Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: Anonymous on March 01, 2007, 04:05:27 PM
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if the parents didn?t receive the services they paid for and their kids were abused
This is logically impossible. ("if not A" AND "if A")
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This is absurd. In what public or private school are the kids forbidden to speak to family for months on end? Name one.
My point is there are varying degrees of restriction. Your child can not speak to you during school hours in many schools, except during lunch. When I went to school you couldn?t use the phone unless you went to the principal?s office and used his phone. Many summer camps restrict the use of phones, kids would go on outward bound trips for months and only communicate a few times back home.
Uh, sounds good on paper, but when there's no mechanism to report abuse, the kid is shit out of luck. Also, the parents are manipulated so heavily by the program that if there kid complains to them, they are not believed. Often kids will not risk angering their parent or the program out of fear that they will be kept longer.
Your excuses just don't cut the mustard, Who.
I am not making excuses, just indicating that if abuse occurred the kids would tell their parents, if at anytime when they got home, if that is where they felt safer. The relationship between parents and child is much more open and honest after the family goes thru some of these processes that these types of things would be openly discussed, just stands to reason. All it takes is a few incidents and the schools would close down under litigation. After 2 decades there is enough "lack of incidences evidence" to indicate that many of these places are safe. Something would have surfaced, after 20 years, if there was a systemic problem.
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Arent most kids at summer camp for 6 weeks at an absolute max? Dont most write unsensored as often as every day?
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Arent most kids at summer camp for 6 weeks at an absolute max? Dont most write unsensored as often as every day?
Its closer to 4 weeks these days I believe oz girl, and kids can sit in their bunks at night and write letters or write in their diary/journal. They typically have a phone somewhere available for emergencies, but the kids are restricted from using it usually.
A neighbor kid went away on a teen outward bound type trip to Chile for 2 months and I dont think he could call more than once a week.
I know these may seem abusive/ restrictive to some but I was subjected to the same thing when I was young and I think many other parents were too. I think it is viewed as more of a hardship today because of all the cell phones kids have and the ability to call people 24/7. But not having a phone really isn?t abusive.
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But not having a phone really isn?t abusive
Ya know, Who, you run around making excuses (and saying theu're not excuses, BTW) for programs all day every day and the way you do it is to make utterly false analogies and then boil it down to a stupid conclusion not related to the premises of the statement you are trying to invalidate.
See above. We were talking about coerced "treatment" in a facility that the kids cannot leave, separated by distance and design, unable to write letters without being forced to write what tha facility says to, no telephone, no calls to home allowed, and no mechanism by which to report abuse.
And this is what your response is???
But not having a phone really isn?t abusive
What fucking planet are you on? You really are an asshole, you know that?
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See above. We were talking about coerced "treatment" in a facility that the kids cannot leave, separated by distance and design, unable to write letters without being forced to write what tha facility says to, no telephone, no calls to home allowed, and no mechanism by which to report abuse.
And this is what your response is???
No, No?.We were talking about regulation and why a business would seek it out and impose it on themselves. And someone wrote in:
Deborah wrote: ?.A program should do it because they are caring for a hundred or more kids who are not 'related' to them and subjecting them to god knows what, restricting communication with parents and the outside world.
I was indicating that restricting communication, in itself, is not abusive and sited a few examples on which I based my thoughts and conclusions. I am not excusing any practice by saying this.
Lets flip it over and take a look at it your way. Give every kids a cell phone and allow them to use it, at will, with unlimited hours, this could become abusive to other students and the teacher who are trying to listen and learn. How would this work out? Personally I would have concerns sending my child to a place that allowed this. Then if you told the kids they couldn?t use their phones during class time, this would be considered a restriction. How about a restriction disallowing a student to write a letter home while the teacher is speaking? Would this be too harsh and who is to decide?
I think there is a time and place for communication; too much access to phones/writing may be bad and too little may be bad also. But where do we draw the line? Where does it become abusive?
The school doesn?t feel it is abusive and neither do the parents so why would they seek out oversight to regulate what they do?
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One of the following is true:
1. TheWho is intentionally trying to cloud the issue
2. He/she/it honestly cannot tell the difference between allowing a kid to use a cell phone 24/7 and letting the kid call his parents without being listened in on once a day.
Either way, parents, you can all stop reading now. You now know the kind of people you're going to deal with if you make the horrible, perhaps fatal mistake of sending your kid to ASR. DON'T.
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Milk,
The parents know their own child? if the kid is being raped or abused by half the counselors she can just say ?Look Mom, the counselors are full of crap, they are raping me, come get me tonight or I am going to walk away on my own, you can find me at the local police station or hospital, goodbye?
Do you think the counselor can convince the parent that their child is just over reacting and to just have a good nights sleep??
Do you think this can happen over and over again and not make the headline news? Fox news would love to feature this stuff, any news agency would (even if it were half true). But it is not, we know that because parents would shut these places down in a heart beat if they even used language they hear here on fornits against them! You expose a kid to a book which discusses a family with same sex parents in the local public school system and heads start to role and litigation follows!!
Imagine what would happen if a kid got raped or abused on a Therapeutic boarding school or all places!! Talk about a story and headlines!! They have been operating for decades???.
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Milk,
The parents know their own child? if the kid is being raped or abused by half the counselors she can just say ?Look Mom, the counselors are full of crap, they are raping me, come get me tonight or I am going to walk away on my own, you can find me at the local police station or hospital, goodbye?
Do you think the counselor can convince the parent that their child is just over reacting and to just have a good nights sleep??
Do you think this can happen over and over again and not make the headline news? Fox news would love to feature this stuff, any news agency would (even if it were half true). But it is not, we know that because parents would shut these places down in a heart beat if they even used language they hear here on fornits against them! You expose a kid to a book which discusses a family with same sex parents in the local public school system and heads start to role and litigation follows!!
Imagine what would happen if a kid got raped or abused on a Therapeutic boarding school or all places!! Talk about a story and headlines!! They have been operating for decades???.
** Deception of parents by program staff is the norm not the exception.
** Abuse in programs happens regularly.
1) Kids beg their parents for help regularly in programs.
2) Parents go to program with the complaints.
3) Programs warn parents about manipulation.
4) Kids get left in program and are consquenced for manipulation.
Happens alot.
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You were way too easy on him, TSW.
Jesus Who, have you even been reading the same forum we are? Kids can just run away? Kids can call home anyway? Have you even seen what happens? The "counselor" is standing over the kid the whole time, and may even be conference called-in, ready to hit the terminate-call button the moment the kid starts talking about things like that, and reassure the parent that none of it is true and it's all just manipulation. Do you not know this? Or do you just not care?
The only way out of ASR is either to kill or permanently maim someone (and I'm seriously surprised more staff members aren't blinded by knives in eyeballs), or commit suicide.
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I'm still on vacation so can't be arsed to bother myself to much to be dealing with someone you all should no better than to be argueing with.
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You were way too easy on him, TSW.
Jesus Who, have you even been reading the same forum we are? Kids can just run away? Kids can call home anyway? Have you even seen what happens? The "counselor" is standing over the kid the whole time, and may even be conference called-in, ready to hit the terminate-call button the moment the kid starts talking about things like that, and reassure the parent that none of it is true and it's all just manipulation. Do you not know this? Or do you just not care?
The only way out of ASR is either to kill or permanently maim someone (and I'm seriously surprised more staff members aren't blinded by knives in eyeballs), or commit suicide.
Whoa?.Milk you were okay until you started describing a specific school, you know absolutely nothing about ASR (or most of these schools by listening to your response), you should talk to a graduate. Yes, kids can just run away if they like, there are no fences, my daughter attempted to run away that?s how I know. She was talked back to school by a counselor where she asked if she could call me , which she did. We spoke for about half an hour and then I called back and spoke to her counselor. There is no conferencing when the kids call home, no kill switch. The counselor (or a counselor) is in the room but there are many kids calling their parents at the same time ( I remember hearing other kids in the back ground). I also used the room to call home myself during one of my visits. The kids communicate fine and openly with their parents?.you are thinking of another place my friend.
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I am not making excuses, just indicating that if abuse occurred the kids would tell their parents, if at anytime when they got home, if that is where they felt safer. The relationship between parents and child is much more open and honest after the family goes thru some of these processes that these types of things would be openly discussed, just stands to reason.
None of that can be assumed or proven. One can NOT assume their child will tell them anything about the program after 12-24 months of intense daily conditioning.
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Not having a phone for 6 weeks when there is other non censored education I agree is non abusive. Having all contact monitored for 18 months allows abuse to flourish.
Who keeps mentioning no private company would want regulation and i agree. (before anyone thinks i have been injecting crack keep reading)
THIS IS WHY IT IS VITAL. No company is gong to put the needs of the kid before profit without being made to as it puts duty to sdhareholders before duty to the creater good. This is why there need to be enforcable laws.
Who also forgets that most private schools have to follow laws and regs in most countries. None object because parents are suspicious of places that feel they are above the law of the land! It alarms me that PPL dont feel this way about the industry
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It is more vital yall stop fucking bothering with the Boo. I can't see how its possible that you sad fucks find the time to even wipe your own ass after dropping a healthy shit with all the typing you all have been banging out in this orgy of mutual clusterfuckery.
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I am not making excuses, just indicating that if abuse occurred the kids would tell their parents, if at anytime when they got home, if that is where they felt safer. The relationship between parents and child is much more open and honest after the family goes thru some of these processes that these types of things would be openly discussed, just stands to reason.
None of that can be assumed or proven. One can NOT assume their child will tell them anything about the program after 12-24 months of intense daily conditioning.
Deborah, you watch the news every day like the rest of us. You seriously believe that these places abuse and rape our kids for decades and no one says anything? It might be believable if they came home and worshiped the schools like some cult and handed out fliers at the airport, but they don?t. Most kids do very well but others hated the place, still others may be indifferent and just want to move on, still others didn?t do good. But what they all have in common is that they were not abused or they would jump at the chance to stick it to their old school or the guy that raped them or show their parents that it wasn?t such a great investment etc. Of the tens of thousands that graduated you would think some would step forward and expose them. !00% of these kids (that apply) are accepted into college and most take advantage and move onto very good schools. With all this education you think these kids, some in government power positions now, would allow this to continue unchecked and unregulated?
I think it was milk that might had mentioned the counselors probably receive the physical and emotion abuse not the kids.
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Sure this is what happened in the Catholic system for a good 40 years! Not to mention all the Old boys and girls who claimed being belted every day by the jesuits was not abuse. Sound familiar. then sure enough surprise surprise it was discovered that a system which was cloistered and secretive allowed sexual abuse. What a surprise. Oh put this could never happen in a secular "therapeutic" system :rofl: :rofl: :roll:
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I am not making excuses, just indicating that if abuse occurred the kids would tell their parents, if at anytime when they got home, if that is where they felt safer. The relationship between parents and child is much more open and honest after the family goes thru some of these processes that these types of things would be openly discussed, just stands to reason.
None of that can be assumed or proven. One can NOT assume their child will tell them anything about the program after 12-24 months of intense daily conditioning.
Deborah, you watch the news every day like the rest of us. You seriously believe that these places abuse and rape our kids for decades and no one says anything?
Indeed I do. It's unfortunate these attrocities don't make the nightly news. Most never even make it into the local paper. You might see a TV report on a death, but rare. The day-to-day abuses, rapes? Won't happen.
It might be believable if they came home and worshiped the schools like some cult and handed out fliers at the airport, but they don?t.
Some do, like the young women (grads) I saw posting on a 39 year old male therapist's MySpace account. I looovvveee you, I misss you, I neeeedd you. I'll call you on your cell. Some actually go back as staff after being convinced that the program saved their lives. Actually, I think they want their turn playing sadist with defenseless teens.
But what they all have in common is that they were not abused or they would jump at the chance to stick it to their old school or the guy that raped them or show their parents that it wasn?t such a great investment etc. Of the tens of thousands that graduated you would think some would step forward and expose them.
You're very much out of touch. Lawsuits have been filed, partly responsible for the demise of CEDU. The average minor who exits a program doesn't have the knowledge or resource to persue a lawsuit, and will play hell convincing their parent of what happened inside the program. And unfortunately, there is some number of parents who would actually condone the abuse as long as they received a stepford child in return.
!00% of these kids (that apply) are accepted into college and most take advantage and move onto very good schools.
100%? Cite that. You clearly haven't studied this industry. Read MySpace, read Fornits. Notice how many flunk out of college because the are ill prepared. How many kids exit programs and go directly to college anyway? My son was 5 credits behind his peers when he returned from his 'college prep' TBS. Had to attend summer school in order to graduate with his class. Hey, in case you haven't heard, damn near anyone can go to college these days. Just read recently that there are kids without a diploma or GED getting in.
With all this education you think these kids, some in government power positions now, would allow this to continue unchecked and unregulated?
You sh0uld spend more time reading here and less time typing about things you know nothing about. There are a few who post here who are persuing a degree in the legal field and hope to use that education against the industry.
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TheWho said:
The parents know their own child? if the kid is being raped or abused by half the counselors she can just say ?Look Mom, the counselors are full of crap, they are raping me, come get me tonight or I am going to walk away on my own, you can find me at the local police station or hospital, goodbye?
Which telephone are they supposed to use for this function, Who? THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO REPORT ABUSE OR EVEN TO USE A TELEPHONE AT ALL. This is the part you're missing.
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TheWho said:
The parents know their own child? if the kid is being raped or abused by half the counselors she can just say ?Look Mom, the counselors are full of crap, they are raping me, come get me tonight or I am going to walk away on my own, you can find me at the local police station or hospital, goodbye?
Which telephone are they supposed to use for this function, Who? THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO REPORT ABUSE OR EVEN TO USE A TELEPHONE AT ALL. This is the part you're missing.
I take it you dont know much about ASR. My daughter called every week, she could tell me then or walk down to the center of town and use the phone at the store.
If they were in wilderness they could call the cops when they get out, it only takes one kid getting raped to shut the place down, even as a minimum for an investigation.
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100%? Cite that. You clearly haven't studied this industry.
??.ASR is proud to be able to state that 100 percent (http://http://www.petersons.com/PSchools/code/IDD.asp?orderLineNum=529892-2&inunId=2955&typeVC=InstVC&sponsor=1)of its students who graduate high school are able to pursue higher education at the college or university of their choice.?
You sh0uld spend more time reading here and less time typing about things you know nothing about. There are a few who post here who are persuing a degree in the legal field and hope to use that education against the industry.
I read quite a bit here, Deborah. If there are a few here on Fornits, imagine how many are out there in power positions at the height of their careers. If they felt they were abused, they would have done something decades ago.
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Nice try, but you weren't refering to ASR specifically. You were talking about tens of thousands of kids who've graduated programs. Cite that.
And if ASR says it, it must be true, huh? :rofl:
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Nice try, but you weren't refering to ASR specifically. You were talking about tens of thousands of kids who've graduated programs. Cite that.
I thought everyone here is of the mindset that all TBS?s are alike? You mean there could be differences? Some good some bad? That seems novel and refreshing for fornits?.okay my bad?.. based on the assumption that not all TBS?s are alike we would have to conclude that some are at 100% and others are lower than that.
And if ASR says it, it must be true, huh?
You have used their web site many times as reference to support your posts. Lets not impose a double standard.
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Cindy you are using your limited experience with ASR as a basis for the entire industry. This makes no sense.
No more sense then you using your own limited experience with ASR as a basis for every kid in the school. You have no idea if kids were abused there or not, all you know is that none of the kids you spoke to claimed to be abused.
Nothing more. I think you would find alot less resistiance if you would stop claiming your personal experiences to be the end all thing when it comes to this industry.
For example in your claims that any kids being abused at their respective facility would be able to report the abuse is untrue.
Keep in mind that at HLA and in many similar facilities kids are prevented from talking to their parents on the phone for the first month.
Whatsmore all outgoing communication is monitered and censored. No reports of abuse are allowed to be communicated. During this month the parents are inundated with reports that:
A. Little Johnny is fine
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B. He will probably tell you he is being abused, don't believe him.
Over and over and over again parents are told this. When the child finally does get to talk to his parents a staffer is standing by to hang up the phone at any hint of "manipulation" or reporting of abuse. Later when the child is allowed to visit his parents, they are told repeatedly again that the child will lie and manipulate and any reports of such should be reported to the staff. Once the parents do so the child is of course punished.
Later on when the child finally escapes either through leaving on his own, being pulled, or graduating, more often then not most of them don't want to even think about what they went through, let alone try and prove that it all happened. You'll find this similar circumstance in many rape victims. They dont want to go through the ordeal of having to reveal what happened to them and face their attacker so they opt for simply letting it go and moving on.
You may scoff at all of this if you choose but remember I suffered at the hands of this industry youre claiming doesnt abuse kids.
I know I was abused.
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I think you would find alot less resistiance if you would stop claiming your personal experiences to be the end all thing when it comes to this industry.
Well, Robert, this is the nut of it, isn't it? When someone's ego is SO BIG that they feel like if they don't know something, then that something never was...
TheWho has an absolutely gigantic, yet fragile ego that he needs to stroke every day by one, never ever admitting he was wrong about anything, and two, to belittle anyone who says different.
This is not a "normal" person, Robert.
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You see one problem I struggle with is I hear that all TBS?s are the same and they are all abusive. Yet when I post my experience with one of the TBS?s I am accused of ?using your limited experience with ASR as a basis for the entire industry?.?. If you had a bad experience with HLA I can believe and accept that and they should be exposed. But I have heard posters indicate time and again about how bad ASR is and this is based on their limited experience with a different school.
I read extensively here and recognize there are differences from school to school, I find it strange that many claim to also read but don?t see this distinction?? anyway??.I Don?t recommend all TBS?s to parents, only the programs I know of, but if you flip that around, people who have knowledge of one TBS here on fornits many times conclude that they are all bad ? this is a double standard.
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You see one problem I struggle with is I hear that all TBS?s are the same and they are all abusive. Yet when I post my experience with one of the TBS?s I am accused of ?using your limited experience with ASR as a basis for the entire industry?.?. If you had a bad experience with HLA I can believe and accept that and they should be exposed. But I have heard posters indicate time and again about how bad ASR is and this is based on their limited experience with a different school.
I read extensively here and recognize there are differences from school to school, I find it strange that many claim to also read but don?t see this distinction?? anyway??.I Don?t recommend all TBS?s to parents, only the programs I know of, but if you flip that around, people who have knowledge of one TBS here on fornits many times conclude that they are all bad ? this is a double standard.
I think I can help you with this. Almost ALL programs are built upon a foundation that has proven to be ineffective at best (i.e. any noticeable changes in the subject are created by the subject, not the program) and damaging at worst. These programs share one ideology and it is deeply, deeply flawed.
The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT. All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT. So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.
So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.
Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed. You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.
HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.
So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE! The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.
OK?
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I agree that we shouldnt use generalizations but I think if you read a little closer youll find that they arent quite as prevalent on here as you think.
For example you claim that many posters on here state that all TBS's are abusive. I agree that some do but I think more often than not what youll find is that rather than stating every TBS abuses kids people state that the methods, specifically coercive therapy used by (so far as I know) all TBS's are in fact abusive.
Now more of a concern then generalizations I think is you once again discounting peoples experiences.
Why do you continue to do this? Simply because you didnt hear about something in no way suggest it never occured. A great many things happen in the world that arent mentioned on the 6 o'clock news. Espically when people are actively trying to cover them up as they do in this industry.
Also back to the original topic, I wonder do you support the health department visiting resturants?
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The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT. All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT. So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.
So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.
I think it can be said that when it comes to children there are no voluntary treatments. I don?t believe many kids approach their parents and say ?Mom, Dad, I think I would like to speak to a therapist?. If we were held to this requirement not many kids would get help. Until a child is 18 it is up the parents to get them the treatment needed. The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track. There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step. The therapy can be introduced after they settle in.
Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed. You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.
HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.
So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE! The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.
OK?
No, I am not. The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push. How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track. Some parents will goes as far as saying? You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity? I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.
As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.
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I agree that we shouldnt use generalizations but I think if you read a little closer youll find that they arent quite as prevalent on here as you think.
For example you claim that many posters on here state that all TBS's are abusive. I agree that some do but I think more often than not what youll find is that rather than stating every TBS abuses kids people state that the methods, specifically coercive therapy used by (so far as I know) all TBS's are in fact abusive.
Now more of a concern then generalizations I think is you once again discounting peoples experiences.
Why do you continue to do this? Simply because you didnt hear about something in no way suggest it never occured. A great many things happen in the world that arent mentioned on the 6 o'clock news. Espically when people are actively trying to cover them up as they do in this industry.
You keep repeating that I dismiss people?s experiences, where did you read this? If you felt I did at any point, let me know and I will apologize. I listen to each person that speaks to me and I recognize their experience.
Also back to the original topic, I wonder do you support the health department visiting resturants?
I didn?t see this as the original topic? But to answer your question, Yes, I do.
Bob, do you have any people to add (that I might have missed) for 2001 - 2002 data?
You can answer this in the "Thewho" thread. Didnt mean to side track the topic
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The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track. There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step.
There is absolutely no basis for this claim whatsoever. You cannot expect people to have real discussions with you if all you are going to do is spout off program propoganda.
No, I am not. The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push. How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track. Some parents will goes as far as saying? You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity? I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.
Call up any licensed psychologist and they will all tell you the same thing; You cannot force anyone child or adult to accept or participate in therapy unless they are ready. It simply will not work, espically when threats are used to illicit participation.
Coercive therapy does not work and it is abusive.
As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.
This is entirely untrue, but Id be interested in hearing the basis for your statement.
You keep repeating that I dismiss people?s experiences, where did you read this? If you felt I did at any point, let me know and I will apologize. I listen to each person that speaks to me and I recognize their experience.
By doubting the abuse that people claim occurs or even downplaying it you are dismissing their claims.
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Also back to the original topic, I wonder do you support the health department visiting resturants?
I didn?t see this as the original topic? But to answer your question, Yes, I do.
Why? I'm sure they feel that all the food they serve is safe and everything is clean? Would they want to take time out of their day to cater to the health dept if they feel they are doing a good job? Why is it important?
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Call up any licensed psychologist and they will all tell you the same thing; You cannot force anyone child or adult to accept or participate in therapy unless they are ready. It simply will not work, espically when threats are used to illicit participation.
Coercive therapy does not work and it is abusive.
Agreed, not continuously forced, no therapy will not work. You may have to force their hand a little to get them started. Once the child feels safe enough with the person/people around them they are able to start dealing with some of the issues that may be holding them back or sidetracking them.
Therapists are the ones that recommend many of these schools and they work side by side with the school therapists. I think this is important because if the program isn?t working there is an extra communication link which can help redirect the child?s treatment.
By doubting the abuse that people claim occurs or even downplaying it you are dismissing their claims.
I don?t believe I have doubted people?s stories nor down played them.
Why? I'm sure they feel that all the food they serve is safe and everything is clean? Would they want to take time out of their day to cater to the health dept if they feel they are doing a good job? Why is it important?
Good question?.. There was a time I remember when places were being closed down by the board of health left and right and anytime I went into a restaurant I would look for their license or rating (A,B,B- etc.) which would be on the wall. This would give me a sense that I wasn?t going to get poisoned/sick.
The owner of the place knew their food was safe but the public/ health department was mandating this as a requirement. Once they got it and it was a good rating they were happy to display it prominently on their wall.
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Agreed, not continuously forced, no therapy will not work. You may have to force their hand a little to get them started. Once the child feels safe enough with the person/people around them they are able to start dealing with some of the issues that may be holding them back or sidetracking them.
and what if the child never feels ready? What if he never feels safe? The TBS's answer is to drop them into a lower peer group, how do you feel those kids should be dealt with?
Therapists are the ones that recommend many of these schools and they work side by side with the school therapists. I think this is important because if the program isn?t working there is an extra communication link which can help redirect the child?s treatment.
True, but it has been establsihed often times those same therapist have no clue about whats really happening inside.
I don?t believe I have doubted people?s stories nor down played them.
Sure you have, take a look:
Do you think this can happen over and over again and not make the headline news? Fox news would love to feature this stuff, any news agency would (even if it were half true). But it is not, we know that because parents would shut these places down in a heart beat if they even used language they hear here on fornits against them!
Imagine what would happen if a kid got raped or abused on a Therapeutic boarding school or all places!! Talk about a story and headlines!! They have been operating for decades???.
After 2 decades there is enough "lack of incidences evidence" to indicate that many of these places are safe. Something would have surfaced, after 20 years, if there was a systemic problem.
So then with that in mind my question to you remains. Why do you continue to dismiss and downplay the claims of abuse people make against these places?
Good question?.. There was a time I remember when places were being closed down by the board of health left and right and anytime I went into a restaurant I would look for their license or rating (A,B,B- etc.) which would be on the wall. This would give me a sense that I wasn?t going to get poisoned/sick.
The owner of the place knew their food was safe but the public/ health department was mandating this as a requirement. Once they got it and it was a good rating they were happy to display it prominently n their wall.
So again my question to you remains, why would resturants subject themselves to health inspectors if they already know they are doing a good job? Why is it important?
I'm also still waiting on an answer to this:
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As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.
This is entirely untrue, but Id be interested in hearing the basis for your statement.
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and what if the child never feels ready? What if he never feels safe? The TBS's answer is to drop them into a lower peer group, how do you feel those kids should be dealt with?
If the child never feels ready, which happens, then the family, therapists and school need to get together and define further steps.
So then with that in mind my question to you remains. Why do you continue to dismiss and downplay the claims of abuse people make against these places?
You posted a few of my past quotes, but I don?t see how this is dismissing or downplay peoples claims they were abused.
So again my question to you remains, why would resturants subject themselves to health inspectors if they already know they are doing a good job? Why is it important?
Well, I think it is because they are forced to because if they don?t the Health department will put a lock on their door and a sign, which isn?t good for business.
As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.
This is entirely untrue, but Id be interested in hearing the basis for your statement.
When a child is abused or a teacher hits a student this becomes a huge issue in the area I live in and heads start rolling even before there is any court time. If kids are getting abused we will hear about it.
Bob -- Do you have any data to add to the dataset? Do you want to move on to 2002- 2003?
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If the child never feels ready, which happens, then the family, therapists and school need to get together and define further steps.
Such as?
You posted a few of my past quotes, but I don?t see how this is dismissing or downplay peoples claims they were abused.
Then you werent paying atttention. In the quotes you repeatedly claim the abuse either isnt occuring or isnt as prevalent as we make it out to be. I'm not sure how once can interpret your comments any other way but I'm more than willing to hear an alternative explination if youve got one. If not my orginal question remains.
Why do you continue to downplay and dismiss peoples claims about abuse in these places?
Well, I think it is because they are forced to because if they don?t the Health department will put a lock on their door and a sign, which isn?t good for business.
But why is it important? Why does the health inspector need to come at all?
When a child is abused or a teacher hits a student this becomes a huge issue in the area I live in and heads start rolling even before there is any court time. If kids are getting abused we will hear about it.
I see. So then is it your beliefe that if you did not hear about or see something occur it did not happen?
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Such as?
Not really sure,specifically, I think it depends on the child. If the childs therapists feels he/she would benefit by staying longer at the present school in hopes the child will open up and respond then they may go that way. They could increase the number of therapy hours (one on one), introduce a different method. Maybe ease up on academics for awhile to give the child more freedom and less pressure to perform at school if that is an issue?..etc.
Why do you continue to downplay and dismiss peoples claims about abuse in these places?
I think the difficulty you are having with some of my responses is that I don?t feel the abuse is wide spread or systemic, whereas many people here do. The signs just are not there for me. Sure there have been kids abused. Kids are abused everywhere kids live and learn, but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.
But why is it important? Why does the health inspector need to come at all?
Because it is important to the people. People get sick or food poisoning and some die and they rise up and demand their government regulate the industry. So it becomes the law and every restaurant that serves food needs to be inspected and their rating needs to be prominently displayed.
I see. So then is it your beliefe that if you did not hear about or see something occur it did not happen?
No, I don?t believe in all that ?If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there does it make a sound?.?. But If I told you someone shot the president and you turned on the TV and nothing was being aired about it on the national channels. I think you may doubt my statement.
If the news media gets a hold a good story they are not going sit on it.
Bob -- Do you have any data to add to the dataset? Do you want to move on to 2002- 2003?
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Not really sure,specifically, I think it depends on the child. If the childs therapists feels he/she would benefit by staying longer at the present school in hopes the child will open up and respond then they may go that way. They could increase the number of therapy hours (one on one), introduce a different method. Maybe ease up on academics for awhile to give the child more freedom and less pressure to perform at school if that is an issue?..etc.
All of which do nothing to address the fact that the kid is not ready for therapy.
I think the difficulty you are having with some of my responses is that I don?t feel the abuse is wide spread or systemic whereas many people here do.The signs just are not there for me. Sure there have been kids abused. Kids are abused everywhere kids live and learn, but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.
Cindy pay very close attention to your own words and then answer the following question: Why do you continue to dismiss or down play peoples claims about abuse in these places?
If youre still confused ask yourself how it's possible to both accept peoples statements at face value and doubt the veracity of their statements at the same time.
Because it is important to the people. People get sick or food poisoning and some die and they rise up and demand their government regulate the industry. So it becomes the law and every restaurant that serves food needs to be inspected and their rating needs to be prominently displayed.
So youre saying that govt regulation can be a good thing for the customers?
No, I don?t believe in all that ?If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there does it make a sound?.?. But If I told you someone shot the president and you turned on the TV and nothing was being aired about it on the national channels. I think you may doubt my statement.
If the news media gets a hold a good story they are not going sit on it.
The difference is this, you would be hard pressed to find a person of average intelligence in this country who does not know one that we have a President but two who he is. On that same note the majority of people in this country know little to nothing about TBS's if they even know they exist at all. Add that to the fact that these places work very hard at covering up what does go on there and youre left with the end result.
Case in point, throughout our safety discussion I and others have thrown out numerous names of kids who have died in these places. Prior to this discussion had you ever heard of any of them?
Oh and...but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.
You dont know this to be true at all, this would be evidence of you reaching a concluscion before all the data has been examined. Proof of your agenda.
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I guess I continue to answer all of your questions, but you wont reciprocate.
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I guess so. Move on to another year if you want.
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I don?t feel the abuse is wide spread or systemic whereas many people here do.The signs just are not there for me.
I am not saying abuse doesn?t exist, I am saying it isn?t out of whack with the rest of the world.
So youre saying that govt regulation can be a good thing for the customers?
Yes it definitely can be if adequately funded for both sides and implemented slowly and properly.
but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.
I guess I should have said, ?From what I have seen, thus far??, it is my opinion??..?
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I am not saying abuse doesn?t exist, I am saying it isn?t out of whack with the rest of the world.
So because child abuse is common its not that big of a deal????
Of course this contridicts your earlier comment that if the abuse was really as prevalent as we make it out to be it would be on the news. You cant have it both ways.
Yes it definitely can be if adequately funded for both sides and implemented slowly and properly.
Funded for both sides? Is 12 years enough time to implement regulation?
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but TBS are immensely safe compared to the public school system.
I guess I should have said, ?From what I have seen, thus far??, it is my opinion??..?
Based on what? You keep dismissing the abuse.
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So because child abuse is common its not that big of a deal????
Hmmm. Not sure I said that. You keep wanting me to say I dismiss abuse when I don?t. Abuse occurs, all over and we need to get rid of it.. I think what we need to establish is where kids can be the safest from being abused. I think TBS?s are a safe place, I think some public schools are less safe. I believe some of the numbers are supporting this assertion.
You may have a different point of view, Bob, It doesn?t make you intrinsically wrong, we are just looking at it from different angles. I could accuse you of not seeing it my way and dismissing the fact that the public school systems are always in the news with stories of teachers raping students and shootings etc. and you dismiss the fact that TBS?s are never in the news. But I don?t work that way and I don?t think that is a true reflection on a persons beliefs
Funded for both sides? Is 12 years enough time to implement regulation?
Too much time, should have been done in 3 years tops. Look at how quickly it took to get regulation on the food industry.
Based on what? You keep dismissing the abuse.
Based on some preliminary numbers we are seeing.
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But Who you continually dismiss abuse. Here are some occasions thus far.
-You have no problem with ASRs policy of having kids carry "symbolic" rocks as featured in What it takes....
-You are OK with coerced therapy even if it ends with students weeping in the foetal position on the floor
-You dont see that if a program is a profit making venture it should have any regulatory oversite because it is a law unto itself. This is an environment which by its nature encurages abuse to flourish.
-You have no problem with Escorts being employed to take terrified kids in the middle of the night
-You are ok with incarceration without trial or medical evidence of a mental illness so severe that the child and community are at risk
-You see no problem with strip searches or a wilderness programme which drastically limits food intake while forcing hardcore excercise
-You see no problem with a girl who is anorexic and possibly still detoxing from a cocktail of drugs going on this.
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The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT. All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT. So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.
So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.
I think it can be said that when it comes to children there are no voluntary treatments. I don?t believe many kids approach their parents and say ?Mom, Dad, I think I would like to speak to a therapist?. If we were held to this requirement not many kids would get help. Until a child is 18 it is up the parents to get them the treatment needed. The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track. There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step. The therapy can be introduced after they settle in.
Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed. You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.
HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.
So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE! The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.
OK?
No, I am not. The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push. How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track. Some parents will goes as far as saying? You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity? I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.
As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.
Wow. I just don't know where even to start debunking this steaming pile...
COERCED treatment does not work. Period. Children cannot be forced to be "therapized" in the most restrictive environment other than a lock-down pych center or jail. It cannot work and does not work. Show me a single clinical study that shows it does and I'll crack the door on that argument, but until I see compelling scientific evidence, I must side with a century's worth of scientific evidence that says it doesn't.
Perpetrators: Not only are they not dealt with swiftly, often they're not dealt with at all and continue to abuse children in their care for decades. Example : Rudy Bentz. Another example (too little too late): Randall Hinton - 20 years of abusing kids, pepper spraying them and locking them in dog cages and all we have is a single assault charge from this year. Bad, bad record of accountability and enforcement. That's just two examples, but I could make a very, very long list.
This is why nobody listens to what you say, Who. You are just woefully uninformed and even when spoonfed the documented facts from court records, criminal hearings, etc you still remain in DENIAL OF THE FACTS.
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The basis by which one can claim "all programs are the same" is that NONE OF THEM ARE VOLUNTARY and that being said TREATMENT CANNOT BE FORCED UPON A SUBJECT. All programs fit this description and are therefore, BY DESIGN, ABUSIVE TO THE PATIENT. So, they are ALL THE SAME - forced treatment.
So the very model upon which these places are built is inherently abusive.
I think it can be said that when it comes to children there are no voluntary treatments. I don?t believe many kids approach their parents and say ?Mom, Dad, I think I would like to speak to a therapist?. If we were held to this requirement not many kids would get help. Until a child is 18 it is up the parents to get them the treatment needed. The child may not be a happy camper his/her first few days there, but eventually they come to feel safe and find it becomes a place where they can talk about any issues they may have, get back on track. There couldn?t be a safer place for most of these kids and I believe kids cant begin to heal until they feel safe and this is the first step. The therapy can be introduced after they settle in.
Now, what you're referring to is various and sundry forms of allegory abuse that occurs at these places where kids are beaten, starved, raped and sometimes even killed. You say that all these places are different based on this TYPE of abuse, and that's true.
HOWEVER, they are all COERCED TREATMENT facilities and so, by mental health guidelines are ABUSIVE, as treatment can ONLY BE ENTERED INTO VOLUNTARILY.
So, what you're saying is that there are all kinds of abuse and not every faciltiy PHYSICALLY abuses kids in the same manner, and IT'S TRUE! The elephant in the room that you are not seeing is that they are ALL ABUSIVE based on their ideology.
OK?
No, I am not. The treatment may be involuntary at first, sure, kids need a little push. How many kids say they don?t want to join the swim team or track. Some parents will goes as far as saying? You wont get a cell phone unless you join an extra curricular activity? I know this may seem abusive to some, but most kids end up enjoying it after they get exposed to it.
As far as the kids getting physically abused, at a TBS, this is an overwhelming minority and the perpetrators are dealt with quickly like they are when it happens in our local public school system and local programs.
Wow. I just don't know where even to start debunking this steaming pile...
COERCED treatment does not work. Period. Children cannot be forced to be "therapized" in the most restrictive environment other than a lock-down pych center or jail. It cannot work and does not work. Show me a single clinical study that shows it does and I'll crack the door on that argument, but until I see compelling scientific evidence, I must side with a century's worth of scientific evidence that says it doesn't.
Perpetrators: Not only are they not dealt with swiftly, often they're not dealt with at all and continue to abuse children in their care for decades. Example : Rudy Bentz. Another example (too little too late): Randall Hinton - 20 years of abusing kids, pepper spraying them and locking them in dog cages and all we have is a single assault charge from this year. Bad, bad record of accountability and enforcement. That's just two examples, but I could make a very, very long list.
This is why nobody listens to what you say, Who. You are just woefully uninformed and even when spoonfed the documented facts from court records, criminal hearings, etc you still remain in DENIAL OF THE FACTS.
Agreed!! The child needs to be place in the ?Least restrictive environment?, for some this is a therapists office for others it is a lock down psych or jail.
These TBS?s are not locked down facilities. You can leave anytime you want. When the child feels safe and settled in enough to work on his/her issues then the therapy can begin, not before. These are not my feelings alone, DJ, the schools come highly recommended by therapists, the kids are treated by therapists and work with the childs home support team who are typically (or include) therapists. If there is ever a concern about the child not getting the proper treatment or abuse is occurring there are many avenues to report it.
As far as abuse goes, sure I have said before and I?ll say it again?..abuse occurs everywhere that children go to school, reside and play. We can site individual cases in the public and private sector. The trick is to identify the place that is safest for the child to be.
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Agreed!! The child needs to be place in the ?Least restrictive environment?, for some this is a therapists office for others it is a lock down psych or jail.
And, again, I'll use your kid as an example. You've stated many times that your daughter had no psychiatric disorder and was not diagnosed as having any psychological problems.
So, my question is "What's the least restrictive environment for kids who carry no psychiatric diagnosis and therefore need no 'treatment' for such?"
See, by definition kids carrying no diagnosis need no treatment. How do you explain coerced psychological treatment for those with no mental hygiene issues?
Also, you generalize when you say any kid can walk out of any TBS at any time without restraint or coercion. That is a false statement, Who. Demonstrably false. Again, this is why nobody listens to your POV.
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And, again, I'll use your kid as an example. You've stated many times that your daughter had no psychiatric disorder and was not diagnosed as having any psychological problems.
So, my question is "What's the least restrictive environment for kids who carry no psychiatric diagnosis and therefore need no 'treatment' for such?"
I refer this to the child?s psychologist or therapist. I believe as a parent you need to start at the local level and try to work with a therapist as one of the initial steps for your child. For some children the least restrictive would be a home environment for others it would require a more restrictive setting. For my daughter the TBS was a good balance for her and worked out well and was the least restrictive path we could have taken.
If a child doesn?t need treatment then there is no action needed.
Also, you generalize when you say any kid can walk out of any TBS at any time without restraint or coercion. That is a false statement, Who. Demonstrably false. Again, this is why nobody listens to your POV.
Calm down, we are in the ASR thread, DJ, but you are right we wouldn?t want to make the statement or jump to the assumption that all TBS?s are the same would we? (wink) At least you didn?t point your finger and yell liar, liar. This is a more civil discussion.
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If a child doesn?t need treatment then there is no action needed.
"Needs treatment" means "has been diagnosed with a quantifiable mental illness." If no diagnosed disorder, no treatment of any kind is needed.
What was your daughter's psychiatric diagnosis for which she required extremely restrictive (residential) treatment?
If they carry no diagnosis from a professional, what are they being "treated" for?
How can the least restrictive environment for someone with no diagnosis be out of home placement?
How do you justify forcing patients into treatment even though they have never been diagnosed with any disorder?
If, by professional standards, only kids (or people in general) need out of home placement if they are a danger to themselves or others (i.e. tried to kill self or other), how is it justified that kids are sent to out of home placements for no psychiatric reasons whatsoever?
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If a child doesn?t need treatment then there is no action needed.
"Needs treatment" means "has been diagnosed with a quantifiable mental illness." If no diagnosed disorder, no treatment of any kind is needed.
What was your daughter's psychiatric diagnosis for which she required extremely restrictive (residential) treatment?
If they carry no diagnosis from a professional, what are they being "treated" for?
How can the least restrictive environment for someone with no diagnosis be out of home placement?
How do you justify forcing patients into treatment even though they have never been diagnosed with any disorder?
If, by professional standards, only kids (or people in general) need out of home placement if they are a danger to themselves or others (i.e. tried to kill self or other), how is it justified that kids are sent to out of home placements for no psychiatric reasons whatsoever?
Many of these kids are ?at risk? and have gotten off track. To wait until they are in their mid-twenties to be diagnosed with a mental illness or addicted to heroin, HIV , missed education or worse before taking action is an antiquated approach at best. The schools offer a proactive approach. I realize the importance for many people to label others and the need to have a mental illness in order to get services or help. But there are parents with kids who need a little help to get them back on track. Some may have clinical disorders some may not, the kids are presently not responding to local solutions so further steps are needed. Services which require the child to be away from the home and placed in a safe environment where they can focus on their issues without interfering outside stimuli and also further their education.
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But there are parents with kids who need a little help to get them back on track.
It's called "parenting." You should try it sometime.
Of course local resources can't help a kid that has nothing wrong with them. Adolescence is not a pathology to be treated.
I can see you being turned away for demanding that someone take custody of your kid and force her into therapy even though she has no diagnosable disorder. I'd say "Looks like you're the one who needs some help there, Dad. Kid tests out as normal in every respect. There's no way I'll treat your kid just because you said so and you'll pay top dollar for it!"
This is where ASR steps in. They will treat your kid based on no diagnosis and force her to participate in therapy several times a week and punish her as a matter of routine simply because you said so and will pay top dollar for it.
It's immoral, unethical and should be illegal.
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Of course local resources can't help a kid that has nothing wrong with them. Adolescence is not a pathology to be treated.
Ah?full circle...so back to the ?turn a deaf ear and it will go away?. The ?Do nothing mentality?. Well there are many families that disagree with you and many more that have healthy kids who are back on track because of these programs. Maybe you wouldn?t care enough to get your kids help if they were in crisis or maybe you would gamble and close your eyes and hope for the best.
But there are many parents who care very much and need to do all they can for their children and wont trust their child?s future to chance.
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Maybe you wouldn?t care enough to get your kids help if they were in crisis or maybe you would gamble and close your eyes and hope for the best.
Awww...strictly with personal insults, but I'll bite.
I would raise my kid correctly and not send him/her away to a treatment center for being a teenager.
You keep saying you sent your kid to treatment, but you never say what the treatment's for.
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But there are many parents who care very much and need to do all they can for their children and wont trust their child?s future to chance.
Why the false dichotomy? Either you send your kid to a treatment facility or do nothing? Doesn't that leave out a few options? For normal people it does, but for programmies, it doesn't. If you don't place your kid at their facility, then you're doing "nothing." That's a load of shit.
You chose to have someone else deal with your familiy's problems. When the going got tough (which I doubt it ever really did), you folded like a cheap suitcase. In reality, you did nothing, then sent your kid away so you could continue doing nothing.
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You chose to have someone else deal with your familiy's problems.
Its called help, DJ, I don?t pretend to have all the answers like you do?..too bad your family will never have the benefit of professional help outside the home if there is ever a need for it
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You chose to have someone else deal with your familiy's problems.
Its called help, DJ, I don?t pretend to have all the answers like you do?..too bad your family will never have the benefit of professional help outside the home if there is ever a need for it
Where do you get this from? Are you saying I would withhold medical care? Why would you make a statement like this? I just wouldn't do what you did. I wouldn't put my kid in a residential facility for no quantifiable reason. That's what you did. I just said I disagreed with it.
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You chose to have someone else deal with your familiy's problems.
Its called help, DJ, I don?t pretend to have all the answers like you do?..too bad your family will never have the benefit of professional help outside the home if there is ever a need for it
Where do you get this from? Are you saying I would withhold medical care? Why would you make a statement like this? I just wouldn't do what you did. I wouldn't put my kid in a residential facility for no quantifiable reason. That's what you did. I just said I disagreed with it.
Well if you are not going to let anyone else deal with your families problems then how will you get you family the help it needs if a medical problem occured?
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Of course local resources can't help a kid that has nothing wrong with them. Adolescence is not a pathology to be treated.
Ah?full circle...so back to the ?turn a deaf ear and it will go away?. The ?Do nothing mentality?. Well there are many families that disagree with you and many more that have healthy kids who are back on track because of these programs. Maybe you wouldn?t care enough to get your kids help if they were in crisis or maybe you would gamble and close your eyes and hope for the best.
But there are many parents who care very much and need to do all they can for their children and wont trust their child?s future to chance.
What was your daughter "treated" for? As I recall, truancy.
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Of course local resources can't help a kid that has nothing wrong with them. Adolescence is not a pathology to be treated.
Ah?full circle...so back to the ?turn a deaf ear and it will go away?. The ?Do nothing mentality?. Well there are many families that disagree with you and many more that have healthy kids who are back on track because of these programs. Maybe you wouldn?t care enough to get your kids help if they were in crisis or maybe you would gamble and close your eyes and hope for the best.
But there are many parents who care very much and need to do all they can for their children and wont trust their child?s future to chance.
What was your daughter "treated" for? As I recall, truancy.
No, it was more than just not going to school. That was just part of it. She was struggling in many areas and we worked with local therapists to help her get back on track, to no avail. If TBS?s did not exist, I am not sure what path we would have taken or options that would have helped.
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Hmmm. Not sure I said that. You keep wanting me to say I dismiss abuse when I don?t.
Sure you do. I don't need you to say it because its already obvious. What I'm looking for from you at this point is either a justification for why you continue to dismiss the claims of abuse or an alternative explination for your statement. If you've got one I'm all ears.
Cindy you cannot continue to make statements stating such things as:
Do you think this can happen over and over again and not make the headline news? Fox news would love to feature this stuff, any news agency would (even if it were half true). But it is not, we know that because parents would shut these places down in a heart beat if they even used language they hear here on fornits against them!
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Imagine what would happen if a kid got raped or abused on a Therapeutic boarding school or all places!! Talk about a story and headlines!! They have been operating for decades???.
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After 2 decades there is enough "lack of incidences evidence" to indicate that many of these places are safe. Something would have surfaced, after 20 years, if there was a systemic problem.
In the above statements you waver between declaring the abuse to a rare occurence or never occuring at all.
The above statements are clear examples of you dismissing peoples claims of abuse, again if you have an alternative explination I'm all ears.
I think what we need to establish is where kids can be the safest from being abused. I think TBS?s are a safe place, I think some public schools are less safe.
Again you prove that you have an agenda. You state we need to find the answer to something, only to immediatly turn around and state you that you feel you have the answer. You cannot expect people to be willing to have these conversations with you when you already declare yourself to have such an obvious bias.
I believe some of the numbers are supporting this assertion.
Numbers? What numbers Cindy? We haven't even begun to look at comparing abuse in the public sector versus the PTS. All we've looked at to date has been deaths. Deaths are not quite the same thing as abuse. This only serves as further evidence of your agenda. You're citing numbers that havent even be examined yet.
You may have a different point of view, Bob, It doesn?t make you intrinsically wrong, we are just looking at it from different angles. I could accuse you of not seeing it my way and dismissing the fact that the public school systems are always in the news with stories of teachers raping students and shootings etc. and you dismiss the fact that TBS?s are never in the news
I've yet to dismiss atrocities committed in public school. If you believe I have please provide a link to it and I'll either explain myself or apologize. Until you do so I'm going to go ahead and stand by my comment that I have never done any such thing. Therefore you cannot accuse me (at least justifiable as I can accuse you) of dismissing anything.
Too much time, should have been done in 3 years tops. Look at how quickly it took to get regulation on the food industry.
Why then arent you working along side us to get these places regulated?
Based on some preliminary numbers we are seeing.
What numbers? Where are they and when can we see them, and who once again is this mysterious "we" you keep referring to?
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You chose to have someone else deal with your familiy's problems.
Its called help, DJ, I don?t pretend to have all the answers like you do?..too bad your family will never have the benefit of professional help outside the home if there is ever a need for it
Where do you get this from? Are you saying I would withhold medical care? Why would you make a statement like this? I just wouldn't do what you did. I wouldn't put my kid in a residential facility for no quantifiable reason. That's what you did. I just said I disagreed with it.
Well if you are not going to let anyone else deal with your families problems then how will you get you family the help it needs if a medical problem occured?
For medical problems we go to the doctor? Where do you go?
Remember, your kid has no quantifiable problems. What did you send her away for?
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So, DJ, we established you would seek outside help for your family if they had a problem you couldnt solve.....thats what we did.
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So, DJ, we established you would seek outside help for your family if they had a problem you couldnt solve.....thats what we did.
No, we've established that I would seek outside help for a quantifiable problem that I could not solve. You sent your kid to treatment in the absence of pathology. I wouldn't do that.
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How about if your roof was leaking and you couldnt fix it yourself and your famiy was getting sick from all the moisture and mold, would you let them suffer or seek outside help? or would you wait for them to be diagnosed with something?
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You're dodging the question.
What was wrong with your daughter that you felt you had to send her away?
Very simple question. In all of your subsequent analogies you keep using identifiable problems that can be solved by a specialist.
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How about if your roof was leaking and you couldnt fix it yourself and your famiy was getting sick from all the moisture and mold, would you let them suffer or seek outside help? or would you wait for them to be diagnosed with something?
Leaky roof, mold...They're quantifiable.
"How much water is leaking in?"... "Three gallons per hour."
"How much mold is there?"... "A LOT. It's covering 140 square feet of wall and floor."
These questions have quantifiable answers.
What was the quantifiable reason you sent your kid to a residential treatment center?
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How about if your roof was leaking and you couldnt fix it yourself and your famiy was getting sick from all the moisture and mold, would you let them suffer or seek outside help? or would you wait for them to be diagnosed with something?
Leaky roof, mold...They're quantifiable.
"How much water is leaking in?"... "Three gallons per hour."
"How much mold is there?"... "A LOT. It's covering 140 square feet of wall and floor."
These questions have quantifiable answers.
What was the quantifiable reason you sent your kid to a residential treatment center?
So by not answering directly it sounds like you would seek outside help...that is what I did !! you may chose not to if it happened to your family and that is your choice, DJ
My point !!
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You're still dodging.
What was wrong with your daughter that you felt you needed to ship her off?
Specifically what was the problem?
This isn't that difficult. When you get done either answering the question or dodging it repeatedly I did repond to your last post to me. If you feel like working on those questions they'll be there waiting for you.
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How about if your roof was leaking and you couldnt fix it yourself and your famiy was getting sick from all the moisture and mold, would you let them suffer or seek outside help? or would you wait for them to be diagnosed with something?
Leaky roof, mold...They're quantifiable.
"How much water is leaking in?"... "Three gallons per hour."
"How much mold is there?"... "A LOT. It's covering 140 square feet of wall and floor."
These questions have quantifiable answers.
What was the quantifiable reason you sent your kid to a residential treatment center?
So by not answering directly it sounds like you would seek outside help...that is what I did !! you may chose not to if it happened to your family and that is your choice, DJ
My point !!
Boy, you're pretty dense today, Whooter. Are you high on something that interferes with your ability to read?
What is the quantifiable reason you sent your kid to a residential treatment center? Simple question.
While you're at it though, what must your daughter do for you in order for you to love her?
Never answered that one either...
Again, this is why nobody respects your opinion, Who. You will never answer with a straight answer, you just avoid anything you don't want to answer. At this point you look dumber for avoiding the question than you do for your original statement that you only love your daughter when she meets certain conditions.
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Specifically what was the problem?
This is where you run into the problem with Whooter.
There is nothing specifically wrong with his kid. Just some unquantifiable mumbo-jumbo about how Whooter felt about her.
He's still at the stage where he keeps reporting "she was off-track," but cannot name a single specific about what that means (he has mentioned truancy, but denied this was the precipitant cause of the "placement").
In reality, "off-track" means "makes daddy frustrated."
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Here you go assuming again, DJ,, stick to the facts. That is what got you all riled up to begin with when you got caught assuming
. The real reason DJ is mad is he clams he called George Millers office about a bill and they told him the bill was dead and it was the republicans fault.
I provided links which proved he never made the call and made it all up. The bill is in subcommittee and is being rewritten.
Here take another look:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738)
http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le (http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le)
So we will have to endure his personal attacks until he gets over it, sorry folks.
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Here you go assuming again, DJ,, stick to the facts. That is what got you all riled up to begin with when you got caught assuming
. The real reason DJ is mad is he clams he called George Millers office about a bill and they told him the bill was dead and it was the republicans fault.
I provided links which proved he never made the call and made it all up. The bill is in subcommittee and is being rewritten.
Here take another look:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738)
http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le (http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le)
So we will have to endure his personal attacks until he gets over it, sorry folks.
WTF are you talking about?
I read your links and they say the bill is stalled, as we all know it is already. What does that prove? This is old news. All I said is that when I talked to Rep. Miller's office, they explained the bill was killed in committee, as is evidenced by the fact that it never came up for debate.
I never said you were wrong, nor did you prove anything.
Now... You made a statement earlier that you don't always love your daughter. What does she have to do in order for you to love her?
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You made the statement, so explain it. I don't see the big deal. It's your statement, you said it, you believe it and I only want to know the details.
How is asking you a question about what you said a personal attack? YOU said it, not me.
[/b]What does she have to do in order for you to love her?
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I read your links and they say the bill is stalled, as we all know it is already.
Thank you DJ, now that wasnt too hard was it?
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Well, sounds like an impasse, I was just curious about this:
And I am interested in how DJ feels he can expect his kids to love him unconditionally, even if he ignores them for long periods of time?just curious on who taught him this is a good thing.
But I can let it go, lets get back to the topic and stop wasting space.
DJ doesn't expect unconditional love, as DJ has stated over and over.
Whooter only loves his daughter based on certain conditions and won't explain those conditions.
Whooter keeps misquoting DJ even though DJ dutifully reposts his original statement like this:
Dysfunction Junction wrote:
I don't take anyone else's love for granted, but I do love my own familiy unconditionally and would without hesitation sacrifice my own life for any one of theirs.
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
I don't take anyone else's love for granted
Can you read it now, Whooter?
Now, what must your kid do in order for you to love her?
this sums up the who's nonsense for the day. he keeps misquoting and saying things that nobody else said and he never answers the simple questio nof why he chooses not to love his daughter. it's very sad to think that this poor girl was likely treated in the same manner at home that the who treats people here. i feel bad for her, but not having someone like the who love you probably isn't that bad of a deal anyway.
oh, he did it over here, too? :cry:
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No more replies and the troll dies!
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this is why everyone calls you a troll, who. you've trolled up two very nice threads today trying to bury some very stupid things you've said because you were quaoted and now can't go back and edit your posts like you usually do when you're caught lying. rather than deal with issues head-on or explain yourself you just troll. can't you keep it in your own thread? or just answer the question? what's your problem?
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Cindy is it your habit in your day to day life as well as on here to declare personal victories where none exists?
You claimed to have proven that DJ never spoke with Rep Miller's office.
You did no such thing, you just babbeled on and on about the bill stalling because "not everyone was involved in the discussion."
Something you cannot prove anymore than you can disprove DJ's claim to have spoken with Miller's office.
Try sticking to the facts, the conversation will go much smoother I promise.
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So I guess I have been the only one posting? The one lesson I keep learning over and over again:
If you catch DJ in a lie, prove him wrong or disagree with him you are in for a very long day of personal attacks as he throws his fit....I know it is coming but I cant just let the lies sit....sorry everyone had to endure this... and for the wasted space.
Hopefully we will be back on topic soon.
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what lies? your exact statement was quoted saying you don't believe in unconditional love and then you were asked a simple question. what conditions do you place on your child in order to receive your love. it has nothing to do with anyone but you. you said it. it was quoted. now you want to say that it's a lie? you said it. you lied?
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at least you were quoted accurately. you have to own the statement. you did go on and lie about what dj said at least 20 times and he reposted his quote every time proving you were lying. and now you're lying about it again? why? can you quote where dj lied to you? he quoted many times where you lied, but i read the entire exchange and he never said what you're saying he said. he said the opposite of what you said, then you lied about it. do you ever tell the truth, who? do you really think that nobody will go back and see how you're lying about this today? i did. and you are definitely lying.
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what lies? your exact statement was quoted saying you don't believe in unconditional love and then you were asked a simple question. what conditions do you place on your child in order to receive your love. it has nothing to do with anyone but you. you said it. it was quoted. now you want to say that it's a lie? you said it. you lied?
he clams he called George Millers office about a bill and they told him the bill was dead and it was the republicans fault.
I provided links which proved he never made the call and made it all up. The bill is in subcommittee and is being rewritten.
Here take another look:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-1738)
http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le (http://tinyurl.com/3ah7le)
So we will have to endure his personal attacks until he gets over it, sorry folks.
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Of course local resources can't help a kid that has nothing wrong with them. Adolescence is not a pathology to be treated.
Ah?full circle...so back to the ?turn a deaf ear and it will go away?. The ?Do nothing mentality?. Well there are many families that disagree with you and many more that have healthy kids who are back on track because of these programs. Maybe you wouldn?t care enough to get your kids help if they were in crisis or maybe you would gamble and close your eyes and hope for the best.
But there are many parents who care very much and need to do all they can for their children and wont trust their child?s future to chance.
What was your daughter "treated" for? As I recall, truancy.
No, it was more than just not going to school. That was just part of it. She was struggling in many areas and we worked with local therapists to help her get back on track, to no avail. If TBS?s did not exist, I am not sure what path we would have taken or options that would have helped.
Yeah, well, there are a couple of ways to spin that too. I think the LSWs and licensed psrinks have all the good intentions in the world when they recomend family counseling. However, if the organization to which the family turns for help is one of these cultish ones, that just means everybody joins the cult or leaves the family. Remember what Maia said about the Bacons?
I was thinking more of a family therapist who could help with conflict resolution, locally. A trained therapist, mom, dad and child in one room. My daughter was being treated but the rest of us were not. I think, again in hindsight, I would have tried this prior to ASR.
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would you love her if she took all the blame for your problems? is that one of the conditions?
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he clams he called George Millers office about a bill and they told him the bill was dead and it was the republicans fault.
I provided links which proved he never made the call and made it all up. The bill is in subcommittee and is being rewritten.
You have no way of knowing this. The original discussion seemed to be more about why the bill had failed, not where it was now. You claimed it was because "not everyone was involved in the discussion" a point you cannot prove. DJ claimed it was because the republicans never allowed it to come to the floor.
You cannot prove he never spoke to them, why waste your time trying otherwise? In the same sense why bother trying to convince others on here he is a liar when he has far more credibility with parents then youll ever have, and since youve been caught in literally dozens of lies yourself.
So we will have to endure his personal attacks until he gets over it, sorry folks.
Come down off the cross, he's not attacking you. He's trying to get you to back up your own comments, something youre too afraid and cowardly to do.
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No, no one is attacking me. Let it go and lets move on...this has gone on way to long...its not fair to other people trying to follow the original conversation.
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You were the one to muck it up with your incessant trolling to begin with.
I don't understand why you would make a outlandish comment and then refuse to explain yourself or back it up, and then get upset and claim youre being attacked when people ask you about it.
How much sense does this make to you Cindy.
You think about that, in the mean time here is my last post to you before you started rambling on about nothing trying to hide your own nonsense by covering it with more nonsense.
Quote:
Hmmm. Not sure I said that. You keep wanting me to say I dismiss abuse when I don?t.
Sure you do. I don't need you to say it because its already obvious. What I'm looking for from you at this point is either a justification for why you continue to dismiss the claims of abuse or an alternative explination for your statement. If you've got one I'm all ears.
Cindy you cannot continue to make statements stating such things as:
Quote:
Do you think this can happen over and over again and not make the headline news? Fox news would love to feature this stuff, any news agency would (even if it were half true). But it is not, we know that because parents would shut these places down in a heart beat if they even used language they hear here on fornits against them!
Quote:
Imagine what would happen if a kid got raped or abused on a Therapeutic boarding school or all places!! Talk about a story and headlines!! They have been operating for decades???.
Quote:
After 2 decades there is enough "lack of incidences evidence" to indicate that many of these places are safe. Something would have surfaced, after 20 years, if there was a systemic problem.
In the above statements you waver between declaring the abuse to a rare occurence or never occuring at all.
The above statements are clear examples of you dismissing peoples claims of abuse, again if you have an alternative explination I'm all ears.
Quote:
I think what we need to establish is where kids can be the safest from being abused. I think TBS?s are a safe place, I think some public schools are less safe.
Again you prove that you have an agenda. You state we need to find the answer to something, only to immediatly turn around and state you that you feel you have the answer. You cannot expect people to be willing to have these conversations with you when you already declare yourself to have such an obvious bias.
Quote:
I believe some of the numbers are supporting this assertion.
Numbers? What numbers Cindy? We haven't even begun to look at comparing abuse in the public sector versus the PTS. All we've looked at to date has been deaths. Deaths are not quite the same thing as abuse. This only serves as further evidence of your agenda. You're citing numbers that havent even be examined yet.
Quote:
You may have a different point of view, Bob, It doesn?t make you intrinsically wrong, we are just looking at it from different angles. I could accuse you of not seeing it my way and dismissing the fact that the public school systems are always in the news with stories of teachers raping students and shootings etc. and you dismiss the fact that TBS?s are never in the news
I've yet to dismiss atrocities committed in public school. If you believe I have please provide a link to it and I'll either explain myself or apologize. Until you do so I'm going to go ahead and stand by my comment that I have never done any such thing. Therefore you cannot accuse me (at least justifiable as I can accuse you) of dismissing anything.
Quote:
Too much time, should have been done in 3 years tops. Look at how quickly it took to get regulation on the food industry.
Why then arent you working along side us to get these places regulated?
Quote:
Based on some preliminary numbers we are seeing.
What numbers? Where are they and when can we see them, and who once again is this mysterious "we" you keep referring to?
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Okay, lets look at the post that has DJ and Bob, so upset. This was a post I made in response to Psy as he mentioned
Psy wrote:
?There are certain things that can completely sever the ties of love between parent and child. There is no such thing as "unconditional". Fool yourself all you wish, but if I were you, I would at least ask those questions you are afraid to, and beg for the forgiveness that you do not deserve.
I responded:
That is pretty intense and it is a good point,psy. Parents should keep a thumb on the pulse of their child and listen to how they are doing. If they sound distressed when they call you should ask to have another conference with them to insure that they are okay. I remember on a particular occasion, after my daughter ran away , that she sounded distressed and we scheduled another call back about an hour later and we talked it thru and spoke for about 45 minutes. She was struggling with a balance between her school work and what they expected to do during her off time which didn?t allow for her studies. She wasn?t use to working that hard. My daughter doesn?t thank me for sending her there but she understands that it was good for her (she wouldn?t want to do it over again, though).
I am not a big believer in ?unconditional love?. I think the bond between a parent and child is built upon a foundation started from infancy and is solidified over time from years of trust and formed from the natural dependency, nurturing and love that occurs and that the home is a safe place to grow, spread your wings, make mistakes, fall and start over. The home should never be a place to be embarrassed or feel ashamed it should be a place to practice life without being judged. If this process is interrupted or threatened the parent is the one who needs to step in and right its course.
If I asked my daughter tomorrow where she would rather be if there was trouble in her life I know she would chose home, because that is where her family is and that is where she feels safe. This is the place she comes to when she needs to sort out answers or scream at someone or ask for advice or feel safe.
Unconditional love, no it isn?t?but we continue to work on it every day and the working at it is what love is and it keeps us together.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... 21f#249509 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249509&sid=fcbda67a7059ad6dda4c26d159b0d21f#249509)
I think many of you know me as one who doesn?t believe in absolutes. I don?t believe all TBS?s are bad and I don?t believe they are all good either. I don?t believe anything is unconditional (sorry, just my nature). I think any bond can be broken if it is not cared for, is neglected, abused enough it will fail. I don?t think anyone will love you (unconditionally) ?no matter what? under all circumstances.
Sorry if my beliefs offend others
Hope this calms people down and we can continue, this was dragged into a few threads, so I will post it twice.
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Dragged by you. If you want to move on please do so. Youve shown youre too ashamed of your own position to own it or back it up. It's fine we all understand it, now move on.
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TheWho said:
I provided links which proved he never made the call and made it all up.
Link to what? His phone bill?
What you think is "proof" in your twisted little head is nothing, but when you're given real hard evidence, like kids DYING, you dismiss it as "not enough evidence."
What are you, like 5 years old? What a moron.
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What are you, like 5 years old? What a moron.
No insulting the kids.
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TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 21:50 Post subject:
Guest wrote: Quote:
This is absurd. In what public or private school are the kids forbidden to speak to family for months on end? Name one.
This wasn?t stated by me.
Quote:
Uh, sounds good on paper, but when there's no mechanism to report abuse, the kid is shit out of luck. Also, the parents are manipulated so heavily by the program that if there kid complains to them, they are not believed. Often kids will not risk angering their parent or the program out of fear that they will be kept longer.
Your excuses just don't cut the mustard, Who.
Most kids don?t rely on protocol in the public school system to report abuse. They tell their parents and the folks take it from there. I am sure some schools exist which try to manipulate the parents because there are all types, but they are probably few and far between.
I looked back over the past several pages and I don?t see where I was making any excuses.
--------------------------------------------
RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2539
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 22:47 Post subject:
Quote:
Guest wrote: Quote:
This is absurd. In what public or private school are the kids forbidden to speak to family for months on end? Name one.
This wasn?t stated by me.
No, but you justified it by stating that most places (according to you) restrict communication for kids, so it really isn't that big of a deal.
See:
Quote:
My point is there are varying degrees of restriction. Your child can not speak to you during school hours in many schools, except during lunch. When I went to school you couldn?t use the phone unless you went to the principal?s office and used his phone. Many summer camps restrict the use of phones, kids would go on outward bound trips for months and only communicate a few times back home.
Quote:
Most kids don?t rely on protocol in the public school system to report abuse. They tell their parents and the folks take it from there. I am sure some schools exist which try to manipulate the parents because there are all types, but they are probably few and far between.
Kids in public school arent censored or monitored in their communications. If a kid calls home and says "my teacher hit me" the principal isnt going to hang up the phone and then send the kid out into the woods for three weeks in order to prevent him from telling his parents the truth. TBS's dp this as a matter of principal. Just as often as they refuse to allow kids to send out mail in which they claim to be abused, again public schools do not do this.
As for this:
Quote:
I am sure some schools exist which try to manipulate the parents because there are all types, but they are probably few and far between
Do you have an actual basis for this claim or are you just hoping this is the case?
Quote:
I looked back over the past several pages and I don?t see where I was making any excuses.
Then you aren't paying close enough attention. Here, this took all of about 14 seconds of back reading:
Quote:
Deborah wrote:
"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1992/4/visit01.html)
They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".
I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......
If that isnt an excuse what would you prefer to call it?
-------------------------------------------------
RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2537
Posted: 09 Mar 2007 00:36 Post subject:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Of course Cindy, when you think youre right it's all bold letters and laughter, after youve made an total fool of yourself it's "mucking it up".
Whatever you say Cindy.
-----------------------------------------
TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 23:02 Post subject:
Bob, you should stick to something you know something about!!
Quote:
Kids in public school arent censored or monitored in their communications. If a kid calls home and says "my teacher hit me" the principal isnt going to hang up the phone and then send the kid out into the woods for three weeks in order to prevent him from telling his parents the truth. TBS's dp this as a matter of principal. Just as often as they refuse to allow kids to send out mail in which they claim to be abused, again public schools do not do this.
A kid can call home anytime from ASR and say what they want or they can just walk off campus?.you have no idea what you are talking about, I know this first hand? how many times have you been to ASR? Hmmmm?. Thought so.
Quote:
Then you aren't paying close enough attention. Here, this took all of about 14 seconds of back reading:
Quote:
Deborah wrote:
"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1992/4/visit01.html)
They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".
I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......
If that isnt an excuse what would you prefer to call it?
Ha,Ha,?. Wrong again Bob !!! You failed to notice that I didn?t write this, I didn?t make any excuses?.this was Deborah?s post?..
------------------------------------
RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2539
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 23:30 Post subject:
Quote:
Bob, you should stick to something you know something about!!
Cindy there's no reason for you to get so upset. Espically for this very reason, how many times last year did I ask what your objective was in discussing HLA, since you knew nothing about it? Knowing absolutly nothing about the subject matter didnt prevent you from pretending to be an expert on the matter. Whatsmore, you won't find a comment from me on here pertaining to a subject I don't have some degree of knowledge on. Sorry Cindy, I limit myself to talking about things I have at least a rudimentary understanding of, a habit you may want to consider picking up sometime. It may save you from having to constantly put your foot in your mouth.
Quote:
A kid can call home anytime from ASR and say what they want or they can just walk off campus?.you have no idea what you are talking about, I know this first hand? how many times have you been to ASR? Hmmmm?. Thought so.
Cindy neither my comment nor the one I was responding to was referring exclusivily to ASR. If you'll calm down and look closely you'll see I didn't even mention ASR in my comment. I was speaking in overall general terms, I'm not sure how you got confused on that. Slow down, have a drink of water, do your usual relaxation technique involving controlled substances and then get back to me. When you get overly excited you make even less sense then normal.
Quote:
Ha,Ha,?. Wrong again Bob !!! You failed to notice that I didn?t write this, I didn?t make any excuses?.this was Deborah?s post?..
Ummmmm Cindy again you've got to calm down and pay closer attention. Here take a closer look:
Quote: TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2201
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:35 am Post subject:
Deborah wrote:
"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1992/4/visit01.html)
They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".
I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......
Now it's true that the bulk of the comment was written by Deborah, the bottom portion, or the "excuse" as we both agreed to term it, was made by you. I'm glad that you can at least see it for what it was, and I look forward to laughing at you as you pretend you didnt first lie about not having made an excuse but then make a secondary blunder in forgetting what you yourself wrote.
Take it easy on yourself Cindy, from the looks of things youre about to blow a gasket.
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RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2539
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 23:31 Post subject:
TheWho wrote:
Deborah wrote:
"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1992/4/visit01.html)
They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".
I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......
Just wanted to get this in there before Cindy had a chance to edit his latest faux pau.
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TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 23:45 Post subject:
Lets not muck up this thread anymore than it is, I will answer you in the ?thewho?. thread.
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Guest
Posted: 09 Mar 2007 00:38 Post subject:
TheWho wrote:
Bob, you should stick to something you know something about!!
Quote:
Kids in public school arent censored or monitored in their communications. If a kid calls home and says "my teacher hit me" the principal isnt going to hang up the phone and then send the kid out into the woods for three weeks in order to prevent him from telling his parents the truth. TBS's dp this as a matter of principal. Just as often as they refuse to allow kids to send out mail in which they claim to be abused, again public schools do not do this.
A kid can call home anytime from ASR and say what they want or they can just walk off campus?.you have no idea what you are talking about, I know this first hand? how many times have you been to ASR? Hmmmm?. Thought so.
Quote:
Then you aren't paying close enough attention. Here, this took all of about 14 seconds of back reading:
Quote:
Deborah wrote:
"Working here is a dream come true".- Common comment by staff at Aspen Achievment Academy.
This enthusiasm is common to Special Purpose Schools and Programs, and very understandable for several reasons. First: Paperwork, red tape, and regulations are kept to a minimum. This is a refreshing change for those staff who came from hospitals and treatment centers where the need to meet regulations sometimes overshadows the needs of the residents.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1992/4/visit01.html)
They had already had a kid on suicide watch jump off a cliff and a 14 year old girl sodomized by a female "counselor".
I think it should be noted, this was 20 years ago......
If that isnt an excuse what would you prefer to call it?
Ha,Ha,?. Wrong again Bob !!! You failed to notice that I didn?t write this, I didn?t make any excuses?.this was Deborah?s post?..
Oooohh... Baby's ANGRY! Look at all those 's! Baby is very angry! Settle down, Baby. Stop crying because RB proved you wrong again!
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RobertBruce
Prolific contributor
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 2537
Posted: 09 Mar 2007 00:41 Post subject:
Cindy, why are you deleting your previous posts? Are you feeling a touch embarrassed about being made to look a total and complete fool?
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TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2201
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 09 Mar 2007 00:42 Post subject:
okay, If you want to double post: I just think it is a waste:
Quote:
Cindy neither my comment nor the one I was responding to was referring exclusivily to ASR.
Thank you, all I am asking is to stick to what you know. If your experience is with another school like HLA, then state that.
Quote:
Now it's true that the bulk of the comment was written by Deborah, the bottom portion, or the "excuse" as we both agreed to term it, was made by you. I'm glad that you can at least see it for what it was, and I look forward to laughing at you as you pretend you didnt first lie about not having made an excuse but then make a secondary blunder in forgetting what you yourself wrote.
I still don?t see an excuse?. I see a response?my point has always been that these schools evolve over time and what happened 15,20,30 years ago doesn?t always apply today?..I want you to keep current, Bob.
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Thanks, Deborah!! Hopfully we can move this trolling out and over to TheWho thread.
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Again it's trolling only because the position is opposed to your nonsense, anything that falls in line with your programming is a real contribution. You're such a tool Cindy.
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uh oh! baby's getting angry again! baby who is going to throw another tantrum!
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Thanks, Deborah!! Hopfully we can move this trolling out and over to TheWho thread.
TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 21:50 Post subject:
Guest wrote: Quote:
This is absurd. In what public or private school are the kids forbidden to speak to family for months on end? Name one.
Who:
This wasn?t stated by me.
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Unless you have severe brain damage, to the point of not remembering what you said just two posts prior to this denial, then your intention was to start another trolling session.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 921#249341 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249341&sid=13bca793c4fd88fba105928fe2e90921#249341)
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Thanks, Deborah!! Hopfully we can move this trolling out and over to TheWho thread.
TheWho
Quintessential Yuppie Sellout
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2203
Location: Phil Ochs' Journal
Posted: 08 Mar 2007 21:50 Post subject:
Guest wrote: Quote:
This is absurd. In what public or private school are the kids forbidden to speak to family for months on end? Name one.
Who:
This wasn?t stated by me.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Unless you have severe brain damage, to the point of not remembering what you said just two posts prior to this denial, then your intention was to start another trolling session.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 921#249341 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249341&sid=13bca793c4fd88fba105928fe2e90921#249341)
Deborah, I never made the statement that kids in public or private schools were fobbiden to talk to family for months, I would never make a statement like that. I think what you misconstrued is that I said:
? Communication is restricted in varying degrees in all educational settings (Private and public), wilderness and Therapeutic Boarding schools are no exception? ..... Someone ,guest, took that as meaning that all the school have the same requirements...which of course they dont....why do you have to be so harsh? Just ask me what I meant, wouldnt that be easier, to clear up what my thoughts were?
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No, of course you didn't. Not your style. Your MO is to leave it vague enough so the back-and-forth goes on for pages before you clarify or divulge what you really meant.
Were you not attempting to imply that TBS and public schools are not all that different? Comparing the limited contact kids in TBSs have with their parents and the brainwashing they undergo re: "manipulating their parents" with accusations about the program, with kids in public school who see their parents every night and can easily report the day's happenings. They're not even in the same ball park.
Most kids don?t rely on protocol in the public school system to report abuse. They tell their parents and the folks take it from there.
Precisely why programs should not be allowed to sever contact between parent and child, ever, unless it's been proved in court to be detrimental to the child.
I am sure some schools exist which try to manipulate the parents because there are all types, but they are probably few and far between.
Probably few and far between? Please cite any program(s) that doesn't require parents to severely limit contact with their kid because it's 'necessary' for the 'emotional growth'. Any program(s) that don't deny contact with parents as punishment. It's the CEDU way.
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Were you not attempting to imply that TBS and public schools are not all that different?
Would that be unethical? Almost like saying TBS and RTC, Boot Camps are the same?
Comparing the limited contact kids in TBSs have with their parents and the brainwashing they undergo re: "manipulating their parents" with accusations about the program, with kids in public school who see their parents every night and can easily report the day's happenings. They're not even in the same ball park.
Doesn?t sound like any TBS I know. You must be talking about a specific place, not all TBSs.
Probably few and far between? Please cite any program(s) that doesn't require parents to severely limit contact with their kid because it's 'necessary' for the 'emotional growth'. Any program(s) that don't deny contact with parents as punishment. It's the CEDU way.
Name any traditional boarding school that doesn?t limit contact with a child?s family. The shear distance alone should be abusive in your definition, why limit it to writing letters or phone calls?
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Would that be unethical? Almost like saying TBS and RTC, Boot Camps are the same?
They have more in common then a TBS does with a public school. Anyone who'd actually experienced the two (not you) knows that.
Doesn?t sound like any TBS I know. You must be talking about a specific place, not all TBSs.
That you know? Cindy you dont know any TBS's. You bought into the brochures of two programs. One of which is apparently being sued for abusing kids, the other has been operating the entire time without being properly licensed.
Since youre such an expert though why dont you tell us of a single TBS that doesnt censor or monitor communications. A single one Cindy.
Name any traditional boarding school that doesn?t limit contact with a child?s family. The shear distance alone should be abusive in your definition, why limit it to writing letters or phone calls?
Wow youre stupid. It would be laughable if it werent for the fact that kids are being abused because of idiots like you. Explain to us how a traditional boarding school limiting the time or the location in which a kid may call his parents is the same thing as a TBS screening and censoring all incoming and outgoing mail/email as well as having staff members standing by to terminate any phone call in which a kid states anything that might be deemed manipulation and then punishing the child for doing so? How many traditional boarding schools prevent the child from calling his parents for weeks or even months at a time?
Rattle off a few names for us Cindy.
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They have more in common then a TBS does with a public school. Anyone who'd actually experienced the two (not you) knows that.
Well, that?s a good start, Bob. Instead of just being critical, why not share your thoughts a little more. How much more in common?
That you know? Cindy you dont know any TBS's. You bought into the brochures of two programs. One of which is apparently being sued for abusing kids, the other has been operating the entire time without being properly licensed.
You faltered a little, there, Bob. Try providing a few examples yourself?.. this will show the readers you have knowledge on the subject and you can provide some insight to new readers with some school names??.
Wow youre stupid. It would be laughable if it werent for the fact that kids are being abused because of idiots like you. Explain to us how a traditional boarding school limiting the time or the location in which a kid may call his parents is the same thing as a TBS screening and censoring all incoming and outgoing mail/email as well as having staff members standing by to terminate any phone call in which a kid states anything that might be deemed manipulation and then punishing the child for doing so? How many traditional boarding schools prevent the child from calling his parents for weeks or even months at a time?
Rattle off a few names for us Cindy.
Again, thanks for your attempt, but try giving input yourself i.e. provide information, instead of saying anothers is wrong. It will gain you more credibility and you can use the time to explain how much time is too long for having contact with home, which schools that you are personally familiar with limit phone usage and terminate calls.
Without the info, bob, you appear to be just an angry reader with no answers. Come on?try engaging in the dialog a little, share your knowledge, you may learn to like it.
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This coming from the guy who has no credibility.....
Cindy Ill be glad to follow through on all your suggestions provided you can do a single thing for me.
Back up just one of your ridiculus claims. I dont even care which one, I just want see if you can.
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yeah I didnt think you could......oh well. G'Night Cindy!
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TheWho said:
The parents know their own child? if the kid is being raped or abused by half the counselors she can just say ?Look Mom, the counselors are full of crap, they are raping me, come get me tonight or I am going to walk away on my own, you can find me at the local police station or hospital, goodbye?
Which telephone are they supposed to use for this function, Who? THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO REPORT ABUSE OR EVEN TO USE A TELEPHONE AT ALL. This is the part you're missing.
I take it you dont know much about ASR. My daughter called every week, she could tell me then or walk down to the center of town and use the phone at the store.
If they were in wilderness they could call the cops when they get out, it only takes one kid getting raped to shut the place down, even as a minimum for an investigation.
This young man attended ASR after Who's daughter was there. Note the discrepencies.
Here is my testimonial for the website:
My name is Richard Meehan. I attended three different programs starting at 4:15AM on October 23rd, 2003 to April 21st, 2005. I attended ALE (Adirondack Leadership Expeditions), ASR (Academy at Swift River), and DA (Discovery Academy). I was woken up at exactly 4:15AM on Oct 23rd.
I live in New York City and a 7ft tall native American man opens the door to my room and turns on my light. I see my parents standing behind him and another 6ft 3 in guy behind them. At first I thought I was getting robbed. Then he said "Were from Right Direction, we're here to take you..." I would have tried to run but considering i lived on the 5th floor of my building, i decided against going out the window. I immediately realized my situation. The guy told me to get on my clothes, which i did, after he thoroughly searched through them. He took me by the belt loop of my pants downstairs on the elevator. I was still in shock, i did not know what to think or do. My doorman was on the elevator and walked over to the door to open it. The expression on his face was of pure shock. When I saw him I had my teeth grinding kind of like a grin except it was not.
They told me on the way down that they would treat me fine if i did not resist. If i did, they said they had plenty of restraints to put me in and that they had handcuffs and footcuffs that they would use if "necessary". I felt trapped, there was nothing i could do. I did not consent to this.
After a five or six hour drive we arrived in the Adirondack mountains. I remember being taken out of the car and up to the room where the director of the program was. About eight staff members were standing around me in the room and they asked me a bunch of questions about how i felt. I didn't't't feel particularly good at the moment and then the drove me out to a forest. It was snowing out and the temperature was -10. They told me to take off my clothes so I could get into gear. I was outside without clothing for i guess about five minutes and then I was blindfolded and guided through the woods where the staff gave me my course book. I spent my first three nights with two staff before i went to my actual group. When i met the group i was with a bunch of kids in the same situation. During my entire stay in wilderness it was freezing outside. There were some nights it was so cold they had to let us use tents they use on the base camp of Mount Everest. There was one day I remember it was so cold i could not move my fingers. After 41 days, I left the program and was driven by my parents to ASR.
ASR had a division of it that you went through in the beginning that was part wilderness. This one was not as bad since they had recently revised it so that we could sleep indoors. However, unlike my last wilderness, this one was more like a bootcamp. Instead of hiking and what not we did PT, Physical training. PT consisted of push-ups, crunches, etc. Whenever you got a consequence there it was in the form of PT. AKA if you were not in arms reach of your nalgene* you would have to do a certain amount of push ups and crunches. After a brief 29 days there, i made it to the main campus.
ASR's main campus was the worst place ive ever been. I hated every second i was there. We had group therapy three days a week for four hours each session. Group consisted of two or three staff, or our "therapists", who were not qualified to do therapy in a room with your Peer Group. The session consisted of staff getting you to talk about your biggest issues. If something bad had happened in your life they wanted you to say it. Then once you did they would use it against you, whether it was to make you feel guilty, to use that issue to make you turn against other kids, or whatever set of circumstances they could manipulate it into there favor.
At ASR, there was no information from the outside world, if you were not receiving any consequences which are in the form of Challenges or Self Studies, you could watch TV for about an hour on sunday. Your mail was open and read before given to you, all your 15 minute phone calls were monitored, and there was no contact with anyone other than your parents. If you started talking something that happened in the school to your parents that the staff didnt like, the staff monitoring the call would try to take the phone from you and say to them you were manipulating or try to disconnect the phone from the wall.
On August 2nd, I left ASR and my parents flew me out to Provo, Utah where I attended Discovery Academy. This school was pretty much more of the same. Only one therapist had credentials that i know of and the therapy was pretty much non-existant. You could not talk to any of the girls there except for one hour a day during the week in a supervised activity. The staff there were nice guys when they liked you but if they didn't they could make your life horrible. I never experienced that since i was good with them but other kids had problems. If there was ever an incident that occurred in either of these places it was downplayed by the staff. If you told your parents about it they said it was untrue.
Essentially, these programs are all corrupt. All they want is money and will figure out and say anything to get the parents to keep the kids there a little longer.
*A nalgene is a canteen that we were given to drink out of. In ALE we were given old military canteens, which with the extreme cold were impossible to drink out of due to the cold. Basically, when i was with the staff we hiked around for no reason. We were actually shadowing the main group but the director convinced my parents to put me with the staff for a few days so i can adjust. In reality it was to make me lose 3 days of progress i could have had to graduate. They didn't treat me badly. They asked me questions like why was i there, did i ever have wilderness-like experience. They tried to teach me how to do basic things like set up my tarp and properly pack my bag within the allotted time limit, although i do not remember how long they gave us to pack or set-up camp. Yes, other kids did suffer from hypothermia and im pretty sure people got frostbite, although not sure about that one. Actually, in ASR Base Camp (wilderness portion), there was a girl with poor blood circulation. I remember how her hands would turn blue during PT but the staff did not care.
ALE was located in the Adirondack Mountains of Upstate NY. ASR was located in Cummington, MA, and DA was located in Provo, UT.
http://www.teenliberty.org:80/Voices.htm (http://www.teenliberty.org:80/Voices.htm)
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3 schools in less than a year. I am sure this kid had some major issues and needed to be monitored much more closely than most. Not your average student experience.
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Notice he didnt mention anything about why he was getting kicked out of these places, I am sure he must have been joined at the hip with his own personal staff.
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3 schools in less than a year. I am sure this kid had some major issues and needed to be monitored much more closely than most. Not your average student experience.
I doubt it, these Aspen/CEDU schools love to shuffle kids around to other programs. Wilderness>>>TBS>>> back to wilderness or another tbs, it never ends for these people until the kid turns 18 or runs out of money.
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3 schools in less than a year. I am sure this kid had some major issues and needed to be monitored much more closely than most. Not your average student experience.
What the fuck is wrong with you?