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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 30, 2005, 12:10:00 PM

Title: New Article
Post by: Anonymous on November 30, 2005, 12:10:00 PM
Here is a new article in regards to the program:

http://www.pianofinders.com/InsidersView/theseed.htm (http://www.pianofinders.com/InsidersView/theseed.htm)
Title: New Article
Post by: JaLong on November 30, 2005, 12:24:00 PM
Thanks for the info. Brought back many memories, and most not so great.
Title: New Article
Post by: Anonymous on November 30, 2005, 12:43:00 PM
Powerful Stuff:


I remember a moment of horror, on the evening of my seventh or eighth day, when I realized that I was unable to "think" any longer. I had lost the ability to retreat into the sanctuary of my own mind and think things through, because I had grown so accustomed to being intruded upon without a moment's notice. It was as if I'd had a sealed off room in my head that had previously been accessible only to myself, and now even I could not enter. (I think I may known even then, in my heart of hearts, that I would regain access to this room at some point in my life, but it would be a long time, much longer than I could accept at age 14.)
Title: New Article
Post by: cleveland on November 30, 2005, 01:40:00 PM
Amazing article. I can't believe how well he remembered this...wow, I will have to read it again.
Title: New Article
Post by: marshall on November 30, 2005, 03:30:00 PM
Absolutely awesome! :nworthy: Great analysis of the program and I could relate  :lol: to nearly every point. Thanks...though reading that did bring back that sick, unsettled feeling of being back there.
Title: New Article
Post by: cleveland on December 02, 2005, 02:09:00 PM
Bump!

Everyone should read this. It's great!

http://www.pianofinders.com/InsidersView/theseed.htm (http://www.pianofinders.com/InsidersView/theseed.htm)

Read the other article too, from an adult perspective.
Title: New Article
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2005, 07:35:00 PM
Marc...my friend....You ROCK!
Title: New Article
Post by: marcwordsmith on December 02, 2005, 08:57:00 PM
Thank you Walter, Ja Long, Marshall, Greg, Stripe, Ginger, and anyone else who took the time to read my  account. I had written about the Seed a few times in my twenties. The online piece is a synthesis of those writings, with some editing and a little extra commentary to bring it up to date.

It means a lot to me that people on this web site have read it. I was going to announce it in this forum, but for some reason I hesitated. I'm glad though that people found it.

Ja Long, I'm sorry it brought back painful memories. I have read about some of the horrors you suffered in particular, and I want to say I'm deeply sorry for what you endured, and I marvel at your spirit. Marshall, I know what you mean by "sick, unsettled feeling." Well put.
Title: New Article
Post by: landyh on December 02, 2005, 11:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-02 17:57:00, marcwordsmith wrote:

"Thank you Walter, Ja Long, Marshall, Greg, Stripe, Ginger, and anyone else who took the time to read my  account. I had written about the Seed a few times in my twenties. The online piece is a synthesis of those writings, with some editing and a little extra commentary to bring it up to date.



It means a lot to me that people on this web site have read it. I was going to announce it in this forum, but for some reason I hesitated. I'm glad though that people found it.



Ja Long, I'm sorry it brought back painful memories. I have read about some of the horrors you suffered in particular, and I want to say I'm deeply sorry for what you endured, and I marvel at your spirit. Marshall, I know what you mean by "sick, unsettled feeling." Well put."

By now most of you here know and maybe even have some understanding of my conflicted views on The Seed. Reading some of the posts here and your story Marc has brought back some "sick and unsettled" feelings for me as well. Deeply buried ones that conflict on every level with my memories of the first time I was there. I only bring this up because no matter how accurate my depiction of some of the positive aspects of my first time around I am beginning to find here something of myself that was lost. Without this forum to which I don't think I found by accident those issues would have remained buried. While the digging itself is painful to question things as I thought they were I have some hope in that darkness cannot exist in light.

"Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lie's the peace of God"
From the introduction to:
A Course In Miracles
Title: New Article
Post by: TRUCKER on December 03, 2005, 06:39:00 AM
A good article! However, for every negative there is a positive. I am pretty sure that my 18 months at the mind controlling Seed was much better than the 20 years at florida's hotel at Raiford. What do ya think? Its to bad we all dont live in countries like singapore where programs like the Seed dont exist.Its was such a terrible thing! I really hate what the Seed did for me.I am so glad for this site because it reminds me how bad my life has been ruined because someone cared. :wink:

                       TRUCKER
Title: New Article
Post by: GregFL on December 03, 2005, 12:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-03 03:39:00, TRUCKER wrote:

"A good article! However, for every negative there is a positive. I am pretty sure that my 18 months at the mind controlling Seed was much better than the 20 years at florida's hotel at Raiford. What do ya think? Its to bad we all dont live in countries like singapore where programs like the Seed dont exist.Its was such a terrible thing! I really hate what the Seed did for me.I am so glad for this site because it reminds me how bad my life has been ruined because someone cared. :wink:



                       TRUCKER"


another Non sequitur.  Hmm.

Yes trucker, 18 months  at the seed is "better" than 20 years at raiford.

Also, cutting off my toe is better than losing my leg.  

Thanks for being Mr. Obvious!

hmm...lets look further..

Having recently spent some time in Singapore, yes  America is freer and a different style society than Singapore, but are you sure they don't have behavior modification programs?  What is the point here anyway? This is what we who debate call a straw-man Trucker.  Thought you might like to know that. :wink:

your last point...."I really hate what the Seed did for me.I am so glad for this site because it reminds me how bad my life has been ruined because someone cared."

Okay, the rest was window dressing and this is your point.

First, the site.  I assume when you say "I am so glad for this site because it reminds me how bad my life.."
That you are using sarcasm to ridicule 1) the site and 2) the people who post here.

Well, the site is voluntary and open, and the people who post here are doing so because they want to, including you. So, if the site "reminds" you of anything it is because of the free flow of information contained within, which again is voluntary.  Therefore, you are being sarcastic about the free flow of information.  

Hmm...maybe you should move to singapore?

The second point I have already covered in another thread.  Just because someone's adult life is not ruinous does not validate a childhood experience.  How lame is that reasoning?

Trucker, stick to more sound arguments please.
Title: New Article
Post by: GregFL on December 03, 2005, 12:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-02 20:50:00, landyh wrote:

 I only bring this up because no matter how accurate my depiction of some of the positive aspects of my first time around I am beginning to find here something of myself that was lost.



Then this site is dedicated to you Landy and all like you (us) who want/need to put this experience into proper focus.  

Just where does it belong in the history of our lives?  Just what really happened...negative, positive or neutral?  Were we really "saved" or were we conditioned to believe an urban myth, that we were dying? Did we need addiction treatment? Was this treatment secondary to other techniques used?  What were those techniques? Why were we seperated from TV and the news? Our families?   Were we "loved" or were we part of a group dynamic that used "love" as a binding force and a weapon of exclusion?  Was this "love" different than real world capital L love? Just where did these techniques come from, and where have they gone?  And on and on...the subject matter is captivating  and also sometimes a bit disturbing.

It is a fascinating journey thru self-realization that you are now a part of.  We are all glad you are here as well.
Title: New Article
Post by: FueLaw on December 03, 2005, 02:05:00 PM
The funny thing about Trucker  and other similar post is that even more than 30 years later they still do not realize that they were lied to in order to get them to enroll or enter the Seed. For example, take Trucker, he was arrested for a small ammount of controlled substances and goes to court and winds up in the Seed. He thinks he was facing 20 years in Raiford, not just any prison but "THE FLORIDA STATE PRISON".

Nothing could be further from the truth. He was probably a first offender and not facing anything more than probation. In Florida people are sentenced according to guidelines which rank offenses by their severity. Drug offenses are not very severe. However, in a worst case senario, a person with numerous prior convictions, could face alot of time in prison for somewhat minor offenses.

In order to scare young offenders judges will always tell them that they face alot of time in prison even though they know its not true. In the early to mid 70's, when courts were still sending young offenders to the Seed, they did it pre trial or as a condition of probation.

Pre Trial means that if person entered the Seed, or another drug rehab program, and completed it the charges against them were dismissed. The judges like this because it gives a chance for young offenders to straighten themselves out without having a criminal record. If a person quit or was kicked out of the Seed , while they were in  Pre trial, there case simply goes back in the hopper and continues as if it just started. In most cases they were sent to another program or given a different plea deal which was usually probation.  

If on probabtion the person would have to complete the program or risk being in violation of probation. If they violated they could be subject to county jail time, usually less than 1 year.

The threats, made regularly by staff, of being sent to some hardcore prisons where you would almost be certainly beaten and raped was part of the implied violence made by staff that we discussed in other threads.  

Finally, why Raiford ? Florida has many prison facilities. Why would the State Department of Corrections, send a young offender to a prison which houses death row and other harccore prisoners doing life for crimes like murder, rape, kidnapping ect..? They wouldn't because each prisoner is classified and sent to a prison based on their classificiation. Muderers dont usually wind up in the same cell as a young drug offender.

The use Raiford, as threat, was just part of the Seed dogma. Just like the come down sessions when people would say if you were on the streets....... all the is horrible stuff would happen to you. The use of Raiford by kids in the group was just a way of them building their egos or credibility in the group.

So even more than 30 years after the fact people like Trucker do not even realize that they were suckers not truckers.

Finally, to Mark that was a great article.
Title: New Article
Post by: landyh on December 03, 2005, 02:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-03 09:09:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-12-02 20:50:00, landyh wrote:


 I only bring this up because no matter how accurate my depiction of some of the positive aspects of my first time around I am beginning to find here something of myself that was lost.






Then this site is dedicated to you Landy and all like you (us) who want/need to put this experience into proper focus.  



Just where does it belong in the history of our lives?  Just what really happened...negative, positive or neutral?  Were we really "saved" or were we conditioned to believe an urban myth, that we were dying? Did we need addiction treatment? Was this treatment secondary to other techniques used?  What were those techniques? Why were we seperated from TV and the news? Our families?   Were we "loved" or were we part of a group dynamic that used "love" as a binding force and a weapon of exclusion?  Was this "love" different than real world capital L love? Just where did these techniques come from, and where have they gone?  And on and on...the subject matter is captivating  and also sometimes a bit disturbing.



It is a fascinating journey thru self-realization that you are now a part of.  We are all glad you are here as well.



"

Thanks Greg!
Title: New Article
Post by: Antigen on December 03, 2005, 03:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-02 20:50:00, landyh wrote:

While the digging itself is painful to question things as I thought they were I have some hope in that darkness cannot exist in light.


"There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds."--Lord Alfred Tennyson (I think?)

"Don't be skeered"--Schmeel

The Mann family was only one of a host of influential voices being raised against the traditional reading instructions in the most literate nation on earth.
John Taylor Gatto

Title: New Article
Post by: GregFL on December 03, 2005, 03:56:00 PM
Quote

The threats, made regularly by staff, of being sent to some hardcore prisons where you would almost be certainly beaten and raped was part of the implied violence made by staff that we discussed in other threads.  



Yep.  It was also an overt threat in St Pete if you had come in with drugs, or if you parents had found drugs, because they turned it over to the seed who threatened to give it to the police if you didn't comply.  The St Petersburg police chief was a seed parent and squarely in the "get straight or go to jail" camp.  With this squarely over your head,   Then you would be subjected to the "anal-rape prison" raps, discussions, and implied threats. In reality, the threat of doing serious time, even then, was more a scare tactic than anything else.

These frightening scare tactics did more to make people have the 'three day miracle' than anything else.  In reality, the 20 year in raiford scare was highly unlikely, unless you were sentenced to the seed for shooting someone in an armed robbery.

Anyone?
Title: New Article
Post by: Antigen on December 03, 2005, 04:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-03 03:39:00, TRUCKER wrote:

I am pretty sure that my 18 months at the mind controlling Seed was much better than the 20 years at florida's hotel at Raiford. What do ya think?

No doubt about it. But it's not a fair comparrison. In order to earn a spot in Raiford, you have to be convicted of a serious crime by a jury. And even then, you can appeal. There was no such screening process at the Seed. If you're parents or the courts were freaked out enough about you're having been suspected of smoking pot (or thinking about it) you got an intake "interview", whereupon all of their worst fears and more were confirmed by a highly skilled team of experts who just happened to be 16yo kids.

Quote
Its to bad we all dont live in countries like singapore where programs like the Seed dont exist.


Trucker, you can't be serious! Singapore is what I imagine the Seed would have been had Art managed to commandeer his own private island state.

The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power.
O'Brien, the apparatchik

Title: New Article
Post by: Antigen on December 03, 2005, 04:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-03 12:56:00, GregFL wrote:

These frightening scare tactics did more to make people have the 'three day miracle' than anything else. In reality, the 20 year in raiford scare was highly unlikely, unless you were sentenced to the seed for shooting someone in an armed robbery.

Anyone?


Well, in a sane world, yeah, it was just an idle threat; a really dirty trick to play on ignorant kids. But in St. Pete and, for a time, in Ft. Lauderdale? It was no threat.

Program friendly judges pulled all sorts of bogus shit on various people. You got arrested in another state, didn't you? I was extradited from Georgia to Florida for the "crime" of being a runaway. 17 was the default age of emancipation in Georgia and I was about 3 months from my 18th birthday. They tried kidnapping me from my bed, tried getting me arrested on bullshit allegations, then got some program friendly judge in Florida to sign a fucking extradition order. Never mind that they don't bother extraditing car thieves and only rarely go to the trouble for violent criminals. This judge evidently bought in hook, line and sinker to the lie that he was just bending the rules (what we quaintly call "laws") in order to save a kids life.

Crazy fucking times, man. And this is pretty much what Janet Rambo's much vaunted Drug Courts do day in and day out.

Our country has deliberately undertaken a great social and economic experimanet, noble in motive and far-reaching in purpose. [The Eighteenth Amendment, enacting Prohibition.]
Letter to Senator W.H. Borah
--Herbert Hoover (Feb 28, 1928)

Title: New Article
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 05:41:00 PM
actually, I was never arrested there, just "detained" and thrown in an adult jail for three days, driven to the airport under escort and flown to Tampa, where it got real weird from there.
Title: New Article
Post by: marshall on December 04, 2005, 04:46:00 AM
Quote

Its to bad we all dont live in countries like singapore where programs like the Seed dont exist.






-----quote
"Trucker, you can't be serious! Singapore is what I imagine the Seed would have been had Art managed to commandeer his own private island state."


---------

Took the words right out of my mouth, Ginger. Singapore itself is like one big Seed program in many ways. Internet censorhip, media censorhip, public whipping for spitting chewing gum on the sidewalk. I don't see where the government of Singapore would have any objection at all to seed-type programs...as long as they were sufficiently 'patriotic'.

http://www.newsintercom.org/index.php?itemid=280 (http://www.newsintercom.org/index.php?itemid=280)

"In a way, the world-view of the Party imposed itself most successfully on people incapable of understanding it. They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality, because they never fully grasped the enormity of what was demanded of them, and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening. By lack of understanding they remained sane. They simply swallowed everything, because it left no residue behind, just as a grain of corn will pass undigested through the body of a bird."

- George Orwell, 1984

Title: New Article
Post by: JaLong on December 10, 2005, 09:32:00 PM
Marc, thank you for your tender words. I don't come to this site that often anymore, so sorry this thank you is late getting to you. Sure I had some bad experiences in the seed, but not all that bad. Having my rapist right in front of my face for months being a staff memeber was not too cool. But as I said before,we got together many years later and he apologized whole heartely to me. All traumas or trials I have had in my past are healed, and I have grown to be the woman I am today because of them. Life does go on, and I choose not to dwell on the past.Again, Thank you Marc