996) - Stanton's review of George Vaillant's "The Natural History of Alcoholism" revealed that the emperor was naked, and that the book was intellectually dishonest. Vaillant systematically created summaries that disputed his own data, while citing cases selectively to try to support what he perceived to be the safe positions to take. As a result of Stanton's review, Dr. Vaillant has for over a dozen years systematically attacked Stanton in speeches and workshops he gives around the nation, trying to square the circle by compulsively reinterpreting his (Vaillant's) data to show that alcoholics never resume controlled drinking."
What was that, "intellectially dishonest"?
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 11:43:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 08:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Truth??? You can't handle the TRUTH!
Sorry Greg, good try, the burdon of proof is on YOU. You cannot prove that alcoholism is NOT a disease. All you provide are opinions."
This is getting ridiculous. You've been given actual science performed by professional researchers, and it's YOU who refuse to believe.
You expect everyone else to have an open mind, yet you rebut everything with a personal attack.
It's a free country, guy. If you want to live your life in a virtual prison of being told how to live, unable to make your own choices, that's fine by me.
You have the info. Do with it what you will.
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 11:45:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 08:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"why didn't you disclose the forward of the origional article you posted? Does not support your expert?
"Foreword (1996) - Stanton's review of George Vaillant's "The Natural History of Alcoholism" revealed that the emperor was naked, and that the book was intellectually dishonest. Vaillant systematically created summaries that disputed his own data, while citing cases selectively to try to support what he perceived to be the safe positions to take. As a result of Stanton's review, Dr. Vaillant has for over a dozen years systematically attacked Stanton in speeches and workshops he gives around the nation, trying to square the circle by compulsively reinterpreting his (Vaillant's) data to show that alcoholics never resume controlled drinking."
What was that, "intellectially dishonest"?
"
You are joking, right? That further proves my point.
Do you have a problem with comprehension? So far, you are you own worst enemy in this debate.
:grin:
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:46:00 AM
Yes I find it ridiculous as well. I have a personal stake in this, you just have an axe to grind.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:47:00 AM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 11:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 08:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Show me the "scientific research" that you talk about. You have only shown me opinions. Not one hard fact that disproves the claim of disease, not one.
Yes I find it ridiculous as well. I have a personal stake in this, you just have an axe to grind."
Did you miss something? I gave you this:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#80022 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8009&forum=13&Sort=D&start=20#80022)
And Greg gave you stuff from Peele and others.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 11:52:00 AM
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/87/99592.htm (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/87/99592.htm)
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 12:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 08:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You want proof? Here it is!
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/87/99592.htm (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/87/99592.htm)"
This proves a LINK to an alcohol PREFERENCE.
If you drink, and you get drunk, and it's making it so you can't function - PUT THE GODDAMNED BOTTLE DOWN! Christ, is that so hard!?
I hate to think that you're kid is in GT because YOU had problems with booze, and you're hoping for some kind of vaccine.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:01:00 PM
Alcoholism, also known as ?alcohol dependence,? is a disease that includes four symptoms:
? Craving: A strong need, or compulsion, to drink.
? Loss of control: The inability to limit one?s drinking on any given occasion.
? Physical dependence: Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety, occur when alcohol use is stopped after a period of heavy drinking.
? Tolerance: The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol in order to ?get high.?
People who are not alcoholic sometimes do not understand why an alcoholic can?t just ?use a little willpower? to stop drinking. However, alcoholism has little to do with willpower. Alcoholics are in the grip of a powerful ?craving,? or uncontrollable need, for alcohol that overrides their ability to stop drinking. This need can be as strong as the need for food or water.
Although some people are able to recover from alcoholism without help, the majority of alcoholics need assistance. With treatment and support, many individuals are able to stop drinking and rebuild their lives.
Many people wonder why some individuals can use alcohol without problems but others cannot. One important reason has to do with genetics. Scientists have found that having an alcoholic family member makes it more likely that if you choose to drink you too may develop alcoholism. Genes, however, are not the whole story. In fact, scientists now believe that certain factors in a person?s environment influence whether a person with a genetic risk for alcoholism ever develops the disease. A person?s risk for developing alcoholism can increase based on the person?s environment, including where and how he or she lives; family, friends, and culture; peer pressure; and even how easy it is to get alcohol.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:03:00 PM
May 26, 2004 -- A new study links a gene to alcohol addiction -- backing up a long-recognized pattern showing that alcoholism runs in families.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 12:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sara, why can't you admit that you are wrong? Addiction is a disease. And you will never understand this because YES, it is so hard to just put the bottle down. nearly impossible. I really don't expect you to understand this, because obviously you are not afected, but this doesn't make you right.
May 26, 2004 -- A new study links a gene to alcohol addiction -- backing up a long-recognized pattern showing that alcoholism runs in families.
"
You know, maybe I do have a personal stake in this. Here are the alcoholics in my immediate family:
1. Maternal Grandfather
2. Uncle T - Mom's Brother
3. Mother
2 of 3 of my Grandfather's kids were alcoholics.
4. Paternal Granfather
5. Paternal Grandmother
6. Father
7. Aunt E - Father's sister
8. Uncle D - Father's brother
9. Aunt M - Father's sister
4 of 7 of my paternal grandparent's kids were alcoholics. 2 of my father's four kids are.
Now if this is DEFINITELY an interited disease, how do you account for the people who are not alcoholics?
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 12:16:00 PM
Platelet serotonin-2A receptors: a potential biological marker for suicide behavior.
Peripheral adrenergic receptors in affective illness and schizophrenia
Platelet serotonin-2 receptor binding sites in depression and suicide
Platelet 5HT2 receptors in obsessive-compulsive disorders
Platelet 5HT2 receptors in schizophrenia: effects of illness and neuroleptic treatment.
Platelet serotonin-2A receptors: a potential biological marker for suicide behavior
Adrenergic receptor subtypes in stress-induced behavioral depression.
Potential role of the gene transcription factor cyclic AMP-responsive element binding protein in ethanol withdrawal-related anxiety. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 288:866-878.
Involvement of the cyclic AMP-responsive element binding protein gene transcription factor in genetic preference for alcohol drinking behavior
Apparently almost all abherrent behavior according to him is genetic.
Now, here is how it works. He does his research. He publishes his finding. It is peer reviewed. The experiments are repeated by other scientists. Then it becomes accepted science. until then, it is just clinical research. Inconclusive. This is from your own HERE IT IS! link....
"Findings published in the December 2004 issue of Alcoholism: Clinical & Experimental Research indicate...
Get that term...it has meaning.. Clinical & experimental Research indicate?
Okay, lets go a step further...
For this study, participants comprised 38 students (20 male, 18 female) at the University of Colorado, 21 to 29 years of age, who indicated drinking patterns classified as moderate to heavy. Participants were either homozygous for the A allele (n=23) or heterozygous (n=15). Each received intravenous doses of alcohol that were designed to cause breath alcohol concentration (BAC) levels of .02, .04, and .06. Researchers measured subjective intoxication, stimulation, sedation, and mood states at baseline and at each of the three BAC levels.....Results indicate that individuals with the G allele had higher subjective feelings of intoxication, stimulation, sedation, and happiness across trials as compared to participants with the A allele.
Okay, now a study of 38 young adults who are given intoxicating levels of alcohol and then interviewed may be conclusive to you, and admittely magazine articles may publish it as fact ,but in science it is known as a clinical trial. It is not "proof".
I know that is a little beyond what your field of knowledge.. but nevertheless, that is the case. He has many hurdles yet to cross before these finding are accepted as medical and scientific reality.
When and if they are, I it will be interesting, and what it will conclude if true, is that certain people get drunk easier than others and therefore are more prone to alcoholism. It still won't Prove alcoholism is a disease.
Get it?
Probably not.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:19:00 PM
http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/addiction/ber ... sease.html (http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/addiction/berman/neuro/disease.html)
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 12:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So why do you hate them so much? Why can't you see that they had no power over their alcoholism?
Where is your compassion? Why are you so hell bent on your idea? So, there is conflicting evidence. You make it sound like I am wrong, when you really can't prove that you are right. And given the fact that so many of your family are alcoholics, should lend even more credence to my belief.
First of all - WHERE did I say I hate them?? You make no sense.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:28:00 PM
Sara, the fact that not everyone in your family is not an alcoholic does not mean that it is not inherited. I thought you were smarter than that. Just because Uncle Billy is bald doesn't mean his son will be bald.
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 12:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So why do you hate them so much? Why can't you see that they had no power over their alcoholism? Where is your compassion? Why are you so hell bent on your idea? So, there is conflicting evidence. You make it sound like I am wrong, when you really can't prove that you are right. And given the fact that so many of your family are alcoholics, should lend even more credence to my belief.
http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/addiction/ber ... sease.html (http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/addiction/berman/neuro/disease.html)
"
Now i hate them?
Oh fuck, I am starting to get it...you just have no experience in debate, do you? You don't understand how this works.
Okay, I am going to help you here. What you normally do in these conversations is shift the subject by attacking the person, which has caused people to lash back..
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.php (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.php)
Then you appeal to authority with websites that don't have the scientific background you have been burdened with providing..
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/aa.php (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/aa.php)
What you do when you tell us basically "everyone knows it is a disease, therefore prove it is not is called an appeal to popularity
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/pop.php (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/pop.php)
and what you are doing above envoking my lack of compassion is called an appeal to pity.
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ap.php (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ap.php)
and with these statements you are again confusing who has the burden of proof in this converastion:
"You make it sound like I am wrong, when you really can't prove that you are right."
"And you will NOT prove that it isn't a disease!"
I offer this information in the hopes that it helps your future online endeavors.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:30:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:33:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 12:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I say hate because you definitly have family issues. If the disease is so prevelant in your own family and you still cannot see it would tend to make me think you hate them, and don't want to recognize that their disease is beyond there own ability to just say "put the bottle down"."
well, I love my family all of them.
explain this since you are so fond bringing the conversation into the realm of anecedotal information.
My stepfather for 30 years was a happy functional drunk from the bottle alcoholic. He mainained a job, a house, a wife until the day he retired, however Vodka bottles were hidden in his trunk, in the back of the toilet, everywhere. He would constantly be drunk on vodka and he didn't even bother to mix it, not only that, he used cheap POPOFF vodka to save money because he drank so much of it.
At age 67 he went involuntarily into inpatient TC treatment. He came out severely depressed and has since, and NEVER BEFORE, been medicated with anti depresents.
He stayed "Dry" for about 10 years. Nowdays he has about two glasses of red wine per day. Oh yeah, he is 87 now, and has never gone back to his old ways. HOWEVER, he requires constant depression medication from his stint in stepcraft treatment.
According to the addiction model of alcohol, he should be slugging back vodka again out of the bottle. Why hasnt he?
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 12:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg, you have not proved anything with your so called scientific data. I really don't have the experience of debating, you are right. I am in this conversation because I am passionate about it, not because I like to argue (like you). You are a no-it-all asshole."
Er, that would be a Know-it-all asshole.
Just trying to help.
:grin:
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 12:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg, you have not proved anything with your so called scientific data.
And, please get this one...
I HAVE SUBMITTED NONE, ZERO, ZIPPO scientific data.
You just don't understand. I am Sorry for you and the way you are coming across here. You are way over your head.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:41:00 PM
Your grandfather is not an alcoholic. he is an abuser of alohol. That is how i explain it.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 12:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I say hate because you definitly have family issues. If the disease is so prevelant in your own family and you still cannot see it would tend to make me think you hate thm, and don't want to recognize that their disease is beyond there own ability to just say "put the bottle down"."
That wasn't the issue. The issue was: How can you say, in no UNCERTAIN terms that "alcoholism is a disease" - and you're the one who brought up genetics.
I wrote that to you to show you that there ARE uncertain terms, and you blast us for "opinion" yet, all you've given is opinion yourself.
Now, if you must know the deal with my family members - the only TRUE alkies in the bunch are my father's son (my half brother), and my mother - all they do is drink. They are incapable of holding down jobs, and are essentially fuckups.
All the rest were LABELED alcoholics because at one time or another, they drank a little too much.
With the exception of the two with real drinking problems (borne of self control problems), all the rest put down the bottle, got their shit together, and .. get this....
THEY ALL STILL DRINK!
Yep, that's right - this past Christmas, we all enjoyed wine with our dinner and had some after dinner drinks as well. On Monday, everyone returned to their lives without guilt, or a bottle in their grasp. All able to say "enough for me", and we'll do it again sometime.
How do you explain that?
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:46:00 PM
It is I that feel sorry for you and how you would sound to "normal" people. You are self-righteous and suffer from a tremendous superiority complex, no doubt hidding the fact that you feel less than.
Face it you are a big pussy that can't let life go on because you think someone wronged you 30 years ago.
I feel sorry for you!
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:47:00 PM
The only way to describe that is that none of you are alcoholics, or is that too simple for you?
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 12:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I guess i need to eat some fish for brain-power at lunch today.
Your grandfather is not an alcoholic. he is an abuser of alohol. That is how i explain it."
hehehe. That is the funniest comment yet. He drank VODKA FROM THE BOTTLE FOR 30 YEARS EVERYDAY. He wouldn't go an hour without excusing himself to go hunt down a hidden bottle, no matter what the occasion.
You are a funny guy!
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 12:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That would be because you are such a brainiac loser that is still mad at mommy & daddy for putting you in the SEED. You are just too much of a pussy to get over your tratment experience.
It is I that feel sorry for you and how you would sound to "normal" people. You are self-righteous and suffer from a tremendous superiority complex, no doubt hidding the fact that you feel less than.
Face it you are a big pussy that can't let life go on because you think someone wronged you 30 years ago.
I feel sorry for you!"
Ok, you once said that I'm smarter than anyone else, and now Greg is a "brainiac loser" :rofl:
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 12:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That would be because you are such a brainiac loser that is still mad at mommy & daddy for putting you in the SEED. You are just too much of a pussy to get over your tratment experience.
It is I that feel sorry for you and how you would sound to "normal" people. You are self-righteous and suffer from a tremendous superiority complex, no doubt hidding the fact that you feel less than.
Face it you are a big pussy that can't let life go on because you think someone wronged you 30 years ago.
I feel sorry for you!"
Oh you are so funny. I count as my good friends several former staff member supporters of the seed. I am on good terms with a director of a current seed spinoff.I am close with both of my parents. You couldn't be more wrong...AGAIN. Ever looked at my website, The seed discusssion forum?
You have no arrows in your quiver except attack when wounded.
Your a funny guy!
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 12:52:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 12:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sara,
The only way to describe that is that none of you are alcoholics, or is that too simple for you?"
Why not? We have the same genes.
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 12:53:00 PM
Hey, whatever works for you.
:grin:
Post by: Erinys on February 02, 2005, 12:57:00 PM
When Fords and Lincolns was settin' the pace?
I'm here to say
Someone was drivin' that Model AA
But my friends, yer gonna drive him to drinkin'
If ya don't stop doin that Hot Rod thinkin'
No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war.
--Ludwig von Mises
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 12:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:53:00, GregFL wrote:
"So, you get to call yourself an alcoholic only when you are to weak and lilly-livered to stop compulively drinking? That is your definition?
Hey, whatever works for you.
:grin: "
I call "alcoholism" the health problems that happen when one does not put the bottle down.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 01:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:57:00, Erinys wrote:
"Have you heard this story of the Hot Rod Race
When Fords and Lincolns was settin' the pace?
I'm here to say
Someone was drivin' that Model AA
But my friends, yer gonna drive him to drinkin'
If ya don't stop doin that Hot Rod thinkin'
:rofl:
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 01:04:00 PM
Thanks to all, especially our anon poppa. You have been hysterically funny in your efforts to discredit those here that lambasted your feeble attempts at a logical argument.
:wave:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 01:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 10:04:00, GregFL wrote:
"This thread, while immensely fun and entertaining, has ceased to have any real value. Sorry, but I have other commitments and must respectivelly bail out.
Thanks to all, especially our anon poppa. You have been hysterically funny in your efforts to discredit those here that lambasted your feeble attempts at a logical argument.
:wave: "
That whole law of diminishing returns... I hear ya!
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 01:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:52:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sara,
The only way to describe that is that none of you are alcoholics, or is that too simple for you?"
Why not? We have the same genes.
"
Okay, one more...if only for this.
:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 01:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 08:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"why didn't you disclose the forward of the origional article you posted? Does not support your expert?
"Foreword (1996) - Stanton's review of George Vaillant's "The Natural History of Alcoholism" revealed that the emperor was naked, and that the book was intellectually dishonest. Vaillant systematically created summaries that disputed his own data, while citing cases selectively to try to support what he perceived to be the safe positions to take. As a result of Stanton's review, Dr. Vaillant has for over a dozen years systematically attacked Stanton in speeches and workshops he gives around the nation, trying to square the circle by compulsively reinterpreting his (Vaillant's) data to show that alcoholics never resume controlled drinking."
What was that, "intellectially dishonest"?
"
This and your response about Greg's step-father are just about the funniest damn things I've read in a long time. :rofl: :rofl:
btw....intellectually :lol:
When a well-packaged web of lies
has been sold gradually to the masses
over generations, the truth will seem
utterly preposterous and its speaker
a raving lunatic.
--Dresden James
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 02:06:00 PM
It is I that feel sorry for you network of 3. The only three people that post their horrors. That I find very funny. Face it, your dedication to discrediting fine treatment institutions is going unheard, except for the few that wander in, like me and discover a whole new sickness.
Fairwell.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 02:17:00 PM
You said that yesterday and then came back. But you're anon today so I could be wrong, but don't think so. Are you really leaving this time?
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 02:17:00 PM
In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 02:18:00 PM
Quote
It is I that feel sorry for you network of 3. The only three people that post their horrors. That I find very funny. Face it, your dedication to discrediting fine treatment institutions is going unheard, except for the few that wander in, like me and discover a whole new sickness.
Fairwell."
Here's my pathetic life:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=50#67662 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6964&forum=13&start=50#67662)
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 02:19:00 PM
:grin:
And also unheard. Only Twenty four people online right now, thousands of posts on this site, links thruout the web, search engine links immediately linking priority hits fornits on a multitude of topics and 10s of thousands of views, kids pulled from programs,letters from mothers, fathers and kids thanking me, and a website where people in treatment 30 years ago come to ask me questions about what happened to them. That in addition to raising two kids and running a full time business with multiple locations, and traveling 10 days a month out of country and maintaining a foreign residence.
What a wasted bitter life! Your making me cry!
:grin: :grin:
GregFL
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 02:21:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 02:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did I make a spelling error?"
Hehe, more comedy. I know I said I was leaving, but your just too damn funny!
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 02:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:18:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
It is I that feel sorry for you network of 3. The only three people that post their horrors. That I find very funny. Face it, your dedication to discrediting fine treatment institutions is going unheard, except for the few that wander in, like me and discover a whole new sickness.
Fairwell."
Here's my pathetic life:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=50#67662 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6964&forum=13&start=50#67662)
"
Yeah, it really is horrible, This tainted life without the guidance of stepcraft... aint it?
:grin: :grin:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 02:27:00 PM
Quote
Yeah, it really is horrible, This tainted life without the guidance of stepcraft... aint it?
Yeah, and the ability to choose what to do on Friday nights! :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 02:34:00 PM
I'm really honored thast you 3 find me so amusing as I can only laugh at your paranoia and unsubstantiated claims. You guys are ghosts without lives. i don't care how full your life is, if it were so great you wouldn't be here all the time battling me, or even laughing at me. I laugh at you and your GOD complex.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 02:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:17:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"Not sure who you're addressing that to, but I've been a little busy getting a trawler ready for us to take down to a boat show. Sorry I couldn't come out and play today. :wave:
You said that yesterday and then came back. But you're anon today so I could be wrong, but don't think so. Are you really leaving this time?Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
"
The boat show is this weekend? Which one...I love the st pete boat show!
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 02:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"For such an enormous base of unsatisfied customers, I find this board to be rather small and small minded. Where are all the topics, where are all the people who were are also emotionally and physically raped?
Pick a forum, any forum:
http://fornits.com/wwf/index.php (http://fornits.com/wwf/index.php)
I'm really honored thast you 3 find me so amusing as I can only laugh at your paranoia and unsubstantiated claims. You guys are ghosts without lives. i don't care how full your life is, if it were so great you wouldn't be here all the time battling me, or even laughing at me. I laugh at you and your GOD complex."
The way you contradict yourself INSIDE a sentence is amusing!
Actually, I'm sitting here looking out at the water, chatting on the phone, doing business, buying some stuff online, having a tall glass of ice tea and enjoying the sunshine. You are a by-product. :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 02:43:00 PM
btw, I do not not contradict myself, you just don't know how to use the brain the good lord gave you. But again I have offended you, for their is no GOD, right?
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 02:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And you lie. You lie about this so-called wonderful life, and by you being here all the time proves myself.
btw, I do not not contradict myself, you just don't know how to use the brain the good lord gave you. But again I have offended you, for their is no GOD, right?"
Uh huh. PROVE IT! :rofl:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 02:45:00 PM
http://www.2005boatshows.com/Miami/ (http://www.2005boatshows.com/Miami/)
Wicked men obey from fear, good men from love.
--Aristotle
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 02:48:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 02:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"GOD believes in you. He is everwhere, in everything, even you. Prove he is not."
I meant prove me a liar. Burden of proof is on you, guy.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 02:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"GOD believes in you. He is everwhere, in everything, even you. Prove he is not."
Are you shitting me??? You're the one stating that there is a god....burden of proof is on YOU!!! :rofl: :rofl:
Unicorns exist...prove they do not. :lol: :lol:
Nothing is denied to well-directed labor, and nothing is ever to be
attained without it.
--Joshua Reynolds (1723-1792)
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 02:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:57:00, Erinys wrote:
"Have you heard this story of the Hot Rod Race
When Fords and Lincolns was settin' the pace?
I'm here to say
Someone was drivin' that Model AA
But my friends, yer gonna drive him to drinkin'
If ya don't stop doin that Hot Rod thinkin'No citizen of a liberal and democratic nation profits from a victorious war."
--Ludwig von Mises
Okay, Im a little thick. I just got that.
Pretty clever...and funny. I gotta stop smiling and get some work done. Jeeus, this thread has really gotten to be comical.
:grin:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 02:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:39:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"For such an enormous base of unsatisfied customers, I find this board to be rather small and small minded. Where are all the topics, where are all the people who were are also emotionally and physically raped?
Pick a forum, any forum:
http://fornits.com/wwf/index.php (http://fornits.com/wwf/index.php)
I'm really honored thast you 3 find me so amusing as I can only laugh at your paranoia and unsubstantiated claims. You guys are ghosts without lives. i don't care how full your life is, if it were so great you wouldn't be here all the time battling me, or even laughing at me. I laugh at you and your GOD complex."
The way you contradict yourself INSIDE a sentence is amusing!
Actually, I'm sitting here looking out at the water, chatting on the phone, doing business, buying some stuff online, having a tall glass of ice tea and enjoying the sunshine. You are a by-product. :grin:
"
Sara he seems to do that quite often. Called me stupid but complimented my vocab in the same sentence too. The more we talk to him the more pathetic he turns out to be. :grin:
Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"GOD believes in you. He is everwhere, in everything, even you. Prove he is not."
So is my invisible giant on mars. He is eating a rock right now. Prove he is not.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 02:54:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 02:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Greg, that is because you are delusional."
Provide some evidence for your god, or we are on equal footing...you with your giant primate in the sky, and me with my invisible rock eating giant.
You just can't grasp the basic fundamentals of burden of proof, can you?
I know your powerless over alcohol and something is affecting your ability to reason...Maybe your drinking right now?
:grin:
Gawd, this is like playing with a puppy that keeps chasing his tail.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 03:01:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 03:04:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No, not drinking now, but you never know. Just one drink away from tracking down all the assholes I have ever known and dispensing with them. You know how it is, right Greggy?"
Er, not really, I don't harbor those resentments nor am I a self professed "powerless" person. But hey, if you know me, com'n over. I would love to laugh at you to your face!
It would bring a much needed refreshing dimension to this tired out thrashing you have taken.
Greggy...tracking down...assholes....hmmmm...are you my ex wife?
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"[email protected] "
checking...still no message....
:cry2:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
" You guys are ghosts without lives. i don't care how full your life is, if it were so great you wouldn't be here all the time battling me, or even laughing at me. I laugh at you and your GOD complex."
Funny, I haven't been around in a long time. Had other things to do. Lately I've had a little more free time, working at home on the boats etc. BTW...I'll be thinkin 'bout y'all when I'm at the Big Game this weekend sitting inside the announcers booth!!!! :wave:
The lust for power, for dominating others, inflames the heart more than any other passion
Tacitus
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 03:07:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"1 DRINK AWAY"
I had about 3 last night. What does that mean? :lol:
For myself, I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 03:09:00 PM
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You guys are really funny.
Once again, glad to oblige. :wave:
It takes a village idiot to believe that a family needs instruction from the government to raise a child.
-- Anonymous homeschooler
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:12:00 PM
Sort of a window into the empty arguments and anger management issues the average GT stepcraft dad is harboring.
Maybe we can get some new converts to reality with it!
:idea:
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You guys are really funny.
Thanks.
You too.
:grin:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:12:00, GregFL wrote:
"Hey, I have an inspiration. I am going to print this thread, bound it and distribute it at the next GT open meeting.
Sort of a window into the empty arguments and anger management issues the average GT stepcraft dad is harboring.
Maybe we can get some new converts to reality with it!
:nworthy: :nworthy:In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
--Thomas Jefferson 1798
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:08:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"1 DRINK AWAY"
I had about 3 last night. What does that mean? :lol:For myself, I do not believe in any revelation. As for a future life, every man must judge for himself between conflicting vague probabilities.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
"
No telling. The definition keeps switching here. Check your jeans (er, I mean Genes).
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 03:15:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"1 DRINK AWAY"
Well then, a toast...to you!!!! ::cheers::
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
" i have other ideas."
Well, that is HIGHLY debatable. :rofl: :rofl:
A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"do as you please. i have other ideas."
You have ideas?
Really?
where?
:grin:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:17:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"do as you please. i have other ideas."
You have ideas?
Really?
where?
:nworthy:
The religion of one age is the literary entertainment of the next.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, poet, philosopher
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 03:20:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:08:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
I had about 3 last night.
"
Gee, did it cause you to wanna track down people on the web and "dispense" with them?
Maybe he really is powerless, who knows?
He certainly isn't stable...he has demonstrated that beyond a doubt.
But funny he is! Im starting to like him. Com'n over pappa GT, I got a bottle of scotch. You and I can discuss the good ole days!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey, if this board is so important ans so great, then why are you here with me? Could it be that you have no life?"
I refer you to my previous post....
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =380#80144 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8009&forum=13&start=380#80144)
Funny, I haven't been around in a long time. Had other things to do. Lately I've had a little more free time, working at home on the boats etc. BTW...I'll be thinkin 'bout y'all when I'm at the Big Game this weekend sitting inside the announcers booth!!!!
A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
Thomas Jefferson
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey, if this board is so important ans so great, then why are you here with me?
Because everyone needs a little entertainment now and then!
:grin: :grin: :grin:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 03:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey, if this board is so important ans so great, then why are you here with me? Could it be that you have no life?"
Here we go again. What is it YOU do, anyway?
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 03:27:00 PM
Quote
Gee, did it cause you to wanna track down people on the web and "dispense" with them?
Maybe he really is powerless, who knows?
He certainly isn't stable...he has demonstrated that beyond a doubt.
But funny he is! Im starting to like him. Com'n over pappa GT, I got a bottle of scotch. You and I can discuss the good ole days!
"
You gotta wonder what nuggets of wisdom he's feeding those kids he's so qualified to foster.
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:27:00 PM
Quote
Here we go again. What is it YOU do, anyway?
"
Just a guess, but between open meetings at GT and AA meetings I assume he trolls message boards making friends and convincing people by his overwelming and conclusive arguments.
Naaahh!
:grin:
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:27:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
You gotta wonder what nuggets of wisdom he's feeding those kids he's so qualified to foster.
Just further indictes the Stepcraft foster care model. You got a guy, admittedly powerless and "1 drink away from dispensing with ..." and totally powerless over a substance, guarding teenage kids in treatment.
pretty scary if you ask me, but nothing new. It has been going on since 1970.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 03:34:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 03:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:32:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:27:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
You gotta wonder what nuggets of wisdom he's feeding those kids he's so qualified to foster.
Just further indictes the Stepcraft foster care model. You got a guy, admittedly powerless and "1 drink away from dispensing with ..." and totally powerless over a substance, guarding teenage kids in treatment.
pretty scary if you ask me, but nothing new. It has been going on since 1970."
Well, I did ask another anon somewhere on a different thread why so called "dysfunctionals" are allowed to treat other so called "dysfunctionals". Never did get an answer. Guess it has to do with mathematics and double negatives.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 03:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well ta ta folks, its been a real slice. I hope you have a nice day, and then maybe tonight you can all get together and commit suicide...cult style."
Awwwww... now I'll REALLY have "no life" :rofl:
Post by: RTP2003 on February 02, 2005, 03:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:36:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well ta ta folks, its been a real slice. I hope you have a nice day, and then maybe tonight you can all get together and commit suicide...cult style."
Awwwww... now I'll REALLY have "no life" :rofl:
"
Drink the Kool-Aid, Sara, it wont hurt you--- The Steps will protect you......
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 03:41:00 PM
Quote
Drink the Kool-Aid, Sara, it wont hurt you--- The Steps will protect you......
"
How 'bout this glass o' grapes? :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 03:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well ta ta folks, its been a real slice. I hope you have a nice day, and then maybe tonight you can all get together and commit suicide...cult style."
Hey, don't forget about our scotch date...talk to you soon.
:grin:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well ta ta folks, its been a real slice. I hope you have a nice day, and then maybe tonight you can all get together and commit suicide...cult style."
Yep, heard that before. You're still lurking and reading. Can't help yourself can you.
"The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.
Timoclea
Post by: Antigen on February 02, 2005, 03:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:23:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-02 09:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So why do you hate them so much? Why can't you see that they had no power over their alcoholism?
Where is your compassion? Why are you so hell bent on your idea? So, there is conflicting evidence. You make it sound like I am wrong, when you really can't prove that you are right. And given the fact that so many of your family are alcoholics, should lend even more credence to my belief.
First of all - WHERE did I say I hate them?? You make no sense.
"
Agreed! I'm in the same boat. I have 5 brothers and sisters and love them all. However, I hate that they all discarded out of hand the terms of a real estate deal that we all inherited from my dad. Why? "I never payed any attention to your crazy talk?"--the executrix.
I hate that all that hard earned money went in several thousand dollar installments to my brother (and on to his crack dealers and bartenders) because he could be trusted because he was going to meetings again.
I hate that the land that my (alleged alcoholic) father paid off in full and stocked up w/ building supplies and equipment has been neglected and become a problem to the neighbors because who would trust a program screw up like me to do what I said I would and take it the final short step to make it livable for the whole damned clan. I hate that I'm spending even more than that just to live in a little po dunk town where I have no connection whatever. I hate that, in order to get along w/ my other brother, I have to keep my mouth shut and pretend it doesn't bother me when he holds forth on how his sponsor was so, so right about his sense of humor being a part of his "disease".
I don't hate my stepcraft steppin family. I just hate what that insidious and beguiling cult has done to our family and to my dad's plans for future prosperity for us.
The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
Post by: jjpinks on February 02, 2005, 03:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well ta ta folks, its been a real slice. I hope you have a nice day, and then maybe tonight you can all get together and commit suicide...cult style."
Oh my fucking lord!!!! This guy is absolutely insane! Yet incredibly entertaining (I am bored! LOL).
I am just wondering if he says that to the kids that stay at his home every night? :eek:
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:46:00 PM
:grin:
Post by: jjpinks on February 02, 2005, 03:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:46:00, GregFL wrote:
"Didn't I bail out of this thread at page 34?
:silly:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 03:50:00 PM
Quote
I don't hate my stepcraft steppin family. I just hate what that insidious and beguiling cult has done to our family and to my dad's plans for future prosperity for us.
That can't be right, Ginger - XA brings families closer. Someone must not have been working their program! :smile:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 03:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:46:00, GregFL wrote:
"Didn't I bail out of this thread at page 34?
:grin: "
Don't be so hard on yourself, Greg. I bailed out of the entire board a while ago, but the Keystone comedy was just too much fun to ignore. :grin:
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:49:00, jjpinks wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:46:00, GregFL wrote:
"Didn't I bail out of this thread at page 34?
:silly: "
I know, it's almost become an addiction. :wave:
There's only one party on Capital Hill and it's the bipartisan spending party.
Tom Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 03:55:00 PM
Quote
My name is Cayo, I'm addicted to boats, travel, movies and watching idiots make complete fools of themselves. :wave:There's only one party on Capital Hill and it's the bipartisan spending party.
Tom Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste
"
WE LOVE YOU CAYO!!!!! :razz:
Post by: GregFL on February 02, 2005, 03:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:45:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"No, got one of the big ones coming up this month. Working on one we're taking down to sell.
http://www.2005boatshows.com/Miami/ (http://www.2005boatshows.com/Miami/)Wicked men obey from fear, good men from love."
--Aristotle
The miami boat show!!!
:nworthy:
Wish I could be there, gotta go to tallahassee to see my son.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:55:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
My name is Cayo, I'm addicted to boats, travel, movies and watching idiots make complete fools of themselves. :scared:...to disarm the people (is) the best and most effective way to enslave them...
-- George Mason
Post by: jjpinks on February 02, 2005, 03:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:55:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
My name is Cayo, I'm addicted to boats, travel, movies and watching idiots make complete fools of themselves. ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha::
(as I spit tea all over the screen!)
thanks!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 03:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 12:56:00, GregFL wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-02 11:45:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"No, got one of the big ones coming up this month. Working on one we're taking down to sell.
http://www.2005boatshows.com/Miami/ (http://www.2005boatshows.com/Miami/)Wicked men obey from fear, good men from love."
--Aristotle
The miami boat show!!!
:nworthy:
Wish I could be there, gotta go to tallahassee to see my son.
"
Aw, that's too bad but you couldn't have a better reason to miss it! :smile:
The only voluntary urine sample they'll get from me is a taste test
--Bumper Sticker
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 03:59:00 PM
Quote
Now I'm gonna have nightmares tonight. :scared:...to disarm the people (is) the best and most effective way to enslave them...
-- George Mason
"
Ok, I take it back... So have some coffee, and try not to snarf it this time! :rofl:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 04:01:00 PM
Quote
::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha::
(as I spit tea all over the screen!)
thanks!
"
Oh God.. YOU TOO???? Talk about having Drinking Problems, you and Cayo DEFINITELY need help!!!
Post by: jjpinks on February 02, 2005, 04:04:00 PM
Quote
Oh God.. YOU TOO???? Talk about having Drinking Problems, you and Cayo DEFINITELY need help!!!
"
maybe we are "diseased"?? You know the drinking problems and all..... :rofl:
joke!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 02, 2005, 04:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 13:01:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
Oh God.. YOU TOO???? Talk about having Drinking Problems, you and Cayo DEFINITELY need help!!!
"
I know, I know...I'm powerless over liquids spewing forth from my mouth in laughter when reading bullshit from idiots! Or great quips from intelligent life forms. :lol:
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 04:10:00 PM
Quote
I know, I know...I'm powerless over liquids spewing forth from my mouth in laughter when reading bullshit from idiots! Or great quips from intelligent life forms. :smile:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 04:22:00 PM
Quote
maybe we are "diseased"?? You know the drinking problems and all..... :rofl:
joke!"
Don't forget the Cheetos! :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2005, 04:45:00 PM
Post by: RTP2003 on February 02, 2005, 04:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think I want to nail Cayo out on the water in a boat and eating some peaches"
Very suave you are. I don't see how she could resist someone as charming as you.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 05:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think I want to nail Cayo out on the water in a boat and eating some peaches"
Wrong forum! This may work better for you. (http://http://www.match.com) :roll:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 02, 2005, 07:03:00 PM
http://http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,146199,00.html
Post by: Antigen on February 02, 2005, 08:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-02 16:03:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"I suppose they didn't flub anything else, did they?
http://http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,146199,00.html
"
"In 2002, President Bush stood shoulder to shoulder with Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson and Dr. Anthony Fauci, the Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), and announced the African AIDS initiative with much fanfare. It now appears that this endorsement of nevirapine may have been premature. No policy, no matter how well intentioned, should be based on poor science. Yet that is what HIVNET 012 was."
Anybody else wonder what this was all about when it happened?
This is why theocracy is such a horrendous idea. Religion has it's place and role in society. But it ain't government! It's really dangerous to let anybody make important decisions who is totally credulous and who thinks an omnicient invisible friend whispers in their ear, telling them what is the right thing to do.
I've read stories similar to this coming out of NIDA going back to Nixon's second appointee.
Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 11:17:00 AM
Quote
This is why theocracy is such a horrendous idea. Religion has it's place and role in society. But it ain't government! It's really dangerous to let anybody make important decisions who is totally credulous and who thinks an omnicient invisible friend whispers in their ear, telling them what is the right thing to do.
I've read stories similar to this coming out of NIDA going back to Nixon's second appointee.Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
"
Think about it - the same group that wrote the Bible also believed the Earth was flat! :grin:
And as far as the TCs go - it's more like faith healing. I wonder how many program parents would take a sick kid to to a church rather than a hospital.
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 11:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 08:17:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
And as far as the TCs go - it's more like faith healing.
Its a great analogy!
Faith healers and their customers sort of participate in a type of passion play. The particpants know they got interviewed coming in the door, they know they sent the little cards in with their donation and name explaining what they needed to be healed for, the know they walked in and were asked to sit in the generic wheelchair, they know when the preacher yells "baby" in their ear that they were never really totally deaf to begin with, they observe no one with a visible ailment gets healed, only very vague internal problems or things with wiggle room, like "blindness and hearing" (very loose terms) and they fall and writhe on the floor on command, many with smiles on their face.
Why? Because they believe if they just comply, just play along, maybe they will, in spite of all the fraud and bullshit going on around them, receive a bonafide honest to goodness miracle. They are even willing to fake it for a while afterwards, hoping that their "miracle" will come to fruition.
I think it is somewhat the same for parents of these Seed derivitive programs. That is, they are willing participants in a passion play as well. They see the "motivating", the strange unsocial action of the participants,the isolation, the cultic behavior, the bizzare notions of awareness, the punishments for thinking, the absolute childish oversimplistic "steps", "signs" and "prayers"....however, just maybe if they play along they will get the result they were unable to get by themselves..the kid they think their child should be.
It is a form of self delusion and magical thinking...and it is dangerous.
To further the analogy, there are documented cases of people throwing their medicine up on stage at faith healer rallies and going home and dying, and their are documented cases of suicide, self mutilation and mental duress under the TC model of treatment.
Once again, great analogy!
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 12:08:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 12:40:00 PM
Son kills mother after she flushes his pot :
http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html (http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html)
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 12:52:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 12:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 09:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"BULL-SHIT"
Welcome back.
:grin:
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 12:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 09:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
" No big deal if people smoke pot a little...
Son kills mother after she flushes his pot :
http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html (http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html)
"
Must have been pretty good stuff.
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 12:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 09:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
" No big deal if people smoke pot a little...
Son kills mother after she flushes his pot :
http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html (http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html)
"
How lame. Man kills mother, and it is the fault of a substance.
Again, I guess he had a disease, eh?
ABsolved of all personal responsibility.
Your honor...I plead not guilty, I was powerless!
You want to start posting articles about people killing people over couch's, purses,girlfriends,and any number of assorted things? People are mean and people suck..some people even threaten other people on internet sites insinuating they are only one drink away from some violent act. IMAGINE THAT!
Here is another groundbreaking revelation for you...PEOPLE are responsible for their criminal activity, and blaming it on a substance or "disease" of substance abuse is weak and tired.
Keep trying, you may eventually hit on something that makes sense.
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 01:00:00 PM
http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html (http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html)
City Worker Accused Of Planting Mailbox Bomb
"Andrews, who works for the public works department, was apparently angry with former co-worker Patrick Casey for leaving a mousetrap and a shotgun shell in his water meter box for Andrews to find, according to a police report."
DAMN, THOSE MOUSETRAPS CAUSE ALL SORTS OF ABHERRENT BEHAVIOR!
:grin:
Moron.
Post by: jjpinks on February 03, 2005, 01:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-01 12:50:00, jjpinks wrote:
"I just have couple of questions (and I know that there are a few that may have already been asked, but I am sure that they haven't been answered by you yet)
1. Do you really, in the depths of your gut, believe that teenagers singing childrens songs is helping them become productive adults and helping them to get over whatever "addictions" that you think that they may have :question:
2. Do you think that not having any contact with their families helps bring the kids closer to their parents :question:
3. Don't you think that maybe the reason for alot of your daughters problems stem from you being a "victimized addict with a disease" (your words, not mine) :question:
I am not trying to attack you, I am just really interested in hearing your answers. "
You never answered these questions for me DC.
I would love to hear your response.
Thanx!
N
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 01:04:00 PM
It is his nature.
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 01:10:00 PM
Keep trying, you may eventually hit on something that makes sense."
[/quote]
Awwww... I LIKE what you said -- "PEOPLE are responsible for their activity, etc." BLAMING the program experience for your sorry attitudes and failures goes RIGHT along with that!! YOU are responsible for YOUR actions and Attitude!
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 01:13:00 PM
Quote
Awwww... I LIKE what you said -- "PEOPLE are responsible for their activity, etc." BLAMING the program experience for your sorry attitudes and failures goes RIGHT along with that!! YOU are responsible for YOUR actions and Attitude!"
And you are absolutely spot on correct, if I was doing that..using my program experience 30 years ago to wallow in failure and misery, I would be really pathetic. I am not. I am a grown man now, and what happened happened to me when I was a child. I have overcome the negativity and restored my family relationships.
But hey, thanks for caring!
:grin:
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 01:14:00 PM
whenever your ready. Got a real nice 18 year old single malt...
:grin:
Post by: jjpinks on February 03, 2005, 01:20:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 01:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 10:20:00, jjpinks wrote:
"Give me a bottle of Cuervo 1800 anyday! I guess that I too am still diseased after all these years..... :wink: "
There are some DAMN good tequilas you can get in south america for like, 5 bucks a bottle.
Thank GOD(you know, the invisible rock eating one on mars) I am not powerless over this stuff.
YUMMY!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 03, 2005, 01:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 09:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
" No big deal if people smoke pot a little...
Son kills mother after she flushes his pot :
http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html (http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html)
"
I think you may have seen "Reefer Madness" one too many times :rofl:
As men's prayers are a disease of the will, so are their creeds a disease of the intellect.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, poet, philosopher
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 01:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 10:00:00, GregFL wrote:
"Here, from your link...another story.
http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html (http://www.local6.com/news/4156176/detail.html)
City Worker Accused Of Planting Mailbox Bomb
"Andrews, who works for the public works department, was apparently angry with former co-worker Patrick Casey for leaving a mousetrap and a shotgun shell in his water meter box for Andrews to find, according to a police report."
DAMN, THOSE MOUSETRAPS CAUSE ALL SORTS OF ABHERRENT BEHAVIOR!
:scared:
What are the symptoms? Is there anything special that I should be looking out for? If I find there is a problem, what should I do??
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 01:59:00 PM
Quote
Awwww... I LIKE what you said -- "PEOPLE are responsible for their activity, etc." BLAMING the program experience for your sorry attitudes and failures goes RIGHT along with that!! YOU are responsible for YOUR actions and Attitude!"
More questions for ya:
1. What's so sorry about our attitudes
2. What failures can we attribute to these alleged "sorry attitudes"?
Of course, I know I'm probably wasting some finger energy here - you haven't really answered any of the other questions.
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 02:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 10:52:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
What are the symptoms? Is there anything special that I should be looking out for? If I find there is a problem, what should I do??
"
Well, Sara, it involves a highly specialized Treatment for the mousetrap disease. I can't tell you everything, but I can tell you zippetydodah and up up with people are part of the cure for this henious affliction.
So is holding your urine.
:rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 02:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 10:45:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
I think you may have seen "Reefer Madness" one too many times :rofl:
"
Thats it. I can't laugh all day today like I did yesterday...Im logging off and going home to work on my house.
It all your fault Cayhueso!
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 02:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 11:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-03 10:45:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
I think you may have seen "Reefer Madness" one too many times :rofl:
"
Thats it. I can't laugh all day today like I did yesterday...Im logging off and going home to work on my house.
It all your fault Cayhueso!
"
YEAH! That, and my monitor can't take any more coffee!
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 03, 2005, 02:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 11:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-03 10:45:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
I think you may have seen "Reefer Madness" one too many times :rofl:
"
Thats it. I can't laugh all day today like I did yesterday...Im logging off and going home to work on my house.
It all your fault Cayhueso!
"
Thank you, I'll be here all next week. Please don't forget to tip your waitress!! :wave: :lol: :lol:
Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other.
--James Madison
Post by: jjpinks on February 03, 2005, 02:46:00 PM
Quote
YEAH! That, and my monitor can't take any more coffee!
"
Or tea (in my case!) LMAO
Post by: DC on February 03, 2005, 03:05:00 PM
On 2005-02-01 12:50:00, jjpinks wrote:
"I just have couple of questions (and I know that there are a few that may have already been asked, but I am sure that they haven't been answered by you yet)
1. Do you really, in the depths of your gut, believe that teenagers singing childrens songs is helping them become productive adults and helping them to get over whatever "addictions" that you think that they may have
2. Do you think that not having any contact with their families helps bring the kids closer to their parents
3. Don't you think that maybe the reason for alot of your daughters problems stem from you being a "victimized addict with a disease" (your words, not mine)
I am not trying to attack you, I am just really interested in hearing your answers. "
You never answered these questions for me DC.
I would love to hear your response.
Thanx!
N
I am not trying to attack you, I am just really interested in hearing your answers. "
You never answered these questions for me DC.
I would love to hear your response.
Thanx!
N
The answer to question #1 is no, I do not believe that singing children songs benefits nor harms the kids in any way. The only value I can see that may come from it is that it may reintroduce them to the wholesomness of childhood.
The answer to question #2 is that in the beginning, yes, I think that in the beginning, once a kid goes to GT, the parents are upset and the child is upset. That removing a kid from close contact with their family may help, as long as it is for a short period. Do I believe that long extended periods of time is good for family & child, the answer is no. This is not my experience. My daughter made 2nd phase in a month. Did I miss her, yes I did. My daughter was never beligerent, never threw fits, but she did steal money, stay out all night, steal from her friends, get raped by a supposed friend and used many different and dangerous drugs, etc... By the time we decided on GT, she knew that she needed help. She had been in AA and had a sponsor for a year before her relapse.
The answer to number 3 is that I don't remember using those words. I don't think I ever called myself "victimized". If I did, then I would like you to show me. If I did, then you probably took them out of context. What I do believe is that alcoholism is a disease (don't everyone laugh). I am entitled to my belief. It is shared by many professionals, and I don't think it neccessarily means that they are all in it for the money. This industry is abused just like all other industries. Saying that, I also think it can be inheritated. While many times it manifests itself not with the use of alcohol or drugs it can be food, sex etc... I think my daughter was predisposed genetically.
I hope these answers satisfy you. I have been honest to the bone as to how I feel and what I think. Gt has not harmed my child in any way. She is on an upper phase now and I speak to her about these issues all the time. Whether or not they have harmed others, I don't know, maybe. But I can tell you this, there is NO physical abuse going on there. I seriously doubt that there is any abuse going on at all. I think that with the past investigations and other things that may or may not have happened that this program has been cleaned up. Do they use questionable tactics? Yes. Are they illegal? No. I am very satisfied with my daughter's progress. Sorry you don't believe the way I do, but thats ok. I was too harsh in my initial posts and probably came across as combative. But I also didn't deserve alot of the harshness that was thrown at me. I guess there are two sides to every story and sometimes it is frustrating to try and articulate them by pen, especially when trying to work at the same time. I am willing to forgive and forget, hopefully you all will feel the same.
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 03:32:00 PM
Post by: DC on February 03, 2005, 03:35:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 04:01:00 PM
Quote
My daughter was never beligerent, never threw fits, but she did steal money, stay out all night, steal from her friends, get raped by a supposed friend and used many different and dangerous drugs, etc... By the time we decided on GT, she knew that she needed help. She had been in AA and had a sponsor for a year before her relapse.
In a nutshell - do everything differently that you were doing that didn't work before.
To prevent the stealing of money - lock it up, keep your credit cards with you at all times (They don't take that much space under your pillow). I've lived with theives before - once you remove access, they quit trying.
Cutting off access to the cash will in some ways limit access to the substances, but not completely. There are inexpensive alarm systems that you can employ to secure the house at night, preventing sneaking out.
As far as school goes, you could set up a daily attendance card with her teachers - having each teacher sign to verify that she's been in class. Keep a signature card handy so you can verify teachers signatures.
Actively be involved in homework. When she gets home from school, give her some down time to decompress from the day, then set a Homework time, where she does her homework... maybe at the kitchen table, where she can see you, and where you two (or three, including mom) can help and actually TALK about the schoolwork. Make it interesting. It's a creative process.
As far as her being raped - she needs actual counseling from a clinical psychologist, maybe a psychiatrist. Even if she seems "fine". Part of her substance use may be a result of burying that pain, and stuffing itside is HARMFUL. The format of GT is not what she needs. In fact, repressing and regressing a rape victim back to childhood may be disasterous. Don't take my word for it... talk to a psychologist in clinical practice.
If she was out of control, she was out of control for a reason, and until that reason is indentified, addressed and fixed - all the children's songs, peer discussions, and rigid structure are not going to help.
There's my 4 cents.
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 04:02:00 PM
Your child did not turn out a mess over night. It starts from birth. Why not think of some postive things to help your child through all this instead of punitive ones?
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 04:05:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 04:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 13:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This furiates me even more what the guy said about his daughter being raped. You have some damn good advice Sara. Let's help her and not punish her for being a damn rape victim. When the hell are these places ever going to shut down?!"
I don't know. We can even assume GT IS DIFFERENT. Let's say that is IS a decent place now.
Rape is a devastating experience that is a very private matter. It needs to be dealt with in therapy - one on one, then maybe moving on to a SPECIFIC rape support group - not a mixed up tag team of kids - maybe even ignorant kids who will confront her for being at fault.
I think anyone who has been a rape victim should automatically be disqualified from any sort of generic group therapy.
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 04:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 12:35:00, DC wrote:
"First of all I am not a lady, I am a guy. Secondly, that is not my belief. I am not brainwashed, misguided, maybe. I doubt it. Why don't you tell me what you would do if you had a child that was out of control. You have plenty to say about everything but what to do about the problem."
My son was "out of control" for a while, according to your definition of what your dauther did (by the way, you said she was an addict...calling bullshit again.."using all kinds of drugs" does not an addict make)
Oh yeah, he is getting ready to enter graduate school now...all without the help of "the program".
Much like 99 percent of america, he made it thru his hard knocks.
Believe in yourself,and believe in your daughter. You are only powerless if you believe you are.
Post by: DC on February 03, 2005, 04:14:00 PM
These problems are all associated with behavior related to taking drugs. I am saying that I had her seeing psychologists and psychiatrists, took her to group therapy, damn near did everything I could. I can't think of anything I didn't try, and I still failed.
She is not afraid to talk about GT, we have had many discussions. I even told her that I would pull her from the program if there was anything she felt she couldn't tell me, she understands this. She is adament that there is no abuse. She has no bruises, she doesn't come home upset, but more like the little girl she used to be before the drugs. This program is close, there would be talk about things going on, but there is none.
I guess I am asking the wrong people.None of you believe the things I believe (regarding the disease of addiction). through my observation of GT, I was curious to see why you all felt the way you do. My conclusions are that none of you are addicts, making it impossible to understand the concept. And also that you were put in your programs against your will and now still hold on to the grudge. I will also say that I do believe that in the times that you were in these programs they were probably a bit different. That maybe they did abuse you, I'm sorry about that. No child should be abused. i do not see the point that I am in fact abusing my daughter, I see it as saving her life.
Thanks again
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 04:16:00 PM
I have personally witnessed people in TC "treatment" being called sluts and whores "on the streets". I really really hope that she didn't get this piled on top of her after enduring the humiliation of rape.
And don't bother asking her...she isn't allowed to tell you, and if she does and it gets back will have serious repercutions heaped further on top of her.
Are you sure you are doing the right thing?
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 04:20:00 PM
Believe in her, even when it is hard. Put in the time. Chances are things will come out okay. The program is not improving those odds, only screwing up what is left of her childhood. It is NOT a normal way to grow up.
I do this, post on this and the seed discussion forum, not because I need to, but because I think it makes a difference. It is my way of giving back. Many many people have gone thru these programs and come up with nary a scratch. Others come out with severe physc and emotional scars. Others with family problems that last and last.
Why risk it? Try another approach. Bring your daughter home...
Post by: DC on February 03, 2005, 04:20:00 PM
I did have ground rules anonymous, i did stick with them. I was consistant. She just kept breaking the rules. Why is it that you only blame me? I am not your parent. I honestly believe that i did the best I could, and I continue to do the best i can. There is no reason to slam AA's 4th step, or even me. I want solutions not more conflict.
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 04:23:00 PM
The process of changing your mind and being forced to think in a certain fashion, and accept only black and white stories about your pre and post program life is what is abusive.
I am not sure you will get this, but this the message we have tried, and failed, to get to you.
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
Post by: DC on February 03, 2005, 04:30:00 PM
I cannot say what I will do at this point, but you all have raised some very valid points. I still believe things a bit differently than you, but maybe now I have some good references to start looking up. yes, I saved the links to my favorites and have begun to read a few. So I can honestly say that I have an open mind.
I know that you have in mind to disuade people from making the same choice as your parents as well as maybe something theraputic, so from the heart I do appreciate it.
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 04:34:00 PM
What I'm saying is that YOU as a parent could not have did everything perfect because these types of problems do not manifest over night. Okay you stuck by the rules, but clearly there is something that happened in your daughter's life to make decisions to practice risky behaviors.
Also do not forget she is a teen and many teens do stuff like this and as time goes on they live and learn. Let her learn. I think you do have doubts about her program or else you would not be here.
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 04:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 13:30:00, DC wrote:
"Thanks Greg, I know that what you said is sincere and I appreciate it.
I cannot say what I will do at this point, but you all have raised some very valid points. I still believe things a bit differently than you, but maybe now I have some good references to start looking up. yes, I saved the links to my favorites and have begun to read a few. So I can honestly say that I have an open mind.
I know that you have in mind to disuade people from making the same choice as your parents as well as maybe something theraputic, so from the heart I do appreciate it."
Thank you. That is all we ask, is that you have an open mind.
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 04:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 13:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So let your daughter fall and learn from her own mistakes. Oh you are very wrong about the addiction thing. I do belive in it and I do believe in AA for WILLING participants
There is great debate among us here on this subject.
There is little debate among people that went to these programs that they wish they didn't. Very few (but some) people as adults think it was a positive life experience, and for some it causes a train wreck in their lives.
Post by: DC on February 03, 2005, 04:53:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 04:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 13:14:00, DC wrote:
"I appreciate your 4 cents, I really do. The things that you mention are all sound ideas. What if i told you that I hid everything, all the time, and still money and items came up missing? What if I told you I had daily progress reports set up with her teachers and she still continued to cut class and fail? That she didn't care anymore. What if i told you that I did work on assignments with her and try to help her with her grades?
These problems are all associated with behavior related to taking drugs. I am saying that I had her seeing psychologists and psychiatrists, took her to group therapy, damn near did everything I could. I can't think of anything I didn't try, and I still failed.
She is not afraid to talk about GT, we have had many discussions. I even told her that I would pull her from the program if there was anything she felt she couldn't tell me, she understands this. She is adament that there is no abuse. She has no bruises, she doesn't come home upset, but more like the little girl she used to be before the drugs. This program is close, there would be talk about things going on, but there is none.
I guess I am asking the wrong people.None of you believe the things I believe (regarding the disease of addiction). through my observation of GT, I was curious to see why you all felt the way you do. My conclusions are that none of you are addicts, making it impossible to understand the concept. And also that you were put in your programs against your will and now still hold on to the grudge. I will also say that I do believe that in the times that you were in these programs they were probably a bit different. That maybe they did abuse you, I'm sorry about that. No child should be abused. i do not see the point that I am in fact abusing my daughter, I see it as saving her life.
Thanks again"
I would say try, try again. Honestly - I don't know how many different variations of parenting there are... but like the other anon said - you do have to wonder why some kids "go outta control" even with the best parents. Parenting is a creative process too.
Parenting a teenager AINT EASY! Hell, even the most well - adjusted stereotypical "Good Kid" has issues they don't quite understand. Open lines of communication are key.
Have you tried family therapy?
Post by: DC on February 03, 2005, 05:09:00 PM
I really did do everything. i was at my wits end. We were in family therapy for a year and it didn't change a thing. I switched thrapists, i did it all. Rehab was the last option.
Your questions have all been good ones, I appreciate the time and thought put into them. I am sorry for being combative. I was frustrated.
Thanks for all your help.
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 05:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 14:09:00, DC wrote:
"Sara,
I really did do everything. i was at my wits end. We were in family therapy for a year and it didn't change a thing. I switched thrapists, i did it all. Rehab was the last option.
Your questions have all been good ones, I appreciate the time and thought put into them. I am sorry for being combative. I was frustrated.
Thanks for all your help."
Thanks for coming here, and mostly, thanks for coming around and listening.
Good luck with your daughter. I think I speak for everyone when I say we wish her the best
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 05:41:00 PM
Post by: DC on February 03, 2005, 05:42:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 05:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 14:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thanks Greg, that really means alot. I think maybe you have helped me to see some things in a different way. I don't know if its the guilt or what, but I love her so much and I want to do the right thing. I didn't want to think I made a mistake...again. I think thats why I took things so personal. i know i can admit when I am wrong. When I came here i didn't see things the way I do now. i think you guys are alright. i will keep you informed. Thanks to all. "
As far as I'm concerned, the door is always open! Definitely keep in touch. :smile:
Post by: jjpinks on February 03, 2005, 06:25:00 PM
You said, "I hid everything, all the time, and still money and items came up missing? What if I told you I had daily progress reports set up with her teachers and she still continued to cut class and fail? That she didn't care anymore. What if i told you that I did work on assignments with her and try to help her with her grades?"
What if I told you that I did those things too? What if I also told you that 99% of teenagers do those same things to some degree as well. Yet, there is a very small percentage of those whose parents feel that "shipping the kid off" will help and that the kids are going to learn from these mistakes as they mature.
You said, "These problems are all associated with behavior related to taking drugs"
Wrong! I wasn't an addict. Hell, when my parents put me away, I was all of 13 years old! I don't think that I have ever seen a 13 year old addict in my life!
You said, "She is not afraid to talk about GT, we have had many discussions. I even told her that I would pull her from the program if there was anything she felt she couldn't tell me, she understands this. She is adament that there is no abuse. She has no bruises, she doesn't come home upset, but more like the little girl she used to be before the drugs. This program is close, there would be talk about things going on, but there is none."
Have you not listened to what these people are saying to you? They are telling you that as long as she is in the program, she CAN NOT tell you anything negative about it for fear of being punished for it. I wish that you would listen to people that have a little more experience with this than you do.
You said, "And also that you were put in your programs against your will and now still hold on to the grudge."
I am speaking for myself only here when I say that yes, I am still hurt when I think about my parents sending me to the place that they put me at the age of 13. I am now 34 years old and have put alot of the pain behind me but yet whenever I try to ask my parents how they came to the conclusion that I needed to be in a "program", I get brushed off. I am telling you here and now that no matter how bad my kids may act when they are teenagers, I will never NEVER put them away anywhere!
Sorry, I am a little emotional tonight.
N
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 03, 2005, 07:07:00 PM
Please check your private messages
You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot
easier.
--GW Büsh, Governor of Texas. Governing Magazine, 7/98
Post by: jjpinks on February 03, 2005, 08:05:00 PM
I just wanted to add that.
N
Post by: GregFL on February 03, 2005, 08:27:00 PM
On July 6, 2001, an oldcomer slapped a newcomer after finding that the newcomer had been innocently drawing.
On October 23, 2003, police reported that a teenaged patient was "enforcing the rules with other patients" -- the same violation Pavlescak cited in 1990.
On January 2, 2004, police observed Growing Together's 54-year-old clinical director, Laura Hughes, restraining a teenaged girl on the ground after she "had been disrespectful and disobedient to Growing Together staff throughout the day."
sigh..some thing never change.....
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 08:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 13:01:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
My daughter was never beligerent, never threw fits, but she did steal money, stay out all night, steal from her friends, get raped by a supposed friend and used many different and dangerous drugs, etc... By the time we decided on GT, she knew that she needed help. She had been in AA and had a sponsor for a year before her relapse.
In a nutshell - do everything differently that you were doing that didn't work before.
To prevent the stealing of money - lock it up, keep your credit cards with you at all times (They don't take that much space under your pillow). I've lived with theives before - once you remove access, they quit trying.
Cutting off access to the cash will in some ways limit access to the substances, but not completely. There are inexpensive alarm systems that you can employ to secure the house at night, preventing sneaking out.
As far as school goes, you could set up a daily attendance card with her teachers - having each teacher sign to verify that she's been in class. Keep a signature card handy so you can verify teachers signatures.
Actively be involved in homework. When she gets home from school, give her some down time to decompress from the day, then set a Homework time, where she does her homework... maybe at the kitchen table, where she can see you, and where you two (or three, including mom) can help and actually TALK about the schoolwork. Make it interesting. It's a creative process.
As far as her being raped - she needs actual counseling from a clinical psychologist, maybe a psychiatrist. Even if she seems "fine". Part of her substance use may be a result of burying that pain, and stuffing itside is HARMFUL. The format of GT is not what she needs. In fact, repressing and regressing a rape victim back to childhood may be disasterous. Don't take my word for it... talk to a psychologist in clinical practice.
If she was out of control, she was out of control for a reason, and until that reason is indentified, addressed and fixed - all the children's songs, peer discussions, and rigid structure are not going to help.
There's my 4 cents.
"
Oh my god - you make sound so simple. You obviously do NOT have children (and rightly so).
Why don't you go write a book with your child problem solutions.
Oh- and I really enjoyed your reply about locking up your cash and valuables until they loose desire. That was a JEWEL!
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 09:07:00 PM
Quote
Oh my god - you make sound so simple. You obviously do NOT have children (and rightly so).
Why don't you go write a book with your child problem solutions.
Oh- and I really enjoyed your reply about locking up your cash and valuables until they loose desire. That was a JEWEL!"
They were suggestions. Like 'em or leave 'em.
And as far as my "jewel" goes - does it make sense to keep beating your head against a brick wall? If you keep scouting for the cash and cards, and you don't find them for say, oh, six months, wouldn't you get sick of trying?
Moreover, wouldn't you get the message that someone knows what you're up to, and you're flat out busted?
So let's hear your ideas for the book! :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 10:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 18:07:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
Oh my god - you make sound so simple. You obviously do NOT have children (and rightly so).
Why don't you go write a book with your child problem solutions.
Oh- and I really enjoyed your reply about locking up your cash and valuables until they loose desire. That was a JEWEL!"
They were suggestions. Like 'em or leave 'em.
And as far as my "jewel" goes - does it make sense to keep beating your head against a brick wall? If you keep scouting for the cash and cards, and you don't find them for say, oh, six months, wouldn't you get sick of trying?
Moreover, wouldn't you get the message that someone knows what you're up to, and you're flat out busted?
So let's hear your ideas for the book! :grin:"
How about treating the ROOT instead of the symptons?! Why not confront the child with his/her negative decisions/behaviors (stealing), and discuss WHY she feels the need to be sneaky, dishonest?! What is she buying with this money she's stealing? How are these actions going to cause her more problems in the future if she doesn't stop them NOW (criminal, etc.)??
Let her know it's unacceptable behavior... that you love her but you won't sit back and allow her to continue this. Help her figure out HONEST ways to EARN money. Let her know there will be consequences if this happens again, then FOLLOW THROUGH.
That's where I would start. Not buying a safe for my wallet in my own home, and avoiding dealing with her about it face-to-face.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 11:02:00 PM
Quote
How about treating the ROOT instead of the symptons?! Why not confront the child with his/her negative decisions/behaviors (stealing), and discuss WHY she feels the need to be sneaky, dishonest?! What is she buying with this money she's stealing? How are these actions going to cause her more problems in the future if she doesn't stop them NOW (criminal, etc.)??
Let her know it's unacceptable behavior... that you love her but you won't sit back and allow her to continue this. Help her figure out HONEST ways to EARN money. Let her know there will be consequences if this happens again, then FOLLOW THROUGH.
That's where I would start. Not buying a safe for my wallet in my own home, and avoiding dealing with her about it face-to-face."
Speaking of books, why don't you start with "Hooked on Phonics", then move up to "Adventures in Reading Comprehension".
I left the "duh" factor out of that particular post, and I talked about communications in another.
Contrary to Programite belief, I do have better things to do other than hold your hand to take you back to what you missed.
[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-03 20:04 ]
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 11:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 20:02:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
How about treating the ROOT instead of the symptons?! Why not confront the child with his/her negative decisions/behaviors (stealing), and discuss WHY she feels the need to be sneaky, dishonest?! What is she buying with this money she's stealing? How are these actions going to cause her more problems in the future if she doesn't stop them NOW (criminal, etc.)??
Let her know it's unacceptable behavior... that you love her but you won't sit back and allow her to continue this. Help her figure out HONEST ways to EARN money. Let her know there will be consequences if this happens again, then FOLLOW THROUGH.
That's where I would start. Not buying a safe for my wallet in my own home, and avoiding dealing with her about it face-to-face."
Speaking of books, why don't you start with "Hooked on Phonics", then move up to "Adventures in Reading Comprehension".
I left the "duh" factor out of that particular post, and I talked about communications in another.
Contrary to Programite belief, I do have better things to do other than hold your hand to take you back to what you missed.
[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-03 20:04 ]"
Well, no surprise there that you would want to zone in on the "grammer", etc., instead on the actual content.
You go ahead, though, dear. Whatever makes you feel superior to others - do what you must. :tup:
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 03, 2005, 11:22:00 PM
Quote
Well, no surprise there that you would want to zone in on the "grammer", etc., instead on the actual content.
You go ahead, though, dear. Whatever makes you feel superior to others - do what you must. :tup: "
Your content shows that you picked one sentence of something I wrote and threw it back in the form of an attack. Reading comprehension has nothing to do with grammar, genius.
And just because you haven't grasped basic reading and critical thinking skills, does not mean that I think myself superior. That's another one of your assumptions.
Post by: Anonymous on February 04, 2005, 12:57:00 AM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 04, 2005, 07:15:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-03 21:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Tell us Sara ... DO you have children?"
And to quote one of the brighter bulbs in this box:
What's that got to do with the price of dope in Amsterdam?
Post by: Anonymous on February 04, 2005, 09:47:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-04 04:15:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-03 21:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Tell us Sara ... DO you have children?"
And to quote one of the brighter bulbs in this box:
What's that got to do with the price of dope in Amsterdam?"
Hard for you to connect that inquiry with previous posts?? Ok, I'll put in DIRECT format :
You threw out some advice, theories on parenting/ raising children. I'm just wondering what your "parenting" experience is?
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 04, 2005, 10:14:00 AM
Quote
Hard for you to connect that inquiry with previous posts?? Ok, I'll put in DIRECT format :
You threw out some advice, theories on parenting/ raising children. I'm just wondering what your "parenting" experience is?
Not that it's any of your business, but I raised a stepchild from age 4 to 15. Now, I'm sure you'll assume that I'm no longer married because I'm a horrible person. Again, it's none of your business, but the demise of my marriage came about because my husband found a woman who's worth a few more million than I am.
In the 11 years I was involved with my stepdaughter, of course she got into trouble. Curfews were broken, rules were broken, and sometimes she was just an out and out brat.
I used common sense and creativity. (I say *I*, because Dad was never involved - always had his nose in a video game and told me, "You handle this") The kid and I TALKED. Dialogue. Questions and answers on both sides. Common sense parenting.
There was none of this "Go to your room", no questions asked. But there were consequences, and she learned from them.
Long story short, I know that a year after the divorce, she was living with her grandmother (Cash Cow didn't like kids), and was pulling straight A's and involved in sports and music.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on February 04, 2005, 10:16:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-04 06:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
Hard for you to connect that inquiry with previous posts?? Ok, I'll put in DIRECT format :
You threw out some advice, theories on parenting/ raising children. I'm just wondering what your "parenting" experience is?
"
I've got 20+ years of parenting experience and Sara is on the mark. See, this takes an extreme commitment from parents to be FULLY involved in their kids lives. It's much easier to ship them off somewhere, it absolves the parent of the responsibility of actually dealing with the problems. I've said before here, many times that I've got experience from BOTH sides here. I've been a kid in a program and I'm a parent of two teens. I've been through a hellacious few years with my older one and there is NO WAY IN HELL I would allow her to be put into a program. Hell, my ex tried. He swore up and down that she was going to be deadinsaneorinjail if we didn't. I said over my dead fucking body. Surprise!!!! She's doing pretty well now. It wasn't easy by any means. When she was 15 & 16 I had to clamp down hard on her. That meant that I had to give up a huge part of my life to make sure that she was safe. When she was 17 I had to begin to let her make her own mistakes and learn the natural consequences of them. THAT was when the changes started to take place. When trying to FORCE her behavior to change, it didn't work. When I let her fall she began to realize that the way in which she was living her life wasn't working. I understand that that is an incredibly scary proposition for parents to consider, but the facts are that most kids grow out of their dangerous behaviors.
Now. I'm off to Jax for the Super Bowl. Eat your heart out guys!!! :wave: Luv ya group! :grin:
They came with a Bible and their religion- stole our land, crushed our spirit... and now tell us we should be thankful to the 'Lord' for being saved.
--Chief Pontiac, American Indian Chieftain
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 04, 2005, 10:19:00 AM
Quote
Now. I'm off to Jax for the Super Bowl. Eat your heart out guys!!! :wave: Luv ya group! :grin:
Oh I'm jealous! GO PATRIOTS!!!!
Post by: Anonymous on February 04, 2005, 03:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-04 07:14:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
Hard for you to connect that inquiry with previous posts?? Ok, I'll put in DIRECT format :
You threw out some advice, theories on parenting/ raising children. I'm just wondering what your "parenting" experience is?
Not that it's any of your business, but I raised a stepchild from age 4 to 15. Now, I'm sure you'll assume that I'm no longer married because I'm a horrible person. Again, it's none of your business, but the demise of my marriage came about because my husband found a woman who's worth a few more million than I am.
In the 11 years I was involved with my stepdaughter, of course she got into trouble. Curfews were broken, rules were broken, and sometimes she was just an out and out brat.
I used common sense and creativity. (I say *I*, because Dad was never involved - always had his nose in a video game and told me, "You handle this") The kid and I TALKED. Dialogue. Questions and answers on both sides. Common sense parenting.
There was none of this "Go to your room", no questions asked. But there were consequences, and she learned from them.
Long story short, I know that a year after the divorce, she was living with her grandmother (Cash Cow didn't like kids), and was pulling straight A's and involved in sports and music.
"
Interesting. Appreciate you answering, with a minimal amount of condescension this time.
So if she were stealing from you, would your answer still be to just lock up your stuff?
Post by: Anonymous on February 04, 2005, 03:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-04 07:16:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-04 06:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
Hard for you to connect that inquiry with previous posts?? Ok, I'll put in DIRECT format :
You threw out some advice, theories on parenting/ raising children. I'm just wondering what your "parenting" experience is?
"
I've got 20+ years of parenting experience and Sara is on the mark. See, this takes an extreme commitment from parents to be FULLY involved in their kids lives. It's much easier to ship them off somewhere, it absolves the parent of the responsibility of actually dealing with the problems. I've said before here, many times that I've got experience from BOTH sides here. I've been a kid in a program and I'm a parent of two teens. I've been through a hellacious few years with my older one and there is NO WAY IN HELL I would allow her to be put into a program. Hell, my ex tried. He swore up and down that she was going to be deadinsaneorinjail if we didn't. I said over my dead fucking body. Surprise!!!! She's doing pretty well now. It wasn't easy by any means. When she was 15 & 16 I had to clamp down hard on her. That meant that I had to give up a huge part of my life to make sure that she was safe. When she was 17 I had to begin to let her make her own mistakes and learn the natural consequences of them. THAT was when the changes started to take place. When trying to FORCE her behavior to change, it didn't work. When I let her fall she began to realize that the way in which she was living her life wasn't working. I understand that that is an incredibly scary proposition for parents to consider, but the facts are that most kids grow out of their dangerous behaviors.
Now. I'm off to Jax for the Super Bowl. Eat your heart out guys!!! :wave: Luv ya group! :grin:They came with a Bible and their religion- stole our land, crushed our spirit... and now tell us we should be thankful to the 'Lord' for being saved."
--Chief Pontiac, American Indian Chieftain
Whoa..."cool your jets", as we use to say. Wasn't talking about an Intake... was referring to Sara's suggestion of locking up valuables when your child is stealing, verses dealing with them directly, and not just treating symptons.
Have fun at the SuperBowl
Post by: Antigen on February 04, 2005, 04:21:00 PM
D.C. I'm sorry if I came off like an ass earlier. Do read some of that material. And please feel welcome back anytime.
I can tell you that yes, you did make a mistake again. But I can see by what you've been through and how you're going about things now that you're doing your level best. Here's the big secret. This is what my dad hung onto deep in his gut because he'd get confronted for brining it up in Parent group. And this really helped me later.
All parents make mistakes. And there are no do overs. When you're sitting in parent group hearing about it, just remember this very reliable rule of logic; "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc" is a falacy. Some of what you've done has not been a mistake. Some of whatever your daughter is dealing with has nothing to do w/ you at all.
One of the primary flaws in Program dogma is that whatever happened before intake was part of the problem and The Program® alternative attitude or perception of things is the only right way. That deviation from that is a slippery slope to that horrible, terminal past life.
That's what breaks up so many families. That's the reason why I still don't talk to my mother. Because I split from 5th phase trainee and fought through the courts to stay out over 20 years ago, her only interest in me forevermore was in getting me back into a program.
My dad saw it differently (and got thrown out of the house for "trying to kill me" by not trying to get me back in). My best olddruggiefriend was my only real friend. When I got out, the first thing I did was look him up. His mom had pulled him from the Program too. We had not been allowed to talk for the two years I was in, including the year he was there. And we both desperately needed that old, reliable confidence and friendship we'd shared since toddlerhood.
When you're in the program, you have to accept the staff and group's assessments, follow their advice and believe as they do about yourself and about everything. There is no room for divinace or discussion of the matter, even when they're dead wrong. You agree and tow the line or your parents and Program approved friends will report you, kick you out, quit associating w/ you completely, etc.
I guarantee they made mistakes in their assessments and recomendations. If there's one thing that helped me more than anything, it was my dad rejecting Program authority and standing by me, even when he was sure I was acting the fool. Sometimes, I certainly was. But other times he and the Program had been wrong.
What's done is done now. Just don't ever let the Program come between you and your daughter. Given a choice at any time, follow your gut and take your daughter's side.
you Momma is a big fat's ________
--Leroy Brown
Post by: Anonymous on February 04, 2005, 04:24:00 PM
Quote
Interesting. Appreciate you answering, with a minimal amount of condescension this time.
So if she were stealing from you, would your answer still be to just lock up your stuff?"
You started the condescension, remember, Jewel?
If she were stealing, I would find out why, and not take "I don't know" for an answer. We would talk about it, and then inform her what her consequences would be (probably paying back 150%, plus some restrictions - just the way it is in the real world). Then I would hide the money (or whatever objects) until a certain amount of time had passed for the lesson to sink in, then gradually returning to keeping the money in their usual places, with a close eye on it.
Post by: Antigen on February 04, 2005, 04:29:00 PM
(Now let's see what Crazy Mac comes up with for this one)
If they can get you to ask the wrong questions they don't have to worry about the answers
--Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow (Proverbs for Paranoids)
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 04, 2005, 05:27:00 PM
Quote
Whoa..."cool your jets", as we use to say. Wasn't talking about an Intake... was referring to Sara's suggestion of locking up valuables when your child is stealing, verses dealing with them directly, and not just treating symptons.
Have fun at the SuperBowl
"
By the way, the anon "spelling things out" was me. I didn't think I had to.
I thought "dealing directly with the child" went without saying. Of course you deal with the child directly - in EVERTHING.
Good God, if I told you "I went shopping today", would you wonder if I showered, brushed my teeth, got dressed and took the car keys with me?[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-04 14:28 ]
Post by: GregFL on February 04, 2005, 05:45:00 PM
They had a little think-stopper saying that they imparted to the parents, and that was this.
"the first time it is your kids fault, the second time it is yours"
Now, this saying on the surface doesn't really sound as sinister as it is.
The saying absolves all parental responsiblity for pre program problems and lands it soley on the kid and drugs. The second part tells them now that it is their responsiblity to keep them in the program forever if necessary, and to accept everything the program says, otherwise their kids failure is NOW on their backs.
The truth is this...your kid arrives in his spot in life by a very complicated journey that involves input by everyone, but mostly him/her. There is no magical cure, be it "spending time" "locking up your valuables" "the program" NOTHING WORKS. At some point it is up to the individual to be a success or failure at life, and no one else or nothing else can do it for him.
You can only do your best, and the rest is up to the kid. It is your job to believe in them and help guide them and god forbid, be with them if they fail and help bring them back.
Locking them up in a mind bending "rehab" has proven to be ineffective and harmfull. These places don't publish valid stats for a reason and the amount of harm they cause is well documented.
Trying to keep you kid out of harms way? Start with keeping them away from rehabs with proven track records of abuse and with their roots in a cult. This is a bad decision and can make things in the short term look better but result in long term problems.
A thoughtfull and concerned parent takes other approaches and hopes for the best.
Who is to blame really isn't that important. What is important is seeing your way thru it in a reasonablly calm manner, avoiding extreme reacionary "solutions" as hard as that can be.
Post by: jjpinks on February 07, 2005, 08:54:00 AM
If you haven't already done so, go on and do it now. Today is a great day to free your daughter.
N
Post by: Anonymous on February 07, 2005, 09:19:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-07 05:54:00, jjpinks wrote:
"I am hoping that you went and got your daughter out of that hellhole program since we haven't heard from you.
If you haven't already done so, go on and do it now. Today is a great day to free your daughter.
N"
DC - I'm speaking as someone who has BEEN to G.T. several times (as a visitor) as opposed to someone here that has never stepped FOOT in there, but wants to link it DIRECTLY with an unsuccessful program they've experienced.
As someone who has been there, and from someone who has read your posts, I just want to say that I think YOU know what should happen here. It wasn't some hasty decision on your part, you've looked at ALL ends of your decision, and you have your OWN experience thus far to base your actions on. You are not just letting your daughter do "whatever" and seeing what happens. You obviously love her too much to turn a blind eye. I went through a similar program where I gained tools to communicate, learn about myself all over again (without the distractions of my "friends", music, tv. etc.. at first), learned how to FEEL and process those feelings, learned better decision making skills, made a GREAT number of true friends.
Obviously some people here did not have that kind of experience. I can tell you my experience was POSITIVE.
You've had lots of input. I sincerely wish you and your daughter much success in your journey (whatever that may bring).
Kim
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 07, 2005, 09:27:00 AM
Quote
DC - I'm speaking as someone who has BEEN to G.T. several times (as a visitor) as opposed to someone here that has never stepped FOOT in there, but wants to link it DIRECTLY with an unsuccessful program they've experienced.
Ummmm... let me get this straight. As a visitor, you know more about the program that we who were in it's original program??
Quote
As someone who has been there, and from someone who has read your posts, I just want to say that I think YOU know what should happen here. It wasn't some hasty decision on your part, you've looked at ALL ends of your decision, and you have your OWN experience thus far to base your actions on. You are not just letting your daughter do "whatever" and seeing what happens. You obviously love her too much to turn a blind eye. I went through a similar program where I gained tools to communicate, learn about myself all over again (without the distractions of my "friends", music, tv. etc.. at first), learned how to FEEL and process those feelings, learned better decision making skills, made a GREAT number of true friends.
Obviously some people here did not have that kind of experience. I can tell you my experience was POSITIVE.
You've had lots of input. I sincerely wish you and your daughter much success in your journey (whatever that may bring).
What similar program were you and, and what brought about your "visitor" status of GT?
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 07, 2005, 09:28:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-07 06:27:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
DC - I'm speaking as someone who has BEEN to G.T. several times (as a visitor) as opposed to someone here that has never stepped FOOT in there, but wants to link it DIRECTLY with an unsuccessful program they've experienced.
Ummmm... let me get this straight. As a visitor, you know more about the program that we who were in it's original program??Quote
As someone who has been there, and from someone who has read your posts, I just want to say that I think YOU know what should happen here. It wasn't some hasty decision on your part, you've looked at ALL ends of your decision, and you have your OWN experience thus far to base your actions on. You are not just letting your daughter do "whatever" and seeing what happens. You obviously love her too much to turn a blind eye. I went through a similar program where I gained tools to communicate, learn about myself all over again (without the distractions of my "friends", music, tv. etc.. at first), learned how to FEEL and process those feelings, learned better decision making skills, made a GREAT number of true friends.
Obviously some people here did not have that kind of experience. I can tell you my experience was POSITIVE.
You've had lots of input. I sincerely wish you and your daughter much success in your journey (whatever that may bring).
What similar program were you in, and, and what brought about your "visitor" status of GT?"
Post by: GregFL on February 07, 2005, 09:53:00 AM
Lets put your cards on the table here.
There are many programs, but GT has a special lineage going back to the seed.
You telling us you were in either The Seed, Straight, Kids, or Life?
Com'n, were dying to know!
:grin:
Post by: jjpinks on February 07, 2005, 10:19:00 AM
Kim said....
"I was in the L.I.F.E. program in the 80's for a year before going through the "6th Phase" and graduating successfully. I was PISSED and stunned when I went in, and didn't do much at first except feel REGRETFUL for things I had done to GET myself there. However, I DID start to learn some things and progressed through the Program.
Today I am in my 30's, and I feel very blessed to have been a part of that program. It helped me in MANY ways, and never was I abused in any form nor did I witness ANY abuse there ( and I visited often after completing). Yes, I had no make-up, tv, radio, etc. for months (ewww - how awful, huh?), and I didn't attend school for the first 3 months, but when I returned to high school on 3rd phase I earned honor roll for the first time! What I learned there was how to communicate my feelings, how to improve my self esteem and how to set priorities in my life. I learned to be a leader instead of a follower. I learned to be more rational in my thinking.
Was it FUN?? No -- especially not in the beginning!! Was it suppose to be FUN? No! Did I have some of the BEST times of my life once I made 6 phase?? You BET!! I have GREAT memories of dances, Proms, camping trips, etc...(with TONS of photo's to prove it) and have MANY of my best friends today are from my "program" days.
I have been to Growing Together many times (though not lately). When I was there, it was a really good program, and I don't doubt that is still is today.
Good for you that you care enough about your daughter to HELP her, instead of doing nothing. You have a BIG committment yourself to that program, and it's not easy (but nothing worth while ever is). I remember my parents going to talk to one of my friends that I was drinking with (prior to the program) because they saw in the paper she had been arrested for burglery... her mom just skipped right over the topic of treatment/programs. 6 years later (when she was 22) our local paper reported her murder the day after Halloween. She was prostituting, involved in drugs and was stabbed to death over 20 times, and left by the side of the road! I grew up with this giril from age 2 till we were 16 (and I went into the program). I wish SHE had gotten treatment (anywhere). Her killer has never been found.
As for the posts you've received here... don't think that you can change any of these people's minds with the TRUTH. They won't "go there". Most are STUCK. Sad but true.
Kim"
I hope that re-posting this dosen't offend anyone.
N[ This Message was edited by: jjpinks on 2005-02-07 07:20 ]
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 07, 2005, 10:22:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-07 07:19:00, jjpinks wrote:
"Greg and Sara, Kim posted this back on page 3 or 4 in this thread. I thought that I would re-post it for anyone that wants to know where she was.
Doesn't offend me at all... I remember it now. Thanks! :smile:
Post by: Anonymous on February 07, 2005, 12:55:00 PM
Visitor status - LIFE graduate. ( I had other friends in Palm Beach area who were also graduates.)
Kim
Post by: jjpinks on February 08, 2005, 09:21:00 AM
I really hope that he got his daughter out and that is why he is not on here posting.
Maybe I have just lost it and am worried about nothing. I don't know.
I just had to say something.
N
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 08, 2005, 03:45:00 PM
Anon - that's your view of LIFE. No one can change that. The treatment modalities have been studied extensively by experts and found to be harmful, there are actual cases of them doing more harm then good. The fact that you believe it helped you is your opinion and another anecdotal success. Have you ever wondered if you would have wised up on your own?
N - I wonder about DC too. Obviously, he came here looking for answers - for some reason - who knows. I wish he and other parents would give kids some credit and encourage them to use their own minds rather than to indoctrinate them with kiddie songs, program words and groupthink to make them walk the "straight and narrow".
Post by: DC on February 08, 2005, 04:49:00 PM
I appreciate your concern over my wherabouts. I know you are thinking about my daughter. I have been given alot of information and I am going over it all and discussing it with my wife. While I realize that most posters here have had negative experiences in similar type programs (not so sure of the similarities any longer), I am having a difficult time in understanding some of the mind control issues which you all have spoken about and have also provided links. I am evaluating this information and seeking other avenues of understanding.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 09, 2005, 10:44:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-08 13:49:00, DC wrote:
"Hello all,
I appreciate your concern over my wherabouts. I know you are thinking about my daughter. I have been given alot of information and I am going over it all and discussing it with my wife. While I realize that most posters here have had negative experiences in similar type programs (not so sure of the similarities any longer), I am having a difficult time in understanding some of the mind control issues which you all have spoken about and have also provided links. I am evaluating this information and seeking other avenues of understanding.
Thanks again for your thoughts."
DC, I know I'm glad to hear it.
The mind control that is most disturbing, the stuff that haunts us some 20 years later, are the things that you and some other parents might consider "little things". You have to ask WHY they employ those techniques.
WHY prohibit access to downtime - reading material, music, games, etc. Of course, consider age-appropriateness, but why deny it all together?
WHY have someone observe you - I mean OBSERVE you on the toilet or in the shower?
WHY pound kiddie songs into the heads of kids who are closer to voting booths than playskool toys?
I don't meant to sound like a broken record, but the WHYs are the most important questions. And being told that you cannot ASK "why" is really suspect, don't you think?
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2005, 11:02:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-09 07:44:00, ~-=Sara=-~ wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-08 13:49:00, DC wrote:
"Hello all,
I appreciate your concern over my wherabouts. I know you are thinking about my daughter. I have been given alot of information and I am going over it all and discussing it with my wife. While I realize that most posters here have had negative experiences in similar type programs (not so sure of the similarities any longer), I am having a difficult time in understanding some of the mind control issues which you all have spoken about and have also provided links. I am evaluating this information and seeking other avenues of understanding.
Thanks again for your thoughts."
DC, I know I'm glad to hear it.
The mind control that is most disturbing, the stuff that haunts us some 20 years later, are the things that you and some other parents might consider "little things". You have to ask WHY they employ those techniques.
WHY prohibit access to downtime - reading material, music, games, etc. Of course, consider age-appropriateness, but why deny it all together?
WHY have someone observe you - I mean OBSERVE you on the toilet or in the shower?
WHY pound kiddie songs into the heads of kids who are closer to voting booths than playskool toys?
I don't meant to sound like a broken record, but the WHYs are the most important questions. And being told that you cannot ASK "why" is really suspect, don't you think?"
Allow me to respond to these questions.
WHY prohibit access to downtime - So that these teens can focus soley on THEMSELVES and WHAT they need to change. They are not there for vaction or fun, but to WORK on themselves and their attitudes.
WHY have someone observe you - I mean OBSERVE you on the toilet or in the shower?
When I was in the program, this happened only on 1st Phase...and I was not "observed", merely in the same room with an "oldcomer". They never watched me, just turned their backs. As for the bath/shower, I had a shower curtain pulled- but they remained in the room. WHY? Because MOST teens do NOT want to face their poor actions, attitudes, choices, and would MUCH rather run away than FACE reality. THAT'S why someone is ALWAYS with your during 1st phase (1/6th of the program.)
WHY pound kiddie songs into the heads of kids who are closer to voting booths than playskool toys?
Those songs are used for a couple different reasons. One of them was for passing time between "raps", so that you're not just sitting. Another reason for them is to relate yourself to growing up all over again. So many teens want to rule the home, make ALL of their own decisions in life (even though they're not mature enough to YET), and grow up WAY TOO FAST. These types of songs ground you back into your childhood, and help one to try to feel "carefree" again, as they did when they had a clean conscience and not so much guilt (for sneaky, dishonest choices that were causing havoc in their lives and their families lives).
My parents asked these questions when I went into the program, and were given very sound and solid answers. No big mystery/ cult-plots there.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 09, 2005, 11:21:00 AM
Quote
WHY prohibit access to downtime - So that these teens can focus soley on THEMSELVES and WHAT they need to change. They are not there for vaction or fun, but to WORK on themselves and their attitudes.
So, you're supposed to focus 100% of your thoughts to self (which is vague) for 100% of the time you're awake? No scheduled breaks?
Quote
WHY have someone observe you - I mean OBSERVE you on the toilet or in the shower?
When I was in the program, this happened only on 1st Phase...and I was not "observed", merely in the same room with an "oldcomer". They never watched me, just turned their backs. As for the bath/shower, I had a shower curtain pulled- but they remained in the room. WHY? Because MOST teens do NOT want to face their poor actions, attitudes, choices, and would MUCH rather run away than FACE reality. THAT'S why someone is ALWAYS with your during 1st phase (1/6th of the program.)
How long is first phase? I know I was on first phase for four months - some were on it for six, that I know of.
You mean to tell me that someone is going to spring out of a shower bare-assed and bolt? Sounds pretty silly to me. Sounds like a control mechanism, don't you think?
And what about the embarrassment and vulnerability factor? Teens are inherently self conscious - drugs or no drugs - why exploit that?
Maybe they changed the rules - but personally, I had eyeballs staring at me when I was sitting on the pot. Again.. why can't you have a door on the stall? What's going to happen?
Quote
WHY pound kiddie songs into the heads of kids who are closer to voting booths than playskool toys?
Those songs are used for a couple different reasons. One of them was for passing time between "raps", so that you're not just sitting. Another reason for them is to relate yourself to growing up all over again. So many teens want to rule the home, make ALL of their own decisions in life (even though they're not mature enough to YET), and grow up WAY TOO FAST. These types of songs ground you back into your childhood, and help one to try to feel "carefree" again, as they did when they had a clean conscience and not so much guilt (for sneaky, dishonest choices that were causing havoc in their lives and their families lives).
In medicine, observing someone engaging in under- age-appropriate behavior on a regular basis would raise questions of a developmental delay.
Essentially, that's what regressing back to childhood is - a developmental delay. How can that be therapeutic?
Why do you think they don't use that modality in adult drug addiction?
Quote
My parents asked these questions when I went into the program, and were given very sound and solid answers. No big mystery/ cult-plots there.
So they accepted these answers? Why didn't they ask the questions I just asked you?[ This Message was edited by: ~-=Sara=-~ on 2005-02-09 08:25 ]
Post by: GregFL on February 09, 2005, 11:22:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-02-08 13:49:00, DC wrote:
"Hello all,
I appreciate your concern over my wherabouts. I know you are thinking about my daughter. I have been given alot of information and I am going over it all and discussing it with my wife. While I realize that most posters here have had negative experiences in similar type programs (not so sure of the similarities any longer), I am having a difficult time in understanding some of the mind control issues which you all have spoken about and have also provided links. I am evaluating this information and seeking other avenues of understanding.
Thanks again for your thoughts."
Good luck DC!
Keep it up...an open mind empowers you.
Just as a sidenote, the techniques are essentially similar. "abuse" defined by violence ebbs and flows in these places. As you know, GT had some instances as early as last year. Because right now today no one is being restrained does not mean the cultic mind control isn't harmfull.
GOOD LUCK AGAIN.
Post by: Antigen on February 09, 2005, 12:27:00 PM
1) Why no down time?
I mean NO down time, none, not a moment's rest.
Maybe that's changed. I certainly hope so, but I sort of doubt it. These people have been fanatics for decades and it's just extremely unlikely that they somehow have seen the light very recently and become temperate and sensible.
Some of what they preach is quite sensible, but some really is not. If it were all just sound advice and fact based counseling, there would be no need to addle the clients heads. So things like systematic sleep deprivation and intensely emotional manipulation are a red flag that something's not quite right.
Very early in this thread, I made a comparison between grounding a kid for a short time and the total isolation that the programs we're familiar with use. For the past 3 decades we've heard about how they're only, very innocently, trying to get these wayward kids to focus on themselves.
But if the kids are not given adequate sleep and are kept constantly busy mentally and on edge emotionally, they're not focusing on themselves. They're not focusing on anything! W/o adequate rest, it becomes impossible to think. Your judgement and even your very perceptions become unreliable.
It's not that hard to understand. You must have some time in your life in which you have experienced sleep deprivation and stress. Maybe it was just excessive recreation or maybe a time when you took on too much responsibility. In the real world, you call in sick or stick it out as long as you have to then take some kind of break and get back on track.
In the Program it just goes on and on and on till you can't distinguish between your own thoughts and those of the group. Then you graduate and find out that everything you learned is useless, unless you hang around and go on staff.
That can be quite disturbing and can have long term effects.
2) Keep on thinking! We're all pulling for you and your daughter and everyone else down there.
Question with boldness even the existance of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
Post by: DC on February 09, 2005, 04:45:00 PM
I just wanted to thank you all again. I know that this is a subject that still holds alot of emotion for most of you. Your message did not fall on deaf ears. I am still on the quest. My daughter is almost finished with the program, so I wish I would have found your site sooner.
As far as sleep depravation goes, I think that part of the program has changed. There is some "down time" for the kids now. There has not been a night when I had kids in my home that we all didn't sit around and tell jokes and laugh. I really know that the program sucks for these kids and I have always tried to keep things light in my home. I know that some of the kids don't belong in treatment at all (in any treatment center). I can sympathize with anyone that hasn't gotten enough sleep. I suffer from sleep depravation from time to time and it sucks. I am glad that they do not employ this technique any longer. I know that alot of the rules have changed recently, because I hear stories from staff members about some of the things that used to be done.
I know I really tried to make the right decision with my daughter. If it was just a behavoral issue then I know it could have been handled differently. I truly was scared for her life. I feel like I have her back, and I know that if she has problems stemming from the program in the future, I will point her in your direction as well as a good therapist.
Thanks again!
Post by: GregFL on February 09, 2005, 06:04:00 PM
DC, we all wish your daughter well. If she stays on her program, heres wishing an uneventfull and quick end.
When it is over, let it really be over for her.
Here's to a power-filled future, for all of you.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 10, 2005, 08:15:00 AM
Ditto to what Greg said. I too, wish you and your daughter the best. Even when she's done with her program, keep listening to her.
Things can get a little heated at times around here, but we are adults, and even act like it sometimes! :grin:
Definitely keep in touch and let us know how things are going.
S
Post by: Anonymous on February 10, 2005, 05:08:00 PM
Yes, I also hope the best for your daughter and family. I think she'll learn a lot from her experience. What she chooses to do with it is up to her.
Just remind her IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SLIP, DON'T GO WHERE IT'S SLIPPERY.
Kim
Post by: Antigen on February 10, 2005, 05:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-10 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
Just remind her IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SLIP, DON'T GO WHERE IT'S SLIPPERY.
Oh yeah, that'll do it! Just a handful of simplistic cliches and thought stoppers will do the trick IF you're willing to let someone else think for you.
Isn't that just lingo for "don't ever even think a kind thought about any old pre-program friend or anything you enjoyed or were good at before."? :roll:
The whole world is "slippery". If you're going to live a life in this world, you have to develope real, authentic agility and grace. It's just not that simple.
T'is an ill wind that blows no minds.
--Syadasti
Post by: Anonymous on February 10, 2005, 06:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-10 14:51:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-02-10 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
Just remind her IF YOU DON'T WANT TO SLIP, DON'T GO WHERE IT'S SLIPPERY.
Oh yeah, that'll do it! Just a handful of simplistic cliches and thought stoppers will do the trick IF you're willing to let someone else think for you.
Isn't that just lingo for "don't ever even think a kind thought about any old pre-program friend or anything you enjoyed or were good at before."? :roll:
The whole world is "slippery". If you're going to live a life in this world, you have to develope real, authentic agility and grace. It's just not that simple.T'is an ill wind that blows no minds.
--Syadasti
"
Calm down. I believe any rational person would know exactly what that phrase really means - without stretching it to the extreme. Even those never in a program can comprehend that one.
Post by: Antigen on February 10, 2005, 06:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-02-10 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
Calm down. I believe any rational person would know exactly what that phrase really means - without stretching it to the extreme. Even those never in a program can comprehend that one.
Sure, people who were never in a program would probably easily take one meaning from it and never give it much thought. But people who have been in these particular programs and been terrified of getting turned in for hanging on to an old "druggie stash" (clothing, music or other personal posession) or talking to old "druggie friends" (anybody you may have known prior to intake) might take another meaning entirely.
That's one of the reasons why they get away with it more or less out in the open. They use loaded language. Things that sound perfectly reasonable and worthwhile to anybody else carry a "special" meaning to a kid who's required under extreme pains to follow the "advice".
The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.
O'Brien, the apparatchik
Post by: Helena Handbasket on February 10, 2005, 08:00:00 PM
Quote
The whole world is "slippery". If you're going to live a life in this world, you have to develope real, authentic agility and grace. It's just not that simple.
:nworthy:
Almost word for word what I was going to say.
You can also work yourself into quite a panic trying to avoid all that is "slippery". Instilling fear into someone does not help them deal with anything, it only makes them fearful.
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2005, 01:47:00 PM
Is there a 6 phase still at GT? (6 month follow-up)THEN you 7-Step?
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2005, 09:23:00 AM
Post by: Troll Control on August 25, 2005, 09:44:00 AM
Post by: Desperate on August 31, 2005, 08:51:00 AM
Post by: Troll Control on August 31, 2005, 11:43:00 AM
Did you ever stop to think about how the program works? The methods used are proven by decades of research to be ineffective at behavior change and much research shows them to be harmful to the developing mind.
Whether you'd like to admit it or not, the "program" is likely to cause more harm to your child than the behavior for which she/he was sent there to address.
You're not the first, and certainly won't be the last...There's a sucker born every minute.
Post by: Troll Control on August 31, 2005, 11:46:00 AM
"Executive staff is a joke at Growing Together. They are nazi-like, pms, bad decision making women who DO NOT have the better interest of your child. They think it is more important for Parents to drink the GT Kool-Aid and believe every word that comes out of their mentally impaired minds.
I just pulled my kid!"
Cult indoctrination at its finest. Drink that kool-aid, lady...
Post by: dbucfan on September 05, 2005, 10:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-08-31 08:43:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote::rofl: :rofl: :wave:
""DeadInsaneJail," typical sales tool of the program.
Did you ever stop to think about how the program works? The methods used are proven by decades of research to be ineffective at behavior change and much research shows them to be harmful to the developing mind.
Whether you'd like to admit it or not, the "program" is likely to cause more harm to your child than the behavior for which she/he was sent there to address.
You're not the first, and certainly won't be the last...There's a sucker born every minute.
"
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 06, 2005, 08:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-05 19:26:00, dbucfan wrote:
:rofl: :rofl: :wave: "
Well, hello to you too, Darren! :razz:
Post by: Desperate on September 07, 2005, 05:52:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on September 07, 2005, 06:38:00 PM
Second, most of the time you realy are over reacting. Your kid probably wasn't going to die.
Even in cases where the kid is actually in need of some sort of drastic intervention, the program offered by GT (a Synanon based TC just like Straight/LIFE) is not saving anybody. All they do is get you and, sometimes, the kids so thoroughly convinced of iminent death by reefer smoke that you think that the fact that you're all alive is proof that the Program "works".
Now you'll probably be out trying desperately to convince all of your kids former friends' parents that their kids are on death's door too. Hopefully, they won't listen to you.
so long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 06:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-07 14:52:00, Desperate wrote:
It was only a matter of time to where my child would be dead.
Is that your professional opinion, Doctor?
Your kid will hate you in 10 years, maybe less, but they will definitely hate you. Good going. You failed as a parent when you sent your child to one of those teen mindfuck centers.
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 06:50:00 PM
Despite the naysayers here, sitting around and doing nothing until it is too late is never an answer. These people don't know your child nor do they care about your child, only their agenda.
Remember you do care, that's what counts, not anonymous propaganda.
Post by: Antigen on September 07, 2005, 07:16:00 PM
We are well familiar with the program, though, as well as with the fact that we're not Santa.
The problem with the "teen help" industry is that it's a bad "solution" in search of a problem.
Julie C.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 07, 2005, 07:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-07 14:52:00, Desperate wrote:
"I presently have a child in GT and I put my child in this program to save their life. It was only a matter of time to where my child would be dead. My child was completely out of control.
...and what exactly is "completely out of control"??
Quote
With all due respect to this forum all that is said is what abuse these kids go thru, nothing is mentioned the abuse their parents endured to resort to such drastic measures.
So, you've endured such abuses such as strip searches, restraint without reason and indignaties such as having someone watch you change your feminine hygeine appliances? Been denied food?
What abuses have you endured?
Quote
Yes privaledges are taken away and everything must be earned back BUT what is so wrong with that?"
So, relieving yourself and showering in private is a privelege? Being able to know that natural disaster has occurred is a privelege? (This is going on the assumption that your kid is a lower phaser, and is not allowed any mention of current events - no news from the outside world so they "can focus on themselves")
Also, assuming your kid is a lower phaser, and thus not allowed to attend school - Education is a privelege to be earned?
Yes, I sound angry, because I am. I really hope you will explain how any of this helps??
Post by: Nihilanthic on September 07, 2005, 08:09:00 PM
Taking away priviladges (per the definition of the program, that includes basic human rights and education.... :???: ) and doling them back when they conform isn't 'therapy', its making them conform! The specific 'priviladges' that are taken away that result in humiliation, such as observation and time limits on hygene, elmination and in the case of girls feminie hygene are not 'therapeutic', its just breaking them down. Hell many programs call you a thief if you use more than so many squares of toilet paper or use too many pads or tampons, come on.
Being totally isolated from the outside world is not about 'focusing on yourself'. That statemnt is simply to excuse the isolation and is utter nonsense. People don't magically become introspective if theyre kept in a cage, metaphorically or otherwise. Feeling trapped doesn't either! Its not something you can FORCE, its something they have to want to do - and you cant 'make them want to' either. Some things HAVE to happen at their own pace.
Now, isolation and what really happens - the program becoming their entire existance because the outside world basically doesnt even exist to them anymore, does basically make their minds and emotions open up in a way thats about as gentle and therapeutic to the child as shucking an oyster is to the mollusc, especially when the terms and conditions of moving up the levels is having an emotional breakdown and sharing all your personal crap.
BTW, did you know that its rather often that the child either runs out of sob stories and 'juicy details' so they have to make them up, or figures out they can make up stuff before they run out... and just make crap up?
All the 'emotional growth' is just that - isolate the kid from everything and everyone, no free time for enjoyment, no self time (which is where you actually focus on yourself, not in a seminar where you're in a gale of emotions and tears) and certainly nothing enjoyable or even comfortable until they 'earn it' - and then losing what they 'earned' is held over them like a guillotine.
Therapy isnt something that can be 'intensive' or as it implies, forced, Desperate. YOUR hurry to 'fix' your kid doesnt make it so that in reality you can hurry up to clean the blemish that is your child like you can scrub a little faster to get a stain out of some clothes.
Before I rant and repeat whats been said a million times before... again... why not share with us how this program is supposed to actually help your child, anyway? How can you FORCE therapy and growth, and how does that program actually go about doing it? What does GT do to help, and what would some specifics about it be? Do you even know? How often do you talk to your kid, and is it censored?
Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
Post by: dbucfan on September 07, 2005, 10:08:00 PM
like me! :wave:
Post by: dbucfan on September 07, 2005, 10:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-07 16:35:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:Yes helena fulloshit...EVERY child is abused in the program and EVERY child has faced indignities. Bullshit!!! Stop generalizing!!! every child does NOT got through those horrible abuses. :roll:
"Quote
On 2005-09-07 14:52:00, Desperate wrote:
"I presently have a child in GT and I put my child in this program to save their life. It was only a matter of time to where my child would be dead. My child was completely out of control.
...and what exactly is "completely out of control"??Quote
With all due respect to this forum all that is said is what abuse these kids go thru, nothing is mentioned the abuse their parents endured to resort to such drastic measures.
So, you've endured such abuses such as strip searches, restraint without reason and indignaties such as having someone watch you change your feminine hygeine appliances? Been denied food?
What abuses have you endured?Quote
Yes privaledges are taken away and everything must be earned back BUT what is so wrong with that?"
So, relieving yourself and showering in private is a privelege? Being able to know that natural disaster has occurred is a privelege? (This is going on the assumption that your kid is a lower phaser, and is not allowed any mention of current events - no news from the outside world so they "can focus on themselves")
Also, assuming your kid is a lower phaser, and thus not allowed to attend school - Education is a privelege to be earned?
Yes, I sound angry, because I am. I really hope you will explain how any of this helps??"
Post by: Nihilanthic on September 08, 2005, 12:40:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-07 19:08:00, dbucfan wrote:
"sounds like you are saying that there is no doubt that a child that has been put through a program will hate their parents...you did say definately...well...i dont hate my parents. My parents didnt fail. They gave a shit. So to all the doom and gloom naysayers yes...once again i will say it... IT WORKED FOR SOME PEOPLE!!!
like me! :wave: "
So, the abuse 'works' for some people? You heard of the analogy that if a kid goes to a program with a cold, the cold goes away on its own... that the program can and will take credit for it, right? Most people that are in a program are in so long, and in that time of their life, that they simply GROW UP and the program takes credit!
And if youve been indoctrinated to think the program is the cure for all ills, you will too!
Tell me, just what about it works? What did it do to help you? How does the therapy work? What are their methods? Got any details at all?
Any? :roll:
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
--Anonymous
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 08, 2005, 12:42:00 AM
Quote
Yes helena fulloshit...EVERY child is abused in the program and EVERY child has faced indignities. Bullshit!!! Stop generalizing!!! every child does NOT got through those horrible abuses. :roll: "
Darren, as usual, you add nothing to the the conversation. You don't answer the questions posed, and you offer nothing, except to say *insert Goofy's voice here* "Yup, yup - ah worked for me!"
Once again: The POINT of this conversation, is just because you and some others thrived on shit, doesn't mean everyone thrives on shit. Also, the fact that one has no CRITERIA to meet for any of these programs, means everyone is getting indiscriminate treatment. What kind of moron treats a bulemic the same way they treat a heroin addict, huh?
Christ Darren, if ass-rape was "therapeutic" for you, it must help everyone, right???? :lol:
Post by: dbucfan on September 08, 2005, 10:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-07 21:42:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Quote
Yes helena fulloshit...EVERY child is abused in the program and EVERY child has faced indignities. Bullshit!!! Stop generalizing!!! every child does NOT got through those horrible abuses. :wave:
Post by: dbucfan on September 08, 2005, 10:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-07 21:40:00, Nihilanthic wrote:So if you were not abused while attending the program, you were mindfucked and cannot have benefited even if the life you lead currently shows otherwise. ok...riiiggghhhtt.
"Quote
On 2005-09-07 19:08:00, dbucfan wrote:
"sounds like you are saying that there is no doubt that a child that has been put through a program will hate their parents...you did say definately...well...i dont hate my parents. My parents didnt fail. They gave a shit. So to all the doom and gloom naysayers yes...once again i will say it... IT WORKED FOR SOME PEOPLE!!!
like me! :wave: "
So, the abuse 'works' for some people? You heard of the analogy that if a kid goes to a program with a cold, the cold goes away on its own... that the program can and will take credit for it, right? Most people that are in a program are in so long, and in that time of their life, that they simply GROW UP and the program takes credit!
And if youve been indoctrinated to think the program is the cure for all ills, you will too!
Tell me, just what about it works? What did it do to help you? How does the therapy work? What are their methods? Got any details at all?
Any? :roll:Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground."
--Anonymous
and when did anyone say the program was a cure for "all" ills?
to answer your questions...
dont know just did.
brought me closer to my family and made me appreciate them a helluva lot more than i did
not sure how it works but it did.
talking, building relationships with my peers in a peer only environment,strip away the BS then build me back up...if i remember correctly.
no...not many details.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 08, 2005, 10:46:00 PM
Quote
]yup...right again...it seems like you could use some "therapy" as uptight as you are! relax...it'll be ok! :wave: "
I'm uptight?? Baby please! You're the one with nothing to say other than "Ayup...worked for me." It's not me holding on to some doctrine with no proof.
Hey, Darren, we've been going at this a long time. Feel free to call me Sara. :wink:
Post by: Nihilanthic on September 08, 2005, 11:01:00 PM
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
--Philosopher, Blaise Pascal
Post by: dbucfan on September 09, 2005, 12:11:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-08 19:46:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:sara...sweety please...i AM the proof...all the proof I need! GRRR your are a smarmy one tonight!
"Quote
]yup...right again...it seems like you could use some "therapy" as uptight as you are! relax...it'll be ok! :wave: "
I'm uptight?? Baby please! You're the one with nothing to say other than "Ayup...worked for me." It's not me holding on to some doctrine with no proof.
Hey, Darren, we've been going at this a long time. Feel free to call me Sara. :wink:
"
Post by: dbucfan on September 09, 2005, 12:16:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-08 20:01:00, Nihilanthic wrote:Thanks Niles...BTW you sir are definately in need of a lay...sara sure seems like she still has her butt cherry...please take it from her so she may relax...just kidding sara, you strike me as VERY mellow and cool with poise like i have never seen...keep up the good work baby cakes. :wink:
"(http://http://home.ripway.com/2004-8/154813/niles.jpg)Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
--Philosopher, Blaise Pascal
Post by: Nihilanthic on September 09, 2005, 12:29:00 AM
Good day Sir!
Impiety: Your irreverence toward my deity.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 09, 2005, 08:23:00 AM
Niles, I trust you'd be a perfect gentleman on our date, hmmmm?
Now, Darren, something tells me if a lady still has her cherry in other places, you'd consider that virtuous. Don't be a hippocrate, babycakes! :lol:
[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-09-09 05:35 ]
Post by: Nihilanthic on September 09, 2005, 09:17:00 PM
Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, American poet
Post by: dbucfan on September 09, 2005, 11:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-09 05:23:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Oh I do say now - "Smarmy" and "Liaison" in the same thread! :nworthy:
Niles, I trust you'd be a perfect gentleman on our date, hmmmm?
Now, Darren, something tells me if a lady still has her cherry in other places, you'd consider that virtuous. Don't be a hippocrate, babycakes! :rofl:
Post by: dbucfan on September 09, 2005, 11:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-09 18:17:00, Nihilanthic wrote:::puke:: :eek:
"I do say, if that scoundrel Darren should ever insinuate even the slightest against this fair Helena's virtue, I shall be forced to throw down my glove, leap out of the handbasket, and challenge him to a duel for the honor of the fair lady!Forgive, O Lord, my little joke on Thee and I'll forgive Thy great big one on me."
--Robert Frost, American poet
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 10, 2005, 01:13:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-09 20:18:00, dbucfan wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-09 05:23:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Oh I do say now - "Smarmy" and "Liaison" in the same thread! :nworthy:
Niles, I trust you'd be a perfect gentleman on our date, hmmmm?
Now, Darren, something tells me if a lady still has her cherry in other places, you'd consider that virtuous. Don't be a hippocrate, babycakes! :rofl: "
Whatsa matter, sweetcheeks? :lol:
Post by: dbucfan on September 10, 2005, 09:05:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-09 22:13:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-09 20:18:00, dbucfan wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-09-09 05:23:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Oh I do say now - "Smarmy" and "Liaison" in the same thread! :nworthy:
Niles, I trust you'd be a perfect gentleman on our date, hmmmm?
Now, Darren, something tells me if a lady still has her cherry in other places, you'd consider that virtuous. Don't be a hippocrate, babycakes! :rofl: "
Whatsa matter, sweetcheeks? :razz:
Post by: Desperate on September 10, 2005, 09:15:00 AM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 10, 2005, 09:33:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-10 06:15:00, Desperate wrote:
"I agree with your views Kim.You have no idea how your views have supported me.. I too see no abuse in learning to be responsible in life. My child was headed for a quick death.. Thank you again. "
I'm interested in knowing why you didn't answer the other questions.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on September 10, 2005, 09:40:00 AM
Quote
The defense of your honor is SOOOO SWEET that it sickens me :razz: "
I'll tell your wife you said that... or has she missed out in the humor sense department as well? :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on October 12, 2005, 10:47:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on October 13, 2005, 09:03:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-10-12 19:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Everything that went on in LIFe goes on in GT. I was in there two years ago. just so you know."
It's too bad Darren hasn't checked in lately - he was one of the original GT-ites that were farmed over from LIFE.
I was in LIFE in '84. Let me know if you want to compare notes.
Post by: Anonymous on April 09, 2007, 03:34:00 AM
hey... does she talk to you now .... it's been years..... what is she doing? is she okay? i hope so, but what a fool you are.
Post by: farlessgreg on March 19, 2010, 08:37:47 PM
TRYING TO GET A HOLD OF STEVE KAZZMARSKI AND PHIL PERINIE.
Post by: farlessgreg on March 19, 2010, 08:56:00 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Hi DC
I WENT THROUGH LIFE 1986 AND MOVED TO GT 1987 THE PROGRAM SAVED MY LIFE LOOKING FOR OLD FRIENDS ALSO
I was in the L.I.F.E. program in the 80's for a year before going through the "6th Phase" and graduating successfully. I was PISSED and stunned when I went in, and didn't do much at first except feel REGRETFUL for things I had done to GET myself there. However, I DID start to learn some things and progressed through the Program.
Today I am in my 30's, and I feel very blessed to have been a part of that program. It helped me in MANY ways, and never was I abused in any form nor did I witness ANY abuse there ( and I visited often after completing). Yes, I had no make-up, tv, radio, etc. for months (ewww - how awful, huh?), and I didn't attend school for the first 3 months, but when I returned to high school on 3rd phase I earned honor roll for the first time! What I learned there was how to communicate my feelings, how to improve my self esteem and how to set priorities in my life. I learned to be a leader instead of a follower. I learned to be more rational in my thinking.
Was it FUN?? No -- especially not in the beginning!! Was it suppose to be FUN? No! Did I have some of the BEST times of my life once I made 6 phase?? You BET!! I have GREAT memories of dances, Proms, camping trips, etc...(with TONS of photo's to prove it) and have MANY of my best friends today are from my "program" days.
I have been to Growing Together many times (though not lately). When I was there, it was a really good program, and I don't doubt that is still is today.
Good for you that you care enough about your daughter to HELP her, instead of doing nothing. You have a BIG committment yourself to that program, and it's not easy (but nothing worth while ever is). I remember my parents going to talk to one of my friends that I was drinking with (prior to the program) because they saw in the paper she had been arrested for burglery... her mom just skipped right over the topic of treatment/programs. 6 years later (when she was 22) our local paper reported her murder the day after Halloween. She was prostituting, involved in drugs and was stabbed to death over 20 times, and left by the side of the road! I grew up with this giril from age 2 till we were 16 (and I went into the program). I wish SHE had gotten treatment (anywhere). Her killer has never been found.
As for the posts you've received here... don't think that you can change any of these people's minds with the TRUTH. They won't "go there". Most are STUCK. Sad but true.
Kim