Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Valhalla on September 29, 2006, 06:32:29 PM
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I'm trying to get together a list of those no longer with us for the Memorial Service.
If anyone knows a name that should be added or a clarification made, please let me know.
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I know that Glenn Jenkins from Stoughton MA has died. COD, Suicide.
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Wasn't Kristin S. in, in 86? At Michelle E.W. 's house ? Anyone remember?
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St. Pete
David Correy...1989 DUI accident
Mike Roberts....2002? overdose
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Dean Mistretta....AIDS
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Kenny Sykes was in the seed, not the straight.
Scooter, RIP my friend.
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There was a kid named Ken Sykes in Straight St. Pete '82
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All the above names have been added to the list....with the exception of Dean.
I believe Kristin Stottlemeyer was in 1986.
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Kenny Sykes was in the seed, not the straight.
Scooter, RIP my friend.
Could this be the same 'Ken Sykes' on the list then? Can anyone clarify this?
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Jerry Vancil
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Jerry Vancil
From St. Pete, right?
I read something about him and there was a question about whether he was alive or dead. Are you sure he is dead? Do you have a date?
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Yeah he was from St. Pete. I have no idea whether he's alive or dead. I just heard that he disappeared.
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Ken Sykes would have been older than most in the Straight. I know his sisters also went into the straight, and his brother and sister were in the seed circa 1973 One of his sisters has posted here before.
Ken died in a car accident...at least the one that was in the seed.
Was he also in Straight later? I don't know.
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Jerry Vancil
I added him to the list as 'disappeared'.
If anyone has a date for that time, please let me know.
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Ken Sykes would have been older than most in the Straight. I know his sisters also went into the straight, and his brother and sister were in the seed circa 1973 One of his sisters has posted here before.
Ken died in a car accident...at least the one that was in the seed.
Was he also in Straight later? I don't know.
I'll keep 'Kenny Sykes' on the list. I have a date of 1997 for him, so perhaps Ken and Kenny are, in fact, two different people. If you have a date for 'Ken Sykes', that would certainly help clarify it.
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What about suicides and deaths from the Straights called by other names: Kids Helping Kids, Pathways, SAFE, LIFE, Kids of NJ/BC, Kids of el Paso, and any others I have missed? I don't have time to look into this myself right now, sorry.
Since we know Straight is still alive in Ohio and other places, and existed in only slightly varied form in cults by other names, and all were spawned by the same monster, I encourage an inclusive view.
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What about suicides and deaths from the Straights called by other names: Kids Helping Kids, Pathways, SAFE, LIFE, Kids of NJ/BC, Kids of el Paso, and any others I have missed? I don't have time to look into this myself right now, sorry.
Since we know Straight is still alive in Ohio and other places, and existed in only slightly varied form in cults by other names, and all were spawned by the same monster, I encourage an inclusive view.
I somehow knew this would be coming...since GregFL posted about Ken Sykes being in the Seed.
Who should we include in this? They are all somehow related.
Let me check with those organizing the Memorial Service...I'll get back to you on that.
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Ken Sykes would have been older than most in the Straight. I know his sisters also went into the straight, and his brother and sister were in the seed circa 1973 One of his sisters has posted here before.
Ken died in a car accident...at least the one that was in the seed.
Was he also in Straight later? I don't know.
I do not think they are the same person. The one I remember from Straight in '82 or '83 was about fifteen at the time. I am sure his name was Ken Sykes (Sikes?).
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Dale Neville and Greg Northrup, both from Springfield. funster could tell you about them.
Jim Brown, from Springfield. Died on the side of I-95 down in FLA, circa 1987, hit by a semi while changing a flat.
Tracy Andersen...not sure if he's dead or alive, heard that he was drowned in a flood shortly after graduation from the program. Anyone have more info on him ??
Heard Harry T&ylor was in a bad motorcycle accident, sometime after his final cop-out. He came in about an hour after me. Heard he had sustained major head injuries.
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Dale Neville and Greg Northrup, both from Springfield. funster could tell you about them.
Jim Brown, from Springfield. Died on the side of I-95 down in FLA, circa 1987, hit by a semi while changing a flat.
Tracy Andersen...not sure if he's dead or alive, heard that he was drowned in a flood shortly after graduation from the program. Anyone have more info on him ??
Heard Harry T&ylor was in a bad motorcycle accident, sometime after his final cop-out. He came in about an hour after me. Heard he had sustained major head injuries.
Thanks! I will add them to the list.
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Dale Neville and Greg Northrup, both from Springfield. funster could tell you about them.
Jim Brown, from Springfield. Died on the side of I-95 down in FLA, circa 1987, hit by a semi while changing a flat.
Tracy Andersen...not sure if he's dead or alive, heard that he was drowned in a flood shortly after graduation from the program. Anyone have more info on him ??
Heard Harry T&ylor was in a bad motorcycle accident, sometime after his final cop-out. He came in about an hour after me. Heard he had sustained major head injuries.
How can I get hold of funster regarding Dale Nevile and Greg Northrup?
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Tell him to stick out his cock and I'm sure he'll hop to.
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Dale Neville and Greg Northrup, both from Springfield. funster could tell you about them.
Jim Brown, from Springfield. Died on the side of I-95 down in FLA, circa 1987, hit by a semi while changing a flat.
Tracy Andersen...not sure if he's dead or alive, heard that he was drowned in a flood shortly after graduation from the program. Anyone have more info on him ??
Heard Harry T&ylor was in a bad motorcycle accident, sometime after his final cop-out. He came in about an hour after me. Heard he had sustained major head injuries.
How can I get hold of funster regarding Dale Nevile and Greg Northrup?
pm or I can call him. I got his number here somewhere.
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Kent Campbell (Bradley) St. Pete. circa 1983. I can't confirm this but thought I'd mention it because I've heard from several different people that he died. I don't know how and have no idea when.
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I had lots of friends and they died, they died. :skull:
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Kent Campbell (Bradley) St. Pete. circa 1983. I can't confirm this but thought I'd mention it because I've heard from several different people that he died. I don't know how and have no idea when.
Thank you. I added his name.
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I had lots of friends and they died, they died. :skull:
I'm sure that everyone knows at least a few on the list. If you could give their names, it would certainly help us in remembering them specifically.
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Stoc Marcut was one of them.
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Stoc Marcut was one of them.
From which location? Do you have a date?
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Stoc Marcut was one of them.
From which location? Do you have a date?
Right. Wallstreet, perhaps?
Bloody hell! There's always a bad one in the bunch. Save it for another time and another post.
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Alaska Straight.
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Reagan Fields had some considerable pluck when he turned up. I'll never forget when they introduced him to us. I fell in love right then. He had gone missing from an intake room just before open meeting. They had left him alone in there and so he lifted a ceiling tile, climbed up in there and was going to wait it out and just leave after everybody went home. At some point during the evening, though, he lost his footing and came crashing down into the staff office.
I had always planned on looking him up after I lost the extra weight, acne, funky haircut, fleurescant tan and had time to get the Program shuffle out of my walk and speech. By the time I did, Reagan was gone. He'd been liberating some bottles of whiskey from someone's house when either the owner or the cops came through the front door. Reagan bolted out the back right through a plate glass sliding door, cutting a major artery in his leg. Rather than go through the hell of getting caught, he hid under a bush while people were looking for him, calling out for him. He stayed silent and bled out.
What a fucking waste! And more fucked up than that? I'm not entirely sure that wasn't a sensible way to play it. I don't know how much hell he'd been through already. He was still there when I left in late `82 and things had already started to go beyond the pale even for that place. Maybe he really just couldn't have taken any more. RIP you balsey mother fucker. Wish we had been able to share more than that fucked up nightmare.
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(silent nod of respect)
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There was a guy named Harry from Springfield who died. It was around 1984-85. He took off, and shoplifted a bottle of liquor. He stuffed it in his shirt. The store owner tried chasing him, and Harry fell on the bottle while trying to get away. Died from internal injuries. Shit, I was his friend, but can't remember his last name.
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http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=18205 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=18205)
STOUGHTON
I can recall some names, Peter Burke the rebel, Nathan Britton, Marty Devaney, Glenn Jenkins (who recently committed suicide),
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All names from the previous posts, that weren't already on the list, have been added. Thank you.
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I'm trying to get together a list of those no longer with us for the Memorial Service.
If anyone knows a name that should be added or a clarification made, please let me know.
Here is the most complete list to date...
[Admin note: list edited out at the request of the original author, Valhalla. I believe she's still keeping a list, but not making it publid if you want to contact her w. info.]
Melvin tried :cry2:
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There was a guy named Harry from Springfield who died. It was around 1984-85. He took off, and shoplifted a bottle of liquor. He stuffed it in his shirt. The store owner tried chasing him, and Harry fell on the bottle while trying to get away. Died from internal injuries. Shit, I was his friend, but can't remember his last name.
Harry Taylor?
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WE ARE THE DEAD
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STOP SPAMMING STEVE THAT IS NOT KEWL
DO NOT B SPAMMING K
IT IS NOT KEWL TO SPAM THE STR8 4UM LIKE U B DOIN K
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DAED EHT ERA EW
NATAS MA I
NOTWEN RELLIM ROF TIHSGOD TAE
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DAED EHT ERA EW
NATAS MA I
NOTWEN RELLIM ROF TIHSGOD TAE
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :evil: :o ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha::
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STOP SPAMMING STEVE THAT IS NOT KEWL
DO NOT B SPAMMING K
IT IS NOT KEWL TO SPAM THE STR8 4UM LIKE U B DOIN K
THIS B THE LIST I WAZ LOOKIN 4.
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STOP SPAMMING STEVE THAT IS NOT KEWL
DO NOT B SPAMMING K
IT IS NOT KEWL TO SPAM THE STR8 4UM LIKE U B DOIN K
THIS B THE LIST I WAZ LOOKIN 4.
I WAZ NT TRYIN 2 SPAM ....................................
ESPECIALLY N THIS MATTER !
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DAED EHT ERA EW
NATAS MA I
NOTWEN RELLIM ROF TIHSGOD TAE
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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:( AMY HAWES
Amy K. (nee Huberty) Hawes, 33, Amelia, formerly of Kalamazoo, Mich., died July 8. She was a substance abuse counselor at Kids Helping Kids in Milford, a volunteer for Humane Society/SPCA, ARC and Kids Helping Kids.
Survived by husband Wade Hawes; parents Alan and Katherine (nee Price) Huberty.
Services were July 11 at Craver-Riggs Funeral Home.
Memorials to Kids Helping Kids in Milford, and AARF.
http://news.communitypress.com/apps/pbc ... 305/0/LIFE (http://news.communitypress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060719/NEWS04/607190305/0/LIFE) :(
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:( AMY HAWES
Amy K. (nee Huberty) Hawes, 33, Amelia, formerly of Kalamazoo, Mich., died July 8. She was a substance abuse counselor at Kids Helping Kids in Milford,
Memorials to Kids Helping Kids in Milford, and AARF.
:o :o
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Arf!....I smoke hemp.. I love the dead....rip
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:( AMY HAWES
Amy K. (nee Huberty) Hawes, 33, Amelia, formerly of Kalamazoo, Mich., died July 8. She was a substance abuse counselor at Kids Helping Kids in Milford, a volunteer for Humane Society/SPCA, ARC and Kids Helping Kids.
Survived by husband Wade Hawes; parents Alan and Katherine (nee Price) Huberty.
Services were July 11 at Craver-Riggs Funeral Home.
Memorials to Kids Helping Kids in Milford, and AARF.
http://news.communitypress.com/apps/pbc ... 305/0/LIFE (http://news.communitypress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060719/NEWS04/607190305/0/LIFE) :(
Oh! You've got to be kidding me!
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I will not shed a tear for child abusers
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I will not shed a tear for child abusers
Nor will I. She was still involved with KHK at the time of her death. A wasted life, to be sure. She died a professional child abuser.
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How many folks on that list of deaths at the beginning of this topic were on staff? What about them? Do you not shed a tear or have a care? How do you know this person was still working at khk when she died? Just like yourself, she was on first phase at some point. You ought to direct your ANTIsentiments to the living folks there at the building in Milford, not to the dead former clients/staffers.
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Word; 'nuf respeck fo' dem.
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How do you know this person was still working at khk when she died?
Amy K. (nee Huberty) Hawes, 33, Amelia, formerly of Kalamazoo, Mich., died July 8. She was a substance abuse counselor at Kids Helping Kids in Milford, a volunteer for Humane Society/SPCA, ARC and Kids Helping Kids.
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Just like yourself, she was on first phase at some point. You ought to direct your ANTIsentiments to the living folks there at the building in Milford, not to the dead former clients/staffers.
Unlike me, after first phase she eventually elected to go on staff, (if indeed she was subjected to the program herself) and apparently spent some time there(she was 33). If I directed my "ANTIsentiments" to the living folks there last week, she would have been among the targets anyway, so I don't see how that changes anything. All I said was that I agreed with the poster who said they were not going to mourn the passing of a child abuser.. She made her living by abusing kids or facilitating child abuse. Not someone I am going to shed a tear over.
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July 7, 2006
On 07/07/06 at approximately 11:00pm the Union Township Police Department responded to an auto accident on I-275 southbound near the SR 32 exit. Once on scene officers discovered there were three vehicles involved in the accident.There was one serious injury that became a fatality. Killed in the accident was Amy Hawes, age 33 of Pierce Township. The accident is still under investigation at this time.
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yeah, so? Are we supposed to feel badly for her or something?
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not bad at all if that's your desire... besides, she was certified by the state as a LCDCIII in June of 2005, before the complaint dispositions had surfaced. This would also indicate that she didn't go through that program recently. This may be a case of bad karma or something... What's freaky about it is that it was on an open meeting night.
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Poetic justice. Karma. Serendipitous. TAke your pick.
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I'm sorry, I just can't equate someone who willingly goes on staff at a place like that to the kids that were the victims. If she had quit her job, apologized and tried to help I might have some sympathy. This woman was an adult that chose to go and work at that shithole. I'm not dancing on her grave but I'm not crying over it either.
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that was originally posted since khk runs exactly like straight inc, so it could be very unlikely that this person just applied for a job without prior experience on the phases. There were people in straight who were 26 on first phase then on staff in the 30's, it is conceivable that this was a case similar to that one. If it weren't for the program, she never would have worked there "thinking" she was helping. There's suckers born every minute... right?
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I'm sorry, I just can't equate someone who willingly goes on staff at a place like that to the kids that were the victims. If she had quit her job, apologized and tried to help I might have some sympathy. This woman was an adult that chose to go and work at that shithole. I'm not dancing on her grave but I'm not crying over it either.
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Looking forward to taking a big fat shit in Newton's casket when he kicks.
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Silkwood? Was Amy Hawes informing on them?
Other than that, I agree with dragonfly.
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Silkwood? Was Amy Hawes informing on them?
Other than that, I agree with dragonfly.
What's your point?
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Silkwood? Was Amy Hawes informing on them?
Other than that, I agree with dragonfly.
What's your point?
:rofl:
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Staff is just another phase of the program. My whole damned family is still in the program and they still treat me like a misbehaver. That pisses me off. But I still love them and I mourn for their wasted lives and lost and souls.
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Agreed to a certain extent but first, that's family. That's different. Second, when does personal responsibility kick in? I feel badly that she died and died young and had her value system all twisted up of the program but I cannot muster up anywhere near the sense of saddness and loss that I feel for those who didn't dedicate the rest of their lives to perpetuating this shit. I'm sick of hearing that as an excuse. It's almost as bad as the AA dicks blaming all of their assholishness (?) on the bottle.
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Agreed to a certain extent but first, that's family. That's different. Second, when does personal responsibility kick in? I feel badly that she died and died young and had her value system all twisted up of the program but I cannot muster up anywhere near the sense of saddness and loss that I feel for those who didn't dedicate the rest of their lives to perpetuating this shit. I'm sick of hearing that as an excuse. It's almost as bad as the AA dicks blaming all of their assholishness (?) on the bottle.
:nworthy: :tup:
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If anyone knows a name that should be added or a clarification made, please let me know.
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No longer with us...hmmmm.
Kerry Kashmanian, Stoughton 86. Overdose 1996. She was cute and funny. From Dorchester, ma. Left a six year old daughter behind.
Jeff Notorio, 85 Springfield, VA, Stoughton, MA - Missing, Living in woods. He was tall and dark, good friend of my family's. Lived with us for years in Scituate MA after Straight.
Chris Bartoloni. Springfield and Stoughton 1985. Died 2006. Overdose. Heroin. Left three kids. I grew up Summers with him in Scituate.
Pamela Lawrence, Springfield 1985, Stoughton - Missing, homeless, living on streets. My best friend from straight. Her dad is heartbroken.
Many more are no longer with us, but neither are they dead.
Squirrel
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Agreed to a certain extent but first, that's family. That's different. Second, when does personal responsibility kick in? I feel badly that she died and died young and had her value system all twisted up of the program but I cannot muster up anywhere near the sense of saddness and loss that I feel for those who didn't dedicate the rest of their lives to perpetuating this shit. I'm sick of hearing that as an excuse. It's almost as bad as the AA dicks blaming all of their assholishness (?) on the bottle.
Well, I think it's sadder. Ask any super straightling or super seedling... well ask them anything and brace to be treated like an apostate. Must be pretty fucked up going through life like that. My grandpa excised from his friends and family anyone who didn't attend AA. I know very, very little about his family, to me they simply didn't exist. How sad is that?
But sympathy is not the same as excuse. I don't excuse them. I'll never bend over and gratefully take it. Just that it's sad as hell to me to think of someone going through that many years with those demons in their heads and hearts and then kicking off w/o coming out of it.
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If anyone knows a name that should be added or a clarification made, please let me know.
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No longer with us...hmmmm.
Kerry Kashmanian, Stoughton 86. Overdose 1996. She was cute and funny. From Dorchester, ma. Left a six year old daughter behind.
Jeff Notorio, 85 Springfield, VA, Stoughton, MA - Missing, Living in woods. He was tall and dark, good friend of my family's. Lived with us for years in Scituate MA after Straight.
Chris Bartoloni. Springfield and Stoughton 1985. Died 2006. Overdose. Heroin. Left three kids. I grew up Summers with him in Scituate.
Pamela Lawrence, Springfield 1985, Stoughton - Missing, homeless, living on streets. My best friend from straight. Her dad is heartbroken.
Many more are no longer with us, but neither are they dead.
Squirrel
Thank you. I've put their names on the list.
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While a centralized list is a noble thought and idea, I think it may only continue to leave those unmentioned as forgotten. I was at one time making a similiar list for my particular program but found it to be counterproductive as the ones that I DIDN'T know about continued to be "left behind" so to speak. Kudos for the attempt, but it is admittedly an impossible task to record the names of all that died after the program. Speaking for myself, it was an injustice I didn't want to be a part of involving recognition of only the deaths, suicides, etc. that I knew about. Information on most of the deaths I did learn about was gleaned via second hand information anyway and I have since learned that much of the information was not factual. Heresay is rampant and for me, it was another reason my list was not cool for the deceased.
my .02
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I went to William Ferrons funeral :cry:
~ Nailbomb
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While a centralized list is a noble thought and idea, I think it may only continue to leave those unmentioned as forgotten. I was at one time making a similiar list for my particular program but found it to be counterproductive as the ones that I DIDN'T know about continued to be "left behind" so to speak. Kudos for the attempt, but it is admittedly an impossible task to record the names of all that died after the program. Speaking for myself, it was an injustice I didn't want to be a part of involving recognition of only the deaths, suicides, etc. that I knew about. Information on most of the deaths I did learn about was gleaned via second hand information anyway and I have since learned that much of the information was not factual. Heresay is rampant and for me, it was another reason my list was not cool for the deceased.
my .02
Thankyou. This has been on my mind too. We don't want to leave anyone behind but I don't really know how to solve the problem.
I think we should only read the names of those who we know for a fact are dead. Any deaths that can't be verified(one way or another) shouldn't be on the list. The reason I posted the names of T*acy Ander$en and Harry +aylor wasn't so they'd be on the list of the dead, but in case anyone had any more infornmation and could confirm the facts one way or another. Perhaps we can have a moment of silence at the service for the unknown lost.
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:idea: How about not reading off any names in an official manner? Given the purpose of the event and the people in attendance, the truly dead will be authentically memorialized. If the shoe fits them they'll surely wear it. :(
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The purpose of attendance is to hook up with survivor hotties.
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While a centralized list is a noble thought and idea, I think it may only continue to leave those unmentioned as forgotten. I was at one time making a similiar list for my particular program but found it to be counterproductive as the ones that I DIDN'T know about continued to be "left behind" so to speak. Kudos for the attempt, but it is admittedly an impossible task to record the names of all that died after the program. Speaking for myself, it was an injustice I didn't want to be a part of involving recognition of only the deaths, suicides, etc. that I knew about. Information on most of the deaths I did learn about was gleaned via second hand information anyway and I have since learned that much of the information was not factual. Heresay is rampant and for me, it was another reason my list was not cool for the deceased.
my .02
Thankyou. This has been on my mind too. We don't want to leave anyone behind but I don't really know how to solve the problem.
I think we should only read the names of those who we know for a fact are dead. Any deaths that can't be verified(one way or another) shouldn't be on the list. The reason I posted the names of T*acy Ander$en and Harry +aylor wasn't so they'd be on the list of the dead, but in case anyone had any more infornmation and could confirm the facts one way or another. Perhaps we can have a moment of silence at the service for the unknown lost.
I given a lot of thought to this, as well. There is no way to truly verify the deaths, except for seeing it first hand, I agree. So, then I REALLY only know of one, Bill Burns, as I was at his wake.
There are also several 'missing persons' on the list compiled. And who knows what ever happened to them.
The reason for posting the list was to have people confirm those on it, make any clarifications or additions. I have a feeling that the current list is fairly accurate. I've put question marks next to those in question. I'll post it again.
I think that everyone should be remembered. And a moment of silence for those forgotten would be very appropriate.
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:idea: How about not reading off any names in an official manner? Given the purpose of the event and the people in attendance, the truly dead will be authentically memorialized. If the shoe fits them they'll surely wear it. :(
I totally agree. I think remembering everyone as one and NOT addressing specific names is the most "just" thing to do for those that have passed. To address specifics only lends creedence to potentially botched information and leaves those we don't know about out of the equation. I would not rely even on "credible" information from other survivors aside from family and funeral attendees.
Personally speaking, if it were me, I would not want you all gathering and speaking my name aloud after my death. You were all the people that I knew in group and I don't have very fond memories of those days. Some of you may have been total and complete dicks and I would rather you keep my name out of your mouth. I would however appreciate being included anonymously in some sort of collective acknowledgement of ALL those that passed. Don't you agree?
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Yeah. I know what you mean.
What if instead of reading off some unverifiable list of names we allowed time for anyone who was there in attendence who wanted to, to specifically mention or talk about someone ?? time to give a eulogy of sorts ?? Know what I mean ?? That way the people who wanted to give honor to the fallen in a personal way could do it and those who wanted to be less personal could do that. Am I making any sense, I can't tell ?? Like if a person wants to bear witness or represent then I think they should.
Everyone will have their own way, and those differences will be respected, at least by me.
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This is all getting way more complicated than it needs to be.
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Yeah. I know what you mean.
What if instead of reading off some unverifiable list of names we allowed time for anyone who was there in attendence who wanted to, to specifically mention or talk about someone ?? time to give a eulogy of sorts ?? Know what I mean ?? That way the people who wanted to give honor to the fallen in a personal way could do it and those who wanted to be less personal could do that. Am I making any sense, I can't tell ?? Like if a person wants to bear witness or represent then I think they should.
Everyone will have their own way, and those differences will be respected, at least by me.
Sounds good.
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This is all getting way more complicated than it needs to be.
This is all getting way more complicated than it needs to be.
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The list is still important and needs to be created. It would be good Valhalla, if you would bring what you have at the time of the memorial to the memorial, and maybe some people there could give us more information. You know...like whatever facts and rumors you have collected we could work on verifyin' the facts or what-have-you. I mean, that needs done regardless of everything anyway. We need to create and maintain a list of the dead, with all relevant facts. I mean, it seems like it would be good to have such a list, of the fallen.
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This is all getting way more complicated than it needs to be.
This is all getting way more complicated than it needs to be.
Hey! I deleted that!!! :rofl:
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I mean, that needs done regardless of everything anyway. We need to create and maintain a list of the dead, with all relevant facts.
Absolutely.
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The list is still important and needs to be created. It would be good Valhalla, if you would bring what you have at the time of the memorial to the memorial, and maybe some people there could give us more information. You know...like whatever facts and rumors you have collected we could work on verifyin' the facts or what-have-you. I mean, that needs done regardless of everything anyway. We need to create and maintain a list of the dead, with all relevant facts. I mean, it seems like it would be good to have such a list, of the fallen.
Respectfully, I disagree. ANY list you attempt to consolidate will be obviously chock full of second hand rumors, inaccuracies, and will only attend to a small percentage of the actual deceased. Unfotunately, I have been there and done that. As a matter of fact, Wes has a lot of my information on HIS site that I have now verified as being bogus information regarding program suicides. Years ago, I wish I would not have even started the very project you are working on currently.
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Sounds like the voice of experience.
Are you thinking of attending any of the memorials ?? If you were in one of the $tr8s I would be real interested in your list and any information concerning the fallen that you might already have. Would you post your list here(excluding all the bogus info that you found out about later), or pm it to me and Valhalla so we can check it out ??
I understand what you're sayin. How difficult compiling such a list will be. But if we are dedicated and if we investigate to find the truth and if we are willing to be patient...I don't know...just seems like it needs done. After all there are official death records that are kept that can be used to verify or debunk any rumors.
There's no reason not to try is there ?? To learn what we can.
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Or is there a warning in your words that I'm not gettin'... ?? Has the list of the fallen crippled you somehow ?? taken your energy ?? Left you that much closer to death yourself ??
Thankyou. I heed your words.
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Sounds like the voice of experience.
Are you thinking of attending any of the memorials ?? If you were in one of the $tr8s I would be real interested in your list and any information concerning the fallen that you might already have. Would you post your list here(excluding all the bogus info that you found out about later), or pm it to me and Valhalla so we can check it out ??
I understand what you're sayin. How difficult compiling such a list will be. But if we are dedicated and if we investigate to find the truth and if we are willing to be patient...I don't know...just seems like it needs done. After all there are official death records that are kept that can be used to verify or debunk any rumors.
There's no reason not to try is there ?? To learn what we can.
Thanks for hanging in there with me, Starry. Let me start by saying that my list would be of no benefit to you for reasons I don't want to mention. I will say that even if it would be of benefit, adding it to the list you have put together would only counter what my previous posts have stated. I was dedicated as well, and my focus was on a single location, much less daunting than a centralized lists from all st8s. I totally respect your endeavor, however I also have enough respect for the departed to throw in my .02. I agree with the other post that I wouldn't want anyone I was in STRAIGHT with to speak my name after I passed on.
No hidden words of warning as you mentioned, Starry. Only good intentions that came from having my heart in the right place, but the wrong plan. The results of my labor are now an indelible part of Wes's work and I regret going public with the people and relative information as it was (as I mentioned) less than accurate and left many people that I wasn't aware totally out.
I was very dilligent in my research and have a very good friend that worked with the SSA. I was able to use him to my advantage, but in hindsight there were other ways that I could recognize and respect the departed rather than nose around in government records to suit my own perversely morbid curiousity (which is not how it started, but was definitely all it was in the end. A "whom died how" question that served no importance whatsoever in the big picture).
In summary, my point is this (and pardon the redundance):
I think a general memoriam is a better idea than the organization and verbalization of a specific list that includes any information aside from that gleaned from actual family or funeral attendees for two reasons, well three actually.
1.) ANY specific information on specific people is only the "tip of the iceberg" of all those that are now deceased. Acknowledging the tip of the iceberg, still leaves those that we don't know about as forgotten or in iceberg terms, "beneath the surface".
2.) At best, SOME information maybe heresay, rumors, or all the way around inaccurate. Why gamble on inaccuracies at such an important event rather than acknowledge the group as a whole.
3.) Speaking personally, I would not want anyone, friend or foe, from the program to speak my name postmort~I just wouldn't, even if they meant well and meant to be respectful. They may have been one of those that restrained me for hours that is suddenly a "survivor" or remorseful for what they did. Fuck that. If I were deceased, I would rather rest peacefully than for anyone from STRAIGHT to "pay me respect" by speaking my name at a memorial.
I don't want to rain on anyones idea, I think it is a great idea and one that I would not mind being a part of in a big way. However, I have had too many friends pass away NOT to share my opinion on the matter.
Please consider my words and how they may be of benefit both to the event and those no longer with us.
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Well, If we don't read any names, then we won't be leaving anyone out...That's been my only concern...Personally I think it is appropriate to read the list of names
So you are up for leaving people out? I guess I really don't understand, dragonfly, sounds like a contradiction. You also said "someone would not be accounted for". There were thousands and thousands in STRAIGHT, you will not be leaving "someone" out, you will be leaving hundreds and hundreds of people out.
Good intentions, but an impossible task. Think about it.
Also, do me a favor my friends from STRAIGHT, when I kick it, don't say my name and don't have Rev. Newton give any eulogies. You were not family, you were not friends. You were all characters that played a harmful role in an ugly chapter in my life that I will never forget. I was fortunate enough to live through it, many were not. Don't meet in my honor and don't speak my name. Burn a bowl of TBPITW on the couch and think to yourself...."yeah, he was a cool dude" that will make me smile wherever I am.
:)
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How can you care if you're dead? :rofl:
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Yeah. I know what you mean.
What if instead of reading off some unverifiable list of names we allowed time for anyone who was there in attendence who wanted to, to specifically mention or talk about someone ?? time to give a eulogy of sorts ?? Know what I mean ?? That way the people who wanted to give honor to the fallen in a personal way could do it and those who wanted to be less personal could do that. Am I making any sense, I can't tell ?? Like if a person wants to bear witness or represent then I think they should.
Everyone will have their own way, and those differences will be respected, at least by me.
Sounds good to me. I think having the list there, too, would perhaps be beneficial to anyone wanting to see the bigger picture.
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The list is still important and needs to be created. It would be good Valhalla, if you would bring what you have at the time of the memorial to the memorial, and maybe some people there could give us more information. You know...like whatever facts and rumors you have collected we could work on verifyin' the facts or what-have-you. I mean, that needs done regardless of everything anyway. We need to create and maintain a list of the dead, with all relevant facts. I mean, it seems like it would be good to have such a list, of the fallen.
Of course! The List will be there no matter what. I completely agree that such a list needed to be created, regardless of hearsay. At least we will have the oppurtunity to verify who is on the list and make any necessary changes to it.
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I would be real interested in your list and any information concerning the fallen that you might already have. Would you post your list here(excluding all the bogus info that you found out about later), or pm it to me and Valhalla so we can check it out ??
I understand what you're sayin. How difficult compiling such a list will be. But if we are dedicated and if we investigate to find the truth and if we are willing to be patient...I don't know...just seems like it needs done. After all there are official death records that are kept that can be used to verify or debunk any rumors.
There's no reason not to try is there ?? To learn what we can.
I would also be very interested in seeing your list, especially if you've been able to verify it. It would certainly help us out here with making ours more accurate.
And compiling this list IS difficult in many ways, but I totally agree that it needs to be done... for many reasons.
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Well, If we don't read any names, then we won't be leaving anyone out...
That's been my only concern...
Personally I think it is appropriate to read the list of names, but it has been bothering me because I knew it would not be a perfect list, somebody would not be accounted for, or as Pirate has been saying, what if we call out the name of a suicide rumor and he's standing there, could be an awkward moment...
Maybe the comprimise would be to have the list there and folks can look at it and add to it and make comments, but maybe we won't count on calling the names out...
I know that the list will never be complete. There is no way, with our resourses as they are, that it could be. It bothers me, too, that there will be people left out. I think that a moment of silence for those not accounted for would be very appropriate...to remember those that should be remembered, but were somehow forgotten.
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I would like to thank Valhalla for working so hard on this...
I'd like to say 'It's been a pleasure', but it really hasn't. I just hope it helps somehow, in some way.
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Well, If we don't read any names, then we won't be leaving anyone out...That's been my only concern...Personally I think it is appropriate to read the list of names
So you are up for leaving people out? I guess I really don't understand, dragonfly, sounds like a contradiction. You also said "someone would not be accounted for". There were thousands and thousands in STRAIGHT, you will not be leaving "someone" out, you will be leaving hundreds and hundreds of people out.
Good intentions, but an impossible task. Think about it.
I don't see that as a contradtiction...more like a dilema. Don't twist his words.
I don't want to leave anyone out either, but I also know that there is no way to be able to include everyone who should be included. That is why I think a collective rememberence should be made for those who we don't know to include.
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This is all getting way more complicated than it needs to be.
:exclaim: :exclaim:
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This is all getting way more complicated than it needs to be.
:exclaim: :exclaim:
Yep. It sure is.
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I would also be very interested in seeing your list, especially if you've been able to verify it. It would certainly help us out here with making ours more accurate.
And compiling this list IS difficult in many ways, but I totally agree that it needs to be done... for many reasons.
Sorry, Valhalla. If my redundancy didn't hit it home, I'll say it again. I am against the idea of a centralized list or named memorials because of the three reasons aforementioned. Ask someone that has been at this a while (including Wes, whom has also "been there done that") what they may think about this. I am certain they will concur that this is a futile attempt.
My list wouldn't help you.
You are admittedly accepting bogus, questionable-at-best data, with hundreds and hundreds of known omissions, as legitimate information. No seriously bonafide research is ever approached in this way.
NO list would help you.
From someone who has been there and knows: The only way that you could ever have anything close to accurate information is to cross reference a list that includes the names of every teen that ever went through all STRAIGHT facilities with the social security death index to see who is kicking and who has since kicked it.
In closing, if it hasn't already, this avenue seems to be digressing in a similiar fashion as it did years ago when I was working on a similiar list. Things soon devolve to signify nothing more than a morbidly perverse game of "who's dead and how did they die". My thoughts are that any collaborative list unfortunately has an allure analagous to watching "Faces of Death" as a teen or watching beheadings in Iraq on the internet. Only this list involves people we used to sit next to in group.
One last question, is it too much to ask to possibly talk to surviving family members of the deceased? See what they think. There are many that would be more than happy to share their opinion with you. Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post.
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Well, If we don't read any names, then we won't be leaving anyone out...
quote]
I don't understand. Why is it so important to know who exactly has died and who has not?
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I would also be very interested in seeing your list, especially if you've been able to verify it. It would certainly help us out here with making ours more accurate.
And compiling this list IS difficult in many ways, but I totally agree that it needs to be done... for many reasons.
Sorry, Valhalla. If my redundancy didn't hit it home, I'll say it again. I am against the idea of a centralized list or named memorials because of the three reasons aforementioned. Ask someone that has been at this a while (including Wes, whom has also "been there done that") what they may think about this. I am certain they will concur that this is a futile attempt.
My list wouldn't help you.
You are admittedly accepting bogus, questionable-at-best data, with hundreds and hundreds of known omissions, as legitimate information. No seriously bonafide research is ever approached in this way.
NO list would help you.
From someone who has been there and knows: The only way that you could ever have anything close to accurate information is to cross reference a list that includes the names of every teen that ever went through all STRAIGHT facilities with the social security death index to see who is kicking and who has since kicked it.
In closing, if it hasn't already, this avenue seems to be digressing in a similiar fashion as it did years ago when I was working on a similiar list. Things soon devolve to signify nothing more than a morbidly perverse game of "who's dead and how did they die". My thoughts are that any collaborative list unfortunately has an allure analagous to watching "Faces of Death" as a teen or watching beheadings in Iraq on the internet. Only this list involves people we used to sit next to in group.
One last question, is it too much to ask to possibly talk to surviving family members of the deceased? See what they think. There are many that would be more than happy to share their opinion with you. Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post.
At this point, I'm wondering if you're just trying to stir the pot. Your redundency has certainly hit home, as I have read all that you've written. I find what you say extremely unhelpful. You say a lot, but your words are empty. You don't want to help us, so why are you even bothering to post here?
'Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post'. WTF??? I don't need to ask Wes anything. Where did that even come from? This has nothing to do with him. It has everything to do with those who are dead...and we want to simly remember them.
If you have anything further to say, please feel free to PM me and use your real identiy. Otherwise, I will continue to think of you as someone simply trying to stir the pot.
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I don't understand. Why is it so important to know who exactly has died and who has not?
:nworthy: ::alieneyesa:: ::argue:: ::bangin:: ::rocker:: ::soapbox:: ::puke::
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Yes. Well... indeed...indeed.
First of all I do not have a list of the fallen. There really is no list that I know of except the one in my head and the one on Webdiva's site, which is nowhere near complete, or even close.(no disrespect to Webdiva. Her site rules!!) That's why I am glad you are workin' on it, Valhalla.
2ndly, the anon guest who advises us does so with those we want to honor in mind. I respect that. (drinkin my wine)
Everyone is an individual. Each has their way.
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Amy was my Cousins' Wife. She was very nice, and very quiet. I only met her twice, but my cousin loved her very much.
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At this point, I'm wondering if you're just trying to stir the pot. Your redundency has certainly hit home, as I have read all that you've written. I find what you say extremely unhelpful. You say a lot, but your words are empty. You don't want to help us, so why are you even bothering to post here?
'Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post'. WTF??? I don't need to ask Wes anything. Where did that even come from? This has nothing to do with him. It has everything to do with those who are dead...and we want to simly remember them.
If you have anything further to say, please feel free to PM me and use your real identiy. Otherwise, I will continue to think of you as someone simply trying to stir the pot.
I take my pot smoked...not stirred. What would possibly motivate me to "stir the pot" with you V.? What could I possibly have to gain by simply sharing an objective observation?
"Extremely unhelpful...empty words...don't want to help"? Don't confuse me as some sort of adversary because I am opposed to your agenda. My primary and only concern is for those that have passed. It's about something that I call honor, Valhalla. I see it as the epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data. Could my perspective be any more clear on the matter? I am not trying to stir up anything.
My invitation to ask Wes was because he, as I, have also attempted the same list in which you are working on, though for different reasons. Both lists were started with the best of intentions. My invitation was also to ask surviving family members to see what they think about their loved ones being on a list of the deceased put together by former STRAIGHT teens. If I were dead, my mother would promptly tell you to go shit in your hat.
Mrs. Moya has a respectable list on her website of deceased teens from contemporary treatment facilities. This is verifiable data as it is in current media and can be substantiated unlike any attempts to compile any such listing from the gulags of 20 years ago.
I won't PM you Valhalla, I don't PM anyone. This is my real identity. I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference if I log in with my regular user name, some fictitious one, or use my actual name-date of birth-and social security number. It's not ME that matters, it's the words I speak, anonymously or not.
2ndly, the anon guest who advises us does so with those we want to honor in mind. I respect that. (drinkin my wine)
Thanks, Starry. I wish I could buy you a bottle for recognizing the true nature of my words.
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The Vietnam Veterans memorial was not produced by the Viet Cong nor was that list of veterans compiled by 2-3 bozos collecting rumors and presenting it as factual information.
I am against any list to honor the dead if it cannot be approached logically, rationally, and realistically. If any list is produced with intention to honor the dead, it is my opinion that it must born of legitimate and factual information. Anything less is dishonorable.
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Hey.
Don't you realize that any logical, rational and realistic investigation of the truth begins with the collection of all potentially pertinent information ?? Which often times includes many rumors and fallacies ?? I take it you don't do much critical thinkin.
I appreciate your concern and I feel the same way as far as what is required to honor the fallen.
I take offense at your allusion to the Viet Cong.
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Anyway, This all started out as a telephone conversation between DF and I and we decided during that conversation, some months ago now, that we wanted to get together at the building to have a small memorial service for those who we knew and understood. At first we thought maybe it would just be us 2 and maybe a few others, then we decided to post about it and see if there was any interest. I think DF is taking all this very seriously. We have tried to accomodate everyone, but have naturally failed at that. When advised that holding the service at the building might be too much for some folks we looked for another location. Spent a couple of weeks trying to secure another location but found nothing. Anyone who wanted to get involved and secure a better location was welcomed to do so. We are doin' our best here. Such is life. Pirate out.
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Mrs. Moya has a respectable list on her website of deceased teens from contemporary treatment facilities. This is verifiable data as it is in current media and can be substantiated unlike any attempts to compile any such listing from the gulags of 20 years ago.
Could you throw up a link to this? It would be cool to see; thanks.
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I take offense at your allusion to the Viet Cong.
Why?
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I think some people still think that they are forever marked by shame for having been brainwashed. I think some people are fixated on their crimes and sins in such a way that they are truly killing themselves while they are still alive. If you think anything you did in Straight, including getting brainwashed by a YES, VERY CRUEL INSTITUTION WITH SOME UNDERHANDED GOVERNMENT SHIT GOING ON BEHIND IT marks you forever with shame, then you have not taken your proper place in humanity.
Let me direct you to conscripted armies of children in other countries. If you want to tell me that Straight is something YOU can never get over, then you can be of no use to these children. When you can know in your mind that you were caught up in forces and times more powerful than yourself, realize that you are (as I know and can tell you are by all the words that I have read from you) truly at core a decent and even wonderful human being, in spite of everything you did yesterday or twenty years ago, then, son, you will be transformed into a true freedom fighter on this earth.
What was perpetrated on us in Straight is a sickness the world has seen for hundreds and maybe thousands of years. You are, child, born eternal. Release yourself from the claws of history. Rise up, acknowledge that YES YOU WERE WHIPPED LIKE SLAVES WERE WHIPPED. Point to how miraculously your skin healed over. What is that? That is god. Understand your place in history so that you can rise up and be a voice in the darkness. For as long as you hide inside the crypt of your eternal shame, you cannot take the hand of any child soldier and say to them "you are forgiven. you can lay down your weapons and we will treat you from here on out as god intended you to be treated from the day you were born. i will take my knowledge of my own experience of being a child unable to escape the cruel army into which i, too, was conscripted, to tell you that this happens. it's okay, child."
We don't heal the world by throwing anyone away, at all. For as much sin as you have committed, for as weak as you have known yourself to be, there is the miracle of your knowledge of these things. Will you stop there? Or will you find, in all your righteous and rightful rage, in the confusion between what you did out of ignorance and what anyone else did out of ignorance, the most truly beautiful thing in the world? That your own heart and knowledge continue to beat and struggle with all of this meaning? What has died in you? In anyone?
Fight against the dying of the light, all soldiers. Breathe in all of the suffering in the world that YOU understand by the experience of your own days on earth and breathe out eternal peace, deep compassion for even the perpetrators of the most heinous crimes. For I will not take my place in darkness. I am not ashamed of what I have been. I have walked on this earth and comprehended by my heart and mind. I have apprehended my own turning away, and that apprehension was terrible, and that apprehension filled me with the holy spirit.
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Pass me that lovely little gun
My dear, my darting one
The cleaners are coming, one by one
You don't even want to let them start
They are knocking now upon your door
They measure the room, they know the score
They're mopping up the butcher's floor
Of your broken little hearts
O children
Forgive us now for what we've done
It started out as a bit of fun
Here, take these before we run away
The keys to the gulag
O children
Lift up your voice, lift up your voice
Children
Rejoice, rejoice
Here comes Frank and poor old Jim
They're gathering round with all my friends
We're older now, the light is dim
And you are only just beginning
O children
We have the answer to all your fears
It's short, it's simple, it's crystal dear
It's round about, it's somewhere here
Lost amongst our winnings
O children
Lift up your voice, lift up your voice
Children
Rejoice, rejoice
The cleaners have done their job on you
They're hip to it, man, they're in the groove
They've hosed you down, you're good as new
They're lining up to inspect you
O children
Poor old Jim's white as a ghost
He's found the answer that was lost
We're all weeping now, weeping because
There ain't nothing we can do to protect you
O children
Lift up your voice, lift up your voice
Children
Rejoice, rejoice
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Hey.
Don't you realize that any logical, rational and realistic investigation of the truth begins with the collection of all potentially pertinent information ?? Which often times includes many rumors and fallacies ?? I take it you don't do much critical thinkin.
I appreciate your concern and I feel the same way as far as what is required to honor the fallen.
I take offense at your allusion to the Viet Cong.
The link to Kathy's work is located at http://http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/deaths.htm.
Starry, do you really think "logical, rational and realistic investigation of the truth begins with the collection of all potentially pertinent information ?? Which often times includes many rumors and fallacies"?? Could you, Valhalla, or anyone here realistically claw through the bullshit to ever get to the "whom died how" question anything representative of an honorable accurate list of what you are calling "The Fallen"?
I challenge you to go forward with the accumulation of all the names that you can get your hands on. I'll meet you back here in 5 years time and tell you once again that your list is incomplete and full of inaccuracies. In my heart of hearts, I wish it could be done properly. The only way to do so (as aforementioned) is to cross reference a list of all teens that ever experienced the program against the social security death index. Good luck.
Whilst we all are survivors, veterans, ex-straights, or whatever, we are what some would describe as the last people on Earth that they would want honoring them. Speaking personally, this is true for me. Don't speak my name after I am gone. I don't want to be "honored" by those that used to humiliate, restrain, and belittle me (and continue to passively do so here) during the darkest chapter of my life. Construct your list, shove it up your ass, but don't include me on it. Speaking candidly, I know several from my program that have committed suicide. I know their families and the situations surrounding their deaths. I know how those families would feel about this and I challenge you to come up with a family that feels contrary. Why else would I speak so passionately about such a thing. It's about honor, plain and simple. There is no honor in the half assed recognition of the tip of the iceberg based on information that is rumored to be true and is questionable at best.
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You say... "Why else would I speak so passionately about such a thing. It's about honor, plain and simple. There is no honor in the half assed recognition of the tip of the iceberg based on information that is rumored to be true and is questionable at best."
What makes you an expert on this issue? Honoring dead people who were victims of it by victims of it surely is very honorable. If there's scores of survivors of it who "pay their respects" to those who are gone forever, then why give them a bunch of shit for actually DOING something about it? :idea: Stop acting like a coward and do something "honorable", otherwise just leave us alone to remember these folks as we see fit.
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Whilst we all are survivors, veterans, ex-straights, or whatever, we are what some would describe as the last people on Earth that they would want honoring them.
Well said.
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You say... "Why else would I speak so passionately about such a thing. It's about honor, plain and simple. There is no honor in the half assed recognition of the tip of the iceberg based on information that is rumored to be true and is questionable at best."
What makes you an expert on this issue? Honoring dead people who were victims of it by victims of it surely is very honorable. If there's scores of survivors of it who "pay their respects" to those who are gone forever, then why give them a bunch of shit for actually DOING something about it? :idea: Stop acting like a coward and do something "honorable", otherwise just leave us alone to remember these folks as we see fit.
On the one hand we have those that reason, "Let's do something to commemorate the dead, even though our assessment is incomplete and inaccurate, and who cares what their families think about it... ::noway::
..and then we have those who are not crazy about the idea of a premature outcome that would inevitably result here by uindertaking this endeavor unprofessionally. Their caution show the proper honor and respect, and should not be mislabeled as cowardice. ::nod::
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Their caution show*
*shows
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On the one hand we have those that reason, "Let's do something to commemorate the dead, even though our assessment is incomplete and inaccurate, and who cares what their families think about it... ::noway::
And more importantly, the anon makes a good point that they personally wouldn't like their name mentioned by the people who used to "used to humiliate, restrain, and belittle" them. Even if it wasn't the exact same people, I understand this person's reasoning about it. They're just speaking their mind here, and if you are so sure about the ~veracity and righteousness of what you are doing it should bother you.... :roll:
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it should* bother you....
*shouldn't :smokin:
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What makes you an expert on this issue? Honoring dead people who were victims of it by victims of it surely is very honorable. If there's scores of survivors of it who "pay their respects" to those who are gone forever, then why give them a bunch of shit for actually DOING something about it? :idea: Stop acting like a coward and do something "honorable", otherwise just leave us alone to remember these folks as we see fit.
An expert on the issue? Who is claiming expertise on such a subject? I am saying that I have subjectively attempted the futile attempt that you now seek to accomplish. I am not giving anyone shit about anything aside to say that I see it as the epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data.
You call me a "coward"? Go fuck yourself, ace. From my side of the street, I am speaking a voice for the few that I personally knew and continue to remember, from before, during, and after the program. I am quite certain the few I have in mind would not wish to be specifically associated with this endeavor. I am certain their families would feel the same.
The thought of having a memorial is a noble and commendable thought. My only stance from the start has been that it is a greater honor to those now deceased to be recognized as a collective, rather than to specifically recognize a minute fraction based upon secondhand and unreliable information.
You remember your people your way, and I'll remember mine in my way. I agree to disagree. I won't be in attendance (or maybe I will). It is silly for me to banter back and fourth on a such a subject after I have tried my best to be articulate and clear in stating my perspective.
In closing, I hope there are others out there that agree with the notion that it is the epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by specifically ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data.
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Look, we just want to have a simple get together of survivors and sympathetic supporters who feel the need to acknowledge the grief and the loss of the people we knew and shared a struggle with. People who were our friends and brothers. We are not perfect... Far from it,... I reckon. We are doing what we can and what we feel is right. I am also against reading out names of the fallen without verification.(I will say though that most war memorials are pro'ly incomplete to one degree or another and have their share of MIAs too, where the information cannot be verified) Anyway I'm glad we're discussin this.
I've told the story on here and I'm sure it's been read about how I learned of my friends death, who was a teacher of great lessons to me. How I was told of his death and then left alone in the middle of group. I couldn't tell anyone how I felt. He was a true leader to me. A great loss.
I've told the story of another friends death...
I've told so many fucked up stories on here...
I am takin in what you're sayin friend. Like I said before, how 'bout we don't read any names but just allow people to speak freely. Like I knew Steve and Glenn and Jim and Dale all pretty well and of course there are others who aren't quite dead but fare only so well. It's not even just about the dead. It's about all the loss; of time and direction and relationships too. My world was taken away from me and I've never been the same. They sowed confusion into my young mind. Crippled my srtrength when I was just about to need it most. Took from me everything that I was and left me without my senses. I know survivors who live like ghosts. $tr8 was a monstrous demon that ate my friends. Look here. You can still see the marks on me...
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And I hope you do come, even if you just want to hang back or whatever. I would like to meet you, even though you think I'm a Viet-cong Bozo of some sort.
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I would like to meet you, even though you think I'm a Viet-cong Bozo of some sort.
I don't think you are anything of the sort, Starry. You are one that I tend to lend an ear to as you do likewise with me.
I do believe that "the list" will live on long past the memorial and questionable data will no doubt continue to be compiled and treated as factual information by the casual reader....I remember what it was like when I first stumbled across information as a newbie years ago.
If so, it would be nice if the powers that be at least acknowledge that the list is compiled from possible/probable less than accurate data which is gleaned for the most part from second hand information. The list will obviously never be complete nor accurate and will always will be an evolving work in progress that fails to acknowledge thousands. If the casual reader is aware of this, all is well. I just think it's bad practice to set off on an insurmountable task that misrepresents the breadth and depth of the vast numbers of those no longer with us. I happen to think a list is counterproductive as it dishonors many more than it honors.
I think the compilation of a centralized listing of the dead from $tr8s is much different than a few program vets gathering and recognizing old friends. Possibly, this is where things got hazy for me. For the aforementioned, you have my apology.
Since I have been there before, have regrets, and have since learned that my idealistic venture was as futile as counting the grains of sand on Neptune, I mistakingly thought I was the candidate to open my big mouth on the issue. My apologies for possibly stepping in where I should not have. It is no longer my project and there will likely be dozens that attempt similiar lists in the future. I am no one to police or even to share my opinion on such activity only because in my mind "I have been there and done that". This is where I have strayed and am wrong. My desire to honor ALL those that have passed was greater than the fact that I know better to speak up here.
In closing , just know that if I hadn't made the mistakes I have in the past, I wouldn't be so passionate about this very issue. It struck a nerve and this thread got my kneejerk reaction.
You remember yours, I'll remember mine, and NO ONE WILL BE FORGOTTEN.
Starry, you are cool as they come and I have never read a post of yours (and yup, I've read 'em all, I've been here from the very beginning) that I had contention with. Stay real.
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Whoa. You knock me back...
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...it's dark out. I'm drinkin my yuengling lagers...You're not wrong. You have many good things to say(write, really). Thankyou for the compliment. I appreciate all the perspective you've given me, concerning the list and the memorial itself. I'm glad you spoke up.
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I'll be rememberin yours as I'm rememberin mine.
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You remember yours, I'll remember mine, and NO ONE WILL BE FORGOTTEN.
Got it!
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I laugh to consider it bu'... :rofl: :rofl: ... le's keep talkin...I mean, aint tryin' to be weird or nothin. Just sayin. 'Ont jjhoo speak your peace...all respect intended... ::armed::
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Whoa. Sorry. I guess I come across pretty strange sometimes. Thanks for waitin on me to figure that out. Thank you.
My basic take is that $tr8 was fucked and all Authority is fucvked beyond hell!!!!!!
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I have apprehended my own turning away, and that apprehension was terrible, and that apprehension filled me with ...
Ok, I'm entirely with ya thus far. In fact, I'm about awed. You're in rare form tonight. No sarcasm at all here. But then...
...the holy spirit.
Aw, c'mon, man! Not this! Please not an invisible friend! No! Move away from the light! Come back to us! Feel his noodley appendages!
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well...I'll tell you wha-at. I aint from the south, but I respect that kind-a fight. And I say fuck 'em all.
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No thing ever stated has been stated acurately or without some prejudice and inacuracy. Every history comes in a variety of versions and colors. To name a thing is to damn it. All that's true enough and valid as anything.
But this is also true; it takes a thousand voices to tell just one story. Never mind whether the cause of someone's passing was directly or indirectly or not at all attributable to the Program. They're just as gone and now that we're all hitting a point in life when we're willing and able to reflect on the whole thing as seasoned adults, it sure as hell would be nice to be able to get their take on it. I miss them, even the ones I didn't know.
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Wow, this has been an interesting discussion with several interesting and admirable viewpoints put forth from all sides, in between a bit of typical Fornits sniping.
First of all, I think we can all agree that it is appropriate for us as survivors of Straight to have a memorial for the dead and wounded victims. We are the only people in the world who know what it was like to be in Straight, others, though sympathetic, have no real understanding of the nature of the mindfuck. I think that this memorial is appropriate and honorable.
Also, I agree with what the anon said about many folks who may not want to have their names spoken by someone who could have been a potential abuser. I can see that point; hell, when I was in Straight, most of you, with very few exceptions, were the enemy. There are people I still hold grudges against, grudges I am willing to set aside for the purpose of this memorial. I plan on speaking at the memorial, but do not plan on mentioning anyone by name, for the reasons anon has articulated, but I do think it is entirely appropriate for someone who was a friend of the deceased to make mention of them. Another reason I will not be mentioning anyone specifically is because of the many unknowns involved, and I do not want to lessen the tragedy of someone's death through omitting them. That is why I personally will not be mentioning anyone by name, but will be more than willing to listen to a friend or family member who wishes to memorialize a fallen friend or relative, by name, or anonymously if they so choose.
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How dare you pull dead people into your worship of your own macabre obsessions. DISRESPECTFUL.
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I have apprehended my own turning away, and that apprehension was terrible, and that apprehension filled me with ...
Ok, I'm entirely with ya thus far. In fact, I'm about awed. You're in rare form tonight. No sarcasm at all here. But then...
...the holy spirit.
Aw, c'mon, man! Not this! Please not an invisible friend! No! Move away from the light! Come back to us! Feel his noodley appendages!
Ginger, I think you are confused. I think the holy spirit is what kicks you to find the truth. I think you operate on that every single day. I think you operate on that every time you understand and speak socratically to persons still in the mental grip of the brainwash. I think you get it, very much, you don't hold the hate, you get it that people really could be that brainwashed to participate in shit.
When people make something bigger and better out of a bad situation, that's the holy spirit. Take the civil rights movement, for example. People didn't just march to get some better laws passed, they marched to express a new spirit they had found, which overflowed once Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat. They were saying more than just "people get to sit anywhere and eat anywhere and go to school anywhere equally". They were standing up to the thing that was keeping them down, not only that, but standing up together, and not just black people, they ignited a big fire. I mean, they really did. The civil rights movement had an impact on other movements for justice, all over the world. That, mama-san, is the holy spirit.
Don't be so scared, I know it sounds "Christian", but no religion can expropriate this thing.
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Not that it is important in any way, shape, or form...but I wanted to clarify that I, the anonymous dude opposed to composing a centralized list of the dead, is a different anonymous than he/she discussing the Holy Spirit.
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B.S. ya fuckin liar. I saw you when I looked in the mirror this morning.
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B.S. ya fuckin liar. I saw you when I looked in the mirror this morning.
All you saw in the mirror this morning, my friend, was your own mother and fathers' biggest mistake.
:evil: :flame: :evil:
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B.S. ya fuckin liar. I saw you when I looked in the mirror this morning.
All you saw in the mirror this morning, my friend, was your own mother and fathers' biggest mistake.
:evil: :flame: :evil:
Oh shut up, all of you, or I am going to confiscate our mirror.
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At this point, I'm wondering if you're just trying to stir the pot. Your redundency has certainly hit home, as I have read all that you've written. I find what you say extremely unhelpful. You say a lot, but your words are empty. You don't want to help us, so why are you even bothering to post here?
'Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post'. WTF??? I don't need to ask Wes anything. Where did that even come from? This has nothing to do with him. It has everything to do with those who are dead...and we want to simly remember them.
If you have anything further to say, please feel free to PM me and use your real identiy. Otherwise, I will continue to think of you as someone simply trying to stir the pot.
I take my pot smoked...not stirred. What would possibly motivate me to "stir the pot" with you V.? What could I possibly have to gain by simply sharing an objective observation?
"Extremely unhelpful...empty words...don't want to help"? Don't confuse me as some sort of adversary because I am opposed to your agenda. My primary and only concern is for those that have passed. It's about something that I call honor, Valhalla. I see it as the epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data. Could my perspective be any more clear on the matter? I am not trying to stir up anything.
My invitation to ask Wes was because he, as I, have also attempted the same list in which you are working on, though for different reasons. Both lists were started with the best of intentions. My invitation was also to ask surviving family members to see what they think about their loved ones being on a list of the deceased put together by former STRAIGHT teens. If I were dead, my mother would promptly tell you to go shit in your hat.
Mrs. Moya has a respectable list on her website of deceased teens from contemporary treatment facilities. This is verifiable data as it is in current media and can be substantiated unlike any attempts to compile any such listing from the gulags of 20 years ago.
I won't PM you Valhalla, I don't PM anyone. This is my real identity. I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference if I log in with my regular user name, some fictitious one, or use my actual name-date of birth-and social security number. It's not ME that matters, it's the words I speak, anonymously or not.
2ndly, the anon guest who advises us does so with those we want to honor in mind. I respect that. (drinkin my wine)
Thanks, Starry. I wish I could buy you a bottle for recognizing the true nature of my words.
If I came across harsh, I appologize. There have been too many trying to cause a bit of bother on this thread. I have no agenda. I have simply been trying to put together a list of the fallen.
My attempt at this list was in no way a 'half ass job'. I know that it is no where near complete and never will be. I know that much is hearsay. I know that many of those on the list would probably not want to have their names spoken by someone who was there. It has been extremely difficult to compile this list, in many ways. I have read, to my knowledge, all the lists ever written, by both Mrs. Moya, Wes and others. I have given it my best shot with this list. We have a time constraint here for the Memorial and I do not have the resources at my disposal to check the list as you proposed. I wish I could. I would like it to be as complete and accurate as possible. I do not want to leave anyone out.
I hear what you are saying. I know what you are saying. And I think the attempt here is honorable.
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In closing, I hope there are others out there that agree with the notion that it is the epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by specifically ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data.
Well, I think our intentions here are very honorable. I guess that is where you and I will disagree.
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Please tell me so that I can understand what the problem is with having someone from straight read your name from a list of those that have passed??? Seriously...if not someone who was also there and KNOWS what it was like...then who? A group of strangers?
I think that the people that have passed would probably be glad to be remembered.. so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
I also don't understand why it's such an issue that the list be "complete." Hell, the day before the memorial any one of us could die and our name wouldn't be on the list...would that be dishonoring to that person? Get a grip.
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Please tell me so that I can understand what the problem is with having someone from straight read your name from a list of those that have passed??? Seriously...if not someone who was also there and KNOWS what it was like...then who? A group of strangers?
I think that the people that have passed would probably be glad to be remembered.. so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
I also don't understand why it's such an issue that the list be "complete." Hell, the day before the memorial any one of us could die and our name wouldn't be on the list...would that be dishonoring to that person? Get a grip.
Thank you. Very well said!
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B.S. ya fuckin liar. I saw you when I looked in the mirror this morning.
All you saw in the mirror this morning, my friend, was your own mother and fathers' biggest mistake.
:evil: :flame: :evil:
Oh shut up, all of you, or I am going to confiscate our mirror.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Anon speaking of the holy spirit, thanks for that high praise. I shit you not, it brought tears to my eyes and that's no small feat. I was really just sort of being a smart ass, though. Yeah, I get ya. Real well. I dare not name it, though, lest it be damned.
Rtp, I think you've got the perfect solution. In the privacy of my own mind and heart, I'll be mourning all those other victims of this war. No need to vocalize it, is there?
Man, you guys rock! You just have NO idea how much I need to feel this kind of at home right now. Thank you all so much. I'm just trying to bring myself to grips w/ the harsh reality that I probably can't make the trip financially. I'm in the middle of moving and the business is in trouble. That bums me out more than words can tell. Any techs out there willing to take on this beast? Or donate some frequent flyer miles so I can run away and hide out back in the hell state in a couple of weeks?
Anyway, if I'm not there in body I'll surely be there in spirit.
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Well, I don't know if I said it earlier or not, but at the Springfield memorial we will have the list available and on hand and folks are free to add to it, to comment on it, to mark names as whatever you want to do but we wont be reading it out loud...
The memorial will be the begining of gathering signatures for the letter of request and it could be a formal begining for the the list of the fallen, who is ever going to really nail it all down anyway, it will be an on-going project...
I'd be happy to see to it that you receive the monthly bodycount statistics from SIBS if you'd like. :rofl:
Seriously, due to the plethora of intakes over the past several months, we've had to resort to a more zero-tolerance approach lately! I estimate that we end up having to kill at least 3-4 druggies a month, and that's considered a good month. Anyway, I'll send them to you so you can add their names. But NEVER FORGET that their blood was shed for a cause -- the cause of GETTING STRAIGHT.
Put THAT in your pipe and smoke it. :rofl:
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Well, I don't know if I said it earlier or not, but at the Springfield memorial we will have the list available and on hand and folks are free to add to it, to comment on it, to mark names as whatever you want to do but we wont be reading it out loud...
The memorial will be the begining of gathering signatures for the letter of request and it could be a formal begining for the the list of the fallen, who is ever going to really nail it all down anyway, it will be an on-going project...
Sounds good to me!
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formal begining for the the list of the fallen
"The Fallen"? Dr. Fucktard's "Bodycount" is much more accurate, or maybe "The incomplete bodycount of those rumored to be dead compiled by a 'newcomer' to the bbs for no real reason aside to possibly make them feel productive as if they are contributing to something in some morbidly perverse way". OK, Valhalla, maybe that was busting your chops alittle too harshly, but I don't like some of your reactions to what I have stated previously, either.
I think that the people that have passed would probably be glad to be remembered.. so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
I also don't understand why it's such an issue that the list be "complete."
You must not know family members of some of the deceased and how they feel about straight and about people like you (and me).
The issue with the list being complete has been pounded again and again in this thread. Still don't understand? Whew, I'll summarize it again for you. It is not so much the names being read by those that remember the deceased at any memorial that is an issue at this time. The issue is this "list" of the "fallen" may live on and continue to grow past the pending memorials. The initiation of such a futile effort is offensively dishonorable to those no longer with us as it is attempting to capture data that is literally impossible to capture. The data that has been/will be compiled is based largely on second hand/rumored information.
So basically:
1.) the information documented is questionable at best and
2.) the information documented is statistically only representative of a small fraction of those that have actually passed away.
and just for the fuck of it...
3.) Many of the deceased and families of the deceased would not want to be the subject of contemporary straight research projects.
To summarize simply, most data added to the list is bullshit hearsay and furthermore it includes (discludes?) the omission of thousands that SHOULD be on the list if the research was approached correctly (as all bonafied research should be, if you can't do it right, what is the purpose?).
I have stated my opinion, it won't change, there is a right way to go about this and a wrong way. Listening to survivors, veterans, ex-$tr8s (or whatever) say "Oh I heard Timmy died in a car accident" is not the "right way" of conducting any sort of research resulting in adding Timmy's name to any "list of the fallen".
You remember yours, I'll remember mine.
I have posted my last post in the thread, go ahead---tear my ass up.
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Esse Quam Videri. Right on.
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Well.... if that really was your last post, which I doubt, than what I have to say won't really matter to you, but just for grins I'll tell you anyway.
As a matter of fact I know several family members of some of the deceased, and oddly enough, they don't share your opinion. I know that must be hard for you to believe though since you seem to think that everything you write is the absolute truth.
I'm not sure why this whole thing has struck such a nerve with you ( and I don't really care) but I would like to offer a suggestion that might help you with your issues....don't attend. Simple really. If this really bothers you so much, there is the solution!
Oh yeah...and one final thought...get over yourself already! You have got waaay to much time on your hands to be devoting so much negative energy to something like this. Get a grip.
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Esse Quam Videri. Right on.
Sorry, that was me. And I agree with this 100%:
I have stated my opinion, it won't change, there is a right way to go about this and a wrong way. Listening to survivors, veterans, ex-$tr8s (or whatever) say "Oh I heard Timmy died in a car accident" is not the "right way" of conducting any sort of research resulting in adding Timmy's name to any "list of the fallen".
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Good for you then!
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Yes, good for me. :roll:
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Well.... if that really was your last post, which I doubt, than what I have to say won't really matter to you, but just for grins I'll tell you anyway.
As a matter of fact I know several family members of some of the deceased, and oddly enough, they don't share your opinion. I know that must be hard for you to believe though since you seem to think that everything you write is the absolute truth.
I'm not sure why this whole thing has struck such a nerve with you ( and I don't really care) but I would like to offer a suggestion that might help you with your issues....don't attend. Simple really. If this really bothers you so much, there is the solution!
Oh yeah...and one final thought...get over yourself already! You have got waaay to much time on your hands to be devoting so much negative energy to something like this. Get a grip.
I should shut up, but what the fuck, you make this fun. In my defense, I have stated time and time again why this strikes a nerve with me, go back and reread my previous posts. If you really know several family members of the deceased and they share your perspective and not mine, great! As this thread reflects, different people have different opinions about this whole thing. My statements are MY opinion on the matter. "Time on my hands, negative energy"? I am simply typing words on my keyboard as are you, I am not building nuclear bombs in the basement for crying out loud. I have a grip, a grip on the realistic fact that this is a futile attempt. Again, for me--whether I attend or not, this has nothing to do with reading names at a memorial. It has to do with the notion that someone thinks they could actually architect some centralized, factual list of deceased teens from straight. Which is indeed a noble thought, but with improper direction.
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Ah...as I said..I knew that would not be your last post. I bet you're one of those people who takes forever to say something simple, just so you can hear yourself talk....
I've read your posts and know that you attempted to put together your own list and that it turned into a difficult and frustrating experience for you, I get that. What I don't get is why, after you posted your opinion, you continued to present it as the absolute truth.
You may see all this as a futile attempt with improper direction, but not everyone else feels that way, something you don't seem to have any respect for.
I have no problem what so ever with your opinion or your right to state it.
What I do have a problem with is your pompous and condescending manner in which you write it. Oh and please....don't tell me that's the first time you've been told that, cause my money is on the fact that it's just part of your personality!
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Each has their way. We are only people. We all want to be free.
Let's not try to convince each other of too much...
Let's kill the program. Give up coercion and intimidation.
We are the Tao
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I've read your posts and know that you attempted to put together your own list and that it turned into a difficult and frustrating experience for you, I get that. What I don't get is why, after you posted your opinion, you continued to present it as the absolute truth.
You may see all this as a futile attempt with improper direction, but not everyone else feels that way, something you don't seem to have any respect for.
I have no problem what so ever with your opinion or your right to state it.
What I do have a problem with is your pompous and condescending manner in which you write it. Oh and please....don't tell me that's the first time you've been told that, cause my money is on the fact that it's just part of your personality!
How is "go fuck yourself" for pompous and condescending? Are we judging perceived personalities here or talking about deceased teens? The very sentence "What I do have a problem with is your pompous and condescending manner in which you write it" is extremely pompous and condescending. This isn't group, buddy.
My attempt at the list did not become difficult, nor frustrating in the least. Reread the posts. The reason I stopped the project is that it was simply not possible to compile such a list unless there is a cross reference a list of all teens from all programs with the social security death index. There is no other pragmatic way to go about this sort of research project. I've been there. No "absolute truth" just facts, convince me differently. How would you even begin to accomplish such a task with any degree of accuracy?
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How would you even begin to accomplish such a task with any degree of accuracy?
My bad, I forgot that "accuracy" is of no relavance to this project.
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How would you even begin to accomplish such a task with any degree of accuracy?
My bad, I forgot that "accuracy" is of no relavance to this project.
:rofl: :rofl:
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How would you even begin to accomplish such a task with any degree of accuracy?
My bad, I forgot that "accuracy" is of no relavance to this project.
:rofl: :rofl:
Someone has their panties in a wad :rofl:
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formal begining for the the list of the fallen
"The Fallen"? Dr. Fucktard's "Bodycount" is much more accurate, or maybe "The incomplete bodycount of those rumored to be dead compiled by a 'newcomer' to the bbs for no real reason aside to possibly make them feel productive as if they are contributing to something in some morbidly perverse way". OK, Valhalla, maybe that was busting your chops alittle too harshly, but I don't like some of your reactions to what I have stated previously, either.
Yeah...ok, so it was harsh. I was harsh to you, too. We obviously disagree on some things here. And don't feel the need to reiterate all that you've said again...please. I got it the first time around. I respect your view on this. And I hope that you will, somehow, respect mine...and my pathetic attempt to 'try' and compile a list of those to be remembered. And just so you know, I am not into 'morbid perversity'...compiling this list (as it is now) was damn hard and really took it out of me in many ways.
Let's not repeat ourselves here anymore...okay?
I hope you DO come to one of the Memorials...just to pay your repsects, to those YOU remember, with us. I'll be at the VA one...it would be kinda nice, in a way, to finally meet the one who gave me such a hard time about all of this, but at an event and in a setting which were conducive to us both and our ideas of the ultimate purpose for this list.
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Here a list, there a list, everywhere a list list. Some are more meaningful than others. The list in question here will mean whatever the hell it means to whoever the hell it does, however and whenever it pleases. Don't take it out on the list :exclaim: WTF :question: It isn't the list's fault survivors of straight inc can't get along with each other on a message board created by straight inc survivors! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Goddamn!! Is this fucking list THAT goddamn important? I thought this was supposed to be an informal memorial where people just felt free to pay their respects however they fucking choose to. Now I'm hearing that someone is asking for 'firm RSVPs'?? Why? Why does it matter? Whoever shows up shows up. Whoever doesn't, doesn't. Why the need (and seemingly desperate need) for this list? Sorry folks, I just don't see the importance and urgency of this list. It's not going to be factual or correct. Just things we've all heard with some very few exceptions. Why does this have to be so fucking complicated? Show up or don't. Pay your respects in whatever way you choose or don't. How complicated is that? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Goddamn!! Is this fucking list THAT goddamn important? I thought this was supposed to be an informal memorial where people just felt free to pay their respects however they fucking choose to. Now I'm hearing that someone is asking for 'firm RSVPs'?? Why? Why does it matter? Whoever shows up shows up. Whoever doesn't, doesn't. Why the need (and seemingly desperate need) for this list? Sorry folks, I just don't see the importance and urgency of this list. It's not going to be factual or correct. Just things we've all heard with some very few exceptions. Why does this have to be so fucking complicated? Show up or don't. Pay your respects in whatever way you choose or don't. How complicated is that? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Calm down, no need to get excited. I'll try to answer your questions in order. I think DOC SLOW was wanting RSVPs for the Atlanta memorial because he is driving from another state and doesn't want to make the trip just to show up at the site alone. IT's as sinister as that.
The list, the list---what can I say about the list that hasn't already been said, other than a lot of folks, not everyone, thought it would be a good idea if we could get a complete list of the deceased. Personally, I don't think it matters, but everyone is entitiled to their own opinion, etc. I think there was some spirited disagreement, but that is to be expected, and is an indication of how emotionally chrged this event has become for many of us, which is understandable, given the nature of the event--this is a memorial service for departed friends and loved ones whose demise may have been hastened or precipitated by the abuses they suffered in Straight, Inc. A little difference of opinion, which seems to have been accepted, if not resolved, is of no real consequence in the face of the bond which brings us together in the first place. Show me any gathering of three or more individuals that doesn't involve some differences in opinion and vocal disagreement, and I'll show you a mind-control cult.
Like you said, this is a chance for us to come together and pay our respects as we choose. No one is being forced or coerced into attending, but I think it is a good opportunity to remember the dead and wounded, and to start to heal some wounds.
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Goddamn!! Is this fucking list THAT goddamn important? I thought this was supposed to be an informal memorial where people just felt free to pay their respects however they fucking choose to. Now I'm hearing that someone is asking for 'firm RSVPs'?? Why? Why does it matter? Whoever shows up shows up. Whoever doesn't, doesn't. Why the need (and seemingly desperate need) for this list? Sorry folks, I just don't see the importance and urgency of this list. It's not going to be factual or correct. Just things we've all heard with some very few exceptions. Why does this have to be so fucking complicated? Show up or don't. Pay your respects in whatever way you choose or don't. How complicated is that? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Calm down, no need to get excited.
I'm not excited, more frustrated. I've been sitting back watching some of this play out and it just seems to be waaaaayyyyyyy more complicated than it should be. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
I'll try to answer your questions in order. I think DOC SLOW was wanting RSVPs for the Atlanta memorial because he is driving from another state and doesn't want to make the trip just to show up at the site alone. IT's as sinister as that.
I wasn't trying to imply that there was anything sinister about it, although given circumstances it's not unrealistic, I was just wondering why it was so important. If Doc is going there to pay his respects what does it matter if anyone else is there?
The list, the list---what can I say about the list that hasn't already been said, other than a lot of folks, not everyone, thought it would be a good idea if we could get a complete list of the deceased. Personally, I don't think it matters, but everyone is entitiled to their own opinion, etc. I think there was some spirited disagreement, but that is to be expected, and is an indication of how emotionally chrged this event has become for many of us, which is understandable, given the nature of the event--this is a memorial service for departed friends and loved ones whose demise may have been hastened or precipitated by the abuses they suffered in Straight, Inc. A little difference of opinion, which seems to have been accepted, if not resolved, is of no real consequence in the face of the bond which brings us together in the first place. Show me any gathering of three or more individuals that doesn't involve some differences in opinion and vocal disagreement, and I'll show you a mind-control cult.
I think what I highlighted is the most salient point you made. Does it really matter that much for everyone to be so upset about it???
Like you said, this is a chance for us to come together and pay our respects as we choose. No one is being forced or coerced into attending, but I think it is a good opportunity to remember the dead and wounded, and to start to heal some wounds.
Absolutely, but in our own way and our own time. Again, this has gotten way more complicated than it should be.
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[Like you said, this is a chance for us to come together and pay our respects as we choose. No one is being forced or coerced into attending, but I think it is a good opportunity to remember the dead and wounded, and to start to heal some wounds.
Well of course not silly!!!!!!! Nobody is being forced to attend. There just seems to be a lot of parameters and rules about this and I'm just not understanding that. At all.
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Parameters and rules? Where? From what I can tell, it seems to be a pretty wide open venue for us to mourn or otherwise pay our respects, collectively and individually. I don't see any parameters other than the place, date and time. From what I understand, anyone who wishes to speak will be given an opportunity to do so. I don't think there are any "rules or regulations" other than mutual respect and courtesy between attendees.
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Nobody is being forced to attend.
No, but unfortunately those who attend will be forced to listen to Fr. Cassian spouting program dogma through his bullhorn from across the street.....
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:rofl: His threats are all empty... His authority is false. I'm still waitin' to hear him read excerpts from "Gone Way Down"...
pirate out. ::cheers::
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:rofl: His threats are all empty... His authority is false. I'm still waitin' to hear him read excerpts from "Gone Way Down"...
pirate out. ::cheers::
This time around, my focus will be on The Serenity Prayer. ::dove::
But don't think that you druggies are going to leave without getting a BLOODY EARFUL of the Seven Steps before all is said and done! ::bangin::
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Well, since the Florida people will be somewhat close to your house Virgil, some of us just may stop by and share some feelings with you.
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I'll be out and about that day..
Love ya! :wave:
-Virgil Miller Newton
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That's fine too. We've gotten to know a few of your neighbors quite well and they really don't like you. We can work on expanding that and informing more of them of what a sadistic fuck they live next to. :wave:
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Parameters and rules? Where? From what I can tell, it seems to be a pretty wide open venue for us to mourn or otherwise pay our respects, collectively and individually. I don't see any parameters other than the place, date and time. From what I understand, anyone who wishes to speak will be given an opportunity to do so. I don't think there are any "rules or regulations" other than mutual respect and courtesy between attendees.
People wanting it held at the bldg. then others freaking out about that. People inviting press, others freaking out about that. People turning it into their personal 'gig', people freaking about that. People wanting "firm RSVPs" because they don't want to be there alone. Why not? If the purpose is a memorial why does it matter who does or doesn't show?
It ain't that fucking complicated. Pick a place......ANY place. Show up. Speak, don't speak. I personally will leave immediately if press shows up though.
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That's fine too. We've gotten to know a few of your neighbors quite well and they really don't like you. We can work on expanding that and informing more of them of what a sadistic fuck they live next to. :wave:
Smithers, release the hounds!
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I personally will leave immediately if press shows up though.
why
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Because for me this is a private thing. I have no interest in participating in anything that could be construed as a protest or anything like it, for this at least. This is a memorial and IMO press being there would cheapen the whole idea behind it.
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Parameters and rules? Where? From what I can tell, it seems to be a pretty wide open venue for us to mourn or otherwise pay our respects, collectively and individually. I don't see any parameters other than the place, date and time. From what I understand, anyone who wishes to speak will be given an opportunity to do so. I don't think there are any "rules or regulations" other than mutual respect and courtesy between attendees.
People wanting it held at the bldg. then others freaking out about that. People inviting press, others freaking out about that. People turning it into their personal 'gig', people freaking about that. People wanting "firm RSVPs" because they don't want to be there alone. Why not? If the purpose is a memorial why does it matter who does or doesn't show?
It ain't that fucking complicated. Pick a place......ANY place. Show up. Speak, don't speak. I personally will leave immediately if press shows up though.
Aren't you tired of writing yet?????
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Someone asked a question so I answered. Aren't you tired of being an asshole yet?
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Someone asked a question so I answered. Aren't you tired of being an asshole yet?
Not that it is important in any way, shape, or form...but I wanted to clarify that I, the asshole opposed to composing a centralized list of the dead, is a different asshole than he/she discussing the currently stirring the pot.
I say this only to possibly make Valhalla and Starry smile after causing so much shit last week.
Peace.
:D
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Actually, this is not a "newsworthy" event, so even if media types were invited, they wouldn't show.
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I personally will leave immediately if press shows up though.
why
why not
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I personally will leave immediately if press shows up though.
why
why not
okay
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I say this only to possibly make Valhalla and Starry smile after causing so much shit last week.
Peace.
:D
I take it you've accepted my cease-fire agreement and we have possibly achieved an actual truce here?
Now for THAT, I would smile. :D
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HOW CAN THERE BE A CEASE FIRE FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS JUST PEOPLE TALKING ON THE INTERNET. IF PEOPLE CAN'T TAKE SOMEONE'S OPINION ON A THING, MAYBE THEY THEMSELVES SHOULD EXIT THE DISCUSSION INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE SOMEONE WITH AN OPINION MUST BE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING BAD JUST BY SAYING IT. IF THAT PERSON ACTUALLY STARTED MAKING A LIST OF PEOPLE WHO DIED WHO HAD BEEN IN STRAIGHT, WHY IS IT SO BAD FOR THEM TO SAY THAT, IF THAT IS WHAT THEY DID AND THEN BECAUSE OF THAT THEY REALIZED SOMETHING, WHY WAS IT EVER A PROBLEM FOR THEM TO COME HERE AND SAY IT?
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, DID ANYONE WITH ANY KIND OF LIST EVER CROSS CHECK IT WITH SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH RECORDS?
I ALSO SAY, IF FAMILIES OF SUICIDES DO NOT WANT THEIR CHILD'S NAME PUT ON ANY LIST, THEY ARE STILL COMPLICIT IN THE CRIME THAT KILLED THEIR CHILD. FROM CONVERSATIONS WITH STRAIGHT SURVIVORS, STRAIGHT WAS A CONTINUATION OF THE CHILD ABUSE THEY WERE ALREADY GETTING AT HOME. EVEN THE SUBTLE CHILD ABUSE OF MAKING YOUR CHILD CRAZY BY NOT BELIEVING WHAT THEY SAY, OR FORCING YOUR CHILD INTO A TERRIBLE HORRIFYING ABUSIVE SITUATION IN WHICH CHILDREN ARE BEING TORTURED ON THE BARE FLOOR EVERY SINGLE DAY. I SAY, IT IS TIME FOR PARENTS OF CHILDREN WHO WERE IN STRAIGHT TO SPEAK OUT. THEY ABANDONED US IN STRAIGHT, NOT ONLY THAT, THEY GAVE STRAIGHT MONEY AND SUPPORTED IT'S CAUSE OF CHILD TORTURE. THEY ARE THEREFORE COMPLICIT IN THE CONTINUED LIFE OF STRAIGHT, THEY ARE GUILTY FOR THE CONTINUED CHILD TORTURE -- AND BY U.S. ARMY AS WELL AS UNITED NATIONS DEFINITIONS OF TORTURE, STRAIGHT IS WITHOUT QUESTION A TORTURE INSTITUTION.
TAKE OFF YOUR BLINDFOLDS, USA, BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RECRIMINATION. I AM TALKING ABOUT REPENTANCE AND CLEAR VISION OF A NEW WAY BY FACING THE TRUTH OF HISTORY.
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Intense!
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I ALSO SAY, IF FAMILIES OF SUICIDES DO NOT WANT THEIR CHILD'S NAME PUT ON ANY LIST, THEY ARE STILL COMPLICIT IN THE CRIME THAT KILLED THEIR CHILD.
So let me ask, are you saying that if I were deceased and you called my mother to ask her about my death and she told you to shit in your hat (which she would), she would be guilty of continuing to engage in child abuse by the denial of your request for information?
While I respect your opinion, I definitely feel differently. Frankly, I think that the program had way too much information about my life in the first place and that if anyone from straight came nosing around in my family business at this point in my life, my family obligation (as loving and caring folks) would be to kindly shoot the person in the face. ::unhappy:: ::smokingun::
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, DID ANYONE WITH ANY KIND OF LIST EVER CROSS CHECK IT WITH SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH RECORDS?
Yes.
FROM CONVERSATIONS WITH STRAIGHT SURVIVORS, STRAIGHT WAS A CONTINUATION OF THE CHILD ABUSE THEY WERE ALREADY GETTING AT HOME
From conversations? Were you not in straight yourself? If not, things are a little more difficult for me to explain...
Again, while I read and respect your words, I beg to differ with your opinion. I wasn't abused by my parents, I ABUSED my parents in the worst of ways. Granted, some more intense counseling would have been nice before I was sent to the gulag, but they were desperate parents looking deperately for some sort of solution. They were sucked in hook, line, and sinker just like tens of thousands of other parents.
Also, I think there is an important distinction to make (and I am simply making the distinction, I do not have the time or energy to defend my stance on the issue and run around in circles about why I believe it makes sense). In many ways the program was indeed responsible for more deaths than we could ever really and accurately count no matter what research method is used. BUT even if the program never existed, I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks. I have had a couple of friends from the program suicide over things that had absolutely nothing to do with the program, not even in some sort of roundabout way. For instance, a mother suicided over a recent untimely death of her only child. In some way this mother thought that through her death she would once again be with the child she loved so dearly. It has nothing at all to do with straight (and she wouldn't want to be on anyone's list either, but that is another arguement).
In brief, correlation does not always imply causation.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... al_fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_implies_causation_(logical_fallacy)) for additional details on this arguement of logic.
Too much thinking, I need a smoke. ::bandit::
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In many ways the program was indeed responsible for more deaths than we could ever really and accurately count no matter what research method is used. BUT even if the program never existed, I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks. I have had a couple of friends from the program suicide over things that had absolutely nothing to do with the program, not even in some sort of roundabout way. For instance, a mother suicided over a recent untimely death of her only child. In some way this mother thought that through her death she would once again be with the child she loved so dearly. It has nothing at all to do with straight (and she wouldn't want to be on anyone's list either, but that is another arguement).
In brief, correlation does not always imply causation.
Very good point. There is no way to truly deduce what the cause was, but perhaps those that did choose suicide, for whatever reason, were somehow, impaired (by whatever reason...be that their incarceration in Straight or other problems they endured in life) to be able to look beyond their overwhelming circumstances.
I have to say that your friend who killed herself, because of her child's death, was heartbreaking to me, also as a mother.
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HOW CAN THERE BE A CEASE FIRE FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS JUST PEOPLE TALKING ON THE INTERNET. IF PEOPLE CAN'T TAKE SOMEONE'S OPINION ON A THING, MAYBE THEY THEMSELVES SHOULD EXIT THE DISCUSSION INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE SOMEONE WITH AN OPINION MUST BE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING BAD JUST BY SAYING IT. IF THAT PERSON ACTUALLY STARTED MAKING A LIST OF PEOPLE WHO DIED WHO HAD BEEN IN STRAIGHT, WHY IS IT SO BAD FOR THEM TO SAY THAT, IF THAT IS WHAT THEY DID AND THEN BECAUSE OF THAT THEY REALIZED SOMETHING, WHY WAS IT EVER A PROBLEM FOR THEM TO COME HERE AND SAY IT?
Not everyone agrees on everything all the time. That would be impossible, boring, and take away our individuality. But, at least we are able to say what we think, hope it will be respected and look to find some kind of mutual ground to stand on. And if there is no mutual ground, then leave it there with a mutual respect of differences.
Everyone should at least be able to speak their mind...
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I ALSO SAY, IF FAMILIES OF SUICIDES DO NOT WANT THEIR CHILD'S NAME PUT ON ANY LIST, THEY ARE STILL COMPLICIT IN THE CRIME THAT KILLED THEIR CHILD.
So let me ask, are you saying that if I were deceased and you called my mother to ask her about my death and she told you to shit in your hat (which she would), she would be guilty of continuing to engage in child abuse by the denial of your request for information?
THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.
While I respect your opinion, I definitely feel differently. Frankly, I think that the program had way too much information about my life in the first place and that if anyone from straight came nosing around in my family business at this point in my life, my family obligation (as loving and caring folks) would be to kindly shoot the person in the face. ::unhappy:: ::smokingun::
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, DID ANYONE WITH ANY KIND OF LIST EVER CROSS CHECK IT WITH SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH RECORDS?
Yes.
FROM CONVERSATIONS WITH STRAIGHT SURVIVORS, STRAIGHT WAS A CONTINUATION OF THE CHILD ABUSE THEY WERE ALREADY GETTING AT HOME
From conversations? Were you not in straight yourself? If not, things are a little more difficult for me to explain...
Again, while I read and respect your words, I beg to differ with your opinion. I wasn't abused by my parents, I ABUSED my parents in the worst of ways. Granted, some more intense counseling would have been nice before I was sent to the gulag, but they were desperate parents looking deperately for some sort of solution. They were sucked in hook, line, and sinker just like tens of thousands of other parents.
Also, I think there is an important distinction to make (and I am simply making the distinction, I do not have the time or energy to defend my stance on the issue and run around in circles about why I believe it makes sense). In many ways the program was indeed responsible for more deaths than we could ever really and accurately count no matter what research method is used. BUT even if the program never existed, I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks. I have had a couple of friends from the program suicide over things that had absolutely nothing to do with the program, not even in some sort of roundabout way. For instance, a mother suicided over a recent untimely death of her only child. In some way this mother thought that through her death she would once again be with the child she loved so dearly. It has nothing at all to do with straight (and she wouldn't want to be on anyone's list either, but that is another arguement).
In brief, correlation does not always imply causation.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... al_fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_implies_causation_(logical_fallacy)) for additional details on this arguement of logic.
Too much thinking, I need a smoke. ::bandit::
CHILD ABUSE IS NOT RANDOM CORRELATION-CAUSATION. THOUGHT REFORM HAS KNOWN CASUALTIES INCLUDING SUICIDE AND MENTAL ILLNESS.
YOUR SUGGESTION OF WHAT YOUR PARENTS WOULD DO IS QUITE ENOUGH INFORMATION FOR ME REGARDING YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HISTORY. IF YOU THINK YOUR PARENTS SHOULD "SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE" WHO CALLED BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING RESEARCH, AND YOU THINK THAT IS A LOVING FAMILY RESPONSE...
CALLING SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THIS:
I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks.
SURE DUDE, IF YOUR LOGIC RUNS LIKE STRAIGHT'S LOGIC, SURE.
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I ALSO SAY, IF FAMILIES OF SUICIDES DO NOT WANT THEIR CHILD'S NAME PUT ON ANY LIST, THEY ARE STILL COMPLICIT IN THE CRIME THAT KILLED THEIR CHILD.
So let me ask, are you saying that if I were deceased and you called my mother to ask her about my death and she told you to shit in your hat (which she would), she would be guilty of continuing to engage in child abuse by the denial of your request for information?
THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.
While I respect your opinion, I definitely feel differently. Frankly, I think that the program had way too much information about my life in the first place and that if anyone from straight came nosing around in my family business at this point in my life, my family obligation (as loving and caring folks) would be to kindly shoot the person in the face. ::unhappy:: ::smokingun::
WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, DID ANYONE WITH ANY KIND OF LIST EVER CROSS CHECK IT WITH SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH RECORDS?
Yes.
FROM CONVERSATIONS WITH STRAIGHT SURVIVORS, STRAIGHT WAS A CONTINUATION OF THE CHILD ABUSE THEY WERE ALREADY GETTING AT HOME
From conversations? Were you not in straight yourself? If not, things are a little more difficult for me to explain...
Again, while I read and respect your words, I beg to differ with your opinion. I wasn't abused by my parents, I ABUSED my parents in the worst of ways. Granted, some more intense counseling would have been nice before I was sent to the gulag, but they were desperate parents looking deperately for some sort of solution. They were sucked in hook, line, and sinker just like tens of thousands of other parents.
Also, I think there is an important distinction to make (and I am simply making the distinction, I do not have the time or energy to defend my stance on the issue and run around in circles about why I believe it makes sense). In many ways the program was indeed responsible for more deaths than we could ever really and accurately count no matter what research method is used. BUT even if the program never existed, I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks. I have had a couple of friends from the program suicide over things that had absolutely nothing to do with the program, not even in some sort of roundabout way. For instance, a mother suicided over a recent untimely death of her only child. In some way this mother thought that through her death she would once again be with the child she loved so dearly. It has nothing at all to do with straight (and she wouldn't want to be on anyone's list either, but that is another arguement).
In brief, correlation does not always imply causation.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... al_fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_implies_causation_(logical_fallacy)) for additional details on this arguement of logic.
Too much thinking, I need a smoke. ::bandit::
CHILD ABUSE IS NOT RANDOM CORRELATION-CAUSATION. THOUGHT REFORM HAS KNOWN CASUALTIES INCLUDING SUICIDE AND MENTAL ILLNESS.
YOUR SUGGESTION OF WHAT YOUR PARENTS WOULD DO IS QUITE ENOUGH INFORMATION FOR ME REGARDING YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HISTORY. IF YOU THINK YOUR PARENTS SHOULD "SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE" WHO CALLED BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING RESEARCH, AND YOU THINK THAT IS A LOVING FAMILY RESPONSE...
CALLING SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THIS:
I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks.
SURE DUDE, IF YOUR LOGIC RUNS LIKE STRAIGHT'S LOGIC, SURE.
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Very good point. There is no way to truly deduce what the cause was, but perhaps those that did choose suicide, for whatever reason, were somehow, impaired (by whatever reason...be that their incarceration in Straight or other problems they endured in life) to be able to look beyond their overwhelming circumstances.
I have to say that your friend who killed herself, because of her child's death, was heartbreaking to me, also as a mother.
Agreed. Anyone contemplating/choosing suicide is definitely not able to see beyond overwhelming circumstances and in turn flirt with what some call a "permanent solution to a temporary problem". I hate to use such phrases, too close to the cultspeak I loathe to remember. That phrase has helped someone close to my heart, though, so I don't mind repeating it.
I try to see things factually. The program indelibibly scarred the lives of my family and I, but I don't scapegoat my all of my shortcomings on my stay at the Straight Inn. If I were to throw it all away today some twenty something years later, I do not think it would have anything to do with straight, nor the bullies in junior high school, nor my parents divorce at a young age, nor the fact that my dog ran away, etc.
"Wine is fine, but whisky's quicker...suicide is slow with liquor"
Cheers.
I need a drink.
::cheers::
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I try to see things factually. The program indelibibly scarred the lives of my family and I, but I don't scapegoat my all of my shortcomings on my stay at the Straight Inn. If I were to throw it all away today some twenty something years later, I do not think it would have anything to do with straight, nor the bullies in junior high school, nor my parents divorce at a young age, nor the fact that my dog ran away, etc.
"Wine is fine, but whisky's quicker...suicide is slow with liquor"
Cheers.
I need a drink.
::cheers::
I know what you mean here. We weill all carry scarrs from that place. But, I can't and don't blame all of my own personal problems being in there. I had problems before and after. There will always be problems. Some may have had to do with the place, others did not in any way. I choose to use the word 'realistically' here instead of 'factually'...I can realistically see what goes on in my life and I accept it as that. I don't blame anyone or anything. I just try to fix it. That to me, is the only way to do it.
But, sadly, I don't think everyone is so lucky (for lack of a better word) to be able to do that. And then, there are those who chose to have ended it.
BTW, I think you smoke and drink too much...according to your last few posts anyway. :lol:
:rofl:
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YOUR SUGGESTION OF WHAT YOUR PARENTS WOULD DO IS QUITE ENOUGH INFORMATION FOR ME REGARDING YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HISTORY. IF YOU THINK YOUR PARENTS SHOULD "SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE" WHO CALLED BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING RESEARCH, AND YOU THINK THAT IS A LOVING FAMILY RESPONSE...
My family aversion towards the program is endearing to me only because they know (and share) my feelings about that period in my life. Shooting isn't punitive enough for all the misery straight has caused in my life twenty something years ago. Come over to my house and talk about "program research", I won't invite you to stay for dinner. I'll probably load a few shells into the gun. Others that were there may do the same. Sorry, it's a sore subject for some of us and and for me it's not a subject open to solicitations for information from strangers. For me personally, it is no different if Mel or Miller personally showed up on my door step asking me how many days sobriety I have or if some NSA affiliated agent came by and said he knew about my stay and had some questions about my tenure in the program and how I am doing today. Nope. Not me.
Don't come a'knockin and the gun hammer won't be a'cockin.
Now I have got to go smoke and drink some more to prove Valhalla right.
Cheers.
:D
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Now I have got to go smoke and drink some more to prove Valhalla right.
Cheers.
:D
Well, don't overdo it on my account! :D
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In brief, correlation does not always imply causation.
::bangin:: :tup:
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Hey 'Guest'!
You know which one you are...the one who I said smoked and drank too much :D ...could you please PM me? I've got something to ask of you.
Valhalla
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Hey 'Guest'!
You know which one you are...the one who I said smoked and drank too much :D ...could you please PM me? I've got something to ask of you.
Valhalla
I'd like to V, but I don't use my registered name here anymore, don't pm, etc. I suppose I could register a new alias for the sake of pm'ing you this once, I'm curious.
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An alias is fine for me...
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You have a PM !!
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You'll know it is me by my user name.
:wink:
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Well, check your mail then! I sent you one.
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I'm trying to get together a list of those no longer with us for the Memorial Service.
If anyone knows a name that should be added or a clarification made, please let me know.
Here is the most complete list to date...
[Admin note: Edited out at the request of Valhalla, quoted author.]
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Done.
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Valhalla,
I would like to thak you for all your efforts in what you have done.
Even though there are those who may have a different opinion about even having a list, I think you have done a fantastic job.
On behalf of my friend Dallas Noe, I thank you.
Flygirl
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Hey yen'z guys. You may notice that one of the names has vanished from the list like last year's campaign promises. Turns out it belonged to someone who's quite alive and well and nowhere near as easy going about the whole thing as Samuel Clemens was ("rumors of my demise have been grossly exagerated...")
My apologies to you for taking awhile to take care of this. Valhalla has my contact info. Please feel free to call me up if you want to give me an earful.
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Well, my question to you Cassandra is how would you or your family feel if your legal name was available all over the internet for the whole world to read rummors, some that hold no truth? I want to leave you with this thought: Anonymity is derived from a Greek word meaning without a name or name-less. The term typically refers to a person, and often means that the personal identity, or personally identifiable information of that person is not known. I think the people on your list, dead or still alive might not want to be on your list and I am rallying to have it remove in it's entirety.
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THis Needle bounces like a MOTHERFUCKER! Step lightly! :evil: ::bangin:: ::bwahaha:: ::drummer:: :rofl:
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THis Needle bounces like a MOTHERFUCKER! Step lightly! :evil: ::bangin:: ::bwahaha:: ::drummer:: :rofl:
Yes, analog sound (vinyl, etc) has a certain warm, organic quality that digital sound sorely lacks! Now back to our discussion.....
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Well, my question to you Cassandra is how would you or your family feel if your legal name was available all over the internet for the whole world to read rummors, some that hold no truth? I want to leave you with this thought: Anonymity is derived from a Greek word meaning without a name or name-less. The term typically refers to a person, and often means that the personal identity, or personally identifiable information of that person is not known. I think the people on your list, dead or still alive might not want to be on your list and I am rallying to have it remove in it's entirety.
I fucking well agree.
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Well, my question to you Cassandra is how would you or your family feel if your legal name was available all over the internet for the whole world to read rummors, some that hold no truth? I want to leave you with this thought: Anonymity is derived from a Greek word meaning without a name or name-less. The term typically refers to a person, and often means that the personal identity, or personally identifiable information of that person is not known. I think the people on your list, dead or still alive might not want to be on your list and I am rallying to have it remove in it's entirety.
You make it sound like nobody should ever be able to be contacted, regardless if it was Straight assoctiated. People that are adopted find biological families even when the family does not want to be found. The past hurts a lot of people. Does that mean for the people that are willing to deal with thier past have to stop because it may cause some feelings for other people? Family members have died, it happens. I think it is an honor to remember those people. The families of the deceased will allways have feelings about the deaths. I lived among some of these people that are now deceased. I was their sibling for months. I held them when their families could'nt. I was a sibling to some of these deceased people. I was family. Was I contacted when they died? Did I ever get to mourne thier deaths? Did I get closure at the funerals? the answer to all these are no. I am sorry that some of these people that I held in my heart as family are dead. The blood relative of these people maybe honored to be invited to the memorial. We would never know until we ask. As far as rumors or gossip or lies being told about people, who cares? thats something people at a young age learn how to deal with. That is petty stuff compared to death.
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I have removed this list and I would ask those guests who quoted it in their posts to please also edit the list out of those posts.
Until it has been completely researched and validated, I don't think it should be posted here or anywhere. Is there anyone willing to help out with that?
And I appologize to anyone who this may have hurt in anyway!
Valhalla
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If a family member chooses to honor their "fallen" family member by posting their name on the internet for the world to know they have killed themselves or whatever than fine! My point is that If someone shows up on that list as dead who is alive that creates a doubt in my mind about the integity of that list. If one mistake was made, how many more are to follow? If special care is not taken to verify the facts than in my opinion it is not a memorial, but a bunch of gossip. I too have lost someone to drug addiction and suicide, but I would not find having their name on this list as an honor. You are entitled to your opinion, I to mine.
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Oh my gosh whoever wrote that response...about who cares about gossip or lies being told, I can't think of one person who wouldn't care about gossip or lies being told about them... except for you I guess. You should respect yourself more. I also don't know what to say to you except I am sorry for your loss and pain over loosing someone you love. We all have lost someone at some time or another and it hurts. Get therapy, it might help.
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Well, my question to you Cassandra is how would you or your family feel if your legal name was available all over the internet for the whole world to read rummors, some that hold no truth? I want to leave you with this thought: Anonymity is derived from a Greek word meaning without a name or name-less. The term typically refers to a person, and often means that the personal identity, or personally identifiable information of that person is not known. I think the people on your list, dead or still alive might not want to be on your list and I am rallying to have it remove in it's entirety.
Google Ginger Warbis. It really doesn't bother me. Even the stuff from my own family. I respect myself quite enough, thank you, that wild rumors don't really effect my confidence.
Look, it's reasonable to ask ppl to edit their words. It's unreasonable to demand it, though. Here's the thing. Some of the things that people say in these fora are outrageous, extremely damaging, and the people about whom we're talking about would like very much if I were to edit it all out for them. I can't tell, except in those few cases that I know about, what's true and what's not. So should I edit out everything about Virgil? Everything about the Elan School people? Everything about Mel Sembler and WWASPS, Whitmore and Sue Scheff? After all, there are some pretty unbelievable statements out there. Some of them just happen to be true.
How should I make the call? Really, how do I know that you're not some dumb fuck working for DFAF who just doesn't want the circumstances of this person's death known? I don't. I just trust Valhalla to have made a decent judgement about that. And they were his words to begin with.
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If a family member chooses to honor their "fallen" family member by posting their name on the internet for the world to know they have killed themselves or whatever than fine! My point is that If someone shows up on that list as dead who is alive that creates a doubt in my mind about the integity of that list.
Ok, so if you're smart enough to pick up on that, then what makes you think anyone else can't? Are you smarter than everybody?
Quit trying to control others. It's only frustrates you and annoys them.
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I Googled you and what I found wasn't very nice.
I don't want to fight with you but you may have a lawsuit on your hands for slander and defamation if you don't stop what you are doing. I was a victim of your list and what you said about me was untrue and I consider it slander. I am not dead as you told the world I was. I did not die of suicide. We can keep going or you can let me express my opinion on your forum just as you have everyone else.
In law, defamation is a right of action for communicating statements that may harm an individual's reputation or character. The common law origins of defamation lie in the torts of slander (harmful statement in a transitory form, especially speech) and libel (harmful statement in a fixed medium, especially writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast), each of which gives a common law right of action.
For the rest of you, I read through the passages of this forum. Some of you have written really great stuff and I wish I knew you still. For those of you who really care and are thoughtful, I am sure you will do really well making a difference in whatever you do.
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Would the real dead guy please stand up? ::bwahaha::
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You may notice that one of the names has vanished from the list...Turns out it belonged to someone who's quite alive and well and nowhere near as easy going about the whole thing...My apologies to you for taking awhile to take care of this.
No jab at ya at all Valhalla, we have communicated via pm and I think all is cool.
But as the original anonymous asshole against the centralized listing of the deceased, I want to say that the fact that we recently learned of someone on the list of "the fallen" that is actually still alive and kicking only reinforces my perspectibve on the issue. To clarify, I speak not of who or whom not to remember at any memorial, I am speaking of the potential for some "list" that becomes a seperate entity, and someones pet project, long after the memorials.
I continue to believe any such list is not a good idea at all as it is an emphatically impossible task to accomplish with any degree of accuracy. If the list could be compiled with any degree of certainty than I would promptly shut my mouth and cage my typing fingers from pounding replies on this thread.
1.) the information is largely from unreliable information at best
2.) the omissions far outweigh those included and continues to leave possibly tens of thousands deceased as forgotten, which is contrary to the cause and
3.) it may dishonor the deceased and their families to even be included in such a list compiled by ex-straight teens.
As we spoke about in our PM V., November 11th will be like any other day for me. I respect and remember those that I knew deceased each and every day. I look at it like this, does the brother of a soldier killed in combat wait until Veterans Day or Memorial Day to pay respects? No, I remember with respect daily.
I don't mean to invite trouble, I haven't the time or energy to defend my perspective. I see the list as futile.
I will remember mine, you remember yours, no one will be forgotten.
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Q.Why do Irishmen always go home for funerals?
A. To make sure it's not them who's died. :rofl:
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When I came back from Straight, many people would come running up to me and hug me. They all thought I had commited suicide. It was kinda nice to see so many people excited to see me alive. I ca'nt say it hurt me at all.
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I Googled you and what I found wasn't very nice.
I don't want to fight with you but you may have a lawsuit on your hands for slander and defamation if you don't stop what you are doing. I was a victim of your list and what you said about me was untrue and I consider it slander. I am not dead as you told the world I was. I did not die of suicide. We can keep going or you can let me express my opinion on your forum just as you have everyone else.
In law, defamation is a right of action for communicating statements that may harm an individual's reputation or character. The common law origins of defamation lie in the torts of slander (harmful statement in a transitory form, especially speech) and libel (harmful statement in a fixed medium, especially writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast), each of which gives a common law right of action.
For the rest of you, I read through the passages of this forum. Some of you have written really great stuff and I wish I knew you still. For those of you who really care and are thoughtful, I am sure you will do really well making a difference in whatever you do.
you really are an asshole...making threats of a lawsuit....so full of yourself and your opinions that you see nothing else. Are you an attorney or did you just sleep at a Holiday Inn last night??
You really...really..need to get over yourself already. You might be surprised by how it feels to NOT be such a jerk.
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Q.Why do Irishmen always go home for funerals?
A. To make sure it's not them who's died. :rofl:
May you be in heaven a half-hour before the devil knows you are dead.
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I Googled you and what I found wasn't very nice.
I don't want to fight with you but you may have a lawsuit on your hands for slander and defamation if you don't stop what you are doing. I was a victim of your list and what you said about me was untrue and I consider it slander. I am not dead as you told the world I was. I did not die of suicide. We can keep going or you can let me express my opinion on your forum just as you have everyone else.
In law, defamation is a right of action for communicating statements that may harm an individual's reputation or character. The common law origins of defamation lie in the torts of slander (harmful statement in a transitory form, especially speech) and libel (harmful statement in a fixed medium, especially writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast), each of which gives a common law right of action.
For the rest of you, I read through the passages of this forum. Some of you have written really great stuff and I wish I knew you still. For those of you who really care and are thoughtful, I am sure you will do really well making a difference in whatever you do.
Why dont you just send a pm and ask them to take you off the list? As for the name on this site, I am sure there are other people in this world with the same name as yours.
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Shit, fuck.
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Ok, I already took your name off. If anyone who copied the list wants to delete it because your reasoning is compelling, why then they will. If anyone who copied it anon wants me to do it for them, I'll help if I can. But I think you'll draw more cooperation if you can find it in your heart to be a little sweet about it, ya know? It's not asif anybody set out to mess with you. Somebody heard you had passed and wanted to mourn your passing. Isn't it a little bit nice to know that, if you were gone, you'd be missed?
Well, actually, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the rumor originated in group. So if you want to go ream somebody you could probably pick a better target.
Anon, I'm glad you're not dead n, all, but don't push it. You can sue if you want but you probably won't get too far. See http://dchfans.com/ (http://dchfans.com/) I didn't make that list nor quote it. I only made one addition to it of someone I know of. I'd be thrilled to death to find out I was wrong about him, but I don't think that'll happen.
Oh, my apologies to Valhalla too. For some damned reason, I thought this was Mark's new alias. lol!
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you really are an asshole...making threats of a lawsuit....so full of yourself and your opinions that you see nothing else. Are you an attorney or did you just sleep at a Holiday Inn last night??
You really...really..need to get over yourself already. You might be surprised by how it feels to NOT be such a jerk.
Not that it is important in any way, shape, or form...but I wanted to clarify that I, the original anonymous asshole opposed to composing a centralized list of the dead, is a different asshole than he/she discussing lawsuits and such. I'm jerky in a different way. Not into lawsuits, just against a centralized list for several reasons. I'll spare everyone the redundancy.
I hate to be confused with any other asshole, I'm an original! :rofl:
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Look, the person whose name was listed, but shouldn't have been, seems to me to be a decent person, who is very upset with this kind of damaging information. I think they have the right to be, as it was not true and could possibly damage them professionally or socially.
And that is another reason for the list to come down. I don't want this to happen again to another. At this point, the list has done more damage than good and I don't want it to go any further.
So, I would ask again...for any guest to please go back into their post where they quoted the list and edit it out. Thank you.
Valhalla
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And that is another reason for the list to come down. I don't want this to happen again to another. At this point, the list has done more damage than good and I don't want it to go any further.
Thanks V., I don't even know what else to say, but thanks.
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Get therapy, it might help.
uhm, yeah, we feel the love. :roll:
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:rofl: :rofl:
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Sorry I couldn't make the trip. Kinda have to work, sad as it is to say. Wish I were with you all.
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Ron Filer died of suicide from khk.....he was a graduate of the program, and staff f course would not let us talk with him when he "relapsed" so therefore he was isolated and killed himself.
-DP
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I was intrigued to find my name on a list of the deceased. Though it wasn't all that surprising as I have made efforts to fly under the radar, so to speak. I would like everyone to know that I, Jeffrey Dugas, am not dead. I am alive and well and living in the beautiful Texas Hill Country. And now in therapy after being mugged by my repressed memories and fellings from 1988. In Ginger and Valhalla's defense I would like to say that that list came down shortly after I emailed them. Ginger even gave my her phone number so I could call and 'give her an earful'. I did call her but not out of any sort of anger. We had a nice talk. After reading some of the other posts about the now infamous list it would seem that at least one other person was quite upset about being labeled 'deceased'. While I can certainly understand the shock and surprise felt by this person, I fail to see how a lawsuit would benefit anyone. Also, I just don't see how one could possibly prove damages from having their name on that list. I came across it in a search for those who were tortured there with me as I would like to speak with them about what happened to us. Thank you for your attention.
The recently resurrected Jeffrey
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Welcome back from the dead. :rofl:
Can I call you Lazarus...or perhaps Jesus?
:lol:
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How about Trent Lott?
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yeah, really.
His ressurrection represents the despair in Iraq, Lotts resurrection, that is. Bush and his supporters have invited Armageddon! Iraq is a disaster for the world. The world won't hold the blood that will have finally been spilt when this war ends. In their ways of oppression. In their search for an unattainable security, they only succeed in radicalizing and arming their enemies. Bush will surely go down as the biggest idiot to ever sit in the white house and even and especially will his masters all be considered the same as he. And for some time from now I will ask anyone whose judgement may effect my life in any important way if they ever voted for Bush and if they say they did I will always wonder about their judgement and with hold some trust. The leaders of America are all too rich and cozy. This is what I observe. Bring love and peace not hatred.
Glad you're not dead dude! ::bandit:: In a way then the list is working...
Sorry, couldn't help commenting on Lott... pirate - out.
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Ron Filer died of suicide from khk.....he was a graduate of the program, and staff f course would not let us talk with him when he "relapsed" so therefore he was isolated and killed himself.
-DP
What, he got put on a refresher and was literally inside a literal building? Otherwise, I can't see how KHK staff could prevent you from contacting him. Please explain so I don't think you are a coward.
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William Ferron 1999 ~ suicide (RIP brother)
I knew Will in and after straight... He was a good guy. Ill never forget his funeral. Still talk to his mother, although weve never mentioned straight. Used heroin with will for years ( Its the blood in your tears, the pain in your veins..the lies the cries , only the stain remains)
Not gonna post details surrounding the suicide but if you knew him PM me and Ill fill you in
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Hey! Guest...you know which one you are....can you check your PM box? You've got mail, or yet better said, it's been sitting in your box for a damn long time!
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Hey! Guest...you know which one you are....can you check your PM box? You've got mail, or yet better said, it's been sitting in your box for a damn long time!
I have been away for awhile, V., I'll check soon and get back to ya sometime this afternoon.
Thanks!
:wink:
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You've been paged!
:wink:
V.
Hey! Guest...you know which one you are....can you check your PM box? You've got mail, or yet better said, it's been sitting in your box for a damn long time!
I have been away for awhile, V., I'll check soon and get back to ya sometime this afternoon.
Thanks!
:wink:
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V., You've got mail!
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And so do you!
V., You've got mail!