Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 10, 2004, 10:08:00 AM
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Greg, do any of your followers have an account of the final days at seed school? What hapened ? How did it close? id they continue to see each other afterwards. Once again, no one, but noe one wants to talkj about the 90's. Can you please ask them to post about what life was like indside seed 90's as we have no information about that. Are there people posting here from the late 90's and even 2000?? Interesting that you have 70's and 80's post, but no one has the courage to post 90's in detail.
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Dude, it wasn't a school. But that's OK I see from previous posts you were in some religious group but not the Seed.
OK, no posts from the last days of the Seed. I think this is because in the last days, there were only a few, very committed, long-term members. It's possible that it all ended badly as these things do when people who have been part of a closed society break apart. I'm sure no one wants to talk about it.
It seems that people generally wait about 20 years after they leave the Seed to start talking about it - so maybe in 2020 we'll start hearing from people who were around in the last Seed years.
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My followers?
:lol:
There are people that post here that were involved in the seed in the 90s. If they want to comply with your request they will.
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I heard about the Seed when I was 7. that was 1975. I wnet into the program when I was 14 then again later because I had a "relapse", basically I had a couple of beers on Friday after and was an alcoholic. I have been directly involved with the Seed for 20 something years, right up to the bitter end when Art lost it and started accusing all the guys of sleeping with Shelly and became viciously paranoid. I know one of the staff memebers took his guns away when he started walking around the house with them. Whatever reason the Seed was started, it became a cult and like most organizations and religions it is hard to say whether it did more good than bad. Many kids got off of drugs and stayed that way hopefully.
Art's personality for control and everyone worshipping him basically let him get to the point where the Seed was a cult. (If you look up the definition it is scary.) If you have good memories, keep them especially if they help you through life. It was very ugly at the end all the staff met with Art and "blasted him", but he and they were too far gone by then. Decisions were made over every aspect of your life by Art and staff if you lived around the Seed. Staff at the end tried to play innocent and , but really they ran the Seed at the end and didn't tell Art most things, he was gone by then. It's a shame, because I know a lot of people who dedicated most of their lives thinking they were doing the right thing only to feel like they were swindled and confused at the end. I definitely would not drink any cool aid offered when the Seed closed.
I just hope i'm not crazy
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On 2004-11-11 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
I definitely would not drink any cool aid offered when the Seed closed.
Thank God! I've heard through the grapevine descrptions of the way things turned out that are very similar to what you say. And I have to say, I honestly thought it would turn out a whole lot worse for you guys.
I just hope i'm not crazy
We're all a little crazy, friend. Don't sweat it. I think the craziest among us are those who refuse to acknowledge it. Check out John Ashcroft's 5 page letter of resignation, hand written so as to ensure security??? Now that's bug all crazy, if you ask me!
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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On 2004-11-11 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I heard about the Seed when I was 7. that was 1975. I wnet into the program when I was 14 then again later because I had a "relapse", basically I had a couple of beers on Friday after and was an alcoholic. I have been directly involved with the Seed for 20 something years, right up to the bitter end when Art lost it and started accusing all the guys of sleeping with Shelly and became viciously paranoid. I know one of the staff memebers took his guns away when he started walking around the house with them. Whatever reason the Seed was started, it became a cult and like most organizations and religions it is hard to say whether it did more good than bad. Many kids got off of drugs and stayed that way hopefully.
Art's personality for control and everyone worshipping him basically let him get to the point where the Seed was a cult. (If you look up the definition it is scary.) If you have good memories, keep them especially if they help you through life. It was very ugly at the end all the staff met with Art and "blasted him", but he and they were too far gone by then. Decisions were made over every aspect of your life by Art and staff if you lived around the Seed. Staff at the end tried to play innocent and , but really they ran the Seed at the end and didn't tell Art most things, he was gone by then. It's a shame, because I know a lot of people who dedicated most of their lives thinking they were doing the right thing only to feel like they were swindled and confused at the end. I definitely would not drink any cool aid offered when the Seed closed.
I just hope i'm not crazy"
WELCOME TO OUR FORUM ANON. We have been waiting for someone like you to come along and educate us from an extreme insiders perspective. Please tell us more, and if you would be so kind, email me your telephone number at [email protected]. I would love to chat with you.
GregFL
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On 2004-11-11 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I heard about the Seed when I was 7. that was 1975. I wnet into the program when I was 14 then again later because I had a "relapse", basically I had a couple of beers on Friday after and was an alcoholic. I have been directly involved with the Seed for 20 something years, right up to the bitter end when Art lost it and started accusing all the guys of sleeping with Shelly and became viciously paranoid. I know one of the staff memebers took his guns away when he started walking around the house with them. Whatever reason the Seed was started, it became a cult and like most organizations and religions it is hard to say whether it did more good than bad. Many kids got off of drugs and stayed that way hopefully.
Art's personality for control and everyone worshipping him basically let him get to the point where the Seed was a cult. (If you look up the definition it is scary.) If you have good memories, keep them especially if they help you through life. It was very ugly at the end all the staff met with Art and "blasted him", but he and they were too far gone by then. Decisions were made over every aspect of your life by Art and staff if you lived around the Seed. Staff at the end tried to play innocent and , but really they ran the Seed at the end and didn't tell Art most things, he was gone by then. It's a shame, because I know a lot of people who dedicated most of their lives thinking they were doing the right thing only to feel like they were swindled and confused at the end. I definitely would not drink any cool aid offered when the Seed closed.
I just hope i'm not crazy"
O.K. here we are at the core of the final days. Now, would someone please tell us what happened?
Tell us the sory in detail. By the way anon I hope you can tell us a little more about your involvement with the seed. Finally, someone who has the courage to start speaking about what really happened, in detail. Remember, anything we can not really speak about menas we reallhy are still brainwashed (as if er akeeping secrets to protect this people that taught us that anonimity essential in life).
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On 2004-11-11 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I heard about the Seed when I was 7. that was 1975. I wnet into the program when I was 14 then again later because I had a "relapse", basically I had a couple of beers on Friday after and was an alcoholic. I have been directly involved with the Seed for 20 something years, right up to the bitter end when Art lost it and started accusing all the guys of sleeping with Shelly and became viciously paranoid. I know one of the staff memebers took his guns away when he started walking around the house with them. Whatever reason the Seed was started, it became a cult and like most organizations and religions it is hard to say whether it did more good than bad. Many kids got off of drugs and stayed that way hopefully.
Art's personality for control and everyone worshipping him basically let him get to the point where the Seed was a cult. (If you look up the definition it is scary.) If you have good memories, keep them especially if they help you through life. It was very ugly at the end all the staff met with Art and "blasted him", but he and they were too far gone by then. Decisions were made over every aspect of your life by Art and staff if you lived around the Seed. Staff at the end tried to play innocent and , but really they ran the Seed at the end and didn't tell Art most things, he was gone by then. It's a shame, because I know a lot of people who dedicated most of their lives thinking they were doing the right thing only to feel like they were swindled and confused at the end. I definitely would not drink any cool aid offered when the Seed closed.
I just hope i'm not crazy"
O.K. Here are the secrets of all asecrets, please 90's people tell us and 200 people tell us what happened on the final days.
Note: this is not my post, I only edited for format problems.[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-11-11 22:25 ]
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I have 'heard' that there was a major confrontation- and that the the group split between Lybbi and Art. and many people were very torn, I got away years before -but can only imagine how horrible the unraveling was- I know there are those watching this site- who were there 'til the end- you hold the key to the ultimate closure for many of us DO THE RIGHT THING - let those of us who are trying to make sense of it find our answers- that would be just.
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This is great that someone's talking about this - not to 'hurt' anyone, but to be open and honest, so that people can understand their experience and not feel like they were crazy. Thank you!
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The worst part was the holding back of information. We were trained that to protect certain privileged individuals we did not need to know the "whole story," even if their behaviors and actions directly affected our personal lives. I do not believe that this was one individual, but several.
As Americans, we take for granted that our society is supposed to be open. In other words, we except that the media and other social venues be as "objective" as possible. We might not know the entire truth about our political leaders, yet we push to the limit and believe that it is "our right" to know.
Many years of training, however, taught us that in group it was not "our right" to know the whole story. We were taught that the inner circle always had to know and approve our every action, but when it came to the lives of the inner circle, it was O.K. if we did not know the "whole story." After all, they were priviliged.
I certainly believe that each individual has the right to privacy, with limited exceptions applied to those in leadership (whether the groups be small or large). Openness in matters that affect the group is a core responsibility of a true leader.
There is no circumstance in life that we should not know the whole story when it affects our own personal lives. Obviously, the secrecy and shading of information was a way of keeping those empowered in power.
Let us not forget that our freedom is the most valuable of all God-given rights.
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I believe I need to clarify that I hold no resentments against The Seed or Art. On the contrary, I believe that my years at The Seed (since I cannot change the reality of 20 years of my life) were valuable as I shared my life with some good people. I do hold some special memories form those years.
On the other hand, I see my time with the group as a controversial and negative experience when I look at all of the bullshit that was fed to us, especially the internalizing of ?believing that some people were more ?aware? than others?BETTER THAN OTHERS. What a joke? This I believe was the most damaging part of what happened to me throughout the 80?s and 90?s. I really believed it hook line and sinker, but now I see how the ?new agey? quality of the cult was for the birds in that normal people do not set up a hierarchy of importance as if one person is better than the other. I saw many members damaged psychologically from this nonsense. For me, the group was definitely a mirror of White machista culture, valuing everything that was not part of Anglo dominance (including sexuality) as less than. This was very obvious from day one to the end. What earned you points with staff was #1 being White, savvy in business, and money (the older the better). Diversity was not respected in the group and was actually discouraged. Diversity was tolerated up to the point where it was cute to be slightly different, but always there was a reminder that you were not good enough unless you knew how to make money. The funny part was that many members were not given the opportunity to excel (unless they really bucked the system?like in my case), and other members had the ?red carpet rolled out? to suit their personal needs. This was ironic, of course, since the staff proclaimed that no one was ?treated as a special character at The Seed.? Believe me there were several special characters that received the blessing for most decisions that they thought was convenient for their future. Interestingly, in the last years, key staff members who had been on top for years, were not given the same special status by Art since there were other favorites at that point, namely members that were involved in business with him. Anyway, for some the Seed became the ?country club? that it always publicly rejected in statements, such as ?The Seed is not a country club.?
Another aspect of the place that I now laugh at is its love for ?secrecy? as if everything that happened was ?White House? material. The world would go on outside of the Andrews Ave. walls and Arts house, and we were made to feel as if each and every business or personal problem in the group was so ?important? that we must be sworn to secrecy if we even wanted to hear the ?Truth? from the inner circle. What bullshit!!!! The least they could have done was filled in each member (after they had sacrificed the last 20 years of their lives to ?the cause?) of the internal problems that brought it to the end. Instead, the people ?in power? split in two camps and decided that it was best to, now, start filling people in on all the petty crap that had divided them (mainly money and power). Of course, those that had always been left out of the loop were now expected to pick a side or if not it was a sign of ?disloyalty.? At least, the 70?s gen. only had to deal with the manipulative guilt games coming from one major group, but those that stuck it out to the end (and were never part of the inner circle) suffered the worst of the ?drama scenes?-being pulled emotionally by two camps for loyalty (if you will). All of it was a bunch of crap. Thank God, I?ve come to realize there are people with real problems in the world (besides millionaires that have nothing better to do but mentally masturbate). I can see why they had no children to feel responsible and compassionate towards; they might have had real problems to worry about, instead of what was going on within the ?inner circle" or the "drama of the moment." Everything was treated as life and death when life and death was really going outside the group. Funny, all the things, they tried to teach me not to do they ended up doing themselves. I think it is hilarious!!!
[ This Message was edited by: 90's Guy on 2005-02-01 19:41 ]
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What a cool outlook! Woops! Did I say cool?!
Seriously, though. I think you're astonishingly lucid and resilient. Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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me too. Thanks for that post!
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Thanks for this post. This makes me really glad, more than ever, that I left the Seed when I did. I spent many years at the Seed, hearing that one thing was happening, but feeling and seeing another altogether different reality. I heard that honesty was the first and most important thing - what I saw was that honesty was punished. I heard that we were all equal - what I saw was that some had special privileges, while others did the grunt work. I heard that helping people was the most important thing, but I saw some who spent a lot of time pursuing their personal goals with Art's blessing, while others did the thankless day to day work. I heard that I would get the power of awareness, what I got was willing myself to be unaware.
When I had the courage to ask a question, I was told that "that's not important." I guess I wonder - not important to whom? Oh, right, me - so I guess I'M not important. That's what I took from that.
Doing one thing while saying another causes what's called 'cognitive dissonance' - you can't hold two opposite thoughts in your mind at the same time without becoming confused or crazy.
I think the previous post is right on the money. Art was a 1940s guy, from a poor Catholic (I think), single-mom family in Brooklyn. What kind of world would he invent but one where there is a rigid power structure, where sex is shameful and suppressed, where money and power are acumulated by the 'elite' of the group, and where the underlings are tantalized with visions of moving up, gaining acceptance by the 'inner circle,' and at the same time, told to be grateful for what is their 'lot in life?' As I was often told, 'ours is not to question why, ours is but to do or die.'
And I will say it again - what happened at the Seed can happen anywhere, where even good intentions can be soured by secrecy, power and rigid roles for people.
Thank you, 90's guy, for helping me to get clarity on this.
_________________
Wally Gator
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I too have become enlightened and educated by some of the posts that I have been reading by those who were there up to the "bitter end". It's funny because me and my Mom had a conversation about the Seed a yr or so ago. At the end of the conversation about the Seed, she said well it's good to know that Art Barker and the Seed are long gone. But, as I have learned, Art is still very much alive, surprisingly. I remember when he had heart issues as early as '85.
Just reading some of these posts about all the bulls#&* that some of these members saw, went through, makes me so glad that I was lucky enough to have clarity back in '85. The Seed I remember was very much a "country club" where certain members had priveleges above others.
The best job I ever had while living down ('82-'85) there was hanging Scott B's Sound Mortgage flyers on doors of houses. Me and another seedling would walk maybe 15 miles a day putting these door flyers out. All for $250.00 a week. But, seriously, that was as much money a week as they ever let me earn.
I remember watching others buy cars, get raises, advance in life. All I could do was come in to the Seed< tend the yard, (mother in law tongues?), watch the gate and be what I perceived then and now as 3rd tier, not even 2nd tier.
Oh the fond memories.
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Thank you for such an insightful post. I still wish we could know more about what exactly went down. I to put my life on hold in the 80's. I sold credit card insuance w/ a bunch of other graduates over the telephone, then collected unemployment when they shut down.
I still have so many ???
Which side did people choose at the end Art or Lybbi?
How many were left at the end??
Did anyone have kids??
Did everyone pair off into couples or were some still not 'allowed' to date???
I don't know - I take long breaks from posting because I don't want to let myself get to caught up in the past---trying to protect myself, in a way. But then I think, that knowing the truth is freeing. :smile:
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I can't agree anymore with your post. I remember becoming aware on how one-dimensional my thinking had become. We were the ones bagging people and shutting doors to a world that had both good and bad to offer. I can remember being very frustrated once I graduated in the inability to make decisions for myself and actually believing that someone else could make better decisions than myself about my life.
I questioned all my thoughts and decisions never developing myself in formulating any type of original thought or opinion. I remember feeling so trapped in this life but the fear that I needed the Seed for my own happiness and well-being kept me from walking away.
The Seed all ways was big on the ?power of the group? and the love we all supposedly had for each other. We were suppose to be in a tight bond with one another. Nothing was to be left unresolved amongst us.
I must admit I believed this and tried to live this. (It appealed to my sense of idealism). Does anyone else remember the raps on romance and idealism? How about the raps on Espirit de Corps? What happened? How cruel things ended up playing out leaving people alone and abandoned and emotionally destroyed.
In truth and in the end, that turned out to be the best thing for most people, To be force to face the world on their own and eventually develop themselves.
I have often thought were all these things that were taught to us all a pack of lies?
In my opinion no, the ideals were true and sound but the problem was how they were interpreted and manipulated by the people for the purpose of control and self gain.
So here I?am and I?m ever so grateful I walked away from all of this when I did and still remember my bonds with the people as a good thing. I do not look at the Seed as a terrible chapter in my life but I did see what a debilitating crutch the Seed had become for me and if I really wanted to grow I needed to walk away.
To me this is all too sad and I choose to remember the good.
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Thanks for all the info on the final days of The Seed. I was a '70's member, and kind of drifted away after I decided beer was not a drug..for me...I was 'different' Well, I got real different after that.
My abuse of alcohol later was a major contributor to 2 failed marriages, the second of which cost me much access to my kids,(now 21 and 18) and lots of child support which finally ended last month (free at last, free at last!):) Anyway, I remember Art saying to the group that if The Seed managed to keep just one kid from messing up her/his life with drugs, it was all worth it.
I realize some of you posting here are not 'addict' types, but I am. When I came up for air again about 18 years later, pretty messed up, thinking suicide and all that, I found myself in a mainstream 12 step program, and there were those darned steps on the wall again! The ones I used to amuse myself with as a kid. 'Sought through beer and medication to remove a conscious contact with God, as we understood Him' was one example. Well, the joke was on me. I had worked my version of that step to the best of my ability. The point I'm making here is that the 'program' dogma/brainwashing or whatever I had been exposed to as a kid came in real handy when I did develop a problem. I was engaged in behaviors which I knew were killing me, and I needed help getting stopped. I'm grateful the recovery system was still around when that time came for me.
I do not deny the negative impact The Seed had on some of you, but along with that, I must say that my experience was positive. Although it took a while for the 'seeds' to sprout, (I needed to dump a bunch of fertilizer on them) that dog gone dogma came back to the front of my mind when I needed it.
Based on the end time Seed stories I've read here, it is clear to me now that Art and staff are human beings. As such, they are subject to making mistakes, wrestling with ego balance, etc. as much as I am. (Sure glad I didn't choose them as my Higher Power!)
I remember in raps hearing people parrot 'your higher power can be a light bulb or a door knob' over the years that routine was the source of many a chuckle with my Seed siblings, there were 4 of us, until the fog started lifting and I realized I need a door knob to open doors, and a light to see where I'm going in life.
I am above all grateful to God for placing me in an environment where I could come to understand that even I can live a life with big chunks of serenity and peace in it. I have no regrets.
Take care :wave: , Thom :tup:
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Stupid Humans will always err like artificial inteligence only gamling with their own lives. :smokin: And it sux.
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Honestly, Thom, you were not messed up prior to The Seed. A pain in the ass sometimes? Sure! All smart kids are. But not at all headed for death, insanity or jail (well, maybe jail, but only juvee and probably behind a practical joke that would have turned impractical)
I really think the Program did a number on you. I don't think Joni left because of your drinking. I think the marriage failed because you both entered into it while still under heavy program influence. The two of you had nothing in common except for singing and laughter. In the real world, she might have been a good old friend, but not a life partner. She was after something entirely different.
I hate to even go here because I think you're probably going to get all indignant. But it pains me to see you flog yourself like this. The things you should be grateful for you hide in shame or throw on the bonfire. The things you should be indignant about you hold up as holy manna from heaven. It's sad to see. I miss who you used to be. I wish you'd just get it through your thick head that there never was anything wrong with you. You didn't need to be fixed or brainwashed or reprogramed or anything. You just needed to grow up, just like anybody. You know we'd be running that small town these days if we hadn't been scattered as we were.
When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.
-- Gary Lloyd
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Thanks Dr. Warbis...how much do I owe you for this session?
Probably right about Joni, but there were other issues. Neither she nor #2 cared much for sex after marriage...well, not with me, anyway. They say the third time is a charm. My current spousal unit loves loving me. I don't have to flog myself any longer!
I agree with you that my major pre-seed need was maturity. I never bought into that stuff about being 'a piece of shit' when I was a 'druggie' Here?s the catch: neither of our parents was equipped to lead me there. Some concepts I became Aware of (there's that scary word) during my seedation helped to point me toward that maturity.
You'll have to break down that grateful...shame...bonfire...indignant...manna thingy for me. You lost me in that drama.
As for running that small town together, if you mean Pompano, I would likely have left there regardless. It's too damn hot down there! Like Dad said, that climate was designed for alligators and mosquitoes...not people. Do you remember the story of Dr. Mudd? He was the guy who helped John Wilkes Booth with his broken leg after he iced Abe. The good Dr. was sentenced to life in FL for his treason. Dry Tortugas, I think. I didn't even commit a crime, but served 20 years in that hell hole (FL).
Well, gotta go, my oldcomer just told me I can't talk to you.
See ya, your prozac-zombie Brother, Thom
"Hypocrites was the reason for the treason"
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Nice to hear from you again Tom.
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By the way Thom, how long have you been sober and working your steps THIS TIME around?
Go ahead, complete this sentence for us curious..
Hello, my name is Thom and I have been sober for ________.
For a product you are so grateful for, The steps and stepcraft, it sure seems to fail you over and over. Een by your own admission you went 18 years after the seed before you went to AA, and then you thank the Seed for being there?
And again, I see a picture developing of a non addicted individual, submitted into involuntary addiction treatment, emerging with a addiction problem and an identity and ego built around the times he is sober. You must really beat the shit out of yourself when you are not.
Unreal, as I read it.
"you are only powerless if you believe you are"
gregfl
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A note to those looking around the internet for recovery support ? fair warning:
You will not generally find it in these pages. If you have recently begun your journey to recovery, and it is important to you, this can be a dangerous place to peruse as many who post here have had, or perceive that they have had bad experiences with recovery. Lots of bitterness here. This site is devoted to gathering historical data, usually of a negative nature, concerning certain drug and alcohol treatment and recovery programs and their practices. I suggest you stay close to the official recovery sites instead.
OK, Greg,
Thank you so much for the warm welcome, as always. Here are your responses, with your questions/comments in quotation marks:
?By the way Thom, how long have you been sober and working your steps THIS TIME around?
Go ahead, complete this sentence for us curious...?
Would that ?us? be yourself and some of your other personalities?
Hello, my name is Thom and I have been sober for 13 + years
(Like you give a crap, but I?ll play along for fun)
?For a product you are so grateful for, the steps and stepcraft, it sure seems to fail you over and over. Een by your own admission you went 18 years after the seed before you went to AA, and then you thank the Seed for being there??
Not sure where you get the ?over and over? from. I was ?straight? for a few years in the ?70?s, ?crooked? for about 18 years, am ?sober? for about 13 years now and very contented.
I don?t know what Een means?is that German? I believe here you are twisting the part where I wrote: ?I'm grateful the recovery system was still around when that time came for me.? Not ?thank the Seed for being there? as you misquoted. I was referring to the program (steps) of recovery practiced by various 12 step fellowships.
More simply put, ?I can?t, He can, I think I?ll let him?
?And again, I see a picture developing of a non addicted individual, submitted into involuntary addiction treatment, emerging with a addiction problem and an identity and ego built around the times he is sober. You must really beat the shit out of yourself when you are not.?
Time to change your picture developing chemicals. I entered the Seed program, and later, AA?. VOLUNTARILY? I have stated, and you have acknowledged this in the past.
"Unreal, as I read it."
It seems to become unreal as you read it. Reading comprehension difficulties would be my guess, but I am not trained in this area, and am not qualified to diagnose.
"You are only powerless if you believe you are"
(Try that theory next time you feel diarrhea coming on?mind over fecal matter! :eek:)
Now, here is my quote for the day:
?If God had intended for me to continually kick myself in the ass, it seems reasonable He would have installed at least one of my feet backwards so that my efforts would have more effect?
And an oldie but goodie from ?the raps?: ?Talk about yourself?
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Sorry, but this isn't group. We can talk about whatever we want to.
You sure about that 13 year sober thing?
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On 2005-02-06 21:39:00, Thom wrote:
"A note to those looking around the internet for recovery support ? fair warning:
You will not generally find it in these pages.
Absolutely. We will not nurture you thru your "powerlessness" here. In fact, many people wil challenge that notion. No one here is scared of the monsters standing around group waiting to pounce at your every word.
If you are looking for a feel goody "luv rap", please look further.
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Greg - you're such a hard ass. :grin:
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After reading many of the posts in this forum, it is clear to me that the spectrum of our experiences was greatly colored by how long we stayed at The Seed. I lived my life at The Seed from the ages of 17 to 38. During those years, I only lived away from The Seed one time, in my mid-twenties, for about 3 months. I also attended graduate school while at The Seed and pretty much am very satisfied with my career. In my personal life, I feel I have only started to really deal with issues a few years ago and have covered quite a bit since then, falling on my face over decisions I would not have made as part of the group since a lot was forbidden, but I am happy that through my growing pains, I feel more alive than ever before.
During my "endless" seasons at the Seed, I became very close to my friends. Despite any negative political undercurrents, I did feel that I loved people there, and to this day I treasure some very good memories. I also have at least a few very good friends, but only one or two that I trust totally (from the group). By the way, I also had a good relationship with my family as a side to my Seed experiences. As a matter of fact, the Seed always tried to remain on good terms with some families, but in the end the key members' terrible mistake of not filling those in the outer circle of the internal problems that were affecting the group damaged my family's perspective of the group and then they began to mistrust me since I had very little words to explain to them what exactly happened, after all Art nor Lybbi nor any of the key members filled me on what was coming down until it actually happened. At that point, the main reason why they wanted to fill me in was simply to win points and secure "loyalty." Unlike some key ex-members, however, I am happy to forgive people for their humanness since I am so very human myself. It has taken me a few years to get over the implications of the fianbl break-up, but more than ever I feel healed when I can tell my story with more and more clarity, not just through the eyes of others.
As I mentioned on another post, I never witnessed any form of physical abuse at The Seed. I did witness a strong presence from staff to convince members of political, social, and even personal issues. Abortion, for instance, was very much supported and pro-life opinions were highly criticised by staff. Supporting the Republicans was frowned upon and embracing the Democrats was praised. I agrred with some of the issues and did not agrree with others. I remember that two years before The Seed closed a few of the key members started really getting into reading "new age" literature. A favorite for a few people was the book Conversations with God by Neale Donald Walsch. I'm not exactly sure where the diretive came from, but the members really pushinng the book, were told not to read it or talk about it becuase at The Seed there was no place for this kind of "thinking." I laughed my way to the bank with that and read all three volumes as they scared each other away from the book. The last thing I was going to do after, after surviving graduate school, was allow someone to now tell me what I could read . . .much of that had gotten funny since staff's ignorance or fear of losing control was becoming so obvious.
Despite all this, I trusted my closest friends at The Seed with my life, and I honestly beleived that they would never hurt me. My concept of relationships, both intimate and social, came from the years of interacting with other members, and I can now see positive as well as negative affects on my personal life from those long-term relationships.
I often wondered if for some who went through the program, stuck around for a few months, yet decided to return home, the ultimate impact was better. Through the years, I watched some graduates who basically just "went through the program." I saw a few come around years later. I remember the few that did were praised by staff in front of us, and I always felt that they were happier, even more stable, perhaps becuase they did not allow themselves to get so deeply and intimately involved in the Ft. Laud. community. For me I ahve forgiven it all and to this day I have not received an apology about the lies and secrets that were kept from us at the end, unfortuantely I beleive I will not be getting one because each side truly beleives that it is right in its way of perceiving the final "truth." None of the key members involved in the secret meetings before telling Art how they felt about that he had too much control and all the other petty B.S. ahve ever apologized to any of us that were kept in the dark until after the fact, and neither has Art or Shelly. Basically, we were each expected to choose a side and "understand" the reasons why things at The Seed had not been perfect.
I have stated before that I hold no resentments against Art or staff becuase I do beleive that their intentions were good. They were human beings; they were/are not perfect. They made mistakes as I have made (and will continue to make) in my life. It is unfortuante that the key members created a very dead-end situation for themselves since each side decided to close the door on the other and "never forgive." This I cannot go along with. I refuse to walk my journey never forgiving for soemthing that is as small and insignificant as a "drama" as the seed's "final battle." I thiink we were all conned into living the war motifs and heroic myths for too frickin' long for now to have to suffer the slings and arrows of the final battle (according to each his version--HA! HA! HA!).
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On 2005-02-07 08:09:00, 90's Guy wrote:
"After reading many of the posts in this forum, it is clear to me that the spectrum of our experiences was greatly colored by how long we stayed at The Seed.
Sure...
and when..and where..and our personalities..and our ages..and how much our family's bought into it..and how rebellious we naturally are..and whether or not other problems existed.
My point is, it is a complicated reaction we all had to the seed. There is no way we can paint our individual experiences with the same color.
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On 2005-02-06 21:39:00, Thom wrote:
"A note to those looking around the internet for recovery support ? fair warning:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
See? This is what I'm talkin' about, brother! You know you didn't have a drug problem when you were 14 (which, btw, is not what you were saying last time we talked or the time before that or when you were posting here before) And you say you've been sober for 13 years now (aside from.... well, better not, it's your private business) And yet, for some reason, you seem to have made a lifestyle of the Program.
Why would you expect this site to be about "recovery support"? Is it labeled as an AA support group? Or is it just that you expect the whole world to share your perspective on the matter?
Just like The Orange Papers http://www.orange-papers.org/ (http://www.orange-papers.org/) is about and not a part of AA, this is a site about various treatment facilities and TBSs. This site is not a part of any of them.
And yes, there is quite a bit of hostility around here lately. But have you notices that, for the most part, it's coming from you? And, btw, I don't know if Fred Rogers would apreciate having that sort of tone affiliated w/ his image. Your other idea was much more apropos.
In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. Only one who knows the disastrous effects of a long war can realize the supreme importance of rapidity in bringing it to a close. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war who can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
--Sun Tzu (author of The Art of War
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Thom, I went back and read your post again.
You enetered the Seed voluntarily, at age 14, for a maturity problem?
You seem to think I have reading comprehension (and spelling) issues. Therefore, correct me here.
Your major problem was "maturity" and you voluntarily went in the seed?
Why? Were you already a seed sibling? What prompted this voluntary surrender of your 14 year old freedom?
Thanks.
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Yeah, come to think of it, I've always wondered how it all began. I know you and I have tried to have this conversation in private. But somehow it always winds up in a brawl.
I have to tell you, too, that I almost look forward to it. It's about the only kind of communication I've had w/ you in decades now and ... well, nobody does it better. Blow for blow, there's just nothing like a good old morning sermon and none but us goddamned kids and mom ever learned the lingo.
Maybe we can both be on our best behavior here with all the guests?
And I would like to know who went first, why, did Billi recruit Mom or was it the other way around? What's our history, big brother. I really want to know.
After all, who wouldn't prefer Middle Earth, unless they've been corrupted by a Ring of Power?
Jeff Elkins; Tolkien's Libertarian Vision
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Did anybody notice the use of the word "seedation". I've not seen that used here before altough it may have been. That's a good word to describe what happens to children who ARE NOT addicted and get programmed to be beleive they are. It makes one a zombie.
Seedated people go through life, searching, living on the edge and running with the big dogs but never really making it in phase of life. For some reason I was never able to truly get addicted to anything but I sure as hell did try to live up to that label for a few years.
None of the "seedation" became apparent to me until I realized I was programmed to believe I was an addict. My life has not been a waste by any means, although I have been what might be termed "a late bloomer" all my life. Who knows what I might have accomplished by now if I had not been "seedated".
Hey Thom, you don't know me, but I can almost guarantee you that there is nothing inherently wrong with you. You were never brokern or damaged until you were "seedated".
I was asleep at the wheel for 30 years. Man, it's great to be awake. :wave:
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Hey Stripe,
I was wondering if anyone saw that (seedation). I think I made it up, but someone may have used it somewhere. Although I don't feel wordy to be called a 'writer', I do get enjoyment out of wordcoinagization. Thanks for noticing.
My experience was a bit different. I never really felt like an addict until in my 30's when I wanted to stop a behavior, and could not. I never really identified with the 'drug addicts' at the Seed, except that I did beleive my casual drug use could conceivably escalate to a higher level. I had never even been exposed to coke, speed, heroin, and stuff like that up to that time. Watching the way some of the staff acted, kind of brain damaged, put a good scare into me for a while, and probably helped to keep my drug use reined in. So, I quess what I was thinking when I used the word 'seedation' was that my experience at the Seed slowed me down abit in the area of drug use.
As far as feeling like I was broken or damaged, I didn't and don't. That's just a theory Ginger seems to be fixated on for the last 20 years or so. I do wish she would move on from it. It makes engaging in any normal dialog nearly impossible. It always gets around to 'Thom, there is nothing wrong with you, stop beating yourself up' stuff. I'm almost 50 now, and don't really see much value in re-hashing stuff that happened 30 years ago.
I just popped in last week to wish Ginger a happy birthday, since last time I checked, she had my email address blocked, and I don't know a phone number or address, and then Greg, 'the monster at the side of the group' jumps in wanting to stir up discussions we had a couple years ago...I really don't have time for this these days. I pretty much live in the 'now' (although now and then in the then, but I won't deal with that now)
Take care, and thanks for picking up on 'my' word :wave: have a good life![ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-02-08 13:10 ][ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-02-08 13:25 ]
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Sorry you perceive things like that Thom. Your perception isn't always shared by everyone else tho. You have a way of saying things that begg to be discussed/challenged and then getting all indignant when people do so.
But more importantly, you have a sister here that I think is pretty cool. That you two cannot have an extended civil moment, and it seems to mostly surround program dogma issues, is evidence of the way the seed destroyed families.
Thanks for popping in from time to time to provide evidence of that in real time.
Wishing you the best, and a power enabled future.
GregFL
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Yea, just like that, see what I mean Stripe?
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Thom:
It's tough all the way around the seed place - now and then. My brother and I were in Ft.Lauderdale from March of 73 till sometime in 1974. He was 19/20, I was 14/15.
Being in there did not kill our friendship, but I can see how in the case of entire families, rigid program dogma might have some really negative impact. I surely don't know what I can say to make anything any difference for you and your sister. Forgiveness is one word I would stress.
For me and my brother, the experience sucked the life out of us and sent us down some long, hairy roads. But through it all we managed to stay kind and watch out for each other.
I've only been hanging out in this forum since November '04. I don't think Greg is looking to hurt you or jump on you. There is some history I obviously am not privy to that might make everyone's reactions more understandable to an outsider, but those are private matters. Forgiveness.
It took me a while to get used to reactions from people about statements I make - some times my comments make people react and frankly,sometimes people make react. But I like to think I'm an open-minded person, so I have to consider other's view points. I don't have to believe them, use them, or take them to heart - just consider them. That's the beauty of it all - the discussion. Resolution will eventually come for us all.
I have one Seedling friend I dearly love - but she and I are like oil and water on some of this stuff, but it still doesn't change the fact that she has also been a friend for many many years. We have just agreed to disagree about some stuff. I don't think it makes eitehr of us wrong.
Can you see that idea in relation to your family? Hope I see and read your words again.
Stripe
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I think the thing that triggers this whole thing off for me, other than the fact that I count Ginger a close friend, is that my family was also shredded by the Seed right along pro/con issues.
I was the con. I absolutely rejected everything seedling as soon as I could, and I paid a dear price. I lost my father for the remainder of my teenage years. My sister ended up having a close relationship with him which further seperated us. As I went into adulthood, no one would listen to me. In college I researched the seed and came up with all sorts of interesting stuff, but no one would hear it. I almost got in a fistfight with Art, and my family dismissed the whole thing offhand.
As I got older any discussion ended up with it was bad and hurtfull/it saved your otherwise deadinsaneinjail life. I remained frustrated and on the fringe of the more accepted dogma embracing people in the family.
This crap hurt. Finally it stopped but only because my anger left and my argument is too strong for them to challenge it anymore. My sister came around and stopped buckling under my fathers efforts to squelch examination of what happened.
However, I see remnants of my situation in this discussion and I somehow just wish it would fix itself.
Thom, you are always welcome here, I don't care how you feel or what your opinion of me is. I also wish you would understand it is sometimes a tad uncomfortable to watch this unfold in public for others, including me.
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And yes Thom, I picked up on the "Seedation" word also in your post.
It is a creepy word attached to a creepy place.
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Thom I hope you and your sister can just agree to disagree and move on from all of this. I was in tears reading your posts. Life is too short to stay estranged from loved ones.
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I'd just really like to know where it all started. But I guess I never will. Oh, and Thom, I have a spam filter. It sends out a challenge response that explains it. You seem to be one of about 5 people on the planet who have any trouble getting in touch w/ me ever.
If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs,
you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors,
shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general
nature, in spite of individual exceptions.
Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1787
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Hey Wtaylorg,
I may remember you even thoug I was a kid when you were down, you can email me at [email protected] if you want to discuss more.
Hope to hear from you.
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Hey John :wave: are you a glofer or a golfer?
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"I heard about the Seed when I was 7. that was 1975. I wnet into the program when I was 14 then again later because I had a "relapse", basically I had a couple of beers on Friday after and was an alcoholic.
Staff at the end tried to play innocent and , but really they ran the Seed at the end and didn't tell Art most things, he was gone by then. It's a shame, because I know a lot of people who dedicated most of their lives thinking they were doing the right thing only to feel like they were swindled and confused at the end. <[/quote]
Anon, what do you mean that "staff was also gone by the time they "blasted art"? Please, explain for those of us who have been disconnected from The Seed?
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It was very ugly at the end all the staff met with Art and "blasted him", but he and they were too far gone by then. Decisions were made over every aspect of your life by Art and staff if you lived around the Seed. Staff at the end tried to play innocent and , but really they ran the Seed at the end and didn't tell Art most things, he was gone by then. It's a shame, because I know a lot of people who dedicated most of their lives thinking they were doing the right thing only to feel like they were swindled and confused at the end.
Anon (or anyone else who was there in the final years)what do you mena by the above quote? Why was staff "too far gone?" These are confusing statements, that make one wonder, "What exacly happened?" Can someone please tell the story clearly as to what exactly happened?
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>Anon (or anyone else who was there in the final years)what do you mena by the above quote? Why was staff "too far gone?" These are confusing statements, that make one wonder, "What exacly happened?" Can someone please tell the story clearly as to what exactly happened? [/quote]
Art was mentally gone in the end. He had major Parkinson symptoms, but basically everyone split into 3 groups. Art's group / Lybbi's group and my family, becasue Art and Lybbi threw us out of their lives. feel free to email me if you wish [email protected] to discuss more.