Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: TheWho on February 18, 2008, 07:30:56 AM
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Continued from this thread: (http://http://fornits.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=c6kkgqoiumflu44oj2aqaqi093&topic=25306.msg308814#msg308814)
Lets recap on our wish list:
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents
#3 A fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc. depending on the school/program.
#4 -Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care.
#5-reporting sexual and other abuse to the proper authorities (all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured).
#6-The ability for the children to earn high school diplomas and take the PSAT and SAT's.
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Make it Simple wrote:
Name faciliities that meets the first five and we can go on.
Like I mentioned in a previous post, we need to somehow get our hands on the schools procedures to see which of the items each school meets. Ex-staff may be able to help us. While we are waiting lets move forward.
Provide a reference to any evidence statistic or study that suggests that wilderness programs help with any illness in the dsm.
It should be easy
I would like to finish with the TBS list first, But I think it would be worth our time to develop one for wilderness also, good point.
Otherwise you are defending something that appears to be a figment of your imagination.
Well that figment of my imagination did a lot to help my daughter as well as 1,000's of others.
In teh absence of specifics you are making statements that are the equivalent of telling us that it is better to be rich and healthy then it is to be poor ans sick.
Well, who ever said that was on the mark. It is also better to be a healthy, happy and well adjusted teenager than a sick, unhappy, at-risk teenager.
This is simple who-
You go-don't quit now.
Yes it is. One approach I was thinking of is we should develop this list up to 10 items which would define the ideal TBS (we should limit it to 10, what do you think?) , put them in order of importance and then try to rate TBS’s as they come up (for those items we know about for each school). If we do our job here correctly (and raise the bar) there shouldn’t be any TBS’s which meet all our demands on the wish list… it should be something for all of them to strive for.
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sorry who
When did we decide that we were distinguishing between wilderness programs and schools. Not me. I keeo calling tehm facilities because the words you use to descrie one part of them is a loaded word.
YOu just changed the rules.
If we were only talking about schools we would have a different list that started with the faculty of the schools and consinued with who accredited them, the licensed teacher to student ratio, and we would not have had thelength of stay item - we would have talked about graduation rates but I think you know that.
You are being dishonest, who
I am waiting who! It is tiem for the list, statistics etc.
and while we are talking about dishonest lets see what you have done with the list.
I included an item that said - all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured.
I put it in because the reporting of child abuse should be a core value. It should be a core value because while you talk about helping your daughter ( an anecdote witha happy ending) I know of too many cases in which kids how were abused at home and developed problems as a result, primarily with their families. They were ,then sent to facilities where there real diagnosis- whatever it was called- was that they were there as a result of the bad choices they made and would be helped by making good choices at the facility and as they made good choices that showed compliance they owuld gradually get more privileges.- (does that sound familiar and therapeutic -who?).
That is an awful thing to do to a kid that has been abused. It doesn't lead to healing, and stabilization and all the other words you throw in because they sound medical but are just words-
Once you accept that what I have described happens and happens much too often to be acceptable then the weeding out of those kids and the identification and prosecution of the perpetrators has to be a core value that the facility educates their staff of adolescents sent away who sever ties with their parents on their 18th birthday out of anger or the percentage of kids that are cut off by their families because the facility told them they should (having rejected the facilities help) and you apparently can't tell me the number of families that feel helped and stabilized.
So here's my question who
Where are the studies, statistics, etc that support the notion that what you call wildeness therapy cures any dsm illness
What are the facilities that follow the list we made so far?.
and one more thing who- please don't change the subject at the top so that it implies that there is an ideal tbs because that is dishonest too. let's agree to have us both use the word facility to describe these places because that does not incude a value judgment about them. hat sounds fair doesn't it who?
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sorry who
Dont appologize, lets take it slower, there is plenty of time.
When did we decide that we were distinguishing between wilderness programs and schools. Not me. I keeo calling tehm facilities because the words you use to descrie one part of them is a loaded word.
YOu just changed the rules.
If we were only talking about schools we would have a different list that started with the faculty of the schools and consinued with who accredited them, the licensed teacher to student ratio, and we would not have had thelength of stay item - we would have talked about graduation rates but I think you know that.
You are being dishonest, who
I was under the impression we were speaking about TBS’s.. remember? We compared them to nursing homes and you didn’t like the word (Therapeutic) in front of boarding schools because you felt it was misleading. If I thought you wanted to include wilderness I would have altered the list.
So at this point we can go back and start over and develop a list that satisfies both wilderness and TBS’s or we can continue and finish the TBS portion.
I am waiting who! It is tiem for the list, statistics etc.
Whoa!! Slow down MIS. Lets get the list(s) done first.
and while we are talking about dishonest lets see what you have done with the list.
I included an item that said - all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured.
I put it in because the reporting of child abuse should be a core value.
Must have lost it when I moved it over.. I added it back in (see initial post).
It should be a core value because while you talk about helping your daughter ( an anecdote witha happy ending) I know of too many cases in which kids how were abused at home and developed problems as a result, primarily with their families. They were ,then sent to facilities where there real diagnosis- whatever it was called- was that they were there as a result of the bad choices they made and would be helped by making good choices at the facility and as they made good choices that showed compliance they owuld gradually get more privileges.- (does that sound familiar and therapeutic -who?).
That is an awful thing to do to a kid that has been abused. It doesn't lead to healing, and stabilization and all the other words you throw in because they sound medical but are just words-
Once you accept that what I have described happens and happens much too often to be acceptable then the weeding out of those kids and the identification and prosecution of the perpetrators has to be a core value that the facility educates their staff of adolescents sent away who sever ties with their parents on their 18th birthday out of anger or the percentage of kids that are cut off by their families because the facility told them they should (having rejected the facilities help) and you apparently can't tell me the number of families that feel helped and stabilized.
We can add items to our list which will help alleviate your (our) concern about the above problems.
TBS’s should be a safe haven for these children and work towards rebuilding their self esteem and strengthening the family ties.
So here's my question who
Where are the studies, statistics, etc that support the notion that what you call wildeness therapy cures any dsm illness
What are the facilities that follow the list we made so far?.
and one more thing who- please don't change the subject at the top so that it implies that there is an ideal tbs because that is dishonest too. let's agree to have us both use the word facility to describe these places because that does not incude a value judgment about them. hat sounds fair doesn't it who?
This didn’t start out as a wilderness discussion, go back and read from the beginning. Lets finish the TBS list and then move on to wilderness (don’t sweat it we can do both)…… in the mean time if there are any staff that are reading this they may be able to help with the information we need to compare schools to our list.
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sorry who- it doesn't work like that!
The list
The evidence, statistics etc.
you go
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Like I said we cant define a list until we know what each schools procedures are... If you have any of this information feel free to contribute (or anyone for that matter)
How about for number 7. The school will provide periodic progress reports on how the child is doing in the program versus the initial plan.
This will allow the parent and child to get a better view on how far along they have progressed and what areas they are struggling with and/or areas that need more attention.
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sorry who
You are not playing fair and I learned a long time ago not to play with cheaters.
Because you are not being honest I am leaving but I will check back next sunday in the morning and see if you have provided the information that will allow a meaningful discussion and not just provide you with a platform. The privilege you get is to have this back and forth but you have to earn it who by playing fair who. I will give you another chance in a week. Let's see if we can modify your behavior.
On a personal note this has been instructive for me. It strengthens my resolve.
And one more thing- Congratulations Ginger. Who would have thought that you would be so successful that someone like who would be hired to do what he does here? Amazing
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sorry who
You are not playing fair and I learned a long time ago not to play with cheaters.
I am sorry if you feel I have cheated. Our entire discussion has been documented here for all to see. I don’t see where there has been any dishonesty on my part. I thought we have agreed up until item number 6, what happened?
Because you are not being honest I am leaving but I will check back next sunday in the morning and see if you have provided the information that will allow a meaningful discussion and not just provide you with a platform. The privilege you get is to have this back and forth but you have to earn it who by playing fair who. I will give you another chance in a week. Let's see if we can modify your behavior.
Behavior Mod!! See it can be a good thing and it is part of everyday life. Many here perceive it as a negative. You may check back in a week but there will be no lists of schools, statistics provided by me unless someone provides them to me via email or posts them here on the forum. If I do get them I will post them here on this thread for easy access.
On a personal note this has been instructive for me. It strengthens my resolve.
I think it has been a good exercise also……during your week you can maybe think ahead to start coming up with items you think we can put together to strengthen the wilderness industry. I will move forward and finish this up on my own… thanks for your help MIS
And one more thing- Congratulations Ginger. Who would have thought that you would be so successful that someone like who would be hired to do what he does here? Amazing
I dont know Ginger well but if she were to hire anyone I know it would be someone who is less pro-program. I think I would be the last one on her list of hires.
Stay safe and see you next week, MIS.
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Dont appologize, lets take it slower, there is plenty of time.
This is also part of why everyone thinks you're such an asshole. "Don't apologize" (eye roll). You know damn well he wasn't apologizing. He was referring to how full of shit your answers are. You come off as so condescending and holier than thou that we can't think anything but that you're an ass.
Name the programs you consider to be safe and effective for kids and the reasons why they are any different from the rest. Your failure to be able to do so proves that not only are you an ass, but that you're a lying industry shill.
How 'bout ASR? Are they some of the "good" programs you speak of?
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Dont appologize, lets take it slower, there is plenty of time.
This is also part of why everyone thinks you're such an asshole. "Don't apologize" (eye roll). You know damn well he wasn't apologizing. He was referring to how full of shit your answers are. You come off as so condescending and holier than thou that we can't think anything but that you're an ass.
Name the programs you consider to be safe and effective for kids and the reasons why they are any different from the rest. Your failure to be able to do so proves that not only are you an ass, but that you're a lying industry shill.
How 'bout ASR? Are they some of the "good" programs you speak of?
MIS was just as rude to me as I was to her/him. You only see one side of it. This was never about listing schools. If you go back to the beginning it was about listing requirements we felt would make an ideal TBS. MIS started changing the course and asking for a list of schools that met the items we were listing… which of course we all know is impossible without having knowledge of the schools working procedures.. it would all be speculation.
If you read your own post, you come across arrogant and rude yourself and as far as I know we have never spoken before which shows a lack of character on your part. If you would like to contribute to the conversation you are more than welcome but let’s keep the personal comments to yourself.
As far as ASR goes, I would say they are a good school. I tried several times in the past to get a list of good and bad schools but no one was interested or that they felt all schools were bad (black and white mentality) so this is not an area which interests many here on fornits.
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Bullshit. You won't list them because you know they'd all FAIL miserably. You know they'd get torn apart here and since you are an industry shill, you won't risk that.
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Bullshit. You won't list them because you know they'd all FAIL miserably. You know they'd get torn apart here and since you are an industry shill, you won't risk that.
When we are done with the list my expectations would be that no TBS would meet all the requirements. If the list is in fact "Ideal" then it should be a benchmark of a sort for all TBS's to strive towards (in our opinions), with the bar raised high.
Think of it as trying to design the "ideal" car... i.e. getting 100 miles to the gallon, 500 horsepower etc... it is sort of a wish list which may or may not be attainable but is a representative snapshot of what customers may want. Just because no cars meet the present "ideal" doesnt mean they are not good. The same with this list we are coming up with....
Why does everything outside of trashing programs make everyone so angry... what is wrong with a thread that is a little proactive?
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Bullshit. You won't list them because you know they'd all FAIL miserably. You know they'd get torn apart here and since you are an industry shill, you won't risk that.
When we are done with the list my expectations would be that no TBS would meet all the requirements.
Well, duh!
Think of it as trying to design the "ideal" car... i.e.
No. I hate those analogies.
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MIS was just as rude to me as I was to her/him. You only see one side of it. This was never about listing schools.
No, they weren't. I've been watching since MIS' first post.
If you go back to the beginning it was about listing requirements we felt would make an ideal TBS. MIS started changing the course and asking for a list of schools that met the items we were listing… which of course we all know is impossible without having knowledge of the schools working procedures.. it would all be speculation.
Except for the ones that you consider to be good. You keep saying you have personal knowledge of *good* schools. If you do, in fact, then LIST THEM. If not, then STFU.
If you read your own post, you come across arrogant and rude yourself and as far as I know we have never spoken before which shows a lack of character on your part. If you would like to contribute to the conversation you are more than welcome but let’s keep the personal comments to yourself.
Oh fuck off you sanctimonious piece of shit. I'll make all the personal comments about you that I care to.
As far as ASR goes, I would say they are a good school. I tried several times in the past to get a list of good and bad schools but no one was interested or that they felt all schools were bad (black and white mentality) so this is not an area which interests many here on fornits.
Wait, up there you said that a list would be pointless, but here you say that you've "tried several times in the past to get a list of good and bad schools". Make up your mind moron.
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MIS was just as rude a thewho
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I disagree.
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the changes psy made to this forum have only empowered thewho and driven off the other posters. way to go psy!!
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MIS was just as rude a thewho
I can't see thespew's posts, he's on my ignore list, but I've been reading MIS's posts and that person has been anything but "rude". MIS has been patient, and it looks like every effort was made to keep things civil. I'm sure theSpew accused MIS of "not seeing the big picture", etc., but it seems theSpew was bested by someone with the patience and tenacity to prod him in a straight line. MIS is a person with a great deal of knowledge about the "binnis" end of the industry that theSpew is so fond of, and also knows what a sham it is.
Long ago, I asked theSpew to name a program he knew to be abusive, and he named one of Cartisano's long-defunct Samoan hell-holes and TB. Believe me, theSpew knows his programs well, and he knows none of them will fare well under close scrutiny.
I applaud you, MIS, you flummoxed theSpew by keeping your cool and insisting he stay focused on specifics instead of generalities, and he blew apart. You've set a precedent for debating theSpew effectively.
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Zen has always wanted to protect himself from the world. When he was a little boy he would put his hands over his ears and sing Oh Susanna when I was sexually abusing his sister.
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MIS was just as rude a thewho
I can't see thespew's posts, he's on my ignore list, but I've been reading MIS's posts and that person has been anything but "rude". MIS has been patient, and it looks like every effort was made to keep things civil. I'm sure theSpew accused MIS of "not seeing the big picture", etc., but it seems theSpew was bested by someone with the patience and tenacity to prod him in a straight line. MIS is a person with a great deal of knowledge about the "binnis" end of the industry that theSpew is so fond of, and also knows what a sham it is.
Long ago, I asked theSpew to name a program he knew to be abusive, and he named one of Cartisano's long-defunct Samoan hell-holes and TB. Believe me, theSpew knows his programs well, and he knows none of them will fare well under close scrutiny.
I applaud you, MIS, you flummoxed theSpew by keeping your cool and insisting he stay focused on specifics instead of generalities, and he blew apart. You've set a precedent for debating theSpew effectively.
MIS, listen to Zen.... don't take your ball and run home, you are one of the few who can stay focused on a project and work towards a goal. The final product should fair to be a good standard for the industry. We got up to # 6 and I have a proposal for #7 (which I posted). By next Sunday I should be completed and working on the Wilderness list. I will leave the door ajar awaiting your input but I must move forward... we can always adjust these retroactively if you change your mind.
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Zen has always wanted to protect himself from the world. When he was a little boy he would put his hands over his ears and sing Oh Susanna when I was sexually abusing his sister.
No I didn't - you made me take pictures, remember?
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MIS, listen to Zen.... don't take your ball and run home, you are one of the few who can stay focused on a project and work towards a goal. The final product should fair to be a good standard for the industry. We got up to # 6 and I have a proposal for #7 (which I posted).
Who is this "we" you speak of?
By next Sunday I should be completed and working on the Wilderness list.
Why would there be a need for a different list? Any facility that is part of the TTI should be held to the same standards.
I will leave the door ajar awaiting your input but I must move forward... we can always adjust these retroactively if you change your mind.
YOU'll leave the door open??? Who the fuck put you in charge of this?
We? What the hell are you talking about?
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I applaud you, MIS, you flummoxed theSpew by keeping your cool and insisting he stay focused on specifics instead of generalities . . . You've set a precedent for debating theSpew effectively.
I agree.
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Who is this "we" you speak of?
If you read from the beginning there was a poster who called themself ” Make it Simple”. We were working on putting a list together of requirements that we felt a TBS should have to live by (A standard if you will). So the “we” I speak of is MIS and myself.
Why would there be a need for a different list? Any facility that is part of the TTI should be held to the same standards.
Personally (not speaking for MIS) I think the lists should be separate ..... for one I don’t think the stay should be the same… 16 months in wilderness is a little different than 16 months in a boarding school and also wilderness may attract a slightly different clientele then TBS’s although they overlap they are not completely the same.
In short this is some of my thinking.
YOU'll leave the door open??? Who the fuck put you in charge of this?
We? What the hell are you talking about?
You should try to calm down a little. There were 2 of us working on this and now there is one… I didn’t choose to go solo but I will carry the ball alone until next Sunday when MIS returns (and longer if needed)… it may help to alleviate some of your confusion by going back and reading from the beginning. I provided a bridge link to take you back there at the top of page 1. Hope that helps.
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If you read from the beginning there was a poster who called themself ” Make it Simple”. We were working on putting a list together of requirements that we felt a TBS should have to live by (A standard if you will). So the “we” I speak of is MIS and myself.
I did and you're wrong. You are not a part of US. You never will be no matter how many times you write the word WE.
Personally (not speaking for MIS) I think the lists should be separate ..... for one I don’t think the stay should be the same… 16 months in wilderness is a little different than 16 months in a boarding school and also wilderness may attract a slightly different clientele then TBS’s although they overlap they are not completely the same.
Kids' rights are the same no matter where they are.
You should try to calm down a little.
You should shut the fuck up and realise that its a bad idea to tell survivors what they should or shouldn't do. We had enough of that bullshit inside.
There were 2 of us working on this and now there is one… I didn’t choose to go solo but I will carry the ball alone until next Sunday when MIS returns (and longer if needed)… it may help to alleviate some of your confusion by going back and reading from the beginning. I provided a bridge link to take you back there at the top of page 1. Hope that helps.
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Nope. Not at all. I didn't require any help idiot. I'm not confused. I know exactly what you're trying to do.
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I did and you're wrong. You are not a part of US. You never will be no matter how many times you write the word WE.
So you conclude that myself and MIS do not constitute the labeling of “we”.. that is interesting.
Kids' rights are the same no matter where they are.
If we were merely generalizing I would agree with you but we were constructing a list of requirements specific to TBS’s and in my opinion if we took this list and then just randomly applied it to another type of program it would not fit well for the reasons given in my previous post. Give it some thought I think you might agree.
You should shut the fuck up and realise that its a bad idea to tell survivors what they should or shouldn't do. We had enough of that bullshit inside.
You should really try to get a handle on your anger and relax, doesn’t matter to me if you are a survivor or a child who benefitted from a TBS or wilderness or a parent. It doesn’t do anyone any good to get riled up.. we are trying to have a discussion.
Nope. Not at all. I didn't require any help idiot. I'm not confused. I know exactly what you're trying to do.
I hear you telling me that but by what you have posted it is obvious you have not gone back to read the previous posts and therefore do not understand what we are trying to work on.
Take a breather, read thru it and then try to contribute if you like. If you are really a survivor you may have some input on this thread if you are not then maybe your intention is designed to just disrupt or troll and if this is the case have fun the rest of us will get past it.
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Bunch a bullshit, deflecting nonsense.
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(http://www.edwardmitterrand.com/artists/Slow%20Burn/Images/Phelan_FuckYou_72dpi_20cm.jpg)
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Lets recap on our wish list:
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents
#3 A fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc. depending on the school/program.
#4 -Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care.
#5-reporting sexual and other abuse to the proper authorities (all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured).
#6-The ability for the children to earn high school diplomas and take the PSAT and SAT's.
#7-- ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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The one on fire*.
*this is known as "humor", and not to be taken as some sort of internet terrorism.
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There is no evidence that any of these facilities have therapeutic benefit. They exist solely to make money for their owners. Name a program whose owners are scams and con artists. It can't be done.
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There is no evidence that any of these facilities have therapeutic benefit. They exist solely to make money for their owners. Name a program whose owners are scams and con artists. It can't be done.
There are many advantages to treatment in a residential facility. As Wong (1999, p. 42) reports, “Adolescents with long-standing and intense aggressive, destructive, and disruptive behavior are not good candidates for short-term, outpatient, or in-home treatment. Simply put, youth in this state do not participate in or cooperate with therapy. Some type of extended residential or alternative living situation is probably necessary to provide a secure and controlled environment in which to instigate behavior change.” Inpatient care can provide immediate help in a crisis situation, and can remove the client from dangerous situations (Barker, 1974). More so than the average outpatient program, residential facilities offer more opportunities for therapeutic contact, more monitoring of dangerous and disturbing behaviors, and a more direct evaluation of aftercare options. Assessments that are hard to do as an outpatient can be done at these facilities, and at multiple intervals, and hence the reactions to medication and other interventions can be watched particularly closely.
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There is no evidence that any of these facilities have therapeutic benefit. They exist solely to make money for their owners. Name a program whose owners are scams and con artists. It can't be done.
There are many advantages to treatment in a residential facility.
Well, we're going to need more than your word on that. As soon as you can cite your sources for the EVIDENCE BASED, PEER REVIEWED, LONG TERM, CLINICAL STUDIES that Wong used to prove any of that, maybe we can discuss it.
And again.......those who are claiming 'results' and 'success' bear the burden of proof!!!!! Sheeeeesh. Y'all have had over 4 decades. You'd think you could come up with at least ONE by now, no?
:ftard:
Sorry for the drive by posting guys. Busy busy busy. Y'all have a good night! :rasta:
Annie
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There is no evidence that any of these facilities have therapeutic benefit. They exist solely to make money for their owners. Name a program whose owners are scams and con artists. It can't be done.
I know!!! You'd think by now they'd come up with at least something. But nope. Nada, zip, zilch, zero.
'Tards.
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There is no evidence that any of these facilities have therapeutic benefit. They exist solely to make money for their owners. Name a program whose owners are scams and con artists. It can't be done.
There are many advantages to treatment in a residential facility.
Well, we're going to need more than your word on that. As soon as you can cite your sources for the EVIDENCE BASED, PEER REVIEWED, LONG TERM, CLINICAL STUDIES that Wong used to prove any of that, maybe we can discuss it.
And again.......those who are claiming 'results' and 'success' bear the burden of proof!!!!! Sheeeeesh. Y'all have had over 4 decades. You'd think you could come up with at least ONE by now, no?
:ftard:
Sorry for the drive by posting guys. Busy busy busy. Y'all have a good night! :rasta:
Annie
Anne Boleyn... Here ya go. This study was performed in 2002:
Teatment Outcome Study (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
and there was an author (pulitzer prize) who followed a group of kids through the program for 16 months and wrote a book on it.
Click here for link (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=updatesmenu.txt&blog=1)
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Now where are your studies that state these places are ineffective or abusive?
Come on guys... all this talk and no links.... try to make it a study performed this century though I wont be too picky.
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Now where are your studies that state these places are ineffective or abusive?
Come on guys... all this talk and no links.... try to make it a study performed this century though I wont be too picky.
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you don't have them bookmarked? they've been provided to you numerous times.
and.... if the best of the best (Aspen- Excel)
http://fornits.com/smf/http://www.forni ... 87#p308587 (http://fornits.com/smf/http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=308587#p308587)
considers illegal arrest and allowing adult jail inmates to smear vasoline on a kids ass as good 'therapy', what are the worse of the worse doing?
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Here ya go. This study was performed in 2002:
Teatment Outcome Study (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
Once again. A paper written by a grad student DOES NOT A PEER REVIEWED, LONG TERM, EVIDENCE BASED, CLINICAL RESEARCH MAKE!!! C'mon, you're not really this stupid are you?
and there was an author (pulitzer prize) who followed a group of kids through the program for 16 months and wrote a book on it.
Click here for link (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=updatesmenu.txt&blog=1)
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And that one is written by Dave Marcus, a PAID INDUSTRY CONSULTANT.
And again for the slow and stupid. The burden of proof falls upon those claiming success!!!!!!! But I have posted them many times before. Who just dismisses them as not related to the TBS industry if the studies use terms like RTC or Bootcamp. I'm late for a date with my long lost, travelling husband so if someone else wants to pull those up, feel free. (Deb probably has them relatively handy if someone wants to speak with her). If not, I'll do it later.
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tsk,tsk, Anne Boleyn lets not loose your head.
I provided a study and a Pulitzer prized author... you may think you can debunk them with your red ink, but they show the industry to be effective.
Lets try this again... show us the type of study you mean? Provide us a study that shows this industry to be ineffective or abusive. If you expect others to provide evidence then you need to be the one to start.
This study was performed in 2002:
Teatment Outcome Study (http://http://groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf)
Click here for link to Dave Marcus (http://http://www.davemarcus.com/content.php?sub=updatesmenu.txt&blog=1)
The truth is there are plenty of studies out there but you will not see a single one talked about on fornits becasue they all show TBS's to have a positive impact on childen at risk. Anne and the others know that. This is why they get so pissed when I put one up here.
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The following is the summary submitted to the APA Press Office to announce our symposium presentation at the 2006 Convention of the American Psychological Association in New Orleans:
****************************************************************************
Exploitation of Youth & Families: Perspectives on Unregulated Residential Treatment
Allison Pinto, Ph.D.
Monica Epstein, Ph.D.
Paul Lewis, B.B.A.
Kathryn Whitehead, B.A.
August 12, 2006
APA Convention 2006
On August 10, 2006, the American Psychological Association issued a statement reaffirming its unequivocal position against torture and abuse. APA President Gerald P. Koocher, Ph.D., stated, “Our intention is to empower and encourage members to do everything they can to prevent violations of basic human rights – at Guantanamo Bay or anywhere else they may occur. It is not enough for us to express outrage or to codify acceptable practices. As psychologists, we must use every means at our disposal to prevent abuse and other forms of cruel or degrading treatment (APA Press Release, August 10, 2006).”
This presentation focuses on mistreatment, abuse and human rights violations that youth have been experiencing in unregulated residential treatment facilities in states across the U.S., and calls for psychologists to actively respond in order to safeguard and protect youth and their families from mistreatment at the hands of U.S. owned and operated companies and programs.
To place the current concerns in context: Note that it is now illegal to use any of the following practices with regard to the treatment of U.S. detainees in Guantanamo Bay and other facilities:
o Use of phobias & fears to induce stress
o Physical training (forced calisthenics)
o Exposure to cold weather
o Sleep Deprivation
o Nutritional Deprivation
o Slapping face or stomach
o Stress positions (e.g. prolonged standing)
o Isolation greater than 30 days
o Forced Labor
o Denial of Use of Bathroom
However, each of these practices is being used to “modify the behavior” of U.S. adolescents in unregulated, private residential facilities, in the name of “therapeutic” schooling and programming.
Dr. Monica Epstein will provide an overview of the phenomena of unregulated residential treatment for youth. She will describe the private industry of residential programs that has flourished over the past 10-15 years, claiming to meet the needs of children with emotional and behavioral problems and their families. Marketing themselves as therapeutic boarding schools, emotional growth programs, and wilderness programs, among other labels, these programs offer an “innovative alternative” to families in crisis. In many states, these programs are not required to meet state licensing requirements for the residential mental health care they provide because they are not publicly funded or because they self-identify as schools rather than mental health treatment programs.
Highly disturbing reports have been published in the public media describing harsh discipline, inappropriate seclusion and restraint, substandard psychotherapeutic interventions conducted by unqualified staff, medical and nutritional neglect, and rights violations.
Kathryn Whitehead, B.A., will provide a first-hand account of her experience as an adolescent who attended an unregulated residential facility, where she experienced forced labor, exposure to extreme environmental conditions, mandatory exercise, humiliation, and patient as well as human rights violations. She will also share quotes illustrating the experiences of other youth who have recently responded to an online survey conducted by Allison Pinto, Ph.D., Whitehead, and colleagues at the University of South Florida to clarify the experience of adolescence in residential facilities. Youth experiences, in their own words, include:
o They “scared me into submission… I felt I was entering a teen prison…”
o “…had to get naked and squat while turning around in circles…”
o “I was made to get naked and humiliated- do jumping jacks…”
o “They didn’t talk to me like a human or try to comfort me as I cried…”
o “Physical activity was endless…it was meant to break us…”
o “Sleep deprivation in the longer 3-5 day workshops accompanied by very cold room temp. and carefully chosen music played at high volumes, was at times agonizing…”
o Newer students “were denied sleep until the older students were satisfied with the newcomers ‘progress’ each evening…”
o “Girls peed themselves…”
o “Many times I was hungry after I ate and couldn’t get more food…”
o “They treated us like we had no rights…we had no locks on the bathroom…staff would watch us dress, shower and sometimes even use the toilet…”
o “Some people were in isolation for months, lying on their stomach eating out of a bowl…”
o “The room was 7×7 feet, it was always cold…I remember screaming a lot…when I wasn’t, I would curl up in a ball in the corner and sing to myself…”
o “I was sexually abused while in restraints…”
o “I was pepper sprayed…”
o “My therapist stood behind me and whispered things about my rape, while playing the song I was raped to, for 4 consecutive groups sessions…”
o “At times we were forced to eat our food in the ‘push up position’ like dogs…”
o “I broke my finger while in the program and was not allowed to go to the doctor…”
o “I tried telling my parents what actually going on at that place, I was severely disciplined and my parents were told I was being manipulative…I was only telling the truth”
o “I still wake up with nightmares…”
Paul Lewis, B.B.S., will provide a first-hand account of his family’s experience with unregulated residential programming. The Lewis’ sent their 14-year-old son to a wilderness program where his rights were denied and he was mistreated, leading to his death. Mr. Lewis will explain that the intent in enrolling his son was to help improve his self esteem, learn strategies to deal with his depression and earn the necessary credits to complete 8th grade. Once enrolled, his son was not allowed to communicate with his parents, and when his parents called each day to inquire about how he was doing, they were told he was fine and assured he would be safe. They only found out later that this was not the case. On the sixth day in the program the Lewis’ son slashed his arm four times with a program supplied pocketknife; he then approached the adults in charge and told them, “Take this away from me before I hurt myself any more, I can’t take it any more. I want to call my Mom and I want to go home”. The next day the head therapist, who was not trained as a therapist, decided their son was just trying to manipulate them to get out of the program and go home, so he ignored their son’s cry for help. That night, their son hung himself only several feet from his makeshift campsite.
Allison Pinto, Ph.D. will present preliminary findings from an online survey of young adults who participated in residential programs as adolescents. She will report findings based on information from the 162 respondents who described their experience in 36 programs in 17 states labeled as therapeutic boarding schools, emotional growth academies, and behavior modification programs (as opposed to licensed residential treatment centers), in which they had no opportunity to contact an advocate if they had concerns or complaints while attending the program. Preliminary findings reveal that “patient” rights violations, inhumane treatment and abuse were reported by many youth.
With regard to “patient” rights violations, 120 youth reported that their rights were never described to them upon admission, 125 reported that their calls were monitored, 123 had letters monitored, and 114 indicated their conversations or letters were filtered or interrupted.
In terms of the violations of patients’ rights to least restrictive intervention, 82 experienced seclusion and 42 experienced restraint, and these interventions were often prompted not only by evidence of danger to self or others, but rather breaking a program rule (N = 90), saying something disrespectful (N = 68), cursing (N = 62), making a face (N = 42), or talking out of turn (N = 40).
Program practices reflective of inhumane treatment were reported by many youth, in terms of forced labor (N = 92), denial of access to bathrooms (N = 87), scare tactics (N = 84), excessive exercise (N = 75), exposure to elements — extreme heat or cold (N = 74), sleep deprivation (N = 61), nutritional deprivation (N = 51), and physical punishment (N = 36).
Furthermore, 76 individuals reported that they were emotionally, physically or sexually abused by the staff.
In response to participation in residential programming, 57 individuals endorsed items consistent with a diagnosis of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, although only 2 individuals indicated that they had received a diagnosis of PTSD prior to program participation.
Of the 118 individuals who provided feedback regarding their satisfaction with the program, 90 reported that they would not recommend the program to others.
These findings will be discussed in terms of urgent needs to:
o Increase family awareness
o Increase professional/system awareness
o Increase protections within programs
o Increase protections within states (with regard to licensing/regulating, suspected child abuse reporting, and protection & advocacy)
o Conduct research / evaluation
o Provide resources & supports for youth & families who have been harmed
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and further
Benefits of Residential Treatment for Adolescents
There are many advantages to treatment in a residential facility. As Wong (1999, p. 42) reports, “Adolescents with long-standing and intense aggressive, destructive, and disruptive behavior are not good candidates for short-term, outpatient, or in-home treatment. Simply put, youth in this state do not participate in or cooperate with therapy. Some type of extended residential or alternative living situation is probably necessary to provide a secure and controlled environment in which to instigate behavior change.” Inpatient care can provide immediate help in a crisis situation, and can remove the client from dangerous situations (Barker, 1974). More so than the average outpatient program, residential facilities offer more opportunities for therapeutic contact, more monitoring of dangerous and disturbing behaviors, and a more direct evaluation of aftercare options. Assessments that are hard to do as an outpatient can be done at these facilities, and at multiple intervals, and hence the reactions to medication and other interventions can be watched particularly closely. In fact, with a well-trained staff, all activities throughout
Colgate University Journal of the Sciences 156
the day can be monitored for the sake of frequent reinforcement and constant therapeutic feedback (Kolko, 1992). Residential treatment centers can also cater to the needs of specific populations. The particular needs of adolescents usually differ in their means of communication and in their views of authority (Barker, 1974a).
One of the biggest advantages of residential treatment is the freedom to use many different treatment modalities. No single treatment model could possibly help all troubled adolescents with their various backgrounds, personalities, and problems (Barker, 1988). Therapeutic milieus at adolescent residential treatment centers are usually characterized by the following elements: consistent rules and routines, program activities, group sessions, individual psychotherapy, conflict interventions, incentive systems, special education, family treatment, parent education groups, and individual behavior modification programs (Whittaker, 1979). More specifically, certain treatments have been advocated for certain problems. For the large proportion of depressed adolescents in residential treatment, Francis & Hart (1992) recommend social skills training, cognitive therapy, and a general increase in activity. For antisocial adolescents, behavioral management and social skills training is effective (Lochman et al., 1992) and anger control programs have a demonstrated success (Feindler et al., 1986). Traditional substance abuse treatments are effective when modified to the background of a particular patient and to the particular abused substance (Kaminer & Bukstein, 1992). Cognitive behavior therapy has been very successful in residential treatments, especially when booster sessions are given after the adolescent is re-exposed to the real world and when the treatment is modified to be age-specific (Kaminer & Bukstein, 1992). Behavior modification techniques of contingency management and token economies are often effective, as many of the children in treatment facilities were never exposed to consistent and adequate systems of discipline at home (Kolko, 1992). An increase in structure that is recognized as fair and predictable motivates young people to pursue rewards and fear negative consequences (Kolko, 1992). Many of these treatment modalities are implemented concurrently within an individual, and in those cases, research is unable to demonstrate which methods are most greatly contributing to treatment success (Kolko, 1992).
Most treatment centers also involve an educational component. In 1975, all students who were labeled as emotionally disturbed were guaranteed a free, appropriate, and public education under law (Loar, 1992). Even in private facilities, the classroom can become an additional environment in which to evaluate and modify a child’s behavior, and teachers can contribute to the planning and implementing of the child’s treatment.
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http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=145&Itemid=35)
http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-02-98-00570.pdf (http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-02-98-00570.pdf)
http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_notes/NNVo ... uping.html (http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_notes/NNVol17N5/Grouping.html)
http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm (http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/surgeon_general_mental_health_ch3_treatment_interventions_residential.htm)
http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-15-3/Youth.html (http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-15-3/Youth.html)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/apolo ... ist23.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html)
http://www.isaccorp.org/aspen/aspen-ach ... 21.02.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/aspen/aspen-achievement.07.21.02.html)
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm)
Panel Finds that Scare Tactics for Violence Prevention are Harmful
Good news is that positive approaches show promise
Bethesda, Maryland — Programs that rely on “scare tactics” to prevent children and adolescents from engaging in violent behavior are not only ineffective, but may actually make the problem worse, according to an independent state-of-the-science panel convened this week by the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The panel, charged with assessing the available evidence on preventing violence and other health-risking behaviors in adolescents, announced today its assessment of the current research.
The panel found that group detention centers, boot camps, and other “get tough” programs often exacerbate problems by grouping young people with delinquent tendencies, where the more sophisticated instruct the more naïve. Similarly, the practice of transferring juveniles to the adult judicial system can be counterproductive, resulting in greater violence among incarcerated youth.
“The good news is that a number of intervention programs have been demonstrated to be effective through randomized controlled trials,” explained Dr. Robert L. Johnson, Chair of the Department of Pediatrics at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, who chaired the state-of-the-science panel. “We were pleased to find several programs that work, and we hope that communities will adopt them and continue to develop other interventions that incorporate the features common to successful programs.”
The panel highlighted two programs that are clearly effective in reducing arrests and out-of-home placements: Functional Family Therapy, and Multisystemic Therapy. Among the important characteristics that these programs have in common are a focus on developing social competency skills, a long-term approach, and family involvement.
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http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=145&Itemid=35)
http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-02-98-00570.pdf (http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-02-98-00570.pdf)
http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_notes/NNVo ... uping.html (http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_notes/NNVol17N5/Grouping.html)
http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm (http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/surgeon_general_mental_health_ch3_treatment_interventions_residential.htm)
http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-15-3/Youth.html (http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-15-3/Youth.html)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/apolo ... ist23.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/apologist/apologist23.html)
http://www.isaccorp.org/aspen/aspen-ach ... 21.02.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/aspen/aspen-achievement.07.21.02.html)
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm)
Panel Finds that Scare Tactics for Violence Prevention are Harmful
Good news is that positive approaches show promise
Bethesda, Maryland — Programs that rely on “scare tactics” to prevent children and adolescents from engaging in violent behavior are not only ineffective, but may actually make the problem worse, according to an independent state-of-the-science panel convened this week by the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The panel, charged with assessing the available evidence on preventing violence and other health-risking behaviors in adolescents, announced today its assessment of the current research.
The panel found that group detention centers, boot camps, and other “get tough” programs often exacerbate problems by grouping young people with delinquent tendencies, where the more sophisticated instruct the more naïve. Similarly, the practice of transferring juveniles to the adult judicial system can be counterproductive, resulting in greater violence among incarcerated youth.
“The good news is that a number of intervention programs have been demonstrated to be effective through randomized controlled trials,” explained Dr. Robert L. Johnson, Chair of the Department of Pediatrics at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, who chaired the state-of-the-science panel. “We were pleased to find several programs that work, and we hope that communities will adopt them and continue to develop other interventions that incorporate the features common to successful programs.”
The panel highlighted two programs that are clearly effective in reducing arrests and out-of-home placements: Functional Family Therapy, and Multisystemic Therapy. Among the important characteristics that these programs have in common are a focus on developing social competency skills, a long-term approach, and family involvement.
Great post… More and more TBS’s are not accepting children with violent behaviors and with the “tough love” style boot camps starting to fall out of favor there are less options (options for the courts also) for these kids. It is also nice to see that they are developing local services which have promise to be effective for them , transferring them to an adult facility would be disastrous.
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this one from woodbury is revealing....
When asked what the strengths of their program were, the answers overwhelmingly indicated that the staff was the most positive aspect. 160 respondents answered “staff”, often naming specific individuals. Many used other terms that described staff functions, such as: communication = 24, parent support = 29, structure = 57, and therapy = 47. The same pattern showed in respondent ratings of various aspects of the program, with functions carried out by staff members being rated as a very positive as program element, for example, aftercare = 4.75, communication = 4.46, consistency = 4.56, emotional growth = 5.0, and program planning = 4.54.
A similar pattern showed in the answers provided by the respondents when they were asked about weak points of the program. That is, the most common weaknesses that were identified, also related to staff. In this case, the following number of respondents identified the program weaknesses as follows: 56 indicated staff, 62 = communication, and 23 = turnover. In satisfaction averages, the lowest rating for program weakness was its therapy = 1.67. “Misled” received a rating of 1.89, suggesting promising more than can be delivered can have drastic consequences, at least in the opinion of some of the respondents. It also seems some respondents perhaps had a desire for more therapy.
Overall, there was a suggestion that the opinion of credible sources played an important role when making placement decisions. This is indicated by the high rate of satisfaction among those who found programs through Local Child Care professionals such as psychiatrists and therapists, as well as the relatively high rates of satisfaction indicated by those using independent educational consultants.
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Lets recap on our wish list:
#1- there should be unaffiliated therapists providing therapy. The family should be involved in the therapy and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 Unmonitored phone calls should be available to the adolescents
#3 A fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc. depending on the school/program.
#4 -Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care.
#5-reporting sexual and other abuse to the proper authorities (all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured).
#6-The ability for the children to earn high school diplomas and take the PSAT and SAT's.
#7-- No scare tactics!!
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Master list of schools (we can break these down into TBS and wilderness at some point)
* ABM Boarding Academy
* ABM Family Preparatory
* ABM Ministries, Inc
* Abundant Life Academy
* Abundant Life Academy of Kanab
* Abundant Life Christian Boarding School
* Academy at Canyon Creek
* Academy at Cedar Mountain
* Academy at Ivy Ridge
* Academy at Sisters
* Academy at Swift River
* Academy of the Sierras
* ACE
* Achievement Valley Ranch, Inc.
* Adirondack Leadership Expeditions
* Affinity Foundation
* Alberta Adolescent Recovery Center (AARC)
* Alldredge Academy
* Alpine Academy/Cottonwood Grove
* Alpine Academy/Oakridge
* Alpine Academy/Smith Home
* Alpine Academy/Willow Creek
* Alpine Boys Ranch
* America's Buffalo Soldiers Re-Enactors
* Anasazi Foundation
* Anchor Academy
* Appalachian Wilderness Camp
* Arizona Boys Ranch
* Ascent, Inc.
* Ascent Wilderness Intervention
* Aspen Achievement Academy
* Aspen Education Group
* Aspen Ranch
* Aspiro Wilderness Program
* Auldern Academy
* Avalon Hills Residential Eating Disorders Treatment
* Ayne Institute
B
* Bachelor Academy
* Bancroft NeuroHealth Inc
* Banham Marshalls College
* Bell Academy
* Bethel Boys Academy
* Bethel Girls Academy
* Birdseye Boys Ranch
* Blue Hills Academy
* Blue Mountain Family Center
* Blue Mountain Wilderness Program
* Boulder Creek Academy
* Boulder Outdoor Survival School
* Bowling Brook Preparatory School
* Bridges Boys Academy
* Brightway Hospital
* Broken Shackle Ranch
* Bromley Brook School
* Brown Schools
* Browning Academy
C
* Catherine Freer Wilderness
* Camas Ranch
* Camp Oakland
* Canyon Creek Academy
* Canyon State Academy
* Canyon View Park
* Carlbrook
* Carolina Springs Academy
* Casa By the Sea
* Catalyst Residential Treatment Center
* Cedars Academy
* Cedar Breaks Academy
* Cedar Ridge Academy
* CEDU Schools
* CERTS
* Chad Youth Enhancement Center --- Deaths? YES; Abuses? Yes; Still in Operation? Yes
* Cherokee Creek Boys School
* Challenger
* Christ Community Church
* Clear View
* Cold Spring Academy
* Colorado Mountain Camps
* Copper Canyon Academy
* Coral Island Academy
* Coral Reef Academy
* Cornerstone Programs Corp.
* Corpus Christi State School
* Cottonwood Youth Academy
* Crater Lake School
* Cross Creek Manor - North Campus
* Cross Creek Manor, LLC - Main Bldg
* Cross Creek Manor, LLC - Pass House
* Cross Creek Programs, LLC - South Campus
D
* Darrington Academy
* DeSisto School
* Devereux Foundation
* Deveraux Glenholme
* Discovery Academy
* Diamond Ranch Academy - Crystal Springs
* Diamond Ranch Academy - Lava Falls
* Discovery Ranch
* Distant Drums Beginnings
* Dundee Ranch Academy
E
* Eagle Point Christian Academy
* Eagle Ranch Academy, Inc.
* Eagle Valley Ranch, Inc.
* Eckerd Youth Alternatives
* Edgemeade-Raymond A. Rogers Jr. School
* Elan School
* Emily Griffith Center
* Escuala Caribe
* Evangeline Christian Home for Girls
* Excel Academy
* Excelsior Youth Ranch
* Extended Famikly, Inc.
F
* Faith Ranch
* Falcon Ridge Ranch
* Family Foundation School
* Flying H Youth Ranch
* Focal Point Academy
* Freedom Mountain Academy
* Froerer Counseling
* Fulshear
G
* Gatehouse
* Gateway Academy, LLC
* Gerard of Iowa care facility
* Glacier Mountain
* Grace Christian Home & Academy for Girls
* Grandfather Academy
* Grandfather Home for Children
* Greensboro Psychiatric Hospital
* Growing Together Inc
* Gulf Coast Academy
H
* Hanna
* Harbor Oaks Boarding School
* Heartlight Ministries
* Heritage Residential Treatment Center
* Heritage Youth Services
* Hidden Lake Academy
* High Impact
* High Top Ranch School
* Hope Ranch
* Horizon Academy
* House of Hope
* House of Hope Baja Teen Recovery Center
* Hyde School
I
* Idaho Youth Ranch
* Inner Changes of Provo Canyon
* Inner Connections
* Integrity House
* Integrity House West
* Intermountain Hospital
* Ironwood Maine
* Island View RTC
J
* Jeffrey C. Wardle Academy
* Jubilee Youth Ranch
* Jude Thaddeus Home Recovery Program
* Judge Rotenberg Educational Center
K
* Keystone Camp
* Keystone City Residence
* Kiatou Wilderness & Therpeutic Centre
* Kids Behavioral Health
* Kids Centers of America
* Kids Education and Kare
* Kids Helping Kids
* King George School
* Kids Helping Kids
* Kolob Canyon Residential Treatment Center
L
* La Europe
* Learning Independence Through Education (L.I.T.E.)
* Leeds
* Liahona Academy
* Lighthouse Christian Academy
* Life Designs
* Life-Lines, Inc.
* Lindon Boys Home
* Living Well Transitions
* Logan River Academy
* Lone Star Expeditions
* Lost and Found Youth Academy
* Lott's Legacy Boarding School
* Love Demonstrated Ministries Christian Boot Camp
M
* Majestic Ranch Academy, Inc.
* Manolia Christian Center
* Manuia Plantation
* Maple Lake Academy
* Maple Rise Properties, LLC - Tavasi
* Maryville Academy
* Meridell Achievement Center
* Midnight Mountain
* Midwest Academy
* Milestones
* Mission Mountain School
* Monarch School
* Montana Academy
* Moonridge Academy
* Morava Academy
* Mount Bachelor Academy
* Mount Carmel Youth Ranch
* Mountain Brook Academy
* Mountain Homes Youth Ranch
* Mountain Park Boarding Academy
N
* National Academy of Fitness
* National Deaf Academy
* Nevada Horizon Academy
* New Beginnings Maternity Home
* New Beginning Ministry, Inc.
* New Beginnings Rebekah Academy
* New Directions
* New Dominion School
* New Haven Residential Treatment Center
* New Horizons for Young Women
* New Horizons Youth Ministries
* New Horizons Youth Ranch
* New Leaf Academy
* Next Step for Success
* North Star Expeditions Inc
* North Star Center
* Northwest Academy
* Northwest Passages
* North Woods of Idaho
O
* Oak Ridge Military Academy
* Oakley School
* Obsidian Trails
* Odyssey Wilderness Programs
* OnTrack
* Open Sky Wilderness Therapy
* Optimum Performance Institute
* Outback Therapeutic Expeditions
* Outward Bound
* Oxbow Academy
P
* Pacific Coast Academy
* Pacific Quest
* Pacific View Retreat
* Paradise Cove
* Parents Helping Parents
* Passages to Recovery
* Pathway Academy, LLC
* Pathway Family Center
* Peninsula Behavioral Health
* Peninsula Village
* Penrith Farms
* Phoenix Institute
* Pillars of Hope
* Pine Ridge Academy
* Pine View Academy
* Pinnacle Foundatin
* Positive Impact Bahia de Kino
* Pressley Ridge Ohiopyle Therapeutic Wilderness
* Progressive Youth, Inc.
* Project DARE Canada - Wendigo Lake Expeditions
* Provo Canyon School
Q
R
* Rainsbrook training centre
* Rancho Valmora
* Red Cliff Ascent
* Red Rock Canyon School
* Red River Academy
* Renaissance Adolescent Services, Inc.
* Resolution Ranch
* Respect Camp
* Ridge Creek
* Rite of Passage
* Robert Land Academy
* Rocklyn Academy
* Rocky Mountain Academy
* Rose Hill Psychiatric Rehabilitation
* Royal Gorge Academy
S
* Salem Ranch
* SAFE, Inc/ACE
* Safe Harbor Boys Home
* Safe Harbor Haven
* Sage Walk
* San Cristobal Ranch Academy
* Second Chance, Inc.
* Second Nature Entrada, LLC
* Second Nature Wilderness Programs
* Shamrock Educational Academy
* Shamrock Educational Alternative
* Shepherd's Hill Farm
* Shortridge Academy
* Silverado Boys Ranch
* Sky View Academy
* Skyline Journey
* SLS Health
* Solacium - New Haven LLC
* Solacium - New Haven LLC - Parks House
* Solacium - New Haven LLC - Roosevelt
* Solacium - New Haven LLC - Sacagawea
* Solacium Sunrise, LLC
* Soltreks
* Sorensen's Ranch School
* Southwestern Academy
* Spring Creek Lodge Academy
* Spring Ridge Academy
* Stone Mountain School
* Straight Arrow Apex
* Straight Inc
* STARR Academy
* Stepping Stones for Success, LLC
* Summit Achievement in New England
* Summit Quest Academy
* SummitQuest
* Sunhawk Academy
* Sunrise Academy
* Sunrise Beach
* Sunrise Family Services
* SUWS
* SUWS of the Carolinas
* SUWS Youth Program
* Swan Valley Youth Academy - (Closed in 2006 amid abuse allegations)
* Swift River, Academy at
T
* Talisman Programs
* Tavasi
* Teen Help
* Teen Horizon
* Temagami Academy
* Thayer Learning Center
* Three Rivers Montana
* Three Springs Schools
* Top Flight Academy
* Tranquility Bay
* Trinity Teen Solutions
* Triple L Youth Ranch
* TurnAbout Ranch
* Turn About Ranch - Barn
* Turn About Ranch - Boys Cabin
* Turn About Ranch - Lodge
* Turn About Ranch - Ranch House
* Turn About Ranch - Roundy
* Turning Point Family Care, Inc.
* Turning Winds
* Tyler Ranch
U
* UHS of Provo Canyon, Inc - Inner Changes of Provo Canyon
* UHS of Provo Canyon, Inc - Orem Campus
* UHS of Provo Canyon, Inc. - Provo Campus
* UHS of Provo Canyon, Inc. - Sommerset
* UHS of Provo Canyon School
* Uinta Academy
* Unita Academy East
* Unita Academy West
* Universal Interventions
* Utah Youth Village - Alpine Academy/Cottonwood Grove
* Utah Youth Village - Alpine Academy/Oakridge
* Utah Youth Village - Alpine Academy/Smith Home
* Utah Youth Village - Alpine Academy/Willow Creek
V
* Victor Cullen Youth Center
* Victory Care Centers Corp - Victory House
* Vista Adolescent Treatment Center
* Vista Counseling Services
* Vista at Dimple Dell Canyon
* Vista Teen Living, LLC
* Vista Teen Living - Teen Horizon
* VisionQuest Programs
* Volunteers of America, Utah
W
* Waterfall Canyon
* Wardle Academy (Jeffrey C.,)
* Wardles Therapeutic Family Home
* Wellspring Academy
* West Ridge Academy
* White River Academy, Inc.
* White River Adventure
* Whitmore Academy
* Wilderness Challenger
* Wilderness Quest
* Willow Creek School
* Wisdom Ranch School
* Woodland Hills Academy
* Woodland Hills Maternity Home
* World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools - WWASPS
X
Y
* Youth Care, Inc.
* Youth Track
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#1- Individual therapy should be provided by an unaffiliated therapist. The family should be involved and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 -Periodoc "unmonitored" phone calls should be available to the adolescents.
#3-A fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc. depending on the school/program.
#4 -Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care.
#5-reporting sexual and other abuse to the proper authorities (all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured).
#6-The ability for the children to earn high school diplomas and take the PSAT and SAT's.
#7- No scare tactics
#8- No Fences
#9-
#10-
...
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Great post… More and more TBS’s are not accepting children with violent behaviors and with the “tough love” style boot camps starting to fall out of favor there are less options (options for the courts also) for these kids. It is also nice to see that they are developing local services which have promise to be effective for them , transferring them to an adult facility would be disastrous.
Not really true. The industry is just changing its marketing tactics because of the recent negative publicity. Again, no different from what Straight did back in my time. The Times started publishing a bunch of articles documenting the abuses, fraud and manipulation of State officials to keep its license and lo and behold, 'kinder, gentler' Straights (or differing names, but direct descendants) started popping up. They SAY the don't use scare tactics and they may in fact be more subtle, but they're there (Exit Plans are a prime example). The programs can't "work" without fear and isolation.
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AMEN
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With the "tough love" and abuse that has surfaced in regard to "Boot Camps" the courts are looking for better places to send kids. TBS's are not taking violent kids as much these days which is putting pressure on the system to come up with alternatives. If these programs (Functional Family Therapy, and Multisystemic Therapy) can compete on a financial level and turn kids around at an equal or better rate than boot camps then it would be a win win for the kids and society. It appears that they may since they are local.
Another program which is worth taking a look at is the ”Down to Earth project” which is being discussed on another thread in this forum.
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Hey, I have a good idea. How about instead of sending kids away... Parents just fucking do their jobs and raise their young?
Gee sounds like a good idea to me.
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#1- Individual therapy should be provided by an unaffiliated therapist. The family should be involved and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 -Periodoc "unmonitored" phone calls should be available to the adolescents.
#3-A fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc. depending on the school/program.
#4 -Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care.
#5-reporting sexual and other abuse to the proper authorities (all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured).
#6-The ability for the children to earn high school diplomas and take the PSAT and SAT's.
#7- No scare tactics
#8- No Fences
#9-
#10-
...
(9) That never opens their door for business so that parents are not lied to and conned by industry shills.
(10) That gives a money back guarantee with interest to the child if the child was not completely satisfied no matter how many years it is down the road when the "Happy happy joy joy" of the brainwashing wears off as well as gives the press an honest "Programs are full of shit and are only there to suck parents funds with no real success stories" statement.
(11) That do not hire industry shills to come on chat forums in a futile attempt to convince parents that there may be some validity to the lies that the shill gives saying that programs are such a fucking ray of hope for a troubled teen.
(12) That lines staff members as well as the owners and the stock holders up against a wall, and lets the unsatified people (whether they were in the program or not) stone the them to death.
(13) That petitions the government to shut down all program facilities due to the fact that they all are a bunch of abusive pricks to kids (parents included) and only suck the life and extort money from people.
(14) That only exists in the mind of a derranged psycopath that comes onto a forum where people do not like them, and only tolerates them due to freedom of speech.
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It is interesting, some of the feedback that I have received is for the item “Scare tactics”. Many people do not understand what is meant by this so I thought we could make a list of examples and place it out on the forum:
1. Some places will indicate that if the kid gets kicked out they will be sent to a tougher boarding school or program.
2. Parents will not let them go home again.
3. They will be sent back to wilderness
4. Have to go backwards in the program and therefore extend their stay.
These are tactics that can be used to gain compliance/control and are sometimes used by staff. Some are sanctioned by the school and others are not.
This may be an area that you may wish to discuss with the school prior to choosing one.
...
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Don't let them fool you TheWho, they love the fact they were sent to programs, so they can whine about it for the rest of their lives and blame their failures on their parents. Boo-fucking-hoo, I was sent to a program. Get over it already you cry-baby.
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Don't let them fool you TheWho, they love the fact they were sent to programs, so they can whine about it for the rest of their lives and blame their failures on their parents. Boo-fucking-hoo, I was sent to a program. Get over it already you cry-baby.
Damn! I've been found out. They're onto me.
(http://http://www.webweaver.nu/clipart/img/people/eyes/cartoon-eyes.gif)
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Great post… More and more TBS’s are not accepting children with violent behaviors and with the “tough love” style boot camps starting to fall out of favor there are less options (options for the courts also) for these kids. It is also nice to see that they are developing local services which have promise to be effective for them , transferring them to an adult facility would be disastrous.
Not really true. The industry is just changing its marketing tactics because of the recent negative publicity. Again, no different from what Straight did back in my time. The Times started publishing a bunch of articles documenting the abuses, fraud and manipulation of State officials to keep its license and lo and behold, 'kinder, gentler' Straights (or differing names, but direct descendants) started popping up. They SAY the don't use scare tactics and they may in fact be more subtle, but they're there (Exit Plans are a prime example). The programs can't "work" without fear and isolation.
A disturbing trend that I have observed locally is a seeming unwillingness on the part of ordinary public schools to deal with "problem kids." These kids then end up in psychiatric lockups, and thence are court-ordered to behav mod facilities as they and their time in the system mature. I haven't been on fornits long enough to know this for sure, but it does seem as though we have gotten an increasing number of visits from parents who are stuck between a rock and a hard place... That is, having a kid who has been court-ordered into a facility, and the parent complies with the system simply because they do not want to lose their kid.
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Unfortunately, that's pretty true. I think that's the crux of the problem though (pathologizing adolescence) and if that can somehow be addressed, maybe just maybe things might begin to change.
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A disturbing trend that I have observed locally is a seeming unwillingness on the part of ordinary public schools to deal with "problem kids." These kids then end up in psychiatric lockups, and thence are court-ordered to behav mod facilities as they and their time in the system mature. I haven't been on fornits long enough to know this for sure, but it does seem as though we have gotten an increasing number of visits from parents who are stuck between a rock and a hard place... That is, having a kid who has been court-ordered into a facility, and the parent complies with the system simply because they do not want to lose their kid.
It is very disturbing. It appears the school system has found a different way to flex their muscles and fight the baby sitting job they have been stuck with. When kids were disruptive in school it use to be the parents would set the kids straight at home with a few ultimatums... now that isn’t being done because both parents work and they don’t have time. So the new approach is that if the child is disruptive he/she must have a problem and the school sends a note home (from the school nurse) indicating the child should see his pediatrician to be evaluated... the doctor gets the message (understands the drill) he is suppose to medicate the kid (which is cheaper for the insurance companies than sending the child to another specialist or a therapist)... so he goes through his drawer of labels and picks one out i.e. ADD, OCD, ADHD, XYZ.... hangs it around the kids neck for all to see, prescribes some meds and once a child is on meds there is no going back except more and/or different meds.
The kid goes back to school and the school is happy, the parents go back to work, unhappy,after blowing a half a days vacation at the doctors office, the doctor is happy seeing he doesn’t have to explain another referral to a shrink or specialist to the insurance company so he stays within his quota for the month and the child’s personality is altered to make him happy (short term).
As the child acts out more because he is building a resistance to the meds (or his/her mind is growing in a different direction to compensate for the meds)they just up the dosage or switch to something stronger in the hopes they can keep the kid sedated long enough to get him/her thru the system to legal age. The court ordered referrals are just fallout from a failed system…. A half decent statistician can probably predict how many kids they will need beds for a year in advance so the courts are prepared for the court cases coming their way.
Although the parents have virtually all the legal control over their children they want they just don’t realize it because the system doesn’t tell them or they don’t get (non court appointed) lawyers.
...
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It is very disturbing. It appears the school system has found a different way to flex their muscles and fight the baby sitting job they have been stuck with. When kids were disruptive in school it use to be the parents would set the kids straight at home with a few ultimatums... now that isn’t being done because both parents work and they don’t have time.
Then they need to goddamn well make the time. That's the most important 'job' they have....being a parent. If things are getting so bad and the parents have enough money to send them off to some expensive TBS/RTC then they can take a leave of absence and take care of their family instead of paying unqualified strangers using unproven and questionable methods of 'treatment'.
So the new approach is that if the child is disruptive he/she must have a problem and the school sends a note home (from the school nurse) indicating the child should see his pediatrician to be evaluated... the doctor gets the message (understands the drill) he is suppose to medicate the kid (which is cheaper for the insurance companies than sending the child to another specialist or a therapist)... so he goes through his drawer of labels and picks one out i.e. ADD, OCD, ADHD, XYZ.... hangs it around the kids neck for all to see, prescribes some meds and once a child is on meds there is no going back except more and/or different meds.
Again I put the blame on the parents. If one of my daughters had been sent home with a request for them to see a doctor because of behavioral problems I'd tell them to get fucked! Its oh so much easier for parents to start drugging their kids than it is to really do their job as a parent.
The kid goes back to school and the school is happy, the parents go back to work, unhappy,after blowing a half a days vacation at the doctors office, the doctor is happy seeing he doesn’t have to explain another referral to a shrink or specialist to the insurance company so he stays within his quota for the month and the child’s personality is altered to make him happy (short term).
Yep, so why would any responsible parent allow that?
As the child acts out more because he is building a resistance to the meds (or his/her mind is growing in a different direction to compensate for the meds)they just up the dosage or switch to something stronger in the hopes they can keep the kid sedated long enough to get him/her thru the system to legal age. The court ordered referrals are just fallout from a failed system…. A half decent statistician can probably predict how many kids they will need beds for a year in advance so the courts are prepared for the court cases coming their way.
Failed parenting. Why is it up to the 'system' to help raise your child?
Although the parents have virtually all the legal control over their children they want they just don’t realize it because the system doesn’t tell them or they don’t get (non court appointed) lawyers.
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Because its easier to drug them or ship them off than for parents to do their fucking job!!!
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Wow, that is the closest we ever came to agreeing, Anne!!
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Ugh. Now I feel ill.
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Ugh. Now I feel ill.
Post that picture of you on the boat then!! That always made you feel better!
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Yeah, it usually does. But if I know its for your benefit, I just get sick to my stomach.
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To DieYuppieScum
Wow, your name is super mature
and you have absolutely no right to be saying that you think parents should just do their fucking job and raise their young right.
i got sent away and believe me you ignorant piece of shit my parents are the most amazing parents ever and there was no way they could have raised me any better or done anything different to try and keep me out of trouble. i was unstoppable and the only way they could help me was to send me away because my reality was so obstructed and scewed. I wish upon you a child just like me so you will understand that its not just as simple as "doing your fucking job" to raise a good kid. Ignorant FUCK.
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Hey Aly Guess what? I don't care and frankly don't believe you went anywhere. Granted I may be wrong. But I don't trust guests that come in once, talk shit and then disappear off the face of the planet.
Don't tell me about being sent away because 5 years of my life were sucked away and trust me champ I did some bad things but none of them required me to go to Dante's third ring of hades to get the message in that it was not socially acceptable.
When you hit the point that you willingly hold someones face to a bunson burner for refusing to pay you ice money... then we will talk, but something tells me you are just another trust fund baby that smoked pot on the weekends and refused to do your homework. And thats even if you truly even went (which I doubt)
I don't care if your folks were saints. If you can't raise kids, don't have them. Put your cock back in your drawers and beat off in to a sock and save the child all the unneeded mental stress you would put on them by sending them to rehab.
"really mature" what makes you think I give two cunt stains what you think is mature?
My name bothers you? Too bad, go piss up a rope and open your mouth to catch the stream.
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Well said, DYS. The bonehead you replied to deserved every word of that "immaturity" because:
1. If they are for real, then they should see the truth in the statement that parents should raise their own kids instead of passing them off to be 'fixed,' even if they think that approach worked for them.
2. If not, then they're merely trolling in support of the (almost always) false notion that programs are helpful.
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Here is where we left off:
#1- Individual therapy should be provided by an unaffiliated therapist. The family should be involved and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 -Periodoc "unmonitored" phone calls should be available to the adolescents.
#3-A fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc. depending on the school/program.
#4 -Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care.
#5-reporting sexual and other abuse to the proper authorities (all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured).
#6-The ability for the children to earn high school diplomas and take the PSAT and SAT's.
#7- No scare tactics
#8- No Fences
#9-
#10-
...
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This list is well intentioned, I'm sure but what good is it? There were 'rules' and 'laws' that Straight was supposed to be following too. And the language of things like "no scare tactics" is left wide open for interpretation and THAT, when dealing with control freak psychos like program staff, is dangerous. Scare tactics can mean anything from threatening to beat them within an inch of their lives, to instilling the fear of abandonment from their families if they don't conform and 'get with the program' or 'start working their program'.
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This list is well intentioned, I'm sure but what good is it? There were 'rules' and 'laws' that Straight was supposed to be following too. And the language of things like "no scare tactics" is left wide open for interpretation and THAT, when dealing with control freak psychos like program staff, is dangerous. Scare tactics can mean anything from threatening to beat them within an inch of their lives, to instilling the fear of abandonment from their families if they don't conform and 'get with the program' or 'start working their program'.
We are aware of this and understand that goes for any of the items. I think MIS's intent was to define and "ideal"... not sure how we would insure all the items are adhered to yet but the first step would be to define a wish list of what would constitute an ideal TBS.
Once the list is defined the next step would be to figure out how implement it or use it as a benchmark to measure each TBS against.
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We are aware of this
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
(http://http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:7HqeSjJhDh1PTM:http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos/2005/04/07/inigomontoya.jpg)
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Inconceivable!
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Don't forget the R.O.U.S's
(They DO exist)
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Yes, the rodents of unusual size....I know they do.
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We are aware of this
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
We
pron.
1. Used by the speaker or writer to indicate the speaker or writer along with another or others as the subject: We made it to the lecture hall on time. We are planning a trip to Arizona this winter.
2. Used to refer to people in general, including the speaker or writer: "How can we enter the professions and yet remain civilized human beings?" Virginia Woolf.
Typically (on fornits) I will use it to refer to people in general (#2). But in the post you are referring to I was using it as defined in #1, referring to MIS and myself.
So I think the majority of us understand the meaning and its usage when I use it. I hope this clears it up for you.
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We are aware of this
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
We
pron.
1. Used by the speaker or writer to indicate the speaker or writer along with another or others as the subject: We made it to the lecture hall on time. We are planning a trip to Arizona this winter.
2. Used to refer to people in general, including the speaker or writer: "How can we enter the professions and yet remain civilized human beings?" Virginia Woolf.
Typically (on fornits) I will use it to refer to people in general (#2). But in the post you are referring to I was using it as defined in #1, referring to MIS and myself.
So I think the majority of us understand the meaning and its usage when I use it. I hope this clears it up for you.
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Let me further clarify by saying that WE means ME. Me and my 27 personalities.
Thank you
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(http://http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/077.gif)
(http://http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/1074.gif)
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We are aware of this
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
We
pron.
1. Used by the speaker or writer to indicate the speaker or writer along with another or others as the subject: We made it to the lecture hall on time. We are planning a trip to Arizona this winter.
2. Used to refer to people in general, including the speaker or writer: "How can we enter the professions and yet remain civilized human beings?" Virginia Woolf.
Typically (on fornits) I will use it to refer to people in general (#2). But in the post you are referring to I was using it as defined in #1, referring to MIS and myself.
So I think the majority of us understand the meaning and its usage when I use it. I hope this clears it up for you.
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I dont think it clears it up at all. I dont think she reads much is the problem.
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We are aware of this
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
We
pron.
1. Used by the speaker or writer to indicate the speaker or writer along with another or others as the subject: We made it to the lecture hall on time. We are planning a trip to Arizona this winter.
2. Used to refer to people in general, including the speaker or writer: "How can we enter the professions and yet remain civilized human beings?" Virginia Woolf.
Typically (on fornits) I will use it to refer to people in general (#2). But in the post you are referring to I was using it as defined in #1, referring to MIS and myself.
So I think the majority of us understand the meaning and its usage when I use it. I hope this clears it up for you.
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I dont think it clears it up at all. I dont think she reads much is the problem.
Now, now dont pick on someone because they dont read well or understand stuff.
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I have incorporated the list we have been working on with MIS's list. We still need to add a few items from the parents emails to address items like fences within the TBS grounds, but I wanted to get this up so we could continue to work on it.
1) The schools will provide the minimum education required in the state in which the school resides. The right and obligation of adolescents to an education will be acknowledged and not treated as a privilege which must be earned. The ability for the children to earn high school diplomas and take the PSAT and SAT's should also be considered.
2) The TBS will provide care to the child which is consistent with the standard of care for that illness.
3) The TBS will conduct background checks on all employees prior to hiring them.
4) TBS’s will not accept adolescents who are picked up by transport services unless the child refuses to travel with the parents first.
5) All guardians, which have physical custody of the child shall be in agreement prior to placement.
6) TBS’s will include in their promotional material specific details on the educational levels and certifications of all employees providing professional services. The distinction between services being provided by licensed professional and services being provided by others will be made clear.
7) TBS’s will make available information about the number of adolescents admitted to the program in the past five years and the number that successfully “graduated” from the program.
8 ) All TBS will make it clear that it does not approve or tolerate physical abuse of adolescents, the withholding of food or sleep as therapy or punishment, and the humiliation of adolescents as therapy. reporting sexual and other abuse to the proper authorities (all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured).
9) All facilities will permit adolescents regular and unmonitored contact with their parents after an initial blackout period. Including, but not limited to, Periodic "unmonitored" phone calls should be available to the adolescents.
10) Individual therapy should be provided by an unaffiliated therapist. The family should be involved and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible. Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care..
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I am done with this now but I can't resist asking who the "we" is now? The list you have produced now has nothing to do with anything I wrote. In fact, you have taken what I wrote and reworded what I wrote to be exactly the opposite of the point I was trying to make. You really are a shameless tout of the worst kind.
Fortunately there is now a record in three different threads of what I wrote, of your initial responses, of your retreat and yourrefusal to answer fair questions. It is priceless tout! In a field that shamelessly manipulates frightened parents you shamelessly tout and lie on this board. Bye tout!
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I am done with this now but I can't resist asking who the "we" is now? The list you have produced now has nothing to do with anything I wrote. In fact, you have taken what I wrote and reworded what I wrote to be exactly the opposite of the point I was trying to make. You really are a shameless tout of the worst kind.
Fortunately there is now a record in three different threads of what I wrote, of your initial responses, of your retreat and yourrefusal to answer fair questions. It is priceless tout! In a field that shamelessly manipulates frightened parents you shamelessly tout and lie on this board. Bye tout!
Ahh, sorry to see ya go, MS
Well, I do have to say you hung in longer than I thought you would. You had a list of 10 items, which you generated on your own and as soon as you were asked to accept input from other people you folded and ran away. If you are not interested in input from other people then I suggest you don’t post it on fornits.
One of the snags you got yourself into was trying to apply 10 items to various types of industry. You cant expect a 6 week wilderness program to have the same academic requirements as a boarding school (for example) so you literally set yourself up for failure right out of the box. I tried to lead you away from that demise but it seems you insisted.
I have taken the liberty of rewriting your list to apply to TBS’s only and cut out some of the wording which was redundant or lacked value. The list was a very good first cut, MIS, so don’t feel it was written in vain. This list will help serve parents in that they can carry it with them and use it as a benchmark or tickler when visiting campuses.
If you get the chance to come back next Sunday, check in and see if there is anything you would like to add as we progress. We will be writing a similar list for wilderness programs after we get this one hammered down.
Take care and good discussion.
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Here is where we left off:
#1- Individual therapy should be provided by an unaffiliated therapist. The family should be involved and the facility should be as close to the family's home as is reasonably possible.
#2 -Periodoc "unmonitored" phone calls should be available to the adolescents.
#3-A fixed or predetermined length of stay... or maybe a small window of 14 -16 months..... 6-9 months .... 30 - 60 days etc. depending on the school/program.
#4 -Unless the treatment is specifically approved by an outside therapist it must be evidence based and consistent with any applicable standard of care.
#5-reporting sexual and other abuse to the proper authorities (all staff that treat kids will be mandatory reporters of child abuse to the state where the abuse allegedly occured).
#6-The ability for the children to earn high school diplomas and take the PSAT and SAT's.
#7- No scare tactics
#8- No Fences
#9-
#10-
...
NERP....... This is where we left off!!!!!
(9) That never opens their door for business so that parents are not lied to and conned by industry shills.
(10) That gives a money back guarantee with interest to the child if the child was not completely satisfied no matter how many years it is down the road when the "Happy happy joy joy" of the brainwashing wears off as well as gives the press an honest "Programs are full of shit and are only there to suck parents funds with no real success stories" statement.
(11) That do not hire industry shills to come on chat forums in a futile attempt to convince parents that there may be some validity to the lies that the shill gives saying that programs are such a fucking ray of hope for a troubled teen.
(12) That lines staff members as well as the owners and the stock holders up against a wall, and lets the unsatified people (whether they were in the program or not) stone the them to death.
(13) That petitions the government to shut down all program facilities due to the fact that they all are a bunch of abusive pricks to kids (parents included) and only suck the life and extort money from people.
(14) That only exists in the mind of a derranged psycopath that comes onto a forum where people do not like them, and only tolerates them due to freedom of speech.
(http://http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m40/MrGrim_2006/smiles/insanity-1.gif)
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We are aware of this
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
(http://http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:7HqeSjJhDh1PTM:http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos/2005/04/07/inigomontoya.jpg)
[size=180] He should really use phases that relect singular status such as "I, me, my, and mine"
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sfsdfdsfsfsfdf
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MIS was just as rude a thewho
Bullshit.
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MIS was just as rude a thewho
Bullshit.
Na-nee-na-nee-boo-boo.
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(http://http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/18574/wm/pd1112490.jpg)
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Anne Bonney wrote:
I think that's the crux of the problem though (pathologizing adolescence) and if that can somehow be addressed, maybe just maybe things might begin to change.
Right on the money, Anne.
Auntie Em
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No one really needs a TBS. People have problems. But problems aren't solved by being locked away from your problems. They need to be confronted and dealt with.
This goes for kids with real mental illness, too. My best friend is and 18 year old who is "afraid" that she has built and planted a bomb without knowing it, and that their are babies in garbage cans. She obsesses about this. If you go out with her on a bad day, she'll ask you to check the garbage for babies, or beneath the chair for bombs a dozen times. She works THROUGH her mental issues with meds and acupuncture and leads a "normal" rewarding life.
Places to treat mental crises so intense one needs to be in an institution already exist. They are called HOSPITALS. They should be used only until an emergency passes (one is an IMMEDIATE danger to themselves or others). Otherwise, people should have home based, individually oriented care. And a functional parent- therein lies the problem.
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Well I am glad to see this thread and I'm offended by it at the same time. There's a lot of good information and some bad.
First, I'm offended that people here think that all a child needs is good parenting. I have a child that is schizophrenic, the paranoid type. He refuses to take medication that would help, because he's afraid of it. As a parent I don't have any legal power to force medication upon him. I can call the police if he's an imminent threat to himself or others and this has happened. My son believed his mother was having someone come over to beat him up so he armed himself with a hatchet. When the police arrived he had it in his hand. Luckily they didn't shoot him. Then the few times he has been in the hospital, they kept him for a week or less then released him suggesting we take him to a psychiatrist to follow up. Well he refuses to see a psychiatrist, therapist or any doctor for that matter. He's bigger and stronger than I so don't tell me to man handle him like the police once suggested either! I could go on about the delusions and hallucinations for a long time, but I won't bore you. The information I've read about my son's illness suggests that it's one of the worst you can have. His odds in life are prison, death or homelessness. So the cookie cutter idea that good parenting is all a child needs doesn't hold water. It seems that my sons best hope is some sort of long term treatment where he'll take medication and get therapy as well as an education.
Second I'm glad that there are people that want to make sure that children are safe in programs like this. In that regard I'm glad you're here. I love my son dearly. I don't want to see him hurt in any way. Please keep up the good work. Just lay off the absolute idea that good parenting is a cure all.
I'd write more, but I'm probably wasting my time here. At least it felt good. I fully expect some illogical, moronic, flamer to have a go at me so have fun.
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You're not even a real person, so why bother?
BLATANT TROLLS ARE NO LESS BLATANT NOW THAN THEY WERE THREE YEARS AGO
GET A CLUE
THEY COME CHEAP HERE
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You're not even a real person, so why bother?
BLATANT TROLLS ARE NO LESS BLATANT NOW THAN THEY WERE THREE YEARS AGO
GET A CLUE
THEY COME CHEAP HERE
Keep reading and get a load of some of the so called survivor stories. Some are real obvious trolls. Wish there was a reliable way to identfy the true ones from the obvious troll stories. Maybe a rating system of some kind may help.
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Well I am glad to see this thread and I'm offended by it at the same time. There's a lot of good information and some bad.
First, I'm offended that people here think that all a child needs is good parenting. I have a child that is schizophrenic, the paranoid type. He refuses to take medication that would help, because he's afraid of it. As a parent I don't have any legal power to force medication upon him. I can call the police if he's an imminent threat to himself or others and this has happened. My son believed his mother was having someone come over to beat him up so he armed himself with a hatchet. When the police arrived he had it in his hand. Luckily they didn't shoot him. Then the few times he has been in the hospital, they kept him for a week or less then released him suggesting we take him to a psychiatrist to follow up. Well he refuses to see a psychiatrist, therapist or any doctor for that matter. He's bigger and stronger than I so don't tell me to man handle him like the police once suggested either! I could go on about the delusions and hallucinations for a long time, but I won't bore you. The information I've read about my son's illness suggests that it's one of the worst you can have. His odds in life are prison, death or homelessness. So the cookie cutter idea that good parenting is all a child needs doesn't hold water. It seems that my sons best hope is some sort of long term treatment where he'll take medication and get therapy as well as an education.
Second I'm glad that there are people that want to make sure that children are safe in programs like this. In that regard I'm glad you're here. I love my son dearly. I don't want to see him hurt in any way. Please keep up the good work. Just lay off the absolute idea that good parenting is a cure all.
I'd write more, but I'm probably wasting my time here. At least it felt good. I fully expect some illogical, moronic, flamer to have a go at me so have fun.
If I were replying to a genuine question, my reply would be...........
What you're dealing with is quite obviously a medical issue. No TBS, RTC, Wilderness Camp, Boot Camp or any other "alternative" therapy would ever be able to address what you're describing. Medical help is your only option and I'm sorry I don't have the experience or knowledge to help you.
I wish you luck.
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Well I am glad to see this thread and I'm offended by it at the same time. There's a lot of good information and some bad.
Your reaction to this thread (and site) is an intelligent one. I have nothing to do with the creation or maintenance of the site, however, I'm a good example of someone who this site appeals to. I'm a 1990 graduate of a TBS. I experienced a TBS, and am interested in how TBS's effect everyone. That said, I come here to learn from, share and process my experience. As a relatively free form site there will be plenty of folks who show up here with all sorts of bizarre agendas. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
First, I'm offended that people here think that all a child needs is good parenting.
It's not all a child needs but is one of the primary requisites.
Simply put - fornits hopes to educate folks about the abundance of damaging pseudo-support out there
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So the cookie cutter idea that good parenting is all a child needs doesn't hold water..
I have been reading and posting here for several years and this has been a fundamental problem with the way many think here and I attribute fornits lack of ability to effect change in this area partially to this way of thinking. Ignoring any possibility that the child is responsible or plays a role, the environment is responsible etc. isolates a huge section of possibilities when coming down to problem solving or looking for solutions. The fix always seems to be focused on the parents. After three years of this type of thinking (and failing to make any headway) I believe it may be time to take a step back and take a broader view.
Second I'm glad that there are people that want to make sure that children are safe in programs like this
Thank you, I believe that most of the posters here have the childs best interests at the forefront. I, myself, believe that the key is to match the right child with the right program and to screen each child to insure a program is indeed appropriate for them. Most of the people here disagree with me on this concept so I am the odd man out here.
I hope you can come away with some insight into this industry by reading here.
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Right....Cindy is it your belief that 60 kids per week are dying violent deaths in public schools?
Yes or no Cindy.
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Right....Cindy is it your belief that 60 kids per week are dying violent deaths in public schools?
Yes or no Cindy.
Do that many kids really die every day? Can someone produce evidence of this? What is considered violent?
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No, it isnt even close to that number. Cindy however in his never ending quest to spew propoganda pretending as much for quite awhile. That is of course until I posted a link to some legitimate numbers that proved him to be a liar once again. Now he's refuses to stand behind his original claim or admit he was wrong to begin with, all because he's a liar and a coward. He hates being held accountable for his nonsense, and I just happen to get a huge kick out of it. If you're interested in the real numbers I'd be glad to post them.
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Do that many kids really die every day? Can someone produce evidence of this? What is considered violent?
If you take a look at some of the government figures from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) they tell us that :
Age group (5 – 18) in and away from school. For say year 2003:
1,515 kids were victims of Homicide and
1,331 kids were victims of suicide.
Which works out to 55 suicides and Homicides per week. This doesn’t include all the other deaths due to drug overdose and accidents etc. I took this information and compared it to the private sector i.e. Therapeutic Boarding Schools, RTC’s and Wilderness programs if anyone is interested I could repost the results.
http://http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/crimeindicators2006/table_01_1.asp
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Point blank....There are no good TBS's
Face the truth.... It will set you free.
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Pay close attention here Cindy, look at what I asked,
Right....Cindy is it your belief that 60 kids per week are dying violent deaths in public schools?
Yes or no Cindy.
in public schools
According to your own source during the 2003 school year a grand total of 18 kids died. Which in a school year comes out to one kid dying roughly every three weeks. A travesty to be sure, but not nearly the ridiculus numbers your spewing out hoping to scare parents with.
Now what Cindy is doing is taking the larger number that corelates to the total number of school age kids killed outside of public schools. In other words Johnny is walking down the street six miles away from his school at 11 o clock on a Saturday night, happens to be gunned down, and Cindy wants to claim this is evidence of public schools not being safe. In actuality this has nothing to do with public school safety. His school might be the safest place in the world, and he can still face danger outside of it, as is evidenced by the numbers. Furthermore Cindy's claim:
I took this information and compared it to the private sector i.e. Therapeutic Boarding Schools, RTC’s and Wilderness programs if anyone is interested I could repost the results.
What he really means here is his own bs numbers. He dismissed numerous kids deaths in the PTS as "not fitting the parameters" parameters he himself decreed. The actual numbers are far more disturbing then Cindy's claim of only ten deaths, in what is it Cindy, fifteen years? Idiot. If you're interested in the real numbers I'd be happy to post them.
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Mr. bruce, I am not a fan of thewho but I checked his link and the numbers he stated are correct. I think where you are confused is the 18 children died during school hours, the rest were after school hours. If a child in a program was killed at 11 o’clock at night he/she wouldn’t be in school at the time but would still be in the TBS. So thewho is comparing numbers taken from the public sector to those of TBS,RTC and wilderness.
If he only took the 18 during school hours (as you suggest) it would not compare properly to the 24 hours the children spend in TBS’s. So you see he needs to compare a 24 hour period to a 24 hour period. This where the 55 deaths per week comes from.
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Gosh I wonder who that is posting anonymously.
I think where you are confused is the 18 children died during school hours,
No I'm not confused on the point at all, you are. The original question was to compare public school safety with that of the PTS. What kids do outside of public school has nothing to do with school safety. In the PTS however the institute in question is respondsible for the child 24 hours a day, because that is the nature of the facility.
If a child in public school dies during school hours or at a school event its counted. If he died in the evenings or weekends or on vacation while away from his school it has nothing to do with public school safety.
In the same sense if a child incarcerated in a PTS institute was let out for a vacation of some sort and died while on vacation, it would have nothing to do with the safety in the PTS.
You're confused on the difference between when the respondsibility for the childs safety ends for the PTS versus the public school.
Let me put in terms you can understand: It ends when the child goes home, from either place.
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If you take a look at how the NCES structures its data you will see that they break it down into “at school” and “away from school” and then “total” so that they capture the 24 hour periods. What we did is create a parallel to this with programs and reported on 24 hour periods. If a child is home from a program and dies then he is included in the NCES data group, if he is at a program he will be counted within the program group.
If you look at the data provided by say caica.org or isaccorp.org, they don’t differentiate between whether or not the child was attending the school portion of the program when the child died. So in order to compare apples to apples we compared the safety of 24 hour periods of children attending a program (TBS, RTC and Wilderness) to those who are not attending a program.
I think if we could attain the information it would be interesting to look at a subset of the 24 hour data and see how the safety in the classrooms in programs compare to those in the public sector. But to date that info isn’t available from the private side. As data collection improves over time we may be able to delineate it into small subsets and capture more detailed comparisons. Anytime this can be accomplished it leands itself to a freater awareness and assists with problem solving.
...
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If you take a look at how the NCES structures its data you will see that they break it down into “at school” and “away from school” and then “total” so that they capture the 24 hour periods. What we did is create a parallel to this with programs and reported on 24 hour periods. If a child is home from a program and dies then he is included in the NCES data group, if he is at a program he will be counted within the program group.
If you look at the data provided by say caica.org or isaccorp.org, they don’t differentiate between whether or not the child was attending the school portion of the program when the child died. So in order to compare apples to apples we compared the safety of 24 hour periods of children attending a program (TBS, RTC and Wilderness) to those who are not attending a program.
I think if we could attain the information it would be interesting to look at a subset of the 24 hour data and see how the safety in the classrooms in programs compare to those in the public sector. But to date that info isn’t available from the private side. As data collection improves over time we may be able to delineate it into small subsets and capture more detailed comparisons. Anytime this can be accomplished it leands itself to a freater awareness and assists with problem solving.
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Back peddaling again Cindy? Here's what you had to say just over a week ago,
Yes, its almost 60 kids a week die in our public school system. I would not suggest we all run out and start placing our kids in TBS’s based on this information. We need to realize that some programs are safer than others. These statistics are just a piece of the information we all need to know.
There you claimed that 60 kids died per week in our public school system. Now you're claiming that you're including the entire public sector. You can babbel all you want to about apples Cindy, the original question that got you to start posting your nonsensical numbers in the first place was comparing safety in the PTS versus that of public schools.
So answer the question then Cindy, are public schools safer then the PTS?
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Thewho wrote:
Yes, its almost 60 kids a week die in our public school system.
Meant to say:
Yes, its almost 60 kids a week die in the public sector.
I apologize for the confusion.
This was in response to a comparison of the public sector to the private sector (TBS, RTC,Wilderness programs)
Here is what the NCES reports in the public sector against a backdrop on the industry.
July 1, 2000 thru June 2001 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides , 2,959 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
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Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides , 2,868 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
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Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides , 2,846 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
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Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004 Children 8-18 years of age.
Public Sector: -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides , 2,722 Total (NCES, CDC)
Therapeutic Industry:
TBS (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249129) ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
Wilderness (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=249136&sid=9b8eb4a290172f9cf58ad39d2a5aea7f#249130) -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
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Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s.... All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable
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I KNEW if Robert went at Who long enough he'd start with that ridiculous and meaningless table again.
Nice going.
::)
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I KNEW if Robert went at Who long enough he'd start with that ridiculous and meaningless table again.
Nice going.
::)
:wall:
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Meant to say:
Yes, its almost 60 kids a week die in the public sector.
I apologize for the confusion.
What you meant to say? No Cindy, you've been caught back peddaling and don't see any way out of it.
So answer the question. Are kids safer in public schools than the PTS? That was the original question to begin with afterall.
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:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:
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Bruce, you manage to get thewho to post that ridiculous chart time and again with your postings. Why don’t you try answering your own question to start a discussion. You are almost as annoying as he is.
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I'll be honest here as I'm torn by a couple of things. On the one hand I don't want to admit that there is possibly any program that I'd publicly endorse.
On the other hand I'd be lying if I said that was the truth.
I'm gonna sleep on it for the night and just maybe tomorrow I'll post the information I have regarding this place for public consumption. Maybe yall can proove me wrong. I'd be happy if you could as then I could go back to saying all programs suck donkey cock.
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Bruce, you manage to get thewho to post that ridiculous chart time and again with your postings. Why don’t you try answering your own question to start a discussion. You are almost as annoying as he is.
Again, can't imagine who that is.
The more time passes the more truth is exposed about these places. Namely that they are all detrimental and abusive to kids. Cindy refuses to accept certain truths and only posts his nonsense numbers when he hears something he doesnt like. Not all that different then a child who puts his hand over his ears and shouts,
LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA
As more and more truth comes to light about how abusive and dangerous the PTS is Cindy will have more and more comments made over the past two years which he will be forced to back peddal on or state something along the lines of,
Meant to say:
Cindy hates being proven wrong, and he really hates being held accountable for his own comments. Eventually every statement hes made claiming to be fact will be proven to have been a lie and he'll have nothing left to say.
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Look, Devon, you seem like a nice enough guy and probably contribute and add value in your personal life. But I am here to help with the issues concerning the “Troubled Teen industry”, discuss the details with others who are looking to learn and grow, as I am, along with sharing my personal experiences. When you can demonstrate that you are willing to have an adult conversation with others here and are sincere in trying to discuss the issues and add value here then I will respond in kind.
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Look, everybody, I seem like a nice enough guy and probably don't contribute or add value in anyone's personal life. So I am here to troll the issues concerning the “Troubled Teen industry”, dispute and degrade the details of others who are looking to learn and grow, as I am not, along with ridiculing their personal experiences. When I can demonstrate that I am willing to have an adult conversation with others here and I'm sincere in trying to discuss the issues and add value here then you should respond.
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Cindy, this has been proven time and again. I've added far more on here then you ever could. All you add is entertainment value. The clown who doesnt know hes being laughed at. Again I did something to bring regulation and made life more difficult for child abusers in Georgia. Meanwhile you've done......oh that's right nothing. But hey, you can pretend you know my name right? Hey, why don't you claim I'm bi sexual again? Or if you get too lonely you can pretend to argue with me again whenever I'm not around. Face it Cindy, (or do you prefer Alan?) you're pathetic. You've contributed nothing except an laughable attempt to further the abuse of kids. Too bad you just arent smart enough to convince anyone of anything. As to your "personal experiences", you have none that relate to this field. Your daughter does, hence why she hates you.
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Bobbys back?!!!! WHUT?!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Cindy, this has been proven time and again.
Good. Then drop it.
I've added far more on here then you ever could.
Congratulations.
All you add is entertainment value. The clown who doesnt know hes being laughed at.
He adds no entertainment value and doesn't care that he's being laughed at. His goal is to derail threads and spread disinformation. He was somewhat contained with most people ignoring him, but since you've seen fit to come back (glad you're back but not happy you're doing this again, just like you did with whatshername) and start this stupid pissing match (I've done more than you have, neener neener) he's started HIS shit all over again. Thanks.
Again I did something to bring regulation and made life more difficult for child abusers in Georgia. Meanwhile you've done......oh that's right nothing. But hey, you can pretend you know my name right? Hey, why don't you claim I'm bi sexual again? Or if you get too lonely you can pretend to argue with me again whenever I'm not around.
Pissing match.
Face it Cindy, (or do you prefer Alan?) you're pathetic.
Wasn't that proven to be untrue?
You've contributed nothing except an laughable attempt to further the abuse of kids. Too bad you just arent smart enough to convince anyone of anything. As to your "personal experiences", you have none that relate to this field. Your daughter does, hence why she hates you.
Pissing match.
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RB to TheWho: I've added far more on here then you ever could.
Guest: Congratulations.
:D
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Cindy, this has been proven time and again.
Good. Then drop it.
I've added far more on here then you ever could.
Congratulations.
All you add is entertainment value. The clown who doesnt know hes being laughed at.
He adds no entertainment value and doesn't care that he's being laughed at. His goal is to derail threads and spread disinformation. He was somewhat contained with most people ignoring him, but since you've seen fit to come back (glad you're back but not happy you're doing this again, just like you did with whatshername) and start this stupid pissing match (I've done more than you have, neener neener) he's started HIS shit all over again. Thanks.
Again I did something to bring regulation and made life more difficult for child abusers in Georgia. Meanwhile you've done......oh that's right nothing. But hey, you can pretend you know my name right? Hey, why don't you claim I'm bi sexual again? Or if you get too lonely you can pretend to argue with me again whenever I'm not around.
Pissing match.
Face it Cindy, (or do you prefer Alan?) you're pathetic.
Wasn't that proven to be untrue?
You've contributed nothing except an laughable attempt to further the abuse of kids. Too bad you just arent smart enough to convince anyone of anything. As to your "personal experiences", you have none that relate to this field. Your daughter does, hence why she hates you.
Pissing match.
:blabla: :moon:
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What's your point?
:D :rasta: :moon: ;D
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He adds no entertainment value and doesn't care that he's being laughed at. His goal is to derail threads and spread disinformation. He was somewhat contained with most people ignoring him, but since you've seen fit to come back (glad you're back but not happy you're doing this again, just like you did with whatshername) and start this stupid pissing match (I've done more than you have, neener neener) he's started HIS shit all over again. Thanks.
Are you talking about Bullfrog? Shh? Cindy isnt much different then she is. Refusing to accept obvious realities because they go against what he is hoping to be true. I have no idea what Cindy's motivations are, Whether he just wants to derail threads or if he actually believes his own bullshit. Either way though he's counter productive to his own goals. Cindy makes a claim or refutes one of ours. He is then provided with evidence that proves our claim to be correct. He refuses to acknowledge it or accept it as fact, so more evidence is provided, which makes the point even clearer. He still refuses to accept it and provides his own counter point which is either never backed up at all, or uses sources that disagree with his claim entirely. Even further evidence is provided and Cindy still refuses to concede the point, he then declares victory and begins babbeling about something else. All while refusing to answer any question he feels damage his position, thus further ruining the credibility he thinks he has. While all of this is going on parents are coming to the site seeking information. Any misinformation they might have about these places being safe is immediatly removed because we've proven so many things time and time again just with Cindy alone. They're finding out the truth about how abusive these places are all because Cindy refuses to accept it. Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself, no different then Bullfrog.