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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 13, 2003, 11:14:00 PM

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2003, 11:14:00 PM

Whether you believed that the Seed was a cult or not, the unfolding Elizabeth Smart story is a good refresher course on the dynamics between cult leader/wacko and follower, how it is so easy for young vulnerable teenagers to become brainwashed, and why they begin to fear and shun those on the outside.  

I highly recommend you follow this story so that you can see the parallels and understand how Art Barker manipulated his "followers."

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 14, 2003, 12:13:00 AM

Think about the Helsinki syndrome and how it applied to us, how we all came to "love" our captors after the intitial fear and bizzare way we viewed them.

She went thru something very similar I am sure.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 14, 2003, 08:27:00 AM

i believe it's the "stockholm syndrome" from 1973...

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Antigen on March 14, 2003, 10:10:00 AM

And dig this! The daughter of the woman who was with them, Emanual's common law wife I guess she was, said in an interview that her mother and he had met in a drug rehab. Hmmmmmm! Presumably one near SLC.... HHHMMMMMMmmmmmmm!!

He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
James Burgh 1774

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 14, 2003, 04:39:00 PM

:silly:

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Antigen on March 15, 2003, 06:37:00 PM

What stretch?

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-- Robert Heinlein

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 15, 2003, 06:42:00 PM

Aren't the Mormons widely regarded as a cult outside of the US?

I have to admit that my first thought on reading the news item was , well, the Mormons are a cult aren't they, these people are Mormons... hence their kids are already somewhat vulnerable. And I'm not saying this out of malice,  but simply that I can understand her pain.  I hope when she gets older she can break away from that dependancy...  

Just a part of the insanity that is the world today.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Powerful Attitude on March 16, 2003, 02:21:00 PM

Hello, how is everyone today. I am very interested in any information pertaining to CULTS that hold the same characteristics of these sadistic (CULTS) :nworthy:  Rehabs. It has been 18 years for me until recently I was given a different SET OF EYES. I can't help expose the truth until I obtain what I am looking for. I saw a hell of a lot going on when i was in for 16 months, SO THE SEARCH HAS BEGUN.

Links, authors, title's, WHERE ONE WOULD FIND, Names, names, names
SINCE I'M NEW. THANK YOU.  :wave:

How did they get to the parents so well, it seemed they where all under the spell?

I believe that the parent has always been guilty of wanting too much ABUSIVE control in the get go. How else can your family look across the room at you and say all is good we'll come back next month.... or when ever the bastard earns it. They are guilty..........of control.

Is this why they were taken so easy?
How in the hell could they all have been so blind?
They (STRAIGHT) where working the arts.


[ This Message was edited by: Powerful Attitude on 2003-03-16 11:30 ]

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Britt15 on March 16, 2003, 03:16:00 PM

Well, she was missing for 9 months, her family seemed to be a "high up", well known "perfect" little family. I think maybe since shes only 15 she was pregnant and her parents didnt want to go through the humiliation of all that and had someone take her away until she had the baby, she camr back perfectly fine, healthy, and in the same town? Now how unlikely is that?. There is deffinitely alot more to the story than they are telling us

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Antigen on March 16, 2003, 05:33:00 PM

On 2003-03-16 11:21:00, Powerful Attitude wrote: "Hello, how is everyone today. I am very interested in any information pertaining to CULTS that hold the same characteristics of these sadistic (CULTS) :nworthy:  Rehabs. It has been 18 years for me until recently I was given a different SET OF EYES. I can't help expose the truth until I obtain what I am looking for. I saw a hell of a lot going on when i was in for 16 months, SO THE SEARCH HAS BEGUN. Links, authors, title's, WHERE ONE WOULD FIND, Names, names, names SINCE I'M NEW. THANK YOU.  :wave: How did they get to the parents so well, it seemed they where all under the spell? I believe that the parent has always been guilty of wanting too much ABUSIVE control in the get go. How else can your family look across the room at you and say all is good we'll come back next month.... or when ever the bastard earns it. They are guilty..........of control. Is this why they were taken so easy? How in the hell could they all have been so blind? They (STRAIGHT) where working the arts.

Well, here's the pitch. Drugs R bad, M'khay?

I know, I know, it doesn't seem too bad. In fact, it seems like kind of a benign statement, right?

But think of what was going on in the summer of `70 when The Seed first opened. That summer was also known as the summer of Manson. All kinds of shit was breaking loose; Woodstock, Patty Hearst and then a copy cat murderer on a military base in Maryland. All this madness was very deliberately and effectively linked to the demon weed by the Nixon Admin's propaganda service. When Bobby DuPont came out with the gateway theory (i.e. pot -> addiction -> running away with the Manson family and coming back in the night to slaughter their loving families), parents of the WWII generation believed it.

That got it started and money and political momentum have kept it going. Check out this hysterical response that a friend of mine got from his congressman in response to an inquery on medical marijuana:

Michael G. Oxley M. C. Dear Mr. Precup: Thank you for contacting my office in regard to the medical use of marijuana. I appreciate hearing from you. While I understand the emotional arguments in support of medical marijuana use, it is important to give careful consideration to the reasoning of the opposition. The Food and Drug Administration has conducted much scientific research into the benefits of the medical use of marijuana, only to conclude that none exist. The American Medical Association, the National Multiple Sclerosis Society, the American Glaucoma Society, the American Academy of Ophthalmology, and the American Cancer Society have all rejected the claim that marijuana has any therapeutic value. In addition, tile law enforcement community declares that legalization might increase crime levels and hamper efforts to prevent the spread of drugs into our communities. The sale of marijuana in pharmacies could lead to security problems for those pharmacies, as criminals attempt to steal the drug for sale on the street. Attempts to ease federal restrictions on marijuana for medical purposes have not been very successful. State initiatives to provide medical marijuana have made little headway as well. As a former special agent with the FBI, I have seen the scourge that drugs have caused on our streets. The argument that medical marijuana serves as a gateway drug to harder drugs is also compelling and frightening. Now the war on terrorism has been joined with the war on illegal drug use, U.S. officials have suspects in custody who attempted to use profits from illicit drug sales to finance the purchase of Stinger missiles for al Qaeda. This is a connection that must be broken, and never allowed to form, with all due haste and force. I have the utmost sympathy for those living with the pain of cancer, glaucoma, and other diseases. However, I remain skeptical as to the benefits of legalizing marijuana for medicinal purposes. I believe that as a society we must do everything possible to protect the health and safety of all citizens, our families, and our communities. This *includes, in my view, increasing and not lessening the stigma that society attaches to drug use. I would regret any action by Congress that could be viewed as tacit government approval for the legalization of marijuana. As these issues are considered by Congress, rest assured I will keep your comments in mind. Thank you again for contacting my office. Yours truly, Michael G. Oxley M. C. fourth Ohio District

I can understand how parents in the 70's and even older parents in the early `80's got taken in. Some scary shit was happening and their leaders told them it was all because of the "drug culture". But I have a really hard time understanding how people my age and younger can buy into this crap or how politicians, who you'd expect to be well informed, can continue believing this tripe.

Anyway, there's a lot of history and documentation available from Wes Fager's website, http://thestraights.com/ (http://thestraights.com/)

Time's fun when you're having flies.
--Kermit the Frog

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Antigen on March 16, 2003, 05:37:00 PM

I'm not sure if the Smarts are Mormon or not. As I understand it, they're rather more like hippies. But I could be wrong on that.

I thought it was interesting that the kidnappers met up in rehab in Utah because Utah is notorious for ignoring abusive rehabs. WWASP and some of the other Synanon based boot camp, wilderness deathmarch and boarding schools like to locate in Utah and So. Dakota for that reason.

So I wonder what kind of rehab served as the setting for this romance.

May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Majiktrvls on March 16, 2003, 11:45:00 PM

Ginger,
The Smart's are anything but Hippies. They are extremely wealthy, living high on the hill, self proclaimed "good upstanding" Mormons. I doubt that they even know the meaning of the word hippie! :lol.
As for Elizabeth Smart, well there is a whole lot more to this story than the public is being made aware of. I have my own speculations, there are too many inconsistencies with the whole damn ordeal. Could it be that this kid just got sick of all the high and mighty living that she was forced to live? The huge amount of pressure that is placed upon Mormon kids to be perfect is overwhelming to most of them. That is why the suicide rate is astronomical out here. They cannot live up to the pressure. Maybe she was pregnant, maybe she ran away. Maybe she was kidnapped by this Mitchell guy (and he is truly nuts)and now suffers from the Stockholm Syndrome, who knows. I, for one, have a hard time believing that this guy was only around the family for a 5 hour period, then came back months later to take this child to be his next "wife". It does not add up. NOne of it adds up.  We most likely will never know cause this family has too much money to allow anything else to TARNISH their so called "perfect" World.  There is something definitely not "right" with the whole situation.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2003, 10:13:00 PM

Mormonism is not a cult.  visit http://www.lds.org (http://www.lds.org)
  --->  before you judge a group of people or a Church, try investigating about it first.  The faith and prayers of this family has been heard by God.  What happened is a great miracle and it's a proven fact that these people, these mormons have been found worthy in the eyes of God because of their faith, commitment and obedience to His will for them.  

One thing that is wrong with people is that sometimes they tend to be so proud and so wise of their knowledge of what they believe is right, they judge and judge but they lack respect for other peoples feelings and true character.  These people who you call a cult are also your brothers and sisters, and your fellow citizens.  Why do you judge them and treat them so bad?  IS it because you know that they are very forgiving and won't fight back?  Maybe that is the reason.  But this is not right and you know it.  You should judge those who have committed crimes and have proven guilty in your cities.  But give them fair judgement, according to what they have done.  Do not judge those who are trying to make this world a better and safe place.  I know many mormon people who done a great job in my community, and they are very honest hardworking people.  They are the best of friends you can ever have in this life.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2003, 10:18:00 PM

I agree to what you have said.  All the Mormon prayers have been answered, maybe, on Elizabeth Smart. The local news in the Midwest is saluting the ?news? as a miracle. Without a doubt, God has intervened in behalf of Elizabeth Smart. The fact that she has been found after all these months PROVES that God answers prayers, particularly for Mormons. And it all happened to this wonderful, wealthy Mormon family! Praise the Lord! It was God?s miracle.

I know a lot of mormons too and yes, they are very good people.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2003, 09:49:00 PM

to the person who theorizes that elizabeth was sent away for 9 months because she was pregnant --you must be deranged.  your brain must be fried.  how do you find your way out of a paper bag.  you sound more bizarre than brian david mitchell.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2003, 11:50:00 PM

On 2003-03-17 19:13:00, Anonymous wrote: "Mormonism is not a cult.  visit http://www.lds.org (http://www.lds.org)   --->  before you judge a group of people or a Church, try investigating about it first.  The faith and prayers of this family has been heard by God.  What happened is a great miracle and it's a proven fact that these people, these mormons have been found worthy in the eyes of God because of their faith, commitment and obedience to His will for them.   One thing that is wrong with people is that sometimes they tend to be so proud and so wise of their knowledge of what they believe is right, they judge and judge but they lack respect for other peoples feelings and true character.  These people who you call a cult are also your brothers and sisters, and your fellow citizens.  Why do you judge them and treat them so bad?  IS it because you know that they are very forgiving and won't fight back?  Maybe that is the reason.  But this is not right and you know it.  You should judge those who have committed crimes and have proven guilty in your cities.  But give them fair judgement, according to what they have done.  Do not judge those who are trying to make this world a better and safe place.  I know many mormon people who done a great job in my community, and they are very honest hardworking people.  They are the best of friends you can ever have in this life. "

Yeah, right!
I've read all about the Angel baloney, oops, Morony.

Yupp, they're a cult, alright.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2003, 11:57:00 PM

On 2003-03-17 19:18:00, Anonymous wrote: "I agree to what you have said.  All the Mormon prayers have been answered, maybe, on Elizabeth Smart. The local news in the Midwest is saluting the ?news? as a miracle. Without a doubt, God has intervened in behalf of Elizabeth Smart. The fact that she has been found after all these months PROVES that God answers prayers, particularly for Mormons. And it all happened to this wonderful, wealthy Mormon family! Praise the Lord! It was God?s miracle. I know a lot of mormons too and yes, they are very good people. "

Sincere, good, devout?  hmmm maybe!
but, naive, misled, conned, misinformed and even    deluded?  definitely!

Your response (if it's not drippng with irony) convices me even more that Mormonism is a cult

There is no god.  so forget it.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 19, 2003, 01:01:00 PM

Why attack each other's faith, or lack of.
Aren't we more concerned with a kidnapping of a beautiful, loved young woman here? And wasn't she a good example of just how fragile, yet strong we are as humans? I mean, didn't she show her fragility by giving in to her captors (not unlike you and I) in order to survive. And by surviving the horrid circumstances, didn't she prove her inner strength and will to live.
The ones of us who care to pray should do so.
All of us should at least find the decency not to exploit her further by criticizing her family or even her. Duh. so you think any child would choose to go off with a creepy man who cut his way into their bedroom window. Right?

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 19, 2003, 02:57:00 PM

The point is, I think, that its the religious fundamentalists, including Mormons -- and I consider all religions to be, essentially cults  --- that got her into that sort of mess to begin with.

The kidnappers themselves were the product of the delusional thinking of the religionists.  
The Straights -- Semblers, Bushes, N. American fundamentalists of all stripes  -- are the ones responsible for the drug war and all the nasty, evil treatment centres that seek to impose their narrow interpretion on us all.  Frankly, I do agree with the  poster who said that there has to be more to this than meets the eye.  Maybe we'll find out at the trial,which may not be for some time.  But if there's a deal, maybe we'll never find out.  The history of scandals and cover-ups of cons by the Mormon Church Elders over the years in Utah has been extensively written about elsewhere.  

It's definitely a cult, but as I said before, as a victim I feel sorry for her.  But she's equally a victim.

atheist.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Antigen on March 20, 2003, 01:23:00 PM

I have to agree with you here, Anon. That's why WWASP, fundie christian boarding schools and similar organizations thrive so well in Utah, So. Dakota, Mississippi and other rural areas of the south. Utah can't do anything about the way these places operate because they operate just exactly like the Mormon versions. So they're essentially giving cover and shelter to other abusive, cultish groups in order to protect their own abusive, cultish groups.

See what happens whithout a seperation of church and state?

If people let government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2003, 12:20:00 PM

It seems that some of you are assuming that my original cult reference relates to Elizabeth Smart and her family as possible Mormons, and that Mormons are a cult and are responsible for setting the stage for the kidnap.  This is totally incorrect.  My cult reference relates to Brian David Mitchell and *his* beliefs and behavior.  He is the wacko, not the parents/family.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Majiktrvls on March 22, 2003, 08:08:00 PM

There is defintely no separation of church and state in Utah.
No other state that I have lived in has had a "seminary" on the Junior High and High School campuses. These are separate buildings ON the school campus that the kids go to during the school day. LDS students are allowed to take a credit course for attending this "seminary" class. In fact, if they don't choose to take these classes, they are deemed as being "unworthy" in the eyes of the church and risk being persecuted by fellow students, church leaders, parents, etc... Now, I may be stupid here, and I am defintely out of the LDS range, being Buddhist and all, but, I have to tell ya, I do not see any other states offering CHURCH as a school class. The Government is highly republican and is heavily "donated" to by the LDS church. Bought out is more like the word I should use. WE had hell to pay to get the liquor laws changed during the Olympics so that venues and restaurants could sell more than just beer. Recently, the LDS Church bought a huge mall in downtown Salt Lake City. How many other churches own their very own mall?

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 23, 2003, 01:00:00 AM

Which was precisely my point .  Yes, the kidnappers are a cult but they were the creation of the cult -- ie the Mormons.
But it took Karl Marx ( of the cult of Communism fame )  to recognize two factors important truths
1.  Religion (is) the opiate of the masses.
2.  "systems" contain the seeds of their own destruction (the dialectic)

The kidnappers were products of the Mormon church and are agents of its destruction.  
Interesting, too, that the thing most feared by the religionists are drugs, since it is the religion itself that has so doped up their capacity for critical thinking.
There is no god.

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 23, 2003, 05:54:00 PM

My post copied from thekidsbbs.com:
Thank God she was found. It's amazing enough that she was found alive. What's more amazing is that according to a source in the Salt Lake city police, she first denied that she was Elizabeth Smart and told police she had to keep her sunglasses on due to eye surgery. Even her dad said she had been brainwashed. Here is a tidbit from the Salt Lake Tribune that reminds me of our own ordeal:

"We have no idea what psychological or pressure manipulations he used with her," said Janja Lalich, a sociology professor at California State University, Chico, and author of Captive Hearts, Captive Minds and co-author with Margaret Singer of Cults in Our Midst.
Still, she said, past experiences show that "when you are removed from your normal environment and kept confined in some way, which we know [Elizabeth] must have been at the beginning, you can enter a very distorted reality," said Lalich. "If they are good at what they do, they use a punishment/reward system. It doesn't take much for your reality to shift."

This also happened to Patty Hearst of the cult "The Symbionese Liberation Organization". She was kidnapped, kept in a closet, raped, punished, and starved by the cult until she started to see thing their way. Next thing you know, she was robbing a bank and killing whoever who got in her way.

Sound familiar?

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 23, 2003, 11:04:00 PM

Yup!
And around that time there was a British movie about a boarding school  -- I think the title was "If.."
Did anyone see it?

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: ehm on March 24, 2003, 12:26:00 AM

On 2003-03-18 18:49:00, Anonymous wrote: "to the person who theorizes that elizabeth was sent away for 9 months because she was pregnant --you must be deranged.  your brain must be fried.  how do you find your way out of a paper bag.  you sound more bizarre than brian david mitchell. "

What? :question:

I know exactly what it feels like to want to get away from home so bad, that I was willing to live with this crazy 23 year old guy when I was 15 in a trailor, and I was a doctor's daughter. He thought he was the 2nd coming and the devil, completely insane. 15 is a very impressionable age. I was desparate and afraid. He beat me(hitting, choking, throwing,)raped me(forced sex) and locked me in his room daily, and I stayed with him, and remained in hiding just to not get sent away again by my mother who had no energy for parenting, and to much money. That was 16 years ago, and until recently, I never really gave it much thought because, I've spent to much time trying to move on and get away from the past. Because of all the horrible things I've been through though I have two mental disorders that are serious enough not to try and ignore anymore. I at 31, need to face it, and re-learn how to think about my life all over. My past almost destroyed my future. My long winded point is that, I was brainwashed by this guy. He had me believeing his insanity was real, and I wanted to. I just knew I couldn't go home, if I did, my mom would send me away. I was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. And she did send me away, that's how I landed in Straight. Before Straight, I was in a "boot-camp" for 18 months. Because I was a teen with  behavior problems?
"No."
 The problem was my reality. Not all parents with money are good. No-one that worked at Straight were concerned with my confessions of rape, I was made to believe that it was my fault, because I was a  "druggie." Being forced and tortured to conform, is evil. But after awhile, that's normal. Just like it was with Allen,(crazy 23 year old boyfriend)
I'm sorry, I do beleive religion is a cult mind set.It's like joining a club of morals or values. Yet belittleing those who don't follow. I'm glad to see past being a follower. My mother is a babtist, and wants to do missionary work, she just got fired from another job, and moved back in with her dying mother,(free condo, when she dies!) She's wearing my Grandmothers wedding ring which is a huge diamond because my Grandmother has lost so much weight,( weighs 85 lbs. currently)she can't wear it herself. She's not dead yet! My Grandma told me, "She stole it from me, because I can't wear it." My mother is so greedy, swisted, and pathetic. But, a good christian! :scared:
If there is anything, It's not found in your churches.
Call me kooky. I have my own mind thank you.

Secular Humanism is an idea though.                                   http://www.secularhumanism.org (http://www.secularhumanism.org)
Morli


[ This Message was edited by: Morli on 2003-03-24 08:06 ]

Title: Elizabeth Smart and cults...
Post by: Anonymous on March 25, 2003, 02:43:00 PM

I do agree the mormons are a cult.  However, they proclaim to be a religous organization.  I lived in utah, new york, and colorado.

The influence of "the church" in utah is out of control.  It's so bad, that I moved.  You go to any other state the mormons do not have the much control.

However, take in consideration the catholic church.  You can go state to state and still find influence from the church.  With mormons they just have one territory.  They are a cult.  

As for elizabeth smart, it's cool she is back.  I was at that party that she was at.  I never recognized her.  It's good she is safe, however this type of thing happens all day.  The only reason everybody knows Elizabeth's name is because her father is a capitalists.  

If this happened to the lower class it never would have been publized.