Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Aspen Education Group => Topic started by: NIGEL on August 31, 2009, 02:42:03 PM
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Hi,
I am new to this board. I enrolled my son at Aspen Ranch two months ago. We visited him for the first time last weekend. We sent him there because we felt we had tried everything and he was heading downhill fast. He is severly depressed, taking drugs (pot and lsd), gave up on school, suicidal, running away. We felt we had to do something or we were going to lose him.
On our visit last weekend, our son claims he has a new perspective on life and he wants us to take him out of "the ranch." (I'm sure most/if not all kids tell their parents the same thing). He told us some stories about other kids and was trying to shock us.
His therapists claim that he is making improvements in his efforts in school and also his relationships with his peers (our son says this is true), but that he still wants to come home. I am inclined to keep him there, but my wife is truly hurting and wants to bring him home.
Any advice from parents and/or former students would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advane.
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I'll write a little more later. But basically what you are seeing is your son has realized that he cannot manipulate any of the staff or teachers there like he did at home and is realizing how good he had it at home. But if you brought him home he would go right back to his old ways. He is in a very safe and structured enviornment. I would listen to his therapist and get a read on how your son is doing thru him/her.
I would expect for you to get very negative feedback here on fornits for placing your son in a program. But hang in there and dont take the negative posts to heart. There will be some good advice if you read enough here.
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He told us some stories about other kids and was trying to shock us.
He may or may not having been trying to shock you but, chances are, those stories were true.
Btw, pot and LSD are hardly in keeping with the brain re-wiring your son is probably going through right now. Personally, I'd recommend that you bring him home.
Here is another thread of possible interest from a few years ago; similar situation, similar title even. The OP of this thread had sent her son to Aspen Ranch ... and brought him right back home soon enough. At the end of it all, she did not have a very high opinion of what transpires at Aspen Ranch.
My son is currently at Aspen Ranch
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=12902 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=12902)[/list]
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@NIGEL: What, specifically, were the allegations your son made? Those things might have been said to encourage you to take him home but they might also be true. Why not relate them here so some of us who have been in bad programs can comment on the probability they might be true.
Are you aware, for example, of the story of Aaron Bacon?
http://www.nospank.net/bacon.htm (http://www.nospank.net/bacon.htm)
Are you willing to take the risk that your son is telling the truth? Are you willing to take the risk of him being scarred emotionally for life or even killed? My advice is that if you hear reports of any crimes such as abuse from your son you relay it to the police. If your son is lying, he'll suffer the consequences from lying to the authorities. If he's telling the truth, you may have helped to save his life and the life of others. Allegations of abuse, if that's what he is relaying, are not something that should ever be ignored.
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Aspen Ranch has a substantial financial interest in keeping your son there, and in encouraging you to place no credibility in his reports, or the reports of others.
Casting your child as a “liar and manipulator” drives a wedge in the parent-child relationship
Be very cautious about adopting the position that your son is lying to you--especially the notion that "these kids will say anything to get out of here." This is your own son, your own flesh and blood, a child who has placed his trust in you, as his parent, since he was born. Forgive me for being direct, but at present he sees that you have betrayed him. I expect the school instructed you to transport him to the school under a pretense, such as "we're going on a family vacation," or “we’re going to tour a boarding school,” or they may have instructed you to use an escort service, in which case he was physically forced to accompany strangers to the school. While he may someday comply with the requirements of the school, he will not forget the betrayal. You may only have a short time to recover this boy's trust in you before it is gone for good. Remove him from the program as soon as possible, and there is a chance you can rebuild the relationship.
The “troubled teen” industry is a profit-driven enterprise with no motivation to reunite you with your son
I am guessing you got to a point with raising your boy when you just felt you had nowhere to turn. Perhaps you questioned your abilities as a parent, or feared that you could not be successful in protecting him from danger. You may have longed for the silence and relief of a household free of fighting and conflict. Guess what? Those are absolutely normal feelings for a parent. They are so commonplace, in fact, that the "troubled teen" industry has made a fortune responding to the fears and worries of parents like you. This is a virtually unregulated multi-billion dollar industry. Aspen's parent company, Bain Capital, is an investment conglomerate. The wilderness and ranch programs are “feeder” programs for the emotional growth and behavior modification boarding schools. Mark my words: In a few months your son will be diagnosed with a behavioral problem that Aspen will tell you requires that he be enrolled in a boarding school. They will be paid a substantial finder’s fee for referring you.
You need not take my word for any of this. The accounts of survivors provide detailed accounts of the experiences of actual former students. Even if some families report good outcomes, the documented reports of widespread abuse, maltreatment and death in programs--including Aspen programs--should cause any parent to choose the wiser path and remove their child from a system known to pose a danger to children.
See the reports on the forensic investigations conducted by the United States Government Acccountability Office, and the testimony of parents before the US House of Representatives.
Reports:
Report 1: http://http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/101007GregoryKutzTestimony.pdf
Report 2: http://http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2008-04-24-GregKutz.pdf
Report 3: http://http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2008-04-24-KayBrown.pdf
Parent Testimony:
Parent testimony 1: http://http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/101007CynthiaHarveyTestimony.pdf
Parent testimony 2: http://http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/101007BobBaconTestimony.pdf
Parent testimony 3: http://http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/101007PaulLewisTestimony.pdf
Auntie Em
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I just recently left Aspen Ranch (during the July parent week), graduating as a Rider. I was there for over 16 months! The substance abuse counselor was my primary therapist! I had a lot of problems going there, personal as well as a fucked up family. I've now ben home for 3 months and am doing great. I haven't relapsed or really even considered it.
Aspen was a great place! We didn't get pizza from the local place once a week, but we did get it on parent week and for special occasions. The food wasn't great but it was certainly bearable (and I'm picky!). The staff was AWESOME (most anyways), they were very caring and devoted. There have been MANY changes in staff and rules in the past 6 months there as well, so check it out! Sure I had my rough times, everyone does! I would defenitely recommend it if you're kids having a rough time, but be sure to check it out before to see if you think your kid would be a good fit.
And to whoever posted about seeing kids doing pull-ups with a man with a radio....he was the personal trainer! I was in Personal Training for over a year there and it helped a lot! I've never heard a complaint about PT, kids can sign up for an extra fee through a past navy seal who really pushes you hard! And there's a LONG waiting list.
Thanks, and please no one tell me I'm lying....when I left I was 2nd in seniority out of everyone there at the time! And to those parents who have kids there now...I wouldn't doubt if I knew them!
original post (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=223240&sid=d566d0e88f73be3146ad94c937a34861&sid=d566d0e88f73be3146ad94c937a34861#p223240)
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the important thing is the place has...without a single doubt...saved our daughter's life. TO sum up some of the other things: She's graduating from high school a year EARLY, and home-district had her do testing (plus she had a great SAT score) so it's no fluke, and she gets a DUAL diploma from Utah and our home state. She's happy, healthy - recently had another home visit that was totally without issues. She has direction in her life, and although she will have on going therapy for some time due to the trauma that triggered her particular problems, she understands it and is dealing with it from a healthy perspective.
A side benefit is she already has a part-time job (while she goes to college) working for a horse trainer...which is good, because the downside (if you can call it that) is she/we are in the process of buying a horse! But, since she's no looking into equine-related veterinary medicine, that's really a benefit.
I'm truly sorry a lot of you just do not understand the program, but it seems you're just going off the slanted "Brat Camp" stories, and piling on based on crap posted by people with NO facts, who've never been there, and have never spoken to a student or parent who has.
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We were at Parent Week a couple weeks ago - our daughter was MUCH better, a lot of her old-self coming back. She was excitied that she was close to earning her saddle (certain horsemanship classes have to be completed before you get off barebak riding), has pretty much adopted her "own" horse, and is thriving. The only negative things I can comment on are a lot of hazing of new kids - but again, this is usual stuff at any "boarding" school, whether for troubled teens or not - and the staff deals with it appropriately.
We had plenty of time to meet with and ask questions of staff, could wander around and check out anything just about any time, ate with the kids and staff (comments were "hey, you guys are getting the same stuff we get", which was pretty decent. A lot of cafeteria-type food on a more nutritious scale, much recognizable Costco-branded stuff). Pizza one day from a local (THE local...) pizza place, which the kids get once a week.......
YOU CAN FINISH READING THE POST HERE,IF INTERESTED. (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=208439&sid=870b71656587983e78c220b7c568fde0&sid=870b71656587983e78c220b7c568fde0#p208439)
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And since they're anonymous the above posts very well might all have been written by an aspen representative. It's called astroturfing (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing), is very common, and in some cases can be illegal, especially when it misrepresents the product. You might also want to note that there are hundreds if not thousands of posts on this forum giving not-so-great reviews of aspen programs.
See also Sockpuppeteering (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29) (multiple internet personas talking to themselves) and Fraudience (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraudience) (people hired to act as satisfied customers).
If you want a bona-fide review of a program, talk to somebody (preferably more than one) who has been in the program and has been out for a few years and had time to think about it. Many have left their emails on this forum or have registered accounts here. Check out the aspen forum for contact info (use the PM button or the email button) If all you're hearing is "this program saved my life and there is nothing negative there whatsoever", chances are there is a problem and you are being manipulated. Think about it. Even at the best schools and colleges reviews are mixed ("I liked this but this was so so and this I didn't care for very much"). If it sounds like advertising, it probably is. It *does* happen on this forum a lot. Especially in relation to Aspen programs. This is one of the very reasons the GAO did an entire half of their investigation (and report) on misleading/fradulent advertising in this industry.
You can read the report here:
http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-08-713T (http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GAO-08-713T)
Video here:
http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia/edwor ... 042408.wvx (http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia/edwork/fc/fc042408.wvx)
The first GAO report on abuse and death in residential treatment and wilderness can be found here:
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08146t.pdf (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08146t.pdf)
Video here (includes information about a death in an Aspen program if I remember correctly).
http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia/edwor ... 101007.asx (http://edwork.edgeboss.net/wmedia/edwork/fc/fc101007.asx)
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Of course a place can change but a place where orange jumpsuit is the norm and kids placed in the basement so they can break down in not what a depressed kid need. The datasheet (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Aspen_Ranch) we have on this place have testimonies going back to when they founded it. One statement is: Past: Aspen Ranch - illusion of success blog (http://http://illusionofsuccess.blogspot.com/2008/07/past-aspen-ranch.html).
Heal-online can also provide information from people who have been there. (http://http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm)
If you doubt the testimonies you can interview some of the surivors on Facebook (http://http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=34431791565) or Myspace (http://http://groups.myspace.com/arhotties). They are not exactly speaking of the place as life saving.
To the original poster: Listen to your wife.
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Psy, thats a terrible thing to say about those families. Why would you try to dirty their posts because they dont fit with your agenda?
Nigel, I mentioned that you would need to read between the negative propaganda. Your son is going to be fine. Listen to your sons therapist who is trained and licensed and has seen the successes that these other posters were talking about. He is a professional. The people on this forum have unknown back grounds and are mostly ex- employees and kids who never finished the program..... with an axe to grind.
I am a parent who had a child complete the program. It was hard on all of us, but in the end you will emerge on a very healthy path and happy that you hung in there.
Speak to families who have been thru the process, like psy mentioned above (one of the few things we agree on). I would ask for a list of families who had kids that graduated and speak with them about your concerns because they had been thru it. Aspen Ranch should be able to give you a list of families you can speak with.
Think of his future and try to relate it to the struggle he went thru prior to being placed at Aspen and the healthy path he will be placed on after he graduates.
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Hello Nigel and welcome. You sound like me several years ago, You have been through a tough time as a family and now that your son is getting the help he needs you should take some of this time and heal some of the wounds your family has. Your wife is distressed by the decision which normal. You need to step it up and take all the energy that you were spending on your son over the past several months and put it towards yourself and your wife and try to support the decision you made to get help for your son by healing yourselves and other family members if any. Take a deep breath and let the professionals do what they do best.
The best you can do now is to prepare for his return and help lay the ground work for a stable environment and create a solid plan for keeping him on a healthy path once he gets home ie school, college, friends, activities, new rules etc.
Change isn’t easy for your son or for yourselves, just breath and move forward slowly and get some good advice when you feel unsure. Don’t forget about your own needs and those of your wife.
Good luck
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Psy, thats a terrible thing to say about those families. Why would you try to dirty their posts because they dont fit with your agenda?
What agenda? All I care about is truth and those posts don't sound truthful at all if you examine them closely and objectively. I'm not definitively stating it's astroturfing. I'm just stating a likely possibility which is my honest opinion.
Nigel, I mentioned that you would need to read between the negative propaganda.
So anything good, regardless of how implausible, is truth, and anything negative is propaganda? Is that what you're saying. Who has the greater motive to lie here. People who make millions a year on kids, the longer "treatment" the more money, or people who get paid absolutely nothing and are simply trying to educate and warn parents to very real danger. If the danger, fraud, and misrepresentation did not exist, the GAO would not have done those reports and made the findings they did.
Your son is going to be fine. Listen to your sons therapist who is trained and licensed
And I recommend parents ask for license numbers and check them with the appropriate agencies. Often programs claim staff are qualified when they really aren't.
and has seen the successes that these other posters were talking about. He is a professional.
So was the judge who got caught selling kids into programs for cash, and so are educational consultants who do the same thing every day legally and without consequence.
The people on this forum have unknown back grounds and are mostly ex- employees and kids who never finished the program..... with an axe to grind.
The people of this forum are varied. Many are open about their identities and stories. If they have axes to grind, the reasons are usually legitimate. Listen to their stories and you might see why.
I am a parent who had a child complete the program. It was hard on all of us, but in the end you will emerge on a very healthy path and happy that you hung in there.
What program was that? Was it Aspen Ranch?
Speak to families who have been thru the process, like psy mentioned above (one of the few things we agree on). I would ask for a list of families who had kids that graduated and speak with them about your concerns because they had been thru it. Aspen Ranch should be able to give you a list of families you can speak with.
No. That's a dumb thing to do. Programs will only refer you to parents/families that have had good experiences. It's just good business. If you want a true survey you have to seek the people out on their own. Like Oscar suggested above. Try contacting kids who have been in the program through the Facebook and Myspace groups.
Think of his future and try to relate it to the struggle he went thru prior to being placed at Aspen and the healthy path he will be placed on after he graduates.
Right. Think happy thoughts... Nothing bad ever happens at a program and there have never been substantiated case of abuse or death at a program.
You want my prediction? Based on what I've seen, on average the kid comes home, acts fine for a while, and eventually blows up violently when the thought reform wears off. No long lasting changes in people are ever brought about by force or coercion.
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And here Psy is, responding to this "new to the board" parent who somehow has an instant fuckton of replies in a matter of hours. Mmm-hmm. No shenanigans here. Nope, nope.
Looks like Aspen's getting desperate, which can only mean good things :)
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Let me put in my two cents worth:
"AR has saved our daughter's life, and is doing great work for many others. There's no brainwashing, no religious indoctrination at all (in fact, periodically our daughter's therapist offers to take her "team" to church...but only if they WANT to go, and to a fairly casual non-Mormon church.
They have patients/students that range from "troubled teens" with arrest records, kids with drug problems, girls who have become "cutters", kids who have suffered mental breakdowns due to trauma - I have not met one parent (and we go to "parent week" activities quarterly and make other, sometimes unnanounced, visits at other times) who just wanted to lock-up their child - and in most cases the parent/child relationship improves dramatically after the child has been there a few months.
Yes, there are rules; yes, there is security (a kid can't just run off); yes, there can be "level drops", but only for serious rulebreaking.
We also know a couple program "graduates" who we keep in contact with, and the parents have had nothing but praise for AR. There ARE things we think could be improved - in school, science labs are not available except through specialized mail-order kits, or through the local college (40-some miles away). It's worked out OK, but it would be better if they had something set up on-site. The food is pretty "institutional", but it's healthy stuff and they are bringing in more variety. And periodically the team therapist or another staff member will take a group of upper-level kids out to a restaurant as a treat.
You also all completely miss one of the key things about AR - the use of equine assisted psychotherapy. EAP has a well-established background and it is truly amazing how some of these "asphalt and sidewalk" kids develop wonderful relationships with the horses, which parallels well with human relationships. It's fascinating to see how the kids generally pick a horse as "theirs" (they all seem to gravitate to one primary horse) that has the same personality as themselves, and they quickly learn how it is to deal with themselves. The equine staff are our favorite people on the ranch, and a couple I'm sure will be lifelong friends.
The kids who really "get into" the horsemanship aspect are provided with weekend seminars in Salt Lake City or St. George in horse training, specialized care, etc...all at no fee to the parents. Our daughter has a certification now in training, which has already gotten her a 2-week job locally for her summer visit home, and may result in a permanent position while she goes to college.
Yeah, it's a load of brainwashing and mistreatment.
You naysayers are simply fools who have NO idea what you're talking about. A bunch of lemmings, just following the group.
FWIW we also know many local therapists who think highly of AR and also laugh at the negative notions. Several have visited the place as well.
But it's always entertaining discussing these things with people who have no clue. However, if ONE person wakes up and realizes the negative crap is a load of...well, crap...maybe another child can be helped."
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Wow, this thread has been thoroughly trolled by TheWho, who has exactly ZERO experience with AR. He's a mindless troll, people. He also fronts a group specifically created as an Aspen "feeder" business. All "pro" responses are a single industry shill, folks. You're getting suckered, OP.
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If all you're hearing is "this program saved my life and there is nothing negative there whatsoever", chances are there is a problem and you are being manipulated. Think about it. Even at the best schools and colleges reviews are mixed ("I liked this but this was so so and this I didn't care for very much").
Psy, surprisingly I agree with you on this 100% on this. I made almost the exact same statement awhile ago, but when I posted the same observation on the reverse I was slammed for it. Why wouldn’t it work both ways?
Example, If I change the words from your post and replace them with ruined, positive and isn’t does the statement still hold true?:
“If all you're hearing is "this program ruined my life and there is nothing positive there whatsoever", chances are there isnt a problem and you are being manipulated. Think about it. Even at the best schools and colleges reviews are mixed ("I liked this but this was so so and this I didn't care for very much").
If survivors come on to fornits and their stories contain nothing but negative comments (no positive experiences) then we can assume they are not telling the truth. This has always been a red flag with me.
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First of all, thank you to all that have responded. I want to say that I knew I would hear from people that supported the program and those that don't. I am listening to both sides and I appreciate the time you have taken to write back. I realize that there are those that have an axe to grind and they are going to be negative, as well as there are going to be people that answer these posts that have a vested interest in the program. I also know that there are a lot of people that are giving me their honest opinions and are truly trying to help( I am very appreciative of your help).
I came away with the following after our first visit:
Positives: Everyone I met and spoke with (therapists, teachers, staff) were professional and caring (I only base this on how we were treated). We took a tour of the facilities and they were clean. We got to go into the academic classrooms and we saw some art that the students had submitted to The Wayne County Art Show(there are some very talented artists at the ranch). My son was very proud of his submission and he spoke highly of his art teacher. I believe the equine program is a definite positive (my son claimed that he now loves horses). The last two reports we have received from the therapists claim my son is doing much better (my son agrees with this). Our relationship seemed better (albeit for only 4 hours over two days). He claims he doesn't hold any anger toward me or his Mom and he seemed less argumentative.
Negatives (or worries): I am not sure who to turn to to question whether The Aspen Ranch is a good fit for my son. They obviously have a vested interest in keeping him there. There is definitely some hazing amongst the students. My son feels he has zero privacy and that he is in a Jail like atmosphere. My son feels like if he badmouths the program, that he will be held back from graduating to the next level. He feels threatened at times by some of the other kids. He says there is a lot of negative energy around the place.
I am going back for my next visit the first week in October. I talked to my son about putting in his best effort in everything he does and he will eventually reap the benefits. I am obviously going to have to make a decision to either put trust in the ranch and leave him there, or pull him and bring him home. I am talking to many people from many different places, but ultimately, the decision is mine.
I want to state again that I value all of your opinions---please keep them coming.
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1/10
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Positives: Everyone I met and spoke with (therapists, teachers, staff) were professional and caring (I only base this on how we were treated). We took a tour of the facilities and they were clean. We got to go into the academic classrooms and we saw some art that the students had submitted to The Wayne County Art Show(there are some very talented artists at the ranch). My son was very proud of his submission and he spoke highly of his art teacher. I believe the equine program is a definite positive (my son claimed that he now loves horses). The last two reports we have received from the therapists claim my son is doing much better (my son agrees with this).
Could that agreement have something to do with what you mentioned below (that he is afraid he will be held back if he disagrees with the program). Hypothetically, if your son was doing badly, I'm not sure he would feel free expressing it. Then again, if he feels free enough to express some bad things, he might actually be telling the truth. In the program I was in I had some positive experiences. I liked what we called "building trades" where we made furniture and... basically creative stuff. I felt it was a good relief from the nearly unbearable stress of the rest of the program. Despite these positive experiences, overwhelmingly, the program was not good for me at all and I feel like it did a lot of lasting damage. You can read about my experiences under my signature (click the one for Benchmark Young Adult School).
It could also be a desire to convince you that he's "better" in order to come home. Call it a manipulation but he might have very good reasons for wanting that.
Our relationship seemed better (albeit for only 4 hours over two days). He claims he doesn't hold any anger toward me or his Mom and he seemed less argumentative.
Well. That sounds good, but I'm skeptical as to how legitimate equine therapy actually does and how many studies have actually shown it to be effective (or done at all). The only studies I could find were on heart rates and other stuff related to physical therapy. To me it seems more like a marketing gimmick riding on all that "Horse Whisperer" crap. This is the part where I tell you that where some programs aren't abusive, their completely ineffective, relying mostly on "feel good" tactics primarily targeted at winning over parents.
Negatives (or worries): I am not sure who to turn to to question whether The Aspen Ranch is a good fit for my son. They obviously have a vested interest in keeping him there. There is definitely some hazing amongst the students. My son feels he has zero privacy and that he is in a Jail like atmosphere. My son feels like if he badmouths the program, that he will be held back from graduating to the next level. He feels threatened at times by some of the other kids. He says there is a lot of negative energy around the place.
I am going back for my next visit the first week in October. I talked to my son about putting in his best effort in everything he does and he will eventually reap the benefits. I am obviously going to have to make a decision to either put trust in the ranch and leave him there, or pull him and bring him home.
That's basically what it comes down to. My only comment on that would be that you shouldn't have to trust the ranch. If communication with your child is unrestricted and he doesn't feel "held back" by saying anything negative about the program, you can trust that what he says is what is happening. On the other hand, if the program restricts communication and punishes him directly or indirectly for relaying negative experiences, you can't really trust what either he or the program has to say. This is the primary reason I have such a problem with programs who either censor or monitor communication, directly or indirectly (through asking parents what was talked about).
I want to state again that I value all of your opinions---please keep them coming.
You're welcome.
You mentioned he was talked to by a substance abuse counselor. Do you really think that's appropriate considering he was just using pot and LSD? I'm not suggesting you condone it, but I think you might be painting use as abuse in your own mind. You might want to read this article from Stanton Peele on that:
http://www.peele.net/lib/panic.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/panic.html)
As he notes, the problem with labeling a person an "addict" is that they take on the identity and it leads to relapses and habitual use. If you tell a person they can't control themselves and are powerless, they'll become just that. It's a sort of institutionalization of the same sort common to criminals... who take on the identity of "convict" and feel like they can do nothing else. Even worse in many programs kids are pressured or even forced to take on the moniker of "addict" in order to progress in the program. Peele, in the above article, lays out some practical suggestions for dealing with kids using drugs. He recommends against institutionalization.
Some more reading on the disease concept of addiction here:
http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html (http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html)
Even kids who use certain substances on a daily basis are not destined to use it throughout their lives. The vast majority moderate or quit entirely. Addiction is not a progressive and fatal disease. It's simply a pattern of behavior that can be controlled if you teach your kids self control and self discipline.
Several surveys conducted by Kaye Fillmore, of the Institute for Health and Aging (University of California, San Francisco), indicate that drinking problems that appear in college and late adolescence — problems up to and including blackout — rarely persist through middle age.36 Exactly similar data pertain to youthful drug abuse, and all research shows the tendency to use, to use regularly, and to be addicted to drugs drops off after adolescence and early adulthood.37 Apparently, as people mature they find they can achieve more meaningful rewards than those offered by drugs and overdrinking. These rewards are generally the conventional ones of family life and accomplishment at work that dominate adult life for most people, even most of those who had a drinking or drug problem earlier on.
So what it comes down to for you is which is the greater of two risks: leaving him in a program where he may be psychologically scarred, or taking him home and taking the risk that he might turn in to some junkie. I urge you to actually research the likelihood of both. On the one hand there have been studies done on the drug issue. On the other hand, there have been no double blind studies done on programs at all (ask yourself why not). That being said, if you've heard the anecdotal evidence that I've heard from interviewing scores of people from many different programs, it doesn't paint an overall positive picture.
Do your own research. Go to the MySpace and Facebook groups and ask around. Talk to multiple kids and compare what they have to say. If they're all making stuff up their stories won't match, but I'll wager they will.
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Psy, thats a terrible thing to say about those families. Why would you try to dirty their posts because they dont fit with your agenda?
Nigel, I mentioned that you would need to read between the negative propaganda. Your son is going to be fine. Listen to your sons therapist who is trained and licensed and has seen the successes that these other posters were talking about. He is a professional.
But is this therapist trained and licensed?
A meating at the local board which oversee the licensed staff reveal that it is often NOT the case (http://http://www.dopl.utah.gov/licensing/minutes/mft_min_2006-06-02.pdf):
Ms. Taxin explained that Ms. Kucharski contacted the Board Secretary to cancel her in person interview due to the driving distance and requested for the Board to review the application without her being present.
Ms. Taxin stated that Jan Gardner, Licensing Specialist, reviewed the Aspen Ranch website and noted that Ms. Kucharski is listed as a licensed
therapist. Ms. Gardner contacted Ms. Kucharski to have the website corrected.
They could have checked up on the rest of the staff, but they had to consider the risk of loosing jobs and this woman was the only one who was so stupid to apply for a local license so they settled with having her name removed.
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Nigel,
I also know that there are a lot of people that are giving me their honest opinions and are truly trying to help( I am very appreciative of your help).
It is good to see that you are open minded about considering both sides.
I have so much sympathy for the worries and fears of a parent who is trying to help a child. It angers me that programs like the Aspen programs take advantage of parents who desperately wanted to do the right thing.
Please think carefully about the fact that the US Congress and the GAO saw a need to investigate this industry and are in the process of passing federal legislation to regulate them (HR911 passed the House of Representatives in April with bipartisan support and a more than 2/3 majority). As the forensic investigation documented, this is not a few bad apples, but a systemic problem of widespread abuse, maltreatment, neglect and death in residential programs of all stripes.
Please look at this link to the US House of Representatives Committee on Education and Labor, and read the specifics of the "Stop Child Abuse in Residential Programs for Teens Act of 2009." http://http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2009/02/the-stop-child-abuse-in-reside.shtml Watch the video of the hearings and listen to the testimony of parents whose children died in programs. Read the list of organizations that have endorsed the legislation, including:
•American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry »
•American Academy of Pediatrics »
•American Bar Association »
•American Psychological Association »
•Child Welfare League of America »
•Community Alliance for the Ethical Treatment of Youth »
•Easter Seals »
•National Child Abuse Coalition »
•National Disability Rights Network
And lastly, please do what the parents of my niece failed to do: Ask your family and friends for help and support. Ask if your son could live with them for a time to give you a chance to sort things out. My niece went to a 3 month Aspen wilderness program, and sure enough was referred to a boarding school, and the parents shelled out a quarter of a millon dollars over three years when she could have been living with loving caring responsible family members.
Auntie Em
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Nigel, When my child attended 2 of the parents pulled their children after several months and they both reverted back to their old behavior almost immediately, neither went back to school. One became pregnant and moved out and the other moved away a week after getting home. Their children were able to manipulate them into believing they had changed. The remainder of my daughters peer group stayed and graduated and all of them were accepted to the college of their choice after finishing high school, with one finishing 6 months earlier than expected.
My daughter wanted to come home also and now she can look back and knows that it was the best place for her. She never liked being there but it helped her. Try to get as much information as you can. Read here on fornits, contact the school and ask to speak with parents who have had kids complete the program. Speak to your childs therapist with your concerns also. But don’t give up on your son. You may not get a second chance if you pull him out too soon.
Good luck with your research. I know the decision is a hard one.
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Hey Guest21:
How about for shits and giggles you let Psy link your posts together? I'd wager all the guest posts on this thread in support of aspen come from the same person. If I'm wrong I get egg on my face. What have you got to lose?
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AEG does not use official therapists. Most kids I know who have gone there have not received any help. I would pull your child ASAP. I have read the pages of kids that have gone there, and they have all had poor experiences.
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AEG does not use official therapists. Most kids I know who have gone there have not received any help. I would pull your child ASAP. I have read the pages of kids that have gone there, and they have all had poor experiences.
Great post. The SINGLE poster 'who' is in favor of AR is now claiming his daughter went there but for five loooong years claimed she went to another 'school'. Very fishy. This poster, aka 'thewho' runs an Aspen feeder group. Nigel, BEWARE of Aspen.
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@Auntie Em - babe, I think I love you. What a rational, level-headed, measured and reasonable response. Bully for you, love! AEG is not where your kids should be...
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Another teen has died in an Aspen-run program.
@ Nigel, I rest my case. Please heed your wife's doubts. Her gut instinct about this is right. If you are reluctant to share this story with your wife, then your gut should tell you that you, too, know your boy needs to come home now--not in October, not in 2 years.
http://http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/09/portland_teen_collapses_and_di.html
Sergey Blashchishen, 16, died Friday, August 28, 2009. He had been there one day. This is not an isolated incident. We'll wait for the details to emerge, but I expect we will hear the familiar story of events emerge: The teen complains about not feeling well, and is ignored. Then the teen vomits, and is ignored. Then the teen collapes, and the staff on hand is not trained to save the child's life. How many times have we heard this story?
I am so angry. Don't tell me that just because some families have good outcomes in Aspen programs that risking any child's life and well being in these programs is justified.
I note sadly, since this had been one of my recommendations to you, that an attempt had been made to place the boy with an uncle prior to placing him in SageWalk. Please keep this boy and this family in your thoughts.
Auntie Em
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More on SageWalk from the Fornits Wiki
http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Sagewalk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From The Oregonian
Portland teen collapses and dies during wilderness camp hike
by Stephen Beaven, The Oregonian
Tuesday September 01, 2009, 2:44 PM
The Lake County Sheriff's Office is investigating the death of a Portland teen who collapsed during a hike as part of a wilderness camp exercise, a spokesman said today.
Sergey Blashchishen, 16, died Friday after collapsing about 2:30 p.m., said Deputy Chuck Pore. An autopsy was performed on Sunday but the results are incomplete and a cause of death has not been determined, Pore said.
Investigators are trying to find out if Blashchishen, who lived in Northeast Portland, had any medical problems that might have contributed to his death, Pore said. He had passed a physical the day before he died.
Blashchishen was attending the SageWalk wilderness school, a program for troubled teens based in Redmond. He was hiking with a group in northern Lake County between Burns and Bend when he got sick.
"He said he didn't feel good and shortly after that collapsed," Pore said.
The Bureau of Land Management has suspended the permit for SageWalk to operate on BLM land, pending the outcome of the investigation. It could not be confirmed if Blashchishen was on BLM property when he collapsed.
"SageWalk considers student safety our number one priority and takes this incident very seriously," SageWalk Executive Director Mike Bednarz said in a statement.
Lyudmila Blashchishena, Sergey's mother, said she was told that her son vomited and then passed out during the hike, adding that he did not suffer from any medical conditions.
"We are still so shocked," she said. "He always did sports, never had any disease. How could he pass away just from hiking?"
Blashchishen dropped out of Parkrose High School last year, his mother said, and enrolled in the wilderness school on Thursday.
He had worked construction and lived with an uncle before deciding to go to SageWalk.
"He asked me to place him in the boot camp," his mother said. "He really wanted to change his behavior."
--Stephen Beaven; [email protected]
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Guest21 has a point. Talk to a parent. Talk to Lyudmila Blashchishena, who will be burying her son this week.
Auntie Em
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Great post. The SINGLE poster 'who' is in favor of AR is now claiming his daughter went there but for five loooong years claimed she went to another 'school'. Very fishy. This poster, aka 'thewho' runs an Aspen feeder group. Nigel, BEWARE of Aspen.
Yes, but in all fairness to the guest poster, like Aunti Em mentioned, it was an Aspen program and she did turn out well while the ones that were pulled went back to their old ways, got pregnant and moved away. I think Nigel is looking for a little more direction for his son besides what he was getting at home, unless there were local solutions that he did not try, then I could see him brining him home early. But if all the local options have been exhausted then I think this is the right place for him right now to keep him safe and get him moving along a better path with a healthier life style.
Either direction will not be easy. It takes hard work to turn around a persons behavior and habits.
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Thread on the recent Sagewalk death: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28470 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=28470)
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Great post. The SINGLE poster 'who' is in favor of AR is now claiming his daughter went there but for five loooong years claimed she went to another 'school'. Very fishy. This poster, aka 'thewho' runs an Aspen feeder group. Nigel, BEWARE of Aspen.
Yes, but in all fairness to the guest poster, like Aunti Em mentioned, it was an Aspen program and she did turn out well while the ones that were pulled went back to their old ways, got pregnant and moved away.
If we're only talking about the same person (TheWho), his "daughter" was in ASR. He never mentioned any other kids and due to his near fanatical support of aspen, I highly doubt he would remove his other kids if he had any. If the above guests are TheWho as several guests have implied, he would have to be lying, or at the very least trying to pass his one story off as multiple.
Nigel. Face the facts. Kids have been killed in aspen programs and their "lifeSteps" use deplorable techinques. Read about their techinques for yourself as reported by time magazine (Mount Batchelors is an Aspen program using Aspen's LifeSteps):
http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... -3,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1891082-3,00.html)
From the article:
One 18-year-old former student and victim of rape wept while recounting what happened to her during a Lifesteps seminar. Jane, who asked not to be identified by her real name, left the school in March. "They had me dress up as a French maid," she said, describing an outfit that included fishnet stockings and a short skirt. "I had to sit on guys' laps and give them lap dances," while sexually suggestive songs, like "Milkshake" by Kelis, played at high volume.
"They told me I was dirty and I had to put mud on myself for being raped," she said in reference to another Lifesteps session. "They basically blamed me for getting raped."
See. You might find that suspect or absurd but I don't. Why? Because LifeSteps seminars are basically CEDU "propheets" and I saw the *exact* same thing happen at a CEDU clone I was at, down to the french maid outfit (complete with feather duster prop). Everybody had a humiliating part to play in their skits. I have no doubt with Aspen's identical DNA and the testimony that has come forth about their LifeSteps that the same thing continues to this very day. Mark my words, that shit messes with your head for a long time after the program. At first after the LGAT seminar it seems like it's some eye opening experience but eventually perspective sets in and you realize how messed up what went on was... sort of like how a victim of child sexual abuse might not recognize what's wrong at the time, but only later figure out just how wrong it was. Only then does such a person put 2 and 2 together and realize the effects those experiences have had on their life (a person might not realize why they are prone to promiscuity or abusive relationships or so on and so forth until that point).
It's the same with LifeSteps or any CEDU propheet LGAT variant. There is no doubt it causes dramatic change in the short and medium terms. The long term effects is where the damage is at. Does it damage all participants equally? Probably not, and some it might even strangely help in some way (subjectively). That being said, the risk is just too high as far as i'm concerned. I've seen a kid flip out, have a complete break with reality, and have to be dragged out of one of these sorts of seminars. Especially if your kid is sensitive and intelligent, it's not something that will likely be a good experience.
I think Nigel is looking for a little more direction for his son besides what he was getting at home, unless there were local solutions that he did not try, then I could see him brining him home early. But if all the local options have been exhausted then I think this is the right place for him right now to keep him safe and get him moving along a better path with a healthier life style.
Either direction will not be easy. It takes hard work to turn around a persons behavior and habits.
Hard work on whose part? You can't force a person to change. Even AA folk wisdom holds that change has to come from within. That can't be pressured or as soon as the pressure is removed the behavior returns. Long term permanent thought reform is just not possible as Robert Lifton wrote... However the damging effects including but not limited to PTSD can last a lifetime.
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I don’t think that posting a child’s death is going to dissuade a person from getting help for their child. If I posted a child dying in a public school should we expect that people would run to remove them? Should we expect people to decline the assistance of an ambulance because they heard cars can get in accidents and kill people?
Will kids die in programs, public schools, private schools and the local McDonalds? Of course, but the statistics show that kids are overwhelmingly much more safer in a program environment then they are at home or in a public school system. Especially when they exhibit at-risk behavior. The program can offer structure and the safety of oversight from staff on a 24 hour basis.
As far as changing a person I have to disagree with you, Psy, experience says otherwise. You can change a persons habits thru behavior modification. Children who are potty trained don’t just start peeing in their pants once the training stops. They are shown the benefits of having dry pants and eventually the child decides himself/herself that peeing in the potty is a better choice for them. The methods take time but they teach the child a better life style, if this could happen overnight then the programs would only last a month, but time is needed to undue dangerous and destructive habits. Potty training cant be attained in a day either and each child is different and requires their own time to achieve the goal. But very few children grow up to resent their parents for subjecting them to behavior modification which lead to their consistent use of the restroom.
Once the child is placed on a healthy path and matures they will look back and see that the programs was helpful. But since change is hard work the child will not be happy with the change occuring today and cannot foresee the benefits down the road. The fact that the child wants to leave shows that change is occuring. If the child was happy and wanted to stay that would raise a red flag for me and indicate the program isnt very effective or isnt a good match for him.
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Here is an article I came across in fornits Aspen forum which may help.
Aspen Education Group's Therapeutic Programs Featured on 'Dr. Phil'
Friday May 6, 12:14 pm ET
Aspen Ranch and SUWS of the Carolinas Get 'Thumbs Up' From Dr. Phil
CERRITOS, Calif., May 6 /PRNewswire/ -- Aspen Education Group's Aspen Ranch, a Utah-based residential treatment center for teens, and SUWS of the Carolinas, a North Carolina-based outdoor behavioral healthcare program, were featured on a May 5, 2005, segment of the nationally syndicated "Dr. Phil" show. Aspen Education Group is the nation's leading provider of education programs that improve the quality of life for underachieving children, young adults and their families.
The segment followed up on the progress of a student that Dr. Phil referred to Aspen's SUWS of the Carolinas program in December 2004. After a successful experience there, the student chose to continue his learning and growth experience at Aspen Ranch. Dr. Phil featured video clips from both facilities as well as an interview with the student's mother, Jennifer Sinclair of Ontario, Canada.
"For many, many months I saw my son spiraling downward and felt he needed some kind of intervention," said Sinclair. "With the help of Dr. Phil, that intervention happened; and we admitted my son first to a wilderness therapy program called SUWS of the Carolinas, where he was removed from all the bad influences and distractions in his life and participated in individual and group therapy. After 91 days he was sober, reflective and ready to go on to Aspen Ranch for more growth opportunities. SUWS of the Carolinas saved my child's life, and Aspen Ranch is now nurturing his self-confidence as a young man and a leader."
"Dr. Phil has been a tremendous influence on parents and youths and has been particularly instrumental in helping families discover new hope through the life-changing experiences offered by the therapeutic education industry and programs such as Aspen's," said Elliot Sainer, chief executive officer of Aspen Education Group. "We're very pleased that Dr. Phil has featured several Aspen programs over the past year, and believe this is a testament not only to the kind of quality programs Aspen offers, but to the important role our industry plays in saving families and changing lives. The ability to share these kinds of stories on a program that reaches millions of people allows us to bring hope into the lives of many families needing assistance."
Aspen Ranch is a licensed residential treatment center for troubled teens between the ages of 13 and 17 who need an opportunity to make positive changes in their lives and overcome feelings of low self-esteem and anger due to academic underachievement, substance abuse or family conflict. Aspen Ranch is noted for its unique equine therapy program that allows students to learn empathy, improve communication and enhance self-confidence and self-worth through their experience with the animal.
SUWS of the Carolinas is a licensed treatment program for students 11 to 17 years of age who are suffering from low self-esteem, family conflict, substance use, defiance issues, attention deficit disorder, and other emotional and behavioral problems. SUWS of the Carolinas utilizes outdoor experiences and peer interaction in combination with individual and family therapy to help positively change the lives of young people who are experiencing difficulties at home or in school.
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Here's another article found here on fornits that might help.
Teen dies on Redmond wilderness school hike-From KTVZ.COM news sources
http://www.ktvz.com/global/story.asp?s= ... =Printable (http://www.ktvz.com/global/story.asp?s=11030190&ClientType=Printable)
SageWalk Website assures parents of prospective participants that student safety is top concern
Autopsy performed, but cause of death east of Bend not yet revealed
A 16-year-old Portland youth collapsed and died on a hike with Redmond-based SageWalk Wilderness School, about 70 miles southeast of Bend, Lake County authorities said Tuesday.
Lake County Deputy Sheriff Chuck Pore' identified the teen who died Friday afternoon as Sergey Blaschishen, but told NewsChannel 21 he had yet to receive the medical examiner's findings on an autopsy performed Sunday in Lakeview, regarding the cause of death or other details.
Pore' labeled as "procedural" a suspension of the school's (http://www.sagewalk.com (http://www.sagewalk.com)) BLM permit to operate on public lands.
But he confirmed that Blashishen had reported feeling ill and collapsed a short time later.
The teen's mother, Lyudmilla Blashchishena, told The Oregonian she was told her son vomited, then passed out during the hike. She said he did not suffer from any medical conditions.
She said her son dropped out of Parkrose High School last year and had worked construction and lived with an uncle before asking to be palced in the SageWalk program. "He asked me to place him in the boot camp," she told the newspaper. "He really wanted to change his behavior.
Here is the complete news release from the Lake County Sheriff's Office and a statement issued by SageWalk's executive director.
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MEDIA RELEASE
LAKE COUNTY SHERIFF INVESTIGATION 090529
At about 2:30pm on Friday, August 28th, 2009, members of the Lake County Sheriff's Office, the Deschutes County Sheriff's Office, and Law Enforcement of the Bureau of Land Management responded to a report of the death of a juvenile male at a wilderness camp in northern Lake County. According to the initial information given to the Lake County Sheriff's Office, the juvenile was attending the Sage Walk Wilderness Camp. The juvenile had been received at the Sage Walk camp facility the day before, after having passed a sports physical. At the time of the incident, the youth had been participating in a hike which is a part of the behavioral program of the wilderness camp.
The initial report received by the Sheriff's Office was of a sick male, followed by information that CPR was in progress. Air Link air ambulance was requested by Deschutes County Sheriff out of Bend. CPR continued for approximately 45 minutes until the air ambulance arrived. Subsequently, the 16 year old male from Portland was declared dead at the scene.
Due to the remoteness and inaccessibility of the northern part of Lake County, Deschutes County Sheriff responded and secured the scene until Lake County law enforcement arrived.
Deputies interviewed camp counselors and other juveniles that had been on the hike. An autopsy was performed on the youth on Sunday, August 30th.
Pending the results of the Sheriff's investigation, the Bureau of Land Management has suspended the permit for the wilderness camp to operate on BLM Land.
Chuck Poré, Deputy Sheriff
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Statement from SageWalk:
SageWalk Wilderness School is saddened to confirm the unfortunate death of one of our students on Friday, August 28th. At this time, the exact details of the incident are still being determined. We do know that our EMT-trained staff worked tirelessly with the student until the AirLink emergency helicopter arrived on the scene, at which time the student's care was turned over to the AirLink medics. SageWalk considers student safety our number one priority and takes this incident very seriously. Over the course of our 12 year history, our program has adhered to the highest standards of care and we currently meet or exceed all industry and state standards. We were the first wilderness program to be individually accredited by the Northwest Association of Accredited Schools, and we are licensed by the State of Oregon to work with students who are experiencing issues with substance abuse and are also licensed by the State of Oregon as both an Outdoor Youth Program and Private School.
Due to the limited information available, HIPAA regulations, and out of respect for the student's family, this is all we are able to communicate at this time.
CONTACT:
Mike Bednarz, MS, MBA
Executive Director
SageWalk Wilderness School
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The state Legislature passed a new law governing wilderness schools after the September 2000 death of a 15-year-old student with Bend-based Obsidian Trails, which later closed.
William "Eddie" Lee of Scappoose died after an instructor held him face-down on the ground as punishment for an emotional outburst during a hike east of Burns.
Early this year, the Government Accountability Office listed 10 examples of youths who died at wilderness schools, and thousands of reports of abuse, as Congress considered legislation to require federal oversight for outdoor therapy programs.
At that time, a spokeswoman for SageWalk's parent company, Aspen Education Group, told The Bulletin that the bill went too far, and that schools already licensed by states and accredited by reputable groups should be exempt from federal regulations.
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Many kids have been killed by Aspen Ed Group programs. If you want to have the best chance of your kid staying alive and getting help, stay away from any AEG program. They have a legacy of killing children in the name of 'helping' them.
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Many kids have been killed by Aspen Ed Group programs. If you want to have the best chance of your kid staying alive and getting help, stay away from any AEG program. They have a legacy of killing children in the name of 'helping' them.
Typically when statments like this are made without any evidence it is just the opposite. In this particular case I know it to be the opposite. Do you have a link to any statistics that support this? Do you know how many kids kids each year who are attending public school? Kids whose parents could not afford or decided against getting their children help? The number of kids who die in programs is just a small fraction of those killed in public school. This websight would crash if we printed the non-program kids and discussed each of them each time one died.
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Matthew Meyer Lone Star Expeditions
Rocco Magliozzi 12 SUWS
Name Unknown Aspen Achievement Academy Suicide-hanging
Brendan James Blum 14 Youth Care (& Pine Ridge Academy)
Sergey Blashchishena 16 Sagewalk
RIP boys.
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The reason fornits lights up so much when a child die is because it is such a rarity and doesn happen too often. Just to place it in perspective:
One American dies in a hospital from a medical error or a lethal infection every 6 minutes = 90,000 per year
One American killed by a traffic accident every 12 minutes = 43,443 per year
One American accidentally poisoned to death every 27 minutes = 19,457 per year
One American killed in an accident at home every 29 minutes =18,048 per year
One American killed in a fall every 31 minutes = 17,227 per year
One American killed by a drunk driver every 31 minutes = 16,885 per year
One American murdered every 32 minutes = 16,137 per year
One American drowned every 159 minutes = 3,306 per year
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The reason fornits lights up so much when a child die is because it is such a rarity and doesn happen too often. Just to place it in perspective:
You're doing the math wrong.
It's (#ProgramDeathsYearX / #KidsInProgramYearX) compared to (#PublicSchoolDeathsYearX / #KidsInPublicSchoolYearX). I'd wager the likelyhood of death in a program is a lot higher than the likelihood of death in a public school or elsewhere. Sadly, there are NO statistics on this so my guess is as good as anybody else's. Kids DO die in programs, however, and what's really shocking isn't so much the fact that they died, but how they died and how their last days were spent (often with bruises all over their bodies, scars, untreated sores, etc...).
Even still the whole death debate misses the point that the kids who survive generally end up pretty messed up. Just ask around the MySpace or Facebook pages for any particular program.
Again. Any parent considering an apsen program should check out the Time Magazine Article on Mount Bachelors describing aspen's LifeSteps (http://http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1891082-3,00.html) and decide whether they think that's really healthy for their child.
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No child deserves to be abused before they are murdered, and all seem to be abused from what I am reading, and then they lose their life, murdered. I pray all come out of the wood works and let the world know what kind of sick bastards are ruining their children s lives. No child should die in those places. Not a one.
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Hi again,
As I'm sure you know, I am not an expert on this subect, but since I started the topic, I thought I would let you know how my son is doing. Last report from his therapist (yesterday) is that he is doing even better with both his academics and his relationships(my son agrees with this assessment). When I talked with him, he wanted to make sure I knew that he was putting forth his best effort. When he was at home, he basically had given up on everything, including the hobbies (guitar and art) that he loved. My faults as a parent were that I would always get on him for all that he did wrong, and I didn't find the time to tell him that I was proud of him and that I loved him. I am doing my best to make sure he knows that I see him working on things and that I am very proud of him.
I would say that I am somewhat happy with The Aspen Ranch right now, but I promise that I am keeping my eyes and ears open. My son is very open with me and I know he will tell me if there is any abuse going on. He hasn't complained so much about the adults, but has about the kids. The school itself is a little too rigid and structured for my tastes, but that is probably what most of these kids need. I write him every night (he writes me about once a week), and I call him every week. My next visit is in early October. I will keep reporting on my thoughts if people are interested.
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Do you know if Aspen Ranch uses Aspen's LifeSteps?
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Hi again,
As I'm sure you know, I am not an expert on this subect, but since I started the topic, I thought I would let you know how my son is doing. Last report from his therapist (yesterday) is that he is doing even better with both his academics and his relationships(my son agrees with this assessment). When I talked with him, he wanted to make sure I knew that he was putting forth his best effort. When he was at home, he basically had given up on everything, including the hobbies (guitar and art) that he loved. My faults as a parent were that I would always get on him for all that he did wrong, and I didn't find the time to tell him that I was proud of him and that I loved him. I am doing my best to make sure he knows that I see him working on things and that I am very proud of him.
I would say that I am somewhat happy with The Aspen Ranch right now, but I promise that I am keeping my eyes and ears open. My son is very open with me and I know he will tell me if there is any abuse going on. He hasn't complained so much about the adults, but has about the kids. The school itself is a little too rigid and structured for my tastes, but that is probably what most of these kids need. I write him every night (he writes me about once a week), and I call him every week. My next visit is in early October. I will keep reporting on my thoughts if people are interested.
Thank you Nigel, your reports back can help other parents who are in the research phase and trying to decide if placement is a good idea for their son/daughter.
The structure of the program is what makes it successful. The kids eventually feel very safe knowing what to expect each day and the ever-present consistency. They stop wasting time trying to test the rules and instead start focusing on their studies and themselves. It can be a long process so be patient.
Don’t beat yourself up too much looking back on how you interacted with your son before he was placed. I went thru the same thing when my daughter went. It’s a good opportunity to step back and look at what worked and what didn’t so that you can make the proper changes for when your son comes home. He is making changes in his life so changes should be made at home also. He will appreciate you speaking openly to him and sharing how you feel.
I look forward to you updates.
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I have not heard my son describe anything that sounds like "lifesteps" and the parent brochure they gave us didn't mention it. I have asked my son what they do in their group therapy sessions (he also has individual sessions) and he said that they mainly talk (and argue) about something that the team either did that day or wants to do. The team (a group of 12 kids) have activities (ropes course, chores, hikes, problem solving, taking care of the horses) and then they go and debrief. One thing they had my son do (he will argue and debate anyone on anytopic) was he had to carry a piece of paper around with him and whenever he started to argue, another student could ask for the paper and write their name on it. At the end of the week, my son turned it in and talked about his thoughts on whether he learned anything from the exercise. My son actually said that he thought it helped him realize that he was arguing too much, and mostly about trivial items. He has reported back to me that he is doing his best to recognize how he is perceived and is arguing less. He went on to say that he will never stop debating (I smiled when he said this), but that he is learning how to control himself.
So, while both my son and I are seeing progress, he still desperately wants to come home (I'm sure most, if not all the kids would rather be at home). I am doing my best to evaluate both my son and the program, and making sure that when I do bring him home, he has the best chance to stay home and not be so self-destructive.
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Hang in there, Niles. Your son will be home soon enough. When he gets home just take him out of the pine box and tell him how proud you are of him for not quitting the program. Good luck!
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http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm)
ASPEN RANCH
IN LOA, UT
SURVIVOR REPORTS
SURVIVOR REPORT #1 BY ANONYMOUS
I wish I knew where to begin. I will try to focus on the most disturbing experiences i can
remember but, like many other survivors of such programs i find myself having a hard time remembering everything that went on.
For the first two weeks you arrive at Aspen Ranch you are placed on a level known as round-up. During this period of time you are either silent in a basement, or outside doing manual labor (changing watering pipes, building fences etc).
You can not have any contact with your parents and get to talk to a therapist maybe once or twice.
One July morning when I refused to go outside, the sheets were ripped out from under me and I was carried and thrown onto a staircase where two men put my shoes on picked me up and dragged me to the field where I was to work. Afraid of any other forms of punishment,
I did. Being physically threatened is a major way they get you to follow the rules.
Every week you got to speak with your parents, on speakerphone, with your therapist present for 20 minutes. If you ever tried to tell your parents about the torture you were suffering through the conversation would be immediately terminated. All letters were read before sent,
all incoming mail opened read and inspected before given to you. The only contact allowed was to your parents and had to be positive.
On top of whatever work project your team was assigned to each day you also had to participate in an hour long physical, no matter how physically drained you were. People would sometimes pass out or break down begging to stop but, for the most part the physical went on for as long as the supervisor saw fit.
The psychological abuse was never ending, if you were suspected of doing something wrong you would be forced to go into the basement and sit at a desk until you admitted what you were accused of. We were often threatened to be sent to an out of country program where we were told there was no child labor laws, I still don't know if this program exists but, the mere threat was enough to keep most of us "in line".
I could go on forever with stories of this sort. My main point though, please do not put your child through
this, two years later I am still suffering from the lies I was fed.
Please protect my identity. I know this is not a complete story but I think it gets the point across. If you need my full name and dates I attended the program for your own records I can let you know, thanks so much for raising awareness about such horrible programs.
SURVIVOR REPORT #2 BY ANON
These are all factual events that take place at aspen ranch everyday, these are events that have taken place and will continue to unless someone takes action soon. Everything in my statement is true and I give HEAL permission to use my
statement.
I am a survivor of the aspen ranch school, located in Loa, UT. A Theraputic Boarding school/ rehabilitation center.....my ass. Aspen Ranch uses a physical restraint system called PCS (positive control system) which is actually FAR from positive. PCS includes a barrage or various pressure points and bent wrists, locked joints, and strained tendons.
Once put into PCS submission you are held here by a minimum of 3 staff, you're pulse regularly checked to indicate your level of anger. You are normally on the ground (also known as "Carpet Time" for a norm of 45 minutes to an hour) They use any method of getting you down, whether it be calmly asking you to cooperate with them or tackling you through a crowd of
people onto concrete (which seems to be a staff favorite). I have seen many of my friends at Aspen Ranch end up with broken wrists from PCS. I have myself lost the feeling in the tips of my fingers for days as a result of being held in PCS submission for over 3 hours.
Once you are PCSed (on top of everything) you have to go to R&R (redirection and recovery)
more commonly known as the room where you where red sweat pants and sweat shirts even in the dead of the summer (in the Desert) to no avail.
The "on campus" psychiatrist's prescribe you medications based on staff behavioral reports, without even consulting you to see how you feel about putting a new foreign substance into your body or checking past medical records (could be detrimental to your well being). For example I myself was a bit ADHD according to staff, and the staff apparently thought that they were doing me a favor recommending that i be prescribed to Ritalin (methylphindate), which
actually led to a number of seizures...to bad they didn't bother to check to see if my family had a history of amphetamine
related seizures. thanks aspen ranch!!
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Hang in there Nigel. Dont let all the negative propaganda get to you. One thing I did was compare what was written here to what my kid told me and I found the negative information posted here to have very little credibility.
Keep the communication with your sons therapist and with your son "open" and keep asking questions and you will eventually feel at ease with your decision and the safety of your son.
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I have read those survivor reports. As I have said before, I am keeping my eyes and ears open. I asked my son about any physical abuse, and he told me that he hadn't seen any (in 2.5 months) but he had heard stories about kids that wouldn't do what they were told, so they were first warned and then physically held. As for the phone calls, I do know that the therapist is there with him, but I was also with him for 4 hours by ourselves and he didn't tell me that he was being forced to be cooperative and say only positive things. As for the letters, he is very honest and open. I have never got the feeling that he hasn't told me everything. My son will be the first to report anything he feels is abuse (I am positive about this). I am not writing here to advocate for The Aspen Ranch, only to ask for everyones advice and to let you know how my son is doing. If I feel things are not good there, I will let you know, and if I feel it has been good for my son, I will also report that.
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Hi again,
My faults as a parent were that I would always get on him for all that he did wrong, and I didn't find the time to tell him that I was proud of him and that I loved him. I am doing my best to make sure he knows that I see him working on things and that I am very proud of him.
While it is good to see you taking responsibility for your "troubled parent" behavior, did you really need to abandon your son to an abusive program to learn this? You finally learned that people respond to love and encouragement and rebel against being criticized, nagged and being constantly told what they are doing wrong while anything they do right is ignored? He can't "work on things" at home? With the family and in the world he will return to and have to function in? Your son wants and needs your love; it should be unconditional, not meted out as a reward for submitting to a program that is going to do in spades to him what you recognized you yourself did wrong with him. You didn't find the time to tell him you were proud of him and love him while he was at home? But you have certainly found the time to send him away...time you will never, ever get back, precious time with your child squandered in the service of a profit-making business run by people who will never ever appreciate the value of that time.
You sound like you really love your son and want to do the best for him. You should figure out how much money you are willing to give these people then take that money, take a leave of absence from your job, take your son, sail around the world, backpack through Europe, visit Alaska or take a road trip, hang out and get to know each other, build some trust. No matter how much you love your son unless you can communicate that to him in a way he will understand it is really just words. That means you need to get to know who he really is and right now you don't. know him. A program will only widen that gulf.
While he may survive and even forgive you, you will lose something precious you will never get back:the chance to forge the kind of bond that will have a momumentally better affect on your son and his behavior that any program will ever be able to conjure up.
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Hi again,
My faults as a parent were that I would always get on him for all that he did wrong, and I didn't find the time to tell him that I was proud of him and that I loved him. I am doing my best to make sure he knows that I see him working on things and that I am very proud of him.
While it is good to see you taking responsibility for your "troubled parent" behavior, did you really need to abandon your son to an abusive program to learn this? You finally learned that people respond to love and encouragement and rebel against being criticized, nagged and being constantly told what they are doing wrong while anything they do right is ignored? He can't "work on things" at home? With the family and in the world he will return to and have to function in? Your son wants and needs your love; it should be unconditional, not meted out as a reward for submitting to a program that is going to do in spades to him what you recognized you yourself did wrong with him. You didn't find the time to tell him you were proud of him and love him while he was at home? But you have certainly found the time to send him away...time you will never, ever get back, precious time with your child squandered in the service of a profit-making business run by people who will never ever appreciate the value of that time.
You sound like you really love your son and want to do the best for him. You should figure out how much money you are willing to give these people then take that money, take a leave of absence from your job, take your son, sail around the world, backpack through Europe, visit Alaska or take a road trip, hang out and get to know each other, build some trust. No matter how much you love your son unless you can communicate that to him in a way he will understand it is really just words. That means you need to get to know who he really is and right now you don't. know him. A program will only widen that gulf.
While he may survive and even forgive you, you will lose something precious you will never get back:the chance to forge the kind of bond that will have a momumentally better affect on your son and his behavior that any program will ever be able to conjure up.
If it would work that would be the best scenario. I thought of going to the northeast for a few months and rent a cabin. But I couldn’t get the leave of absence for my job and I have other kids at home to consider. It wouldn’t be fair to them to just run off. To tell you the truth my daughter wasn’t responding to any of it anyway at the time.
The best would have been to go back and do it over again but that isn’t possible. Although we were apart a lot of the time, the time spent there was good for her. It gave her time to focus on herself and figure out what was important to her. The program boasted her self esteem and got her back to the books and actually brought her closer to her mother and me because we could work on our issues separately and realized how much we missed and depended on each other as a family. The little time we did spend together was precious. She blossomed like a flower, matured and learned to communicate her feelings very well so that there wasn’t anything we couldn’t talk about.
There was never a time she spent there that she didn’t feel safe. Like Nigel stated about his son, if she ever wanted to come home because she was frightened or being abused she would have told me on our weekly phone calls or when we visited.
I am sorry you had such a bad experience and have read that some programs can treat kids that way here on fornits. Maybe we were fortunate we chose the right program, but I would hesitate to do it again faced with the same circumstances.
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While it is good to see you taking responsibility for your "troubled parent" behavior, did you really need to abandon your son to an abusive program to learn this? You finally learned that people respond to love and encouragement and rebel against being criticized, nagged and being constantly told what they are doing wrong while anything they do right is ignored? He can't "work on things" at home? With the family and in the world he will return to and have to function in? Your son wants and needs your love; it should be unconditional, not meted out as a reward for submitting to a program that is going to do in spades to him what you recognized you yourself did wrong with him. You didn't find the time to tell him you were proud of him and love him while he was at home? But you have certainly found the time to send him away...time you will never, ever get back, precious time with your child squandered in the service of a profit-making business run by people who will never ever appreciate the value of that time.
I didn't abandon my son for me to learn any lessons. I sent my son to Aspen Ranch because he was spiraling downwards and he was heading towards suicide. We tried everything we could think of, and he was at the breaking point. He claimed he hated my wife and me and he was running away and saying he was going to end his life. When I tried to talk to him about how I could help him, he told me all of my advice sucked and he wasn't going to listen to me anymore. When I told him that we could look for a relative that he could go to live with or a boarding school of his choice (not a therapeutic boarding school), he told us that he would kill us in our sleep if we ever tried to ship him out. He was hurting down deep inside and we had to do something.
Whether sending him to The Aspen Ranch was the right decision, I'm not sure. I am still evaluating it. But I will say that he is safe, he is in a much better frame of mind, he claims he holds no anger towards us for sending him there and that he loves us. I realize he might be saying all of these things trying to manipulate us into bringing him home, but he seems sincere.
I don't mind hearing from the people that tell me that I did the wrong thing, as I am listening to both sides and then also using my best Judgement on what direction I should take with my son. Your'e right, I do love my son very much---and that is why I took this drastic step. I realize their might be repurcusions, but I feel that if I hadn't taken this step, he would be either dead or living on the streets by now.
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I have read those survivor reports. As I have said before, I am keeping my eyes and ears open. I asked my son about any physical abuse, and he told me that he hadn't seen any (in 2.5 months) but he had heard stories about kids that wouldn't do what they were told, so they were first warned and then physically held. As for the phone calls, I do know that the therapist is there with him, but I was also with him for 4 hours by ourselves and he didn't tell me that he was being forced to be cooperative and say only positive things. As for the letters, he is very honest and open. I have never got the feeling that he hasn't told me everything. My son will be the first to report anything he feels is abuse (I am positive about this). I am not writing here to advocate for The Aspen Ranch, only to ask for everyones advice and to let you know how my son is doing. If I feel things are not good there, I will let you know, and if I feel it has been good for my son, I will also report that.
My fear is that he might not realize what is going on is not healthy until later. It depends. Some turn out fine. Some find what goes on to be deeply hurtful. Then again I don't know much about Aspen Ranch specifically, or their methods. The survivor reports are consistent with what I would suspect: little if any physical abuse, some thought reform.
"if you were suspected of doing something wrong you would be forced to go into the basement and sit at a desk until you admitted what you were accused of." is an indication of some things but other than the restraints described, I'd have to actually interview somebody to get a good idea of the psychological methods of change they're using. If there are no LifeStep seminars they might not use LGATs at all. That's a good sign.
If what you're describing with the sheet of paper example is the sole method of how they influence the kids to change, I don't see the problem there. What I wonder about is what you're not hearing and the methods they use in group "therapy" (i.e. is it confrontational attack therapy", are there licensed therapists, etc...). With such tactics it's easy to get a person to not only admit to having problems they don't have but also get them to accept those problems as part of their identities, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy. For example: you say he was smoking pot and taking LSD. While I don't endorse or condemn those things, they are objectively non-addictive. If they convince him he is an addict, powerless over those substances, and that he has a lifelong progressive and fatal disease, he'll then act based on those beliefs... making a non-issue into a genuine problem. With such beliefs you could convince a person they were addicted to tap water and they would binge on it (and studies similar to this have been done). As you can tell, I'm not a huge fan of the disease concept. Are you in a 12 step group or have any relatives in it by any chance? Often I find parents with these beliefs tend to see the worst in their kids.
The only sure way you're going to find that out about all this is to wait until he's not only home, but out of your house. Many kids never trust their parents after being sent to a program. Was he escorted there?
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I didn't abandon my son for me to learn any lessons. I sent my son to Aspen Ranch because he was spiraling downwards and he was heading towards suicide. We tried everything we could think of, and he was at the breaking point. He claimed he hated my wife and me and he was running away and saying he was going to end his life. When I tried to talk to him about how I could help him, he told me all of my advice sucked and he wasn't going to listen to me anymore. When I told him that we could look for a relative that he could go to live with or a boarding school of his choice (not a therapeutic boarding school), he told us that he would kill us in our sleep if we ever tried to ship him out. He was hurting down deep inside and we had to do something.
It sounds like he had some issues for sure. I wonder, though, whether the program will help him understand the root causes of why he was doing what he was doing. He might act better out of fear or thought reform, but if the change isn't from within it won't last.
Whether sending him to The Aspen Ranch was the right decision, I'm not sure. I am still evaluating it. But I will say that he is safe, he is in a much better frame of mind, he claims he holds no anger towards us for sending him there and that he loves us. I realize he might be saying all of these things trying to manipulate us into bringing him home, but he seems sincere.
LOL. Well I guess you'll find out if he gets home and you don't' end up killed in your sleep. Seriously, though. Especially if he was escorted there you'll have to consider the possibility that he'll actually be afraid of you... scared into good behavior. I'm not sure ruling through fear is a good parenting style.
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Hey Nigel,
I just want to fill in a few facts that the poster (known as TheWho) is leaving out of his 'story' he's telling you.
1. He never had a child at Aspen Ranch. Never. So he's trying to lead you to belive he did, but he didn't. He's known here as a liar.
2. He claims his daughter went 'back to the books' but she actually dropped out of school as soon as she couls when she got home.
3. He claims she 'blossomed like a flower' but she actually went directly back to hardcore drug and alcohol abuse within a few days of coming home.
4. He claims her program helped reunite his family, but his daughter actually estranged herself from him as soon as she came home.
5. He claims she's now successful, but she's a marginally employed highschool dropout living with a drug addict boyfriend out of wedlock.
Just thought you should know the truth about the guy advising you and what he claims is 'success.' You should also know he runs a feeder referral service for AEG.
Cheers,
Longtime Poster with Knowledge about TheWho
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Yeah. He did admit his daughter now refuses to talk to him.
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Hey Nigel,
I just want to fill in a few facts that the poster (known as TheWho) is leaving out of his 'story' he's telling you.
1. He never had a child at Aspen Ranch. Never. So he's trying to lead you to belive he did, but he didn't. He's known here as a liar.
2. He claims his daughter went 'back to the books' but she actually dropped out of school as soon as she couls when she got home.
3. He claims she 'blossomed like a flower' but she actually went directly back to hardcore drug and alcohol abuse within a few days of coming home.
4. He claims her program helped reunite his family, but his daughter actually estranged herself from him as soon as she came home.
5. He claims she's now successful, but she's a marginally employed highschool dropout living with a drug addict boyfriend out of wedlock.
Just thought you should know the truth about the guy advising you and what he claims is 'success.' You should also know he runs a feeder referral service for AEG.
Cheers,
Longtime Poster with Knowledge about TheWho
Seems someone is tiny bit upset that Nigels son is getting the help he needs like most of the other kids there (you are so hoping that he will fail). Time to bring out the guns and start discrediting any poster who says anything positive about Aspen Ranch. Sorry that you cannot contribute to the conversation and can only insert lies or beat up any poster who has a differing opinion. Not cool. Lets keep the posts honest or supply links to back up your posts!!!
Welcome to the open forum everyone!!
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He was escorted there. As I said, he had told us that he would kill us if we tried to "ship him out" . I was very worried about this process and what it might do to our relationship in the future. I contacted an escort service. I walked in to his room at 7 am and told him I loved him. I quickly told him that his mother and I felt like this was the only thing we could do to save his life. The two escorts then spent 45 minutes in his room with him describing what was going to happen over the rest of the day. They explained that he could come quietly or they could restrain him, but either way he was going to go. My son went quietly and cooperatively. I thought they did a very professional Job in a compassionate way. Since this time, I have talked to my son and he knows why I did what I did. I told him that I felt like I needed to lie to him and I explained that I only did it to save his life. He agrees with me that he wouldn't have gone voluntarily and that he knows he was messed up.
My biggest concern now is knowing when it is right to bring him home. He wants to come home asap. I want to bring him home when I know he is ready (there is no easy way to make sure you are doing it at the right time). I will continue to evaluate.
I am thankful that there is a forum where I can hear both sides. I don't believe everything I read, but I am open minded enough to realize that there is abuse in some programs (there is mental and physical abuse in our schools throughout the world as well), and I am paying close attention to everything that is going on. I will continue to assess and I will let you all know how things are going.
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LOL. Well I guess you'll find out if he gets home and you don't' end up killed in your sleep. Seriously, though. Especially if he was escorted there you'll have to consider the possibility that he'll actually be afraid of you... scared into good behavior. I'm not sure ruling through fear is a good parenting style.
Scare tactics isn’t nice Psy. His son will learn and grow during his time there and will work through all those issues with his therapist and eventually with his therapist and family. If there are trust issues they will get addressed. In fact Nigel may consider bringing this up himself to the therapist at some point down the road. Everything gets put on the table. Thats one of the strengths of these places. The transition back home is one of the critical stages and a lot needs to be worked out between the parents and child to insure the child has a safe environment to return to. One where he feels safe to talk to the parents about anything and wont be judged for making mistakes. The program will prepare him and the parents need to be ready to handle the childs transition back home. But if the child returns home too early then it could all fall apart fairly quickly. The parents need to listen to the therapist and get to know the childs staff members also and get a good feel for how their son is doing in their eyes as well.
2 months is a little premature to tell but it seems to be going very well for them.
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Thanks for the heads-up on the who. I searched his posts and found that all those things are things he said, but he seemsw to change his story a lot and pretend to be all different people. I definitely wouldn't trust anything he says. He just lies too much.
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99% chance you’re a troll,NIGEL, but, god help us, there really are people as gross as you.
You “had him escorted”? You mean you had him kidnapped, you evil Joseph fritzl. He says he knows he was messed up? Uh, yeah, victims say all sorts of crap they feel will please their captors in effort to save themselves.
Elizabeth Smart said she was Brian David Mitchell’s wedded wife:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90754&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90754&page=1)
"I know you think I'm Elizabeth Smart, but I'm not".
He denies physical abuse? Ain’t kidnapping someone physical abuse? Yeah, it is--its illegal in fact! http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_re ... m01037.htm (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01037.htm)
But doing evil, seemingly socially accepted things to a kid can sure confuse them about what qualifies as physical abuse, kidnapping or reality. You, you have no excuse. You are simply a morally deranged gargoyle.
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99% chance you’re a troll,NIGEL, but, god help us, there really are people as gross as you.
You “had him escorted”? You mean you had him kidnapped, you evil Joseph fritzl. He says he knows he was messed up? Uh, yeah, victims say all sorts of crap they feel will please their captors in effort to save themselves.
Elizabeth Smart said she was Brian David Mitchell’s wedded wife:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90754&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90754&page=1)
"I know you think I'm Elizabeth Smart, but I'm not".
He denies physical abuse? Ain’t kidnapping someone physical abuse? Yeah, it is--its illegal in fact! http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_re ... m01037.htm (http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01037.htm)
But doing evil, seemingly socially accepted things to a kid can sure confuse them about what qualifies as physical abuse, kidnapping or reality. You, you have no excuse. You are simply a morally deranged gargoyle.
Ha,Ha,Ha, Sorry, Nigel, dont take it too seriously. The longer you ignore the pleas to remove your son the more you will be compared to the Nazis. The Elizabeth Smart reference is a new twist. There are a few fringe elements who post here so dont let them chase you off.
Hang in there........ you are definitely getting all sides here!!
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Thanks for the heads-up on the who. I searched his posts and found that all those things are things he said, but he seemsw to change his story a lot and pretend to be all different people. I definitely wouldn't trust anything he says. He just lies too much.
True. Nigel, just look at the thread 'TheWho' and you'll see this is true. I'd also suggest you pull up his username and display all of his posts. The lies and contradictions are evident after reading just a few posts.
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My biggest concern now is knowing when it is right to bring him home. He wants to come home asap. I want to bring him home when I know he is ready (there is no easy way to make sure you are doing it at the right time). I will continue to evaluate.
Well. Be aware that "your child is making much progress but he still needs more time and isn't ready yet" (sort of like a pizza) is a common theme with programs. My guess is that if you took him home right how he would probably behave himself, especially if you got him therapy to help him both deal with his original issues and any the program may have caused.
I am thankful that there is a forum where I can hear both sides.
Well. That's the point of this forum. Sometimes it can get crazy since it's unmoderated, but it's better than having to trust a moderator who can covertly change your words or delete your posts entirely and ban you just to suppress a dissenting view (and I've seen this happen on other forums dealing with this issue... of which the only ones left are private).
I don't believe everything I read, but I am open minded
A wise policy.
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Nigel, just look at the thread 'TheWho' and you'll see this is true. I'd also suggest you pull up his username and display all of his posts. The lies and contradictions are evident after reading just a few posts.
Actually, it takes a sharp eye and several pages to really spot it. He's good at what he does. There's no question about that. I would suggest to Nigel to look not just at both sides but also at the possible underlying motivations for what is said by each poster. Motivations reveal a lot.
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But if the child returns home too early then it could all fall apart fairly quickly.
As I said. Look at motivations for what is said. My parents were told this as well (he needs more time (more money) etc..). I was taken out early and did fine. Better than fine. I excelled where they said I would fail. I was scared to talk to my parents about the program early on, though. The program insisted we not talk about my experiences there. Based on how fragile our relationship was at the time I didn't dare break that silence. I didn't think they would believe me if I told them anyway. I also didn't realize how much the program had affected me at the time. Long story.
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Just my thoughts:
As an observer of sorts and reader here on fornits one thing I find interesting is the posters that are admittedly anti-program seem to always be the ones to try to discredit the people who come here and have positive things to say about their experience or the experience of their son and daughter. You almost never see a parent or child who had a positive experience try to degrade, attack or discredit another poster here that they disagree with. Posters with positive experiences with programs seem to be more open minded to people having good and bad experiences and listening to and accepting both points of view without prejudice. Fornits is definitely heavily onesided towards not supporting sending kids to any type of program. So why would they be the ones to resort to unfair or deceptive posting? I would think it would be the other way around since the pro-program posters have less of a foot hold here. If you truly believe in what you are posting why not rely on those believes and let them stand on their own?
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0/10. Epic fail. ^^TheWho^^ now posting as "guest21". Not even close to convincing. You're so easy to spot that it's comical. If only you could break your habits, you might pass yourself off as some other 'interested party' but you're just too dumb to realize your own signatures.
Nigel, listen to Psy. He actually knows who TheWho is and what he does for a living (program pimp) but for some crazy reason he won't just come out and say it. If the roles were reversed, TheWho would be trying to ruin Psy personally and professionally, but for some weird reason Psy won't blow the whistle on this idiot. :wall:
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Hey Nigel,
I just want to fill in a few facts that the poster (known as TheWho) is leaving out of his 'story' he's telling you.
1. He never had a child at Aspen Ranch. Never. So he's trying to lead you to belive he did, but he didn't. He's known here as a liar.
2. He claims his daughter went 'back to the books' but she actually dropped out of school as soon as she couls when she got home.
3. He claims she 'blossomed like a flower' but she actually went directly back to hardcore drug and alcohol abuse within a few days of coming home.
4. He claims her program helped reunite his family, but his daughter actually estranged herself from him as soon as she came home.
5. He claims she's now successful, but she's a marginally employed highschool dropout living with a drug addict boyfriend out of wedlock.
Just thought you should know the truth about the guy advising you and what he claims is 'success.' You should also know he runs a feeder referral service for AEG.
Cheers,
Longtime Poster with Knowledge about TheWho
Hey Nigel, ask him these questions directly and watch him wiggle and squirm. He desperately wants to spin his story above into "program was successful and daughter is mature and doing great" but sadly, the facts show exactly the above, not his la-la land marketing, get-in-your-pocket spin. Do it and see what he says. :tup:
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Nigel, listen to Psy. He actually knows who TheWho is and what he does for a living (program pimp) but for some crazy reason he won't just come out and say it. If the roles were reversed, TheWho would be trying to ruin Psy personally and professionally, but for some weird reason Psy won't blow the whistle on this idiot. :wall:
It's part of the job working as an admin at Fornits. Even though I might like to "out" him and his antics, it would set a bad precedent and this forum would cease to be the free place it is. The forum can't take sides in a discussion, just as surely as a piece of paper can't erase what's written on it.
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0/10. Epic fail. ^^TheWho^^ now posting as "guest21". Not even close to convincing. You're so easy to spot that it's comical. If only you could break your habits, you might pass yourself off as some other 'interested party' but you're just too dumb to realize your own signatures.
Nigel, listen to Psy. He actually knows who TheWho is and what he does for a living (program pimp) but for some crazy reason he won't just come out and say it. If the roles were reversed, TheWho would be trying to ruin Psy personally and professionally, but for some weird reason Psy won't blow the whistle on this idiot. :wall:
No you are wrong. I am actually guest21 and you just proved my point. Why cant you let people post what they feel? Why do you have this need to control everyone? You are posting without a user name so how do we know if you are telling the truth or not? Who cares if you think one poster is lying or another is. Wouldn’t you be more interested in who is calling Nigel a Nazi and trying to discredit him? Or maybe that was you who posted that and are upset that it didn’t go well and made you look foolish. Let people post openly, allow the process of “open forum” to work. Nigel is getting feedback from both sides and that is whats important.
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0/10. Epic fail. ^^TheWho^^ now posting as "guest21". Not even close to convincing. You're so easy to spot that it's comical. If only you could break your habits, you might pass yourself off as some other 'interested party' but you're just too dumb to realize your own signatures.
Nigel, listen to Psy. He actually knows who TheWho is and what he does for a living (program pimp) but for some crazy reason he won't just come out and say it. If the roles were reversed, TheWho would be trying to ruin Psy personally and professionally, but for some weird reason Psy won't blow the whistle on this idiot. :wall:
No you are wrong. I am actually guest21 and you just proved my point. Why cant you let people post what they feel? Why do you have this need to control everyone? You are posting without a user name so how do we know if you are telling the truth or not? Who cares if you think one poster is lying or another is. Wouldn’t you be more interested in who is calling Nigel a Nazi and trying to discredit him? Or maybe that was you who posted that and are upset that it didn’t go well and made you look foolish. Let people post openly, allow the process of “open forum” to work. Nigel is getting feedback from both sides and that is whats important.
minus 0/10 this time, who boy.
psy, you are not fornits. nobody is. nobody would care one iota if you just said the guy's name. he's killing kids by proxy, brother. that carries weight. you shouldn't let him do it here. don't take this as an attack, either, psy. i have a lot of respect for you. but, we always say "nobody is fornits, nobody represents fornits" etc. you could just post anon and let this fucker get what's coming and nobody would come after you or fornits for it, that i can guarantee.
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Psy already tried to out TheWho and got it wrong. Nobody here knows who TheWho really is, other than guessing. An IP address only tells you what city they are in, provided that's even accurate. Face it, there's nothing anybody can do about TheWho troll.
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psy, you are not fornits. nobody is. nobody would care one iota if you just said the guy's name. he's killing kids by proxy, brother. that carries weight. you shouldn't let him do it here. don't take this as an attack, either, psy. i have a lot of respect for you. but, we always say "nobody is fornits, nobody represents fornits" etc. you could just post anon and let this fucker get what's coming and nobody would come after you or fornits for it, that i can guarantee.
If you're implying I know TheWho's actual real life identity, I don't. Even if I did and I released it (which I wouldn't anyway in my position), how could anybody stop him from speaking here?
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nobody said he should be silenced. i just want to see all of his efforts here tied to his real identity so all of his friends (if he has any), his family (the ones who haven't been killed by AEG) and his colleagues can see what a really sick and deranged guy he is.
if he was one bit proud of anything he has ever done here, he'd be telling people about it. but he doesn't. he hides what he does here because he's embarrassed of it. "hang on guys, i'll be right back to watch the game. ha, ha, ha i gotta go argue for a few hours with a 15 year old kid who was raped and tell her how it's all her fault for dressing like a slut and drinking ha, ha, ha." i would be embarrassed too if i was a shitbag liar using fear to make money from shiftless and stupid parents and told my kid's dirty business to thousands of strangers on the internet.
he doesn't want his wife to know that he gets up in the middle of the night to feed his obsession here or that when he's supposed to be working he posts for 5 or 6 hours every day. if anyone else knew what he was doing here his tiny little life would collapse on him.
what would you think if you were his wife and you found what he does here, read it all and came to realize you're married to a complete liar with a whole second life you didn't know about or how he gets almost sexual gratification by degrading already horribly abused kids. no, you can bet he keeps this all a secret. i'd like to see his wife and kid find his work here. he's a scumbag.
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Can we please not have this thread degrade into another "we hate the who bla bla". Just provide counterpoints and if you want to fantasize about killing the guy, there's a thread for that (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21624).
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nobody said he should be silenced. i just want to see all of his efforts here tied to his real identity so all of his friends (if he has any), his family (the ones who haven't been killed by AEG) and his colleagues can see what a really sick and deranged guy he is.
Why dont you show us the way, "Guest"? Have your posts tied together and then reveal your identity so your family knows what you write here and we know who you are. Is this fair? Why dont you ever ask survivors to have their posts tied together why is it always the posters who post positive results from programs that are chosen? Why is it so difficult to tolerate an open forum where everyone gets a voice without discrediting those who disagree with you?
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^TheWho^
Why do people continue to waste their time with this troll?
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^TheWho^
Why do people continue to waste their time with this troll?
That last post was mine, not this "who" guy. I should probably get a user name to avoid confusion. I appologize.
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Nigel, I was wondering (if you happen to find the time) if you could answer some questions for us. There has been conflicting information circulating here on fornits about Aspen and other programs which has made choosing a program a bit confusing. You may not know the answers right now but after visiting and speaking to your son maybe you could help to clarify for those parents considering placing their child at Aspen Ranch. If we could find out first hand if any of these are really true it would be a big help. These may be just scare tactics to keep parents from placing their kids, but we would feel much better to know for sure.
1) We heard that if a child doesn’t follow the rules they subject them to a restrictive diet or “starvation diet” consisting of a slice of cheese on white bread and water as their entire meal.
2) Kids are required to carry rocks around all day long instead of going to school.
3) The kids are not allowed to use the bathroom or shower without a staff being present with them.
4) Some kids are placed into a small isolation room for days if they break the rules.
5) Staff monitors their phone calls and if they say they want to come home or say anything negative the call is terminated and the child is told they will have to stay in the program longer.
6) Kids are restrained up to 14 times a day and medicated while under restraint.
7) If they break a rule they are required to wear an orange jump suit.
8.) Some kids are tied to their bed at nights.
9) Kids are forced to sit in metal chairs for 18 hours straight with no bathroom break.
10) The therapists have no degrees.
Thanks in advance.
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I don't think any of that has been said specifically about Aspen Ranch.
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Nigel, I was wondering (if you happen to find the time) if you could answer some questions for us. There has been conflicting information circulating here on fornits about Aspen and other programs which has made choosing a program a bit confusing. You may not know the answers right now but after visiting and speaking to your son maybe you could help to clarify for those parents considering placing their child at Aspen Ranch. If we could find out first hand if any of these are really true it would be a big help. These may be just scare tactics to keep parents from placing their kids, but we would feel much better to know for sure.
1) We heard that if a child doesn’t follow the rules they subject them to a restrictive diet or “starvation diet” consisting of a slice of cheese on white bread and water as their entire meal.
2) Kids are required to carry rocks around all day long instead of going to school.
3) The kids are not allowed to use the bathroom or shower without a staff being present with them.
4) Some kids are placed into a small isolation room for days if they break the rules.
5) Staff monitors their phone calls and if they say they want to come home or say anything negative the call is terminated and the child is told they will have to stay in the program longer.
6) Kids are restrained up to 14 times a day and medicated while under restraint.
7) If they break a rule they are required to wear an orange jump suit.
8.) Some kids are tied to their bed at nights.
9) Kids are forced to sit in metal chairs for 18 hours straight with no bathroom break.
10) The therapists have no degrees.
Thanks in advance.
This is a very sneaky piece of obfuscation if there ever is one. The poster did, indeed, carefully craft the wording in some (but not all!) of these statements in an attempt to convey reasonable conjecture. The obsession with the orange jumpsuits, however, gives it away.
Obviously, if every single kid were subjected to the above, as some of the statements imply, whichever program they were describing would not last long (but longer than one might imagine, believe it or not).
The key here is understanding how compliance with the program is fostered, coerced, "encouraged," driven home (insert whatever verb you wish). All of the above listed "concerns" have happened to varying degree in one program or another, to one or a number of kids, at some time or another, just not generally to all or to all at the same time. [I'm not sure about the 14 restraints per day claim, however (I seem to remember having read about 6/day from someone at PV), and the sitting in a metal chair for "18 hours straight with no bathroom break" is a bit long (though I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it may have happened from time to time at Straight, Inc. or KIDS).]
Most of the above has happened, more or less, in WWASPs programs. Some of the aforementioned statements have happened with Aspen programs, as well as several other programs.
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Nigel, I was wondering (if you happen to find the time) if you could answer some questions for us. There has been conflicting information circulating here on fornits about Aspen and other programs which has made choosing a program a bit confusing. You may not know the answers right now but after visiting and speaking to your son maybe you could help to clarify for those parents considering placing their child at Aspen Ranch. If we could find out first hand if any of these are really true it would be a big help. These may be just scare tactics to keep parents from placing their kids, but we would feel much better to know for sure.
1) We heard that if a child doesn’t follow the rules they subject them to a restrictive diet or “starvation diet” consisting of a slice of cheese on white bread and water as their entire meal.
2) Kids are required to carry rocks around all day long instead of going to school.
3) The kids are not allowed to use the bathroom or shower without a staff being present with them.
4) Some kids are placed into a small isolation room for days if they break the rules.
5) Staff monitors their phone calls and if they say they want to come home or say anything negative the call is terminated and the child is told they will have to stay in the program longer.
6) Kids are restrained up to 14 times a day and medicated while under restraint.
7) If they break a rule they are required to wear an orange jump suit.
8.) Some kids are tied to their bed at nights.
9) Kids are forced to sit in metal chairs for 18 hours straight with no bathroom break.
10) The therapists have no degrees.
Thanks in advance.
The info given to HEAL was not "conflicting." The info was provided in the form of sworn testimony and is very actionable and not given lightly. If untrue, why does Aspen not file suit?
Well, because, as you know troll, it's all quite accurate.
You are a program troll "asking" your sockpuppet a "question" in effort to propagandize for Aspen Education Abusive Gulag Inc.
Here's that non conflicting sworn testimony again:
http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm)
SURVIVOR REPORT #1 BY ANONYMOUS
I wish I knew where to begin. I will try to focus on the most disturbing experiences i can
remember but, like many other survivors of such programs i find myself having a hard time remembering everything that went on.
For the first two weeks you arrive at Aspen Ranch you are placed on a level known as round-up. During this period of time you are either silent in a basement, or outside doing manual labor (changing watering pipes, building fences etc). You can not have any contact with your parents and get to talk to a therapist maybe once or twice.
One July morning when I refused to go outside, the sheets were ripped out from under me and I was carried and thrown onto a staircase where two men put my shoes on picked me up and dragged me to the field where I was to work. Afraid of any other forms of punishment,
I did. Being physically threatened is a major way they get you to follow the rules.
Every week you got to speak with your parents, on speakerphone, with your therapist present for 20 minutes. If you ever tried to tell your parents about the torture you were suffering through the conversation would be immediately terminated. All letters were read before sent,
all incoming mail opened read and inspected before given to you. The only contact allowed was to your parents and had to be positive.
On top of whatever work project your team was assigned to each day you also had to participate in an hour long physical, no matter how physically drained you were. People would sometimes pass out or break down begging to stop but, for the most part the physical went on for as long as the supervisor saw fit.
The psychological abuse was never ending, if you were suspected of doing something wrong you would be forced to go into the basement and sit at a desk until you admitted what you were accused of. We were often threatened to be sent to an out of country program where we were told there was no child labor laws, I still don't know if this program exists but, the mere threat was enough to keep most of us "in line".
I could go on forever with stories of this sort. My main point though, please do not put your child through this, two years later I am still suffering from the lies I was fed.
Please protect my identity. I know this is not a complete story but I think it gets the point across. If you needfull name and dates for your own records I can let you know, thanks so much for raising awareness about such horrible programs.
SURVIVOR REPORT #2 BY ANON
These are all factual events that take place at aspen ranch everyday, these are events that have taken place and will continue to unless someone takes action soon. Everything in my statement is true and I give HEAL permission to use my statement. I am a survivor of the aspen ranch school, located in Loa, UT. A Theraputic Boarding school/ rehabilitation
center.....my ass.
Aspen Ranch uses a physical restraint system called PCS (positive control system) which is actually FAR from positive. PCS includes a barrage or various pressure points and bent wrists, locked joints, and strained tendons. Once put into PCS submission you are held here by a minimum of 3 staff, you're pulse regularly checked to indicate your
level of anger. You are normally on the ground (also known as "Carpet Time" for a norm of 45 minutes to an hour) They use any method of getting you down, whether it be calmly asking you to cooperate with them or tackling you through a crowd of people onto concrete (which seems to be a staff favorite).
I have seen many of my friends at Aspen Ranch end up with broken wrists from PCS. I have myself lost the feeling in the tips of my fingers for days as a result of being held in PCS
submission for over 3 hours.
Once you are PCSed (on top of everything) you have to go to R&R (redirection and recovery) more commonly known as the room where you where red sweat pants and sweat shirts even in the dead of the summer (in the Desert) to no avail.
The "on campus" psychiatrist's prescribe you medications based on staff behavioral reports, without even consulting you to see how you feel about putting a new foreign substance into your body or checking past medical records (could be detrimental to your well being). For example I myself was a bit ADHD according to staff, and the staff apparently thought that they were doing me a favor recommending that i be prescribed to ritalin (methylphindate), which
actually led to a number of seizures...too bad they didn't bother to check to see if my family had a history of amphetamine related seizures. thanks aspen ranch!!
-Anon
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I don't think any of that has been said specifically about Aspen Ranch.
Yes it has. Aspen Ranch of Aspen Education, Bain capital, CRC Health also physically abuses/tortures detainees.
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Exactly, Thank you for posting those. Those were a few I was refering to. That is the type of information we have been getting here on fornits, but when we speak with other parents who had kids in aspen Ranch they didnt see any of that. So is it because some kids experience this and others do not? or has Aspen Ranch changed over time? or are the stories just isolated cases because of untrained Staff situations? Is there any truth to these at all?
Getting Nigels perspective and first hand accounts would really help to clear up some of these questions.
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If untrue, why does Aspen not file suit?
I always found this statement interesting. To try to assume the statement “that just because no one is suing me than I must be telling the truth”. This just isn’t true. I could walk around saying that McDonalds uses Horse meat in their hamburgers all day long and I would not get sued. I Could stand on a street corner and holdup a sign to the same effect and maybe get away with it too... but as soon as I start affecting local or regional sales figures then the police will start to move me along and harass me.... but still no law suit.. why?
Because a lawsuit isn’t a decision of passion it is based on the bottom line. If I cause the local McDonalds to lose $5,000 in sales and it will cost them $10,000 to silence me then it wont happen. Once you tip the scales where your actions are costing them more money then it costs to sue you then (and only then) will you be served.
So dont believe that these people are telling the truth because they haven’t been sued. It could be that they are not having an effect... (or big enough effect) who knows?
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I went to Aspen and it was great! Before I went I was disrespectful and did a lot of drugs, cigarettes and alcohol. But when I got home my parents loved me and I have been sober since my fifteenth birthday. I wear my first 30 day chip around my neck as a reminder to how lucky I am.
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I will tell you what I know about the list. These are the items I know about:
3) The kids are not allowed to use the bathroom or shower without a staff being present with them.
The kids have privacy in the bathrooms, but they can't lock the doors.
5) Staff monitors their phone calls and if they say they want to come home or say anything negative the call is terminated and the child is told they will have to stay in the program longer.
On the phone calls there is a therapist on the call. The therapist did say that we weren't going to spend the whole phone call with pleas to come home, but rather work on things.
7) If they break a rule they are required to wear an orange jump suit.
The kids wear an orange vest when they are deemed "at risk of running." When I visited, I saw a young man with one on (they look like the vest that people wear when they are working on the side of the road).
10) The therapists have no degrees.
I know that the therapists that are dealing with my son do have their degrees. I met his main therapist and she seemed very professional and also very nice. She has been good on the phone calls and my son hasn't complained about her.
The other items either don't take place, or haven't happened since my son has been there. I am positive that my son will tell me what goes on and he won't be brainwashed.
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This is a very sneaky piece of obfuscation if there ever is one. The poster did, indeed, carefully craft the wording in some (but not all!) of these statements in an attempt to convey reasonable conjecture. The obsession with the orange jumpsuits, however, gives it away.
Obviously, if every single kid were subjected to the above, as some of the statements imply, whichever program they were describing would not last long (but longer than one might imagine, believe it or not).
The key here is understanding how compliance with the program is fostered, coerced, "encouraged," driven home (insert whatever verb you wish). All of the above listed "concerns" have happened to varying degree in one program or another, to one or a number of kids, at some time or another, just not generally to all or to all at the same time. [I'm not sure about the 14 restraints per day claim, however (I seem to remember having read about 6/day from someone at PV), and the sitting in a metal chair for "18 hours straight with no bathroom break" is a bit long (though I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it may have happened from time to time at Straight, Inc. or KIDS).]
Most of the above has happened, more or less, in WWASPs programs. Some of the aforementioned statements have happened with Aspen programs, as well as several other programs.
Yes, I think that is an interesting point. Many of the posts here are misleading. If a poster comes on to fornits and starts asking if sending their child to Aspen Ranch is a good idea or if the place is safe we get posting like the 300 lb staff member who sat on a kid or a picture of the Hobbit isolation room or stories of kids having to carry rocks around all day or denied food. Yes, these may have happened at one point or another in isolated cases, but they don’t apply to the here and now and they don’t apply to Aspen Ranch. They occurred in another time and another place.
Lets look at it another way. It is like asking a neighbor if the local public school is any good and they start showing you photos and articles of a teacher who had sex with a student from another part of the country and defending her position by saying all public schools are alike. Would this be a valid argument for not sending your child to public school? I wouldn’t think so but it seems to be more accepted here on fornits as a position or bases for argument.
I think it is good to clarify that not all programs are alike and you cannot take an incident from one program and apply it to another. Each place is independent and run differently.
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I will tell you what I know about the list. These are the items I know about:
3) The kids are not allowed to use the bathroom or shower without a staff being present with them.
The kids have privacy in the bathrooms, but they can't lock the doors.
5) Staff monitors their phone calls and if they say they want to come home or say anything negative the call is terminated and the child is told they will have to stay in the program longer.
On the phone calls there is a therapist on the call. The therapist did say that we weren't going to spend the whole phone call with pleas to come home, but rather work on things.
7) If they break a rule they are required to wear an orange jump suit.
The kids wear an orange vest when they are deemed "at risk of running." When I visited, I saw a young man with one on (they look like the vest that people wear when they are working on the side of the road).
10) The therapists have no degrees.
I know that the therapists that are dealing with my son do have their degrees. I met his main therapist and she seemed very professional and also very nice. She has been good on the phone calls and my son hasn't complained about her.
The other items either don't take place, or haven't happened since my son has been there. I am positive that my son will tell me what goes on and he won't be brainwashed.
Nigel. Those questions were written by the same guests pretending to be Aspen Ranch parents. His aim is to encourage you in your decision to keep your son there through deception and to make the rest of us look like crazy liars by imitating us and making wild exaggerated accusations (so you'll stop listening to *any* concerns, however valid). How do I know this? Because he has a very distinctive writing style and in his arrogance he can't help but sign his posts with certain distinguishing characteristics such as his signature mention of Orange Jumpsuits (as Ursus pointed out). There are valid concerns about the Aspen program you have placed your child in but almost none of them were in that list of questions. He's also a fan of responding to his own posts. As Psy suggested, read up on Sockpuppeteering, Astroturfing, and Fraudiences.
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I am positive that my son will tell me what goes on and he won't be brainwashed.
Since it's largely a transparent process (See Singer's first condition (http://http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=6)), neither you nor he would know until a while after leaving the program. Now you could say "well.. maybe brainwashing is a good thing if he starts behaving right". Well. The problem with that, ethics aside, is that thought reform ceases to function shortly after a person leaves the closed environment. He might act changed for a while after getting home but will almost assuredly assume his old identity after a short period of time. Real change comes from within, as I've said. My advice, is to take him out and deal with him at home through therapy, volunteer activities he enjoys, sports, community service and so forth rather than waste your time and money on a program that will be ineffective at best and could very well leave him with lasting psychological scars at worst.
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Nigel. Those questions were written by the same guests pretending to be Aspen Ranch parents. His aim is to encourage you in your decision to keep your son there through deception and to make the rest of us look like crazy liars by imitating us and making wild exaggerated accusations (so you'll stop listening to *any* concerns, however valid). How do I know this? Because he has a very distinctive writing style and in his arrogance he can't help but sign his posts with certain distinguishing characteristics such as his signature mention of Orange Jumpsuits (as Ursus pointed out). There are valid concerns about the Aspen program you have placed your child in but almost none of them were in that list of questions. He's also a fan of responding to his own posts. As Psy suggested, read up on Sockpuppeteering, Astroturfing, and Fraudiences.
I made that list up myself (no one elselike you are implying) because I was concerned about the information I was getting here. Why do you try to belittle the questions? You stated above that none of my questions relate to Aspen Ranch (I disagree with you), but why do you make that stement and then not add your specific questions that you say I left out? I am open minded and would like to hear and discuss any questions that you have. Why not pose them to Nigel? Why make it look like a conspiracy all the time?
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Why make it look like a conspiracy all the time?
If it isn't, ask Psy to link your posts together. I'll be the first to apologize. What have you got to lose if you're telling the truth?
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I am positive that my son will tell me what goes on and he won't be brainwashed.
Since it's largely a transparent process (See Singer's first condition (http://http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=6)), neither you nor he would know until a while after leaving the program. Now you could say "well.. maybe brainwashing is a good thing if he starts behaving right". Well. The problem with that, ethics aside, is that thought reform ceases to function shortly after a person leaves the closed environment. He might act changed for a while after getting home but will almost assuredly assume his old identity after a short period of time. Real change comes from within, as I've said. My advice, is to take him out and deal with him at home through therapy, volunteer activities he enjoys, sports, community service and so forth rather than waste your time and money on a program that will be ineffective at best and could very well leave him with lasting psychological scars at worst.
I agree that thought reform would be damaging to anyone who would be exposed to it in captivity. But Behavior modification is totally different and is used throughout ones life, it is a slower process of letting the person embrace and understand a different way of doing things. Think of it as potty training. Potty training is Behavior modification. At the end the child embraces, sees the benefits of dry pants and takes it on as his/hers own. The child isnt damaged by it. The childs quality of life is improved. Its a slow process that is why the programs run as long as they do.
I wish you wouldnt confuse brainwashing with Behavior modification. It is very misleading.
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My advice, is to take him out and deal with him at home through therapy, volunteer activities he enjoys, sports, community service and so forth
Kids are sent to programs because they have serious behavior problems, the cause of which is usually not as simple as a lack of extracurricular activities. Is this really the best alternative to programs you have to offer parents? Sports and volunteer work?
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My advice, is to take him out and deal with him at home through therapy, volunteer activities he enjoys, sports, community service and so forth
Kids are sent to programs because they have serious behavior problems, the cause of which is usually not as simple as a lack of extracurricular activities. Is this really the best alternative to programs you have to offer parents? Sports and volunteer work?
LOL. Sometimes it's parental interpretation of "serious behavior problems," and sometimes it is even the kid's dysfunctional reaction to outright parental abuse. I'm not saying that this is the case with Nigel, he seems far more concerned and involved than the average program parent, but I'm bringing it up 'cuz there have been far too many cases just like said scenarios.
You seem to have an unusually dour and overly stereotyped image of who gets sent to programs, Guest. Programs will take anyone and everyone who can pay. After all is said and done, that is the be-all and end-all of what this industry is all about. All the rest is rationalizations for the misdeeds.
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I am positive that my son will tell me what goes on and he won't be brainwashed.
Since it's largely a transparent process (See Singer's first condition (http://http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=6)), neither you nor he would know until a while after leaving the program. Now you could say "well.. maybe brainwashing is a good thing if he starts behaving right". Well. The problem with that, ethics aside, is that thought reform ceases to function shortly after a person leaves the closed environment. He might act changed for a while after getting home but will almost assuredly assume his old identity after a short period of time. Real change comes from within, as I've said. My advice, is to take him out and deal with him at home through therapy, volunteer activities he enjoys, sports, community service and so forth rather than waste your time and money on a program that will be ineffective at best and could very well leave him with lasting psychological scars at worst.
I agree that thought reform would be damaging to anyone who would be exposed to it in captivity. But Behavior modification is totally different and is used throughout ones life, it is a slower process of letting the person embrace and understand a different way of doing things. Think of it as potty training. Potty training is Behavior modification. At the end the child embraces, sees the benefits of dry pants and takes it on as his/hers own. The child isnt damaged by it. The childs quality of life is improved. Its a slow process that is why the programs run as long as they do.
I wish you wouldnt confuse brainwashing with Behavior modification. It is very misleading.
Kids in programs aren't being potty-trained. They are, however, being subjugated to a regimen of behavior modification brought about by thought reform, aka thought coercion.
Your attempts to liken programs to potty-training are even more familiar than the orange jumpsuits, I afraid... :D
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My advice, is to take him out and deal with him at home through therapy, volunteer activities he enjoys, sports, community service and so forth
Kids are sent to programs because they have serious behavior problems, the cause of which is usually not as simple as a lack of extracurricular activities. Is this really the best alternative to programs you have to offer parents? Sports and volunteer work?
LOL. Sometimes it's parental interpretation of "serious behavior problems," and sometimes it is even the kid's dysfunctional reaction to outright parental abuse. I'm not saying that this is the case with Nigel, he seems far more concerned and involved than the average program parent, but I'm bringing it up 'cuz there have been far too many cases just like said scenarios.
You seem to have an unusually dour and overly stereotyped image of who gets sent to programs, Guest. Programs will take anyone and everyone who can pay. After all is said and done, that is the be-all and end-all of what this industry is all about. All the rest is rationalizations for the misdeeds.
Actually, from what I have read, Nigel is more the typical program parent . They are mostly the more concerned and involved parents. If they were not then their kids would be home running amok or dead. The kids are not there because they smoked some weed, skipped school a few times or the were the subject of abusive parents. The kids have serious issues which could not be solved locally thru the school counselor, local therapist, hospital etc. and the program is sometimes the last option.
Not all programs will take your child just because you can demonstrate deep pockets and/or a willingness to pay. Many of these places have very strict and defined criteria for acceptance. They only accept the children that the particular program feels they have a high probability of helping. If the program is too structured or not structured enough for a particular student or just not a good fit then they are recommended to another place or outright rejected.
You can address a few of these questions to Nigel,also. After he attends Aspen Ranch a few times and meets the other parents he will be able to tell if they just sent their kids there so they could go on vacation or if they were sent there for good reason. He may even be able to give us insight on the acceptance procedures that they use if you ask.
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Not all programs will take your child just because you can demonstrate deep pockets and/or a willingness to pay. Many of these places have very strict and defined criteria for acceptance. They only accept the children that the particular program feels they have a high probability of helping. If the program is too structured or not structured enough for a particular student or just not a good fit then they are recommended to another place or outright rejected.
Yep. I know how that goes. If one Aspen program is not the greatest fit, there sure is another one (or two, or three) that is. And they usually even have the Admissions Director's home phone number, to further facilitate and expedite that up close and personal, customized Aspen Ed experience. :D
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Not all programs will take your child just because you can demonstrate deep pockets and/or a willingness to pay. Many of these places have very strict and defined criteria for acceptance. They only accept the children that the particular program feels they have a high probability of helping. If the program is too structured or not structured enough for a particular student or just not a good fit then they are recommended to another place or outright rejected.
Yep. I know how that goes. If one Aspen program is not the greatest fit, there sure is another one (or two, or three) that is. And they usually even have the Admissions Director's home phone number, to further facilitate and expedite that up close and personal, customized Aspen Ed experience. :D
Yes, they do that and they also recommend outside the Aspen group if they feel it is a better fit then what their programs can provide. They are also quick to tell you if your child just doesnt fit their programs or requires further testing prior to acceptance.
Most of the places have each others phone numbers whether they are Aspen Ed or outside the group. Its very common
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Yes, they do that and they also recommend outside the Aspen group if they feel it is a better fit then what their programs can provide. They are also quick to tell you if your child just doesnt fit their programs or requires further testing prior to acceptance.
Most of the places have each others phone numbers whether they are Aspen Ed or outside the group. Its very common
Guest, since you seem to have so much expertise in the subject. Do these programs ever even consider suggesting to a parent that the help that they need can be provided at home with services that perhaps they haven't tried yet, that someone might not make a profit off of? And please offer an example (no names please of the person, but please share the names of the programs involved) if you do.
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If you just walk in off the street with your kid and a suitcase of cash you will be turned away. You wont even get past the receptionist. They will allow you to take a tour, walk the campus on your own if you like. We strolled around and spoke to various students so it is open like that.
As far as enrollment goes, if your child has not been evaluated they ask that you have your child independently evaluated by a licensed therapist or 24 hour observation at a local hospital, psych examination. The doctor at the hospital and the program will evaluate if the program is a good fit and if the child has a high probability of being successful in the selected program. You may apply for admission just prior to the evaluation, but will not get accepted until they talk with or get correspondence from a licensed doctor or therapist in your local area.
For wilderness I don’t believe it is a stringent. They need you to have a full physical exam by the childs pediatrician and a signed release into the program by the same doctor. You don’t need a psych exam as far as I am aware.
This is how it has worked to my knowledge. I would be interested to know the process that Nigel had to go thru. I understand that not all programs are the same and each may have a different process.
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Actually, from what I have read, Nigel is more the typical program parent . They are mostly the more concerned and involved parents. If they were not then their kids would be home running amok or dead. The kids are not there because they smoked some weed, skipped school a few times or the were the subject of abusive parents. The kids have serious issues which could not be solved locally thru the school counselor, local therapist, hospital etc. and the program is sometimes the last option.
They're paying you way too much.
lol.. re: program parents. thank god programs are here, because before that, teenagers were running amok and dying left and right. It's amazing we even have a working government full of people who survived their teenage years. They must have eaten their parents to carry on.
Not all programs will take your child just because you can demonstrate deep pockets and/or a willingness to pay. Many of these places have very strict and defined criteria for acceptance. They only accept the children that the particular program feels they have a high probability of helping. If the program is too structured or not structured enough for a particular student or just not a good fit then they are recommended to another place or outright rejected.
Id love to see the list on that fucker. Id love to hear from one person whose kid was turned down and NOT referred to a sister school. I tire of the same vague story and general nebulous cum-dribblings with no names, dates, etc. since you're merely vomiting up shitchunks about the policy of the anal-rape-palace you are shilling for as you post on this forum. I don't even bother to ask for this info any more, because it's like asking santa claus to give hitler a train for christmas. ("You have enough trains Adolph. How about a nice oven? Girls like a man who can cook.")
If you just walk in off the street with your kid and a suitcase of cash you will be turned away.
Really? Did that happen? If it hasnt, then it seriously needs to. Where's Tom Green when you need him? I totally want to play the game of how sketchy a parent and child could pretend to be before they are flatly refused with no referrals.
k. that's all the dance Im going to do on that.
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Id love to see the list on that fucker. Id love to hear from one person whose kid was turned down and NOT referred to a sister school. I tire of the same vague story and general nebulous cum-dribblings with no names, dates, etc. since you're merely vomiting up shitchunks about the policy of the anal-rape-palace you are shilling for as you post on this forum. I don't even bother to ask for this info any more, because it's like asking santa claus to give hitler a train for christmas. ("You have enough trains Adolph. How about a nice oven? Girls like a man who can cook.").
There were actually 2 kids who were turned down in my daughters group when they were attending SUWS of the Carolinas together. They didnt attend an Aspen Program... one ended up in Maine somewhere the other went down south (HLA?). So you see you are wrong, Castle.
So you see it is okay to be skeptical about what program parents have to say about their experiences? You need to be able to take the same skepticism when we view and critic your posts, as survivors, when you post them. Remember, no crying foul because we may think you are exaggerating or not being totally truthful with your stories and accounts of your time inside of the program.
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k.. just so I have the logistics straight... your daughter was in SUWS. Two other girls in SUWS got turned down by aspen. (Im assuming this is following the regular rigmarole of sending a kid to wilderness and then they put in placement.) They were referred to one of the aspen schools. (which one?) Got turned down. (was there any skuttlebutt about the reasons?) and ended up in maine (elan, maybe?) and the other in the south, mayble HLA.
And as for being wrong. I never said it never happened. I was pissing and moaning about how tired I am of hearing about this with such little evidence.
So, thanks for giving me something more than the party line. Im curious to know what this facility's reasons were, if you know. also, which facility was this?
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k.. just so I have the logistics straight... your daughter was in SUWS. Two other girls in SUWS got turned down by aspen. (Im assuming this is following the regular rigmarole of sending a kid to wilderness and then they put in placement.) They were referred to one of the aspen schools. (which one?) Got turned down. (was there any skuttlebutt about the reasons?) and ended up in maine (elan, maybe?) and the other in the south, mayble HLA.
And as for being wrong. I never said it never happened. I was pissing and moaning about how tired I am of hearing about this with such little evidence.
So, thanks for giving me something more than the party line. Im curious to know what this facility's reasons were, if you know. also, which facility was this?
Sorry to be so bitchy, castle. Its frustrating to listen to what people perceive to be the truth here sometimes…….. I think it was Elan, your right. There were six in her group at SUWS. 2 went home and there were 4 scheduled to go to ASR together. One was denied because they had a history of using knives the other one the parents never spoke about to any of us, just told us he couldn’t get in and was heading South. I recall HLA being mentioned but at the time it didn’t mean anything to me… never heard of the place. My daughter and her friend she met there were supposed to start ASR the same day but they asked that my daughter be evaluated first. So we took her to McLean’s in Boston (Belmont) where she stayed overnight for 3 days and then we were told she would be accepted.
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I'm sick of seeing people manipulated by this anonymous little twat. You're talking to THE WHO. What the fuck are you doing even bothering. He's lied about so much else on this thread and represents practically every single guest post -- talking to himself even. There's no point in talking to somebody like him. He's a liar and a paid program shill. You want to test whether a program will refuse a kid? Try calling some up with fake kids and ridiculous problems. Think about the kids who you were in program with... for being gay or what have you. Minor quirks. Interests the parents didn't like. One times screw ups we've all been through. Overreaction to that is a PARENTAL PROBLEM, *NOT* teen problems. Some could have used help but didn't' get it. The rest were just normal kids who ended up Munchhausen by proxy being drilled until they believed they had problems they didn't. The programs don't care as long as they make money. Whooter claims that doesn't apply to aspen programs, same as every program director in the past has lied about. Why would you believe him. Test it out.
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You want to test whether a program will refuse a kid? Try calling some up with fake kids and ridiculous problems.
Actually that is a good idea. Call them up and say you have a certified check made out to AEG for $100,000 to prepay for the year. Then tell them you found you kid smoking pot or you think he is gay and ask if he can start this Friday.
The answer you get would cool your heels....... and change your tune.
Try it out!!
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Sorry to be so bitchy, castle. Its frustrating to listen to what people perceive to be the truth here sometimes…….. I think it was Elan, your right. There were six in her group at SUWS. 2 went home and there were 4 scheduled to go to ASR together. One was denied because they had a history of using knives the other one the parents never spoke about to any of us, just told us he couldn’t get in and was heading South. I recall HLA being mentioned but at the time it didn’t mean anything to me… never heard of the place. My daughter and her friend she met there were supposed to start ASR the same day but they asked that my daughter be evaluated first. So we took her to McLean’s in Boston (Belmont) where she stayed overnight for 3 days and then we were told she would be accepted.
Thanks for answering castle's question, but you didn't quite answer mine. Where's the example of a program saying to a parent, "based on what you're explaining to us, your kid doesn't need residential care at all, here are some resources so that you can manage your child at home". Basically, what you're explaining is that there isn't enough documentation for a youth to enter a program so the program asks the parent to get one. Better than not asking for anything at all, but where's the attempt to divert from residential care entirely?
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I think it was Elan, your right.
Not terribly likely. Whooter has never (to my knowledge) messed in the Elan forum, and has never tried to rationalize that Elan was a reasonable choice for sending a kid to. It's not in his memory base of programs to bring up on the threads (which is closely related to the circle of fellow EdCons to please).
Whooter has, however, messed in the Hyde forum, and has tried to rationalize in threads (outside the Hyde forum) that Hyde School is the type of place he might consider a "good program," for example:
aineoni on Tue Sep 16, 2008
...You've been asked before to name just ONE so called "good program". You can't, so I really don't expect a definitive answer to this either, but I thought I might give it a shot.
TheWho on Tue Sep 16, 2008
I don't have any off hand.. maybe a hyde type place.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&p=315295#p315295 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&p=315295#p315295)[/list]
He posted this after I had brought up on several occasions (in discussion with him on the threads) the concern about increased suicide rates in the years immediately following such a program experience, my own knowledge thereof coming, of course, directly from Hyde.
As it would happen, a couple of months after Whooter posted the above, two recent students at Hyde did commit suicide in what appear to be unrelated incidents (Frank McGill (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27023) and Carol Anne Brown (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27330)). Apparently, these incidents haven't dampened his enthusiasm.
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I think it was Elan, your right.
Not terribly likely. Whooter has never (to my knowledge) messed in the Elan forum, and has never tried to rationalize that Elan was a reasonable choice for sending a kid to. It's not in his memory base of programs to bring up on the threads.
Whooter has, however, messed in the Hyde forum, and has tried to rationalize in threads (outside the Hyde forum) that Hyde School is the type of place he might consider a "good program," for example:
aineoni on Tue Sep 16, 2008
...You've been asked before to name just ONE so called "good program". You can't, so I really don't expect a definitive answer to this either, but I thought I might give it a shot.
TheWho on Tue Sep 16, 2008
I don't have any off hand.. maybe a hyde type place.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&p=315295#p315295 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16007&p=315295#p315295)[/list]
He posted this after I had brought up on several occasions (in discussion with him on the threads) the concern about increased suicide rates in the years immediately following such a program experience, my own knowledge thereof coming, of course, from Hyde.
As it would happen, a couple of months after Whooter posted the above, two recent students at Hyde did commit suicide in what appear to be unrelated incidents (Frank McGill (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27023) and Carol Anne Brown (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=27330)). This doesn't appear to have dampened his enthusiasm.
I am not sure what the point is, Ursus. Why would it matter if one of the kids from SUWS went to elan or Hyde? If they are both in Maine then it could have been either one. My daughter never resumed contact after that so there was no reason for me to remember, it was never brought up.
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Sorry to be so bitchy, castle. Its frustrating to listen to what people perceive to be the truth here sometimes…….. I think it was Elan, your right. There were six in her group at SUWS. 2 went home and there were 4 scheduled to go to ASR together. One was denied because they had a history of using knives the other one the parents never spoke about to any of us, just told us he couldn’t get in and was heading South. I recall HLA being mentioned but at the time it didn’t mean anything to me… never heard of the place. My daughter and her friend she met there were supposed to start ASR the same day but they asked that my daughter be evaluated first. So we took her to McLean’s in Boston (Belmont) where she stayed overnight for 3 days and then we were told she would be accepted.
Thanks for answering castle's question, but you didn't quite answer mine. Where's the example of a program saying to a parent, "based on what you're explaining to us, your kid doesn't need residential care at all, here are some resources so that you can manage your child at home". Basically, what you're explaining is that there isn't enough documentation for a youth to enter a program so the program asks the parent to get one. Better than not asking for anything at all, but where's the attempt to divert from residential care entirely?
Programs really don’t do "Managing your kid at home". Its not their strength. They are good at residential treatment. If your kid is not a good fit for their program they would recommend you see a local therapist/ counselor. Maybe see a specialist depending on what the issue was. They would expect you to be able to get advice at that level vs. from them.
See each program has its own entrance criteria which insures there is a high probability that the child will succeed within the program. If the child isn’t a good fit they may recommend another program or tell you your child just inst suitable for residential treatment and recommend local services.
I hope this is clearer, sorry if I was vague previously.
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Elan will take anyone.....with cash.
See thats not right. The places should at least require an evaluation from an independent source before taking a child. How does Elan determine at the onset whether the child has a good chance of succeeding or not unless the child is tested?
These are some of the areas where laws need to be applied IMO.
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@ Ursus : I remember the girl telling us that the place was more like a lock down and had fences to keep them in and much harsher that ASR and that it was in Maine. If that fits both Elan and Hyde than it could be either one.
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Elan will take anyone.....with cash.
See thats not right. The places should at least require an evaluation from an independent source before taking a child. How does Elan determine at the onset whether the child has a good chance of succeeding or not unless the child is tested?
These are some of the areas where laws need to be applied IMO.
This whole testing admissions thing is kind of ridiculous, anyway. I mean, what are they supposed to be screening for? Kids who will benefit from their practices?
It's no wonder they don't screen. they wouldn't have any students.
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Elan will take anyone.....with cash.
See thats not right. The places should at least require an evaluation from an independent source before taking a child. How does Elan determine at the onset whether the child has a good chance of succeeding or not unless the child is tested?
These are some of the areas where laws need to be applied IMO.
This whole testing admissions thing is kind of ridiculous, anyway. I mean, what are they supposed to be screening for? Kids who will benefit from their practices?
It's no wonder they don't screen. they wouldn't have any students.
Oh, sometimes they do screen alright. Depends a lot on who does the screening. As y'all must know by now, there is a sizable enough contingent within the psychological community that is very pro-program. Some of those folk are even on Advisory Boards for programs and/or EdCon organizations. Conflict of interest, anyone?
Take a look at this "independent source" involved in "evaluating" Whooter's "daughter":
So we took her to McLean's in Boston (Belmont) where she stayed overnight for 3 days and then we were told she would be accepted.
McLean Hospital (originally known as the "McLean Asylum for the Insane") is, as Whooter well knows, a feeder institution for Academy at Swift River. ASR Executive Director Frank Bartolomeo, in fact, came to ASR more or less directly from McLean himself. Children's Group Therapy Association, where he was co-chair for awhile, is also closely linked to McLean. CGTA appears to function more or less as a private group practice using personnel from McLean.
Closely linked to McLean are some personnel from Children's Hospital in Boston, just a stone's throw or two across the Charles River, specifically -- in this case -- Dr. Sharon Levy. Here is her brief bio from STICC (Saving Teens in Crisis Collaborative), an organization closely linked to Aspen Ed (ASR's parent company):
Sharon Levy, MD, MPH (http://http://www.savingteens.org/)
- Director of Pediatrics for the Adolescent Substance Abuse Program at Children's Hospital in Boston
[li]Associate Researcher, Center for Adolescent Substance Abuse Research
[/li][/list]
For those even the remotely bit curious, I'd highly recommend a visit to the STICC site to check out their "Our People" page. Be sure to scroll all the way down. HLA's favorite EdCons, anyone? Woodbury Reports, anyone?
Of course, the piece de la resistance is the intimate connection Whooter himself has to STICC. Savvy readers would do well to connect all the dots.
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Elan will take anyone.....with cash.
See thats not right. The places should at least require an evaluation from an independent source before taking a child. How does Elan determine at the onset whether the child has a good chance of succeeding or not unless the child is tested?
These are some of the areas where laws need to be applied IMO.
This whole testing admissions thing is kind of ridiculous, anyway. I mean, what are they supposed to be screening for? Kids who will benefit from their practices?
It's no wonder they don't screen. they wouldn't have any students.
Oh, sometimes they do screen alright. Depends a lot on who does the screening. As y'all must know by now, there is a sizable enough contingent within the psychological community that is very pro-program. Some of those folk are even on Advisory Boards for programs and/or EdCon organizations. Conflict of interest, anyone?
Take a look at this "independent source" involved in "evaluating" Whooter's "daughter":
So we took her to McLean's in Boston (Belmont) where she stayed overnight for 3 days and then we were told she would be accepted.
McLean Hospital (originally known as the "McLean Asylum for the Insane") is, as Whooter well knows, a feeder institution for Academy at Swift River. ASR Executive Director Frank Bartolomeo, in fact, came to ASR more or less directly from McLean himself. Children's Group Therapy Association, where he was co-chair for awhile, is also closely linked to McLean. CGTA appears to function more or less as a private group practice using personnel from McLean.
Closely linked to McLean are some personnel from Children's Hospital in Boston, just a stone's throw or two across the Charles River, specifically -- in this case -- Dr. Sharon Levy. Here is her brief bio from STICC (Saving Teens in Crisis Collaborative), an organization closely linked to Aspen Ed (ASR's parent company):
Sharon Levy, MD, MPH (http://http://www.savingteens.org/)
- Director of Pediatrics for the Adolescent Substance Abuse Program at Children's Hospital in Boston
[li]Associate Researcher, Center for Adolescent Substance Abuse Research
[/li][/list]
For those even the remotely bit curious, I'd highly recommend a visit to the STICC site to check out their "Our People" page. Be sure to scroll all the way down. HLA's favorite EdCons, anyone? Woodbury Reports, anyone?
Of course, the piece de la resistance is the intimate connection Whooter himself has to STICC. Savvy readers would do well to connect all the dots.
I had been mentioning this in the past (which everyone wanted to dismiss). There are very prominent people from the psycological community who are speaking out in favor of the advancement of Therapeutic schools and the successes they have had. I know of a few personally, locally, and from the University of Michigan. As You pointed out they are getting the support of pediatricians from places like Childrens Hospital also.
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This whole testing admissions thing is kind of ridiculous, anyway. I mean, what are they supposed to be screening for? Kids who will benefit from their practices?
There was a discussion awhile back about kids being placed into programs so that parents could get a break and go on vacation or because the kid was smoking pot or talking back...... if there were a screening process which was mandatory like a 3rd , independent, party were required to sign off on the placement like a therapist or school counselor then this would help to prevent placements for the wrong reasons and make room for the kids who would more benefit from the program.
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Elan will take anyone.....with cash.
See thats not right. The places should at least require an evaluation from an independent source before taking a child. How does Elan determine at the onset whether the child has a good chance of succeeding or not unless the child is tested?
These are some of the areas where laws need to be applied IMO.
This whole testing admissions thing is kind of ridiculous, anyway. I mean, what are they supposed to be screening for? Kids who will benefit from their practices?
It's no wonder they don't screen. they wouldn't have any students.
Oh, sometimes they do screen alright. Depends a lot on who does the screening. As y'all must know by now, there is a sizable enough contingent within the psychological community that is very pro-program. Some of those folk are even on Advisory Boards for programs and/or EdCon organizations. Conflict of interest, anyone?
Take a look at this "independent source" involved in "evaluating" Whooter's "daughter":
So we took her to McLean's in Boston (Belmont) where she stayed overnight for 3 days and then we were told she would be accepted.
McLean Hospital (originally known as the "McLean Asylum for the Insane") is, as Whooter well knows, a feeder institution for Academy at Swift River. ASR Executive Director Frank Bartolomeo, in fact, came to ASR more or less directly from McLean himself. Children's Group Therapy Association, where he was co-chair for awhile, is also closely linked to McLean. CGTA appears to function more or less as a private group practice using personnel from McLean.
Closely linked to McLean are some personnel from Children's Hospital in Boston, just a stone's throw or two across the Charles River, specifically -- in this case -- Dr. Sharon Levy. Here is her brief bio from STICC (Saving Teens in Crisis Collaborative), an organization closely linked to Aspen Ed (ASR's parent company):
Sharon Levy, MD, MPH (http://http://www.savingteens.org/)
- Director of Pediatrics for the Adolescent Substance Abuse Program at Children's Hospital in Boston
[li]Associate Researcher, Center for Adolescent Substance Abuse Research
[/li][/list]
For those even the remotely bit curious, I'd highly recommend a visit to the STICC site to check out their "Our People" page. Be sure to scroll all the way down. HLA's favorite EdCons, anyone? Woodbury Reports, anyone?
Of course, the piece de la resistance is the intimate connection Whooter himself has to STICC. Savvy readers would do well to connect all the dots.
Thanks for bringing this up, Ursus. I have pointed out this nexus before as well. TheWho is a complete shill-piece with a fabricated 'success' story used to lure in some more dum-dum parents.
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This whole testing admissions thing is kind of ridiculous, anyway. I mean, what are they supposed to be screening for? Kids who will benefit from their practices?
There was a discussion awhile back about kids being placed into programs so that parents could get a break and go on vacation or because the kid was smoking pot or talking back...... if there were a screening process which was mandatory like a 3rd , independent, party were required to sign off on the placement like a therapist or school counselor then this would help to prevent placements for the wrong reasons and make room for the kids who would more benefit from the program.
shouldnt that read: " better benefit from the program"?
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This whole testing admissions thing is kind of ridiculous, anyway. I mean, what are they supposed to be screening for? Kids who will benefit from their practices?
There was a discussion awhile back about kids being placed into programs so that parents could get a break and go on vacation or because the kid was smoking pot or talking back...... if there were a screening process which was mandatory like a 3rd , independent, party were required to sign off on the placement like a therapist or school counselor then this would help to prevent placements for the wrong reasons and make room for the kids who would more benefit from the program.
shouldnt that read: " better benefit from the program"?
We apologize for the low quality of shills you are currently experiencing. Once we begin receiving more income, we will be able to afford shills with a better grasp of the English language instead of hiring H1-Bs.
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Elan will take anyone.....with cash.
See thats not right. The places should at least require an evaluation from an independent source before taking a child. How does Elan determine at the onset whether the child has a good chance of succeeding or not unless the child is tested?
These are some of the areas where laws need to be applied IMO.
This whole testing admissions thing is kind of ridiculous, anyway. I mean, what are they supposed to be screening for? Kids who will benefit from their practices?
It's no wonder they don't screen. they wouldn't have any students.
Oh, sometimes they do screen alright. Depends a lot on who does the screening. As y'all must know by now, there is a sizable enough contingent within the psychological community that is very pro-program. Some of those folk are even on Advisory Boards for programs and/or EdCon organizations. Conflict of interest, anyone?
Take a look at this "independent source" involved in "evaluating" Whooter's "daughter":
So we took her to McLean's in Boston (Belmont) where she stayed overnight for 3 days and then we were told she would be accepted.
McLean Hospital (originally known as the "McLean Asylum for the Insane") is, as Whooter well knows, a feeder institution for Academy at Swift River. ASR Executive Director Frank Bartolomeo, in fact, came to ASR more or less directly from McLean himself. Children's Group Therapy Association, where he was co-chair for awhile, is also closely linked to McLean. CGTA appears to function more or less as a private group practice using personnel from McLean.
Closely linked to McLean are some personnel from Children's Hospital in Boston, just a stone's throw or two across the Charles River, specifically -- in this case -- Dr. Sharon Levy. Here is her brief bio from STICC (Saving Teens in Crisis Collaborative), an organization closely linked to Aspen Ed (ASR's parent company):
Sharon Levy, MD, MPH (http://http://www.savingteens.org/)
- Director of Pediatrics for the Adolescent Substance Abuse Program at Children's Hospital in Boston
[li]Associate Researcher, Center for Adolescent Substance Abuse Research
[/li][/list]
For those even the remotely bit curious, I'd highly recommend a visit to the STICC site to check out their "Our People" page. Be sure to scroll all the way down. HLA's favorite EdCons, anyone? Woodbury Reports, anyone?
Of course, the piece de la resistance is the intimate connection Whooter himself has to STICC. Savvy readers would do well to connect all the dots.
I had been mentioning this in the past (which everyone wanted to dismiss). There are very prominent people from the psycological community who are speaking out in favor of the advancement of Therapeutic schools and the successes they have had. I know of a few personally, locally, and from the University of Michigan. As You pointed out they are getting the support of pediatricians from places like Childrens Hospital also.
Nice attempt at evoking credibility, Whooter, and twisting the intent of my post to boot.
Here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27787&p=335077#p335077) is where Whooter first came across mention of the University of Michigan's influence on this industry (in the If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP thread, about two and a half months ago). That post read, in part:
...Well, I will not name names, but I can tell you that top Adolescent and child mental health professionals from the University of Michigan and affiliated colleges support, recommend and openly speak of Therapeutic Boarding Schools as viable solutions to families with children who fall within the “at risk” category.
The University of Michigan is also well respected in the mental health field. The people who recommend these places are not the back alley rubber stamp doctors that many think. If you look at the credentials of the directors of programs 20 years ago and then look today you will see that their education level has risen considerably are more respected by their colleagues and have moved towards a more clinical approach in their program modeling.
In order to effect change in this area you need to get the ear of some of these people at the top.[/list]
Despite what Whooter might have you believe, the person who posted that has some serious concerns about these kinds of places. Here is what s/he wrote earlier (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27787&p=335077#p335056):
...I'm a mental health professional. I do not refer to these "schools" nor do I refer to edcons who refer to these "schools." "First do no harm."
But, the truth is that some do, and not the unlicensed or un-credible, either. There are some pretty well-respected psychiatrists who recommend placements at these places, out of ignorance, as psy pointed out.
The first time I ran across these places I was actually hoping to find a placement for a couple of kids who imo were not mentally ill, but they were acting up in self-destructive ways. The parents were not abusive or even neglectful, just ill-equiped to handle some very bright, very sensitive kids who were not fitting in very well at the local school or in the local community. I knew all they needed was some time to grow up and a little bit of homework supervision. A colleague recommended a TBS. I can say that I when I looked into what these places were doing, I thought it would be damaging and recommended some normal boarding schools for them, the kind with a telephone in the room and christmas and spring and summer breaks. It turned out just fine.
That was when I first encountered this industry. Since then, though, I have really become aware than my colleagues do refer. And I'm really not talking about mail order psy D's here, either, I'm talking full on, highly ranked medical school graduates. This is the only reason I feel speaking to these kinds of groups would be useful.
As a mental health professional I wish they were better regulated and overseen though, mostly just because as the laws become harsher and harsher regarding holding parents legally responsible for adolescent acting out, these places become attractive to people who would never have considered them even twenty years ago. So, to me, it's very frightening. I'm glad you will be heard. I hope you will find a way to be heard even more often by people who make these kinds of choices when it comes to kids.[/list]
Incidentally, this person is a registered user (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=5556). Perhaps Nigel might want to consider contacting them for some more insight, although I'm not sure that they are still posting...
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I understood what you were talking about. The source you mentioned doesnt say they were from The University of Michigan. The person I know is from there. We also talked about McCleans in Belmont and Pediatricians from Childrens hospital who also recommend TBS's.
I am sure there are professionals who would not recommend sending a child to a therapeutic school, as the example you gace us. There are always people on both sides of the fence.
I think one area where we agree is that Nigel and other parents should gather as much information as possible from both sides.
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I understood what you were talking about. The source you mentioned doesnt say they were from The University of Michigan. The person I know is from there. We also talked about McCleans in Belmont and Pediatricians from Childrens hospital who also recommend TBS's.
I am sure there are professionals who would not recommend sending a child to a therapeutic school, as the example you gace us. There are always people on both sides of the fence.
I think one area where we agree is that Nigel and other parents should gather as much information as possible from both sides.
There are some in the healing professions who seem to forget that first and foremost credo:
"FIRST, DO NO HARM."[/list]
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There are some in the healing professions who seem to forget that first and foremost credo:
"FIRST, DO NO HARM."[/list]
I think they all remember and work to the same set of standards. Many feel doing nothing is doing harm, like myself. Therapeutic Boarding Schools dont do harm to people. If a therapist sent a child back to public school and he got beat up would the therapist be going against the "Credo Do no harm?"
Ursus, your perspective is bias. There are many ways to help a child and many ways they could be harmed by not acting correctly to protect them.
Think about it.
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Therapeutic Boarding Schools dont do harm to people.
Geez... now you are telling me what my experience was, eh? Some might call that sheer arrogance.
And no, not all therapists "work to the same set of standards" any more than all psychiatrists or all physicians work to the same set of standards. Maybe they are supposed to, but some of them are constrained by the group practice or HMO they're tied to, or heavily influenced by the philosophy of the particular medical school they went to and/or their thesis/fellowship/residency advisor. And... quite frankly, some of them have different economic backgrounds and present circumstances. Some of them even get quite significant kickbacks from pharmaceutical and prosthetic device companies, etc., not to mention pressure from certain companies regarding the tenuousness of their employment at whatever institution or organization they work for.
Why should the circumstances be any different for therapists, particularly since some of them work for and/or refer to these programs, enjoy certain perks from being on certain advisory boards, belonging to certain organizations, etc.?
But, I digress. Let's stick to the point. "First, Do No Harm." There are significant reasons why ethical therapists, who know what this industry entails (not all have bothered to examine it closely, believe it or not), refrain from making such referrals if at all possible, if ever they refer at all.
One of those reasons has to do with the simple fact that traumatic events often have aftereffects that are far more destructive and far longer lasting than the event, in and of itself, might logically appear to have. There are quite a lot of stories coming out of these places where people feel they have been traumatized by the experience, with some still traumatized, decades later.
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Therapeutic Boarding Schools dont do harm to people.
Geez... now you are telling me what my experience was, eh? Some might call that sheer arrogance.
See this is how I get mis quoted. I never referred to your experience anymore than if you said TBS’s harm people that you were being arrogant and trying to tell my daughter what her experience was. I am not trying to be arrogant here. It is a fact that Therapeutic Schools help people, That fact we cannot get around. We are also aware that they harm people as you can attest to. What is the balance? Thats an unknown at this point. How can we tell which person will get harmed and which will get helped?
The therapists and advisors that recommend placement are working to the same high standards that the ones that do not. They just see their treatment options differently or believe in differing treatment plans, but they all work to the same standard of “First, do no harm” whether they place or not. If a therapist recommends against placing a child in a TBS it doesn’t mean he/she has a lower standard or doesn’t want the best for the child even though it may be the best fit for him. The therapist might think a different option is more beneficial. This other option may still fall under “First, do no harm” in his or her eyes.
You may see several doctors for a cancer treatment and some may recommend different treatment plans from each other. It doesn’t mean they have varying levels of ethics.
So yes I do agree with you that some doctors are on the take and others are not, but they all pretty much feel they are making the best decision for their patients.
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Sorry, got the quotes wrong on previous post...
I wrote:
Therapeutic Boarding Schools dont do harm to people.
Geez... now you are telling me what my experience was, eh? Some might call that sheer arrogance.
See this is how I get mis quoted. I never referred to your experience anymore than if you said TBS’s harm people that you were being arrogant and trying to tell my daughter what her experience was. I am not trying to be arrogant here. It is a fact that Therapeutic Schools help people, That fact we cannot get around. We are also aware that they harm people as you can attest to. What is the balance? Thats an unknown at this point. How can we tell which person will get harmed and which will get helped?
The therapists and advisors that recommend placement are working to the same high standards that the ones that do not. They just see their treatment options differently or believe in differing treatment plans, but they all work to the same standard of “First, do no harm” whether they place or not. If a therapist recommends against placing a child in a TBS it doesn’t mean he/she has a lower standard or doesn’t want the best for the child even though it may be the best fit for him. The therapist might think a different option is more beneficial. This other option may still fall under “First, do no harm” in his or her eyes.
You may see several doctors for a cancer treatment and some may recommend different treatment plans from each other. It doesn’t mean they have varying levels of ethics.
So yes I do agree with you that some doctors are on the take and others are not, but they all pretty much feel they are making the best decision for their patients.[/quote]
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Therapeutic Boarding Schools dont do harm to people.
Geez... now you are telling me what my experience was, eh? Some might call that sheer arrogance.
See this is how I get mis quoted.
Classic exchange with TheWho. Whooter makes a blanket statement with no proof. Someone objects, based on their personal experience. Whooter backpedals and claims he was misquoted.
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Therapeutic Boarding Schools dont do harm to people.
Geez... now you are telling me what my experience was, eh? Some might call that sheer arrogance.
See this is how I get mis quoted.
Classic exchange with TheWho. Whooter makes a blanket statement with no proof. Someone objects, based on their personal experience. Whooter backpedals and claims he was misquoted.
This is funny....I may get accused of derailing here but... here goes:
No, what you mis read was Ursus took my quote as me trying to tell him how his experience was in the program. When all I was saying is TBS's dont harm people... not meaning him personally.
Lets look at it a different way. Lets say I stated "A nice walk in the park doesnt harm anyone" and someone objected and said I was being arrogant because they were mugged in the park once. Sure people get harmed everywhere. I am not trying to say they dont, but TBS's are designed to help people and parks are designed to be a safe place for the public to gather and utilize. But at the same time people do get hurt there, Ursus just took it the wrong way. It is difficult to communicate via forum sometimes and this is an example of how I have been mis quoted in the past.
hope that clears it up!! Did I back peddle ? lol
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No, what you mis read was Ursus took my quote as me trying to tell him how his experience was in the program. When all I was saying is TBS's dont harm people... not meaning him personally.
When you say TBSs don't harm people you are saying TBSs don't harm people. But they do. If you are saying Ursus doesn't count, whether he was harmed or not, because he's a bear, that's a different story.
Lets look at it a different way. Lets say I stated "A nice walk in the park doesnt harm anyone" and someone objected and said I was being arrogant because they were mugged in the park once. Sure people get harmed everywhere. I am not trying to say they dont, but TBS's are designed to help people and parks are designed to be a safe place for the public to gather and utilize. But at the same time people do get hurt there, Ursus just took it the wrong way. It is difficult to communicate via forum sometimes and this is an example of how I have been mis quoted in the past.
Are you saying being at a TBS is like a "walk in the park?" Now I've heard everything.
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No, what you mis read was Ursus took my quote as me trying to tell him how his experience was in the program. When all I was saying is TBS's dont harm people... not meaning him personally.
When you say TBSs don't harm people you are saying TBSs don't harm people. But they do. If you are saying Ursus doesn't count, whether he was harmed or not, because he's a bear, that's a different story.
Lets look at it a different way. Lets say I stated "A nice walk in the park doesnt harm anyone" and someone objected and said I was being arrogant because they were mugged in the park once. Sure people get harmed everywhere. I am not trying to say they dont, but TBS's are designed to help people and parks are designed to be a safe place for the public to gather and utilize. But at the same time people do get hurt there, Ursus just took it the wrong way. It is difficult to communicate via forum sometimes and this is an example of how I have been mis quoted in the past.
Are you saying being at a TBS is like a "walk in the park?" Now I've heard everything.
Thats Funny!! I didnt see the connection. I guess some programs are "A walk in the park" compared to others.... and no I wasnt discriminating against Ursus because he is a bear lol. Thats all we need is to gain a PETA mentality here.
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I'm sick of seeing people manipulated by this anonymous little twat. You're talking to THE WHO. What the fuck are you doing even bothering. He's lied about so much else on this thread and represents practically every single guest post -- talking to himself even. There's no point in talking to somebody like him. He's a liar and a paid program shill. You want to test whether a program will refuse a kid? Try calling some up with fake kids and ridiculous problems. Think about the kids who you were in program with... for being gay or what have you. Minor quirks. Interests the parents didn't like. One times screw ups we've all been through. Overreaction to that is a PARENTAL PROBLEM, *NOT* teen problems. Some could have used help but didn't' get it. The rest were just normal kids who ended up Munchhausen by proxy being drilled until they believed they had problems they didn't. The programs don't care as long as they make money. Whooter claims that doesn't apply to aspen programs, same as every program director in the past has lied about. Why would you believe him. Test it out.
He may be all of that, but for what it's worth, I think he is probably the best troll this forum has ever had. (since ive been here, anyway) I mean, he has seriously trolled the fuck out of all of you suckers. Half the people on this forum are jumping at ghosts, here's a who, there's a who. A fucking bounty was put out on his identity. (Possible I'll get a lengthy response as to the legitimacy of *that* endeavor. Don't bother. I don't care.) Any insult thrown at him was rebuffed by a curve ball that threw everyone into a tizzy. The threads would go into the hundreds, and they are still going. Not only that, he was smart and knew how to spell. In retrospect, it was downright beautiful.
It's pretty easy to troll this place, and his posts were a bit on the tl;dr for my tastes (but so are mine), but man, he has seriously pwned all of you.
The only thing that would make his trollery better would be if, in reality, he doesn't even have a kid and has no association with programs. Oh man, if that were true... :tup:
So... am I talking to the who?
Do I motherfucking care?
Nope.
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Ha,Ha,Ha...
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^^RobertBruce^^ Trying to provoke TheWho. Who ignore him please!!!!!
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Thought I would let you know how things are going. My phone call yesterday was cancelled. My son, along with a group of other boys on his team were not behaving as expected. Their team was put into a "lockdown" where they have to stay in their dorm and talk through the problems. My son's therapist has written me an e-mail stating that my son is doing OK with it all and we will talk again next Monday. On one hand, I was a little upset that I couldn't talk to my son, but I also realize that when rules are broken, there are consequences. I asked about the "group problem solving" that they did and nothing raised any concern on my part. I will definitely ask my son about it next Monday. As I have stated before, this is one of the toughest things I have ever had to go through as a parent (and I'm sure it is extremely hard on my son). I feel like I have no control over what is going on (but at the same time, when my son was at home we were definitely not doing well and he had stopped listening to anything I had to say----so essentially I haven't had any control for a while). My next visit to the ranch is in October. I will keep reporting and asking for advice.
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Red Flag #1: Restricting Communication with Parents
Nigel, seriously, I understand you're looking for advice here (?) and want to report what's happening, but, the single-most serious, biggest identifier, ultimate red-flag of any program is to restrict communication with the kid's parents. This alone should spur you to get your kid out of there right now.
There is no therapeutic value in, nor would any moral/professional therapist allow, restriction of communication with a parent as punishment or for any other reason, period.
Nigel, I hate to say it, but there's one born every minute, and right now is your time.
Aspen is well known for killing kids in their care, and you are seeing the groundwork being laid right now for big-time psychological damage to your kid. Even worse, Aspen hopes to disconnect you from junior so they can control the dialogue and so they can make up the 'facts' should something terrible happen to your boy.
The last thing you want to hear from Aspen: 'We just don't know, sir. He was fine earlier this morning, but...we're so very sorry.'
People here have given you good advice and, more importantly, hipped you to the really dangerous warning signs that your son is being abused, but here you are, acting like nothing is wrong. You're either stupid, ignorant or just don't care.
Just remember, your child will pay the price for your inaction. And you will never, ever forgive yourself or forget.
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Thought I would let you know how things are going. My phone call yesterday was cancelled. My son, along with a group of other boys on his team were not behaving as expected. Their team was put into a "lockdown" where they have to stay in their dorm and talk through the problems. My son's therapist has written me an e-mail stating that my son is doing OK with it all and we will talk again next Monday. On one hand, I was a little upset that I couldn't talk to my son, but I also realize that when rules are broken, there are consequences. I asked about the "group problem solving" that they did and nothing raised any concern on my part. I will definitely ask my son about it next Monday. As I have stated before, this is one of the toughest things I have ever had to go through as a parent (and I'm sure it is extremely hard on my son). I feel like I have no control over what is going on (but at the same time, when my son was at home we were definitely not doing well and he had stopped listening to anything I had to say----so essentially I haven't had any control for a while). My next visit to the ranch is in October. I will keep reporting and asking for advice.
Hello Nigel, thanks for updating us. I wouldn’t be concerned; this is all part of his stay there. He is testing his boundaries and earning the consequences which is very healthy for him. Part of the punishment is the realization that the consequences of his actions do not only affect him but also affects others around him as well… (meaning is actions are affecting his family by not being able to speak with you, nor you to him) and they may be affecting the other kids in the group as well.
I think it is great that his therapist is involved and took the time to contact you to give you some insight into what was going on and allow you to get some answers.
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There is no therapeutic value in, nor would any moral/professional therapist allow, restriction of communication with a parent as punishment or for any other reason, period.
Something I have noticed......
Many people here have the misconception that in Therapeutic boarding Schools that therapy takes place 24/7. It does not. There is a time for therapy, yes, but not every aspect of the program is designed to be therapeutic, i.e. eating, sleeping, taking a shower, timeouts, punishments, homework, schooling etc. When a child breaks a rule at home and as a consequence he/she cannot go out on Friday night or has their phone restricted the consequences are not designed to be therapeutic.. they are just consequences. Its a Behavior Modification tool which is used throught a persons life at home. I understand it is difficult to separate the two sometimes.
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0/10
LOL @ everyone who thought Nigel is real
LOL harder @ everyone who still thinks so
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Red Flag #1: Restricting Communication with Parents
Nigel, seriously, I understand you're looking for advice here (?) and want to report what's happening, but, the single-most serious, biggest identifier, ultimate red-flag of any program is to restrict communication with the kid's parents. This alone should spur you to get your kid out of there right now.
There is no therapeutic value in, nor would any moral/professional therapist allow, restriction of communication with a parent as punishment or for any other reason, period.
Nigel, I hate to say it, but there's one born every minute, and right now is your time.
Aspen is well known for killing kids in their care, and you are seeing the groundwork being laid right now for big-time psychological damage to your kid. Even worse, Aspen hopes to disconnect you from junior so they can control the dialogue and so they can make up the 'facts' should something terrible happen to your boy.
The last thing you want to hear from Aspen: 'We just don't know, sir. He was fine earlier this morning, but...we're so very sorry.'
People here have given you good advice and, more importantly, hipped you to the really dangerous warning signs that your son is being abused, but here you are, acting like nothing is wrong. You're either stupid, ignorant or just don't care.
Just remember, your child will pay the price for your inaction. And you will never, ever forgive yourself or forget.
Friend, do you truly think these "parents" care that they damage their kids beyond repair by financing their abduction and due processless imprisonment and torture?
And do you really think NIGEL is an actual parent? My sources say “troll.”
If by some chance it’s real, it’s morally deranged and dialogue with it promotes nothing. (it doesn't deserve the pronoun afforded to humans)
Not only is severing contact from a parent a red flag it’s, in itself, emotional abuse. Demanding a young person to accept that they are “too bad" to speak to their own parents is a warped act of psychological abuse and degradation
http://eqi.org/eabuse1.htm[/url]"]
"Denying:
Withholding is another form of denying. Withholding includes refusing to listen, refusing to communicate, and emotionally withdrawing as punishment.
Denying and other forms of emotional abuse can cause you to lose confidence in your most valuable survival tool: your own mind.
"Emotional Blackmail"
Denying a person's emotional needs, especially when they feel that need the most, and done with the intent of hurting, punishing or humiliating
This could include threats to end the relationship, totally reject or abandon you, giving you the the "cold shoulder," or using other fear tactics to control you..
Of course, NIGEL supposedly paid for his son to be imprisoned and abducted. So, assuming it's real, this emotional abuse is small potatoes compared to its biggest spud
Here's a bit on NIGEL
In criminal law, kidnapping is the taking away or asportation of a person against the person's will, usually to hold the person in false imprisonment.Unlawful imprisonment; classification
A. A person commits unlawful imprisonment by knowingly restraining another person. ..
Fun for ya to impersonate a violent criminal, or are you, in fact, a violent criminal? ( On fornits, discussion group for survivors and perpetrators of abduction and imprisonment in the name of help, you never know)
More on Nigel:
http://www.findcounseling.com/journal/c ... abuse.html (http://www.findcounseling.com/journal/child-abuse/emotional-abuse.html)
Inappropriate Control
Over control robs children of opportunities for self-assertion and self-development by preventing them from exploring the world around them.
Isolating
Isolating a child, or cutting them off from normal social experiences, prevents the child from forming friendships and can lead to depression. Isolating a child seriously impairs their intellectual, emotional and social development. Isolating is often accompanied by other forms of emotional abuse and often physical abuse.
Rejecting
When a caretaker rejects a child, the caretaker is negating the child's self-image, showing the child that he or she has no value. Children who are rejected from the start by their caretakers develop a range of disturbed self-soothing behaviors. An infant who is rejected has almost no chance of developing into a healthy adult.[how about a teen?]
Terrorizing
Terrorizing, like harrassment, evokes a stress response in children. Repeated evocation of the stress response alters the child physically, lowering their ability to fight off disease, increasing their risk for many stress-related ailments. Aside from the physical affects, a child living in terror has no opportunities to develop anything other than unhealthy and anti-social survival skills.
Emotional abuse is the core of all forms of abuse, and the long-term effects of child abuse and neglect in general stem mainly from the emotional aspects of abuse. Actually, it is the psychological aspect of most abusive behaviors that defines them as abusive. Think of a child breaking his or her arm. If the arm was broken while riding a bicycle and trying to jump a ramp, the child will heal and recover psychologically, perhaps strengthening his or her character and learning valuable life-lessons in the process by overcoming obstacles with the support of his or her caregivers and friends. If the same injury occurs because a parent twists the child's arm behind his or her back in a rage or throws the child down the stairs, the child will heal physically, but may never heal psychologically. In thinking of sexual abuse, think of a child being examined by a doctor - doctors touch children's genitals routinely in physical examinations without damaging children in any way. But think of the same contact from a sexualized older acquaintance. It is clear that the damage from fondling the child is psychological and emotional. Now think of a child who lives with a parent who terrifies the child but who has just enough control (IT'S ALL ABOUT CONTROL) over him- or herself to refrain from injuring the child physically in a way that will draw questions. That child is suffering the same devastating abuse as the children in the examples above, but often nothing can be done about it.
Despite the fact that the long-term harm from abuse is most often caused by the emotional aspects of the abuse, emotional abuse is the most difficult of the forms of abuse to substantiate and prosecute. Actual physical injury is often required before the authorities can step in and assist a child. Also, the effects of abuse are very similar to symptoms of many childhood mental and physical disorders, which makes identifying emotionally abused children difficult.
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Thought I would let you know how things are going. My phone call yesterday was cancelled. My son, along with a group of other boys on his team were not behaving as expected. Their team was put into a "lockdown" where they have to stay in their dorm and talk through the problems. My son's therapist has written me an e-mail stating that my son is doing OK with it all and we will talk again next Monday. On one hand, I was a little upset that I couldn't talk to my son, but I also realize that when rules are broken, there are consequences.
Punishment for bad behavior, sure, but doesn't it seem to you like cutting off a phone call is an awfully strange punishment?
I asked about the "group problem solving" that they did and nothing raised any concern on my part. I will definitely ask my son about it next Monday.
My fear is that if there is something going on that he might not feel free to tell you about it. "His side" of the story, if it differs from the program's, is likely something he's not a liberty to share on a monitored phone call (and something he might not tell you anyway since he knows you'll repeat it to the program). He'll know that if he tries to tell you something it'll get labeled as a "manipulation" and that you'll automatically believe the program over him. In the program I was in you learned not to bother trying to tell your parents anything since they wouldn't believe you and to just try and pretend like everything was all right in order to progress in the program and possibly eventually leave. I was told on intake that I could progress as fast as I did my "level requirements". Once I did those I was told that I hadn't spent enough time. In truth the requirements for advancement were entirely subjective and seemingly random. I eventually learned level requirements really didn't matter much since the program was obviously intent on keeping kids there as long as possible regardless of however good their behavior was.
Is Aspen Ranch like that? I can't say for sure. What I can say is that you can't/won't know until, like my mom, you're crying to your son about how sorry you were you ever sent him to such a place and that you "just didn't know". Fortunately or unfortunately for you, you're getting warned and educated so if ever you are in that place where you have to apologize, you won't be able to claim ignorance. IF it comes to that, for your sake I hope your son forgives you. Splitting families apart is probably the worst element of many of these places.
I just have a hard time seeing why you think these risks are necessary to help him. In Europe where I am right now they don't have these programs and yet parents find ways of dealing with their kids' problems.
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My son, along with a group of other boys on his team were not behaving as expected.
What in sam hill does that mean?
I also realize that when rules are broken, there are consequences.
k... What was the rule that he broke?
I would greatly appreciate it if it's Nigel who answers this, thank you.
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My son, along with a group of other boys on his team were not behaving as expected. Their team was put into a "lockdown" where they have to stay in their dorm and talk through the problems.
Forcing group punishment on minors is illegal, whether forced by "school" or "residential treatment center"--whichever Aspen Ranch is pretending to be. Real or not, NIGEL is creating a trail for prosecution for any willing party.
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I will answer as many questions as possible. First of all, to those that think I am a "troll", I probably can't change your mind, but if you read my posts I think you will see that I am not. For those of you that are calling me out and telling me that I am abusing my son, I am reading your posts (sometimes twice) and I hope you believe me when I say I have thought those same things about myself at times. But....as I have said before, if I didn't do something drastic, I am pretty sure my son would be dead at this point. As for the cancellation of the phone call being punishment, it might seem that way, but the reason behind the cancellation was that my son's therapist was with the boys all day Tuesday and Wednesday in group sessions. The rules that were broken (I probably used a bad choice of words here) were fairly serious. There was some physical abuse (punches being thrown) and also some boys hyperventilating until they passed out. These are obviously both safety issues and I truly believe that the people at Aspen Ranch are trying their best to make it a safe environment. I will write more later and try to answer all of your questions. Once again, I am not an advocate for the Aspen Ranch, just a parent who unfortunately had to make the most difficult decision of my life---sending my son away. Whether or not this was a wise decision is up for debate, but it was something I felt we had to do. I am posting on here for many different reasons, but the most important one is so that I can hear all sides so that the next very important decision I make (when to bring my son home) will be the right one. I will post more later.
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I will answer as many questions as possible. First of all, to those that think I am a "troll", I probably can't change your mind, but if you read my posts I think you will see that I am not. For those of you that are calling me out and telling me that I am abusing my son, I am reading your posts (sometimes twice) and I hope you believe me when I say I have thought those same things about myself at times. But....as I have said before, if I didn't do something drastic, I am pretty sure my son would be dead at this point. As for the cancellation of the phone call being punishment, it might seem that way, but the reason behind the cancellation was that my son's therapist was with the boys all day Tuesday and Wednesday in group sessions. The rules that were broken (I probably used a bad choice of words here) were fairly serious. There was some physical abuse (punches being thrown) and also some boys hyperventilating until they passed out. These are obviously both safety issues and I truly believe that the people at Aspen Ranch are trying their best to make it a safe environment. I will write more later and try to answer all of your questions. Once again, I am not an advocate for the Aspen Ranch, just a parent who unfortunately had to make the most difficult decision of my life---sending my son away. Whether or not this was a wise decision is up for debate, but it was something I felt we had to do. I am posting on here for many different reasons, but the most important one is so that I can hear all sides so that the next very important decision I make (when to bring my son home) will be the right one. I will post more later.
^^^ The who, or its equivalent, backpedalling.
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My son, along with a group of other boys on his team were not behaving as expected. Their team was put into a "lockdown" where they have to stay in their dorm and talk through the problems.
Forcing group punishment on minors is illegal, whether forced by "school" or "residential treatment center"--whichever Aspen Ranch is pretending to be. Real or not, NIGEL is creating a trail for prosecution for any willing party.
No its not. Everyone is throwing up smoke screens here. There are groups of kids who are singled out for detention and punished in local schools every day. Why is it that you post here and continuously state that things are illegal but not one reference is ever given?
Can you supply a link to the law that supports your argument?
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There was some physical abuse (punches being thrown) and also some boys hyperventilating until they passed out.
ok... well... maybe I am an old fogey or something and things have gotten more uptight these days, but Im not really sure how getting into a fistfight is considered serious or severe. And the latter? psh. I'm surprised they didn't get laughed at by all the other kids for being such idiots.
Severe or not, the fact that you couldn't talk to your son for this is pretty pathetic. Especially since you just rolled over and let them say you couldn't. Did you not have an urge to take your kid to task for being such a dickhead? Didn't you want to grab him by the ear and say "What the hell was that all about?" Isn't that your job as a father? Did you trade in your balls for tuition?
Is this the kind of stuff that people are afraid will put someone in jail or dead?
it's official... the world has turned pussy...
He's your son. You're his dad. Nobody can tell you when you can or can't see him, unless you roll over and let them.
Did you honestly and truly want to see your son? Was it a relief when they said you couldn't?
I really can sympathize with parents who have impossible kids, or who are scared for their kids. I wouldn't have known what to do with me for certain, because I was a crazy asshole. Programs promise a lot, so I can see the desire to send your kid there, hoping maybe things can get worked out, because you are at a total loss and dont have an answer.
But to just LET someone tell you that you can't see your own child?
I just don't get that, and I have no respect for it.
There is just NO FUCKING EXCUSE... unless you just don't want to see them.
Do you love you son, Nigel? Maybe you should go up there whether they say its ok or not, and tell him in person. It will speak volumes, especially if he knows that Aspen doesn't approve.
I guarantee you... he will remember you did that for the rest of his life, and will probably do a hell of a lot more for your relationship than anything Aspen can do.
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None of us were on the phone call with the therapist. Only Nigel was. If he felt he needed to speak to his son on the issue he could have pushed for it. But he may have received the info he needed from the childs therapist. He has the option to speak to him on Monday and get his side of the dispute then.
Lets not judge his decision. He knows his son best, if something smelled fishy he would know.
Hitting another person is a very big deal. I have seen people get very upset on this site for just restraining or holding a kid with no hitting involved at all.
Lets wait and see what the facts are.
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I don't think I could have said it any more eloquently than TAC.
Communication with parents should never be used as a punishment, period. That's not to say that it isn't a common practice in programs of all kinds, but it is to say that if it's not the #1 red flag of a problem program, then it's pretty high up there. And it's less a matter of what your son is going to say when he's on the phone, it's about your role as a parent. It shouldn't be up to the program to punish your son, that's your job as his parent. And if the program were doing their job, they would be preparing both you and him for the inevitability of how you plan on disciplining him when he does come home.
Again, ditto TAC.
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Hitting another person is a very big deal. I have seen people get very upset on this site for just restraining or holding a kid with no hitting involved at all.
Lets wait and see what the facts are.
Ok.. allow me to grok this completely, here. You're comparing two teens getting into a fistfight to someone in a facility being restrained and manhandled by the people in charge of them who are supposed to be responsible for their safety.
There's this strange obscure thing called an authority dynamic...maybe you've heard of it.
Besides, its kind of hard to fight back when you have several people on top of you and you cant even fight for yourself. Whether that happens in an institution or in the real world, that IS a big deal. Group fights are absolutely a big deal.
Two kids duking it out? meh.
But you know what? If you think its serious, that's totally cool with me. Seriously, it is. Getting into a fight sucks. Ive been on both ends of a flying punch.
My issue is the fact that a parent says its ok when someone says they cant see their kid. They allow someone else, who isnt even a parent, to be a mediator.
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I don't think I could have said it any more eloquently than TAC.
Communication with parents should never be used as a punishment, period. That's not to say that it isn't a common practice in programs of all kinds, but it is to say that if it's not the #1 red flag of a problem program, then it's pretty high up there. And it's less a matter of what your son is going to say when he's on the phone, it's about your role as a parent. It shouldn't be up to the program to punish your son, that's your job as his parent. And if the program were doing their job, they would be preparing both you and him for the inevitability of how you plan on disciplining him when he does come home.
Again, ditto TAC.
It sounds like many here are just trying to turn Nigel against Aspen Ranch. Its really not that big a deal...
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I don't think I could have said it any more eloquently than TAC.
Communication with parents should never be used as a punishment, period. That's not to say that it isn't a common practice in programs of all kinds, but it is to say that if it's not the #1 red flag of a problem program, then it's pretty high up there. And it's less a matter of what your son is going to say when he's on the phone, it's about your role as a parent. It shouldn't be up to the program to punish your son, that's your job as his parent. And if the program were doing their job, they would be preparing both you and him for the inevitability of how you plan on disciplining him when he does come home.
Again, ditto TAC.
It sounds like many here are just trying to turn Nigel against Aspen Ranch. Its really not that big a deal...
Once you figure out what this "it" is, please feel free to educate.
Although I don't give a clod of goo what Nigel's relationship is with aspen. I just can't figure out these people who let others dictate when they are allowed to be a parent again.
Good luck after graduation, Nigel. Hope it works out.
Seriously
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I forgot to answer one of Psy's questions about the levels. My son has complained about the decisions regarding advancement in the levels as being subjective. He claims that because a certain individual hates him, he will never advance in his levels. There is some truth in this (and thus a catch 22). While there are requirements to pass through the levels, the therapists make the final decision. For the last 3 years, whenever my son has had trouble accomplishing something, he has always blamed others. I will continue to encourage my son to figure out a way to make this work (he is going to have to deal with all sorts of people throughout his life, and he can't constantly blame his failures on the fact that someone doesn't like him). That being said, I will continue to monitor the situation and see if there is some merit to his complaints.
In answer to those that have asked "do I love my son?"----YES. I made this decision out of love, but I am not blind to the fact that this might have been a bad decision, thus I am on this forum asking for opinions. I am sure that those that have read my posts can tell that I deeply love my son. I will post again next Monday after I talk to my son.
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I forgot to answer one of Psy's questions about the levels. My son has complained about the decisions regarding advancement in the levels as being subjective. He claims that because a certain individual hates him, he will never advance in his levels. There is some truth in this (and thus a catch 22). While there are requirements to pass through the levels, the therapists make the final decision.
Is it the therapists who make that decision or the program owner, because there's a big difference. If it's the program owner ultimately "ok"ing or vetoing advancement it leaves a much greater possibility that there is a financial motive for keeping the kids back.
For the last 3 years, whenever my son has had trouble accomplishing something, he has always blamed others.
And don't you think they know that? They know that he can complain about all anything he wants to and you won't believe him because he's "cried wolf" in the past. Well. Sometimes the wolf is actually there. If the boy is complaining about not advancing in the program maybe, just maybe, it's actually not his fault. Maybe just maybe he's acting out (if he is) because he sees it doesn't matter. You could see it as an act of protest in such a case.
Let me ask you this: does the program encourage you to tell your son that he is not coming home until he learns to "follow the program"? Is it possible that coaching is just as much as getting you to commit to the program as it is about removing any hope from your son?
I will continue to encourage my son to figure out a way to make this work (he is going to have to deal with all sorts of people throughout his life, and he can't constantly blame his failures on the fact that someone doesn't like him).
And if he's telling the truth you're emphasizing a teaching common in may programs: everything in life that happens to your is your fault. What do you think your statements are going to make your child feel if it is genuinely not his fault he's not advancing.
That being said, I will continue to monitor the situation and see if there is some merit to his complaints.
Which is ultimately something you can't know for sure until your son is out of the program and no longer under potential duress. What I would suggest is to keep posting and look into how other programs have operated to see whether or not Aspen Ranch fits the pattern. Check the Benchmark site in my signature for example, or look at ISACcorp's warning signs.
Either way you look at it. If he's not making progress in the program what's the point of keeping him there? I guarantee he'll be grateful at the very least if you take him out.
In answer to those that have asked "do I love my son?"----YES. I made this decision out of love, but I am not blind to the fact that this might have been a bad decision, thus I am on this forum asking for opinions. I am sure that those that have read my posts can tell that I deeply love my son. I will post again next Monday after I talk to my son.
I don't doubt you love your son for one minute and I'm glad you love him enough to actually investigate both sides. Just keep an open yet cynical mind to all sides, weighing risk along with possibility. If there's one thing I can't emphasize enough like the others here is to *never* accept a refusal to speak to your son on any basis. Insist to speak with him without monitoring and see what happens. For that matter, if you want to try and experiment, carefully suggest that you're considering removing him and see the ensuing scare tactics they'll pull with you. Ask yourself whether their responses are borne out of genuine fear for your child or an underlying profit margin.
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No, what he forgot to do is log back in. :beat:
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In answer to those that have asked "do I love my son?"----YES.
I believe you. (hopefully this is you. no sign in.)
I guess it just would be nice if you bothered to visit him on your own terms instead of aspens. This means, when you wanted to.
Means a lot more to a kid than just "monitoring."
I certainly don't think any one of us could convince you to pull your kid from aspen, and I wouldn't even try, cause its a sucker bet. But maybe if you would consider actually putting on your dad boots and set the agenda for when YOU are going to see YOUR SON, well, maybe it would remind him that you are the one who is Dad, not aspen.
You are still dad, right? They didn't have you sign over custody, did they? (not a sarcastic question. there are places that do this.)
Scenario thingie below:
About three months after I arrived at program I got into trouble... quite a bit, actually. I got all emo and cut up my arm and was put on isolation/restriction for 14 days. There is no doubt that this was not only a.) stupid, it was also b.) lame. This was about two days before parent visits. In fact, my parents had already arrived in Sandpoint, Idaho and a staff had to head them off at the pass to tell them to go home because they couldn't see me. (After my dad flew all the way from texas and my mom flew all the way from new york.) And they did. They turned around and went home.
The staff told me (well, screamed at me) in a rap how disappointed and sad my parents were that they couldn't come visit, (I believe the word they used was "crushed") so I in no way believed that they didn't love me, and I felt a lot of pain about the fact that they were hurt. (really, I did)
Even though I was green-eyed that I was stuck digging in the dirt, moving around rocks and restricted to my booth writing list after list about what a horrible person I was, while other kids were hanging with their parents, I really didn't hold anything against my parents for their acquiescence. Part of the reason I got into trouble to begin with was to avoid seeing them, since it would have been the first time since I got sent up, and I wasn't too thrilled to be with them.
BUT, it certainly sent a message.
And the message was:
Your parents are now your parents in name only. You're here now, and your ass belongs to us.
And the perception was that my parents also agreed with this sentiment.
And when I graduated, I also agreed.
There's a lot of screaming in programs. But the subtext in these places in infinitely louder.
This is by no means isolated to my own experience. This is what every single program teaches. If they didn't, then YOU would be able to set the agenda for visitation.
Anyway, I admit the little anecdote thing is all boo hoo whiny emo crap. My point is, when you let the program be the primary parent, and kick you to the bumper seat, your send the message to your son that this is how it's going to be.. and soon he will believe you, because it's not just the program telling this lie to your child, you are, too, through your complicity.
Because that's what this is, isn't it? Complicity.
Which is why I say.. good luck after graduation... hope it works out.
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Sorry about not signing in (I learned something new).
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Uh, yeah.
You do know that Aspen just killed another kid, right? You can read the rest of this forum right?
Face it, whoever's playing Nigel: Any sperm donor dumb enough to buy into it wouldn't be posting here, and anyone not dumb enough would have bothered becoming more informed without needing to make a topic.
You can make Psy reply endlessly because he's an idiot, but you still fail.
Now get off the Internet and go back to murdering more kids.
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I forgot to answer one of Psy's questions about the levels. My son has complained about the decisions regarding advancement in the levels as being subjective. He claims that because a certain individual hates him, he will never advance in his levels. There is some truth in this (and thus a catch 22). While there are requirements to pass through the levels, the therapists make the final decision. For the last 3 years, whenever my son has had trouble accomplishing something, he has always blamed others. I will continue to encourage my son to figure out a way to make this work (he is going to have to deal with all sorts of people throughout his life, and he can't constantly blame his failures on the fact that someone doesn't like him). That being said, I will continue to monitor the situation and see if there is some merit to his complaints.
In answer to those that have asked "do I love my son?"----YES. I made this decision out of love, but I am not blind to the fact that this might have been a bad decision, thus I am on this forum asking for opinions. I am sure that those that have read my posts can tell that I deeply love my son. I will post again next Monday after I talk to my son.
Throughout his life will he be caged without due process because he has an ingrate relative? While imprisoned, will he be tortured and be presented with the stipulation that the torture will be ameliorated, and his release be possible, only if he "rises in levels"?
If this will not be his adulthood, then, no, you are not preparing him for adulthood.
Luckily he is imaginary.
Brovo on back pedaling about denying phone calls as punishment.
If you are ever interested in writing a story about a kid who gets actual medical treatment, you'll need to involve an actual psychiatrist, instead of the "therapists" at ASPEN, and actual clinically legitimate therapy. Punishing one kid for the actions of another aint therapy, it's a tactic to break down psychological defenses and force compliance. Forcing "the group" into therapy because of the actions of a few members wouldn't be involved either. One supposedly too mentally ill boy isn't responsible for the behavior of another. No "denial" of out going phone calls would be involved, either. Nor only phone calls that are monitored. And there would be no “all day” therapy. In legitimate psychiatric hospitals groups are relative short in duration, not monster marathons used to stamp out unwanted behavior.
As a fiction writer you need much improvement, but for trolling fornits, it'll do.
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I don't think I could have said it any more eloquently than TAC.
Communication with parents should never be used as a punishment, period. That's not to say that it isn't a common practice in programs of all kinds, but it is to say that if it's not the #1 red flag of a problem program, then it's pretty high up there. And it's less a matter of what your son is going to say when he's on the phone, it's about your role as a parent. It shouldn't be up to the program to punish your son, that's your job as his parent. And if the program were doing their job, they would be preparing both you and him for the inevitability of how you plan on disciplining him when he does come home.
Again, ditto TAC.
It sounds like many here are just trying to turn Nigel against Aspen Ranch. Its really not that big a deal...
John Reuben your son's dead. you killed him. you did this to your son :suicide: He did it after you imprisoned him at Academy at Swift river. Everyone knows what you did.
Call JD and ask how it feels to murder his own son.
March 21, 2007) John David Reuben, Chairman/ Founder of Saving Teens In Crisis Collaborative (STICC), Sudbury, MA, 877-249-1336
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Throughout his life will he be caged without due process because he has an ingrate relative? While imprisoned, will he be tortured and be presented with the stipulation that the torture will be ameliorated, and his release be possible, only if he "rises in levels"?
If this will not be his adulthood, then, no, you are not preparing him for adulthood.
A child is kept in a crib... a play pen.....back yard.... and their home (caged as you call it) until the child matures to the next level.
Our whole life is level systems! You progress through constant level systems as the child proves themselves. When you learn to not get food all over your shirt you move up a level and your parents remove your bib and if you start getting food all over you again then the bib is put back on until you get better at feeding. It isn’t designed as a punishment…
The same with driving. When you get a permit you drive with an adult then you move up a level to drive on your own with no other teens in the car and then finally if you don’t get any violations you are allowed to move up to the final level of driving on your own. There are consequences attached to breaking the rules.
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guess it just would be nice if you bothered to visit him on your own terms instead of aspens. This means, when you wanted to.
Very few places want parents to just show up. Have you ever just dropped in on your kid in public school? Said “hey he forgot his lunch money just wanted to say hey and chat awhile”. What you would get is “thank you mister Jones we will see to it that he gets his lunch money”... you wouldn’t get past the lobby without a cory report being filled out on you and you would be denied and sent on your way. You couldnt just wander around the school alone.
If you flew out to Aspen Ranch and walked in and said you wanted to speak with your son they would allow that. They would not be happy because they have a strict schedule and if parents were showing up noon and night to visit nothing would get done. Corporations dont allow this either. You schedule meetings ahead of time so that everyone can prepare.
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guess it just would be nice if you bothered to visit him on your own terms instead of aspens. This means, when you wanted to.
Very few places want parents to just show up. Have you ever just dropped in on your kid in public school? Said “hey he forgot his lunch money just wanted to say hey and chat awhile”. What you would get is “thank you mister Jones we will see to it that he gets his lunch money”... you wouldn’t get past the lobby without a cory report being filled out on you and you would be denied and sent on your way. You couldnt just wander around the school alone.
If you flew out to Aspen Ranch and walked in and said you wanted to speak with your son they would allow that. They would not be happy because they have a strict schedule and if parents were showing up noon and night to visit nothing would get done. Corporations dont allow this either. You schedule meetings ahead of time so that everyone can prepare.
Dude, are you serious or just fucking with us for your jollies? Public school???? seriously???? You're comparing public school to a program???
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
Let me know when you are competent enough to understand the difference between 7 hours to a couple of years.
I personally think you're just fucking with us because you've got that itch to troll. Nobody could POSSIBLY be that clueless and stupid.
I hope you're not a parent. Your kid is in for a world of shit.
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Dude, are you serious or just fucking with us for your jollies? Public school???? seriously???? You're comparing public school to a program???
Unless there is an emergency a person cannot just walk into any school situation and dictate the times they want to visit with another person (family or no family). Whether it be public school, private school, boarding school or program. This applies across the board. This also applies to corporations. Not sure what you are use to but having people just come and go as they pleased is just not manageable in any situation.
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That's just TheWho, aka John Reuben of STICC, an Aspen feeder group.
Anyway, he is a parent and sent both of his kids to highly abusive programs based on CEDU (ASR and HLA).
His kid that went to ASR shot himself so full of dope that he died.
His other son suffered through the decline and death of his mother while incarcerated at HLA where he was denied contact with her in her dying days and he has actually said publicly that he believes his dad (John Reuben, TheWho) was complicit in and responsible for his mother's death.
So, to recap: 2 kids, both in abusive programs, one dead from an overdose, the other estranged from his father and believing his father killed his mother. This is what John, aka TheWho, calls a "success story" and now he markets the program family resposible for destroying his children for cash kickbacks.[/u]
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Let me ask you this: does the program encourage you to tell your son that he is not coming home until he learns to "follow the program"? Is it possible that coaching is just as much as getting you to commit to the program as it is about removing any hope from your son?
WOW, Thats a loaded question. Of course the program is going to encourage the parent to keep the kid focused on the program. How effective would it be if the parent said “Aw, just hang in there, dont follow the rules if you dont want to, they sound stupid”.... any therapist would encourage the parent to keep the child focused whether it be school work, or a job. They would never encourage a parent or child to undermine the school system.
Either way you look at it. If he's not making progress in the program what's the point of keeping him there? I guarantee he'll be grateful at the very least if you take him out.
This I agree with. He will be very grateful if you take him out. But what has changed that will prevent him from going right back to his old ways? How will this help him? How do you determine this? Whats the next step if he becomes a danger to himself again? The program will not take him back knowing that the parent may pull him again at any time. No schools would do this except public schools and that is because they have to.
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That's just TheWho, aka John Reuben of STICC, an Aspen feeder group.
Anyway, he is a parent and sent both of his kids to highly abusive programs based on CEDU (ASR and HLA).
His kid that went to ASR shot himself so full of dope that he died.
His other son suffered through the decline and death of his mother while incarcerated at HLA where he was denied contact with her in her dying days and he has actually said publicly that he believes his dad (John Reuben, TheWho) was complicit in and responsible for his mother's death.
So, to recap: 2 kids, both in abusive programs, one dead from an overdose, the other estranged from his father and believing his father killed his mother. This is what John, aka TheWho, calls a "success story" and now he markets the program family resposible for destroying his children for cash kickbacks.[/u]
QFT. John Reuben doesn't like his actual story to be told. It interferes with his commission schedule.
Nigel, be aware the the single supporter encouraging you considers 'success' to be a completely broken, half-dead 'family unit.' You should approach his advice warily.
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That's just TheWho, aka John Reuben of STICC, an Aspen feeder group.
Anyway, he is a parent and sent both of his kids to highly abusive programs based on CEDU (ASR and HLA).
His kid that went to ASR shot himself so full of dope that he died.
His other son suffered through the decline and death of his mother while incarcerated at HLA where he was denied contact with her in her dying days and he has actually said publicly that he believes his dad (John Reuben, TheWho) was complicit in and responsible for his mother's death.
So, to recap: 2 kids, both in abusive programs, one dead from an overdose, the other estranged from his father and believing his father killed his mother. This is what John, aka TheWho, calls a "success story" and now he markets the program family resposible for destroying his children for cash kickbacks.[/u]
Nigel, I forgot to mention that he was also involved in plotting the 911 attacks. The guy is whacked. He is currently posting from Iraq trying to form an Aspen wilderness program to kill off his other kids.
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Warning Signs of Abusive Residential Programs
From ASTART, the Alliance for the Safe, Therapeutic and Approriate use of Residential Treatment, housed at the University of South Florida Department of Child and Family Studies. See their fact sheet at http://http://astart.fmhi.usf.edu/AStartDocs/factsheet.pdf
Auntie Em
ASTART recommends that you beware of residential programs that:
1. Are not state-licensed and accredited with regard to all 3 aspects of the program: the (1) educational, (2) mental/behavioral health and (3) residential components.
2. Claim to be able to assess your child and make program recommendations by internet or by phone and then urge you to “act now” to prevent serious harm to your child and family.
3. Recommend or support the use of private “escort” or “transport” services to take your child to the program.
4. Do not respect the wisdom and expertise of parents and youth:
• Do not allow your family and child to visit the program, see all the facilities and meet all the staff before deciding to admit your child.
• Tell you to expect that your child will lie to you while in the program, and encourage you not to believe reports of abuse because these will be “attempts at manipulation.”
• Do not encourage you as parents to be active participants throughout all stages of the program.
• Do not welcome feedback (praise or criticism) from your child regarding the program.
5. Restrict youth & family rights in terms of:
• Contact with family by phone, mail and in person (for example, no phone contact or visits for first month; censored mail; monitored visits with no opportunities for parent/child discussion in private).
• Dress code (for example: require youth to wear jumpsuits or flip-flops).
• Typical age-appropriate behavior (for example: forbid eye contact with youth of the opposite sex; forbid speaking, smiling, or moving without permission).
• Parental rights (for example: do not contact parents immediately in the case of illness, injury, emergency or treatment/medication changes).
• Do not provide hotlines for youth and families to call at any time if they feel that their rights are being violated or they are being mistreated.
6. Use harsh and excessive discipline practices that include: seclusion, restraint, corporal punishment, punitive “behavioral modification,” fear tactics, humiliation, peer-on-peer discipline / peer pressure, forced labor, heightened physiological stress (for example, excessive exercise, sleep deprivation, exposure to the elements, forced retention of bodily waste or nutritional deprivation) or sedation by medication.
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That's just TheWho,
And you're his whore.
You people are so pathetic. Congratulations on being pwned so much by a troll.
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That's just TheWho, aka John Reuben of STICC, an Aspen feeder group.
Anyway, he is a parent and sent both of his kids to highly abusive programs based on CEDU (ASR and HLA).
His kid that went to ASR shot himself so full of dope that he died.
His other son suffered through the decline and death of his mother while incarcerated at HLA where he was denied contact with her in her dying days and he has actually said publicly that he believes his dad (John Reuben, TheWho) was complicit in and responsible for his mother's death.
So, to recap: 2 kids, both in abusive programs, one dead from an overdose, the other estranged from his father and believing his father killed his mother. This is what John, aka TheWho, calls a "success story" and now he markets the program family resposible for destroying his children for cash kickbacks.[/u]
Nigel, I forgot to mention that he was also involved in plotting the 911 attacks. The guy is whacked. He is currently posting from Iraq trying to form an Aspen wilderness program to kill off his other kids.
Again, TheWho posting above. However, you should note that he did not deny any of the facts presented, he only tried to make them look ridiculous by throwing out a red herring, as his 'story' has already been told here so he can't deny previously admitting these things - too late for that. It tells a lot about a person when they do this.
Regardless of how he tries to spin, TheWho is a program pimp, Aspen feeder, kickback/referral taker, father to a dead son who wasn't helped by Aspen and overdosed, and head of a broken, dysfunctional household in which his remaining son blames TheWho directly for the death of his wife.
And the worst part? He wants to 'help' your family like he did his. :poison: :suicide:
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ok. I see where this is going. im outta here.
later, losers. :twofinger:
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Nigel, I forgot to mention that he was also involved in plotting the 911 attacks. The guy is whacked. He is currently posting from Iraq trying to form an Aspen wilderness program to kill off his other kids.
Again, TheWho posting above. However, you should note that he did not deny any of the facts presented, he only tried to make them look ridiculous by throwing out a red herring, as his 'story' has already been told here so he can't deny previously admitting these things - too late for that. It tells a lot about a person when they do this.
Regardless of how he tries to spin, TheWho is a program pimp, Aspen feeder, kickback/referral taker, father to a dead son who wasn't helped by Aspen and overdosed, and head of a broken, dysfunctional household in which his remaining son blames TheWho directly for the death of his wife.
And the worst part? He wants to 'help' your family like he did his. :poison: :suicide:
Again that last post wasnt mine, this is one of his tricks, trying to imitate me and my style of writing (I always use the word irregardless not regardless). Thewho is trying to make me look bad by posting those suicide smilies, which everyone who reads here often enough knows I dont use. Notice he didnt try to deny his hand in the 911 attacks and the fact that he is trying to get a program started in Iraq, but instead attacked me. His sole purpose is to deny his past and try to make me look bad. Is this the type of guy you want looking after your kid?
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His sole purpose is to deny his past and try to make me look bad.
Yes, it is true that you do this, Whooter, but it's not your sole purpose. You are also here to rope in dumbasses like the OP to Aspen programs, regardless of the damage to your own family Aspen caused.
Is this the type of guy you want looking after your kid?
No, certainly not. Anyone taking advice from you is necessarily dumber than you and that's pretty dumb.
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^^TheWho^^ Talking to himself again.
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Hi again, Today's phone call with my son was tough. He is feeling like he can't make his way through the "levels" that Aspen Ranch has set up. He feels like one of his therapists hates him and will hold him back. He doesn't see the value in any of this. I am doing my best to listen to him and give him my point of view on why I think he should try to work with everyone there and give it his best shot. The reasons he gave as to why he can't progress through the system are the same reasons he gave at home in regards to school. My son always feels that people hate him, and therefore they hold him back and evaluate him incorrectly. He sounded pretty depressed. I told him I loved him and that we would talk again next week. I then wrote him a letter (I write every day) and made sure he knew that I had heard everything he had said and I let him know that I don't discount everything he says (he has claimed this before). Our next visit is in early October. If I thought bringing him home right now would work, I would do it in a heartbeat, but I feel like everything would be back to what it was before. I am still evaluating the whole program and am hoping (and wishing) that things improve. I will post again next week.
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Hi again, Today's phone call with my son was tough. He is feeling like he can't make his way through the "levels" that Aspen Ranch has set up. He feels like one of his therapists hates him and will hold him back. He doesn't see the value in any of this. I am doing my best to listen to him and give him my point of view on why I think he should try to work with everyone there and give it his best shot. The reasons he gave as to why he can't progress through the system are the same reasons he gave at home in regards to school. My son always feels that people hate him, and therefore they hold him back and evaluate him incorrectly.
So there isn't any possibility at all he could be telling the truth this time? Well. If you're not willing to listen to your son who is echoing some of the very same things warned about here... I wish there was something more I could say. It's like watching somebody make a big mistake, trying to talk them out of it, and failing over and over. It's a bit depressing, honestly. I wish there was some way to transfer what I know about programs into your head. Until that technology exists, all I can hope for is that you keep and open mind and listen to what some on this forum have to say... not necessarily all... just keep an open mind. Above all listen to your son.
He sounded pretty depressed. I told him I loved him and that we would talk again next week. I then wrote him a letter (I write every day) and made sure he knew that I had heard everything he had said and I let him know that I don't discount everything he says (he has claimed this before).
You say you don't discount everything and yet it's exactly what I see you doing... and I'm pretty sure he sees it too. Sooner or later he's going to lose faith in you and that's not something you'll ever get back. Out of those on Fornits who are in a decent talking relationship with their parents, I doubt any of them actually trust their parents anymore, at least not to the extent they did before the program.
... And once he looses faith that you'll believe what he says, he'll stop trying, and that's the real point: to make him believe that the only way out is to comply with the program. What you can expect now if you continue the way you're going is this: eventually your son is going to stop complaining to you and start blindly trusting the program (since it's the only other way out... or so he'll think). He'll probably start saying he loves it there and the staff are all wonderful and so forth.
This will be followed by a few months of relative stability. During this phase he'll probably come forth with confessions of things he didn't actually do or exaggerated problems (occasional pot smoking becomes an "addiction"... he might admit to doing drugs he never did). His counselors will coach him to confess these things on the phone or will otherwise relay them to you. He'll do this partially because he believes it and partially because he knows it's what the program wants. Unfortunately for him, it'll also make you think "oh my god... i never realized he had these problems.. he definitely cant' come home" (which is exactly what the program wants and why they do this). If he's lucky, he'll be one of the "chosen ones"** ("marks" allowed to "win the game" for marketing purposes) and will proceed to graduation (but don't worry, he'll blow up shortly after getting home). If he's not (the more plausible explanation), and the program intends on keeping him indefinitely for the money, and he realizes this, he'll blow up at that point, start rebelling against the program and so forth. They'll take away privileges and kick him back to level 1/phase 1/whatever aspen calls it. This process will repeat itself until you either run out of money or he manages to do something incredible for which the program will kick him out (act of extreme desperation).
It's hard to describe exactly how this con is run to somebody who hasn't been exactly in the middle of it, but I'm hoping you're smarter than the average parent and can read up on how other programs have operated. Kathy Moya who studies this issue ran an article a while back called "understanding the con game":
http://troubled-teen-industry.com/news/ ... e-con-game (http://troubled-teen-industry.com/news/60-understanding-the-con-game)
You might also want to read my article:
http://troubled-teen-industry.com/news/ ... to-parents (http://troubled-teen-industry.com/news/48-from-a-former-student-to-parents)
Our next visit is in early October. If I thought bringing him home right now would work, I would do it in a heartbeat, but I feel like everything would be back to what it was before.
Or he could be grateful enough for taking him out that he'd be willing to act more in a way that pleases you (if not for any reason other than he'd be afraid of getting sent back or to another program.
I am still evaluating the whole program and am hoping (and wishing) that things improve. I will post again next week.
Look forward to it. At some point you're going to come back to this thread and wish you did things differently. I can all but guarantee it. It's just a matter of time.
** "The confidence trickster (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick#Vulnerability_to_confidence_tricks) often works with one or more accomplices called shills, who help manipulate the mark into accepting the con man's plan. In a traditional confidence trick, the mark is led to believe that he will be able to win money or some other prize by doing some task. The accomplices may pretend to be random strangers who have benefited from successfully performing the task."
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I guess that you consider your son to be a smart guy. At some point he starts talking to the other kids and learn how to move up in levels by confessing something. Be prepared for a surprise because in such an environment the kids borrow problems from each other. It doesn't have to be a bad thing because later in life when he is at a work place he need how to duck and please the boss so he can move up in ranks.
But if he starts to believe that he has the confessed issues then he will have a problem.
All programs state that there are 4 ways (http://http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/Parents/child_placed.htm) the teenagers can use to manipulate themselves home but in your sons case it sounds that it could be a real illness. Depression can be deadly if not treated correct. Is he monitored 24/7? Can they simulate the safety of a in-patient hospital unit?
AEG have lost one child in the wilderness program they run in this area. He was able to hang himselves back in 2007. He was also depressed because he had lost a brother.
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AEG have lost one child in the wilderness program they run in this area. He was able to hang himselves back in 2007. He was also depressed because he had lost a brother.
Oscar, How is this statement even relevant? Lots of kids kill themselves, 1,000’s every year. We cant just avoid every place where this occurs. Kids die at home mostly, so what should we do not allow kids to stay at home so they will be safer? Kick them all out?
Not sure what the point is. Statistics show that kids are much more safe in programs than they are at home or in public schools.
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Ok, I'll bite. Please provide the published, peer-reviewed study that establishes that kids are 'safer in programs than public schools.'
Can't wait to see the proof of that statement.
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Ok, I'll bite. Please provide the published, peer-reviewed study that establishes that kids are 'safer in programs than public schools.'
Can't wait to see the proof of that statement.
He has yet to provide it. He has been making those claims on fornits for a longer period of time than I've been posting. I've yet to see that proof.
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Just not a big site for proof I guess. Earlier on I asked for a peer reviewed study which showed that Aspen Ranch was ineffective and not one person was able to provide any evidence at all. I thought at least one person would have had something. I was looking for a hard backed copy. Guess we can conclude that the Aspen Ranch is very effective.
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Just not a big site for proof I guess. Earlier on I asked for a peer reviewed study which showed that Aspen Ranch was ineffective and not one person was able to provide any evidence at all. I thought at least one person would have had something. I was looking for a hard backed copy. Guess we can conclude that the Aspen Ranch is very effective.
Bad bad logic, Whooter. Lack of "hard backed copy" showing Aspen Ranch to be "ineffective" does not enable one to conclude that "Aspen Ranch is very effective."
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Just not a big site for proof I guess. Earlier on I asked for a peer reviewed study which showed that Aspen Ranch was ineffective and not one person was able to provide any evidence at all. I thought at least one person would have had something. I was looking for a hard backed copy. Guess we can conclude that the Aspen Ranch is very effective.
Bad bad logic, Whooter. Lack of "hard backed copy" showing Aspen Ranch to be "ineffective" does not enable one to conclude that "Aspen Ranch is very effective."
That was my point. Very few people come to fornits prepared with a peer reviewed study to back up their claims. I was just making a point. If you looked at the thousands of kids who take their lives each year compared to the one or so each year in programs you dont need a full scale study to figure which is safer. 4 or 5 kids take their lives every day and then you take this at risk group and place them in a program and you may lose one a year... not bad.
(Rough numbers)
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Just not a big site for proof I guess. Earlier on I asked for a peer reviewed study which showed that Aspen Ranch was ineffective and not one person was able to provide any evidence at all. I thought at least one person would have had something. I was looking for a hard backed copy. Guess we can conclude that the Aspen Ranch is very effective.
Bad bad logic, Whooter. Lack of "hard backed copy" showing Aspen Ranch to be "ineffective" does not enable one to conclude that "Aspen Ranch is very effective."
That was my point. Very few people come to fornits prepared with a peer reviewed study to back up their claims. I was just making a point. If you looked at the thousands of kids who take their lives each year compared to the one or so each year in programs you dont need a full scale study to figure which is safer. 4 or 5 kids take their lives every day and then you take this at risk group and place them in a program and you may lose one a year... not bad.
(Rough numbers)
Lol. Just how "rough" are those numbers, Whooter?
Within the first four months of this year alone, two former students who had recently attended Hyde School committed suicide.
Or would you discount those two, since they weren't physically at the school when they offed themselves?
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Just not a big site for proof I guess. Earlier on I asked for a peer reviewed study which showed that Aspen Ranch was ineffective and not one person was able to provide any evidence at all. I thought at least one person would have had something. I was looking for a hard backed copy. Guess we can conclude that the Aspen Ranch is very effective.
Bad bad logic, Whooter. Lack of "hard backed copy" showing Aspen Ranch to be "ineffective" does not enable one to conclude that "Aspen Ranch is very effective."
That was my point. Very few people come to fornits prepared with a peer reviewed study to back up their claims. I was just making a point. If you looked at the thousands of kids who take their lives each year compared to the one or so each year in programs you dont need a full scale study to figure which is safer. 4 or 5 kids take their lives every day and then you take this at risk group and place them in a program and you may lose one a year... not bad.
(Rough numbers)
Lol. Just how "rough" are those numbers, Whooter?
Within the first four months of this year alone, two former students who had recently attended Hyde School committed suicide.
Or would you discount those two, since they weren't physically at the school when they offed themselves?
Interesting question. If they left the program and then committed suicide then they should not be counted as program deaths. If a kid committed suicide while at the program would you attribute his/her death to the public school he attend just prior to going to the program ? or would you attribute it as a program death?
If you think we should go back two years to establish "cause" then any death occuring in the first 2 years of the program should not be counted as a program death.
This is why I question Oscars rules. They keep changing in favor of blaming the program each time. There are no boundary conditions or rules which can be cited ot pointed to for consistency.
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There’s no evidence that Aspen "helps" teens.
Therefore, by medical or scientific standards it is classified as not beneficial and not “therapeutic.”
There’s plethora of evidence that Aspen Ranch hurts and kills victims. Google the effects of kidnapping, long term imprisonment, imprisonment without due process, brainwashing. All of these oppressive and torturous violations, perpetrated by Aspen ranch, have been proved to cause serious personal harm. Duh, right?
John reuben, aka the who(?), destroyed his kid, Max Reuben by paying Academy at Swift river and SUWS Wilderness Programs to torture his son. No matter how often he attempt to absolve troubled teen programs (thought reform gulags) for the damage they do, he will never absolve himself for his son's death.He has no more kids. All he has is fornits.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&start=0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&start=0)
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There’s plethora of evidence that Aspen Ranch hurts and kills victims. Google the effects of kidnapping,
I did just that and didnt find one reference to Aspen Education. They have never even been charged let alone convicted of kidnapping.
long term imprisonment,
Same thing. I tried “Aspen Imprisonment”, “ASG Imprisonment”, “Aspen Education Imprisonment” and nothing comes up. There are no cases pending or closed out that I can find
imprisonment without due process,
Same thing. I tried “Aspen Imprisonment without due process”, “ASG Imprisonment without due process”, “Aspen Education Imprisonment without due process” and nothing comes up. There are no cases pending or closed out that I can find
brainwashing.
Same thing. I tried “Aspen brainwashing”, “ASG brainwashing”, “Aspen Education brainwashing” and nothing comes up. There are no cases pending or closed out that I can find
All of these oppressive and torturous violations, perpetrated by Aspen ranch, have been proved to cause serious personal harm. Duh, right?
Do you have any facts to back up what you say?
Are you related to Ajax? Ha,Ha,Ha
You say there’s plethora of evidence that Aspen Ranch hurts and kills victims, yet you post nothing. You suggest the reader does Google searches and still nothing. We all know Aspen helps kids but somehow you managed to screw it all up and want to blame your parents or the program for your screwed up and unmotivated life.
Sorry I cant help you out.
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There’s plethora of evidence that Aspen Ranch hurts and kills victims. Google the effects of kidnapping,
I did just that and didnt find one reference to Aspen Education. They have never even been charged let alone convicted of kidnapping.
long term imprisonment,
Same thing. I tried “Aspen Imprisonment”, “ASG Imprisonment”, “Aspen Education Imprisonment” and nothing comes up. There are no cases pending or closed out that I can find
imprisonment without due process,
Same thing. I tried “Aspen Imprisonment without due process”, “ASG Imprisonment without due process”, “Aspen Education Imprisonment without due process” and nothing comes up. There are no cases pending or closed out that I can find
brainwashing.
Same thing. I tried “Aspen brainwashing”, “ASG brainwashing”, “Aspen Education brainwashing” and nothing comes up. There are no cases pending or closed out that I can find
All of these oppressive and torturous violations, perpetrated by Aspen ranch, have been proved to cause serious personal harm. Duh, right?
Do you have any facts to back up what you say?
Are you related to Ajax? Ha,Ha,Ha
You say there’s plethora of evidence that Aspen Ranch hurts and kills victims, yet you post nothing. You suggest the reader does Google searches and still nothing. We all know Aspen helps kids but somehow you managed to screw it all up and want to blame your parents or the program for your screwed up and unmotivated life.
Sorry I cant help you out.
Aspen does have cases pending against it for kidnap, imprisonment, torture, more or less.
http://www.websupp.org/data/EDTX/9:04-c ... 3-EDTX.pdf (http://www.websupp.org/data/EDTX/9:04-cv-00228-33-EDTX.pdf)
"Plaintiff Mary Lytle, personally and as guardian for her daughter Sarah Nealon, sues
Defendants Aspen Education Group (“Aspen”) and Lone Star Expeditions, Inc. (“Lone Star”) for
negligence, gross negligence, malice, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and false
imprisonment."
You actually pull up a lot for "aspen education" and imprisonment, lawsuits too.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls= ... nt&spell=1 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&ei=QQevSrKrBtDAlAfxlunrBg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=%22aspen+education%22+imprisonment&spell=1)
Sadly, the law's rarely enforced for teens (and adults!) kidnapped by gulags through criminal charges. Sociopaths like you exploit that for fun and profit.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_k ... _n6866576/ (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmlea/is_200407/ai_n6866576/)
Brainwashing, imprisonment,torture at Aspen Ranch is described below(sworn testimony). The reality of the negative effects of these violations extend to all victims who've experienced them, not just the specific victims under study.
(Aspen victims experience *worse* abuse than most studied because their abuse originates in primary relationships, their youth, the involvement of their own govt through its non-action. Therefore they are likely to experience greater long term damage.) (this has been scientifically established too).
A peer reviewed survey of survivors of places like Aspen ranch:
http://www.cafety.org/research/121-rese ... -pinto-phd (http://www.cafety.org/research/121-research/433-a-summary-of-participant-perspectives-allison-pinto-phd)
More accounts of torturous gulags that get away with it:
http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... _Testimony (http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/index.php?title=Submit_Your_Testimony)
Ya cant defend the indefensible, whooter,John Reuben. And you and Academy at Swift River cant bring back the kid you killed, Michael Joshua Reuben. Your son rots more each day. And you did that to him.
http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm)
SURVIVOR REPORTS
SURVIVOR REPORT #1 BY ANONYMOUS
I wish I knew where to begin. I know that there are many more programs that are probably more abusive than what I
experienced here but that doesn't take away from the facts. I will try to focus on the most disturbing experiences i can
remember but, like many other survivors of such programs i find myself having a hard time remembering everything that went
on. For the first two weeks you arrive at Aspen Ranch you are placed on a level known as round-up. During this period of
time you are either silent in a basement, or outside doing manual labor (changing watering pipes, building fences etc).
You can not have any contact with your parents and get to talk to a therapist maybe once or twice. One July morning when
I refused to go outside, the sheets were ripped out from under me and I was carried and thrown onto a staircase where two
men put my shoes on picked me up and dragged me to the field where I was to work. Afraid of any other forms of punishment,
I did. Being physically threatened is a major way they get you to follow the rules. Every week you got to speak with your
parents, on speakerphone, with your therapist present for 20 minutes. If you ever tried to tell your parents about the
torture you were suffering through the conversation would be immediately terminated. All letters were read before sent,
all incoming mail opened read and inspected before given to you. The only contact allowed was to your parents and had to
be positive. On top of whatever work project your team was assigned to each day you also had to participate in an hour
long physical, no matter how physically drained you were. People would sometimes pass out or break down begging to stop
but, for the most part the physical went on for as long as the supervisor saw fit. The psychological abuse was never
ending, if you were suspected of doing something wrong you would be forced to go into the basement and sit at a desk until
you admitted what you were accused of. We were often threatened to be sent to an out of country program where we were told
there was no child labor laws, I still don't know if this program exists but, the mere threat was enough to keep most of us
"in line". I could go on forever with stories of this sort. My main point though, please do not put your child through
this, two years later I am still suffering from the lies I was fed.
Please protect my identity. I know this is not a complete story but I think it gets the point across. If you need my full
name and dates I attended the program for your own records I can let you know, thanks so much for raising awareness about
such horrible programs.
SURVIVOR REPORT #2 BY ANON
These are all factual events that take place at aspen ranch everyday, these are events that have taken place and will
continue to unless someone takes action soon. Everything in my statement is true and I give HEAL permission to use my
statement. I am a survivor of the aspen ranch school, located in Loa, UT. A Theraputic Boarding school/ rehabilitation
center.....my ass. Aspen Ranch uses a physical restraint system called PCS (positive control system) which is actually
FAR from positive. PCS includes a barrage or various pressure points and bent wrists, locked joints, and strained tendons.
Once put into PCS submission you are held here by a minimum of 3 staff, you're pulse regularly checked to indicate your
level of anger. You are normally on the ground (also known as "Carpet Time" for a norm of 45 minutes to an hour) They use
any method of getting you down, whether it be calmly asking you to cooperate with them or tackling you through a crowd of
people onto concrete (which seems to be a staff favorite). I have seen many of my friends at Aspen Ranch end up with broken
wrists from PCS. I have myself lost the feeling in the tips of my fingers for days as a result of being held in PCS
submission for over 3 hours. Once you are PCSed (on top of everything) you have to go to R&R (redirection and recovery)
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Nice try......Where is the kidnapping and Brainwashing law suits?
Are you related to Ajax? Ha,Ha,Ha
Try your google search again and get back to us. Try to respond with facts this time... hold the personal attacks until after you realize I have proved you wrong again..
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Nice try......Where is the kidnapping and Brainwashing law suits?
Are you related to Ajax? Ha,Ha,Ha
Try your google search again and get back to us. Try to respond with facts this time... hold the personal attacks until after you realize I have proved you wrong again..
Why try to reason with this numnuts. You could prove a thousand kids die each year and he would find a way to rationalize, justify and dismiss it...so "only" 4, 5 kids die a year and this is "not bad" Try telling that to the families of those 4 or 5 kids. There is not really much you say to an idiot who is still shilling for the program that killed his son?
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long term imprisonment,
I tried “Aspen Imprisonment”, “ASG Imprisonment”, “Aspen Education Imprisonment” and nothing comes up. There are no cases pending or closed out that I can find
imprisonment without due process,
Same thing. I tried “Aspen Imprisonment without due process”, “ASG Imprisonment without due process”, “Aspen Education Imprisonment without due process” and nothing comes up. There are no cases pending or closed out that I can find
brainwashing.
Same thing. I tried “Aspen brainwashing”, “ASG brainwashing”, “Aspen Education brainwashing” and nothing comes up. There are no cases pending or closed out that I can find
.
A lot "comes up" for “aspen education” and "imprisonment;"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls= ... nt&spell=1 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&ei=QQevSrKrBtDAlAfxlunrBg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=%22aspen+education%22+imprisonment&spell=1)
and "torture;"
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22aspen ... 1I7GGLL_en (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22aspen+education%22+torture&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8&rlz=1I7GGLL_en)
and "brainwashing:"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls= ... f&oq=&aqi= (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-US&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&q=%22aspen+education%22+brainwash&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)
and "thought reform:"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls= ... f&oq=&aqi= (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-US&rlz=1I7GGLL_en&q=%22aspen+education%22+%22thought+reform%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)
A lot of lawsuits, as well, if you look long enough. Lawsuits over deaths of detainees, also(murders). I wonder how the lawsuit over the death of brendan blum is going?
http://brendanblum.blogspot.com/ (http://brendanblum.blogspot.com/)
Friday, October 12, 2007
Charges Filed in Death of Brendan Blum
2 youth counselors charged in California boy's death
14-year-old was staying at treatment center in Draper
By Pat Reavy and Rebecca Palmer
Deseret Morning News
Published: October 12, 2007
Two counselors at a residential youth treatment center in Draper where a 14-year-old boy died in June were charged Thursday in connection with the boy's death.
Deborah Cole and Jorge Ramirez, from Youth Care Inc., 12600 Minuteman Drive, each face one count of abuse or neglect of a child, a third-degree felony.
On June 27, Brendan Blum of California was suffering bowel and stomach problems. He had been vomiting and suffering from diarrhea all night, said Draper Police Sgt. Gerry Allred. Rather than contacting the on-call nurse as the facility's policy dictates, the boy was simply given some medicine and put in a separate room away from the rest of the boys, he said. The next morning, the boy, who was listed as a disabled child because he had Asperger's syndrome, was found dead on his mattress.
"There was no really good reason why they didn't take him ... no explanation except they just thought it was an upset stomach," Allred said.
An autopsy determined the boy had an obstructed bowel that deteriorated as the night went on, Allred said. The on-call nurse, who was later interviewed by police, said if she had been called to look at the boy she would have advised he immediately go to the hospital, he said.
The Utah State Medical Examiner concurred, "if medical intervention had been obtained, (the boy's) death would have been preventable," according to court documents.
The boy's mother, Dana Blum, said she is appalled that workers at the facility didn't take him to an emergency room. Any time a child dies while in the care of a licensed facility, the facility should be shut down immediately, she said.
Blum has filed a complaint with the Utah licensing board and is waiting for the investigation to be completed.
She hopes the individuals who operated the facility will be held accountable along with the workers.
"I don't wish them any ill, I would just like to see justice done for my son," she said.
The facility issued a statement shortly after the boy's death saying it was the result of a "medical condition." The group home is operated by Aspen Education Group, based in Cerritos, Calif. It is a division of the CRC Health Group, which runs boarding schools, outdoor education programs and weight-loss camps.
Ironically, the charges came one day after the Government Accountability Office in Washington, D.C., found thousands of abuse allegations at camps and other private treatment facilities around the country.
Blum hopes the national attention will result in stricter standards and more accountability across the board.
Brendan was placed in the facility following treatment at a California hospital. Blum said she researched Youth Care Inc. extensively before sending her son there.
"This is double-edged sword for me," she said. "I am not a deadbeat mom."
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http://www.momlogic.com/2009/06/can_wil ... l_your.php (http://www.momlogic.com/2009/06/can_wilderness_camps_kill_your.php)
Then they dumped water on him after he vomited and collapsed on the ground. Matthew Meyer died an hour later at the hospital. He was 14 years old.
Camp administrators refused to tell Crystal what happened to her son. It took three and a half years of investigation and litigation to reveal the truth. Aspen Education Group, the owners of Lone Star Expeditions, settled the case out of court.
Aspen Education Group murders kids
http://www.aspeneducation.com/ (http://www.aspeneducation.com/)
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AEG have lost one child in the wilderness program they run in this area. He was able to hang himselves back in 2007. He was also depressed because he had lost a brother.
Oscar, How is this statement even relevant? Lots of kids kill themselves, 1,000’s every year. We cant just avoid every place where this occurs. Kids die at home mostly, so what should we do not allow kids to stay at home so they will be safer? Kick them all out?
Not sure what the point is. Statistics show that kids are much more safe in programs than they are at home or in public schools.
It is the same with traffic. Billions of miles are driven every day by our citizens without accidents. If you count the number of people on the roads everyday those who are injured or killed represent a small percentage.
But regardless of that the number of killed or injured are few, every single year we see more regulations and tougher laws.
So if we makes laws to protect people in traffic, then HR. 911 is only a small effort. Laws are made to protect kids in their home home too. In a lot of countries you can no longer allow them to work in the home, work with certain tools or leave them alone for longer time if they are under a certain age.
The point is that we can always do better. When it is a fact that people with depression can kill themselves and they have done so in programs where they are not under supervision 24/7 as they are in a inpatient hospital unit, why risk repeat the fatal error?
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Anyone can find an article related to just about any subject. You mentioned ....there’s plethora of evidence that Aspen Ranch hurts and kills victims, yet you post nothing. Where are the lawsuits against Aspen Ranch?
Here I can find a plethora of articles regarding brainwashing, torture and kidnapping at McDonalds. But you cant find any cases of that occurring at Aspen Ranch, can you? Has there ever been a single successful case against Aspen Ranch? Forget your plethora try to find one where Aspen Ranch was found guilty of this stuff. You site articles from your own support sites. Try to site a court case involving Aspen Ranch.
McDonalds and brainwashing
Supporting Link A (http://http://www.thefighting44s.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5300)
McDonalds and torture
Supporting Link B (http://http://vegetarianstar.com/2009/08/25/meatless-mouthful-chrissie-hynde-at-utah-mcdonalds-protest/)
McDonalds and kidnapping
Supporting Link C (http://http://www.thefranchisemall.com/news/articles/21968-0.htm)
I haven’t been able to find where Aspen Ranch has been found guilty of any of these things. Help me out here.
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There are obviously a lot of people on this forum that believe The Aspen Ranch (and programs like them) are terrible for kids. I am still continuing to evaluate the whole thing. My question to all of you is: What should I have done instead? To let you know what we did do: we had our son see pyschologists (he liked the one he was seeing, but not taking his advice). We went to a psychiatrist. My son agreed that he was depressed and wanted to try medication. He stopped taking them in January and refused to see another psychiatrist. We had teachers that my son liked try to talk to him, to no avail. We had other family members step in----he listened to them and was polite, but he never took their advice. He had basically failed out of school (he claims he saw no value in it), was running away and relying on pot and lsd and alcohol to get him through the day (this is what my son has said). He claimed he was going to kill himself. As I said before, he was not going to accept my advice or help (he claims I have no idea how he feels and that my advice sucks----our talks have been much more open the last couple of months, but he is still hurting big time and he hates the ranch). Sending him to a relative is probably not realistic as I don't think any of my family is ready to take this on. What would you have done if this was your son. I am open to advice, as he will eventually be coming home and I have to have a game plan that my son will go along with.
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Well, first thing I noticed, Nigel, is that you never tried local outpatient or inpatient or drug treatment. You missed several steps there. Plus most parents like to say their kid would have killed himself, but then you send him to a place where he's completely unmonitored for long periods of time instead of an inpatient psychiatric facility. If he is a danger to himself as you say, you have paved the way for his suicide.
Second, don't listen to the poster demanding proof of a negative ('prove aspen DOESN'T WORK"). This is a basic logical fallacy, as negative can never be proven, only positives. Demand that he show you a peer reviewed clinical study that Aspen IS effective. There is none and he knows that. this is why he tried to shift the focus and wiggle out of the question. Nigel, can you at least admit you see shameless marketing and disinformation from an Aspen agent here? I mean the guy has absolutely no facts to back up his claim. If Aspen can't even provide a study to show that they're effective, it means they are NOT effective. If they could prove their program worked (like every legitimate program or any drug release MUST do) do you think any obstacle would stop them from plastering this proof all over the 'net?
Nigel, you're getting snookered by sophisticated hucksters here and you are going hook, line and sinker. Nigel, if you asked your kid's therapist to provide proof of efficacy of the treatment he's giving your son and he replied "YOU prove to ME that it's INEFFECTIVE!" and follows it up with "MCDonalds kidnaps and tortures!" can you honestly tell me that you wouldn't take your kid and run as fast as your feet can carry you?
Think about it. And think about the evasiveness of the Aspen agent (known here as TheWho, but is actually John Reuben, an Aspen feeder). What does that examination tell you?
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Well, first thing I noticed, Nigel, is that you never tried local outpatient or inpatient or drug treatment.
You're assuming there that drug use was his problem. Doesn't sound like it to me. Sounds like he was in pain and using those substances to cope. Self medicating if you wish to label it as that. Such a course of action you're suggesting above would have treated a symptom as a disease, never getting to whatever was causing him the pain. Furthermore, forced treatment never works. It never has and it never will.
@Nigel: You're asking what you could do? Well. It depends. Do you have any clue why he was so depressed? If you don't know that and he was unwilling to tell you, maybe he doesn't trust you, is ashamed, or thinks that in some way you'll reject you if he tells you what he's upset about. That's a big problem. Whatever the cause there is something only you or he might have some insight into. Finding somebody he trusts is the key. How was his social life? Did he have friends? Was he rejected at school? You *must* have some insight into why he was so miserable.
If the depression was biochemical there's no question he should be medicated. Did he give a reason why he didn't want to be on the medication? Side effects? Perhaps he could have been convinced to try another form of medication. Perhaps he could help you select a psychologist he could trust. There are plenty out there and I'm sure they could give lots more advice than myself on at-home solutions. There are several psychologists/psychiatrists at CAFETY who could probably offer advice in that regard:
http://www.cafety.org/qaa-with-dr-charles-huffine (http://www.cafety.org/qaa-with-dr-charles-huffine) <- he has some advice on that page
http://www.cafety.org/board-of-advisors (http://www.cafety.org/board-of-advisors)
(full disclosure: I am not a member of CAFETY and do not agree with all their policies)
Please don't hesitate to email me for more contacts.
Honestly, I don't know what the solution is for you. That's not the point some people are trying to make here. The point is that we do know what does not work, and programs by and large not only do not work but can make things worse. If these programs were effective, don't you think there would have been studies done to prove this to be true?
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nigel, i'm going to frame this advice based on the very real question "what do you do when your son comes home". frankly, and unfortunately this responsibility falls to you, since aspen is only going to sell you what they know, aftercare in the community isn't their specialty. there are community-based services available depending on the community that you live in. you also might consider having your son evaluated for any learning disabilities if you haven't done so already. if you want to pm either me or psy, with at least some basic information about your whereabouts, we can at least point you in the right direction for the community-based supports that will successfully keep your son at home.
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You're assuming there that drug use was his problem. Doesn't sound like it to me. Sounds like he was in pain and using those substances to cope. Self medicating if you wish to label it as that. Such a course of action you're suggesting above would have treated a symptom as a disease, never getting to whatever was causing him the pain. Furthermore, forced treatment never works. It never has and it never will.
No, I'm not missing any of that. I agree with everythiing you said. When I respond to parents in that way, it's more of an exercise in reasoning than advice. I'd like Nigel to think about what he has said about his son (depressed, addicted to drugs, going to kill himself, etc) and then think about how he responded to what he believes is the reality of the situation.
If all he said is indeed true, then he skipped many proven treatment modalities that are valid, sound, clinically studied modalities that would likely have helped his son. My hope in explaining it in this fashion is to allow Nigel to make the connection that those things should have been done before he ever even entertained non-evidence based, coerced, harmful pseudo-treatment like Aspen.
Nigel, it's not too late to go back and do it right. Get your kid back into your community where he has a support system and get him some evidence-based treatment. It's the right thing to do for your son and your family.
Think about your knee-jerk reaction as well. You sent your kid into a provably abusive situation and only stopped to ask questions later. Kinda upside-down and backwards thinking, don't you agree?
I waited all day for TheWho to put his money where his mouth is and post a clinical study of Aspen's efficacy, but it looks like he punked out when asked the important question. Nigel, take a lesson from this. Asking for evidence makes the salespeople go away post haste...
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Anyone can find an article related to just about any subject. You mentioned ....there’s plethora of evidence that Aspen Ranch hurts and kills victims, yet you post nothing. Where are the lawsuits against Aspen Ranch?
Here I can find a plethora of articles regarding brainwashing, torture and kidnapping at McDonalds. But you cant find any cases of that occurring at Aspen Ranch, can you? Has there ever been a single successful case against Aspen Ranch? Forget your plethora try to find one where Aspen Ranch was found guilty of this stuff. You site articles from your own support sites. Try to site a court case involving Aspen Ranch.
McDonalds and brainwashing
Supporting Link A (http://http://www.thefighting44s.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5300)
McDonalds and torture
Supporting Link B (http://http://vegetarianstar.com/2009/08/25/meatless-mouthful-chrissie-hynde-at-utah-mcdonalds-protest/)
McDonalds and kidnapping
Supporting Link C (http://http://www.thefranchisemall.com/news/articles/21968-0.htm)
I haven’t been able to find where Aspen Ranch has been found guilty of any of these things. Help me out here.
Johnny Reuben, ya lil pisser,ya link to forum discussions of animals abuse, the effect of advertising on kids, and an attempted kidnap of a Mcdonald’s employee.
So “nothing” comes up about McDonalds kidnapping, torturing or brainwashing human beings.
The links guest offered connect to lawsuits, sworn testimonies, media articles, and numerous personal accounts of imprisonment, kidnap, brainwashing, and abuse induced homicides BY Aspen Education, bain capital , crc health.
They disprove your absurd statement that “nothing” can be found about Aspen Education’s policy of abduction, torture, and imprisonment.
Another absurdity? You, John david Reuben, paid Academy at Swift River and SUWS SUWS Wilderness Programs to kidnap, abduct, and torture your kid who later killed himself. Pretty fucking absurd!
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There are obviously a lot of people on this forum that believe The Aspen Ranch (and programs like them) are terrible for kids. I am still continuing to evaluate the whole thing. My question to all of you is: What should I have done instead? To let you know what we did do: we had our son see pyschologists (he liked the one he was seeing, but not taking his advice). We went to a psychiatrist. My son agreed that he was depressed and wanted to try medication. He stopped taking them in January and refused to see another psychiatrist. We had teachers that my son liked try to talk to him, to no avail. We had other family members step in----he listened to them and was polite, but he never took their advice. He had basically failed out of school (he claims he saw no value in it), was running away and relying on pot and lsd and alcohol to get him through the day (this is what my son has said). He claimed he was going to kill himself. As I said before, he was not going to accept my advice or help (he claims I have no idea how he feels and that my advice sucks----our talks have been much more open the last couple of months, but he is still hurting big time and he hates the ranch). Sending him to a relative is probably not realistic as I don't think any of my family is ready to take this on. What would you have done if this was your son. I am open to advice, as he will eventually be coming home and I have to have a game plan that my son will go along with.
Being in the program gave my daughter the time she needed to heal in a safe environment. There were no options at home left that we had not tried. Once she became accustomed to what was expected of her and that she could not break the rules without consequences she began to work on what was important which was herself. She learned to speak openly about what was going on which opened up a whole new type of communication that I was not prepared for. She became an incredible listener and engaged her mother and myself in conversations we never had before....... Open conversations about her drug use, why she dropped out of school, the events leading up to being placed etc. which made laying the ground work for her transition home that much easier and apparent.
Nigel, the struggle you are seeing your son go through is normal as I compare it to what my daughter went thru (it is painful for both of you). I think it is important that you listen to all the stories and advice here on fornits because programs are not effective for all kids. Many of the kids posting here were not helped by the program and like any other treatment there is fallout. This fallout is important to be aware of. There were about 14 kids that where in my daughters group (some outside her peer group) that she kept in contact with and they are all doing fine.. some better than others. So from my experience I can tell you that treatment failure is not the norm, but there are varying degrees of success.
I would caution that when you decide to bring your son home that you have a well defined plan that yourself and your son agree to and that you design a seamless transition to that plan (including a therapist) which does not allow for any “down time” or opportunity to slide backwards. A plan which is structured and understood by both of you... not “your plan” or “his plan” it needs to be mutual.
Questioning your decision is healthy. Stay involved in your son’s treatment like you are now and it will work out eventually no matter what path the two of you choose.
I wish you well
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There are obviously a lot of people on this forum that believe The Aspen Ranch (and programs like them) are terrible for kids. I am still continuing to evaluate the whole thing. My question to all of you is: What should I have done instead? To let you know what we did do: we had our son see pyschologists (he liked the one he was seeing, but not taking his advice). We went to a psychiatrist. My son agreed that he was depressed and wanted to try medication. He stopped taking them in January and refused to see another psychiatrist. We had teachers that my son liked try to talk to him, to no avail. We had other family members step in----he listened to them and was polite, but he never took their advice. He had basically failed out of school (he claims he saw no value in it), was running away and relying on pot and lsd and alcohol to get him through the day (this is what my son has said). He claimed he was going to kill himself. As I said before, he was not going to accept my advice or help (he claims I have no idea how he feels and that my advice sucks----our talks have been much more open the last couple of months, but he is still hurting big time and he hates the ranch). Sending him to a relative is probably not realistic as I don't think any of my family is ready to take this on. What would you have done if this was your son. I am open to advice, as he will eventually be coming home and I have to have a game plan that my son will go along with.
Being in the program gave my daughter the time she needed to heal in a safe environment. There were no options at home left that we had not tried. Once she became accustomed to what was expected of her and that she could not break the rules without consequences she began to work on what was important which was herself. She learned to speak openly about what was going on which opened up a whole new type of communication that I was not prepared for. She became an incredible listener and engaged her mother and myself in conversations we never had before....... Open conversations about her drug use, why she dropped out of school, the events leading up to being placed etc. which made laying the ground work for her transition home that much easier and apparent.
Nigel, the struggle you are seeing your son go through is normal as I compare it to what my daughter went thru (it is painful for both of you). I think it is important that you listen to all the stories and advice here on fornits because programs are not effective for all kids. Many of the kids posting here were not helped by the program and like any other treatment there is fallout. This fallout is important to be aware of. There were about 14 kids that where in my daughters group (some outside her peer group) that she kept in contact with and they are all doing fine.. some better than others. So from my experience I can tell you that treatment failure is not the norm, but there are varying degrees of success.
I would caution that when you decide to bring your son home that you have a well defined plan that yourself and your son agree to and that you design a seamless transition to that plan (including a therapist) which does not allow for any “down time” or opportunity to slide backwards. A plan which is structured and understood by both of you... not “your plan” or “his plan” it needs to be mutual.
Questioning your decision is healthy. Stay involved in your son’s treatment like you are now and it will work out eventually no matter what path the two of you choose.
I wish you well
Any "therapy" said to take place at the Aspen Education Group gulags is " of a clandestine, undefined and unconfirmed nature." No Aspen Education Group gulag has EVER presented ANY authentication of the "therapy" they claim to offer, unlike even the most backwater and resource strained psychiatric hospital.
What HAS been authenticated is abduction, imprisonment, torture , brainwashing, and deliberate torment induced death of detainees. Most of its gulags were formed by, and designed by cultic disciples of CEDU, CEDU itself made of the tactics of Synanon, by Synanite Mel Wasserman. These FACTS have been ascertained through media report, lawsuit, criminal investigation, and are accessible through google and research .
Aspen Education Group has adopted a strategy of google bombing to attempt to keep its crimes from ranking high in earches
It is reasonable to assume that the endless trolling of fornits by John Reuben and co are more attempts by Aspen Education Group to hide their crimes. Their subterfuge fails to make any Aspen program less deadly
http://www.caica.org/SAGEWALK_DEATH_SER ... _CAICA.htm (http://www.caica.org/SAGEWALK_DEATH_SERGEY_BLASHCHISHENA_CAICA.htm)
Teen's lockdown called 'outrage'
Deseret News (Salt Lake City), Oct 11, 2004 by Amy Joi Bryson Deseret Morning News
1 2 Next »
A California teenager who says she was abducted from her home and forcibly placed in a 14-bed lockdown facility in Draper is asking a federal judge to release her, arguing it violates her constitutional rights to liberty, speech and privacy.
Sarah Utterman, who turns 17 today, petitioned U.S. District Judge Paul Cassell for immediate release from Youth Care of Utah Inc., where she has been since August of this year.
The document, filed Wednesday, says Sarah's mother, Anne, paid a "large sum of money" to have the teenager taken from her home and put in the Draper facility after she was expelled from high school.
"The whole thing, as far as I am concerned, is an outrage," said the girl's attorney, Thomas Burton. "Basically, we feel it is unconstitutional to hire someone from out of state to spirit a teenager away to lockdown simply because they do not like what they are doing."
Burton claims the teenager's mother consented to place her daughter in the program on the recommendation of an independent educational consultant "connected" with Youth Care.
Sarah Utterman, the petition says, suffers from Lyme disease and depression and is in need of highly skilled assessment and treatment.
Instead of treatment, however, Burton says Utterman has been cut off from the world and put in a place where teenagers are "incarcerated against their will and without their consent for dubious treatment of a clandestine, undefined and unconfirmed nature."
While he has not seen the petition, a spokesman defended the residential treatment program.
"We feel very strongly it is a well-run, well-operated pro-
gram employing highly qualified, trained staff," said David Terbest, director of consumer affairs for Aspen Education Group, the parent company.
But in his investigation, Burton said he has tried to visit with the teenager and was turned away. In addition, a licensed marriage and family therapist from California who knows Utterman has had her letters returned.
The therapist, Elisabeth Feldman, is the one who brought the petition on the teenager's behalf, saying she is prepared to accept her in her home upon her release.
Terbest said such restrictions are not unusual and it is the parent's enrollment agreement that specifies the nature of the contact the child has, and with whom.
"This litigation sounds frivolous," he said.
Burton, who has gone up against the teen help industry before in civil actions, said he believes the secretive nature of such facilities should raise serious concerns for everyone.
"I can walk into San Quentin, and I have several times, and represent clients who have been involved in serious felonies, and no one can keep me from talking to someone," he said.
Burton added that Utterman, who has no criminal history, would enjoy more rights if she were in juvenile detention.
"If she had been charged with a crime, she'd be a lot better off because at least there would still be some access."
Burton also doubts the credentials of the facility and says for the same amount of money, Utterman could get treatment at the Kennedy- Kreiger Institute connected to John Hopkins University, a pediatric neuropsychiatric hospital in Baltimore, or at the Menninger Medical Center in Topeka, Kan.
"In those cases, you would know exactly the credentials of the people involved in the treatment and what that treatment is. None of that is possible here."
As a teenager nearing 17, Burton said Utterman should be involved in decisions affecting her care and not be under the complete "subjection" of someone else.
"It is a constitutional issue of major proportions."
Burton previously filed suit against the World Wide Association of Speciality Programs, headquartered in Utah.
Although he lost that case brought on behalf of a teenage boy who was held at WWASP's Samoa facility, Burton is appealing.
He was successful in his efforts against a now-defunct Utah Wilderness program in which a 15-year-old California teenager died of dehydration during a "forced march" in an Arizona desert.
Burton was able to obtain a settlement on behalf of the parents.
E-mail: [email protected]
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There are obviously a lot of people on this forum that believe The Aspen Ranch (and programs like them) are terrible for kids. I am still continuing to evaluate the whole thing. My question to all of you is: What should I have done instead? To let you know what we did do: we had our son see pyschologists (he liked the one he was seeing, but not taking his advice). We went to a psychiatrist. My son agreed that he was depressed and wanted to try medication. He stopped taking them in January and refused to see another psychiatrist. We had teachers that my son liked try to talk to him, to no avail. We had other family members step in----he listened to them and was polite, but he never took their advice. He had basically failed out of school (he claims he saw no value in it), was running away and relying on pot and lsd and alcohol to get him through the day (this is what my son has said). He claimed he was going to kill himself. As I said before, he was not going to accept my advice or help (he claims I have no idea how he feels and that my advice sucks----our talks have been much more open the last couple of months, but he is still hurting big time and he hates the ranch). Sending him to a relative is probably not realistic as I don't think any of my family is ready to take this on. What would you have done if this was your son. I am open to advice, as he will eventually be coming home and I have to have a game plan that my son will go along with.
Being in the program gave my daughter the time she needed to heal in a safe environment. There were no options at home left that we had not tried. Once she became accustomed to what was expected of her and that she could not break the rules without consequences she began to work on what was important which was herself. She learned to speak openly about what was going on which opened up a whole new type of communication that I was not prepared for. She became an incredible listener and engaged her mother and myself in conversations we never had before....... Open conversations about her drug use, why she dropped out of school, the events leading up to being placed etc. which made laying the ground work for her transition home that much easier and apparent.
Nigel, the struggle you are seeing your son go through is normal as I compare it to what my daughter went thru (it is painful for both of you). I think it is important that you listen to all the stories and advice here on fornits because programs are not effective for all kids. Many of the kids posting here were not helped by the program and like any other treatment there is fallout. This fallout is important to be aware of. There were about 14 kids that where in my daughters group (some outside her peer group) that she kept in contact with and they are all doing fine.. some better than others. So from my experience I can tell you that treatment failure is not the norm, but there are varying degrees of success.
I would caution that when you decide to bring your son home that you have a well defined plan that yourself and your son agree to and that you design a seamless transition to that plan (including a therapist) which does not allow for any “down time” or opportunity to slide backwards. A plan which is structured and understood by both of you... not “your plan” or “his plan” it needs to be mutual.
Questioning your decision is healthy. Stay involved in your son’s treatment like you are now and it will work out eventually no matter what path the two of you choose.
I wish you well
John Reuben never had a daughter. Remember your sons,John? Max and Mike? Michael was the one you killed through Academy at Swift river and SUWS wilderness programs. Ah, memories...of the son you killed.
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Any "therapy" said to take place at the Aspen Education Group gulags is " of a clandestine, undefined and unconfirmed nature." No Aspen Education Group gulag has EVER presented ANY authentication of the "therapy" they claim to offer, unlike even the most backwater and resource strained psychiatric hospital.
Nigel, Could you confirm this for us? Is you sons therapist qualified and treating your son the same as his therapists prior to Aspen Ranch? or are they unlicensed like we hear on fornits.
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Just a quick note to say the phone call today went well. My son claimed he was going to start "working with the system" and seeing if he felt it was beneficial. I asked him if he was going to do it because he thought it was a good idea, or if it was only to please me, and he replied that it was "a little of both" (I can live with that). He also wrote me a couple of letters this week and both were pretty positive (I asked my son if the people at Aspen Ranch read the letters and he told me that he writes and seals the letters himself). He told me that while he feels a little restricted during our phone calls, that he feels he can write whatever he wants. Reports from the school are that he is putting in a solid effort into his academics and he contributes a lot to class and group discussions. I have another phone call next week and then I visit him in early October. I will contiue to post his progress and let you know my thoughts on The Aspen Ranch.
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That's good to hear he's doing well. Most kids in program do well, despite what you might hear from the few people posting on fornits. If you notice only a couple of people who went to program post here, and most of them were in programs over a decade ago. They have an agenda to discredit any program and even call AA brainwashing. These people are the extreme of the extreme when it come to prohibiting parents from being allowed to get help for their children. You did the right thing Nigel.
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Why do you think posting obvious troll bullshit on page what-the-hell of a topic where you've already been outed as fake is going to accomplish anything?
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FYI, the truth about mail at Aspen ranch -all mail, incoming and outgoing is screened by staff. This Nigel troll is just carefully making his point by not lying directly, but leaving out the obvious. That is, he's intentionally vague as a trolling tactic.
Example: he says his son "seals the envelopes" himself, BUT, what he leaves out is that his son's counselor reads the letter before it goes into the envelope. If it contains any message that Aspen Ranch does not want converyed to the parent, the kid is simply forced to rewrite it as the counselor says or lose the whole letter home. Nigel knows this, but tells the small nugget of truth, that his son physically seals the envelope, albeit with the contents censored.
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FYI, the truth about mail at Aspen ranch -all mail, incoming and outgoing is screened by staff. This Nigel troll is just carefully making his point by not lying directly, but leaving out the obvious. That is, he's intentionally vague as a trolling tactic.
Example: he says his son "seals the envelopes" himself, BUT, what he leaves out is that his son's counselor reads the letter before it goes into the envelope. If it contains any message that Aspen Ranch does not want converyed to the parent, the kid is simply forced to rewrite it as the counselor says or lose the whole letter home. Nigel knows this, but tells the small nugget of truth, that his son physically seals the envelope, albeit with the contents censored.
Maybe his son is already brainwashed and only writes nice things about the program..... lol
Having a tough time swallowing the fact that Aspen isn’t the big bad monster you want people to believe it is?
Nigel’s son is going to be fine. We all know that.
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I know I probably shouldn't respond, but here goes:
In response to:
"FYI, the truth about mail at Aspen ranch -all mail, incoming and outgoing is screened by staff. This Nigel troll is just carefully making his point by not lying directly, but leaving out the obvious. That is, he's intentionally vague as a trolling tactic. "
This is not how it is done right now (whether it used to be done this way, I don't know). My son writes his letters and is not required to show anyone its contents. In previous letters he has complained about The Aspen Ranch and wrote about how horrible it is. I truly beleive that his letters are private and confidential.
As for the fact you think I'm "trolling", as I have said before, I probably can't convince you, so this will be the last time I address that (probably). I am a parent of a current student at Aspen Ranch. I am not an advocate of the school, and at this time I don't know whether I think it was a good decision to send him there or not. I am evaluating the program and I will pull my son the second I think I should. I have been posting here to ask for advice to help my with my own decision making. I will continue to do so for the duration of my son's stay, and will also give updates when he comes home. I have listened and evaluated all the advice I have been given here, and I will continue to do so.
And to this:
"Nigel’s son is going to be fine. We all know that."
I don't know this (although I hope for it on a daily basis).
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2/10 but only for posing as two people that disagree (even if only ever-so-slightly).
Aspen has been well publicized in the past month for killing a couple of kids. I don't say they're "monsters," though. They're child killers. No need for hyperbole.
TheWho posts..."NIGEL" posts...TheWho posts..."NIGEL" posts...and on and on. :beat: :beat: :beat:
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I know I probably shouldn't respond, but here goes:
In response to:
"FYI, the truth about mail at Aspen ranch -all mail, incoming and outgoing is screened by staff. This Nigel troll is just carefully making his point by not lying directly, but leaving out the obvious. That is, he's intentionally vague as a trolling tactic. "
This is not how it is done right now (whether it used to be done this way, I don't know). My son writes his letters and is not required to show anyone its contents. In previous letters he has complained about The Aspen Ranch and wrote about how horrible it is. I truly beleive that his letters are private and confidential.
As for the fact you think I'm "trolling", as I have said before, I probably can't convince you, so this will be the last time I address that (probably). I am a parent of a current student at Aspen Ranch. I am not an advocate of the school, and at this time I don't know whether I think it was a good decision to send him there or not. I am evaluating the program and I will pull my son the second I think I should. I have been posting here to ask for advice to help my with my own decision making. I will continue to do so for the duration of my son's stay, and will also give updates when he comes home. I have listened and evaluated all the advice I have been given here, and I will continue to do so.
And to this:
"Nigel’s son is going to be fine. We all know that."
I don't know this (although I hope for it on a daily basis).
Thanks Nigel. It can be tough to ignore the trolls sometimes, but there are many of us who are interested in your updates and candid posting. We would like you to continue.
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I will continue to do so for the duration of my son's stay, and will also give updates when he comes home. I have listened and evaluated all the advice I have been given here, and I will continue to do so.
I hope so. Regardless of whether or not I agree with your opinions, I do appreciate your input here. Whether or not what you are saying is truthful is up to each individual reader to decide.
I hope Aspen Ranch isn't as bad as some of Aspen's other programs but frankly, i'm not convinced the chances of that are high. Parent corporations of programs tend to dictate a lot of policy. Time will tell. I hope for your son's sake I'm wrong.
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Not sure I can agree with you,psy, on the Aspen Ed group. From some of the information that I have seen Aspen Ranch has had a better track record than Academy at Swift River (ASR) and ASR is a very transparent program with great success among the kids that are accepted there. So if that is any indication then Aspen Ranch is a good pick. Aspen also oversees SUWS of the Carolinas which is a wilderness program and has served as a great alternative to boot camp for struggling teens.
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I will continue to do so for the duration of my son's stay, and will also give updates when he comes home. I have listened and evaluated all the advice I have been given here, and I will continue to do so.
I hope so. Regardless of whether or not I agree with your opinions, I do appreciate your input here. Whether or not what you are saying is truthful is up to each individual reader to decide.
I hope Aspen Ranch isn't as bad as some of Aspen's other programs but frankly, i'm not convinced the chances of that are high. Parent corporations of programs tend to dictate a lot of policy. Time will tell. I hope for your son's sake I'm wrong.
You're talking to it as if it's real? Any particualr reason you don't think it's just another Aspen Education Group troll?
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Not sure I can agree with you,psy, on the Aspen Ed group. From some of the information that I have seen Aspen Ranch has had a better track record than Academy at Swift River (ASR) and ASR is a very transparent program with great success among the kids that are accepted there. So if that is any indication then Aspen Ranch is a good pick. Aspen also oversees SUWS of the Carolinas which is a wilderness program and has served as a great alternative to boot camp for struggling teens.
Editor's note: Each of the above-mentioned programs has killed children in their care. This is spun as "great success." Ask the dead children if they feel successful.
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Hey, Nigel, in light of this admission by AEG lawyers, under oath, in open court, on public record (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28735), how do you feel now about the "treatment" your son is allegedly receiving at Aspen Ranch?
I'm interested to hear your response now that it is indelibly self-admitted by AEG that they provide no treatment or therapy as construed by any legal definition. Or how about the fact that your son's "treatment records" can be willfully disclosed to the police or general public because Aspen, not being a provider of treatment, feels it is exempt from HIPAA laws?
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Hey, Nigel, in light of this admission by AEG lawyers, under oath, in open court, on public record (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=28735), how do you feel now about the "treatment" your son is allegedly receiving at Aspen Ranch?
I'm interested to hear your response now that it is indelibly self-admitted by AEG that they provide no treatment or therapy as construed by any legal definition. Or how about the fact that your son's "treatment records" can be willfully disclosed to the police or general public because Aspen, not being a provider of treatment, feels it is exempt from HIPAA laws?
Whoa!! DJ, your desperation is showing. Nigel can easily check the credentials of his sons therapist. The therapist is licensed and needs to adhere to the HIPPA laws which they do. The counselors and staff who are not licensed do not need to adhere to these (see you misread it, the counselors and staff don’t need to be licensed). Aspen education knows this and you just choose to misinterpret the posting.
You tried to blur the difference between therapist and counselor, DJ, Nice try.
Welcome back!!
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The only thing I can comment on at this point is about what I know. My son's main therapist is licensed. He also sees a licensed psychiatrist. His Therapist runs the show for my son's "team." I am fully aware that there are counselors at the school that are not licensed psychologists. All group discussions are either led by or coordinated by my son's therapist. Is there the possibility that a counselor who isn't licensed might not know the best way to communicate with kids and thus do some harm---obviously (I think the same is true with a licensed professional---the license doesn't necessarily make one perfect). I can let you know what my son has reported. He likes his therapist. He says that some of the counselors are "really cool, they totally understand what I am going through"(his words). He has also stated that there are some counselors that he thinks "hates him," and are thus "holding him back." He hasn't reported anything to me that screams "abuse." In all of my conversations with his therapist, I have been very impressed. Does that mean that I have made up my mind on whether or not The Aspen Ranch is a good fit for my son----NO. To the best of my ability, I am asking questions and checking things out. I am talking to other parents that have kids at the Aspen Ranch. I will continue to check things out and report back.
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You've already lost. The game's over. Why? Why the fuck do you keep trying to convince us you're real? You can't even interact. You have failed the Turing Test. -2/10.
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Whoa!! DJ, your desperation is showing. Nigel can easily check the credentials of his sons therapist. The therapist is licensed and needs to adhere to the HIPPA laws which they do. The counselors and staff who are not licensed do not need to adhere to these (see you misread it, the counselors and staff don’t need to be licensed). Aspen education knows this and you just choose to misinterpret the posting.
The only thing I can comment on at this point is about what I know. My son's main therapist is licensed. He also sees a licensed psychiatrist. His Therapist runs the show for my son's "team." I am fully aware that there are counselors at the school that are not licensed psychologists. All group discussions are either led by or coordinated by my son's therapist. Is there the possibility that a counselor who isn't licensed might not know the best way to communicate with kids and thus do some harm---obviously (I think the same is true with a licensed professional---the license doesn't necessarily make one perfect).
Eh, John Reuben's latest marionette, Nigel-sockpuppet appears to expand on John's rationalization of Aspen Education Group of Torture Chambers failure to provide a licensed therapist for their "patient’s" therapy. Surprise!
Asshole, there‘s no relevant distinction between a "therapist" and "counselor." These terms are fairly interchangeable, and, anyway, to call yourself either one you need to have a LICENSE—something the people overseeing Pence’s "therapy" did not.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_d ... to_possess (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_a_therapist_and_counselor_and_what_kind_of_education_do_they_need_to_possess)
http://www.counselingseattle.com/consumer/2.htm (http://www.counselingseattle.com/consumer/2.htm)
In this case, Aspen education program, plaintiff and judge use the terms "counselor" and "therapist" interchangeably about the woman in question.
NorthStar did not promise to do the things that plaintiffs complain they failed to do, such as provide counseling by a LICENSED counselor
Matthew Pence met with NorthStar COUNSELOR Trudy Godat sometime around 5:00 or 5:30PM on July 2, 2003.
Plaintiffs complain that Matthew Pence was seen by an unlicensed THERAPIST, Trudy Godat
Plaintiffs find the duty of confidentiality in Oregon's confidentiality statute, Oregon statutes regulating professional COUNSELORS, and the federal Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA). Oregon's confidentiality statutes provide only that a confidential relationship is not breached if a disclosure is permitted by state or federal law. Or. Rev. Stat. § 192.523; Or. Rev. Stat. § 192.520. Because she is not a LICENCED COUNSELOR and there is no evidence she is an employee of a licensed counselor, Harless is not subject to confidentiality laws applicable to licensed counselors and their employees.
Aspen Education Group’s whole defense stands on the premise it NEVER promised to, nor it does provide therapeutic treatment conformative to accepted medical practices, that it is not a treatment program for mental or drug disorders, by any legal definition, that the “counseling sessions” it provides are not therapeutic processes, and that the employees that provide them are not licensed therapists or medical personnel enough for it to be libel HIPPA statutess.
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P.S.
Aspen Education Group specifies on its website it does not differentiate between counselor and therapist
http://www.northstarcenter.com/drugtrea ... #honorcode (http://www.northstarcenter.com/drugtreatmentterms.html#honorcode)
definition of Counselor This term is used interchangeably with therapist to indicate the staff member who is primarily responsible for the emotional growth of the student. The counselors meet with students one to two times weekly and work on a wide range of recovery, emotional and family issues
Aspen Education Group specifies on its website it does not differentiate between counseling and therapy
definition of Individual Therapy
This is used interchangeably with counseling. The counselors meet with students one to two times weekly and work on a wide range of recovery, emotional and family issues. A variety of therapy techniques are used depending on the counselor. Due to confidentiality restrictions, what takes place in therapy sessions is between the student and his/her counselor.
Meanwhile states that what is discovered under the treatment process will be kept confidential
Confidentiality
Because the students at NorthStar are legally adults, parents have no access to student files without student permission. Much of the treatment process will be kept confidential from the parents. However, since parents are usually the financial sponsors and must be kept abreast of student's progress for this reason, students agree when enrolling to have general information conveyed to parents
and the "residential treatment staff" are included within that confidentiality rubric." In that rubric were the "clinical directors" and therapists that induced Pence's confession, and then reported to the police.
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Thanks for clearing it up for us Nigel. Sometimes there is confusion around which staff are licensed and which are not.
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If they are a licensed therapist then they need to adhere to HIPPA requirements. If they are not licensed then they do not. Its pretty cut and dried.
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So finally thewho (aka nigel) is forced to admit AEG uses unlicesed therapists. No need to get histrionic. Thewho's credibility is completely destroyed by AEG's confirmation of what we've been saying here for years with whooter consistently and adamantly denying it (lying to parents). Nuff said.
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Ok, you caught me. You guys are brilliant. I am either The Who's "sockpuppet" or I am actually "The Who." I'm also an "asshole"----way to figure that out "guest."
No one from Aspen Ranch has lied to me about what they represent. Whatever issues you all have with other posters "lying" to you, take it up with them. I am only reporting what I know. I would think you would all be happy to have a current parent (oops there I go again, pretending I am not "the who" or a "sockpuppet" or an "asshole"), letting you know what is happening at the Aspen Ranch. I can't speak to what has happened in the past, only about what is happening to my son. As you can see from my former posts, I am being as honest as possible in letting you know what is going on with my son. I will continue to do so.
And to those that warned me not to "feed the trolls"---sorry, I guess I just did.
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Whatever Nige. What about it, who? Your beloved Aspen has admitted it has no therapeutic value. A human parent would be furious to learn that, especially after having a child die after going through the program. John D. Reuben, your son Michael did not get the treatment he needed because you didn't care enough to vet the program you sent him to. Your failure to adequately meet his treatment needs by simply shipping him off to the first available program should weigh heavily on you. A critical opportunity to get Mikey help was botched and he might still be alive if not for your incompetent parenting. How can you still recommend Aspen, you inhuman bastard?
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Has anyone noticed that Guest appears constantly for half the posts and that the time between posts is measured in 4 to 10 minute spans? Is this one person spamming, pretending to be multiple posters giving positive stories about Aspen?
One thing I will always point out to parents is the depth of the incest in these programs. Specifically how staff from one school migrate to another as soon as the last one gets shut down. And the qualifications of these staff are highly dubious.
To give a couple of examples, I went to a CEDU school in the 80's. When I arrived there was a handyman from town who helped the students chop wood. Within a few months he was a therapist. No schooling, no training. Running therapy programs for troubled teens. 20+ students in a room and he's qualified to handle their problems and give therapy? After leaving the school he became an "escort", transporting teens to these programs. He had no training and qualifications for that job either. Later he raped a co-worker, who was also a former staff member at the CEDU school, who was also working in the "escort" business with no background or qualifications to do so. Now this former handyman runs his own wilderness program.
After I had been at the school for about six months the school hired a "chef". This guy had worked in a 2 star restaurant in a small town. Within months he was a therapist as well. Again, no training, no background, no experience. He worked for CEDU. He then went to work for an Aspen school. He now runs his own school.
So do these totally unqualified people do this for the love of kids and a desire to really help them for very low pay? Or do they see the money to be made after a few years as a low level staffer when they get rapidly promoted up the food chain or can secure funding to begin their own programs?
The original poster said he hired an escort to take his child to the Aspen school? Care to enlighten us on the costs of this service?
I recommend the poster check out the CEDU Documentary either on YouTube or at LiamScheff.com. The director of these schools ran Monarch (An Aspen school) and now runs yet another teen treatment facility. Another former director had a son, who back then was probably all of 18, but now runs his own Aspen school as well. And no less than six other former CEDU staff, none of whom had any qualifications to counsel or provide therapy to teens, also migrated to Aspen schools. Parents need to understand that this industry is incestuous in the extreme.
Because so many of these staff migrated over from the CEDU/RMA program, it is important for parents who have sent their kids to an Aspen program, founded by former CEDU staff members, to watch the CEDU Documentary to get some understanding of just how bizarre and abusive the background of these programs have been, during time periods in which the same staff working for Aspen today, worked for CEDU back then. They are the same people. Thus their backgrounds in this industry can be traced from where they began to where they are today. If the founders of Aspen are related to CEDU, you can be assured the current program at Aspen is built upon the same foundations. Abuse, lack of oversight, cult-like settings, remote locations, highly restrictive especially with communications, unable to meet the needs of individual children as advertised. (Meaning any child with actual emotional of developmental issues.) And of course, a long list of untrained staff who claim "life experience" as their sole source of qualifications.
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We are all descendents of the cave men but we have since invented the wheel.... alert!!! Aspen is not CEDU. Sorry, I know it would help your argument but it is 2009. Lets talk about what is happening today.
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Ah, sorry dude, it's called "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it." CEDU staff became Aspen staff, helped found the school itself. Thus CEDU and Aspen are forever linked. Can't get around it.
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Ah, sorry dude, it's called "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it." CEDU staff became Aspen staff, helped found the school itself. Thus CEDU and Aspen are forever linked. Can't get around it.
Exactly so put the gun down, read a book.... lol. We are not still shooting Germans, Japanese or British... Learning from the past is what is meant and lets not repeat it. They didnt mean to keep grinding the axe against people in the past. We should all be cautious but lets not pre judge people because of where they are from.
See what I mean?
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Well, since you want to bring up the World War II references to make your point, how about "Never forget?" They still teach history in schools because important stuff can be gleamed from learning it so you see the pit before you fall in to it.
If you have anything useful to contribute here, we'd love to hear it, because we haven't heard it yet and you have endless posts. Just a little substance goes a long way. I am guessing you are somewhere between 15 and 17 based on the level of your conversation skills. You argue like a teenager, grasping at vague and often unrelated sources to build your straw-man positions. Did you recently leave your Aspen Garden of Eden, all fixed like a stray dog after being thrown in to a kennel?
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Ah, sorry dude, it's called "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it." CEDU staff became Aspen staff, helped found the school itself. Thus CEDU and Aspen are forever linked. Can't get around it.
Exactly so put the gun down, read a book.... lol. We are not still shooting Germans, Japanese or British... Learning from the past is what is meant and lets not repeat it. They didnt mean to keep grinding the axe against people in the past. We should all be cautious but lets not pre judge people because of where they are from.
See what I mean?
No dumbass nobody "sees what you mean, because you mean nothing...well nothing other that to push programming and fucking weak, obvious lies. You are a joke. A sad stupid joke.
RMA your guess is off. It's a troll,but not some kid...It argues like an idiot troll.
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I would say teen troll, and definitely riding the short bus. His language skills are teenage level as are his arguments, such as they are. As you said, nobody knows what he means because most of what he says makes little sense to begin with. He is real quick to demand evidence from everyone, when this is clearly not a site dedicated to providing evidence. But he can't see that. Not capable of that. This is a site for survivors and to educate those who might drop in. If we are discussing how a particular program was abusive, and he loved it, that's all he'd need to say and then leave. Clearly we are not here to argue with him about his love affair with the programs. And he clearly needs a program that pounds sense in to him, and since I have nothing better to do tonight, I felt like being charitable.
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Ah, sorry dude, it's called "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it." CEDU staff became Aspen staff, helped found the school itself. Thus CEDU and Aspen are forever linked. Can't get around it.
Exactly so put the gun down, read a book.... lol. We are not still shooting Germans, Japanese or British... Learning from the past is what is meant and lets not repeat it. They didnt mean to keep grinding the axe against people in the past. We should all be cautious but lets not pre judge people because of where they are from.
See what I mean?
No dumbass nobody "sees what you mean, because you mean nothing...well nothing other that to push programming and fucking weak, obvious lies. You are a joke. A sad stupid joke.
RMA your guess is off. It's a troll,but not some kid...It argues like an idiot troll.
I will take that as you understand my point.
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Again, proper word usage. You needed to use the word Understood, not Understand. I can only help you so much. You have to be willing to make the effort to improve. Nobody will take you seriously with such a poor set of communications skills. And I know at your age, you are desperate for people to take you seriously. All of your posts scream this. And I am here to help you. But you need to work with me.
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Nigel, RMA Survivor brought up an interesting question I too would be curious in having answered:
The original poster said he hired an escort to take his child to the Aspen school? Care to enlighten us on the costs of this service?
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I recommend the poster check out the CEDU Documentary either on YouTube or at LiamScheff.com. The director of these schools ran Monarch (An Aspen school) and now runs yet another teen treatment facility. Another former director had a son, who back then was probably all of 18, but now runs his own Aspen school as well. And no less than six other former CEDU staff, none of whom had any qualifications to counsel or provide therapy to teens, also migrated to Aspen schools. Parents need to understand that this industry is incestuous in the extreme.
Because so many of these staff migrated over from the CEDU/RMA program, it is important for parents who have sent their kids to an Aspen program, founded by former CEDU staff members, to watch the CEDU Documentary to get some understanding of just how bizarre and abusive the background of these programs have been, during time periods in which the same staff working for Aspen today, worked for CEDU back then. They are the same people. Thus their backgrounds in this industry can be traced from where they began to where they are today. If the founders of Aspen are related to CEDU, you can be assured the current program at Aspen is built upon the same foundations. Abuse, lack of oversight, cult-like settings, remote locations, highly restrictive especially with communications, unable to meet the needs of individual children as advertised. (Meaning any child with actual emotional of developmental issues.) And of course, a long list of untrained staff who claim "life experience" as their sole source of qualifications.
Also, definitely watch some of these YouTube clips, Nigel; it's a very good suggestion. Seeing and hearing someone describe some of this material gives it a whole different nuance that just doesn't always come through in print.
Links for the clips are about three screens worth down THIS page (http://http://liamscheff.com/daily/cedu-documentary/) (it's a very long page).
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We are all descendents of the cave men but we have since invented the wheel.... alert!!! Aspen is not CEDU. Sorry, I know it would help your argument but it is 2009. Lets talk about what is happening today.
Ah, sorry dude, it's called "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it." CEDU staff became Aspen staff, helped found the school itself. Thus CEDU and Aspen are forever linked. Can't get around it.
Great comeback, RMA Survivor! One thing ya might not have known is, Whooter is already well-versed in the intertwining of CEDU with Aspen's early days. After all, he professes great admiration for, and sometimes even personal friendship or acquaintance with, Rudy Bentz.
Among the several institutions Rudy worked for are ... Academy at Swift River, and Hidden Lake Academy.
Oddly enough, this John Reuben character people keep talking about had one of his sons at ASR, and the other son at HLA. Fancy that! :D
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We are all descendents of the cave men but we have since invented the wheel.... alert!!! Aspen is not CEDU. Sorry, I know it would help your argument but it is 2009. Lets talk about what is happening today.
Ah, sorry dude, it's called "Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it." CEDU staff became Aspen staff, helped found the school itself. Thus CEDU and Aspen are forever linked. Can't get around it.
Great comeback, RMA Survivor! One thing ya might not have known is, Whooter is already well-versed in the intertwining of CEDU with Aspen's early days. After all, he professes great admiration for, and sometimes even personal friendship or acquaintance with, Rudy Bentz.
Among the several institutions Rudy worked for are ... Academy at Swift River, and Hidden Lake Academy.
Oddly enough, this John Reuben character people keep talking about had one of his sons at ASR, and the other son at HLA. Fancy that! :D
Hmmm, that's unlikely to be merely a coincidence...
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RMA Survivor wrote:
The original poster said he hired an escort to take his child to the Aspen school? Care to enlighten us on the costs of this service?
The escort service I hired charged $2500. This price payed for two escorts and my son to fly to SLC, Utah. I am sure a rental car was required. I am not sure if the escorts came from out of town, so their flights might have been roundtrip. The escorts bought my son breakfast and lunch and some magazines to read on the plane. I was there when they picked my son up, and I thought they did a very good job (they explained everything to my son before they left and they treated him with respect). I have since asked my son about the whole journey and he said that the escorts were nice to him (I'm sure they are nice because they don't want any trouble). I have also talked to my son about his emotions during this ordeal, and he said he was "beyond angry" with me at first. He vowed never to talk to me or see me again. Since then (over the last 2.5 months), he now claims that he desperately wants our relationship to get better and he wants to come home. I am working on being a better Dad and I am letting him know the things I am doing to acheive this. He has also been very open about telling me that he knows he screwed up and that he wants help (just not at the aspen ranch).
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The escort service I hired charged $2500. This price payed for two escorts and my son to fly to SLC, Utah. I am sure a rental car was required. I am not sure if the escorts came from out of town, so their flights might have been roundtrip. The escorts bought my son breakfast and lunch and some magazines to read on the plane. I was there when they picked my son up, and I thought they did a very good job (they explained everything to my son before they left and they treated him with respect). I have since asked my son about the whole journey and he said that the escorts were nice to him (I'm sure they are nice because they don't want any trouble). I have also talked to my son about his emotions during this ordeal, and he said he was "beyond angry" with me at first. He vowed never to talk to me or see me again. Since then (over the last 2.5 months), he now claims that he desperately wants our relationship to get better and he wants to come home. I am working on being a better Dad and I am letting him know the things I am doing to acheive this. He has also been very open about telling me that he knows he screwed up and that he wants help (just not at the aspen ranch).
I am one who believes that teens can receive a "wake-up call". When a kid shoplifts and gets caught and spends a week in juvenile hall or something, it is often a quick method of letting them see the light regarding their behavior. You were a teen once too, so you know kids screw up, take risks, are heavily influenced by peer pressure to take actions you would not want them to. In my own life, my parents were upset that I didn't do all my homework. I still passed my classes, but the homework was their issue. And for not completing it all, I wound up at Rocky Mountain Academy for two years. It was not an appropriate place for me. I had no emotional issues. I had no drug issues. I never drank. I basically did not get in to trouble. Yet Rocky Mountain Academy claimed to be able to cure me. These places do not offer treatment, they have no professional experience and the in my situation, the education system there was so lacking in normal structure and content that even though there would be no homework given, the classes taken would never have prepared me for college had I not already been prepared before arriving.
Reading your original post, your sons situation sounds like those of many kids sent to these places. Drugs, lack of performance in school and in life, taking risks. It is not true that most students discuss wanting to come right away after the parents first visit. I am surprised actually that he felt comfortable doing this. My experience is that the staff play the students and parents off on each other. Telling parents one thing, the student another. The staff often try and create confusion, and in fact are typically the first ones to state that the child may offer up stories of abuse that are simply a form of manipulation and are wholly untrue, often before the student has ever expressed such things. I know in my days in the CEDU system, all of the parents were warned. But I don't know if the staff warned you of manipulation, or if your child came to you on their own and told you his stories. The problem for many of us here on Fornits is that we would believe such stories to likely be truthful. A lot of very strange things happen at these places. Perhaps you might share a little more on what your son told you, so we can match it against stories we might have heard many times before?
I know you are desperately trying to help your son and many of us sincerely want to help in any way we can. Finding the root cause to your sons issues is important. Depression is very common, but what is causing the depression has to be determined before any forward progress can really be made. The drug use and suicide concerns are probably byproducts of that depression, thus the depression is the focus. What sort of professional counseling did you get your son before sending him to Aspen Ranch? I would imagine at least one trained psychologist or psychiatrist.
The reason these Wilderness Programs work as a form of drug rehab is that they strip search students, search footlockers and are so remotely located that access to such substances is limited. But if the cause for the drug use is not removed, your son could go the next five years without using a single drug, come home and go right back to using, and feeling suicidal soon after, because the depression is still present.
I see that you have two problems. First is the fact your son is suffering from depression and his coming home should be dependent upon his agreeing to undergo treatment. Second, your son is currently in a program that falsely advertises that it treats people, when it does not, and is likely to damage your son further because none of these programs is lacking in mental abuse, which your son clearly does not need. Humiliation is a deep part of these programs, and a person suffering from depression needs none of that. You need to spend a lot of time with your son. You need to find out from his mouth what is troubling him, and understand he may have trouble expressing what it is. There is a child Health Council at Stanford University that can test and offer a clinical evaluation, offering recommending specific avenues for treatment including whether a counselor chosen should be male or female. They can identify strengths and weaknesses and state of mind. Finding out what is causing this depression and treating it is probably what will "save" your son. But keep in mind, we were all teens once. There is a phase many of us go through where we doubt ourselves, don't think we will amount to everything we dreamed we would be when we were eight years old, are unsure of our sexuality and so on. But turning eighteen and standing on a college campus with adults is a wake up call in and of itself. Surrounded by mature people, many of our life decisions change when we see other role models around us. So as your son ages, he is likely to survive just fine as his environment and experiences change. Your son really sounds like a typical teenager. If you can get to the root of his depression, really get to know him personally and what his fears and his dreams are, you can give him the help he needs. There is nobody on this earth who is more important in this process than his parents. You have known your son longer than anyone, you have a much deeper interest in his success than anyone besides himself. This is why sending him away is less valuable than being there for him every day.
Your son wants to come home. Because he wants this, you are in a position to explain to him what you want. And that is for him to commit to working with you to get his depression treated. And tell him it is 100% normal for him to experience depression. Don't ostracize him. He needs to know his problems can be solved and that you are there to make that happen and that it will take his commitment as well to ensure success. Involve him in the process and get directly involved yourself. When the depression is under control, the drugs and the suicidal thoughts will be under control as well. And there is nothing more powerful than being in control of ones self.
I wish you and your son the best of luck.
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The escort service I hired charged $2500. This price payed for two escorts and my son to fly to SLC, Utah. I am sure a rental car was required. I am not sure if the escorts came from out of town, so their flights might have been roundtrip. The escorts bought my son breakfast and lunch and some magazines to read on the plane. I was there when they picked my son up, and I thought they did a very good job (they explained everything to my son before they left and they treated him with respect). I have since asked my son about the whole journey and he said that the escorts were nice to him (I'm sure they are nice because they don't want any trouble). I have also talked to my son about his emotions during this ordeal, and he said he was "beyond angry" with me at first. He vowed never to talk to me or see me again. Since then (over the last 2.5 months), he now claims that he desperately wants our relationship to get better and he wants to come home. I am working on being a better Dad and I am letting him know the things I am doing to acheive this. He has also been very open about telling me that he knows he screwed up and that he wants help (just not at the aspen ranch).
I am one who believes that teens can receive a "wake-up call". When a kid shoplifts and gets caught and spends a week in juvenile hall or something, it is often a quick method of letting them see the light regarding their behavior. You were a teen once too, so you know kids screw up, take risks, are heavily influenced by peer pressure to take actions you would not want them to. In my own life, my parents were upset that I didn't do all my homework. I still passed my classes, but the homework was their issue. And for not completing it all, I wound up at Rocky Mountain Academy for two years. It was not an appropriate place for me. I had no emotional issues. I had no drug issues. I never drank. I basically did not get in to trouble. Yet Rocky Mountain Academy claimed to be able to cure me. These places do not offer treatment, they have no professional experience and the in my situation, the education system there was so lacking in normal structure and content that even though there would be no homework given, the classes taken would never have prepared me for college had I not already been prepared before arriving.
Reading your original post, your sons situation sounds like those of many kids sent to these places. Drugs, lack of performance in school and in life, taking risks. It is not true that most students discuss wanting to come right away after the parents first visit. I am surprised actually that he felt comfortable doing this. My experience is that the staff play the students and parents off on each other. Telling parents one thing, the student another. The staff often try and create confusion, and in fact are typically the first ones to state that the child may offer up stories of abuse that are simply a form of manipulation and are wholly untrue, often before the student has ever expressed such things. I know in my days in the CEDU system, all of the parents were warned. But I don't know if the staff warned you of manipulation, or if your child came to you on their own and told you his stories. The problem for many of us here on Fornits is that we would believe such stories to likely be truthful. A lot of very strange things happen at these places. Perhaps you might share a little more on what your son told you, so we can match it against stories we might have heard many times before?
I know you are desperately trying to help your son and many of us sincerely want to help in any way we can. Finding the root cause to your sons issues is important. Depression is very common, but what is causing the depression has to be determined before any forward progress can really be made. The drug use and suicide concerns are probably byproducts of that depression, thus the depression is the focus. What sort of professional counseling did you get your son before sending him to Aspen Ranch? I would imagine at least one trained psychologist or psychiatrist.
The reason these Wilderness Programs work as a form of drug rehab is that they strip search students, search footlockers and are so remotely located that access to such substances is limited. But if the cause for the drug use is not removed, your son could go the next five years without using a single drug, come home and go right back to using, and feeling suicidal soon after, because the depression is still present.
I see that you have two problems. First is the fact your son is suffering from depression and his coming home should be dependent upon his agreeing to undergo treatment. Second, your son is currently in a program that falsely advertises that it treats people, when it does not, and is likely to damage your son further because none of these programs is lacking in mental abuse, which your son clearly does not need. Humiliation is a deep part of these programs, and a person suffering from depression needs none of that. You need to spend a lot of time with your son. You need to find out from his mouth what is troubling him, and understand he may have trouble expressing what it is. There is a child Health Council at Stanford University that can test and offer a clinical evaluation, offering recommending specific avenues for treatment including whether a counselor chosen should be male or female. They can identify strengths and weaknesses and state of mind. Finding out what is causing this depression and treating it is probably what will "save" your son. But keep in mind, we were all teens once. There is a phase many of us go through where we doubt ourselves, don't think we will amount to everything we dreamed we would be when we were eight years old, are unsure of our sexuality and so on. But turning eighteen and standing on a college campus with adults is a wake up call in and of itself. Surrounded by mature people, many of our life decisions change when we see other role models around us. So as your son ages, he is likely to survive just fine as his environment and experiences change. Your son really sounds like a typical teenager. If you can get to the root of his depression, really get to know him personally and what his fears and his dreams are, you can give him the help he needs. There is nobody on this earth who is more important in this process than his parents. You have known your son longer than anyone, you have a much deeper interest in his success than anyone besides himself. This is why sending him away is less valuable than being there for him every day.
Your son wants to come home. Because he wants this, you are in a position to explain to him what you want. And that is for him to commit to working with you to get his depression treated. And tell him it is 100% normal for him to experience depression. Don't ostracize him. He needs to know his problems can be solved and that you are there to make that happen and that it will take his commitment as well to ensure success. Involve him in the process and get directly involved yourself. When the depression is under control, the drugs and the suicidal thoughts will be under control as well. And there is nothing more powerful than being in control of ones self.
I wish you and your son the best of luck.
Nigel is a sockpuppet of theIT. pay him no attention
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I happen to like sock puppets. As for Nigel being one, I could care less. The man is asking for advice about his son, and I will provide what I can. If you don't like it, don't read about it.
As for the comments that there are trolls who work or are related to the Aspen group itself posting here, I know. And I don't think many parents coming to this site see them any differently. It may be helpful to have their posts here. Except people often don't realize that this is a forum to primarily discuss the programs from a survivor point of view. I have no idea why those who claim the programs were miraculous cures find a need to come here. Clearly we do not share their views and never will. As such, they come off as people who are "Born again Christians" who find a need to spout off about their new relationship with God rather than just enjoying it for themselves. Or people who graduate Basic Training who come out and start ragging on their friends for being so lazy and having no sense of spirit or patriotism. If they have it, power to them. For some of us, the programs were not quite as advertised. And as we have come to learn recently, or rather to have confirmed recently, Aspen and likely all of the other programs were intentionally deceiving parents, and thus the students as well, that they offered some sort of cure or treatment, and we now know what we have known. That was all bullshit.
So the parents who come to this site can see for themselves what is true and what is not. Though we are mainly about the negative aspects of the programs here, parents have a chance to see that, get some information to work with to make better decisions for their kids. Something all of us hope happens. But they can spot the trolls and the program puppets who post here. They are not hiding their love affair with the programs. And we are not hiding our views either.
It really warms my heart every time I see a parent posting here. It shows they are taking the time to research, when many of our own parents did not. There is so much greater access to information today than back in the days when I went to Rocky Mountain Academy. Though I often worry that some of our rants come off as teenage arguments rather than strong, mature and full of useful information. But the parents who come to this site... I give them more credit, and assume they can read through the clutter of rants and understand that there are lot of survivors posting here for a reason, and that we do bring a lot of documentation of the criminal activities and deceptive practices these programs are all about. And we are all witnesses. We went through the programs, we have first hand experiences. And if a parent, such as Nigel, is saying his son is giving him stories about what is happening at Aspen Ranch, if Nigel is able to find similar accounts here, that validates what his son told him, it builds trust between them, and it also validates what we discuss here.
Most of us on Fornits feel that if we save one teen from attending such a program, or get one teen out, we have accomplished something fantastic. We are not wishy washy regarding our view of Aspen and other programs. We feel sincerely that these facilities lie about what they offer, have no formal training to accomplish what they claim to be able to, that many of the staff have committed serious crimes before and during their days as counselors and have no business working with kids. We know these staff have worked for other failed programs, migrating from one to another and even founding their own programs despite having no qualifications to do so. And if parents come here and find these things out for themselves while also hearing some of our war stories, all is well. I trust that they wouldn't be here to begin with unless they had a serious and unwavering desire to get every piece of available information on helping their child. And I am here to offer what I can.
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Nigel is a sockpuppet of theIT. pay him no attention
Who cares? What difference would it make if he was?
Even if Nigel were actually a troll, how would that change his providing a venue of discussion for getting the word out, as to what "the real deal" is, as far as these programs are concerned?
Do ya think this here is a private conversation strictly between actual participants on fornits? Guess again! This is the internet. Everyone is free to read what is posted here.
Whether Nigel is actually a parent or not, some (more) actual parents will come along soon enough, and might actually learn something from what is posted here. Your attempts to squelch dialogue because you think he is a bogeyman would serve only to hinder that.
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lol. “attempts to squelch speech.”
I’m sure guest has a gun to you head or is drafting a law as we speak
Internet? Check. Semi delusional references to attempts of “silencing” speech? Check. You have yourself a forum.
Ok, so trolls will be fed…bot remember, talking to it like its real (its not) gives its wacko story about Aspen Ranch being a well run facility a level of believability.…the tack you're taking may not be the right one. So says the internet with whom I am intimately familiar
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No, the idea was to educate others on the fact the guy is an Aspen Cheer Leader. Keep in mind, as public as this Fornits site is, the general population here are clearly anti-Teen Prison Camp. And some of us like to know who the Guests are who Cheer lead for these programs are just so we know where they are coming from.
Parents are quite welcome to come here as is anyone else. But they soon tend to learn this is an anti-program site. We are not in favor of anyone attending these programs. And when "experts" show up as Guests, and claim all the programs are the miraculous cures they are advertised to be, some of us want to shut down their arguments. It's a game. Sometimes the threads on survivor stories or current horror stories go dead and these sock puppets provide a useful distraction of allowing us to talk trash to each other. We know what they are about, they know what we are about. So when someone is being outed as a sock puppet and mouthpiece for these programs, some of us like to have that information and some of us like to engage them. Parents who come to this site are fully capable of figuring out who is who and what this site is about. And if they learn something that helps them to get the best care for their children, sweet! Most of just don't feel these programs are the source to provide that. But stick around longer and you might figure this all out yourself.
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Nigel is a sockpuppet of theIT. pay him no attention
Who cares? What difference would it make if he was?
Even if Nigel were actually a troll, how would that change his providing a venue of discussion for getting the word out, as to what "the real deal" is, as far as these programs are concerned?
Do ya think this here is a private conversation strictly between actual participants on fornits? Guess again! This is the internet. Everyone is free to read what is posted here.
Whether Nigel is actually a parent or not, some (more) actual parents will come along soon enough, and might actually learn something from what is posted here. Your attempts to squelch dialogue because you think he is a bogeyman would serve only to hinder that.
Why not be a little open minded and listen to a parents point of view of what is going on inside Aspen Ranch "Today" and his son who is actually giving information "real Time". Why not try to get a little insight, learn something up to date.... it seems that they are allowing kids to write letters home without them being read by staff. Isnt this something that fornits has been fighting for? Why not be happy with these little accomplishments. Maybe fornits had something to do with this change!! Its an opportunity to gather more info inside of programs, lets not burn that bridge to the information by chasing Nigel away. There are many of us who are very interested in hearing about his and his sons journey.
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NIGEL said earlier that he has not yet visited Aspen Ranch. How can he possibly comment on what goes on behind closed doors of a facility he's never seen? Right now all NIGEL knows is what Aspen Ranch tells him. Nothing more.
This is also said with full knowledge NIGEL is simply a sock-puppet of TheWho.
Remember NIGEL told us he sent his kid to Aspen Ranch without knowing anything about it? Now, after not knowing anything and not ever setting foot on the premises, NIGEL is all of a sudden some kind of "inside source" of Aspen Ranch information? That's a joke, and the sock-puppeteer, John Rueben, fails epicly once more.
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NIGEL said earlier that he has not yet visited Aspen Ranch. How can he possibly comment on what goes on behind closed doors of a facility he's never seen? Right now all NIGEL knows is what Aspen Ranch tells him. Nothing more.
This is also said with full knowledge NIGEL is simply a sock-puppet of TheWho.
Remember NIGEL told us he sent his kid to Aspen Ranch without knowing anything about it? Now, after not knowing anything and not ever setting foot on the premises, NIGEL is all of a sudden some kind of "inside source" of Aspen Ranch information? That's a joke, and the sock-puppeteer, John Rueben, fails epicly once more.
He knows through his son who he speaks with once a week and received letters from him. Why not listen to what they have to say? Its not going to hurt to hear an updated account or what the previous poster said:
Why not be a little open minded and listen to a parents point of view of what is going on inside Aspen Ranch "Today" and his son who is actually giving information "real Time". Why not try to get a little insight, learn something up to date.... it seems that they are allowing kids to write letters home without them being read by staff. Isnt this something that fornits has been fighting for? Why not be happy with these little accomplishments. Maybe fornits had something to do with this change!! Its an opportunity to gather more info inside of programs, lets not burn that bridge to the information by chasing Nigel away. There are many of us who are very interested in hearing about his and his sons journey.
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NIGEL said earlier that he has not yet visited Aspen Ranch. How can he possibly comment on what goes on behind closed doors of a facility he's never seen? Right now all NIGEL knows is what Aspen Ranch tells him. Nothing more.
This is also said with full knowledge NIGEL is simply a sock-puppet of TheWho.
Remember NIGEL told us he sent his kid to Aspen Ranch without knowing anything about it? Now, after not knowing anything and not ever setting foot on the premises, NIGEL is all of a sudden some kind of "inside source" of Aspen Ranch information? That's a joke, and the sock-puppeteer, John Rueben, fails epicly once more.
I agree with this. How can NIGEL have gone from completely ignorant about the program to knowing all the inside details when he admits he's never been there at all, ever? The story is too fishy to be a real person.
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NIGEL said earlier that he has not yet visited Aspen Ranch. How can he possibly comment on what goes on behind closed doors of a facility he's never seen? Right now all NIGEL knows is what Aspen Ranch tells him. Nothing more.
This is also said with full knowledge NIGEL is simply a sock-puppet of TheWho.
Remember NIGEL told us he sent his kid to Aspen Ranch without knowing anything about it? Now, after not knowing anything and not ever setting foot on the premises, NIGEL is all of a sudden some kind of "inside source" of Aspen Ranch information? That's a joke, and the sock-puppeteer, John Rueben, fails epicly once more.
I agree with this. How can NIGEL have gone from completely ignorant about the program to knowing all the inside details when he admits he's never been there at all, ever? The story is too fishy to be a real person.
He has a son who is there and they speak every week. Now go back and close your eyes and and ears and remember the past when the programs were this evil entity and keep repeating over and over "Dont listen to facts, stick with the fantasy.... I remember the Hobbit ,the host families and the 300 lb counselors who would sit on me.. all programs are the same"...."Dont listen to facts, stick with the fantasy.... I remember the Hobbit, the host families and the 300 lb counselors who would sit on me.. all programs are the same".... Dont listen to facts, stick with the fantasy.... I remember the Hobbit, the host families and the 300 lb counselors who would sit on me.. all programs are the same"..Dont listen to facts, stick with the fantasy.... I remember the Hobbit, the host families and the 300 lb counselors who would sit on me.. all programs are the same"..[/size] SSSSLLLEEEEEPPPPP
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So, talking to his son on the phone makes him privvy to inside information? I don't think so. He said his kid was sent there for drinking/drugging/lying. So now a second-hand conversation between a "parent" and his lying son suffices for "evidence" for you Whooter? You have very, very low standards. And you now have flip-flopped from disregarding the lying children's stories to taking a second-hand account from a lying kid as fact. Fine if you want to. But don't expect anyone else to buy it. It's laughable in fact.
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Not to mention that Whooter is the hand in the sock-puppet called NIGEL.
TheWho is just flailing away for the last week or so. his trolls are so low-quality that he just gets beaten down every time he posts.
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So, talking to his son on the phone makes him privvy to inside information? I don't think so. He said his kid was sent there for drinking/drugging/lying. So now a second-hand conversation between a "parent" and his lying son suffices for "evidence" for you Whooter? You have very, very low standards. And you now have flip-flopped from disregarding the lying children's stories to taking a second-hand account from a lying kid as fact. Fine if you want to. But don't expect anyone else to buy it. It's laughable in fact.
Ha,Ha,Ha so now you are saying that survivors lie about their time inside the program. Interesting... well we will have to wait until Nigel gets home from his trip to Aspen Ranch and get his first hand account then..... but thats funny, its the first time any of you admitted that you lie about your experiences.
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So, talking to his son on the phone makes him privvy to inside information? I don't think so. He said his kid was sent there for drinking/drugging/lying. So now a second-hand conversation between a "parent" and his lying son suffices for "evidence" for you Whooter? You have very, very low standards. And you now have flip-flopped from disregarding the lying children's stories to taking a second-hand account from a lying kid as fact. Fine if you want to. But don't expect anyone else to buy it. It's laughable in fact.
Ha,Ha,Ha so now you are saying that survivors lie about their time inside the program. Interesting... well we will have to wait until Nigel gets home from his trip to Aspen Ranch and get his first hand account then..... but thats funny, its the first time any of you admitted that you lie about your experiences.
No, we're just pointing out that you call all program kids liars and now you make claims of fact based on second-hand accounts of people you call liars.
Not that it matters, since you are NIGEL and the story is ficticious. It's just funny to watch you contradict yourself every couple of minutes and flip-flop like a fish out of water. You only make yourself look bad.
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So, talking to his son on the phone makes him privvy to inside information? I don't think so. He said his kid was sent there for drinking/drugging/lying. So now a second-hand conversation between a "parent" and his lying son suffices for "evidence" for you Whooter? You have very, very low standards. And you now have flip-flopped from disregarding the lying children's stories to taking a second-hand account from a lying kid as fact. Fine if you want to. But don't expect anyone else to buy it. It's laughable in fact.
Ha,Ha,Ha so now you are saying that survivors lie about their time inside the program. Interesting... well we will have to wait until Nigel gets home from his trip to Aspen Ranch and get his first hand account then..... but thats funny, its the first time any of you admitted that you lie about your experiences.
Thats incredible that we see a post like that. I have to agree it is the first time I've seen survivors openly called liars about thier stories in the program here on fornits. Only someone like Bruce would make a screwed up post like that. I dont think it is anything to laugh at, like you do, but lordy it is fucked up.
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I am no expert on the Aspen Ranch. I am just a parent trying to get help for my son.
I have been to the Ranch in late August (I reported about my visit in this forum). Does this make me an expert----by all means NO. I am heading back on Oct. 11th and 12th for my next visit. I am hoping to be able to take my son off campus for either lunch or dinner (he is on the verge of making the next level, which would allow me to take him out for 2 hours).
To RMA, thanks for your advice. I am reading and then re-reading your posts. I might come back with some questions for you.
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Good luck with everything Nigel. I just find it peculiar that any parent would allow a school he or she is paying for to dictate how long you can visit with your son. I think if you want to spend more time with him, tell them, demand it. If you don't think it will forever mess your son up to spend more time with him than a school dictates, do it. If you are planning on removing your son, take charge now. But it doesn't have to be a conflict. You are the parent and you should be able to spend more time with your son if you decide to.
Two hours? I think right now a longer period is warranted so you can listen to his stories, hear him out, let him give you his thoughts about "where he is at right now" and what he wants to do. It is far more important for you to know what these things are than for the school to limit your time regardless of what level he has achieved. Also, if your son sees that you are going out of your way to spend more time, regardless of what the school thinks, this may help strengthen a bond between you and build some trust when he sees you want to hear him out and trust him. But keep in mind, students have often been punished for the actions of their parents. I know of a student whose parents sent them a care package and the student went on Work Details and was put on Bans from speaking for a month because they couldn't punish the parent. But sometimes parents need to find these things out for themselves first hand.
Again, good luck Nigel.
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RMA , A Confrontation like that is never good. Its better to try to understand the rules a little better and ask questions. If after you have a discussion with the school you feel the 2 hours is not enough or unjust then you can speak your feelings too.
But as a parent its never good to just barge into the local public school (for example) and demand to speak with your child or ask for a longer lunch period. There are schedules. The rules are not made to piss people off.
I also had to go thru the same thing with my daughter and we got time off campus alone (don’t remember how long) and we had lunch. They were not strict about the two hours but it was structured that way because during the parents visit there is a lot going on with the parents and the students during a very short visit.. activities, separate and together. I found the time together really nice and we spent the time well catching up on things. We were still able to talk/visit and catch-up at other times during my visit on campus. So don’t think you will only get 2 hours with him, Nigel.
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But you don't have a daughter, John. You have two sons and one is dead. He was killed by your negligence and Aspen's unlicensed 'therapists'.
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But you don't have a daughter, John. You have two sons and one is dead. He was killed by your negligence and Aspen's unlicensed 'therapists'.
Ha,Ha,Ha, Bruce you are so predictable when you get owned. You are so desperate to get theis guy John that you make yourself look foolish. Next time read the links before speaking out and you wont step in it as much (just a helpful hint)
Okay, Carry on! Sorry to derail.
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The point is that Nigel has explained that his son has things he wants to discuss and that Nigel wants to listen to. And Nigel should be clear on his authority as a parent to demand at any time whatsoever his right to speak to his child for any length of time he desires and without explanation. Whether Aspen will grant him more than two hours if irrelevant. Nigel is the parent. Aspen has no claim to authority over a parental visit, or authority to even suggest limitations. Nigel should be able to phone, say he is coming up to spend some time with his son, and Aspen should know that will be for however long Nigel decides. Considering the son is essentially imprisoned at the ranch, there is clearly plenty of time for Aspen and the son to discuss the visit later. But when Nigel goes up there, Aspen should know that the visit will be for however long the parent decides and the parent does not need to explain that. Additionally, Nigel should be able to call the school at any time and arrange an immediate visit. Not this two or three month waiting period, but immediately upon his desire to see his child. No school has any authority to restrict that in any way, shape, or form, no matter how "structured" or "restrictive" the program is.
Clearly Nigel and his wife have some concerns. I think it is awesome that Nigel didn't simply ship his son away and ignore him. Nigel is going to the campus again to meet with his son, and they will discuss whatever they feel like discussing. I think the topic should address the son's depression issues. I think this is the most important topic and if somehow the son can get this issue in his life dealt with successfully, son and parents can both enjoy an amazing and happy life together.
I personally believe Nigel is the real deal. I tend to analyze writing styles to determine if someone is playing at being someone else. And for Nigel, one thing you might notice in this thread you started is that the "Guests" who are all pro-program seem to all post within minutes of each other. About the exact amount of time it would take one poster to post a "story" or comment, and then write another. Just look at Page 1 and you will see after your post that suddenly three pro-program comments followed soon after, and all within 4 minutes of each other. Clearly there are people here who are legitimate, and the bulk of those are not shy in saying they are anti-program. But with just a little looking it is easy to tell who is trying to manipulate you and who is not.
And for the others, clearly Nigel said in his very opening comment that he had visited his son in August. So he has been to the campus and over a couple of months has spoken to his son repeatedly, which is why these concerns came up to begin with. There is clearly a sock puppet at work in this thread but I do not believe it is Nigel.
And Nigel, whatever questions you have, I am here to give the best answers I can.
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And for Nigel, one thing you might notice in this thread you started is that the "Guests" who are all pro-program seem to all post within minutes of each other. About the exact amount of time it would take one poster to post a "story" or comment, and then write another. Just look at Page 1 and you will see after your post that suddenly three pro-program comments followed soon after, and all within 4 minutes of each other. Clearly there are people here who are legitimate, and the bulk of those are not shy in saying they are anti-program. But with just a little looking it is easy to tell who is trying to manipulate you and who is not.
RMA, Most of those earlier posts, that you speak of, were mine. They were taken from another "Aspen Ranch" Thread and thought they would apply here. The time delay was the time it took to find, locate and cut and paste them from one forum to the next. But they were all posts from kids who attended Aspen Ranch or their parents. If its a big issue I can go back and supply links.
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It would only be an issue that you are spamming other peoples posts in a manner that suggest they were commenting on this thread. If ahead of this spam you had specifically said in a post that you are going to copy the posts of other people to this thread so as to suggest that there are people who are Pro-Program like yourself, that might have been proper. But the way you did it gave off the impression that others were adding to this thread when in fact only you were. And you seem to post endlessly and speak for others. And because you post so much, it would be far more appropriate if you actually took a fraction of the time you use to spam new posts and actually came up with a name for yourself so we can more easily identify you. That way it doesn't continue to appear to be random guests replying to these threads when in fact it is only a single person; you.
The fact you post as a guest and clearly spam, is why nobody takes you very seriously. And since this is an anti-program site, why do you bother coming here? Why don't you form your own site for Pro-Program people and live there? Do you really crave attention this much? Was this a problem Aspen failed to cure you of? Or did you try and build a Pro-Program site and nobody showed up but you? This might explain your multiple personalities as you were probably left talking to yourself there as well.
Go get a life, but have that life somewhere else. You offer nothing valuable to this site and are just too dumb to see that.
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I appologize for this being off topic, this is for RMA all other can skip to the next post
RMA wrote:
It would only be an issue that you are spamming other peoples posts in a manner that suggest they were commenting on this thread. If ahead of this spam you had specifically said in a post that you are going to copy the posts of other people to this thread so as to suggest that there are people who are Pro-Program like yourself, that might have been proper. But the way you did it gave off the impression that others were adding to this thread when in fact only you were.
No, not true. These were accounts of other people who have attended Aspen Ranch which would be helpful to Nigel. He came here for information about the place. What better information than from those who have attended. Fornits is loaded with information on various programs. You are new here, consolidating posts from other threads is done all the time. Why hide them?
And you seem to post endlessly and speak for others. And because you post so much, it would be far more appropriate if you actually took a fraction of the time you use to spam new posts and actually came up with a name for yourself so we can more easily identify you. That way it doesn't continue to appear to be random guests replying to these threads when in fact it is only a single person; you.
I know that is frustrating. I had asked the same thing when I use to log in and people still preferred to guest post. There are numerous people guest posting. The posts you are reading are not all mine. I post as much as everyone else maybe a little more. There are numerous people guest posting.
The fact you post as a guest and clearly spam, is why nobody takes you very seriously.
Why is disagreeing with you considered spam? Why dont you take guest posters very seriously?
And since this is an anti-program site, why do you bother coming here?
I didn’t see where this was formed as an anti-program site. Why do you post here? Why do you chase people away who have had a favorable experience with programs and come here to speak about it? Do you have a background or personal experience with Aspen Ranch? Why do you post on a thread you have no experience with?
Why don't you form your own site for Pro-Program people and live there? Do you really crave attention this much? Was this a problem Aspen failed to cure you of? Or did you try and build a Pro-Program site and nobody showed up but you? This might explain your multiple personalities as you were probably left talking to yourself there as well.
Go get a life, but have that life somewhere else. You offer nothing valuable to this site and are just too dumb to see that.
So I haven’t come around to your way of thinking and this is how I am treated? You ridicule and make fun of those who have other opinions? Are you going to treat Nigel the same way if he doesn’t become anti-program like yourself. Why not speak to the owner of fornits and get guest posting banned? Why should I be singled out?
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RMA wrote:
Nigel should be able to phone, say he is coming up to spend some time with his son, and Aspen should know that will be for however long Nigel decides. Considering the son is essentially imprisoned at the ranch, there is clearly plenty of time for Aspen and the son to discuss the visit later. But when Nigel goes up there, Aspen should know that the visit will be for however long the parent decides and the parent does not need to explain that. Additionally, Nigel should be able to call the school at any time and arrange an immediate visit. Not this two or three month waiting period, but immediately upon his desire to see his child. No school has any authority to restrict that in any way, shape, or form, no matter how "structured" or "restrictive" the program is.
I agree with this 100%. I was able to visit any time I wanted. They appreciate a phone call so they can change around the kids schedule so they dont miss duties and school etc., but other than that they are open and flexible within reason. There is no way they could be effective if they had parents showing up everyday taking the kids in and out, but unscheduled vists are tolerated.
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First off, I am not at all new to this site. I have been posting for a couple of years at least. At one time under a different log-in name. I forgot the password I used so I simply formed a new account.
The site is obviously anti-program. If you don't see it, I can't help you there.
You go out of your way to make yourself the topic and not the topic itself the matter at hand. Your posts tend to be more about bringing yourself attention. This is also obvious.
You contribute so little to conversations enabling them to have some form of conclusion. More people have to respond to you and your trite little comments than about the topic at hand. When the topic is about Nigel, you take the topic elsewhere. Nigel came here asking advice, you gave anecdotes that were not even your own really. Now he has had to come back and justify himself and prove he is a father with a teenage son at the program because rather than talk to Nigel and give him constructive feedback, you and maybe some others took the focus off him and this thread and turned it in to something else.
If you are done giving Nigel advice, why don't you troll elsewhere? Clearly it is because you can't. Nigel has posted in this thread like four times, you've posted like thirty, and almost all of them offered him nothing. Why can't you stay on topic? Why do you make the same circle-logic arguments over and over again?
And the reason I suspect you are the main guest poster is because your posts are all minutes apart from each other. And often I can tell when it is a different guest poster because unlike you and most of the posters on this site, they are not pro-program. So it is obvious when it is you. I am not opposed to guests. But you are not a guest. You are a constant spammer of useless drivel. You contribute nothing. You make the most weak arguments and you make them repeatedly. If your life long ambition is to be an annoying nuisance, you are very successful in life and should be proud. If you dream was to be intelligent, witty and insightful, I have news for you...
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You contribute so little to conversations enabling them to have some form of conclusion. More people have to respond to you and your trite little comments than about the topic at hand. When the topic is about Nigel, you take the topic elsewhere. Nigel came here asking advice, you gave anecdotes that were not even your own really. Now he has had to come back and justify himself and prove he is a father with a teenage son at the program because rather than talk to Nigel and give him constructive feedback, you and maybe some others took the focus off him and this thread and turned it in to something else.
See you are wrong, those were not my posts. They were your trolls you were talking about, not me. You are trying to discredit me again because I disagree with you on many topics including the effectiveness of programs. My posts to Nigel have been on topic and relative. You seem to have a problem with people who disagree with you.
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You contribute so little to conversations enabling them to have some form of conclusion. More people have to respond to you and your trite little comments than about the topic at hand. When the topic is about Nigel, you take the topic elsewhere. Nigel came here asking advice, you gave anecdotes that were not even your own really. Now he has had to come back and justify himself and prove he is a father with a teenage son at the program because rather than talk to Nigel and give him constructive feedback, you and maybe some others took the focus off him and this thread and turned it in to something else.
See you are wrong, those were not my posts. They were your trolls you were talking about, not me. You are trying to discredit me again because I disagree with you on many topics including the effectiveness of programs. My posts to Nigel have been on topic and relative. You seem to have a problem with people who disagree with you.
My trolls? Are you seriously trying to suggest that I post as a Guest here? Is this where you are trying to take this argument? Do you have anything whatsoever to further contribute on this thread to Nigel's questions and issues or are we now just discussing you? As we seem to be on every thread.
What you consider on-topic is not actually on topic. And you only argue minutiae. The actual argument or topic is apparently far beyond your abilities to discuss. This thread is about Nigel, do you have anything further to add here that relates to his original post and follow-on posts or not? And will you shut up about other crap and focus on his topic or not? Because you don't seem to be able to address Nigel, you only seem to be able to make inane and senseless comments about the posts of others. And they are always a repeated performance with nothing new or original to add, or focused exclusively on some minor and insignificant issue.
Nigel's post was about asking for help. Can you stay focused on that or not?
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You contribute so little to conversations enabling them to have some form of conclusion. More people have to respond to you and your trite little comments than about the topic at hand. When the topic is about Nigel, you take the topic elsewhere. Nigel came here asking advice, you gave anecdotes that were not even your own really. Now he has had to come back and justify himself and prove he is a father with a teenage son at the program because rather than talk to Nigel and give him constructive feedback, you and maybe some others took the focus off him and this thread and turned it in to something else.
See you are wrong, those were not my posts. They were your trolls you were talking about, not me. You are trying to discredit me again because I disagree with you on many topics including the effectiveness of programs. My posts to Nigel have been on topic and relative. You seem to have a problem with people who disagree with you.
My trolls? Are you seriously trying to suggest that I post as a Guest here? Is this where you are trying to take this argument? Do you have anything whatsoever to further contribute on this thread to Nigel's questions and issues or are we now just discussing you? As we seem to be on every thread.
What you consider on-topic is not actually on topic. And you only argue minutiae. The actual argument or topic is apparently far beyond your abilities to discuss. This thread is about Nigel, do you have anything further to add here that relates to his original post and follow-on posts or not? And will you shut up about other crap and focus on his topic or not? Because you don't seem to be able to address Nigel, you only seem to be able to make inane and senseless comments about the posts of others. And they are always a repeated performance with nothing new or original to add, or focused exclusively on some minor and insignificant issue.
Nigel's post was about asking for help. Can you stay focused on that or not?
You are the one trying to make it about me. You have derailed this thread as well as others with your insistance that people agree with you. I have been on topic since page one and I dont agree with all your postings. I cant change that. Now post something relevant to Aspen Ranch, if you have anything otherwise take it to another thread. This isnt fair to others who are trying to follow along.
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Wow, the exact same tactic of trying to reverse my accusations against you, back on to me. Imagine my shock and surprise. I find you to be of juvenile level logic, and I find your arguments to still lack substance. And I still wait an original post on your part offering Nigel assistance to his problems and concerns for his son. I however will not be holding my breath waiting for it to come.
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Wow, the exact same tactic of trying to reverse my accusations against you, back on to me. Imagine my shock and surprise. I find you to be of juvenile level logic, and I find your arguments to still lack substance. And I still wait an original post on your part offering Nigel assistance to his problems and concerns for his son. I however will not be holding my breath waiting for it to come.
Seems you havent offered any yourself in awhile you are wasting pages trolling me. Why not try to be a little more mature and stick to the topic.
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In a while? Nigel made a post earlier and I responded to it. Since then I have had to deal with you while waiting for Nigel to return. And Nigel was kind enough to comment that he is finding my posts useful. Something nobody is saying for you. But I will still wait another four minutes for you to reply. Will it be original or will it be another flip-the-box on to me, using my argument to make your point? One original piece would be nice, but I don't hold out much hope for that. I guess it will be just you and me till Nigel finds time in his busy quest to help his son to return here, wade through our thrilling and bland comments and give us an update. Which I will comment on, offering him advice and insight, and then you will immediately post about my comments.
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In a while? Nigel made a post earlier and I responded to it. Since then I have had to deal with you while waiting for Nigel to return. And Nigel was kind enough to comment that he is finding my posts useful. Something nobody is saying for you. But I will still wait another four minutes for you to reply. Will it be original or will it be another flip-the-box on to me, using my argument to make your point? One original piece would be nice, but I don't hold out much hope for that. I guess it will be just you and me till Nigel finds time in his busy quest to help his son to return here, wade through our thrilling and bland comments and give us an update. Which I will comment on, offering him advice and insight, and then you will immediately post about my comments.
Why couldnt you just wait instead of attacking guest posters who disagree with you, thereby stretching the thread out for pages of your crap? There are many people here who have found this thread useful as it is without your trolling. I dont think it is fair to them. Some advice in the future, RMA, would be if other posters post information that you dont agree with just let it go and let the readers decide. Let Nigel decide if the information is worth reading or not. Its better than reading all your arguments for pages. Stop your flame war and grow up.
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I accused you of this same thing originally. Your entire argument is really now down to just blaming me for what I blamed you? That people here accused you of being a troll so you are now accusing me of being one. Nigel approved of my advice, so clearly to him it was helpful. The only reason these pages go on and on is because you keep responding to everything everyone else has said, not contributing anything original or useful yourself, and I keep responding to your drivel for one very simple reason. I just don't like seeing you listed as the last poster as though you have somehow won points or can claim some sort of victory. Because I think you need that. You appear to need to get the last post in, so I have decided to make it my job to outpost you, to shoot down your weak arguments and to point out the circle logic you continually use because you have no skills at speech and debate and this is obvious.
I am quite content to post another two hundred times, right after you post, to see how far you can really go without saying anything useful.
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Well thats real mature, I am sure Nigel will be impressed with you as the rest of us are. If the last post is that important and gets us back on topic then have at it!! Why didnt you say having the last post was important to you right off? It would have saved many posts for others to sift through.
So go ahead and have it. But try to be a little more tolerant of others opinions, It shows better character and others will go easier on you and your opinons also..... it works both ways.
Stay happy
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I figured if I didn't say something to rattle you, you might give up. I can't have that now. You have addicted me to arguing with you. I now live for it. Whenever I see one of your posts I will be compelled against my will to respond and shoot down your arguments, such as they are. Assuming you aren't just using my own arguments, which is really mature as you like to say now. Did you just learn that word? Oh wait..no, I mentioned it a couple of days ago to you. I keep forgetting you have nothing original to say. Maybe that is what makes you such a fascinating debater.
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TheWho, fully owned again, goes back to what he knows: accusing others of being him, of being off topic and of derailing the thread which he has just finished derailing.
He got you, RMA Survivor. He sucked you in to arguing with him, made it about you and the topic gets lost.
If it's any condolence, it just means you fully owned him and he gave up trying to win the argument.
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I was well known at RMA for being dead right. I was even Dudley Do-Right.
I remember clearly the day I was blown away in a rap for three full hours for using the word circumnavigate in a sentence. I apparently made a kid feel small by using a large word. You would think the conversation would have lasted two minutes explaining that, I apologize, we move on... Nope. And this Whooster guy seems to be the same breed. Takes the most insignificant and builds it in to the significant.
Not sure I would ever admit to being sucked in. I knew his game. He wants to be the last to post, to dumb-down topics and threads to a juvenile level, and as you pointed out in another read, to possibly prevent more important threads from remaining relevant and up front. Like ones he no longer wants to argue about.
But you can't fault me too much for wanting to trash talk him. He so deserves it. And I never get to have fun.
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"blown away" for those of you not in the know is where staff and kids verbally jump the shit of a person to the point where the person is in tears, and from the sounds of it they didn't stop with just that.
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Hi, My phone call with my son was moved to today (from Monday). This was "hands down" our best phone call to date. My son made it to the next level (Maverick). He claimed it was no big deal, but I made sure he knew it was a big deal to me. He seemed to understand this. I was very impressed not only with how the therapist talked with us, but also with my son. He wants me to send some music (I can donate CD's to the ranch as long as they don't have curse words, or violent or sexual references). He wants me to send him some CD's by "Massive Attack" and "The Mars Volta." If there are any musically inclined people out there----do you think these will be approved? We talked about my visit in October and he seemed very excited about it. He asked about his friends at home (this is where he got quite emotional as he feels he treated some of his friends very poorly and he wants to make amends). The therapist has OK'd for him to write some letters to his friends.
With all that being said, it is obvious he still doesn't want to be there. I am formulating my next move. During my visit, I am not going to make any deals with him (I'm sure he is going to ask to come home). Instead, I am going to listen to all he has to say and then let him know that I want him to put his best foot forward, try hard in his academics, and listen to the advice he is being given and then act on it. I will assure him that I have heard what he has to say and will continue to evaluate this whole experience every day. I will tell him that I will bring him home when I feel the time is right. I am hoping that I will continue to see improvement, and then I will decide when is the best time to bring him home.
I'm sure there are more than a few of you that think my biggest mistake was sending him in the first place (I'm not discounting your opinions, and I still can't claim whether or not it was the right one), but I think I can make an even bigger mistake (now) if I bring him home before it is time and without a good game plan. I am including him in this process. I have talked to him about where he wants to go to school. He is the one who has brouht up rules for our household (I'm sure his therapist has been the one to encourage this discussion). If I think for a second that The Aspen Ranch isn't for my son, I will pull him.
If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, please respond. I'm sure I will hear from those of you who think I work for the ranch, or I am in cahoots with "The Who". But for those of you who are trying to give me constructive advice, I thank you very much. If you feel I am screwing up with any of the above, let me know (like I had to ask). Thanks!
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Hi, My phone call with my son was moved to today (from Monday). This was "hands down" our best phone call to date. My son made it to the next level (Maverick). He claimed it was no big deal, but I made sure he knew it was a big deal to me. He seemed to understand this. I was very impressed not only with how the therapist talked with us, but also with my son. He wants me to send some music (I can donate CD's to the ranch as long as they don't have curse words, or violent or sexual references). He wants me to send him some CD's by "Massive Attack" and "The Mars Volta." If there are any musically inclined people out there----do you think these will be approved? We talked about my visit in October and he seemed very excited about it. He asked about his friends at home (this is where he got quite emotional as he feels he treated some of his friends very poorly and he wants to make amends). The therapist has OK'd for him to write some letters to his friends.
With all that being said, it is obvious he still doesn't want to be there. I am formulating my next move. During my visit, I am not going to make any deals with him (I'm sure he is going to ask to come home). Instead, I am going to listen to all he has to say and then let him know that I want him to put his best foot forward, try hard in his academics, and listen to the advice he is being given and then act on it. I will assure him that I have heard what he has to say and will continue to evaluate this whole experience every day. I will tell him that I will bring him home when I feel the time is right. I am hoping that I will continue to see improvement, and then I will decide when is the best time to bring him home.
I'm sure there are more than a few of you that think my biggest mistake was sending him in the first place (I'm not discounting your opinions, and I still can't claim whether or not it was the right one), but I think I can make an even bigger mistake (now) if I bring him home before it is time and without a good game plan. I am including him in this process. I have talked to him about where he wants to go to school. He is the one who has brouht up rules for our household (I'm sure his therapist has been the one to encourage this discussion). If I think for a second that The Aspen Ranch isn't for my son, I will pull him.
If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, please respond. I'm sure I will hear from those of you who think I work for the ranch, or I am in cahoots with "The Who". But for those of you who are trying to give me constructive advice, I thank you very much. If you feel I am screwing up with any of the above, let me know (like I had to ask). Thanks!
Yep, you are theit, and oddly post in tandem with another pro-program guest ("anything can be therapeutic, even a sunset"). Your a hired, torture promoting astro turfer. That people indulge your fiction is nothing new on fornits, and almost as pathetic as YOU.
reality, sworn statements
http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm)
ASPEN RANCH
IN LOA, UT
SURVIVOR REPORTS
SURVIVOR REPORT #1 BY ANONYMOUS
I wish I knew where to begin. I will try to focus on the most disturbing experiences i can
remember but, like many other survivors of such programs i find myself having a hard time remembering everything that went on.
For the first two weeks you arrive at Aspen Ranch you are placed on a level known as round-up. During this period of
time you are either silent in a basement, or outside doing manual labor (changing watering pipes, building fences etc).
You can not have any contact with your parents and get to talk to a therapist maybe once or twice. One July morning when I refused to go outside, the sheets were ripped out from under me and I was carried and thrown onto a staircase where two men put my shoes on picked me up and dragged me to the field where I was to work. Afraid of any other forms of punishment,I did. Being physically threatened is a major way they get you to follow the rules.
Every week you got to speak with your parents, on speakerphone, with your therapist present for 20 minutes. If you ever tried to tell your parents about the torture you were suffering through the conversation would be immediately terminated. All letters were read before sent, all incoming mail opened read and inspected before given to you. The only contact allowed was to your parents and had to be positive. On top of whatever work project your team was assigned to each day you also had to participate in an hour long physical, no matter how physically drained you were. People would sometimes pass out or break down begging to stop but, for the most part the physical went on for as long as the supervisor saw fit.
The psychological abuse was never ending, if you were suspected of doing something wrong you would be forced to go into the basement and sit at a desk until you admitted what you were accused of. We were often threatened to be sent to an out of country program where we were told where was no child labor laws, I still don't know if this program exists but, the mere threat was enough to keep most of us "in line". I could go on forever with stories of this sort. My main point though, please do not put your child through this, two years later I am still suffering from the lies I was fed.
Please protect my identity. I know this is not a complete story but I think it gets the point across. If you need my full
name and dates I attended the program for your own records I can let you know, thanks so much for raising awareness about such horrible programs.
SURVIVOR REPORT #2 BY ANON
These are all factual events that take place at aspen ranch everyday, these are events that have taken place and will
continue to unless someone takes action soon. Everything in my statement is true and I give HEAL permission to use my
statement. I am a survivor of the aspen ranch school, located in Loa, UT. A Theraputic Boarding school/ rehabilitation
center.....my ass. Aspen Ranch uses a physical restraint system called PCS (positive control system) which is actually
FAR from positive. PCS includes a barrage or various pressure points and bent wrists, locked joints, and strained tendons.
Once put into PCS submission you are held here by a minimum of 3 staff, you're pulse regularly checked to indicate your
level of anger. You are normally on the ground (also known as "Carpet Time" for a norm of 45 minutes to an hour) They use any method of getting you down, whether it be calmly asking you to cooperate with them or tackling you through a crowd of people onto concrete (which seems to be a staff favorite). I have seen many of my friends at Aspen Ranch end up with broken wrists from PCS. I have myself lost the feeling in the tips of my fingers for days as a result of being held in PCS submission for over 3 hours. Once you are PCSed (on top of everything) you have to go to R&R (redirection and recovery) more commonly known as the room where you where red sweat pants and sweat shirts even in the dead of the summer (in the Desert) to no avail. The "on campus" psychiatrist's prescribe you medications based on staff behavioral reports, without even consulting you to see how you feel about putting a new foreign substance into your body or checking past medical records (could be detrimental to your well being). For example I myself was a bit ADHD according to staff, and the staff apparently thought that they were doing me a favor recommending that i be prescribed to ritalin (methylphindate), which actually led to a number of seizures...to bad they didn't bother to check to see if my family had a history of amphetamine related seizures. thanks aspen ranch!!
-Anon
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Nigel,
I cannot comment about the music selected, but what I will give you advice on is be 100% open and honest with your son. I am under the impression your son spoke to you about his desire to come home in confidence and isn't taking out a full page ad in the school newspaper. If I am wrong about this, please say so.
Assuming your son spoke to you in confidence, it would be unwise for you to speak to staff or his therapist behind his back about anything he discusses with you in private without first asking him. Trust is what you are building here and it is what you will need for him to come home. You said you think his therapist may have been involved in setting up some rules for your household. Was this said in the context of those being rules were he to come home and leave the program? Based on my knowledge of these programs, it seems very unlikely the school would actively assist your son in leaving their program. Generally they have a knee-jerk reaction, blanket policy of claiming all kids who leave before the program is over (and paid for) will die or wind up in jail.
As for him coming home sooner rather than later, I can understand that you need some time to hear him out, contemplate what he says and then make a decision. You've known him the longest, so you are the best there is at judging the things he says. His staying in the program a little longer isn't going to ruin him for life, but the longer he stays, the more problems that might result farther down the road. You said he had some stories to tell you, and I think that conversation may be enlightening. But find out whether he wants to speak to you in confidence or whether he is sharing his desire to leave and plans to talk to you with others at the school. If he is not sharing, you need to keep that confidence intact.
I am concerned with a couple of other things as well. One is that these programs are often very difficult to describe. I don't know is Aspen uses cult language, which is using words in the wrong context or making up words to describe certain parts of the program, but if they do, your son may have trouble fully describing things. If they have finally started to use plain English, that will be helpful in you understanding his stories. If it is cult language, be patient. Maybe bring a tape recorder so you can fully hear what he is saying a few times. I would highly recommend that. You would also be able to play it for an actual psychologist (NOT affiliated with Aspen in any way) to get a professional opinion of what your son describes and talks about.
My other worry is that your son might think you are stringing him along and blowing off what he has said to you when you leave and he is still there. So you should tell him before you arrive that your plan is to listen to him, but that you currently, at this time only, do not intend to remove him from the school immediately. That he will remain there as you take the time to absorb what he has told you. Don't pop that on him at the last minute. By telling him in advance, you include him. That is so important. And explain everything to him, why you are doing this and so on. Don't make it a secret or a surprise.
I am glad your recent talk with him went well and I wish you every success in your future interactions.
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"Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger."
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf (http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf)
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Hey, Nigel, I am happy for you. Nice phone call. It sounds like your son is progressing nicely. It’s a good sign that he is being allowed to write to his friends. My daughter wasn’t allowed this until towards the very end and even then it was limited to only one or two friends. So he must have had a few good friends.
I think you have a really good gut reaction about bringing him home too early. The sling shot effect would be huge and almost better if you had never sent him in the first place if you did that. Every one of the kids that left early did not do well at all. Well I say that but there were only 2, I recall, that left early while my daughter was there, but I had heard of kids who left early in other groups there.
All the music I sent her was denied because of the language. I couldn’t find anything that they approved of ….is seems all music now a days has inappropriate language or sexual references or the kids don’t listen to it. They are teens and that is what stimulates them, I guess. I cant help you with the CD’s you chose, some of the younger guys here should be able to help you out with that. But music by Barbara Streisand (The Rose) and Kenny Rogers were the types they were looking for me to send Ha,Ha,Ha. Oh, wait, “Cold Play” was a group they approved of. I am not sure if they are still popular but I donated that CD and they accepted it.
You are staying very involved in all of this which has been great and your son will remember every contact as my Daughter did. She can recall each conversation and visit we had together (and never lets me forget the day I never answered the phone because I mixed up the days) and looking back she can see how hard it was for me too to keep her there when she wanted to come home.
About half way thru she ran away and they called me and I remember I left work to come home. She was only gone a few hours before they found her down the road. But I told the school that I wanted to talk to her “Now” to see what was wrong and they put her on and we talked for about an hour. The school was great and the reason she ran is because she was facing a turning point or breakthrough in her therapy and I remember asking her if she wanted to continue or to come home and she said she didn’t know, which surprised me. She wanted to finish but it was hard for her. She had come so far and she made the decision to stay and finish which was a huge day for me. That was her turning point and she remembers that as the day she decided to stick it out too. It was never real easy because they keep the pressure on. She went from no academics to independent study courses towards the end which was a bonus because the schooling wasn’t the focus initially. But they really challenged her in every way.
Anyway this is about you and I would like to speak for others when I tell you that your candid postings here are very helpful to many parents who are on the fence or have kids in programs but don’t want to post here because of the occasional intense opposition to program parents which can flame up from time to time here.
I know you are having a good night!! Enjoy it!!
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"Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger."
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wu ... a.pdfGuest (http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdfGuest)
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NIgel, hope your "game plan" involves intensive therapy on your part. You alluded before, although mildly, to feeling some remorse for your negative attitude. Not trying to dump on you here but it is vital that whatever issues in the family contributed to the situation be addressed. Remember your son did not get to where he is overnight; it took many years for things to "go wrong". The point is not to beat yourself up but to understand cause and effect so situations that recur can be faced in a different, more constructive way. It is encouraging that you are willing to listen. I have a feeling there was a lot of lecturing and nagging before, a mistake many parents make. Listening closely with an open mind will allow you to hear the nuances, the vital clues being given which most parents miss.
One of the many problems with programs is that they do not offer any real therapy with the families. One reason is because the families live so far away. Another is that they don't want to offend the check-writer (that would be you) who might get angry and pull the kid. So usually really important issues get ignored. If the family or the parent with whom the child has the biggest conflict actually seeks out therapy on their own and gains the necessary insight to make changes there is a bigger chance that things can be different when the kid comes home. But no program in the world is going to "fix" any kid, any problem. Without a lot of hard work on your part, insight and willingness to change yourself before he gets home whether soon or later on, you will have the same problems, maybe even worse because he will be bigger than you some day. You are both in a program: you expect him to do his work but you must show him that you are doing "your" work as well to have credibility.
Incidently I have heard from CEDU "graduates" that part of their "breaking down" process was an activity where they were forced to scream and yell that they hate their parents, that the staff would say nasty things about the parents in an effort to create more separation and make the kids more dependent on the staff... the longer a kid was in, the more vulnerable they were and the easier it was to convince them that their parents did not really want them. Meanwhile they stroke the parents until they feel really good about having their kid there. And the peace at home is very seductive. Remember, there is a lot of stuff that goes on that does not make it into the fancy full-color brochures. Good luck.
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Ran away halfway through the program? How many times have we heard that? So many run away, and all are chased. And even in this case, after running away, a short time later given the opportunity to go home she suddenly changed her mind? Very peculiar. I think the fact you stressed that the program was difficult for her and pressuring her constantly, likely without any break for reflection or growth... This is similar to weightlifting where it is proper to give the muscles a break in order to allow them to mend and grow. Constant pressure is not a therapeutic method. Too many of these programs go way to far, far too long and the people cannot go and go nonstop for two full years. The mind simply isn't designed to work constantly with no break and neither are emotions.
I compare these methods to Intensive Foreign Language Courses. The idea in these courses is to learn what would be three years of language in school all in six to eight weeks. It is mentally exhausting after just a few weeks and by the end of the brief course you are usually going somewhere where you will have a chance to be immersed in a community where that language is spoken. You get the basic words and sentence structure, but then you have a long period to use what you learned, no longer pressured. To attempt to learn the language fluently, non-stop in a similar course that ran for months and months, there is no way you could keep up. It would simply be too much information to absorb too quickly. These programs are similar, except that when someone takes one of these courses, it is by choice and they are motivated to succeed to begin with. Whereas in these programs, the teen is usually tossed in to a very foreign and hostile environment, forced to learn a new language (that of the program), and it is not one topic, but an entire life of topics. Childhood, friends, family, bad experiences, all at once, day after day, not for a few hours but endlessly with no break. Which is why these students break.
And it isn't just that it is too much for too long, it isn't really coherent. The teen is left with such a vast mix of varying memories that all arrived so fast, for so long and from a lot of different people. This is what is different from normal therapy with a psychologist. Psychologists see you perhaps two or three times a week at most, the sessions are brief, usually only a half hour to an hour, and like in school, when you return, the previous "lesson" is reviewed. The patient has had some time to reflect, the subject matter was limited and therefore easier to absorb. Imagine going to your psychologist for sixteen hours a day, seven days a week, you had to live in his/her house, you were in fear constantly of being disciplined, and you had to cover an entirely new and deeply emotional segment of your life every other hour, so that by the end of the day you had covered so much material you can barely remember what it all was. And on top of that, it wasn't just one psychologist. Every couple of hours a totally different psychologist came in, took over, had a completely different style, used different words, started from a different part of your life, changed all your focus to something else, and this went on day after day after day for two years...
Your mind would be blank within months once it all ended because you never had a chance to absorb it all. Everything would seem like a dream, where you wake up and try and make sense of it all, but you can't quite describe. It seemed real, you thought something profound had happened while you were sleeping, but there's nothing. It's all a jumble.
Add in that instead of different psychologists who are actually trained and licensed and education in therapy, you had a series of hacks coming in. Each one as incapable as the last from rendering anything of any real and lasting value, all of it made up as they go along. This is how these programs work. One "therapist" is loud and abusive and aggressive, the next is calm, a little strange, says things that are a little hard to understand. The rhythm simply isn't there. It's not like going to the doctor for a sprained ankle where any doctor in the place can probably help you. This is therapy. Developing a one on one relationship is important. Getting one message and not fifty is important. Progressing in a slow and methodical manner is the proper approach.
The brain has to rest, it cannot absorb endless stimuli and not have time to process it all without breaking.
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One of the many problems with programs is that they do not offer any real therapy with the families. One reason is because the families live so far away. Another is that they don't want to offend the check-writer (that would be you) who might get angry and pull the kid. So usually really important issues get ignored. If the family or the parent with whom the child has the biggest conflict actually seeks out therapy on their own and gains the necessary insight to make changes there is a bigger chance that things can be different when the kid comes home. But no program in the world is going to "fix" any kid, any problem. Without a lot of hard work on your part, insight and willingness to change yourself before he gets home whether soon or later on, you will have the same problems, maybe even worse because he will be bigger than you some day. You are both in a program: you expect him to do his work but you must show him that you are doing "your" work as well to have credibility.
Thanks guest, this is a great point. As my daughter progressed thru the program I became aware of how the communication between the two of us just wasn’t working prior to her being placed. As a parent I always took the hard line of defining the rules of the house with hardly any flexibility which turned out to be a flaw for me. So part of what we worked on was involving her more in the household decisions which made her feel more included into the family. This was a big step and difficult for me at first but made a big difference when she came home. Towards the end of his stay and during one of your visits you and your son may be asked to work on a contract which will define the transition back home and the rules you will “both” live by once he is home. This can be a very difficult but enlightening task which will bring you both closer together as you work side by side to define what is important and what isn’t. You may learn a few new things about yourself and about your son (and vice versa) during this process.
Like the guest poster mentioned the better programs recognize that change sometimes needs to occur at home as well as in the program.
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I would avoid making a contract with your son. Your relationship is not a business transaction and should never mimic one. The only thing that has ever matter, and will ever matter are actions, reactions and trust. How you respond to each, how you treat other, how much mutual trust there is is how you gauge the strength of the relationship. As soon as you require a contract to proceed, you are automatically saying trust doesn't exist and that you need your sons signature or word to proceed.
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Nigel, you are being primed for the inevitable next step: You will be told that your son needs to attend a boarding school. Aspen will be paid for the referral.
Your son may also soon be diagnosed with some newly identified condition, such as nonverbal learning disorder, attachment disorder, Asperger's, or some such thing. There will be much urgency attached to the need to move him immediately and directly to a boarding school--you will be told he will fall back from the gains he's made, resume his old behaviors, or wind up "deadinsaneondrugsorinjail." (If this is true, then this program has already failed to deliver on its promises to you and your son.)
If he receives some new diagnosis, bring him home for a second opinion AND a formal treatment plan from an impartial mental health professional with no financial interest in the diagnosis, as well as solid professional training in adolescent mental health. One of the legal reforms being sought for this industry is a requirement that they be required to provide a written diagnosis and written treatment plan. These are documents you could use to hold the corporation and the therapists they employ legally responsible for the promises it makes to you and your son. A written diagnosis and treatment plan are standard operating procedure among mental health professionals and institutions.
Auntie Em
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Auntie Em makes a great point. Nigel, if he were a real person and not just TheWho's sock puppet, should realize he's being groomed by Aspen to put him in a position where he will need to pay thru the nose to make sure his son gets Aspen's help, next in the form of a TBS. Aspen grooms parents for fleecing like pedophiles groom children for molestation.
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Auntie Em makes a great point. Nigel, if he were a real person and not just TheWho's sock puppet, should realize he's being groomed by Aspen to put him in a position where he will need to pay thru the nose to make sure his son gets Aspen's help, next in the form of a TBS. Aspen grooms parents for fleecing like pedophiles groom children for molestation.
My son is already at a TBS (The Aspen Ranch), and I'm already "paying thru the nose to get Aspen's Help." I know there is a conflict of interest regarding the fact that the same therapist that is making recomendations on when my son is ready to go home is employed by Aspen Ranch and that the school is a business and obviously makes money by attracting, and then keeping students. This is the part that I am trying my best to keep an eye on. Here is how I am doing this-----My wife and I are currently seeing my son's old psychologist and reporting what is happening. We are also talking to his old psychiatrist. Together we are trying our best to both keep an eye on what is happening and to set up a plan for when my son comes home. My son likes his former therapists and we trust them.
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In my case the school therapist was an independent but I believe she received a good portion of her business from the program so it adds up the same thing. What you have done is the ideal, keeping your sons old therapist in the loop. This gives you another professional, who has an interest in your son, to bounce questions off of. This therapist may also assist you in detecting any red flags which may emerge from talking to your son or visits to the Ranch.
Its an exciting and stressful time coming up for you as you prepare to travel next week. I wish you luck.
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Auntie Em makes a great point. Nigel, if he were a real person and not just TheWho's sock puppet, should realize he's being groomed by Aspen to put him in a position where he will need to pay thru the nose to make sure his son gets Aspen's help, next in the form of a TBS. Aspen grooms parents for fleecing like pedophiles groom children for molestation.
My son is already at a TBS (The Aspen Ranch), and I'm already "paying thru the nose to get Aspen's Help." I know there is a conflict of interest regarding the fact that the same therapist that is making recomendations on when my son is ready to go home is employed by Aspen Ranch and that the school is a business and obviously makes money by attracting, and then keeping students. This is the part that I am trying my best to keep an eye on. Here is how I am doing this-----My wife and I are currently seeing my son's old psychologist and reporting what is happening. We are also talking to his old psychiatrist. Together we are trying our best to both keep an eye on what is happening and to set up a plan for when my son comes home. My son likes his former therapists and we trust them.
So, did either one explain to you that the worst thing you could do to repair your family system was to isolate your son from your family? If they didn't, they're negligent. You and your wife should be seeing these people to learn how to be better parents to your child and how to heal the family with love and support, not isolation and punishment.
And you know there's a conflict of interest, yet you choose to just play along anyway? That makes no sense to logical thinkers, Nigel.
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[/quote]So, did either one explain to you that the worst thing you could do to repair your family system was to isolate your son from your family? If they didn't, they're negligent. You and your wife should be seeing these people to learn how to be better parents to your child and how to heal the family with love and support, not isolation and punishment.
And you know there's a conflict of interest, yet you choose to just play along anyway? That makes no sense to logical thinkers, Nigel.[/quote]
We thought long and hard about our decision to send our son to The Aspen Ranch, and yes we consulted our son's therapists. Our son was in desperate need of help and he wasn't accepting any that anyone here was offering. While having my son at The Aspen Ranch does isolate him, we are actually much closer now than we were. As I have stated before, my son was running away, not accepting help, threatening both our lives as well as his. In the last 3 months, we are now talking and planning. I believe my son now realizes that I love him dearly and only want what is best for him (whether The Aspen Ranch is "what's best for him" is open for debate). We don't view this as "a punishment" and I have made that clear to my son, but rather as a last ditch effort to save my son's life. I have told him this in no uncertain terms.
As for the "conflict of interest" part: We are not just "playing along." If you read my posts I think you will come to the conclusion that I am looking at this aspect rather closely. At this point, I feel my son's therapist has done a very good job and a lot of our discussions concern making plans for him when he comes home. I will continue to ask questions of everyone and get help making the decision on when to bring him home. I will not rely on one person's opinion.
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So, did either one explain to you that the worst thing you could do to repair your family system was to isolate your son from your family? If they didn't, they're negligent. You and your wife should be seeing these people to learn how to be better parents to your child and how to heal the family with love and support, not isolation and punishment.
I think maybe you view this as a punishment because you did not have a very good experience with programs and that is understandable. I say this not to presume that I know you but because after reading here I have noticed many here have had negative experiences or know someone who had. I have experienced and known many families, enough to know that each family situation is unique. I realize that there are situations where the child isn’t communicating with their parents at all and that the program acts as a conduit to facilitate bring the parent and child together and get the communication going again. This is one of the strengths of many of these programs.
Also, (although typically it is the child who is struggling) part of the healing process is to involve the parents and strengthen their skills and make them aware of new ways they can better help and support their child’s emotional needs so that they have a stronger family base once the child returns home.
And you know there's a conflict of interest, yet you choose to just play along anyway? That makes no sense to logical thinkers, Nigel.
Licensed therapists are trained in this area and would not be part of a program if they felt there would be a negative affect brought upon the child in any way. Therapists are taught to to abstain from doing harm first and foremost. There will always be the challenge of a conflict of interest in any setting unless the therapist lives in the woods and accepts no pay. So I don’t see this as a relevant factor or argument against getting advice from a therapist in any setting. If we accepted that argument then what if the childs therapist at home requested the son be taken out of the program or objected to the child going in the first place? Would it be correct to assume he/she was motivated by money in trying to get the child back so he/she could benefit financially instead of the program using up the insurance coverage for the year?
I think Nigel is doing the right thing by keeping his mind open to all possibilities in his effort to help his son.
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Above response is laughable. If there is a conflict of interest the therapist must recuse him/herself from treating the patient, PERIOD. No if's and's or but's. This is the code of ethics and also the law.
Second, if Nigel already knows there is a conflict of interest, which he does, it should be a GIANT RED FLAG that the therapist didn't mention it to him.
Nigel, you're getting hosed, my friend.
And ,for the record, I am not a program kid so the assumptions in the previous post are just false. and nothing I said is based on personal feelings, just the law.
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Above response is laughable. If there is a conflict of interest the therapist must recuse him/herself from treating the patient, PERIOD. No if's and's or but's. This is the code of ethics and also the law.
So what you are saying is therapists should not accept money for what they do? I am not sure I understand your argument.
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Above response is laughable. If there is a conflict of interest the therapist must recuse him/herself from treating the patient, PERIOD. No if's and's or but's. This is the code of ethics and also the law.
So what you are saying is therapists should not accept money for what they do? I am not sure I understand your argument.
No, I think you are confused, By conflict of interest what the poster meant was the sons “home therapist” has a conflict of interest because while the son is in the program the home therapist is losing revenue so if the home therapist recommends that the son come home early then this would be a red flag that he/she is doing it for the money.
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I'm sorry, but I choose not to go through life thinking that everyone is out for themselves. At this point I trust my son's current therapist at the Aspen Ranch. I think she is there to help kids and so far she seems to be helping my son. As for the rest of what goes on at the Aspen Ranch and whether it is the right place for my son, still not sure.
As for my son's previous therapists, I trust them. I firmly believe that they have my son's and our families best interests at heart.
That being said, I continue to evaluate and will keep my eyes and ears wide open.
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I'm sorry, but I choose not to go through life thinking that everyone is out for themselves. At this point I trust my son's current therapist at the Aspen Ranch. I think she is there to help kids and so far she seems to be helping my son. As for the rest of what goes on at the Aspen Ranch and whether it is the right place for my son, still not sure.
As for my son's previous therapists, I trust them. I firmly believe that they have my son's and our families best interests at heart.
That being said, I continue to evaluate and will keep my eyes and ears wide open.
Well, then it's official. You're a sucker. And you look over glaring conflicts of interest regarding your son's treatment. So you're also an idiot. where do all these stupid parents come from I wonder? And how do they all seem to find their way to the TTI as well?? This industry thrives off suckers like Nigel. :suicide:
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I'm sorry, but I choose not to go through life thinking that everyone is out for themselves. At this point I trust my son's current therapist at the Aspen Ranch. I think she is there to help kids and so far she seems to be helping my son. As for the rest of what goes on at the Aspen Ranch and whether it is the right place for my son, still not sure.
As for my son's previous therapists, I trust them. I firmly believe that they have my son's and our families best interests at heart.
That being said, I continue to evaluate and will keep my eyes and ears wide open.
Well, then it's official. You're a sucker. And you look over glaring conflicts of interest regarding your son's treatment. So you're also an idiot. where do all these stupid parents come from I wonder? And how do they all seem to find their way to the TTI as well?? This industry thrives off suckers like Nigel. :suicide:
You havent even said anything. What glaring conflicts and laws are you talking about? You have been very vague, you are attacking Nigel and other parents but you dont offer a valid argument. Can you be more specific about your concerns with the therapist(s).
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I guess you have trouble reading, too. As Nigel said, his son's therapist is an employee of Aspen Ranch. S/he gets paid by the program. The program has a vested interest in keeping kids as long as possible. Therefore the therapist, in order to keep paychecks flowing, has a vested interest in keeping the child in the program, too. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Nigel gets it. He just chooses to ignore this glaring conflict of interest. In my opinion, this is a stupid course of action for Nigel to take. And it's morally, ethically and legally wrong for the therapist to allow him/herself to be in this position. It's not that deep.
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I guess you have trouble reading, too. As Nigel said, his son's therapist is an employee of Aspen Ranch. S/he gets paid by the program. The program has a vested interest in keeping kids as long as possible. Therefore the therapist, in order to keep paychecks flowing, has a vested interest in keeping the child in the program, too. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Nigel gets it. He just chooses to ignore this glaring conflict of interest. In my opinion, this is a stupid course of action for Nigel to take. And it's morally, ethically and legally wrong for the therapist to allow him/herself to be in this position. It's not that deep.
In a private practice, working as an independent, a therapist would have a vested interest in keeping the child coming back every week also. Therapists also work as part of a team of therapists in group practice and each is required to pull his or her weight to contribute to the therapy practice and therefore would have a vested interest in keeping the clients coming back each week to maintain the money flow so that everyone gets paid and grow the practice.
Helping children in a program is no different. I think you want to see it differently because you have a problem with programs, but so far you have not been able to demonstrate that programs stand apart from other businesses or there is anything morally, ethically or legally wrong with it. You keep repeating it but I havent seen any links to support your personal feelings.
Based on what we know and what Nigel has seen. I think the therapists care just as much for Nigels sons outcome at Aspen Ranch as the one he has at home does.
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Actually, I happen to agree that both the home therapist and the corporate therapist have a financial interest in seeing the boy for therapy. In fact, when home therapists refer to programs, they too are paid bounties by the corporation. So are program parents when they provide testimonials or refer their friends and relatives to the program (usually in the form of free tuition).
Buyer beware.
That does not negate the fact that the multi-billion dollar corporation that is Aspen, which is owned by an investment conglomerate, describes behaviorally challenged youth as profit centers in its annual report.
Auntie Em
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Actually, I happen to agree that both the home therapist and the corporate therapist have a financial interest in seeing the boy for therapy. In fact, when home therapists refer to programs, they too are paid bounties by the corporation. So are program parents when they provide testimonials or refer their friends and relatives to the program (usually in the form of free tuition).
Buyer beware.
That does not negate the fact that the multi-billion dollar corporation that is Aspen, which is owned by an investment conglomerate, describes behaviorally challenged youth as profit centers in its annual report.
Auntie Em
Thanks auntieEm, I think we can all agree that therapists are in the business to make money like everyone else whether they work alone or belong to a therapy group… Dentists like to find cavities to fill….. and surgeons like to fill in their slow periods with tonsillectomies and appendectomies. Therapists like to keep working on new issues. So conflict of interests seems to resolve around money in all areas.
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Well, at least we all agree that there is a blatant conflict of interest at Aspen and NIGEL is too dumb or lazy to do anything about it, even though he already admitted it compromises the program's integrity (if there were any to compromise). NIGEL is a dumbass and Aspen enjoys robbing him blind. They have a good relationship. NIGEL and his son? Not so good.
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Well, at least we all agree that there is a blatant conflict of interest at Aspen and NIGEL is too dumb or lazy to do anything about it, even though he already admitted it compromises the program's integrity (if there were any to compromise). NIGEL is a dumbass and Aspen enjoys robbing him blind. They have a good relationship. NIGEL and his son? Not so good.
I read that you are frustrated. It must be tough to try to maintain your beliefs in the absence of any facts and have everyone walk all over and debunk your theories. Try reading a little more here on fornits instead of resorting to name calling to relieve your frustration.
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Well, at least we all agree that there is a blatant conflict of interest at Aspen and NIGEL is too dumb or lazy to do anything about it, even though he already admitted it compromises the program's integrity (if there were any to compromise). NIGEL is a dumbass and Aspen enjoys robbing him blind. They have a good relationship. NIGEL and his son? Not so good.
Nigel is, let's say, not so bright.
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Whether Nigel is bright or not, he certainly seems to be heavily invested in getting his son help.
I find it revealing that he finds the intentions of the doctor at Aspen, who is a licensed professional, and the licensed therapists his son saw back home as to be in his sons best interests. Yet he didn't say the same for the rest of the staff at Aspen. I think Nigel is concerned that his son sees the staff more than he sees the real professional. I would consider that a conflict of interest as Nigel is paying, from his perspective to see a real therapist and not some hacks. If the hacks were just there to show him how to ride horses and properly equip a backpack, do a lot of "go kid go!" kind of cheer leading while letting the professionals take care of the psychology stuff, that would be better. But I think Nigel is realizing that the hacks are doing the psychology, without licenses or training and there is some concern that Aspen might not be the nurturing environment it claims to be, and is probably not providing the real therapy his son needs.
Nigel has said he will hear his son out. Find out more about what is going on at Aspen. Consider all of his sons options and make the best decision he can. Most of us here believe that taking his son home as soon as possible, have him see a real therapist again and focus on the depression is the way to go. I personally do not believe that 24/7 therapy is helpful. Maybe for a week it could be, but the brain isn't supposed to go non-stop for a year or more. And when you consider it, just how long should it take to work out a kids problems? You telling me it really takes two full years of intensive therapy to get to the source of the problem and work out a solution? That is where I see the conflict. The need to keep those kids in these places longer and longer so the money keeps flowing.
My own psychologist never seems to have a conflict. I see him once every few months just to remain focused. Not every week and certainly not multiple times per week. My shrink is there for me and when times are tough has lowered his hourly rate considerably. And I have never seen psychologists who were part of an organization where they felt they had to generate hours and income for a group. All of my shrinks were in individual practices. Many were not all that good at their job and there was no personal connection made between me and them, but there are always good and mediocre in any industry. But at least they were the real deal. Not hacks.
But getting back to Nigel, I think he is in his own personal conflict of interest. His son wants to come home, his wife wants the son home but Nigel wants to step back, get all the advice and insight he can and make the right decision for his son and his family. A tough place to be. I think if is son is able to communicate clearly what is going on and his reasons for wanting to come home and if he has a solid understanding of what will be required of him when this visit takes place in October, perhaps some progress can be made. There are options to not being in Aspen.
I think Nigel, when he visits, should ask his son how much time has been spent dealing with the issues that got him sent there, and how long has been spent with Aspen making up new issues? I know when I went to one of these therapy schools, they spent all the time trying to make up new problems for me that never existed.
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I believe things have changed considerably since you were in a program, RMA, Aspen Ranch does not subject the kids to intense therapy 24/7. There is a very structured program which has been developed to keep the kids busy and focused allowing time for school, organized activites and personal time. If Nigels son was home I dont believe he would be seeing his therapist much more than he is at the Ranch so that is a wash. The advantage of the Ranch is the structure, consistency and safe environment with constant oversight which is hard to duplicate at home.
You mentioned that Nigel is concerned that his son sees the staff more than he sees his therapist and reading back I didn’t see where Nigel wrote that. I dont think a parent has the expectation that the child will see a therapist 24/7. Some kids dont see one at all unless the parents request it and some programs have the parents pay the therapists directly and set up the appointments.
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"Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger."
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf (http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf)
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I believe things have changed considerably since you were in a program, RMA, Aspen Ranch does not subject the kids to intense therapy 24/7. There is a very structured program which has been developed to keep the kids busy and focused allowing time for school, organized activites and personal time. If Nigels son was home I dont believe he would be seeing his therapist much more than he is at the Ranch so that is a wash. The advantage of the Ranch is the structure, consistency and safe environment with constant oversight which is hard to duplicate at home.
You mentioned that Nigel is concerned that his son sees the staff more than he sees his therapist and reading back I didn’t see where Nigel wrote that. I dont think a parent has the expectation that the child will see a therapist 24/7. Some kids dont see one at all unless the parents request it and some programs have the parents pay the therapists directly and set up the appointments.
You may believe things have changed, but I don't. The people who created Aspen are the same people who created RMA. That they might have changed things slightly over the years since Mel Wasserman died and these people got to run the show is merely cosmetic. Aspen and RMA are hardly apples and oranges. RMA did not subject us to 24/7 therapy either. Obviously we slept. We also had a "structured program" developed to keep us busy, and focused and allowing time for school, organized activities and personal time. But during waking hours, all of that was really part of the therapy program they concocted.
If Nigel's son was at home and not seeing a therapist constantly, that would be a good thing. You shouldn't see a therapist constantly. A person needs down time. And you are suggesting that only the Ranch can provide a safe environment that has oversight and structure and that Nigel and his wife are not capable of creating this at home. I believe Nigel to be capable of that. However everything relies more on the son's willingness. And Nigel is discussing visiting with his son where he can discuss his son's willingness to create their own program, outside of Aspen where the son will be willing to do the work he needs to help himself. Without the son's willingness to do something, Aspen, home...none of it will work. But I think Nigel, with the proper advice from real professionals can approach his son with a solid plan to create a foundation for the son to succeed. Outside of Aspen.
And where I saw Nigel saying he is concerned that his son is not seeing a therapist often enough and the staff more so, is based on the comments made by people like you who say therapists are not providing much treatment if any, depending on the structure and arrangement. Nigel would not be here if he thought the program was doing all it could. That he is concerned by the things his son has said to him, considering the option of taking his son home and feeling that the therapists their son saw before arriving at Aspen could be brought back in to take back over their son's treatment of his depression. Unless Aspen is treating that depression, which I doubt, Nigel is wasting his money. His son needs treatment for depression, under the guidance of a real professional therapist, and to make that work better his son needs his mother and father and any other family readily involved in that process. Not isolation and occasional contact. Nigel can create a far more nurturing and structured environment at home to help his son, with a professional therapist part of this process.
I do not feel that Aspen is capable of helping the son because Aspen, by its own admission, isn't really treating anyone. And someone with depression needs treatment. With depression gone, the son's thought of suicide will fade away, his feelings of low self-worth will pass. And by Nigel and the mother intimately involved in helping their son with his depression, the family will grow closer and the threats of violence a thing of the past. Aspen is not needed here and further, Aspen is actually a hindering factor in the son getting better and growing now rather than later. How long does Aspen think they will need to treat the son's depression? Oh wait, Aspen doesn't treat people...
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If Nigel's son was at home and not seeing a therapist constantly, that would be a good thing. You shouldn't see a therapist constantly.
I agree, it would be ideal if he didn’t have to see a therapist at all. But some people need therapists and others do not. Some see them every day and others once a week. Each situation is different. I believe at most Nigels son sees his therapist once a day for 50 minutes. My daughter was once a week.
A person needs down time. And you are suggesting that only the Ranch can provide a safe environment that has oversight and structure and that Nigel and his wife are not capable of creating this at home. I believe Nigel to be capable of that. However everything relies more on the son's willingness. And Nigel is discussing visiting with his son where he can discuss his son's willingness to create their own program, outside of Aspen where the son will be willing to do the work he needs to help himself. Without the son's willingness to do something, Aspen, home...none of it will work. But I think Nigel, with the proper advice from real professionals can approach his son with a solid plan to create a foundation for the son to succeed. Outside of Aspen.
RMA, I think that you bring up some very good questions. I am sure a similar environment could be set up at home and I cant speak for Nigel but I was unable to leave my job for the length of time needed to create a similar environment and in hindsight I am not sure if I could have turned her around as effectively or at all on my own.
Your second point is well taken. Nothing can be accomplished unless Nigels son is willing and the whole intent is to prepare his son for being successful after he returns home. They will be getting good advice on this and are in a position to speak with experience since they have transitioned so many kids back into their home environment. Nigel needs to express his concerns to his son and his son needs to be able to express his own as well and they need to be able to listen to each other, it is a two way process.
And where I saw Nigel saying he is concerned that his son is not seeing a therapist often enough and the staff more so, is based on the comments made by people like you who say therapists are not providing much treatment if any, depending on the structure and arrangement.
Well, he shouldn’t be concerned, like you said yourself you don’t want to over treat a child with 24/7 therapy. Some kids dont receive or require seeing a therapists at all. They benefit purely from the structure and safe haven of the program. If a parent would like their child to see a therapist the school can arrange it.
Nigel would not be here if he thought the program was doing all it could. That he is concerned by the things his son has said to him, considering the option of taking his son home and feeling that the therapists their son saw before arriving at Aspen could be brought back in to take back over their son's treatment of his depression. Unless Aspen is treating that depression, which I doubt, Nigel is wasting his money. His son needs treatment for depression, under the guidance of a real professional therapist, and to make that work better his son needs his mother and father and any other family readily involved in that process. Not isolation and occasional contact. Nigel can create a far more nurturing and structured environment at home to help his son, with a professional therapist part of this process.
If Nigels son was receiving dialysis for a blood condition then as a concerned parent he would be joining forums where they discuss the pros, cons, side effects and dangers of dialysis and learning as much as he can about how to better help his child through it and determine if the present treatment is the right thing or should he be doing more. Its all perfectly natural. If he didn’t find fornits he may be getting information from other sites like StrugglingTeens.com (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/) and similar forums which discuss the industry.
I do not feel that Aspen is capable of helping the son because Aspen, by its own admission, isn't really treating anyone. And someone with depression needs treatment. With depression gone, the son's thought of suicide will fade away, his feelings of low self-worth will pass. And by Nigel and the mother intimately involved in helping their son with his depression, the family will grow closer and the threats of violence a thing of the past. Aspen is not needed here and further, Aspen is actually a hindering factor in the son getting better and growing now rather than later. How long does Aspen think they will need to treat the son's depression? Oh wait, Aspen doesn't treat people...
It appears you have been swayed by what a few people have said which can be a danger in itself. The results of studies which have been done and professionals tend to disagree with you. What I like to do is look at more than one source.... The studies indicate that the programs have been enormously successful..... Speaking with parents who had kids in similar situations can give a different perspective, speaking with local professionals and of course reading about the dangers of programs here on fornits are all ways to increase a parents knowledge. But to depend on just a few people who say the programs are great or say the programs are abusive would be short sighted and would go against the reason people seek knowledge to begin with which is to make an educated decision.
I think at the very least we can all agree that the best course to take is to listen to the professionals who are seeing Nigels son and keep the dialog open.
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His son needs treatment for depression, under the guidance of a real professional therapist, and to make that work better his son needs his mother and father and any other family readily involved in that process. Not isolation and occasional contact. Nigel can create a far more nurturing and structured environment at home to help his son, with a professional therapist part of this process.
I do not feel that Aspen is capable of helping the son because Aspen, by its own admission, isn't really treating anyone. And someone with depression needs treatment. With depression gone, the son's thought of suicide will fade away, his feelings of low self-worth will pass. And by Nigel and the mother intimately involved in helping their son with his depression, the family will grow closer and the threats of violence a thing of the past.
Well said. Nigel should review the contract he signed. He will likely find that although they sold him using all kinds of language related to "treatment," the contract will have language that specifically states that Aspen is not a mental health facility. Bait and switch.
And (Corporate) Guest, you say there are "studies showing that programs are enormously successful." Name one. Name one study that was not commissioned, bought and paid for by a corporation owning and operating one or more programs. One published in a peer-reviewed journal. I know of researchers, counselors, therapists and other staff who were fired because they spoke out against the radical, abusive methods of the programs and the continual, systematic maltreatment of children. Publish the party line, or pack your bags.
Auntie Em
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Nigel should review the contract he signed. He will likley find that although they sold him using all kinds of language related to "treatment," the contract will have language that specifically states that Aspen is not a mental health facility. Bait and switch.
Okay, kid, who dropped out of a program masquerading as a little old Auntie on fornits, I'll bite, but first show us a contract that has the “Bait and switch” dialog in it. You know the contract that you refer to. We know that you just made it up, but it would be interesting to actually see one.
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Aren't you sweet! No one has called me a kid in a long time. Goochie goochie goo back atcha.
I also love how "kid" is a derogatory term to you. You must prefer the term "teen$ in cri$i$." A much more profitable term indeed.
Okay, so the contract. I used to have one here in the stack of research, legal papers, mental health journal articles, and correspondence with my elected officials relating to getting my niece out of a program. I don't think I have it anymore, but I'll look. The bait and switch comes from a program promising therapy, but having a contract that avoids or denies that. The main point is that parents shouldn't sign ANY contract that releases a corporation from liability for not providing actual mental health services. Otherwise what have you got? Oh, yes: Seclusion, restraint, and teens providing scream therapy to one another for $83,000 a year.
I did, as it happens, discuss this very topic yesterday with an attorney knowlegable about the teen help industry who obviously does have a command of the relevant law; Programs market and sell therapy, then avoid it in the contract language.
Auntie Em
P.S. Don't think I didn't notice that you deflected the question about producing one single peer-reviewed study supporting programs as "enormously successful" that is not commissioned by a corporation running a program. Name one.
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Aren't you sweet! No one has called me a kid in a long time. Goochie goochie goo back atcha.
I also love how "kid" is a derogatory term to you. You must prefer the term "teen$ in cri$i$." A much more profitable term indeed.
Almost like the word corporate? lol I guess you were just being nice to the guest.
Okay, so the contract. I used to have one here in the stack of research, legal papers, mental health journal articles, and correspondence with my elected officials relating to getting my niece out of a program. I don't think I have it anymore, but I'll look. The bait and switch comes from a program promising therapy, but having a contract that avoids or denies that. The main point is that parents shouldn't sign ANY contract that releases a corporation from liability for not providing actual mental health services. Otherwise what have you got? Oh, yes: Seclusion, restraint, and teens providing scream therapy to one another for $83,000 a year.
Why not just ask Nigel if they make his son scream all day or if his son is receiving therapy? We have him right here.. or is it better for you not knowing the truth and just remembering the good old days and relieing on your memory of your nieces stay at a program that has little to do with Aspen Ranch.
I did, as it happens, discuss this very topic yesterday with an attorney knowlegable about the teen help industry who obviously does have a command of the relevant law; Programs market and sell therapy, then avoid it in the contract language.
Auntie Em
P.S. Don't think I didn't notice that you deflected the question about producing one single peer-reviewed study supporting programs as "enormously successful" that is not commissioned by a corporation running a program. Name one.
Okay, so the Study I used to have one here in the stack of research, legal papers, mental health journal articles, and correspondence with my elected officials relating to my friends research into sending his son to a program, which all supported the program as a good decision. I don't think I have it anymore, but I'll look. I was just reading it the other day. Better than 95% of the kids who finish the program do extremely well. Some places see 100% of the kids get accepted into the college of their choice.
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"Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger."
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf (http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf)
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If you want to defend corporate greed, I'm sure that will impress everyone, lol. Perhaps I'll choose the term "for-profit" instead.
We can ask Nigel, but he will only know what the staff tell him about life in a program. I place more credibility in the testimony of people with first hand knowlege of the "therapies" used: program survivors.
We know the for-profit programs include confrontation therapy 2-3 times per week--documented to be harmful, see "Confrontation and Addiction Treatment," Miller and White, reprinted in Counselor Magazine, 2007. (This also details the Synanon cult origins of confrontational therapy.) In "raps" or "groups," children are required to attack one another verbally. Read any survivor testimony here or read the sworn testimony by survivors given before the US House of Representatives in 2007. Watch this video of former students describing raps: http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pJnj4m5IIU. Here is a link to the daily schedule at a "reputable" program, and you can clearly see that group therapy in raps is shown right on the schedule. http://http://www.bouldercreekacademy.net/campus/dailyschedule.pdf
See also "Residential Treatment: What the Research Tells Us" from the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform http://www.nccpr.org (http://www.nccpr.org). The report includes the following:
The harm of residential treatment:
? A review of the scholarly literature by the office of the U.S. Surgeon General found only “weak evidence” for the success of residential treatment.
? Even Shay Bilchik, former President of the Child Welfare League of America, the trade association for residential treatment centers and other agencies holding children in substitute care, has made a startling admission: Bilchik admitted that they lack “good research” showing residential treatment’s effectiveness and “we find it hard to demonstrate success…”
And see also an exhaustive fact sheet on the failure of RTCs, from the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law available here: http://www.bazelon.org/issues/children/ ... s/rtcs.htm (http://www.bazelon.org/issues/children/factsheets/rtcs.htm)
Auntie Em
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If you want to defend corporate greed, I'm sure that will impress everyone, lol. Perhaps I'll choose the term "for-profit" instead.
For-profit is better, not that non-profit guarantees to be any less abusive or any more effective.
We can ask Nigel, but he will only know what the staff tell him about life in a program. I place more credibility in the testimony of people with first hand knowlege of the "therapies" used: program survivors.
How come if people don’t conform to the group think here that “all programs are the same and abusive” then we are all automatically defending corporate greed? Why cant you let people express their own thoughts? Why dismiss Nigel and his sons experiences?
He would know what he sees with his own eyes, what he experiences and what his son has experienced to date. He knows that his sons therapist at the ranch is a licensed therapist (most survivors wouldn’t know to ask). Nigel may know what the details of the contract with Aspen are and whether or not the school is living up to their end of the bargain so far. The information he brings is just as credible as the info you received from your niece wouldn’t you say? Maybe more so?
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There are many advantages to treatment in a residential facility. As Wong (1999, p. 42) reports, “Adolescents with long-standing and intense aggressive, destructive, and disruptive behavior are not good candidates for short-term, outpatient, or in-home treatment. Simply put, youth in this state do not participate in or cooperate with therapy. Some type of extended residential or alternative living situation is probably necessary to provide a secure and controlled environment in which to instigate behavior change.” Inpatient care can provide immediate help in a crisis situation, and can remove the client from dangerous situations (Barker, 1974). More so than the average outpatient program, residential facilities offer more opportunities for therapeutic contact, more monitoring of dangerous and disturbing behaviors, and a more direct evaluation of aftercare options. Assessments that are hard to do as an outpatient can be done at these facilities, and at multiple intervals, and hence the reactions to medication and other interventions can be watched particularly closely.
Thanks this is a good find.
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I found this interesting:
One of the biggest advantages of residential treatment is the freedom to use many different treatment modalities. No single treatment model could possibly help all troubled adolescents with their various backgrounds, personalities, and problems (Barker, 1988). Therapeutic milieus at adolescent residential treatment centers are usually characterized by the following elements: consistent rules and routines, program activities, group sessions, individual psychotherapy, conflict interventions, incentive systems, special education, family treatment, parent education groups, and individual behavior modification programs (Whittaker, 1979). More specifically, certain treatments have been advocated for certain problems. For the large proportion of depressed adolescents in residential treatment, Francis & Hart (1992) recommend social skills training, cognitive therapy, and a general increase in activity.
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There are many advantages to treatment in a residential facility. As Wong (1999, p. 42) reports, “Adolescents with long-standing and intense aggressive, destructive, and disruptive behavior are not good candidates for short-term, outpatient, or in-home treatment. Simply put, youth in this state do not participate in or cooperate with therapy. Some type of extended residential or alternative living situation is probably necessary to provide a secure and controlled environment in which to instigate behavior change.” Inpatient care can provide immediate help in a crisis situation, and can remove the client from dangerous situations (Barker, 1974). More so than the average outpatient program, residential facilities offer more opportunities for therapeutic contact, more monitoring of dangerous and disturbing behaviors, and a more direct evaluation of aftercare options. Assessments that are hard to do as an outpatient can be done at these facilities, and at multiple intervals, and hence the reactions to medication and other interventions can be watched particularly closely.
Thanks this is a good find.
Thats interesting, I would have thought that kids or harm themselves or have intent to would do better in local services where they can go home at night. I dont think they are talking about your standard pot smokers here, though.
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Aren't you sweet! No one has called me a kid in a long time. Goochie goochie goo back atcha.
I also love how "kid" is a derogatory term to you. You must prefer the term "teen$ in cri$i$." A much more profitable term indeed.
Okay, so the contract. I used to have one here in the stack of research, legal papers, mental health journal articles, and correspondence with my elected officials relating to getting my niece out of a program. I don't think I have it anymore, but I'll look. The bait and switch comes from a program promising therapy, but having a contract that avoids or denies that. The main point is that parents shouldn't sign ANY contract that releases a corporation from liability for not providing actual mental health services. Otherwise what have you got? Oh, yes: Seclusion, restraint, and teens providing scream therapy to one another for $83,000 a year.
I did, as it happens, discuss this very topic yesterday with an attorney knowlegable about the teen help industry who obviously does have a command of the relevant law; Programs market and sell therapy, then avoid it in the contract language.
Auntie Em
P.S. Don't think I didn't notice that you deflected the question about producing one single peer-reviewed study supporting programs as "enormously successful" that is not commissioned by a corporation running a program. Name one.
QFT
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I found this interesting:
One of the biggest advantages of residential treatment is the freedom to use many different treatment modalities. No single treatment model could possibly help all troubled adolescents with their various backgrounds, personalities, and problems (Barker, 1988). Therapeutic milieus at adolescent residential treatment centers are usually characterized by the following elements: consistent rules and routines, program activities, group sessions, individual psychotherapy, conflict interventions, incentive systems, special education, family treatment, parent education groups, and individual behavior modification programs (Whittaker, 1979). More specifically, certain treatments have been advocated for certain problems. For the large proportion of depressed adolescents in residential treatment, Francis & Hart (1992) recommend social skills training, cognitive therapy, and a general increase in activity.
I didnt realize they knew programs were beneficial for kids with depression back in 1992. I thought it was a more recent finding. This is a good find, thanks guest.
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Interesting Read
Aspen Ranch to Present
Equine Therapy Model At IECA
September 29, 2009
Aspen Ranch, a licensed residential treatment center for struggling teens ages 13-17, has announced that Clinical Director Brandon Burr, Program Director Kevin Knutson and Equine Director Chad Lyman will present their Equine Companionship and Partnership Rituals (ECPR) model at IECA's Fall Conference, November 11-14, in Charlotte, North Carolina.
The presentation will focus on the clinical application of the ECPR model, which is based on equine co-facilitated psychotherapy. The model differs from other equine-based interventions in that it focuses on the equine-student relationship and incorporates the horse as a true co-facilitator in the therapeutic process.
"During equine-student sessions, we use a multi-step relationship-building process," says Knutson. "This helps students identify their interpersonal strengths and weaknesses so they can become more socially competent and experience greater success in their interpersonal relationships."
Adds Lyman: "The student-horse relationship is built on trust, patience and positive communication skills that easily translate into the real world. When a student encounters a problem with a horse, we approach it from the standpoint of a life problem not just a horse problem."
The seven steps of the model, also known as relationship building rituals, provide a unique method of discussing, illustrating and remediating parent-child relationship problems and parent skill training.
Equine therapy has long been the hallmark of the Aspen Ranch program. With the development of an Equine Co-Facilitated Psychotherapy Certification Program last fall, the equine approach has been further integrated into every aspect of treatment. The certification program ensures that the Ranch's therapists and equine professionals are thoroughly cross-trained. Therapists who are already skilled in psychotherapy become proficient in equine work, while equine staff members who are already skilled in working with horses receive intensive therapeutic training.
"Our team is looking forward to presenting our equine therapy model at IECA," says Burr. "Equine therapy is founded on the principle that, through working with horses, students can learn life skills that initiate change. We hope that by sharing our techniques, we can help facilitate even more positive change with struggling teens."
Aspen Ranch is a licensed adolescent residential treatment center for teens experiencing low self esteem, academic underachievement, substance abuse, mood disorders, anger, and family conflict. Located in rural Loa, Utah, Aspen Ranch provides the opportunity for students to experience success and rediscover a sense of self worth by living in a therapeutic environment, attending an individually paced school designed for success, participating in individual and group therapy, and involvement in the life-changing Equine Program.
Aspen Ranch is a program of Aspen Education Group, the nation's leading provider of therapeutic education programs for struggling or underachieving young people. Aspen's services range from short-term intervention programs to residential treatment, and include a variety of therapeutic settings such as boarding schools, outdoor behavioral health programs and special needs summer camps, allowing professionals and families the opportunity to choose the best setting to meet a student's unique academic and emotional needs. Aspen is a division of CRC Health Group, the nation's largest chemical dependency and related behavioral health organization. For over two decades, CRC Health has been achieving successful outcomes for individuals and families.
Link (http://http://www.strugglingteens.com/artman/publish/AspenRanchBN_100901.shtml)
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Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger.
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The model differs from other equine-based interventions in that it focuses on the equine-student relationship and incorporates the horse as a true co-facilitator in the therapeutic process.
LMAO. The horses are now going to facilitate the "therapy." I guess it's a step up from the local yokels off the street. Will the horses be licensed??
These programs are a JOKE, people.
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The programs which offer the equine environment to people with disabilities can teach companionship, responsibility, leadership, vocational, educational skills as well as offer competition venues in the different horse disciplines. Riding a horse provides a unique and often profound recreational or leisure activity for many people. There are many sports which people who have disabilities can participate in for enhancing their lives which offer social and physical fitness as addressed in the Special Olympic programs for people with a cognitive disability. There are hundreds of programs around the world as well as many organizations dedicated to the various forms of horse riding or horse care which address many other disabilities and may not have a cognitive disability.
http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_horseback_riding
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The model differs from other equine-based interventions in that it focuses on the equine-student relationship and incorporates the horse as a true co-facilitator in the therapeutic process.
LMAO. The horses are now going to facilitate the "therapy." I guess it's a step up from the local yokels off the street. Will the horses be licensed??
These programs are a JOKE, people.
One more way to suck extra dollars out of stupid parents.
Notice Whooter now uses wiki articles as supporting "evidence" after howling for years about fornits wiki and Oscar. Flip-flop. Yet another example of Whooter reversing himself, as he always does.
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The model differs from other equine-based interventions in that it focuses on the equine-student relationship and incorporates the horse as a true co-facilitator in the therapeutic process.
LMAO. The horses are now going to facilitate the "therapy." I guess it's a step up from the local yokels off the street. Will the horses be licensed??
These programs are a JOKE, people.
One more way to suck extra dollars out of stupid parents.
Notice Whooter now uses wiki articles as supporting "evidence" after howling for years about fornits wiki and Oscar. Flip-flop. Yet another example of Whooter reversing himself, as he always does.
Wikipedia is factual information. Fornits posters were bagged several times trying to posts propaganda on the Wikipedia sites so they created their own "Fornits Wiki" which is controlled by a few people here on fornits. Take a look some time and see if you think it is factual. Ask yourselves this: How many of these programs call themselves gulags and/or the kids detainees (huge tip off that it is a parody)
If you have never heard of equine therapy then the joke is on you.... keep that mind closed thats the way people here like it lol.
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Here try this if you don’t believe me:
Go to wikipedia.org and then fornits wiki and type in “Hidden lake academy”
Fornits wiki says: The length of the program is stated to be 18-21 months according to the website, but detainees have experienced stays between 18-28 months.
Wikipedia.org says: The student population in the past has often ranged from about 15 to 200 students.
Anyone above the age of 18 will spot this difference right off the bat and know they are viewing a parody site. These places just do not call the kids detainees, which is a juge tip off. Just for fun read thru a few pages and you will know it is just propaganda, written by teenagers who hated their school.
Someone in our town drew bars on all the windows of the school to make it look like a prison on this big picture of the new school they were building. Adults wouldnt do something like that. But it was fun for the kids to blow off steam just like the "Fornits Wiki". Just dont take it too seriously
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The model differs from other equine-based interventions in that it focuses on the equine-student relationship and incorporates the horse as a true co-facilitator in the therapeutic process.
LMAO. The horses are now going to facilitate the "therapy." I guess it's a step up from the local yokels off the street. Will the horses be licensed??
These programs are a JOKE, people.
One more way to suck extra dollars out of stupid parents.
Notice Whooter now uses wiki articles as supporting "evidence" after howling for years about fornits wiki and Oscar. Flip-flop. Yet another example of Whooter reversing himself, as he always does.
yes. he did it again here. pretty lame game, whooter. this poster has your number.
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There are many advantages to treatment in a residential facility. As Wong (1999, p. 42) reports, “Adolescents with long-standing and intense aggressive, destructive, and disruptive behavior are not good candidates for short-term, outpatient, or in-home treatment. Simply put, youth in this state do not participate in or cooperate with therapy. Some type of extended residential or alternative living situation is probably necessary to provide a secure and controlled environment in which to instigate behavior change.” Inpatient care can provide immediate help in a crisis situation, and can remove the client from dangerous situations (Barker, 1974). More so than the average outpatient program, residential facilities offer more opportunities for therapeutic contact, more monitoring of dangerous and disturbing behaviors, and a more direct evaluation of aftercare options. Assessments that are hard to do as an outpatient can be done at these facilities, and at multiple intervals, and hence the reactions to medication and other interventions can be watched particularly closely.
This was interesting, guest. Was this part of a study? They mention how residential treatment is advantageous for kids who would not cooperate in therapy or in-home treatment.
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"Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger."
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf (http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf)
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This was interesting, guest. Was this part of a study? They mention how residential treatment is advantageous for kids who would not cooperate in therapy or in-home treatment.
It was part of a study, there was a woman, Shapiro, who conducted an independent study of Therapeutic Boarding Schools and found them to be very effective with no evidence of abuse. It was published in a journal if I recall correctly. She is currently working with “Students for Sensible Drug Policy” and “National Institute for Mental Health”. She is pretty cool and really into helping kids.
She was selected to be the 2007 Gottlieb Fellow and awarded summer funding to participate in the NIH Multidisciplinary Predoctoral Clinical Research Training Program. In 2008-2009, she will work with the Social Development Research Group as an NIMH Prevention Trainee using a prevention science framework to research risk and protection factors in child development, the implementation of community-level interventions, and questions regarding the scalability and sustainability of tested-effective programs.
Currently she is working on papers examining whether the SSDP “Students for Sensible Drug Policy” intervention worked better (or worse) for people who were high in behavioral disinhibition/externalizing, as well as a qualitative paper examining the transition to adulthood for youths involved in crime and drugs during adolescence.
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^Whooter, spinning his wheels^ Above has been thoroughly debunked for several years. It was a questionaire, not a study. Not peer-reviewed or published, either. 0/10, Whooter.
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This was interesting, guest. Was this part of a study? They mention how residential treatment is advantageous for kids who would not cooperate in therapy or in-home treatment.
It was part of a study, there was a woman, Shapiro, who conducted an independent study of Therapeutic Boarding Schools and found them to be very effective with no evidence of abuse. It was published in a journal if I recall correctly. She is currently working with “Students for Sensible Drug Policy” and “National Institute for Mental Health”. She is pretty cool and really into helping kids.
She was selected to be the 2007 Gottlieb Fellow and awarded summer funding to participate in the NIH Multidisciplinary Predoctoral Clinical Research Training Program. In 2008-2009, she will work with the Social Development Research Group as an NIMH Prevention Trainee using a prevention science framework to research risk and protection factors in child development, the implementation of community-level interventions, and questions regarding the scalability and sustainability of tested-effective programs.
Currently she is working on papers examining whether the SSDP “Students for Sensible Drug Policy” intervention worked better (or worse) for people who were high in behavioral disinhibition/externalizing, as well as a qualitative paper examining the transition to adulthood for youths involved in crime and drugs during adolescence.
You mentioned she conducted an independent study. Was this done on several programs or one specific? Do you have a link to the study? I see that she works in research for the government.
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^Whooter, spinning his wheels^ Above has been thoroughly debunked for several years. It was a questionaire, not a study. Not peer-reviewed or published, either. 0/10, Whooter.
This was debunked years ago. No need to rehash this old failure, Whooter. If I remember correctly, Deborah fully owned you on this topic several times.
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This was interesting, guest. Was this part of a study? They mention how residential treatment is advantageous for kids who would not cooperate in therapy or in-home treatment.
It was part of a study, there was a woman, Shapiro, who conducted an independent study of Therapeutic Boarding Schools and found them to be very effective with no evidence of abuse. It was published in a journal if I recall correctly. She is currently working with “Students for Sensible Drug Policy” and “National Institute for Mental Health”. She is pretty cool and really into helping kids.
She was selected to be the 2007 Gottlieb Fellow and awarded summer funding to participate in the NIH Multidisciplinary Predoctoral Clinical Research Training Program. In 2008-2009, she will work with the Social Development Research Group as an NIMH Prevention Trainee using a prevention science framework to research risk and protection factors in child development, the implementation of community-level interventions, and questions regarding the scalability and sustainability of tested-effective programs.
Currently she is working on papers examining whether the SSDP “Students for Sensible Drug Policy” intervention worked better (or worse) for people who were high in behavioral disinhibition/externalizing, as well as a qualitative paper examining the transition to adulthood for youths involved in crime and drugs during adolescence.
You mentioned she conducted an independent study. Was this done on several programs or one specific? Do you have a link to the study? I see that she works in research for the government.
She is working for the government now doing clinical research. I'll try to locate the link and put it up. It was a fairly encouraging study for the future of this industry.
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"Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger."
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf (http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf)
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^Whooter, spinning his wheels^ Above has been thoroughly debunked for several years. It was a questionaire, not a study. Not peer-reviewed or published, either. 0/10, Whooter.
This was debunked years ago. No need to rehash this old failure, Whooter. If I remember correctly, Deborah fully owned you on this topic several times.
Yes, it was. TheWho got very upset when the numbers showed 65% of ASR graduates go right back to drugs, like his kid did. Many end up dead from ODs before they reach 21, like his kid did.
This was just another survey, filled out by parents of 'graduates' so there can't be any conclusions drawn from it. Ms. Shapiro also commented that it was not a scientific study. Either way, the numbers she came up with looked really bad for ASR.
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Here is one of many findings an independent study done by Colgate University and published the findings in the medical journal.
Psychiatric medication was used by 60% of the student sample prior to ASR, and only 46% of the student sample after ASR. Before treatment, the average ASR student was suspended 1.5 times and ran away from home 1.1 times, but has done neither since.
Students have similar impressions about the improvement of their situation. They feel that their families create less stress in their lives now than prior to ASR (p ? .01). They also believe the following areas to have shown improvement (p ? .001): the ease of learning, the quality and support of their peer relationships, social support from their parents, honesty and communication within the family, the individual relationships with their mother and father, feeling pleased with his or her own behavior, having a parent pleased with his or her behavior, the degree to which the child creates stress in the family unit, the fairness of parental expectation, and his or her overall happiness. The amount of organized activities that these students participated in did not show any significant change, though 53% of the students reported presently playing team sports, 16% committing to recreational outdoor activities, 16% doing community service, 10% working on student governments, 6% writing publications, 6% contributing to the arts, 3% participating in theatre, and 3% joining religious groups.
Link to Study (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
Kids do much better post program and are integrated back into their home lives and schooling. Amazing success.
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^Whooter, spinning his wheels^ Above has been thoroughly debunked for several years. It was a questionaire, not a study. Not peer-reviewed or published, either. 0/10, Whooter.
This was debunked years ago. No need to rehash this old failure, Whooter. If I remember correctly, Deborah fully owned you on this topic several times.
Yes, it was. TheWho got very upset when the numbers showed 65% of ASR graduates go right back to drugs, like his kid did. Many end up dead from ODs before they reach 21, like his kid did.
This was just another survey, filled out by parents of 'graduates' so there can't be any conclusions drawn from it. Ms. Shapiro also commented that it was not a scientific study. Either way, the numbers she came up with looked really bad for ASR.
This survey was done by a grad student, not Colgate University, as Whooter would have you believe. It is not peer-reviewed, nor published.
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Whooter's link leads to "student papers." Now any student paper is a study? Big failure trying to pass this off as legitimate research. Sad try, Whooter. This is why your credibility here is zero. Not only are you a phony, but the 'evidence' you link to is just some kid's paper. Ha, ha, ha. I can see why you get so frustrated, but making things up won't help you get the attention you want.
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There is nothing inherently wrong with research done by a student per se, as it would have been overseen by a faculty member. However, Valerie B. Shapiro's paper, "Is Long-Term Residential Treatment Effective for Adolescents? A Treatment Outcome Study," is clearly material that was used to fulfill graduation requirements, rather than any ground breaking research that would have made it into a peer-reviewed journal on its own merits.
Despite an apparent posture of good and scrupulous intentions, Shapiro evidently does not know enough about the notoriously unscrupulous marketing habits of this industry, nor know enough about the targeted program itself. Much of her description of ASR appears to have been taken at face value, straight from an ASR brochure:
"ASR provides an accredited high school education on the grounds in addition to 24-hour crisis intervention services and behavioral observation."[/list]
Moreover, the actual number of participants in this survey is staggeringly low. It is impossible to draw any meaningful statistical conclusions from the data. There were fewer student surveys returned for analysis (17), than there are pages in this paper. Perhaps this is why the results discussed in the text, as well as the tables, are expressed almost exclusively in terms of percentages.
Pages 11 and 12 do give some relevant facts:
Participants in the present study
Participants in this study are students that graduated the Academy of Swift River between the dates of December 17, 1999 and November 16, 2001. Of the 191 students that were scheduled to graduate during this time period, 151 actually graduated. Some of the cited reasons for dropping out include the transfer into another program, self-dismissal at age eighteen, medical leave, and running away. Of those that graduated, 125 students had mailing addresses that could be verified through the yellow pages and other Internet search engines. This excluded 3 graduates living outside the United States, 24 graduates with a name change or an unlisted address, and 1 graduate who had committed suicide.[/list]
A Description of the Respondents
Thirty families agreed to participate in this extensive survey, making for a 24% response rate. Of these families, only 2 returned more than one parent questionnaire, and only 17 students returned their self-reports. Of the parent respondents, 70% were mothers, 20% fathers, 3% stepmothers, and 7% both mothers and fathers in collaboration. Thirty-eight percent of these parents reported living with the graduate, 30% reported living apart from the graduate, and 33% reported living with the graduate on a part-time basis. Table 1 presents additional demographic information on the present family structure of ASR graduates. Two-thirds of these parents had a male graduate. Parents reported speaking to their child an average of more than twice a week, but not quite daily.
The student respondents ranged in age from 16-20 years old (M = 17.9). Half of them were female, and all but one was Caucasian. Of all the 30 students for whom data were collected, 13% returned to his or her original school after ASR, 3% enrolled in a new public school, 10% enrolled in a new private school while living at home, 33% attended a residential boarding school, 6.7% attended college while living at home, 23% went straight to a residential college, 3% found employment while living at home, and 6% attended other residential programs for adolescents. At the time of the survey, 40% were juniors or seniors in high school, 30% were in their first year of college, and 13% were in their second year of college. A total of 56% of students reported some attempt at a college education, though only 43% of the students were enrolled at the time of the study. Sixty-six percent of students reported currently having a job. The average ASR graduate reported contact with somebody from his or her ASR graduating class within the past two weeks and with a staff member within the past three months. The length of time since graduation for this sample ranged from 6.5 to 26.5 months, the average being 13.9 months.[/list]
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Despite apparently good intentions, Shapiro evidently does not know enough about the notoriously unscrupulous marketing habits of this industry, nor know enough about the targeted program itself. Much of her description of ASR appears to have been taken at face value, straight from ASR marketing materials:
"ASR provides an accredited high school education on the grounds in addition to 24-hour crisis intervention services and behavioral observation."
Cant get much more independent than that. So what you are saying is someone who knows the industry better, like a person with first hand experience would be in a better position to conduct the research? Maybe if someone who worked at a program for awhile and then left and started their own research company may understand the industry a little more and be in a better position to perform a stronger study and be able to see thru the marketing a little better.
We have had studies from both ends of the spectrum...those with intimate knowledge and those with no knowledge of the industry at all and both ends reported that the programs were beneficial to the kids and families and no abuse was found in any study.
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I agree with Ursus here. This is nothing more than a student paper for a psych class. It's no study and it's not scientific in method. I'm a research scientist and this isn't research science, my friends.
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I agree with Ursus here. This is nothing more than a student paper for a psych class. It's no study and it's not scientific in method. I'm a research scientist and this isn't research science, my friends.
Thanks for concuring with Ursus. He stated that the study was valid, although conducted by a student, it was overseen by faculty at Colgate University and published in their Scientific journal of Medicine.
So we even have a Research scientitst that agrees this is a valid peer reviewed, published study and since Shapiro had no conections to the industry it is considered Independent.
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I agree with Ursus here. This is nothing more than a student paper for a psych class. It's no study and it's not scientific in method. I'm a research scientist and this isn't research science, my friends.
You should comment on EB's "survey." Programies seek to sow confusion about what constitutes a clinical study. Perhaps fill them in on that remakable thing called scientific method and protocal.
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I agree with Ursus here....
Thanks for concuring with Ursus. He stated that the study was valid, although conducted by a student, it was overseen by faculty at Colgate University and published in their Scientific journal of Medicine.
So we even have a Research scientitst that agrees this is a valid peer reviewed, published study and since Shapiro had no conections to the industry it is considered Independent.
Here is a bio on the author who conducted the research:
Valerie Shapiro
She was selected to be the 2007 Gottlieb Fellow and awarded summer funding to participate in the NIH Multidisciplinary Predoctoral Clinical Research Training Program. In 2008-2009, she will work with the Social Development Research Group as an NIMH Prevention Trainee using a prevention science framework to research risk and protection factors in child development, the implementation of community-level interventions, and questions regarding the scalability and sustainability of tested-effective programs.
Currently she is working on papers examining whether the SSDP “Students for Sensible Drug Policy” intervention worked better (or worse) for people who were high in behavioral disinhibition/externalizing, as well as a qualitative paper examining the transition to adulthood for youths involved in crime and drugs during adolescence.
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If you drink the Kool-Aid it takes a while to wear off.
Thats why programs run as long as they do. You take the average kid who has been exposed to his friends and doing drugs, out of control and feels he/she just wants to live for today, screw going to school, screw the family, screw tomorrow... lets just party our lives away!!!!!!!!
This is the cool-aid he/she had been drinking for a last few years and finally the parents catch wind and try to get help locally, but once the kid is hooked and set on this life style (i.e. has drank the cool-aid) nothing is going to change his mind..... and that is why programs were invented. It takes awhile to wean the kid off the cool-aid and onto another flavor.. one that is healthier for them.
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"Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger."
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf (http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf)
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^Whooter, spinning his wheels^ Above has been thoroughly debunked for several years. It was a questionaire, not a study. Not peer-reviewed or published, either. 0/10, Whooter.
This was debunked years ago. No need to rehash this old failure, Whooter. If I remember correctly, Deborah fully owned you on this topic several times.
Yes, it was. TheWho got very upset when the numbers showed 65% of ASR graduates go right back to drugs, like his kid did. Many end up dead from ODs before they reach 21, like his kid did.
This was just another survey, filled out by parents of 'graduates' so there can't be any conclusions drawn from it. Ms. Shapiro also commented that it was not a scientific study. Either way, the numbers she came up with looked really bad for ASR.
It showed ASR to be more than 65% ineffective. And that's only for "graduates" which make up only 25% of ASR attendees. So about a 75% failure off the top, then 65% failure of the remaining 25%. Not so good, people. Not so good.
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finally the parents catch wind
:rofl:
And just what were the parents doing for all those years before they "caught wind". :on phone: Lets see, the kid doesn't go to school, hangs with a "bad" crowd, does drugs has a fuck everything except partying attitude and it takes the parents HOW long to "catch wind" of this? Those are some pretty ignorant and neglectful "parents". So instead of facing the consequences of their neglectful, disinterested, "enabling" behavior they punish the kids (and get rid of the annoying problem) by abandoning them to a "program"....
throw some money at it and you are off the hook! You just confirmed my belief that its the parents who belong in programs. :ftard:
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finally the parents catch wind
And just what were the parents doing for all those years before they "caught wind".
They are busy raising a family. Seems all the other kids in the family respect their parents' trust and are doing fine except that little crapper who sneaks out at night and drinks the cool-aid from his friends, lies to his parents and school counsellor, getting caught skipping school and writing false notes... always asking for one more chance and getting his therapist to intercede for him.. until the parents finally get wind of the inevitability that local options are just not working.. so the little snot needs to be shipped off to “programs are us” to try a new flavor of cool-aid which will get him back on track. We all know and seem to agree that the kid did not become out of control over night so it will take time for the new cool-aid to take effect. That is why the program length is set the way it is.
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finally the parents catch wind
And just what were the parents doing for all those years before they "caught wind".
They are busy raising a family. Seems all the other kids in the family respect their parents' trust and are doing fine except that little crapper who sneaks out at night and drinks the cool-aid from his friends, lies to his parents and school counsellor, getting caught skipping school and writing false notes... always asking for one more chance and getting his therapist to intercede for him.. until the parents finally get wind of the inevitability that local options are just not working.. so the little snot needs to be shipped off to “programs are us” to try a new flavor of cool-aid which will get him back on track. We all know and seem to agree that the kid did not become out of control over night so it will take time for the new cool-aid to take effect. That is why the program length is set the way it is.
I hear ya!! It just pisses me off that kids like this play the victim the rest of their lives. Wa,Wa I was sent to a program and never did anything wrong, its all my parents fault that I turned out this way, society owes me a free ride, I was abused in the program ,they forced me to study and clean my own clothes and my room against my will.... I never even had a trial or due process. All my brothers and sisters are doing fine except me, why was I singled out to be the failure in the family?
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finally the parents catch wind
And just what were the parents doing for all those years before they "caught wind".
They are busy raising a family. Seems all the other kids in the family respect their parents' trust and are doing fine except that little crapper who sneaks out at night and drinks the cool-aid from his friends, lies to his parents and school counsellor, getting caught skipping school and writing false notes... always asking for one more chance and getting his therapist to intercede for him.. until the parents finally get wind of the inevitability that local options are just not working.. so the little snot needs to be shipped off to “programs are us” to try a new flavor of cool-aid which will get him back on track. We all know and seem to agree that the kid did not become out of control over night so it will take time for the new cool-aid to take effect. That is why the program length is set the way it is.
Nice try...no cigar. "Busy raising a family"...exactly: too busy to notice there is one "little crapper" who needs some extra vigilance. An attentive parent will figure out sooner rather thal later that the kid is sneaking out etc. Being in constant contact with the school and teachers will nip the false note writing in the bud. With my kid it happened ONE TIME and that was it. After that it was regular checking in with the teachers, monitoring homework etc. I did not let it get out of hand. Its very telling that you keep referencing "parents" who "finally get wind". :rofl:
Let me guess: you ignored your kid, were too busy to notice what was going on until one day you "got
wind" that things were a little out of control so when the shrink couldn't fix it you shipped the little crapper off hoping a program would have the right flavor of Kool-Aid since he wasn't having any of yours. Now the kid is rightously pissed for being shipped off; you're pissed at him ( or her) for not being grateful for all the money you spent. And you are still mad at the little crapper for what he did before you sent him away and pissed as hell that anyone would try to make you feel guilty for :nods: it. :nods:
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Nice try...no cigar. "Busy raising a family"...exactly: too busy to notice there is one "little crapper" who needs some extra vigilance. An attentive parent will figure out sooner rather thal later that the kid is sneaking out etc. Being in constant contact with the school and teachers will nip the false note writing in the bud. With my kid it happened ONE TIME and that was it. After that it was regular checking in with the teachers, monitoring homework etc. I did not let it get out of hand. Its very telling that you keep referencing "parents" who "finally get wind".
I dont think you should have had it happen the first time. You should have cut back on your job or quit and spent more time at home instead of farming your "problem child" out to teachers to do your job for you. If you had raised your child right he/she would not feel the need to lie to you or the teachers and write false notes. This was a red flag that you should not have ignored and should not have brushed it off as a “onetime” occurrence, as you called it, ignoring the underlying problem which caused him to lie in the first place. Oviously this problem was there for awhile, manifesting, before it surfaced in the form of lying to you and his teachers which showed a lack of trust. This is why you had problems with him later on and wasn’t motivated to move on to attend college. Most parents raise kids to be respectful and dont need to keep checking in with teachers every day. If you spent more time with them when they were young then you would not have had those problems.
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I can see I touched a sore spot and my assumptions were correct. Having some anger issues are we? Point scoring. I can see you feel like such a failure as a parent you need to do a little "swift-boating". If this is how you communicated with the little crapper I can see why he refused to drink your Kool-Aid. Developing some real communication skills might help in dealing with the little crapper when he gets paroled.
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I can see I touched a sore spot and my assumptions were correct. Having some anger issues are we? Point scoring. I can see you feel like such a failure as a parent you need to do a little "swift-boating". If this is how you communicated with the little crapper I can see why he refused to drink your Kool-Aid. Developing some real communication skills might help in dealing with the little crapper when he gets paroled.
You toned down a little when the shoe was placed on the other foot lol. So you see your parenting skills where not what you thought they were and that is okay, there is a lot of help and support out there. Try to hang in there and dont dwell on your past failures as much, just try to focus on what you can do today to salvage your relationship with your child.
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I just got back from visiting my son. I picked him up on Sunday and took him out for dinner. I brought some of his favorite CD's so we could listen to music on the drive. We had a great evening. He said he didn't want to talk about The Aspen Ranch. He only wanted to talk about his families and friends. He talked about what he wants to do when he comes home---he wants to finish High School so he can attend college. His goal is to take classes that will enable him to work in the music business, whether it be as a musician or in production. We took a short hike after dinner (there are some buffalo nearby at a place called The Lodge).
On Monday, I visited him at the Ranch. I got to meet two more of his teachers. We went down to look at the horses and we talked to the Equine Therapist. My son loves his horse (Smarty). He says that Smarty is a little "head strong" so they are a perfect fit. I got to see his dorm and his room (both were clean and organized). We took a hike to the top of a nearby mountain and had a long talk. I asked him about all of the staff and he claims that his teachers are "the best" and that his therapist is "pretty good." His only complaint was with one of the night staff (they watch the kids at night). We talked about the kids. He says he has made some great friends. He has made plans with one of the boys to take a "roadtrip" up and down the west coast when they get out. He also spoke of some kids that he didn't like. He told me that he is really working hard at advancing to the next level, as he wants to go snowboarding with me in December/January. He is also working hard at his studies. I told him that I really see a change in his attitude and I asked him what he attributed it to. He says he definitely has had a change in the way he thinks and that it is because he has had a lot of time to think. He claims that talks he has had with some of the staff (the unlicensed ones) about their struggles and how they turned their lives around has really inspired him. I asked him if these staff ever lead any of the group therapy sessions and he said that his therpist leads the sessions, but the staff are easy to talk to when they are just hanging around the dorm. He did tell me that he wants to come home and he wanted to make sure that I was going to make the decision on when to bring him home and I wasn't going to soley rely on The Aspen Ranch to make that decision. I told him that I was going to make the decision and that I was very proud of his efforts and that I wanted to see him continue in this manner.
As you can read, my son has really turned it around. Whether it is because he really is changing for all the right reasons or just because he wants to come home, I don't know for sure, but at least he is "jumping through some hoops." He looked healthy and strong (he has been working out in PE). Our next visit is in early November. I will keep you posted.
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Nigel, I am so glad your visit went well. Your son is progressing beautifully, you must be on cloud nine.
Thanks for posting, I enjoy reading your updates.
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NIGEL Outed as Who's Sock Puppet:
In TheWho's desire to create the perfect fictional success story, he has slipped up and gave away the fact that he is also NIGEL. He's also "Dot MacKinnon" and several other posters.
Pathetic, laughable.
NIGEL, what color was the paint on the exterior of your son's dorm building?
Why did you leave out that your son's complaint against the "night staff" was that they had a sexual encounter? Don't want that bad publicity getting out??
TheWho is such a weak sock-puppeteer...
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Whether it is because he really is changing for all the right reasons or just because he wants to come home, I don't know for sure, but at least he is "jumping through some hoops." He looked healthy and strong (he has been working out in PE). Our next visit is in early November. I will keep you posted.
Nigel, I am so glad your visit went well. Your son is progressing beautifully, you must be on cloud nine.
Thanks for posting, I enjoy reading your updates.
Substitute the word "dog" for "son" in the above shite and he might as well be talking about his Golden Retriever. How is his coat looking Mistah R? Did they clear up the stank breath? Once they've modified him they'll return him like a fresh, hot pizza and he won't do drugs, chase cars, piss on the rug or spend his days idly humping neighborhood bitches.
Good boy.
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NIGEL Outed as Who's Sock Puppet:
In TheWho's desire to create the perfect fictional success story, he has slipped up and gave away the fact that he is also NIGEL. He's also "Dot MacKinnon" and several other posters.
Pathetic, laughable.
NIGEL, what color was the paint on the exterior of your son's dorm building?
Why did you leave out that your son's complaint against the "night staff" was that they had a sexual encounter? Don't want that bad publicity getting out??
TheWho is such a weak sock-puppeteer...
I figured I would get this kind of response. I'll answer your questions, even though I'm pretty sure you aren't looking for the answers: The exterior of the dorm room is brown---it's a wood building (but anyone could have told you this as you can see pictures of it on their website). The complaint about the one staff member was that my son feels he is a little power hungry.
I obviously am not going to change your opinions about me, or maybe you just post comments like these to get a response from me (it worked). Either way, I will continue to post about what is going on with my son. While things look great right now, I also know that things can change. I am not posting here to advocate for the Ranch----only to ask questions, get advice, and make sure I am looking at things from all angles.
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Sorry, "NIGEL" but your answers are too atock and your common misspellings, phraseology and grammar errors reveal you are nothing more than TheWho's sockpuppet. Thanks for playing, but you've been around too long to hide your traits from people.
Which licensed therapist is your son seeing "NIGEL"?
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The avoidance of contractions and difficulty with idioms in the who/Nigel/John D. Reuben/STICC postings indicate English is not the writer's first language.
Reuben's company:
http://www.correlsense.com/company/team (http://www.correlsense.com/company/team)
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The avoidance of contractions and difficulty with idioms in the who/Nigel/John D. Reuben/STICC postings indicate English is not the writer's first language.
Reuben's company:
http://www.correlsense.com/company/team (http://www.correlsense.com/company/team)
English is my first language, but definitely not my expertise. I am a math teacher. I have the day off after traveling to DC with my 8th graders for a week and then heading to Utah as soon as I got back. I am not going to name my son's therapist at this time because I am not sure how I feel about that. If that causes you to question my authenticity, so be it.
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Whether it is because he really is changing for all the right reasons or just because he wants to come home, I don't know for sure, but at least he is "jumping through some hoops." He looked healthy and strong (he has been working out in PE). Our next visit is in early November. I will keep you posted.
Nigel, I am so glad your visit went well. Your son is progressing beautifully, you must be on cloud nine.
Thanks for posting, I enjoy reading your updates.
Substitute the word "dog" for "son" in the above shite and he might as well be talking about his Golden Retriever. How is his coat looking Mistah R? Did they clear up the stank breath? Once they've modified him they'll return him like a fresh, hot pizza and he won't do drugs, chase cars, piss on the rug or spend his days idly humping neighborhood bitches.
Good boy.
shiny coat n' ther' fixin' im'...bahaahahaahhaaahahahahahahaah theheheheheheheehheehehehheehheh baahahaahahahahaha oh ahum, tee heeeheheheheheheeeeee
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Hmmm…. Seems the locals are tad upset that programs are not abusive like they have been touting here for years. Seems there haven’t been any kids locked up in hobbits or sat on by 300 lb staff members since Nigels son has been there. Never heard anything about detainees, prisons, guards, take downs, starvation diets, whippings or screaming at night.
Lol Might need to roll it back a few more decades and talk about Straight and CEDU…ahhh the early years. Now Lets get out there and inform some parents on how abusive these places are.
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I just got back from visiting my son. I picked him up on Sunday and took him out for dinner. I brought some of his favorite CD's so we could listen to music on the drive. We had a great evening. He said he didn't want to talk about The Aspen Ranch. He only wanted to talk about his families and friends. He talked about what he wants to do when he comes home---he wants to finish High School so he can attend college. His goal is to take classes that will enable him to work in the music business, whether it be as a musician or in production. We took a short hike after dinner (there are some buffalo nearby at a place called The Lodge).
On Monday, I visited him at the Ranch. I got to meet two more of his teachers. We went down to look at the horses and we talked to the Equine Therapist. My son loves his horse (Smarty). He says that Smarty is a little "head strong" so they are a perfect fit. I got to see his dorm and his room (both were clean and organized). We took a hike to the top of a nearby mountain and had a long talk. I asked him about all of the staff and he claims that his teachers are "the best" and that his therapist is "pretty good." His only complaint was with one of the night staff (they watch the kids at night). We talked about the kids. He says he has made some great friends. He has made plans with one of the boys to take a "roadtrip" up and down the west coast when they get out. He also spoke of some kids that he didn't like. He told me that he is really working hard at advancing to the next level, as he wants to go snowboarding with me in December/January. He is also working hard at his studies. I told him that I really see a change in his attitude and I asked him what he attributed it to. He says he definitely has had a change in the way he thinks and that it is because he has had a lot of time to think. He claims that talks he has had with some of the staff (the unlicensed ones) about their struggles and how they turned their lives around has really inspired him. I asked him if these staff ever lead any of the group therapy sessions and he said that his therpist leads the sessions, but the staff are easy to talk to when they are just hanging around the dorm. He did tell me that he wants to come home and he wanted to make sure that I was going to make the decision on when to bring him home and I wasn't going to soley rely on The Aspen Ranch to make that decision. I told him that I was going to make the decision and that I was very proud of his efforts and that I wanted to see him continue in this manner.
As you can read, my son has really turned it around. Whether it is because he really is changing for all the right reasons or just because he wants to come home, I don't know for sure, but at least he is "jumping through some hoops." He looked healthy and strong (he has been working out in PE). Our next visit is in early November. I will keep you posted.
I wonder a bit about your son's desire not to talk about what's going on at Aspen Ranch (dinner on Sunday). Without placing undue focus on it, it does seem as though he's trying to avoid what may be a controversial topic between the two of you. This is echoed in his concern over whether you will rely on Aspen Ranch's determination, as opposed to your assessment, as to when he can come home.
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Exactly. These kids wise up quick once they understand saying anything negative about the program will cause them to stay even LONGER. He's doing what he feels he has to do in order to have some hope of getting out.
He's also getting a good education from his peers on how to lie, cheat, steal, smuggle in dope, get laid, etc at Aspen Ranch which is notorious for bad supervision and known as a "good hookup " school amongst the juveniles. These kids are having sex every day at Aspen Ranch and smuggling in dope and and alcohol (or buying/trading it from the employees).
Two things are for sure. 1 - he's gonna hate NIGEL but won't say so until after he gets out or turns 18 and 2 - he's going to be far sneakier and more manipulative when he does finally get home.
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Exactly. These kids wise up quick once they understand saying anything negative about the program will cause them to stay even LONGER. He's doing what he feels he has to do in order to have some hope of getting out.
He's also getting a good education from his peers on how to lie, cheat, steal, smuggle in dope, get laid, etc at Aspen Ranch which is notorious for bad supervision and known as a "good hookup " school amongst the juveniles. These kids are having sex every day at Aspen Ranch and smuggling in dope and and alcohol (or buying/trading it from the employees).
Two things are for sure. 1 - he's gonna hate NIGEL but won't say so until after he gets out or turns 18 and 2 - he's going to be far sneakier and more manipulative when he does finally get home.
To Ursus:
I never got the feeling he didn't want to talk about The Ranch at dinner because it is a controversial topic. My impression is that we were both enjoying each others company and my son was very happy to be out to dinner (we went to Cafe Diablo in Torrey and had steaks). He loves his extended family and he wanted to hear about them. A couple of my son's friends told me to say hi and he wanted to talk about them. On Monday, our conversations were pretty much all about the ranch and how my son was doing. I asked very pointed questions and gave him every opportunity to tell me about what was wrong with The Aspen Ranch. I left feeling like we had a great visit and that he has made tremendous progress. Whether this progress is going to continue or not, who knows, but at least we are moving in the right direction.
To the "guest" above:
Your comments are so absurd that I won't comment further about them.
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Whether it is because he really is changing for all the right reasons or just because he wants to come home, I don't know for sure, but at least he is "jumping through some hoops." He looked healthy and strong (he has been working out in PE). Our next visit is in early November. I will keep you posted.
Nigel, I am so glad your visit went well. Your son is progressing beautifully, you must be on cloud nine.
Thanks for posting, I enjoy reading your updates.
Substitute the word "dog" for "son" in the above shite and he might as well be talking about his Golden Retriever. How is his coat looking Mistah R? Did they clear up the stank breath? Once they've modified him they'll return him like a fresh, hot pizza and he won't do drugs, chase cars, piss on the rug or spend his days idly humping neighborhood bitches.
Good boy.
shiny coat n' ther' fixin' im'...bahaahahaahhaaahahahahahahaah theheheheheheheehheehehehheehheh baahahaahahahahaha oh ahum, tee heeeheheheheheheeeeee
Still confounded by those goddamn contractions and how to use 'em properly. You're trippin'.
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Exactly. These kids wise up quick once they understand saying anything negative about the program will cause them to stay even LONGER. He's doing what he feels he has to do in order to have some hope of getting out.
He's also getting a good education from his peers on how to lie, cheat, steal, smuggle in dope, get laid, etc at Aspen Ranch which is notorious for bad supervision and known as a "good hookup " school amongst the juveniles. These kids are having sex every day at Aspen Ranch and smuggling in dope and and alcohol (or buying/trading it from the employees).
Two things are for sure. 1 - he's gonna hate NIGEL but won't say so until after he gets out or turns 18 and 2 - he's going to be far sneakier and more manipulative when he does finally get home.
To Ursus:
I never got the feeling he didn't want to talk about The Ranch at dinner because it is a controversial topic. My impression is that we were both enjoying each others company and my son was very happy to be out to dinner (we went to Cafe Diablo in Torrey and had steaks). He loves his extended family and he wanted to hear about them. A couple of my son's friends told me to say hi and he wanted to talk about them. On Monday, our conversations were pretty much all about the ranch and how my son was doing. I asked very pointed questions and gave him every opportunity to tell me about what was wrong with The Aspen Ranch. I left feeling like we had a great visit and that he has made tremendous progress. Whether this progress is going to continue or not, who knows, but at least we are moving in the right direction.
To the "guest" above:
Your comments are so absurd that I won't comment further about them.
Well... folks sure have different ways of communicating things sometimes... However, Guest did clue in to my concerns. Often, kids subjugate these sentiments and experiences for a l-o-n-g time, even once they are out of the program, possibly out of a need for psychological survival or for their world to "make sense." You may not even hear of some of the abuses that went on, in their appropriate context, 'till years later. And they don't even need to have happened specifically to your son, for them to have negative impact on him.
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Hey, Nigel, I am Happy you had a nice visit with your son. He seems to be doing well and moving along. So you are going back next month? That’s quick, I had a few months in between visits, although it was a different program. Does it seem like he will be carrying his interest for riding home with him. My daughter worked at a horse farm after she came home and eventually adopted a horse. She didn’t have access to horses at her program but it was one of her “to do” things for when she got home and she followed thru with it.
To the others here:
Your reading way too much into it. His son has been living “The Ranch” 24/7. If you hopped in the car with your dad and only had a few hours to visit what would you want to talk about? He probably wants to hear about what’s going on at home , i.e. “News from the outside world!!” lol and maybe talk about his new thoughts and his future plans..
If he were having problems there then Nigel would know it right off… “Dad, you have to get me out of this place”….. “You don’t know what they do to us in there”….. “I am not going back in there ever!!!”
I dont believe Aspen Ranch will ever be one of the highlights of his life no matter how much it helps him because it will also be a reminder of the events that lead him to be placed there. As he grows and matures his time at Aspen Ranch will be viewed simply as a “Speed bump” in his life nothing really to rejoice nothing to regret.
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Why bother logging in now, "Dot"? Nobody cares what you say. You've been trolling this thread for weeks under all sorts of pseudonyms, so why bother logging in now? Needed another pro-persona? There's your sockpuppet, NIGEL, and the rest of you already.
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I just got off the phone with my son. We talked about my recent visit and our feelings after I left. My son has continued to work hard and is really trying to get to the next level (greenhorn) so we can go snowboarding over christmas. My wife is visiting in two weeks for 3 days (this is a family visit where kids, parents, and therapists get together for some workshops). I am then going to visit over Thanksgiving and the whole family will go out for Christmas. I am hoping and praying that things will continue on this upward trend, as he seems much more positive and he has started to think more about his future. He was sadest today when he talked about his friends. He claims he has a lot of friends to appologize to and he is worried that when he comes home he is going to have to make new friends (my son has always had a hard time making friends). We ended the call on a positive note (talking about him getting a dog when he comes home). I will report again next Monday.
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Ha, Ha, Ha. Whooter is getting his sorry ass handed to him in several other threads. The solution? PULL OUT NIGEL! Classic trolling.
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Ha, Ha, Ha. Whooter is getting his sorry ass handed to him in several other threads. The solution? PULL OUT NIGEL! Classic trolling.
LOLS. So true. Desperate trolling, but so true.
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Ha, Ha, Ha. Whooter is getting his sorry ass handed to him in several other threads. The solution? PULL OUT NIGEL! Classic trolling.
Next Monday I will make sure to say my son is doing terrible and he is being abused. In group therapy he will have been abused by non-licensed staff. He will have gotten drugs and liquor from the staff and had sex with one of the girls. Will all of this make you happy?
I would think you would be happy to hear how my son is doing. I would think you would find it interesting to hear from a current parent on their experiences with The Aspen Ranch. Right now my son is improving (I would hope you are all rooting for him), but I am not blind to the fact that he could also revert back to how he was before. Either way, I will report on this forum.
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He claims he has a lot of friends to appologize to...
Classic 12-Step material. Did ya realize that your son would probably be subjected to a bastardized version of AA (in addition to everything else)?
Unlike community-based AA, which I have plenty to disagree with on its own anyway, this version he cannot walk away from, or "take what he needs, and leave the rest." This version is part of the program.
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He claims he has a lot of friends to appologize to...
Classic 12-Step material. Did ya realize that your son would probably be subjected to a bastardized version of AA (in addition to everything else)?
Unlike community-based AA, which I have plenty to disagree with on its own anyway, this version he cannot walk away from, or "take what he needs, and leave the rest." This version is part of the program.
Ursus: He specifically mentioned two friends he wants to appologize to: one friends family took him in when he ran away from my home and treated him very well. He responded by stealing liquor from their liquor cabinet. He feels he wants to let this family know how he now feels about this. The other person is a friend of his that he introduced marijuana and lsd to. That same friend got into a fair amount of trouble and is just now starting to turn things around. My son feels he had something to do with this and wants to applogize. I support both of these decisions. Please let me know why this wouldn't be a good idea.
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Of possible interest to you, Nigel: Excerpt (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27903&p=348907#p348907) re. long term efficacy of RTCs from Surgeon General David Satcher's report.
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Ha, Ha, Ha. Whooter is getting his sorry ass handed to him in several other threads. The solution? PULL OUT NIGEL! Classic trolling.
Next Monday I will make sure to say my son is doing terrible and he is being abused. In group therapy he will have been abused by non-licensed staff. He will have gotten drugs and liquor from the staff and had sex with one of the girls. Will all of this make you happy?
I would think you would be happy to hear how my son is doing. I would think you would find it interesting to hear from a current parent on their experiences with The Aspen Ranch. Right now my son is improving (I would hope you are all rooting for him), but I am not blind to the fact that he could also revert back to how he was before. Either way, I will report on this forum.
I sort of predicted this response from the onset, Nigel, and am sorry you have to put up with it. But the response reinforces what I have mentioned here all along. It is very apparent that many fornits posters are not pro children, just anti-program. Doesn’t really matter to them if the kids are doing well or not and they dont want to hear anything which shows programs to be a positive influence on anyone. If a child gets killed or abused then this place lights up like a cheap whore house on a Saturday night in Navy town. Posters unite and talk about old times. When good news surfaces about programs people are miserable and bad mouth everyone that says anything to support the news or studies. No one will discuss studies which show programs to be effective.
If your son were being abused we would be on page 100 by now but your success so far doesnt fill or support their agenda. The reality scares people here. Regardless of how well your son does they will fill you with propaganda and tell you to wait 5 years, and if your son slips up 5 years from now they will sit back and say “See, we were right, it was the programs fault”. They will be able to get back into their comfort zone.
Right now no one will discuss anything positive regarding programs. Your posts bring to the surface the reality that is sorely missing here and hopefully will create a more balanced and realistic view and discussion on the industry as it exists today. The attacks against you means that you are making a difference and forcing people to think independently and maybe seeing programs a little differently which is difficult for them, takes them out of their comfort zone, which results in anger and personal attacks.
Thank you for your updates, Nigel,there are many of us that look forward to your posts.
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Ha, Ha, Ha. Whooter is getting his sorry ass handed to him in several other threads. The solution? PULL OUT NIGEL! Classic trolling.
Next Monday I will make sure to say my son is doing terrible and he is being abused. In group therapy he will have been abused by non-licensed staff. He will have gotten drugs and liquor from the staff and had sex with one of the girls. Will all of this make you happy?
I would think you would be happy to hear how my son is doing. I would think you would find it interesting to hear from a current parent on their experiences with The Aspen Ranch. Right now my son is improving (I would hope you are all rooting for him), but I am not blind to the fact that he could also revert back to how he was before. Either way, I will report on this forum.
Oops! You let a little of the Whooter persona come out, 'NIGEL'. Ha, ha, ha. Very poor trolling by TheWho with awful character control. The idea of a sockpuppet is to make it look different from the puppeteer. EPIC FAIL, Whooter.
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Just a quick update: We had our phone call with my son yesterday. His therapist reports that he is moving forward with his academics and that he is working hard towards his next level. All of us are seeing progress (including my son). I asked my son if he was doing well because he has really changed or was it just to try to get out of The Aspen Ranch sooner, to which he replied "probably a little of each." I can accept that, as when he was home he was not willing to do anything and saw no value in trying to do any work. My wife goes out next week for 4 days to a "family week." There will be workshops for both the kids and the parents and also some time for her to meet with both my son and his therapist. He will also be able to go on an off-campus visit with my wife (they are both looking forward to it). I will write more after the visit.
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Just a quick update: We had our phone call with my son yesterday. His therapist reports that he is moving forward with his academics and that he is working hard towards his next level. All of us are seeing progress (including my son). I asked my son if he was doing well because he has really changed or was it just to try to get out of The Aspen Ranch sooner, to which he replied "probably a little of each." I can accept that, as when he was home he was not willing to do anything and saw no value in trying to do any work. My wife goes out next week for 4 days to a "family week." There will be workshops for both the kids and the parents and also some time for her to meet with both my son and his therapist. He will also be able to go on an off-campus visit with my wife (they are both looking forward to it). I will write more after the visit.
Make sure to let us know how those workshops go. In my experience they're a real hoot (http://http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/abuse.html#fswDescription).
:suicide:
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Thanks Nigel for the update. I would be interested too, to see how much the workshops vary from my own experience. Psy I think someone might had pulled your leg a little when they gave you that info. Either that or it is from a defunct model. Wow, if they are doing stuff like that I would be surprised. These places are not about humiliation or dressing up. Plus I don’t know a parent who wouldn’t stand up and pull their kid out on the spot if that really ever occurred. The workshops we attended as parents were more informational…ie. Parental techniques, trying to understand how we all got to this point, experiencing first hand a little of the work your son/daughter is doing in group.
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Thanks Nigel for the update. I would be interested too, to see how much the workshops vary from my own experience. Psy I think someone might had pulled your leg a little when they gave you that info. Either that or it is from a defunct model. Wow, if they are doing stuff like that I would be surprised. These places are not about humiliation or dressing up. Plus I don’t know a parent who wouldn’t stand up and pull their kid out on the spot if that really ever occurred. The workshops we attended as parents were more informational…ie. Parental techniques, trying to understand how we all got to this point, experiencing first hand a little of the work your son/daughter is doing in group.
^^This poster^^ obviously has no idea what Aspen Life Steps are like. They force kids to dress up and confess "sins" like being a rape victim. They make the girls call themselves "sluts" and "whores." It's quite therapeutic, or at least Aspen says so. That is, when they're not claiming not to provide therapy.
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Thanks Nigel for the update. I would be interested too, to see how much the workshops vary from my own experience. Psy I think someone might had pulled your leg a little when they gave you that info. Either that or it is from a defunct model. Wow, if they are doing stuff like that I would be surprised. These places are not about humiliation or dressing up. Plus I don’t know a parent who wouldn’t stand up and pull their kid out on the spot if that really ever occurred. The workshops we attended as parents were more informational…ie. Parental techniques, trying to understand how we all got to this point, experiencing first hand a little of the work your son/daughter is doing in group.
^^This poster^^ obviously has no idea what Aspen Life Steps are like. They force kids to dress up and confess "sins" like being a rape victim. They make the girls call themselves "sluts" and "whores." It's quite therapeutic, or at least Aspen says so. That is, when they're not claiming not to provide therapy.
This is why I found it hard to believe what is written here, even from the beginning. Some of the stories seemed reasonable but desperation posts like the above are so far out in left field it makes you wonder where the truth ends and the BS begins on the forum. The parents weekend visit was very enjoyable for the parents and the kids when I went. We all got to take our kids away for the weekend. We were all happy to see each other and attended some of the workshops with our kids.
Think about it, if anyone called someone elses kid a slut or a whore and forced them to dress up like one they would be in jail in a heart beat. These are just scare tactics by the anti program types.
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This is why I found it hard to believe what is written here, even from the beginning. Some of the stories seemed reasonable but desperation posts like the above are so far out in left field it makes you wonder where the truth ends and the BS begins on the forum.
He's paraphrasing Time magazine, actually, on *their* description of Life Steps. Very similar skits at Benchmark as well. No doubt they don't make the parents go through quite the same thing but they get their own dose of LGAT wackiness.
if anyone called someone elses kid a slut or a whore and forced them to dress up like one they would be in jail in a heart beat. These are just scare tactics by the anti program types.
Time magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... -3,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1891082-3,00.html)
One 18-year-old former student and victim of rape wept while recounting what happened to her during a Lifesteps seminar. Jane, who asked not to be identified by her real name, left the school in March. "They had me dress up as a French maid," she said, describing an outfit that included fishnet stockings and a short skirt. "I had to sit on guys' laps and give them lap dances," while sexually suggestive songs, like "Milkshake" by Kelis, played at high volume.
"They told me I was dirty and I had to put mud on myself for being raped," she said in reference to another Lifesteps session. "They basically blamed me for getting raped."
And you can believe an org like Time doesn't print stuff like that unless they have corroborating evidence.
CEDU had the same shtick, go figure. At CEDU they called them "Propheets" at some other programs they're called "workshops" or "seminars". At Aspen it appears they're called "LifeSteps". If the kids were making this shit up the script wouldn't be so damn near identical. Only one plausible explanation: common origins.
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Exactly, like I said if anyone pulls this crap they are going to be exposed and sued, (just like the public school teacher who was sleeping with her students.) This does not go unnoticed. The Time article shows this. I dont know a parent who would allow this to be done to themselves in a group or private setting. If their kids were exposed to this then they would do what any parent would do and that is contact the media, the police and it would end up in the papers or Time magazine (like the above). Its good press and sells magazines so if it is happening they will print it.
My experience isnt even close to this. Just like the majority of our kids are not raped by the teachers. The workshops were fun and informative and many of them the kids went thru with the parents present.
When Nigel gets back we will see if this is just another fornits scare tactic or not.
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First of all, when I log in it says that I can't use my username "Nigel", so I have been signing in with different names. Anyone know what I am doing wrong?
As for the "family week" workshops, my wife is going alone, so I will report what she tells me. If there is anything going on that my wife disaproves of she will let me, The Aspen Ranch, and anyone else who will listen know about it (trust me on this one). From the looks of it, some time will be spent in groups, and some time will be spent with our son's therapist. Sometimes the kids will be with the parents and sometimes not. My wife will be taking my son off campus on the last day and I am 100% positive that if any type of abuse is or has occured, my son will let his Mom know. She will also be spending a fair amount of time with other parents, so I am sure she will get to hear some of their experiences so far. I will report what I find out.
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First of all, when I log in it says that I can't use my username "Nigel", so I have been signing in with different names. Anyone know what I am doing wrong?
Contact me and we can sort it out (email [email protected]). Are you sure you're trying to log in (link on top right), or are you just typing "Nigel" in the name field?
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First of all, when I log in it says that I can't use my username "Nigel", so I have been signing in with different names. Anyone know what I am doing wrong?
Contact me and we can sort it out (email [email protected]). Are you sure you're trying to log in (link on top right), or are you just typing "Nigel" in the name field?
Thanks Psy.
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Exactly, like I said if anyone pulls this crap they are going to be exposed and sued, (just like the public school teacher who was sleeping with her students.) This does not go unnoticed. The Time article shows this. I dont know a parent who would allow this to be done to themselves in a group or private setting. If their kids were exposed to this then they would do what any parent would do and that is contact the media, the police and it would end up in the papers or Time magazine (like the above). Its good press and sells magazines so if it is happening they will print it.
My experience isnt even close to this. Just like the majority of our kids are not raped by the teachers. The workshops were fun and informative and many of them the kids went thru with the parents present.
When Nigel gets back we will see if this is just another fornits scare tactic or not.
Sorry, Whooter, you're wrong again. As the Time article clearly explains, this DOES go on all the time. It goes on every day in Aspen programs - attack 'therapy' and LifeSteps 'seminars'. To deny this only means you are out of touch with the industry. Everyone else, including the mainstream media (e.g. Time magazine), knows it IS happening and they are reporting it.
Most, if not all, programs, use PRECISELY this methodology. The worst offender is indeed ASPEN, where they provide confrontation, forced confession and LGATs, but NOT therapy, as they indicated in the lawsuit.
Whooter has VERY limited understanding of this industry and his personal experience is marginal and ten years old. Don't rely on him as a source for ANYTHING relevent or up to date.
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The fact that Oregon law enforcement and Dept of Human Services are investigating Aspen Education Group's Mount Bachelor Academy, and Time Magazine is reporting on it, shows that inappropriate and sexualized "therapy" is a current practice at a current Aspen facility. Nor is this an isolated incident. The facility was investigated in the late 1990s for the same practices. In addition, Aspen's SageWalk facility has been shut down by authorities after a 16-year-old boy died there just 60 days ago. Current practices at current facilities under current lousy management.
If Aspen's staff and the corporate owners at CRC Bain Capital http://http://www.crchealth.com/investor-relations.php are unable to provide proper oversight of what is considered by supporters to be "one of the good programs," then there is no guarantee that any other program is not doing the same thing. The model these programs follow is fundamentally flawed. Staff have too little training and too much power over children who are too vulnerable and powerless. It is a recipe for physical, emotional and sexual abuse. The mental health exercises they follow do not conform to any treatment modalities practiced or taught at reputable institutions anywhere in this country.
Auntie Em
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The fact that Oregon law enforcement and Dept of Human Services are investigating Aspen Education Group's Mount Bachelor Academy, and Time Magazine is reporting on it, shows that inappropriate and sexualized "therapy" is a current practice at a current Aspen facility. Nor is this an isolated incident. The facility was investigated in the late 1990s for the same practices. In addition, Aspen's SageWalk facility has been shut down by authorities after a 16-year-old boy died there just 60 days ago. Current practices at current facilities under current lousy management.
If Aspen's staff and the corporate owners at CRC Bain Capital http://http://www.crchealth.com/investor-relations.php are unable to provide proper oversight of what is considered by supporters to be "one of the good programs," then there is no guarantee that any other program is not doing the same thing. The model these programs follow is fundamentally flawed. Staff have too little training and too much power over children who are too vulnerable and powerless. It is a recipe for physical, emotional and sexual abuse. The mental health exercises they follow do not conform to any treatment modalities practiced or taught at reputable institutions anywhere in this country.
Auntie Em
Amen....that last sentiment.......
(http://http://a4.vox.com/6a00c225257507604a00fae8c21e94000b-500pi)
I love that pic!!!!
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The model these programs follow is fundamentally flawed. Staff have too little training and too much power over children who are too vulnerable and powerless. It is a recipe for physical, emotional and sexual abuse. The mental health exercises they follow do not conform to any treatment modalities practiced or taught at reputable institutions anywhere in this country.
Amen....that last sentiment.......
(http://http://a4.vox.com/6a00c225257507604a00fae8c21e94000b-500pi)
I love that pic!!!!
Yes, Ma'am!! :D
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The model these programs follow is fundamentally flawed. Staff have too little training and too much power over children who are too vulnerable and powerless. It is a recipe for physical, emotional and sexual abuse. The mental health exercises they follow do not conform to any treatment modalities practiced or taught at reputable institutions anywhere in this country.
Amen....that last sentiment.......
(http://http://a4.vox.com/6a00c225257507604a00fae8c21e94000b-500pi)
I love that pic!!!!
Yes, Ma'am!! :D
First of all---the picture of the bears is great. I was in Berlin last summer (with my boys) and as we walked around the city, we took pictures of as many bears as we could find.
As for the report and lawsuit about abuse, I promise to look into this further and ask more questions of the Ranch. The only thing I can report on right now is what is currently going on with my son at The Aspen Ranch. My son hasn't reported anything to me that even comes close to any of the events described. I asked him questions about all the individual therapy he receives, as well as the group therapy that his team does (these are lead by his therapist). I believe that my son is dramatically improving at this point. Whether it is because of what The Aspen Ranch is doing or because he needed a drastic "wake up call" I don't know for sure (my guess is that it is a little of both). Whether he will continue in this improving pattern and then keep it up at home remains to be seen, but right now we are seeing positive results (and so is my son). We will be visiting The Ranch 3 times over the next two months and will do as much as we can to make sure that my son is in a safe and nurturing environment (right now it appears it is). I will keep updating this topic to let you all know how it goes.
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First of all---the picture of the bears is great. I was in Berlin last summer (with my boys) and as we walked around the city, we took pictures of as many bears as we could find.
Lovely, but it was meant to convey the phrase "Bears Repeating". As in, the statement referred to is correct and it needs to be said over and over again.
As for the report and lawsuit about abuse, I promise to look into this further and ask more questions of the Ranch. The only thing I can report on right now is what is currently going on with my son at The Aspen Ranch. My son hasn't reported anything to me that even comes close to any of the events described. I asked him questions about all the individual therapy he receives, as well as the group therapy that his team does (these are lead by his therapist). I believe that my son is dramatically improving at this point. Whether it is because of what The Aspen Ranch is doing or because he needed a drastic "wake up call" I don't know for sure (my guess is that it is a little of both). Whether he will continue in this improving pattern and then keep it up at home remains to be seen, but right now we are seeing positive results (and so is my son). We will be visiting The Ranch 3 times over the next two months and will do as much as we can to make sure that my son is in a safe and nurturing environment (right now it appears it is). I will keep updating this topic to let you all know how it goes.
You have no idea what is going on behind closed doors and your son won't be likely to even understand it until years after he's been out. What a shame. Most of us that 'graduated' would've told you that it "saved our lives". We found out very differently.
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Exactly, like I said if anyone pulls this crap they are going to be exposed and sued, (just like the public school teacher who was sleeping with her students.) This does not go unnoticed. The Time article shows this. I dont know a parent who would allow this to be done to themselves in a group or private setting. If their kids were exposed to this then they would do what any parent would do and that is contact the media, the police and it would end up in the papers or Time magazine (like the above). Its good press and sells magazines so if it is happening they will print it.
My experience isnt even close to this. Just like the majority of our kids are not raped by the teachers. The workshops were fun and informative and many of them the kids went thru with the parents present.
When Nigel gets back we will see if this is just another fornits scare tactic or not.
Sorry, Whooter, you're wrong again. As the Time article clearly explains, this DOES go on all the time....
Whoa, I almost took the article serious for a minute there until I noticed that the article was written by Maia Szalavitz as she continues tout her book utilizing shill journalism. Notice how she wraps a current story around outdated information. She needs to keep up the facade that these places are evil to keep her sales up, expensive living in New York. We also notice sales of her book were slumping a bit this year. I have never met anyone (outside of fornits) who took the book seriously,though.
She found a niche and profited handsomely by it.
Notice at the end of the article:
Maia Szalavitz is a freelance journalist in New York City and author of the book Help At Any Cost: How the Troubled-Teen Industry Cons Parents and Hurts Kids (Riverhead, 2006).
Funny how everyone here on fornits omitted this when referencing the article.
It will be interesting to get a current first hand perspective as Nigel continues to report.
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Yes, absolutely true! Maia Szalavitz has researched and written about the abuses in the troubled teen industry for years. Read her book. Notice the 20+ pages of documentation of research sources. She is an experienced, respected investigative journalist. That's why she gets hired by publications like Time Magazine.
So, Nigel. Two months at Aspen becomes four months becomes six months. Everything is proceeding according to plan.
Having fun writing those $7,000 checks? That $28K to date, and closing in on $42K by Christmas.
Soon will come the new diagnosis of a more serious mental illness--conduct disorder or Asperger's, for example--and an urgent, uber-sincere recommendation to send your boy to a boarding school. "Openings are scarce, but it just so happens we can get you in if you act right now!"
I'm sorry to put it bluntly, but you have abdicated your role as parent. There is nothing brave and honorable about what you have done to your own flesh and blood. I just can't be polite about this today. I can only hope you wife sees the light.
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Exactly, like I said if anyone pulls this crap they are going to be exposed and sued, (just like the public school teacher who was sleeping with her students.) This does not go unnoticed. The Time article shows this. I dont know a parent who would allow this to be done to themselves in a group or private setting. If their kids were exposed to this then they would do what any parent would do and that is contact the media, the police and it would end up in the papers or Time magazine (like the above). Its good press and sells magazines so if it is happening they will print it.
My experience isnt even close to this. Just like the majority of our kids are not raped by the teachers. The workshops were fun and informative and many of them the kids went thru with the parents present.
When Nigel gets back we will see if this is just another fornits scare tactic or not.
Sorry, Whooter, you're wrong again. As the Time article clearly explains, this DOES go on all the time....
Whoa, I almost took the article serious for a minute there until I noticed that the article was written by Maia Szalavitz as she continues tout her book utilizing shill journalism. Notice how she wraps a current story around outdated information. She needs to keep up the facade that these places are evil to keep her sales up, expensive living in New York. We also notice sales of her book were slumping a bit this year. I have never met anyone (outside of fornits) who took the book seriously,though.
She found a niche and profited handsomely by it.
Notice at the end of the article:
Maia Szalavitz is a freelance journalist in New York City and author of the book Help At Any Cost: How the Troubled-Teen Industry Cons Parents and Hurts Kids (Riverhead, 2006).
Funny how everyone here on fornits omitted this when referencing the article.
It will be interesting to get a current first hand perspective as Nigel continues to report.
Nice catch! I read it too and didnt realize it was a Maia article until you pointed it out. Mostly fiction as she is trying to drum up customers for her book. I also liked how she wrapped the current news article around he previous fiction, makes it look credible. She never spent a minute inside one of these places. There are books written by pulitzer prize winning authors who spent over a year "Inside" programs and never found any abuse. The books blow the doors off her credibility. Its an interesting read and great insight on the going ons inside a program. But you wont see it mentioned here because there was no abuse to be found or reported.
I will see if I can get a link up for everyone.
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There are books written by pulitzer prize winning authors who spent over a year "Inside" programs and never found any abuse.
*****CITATION NEEDED*******
Unless said author went in undercover as a teen being admitted, there is no way in hell they spent "over a year inside".
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There are books written by pulitzer prize winning authors who spent over a year "Inside" programs and never found any abuse.
*****CITATION NEEDED*******
Unless said author went in undercover as a teen being admitted, there is no way in hell they spent "over a year inside".
Sorry, it took so long.... Here it is:
DaveMarcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter
for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas
Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on
violence against women around the world. Marcus also was a Nieman Fellow at
Harvard. After a twenty-four year career in journalism, he spent a year as
a high school teacher at Deerfield Academy in Massachusetts.
About the Book
A Pulitzer Prize-winning writer untangles the mysteries of the
teenage mind as he witnesses troubled kids transformed by fourteen
months at a school that offers therapy for adolescents in
crisis.
To find answers, Marcus gained unfettered access to students, staff,
and parents at the Academy at Swift River in the hills of western
Massachusetts. The kids at Swift River had already ventured down a
number of perilous paths all parents fear their own children might
take – drug use, violence, theft, internet addictions, eating disorders,
promiscuity. Known for combining intensive academics, a wilderness
program and group therapy, the school helps troubled teenagers emotional
health.
He focuses on four remarkable kids who run the demographic gamut:
--a Southern girl whose privileges cannot save her from sinking into
drug abuse and unsafe sex;
--the self-destructive son of teachers grappling with his anger about
being adopted;
--a black kid from a tough New York neighborhood who is silenced by
consuming depression;
--a once high-achieving Florida girl "broken" by the death of her mother.
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Huh, so if Academy at Swift River is one of the toughest programs, as most people say here, then the others like Aspen Ranch must be mild in comparison. The book shows no signs of abuse or screaming at kids, calling them whores and sluts. I always thought this was a stretch and had little truth to it. If a parent ever found out that someone was calling their kid those things the place would be shut down in a heart beat. You know how stories can get out of hand. The kids were probably called lazy slobs for not cleaning thier rooms and the kids interpreted this as abuse.
Its good to read that these programs are not really all that bad.
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Hey Whooter (or John C. as you call yourself today) you neglected to mention that one of those four kids committed suicide and at least one had to go to drug treatment immediately after their 18 month program.
Curious how you left out the 50% failure rate of this cherry-picked sample. Try to keep it honest, Whooter.
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Hey Whooter (or John C. as you call yourself today) you neglected to mention that one of those four kids committed suicide and at least one had to go to drug treatment immediately after their 18 month program.
Curious how you left out the 50% failure rate of this cherry-picked sample. Try to keep it honest, Whooter.
Great point! There is alot to this book that cant be covered in summary. There is nothing sugar coated about it like the above poster pointed out.
Check out the link for more info:
What It Takes to Pull Me Through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
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What It Takes to Pull Me Through (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
Following students at a school that offers intensive counseling seemed the best way to explore the welter of challenges facing today's teenagers -- from ADHD, to videogame addiction, to depression, to drug abuse. Many psychologists recommended the Academy at Swift River in western Massachusetts.
The school allowed me complete access to group therapy, classes and supervisors’ meetings. Parents let me sit in on their seminars and informal discussions with school staff. But the most important access came from the kids, who let me immerse myself in their lives, whether they were kicking back in the dorms or baring their souls in family confrontations. On breaks, I accompanied them to their neighborhoods, their old high schools and hangouts.
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I think Nigel can see what is going on here.
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Nigel is probably wondering, like I did, why none of these books or studies are offered here on fornits as reading. He is wondering why fornits leaves out information on programs and just posts scare tactics, books on brainwashing and filtered info instead of information from "both" sides so that parents can make an informed decision.
I have wondered this also. Information from a pulitzer prized author and open defender of abuse who spent over a year inside a program should be information that is relevant to making an informed decision. Why isnt information like this offered to the readers? and parents seeking information? Why is this information so theatening to everyone here?
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Yes, there were four subjects of Marcus' book. One killed himself, one went to rehab before ever going home and the other two relapsed shortly after the program.
What's also being withheld by Whooter is that Marcus actually works for the Troubled Teen Industry as a lecturer and "group facilitator" (whatever that means, as he has no credentials to do group therapy). Marcus is paid very well to promote Aspen on the lecture circuit. This is hardly an "unbaised" account with Marcus being an independent contractor for Aspen.
Marcus' book shows, even in a complete shill piece like this book clearly is, that ASR has a 25% death rate and 100% relapse rate of the kids that go there.
Aspen is ineffective AND deadly.
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John C. wrote:
[Reporter David L.] Marcus gained unfettered access to students, staff, and parents at the Academy at Swift River in the hills of western Massachusetts. The kids at Swift River had already ventured down a number of perilous paths all parents fear their own children might take – drug use, violence, theft, internet addictions, eating disorders, promiscuity.
Exactly my point. Aspen Education Group hired someone with no background in either adolescent mental health or teaching to work at their school and gave this guy unfettered access to children said to have emotional and behavior issues. Apparently there were no requirements that staff have the necessary training and experience to teach and counsel at the school. Apparently marketing and advertising the school through his book took priority over the welfare of the students.
So, yes, it is clear. Staff have too little training and too much power over children who are too vulnerable and powerless. Again, it is a recipe for physical, emotional and sexual abuse.
Auntie Em
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Sorry, it took so long.... Here it is:
DaveMarcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter
for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas
Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on
violence against women around the world. Marcus also was a Nieman Fellow at
Harvard. After a twenty-four year career in journalism, he spent a year as
a high school teacher at Deerfield Academy in Massachusetts.
About the Book
A Pulitzer Prize-winning writer untangles the mysteries of the
teenage mind as he witnesses troubled kids transformed by fourteen
months at a school that offers therapy for adolescents in
crisis.
To find answers, Marcus gained unfettered access to students, staff,
and parents at the Academy at Swift River in the hills of western
Massachusetts. The kids at Swift River had already ventured down a
number of perilous paths all parents fear their own children might
take – drug use, violence, theft, internet addictions, eating disorders,
promiscuity. Known for combining intensive academics, a wilderness
program and group therapy, the school helps troubled teenagers emotional
health.
He focuses on four remarkable kids who run the demographic gamut:
--a Southern girl whose privileges cannot save her from sinking into
drug abuse and unsafe sex;
--the self-destructive son of teachers grappling with his anger about
being adopted;
--a black kid from a tough New York neighborhood who is silenced by
consuming depression;
--a once high-achieving Florida girl "broken" by the death of her mother.
Bullshit. Unless said author went in undercover as a teen being admitted, there is no way in hell they spent "over a year inside".
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Sorry, it took so long.... Here it is:
DaveMarcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content/what-it-takes-pull-me-through-about-book)
David L. Marcus has been a foreign correspondent and education reporter
for U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, Miami Herald, and Dallas
Morning News, where he shared a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles on
violence against women around the world. Marcus also was a Nieman Fellow at
Harvard. After a twenty-four year career in journalism, he spent a year as
a high school teacher at Deerfield Academy in Massachusetts.
About the Book
A Pulitzer Prize-winning writer untangles the mysteries of the
teenage mind as he witnesses troubled kids transformed by fourteen
months at a school that offers therapy for adolescents in
crisis.
To find answers, Marcus gained unfettered access to students, staff,
and parents at the Academy at Swift River in the hills of western
Massachusetts. The kids at Swift River had already ventured down a
number of perilous paths all parents fear their own children might
take – drug use, violence, theft, internet addictions, eating disorders,
promiscuity. Known for combining intensive academics, a wilderness
program and group therapy, the school helps troubled teenagers emotional
health.
He focuses on four remarkable kids who run the demographic gamut:
--a Southern girl whose privileges cannot save her from sinking into
drug abuse and unsafe sex;
--the self-destructive son of teachers grappling with his anger about
being adopted;
--a black kid from a tough New York neighborhood who is silenced by
consuming depression;
--a once high-achieving Florida girl "broken" by the death of her mother.
Bullshit. Unless said author went in undercover as a teen being admitted, there is no way in hell they spent "over a year inside".
Looks like you are wrong... its all in the book. 14-16 months I recall.
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No, I'm not wrong. There is no comparison. In order to truly understand what it's like, he'd have to be an undercover patient. Anything less is disingenuous at best, and a complete crock of shit at worst.
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Yes, absolutely true! Maia Szalavitz has researched and written about the abuses in the troubled teen industry for years. Read her book. Notice the 20+ pages of documentation of research sources. She is an experienced, respected investigative journalist. That's why she gets hired by publications like Time Magazine.
So, Nigel. Two months at Aspen becomes four months becomes six months. Everything is proceeding according to plan.
Having fun writing those $7,000 checks? That $28K to date, and closing in on $42K by Christmas.
Soon will come the new diagnosis of a more serious mental illness--conduct disorder or Asperger's, for example--and an urgent, uber-sincere recommendation to send your boy to a boarding school. "Openings are scarce, but it just so happens we can get you in if you act right now!"
I'm sorry to put it bluntly, but you have abdicated your role as parent. There is nothing brave and honorable about what you have done to your own flesh and blood. I just can't be polite about this today. I can only hope you wife sees the light.
First of all, I don't consider what I have done to my son as either "brave or honorable". As I have mentioned before, he was in very bad shape and we felt we had tried everything and he was not responding and he was in real bad shape. We did what we felt we had to do to save our son's life. If anyone is being brave right now, it is my son, as he has been placed into a very tough situation and he is responding by working hard and analyzing what he was doing and what he wants to do in the future. It isn't fun writing those checks, but we feel we had to try something.
As for a "new diagnosis" and sending our son to a boarding school, that isn't going to happen in our case, as my son is 17 and will soon be making his own decisions. We have already started the discussion of where my son is going to finish High School (and I have told my son that he will make the decision). The therapist at the Aspen Ranch has been in on these discussions and she is also helping my son think through his decisions. Right now he says he wants to go back to his old HS, but we are also looking into some private schools in the area that are a little more alternative (arts and music oriented).
As for your statement that "I have abdicated my role as a parent"---I disagree. I am still doing the best I can to stay as connected as possible by writing nightly e-mails and visiting him as often as possible. He is listening to my advice and acting on it. We are building a much better relationship that I hope will continue to get better when he comes home.
Now, having said all that, I still really do appreciate everyone's opinions and advice. I might not always agree with what you have to say, but I am listening. Because of all of your concerns about these schools, I am looking at The Aspen Ranch very closely and asking many questions. I will continue to do so.
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As for your statement that "I have abdicated my role as a parent"---I disagree. I am still doing the best I can to stay as connected as possible by writing nightly e-mails and visiting him as often as possible. He is listening to my advice and acting on it. We are building a much better relationship that I hope will continue to get better when he comes home.
I believe that's what your intentions are and that's what you're hoping for, but you're going to be sadly mistaken. Even if, for now, your son seems *better*, he's not. He's doing and saying what he's told in order to survive. He's even feeling it. They change you, fundamentally and the only way to do that against someone's will is to break that will first. That's NEVER therapeutic. I graduated my program singing it's praises...swearing it saved my life. It did the opposite. And it tore my family apart.
Now, having said all that, I still really do appreciate everyone's opinions and advice. I might not always agree with what you have to say, but I am listening. Because of all of your concerns about these schools, I am looking at The Aspen Ranch very closely and asking many questions. I will continue to do so.
You will never be able to understand what fucking with someone's core does. Again, you seem like a decent guy and seem like you got good intentions, but........well, we all know what they say about good intentions. I wish your son peace and a lot of good luck. He's gonna need it when he gets out and begins to understand the depths of what's been done to him.
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Nigel, I apologise for the personal attacks. I disagree with your choices and fear for your son, but I was out of line.
Auntie Em
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Nigel, I apologise for the personal attacks. I disagree with your choices and fear for your son, but I was out of line.
Auntie Em
No apology necessary. I realize that you (and others on this board) are very passionate about this subject. You are taking the time to let me (and others) know how you feel. I am listening and evaluating. The reason I came to this forum was to hear "the other side" so that I could be as informed as possible, not to advocate for The Aspen Ranch. If I feel like my son has had good care and a positive outcome, I will report that. If at anytime I find out that any type of abuse has gone on, I will report that to as many people as possible. I am doing my best to stay on top of this. I have asked my son some very pointed questions (about everything) and nothing he has told me has caused me to worry (yet). I will continue to stay on top of this as much as I can. I will report back after my wife goes to the "family week."
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Nigel,
Mount Bachelor Academy, one of the Aspen schools, has been shut down. Read this account of what happened and why, and then tell us you still think sending your kid to one of their programs is the correct move. Most of us here are survivors. We've been through these programs, seen how they treat the students, know that they have little to know training, education or background in any of this stuff, and we know the end results. The same people who founded Mount Bachelor, founded the other Aspen programs. The same mindset that created the abuse at MBA is present at your sons school. I am sure the packaging and sales pitches all sound well and good, but plain and simple, these programs abuse and provide no therapy. I hope you will consider pulling your son out now rather than trust that your sons school is the exception to the abuse and neglect, the humiliations and deprivations.
Here's the article.
http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/inde ... om_sc.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/11/state_suspends_license_from_sc.html)
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Nigel, This is coming from someone who attended Aspen for 11 months and had the full expirience. I would like to start off by saying please pull your child from the program immediatly. This program does nothing but make the child sent there angrier and more unhappy. The therapists there will tell you that your child is making improvement and everything is fine. When actually your child probably miserable and nothing is going on to change them. The emotional abuse i recieved from Aspen is permanant. I was on Team 2 for most of my time there and all that I expirienced was lies. The therapists do not actually give therapy, they make up random shit that they will tell your parents is wrong with you so they can keep you there longer and make more money. The equine program is a lie. In my 11 months i never understood the "connection" between horse relationships and human relationships, its bullshit. When i finally figured out that my parents were not going to pull me from the program i faked it, which is actually pretty easy to do, due to the extreme flaws in the program. The stories that your son is telling about either the reasons the other kids were sent there or the injustices that happen there are true. There are some seriously messed up kids there that no child should be exposed to. Emotionally and mentally your child is not safe at Aspen Ranch they will have lasting emotional abuse. The staff lie and treat the kids like shit. To prove that I am not completely against programs I was sent to Second Nature Wilderness Program before Aspen and that helped me out beyond description. After that Aspen Ranch ruined me. I recently left Aspen Ranch and chances are I knew your son. I promise you the $8,000 a month is not worth it at all. If it was free it wouldnt be worth it. Aspen Ranch ruined me and I am doing my best to recover. Nigel, I implore you to withdraw your child from Aspen, it is HELL. Please listen to this and do not just look at it as another angry post because i am truly trying to help you and your child.
Sincerely,
An ex-Aspen detainee
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My wife just got back from "family workshops" at The Aspen Ranch. The first day was spent in a talk by Foster Cline (the author of "Parenting Teens with Love and Logic"). My wife came away feeling that it was time well spent. She also went to some breakout workshops that dealt with "teen issues." The next day was more of the same, and then all the kids came and had dinner with all the parents. My wife loved seeing our son, but also enjoyed getting to know some of the other families. The next day was spent meeting my son's teachers and therapist. My wife thought that this was a very productive day and that my son came away having a better picture of how he was doing in his classes and also what he needed to do to improve. They then had an afternoon off and ended by going out to dinner in Bicknell.
All in all, my wife is very glad she went, but it was an emotional week for her. My son desperately wants to come home. He really feels that he has turned the corner and that he is ready to come home. I talked to him over the phone and told him that I am proud of what he has accomplished and that I am evaluating everything and I want to make sure that when I do bring him home that it is the right time and that he is set up to succeed. He seemed OK with all of this but he wanted to make sure that I was "actively" thinking about it (I assured him I was).
My wife had plenty of free time with my son and she gave him plenty of opportunity (by asking questions) to let her know how things are at the ranch. His main complaints are that it is too structured for him and that there is no time that he can be alone. He wants to be back in his room (and home) where he can make his own decisions and have some privacy.
I go out for a 3 day visit over Thanksgiving (my son will be able to leave the ranch for the whole day), so I will have plenty of time to evaluate how he is doing. I will report back.
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Report back only after you've inserted a .38 into your brain.
Thanks.
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Report back only after you've inserted a .38 into your brain.
Thanks.
The above post was obviously written by "The Who." He is trying to stir up some controversy by making other Fornits posters look like complete morons so that people don't take them seriously. "The Who"---you are so easy to spot it is ridiculous. Stop making idiotic statements like the one above and get off this thread. I am here to let others know how my son is doing and to ask for advice, not to have to respond to you---"The Who."
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Report back only after you've inserted a .38 into your brain.
Thanks.
The above post was obviously written by "The Who." He is trying to stir up some controversy by making other Fornits posters look like complete morons so that people don't take them seriously. "The Who"---you are so easy to spot it is ridiculous. Stop making idiotic statements like the one above and get off this thread. I am here to let others know how my son is doing and to ask for advice, not to have to respond to you---"The Who."
Ha, Ha, Ha. In a last desperate attempt to salvage the persona of the sock puppet and to give it credibility TheWho insults himself.
Sorry, buddy, but I think it's safe to say we all already know you and NIGEL are one in the same and you've been flailing badly as Whooter, so why not make NIGEL the front man now? EPIC FAIL.
There's no getting around the fact that Aspen facilities are being shut down left and right (2 in a month in just one state) and you can't try to give NIGEL credibility so he can say "But this one's different!" EPIC, EPIC, FAIL.
The jig is up on this sock puppet.
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Report back only after you've inserted a .38 into your brain.
Thanks.
The above post was obviously written by "The Who." He is trying to stir up some controversy by making other Fornits posters look like complete morons so that people don't take them seriously. "The Who"---you are so easy to spot it is ridiculous. Stop making idiotic statements like the one above and get off this thread. I am here to let others know how my son is doing and to ask for advice, not to have to respond to you---"The Who."
Ha, Ha, Ha. In a last desperate attempt to salvage the persona of the sock puppet and to give it credibility TheWho insults himself.
Sorry, buddy, but I think it's safe to say we all already know you and NIGEL are one in the same and you've been flailing badly as Whooter, so why not make NIGEL the front man now? EPIC FAIL.
There's no getting around the fact that Aspen facilities are being shut down left and right (2 in a month in just one state) and you can't try to give NIGEL credibility so he can say "But this one's different!" EPIC, EPIC, FAIL.
The jig is up on this sock puppet.
Ha,Ha,Ha. I guess my lame attempt at sarcasm was a little above you.
I have read about the Aspen programs being shut down and I am asking questions. I am not claiming that The Aspen Ranch is "different than the rest", I am only reporting about how my son is doing and asking for advice so that I can make as informed decision as possible about my son's future. I will continue to report back, but I don't plan on putting a 38 to my head anytime soon (sorry).
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You have no right to make any decisions about your son's future at all, as you are clearly unfit to do so.
Get the fuck out of here.
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There is some irony and humor in all of this. If we flipped this over and this were a survivor telling their story of abuse and I came on here and said they were lying and to get the fuck off this forum people would be shocked and looking to have me banned.... Ha,Ha,Ha It is interesting looking at it from this perspective!
Unless I were here to point this out no one would be able to see this double standard. The unconscious ability to turn a blind eye to what is going on continues to amaze me.
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My wife had plenty of free time with my son and she gave him plenty of opportunity (by asking questions) to let her know how things are at the ranch. His main complaints are that it is too structured for him and that there is no time that he can be alone. He wants to be back in his room (and home) where he can make his own decisions and have some privacy.
Nigel, you and your wife may feel that your son had opportunity to really tell you what was going on, but that simply isn't the case. After you or your wife leaves Aspen Ranch and goes back home, your son still needs to survive, psychologically speaking, at the program. Do you think he is going to actually volunteer something that might, however seemingly benign the context, get back to his therapist as "evidence" of his not "working his program" appropriately? Believe me, what you might regard as raising a valid question, is not necessarily how Aspen Ranch might see it.
Moreover, the lack of unstructured alone-time should give anyone familiar with indoctrination and brainwashing methods ample cause for pause. Doesn't this raise any red flags for you?
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My wife was off campus, "unstructured time," for a total of 4 hours. I know this doesn't sound like a lot of time, but I think it is probably enough time to get a good read on how he is doing. When I visit in 2 weeks, we will have the whole day. I want you all to know that I am glad I came to this forum as it has made me analyze everything. Part of me wants to bring my son home right now, but I have to be very careful in doing so.
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There is some irony and humor in all of this. If we flipped this over and this were a survivor telling their story of abuse and I came on here and said they were lying and to get the fuck off this forum people would be shocked and looking to have me banned.... Ha,Ha,Ha It is interesting looking at it from this perspective!
Unless I were here to point this out no one would be able to see this double standard. The unconscious ability to turn a blind eye to what is going on continues to amaze me.
It amazes me, too. I don't understand how you're so easily able to overlook a child rape and Aspen's failure to report this child reape that happened at their facility because they have no safety systems in place. How you can miss this amazes me every time. So we agree on that!
And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Whooter has been calling survivors "liars" here for years and laughing at their horror stories of bindings, beatings, rapes and deprivation and nobody kicked him off the forum.
It's just funny to watch him wiggle, wiggle, squirm, squirm when he feels the sting!! sting!! of being exposed as a child abuse supoorting liar every time his precious (Aspen) gets knocked for abusing kids, or even killing them. He's like Golem roaming Middle Earth enslaved to his precious (Aspen) and forced to do their evil bidding (supporting the rape and killing of children in Aspen's programs). He's a very, very sick person.
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My wife had plenty of free time with my son and she gave him plenty of opportunity (by asking questions) to let her know how things are at the ranch. His main complaints are that it is too structured for him and that there is no time that he can be alone. He wants to be back in his room (and home) where he can make his own decisions and have some privacy.
Nigel, you and your wife may feel that your son had opportunity to really tell you what was going on, but that simply isn't the case. After you or your wife leaves Aspen Ranch and goes back home, your son still needs to survive, psychologically speaking, at the program. Do you think he is going to actually volunteer something that might, however seemingly benign the context, get back to his therapist as "evidence" of his not "working his program" appropriately? Believe me, what you might regard as raising a valid question, is not necessarily how Aspen Ranch might see it.
Moreover, the lack of unstructured alone-time should give anyone familiar with indoctrination and brainwashing methods ample cause for pause. Doesn't this raise any red flags for you?
Not sure if you have kids or not, Ursus, but a mother would know if there was something wrong with her son. 4 hours off campus "one on one" is plenty of time to unwind and talk. It sounds like Nigels son is benefitting from his stay so far.
Thanks for the updates Nigel.
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There is some irony and humor in all of this. If we flipped this over and this were a survivor telling their story of abuse and I came on here and said they were lying and to get the fuck off this forum people would be shocked and looking to have me banned.... Ha,Ha,Ha It is interesting looking at it from this perspective!
Unless I were here to point this out no one would be able to see this double standard. The unconscious ability to turn a blind eye to what is going on continues to amaze me.
It amazes me, too. I don't understand how you're so easily able to overlook a child rape and Aspen's failure to report this child reape that happened at their facility because they have no safety systems in place. How you can miss this amazes me every time. So we agree on that!
And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Whooter has been calling survivors "liars" here for years and laughing at their horror stories of bindings, beatings, rapes and deprivation and nobody kicked him off the forum.
It's just funny to watch him wiggle, wiggle, squirm, squirm when he feels the sting!! sting!! of being exposed as a child abuse supoorting liar every time his precious (Aspen) gets knocked for abusing kids, or even killing them. He's like Golem roaming Middle Earth enslaved to his precious (Aspen) and forced to do their evil bidding (supporting the rape and killing of children in Aspen's programs). He's a very, very sick person.
Oh I hear ya. And this stupid game with Whooter playing both himself and NIGEL is tedious. We all know already they're the same person, but still he keeps at it. I guess whatever keeps him busy is fine, but nobody here buys it at all so it's really just a waste of time. I'm sure he'd like to talk about anything other than the recently proven allegations of rape and abuse at Aspen.
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My wife had plenty of free time with my son and she gave him plenty of opportunity (by asking questions) to let her know how things are at the ranch. His main complaints are that it is too structured for him and that there is no time that he can be alone. He wants to be back in his room (and home) where he can make his own decisions and have some privacy.
Nigel, you and your wife may feel that your son had opportunity to really tell you what was going on, but that simply isn't the case. After you or your wife leaves Aspen Ranch and goes back home, your son still needs to survive, psychologically speaking, at the program. Do you think he is going to actually volunteer something that might, however seemingly benign the context, get back to his therapist as "evidence" of his not "working his program" appropriately? Believe me, what you might regard as raising a valid question, is not necessarily how Aspen Ranch might see it.
Moreover, the lack of unstructured alone-time should give anyone familiar with indoctrination and brainwashing methods ample cause for pause. Doesn't this raise any red flags for you?
Not sure if you have kids or not, Ursus, but a mother would know if there was something wrong with her son. 4 hours off campus "one on one" is plenty of time to unwind and talk. It sounds like Nigels son is benefitting from his stay so far.
Thanks for the updates Nigel.
Mmmm... right. You tell that to Cathy Sutton, Whooter. I'm sure she'll feel real nice about her "mother's intuitions" having failed her ... given that her daughter Michelle (http://http://michellesuttonmemorial.homestead.com/) is ... yes, quite dead, and there really is no way of now reversing that tragic event.
The fact is, often there is absolutely no way to prepare a parent for just how much obfuscation is layered over the information they receive. Lots of folk get schnookered in, especially the well-meaning, honest, hard-working types who treat everyone else according to the Golden Rule... There is simply nothing in their experience which would help them understand or believe the snake pit they've inadvertently wandered into... until it's too late.
Hopefully, it won't come to that.
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Mmmm... right. You tell that to Cathy Sutton, Whooter. I'm sure she'll feel real nice about her "mother's intuitions" having failed her ... given that her daughter Michelle (http://http://michellesuttonmemorial.homestead.com/) is ... yes, quite dead, and there really is no way of now reversing that tragic event.
Ursus, The mother and Micelle never had the contact that Nigel son had with his mother. Nigels mother and her son had time off campus together and if her son were hurting then she would probably know it. I know that I would as a parent. Its a parent child connection that is hard to explain. If Nigels mother feels comfortable then her son is probably in good hands.
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You would know? Wow, coming from a guy who either didn't know or approved of his daughter giving lapdances to staff members or simulationg felatio on them as part of her 'therapy,' this is pretty unbelievable. If you didn't know this, shame on you. If you did, shame on you.
Explain to the rest of us how a little being forced to simulate sucking her counselors cock is therapeutic. Just explain that and I'm sure people will relax on you a bit. Make us understand how this is helpful to a child.
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Mmmm... right. You tell that to Cathy Sutton, Whooter. I'm sure she'll feel real nice about her "mother's intuitions" having failed her ... given that her daughter Michelle (http://http://michellesuttonmemorial.homestead.com/) is ... yes, quite dead, and there really is no way of now reversing that tragic event.
Ursus, The mother and Micelle never had the contact that Nigel son had with his mother. Nigels mother and her son had time off campus together and if her son were hurting then she would probably know it. I know that I would as a parent. Its a parent child connection that is hard to explain. If Nigels mother feels comfortable then her son is probably in good hands.
A mother /son relationship is special. If there were a problem the mother would know.
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Nigel
I was just wondering and would appreciate it if you would answer the following questions so that it is easier to understand your son's situation and what he is being treated for. Before you sent him away
1. Before you sent him away was he given a diagnosis found in the DSM for any condition he might have had? If he was what was the diagnosis and what was the treatment? What was the view of the professional who made the DSM diagnosis of your decision to send your son to Aspen? Did he put that view in writing?
2. Was he evaluated by a child study team at his school? What were their findings? How were their recommendations implemented?
3. How much do you pay at Aspen? What is the extent of your son's interaction with LICENSED professionals at Aspen?
4. Did a licensed professional at aspen come up with a diagnosis and treatment plan for your son? What is the diagnosis? Is it in writing? Did you sign a contract with aspen that specifically said that they were not providing treatment for the condition that was diagnosed?
I ask these questions because you raise important issues and it is much easier to understand and discuss the issue in the context of specifics rather then generalities.
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Nigel
I was just wondering and would appreciate it if you would answer the following questions so that it is easier to understand your son's situation and what he is being treated for. Before you sent him away
1. Before you sent him away was he given a diagnosis found in the DSM for any condition he might have had? If he was what was the diagnosis and what was the treatment? What was the view of the professional who made the DSM diagnosis of your decision to send your son to Aspen? Did he put that view in writing?
2. Was he evaluated by a child study team at his school? What were their findings? How were their recommendations implemented?
3. How much do you pay at Aspen? What is the extent of your son's interaction with LICENSED professionals at Aspen?
4. Did a licensed professional at aspen come up with a diagnosis and treatment plan for your son? What is the diagnosis? Is it in writing? Did you sign a contract with aspen that specifically said that they were not providing treatment for the condition that was diagnosed?
I ask these questions because you raise important issues and it is much easier to understand and discuss the issue in the context of specifics rather then generalities.
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I will answer some of your questions, but out of respect for my son, not all. When he was home, we had him seeing both a psychiatrist and psychologist. The psychiatrist diagnosed him (depression) and started him on meds. He went through two different types and they seemed to be making a difference. During the last 6 months at our house my son stopped taking his meds and proceeded to self medicate. When he arrived at The Aspen Ranch he was assigned a therapist and a psychiatrist (both are licensed). My son has been adament about not restarting meds and we are all OK with that. He mostly works with his therapist now and he does have things he works on with her. We are pretty happy about the help he has received, but we still have concerns about whether or not he needs to stay there (he doesn't like it and feels he is ready to come home). My wife just spent 4 days at The Ranch and she is leaning on the side of bringing him home pretty soon. We are currently talking about this and also asking for advice from his old psychologist (who my son respects). I do believe that my son has "seen the light" (his words), but whether or not he will slip back into his old ways when he does come home is our biggest concern. I will see him in two weeks and hopefully get a better feel for how he is doing.
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sorry NIgel. It doesn't work that way. You can answer each of the questions I asked without disclosing anything about your son. You are anonymous and he is too. And based on your response I would add the following questions.
1.Does that mean he is being treated at aspen for depression?
2. Has the psychiatrist or psychologist endorsed a treatment plan for your son that does not include meds? Did they sign it/ 3. How often does your son see the licensed psychologist and psychiatrist for individual sessions? Have they conferred with the prior treaters?
Your response to me has all of the lingo that aspen loves to use and none of the specifics. Please answer my specific questions. Otherwise the only reasonable conclusion is that you are a shill for aspen and what you are doing here is dishonest.
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sorry NIgel. It doesn't work that way. You can answer each of the questions I asked without disclosing anything about your son. You are anonymous and he is too. And based on your response I would add the following questions.
1.Does that mean he is being treated at aspen for depression?
2. Has the psychiatrist or psychologist endorsed a treatment plan for your son that does not include meds? Did they sign it/ 3. How often does your son see the licensed psychologist and psychiatrist for individual sessions? Have they conferred with the prior treaters?
Your response to me has all of the lingo that aspen loves to use and none of the specifics. Please answer my specific questions. Otherwise the only reasonable conclusion is that you are a shill for aspen and what you are doing here is dishonest.
Dear "Just Wondering",
Please don't take offense, but I could care less if you think I am a "shill for aspen." There are those on this forum that believe that I am "The Who" , or "The Who's" sockpupet. There are also those that know I am really just a parent that had to make the toughest decision of his life and am trying to now do my best to make sure that the next decision I make is the right one. I am here to get help in my decisions (present and future) concerning my son. That being said, yes they (and we) are working on his depression. Yes they have come up with a treatment plan that doesn't include meds. So far he has been handling things well and he seems to better understand how he re-acts to stress and how to better manage his emotions when he faces rough times. He meets with his therapist for two sessions (1 hour each) a week and his therapist leads group therapy 4 times a week. Is it ideal, no. Does he appear to be improving, yes. Both of my son's prior doctors have conferred with the therapists at The Aspen Ranch and I truly believe that his current therapists want the best for my son. Whether or not their methods are effective is open to debate (and yes, my wife and I are trying our hardest to stay on top of this). We love our son and want the best for him. You can question our decision to send him to the Aspen Ranch (and that is why I am on this website), but I am getting a little tired of trying to convince people that I actually did have my son escorted to The Aspen Ranch and am now living with this decision. I am hurting (my wife even more than me) and we are doing the best we can to stay focused and together as a family.
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Why didn't you just send him to the church of Scientology. ? Or the army? Or maybe even nambla?
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Absolutely bizarre. Your whining is wretched. You have stated very clearly that your child suffered from depression as diagnosed by mental health professionals, so your response was to send the child to a tough-love program rooted in fraud and composing one of many aspects of an organization that has demonstrated a tendency to harm children. Grow up, grow a spine, and face the fact that you fucked over your child. This Nigel-watch is slightly more ridiculous than updates on an exorcism.
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Absolutely bizarre. Your whining is wretched. You have stated very clearly that your child suffered from depression as diagnosed by mental health professionals, so your response was to send the child to a tough-love program rooted in fraud and composing one of many aspects of an organization that has demonstrated a tendency to harm children. Grow up, grow a spine, and face the fact that you fucked over your child. This Nigel-watch is slightly more ridiculous than updates on an exorcism.
Why not be happy for the child and the family. Why are you always focused on yourself? First you say all programs over medicate and now you are questioning why Aspen Ranch isnt medicationg this child.
You are not interested in learning the truth or understanding how this place works at all. Its obvious you are not interested in the kids who go there. Are you not happy that the therapists (2 of them licensed) are speaking to the childs therapist back home? Are you not happy that he is moving forward? Are you happy that the therapists have a plan for him?
Do stories of programs helping kids take you out of your comfort zone? You can go read some horror survivor stories later to get you head back on straight but try to think outside yourself for once to see what really happens inside Aspen Ranch today. Open your mind a little and let some truth in. It will only hurt for a little while I promise.
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Do stories of programs helping kids take you out of your comfort zone?
Nope. Especially this one, which happens to be phony. A yarn. A fable. Why should I be compelled by your sock puppet?
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First you say all programs over medicate
Where was this said? I don't see it.
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Sorry NIgel-What you have done here is clever and creepy. You have provided enough information to make yourself into a generic parent as the industry would like them to be seen. You have avoided providing any information that would allow anyone to begin with your son's actual problem as seen by professionals and then look at how aspen is handling that problem. Your use of industry expressions like "self medicate" is a give away and your refusal to answer any question that make you, your wife and your son into real individuals is the heart of the matter.
I am happy to respond in a serious way if you respond to the specific questions I asked in a specific way. You don't have to care whether I do or do not but if you don't you should not complain about being called a shill.
This is a forum consisting mostly of kids and adults that have been hurt by the tough love industry. Many have been hurt badly and had their families ripped apart and despite the limitations imposed by this anonymous format and the profanity and nonsense and self indulgent crap that is so easy to post it also consists of heart felt stories filled with details and angst written by real people trying to make their ways through iife, often without their families that they lost in their adolescent years.
Using this forum as a shill for Aspen or a similar business by feigning sincerity and pretending to be what you are not is creepy. And so I am clear I would be happy to discuss all of these issues here including the bona fides of the Aspen treatment model with the same degree of anonymity that you seek as long as you will provide specific anonymous details about your son. The one you might start with is what the contract you signed with Aspen says about your son's diagnosis of a mood disorder-depression- and their treatment of it? Did they write down that he had a mood disorder and that they were treating it without medications?
I believe there is a reason you won't do it and it has nothing to do with privacy and if you do not respond in a serious way I will explain it for you in the posts to come.
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Sorry NIgel-What you have done here is clever and creepy. You have provided enough information to make yourself into a generic parent as the industry would like them to be seen. You have avoided providing any information that would allow anyone to begin with your son's actual problem as seen by professionals and then look at how aspen is handling that problem. Your use of industry expressions like "self medicate" is a give away and your refusal to answer any question that make you, your wife and your son into real individuals is the heart of the matter.
I am happy to respond in a serious way if you respond to the specific questions I asked in a specific way. You don't have to care whether I do or do not but if you don't you should not complain about being called a shill.
This is a forum consisting mostly of kids and adults that have been hurt by the tough love industry. Many have been hurt badly and had their families ripped apart and despite the limitations imposed by this anonymous format and the profanity and nonsense and self indulgent crap that is so easy to post it also consists of heart felt stories filled with details and angst written by real people trying to make their ways through iife, often without their families that they lost in their adolescent years.
Using this forum as a shill for Aspen or a similar business by feigning sincerity and pretending to be what you are not is creepy. And so I am clear I would be happy to discuss all of these issues here including the bona fides of the Aspen treatment model with the same degree of anonymity that you seek as long as you will provide specific anonymous details about your son. The one you might start with is what the contract you signed with Aspen says about your son's diagnosis of a mood disorder-depression- and their treatment of it? Did they write down that he had a mood disorder and that they were treating it without medications?
I believe there is a reason you won't do it and it has nothing to do with privacy and if you do not respond in a serious way I will explain it for you in the posts to come.
When my daughter was enrolled we had no such clause in the contract stating whether or not my child would be medicated. The reason is because there is no way to know how each child is going to respond. A hospital doesnt determine ahead of time what medication you will be taking. It is determined by need and the outcome of the procedures, body weight at the time and other factors. Each child is different, some are taken off medication completely and others are placed on new medications. Unless there were religious beliefs which required that your son or daughter not be medicated this is the only reason I can see for having a clause like that in there.
Secondly you are trying to bully Nigel into giving the answers you want by threatening to label him as a "shill" if he doesnt. What if we were to ask a survivor about the happy times and positive effects the program had on them and they refused to respond. Could we call the survivor a liar? Maybe label them with an unpleasant title? Disregard their story as an attempt to blame the program on their failed life and unhappiness? Or should we just allow each person to tell the details they way they are most comfortable with?
Nigel seemed sincere enough when he stated he wanted to keep some information private to protect his son and possibly identity. He responded to your post and you should respect his right to tell his story in his own way the same as you would anyone else here. Would you like it if we threatened you if you didn’t answer specific questions? Is what you are doing right?
Why dont you try to rephrase your question to Nigel if you would like more detail or are interested in a different aspect.....
also "self medicate" is not an industry term (you need to get out more). This is a common expression used throughout the therapeutic community and has been for decades.
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Sorry guest- you are right - self medicated is a typical term used by the "therapeutic community" along with a lot of other terms which it chooses not to define like "therapeutic community." It is not a term used by kids that smoke grass or take pills to get high and it is not a term used by their parents either.
What every legitimate medical or "therapeutic" institution that provides services does is begin with a diagnosis- ususally a differential diagnosis- comes to a conclusion about the actual diagnosis and then provides traetment for that diagnosis. That treatment is then put in writing as applicable to the diagnosis and "informed consent" warnings are given. My initial question to NIgel simply asks him to indicate what the Aspen diagnosis for his son was and whether the contract he signed indicated that his son was being treated for the diagnosis that the professionals concluded his son had. It is an easy question.
But this is easy. NIgel can answer my questions or I will go away. He can decide. I played this same game with either a different or the same industry shill several years ago when he was trying to distinguish between good and bad facilities that purport to treat kids and as soon as we got to a list of specifics he lost interest and retreated to generalities. Either way is ok with me. I am sure there are worse things to be in life then being an industry shill but going on a Board like this one to do it just seems particularly creepy to me.
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Sorry guest- you are right - self medicated is a typical term used by the "therapeutic community" along with a lot of other terms which it chooses not to define like "therapeutic community." It is not a term used by kids that smoke grass or take pills to get high and it is not a term used by their parents either.
Its okay, no need to appologize to me. I agree they are not terms used by kids or typical parents. I never used them myself until I was a parent and had a child in therapy. But this was way before my child entered a program.
What every legitimate medical or "therapeutic" institution that provides services does is begin with a diagnosis- ususally a differential diagnosis- comes to a conclusion about the actual diagnosis and then provides traetment for that diagnosis. That treatment is then put in writing as applicable to the diagnosis and "informed consent" warnings are given. My initial question to NIgel simply asks him to indicate what the Aspen diagnosis for his son was and whether the contract he signed indicated that his son was being treated for the diagnosis that the professionals concluded his son had. It is an easy question.
That is a nicer way to put it. I think it would be easy enough to answer.
But this is easy. NIgel can answer my questions or I will go away. He can decide.
That is what is nice about an open forum. I have had people ask me personal questions and some I refused to answer. Some people went away, others stuck around and called me names and hung signs and labels on me. It depends on the type of person you are. I ask people questions off and on here and if they dont want to answer me I dont resort to name calling or categorizing them with derogatory terms. But everyone is different.
I played this same game with either a different or the same industry shill several years ago when he was trying to distinguish between good and bad facilities that purport to treat kids and as soon as we got to a list of specifics he lost interest and retreated to generalities.
A little advice may be not to approach it like a game. This isn’t a game to Nigel as it wasn’t for me. If it is games you want go off to another forum which excepts that. Most of us here are interested in the industry and take the current events very seriously. We have either had kids in programs are deciding or are kids who attended programs. None of us approach it lightly.
Either way is ok with me. I am sure there are worse things to be in life then being an industry shill but going on a Board like this one to do it just seems particularly creepy to me.
Do you see that you prejudge people? call them names? Then you expect them to be open and honest with you? I can see why you were not successful with the previous parent you spoke of.
Try to loosen up, share a little about yourself to Nigel and have a little give and take. It may help you to attain your goals.
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sorry nigel/guest
the questions I asked were reasonable and had nothing to do with privacy. The forum is anonyomous- remember.
I will return when you answer the specific questions I asked. I will check periodically. Bye
Until then you can keep earning your living as a shill and I will keep doing what I do.
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sorry nigel/guest
the questions I asked were reasonable and had nothing to do with privacy. The forum is anonyomous- remember.
I will return when you answer the specific questions I asked. I will check periodically. Bye
Until then you can keep earning your living as a shill and I will keep doing what I do.
Ha,Ha,Ha I think it is a safe guess that our friend does not make a living in public relations. Take care "Just wondering"... interesting characters that come and go here.
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Please answer my specific questions. Otherwise the only reasonable conclusion is that you are a shill for aspen and what you are doing here is dishonest.
Look. I hate to take the "other side" but that plain doesn't make sense. His writing style doesn't match Whooter's anyway, and his is pretty distinctive.
There are good reasons why he might not want to mention details of his kid's stay, among which is the possibility that the program might identify him by those details.
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Please answer my specific questions. Otherwise the only reasonable conclusion is that you are a shill for aspen and what you are doing here is dishonest.
Look. I hate to take the "other side" but that plain doesn't make sense. His writing style doesn't match Whooter's anyway, and his is pretty distinctive.
There are good reasons why he might not want to mention details of his kid's stay, among which is the possibility that the program might identify him by those details.
The possibility of Aspen Ranch identifying Nigel's son is not necessarily a bad thing, though I do admit it is a gamble.
On the plus side, it might make program personnel behave more responsibly and to be a little less coercive in their treatment of him. This was usually the case at Hyde when dealing with very involved and proactive families. Knowing that the spotlight is on ya can sometimes cause people to clean up their act somewhat.
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Nigel, do you know if Aspen Ranch is using an "emotional growth curriculum" called Lifesteps?
They were considering using it in 1998 (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29113&p=350266#p350266). At the time, other Aspen programs which were already using it were Mount Bachelor Academy, Copper Canyon Academy, NorthStar, and Academy at Swift River.
It appears that, as of 2007 (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=20619), select students at Aspen Ranch may be being transported to Copper Canyon for these workshops.
As you must know, Mount Bachelor Academy is now no longer (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29128), in large part quite probably due to their reluctance to reveal the specific contents of these seminars / workshops. There is certainly a huge economic factor in all this, to be sure, but ... quite frankly, I don't think Aspen Ed nor its corporate parent CRC Health want anything to do with any state or federal agency telling them how to run their programs. This has always been the mantra, so to speak, of the "parent-choice" industry.
Amongst 23 other charges, the Oregon DHS determined (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29131#p350409) that:
7. MBA violated OAR 413-215-0076(3) regarding behavior management in that MBA required students to engage in an "emotional growth" curriculum, included but not limited to the Lifesteps program that was punitive, humiliating, degrading, and traumatizing. The "emotional growth" curriculum included, but was not limited to, sexualized role play in front of staff and peers, requiring students to say derogatory phrases about themselves in front of staff and peers, requiring students to reenact past physical abuse in front of staff and peers, permitting staff to engage in the usage of derogatory names, phrases and ridicule of students, and deprivation of sleep.[/list]
Doesn't all this stuff raise any red flags for you yet?
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Nigel, do you know if Aspen Ranch is using an "emotional growth curriculum" called Lifesteps?
They were considering using it in 1998 (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=29113&p=350266#p350266). At the time, other Aspen programs which were already using it were Mount Bachelor Academy, Copper Canyon Academy, NorthStar, and Academy at Swift River.
It appears that, as of 2007 (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=20619), select students at Aspen Ranch may be being transported to Copper Canyon for these workshops.
As you must know, Mount Bachelor Academy is now no longer (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29128), in large part quite probably due to their reluctance to reveal the specific contents of these seminars / workshops. There is certainly a huge economic factor in all this, to be sure, but ... quite frankly, I don't think Aspen Ed nor its corporate parent CRC Health want anything to do with any state or federal agency telling them how to run their programs. This has always been the mantra, so to speak, of the "parent-choice" industry.
Amongst 23 other charges, the Oregon DHS determined (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29131#p350409) that:
7. MBA violated OAR 413-215-0076(3) regarding behavior management in that MBA required students to engage in an "emotional growth" curriculum, included but not limited to the Lifesteps program that was punitive, humiliating, degrading, and traumatizing. The "emotional growth" curriculum included, but was not limited to, sexualized role play in front of staff and peers, requiring students to say derogatory phrases about themselves in front of staff and peers, requiring students to reenact past physical abuse in front of staff and peers, permitting staff to engage in the usage of derogatory names, phrases and ridicule of students, and deprivation of sleep.[/list]
Doesn't all this stuff raise any red flags for you yet?
Yes I am aware of what has happened at MBA and yes it has raised some serious red flags. I have asked about it and my son's therapist has stated that they don't use any sort of therapy that even remotely resembles what was reported at MBA. I have looked over all the info in the parent handbook I have and nothing comes up that suggests they might. I have asked my son many questions about what goes on in his group therapy sessions and nothing he has said has made me feel concerned. That being said, I am keeping as close an eye on everything that I can and I am going to continue to ask questions.
What is consumng most of my time and thoughts right now is my son's deep desire to come home. I am sure that any parent can understand the pain my wife and I are experiencing. We want the best for him and are seeing some improvement in many different areas, but it is very hard to leave him there. As I have stated before, we are seeking advice from many different people and we are going to make a decision fairly soon on whether or not we are going to bring him home or put our trust in The Aspen Ranch and leave him there for a while longer. I go out over Thanksgiving and get to spend some decent time with him. I hope to have a better handle on the whole situation following my visit.
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What boilerplate bullshit.
ITT Aspen troll (what, you think they have just one?) tries to coax Aspen parents against doing the right thing and pulling their kids.
If by some horrible bit of miscegnation you have been allowed to breed, the best I can hope for is that he slams a knife into the side of your neck and pushes outwards, cutting your throat out backwards Al-Qaeda style.
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What boilerplate bullshit.
ITT Aspen troll (what, you think they have just one?) tries to coax Aspen parents against doing the right thing and pulling their kids.
If by some horrible bit of miscegnation you have been allowed to breed, the best I can hope for is that he slams a knife into the side of your neck and pushes outwards, cutting your throat out backwards Al-Qaeda style.
Perfect timing, an ^^ Example of a kid^^ who was able to manipulate his parents and was pulled out too early and now has no goals in life and wanders aimlessly blaming (and letting loose huge amounts of anger towards) his parents and programs for his failed life, on forums like fornits.
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No, we don't want to hear it, Nigel. Shut the fuck up.
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No, we don't want to hear it, Nigel. Shut the fuck up.
Hey "Guest", there is a simple solution to that-----don't read it. If you "don't want to hear it" then please explain why you would continue to read.
I started this topic so that I could get advice. I am still posting on here for the same reasons. I am here for my own selfish needs, not to entertain anyone. I am very thankful for this forum as it has made me aware of what has gone on in the past and what is currently going on at some schools (MBA). Because of advice I have been given and things I have read I have asked questions of the Aspen Ranch and am doing my best to make sure that my son isn't abused in any way.
So "Guest"---here is a warning (just so you know), I will continue to post here as long as I feel it is helping me. I thought I should let you know just in case you "don't want to hear it."
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Absolute nonsense. Giving a child to an organization rooted in abuse is not a means of ensuring that they are not abused. Not sending a young person to Aspen would be a much more effective means of making sure that they are not abused. Your statement is devoid of logic.
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Absolute nonsense. Giving a child to an organization rooted in abuse is not a means of ensuring that they are not abused. Not sending a young person to Aspen would be a much more effective means of making sure that they are not abused. Your statement is devoid of logic.
I agree 100% with your first sentance. There is always a possibility of abuse, and given the fact that there has been abuse in the past in some TBS's run by The Aspen Group, the possibility of abuse exists. I am doing my part at The Aspen Ranch to make sure that doesn't happen. I am visiting as often as possible. I am asking questions of my son and his therapists. I am meeting his teachers and talking to other kids at The Ranch. Does any of this ensure he is not abused, absolutely not, but I think I am doing the best I can to make sure he is in a safe environment getting the help he needs.
As for your second sentence, as I have stated before, I believe that if I hadn't sent my son to The Aspen Ranch, he would either be living on the streets or dead by now. I couldn't stand by and not do anything. My wife and I tried everything we could think of and nothing was reaching him. At least now he is alive and seems to be doing much better. I am hoping and praying that he continues to improve and that he will be home with us in the near future. He is an extremely bright young man with a world of potential and we did what we felt was needed.
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Absolute nonsense. Giving a child to an organization rooted in abuse is not a means of ensuring that they are not abused. Not sending a young person to Aspen would be a much more effective means of making sure that they are not abused. Your statement is devoid of logic.
Hospitals should be avoided also because of the high incidence of death that occurs there. More people die in hospitals than anywhere else. Just pure logic, but people keep sending their loved ones there anyway, go figure.
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What you do or don't believe is God damned meaningless.
FYI: Your son can use what you post here against you in a court of law.
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What you do or don't believe is God damned meaningless.
FYI: Your son can use what you post here against you in a court of law.
I know you are not asking for, nor do you want my pity-----but I really feel sorry for you (I mean this with all sincerity).
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Nice try, wannabe-Sophist. Everybody dies, regardless of whether or not they enter a hospital. Avoiding hospitals will not result in avoiding death. Not everybody is abused, but many people are abused in Aspen. One doing everything to ensure that one's child is not abused would logically avoid placing their child in a situation where abuse is known to occur as a result of placement in that situation. Placing a child in a situation where abuse is known to occur as a result of being in that situation increases the likelihood of the child being abused. You're still lazy, and you haven't gotten any smarter.
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Nice try, wannabe-Sophist. Everybody dies, regardless of whether or not they enter a hospital. Avoiding hospitals will not result in avoiding death. Not everybody is abused, but many people are abused in Aspen. One doing everything to ensure that one's child is not abused would logically avoid placing their child in a situation where abuse is known to occur as a result of placement in that situation. Placing a child in a situation where abuse is known to occur as a result of being in that situation increases the likelihood of the child being abused. You're still lazy, and you haven't gotten any smarter.
Name some places where abuse doesnt occur then. Teachers have been known to rape students in public school so that is out... church isnt a safe place... letting the kid hang with the local drug dealer isnt safe either...Hmmmm... So what we do know is that these programs have been highly successful in helping at-risk teens get back on track..... there are alot of kids in these places which raises the risk of abuse so that is a concern....... but doing nothing for a child who is suffering and may end up dead just isnt an option for most parents.... hmmm where do we go?
This laziness thing you have seems to be a big issue with you. Has motivation been a recurring problem for you?
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More lazy nonsense. Kids can be abused anywhere. The nature of Aspen programs is such that the likelihood of a young person being abused is increased by attending Aspen as opposed to not attending Aspen. This increase is greater than than the increase in the likelihood of a young person being abused by attending church, or public school as opposed to not attending church or public school. Abuse is a hallmark of Aspen, it is not a hallmark of public school nor of church. No one suggested that parents ensure that their offspring are hanging around the local drug dealer. It's impossible to tell what is meant by your statement regarding getting back on track. We most certainly do not know that these programs have been highly successful in getting teens back on track, since we don't know what "back on track" refers to in this instance. The response to the suffering of a child by parents would be determined based on what it is from which the child is suffering.
Motivation to point out your laziness has not posed any problem for me.
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It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Aspen had a guy like this (http://http://alpenhornnews.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=1&twindow=&mad=&sdetail=388&wpage=1&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=2750&hn=alpenhornnews&he=.com) lurking around the facilites.
You know what the CEDU supporters were saying all along during this time? "CEDU is completely safe! These allegations are nonsense!" But, alas, there was a serial child rapist and murderer working there with those kids every day. Some were never found after "disappearing" from CEDU. The guy is currently on death row.
When I hear Aspen's talking heads make public statements, I hear the same things as before. Boy, were they wrong. I would never allow my kid to go to any one of these places simply for the fact that they employ people like this. Minimum wagers with no background checks abound at Aspen. BEWARE, Nigel, this goes on at this type of facility. The secrecy and lack of oversight are a magnet for child rapists. Aspen has been known to have had more than its share in their employ before and I bet now, too.
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The guy you mentioned is in Jail so he wont be bothering anyone, and CEDU is closed. So there are no more worries.
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Now I am worried, Jeffery Dahmer (http://http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/headsinmyfridge/Victims.html) worked in a chocolate factory. My sister is working in a chocolate factory in Hershey Pennsylvania. Do you think she is safe there? Or should I try to get her out? Do all chocolate factories have people like this working there?
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It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Aspen had a guy like this (http://http://alpenhornnews.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=1&twindow=&mad=&sdetail=388&wpage=1&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&ccatm=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&subname=&pform=&sc=2750&hn=alpenhornnews&he=.com) lurking around the facilites.
You know what the CEDU supporters were saying all along during this time? "CEDU is completely safe! These allegations are nonsense!" But, alas, there was a serial child rapist and murderer working there with those kids every day. Some were never found after "disappearing" from CEDU. The guy is currently on death row.
When I hear Aspen's talking heads make public statements, I hear the same things as before. Boy, were they wrong. I would never allow my kid to go to any one of these places simply for the fact that they employ people like this. Minimum wagers with no background checks abound at Aspen. BEWARE, Nigel, this goes on at this type of facility. The secrecy and lack of oversight are a magnet for child rapists. Aspen has been known to have had more than its share in their employ before and I bet now, too.
Great post. Aspen likes to sweep abuse under the rug. They have kids raped, beaten, sexually humiliated, you name it. Aspen does it all. They are a full service abuse shop for children. They have had many criminals working in their facilities because they don't do background checks. Anybody's kid could be being supervised by a sodomizer at Aspen. You just have no way to tell.
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Now I am worried, Jeffery Dahmer (http://http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/headsinmyfridge/Victims.html) worked in a chocolate factory. My sister is working in a chocolate factory in Hershey Pennsylvania. Do you think she is safe there? Or should I try to get her out? Do all chocolate factories have people like this working there?
If it were my sister I would pull her out right away, I wouldnt take any chances. You never know who is working at those chocolate factories, especially at night with little oversight. Jefferey Dahmer went undetected for decades. She could earn money any place, why did your parents get her a job at a chocolate factory knowing the history? Why not get her a job locally where she can be with family?
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I agree, pull her out of there today. I looked on the internet and there have been 2 recent deaths in chocolate factories. The owners are calling them both accidents, ppssh. But we all know better dont we. If it is determined that their deaths were not accidental these places will be heavily levied with government oversight so there is a strong motivation to have the local police label these as accidents otherwise there will be massive layoffs and probably reduce the police force as a result.
Also this company, Cocoa Services inc. hired some of the same management team from the chocolate factory that Jefferey Dahmer worked at, so we know abuse and death will follow them. I don’t know how they ever got a license.
Its all just one big cover-up. I think Vincents mother should sue them.
•An employee at a New Jersey chocolate (http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1198530/Death-chocolate-Factory-worker-meets-sweet-end-falling-vat-cocoa.html) processing plant died Wednesday after falling into a vat of hot chocolate, according to a spokesman for the Camden County Prosecutor's office.
Vincent Smith II, 29, was dumping raw chocolate into the vat for melting when he fell in from a nine-foot high platform. He suffered a fatal blow to the head from the vat's agitator, a paddle-like mechanism used for stirring the chocolate.
According to the Camden County prosecutor's office, three other people were on the platform at the time. One was able to shut the machinery off quickly, but it was too late to save Smith.
The facility, owned by Cocoa Services Inc., is managed and operated by by Lyons and Sons.
The rectangular vat, which was 8 feet deep, 14 feet long and 6 feet wide, was churning a batch of chocolate for Hershey's when the accident occurred, the prosecutor's office said.
Another one:
Authorities say the death of a worker at the South Bend (http://http://www.topix.com/forum/city/south-bend-in/TV1FJKO520R0GVGSU) Chocolate Company factory appears to have been an accident.
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Aspen's inherent flaws are the cause of the abuses that occur there. There is nothing indicated in any of the above claptrap to indicate that there is something in the nature of chocolate factories that make them dangerous. Only a lazy, stupid, or lazy and stupid person would make the above comparison in an effort to make the criticisms of Aspen appear misguided.
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I would never work in a chocolate factory after reading that. Gives me the Willies. I dont believe in coinsidences.
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I am asking questions of my son and his therapists. I am meeting his teachers and talking to other kids at The Ranch.
This entity is most assuredly TheWho’s alternative cyber personality or Aspen shill #2.
Whatever it is, I’d like to address its claim that Aspen Ranch prisoners see “therapists.”
After its investigation into Mount Bachelor Academy, the Oregon Department of Human Services concluded…
No staff members were qualified to treat drug or alcohol abuse, eating disorders or other mental health issues..”
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/ ... TE=DEFAULT (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OR_BOARDING_SCHOOL_SUSPENDED_OROL-?SITE=ORBEN&SECTION=STATE&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)
MBA was Aspen Education Group’s flagship torture chamber and presented the most clinical facade of all its “programs.”
Parents who paid it to imprison their offspring in the name of helping their mental health issues certainly believed it employed people qualified to treat mental health issues. AEG certainly stated they did.
Aspen Education Group officials lied to the MBA parents about its staff qualifications, before that they lied about staff qualifications at CEDU. They can just as easily lie about Aspen Ranch’s qualifications, and if they stick to their pattern of criminal, cultic behavior, they will. And if history is any indication, parents of prisoners would be fooled again.
Consciousness readers would be advised to not put faith in the assertions in NIGEL’S suspicious, anonymous internet posts, or in Aspen Education Group about the quality, or accreditation of its staff.
AEG’s founders and primary staff are members of the CEDU cult. They continue the CEDU protocol of abduction, imprisonment, brainwash, torture and fraud that so profited Mel Wasserman, and before him Charles E. Dederich.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synanon)
http://www.heal-online.org/cedu.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/cedu.htm)
http://liamscheff.com/daily/cedu-documentary/ (http://liamscheff.com/daily/cedu-documentary/)
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Nigel. DId you talk about the parent seminar you went to yet or did I miss that?
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I am asking questions of my son and his therapists. I am meeting his teachers and talking to other kids at The Ranch.
This entity is most assuredly TheWho’s alternative cyber personality or Aspen shill #2.
Whatever it is, I’d like to address its claim that Aspen Ranch prisoners see “therapists.”
After its investigation into Mount Bachelor Academy, the Oregon Department of Human Services concluded…
If you truly believed in what you say, guest, you would stand against Nigels argument with words and would not try to merely discredit him, call him thewho or sockpuppett in order to try to get people to believe you or get your point across. If you notice, Nigel doesn’t try to discredit everyone who disagrees with him because he knows what he speaks of is true. He doesn’t need to put others down in order to convince himself of his own words like you have.
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Nigel. DId you talk about the parent seminar you went to yet or did I miss that?
Yes, I already posted on the workshops----but it was my wife who attended, not me. I reported on everything she told me. Briefly: she liked the workshops, enjoyed meeting my son's therapist, and also enjoyed the time away from campus she got to spend with my son. Her main concern (and mine) right now is: when do we bring him home.
On a side note, my son has elected to go on a weekend "snow camping" retreat this weekend (he leaves today and gets back on Sunday morning). I have a scheduled phone call with him on Sunday afternoon, so I will let you know how that goes.
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Ha, Ha, Ha. Now TheWho claims to know NIGEL's psychology, thought processes and judgment? ONLY a sock-puppeteer would know any of that, Whooter. Your game is so lame it's not even funny. It is funny though to watch you try to convince people that you are just an outside observer to NIGEL's situation. Nobody believes it, buddy. EPIC FAIL.
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Ha, Ha, Ha. Now TheWho claims to know NIGEL's psychology, thought processes and judgment? ONLY a sock-puppeteer would know any of that, Whooter.
Or he doesn't and he's talking out his ass. Look. Nigel is not Whooter. Give it a rest. Sometimes parents do actually come on here.
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Just got done talking to my son and his therapist. My son took a two day "quest". They hiked all day Saturday and Sunday, camping out on Saturday night. The Saturday hike was in the snow and they camped out that night. My son said it was hard, but that he had a lot of time to think and that he was happy he went (he went by his choice).
The phone call went well. We talked about things he learned on his "quest" and what he is trying to accomplish. He is trying to reach the next level (greenhorn), and he talked about what he needed to do to reach this level. I will say that the more I talk to my son's therapist, the more I am impressed by her (my son seems to really listen to her advice and he respects her).
I am heading out over Thanksgiving to visit him and we are both looking forward to the visit.
I am in the process of talking to a lot of different people trying to figure out when the best time to bring my son home is. I will let you know what I am thinking and ask for advice as we go forward.
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Here's some advice, fuckhead. Don't put your kid in a Synanon-inspired penal program. Oh, too late.
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We talked a family out of placing a child in Aspen Ranch recently. After the parents learned what is real and what is sales pitch, they were horrified and are helping us. Always good to have another enlightened attorney amongst the righteous.
The mom said "Their website (Aspen Ranch) makes it look like they have it together. How can they get away with this?" Good question.
By the way Aspenites, that makes two families we've talked out of Aspen programs. Don't you hate me? Assholes.
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Wow. A whole two families? At this rate you might put them out of business.............................in 5,000 years!
:rofl:
Don't forget righteous warrior,
“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you're looking down, you can't see something that's above you.” CS Lewis
That thing above you,
it's the thousands of successful programs operating at this very moment.
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Just got done talking to my son and his therapist. My son took a two day "quest". They hiked all day Saturday and Sunday, camping out on Saturday night. The Saturday hike was in the snow and they camped out that night. My son said it was hard, but that he had a lot of time to think and that he was happy he went (he went by his choice).
The phone call went well. We talked about things he learned on his "quest" and what he is trying to accomplish. He is trying to reach the next level (greenhorn), and he talked about what he needed to do to reach this level. I will say that the more I talk to my son's therapist, the more I am impressed by her (my son seems to really listen to her advice and he respects her).
I am heading out over Thanksgiving to visit him and we are both looking forward to the visit.
I am in the process of talking to a lot of different people trying to figure out when the best time to bring my son home is. I will let you know what I am thinking and ask for advice as we go forward.
Thanks for the update Nigel. I am glad your son is connecting well with the therapist. This can make all the difference in the world as far as success or failure in the program.
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Wow. A whole two families? At this rate you might put them out of business.............................in 5,000 years!
:rofl:
Don't forget righteous warrior,
“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you're looking down, you can't see something that's above you.” CS Lewis
That thing above you,
it's the thousands of successful programs operating at this very moment.
Uh-huh. AEG can't afford to lose any placements these days. Check out their disclosures.
That was two families talked out of AEG, we've stopped more. The technique of reaching families before they make a regrettable placement needs to be shared so we can expedite shutting these holes down - we can't wait 5k years with AEG killing kids at the rate they currently are.
Contact local therapists/social workers and tell them about your experience with programs. Ask to speak with families who are considering placements to give them the info the program websites wouldn't dare to. These people don't make money of of placements and are often stunned by what they learn about the places they put blind faith in. If you can get between some pig of a programee/edcon and the desperate parent, you can prevent tragedies. It does work, kids.
Thousands of successful programs? You say that with pride. What does that say about our society?
So many of you idiot bastards, so little intelligence.
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Wow. A whole two families? At this rate you might put them out of business.............................in 5,000 years!
:rofl:
Don't forget righteous warrior,
“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you're looking down, you can't see something that's above you.” CS Lewis
That thing above you,
it's the thousands of successful programs operating at this very moment.
Uh-huh. AEG can't afford to lose any placements these days. Check out their disclosures.
That was two families talked out of AEG, we've stopped more. The technique of reaching families before they make a regrettable placement needs to be shared so we can expedite shutting these holes down - we can't wait 5k years with AEG killing kids at the rate they currently are.
Contact local therapists/social workers and tell them about your experience with programs. Ask to speak with families who are considering placements to give them the info the program websites wouldn't dare to. These people don't make money of of placements and are often stunned by what they learn about the places they put blind faith in. If you can get between some pig of a programee/edcon and the desperate parent, you can prevent tragedies. It does work, kids.
Thousands of successful programs? You say that with pride. What does that say about our society?
So many of you idiot bastards, so little intelligence.
Actually you have created a nice screening process for Aspen. If you are able to talk the parents out of it then they were never fully committed to helping their kids to begin with and those are the types of parents Aspen doesn’t want. Those types typically pull their kids out early and disrupt the program for the other kids.
Families are prescreened before acceptance and you are just providing this piece for free.
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A good place to start is looking through magazines that cater to the middle and upper classes...look in the classifieds in the back and you will find ads for these places. Sunset magazine is a big carrier of ads (they advertised CEDU for years).
the ads are usually "specialty schools" I think other mags that cater to the rich also carry those ads. You might want to send the mags documents showing how abusive these places are. I wonder, when the lawsuits go down if these magazines can be named as well. I know times are hard and they want all the ad money they can get but they may rethink things if enough people educate them.The technique of reaching families before they make a regrettable placement needs to be shared so we can expedite shutting these holes down - we can't wait 5k years with AEG killing kids at the rate they currently are
.
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Actually you have created a nice screening process for Aspen. If you are able to talk the parents out of it then they were never fully committed to helping their kids to begin with and those are the types of parents Aspen doesn’t want. Those types typically pull their kids out early and disrupt the program for the other kids.
Families are prescreened before acceptance and you are just providing this piece for free.
It sounds like you are gloating, but I have no idea why. I would not have posted the info about local mental health professionals if it didn't help prevent tragic placements. If we had spoken with Sergey Blashchishen's family he might still be alive and not a victim of your beloved system of programs.
As far as the prescreening goes: that went out the window with AEG three years ago, don't lie. You know full well when the decision was made to take anyone who can pay the tuition. Seriously. I cannot imagine telling the shareholders CRC is tanking and they are turning away "undesirables".
Still. This has made your black blood boil for some reason, seething and spitting out half-baked defenses and blustery bullshit.
Don't forget righteous warrior,
“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you're looking down, you can't see something that's above you.” CS Lewis
That thing above you,
it's the thousands of successful programs operating at this very moment.
Wow. Kind of like the starry firmament, huh? Why is there a big blackhole where Mt. Bachelor used to be?
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It sounds like you are gloating, but I have no idea why. I would not have posted the info about local mental health professionals if it didn't help prevent tragic placements. If we had spoken with Sergey Blashchishen's family he might still be alive and not a victim of your beloved system of programs.
As far as the prescreening goes: that went out the window with AEG three years ago, don't lie. You know full well when the decision was made to take anyone who can pay the tuition. Seriously. I cannot imagine telling the shareholders CRC is tanking and they are turning away "undesirables".
Not gloating at all, I understand it is tough to read into these posts sometimes, the disruption to the program is worse than not having a student start at all. The parents pull the child and then they want their money back... there are sometimes lawsuits.. its not good, very expensive. The prescreening saves the programs from this expense and the programs are able to adjust their staff to meet the number of beds that are filled so profits are not disrupted too much.
I am not trying to disuade you from talking parents out sending thier kids. Aspen only wants families and parents who can be committed to the entire process. It is critical in this economy.
keep up the work.
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Not gloating at all, I understand it is tough to read into these posts sometimes, the disruption to the program is worse than not having a student start at all. The parents pull the child and then they want their money back... there are sometimes lawsuits.. its not good, very expensive. The prescreening saves the programs from this expense and the programs are able to adjust their staff to meet the number of beds that are filled so profits are not disrupted too much.
I am not trying to disuade you from talking parents out sending thier kids. Aspen only wants families and parents who can be committed to the entire process. It is critical in this economy.
keep up the work.
There is no pre screening process, anyone who can pick up a phone and pretend to inquire about an Aspen program can get right up to signing the dotted line in the phone call.
Thanks for your support though. Glad you won't be working against us.
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Not gloating at all, I understand it is tough to read into these posts sometimes, the disruption to the program is worse than not having a student start at all. The parents pull the child and then they want their money back... there are sometimes lawsuits.. its not good, very expensive. The prescreening saves the programs from this expense and the programs are able to adjust their staff to meet the number of beds that are filled so profits are not disrupted too much.
I am not trying to disuade you from talking parents out sending thier kids. Aspen only wants families and parents who can be committed to the entire process. It is critical in this economy.
keep up the work.
There is no pre screening process, anyone who can pick up a phone and pretend to inquire about an Aspen program can get right up to signing the dotted line in the phone call.
Thanks for your support though. Glad you won't be working against us.
You can certainly try that method but you would never get your son/daughter accepted. Each program may not be suitable for every child and there is a process that you need to go thru to get in. I know you mentioned that you talked a few parents out of sending their child. Try talking to a few who had their child attend a program and they will fill you in on the acceptance process.
Dont take it the wrong way there are both sides to every issue and the main thing is that you are committed to what you are doing. If you can stop a few kids from going to a program then you feel good about yourself like I could see from your post and when a person who refers kids to programs gets a phone call that the child is doing well, going to college and moving down the right path then they feel good about what they do too and each success reinforces what each of you do.
To each other you may feel we are working against each other but we are both raising awareness and getting the kids the help they need. We just don’t agree on the path that they should take. If you can talk a parent out of sending their child then the child probably wasnt meant to go in the first place and hopefully will get the help he/she needs elsewhere. Most of it is upside.
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Dear Referring Professional Community,
We understand that there has been a flood of opinions and assumptions about Mount Bachelor Academy made in various forums lately, and we would like to clear up some of these rumors as well as update you on the status of our legal efforts.
First, we would like to reiterate that our initial focus has been and will continue to be on our students and families. The action by the Oregon DHS defies explanation, as we believe it was both entirely undeserved and unnecessarily urgent, thereby creating an enormous burden of distress and disruption to our students and families. After each student was carefully transitioned to alternative care or home, we began working to resolve academic issues. Upon notice of our suspension, we had nine students who were to graduate in December. At our attorney's insistence, the state agreed to modify the emergency license suspension so that MBA will be able to allow all students who had planned to graduate by the end of this year to complete their course work and receive diplomas on schedule.
Second, many of you have questioned why we have not mounted a more aggressive defense in the press, which has up to this point, produced numerous inaccurate and misleading reports. Given the complexity of the issues and the difficulty of discussing therapeutic approaches with public audiences amidst sensational headlines, we as a company decided not to pursue an extended defense in the press. Instead, we are focusing our efforts on the best legal options to defend the reputation of Mount Bachelor Academy and its outstanding, caring staff. Let me reassure you that we stand 100% behind the exceptional work accomplished at Mount Bachelor Academy and the talented professionals who worked tirelessly to help our students exceed even their own expectations. We did provide statements detailing our commitment to the school and its staff, yet the media often chose to ignore or incorporate mere portions of these statements.
It is with great regret that I share the reality that Mount Bachelor Academy will not reopen any time soon. Given the abrupt order to suspend operations and remove students within 48 hours, DHS effectively shut the school down. Rather than allowing us to make further adjustments to the program to address their concerns, as we had been doing for seven months, they determined that an emergency evacuation was needed.
Unfortunately and inexplicably, we have yet to be provided a copy of the full, unredacted report detailing the DHS allegations and findings. Although this full report will be central to our appeal of the allegations, we have already begun to "put the wheels in motion," so to speak.
Our attorneys are active on several fronts simultaneously. Before most of the students had left the campus, our attorneys had already appealed the emergency licensure suspension and the order requiring us to make further changes to the curriculum. The attorneys are pressing hard to get the complete and unredacted copy of the investigation report. They also are preparing to appeal the findings of the Office of Investigations and Training which substantiated the allegations of child abuse and neglect. We intend to challenge those findings vigorously, both on behalf of MBA and on behalf of its Executive Director personally.
Finally, our attorneys are exploring the possibility that the state may be financially liable to parents for the impact of the cruel and unnecessary manner in which the school's license was suspended. We have received reports by numerous parents of their intent to pursue their own legal action against the state for the unnecessary impact on their child and family.
We appreciate the outpouring of support we have received and continue to receive on behalf of the school and its employees. We hope that this communication helps to clarify the situation for you. We will do our best to continue to update you as more information becomes available and to the extent possible as we proceed with legal action.
Sincerely,
Phil Herschman
President, Aspen Education Group
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Just got back from visiting my son over Thanksgiving at The Aspen Ranch. We had Thanksgiving dinner at The Ranch. The food was actually pretty good. On Friday, I took him out for lunch and then a drive into Capitol Reef National Park. All in all, a good trip. My son really wants to come home and thinks he is ready. I asked him what he thought he needed to do to come home and he replied that he needed to work hard at everything (academics and therapy) and stay out of trouble. He knows that it is up to him and he said that he is going to show me he can do it. The hardest part about the whole trip (for both of us) was leaving, but right now he appears to be making a lot of progress. I go out again over Christmas (hopefully for a ski trip---if he makes the next level).
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Just got back from visiting my son over Thanksgiving at The Aspen Ranch. We had Thanksgiving dinner at The Ranch. The food was actually pretty good. On Friday, I took him out for lunch and then a drive into Capitol Reef National Park. All in all, a good trip. My son really wants to come home and thinks he is ready. I asked him what he thought he needed to do to come home and he replied that he needed to work hard at everything (academics and therapy) and stay out of trouble. He knows that it is up to him and he said that he is going to show me he can do it. The hardest part about the whole trip (for both of us) was leaving, but right now he appears to be making a lot of progress. I go out again over Christmas (hopefully for a ski trip---if he makes the next level).
Great news Nigel, it seems your son is making good progress. The ski trip will be a good incentive to work through to the next level. I believe if you talked to most of the kids there you would get the same response that they are ready to come home. But what they dont realize themselves is they are getting a tremendous amount of support within the safety of the program and this could fall apart very quickly when they come out and all of a sudden they dont have this support system around them 24/7. It takes time to grow enough strength and instil the behavior changes to the point where they can take care of themselves in the outside world without losing all that they have gained. It took years to slowly develop unhealthy habits so it will take time to reverse them to the point where they seek out a healthy life style on their own.
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I go out again over Christmas (hopefully for a ski trip---if he makes the next level).
I get the image of a circus animal in my mind, jumping through hoops for a reward. :eek:
What you are witnessing is behavior modification. I am not sure if you have children or not, Eliscu2, but if you do you would recognize the reward system or “Token Economy” (as most parents know of it). It is very damaging to threaten children to attain any goal, i.e. “toilet training at gun point”. Nigels son needs to be prepared for the outside world where people work and then get rewarded with a paycheck at the end of the week. The same with school you get an “A” if you work hard and do well (You dont get an “A” on the first day of school it is saved as a reward). And yes, the reality is that you need to jump through hoops to get the brass ring in life and you need to conform to certain standards set up by our current society if you want to live a happy life. This is what Nigel wants for his son. It is what we all want for our children.
I am not saying you need to earn a lot of money to be happy but most people need to have a sense of belonging to society (or a social group) in order to feel fulfilled and be happy. This is difficult to attain this if you are being self destructive and alienating those who care for you.
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The problem with level systems, or point systems, is that they are artificial devices that don't translate well to the real world.
But the real problem with level systems is that they're often used to deny youth healthy therapeutic coping mechanisms. Needing to reach a certain level before you can play your instrument, or make phone calls home to parents, or making visits home dependent on the behavior in the program. Control does not equate to therapy.
A program that has every incentive to make it last for 18 months (private funding) is going to be very different than a program that has an incentive to make it last three-six months (public funding). Those programs that are being forced to cut lengths of stay are finding that when they operate differently, their outcomes are better than when they made kids stay longer.
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The problem with level systems, or point systems, is that they are artificial devices that don't translate well to the real world.
Kids, even more so than adults, need a way to measure their progress towards a specific agreed upon goal and a level system is a great system that meets these needs and has a lot of flexibility to be adapted for each student.
But the real problem with level systems is that they're often used to deny youth healthy therapeutic coping mechanisms. Needing to reach a certain level before you can play your instrument, or make phone calls home to parents, or making visits home dependent on the behavior in the program. Control does not equate to therapy.
Well, I sort of see your point that they can be misused. But if the child sees that he can get to point “B” by a certain behaviour and get rewarded by being able to have more access to his/her instrument... larger dessert..longer call home..... more free time etc. then this is positive use of the level system. The whole idea is to put the control back into the hands of the child, not take it away.
A program that has every incentive to make it last for 18 months (private funding) is going to be very different than a program that has an incentive to make it last three-six months (public funding). Those programs that are being forced to cut lengths of stay are finding that when they operate differently, their outcomes are better than when they made kids stay longer.
Not sure I agree here either. Hazelden has found great success in their 6 to 12 month programs. The 30 day programs which is the upper limit of most health plan coverage is just not very effective. The longer a person can stay in treatment the better. Now with (kids) programs there is an incentive to try to reunite the family as quickly as possible because of the age of the child and the need for family unity. So if success can be attained in less than 18 months then the child should be send home. But the conflict comes with the business aspect and the pressure to keep the child beyond the time needed so as to collect more money from the parents, so this conflict needs to be highlighted and resolved somehow. So I agree with you there that it is a problem.
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::puke::
This thread is some sick fucking shit.
Good God I'm glad Nigel isn't real.
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Hi again,
Sorry to interupt all the other "interesting" topics on this forum, but, thought I would let you know how things are going and also ask for advice.
My son just made the next level (Greenhorn). That means we are going skiing for 4 days over Christmas---needless to say, we are all excited.
I am in the process of not only figuring out when to bring him home, but also setting things up at home so he has the best chance for success. I am talking to his therapists(here at home) and asking for advice from whoever wants to chime in. If anyone has any advice on things I should do (both before he comes home as well as when he does come home), I am listening. Thanks for your help.
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Nigel, you can probably expect that at some point your son will show signs of PTSD, from his time in program. When that happens it would be good if you have read up on that.
It would be excellent if you didn’t respond to any of the symptoms of his PTSD as cause for sending him away to be “fixed” again. I suggest this time you try to find ways that don’t involve hiring quacks to treat your son as if he is the problem. Try to find out as much as you can about how loved ones can aid in the problems of dealing with PTSD in an active and supportive way.
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In b4 ski lift "accident"
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In b4 ski lift "accident"
Now, this is the kind of advice I am looking for. I will make sure to not ride the lifts with my son, but instead I will send him up with some "hot" Utah girls. Thanks "Guest."
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In b4 ski lift "accident"
Now, this is the kind of advice I am looking for. I will make sure to not ride the lifts with my son, but instead I will send him up with some "hot" Utah girls. Thanks "Guest."
The veil slips.Is Nigel breaking character?
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I just got back from visiting with my son for 4 days. I picked him up at Aspen Ranch on Wednesday at 6:40 am and drove through a pretty heavy snowstorm to eventually end up at Sundance Ski Resort. We skied for three days (one of those days at Park City where we met another student and his father). All in all a great trip. We had a lot of time to talk (both about the present and the future). He appears to be heading in the right direction. As stated before, I am in the process of setting things up to bring him home (he desperately wants to come home). I told him about this website and he wants to contribute to it when he comes home. I will update again when plans are a little more set. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Nigel
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I just got back from visiting with my son for 4 days. I picked him up at Aspen Ranch on Wednesday at 6:40 am and drove through a pretty heavy snowstorm to eventually end up at Sundance Ski Resort. We skied for three days (one of those days at Park City where we met another student and his father). All in all a great trip. We had a lot of time to talk (both about the present and the future). He appears to be heading in the right direction. As stated before, I am in the process of setting things up to bring him home (he desperately wants to come home). I told him about this website and he wants to contribute to it when he comes home. I will update again when plans are a little more set. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Nigel
Great news Nigel, thanks for keeping us updated. I look forward to hearing how his stay went from his perspective. I am sure there will be many questions for him.
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Last two posts are incredibly obvious samefag. Yeah, he really isn't trying anymore.
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Quick update (in case anyone is interested). We are bringing our son home in the next 2 or 3 weeks. The time isn't set because he is still finishing up a credit in one of his classes and he needs to complete it in order to have a better transition into his new school (our public high school). His therapist and his teachers have all been very helpful in this process. I will report back when we bring him home.
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So your handlers told you to finally wrap this up as it wasn't going anywhere. We understand.
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Quick update (in case anyone is interested). We are bringing our son home in the next 2 or 3 weeks. The time isn't set because he is still finishing up a credit in one of his classes and he needs to complete it in order to have a better transition into his new school (our public high school). His therapist and his teachers have all been very helpful in this process. I will report back when we bring him home.
Great news Nigel, thanks for the update. Your son must be happy. I hope you continue to provide updates here after he arrives home. It would be great to hear from him and get his perspective on his time at Aspen Ranch also.
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Quick update (in case anyone is interested). We are bringing our son home in the next 2 or 3 weeks. The time isn't set because he is still finishing up a credit in one of his classes and he needs to complete it in order to have a better transition into his new school (our public high school). His therapist and his teachers have all been very helpful in this process. I will report back when we bring him home.
I wish you and your son luck. Earning one last credit took my niece about 10 months--the program was that incompetent at working with her to complete a 5-page paper. She was an A and B student when attending school at home. What a fabulous edjamacation she got at that thar school, ain't it?
Oh, and let's not forget those 10 months cost her parents more than $69,000.
Auntie Em
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The time isn't set...
Famous last words... Keep up the communiqués with and pressure on Aspen Ranch, Nigel! Else they may find some "reason," as AuntieEm2 intimates, to drag it out even longer.
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The time isn't set...
Famous last words... Keep up the communiqués with and pressure on Aspen Ranch, Nigel! Else they may find some "reason," as AuntieEm2 intimates, to drag it out even longer.
First of all, my son and I are the ones setting the time that I will pick him up. He didn't do much school work when he was first sent to the Aspen Ranch, but he has really been working hard the last 3 or 4 months. I am in contact with my son, his academic advisor, and all of his teachers. My son knows what he has to do, and he is working his butt off to get it done. The reason I am waiting for him to finish this last unit is so that when he starts up at his new school, he receives credit for all he has done. His teacher has said that he is working hard and that he will finish up in the next two weeks. My son has decided to do extra work over the weekend in hopes that he can finish up even sooner (his teacher supports this). I should know more when I check in again on Monday.
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Quick update (in case anyone is interested). We are bringing our son home in the next 2 or 3 weeks. The time isn't set because he is still finishing up a credit in one of his classes and he needs to complete it in order to have a better transition into his new school (our public high school). His therapist and his teachers have all been very helpful in this process. I will report back when we bring him home.
Great news Nigel, thanks for the update. Your son must be happy. I hope you continue to provide updates here after he arrives home. It would be great to hear from him and get his perspective on his time at Aspen Ranch also.
Thanks Whooter. I will continue to post updates after he gets home. Whether or not he posts is completely up to him. I have told him about this site and how I have been using it to make sure I hear both sides. He seemed somewhat interested.
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Just got word that my son is going to complete his last unit in English by Monday at the latest, so I am going to pick him up on Wednesday morning and bring him home. We are all excited and at the same time hopeful that the changes he has made are because he truly wants to change. I am well aware that he could drop right into his old patterns, but I am doing my best to set him up with a support system here at home so that doesn't happen. I will post again in a week or two to let you know how things are going.
And.....to my good friend "Pile of Dead Kids," yes I do have a son and he is coming home. I would hope you would be happy about that.
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Good news Nigel. The key (at least from my experience) is to keep him busy when he gets home and don’t allow for a lot of down time. He is use to structure and the shock of doing nothing for a few days may not be good. Don’t stress out too much if he regresses a little. The main thing is to keep the communication open. Your son has learned how to communicate very well and has matured quite a bit (you will be surprised) and you can always sit down and talk with him now vs laying down the law.
As far as “Pile of dead kids” I wouldn’t worry too much. With this new set up the trolls have all but left except a few. The Bruces, ajax’s and dysfunction Junctions of the world all need to log in to harass those they disagree with now ( or take on new names) which makes a difference and they have backed off.
I wish you luck. It will be an intense time for your family over the next few weeks and I will be praying that it all works out for you and your son. Check in with us if you can.
TheWho
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...I am going to pick him up on Wednesday morning and bring him home.
Wishing you Good Luck during this first week, Nigel!
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Wait a sec... Whooter has always maintained that any parents pulling their kids from the program are making a grave mistake. Whooter claims that only kids who complete the program have a real chance to "succeed." Has Whooter now shifted his stance? Does Whooter now believe that kids pulled early will be "successful"? If so, why send them in the first place?
And Whooter, now forced to log in, has stopped his incessant trolling with "multiple personalities" and seems to have scaled back to just his "Whooter" ID and his "NIGEL" ID. It's a start. :rofl:
I just find it amusing that a guy who was banned for flooding (Whooter) and who is the most prolific troll of all time at Fornits fancies himself an appropriate commentator on the subject of the dimunition of trolling. How sweetly ironic.
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Wait a sec... Whooter has always maintained that any parents pulling their kids from the program are making a grave mistake. Whooter claims that only kids who complete the program have a real chance to "succeed." Has Whooter now shifted his stance? Does Whooter now believe that kids pulled early will be "successful"? If so, why send them in the first place?
I sense your frustration,DJ, in having to log in but I give you credit….. your post was constructive and you made a good point. You are right and remembered that I am indeed against pulling kids out early.
From experience I have seen that pulling a child out before they are ready (or have completed the program) can be worse for the child then if they had never attended. This interruption can make the child more angry and confused………Many times the child feels their manipulation of their parents succeeded so this reinforces this behavior and they head down a more destructive path then they were on originally. So in these cases pulling a child against the programs recommendations I would not be in favor of.
From what I have followed so far on Nigels postings he has been working with the school and his sons therapist to secure a viable release date for his son. If the school feels he has progressed to the point where he can continue to get well with home services and family support and that they have a solid transitional plan from school to home then I would agree that this would be best for Nigels situation.
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Wait a sec... Whooter has always maintained that any parents pulling their kids from the program are making a grave mistake. Whooter claims that only kids who complete the program have a real chance to "succeed." Has Whooter now shifted his stance? Does Whooter now believe that kids pulled early will be "successful"? If so, why send them in the first place?
My son and I are home. Wednesday was quite the adventure as I left Las Vegas at 4 am and drove 6 hours in some pretty bad conditions to Aspen Ranch. The drive back was much easier as the sun came out and the road was in much better condition. Flight home from Vegas was bumpy but on time.
In response to the above: I pulled my son early because I felt like it was the best decision, considering. My son is turning 18 in a couple of months, and I knew that he would probably walk out (on his terms). He had been working very hard and I decided to bring him home and reward him for his efforts. Whether this was a good decision, you never know. I did discuss this with his therapist at the Aspen Ranch, and we all agreed that it was probably the best thing to do.
We have already met with the dean at his new school and he is signed up for classes. We have a meeting tomorrow with his psychologist here at home. We are trying our best to support him in every way possible, but ultimately, it is up to him if he truly wants to make positive changes (he claims he does).
Many thanks to those that have sent their best wishes. We are trying our best and keeping our fingers crossed. I will post again to let you know how things are going.
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Wait a sec... Whooter has always maintained that any parents pulling their kids from the program are making a grave mistake. Whooter claims that only kids who complete the program have a real chance to "succeed." Has Whooter now shifted his stance? Does Whooter now believe that kids pulled early will be "successful"? If so, why send them in the first place?
My son and I are home. Wednesday was quite the adventure as I left Las Vegas at 4 am and drove 6 hours in some pretty bad conditions to Aspen Ranch. The drive back was much easier as the sun came out and the road was in much better condition. Flight home from Vegas was bumpy but on time.
In response to the above: I pulled my son early because I felt like it was the best decision, considering. My son is turning 18 in a couple of months, and I knew that he would probably walk out (on his terms). He had been working very hard and I decided to bring him home and reward him for his efforts. Whether this was a good decision, you never know. I did discuss this with his therapist at the Aspen Ranch, and we all agreed that it was probably the best thing to do.
We have already met with the dean at his new school and he is signed up for classes. We have a meeting tomorrow with his psychologist here at home. We are trying our best to support him in every way possible, but ultimately, it is up to him if he truly wants to make positive changes (he claims he does).
Many thanks to those that have sent their best wishes. We are trying our best and keeping our fingers crossed. I will post again to let you know how things are going.
Here is hoping everything turns out okay and your son decides to stay on a positive path. Keep us updated, Nigel.
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Watch the circus monkeys try to make people pay attention to their act. Don't give them any peanuts.
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It has been about 6 weeks since we have brought our son home. Personally, he is in a much better place (and so am I). We haven't had any full-out-arguments with all the threats. We are able to talk things through much better now. He has moments where his depression shows, but he seems to better understand it and manage it. We have him seeing a psychiatrist and a psychologist. He is also going to an accupunturist----he thought his first appointment was "really cool."
School is still an issue. He started off the semester not turning anything in (even though he told me that he had everything under control). He talks about wanting to go to college but he doesn't follow through on doing what he needs to do to get there. The last week has been much better (with him turning in his assignments and actually studying). I am hoping that this is a sign that he is ready to start working. I will post an update again in a couple of weeks.
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It has been about 6 weeks since we have brought our son home. Personally, he is in a much better place (and so am I). We haven't had any full-out-arguments with all the threats. We are able to talk things through much better now. He has moments where his depression shows, but he seems to better understand it and manage it. We have him seeing a psychiatrist and a psychologist. He is also going to an accupunturist----he thought his first appointment was "really cool."
School is still an issue. He started off the semester not turning anything in (even though he told me that he had everything under control). He talks about wanting to go to college but he doesn't follow through on doing what he needs to do to get there. The last week has been much better (with him turning in his assignments and actually studying). I am hoping that this is a sign that he is ready to start working. I will post an update again in a couple of weeks.
Hey, its good to get an update, Nigel. My daughter and I communicated so much better when she got home. We didnt agree on things anymore than we did prior to the program but we were able to talk things out and compromise. She matured so quickly during her time their. It seems your son did the same. The whole school thing was a difficult issue to get past but once she settle in she did fine. Its a good sign that he is talking about college. Hopefully this becomes a good motivator.
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It's been awhile since my last post. Thought I might let those interested in knowing how things are going. My son is doing well emotionally. He has some friends that he likes to hang out with and he has a girl friend that I really like. He has a new job---bus boy at a decent restaurant---that he really likes. He seems to be working hard and enjoying his co-workers. The area I am hopeful he will improve in is school. He did very poorly the last semester. At times he will say that he has no interest in getting an education, and then two days later he will ask if I can take him on a trip to visit a couple of colleges (we have one planned). He claims he is going to get his act together, but he doesn't follow through. I have stopped "nagging" him about it because that got me nowhere in the past and probably even backfired on me. I am hoping he will find something he has a passion for and then pursue it.
He rarely talks about Aspen Ranch, but when he does, here is what he has to say----"it was like a prison", "some of the people there were good and they cared about us, but some were total assholes", "I liked some of the kids there","some of the teachers were into their subject, but most were lame", "why would anyone send their kid to a place like that", "I didn't like it, but it did give me a chance to gain some perspective." (I am obviously paraphrasing).
I am not sure how I feel about Aspen Ranch. It is hard to say whether or not it was the right thing to do, but as I have stated before, it was the decision we made at the time and there is no going back. I will post again and let you know how things are going.
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"it was like a prison"
And so Aspen programs are. I believe people here hipped you that fact early on. You're lucky he talks to you at all and might not once he doesn't need you anymore. That's a pretty typical reaction for basically normal kids whose parents have them incarcerated at kiddie jails for being a teenager. I hope you have enough money left to send the lad to college if he's lucky enough to get accepted. It's also not lost on me that you went against the pro-program extremists here who claim every kid pulled fom the program is headed for death, jail or insanity. Getting him out early was better than letting him rot in his self-described Aspen prison.
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It was the wrong thing to do but you can not take it back now. You meant well but that will not change much in his mind. Hopefully the time away from his environment allowed him some perspective and maturity. This really could have been accomplished in better circumstances.
My advice to you is to be prepared to admit this was a mistake regardless of your son's actions which led you to send him away. Flashbacks and nightmares can persist for years. What it feels like to be locked away from the world is difficult to talk about with someone who has not been there. Regain his trust by taking him seriously because what happened there still troubles him.
Encourage him in his educational goals. Self-doubt makes success in college seem impossible. It is easier psychologically to decide you don't want to go anyway.
I could say more but I hope this much is helpful. It took me a long time to fully forgive my parents. This is what I wish they could have done for me when I came home.
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It's been awhile since my last post. Thought I might let those interested in knowing how things are going. My son is doing well emotionally. He has some friends that he likes to hang out with and he has a girl friend that I really like. He has a new job---bus boy at a decent restaurant---that he really likes. He seems to be working hard and enjoying his co-workers. The area I am hopeful he will improve in is school. He did very poorly the last semester. At times he will say that he has no interest in getting an education, and then two days later he will ask if I can take him on a trip to visit a couple of colleges (we have one planned). He claims he is going to get his act together, but he doesn't follow through. I have stopped "nagging" him about it because that got me nowhere in the past and probably even backfired on me. I am hoping he will find something he has a passion for and then pursue it.
He rarely talks about Aspen Ranch, but when he does, here is what he has to say----"it was like a prison", "some of the people there were good and they cared about us, but some were total assholes", "I liked some of the kids there","some of the teachers were into their subject, but most were lame", "why would anyone send their kid to a place like that", "I didn't like it, but it did give me a chance to gain some perspective." (I am obviously paraphrasing).
I am not sure how I feel about Aspen Ranch. It is hard to say whether or not it was the right thing to do, but as I have stated before, it was the decision we made at the time and there is no going back. I will post again and let you know how things are going.
Nigel, Thanks for bringing us an update. I asked my daughter not too long ago if she did it over would she want to go back to ASR and she said “No way”. She would have done things differently so that she wouldn’t have had to go. Lol. But she also said it helped her and knows a friend who would have benefitted from it also.
But I can tell that your sons’ response is honest because he talked about the good with the bad.
My daughter also met some good people and some people she didn’t like too much which is how it will be in life. The kids got together this year and are planning a reunion…….College can be daunting to some kids and I allowed my daughter to take her time in her approach and kind of sneak up on it. She responded better with allowing her to take the lead on some things. The biggest part was the communication was much better.
Hang in there, Nigel, and let us know how you son progresses and thanks for the update.
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Ignore Whooter.
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My advice to you is to be prepared to admit this was a mistake regardless of your son's actions which led you to send him away. Flashbacks and nightmares can persist for years. What it feels like to be locked away from the world is difficult to talk about with someone who has not been there. Regain his trust by taking him seriously because what happened there still troubles him.
And excellent advice that be, thomasC.
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"it was like a prison"
That's a pretty typical reaction for basically normal kids whose parents have them incarcerated at kiddie jails for being a teenager.
We obviously have a different definition for "basically normal kids" and "just being a teenager." If you call death threats to his parents, suicide threats to himself, drug use, failing school, running away, and stealing as just being a normal teenager, then that is where we differ. My son needed something more than a "normal teenager" needs. Whether Aspen Ranch was a good choice---that is open to debate.
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I would say stealing, failing school, running away, hating the parents are all within the spectrum of "more or less normal" depending on the severity. Threatening to kill oneself should be taken seriously, but taking an allegedly suicidal kid and placing him somewhere where he's largely unsupervised and completely untreated with a bunch of other "troubled" kids is a bad mistake.
Anyway, Aspen Ranch is well known to be an abusive, prison-like detention facility using the "level system" so no matter what was "wrong" with your kid, sending him to Aspen Ranch could not possibly have helped. He's going to resent you for it for a loooong time. Don't be surprised that as soon as he doesn't need you anymore for hot meals and roof over his head that he just cuts you off forever. If you can't trust you own dad, there's not much of a relationship to be had there.
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I would say stealing, failing school, running away, hating the parents are all within the spectrum of "more or less normal" depending on the severity. Threatening to kill oneself should be taken seriously, but taking an allegedly suicidal kid and placing him somewhere where he's largely unsupervised and completely untreated with a bunch of other "troubled" kids is a bad mistake.
Anyway, Aspen Ranch is well known to be an abusive, prison-like detention facility using the "level system" so no matter what was "wrong" with your kid, sending him to Aspen Ranch could not possibly have helped. He's going to resent you for it for a loooong time. Don't be surprised that as soon as he doesn't need you anymore for hot meals and roof over his head that he just cuts you off forever. If you can't trust you own dad, there's not much of a relationship to be had there.
DJ, why are you acting like this. This is the crap that makes you look irresponsible. You are not a parent of a teenager at risk, stop acting like you have all the answers. Damn it, man.
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Danny, I hope you're not trying to make the fallacious argument that anyone who has not physically done or experienced something themselves cannot know about it. You know that's ridiculous.
In a world like you describe there couln't possibly be any innovation at all - nobody could invent anything new. That's silly. It's like me saying to you "You never designed a computer, so you can't be using one to connect to the internet." Is that really what you think? If so, how could anyone who works at a program, but never raised a "troubled teen," be able to "help" any "troubled teens"? It's a rather simplistic analysis, don't you think?
When I was in private practice I saw literally dozens of kids who went to programs and had serious psychological issues (anxiety, depression, PTSD) from being abused at a program. Almost down to a one they would say they couldn't discuss any of it with their parents because their trust was destroyed. Many never spoke to their parents again. I think I have some good insight into this phenomenon and you ought not to be so judgmental of others' experiences or put forth some very weak argument like the one above.
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Danny, I hope you're not trying to make the fallacious argument that anyone who has not physically done or experienced something themselves cannot know about it. You know that's ridiculous.
In a world like you describe there couln't possibly be any innovation at all - nobody could invent anything new. That's silly. It's like me saying to you "You never designed a computer, so you can't be using one to connect to the internet." Is that really what you think? If so, how could anyone who works at a program, but never raised a "troubled teen," be able to "help" any "troubled teens"? It's a rather simplistic analysis, don't you think?
When I was in private practice I saw literally dozens of kids who went to programs and had serious psychological issues (anxiety, depression, PTSD) from being abused at a program. Almost down to a one they would say they couldn't discuss any of it with their parents because their trust was destroyed. Many never spoke to their parents again. I think I have some good insight into this phenomenon and you ought not to be so judgmental of others' experiences or put forth some very weak argument like the one above.
:jawdrop:
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I am curious, Nigel, I assume you had psychological and academic testing done on your son, either prior to or during his stay at Aspen Ranch. Was the individual who perfromed the testing, if it was a done, a psychologist and what instruments did they use? What did his scores look like? Was there a discrepancy between his verbal and performance scores? Your description of his inability to carry out academic goals might be answered by appropriate testing. If testing was done prior to Aspen, it might bode well to have him retested. Frequently, depression can negatively surpress scores and a change in his scores would and could identify that.
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I am curious, Nigel, I assume you had psychological and academic testing done on your son, either prior to or during his stay at Aspen Ranch. Was the individual who perfromed the testing, if it was a done, a psychologist and what instruments did they use? What did his scores look like? Was there a discrepancy between his verbal and performance scores? Your description of his inability to carry out academic goals might be answered by appropriate testing. If testing was done prior to Aspen, it might bode well to have him retested. Frequently, depression can negatively surpress scores and a change in his scores would and could identify that.
Without going into detail, yes my son has been tested by two different psychologists (prior to going to Aspen Ranch). He is currently seeing both a psychiatrist and a psychologist (by his choice). We are supporting him every way we can. He is 18 now, so he is making the decisions and I try not to give advice unless asked for it. On a positive note, my son just told me he wants to go with me when I travel to see my Mom (we will be gone for a week).
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How exactly did Aspen Ranch say they were going to treat your son's presenting problems? Did they explain to you that they use a program ruled to be child abuse by regulators? Or did they soft-sell you some kind of touchy-feely bullshit?
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How exactly did Aspen Ranch say they were going to treat your son's presenting problems? Did they explain to you that they use a program ruled to be child abuse by regulators? Or did they soft-sell you some kind of touchy-feely bullshit?
As I have stated before, I am not here to advocate for Aspen Ranch. I only came to this forum to seek advice for my son and our family.
In my opinion (and my son's), his psychologist at Aspen Ranch was very good and also very caring. I can also tell you that some of the unlicensed counselors at Aspen Ranch were some of my son's favorites. They spent time talking to him and encouraging him. There were also some staff that obviously weren't well suited to deal with boys like my son. My son felt like some of the staff were just there to pick up a paycheck and that they could care less about what they were doing. I think the same could be said about every school and workplace in the world.
If you asked me today if we would make the same decision to send our son to Aspen Ranch, I'm not sure. It is impossible to say what would have happened if we hadn't. We made the decision and now we are moving on.
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his psychologist at Aspen Ranch
Aspen programs do not provide psychological services, nor do they employ psychologists, as they stated in court.
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his psychologist at Aspen Ranch
Aspen programs do not provide psychological services, nor do they employ psychologists, as they stated in court.
Nigel Dsfunction Junction is trying to make you feel guilty for sending your child to a program. DJ has tried to do this several times with Whooter but failed. Niles stay strong.
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his psychologist at Aspen Ranch
Aspen programs do not provide psychological services, nor do they employ psychologists, as they stated in court.
Nigel Dsfunction Junction is trying to make you feel guilty for sending your child to a program. DJ has tried to do this several times with Whooter but failed. Niles stay strong.
Are you disputing what DJ said? That Aspen programs do not provide psych services, nor employ psychologists? Or are you just throwing out another ad hominem cuz you got nothing?
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Are you disputing what DJ said? That Aspen programs do not provide psych services, nor employ psychologists? Or are you just throwing out another ad hominem cuz you got nothing?
Anne did you mean to write cuz or because? :moon:
:jawdrop:
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Are you disputing what DJ said? That Aspen programs do not provide psych services, nor employ psychologists? Or are you just throwing out another ad hominem cuz you got nothing?
Anne did you mean to write cuz or because? :moon:
:jawdrop:
Still got nuthin'...huh? That's ok....we're used to it from you by now.
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Anne provide legitimate proof of you claims all ASPEN programs don't provide such services. I don't think this is true because you're trying to muddy the waters. It's time to move along woman. WOW!!!
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Anne provide legitimate proof of you claims all ASPEN programs don't provide such services. I don't think this is true because you're trying to muddy the waters. It's time to move along woman. WOW!!!
They said it it court. Look it up, lazy ass.
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Anne provide legitimate proof of you claims all ASPEN programs don't provide such services. I don't think this is true because you're trying to muddy the waters. It's time to move along woman. WOW!!!
They said it it court. Look it up, lazy ass.
You cannot provide a link or proof. I think that proves my theory you're trying to muddy the waters Anne. Move on woman!. WOW!!! :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
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Anne provide legitimate proof of you claims all ASPEN programs don't provide such services. I don't think this is true because you're trying to muddy the waters. It's time to move along woman. WOW!!!
They said it it court. Look it up, lazy ass.
You cannot provide a link or proof. I think that proves my theory you're trying to muddy the waters Anne. Move on woman!. WOW!!! :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
If I recall correctly they were referring to one child. His parents didnt opt for the individual therapy (which is extra) which is provided by an outside source typically, depending on the program. They wont provide a link because it doesnt say Aspen as a whole doesnt provide therapy.
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[quote author="Aspen Education Group lawyers..AEG not mental health program. never promised to be. none of our employees are medical personel, we are free to turn the details of confessions we mandate over to the police."]Aspen Education Group does not provide a therapeutic milieu that is conformative to standards set by any medical body for their "patients," medically recognized therapy, or medically accredited personnel, Aspen's own lawyers successfully argued in Pence v. Aspen Education Group.
http://www.websupp.org/data/DOR/6:05-cv ... 80-DOR.pdf (http://www.websupp.org/data/DOR/6:05-cv-06199-80-DOR.pdf)
Aspen education group turned the details of one of the confessions it mandates from its "patients" over to the police.
The "patient" had confessed he had peeped into the girls dorm, after climbing onto a roof.
The "patient's" parents sued over Aspens failure to provide a clinically valid therapeutic milieu, for failing to conform to clinical, medical standards, for violating the confidentiality of the patient/ therapist relationship, and for subjecting their "patient" to "therapy" from a group of people who were not licensed therapists or medical personnel.
Aspen Education Group's defense was that, yes, they failed to provide therapy that conforms to standards of medicine, but that was OK because they ONLY agreed to provide...
"group and individual counseling as dictated by
PROGRAM design......NorthStar did not promise to do the things that plaintiffs
complain they failed to do, such as provide counseling by a
LICENSED counselor,2"
Aspen education Group argued that confessions the "patient" was expected to make was NOT part of a therapeutic treatment program, and that NorthStar was NOT a drug and alcohol or mental health therapy program.
Aspen Education Group argued largely SUCCESSFULLY that because their "patient's" therapist was unlicensed and semi-successfully that because their employees were not actual medical personnel, HiPPA statues did not apply to them.
"Because she is not a licensed counselor and there is no evidence she is an employee of a licensed counselor, Harless is not subject to confidentiality laws applicable to licensed counselors and their employees."
"There is insufficient evidence to conclude that there are no disputed issues of fact as to whether information conveyed by Harless to police was protected health information within the meaning of HIPAA, and whether NorthStar is a covered entity within the meaning of HIPAA."
[/quote]
In this case Aspen Education Group, the parent company of all Aspen programs, admitted in court that they do not provide therapy. In fact, their defense to violation of patient rights is that they have no patients because they provide no therapy.
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"group and individual counseling as dictated by
PROGRAM design......NorthStar did not promise to do the things that plaintiffs
complain they failed to do, such as provide counseling by a
LICENSED counselor,2"
My Daughter attended an Aspen School ASR, and she saw an independent, licensed therapist. But the individual therapy was paid for directly to the therapist. This was an option that parents can get for their child if they want to. So basically some kids get the one on one therapy and others do not, they get the group therapy.
I do understand the confusion with those who have never been through it before.
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So, just to be clear, Aspen Education Group provides no therapy whatsoever, as they admitted in court.
Parents pay separately for therapy if they want to, but the systematic program abuse is covered by Aspen's fee schedule.
Just an interesting tidbit: ASR, The Academy at Swift River (which has also been charged with abusing children) is the "sister school" of Mount Bachelor Academy (another Aspen Education program) which was recently shut down by authorities who reported in their official investigation that all children at Aspen were abused. All of Aspen's facilities run the same abusive program.
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So, just to be clear, Aspen Education Group provides no therapy whatsoever, as they admitted in court.
Parents pay separately for therapy if they want to, but the systematic program abuse is covered by Aspen's fee schedule.
Just an interesting tidbit: ASR, The Academy at Swift River (which has also been charged with abusing children) is the "sister school" of Mount Bachelor Academy (another Aspen Education program) which was recently shut down by authorities who reported in their official investigation that all children at Aspen were abused. All of Aspen's facilities run the same abusive program.
I am sorry I debunked your theories, DJ. You need to come to the table with facts. I know first hand that you can get individual therapy at Aspen programs, but not all kids get it. I paid for it and my daughter received it, independent and licensed. Depends on the individual families if they want it or not.
You need to support your arguments better and read the complaints.
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You're just repeating what I already said: The systematic abuse is included in the fee schedule, but there is no therapy provided by Aspen (you have to pay extra for an "independent" therapist). We agree. Aspen's lawyers made the same point in court, too. So we all agree.
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You're just repeating what I already said: The systematic abuse is included in the fee schedule, but there is no therapy provided by Aspen (you have to pay extra for an "independent" therapist). We agree. Aspen's lawyers made the same point in court, too. So we all agree.
Some of the schools dont provide independent therapy others do, it depends on the program. The ones that do not have individual therapists on staff bring in therapists once per week from outside. So they provide therapy (but are not part of the staff). This also alleviates any misconception that the programs are secretive and isolated.
I think you can now see what the lawyer was talking about, its all in the wording. The parents opted not to have the therapy segment for their child. Its a choice.
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his psychologist at Aspen Ranch
Aspen programs do not provide psychological services, nor do they employ psychologists, as they stated in court.
DJ the man just said his son received said services, why do you have to contest. Man, do you have to argue with everyone who doesn't suit your take on programs.
Your beginning to resemble the other extremist here.
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DJ and company don't have a school to slander and they're abusing ASPEN which has been easy for them to do. DJ STFU about Nigel and quite bashing Whooter. You act like a fucking two year old. Use your Phd instead of sitting in front of your computer all day. Dude look at Bennison. The guy doesn't have an advanced degree like you and he's making more money than you. What does that mean DJ? He works his ass off and uses his brain!
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In my opinion (and my son's), his psychologist at Aspen Ranch was very good and also very caring.
My daughters' was also. She still stays in contact with a few of the other counselors that she met there.
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Danny, I hope you're not trying to make the fallacious argument that anyone who has not physically done or experienced something themselves cannot know about it. You know that's ridiculous.
In a world like you describe there couln't possibly be any innovation at all - nobody could invent anything new. That's silly. It's like me saying to you "You never designed a computer, so you can't be using one to connect to the internet." Is that really what you think? If so, how could anyone who works at a program, but never raised a "troubled teen," be able to "help" any "troubled teens"? It's a rather simplistic analysis, don't you think?
When I was in private practice I saw literally dozens of kids who went to programs and had serious psychological issues (anxiety, depression, PTSD) from being abused at a program. Almost down to a one they would say they couldn't discuss any of it with their parents because their trust was destroyed. Many never spoke to their parents again. I think I have some good insight into this phenomenon and you ought not to be so judgmental of others' experiences or put forth some very weak argument like the one above.
Righhhhht, everything is weak according to you, you are the authority. I don't need a Phd to argue with you DJ, I know in my bones you have limited experience in this field. I am experiencing you through your writings. This is not intended to insult you, I just think you should tone done the rhetoric a little.
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DJ and company don't have a school to slander and they're abusing ASPEN which has been easy for them to do
I think you're mixed up, Pile of Shit. Aspen abuses children. I just post the reports by authorities that are shutting down Aspen facilities for abuse, neglect and killing children. And, yes, it's easy to find plenty of documentation on Aspen's abuse, because they keep getting hit for it over and over.
How does one go about "abusing" a corporation anyway, I wonder?
FWIW, my new personal troll isn't very good at trolling at all. He's one of the most blatant, obvious ones I've seen. Never even makes a point of fact to counter an argument. Debate is not his strong suit. Maybe he went to Glenn Beck University? :cheers: :rofl:
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his psychologist at Aspen Ranch
Aspen programs do not provide psychological services, nor do they employ psychologists, as they stated in court.
DJ the man just said his son received said services, why do you have to contest. Man, do you have to argue with everyone who doesn't suit your take on programs.
Your beginning to resemble the other extremist here.
Danny, the man said he received such services, but not from Aspen Education. You really need to do some reading first before calling people names. Did you read the link a few posts back to the Pence vs. Aspen Education Group lawsuit? Aspen Education's lawyers argued successfully in court that they were not bound by HIPAA because they do not provide therapy of any kind and do not employ licensed therapists. It's right there in cold print, Danny.
If you think that saying "Aspen Education offers no therapy" is "extreme," then you ought to take it up with Aspen Education, because it is they who successfully argued that very point in court. It's unambiguous, Danny.
Aspen Education Group does not provide a therapeutic milieu that is conformative to standards set by any medical body for their "patients," medically recognized therapy, or medically accredited personnel, Aspen's own lawyers successfully argued in Pence v. Aspen Education Group.
Which part of that are you having trouble comprehending? Is it your argument that people here should believe the word of an anonymous poster over court records? That doesn't make much sense, does it?
Even Whooter came right out and said it - he paid extra for a therapist because Aspen Education doesn't provide therapy. Why aren't you calling Whooter an "extremist," Danny? We made the same statements, almost verbatim. You're having trouble with being objective while you rant and rave about people's biases.
If you need to remain intentionally ignorant of the facts to maintain your belief system, your belief system is unsustainable. When that happens, you will cease to be adding anything to the discussion here and you will be simply another willfully ignorant troll.
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Danny let DJ foam at the mouth. He want's to pick a fight with Whooter because everyone else will join the party.
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You need to look at each program separately. Some programs have therapists on staff and others do not. Some of the ones who do not have therapists on staff provide therapy from an outside source (independent) and you pay them separately. But the services are provided on site (within the programs grounds)
The hospital that is in our area states they provide a variety of services but many of them are "out sourced". Their xrays are done on site (within the hospital grounds) but you need to pay someone other than the hospital for their services, they are owned and operated independent from the hospital. This is becoming more common place.
If you had a problem with the way your xrays were being done you would have to take it up with the people providing the xray (not the hospital). The hospitals lawyers would argue that the xray was outsourced.
Walmart Claims they provide food so you can have a lunch there while you shop. But the food it provided by "Subway", so if you have a problem with your food you need to take it up with Subway corporation not Walmart. You cannot successfully sue Walmart if you get sick eating there. But they can still maintain they provide food as a service. lol Funny I know
So can the hospital state they provide these services? I guess it is up to how an individual defines provide... on-staff, on site...etc.
Everything is being outsourced these days!!
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You need to look at each program separately. Some programs have therapists on staff and others do not. Some of the ones who do not have therapists on staff provide therapy from an outside source (independent) and you pay them separately. But the services are provided on site (within the programs grounds)
So, we are all in agreement. The only 'therapy' provided is optional and at the parents' expense. The program itself does not constitute 'therapy' in any form and this has been successfully argued in court by Aspen.
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You need to look at each program separately. Some programs have therapists on staff and others do not. Some of the ones who do not have therapists on staff provide therapy from an outside source (independent) and you pay them separately. But the services are provided on site (within the programs grounds)
So, we are all in agreement. The only 'therapy' provided is optional and at the parents' expense. The program itself does not constitute 'therapy' in any form and this has been successfully argued in court by Aspen.
You have to look at it on a program by program bases. Some may have therapists on staff and provide one on one therapy as an integral part of the program and other programs may out source the individual therapy and treat it as optional.
Not all kids need the one on one, some may do well with only group therapy.
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You need to look at each program separately. Some programs have therapists on staff and others do not. Some of the ones who do not have therapists on staff provide therapy from an outside source (independent) and you pay them separately. But the services are provided on site (within the programs grounds)
So, we are all in agreement. The only 'therapy' provided is optional and at the parents' expense. The program itself does not constitute 'therapy' in any form and this has been successfully argued in court by Aspen.
You have to look at it on a program by program bases. Some may have therapists on staff and provide one on one therapy as an integral part of the program and other programs may out source the individual therapy and treat it as optional.
Not all kids need the one on one, some may do well with only group therapy.
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You continue to use the word therapy. The program claims it is not therapy. Stop calling it that.
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You need to look at each program separately. Some programs have therapists on staff and others do not. Some of the ones who do not have therapists on staff provide therapy from an outside source (independent) and you pay them separately. But the services are provided on site (within the programs grounds)
So, we are all in agreement. The only 'therapy' provided is optional and at the parents' expense. The program itself does not constitute 'therapy' in any form and this has been successfully argued in court by Aspen.
You have to look at it on a program by program bases. Some may have therapists on staff and provide one on one therapy as an integral part of the program and other programs may out source the individual therapy and treat it as optional.
Not all kids need the one on one, some may do well with only group therapy.
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You continue to use the word therapy. The program claims it is not therapy. Stop calling it that.
You need to look at each program independently. Some programs provide individual therapy and others may not. Some have therapists on staff and others outsource their individual therapist and psychologists.
This is why I suggest that parents understand what the costs are up front and whether or not they feel their child will need individual therapy. The advantage of having a therapist which is outsourced (not on staff) is that this therapist can gain a perspective which is independent of the program and if they feel the program is not effective for the individual child then they can relay this information back to the parents or to the childs therapist at home.
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There is obviously a lot of debate here concerning "therapy." I will not join the debate, but I will say that any parent that sends their kid to the Aspen Ranch (or any other school in kind) should do as much research as possible. The biggest question all parents want answered is, "is this the right decision?" I am not going to nitpick about what is "therapy" and what is not. My son got "therapy" at Aspen Ranch. We paid for a therapist to meet with him. Aspen Ranch had a "therapist" on staff that met with him twice a week. I am not a lawyer and I am not going to argue what constitutes a "therapist." I will say that my son got help while at the Aspen Ranch. Was he also suppervised by people that didn't have a positive influence on him--yes. Did he spend time with people that only wanted the best for him---yes. Parents send their kids to places like Aspen Ranch only as a last resort. I am still wrestling whether or not places like this are the best option. I am not sure whether or not I will ever have the answer, but I will say that it doesn't do my family any good to dwell on that. We are moving forward.
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There is obviously a lot of debate here concerning "therapy." I will not join the debate, but I will say that any parent that sends their kid to the Aspen Ranch (or any other school in kind) should do as much research as possible. The biggest question all parents want answered is, "is this the right decision?" I am not going to nitpick about what is "therapy" and what is not. My son got "therapy" at Aspen Ranch. We paid for a therapist to meet with him. Aspen Ranch had a "therapist" on staff that met with him twice a week. I am not a lawyer and I am not going to argue what constitutes a "therapist." I will say that my son got help while at the Aspen Ranch. Was he also supervised by people that didn't have a positive influence on him--yes. Did he spend time with people that only wanted the best for him---yes. Parents send their kids to places like Aspen Ranch only as a last resort. I am still wrestling whether or not places like this are the best option. I am not sure whether or not I will ever have the answer, but I will say that it doesn't do my family any good to dwell on that. We are moving forward.
Thank you very much, Nigel. It seems folks here that have no personal knowledge at all, argue the most. They read reports that I doubt they really understand and give their inept opinions based on their biased views. I don't argue with them either, they are ignorant.
Now!!!!! Can everyone else move on.
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Art therapy
Feminist therapy
Biofeedback therapy
Cognitive therapy
Family therapy
Dream analysis therapy
Psychoanalytical therapy
Transactional analysis therapy
Rational emotive therapy
Behavior therapy
Group therapy
Gestalt therapy
Humanistic therapy
Play therapy
Postmodern therapy
Eye movement desensitization reprocessing therapy
Speech therapy
Preventative therapy
Prophylactic therapy
Abortive therapy
Supportive therapy
Pharmacotherapy
Chemotherapy
Mesotherapy
Gene therapy
Aurotherapy
Chrysotherapy
Hormone therapy
Biotherapy
Virotherapy
Phage therapy
Maggot therapy
Ozontherapy
Speleotherapy
Serotherapy
Hydrotherapy
Electrotherapy
Psychotherapy
Physical therapy
Cryotherapy
Thermotherapy
Radiotherapy
Physiotherapy
Massotherapy
Cymatic therapy
Phototherapy
Magnet therapy
Radiation therapy
……………………………….. Just to name a few and if none of them work then sometimes the best therapy is sitting under a magnolia tree in late spring and watching the sun set….. self therapy?
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Art therapy
Feminist therapy
Biofeedback therapy
Cognitive therapy
Family therapy
Dream analysis therapy
Psychoanalytical therapy
Transactional analysis therapy
Rational emotive therapy
Behavior therapy
Group therapy
Gestalt therapy
Humanistic therapy
Play therapy
Postmodern therapy
Eye movement desensitization reprocessing therapy
Speech therapy
Preventative therapy
Prophylactic therapy
Abortive therapy
Supportive therapy
Pharmacotherapy
Chemotherapy
Mesotherapy
Gene therapy
Aurotherapy
Chrysotherapy
Hormone therapy
Biotherapy
Virotherapy
Phage therapy
Maggot therapy
Ozontherapy
Speleotherapy
Serotherapy
Hydrotherapy
Electrotherapy
Psychotherapy
Physical therapy
Cryotherapy
Thermotherapy
Radiotherapy
Physiotherapy
Massotherapy
Cymatic therapy
Phototherapy
Magnet therapy
Radiation therapy
……………………………….. Just to name a few and if none of them work then sometimes the best therapy is sitting under a magnolia tree in late spring and watching the sun set….. self therapy?
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You forgot one. (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_therapy)
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You forgot one. (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_therapy)
lol... and Equine Therapy.
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and (http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/22/AR2010022203637.html)
(http://http://www.roadtorecoveryprogram.com/images/dolphins.jpg)
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Whooter’s confirmation bias impared his ability to read Thomas c’s link to Attack therapy (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_therapy).
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Whooter’s confirmation bias impared his ability to read Thomas c’s link to Attack therapy (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_therapy).
I think you missed that I quoted it above.
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I was sent to Aspen in the Summer of '08 and didn't return home until the spring of '09. I did not graduate. In fact, I was shipped somewhere else to finish my program days as I proved to be too much for Aspen's unqualified staff to handle. I don't mean that in a spitfire sort of way; I'm not usually a problem unless provoked. But therein lies the problem, we were always being provoked. Not all of Aspen's staff is terrible, but it's hard to find the few decent ones buried under the rubble that was Loa, Utah. I was only belittled to my face on a handful of instances, but it was the way in which we were dealt with that infuriated me.
My very first day at Aspen Ranch was spent on ‘sick bed.’ I was ill due to cocaine withdrawal; that evening a staff called out to me as the ‘bulimic girl.’ Within the first week of my stay at Aspen, I had been forced into bright red suspenders due to my obvious defiance and inability to keep my pants at a respectful place on my waste. Trouble is, Aspen did not have my sized pants when I checked in and I was not allowed a belt due to being a ‘suicide risk.’ Basically, I was humiliated/punished for something I had no control over.
During my stay, we were forced to hall hay and build fences/run-ins for the mustangs out of cedar (I am allergic to both hay and cedar, mind you). I think one of my fondest memories is when all the gold fish in the lake were poisoned (because they were so clearly a nuisance); the water turned purple and hundreds of dead, rotting fish washed up on the bank of said lake. Why would that be a fond memory, you ask? Because, dear friend, we got to pick up those dead fish as punishment one day for being late to an activity – community service, they called it.
They have this beautiful thing called a ‘haircut’ in which you get seated and told everything about yourself that does not meet the standards of those around you. Tell me how being told that you are fat or ugly or a failure, or stupid can be therapeutic?
And school was wonderful, as well. Four to five hours a day of trying to teach yourself geometry out of a packet is what saved me years later when I took the SAT’s, let me tell you.
One day, one of my teammates collapsed and couldn’t breathe. They took her to the ER and it turns out that one of the medications they were forcing her to take had given her blood clots in her lungs. She was away for days. She came back too soon and nearly fainted again that next week. Turns out, her parents had told Aspen that if she was not better by the end of the week, they would be bringing her home and Aspen didn’t like that. No sir, Aspen likes their money coming in steadily so they signed her early release papers and you know what? They had every right to, because when you send your kid to Aspen, you sign over a large percent of your guardianship to them.
Another one of our teammates, who had not been on antipsychotic medication when she came, was forced onto a handful of pills. Turns out, she was allergic to two of them and ended up having a few seizures on the floor of the main room one morning after a nurse accidently overdosed her medication. When she came to, she didn’t know where she was. She kept asking for her mother and, even though she was of level to call her mother (and it was the day in which her level COULD call their parents) they did not let her speak with her parents. She had two more seizures that day and we later found out that her parents were only informed about the very first one. The nurse that gave her too much medication confided in me the next day, saying, “That girl is such a cunt.”
I could go on, but quite frankly I’m getting a migraine just thinking about it. If you want my advice, as someone who has been there, don’t send your child to Aspen ranch.
Do yourself a favor and get the hell out of Aspen Ranch’s money-seeking grasp.
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Nobody should have to go through that and sorry that it caused you a migraine to think of it. However, I appreciate that you posted it.
As someone who takes an interest in the differences and similarities of various programs, I was surprised about the “haircuts”. The overmedicating sounds particularly egregious in the two cases you’ve cited and the senselessness of the humiliations and general indifference seems typical for most programs, the packets for schooling sounds all too familiar as well, and by many euphemisms so are the provocations you mentioned. That degrading feedback routine takes place in other programs and is called by the same name, but I had no idea that any Aspen program called any of their methods haircuts. Interesting.
… I did not graduate. In fact, I was shipped somewhere else to finish my program days…
Which program were you transferred to?
If you want my advice, as someone who has been there, don’t send your child to Aspen ranch. Do yourself a favor and get the hell out of Aspen Ranch’s money-seeking grasp.
Good advice.
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I was sent to Aspen in the Summer of '08 and didn't return home until the spring of '09. I did not graduate. In fact, I was shipped somewhere else to finish my program days as I proved to be too much for Aspen's unqualified staff to handle. I don't mean that in a spitfire sort of way; I'm not usually a problem unless provoked. But therein lies the problem, we were always being provoked. Not all of Aspen's staff is terrible, but it's hard to find the few decent ones buried under the rubble that was Loa, Utah. I was only belittled to my face on a handful of instances, but it was the way in which we were dealt with that infuriated me.
My very first day at Aspen Ranch was spent on ‘sick bed.’ I was ill due to cocaine withdrawal; that evening a staff called out to me as the ‘bulimic girl.’ Within the first week of my stay at Aspen, I had been forced into bright red suspenders due to my obvious defiance and inability to keep my pants at a respectful place on my waste. Trouble is, Aspen did not have my sized pants when I checked in and I was not allowed a belt due to being a ‘suicide risk.’ Basically, I was humiliated/punished for something I had no control over.
During my stay, we were forced to hall hay and build fences/run-ins for the mustangs out of cedar (I am allergic to both hay and cedar, mind you). I think one of my fondest memories is when all the gold fish in the lake were poisoned (because they were so clearly a nuisance); the water turned purple and hundreds of dead, rotting fish washed up on the bank of said lake. Why would that be a fond memory, you ask? Because, dear friend, we got to pick up those dead fish as punishment one day for being late to an activity – community service, they called it.
They have this beautiful thing called a ‘haircut’ in which you get seated and told everything about yourself that does not meet the standards of those around you. Tell me how being told that you are fat or ugly or a failure, or stupid can be therapeutic?
And school was wonderful, as well. Four to five hours a day of trying to teach yourself geometry out of a packet is what saved me years later when I took the SAT’s, let me tell you.
One day, one of my teammates collapsed and couldn’t breathe. They took her to the ER and it turns out that one of the medications they were forcing her to take had given her blood clots in her lungs. She was away for days. She came back too soon and nearly fainted again that next week. Turns out, her parents had told Aspen that if she was not better by the end of the week, they would be bringing her home and Aspen didn’t like that. No sir, Aspen likes their money coming in steadily so they signed her early release papers and you know what? They had every right to, because when you send your kid to Aspen, you sign over a large percent of your guardianship to them.
Another one of our teammates, who had not been on antipsychotic medication when she came, was forced onto a handful of pills. Turns out, she was allergic to two of them and ended up having a few seizures on the floor of the main room one morning after a nurse accidently overdosed her medication. When she came to, she didn’t know where she was. She kept asking for her mother and, even though she was of level to call her mother (and it was the day in which her level COULD call their parents) they did not let her speak with her parents. She had two more seizures that day and we later found out that her parents were only informed about the very first one. The nurse that gave her too much medication confided in me the next day, saying, “That girl is such a cunt.”
I could go on, but quite frankly I’m getting a migraine just thinking about it. If you want my advice, as someone who has been there, don’t send your child to Aspen ranch.
Do yourself a favor and get the hell out of Aspen Ranch’s money-seeking grasp.
Aspen Ranch's apparent SOP regarding medication sounds like a nightmare! How prevalent were these sorts of incidents?
Also, how did the goldfish get poisoned? Could it have been due to... the dumping of expired meds? :D
(Sorry, couldn't resist. But I'm still curious about the goldfish.)
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My wife just got back from "family workshops" at The Aspen Ranch. The first day was spent in a talk by Foster Cline (the author of "Parenting Teens with Love and Logic"). My wife came away feeling that it was time well spent. She also went to some breakout workshops that dealt with "teen issues." The next day was more of the same, and then all the kids came and had dinner with all the parents. My wife loved seeing our son, but also enjoyed getting to know some of the other families. The next day was spent meeting my son's teachers and therapist. My wife thought that this was a very productive day and that my son came away having a better picture of how he was doing in his classes and also what he needed to do to improve. They then had an afternoon off and ended by going out to dinner in Bicknell.
All in all, my wife is very glad she went, but it was an emotional week for her. My son desperately wants to come home. He really feels that he has turned the corner and that he is ready to come home. I talked to him over the phone and told him that I am proud of what he has accomplished and that I am evaluating everything and I want to make sure that when I do bring him home that it is the right time and that he is set up to succeed. He seemed OK with all of this but he wanted to make sure that I was "actively" thinking about it (I assured him I was).
My wife had plenty of free time with my son and she gave him plenty of opportunity (by asking questions) to let her know how things are at the ranch. His main complaints are that it is too structured for him and that there is no time that he can be alone. He wants to be back in his room (and home) where he can make his own decisions and have some privacy.
I go out for a 3 day visit over Thanksgiving (my son will be able to leave the ranch for the whole day), so I will have plenty of time to evaluate how he is doing. I will report back.
Sorry I didn't catch this earlier, Nigel... I'm hoping you still check in from time to time...
Did I read you correctly above? I.e., that Foster Cline came to Aspen Ranch to give a talk or workshop on parenting? What was the talk about?
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Did I read you correctly above? I.e., that Foster Cline came to Aspen Ranch to give a talk or workshop on parenting? What was the talk about?
You read correctly. We were given his book and asked to read it before we came to the workshop. My wife went to the workshop and reported back that she thought it was very informative and well run. If I remember correctly, she said that he lectured and then they had breakout sessions where they discussed the book. The kids joined these discussions on the second day of the workshop.
And for those interested, an update on my son: He graduated high school and is in the process of moving into an apartment and he starts community college next week. He is a very bright young man that chooses not to put too much effort into school, but he has stated that he is ready to start taking things more seriously (only time will tell). When I told him that Aspen Ranch was closing, he had very mixed feelings. His first thought was "that's great, now no other kids will have to go through what I did." About a week later he told me that he was a little sad that it had closed because there were kids and teachers/counselors there that he did like and that he was hoping to go back one day and visit. All in all, he is doing better, but still has a ways to go(don't we all).
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Did I read you correctly above? I.e., that Foster Cline came to Aspen Ranch to give a talk or workshop on parenting? What was the talk about?
You read correctly. We were given his book and asked to read it before we came to the workshop. My wife went to the workshop and reported back that she thought it was very informative and well run. If I remember correctly, she said that he lectured and then they had breakout sessions where they discussed the book. The kids joined these discussions on the second day of the workshop.
And for those interested, an update on my son: He graduated high school and is in the process of moving into an apartment and he starts community college next week. He is a very bright young man that chooses not to put too much effort into school, but he has stated that he is ready to start taking things more seriously (only time will tell). When I told him that Aspen Ranch was closing, he had very mixed feelings. His first thought was "that's great, now no other kids will have to go through what I did." About a week later he told me that he was a little sad that it had closed because there were kids and teachers/counselors there that he did like and that he was hoping to go back one day and visit. All in all, he is doing better, but still has a ways to go(don't we all).
Ha,Ha,Ha.
...
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Did I read you correctly above? I.e., that Foster Cline came to Aspen Ranch to give a talk or workshop on parenting? What was the talk about?
You read correctly. We were given his book and asked to read it before we came to the workshop. My wife went to the workshop and reported back that she thought it was very informative and well run. If I remember correctly, she said that he lectured and then they had breakout sessions where they discussed the book. The kids joined these discussions on the second day of the workshop.
And for those interested, an update on my son: He graduated high school and is in the process of moving into an apartment and he starts community college next week. He is a very bright young man that chooses not to put too much effort into school, but he has stated that he is ready to start taking things more seriously (only time will tell). When I told him that Aspen Ranch was closing, he had very mixed feelings. His first thought was "that's great, now no other kids will have to go through what I did." About a week later he told me that he was a little sad that it had closed because there were kids and teachers/counselors there that he did like and that he was hoping to go back one day and visit. All in all, he is doing better, but still has a ways to go(don't we all).
I'm glad to hear that your son is doing better, Nigel. All in all, it sounds like the pace is a lot more realistic (and based in reality) than that promised by most programs. Thanks for sharing that, along with your son's dichotomous reaction to the closure of Aspen Ranch. Those kinds of mixed feelings only make us human.
Some posts about Foster Cline, starting here (http://http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26029&p=403997#p403869). Do you have any idea how frequently he give talks on the TTI circuit?
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Some posts about Foster Cline, starting here. Do you have any idea how frequently he give talks on the TTI circuit?
No, I'm not really sure, Ursus.
NIGEL
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Some posts about Foster Cline, starting here. Do you have any idea how frequently he give talks on the TTI circuit?
No, I'm not really sure, Ursus.
NIGEL
Whooter,
Thanks for answering for me. I couldn't have said it better.
NIGEL
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Some posts about Foster Cline, starting here. Do you have any idea how frequently he give talks on the TTI circuit?
No, I'm not really sure, Ursus.
NIGEL
Whooter,
Thanks for answering for me. I couldn't have said it better.
NIGEL
No worries, Nigel. I never suspected you of being Whooter. :D