Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 08:16:00 PM
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Really, it's like they have a sticker on their forehead saying I AM A SUCKER. The ed cons and program referral agencies must be laughing their asses off at how easy it is to SELL these parents a program guaranteed to fix their teen, HEAL THEIR FAMILY, give them back the child they once knew, etc. etc. etc.
:wink:
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Maybe...
But there are still a lot of struggling parents who have tried eveything local school counsellors, independent psychologists and psychiatrists, neighbors, grandparents and barber/hairdresser recommends before shelling out the cash. They are not laughing. And they don't deal with insane promises or laughing referrers either. Oh sure, lots of sleazy folks are around, but they are in most categories. That doesn't make it right. But all referrers aren't as you'd have it.
Give the parents a better, effective way to turn around a life clearly headed down -- and I don't mean a kid who argues with his/her parents if thats the only problem.
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//there are still a lot of struggling parents who have tried eveything local school counsellors, independent psychologists and psychiatrists, neighbors, grandparents and barber/hairdresser recommends before shelling out the cash. They are not laughing.//
No - they aren't laughing - they are crying - all the time.
And This is why they are such an easy mark.
Parents of wayward, aggressively rebellious teens, are really between a rock and a hard place.
They are expected to control/ discipline/ "parent" the kid. They are held responsible and accountable for the illegal actions of their teens.
They are required by faith, family, society and law to keep the teen educated,safe, and reasonably secure.
None of this is possible in the family with a teen determined to do their own thing - when their own thing is dangerous and destructive.
Added to al this is their own personal anxiety over the teen's risky behavior.
Yes - these parents are sitting ducks.
Desperate and at their whit's end.
Often not thinking clearly, simply due to the long term stress involved - and make no mistake - there is a lot of stress involved. Stress is well known to make people stupid. It can greatly decrees a person's ability to reason and think clearly - making them ripe for exploitation.
These referral agencies and programs make very fruitful use of all these factors.
They increase the parental anxiety by playing heavily on the risk of death or prison.
They have dozens or hundreds of Happy Program Families to refer the desperate and anxious parent to.
And of corse - when the parent contact a program or referral agency, it is b/c they are already considering the option - they want to be sold - b/c they are desperate for an answer.
This too, is what makes it so hard to realize one has been taken in by a farce and a fraud - b/c if thats the case - then what?
And like any victim of any grifter - they find it embarrassing to have been so stupid - and this keeps them from being able to see the truth as well.
These are natural, built in inhibitions to "seeing the light" - but with some programs, you have other additional and powerful factors - the Large Group Awareness Training, behavior modifying, seminars.
The parents are sitting ducks for manipulative, unscrupulous, greedy bastards.
And then too - you do have them that just want the kid out of the way. They are a different matter - but I still say they are the minority.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-09-25 07:14 ]
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I too believe that the parents who just want thier child out of the way are in the minority. It's hard enough to admit to ignorance, stupidity and manipulation without being accused of just not caring about your child. Some of us discovered the truth quickly and have worked diligently to expose the abuse of the facility.
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If you are talking abaout WWASPS programs, the "truth" has been out there since David Van Blarigan made TIME magazine in 1998, followed by (not necessarily in this order):
Intrepid Net Reporters
FORBES
Struggling Teens
Bridge To Understanding
Rocky Mountain News "Desperate Measures" Series
CBS 48 Hours
DATELINE NBC
P.U.R.E.
So what's your excuse parents?
Were you so "desperate" you just didn't want to believe the negative reports? Or ... was it that you didn't believe troubled teens had any credibility? In other words, you bought the program propaganda BEFORE you even sent your kid away?
Come on, it's not like there were not conflicting reports of "satisfaction".
TRUTH or CONSEQUENCES. Isn't that what you are so determined to teach your "defiant" teens?
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Not every parent sent their child to a WWASP program. Others are out there too, that represent themselves as "boarding schools."
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And, we were referred to this abusive "boarding school" Whitmore Academy by Sue Scheff at PURE. and she did warn us about the big-bad-abusive-WWASPIE schools.
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On 2005-09-24 18:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Maybe...
But there are still a lot of struggling parents who have tried eveything local school counsellors, independent psychologists and psychiatrists, neighbors, grandparents and barber/hairdresser recommends before shelling out the cash. They are not laughing. And they don't deal with insane promises or laughing referrers either. Oh sure, lots of sleazy folks are around, but they are in most categories. That doesn't make it right. But all referrers aren't as you'd have it.
Give the parents a better, effective way to turn around a life clearly headed down -- and I don't mean a kid who argues with his/her parents if thats the only problem."
,Meaning that I just think that parents need to start realizing that we have only one shot at this thing called parenting. So, I feel that parents need to take a more active role in every aspect of a childs life from birth until at least 18 yrs. of age.....free parenting classes are usually available thru local agencies and communities. This is a multifaceted problem which needs multifaceted solutions!
warmest regards,
-DPIs uniformity [of opinion] attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.
Thomas Jefferson
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Parents turn to these programs often as a last resort, typically after they have tried everything they can think of to get BACK IN CONTROL of a teen's attitude and behavior ... and failed.
I disagree with those who say it's the minority of parents who use these programs as a dumping ground. Look at the enrollment numbers. The demographics. The average annual income. These programs are full of WHITE kids from middle-to-upper class suburban homes. Parents who CAN AFFORD the best schools and therapists, not some one-of-a-kind B.M. Warehouse in a third world country or on some ranchland out in the middle of nowhere.
DP is right about one thing ... parenting doesn't stop when the kids are old enough to stay home alone.
:idea:
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On 2005-09-25 17:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not every parent sent their child to a WWASP program. Others are out there too, that represent themselves as "boarding schools.""
Very True! In fact, the negative publicity about WWASPS was a real gold mine for the ed cons and parent referral agencies.
Guess the bottom line is parents have to do due-dilegence. Really check out the programs they are referred to. Find out if that program pays for referrals, what type of kids they accept (adjudicated vs. non), talk to STUDENTS who didn't like the program and LISTEN to the reasons why instead of dismissing them as MANIPULATED or their parents as DISGRUNTLED.
Most of all, don't be fooled by fancy brochures or the HIGH COST. A program is only as good as the people running it. That is the carnal rule.
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My parents were duped. BUT, once they saw for themselves-- attending seminars, receiving letters, parent mettings, etc -- they should have put it together. They chose NOT to believe me, and fell into the program mantra. Hard to trust your parents once they threaten lawsuits against you to keep you locked up past your 18th birthday if you don't comply.
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Well, maybe you shouldn't trust them - not b/c they are "bad" people - but b/c they are at that point, indoctrinated cult members. Because they Trust the Program, you should not Trust them. They are no longer thinking for themselves, and are actually afraid to question the program. Thats how it seemed to me anyway.
As for due-diligence - it was not such an easy task a few years back. Yes, these sites mentioned back on page one existed - but googling didn't bring them up. Web searches only brought up a plethora of program sites. I now understand this is a red flag - but at the time I simply thought it an indication this was a premium program! I know that is ignorant - its embarrassing now - but that's the truth - and I doubt I am alone in this perception.
I had never seen the any of the media stories - and when my Mom asked me if it was the same place she saw a TV report on, I asked Teen Help, and was told No- they had no affiliation. This was a lie - but I didn't have enough information to realize it.
I took the info sent me by Teen Help to many varied professionals - Drug rehab counselors; school counselors, family doctors, child psychologist, a social worker I know, and family members. All thought it sounded like a viable option under the circumstances.
The point being - its not as easy to ferret out the truth as it seems. Sure, it seems like an easy task when you Know about all this information - but if you do not - if you don't know how to find it - it is not so easy.
There has, in recent years, been a great improvement in the results of googling. I google around now and then, just to see what pops up - and the results are encouraging. But this was not always the case.
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How many parents actually visited these foreign based programs BEFORE sending their child?
How many parents HIRED an escort service to haul their kid away?
How many parents read their enrollment contracts that authorized the use of chemical restraint (pepper spray) and even handcuffs on their children and signed them anyway?
Come now, a lot of these kids could have been spared the nightmare of being enrolled in these hellcamps IF their parents did not equate TOUGHLOVB with salvation.
It's a shame really. Parents ripped off, kids abused, meanwhile the ed cons, program owners, parent referral services could care less. Why should they? It's not THEIR FAULT the parent picked the wrong program.
Look at the disclaimers on their websites.
PARENT BEWARE.
You will be the only one held accountable.
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//How many parents actually visited these foreign based programs BEFORE sending their child?//
I don't know - but a lot did - and they tend to like what they see.
Even those who thought they were touring a boarding school thought that's what they saw.
My guess is, Its all in how its presented and which population of students they are allowed to see.
//How many parents HIRED an escort service to haul their kid away?//
Lots do. No doubt about it.
//How many parents read their enrollment contracts that authorized the use of chemical restraint (pepper spray) and even handcuffs on their children and signed them anyway?//
I never saw anything like that - but I know for those who do - they think (as I did when hearing about possible restraint) that it would only be for extreme cases of violent behavior - not an every day occurrence.
//Come now, a lot of these kids could have been spared the nightmare of being enrolled in these hellcamps IF their parents did not equate TOUGHLOVB with salvation.//
Sure - and that's the point of Ginger's Rampant talking theory - spread the message it don't work.
//It's a shame really. Parents ripped off, kids abused, meanwhile the ed cons, program owners, parent referral services could care less. Why should they? It's not THEIR FAULT the parent picked the wrong program.//
Its their fault when they practice fraud in selling the program to the parents.
//Look at the disclaimers on their websites.//
I never saw a disclaimer on the web sites. Do they have them now? What do they say?
//PARENT BEWARE.//
Good advice
//You will be the only one held accountable. //
Accountable to who?
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Bullshit! Very few parents visit these offshore programs before they ship their kids off to one of them.
Accountable to who, Buzzkill asks?
Well, for starters, how about your children?
The ones who suffered the consequences of being institutionalized in a money-making program, left to fend for themselves with no hope of getting out until their parents ran out of money or they turned 18 and decided it was better to live on the streets than stay locked up in some hellcamp for God knows how long.
:scared:
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Regarding transports.
Seems to me if these programs are so wonderful, kids would willingly go, ergo parents would have no need to hire someone to kidnap and escort their child.
More likely what's really going on is the admission reps are convincing parents to hire an "escort" (someone that works for the program or is affiliated with them) as a means of facilitating a quick transition (and closing the deal).
Kids who are at risk of harming themselves or another belong in a psychiatric hospital for intensive care and therapy, and even then, most kids are held only 90 days in a locked ward.
They don't belong on an island being cared for by untrained people.
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" Regarding transports.
Seems to me if these programs are so wonderful, kids would willingly go, ergo parents would have no need to hire someone to kidnap and escort their child. "
Without getting into inflammatory words like kidnap ... the remark misses the point that the kids don't do what their parents want, much less tell them to do. And, at any decent program/school or psych hospital the kid won[t want to comply either - or work to improve themselves instead of just get out. So what kind of help would a kid have to want?
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On 2005-09-26 12:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"" Regarding transports.
Seems to me if these programs are so wonderful, kids would willingly go, ergo parents would have no need to hire someone to kidnap and escort their child. "
Without getting into inflammatory words like kidnap ... the remark misses the point that the kids don't do what their parents want, much less tell them to do. And, at any decent program/school or psych hospital the kid won[t want to comply either - or work to improve themselves instead of just get out. So what kind of help would a kid have to want?
"
Inflammatory Words? KIDNAP is what escorts do. They KIDNAP kids for hire.
Sheesh. You must be a program (or ex program) parent who hired some thugs to "escort" your child out of their home and into one of these hellcamps.
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Inflammatory Words? KIDNAP is what escorts do. They KIDNAP kids for hire.
Sheesh. You must be a program (or ex program) parent who hired some thugs to "escort" your child out of their home and into one of these hellcamps.
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I think you missed it, How many kids would go to a TBS if asked (raise your hands).... I thought so and so they invented escort services.
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"The ones who suffered the consequences of being institutionalized in a money-making program, left to fend for themselves with no hope of getting out until their parents ran out of money or they turned 18"
So explain all the ones that stay after they turn 18. Or explain the ones that arrive at 18, and embrace the program. Try to get more realistic please, than "brainwashed" or implying they simply can't leave because Mom and Dad won't let them come home. Young adults make it on their own all the time. :roll:
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On 2005-09-26 15:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
Young adults make it on their own all the time.
No, not all the time. I consider myself very lucky to have found the stability and love I needed. It was a difficult choice to make and it has been, by no means, easy making it on my own. It's one thing to have maybe neglectful or difficult parents. It's something else again to be litterally shut out of their home and life at a young age. Leaving the Program made me an apostate to my family. That was over 20 years ago and, sadly, little has changed in that regard.
Government can do something for the people only in proportion as it can do something to the people
Thomas Jefferson.
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On 2005-09-26 15:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
""The ones who suffered the consequences of being institutionalized in a money-making program, left to fend for themselves with no hope of getting out until their parents ran out of money or they turned 18"
So explain all the ones that stay after they turn 18. Or explain the ones that arrive at 18, and embrace the program. Try to get more realistic please, than "brainwashed" or implying they simply can't leave because Mom and Dad won't let them come home. Young adults make it on their own all the time. :roll: "
Tell me, are you just terribly naive or dumb as rocks?
Embrace the program? What is that ... new age talk for emotional dependency on a bunch of knuckleheads who think they have a "calling" for helping troubled youth?
Man, I hope you don't have kids.
:roll:
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Struggling parents, as a general rule, are either afraid of, or for their children. They have lost control and will do anything to get it back, even if it means killing their own child's spirit and robbing them of their innocence.
Pathological Parenting. That's what's going on here. The parents are sick but their children are the ones being forced into "treatment".
Ever meet a programized parent you liked?
Didn't think so.
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actually, yes, five,ten if you count husband and wife, off the top of my head. All good, decent people that tried everything. Their children left them no options. Two of those families' children are greatful for the drastic measures taken and both have been out of the programs for over 6 years and are very successful aduts. One child there for drug issues another for just continuous rebellious behavior that was illegal.(different programs, different families) The other 3 families, the verdict is still out on if the programs selected were good/successful or not.
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Boy, did you hit the nail on the head...PATHOLOGICAL PARENTING, is what it's all about, and there are a lot of them out there. They are the ones who humiliate their children in public, give their child's ideas no respect and discourage open dialogue because in their eyes, it is disrespectful. Their kids are always grounded from social activities, phone useage, T.V., and the computer. Their children have few friends and are unhappy with themselves, school and life in general. For these inept, self-centered parents, residential facilities are truly a match made in Hell. These people are disgusting and should be held out to the public for what they are...child abusers by proxy.
quote]
On 2005-09-26 16:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Struggling parents, as a general rule, are either afraid of, or for their children. They have lost control and will do anything to get it back, even if it means killing their own child's spirit and robbing them of their innocence.
Pathological Parenting. That's what's going on here. The parents are sick but their children are the ones being forced into "treatment".
Ever meet a programized parent you liked?
Didn't think so.
"
[/quote]
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the families I know are nothing like the parents you talk about. These families all have other children as well. The other children did not go to programs or need programs. The parents are not self center or inept. They are family centered and very competent. They took the actions needed to preserve their children and their families.
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//Accountable to who, Buzzkill asks?
Well, for starters, how about your children?//
OK - fine - that's what I wanted to know.
I agree, BTW - that the parents are accountable to the kids - as well as the kids being accountable to the parents. In most cases, there is plenty of "blame" to be shared.
//The parents are not self center or inept. They are family centered and very competent. They took the actions needed to preserve their children and their families.//
I do think this is largely true - but even so, they often make terrible decisions based on faulty information.
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If the parents had taken charge of the parenting when the children were 2 and 3 years old, this wouldn't be happening. There is no excuse for allowing a 3 year old to "run the show". A firm hand when they are little will allow both parent and child to be happier when they are teens. The parent knows they will get respect, and the teen knows the boundaries and knows their parents care enough to set limits on behavior. You cannot wait until the child is 15 and skipping school, doing drugs and cursing out their parents to make the changes. The damage is done at that point and it will be up to the child to change themselves or suffer their own consequences when they are adults and think the world OWES them something. You are not doing a child any favors by giving them everything they whine for.
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The families mentioned earlier did the whole great parenting thing. Boundries, goals, opportunities, discipline, educational and social opportunities. One of the succesful graduates families has 4 children. Their second son just was bent on not cooperating with family. He is now grateful for his families intevention and helping him learn how to deal with his defiance. Until you know the family, the children, the circumstances....you just don't know. Each experience is individual. Not one program is great for all kids. Not one parenting style works for everyone. Not all parents that send their kids to programs hate their kids and are trying to harm them. Don't lump parents into one group. Just as kids should be treated on an individual basis, so should the parents. Parents are accountable for their actions towards their children, just as children are accountable for their actions towards their family. We are all accountable for our OWN actions! No one makes us make wrong decisions. We do it all by ourselves, parents and children.
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On 2005-09-26 17:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"actually, yes, five,ten if you count husband and wife, off the top of my head. All good, decent people that tried everything. Their children left them no options. Two of those families' children are greatful for the drastic measures taken and both have been out of the programs for over 6 years and are very successful aduts. One child there for drug issues another for just continuous rebellious behavior that was illegal.(different programs, different families) The other 3 families, the verdict is still out on if the programs selected were good/successful or not.
"
Just a gentle note: NEWSFLASH: /just because somebody becomes a "successful" adult does not make it correct necessarily that a "program or "the program" is responsible at all or in part for that persons success. Kids mature naturally....young adults grow up...maybe there are some factors within the human existence that ye are forgetting about!
warm regards,
-DPI don't think we're here for anything, we're just products of evolution. You can say 'Gee, your life must be pretty bleak if you don't think there's a purpose' but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
--Dr. James Watson, American biologist
[ This Message was edited by: Deprogrammed on 2005-09-26 18:44 ]
p.s. let us also not forget that the word "success" is subjective...may mean many different things to many different people![ This Message was edited by: Deprogrammed on 2005-09-26 18:46 ]
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On 2005-09-26 14:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
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Inflammatory Words? KIDNAP is what escorts do. They KIDNAP kids for hire.
Sheesh. You must be a program (or ex program) parent who hired some thugs to "escort" your child out of their home and into one of these hellcamps.
"
I think you missed it, How many kids would go to a TBS if asked (raise your hands).... I thought so and so they invented escort services."
I think you fecking missed how wrong kidnapping really is and that it is a felony level schmuck!Do you support drug prohibition because it finances criminals at home or because it finances terrorists abroad?
--Anonymous
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This is downright pitiful ... parents put their kid in a one-size-fits-all behavior modification facility yet demand respect for their (meaning the parent and teen) "individuality"?
Baaaawaaaaaaahahahaaa ... I think I now know what is wrong with these parents. They aren't just stupid, they are delusional.
Please, get help. Find a program that specializes in teaching parents how to think and act like an adult, not a middle-aged magical child.
:smokin:
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On 2005-09-26 18:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
We are all accountable for our OWN actions! No one makes us make wrong decisions.
Not when you've got a couple of deranged ex marines barging in on you w/ cuffs and nasty drugs as you sleep. In that case, you have no choices whatever.
And, at the end of the day, despite anyone's good intentions or compelling excuses, the Program is no more effective than doing nothing at all. That's the best case. Worst case, they actually kill a kid. Usually, they just create a lot of extra emotional baggage.
They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.
--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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Well hell, then ... if we are ALL accountable for our own actions, then the thugs who steal children out of their beds under the cover of darkness, should turn themselves in to their nearest police/sheriff department and face the consequences for K.I.D.N.A.P.P.I.N.G. a federal offense.
Ooops ... silly me. Kidnapping is only a federal offense if the person being stolen out of their bed is 18 or older. Minors don't count.
How effing' unjust and Un-American is that?
Kids Don't Count in America. They are second class citizens.
:smokin:
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On 2005-09-26 19:42:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-09-26 18:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
We are all accountable for our OWN actions! No one makes us make wrong decisions.
Not when you've got a couple of deranged ex marines barging in on you w/ cuffs and nasty drugs as you sleep. In that case, you have no choices whatever.
And, at the end of the day, despite anyone's good intentions or compelling excuses, the Program is no more effective than doing nothing at all. That's the best case. Worst case, they actually kill a kid. Usually, they just create a lot of extra emotional baggage.
They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.
--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous"
Very true. What's the kid gonna do? Tell the burly strangers to go F themselves? I'm sure many have but what could did it do them? They still ended up in the back seat of a rental car bound for UTAH or some other anti-teen state ... never to be seen or heard from again until they emerge from their "re-education" cult.
Pretty god-awful twisted, isn't it?
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On 2005-09-26 19:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-26 19:42:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-09-26 18:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
We are all accountable for our OWN actions! No one makes us make wrong decisions.
Not when you've got a couple of deranged ex marines barging in on you w/ cuffs and nasty drugs as you sleep. In that case, you have no choices whatever.
And, at the end of the day, despite anyone's good intentions or compelling excuses, the Program is no more effective than doing nothing at all. That's the best case. Worst case, they actually kill a kid. Usually, they just create a lot of extra emotional baggage.
They used to burn witches. Today we laugh at them. Today we jail people for marijuana. Tomorrow they'll laugh at us.
--Robert "Rosie" Rowbotham
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous"
Very true. What's the kid gonna do? Tell the burly strangers to go F themselves? I'm sure many have but what good did it do them? They still ended up in the back seat of a rental car bound for UTAH or some other anti-teen state ... never to be seen or heard from again until they emerge from their "re-education" cult.
Pretty god-awful twisted, isn't it?"
Edited for typo (good).
:smokin:
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Why does it matter so much how they get there? In the back seat of their fathers caddy or in an SUV with some ex-marines? Its only kidnapping if the child is over the age of 18 (or 21 in some state) or without parent consent. The important thing is the child is being removed from an unsafe enviornment to one that is thought to be safer.
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On 2005-09-26 20:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why does it matter so much how they get there? In the back seat of their fathers caddy or in an SUV with some ex-marines? Its only kidnapping if the child is over the age of 18 (or 21 in some state) or without parent consent. The important thing is the child is being removed from an unsafe enviornment to one that is thought to be safer.
"
Yeah right. Seized by strangers and taken by force to a private prison is a good thing.
Anon, you need a serious reality check.
Repeat after me ...
IT DOES MATTER ... IF YOU ARE THE CHILD ... SHACKLED AND BAREFOOT ... DRAGGED OFF BY PEOPLE YOU DON'T KNOW ... WHILE MOMSTER MOM PAYS THEM OFF WITH A NICE FAT PAYCHECK.
:smokin:
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IT DOES MATTER ... IF YOU ARE THE CHILD ... SHACKLED AND BAREFOOT ... DRAGGED OFF BY PEOPLE YOU DON'T KNOW ... WHILE MOMSTER MOM PAYS THEM OFF WITH A NICE FAT PAYCHECK.
:smokin: "
Again, if you are removing a child from an unsafe Environment to a safer place, how would you do it? If they are not handled properly they could hurt themselves. You just cant grab someone and throw them in a car and drive. They could grab the steering wheel, jump out etc. And yes they get paid, who doesnt. Why should anyone drive someone elses kids allnight, all around the country for free... get real, this is America
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On 2005-09-26 15:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
""The ones who suffered the consequences of being institutionalized in a money-making program, left to fend for themselves with no hope of getting out until their parents ran out of money or they turned 18"
So explain all the ones that stay after they turn 18. Or explain the ones that arrive at 18, and embrace the program. Try to get more realistic please, than "brainwashed" or implying they simply can't leave because Mom and Dad won't let them come home. Young adults make it on their own all the time. :roll: "
You answer your own question and then ask for a different answer? There is nothing unrealistic about brainwashing. And having no place to go is a very common reason for anyone to stay in a bad situation. Ask any battered wife.
If you don't like the word brainwashing, don't use it. Certainly, there are those who become convinced that the program is right and makes sense. Hey, there are plenty of idiots that buy the idea that dinosaurs and people lived at the same time and that the earth is only 5000 years old. What is the old saying, "A sucker is born...?"
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On 2005-09-26 21:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
IT DOES MATTER ... IF YOU ARE THE CHILD ... SHACKLED AND BAREFOOT ... DRAGGED OFF BY PEOPLE YOU DON'T KNOW ... WHILE MOMSTER MOM PAYS THEM OFF WITH A NICE FAT PAYCHECK.
:smokin: "
Again, if you are removing a child from an unsafe Environment to a safer place, how would you do it? If they are not handled properly they could hurt themselves. You just cant grab someone and throw them in a car and drive. They could grab the steering wheel, jump out etc. And yes they get paid, who doesnt. Why should anyone drive someone elses kids allnight, all around the country for free... get real, this is America"
Uh .... maybe the parent could escort their own child to the private prison (emotional growth school) instead of hiring a couple of over-weight cops and/or moonlighting probation officers to do THEIR DIRTY WORK FOR THEM.
And make no mistake. Paying somebody to kidnap your own kid is a filthy, dirty business.
So disgusting, most parents are only too glad to write a check for a couple G's to ensure somebody else gets their hands dirty.
:smokin:
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If you don't like the word brainwashing, don't use it. Certainly, there are those who become convinced that the program is right and makes sense.
"
and there are those who become convinced that all programs are bad and should be shut down. It would be pretty naive to believe that no one has benefitted from some of these programs.
-
Uh .... maybe the parent could escort their own child to the private prison (emotional growth school) instead of hiring a couple of over-weight cops and/or moonlighting probation officers to do THEIR DIRTY WORK FOR THEM.
:flame:
:smokin: "
Uh... It might be that the child can overcome the restraint of the parent, could be a single parent household (90lb mom, 200 lb child), could be the parents are abused by the child, Chronic runaway etc.
Why would it matter if the excorts had a weight problem or moonlighting? Not sure I follow your thinking on that one.
-
On 2005-09-26 21:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
If you don't like the word brainwashing, don't use it. Certainly, there are those who become convinced that the program is right and makes sense.
"
and there are those who become convinced that all programs are bad and should be shut down. It would be pretty naive to believe that no one has benefitted from some of these programs."
All TEEN HURT programs are bad, this is true.
:smokin:
-
On 2005-09-26 21:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
IT DOES MATTER ... IF YOU ARE THE CHILD ... SHACKLED AND BAREFOOT ... DRAGGED OFF BY PEOPLE YOU DON'T KNOW ... WHILE MOMSTER MOM PAYS THEM OFF WITH A NICE FAT PAYCHECK.
:smokin: "
Again, if you are removing a child from an unsafe Environment to a safer place, how would you do it? If they are not handled properly they could hurt themselves. You just cant grab someone and throw them in a car and drive. They could grab the steering wheel, jump out etc. And yes they get paid, who doesnt. Why should anyone drive someone elses kids allnight, all around the country for free... get real, this is America"
Clearly, anyone that condones this sort of abuse lacks any form of empathy for the feelings of another human being. The only reason this can be done at all is because the victim is a minor and lacks legal protection. Do this to an adult and it is a serious crime. Yet, I am certain that there are as many 'at risk' adults as there are teenagers. The only reason these programs don't exist for adults is because they can't force adults into them.
I know a woman who could not get her son to take a time-out and resorted to handcuffing him to a chair to force him to sit in it. Family Services called it child abuse. But, you can pay people to handcuff your kids and the authorities will look the other way.
-
All TEEN HURT programs are bad, this is true.
:smokin:
"
I agree, any program with the word HURT in it cant be good, TEEN HURT, PEOPLE HURT, DOG HURT, Would never do it.
-
On 2005-09-26 21:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Uh .... maybe the parent could escort their own child to the private prison (emotional growth school) instead of hiring a couple of over-weight cops and/or moonlighting probation officers to do THEIR DIRTY WORK FOR THEM.
:flame:
:smokin: "
Uh... It might be that the child can overcome the restraint of the parent, could be a single parent household (90lb mom, 200 lb child), could be the parents are abused by the child, Chronic runaway etc.
Why would it matter if the excorts had a weight problem or moonlighting? Not sure I follow your thinking on that one.
"
Here we go again, the poor-woes-me parent making excuses for paying a couple of big, burly strangers to show their adult-size kid who's boss.
Wow, must be a thrill to watch your kid get taken down and hauled off into the middle of the night, bound for some lock-down program hundreds of miles away.
:roll:
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On 2005-09-26 21:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
All TEEN HURT programs are bad, this is true.
::bangin::
-
The only reason this can be done at all is because the victim is a minor and lacks legal protection. Do this to an adult and it is a serious crime. Yet, I am certain that there are as many 'at risk' adults as there are teenagers. The only reason these programs don't exist for adults is because they can't force adults into them.
Exactly -- An "at risk" child can be forced to receive services to protect the child from making poor choices. Once you become an adult you are responsible for yourself. There are services for adults but most people (and kids) dont recongnize they are at risk, there needs to be an intervention of some sort to get adults help and even at that level they have to sign themselve in. So if no one goes to adult programs they become fewer and fewer until there are very few left. The only reason why so many programs exist for children is because the parents have the authority to ensure that their children get the help they need.
-
Anybody ever notice when they show these kidnappings on television, there's always some momster mom in the shadows wiping her eyes ... tearfully telling her big, bad teen that someday, he/she will thank her?
Sure, maybe as a condition for earning the privilege to go to the bathroom alone, a kid might tell or write their parent a thank-you letter.
Dear Mom,
Thanks for hiring those nice, friendly escorts to take me to a place where if I look out the window, I might end up on OP. This toughlove regimen is just what I needed to get over my "crap". Speaking of crap, did I tell you I haven't had a BM in two weeks? Wonder if it's the food? I haven't had any lately.
Extreme? You be the judge.
:smokin:
-
Yeah, but you would put your kid in a TEEN HELP kinda program, now wouldn't ya? LOL ... beware of teen helpers with a "calling" to help kids. It's not your kid they are interested in. It's your bank account.
::bangin:: "
Yes the word HELP is good, SELF HELP, TEEN HELP. Every program should be checked out, talk to people who have been there etc. If its a SELF HELP book, ask people who have read it.
Always remember,whether its a car dealer, or a drug dealer they wont offer information on how many times its been stepped on, they are only interested in YOUR MONEY.
-
Here we go again, the poor-woes-me parent making excuses for paying a couple of big, burly strangers to show their adult-size kid who's boss.
Wow, must be a thrill to watch your kid get taken down and hauled off into the middle of the night, bound for some lock-down program hundreds of miles away.
:roll:
"
Again -- Why does it matter so much if it is a couple of big, burly parents, with weight problems showing their adult-size kid whos boss, or someone you hire, who cares?
The whole point is moving the child from point A to point B. I am sure there are people that enjoy watching this happen, there are all kinds of sickos out there believe me.
-
On 2005-09-26 22:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Here we go again, the poor-woes-me parent making excuses for paying a couple of big, burly strangers to show their adult-size kid who's boss.
Wow, must be a thrill to watch your kid get taken down and hauled off into the middle of the night, bound for some lock-down program hundreds of miles away.
:roll:
"
Again -- Why does it matter so much if it is a couple of big, burly parents, with weight problems showing their adult-size kid whos boss, or someone you hire, who cares?
The whole point is moving the child from point A to point B. I am sure there are people that enjoy watching this happen, there are all kinds of sickos out there believe me.
"
Pay attention, anon. We are talking about struggling parents and why they fall hook, line and sinker for expensive programs that hurt their kids, not help them.
Parents who hire transporters to force their kids into a special purpose (nice word for COERCIVE behavior modification) school, camp or program are no better than the creeps who make a living stealing kids out of their beds.
In fact, they are probably worse. At least the kidnappers can claim they are only doing the job the parents CONTRACTED with them to do.
The parent has no excuse, except to repeat the same ole' tired mantra ... we did it to save our good child from making bad choices.
Why they believe this justifies their actions says more about their "troubled" and/or disordered personalities than it does their child.
In short, these are sick parents who believe the end justifies the means.
Hopefully their kid is kidnapped in a state that has laws to protect them from injury while under transport. Most states do not.
:roll:
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On 2005-09-26 21:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The only reason this can be done at all is because the victim is a minor and lacks legal protection. Do this to an adult and it is a serious crime. Yet, I am certain that there are as many 'at risk' adults as there are teenagers. The only reason these programs don't exist for adults is because they can't force adults into them.
Exactly -- An "at risk" child can be forced to receive services to protect the child from making poor choices. Once you become an adult you are responsible for yourself. There are services for adults but most people (and kids) dont recongnize they are at risk, there needs to be an intervention of some sort to get adults help and even at that level they have to sign themselve in. So if no one goes to adult programs they become fewer and fewer until there are very few left. The only reason why so many programs exist for children is because the parents have the authority to ensure that their children get the help they need."
Kidnapping is not a valid intervention, it's kidnapping. Being abducted is a terrifying experience and nothing short of abuse.
A child making 'poor choices' still does not deserve to be abused.
There are valid ways of dealing with teenagers behavior issues. Kidnapping them and hauling them away to a private prison where they are treated in an inhumane and cruel way is not one of them.
-
The escorts that took my kid to his program were the first people he respected in years! He fought and tried to escape, but the calm insistence (no restraints without our permission) of the escorts and their discussions with him through the travel day were the beginning of his realizing exactly what he had been doing to himself.
There is no way that hiring someone to do what you are unable to physically do yourself is kidnapping. Yes-it is a horror for the teen to be awakened by these strangers. It is frightening and unnatural. Guess what? So was the last year, months- whatever-for the rest of the family!
-
These parents are easy marks because:
1. They are in a state of panic. They feel they have no choice. They are willing to try anything; even dangerous things.
Their judgement is clouded.
2. Faulty logic. They fall for the rationale behind the tough love approach; break them down and build them up.
3. Faulty logic, again. They listen to Dr. Phil and Dr. Oprah and believe they are witnessing scientifically valid therapy.
4. They do no real research. If they did, they would find the faults with number 2 and 3 quickly. If they did the research, they would find sites like this one. Instead, they listen to ed-cons and program parents.
5. Faulty logic, yet again. If they do any research at all, they choose to ignore the warnings about these programs and choose to believe that the naysayers are all disgruntled teenagers who are lying. They ignore the very real logic that if there is any doubt whatsoever, the program is not a valid candidate. They choose to ignore the negative press, blaming the press instead of evaluating the issues being reported.
6. They have failed at parenting and are now passing the buck. Giving up and passing the buck is just one more failing. They have probably tried everything and claim it did not work. There are dozens of books on parenting written by unqualified hacks that claim to reveal the 'secret' to good parenting. These books are filled with bad advice. They tried these things, half-heartedly and failed. They blame the book instead of themselves.
7. They say therapy failed, when in fact, they never heeded the therapist's instructions or only half-heartedly tried.
8. They believe they are doing the right thing for the teen, and that they have the right to do this. They view their kids as property. They falsely believe they can control another individual, and have a right to.
9. They have more money than brains. They buy a solution.
10. Basically, as all of the above suggest, they are gullible. They have fallen for a scam just like those poor saps who send money to Nigeria in the hopes of getting millions in return; like those people that buy into those get rich fast programs they sell on infomercials on TV.
I don't blame the parents. I think they are desperate and grasping at straws to 'save' their teenager. They are ripe to buy into any solution that can be sold to them. The people who sell these programs are the real criminals. They know exactly what they doing and how to get rich at it. Not only are they capable of selling these programs to desperate parents, but they sell the tough love concept to a non-thinking society, and to public officials that use the slogans to support their offices. They are cold, cynical, and sadistic.
The sad part is that the teenagers are the victims. First they are the victims of abusive and/or incompetent parents, then they are the victims of the programs. They have no rights, no recourse, no voice. Many are too young and naive to even understand how wrong the whole game is and they, like their parents, are gullible and come to believe that it is all their fault and the programs are right.
-
Atomic Ant- I must have missed the post where you listed your credentials. You know, the ones that would allow you to opine that all the parents who rely on programs are terrible and abusive parents. I am so envious of your crystal ball that permitted you to know so much about every family.
Actually, you are blowing all this crap out your ass, but that seems to be the requirement for many posters on this board.
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On 2005-09-27 04:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The escorts that took my kid to his program were the first people he respected in years! He fought and tried to escape, but the calm insistence (no restraints without our permission) of the escorts and their discussions with him through the travel day were the beginning of his realizing exactly what he had been doing to himself.
There is no way that hiring someone to do what you are unable to physically do yourself is kidnapping. Yes-it is a horror for the teen to be awakened by these strangers. It is frightening and unnatural. Guess what? So was the last year, months- whatever-for the rest of the family! "
Wow, parents under seige, held captive by their defiant, manipulative, tatooed, pierced teenagers. This is scary stuff.
Wait!
Kidnappers R Us is available 24/7 to seize even the most unruly teens and get them to a private lock down facility of your choice.
They even let parents watch (assuming the parent can get off their lazy ass at 3 am in the morning which is the usual time kids are ambushed by these abductors-for-hire).
What a deal! In just a matter of hours you can make your kid disappear for months, even years.
Only catch is you got have zero conscious and 3 thousand dollars (credit cards accepted!).
:smokin:
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On 2005-09-27 04:54:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"These parents are easy marks because:
1. They are in a state of panic. They feel they have no choice. They are willing to try anything; even dangerous things.
Their judgement is clouded.
2. Faulty logic. They fall for the rationale behind the tough love approach; break them down and build them up.
3. Faulty logic, again. They listen to Dr. Phil and Dr. Oprah and believe they are witnessing scientifically valid therapy.
4. They do no real research. If they did, they would find the faults with number 2 and 3 quickly. If they did the research, they would find sites like this one. Instead, they listen to ed-cons and program parents.
5. Faulty logic, yet again. If they do any research at all, they choose to ignore the warnings about these programs and choose to believe that the naysayers are all disgruntled teenagers who are lying. They ignore the very real logic that if there is any doubt whatsoever, the program is not a valid candidate. They choose to ignore the negative press, blaming the press instead of evaluating the issues being reported.
6. They have failed at parenting and are now passing the buck. Giving up and passing the buck is just one more failing. They have probably tried everything and claim it did not work. There are dozens of books on parenting written by unqualified hacks that claim to reveal the 'secret' to good parenting. These books are filled with bad advice. They tried these things, half-heartedly and failed. They blame the book instead of themselves.
7. They say therapy failed, when in fact, they never heeded the therapist's instructions or only half-heartedly tried.
8. They believe they are doing the right thing for the teen, and that they have the right to do this. They view their kids as property. They falsely believe they can control another individual, and have a right to.
9. They have more money than brains. They buy a solution.
10. Basically, as all of the above suggest, they are gullible. They have fallen for a scam just like those poor saps who send money to Nigeria in the hopes of getting millions in return; like those people that buy into those get rich fast programs they sell on infomercials on TV.
I don't blame the parents. I think they are desperate and grasping at straws to 'save' their teenager. They are ripe to buy into any solution that can be sold to them. The people who sell these programs are the real criminals. They know exactly what they doing and how to get rich at it. Not only are they capable of selling these programs to desperate parents, but they sell the tough love concept to a non-thinking society, and to public officials that use the slogans to support their offices. They are cold, cynical, and sadistic.
The sad part is that the teenagers are the victims. First they are the victims of abusive and/or incompetent parents, then they are the victims of the programs. They have no rights, no recourse, no voice. Many are too young and naive to even understand how wrong the whole game is and they, like their parents, are gullible and come to believe that it is all their fault and the programs are right."
Excellent! And yes, it is sad how the children are the ones who pay the biggest price for being the child of a "Struggling Parent".
:nworthy:
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On 2005-09-27 04:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The escorts that took my kid to his program were the first people he respected in years! He fought and tried to escape, but the calm insistence (no restraints without our permission) of the escorts and their discussions with him through the travel day were the beginning of his realizing exactly what he had been doing to himself.
There is no way that hiring someone to do what you are unable to physically do yourself is kidnapping. Yes-it is a horror for the teen to be awakened by these strangers. It is frightening and unnatural. Guess what? So was the last year, months- whatever-for the rest of the family! "
Sheesh, what does this say about you, Struggling Parent? That your kid had more respect for the people you paid to come take him away than he did his own parent(s)?
Congratulations on doing such a fine job betraying your child's trust in their own parent(s).
Remember, you reap what you sow. Don't be surprised if someday when you least expect it your child doesn't have the time or interest to deal with your incontinence and instead, commits you to an assisted living facility where you will be reduced to having your DEPENDS changed by some cold, sadistic minimum wage worker with bad breath.
:wave:
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On 2005-09-27 05:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Atomic Ant- I must have missed the post where you listed your credentials. You know, the ones that would allow you to opine that all the parents who rely on programs are terrible and abusive parents. I am so envious of your crystal ball that permitted you to know so much about every family.
Actually, you are blowing all this crap out your ass, but that seems to be the requirement for many posters on this board."
Now, now, Anon, don't blame the messenger (Atomic Ant) just because YOU don't like the message.
Perhaps you would prefer to subscribe to the Struggling Parents forum known as Struggling Teens? I hear tell that forum doesn't even allow posters to disclose the name of the program they sent their kids to.
:rofl:
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Sometimes parents, good, loving parents have no other options. When there are other children in the home being hurt. When one child is out of control and refuses to be a part of the family, the way the laws are set up, the parent has to do something. A parent cannot just let the child suffer natural consequences. It is illegal to do so. If a parent doesn't search for a runaway, it is abandonment. If a parent doesn't commit a drug using or alchol consuming teen to rehab, it is contributing to the delinquincy of a minor. If a parent doesn't protect the other children from physical abuse of a sibling it is considered abuse by the parent. I don't thinkk that many parents intentionally send their child to an abusive facility. The parents have no choice but to do something.
-
Anon, what you're saying is true today. But it wasn't like this a generation ago. All good intentions aside, these laws are set up to rig the game against the kids.
Look over some of the advice proffered by the troubled parent industry. You can go to any of the toughlove hategroup forums and learn all kinds of nifty tricks for setting your kid up for legal trouble in order to gain some more coercive control over them. They'll tell you all about the Marchman Act and the Baker Act and how to word an assault complaint against your own kid in order to force them to obey you. Then they encourage you to blame the very same system which they've both lobbied to alter to their liking and instructed you to use.
We cannot in good concience allow the responsibility for this mess to land on our children. We're the grown ups.
A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace.
James Madison, The Federalist No. 46
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On 2005-09-27 04:54:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"These parents are easy marks because:
8. They believe they are doing the right thing for the teen, and that they have the right to do this. They view their kids as property. They falsely believe they can control another individual, and have a right to."
I agreed with everything Atomic Ant said in a very well thought out post. I picked out number 8 for comment for a reason though. I always told my dad over the years (years after Straight when we finally began speaking again) that I was never meant to be controlled. He agreed.
I believe many parents begin raising children from the get go with the faulty premise that children MUST by controlled. I beleive this mentality plays a major role in how parents get to the point they "feel desparate to find a solution because nothing works" because they canont control the child.
The reason "nothing works" is in my mind a result of trying to control the uncontrollable. People are not meant to be controlled especially those who are just born with a mind of their own and cannot be nor should be controlled.
That said, I do not think this in any way undermines a parent's role whatsoever. Structure and rules are fine but its the way the parent goes about enforcing the rules.
Parents get very hung up on thinking the child is uncontrollable when he/she continueously fails to abide by rules. In reality, such children should be approached differently. Why not lay out the structure and rules and then impose consequences but instead of the goal be to control, change the goal to guidance and teaching. If the child breaks the rules, fine that's their choice, the child will have to live with the consequences. If a child disagrees with a rule....find out why, listen to the child's opinion. Sometimes parents do impose silly rules soley for the sake of controlling the child. I firmly believe that if a rule is legitimate and important, if a parent takes the time to explain why the rule is there, the child might be more likely to follow a rule that makes sense. If not, why not negotiate a similar rule that fulfills the same purpose but yet allows the child to have input. This in my mind would bring about more cooperation because at least the child continuously is allowed to have input.
I realize that went a little off topic and there is much more to what I'm saying. But the point is...parenting should not be about controlling a child for the sake of exerting power over a child (authoritarian)...this will almost always lead to "unsolvable" problems. Parenting should be putting in place a structure that allows a child to make choices, allows the child input, and still allows the child to learn about consequences. This would help avoid a parent feeling "desparate" in the first place in many cases, therefore less likely to fall for sales pitches that prey on parental desparation.
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On 2005-09-27 06:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sometimes parents, good, loving parents have no other options. When there are other children in the home being hurt. When one child is out of control and refuses to be a part of the family, the way the laws are set up, the parent has to do something. A parent cannot just let the child suffer natural consequences. It is illegal to do so. If a parent doesn't search for a runaway, it is abandonment. If a parent doesn't commit a drug using or alchol consuming teen to rehab, it is contributing to the delinquincy of a minor. If a parent doesn't protect the other children from physical abuse of a sibling it is considered abuse by the parent. I don't thinkk that many parents intentionally send their child to an abusive facility. The parents have no choice but to do something. "
So the only viable solution in your mind is to remove the child from their home, school and community and place them with strangers who are somehow more qualified than you to teach your kid respect for God, Country and Family Values?
That's preposterous! These programs are full of "good kids" making "bad choices" whose parents can afford the hefty price tag attached to controlling the attitude and behavior of their children.
At least call it what it is ... a locked behavior changing money-making institution that no kid, no matter how "troubled" should been sent to in lieu of family counseling and training.
It isn't the kid who is infecting the family unit, it's the other way around.
Change your parenting skills. Throw away the program parent manual and get the advice of trained professionals (people who have degrees from real colleges and universities, not some mail-order diploma).
Work with a therapist who does not view your teen as the BAD SEED, the problem maker, the enemy. Blaming kids for their parents failure is a sick twisted thing to do. You are setting up a cycle of abuse that will impact your grandchildren one day as you have taught your child to equate love with abuse. (TOUGHLOVE)
Sorry, but your whining is getting old. No one in their right mind would ever agree parents have a license to abuse their children by proxy.
Why are you here? To convince yourself that you really are a good parent? Well, good luck. Don't think there are too many people buying the bullshit you are selling.
:smokin:
-
One of the recurrent "themes" I see struggling parents using is " CAN'T BE A BAD PARENT, LOOK HOW WELL BEHAVED (SUCCESSFUL) MY OTHER KIDS ARE".
Think about what this means. The parent is upset that not all his/her children are identical in personality, temperment, intelligence, etc.
One kid is different ... and ends up being banished to a hellcamp where they will be forced to LOVE THE PROGRAM as a condition for their release.
Again, this is just sick, sick, sick.
Shame on these parents. They aren't desperate, they are fundementally fucked up. Bet ya in many of these cases, the parent was raised by someone just like them ...
And the beat goes on.
:smokin:
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"One of the recurrent "themes" I see struggling parents using is " CAN'T BE A BAD PARENT, LOOK HOW WELL BEHAVED (SUCCESSFUL) MY OTHER KIDS ARE".
Again, this is just sick, sick, sick.
Shame on these parents.
:smokin: "
Its obvious from all these post that the KIDS arent the problem at all, it is clearly the PARENTS Fault, but wait, who taught the PARENTS???
The GRANDPARENTS !!!! Lets blame them. That way the kids can feel good blaming someone else and the parents can feel good by blaming someone else too. That way no one has to be accountable!!!!
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Okay, Antigen,
Agreed, the laws are wrong. In a perfect world the 16/17 year old would be held responsible for their actions, and he/she could leave the house if they didn't like the no drugs, no booze, no sex in the house rules. However, that is not the case. Unless you have a HUGE house to let the child "do his own thing" in his own room, unfortunately that child does affect the other siblings. The "friends" being snuck in the window of a shared bedroom, the drugs being left around where a younger child could get ahold of them. The physical threats if mom or dad is told. What are those parents to do? Just hide and hope no one gets hurt? The family I am specifically thinking of did try family counseling, one on one therapy, parenting classes, testing to see if there was some need for meds, consequences are great but when you take away the car and say you are grounded and the kid still bolts out the door or window in the middle of night, or brings people in....then what? When the other children are scared and looking for other people to stay with so they don't have to deal with brother...what then? Let everyone suffer while one grows up? What about the effect on the other children? This family has grieved and grieved over what to do. I don't know anyone who was happy to ship their kid off. But again, where is the solution? Oh, before you say try friends and other family. They did that. Everyone sent the child back to the parents. The longest he stayed anywhere was 3 weeks before he was told to leave.
-
You got it! A great point for the orgin of man! It all goes back to Eve and that apple! Just keep pushing the blame back!
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Here's an idea; how about if the kids start behaving at home and respecting their parents and staying in school and staying off drugs! That way their parents won't have a chance to turn into "strugging parents" and look for schools to put their kids in. Everybody wins. Kids behave. Parents don't have to shell out 100,000 dollars for someone to do their parenting for them. Bad schools don't have a chance to make money off of them. Just imagine the possibilities!
-
I like it! Sounds like a great idea!
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I agree! Teens are the future parents of tomorrow. Break this vicious cycle and start taking resonsibility for youselves. That way parents don't always have to be the bad guys!
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I agree too, plus we dont have to waste all this time trying to shut down all the TEEN HELP schools because all the kids being raised now are going to have parents that are so much more aware or their childrens' needs that the Schools will go out of business becuase they wont be needed. If everyone is correct we should start seeing a downturn in enrollment any time now.
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On 2005-09-27 10:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Okay, Antigen,
Agreed, the laws are wrong. In a perfect world the 16/17 year old would be held responsible for their actions, and he/she could leave the house if they didn't like the no drugs, no booze, no sex in the house rules. However, that is not the case. Unless you have a HUGE house to let the child "do his own thing" in his own room, unfortunately that child does affect the other siblings. The "friends" being snuck in the window of a shared bedroom, the drugs being left around where a younger child could get ahold of them. The physical threats if mom or dad is told. What are those parents to do? Just hide and hope no one gets hurt? The family I am specifically thinking of did try family counseling, one on one therapy, parenting classes, testing to see if there was some need for meds, consequences are great but when you take away the car and say you are grounded and the kid still bolts out the door or window in the middle of night, or brings people in....then what? When the other children are scared and looking for other people to stay with so they don't have to deal with brother...what then? Let everyone suffer while one grows up? What about the effect on the other children? This family has grieved and grieved over what to do. I don't know anyone who was happy to ship their kid off. But again, where is the solution? Oh, before you say try friends and other family. They did that. Everyone sent the child back to the parents. The longest he stayed anywhere was 3 weeks before he was told to leave."
LOL .. this is sooooo fake ... perfectly tailored to fit your argument.
Look, troubled teens are a dime a dozen. Nothing special about yours or your imaginary friends.
Lighten up on the noose around your kid's neck, he/she just might start jumping through hoops for ya.
Teens are supposed to separate from their parents, some do push the envelope too far, and in the old days, landed in juvie where they got their provervial wake-up call ... not some abusive private hellhole where their parents paid to keep them for years.
Wise up, and stop with the propagandic messages.
We know better.
:smokin:
-
sorry, i no longer have a teen, and fortunately, by God's grace, my child has grown into a mature, kind, respectful adult, despite my parenting mistakes! I have sent my friends to this sight in order to give them a heads up to any red flags the program their son is in may send out. They are distraught over their decision. It wasn't one entered into lightly. And your response still doesn't answer the question as to "what then?" How do you protect the other children? Sometimes, a program IS the only solution. So...parents, shop carefully. If you know of something else what is it? If nothing else is there, then you guys that have been thru it may be able to make a fortune by opening up a place that WILL be a solution.
-
On 2005-09-27 12:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"sorry, i no longer have a teen, and fortunately, by God's grace, my child has grown into a mature, kind, respectful adult, despite my parenting mistakes! I have sent my friends to this sight in order to give them a heads up to any red flags the program their son is in may send out. They are distraught over their decision. It wasn't one entered into lightly. And your response still doesn't answer the question as to "what then?" How do you protect the other children? Sometimes, a program IS the only solution. So...parents, shop carefully. If you know of something else what is it? If nothing else is there, then you guys that have been thru it may be able to make a fortune by opening up a place that WILL be a solution."
Bottom Line: The for-profit teen help industry is grossly under-regulated and rife with allegations of abuse and fraud.
Any parent considering an out-of-home placement should know who they are dealing with. Some of these outfits have been in business 3 weesk, while others, have been in business for years, and claim to have a near 100% satisfaction rate. This is false. No program CAN GUARANTEE to fix your kid, and parents who believe that are making the first of many mistakes that may cost them dearly.
Second, parents should not be making decisions while under extreme (real or imagined) stress. Remember, you are talking to ADMISSIONS REPS, whose job is to SELL you on choosing their program above all others. This is an extremely competitive business. There are profiteers all over the Internet just waiting for your call or email ... some will even trade your info in the hopes of getting paid for a referred SALES LEAD.
BUYER BEWARE.
Keep your kid at home and find the best therapist or family counselor you can. You will save yourself a lot of money AND have a much better chance of healing your family from the inside out.
Trust me. You won't regret this ...
JUST SAY NO TO TEEN HELP PROGRAMS.
Don't give up on your kid by shipping them off expecting them to come back one day as the child they once were. That is regressive, not healthy.
Embrace your child and work with them to overcome their difficulties through counseling, reasonable and RATIONAL boundaries, sibling conferences, etc.
The dirty little secret is the teen help industry needs YOUR TEEN to stay in business. Remember that when the admissions rep is telling you everything you want (need) to hear .... WE FEEL YOUR PAIN, WE HAVE BEEN THERE ... I WAS ONCE A DESPERATE PARENT ... it's all sales tactics and techniques and these people are very very good at what they are selling. FALSE HOPE.
Good Luck.
:smokin:
-
Number One Sales Pitch:
CALL TODAY BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.
Think about what that means.
Too late for what? Too late for whom (you or your teen???)
Admissions Reps have QUOTAS to fill. Heads to put in the beds. Hoods to put in the woods. You are kidding yourself if you think your child is anything but a meal-ticket for these program owners and operators. Check out their fancy homes, cars, boats and vacation condos .... then ask yourself if your KID IS FOR SALE????
:smokin:
-
"What then?" Thats a interesting question, how do you protect the rest of the children in "the beast." I hopd to a scorched earth policy. Destroy it all, now I dont mean blow it up to kill people, what I mean is one instance of abuse, the school is ellimated and every one working there, wheather they had anything to do with the abuse or not, is sent to prision. thats all in my view that we need to see, becauses these places are out in the middle of no where, so if we see one, then the chanes are great that there are more. These are children. If trust is broken once with your child, its always broken, so we cannot have these people with children again, I dont care what your exucse or reason for the abuse is.
-
<
Admissions Reps have QUOTAS to fill. Heads to put in the beds. Hoods to put in the woods. You are kidding yourself if you think your child is anything but a meal-ticket for these program owners and operators. Check out their fancy homes, cars, boats and vacation condos .... then ask yourself if your KID IS FOR SALE????
:smokin: "
The way you judge schools is a little screwy, I suggest the parents look at the curriculum and talk to students/parents who have graduated or completed the programs before sending any child there.
The director or our local YMCA has a nice house and a boat but it doesnt mean he abuses the kids or we are selling them to the local YMCA. The YMCA has quotas too. Would you feel any better about sending your kid to a school where the owners had to work second shifts at Walmart to bring food home for the kiddies or have the dorms painted. If people want to pay that much let them, I dont think it adds to or detracts from the program.
-
On 2005-09-27 14:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
<
Admissions Reps have QUOTAS to fill. Heads to put in the beds. Hoods to put in the woods. You are kidding yourself if you think your child is anything but a meal-ticket for these program owners and operators. Check out their fancy homes, cars, boats and vacation condos .... then ask yourself if your KID IS FOR SALE????
:smokin: "
The way you judge schools is a little screwy, I suggest the parents look at the curriculum and talk to students/parents who have graduated or completed the programs before sending any child there.
The director or our local YMCA has a nice house and a boat but it doesnt mean he abuses the kids or we are selling them to the local YMCA. The YMCA has quotas too. Would you feel any better about sending your kid to a school where the owners had to work second shifts at Walmart to bring food home for the kiddies or have the dorms painted. If people want to pay that much let them, I dont think it adds to or detracts from the program."
You really don't have your head screwed on right, anon, because you keep missing the point.
It's the money, stupid.
You are doing a dis-service to parents and teens by insisting the teen help industry is in the business, first and foremost, of helping teens.
That simply is not true.
These one-size-fits-all behavior modification programs are warehousing teens. There is no meaningful therapy, and most of the time, no meaningful education. They are high-priced babysitters, with a propensity for cruel, sadistic treatment to keep the population under control.
Take your propaganda teen help crap to the Struggling Teens forum where you will find other stepforish parents who think like you do.
You are really disgusting.
:smokin:
-
These one-size-fits-all behavior modification programs are warehousing teens. There is no meaningful therapy, and most of the time, no meaningful education. They are high-priced babysitters, with a propensity for cruel, sadistic treatment to keep the population under control AND THOSE FAT TUITION CHECKS COMING ....
Take your propaganda teen help crap to the Struggling Teens forum where you will find other stepfordish parents who think like you do.
You are really disgusting.
:smokin:
"
-
"These one-size-fits-all behavior modification programs are warehousing teens. There is no meaningful therapy, and most of the time, no meaningful education. They are high-priced babysitters, with a propensity for cruel, sadistic treatment to keep the population under control."
Your statements are complete bullshit. There are many kind, compassionate people working in the teen help industry. Yes, there are some who are bad guys, as in any segment of the population. There are some good programs out there with staff who try their hardest to do the right thing for each teen under their wing. If you think starting an emotional growth school is the ticket to wealth, think again. The expenses of the staff, facilities and insurance are huge. It is a huge responsibility and one which most of the directors take very seriously.
Yes, I would encourage all parents to go to the strugglingteens.com website for accurate information about programs and issues concerning troubled teens.
This board is a disgrace, but fortunately it is so obvious that it is populated by crazies that no one would believe any of the ignorant anti-program ravings of these losers.
-
On 2005-09-27 14:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
""These one-size-fits-all behavior modification programs are warehousing teens. There is no meaningful therapy, and most of the time, no meaningful education. They are high-priced babysitters, with a propensity for cruel, sadistic treatment to keep the population under control."
Your statements are complete bullshit. There are many kind, compassionate people working in the teen help industry. Yes, there are some who are bad guys, as in any segment of the population. There are some good programs out there with staff who try their hardest to do the right thing for each teen under their wing. If you think starting an emotional growth school is the ticket to wealth, think again. The expenses of the staff, facilities and insurance are huge. It is a huge responsibility and one which most of the directors take very seriously.
Yes, I would encourage all parents to go to the strugglingteens.com website for accurate information about programs and issues concerning troubled teens.
This board is a disgrace, but fortunately it is so obvious that it is populated by crazies that no one would believe any of the ignorant anti-program ravings of these losers.
"
BAWAAAAAAHAHAHAAA don't you wish the Fornit's anti-teen help posters and program survivors were not having an impact on this industry and making you parents-from-hell look like the buffoons you really are.
See you at ST ... it's such fun watching the program parents squirm everytime somebody reminds them there is no cure for adolescence.
What?
"I spent $100k trying to change/control my damn kid's attitude and behavior and my kid is still smoking pot and having sex with his girlfriend. What's a parent to do????? BOO HOO HOO."
:smokin:
-
It's the money, stupid.
You are doing a dis-service to parents and teens by insisting the teen help industry is in the business, first and foremost, of helping teens.
:smokin:
"
Knock.Knock Hello:
Give me a list of industries that are not in it for the money !!!! Churchs,Schools even public school try to boast there income by raising taxes so they can attract richer people to move into their community so the teachers can get a raise. The head of the American Red Cross doesnt get paid $8/ hour.
Think about what you are saying !!!
Are you willing to work for free, If you had a solution to help these teens and put food on your table and a nice income and provide for you family wouldnt you do it. Would you hold the kids in your school higher than your own families wealfare? Think about it !!!!!!
-
Oh please, any bozo can start a so-called "emotional growth" School or for that matter, hang up their shingle and call themselves a PROGRAM REFERRAL AGENT and fill their own program (or someone else's) with the children of parents unfortunate enough to fall into their web of deception.
As for all the kind, compassionate teen helpers, well, the truth is, that is the exception, NOT THE RULE.
Personally? I'd steer clear of any program that profits from instilling kids with the values and beliefs of a bunch of untrained, unprofessional, under-educated teen helper wannabees.
Family Counseling and Therapy is still the best and only viable option for parents-teens-families in crisis.
:roll:
-
On 2005-09-27 14:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
It's the money, stupid.
You are doing a dis-service to parents and teens by insisting the teen help industry is in the business, first and foremost, of helping teens.
:smokin:
"
Knock.Knock Hello:
Give me a list of industries that are not in it for the money !!!! Churchs,Schools even public school try to boast there income by raising taxes so they can attract richer people to move into their community so the teachers can get a raise. The head of the American Red Cross doesnt get paid $8/ hour.
Think about what you are saying !!!
Are you willing to work for free, If you had a solution to help these teens and put food on your table and a nice income and provide for you family wouldnt you do it. Would you hold the kids in your school higher than your own families wealfare? Think about it !!!!!!
"
God, how stupid can you be?
We are talking about fixing teens for profit.
Not repairing broken toasters.
Get a life, anon. Stop babbling/whining about something you clearly know nothing about.
GOT KOOLAID?
:grin:
-
God, how stupid can you be?
We are talking about fixing teens for profit.
Not repairing broken toasters.
Get a life, anon. Stop babbling/whining about something you clearly know nothing about.
GOT KOOLAID?
:grin:
"
Okay, lets clear it up. You dont like "Fixing teens for profit" So you must like:
A) Not fixing teens at all.
or
B) Fixing them for free (non profit)
or
C) Obstructing others from trying to do something.
I dont think any discussion which could potentially improve the way we help teens can be discarded as babbling or whinning, I think you are starting to see that making a profit is just a small part of it, it doesnt have to be the center piece (and thats okay) its a beginning.
Lastly -- I dont get the Koolaid thing, if its an insult I missed it (Shot too high).
-
It is so clear that the Fornits advocates are young adults who were so screwed up that no program could possibly help- there is probably serious brain damage or medical conditions. The parents must have given up, leaving these angry people to rage at parents who actually found good programs and were able to help their teens.
It is a shame that these poor people have to sit and rage from behind their computer screens. You must feel so powerless and unloved. It must be hard to hear about the way the reputable programs have healed many families and allowed the teens to work on some painful issues in a safe environment. It is so much easier for you to believe that they are all bad and that the leaders are only out to make a buck. I guess that makes the pain of your own pathetic lives easier to bear.
Sorry, but I attribute a lot of my current success and my good relationship with my parents and my friends to the program I attended. It wasn't perfect, and I hated a lot of things about it. I needed to be there- I was angry, unhappy and suicidal. I would not go to therapy at home, and if I did go, I lied to the therapist. I was stealing from people and selling drugs to make money. I was failing in school. My parents could not leave me alone in the house or I would steal prescription drugs or anything else I could get my hands on. My parents made mistakes, but they are not bad people. I was given a lot of privileges, and for many years I appreciated them. At a certain point I changed and decided to try drugs, started breaking every rule I could, and was seriously on the way to big trouble. I would not listen to anything my parents, counselors or teachers said. I was 16- my parents could not kick me out of the house.
What would you brilliant anti-program zealots suggest that my parents should have done? They were so upset that their own careers were in jeopardy. My younger brother was traumatized and scared that I would be dead. When the escorts came, I was pissed. I kicked a hole in the wall. Of course I wanted to stay home and keep using drugs, drinking and sleeping in my nice house. My parents stood there and cried as I was taken out of the house. It took me about 2 weeks in wilderness- and the drugs leaving my system- to understand what was going on. It took me about another week to understand that I had gotten myself there- it wasn't my parents' fault. They truly had no choice. I had used up all the other options. I think I would have been OK if I had come home after wilderness- most kids would not have been OK. Oh- I forgot to mention the total degenerates who I called my friends before I went away. I wish their parents could have done what mine did. It was too expensive for most of them. One of those kids is dead and one never finished high school. They were both great students before they turned 16. I had to go to a therapeutic boarding school so I would be away from the stuff at home for awhile longer and so I could fix the damage I had done to my transcript at school. I hated the school, but I made great friends and I learned some important things. I learned that it was OK to have problems and to talk about them. No one at home (friends) admitted having problems, being sad or worrying about the future. I learned how to have friends who really cared about me. The staff had some morons, but most of them were great. They worked really hard, lived in a shitty small town so that they could work at this school, and spent a lot of time with us on weekends and evenings. I still write to some of them. No one was ever abused. We got yelled at, we had consequences like writing assignments and some clean-up crews. Also, we weren't allowed to speak to certain other kids if we abused some privileges- like having relationships with girls. There were good reasons for these rules, which I didn't understand until much later. I never was good at following rules, and I had to learn by having consequences. I have been out for a few years, and I still challenge authority in many ways. I have good friends and don't do drugs. I am old enough to drink responsibly.
So-you should maybe get off your soapbox about these programs and find something to attack that you might actually know something about.
-
On 2005-09-27 17:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It is so clear that the Fornits advocates are young adults who were so screwed up that no program could possibly help- there is probably serious brain damage or medical conditions. The parents must have given up, leaving these angry people to rage at parents who actually found good programs and were able to help their teens.
It is a shame that these poor people have to sit and rage from behind their computer screens. You must feel so powerless and unloved. It must be hard to hear about the way the reputable programs have healed many families and allowed the teens to work on some painful issues in a safe environment. It is so much easier for you to believe that they are all bad and that the leaders are only out to make a buck. I guess that makes the pain of your own pathetic lives easier to bear.
Sorry, but I attribute a lot of my current success and my good relationship with my parents and my friends to the program I attended. It wasn't perfect, and I hated a lot of things about it. I needed to be there- I was angry, unhappy and suicidal. I would not go to therapy at home, and if I did go, I lied to the therapist. I was stealing from people and selling drugs to make money. I was failing in school. My parents could not leave me alone in the house or I would steal prescription drugs or anything else I could get my hands on. My parents made mistakes, but they are not bad people. I was given a lot of privileges, and for many years I appreciated them. At a certain point I changed and decided to try drugs, started breaking every rule I could, and was seriously on the way to big trouble. I would not listen to anything my parents, counselors or teachers said. I was 16- my parents could not kick me out of the house.
What would you brilliant anti-program zealots suggest that my parents should have done? They were so upset that their own careers were in jeopardy. My younger brother was traumatized and scared that I would be dead. When the escorts came, I was pissed. I kicked a hole in the wall. Of course I wanted to stay home and keep using drugs, drinking and sleeping in my nice house. My parents stood there and cried as I was taken out of the house. It took me about 2 weeks in wilderness- and the drugs leaving my system- to understand what was going on. It took me about another week to understand that I had gotten myself there- it wasn't my parents' fault. They truly had no choice. I had used up all the other options. I think I would have been OK if I had come home after wilderness- most kids would not have been OK. Oh- I forgot to mention the total degenerates who I called my friends before I went away. I wish their parents could have done what mine did. It was too expensive for most of them. One of those kids is dead and one never finished high school. They were both great students before they turned 16. I had to go to a therapeutic boarding school so I would be away from the stuff at home for awhile longer and so I could fix the damage I had done to my transcript at school. I hated the school, but I made great friends and I learned some important things. I learned that it was OK to have problems and to talk about them. No one at home (friends) admitted having problems, being sad or worrying about the future. I learned how to have friends who really cared about me. The staff had some morons, but most of them were great. They worked really hard, lived in a shitty small town so that they could work at this school, and spent a lot of time with us on weekends and evenings. I still write to some of them. No one was ever abused. We got yelled at, we had consequences like writing assignments and some clean-up crews. Also, we weren't allowed to speak to certain other kids if we abused some privileges- like having relationships with girls. There were good reasons for these rules, which I didn't understand until much later. I never was good at following rules, and I had to learn by having consequences. I have been out for a few years, and I still challenge authority in many ways. I have good friends and don't do drugs. I am old enough to drink responsibly.
So-you should maybe get off your soapbox about these programs and find something to attack that you might actually know something about."
Wow great post- Thank you. I am going to keep a copy on my hard drive as an inspiration. Its very frustrating sometimes with some of the angry responses we receive when asking for advice or trying to contribute in response to other parents questions.
-
"I hopd to a scorched earth policy. Destroy it all, now I dont mean blow it up to kill people, what I mean is one instance of abuse, the school is ellimated and every one working there, wheather they had anything to do with the abuse or not, is sent to prision"
OL - Would you do the same to, say, an army if one soldier abused someone? Or would you deal with the rogue and perhaps their supervisor? And if it were a church minister, would you do away with the church?
-
On 2005-09-27 17:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It is so clear that the Fornits advocates are young adults who were so screwed up that no program could possibly help- there is probably serious brain damage or medical conditions. The parents must have given up, leaving these angry people to rage at parents who actually found good programs and were able to help their teens.
It is a shame that these poor people have to sit and rage from behind their computer screens. You must feel so powerless and unloved. It must be hard to hear about the way the reputable programs have healed many families and allowed the teens to work on some painful issues in a safe environment. It is so much easier for you to believe that they are all bad and that the leaders are only out to make a buck. I guess that makes the pain of your own pathetic lives easier to bear.
Sorry, but I attribute a lot of my current success and my good relationship with my parents and my friends to the program I attended. It wasn't perfect, and I hated a lot of things about it. I needed to be there- I was angry, unhappy and suicidal. I would not go to therapy at home, and if I did go, I lied to the therapist. I was stealing from people and selling drugs to make money. I was failing in school. My parents could not leave me alone in the house or I would steal prescription drugs or anything else I could get my hands on. My parents made mistakes, but they are not bad people. I was given a lot of privileges, and for many years I appreciated them. At a certain point I changed and decided to try drugs, started breaking every rule I could, and was seriously on the way to big trouble. I would not listen to anything my parents, counselors or teachers said. I was 16- my parents could not kick me out of the house.
What would you brilliant anti-program zealots suggest that my parents should have done? They were so upset that their own careers were in jeopardy. My younger brother was traumatized and scared that I would be dead. When the escorts came, I was pissed. I kicked a hole in the wall. Of course I wanted to stay home and keep using drugs, drinking and sleeping in my nice house. My parents stood there and cried as I was taken out of the house. It took me about 2 weeks in wilderness- and the drugs leaving my system- to understand what was going on. It took me about another week to understand that I had gotten myself there- it wasn't my parents' fault. They truly had no choice. I had used up all the other options. I think I would have been OK if I had come home after wilderness- most kids would not have been OK. Oh- I forgot to mention the total degenerates who I called my friends before I went away. I wish their parents could have done what mine did. It was too expensive for most of them. One of those kids is dead and one never finished high school. They were both great students before they turned 16. I had to go to a therapeutic boarding school so I would be away from the stuff at home for awhile longer and so I could fix the damage I had done to my transcript at school. I hated the school, but I made great friends and I learned some important things. I learned that it was OK to have problems and to talk about them. No one at home (friends) admitted having problems, being sad or worrying about the future. I learned how to have friends who really cared about me. The staff had some morons, but most of them were great. They worked really hard, lived in a shitty small town so that they could work at this school, and spent a lot of time with us on weekends and evenings. I still write to some of them. No one was ever abused. We got yelled at, we had consequences like writing assignments and some clean-up crews. Also, we weren't allowed to speak to certain other kids if we abused some privileges- like having relationships with girls. There were good reasons for these rules, which I didn't understand until much later. I never was good at following rules, and I had to learn by having consequences. I have been out for a few years, and I still challenge authority in many ways. I have good friends and don't do drugs. I am old enough to drink responsibly.
So-you should maybe get off your soapbox about these programs and find something to attack that you might actually know something about."
Gee, thanks for sharing, so glad to hear your programization went well and that given the chance, you would submit to the same kind of coercive thought control as before.
Unfortunately, you are in the minority. Most adults, if given the chance, would never surrender their youth (or their minds) to THE PROGRAM.
Perhaps one day you will see why ... hopefully before you have children of your own (scary thought for even the most veteran residential treatment abuse survivors).
:smokin:
-
I don't know if these program parents are WWASPIES, PURE-ists, Wilderness Goons, or what ... but their lack of critical thinking skills is obvious.
Anybody know how long it takes for the effects of large group awareness training to wear off? Of course, some of these buffoons may just have a bug up their ass b/c Fornits is not exactly PROGRAM FRIENDLY and that's got to hurt their recruiting efforts. LOL ... ain't it grand?!
Either way, the teen help industry is a cancer growing on this nation and like it or not, will be reined in with federal regulations following the GAO investigation.
See Jane (teen helper) Run.
:wave:
-
"so glad to hear your programization went well and that given the chance, you would submit to the same kind of coercive thought control as before."
Your response is so predictable. I can assure you- I am the furthest thing from a programmed teen that you could find. I am just mature enough to look back and know that I was on a destructive course that no one around me could possibly stop.
Why are you so threatened and upset whenever someone says that maybe programs can do a lot of good? Don't you think it is pretty stupid for you to insist that absolutely no one can benefit from ANY emotional growth program?
I really hope you can find a life outside of this group of nit-wits. Good luck to you.
-
On 2005-09-27 18:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
""so glad to hear your programization went well and that given the chance, you would submit to the same kind of coercive thought control as before."
Your response is so predictable. I can assure you- I am the furthest thing from a programmed teen that you could find. I am just mature enough to look back and know that I was on a destructive course that no one around me could possibly stop.
Why are you so threatened and upset whenever someone says that maybe programs can do a lot of good? Don't you think it is pretty stupid for you to insist that absolutely no one can benefit from ANY emotional growth program?
I really hope you can find a life outside of this group of nit-wits. Good luck to you. "
Listen pal, you are to be pitied, not taken to task for spewing your programized bullshit on Fornits. Take it to ST ... home of the struggling parents who have nothing better to do then sit around bemoaning how used and abused they are as a result of being the parent of a teenager.
Tell me, did your parents cry when they got back their new, improved teen with the emotional IQ of
a 6 year old?
:roll:
-
Listen pal, you are to be pitied, not taken to task for spewing your programized bullshit on Fornits. Take it to ST ... home of the struggling parents who have nothing better to do then sit around bemoaning how used and abused they are as a result of being the parent of a teenager.
Tell me, did your parents cry when they got back their new, improved teen with the emotional IQ of
a 6 year old?
:roll: "
Wow I cant believe it, I think you are jealous of that person. What else would generate that much hatred towards someone who is just experssing their experience. I am now curious, did it not work for you or did you leave your program early, please tell us what causes this blindness.
-
Either way, the teen help industry is a cancer growing on this nation and like it or not, will be reined in with federal regulations following the GAO investigation.
See Jane (teen helper) Run.
:wave: "
That is exactly what is needed. If the schools become regulated then the parents will feel more at ease about sending their kids there. Yhe environment will be safer and the feds typically require schools (which are regulated) to track the effects of their treatment of the kids so that the success or failures can be easily seen. The better schools will rise to the top and the others will either have to improve or go out of business. This is good news for kids and parents, thanks.
-
On 2005-09-27 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
God, how stupid can you be?
We are talking about fixing teens for profit.
Not repairing broken toasters.
Get a life, anon. Stop babbling/whining about something you clearly know nothing about.
GOT KOOLAID?
:grin:
"
Okay, lets clear it up. You dont like "Fixing teens for profit" So you must like:
A) Not fixing teens at all.
or
B) Fixing them for free (non profit)
or
C) Obstructing others from trying to do something.
I dont think any discussion which could potentially improve the way we help teens can be discarded as babbling or whinning, I think you are starting to see that making a profit is just a small part of it, it doesnt have to be the center piece (and thats okay) its a beginning.
Yes. I think what the anon who initiated this line of discussion was saying was a little different from that. Of course, everyone makes money and wants to make more. No shame in that. But you're a damned fool and ought to be ashamed if you enter into any agreement w/ anybody for any reason w/o considering the influence money works on the deal. The salesman or other dependent on that cash flow may be telling you the truth or they may be telling you whatever will take out your check book. You must consider that.
Lastly -- I dont get the Koolaid thing, if its an insult I missed it (Shot too high)."
Well, this goes to another important aspect of the industry. Jim Jones had good intentions, I'm sure. He was trying to save the world till he made himself unwelcome and relocated to So America. But he was obviously a nut case w/ a god complex. And yet 800 or so people were impressed w/ him enough to drink poisoned kool aid on his command (those who weren't willing were forcibly poisoned by the more thoroughly brainwashed followers).
Aside from your personal, subjective impression of the people you're dealing with, you should also consider the what they're proposing. Sure, the YMCA makes money and their executives live well. But they have never once suggested that I trust them w/ my daughter while she's not permitted any contact w/ the outside world for a long period of time.
That alone makes a huge difference! In my view, anybody telling you it's good for your kid to be isolated from the world is bullshitting. More often than not, they're bullshitting themselves even more.
Part of the problem really is parents ta day! By strong arming the situation using a program, escorts and such, you're bringing strangers in for leverege in what is a private family matter. That alone should give pause. How would you feel if your kid called CPS on you? Think you'd ever get over it? Have you any idea how effortlessly they can complicate your entire family's lives w/ just one phone call?
But you want to hear that your kid w/ whom you're at odds is really as bad as you say. You want to be the victim and you want commisseration. This would be true whether the crisis is real or imagined. And the friendly, compassionate man or woman on the other end of the line knows this and has a couple of strong motives to feed your need. One is money. The other is the same impulse that drives all the rage against ppl who speak candidly about the industry. They, themselves, did this to their kids. And they need to believe it was justified because they've already realized it was horrible.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer
-
On 2005-09-27 18:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Listen pal, you are to be pitied, not taken to task for spewing your programized bullshit on Fornits. Take it to ST ... home of the struggling parents who have nothing better to do then sit around bemoaning how used and abused they are as a result of being the parent of a teenager.
Tell me, did your parents cry when they got back their new, improved teen with the emotional IQ of
a 6 year old?
:smokin:
-
Are you a narcissist or sociopath? Your thinking is seriously disordered.
:smokin: "
Thanks for noticing
Answer: A little of both, I have been told, (mostly socio) but high functioning (or is that functioning high) anyway seems like I am with good company.
-
Antigen I kind of down play the money aspect of the whole thing because it isnt alot to some people, but to the people receiving the money is a different story. Large sums of money can lead to some desperate people with not so good intentions and your child in the middle, good point, I missed that one.
Yes I remember Jim Jones and the Koolaid, thanks for the info. I guess I wasnt being complimented in the previous post
-
On 2005-09-27 19:18:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-09-27 15:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
God, how stupid can you be?
We are talking about fixing teens for profit.
Not repairing broken toasters.
Get a life, anon. Stop babbling/whining about something you clearly know nothing about.
GOT KOOLAID?
:grin:
"
Okay, lets clear it up. You dont like "Fixing teens for profit" So you must like:
A) Not fixing teens at all.
or
B) Fixing them for free (non profit)
or
C) Obstructing others from trying to do something.
I dont think any discussion which could potentially improve the way we help teens can be discarded as babbling or whinning, I think you are starting to see that making a profit is just a small part of it, it doesnt have to be the center piece (and thats okay) its a beginning.
Yes. I think what the anon who initiated this line of discussion was saying was a little different from that. Of course, everyone makes money and wants to make more. No shame in that. But you're a damned fool and ought to be ashamed if you enter into any agreement w/ anybody for any reason w/o considering the influence money works on the deal. The salesman or other dependent on that cash flow may be telling you the truth or they may be telling you whatever will take out your check book. You must consider that.
Lastly -- I dont get the Koolaid thing, if its an insult I missed it (Shot too high)."
Well, this goes to another important aspect of the industry. Jim Jones had good intentions, I'm sure. He was trying to save the world till he made himself unwelcome and relocated to So America. But he was obviously a nut case w/ a god complex. And yet 800 or so people were impressed w/ him enough to drink poisoned kool aid on his command (those who weren't willing were forcibly poisoned by the more thoroughly brainwashed followers).
Aside from your personal, subjective impression of the people you're dealing with, you should also consider the what they're proposing. Sure, the YMCA makes money and their executives live well. But they have never once suggested that I trust them w/ my daughter while she's not permitted any contact w/ the outside world for a long period of time.
That alone makes a huge difference! In my view, anybody telling you it's good for your kid to be isolated from the world is bullshitting. More often than not, they're bullshitting themselves even more.
Part of the problem really is parents ta day! By strong arming the situation using a program, escorts and such, you're bringing strangers in for leverege in what is a private family matter. That alone should give pause. How would you feel if your kid called CPS on you? Think you'd ever get over it? Have you any idea how effortlessly they can complicate your entire family's lives w/ just one phone call?
But you want to hear that your kid w/ whom you're at odds is really as bad as you say. You want to be the victim and you want commisseration. This would be true whether the crisis is real or imagined. And the friendly, compassionate man or woman on the other end of the line knows this and has a couple of strong motives to feed your need. One is money. The other is the same impulse that drives all the rage against ppl who speak candidly about the industry. They, themselves, did this to their kids. And they need to believe it was justified because they've already realized it was horrible.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer
"
Thanks Ginger, always a pleasure reading your posts which are not just enlightening but right on the M.O.N.E.Y. (pun intended!)
Excellent quote following your post, fits the topic at hand beautifully.
Peace,
:grin:
-
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-
On 2005-09-27 05:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Atomic Ant- I must have missed the post where you listed your credentials. You know, the ones that would allow you to opine that all the parents who rely on programs are terrible and abusive parents. I am so envious of your crystal ball that permitted you to know so much about every family.
Actually, you are blowing all this crap out your ass, but that seems to be the requirement for many posters on this board."
Sarcasm is a sign of immaturity. My Dad told me that when I was a teenager. Children often resort to sarcasm when criticizing something. Are you a child, or just immature.
My credentials concerning raising children and assisting troubled-teens are just as sound as most of the people who run programs or work in them. In other words, none whatsoever. Oh wait, I'm parent. I have some experience.
The only credential needed in this analysis is common sense.
-
On 2005-09-27 20:45:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
On 2005-09-27 05:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Atomic Ant- I must have missed the post where you listed your credentials. You know, the ones that would allow you to opine that all the parents who rely on programs are terrible and abusive parents. I am so envious of your crystal ball that permitted you to know so much about every family.
Actually, you are blowing all this crap out your ass, but that seems to be the requirement for many posters on this board."
Sarcasm is a sign of immaturity. My Dad told me that when I was a teenager. Children often resort to sarcasm when criticizing something. Are you a child, or just immature.
My credentials concerning raising children and assisting troubled-teens are just as sound as most of the people who run programs or work in them. In other words, none whatsoever. Oh wait, I'm parent. I have some experience.
The only credential needed in this analysis is common sense. "
As obnoxious as some of these program parents and teens are, it must be noted that few, if any, have any common sense left once they commit themselves to exchanging their critical thinking skills for some of that magical child dust.
Overall, I'd say the average emotional IQ of these program parents and teens is about what you would expect in a 5-6 year old child.
Sad, isn't it? Adults acting like children and children being robbed of their youth by people who call themselves "teen helpers".
:smokin:
"To feel you all around me, would be the sweetest thing, would make me sing, ahhhh but I may as well try and catch the wind" - Bob Dylan
-
On 2005-09-27 17:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It is so clear that the Fornits advocates are young adults who were so screwed up that no program could possibly help- there is probably serious brain damage or medical conditions. The parents must have given up, leaving these angry people to rage at parents who actually found good programs and were able to help their teens.
It is a shame that these poor people have to sit and rage from behind their computer screens. You must feel so powerless and unloved. It must be hard to hear about the way the reputable programs have healed many families and allowed the teens to work on some painful issues in a safe environment. It is so much easier for you to believe that they are all bad and that the leaders are only out to make a buck. I guess that makes the pain of your own pathetic lives easier to bear.
Sorry, but I attribute a lot of my current success and my good relationship with my parents and my friends to the program I attended. It wasn't perfect, and I hated a lot of things about it. I needed to be there- I was angry, unhappy and suicidal. I would not go to therapy at home, and if I did go, I lied to the therapist. I was stealing from people and selling drugs to make money. I was failing in school. My parents could not leave me alone in the house or I would steal prescription drugs or anything else I could get my hands on. My parents made mistakes, but they are not bad people. I was given a lot of privileges, and for many years I appreciated them. At a certain point I changed and decided to try drugs, started breaking every rule I could, and was seriously on the way to big trouble. I would not listen to anything my parents, counselors or teachers said. I was 16- my parents could not kick me out of the house.
What would you brilliant anti-program zealots suggest that my parents should have done? They were so upset that their own careers were in jeopardy. My younger brother was traumatized and scared that I would be dead. When the escorts came, I was pissed. I kicked a hole in the wall. Of course I wanted to stay home and keep using drugs, drinking and sleeping in my nice house. My parents stood there and cried as I was taken out of the house. It took me about 2 weeks in wilderness- and the drugs leaving my system- to understand what was going on. It took me about another week to understand that I had gotten myself there- it wasn't my parents' fault. They truly had no choice. I had used up all the other options. I think I would have been OK if I had come home after wilderness- most kids would not have been OK. Oh- I forgot to mention the total degenerates who I called my friends before I went away. I wish their parents could have done what mine did. It was too expensive for most of them. One of those kids is dead and one never finished high school. They were both great students before they turned 16. I had to go to a therapeutic boarding school so I would be away from the stuff at home for awhile longer and so I could fix the damage I had done to my transcript at school. I hated the school, but I made great friends and I learned some important things. I learned that it was OK to have problems and to talk about them. No one at home (friends) admitted having problems, being sad or worrying about the future. I learned how to have friends who really cared about me. The staff had some morons, but most of them were great. They worked really hard, lived in a shitty small town so that they could work at this school, and spent a lot of time with us on weekends and evenings. I still write to some of them. No one was ever abused. We got yelled at, we had consequences like writing assignments and some clean-up crews. Also, we weren't allowed to speak to certain other kids if we abused some privileges- like having relationships with girls. There were good reasons for these rules, which I didn't understand until much later. I never was good at following rules, and I had to learn by having consequences. I have been out for a few years, and I still challenge authority in many ways. I have good friends and don't do drugs. I am old enough to drink responsibly.
So-you should maybe get off your soapbox about these programs and find something to attack that you might actually know something about."
I have read so many accounts just like yours on this site that I question if the story is real or just made up. There are just too many cliches and it all sounds so canned and generic, like the testimonials on the infomercials on TV where people say how many pounds they lost or how much money they made. Meanwhile, those of us with experience and common sense are fully aware that for most people these programs (referring to the infomercials) are not effective. We don't buy them. Someone must or they would not exist.
For the sake of argument, however, I will treat the story as real and genuine. I will not take the bait of the inflammatory tone and anger and the attacks like "So you should maybe get off your soapbox about these programs and find something to attack that you might actually know something about." It is clear that many people at Fornits have been in programs. They do know about them.
I will not attempt to undermine your belief that the program helped turn your life around. Perhaps you would have grown up and changed on your own, perhaps you would have died of an overdose. No one can say. It is pointless to argue the case either way.
I do not dismiss the stories of abuse by others on this board, either. There are many stories of abuse and there are news articles to back them up.
I am still 100% against these programs. Even if there were zero deaths, I would still be against them. Even if they worked for 100% of the kids sent into them, I would still be against them. In fact, the more effective the program, the more I am alarmed. Do you see the danger here?
The danger is that the more effective these techniques become, the more potential there is for widespread abuse. If you can take a teen to a facility and completely unhinge and rearrange their world view this effectively, then what stops the government or others from using the same techniques on anyone that disagrees with them? The answer is, of course, nothing. They do. In the 1960s, China used these same techniques to re-educate large numbers of its population. The Unification Church and other cults depend on these techniques to keep their flocks full. The self-help gurus such as est, Lifespring, The Forum, et al, use these techniques to convince people that they have all the answers to all their problems.
I find it both scary and objectionable that a person or group of people feel they have the right to alter someone else's psychological make-up so completely and so against the subject's will. To abduct someone and by force take them to a facility where they will be isolated from family, friends, and community; to force them to renounce everything they know and believe in and accept only the program's way of thinking, to hold them against their will indefinitely until they finally succumb to the new way of thinking, is something out of an Orwellian nightmare. This form of so-called therapy is abuse in and of itself. I don't have to hear about the blatant physical abuse to be horrified that a child (or anyone) could be subjected to such treatment in what is supposed to be a fair and open society. It is a violation of basic human rights. Everyone has the right to their own thoughts, their own opinions, and their own ideas. Everyone has the right to self-determination.
I don't have the answers for solving the problems of troubled teens. I don't need to be an expert on adolescence. I don't need credentials, I don't need experience with programs, to know that treating someone in a cruel and inhumane way is just wrong. It just is. Like murder, it is just intrinsically wrong. To rape someone's mind is no less wrong than to rape their body. To send someone to a private prison without due process of law is no less wrong than chaining them to the radiator in their room.
-
"I find it both scary and objectionable that a person or group of people feel they have the right to alter someone else's psychological make-up so completely and so against the subject's will. To abduct someone and by force take them to a facility where they will be isolated from family, friends, and community; to force them to renounce everything they know and believe in and accept only the program's way of thinking, to hold them against their will indefinitely until they finally succumb to the new way of thinking, is something out of an Orwellian nightmare. This form of so-called therapy is abuse in and of itself. I don't have to hear about the blatant physical abuse to be horrified that a child (or anyone) could be subjected to such treatment in what is supposed to be a fair and open society. It is a violation of basic human rights. Everyone has the right to their own thoughts, their own opinions, and their own ideas. Everyone has the right to self-determination."
I see no connection between your statements and the program I attended. It was not a "facility" and there was no holding of anyone against their will-at least not at the school. I guess you could say wilderness kept you against your will.
You are calling the parents and program graduates immature? OK.....hmmmm....thanks for the humor.
-
On 2005-09-28 05:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
""I find it both scary and objectionable that a person or group of people feel they have the right to alter someone else's psychological make-up so completely and so against the subject's will. To abduct someone and by force take them to a facility where they will be isolated from family, friends, and community; to force them to renounce everything they know and believe in and accept only the program's way of thinking, to hold them against their will indefinitely until they finally succumb to the new way of thinking, is something out of an Orwellian nightmare. This form of so-called therapy is abuse in and of itself. I don't have to hear about the blatant physical abuse to be horrified that a child (or anyone) could be subjected to such treatment in what is supposed to be a fair and open society. It is a violation of basic human rights. Everyone has the right to their own thoughts, their own opinions, and their own ideas. Everyone has the right to self-determination."
I see no connection between your statements and the program I attended. It was not a "facility" and there was no holding of anyone against their will-at least not at the school. I guess you could say wilderness kept you against your will.
You are calling the parents and program graduates immature? OK.....hmmmm....thanks for the humor.
"
This isn't Struggling Teens where naming a program is taboo. What "school" did you attend? How old were you when you were enrolled? How long did you stay? Did you have any say in whether you wanted to attend this school? Depending upon the school, I will reserve further questions/comments until I know it's name and the answers to the questions above. Most of us are very familiar with the components of the different specialty schools and programs for troubled youth.
:smokin:
-
I am going to decline to name my program because from what I have observed on this forum, it doesn't make sense to allow myself to be identified. I was almost 17 when I entered (wilderness before that for a few months). It was a relatively new program (2 years old when I entered) and still had some things to improve upon. The post-graduation success rate for any of these programs is not good- I'll give you that. But it is worth a try for many kids. I did not have real drug issues- the kids who do tend to relapse post-program a lot more frequently. I was also a lot smarter than a lot of the kids, which meant I really wasn't interested in finishing out my high school years at that place. I was there for under a year- my parents and I thought I was ready to move on. I did not buy-in to much of the stuff at the school and I was constantly in trouble, so don't accuse me of being programmed. I wasn't allowed to talk to any touring parents.
Also- there are some really screwed up kids in these programs. I'm not sure you guys realize that. There are kids dealing with adoption issues who have totally freaked out, there are girls who don't have any boundaries with guys, there are kids who snorted aspirin, antidepressants and anything else they could get their hands on. At the school, they had to take away our sugar because kids were snorting it! One kid got kicked out of his boarding school for receiving drugs in the mail packed in peanut butter jars. ALL these kids had been through every kind of therapy imaginable. Yep-some of the parents were truly awful and had messed the kids up. Most, though, were just normal parents who didn't have a clue how to help their kids.
This is my experience- not many kids left the school I attended with real negative feelings. They may have thought a lot of it was bullshit, but it was never abusive and it really was a pretty cushy place compared to a drug treatment center or something like that. A lot of kids had guitars and other instruments, and there were a lot of art projects going on. We could take AP courses and many of the academic teachers were amazingly good. Some didn't stick around, because year-round teaching in that kind of place isn't the easiest job. We got taken to town for medical appointments or to take SATs.
All in all- even though I hated it, I don't know what else would have worked for me.
-
On 2005-09-27 23:43:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
On 2005-09-27 17:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It is so clear that the Fornits advocates are young adults who were so screwed up that no program could possibly help- there is probably serious brain damage or medical conditions. The parents must have given up, leaving these angry people to rage at parents who actually found good programs and were able to help their teens.
It is a shame that these poor people have to sit and rage from behind their computer screens. You must feel so powerless and unloved. It must be hard to hear about the way the reputable programs have healed many families and allowed the teens to work on some painful issues in a safe environment. It is so much easier for you to believe that they are all bad and that the leaders are only out to make a buck. I guess that makes the pain of your own pathetic lives easier to bear.
Sorry, but I attribute a lot of my current success and my good relationship with my parents and my friends to the program I attended. It wasn't perfect, and I hated a lot of things about it. I needed to be there- I was angry, unhappy and suicidal. I would not go to therapy at home, and if I did go, I lied to the therapist. I was stealing from people and selling drugs to make money. I was failing in school. My parents could not leave me alone in the house or I would steal prescription drugs or anything else I could get my hands on. My parents made mistakes, but they are not bad people. I was given a lot of privileges, and for many years I appreciated them. At a certain point I changed and decided to try drugs, started breaking every rule I could, and was seriously on the way to big trouble. I would not listen to anything my parents, counselors or teachers said. I was 16- my parents could not kick me out of the house.
What would you brilliant anti-program zealots suggest that my parents should have done? They were so upset that their own careers were in jeopardy. My younger brother was traumatized and scared that I would be dead. When the escorts came, I was pissed. I kicked a hole in the wall. Of course I wanted to stay home and keep using drugs, drinking and sleeping in my nice house. My parents stood there and cried as I was taken out of the house. It took me about 2 weeks in wilderness- and the drugs leaving my system- to understand what was going on. It took me about another week to understand that I had gotten myself there- it wasn't my parents' fault. They truly had no choice. I had used up all the other options. I think I would have been OK if I had come home after wilderness- most kids would not have been OK. Oh- I forgot to mention the total degenerates who I called my friends before I went away. I wish their parents could have done what mine did. It was too expensive for most of them. One of those kids is dead and one never finished high school. They were both great students before they turned 16. I had to go to a therapeutic boarding school so I would be away from the stuff at home for awhile longer and so I could fix the damage I had done to my transcript at school. I hated the school, but I made great friends and I learned some important things. I learned that it was OK to have problems and to talk about them. No one at home (friends) admitted having problems, being sad or worrying about the future. I learned how to have friends who really cared about me. The staff had some morons, but most of them were great. They worked really hard, lived in a shitty small town so that they could work at this school, and spent a lot of time with us on weekends and evenings. I still write to some of them. No one was ever abused. We got yelled at, we had consequences like writing assignments and some clean-up crews. Also, we weren't allowed to speak to certain other kids if we abused some privileges- like having relationships with girls. There were good reasons for these rules, which I didn't understand until much later. I never was good at following rules, and I had to learn by having consequences. I have been out for a few years, and I still challenge authority in many ways. I have good friends and don't do drugs. I am old enough to drink responsibly.
So-you should maybe get off your soapbox about these programs and find something to attack that you might actually know something about."
I have read so many accounts just like yours on this site that I question if the story is real or just made up. There are just too many cliches and it all sounds so canned and generic, like the testimonials on the infomercials on TV where people say how many pounds they lost or how much money they made. Meanwhile, those of us with experience and common sense are fully aware that for most people these programs (referring to the infomercials) are not effective. We don't buy them. Someone must or they would not exist.
For the sake of argument, however, I will treat the story as real and genuine. I will not take the bait of the inflammatory tone and anger and the attacks like "So you should maybe get off your soapbox about these programs and find something to attack that you might actually know something about." It is clear that many people at Fornits have been in programs. They do know about them.
I will not attempt to undermine your belief that the program helped turn your life around. Perhaps you would have grown up and changed on your own, perhaps you would have died of an overdose. No one can say. It is pointless to argue the case either way.
I do not dismiss the stories of abuse by others on this board, either. There are many stories of abuse and there are news articles to back them up.
I am still 100% against these programs. Even if there were zero deaths, I would still be against them. Even if they worked for 100% of the kids sent into them, I would still be against them. In fact, the more effective the program, the more I am alarmed. Do you see the danger here?
The danger is that the more effective these techniques become, the more potential there is for widespread abuse. If you can take a teen to a facility and completely unhinge and rearrange their world view this effectively, then what stops the government or others from using the same techniques on anyone that disagrees with them? The answer is, of course, nothing. They do. In the 1960s, China used these same techniques to re-educate large numbers of its population. The Unification Church and other cults depend on these techniques to keep their flocks full. The self-help gurus such as est, Lifespring, The Forum, et al, use these techniques to convince people that they have all the answers to all their problems.
I find it both scary and objectionable that a person or group of people feel they have the right to alter someone else's psychological make-up so completely and so against the subject's will. To abduct someone and by force take them to a facility where they will be isolated from family, friends, and community; to force them to renounce everything they know and believe in and accept only the program's way of thinking, to hold them against their will indefinitely until they finally succumb to the new way of thinking, is something out of an Orwellian nightmare. This form of so-called therapy is abuse in and of itself. I don't have to hear about the blatant physical abuse to be horrified that a child (or anyone) could be subjected to such treatment in what is supposed to be a fair and open society. It is a violation of basic human rights. Everyone has the right to their own thoughts, their own opinions, and their own ideas. Everyone has the right to self-determination.
I don't have the answers for solving the problems of troubled teens. I don't need to be an expert on adolescence. I don't need credentials, I don't need experience with programs, to know that treating someone in a cruel and inhumane way is just wrong. It just is. Like murder, it is just intrinsically wrong. To rape someone's mind is no less wrong than to rape their body. To send someone to a private prison without due process of law is no less wrong than chaining them to the radiator in their room.
"
JSA: How refreshing! Thanks for at last admitting that the problem here is a difference in philosophies.
You know the BS you write about abuse at programs isn't true--unless one accepts the new, improved definition of abuse, a la fornits. Why do you get to remodel the English language to suit your hunger for attention? Man, that white horse you spend so much time on is looking awfully lame.
-
:nworthy: Great post!
On 2005-09-27 23:43:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
There are just too many cliches and it all sounds so canned and generic, like the testimonials on the infomercials on TV where people say how many pounds they lost or how much money they made. Meanwhile, those of us with experience and common sense are fully aware that for most people these programs (referring to the infomercials) are not effective. We don't buy them. Someone must or they would not exist.
I don't doubt that this anon is a real kid and believes everything they're saying. But your reference to bogus infomercials made me chuckle. I read somewhere not long ago about an investigation of these rackets. The usual scam is to get people who are normally very fit and attractive but who are temporarily overweight due to medical issues. They photograph them at their worst, wait 6 months or a year then do the after pictures and testimonials.
Same scam, down to the letter. Exctpt one thing; their hired models know the scam. These kids and parents usually do not. I think it's significant that the founder of Herbalife was a CEDU graduate who died of a drug overdose (combined w/ his own products) in his home. Evidently, he bought into his own bullshit too. Sad as hell, eh?
The danger is that the more effective these techniques become, the more potential there is for widespread abuse. If you can take a teen to a facility and completely unhinge and rearrange their world view this effectively, then what stops the government or others from using the same techniques on anyone that disagrees with them? The answer is, of course, nothing. They do. In the 1960s, China used these same techniques to re-educate large numbers of its population. The Unification Church and other cults depend on these techniques to keep their flocks full. The self-help gurus such as est, Lifespring, The Forum, et al, use these techniques to convince people that they have all the answers to all their problems.
I find it both scary and objectionable that a person or group of people feel they have the right to alter someone else's psychological make-up so completely and so against the subject's will.
That is exactly my concern too. What originally got my attention years ago was something Jeb Büsh did just after he took office as governor of Florida. He promised $100 million in public funding for juvenile drug rehab. I remembered when Nancy Reagan took Princess Di on a tour of Straight, Inc. And I knew the Büsh/Reagan political machine was one and the same. So I had to look, like checking for the boogie man under the bed.
Alarmingly, I found what I was looking for. Anybody who wants to get all the greusome details can take advantage of Wes Fager's extensive research at http://TheStraights.com/ (http://TheStraights.com/)
I don't know much about what the CEDU/WWASP branch has done w/ their political currency except that they invest a whole lot of it in Republican causes. I can guess that if one were to thoroughly look into it, you'd find a pattern of preference for what we sometimes call the "extra chromosome" Republicans or Religious Reich or Jacobians or Neocons.
But, while I was busy putting the whole thing behind me, making a family and all, the Seed/Straight branch has been busy, busy, busy! They've established a plethora of organizations all geared toward promotion, public funding and legal mandate of their world view, products and services.
I remember the discussion among drug policy reformers after 9/11. The concensus among the celeritys and leaders in the movement was that we should take a vacation and go help out the victims of that disaster; that this inner family squabble could and would keep till after the immediate crisis and that we should all pull together as the one nation that we are. I was a dissenter in that view because I know how completely deranged these people are. And, shaw' nuff, the Super Bowl comes around and these lunatics had invested several million on the most expensive advertising available in the market, all geared toward placing international political terrorism at the feet of 13yo suburban pot smokers.
While there was some degree of shocked criticizm in the media over this, I think they missed the point entirely when they described it as callous capitalism. Nothing could be further from the truth. You must understand that the core cadre of drug war proponants have, themselves, put their own kids and grandkids through their programs. Moreover, unlike the WWASP type programs, parents in the Seed/Straight line are required to attend weekly or (for out of town families) monthly meetings structured roughly like an AA meeting w/ the kids and to provide daily lodging (w/ locks or alarms on the doors), food, transportation and total enforcement of all of the rules and dogma to those kids while they're in the program.
It's nothing at all like cold, cynical profiteering. Anything but. It's more like manic, passionate zealotry. These people can and will justify any gross abuse in what they view as the cause of saving the world.
Just one little flaw in that outlook. None of the elements of this crisis to which they've dedicated their lives and souls and our public policy and funding is actually a crisis at all. Drugs and rebellious kids have been with us always. For the past 30 years or so, they've gone balls to the walls promoting their cure. We now spend a documented $73 billion annually on domestic drug policy enforcement and untold (litterally... much of it is black budget spending) billions on international drug policy enforcement.
For all that we can show zero improvement by any reasonable measure. But the people driving this toughlove hategroup movement are completely impervious to any kind of sensible, reasonable, logical thinking on the topic. The only answer they can fathom is to redouble our efforts. In a very real sense, they're addicted to it.
If they really were just an ineffectual weird little cult, I wouldn't bother worrying about it. But they're not. They're heavily invested in public policy focused on coercing the rest of us to take even more of their medicine and to pay for it. I think that if most Americans understood just how crazy these people are they'd all have to go out and get real jobs. Just imagine the tax savings if we could only get this monkey off our backs.The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein
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On 2005-09-28 06:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yep-some of the parents were truly awful and had messed the kids up. Most, though, were just normal parents who didn't have a clue how to help their kids.
....
All in all- even though I hated it, I don't know what else would have worked for me."
Well, here's my take on it. Those normal parents who didn't have a clue how to help their kids are, for the most part, over reacting. And yet I don't really blame them entirely. We all were raised during or after the Nixon admin. Then came the Reagans/Büsh admin, who's leading "first lady" cause was taken entirely from Straight, Inc. founder Betty Sembler's cause.
Compare your teenage years to what was going on in the `30's and `40's. I can tell you a little about that based on what my father and his sisters have told me. His father was the chief of police while his uncle was the mayor and the most powerful bootlegger in the area. There were all the same things going on then, but the rules were a little different. Alcohol was illegal, except for medicinal/personal use. We still have the same laws on the books and in practice for personal production. I think we're allowed something like 40 gallons per year per adult in residence. You can look it up on any homebrewing website. Cannabis was legal. That's right, legal for anyone of any age to grow, purchase, sell, possess and use. Heroin was marketed by Bayer Pharmaceuticals for the same price per dose as Aspirin.
At the same time, there were rapes, date rapes, teen pregnancy, vandalism, burglaries, shiftless, dangerous bullies and all the rest. And there were some phenominally bad parents and some heroically good ones. Most fell somewhere in between, just like now. But there was just no broadly held perception that anyone needed professional help in raising kids, troubled or otherwise. Families, communities, churches and other spontanious, traditional entities did all of that for free as a matter of course.
Now we've got a multibillion dollar public policy effort ongoing for decades and augmented by the private reform school industry. But are we showing any better results than we have historically? I don't think so. And I do think the methods employed by this industry do an awful lot of harm to individuals and families in the course of failing utterly to deliver any meaningful results.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.
--George Bernard Shaw, Irish-born English playwright
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Well- I know I needed help that I couldn't get at home or from my community at home. I think the most important thing was the feedback I got from my peers at the program. Unlike what is claimed on this forum, our group sessions were frequently excellent. I refused to buy into the crap about really dumping on another student just to make myself look like I was making progress, and I wouldn't rat out kids who broke rules. What was good, though, was my peers calling me on my bullshit and my arrogance. Even the hugs were good for me, because I was too tough back at home to ever hug anyone. What the therapeutic process did for me, both in wilderness and at the school, was allow me to let go of a lot of anger and other crap. I didn't have to demean other people to make myself feel good.
Antigen- it isn't the same world as it was in other decades. The moral decline, the electronic communication, the increase in wealth- all of these contribute to the too much-too soon issues today's teens face. More couples are divorced, more mothers work outside the home, the pressure to achieve is more intense.
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Good post., Anon. A few positive words here: Ginger, I don't agree with a lot of your posts, but you do show a willingness to consider thoughtfully the other views on the forum.
:nworthy:
I agree with this last one from anonymous, and would like to add a thought: Whether you think the program approach is abuse, or just think it's not a good idea in general, the piece that seems pretty important to me is the reason for their existence. They couldn't be there without a need and I can tell you, from a program that has a long waiting list, no one has to create a market here. Kids have always rebelled--healthy behavior. Kids have always needed to find their own way---also healthy. But mistakes now are a lot costlier than they were a generation or two ago: AIDS, death by meth, capital punishment as imposed by gangs, parenting by playstation---This is not your grandma's adolescent angst. Trial and error looks pretty scary when your kid goes from being a decent kid to being a meth prostitute in three months.
Sometimes interrupting the destruction by removing the kid from all that is the first step. It may be that the thousands of parents sending their kids to programs reflects an epidemic of lousy parenting, but I think that's kind of a stretch. At the same time, there MUST be bad things going on, or why all the stories? Maybe the best thing would be for people to admit that parents today--many of whom really did fall short, but are looking for ways to recover their families and do better--may need extraordinary means of support, and allow that programs--well run, with extensive family involvement--may be a part of the solution.
:grin:
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On 2005-09-28 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well- I know I needed help that I couldn't get at home or from my community at home. I think the most important thing was the feedback I got from my peers at the program. Unlike what is claimed on this forum, our group sessions were frequently excellent. I refused to buy into the crap about really dumping on another student just to make myself look like I was making progress, and I wouldn't rat out kids who broke rules. What was good, though, was my peers calling me on my bullshit and my arrogance. Even the hugs were good for me, because I was too tough back at home to ever hug anyone. What the therapeutic process did for me, both in wilderness and at the school, was allow me to let go of a lot of anger and other crap. I didn't have to demean other people to make myself feel good.
Antigen- it isn't the same world as it was in other decades. The moral decline, the electronic communication, the increase in wealth- all of these contribute to the too much-too soon issues today's teens face. More couples are divorced, more mothers work outside the home, the pressure to achieve is more intense. "
trolls are out in force!
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On 2005-09-28 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well- I know I needed help that I couldn't get at home or from my community at home. I think the most important thing was the feedback I got from my peers at the program.
I'll buy that. In fact it reminds me of an interesting tid-bit I ran accross recently. This link should drop you into the middle of a page right at the relavent spot. If not, search on "patty-cake" to find it.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... patty_cake (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#patty_cake)
Here's a narrow quote from that reference:
Now, to be fair, all of the treatment programs did score a percentage point or two better than the control group which got no treatment at all, which seems to indicate that just getting the alcoholics and drug addicts together in a room and letting them talk helped a little. The groups provided a sense of community and gave members some moral support, and encouragement to "make it", and succeed in abstaining. And sometimes they may have even shared their stories and given each other some helpful advice, now and then. But the inescapable conclusion was that all of the treatment programs were basically just taking the credit for the spontaneous remissions that were occurring anyway. The treatment programs were just taking the credit for the people's own hard work to save themselves.
(emphasis added)
I think there's a fair, measured argument to be made for all sides. However, that's not what they tell the parents when they're angling to get heads in the beds. They fan the flames of the parents' fear while making expansive promises of miraculous success that are simply unfounded.
And, not only do they not mention the down side, they'll sue your ass if you do. Not speaking specifically of the program you were in. Just the industry in general. And I've got a stack of threatening letters from various lawhers and program administrators to prove it. One day I may put them all online. Maybe your program is one of them.
Antigen- it isn't the same world as it was in other decades. The moral decline, the electronic communication, the increase in wealth- all of these contribute to the too much-too soon issues today's teens face. More couples are divorced, more mothers work outside the home, the pressure to achieve is more intense.
Well, in some respects that's true. But the more things change the more they stay the same. I'm with ya' on working mothers. Even when the mother in question is dysfunctional, there's a lot to be said for just having a neighborhood full of familiar people 24/7. Most of us just don't live together anymore. But I don't think shipping kids off to an even more regimented and alien environment is a good answer to that.
Not to brag or anything, but I think I did it a little bit better. When I was a young mother, I hated leaving my kids w/ strangers in day care. And I hated never being able to really throw myself into any career. Fact is, kids get colds and have other pressing needs, day cares are only open certain hours and, at the end of the day (or when you get a call before lunch time) the kid comes first. So I quit trying to work about 5 minutes after I realized I could replace what was left of my take home pay w/ just a couple of babysitting jobs.
But it was nothing like the lifestyle of the stay-at-home moms in my childhood neighborhood. The only other neighbors to stay home were crack heads and other dead beats. No good company for me or the kids and, in fact, more of a danger to guard against most of the time.
I do wish more people would give fulltime homemaking a shot so we could have that kind of security and good company in our neighborhoods again. And I wish people would quit stressing over the perceived dangers and let their kids be kids and go out and play.
But little else has changed, really. Kids are still kids and there's still no magic cure for troubling teenagers. Most, like you, run into some sort of wake-up-call and/or simply reach a level of maturity where they decide to get their act together. Some don't. That's true, and probably in equal numbers, of kids who get sent off and kids who don't.
Duct tape is like the force; it has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together.
--Jedi Knight school drop out.
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On 2005-09-28 14:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-28 11:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well- I know I needed help that I couldn't get at home or from my community at home. I think the most important thing was the feedback I got from my peers at the program. Unlike what is claimed on this forum, our group sessions were frequently excellent. I refused to buy into the crap about really dumping on another student just to make myself look like I was making progress, and I wouldn't rat out kids who broke rules. What was good, though, was my peers calling me on my bullshit and my arrogance. Even the hugs were good for me, because I was too tough back at home to ever hug anyone. What the therapeutic process did for me, both in wilderness and at the school, was allow me to let go of a lot of anger and other crap. I didn't have to demean other people to make myself feel good.
Antigen- it isn't the same world as it was in other decades. The moral decline, the electronic communication, the increase in wealth- all of these contribute to the too much-too soon issues today's teens face. More couples are divorced, more mothers work outside the home, the pressure to achieve is more intense. "
trolls are out in force! "
Wow man, first someone talks about the mindfuck seminars in a positive light about 'feelings' and 'breakthroughs' as if anyone would fall for that bullshit, then turns around and spews made up bullshit or outright lies in the statement to antigen. Hiding psychological and emotional manipulation with happy feel good words and speaking as if you had your ego functions reduced to nothing isn't going to work here.
Last I checked people had the most (inflation adjusted!) wealth in the 1970s, not now, and the 'moral decline' has been met with.. REDUCED CRIME RATES!!!
Hey, jackass, why not go read the published, freely available facts before you come in spewing utter bullshit, unless you LIKE being bitchslapped.
Yes, indeed, the trolls ARE out in force!A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
Ludwig Von Mises
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On 2005-09-28 11:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Good post., Anon. A few positive words here: Ginger, I don't agree with a lot of your posts, but you do show a willingness to consider thoughtfully the other views on the forum.
:nworthy:
Thanks very much! It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.
--Antigen
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On 2005-09-28 11:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
Then support that with reasonable regulation, help programs network with the public and other health related fields, and make it work better for everyone. It isn't nearly as entertaining as ripping folks up on a website, but it could have better long-lasting results.
I'll make this one comment before my head explodes. Because of the profuse spamming for these reform efforts, I've stayed out of the debate. I don't want my efforts to control spam to be confused w/ opposition to the effort.
Actually, I'm not entirely opposed to the effort. I think it's well intended and fairly well thought out, but irredeemably flawed in one respect. The medical profession is not doing so well under all the layers of regulation. In many cases, they manage to do right by the patients in spite of all that. I've seen good doctors bend rules, take sensible short cuts and even scam the living hell out of public funding in order to accomplish their patient care goals.
It's my opinion that we just need to enforce existing laws against various kinds of abuse and fraud. But bringing the other side of the issue into the public policy dialog is a good thing, even if it does likely result in a lot of expensive, ineffective and often absurd regulation.
So carry on, but don't hold your breath for the people who brought us FEMA and compulsory public schooling to fix this for us. As in every disaster in recent memory, we'll have to address the problem ourselves on a freelance basis. Maybe one day we can offer these kids the opportunities and freedom we once did as a nation (i.e. gimme back that half of my pay that you call taxes!) But for now, we have to work around it....the coercive collectivist State is distinctly uninterested in the cultivation of intelligence and wisdom. This is understandable...for the State has no uses to which persons of intelligence and wisdom can be put.
--Albert Jay Nock.
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Just when it seemed possible to have a reasonable interchange on this forum, Nihil had to bring his personal anger and attacks to ruin it.
You just can't stand for someone to have actually come out the other end of a program and not be bitching and moaning, can you Nihil? Not everyone deserves your ugliness. This kid shared what he believed- why dump on him because you are still fucked up?
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Ah, the loaded question - that assumes I ever was, or still am, fucked up.
Also, you say "bitching and moaning"... whats the implication there. That any grievances are just "bitching and moaning"? Discrediting the nay-sayers and me in one fell swoop, touche!
Oh, wait, so sorry, it doesnt work that way.
What he said was the kind of loaded language and 'feeling' based expressions and descriptions, which are the hallmark of LGA based seminar 'therapy'. When you reduce ego function and make it all about feelings and structured affection and confrontation, you're doing.... well, emotional manipulation, and people who come out often speak that way and avoid criticism and critical thought.
Basically feel, no thinking. I dont buy it, I dont like it, I dont see the efficacy and I HAVE seen the damage it can cause.
Maybe we should ask dear Amanda and Perrigaud in here to say their peace? Maybe these two PhD's? http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/pathology.htm)
Maybe Ginger might have something to add.?
I will admit Im still bristling from a debate that turned into a flamewar... in a car forum over engine vs engine (20b naturally aspirated vs a 2.3 liter turbo, in the context of cost/performance and power delivery, and then reliability of the latter powerplant) and shouldnt have been that piercing, but the points I made still stand.
I'll just be sure to keep it uninflamatory so I dont hurt someone's feelings or open myself up to ad-hominem attacks and thinly veiled attacks to discredit me and criticism, in the future, of course - but I find that so utterly ironic when the LGA seminars are about confrontation and riling up emotions!
:silly: After all, who wouldn't prefer Middle Earth, unless they've been corrupted by a Ring of Power?
Jeff Elkins; Tolkien's Libertarian Vision
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-09-28 15:17 ]
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Last I checked people had the most (inflation adjusted!) wealth in the 1970s, not now, and the 'moral decline' has been met with.. REDUCED CRIME RATES!!!
Hey, jackass, why not go read the published, freely available facts before you come in spewing utter bullshit, unless you LIKE being bitchslapped.
Yes, indeed, the trolls ARE out in force!A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
Ludwig Von Mises
"
Why cant you just listen and accept another pesons opinion and personal experiences?
You didnt enlighten us with you wealth of knowledge.... What caused the decrease in Crime rate? Could it be teens are more at risk in spite of the crime rate statistics, maybe drugs are relatively cheaper, you can make them at home etc? Not as much need to rob stores for drug money, maybe. HIV wasnt a factor in the 1970's, etc, etc, not claiming to know myself (dont follow those stats).
There is always one guy in the stadium who refuses to cheer for a touch down, but will talk about the bad calls all night.
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It was just stated that there was a 'moral decline', so I state that crime rates have actually gone down.
So now you state "teens are more at risk despite the crime rate statistics... because drugs are cheaper and can be made at home".
Ok, wow, way to make up a bunch of crap with nothing to support it and fearmonger about this imaginary drug pandemic! Drugs are EVERYWHERE, cheaper, and can be made at home, thus thats why the crime rate is down... because of the moral decline, right?
Oh and HIV is only a threat... if people dont have sexual education. If you KNOW to use protection, get tested, and make your partners use protection and have safe/safer sex, guess what? Its pretty freaking unlikely. The BIGGEST dangers to teens, being accidents, are generally... overlooked?
So yeah, whats your point? Society is not as it should be, theres too much busyness and not enough sociality and community, and there is (at least in some areas) a lack of actual education and safety awareness for the biggest problems of all, but those arent as scary as 'drugs' and 'gangs' and 'crime', even though far more people die to car crashes than drugs or HIV right now.
Why not more action taken in driving schools and standards for car safety? What about other common accidents and health issues like, say, obesity or stress and anxiety from school? It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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[/quote]
Why cant you just listen and accept another pesons opinion and personal experiences?
You didnt enlighten us with you wealth of knowledge.... What caused the decrease in Crime rate? Could it be teens are more at risk in spite of the crime rate statistics, maybe drugs are relatively cheaper, you can make them at home etc? Not as much need to rob stores for drug money, maybe. HIV wasnt a factor in the 1970's, etc, etc, not claiming to know myself (dont follow those stats).
There is always one guy in the stadium who refuses to cheer for a touch down, but will talk about the bad calls all night."
[/quote]
Oh I'll take a stab! Sure, it is dime-store psychology, but what the hell!
He is an anger, confused young person who mistakes swearing and spewing what he claims to be "facts" as a substitute for real life experience and true intelligence. He parrots facts, throws in sarcasm and attacks, and passes it off as passionate outrage.
My guess would be that he is abnormally close to his mother, has had trouble forming real life friends, and feels persecuted. People are against him not because of HIS actions, but because of others. Everything is a conspiracy against him.
If tested, he probably would probably have a high IQ (if you believe there is any relevance in that), but probably had a difficult time in school. Again, probably the fault of others.
This is rather fun! Of course, we will never know how close the description is - - - would be interesting to know.
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Not only did you totally fuck up the quotes, but youre wrong.
Lesse, Im going by what actual PHD's have had to say about it, and personal accounts of those who have been through it and had the distance to think of it, not people defending their actions as a parent or a child who just came out.
I AM actually outraged.
Im actually very distant from my mom, have a great time making friends and actually Im rather charismatic and friendly.
No, everything isnt a conspiracy, just the moon landing.
And, FYI, my IQ is over 140. I did great in school, until I got bored and dropped out to get my GED to get into college sooner because I was bored and my patience wore thin. Oh, and I kept the network running because the guy who was supposed to flaked out all the time, and did retarded shit like set the BIOS on the server to require someone to push a button to turn it on after power was disrupted... having it boot itself when it gets power is much more logical when its in a LOCKED CLOSET that I had to jimmy to get at when he disappeared for a few weeks... and dont even get me started about the rats nest of Cat5.
P.S. - arent we getting off topic trying to engage me in ad-hominem bullshit instead of defending your point and answering my own? :wink: What is this new loyalty? It is, above all, conformity. It is the uncritical and unquestioning acceptance of America as it is. It rejects inquiry into the race question or socialized medicine or public housing, regards as heinous any challenge to what is called the system of private enterprise, identifying that system with Americanism. It abandons evolution, repudiates the once popular concept of progress, and regards America as a finished product, perfect and complete. The concept of loyalty as conformity is a false one. It is narrow and restrictive, denies freedom of thought and conscience... What do men know of loyalty who make a mockery of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights?
Henry Steele Commager, 1947
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On 2005-09-28 15:40:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Not only did you totally fuck up the quotes, but youre wrong.
Lesse, Im going by what actual PHD's have had to say about it, and personal accounts of those who have been through it and had the distance to think of it, not people defending their actions as a parent or a child who just came out.
I AM actually outraged.
Im actually very distant from my mom, have a great time making friends and actually Im rather charismatic and friendly.
No, everything isnt a conspiracy, just the moon landing.
And, FYI, my IQ is over 140. I did great in school, until I got bored and dropped out to get my GED to get into college sooner because I was bored and my patience wore thin. Oh, and I kept the network running because the guy who was supposed to flaked out all the time, and did retarded shit like set the BIOS on the server to require someone to push a button to turn it on after power was disrupted... having it boot itself when it gets power is much more logical when its in a LOCKED CLOSET that I had to jimmy to get at when he disappeared for a few weeks... and dont even get me started about the rats nest of Cat5.
P.S. - arent we getting off topic trying to engage me in ad-hominem bullshit instead of defending your point and answering my own? :wink: What is this new loyalty? It is, above all, conformity. It is the uncritical and unquestioning acceptance of America as it is. It rejects inquiry into the race question or socialized medicine or public housing, regards as heinous any challenge to what is called the system of private enterprise, identifying that system with Americanism. It abandons evolution, repudiates the once popular concept of progress, and regards America as a finished product, perfect and complete. The concept of loyalty as conformity is a false one. It is narrow and restrictive, denies freedom of thought and conscience... What do men know of loyalty who make a mockery of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights?
Henry Steele Commager, 1947
"
Funny - your response just seemed to prove a lot of my guesses!
I'm sure you are working your way thru a top shelf college, taking a double load, on the dean's list, dating the head cheerleader AND don't live with mommy. Yawn - time for bed after that fairy tale.
And no - - I'm not trying to engage you in "ad-hominem bullshit" (my my we have learned a phrase we think is impressive, have we?). I have no point to prove. Like I said - I was just engaging in dime-store psychology. And I must say, your reaction was fairly predictable!
But enough fun - time to trip the light fantastic!
-
Look, it's simple really. Parents who send their kids to a program are in 2 categories: Those who are glad they did it and those who wish they had not done it.
What's getting lost in the sauce are the teens, themselves. The true VICTIMS of Behavior Modification, American style.
When they speak, I sit up and listen because I don't really care what the parent has to say, I've heard it all before.
To be sure, more parents are tricked (duped) into sending their children away than we (or even they) know. It's a viable excuse ... but it doesn't change the fact that their child paid the ultimate price for their ignorance and/or vulnerability.
Being stuck in a program for months, even years, is no cake walk. It's a disgrace. It's traumatizing. It's a living nightmare.
Yes, shame on the parents who abandon their children to the care and custody of others for no better reason than they can afford to park their kid out-of-state (out-of-mind) until the age of 18. You all know there are parents doing this ... so let's not dance around the issue anymore.
Kudos to the parents who upon realizing they made a mistake, pull their kids and bring them home. These parents are few and far between but they do exist ... and some in fact, are helping other parents to avoid the same mistake they made.
Remember,there are no safe guards to protect children from being "medicalized", "demonized", "criminalized" as the answer to conflict in the home, school or community.
Hell, most kids don't even get a second opinion from an independent (meaning one who does NOT work for the institutionalized-style program) before being yanked out of their bed and dragged off into the night to some for-profit teen help program.
It's outrageous and it needs to stop. This isn't about taking away parents' rights ... it's about deciding where a parent's rights end and a child's begin.
:smokin:
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On 2005-09-28 15:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Look, it's simple really. Parents who send their kids to a program are in 2 categories: Those who are glad they did it and those who wish they had not done it.
What's getting lost in the sauce are the teens, themselves. The true VICTIMS of Behavior Modification, American style.
When they speak, I sit up and listen because I don't really care what the parent has to say, I've heard it all before.
To be sure, more parents are tricked (duped) into sending their children away than we (or even they) know. It's a viable excuse ... but it doesn't change the fact that their child paid the ultimate price for their ignorance and/or vulnerability.
Being stuck in a program for months, even years, is no cake walk. It's a disgrace. It's traumatizing. It's a living nightmare.
Yes, shame on the parents who abandon their children to the care and custody of others for no better reason than they can afford to park their kid out-of-state (out-of-mind) until the age of 18. You all know there are parents doing this ... so let's not dance around the issue anymore.
Kudos to the parents who upon realizing they made a mistake, pull their kids and bring them home. These parents are few and far between but they do exist ... and some in fact, are helping other parents to avoid the same mistake they made.
Remember,there are no safe guards to protect children from being "medicalized", "demonized", "criminalized" as the answer to conflict in the home, school or community.
Hell, most kids don't even get a second opinion from an independent behavioral healthcare specialist (meaning one who does NOT work for the institutionalized-style program) before being yanked out of their bed and dragged off into the night to some for-profit teen help program.
It's outrageous and it needs to stop. This isn't about taking away parents' rights ... it's about deciding where a parent's rights end and a child's begin.
:smokin:
"
Edited for typo (see bold face type)
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Funny - your response just seemed to prove a lot of my guesses!
I'm sure you are working your way thru a top shelf college, taking a double load, on the dean's list, dating the head cheerleader AND don't live with mommy. Yawn - time for bed after that fairy tale.
And no - - I'm not trying to engage you in "ad-hominem bullshit" (my my we have learned a phrase we think is impressive, have we?). I have no point to prove. Like I said - I was just engaging in dime-store psychology. And I must say, your reaction was fairly predictable!
But enough fun - time to trip the light fantastic!
"
You want a cookie because I felt like biting and playing along? lol.
And... uh, no Im not. Im living at home to save money after I bailed my parents out in 2003, Im working and going to school part time, I dont give a rats ass about the deans list - you wouldnt BELIEVE who Im dating BTW - , and yeah.... Im 'with mommy' as you so eloquently put it. Oh and I go to a technical college cos my family is... broke. So sorry your polar extreme didnt work out in the real world!
Im very glad you have no point to prove because the only thing you got right is how smart I am :lol: Dime store psychology and acting like Im predictable for playing along... I guess I should hold a seance to see if they will wear sneakers and bounce a orange ball during a basketball game?
I played along to show how wrong you are with your assumptions... but yes, heres a cookie. Even a clock thats broke is right at least twice a day. People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.
-
On 2005-09-28 15:40:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
Lesse, Im going by what actual PHD's have had to say about it
Nothing personal but you are not contributing anything personal. "Actual PHD's" vs what? People without them, people who pretend to have them. You talk about rates, statistics and facts but bring nothing to the table.
Your right we are off the track.......
Okay back to where we started which is one person sharing there personal experiences which goes against what people(with actual PHD's) have told you. So maybe they lied to you
-
Way to try to ignore all the relevance and context to focus on one variable!
What a DOCTOR has to say about something that was found to be nothing more than a emotionally and psychologially manipulative experience that reduces ego function (critical thought) and makes the person nothing more than a being of feelings who is compliant to the facilitator, does matter.
Oh, and it matters a lot more than someone who very much seems to be manipulated by it and under its effects!
Damn, context is a bitch, innit?
No,w, all this "contributing something personal" you speak of smells a lot like something Id hear in a LGA, or Rap, or Seminar, or Propheet, or Workshop.. pretty ironic, huh?
And yeah good try calling two doctors liars. Someone whose been manipulated is hardly as reliable as a professional, outside, educated opinion of how it works, and I dont see one person as having more pull than a group of people who went through it a LONG time ago, and have since had time to work through any manipulative effects that they may have encumbered...
And liars dont magically always get their stories straight with remotely spread out collaborators every time, all the time, for 20+ years. The fact that they are spread out, its been so long, and there are so many of them saying the SAME THING speaks a lot of their VALIDITY, not that theyre lying.
Oh, and personally speaking, I think youre a poo-poo head. There, I contributed something personal.Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.
Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young, DOJ/DEA
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On 2005-09-28 15:58:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Funny - your response just seemed to prove a lot of my guesses!
I'm sure you are working your way thru a top shelf college, taking a double load, on the dean's list, dating the head cheerleader AND don't live with mommy. Yawn - time for bed after that fairy tale.
And no - - I'm not trying to engage you in "ad-hominem bullshit" (my my we have learned a phrase we think is impressive, have we?). I have no point to prove. Like I said - I was just engaging in dime-store psychology. And I must say, your reaction was fairly predictable!
But enough fun - time to trip the light fantastic!
"
You want a cookie because I felt like biting and playing along? lol.
And... uh, no Im not. Im living at home to save money after I bailed my parents out in 2003, Im working and going to school part time, I dont give a rats ass about the deans list - you wouldnt BELIEVE who Im dating BTW - , and yeah.... Im 'with mommy' as you so eloquently put it. Oh and I go to a technical college cos my family is... broke. So sorry your polar extreme didnt work out in the real world!
Im very glad you have no point to prove because the only thing you got right is how smart I am :lol: Dime store psychology and acting like Im predictable for playing along... I guess I should hold a seance to see if they will wear sneakers and bounce a orange ball during a basketball game?
I played along to show how wrong you are with your assumptions... but yes, heres a cookie. Even a clock thats broke is right at least twice a day. People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.
"
How wrong I am?? HAHAHAHA Sounds like I was spot on!
Oh and keep your cookie and have it with a glass of milk for your bedtime snack when mommy tucks you in so you can continue in your fantasy world.
And like I said - enough. You are so predictable - and rather sad in that predictability - that it isn't really worth it.
Ta ta and tally ho
[BTW - the "polar extreme" was sarcasm silly! I'm surprised someone of your high IQ and advanced training and education would have recognized that!]
-
On 2005-09-28 15:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
Remember,there are no safe guards to protect children from being "medicalized", "demonized", "criminalized" as the answer to conflict in the home, school or community.
Hell, most kids don't even get a second opinion from an independent behavioral healthcare specialist (meaning one who does NOTwork for the institutionalized-style program) before being yanked out of their bed and dragged off into the night to some for-profit teen help program.
It's outrageous and it needs to stop. This isn't about taking away parents' rights ... it's about deciding where a parent's rights end and a child's begin.
:smokin:
"
Like the Power EBAY Sellers, there are program referral agents who sell "troubled teens" by the dozens into programs who pay them finder's fees worth thousands of dollars.
Not to worry, this sleezy, despictable practice is at the top of the TEEN HELP INDUSTRY REFORM LIST ... much to the chagrin of the greedy profiteers who make their living recruiting children on the Internet vis a vis their own websites or harvesting SALES leads from discussion boards like Struggling Teens.
:wave:
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On 2005-09-28 16:08:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
Oh, and personally speaking, I think youre a poo-poo head. There, I contributed something personal.Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.
Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young, DOJ/DEA
"
Thank you ,just what I thought you had to contribute.
-
Yeah, spot on because I proved you wrong but in HOW I did it you predicted (but didnt say before so theres no way to know you did)... riiight.
BTW, Im distant from my mom, how many times have I said that?
HEre, take your dime back to go buy yourself a cookie :silly: Patient memoirs are a kind of protest literature like slave narratives or witness testimonies.
G.A.Hornstein
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Nihilanthic- as soon as you enter a thread, I have to leave. You make me puke. Goodbye.
-
If you all wanna have some fun, start emailing the power recruiters and tell them about your (fictious) troubled teen who has pushed you to near breaking point. You will be surprised at how quickly they jump on you ... like a fly on chit ... working that SALES LEAD ... drooling all over themselves with visions of buying that brand new BMW or SUV they've had their eye on since last week.
I can hear it now ...
"I'm not trying to pressure you, but Stepford Kids R Us is one of the best programs out there and right now, they only have room for one more teen ...."
:rofl:
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On 2005-09-28 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic- as soon as you enter a thread, I have to leave. You make me puke. Goodbye."
Oh but we "wouldn't believe who he is dating"!
Wonder if he names all of his blowup dolls! Or wait - maybe it is someone online that he has never laid eyes (or anything else!!!) on!
-
On 2005-09-28 16:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-28 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic- as soon as you enter a thread, I have to leave. You make me puke. Goodbye."
Oh but we "wouldn't believe who he is dating"!
Wonder if he names all of his blowup dolls! Or wait - maybe it is someone online that he has never laid eyes (or anything else!!!) on!
"
Okay, enough is enough. Please stay on topic or take it to PM (private message).
::bangin::
-
ANON PEOPLE CANT PM! They can also fake identity.. how do I know youre not all the same person.
As far as mr puke, so sorry I call you on the bullshit... whoever you are.
And as far as who I am dating, well, she happens to be with me right now and laughing at all of this :lol: The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn
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On 2005-09-28 16:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-28 16:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-28 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nihilanthic- as soon as you enter a thread, I have to leave. You make me puke. Goodbye."
Oh but we "wouldn't believe who he is dating"!
Wonder if he names all of his blowup dolls! Or wait - maybe it is someone online that he has never laid eyes (or anything else!!!) on!
"
Okay, enough is enough. Please stay on topic or take it to PM (private message).
::bangin:: "
Sure, let's take this to PM. Go on, PM me Baghead!
-
On 2005-09-28 17:20:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"ANON PEOPLE CANT PM! They can also fake identity.. how do I know youre not all the same person.
As far as mr puke, so sorry I call you on the bullshit... whoever you are.
And as far as who I am dating, well, she happens to be with me right now and laughing at all of this :lol: The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn
"
Virtually with you I'm sure! Notice you didn't say "sitting right here with me".
-
Virtually with you I'm sure! Notice you didn't say "sitting right here with me". "
You're sure of that, huh? Are you trying to find out if he's alone? Trust me... he's not :wink: [ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-09-28 19:17 ]
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On 2005-09-27 10:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Here's an idea; how about if the kids start behaving at home and respecting their parents and staying in school and staying off drugs! That way their parents won't have a chance to turn into "strugging parents" and look for schools to put their kids in. Everybody wins. Kids behave. Parents don't have to shell out 100,000 dollars for someone to do their parenting for them. Bad schools don't have a chance to make money off of them. Just imagine the possibilities!"
This comment is not based on reality at all!
any intelligent and sane psychologist will tell you that a childs natural nature is to be selfish. they will further tell you that a child acts to selfishly to protect his/her needs. This is a built in mechanism that children have to get their needs met. If a childs needs are not met they will "act out" to get their needs met.
My disclaimer: I used the word "act out" for lack of a better term. Children can and will play this out in many different ways because they are all different individuals. Tell me something...Do you think or does anyone on here think it appropriate to use a cookie cutter answer for all "selfish" children? My answer is no way. The reason that I say no way is because they are individuals. At the very least children are humans and deserve dignity and respectful treatment as individuals.
thank you
warm regards to real survivors here!
-DPThe law in its majestic equality, forbids all men to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread - the rich as well as the poor
--Anatole France
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Since when is ANYTHING on this forum based on reality? It is based on the whining of a bunch of very strange and dysfunctional young adults who seem to not be able to find a life for themselves.
-
Ok then based on you saying that all children are selfish by nature, then why do some kids behave, do well in school and respect their parents and others? Sometimes within the same family group 3 of 4 siblings will follow the rules and 1 won't. Your statement isn't based in reality. It shouldn't be assumed that all children should misbehave, do drugs, skip school, treat their parents and siblings like dirt, and act like the world OWES them something as a rite of passage to adulthood. Yhis shouldnt be accepted behavior. That is not how the world works. There are rules. Rules are to be abided by. People should be treated with respect. Children should do what is asked of them. If children fail to do these things, there are consequences. I am sick of seeing spoiled brats demand things of their parents and throwing temper tantrums when they don't get what they want because the parents wanted to give the children empowerment and control over their own decisions. 5 year olds don't need empowerment. They need structure. They need someone to help them along. Without discipline(not corporal punishment) they turn into what you see in Walmart when they don't get a toy. Parents should be in control, not the children. I love my children more than anything. I show them love every single day. But they know that when I say no, I mean no. Children shouldn't feel as if they run the household. Any parent who allows this is doing their children a huge disservice.
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On 2005-09-28 19:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ok then based on you saying that all children are selfish by nature, then why do some kids behave, do well in school and respect their parents and others? Sometimes within the same family group 3 of 4 siblings will follow the rules and 1 won't. Your statement isn't based in reality. It shouldn't be assumed that all children should misbehave, do drugs, skip school, treat their parents and siblings like dirt, and act like the world OWES them something as a rite of passage to adulthood. Yhis shouldnt be accepted behavior. That is not how the world
works. There are rules. Rules are to be abided by. People should be treated with respect. Children should do what is asked of them. If children fail to do these things, there are consequences. I am sick of seeing spoiled brats demand things of their parents and throwing temper tantrums when they don't get what they want because the parents wanted to give the children empowerment and control over their own decisions. 5 year olds don't need empowerment. They need structure. They need someone to help them along. Without discipline(not corporal punishment) they turn into what you see in Walmart when they don't get a toy. Parents should be in control, not the children. I love my children more than anything. I show them love every single day. But they know that when I say no, I mean no. Children shouldn't feel as if they run the household. Any parent who allows this is doing their children a huge disservice."
I am not speaking about not giving children the discipline and the structure that they need. I have children of my own and I do discipline them out of my love for them, and I do feel that every parent should, because they do need structure. I agree that children should not run the household also, but I don't agree with this notion because I want or feel the need to control them. I think that if I were soley disciplining my children out of some sick need to control them, then that would just be plain sick. That kind of metality is sick in my humble opinion. As for an out of control teen....I would need to investigate what the root of the problem for that individual child may be and work to find ways to help them and also encourage them to help themselves. The thing I find most troubling with some parents in todays world and with this world in general is that it has gotten so fast paced. This presents a problem for our kids. The reason that this presents a problem for children is that today they are expected to act like little adults on a regular basis.Let me be clear here: I am not talking about "normal" expectations like responsibility, chores, manners etc...I am talking about expecting children to grasp adult concepts and things like that when they just are not at that maturity level yet. This is an unrealistic expectation put on todays children sometimes by adults and also I have seen professionals do it as well. Are ye even aware of how many children are misdiagnosed these days with "mental disorders"( example add/adhd) as a result of an adult just not wanting to take the time to understand a childs need? Way too many!
This is all relative and I will bring this point home to ye here: Many adults in todays society are moving so fast themselves they are falling short on developing childrens emotional IQ's as well as other areas.
Although I do understand that parents get "desperate" as they have told me for help with their "out of control teen", this does not excuse a parent locking their child up in a potentially harmful facility and not taking the time to investigate the place still while they are in the treatment facility. Can ye honestly say that the childs behavior would excuse the parents behavior, or can ye say that the childs bad behavior validates a parent that does not follow up once they are locked up? I would never in a million years give my child over to someone else where I am not allowed to visit them with an open door policy, no matter how "out of control" my child was. I can say this honestly because I love both of my children very much.
-DPSpeculations on the Origin of Human Intelligence: "In defense of the Pygmies, perhaps I should note that a friend of mine who has spent time with them says that for such activities as the patient stalking and hunting of mammals and fish they prepare themselves through marijuana intoxication, which helps to make the long waits, boring to anyone further evolved than a Komodo dragon, at least moderately tolerable. Ganja is, he says, their only cultivated crop. It would be wryly interesting if in human history the cultivation of marijuana led generally to the invention of agriculture, and thereby to civilization.
Carl Sagan - The Dragons of Eden - 1977
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On 2005-09-28 19:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Since when is ANYTHING on this forum based on reality? It is based on the whining of a bunch of very strange and dysfunctional young adults who seem to not be able to find a life for themselves."
by the way I have a life and it is very good thank you! Quit assuming that you know anyone here because obviously you do not, but I sure do, and have actually met some good friends here.
-DPOur government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill it teaches the whole people by example. Crime is contageous. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law, it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.
U.S. Justice Brandeis (1856-1941)
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On 2005-09-28 19:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ok then based on you saying that all children are selfish by nature, then why do some kids behave, do well in school and respect their parents and others? Sometimes within the same family group 3 of 4 siblings will follow the rules and 1 won't. Your statement isn't based in reality. It shouldn't be assumed that all children should misbehave, do drugs, skip school, treat their parents and siblings like dirt, and act like the world OWES them something as a rite of passage to adulthood. Yhis shouldnt be accepted behavior. That is not how the world works. There are rules. Rules are to be abided by. People should be treated with respect. Children should do what is asked of them. If children fail to do these things, there are consequences. I am sick of seeing spoiled brats demand things of their parents and throwing temper tantrums when they don't get what they want because the parents wanted to give the children empowerment and control over their own decisions. 5 year olds don't need empowerment. They need structure. They need someone to help them along. Without discipline(not corporal punishment) they turn into what you see in Walmart when they don't get a toy. Parents should be in control, not the children. I love my children more than anything. I show them love every single day. But they know that when I say no, I mean no. Children shouldn't feel as if they run the household. Any parent who allows this is doing their children a huge disservice."
That's not what DP was saying, you are over-reacting. Of course kids need boundaries and structure. What they don't need is some hyper-controlling TYPE A Parent or Religious Zealot force feeding them a daily regimen of mental, emotional, physical abuse. You'd be surprised how many abused kids end up in these programs where sadly, the abuse continues but is called a different name: THERAPY.
:smokin:
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On 2005-09-28 18:05:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
Virtually with you I'm sure! Notice you didn't say "sitting right here with me". "
You're sure of that, huh? Are you trying to find out if he's alone? Trust me... he's not :wink: [ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-09-28 19:17 ]"
Guess that is suppose to imply you are there with him, huh? If so, why not just say that? Just you, him, mommy and the computer - sounds like a real swell time!
Oh but that's right - we've been told he is "distant" from mommy. Yet at 20, he is still sponging off her and living with her? Great character statement there!
Oh wait- that's right. Poor college boy is broke. You know, there is a cure for that - GET A JOB! Besides, someone sooo brilliant that they even started college early cause they got "bored" and dropped out to get a GED - well, seems like they would be done already with college. Hell, I work with a guy that goes to school full-time AND works full-time - and I bet he doesn't even know his IQ!
No wonder it makes that poster want to puke.
-
On 2005-09-28 16:08:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Way to try to ignore all the relevance and context to focus on one variable!
What a DOCTOR has to say about something that was found to be nothing more than a emotionally and psychologially manipulative experience that reduces ego function (critical thought) and makes the person nothing more than a being of feelings who is compliant to the facilitator, does matter.
Oh, and it matters a lot more than someone who very much seems to be manipulated by it and under its effects!
Damn, context is a bitch, innit?
No,w, all this "contributing something personal" you speak of smells a lot like something Id hear in a LGA, or Rap, or Seminar, or Propheet, or Workshop.. pretty ironic, huh?
And yeah good try calling two doctors liars. Someone whose been manipulated is hardly as reliable as a professional, outside, educated opinion of how it works, and I dont see one person as having more pull than a group of people who went through it a LONG time ago, and have since had time to work through any manipulative effects that they may have encumbered...
And liars dont magically always get their stories straight with remotely spread out collaborators every time, all the time, for 20+ years. The fact that they are spread out, its been so long, and there are so many of them saying the SAME THING speaks a lot of their VALIDITY, not that theyre lying.
Oh, and personally speaking, I think youre a poo-poo head. There, I contributed something personal.
Why does this logic for validity work for you when you talk about the horrors in some behavior modification schools, but does not when you talk about the evidence of God and the life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ?
-
Why does this logic for validity work for you when you talk about the horrors in some behavior modification schools, but does not when you talk about the evidence of God and the life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ? "
[/quote]
-
Guess that is suppose to imply you are there with him, huh? If so, why not just say that? Just you, him, mommy and the computer - sounds like a real swell time!
Let's just say I know more than you do. Maybe you don't know enough to be appraising anyone's personal life. But then again, maybe it's none of your business.
Oh but that's right - we've been told he is "distant" from mommy. Yet at 20, he is still sponging off her and living with her? Great character statement there!
Again - you're attacking someone's personal life, and you don't know shit.
I'm interested to hear your analysis of a situation, Doctor :
Two women live in a house together. One is about 50, the other about 30. Who's "living with" whom, and what is their relationship like?
Oh wait- that's right. Poor college boy is broke. You know, there is a cure for that - GET A JOB! Besides, someone sooo brilliant that they even started college early cause they got "bored" and dropped out to get a GED - well, seems like they would be done already with college. Hell, I work with a guy that goes to school full-time AND works full-time - and I bet he doesn't even know his IQ!
No wonder it makes that poster want to puke.
And the rest of this is such juvenile drivel that I can't believe someone with your self-proclaimed understanding of psychology would bother to post... unless to goad someone into defending your personal attack so you can say "Oh LOOK! See how DEFENSIVE you're getting???" It's the oldest trick in the book, pal.
I noticed you said you work with a guy...
How about you, righteous one? What's your level of education? How old were you when you finished college? What do you do for a living? Do you have a woman (a man?) sitting on your lap right now? What's your relationship with your mother like? :???:
Go on... lie down on the couch if you like. :lol:
-
On 2005-09-29 04:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Why does this logic for validity work for you when you talk about the horrors in some behavior modification schools, but does not when you talk about the evidence of God and the life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ? "
"
-
On 2005-09-29 05:08:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
Guess that is suppose to imply you are there with him, huh? If so, why not just say that? Just you, him, mommy and the computer - sounds like a real swell time!
Let's just say I know more than you do. Maybe you don't know enough to be appraising anyone's personal life. But then again, maybe it's none of your business.
Oh but that's right - we've been told he is "distant" from mommy. Yet at 20, he is still sponging off her and living with her? Great character statement there!
Again - you're attacking someone's personal life, and you don't know shit.
I'm interested to hear your analysis of a situation, Doctor :
Two women live in a house together. One is about 50, the other about 30. Who's "living with" whom, and what is their relationship like?
Oh wait- that's right. Poor college boy is broke. You know, there is a cure for that - GET A JOB! Besides, someone sooo brilliant that they even started college early cause they got "bored" and dropped out to get a GED - well, seems like they would be done already with college. Hell, I work with a guy that goes to school full-time AND works full-time - and I bet he doesn't even know his IQ!
No wonder it makes that poster want to puke.
And the rest of this is such juvenile drivel that I can't believe someone with your self-proclaimed understanding of psychology would bother to post... unless to goad someone into defending your personal attack so you can say "Oh LOOK! See how DEFENSIVE you're getting???" It's the oldest trick in the book, pal.
I noticed you said you work with a guy...
How about you, righteous one? What's your level of education? How old were you when you finished college? What do you do for a living? Do you have a woman (a man?) sitting on your lap right now? What's your relationship with your mother like? :???:
Go on... lie down on the couch if you like. :lol:
"
Too funny! I am only going by what he himself posted!
Amazing - no where have I ever claimed to have an understanding of psychology. Go back and read again dear. You will notice that YOU are the one making up things to support your rants. I am simply pointing out things that someone said about themselves.
Now I must say - I really don't see what 2 women living together (much less how old they are) has to do with this discussion - but fine - I'd say they are living TOGETHER.
Cute trick! Let's throw unrelated stuff out there. We won't deny what was said, or clarify any misinformation. We will just come up with unrelated drivel!
Or are you trying to say his mommy lives with him? And this 20 yr old college kid that apparently is broke and has no job, is supporting his mommy?
One thing you did get right - it is none of my business. So why does he insist on posting all this shit about his life? Especially when it doesn't exactly paint him in a flattering light?
Oh, and since you asked so nicely (ha!), I have a 4 yr degree and was 20 when I graduated from university. I am employed full-time. There will be a real live human in my bed when I go to sleep tonight. My mother and I have a wonderful relationship - we both love and respect each other. Thanks for asking!
-
To the ANON bashing Niles: what is your problem? You are an absolute jerk, who deserves to only be ignored!
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On 2005-09-28 11:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Good post., Anon. A few positive words here: Ginger, I don't agree with a lot of your posts, but you do show a willingness to consider thoughtfully the other views on the forum.
::bangin:: program graduate" "college student" posting, it's usually her impersonating her own son, who's also got a ton of social issues.
He previously has threatened people on this board that he was going to "rape your wife." He's a sick and sadistic little bastard and takes after mommy who is an arrogant miscreant bereft of conscience or moral values.
Just thought you might like to know who your dealing with. Might as well bang your head on a rock... ::bangin::
-
On 2005-09-29 06:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-28 11:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Good post., Anon. A few positive words here: Ginger, I don't agree with a lot of your posts, but you do show a willingness to consider thoughtfully the other views on the forum.
::bangin:: program graduate" "college student" posting, it's usually her impersonating her own son, who's also got a ton of social issues.
He previously has threatened people on this board that he was going to "rape your wife." He's a sick and sadistic little bastard and takes after mommy who is an arrogant miscreant bereft of conscience or moral values.
Just thought you might like to know who your dealing with. Might as well bang your head on a rock... ::bangin:: "
Sorry - but you are wrong! No idea who you are even talking about, but don't let that stop you!
I know - the truth, it's a bitch, ain't it? Someday it will came and slap you right upside the head.
Have fun - I'm done!
-
The Program Success Story Wrote:
"Oh, and since you asked so nicely (ha!), I have a 4 yr degree and was 20 when I graduated from university. I am employed full-time. There will be a real live human in my bed when I go to sleep tonight. My mother and I have a wonderful relationship - we both love and respect each other. Thanks for asking!"
Dude, you sleep with your mom? That's sooooo nasty. Can't you get some other "real live human" other than your own mom? GROSS.
-
On 2005-09-29 06:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-28 11:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Good post., Anon. A few positive words here: Ginger, I don't agree with a lot of your posts, but you do show a willingness to consider thoughtfully the other views on the forum.
::bangin:: program graduate" "college student" posting, it's usually her impersonating her own son, who's also got a ton of social issues.
He previously has threatened people on this board that he was going to "rape your wife." He's a sick and sadistic little bastard and takes after mommy who is an arrogant miscreant bereft of conscience or moral values.
Just thought you might like to know who your dealing with. Might as well bang your head on a rock... ::bangin:: "
This mother-and-son duo are doing a very good job exposing the mindset of teen helper wannabees ... it's all about THEIR twisted values and beliefs and instilling them into young minds.
The mother troll, especially, should buy herself a big bottle of anti-diarrhea medicine b/c the chit coming out her mouth is so putrid it makes me want to puke.
:smokin:
-
BTW all, I just checked on something. Dug into the ole box-o-childhood-paper-crap.
As a young child I got a WISC-III test done. Thats Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children - III
I scored a 143. 135 is the threshold for being in the smartest 1% of the population.In other words, its statistically almost guaranteed Im smarter than most if not all people here.
So yeah, keep trolling away, Im having a blast being called stupid ::both:: by someone trying to play those double-bind psychological tricks that everyone does in the LGAs (under the guise of worksop, seminar, propheet, rap, or simply verbal diarrhea) and saying he got it right right after I said he got it WRONG... and then continues to call me a 'mamas boy'.
P.S. - the reason Im sticking around, is because she had thyroid cancer, and having had her thyroid and the cysts removed requires help around the house and with my sister. Assuming sure made an ass out of you today, bucko.
Oh, and yes, heres your dime: I really, really got off on being an arrogant prick to you :grin: Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
-
On 2005-09-29 10:34:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"BTW all, I just checked on something. Dug into the ole box-o-childhood-paper-crap.
As a young child I got a WISC-III test done. Thats Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children - III
I scored a 143. 135 is the threshold for being in the smartest 1% of the population.In other words, its statistically almost guaranteed Im smarter than most if not all people here.
So yeah, keep trolling away, Im having a blast being called stupid ::both:: by someone trying to play those double-bind psychological tricks that everyone does in the LGAs (under the guise of worksop, seminar, propheet, rap, or simply verbal diarrhea) and saying he got it right right after I said he got it WRONG... and then continues to call me a 'mamas boy'.
P.S. - the reason Im sticking around, is because she had thyroid cancer, and having had her thyroid and the cysts removed requires help around the house and with my sister. Assuming sure made an ass out of you today, bucko.
Oh, and yes, heres your dime: I really, really got off on being an arrogant prick to you :grin: Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
"
Niles, I have known for some time that you are a deviant of sorts. I just never dreamed you were THAT DEVIANT.
Your IQ is two standard deviations above the average. The deviant bastard's a genius.
Give that man a cigar...
-
:roll:
The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
--H.L. Mencken
-
On 2005-09-29 15:00:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
":lol: Id settle for an explanation of why Im having trouble getting a job, Im having trouble affording an education... and our leaders are by most accounts dumbfucks :roll: The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
--H.L. Mencken
"
Aspergers Syndrome? I'm serious, when you mentioned your I.Q. and then looked at the type of responses you were giving to people expressing their feelings it clicked.
Check it out - no slight intended
-
On 2005-09-29 15:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 15:00:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
":lol: Id settle for an explanation of why Im having trouble getting a job, Im having trouble affording an education... and our leaders are by most accounts dumbfucks :roll: The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
--H.L. Mencken
"
Aspergers Syndrome? I'm serious, when you mentioned your I.Q. and then looked at the type of responses you were giving to people expressing their feelings it clicked.
Check it out - no slight intended"
By definition, those with AS have a normal IQ and many individuals (although not all), exhibit exceptional skill or talent in a specific area. Because of their high degree of functionality and their naiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody. Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like "little professors." However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context.
This DOES NOT describe Niles.
Why would a genius-level IQ lead you to think about AS when, by definition, IQ's are normal?
I think you spend too much time trying to LOOK like you know what you're talking about and too little time actually learning.
If you're going to be an arm-chair psychologist, at least try to give a somewhat relevent diagnosis.
-
On 2005-09-29 04:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Why does this logic for validity work for you when you talk about the horrors in some behavior modification schools, but does not when you talk about the evidence of God and the life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ? "
I once had a conversation with a fundementalist christian and when I mentioned I was a member of the UUA, he said, "Oh yeah, that's the church where you can believe anything you want."
My response was, "No, as a fundamentalist christian, you can believe anything you want; despite history, science, logic, and reason. I have to justify what I believe in."
[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2005-09-29 16:48 ]
-
On 2005-09-29 16:27:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 15:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 15:00:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
":lol: Id settle for an explanation of why Im having trouble getting a job, Im having trouble affording an education... and our leaders are by most accounts dumbfucks :roll: The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
--H.L. Mencken
"
Aspergers Syndrome? I'm serious, when you mentioned your I.Q. and then looked at the type of responses you were giving to people expressing their feelings it clicked.
Check it out - no slight intended"
By definition, those with AS have a normal IQ and many individuals (although not all), exhibit exceptional skill or talent in a specific area. Because of their high degree of functionality and their naiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody. Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like "little professors." However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context.
This DOES NOT describe Niles.
Why would a genius-level IQ lead you to think about AS when, by definition, IQ's are normal?
I think you spend too much time trying to LOOK like you know what you're talking about and too little time actually learning.
If you're going to be an arm-chair psychologist, at least try to give a somewhat relevent diagnosis.
"
Not claiming to be an expert, but this information appears to be incorrect. If you look at the DSM-IV DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER (http://www.aspergers.com/aspcrit.htm (http://www.aspergers.com/aspcrit.htm)), there is no mention of IQ at all.
Also, looking at various sites - some say average IQ, others say high IQ. One thing that does seem to be consistant is the concept of Performance IQ vs Verbal IQ. I have no knowledge of how IQ breaks down into the different areas - and will admit, my limited experience leads me to think that IQ is totally meaningless and irrelevant in terms of intelligence, ability, or anything else.
So - while I'm not an expert, minimal research seems to indicate that statements about a correlation between Aspergers and IQ are conflicting at best.
-
We seem to have strayed from the topic at hand which was:
Why Are Struggling Parents Such An Easy Mark?
I want to return to it. I decided to ask some other experts in the field of teen development and queried my bowling buddies. These guys have all been married since I was wearing diapers and have grown children and/or teens of their own. It took me a long time to convince them that teen escorts actually existed. They were aghast and said things like, "No way can that be legal!" and "Not in this country!" One suggested he'd like to find a program for his wife.
After getting through this initial astonishment, I turned to the topic above and asked them the same question. The result was interesting and amusing.
Dual income families are to blame. Yup. That is what the group concluded. Here was their reasoning:
It used to be that families raised their own children. When the economy went south and women were liberated (funny how this happened at the same time), people had to find childcare outside the home. Since the extended family had long been in decline and the grandparents were in nursing homes instead of the traditional extended family farmhouse, the dual income couple had to buy their childcare from businesses. They needed the dual income to pay for both the nursing home and the day care.
This set up a situation where kids are now raised by institutions instead of families.
As the economy got worse and the workday became longer, after school programs stepped in further removing the parents from the kids. We are now at a point where parents pick up their children, drive them home, give them a bath and put them to bed. Sometimes they forget their kids names. Sometimes, they accidentally take home someone else's kids and have to exchange them the following day. One father, so obsessed with work, forgot to drop his kid off at daycare and left him the car all day (this is sadly a true story). The child cooked to death.
When the institutionally raised, unempathethic child starts to rebel from the absentee parents, as all teens do, the parents simply do what they always have done. They hire an institution to take care of the child. Because they never really were parents, they do not know any other way. These wealthy, hard working, corporate ladder climbers are too busy with their portfolios and their careers to really check into what is going on in with the kids. They also get bragging rights about sending the kids to boarding school just like the wealthy, old-money New England set. And, it gets the little fuckers out of the way.
"Either that," as one 74-year-old (whose son is a policeman and daughter is serving in Iraq) said, "or they are just plain stupid!"
So I asked them the $64,000 question. "What should a struggling parent do when their teen is so out of control that the parents feel that the teen's life is in danger and so are the siblings' lives and so are the parents' lives?" I took a deep breath.
After they stopped laughing, they made remarks like; "Isn't every teenager's life in danger." and "It's amazing any of us survived the stunts we pulled as teenagers."
A 61-year-old confessed. He said his son smoked pot and drank and constantly broke curfew. I asked him, "What did you do?" He said he never gave his son keys to the car or the house, ever. So, when his son broke curfew, he would lock up the house. The boy had to ring the doorbell to wake Dad up and let him in. The father would go to the door, smell his breath, check for red eyes, and demand a convincing explanation as to why he could not make it home. If the explanation was not good enough, he told the boy, "I hope you enjoy staying at at a friend's tonight." He closed the door. Once, his son, in a fit of adolescent rage at not being allowed in, threw a rock through the living room window. The father called the police. The boy spent the night in juvenile hall. The father picked him up the next day and dropped the charges. The son never broke curfew again. He did, however, continue to smoke pot and drink once in a while. As the father said, "Didn't we all?" We raised our beers and drank.
I asked, "What if your teenager is having sex?" The quick response was, "Show me a teenager not having sex and I'll show you an ugly teenager." Some said they would assist in getting the teen started. Ooookaaay...
I asked them directly what they thought of such programs. Most shrugged. One man muttered, "So that's how they turn kids into Republicans." Another said, "It's a great scam! You run a cult and don't have to recruit. Parents pay you to take their kids and make them members! Why didn't I think of it?"
Then we thought of an even better scam. We would open our own facility. But instead of tough-love, we'd just keep the kids high and happy all the time and send letters to their parents like:
Dear Programmed Parent,
Your child has not yet progressed enough to allow us to let you speak to them or see them. They are making good progress, though, and we feel your child deserves a reward. We suggest you send an iPod or xBox to show your kid how much you really care and encourage further progress. By the way, your child needs new sneakers. In order to instill a good sense of self-esteem and enforce the requirement that our students be well dressed and behaved, we would like you to send a new pair of expensive Nike's in your child's size (or just send the money and we will buy them). If you wish to make a further donation to refurbish the basketball court, it would be greatly appreciated by the children and staff.
Keep in mind that any attempt to contact your child will harm his or her progress and almost certainly lead to death, arrest, or drug addiction. We will keep you fully informed of your little darling's progress.
Sincerely,
Your child's Therapist.
If a suspicious parent tried to get their kid back, we would meet them at the door, hand the kid over, and never let the parents come inside. If they noticed that their child was high, drunk, and perhaps pregnant, we would inform them that the little brat never worked the program and we were going to kick them out, anyway.
We would hold group therapy sessions where the kids would be required to confess every dirty secret they knew about their parents (for potential blackmail income), and everything they hate about parents, school, society, authority, Britney Spears, whatever. This would be greatly entertaining and therapeutic for everyone involved.
Once a month we would have each student pack their dirty laundry and ship it home for the parents to wash, dry and return neatly folded. We would explain to the parents that this practice is to remind them that they are ultimately responsible for the care and upbringing of their kids. Failure to comply will result in being sued for child abandonment.
We would require the parents to send an allowance to the kids so they could learn the value of managing money and gain self-esteem by taking control over their own finances. We would, of course, skim a percentage. And we would set up a store to sell the kids stuff kids want.
My bowling buddies went on like this for awhile, but then wives began calling. Eye lids began drooping and we realized it was time to go home.
-
Well Good conversation, still glade I threw it out there. I would still suggest digging a little deeper. I believe, although not an expert on any PDD, Aspergers typically have higher I.Q. and social interaction problems, (Reading body language, noticing if someone is upset etc) and are typically heavily fixated on one physical item (Cars,door-knobs, trains etc). I think we merely scratched the surface on this. Nile could help us a little.
-
Niles
why can't you answer this question?
On 2005-09-29 04:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Why does this logic for validity work for you when you talk about the horrors in some behavior modification schools, but does not when you talk about the evidence of God and the life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ? "
"
-
Atomic Ant,
That was great!!! Your bowlin buddies were rigth on the mark.
-
On 2005-09-29 18:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Niles
why can't you answer this question?
On 2005-09-29 04:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why does this logic for validity work for you when you talk about the horrors in some behavior modification schools, but does not when you talk about the evidence of God and the life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ? "
An ongoing event that can be investigated at any time with living witnesses is much different than an event that happened 2000 years ago, and there are no living witnesses.
Everybody's story with these programs match up. They manage to match up even though they're separated by time and distance. Yet, in the bible, the aspostles seem to disagree on various points, plus the whole thing could have been falsified.
N/hh
-
On 2005-09-29 18:17:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"We seem to have strayed from the topic at hand which was:
Why Are Struggling Parents Such An Easy Mark?
I want to return to it. I decided to ask some other experts in the field of teen development and queried my bowling buddies. These guys have all been married since I was wearing diapers and have grown children and/or teens of their own. It took me a long time to convince them that teen escorts actually existed. They were aghast and said things like, "No way can that be legal!" and "Not in this country!" One suggested he'd like to find a program for his wife.
After getting through this initial astonishment, I turned to the topic above and asked them the same question. The result was interesting and amusing.
Dual income families are to blame. Yup. That is what the group concluded. Here was their reasoning:
It used to be that families raised their own children. When the economy went south and women were liberated (funny how this happened at the same time), people had to find childcare outside the home. Since the extended family had long been in decline and the grandparents were in nursing homes instead of the traditional extended family farmhouse, the dual income couple had to buy their childcare from businesses. They needed the dual income to pay for both the nursing home and the day care.
This set up a situation where kids are now raised by institutions instead of families.
As the economy got worse and the workday became longer, after school programs stepped in further removing the parents from the kids. We are now at a point where parents pick up their children, drive them home, give them a bath and put them to bed. Sometimes they forget their kids names. Sometimes, they accidentally take home someone else's kids and have to exchange them the following day. One father, so obsessed with work, forgot to drop his kid off at daycare and left him the car all day (this is sadly a true story). The child cooked to death.
When the institutionally raised, unempathethic child starts to rebel from the absentee parents, as all teens do, the parents simply do what they always have done. They hire an institution to take care of the child. Because they never really were parents, they do not know any other way. These wealthy, hard working, corporate ladder climbers are too busy with their portfolios and their careers to really check into what is going on in with the kids. They also get bragging rights about sending the kids to boarding school just like the wealthy, old-money New England set. And, it gets the little fuckers out of the way.
"Either that," as one 74-year-old (whose son is a policeman and daughter is serving in Iraq) said, "or they are just plain stupid!"
So I asked them the $64,000 question. "What should a struggling parent do when their teen is so out of control that the parents feel that the teen's life is in danger and so are the siblings' lives and so are the parents' lives?" I took a deep breath.
After they stopped laughing, they made remarks like; "Isn't every teenager's life in danger." and "It's amazing any of us survived the stunts we pulled as teenagers."
A 61-year-old confessed. He said his son smoked pot and drank and constantly broke curfew. I asked him, "What did you do?" He said he never gave his son keys to the car or the house, ever. So, when his son broke curfew, he would lock up the house. The boy had to ring the doorbell to wake Dad up and let him in. The father would go to the door, smell his breath, check for red eyes, and demand a convincing explanation as to why he could not make it home. If the explanation was not good enough, he told the boy, "I hope you enjoy staying at at a friend's tonight." He closed the door. Once, his son, in a fit of adolescent rage at not being allowed in, threw a rock through the living room window. The father called the police. The boy spent the night in juvenile hall. The father picked him up the next day and dropped the charges. The son never broke curfew again. He did, however, continue to smoke pot and drink once in a while. As the father said, "Didn't we all?" We raised our beers and drank.
I asked, "What if your teenager is having sex?" The quick response was, "Show me a teenager not having sex and I'll show you an ugly teenager." Some said they would assist in getting the teen started. Ooookaaay...
I asked them directly what they thought of such programs. Most shrugged. One man muttered, "So that's how they turn kids into Republicans." Another said, "It's a great scam! You run a cult and don't have to recruit. Parents pay you to take their kids and make them members! Why didn't I think of it?"
Then we thought of an even better scam. We would open our own facility. But instead of tough-love, we'd just keep the kids high and happy all the time and send letters to their parents like:
Dear Programmed Parent,
Your child has not yet progressed enough to allow us to let you speak to them or see them. They are making good progress, though, and we feel your child deserves a reward. We suggest you send an iPod or xBox to show your kid how much you really care and encourage further progress. By the way, your child needs new sneakers. In order to instill a good sense of self-esteem and enforce the requirement that our students be well dressed and behaved, we would like you to send a new pair of expensive Nike's in your child's size (or just send the money and we will buy them). If you wish to make a further donation to refurbish the basketball court, it would be greatly appreciated by the children and staff.
Keep in mind that any attempt to contact your child will harm his or her progress and almost certainly lead to death, arrest, or drug addiction. We will keep you fully informed of your little darling's progress.
Sincerely,
Your child's Therapist.
If a suspicious parent tried to get their kid back, we would meet them at the door, hand the kid over, and never let the parents come inside. If they noticed that their child was high, drunk, and perhaps pregnant, we would inform them that the little brat never worked the program and we were going to kick them out, anyway.
We would hold group therapy sessions where the kids would be required to confess every dirty secret they knew about their parents (for potential blackmail income), and everything they hate about parents, school, society, authority, Britney Spears, whatever. This would be greatly entertaining and therapeutic for everyone involved.
Once a month we would have each student pack their dirty laundry and ship it home for the parents to wash, dry and return neatly folded. We would explain to the parents that this practice is to remind them that they are ultimately responsible for the care and upbringing of their kids. Failure to comply will result in being sued for child abandonment.
We would require the parents to send an allowance to the kids so they could learn the value of managing money and gain self-esteem by taking control over their own finances. We would, of course, skim a percentage. And we would set up a store to sell the kids stuff kids want.
My bowling buddies went on like this for awhile, but then wives began calling. Eye lids began drooping and we realized it was time to go home."
The conflict I felt between delight at this rich dialogue and contempt at their invalid conclusions insired me to coin a new term:
WITTIOT! :rofl:
You heard it here first, folks----
-
On 2005-09-29 18:17:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"We seem to have strayed from the topic at hand which was:
Why Are Struggling Parents Such An Easy Mark?
I want to return to it. I decided to ask some other experts in the field of teen development and queried my bowling buddies. These guys have all been married since I was wearing diapers and have grown children and/or teens of their own. It took me a long time to convince them that teen escorts actually existed. They were aghast and said things like, "No way can that be legal!" and "Not in this country!" One suggested he'd like to find a program for his wife.
After getting through this initial astonishment, I turned to the topic above and asked them the same question. The result was interesting and amusing.
Dual income families are to blame. Yup. That is what the group concluded. Here was their reasoning:
It used to be that families raised their own children. When the economy went south and women were liberated (funny how this happened at the same time), people had to find childcare outside the home. Since the extended family had long been in decline and the grandparents were in nursing homes instead of the traditional extended family farmhouse, the dual income couple had to buy their childcare from businesses. They needed the dual income to pay for both the nursing home and the day care.
This set up a situation where kids are now raised by institutions instead of families.
As the economy got worse and the workday became longer, after school programs stepped in further removing the parents from the kids. We are now at a point where parents pick up their children, drive them home, give them a bath and put them to bed. Sometimes they forget their kids names. Sometimes, they accidentally take home someone else's kids and have to exchange them the following day. One father, so obsessed with work, forgot to drop his kid off at daycare and left him the car all day (this is sadly a true story). The child cooked to death.
When the institutionally raised, unempathethic child starts to rebel from the absentee parents, as all teens do, the parents simply do what they always have done. They hire an institution to take care of the child. Because they never really were parents, they do not know any other way. These wealthy, hard working, corporate ladder climbers are too busy with their portfolios and their careers to really check into what is going on in with the kids. They also get bragging rights about sending the kids to boarding school just like the wealthy, old-money New England set. And, it gets the little fuckers out of the way.
"Either that," as one 74-year-old (whose son is a policeman and daughter is serving in Iraq) said, "or they are just plain stupid!"
So I asked them the $64,000 question. "What should a struggling parent do when their teen is so out of control that the parents feel that the teen's life is in danger and so are the siblings' lives and so are the parents' lives?" I took a deep breath.
After they stopped laughing, they made remarks like; "Isn't every teenager's life in danger." and "It's amazing any of us survived the stunts we pulled as teenagers."
A 61-year-old confessed. He said his son smoked pot and drank and constantly broke curfew. I asked him, "What did you do?" He said he never gave his son keys to the car or the house, ever. So, when his son broke curfew, he would lock up the house. The boy had to ring the doorbell to wake Dad up and let him in. The father would go to the door, smell his breath, check for red eyes, and demand a convincing explanation as to why he could not make it home. If the explanation was not good enough, he told the boy, "I hope you enjoy staying at at a friend's tonight." He closed the door. Once, his son, in a fit of adolescent rage at not being allowed in, threw a rock through the living room window. The father called the police. The boy spent the night in juvenile hall. The father picked him up the next day and dropped the charges. The son never broke curfew again. He did, however, continue to smoke pot and drink once in a while. As the father said, "Didn't we all?" We raised our beers and drank.
I asked, "What if your teenager is having sex?" The quick response was, "Show me a teenager not having sex and I'll show you an ugly teenager." Some said they would assist in getting the teen started. Ooookaaay...
I asked them directly what they thought of such programs. Most shrugged. One man muttered, "So that's how they turn kids into Republicans." Another said, "It's a great scam! You run a cult and don't have to recruit. Parents pay you to take their kids and make them members! Why didn't I think of it?"
Then we thought of an even better scam. We would open our own facility. But instead of tough-love, we'd just keep the kids high and happy all the time and send letters to their parents like:
Dear Programmed Parent,
Your child has not yet progressed enough to allow us to let you speak to them or see them. They are making good progress, though, and we feel your child deserves a reward. We suggest you send an iPod or xBox to show your kid how much you really care and encourage further progress. By the way, your child needs new sneakers. In order to instill a good sense of self-esteem and enforce the requirement that our students be well dressed and behaved, we would like you to send a new pair of expensive Nike's in your child's size (or just send the money and we will buy them). If you wish to make a further donation to refurbish the basketball court, it would be greatly appreciated by the children and staff.
Keep in mind that any attempt to contact your child will harm his or her progress and almost certainly lead to death, arrest, or drug addiction. We will keep you fully informed of your little darling's progress.
Sincerely,
Your child's Therapist.
If a suspicious parent tried to get their kid back, we would meet them at the door, hand the kid over, and never let the parents come inside. If they noticed that their child was high, drunk, and perhaps pregnant, we would inform them that the little brat never worked the program and we were going to kick them out, anyway.
We would hold group therapy sessions where the kids would be required to confess every dirty secret they knew about their parents (for potential blackmail income), and everything they hate about parents, school, society, authority, Britney Spears, whatever. This would be greatly entertaining and therapeutic for everyone involved.
Once a month we would have each student pack their dirty laundry and ship it home for the parents to wash, dry and return neatly folded. We would explain to the parents that this practice is to remind them that they are ultimately responsible for the care and upbringing of their kids. Failure to comply will result in being sued for child abandonment.
We would require the parents to send an allowance to the kids so they could learn the value of managing money and gain self-esteem by taking control over their own finances. We would, of course, skim a percentage. And we would set up a store to sell the kids stuff kids want.
My bowling buddies went on like this for awhile, but then wives began calling. Eye lids began drooping and we realized it was time to go home."
Damn, this is great! Well done AA and Company, you guys put those WWASPIE Cheerleaders and other Program Weenies to shame.
:nworthy:
-
I was curious about something. (For the record, I myself hate behavior mod and emotional growth schools.) I would really love to ask atomicAnt's friends, what would they do if their child was depressed and suicidal, and had already attempted suicide once or twice? Mental hospitals can help in some cases, but really don't in terms of helping a teen grow socially, and can make a kid depressed even more because they are under lock and key and around low-functioning people, and behavior mod schools don't address the problem, they just brainwash your kid into thinking they don't have an issue anymore. (If "successful".)
"Smacking some sense" into them isn't going to work. That's just going to make them feel shittier and more worthless and feed into their belief that they should die. Obviously, the kid has problems outside that of a normal teen, so what would you do? You obviously don't want to end up with a dead kid, you know?
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On 2005-09-30 02:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I was curious about something. (For the record, I myself hate behavior mod and emotional growth schools.) I would really love to ask atomicAnt's friends, what would they do if their child was depressed and suicidal, and had already attempted suicide once or twice? Mental hospitals can help in some cases, but really don't in terms of helping a teen grow socially, and can make a kid depressed even more because they are under lock and key and around low-functioning people, and behavior mod schools don't address the problem, they just brainwash your kid into thinking they don't have an issue anymore. (If "successful".)
"Smacking some sense" into them isn't going to work. That's just going to make them feel shittier and more worthless and feed into their belief that they should die. Obviously, the kid has problems outside that of a normal teen, so what would you do? You obviously don't want to end up with a dead kid, you know?"
This may come as a great shock to you, but only children who are at risk of harming themselves or another, or are psychotic, should be placed in a locked institution (psychiatric hospital or 24 hour acute care residential treatment center) where according to adolescent behavioral healthcase experts, most kids can be stablized in about 90 days (3 months) and sent home to continue out-patient therapy.
These long term behavior mod programs are nothing more than locked institutions that specialize in keeping non-compliant kids under control. These types of programs are often ruled by fear and intimidation to encourage the youths to submit to the will of their "family leaders". They are basically private prisons.
What's really disturbing is there are kids in these behavior mod warehouses who really DO need help and are at serious risk of harm for lack of proper diagnoses, care and treatment (no, being sent to isolation or made to clean toilets does not qualify as care and/or treatment).
Hope this helps answer your question.
:smokin:
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Right on. Great answer.
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On 2005-09-30 06:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
What's really disturbing is there are kids in these behavior mod warehouses who really DO need help and are at serious risk of harm for lack of proper diagnoses, care and treatment (no, being sent to isolation or made to clean toilets does not qualify as care and/or treatment)."
As a former inmate of one of these prisons (cedu), I must say that you really hit the
nail on the head with this last statement.
I couldn't agree with you more.
I knew at least 4 kids from my time at cedu who graduated singing praises of the program, only to go on and commit suicide within a
year of getting out. That made no sense to me: Why would someone kill themselves after they supposedly just spent 2 and 1/2 years being "helped" and guided "to lead
long and successful lives" ?
If cedu school really cared about these kids (instead of profits), then why couldn't the school recognize the potential suicide risk in these kids, after 2-1/2 years
of constant observation and "therapy"?
There is no excuse, Cedu could've recognized these risks if they only cared enough to do so.
It also wouldn't have hurt if the school actually hired staff who were qualified to make such assessments.
The real tragedy is that for the outrageous amounts of money Cedu scammed from their
parents, all 4 of my friends could've received top notch help for their problems from the best and most qualified psychologists in the business.
Had this happened, then these kids would most likely still be alive to day.
What a Tragic waste of time, money, and ultimately these poor kid's lives.
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They're easy marks because there are so many of them. You know the ols saying "There's a sucker born every minute."
They relentlessly pitch the program to as many as possible, and a small fraction bite.
I'll give you an example in a different context. I used to bartend and one of the "regulars," a fairly nice, normal guy, was complaing to me that he just never got laid. I asked him "How many women have you asked to have sex with you?" His reply was "Well, none." I advised this young man to come in on Friday night and meet some women, talk to them and, just to see what happens, ask them if they wanted to have sex with him. At around 11:00pm after he asked several dozen women if they'd like to have sex with him, I saw him leaving with a fairly nice looking woman and a wry smile. The next day I asked him how it went and he reported that he did indeed get lucky.
The point: Try your pitch enough times and you'll get a taker.
There are SO MANY "struggling parents" out there that a certain percentage are shiftless, gullible, idealistic, lazy, have money and will buy a program. Remember, "program kids" represent only a tiny fraction of all kids.
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Keep this in mind about Easy Marks -
Now you may get what you want -
but later -
you won't want what you got.
Tina Tuner
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On 2005-09-30 10:53:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
There are SO MANY "struggling parents" out there that a certain percentage are shiftless, gullible, idealistic, lazy, have money and will buy a program. Remember, "program kids" represent only a tiny fraction of all kids.
"
I agree and its refreshing to hear, so the majority of "Struggling Parents" are doing the right thing, resolving their issues at home, therapy etc., and a small fraction who have exhausted all other options (or girls at the bar) will send their kids to a TBS in hopes they will be saved. Thank you , it seems to be all to common to bash the Struggling parents".
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Yeah, in a nutshell, the same reason balding men are such easy marks for hair growth producs. It's just another kind miraculous snake oil.
I should add, too, and probably more often, that I don't really want to insult people who have fallen for the scam. My own parents did, after all, and plenty of other good people. It's just that I care far less about your feelings than about giving prospective marks the heads up.
Psychedelics often produce psychotic and even violent behavior in those who have never used them.
--Timothy Leary
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On 2005-09-30 16:27:00, Antigen wrote:
"Yeah, in a nutshell, the same reason balding men are such easy marks for hair growth producs. It's just another kind miraculous snake oil.
I should add, too, and probably more often, that I don't really want to insult people who have fallen for the scam. My own parents did, after all, and plenty of other good people. It's just that I care far less about your feelings than about giving prospective marks the heads up.
Psychedelics often produce psychotic and even violent behavior in those who have never used them.
--Timothy Leary
"
Well....yes, Antigen, I would agree, good people looking for solutions to problems. Balding men looking for special tonic, or maybe a transplant if they can afford it. If they do enough research they may find an answer that fits their particular problem and one that they can afford. A parent with a suicidal child may not want to send him or her to a boot camp, for example, in shackles. A father who wakes up to see his 3 year old daughter walking around with a hyperdermic which was left on the floor in the hallway and 2 strange people passed out in the basement may not want to wait for family therapy to take hold. Something needs to be done quickly and weeks of research may not be a smart choice. The stakes are high now with HIV and who knows what else is on the horizon and someone needs to protect the other members of the family. If you kick the son or daughter out would not be responsible, there are programs designed to help. They are not all bad
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Which ones are "good" then? Please tell us.
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On 2005-09-30 06:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-30 02:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I was curious about something. (For the record, I myself hate behavior mod and emotional growth schools.) I would really love to ask atomicAnt's friends, what would they do if their child was depressed and suicidal, and had already attempted suicide once or twice? Mental hospitals can help in some cases, but really don't in terms of helping a teen grow socially, and can make a kid depressed even more because they are under lock and key and around low-functioning people, and behavior mod schools don't address the problem, they just brainwash your kid into thinking they don't have an issue anymore. (If "successful".)
"Smacking some sense" into them isn't going to work. That's just going to make them feel shittier and more worthless and feed into their belief that they should die. Obviously, the kid has problems outside that of a normal teen, so what would you do? You obviously don't want to end up with a dead kid, you know?"
This may come as a great shock to you, but only children who are at risk of harming themselves or another, or are psychotic, should be placed in a locked institution (psychiatric hospital or 24 hour acute care residential treatment center) where according to adolescent behavioral healthcase experts, most kids can be stablized in about 90 days (3 months) and sent home to continue out-patient therapy.
These long term behavior mod programs are nothing more than locked institutions that specialize in keeping non-compliant kids under control. These types of programs are often ruled by fear and intimidation to encourage the youths to submit to the will of their "family leaders". They are basically private prisons.
What's really disturbing is there are kids in these behavior mod warehouses who really DO need help and are at serious risk of harm for lack of proper diagnoses, care and treatment (no, being sent to isolation or made to clean toilets does not qualify as care and/or treatment).
Hope this helps answer your question.
:smokin:
"
This sounds good. The problem was when I was sent away, suicidal teens were put in mental institutions for far far longer than 90 days. Try "indefinite".
I'm not arguing with you. I certainly believe that behavior mod places are NOT the places for ANY teen whatsoever. I was just curious what is the true course of action for suicidal ones who have true problems. I was a suicide risk, had tried it twice, and was also a severe discipline problem to boot. So you had the depression/bipolar thing going on with anger issues, suicidal tendencies and discipline problems. They were basically ready to send me to a mental hospital and have me put in lithium. But instead, they sent me to one of the CEDU schools. I have no idea how long they had planned to keep me at the hospital, however. Back then, the hospital stays could be just as long.
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On 2005-09-30 18:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Which ones are "good" then? Please tell us."
We have heard of some relatively good places, Swift River, For example. There hasnt been alot of negative reporting from them, SUWS? Maybe? Any suggestions?
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Surely you jest!! Swift River Academy? No way.
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... A parent with a suicidal child may not want to send him or her to a boot camp, for example, in shackles.
Maybe that parent should wonder why the kid is suicidal and what caused it. Suicidal thoughts and actions are not the total diagnosis - there are things that led to it. And you may not want to hear it, but maybe you should look closer as to what caused the suicidal ideation. Lack of a program doesn't cause the symptoms. When you get a headache, are you deficient in aspirin or Tylenol?
A father who wakes up to see his 3 year old daughter walking around with a hyperdermic which was left on the floor in the hallway and 2 strange people passed out in the basement may not want to wait for family therapy to take hold.
Something needs to be done quickly and weeks of research may not be a smart choice. The stakes are high now with HIV and who knows what else is on the horizon and someone needs to protect the other members of the family. If you kick the son or daughter out would not be responsible, there are programs designed to help. They are not all bad"
Ok, here it comes... the CLUE BY FOUR! If your son/daughter who is now a parent and is deliberately putting their child in danger, these programs aren't gonna help ya. Above all, they're a farce. Then comes the fact that they won't usually admit someone over the age of eighteen. If your son/daughter with the problem is in fact under eighteen, most state laws have special exceptions of custody if the minor child has children. These (cough) programs can't take them either. Doesn't mean that they may not really try though - especially if you're paying cash.
Now there's probably some cult out there that I've missed - one that will accept an adult with children ... for a very steep "tuition". But Hmmmm ... lemme think here....
I know! HOW ABOUT A LEGITIMATE TREATMENT CENTER?!
You know... where the director has a medical license and the staff at least hold Masters degrees in Psychology from accredited universities?? A place Where progress is monitored according to accepted professional standards and not by how many times the subject had to have been "taken down" by the "peer group", maybe?
Talk about "easy marks"... brother, you are about to become the poster child!
Wise up!
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You obviously haven't used the Search WWF function on the left.
Not a thing in the world wrong with ASR, provided your comfortable with your kids 'ODD' behavior being modified by ODD adults. The lame ass state agency won't go in, assess the services provided, and force them to apply for licensure. No outside agency is monitoring and regulating these mavericks.
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On 2005-09-30 18:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Which ones are "good" then? Please tell us."
Thats a trick question.
1. Its nobody's responsibility to tell you what programs are good! When theyre abusive or ineffective, and we know about it, we're gonna be pissed off, becuase most people here were in a program and abused or are the parents of one. Me and a few others found out about it without being personally involved, but still care.
2. Programs are not proven to be necessary OR EFFECTIVE!
3. We got by fine before, when there were none, and we'll do fine without them when they go away, just like MOST people do now ANYWAY!
4. There is no guarantee that there are any good, effective, non abusive programs. While there MAY BE, the burden of proof is on the program to show that it is good, effective, and non abusive, and on the medical professionals (not the salesmen or you...) to prove that the child not only has problems, but needs THAT kind of help, and that program can safely provide it.
You find me a program that isnt based on coersion, punishment, humiliation or LGAs, and Id tell you that you showed me a mislabeled SCHOOL.
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
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On 2005-09-30 21:47:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
If your son/daughter who is now a parent and is deliberately putting their child in danger, these programs aren't gonna help ya.
Lets back up, I read the story as a parent/care taker who has young children in the house with an out of conrol teenager who is leaving hyperdermics around for their brothers and sisters to step on/pick-up. If this is the situation, I agree, the kid with the hyperdermic needs to be removed and isolated to protect the other family members (and the kid himself/herself)
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On 2005-09-30 22:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You obviously haven't used the Search WWF function on the left.
Not a thing in the world wrong with ASR, provided your comfortable with your kids 'ODD' behavior being modified by ODD adults. The lame ass state agency won't go in, assess the services provided, and force them to apply for licensure. No outside agency is monitoring and regulating these mavericks.
"
I have searched it for ASR, Swift river and found relatively nothing compared to some of the other places. I have read enough here to know that if ASR has forced one child to miss one breakfast there would be abuse allegations left and right on this site and I dont see any of that.
As far as monitoring and regulation -- Its not the schools fault, would you want to be monitored or regulated. If you were driving home and you saw a sign "Voluntary breathalizer tests 500 feet ahead" how amny people would pull over? Would you study and take a drivers test unless you had to to get a license, probably not.
Like everyone else the schools probably feel they are doing a good job and dont seek out regulation
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On 2005-09-30 16:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-30 10:53:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
There are SO MANY "struggling parents" out there that a certain percentage are shiftless, gullible, idealistic, lazy, have money and will buy a program. Remember, "program kids" represent only a tiny fraction of all kids.
"
I agree and its refreshing to hear, so the majority of "Struggling Parents" are doing the right thing, resolving their issues at home, therapy etc., and a small fraction who have exhausted all other options (or girls at the bar) will send their kids to a TBS in hopes they will be saved. Thank you , it seems to be all to common to bash the Struggling parents"."
How one responds to adversity is a direct measure of one's character. Believe me when I tell you, there is NOBODY on this board who vilifies "Struggling Parents" who have dug in and fought for their children's lives.
Those who get "bashed" here are the ones who gave up on their kids, shirked their responsibilities, failed to safeguard the welfare of their children, contibuted to or caused their kids' problems and subsequently blamed them for it, suckers who buy useless, ineffective, hurtful, damaging programs, those who vehemently defend the afore-described, and some others not otherwise specified.
It disturbs me deeply that many parents have abdicated all responsibility for the rearing of their offspring. I'm mad as hell and I'm surely not going to shut up about it.
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To refer to BM warehouses as 'schools' is deceptive at best. SCHOOLS don't assume the parental role 24/7/365 for two or three years and determine if and when their charges can have contact with their parents and siblings. SCHOOLS don't force student to attend group therapy and harshly punish teens for minor infractions. SCHOOLS don't deny food/water or subject teens to excessive exercise or physical restraint as punishment. Therefore, schools aren't required to hold a license and surrender to monitoring for violations of regs.
Any parent who considers a program should look carefully at the methods used and have them analyzed by an independent expert. Problem is, parents don't know what methods are being employed until after their child is enrolled because it's not spelled out in the information provided to parents. Further, parents may never know the details of how their child is being conditioned, how their behavior is being modified, because contact is limited and monitored.
Programs avoid regulations and monitoring because many of their methods would not be allowed.
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REAL Boarding schools feed, clothe, and educate.
If a program doesnt do the program bullshit, then its basically just a boarding school without any education :razz:
The other thing is that Id dare you to find ANY program that didnt just use the bootcamp model, or LGA seminars? But hey, that would just be a SCHOOL *CALLED* a program.We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore.
Mark Twain
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Since when does a boarding school clothe the kids? Don't think so!
Emotional Growth Schools are just that- schools that feed, educate and attend to the emotional growth of the students. There are many programs that do not severely punish the kids for minor offenses. There are often good therapeutic reasons for limiting contact with the families. The family dynamics have been destroyed and there is a re-building process.
Dysfunction and Nihil- do you guys have a purpose in life?
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On 2005-10-01 12:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Since when does a boarding school clothe the kids? Don't think so!
Emotional Growth Schools are just that- schools that feed, educate and attend to the emotional growth of the students. There are many programs that do not severely punish the kids for minor offenses. There are often good therapeutic reasons for limiting contact with the families. The family dynamics have been destroyed and there is a re-building process.
Dysfunction and Nihil- do you guys have a purpose in life?"
What kind of stupid question is that?
Name the programs that you think are good ones. Let's begin there.
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On 2005-10-01 12:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Since when does a boarding school clothe the kids? Don't think so!
Well, I don't know what's included with today's tuitions, but boarding schools in New England in the 70s and 80s included the uniform in the tuition. Since you were required to wear the school uniform, you're essentially clothed by the school, no?
Emotional Growth Schools are just that- schools that feed, educate and attend to the emotional growth of the students. There are many programs that do not severely punish the kids for minor offenses. There are often good therapeutic reasons for limiting contact with the families. The family dynamics have been destroyed and there is a re-building process.
Dysfunction and Nihil- do you guys have a purpose in life?"
Then why is it that most of these programs are severely lacking in the "education" department? What do you suppose it does to a kid who's supposedly "Graduated", and they hit the real world to find out their "Diploma" is worthless since these "Schools" aren't accredited?
The best "Emotional Growth" is the real world.
And before you ask me what my purpose in life is - I have lots of them, but I don't see how they're relevant to this forum, unless you just want to get into a pissing match... if that's the case, I'll be here all evening - tip your bartenders and waitresses. :smile:
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I know of one, Hidden Lake Academy, that includes their uniform clothing in their tuition and fees. It might be a separate charge along with tuition, but they provide the shirts and pants for the kids and the sweatshirts and rain jackets too so I heard.
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On 2005-10-01 12:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I know of one, Hidden Lake Academy, that includes their uniform clothing in their tuition and fees. It might be a separate charge along with tuition, but they provide the shirts and pants for the kids and the sweatshirts and rain jackets too so I heard."
HLA may not be as brutal as some of the other programs, but it is still far, far from "good". Do your research. It's pretty bad, actually-- it's a CEDU off-shoot that uses the same confrontational techniques as many of the more notorious BM warehouses.
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On 2005-10-01 12:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Since when does a boarding school clothe the kids? Don't think so!
Emotional Growth Schools are just that- schools that feed, educate and attend to the emotional growth of the students. There are many programs that do not severely punish the kids for minor offenses. There are often good therapeutic reasons for limiting contact with the families. The family dynamics have been destroyed and there is a re-building process.
Dysfunction and Nihil- do you guys have a purpose in life?"
Emotional Growth is a term invented by the teen help industry for the purpose of capitalizing (profiteering) on the trend in America to label children who can not or will not meet their parents expectations/demands as EMOTIONALLY defective and/or inefficient.
It's a racket, plain and simple.
Parents who buy into this are looking for an excuse to force a label on their children that makes the child (and not them) inferior.
Once labeled with a disorder, the parent can feel good about "treating" their child with behavior modification drugs like Ritalin/Adderal OR in they are teens, shipping them off to an "emotional growth" school.
:smokin:
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Defining a "good" school, I guess is relative, depending on what you are looking for. A school which will allow a student to excel academically may be one persons definition. A school that will keep a child safe from themselves or safe from their family may be another definition and not particulary caring if it is accredited for academics at that point if the first and foremost neccessity is to remove the child from his or her Environment to keep them safe. Once the child is stabalized in a safe place, the academics and emotional growth aspects can be looked at more closely and the child may be transfered. But sometimes decisions have to be made very quickly and there may not be time to choose the best option.
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On 2005-10-01 06:04:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2005-09-30 16:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-30 10:53:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
There are SO MANY "struggling parents" out there that a certain percentage are shiftless, gullible, idealistic, lazy, have money and will buy a program. Remember, "program kids" represent only a tiny fraction of all kids.
"
I agree and its refreshing to hear, so the majority of "Struggling Parents" are doing the right thing, resolving their issues at home, therapy etc., and a small fraction who have exhausted all other options (or girls at the bar) will send their kids to a TBS in hopes they will be saved. Thank you , it seems to be all to common to bash the Struggling parents"."
How one responds to adversity is a direct measure of one's character. Believe me when I tell you, there is NOBODY on this board who vilifies "Struggling Parents" who have dug in and fought for their children's lives.
"
I agree , I dont believe many parents would put a 2nd mortgage on their house, take a second job etc, if they didnt care about their child(ren). If the parent was a creep they would pocket the money and toss the kid out without any therapy or means to support his or herself.
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On 2005-10-01 12:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I know of one, Hidden Lake Academy, that includes their uniform clothing in their tuition and fees. It might be a separate charge along with tuition, but they provide the shirts and pants for the kids and the sweatshirts and rain jackets too so I heard."
Negative. I worked there and there are no uniforms. You heard wrong. Besides, an extra charge means they DIDN'T provide anything.
As an aside, many of HLA's staff are abusive animals. The shiny wrapper hides a worm-eaten apple.
What other programs that you have experienced - not "heard about" - do you view as "good"?
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I didnt say it was a good school, I said uniform clothing was provided by the school as part of the cost of the place. I was only commenting on clothing being provided. And they do have uniforms. I know someone who worked there recently and they have golf shirts with the school's name and khaki pants for the students, and in winter they have sweatshirts with the school's name. I think the parents provided socks, underwear, coats, and shoes, etc. Maybe when you worked there they hadn't started the uniforms yet?
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http://www.hiddenlakeacademy.com/images/fine_a18.jpg (http://www.hiddenlakeacademy.com/images/fine_a18.jpg)
that is a picture of the supposedly non-existant uniform shirt.
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I'm sure this kid would be thrilled to know you're posting her picture here.
Anyway, my kid was there for two years. They did have the golf shirts and khaki pants which the parents had to pay extra for. The kids didn't have to wear those clothes all the time, though.
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As thrilled as she was when HLA posted it for the world to view. What's the big deal?
The kids are required to wear the uniforms when leaving and returning to campus. Great advertising.
Whether the uniforms are a seperate fee or it's rolled into tuition, the parent always pays. Programs may seperate different charges for tax purposes etc, but rest assured, the program pays for nothing out of their own pocket, ever. All costs are passed to the parent one way or another.
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That picture is on a public website. She doesnt have to give her permission to have it posted on this website. She already gave her permission to have it posted on the net so it's free for the taking (or cut and pasting)
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On 2005-10-01 14:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Defining a "good" school, I guess is relative, depending on what you are looking for. A school which will allow a student to excel academically may be one persons definition. A school that will keep a child safe from themselves or safe from their family may be another definition and not particulary caring if it is accredited for academics at that point if the first and foremost neccessity is to remove the child from his or her Environment to keep them safe. Once the child is stabalized in a safe place, the academics and emotional growth aspects can be looked at more closely and the child may be transfered. But sometimes decisions have to be made very quickly and there may not be time to choose the best option."
So fucking up, and blowing a few hundred words of smoke to say "its okay to make mistakes, if youre a PARENT", and then saying "we have to stand by our decision" when they find out they fucked up is what they should do, right?
Now, as far as having the child stabalized[sic] in a safe place... uh... if they're in actual danger from others, the police are responsible for that. If theyre in danger of themselves, then you need a DOCTOR, and an actual facility with professionals, not a program thats geared towards engendering conformity and submission, and I have yet to see a PROGRAM that does not do that!
So yeah, it IS a relative thing. Some people's idea of 'safety' is isolation from the rest of the world and just as long as the child isn't 'deadinsaneorinjaa-aa-aa-aa-aail' its okay that they do whatever they want to the kid, including engineering a facade of a 'magical child' who is the parents 'little kid' and burying the real problem underneith it all to only be re-exposed when the program bullshit wears off after a few years.
And, all of what I said is moot when the fact that MOST of these kids are not in danger in the first place is taken into account. But hey, when youre selling a program, you dont WANT to tell people they dont need it, do you? Nope, you want scared parents who are convinced they need to put their child (and money) in the hands of the business owners. If there is a God, he is a malign thug.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-02 03:39 ]
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On 2005-10-01 15:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://www.hiddenlakeacademy.com/images/fine_a18.jpg
that is a picture of the supposedly non-existant uniform shirt."
I didn't realize that a pullover polo was considered a "uniform" these days. That's a pretty sad "uniform" in any case. Nonetheless, you pay extra for it - it's not "provided."
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When I attended private parochial school as a teen, my parents had to pay for tuition, books and uniforms, all separate charges. Lunch was also a separate charge. What is the difference between that and therapeutic boarding schools having different charges for tuition, and clothing? I thought that was standard practice to have uniforms not included with regular tuition.
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On 2005-10-02 08:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"When I attended private parochial school as a teen, my parents had to pay for tuition, books and uniforms, all separate charges. Lunch was also a separate charge. What is the difference between that and therapeutic boarding schools having different charges for tuition, and clothing? I thought that was standard practice to have uniforms not included with regular tuition."
This whole uniform discussion is pretty trivial, really. My son is in a private K-8 school and has to wear the school uniform of pullover-polo and khaki pants. It gives us more laundry to do. We tolerate it because our son likes his school and his friends there. Philosophically, I don't care much for uniforms.
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The conflict I felt between delight at this rich dialogue and contempt at their invalid conclusions insired me to coin a new term:
WITTIOT! :rofl:
You heard it here first, folks----"
You found conclusions? My bowling buddies were just making fun of the whole thing (and me). The dialogue was entirely tongue-in-cheek.
I wrote the post because I found it interesting how alien the concept of 'programs' was to this group of men. These guys are all in their 60s and 70s and have grown children. They are blue coller guys without the money to send their kids into expensive programs. They are mostly veterans. They are the kind of guys who believe in the 'school of hard knocks.'
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On 2005-10-02 08:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"When I attended private parochial school as a teen, my parents had to pay for tuition, books and uniforms, all separate charges. Lunch was also a separate charge. What is the difference between that and therapeutic boarding schools having different charges for tuition, and clothing? I thought that was standard practice to have uniforms not included with regular tuition."
The uniform argument is trivial. The real argument here is what constitutes a SCHOOL. Just because you amass a group of kids, throw them in uniforms and make them behave - it does not make your little group a SCHOOL.
The fact that these "emotional growth" places call themselves SCHOOLS is the FIRST reason why (check the title of the thread) struggling parents are such an easy mark.
Parents who seek out this stuff actually believe their failing student will graduate from one of these SCHOOLS, and waltz into Harvard. Ain't gonna happen.
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Well- seems a lot of kids from Oakley and Carlbrook are attending some top colleges or private high schools post-program. I know this for a fact- where are you getting your information that the academics are worthless?
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On 2005-09-30 02:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I was curious about something. (For the record, I myself hate behavior mod and emotional growth schools.) I would really love to ask atomicAnt's friends, what would they do if their child was depressed and suicidal, and had already attempted suicide once or twice? Mental hospitals can help in some cases, but really don't in terms of helping a teen grow socially, and can make a kid depressed even more because they are under lock and key and around low-functioning people, and behavior mod schools don't address the problem, they just brainwash your kid into thinking they don't have an issue anymore. (If "successful".)
"Smacking some sense" into them isn't going to work. That's just going to make them feel shittier and more worthless and feed into their belief that they should die. Obviously, the kid has problems outside that of a normal teen, so what would you do? You obviously don't want to end up with a dead kid, you know?"
My buddies are more compassionate than my post might suggest. One of them has a daughter that suffers from depression. She was diagnosed as 'clinically' not 'situationally' depressed. She spent a few weeks in a hospital and had to have therapy and medication through her teen years into her early twenties. It was difficult for the family to deal with. The daughter is now all grown up with kids of her own and doing fine.
I phoned one up and he basically said that as parents we have to realize that at some point in their lives, our kids will make their own decisions and their own mistakes. We can give them advice and guidance and hope they listen, but we can't live for them. At some point, you have to let it go.
He then said, "Ant, get off the fucking computer and go outside and play with your kid!"
So I am going to take that advice and go play. Bye for today, y'all.
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On 2005-10-02 09:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well- seems a lot of kids from Oakley and Carlbrook are attending some top colleges or private high schools post-program. I know this for a fact- where are you getting your information that the academics are worthless?"
I don't have time to search for the post, but someone from a WWASPs school some months ago found out their "Diploma" was worthless. I can't remember all the details, but I believe this girl actually had to sit for the GED when she supposedly thought she graduated.
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On 2005-10-02 09:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well- seems a lot of kids from Oakley and Carlbrook are attending some top colleges or private high schools post-program. I know this for a fact- where are you getting your information that the academics are worthless?"
From the "students" who's unaccredited diplomas couldn't get them into college without mommy and daddy funding a new wing of the library or building a field house.
The diplomas are worth NOTHING from unaccredited schools with unlicensed faculty.
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He then said, "Ant, get off the fucking computer and go outside and play with your kid!"
So I am going to take that advice and go play. Bye for today, y'all."
Why, Ant, what a novel approach! You're alright in my book, guy!
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But there are plenty of emotional growth schools where a diploma IS worth something, where you can take AP courses, SAT prep etc. and get into fine colleges.
You conveniently omit about 80% of the truth.
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On 2005-10-02 09:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But there are plenty of emotional growth schools where a diploma IS worth something, where you can take AP courses, SAT prep etc. and get into fine colleges.
You conveniently omit about 80% of the truth."
Ok, so we're unaware. Give us a list.
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On 2005-10-02 09:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But there are plenty of emotional growth schools where a diploma IS worth something, where you can take AP courses, SAT prep etc. and get into fine colleges.
You conveniently omit about 80% of the truth."
Carlbrook School
Name: Carlbrook School
Type: Boarding Schools
Address: 3046 Carlbrook RD
Halifax, VA 24592
USA
Phone: (434) 476-2406
Website: Carlbrook School website
Ages: 15 - 18
Gender: Co-Ed
Description: Carlbrook serves the needs of bright, underachieving students who have historically challenged convention and questioned authority.
Enroll Info: All students are expected to successfully complete a wilderness experience prior to matriculation on the main campus. Students typically have a WISC-III FS-IQ of 105 or higher and most will have completed at least 1 year of high school prior to enrollment.
Student Profile: Spirited students experiencing difficulty in the mainstream. Academic difficulty are diminished self-esteem, impulsivity, increased irritability at home, shifts in peer alignment, experimentation with drugs or alcohol, non-participation in organized extracurricular activities, pervasive irresponsibility, social withdrawal, lack of organizational skills and general apathy
Academics: The school year will consist of five 9-week academic periods comprising three full semesters, to correspond with tri-annual graduations. As such, most students have the opportunity to complete up to two academic years of study over the course of their 15-month education at the school.
Activities: Basketball, soccer, softball, volleyball, badminton and other team sports. Individual sports such as cross-country running, hiking, biking, aerobics and weight training.Carlbrook students are currently involved with a wide variety of local and regional organizations, including the Halifax County Humane Society, Boston Commons Nursing Home, Feed the Community, and Habitat for Humanity
Campus: School facilities include the original mansion which houses the school library, computer lab and administrative offices, a new 13,000 square foot Commons building, a kitchen and dining facility, a small infirmary, eight modern classrooms with high-speed internet access, two physical and biological science labs, a seminar/workshop facility, and two dormitory buildings.
Family Involvement: The Carlbrook School is resolute in its commitment to involve parents in as many facets of the educational experience as possible.
Length of Stay: 15-month educational model
Philosophy: Honor is the foundation of self-perception and positive self-image.
Tuition/Costs: Monthly Tuition: $4,900
_________________________________________________
$4900/mo and this place is UNACCREDITED. They have no status with any accreditation organization, not even the phony one (Northwest) used by WWASP and some others - NONE.
Tell me again how a kid can get a "diploma" from an unaccredited "school"...? Last I heard, this is called "fraud."
Ivy Ridge in NY was doing the same thing as Carlbrook - issuing "diplomas" without accreditation.
They were exposed when some "students" got rejected from colleges due to PHONY DIPLOMAS being submitted with their applications. Parents went to the Attorney General, Ivy Ridge was sued and agreed to repay over $1,000,000.00 in tuition and was ORDERED TO STOP ISSUING "DIPLOMAS" under false pretenses.
The same will happen to Carlbrook, but it takes time.
These places are TC's maquerading as "schools" so they are more palatable to prospective parents and can "justify" their incredible price tag.
If you parents are dumb enough to buy this package then you deserve what you get. Unfortunately your kids don't deserve what they're getting, but, hey, we already know you don't care about that.
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Description: Carlbrook serves the needs of bright, underachieving students who have historically challenged convention and questioned authority.
Waldo...Tango...Foxtrot !?!?!?!
NEVER Think outside the Little Boxes*, kids!
*"Little Boxes" by Pete Seeger - based on conformity.
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On 2005-10-02 09:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But there are plenty of emotional growth schools where a diploma IS worth something, where you can take AP courses, SAT prep etc. and get into fine colleges.
You conveniently omit about 80% of the truth."
You can take the ACT and SAT in WWASPS schools, too. Doesn't mean the diploma is worth anything, as the parents of Ivy Ridge prisoners recently found out and as the rest of us knew for quite some time.
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On 2005-10-02 10:06:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Description: Carlbrook serves the needs of bright, underachieving students who have historically challenged convention and questioned authority.
Waldo...Tango...Foxtrot !?!?!?!
NEVER Think outside the Little Boxes*, kids!
*"Little Boxes" by Pete Seeger - based on conformity.
"
Uh, it's WHISKEY...Tango...Foxtrot.
Ironically, it's the phonetic alphabet from the conformity factory - U.S. Armed Services. Funny.
For the intellectually challenged, or "academic underachievers" it's an acronym for "What The Fuck?"
Just messing with you, Ms. Basket... :wink:
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Uh, it's WHISKEY...Tango...Foxtrot.
Ironically, it's the phonetic alphabet from the conformity factory - U.S. Armed Services. Funny.
For the intellectually challenged, or "academic underachievers" it's an acronym for "What The Fuck?"
Just messing with you, Ms. Basket... :grin:
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On 2005-10-02 09:57:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
On 2005-10-02 09:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But there are plenty of emotional growth schools where a diploma IS worth something, where you can take AP courses, SAT prep etc. and get into fine colleges.
You conveniently omit about 80% of the truth."
Carlbrook School
Name: Carlbrook School
Type: Boarding Schools
Address: 3046 Carlbrook RD
Halifax, VA 24592
USA
Phone: (434) 476-2406
Website: Carlbrook School website
Ages: 15 - 18
Gender: Co-Ed
Description: Carlbrook serves the needs of bright, underachieving students who have historically challenged convention and questioned authority.
Enroll Info: All students are expected to successfully complete a wilderness experience prior to matriculation on the main campus. Students typically have a WISC-III FS-IQ of 105 or higher and most will have completed at least 1 year of high school prior to enrollment.
Student Profile: Spirited students experiencing difficulty in the mainstream. Academic difficulty are diminished self-esteem, impulsivity, increased irritability at home, shifts in peer alignment, experimentation with drugs or alcohol, non-participation in organized extracurricular activities, pervasive irresponsibility, social withdrawal, lack of organizational skills and general apathy
Academics: The school year will consist of five 9-week academic periods comprising three full semesters, to correspond with tri-annual graduations. As such, most students have the opportunity to complete up to two academic years of study over the course of their 15-month education at the school.
Activities: Basketball, soccer, softball, volleyball, badminton and other team sports. Individual sports such as cross-country running, hiking, biking, aerobics and weight training.Carlbrook students are currently involved with a wide variety of local and regional organizations, including the Halifax County Humane Society, Boston Commons Nursing Home, Feed the Community, and Habitat for Humanity
Campus: School facilities include the original mansion which houses the school library, computer lab and administrative offices, a new 13,000 square foot Commons building, a kitchen and dining facility, a small infirmary, eight modern classrooms with high-speed internet access, two physical and biological science labs, a seminar/workshop facility, and two dormitory buildings.
Family Involvement: The Carlbrook School is resolute in its commitment to involve parents in as many facets of the educational experience as possible.
Length of Stay: 15-month educational model
Philosophy: Honor is the foundation of self-perception and positive self-image.
Tuition/Costs: Monthly Tuition: $4,900
_________________________________________________
$4900/mo and this place is UNACCREDITED. They have no status with any accreditation organization, not even the phony one (Northwest) used by WWASP and some others - NONE.
Tell me again how a kid can get a "diploma" from an unaccredited "school"...? Last I heard, this is called "fraud."
Ivy Ridge in NY was doing the same thing as Carlbrook - issuing "diplomas" without accreditation.
They were exposed when some "students" got rejected from colleges due to PHONY DIPLOMAS being submitted with their applications. Parents went to the Attorney General, Ivy Ridge was sued and agreed to repay over $1,000,000.00 in tuition and was ORDERED TO STOP ISSUING "DIPLOMAS" under false pretenses.
The same will happen to Carlbrook, but it takes time.
These places are TC's maquerading as "schools" so they are more palatable to prospective parents and can "justify" their incredible price tag.
If you parents are dumb enough to buy this package then you deserve what you get. Unfortunately your kids don't deserve what they're getting, but, hey, we already know you don't care about that.
"
Issuing false diplomas is the fastest way to have your school shut down (academically) bad news, I imagine the kids had to retest in their own state or return to school which would suck.
My kid finished up before senior year so she just reemerged into the school system at home and did fine. Some of the kids on the brighter side of the spectrum were excepted into college based on their SAT scores. Not sure what they did for a HS diploma. Some of the other kids went for a GED when they got home.,but false diplomas thats bad
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Please keep in mind that the posters on this forum have no real knowledge of what it even means for a school to be accredited. It has nothing to do with issuing false diplomas. If a student meets the course requirements for graduation in that state (in the case of Carlbrook- Virginia), a diploma can be issued. The teachers are all very well credentialed. In the three years or so that Carlbrook has been around not one student has failed to go on to college, private school or back into the public schools. No Carlbrook credits have ever been refused. Accreditation has been applied for, by the way. It is not a rapid process.
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Yeh, those 'emotional growth diplomas' don't cut it in the real world.
Having a stint in a TB or EGS on your record can be a hinderance, just as a psych dx.
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Carlbrook- Looks like the diploma was worth something!
College Acceptances
Class of 2003-04
Acceptances represent 34 states and the District of Columbia, and included the following schools:
Agnes Scott College (5)
University of Alabama
American University (6)
Appalachian State University (3)
University of Arizona (2)
Arizona State University
Auburn University (3)
Baylor University
Birmingham-Southern College (2)
Boston University (3)
Brandeis University
University of California, Irvine (2)
University of California, Riverside (2)
University of California, Santa Barbara (2)
University of California, Santa Cruz (2)
Cal Poly, Pomona (2)
Carnegie Mellon University
Case Western Reserve University (2)
Centre College (3)
University of Cincinnati (2)
Clemson University (5)
College of Charleston (2)
Colorado College
University of Colorado, Boulder (5)
Colorado State University (2)
University of Connecticut (2)
Cornell College (2)
University of Denver
Dickinson College (2)
Earlham College
Elon University
Florida State University
Franklin and Marshall College (2)
Furman University (3)
George Mason University (3)
Georgetown University
George Washington University (2)
Georgia State University (2)
Gonzaga University
Goucher College (5)
Grinnell College
Hampden-Sydney College
Hofstra University
University of Illinois
Indiana University
Ithaca College (6)
James Madison University
Kansas State University
University of Kentucky (3)
Lawrence University
Louisiana State University (2)
Loyola College in Maryland
Loyola Marymount University
Loyola University, New Orleans (3)
University of Maine
University of Maryland
University of Massachusetts, Amherst (2)
University of Massachusetts, Dartmouth
Miami University of Ohio
Michigan State University (2)
Millsaps College (3)
University of Mississippi (5)
Mississippi State University
Mount Holyoke College (2)
New York University
University of North Carolina, Asheville (6)
University of North Carolina, Charlotte (5)
University of North Carolina, Greensboro (3)
University of North Carolina, Wilmington (2)
North Carolina State University (3)
Oberlin College
Ohio University (4)
Ohio Wesleyan University (2)
Old Dominion University (3)
University of Oregon
Oregon State University
Oxford College of Emory University (3)
Pennsylvania State University (2)
University of Pittsburgh
Presbyterian College (3)
Purdue University (2)
Randolph-Macon College (6)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (2)
University of Rhode Island (2)
Rhodes College (4)
University of Rochester
Rochester Institute of Technology
Rutgers University (2)
St. Lawrence University
St. Michael?s College (2)
University of San Diego
San Diego State University (2)
University of San Francisco
Seton Hall University
University of the South ? Sewanee (5)
University of South Carolina (3)
Southern Methodist University
Southwestern University
Sweet Briar College (5)
Syracuse University (2)
Temple University (2)
University of Tennessee (2)
University of Texas, Dallas
University of Texas, El Paso
University of Texas, San Antonio (2)
Texas A&M University
Texas Christian University (2)
Texas Tech University (2)
Trinity University
Valparaiso University (3)
University of Vermont (4)
Villanova University
Virginia Commonwealth University
Virginia Tech University (2)
Wake Forest University
University of Washington
Washington State University
University of West Virginia
Willamette University
University of Wisconsin, Madison
Wofford College (5)
Xavier University
College Scholarships
70% of the seniors in the 2003-04 graduating classes were offered academic merit-based scholarships from one or more colleges or universities. The total value of scholarships offered was approximately $3.1 million, with an average of over $85,000 per student.
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To build on the list provided by the last poster, that doesn't include the number of kids who go on to top prep schools before going to college. The acceptances out of the prep schools following Carlbrook include NYU, Princeton and Duke.
I understand that Oakley is just as good- more west coast colleges, though.
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On 2005-10-02 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook- Looks like the diploma was worth something!
---snip---
Where's the source of this information?
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The Carlbrook website- and it is totally accurate. Every one of those acceptances can be documented.
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On 2005-10-02 16:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please keep in mind that the posters on this forum have no real knowledge of what it even means for a school to be accredited.
No idea, huh? While I've never dealt with elementary or secondary education, I can tell you that attending a non-accredited law school in the state of Florida precludes you from becoming a member of the Florida Bar. You can see how that's a real pisser right here: http://www.lc.org/hotissues/2001/aba_1- ... 011502.pdf (http://www.lc.org/hotissues/2001/aba_1-18/article_budding_legal_career_011502.pdf)
It has nothing to do with issuing false diplomas. If a student meets the course requirements for graduation in that state (in the case of Carlbrook- Virginia), a diploma can be issued. The teachers are all very well credentialed. In the three years or so that Carlbrook has been around not one student has failed to go on to college, private school or back into the public schools. No Carlbrook credits have ever been refused. Accreditation has been applied for, by the way. It is not a rapid process. "
Barry University has applied for accreditation also. You see where they are. The check being in the mail ain't enough.
Here are a few of the top school's requirements in Florida.
From the University of Florida: http://www.admissions.ufl.edu/ugrad/frqualify.html (http://www.admissions.ufl.edu/ugrad/frqualify.html)
Minimum Admission Requirements
* Graduation from a regionally accredited or state-approved secondary school or the equivalent (G.E.D., etc.)
From Florida State University:
http://www.fsu.edu/prospective/admissio ... hreq.shtml (http://www.fsu.edu/prospective/admissions/requirements/froshreq.shtml)
"Admission to Florida State University requires graduation from a regionally accredited high school with certain high school academic units..."
Hmmm... didn't I see FSU in that list? :question: :question: :question:
From The University of South Florida:
http://usfweb2.usf.edu/admissions/requirements.htm (http://usfweb2.usf.edu/admissions/requirements.htm)
"Admissions Criteria -
To be admitted as a first time in college student, applicants must have graduated from an accredited secondary school. Home schooled students and graduates of unaccredited schools may be asked to submit additional documentation outlining their educational background. The General Educational Development (GED) test score is accepted in place of a high school diploma."
From the University of Miami:
http://www.miami.edu/UMH/CDA/UMH_Main/1 ... -2,00.html (http://www.miami.edu/UMH/CDA/UMH_Main/1,1770,29532-1;36206-2,00.html)
"Admission is selective and is offered to those applicants whose credentials are academically sound, and whose interests, aptitudes and preparation reflect a well-rounded secondary school experience, inside and outside* the classroom."
* A little hard to do anything "outside" when you're locked up, isn't it?
You're right. I don't know a damned thing about the accrediation process - but I certainly know where I won't waste my money, energy and time. But of course, it's not YOUR time you're wasting, is it? When your kid finally finishes college at age 30, maybe they'll have the good sense to ask you why you chose to delay them. Of course, if they have no sense at all, they'll just be parrotting the tired old, "I'd be deadinsaneinja-a-a-a-a-a-il otherwise."
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On 2005-10-02 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The Carlbrook website- and it is totally accurate. Every one of those acceptances can be documented."
Documented how? From Carlbrook? Funny - I can tell you I have a PhD from Harvard and stick it on a website... you're gonna believe it?
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I taught there. I know the kids.
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On 2005-10-02 18:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I taught there. I know the kids."
BFD. I've taught college. I've known the students . Does that have something to do with the issue?
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On 2005-10-02 18:12:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
On 2005-10-02 18:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I taught there. I know the kids."
BFD. I've taught at an ACCREDITEDcollege. I've known the students . Does that have something to do with the issue, or do you want to wave your wanker some more?
"
_________________
Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket??[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-02 18:16 ]
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It was a response to your question about the accuracy of the college acceptance data. It is accurate. I know who the kids are who were accepted to the schools and where they are attending.
I don't care whether you believe me or not. You asked a question.
You can't stand to be proven wrong, can you?
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On 2005-10-02 18:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It was a response to your question about the accuracy of the college acceptance data. It is accurate. I know who the kids are who were accepted to the schools and where they are attending.
I don't care whether you believe me or not. You asked a question.
You can't stand to be proven wrong, can you?"
Untrue. When you show me proof, I'll believe it.
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I don't care whether you believe me or not. You asked a question.
You can't stand to be proven wrong, can you?"
Just what did you teach there? Hopefully not English.
_________________
Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket??[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-02 18:21 ]
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On 2005-10-02 16:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please keep in mind that the posters on this forum have no real knowledge of what it even means for a school to be accredited. It has nothing to do with issuing false diplomas. If a student meets the course requirements for graduation in that state (in the case of Carlbrook- Virginia), a diploma can be issued. The teachers are all very well credentialed. In the three years or so that Carlbrook has been around not one student has failed to go on to college, private school or back into the public schools. No Carlbrook credits have ever been refused. Accreditation has been applied for, by the way. It is not a rapid process. "
So you admit that they are not accredited then. Good. That point is taken care of.
Now, let me educate you: UNACCREDITED schools CAN NOT issue a state diploma, PERIOD. It matters not if they are "in the process" of accreditation. AGAIN, look at Ivy Ridge for the proper case law.
If Carlbrook is issuing diplomas that they claim to be legally issued in the state of Virginia, they ARE COMMITTING FRAUD. It's acut-and-dried issue. It's been validated through the cases of several other so-called "schools." Carlbrook is issuing FRAUDULENT Virginia diplomas.
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Of course posters on this forum KNOW what accreditation means! And posters KNOW what it means to be lied to by schools who commit FRAUD when the so-called school presents itself as "fully accredited" when it is NOT.
That is exactly why there are civil law suits that are WON!
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Well, when this becomes a problem for Carlbrook, I'll be sure to let you know.
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On 2005-10-03 11:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, when this becomes a problem for Carlbrook, I'll be sure to let you know."
Oh, what happened to us omitting the truth?
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Anonymous, thats not the problem. Nobody here is thinking about it from the point of view of good or bad for carlbrook as an entity with which we are concerned for its own welfare.
We're concerned about the welfare of the students and allegedly fradulent actions from Carlbrook, and any problems the students might have from a invalid diploma.
Why even make a statement about how its good or not good for Carlbrook? We don't care about their profit or wellbeing.Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-03 11:46 ]
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On 2005-10-03 11:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, when this becomes a problem for Carlbrook, I'll be sure to let you know."
Nobody's going to need your lame ass to anything. We'll know before you do, as we're the ones forwarding the information to the Virginia Attorney General.
:wave:
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We are quaking in our boots. Oh, please, don't tell on us! Gee-how did we operate for 3 years and have all these kids admitted to fine colleges? I guess we should have checked with Fornits about the need for accreditation.
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On 2005-10-03 11:45:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Anonymous, thats not the problem. Nobody here is thinking about it from the point of view of good or bad for carlbrook as an entity with which we are concerned for its own welfare.
We're concerned about the welfare of the students and allegedly fradulent actions from Carlbrook, and any problems the students might have from a invalid diploma.
Why even make a statement about how its good or not good for Carlbrook? We don't care about their profit or wellbeing.Necessity never made a good bargain
--Benjamin Franklin Apr. 1734
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-03 11:46 ]"
It seems like you are projecting your point of view. There could be plenty of people concerned with the welfare of the kids and the school who view this site.
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If YOU are concerned about the kids and the school, then YOU should also be concerned about this school not being accredited, don't you think? That's a whole lot of money down the drain for a worthless diploma.
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On 2005-10-03 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We are quaking in our boots. Oh, please, don't tell on us! Gee-how did we operate for 3 years and have all these kids admitted to fine colleges? I guess we should have checked with Fornits about the need for accreditation."
You know, you don't sound like much of a staff member to me. Not very professional at all. Not sure what a staff member would want to be doing arguing with a bunch of people on a message board about the school, anyway.
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On 2005-10-03 18:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If YOU are concerned about the kids and the school, then YOU should also be concerned about this school not being accredited, don't you think? That's a whole lot of money down the drain for a worthless diploma."
Some may feel the diploma is secondary, the welfare of the child is primary. The child may be able to go back to his or her state and test out of the high school he or she was in and receive a diploma there.
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Are we in the grips of a teen crisis, a developmental emergency that requires expensive intervention? Not exactly, say experts in adolescent psychology. Statistics show that teenagers aren't really acting up or out more than they have in the past. Instead we are more likely in a crisis of parenthood that has created a lucrative new market for specialty schools and educational consultants. If there is a serious problem here, it may be one of parenting and perception, not bad kids.
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/WhoseCr ... nyway.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/WhoseCrisisIsThisAnyway.html)
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On 2005-10-03 19:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are we in the grips of a teen crisis, a developmental emergency that requires expensive intervention? Not exactly, say experts in adolescent psychology. Statistics show that teenagers aren't really acting up or out more than they have in the past. Instead we are more likely in a crisis of parenthood that has created a lucrative new market for specialty schools and educational consultants. If there is a serious problem here, it may be one of parenting and perception, not bad kids.
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/WhoseCr ... nyway.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/WhoseCrisisIsThisAnyway.html)
"
or as the article goes on to say, a family which needs healing:
As for Dylan, he didn't particularly enjoy CEDU at first ("My attitude toward everyone that first year was basically 'Fuck off and die,'" he says), but he credits it with saving his life and attributes his parents' work on themselves as an essential and crucial part of the process. "I was suspicious at first," he says. "I never saw them being vulnerable, but over time I saw that this was for real. They were trying to share old, deep pain.
"It was the first time I was really touched by my parents -- with them doing something for themselves with no burdens or expectations on me. That's when I began to get over my anger and work actively on trying to heal, trying to mend our relationship."
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On 2005-10-03 19:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 19:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are we in the grips of a teen crisis, a developmental emergency that requires expensive intervention? Not exactly, say experts in adolescent psychology. Statistics show that teenagers aren't really acting up or out more than they have in the past. Instead we are more likely in a crisis of parenthood that has created a lucrative new market for specialty schools and educational consultants. If there is a serious problem here, it may be one of parenting and perception, not bad kids.
http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/WhoseCr ... nyway.html (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.org/WhoseCrisisIsThisAnyway.html)
"
or as the article goes on to say, a family which needs healing:
As for Dylan, he didn't particularly enjoy CEDU at first ("My attitude toward everyone that first year was basically 'Fuck off and die,'" he says), but he credits it with saving his life and attributes his parents' work on themselves as an essential and crucial part of the process. "I was suspicious at first," he says. "I never saw them being vulnerable, but over time I saw that this was for real. They were trying to share old, deep pain.
"It was the first time I was really touched by my parents -- with them doing something for themselves with no burdens or expectations on me. That's when I began to get over my anger and work actively on trying to heal, trying to mend our relationship."
"
There's just one little problem with this scenario, instead of sending the kid away, his folks should have sought marital and family counseling to address their pathological parenting. Parents are blaming their kids, when the problem is grounded in the parent's own pathology.
One can only wonder how this kid feels today about CEDU, for all we know, he could be one of the Fornits posters accusing CEDU of being a cult (which is was).
:smokin:
-
Yep, and we all know how the ed cons and those sleezy parent-run-referral services love to tell parents how THEY HELP FAMILIES HEAL ... it's a salespitch, and as shown by this article, it's a racket.
BUYER BEWARE.
-
From the article:
Experts in education and adolescent psychology speculate that in the past 30 years our culture has put less emphasis on individual responsibility and too much on individual satisfaction, creating a culture of adult children who don't know about delayed gratification.
Diane Ehrensaft -- a developmental and clinical psychologist, psychotherapist, professor at the Wright Institute in Berkeley, Calif., and author of two books -- was moved to write her second book when she realized "that something profound was occurring in our culture that needed explanation." In "Spoiling Childhood: How Well-Meaning Parents Are Giving Their Children Too Much -- But Not What They Need," Ehrensaft explores the many contradictions that define today's parents.
"How could this same group of parents be simultaneously accused of being the most self-centered and self-indulgent, and also the most child-centered and overly indulgent, generation of parents in modern history?" she asks. "Can it be both ways?"
The answer is affirmative. Describing times of rapid cultural flux, Ehrensaft posits that there have been dominant directives about raising children for many decades, from habit training in the 1930s to the more permissive approaches of Benjamin Spock in the 1940s and 1950s. No clear directives exist today. Limited time for "parenting," overburdened two-income parents with fragile emotional ties, fear for our children's future and a generation of "Peter Pan" parents are some of the factors that contribute to today's "crisis in parenthood."
"Consumed by their own stress and worries, feeling more afraid, alone, and professionally insecure than parents in the past, mothers and fathers attempt to bolster their own self-esteem by having precocious and high-achieving sons and daughters," writes Ehrensaft. This confluence of stress and insecurities has created a sort of freakish adult-child, perhaps best typified by Jessica Dubroll, the cheerfully officious 7-year-old who lost her life while attempting to fly solo across the country.
Children are both pushed to progress and overcoddled
As the trend toward being more grown-up starts at a younger age, a curious parenting permutation has emerged. Children are both pushed to progress and overcoddled, not by parents who are selfish or uncaring but, as Ehrensaft points out, "by confused parents who have no clear picture of what a child is and are unconscious of the vacillations between hurrying our children and holding them back. As a result, childhood is simultaneously contracting and expanding in some bizarre fashion."
Equally bizarre is the phenomenon in which parents who push their children to grow up fast are often the same Peter Pan parents who never really wanted to grow up themselves, and thus have a paradoxically well-intentioned but myopic view of parenting that fetishizes, glorifies and commodifies childhood. Parenthood, which comes as a shock, becomes a high-investment, high-risk endeavor instead of a natural, evolving developmental process.
The best specialty schools function with a high awareness of dysfunctional parental dynamics and require parents to participate in a series of increasingly complex personal development programs for the duration of their child's enrollment. Says Katie Brown, a CEDU alumni, "Parental involvement is crucial. Lots of parents send kids off to be fixed. These kids aren't necessarily broken, but the parents are."
So are teens truly more defiant and troubled than ever before? Or are we experiencing a sort of cultural déjà vu that harks back to the '50s, when the sexually and morally "degenerate" influences of rock 'n' roll, among other things, set off waves of parental panic throughout the nation?
"Absolutely," says Ponton. "There are a number of parallels here." The first similarity is statistical: There was a big boom in the teen population during the '50s. Beyond that, there is a remarkable replay of old perceptions that the parents of today's teens once rejected as irrational and unfair.
"These things are definitely culture based. Teens are once again perceived as risk takers, as dangerous," says Ponton. "When society is doing well economically -- as was also the case in the '50s -- people tend to dump on teens. You'd think economically good times would be good for teens, but they're not."
:nworthy:
-
Holy fucking shit I remember Katie Brown! She was a friend of mine. At least, I think I recall Brown being her last name. She went to RMA in the late 80s. My memory is so fucked up I can't even remember the last names of a lot of my friends from there, but I'm pretty sure it was Brown. She was in the same peer group as Mary H.
-
On 2005-10-03 18:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 18:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If YOU are concerned about the kids and the school, then YOU should also be concerned about this school not being accredited, don't you think? That's a whole lot of money down the drain for a worthless diploma."
Some may feel the diploma is secondary, the welfare of the child is primary. The child may be able to go back to his or her state and test out of the high school he or she was in and receive a diploma there."
Fine, maybe that is the case... then call it what it is! Don't wrap it up in an air of ivy league and hang a moniker on it that sounds like a resort.
Funny how the ed-cons, schools and parents spin this crap, it's not called "Manipulation", but the minute a kid verbalizes his dislike of the hellhole, that's "Manipulation".
-
"There's just one little problem with this scenario, instead of sending the kid away, his folks should have sought marital and family counseling to address their pathological parenting. Parents are blaming their kids, when the problem is grounded in the parent's own pathology."
Gee- why didn't the parents think of that? Wait-everything possible was done before the kids were sent to a program. You don't seem to understand that, so let me repeat. Programs are a last resort.
Carlbrook is licensed by the state as an academic boarding school.
-
On 2005-10-03 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"We are quaking in our boots. Oh, please, don't tell on us! Gee-how did we operate for 3 years and have all these kids admitted to fine colleges? I guess we should have checked with Fornits about the need for accreditation."
What an idiot. I hope this person has no contact with any kids there. Great modeling - NOT.
-
On 2005-10-03 20:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 19:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 19:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
There's just one little problem with this scenario, instead of sending the kid away, his folks should have sought marital and family counseling to address their pathological parenting. Parents are blaming their kids, when the problem is grounded in the parent's own pathology.
One can only wonder how this kid feels today about CEDU, for all we know, he could be one of the Fornits posters accusing CEDU of being a cult (which is was).
:smokin: "
Not sure it said how hard or little the parents tried prior to choosing a TBS as a possible solution..... and remember the author of this book could belong to the same country club and drive the same class mercedes as the TBS owners and the money is coming from the same "Struggling parents", so since the author of the book is motivated by cash should we believe the spin? Has she ever parented a child? If she was really interested in helping the kids she would give the book away for free to "Struggling Parents" so they will think twice about sending their kids away. Should have had it accredited by 3 government agencies prior to release,also.
This is not my opinion, I have actually read one of her books and she is very insightful. I was just applying some of the logic that seems to be popular around here.
-
So its okay because you got away with it? That sure is being accoutnable.
Its also liscensed as an ACADEMIC Boarding school, not what it is, a program. *Sigh*[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-04 09:35 ]
EDIT: Would you bagheads kindly fix the quote tags already? Or just not have two open ["quote"] tags?[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-04 09:49 ]
-
Generally, If the school is not regionally accredited or approved by the state, the student has to make a stop-over at a tech center or community college, get a GED and an AA and THEN transfer into one of these fine schools that were mentioned.
However, there is a slight chance that the "state approval" process does accept diplomas from schools such as Carlbrook because of the state LICENSING designation.
There's also something else to consider - I know for a fact with University of Florida and Boston University - that having a family member for an alumnus with enough money will get you in the door even if you have a GPA of 0.50.
I'm guessing if your family can afford Carlbrook, they can afford an education at their Alma Mater as well - qualified or not.
[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-04 09:50 ]
-
Wrong again, Helena. Many of these families are spending their college funds on the emotional growth schools. At the rate these kids were going, the college funds weren't going to be needed. Did you not see the section on the incredible amount of merit awards and financial aid the Carlbrook kids were receiving? I assure you, the kids at NYU and RPI did not make a stopover at a tech school.
Was Cascade accredited? Despite the problems last year, kids coming out of there in previous years were going to top colleges. Same with Oakley.
-
On 2005-10-04 09:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 20:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 19:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 19:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
There's just one little problem with this scenario, instead of sending the kid away, his folks should have sought marital and family counseling to address their pathological parenting. Parents are blaming their kids, when the problem is grounded in the parent's own pathology.
One can only wonder how this kid feels today about CEDU, for all we know, he could be one of the Fornits posters accusing CEDU of being a cult (which is was).
:smokin: "
I was just applying some of the logic that seems to be popular around here."
That logic being that contrary to what the teen hurt industry would have us all believe, it is the parents, not the kids, who need help.
Yep, those of us who know a thing or two about this industry, have known that for a long time.
It's the parents who are emotionally troubled.
:grin:
-
On 2005-10-04 10:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wrong again, Helena. Many of these families are spending their college funds on the emotional growth schools. At the rate these kids were going, the college funds weren't going to be needed. Did you not see the section on the incredible amount of merit awards and financial aid the Carlbrook kids were receiving? I assure you, the kids at NYU and RPI did not make a stopover at a tech school.
Was Cascade accredited? Despite the problems last year, kids coming out of there in previous years were going to top colleges. Same with Oakley."
No, I didn't see anything about those. Contrary to popular belief, I do have a life outside.
Fine - If everything you say is true, then Carlbrook, Cascade and Oakley may be on to something wonderful. Maybe they are decent "Emotional Growth" schools, and they actually give a damn about academics.
Why don't you question the lack of accrediation? How long have they been in operation?
-
College Scholarships
70% of the seniors in the 2003-04 graduating classes were offered academic merit-based scholarships from one or more colleges or universities. The total value of scholarships offered was approximately $3.1 million, with an average of over $85,000 per student.
This was posted previously on this thread and you replied to the post.
-
On 2005-10-04 10:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"College Scholarships
70% of the seniors in the 2003-04 graduating classes were offered academic merit-based scholarships from one or more colleges or universities. The total value of scholarships offered was approximately $3.1 million, with an average of over $85,000 per student.
This was posted previously on this thread and you replied to the post."
Ah, yes... but you never cited your source. These stats come from http://www.carlbrook.org/academics/acc.htm (http://www.carlbrook.org/academics/acc.htm)
But I have checked out their site. The big red flag for me is their acceptance criteria is questioning authority and underachieving, and it's such a "Prep School" with high standards, but you only need an IQ of 105 to get in there.
Tim Brace was also on staff with CEDU - lots of good stuff about him can be read right here:
http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/vi ... forum=11&9 (http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6179&forum=11&9)
You're telling me that you wouldn't question this as a parent?
_________________
Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket??[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-04 10:58 ]
-
On 2005-10-04 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-04 09:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 20:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 19:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 19:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
There's just one little problem with this scenario, instead of sending the kid away, his folks should have sought marital and family counseling to address their pathological parenting. Parents are blaming their kids, when the problem is grounded in the parent's own pathology.
One can only wonder how this kid feels today about CEDU, for all we know, he could be one of the Fornits posters accusing CEDU of being a cult (which is was).
:smokin: "
I was just applying some of the logic that seems to be popular around here."
That logic being that contrary to what the teen hurt industry would have us all believe, it is the parents, not the kids, who need help.
Yep, those of us who know a thing or two about this industry, have known that for a long time.
It's the parents who are emotionally troubled.
:grin:
"
Woops == I think you sort of stepped in it (by accident). The poster said he was using your logic not theirs, therefore you just slammed yourself. Ouch I have done it myself plenty of times, no biggie. I dont think you mentioned that you read the book (oversight?)
-
On 2005-10-04 04:34:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 18:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 18:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If YOU are concerned about the kids and the school, then YOU should also be concerned about this school not being accredited, don't you think? That's a whole lot of money down the drain for a worthless diploma."
Some may feel the diploma is secondary, the welfare of the child is primary. The child may be able to go back to his or her state and test out of the high school he or she was in and receive a diploma there."
Fine, maybe that is the case... then call it what it is! Don't wrap it up in an air of ivy league and hang a moniker on it that sounds like a resort.
Funny how the ed-cons, schools and parents spin this crap, it's not called "Manipulation", but the minute a kid verbalizes his dislike of the hellhole, that's "Manipulation".
"
Wasnt wrapping no spin, they are TBS's plain and simple. If the parents want a top notch education for their kids as their primary quest just take the "T" off and look for a boarding school. When a child needs to be stablized first a parent may be looking for a TBS. For some parents the kids were not even going to school so they wont be picky about the level of education being offered. Once the child is acclimated the education seems to come to the forfront and hopefully the parent has chosen a school which offers a level of education that meets the parents and child needs.
-
Fornits is a great authority. I would certainly believe everything written about Tim Brace by the Fornits people.
Carlbrook is an emotional growth school which happens to have decent academics. Many of the Carlbrook kids came from top prep schools and had been kicked out for behavior, drugs or some combination of the two. It was good that the school had sufficient academics that the kids didn't lose too much ground and could move back into prep schools or go on to good colleges after Carlbrook.
Carlbrook has a waiting list and is pretty selective about who they take.
I won't rehash all this- there have been other threads about Carlbrook. No one has ever claimed to have been abused there or to have had academic problems once they left.
-
Just remember those referrers are always making money off of those referrals. So, whether or not these referral people are making and exhuberant amount or not is immaterial! The point is that they are making money period...and supporting ones own family could be as little motivation as these referrers need to keep referring to bad places.
-DP :smokin: :wave: I would not let my children go to SW anymore than I would let them sleep in Michael Jackson's bed. I don't care if he was aquitted, it just ain't right.
AtomicAnt
-
Look, this is what we're really talking about. These "therapeutic" boarding schools (and adjunct forced marches and such) are all about providing "therapy" for "disorders" that are not disorders at all.
Thankfully, some oppositional, defiant psyche professionals are beginning to spill the beans on that. Thank god, thank god!
Depathologizing the Spirit of Resistance
By Bruce Levine
In 1980 the American Psychiatric Association (APA), in step with the election of Ronald Reagan and the U.S. right-wing shift, proclaimed a new mental illness: oppositional defiant disorder (ODD). Today ODD has become an increasingly
popular diagnosis for a young person who "actively
defies or refuses to comply with adult requests or rules" and "argues with adults"--symptoms
according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health Disorders (DSM), the APA's official diagnostic manual. While those once
labeled juvenile delinquents are now diagnosed with conduct disorder (CD), ODD is applied to those doing nothing illegal, only bucking authority.
Two ways of subduing anti-authoritarianism are
criminalizing it and pathologizing it and U.S. history is replete with examples of both. In
the same era of John Adams's Sedition Act, which criminalized criticism of U.S. governmental
policy, Dr. Benjamin Rush, "the father of American
psychiatry" (his image adorns the APA seal), pathologized anti-authoritarianism. Rush diagnosed those rebelling against a centralized federal authority as having an "EXCESS OF THE PASSION FOR LIBERTY" that "constituted a form of
insanity." He labeled this illness ANARCHIA.
>
Historically, both direct and indirect resistance to authority have been medicalized and diseased. In an 1851 article in the New Orleans Medical and
Surgical Journal, Louisiana physician Samuel
Cartwright reported his discovery of DRAPETOMANIA, the disease that CAUSED SLAVES TO FLEE CAPTIVITY, and DYSAESTHESIA AETHIOPIS, the disease that caused slaves to PAY INSUFFICIENT ATTENTION TO THE MASTER'S NEEDS. As with anarchia, few took drapetomania and dysaesthesia
aethiopis seriously--but this was before the
diseasing of anti-authoritarianism was accompanied by Big Pharma drugs and marketing
blitzs.
While drapetomania has given way to ODD and CD,
dysaesthesia aethiopis has given way to attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). The vast
majority kids "with ADHD" are capable of paying attention and being cooperative in environments that they are comfortable in. Studies show that they will pay attention to activities that they have chosen, that they find stimulating, or for
which they are getting paid. They routinely pay
attention to what interests them but tend to blow off school, especially homework. In 1992 the then APA medical director proudly described the relationship between the APA and pharmaceutical corporations as a "responsible, ethical partnership," and, in 2001, the Journal of the American Medical Association estimated that four to six million ADHD-labeled U.S. kids were taking Ritalin and Ritalin-like drugs.
Young people often ask me why psychiatrists and
psychologists don't understand that it is normal for kids to rebel against being controlled. The answer, I believe, is that many psychiatrists and
psychologists are not in touch with how extremely obedient they are. Acceptance into medical school and graduate school requires lots of As, and achieving a PhD or MD means jumping through many
meaningless hoops, all of which require much
behavioral and attentional compliance. When compliant MDs and PhDs begin seeing noncompliant
patients, many of these doctors get uptight and anxiety is often a prelude to diseasing that
which is quite normal. (Homosexuality was a DSM
disease until 1970s gay rights activists forced its removal). [AND STILL CONSIDERED ONE IN MANY PROGRAMS] In the institutions where I trained, there were a small minority of medical and graduate students who challenged authority, but
they were commonly labeled by higher-ups as "having issues with authority" and were pressured to seek psychotherapy for that condition.
Many substance abusers, while routinely destructive to themselves and others and not to be romanticized, are often anti-authoritarians. Researcher Craig MacAndrew developed a scale that distinguishes alcoholic and drug abuser personalities from "normal" subjects. The most
significant "addictive personality type" had discipline problems at school, were less tolerant of boredom, were less compliant with authorities and some laws, and engaged in more disapproved
sexual practices. Many indigenous cultures are
communitarian, anti-authoritarian cultures, and it is no accident that so many indigenous people have resorted to substance abuse in the face of overwhelming powerlessness thrust upon them by the dominant culture.
Among anti-authoritarians, some prize only their own liberty, but many care so strongly about social injustice that their pain over its absence can overwhelm them. They feel alienated, and their great desire is to connect with like-minded souls. But it is not the 1960s or the 1890s and there are no well-known "scenes" where they can find others in "the movement" or "the cause."
So they often get depressed and become self-destructive, and some seek treatment.
In every generation there will be:
(1)authoritarians, the passionate of whom
are fascists, (2) bourgeois/yuppies, who enjoy
anti-authoritarian books, music, and movies but don't act on them, and (3) genuine anti-authoritarians, who are so pained by exploitive hierarchies that they take action. Sometimes
anti-authoritarian action is obvious, more often it is subtle, and too often it is futile. Only rarely do anti-authoritarians take effective direct action that inspires others to revolt, but every once in a while a Tom Paine comes along.
So control-freaks take no chances, and the state-corporate partnership criminalizes anti-authoritarianism, pathologizes it, markets drugs to "cure" it, and financially intimidates those who might buck the system.
These days the managed-care police are working
feverishly to speed patients out of treatment. Along with pressuring me to refer my clientele for drugs, these cops--more benignly--often demand that I assign homework. And so for clients whom I believe would identify with Emma Goldman, I "assign" her autobiography.
In the first 50 pages of Living My Life, Goldman
tells how in the late 1880s the Haymarket martyrs gave her unhappy life a cause and how that cause
energized her to leave her boring husband and move
from Rochester, New York to New York City where she quickly hooked up with a lover, a mentor, and a community of like-minded souls.
I am happy to report that Living My Life provided instant self-help for one middle-aged, female client of mine, an anti-authoritarian previously diagnosed with substance abuse, depression, and several personality disorders. She has a passion now for reading and foregoes booze when captivated by a good book, and so the 993 pages of Goldman's epic provided a longer detox treatment than that provided by many insurance companies. Now this woman is fairly certain that she would not have become depressed or abused alcohol if she too had had a cause and community, and she has become energized in her search.
Z
Bruce E. Levine is a clinical psychologist and
author of Commonsense Rebellion: Taking Back Your Life from Drugs, Shrinks, Corporations, and a World Gone Crazy (Continuum).
- end -
http://www.brucelevine.net (http://www.brucelevine.net)
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
--Philosopher, Blaise Pascal
-
On 2005-10-04 10:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-04 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-04 09:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 20:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 19:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-03 19:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
There's just one little problem with this scenario, instead of sending the kid away, his folks should have sought marital and family counseling to address their pathological parenting. Parents are blaming their kids, when the problem is grounded in the parent's own pathology.
One can only wonder how this kid feels today about CEDU, for all we know, he could be one of the Fornits posters accusing CEDU of being a cult (which is was).
:smokin: "
I was just applying some of the logic that seems to be popular around here."
That logic being that contrary to what the teen hurt industry would have us all believe, it is the parents, not the kids, who need help.
Yep, those of us who know a thing or two about this industry, have known that for a long time.
It's the parents who are emotionally troubled.
:grin:
"
Woops == I think you sort of stepped in it (by accident). The poster said he was using your logic not theirs, therefore you just slammed yourself. Ouch I have done it myself plenty of times, no biggie. I dont think you mentioned that you read the book (oversight?)"
Look Spazola ... the point being it's the parents, not the kids, whose emotional IQ needs "adjusting".
Yep, you heard it hear first.
ANTI-TEEN HELPERS ... WE HELP STRUGGLING PARENTS JUST SAY NO TO EMOTIONAL GROWTH SCHOOLS FOR THEIR TEENS.
:grin:
-
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
Wow ginger, you fixed the quote tags and contributed more wisdom :grin: [/worship]
Back to carlbrook and the academics.
If the "academics" are self taught and you keep taking it until you get a good grade, how hard is it to get a scholarship based on your grades?
Unless, of course, Carlbrook is different...
EDIT: WOA, HOLY QUOTES BATMAN! Could you cut out some of that? Jeezus.
Where powers are assumed which have not been delegated, a nullification of the act is the rightful remedy.
Thomas Jefferson: Kentucky Resolutions, 1798
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-04 13:35 ]
-
Carlbrook has a full academic faculty. Nothing is self-taught. There is a normal academic day- not as much homework as most prep schools because of the emotional growth work. It is year-round school, so kids can repair their transcripts and catch up. There is an honor roll.
-
On 2005-10-04 13:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"On 2005-10-04 10:44:00, Anonymous wrote:"
On 2005-10-04 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"On 2005-10-04 09:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"On 2005-10-03 20:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"On 2005-10-03 19:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"On 2005-10-03 19:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
Look Spazola ... the point being it's the parents, not the kids, whose emotional IQ needs "adjusting".
Yep, you heard it hear first.
ANTI-TEEN HELPERS ... WE HELP STRUGGLING PARENTS JUST SAY NO TO EMOTIONAL GROWTH SCHOOLS FOR THEIR TEENS.
:grin: "
This is getting quite tedious. Let me say this and then I will let you have the last word, you seem to need it more than I.
Some parents believe in outsourcing their kids to others to fill in where they cannot or to try to fix what they feel is broken. Others hang in at home and either win or loss. Some parents are fully engaged in their kids lives and others not so much. But the majority of parents truely care about their kids and their happiness and wellbeing and THINK they are doing the right thing when making decisions regarding their children.... I sense your situation was different than the above statement and you fall outside of the majority and thats why you may be seeing things the way you do, no one here is judging you and you deserve to be angry and have Animosity towards all parents.
-
On 2005-10-04 14:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook has a full academic faculty. Nothing is self-taught. There is a normal academic day- not as much homework as most prep schools because of the emotional growth work. It is year-round school, so kids can repair their transcripts and catch up. There is an honor roll. "
Yeah, Cedu used to spout the same bullshit, but that's all their education was: bullshit. This is best examplified by the fact that so many of Cedu's most vocal ex-student supporters (here at fornits) lack even the most basic writing skills (Ie: capitalization, spelling, proper punctuation, etc).
As for the so-called "Emotional Growth Therapy":
I fail to see how being screamed at and verbally
abused on for hours at a time (often while being deprived of sleep), qualifies as real "work". Furthermore, I can't imagine how any
real "school" could in good conscience, justify short-changing their students academically in favor of exposing them to such despicable treatment.
Sorry, but you're really not making a very strong case for Carlbrook.
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I am a former Carlbrook student and I am now in college. The academics were fine. I had some really great teachers and some bad ones- just like at my home high school. I took 3 AP courses and got 4s and 5s on the exams. I received college credit for the courses. The biggest problem is that some of the teachers don't stick around. It is not the easiest teaching job since they don't get the summers off, which is one of the big draws of teaching for most people. Most of the kids at Carlbrook were pretty strong students to begin with. There were a few who struggled, and they had extra required study halls. Out of my graduating class there were a lot of college acceptances. Kids tend to apply to a lot of schools because there is no telling what role the past behavioral problems will play in admissions. One kid in my group had 1550 SATs and got into some great colleges. A lot of kids tend to stay in the south and go to the small,selective liberal arts colleges like Rhodes, Sewanee and Wofford. There are also kids at UNC and Furman. The academics at Carlbrook aren't that different from any other private school. The one problem is that everyone came from a different background, so there are different levels of kids in the math classes, for example.
I actually stayed at Carlbrook past my graduation from the program in order to finish high school. It didn't make sense to attend yet another school. The college counselor at Carlbrook is really good and knows how to help kids get into good schools. Not everyone is rich- and many families took out loans and even sold houses to afford Carlbrook. It was important to get financial aid and merit awards.
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I think you guys should check out the tables tags. They're real easy. Using angle braces instead of square brackets, do this:
[table bgcolor="000000" text="999999" border="20"]
Your asounding wisdom
There is so much in the bible against which every insinct of my being rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention.
--Helen Keller, American lecturer
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Wasnt wrapping no spin, they are TBS's plain and simple. If the parents want a top notch education for their kids as their primary quest just take the "T" off and look for a boarding school. When a child needs to be stablized first a parent may be looking for a TBS. For some parents the kids were not even going to school so they wont be picky about the level of education being offered. Once the child is acclimated the education seems to come to the forfront and hopefully the parent has chosen a school which offers a level of education that meets the parents and child needs."
Then knock it off with the "Academy" bullshit. Look up the root of academy - it kinda brings to mind, well academics. The jury is still out on Carlbrook, and others that may be a different breed of these places, but in what we've come to know about some of these warehouses, where the only allowed reading material is a bible (if you're allowed that), and you can be disciplined for being caught listening to the daily news, and where it's commonplace to disallow a "Student" from even attending classes so that they may "focus on themselves" - the word academy doesn't wash.
Yeah, "Hopefully" the parent pays attention and can recognize when a kid wants to play by "the rules"... but what set of rules? Have you stopped to think, and maybe listen to others that there are asshole parents out there that just wanna stick it to a kid for being such an "inconvenience"? Or maybe they're just plain stupid, and wouldn't know an Academy from Alcatraz. Who gets to grow up with a sub-standard education? Who gets to fight to make up for it if they get the time while trying to juggle a life on top of remedial education?
If Carlbrook is a great place - just provide the proof.
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Why does anyone need to provide proof to you whether Carlbrook or any other school is a great place? You keep slamming all the schools as a whole, and when someone points out that you are wrong, you demand proof. The issue isn't whether Carlbrook is a great place. Many posters on this forum have pointed out that many of the Carlbrook grads go on to good colleges and that the academics at Carlbrook are strong. You have seen the list of colleges and a faculty member has confirmed the academic success of the grads. I'm sure Carlbrook isn't Exeter, but it obviously does not fit into your basket of abusive, deceptive teen jails.
A poster on another thread who was the parent of a Carlbrook kid had some issues with the school. It isn't a perfect place. It does seem to work for some kids.
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On 2005-10-04 15:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am a former Carlbrook student and I am now in college. The academics were fine. I had some really great teachers and some bad ones- just like at my home high school. I took 3 AP courses and got 4s and 5s on the exams. I received college credit for the courses. The biggest problem is that some of the teachers don't stick around. It is not the easiest teaching job since they don't get the summers off, which is one of the big draws of teaching for most people. Most of the kids at Carlbrook were pretty strong students to begin with. There were a few who struggled, and they had extra required study halls. Out of my graduating class there were a lot of college acceptances. Kids tend to apply to a lot of schools because there is no telling what role the past behavioral problems will play in admissions. One kid in my group had 1550 SATs and got into some great colleges. A lot of kids tend to stay in the south and go to the small,selective liberal arts colleges like Rhodes, Sewanee and Wofford. There are also kids at UNC and Furman. The academics at Carlbrook aren't that different from any other private school. The one problem is that everyone came from a different background, so there are different levels of kids in the math classes, for example.
I actually stayed at Carlbrook past my graduation from the program in order to finish high school. It didn't make sense to attend yet another school. The college counselor at Carlbrook is really good and knows how to help kids get into good schools. Not everyone is rich- and many families took out loans and even sold houses to afford Carlbrook. It was important to get financial aid and merit awards. "
Okay. I won't give you an "A" for Creative Writing, maybe Math is your strongpoint.
I'm going to assume that students at Carlbrook attend regular classes that afford them a competitve education.
What's it like otherwise? Give us "a day in the life at Carlbrook". What rules did you have to follow? Were you allowed to be alone? Allowed to leave the campus to grab a burger? What kind of recreation were you allowed? Were you allowed to call home? Write letters? What did you do on the weekends?
What was "against the rules"?
_________________
Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket??[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-10-04 18:55 ]
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Don't you notice this poster posts nothing specific about day-to-day life. They are very vague and post no information which actually suggests they were there. This forum attracts a few program trolls who pose as ex-students who are thankful for being sent to private kiddy prison.
If you believe in your program so much, why not post your name?
We can all make up stories, especially ones as vague as yours are, troll. :wave:
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On 2005-10-04 18:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Don't you notice this poster posts nothing specific about day-to-day life. They are very vague and post no information which actually suggests they were there. This forum attracts a few program trolls who pose as ex-students who are thankful for being sent to private kiddy prison.
If you believe in your program so much, why not post your name?
We can all make up stories, especially ones as vague as yours are, troll. :wave: "
Ahem... I notice you're brown baggin' it too, guy. Pick a name, any name.
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I have no interest in revealing my name on this forum.
No, we couldn't leave campus alone. There was no place to go grab a hamburger anyway. These schools aren't exactly in urban locales. We could write letters to our parents and then to approved friends once we reached a certain level, which I never reached before I left. We could read whatever we wanted and there was a pretty good library. We went to school during the weekdays and then had group sessions after school. We played soccer,lacrosse and basketball on campus- no interscholastic sports. We had a weight room but there was limited access. A lot of kids had musical instruments. Our art room was excellent. In the evening we did homework, had meetings with other students or staff or did writing assignments. We had calls home weekly or every other week. We did our own laundry and our shirts and dry cleaning were sent out. We had a series of workshops and had lower school, middle school and upper school. Each level had more privileges.
Enough?
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On 2005-10-04 19:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have no interest in revealing my name on this forum.
No, we couldn't leave campus alone. There was no place to go grab a hamburger anyway. These schools aren't exactly in urban locales. We could write letters to our parents and then to approved friends once we reached a certain level, which I never reached before I left. We could read whatever we wanted and there was a pretty good library. We went to school during the weekdays and then had group sessions after school. We played soccer,lacrosse and basketball on campus- no interscholastic sports. We had a weight room but there was limited access. A lot of kids had musical instruments. Our art room was excellent. In the evening we did homework, had meetings with other students or staff or did writing assignments. We had calls home weekly or every other week. We did our own laundry and our shirts and dry cleaning were sent out. We had a series of workshops and had lower school, middle school and upper school. Each level had more privileges.
Enough?"
Sure thing, Ottawa! :rofl: :rofl:
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On 2005-10-04 16:21:00, Antigen wrote:
"I think you guys should check out the tables tags. They're real easy. Using angle braces instead of square brackets, do this:
[table bgcolor="000000" text="999999" border="20"]
Your asounding wisdom
There is so much in the bible against which every insinct of my being rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention.
--Helen Keller, American lecturer
"
Antigen- I am the one who screwed up the board with changing the
. I was trying to reduce the amount of space do to the growing qoute, with my response. I dont understand the advice you just gave me. Use to write VBA and support MS Access systems (Must be getting old, havent written in a couple of years). Maybe better if I not try to edit the messages.
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On 2005-10-04 19:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have no interest in revealing my name on this forum.
Me either... do you actually believe my last name is "Handbasket"? :silly: Get a grip...relax.
No, we couldn't leave campus alone. There was no place to go grab a hamburger anyway. These schools aren't exactly in urban locales.
Why can't you leave campus alone? You say "These schools"... are there more than one? Why are they isolated?
We could write letters to our parents and then to approved friends once we reached a certain level, which I never reached before I left.
Levels? You have to reach a level to even write to your family?
We could read whatever we wanted and there was a pretty good library. We went to school during the weekdays and then had group sessions after school.
Like group homework, or group therapy?
We played soccer,lacrosse and basketball
on campus- no interscholastic sports. We had a weight room but there was limited access. A lot of kids had musical instruments. Our art room was excellent. In the evening we did homework, had meetings with other students or staff or did writing assignments.
I didn't know they had lacrosse this side of the Mason-Dixon line...cool. What kind of meetings?
We had calls home weekly or every other week.
Regardless of what "level" you were on? Were the phone calls monitored?
We did our own laundry and our shirts and dry cleaning were sent out.
You wore dry-clean-only shirts? :grin:
We had a series of workshops and had lower school, middle school and upper school. Each level had more privileges.
Enough?"
Well, no.. that's curious - because from what I've read, Carlbrook only accepts ages 15-17, so I don't get this "lower/middle/upper" school thing.
I've also read that "The school provides a tiered, 15-month interdisciplinary program..." Which is a year and three months. So, if a student is admitted as a 15 year old sophomore - do they get to graduate from Carlbrook, or do they return to their regularly scheduled lives?
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Lower school was when you first came in. You had to then be promoted to middle school after you completed a couple of workshops. Not many people actually made it to upper school.
We wore shirts that got laundered and pressed at the laundry.
The meetings with other kids were called appointments and you could schedule the appointments and talk about issues with the other kids.
The calls to the parents were not monitored and they began immediately.
Emotional growth schools, including Carlbrook, are in remote locations. This is to discourage running away and limit access to drugs and alcohol. At least, this is my take on it.
I didn't finish the program, by the way, and there was a lot I hated about the place. So-I am not exactly a brain-washed program kid. Actually, there was not the kind of spirit-breaking stuff going on at Carlbrook that you seem to think happens. There is some component of manipulation in the emotional growth groups, but most of the kids really wanted to talk about the problems that got them to Carlbrook. There was some really serious shit going on in their lives.
My main gripe is that many of these kids screw up shortly after getting out of the place. That is something that needs correcting. They graduate full of good intentions, and somehow they don't cope that well in the real world. I would say about 20% of the graduates do well in terms of staying clean, staying in school and not winding up with an unplanned pregnancy.
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On 2005-10-04 20:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Lower school was when you first came in. You had to then be promoted to middle school after you completed a couple of workshops. Not many people actually made it to upper school.
What exactly are these mysterious "workshops"? And why is the "Upper school" so unobtainable?
We wore shirts that got laundered and pressed at the laundry.
Lucky you... now if I could find a job with those laundry rules, I'd be all set :grin:
The meetings with other kids were called appointments and you could schedule the appointments and talk about issues with the other kids.
WHAT ISSUES? Christ - are we talking about running a magazine rack here???
The calls to the parents were not monitored and they began immediately.
So if you could talk over the phone with your parents, unmonitored, then why did you have to earn a privelege for written communication?
Emotional growth schools, including Carlbrook, are in remote locations. This is to discourage running away and limit access to drugs and alcohol. At least, this is my take on it.
Yeah, and you're not alone - that's many others' take on it too. Now ya gotta wonder - why did the powers that be anticipate anyone "running away" from such a great school? Did it happen to be built out in the middle of nowhere by coincidence?
I didn't finish the program, by the way, and there was a lot I hated about the place. So-I am not exactly a brain-washed program kid.
Why didn't you finish? What did you hate?
Actually, there was not the kind of spirit-breaking stuff going on at Carlbrook that you seem to think happens. There is some component of manipulation in the emotional growth groups, but most of the kids really wanted to talk about the problems that got them to Carlbrook. There was some really serious shit going on in their lives.
Ok... I'm really trying to understand this... (maybe my head won't explode???)there's a "component of manipulation", but it's OKAY because some kids "really wanted to talk about what got them to Carlbrook" Says who? You know, some of us made up some serious shit going on in our lives when we thought it would get us out faster, too.
My main gripe is that many of these kids screw up shortly after getting out of the place. That is something that needs correcting. They graduate full of good intentions, and somehow they don't cope that well in the real world. I would say about 20% of the graduates do well in terms of staying clean, staying in school and not winding up with an unplanned pregnancy.
Really. How do you know this?
Also, If you look further back in the the thread, we're led to believe that Carlbrook is one of the leading purveyors of young souls to Ivy League Universities.
BTW, what is the average graduating class size of Carlbrook?
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On 2005-10-04 18:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why does anyone need to provide proof to you whether Carlbrook or any other school is a great place? You keep slamming all the schools as a whole, and when someone points out that you are wrong, you demand proof. The issue isn't whether Carlbrook is a great place. Many posters on this forum have pointed out that many of the Carlbrook grads go on to good colleges and that the academics at Carlbrook are strong. You have seen the list of colleges and a faculty member has confirmed the academic success of the grads. I'm sure Carlbrook isn't Exeter, but it obviously does not fit into your basket of abusive, deceptive teen jails.
A poster on another thread who was the parent of a Carlbrook kid had some issues with the school. It isn't a perfect place. It does seem to work for some kids. "
Because in a free society with a free market, criticism is abundant and businesses, products, and people need to prove themselves. Emotional Growth is very anti criticsm (and anti critical THOUGHT) but the real world isnt'.
I'll put it this way. Would you buy a car, or a computer, if it sucked? Do people called CRITICS not have jobs to review them and point out all the bad in them? And isnt it the job of the manufacturer to demonstrate its a good product? Well, hey, same for service!
Carlbrook has yet to prove itself as anything but just another emotional growth program. Wow, there is 'academics'! Makes sense when thats what its accredited for when its really an emotional growth program, not a traditional academy.
But hey, when Carlbrookies are coming out saying they had to pass workshops to go up levels, after we say "hey its just antoher LGA based program" you know what that does? It proves us RIGHT.
So yeah, its perfectly okay for us to say EVERY program sucks, and that EVERY program has to prove itself good. The only reason parents get sucked into this bullshit is because all the information is controlled, intercommunication is shunned and up until now the only way to find out any objective information was word of mouth.
Lon Woodbury's website has yet to issue a critical review of anything, and no program will speak bad about themselves, and there are no critics out there except us. So, if you don't like it, there are two things you can do:
1. Tell people not to come here and just use the people who are referred as business.
2. Prove us wrong.
Real hard to guess what Carlbrook is reliant on. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
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On 2005-10-04 20:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Lower school was when you first came in. You had to then be promoted to middle school after you completed a couple of workshops. Not many people actually made it to upper school.
We wore shirts that got laundered and pressed at the laundry.
The meetings with other kids were called appointments and you could schedule the appointments and talk about issues with the other kids.
The calls to the parents were not monitored and they began immediately.
Emotional growth schools, including Carlbrook, are in remote locations. This is to discourage running away and limit access to drugs and alcohol. At least, this is my take on it.
I didn't finish the program, by the way, and there was a lot I hated about the place. So-I am not exactly a brain-washed program kid. Actually, there was not the kind of spirit-breaking stuff going on at Carlbrook that you seem to think happens. There is some component of manipulation in the emotional growth groups, but most of the kids really wanted to talk about the problems that got them to Carlbrook. There was some really serious shit going on in their lives.
My main gripe is that many of these kids screw up shortly after getting out of the place. That is something that needs correcting. They graduate full of good intentions, and somehow they don't cope that well in the real world. I would say about 20% of the graduates do well in terms of staying clean, staying in school and not winding up with an unplanned pregnancy.
"
I call bullshit. This sounds like an EMPLOYEE of carlbrook, not a ex-student.
Decide for yourself.
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Before you feed a troll, realize it's probably Ottawa or bitch assistant Ottawa.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=11#59078 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6415&forum=11#59078)
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On 2005-10-05 08:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Before you feed a troll, realize it's probably Ottawa or bitch assistant Ottawa.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=11#59078 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6415&forum=11#59078)"
Thought Ottowa was a CEDU staffer/parent/troll?
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got the troll part right... :lol:
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On 2005-10-05 08:32:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
On 2005-10-05 08:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Before you feed a troll, realize it's probably Ottawa or bitch assistant Ottawa.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=11#59078 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6415&forum=11#59078)"
Thought Ottowa was a CEDU staffer/parent/troll?
"
She is, but she also blindly supports any program.
The Carlbrook trolls are KarenInDallas and Ben's Dad.
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"The Carlbrook trolls are KarenInDallas and Ben's Dad."
Neither of their kids finished the program. I don't think either would blindly support the school. My kid was in the same group. Karen's son got kicked out and is doing better than anyone else. He is either at or heading for an Ivy League school as an athlete. Ben's son walked out when he turned 18.
I think it is really a kid posting- if not, maybe the parent of a current student there.
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On 2005-10-05 08:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
""The Carlbrook trolls are KarenInDallas and Ben's Dad."
Neither of their kids finished the program. I don't think either would blindly support the school. My kid was in the same group. Karen's son got kicked out and is doing better than anyone else. He is either at or heading for an Ivy League school as an athlete. Ben's son walked out when he turned 18.
I think it is really a kid posting- if not, maybe the parent of a current student there."
Ahahahahahahahahahahaha
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On 2005-10-05 08:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-05 08:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
""The Carlbrook trolls are KarenInDallas and Ben's Dad."
Neither of their kids finished the program. I don't think either would blindly support the school. My kid was in the same group. Karen's son got kicked out and is doing better than anyone else. He is either at or heading for an Ivy League school as an athlete. Ben's son walked out when he turned 18.
I think it is really a kid posting- if not, maybe the parent of a current student there."
Ahahahahahahahahahahaha"
well, you need to read some other threads. they both posted here quite frequetly and both supported carlbrook unflinchingly, although both admitted "problems" with the program.
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I am a parent new to this forum and the whole process. I did some research. Carlbrook School is accredited by SACS (Southern Assoc of Colleges and Schools) and has a CEEB code.
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On 2005-10-06 11:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am a parent new to this forum and the whole process. I did some research. Carlbrook School is accredited by SACS (Southern Assoc of Colleges and Schools) and has a CEEB code."
Please post where you found the information. Please show your research with links to the documents so they may be verified.
I searched for a CEEB code and they were not listed.
Also SACS only accredits institutions of higher learning, not high schools. Here's their information copied from their website:
"GENERAL OVERVIEW
The Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and
Schools is the regional body for the accreditation of higher education institutions
in the Southern states (Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana,
Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia) and
Latin America that award associate, baccalaureate, master?s, or doctoral degrees."
They clearly state that they only accredit institutions that issue Associates, Baccalaureates, Masters and Doctorates.
I believe you are mistaken.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-10-06 12:05 ]
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http://www.sacscasi.org/schools/Proceed ... edited.pdf (http://www.sacscasi.org/schools/Proceedings_VA_Accredited.pdf)
This is the link for schools accredited by SACS Council on Accreditation and School Improvement, the arm of SACS that accredits elementary, middle, and secondary (high) schools.
Carlbrook is not listed as a member.
Hope this helps.
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Carlbrook is listed as a Candidate with an accreditation date of 2002. Hope this helps.
The CEEB number, which wasn't hard to find, is 472108.
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On 2005-10-06 12:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook is listed as a Candidate with an accreditation date of 2002. Hope this helps.
The CEEB number, which wasn't hard to find, is 472108."
"Candidate" means they are waiting for accreditation but are paying the yearly fee to remain on the candidate list until they provide documentation showing compliance with SACSCASI regulations.
"Candidate" status is a provisional status which means they remain unaccredited until they prove compliance. This is a typical tactic used by EG "schools" like Ivy Ridge which was doing the same thing advertising candidate status as accreditation.
Carlbrook cannot issue high school diplomas in the state of Virginia and won't be able to until they are accredited.
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On 2005-10-06 12:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-06 12:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Carlbrook is listed as a Candidate with an accreditation date of 2002. Hope this helps.
The CEEB number, which wasn't hard to find, is 472108."
"Candidate" means they are waiting for accreditation but are paying the yearly fee to remain on the candidate list until they provide documentation showing compliance with SACSCASI regulations.
"Candidate" status is a provisional status which means they remain unaccredited until they prove compliance. This is a typical tactic used by EG "schools" like Ivy Ridge which was doing the same thing advertising candidate status as accreditation.
Carlbrook cannot issue high school diplomas in the state of Virginia and won't be able to until they are accredited."
Its a little more than just providing documentation, its a long process and you know how some states burocracy can be. Getting even a small charter school accredited can take years. I am glade they are moving forward,though, with the Accreditation more parents will sit up and take notice that the schools are moving in the right direction, which is what we all want. A lot of parents are reluctant to send their kids and question more and more where each school stands with their accreditation.
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On 2005-10-06 11:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am a parent new to this forum and the whole process. I did some research. Carlbrook School is accredited by SACS (Southern Assoc of Colleges and Schools) and has a CEEB code."
We've established that they are not accredited. They are a candidate for accreditation since 2002 but as yet have been unable to pass muster for accreditation. As such, they are legally prohibited from issuing diplomas.
I was able to find their CEEB code which was issued only this year. Incidentally, a CEEB code is no reflection on the academic quality or accreditation status of a facility. It means only that they can give the SAT and PSAT test, i.e. they're an "authorized testing center."
You want to know "Why are stuggling parents such an easy mark?" It's simple. Just look at the responses in this thread. These parents will go as far as to say that a "candidate school" is fully accredited (I guess like a Presidential candidate is already the President?). They're willing to create alternate realitites that conform to their belief system (or "wishful thinking" as it were), regardless of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. Objective reality is extinctified by "program reality."
Welcome to the land of suspended reality, StrugglingParentville...[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-10-06 14:40 ]
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The regulars on this board seem pretty hung up on accreditation. In fact, for private schools (not just these teen programs), it is a much murkier area than with public schools. Many states do not even oversee the accreditation of private schools. The point of private schools is that they DO have latitude in how they set themselves up, and are not subject to the "how many books are in the library" tests that go into the accreditation process.
A diploma from a high school which can show that it has a faculty with appropriate degrees and certifications is recognized by colleges and secondary schools whether or not the school is accredited by any one of the many organizations which accredit private or specialty schools. Yes, it is nice to be able to post that big ACCREDITED logo on your website, but it really doesn't affect the students or their diplomas.
To say otherwise is simply not correct.
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If accreditation IS NOT IMPORTANT, than why does WWASP and other programs, like Whitmore Academy go to such great extents to LIE ABOUT IT and say they are "fully accredited" when they well-know they ARE NOT?
They LIE to get parents to enroll their kids in their programs. That is why!
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On 2005-10-06 23:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If accreditation IS NOT IMPORTANT, than why does WWASP and other programs, like Whitmore Academy go to such great extents to LIE ABOUT IT and say they are "fully accredited" when they well-know they ARE NOT?
They LIE to get parents to enroll their kids in their programs. That is why!"
Great question. The simple answer is that, as gullible as some of these parents are, they do see the need for their child to at least have a valid, legal diploma from an accredited school.
It's another hook to rope in StrugglingParents.
If accreditation means nothing, why isn't there a statement on the websites of these programs that says "we are not accredited by the state of ____ or any other accrediting agency"?
Why is it that they all seem to be "candidates" for accreditation, but never seem to actually get accredited? It's because they can deflect criticisms/assuage fears of parents who seek a proper education for their child by saying "we're in the process."
This makes it LOOK AS IF the "school" is legitimate, but we've seen time and time again, they're not and they are barred from issuing state diplomas, period.
You'd think that a school like Carlbrook that grosses roughly $600,000.00 per month could hire licensed teachers and meet basic academic requirements for accreditation in the state of Virginia. They answer is "they could if they wanted to" but they won't because things like licesned teachers cost more money and that cuts into profits. And, let's face it, Carlbrook is a business that exists solely for the purpose of making huge profit by separating suckers (struggling parents) from their funds.
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And how 'bout those who use their accreditation status to hoodwink parents into believing that the behavior modification aspect of their program is appropriately monitored? :lol:
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Carlbrook's teachers are licensed and certified. That has nothing to do with accreditation. Accreditation can be done (for non-public schools) by a myriad of accrediting organizations. They look at things like student/teacher ratios, number of books in the library, degrees and certifications of the administration and faculty. There is a ton of paperwork that goes along with accreditation and the process can take years. It is certainly one factor, but is not at all determinative of the quality of a school with respect to academics.
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On 2005-10-07 06:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Accreditation can be done (for non-public schools) by a myriad of accrediting organizations. They look at things like student/teacher ratios, number of books in the library, degrees and certifications of the administration and faculty.
"
Funny how they just can't seem to get accredited, huh? I mean if SO MANY agencies do it and Carlbrook is SO QUALIFIED, then why can't they pass the litmus test for accreditation? :roll:
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Being accredited means nothing. There are lots of great private schools that are not and many more lousy public schools that are! Homeschools are not accredited, yet produce some of the most highly educated students!
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On 2005-10-07 08:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Being accredited means nothing."
That statement is utterly ridiculous.
If it means nothing, why do these places go to such lengths to make it APPEAR as if they are accredited?
At the very least, accreditation is a powerful marketing tool that places like Carlbrook are willing to lie about to bring in business. It seems to me they don't think it's worthless.
Let me guess, you've got an unaccredited college degree like some of the staff, right?
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Yes, but home school parents don't run around and SAY that they are accredited! They just work hard, and teach their children, and provide a valuable education on a DAILY BASIS. That is the operative phrase: they provide their children with a "valuable education."
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Where did Carlbrook lie and say it was accredited? Point that out, please.
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I don't know. Maybe they use an accredited curriculum like Keystone or Abeka.
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I telephoned SACS on Friday. They told me the following regarding Carlbrook:
Carlbrook was granted provisional status shortly after the school opened and is now in the final stages of the lengthy process of accreditation. A visiting team puts the final stamp on next month, but they have been permitted to list themselves, and have been recognized as, accredited. The school is permitted to issue diplomas under the State of Virginia's requirements.